The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1845-02-25 00:00:00

imperial Varliament.

HOUSE OF LORDS,-MONDAY

The EARL of DALlTousiu. in reply to Lord Brougham,
r .11 the decisions of the Railway

declined st;
Board wer,

ed by e

one of its me

o each ot

bens, even

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, in reply to a question
from Lord Beaumont, as to his intention of bringing in a
bill to redeem the ph
carry still further the n
with the pains and pen
were subject in c

had and
certainly

)ect to to
had done

escaped

had given last session, to
hen passed for doing away
„s to which Roman Catholics
tain cases, that he had done all that he
do. The measure of las
t, and he bad promised to refer t

ad doubtl

tssion was

ssioners for consideration. This he
ess when they should make their re-
vould find that the matter had not

ps then adjourned

HOUSE OF COMMON
Sir R. PEEL said, in reply to Mr. Lahouch?re, he did
set,lement on the sugar duties,
ley should be voted from year to

)NDAY

not pro

R. PEEL

a permar

eretotor

that there

said, in reply to Mr. Peter Borthwick,
lodation for the report that it was in-
of King Consort upon Prince

tended to confer t

L,rd HOWICK asked a question similar to that put in
the House of Peers by Lord Brougham, whether the five
members of the Railway Board had agr, ed in their deci-
were divisions ; also whether it
Board of Trade to lav before the

sions, or

was the int
house the

Sir G. CL

to the
length

ether there
tion of the

As of the corn

peting companies.
,r the first question ; and
on account of their great

)nd he replied " No

THE BUDGET
nt int() Cc

rs was read

Littee of Ways and Mean?,
continuing the Income-tax for

Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose, and having described the
income-tax as the most unequal, vexatious, and fraudu-
lent of imposts, expressed his surprise that it R. Peel
had not attempted to moderate its admitted defects in
some shape. He admitted that it was necessary to renew
With respect to the increased estimates he had
The abolition of the duties
approved of; that upon auc-

this tax

not much o'nj

tions he con6rnned as uncalled for; and ridiculed the
giving away £300,000, which nobody wished to be relieved
from. He complained that instead of the results of the
tariff, Sir Roben. Peel had given the house nothing but
general statements, and p

posed to go on much further
in the same line, and take the duties off four hundred arti-
cles. With respect to the proposed sugar duties, he ar-
gued against the prohibitory duties on slave-grown sugar,
and insisted that upon false principles the right hon. ba-
ronet was about to sacrifice revenue to the extent of about
£1,300,000, which would be unnecessary if a r

ere made on pro

tax might hay

e-adju,t-
-grounds.

been conti-

on cotton and

glass might have been reduced ; that the auction duties
should have been left untouched ; that many of the other
ieen left as they were, but, above all,
sptr; of monopoly and protection ought to have
ipple,.l with ; and he emphatically declared
hat protection was the bane of agriculture.
ax was to be rendered permanent, a select

that tt

K❑L nave }.

been boldly gra

As the income

should be

some i
Mr. It (

rtion of its inequ.

:ed to endeavour to get rid of

. .
UCK expressed his disappointment at the im-
asion of Lord J. Russell's speech. He him-

the word
tent of

idinent to the resolution, to leave out
ions, trades, and offices," with the in-
em to a tut calculated upon the money

e amount of incomes to be re-

3rties to be assessed

A discussion e
tion lamented th

he course or svhict

e oPno:

ce of the Income Tax, Vol ad

unty members complained
a direct manner, for agri-

; and the Chancel! u. of the Exchequer contended
cd grounds exi=ted, judging from the effects of the

in its power to de-

r the inc

L state(
lad des

e tax should be again renewed or

in replr, that the noble lord (Lor
ibed the income tax as the mo:

odious, the most vexatious, and unenual tax that ever was
imposed, and had surprised him (Sir R. Peel) much by

