The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1843-02-17 00:00:00

Income-tax

PREVENTION OF FIRES-PROPOSED PARLIAMENTA,
Sir Taos. BRANCKER said this special council had
summoned at the request of the Special Committee on Fl,
not for the purpose of giving any detail of their
proceeding.
but because, if they were to go to parliament at all this ses-
sion, it was necessary they should present their petition to
the House of Commons in a very few days. The committee
a
had drawn up a Telm in general terms, merely calling upon
the council to give them authority to take the initiatory step
of introducing a bill, for it to be read the first time. The
bill would afterwards be laid before the council; and at pre-
sent he did not know that more than five minutes n-
taken in reading the committee's report, and in determn, What step to take. He would conclude by saying that the
committee did not call upon the council to pledge themselves
to the proposed measure, or to incur any serious expense.
Mr. HORNBY inquired whether the committee had any pro-
ceedings to produce? if they had, it would be desirable for
them to be read before the intended bill was brought for-
ward.
Sir Tilos. BRANCKER, in reply, said that the proceedings
of the committee consisted mainly of communications with
Mr. Bold, Mr. Stewart, and others, from whom they had
received reports which would in due time be laid before the
council. The present, however, was merely an initiatory
which, if the council went at all to parliament, must be
done immediately, or the session would be lost altogether.
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK then read the report of the
special committee, of which the following is a copy :

"The Committee appointed " REPORT.
o the sth Octber, 1842, to inquire into the most efficacious measures against fires, and
also the best means of arresting the progress of any fire
Which may hereafter unfortunately break out, have agreed
upon the following report—.
That the Commissioners for the better Paving and
Sewerage of the town have, in consequence of communica-
tions with this committee, determined upon going to parlia-
ment, in the present session, for a bill, to enable them by
contracts with proper parties, and if necessary, from the
river, to provide water for the watering of the streets, in re-
servoirs and mains, which supply would be constant, and
Friable them upon reasonable terms to afford water at the
instant from such mains in every part of the town, and im-
mediately as the urgency might arise, for the important
object already stated.
recommend to the Council to go along with the bill of the
ec°onmtn'raicstsin or ers to parliament, for powers by another bill, to
material such supply of water, (which will not to any
police rate extent increase the expense now charged upon the
streets ,) and to regulate the position' as
8 to the width of
vare,
hous es h and the better construction and management of
vent
ereafter to be erected in the town, so as to pre-
the recurrence of loss of life and property, which, of late
years, have so frequently visited this town, and as far as may
be reasonable, and deemed by the Council practicable, to
N'Ply a part of erectedgulations and management to ware-
houses already
That these Powers are proposed by the committee, to be
inserted in a bill, which, as soon as printed, should be circu-
lated amongst the Council and laid before the public, in
order that it may receive every possible consideration and
suggestion prior to any material expense being incurred.
" That, until this shall be effected,
icoro d. t which will require the
e e devotion of considerable time on the part of the
committee and their legal assistants, the committee desire
from the Council permission to proceed to the printing of the
bill, and to the extent of its being read a first time ; the se-
cond reading standing over until the measure shall have had
that consideration which the committee are anxious for, not
only from the Council but from the public."
Mr. PLATT understood that some time ago an offer had
been made to the council by the canal company of the spare
water of the canal, if a reservoir was constructed. He
wished to ask whether that proposition had been carried
into effect ?
Mr. THORNHILL replied that no such offer had ever been
made. He (Mr. Thornhill) was upon a deputation which
waited upon a number of the proprietors of the canal, but
they had made no such offer.
Mr. PLATT.—I think you recommended it ?
Mr. THORNHILL.—It was mentioned in the town, but not
carried into effect. They would give us the overflow, and
nothing more; but that could not be depended upon.
Sir Triostas BRANCRER observed that this was a point
for the consideration of the highway-board. All the com-
mittee wished, at present, was, to have power to get the bill
read a first time, and afterwards, the council might proceed
with it or not, just as they saw fit.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE really thought the committee
ought to give the council something more to guide them-
selves than the meagre report which they had just heard, for
he did not see how they could possibly form any opinion at
all with such a report. The committee asked permission to
go to parliament, which was a very serious step, involving
considerable expense, yet they did not tell the council
whether it was for the prevention of fires or to extinguish
them when once they began.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKER.—For both.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE, resuming, said that was a reason
why the committee should give the council something more in
detail the nature of their proposition. The only thing that he
gathered from the report was, that there were to be two acts
of parliament, both for the same object ; the highway-board
were to have one act and the corporation another. He
thought they should be ridiculed and laughed at in London
if they said there that such a thing was necessary. It was
rather absurd, indeed, that one body should sweep the streets
and another pave them •, but, really, to say that two acts of
parliament were required for the one purpose proposed, all the
expense of which would have to be borne by the town, was,
certainly very hard. Added to that he should be desirous to
keep out of parliament this year. The people of London
were quite tired of them (laughter), and be sever met a
member of parliament in London bet he was asked by him,
" Well, how many bills have you holt Liverpool this
session ? " (Hear, hear.) At the same time, he was deeply
interested in this question, Mr be was a ftareltortse owner,
and one who had sufereel materially in purse by the recent
conflagrations, inasmuch as he belonged to the Fire Insu-
rance Company of Liverpool. Eesides, be thought it a dis-
grace to the town to have such disasters in 'it its those which
had occurred ; but, at the same time, he was -sot one of
those who liked to rush into matters precipitately ; and if
the Fire-Committee were not prepared with something more
definite than they had yet seen, he hoped the council would
Pause before giving their permission to proceed one step.
The MAYOR suggested, that Sir Thomas Brancker might
be able to give the council some information upon the heads
of the intended bill. The present did not appear a desirable
period to enter into details ; but if the heads were furnished,
they might materially assist the discussion.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKER replied, that the object of the
committee was to provide for the making of all new ware-
houses, as far as possible, tire-proof. As regarded the exist-
ing warehouses, the committee proposed to do what was pos-
sible in order to render them more secure from file than they
were at present ; and the reason why the bnsiness was divided
into two parts was, that when the committee came to confer
with the Commissioners of Highways, they Mend they had
strong objections to any party meddling- with the streets except
themselves. It was originally intended that all should be
comprised in one bill, if they went to parliament at all, but the
objections started were so strong that it was considered best
to give the Highway Board the entire management of the
water part of the business; and the Fire Committee had un-
dertaken to go to parliament for powers for the prevention of
fires.

