The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-07-31 00:00:00

COI ONIAI. TIMBER DI;TIES.

Mr. Em ert TENNENT rose to present a petition against the
equalisation of the discriminating duty. ou Canadian and Baltic
timber (rola the Chamber of Commerce of Belfast. lie had felt
it his duty to call the especial attention of the house to this pe-
tition by a notice on the book of his intention to present it On
-that clay, as well from that respect 'which he owed to it, as
emanating from a body whose duty it was to watch over the in-
terests, and who represented the great mass of his constituents,
as because the petition contained not the mere speculative ideas
of political theorists, but the sound and practical Opinions of ex-
- perienced and intelligent ntercharits and men of business. if
there was one spot in the kingdom whose sentiments on this
subject, froth i:s extensive intercourse and intimate relations
with Canada, should be entitled to more weight than another in
that house, it was the town from which this petition'emanated,
carrying on, as it did, a trade with our colonies in North America
more extensive than that of any ort in Ireland, and surpessed
only by a few iu Great Britain. lie referred nut only to its im-
portance as an outlet for emigration, but to the number and
tonnage of its shipping employed in the importation of timber;
to the extent of which trade in reality that extraordinary emi-
gration was chiefly indebted for its facilities. The petition, after
stating that the present import of North American timber into
the United Kingilinn was equal to 1,000,000 of loads per annum,
proceeded to show that the trade was carried on by British ship-
ping aiuue, fitted out by British capital, and giving employment
to British seamen, and creating a market for British produce to
the amount of upwards of i:2,(200,00U sterling per annum, whilst
on the other hand the European timber brought into this country
was carried exclusively in foreign bottoms, manned by foreign
Seamen, and tusk away none of our manufactures to any extent
in return. ( Hear, hear.) The petitioners expressed their dread
f the effects which any reduction of the duty on Baltic timber
might produce on the current of emigration, tic well as on the
interests of British shipping generally,- and then concluded by
praying that if the Legislature in its wisdom saw fit to introduce
any iu the existing duties, no reduction should be
male in those on Baltic timber, without a concurrent diminu-
tion on the produce of Canada, so as still to preserve the existing
proportioabetweeu them, conceiving that a change on any other
principle must be injurious to their trade, destructive of their
shipping, and highly prejudicial to the progress of emigration.
(fietie-.) To these general observations of the petitioners he
(Dlr. ReTeunent) Was not disposed to add any lengthened oh-
servationeuf his ()en. Whether or not the petitioners had ac-
curately stated tin: amount of our imports and expints from Ca-
nada or not, ke was net immediately prepared to say; but if the
former did Out amount to 1,000,000 loads of timber per annum, he
(Mr. E. Tennent) was aware that they were at least considerably
above fikto,ooo, an amount which of itself engrossed upwards of
400,000 tons of British shipping, and gave employment to 22,000
seamen, nearly equal to the number enapite,ed iu the Royal
Navy of Etiglaud. (Hear. heat.) The iniportauce of this
branch (Amur commerce could not, in fact, be rated too highly;
in Liverpool alone it occupied between 300 aud lea vessels of
141,000 1.0113 s Iwifthels ; it gave Ud uu uunU4l ()inlet I;rar between
feasueekteej and 43 000.0.. A) at least of our manufactures, avid a
fur emigration which year by year drained off upwetds of
1,5,000 of our ietlitudent population. (II ear, beer.) C9lnpared
with the impirrtauee of this trade with Cauada, what was the
value of all our intercourse with all time countries bordering nu
time Baltic? Even previous to the year IKV, up to which period England was almost exclusively supplied with timber hum that
qiietter, our imports iu nu nue year amounted to une-bait the
quantity which we new draw annually from Canada, (hear,
hare) amid tie to our exports in return, the whol' Baltic never
took titan us more than £lelo,ooo worth in any oue year ; foe,
-fifths ut this was in cutttai twists. Ott what principle, then,
were we to SAC! nice Our present invaluable trade with our ciiiu-
uieis for the sake of' aggrandieiug our niii them ueighboura ?
-Meer, hear.) It was all very well fur traders its theory and
putitieal economy uierelmaros to icier to the Rabin's or mire-
:Ara:tied competition- -to sipped to their reciprocity systems and
treaticeof trade ; but it was somewhat immure difficult to bring
....envie:than, to the minds of uur owners or si.ippiabr, whoop these
lauciful expeinuente were already rapidly redticing to a mere
coasting trade. and whumu the Pru.ssiatis anti the very Baltic
merchants had already hustled omit ot' utmost the entire carrying
trade of the Nei tnein Sens. (Hear, hear.) ftes regards our
shipping interests at home, any alteration which would hevethe
effeet of bringing European procure into direct competition
with that of Canada must be regarded with the most serious
alarm auil appreimensiou, as its first amid mostfatal injury will be
iastlicted mutt ouise:ves. The preference will of course be given
in the inerket to .Baltic timber, as well from its quality 'as from
.its faciiite of access, and as a natural consequence the importa-
tion trout Canada meat cleciiiie mu prnpurmitiu as its competitor
.advances. Wilde then is to become of our shippiug ? ‘4 e can-
not
.convert them to other purposes, because being of a Peculiar
•saustruetiuu Linden iticourenieu: tonnage, wetly of them ranging
from WU to 750 toes, they will be unlit fur other branches of
,trade. (clear.) We cannot apply them to the new trade with
the Balti.e because there our iivuls in Prussia aud the North
- van outdo us in every particular, since they can find their ves-
sels, their seamen, and stores MI terms white( we can never
hap; to cumpete with them. But even supposing that we could
still successfully compete with them under the new system, the
vast majority or our shipping would be Useless. The great
dlseauce we have-atepreseut to betel, mid the few voyages we can
make In the year, compel us- at- present -tea azutirniuti the vast
tieet of inercheamineu'which are constantly crossing the Atlan-
tic to Canada; but When that distance is sheiteued by more
than one-half, when we eau make five or six voyages to the
Baltic ill the same time that a e eau now make tviu to the St.
Lawrence, it must be evideut that, eveu supposing us totally
above competitiou, one-nail' a one ;hipping .must inevitably be
thrown out of employment. Hear, hear.) As to the remain-
der, we all know what the result would' be of a rivalry with our
mmtmtaxeri Rue eaatly.equipped rivals in the nertheru seas, And
white in such Sum eyeut, was to become of the twenty thousand
who would inevitably be thruwu out of employment by such a
•ratiolution of trade ? This was suieiy a matter worth serious

