The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-11-29 00:00:00

LIVERPOOL CORPORATION INQUIRY.

TWENTIETH DAY.
This day (Tuesday, Nov. 26) the commissioners for inquiring
into the municii)al corporations of England and Wales resumed
their inquisitorial duties into the affairs of the Corporation of
this borough. The commissioners took their seats shortly after
ten o'clock.

Mr. Johuvier, the gentleman who has several times ad-
dressed the commissioners during the investigation, was the
first person "to break the ice." He rose to offer some sugges-
tions which, initis opinion, should be embodied in a new bill
for the improvenient of the town*. He thought that in the first
place a portion of the- money received as town dues and dock
rates ougut to be set apart for the institution and maintenance
of a free school for the teaching of merchant seamen and ap-
prentices reading, writing, and practical arithmetic ; also, that
a further sum should he appropriated for the erection of a pub-
lic observatory in the vicinity of Liverpool, to be kept in- effi-
ciency, and provided with keeper, &c., out of the same fund.
It was well known that seamen were liberated from their avo-
cations at six o'clock at night, after which they were thrown on
the town, and exposed to all the evils of dissipation, which too
frequent4y ruined them. From these they might be rescued by
a proper education, and made more suitable for their profession,
and more useful to those individuals in whose employ they
might be. lie considered that the expense should be borne by
those who were to derive the greatest benefits, those who paid
the town dues and the dock rates. With respect to the other
question, the erection of an observatory, it was hardly neces-
sary to say anything of the importance of such an establish-
ment, and at present there was actually not the means of know-
ing when it was twelve o'clock. It would not only be an
advantage to Liverpool, but to the kingdom at large:
Mr. Radcliffe, the solicitor, rose to call the attention of the
commissioners to two acts relating to the Dock Estate, which
he had not previously alluded to. It appeared by the 39th of
Geo. 111., sec. 130, power was taken by the Corporation to
make, at their own expense, certain improvements of great
extent in Bridge-street, Bromfield-street, and Darwen-street.
He mentioned this in explanation of what had been stated by
Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Myers, who contended that the Corpo-
ration ought to have given the Dock Estate the reversion of the
property; and that it had been given as the opinion of the lit-
, ter gentleman that the Corporation should have borne more
than half the cost; and it would be rereembered that those im-
provements had been stated to be of great advantage to the
town at large, as well as to the Dock Estate in particular.
Now, from the evidence, of the secretary, Mr. Wm. Foster, it
appeared that the Corporation had sold the reversion of that
land for the sum of £1,219 19s. These imprOvements were
perfectly distinct from those made under the act of 1825,10 r the
purpose of makincie _ which, it was also stated by Mr. William.
Foster, the Dock' state had paid to the Corporation on ac-
count of purchases £87,563 4s. 3d.
The Town-clerk stated that the improvernessis inetrornfield-
street and Darwen-street were under the act of sth Geo. IV.
Mr. Radcliffe.—lt is quite immaterial to my case. I say
that by the 37th Geo. 111. the Corporation took power to make
those improvements at their own expense, and by the act of the
51st they threw it on the Dock Estate. It matters nothing to
my point whether that is confirmed by the 6th of Geo. IV. or not.
Mr. Irving, on the subject of the change proposed to be made
in the system of obtaining freedom, said that lie had availed
himself of the method appointed by the charter to obtain his
freedom, by deriving it from a burgess, though lie was not free
by birth, and if others had not been so prudent in their younger
days to avail themselves of the door by which he entered, it was
their own fault, and he held that it would be an act of injustice
and oppression in the legislature to pass a measure whereby, his
privilege would be deteriorated. He did not envy Messrs. Bol-
ton and Thornely their property, and he did not think they had
any right to envy him his privilege.
James Thompson, a boatman, said he had a complaint to
make against the conduct of the policemen on the pierheads,
and that they were open to receive bribes and drink. One of
them, when looking after something of the kind on board a
steam-boat, had been carried off to Hoyle. (A laugh.) Com-
plaints had been made to the head constable, Gaskell, but lie
would not attend to them. On the contrary, the man who-had
been carried to Hoyle had since been promoted to be deputy
keeper of Bridewell.
The Town-clerk.—That was certainly a left-handed promo-
tion, for it has put him a step down.
James Thoinpson continued, that he thought it would be a
very useful improvement if the constables were changed from
time to time. He had not made any complaints himself to the
magistrates.
Mr. G. Barnsley wished to be examined on the subject of the
constables on the pierhead and the borough police establish-
ment. He thought that the constables of the borough were
equally inefficient, and to his certain knowledge they were open
to the receipt of fees or douceurs when in the discharge of their
duty. In fact, though he pretended to very little skill in the
law, he considered those constables, as a general body, to be
utterly unacquainted with the efficient discharge of their duties.
A person going to the police-office at nine or half-past nine in
the morning, would be sure to find the constables, from six to
twenty of them, as it might be, loitering away their time,_ in-
stead of being two hours earlier at posts where they might be of
service. He had also experienced a want of courtesy at the
police establishment, although, he must admit, the cause of
complaint in that respect had considerably abated since he had
become connected with parochial affairs, and consequently
somewhat more notorious. (A laugh.) It was well known
also to all who walked the streets that the constables allowed
persons to transgtess the laws with impunity, and unless there
was an absolute row which they. could not avoid, they never
gave themselves the trouble to interfere. To remedy this he
submitted that a digest of their duties should be furnished to
every constable. Another subject of complaint was the want
of a person who understood the law to advise with the magis-
trates, for at present the only practical man for that purpose
was his worthy friend Mr. Topham, who had to be appealed to
on all occasions. He complained, moreover, of so young a
man as Mr. Statham presiding at the Court of Requests. He
believed hint to be a very estimable young man, but the scene
of confusion which any one would find who went eo that court,
would show that those remarks were not made without reason.
The next evil which he had to advert to was that of five indivi-
duals, brothers, being placed in situations in the affairs of the
Corporation exposing them to temptations which he,was sure
would be too much for himself, though there was no one who
colrld say that he wits other than an honest man. One of those
brothers was the person who had articles to furnish which might
be the subject of dispute, another had to pass the pledge whether
they were faithfully supplied, another had to pass the accounts,
and supposing an action to result, there was another brother by
whom that action was to be maintained. There was scarcely a
committee in the town where one of those gentlemen was not
either secretary or solicitor, and he begged to state and declare,
on the oath he had taken, that he had no personal hostility to
any memher of the Corporation, but was rather under personal
obligations to them, vet a more complete senate of Venice had
never existed since the senate of Venice did exist. (Laughter
and applause.)
The Town-clerk.—As I stated before, I am perfectly willing
to answer any charge that may be brought against me or any
of my family, but when gentlemen come forward to make state-
ments of thit kind, he thought it hut right that they should be
called upon to name the fact. (Hear. hear.) The gentleman
who had just sat down had stated, on his oath, and constantly
referred to it, that there were five Fosters; he might, however,
say, that while he was perfectly willing to answer for those who
did exist, he must be excused doing so for these who did not.
Mr. Foster, the secretary to the Dock Estate, stated, that
silence on. his part might be construed into a passive acquies-
cence to the correctness of Mr. Barnsley's statements, which he
denied. It was true lie was secretary to the Exchange Build-
ings and the Dock Estate, but he at the same time distinctly
disclaimed owing the slightest obligation whatever either to the
Dock Committee or the Corporation. With respect to the bu-
siness done by Foster and Stewart, as builders, the bills of the
firm were never sent in until they were submitted to the in-
spection of persons competent to judge of their fairnesS, and the
business in which he was concerned was open to the competi-
tion of others in the same trade. (Hear.)
Mr. Barnsley said lie was not aware that the bills sent in were
so submitted before the present time, but he must say that the
situation in which the family of Mr. Foster were placed did not
place them above temptation.
Mr. William Parlour, the superintendent of police, in allu-
sion to the remarks of Mr. Barnsley on the management of the
police, stated, that during the whole time he had been connected
with the Liverpool police, he had never known a single case of
bribery, and he challenged Mr. Barnsley or any other person to
prove an instance in which he or any of his officers had been
wanting in civility and respect. As to the constables loitering
away their time, he would only remark, thdt in a town like
Liverpool, where they had thirty or forty cases to bring before
the magistrates every morning, it was imperative to have the
constables in readiness. He-had a book in which their names
were entered, and also the places to which they were sent out,
under the orders of each district head-constable, • They were on
duty from nine in the morning until ten at night, and the eighth
part of them, in rotation, were on duty the whole night. This
he, Considered quite as much as men could do. He had had
great experience both in the army and municipal force else-
where, and he believed the efficiency of the Liverpool police as
perfect as any he had known, and that there was no town in
the kingdsrm so free from depredations, notwithstanding it was
a seaport. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. William Neighbour, the governor of the Borough Gaol,
was here examined as to the state of that prison. He said there
might be at present about 168 debtors in confinement, and ac-
cording to the rules of the establishment they were allowed one
quart of ale per day. The price of the ale was sd. and 7d., and
he was aware that they were in the habit of selling it one to
another. One- publioan supplied it, -buts.ouly solong as.it was
approved of, the surgeon regularly tasting it. Every debtor
came down and received it for himself, so that if there was any
abuse it rested with themselves. lie did not know that 100 per
cent. wes made upon the ale : there were weights and scales
always within the reach of the debtors. He had been charged
by a 'foreigner some time ago with making a profit by conniving
with the indiViduals suplying provisions. vegetables, &c. to the
gaol, and that person had selected various articlds which he
asserted to be fraudmilently suppliell, but which were all proved
to be full weight. It had also been reported to the Magistrates
that he was regularly paid a certain sum of money by time wo-
man who supplied the milk. The magistrates had expressed
their disgust at the complaint; and he was happy to say that
such was the feeling of the parties supplying the different
articles, that they each went voluntarily to an attorney, and
made affidavits in very strong terms of his entire innocence of
anything which had been lam to his charge.
Mr. 'l. B. Horsfall wished to call the attention of the court
to a few remarks made yesterday by Mr. William Brown on
the subject of bribing file dock masters. He (Mr. Brown)
had stated that at the period when Mr. Brown's house had
given the bribe of £5O to a dock master, it was the universal
custom with the merchants to do so. Such a statement he did
not hesitate to say was a libel upon the merchants Of the town,
and certainly not founded on fact. Since he had heard that
such an observation had been made, he had communicated
with some of the principal merchants and shipowners in the
town, who had authorised him to give the statement the most
unqualified contradiction, as such bribery, if it did exist was
confined to Mr. Brown's house and the party with whom he
acted. (Ilear.)
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson.—Of course you can positively
state that your house has never bribed the dock masters ?
Mr. Horsfall.—l can. The dock masters never received a
bribe either from ourselves or our servants. 1 have been in
business as a merchant myself for seven years, and the house in
which I am a partner has been established thirty years, and
from my experience, I believe that the principal merchants in
the town are equally as free from Mr. Brown's imputation. I
am sure that I speak the sentiments of the gentlemen whom I
saw on the subject this morning,. when I state, "that had I been
a merchant who had descended to bribing a dock roaster, I
should have considered myself disgraced as a merchant of
Liverpool, and certainly should never have continued to sit as
a member of the Dock Committee. (CheerS.)
Mr. Radcliffe, the solicitor, remarked that the court would re-
collect. they had upon their minutes the resolution of the Dock
Committee, threatening the dismissal of all the dock masters for
receiving bribes.
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson, with reference to the purchase
of the land from Sir John Tobin, (before alluded to,) inquired
the rental now produced by that land to the Corporation ?
Mr. Sudlow, of the treasurer's office, replied that he could not
exactly state, but he understood the rental was very small.—
He would, however, endeavour to ascertain by the follOWiti
day.