Mr. KILSHAW.—That is, provided the council agrees.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKER.—Yes ; provided the council
agreed. The committee could not undertake the other part,
because it was not in their province.
Mr. ASPINALL, as one of the members of the Highway
Beard, reserved to himself the right of opposing this hill.
Two bills were to be framed, neither of which were
Yet commenced. Next Friday week was the last day
oil which they could be presented ; and, therefore, he
°PPosed the proposition, because it was too hasty. Ne op-
Posed it, too, upon another and a very serioas ground,
namely, that the Highway Board had pledged themselves to
a rate of one penny in the pound before they had called a
meeting of the inhabitants to know whether they would
sanction it. He (Mr. Aspinall) contended, that before
Pledging themselves to an additional rate of one penny, such
a proceeding should have been sanctioned by a meeting of
the inhabitants ; and, on these grounds, he opposed the
report.
;rMr. Alderman Nicol. thought some misunderstanding was
evelling : gentlemen were confounding the bill which the
ire Committee proposed to apply for, with that of the High-
way Board; but he apprehended that the sanctiog of the
council was not necessary to that of the Highway Board?
The TOWN-CLERIC—Not at all.
Mr. Alderman NicoL.—The council, then, having nothing
to do with the bill of the Hieliv.,ay Board, it was not that bill
for which the committee applied for the sanction of the
council; but it was for a bill intended to regulate the con-
!truction of new warehouses, to regulate the width of streets
in which the were built, and, as far as they could, to improve
thel they
ngywarehonses ; the details of which, he appre-
I ended would be of some length, and would detain the
council too long even to be then read. The truth, however,
as, the Town-clerk had been so much occupied with other
things that the bill was not at present prepared ; but, re-
specting that, he could inform the council better than he
(Mr. Alderman Nicol) could. At all events, with the bill of
the Highway Board the council had nothing to do.
1t
~ all% BIRKETT thought it desirable to remind the council
September
how this matter was
placed. In the latter end of
or the beginning of Oce on of the
ficouncil was drawn to the subjecttoberby an awfullyattenti calamitous
re; they were memorialized by all the associated bodies •,
nd a be done ver universal feeling prevailed that something should
by them. A 'w special committee was appointed, of
, hioh •he Was a member ; and up to last week he always en-
tertained the opinion that it was not desirable to go to par-
liament this year. In expressing that opinion, however, he
as say he felt himself in an awkward position, inasmuch
,' It; might be thought that, being a very heavy rate-payer,
he was desirous of shielding himself from expense; but when
thcame to consider the situation the town was placed in by
:'ti.!great fire, and that during the time the committee were
:T_t.oag another great fire had taken place, as Mr. Holme could
ito, owing, in a great degree, to the want of those precau-
'cos which he trusted were about to be taken, lie was forced
!L(1) acknowledge it was desirable they should attempt, at least,
I,,Fibtain the bill this year. With regard to there being two
'Nils, the council were aware that the Commissioners of
eweghways had the power to repair the highways and to water
streets ; and in the last session they obtained a bill
Powerinn. them to lay a rate of one halfpenny in the pound
in order to have the streets watered. It was now proposed
that that bill should be done away with, and in lieu of it,
that a rate of one penny in the pound should be laid, for h two objects of watering the
ad supplying
Water for the prevention of fires. The committee
streets generally andh
unani-
mously come to the conclusion, from the evidencedce before
them, (and they bad had no contradictory evidence,) enake,
aothing vvould ever prevent fires, when they did t
a place,source
from extending as they had done, unless there wa
"Pon which at all times dependence could be lasced fur a
supply of water. It was quite impossible ;
ever there
xperience of the last 20 years had shown that w ienwas
not a
and,llindeed, the
"ad been a great fire it was simply because there
buPply of water. It was, therefore, in order to
fires as
wellthis
necessary supply of water, for the prevention of fi
Board, not
as the watering of the streets, that the Highway
"Pon their owit Inotion, but having
Pi
the subject ,
re Cornseittee of the conncil, had taken
been movedto it by. the.
and they intended to apply_ to
a surri of parliament foruppoewrieurrtiowsreai.seef
, . mimey not exceeding, £30,000 for th
Purcuasing tanks and laying mains. To repay
the pound. They
Proposed to lay a rate of one penny inthis sum they
,
would have called the inhabitants together and
they must be
nd taken their
Phinion thereon but for the circumstance
that
b.efore parliament next Friday week,
o
line for it. Their resolution was to go
s toparliament that there was no
t
same way as the council, and to place the bills
between the first and second readings, in the
thei nabeyance
between opinion
until of
the inhabitants had been obtained
whethertheywouledst thanee-
tion them. If the council would not go to parliament
,
commissioners would not go ; but the council must bear in
mind, that in taking the initiatory step,only
a limited amount
of expense was incurred. and If they now re
fused to do :ivy
thing—____

