The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-08-18 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

case the address and situation in life of each subscriber was
affixed to his name. ( Hear, hear.) Their lordships would re-
collect that a petition had been Yesterday presented by a imble
and learned lord, which, it had been said, was signed by 9,500
inhabitants of Leicester, while the petition which he now pre-
sented was signed by 2,500 inhabitants of that town, whose
addresses were annexed to their respective signatures. Nov:,
according to the last return of the population of that .place,
there were 18,0(x0 male inhabitants;
.therefore their lordships
would see that it was quite impossible for the petition presented
yesterday to have been signed by 9,500 adult male inhabitants.
Hear, hear.) That number, added to 2,500 who had signed
the present petition, would form a total of. 12,000, and it was
very clear that the adult population could not amount to any
such number. Without entering into any observations on the
mode that had been-adopted to procure signatures, he would
leave it to their lordships to decide whether, on the Lace of the
business, some fraud had not been committed.
On the motion of Viscount Melbourne, the house resolved
itself into a committee of the whote house on the above hill.
The preamble was postponed.
The first clause, repealing all acts, charters, and customs in-
consistent with this act, was agreed to.
On the second, the interpretation clause, being read, • -
Lord LYNDHURST expressed his intention .of moving an'
amendment to this clause; but before doing so was desirous of
clearing himself from an imputation fixed upon by the noble
viscount (Melbourne). He had been represented as having
made it a matter of charge against the commissioners, that they
entertained particular political opinions. In what he had said
he had anxiously guarded himself against making* such an ac-
cusation.' He stated then and now, that any gentleman had an
undoubted right to hold the opinions the unbiassed dictates of
his mind led him to adopt; and that whether he was whig or
tory, was not a fair ground of accusation. But he certainly did
make a charge against the noble viscount, for having selected
one particular set of persons advocating one particular 'class' of
opinions, as the individuals the most proper to conduct this ins,
quire. (Heer.) His lordship then proceeded to review the,
evidence given at their lordships' bar. He regretted that his.
noble and learned friend (Lord Brougham) was not now pre-
' sent in his place. His noble and learned friend had said, that
the object of the evidence given at their lordships' bar was to
' convict these commissioners, and that in consequence some of
them had desired to be heard in answer to the charges which
had been brought against them. His noble and learned friend
had, however, taken on himself to speak for the whole of the
house; and to refuse these very parties to be heard, for, said his
noble •and learned' friend, in defence of the alleged culprits,
nothing could be more unjust, nothing could he more contrary
'to the first principles of justice, than to allow this evidence to
weigh against them. Such was the ingenious, the dexterous,
the adroit way in which the case of the commissioners bad been
put to their lordships hy his noble and learned friend. But
what was'the real state of the case? These commissioners were
the accusers, the paid accusers (hear, hear), of the corporations
of this c-crinitry.. They were the individuals who had preferred
the indictment, had made the charges—charges to be foll Owed
by disfranchisement and loss of property (hear, hear)--eagainst.
the corporations: The corporations therefore raise before their
lordships as defendants on that indictment, and they had
prayed to be heard by their counsel—to be permitted to adduce
evidence at the bar in refutation, and being heard, they had
succeeded in repelling and in refuting those charges. Vet it
was contended, contrary to all justice, that they were not to'
have the benefit of that refutation. (Hear, hear.) Another
course of observation had been followed, which was even still
more extravagant. It had last night been contended, and
justly contended, that when any fault or complaint was made
against the decision of a judge, it was usual to apply to the
judge to furnish the grounds upon which that decision had been
pronounced, and upon this principle it was contended that these
commissioners ought to have au opportunity in this instance of
supporting the decision at which they had arrived in framing
their report. The cases were, however, very dissimilar. The
noble viscount at the head of the government, well knew that
in reference to judicial decisions it was usual to apply to the
judge for his report of the nature of the case. In this instance
the application was unnecessary, for the report of the commis-
sioners was already furnished; the house had those Materials
which these gentlemen had thought were important, to the con-
sideration of this question. (Hear, beer.) The noble viscount
was also aware that this report was general, and did .not,
like a judge's report, contain the evidence upon which the
charge was sought to he maintained. (11-ear, hear.) That
evidence had been asked for, and that evidence had been
refused by his Majesty's government. (Hear, hear.) Such
was the extraordinary course pursued--,such was the live
of argument upon which it was encleavotteed to deprive the
corporations of those rights and of that property which had
heretofore ever been considered as inalienable. ( Hear, hear.)
The noble and learned lord concluded by moving the insertion
of the following clause :—" And whereas in divers cities, towns,
and boroughs the common lands and public stock of such cities,
towns, and boroughs, and the rents and profits thereof, have
been held and applied fur the particular benefit of the citizens,
freemen, and burgesses of the said cities, toe tie, and boroughs
respectively, or of certain of them, or of the widows or kindred
of them, or certain of them, and have not been applied to pub-
lic purposes, and it would be unjust to deprive such persons of
their rights of property, and to apply the same to other pur-
poses. Be it therefore enacted, that every persom who now is,
or hereafter may he, an inhabitant of any borough, and also
every person who has been admitted, or who might hereafter
have been admitted, a freeman or burgess of any borough, if
this act had riot been passed, or who now is, or hereafter may
he, the wife or widow, or son or daughter, of any freeman or
burgess, or who may have espoused, or may hereafter espouse,
the daughter or widow of any freeman or burgess, or who has
been or may hereafter be bound an apprentice, shall have and
enjoy, and be entitled to acquire and enjoy, the same share and
benefit of the lands, tenements, hereditaments, and of the rents
and profits thereof, and of the common lands and public stock
of any borough or body corporate, and of any lands, tenements,
and hereditaments, and any sum or sums of money, chattels,
securities for money, or other personal estate of which any per-
son or any body corporate may be seized or possessed, in Whole
or in part, for any charitable uses or trusts, and of any discharge
or exemption from any tolls or dues lawfully leaied; in whole,
or in part, by or to the use of any borough or body corporate, es
