The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-02-12 00:00:00

Lives as independent as governed any member of the most libe-
ral opinions, and representing the 'largest constituency in the
kingdom. (Long-continued cheering.)
Mr. RUTHVEN—" Sir, agreeing with the honourable member
for Dublin in all the sentiments he has expressed, I shall not
take up time by dilating at length upon them, but refer more
particularly to what has been offered to our consideration by
the other side of the House. The King's speech conveys feel-
ings towards Ireland • which no Irishman, who entertains the
same feelings towards Ireland that I do, can hear without dis-
satisfaction. (Loud 'cheers.) Ministers know nothing of Ire-
land; Is it-through policemen.? Is it through placemen? Is
it through the creatures of government, who live in subordinate
.placei, or, what is Worse, in the expectation of places ? Is it
to be expected that through such polluted sources Englishmen
will ever have that plain and unvarnished character of- Ireland
which ought to be had by all impartial minds? (Hear.) Let
not the house imagine the government want these extraordinary
powers merely for the sake of imprisoninga few unfortunate
Whitefeet or Blackfeet. No, what I fear is, that they wish to
lay hands upon those who put themselves forward in defence of
their country, under pretence of being disturbers of the public
peace."'
Mr. D. BnowNE said he had listened with great attention,
but had heard nothing to induce him to support the amend-
ment. There was great inconsistency in the. gentlemen oppo-
site, because, though they all seemed to feel the. evils of their
country, they ascribed. them to different causes, and proposed
essentially different remedies. (Hear.) He knew penal laws
never attacehed a poeple to the government; but when the exi-
gency of the times demanded it, ministers ought to adopt all
measures for the preservation of the public tranquillity. He
should support the address. (Hear.)
Mr. RounKE said that the policy of ministers was inconsist-
ent every where. He would have readily voted with them for
coercive measures, if they had promised to try conciliation first.
Mr. Pii,a Eft (member for Bodmin) said he could not reconcile
it to his sense of dury to vote on this question without stating the
reason on which his decision was founded. If he did not feel
satisfied that something remedial was instantly to be adopted
towards Ireland, he would not go hand in harid with ministers
—he would long hesitate before acceding to the proposed coer-
cion; but believing on his soul and honour that the one was as
necessary in its present state as the other to its future peace, he
felt himself bound to support ministers in their intended mea-
sures. He did not: form his judgment on the state of Ireland
by the reports of newspapers, but on the evidence of the hon.
and Iparned gentleman (hear, from Mr O'Connell) and the
friends who surround him ; and in that evidence there was
enotigh to satisfy him of the correctness of the vote he pur-
posed to give. (Cheers.) In much that had been stated by the
hon. and-learned member for Dubin, and the lion. member for
Waterford, he fully concurred, for Ireland undoubtedly was
suffering nnder many wrongs which loudly called upon them to
use every practicable endeavour to remove. (Hear.) The grand.
jury laws, the assessments, church cess, and many other things,
were evils—which required an earls' and proper revision.
Taxed as that country was for a church she did not approve—
every half-starved peasant having something wrung from him for
it, he felt that palliative measures could not be too soon applied.
He (Mr. P.) had already admitted the existence of alarming evils ; but
whilst he made that admission, he must not be supposed as in the re-
motest degree attributing them to the present ministers, (Cheers.) He
could not agree that the accumulated ills of ages—the wrongs. and in-
sults and injuries of centuries—could be redressed by any ministry of
two years' standing. (Loud cheers,) From the evidence of all par-
ties it was evident that decisive measures were. necessary. The law
was a (lead letter. (Hear, hear 1) Under the present frightful state
of affairs, the rich man was set against the poor man—the Protestant
against the Catholic—and friend against friend. What was babe donel
Do justice, he said. (Loud cheers.) Alas! this was not the work 'of ,
a minute—not the work of months, after centuries of misrule. (Hear;
hear I) What then was to be done in the meantime ? Was the mid..
night murderer and incendiary to stalk abroad unheeded and unpii,
nished ? (Cheers.) No : life, property, must be openly protected
and vindicated, and if the government was not strong enough, ampler
powers must be conceded to them ; (hear, hear!) and that, it should
.be recollected, was solely done, ne quid (kb-in:call respublica capered
(Much cheering.)
Mr. ItoTcit complained that all other subjects were forgotten
except the state of Ireland. He made a few remarks on the investi-
gation into the Poor-laws, which had been lately made, and expressed
his belief that the Church would be amended and preserved.
Colonel TOERENS said, that the Address stated either too much, or
not enough. The country, was in a state of great suffering, and
expected much from a Reformed Parliament. No mention of the
distresses of the People was made in the Address, and he should not
therefore vote for it. With regard to Ireland, the Catholic Relief
Bill had been made a dead letter; no Catholic was admitted into the
Cabinet. He did not believe that the introduction of capital would
benefit Ireland : it would produce an improved system of agriculture,
and throw ninny labourers out of employ.
Mr. BRISCOE would support the Address, trusting to the pledge of
Ministers that remedial measures for Ireland should at once be
adopted.
Mr. O'Dwyer called upon Mr. Stanley to say at once what he
meant to do with the Church,—whether he meant to spare or destroy,
it. He hail called for " war to the death :" Charles the Tenth and the
King of Holland had done the same, and what was the consequence ?
Mr. STANLEY started up, and strongly denied that he had made use
of the expression war to the death—"l 'said that I would resist to the
death the Repeal of the Union ; considering it equivalent to a dismem-
berment of the empire."
Mr. O'DWYER said he would make Mr. Stanley a present of his ex-
planation. He could not, from the obtasity of his Hibernian intellect,
lie supposed, understand the distinction. He would dare to tell the
truth. The prisons in Ireland were already too full to hold the offend-
ers.. There were more prosecutions for libel than in the time of Sir
Robert Peel.