it to vote far it. He could not help,
when he perceived how strongly the noble lord condemned
the tax, feeling grateful for the compliment which he paid
him (Sir R. Peel) in supporting its imposition for three
years longer. he did not know whether the noble lord
was not influenced by the feeling, that should he be on
the mi.isterial benches some two or three years hence,
the £5,000,000, however derived, would be a very grate-
ful sum to deal with ; but he believed that the noble lord
really felt also that, in the circumstances of the country,
the continuance of the tax was calculated to prove ulti-
mately beneficial. He thus explained his silence on the
agricultural interest:—" I am sorry to hear statements
which implied that I was insensible to the distress that
prevailed among agriculturists in some parts of the coun-
try. It has been also observed that I said nothing in my
speech of Friday night on the subject of agricultural dis:-
tress ; but it seems to have been forgotten that, in a speech
made only two or three nights previously, I stated that I
believed in some parts of the country there existed great
agricultural distress, which was attributable to drought,
in the earlier part of the year, causing a failure of the hay
crop and the turnip crop ; and that I admitted that there
was therefor

hat he r

great local pressure. But I could not say
with truth that the distress among agriculturists was of a
general nature, because in Scotland, I believe, and Ire-
land, and also in the northern parts of England, the crops
are abundant. I doubt, therefore., in the existence of ge-
neral agricultural distress in this country. For that dis-
tress, when it exists, I feel the deepest sympathy; and I
wish that it was in my power to devise measures for its
effectual relief; but the house knows that there is no diffi-
culty greater than to devise measures for purely local
agricultural distress."

The committee divided—
For Mr. Roebuck's amendment
Against it

Majority

-208

Adjourned

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-TUESDAY

Mr. COWPER gave notice that, on the 4th of March, he
would move for leave to bring in a bill for the allotment
of field gardens to the poor.
Lord ASHLEY moved for leave to bring in a bill to re-
gulate the labour of children in the calico print-works of
Great Britain and Ireland. These children were chiefly
employed in the counties of Lancaster, Chester, and
Derby, in some parts of Scotland, and also in the neigh-
bourhood of Dublin. The ages at which they began to
work were four, five, six, nine, and ten years ; but he
would only claim the interference of parliament for child-
ren under thirteen years, as that was the age under which
children were protected by the Factory Act. The num-
ber of children employed in the calico print-works was
25,000. Many of those places of work were excellently
arranged and well ventilated ; but the great majority of
them were in a very deplorable, and indeed he might say,
detestable condition. The nominal hours of work were
in Lancashire, Cheshire, and Derbyshire twelve hours a-
day, but the actual hours of work varied from twelve to
sixteen hours, and even more. Night-work among these
young children was universal, so that in those factories
where it was not carried on it was considered as an excep-
tion from the general practice. These long hours excluded
the children, and particularly the female children, from
all opportunities of education. The first proposition,
therefore, he should make to the house was, the total abo-
lition of night-work for all females of whatever age, and
for all of both sexes under 12 years of age. With regard
to the reduction of the hours of labour for children under
13 years of age, the proposition which he had to make
was, that from and after the Ist October, 1816,—which
would allow nearly two years to expire betore his act came
into operation,—no children under 13 years of age should
work more than eight hours a day for six days in the week,
or more than twelve hours a day for alternate days in the
week. He further proposed that, in conformity with the
provisions of the Factory Act, two hours should be set
aside in each day for the education of those who worked
eight hours for six days in the week, and three hours on
alternate days for those who worked twelve hours for
three days in the week. He called upon the state to fulfil
its boast, and to show itself the pious parent of those un-
protected children. Such efforts would not be lost in the
eyes of God; and her children would speedily rise up,
and call her blessed.