fully and effectually, and for such time and in such inauner, as
he or she by any statute, charter, by-law, or custom its force, at
the tithe of passing this act might or could have had acquired Or
enjoyed, in case this act had not been pasked.'!
isienunt M. esrsociteE referred to the observations Loed
Lyndhurst respecting tbepoliticalopinians of the commissioners,
and said that when the noble and learned lord was a young
member of the bar he would not like to have been called a
"whig," or "something mere than a whig." Did the tobleicsed
deny that he had admitted that the charge of being a whig had
been made against himself?
Lord LYNDHURST.—I never did admit it and there is not the
slightest foundation for it in fact.
Lord MEL BOURNE.—It had been so stated. He (Lord Mel-
bourne) however knew it was a calumny—knesi it to he false.
The noble and learned lord anticipated an unanimous support,
for his amendment, which went to save the rights of freemen,
in respect to corporate property, as they at present stood. He
could only say, that the anticipation of unanimity expressed by
the noble and learned lord would not be realized, for he (Lord
Melbourne) should most undoubtedly give his most decided
opposition to the amendment. (Hear, hear.) The noble and
learned lord admitted that the rights of freemen were preserved
by this bill to the existing individuals. If the bill was thought
defective in respect to the period within which it extended the
preservation of those rights, and if it was thought that a greater
regard would be had to justice by a further extensiou of the
period, to each an alteration of the bill he should not be disin-
clined to give his best consideration; but the amendment, which
would preserye in perpetuity rights which he believed to he pre-
judicial not only to the freemen themselves, but to the whOle
community, was a provision which should not be introduced
into the bill with his content and approbation. He held that
the property now enjoyed by freemen, especially time right of
common, —that the system under which one man enjoyed the
hay, another the aftermath,—was one which was prejudicial to
the due cultivation of the soil; and equally' prejudicial, as he
contended, to the freemen themselves. Freemen relied on this
property, and this state of general public charity had rendered
freemen in boroughs of this country inferior in rank, estate,
and property to other classes of the community. He felttosv
very inferior he must be to the noble and learned lord opposite
in discussing the nature of the law affecting these rights; but
he would ask the noble and learned lord why, of all mankind,
these freemen were to have a perpetuity? None of the property
of any of their lordships was inalienable; if any of their lord-
ships attempted by deed to create a perpetuity, time noble and
learned lord opposite, if sitting on the bench of justice, would
tear that deed in pieces. He repeated that these rights were
prejudicial to the country and to the freemen themselves. They
were equally prejudicial to the occupation and to the proper
cultivation of the land, and he could appeal to a noble lord
opposite who had introduceda bill for the very purpose of pre-
venting all these rights of common, and for promotin the
appropriation and division of common lands, whether such was
not the case. The fact was admitted by lawyers, statesmen, and
all writers on political economy. He contended that the bill
provided perfect security for all those rights at present in ex-
istence; that it committed no injustice, hut, on the contrary,
would effect the greatest advantage to the community ; and he,
for one, should give his negative to the introduction of this
clause. (Hear, hear.)
The Earl of H ADDINGTON expressed his surprise at hearing
the opinions contained in the speech of his noble friend (Lord
Milbourne ;) he was astonished, to hear from the first minister
of the crown notions expressed of so loose and dangerous a cha-
racter upon the subject of the rights of property. (Hear,
hear.) It was enough for him
,(the Earl of Haddington) that
this with which the house was now called upon to deal was pro-
, perty-,..1t was the property of the _lower classes, ftirehe most
part of them poor men, to whom these grants and rights of pro-
perty were of great importance. Ile knew well, from having !lad during eight years of his life a slight connexion with a
body of freemen possessing those rights that they regarded the,
possession of those rights and privileges with pride and satis-
faction. Ile begged to ask what there was in those feelings
which ought to call for their disfranchisement ? What was
there in the property which rendered it less worthy of attentionas
Tear, hear.) Was property to this great amount to
than the properly. of the richest individual in the u try?
hen thus
ealt with so lightly, and to be given up to the views of fast',(l.
inquirers and fanciful speculators on the question as to whether
certain rights of property were or were not advantageous to the
public in general ? ( Hear, hear.) The people thought oet
ofin tlhierisiene)eaagsauirues.t such,rhe doctrinesh ae sr he
edabt eeedn,
vaadlyuaendc
tehdeisne emu
wise, and it was necessary for their lordships to make aost'ana-
rigplapotsrt;
they held them to be advantageous, and who would deify that.
the right of grazing two or three cows upon a common was not
beneficial to the poor man ? He could scarcely recover himself
from the astonishment with which he heard the statement of his
noble friend opposite, that these lights were prejudicial both tothe parties enjoying them and to the community at large. .If
the principle advanced was to stand, he begged to ineuire who
was to.judge as to whom property was beneficial ? (Hear, hear.
)
Upon the whole of this matter he entirely concurred in what had'
been urged by his noble and learned friend. He thought it was
the duty of their lordships to stand forward in the breach a ainst
this attack ea the property of the poor (hear, hear;) egad he
also was of opinion that if the clause proposed was not intro-
duced the bill ought not to be permitted to pass into a law.
(Hear, hear.) No untried theories ought to induce the house
to sanction that which was neither more nor less than plunder
and spoliation. ( Hear, hear.)
The Duke of WELL INGTON addressed a few observations to
the house in support of the amendment, and in the course of his
speech regretted that Lord Melbourne had not thought tit to
reply to what he had said on the previous night instead of, the
present occasion.
Lord BsouGn Aid saw that the.reason why his noble friend bad
not answered the noble duke was, that he (Lord B.) had taken
upon himself that part of• the debate. (Cheers from the opposi-
tion.) And why should he not ? If his noble friend did not
repudiate his services why should noble lords opposite object to
them ? He could not have believed, if he had not heard it on
the testimony of those•who were incapable of misrepresenting
what occurred, the passage that hail taken place in his absence.
He had not come into the house early in the sittings of the
evening.
The Earl of WICKLOW.—At half-past seven o'clock.
Lord BROUGHAM.—And is this a breach •of parliamentary`
duty? (" Hear, hear," from Lord Wicklow.) Is this
an
impeachable offence ? (" Hear, hear," from Lord Wicklow.)
The noble earl saysethat coming in at half-past seven o'clock is
a breach of parliamentary duty !