Sir R. PEEL—" There were none in my time."
Mr. O'Dwynn—" lam glad to hear it. I only wish the honourable
baronet would forego the tranquil enjoyments of English society, and
again come amongst us—for any change would be for the better."
Dr. LusHINGTON regretted the menacing tone which the Irish mem-
bers had assumed in this debate. He wished to know whether Mr.
O'Dwyer adhered to the expression which he had used about destroy-.
ing the Protestant Church.'
Mr. O'DWYER said he;meant interference with its temporalities, when
he spoke of interfering with the Protestant Church.
Dr. LIJSIIINGTON thought the explanation as unsatisfactory as the
original expression. He had thought that when Catholic members
entered that house, the following words which they subscribed made a
deep impression :—" And I do hereby disclaim, disavow, and solemnly
abjure any intention to subvert the present Church establishment, as
settled by law." (Hear ! from Mr. O'Connell.) After that cheer, he
might read on—" And I do solemnly, in the presence of God, profess,
testify, and declare, that I do make this declaration, and every part
thereof, in the plain and ordinary sense, without any evasion, equivo-
cation, or mental reservation." (Hear, hear! from Mr. O'Connell.)
If the hon. and learned gentleman supposed that by his ejaculation he
Could for one single instant intimidate him from the straight path of
his duty,—if he supposed that he could be a prime agitator here,—if
he thought that that character could be assumed by him with the con-
sent even of a petty minority of the house, he would find himself egre-
giously mistaken. (Cheers from all sides,)
Mr. WALTER agreed with that part of the address which related to
the union with Ireland. He would ever strenuously oppose a separa-
tiOn. The speech was menacing. it was said ;-but menaces • ought to
be employed against the violators of the law. He regretted that there
should be any division amongst the friends of reforni, but trusted that
ministers would prove, by their perseverauce•in their former line of
conduct, that they deserved the confidence of the country.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL complained warmly of the want of courtesy,
towards a new member of that house, exhibited in the tone in which
the hon. and learned gentleman (Dr. Lushington) had spoken of the
member for Drogheda, and of the manner in which that learned gen-
tleman had laboured to put an overstained construction,oh the oat.
taken by Catholic members. He ridicUled the idea that the oath pre-
cluded those members from settling by law the temporalities of the .
Established Church. The oath should not be interpreted too strictly,
by one who had so long maintained the opinion that the Coronation
oath should not interfere with the relief of Catholics, and who had so
repeatedly taken the Oath of Supremacy, and sworn that no foreign
potentate.. had any spiritual jurisdiction in this realm—an assertion
which was not strictly true.
Mr. SIIA,w expressed his sense of the injustice of the complaint so
often made, that Irish members or Irish affairs were not attended to
in that House; and bore testimony to the uniform courtesy with
which such discussions were always treated. The government was
justified in the introduction of strong measures, and it was their duty,
for they could not otherwise preserve the peace of that country. The
Irish complained of absentees ; but how were they endeavouring to
remedy the evils of absenteeism by forcing the resident gentry to
become absentees. Murders and outrages were of daily. occurrence
in the country. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear, hear.") TA valued
friend of his had written that he would be with him on a particular
day—that day he was murdered. Though he did not agree in the
general policy of the government, he felt it his duty to support
them in this instance ; for unless the government were invested with
those powers, and exercised them with determination, he feared that
the slender thread which connected both countries might soon he
severed. _

.......
Mr. WALKER said, that the hon. and learned member for Dublin
University had exhibited proofs of individual suffering from the mob ;
but he could state more apalling facts of suffering from the constituted
authorities--of cruelty on the part of the police and injustice on . the
part of magistrates. Three distinct cases had come under his own
observation which he related, wherein policeinen had been brought to
trial for wanton murder ; in the first case the convict was pardoned
by the executive, and is still in the police : in the second the grand
jury i,,,mored the bill ; and in the third an innocent man was tried
instead Of the offender. In all three cases the guilt was clear ; but
party spirit saved the murderers : how, then, could the Irish be at
peace, or have any confidence in the law ? Let those who wondered
at the alleged ferocity of the Irish character think of the provocation,
These cases, however, had occurred before the present ministry came
into power. (Hear!)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR confirmed the statement of the hon. member for
Wexford.
Capt. YORKE said he had heard enough from the Irish members
themselves to show that additional power was necessary to protect the
Peaceful and the loyal ; and so far lie would grant that power. (Loud
cries of " Divide, divide," " Withdraw, "Adjourn," No, no," &c.)
Mr. EMERSON TENANT said he, was convinced that the speech would
give gratification to the whole province of which he was a native ; and
ho had no hesitation in voting for the address.
Several members rose, but the cries of " Divide," " Question,"
" Withdraw," became so overpowering, that they were compelled to
sit down. The gallery was then cleared, and the-house divided.
• For Mr. O'Connell's amendment . 40
Against it 428

Majority for the addresss 3BB