%
-• •

. .
Mr. Neighbour here'handed up a coy of the regulations of
the prison, relative to the allowances 01 food, &c. to the Prison-
ers, which were read. Three affidavits were also read which "8
voluntarily been made by tradesmen supplying the borough gaol
with ale, vegetables, milk, &c., stating, in plain terms, that no
fee, reward, or gratuity had been given to the governor by them
or any other person on their part for the privilege of supPlYwg
the articles alluded to, or any other articles.
Mr. Ellis, of the Town-clerk's office, here stated, with refer-
ence to the selection of juries, that it was the right of the bai-
liffs to select juries, and when he officiated by selecting them,
he considered that he was only acting for the bailiffs, and not
for the Town-clerk. The reason he was deputed by the bailiff
was, that they considered he (Mr. Ellis) was better acquainted
with those most fit to serve than themselves. Many persons
who had been selected by himself to serve on juries, had com-
plained to the bailiffs that it was not their turn to serve, when
the bailiffs invariably consulted the book, and if it was not, they
were not summoned. _ _

The,- Commissioner said that he understood there was a large
vessel in the Prince's Dock, called the John Bull. He wished
to know how many tons burthen it was, and whether it was likely
to go again to sea ?
Mr. Foster, the Secretary to the Dock Estate, replied that
there was such a vessel in the Prince's Dock, about five hundred
tons burthen. It had been in the West India trade, and be-
longed to Ewart, Myers, and Co. He did not know whether the
vessel would go to sea again. It had been lying there some,
years. The rent, dockage, &c. upon it, amounted, he believed',
to about £3OO. Was not aware that application had been me"
for payment of the dockage. One of the owners is a member
of the Dock Committee.
Sir George Drinkwater observed that had the ship belonge,
to the Mayor, Mr. Rhiley, or Sir George Driukwater, it woula
have been removed long since. He supposed the reason of Rl'
not being removed, might be attributed to the preponderatiug
influence of the merchants in the Dock Committee. (A laugh.)
Mr. Morrall had very justly remarked that it was better to have
men of business instead of men in business, on the Dock Celn-
mittee.

