The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-05-07 00:00:00

LTVERPOOL STANDARD.

In M evert :—But you c twee :it cannot be a ground
of distill iliticati and theref ire it is not competent for
any u,, rn ter 0' the council to lug- it as one.
Mr. PARKER to kn troin th- Town-clerk
wh I her the Orange Society was a leg it society, or whe-
ther it was nit.
Mr. THONIPSON thought it better to postpone the latter
Ref:
trri
magistrates
dtihntelci aa tu
stei o
thoe'ye
I tivit he c •rt iiiity should
not he the person to yore tor Mr. Ilarbords removal
because he b -kneed to the Or tege is'ocee y.
Mr. I'HOMPSON exiirees,d his regret that neither Mr.
Gladstone nor 'toy of the other magistrates in council hid
answered Mr. Harbord's question. He expected that the
magistriree, feeling tie position in which they had placed
the Watch Committee, would have given every informa-
tion in their power. That committee felt that they were
placed in a very stranee p isition by the proc.-edinge of the
magistrates, which hail taken place bellied their backs;
aed the only informatioe they could get, as to why the
proceedings were not communicated, was that the chair-
man of the committee. (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) was out
of remit —a reason which conveyed an imputation of a
grave nature on the deputy-chairman, Mr. Aspinall. He
could assure the magistrates that there was no-, lied never
had been, any wish on the part of the Watch Committee
to act otherwise than cordially with them. The proceed-
ft a
e ms
madegii tr aotne se,
supposehowever, t
theyhat
assumedwe
re nsoutedh
iliappearancegs o
si-
roes of acting with the Comm ttee. This sort of aliena-
tion amongst the two bodies might be prejtelicial to the
peace of the town. Quarrels hal already been springing
up between the members of the force in con-eqoence of
the reeeet eritichrOt of the magistrates; and inst inces
could be cited to shot the unsat.sfactory state of things,
caused by the interference of that body. It was on these
grounds that he hoped the magistrates in council, or some
one or their behalf, would offer seme etiplenation for their
proceedings, the causes which had led to ,hoaegtoceedinge,
and also the reasons why they had no, been croximniii=
cared to the Watch Committee. (Hear.) Before he sat
down, he wished to give the nialistrates the following
piece of information :—The committee had written to the
astrict Master of the °ranee Lo ages, for information
with regard to a procession in the town last month, which
he believed was the foundation of the proceedings of the
magistrates ; and the enswer was to the effect, that the
procession on Easter Monday was not a procession of the
Orange Seciety,—that such processions were diametri-
cally opposed to the rules of that society,—that there was
only one Orangeman in that procession, and that he had
since been suspended for having taken part therin. (Hear,
hear.)
The MAYOR said, that however much he might regret
that any act ut his, or any pr.ceedings of the magistrates,
should have filled tp receive the approbation of the Watch
Committee, or any portion of the Council, it was never-
napless very satisfactory to him to know, that whatever
had taken place was under the advice of the Town-Clerk.
It was also satisfactory to him to believe that the magis-
trates were only prompted by a sincere desire to preserve
the peace of the town : and he had further satisfaction of
believing, and indeed of knowing. thet what they had
done had met with the approbation of the Home Secre-
tars', who had been informed of every thing as it occurred,
and from whom a note had been received expressive of his
approval. With respect to a want of courtesy on the part
of the magistrates, he was sure that if the Watch Com-
mittee knew what transpired, they would not entertain
any such feeling for a single moment. He might be al-
lowed to state how it originated.
Mr, H. LAWRENCE thought that if it was to be dis-
cussed hereafter, it was better not to discuss it now.
Mr. HaRBORD said it was absolutely neeessety tie sub-
ject should be gone into, for at the t ery ime the Mayor's
comneuriication was received by the Watch Board ihat
Orangemen, were not to be appointed, the Mayor recent-
mended one himself. (A laugh.)
The MAYOR.—Not knowing it. of course; I wasn't
aware of it, I assure you. Tue whole of their proceed-
ings had their origin in the procession to which Mr.
Thompson has alluded. He bad been waited on by Mr.
Rushton, who made certain representations. The Town-
clerk was sent fer ; and they advised together. He (the
Mayor) suggested the propriety of communicating with
the Watch Committee at the first meeting. (Hear, bear.)
The object, however, they hart in view was simply that
the thing might be kept perfectly quiet—that no one
should know it, not even the bench of Magistrates.
However, the instructions given to Mr. Miller and Mr.
Whitty came before the Watch Committee • the thing
got out; and then the Magistrates were called together,
and the resolutions, already read, passed.
Mr. ASPINALL said, that the Town-Clerk, when asked
why he did nut recommend the Mayor to send for the
Watch Committee, said that he had not been sent fur
until everything was arranged by the Mayor and Mr.
Rushton.
The TOWN-CLERK assured Mr. Aspinall that his an.
swer had been wholly misunderstood, for that he had
never made any such statement.
The MAYOR thought the Town-Clerk must have been
misunderstood, for he had rung the bell for him the mo-
ment Mr. Rushton mentioned the nature of the business
upon which be had come to the Town-hall.
Mr. ASPINALL said there was no mistake; for that he
had put the question to the Town-clerk twice on Satur-
day last, and that the answer was, that everything had
been arranged by the Mayor and Mr. Rueliton before the
Mayor sent for his legal adviser. (Hear, hear.)
The TOWN-CLERK again assured the council that he
