The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-05-07 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS.

On Wednes.l•iv, the 11041 monthly meeting of the
Council was held at the Town-fill, The MAYOR took
the chair at eleven o'clock, at which tinie there were 23
membe,s in their respective places.

THE WATCH COMMITTEE.-THE MAGISTRACY.
ORANGEISM AND RIBBONISM.

Mr. ASPINALL asked permission of the Mayor to have
the proceedings of the Watch Committee read in the first
instance. He made the application in consequence of
be ng obliged to leave town, on business of a melancholy
nature, at one o'clock, and as the chairman of the com-
mittee would be unable to attend the Council that day.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE expressed his willingness to
con -ent to the application, under the circumstances stated.
Mr. H. H ORNBY thought it extremely desirable that
the proceedings should be read in the presence of a full
Council, as 'they involved considerations of a somewhat
unusual character. He understood that observations
were to re made respecting the conduct of the magis-
tracy.
Mr. ASPINALL said he was in hopes that discussion
arising out of the proceedings would be postponed for the
present, as a case was about to be drawn up for the opinion
of eminent counsel, touching the powers of the magistracy
and the committee.

r. v I ORNBY, under these circumstances, observed
that his objection was entirely withdrawn.
Mr. lIARBORD said he should feel it necessary, for the
protection of his own character as a public man, to bring
forward a subject in which he was individually concerned,
and upon which he expected a certain member of the
Council, then in his place, to satisfy him on a particular
point.
Upon the motion of Mr. ASPINALL, the proceedings
were then read. It appeared from those proceedings that
the Mayor (having heard that some of the police-officers
of the borough were members of Orange and Ribbon So-
cieties), together with Mr. Rushton, had come to the
determination, that any constable who was a member of
an Orange or Ribbon Society, was deemed by them ineli-
gible for the situation of a police-officer in the town of
Liverpool, and unfit for police duty. Inquiries were then
directed to be made ; Mr. Whitty, Mr. Miller, and Mr.
Dowling were consulted ; and the head constable reported
that seven of the force had acknowledged themselves to
be Orangemen, and that others were members of three
Catholic benefit societies. A meeting of the borough
magistrates was then called, at which the foregoing facts
were detailed, and at which the following resolution, pro-
posed by Mr. Ru-hton, and seconded by Mr. Bolton,
was adopted :—" That no man who is a member of either
an Orange or Ribbon Society shall be permitted to belong
to the police force of this borough, and that all members
of the present force now belonging to either of those so-
cieties shall be required forthwith to withdraw from them,
and that in case of refusal the Mayor and magistrates will
feel it their duty to dismiss them from the force." An
amendment was moved by Mr. Hodgson, but, for the
want of a seconder, fell to the ground. Mr. Miller then
read the resolution of the magistrates to the seven
Orangemen in the force, who immediately declared their
willingness to withdraw from the Orange Society, but at
the same time requested that copies of the rules and orders
of that society might be laid before the Mayor and malis-
trates. Then followed a correspondence which had taken
place between the Mayor and Mr. Aspinall (the deputy
chairman of the Watch Committee), touching the pro-
ceedings of the magistrates, which proceedings, it ap-
peared, were not, in the first instance, communicated to
that committee ; and lastly, there was the following reso-
lution to which the Watch Committee had come :—" That
the Town-clerk be requested to prepare a case for the
opinion of one or more eminent counsel as to the powers
of the Watch Committee and the justices, in respect to
the disrni,sal of the constables, and on all points which
have arisen or may arise as to the management of the
police, or the separate duties of this committee and the
justices in relation thereto; also upon the points now
raised by the proceedings of the justices in relation to the
expelling of Orangemen and Ribbonmen from the police
as ineligible; and that until the opinion be received, the
further consideration of the matter and the proceedings
of the committee be postponed."
Mr. ASPINALL, seconded by Mr. Thornhill, having
moved the confirmation of the proceedings,
Mr. HARBORD said that perhaps that was the time for
him to make a statement relative to the proceedings of
the Watch Committee, in which he was individually con-
cerned—(hear). As a member of that committee, he
availed himself of the opportunity to bring under the
notice of the council a certain report, which appeared in
the Liverpool Journal of Saturday last ; but, before be
ventured to read any portion of that report, he had to
request the permission of the Council to put a question
to a member of their body as to whether what was stated
in the Journal was substantially correct. He hoped he
should be a'lowed to do this, as his character, as a public
man, was very much involved at the present time.
The MAYOR.—Certainly, you can ask any question you
like ; but, you know, it is optional with the parties to
answer you. _ .