The Rev. Jonathan Brooks, of Trinity College, Cambridge,
examined.—ls rector of the parish of Liverpool, and one of the
mediety. There are national schools in Liverpool, but none at-
tached to the church itself. There is a Blue Coat School, at Whicl!
350 children, boys and girls, were educated. Has been on all
the committees of the schools connected with the Establishment'
At the schools of the Establishment about 5000 children were
educated, in which number he included the Workhouse schools;-
and those of the Establishment without the boundaries of the
borough, although within the parliamentary borough. The,
mode of educating the children and the general managemen-
of the schools met with his approbation. At the Blue Coat
School the system of education was in as great a state of Per'
fection as at any school in England; and he had the authority •
of Dr. Bell (upon whose system the children were taught) for
forming that opinion. The churches of, the gitablishrneut
Liverpool were generally well attended, as far as his obseivaticla
went. Ilis (Dr. Brooks's) church was well attended, and he
had four services in the day.
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson inquired if Mr. Brooks ha 4
had an opportunity of judging of the effects of the beer sholte •
and public houses upon the community.
Mr. Brooks replied that, as Chairman of the County Quarter
Sessions, he had an opportunity of witnessing the effects
of the numerous beer shops from the cases that came before
him. He could state them to be a decided nuisance in the
town, as they multiplied the temptations to drinking. In the
country they were to be found in retired situations, and as Fr
ceptacles for all kinds of loose and disorderly characters. Vitui
regard to the cases that came before him in his capacity °f
chairman of the sessions, he had taken great pains to trace
them td their source; and he spoke within compass when b°
stated, that the origin of crimes, in eight cases out of ten, vras
to be traced to the effects of frequenting public houses and hee,
be
shops. Boys of tender age frequented such places; but
could not say whether they frequented beer shops more than
public houses.
His Worship the Mayor here said that, from his own obsW
vation, thirteen children had been brought before him front
beer houses, not one of whose ages amounted to twelve. es
Mr. Rathbone begged to ask the rector if the dram
were not more injurious to the people than the beer-shops, est-
daily to the female population.
The rector replied, that so far as he knew of the spirit-shops'
he understood that persons went in to take a glass and awaY ;
and as a glass of spirits went further than ale, he thought they,
might be more injurious. The use of intoxicating liquors ha.a
increased to a great extent in the town, and, he was sorry `t?
add, amongst the females.
The commissioners inquired the rector's opinion of the "JO tf
of the Liverpool poor.
The rector said, that considering the large population of tbe„
town, he thought the poor were tolerably comfortable;
fact, more so than in other towns of a similar size, and more
orderly in their conduct. There was a provident society estaro
belied for the poor. One of its objects was to induce them °au
something for themselves anothergi them to supersede,
sums for exigencies; and of its objects was to
as much as possible, indiscriminate charity, by sending all Ob-
jects of charity to the society, so that their case should be Ind
quired into, and, if found deserving, relieved. The society ha
been found of great service. One gentleman of the committee
sat daily, at twelve o'clock, to inquire into the cases of the Pu'd,
There were at present some thousands of pounds in the ban f
of the treasurer of the society. The charitable institutionsi)
the town were exceedingly numerous. There was a friend 11
society, of which he (Mr. nrooks) was president, and its Mel?:
hers Iced increased rapidly within the last five or six years. is
its first establishment the people were exceedingly jealous 01 l'e
managers, and seemed to think they could manage their cat'
affairs as well as any body of gentlemen,- but they were 11°I
satisfied that the managers had nothing but their welfare a
heart, -and the members continued to increase.
Mr. Brooks, in answer to a question put by the Town-c•°-
said he had known the Rev. Mr. Johnson, as curate of Lil;
pool, for many years, and he had no hesitation in seeing thltaee
1"-
was the best curate he ever recollected (applause), and paid.
greatest attention to his parochial duties.
Lieut. Morrison wished to ask if £4OO or £5OO, which had
been collected some years ago for the relief of the starving
al
so_
Irish, had not, without the authority of those for whom it was
collected, been appropriated to the use of the Provident -
ciety?
Mr. Brooks replied, he was not aware that such was the fact,
but he did know that the majority of the applicants fur relief at
the Provident Society were Irish.
Mr. Rathbone said that it was true a sum of money,
for the use of the starving Irish, which was in hand when
titre
extreme distress in that country had.ceased, was applied to
,er
use of the Provident Society, but as one of the committee r,st
the distribution of the money collected, he begged to say
stn.%
before the money was handed over to the Provident Society'
an advertisement was inserted in the newspapers, stating ten,,a.,
those persons who had subscribed, and did not wish the money
to to be sq appropriated, could receive back their subscriptions
euei,
applying to the committee. No persons applying, the mug
was banded to the Provident Society. fore
Mr. Duncan, the solicitor, who subscribed to the fund
collected
Irish, recollected the advertisement, and corroborated
Rathbone's statement.
Dr. Collins insinuated that the distress had not ceased "'I;
the money was kept back from the Irish, and attributed,etros.
money's not going to the Irish to the misstatements of the r
testant clergy in Ireland. is
Lieutenant Morrison said his object was to show that in
tb
case the Provident Society was the tool of a political par
(Hisses.)
Mr. John Finch, an iron dealer, nod a member of the Tecn'o,
perance Society, drew a picture of the benefits of ternperalf3tee
and stated it as his opinion that five-sixths of the crimes t' that
people were attributed to drunkenness. He complaineaeitst
public-honses should be allowed to be open on Sundays, oi,le
the Cemetery and the Zoological Gardens, where the PietLat
might rationally enjoy themselves, were closed. He stated led
the advantages of temperance would be shown when he Sis tee
that 3,2(X) people of the town of Preston were members 01.
Temperance Society, and that, at the last Lancaster as` Tau
not a single criminal from that town (containing a popula,,ooo
of 30,000) appeared on the calendar. There are about 0
members of the Temperance Society in Liverpool. lie
Lieutenant Morrison said that, from his own observatiedays,
could not state whether public-houses were closed on Sunda
but he could say that the pumps were locked up on Sun t
A wag, here observed that he thought he had seen Lieuteno
Morrison at large on the Sabbath. Vie°
Mr. R. Shorthouse, secretary to the Stranger's. to the
Society, said that he had principally devoted his time
education of children, and he thought the system of euncoiesa
pursued at the public schools was very defective. He eeincot the
that the children, in their religious instruction, had
siScriptures sufficiently expounded to them to render the Sols
telligible. He also Thought that children in charity seieete•
should be instructed in English grammar and the more educe'
fie exercises of arithmetic. He contrasted the system of e tors,
tion pursued by the establishment with that of the dissa
and drew an inference in favour of the latter. COP
Mr. Radclifie here said, by the 2d Geo. 111., sec. 9, thee the
lector to the Dock Estate had the fullest power to levy uP° ,
vessel herself for arrears, and also a power to remove. ;time
Mr. Robertson Gladstone here rose, and stated that he which
to make some observations in reply to the observations 0 the
had fallen the previous day from Mr. James Brown, °, When
subject of bribing the dock masters. He was not in courLooght
that evidence of Mr. Brown's was tendered, and he now, 'rola,
the earliest opportunity of an explanation. He hadunde .
that Mr. Brown, when tendering his evidence on the sub) the
the bribery of dock masters, had stated that in 1825 it Ylastbo
universal practice to do so, and presuming that by using ass
termeno exceptions were included, he cons*red that n eject.
perfettly justified in asking permission to refer to the SlToar
Having met with Mr. Brown at the meeting of the Doe. oat
mittee that day, he took the opportunity of asking him 03 .t io'
--
manner he intended the statement to apply,whether? 1 eV,
. '
'eluded every mercantile house in business at that time • essa
Brown replied, that his remark applied only to AlPeese'l'
houses. but saving this, Mr. Brown put a note into his ear
intimating, at the same time, that there seemed to be IntretglOr
ties interested than he was aware of. The note stated t .°0 gis°
Purnell, master of the George's Dock, would be in court %teed,
important evidence, and had requested several parties to aLtjpeoo
and amongst them were the house of Gladstone and Co. ding tt
inquiring of Mr. Purnell what grounds he had for intentioa th,e,
bring forward their house as parties in the system, he 1° .
his surprise had been in some measure caused by an err.°,rtlifYiv.'
note was from Mr. Radcliffe to Mr. William Browne, s'eseler„/`i
that he had seen a letter from Mr. Purnell 'to the „wt
stating, that he (Mr. Purnell) was to be in court, attvaccou
Yesterday, to give important information, and on that ger-o:
he wished the Town-clerk to procure the attendance s'," esseee'o,
tlemen he named, including himself, (Mr. Brown,' isersu'er
Gladstone and Mr Brocklebank, and several other rolief Zf
The fact was, that Co.,Mr. Purnell wished either the ovetinseet.e
any member of the house to which he belonged to be prey singe
the purpose of proving that they had never given him to the.e,
bribe, and that he had nevertheless done ample j ustiee_se yeaci:o
ships. He had been a partner in the house for nearly ns"ser b
and he did protest most solemnly, that no bribe had' e bouse.,o,
given by a member, or any one connected a ith thei_rs aoY
(Cheers.) He thought it a peculiarly hard case thald, ahoeet,
dividual, in attempting to extricate himself from the ninneeceae
endeavour to bespatter the character of those who Were bato
Mr. George Grant said, no bribe, directly or indirev. to st.oo
ever been paid by his house, and he begged Mr. Pur"esiderati
if he had ever received a shilling from them, as aOn had
for prei ence.
Mr. Purcell.—Never; and he would mention, thatebeeereect
only requested the orerlookers of those houses which wer odes
in his note to be in attendance, as they had the superintleoeeis
of the vessels, to state, that though he had never( his Co
anything from them, they had no reason to complain o
the
duct.
AA essetlie
Mr. Radcliffe said, he would explain how he au-r ivg
note in question to Mr. Brown.. On Monday
.norl'ilhe betile
Foster, no doubt for the purpose of espeditinee: to .1
ness of the inquiry, had shown him the note writtei
Town-clerk by Mr. Purnell; [Mr. Radcliffe ;Tad ti'e.pro'cliA,
and in communicating its contents from memory to Alircaclibe
which he did to relieve the Town-clerk from any `lei'
for the sake of dispatch, .and writing hastily, acknow aloe,
had named Messrs. Gladstone and Co. instead of the oveete,eis,
of Messrs. Gladstone and Co. He explained why th„eesee-c1 Doc
again in his possession: it was given to him by the 'isuit vies
that-ht. (Mr. Radcliffe) might satisf Mr. Brown that
in the Town-clerk that the further inquiry originate:o' plal'
Mr. R. Gladstone.--I did not come forward to

ov
EMnEll 49
1883.
- •

-,...-.........-.........
el:tili Mr. Radcliffe. I am perfectl satisfied as far as you are
kr• triled• It is the unqualified nature of the expressiomneor.f eh Brown that I complain of, which implicates every
ThE a!othwat time in the town.
RideTifit i n-clerk stated that he had handed the note to Mr.
ing h. Decause these were so many misstatements respect-
PurniTself, that he wished it to be seen by Mr. Brown that Mr.
the e
.1 had requested the further inquiry.
0 business of the day here concluded, the court being ad-
J Mourned until ten o'clock to-morrow, in the course of which the
luquiry seems likely to terminate.

