The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-29 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

BRITISH MUSEUM.

The report of the Committee of Supply was then brought up.
On the question that the house do agree with the committee in
the resolution that a sum not exceeding £16,881 be, granted to
his Majesty to defray the expenses of the establishment at the
British Museum—
Mr. Consicri rose to object to the resolution. He saw no
reason why the sum of £If.,UW should be paid out of the gene-
'al taxes of the country for the sake of supporting the British
Museum; and concluded by moving that this report be recom-
mitted.
After a few observations from an unknown member, who
stated that, as he had given notice of a motion on the subject of
the British Museum, he was anxious to guard himself against
the supposition of taking the same view as the hon. member had
taken of its inutility, the report was agreed to.

.0011MiliEE OF SLPPLY%

Osi the question that the Speaker leave the chair,
Mr. HusiE rose to oppose the motion. When the house al-
tered the period at whic,, the financial year closed, and made it
terminate on the sth of April, instead of the sth of January, the
object of it was that the house might have the state of the fi-
nances for the year brought before it at as early a periodns pos-
sible, and should vote the estimates for the ensuing year before
the month of April. They were met that day, when the esti-
mates were about to expire, to vote them again without know-
ing
.anything of the state of the finances, and thus: they were
again in nearly the same situation with that they had been for
years past. Now, his opinion was that they should vote the es-
timates for five quarters instead of voting them for four, so that
they Would have one quarter to consider of the scale at which
they should fix the estimates in future. The alterations which
the house made some time ago had not benefitted the country
one jot. The houie had not considered the amount of its esta-
blishments, and did not know whether the income of the coun-
try would warrant the supplies which it was then about to vote.
The question whiCh he should now put to the house would be
simply this—were they met to give that relief to the people of
England which the people of England had a right to expect at
their hands? The noble lord (Althorp) would give them no
idea of his plan of finance. By the papers laid upon the table
last April, when the accounts were made up for the year, it ap-
peared that the excess of expenditure aboveincome for that ear
was £1,200,000; so that, with all our economy, we had that
year increased our debt by that very sum. It was therefore
evident that the country could receive no relief from taxation
unless the house redui:ed the charges upon the revenue to au
amount below that of the last year. He asked ministers—and
he inked them with some apprehensions—whether there was any
thing connected with the finance of this quarter which justified
thesis in anticipating that the surplus of this year would balance
the deficiency of last year? We could not go on any longer
taking off taxes and borrowing money to supply the chasm in
the revenue which thes;aking off. those taxes created. It' they
could not do this, what alternative had they? He had told the
noble lord that he was ready to wait till the 14th of April, when
the noble lord would be able to state the amount of the revenue
up to the sth of April, and to declare his intention as to the
alteration of our establishments, and to the removal or reduc-
tion of part of the taxes. if the noble lord would assent to
this plan, he would not object to Jet him take a vote of-credit for
the estimates for the next three months, so that in the-interval
the house might have time to consider what force it Would main-
tain both in the navy, in the army, and in the ordnance. The
noble lord would not, he understood, accede to that proposition;
but called upon the house to vote on that evening au establish-
ment of 27,0U0 men fOr the navy, and gave notice that he would
call upon it on Wednesday next to vote an establishment of
50,000 men for the army, and would, on a future day, call upon
it to vote an establishment for the ordnance on a similarly ex-
tensive scale. New, if the house voted that number of men for
the different military services of the state, it must also vote the
money to maintain them ; and the question, therefore, which
lion. members ought to put to themselves was this=" If we con-
sent to this vote, what means have we to force upon ministers
that reduction of establishments, and, as its consequence, that
reduction of taxation, which the country has a right to expect ?
The question which he wished to ask the house was this :
"Were we not at peace now ?" He believed from the speech
from the throne that we were at peace; we had at present no-
thing to fear either from external force or from internal commo-
tion—we were in a situation in which we ought to endeavour
to reach that reduced state of establishments and taxation, which
would be the best preparation for those increased exertions
which might be necessary at no distant day for the priltection
of the country. We were now keeping up war establishments,
which were inconsistent with the welfare and peace of the coun-
try. Successive governments had been promising, year after
year, to reduce the establishments, but they always found some
excuse for maintaining them at their present extravagant scale.
If Ireland had been governed by conciliation instead of coercion,
millions of money would have been saved to this country. The
only way to make ministers reduce the establishments was to
pass a resolution declaring that the house would insist upon an
extensive reduction of taxation. When Ministers had no longer
the means of suppOrting the. establishments they would find that
it was quite practicable to reduce them. The hon. member con-
cluded with moving, "That it is imperative upon this house to
demand a large reduction of taxation, as one of the best means
of relieving the country from its - present burdens. Secondly,
that it is expedient, before voting the naval and military estab-
lishments for the public service of the year, that this house
should be informed of the state of the finances of the country,
and whether any and what relief is to be afforded to the people
from the burden of taxation, in order that the establishments
may be suited thereto," .
Lord ALTHORP admitted that the object of the alteration
which had been made with respect to the ending of the financial
year was, that the estimates for the ensuing year should be voted
before the year commenced. That object had not been accom-
plished this year on account of the pressure of other business on
the attention of the house. It, however, never was in the contem-
plation of the government at the time that alteration was made
that a financial Statement should be made to Parliament until
the year had closed. It was the wish of the hon. member for
Middlesex that the house should be informed of the state of the