Mr. G. 14. LAWRENCE.—I never said the council should
refuse; I only asked for more information.
Mr. BIRKETT, in continuation, said, if the council now
refused to authorise the committee to apply for this bill, the
present session would be lost. The committee asked only
for leave to go to the first reading, and then the bill would be
submitted to the council; no person would be now pledged to
the details, for the whole measure would afterwards be subjeot
to consideration. But, as be said before, if they refused their
consent now, there would be no time, because if t
not in parliament by next Friday week with the hill, aion&
with the petition, they could not go for it this session. lie,
therefore, for one, would not take the responsibility of saying
that to the town; but he would take any means to prevent
that which, it had been proved by evidence before the com-
mittee, had caused a loss to the town of no less than one
million and a half of money in the last ten years. (Hear.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE thought he had heard the chairman
of the Finance Committee (Mr. G. H. Lawrence) say he
would not give any authority whatever to the committee, not
even to give the parliamentary notice ; whilst it had repeatedly
been stated that if they did not do it now, the hill would be
lost entirely for the present session. He thought gentlemen
would be incurring great responsibility by so refusing, seeing
the calamitous fires we had lately had ; and as measures had
been brought forward for the prevention of similar fires, and
for the extinguishing them if they occurred, the council
ought certainly to be in a condition to have the bill brought
in, at any rate to see what it was. He presumed there would
be no great expense in that?

ley were

The-TowN:CLERK.—There are no fees payable upon the
first reading.

Mr. Alderman EAltLE.—Then there was the more reason
why they should go on. He would remark, after what they
had heard to-day, that it would be a very sensible thing to
bring in a bill, for placing the paving of the streets in the
council, instead of there being two separate bodies. That
would be good common sense. They had heard enough to-
day to see what an absurdity it was to have two bodies work-
ing in that way, and the Town-clerk would tell the council
so, too ; and, moreover, if they were separated the streets
would be better paved. (Hear, hear.) _

Mr. PROCTER wished for a little snore information from
Sir Thomas Brancker. He had said that it was intended to
give the Highway Board the whole control of the water?
Sir Thos. BRAN CKER.—Yes ; they have the control of
the pipes.
Mr. PROCTER replied that the Watch Committee would
not be satisfied with that.

Mr. Alderman EARLE feared that, with the Watch Com-
mittee against it, the public would suffer.
Mr. HODGSON said, the fact of the committee having
had so many points to settle had made it difficult for them
come to a conclusion so as to enable them to offer the

d,tails of the measure to the council in time for the present
session. It was only just now that they had been able to
arrange the parts which each body should take; and though
it might not be thought that one body should take the paving
of the streets as well as the management of the water, yet if
that was opened as a matter of conflict now, it was clear the
council would not be able to obtain the remedy which they
sought. The question was, whether the council were prepared
to take upon themselves the responsibility—merely for the
purpose of delay, and for getting information which, after all,
was distinctly promised before the second reading of the bill
—of throwing aside the whole of the scheme for another year.
They would not only expose themselves to the unfavourable
comment which circumstances that might possibly arise
would justly bring down upon them; but did they not know
that the feeling now abroad, which would enable them to
accomplish this which was so desirable, might cool, and that
they might find next year that they could not get on? The
arrangement was now made, and if they tried to upset it by
voting (for it was clear there must be a vote), the object
would be upset; and the object was so great, that he was
not afraid of its being carried with the utmost harmony. As
soon as the bill had passed the first reading, all the details
would be made the subject of discussion, just as if it had
never been undertaken ; and the expense, he believed, was
so trifling, that they would all be ashamed of making that a
subject of discussion, even for the purpose of delay.
Mr. PARSER contended that more information was re-
quired before proceeding to a decision. It was true un-
doubtedly that there had been communications between the
Fire Committee and the Highway Board, but no plan had
yet been laid down to enable the council to judge of the
merits of the bill ; and he was of opinion that before going
to parliament at all every detail should be produced. From
the information of a practical man, he begged to say that the
fire in Crompton-street could not have been better managed
than it was ; and as to that in Greenland-street, it was a po-
sitive fact that the more water there was thrown upon it the
more it blazed. (Laughter.)

Mr. PLATT said, so tar from that being the case, no water
could be got there for more than half an hour after the fire
was discovered. (Hear.) _ _

Mr. PARKER was satisfied that all the acts of parliament
in the world would never remedy the evil. Besides, when-
ever they went to parliament, the burden fell upon the
inhabitants. It was for the benefit of the mercantile com-
munity only that the inhabitants were called upon to pay.
(Cries of " No, no.") Then they were asked, " What would
Liverpool be without her merchants ?" True, but what
would the town be without a population ? It would be an
empty shell! (Loud laughter.) This was a question be-
tween the insurance companies and the mercantile interests—
(no, no)—not between the ratepayers and the merchants ;
whilst all the burden would fall upon the ratepayers ; and
seeing that there was so little information on th• details, he
hoped the council would agree to postpone it another year.
He was perfectly willing to bear his share of the responsi-
bility of delay.

