The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-06-30 00:00:00

CASE OF THE DORCHESTER LABOURERS

Mr. WAKLEY moved, after recapitulating the circumstances
of the case of these men, and referring to the act relating to the
combination laws, "that the Dorchester labourers convicted of
illegal combinations in 1833 be pardoned and recalled."
Mr. IlusiE seconded the motion.
The house divided after a long debate. The numbers were—
For the motion.
Against it

Majority.. 226
Mr. F. MAucp. then moved for leave, according to his notice,
to bring in a "bill for relief of the tenants and occupiers of land
in ScoCand from the datnages.done to their crops by hares,
pheasants, and rabbits."
Admiral ADAM seconded the motion.

After a short discussion, in which Sir George Clerk, Mr. Jer-
vis, Mr. Howard, and Captain Wemyss spoke against the mo-
tion, and Mr. Curteis and Mr. Benett supported it, the house
divided on the question, when there appeared—
Ayes
Noes ~

50
76

Majority against the bill being brought in.. 26

STANDARD.

SOLTII SEA DUTIES.
Mr. YOUNG moved for leatk to bring in a bill to repeal cer-
tain clauses in the act 55 Geo. III.; c. 57, imposing duties on
tonnage and goods in thu trade with countries within the limits
of the exclusive privileges of the South sea Company.
Mr..P. THOMSON said that the government contemplated a
general measure, to include these duties, which had been hitherto
delayed owing to the difficulties of the subject. He hoped the
hon. member would withdraw his 'notion.
After a few words from Lord SANDON,
Mr. YOUNG withdrew hiS motion, on the understanding that
a'measure would be introduced next session.
Mr. HESEETH FLEETWOOD moved for the appointment of a
committee to .inquire into our consular establishments.—Or-
dered.

On the motion of Mr. BROTHERTON, the house adjourned a
a quarter to one o'clock.

HOUSE, OF COMMONS.-FRIDAY

. -
Mr. Ilesketh Fleetwood presented a petition from Preston
praying for a law to prevent drunkenness.
THAMES TUNNEL.
Mr. WALTER gave notice that, on the house going into a
committee of supply, he should move for copies of any docu-
ments under the authority of which £30,000 had been advanced
to the Thames tunnel company.
IPSWICH ELECTION.
Mr. P. M. STEWART called the attention of the house to the
case of Mr. Daseut, from whom a petition had been presented
on the preceding day. Mr. Dasent had been committed to
Newgate tinder the speaker's warrant. Mr. Stewart concluded
by moving that John Bary Dasent be called to the bar of the
house.

