The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-09-01 00:00:00

SCOTCH CHURCH COMMISSION.

The Earl of ABERDEEN, in calling the attention of the house
to this subject, said it was not second in importance to any that
could come under their lordships consideration. His Majesty's
government had issued a commission of inquiry into the means
and nature of the religious instruction afforded by the church of
Scotland. This commission originated in consequence of nu-
merous petitions from Scotland for an extension of the means of
religious worship in connexion with the church of that country.
Government thought proper to issue a commission, he presumed,
for the purpose of ascertaining whether public assistance ought
to be afforded in aid of the private contributions raised in Scot-
land for the purpose of supplying additional church accommo-
dation. He foresaw, at an early period, that this commission,
from its nature, could not fait to excite dissatisfaction in Scot-
land, and the prediction which he had ventured upon this sub-
ject was soon accomplished. The commission of the General
Asserably met on the 13th of August, and came to a resolution
that the commission, as at present constituted, was not entitled
to the confidence of the church of Scotland. It came to this re-
solutioh on the ground that among the commissioners were the
names of persons decidedly hostile to any connexion between
church and state—persons who were unfriendly to the church
of Scotland, and did not possess tbat knowledge and experience
of the subject necessary for carrying the professed objects of the
inquiry fairly into effect. A division took place on this resolu-
tion, when there were 90 in favour of it, and 3 against it; or,
more properly speaking, three individuals were for adjourning
the consideration of the subject. This was a very strong pro-
ceeding in the General Assembly, which was not a political
body, and seldom or never meddled in political matters unless
its interests were vitally concerned in them. The majority on
this occasion was composed of 50 clergymen and 40 taxmen of
various shades of political opinions. In fact, the resolution was
proposed by a gentleman of the most liberal opinions, and sup-
ported by others of the same sentiments as the noble viscount.
The three individuals who objected to the resolution were three
whig.attornies, or, as they were called in Scotland, writers to
the signet, but no clergyman could be found to support the
amendment. The assembly proceeded to adopt this course from
their knowledge of the gentlemen composing this commission,
and doubtless their opinion must have been strengthened when
they learned the terms of the commission. In looking at the
memrrers of the commission, he declared that he had not the
least objection to individuals belonging. to the same political
party as the noble viscount—far from it, provided they enter-
rained friendly feelings towards the church of Scotland ; he had
rather there should be persons of such political sentiments on
the commission. He did not even object to the names of dis-
senters among the commissioners, merely on the ground of their
being dissenters, because he hoped the great body of dissenters
was nut hostile to the, church of Scotland ; but when he saw
persons who were opposed to all religious establishments ap-
pointed commissioners, he thought it a mockery to place such
individuals on a commission to inquire into the expediency of
extending the efficiency of the established church of Scotland.
He was no friend to any church establishment except so far as
it afforded a security for the maintenance of true religion and
the extension of religious knowledge; but for the accomplish-
ment of those objects he looked upon establishments as highly
desirable, and it was his firm conviction that the church of Scot-
land had fulfilled them. With respect to the opinions of indi-
viduals composing the commission, he might refer to a book
published by one of its members, which he admitted to be very
ably written, and to contain the best arguments in favour or the
voluntary system that he had ever seen. This production dis-
played great moderation of language, but was composed in a
spirit of decided hostility to every religious establishment, which
the writer endeavoured to show must necessarily he unjust and,
unchristian. When he stated his opinion on the subject on a
former evening, the noble viscount appeared impressed with the
necessity of giving it further consideration. He understood
the noble viscount to state, that considerable discontent pre-
vailed among the dissenters, and that they. complained of not
being adequately represented in the commission. He thought
if the commission was established to try the merits of the case,
as between establishments and the voluntary principle, that the
dissenters ought to be represented, but he always understood
the ebject of the commission to be limited to the expediency of
the required grant, and he must say, however he might still be
disposed to admit dissenters as members of the commission, that
the admission of avowed enemies of the church of Scotland
in that capacity was an act of gross injustice, and calculated
to defeat the avowed object of the commission. (Hear, hear.)
He also objected to the instructions given to the commissioners
to inquire into the funds of the established church and the
amount or disposition of tithes or teinds. In Scotland, the
teinds were entirely private property; some being in the hands
of capitularies (persons in the same situation as lay impropri-