Mr. Alderman Nicol-, suggested that the Town-clerk
should give the council a general idea of the bill. It would
save time, and prevent gentlemen from having the trouble of
making speeches. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PLATT, as a heavy sufferer by the late fire i❑ Green-
land-street, begged to say it was very evident to him that
Mr. Parker knew nothing about the matter. (Laughter.)
Had there been a supply of water at the time the tire was
discovered, it might have been readily extinguished ; but
there was none till three-quarters of an hour afterwards, and
under such circumstances anybody who knew the combustible
nature of the materials would not wonder at the conflagration
being so serious.

Mr. PARKER.--I only say that Mr. Whitty tried the ex-
periment, and the more water he threw on the flames the
more they burned ! (Laughter.)
The MAyort.—That seems extraordinary doctrine. If it
is so, that is one reason why we should have no bill at all ;
or water either, if that principle be correct ! (Renewed
laughter.)
Mr. S. HOLME.—I hope it does not apply to malt! (Con-
tinued laughter.)
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—It's a new discovery, Mr. Mayor.
Mr. PARKER..--It is based upon science, sir.
The TONOV-CLERK said, he should be glad to give the
Council any information in his power • and he would begin
by stating that he had never, in his life, met with any bill
which seemed so full of difficulty as the present. It was a
bill in which they could not be materially assisted by counsel,
for it was a bill as to which every provision must be framed
by the hand of men who had some practical information, as
well as some legal knowledge, to satisfy an act of Parliament.
He despaired of much advantage from the assistance of coun-
sel, any further than testing what he did himself, and in see-
ing whether the bill would stand the objections of opposing
counsel. He considered it a bill of the greatest importance
to the town of Liverpool, and he was satisfied that though
the bill might be prepared, and go on this session (which was
not at all to be despaired of), that the best thing they could
do for the town would be to proceed at once to the first read-
ing, even if it were ultimately to stand over to another session.
He did not, however, think that would be the result ; but if
there should be a prospect before them of its standing over
he would say, " proceed at once to the presenting of the bill,
for I consider that every clause to be put in that bill must be
tested by being put into a printed shape before it would be
at all likely to answer the purpose." With regard to the de-
tails of the bill it would be very easy to state them ; but it
was extremely difficult indeed to put those details into legal
language. In the first place he would draw the attention of
the Council, before he stated the heads of the bill, to this
fact, that they had before them a most desirable point gained
in the disposition upon the part of the Commissioners
of Paving and Sewering to go to Parliament for an act
to enable them to supply the town with water in every
part—not by reservoirs here and there, but by mains, by
which water would be furnished wherever it was wanted,
and at all times and under all circumstances, as was fully ex-
plained in the report before the Council. Here he must be
allowed to mention, that it was not any part of the plan of
the Commissioners for Paving and Sewering, as be under-
stood it, to interfere, in the slightest degree, with the powers
of the Watch Committee, or those of the Fire Police Com-
mittee; they were, in fact, only to supply the water to be
used by the Fire Police Committee just as the Fire Police
Committee would use the water at present : they would exer-
cise no control over the water beyond the placing of it in the
mains in all parts of the town wherever it could be wanted,
and then the Fire Police Committee would exercise their
power upon the materials so provided for them. As to
the general details of the bill, he would say, in the first place,
it had been his desire to begin with placing the execution of
the bill ander the regulation of a committee of the council,
just as any other branch of the duties of the council. Then,
it was easy to enact very useful things as to the new
warehouses. Now, as to new warehouses, there could be no
objection to enact that they should be built with iron doors I
and iron shutters ; and he thought it must turn out, upon
consideration, but only after the most serious consideration,
that this provision ought to be made to apply to the existing
warehouses. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Birkett.) Then,
there was one most useful provision, which he would state
upon the authority of a gentleman of great practical experi-
ence in the town, that it would be a great protection to ware-
houses if there was, between the roof of one warehouse and
the roof of another, either parapet walls or a wall to prevent
the communication of fire, serving also as a protection to
persons who might be upon the warehouse not upon fire
when repelling the flames from that which was burning.
Mr. G. 111.-LAWRENCE.—That is for future warehouses?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Yes ; for future warehouses. With
the protection of iron doors and shutters, to a great extent,
the existing warehouses would remain in their natural con-
struction. In the next place, lie apprehended there would be
no great difficulty in enacting that, in future, no warehouse
for the deposit of goods should be built without a space of
sixteen yards in froth of it, whether it consisted of a street,
square, er court; and again, there should be a passage
within any new warehouse, which, for every one hundred
yards, at least, should be ten yards wide. When he stated
100, the number 100 was used by him more as an illustration
than anything else, because it might be fixed at fifty yards,
or two hundred yards, just as the committee thought
proper. Again, if there should be any communication
with that passage, so as to admit assistance to arrive to
put down a fire there, it should be by means of a passage
covered in that way so as to be fireproof. For instance, if it
should be determined by the merchants of this town, as he
understood was not at all unlikely, to build warehouses in
squares or courts, they would take care that any communi-
cation from the streets into that square or court should be by
a passage so constructed as to protect the fire-police when
going info the particular square or court. Then, again, it
would be for consideration—but only for consideration until
they saw how far they could put the provision into legal
shape—how far they could overcome the legal difficulties ;in
fact, so soon as they could make the object intelligible, not
so much in legal language, but so that practical men could
understand
ri ts,
afnodr
ot ht
be
eyr Isi and,
ot
udseta
kl owt
whatwit the lawyers
eoanni ty
—so
able
s ot
ots
oo
fireproofos nu
b, liei r
tsaid,o h asre
e council
uss
ecsicould
in
n thebwe
printdone,h ch
0 certain
fi tt hwe obu
gdl
op
obr
deo
sv s
oe sof i
nr
as-
i
dangerous nature should he warehoused, and to which ware-
houses those goods should be restricted. There was another
suggestion, and one of great importance, that instead of
legislating as to the distance between dangerous trades
and the warehouses which contained the wealth of the
merchants of the town, that the difficulty should be at once
disposed of, by enacting that places in which a dangerous
trade was carried on should have all the various flues
combined into ene, ana go into a chimney which
sliotld carry them up tb-a height of at least sixty or seventy
feet above the ground. 'Pisis seethed to him, when it was
mentioned t• him, as a very large demand to make upon
those trades ; but he was quite astounded to find, from the
information of gentlemen of the greatest practical experience,
that t chimney of that kind would not cost more than £7O.
(Hear, hear.) Another part which had bad anxious consi-
deration on the part of the committee was this, that in order
to make some compensation for the necessary expense which
would be thrown upon the new warehouses, there should be
a register provided, in which every warehouse built under the
act should be registered, and which register should be pub-
lished under the direction of the council ; and any existing
warehouse, if the owners thought proper to submit to the
regulations applying to new warehouses, should have afforded
to them the bounty of being admitted into that register.
cliffinuiry indeed
There was another subject, and sue of great