finances of the country before they voted the estimates of the
year—that was to say, the house should know how much they
had to expend before they decided upon expending anything.—
The principle upon whii:h a government ought to act was to cut
down the expenditure to the lowest possible amount, censistent7
ly with the interests of the country, and then to provide the
means of meeting the expenditure thus reduced. The principle
propounded in the hon. member's resolution was directly the
reverse of that, and therefore he felt it his duty to oppose the
adoption of it. The hon. member seemed to think that a re-
duction of taxation was the only mode by which a reduction. of
experiditureCotild be 'effected. 'that was an important auxiliary
to the reduction of expenditure, but there was another mode by
which that object could be effected, and that was by the improve-
ment of the revenue. The hon. meniber stated that on the sth
April last there was a deficiency of 1:1,240,000; but he forgot to add
that the estimates for last year exhibited a reduction 0ft2,300,0U0.
In the committee his right hon. friend would explain, he hoped
satisfactorily, the ground ou which he asked for the number of
men contained in the estimate. The question which the com-
mittee would have to decide was, whether the number of men
required by ministers for the service of the army and navy was
justified by the necessities of the state. The votes of members
must depend upon the case made out by ministers, and not on
the balance-sheet of the finances. The committee of supply
would not be justified in voting a single man more than was
necessary for either service, however flourishing the state of the
finances might appear to be. (Hear.)
Mr. ROBINSON said that whatever might have been the view
upon which the noble lord. acted with respect to the alteration
of the termination of the financial year, he was sure it was the
understanding of the house, at the time that alteration was de-
termined on, that it would enable the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer to submit a financial statement.to the house before they
were called upon to vote the estimates. (Hear.)
Mr. HEnallis said that though he could not vote with the
hon. member for Middlesex, he yet thought that, under the
circumstances, that hon. member had a right to call upon the
government for information on the subject of his motion. It
Was quite true that it was an admitted principle of financial
management to look to the exigencies of the state in the first
instance, without paying any regard to the means by which
those exigencies were to be supplied; and in the next place to
consider in what way to apply the revenue of the state, so as
that any unnecessary expenditure of the public money might
be avoided. Though he could not vote with the hon. member
for Middlesex, he yet thought he had shown some ground for
inducing the house to call on the noble lord for some state-
ment; but at the same time he (Mr. Herries) would not make
the re mission of taxation a motive for supporting such a demand.
Sir J. GRAHAM, in the first lace, would contend, though he
might differ from the hou. member with regard to the principles
by which the expenditure of the country ought to be regulated,
that the income should be made to meet the expenditure, and
not the expenditure first made to meet the income. Such had
always been his (Sir J. Graham's) opinion, and such, he be-
lieved, had been that of the hon. member, (Mr. Herries) if
credit could be placed on the financial statement made by the
hon. member before the finance committee in 1828, and which,
he (Sir J. Graham) could not help thinking the most luminous
and most able financial statement he had ever seen. With,
regard to the change of the financial year, he must confess that
the experiment might have been much mere satisfactory if it
had been called into fuller operation. It must, however, be
admitted to have'failed in some degree. Its failure might, how-
ever, be imputed to the fact of the attention of government
being in the beginning of the session entirely absorbed with
considerations regarding the state of Ireland, to which it was
their paramount duty to solicit the notice of the house, it they
valued. the safety of that portion of the empire. 'The hon. mem-
ber had, said that ministers might have convoked the Parlia-
ment earlier. That, however, was not in their power. 'they
had convened Parliament on the first day on which the writs
were returnable.