At ten , TWENTY FIRST DAY.
Slimed
4, 0 Clock this day (ednesday) the commissioners re-
and welue inquiry, being the twenty-first day of their sittings,
,„,.,_e should say, judging from the disposition of persons to ritu,.K...rspeeches, (which in many instances are irrelevant to the
it yo'esY,) and the n° disposition of the commissioners to hear them,
iovesti appear probable that the prolonged and wearisome
of it gatiou will end this week, or, at least, not before the end
the he first person examined this morning was Mr. Forwood,
th!:verseer of the poor, who was sent for the previous day by
11 olmnissiones.
va,,,rar• Forwood was appointed assistant overseer in 1821. Irish
14.brits
Isere passed through him—the clerk of the magistrates
eluded in fee for each pass—a family small or large was m-
in the one pass--the number of Irish paupers for the year
parish of October, 1833, 5112, of whom 2975 were from the
including)f Liverpool, and 2137 from other parts of the country,
w bintion- from. which city until an act of Parliament
ol,tittassed last se;sion, paupers were sent down to Liverpool,
shit" "neat annoyance of the parish, instead of being at once
e.`)Pe'l holla that city—the number of passes issued for the last
.t4r, was ~.,,,
load which he considereda
beneath the average—a
bia,s'inail portion of those Wm applied received passes, pro-
ue! 1) might apply in a day, of whom very few received
.a
17,,, ol• the eight years, commencing 1824, and ending 1831,
1)47 Pai.lpers were passed from this parish, 6535 from other
and ,',.es In the country, 8723 from the county of Middlesex,
„ .176 from other counties, making a grand total of 39,8e9
rerMon.
Place .. passed in that time—a material decrease had taken
to the in the number of cellars in the town, which he attributed
andT erection of cottages—some cottages were extremely filthy,
Tht_ was no unusual thing to find pigs in them.
tira_ge I own-clerk said, that it was a singular fact, that at the
Mr
rthe cholera was in the town, pigs were found in top rooms.
ere i' George Forwood in continuation—there was in general
aect opnent fur the industrious poor at 2s. 6d. to 3s. per day—
at £l2ng to the present assessment, there were 15,985 cottages
6,11. and wader comps 3 dwelling-houses £l3 to 1;2o-inclusive ;
ral 7 above £2O, ising 28,805 assessments of houses at the
an_lie of Z 175,756; there were 4,222 assessments of warehouses
‘l_.„o other property to the value of £239,735, besides assessments
,'u_, blie cotnpanies, such as the railway, water-works, &c., to
'tc:s,l__ tlB, and the Corporation, including assessments upon' the-
Zewu dues
bentolls, £47,279, making a grand total of £795,908;
ttre had a discrepancy in the rates of assessment, and
ti e! Years ago the vestry de;ermined there should be an equa-
zati" of valuations; accordingly it was done, and last year's
Pentassess was charged upon the new valuation—the assess-
had othe present year had been revised, and, after deductions
had b
et, • ,eeri made to various claimants, amounted to what het had
w;te,,a9' stated. The last year, owing to a heavy debt, together
tbeu'orl increase in the county-rate, required a rate of 2s. 6d. in
23. fund—this year beginning in March, 1833, the rate was
for titit• including the county-rate, and a rate of Id. in the pound ,
Li, e servic-
e of the church and clergy ;—the county-rate for '
'Ter erP°o), amounted from £12,000 to £15,000 per annum.
women e
are 1800 persons now in the Workhouse including the
and
and children. The accounts of the parish are printed
Published annuall The principle of assessment was im-
Portanty. , not only to Liverpool but to the whole of the kingdom, asethere was no law to govern the principle of valuation, the
eava seers of the poor being left entirely to their own discretion
n3..t° what.portion of value in rent they shall take. The assess-
se7nsts vaned in the different towns of the kingdom, the over-
seers
1.,,,er being left without a
olaw to guide them. The parish f
ao"ndakthefieepldarvvisahsoafsrezds
was
noeo-tsioxothg p rt of the annual value,
I since assessed at one-tenth
earpthr?eteialue and other towns, in the same way, were left to the
of overseers. He thou ht that there should be a law
Nts„ed .h,Y his Majesty's government so as to take the respontsie-
kinL°" a public officer, which would confer a benefit on
th)
e .‘-',Otri at large, as by that means, the poor's-rates would
.e
quausedhis duties' and
the
overseer would have a law to protect him in
Mr. Poster
the churchwarden, here inquired of the commis-
relatirs whether they had taken upon their notes any evidencehoue? to the treatment of the paupers in the Liverpool Work-
thMr• Commissioner Wilkinson replied that they had not, as
;',eY.liad declined taking the evidence as being irrelevant to the
.equiry.
ii.3llr. Poster thought that something had been said by Dr. Col-
t„',_ ,eand others on the subject, and he had documents to produce
"ri,;.,,h would confute the statements made. . air. Wilkinson replied that they had not taken any of the
statements; however they had no objection to receive the docu-
rne_nts alluded to.
Mr.
Foster said he would procure them by to-morrow.
b ntr• Myers rose to explain away an impression which might
_
e imbibed by the court, that he had refused to pay the dock
.tues
13„11 no a vessel lying in the Prince's Dock, called the John
ilo-a".: He had made inquiries at the office, and found that
d 'count of the dock dues owing for that vessel had been rcu-
itered 1,
b -Y the Dock Estate; and he did not see, especially in his
H",,n,ec, why such an imputation should be cast uponlim.-•-
b a old not know what the commissioners had got upon their
"ks, but he begged to state that no demand had ever been
raade for the dues
~. Mr. Foster, the secretary, explained that what he had said
,l' a s .
)Myers
in answer to an inquiry the commissioners. Mr. _
pwould be aware that no claims could be furnished until the vessel
ai,ne to clear out, when it would be stopped until the dues were
now Lid• appeared, from referring to the books; that the dues
ow Ine on that vessel amounted to £3Ol.
Mr. '
ers was of opinion, that Sir George Drinkwater i,ght
have spare d himself the unnecessary remark he made yestmerday
oh the subject.
hsir Geore Drinkwater remarked, that he had said nothing
e would not now repeat.
;14„r• Myers here said that he was a member of the Dock Com-
"ee, but owed it nothing. He would advert to his former
evidence respecting the management of that committee. He
pre
•h°Pvieused the commissioners had upon their books the statement he
ly made on the committee of sewers and surveyors. It
titipeared that the commissioueis now had on complaints from
w use committees, therefore it might be inferred that they
~orked well on their present principle, and he wished the Dock
ruirnittee to be constituted in a similar way. He hoped be-