..namely, whether the powers to regulate porters in ware-
houses could not be materially improved ; whether it was
possible to have gangs of men under the direction of ware-
house owners, and to elevate some of those porters into the
rank of foremen, who should be made the parties to com-
mand those gangs. It would also he for consideration,
whether, considering the great extent of loss of life, as well
as of property, in this town, it would not be deemed by thy•
legislature essential to enact, that any wilful act or negligent
omission upo❑ the part of porters and others employed in

warehouses, whereby property might be in danger from tire.
ought not to be deemed a misdemeanour, and, if proved, be
punished either by temporary confinement or the payment of
a penalty; whether, in short, they should not be regularly
indicted, and, if proved guilty, be punished by fine and im-
prisonment, or either of them. Such were the considera-
tions ; and he would only say himself, that if this bill were to
go on in another session, and not in the present.session, still
the best course would be to get it printed for the present
session. At the same time, he did not at all despair of the
bill being brought forward in the present session, if the
council so pleased kbut, in either case, the bill, being printed,
must stand the test of the most rigorous examination by
every interest concerned; and every man who had anything
to assert against it ought to be fairly and quietly heard, what-
ever his rank of life might be; for he certainly thought, that
unless it stood all these tests it would only be an act of par-
liament which, in another session, would have to be re-
pealed.
Mr. G. 11. LAWRENCE asked if there was any arrange-
ment between the Paving Board and the council, that if the
bill of the council failed theirs should be withdrawn also ?
Mr. JOHN Homurs replied that the Paving Board were
going on with their bill merely at the suggestion of the com-
mittee. The Highway Board thought, at one time, it would
would be much better to postpone both bills till the next
session ; and he thought from what the Town-Clerk had
just said, that that would be the best step yet.
The Town-Clerk had not said that postponement would be
the best step. He thought the bill should be proceeded with
as far as the first reading, this session even if they could mot
go en till next session.

✓ Mr. BIRKETT observed that that was precisely his reason
for voting in the committee for recommending the council to
apply to parliament this session, upon the distinct under-
standing that both bills should be submitted to the inhabit-
ants previous to the second reading, when no great expense
had been incurred.

Mr. PLATT presumed that the Town-Clerk was aware that
there was ati act of parliament against dangerous trades
passed forty years ago,—for instance, his own trade (Mr.
Platt's)—being carried on unless at a certain distance from
any other building.
The TOWN-CLERK was perfectly aware of that act, but i❑
going before Lord Shaftesbury they had found it difficult to
convince Thin of the policy of those restrictions.

Mr. H ODGSON thought it most important to make a com-
mencement in this matter, because the council would then be
committed ; but if they postponed it till another session a
great many intervening circumstances might occur to put it
aside. If they commenced now they would go on.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES referred to the plan which Mr.
Adcock (whom he spoke of as one of the most scientific in-
dividuals existing) had desired to lay before the council, and
expressed his opinion, that if the gentlemen named had
communicated with Mr. Adcock, his plan would have been
adopted and proved successful, so perfectly simple and so
effectual was it.

Mr. Alderman BRAMLEY-MOORE said, that after the ob-
servations which had fallen from the chairman of the Finance
Committee, he was rather disposed to acquiesce in the post-
ponement of the bill ; but having since listened to the exposi-
tion of the Town-clerk, he confessed that he saw strong
grounds why the council should proceed immediately. In
the first place, the council were informed that, until the first
reading of the bill, no expense i❑ fees would be incurred—
Mr. ASPINALL —Yes ; about £3OO.