investigation hefor4 we ventured on any experiment which
might by pestibiluy have seek' an effect. (Hear, lit:tr.) But
there was anuthet consideration which ei.4.7.gested itself on this
ipeestion, the result of which he ( Mr. E. Tenuent) was 'let very
clearly satisfied about. The whore theory on which they were
called upon Li make this change resolved itself into this —that
the p..opie should be supplied with such commodities as they
wanted from any country which ruuld supply them on the
vhcupest terms. Now, before they hastened to destroy one
market with which the country was at present pretty well sane-
ied, they had a right to he shown that the one which was offered
to lieu of it would really be (Maud to lie the cheapest as well as
the best. The °eject of the free-trade advocates at present was,
he (Mr. E. Teunent) believed, to reduce the duty on the tim-
ber or both countries to the same level; but, it the superior
timber of the Baltic wield be introduced at the swine cost ha the
inferior pitaluce of Canada, the Canadian trade. would soon
settee Altogether: If a renmant of it survived at all, it would be
the import of the red pine, which might in some degree vie in
„quality with the Memel; but the ordinary American timber
would cease to be introduced. Now it Iva, well known that
there were purposes tor which this inferior timber answered as
well, it itca. better, than materials of a better description; but
when it was no longer to be procured, we should, of course, be
compelled to make use of the other at probably double the price.
This may nut, perhaps. be so important e coniideration iu Eng-
land, where capital was more abundant. and whete besides the
poerer elaoes had a cutnparative resource in the
growth of low-
native wood; but in Ireland, where we
have nu such
substitute, the case was widely different, and the effects of a
stoppage in the import of cheap colonial deals would be felt with
corresponding force, since in that country the alteration pro-
posed would thus have the inevitable effect of increasing, instead
of diolinishine, the price of timber most generally consumed.
It was not, therefore, without cause that he (Mr. t. Teunent)
was induced to detiht the result of this experiment, at least in his
own country. And the petitioners had very properly alluded to
another topic in which Ireland was materially interested, viz.
the effects of the alteration which was threatened upon emigra-
tion to esnada. This was to every quarter of the empire a
matter of the rnnst vital moment.- Our emigrants from British
ports to the British colonies in America were rinse upon
60,0(X) per annum. From the very town whence this petitiou
eyes forwarded alone there were, last,, year, between B,OOU and
9,000 pascengerifor the Citnadas and New Brunswick, and the
retie at.which tnese passengers were carried, was from £3 to £4
each, and. !Is (Mr. retptetat)• hack undereteod th;tt, this season
and the last, passengers from Liindondeiry to the nearest Ame-
ricau settleincut had been taken out fur so trilling a sum as

thirty shillings. (Hear, heai.) And how. was it that the
owners Of shipping were-enabled to carry them out upon such
terms'? Solely in consequence of that very trade which it was
now threatened to destroy. Theyessels which were despatched
for colonial timber, rather than sail in ballast, would carry their
cargo of emigrants for ahnost any terms that would cover the
bare cost of transport, and the competition was so great, that
the fares were reduced to the trifle which he had mentioned.

