The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-22 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

rinpaial Partianunt.
HOUSE OF LOBS.

MONDAY, Marten 18.
Petitions for the better observance of the Sabbath, and for
eh, abolition of negro slavery, were presented from various
larts of the country by the Earl of hadnor, Lord Stuart de
tothsay, the Bishop of Lincoln, Lords Dacre, Foley, Duudas,
Dinorben, Western, and Gosford, the Bishops of Lichfield and
Coventry and of Bristol, Lords Kenyon arid Suffield, and Earl
Grey.---Lord Suffield presented a petition from Liverpool for
.a mitigation of the criminal code, particularly so far as it in-
flicted the penalty of death for offences against property.
STATE OF THE COUNTY ON MAYO.

Lord TEYN AM said he had on a former occasion moved for
rAurns connected with the proclaiming of the barony of Gal-
in the county of Mayo, in Ireland, with a view to showing
their lordships tnat the Irish goveinment was not in the first
instance warranted in superseding the ordinary jurisdiction of
toe magistracy in that county, and had, besides, not exercised
those extraordinary powers in a manner calculated to inspire
one with 'confidence at the present moment, when they called
upon ,Parliament to arm them with still more extraordinary
Alai more unconstitutional powers, ander circumstances which
no .man could contemplate without abirm. His lordship, after
making some remarks on the state of parties in the county of
2iayo at the election iu 1532, and the conflicts between the
police and the people, in consequence of which the barony of
Gallen was proclaimed to be in a state of disturbance and in-
surrection, concluded by moving. that an humble address be
presented to his Majesty, praying him to - direct the Lord-
Lieutenant of Ireland to appoint proper and efficient persons
t.) inquire into the farts in consequence of which the barony of
Gallen was placed under the Peace Preservation Act.
'Ole Marquess of Scnio said that When he came down to the
house he did so in the expectation that he should hear some-
thing to answer. he was, however, agreeably disappointed.
tle had, indeed, heard a long and desultory story of armed men
g,,iitg about like roaring. lions, (a laugh) but he had actually
heard nothing emanating immediately from the noble lord which
c hild move him to a reply. There were certainly one or two
iioints•in the memorial which would require some. observations
from him, and which would oliige him in turn to read some
documents, iu order that lie might more completely defend him-
self frout the base ealumnies -winek had- been levelled against
1)1(11. lie lied been accused of having reconimended the appli-
cation of the Peace Preservation Act to the barony of Galen.
1.41 reply to that accusation he would say, that the bOth part
a/one of that recommendation-fell to his share, for he was only
one of the W magistrates by- whose advice that step was taken.
After reading several letters referring to the disturbed state of
the county of Mayo, the noble marquess concluded by stating
that there were not the slightest ground for acceding to the
motion of the noble lord. (hear, hear.)
Lord PLUNKETT said that it was unnecessary for him to enter
into any discussion after the statement made by the noble mar-
quess, which contained an ample refutation of all the charges
made by the noble baron who had introduced the subject.
'1.13e Marquess of WESTAIEATII observed that the policemen
in leciend were generally natives of the places in which they
were employed.
Lord TfiliNklA M, said that the noble marquess bad made so
satisfactory a statement in his usual candid manner, that he
Was convinced that he- (Lord Teyuham) had been misled by
the information which had been sent to him, and therefore he
begged leave to withdraw his motion.
rhe motion was then withdrawn.—Adjourned.
• TUESDAY.