ators in this country,) and the greater part being held by land-
owners who had purchased the tithes of their own land, and
had as good a right to them as to the remainder of their estates.
The teinds were not the property of the church of Scotland,
which was merely entitled to a competent stipend out of them,
to be determined by the court of session at Edinburgh. The
remainder was private property, and, though the amount of
teinds might be augmented, it was impossible to appropriate
them to the support of an additional church or minister. This-
species of property, then, was not open to the proposed inquiry.
The commission, like another of which their lordships had
lately heard so much, gave very extensive powers on this head ;
but, whatever might be thought of the legality of the municipal
corporation commission, there could be no doubt here, for the
king was not even visitor of the Scotch church, and the whole
powers of the commission were illegal and nugatory. He ob-
jected to the appointment of local commissioners of inquiry, I
which was contemplated under the original commission. f in-
formation were all that he required, it might have been obtain-
ed without the appointment of a new commission, and without
the cost of a single farthiug, through a commission now in ex-
istence for building churches in the Highlands, the duties of
whichcommission had been admirably executed for several
years at no expense, with the exception of a small salary to the
secretary. It was not with respect to members of the church of
England that the church of Scotland entertained any appre-
hensions; on the contrary, to no quarter did she look more
confidently for sympathy and support than to the right rev.
bench, and he believed the demand would be responded to.
Though himself a member of the church of Scotland, no one
could be more attached to the established church of this
country, and he felt confident that members of the church of
England looked with like kindly feelings at the establishment
in Scotland. He entreated the noble viscount to consider this
important subject without reference to party, and to take such
steps as might be deemed most conducive to the welfare of the
church and to the satisfaction of the people of Scotland. He
entreated the noble viscount to reconsider the matter, and, if he
could not wholly withdraw the commission, at least to modify
and explain its objects and improve the composition of its mem-
bers. If the noble viscount would take this course, the church
of Scotland had every disposition to co-operate with the govern-
-thew lie tire. accomplishment of the objects which it professed to
have in view, and the noble viscount would find that by adopt-
ing this recommendation he would avoid much trouble to him-
self and his government.
Viscount MELBOURNE admitted the importance of the sub-
ject referred to by his noble frieud Aberdeen. He (Lord M.)
was aware of the decision of the assembly on this subject—of
the dissatisfaction felt by the adherents of the established church,
and of the discontent of every other religious denomination in
Scotland. After universal content and agreement, he did not
know whether the next best testimony to the impartiality of a
proceeding such as this was not discoverable in the universal
dissatisfaction of all parties, for that feeling showed that the
commission was not exclusively or partially constituted.
(Laughter.) It would be well, in reference to this as to other
subjects, if we could bind persons to act as commissioners who
stood entirely aloof from prepossession or a suspicion of par-
tiality ; but that was absolutely impossible; for if you hart an
impartial commission, in other words a commission composed of
persons wholly unacquainted with the subject, you must also
have an ignorant commission, one unacquainted with the sub-
ject of inquiry. (" Hear," and renewed laughter.) Failing
an impartial commission, it became necessary to look for truth
from the conflict of adverse opinions, and on this principle he
maintained that the commission was fairly composed. The
speech of Dr. Macfarlane in the great assembly corroborated
his view of the case. That gentleman stated 'Mr. Dick, to
whom his noble friend had alluded, to be a very respectable
did not the tihmapt
uttheedfatoeth
irirnf tthetins
pgeernettlee:
man, and that his book was the best on his awn side of the
question.mai having Npouwe forthh e
lv, moderately, and in a philosophical tone and manner, (for no
liitterness or acrimony was charged against his production,)
should disqualify h:in from forming one of the commission.
Besides, he had always found that the best way of mitigating
extreme opinions was to employ the parties holding them in the
public service, (laughter,) not that he supposed the modifica-
tion of sentiment to arise from sordid motives, (a laugh,) but
becameinexpediency
thofuthl otherfunctionaries.uhlic
gentlemen on
t the
commission, as his noble friend had not gone into particulars,
he should abstain from touching ors their individual opinions.
On the whole, the commission appeared to him as fairly consti-
tuted as such a body could well be, but it wits impossible to
satisfy conflicting interests. One party, that of the church, re-
quired that every body on the commission should be favourable
to the required grant.
The Earl of AnsinnEEN.—No; but that they should not be
unfavourable to the cbgrch of Scotland.
Lord IslennourtNE.—Well, he apprehended that was much
the same thing; for persons favourable to the church would be
desirous of procuring it the grant. But the other side was

