The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-01 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

Emptriat Parlianunt.
HOUSE OF LORDS.

TUESDAY, FEBRUARY 26.
Petitions were presented—from Horsham, by the Duke of
Richmond, praying for a bill to regulate the hours of labour in
factories; and two others from the town of Derby, respecting
the violation of the sabbath ; Lord Dacre, the Marquess of
Stafford, and the Earl of Gosford, also, presented petitions pray-
ing for the abolition of negro slavery; which were ordered to
lie on the table.
Lord TEYNHAM presented a petition from the parish of St.
Michael and St. John, in the city of Dublin, praying for the
total abolition of tithes ; and another petition from the same
parish, praying, upon various grounds, for the removal of Mr.
Stanley from the situation of Chief Secretary for Ireland.
Upon the second petition being read,
Earl GREY said he apprehended that this was not a subject
that could be taken up by the house in the manner sought for
by, the petitioners, and that, in fact, the petition was altogether
irregular.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, that of course their lordships
should be anxious to throw their doors open as wide as possible
-for the reception of the petitions of the people, but in the in-
stance of the present petition, the prayer which it contained was
one that their lordships could no more comply with than could
the petitioners themselves. It would answer no good purpose,
therefore, to receive such a petition, and in truth it would be
only a mockery of the subjects' right petition to entertain one
with the prayer of which it would be impossible for their lord-
ships to comply. The petitioners might have called upon their
lordships to address the Crown, or to interpose their advice to
the Crown, for the removal of the right hon...gentleman, but in
its present shape, the petition was altogether irregular.
Lord TEYNI4AM said, under such circumstances, he would
withdraw the petition for the present from different parts of
Mayo, showing that that county was not in a disturbed state, so
as to require additional and coercive laws for the preservation
of the public peace. The first was from the inhabitaiits of the
town of Castlebar ; it prayed,for a repeal of the Union, vote by
ballot, and triennial Parlaaments.
The Earl of LIMERICK"‘ said that it was but yesterday that he
received a letter from his agent in that very
.part of the country
from which this petition came, informing him that it was in a
very disturbed state. He would appeal to the noble Lord-
liieutenant of Mayo (the Marquess of Sligo) as to the respecta-
bility and trust-worthiness of the authority to which he reterred.
Lord TEYNHASI presented two similar petitions from Balliva
and Aughagower, in the county of Mayo.
Lord Son, EL D presented a petition from Fairford, in Glouces-
tershire, praying for the'abolition of slavery.
Lord AUCKLAND presented a similar petition from a place in
Derby.
The Bishop of LINCOLN presented a similar petition from the
inhabitants of Huntingdon.
The Bishop of ROCHESTER presented a petition from Cap-
tain Brenton, It. N., in favour of the establishment of an in-
stitution or of institutions for the reception and education
.of
destitute cliildreii: "