The Earl of WICE tow.—l said no such thing.
Lord Bao UG IA A Nl.—That it is an impeachable offence.
The Earl 01. W ICKLOW.—I said nothing of the kind.
Lord BitoeuilA3l.—My lords, am I bound to be here from
sun-rise to sun-set ?. I was here this morning at the sitting-of
the house to do judicial business. If any other man in this
house, except the noble earl, will have the courage to get up and
say,t do nut attend to my duty in this house, I-will retire from
the house and plead guilty to the charge. (Great cheering.)
There is no man in, this house that attends one.fifth part so
much as 1 do. I have been here every day from the 13th of
February, at ten o'clock in the morning till the rising of the
',house. I was not lounging upon the seats last night, like some
1 noble lords—l took part in the debate, and I shall always do so
when it suits my convenience, I care not one jot whether my
doing so pleases noble lords or displeases them. Ido not do it
to please them, but to satisfy my own sense of duty. I did it
with infinite pain, because 1 was labouring under indisposition;
but I did it as au act of justice to the commissioners,- whose con-
duct had been impeached by speeches in the house, and at the
bar, in their absence, and when they had not the physical pos-
sibility of defending themselves. I came here to-day at a
quarter to eleven and remained till half-past five o'clock, when
I left to attend a society elsewhere, and I find on my returning
hither that I have been answered by my noble and learned friend
(Lyndhurst,) whom I have never refused to meet in fair fight,
face to face, in my life, though in all our conflicts, political and
professional, nothing for a moment has interfered with that
friendship which unites us personally. (" Hear," from Lord
Lyndhurst.) It is a very extraordinary thing that my noble
and learned friend could not just have attended to the noble
duke's doctrine, and have made his answer last night instead of
to-night—last-night, when it would have been appropriate to the
discussion. But no doubt the zeal of my noble and learned
friend in the cause of his clients, the corporations, made it in-
cumbent on him to treat him as the commissioners have been
treated—they were attacked in their absence, and I, their
de-
feader, have been replied to behind my back. Yes, my lords,
I'see that not only do a large majority of you think that it was
proper to attack, convict. and condemn the commissioners in
their absense, but that it was proper also to attack, convict, and
condemn me, the defender of those commissioners, in my ab-
sence. (Question, question.) Yes, and that one or two of you
cry "question !" when I undertake to repel this attack, from a
totalignorance of my nature, and of my habits of life; from a
foolish and ridiculous and absurd notion, that by crying "ques-
tion" they can put me down. Why, I have stood up against
half the House of Commons when they have cried "question"
for three quarters of an hour, and they coulditot put ine down.
Ccaalince pladios contempsi ; non twos pertimescam. I know what
it is to stand up against 300 men, pretending to be the repre-
sentatives of the people, who have attempted to drown the voice
of one man, who was their real friend and representative, and
they did not succeed; and do you think that one of you, by
crying ',question," can put me down ? (Order, order.)
i Mlle Burl of ItossLyrs spoke to order, but the noble earl was
wholly inandible in the gallery.
Lod I3aou H se(without leaving his seat) said, I have done.
The‘Earl of Riroty lamented the course, the debate had token,
and would confine himself entirely to the question before the
house. He could not conceive upon what principle of justice
thev.were galled upon to take away this property unless they
could establish a clear and intelligible ground that there was
some great public object to be gained by it, and which could
not be obtained without it. All that his noble friend had said
was, that this species of property was injurious to those who
held it, and injurious to the community; and then his noble
friend invoked the principles of political economy to sanction
this proposition. But, whatever speculative opinions his noble
friend might entertain, yet if those poormen told him that their
'interests were involved in the protection of these rights, he
would not consent to violate them. It was perfectly ludicrous
to argue a question of this kind upon such very inadequate and
unsubstantial grounds as those that had been advanced by. his
npble friend. He (Lord Ripon) had supported this bill with a
sincere and honest desire that it should pass into a law; but he
at the same time must support the clause proposed by the noble
and learned lord.