Sir J. GRAHAM thought that, considering the great in-
crease of our population, and the great competition for
labour, it behoved Government to be cautious how it in-
terfered with any measure which would affect their physi-
cal condition, and so affect their means of labour. He
contended that the work allotted to the children in the
calico print works was necessary to the manufacture. He
bad great hesitation in consenting to the introduction of
this bill, and he reserved to himself the utmost latitude of
discretion as to his mode of dealing with it hereafter.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
Mr. T. De Nboll BE called the attention of the house to
the unsatisfactory and evasive character of the report of
the Secret Committee appointed last session to inquire
into the opening and detaining of letters at the Post-office.
He believed that this was a novel practice, and that the
merit of its invention was entirely due to Sir James Gra-
ham. He had likewise stated that his (Mr. Duncombe's)
own correspondence had been violated, and that his letters
bad been detained and opened on the authority of the right
lion, baronet. On that statement the committee was en-
tirely silent. He considered it to he a degradation for any
member of the House of Commons to know and feel that
he is such an object of suspicion as to warrant a Secretary
of State to insult him by opening his letters. He could
not conceive a greater personal insult either to the mem-
ber itself, or to the constituency which he had the honour
of representing. If his correspondence was not to be
free, he was not a fit representative for any constituency ;
and in the name of that constituency he called on the right
hon. baronet to justity, if he could, the opening of his
(Mr. Duncombe's) letters. That a member of the legis-
lature should ask the right hon. baronet whether he had
opened that members letter, and that he should find the
right hon. baronet, while he has the meanness or the
baseness to profit by that act, without the courage to
avow it.—[Hire Mr. Duncombe, who was loudly cheered
by the opposition, was called to order by the speaker, who
requested him to recall his observations, as they were of
too personal a character. He explained them as applied
to Sir James in his ministerial capacity, but added, "to
ii ose observations I adhere, so they must and shall re-

main."] He then proceeded to argue that this was an
additional reason why another inquiry should be institu-
ted, and concluded by demanding. it for the vindication of
his own character and for the satisfaction of hiss constitu-
ents.

Sir JAMES GRAHAM denied that any effort was made
by the government to suppress the inquiry into the pro-
ceedings of the Post. office. He had himself declared his

readiness, if released from his oath of office by his Sove-
reign, to disciose every order which he had issued in con-
nexion with the Post-office. He cared not one rush if
Mr. Duncombe thought fit to condemn him either upon
mere suspicion, or upon information collected he knew
n•lt how, and given by persons he knew not whom. He
contended that the committee had made a most satisfac-
tory report, and that it had completely followed up the
instructions of the house. A secret office, connected with
the Foreign Department of the Government, bad existed
for more than a century in the Post-office ; and he now
informed the house that it had been withdrawn from the
Post-office, and was no longer in existence, in consequence
of orders that had been issued by the Foreign-office.
Mr. SEI EIL asked why the charge had not been answered
that the letters of Mr. Duncombe, a member of that
house, and the representative of a large section of the me-
tropolis, had been opened and read by order of the Home-
office ?

Sir J. GRAHAM observed that, when he was interroga-
ted upon the subject last year, he had refused to answer
any question respecting it, unless her Majesty released
him from his oath of secrecy as a privy councillor, and
the house appointed a committee t..) examine and report
upon the whole matter. He should now adhere to the
course of proceeding which he had adopted last session,

and should reply to-the question of Mr. Sheil by stating
that he could not, consistently with his public duty, an-
.. . .

swer any further interrogatory.

Sir R. PEEL defended the report of the Committee of
Secrecy from the remarks which had been made to its dis-
credit. He insisted that there had been no miconduct
on the part of the executive government in the exercise of
this power of opening letters. if it was wrong to exercise
such power at all, the fault was not with the executivego-
vernrnent, but with the parliament which had thought fit
to arm it with such an instrument. He pressed, in con-
clusion. upon the house the propriety of not implying sus-
picion of their committee, and of the ministers whom that
committee had acquitted, by subjecting them to a second