On this motion the house divided—ayes 190—noes 141—ma-
jority tar the motion 49.
Mr. HAWES then made a similar motion with respect to John
Pilgrim, another of the persons also in custody.
Sir George Clerk brought the case of Bond under the consi-
deration of the house, but the motion was withdrawn.
The SPEAKER having informed the house that Messrs. Dasent
and Pilgrim were its attendance, after some discusiion, the bar
was cleared, and the serjeant having taken the mace from the
table brought Messrs. Dasent and Pilgrim to the bar.
The SPEAKER said—" John Bury Dasent and John Pilgrim,
this house has decided that you have been guilty of the grave
offence of violating one of the most important, one of the most
valuable of its privileges. You have been guilty of absconding
for the purpose of withholding evidence which might have been
conducive to the furtherance of justice. It must be unneces-
sary for the information of any class of persons in this country
to enlarge on the importance of at all times yielding a prompt
and willing obedience to those privilegesashich this house holds
for the benefit of the people, and as their representatives. It
must least of all be necessary to enlarge on the nature of the
offence committed in the case of a gentleman whose professional
habits and avocations must have made him more peculiarly ac-
quainted with the nature ofthe obligations impoSed on all those
who are placed in circumstances to contribute to the furtherance
of public justice. You have, however, both of you made that
atonement which was in your power, by an expression orsor-•
row and contrition for the offence of. which you have been
guilty. This house has taken your petitions into its favourable
consideration, and dealS with you with all the mildness which a
sense of justice permits.' I have now to acquaint you that you
are discharged on payment of your fees."
Messrs. Dasent and Pilgrim then withdrew.
Lord J. litisSErs moved that,the reprimand be entered on
the journals. TITHES-IRELAND.
. Lord MoneETti, in rising to bring in his bill respecting
tithe's iu Ireland, bespoke the indulgent forbearance of the
house. After detailing at great length the operation of former
acts on this subject. the noble lord said, in conformity with the
provisions of the bill of last year, and of that which the late
government intended to have introduced this session, he pro-
posed to convert the existingcomposition into an annual rent
charge, payable, by the owners of the first estate of inheritance,
or such other equivalent estate as would be accurately defined
by the bill, equal to seven-tenths of the amount of composition,
or. £7O for every £lOO. The right hon. baronet, the late secre-
tary for Ireland, proposed that the amount of the rent charge
should be equal to three-fourths of the composition, or £75 for
ever £lOO. He (Lord Morpeth) need offer no apology to the
Irish landowner for the reduction which be proposed. By the
bill of last year the rentacharge was fixed at only three-fifths of
the composition; or £6O for every £100; but in addition to that
there was a settled change of 172 per cent. in the first instance
on the consolidated fund, and afterwards on the perpetuity pur-
chase fund, and that act also made no remission of the million.
It. was proposed to charge the cost of collection on all tithe
owners, because they would be relieved frotu all risk and trou-
ble. This charge would be 6d. in, the pound, which would leave
the sum of £6B ss. as the net income derivable from every £lOO
of composition. He had considered it advisable to make a dis-
tinction, not only between existing and future clerical incum-
bents, but also between clergymen and lay impropriators, inas-
much as the latter had no duties to perform, and had generally
other sources of income, whilst on the other hand the clergy-
men bad, or were assumed to have, duties to perform which were
above all others important, and he was afraid that in a great
many instances, from the circumstances of the last few years,
they had been reduced to a state of great privation and dis-
tress, not in most cases from any fault of their own, or by any
demerit of the body to which they belonged. ( Hear, hear.)
Indeed, be believed that the case was very much the reverse;
but their'unfortunate condition was the result of that just retri-
billion which sooner or later involved in the penalties of a per-
nicious system even the most unoffendiog victims.. (Hear,
hear.) Cie had'stated that he thought it advisable that a dif-
ference should be made between clergymen and the lay imps°.
priators, and therefore he proposed that the existing clerical in-
cumbent should receive £73 Bs. for every £lOO of composition.
The additional 5 per cent. in this case would be charged upon
the perpetuity purchase fund. This charge would he tempo-
rary, and not perpetual, as was proposed be the bill of last year,
and as he had stated amounted to only 5 per cent. instead of
171 per cent. And he was pleased to think that this view of
the subject received countenance from the statements made by
the right hon. and gallant gentleman opposite, for, as he under-
stood the speech' delivered by that right lion, gentleman on the
introduction of his tithe measure, he meant, in the case of any
loss accruing to the incumbents during the investment of the
redemption fund, to indemnify them to the amount of £75. The
machines), of the bill which he proposed to introduce was so
similar to the bill of last year, that he did not feel called on to
enter into any of the details respecting the real charges payable
to the-crew% and the-investments, which would be, played under
the management of the commissioners of land revenue. lie
believed that the right hon. and gallant gentleinan intended
that the clergy should recover from the head landlords, and that
if they did not receive their dues in proper time, the ecclesias-
tical commissioners should levy for them. Now, in his (Lord
Morpeth's) opinion, that was an arrangement calculated to in-
volve the ecclesiastical commissioners in altercations and dis-
putes to a far greater degree than was desirable. (Hear, bear.)
One of the provisions ht the bill which he proposed to introduce
would empower a revision and revaluation, under certain cases,
of benefices for the tithe composition. He should have very
much desired to avoid the necessity of providing for the revalua-
tion of henefices, but so many and such urgent propositions on
• the subject were made to the government, for the most part by