(Hear, hear.) It was thus we were enabled to drain off that
vast superabundant and impoverished population with which
Ireland was overrun, and to transport to Canada that enormous
amount of labour which would otherwise Lind its way into this
country, and inundate England with pauperism. All this
would be inevitably destroyed by the contemplated change in
the timber trade, since vessels for the sole purpose of carrying
emigrants, without the ulterior object of bringing home pro-
duce, could only take them out on such terms as the impover-
ished settlers could never afford to pay. (Hear, hear.) But
other causes trader the same system, if the contemplated change
were effected, would produce the same result of checking emi-
gration. Canada herself would no longer afford the attraction
—she could no longer hold out occupation and support for the
uumnfloyed labour which now finds a settlement on her shores.
Such a measure would involve Canada herself in difficulties and
poverty-, from which generations might pass ere she would be
fully extricated. Besides the floating capital of the Canadian
houses which is now embarked in the timber trade, and which
could only be withdrawn at a positive loss, in order to he in-
vested in such other pursuits as the present limited resources of
the colony would afford, what was to become of the fixed capi-
tal which was there embarked in that trade, and expended in
saw-mills and machinery of every description Z Not less tnan
£IXI,OOO is at present stated to be so employed, and all this,
no insignificant sum in a distant colony, must at one blow be
sacrificed, were a change in the trade to be effected. (Hear,
hear.) What, in such an event, was to become of the hosts
of British emigrants who now find abundant employment as
lumberers in cutting and dressing, and floating the timber down
the St. Lawrence and its tributaries for exportation? He
.might be told that they could still betake themselves to agricul-
tural labour--but even for this there could be but slow demand,
where the destruction of the timber trade had ceased, as it would
cease to give an impulse to the clearing of the lands. We all
know at present the state of feeling towards this country which
pervaded Canada, even io the midst of our protection of her
commerce; She took but little pains to conceal her dissatisfac-
tion at not receiving still further favours; was it then wise still
further to provoke such a spirit by threatening the destruction
of the only profilalde branch of commerce on which she rested
her dependence? Was it wise to drive her to seek a still closer
attachment than she already manifested towards the United
States? (hear, hear.) It was a portion of 9ur policy as a
nation to afford support and protection to our colonies and our
dependencies? We had strainei every nerve to maintain and
to perpetuate that protect iou to our colonies in the West Indies,
by guardin their sugars from foreign competition in our own
markets. All that he asked for Canada was, an extension of
_

the same fostering protection, a policy which was the more in•
cumhent on us, since we could not ktillict the injury, now con-
templated on Canada without giying.a Mow ts, our own shipping
and marine which no length of time might be sufficient to
remedy. He bad to apologise to the House for the length 'to
which these observations had run—( Hear, hear)—but 'the
subject, he felt, was one of the most vital moment to the nation
at large, and his sense of its importance to his'QLVII constituents
peculiarly, had impelled him to use every exertion to discharge
to the uttermost the duty which they had entrusted to hint of
conveying the expression of their sentiments fully to the
House. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. FORBES presented a similar petition from Grangemouth.
The comprehensive and convincing speech of Mr. Teunent 10.
hint nothing further to sav on the subject.
Mr. B. Hoy gave his full support to the petitions.
Mr. Sergeant JACKSON had to return the member for Belfast
(Mr. Emerson Tennent) his thanks on behalf of his constituents
and the merchants of the South of Ireland genererlly for the
very able and powerful arguments'with which he had supported
their cause. (Hear, hear.) Any alteration such as that
threatened could not fail to prove the ruin of the interests of
the city with which he was mere immediately connected.
Mr. l'EssE complimented the member for Belfast on the
eloquent statement he had made.

WOLVERIIAUPTON INQUIRY.

Mr..TiinaNgtv complained that the papers which had been
laid on the table some time ago, relating to the Wolverhampton
inquiry, were not yet read• to be placed in the hands of mem-
bers. It was his intention to call the attention of the house to

the results of that inquiry, but he was prevented by the delay of
the papers. He did not se why, when a printer received such
sums for printing fur Parliament, he could not make an effort
to have those papers ready in the lung lime since which they
had been on the table. 1-1 c hoped they would not be longer
delayed.

(Attie said hereditament, sums of money, chattels, securities for
RI on ey, and other personal estate,"— in what way ?. Why,
`,for such uses and trusts respectively as they were subject to
before the passing of this act."' This certainty was anything
but confiscating those estates. Ile thought, however, that with
respect to this part of the measure. some further guards might
be introduced with advantage; and he had actually brought in
a bill which, by the favour of their lordships. had been read.
a first time (he wished it to go on with the'present measure,),
that appointed such a tribunal as would render it utterly iinpos-
sible for one-twentieth of the abuses of charitable funds to be
perpetrated which had occurred muter the old corporation sys-
tem.

