The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-05-03 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

amendment upon the motion of the hon. baronet, the member
for the city of London, for the reduction of the house and win-
dow tax, the following resolution, which he would now read, in
order to have it placed upon the votes, so that gentlemen would
have time to consider it—namely, "That a great deficiency of
revenue would be occasioned by the reduction of the malt tax
to 10s. per quarter, and by the repeal of the taxes on houses
and windows, which could only be supplied by the substitution
of a general tax upon property (hear, hear) ; and that as the
effect of it would be to change the whole financial system of the
country, it would at present be inexpedient to adopt it." (Loud
cries of " Ilear, hear.")
Lord Aurnoite, having resumed his seat, rose again in a few
minutes, and moved the order of the day for the house resolv-
ing itself into a committee of supply. In doing so, he said he
would take that opportunity, seeing the hon. member for Wol-
verhampton (Mr. W. Whitmore) present, to express a hope
that his hon. friend, whose motion with regard to the corn laws
had precedence to-morrow evening of that of the hon. baronet,
the member for the city of London, would not refuse the request
which he (Lord Althorp) now made to him to give way upon
that occasion, and to allow the motion of the hon. baronet to
have precedence, as the circumstances in which they were
placed rendered it in the highest degree, he would not say
merely expedient, but absolutely necessary, that the decision of
the house should be had as soon as possible upon this important
subject. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WHIT sto en said, that under such circumstances he had
no objection to accede to the request of his noble friend, and to
postpone his motion.
Sir W. INGILBY said, he wished to ask the noble lord, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, what it was his intention to do
respecting the resolution which had been carried on Friday last.
(Laughter.) That resolution having been carried by a majority
of the House of Commons, and the manner in which the noble
lord had taken it up having gone forth throughout the country,
together with the decision of the house upon the subject, the
country would expect that the measure should be carried into
effect. (Hear, hear.) He begged, therefore, to ask the noble
lord whether it was his intention to carry that resolution for the
reduction of the duty on malt to one half into effect, or what it
was that he intended to do ?
Lord ALTHORP said, that it was only such gentlemen as were
not so much accustomed to the proceedings of that house as his
hon. friend was that could misunderstand what he (Lord Al-
thor(i) had said upon the subject, after the vote had been carried
on 1 riday night. As to his lion. friend's question with regard
to what lie (Lord Althorp) intended to do respecting the reso-
lution that had been carried on Friday night, he thought that
the motion of which lie had just given notice was a sufficient
answer to it. (Hear, hear.)
The Marquis of CHANDOS said that he had misunderstood the
noble lord in the same way that the hon. member for Lincoln-
shire had misunderstood him, as it would appear, upon Friday
night. He rose to express his deep regret that it was the inten-
tion of his Majesty's government to endeavour to get rid of a
vote of the House of Commons upon a question of the greatest
importance to the country at large—(hear, hear)—to get rid of
it, too, under such circumstances—to get rid of a deliberate
vote upon this question, when it could not be said that the house
had been taken by surprise on the subject, for the hon. baro-
net's notice had been on the votes for a week. (llear, hear.)
For himself he should be ashamed if he was capable of altering
his vote upon this important question in such a way; and he
would say, that he would rather throw up the seat which he
had the honour to fill than do so; and he would put it to the
candour of the house, to the honour of English country gentle-
men, whether, upon a question which so deeply affected the
landed interest of the country, the house should, upon the re-
quisition of the minister of the Crown, recall its vote upon it,
and vote as he directed it, exactly the other way. (Hear.)
Mr. TENN rsoN said, that undoubtedly the noble lord was best
qualified to give a construction as to what he did say, or in-
tended to say, on the previous occasion now referred to, and
although he was ready to accept the explanation which had been
given, yet he must say that it was his (Mr. Tennyson's) im-
pression at the time, an impression that had been extensively
circulated through the press, that he (Lord Althorp) stated, on
that occasion that he would, notwithstanding the smallness of
the majority, feel it to be his duty to carry the resolution into
effect.) Loud cries of " No, no," and " Yes, yes.") The pre-
sent House of Commons, it must be recollected, was net like
former degraded Housei of Parliament, that would vote as the
minister required them to do, the members of which were more
the puppets of the minister than the representatives of the peo-
ple ; and of course when they differed from him upon any ques-
tion, he had nothing to do but to resign. But. now that they
were assembled in a refoimed Parliament, when his Majesty's
ministers came down to treat with them, the real representa-
tives of the people, regarding the supply, and when they pro-
posed that a certain sum should be raised for that purpose, if