persons who wished well to the church, and backed in many
instances by strong corroborating circumstances, that it was
felt to be difficult, if not impossible, to make any settlement of
the tithe question, which was likely to be acceptable to the Irish
people,• unless some power of revision or revaluation were al-
lowed. Of course, proper precautions would be taken to con-
fine the inquiries to the matters really in dispute (which in
some instances were that promissory notes had been given by
insolvent parties, and in others that adjudications had been
made in the absence of interested parties;) and also to pre-
vent the power of revision being unnecessarily and caprici-
ously put into operation. It was likewise proposed to extend
the provisions of Lord Tenterden's act for the limitation of
suits to Ireland, in the same way as it was included in the bill
of last year. These were the principal enactments of the pro-
posed measure, as far as regarded the immediate settlement
of property in tithe, and the interests of existing incumbents.
With respect to the distribution of ecclesiastical resources the
noble lord said,—there now lay on the table of the house the
report of the commissioners of public instruction, who, iu .pur-
suance of the directions given them, had prepared a census of
the population of Ireland, specifying the proportion of the dif-
ferent religious sects. Now, he certainly could not pretend to
claim for that work, or for any work of such nature, especially
when concluded in so limited a period, the merit of perfect and
undeviating accuracy; but, as far as circumstances permitted,
the report of the commissioners was framed in such a manner as
made it as accurate and authentic as any document of such a
kind could pretend to be. The house would observe, that the
census of 1831 was taken as the basis of the present census.
The census of 1831 was not formed in any expectation of its
being used for the purpose of ascertaining the relative propor-
tions of the different religious denominations in Ireland, and it
was not, consequently, liable to to the imputation of partiality
in that respect. By the report on the table, which he contended
was entitled to be considered as authentic and accurate as. any
census of the nature could be, it appeared that the total popula-
tion of Ireland amounted to 7,943,940; or, in round numbers,
to 8.000,000 persons. Out of that number the members of the
established church amounted to 853,064, the presbyteriaus to
642,356, -and the other dissenters to 21,808 persons. The num
her of the Roman Catholics was 6,427,712 (hear, hear); in
other words, the members of the established church amounted
to 853,064 persons, and the number of those who dissented was
7,091,876. (Hear, hear.) The distribution of the members of
the
.established church was almost as disproportionate as their
total amount. It was well known that the greatest number was
to be found in the northern province of Ulster, and he would
mention one or two instances of that disproportion to which he •
Isadaulverttd—s.For.tbissnurnoae he should safes -to a work
some authority, " 13oether's Ecclesiastical Map of Ireland,"•'
and comparing the number of persons belonging to the esta-
blished church with the number of acres, he found that in the
diocese of Dromore there were. 264 members of the established
church for every 1,000 acres; in the diocese of 'foam only 8 to •
every 1,000 acres ; in the diocese of Clogher there were 26 to
every 1,000 acres; while in the diocese of Kilfenora there was
less than one. Now, how was it proposed to meet those glaring
instances of disproportion both in the total amount and the re-
lative distribution of the members of the established church ?
He should ask the house to give authority for the suspension of
the presentation or appointment to every benefice in Ireland
where the number of protestants did not exceed 50. But before
he went further, he might, perhaps, be asked whsther it was his
intention to leave, ,in all those parishes in whtch the number of
protestants did not exceed 50, the members of the established
church who might be found in them entirely without the means
of spiritual instruction or public worship ? He had never dis-
guised, either elsewhere or in that house, his own adherence to
the principle of au established religion, and therefore in intro-
ducing a measure for the regulation of the religious establish-
ment now in existence, and tu endeavouring to adapt it to the
state of society in which it was found, he would not shrink from
contemplating such a curtailment of its privileges, and diminu-
tion of its revenues, as seemed prescribed by a 'just consideration
of what was due to other parties, nor would he be scared from
the view by the cry of confiscation, spoliation, or sacrilege. His
Majesty's ministers did not profess to do more than comply with
the principle, which left no part of the state's dominions out of
the pale of the state's religion (which principle he was sorry to see
not carried into effect in all parts of Ireland, some of which did
not come within the provisions of the proposed bill,) but they
endeavoured to fix the amount of the provision of the clergy
strictly and scantily, as circumstances required, in proportion
to the extent of the duty performed. In the instance which he
had taken, of a parish without either church or churchman, the
cure of souls (which he believed to be a correct though contra-
dictory expression) would be committed to the care of a neigh-
bouring minister, appointed by the bishop of the diocese, at a
stipend of £5 a-year (loud and general laughter,) in which case
it was indulgently proposed to depart from the principle that
where there was no duty performed there should be no pay.
It was likewise proposed in the bill which he should move for
leave to introduce, that in the case Of a suspended parish in
which there was any number of members of the establishment
from 1 to 50, the ecclesiastical commissioners, to whom it was
thought that the superintendence of all these matters could be
most properly confided, should be empowered, subject to the ap-
probation and consent of the Lord-Lieutenant in council, either
to assign the cure of souls in that parish to the care of the neigh-
bouring minister, in like manner as was done where no pro-
testant was to be found in the parish, or else, should they think
that the spiritual Wants of the members of the established church
could not be adequately provided for by such assignment, to ap-
point a separate curate. H e would state what provision it wa