The Earl of RA DNOR did not believe that freemen valued this
property so highly as had been alleged, but those who had the
management of it wished to keep it. Of what value was this
property where the freenrn might at any time be increased, as
in Leicester, SOO shareholders in one year? It had been said
by a noble lord last night, that it was the duty of that house to
do that which it deemed right in spite of the popular opinion of
the house, and to leave the public afterwards to appreciate the
soundness of their views. Now, it certainly appeared to him
that the house had done much to lower itself in the popular es-
timation by the proceedings which it had adopted with respect
to this bill. If they did that which was just and honourable, he
tad no doubt but that ultimately the public would always give
them credit for it; in the present instance, however, he thought
the house had acted in a way which could only reflect discredit
upon them. He should certainly oppose the amendment of the
noble and learned lord.
Lord SEGRA VIC supported the amendment.
On a division the numbers were—F'or the amendment--
Contents..
Not contents 37

Majority for the amendment 93
Lord LYNDHURST then moved the following clause-" And
whereas the right of noting at the election of members of par-
liament was by the, act entitled, 'An act for amending the re-
presentation of the• people,' preserved to all persons who then
were or hereafter might become freemen or burgesses of any
borough represented in parliament under certain conditions
named in the act; be it therefore enacted, that whoever as a
burgess or freeman enjoys, or shall enjoy, by birth or servitude,
the right of voting at the election of a member of parliament,
I shall be entitled to enjoy such right as if this act had not been
passed." •
Viscount MELBovaNE considered the proposition of the no-
ble and learned lord replete with disadvantages and incon-
veniences, and that its adoption would be inconsistent with the
system which they were about to introduce. He should, there-
fore, oppose the clause:.
The Earl of HARRoWRY observed, that the bill proposed the
extinction of the lights of freemen. He had supported the last
clause•proposed by his.noble and learned friend, and ho should
support the present, because he considered the perpetuity of
those rights as one of the most valuable parts of tae constitution.
• The clause was agreed to without a division.
• Lord Lrismititisr proceeded to inove another 'cla,use, the
substande of which was that the town-clerk ()revery borough
should, on or before the 25th of Octobir next, make out a list of
all the freemen on the roll who had been admitted as bur-
gesses of such borough; and that when hereafter any claim of
admission should be made, and after examination, established,
that the name of the person making that successful claim
should be entered on the roll; and that the town-clerk shOuld
make out a copy of the roll to be open for inspection, without
expense, at all reasonable times; arid deliver copies of it, on
the payment of a reasonable remuneration, to any persons re-
quiring them.
Lord BROUGHAM said that the principle involved in this
clause had been-already discussed and decided upon; but he
would observe that it illustrated fully all the defects, without any
of the advantages of the hereditary principle. He objected en•
tirely to the arithmetical argument of his noble friend—that
Irish. questions were to be decided by the feelings of the majority
of huh members; English questions by the feeling's of the ma-
jority of English members; and Scotch questions by those of
Scotch members. He was sorry to find that his noble friend,
in his old age, was becoming a repealer; for certainly that prin-
ciple was essentially one of repeal, and one which would lead
to strange conclusions.
Lord LYNDHURST thought that the clauses which he proposed
would answer the purposes desired ; if they would not, he was
willing to amend than' an as to give effect completely to their
lordships' intentions.
Lord MELBOURNE asked if the noble lord wished to preserve
the rights of freemen for municipal purposes ?
Lord LYNDHURST said that he did not.
The clause was then inserted, and the interpretation clause
was agreed to.
On the clause which provides that the boundaries of parlia-
memary boroughs shall be the boundaries for municipal pur-
poses, and that the boundaries of others should be determined
by the Kin in council,
The Duke of WELLINGTON said that there was no part of the
bill which was more complained of, and which had excited more
alarm and discontent than this clause ; many portions of
boroughs not now included within the boundaries would be com-
pelled to pay the rates levied for municipal purposes, without
participating in the parliamentary privileges of the boroughs.
He,moved, as an amendment, " That the boundaries of boroughs
in schedules A and B should remain fixed as they now were
unless parliament should otherwise determine." ,
After a short conversation, the clause was agreed to.
Clause 5 was' postponed. Clause 6 and 7 were respectively
put and agreed to. The house resumed. The chairman reported
progress, and-obtained leave to sit again to-morrow.
Their lordships then adjourned at a quarter to twelve.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDA'Y.
- In the House of Commons, during the early titting, the
bankrupts' estate (Scotland) bill, the civil bill courts (Ireland)
bill, and the reform of parliament: (Scotland) bill, went through
committee, and the reports were ordered to be received to-day.
The letters patent bill was read a second time after some op-
position.
On the reassembling of the house in the evening, the third
reading of the militia staff reduction bill was carried, on a divi-
sion, by 109 to 9.
The motion for the discharge of Mr. Keith from custody was
agreed to.
The AT TORNEY-GENER AL, in answer to a question from Mr.
Herne, said that he had instituted proceedings against certain
parties reported to have beea of .bribery. at the, Ipswich
etettitb. • • - -
Mr. C. BULLXR withdrew his motion relative to the Mauri-
tins.
On the motion of Mr. Hume a series of resolutions, founded
on the report of the committee on printed papers, were agreed
to.
The report of the committee on the slave compensation act
was agreed to, and the bill read a third time.
The municipal corporations (Ireland) bill, and the peace pre-
servation (Ireland) bill, severally went through committee, aryl
the reports were ordered to be receieed to-day, (Friday.)