A great number of petitions having been presented from other
places,
Lord WitatiNcueez
.presented a petition against the bill
from the mayor, burgesses, and common council of Liverpool.
The petitioners complained that the measure would not only
affect their interests, but the interests of the town generally.
By their charter they were entitled to certain tolls and other
privileges, of which this bill would deprive them. They stated
that the stipends of the clergy-were now paid out of the corpo-
rate funds and other endowments, which, if this measure passed,
would be taken out of their hands, and those stipends would not
be so well secured as they were at present. If the bill passed,
they expressed a hope that some measure would be devised for
supporting the clergy in a proper manner. In conclusion, the
petitioners prayed to be heard by counsel against the bill.
Vitleount Sritarsnenito also moved that the corporation .of
Coventry he heardyy counsel against the bill at the bar of their
lordships' house. •
Viscount MaLnourtrie opposed the motion. The bill was
one of generat policy, and hot one founded on the report of the
commissioners. Its object was to alapt the'governing body of
towns and boroughs to the enlarged condition of those places
which had outgrown their old institutions. They wanted to put
an end on general principles to a system which gave great dis-
satisfaction and impeded improvement. The bill was in spine
respects like the reform bill, which disfranchised some and en-
frauchised others; vet no counsel was beard at their bar against
that bill, no counsel hail been heard against the Scotch burgh
reform bill, nor against the disfranchisement of the Irish forty-
shilling freeholders. Therefore on these general grounds he
submitted that there was no ground for hearing counsel on. the
present occasion, unless, indeed, their lordships waisted to defeat
the bill by delay. (No, no, and hear.) He had no idea of say-
iug that this was their intention; but, if it was, their best course
would be .to hear counsel. If, on the contrary, they did not-
mean to defeat it—if they wished to give the measure a bona
fide consideration, to afford it fair play, they would, as he now
begged them to 'do, refrain front hearing counsel at the bar.
He assured their lordships that he held them in the utmost re-
spect; that, casting aside all idle clamour, he believed and
knew that their authority was well fixed, their dignity well
assured, their rights and powers well and perthanently settled;
but, however great and undoubted might be their dignity, their
powers, their rights, and authority, it was impossible that in
these timei they could be so fixed, assured, and settled that they
could afford to 'trifle with them or to trifle with such a subject.
Therefore be implored their lordships not to listen to the pro-
position, het go into the discussiei, of the at toice.
The Duke of WiiLLINGTON: agreed with the noble.lord in
thinking that nothing could be more unworthy of the House of
Lords than to trifle with such a subject, and more particularly
when it was one which affected the property and the privileges
of his Majesty's sulijects. He wished the noble lord hadOvoided
charging the house with delay or the desire to create delay in
pioeeeding with this measure; for if there ever was a question
with which a body of men had evinced their anxiety to proceed
with the greatest possible celerity that was consistent with safety,
it struck hint it was the present question. lu point:of fact, the
evidence on which they were to proceed to legislate had only
been for a few days On their lordships' table, so that he appre-
hended that not one in ten of their lordships had been vet able
to peruse it, and he indeed doubted if many of them had yet
received the last report. Yet, notwithstanding this, not the
slightest desire had been displayed to delay the discussion on
the second reading or the suusequent proceedings upon the sub-
ject. For his own part, if the noble lord bad not thought pro-
per to make such a charge upOn their lordships' house, he was
ready to have come tot ward with a proposition respecting the
mode of hearing counsel, which would have prevented all delay
against which the slightest murmur could be raised, while at the
same time the people of England would be satisfied that justice
had been done to the subject. The noble lord had stated that
the measure was one of general policy, and that it was not a
measure founded on the report of the commissioners. Ile (the
Duke of Wellington) admitted that it was a matter of general
policy, but must at the same time contend that it was founded
on the report—on the report, of the truth of which the parties
concerned complained violently, and prayed that their lordships
would hear their complaints on this subject at their bar. The
noble lord (Melbourne) had been pleased to compare this mea-
sure with that for the disfranchisement of the 40s. freeholders;
he forgot that in their case the question had been mooted three
or four years previous to the passing of the measure, that ample
time had been allowed, and that it was admitted in that beuse
that they werasheeless and injurious as an electoral body. This
being the case, it was natural enough that they should not be
heard by counsel at the bar. As to the reform hill, it was true
that by it many men were affected in their property and inte-
rests, and they were not heard at the bar by counsel, but there
were other precedents iu which parties interested were so beard.
There was that of the heritable jurisdiction in Scotland, on which
counsel was heard, both on the question of the second reading
and on the question of going into committee. He had been
ready to offer, in order that there might be no-delay, that sup-
posing the house agreed to the'second reading, mullet 'should
be heard on the question of going into committee. He was
ready to commence the discussion on the following day after
the arguments of counsel had been heard; and he must say
that the charge made by the noble lord against every body who
might think that the corporations should be heard by counsel
of wishing to cause delay was unjust, and he would go a step
further and say that it was not quite founded on fact. Their
object Was to offer no unnecessary uelay, and to extend equal
justice to all men. But as to the question of going into com-
mittee on this bill, it could not be entertained. It could not be
expected that any body could be prepared to do so for sonic
days. There was no reason why counsel might not be heard
from day to day, and their. loidships, after haying' heard them,
in the coursQof next week could go into committee. '
Lord Bu aerthavi was Satisfied that his noble friend (Mel-
bourne)_ had no intention of imputing to their lordships a desire
Jo defeat the bill—his object was to dissuade them from pur-
suing course which less candid judges much considered had that
object in view, His noble friend was_ apprehensive that if
• counsel were to be heard, the matter would be interns:Liable.
They had already twenty petitions to be heard by counsel, and
