The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-08-21 00:00:00

IMPRISONMENT FOR DEBT BILL.

Lord BaouGHAM called the attention of the house to this bill.
He detailed the great care and consideration' with which it had
been discussed and prepared in the House of Commons, and
trusted their lordships would throw no obstacle in the way of
converting the bill into law. '

Lord.:Cyzenuvasr admitted the importance of the bill—and
that it had undergone great discussion and examination in the
other hOuse Of parliament, but that was a reason why it should
undergo great discussion and examination in their lordships'
house. It was quite impossible unless their lordships were pre-
pared to sit six weeks longer--(hear, hear)—to give it the con-
sideratiota, which is; required iu this session.
Lord FioiNu,uti reinipded their lordships that this bill applied
the principle of the bankrupt laws to every acre of land in the
country. The onlinissioners named in the act could have
power not only over the property but the persons of their lord-
ships. (Hear, bear.) He hoped their lordships would let the
bill be printed and take it with them into the country, in order
that they might be acquainted with its provisions against the
next session of parliament.
Lord BeouGHast lamented that the noble lord had attempted
to stigmatize the bill by a premature advertisement against it.
He would not pledge himself to abstain from proceeding with
this bill, nor would he state how he would proceed until he had
taken time for consideration.

After a few words from Lord AsuatetTore the conversation
dropped.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE laid upon the table, by com-
mand of his Majesty, an order in council declaring that an ade-
quate provision had been made by law in the colons- of Honduras
to give efficiency to the act of the imperial parliament for the
abolition of slavery. He then gave notice that he should to-
morrow move the second reading of a bill for the more effectual
prevention •of disturbances in Ireland. If any noble lord ob-
jected to it, be would not press the bill.
The tea duties bill went through committee, was reported,
and ordered to be read a third time to-morrow.
The literary publications bill and the turnpike roads (Ireland)
bill also went through committee.
The Earl of HA DOINGTON, on the order of the day for going
into committee on the corporations bill being tnoven, wished to
snake a few observations. It would be remembered that three
or four times during the discussions on this bill the learned lord
opposite (Brougham) had, with good-hurnoured taunts and cour-
teous satire, referred to the triumphant manner in which he had
carried the Scotch burghs reform bill two years ago. The bill
had passed all its stages when only thirty peers were present.
He (the Earl of Haddington) and a friend of his; the Marquis
of Bute, had suggested, that as his Majesty's then government
had issued a commission of inquiry into the state of these cor-
porations, it would be' better to defer legislation until they had
made their report. The government, however, thought it best
• to legislate first and to inquire afterwards. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Since then he understood tlec commissioners had made their re-
port—a report which, from ad he heard, he believed would fur-
nish a very strong example that on the whole it would be better
to inquire before legislation was proceeded on. The corpora-
tion of Edinburgh nominated all the clergy of the established
church of Scotland resident in that city, and also to some, at
least three-fourths, of the professorships in the University. The
same. observation also held good with respect to the corporation
of Glasgow. Now, Übe was rightly informed, the report of the
commissioners would completely bear out and justify the antici-
pations which his noble friend below him (the Earl of llosslyn,
we believe) and he himself had expressed at the time the bill
was passed. The commissioners who had been !appointed by
his Majesty's then government were, to the best of his recollec-
tion, highly respectable gentlemen, all of them, according to
what seemed the present fashion, whig lawyers—advocates at
the Scotch bar, and he had been informed, and he believe?! his
inforraition to be correct, that their report, either in its body,
or in.the evidence, or in both, set forth-that the powers, jurisdic-
tion, and patiouage vested by that act in those annually and
popularly elected town councils ought not to have been so vested
in them (hear, hear), and that those powers were not safe to the
institutions over which, under that act, the popularly elected
town councils exercised sole and complete control. (Hear.)