they preferred raising it in a different manner from that.pro-
posed by ministers, they had, if they truly represented the peo-
ple, a right to say, and the ministers of the Crown should listen
to them, " We do not wish to be taxed in that or that particular
manner; we wish that a change should be made, and that it
should be raised in another way." For his own part, he should
be ashamed of himself, if, being ready to vote for the reduction
of the malt tax, and for the repeal of the house and window taxes,
he should not be also really to vote for a substitute for them.
He was, so far as he was concerned, ready to agree to the im-
position of a property tax. (Hear, hear.) So far from thinking
that such a tax would be a grievance on the landed interest, he
was of opinion that it would be the greatest boon that could be
conferred upon it; removing, as it would, those burdens that at
present weighed down the industrious portion of the community,
thus affording the greatest possible stimulus to diffusing life and
vigour throughout the productive industry of the country.
He regretted that the minister of the Crown intended to come
down to propose the rescinding of the vote of the house in the
manner that it was proposed to do. They must come to a pro-
perty tax; nothing else would satisfy the people of this country,
and nothing else was calculated to place the country once more
in a prosperous condition. (Hear.)
Mr. RoniNSON would wish both the government and the house
to consider the situation in which.they would be placed if, by any
means whatever, the resolution proposed by the noble lord should
he carried. Would it not then be said, and justly said, that a
House of Commons, consisting of 300 and odd members, came to
a deliberate vote, upon due notice, for reducing a portion of the
burdens of the people, and that that vote was considered a pro-
per subject for revision? He had never been in the habit of
using language in that house calculated to produce an unfavour-
able impression of it in the country, and he should not commence
that career now, but he could not avoid stating what would be the
necessary and inevitable consequence of the revision of this vote.
The people would see that the House of Commons, consisting
very often of not more than 30 or 40 members, had passed esti-
mates for imposing burdens upon them to a large amount, and
that in no single instance had such votes been subjected to a
revision, whereas that when a house of 300 and odd members
decided upon reducing their burdens, that vote was subjected to
revision, and was actually rescinded. (Hear.) In conclusion,
he would invoke the house to pause well before it came to con-
sider that discussion of which the noble lord had given notice
for to-morrow—to consider well what would be the necessary and
inevitable consequence of overturning the vote of Friday night.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD had understood the noble lord precisely as
the noble lord the member for Euckinghamshire:— That the
vote had placed the government in a state of considerable em-
barrassment; but, after the vote to which the house had come,
he could not think of offering any opposition to the carryingof
_it into effect." (Cries of "No, no.") He did not agree with
the hon. member for Lambeth, that former Houses of Commons
had been degraded, but what, lie would ask, would be thought
of the dignity and character of the present house if. it should re-
scind its solemn decision at the command of the minister? He
was quite satisfied that the proceeding, if adopted, would lead
to great changes in the proceedings of the house, and he dreaded
the manner in which it was likely to be received by the country
at large. He dreaded the operation of such conduct with re-
gard to the reduction of a tax.
Mr. BENETT confirmed, from his own recollection, the ex-
planation already made by Lord Althorp of the meaning and
terms of his statement on Friday night.
Mr. Ham. DARE said he had not had the good fortune to be
present on Friday night, but he concurred with the honourable
member for Wolverhampton, that, after the decision on that
night, notwithstanding the explanation of the noble lord RP to
his meaning on that question, it would be a bad precedent to at-
tempt to rescind a vote to which the house had deliberately come.
He was perfectly ready to vote for a property tax as a substitute
for the malt tax. And shoUld, if he had been present, have
voted for the motion of the hon. baronet (Sir W. Ingilby); but
he should have done so with regret, as he only considered it a
half measure. (Hear, hear.) He, for one, was ready to con-
sider the proposition for reducing the whole of the malt tax, and
substituting a property tax iu its stead.
Mr. BARING, as far as he was concerned, would not give en-
couragement to further discussion on the malt tax, but having
been one of those who thought it fit to vote in favour of the re-
duction of the malt duty, he thought it proper to say, that the
declaration of the noble lord, as it struck him, might have been
taken_by hon. gentlemen either to mean one thing, or the other.
(Immense laughter.) He complained, that within twenty-four
hours' notice, the house was to be brought to a division on this
most important sui,ject. In fact, he thought that the reduction
of the malt tax, for which he voted on Friday, might have been
afforded without bringing on the necessity of entertaining the
question of a commutation of taxes; but even allowing that it
Were put to him distinctly-, would he have the malt duty reduced