proposed to make to the clergymen so appointed. When the
cure r:f souls was committed to the care of a neighbouring mi-
nister, excepting the case before-meutioned of a parish without
a church, and without a single member of the establishment,
the ecclesiastical commissioners might, with the consent and
approbation of the Lord-Lieutenant in council, assign any
amount of stipend which they should consiaer adequate remu-
neration for the duties performed, which shall not be less than
£lO or more than £5O a-year. 'Where a separate curate was
appointed the salary allowed to him was not to exceed £75
a-year ; and if he chose to occupy the glebe-house and under-
took to keep it in repair, he was to be allowed to take possession
of it, together with so much of the glebe land es the ecclesiasti-
cal commissioners should think proper to grant him, provided
its amount did not exceed iu value £25. In every parish where
the cure of souls was committed to a neighbouring minister, and
where his own church was so situated as not to be calculated to
afford accommodation for the spiritual wants and public worship
of the members of the established church in the annexed parish;
and also in those parishes where a separate curate was appoint-
ed, provision was to be made for the erection of suitable places
of public worship fit to accommodate the probable number of
the different congregations, which were to be built at a cost not
exceeding £lOO, or rented at a cost not exceeding £l5 a-year,
(Laughter.) In making all these several provisions, the arch-
bishop of the province and the bishops of the dioceses were to be
associated with the ecclesiastical commissioners. Cases would
frequently occur where these suspended parishes formed part of
the unions. The commissioners would then be authorised to
dissolve the suspended parishes from the unions to which they
belonged, or, if they should think such a measure inexpedient,
they were to assign to the future incumbent such a Salary, in
consideration of that suspended benefice, as they. would have
assigned to a neighbouring minister, or to a separate.curate for
the cure of souls therein. It was also provided that henceforth
no unions should be made without due notice to the ecclesiasti-
cal commissioners. With respect to other parishes not coming
within the provisions before mentioned, if it should appear,
after deducting thirty per cent. from the existing tithe composi-
tion and the payment of the tax on ecclesiastical benefices, that
the income of any parish should exceed £3OO per annum, the
ecclesiastical commissioners would be required to report the cir-
cumstance, on the voidance of the benefice, to the Lord-
Lieutenant, who would he empowered to make such a reduction
as should seem to him fitting, taking for his guidance the report
of the commissioners as to the amount of the congregation and
the extent of the duty to be performed. The income was never,
however, to be reduced below £3OO a-year. In attempting the
settlement of the tithe question, he thought that the most scru-
pulous regard should be paid to all rights which partook of the
nature of private property, and therefore provision would be made
to indemnify the owners of lay advowsons and to charge that in-
demnification on the fund to be created from various sources,
and to which it was intended togive the name of the "Reserved
Fund." That fund, after paying the stipends of the neigh-
bouring ministers, or separate curates, the , erection or pro-
vision of places of public worship, would then, in\the spirit of
the resolution carried by his noble friend, be applicable to the
purposes of national education, and to the religious, and_ moral
instruction of the peopld of Ireland without distinction of reli-
gious persuasions. The government proposed a modification
and curtailment of the present ecclesiastical revenue of Ireland, •
which the state of the Irish church establishment, in their opi-
nion, admitted, and to appropriate a portion of it to the great
object of the moral and religious education of the general Irish
nation. (Hear, hear.) But, lest it should be thought that,
when he talked of parishes in Ireland where there was no pro-