Thie was the opinion which he had.•originally entertained and
expressed in that how. He thought now it was very desirable
that this document should be lair! before the house, and he
wished to ask his noble friend at the head of the government,
Arit, whether the report.bad been received? and secondly, whe-
ther he would breve any objection to its being forthwith laid on
the table of the house? He had no personal means of knowing
bow the town council of Glasgow was composed, but he believed
it would be found that many of that body were dissenters from
the established church. When this fact was added to another
fact—namely, that in the Scotch church commission, over which
the noble earl opposite presided (the Earl of Minto), there were
net only dissenters but known friends to the voluntary principle
—be anticipated that their lordships would concur with him in
thinking that it was high time that the house should know what
was the opinion of the highly respectable commissioners of cor-
porate inquiry in Scotland on the subject of the operation and
effects of the Scotch burgh reform act. This subject had an
indirect but important reference to the bill now under considera-
tion ; for the present bill, like the Scotch act, contained nothing
that would prevent the admission of dissenters to rule over the
considerable church patronage and patronage of other kinds, he
which the interests of the church establishment were wound up,
at present vested in the English corporate bodies. It was the
duty, therefore, and would well become their lordships, attached
as they were to the institutions and the church of the country?,
and to those fundamental institutions on which the monarchy
rests, to consider the manner in which the aualagous provisions
in the Scotch and the present measure had worked in Scotland.
The noble earl concluded by repeating his question.
Valcount MetaionitNE said he should not enter into a discus-
sion on what had taken place on the passing the Scotch burghs
act, neither should he attempt to follow the observations of the
noble earl, though in many of them he could not concur. He
begged leave to state that the report to which the noble earl had
alluded was received en the Bth of this month, and would imme-
diately be laid on the table of the house. Measures had also
been taken to place it printed in the bands of noble lords as
speedily as pOssible. (Hear, hear.)
At the close of this conversation the order of the day was read,
and the house went into committee on

THR MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
On the 24th clause being put,
Lord LYNDHURST said it was his intention to propose some
ameadatents on this clause. Before, however, he stated the
nature of them, be could not forbear adverting to the observa-
tions of a noble dake, (Cleveland,) who, oa presenting a peti-
tion from Darlington, had charged him (Lord Lyndhurst) with
wasting the time of the house in unnecessary discussions on
this bill.. Never in the history of parliainebt had a question re-
quiting more cautious consideration, been presented to their
lordships; and, though it was now only fourteen days since it
was proposed to read the bill a second time, the house had ad-
vanced greatly in committee, while the other house had been
employed five weeks on the discussion of this question. He,
therefore, protested against the charge of the noble duke as
being utterly destitute of foundation and made without due con-
sideration. The noble duke bad also charged them with alter-
ing the principle of the bill. He (Lord Lyndhurst) was not
ewers that any alteration had been made in the principle of the
bill up to this, time (hear, bear.) The house had now arrived
at the most iixipateaut clause in the bill—that clause which es.
tool to the etetweloaition of the governing body of the of L
wesporatitms. (Hear.) It was in re site ta tho go ' 1
4•4
bodies that his amendments would he proposed; ascot,ftrit,
must inquire what was the shape of that body under this bi 4 .
The council was-to be elected by the rate-pavers, and to hold
their °film for three years; hut no qualification was required.
That qttalificatioie he thought necessary, and to that point his
amendments would be directed. Let their lordships consider
is what way a body constituted as this bill provided wookt-set.
They were to be elected by the whole body of rate-payers, and
all past experience showed they would act under the control of
the persons by whoei they were elected. (Hear.) Past" expe-
rience showed that they would be tequired to give pledges as to
their course of conduct: they would be influenced by the pro-
spect of re-election, and thus would he bound to flatter the pre-
judices and pander to the passions of those whose suffrages they
again sought.. (Hear, hear.) The house and the country had
lately seen how this system worked; they had seen that a per-
son so appointed wouiti act under the control and be subservient
to the opinions and political views of those by whom ho was
returned. When he (Lord Lyndhurst) first entered into public
life, ha remembered the priucipre then acted upon with respect
to the, representative government of the country, and carried
also in minor matters of government. It was then said, with
respect to the representative government, that it had all the
advantages of a elemncracy while it avoided its evils; it was said
that by adopting that principle the abuses of a democracy were
got rid ot, and,the representative was left to exercise his own
fair, impartial, and unbiassed judgment upon matters submitted
to his consideration. Of that system their lordships and the
country had seen the reverse, (hear, hear,) and the represents.