if they heart counsel in one case, they would assuredly have
similar pet thins from the 200 corporations affected by this mea-
sure—if they allowed two 'counsel only to be heaid on each
e,tse, they would then have to hear 40) speeches, at an aver age
Of four hours to a speech. (Hear, and a laugh.) Even with
this the parties would not be content—evidence must be heard,
exaudued, cross-examined and re-examined. With this prospect
they had better decide that the house should sit for two years, or
throw out the bill at once. Suppose they allowed two counsel
to be heard against the principle of the measure. Now it all
the corporations agreed to consolidate their. opposition—to
fight, as it were, under one banner—the affair would he quite
simple. Let them, he would say, for instance, take his learned
friends Sir Charles Wetherell and Mr. Knight. He named
them because they were gentlemen of great learning and ability,
and because they had the confidence of their countrymen.
(Hear, hear.) I.et them be brought to the bar, and if their ar-
eoteents prevailed, well and good;• but certain was he, that if
they could not convince theirlordshipa nobody else could. But
even yet there was another difficulty. Why might not petitioners
pray to be heard iu favour of the bill? .Freemen romplained
not that they were deprived of advantages, political end other-
wise, themselves, but that these advantages were extended to
others. Why should nut, then, others their fellow-citizens
have an opportunity of endeavouring to make good their claim
to a participation in those advantages ? The uuble lord next
alluded to the money which had been spent amongst the free-
emu at (we believe) elections for Liverpool; at oue .C40,0(X), at
another £Bl,OOO, and he concluded by referring to the fact of
counsel having under • goud mauageineut been heard on the
question of the abolition of slavery without undue delay, and by
stating that he had no objection to have two counsel heard con-
earning the principle of the bill. but he protested against any
preposition which would admit of all the corporations being
heerd separately by counsel, aunt which would thus get rid of the
bill by a side wind".
The Earl of It weal thought that nothing could be .more ab-
surd than any attempt to get rid of this measure by delay. 1t
did not follow, bewever, that it would not be right to hear
• couueel. Its had listened with great satisfaction to the prop-
sitter] of the noble and teamed lord. If they were to hear
counsel from every borough or city on the principle of the bill,
there would be peat and inevitable delay ; but there was
tln-
thing to prevent them acceding to the noble and learned lord's
• proposition, which, from the way in which he hail stated it,
would not, lie t Lord Ripon) should hope, prove unacceptable
to the noble duke. tie must say for himself, that he considered
the freemen had much mute need to be heard by counsel on the
suhject of their pecuniary rights in ease or in raise than cut that
of their political rights. And if it could be so arranged that the
I eases of the petitioners could be censolidated, and, that there
should nut be a great and unnecessary waste of time, he thought
they were coaled to be heard upon the subject.
The Earl of Fa LsiouTii agreed with the noble earl that-the
bill might lie argued by two-counsel, but the various charges
Chuld Vat be dealt. with in tbe saute way. Tike petitioners had
been accused ; it was prolapsed to puuish them. Wlly should'
not they he allowed to defend themselves? Were they not
British subjects ? Ay, but, said the noble lord, the bill was not
founded on the report ; the inference frinn which would be, that
the petitioners were not accused, and therefore bad not A right
to deltoid themselves. True it wits ha had looked into the report,
and observed that the government had saved themselves from
quoting the report; but in the name of common sense, he asked
their lordships, if the bill were not founded on the teport, on
what was it founded, or what was the use of that commission,
on which so much of the public money had been expended?
With reepect to the report itself be had examined it, and must
sey that e more diagrac,efal mass of exaggeration, if not abselnte
falsification, had never been put upon the table Ulan), legislative
aescaiblv,
Lord 'Vitra excuree regretted the expressions which the
noble turd (Melbourne) had thought proper to uddress to their
lordships; he would leave it to the noble lord himself to consider'
if the troult of what tell from him was not a threat. ((lear,
hear.) Ile said their dignity, rights, pi ivileges, authority, were
now firth enough; but he intimated ''beware how you trifle
with them." It was Wu clear not to strike everybody there who
heard it (hear, hear), and he feared it would be equally plain
to everybody who read it elsewhere. (hear, hear.) As to tile
property of those corporations, they had acquired it by kinga'
charters :roil
:tby the wills or iudivicitta!s. It was thetas. If their
iotoshipe took It swats for miseouduct, these corporations had a
tight to be heard in their utt n defence; if not, they had a right
to be hearth to snow the injustice of the proceedings. The case
of tilt corporations of Scotland bail been quoted ; but he believed
they did petition to taw heard at the bar by counsel. But he
protested aeain,t going back to those times which immediatdv
succeeded the passing of the retorts bill—at least it was in lan
But whether there wan or was not a precedent fur depriving
men of their political rights without hearing them in their de-
fence, they surely should net he in like manlier stripped of their
pecuniary advantages, and theretbre, at least so far as these were
coneerneii, they should he heart! by counsel. lie by no means
wished her delay. Ile thought an arraneenient might he easily
enough made by which the corporations should choose certaiu
gentlemen ire counsel to state their case. It would be eou-
veuient, and it would save their lordships from the charge of
deciding on the question without hearing the parties who were
thereby affected. lie had rather however, that his noble friend •
had deferred his proposition until after the second reading.
The Earl of WINCIILLSgA saint that nothing could haVe in.
duced hint to present himself to their lordships that t ight but
his deep sense of the injustice and unconstitutional nature of
the ineesure which, if passed into a law, would affect all exist ine
privileges, all property, and all existing rights, from those of the
crown itself down to those of the lowest subject connected with
it. He could offer to his fellow-ceuntrythen no' stronger proof
of his desire faithfully to discharge his duty by them and to
guard their rights au'd privileges, which were as abar to themes
his own were to hint (Lord Winehibea„) than his having been
induced to appear among their lordships that evening, and
thereby aborting the' sincerity of the advice he had so often
4,4(0 there and:elseSehereaanamely; that every Englishraan
must ceosider'thet thiv thine had come when private feeliag must