The Earl of Radnor presented a petition from the parish of
St. Ciement panes, fore repeal of the assessed taxes.
The Archbishop of Dublin presented several petitions from
Dublin for the better observance of the sabbath.
Similar petitions were presented from Edinburgh and
.other
places in Scotland by the Earl of liarrowby.
the Marquess* WESTMINSTER presented a petition from
the metropolis signed by upwards of 15,00 U persons, inciuding
s-nue of the most4espectauie merchants and traders of Lou-
don, and several elprgyinen of the established church, in fa-
vour of a removal 0$ the civil disabilities affecting the Jews.
• The noble marque4l/4 gave the petition his most cordial sup-
FOrt, and trusted should, ere long, have the satisfaction
of voting for a meal t e which would put an end to all civil
distinctions among British subjects. Already had they re-
moved from their statute book the laws which had so long, so
unwisely, and unjustly, deprived their Dissenting. and Catho-
lic fellow-subjects of their constitutional rights ; it was to be
earnestly hoped that the same wise. policy would induce them
to admit the Jews to ad the immunities of British subjects pay-
ing ahegiauce to, and protected by, the British laws. It had
been said that the Jewish tenets were incompatible with that
unqualified loyalty which was the condition of unqualified eli-
giboity to the civil advantages of the constitution. The satis-
tectory refutation of this assertion. was afforded by the conduct
the Jews in Holland, in America, in Jamaica, in Canaua,
and in Hanover, where they enjoyed a civil equality.
The Bishop of LONDON begged the noble marquess to bear
in mind that though The-admission of the Protestant Dissenters
and Catholics to the privileges of the constitution had destroyed
the exclusively Church of England character of the legislature,
it had not, as would the admission of the Jews, effectually put
an end to its Christian character.
Lord SI:WIELD presented a petition from Manchester, also
ia favour of a removal of the Jewish disabilities. In support
Of the petition the noble lord said that the report of the Sanhe-
drina or Warsaw, convened by Napoleon when in possession of
Poland, put it beyond all doubt that the Jews were bound to
yield their most unqualified allegiance to the laws of the coun-
trx which protected them.
Similar petitions were presented from Bath and other places
by the Marquess of Lansdown. The noble marquess also pre-
sented a petition, signed by a great number of the beer retailers
of the city of Perth, praying for an alteration of the law respect.
ing the retailing of beer.
,Lord SUFFIELD presented a petition from a place in Suffolk,
for the abolition of negro slavery.
Earl FITZWILLIAM presented a similar petition from the
Protestant Dissenters of a pace in Northampton.
'The Earl of ItoDEN presented a petition for the better ob-
servance of the sabbath, from Dundee, and petitions against
church reform front a place in the county of Down, anu from
a place in the county of Meath. The nobie lord then presented
petitions for a change in the national system of education in
Ireland, from the Synod of Ulster, and from the Eoyal Society
of . I reitaid.

EDUCATION.-IRELAND.

The Earl of RODEN said that having felt it his duty some
few evenings since to give notice of his intention to sui,mit to
tue consideration of the house a petition on the subject of the
new system of education in Ireland, he heneved that the pre-
sent was the proper opportunity of doing so. He thought he
should be able to prove that the system in question was by no
means adapted for a national system of education in Ire:and;
that its tendency was exclusive; that in short, its existence was
incompatible with the feelings of the different classes of the
Irish people. In the first instance he would remind their lord-
ships, that previously to the establishment of this society ano-
ther institution was in existence, and that institution compre-
hended the national system of education for Ireland fromjlB26
n1'183.1. He alluded to the Kildare-place Society. That soci-
ety, was ip the receipt of an annual grout from parliament, and
be believed he was not saying ton much when he affirmed,
from his own knowledge, as well as from the representations
of
,others, that it worked well, and produced most important
benefit to the people of Ireland. It would also he recollected
that during the year 1831 His Majesty's government stated it to
be their opinion that the Kildare-place Society was too exclu-
sive in its character, and that it was, therefore, necessary to
change it altogether, in order that all distinction mightbe abolish-
ed, as, tar as related to the education of the people of Ireland.
It would, however, be necessary to remind the house that at
the period when the Kildare-place Society was abolished, 1,61)0
schools were established under its auspices, containing 137,639
scholars, the majority of whom were Roman Catholics. But
the vital defect of this system was, it appeared, that it suffered
the indiscriminate use iu the schools of uninitilated Scripture.
( Hear. hear.) Its existence was not, however, disagreeable to
the opinions or feelings of the great mass of the Roman Catho-
li:n, of Ireland, because they entered their children in the
schools established by it. 13ut its existence was disagreeable.
to the Roman Catholic priests, and through their intrigues and
agitation it was overthrown and another substituted in its place
wore immediately under their control. The new system, he
(the Earl otitouen) contended, was one of exclusive education,
because it was impossible for the children of Protestants to
attend schools the object and intention of which was to educate
Roman Catholics alone. (Hear, hear.) It was impossible for
l'rotestant children to attend nunneries and monasteries to-
wards the support of which the public money was appropriated
through the medium of the board appointed under the new
system. The noble lord then commented on the various items
if expenditure mentioned in the return, in order to show either
the useless or partial application of the money. In one of the
schools which received t;bo annually, the regulation was, that
the scholars should assemble at 9, in, the morning for mass, at
12 for spiritual lessons, at half-past 3'for catechism, and at 4 for
prayers. In another of the school
.which were benefited by
tle munificence of the beitild„ a lady, whom he happened to
know.'bed seen a book entitled Fifty lieaiong uyuinit _ecomium