TITHES

•
Lord KING said, that he had to present a p.etition to their lord-
ships connected with the subject of tithes in this country, and
although he had been frequently rebuked by certain members of
the right rev. bench for dilating upon this topic, he could not re-
frain in this instance from caning their lordships' attention to
the peculiar hardships of which the petitioners complained. The
petition came from a small parish in a remote district of the
country, the inhabitants of which amounted to 800, and who
subsisted entirely by agriculture and fishing. It appeared from
the petition, that there was not a more quiet or peaceable parish
in the kingdom, until, in an evil hour, his noble and learned
friend upon the woolsack presented the present rector to it. (A
laugh.) The petitioners stated, that in the course of the last
spring the rector laid claim to a tithe upon herrings caught in
the sea, which claim they alleged that there was no custom ex-
isting in the place to sanction, and it would be impossible to de-
scribe to their lordships the disturbance which the raising of inch
a claim excited in this hitherto tranquil district. It, in truth,
prodUced a complete tempest there, and he could only convey to
their lordships something like an idea of the subsequent state of
the parish, by quoting to them an expression employed in a let-
ter addressed to him on the subject,—namely, • that the rec-
tor had made a little Ireland of the parish." A " little Ire:
land," he (Lord King) believed it would be made, unless some-
thing was done to put an end to the agitation which the claim
set up by the rector had excited. One of the first effects of
his putting forward such a claim was, that the tithe-proctor
was burnt in effigy, and that the rector was obliged to fly.
He had already stated that the petitioners alleged that no claim
for tithes on fish had ever before been set up in that part of the
country. He was aware that tithe upon fish had been claimed
in some places in Sussex, and the claim proceeded upon the
principle that upon everything that had an annual increase the
clergy had a right to tithe. Upon the same principle the.per-
sons who claimed tithe upon fish' also demanded it upon bricks.
In another part of their petition the petitioners stated that they
had had no resident rector fur a great number of years. He
(Lord King) could himself confirm that statement, for he had
lived 40 years in the parish, and he had never known the rector
resident there. It would appear, indeed, as if the best qualifica-
tion for a rector of this place consisted iu being the near rela-
tive of the mayor, or of some of the aldermen of the borough of
Tiverton. The, living to which he was alluding was in the gift
of the Great Seal, as he had already, intimated. Now, through
the means of the Reform Bill, the Great Seal had of late been
emancipated; but, like slaves when suddenly restored to free-
dom, it did not seem to know how to use it properly. (A laugh.)
His noble and learned friend on the woolsack wished to stand
well with the church, and with the high church too, and his
noble friend had been remarked for his coquetting with the
right rev. peers upon that side of the house; but though his
noble friend gave them the livings Lit fits disposal, still he would
find that he would not be able to get their votes. (A laugh.)
soothe them as he would, his noble iriend might be assured that
he would never succeed in inducing the right rev. prelates to
lend their support to the government to which he belonged.
It was a well-known fact in our history, that the prelates 01 the
established church had always shown themselves ready tools iu
the hands of a Tory government; 'but now that the Tories
were expelled from power, and that a liberal government had
been established, no such subserviency would be any longer
exhibited on the'part of the right rev. prelates. He would beg
to remind his noble and learned friend of what the Marquess of
Wharton said to William 111., who was observing to him that
the Tories were an exceedingly accommodating people, and
that he liked them extremely. " I agree with your Majesty,"
replied the Marquess, "that no people can be more accommo-
dating than the Tories, but your Majesty must remember that
you are not the Kiug of the Tories." So he (Lord King)
would tell his noble friend that lie must remember that the
government to which he belonged was not a Tory, but a liberal
and popular government, and that it would be a vain effort to
t‹, Ito ...11,4.erL,4 tyro hi ,L. AitgAa
attisahs; He was sorry to say that, in the piesent instance,
tie noble friend had not provided a good shepherd for the flock.
The noble lord concluded by presenting the petition, which was
from a parish in Somersetshire, the name of, which was not
heard in the gallery; and it prayed not only for the removal of
the particular grievance of which the petitioners complained,
but also for a general amelioration of the tithe system through-
out the'country.
The Duke of CUMBERLAND inquired whether the tithe in
question had been exacted ?
Lord KING said it had not (hear); but that in consequence
of the claim having been raised, the proctor had been burnt in
effigy, and the rector had fled from the parish.

The LORD CHANNCELLOR said that he had been a little
alarmed by his noble friend's statement in the first instance,
from which it would appear as if the rev. person alluded to had
actually levied this tithe, and had done so in defiance of long-
existing custom. It would seem, however, that the petitioners
only complained a the rev. gentleman's laying claim to this
tithe, which they maintained he had no right to do, for it did
not appear from their statement that he had taken any steps to
enforce the claim in question. But if, as they alleged, there
existed no custom there for 'the taking of such tithes, the course
which they had to pursue, should the rector endeavour to exact
them, was plain and obvious • they had only to resort to due
course of law for their protection, instead of appealing to the
legislature on the subject,—they had merely to go into the
courts of law and show that there existed no custom to autho-
rize such a claim, and they were' perfectly safe.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH reminded the noble and learned lord
that' the petition also prayed for a general revision of the tithe
system.
The Loan CHANCELLOR said that be could well understand
that portion of the prayer of the petition; and this he would
say, that no person, not even his noble friend who had pre-
sented the petition, could feel more strongly than he (the Lord
Chancellor) did that that part of it was well founded, and no
person could be more ready to admit than he was that that part
of its prayer should be granted, and that the legislature should
set at once about improving the tithe system,—should set about
placing that system upon a proper footing both as regarded the
persons to whom tithes were due—upon a footing equally bene-
ficial to the lay as well as the clerical portion of the community.
With respect to the rev. gentleman to whom the petition al-
luded, he (the Lord Chancellor) would say that he had never