Mr. BRAMLEY-MOORE.—And consequently, as it would
advance the business, he would say, " let the bill be printed,
and let the inhabitants be put in possession of it as well as
the council." it was from the town that the council must
hear objections and receive instructions in this matter.
(Hear.) It was clear that there were a great many conflict-
ing interests involved, and before going to parliament it was
only proper that they should be in a position to judge of the
details. To judge of them now would be exceedingly pre-
mature; it would be taking too hasty a step, because none
were competent to form an opinion from hearing the report
read, nor would they be in that position till the bill had been
printed and placed in their hands. The argument that they
would be throwing away a large sum of money, therefore,
fell to the ground. With regard to what Mr. Parker had
said, as to this being a question between the merchants
and the insurance companies, he (Mr. Moore) held a totally
different opinion, because every body knew that occasionally
a fire was a desirable thing for an insurance company, and a
great good. They might lately have been too frequent for
them ; but the insurance companies had all lately raised their
premiums 50 or 60 per cent., which was a great consideration
not only to the merchants but to the inhabitants, because if
property was destroyed and insurance was raised, it was clear
that you enhanced the value of the property that was left.
With regard to the bill involving a rate, the town would
speak its sentiments upon that subject when the bill was
before the inhabitants ; in the meantime, it was not for the
council to consider whether they would incur any obligation
by the measure, whether it would increase the rate id. or
Id., or whether there was no rate at all; but they ought to
be guided by what was consistent with the general interests
of the town. If they were to consult every individual whe-
ther he would pay 6d. or Id., be might object to both, be-
cause he might not be in the district where fires occurred ;
but nevertheless he was boend to contribute his proportion
towards the general benefit of the community. The consi-
deration of a rate, therefore, ought not for one moment to
weigh with the council, seeing that it was yet necessary to
take steps to putthemselves in a position to judge what would
be the best and most advisable measure for the general
benefit.

Mr. THORNHILL understood that the bill to be applied
for was for the regulation of warehouses and that of the
Highway Board for providing a supply of water, for which
they were to lay a rate. He should object to its being called
a fire-police rate, because that rate was quite sufficient for
the purposes to which it was devoted; it was one halfpenny
in the pound, and they had now a balance of £2,500 in hand
beyond their expenses.

The TOWN-CLERK, in reply, said, the calculation was that
the money to be required by the Paving Board for supplying
water to the Fire Police Committee would not exceed the pre-
sent amount which the fire police now sustained, or if it did
it would be only to a very trifling extent. There was one
point which he had not yet mentioned, and it was this,—it
was proposed by the committee, (at least it was under con-
sideration,) that there should be $ clause in the bill author-
izing the chief magistrate of the town to direct the demolition
of any building which it might be expedient to remove, with
a view of putting a stop to fire. In cases of that kind it had
been conceived reasonable and proper that the public should
bear the expense of such proceeding, and upon that account
it might be necessary, upder the direction of the committee,
to propse that a small addition of one halfpenny should by,
made to the rate.

Mr. THORN HILL asked who was to collect that rate?
The TOWN -CLERK.—The Fire Police Committee.
•
Mr. THORN HI LL•—I should object to that,
The TOWN -CLERK said, that the rate for the better water-
ing of the town would be a rate which must rest entirely with
the Paving and Sewerage Commissioners ; but whether the
committee might finally determine to. recommend any addi-
tion to the rate would depend upon further consideration, and
of course any recommendation would be subject to the con-
firmation of the Council.

Mr. THOMPSON.—What is the objection to going for a
joint bill?

The TOWN-CLERK, in reply, said the proposition in the
outset was to go for a joint bill, but they had been recom-
mended by the parliamentary agents, upon excellent grounds,
to prefer the course of going for two bills, because what was
called " multifariousness" in proceedings at law, was by no
means approved of by the taste of the present day in parlia-
ment. If his course as Town-Clerk were to come over again,
he thought there was no part of it he would avoid so much
as the mixing up of different subjects in one bill. In the
case of providing water that belonged to the Paving board,
because they had the control of the pavement—they were
the proprietors of the pavement--they were the parties to
break it up, and they could, with their *wit consent, lay the
requisite mains for the purpose of Applying water ; and so
long as they were not united with the council, it was far
better it should be so. le mast say, too, that he had gene•
rally found that mixing up different subjects in one
bill, had caused eventually greater expense than if several
bills had been introduced fpr the purpose.
Mr. JOHN 110LMES.—We gave a joint notice with the
council of oar ielentioa to apply to parliament.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKEE. here moved that the report of
the Fire Committee be adopted.
The TOWN-CLERK said the Deputy Town-Clerk bad re-
minded him that there was to saving in fees in parliament
on a joint bill, for when it was found out that two parties
had joined in a bill,•both were made to pay the fees. In that
case there were two fees paid.
Mr. Alderman EARLS.—They rob them both then.

The TOWN-CLERK.—They rob them both ; and for the
information of the Alderman who spoke last, I may mention,
that when they find they have a corporation to rob, they
make that corporation pay doable fees.

. .
Mr. Alderman Nicol, seconded the motion proposed by
Sir Thomas Brancker.

Mr. EVANS said it had been asserted that the bill was for
the benefit of the town, but he would say that the expense in
favour of a particular description of property ought to fall
upon that property ; but it had bee■ hustled off that pro-
perty o❑ to all other property. It was intended to have the
law made prospective as regarded all sew warehouses. He
would appeal to Mr. Holum if there were not as many ware-
houses now building as would answer all die purposes of the
town for two years to come ? At all events then they had two
years before them, for they could not interfere with the ware-
houses already in course of erection. It was useless to talk
of iron doors and windows to the existing warehouses, unless
they could change the stairs. Then 'Was the cause of all the
evil. All kinds of windows, it was well ksown, were more
likely to be left open time shut. He looked upon this as an
attempt to bolster up the old warehoast system is Liverpool.
It appeared they were going to lay a penny is the pound on
the whole property of the town, and all As benefit that the
inhabitants at large would have in return, would be an in-
creased facility in watering the streets. There was not the
slightest necessity for haste in tke business. He repeated
that anything they could do for the old warehouses would be
useless, unless they could so alter the stairs as to give easy
access to the uppermost stories. Again, it their interference
with the porters, they were proposing unjustifiable measures
for bolstering up a bad system. To say, if a man were guilty
of carelessness that he should be liable to a punishment little
short of felony, was most extraordinary. hle could not be-
lieve that a monopoly of labour would be continued, even if
enacted.

