The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-12-03 00:00:00

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port they did not do so'from pure affection or favour to the peo-
ple of Liverpool.
Mr. Robert Gladstone remarked that he had been a mer-
chant in Liverpool thirty-eight years, and he or his house had
never given a sixpence as a bribe to a dockinaster. He made
this statement in reply to the assertion that the practice was
universal.
Mr. Brown replied that when he used the word " universal,"
lie only meant to imply that the practice was very-general, and
he was still of the same opinion. _

—ii;TCyiUSlVlorrall observed that many young men served
seven years instead of five, in order to be exempt from the town
dues. He considered the two extra years' service to be equiva-
lent to purchasing the privilege at an expense of £5OO or 1:600.
The Town-clerk here rose and commenced his statements in
reply to the allegations made against the Dock Trust. He was
sure that in the evidence of the acts themselves it would be ad-
mitted that the Corporation had no personal advantage in being
trustees of the Dock Estate, and that their anxiety, (no doubt
resulting from a wish to perform their public duty well as from
a view to their private interests) had always been for the pros-
perity of the town of Liverpool and the increase of its trade.
In the year 1582 there had been a great deal of litigation with
the opulent family of Molyneux, and the commissioners had
it upon their notes as a matter of fact, that these litigations
were terminated by the purchase of the lands, privileges, and
immunities, which the Corporation now enjoyed from that fa-
mily, on lease for a term of one thousand years. After this
purchase had been made the inhabitants of the town set to
work in right earnest, in making improvements for the general
benefit. They would see by the maps produced, with reference
to the town at that time, that there was a river flowing into
the Mersey called the Pool, which came in a north-easterly
direction, and they would see the situation of the Pool which
flowed along what is now Paradise-street, and other streets in
that neighbourhood. The data of the rise of Liverpool might
be taken from that time; and also the rise of many of the fami-
lies of its inhabitants. The present principal inhabitants of
Liverpool might, in fact, trace their successful ancestors from
that time, from which it would appear that many of them, from
small means and indefatigable industry, had been enabled to
procure that property which their successors now enjoyed.—
fhere were numerous instances of men whose fathers entered
Liverpool without a guinea in their pockets, who are now worth
thousands, and the same might be said of the town itself, which
had risen in wealth and importance in a similar manner.
He had before stated that the rise of the town commenced with
the projected improvements on the pool, at which time the ves-
sels coining into the port were much inconvenienced by the
smallness of the accommodations for them. At that period the
Corporation adopted means of so altering the poolothat vessels
might float at low water, and the first proceeding 'was to form
a canal, and the canals about London, especially those of the
Isle of Dogs, appeared to be.a model, and to possess the same
localities as the canal of Liverpool. When this plan was'first
originated the Corporation procured the superintendence of a
celebrated engineer, who was consulted on its formation. That
engineer settled in Liverpool, and from him had descended a
family now well-known-in the 'town, the steers. The result of
the engagement of this engineer was, that a plan was adopted
and acted upon, differing from the first, as it was found that the
evils complained of were not so much the want of floating docks
as the prevention of the encroachments of the tide. It was at
this time that the old dock was first made by an act of Par-
liament procured' for that purpose. Here he would remark,
that in the whole course of this inquiry all the acts of
Parliament which had been procured for the management