in the course of his life been accessary to an appointment w
which he was More satisfied. He had never known that reit.
gentleman—indeed up to the present hour he bad never seen
him—but he understood from those who did know him that he
Was an exceedingly fit person to receive such an appointment,
and that, under the circuinstancei In which he was placed, it
would be an object to him to obtain it. He had previously
done duty at one of the new churches in a great and populous
town, and by the burning of it he was reduced, with his wife
and family, literally to a st•ste of destitution. Such was the
statement made to him (the -Lord Chancellor) at the time.
Even if a sum of money could have been raised for the rebuild-
ing of the church in question, it could not be rebuilt in less than
two. or three years, and all that time this rev. gentleman would
have remained without the slightest means of subsistence for
himself or his family, the more especially as the whole of his
emoluments, when the church was standing, was derived from
the pew rents. Such, he repeated, was the statement made to
him with regard to this rev. gentleman, by individuals upon
whose authority he depended, and who recommended the rev.
gentleman to him as a lit individual for the appointment.
Though he (the Lord Chancellor) did not happen to know the
rev. gentleman himself, he was acquainted with some members
of his family, and could assure the house that it was no species
of political intercourse, nor anything of a community of poli-
tical feeling, that had prompted him to confer this appointment
upon the individual alluded to. He thought, on the other
hand, that differences on such points afforded no reason why
he should not give him this appointment, the more especially
as he had heard a most unexceptionable account of him. For
him (the Lord Chancellor) on occasions of this kind to enter
into inquiries, and to try the capacity or incapacity of every
clergyman that might be recommended for one of the livings
in the gift of the Great Seal,—for the Lord Chancellor to do
that, the house would see, and he was sure that his noble friend
in his candour would admit, was absolutely and altogether im-
possible. It was necessary, therefore, for him to refer to cer-
tain ministers, where he placed confidence, as to the selection
of those clergymen to whom such livings should be given, and
nothing that he had heard from his noble friend had induced
him to alter his opinion that he had made a fit and proper
selection in the present instance. That opinion would un-
doubtedly have been shaken if his noble friend had brought
forward some proofs to show that this rev. gentleman had been
acting in the manner he described; and if it had been shown
that he had been exacting tithes to which he had no right, he
(the Lord Chancellor) would only say that he was an ex-
tremely altered individual from the person that he had sent to
fill this living in the county of Somerset. When he sent the
rev. gentleman there, he was utterly incapable of exacting tithes
that were not his due, he could not only say to the amount of a
herring, but even to the amount of a sprat. (Hear, and a laugh.)
If he fiad since changed, as the noble lord had described, he
(the Lord Chancellor) could not possibly account for his meta-
morphosis, except by supposing that he had fallen into an imi-
tation of the conduct of' other persons in that part of the coun-
try. (Hear.) His noble friend was quite mistaken in suppos-
ing that this appointment was made in consequence of the
emancipation of the Great Seal, effected by the Reform Bill.
The fact was, that this appointment was made before, the Re-
form
Bill was passed; it was one of the first made by him (the
Lord Chancellor) under the Great Seal. His noble friend was
still more mistaken in the statement which he made respecting
the assistance which he (the Lord Chancellor) had felt it his
' duty to solicit from the right rev. prelates of those dioceses
where the livings attached to the Great Seal were situated, with
regard to the selection of the rev. individuals to fill them. He
utterly denied that, in doing so, be had in any manner been in-
fluenced by any motives of the kind attributed to him by his
noble friend, and he had the best possible grounds, and the best
possible evidence, to prove that such was not the case. He
utterly denied that he had ever done so with a view to conciliate
the political feelings of those right rev. prelates, or to win them
over to support those political opinions with regard to which he
and his noble friend in a great degree concurred, though in
some respects they materially differed. He would most un-
equivocally. deny that any such idea had ever entered into his
head, and, indeed, if it had, he should have afforded just grounds
for his noble friend's laughter on the present occasion, and he
should no doubt be fated to experience that disappointment
which his noble friend, assuming that he had such objects in
view, had foretold would await him. He (the Lord Chancel-
lor) had stated at the time that the number of exceedingly small
livings which were at the disposal of the Great Seal, tendered
it absolutely impossible for the Lord Chancellor, without trust-
ing to the recommendations of others, to discharge well and
faithfully that branch of the duties intrusted to him; for though
with regard to livings of £2OO, and 1:300, and £lOO a-year, it
was easy for the chancellor to find fit and proper persons to fill
them, and to satisfy himself as to their qualifications and their
merits, it was not so as regarded livings of a different descrip-
tion—of £3O, £4O, and £6o'a-year, of which kind were many of