• —__
HOUSE OF LORDS, FRIDAY.
Lord EitoucHast moved the second reading of the education
and charities bill. The bill, after a short discussion, in the
course of which Lord Lyndhurst said he was by no means satis-
fied with its provisions, was read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on Monday, (yesterday.)
MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS' BILL.
Viscount MELBOURNE moved the order of the day for the
house resolving itself into a committee on the above bill.
The Bth clause—which allows occupiers of prelnises to be
rated to the relief of the poor, and which provides that where
an occupier, who has claimed to be put on every rate made for
the relief of the poor during the first three years after the passing
of this act, and who shall have on or before the last day of Au-
gust, in any of the said three years, tendered the full amount of
all such rates then due, such occupier shall be entitled to be en-
rolled as a burgess—having been read,
Lord LYNDHCRST said, be had no objection to the clause
itself in substance, but he would suagest one or two merely ver-
bal alterations. He did, however, object to the second proviso,
by Which persons might claim to be rated, though at the time
possessed of no property. It would be sufficient if at the end of
the third year they paid.up the amount due.
Viscount MinnoueNe defended the proviso. He thought it
was quite sufficient if before the expiration of the three years
the qualifying rate was paid. In supporting the clause as it
stood, he had no wish to offer any factious opposition to the bill
of the noble and learned lord. (Laughter.)
Lord LYNDHunsT read the proviso at length, and contended
that it 'ye a full answer to the observation of the noble vis-
dount. I'he clause was liable to very great objection, and might
be made the instrument of fraud. "The noble viscount has
called it my bill. I am sure it is not his bill for he does not ap-
pear to have read it. I move that the second proviso be struck
out."
After a few words from Lord Plunkett, Lord Melbourne, Lord
Whatneliffe, and Lord Ellenborough, the second proviso was
struck out, and the clause as amended was ordered to stand part
of the bill.
Clause 9 was agreed to without any observation.
On clause 10 being propo.sed by the Chairman,
Lord LYNDHURST IllOved,.thßt it be omitted, on the
,ground,
that by the Clause as it steed a party might fraudulently absent

himself from his occupancy, avoid the payment of. rates, and
yet, on returning to a new occupancy, after tw,, years' absence,
would be entitled to vote. Thus double votes would be created.
The clause, after a short discussion, was struck out.
Clause 11, atter a verbal amendment proposed by Lord
Lyndhurst, and a short desultory conversation, was agreed to
and orderedto stand part of the bill.
Clause 12, reserving to burgesses the rights of, &c., and ex-
emption from tolls, was on the motion of Lord Lyndhurst struck
out, on the ground that it was superseded by the clause intro-
duced by the noble and learned lord last night.
Ou clause 13, empowering the town councils to purchase
rights of common and exemption from tolls, being put,
Lord LYNDHURST moved that it be omitted, on the same
grounds as the previous clause had been struck out.
Viscount MELBOURNE thought the voluntary part of the
clause might be beneficially retained, the compulsory part being
Lorded. •
BROUGHAM concurred, but thought, with a view to con-
sidering and refmmiug the clause, it had better be postponed
for the present.
Lord LYNDHURST objected to a postponement, as the clause
could not by possibility be altered consistently with justice.
Clause 14 was agreed to without any discussion.
On clause 15, directing overseers to make out lists of persons
entitled to become burgesses, being put,
Lord LYNDHURST said that it was his intention to move an
amendment upon this clause and the next three or four which
succeeded it, and their lordships would scarcely understand
the nature of those amendments unless he offered a few
words in explanation of the object which he hatlin view in pro-
posing the amendments. He had already given his assent to
the principle of the burgess qualification, and with respect to it
he need not trouble their lordships. The house was aware that
no qualification beyond that of being a burgess was required by
the bill as it at present stood for a member of the town council.
It appeared to him that the house would act unwiselyeif it
adopted the principle, that any person paying the lowest possi-
ble amount of rates might thus become a member of the council
—of the governing body of the corporation, and thus disposing
of the property, of the corporation, controlling their charges,
and discharging all the important duties incident to that office.
(Hear.) This proposition he could not think proper; but, on
the contrary, he held that some qualification, at least to some
extent, ought to be required in the persons upon whom these
important trusts were to be conferred. A qualification was re-
quired by law for almost all the principal situations in which
any individual might be placed. A man could not be a member
of parliament without he possessed a certain qualification in es-
tate and fortune, with some certain exceptions; nefther could
an individual be appointed a justice of the peace unless he pos-
sessed a certain properry qualification; and he contended that
for these new offices created under this bill a pecuniary qualifi-
cation ought to be required. (Hear, hear.) It was ou this
principle that he meant to propose these amendments to their
lordships. He did not mean to say that,a pee.uniary qualifica-
tion would alone insure for these trusts andoffiCes men of intel-
rigence,nien of activity, and men of integrity;' but he maintained
that it would have a tendency to afford a security for the proper
discharge of the trust. Such security had ever heretofore been
required, and it ought to form a part of the provisions of this
bill. Then came the question as to the species of qualification.
One species of qualification adopted in this country was the
possession of a certain amount of real or personal property.
This was, however, a qualification which was easily evaded.
(Hear.) Every day's practice showed that it was a species of
qualification which could not be relied on. (Hear.) Another
species of qualification which had sometimes been resorted to
was that which consisted of the occupancy of a house of a cer-
tain value. To this species there were, however, two objections :
the first was the difficulty of ascertaining the value, and the
second the variance in the value of similar houses situated in
different towns, that was to say, the valiance between the de-.
scription of a £2O house in one town and a £2O house in another
town. A third class of qualification which sometimes suggested
itself was on the amount of rates paid; but to this system a dif-
ficuly presented itself from the circumstance, that in all places
the rating was not upon the full value of the tenement, so that
a qualification founded upon this basis would be of a very un-
certain character. Under these circumstances it had occurred
to him, that the best mode of making the qualification applica-
ble to all places would lie a qualification founded on the amount
of rate-paying with reference to each particular town or bo-
rough; that was to say, that the persons to be appointed upon•
the town council should be selected from those who were the
highest rate-payers in that town or borough. ' (Hear, hear.)
The principle which he meant to recommend was, that the
rate-payers of each borough should be divided into classes of
sixths of the whole body, and that out of the sixth or highest
class of rate-payers the selection of the members of the .council
should be made. He thought that on consideration their lord-
ships would see that this would be the best mode in which the
security of a qualification could be effected. With-this view he
meant now to propose an amendment on the present clause for
the purpose of practically carrying out tAeltrofilueet. The clause
as it at present stood directed the ove*ers to Make out lists of
persons entitled to •becoisre bureesse*, To make the bill con-
formable with the principles he had stated, it was necessary that
ofi'persons qualified to become councillors should be made
but alsts. ' Such would be the object of the amendment -44 e
should move on the present clause. (Hear.)
Lord BROUGHAM opposed this amendment. Although pro-
perty qualifications were considered necessary in England and
Ireland for a seat in parliament, they were not necessary in
Scotland, and yet the 53 members for Scotlandhe would say
there was not one of them who was not, taking the proportion
they bore in numbers to the remainder of the 658, a richer man
than the members for England and Ireland, though every one
of the latter swore to being worth £6OO or £3OO a year. It did
not follow that because a poor man might be' elected, that the
municipal constituencies would select beggars to hold office in
their boroughs. No one who knew anything of the privileges
of the peopleof England could for a moment believe that this
would be the case. The people of this country were, indeed,
too apt to look to the contents of mess' 13urses when judging of
their respectability, and never forgot that ingredient in their
estimate of the character of a respectable man. •
Lord MELBOURNE thought there were such strong objections
to the plan proposed, ih the minds, as he believed, of almost all
claws, that he had little difficulty in saying that nothing could
be more odious than it was likely to prove. He wished, how-
ever, not to let a moment pass without declaring his warns and
earnest anxiety that the bill should go nut of that house in such
a form as to render it acceptable elsewhere; and he was there-
fore very desirous that tio•amendments should be adopted by
their lordships calculated to produce a contrary result. Under
the influence of such a feeling. as that, he could not then refrain
from asking their lordships, had they well considered how the
amendment, if adopted, would act ? He did declare that he be-
lieved in his conscience the adoption of the amendment would
occasion the most serious discontents. Wh-at could be more
aristocratic than the declaration that none' ut the very highest
rated inhabitants should be eligible? Nothing could be more
odious, nothing more oligarchical, nothing snore alien, nothing
more hostile to the spirit of the British-constitution and the
feeling.of the. British people, than an enactment which created
an aristocracy of wealth, and which said, not that men should
have such or such an amount of property as a security to the
public, but that they should be the very richest in the place.
For all these reasons, then, it was his duty to state that the
amendment, if adopted, must prove fatal to the ultimate success
of the measure.