the might now be considered as the mere agent or delegate of
those who elected him. Now, when it was remembered by
whom these town-councils were to bo chosen, and when the
house saw the manner in which those councils were to be com-
posed, he must he excused if he recalled to the recollection of
their lordships the extraordinary and extensive powers by this
bill vested in them. In the first place, they were to have the
possession and entire control of all the funds and property of
the corporation; in the next place, they were to be intrusted
kith the power of imposing taxation—a power far beyond that
possessed by any body in this kingdom, except the two houses
of parliament (hear, hear); in the third place, they were to
have the entire, free, and uncontrelled patronage of the church
—a patronage extensive in many corporations, and in Bristol
alone comprising eleven or twelve churches. la addition to
these powers, they were to have that of licensing public-houses
within their several and respective jurisdictions; they were also
to have the entire control and direction of the police of their
town or borough; they were also to have the extraordinary
power of selecting the individuals to be presented to the throne
for.choice for the office of magistrate, for the crown was to have
the choice only of such as were nominated by the governing
IOW? of the corporation ; and, lastly, there was to be transferred
to these nominees of the people, without qualification, inquiry,
Or security!, the extensive charitable funds placed under the care
andlupertutencience of the now existing corporations. (Hear,
lAO9 Sach were the extraordinary and extensive powers
'to be invested in the body he. had mentioned--a body so
elected, end acting under such control, as to excite in his mind
foelings of alarm for the consequences. (Hear, hear, hear.)
He 'regretted the noble viscount opposite (Viscount Melbourne)
Lad not laid on the table of the house the report to which 'his
noble friend (the Earl of Haddington) had adverted, because
the (Lord Lyndhurst) had reason to believe that in it would be
fottad such observations With respect to the operation of this

principle in Scotland as would lead the house to pause before it
gave away powers such as these to bodies so constituted.
believed it would be found that the commissioners entertained
very great doubts as to the . propriety of investing these corpe=
rations with ecclesiastical patronage and with right of inter-
ference with the. universities. As the report was not on the
table, he could not with absolute precision or certainty state
fully the nature of the other objections entertained by the com-
missioners. With respect to Glasgow, however, he had an ac-
count furnished by a gentlemen holding such a station in that
city—a gentleman of observation, ofexperience, and of talent—
as to be able to state the wanner in which the system worked.
there, and which would put the house on its guard as to the
Course it should pursue in this bill. It was material that he
should refer theirlordships to some passages in this letter, which
he ‘(Lori Lyndhurst) considered important. This gentleman
says—" The baneful effects of the want of such a qualification
we severely feel in Glasgow, under the Scotch burgh reform
act, anti 1 am anxious our case should be known to your grace
before the cities of England be subjected to a similar infliction.
Under the old system our magistrates and councillors were
taken from the highest class of our citizens, and uniformly
*ere the wealthiest and most influential of our merchants and
manufacturers. Under the new system councillors have been
elected who were, on oath, certified to be so poor as to he un-
able to contribute the smallest sum to the poor rate; others
were but lately bankrupts, and newly discharged by their credi-
tors ; and the great majority were men of neither influence nor
property, distinguished in their little circles merely by the
violence of their political opinions. The acts of such a council
are just what might have been anticipated. Having little or no
stake in the community themselves, they proceeded to deal with
the burgesses' property, under their trust, in the roost improper
manner, employing the burgh funds in- attempting to turn out
out the old legal and civil servants of the corporation, Who held
their offices' ad vitaro out eulpam ' and to put in creatures of
their own—lo attempting to exclude the established clergy from
their share in the maaagetnent of the greatest of our city cha-
rities, which they derived from the will of the founder, and
which they had exerciseittor 190 'rears. These and an endless
catalogue of mischievous Measures have been the consequence
of the inexperience and ignorance of our councillors; and the
respectable part of the council are so dissatisfied with the con-
duct of the majority, that they seldom can be brought to take a
share in their proceedings, and there is every prospect of the
councils falling into utter contempt. The burgh funds have
suffered severe dilapidations under their management, and they
talk of resorting to a poll-tax to replace what they have dissi-
pated. Under the management of the old council, for several
years back, the publishelbalance-sheet exhibited a surplus re-
venue." It Avduld not be convenient that he should state the
name of the wt' r, but he had no objection to communicate it
to hit noble anelf,leerned friend opposite. (Hear.) Now the
questinu was, did their lordships think that the town council
would be so -constituted under this bill as it now stood, that it
might be safely trusted with the exercise of those extensive
powers with which they would be intrusted under this bill ? In
his opinion they required some steadiness in that body. They
required something in its composition to guard against that un-
steady influence which from time to time would be exercised by
the popular party in -the refriewal of parts of the council. But
how was this to be effcled ? He thought it could be by having
a certain portion of the corporation not subject to re-election
every three years, but to hold their appointment for life. His
proposition would be that the proportion to exempt from elec-
tton should amount to one-fourth of the whole of the town coun-
cil. Now, in this he followed the example of some of the best.
corporations in the country ; be followed also that ideal model
for which some contended, who asserted that the ancient prac-
tice of our corporations was that the election of its members
should be an open niie, and that many of them should hoid
their appointments for life. He followed also the example of
the corporation of London, which had its common council an-
nually elected, but its aldermen elected for life; but he was also
folowing the precedent let in a bill which had received the
sanction of his noble and learned friend and of the noble
viscount. Ile flattered himself that on this occasion he should
have the support and protection of his noble and learned friend.
