The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

terests) to redistribute it in any manner it might think proper.
(Hear, hear.) Now, what were the measures which bad
been introduced by Lord Grey's government with respect
to church property in Ireland? His noble friend (Lord John
Russell) had stated, that tithe property iu Ireland amounted to
upwards of 1:800,1100 a-year. 'Ms statement his noble friend
took from the calculations of the hon. member for St. Alban's,

on which he seemed to rely ; but he (Sir J. Graham) had heard
the able and argumentative speech on the subject last year from
the right hon. and learned member for the University of Dub-
lin (Mr. Lefroy)—a speech, by the way, which had yet re-
mained unanswered, and in which it was, to his mind, most
clearly shown that the amount did not exceed £620,000 a-year.
A charge had been made ou that property of not less than
£70,000 a-year, which had been the, amount of the vestry cess,
and which had before been charged on land—a charge equal to
an eighth or ninth of the whole amount—but this was not all—
a tax had been laid on all benefices varying in amount from £3
to £l5 per cent. What was the principle of that act ? It went
to meet the very objection which was one ground of the present
motion, that Money was paid for religious duties which were
not required It enacted, that where a minister derived a
revenue from a living in which there was no protestant popula-
tion, that living, on becoming vacant, should not be filled up.
But what was the test of there not being a protestant popula-
tion ?—one in his opinion the very Lest that could have been
selected. It was, that in any living in which divine service
had not been performed from the year 1830 to 1833, and in
which a vacancy occurred, the ecclesiastical commissioners
should suspend a reappointment, and that the revenues of that
living should, after deducting the payment of a curate, be ap-
plied to other protestant purposes. Now what were these ?
What, too, was the application of the revenues made by this
measure ? Why, the application was to uses strictly protestant.
The commissioners had the power to re-appropriate the original
revenues of these parishes thus circumstanced, and to destine.
those revenges to other parishes. For himself, he must
say, that in consenting to this principle he had much strained.
his conscience. (Hear, hear, and laughter.) The selection of
a first point of attack on the church had been, he admitted,
judiciously made; the evils arising from the intended appropria-
tion would soon be extended to the church of England, which it
would ultimately destroy. He saw the noblelord the member for
Liverpool in his place, but he regretted that the hon. and
learned member for Dublin was not present, as he was about to
put a case in which both were somewhat interested. It was
known, doubtless, to the majority of the house that the corpora-
tion of Liverpool was a' very wealthy corporation; that the
revenues arising from its property and resources were applied
to the improvement of the commerce and trade of that port, by
the formation of docks, quays, &c., until that body. had almost
exhausted the possibility of further improvements in that great
and important harbour. It would also be in the recollection of
the house, that the hon. and learned member for Dublin was
anxious for the construction of a ship canal between Dublin and
Kinstown. Undoubtedly the trade of Dublin was connected
with'the trade of Liverpool, but what would be thought of a pro-
position to apply the surplus revenue of the corporation of
Liverpool to the formation of the suggested ship canal to Dublin.
The hon. members opposite did not contemplate any very. great
surplus revenue to be available for the principle of appropriation.
If they had their own way he believed that £lOO,OOO was the
most they expected to gain; the present proposition, to take
from the church, was not to enrich the state—nut that the state
might gain but that the church might lose. Such a doctrine as
this most completely broke down that great principle (the doc-
trine of meum at tuum) which was the foundation upon which all
property rested, and which it ought to be the object of a govern-
ment to maintain—a doctrine, which, if once relaxed, would
bring any nation from the condition of civilization to a state of
barbarism. (Hear, hear.) After livings
into some details as to
the number and value of church livings in Ireland, Sir James
made some observations on the articles of the union._ These, he