those belon,vng. to the Great Seal. Instead of such livings be-
ing sought tor, it would be necessary for him, unless he had the
means of applying to and relying upon the recommendations of
others; to go about the country to seek for proper persons to put
into them. It would, he need scarcely add, be impossible for a
lord chancellor, with the many other duties he had to perform, to
do that. Therefore, when he communicated upon this subject with
a most rev. prelate, he stated to him that it might appear that it
was a shrinking from a duty, the resonsibility of which still
attached to him, that he (the Lord Chancellor) entered into
such au arrangement, though, in fact, it was proposed by him
in order to enable him to discharge that duty in a faithful and.
efficient manner. It was solely upon such grounds that he had
made the arrangement in question, and not with any political'
views; or with 'any motive of conferring an obligation on those
right rev. prelates, who rather obliged him than required as-
sistauee. His noble friend had somewhat irregularly intro-
duced this subject, but he (the Lord Chancellor). was glad that
he had done so, as it had given him an opportunity of explain-
ing the real nature of a communication that had been hitherto
very generally, and, he must add, very greatly misunderstood.
(Hear.) The noble and learned lord concluded by repeating. his
opinion as to the fitness of the rev. individual for the appoint-
ment to the parish from which the present petition emanated.
Lord KING said that he was ready to give his noble and
learned friend credit for great discernment,—for great discern-
ment in human nature, but not for great discernment in cler-
ical nature. (A laugh.) He would do his noble friend the
Justice to say that the persons he had appointed to the litings
in his gift had not been so promoted by him on account of a
community of political feeling, for he believed that in almost
every instance they were opposed to his noble friend in politics.
His noble friend had, he was sure not in a bad spirit, alluded to
him (Lord King) and to his conduct as a tithe-owner in Somer-
setshire. Now, he. would only say,
,that he had never exacted
that to which he was not fairly entitled.
Lord WYNFORD said that the clergy of the church of Eng-
land. so far from exacting :what. was not their. due, scarcely
to-el-the one-half of that to which they were lawfully entitled.
He was satisfied if tithes were to 'continue in existence, and
to be transferred to any other body than that by which. they
were now received, that the burden would be double the pre-
sent
in which the chilaeraocbt jeersc objected
itood ti
iii~luals were attacked
rioc d i s Civuistshioonia st
affordingchargesb
rtohueghpta p• arties
against
assailed
them,
morethe
hue a
s wc-els-
eo
thef
clergymen, whose. characters were not only valuiable to' theia'-
selves, but to the country.
Lord KING,
on preventing a petition _thc-narish or Okay_
stock, Cumberland, on the subjectot tithes, observed that lie
had presented a similar petition'from the same place last:3,as,
and neither that nor the present petition said -much fur the me.;
deration of the clergy, of which the noble and- learned loid
peared to think so highly. The petitioners complained of
having been exposed to a harassing' system of•legal persechtion
for a period of 32 years; they stated' they had been dragged by
the incumbent into the courts of Westminsierzhall, and the
ecclesiastical courts of York and Carlisle, for 'unaccustomed'
tithes. .In 1816 a suit in Chancery was instituted against the
petitioners, who set up a modus, which was decided to be suf-
ficiently made out• by Sir John Leach LOrd'Eldon, and Lord
Lyndhurst, 'Not satisfied with these decisions, the rector had
since brought the matter twice to' trial; 'and'had made appli-
cation for a third trial. The petitioners coniplained of these
vexatious proceedings, and prayed for analtetanon of the tithe
system.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH said it was not fair in the noble lord to
present petitions aspersing the cha;ractersof cletgymen without
giving any intimation of htis intention, so as to enable the par-
ties interested tof einpower some noble lord to defend them.
The Bishop of CARLISLE (we believe) declared that a snore
exemplary clergyman did not exist than the individual referred
to in the petition. ••••
Lord KING knew nothing about the clergyman' in question
personally, but regretted that the same opinion' Vas not enter-
tained of him by his parishioners as by his diocesan.
The noble lord presented- a petition from the palish of Ash-
urst, in the county of Kent, praying, whatever'irieasure of re-
lief should be granted to Ireland with respect to tithes, that the
same might be extended to England. The petitibifeis appeared
to think that the people of this country, who hadliehaved well,
ought not to be treated worse in this respectllidn those who
had behaved ill in Ireland. It appeared that the tithe system, -
in so far as tithes were demanded in kind, operated to prevent
the cultivation of hops.
Lord TEYNHAM supported the petition. • •
The Marquess CAMDEN said a few words in defence of. the
clergy.

SI.4,VE TRADE.
Lord, E'LLENnonoi:Glf inquired of Earl Grey. whether, (as we
understood) Government had sent out instructions to our cruis-
ers on the'coast of Africa with respect to the right of search,
under the treaty, entered intoletween France and England, for
the suppression of the slave trade ?
Earl GREY replied, that a supplementary convention, which
was drawn up on the subject, had not yet been ratified, but was
daily expected to be so; and when that negotiation should be
completed the, instructions would be issued.