equally unreasonable, and required that none should be on the
commission but persuus unpledged or hostile to the establish-
ment. Tbe application for a grant of ,public money originated
with the Scotch church; its friends said there was not sufficien t
aerommudation for its numbers, and its opponents declared that
there was more church room than the present worshippers could
till. Those assertions were made so decidedly by each party ,
that the government thought it wise to inquire into the real state
of the case before taking any further step. Perhaps the terms
of the commission had been extended somewhat widely in con •
sequence of a subsequent application. His noble friend sa d
that the commission was contrary to the fundamental principles
df the Scotch church, and that it assumed powers which the
King himself did not possess • but without pretending to have
mastered the whole subject, he declared that he could not see
how the commission violated the rights or privileges of the
Scotch establishment. He did not wish to say anything which
could he construed into an attack on the fundamental principles
or on the practice of the presbyterian church of Scotland; but
did the noble lord mean to say, that if ever any allegations were
made respecting the existence of abuses, or respecting the mode
of reforming the abuses in that church, it was not in the power
of either King or parliament to inquire into those allegations ?
If the noble lord meant to say that, it was a rediktio ad absurdum,
It was a. higher pretension than had ever beeftset up by the ad-
vocates,o,f the Roman catholic church against the principle of
the reformation. It was exactly the objection which that
church had urged against the proceedingsof the early reformers.
They said, "This cannot be done by the laity—the laity cannot
reform the church—the church must refiam itself." fhat
had been the objection made by the Roman catholic* to all the
proceedings of parliametit'during the progess of the reformation.
But the main question was this; the church. of Scotland had
demanded a grant of public money... If it meant to establish its
right to that grant in order to carry off the spiritual instruction
of the people of Scotland, had not his Majesty and had not the
state a right to say to the church, "Show us what your funds
are, and let us see whether your
,property is or is not sufficient
'for the purposes to which you would apply. it? " These were
the grounds on which the commission was tssued. The zeal of
other parties had taken advantage of the fact of a commission
being issued, and had reqUired that the inquiry should also be
directed to other purposes, which might wisely be inquired into;
and for that purpose the iriquiry hail been made as extensive as
possible, and the commission had been constituted as their lord-
ships now saw it. His noble friend had said that the powers
ranted by this commission were at once illegal and nugatory.
They might be nugatory, for they were not compulsory, but he
was quite certain they were not illegal. He contended likewise
that the commission was constituted properly and impartially.
He was concerned to hear that the appointment of this'coni-
mission had excited discontent in Scotland, but be was consoled
to find that the discontent was not of a party nature, but that it
was extensive and universal. It was one of the stroogest proofs
that could be given of the impartiality with which the commis-
sioners had been selected that no party was pleased with
them. It often happened that things which.commeneed iu dis-
content ended better than was expected, whilst things which
commenced in universal satisfaction often terminated in general
discontent. He hoped that the discreet and prudent meaner
in which the commission would be executed would fulfil its ob-
jects without producing any of those disagreeable effects which
his noble friend had anticipated.
The Earl of RADDINGTON expressed his surprise that the
Coble lord (Melbourne) should have congratulated himself upon
the universal dissatisfaction which the appointment of the com-
mission had created in Scotland.
After a few observations from the Earl of Minto, the Duke
of Buccleuch, the Marquis of Breadalbane, the Marquis of
Bute, and the Earl of Aberdeen, the conversation ended.
A message from the Commons, by Mr. Hawes and others,
brought up the Great Western Railway bill, with their lord-
ships' amendments agreed to.
On the motion of the Earl of MINTO, the reform act (Scot-
land) amendment bill was read a second time, and ordered to
be committed on Monday next.
The house then (at a quarter to nine) adjourned to to-morrow
Saturday) at twelve o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, FRIDAY, AUGUST 28.
The SPEAKER took the chair at a quarter to four o'clock.
Sir SAMUEL WHALLEY presented a petition from St. Pan-
cras, complaining that the House of Lords had set itself against
the wishes of the people, and praying that the House of Com-
mons would not pass the corporations bill in a mutilated shape.
Another petition was presented by the same gentleman, from
the same parties, in favour of the Dorchester labourers.
Other petitions were presented to the house; —by Sir Edward
Codrington, about the corn laws and naval officers; by Mr.
Chalmers, Mr. Wilks, and others, about the corporations bill;
by Mr. Wakley, about taxes on knowledge; and by Mr. Hawes,
about spirit licenses.