Lord LYNDHURST declared that he was extremely desirous of
contributing to render the measure one of wholesome regula-
tion of corporate bodies, but he • deemed it essential to that
wholesome regulation that somequalificationshould be required
from persons filling important trusts, administering justice, and
taxing their fellow-citizens. By the bill introduced by his noble
and learned friend two years ago, a qualification was required;
that bill bore upon the face of it every mark of having been
most carefully matured ; it was submitted to the consideration
of a noble lord then in the other house, it obviously underwent
many alterations, but nevertheless a high property qualification
was required. He did not forget it had been said that the prin-
ciple of qualification had never before been applied to corpo-
rations; he would maintain, on the contrary, that under the
old form it was implied, and the direct qualification was there-
fore not required. But he would request noble lords to remem-
ber the bill for regulating municipal corporations in Scotland;
there a £lO quaFfication was required, and by the poor law bill
a property oualification was likewise demanded. If he were
asked to assign a reason for fixing the qualification rather pro-
portionally than otherwise, he should say that he gave the pre-
ference to that mode, because a particulartamount of rate would
not apply in an equal degree to different places; be accordingly
adopted that mode as the most flexible. (Hear, hear.) It na•
turally contracted or extended itselfaccording to circumstances.
It should be recollected that the
proportion he adopted was
one-sixth ; had he taken one-fourth it would have reached the
£lO householders throughout the entire kingdom; a qualifica-
tion going so near to the most extensive could not be consider-
ed very narrow. It was in his opinion a large and extensive
qualification, and one which readily accommodated itself to the
circumstances of various corporations. Cases had certainly
been stated in which persons of respectability and character
might possibly be excluded, but the arguments founded upon
those cases applied with equal force to every species of property
qualification, for there was none of them that did not bear hard.
upon some clasi of persons. Before he sat down he wished to
observe, that he only mentioned one-sixth from a necessity of
fixing some amount, but it was perfectly competent to any
noble lord, in lieu of that, to propose a qualification more de-
finite, say of £l,OOO. Finally, he begged to declare; that he felt
fully as anxious as the noble viscount that the bill should be as
successful when returned to the other house, and he hoped it
would be received there, if not with absolute acceptance, at
least that it should be favourably entertained; it was a con-
summation most deeply to be wished, end one that he was most
anxious to obtain. .

, .
The..amembuctit proposed by. Lord Lknilliiirst trn fl a rnrrip
a majority of 81, the members being *Cu .its favour, and 39
against it.
After a few words from Lord Brougham, the Earl of Devon,
and Lord Lyndhurst, the clause as amended was then agreed
to, together with several others (up to•the 21st, ).in which it be-
came necessary to introduce some consequential alterations.
Clauses 22 and 23 were agreed to.
On clause 2t .

Lord WH ARN C L WI? rose to move an amendment, which he
had no doubt would occupy their lordships fur three or four
hours 'in discussion.