a Protestant. (A laugh.) This new system was a bantling of
Itoinanism; it would not satisfy the new allies of ministers—
the Catholic hierarchy. Concession would but whet their ap-
petite, and they would never be content until
.Romanisin was
triumphant in Ireland. Ten PIQIOStkIAt bi§llops were to be
destroyed, and he was inclined to believe that the Roman
Catholic priests would finally be paid out of the plunder thus
obtained. The Protestants of Ireland look to. parliament for
protection. They had been the English garrison in Ireland
from the time of Henry VIII. His cause was theirs, and with
them he would stand or fall. He implored the house to put an
end to this atrocious system of education, and thus spare the
country both the expense and disgrace of supportiu.g it. He
trusted that the British parliament would never unite with the
Roman Catholic priesthood in depriving the people of the word
' of God. The noble lord concluded by presenting a petition
against the new system of education.
'the Archbishop of DUBLIN said that he presented himself
to the house under circumstances painful even to a person who
was not, like himself, a perfect stranger to their lordships,
because he was placed on his trial not only on account of his
connexion with that system which the noble earl had
called a bantling of Bannanisiu, 'but because he had, as
it was alleged, been guilty, as a member of the board, not
only of a lavish expenditure of the funds placed at his dis-
posal, but with something like malversation and bribery.
He was invited by ministers to take a part in the education
board, and after much consideration and close inquiry he con-
sented, from a deliberate conviction, that it was for the benefit
of his country that he should do so. his anxious attention had
been directeu to Ireland, on account of the disturbance and dis-
tress which had long prevailed in that unhappy island. When,
therefore, he was requested to become a member of the boat-a,
he was not a stranger to the subject,, for the educatiou of the
people was, a question which he had frequently turned over in
his mind; anti he thought the plan proposed by ministers was
more likely to be serviceable to the country than any other that
could be adopted. Attacks upon his personal character he
would answer, as he always had, not by words, but by his con-
duct. (Hear, hear.) A character which could not defend it-
self was hardly worth defending. It was only. because a man
might, without blame, be considered as belonging to a political
party that lie had felt it necessary thus briefly to declare that
he was not attached to any. There was no plan of education
which had been suggested in Ireland to which objections could
not be urged. Some persons *objected to educating Protestant
and Cathblic children separately, and some to their being edu-
cated together; but in his opinion the most objectionable thing
was not to educate either. The government plan was founded
upon, and, indeed, almost copied from, that whiA had long
been established in the Mendicitv School. It was only last
year that their lordships had decided the new system should be
tried there; surely,' unless they'nieant to convict themselves of
folly, they would allow it to have a fair trial. They were told
that the Kildare-street Society had not had a fair trial, He
would not undertake to say that it had ; 'but it had existed for a
good many years. In the present case, however, the boys' mo-
del school—that was, the school in which the teachers were.
trained (and this was a most important part of the plan)—was
opened' only yesterday, and the girls' model school would not
be opened until after Easter. Thus it was evident that so far
from the new system having had a fair trial, it had not yet come
into operation. To begin to speak of the results of the system
at the present day reminded him of a child who sowed flower-
seeds in a garden, and pulled them 'up every day to See whether
they were growing. Their lordships were told that Protestant
children did not attend the schools likkt,, it, was right that they
should also be informed that this-was in consequence of the
system of intimidation aud.persecution which was exercised by
those who objected to the new plan. To such an extent was
the systein of intimidation carried, that individuals refused to
allow their names to be mentionad in that house as the sup-
porters of the system, because theiitcharacters would suffer mo-
ral assassination. While persons were murdered in- the south,
characters were assassinated in thse north. A Presbyterian
congregation in the north of Ireland had been prevailed upon
to desert their pastor because he ventured to approve of the
,c-rovernment plan, and the consequence was, that he had been
deprived of the means of subsistence, and had even been in-
sulted in the streets. The whole country had been told that
the Protestants were deprived of-the Bible. The board, cer-
tainly, did not compel, and he for one never would compel any
one to read the sacred volume. The absence of persecution
was, in his opinion, the proper spirit of Protestantism, but at all
events, it was the proper spirit of Christianity. In addition to
this, Protestant clergymen might, on three days in the week,
go to the schools and instruct Protestant children in the for-
mula of the church. if Protestant clergymen thOught they
would be polluted by entering the schools to teach the children,
they should not complain of their own act, they had no right to
avail themselves of their own wrong. If the apostles had been
as scrupulous about entering the Jewish synagogues, he doubted
whether we should ever have heard of the gospel. It might not
be unimportant to mentioq, that the very plan for establishing
which the government were so much censured had been acted
upon in the schools of the St. Patrick charity for the last fifty
years. 'rhe most rev. prelate concluded by repeating, that he
not only would be willing to undergo double and treble the mis-
representation and slanders that had been heaped tlpon him,
but to lay down his life, if it were required, to attain the most
important of all objects—the moral regeneration of Ireland.
(Hear, hear.)
The Bishop of EXETER said, he was not one of those who
had ever attributed party motives to the most rev. prelate,
_and
he was sure that the most rev. prelate was altogether above
the - influence of such motives, which certainly had not been
attributed to him by any persons in this country. The most
rev. prelate had told them that they must either adopt this sys-
tem or leave the Irish with no education at all. Now, was it a
fact that the mass of the Irish people were less educated than
the mass of the people of this country ? The fact was the
other way ; and lie would state that they were more educated
than the mass of the people in Englanu, and that, too, upon
the high authority of the Archbishop olCashel, who, in giving
his evidence before the commissioners of education inquiry
in Ireland, declared that he found even in the county of Tip-
perary the people more generally educated than they were in
England. In making that statement the Archbishop of Cashel
did not mean to say that they were better educuted than they
were in England, but that a greater proportion of them could
read and write than there would be tumid amongst a simiair
amount of population in England. It was not, therefore, a want
in the quantity, but a want in the quality of the education that
it was necessary to supply in Ireland, and it therefore behoved
those upon whom the superintendence of that education de-
volved to devise a good system for the instruction of the peo-
ple of that Country. Toe most rev. prelate had called upon
their lordships not to stultify themselves by acting in con-
tradiction to their vote of last year. He begged to remind
the most rev. prelate that the majority last year was in fa-
vour of, and not against, the motion that was then brought
forward. He (the bishop of Exeter) had always said that the
system of education which the most rev. prelate now defended
was radically wrong, and that no trial would prove that it
was worthy of support, for that it was opposed to the prin-
ciples of truth,.aud to the principles of the Protestant religion.
The right rev. prelate here read extracts from the " Catechism
of the Council of Trent," and other " standatd" Catholic
works, in order to show that " heretics and schismatics were
liable to anathema and were not heritors to Christ's' kingdom,
save through the plea of invincible ignorance." These doctrines
showed that it was actually impossible to fix upon any general
system of education which could unite the Protestant and Ca-
tholic children in one system of mutual love and charity. How
was it possible fora Catholic child to look upon a heretic and a
schismatic as a Christian brother? The right rev. prelate
next read extracts from the -commandments of the Catholic
church, in order to show that though the payment of tithes to
pastors was strictly enforced by that church, yet that the
tatholic clergy now interpreted those commandments in their
own favour, making. it out that the tithes so eujoined meant
their own remuneration, and not the tithes of the established
church. He had no doubt, as a scheme of national education,
the government system for Ireland had failed—and ought to
fail as it was opposed to the written word of God, and to the
spirit of the Protestant church of England.
Lord PLUNKETT felt some difficulty in replying to the noble
earl (Roden), not ou account of the novelty or the force of the
noble earl's arguments, but from their vague and unfounded
character. The noble earl was one of those persons who first
assumed their own premises wholly independent of fact,—and
next drew their own conclusions, wholly regardless of their be-
ing of logical inference. 1 he worst was, that those illogical
conclusions were put forth as facts, under the most plausible
pretences of religion. What, after all, was the great crime of
ministers? 'Why, the permitting a volume of extracts from the
Bible to be read in common in their schools. But it shouid be
recollected that the highest authorities of the Protestant church
had approved of tho extracts; that they contained nothing con-
troversive and were eminently moral and charitable in their
tendency, and that they left the Protestants free to peruse the
inure volume when and as they pleased. (Hear.) Then, it
should also be recollected that the Kildare-street Society, of
which the noble earl was just now the zealous advocate; also
permitted " extracts" to be read in their schools, and that, too,
from the Douay version (hear, hear.) and that the only differ-
ence was, that while our extracts were read under the controul
of both Catholic and Protestant masters, it depended wholly on
the masters in the Society's schools. lear.) In the name,
then, of their common country, and the charity of their cow_