L''.r! the Commissioners adjourned that they would summon
lo•tore them the board of commissioners of sewers, for the pur-
re of ascertaining how their system of management worked.
tioe thought it within scope of the Corporation inquiry, as a por-
4t„oef!,he corporate funds flowed into. this trust..
in o Town-clerk intimated that it would save a great deal of
trguvenience in not summoning the Boaid of Sewers. He ad-
betted that the system did work well, that no board could work
otter, and that it was composed of nine of the Common Coun-
tind fifteen householders.
t*,;•,r. Myers being satisfied on the above point,
"e Town-clerk asked Mr. Myers, as a man who had been
extensiv 1
and i o y engaged in business, as to the amountof the expo.drt:
m cuports, so as to give an idea of the amount Of town dues par
1., r• Myers said that he was connected with the house of
L..vir.art, `flyers' ue ler th • ' and Co. for many years. To the best of his
R2u e exports of the country through Liverpool were
in '"uu,oo, of which £1,000.000 were in woollens, £12,000,000
, cotton goods and yarn, £1,000.000 in linens, £1,200,000 in
aardware, 1.:350,000 in earthenware; in silk £15,000; 41:10 other articles £ll,OOO. The imports were £15,000,000,. of
in salt
tradelc 5,000,000 were in raw cotton, £5,000,000 in the Irish
tlj and £5,000,000 in other articles; upon that amount the
_a_ of town dues would be about 20d. per cent. He did not
consider the town dues a burden in amount ; but they were,
,7_obtedly, a grievance on certain articles; but did not think
°Ty drove away any portion of trade. The amount of the trade
Liverpool,
guess he
On commission, according to the best
`e°l-thi make, was 1-7th of the £35,000,0ft which, from his own
knowledge and
observation, he should consider an extreme
amount.
• In answer to a question from the Town-clerk,
ersnr,. Myers said that after taking the estimate he bad, he
Ca vvever they
'ci not say that the town dues were oppressive in amount,
might be upon certain articles. He thought that
~ seventh part of the £35,000,000 was the extreme amount; but
'he gave it merely as a reseneral opinion.
To'l • Thornely considered that the inference drawn by the
or your elerk, from the amount of town dues paid by a townsman
fell eigner, incorrect; because, whoever paid it, it ultimately
la °Pon the consumers. When Lord Althorp reduced the tax
. Americans
cotton id. per tb, he did it not for the benefit of the
the ericans but of the consumers. Whilst upon the subject of
receive dues, Mr. Thornely said he might allude to having
.t„ d, that day, a letter from a corn merchant of Manches-
Wer',,,,eomplaining
s.:B Mill/Riled to
that, having discharged his cargo at. Runcorn,
pay the Liverpool town dues.
cle-7tfietkwrsofall examined by the Town-cleik.—Did not consi-
• it free dues upon the African trade, before he was made
the ebe heavy thany formed a very light portion of
tered''penses, not more £lO a voyage; owing to the
_scat-
-1.4
r_ . state of the warehouses, they were subject to additional
Carta antes, and increased cartage was incurred ; the charges
threceal'age' orterage, cooperage, and rent, which were about
c. tunes the amount of the town and dock dues, were the
. Tauses of the difference in port charges between Liverpool and
,-"rudon. in 1825, there were 47 acres of dock room, and since
!..?at period 13 acres had been added, which would be completed
in two or three. years, so that he calculated• they would then
• have three
the dock room they had eight years ago, as the 43
• with F•ontained more quay room than the 47—that circumstance,
worl.the sheds around the docks, afforded opportunities for
, therelni;', which were not afforded before,=generally speaking,
-Pool Btu." greater despatch in London, but occasionally Liver-
-0111... irliassed that city ;—in steam-boats liarticularly, he need
eh! Mention Sir John''Tobin's boats to Waterford, which dis-
• te:',,r_ged their cargo the ensuing morning, after sailing hence,
",,Iranother on board, and appeared here the day after.
a„t',l • Horsfall cross-examined by Mr. Radcliffe.—The docks
IX warehouses in London were the property of companies,
d,,"_l landed the goods and took them into their charge. The
f,`,. dues in L.ndon include the ether expenses, and conse
asr. NI •
nil illy the Liverpool dock dues cannot be compared eith them.
yelps observed, that the value of shares in the London
_
, h7.t.,docks were much depreciated a £lOO share in the L mdon
ocita cnniPany being only worth £56, so that if the merchants
the
decline
return for thei pital, the rates would be double;
be. of the shares might be accounted for, from there
I,u_g more docks and less business
Hors-
fall Radcliffe said that what had been stated by Mr. Hors-
doielkshowed the necessity of erecting warehouses around the
and ts,7eaud when that took place the interests of the Dock Estate
,ro
__Corporation would be conflicting.
at'"" • Brown here rose and said that Mr. T. B. Horsfall and
r. Rob
dude. ertson Gladstone had made some remarks yesterday
. ?ffer %,.,1,,1ts (Mr. Brown's) absence, upon which he wished to
thing meet—e
"Planation On retiring from the court yesterday,
with Mr. Rob. t n Gladstone, who said he had some-
MrlL° TY which he wished him (Mr. B.) to hear He tald
• pessibleds °fie
, returuthwatthhee was going othina
in attends to a meeting, and should, if
gt day, but if not, he should be
expeote.miatice the followine day, and he consequently did not
in alle •
that
tor. Gladstone have made any observations
• obiee,!'„oo hitn in his absence. When Mr. Gladstone had
brib• "ct to the w d,. ' ersal " • allusion to the ractice of
, Ing the , or univ , , in
that that •
his int oe dock masters, he (Mr. B.) had stated was
GhostPoression
h ; but as far as regarded the observations of Mr.
Gladstonne' -8
collid only say that the houses of Brown and
peblic ~,!' had been before the public for many years, and the.
-r, p.l. 3".0t judge of their respective merits. The remarks of
the, 0,,, rlorsfall did not in any way confute his argument, as
flnAleuti went to show that some merchants had greater in-
hot know" others in getting their vessels into port. He did
tarty w• wh'it NIL llorsfall meant by " Mr. Brown and the
Liver with whom he acts." Did he mean the merchants of
h.,, Pool ?or the bl'
"°re the pu ic at large ? He was convinced that,
iimilernor' "w regulations, it had been the practice from time
'lay said , ial to fee the clock masters; and Mr. M'Niel had that
the „ti that if Mr. Horsfall; was ignorant of time fact, he wa.-
. in the rroPccrson that was. He was sure that every gentleman
that he e
( committee, be of what politics he might, would state
committeMr. 13.) had faithfully performed his duties on the
abuses. ?and had been instrumental in correcting many
state What therockle, who was a great shipowner, would
practice had been.