Lord LYNDHURST said, as that was so, he thought the house
had better resume. Although the committee upon this bill had
occupied 15 nights in the other house of parliament, he could
pledge himself that it would not occupy more than four in their
lordships' house.
Lord BROUGHAM asked if the noble and learned lord meant
four nights including the two they had already been in commit-
tee, and that therefore they would get through the bill on Tues-
day night?
Lord LYNDHURST said—Yes.
Lord BROUGHAM agreed with the noble and learned lord, be.
cause he thought they had alteady got over the most difficult
parts of the bill, and under such circumstances be could have
no objection that the house should resume.
The Chairman then obtained leave to sit again, and the house
resumed.
Adjourned at half-past eleven o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FnInAT

The Speaker took the chair at a quarter to four.
Mr. Tapps took the oaths and his seat.
DISCHARGE OF MR. KEITH.
Thomas Moore Keith having been brought to the bar in the
custody of the Sergeant-at-Arms, and having been reprimanded
by the Speaker, was discharged.

THE BUDGET.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER claimed the indulgence
of the house while he brought forward the state of the finances
of the country. He commenced by an enumeration of the taxes
taken off since the peace, and the further reductions made in
the committee of supply in the amounts of various estimates.
After enumerating the expenses to be provided for by the trea-
sury, which other Chancellors of the Exchequer hat) not been
called upon to pay:—viz., the fire of the two houses of pal ha-
meat; the fire at the Dublin docks; the grant to the Poles; the
revising barristers; the relief of the county rates; purchases of
works of art ; Danish claims; education of slaves, and the hur-
ricane in Dominica—making in all £400,000. He calculated
the Income at 43,550,000
Expenditure 44,715,000

Surplus revenue.. 835,000
But this surplus he expected would crumble away by the opera-
tion of the "West India ioan, which would leave a surplus of