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

1' ~~,

yield to public duty. Never, its his 'opinion, had their lordships,
who stated the guardians of property and of the public peace, to
discharge so important a duty as at present. (Hear, hear.)
From the bottom of his heart he could say that if the hilt went
only to the extent of communicating additional rights and pri-
vileges, upon constitutional grounds, to a great portion of his
countrymen—if the measure, going further, went only to correct
the abuSes which had crept into the management of property, he
would give it his insist cordial support. He found indeed that.
,these two principles were, to a certain extent, embraceasin the
measure, but it contained others to which he never could assent.
'lle never could agree to having any class of his fellow-country-
men 'deprived of privileges which" were relatively of as much
value to them as those he enjoyed were to himself'. They were
called too to alter the tenure of property, and they were asked
to make this change without any other evidence excepting that
of the report laid on the table—the report on which the bill was
founded—the report against the allegations in which the peti-
tioners prayed to be heat& Allusion had been made to the 40s.
freeholders; he had voted inalisir favour, and was therefore not
acting inconsistently now. in raising his voice in favour of jus-
tice, and a fair trial-for the freemen. Certainly he should divide
the house unless the noble lord (Melbourne) pledged himself
that he would not unneessarily destroy any of the existing rights
and privileges in csse or in posse. He had been anxious to record
his opinions on this occasion, and he was thankful to their lord-
shiiis for-hearing him. (Hear, hear.)
Lord BROUG n n at then proposed that the bill be read a second
time proforma ; thus it would gain a stage, and it would he
shown that no vexatious obstacles would be thrown in the way
of the measure. On the next and subsequent stages ft
would be understood that noble lords might vote just as they
pleased; they were nut to be at all pledged by the second read-
tug. The committee might then be put oil for a day or two
until counsel wore ready, and the corporations had agreed upon
whom they might select and prepared their cases.
The Duke o' CesterateAND begged it to be distinctly under-
stood that in agreeing to that propisition he did nut pledge
himself in favour of the principle of the measure.
Lord la .ti Mil:rise observed that the corporations petitioning
did not elaitit to be heard against the principle of the meesure,
but claimed to defend themselves at the bar of their' lordships'
house front the charges brought against them in the report of
the commissioners—charges involving neglect, abuse of privi-
leges and trusts, and non-performance of duties. The noble
viscount himself did not appear to have read the preamble of
his own bill, which ran in these words:—" Whereas, partly by
defects iu the charters by which the said bodies corporate have
been constituted, partly neglect and abuse of the privileges
by such charters granted and cqufinned to the inhabitants of
the said cities, towns, and boroughs, and partly by change of
circumstances since the said charters were granted, the said bo-
dies corporate for the most part have not of long time beep, and
are not now, useful and efficient instruments of local govern-
ment." If the noble viscount had made himself acquainted
with the preamble of that bill, he would have seen that neglect
and abuse foamed the foundation of the bill; and, according to
the plainest principles of justice, the parties against whom
.cliarges of that nature had been brought should be altiswed the
opporf,unify of stlatiug their defence, and of meeting the allega-
tions aid the charges of their opponents. It was well known
to their lordships that certain corporations had been selected as
the especial objects of those accusations ; the evidence against
them was garbled and unsatisfactory, and it was derived front
false and corrupt sources. Those were the grounds upon which
, they demanded to he heard at the bar; but a definite under-
standing should be come to us to the course to be posited
when counsel were at the bar; for, if they were now to be heard
on the principle of the bill, he could not suppose that they were
not also to be beard in committee aisainst the details of the
measure. It was obvious that the arguments of counsel would
occupy a great deal of time; but he did not see how their lord-
ships could refuse the hearing. Here was a bill which professed
to deal with 240 corporations, and it was presumed by some
noble lords that counsel ought to be refused them. 'fad the
'case been that of one corporation, did any noble lord attempt
to say that the privilege of being heard at the bar would be de-.
niecr? and when they ruse to the number of 240, did that weaken
the claim for a hearing—did the sweeping and comprehensive
character of the hill deprive those affected by it of the common
rights of justice? For these reasons, then, he should support
the proposition fur allowing counsel to be heard at the bar of
that house; and, beginning with Coventry, he should sity,that
the, corporation of that town had a right to be heard, not merely
in the first iustance against the principle of the measure, but for
the purpose of disproving the allegations and the charges con-
tained in the report of the conetuissiuners. Certain facts had
been stated, and certain recommendations made : if it came out
that those statements were without foundation, the result would
cover weh disgrace the particular gentlemen upon whose au-
thority they halt been made.
Viscount MELBOURNE wished to say a few words in explana-
tion. In the first place he wished to state that his opinion,
,which he expressed at the outset .ou the question they were
called on to decide, remained uuchanged. The propiniiiieu
which ho felt it his duty to resist was of this nature;—certain
petitions had beets presented from various boroughs; on one of
these a noble lord had moved that counsel be heard; to that he
could not agree, for if every one of those boroughs were to be
heard in succession, the proceeding would smother the mea-
sure; hut the proposal now made altered the grounds upon
which he had to make a decision. It was true that he. had ad-
dressed a strong admonition to their lordships. and should feel
it his duty to do so whenever he saw them falling into a course