had been, in a most extraordinary manner, misunder-
stood. He had no hesitation at all in avowing that he
had been called into the Mayor's room at an early stage ;
that he found Mr. Rushton with the Mayor; and that the
representation respecting the Orangemen bad been pre-
viously made. Before he had taken any active part
in the matter, be thought it necessary to consult
with Mr. Shuttleworth, who concurred with him, that
Orangemen, as well as Ribbonmen, were unfit persons to
be members of the police force; and when he joined Mr.
Rushton and the Mayor, he found them in possession of
information that there was ground for believing that there
were sixty Orangemen in the police rorce. His inference
was, for he knew it not of his own knowledge, that Mr.He
Rushton had made that representation to the Mayor.
matter, arid said his wish was, that until
should proceedings
no repre-
sentationsthere be
had arrived at a proper stage,
C C mmittee, ne the object
then referred at length to the part he.litatdhe takenin tlie
made to the
at a proper period, they should
or a Ribbonma was a pro-
perof a man being an Orangeman httirlte t
t,
prepared, if the
him to
•
councilwa sgt to effectucnhdofeot the et
ohbi
ssutsadi
tines business
dismissal.
be
int
el e
was
informed
se
induced
di
that e;
be
Ribbonmen,decidedly
wo'fa
sogpui
ti ne
unfitth a t
foran
the force.
as well as a
Mr. ASPINALL.—Iou had better postpone that point
for the present.
Mr. Hensoare—The Town-Clerk came to that conclu-
sion before he ever saw the rules of the Orange Society.
(Hear, hear.)
The TOWN-CLERK. —I came to it from the general re-
presentations made of the society, and also from a full
knowledge of what took place regarding Orange Societies
in parliament in 1835.
Mr. TURNER.—Did the Town-Clerk advise the Mayor
and Mr. Rushton to issue the ori!er regarding Orangemen
in the force, and to act upon that order before ever it
went to the Watch Committee?
suchowwee rr
ea
of
fotti.tt)
the
often
placed The TOWN-CLERK, without immediately readying to
the question, went on to say that, according to the mu-
nicipal corporations act, the Watch Committee had the
appointment of the constables, and the power to frame
regulations as they should deem expedient for the preven-
tion of neglect, and that the constables were required to
obey the lawful commands of the justices. In cases of
disturbance the constables were under the complete order
and controul of the magistrates, without any right on the
part of the Watch Committee to interfere.
Mr. TURNER,—You say the police are bound to obey
the orders of the magistracy : are they not equally bound
to obey the orders of the Watch Committee ?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Not in cases of disturbance. He
thought that, as magistrates were often placed in situations
of great peril, they required to have a force under them
upon which they could rely ; and, believing it to be per-
fectly clear that the justices had the power to take into
consideration what constables should be dismissed, he
ttcehoren
ott if tehr
ee considered,
stipendiary i
anyl
oa_somrmtethariabsgees:rieastultittrinrrhieebtades:, which there was reason to believe
there were sixty Orangemen in the force, that the charac-
nlhanidaaiasemilntsc.bdgtotrhonignaeticoitpeatfindoekihtfirentecarghuenmiepndwlttoahosvevsriutobhija.le,tfcotjoriietsrh.
yone believed
jurisdiction
first could pursue
astdhi juris-
diction tnipootnhweteoro other,—that dismissal
the thing to a conclusion, and that, considering the pOsi-
whhaidcha mrigaghitsttroasteese
that
often placed, they, f
call
otiotolu'neldrisn;ely upon. It must be obvious ry man th .t
thosewere riots,t e
occur
whiacghain, it would be a source o! ob-
jection to the force if Orangemen were called to act against
Ribbonmen, and Ribbonmen against Or Under
oifcocanseioonfs,
those circumstances, he certainly lead -I.l9emen.
advised the Mayor
to pursue the course already detailed
of the situation in which magistrates concluded by reading from Mr. to the Council. He
Justice. Littledale an ac-
countplaced when called on to act •in cases of riot and dis-
turbance.
magistrates to dismiss, but that the re,. • o ution of the
Mayor and Mr. Rushton was considered an interference
with the placers of the Watch Committee.
MI. TURNER said no person doubtedottihueera
warmly of the zeal and attention manifested by the sepoonike
mittee in making their appointments to the force,
and.
said it was of the utmost consequence that good will should
exist between two such bodies as the magistracy and the
Watch Committee, so intimately interested as both were
in the maintenance of an active and efficient police.
The TOWN-CLERK said that if he thought tha resolu-
tions an interference with the rights and privileges of the
Watch Committee, he never could have advised such a
mode of proceeding; but he retained the opinion up to
the present moment, that there had not been any inter-
ference whatever.
Mr. BLAcKsußN:defended the magistrates, and thought
they were perfectly warranted in coming to the resolu-
tion in question.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE was of opinion that the Present
discussion would not be productive of any good, and that
a pitiful procession of thirty boys, with a cracked drum
and a yellow colour, was not sufficient to throw the town
into a ferment.
Mr. BIRKETT characterised the proceedings of the ma-
gistrates as a " tempest in a teapot."
Mr. HARBORD said he 111.c1 received the first intimation
of the magisterial proceedings from a poor Orangeman
who was going to be quietly dismissed, and who came
quietly
to his house at ten o'clock at night, In tell him
that he and others were to be quietly dismissed, and
then be (Mr. H.) quietly mentioned the fact to Watch
the
Committee, and they quietly took it up, and now it With
being quietly brought before the Council. (Hear, hear,
and great laughter.)
Mr. PARKER said that Mr. Thornhill could tell the

