The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-05 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

Oxford had observed, that very serious duties would devolve on
thosetornmissioners who were not sworn servants of the King,
as in them would be vested the power of superintending church
property in Ireland, which now rested with the Crown. They
certainly would be armed with authority to suspend appoint-
ments in cases where duty had not been performed for three
yearsTriar to the passing of the bill. Some new powers would
undoubtedly he given to them, but not such powers as the
Crown now possessed for superintending the church property of
Ireland. The hon. member had asked, what was to become of
the church patronage that now belonged to the see which it was
proposed to abolish ? It was the intention of the government
that such patronage should remain with the bishop, to whose see
the diocese that was no longer to possess a bishop should be an-
nexed. It-was not intended, as the hon. member seemed to
think; to place that patronage at the disposal of the Coininis-
sioners. The commissioners would not have any of those
powers which the honourable gentleman seemed to imagine
would supersede the authority of the crown. No intention of
the kind existed. The uniting of sees had not only been
done in Ireland, but frequently in England, by acts of parlia-
ment: There was a remarkable instance of the union of-iNest-
minster with the see of London, which took place wiih the ap-
probation of Cranmer and Ridley. Certainly this alteration as
to the levying of the church 'cess would impose a burden upon
the church, but then it would be for solely ecclesiastical pur-
poses. He did not feel it necessary to go further at present,
confining himself, as he did, to the resolution immediately be-
fore them. When the other resolutions came successively un-
der consideration, he should go into the details connectedwith
them.

Sir R. PauL said, that it was plain that the ecclesiastical un-
salaried commissioners would be frequently called away to the
performance of Other duties; that they would be frequently
called to London, to attend their parliamentary duties in the
House of Lords, and that therefore the whole practical Work of
the commission would devolve upon those salaried commission-
ers who held their situations at the pleasure of the Crown.
(Hear, hear.) He should therefore reserve to himself the right
of objecting to the granting of salaries to those commissioners.
„Ile should now proceed to the main subject of the debate
whiCh'
,had been raised by the second and third resolutions.
The' second resolution regarded the abolition of first fruits.
and prOvisiOn of a substitute in lieu thereof ; and the third
resolution proposed the absolute abolition- of vestry cess.
Now, it did appear to him that it would have been a wiser and a
better course of proceeding that the abolition should take place
who the substitute had been provided. In the way they were
proceeding at present*they Were only re-acting the part which
they had acted last session, when they decided on the "extinc-
tion" of tithes, without providing a substitute; and see what had
bees the result! The second resolution provided that any loss
which the abolition of the Church cess would occasion should be
proVided for by a tax to be levied separately upon the clergy of
Ireland. The noble lord in his first speech, in introducing the
former bill, had calculated the vestry cess, the abolition of which
was contemplated, at £60,000 or. £70,000 a year, and he said
then that it would not be necessary to provide a substitute to a
greater amount. - Surely the noble should recollect that there
were two species of vestry cess—one, from the levying of which
in vestry Catholics were excluded, and which was appned to the
maintenance of the church, and other ecclesiastical purposes.
When the noble lord proposed to lay a tax upon the clergy, he
should know the amount of that cess for which the said tax was
tot?e a substitute. (Hear.) Surely, if they wished to attach
the principles of permanency to the reform which they were
about to effect, they should go through all those preliminary con-
siderations by which any thing like justice could be had. lie
was not one of those who thought that the coronation oath pre-
sented an insuperahle obstacle to grantin the great measure
of Catholic emancipation. Though lie should always be as stre-
nuous as any man for upholding the privileges of the Crown,
yet:he did not think that all the privileges which existed in 1688
ought necessarily to be maintamed. The right hon. baronet
then again alluded to the state of the Irish clergy, which he de-
scribed as melancholy in the extreme. It was a disgrace to the
country, he observed, that so many of the Irish clrgy should
be dependent for their subsistence on eleemosynary aid. No
rearm:in the church, he was confident, could bei)ermanent un
less it were founded in justice, and he therefore hoped the. house
would reject the proposition laid down in the second resolution,
inasmuch as it was contaminated by principles of paltry and
unprofitable injustice.
Lord J. Itussiad. contended that the only object the govern-•
merit had in view in proposing the measure was, to maintain
the church in Ireland. The plan proposed by government did
not go further than the necessity of the case required, and he
repeated it was calculated to consolidate rather than to weaken
the interests of the church in Ireland.

Mr. GOULLIVILN rose to address the house, but the calls for an
adjournment were so loud and general that the hon. gentleman
thought fit to resume his seat.
Mr. SHAW then proposed that the first resolution should be
agreed to, as there was no difference of opinion regarding it,
and that the discussion on the second resolution should be ad-
johrned till this day.
Lord ALTlione said he had no objection to .that arrange-
and the first resolution was accordingly put and agreed
to, and the discussion adjourned till to-morrow (Tuesday).
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, after
which the house adjourned at half-past 1 o'clock.
TUESDAY.

..Soon after 12 o'clock the SPEAKER took the chair.
"A message from the House of Lords tiunounced that their
lnidships had agreed to the Commons' amendments in the Dis-
trirbances Suppression (Ireland) Bill, and to several private
bills.
On the motion of Mr. O'CONNELL the Dublin and Kingston
Railway Bill was read a second time arid ordered to be com-
mitted, and at 3 o'clock the Speaker left the chair.

The SPEAKER resumed the chair at five o'clock.
SOUTHAMPTON BOUOUGH ELECTION.

~Lord.ltonr.UT GROVESNOR presented the report of the com-
mittee appointed to try the merits of the petition against there-
turn of James narlow Hoy, Esq., as a burgess for the borough
of Southampton. It stated that Mr. Hoy was not duly elected,
and ought not to have been returned; but that .I.
Esq., was duly elected, and ought to 'have been returned to Par-
liament.

On the motion of Lord R. GR OSVENOR, the Clerk of the Croton
was ordered to attend the house to-morrow, to amend the return.

HERTFORD BOROUGH ELECTION.

Mr. BERNAL reported frbm the Hertford election committee,
that Lord Viscount Ingestrie and Lord Mahon were not duly
elected, .and ought not to have been returned; that the election
for the borough was void; and that neither the petition Mir the
opposition to it was frivolous or vexatious. The hou. member
also stated, that he was further directed by the committee to re-
port that it appeared to the committee that bfibely and treating
had prevailed in the borough previously to and during the late
.election. He then moved that the minutes of the proceedings
of the committee and the evidence be laid before the house.—
.Ordered. _ _

The hon. member then gave notice, that he would to-morrow
move that no new writ be issued for burgesses to serve for the
'borough of Hertford before the'l6th of April.

BOROUGH OF DUNDEE.

Mr. klumu moved a new writ for the bUrgh of Dundee, in the
oom. of,George KinlOch, Esq., 'deceased. The hon. gentleman
raccompanieu his motion with a brief eulogium on the late mem-
ber for his consistency and perseverance as au advocate for re,
,form, and for his diligence the discharge of his dudes during
the 'short period he had sat in the house.—The motion 'was
agreed to.