Lord BROCc IiA.M.—No. •

Lord LYN DHURST was very sorry to hear this sudden denial
of support from his noble and learned friend, and that too before
he-stated the reasons on which be had founded his hope that he
should receive that support. The ground on which he had
flattered himself that he should have the support of the noble
viscount was this—that in the bill to which he had alluded his
noble and learned friend had a provision to this effect, that each
corporation should elect in each ward one freeman who was to
be an alderman, and who should hold his office for life. Another
clause of that bill which he was disposed to follow was, that the
mayor and aldermen of such corporations should be members of
the common council in virtue of their office, notwithstanding
anything which had been.said in the previous clauses of the bill,
as to one-third of the council going out every three years. In tbis
he quoted the exact words of his noble and learned friend's bill.
That bill, it was unnecessary to say, was that measure by which
it was proposed to give municipal charters to certain towns and
newly created boroughs. It was a measure drawn up with great
attention, and had undergone the careful revision of a noble
lord, then the leader of the other house of parliament. It had
received the full approbation of the then government, and he
had never heard that his noble and learned friend had ever said
a word against the principle of that part of the bill. He himself
could not speak on the subject ?rim his own recollection, for he
was not present, but he had searched that mirror in which the
past proceedings of the house were reflected, and he could not
find any record or mention of any such objection having been
made by his noble and learned friend. He had also consulted
a noble lord who bad good opportunities of knowing, and on
whose excellent memory he could rely, and he could not find
out that his noble and learned friend had ever expressed any
dissatisfaction at the priuciple of having a portion of the corpo-
ration—namely, the aldermen—to hold their offices for life. On
the contrary, he found that his noble and learned friend praised
the mode of electing aldermen as proposed in his bill, arid that
which was adopted- in the corporation of London. He could
not but admire the prudence of the course adopted by his noble
and learned friend with respect to that measure. It was a
Measure vihich went to create corporations, but it bad not to
deal with- existing interests. It did not interfere with vested
rights or ancient privileges, it was not vaixed.up with compli-
cated questions, and vet his noble 'and learned friend, with a
prudence which did him credit, was anxious that it should not
be hurried through parliament; and, having laid it on their
lordships' table, he proposed that it should stand over for another
session. Contrasting that course with the railway speed with
which it was attempted to urge the present measure forward, he
must call the latter most exceptionable, unwise, and injudicious.
Now, what he proposed was, that three-fourths of the town
council should consist of those already named in the bill, and be
elected in the manner there stated; but that the remaining
fourth, having the title of "capital burgesses, or " aldermen,"
(several noble lords called out " Aldermen ") should be elected,
and once elected should continue to hold' their offices for life
Their lordships might ask whom did he propose to fill the place
of aldermen, and he had no hesitation in saying that he thought
it but an act of justice that the offices should be continued to
those who now held them. (Hear, hear.) They held them by
ancient charters; they had long been connected with the admi-
nistration of property to a large amount. There was no law in
the country could deprive them of those appointments, except
they forfeited them by misconduct. It was a principle of our
constitution that "no man shall be dispossessed of his freehold
except by the judgment of his peers, or by the law of the land."
What ! the noble viscount bad abandoned that part of the pre-
amble which cast an imputation on the corporations. Where,.
then, was the charge against them ? Was it in the report of
the commissioners ? l'hat report had been answered by evi-
dence at the bar in thirty cases which had been gone into. Here,
then, were men against whom no charge had been proved. On
what principle ought they to be deprived of their chartered
rights and franchises ? He was sure their lordships would never
sanction such injustice. There would be no difficulty in the
plan he proposed. It was the common practice when the crown
granted a charter to a municipal corporation that the first alder-
men should be named in it is a matter of grace and favour. In
the present case, if the numbers marked in the bill as the town-
council should correspond with the present numbers in corpora-
tions, there the number of aldermen might be allowed to remain
if they formed only one-fourth of the whole, but if they exceeded
that number they might be reduced; or if they were below it
the number could be easily increased. He had thus opened the
nature of his amendment, but he would defer putting it in the
exact words until he came to the clause at which it was come in.
