The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-04-30 00:00:00

Emperiat parlianunt.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MONDAY, APRIL 22.
Sir J. GRAHAM having proposed to take the second
reading of the Factory Bill at once, and debate the main
question ~f it on going into committee,
Mr. T DUNCOMBE contended, that the only proper
way of dealing viith this bill would be, to refer it to a
select coinwitiee. The working classes did not believe
that the reduction of time would involve a reduction of
wage.; and there ought to be a fair examination of work-
people and masters, that it might be seen which party
were right. The house was at present but too much dis-
posed to listen to the masters against the workpeople.
Lord Ashley. by agreeing to his present course, had sur-
rendered the whole ca-e. The noble lord now merely
proposed to take a flying shot at the bill when it was
leaving the house, atter the third reading; rind if that
shot missed, the bill would be gone before he could fire

second barrel. He would him:elf move, on the order of

the day for going into committee of the whole house. that
the bill should be referred to a select committee above
stairs.

Lord ASHLEY believed that the operatives had quite as
much knowledge of the subject as Mr. Duncombe, and
was sure they had ten times as much candour. Now,
they assured him that they entirely approved the course
he was taking.
Mr FERRAND said, that on the side of the working
classes were truth and justice ,• on the side of the mas-
ter., falsehood and injustice. He challenged the masters
to face the operatives at a meeting in the open air.
Mr. ROEBUCK desired to know to whom Mr. Ferrand
bad lately alluded when he stated at a public meeting that
a Minister of the Crown had used his influence to induce
a public officer to put forth a false statement for the pur-
pose of crushing a member of the house?
Mr. FERKAND.—If the hon. and learned member for
Bath had shown me the usual etiquette exhibited by hon.
members towards each other, 1 would have come down
to the house pro erly prepared to give him a full explana-
tion. As he has not done so, but adopted that system to
which he uittally resorts—that of coming duly prepared
to take an undue advantage of an unprepared member—l
must answer as well as I can. 141 r. Ferrand then► went
on to say that the minister was Sir James Graham, that
the member was himself, and that the public officer was
Mr. Mott, the poor-law commissioner.
Mr. ROF.BUCK.—The question I have put has not been
answered. The question which I put was, that a minister
of the crown had used his power as a minister to induce

an officer ea.ployed by the government to make a false
report. The hon. member for Knaresborouch has shown
that the report is false, but the first part of my question
remains still unanswered. That part of the charge that
the right hon. baronet used his power for this purpose
still remains without a reply. That charge, scandalous
as it is, the hon. member has not substantiated.

Mr. FERRAND.—I have performed my duty to the
house to the hest of my ability, and I tell the hon. and
learned member for Bath that he is not going to school
rue. fie has used language unbecoming him as a member
of this house and as a gentleman. (" Order, order,"
" Chair, eh ,ir.")
The SPEAKER.—The hon. member must retract the last
words he has used.

Mr. FERRAND —Certainly, as such, sir, is your deci-
sion. I shall say he has acted in a manner unbecoming
his positi ,n as a member of the house. The words I ut-
tered were these—that the right hon. baronet had taken
steps to procure a false report for the purpose of using it in
this house to crush a member of it. Those words I used
—those words I do not retract.

Mr. HUME said it was reported also to have been stated
by Mr. Ferrand, that Sir J. Graham had used his official
influence with the chairman of the Nottingham Election
Committee, to warp his decision respecting that election.
Mr. FERRAND declared that he had made no such
charge.
Sir R. PEEL, in reference to a report of his having said
something about a conflict between Chrivianity and the
Government on the Factory Bill, denied altogether that
he had ever said anything of the kind. What he had said
on the occasion when he was supposed to have uttered
this pat•sige was, that he believed the further reflection
of members was likely to increase the numbers of those
who would support the view of government.
The Factory Bill was then read a second time.
Dr. Nicnou. moved the second reading of the Eccle-
siastical Courts Bill, passed by the House of Lords. He
explained that the present measure proposed to abolish all
peculiar jurisdictions, thereby getting rid of about 300
courts; but to retain the diocesan courts, and to treat
every place and every benefice as within the archdeaconry,
diocese, and province of its actual locality ; to take away
ecclesiastical jurisdiction in matters of tithe and defama-
tion ; to make certain provisions for the introduction of
sivii.roce evidence and trial by jury; and to invest the
ecclesiastical judges with powers of enforcing their own
judgments. The bill proposed also to give compensa-
tions, assessable by the Treasury, to those officers whose
emoluments should have been taken away or greatly re-
duced by these ehanges.
After a short discussion, the bill was read a second
time.

Some desultory conversation followed upon the County
Courts Bill, which was committed pro forma", and the
other orders of the day were then disposed of.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-TUESDAY.

The Speaker called upon Mr. PERRAND, who said he
would neither retract nor deny what he had said in the
provinces during the Easter recess—to the effect that Sir
James Graham had used his influence, as a minister of
the crown, to induce Mr. Hogg, M.P. for Beverley, to
unseat Mr. Walter, of the Times, by giving his casting
vote in committee against that gentleman. The boa.
member, after a very few observations, suddenly sat
down. and immediately afterwards walked out of the
house, amidst loud laughter and cheering from all sides.
Mr. Hono then claimed, not the protection, but the
justice of the house, to adopt some course by which his
honour would be vindicated from Mr. Ferrand's charges.
Be was distinctly charged with having acted from impure
motives, and the house should either punish him, or cen-
sure the party who had paged upon him so foul an impu-
tation.

Sir J. GRAHAM was quite satisfied, seeing the manner
in which Mr. Ferrand had fled from both his accusations,
to leave the matter to the house and the public.
Sir R. PEEL, said it was a question for the house to say
vAietfier the matter should be treated with ridicule, or
seriously; if seriously, they should take time for reflec-
tion, lest they should establish a dangerous precedent.
His own opinion of it was, that there was nothing com-
parable to the whole affair since the time whth the con-
juror had- offered to walk into a quart bottle and then
suddenly disappeared. _ .

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, as Mr. Hogg had claimed
the- protection of. the house from the unsupported and
unretracted calumnies of Mr. Ferrand, he was quite wil-
ling to vote the charges false and calumnious.
Lord STANLEY thought there was not an individual
member of the base who did not believe that Mr. Fer-
rand knew, when he ,made the charges, that they were
utterly incapable of proof. He came there with an air of
boldness, and on -the first outbreak of indignation, he
quitted the house without retracting his gross and libel-
lous charges.
The SPEAKER, on being appealed to, advised that all
discussion should be dropped for the present, and in any
subsequent proceedings they ought to adopt the course
pursued in Mr. O'Connell's case.
A4er a few words from Mr. BLACKSTONE and Sir R.
H. 1/GL-is, the debate was adjourned until Wednesday.
Mr. BORTHWICK then rose to move an address to her
Majesty, praying that her Majesty will . be graciously
pleased ro afford to Parliament, in al: matters ecclesias-
tical, the advice and assistance of the clergy in convoca-
tion assembled, according to the constitution and the
ancient usage of the realm. While the hon. member was
yet speaking, however, the house was counted out.