Mr. Thomas Brocklebank, shipowner, deposed to its having
been a practice to fee the dock masters, previous to 1825, other-
wise, the shipowners were put to a great deal of trouble. He
would further state that, to avoid the difficulties which he had
previously encountered, hi had on oue or two occasions feed
the dock • masters. He had not done so since 1825, and be-
lieves that the practice is altogether abolished, for he had never
heard of an instance since that period.
By Mr. Radcliffe.—The dock dues were lower in London
than in Liverpool, and believed there was greater despatch and
accommodation in London than LiverpooL He had recently
received news of a vessel which had been taken in at the dock
gates at twelve o'clock at night, and it was expected. to be clear-
ed in a few days.
By Mr. T. Case.—Thinks that the despatch in clearing in
London may be owing to the warehouses being attached to the
docks, and there was no expense of cartage. Does not knoW
that the Custom-house hours of working in London are longer
than in Liverpool.
In answer to questions put to Mr. Myers by Mr. Radcliffe,_
that gentleman said that the present system of paying dock
masters was according to the quantity of tonnage they accom-
modated, but they had a certain salary besides. Mr. Brown
was a great promoter of that system of paying the dock masters.
Mr. Robertson Gladstone rose to reply to what had fallen
from Mr. Brown. Without at all wishing to doubt the cor-
rectness of Mr. Brown's intentions, he certainly must say, that
Mr. Brown had erroneously represented the conversation that
took place on his entering the court yesterday. Mr. Brown
was then about to retire; but he understood him to say; on his
representing to him that he was going to notice what he had
mentioned in court on the previous day, that he was then pro-
ceeding to attend a meeting, but would return in a few mi-
nutes. Finding, after some delay, that Mr. Brown did not re-
turn, ho did not consider he was justified in postponing the
contradiction of a statement which Mr. Brown had brought
forward agaiust the merchants and shipowners generally. Mr.
B. appeared to complain of what he (Mr. R. G.) had remarked on
the previous day in reply to that statement; but he thought that
he (Mr. R. G.) was the party to complain, and not Mr. Brown.
Mr. Brown had thought proper to say, that, in the year 1825,
it was the universal practice to bribe the dock masters. Ile
denied the truth of this allegation. He stood there, therefore,
not as the accusing, but as the defending, party. He re-stated,
that, in conversation, Mr. Brown had said, in explanation of
his. charge, that the practice of bribing to which he alluded was
generally adopted among the American houses. He certainly
was surprised to hear such a statement from Mr. BroWn ; for,
whatever his own private opinion might have been, he should
scarcely have ventured to make such a charge. He said he
could not retract one word of what he had represented as hav-
ing passed in conversation between Mr. Brown and himself.
Mr. Gladstone then begged permission to ask Mr. Brockle-
bank,—as he had stated that it was the practice with many of the
ship-brokers -.to,.bribe the dock masters,—whether he made
that avowal of his own personal knowledge or mere matter of
assertion ?