Lord BROUGHAM thought with his noble friend that the par-
ticular form of words, the shape of the proposition they had to
discuss was a matter of mighty little-importance. Inroads, like
everything else, were comparative, and that which brought the
invader three days march within the frontiers of the invaded
country was no inroad compared to that which put him in pos-
session of the capital. He called the former amendments the
other night inroads, because they infringed upon the integrity
of the measure,—because they no longer left the measure pure,
free, and in its original aspect,—but what was now to be done
caused him to regard a bat had been done as no inroad at all.
Bad as that inroad was upon the measure, now that he had heard
his noble and learned friend's proposition; he looked back to it
with envy and regret—a regret that the tune of Thursday and
Friday should have been lost in discussing it. "Do not,' said
Lord brougham, "let us shut oar eyes to the fact, or disguise
it from ourselves—the bill. is gene (esusi cheers) if this princis
t)jl iaintr,oduced." I know you; lordships will say "so much
e better. '
A Noble Lord.—" No!—not at all !"
Lord BROUGHAM.—I believe a majority of your lordships
will be prepared to rinse er—" So much the better that the bill
should be lost." The noble and learned lord then proceeded to
sayslat& their lordship had,fultilled his worst antimpatiuns. Hia
noble friend's proposition was grounded on the assumption that
into popularly elected were the mere puppets or tools of those
who choose them,,and not the real representatives of the inte-
rests of the country; and he, Lord Brougham, because he
thought that the popularly elected might safely be trusted to
represent the 'interests of those who chose them, should give
to that proposition his decided and most unqualified oppo-
sition. If his noble friend's proposition were once admitted, it
would go at once to abolish the representative principle in the
other house of parliament. He could not conceive an argument
which applied to the election of representatives of municipal in-
terests, which would not with the same force be applicable to the
election of members of parliament. He was satisfied the peo-
ple of this country might be safely entrusted with the manage-
ment of their own affairs. His noble and learned friend, allud-
ing to u bill which he (Lord Brougham) had introduced into
that house two years ago, and in which it was
for
that men
once chosen aldermen should. be aldermen for life, expressed
great surprise and astonishment to find that be (Lord 13-)
would not on this occasion come forward to second his proposi-
tion for making at least a portion of the townsoounesl town-
coancillors for life. In the first place• his noble end learned
' friend should recollect that there was a wide difference between'
the functions to be performed by town councillors, and those to
be performed by aldermen. Town councillors were chosen
simply to defend the interests of the borough, and to watch over
' the expenditure of the borough funds. Aldermen, on the other
hand, were not the taxers—not the guardians of the common
purse—but were filling a judicial situation, and assisting in the
administration or justice. (Hear, hear.) Because the alder-
man was elected for life, therefore it by no means followed that
the town-councillor should hold the office for the like period.
But his noble and learned friend hail no right to endeavour to
bind him to the letter of the bill of 1833, because that measure
wits, in fact, nothing more than a sketch. It was not brought for-
ward as a perfect measure; but merely as a skeleton which
should lie on the table of the house until further inquiry and
greater experience should teach them how, in the best manner,
t,, fill up its different parts. In the next place his noble anti
learned friend stated that the Scotch commissioners, after in-
stituting an inquiry into the subject, found that the Scotch cor-
poration reform bill did not work well. This his noble and
learned friend asserted upon the strength of a letter he had re-
ceived from a high authority in that part of the country; but
surely his noble and learned friend must have forgotten that a
petition in favour of the bill, signed by 30,000 persons, had been
sent up from Glasgow. He would place that petition against
the letter alluded to by his noble and learned friend. 'Besides
he (Lord B.) had had a very extensive communication with
Scotland upon.the subjeet, and up to this moment he had never
beard one
_syllable or whisper of cemplaint against the measure-
( Hear.) With respect taitheaiaeacise of church patronage, be
must say that he thought his noble and learned friend's fears
upon that point were wholly groundless: Alowsovai that, patro-
nage to be exercised except by the governidg body of the cor-
porations, arid who would say that a governing body, freely
elected, would not exercise it as honestly and properly as those