Council that questions of religion and politics were never
asked the candidates for situations in the free by any of
the members of the Watch Committee. If they were to
have tests of the kind, let the Test Acts be revived. The
committee never thought of putting such queries. If
they got men with characters for sobriety and honesty,
that was all they looked for and all that they considered
necessary. At the same time he did not agree with those
m,mbers of the Council who had been casting blame on
toe magistracy. He thought the magistracy deserved the
complimentary letter they had received from Sir James
Gr,h tm ; for what might not have been the result, if they
had overlooked the circumstance, or if they had not made
the wonderful discovery, that there was the large number
of seven poor Orangemen in the police force! (" Hear,"
and a laugh.) He had been informed that morning that
there was some treasonable correspondence found out by
the stipendiary magistrate (renewed laughter) ; and, un-
der these circumstances, the bench ought to be lauded,
instead of censured, for their great exertions in making
the discovery. Considerable stress had been laid on the
word " Orangemen" by Mr. Blackburn, and only once in
the course of his speech had that gentl .man mentioned
the word " Ribboumeo". Now, he (Mr. P.) thought
the question put to the Town-Clerk a very proper one—
namely, whether the Orange Society was a legal or an
illegal society ; and he certainly expected a decisive an-
swer ; but the Town-Clerk said. " No, I am not in a po-
sition to answer such a question." (Hear, hear.) Then
the Town-Clerk went into a long explanation, and mysti-
fied the nritter with SQW deep law (a laugh); but no
stra:ghtforward answer had been given to the important
qu:istion touching the legality or illegality of the society.
When political feeling ran so high, and when Orangemen
were considered as firebrands in the town, he certainly
thought it necessary to make a passing allusion to another
view of the subject. He contended that there were a
great many liepealers in the force; and Men who contri-
buted to the O'Connell and Repeal funds; nay, they had
magistrates who presided at certain meetings, and who
were themselves Repe'alers.
Mr. EVAigS.—Who are they?
Mr. PARKER.—Look at their actions.

Nr. THORNHILL was of opinion that if those discus•
sioii and interferences were to go on, the force, in a shor
tirn-!, would not be worth a single halfpenny.

._
Mr. LAce said, the real question was, whether it was
proper to have any man on the force who was a member
of any society except a mere benefit club. He was of
opinion it was the very ivorst thing; for they would find
that, in alt cases, the police force would be sue to serve
any other member of a secret society. He quite agreed
with the opinion of the magistrates, and he would say that
neither freemasons, oddfellows, or any other secret society
should they belong to. He would have no connexion with
any secret society. It was entirely incompatible with the
proper discharge of their duty. He thought the Mayor,
under the advice of the Town-clerk—for he must bear all
the Mayor's sins in this respect—had gone too far in coming
to the resolution. The Town-clerk had made some good
observations, and if the matter had involved a riot next
day, it would have perhaps been the right course; but
when three or four days did not signify, he thought all
the magistrates should have been called, and then a com-
munication sent to the Watch Committee. The magis-
trates had clearly the power—there was no doubt of that.
Mr. Li ORNBY denied that there were any Repeaters on
the magisterial bench.
After some further discussion,
Mr. AsettiA Le replied, and gave notice that he should
move at the next meeting, that Mr. J. B. Lloyd be a
member of the Watch Committee, in place of Mr. Bout-
flower, deceased. He said, that if the courtesy due to
the etch Committee had been shown to them, it would
have been found that an inquiry had been instituted, and
that the number of Orangemen, Ribbonmen, and Repeat-
ers in the force was so trifling as not to be worth the
trouble of noticing. He was glad to hear from Mr. Ter •
nrr that the stipendiary magistrate, and other individual
magistrates, had denied that any discounters was meant;
hut the proper course for them to pursue would have been
to send a letter, to the deputy chairman of the Watch
Committee, on the subject, as they had sent other letters.
This would have done away with a great deal of ill fe,l-
ins. and placed one party as well as the other ha a proper
position.
The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed.