The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1843-11-14 00:00:00

(317. 14, 1843
s.-

CORRESPONDENCE.

SI4IR EDITOR OF THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.
PeareAN enclosed reply to two letters which lately
Seo't !! the Liverpool Mail, charging the ministers of
tcll,4,,kce° church here with breaking their ordination.
hnkh having been refused insertion at the office of
f,(ll,!ler unless I would pay for it as an advertisement,
kegdaiquest you to give it publicity in your columns on
Lnezb}et~t, as a simple act of justice to the parties
naediately concerned.
I am, Sir,

Yours respectf-illy,
JOHN GARDNER

.I'o
iln TAE EDITOR OF THE LIVERPOOL MAIL.
liw -1.--Th
fa. tort e Public of Liverpool owe you and your
.wor-
-2 the esPondent, " Presbyter," a deep debt of gratitude
lii4,,lairnitable simplicity with which you have disposed
Itit,:eoteh Church question, and for the extremely de-
Nlioludw, charitable way in which you have, of late, been
keiilt e"11 the ministers among us who have, " in a
illa heti excitement"—according to an authority occu-
,,beerge space in the public eye of Liverpool at pre-
'eas , 4 carried away by tree church principles. Re-
alD '0 tis
itigay la i..e letter of " Presbyter," in your paper of S-
k,..kope.:`,', Yon make the remark that it sets the case in
0411t'OFht in a few words; and you therefore recom-
Cteat i the attention of such of your readers as take an
l
qet ttlh the subject. In this calm and philosophical
Oto t-h-e subject is set at rest," and " a service is
ClOtai;e Public," by the publication of the sage con-
-1.'904"; w,hich—by a process of strict, logical reason-
lINtl ho gnu Your correspondent have arrived. _
1.1, ilk Iv then, sir, is this grave subject set at rest? and
10ioe:ttain ministers proved to have broken their or-
ai'l si,,°,B? " Presbyter" quotes correctly the for-
gisol"e° by each minister when ordained ; and then,
ic).:, ai;uPrinciples, proceeds to reason upon the same.
at ,1; but; dmit the force of the reasoning, on his own
14,1:e co„,deny the applicability either of the premises
;11 al arge,alSion to the point at issue. The ministers to
l,,Plites!erence is here made, and, of course, made with
0, ,:,Intentions, hold the doctrines, worship, governd-
Nti(4l discipline, as these existed when they.acc.epte
'Ntra.4; and they still hold these as they exist in the
11,1 4"°f the church.
4413 Y l' tsetr,o,nge, but easily comprehended oversight,
'` doe tperceive the words " presently"
NtlPNent Br'p' " in the for
k.,
hence
establishment
solid
mula; and so he
Itiitet4glile,c_to the grave and conclusion, that the
lkb . I Church in Scotland now is the same, in all
iiriiiiks!'n! has ever been ; and would have us believe
14, Pective of all changes which have taken place,
I"siat knit adhere to her. Suppose, for the sake of
I Nis.. -6,;' the Established Church in Scotland to become
heack to be overrun by heresy of any name, ministers
l)Nwsu.eh Principles of reasoning, still adhere to her,
mill:tile the Church was in a state of comparative
4,lthateY had sworn to uphold her. I most explicitly
111itt.tile Present
;standEablishment in Scotland is the
Olo'ofth.gas ever been
kl,,b4tose noble men who have renounced her corrimu-
sttt" the authority of the leading moderates in the
. s
tablishment. But as lam not called upon to
qt ' negiat
tlof ve, I leave to " Presbyter" and you, the
114,ioit.8uewing that the Established
church,Churchin Scots-
-111 kitse;. connexion with the state, and as a
discipline
itliithelu doctrine, worship, government, and n
iktoselli' ever been. No minister in the
.Preso) term
It 'ttil'il England, holding Free Church principles, has
111448 ordination vows, but, on the contrary, is the
lit,oth uPholding these in all their integrity, and. prov-
Ai h alit World his sincerity in so doing by suffering re-
Altlettte d h'ss• But there is another grievous fallacy in
r or 6,
1i .4 of ' Presbyter." He seeks to identify the mi.
al:li:ter. the Presbyterian Church in England with the
ibot." of the Church in Scotland. This is quite in-
la b, 'vlinisters ordained by Presbyteries in England
141,-cien ordained not for the Established Church in
04, but for the Presbyterian Church in England,
`ties -,,e901-1 with the Church of Scotland—a con-
lithicil,.'sting only in sending friendly deputations,
tvaoci may be dissolved at any given moment with-
lob,ch i.,1 loss to either party. The Presbyterian
iritig • " England is a separate, independent church,
kleutitrlndeed the Westminster standards, but free from
,t,O. 4•011 the part of the Established Church in Scot-