Mr. GLADSTONE.—IS it the pleasure of the Council
that Mr. Harbord should have this permission ? He
wants to nut a question to me, to know v.hether a report
is correct, before he has read that report.
Mr. HARBORD said he had not mentioned Mr. Glad-
stone's name, and that if patience were evinced, the re-
port should be read. To ensure the attendance of Mr.
Gladstone. Iv; had sent a note to that gentleman the day
before, telling him that he was going to put a question to
him in Council. Mr. Gladstone must know that other
people had ears and understanding as well as himself;
arid it was therefore considered necessary to communicate
with him, so as to ensure his attendance there that day.
Mr. GLADSTONE.—I assure you I have not attended
here in pur-uance of your summons.
Mr. 11 Annoan.—l hope if I act as a gentleman to-
wards Mr. Gladstone, he will act the same towards me—
(hear). I have not summoned him
Mr. GLADSTONE —There is an insinuation here.
Mr, H ARBORD.—No ; I say it would be an ungentle-
manly act, on my part, to summons him, and that I have
not done so.
The MAYOR.—I understand Mr. Gladstone to say that
he did not attend in consequence of your summons.
Mr. H ARBORD,—I say I trust I know how to conduct
myself as a gentleman towards him ; and 1 trust he will
be able to act as a gentleman towards me. Ile has at-
tempted twice to interrupt me. I can assure the council
that, although my feelings are very much hurt, I came
here not to show the slightest acrimonious feeling to-
wards any person, but rather inclined to believe that what
Mr. Gladstone has said of me was owing to a want of
judgment, and not with any intention to hurt my feelings.
—(hear, hear). I have been determined for twelve months
past never to allow my natural feelings to be brought into
action to the destruction of my better judgment; and I
of
hope e
revengeful
eGf
ul
la d
feelings,s t o n e willfir livethatt o
Iknertertthaaitnlaanmy ndoetsiare toman
insult. But, as an independent member of society, I
shall take all the stens I can to protect my character as a
public individual. Having s'ated thus much, I now turn
to the report in the Journal, which purports to be a re-
port of a meeting of the magistrates on business con-
nected with Orangemen in the police force: and from this
it anpears that Mr. Gladstone expressed his entire con-
currence in what had fallen from Mr. Rathboue, and
said " he considered it highly inaprorer that such a per-
son as Mr. Harbord, the Grand Master of the Orange
Lodges, should be a member of the Watch Committee."
I bee to ask Mr. Gladstone if that is substantially cor-
rect ?

Mr. GLADSTONE.—Ts 't the pleasure of the Council
that I should reply to the question ? I shall take the
vo•es of the Council on that point. (Oh !)
The MAYOR.—I think it optional with you to answer.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE.—It is not for Mr. Gladstone to
ask the pleasure of the Council on such a point. He has
been asked a question, and it is for him to answer it or
not, as he pleases ; but we are not constituted a Council
to investigate such a matter. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLAnsTorqs...—Well, then, I have no hesitation in
saving that if this had been a matter which referred to my
conduct, as a member of the Council, I should have
thought it necessary to give Mr. Harbord every informa-
tion. so far as was consistent with what is right and proper,
connected with the matter. But, as this information re-
lates entirely to my duty as a magistra'e, I conceive that
I am now acting in j•,stice to myself and the other ma-
gistrates of the borough when I say, that in no way hold-
ing myself amenable to Mr. Harbord in the matter, I
must distinctly and unequivocally refuse to give any in-
formation as to the report, whether correct or incorrect ;
and that, taking my stand on that, I shall make no fur-
ther remarks on the subject.
Mr. HARBORD.—I should not think of remaining on
the Watch Committee until the pleasure of the Council
was known ; and I now chagenge Mr. Gladstone to move
that I he susoended from the committee.
The MAYOR.—Yon cannot make that motion.
Mr. HARBORD —I trust I may have that justice done
to me. lam connected with a public board, and if a sus-
picion rests in the breast of any man that I am incapable
to discharge its duties properly, put me in a position in
which I may set myself right. I must either retire or be
subject to taunts.
The MAYOR.--If there is no personal, there certainly
is no legal objection to you. None was ever stated, or at-
attempted to be stated.
Mr. ISAAC HOLME.; thought the cases analogous. If
an individual, who happened to he a member of the Orange
Society, should not be in the police force, surely the
Grand Master of the Orangemen should not be on the
committee. Mr. Harhord's challenge was fair. (Hear.)
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE suggested to the Council the
pr,priety of asking Mr. Harbord if he thought himself a
member of an illegal society.
Mr. HARBORD believed that he was a member of a
body who were exclusively loyal. and who were constitu-
ted to uphold the laws of the country and the Protestant
government. He should say that any sound Protestant was
in his heart an Orangeman. (Hear, hear.) In fact, all the
laws and regulations of the society
invited to were laid open to the
who were invited join, merely that thee might
be banded together to maintain the laws and institu-
tions of the country : and therefore, with these objects in
view, he was under the impression that it was not only a
legal but a legally constituted body. (Hear.)
Mr. H. HORNBY thought the discussion out of order,
and that they were not justified in questioning any pro-
ceedings which might have taken place before a body of
msgistrwes, who met without reporters being present.
Mr. HARBORD hoped his position would be considered
by the council. If a common policeman, who was a re-
cognised Orangeman, was consid. red unfit for the force,
surely he (Mr. H.) who was an honorary member of an
Orange Societe, must be equally disqualified from sitting
on the Watch Committee. He hoped those who objected
to him would have the moral courage to rise and object
to him. He eh dlepg-d any one to do it then.
Mr. H. HORNBY said that if it was competent to make
ttoi„douns7a,irryt, >foercabietsheaMd raiwtlaayrsbdrtrisdchhandrgteldisctrerung
the objection, he, for one, would have the moral courageperly. evderhyispdruo--