The debate was adjourned to Thursday

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-WEDNESDAY

Lord SANDON presented a petition from members of
the Universal Peace Society, at Liverpool, against any in-

create of

After the resolution of Sir R. Peel, and Mr. Roebuck's
amendment, which adds to it these words. "That the
provisions of the said tax as to property should extend to
Ireland," had been read,
Mr. Ror.nucK commenced his observations by calling
on Sir Robert Peel to point out the reasons—for the onus
lay upon him—which induced him to deviate in the case
of Ireland from the rule which governed his conduct in
the case of England, Scotland, and Wales. He had said
that there was now a great exigency, and that that applied
equally to England and Ireland. If that were correct,
then the exigency should be met by the united means of
both kingdoms. He therefore called upon the right hon.
baronet to tax the realized capital of Ireland, as well as
that of England, or else to show that the circumstances
of Ireland were such as to satisfy him in deviating from
his general rule. He called also on the members of the
agricultural interest of England to pluck up a little cou-
rage, to cease from crawling on their bellies before the
minister, and to relieve their tenants, of whose distresses
they were always complaining, by extending this tax to the
realized capital of the sister country. He appealed like-
wise to the members of the mercantile interest for support
to his proposition, on the ground that it would enable
them to employ a greater amount of labour, and to pay a
higher rate of wages for it. Sir R. Peel had originally
refused to impose this tax on the land of Ireland, because
he bad increased the stamp duties in that country. Now,
stamps being chiefly used in t e transfer of property, fell
heaviest on the middling and lower classes; and therefore
he advised him to remit the stamp duties, which fell on
those classes, and to extend the operation of a tax which
would fall principally on the more opulent. At the pre-
sent moment the Irish landlord was receiving great ad-
vantage from the amount of tithe recently added to his
f estate. He had al-o no assessed taxes to pay. Why,

then, should he not submit to the imposition of the in-
come-tax ? When he proposed this amendment on a
former evening, Mr. Sheil advised him to read over Ed
mund Barke's speech on conciliation with America. He
knew the idea which was passing at the moment through
Mr. Sheil's mind—it was that of revolution ; it was that

Ireland was so turbulent that it would not submit to such
a tax. He was glad to see Mr. Shed attending in his
place in that house ; but the other Irish members—where
were they ? They had turned tail ; they had deserted
their post, and had pusillanimously shrunk from the battle-
field in that house, where they must know that their battle
must be fought, because from their own personal insigni-
ficance they could not command its attention. He adjured
Sir R. Peel, the agricultural and the mercantile interests,
not to sanction the extra taxation of England for the un-
taxed landlords of Ireland. He wondered how any land-
lord of that country cc,uld look an Englishman in the face
and talk of the advantages of a property-tax. It was a
little too bad. He would endeavour to remedy such a
state of things by imposing the property-tax, which they
deemed so advantageous, upon their shoulders: at the
same time he wished it to be understood that he would
exempt the income derived from the trade, commerce, and
professions of that country from its operation.
Mr. SHELL observed, that as Mr. Roebuck had always
expressed great solicitude for Ireland, he was almost in-
clined to say, " God save it from his friendship." After
stating the reasons which had induced several Irish mem-
bers to abstain from attending in their places in that
house, and after declaring, amid loud cheers, that he had
not felt it consistent with his duty to follow the example of
his absent friends, be addressed himself to the considera-
tion of the different proposals of Mr. Warburton and Mr.
Roebuck on the subject of the income and property-tax.
" Perpetuity," cried the one ; " Universality," cried the
other. " Eternity," said the voice from Kendal ; " In-
finity," retorted the voice from Bath. But Mr. Roebuck
also called for equality of taxation for Ireland and for
England ; and as a proof of what he meant by it, he pro-
posed to lay on England Schedule A and Schedule D ;
buton Ireland be would only impose Schedule A, and
would have out Schedule D. His scheme of equality,
therefore, fell at once to the ground. On a former occa-
sion he (Mr. Shiel) had recommended Mr. Roebuck to
read Burke's speech on conciliation with America; on the
present he would recommend him to read the speech of
the eloquent defender of the Canadas (Mr. Roebuck), in
which admirable precepts were laid down for the mode in
which England ought to govern that country—precepts
which he wished his learned friend would follow on the
present occasion. In his present amendment, however,
he had differed from every minister who had ever proposed
an income-tax. Neither Pitt, nor Fox, nor Percival, nor
the Earl of Liverpool, nor that fascinating financier Sir
Robert Peel, had ever proposed an income-tax for Ireland.
The absentees from Ireland already drained the country
of large sums; the crown-rents and quit-rents of Ireland
were also expended in the embellishment of London and
of Windsor Castle ; and Mr. Roebuck, with a knowledge
of both these facts before him, proposed to exhaust it still
more by draining from it the amount of the income-tax.
He believed it to be unjust to impose this tax upon Ire-
land—at any rate he knew it to be impolitic. With a full
recollection of the disturbance which Wood's half-pence
created in Ireland in the time of Swift, would they arm
Mr. O'Connell, a second Swift, with such an instrument
of agitation as the property-tax would prove in his hands ?
He verily believed that Colonel Conolly, if such a tax
were extended to Ireland, would himself turn repealer,
and take a Grey Porter view of the state of that country.
Ile warned them against any measure which would make
Catholicism, Protestantism, and Presbyterianism coalesce
against the British government in Ireland. Saving was
an equivalent to gain. Introduce better government into
Ireland, and you may reduce your army. Adapt your
institutions to Ireland, ins ead of adapting Ireland to
your institutions, and you w:11 gain perpetual peace.
Peace will gain wealth ; wealth will demand a greater
consumption of coffee, sugar, and other taxable commodi-
ties, and will throw open a new field for British manufac-
tures ; and the prosperity of Ireand will repay, with mag-
nificent usury, every effort you make for her improve-
ment.