of the docks had been treated by the gentlemen of the
opposition as if they were of no authority or had never been
enacted. But, on referring to those acts, it would be seen that
the powers given to the Common Council were distinctly recog-
nised—such as, power to borrow money, and make such altera-
tions as were necessary • and although private acts of Parlia-
ment might be considered as acts for. the conveyance of
property, they had always been considered as the strongest
recognition of public or private rights, especially with reference
to recent transactions. Now, if these acts of Parliament were
not to be considered as binding upon the community, he did
not know what could be binding. It was not his intention to
discuss what was meant in the acts of Queen Anne or King
Charles, but the commissioners were at liberty to inspect those
acts. He recollected when an act was sought for by the Cor-
poration, the clause enabling them to erect public baths, was
objected to by the counsel before the Committee of the House
of Lords, to whom it was submitted, as was the practice before
the House (be meant Sir Edward Stacey), who stated that he
was sorry he could not admit that clause, although both the
merchants and the Corporation had agreed upon it—at which
time Sir Edward said, " I will tell you what Mr. Fos-
ter, I know you are very great men in Liverpool, and
that the Corporation may have agreed on one side and
the Dock Committee on the other, you must remem-
ber that You have the House of Lords to consult
as to whether these clauses shall become law or not," which
evidently showed his ideas of the weight and authority attached
to an act of Parliament. The Town-clerk here stated that he
was at a loss to know the course of inquiry which the commis-
sioners intended to pursue, and he begged to ask whether they
intended to proceed according to their printed list, which ap-
peared to bun (Mr. Foster) to have reference only to the pre-
sent existing Dock Estate, its revenues, and management, or
whether they intended to extend their inquiries into the state
of their constitution, under the acts of Parliament of 1811, or
those of King Charles and Queen Anne. He confessed that he
could not understand what was the question, on which they in-
tended to inquire. If it related to the present constitution un-
der the last act of Parliament relative to the Dock Estate, he
need only take up that act of Parliament and confine his re-
marks to the present Dock Committee, all particulars of which,
together with the management of the estate, he would.furnish
them with. If that be the object of inquiry, with reference to
the Corporation, he could state that that body had been great
benefactors to that estate, and no witness had been brought for-
ward to disprove that fact. All that he could collect from the
evidence of the merchants and rate-payers during the course of
the inquiry, was thatthe Corporation had done a great deal for
the Dock Estate, but that, in their opinion, they had not done
enough. He wished to ask the commissioners if it was the
existing constitution of the Dock Trust that was intended to be
the subject of inquiry ? If so, he should proceed to put them in
possession of the circumstances that led to the formation of the
present committee, which had been.altered from the act of 1811
to its present state. It would be seen by the evidence of Mr.
Myers, Mr. Gladstone, and others, relative to the present con-
stitution, that it was their, opinion that the constitution of the
Dock Committee would' be much better if it comprehended a
greater' number of merchants; but this was only a matter of
opinion, upon which many persons were at variance; and if
they were to take the vote of every inhabitant of Liverpool, it
would be found that there would be a much wider difference of
()Onion. Before he went any further, he would wish the com-
missioners to inform him what mode he should pursue.
The Commissioners stated that he (Mr. Foster) bad heard
the whole of the evidence, and must therefore be governed by
his own discretion.