mon faith, he implored noble lords to forget their mere poli-
tical predilections in the cause of education,—that is, of the
only means of rearing up a moral and religious wad. truly Chris-
tian generation in Ireland. The cause was too sacred to be
viewed tluough the mists of party or sectarian distinction
(Hear, hear,) and the state of Ireland, too, loudly called out
for so unexceptionable a cure for avoidable delay to be sanc-
tioned. It was any thing but just, it was any thing but feel-
ing, in the present state of that unfortunate country, to de-
nounce the exertions of those who were endeavouring to bene-
fit her. What right had the noble lord to say that they did not
endeavour to protect the interests of the Protestants ? and wlvo
right had he to put himself forward as the sole advocate of their.
rights ? He (Lord Plunkett) did not know that the noble
lord's pretensions were superior to his, or that the noble lord
had done the Protestant church in Ireland greater service tha.
he (Lord Plunkett) had done. Such aspersions were the off-
spring of rank and bitter jealousy. He could assure the noble
lord, that in supporting the new system of education, he did
so in the conviction that he was supporting the interests of the
Protestant church; and he would remind him at the same time,
that one way of causing detriment to those interests was by ob-
stinately and pertinaciously attempting to substitute in its stead
a system at direct variance with the sanction of the legislature.
(hear, hear.)
The Earl of WICKLOW could not help thinking, that the no-
ble and learned lord had directed his speech, not against the
statement made by his noble friend who had introduced the dis-
cussion, but against speeches which had been delivered in the
house on former occasions when the subject of education in Ire-
land had been under discussion. The noble and learned lord
bad made no statement to the house on the present occasion as
to the numbers who were in course of education under the new
system; but when the system had been only two months in ex-
istence, he had come down to the house furnished with a vast
accumulation of statements to show the progress which had been
made under it. If it were determined to apply a grant of mo-
ney for the education of only one class in "Ireland, then, he
should say, let it be applied to the Catholics, who, being the
poorer and more numerous class, has not the same opportunity
of prosecuting their education. He should say, that if govern-
ment refused to institute the most rigid inquiry into the subject,
they were obtaining the money granted by Parliament under
false pretences.
The Earl of GOSFORD denied that there was anything in the
institution of the schools established under the new system
which should preclude the attendance of Protestants, and con-
. tended, that where the system had been fairly tried it had suc-
ceededlo the fullest extent.