testant population, they were bunting. up shadows and raising
an outcry where there was no ground-for it, he would call the
attention of those who were disposed to sneer at the stipend of
£5 proposed to be given to clergymen without duty, to a state-
ment of the number of parishes which would come under the
operation of the bill. He would read the general result of the
statement, as it applied to all Ireland. In the 26 dioceses of
Ireland, the number of parishes without any member of the es-
tablished church was no less, as appeared from a report on the
table, than 151. Of parishes containing less than 10 protestants,
194; less than 20, 128; less than 30,-133; less than 40, 107;
less than 50, 77; total number of parishes that would come un-
der the operation of the bill, 860 (hear, hear); and consequently
these parishes contained an overpowering number of other per-
suasions who were entitled to share in the benefits of a moral
and religious education, which a beneficent government ought
not to refuse to any of its subjects. (Hear.) He had also bad
a computation made of the amount of the property which would
be derived under the provisions he had mentioned, when the
bill came into full operation, from the suspended benefices, not
including the reduction of benefices exceeding £3OO a-year,
because it was'difficult to arrive at this computation; and he
had not made any computation of the value of the glebe houses
or glebe lands. Without going through the dioceses, he might
say, that after deducting 30 per cent. for the tithe composition,
there would accrue from the suspended benefices, in parishes
within royal or ecclesiastical patronage, £47,898. He . had
computed the salaries of the curates at £65 each; and after the
existing interests were provided fro., there would accrue to the
reserved fund £47,898, to which when was added, on account of
indemnified patronage, £l,OlB, the whole would amount to
£58,876.. In a case like this, the bare enumeration of the num-
ber of parishes where there were no protestants, and the reek-
oning•by tens, and twenties, and thirties, and the statement of
funds provided for those who bad no duty to perform, did more
than auy declamation could do, for no contradiction could be
brought to bear upon such argument.. The bill contained fur-
ther some clauses for the purpose of amending and filling up
and extending certain provisions of the church temporalities
bill; it was not necessary for him to enter into the details of
these clauses, they were in the spirit of that bill.—They trans-
ferred the duties of the minor canons and chanters to the vicars-
choral, they vested in the ecclesiastical commissioners certain
powers respecting deaneries, and gave to tenants of bishops the
privilege of securing their payments fora limited period, instead
of paving immediately. He declared from his conscience, that
if he thought the measure calculated to operate against the in-
terests of real religion, no one would more rejoice than he should
at its failure, and no one not confident of its success would ven-
ture to move, as he now did, that leave be given to. bring in a
bill for the better regulation of ecclesiastical revenues, and for
the moral and religious education of the people of Ireland.
(Loud and prolonged cheering.) Some questions were put to
the noble lord by several members of the house. Among them
Sir Henry Hardinge put a hypothetical case. Stippese a pa-
rish.contained 55 protestants, and by means of emigration, cho-
lera, death, or assassination, that number should be reduced to
49; was this parish under the system of the act to be suspended?
Lord AlotieETri said that-the- measure woo/a operate on ttmse
parishes in which, according to the report on the table, the
number of protestants did not exceed 50. Our limits preclude
us from giving the speeches of Sir Robert Peel, Lord Stanley,
and Lord John Russell.
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
In answer to a question put by Colonel Perceval;
Lord J. RUSSELL said the second reading would not. take
place till after the corporation bill had gone through committee.
The other orders of the day Were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at a quarter to two o'clock