After several other members had addressed the house,
Sir R. PEEL admitted that, on the first blush of the
question, justice would seem to require that the property-
tax should be extended to Ireland, if it were intended as
a perindnent tax. Now, in the year 1841 he had proposed
it not as a permanent, but as a temporary tax for three
years. He and the Chancellor of the Exchequer had then
calculated the proportion which the expense of levying it
for three years in Ireland would bear to its return to the
Exchequer; and had both come to the conclusion that
the imposition of new stamp duties in Ireland, and of in-
creased duties on Irish spirits, would bring a greater re-
venue into the Exchequer even than the property-tax, if
extended to Ireland. He then, in reply to an observation
of Mr. Hume, examined the proportional advantage which
Ireland and Great Britain would derive from the proposed
remission of duties. There was levied in the united
kingdom £700,000 by the duties on cotton wool. Ireland
only paid £114,000 of that sum. The great import of
cotton wool took place at present at Liverpool ; but he
trusted that the time would come ere long when Cork and
Waterford would have also a share in that import. Of the
auction duties Great Britain paid £270,000, Ireland only
£11,700. Of the glass duties Great Britain paid
.£574,000, Ireland only £5,7•17. These returns were suf-
ficient to prove beyond all dispute, that Great Britain
derived the chief advantage from his proposed remission
of taxation, and were, therefore, a refutation of the argu-
ment, that Ireland was bound to give us some return in
the shape of a property-tax for the benefits which we were
bestowing upon her. He was strongly in favour of the
original proposition submitted to the house. He had not
cheered Mr. Shed, when he denounced the extension of
the property-tax to Ireland as unjust, but when he de-
nounced it as impolitic. Impolitic he certainly did think
it ; for, when he looked at the present condition of that
country, the state of feeling within it, and the brighter
prospects which were dawning upon it from the diversion
of men's minds from political and religious differences to
the interests of their common country, he was prepared
to sat, if he were as.ked whether he thought that they
would have any compensation for relinquishing an income
of £lOO,OOO or £200,000. which they could not raise
seeridng danger, Relinquish
to you, and convince
twhiet hpoeurtu risking gaedvvialnatraidgeenpczipeii,
Ireland, that though you have here a predominant share
in the representation, you will not derive any benefit from
it for the purpose of imposing upon her a property-tax.
If they would take that course, he was sure that they
would be compensated by the grateful feelings of the Irish
people, who would no longer view them with hatred and
aversion, but with kindness and respect.