Mr. Foster replied 'that he was quite ready to go through
the whole of the acts of Parliament from the commencement,
if it would afford them any 'amusement, but he thought that it
would be a waste both of his time and the commissioners', for
when he had done so it would only amount to this, that, on the
subject of the constitution of the Dock Committee, Mr. Radcliffe
would be of one opinion and he (Mr. Foster) of another.
At this period, the Rev. Augustus Campbell entered the
court, when Mr. Foster stated that as the name of Mr. Camp-
bell had been previously alluded to, he had taken the liberty of
sending for him, to answer any questions that the commission-
ers might think proper to put to him.
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson then asked Mr. Campbell the
particulars relative to the exchange of some land between the
Grammar and Blue Coat Schools, which had been stated by a
gentleman to be worth £18,733, about which several questions
had been asked by parishioners from the committee of the Blue
Coat School, of whom Mr. Campbell was one, without getting
a satisfactory answer more than, as it had been reported, that
Mr. Campbell had said "that possession was nine-tenths of the
law."

Mr. Campbell denied that he had ever made such an observa-
tion, and said that he had nothing to do with the exchange of
the land any more than having been a commissioner, under the
commission requiring that two clergymen and a barrister should
be members of it. He understood however thatbv means of the ex-
change both the schools had been much benefited. From the ques-
tions put to him it appeared, the impression on the public mind
was, that some corrupt bargain had taken place, which insinua-
tion he indignantly denied. There were two purchases made of
land from Mr. Askew and Sir John Tobin, but he was riot on
the commission at the time. Sir John was a friend of his, al-
though there was a time when he might have promoted his (Mr.
Campbell's) views by his vote, which he then gave to another
person.
Mr. Radcliffe, in reference to what had previously fallen from
the Town-clerk, said that it was not a part of his case to dispute
the validity of the acts of Parliament relative to the Dock
Estate, but it appeared to be the opinion of the Town-clerk that
these laws, like those of the Modes and Persians, wore unalter-
able. They wished to show that these laws required alteration.
He admitted that they were now perfectly binding, and instanced
alterations that had been made by the 51st of George 111. • He
argued the necessity of a distinct separation of the Corporation
and Dock Estates.

The Town-clerk was aware that parties could go to Parlia-
ment for au alteration in the Dock Estate acts, but he wished
to ask his Majesty's commissioners whether he was there to de-
fend the acts of Parliament sanctioned by the legislature ?
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson said that the Town-clerk
might Fo into the questiOn of the working of those acts.
The I'own-clerk then said that he had hoped that his time,
the time of the commissioners, and that of the public would not
have been wasted by going into an unnecessary detail of the
provisions of previous acts of Parliament; but, as it was their
wish to do so, he would proceed, and he begged to state that
the Corporation were aneious to go into the fullest investiga-
tion that the commissioners might deem necessary. By going
into these acts of Parliament., the commissioners would see that
there had never been any corruption in the management of the
Dock Estate, but that it has always been the desire of its ma-
nagers to benefit the town and commerce of Liverpool and the
inhabitants at large. (Cheers.)
Mr. Radcliffe here stated that if the Town-clerk thought that
they imputed any corruption to the Dock Committee he was
mistaken, for no charges of that kind had been, or would. be
made, as he was perfectly aware that there was no foundation
for them.

The Town-clerk here said that he thought Mr. Radcliffe and
himself would arrive at the same points, although by diffetent
roads. It appeared, by the documents, that it was about the
beginning of the last century when the Corporation began to
assume a settled appearance; and a table of the town dues in
the year 1700 shows them to have been about £2OO to £3OO per
annum,.but it appeared that they now amounted to about
£50,000 per annum. At this period (the beginning of the last
century) the Corporation were not only anxious to furnish ex-
tra accommodation to the docks, and to. promote the general
trade of the town, but they were also anxious td encourage the
trade in salt, which, from the earliest time, was considerable.
And, by the Corporation records, it appeared that the Common
Council were so satisfied of the advantages of this trade that
they actually applied and paid for the first act of Parliament for
navigating the river Weaver; and the result was, that to the
rates and duties imposed by this act, the county of Chester
owed that diminution in the county rates which they at present
enjoyed. That county also owed a great deal to the Corpora-
tion of Liverpool for the erection of their bridges, gaols, &c.,
and it was a singular fact, that the first bridge over the river
Weaver was paid for by the ancient Corporation of Liverpool.
It was by the act of Queen Anne (Bth Anne, cap. 12,) that pro-
vision was made for the erection of " a convenient dock or
besot' at Leverpoole, for the security of all ships trading to and
from the said port of Leverpoole ;" and the Common Council
gave the site of the land for the works with a view to promote
the interests of the town. Many allusions had been made to
the separation of the t-vo estates; but he should be glad to
know at what period the line of demarcation for the separation
of the two trusts should have taken place, neither had it been
stated. The only powe:s that could be exercised by the trust
were expressed in the acts of Parliament themselves, and he
defied any one to show an intention at any time on the part of
the trustees to exercise
powers which they were not authorised
to do by those acts. If the commissioners would refer to the act
of Queen Anne, they- would find that especial care was taken that
the money derived from the dock dues should be strictly appyo-
priated to the most legitimate purposes; fer by the ninth section
of that, act that subject was specifically referred to :—" And be
it fu they enacted, that all and every such sum and sums of
money, that shall be raised and received by the duties aforesaid,