one, inisters of the Presbyterian Church in England
~..tiot liable only to their oyyn'presbytery and synod, and
fil '.h? the least degree so to any church courts in Scot-
-IZtioateetsientence of deposition may be, and has been,
ktl!ster b ?Y the. Presbyterian Church in England, on.
Iqier, „elug a licentiate of the Church of Scotland ,
tlit lehi t'uch sentence is reported to the presbytery
,i QOB CU the minister has received his license to preach
ti:olot 'f),!l, and to the General Assembly, such sentence
i„tdedlnially confirmed by either court, but is simply
filio „lot' their own guidance as to the deposed person,
t'tiotiv.roof that the Established Church claims no juris-
k4telliP this kingdom. Ministers of the Presbyterian
duel Own
toe are at full liberty, as ate all men, to
lt,f4tirio Own sas to the principles adopted, and
Viet lt' also at
:1411ey wet
to act, publicly and privately, in con-
iViot with their own views, so long as they do
tllttel) th to the hurt or prejudice of the church. in
taili.l:!. are ministers. In conjunction with their
'it, etie"Tons, they are also at perfect liberty to make
lift. aitUks for any object which they may deem a righteous.
41p,Oft,"Ilt consulting trustees, or any other parties;
litilett",entse, in these, and in all other matters, they are
tth.tiotT the higher ecclesiastical. courts, before which,
lki7te,'nonymously, in the pages of a newspaper, how-
''litet.P.ectable, they should be accused and tried. The
VW: unjustly calumniated in this, and a preceding
heittat'l?nt columns, would, had they been ministers of
IN jtiejrlshed church in Scotland, have seceded along
iyeitl orethren—at least I may say so for myself—
laipnet eilhns they most undoubtedly are, ministers of
~Ily':„Nial'i'beh, they are not called upon to secede from
Lqatv,°ltian'r.,ch, as there exist no grounds to warrant
"eto',"nreji„"'oina.. It is publicly and privately asserted,
ere—enPy "uneto leave the churches which we at pre-
-1411 we,
at
. t
h • most unhesitatingly say that we are not.
!rei.,,in Se,tsent bond fide ministers of the established
Iti°' the -"‘Land 'would not be called to account at
6. NI e
'al. ally held by us, so long as we had not
,N f glarineed of demission or act of separation.. Look
N'ta, buries g cases of Bennie and Glover, of Edinburgh,
rla.o ,9: of Currie—the former of whom, immedi-
M leree,„`"e disruption, declared that the established
N,,°llsel-f,"fe'.,! in the light of the Court of Session and
4 ,„." be s'" Lords was a " moral nuisance, and as such
k,,TanglePt from' the face of the earth." All these,
dot' -a 'tilers remain quietly in possession of their
~,-nd stipends, and have never, so far as we have
va itrn• been called to an account. In consistency
'4+l. Yet tkhe procedure of the establishment, we would
8
ttilthaoe lie called upon by the church courts to resign
Vtfif eLven were we in Scotland. I do not speak at
!Itaa,Zuat we should feel bound to do in such cir-
-1/41110/ as a testimony for the truth. alien, as to the
i 1,1411 the „ir9Perty, which is held "in terrorem" over our
' ijeeiet'in truth is this, that, while in the event of
i1,04g 0 euen of a minister, the pc int may be raised of
i:, ( r not being a licentiate of the church established
, tat,4ost of the trust deeds requiring a licentiate of
Itttiool:hed church,) yet, as to the present incuin-
ileei a Point can neither in law nor in justice be
k tl44(lng that all of them are licentiates of the church
la,,t'hy ~:in,nd have done nothing either here or else-
IkNii,Ntet,-,Vich their status can be in the slightest de-
Arj,-„"' I hold it then to be at once most unjust
c?t pith, to charge ministers with " trifling with. the
483.1;,'P1es of morality, and as having no claim. to
ro,pt of h It not unfrequently happens,. Sir, that in a
Nu 84 ,aPPY unconsciousness, we judge others by
O„Pt telui L'ard, but whether it be so in the present case
OYter. ",.;Is I know, and desire to know, nothing of
Kl,:ti One thing, however, I would press upon his
Yt Noe e speaks of morality. Let him then know
V?tolaie tnorality in principle is love to God in the
In,s't,to4,l Practice, it is love to man, flowing from
‘irity,._dest'..and certain it is, the letter of Presbyter is
Us hiel:Lute of the essence of all morality—the
r% tajl,i thinketh no evil. Before he ventures so to
tki1i,4.044.e hs,,,tets, let bins lay his hand upon his heart, and
b'trieh` Pronounce the sentence. lie may be one
a.kitiilia",v_vho delight in " injunctions," and may be
)41.ithitrtit,"C Pleasure of seeing a few more hurrying
S'iLklittip
cet,ihr career of mischief; but I would remind