admitted, were not, exactly, like the laws of the Medes and
Persians, but it should be remembered that one of the con-
tracting parties was the protestant parliament of Ireland. They,
at that time, felt their weakness in being surrounded by a dense
population of a different creed, were conscious that their religion
was that of a small minority iu the country. To strengthen
themselves they made it a fundamental article of the agreement,
that the united churches of England and Ireland should be for
ever maintained. It appeared to his mind that this was the
moving consideration to the weaker party upon the very face of
the contract. Such being the case, should the Commons of
England now, even before many of the parties to that compact
had, passed away, ungenerously withdraw from it that main and
moving consideration which in his judgment had led to its com-
pletion, and had induced an independent legislature to enter
into it? (Cheers.) After referring to the opinions of Lord
Minto and Mr. Pitt, that the security of the established church
was not incompatible with the admission of catholics to the en-
joyment of equal rights as subjects, Sir James continued. The
house would do well to remember that the dangers of the change
now contemplated would be incurred for a trifling advantage—
Finciples ot vital importance would be sacrificed without the
slightest hope of producing that peace and harmony which was
argued as the result. The noble lord (Lord John Russell) had
not named the extent to which he sought to carry it into effect ;
but supposing he removed the incumbents from one-fourth of
the parishes in Ireland, would the change be satisfactory to the
remaining three-fourths, in which the ministers would still
reside, where tithes would be still unabolished—in short, where
everything would remain in state quo. He woutil suppose further,
that in one-fourth of the parishes the new principle was applied,
and that the revenues were paid to the board in Dublin, and the
parishes left to take their chance of what that board might think
fit to award for purposes of education. Would not the inhabit-
ants of these districts regard the neighbouring parishes in
which the ministers still continued to reside, spending their
incomes among their flocks, with other feelings than those of
envy and jealousy ? Was this a course likely to add to the
peace of Ireland? (Hear, hear.) No; if pease was the object'
of this'ineasure, its success was indeed hopeless. (Hear.) Peace
had hitherto often been the promise which Ireland had made
for important changes and concessions made to that country.
The right hon baronet then read some extracts from the evi-
denece of Mr. Shell (member for Tipperary) given before a se-
lect committee of the House of Commons, in the year 1824-5.
That hon. member then 'thought that if catholic emancipation
were granted there could not exist anii'man however great
his power who could excite the people on any political subject;
that there would be no objection to the payment of tithes; nor
any opposition offered to the rights of the established church.
The right hon. baronet then read a quotation, of which the
following is the substance':—" After all the evils which have
fallen on this-devoted land, it is a consolation to reflect that the
legislative axe is laid at last to the root of the establishment.
(Cheers from the ministry.) The pruners of our ecclesiastical
establishments have not read the Roman history in vain, when
the ten overshadowing plants which spretd their narcotic and
poisonous influence all around them have' been laid low. This
is but the prelude to a further and still more enlarged process of
extinction: (Cheers repeated.) That, he supposed, was a
prophesy respecting the present motion. (Hear, near.) "By
every successive reform abuses would be removed, until it is to
be 11;ped that not a single vestige of that mighty nuisance will
remain." (Cheers repeated.) In this language the rev, prelate
spoke of the removal of that national grievance of which the
house had already heard so much in a former speech. Sir Jas.
Graham next made some sarcastic observations on the union of
the O'Connell party with Lord John-Russell, as their declared
head, and quoted some passages from O'Counell's letter to Mr.
Sharman Crawford, in which he proposed to apply some of the
property of the church to'defray all the expenses of dispensaries,
infirmaries, hospitals, and asylums, and to multiply the number
of these institutions until they became quite sufficient for the
wants of the sick; that is to say, that church property is to be
granted to the landlords of Ireland to enable them to do that
which, without confiscation, they are bound to do by the law of
humanity, if not by the law of the land—namely, to provide for
the relief of their poorer brethren. (Cheers.) After some fur-
ther observations upon the evidence of Mr. O'Connell, who was
also examined before the select committee of 1823-5, Sir James
Graham concluded with the following remarks:—lt might be
said, that in the line which he was then takin'g he was departing
from those genuine Whig principles which he bad embraced
from his first entrance into political life, which he had advocated
for a great number of years, aad to which he trusted and flatter-
ed himself he was attached. (Some cries of " Oh, oh !" on the
opposition benches, soon dmiwned in loud cheers-from the mi-
nisterial benches.) What were those genuine whig principles?
He was speaking in the presence of a noble member of the illus-
trious house of Russell, famed for its support, not less of the
principles of civil freedom than of the principles of the protes-
tant religion. (Cheers.) Whig . principles, as he understood
them, consisted in the bold assertion of the utmost freedom of
thought and action in matters of politics and religion that was
consistent with the law and constitution of the country.
(Cheers.) No death's-head—no cross-bone denunciations
against those who ventured to exercise, according to their con-
science, their civil franchises. (Cries of "Oh I" from the op-
position, and immense cheering from the ministerial benches.)
IsTo prayer of mercy limited to them in heaven, but not to be ex-
tended them on this side the grave. (Great and general cheer-
ing.) Genuine whig principles, if he mistook not, consisted not
less in the love of civil liberty than in the jealousy of the ca-
tholic religion, as an engine of political power, when it arrogated
to itself a right to ascendancy and claimed to put other religions
under its feet, (cheers,) and, above all, he considered genuine
whig principles to consist in a warm attachment to the pro-
testant religion, as by law established. (Great cheenng.)
He had but one topic more, and with that he would conclude.
He had endeavoured to state to the house some of his feelings
upon thin question. He had told them, and he now repeated
with the utmost sincerity, that he bad a religious feeling upon
it. He (honed. that the property which had been set apart by
our.ancestors to maintain and propagate the protestant religion
was sacred, and ought to be applied to sacred uses. More than
that—he said that those who ministered to the altar ought to
)iv by the altar. (Cheer's.) That printiple is high as heaven,
and you cannot reach it—it is strong as the Almighty, atid, you
cannot overturn it—it is fast as the Eternal, and you cannot
unfix it. (Cheers.) It is binding on you as a legislature com-
posed of christian men, and acting upon christian principles
and christian considerations ; and, as far as he for one was con-
cerned, there was no consideration upon earth which would
lead him to compromise and destroy it. (The right hon. ba-
ronet then sat down amidst loud cheering, which lasted some
minutes.) •
Lord HOWICK they spoke at considerable length, and hoped
that his right hon. friend (Sir James Graham) would be as
ready to give him (Lord H.) credit for sincerity, although he
took a different view of the subject, as he was disposed to give
his right hon. friend. His friend (Sir J. G.) had said that the
property of the Irish church was given to maintain and propa-
gate the protestant religion in Irelanr. Had it done this?
That it had not done so was not a matter of surprise to him
(Lord H.) The people of
_lreland feel' that it is an insult to
them to have a large property vested in their land devoted to the
maintenance of a -clergy to Whom they are aliens, and who are
naturally indisposed to adopt their creed. The noble lord pro-
ceeded to make a general review of the speech of Sir James
Graham, but his arguments possessed no peculiar features of
either novelty or force of expression.
On the motion of Mr. Lefroy, the debate was adjourned till
to-morrow (this day).
The report of supply was brought up and read.
The other orders of the day having been disposed of, the
Tuesday.
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