likely to be prejudicial to themselves or the country at large.
Once more he would repeat, he was opposed to hearing counsel
at the bar; nevertheless, if the feeling of the house were decid-
edly in its favour, he should not offer an extreme opposition to.
anything which did not interfere with the speedy success of the
measure, and was therefore ready to agree to any reasonable pro-
position that might come from the other side of the house. His
hopes, however, of anything of that sort had been considerably
diminished by the speech which he had heard from a noble lord
opposite.. If one ccrporatiou established its right to be heard,
he saw no reason why the efforts of another should not be
equally successful, and in such an event he hesitated not to say
that the proceeding would he interminable. A certain number
of boroughs claimed to be heard by two counsel each; Bristol
and Liverpool by one each. Now, if every borough in the sche-
dule claimed equal rights, he confessed himself unable to see
when the proceeding might be expected to close. !teen the.
other hand; a fair and reasonable limit were placed Ist the hear-
ing of conbsel; taxa. that the object did not appear to be'-to delay
the progress of this bill, then lie should, pinhaps, be induced to
accede to that which otherwise he might feel it
Ihis duty' ti op-
peas, fur he was most anxious to attain the end in -view, 'tamely,
the accomplishment of the Menett re.
After a few words from the Earls of Mansfield and Harcwood,
Lord Psu N ka. r observed that the precedent of reform act
had been mentioned hv one side and objected to by the other
side of the house; it had been contended that the two cases were
dissimilar, that the one case involved a question of property,
and time other did not. At the union with Ireland one hundred
boroughs sere disfranchised.
A Noble Lord.—Not by this house.
Lord PsustKETT.—Was it attempted to be said that the pre-
cedent was on that account less in point? On that occasion
not tine of these corporations was 'were by counsel, although to
some of them compensation was granted. The noble duke now
appeared disposed to accede to a proposition which it was thought
might prevent that interminable scene of litigetion that the first
proposal could not fail to have had time effect Of producing. He
professed himself unable to see how it could be brought toe on-
elusion. All the boroughs were as well entitled to a hearing as
the corporation of Coventry. Persons were now in town who
represented the great body of the corporations; by those re-
preseutatives counsel might be chosen to appear at the bar of
their lordshipi' house ou behalf of the several corporations
named in the bill. It had been suggested that there might be
some difficulty in the'counsel applying themselves to each parti-
cular ease, the merits of no two of them being alike. It was au
error to suppose that many of the cases were not similar ; on
the contrary, he believea it would be found that they could be
classified in pretty large numbers, 'and nothing would be easier
than rum counsel to say that such and such principles apply to
ten or twelve, cud such other to twenty or thirty, and thus they
could be argued in divisions. That mode of proceeding might
not be familiar to noble lords unconnected with the legal pro-
fession, but it was of daily occurrence in the courts. Ile would
out saw that couusel ought to be confined to the principle of the
bill, but ho thought some such arrangement as he suggested
ought to be estop:ea reepectiug the details.
Lord I'llLc:Lit A LD contended that the precedent derived by
the noble and learned lord who spoke last from the history of
the umou was wholly inapplicable. Ile cc' taiuiy had not ex-
pected to find that nuLle and learned lord laying the foundation
of his precedent in that which he hail himself designated as the
most tudefeusible of all the acts of the Irish parliament. He
had told the house that 100 corporations had been disfranchised
without a heating, but he omitted to state that they had mot ap-
plied to be heard. (Cheers.) The case of the union was eitui-
lar to the reform; both dealt with privileges, not with property.
There was un pat tof the corporate property toadied; the powers
of c("P"atielts were not annulled—there was no extension of
rights—uu eiteries of property or pecuniary possessions affected.
(Hints.) Hoping as sincerely as the noble and learned fuel did
that the union was a final iiud irrevocable meitsure—joining
with bite in the wish that it might never be distut bed —believ-
leg that its repeal would be neither fur the advantage of Iretaiel
our the prompt' ity of the empire at large—concurring with him
that it woulit be neither for the honour of the King nom the safety
of the subject, he still could yield no assent to the other senti-
ments of .the noble and learned lord; he could not agree with
him, for example, That the precedent upon which he se much
melied was at all in point, fur the reason was plain enough why
afre Irieh beroughs did not claim to be heard by coepeta : they,
received each E 15,000 as compeusation to reconcile them to the
flieasere of disfranchisement, and that circumstance, he pre-
sumed, manila be considered sufficient to account for their not
having petitioned. lie deemed it not unfitting to make these
few remarks, just to let their lordships see the value of the pre•
Wisli
t
the
heeti
ileldrui.:ebguwahtuereucroeinfit,eetaidiedni
eacbcsylitea:t
yittu.eysi ande
of rthgfheoi
airwit
atehhtsaelersa
that step
tlitedl
petitioners
Ituf:.ehtrri
sis(ti noble
brnagine aoi,
friFurends
(oetiagraferhudeuiernanaet
he
e
, worthy mode than that would be of meeting a measure to which
they were adverse—a proceeding to which no consideration
would induce hint to become a party.
On the question that the bi.i be read a second time,
The Earl of FA 1.110 took that opportimity of putting a
question to the trouble viscount at the heed of his Majesty's
theu bill stow
t7tobilesildkoeuras consideration. government on a subject which was intiinately counected with
the table
st(tivwheuthedlr::tit.eoheotitnroble viscount (Melbourne) would have
ally objection to
kept by the ths
oet. hocuanis•didoefmkebo:nitiiiffisseiouiliteyr.s
Lond,fornnodn?ltetn'lh:iehliinvt:tdie.;:i.launlia:;;;::,)Cluiltru,ald)rrewtotril:i.sit!in:ita,iehcvilelt:),:ieauh:litiedjittin.iibrgipteualthiiriaevysvie:oeitttr.stheeitetthil.eirger:
rhei armingrn
proeeedings of the commission which, in his opinion, called for
some further itiformation.