Vt.qtl i,;`,"%ers, of an injunction given
t,t,lt It% 'fie law of his day, and given in precisely
~,0 alstances. Take heed to yourselves what ye
Ititiit'tll as touching these men. " Refrain from these
hit et i.
,h, t"etn alone ; for if this counsel or this work
hatettOill come to nought; but if it be of God, ye
‘00.;',1.01;v it, lest, haply, ye 1e found even to fight

ay one of c

' Ott I am, Sir, yours respectfuly,
JOHN GARDNER,
kbeetoz°6f the Scotch Church, Birkenhead, Cheshire
er, 1843.

011, T
Pk, ° MR. ALDERMAN EVANS.
4iii,,tl th
iktl,l4itlie ~e debate in Council, on Thursday last, when
),‘).Nit ,e-election of Robertson Gladstone, Esq. to
rp View" You thought proper (if I may believe the
Aqh ilitf„sPaPer report) to make a comparison as to
lqt cio" of that gentleman for filling the office, and
qt
In the following words :
re tconfess it a very painful alternative for him
Ihtl4,cv,,olle, re-election of Mr. Gladstone, because,
:11t ;;Igl not mention names, the person who pro-
otcils,s,e substituted for him was one who, in his
Ite itn) °Pinion, in all the requisites of a Mayor
titOvt„l'neacurably his inferior." Now, Sir, with
)ti'le it",:!_the successor of Mr. Gladstone would be
, t. %a 8 "4,se ad
umatterpon
forof doubt,least,
haotnour
k\ti
)e hi gentlenaen, I believe, to be proposed by their
LN)Otistlepripds, one of whom I well know you were
tkill4l‘44l thtS your remark alr
ic am
was justified si tni
intended
eind coming
forno e o
to
f
‘ll6,ete ivr° gentlemen in question, it is now well
te.d IV% James Lawrence and Mr. G. H. Law-
INV, Oallenge you to the denial that you were
II e' Co that you would not support, the latter
mill ttit hi it be, Sir, that the straight-forward,
44,114-Igh-minded, and honest Eyre Evans would
ki,.to Zt tr. a
II . gentleman so very far from being
c:112 kw ', the civic chair? I think, Sir, it could
, lith;reil`: therefore I must come to the conclusion
ill!itititict blekewas. intended for the former gentleman.,
lilitttl?,ll acre orislder how far Mr. James Lawrence s
etsaal,„, with your view of the case. I would ask
IN t )14 ti ei 1 'B7lthat your
ever since his first return
Ngliekkt he b„?wo, by his indefatigable attention to
Vol" any, and that he can, afford to de-
iiettiatl4 fr situation he may he called
tilett°lt imp"c him• Has not he been r'
t, 4rta •
r 4, with ~ nt and arduous con-
harro "ie council ? Corn r
to Mind could hay'