Mr. Brocklebank said he did not know it of his own personal
knowledge.
Mr. Robertson Gladstone then asked if Mr. Brocklebank
had not, occasionally, five or six vessels in dock for any other
person's one, and whether he did not require a despatch incom-
patible with a fair regard to the interests of others.
Mr. Brocklebank said he had only two ships at present in
Prince's Dock, but occasionally he had as many as five or six at
the same time.

Mr. T. B. Horsfall would again repeat the statement which
he made yesterday, that Mr. Brown had libelled the merchants
of the town iu saying that bribing the dock masters was the
universal practice. He would just mention three of the houses
to whom he alluded yesterday, and he was sure the gentlemen
in court would hear him out in saying, that they were three of
the most extensive mercantile houses and shipowners in the
town,—he alluded to Messrs. Taylor, Potter and Co., Messrs.
Sandbach, Tinne and Co., and Sir John Tobin, to say nothing
of Messrs. Gladstone and other gentlemen who were present to
answer for themselves.. He would repeat, that these gentlemen
in common with himself considered Air. Brown's statement a
libel upon their characters. (Cheers.) It was a remarkable
fact, and a fact which he respectfully begged the commissioners
would take a note, that the only two individuals who stood con-
victed in that court (and that, too, by their own confession) of
bribing the dock masters were Messrs. Brown and Brockle-
bank, two members of the Dock Committee, elected by the rate-
payers, whilst against the merchants who were on the. commit-
tee, elected by the Common Council froM among their own body,
there was not the shade cf a shadow of a charge. Cheers.)
Mr. Brown denied this.
Mr. T. B. Horsfall replied that if Mr. Brown denied its being
his individual act, he admitted it was the act of his house.
Mr. Myers wished it to be observed, that the bribery com-
plained of took place under the former constitution of the Dock
Committee.
Mr. Thornely said, that foreign vessels required more despatch
than English tines, because they were obliged to give bona to
take their seamen back with them, consequently their seamen
were all on full pay during the time they were in Liverpool,
with the addition of fifteen shillings each a- week as board
wages, and their captains used to be well aware that nothing
could be effected without bribes, and were obliged to give them
to get berths. He then adverted to a letter, which he had
written some years ago, to the Dock Committee, on the subject
of improving the docks and facilitating the despatch of business.
He thought that the docks were capable of doing a great deal
more work if the committee were to have more effective and
more numerous officers, and occasionally visit them personally.
He hoped that an application would be made to government to
pay the landing-waiters in proportion to the work done which
would much facilitate the despatch of business, and. prevent the
necessity of seeking for extra docks.
Mr. Robertson Gladstone questioned Mr. Thornelv as to his
personal knowledge, at any time, of bribing the do'ck masters
in the American trade.