AUGUST IS, 1835

from 150 to £200,000 only. The right hon. gentleman detailed
at great length the exports of various manufactures, the con-
sumption of oils, tobacco, spirits, and ether articles; the num-
ber of depositors and the amounts deposited in savings banks,
and of bankrupts and insolvent debtors, for the last live years,
to shew. the increasing prosperity of the country. " The house
would not and ought not to expect him to propose any reduction
of taxation which was inconsistent with the maintenance of
public credit. If popularity was to be earned by pursuing that
course, be would never earn it. Without, however, incurring
the danger to which he had alluded, there were two or three
items of taxation which might be reduced. At the early part
of the session a great number of petitions were presented by
the right hon. gentleman whom he saw opposite, praying for
the reduction of the additional duty imposed last year on spirit
licenses, and his hon. friend the member for Exeter had been
induced at his request to postpone a notice which he had given
upon the subject. The duty in question was proposed by Lord
Althorp, and was approved of by the whole house, and he be-
lieved that it was the only instance of a tax haring been adopted •
in the House of Commons without any opposition. Lord Al-
thorp was cheered when he announced the tax He (Mr. Rice)
approved of the principle of the tax, and he proposed to make
an alteration with respect to it only on account of the inequa-
lity of its operation. The committee should clearly understand
that he proposed to deal only with the increased duty estab-
lished by .Lord Althorp, which amounted to fifty per cent.
This increi6ed duty operated very oppressively upon those pub-
licans whose consumption of spirits was very small compared
with their consumption of malt liquor. It was for the benefit of
that class, and that only, that he was about to propose an alter-
ation in the duty. He could not flatter hon. members that the
keepers of great inns and other establishments would partici-
pate in the relief about to be afforded to their less opulent bre-
thren. His proposition was, that persons might take out a- li-
cense which would authorize them to sell not more than fifty
gallons of spirit, and for that license they would pay a reduced
duty. (ileac.) The loss which the revenue would sustain from
this alteratiou, he calculated at £40,000. This was exactly the
same proposition which he would have urged upon the right
boo. baronet the member for. Tamworthif he had.continuatin
office. ( Murmurs.) He proposed to make. another reduction
in the duty imposed upon a branch of our manufactures which
was capable of great extension—he meant` flint glass. (Hear.)
The house must be aware how many motives existed to
induce a minister to propose a reduction of the duty on
that article. In the first place, it was well known that
there was a very great smuggling trade carried on in glass.
ThiiP was inevitable whilst the duty was fid. per lb., and the
drawback to allow for waste was 7d. per lb., (so the right hon.
gentleman said.) He believed that the great hulk of the glass
exported, and for which a drawback of 7d. per lb. was received,
paid no duty whatever. Thus the profits of the fair trader were
carried off by the smuggler, and' besides the evil of smuggling
in itself, it inevitably led to the corruption of the revenue offi-
cers. The tax also operated injuriously by prevent* the em-
ployment of workmen, because it applied more to the cutting
of glass then any other branch of the manufactime, and manu—
facturers did not like to run the risk of losing their capital. He
believed that the duty prevented Many beautiful articles front
being manufactured and exported. In this case he thought he
might make a reduction of the duty without any loss being ulti- •
matelv sustained by the revenue thereby, though there might
be a lOss during the next year. He proposed to reduce the duty
from 6d. to 2d., and he anticipated from that alteration a great
increase of consumption, both in the home and foreign market.
(Hear, hear.) The reduction in the drawback would be in tie
same proportion as the reduction of the duty. The revenue at
present derived from the duty was £233,317, and the amount
paid 'for drawback was £85,225, leaving 4148,092 as the net
amount of duty. The present loss to the revenue, by the reduc-
tion of two-thirds of that sum, would be somewhat less than
£100,000; but as he had no doubt that the consumption would
immediately increase, he calculated the loss to the Exchequer
durinw the next year at not more than between 1:60,000 and
£70,000, which deficiency would be entirely supplied by in-
creased consumption in succeeding years. There was another
point to which he wished to direct the attention of the house, a
reduction which he had long been anxious to effect, affecting as
it did a class of the community in Ireland who would be greatly
benefited by its removal. The continuance of the tax impeded
very much the course of justice in that country, and the reduc-
tion he meant to propose was, the removal of the stamp duty on
awards for sums below a certain amount. It was most im-
portant to encourage in that country, the practice of settling
disputes by awards and arbitrations. £5OO, as we understood,
would be lost. to the revenue by this reduction, but that was not
much. Perhaps this reduction might hereafter be extended to
England, but the necessity of the case was much stronger in
Ireland than it could be in England. _ There was also some dif-
ference between the condition of the lieu countries; however, he
would direct his best attention to the subject. He had but a few
more words to say. He wished to state that neither on this nor
on any other occasion did he wish, while be stood up for the
maintenance of the national faith, to suggest for a moment any
faltering, any fidling back in the great workof economy. (Hear.)
They might be enabled to go further afterwards, and he had
shown how great a reduction had been made already. Even in
the collection of the revenue no less a sum had been saved since
the year 1820 than £626,362. This was a larger reduction than
,the hon. member for Middlesex himself contemplated as possible.
Mind, he would not say that reduction could not be carried fur-
ther, but the hon. member, in his memorable speech made in
1817, stated, the possible amount that could be reduced below
the reductiolrthat was actually made. He was sure, however,
his hon. friend, The member for Middlesex, knew that be would
carry reduction as far as it was possible. Witkrespect to the
continuance of sinecures, upon which so many observations had
been made, there would, besides those at present in eXistonte,
soon be left no trace orshadow of a sinecure office in Eng-
land, or her dependencies, and even with subsisting sinecures a
great diminution had taken place. There were, in 1810,
sinecures to the amount of £191,000 unprovided for by abolition,
and in 1834 they only amounted to £17,000. Then came pen-
sions, on which head, by natural and legitimate means, a sa.ving
of £16,000, as we understood the right, hon. gentleman, bad
been effected. He thanked the committee for the indulgence
which it had shown him. (Hear, hear.) He thought the re-
sult of the whole would be satisfactory to the public, inspired
as he was with the assurance that the general resources of the
country, so far from being diminished, were in a very flourish-
ing condition. 'The good results that must follow on the main-
tenance of the national' honour had been most satisfactorily •
established in the negotiation of .the last-loan, whieh exhibited
a practical proof that thegredit of tbie coontry moseet on higher
gronnds than that of any other. (Cheers.)' Let the terms on
which we borrowed money be compared with those granted to
any foreign country, and then judge, not of the economy of the
finance minister, but of the resources of the country. (Hear.
hear.)
Mr. GOuLnunN was bound to state that he had listened vith
the greatest attention to Theright hon. gentletrtan and he was
bound to say that the result was satisfactory: always,
when he had occasion to address himself to to the, house-on this
subject, held a high tone as to the resources of the country.—
He approved of the right hon. gentleman's not attempting any
considerable reduction at the present moment, but he must say
that the reductions which had taken plaie were more regulations
for trade than actual reductions. The prosperity of the coun-
try, he agreed with the right hon. gentleman in thinking, was
certainly general, but the agricultural interest was in a states of
great depression, and he hoped that it would obtain a full shale
of the attention of the right hon. gentleman.
Mr. Roetitce said that the statement of the right hon. gen-
tleman was anything but satisfacbily, and the fact of his having
carefully excluded from his speech all reference to the taxes-on
.knowledge proved that he wished to continue those odious im-
posts, and thereby exClUde the people from the attainment of
that information which they were so desirous to procure upon
cheap and accessible terms.
Mr. S. RICE observed that the taxes to which the hon. mem-
ber for Bath had alluded did not form any part of his financial
statement, and therefore the hon. and learned gentleman need
not be surprised at his having omitted any mention of them.
There was at present on the orders a notice of Motion 13 bring
the subject of the tax on newspaperS before the house, and he
could only say that when that question was brought forward he
should be quite ready to discuss it, and if any satisfactory ar-
rangement could be made, he for one would not throw any
impediment in the way. The house would recollect, however.
that when a propose] was made to reduce the duty on news-
papers, it was declared that unless the whole tax was taken 'off,
any partial reduction would be worse than nothing. In short,
it was, said that the tax not only upon newspapers, but upon
paper and advertisements, must be immediately removed, as
nothing short of that concession would give satiefiktion to the
advocates of cheap knowledge. Now, he believed that these
taxes put together would amount to about E 1,353,000, and sup-
posing that he had a surplus of £450,000, could any man sup-
pose that he would be justified in coming down to the house
with such a proposal, and if he had, would the House of Com-
mons have sanctioned so large a reduction of taxation with so
small a surplus of revenue to meet it? He hoped the house
would at some future time be disposed to consider the whole
question of the stamps on newspapers. but until that period
should arrive he could not consider the question in any other
light than 'attone which was open to the opinion of the house.
(Hear.) He..begged to inform the hon. member for Cumber-
land, who had alluded to a revision of the duty on inferior bar-
ley, that the subject had 'not -escaped his observation, but et.
present he feared it would not be practicable to carry the wish
of the hon. member into effect.
_ _

Mr. H. BULWAR approved generally of the statement made
by the right hon. gentleman.
The resolutions were then agreed to, and the house havillg
resumed, the report was ordered to be brought up on Munday
next.—Adjohrned.