Mr. SAMUEL HOLME, who spoke under the oppression of
a severe cold and hoarseness, thought it would be admitted
that the calamitous fires that had occurred in this town du-
ring the last few years, and which had involved the destruc-
tion of property to the extent of nearly one million and a
half within the last ten years, thus causing an annusl loss
of something like £150,000 upon the average, was a state of
things which loudly called for a remedy. When he added to
that the destruction of the furniture of the poor, and the
alarm incidental to a great conflagration in a large town ;
when he called to mind the appalling spectacles which he
had himself frequently witnessed with the deepest pain, of
the mutilated fragments of some of his fellow creatures car-
ried out from under the burning ruins ; those who considered
these matters would cordially agree with him that it was a
state of things which required immediate and instant remedy.
He begged to say, further, that these calamitous results
needed not to have taken place if the warehouse property of
Liverpool had not been constructed upon false and improper
principles. He could bear testimony to the efficiency of the
tire-police, as for some years there had scarcely been a single
fire at which he had not been present. He had no hesitation
sayingregulated,
niwtivahetabretipdt
Liverpool
yon
loa;ranlbdlmu England
rer.
what
Hewittcould
skilfullyu lthere
d any
i yrwwe
fire-police
whenudn o,
the
ht
hea ad fire-policetoh;ew
warehouseh at
could
bi ne
t fire-
policet er
No
was generally half burnt before a drop,ont; water could be
Cal-
ton-street, a fire which only occurred a few
ob-
tained ? In the case of Sir John Tobi s
weeks
previouslyG al-
marrri.vewd
hoiotttyherusnponitn:ouabldouhta
to the great fire, a single bucket of water soon after he (Mr.
like a lunatic, begging
put the fire out, but
a single bucket of water could notvb
11
i himselfu' e)
obtained. He saw
for water in all directions; and it was not till two stories of
that warehouse, containing most valuab produce, had been
consumed, that any water could be obtained, and even then
they were obliged to obtain it from the dock. That a ready
and immediate supp
ly of water would at
all times almost ex-
tinguish great fires, there was on that occasion practical
proof, for as soon as they got a sufficient
three stories went then in a state of dreadkulpply, although
conflagration,

they sdiceeeded hi preventing the fire from extending to the
remaining three stories, both as to the building and the pro-
duce they contained were saved. He mentioned this fact to
show that a supply of water ought to be available, immedi-
ately, and in all directions, whenever a fire took place, for, he
repeated, that a single bucket of water, when first the fire
broke out, was of more importance than almost any quantity
of it afterward:=. It was not his intention to have gone into
details as to the detects in the warehouse system, as the com-
e them power to

niittee were merely a

atnent, to prevent them from being thrown over
the session ; he would, however, with the permission of the
council, as far as his strength would allow him, state a few
of the defects which, as he conceived, attached theinselles to
the warehouses of Liverpool. The first was the narrow
streets in which many of the warehouses were erected. When
a warehouse took fire in a narrow street, and there was a
wind blowing towards the opposite building, having nothing
but wooden doors, wooden shutters and pent house, the fire
was almost immediately communicated, from the great heat
thrown from the other side of the street. The best plan was
to give a practical proof of his meaning. When the fire took
place in Lancelot's-hey he was down there; the fire shot
across the street in one sheet of flame, and long before the
warehouses on the west side were consumed, the warehouses
on the east side were in a state of conflagration.
Mr. Alderman EVANS.-It was so with the Goree, which
is a wide street.