Lord CLONCURRY agreed with the noble earl, (Wicklow,)
that there should be a liberal grant for the education of the Ro-
man Catholics of Ireland; but he begged to remind him, that
the new system was founded on the principles originally pro-
fessed by those who advocated the Kildare-place Society.
The Marquess of LANSDOWN thought the most rev. prelate
who had addressed the house had paid the Protestant church
but a poor compliment when he invoked the danger of Protest-
ant children coming into contact with their Catholic brethren,
as if the mere contact for four days in the week were to be suf-
ficient to shake the religious principles in which they had been
educated. He should be sorry to admit that the scheme of
common education was impracticable; an admission of that
nature would be incompatible with the principles of conciliation
and political expediency which ought to be acted on towards
Ireland. He would not, therefore, consent to abandon the sys-
tem without giving it a full and ample trial, for he thought the
inhabitants of Ireland ought not to be separated by a stronger
line of demarcation than existed at present.
The Earl of RODEN, in reply, stated that his great ground of
objection to the system was, that it had a direct tendency to en-
courage Roman Catholicism. He was a friend to toleration,
but there was a vast difference between toleration and encou-
ragement. He was sorry, therefore, to hear that the schools
under that system were increasing.
The petition was then received, and the house adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

MONDAY, MARCH 18.

Shortly after 12 o'clock this'day the Speaker took the chair.
Sir G. SKIPWITH brought up the report of the committee on
the London and Birmingham railway.—Ordered to lie on the
table.