GENERAL DARLING.
Mr. OSWALD reported to the house that, in the opinion of the
committee appointed to inquire into the conduct or General Dar-
ling; Norman M'Lean had, in giving his evidence, been guilty
of gross prevarication.
Mr. NICHOL moved that he be taken into custody.—Agreed
to,

• IRON TRADE.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON wished to know from the president
of the board of trade what answer had been returned by the
Hanoverian government to the remonstrance that had been
sent from the government of this country, relative to the high
rate of duties on British iron. He also wished to know what
had been done by the French government relative to the high
duty charged by that country upon iron going to sea.
Mr. P. THomsorr said that he was not in possession of any
answer from the Hanoverian government relative to the sub-
ject the hon. member had adverted to, but he would say that,
unless the answer were satisfactory., he should feel no doubt in
recommending the crown to exercise the powers it possessed.
With respect to the latter question, he regretted that the pro-
gress made with respect to France had not been so speedy as
he could wish, as none had been made during the last session;
but he hoped for a better state of things before the termination
of the next session. One of the effects of not coming to an
arrangement was that the revenues of France were greatly in-
jured by the enormous quantity of British goods which had
been smuggled into that country. He wished to see trade as
free as possible; he would not saddle it with restrictions be-
cause others did 'so; yet he might be content in some instances
to tax himself for a short time, in order to show to others that
he would not submit with impunity to vexation. hnpositions.
in answer to a question from Sir F. FRENCH, on the subject
of Danish claims, the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that he could not entertain the claims of those who had goods
seized on board ship.

SUPPLY-MILITIA ESTIMATES

The house then went into committee of supply on the militia
estimates.

On the first vote being moved, "
Colonel PERCEVAL said he had heard it stated that the
government had taken upon itself to discharge all the staff of
one militia regiment, at the same time continuing that of ano-
ther. He wished to know whether this partial mode of pro-
ceeding had been pursued, and upon what grounds?
Lord HOWICK said the government had the power to do what
the hon. member had described, and in doing so had gone upon
the principle of keeping the staffs employed which appeared to
be the most effective and the most required.
_

Mr. HUME approved of the principle upon which government
had acted in this matter. _
_ _ _

After a few words from Mr. B. Hoy and Colonel SIBTHOBP
the vote was -agreed to, and the house resumed.
The slave trade (Sardinia) bill was read a third time. The
stamp and assessed taxes bill was reported.