and a property tax imposed, or the malt duty be left alone, he
should certainly say, leave the malt duty alone (hear, hear,)
and spare him the infliction of a property tax. ("Hear, hear,"
and laughter.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he should follow the example of his
hon. friend, and postpone giving any detailed opinion upon the
great question which was to come on for discussion to-morrow
night till the proper time arrived. He would observe, however,
with respect to the event which had brought on the present dis-
cussion, that if he had been present on Friday night, which ac-
cident alone prevented him from being, he should have given
his most decided opposition to the proposition for reducing. the
malt tax. He, for one, would not consent to inflict an injury
upon the public creditor by voting for the repeal of any one
tax until he felt assured of obtaining a substitute for it. (Hear.)
With regard to the success of establishing a property and in-
come tax in substitution of other taxes, he entertained very
serious doubts. Ile did not mean to say, that virtually to re-
scind in one night a vote to which the house had come on
another was a course free from evil, but he thought that a far
greater evil would result from the maintenance of the doctrine
that questions of such immense importance should be finally
determined by a house consisting of only half the number of the
whole house.—(Hear, hear.) he course he meant to adopt
with respect to the question of the imposition of a property tax
might probably be inferred from the opinions he had already
expressed, but feeling that question to be one of immense im-
portance, and one involving considerations of such magnitude,
he should abstain until it was fairly before the house from en-
tering into a discussion upon its merits.
Lord ALTHORP said that an hon. friend of his had objected
to the shortness of the notice he had given for the motion he
intended to submit to the house ; but if his hon. friend consi-
dered the situation in which the affairs of the country would be
placed while the decision of such a question stood over, he was
sure he would not think the notice too short. In the resolution
which he had read to the house he had distinctly stated that the
imposition of a property tax would be at present inexpedient.
On the question that the Speaker leave the chair,
Sir. R. INGLIS asked whether government were acquainted
with the nature of the bill authorizing the establishment of
the Glasgow lottery, while that bill was in progress through the
house ?

Lord ALTHORP replied, that his Majesty's government had
not the least idea that a bill authorizing the establishment of a
lottery had passed the Houses of Parliament until he was
apprised of the existence of the lottery itself. His attention
was then drawn to the subject, and on looking at the act
he found that no allusion was made to the lottery in its title,
and that the word " lottery" itself never once occurred
throughout the act. It was, to say the truth, most skilfully
drawn up, and the parties who had concocted it had fully
succeeded in rendering the house and the pvernment entirely
i"norant of the real nature of the bill. He could only say,
that as far as the goverment was concerned, no countenance
nor assistance had been given to the act in question.
Sir R. PEEL.-If the lottery is not yet drawn the bill may be
repealed. (" It is drawn.") Well, then*, all I can say is that
those who were parties to the transaction ought to be subjected
to public punishment.
Mr. HA Lcoma gave notice, that on Thursday next he should
introduce to the notice of the house the subject of a breach of
privilege, founded on the undue interference at the last Dover
election, of parties connected with the Ordnance and Post-
office establishments.

The house then resolved itself into a committee of supply,
and the SPEAKER left the chair.

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

Colonel MABERLY moved, " That a sum not exceeding
£71,996, be granted for the civil establishments of the Tower,
Pall-mall, and Dublin."
After some observations the vote was agreed to.
The following votes were agreed to :
£8,935 for the departments at Woolwich, £14,919 for the sa-
laries at borne stations, £26,871 for the salaries at out stations in
Ireland and foreign stations, £37,703 for the salaries of barrack
masters, &c., at home and abroad : £277,156 for the charge of
the royal artillery was the next vote.
• Mr. HUME, after complaining that the present vote was kept
up on the highest war scale, and that half the number of men
would, in these times of peace, answer all the purposes for which
an artillery was required, moved as an amendment that the
number of men should be reduced from 6,000 to 4,000, i. e. as a
money vote, that the estimate should be reduced to £181,771.
Colonel MABERLY maintained that the present amount of men
was hardly adequate to the wants of the service. The Master-
General had five demands from the colonies for artillerymen ;
but owing to the paucity of men, was only able to comply with
two of them.