Mr. Thornely said he believed formerly it was the case, but
not so at present: he did not personally know of any instance
of bribery.
Mr. Leathom said that he had seen the printed bill of a ship-
broker, who had now a great business in the town, in which
were blank spaces for sums given to dock-masters and gate-
men, which used regularly to be charged to those merchants
who consigned to him.
Mr. liorsfatl.—During a period of thirty-five years in which
he bad been in business, never gave or authorised a single bribe
to a dock-master.

Mr. Thomas Tobin likewise disclaimed having done so. He
had been in business twenty-six years, and had had the whole
management of the shipping department, and never knew a six-
pence to be given to the dock-masters. During the whole of
his time, and when his ships could not get a berth, he had gone
round the docks and inspected the books to see if any prefer-
ence was given to other people, and had never found mien to be
the case.
Mr. Brown said the books were kept in a very irregular man-
ner prior to the new regulations.
Mr. Wallace Currie rose to make a few remarks on the evi-
dence given by Mr. Shorthouse on the previous day relative to
the public schools. It was his opinion that a sweeping censure
had been.cast upon the schools alluded to by that gentleman.
Mr. Shorthouse had stated that the children in the schools had
not their lessons so explained to them as to render them intel-
ligible. He was one of the committee of the South School, and
had examined the pupils in various branches of their education,
and had been surprised at the knowledge displayed by their
answers. Mr..Barratt, the master of the Corporation School,
was strongly recommended from the Blue 'Coat Hospital, and
he did not know a snore_ exemplary man, or one more popular
amongst the children. The childrenat that school were not only
taught writing and arithmetic, but geography and history; and
their reading was not confined solely to the Scriptures, but
they were furnished with history, voyages, trave:s, and other
works calculated to instruct and amuse the youthful mind.—
There was an halflearly examination of the scholars, at which
the Mayor presided, and prizes were given out to the most deserv-
ing and the best informed. This system was pursued at both
the North and the South Schools, and a better system of educa-
tion, in his opinion, could not he adopted. He admitted that
there were very defective schools for the education of children in
other large towns, and he thought that it would be absolutely
necessary that an act of Parliament should pass for schools to
be established in every parish, at a national cost; and that those
persons who had not the means wherewith to educate their child-
ren should be compelled to send them to the parish schools.—
Mr. Currie then alluded to the system of polling at elections,
and said he hoped to see the day when the poll would be taken
in One day, by which means a great deal of disorder and drunk-
enness would be prevented.
The Town-clerk was also of opinion that great benefit would
arise from the poll being taken in one day at elections, which
might easily be done in eight hours, by the erection of sufficient
booths.
Mr. Currie here adverted to the inefficient state of the police
in Toxteth-park and Harrington, and ssid, that for want of a
good police there was a facility to the commission of crime. He
hoped that the time would come when the borough of Liverpool
comprehended the present out-boundaries. At present, if the
Liverpool officers of police did their duty, they drone all the
vile characters from the borough to Toxteth-park and Har-
riri,c,rton. The places he had alluded to had no select vestry, no
commissioners of police, no commissioners for lighting, watch-
ing, and scavenging, nor court of requests, but the affairs were
managed by an illegal body: To remedy all the evils under
which the inhabitants now existed, it was in contemplation to
have got a public bill, but the proposition was thrown overboard
by the present rulers of Toxteth-park. The scheme of a general
act of Parliament. for Toxteth-park was projected by theMavor
of Liverpool and the magistrates; but from the opposition it
had met with from the inhabitants of those adjacent townships,
the laudableintentions of the magistrates were not carried into
effect

Mr. Francis Jordan corroborated the statement of Mr.
Currie as to the defective state of the police in the districts he
had named, and alluded to the ill effects produced by the oppo-
sition of the inhabitants to any measure to rectify the evils.
Mr. Corrie, the receiver of town dues, here said, that he wished
to correct a misstatement made by
.Mr. Bolton on a previous
day, who had stated that the receiver of town dues had not
voted at the last election; he begged to say that he gave his
vote to Lord Sandon.

The Town-clerk read a document respecting the sale of laud
at Wallasey Pool, by which it appeared that the laud sold by
Sir John 1 obis to the Corporation, was conveyanced in De-
cember, 1828.

Mr. Joseph Mallaby, solicitor, sworn.—There had been a lot.
of land purchased inGleveland-street, (Birkenhead,) in Sep-
tember, 1828, for £505, for a part of which he gave afterwards
£1230, which he had sold for £1750; for the remainder he gave
f.:1000, ancfstill held it ;—land which was worth a few years ago
4s. per yard, is now selling at 10s. to 12s. per yard; he consi-
dered the purchase of the Corporation a judicious speculation,
and they had given no more than he himself had paid for land
in the same neighbourhood;—within the last ten years the
neighbourhood had undergone a greater change than any other
he knew of, in consequence of the advantages of transit it en-
joyed by means of steam-vessels. Mr. Laird formerly projected
a ship-canal through Wallasey Pool to the sea, in which Sir
John Tobin took an active part; Messrs. Telford, Nimmo, and
other eminent engineers were employed to survey, and the
Corporation purchased the land from Sir John Tobin to prevent
that plan.
The court then adjourned at three o'clock until half-past ten
in-the morning.
TWENTY-SECOND DAY.
Yesterday (Thursday) the commissioners resumed the inves-
tigation into the affairs of the Corporation.
Mr. Forwood, the overseer, came forward and said that he had
the day before omitted to make a statement relative to the Irish
poor.
now stated that the expences of conveying Irish pau-
pers, within the county of Lancaster, and passing them from
Liverpool to Ireland, including those brought from other coun-
ties, would continue to be defrayed by the county of Lancaster
until the Ist of January, 1834. Flom and after that time, by the
act of 3 and 4of William IV., chap. 40, (procured in August,
1833.) the charges and expences of conveying and passing them
would be defrayed by the parishes from whence they are remov-
ed, and be repaid by the respective counties in which those pa-
rishes were situated.
Mr. Joseph King, who had yesterday promised to procure an
accurate account of the number of children educated at the va,
rious schools in the parliamentary borough of Liverpool, here
red a statement to. that effect; from which it appeared that the
number of all denominatiOns, at the various charity schools,
amounted to 13,194.
Dr. Collins handed up a statement of the number of Catholic
schools, and was of opinion that several unnecessary expences
of the Corporation ought to be apidied to the education of youth.