MUNICIPAL CORPORATIONS BILL.
A message from the lords announced that their lordships had
passed the municipal corporations bill, with amendments.
This message, ou being read from the chair, was received by
Mr. Hume, Mr. O'Connell, and other hon. members of their
party with loud groans.. This proceeding, a most unusual one
in the House of Commons, excited a considerable sensation in
the house.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then rose for the pur-
pose of moving, not that the amendments only be printed, ac-
cording to the usual course, but that the whole bill, as amended,
be printed; and said that that was the only svav in which the
measure—a new measure in some respects, and certainly one
requiring full consideration—could be discussed. He trusted
that that arrangement would be productive of no serious delay,
as he expected that copies of the measure would be in the hands
of members by Monday next, when it would, he proposed, be
taken into consideration. It was at all events extremely desir-
able that they should have it before them in a complete state,
for the purpose of well-considering a measure which had attracted
more attention within that house, and, indeed, had excited more
interest out of that house, than any piece of legislation which,
since the passing of the reform bill, hail been propounded.
(Loud cries of " Hear, hear.") Such being the case, he trusted
that he might take the liberty of earnestly recommending hon.
gentlemen not to enter, at the present moment, into a discus-
sion which could not be productive of any possible good. and
which could be only in anticipation of that most serious discus-
sion which must take place when the bill was in their hands
after being printed, (loud cheers,) when they came not only to
express opinions but to proceed to a decision upon the subject.
He trusted, he would again say, that the question being one of
such interest and magnitude the house would not think that he
was acting in any shape improperly or unbecomingly, as one of
those most friendly to the bill as it was sent from that house, if
ho took the liberty of earnestly entreating them to postpone at
present a discussion *hid) could lead- to no good result, and
which might impede the fair, calm, and deliberate but resolute
(tremendous cheering) decision upon the subject. Ile would
therefore move that the bill, as amended, be printed and' taken
into consideration on Monday next.
Mr. HosiE concurred with the right hon. gentleman as to the
propriety of considering this, as well as every other measure
which came before them, calmly, and with deliberation ; but
hoped that nothing which had fallen from him would be taken
as holding out any idea of a hope that that house could accept,
or for oue moment entertain, the bill in its existing state. He
was against any such hope being for one moment held out—
against the supposition that they could for an instant listen to
the "amendments," as they were called, which bad been made
in the measure, or as he should say, the alterations which had
altogether ruined it—(hear, hear)—which had rendered it such
that they would be better without than with it. When, how-
ever, the copies of the amended bill should be before them,
they would be able to weigh the extent of the evils which the
bill had suffered ; for his own part, he believed them to be such
as rendered it wholly impossible for the house to agree to it ul-
timately. He said that with great ogret, because they were
then, on the 28th of August, seeing the last remnant of the two
great measures which had been the result of all their labours
during that session. (Hear hear.) Time had been lost, ex-
citement had been produced in the minds of the public, and a
disappointment bitter in proportion had followed—which could
not fail to be productive of the most serious consequences. The
right hon. gentleman had recommended, perhaps wisely, that
there should he no discussion at that period upon the subject.
All that he wished was to enter his protest against being sup-
posed to yield, in the smallest degree, to the propriety of the
amendments in question.
After a few inaudible words from Colonel SIBTHORP,
Mr. O'CoNNELL said the period was now conic, in which the
public opinion could not be trifled with—(loud cheers)—in
which the wants of this great country could not he looked
at slightingly—and in which, if great organic questions affect-
ing the constitution of the country came to be considered, the
blame would fall on those who had given rise to such a convul-
sive discussion—if he might use the expression—and not on
those who had endeavoured peaceably to ameliorate its institu-
tions. (Renewed cheering,.)

SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL.
This bill, after a dckiltory conversation, was read a second
time. ,

REGISTRATION OF VOTERS (IRELAND) RILL.

This bill was read a third time and passed.
Buckingham's compensation bill was, after a short discussion,
withdrawn.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved "that a committee he ap-
pointed to examine the lords' journals, to ascertain what pro-
ceedings had been taken by their lordships, if any, on the wills
hill and executors bill, sent to the lords from the commons."
Besides these bills, there was also the imprisonment for debt
bill, which it would appear was not likely to pass until witnesses
were examined. In the examination of witnesses upon the bill,
it was to be presumed that the bum-bailiffs, and sham-bail, and
low attornies, would come forward to testify that imprisonment
for debt was an excellent thing, and gave universal satisfaction.
He feared that this bill would share the fate of the two other
excellent measures included in his motion. These measures
had been generally approved of by the most eminent lawyers,

SEPTEMBER. 1, 1834.

and, after having been referred to, and approved of by, a tielect
committee, and carried up to the other house in the latter end
of June, it was desirable to know what had become of these
bills, and the only way to ascertain was by moving for this com-
mittee.

After a few words from Mr. ScAat.Err and Mr. Hewes the
motion was agreed to.
Sir E. CODRINGTON then moved for returns respecting all
naval officers, of whatever rank, who have been deprived of
their half-pay without their consent or the investigation of a
court martial from the year 1791) up to the present period, with
the alleged reason for such deprivation; also for the returns
respecting any person, whose half-pay has been restored to
them subsequently to such deprivation, with the alleged reasons
for such restoration.

Mr. C. Wool) opposed the motion, but he would consent to
entertain any case of particular hardship. The honourable
gentleman was proceeding, when au hon. member moved that
the house be counted.

The gallery was cleared, and, there not being forty members
present, the house adjourned.

HOUSE OF LORDS.—SATURDAY.
The house met at twelve o'clock. The Earl of Shaftesbury
.t on the woolsack.