Messrs. Young, Tennyson, T. Attwood, and Robinson opposed
the amendment, on the ground that though friends to economy,
they did not think the present artillery force greater than the
public service required.
Mr. HUMS said that his reduced vote would be 1,000 men more
than was found wanting in 1792.
The committee then divided.

For Mr. Ilume's amendment 3l
• Against l.lO
Majority against the amendment -109
The vote was consequently agreed to.
The question that £25,587 he granted to defray the expense
of superintendence of the building and repair of barracks in
Great Britain, Ireland, and the colonies was agreed to ; as were
several other votes after a short conversation.

The rest of the votes were agreed to without opposition.
On the question that the Chairman report progress and ask
leave to sit again, being put—
Mr. HOME rose, and said that he was anxious to submit to
the house for their concurrence a resolution which had been a-
greed to by the committee appointed to examine into the
state of the public documents, for the purpose of making the va-
rious public returns and accounts winch had been moved for
and printed for some years back available to the members of
that house. In the course of their investigation they found
considerable difficulty in collecting information respecting the
past income of the country, the increase and decrease of trade,
and many other matters connected with the financial and
commercial state of the kingdom. A gentleman of the name
of Marshall was called before the committee, it being well
known that he had employed himself for the. last 12 years in
collecting and classifying a variety of public accounts, and at
the close of his examination he laid before the committee a
Collection of papers containing a complete view of the expendi-
ture and revenue of the kingdom, and forming a series of sta-
tistical accounts of the most valuable nature. Indeed, there
was scarcely a subject connected with finance or commerce
respecting which information might not be gained by reference
to Mr. Marshall's book, and he had no doubt that his work
would save the country large sums of money, which were now
expended annually in printing returns and public accounts for
the use of the members of that house. So convinced was he of
the value of Mr. Marshall's work, both as respected the informa-
tiOn it would afford and the expense it would save the country,
that he some time ago represented to his Majesty's ministers
the propriety of giving that gentleman £5OO to enable him to
complete his book. He did not 'anticipate that any objection
would be made to this resolution on the score of expense. He
should conclude with moving that the house agree in the re-
commendation of the committee on public documents, that 1,250
copies: of Mr. Marshall's digest of information, derived from
parliamentary documents since the,year 1798, be purchased for
the use of the members of the house,_ and that a sum not exceed-
in £2,625 be granted for the purchase of the said copies.
Lord ALTUORP said he was inclined to leave it to the general
feeling of the house whether the proposed grant of money was,
under the circumstanced of the case, justifiable. He did not
mean to deny that great ability and industry had been displayed
by Mr. Marshall in the compilation of the materials of his
work; but it should be borne in mind'that that gentleman bad
already received a grant of £5OO, and that great difference of
opinion existed as to the propriety of that giant at the time it
was propOsed. He had been ready to make the first advance of
£5OO upon his own responsibility, and that circumstance must
be a sufficient proof of his sense of the utility of the work. He
would leave it to the house to decide whether it would sanction
a second grant of the same kind.
After a few words from Mr. Briscoe, in favour of the grant,
and from Mr. Aglionby and Lord Sandon, who, though opposed
to Mr. Hume's motion, were willing to grant a' sum of £5OO to
Mr. Marshall for the completion of his work,
Mr. HosiE replied, and in the course of his reply stated, that
the saving .of £2600 on such a point as this was a very paltry
consideration.

Lord SANDoN again rose and said that before the committee
proceeded to a division he should propose that £5OO, or £lOOO,
should be given to Mr. Marshall for the completion of his work,
instead of £2600 for 120 Q copies for the use of members of that
house. If the original motion were carried, the 658 members
of the present House of Commons would each be entitled to a
copy of the work. Now, to all of that number, except perhaps
a hundred, the book would be mere waste paper, and they would
take an early opportunity of exchanging it with their book-
sellers for some works more to their taste and edification.—
(Laughter.) The members of the next House of Commons
would- also be in want of their copies. Some of them would
obtain c6pies—others would not. The House of Commons after
the next would be left entirely without copies of this important
work. The motion was therefore faulty, as it provided for the
!Tiving away a work of permanent importance to a body that
was transient and changeable in its nature. - (Hear, hear.)
He concluded by moving as an amendment that a sum not'