Sir I'. FREMANTLE said that a financial statement of the
ways and means was not wanted; all that was required was an
account of the expenditure of the last year, in order that it
might be seen whether the estimates were in conformity with
the expenditure.
Mr. D. -W. HARVEY said that ministers seemed determined
to keep all the information to themselves on the present subject
of inquiry. It was evident that a financial statement was not to
be wrung from ministers, and the house must therefore make up
its mind wait until they were pleased to afford it. He would
therefore recommend the house to wait a few days for the pro-
mised statement.
Mr. Hum!: said as a difference of opinion seemed to exist
with respect to the propriety of the period of introducing his
motion, and as he did not wish it to be pressed to a division
under any misapprehension of that kind, he would withdraw it.
The house. then having resolved itself into a committee of
supply,
Sir J. GRAHAM rose to propose the navy estimates. He
hardly, he observed, needed to impress upon the house the
importance of the subject he was about to submit to their con-
sideration, inasmuch as it was the first vote connected with the
great and expensive establishments of the country, which had
yet been brought before the new house of Parliament. The
country, he believed; looked forward to the occasion with great
anxiety, nor did his (Sir J. Graham's) solicitude fall short of
what ought to attach to an individual placed in the situation in
which he then stood. One of the grand points which the con-
stituencies of the' country had urged upon their representatives
was a strict attention to economy in all the expenses of the
state. (Hear, hear.) In this view he (Sir J. Graham) most
fully concurred, and he was- satisfied that the House of Com-
mons would, in all the questions of finance which would be sub-
mitted to it, act with due caution and deliberation in the work
of 'alteration or revision, in order that they might not compro-
mise the safety or hondur of the country. lie teit satisfied that
they would do nothing hastily or inconsistently with their duty
to secure the happiness of their country. He had no hesita-
tion in declaring that his Majesty's government had done, and
were determined to do, their utmost in promoting a reduction
of the expenditure in this as well as in other departments of
the public service, and it did appear to him that such reduc-
tions would be better effected through the direct instrumentality
of the executive than by the immectiate agency of that house,
acquainted as the executive must be with all the various details
upon the subject, and responsible as it was for the proper per-
formance of the duty that devolved upon it. The right hon.
hart. entered into the details of the income and. expenditure of
the country generally, and comparative statement of the navy
estimates for the years 1829, 30, and 31 ; the quantity of naval
stores and
,other matters connected with the civil department of
navy, and concluded by moving. " That it is the opinion of this
committee that 27,000 men, including marines, should be voted
for the service of the,navy for the 13 lunar months, ending the
31st of March, 1834."
Captain YORKE said that the statement he had formerly made
with regard to the want of sufficient stores at Portsmouth had
been made from ocular inspection ' • and that the stores of which
the right hon. baronet produced the return must have been
placed in some quarter where he could not see them. After
condemning the navy bill of' the right hon baronet of last ses-
sion, the gallant captain proceeded to condemn the appoint-
ment of Captain Symonds. That officer should not have been
appointed to an office which no naval person had ever filled
before. lie also condemned the conduct of the right hon.
baronet in refusing the command at Portsmouth to Sir H.
Neale because he had been returned to a seat in Parliament.
Such conduct was a direct interference with the constituency of
the country, and the right hon. baronet in adopting such a
principle was only acting upon the principles avowed by the
hon. member for Middlesex., He thought that the conduct of
government was unprecedented in the case he had alluded to,
and uncalled for, because the port-admiral had both a flag-ad-
miral and a superintendant under him. He concluded by
observing t,,bat he had avoided-to make much comment on the
estimates, because they were, in his Mind, highly satisfactory.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir J. PEOHELL made a few remarks which were not heard
in the gallery.
Sir E. CODRINGTON said he believed that the dock-yards
were in a greater state of efficiency at the present moment than
at any previous period. (Hear, hear.) With respect to pen-
sions, he mast observe that the clamour which was raised
against the pensions given to officers who had long and faith-
fully served their country in active service was most unjust;
and the more especially so when the larger amount of the
retiring incomes of those persons who had been connected with
the civil services of the country was considered. What was
greatly wanted was, that pensions should be farely bestowed,
arid only given to those who had earned them by their services.
In looking over the list of pensions and allowances, he found
it stated that the Hon G. A. C. Stapylton received £lOOO a-year
for 59 years of service; and Mr. John Jackson, Master-Attend-
dant at Plymouth,- £413 for 32 years of service. Ile knew
that both these gentlemen were in the service 55 years ago, and
he did not understand the reason why, in the one case, the
number of the years of service was increased; and in the other
deicreased. He also saw the name of Mr. Marshall, W. Clif-
ton, to which a pension of £C6O a-year was attached for 27 years
Of good service. He really did not believe that that gentleman
was old enough to have served that term ; and yet the £660 a
year which he received was pretty nearly £lOO a year more
than he (Sir E. Codrington) was entitled to, who had been
in the service of the country since 1765. (Hear, hear.) He
found that Miss Rosamond Croker also received out of the
public purie £3OO a year. (Hear, hear.) Now, he would state