The house went into committee on the glais reduction duty
bill; the bill was passed through this stage without anraltera-
tion. The capital punishment bill was read a second time, and
ordered to be committed on Monday. Some bills were brought
up from the commons; and the Islington market bill was read
a third time, passed, and sent to the commons for their assent
to the amendments introduced into it by the upper house.
Adjourned at two o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—SATURDAY
The Speaker took the chair at twelve o'clock.

SLPPLT.
Mr. F. BARING brought up the report of the committee of
supply. The resolutions were agreed to.

OATHS ABOLITION BILL.

Mr. F. BARING brought nrithe report of the committee on.
.he oaths abolition bill, which was received, and the bill ordered
..ct be engrossed, and read a third time on Monday.

SHANNON NAVIGATION BILL.
The house then resolved itself into committee on the River
Shannon navigation improvement bill.
The first clause having been puthy the chairman,
Mr. POTTER, Mr. PRYBIE, Alr. WALLACE, and Mr. WAR-
BURTON, objected to any advance of money to carry on the
proposed works on the Shannon.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said this bill was intro-
duced in consequence of several repeated inquiries by committees
of that house, but the bill did not carry out in their full effect
the recommendations of those committees. He did not propose
to the house to do this, and if it had been proposed by others he
would not have approved of it.
_The recommendation of the

committee was, thlti there should be a vote of public money for
this purpose—absolutely pledging the hense, not only to the
principle, but to a vote of public money for the adoption of the
principle. before they had a satisfactory plan and estimates, Ad,
above all, before arrangements were made with the parties
locally interested in order to protect the public against undue,
excessive, or extortionate claims, which would be a bar to the
undertaking altogether. I t was recommended by the committee

that the money should be advanced ; but from this recommenda-
tion be entirely dissented. He would not ask the house to ad-
vance one single farthing, except for the expences that must be
incurred by reason of the inquiry. The bill did not pledge the
house to the advance of any money; all it pledged the house to
was, that in the event of there being a satisfactory plan and
estimates, and in the absence of all unreasonable local demands,
the money should be hereafter advanced. The question was,
whether the crown, in its individual capacity being a party to
the uddertaking, which could not be effected without the inter-
position of the house, and the crown having no right to impose
the onus upon individuals who had neither the means nor the,
power to execute the work, that house was disposed to adopt the
principle of the bill by saying thatif the parties locally interest-
ed would provide one-half of the expense, and proper plari
were laid before parliament, they would be disposed to give the
other half. His hon. friend the member for Bridport said there
had been no similar cases. He could assure him that there had
been innumerable such cases. There was the case of the river

Barrow, and of- the Cam; bultheiresenivalasPeeial
A. very considerable portion of the navigation of the Shannon
belonged to the crown, and they were annually voting sums of
money for the imperfect maintenance of the navigation of that

river.
Mr. PRYINE.—HOW does it belong to the crown ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.—IL was vested in the
crown by the laws of the land. These were, as he said before,
several precedents : he would not speak of the Caledonian
Canal, which, he believed, was a failure, but them was the.
Highland Roads and Bridges, the interposition of parliament in
which case, according to Mr. Telford, was the means of advanc-
ing Scotland a hundred years in civilization. There was also
the Holyhead-road, the Menai Bridge, and the Plymouth`
Breakwater, and various other cases in which that house had
interposed. They could not expect that the local parties would.
submit to a proposition for binding their county rates for the
repayment of this money unless the house pledged itself to the
principle, and to advance the none y if a good case were made'
out. On these grounds he prayed the house to allow the bill to
remain in its present state. He had done his duty in proposing
the bill—he had done his duty by the committee and by the-
public ; and he hoped the house would enable him to treat with
the parties in Ireland. with whom he could treat effectively if
they saw that house disposed to entertain a favourable view of
the present case.
The bill then underwent a short discussion in the committee
and was passed. The report ordered to. be received on Monday.
Some other, bills were then forwarded a stage.
THE IRISH CLERGY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in asking leave to