Viscount MRtßoultNit said if such a hook existed, it could
only have been intended for the piirposes of the commissioners'
private reference, and therefore he could not see the propriety
of producing it.
The Earl of Fe Lstor contended that by
recent acts of par-
liament-under the pour law art, for instmce—it was specially
directed that a minute-book should be kept, iu which all pro-
ceedings of the board shonid be duly entered, It was, there-
fore, impossible to believe that no such book existed in tbe pre-
sent case.
Viscount MELBOURNE intililatell that if it did exist, he should
refuse its production.
'the Earl of FA imorrti.—Then let it Ao forth to the coun-
try, that us there must necessarily be a minute-Look kept by this
board of commissioners, the noble viscount positively refuses to
produce it. (Hear.)
'The. bill was then read a second time; it having been agreed
that counsel should be heat don Thursday Friday, and Satur-
day, at five o'clock, and the principle of the hill discussed on
the motion for going into committee.—Adjourned at 1) minutes
to nine o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—WIMNESDAT.
The ballot on the Carlow (county) election petition pre-
vented the gai!ery from being opened until after four o'clock,
when a great outolier of petit unA, were presented to the house.
THE LADIES' GALLERY.
Mr. G. BERKELEY, SITIICIEt cheers and laughter, brought up
the report upon the ladies' gallery. The hon. neither moved
that it do lie on the table. ( Loud cheers.) The hcn. member
thimatuved that it be printed. (Vociferous cheering.)
•- Hats coAcu CONTRACTS. •
Dir. WArtauxTOk oiled whether it wat ilite.ailed to ettatul