bring in this bill, explained its objects and provisions at some
length. So long, he said, as the possibility of a hope existed
that the. great question relating to the Irish church was likely •
to be settled, government had abstained from bringing this bill
forward. It would be seen by the votes.of the other house, that
no steps were likely to be taken to forward the Irish church
bill throng+ parliament during the present session; that Lill
.had, in point of fact, been abandoned by his Majesty's govern- .
ment, on the ground. that it would not be satisfactory to the pec-
rile or to that house in its present shape. It was not, therefore,
the intention of government to proceed further with that mea-
sure, not did it seem likely that any steps would betaken by any
member of the other house to advance its progress beyond the
stage at which it had arrived. By the la*, as it at present stood.
if would be imperative on the government to put in suit all"
claims which the crown had for the recovery of the instalments
due under the million act by the Irish clergy. They would he
'compelled, however reluctantly, to adopt proceedings under that
act against the whole body of the Irish clergy, even in eases in•
which they might know that the parties had no means of paying
the demand, or that such a step could be taken without any good
-effect. (Hear.) He, for his part, would not undertake, in his
capacity of a minister of the crown, the responsibility of not dis-
charging his duty—the responsibility of, in short, suspending
the law of the land. If it became necessary to enforce the writ-
ten law against the Irish clergy, he could not withhold his sanc-
tion from such a proceeding, and certainly, unless the bill which
he purposed introducing were adopted, the government would
be bound to use every exertion in their power to enforce those
claimsno matter whether the party had the means ofpaying
or not. (Hear.) The house, however, would agree with him
in saying that it would be not only unjust but positively oppres-
sive, to enforce the law in such a way in cases in which it could
be made to appear that the clergy had not received their in-
comes, and could not, therefore, be expected to pay. (Hear.)
The object of this bill was not to remit a single farthing of those
claims, but to give the government authority, in case it could be
shown that any individual clergyman was not in a condition to
pay, to suspend ail proceedings for the instalment due by him,
until parliament should have reassembled again. If this bill
were nut passed, the government would have no alternative but
to proceed against every member of the Irish church, whether
they possessed means to satisfy the demand or not. There were
many of the Irish clergy who had earnestly entreated parlia-
ment to pass the Irish church bill, but there were othei s who
bad given opposition, of so unjust a nature; to that measure, as
to disentitle them to all courtesy. They would semi learn what
was the result of the defeat of that bill; but at present all he
asked of the house was, to grant to the government legislative
authority or power to abstain from the adoption of legal pro-
ceedings against all such individuals as should be proved inca-
pable of paying, for a term extending only to the sth April
nett. (Hear.) He. did not mean to propose that the claims
should altogether cease; on the contrary, he intended that the
right to enforce their recovery,'on the part of the crown, should
again revive in all respects, unless in the mean time a new bill
were brought under consideration, or a grant of public money
were obtained to render proceedings unnecessary. (Hear.)
The power which government sought by this bill might Learned
a dispensing power; and he trusted that those whom be had the
honour to address would not only perceive that the proposition
was a just and reasonable one, but admit that thtiy, and those
who acted in connexion with them, had done all in their power
to settle this question consistently with the principle of the reso-
lutions which had passed that house, and from which he, for his
own part, was not disposed even in the slightest degree to re--
treat. (Cheers.) They evinced nothing like personal or vin-
dictive feelings in their proceedings on this subject, and had
shown every possible disposition to consider it not only upon
principles of justice, but with a view tot he proper maintenance
of the church establishment itself. The government had been'
charged with being the enemies of the church—with desiring to, ,
work its destruction—but their proposition, if carried into effect,
would, he thought, be a triumphant answer, the best that could
be given to.the false imputations which had been cast, not only
on their inearares, but their motives, for it would prove, beyond,
the possibility of doubt, that they were neither indifferent about
the rights of the church, nor unsolicitous for the well-being or
the clergy. . (Cheers.) It was for the protection of the •clergy' -
that his Majesty's responsible advisers now proposed bringing
in this measure. But without trespassing further on the patience
of the house, he would move for leave to bring in a bill to alter
and amend the act of the 3d and 4th William IV., for the relief'
of the owners of tithes in Ireland.
The bill was read a first time and ordered to be read a second
time on Monday (yesterday.)
THE LORDS' JOURNALS.

On the motion of Mr. EW ART, a committee was appointed to
search the lords' journals, for the purpose of aseertaininu what
had become of the prisoners' counsel bill, and the bill for the
abolition of capital punishments, sent up to the lords several
months ago.
Several petitions were then presented to the house on various
subjects.