go to par

Mr. Hoene.—The next defect was the non-separation of
the roofs of warehouses. Warehouses built in stacks, with
nothing to separate them but a lead gutter, between the spar
of one warehouse and the spar of the other. No sooner did
the lead melt than the spars, being at a declination from the
roof, ignited, and the warehouse itnrnedietely took fire. The
warehouse got into a state of flame at a part which the police
could not reach, and so it ran from roof to roof, and that was
the reason why we had seen such great destruction. If the
warehouses had been properly constructed, the fames would
have been confined to the place where they had originated.
The next defect was the proximity of the bearing timbers in
these warehouses. It had not been unusual for stacks of
warehouses to be erected from one end of a street to another,
in many cases with party walls, and being connected one with
another, here was another means of communicating fire.
The next defect in warehouses was having them constructed
with wooden pent-houses projecting from the roof, cat-heads,
with wood doors and windows ; the consequence was, that
all these being constructed of Baltic timber, which was full
of turpentine, the pent-houses were commonly the first thing
to take fire. He need not tell the Council that the pent-
houses of warehouses were just in that position which the
fire-police were unable to reach by the force of their engines.
It was quire an error to suppose that one of our common en •
gines could reach the pent-house of a tall warehousd. The
next defect was wooden staircases ; and a great defect it was,
because in consequence of their being merely separated from
the warehouse-rooms by a thin wooden partition, and the
stairs being spiral, the flames ran up them ; and when a ware-
house took fire the staircase was almost the first thing com-
pletely consumed. It was likewise a means of communicat-
ing the flames from room to room ; and therefore he was
under the necessity of saying that wooden staircases were
a great defect in our warehouses, and one which he hoped to
see soon remedied. Besides, when a staircase was on fire it was
utterly impossible for the fire-police to get into any room which
might be in a state of conflagration. The next great defect was
the proximity of many warehouses to dangerous trades. It
was not at all an unusual thine. in Liverpool to see a stack of
warehouses filled with cotton, every window open, and within
a few yards of it half a dozen, or a dozen common low smithy
chimnies vomiting out smoke mixed with sparks. Under
such circumstances, it was only to be wondered at that our
fires had not been more numerous than they had been. There
were great numbers of other trades which were exceedingly
dangerous, whose proximity to warehouses was to be carefully
guarded against. Having spo'een of the defects in our ware-
houses, let him now be permitted to speak of that which he
would venture respectfully to submit to the council, as a
practical man, who had paid great attention to the subject,
who had assisted with his own hands to erect many ware-
houses in Liverpool, and who, since he had become a master
tradesman, had had some practical experience in the building
of warehouses. With great respect, therefore, he begged to
recommend, as the council probably could not obtain an act
of parliament to operate retrospectively, that in all future
streets laid out for warehouse purposes, or in any case where
mercantile men, either individually or in bodies, might choose
to build warehouses in squares, there should be an increased
width of street or of court. If you had sixteen yards width, it
was probable that the warehouses being on fire upon one side
would not communicate to the warehouses upon the other ;
and, as an example, in the great fire in Crompton-street, the
warehouses upon the side- of-Neptune-street—a street of six-
teen yards wide—were unscathed. He, therefore, considered
an increased width of street a subject of vital importance.
He would, likewise, beg to point out the necessity for a bet-
ter separation of roofs and bearing timbers, and as a sketch
would give more information than he could orally he had
drawn one—which he submitted to them—from which they
would see that every warehouse would be rendered a perfect
funnel, completely fire-proof, to conduct the flames, so that
they could no more communicate to the adjoining building,
than if they were sent up the middle of the chimney. Then he
would suggest that the doors, shutters,pent-houses,cat-heads,
should be of iron, and especially the staircase, which, instead
of being of wood, should be framed either of seine or of iron ;
and that the staircases should be enclosed with brick walls up '
to the top of the building, by which the fire-police might, at
any moment, have free access to the top of the warehouse,
the roof of the adjoining warehouse, and water be taken to '
where water was wanted. The next was smithies and fur-
naces in the vicinity of warehouses. Unquestionably, as a
measure of public security, they ought to be obliged to turn
their small flues into one general chimney. The great danger
from sparks—for it was a spark from a bone-boiler's which '
first set fire to the warehouses in Galton-street—would then
be avoided, and no calamitous result would ensue. Ware-
houses, he granted, might be built fire-proof at a compara-
tively small expence above the common mode of building :
he was not, however, prepared to say how much additional,
because, at present, it was in some degree speculative, and
iron-founders were not prepared to give estimates with that
accuracy which would soon be arrived at ; hat he had no
hesitation in saying this, that warehouses might be built en-
tirely fire-proof for somewhere between 13 and 17 per cent.
additional. And this he did contend, that if warehouses were
not erected entirely fire-proof, if you had the party walls
made strong enough, the whole of the timbers completely
divided, the roofs divided at the top by i arapet walls,
if you had iron doors and iron shutters, and stone
or iron staircases, yogi would convert every warehouse
into a perfect fire-proof funnel ; and he would stake
his existence that a warehouse constructed upon this
principle would never communicate fire to any adjoining
buildings ; but that the fire might in all cases be kept in the
building in which it originated. Me knew it was said, and
it might be argued, that this act would be an interference
with the rights bf private property ; but he begged to ask,
whether the Building Act, which was not obtained without
opposition, was not in some degree an act of interference
with private property? Parliament gave the council power
to compel individuals about to erect houses in Liverpool, to
have stronger walls and stronger timbers than had been
hitherto usual. Was not that, in some degree, an act of in-
terference with the rights of private property ? Again, the
Health of the Town Bill was an interference with the rights
of private property, for it compelled parties to have courts of
a certain width, and that all should be lewered, which would
involve expense; therefore, when he was told that this pro-
posed bill was in some degree an interference with the rights
of private property, he replied that it was not more an inter-
ference with the rights of property than the Building Act,
obtained some years ago, or the Health of the ?own Bill,
now in operation. In all great measures for the public
benefit, there must, in sonic degree, be an interference with
the rights of property ; and he contended, that this proposed
bill should be looked upon as an extension of the Building
Act, and not as upon a new bill. Mr. Evans said, " let this
bill lie over for a few months ;" but could any man guarantee
that his own house would not be burnt down this night;?
Could any one say that Launcelot's
Hey might not be in
flames within a week from this time? And if they had
established, as this committee had established,and was firmly
of opinion that great danger resulted from the present system,
why defer even for a few weeks? Mr. Evans contended for
the necessity of dock warehouses ; but when he was opposed,
did Ine ever think of saying, " let the bill lie over for a few
months, it is of no importance ?" (Laughter.) No e he
said it was of vital importance, and he would not welt for a
moment; and he (Mr. Holme) now threw upon the council
the responsibility of refusing to go to parliament for the
benefit of the poor who suffered from these fires, as well as
the rich merchants, for this bill which was imperatively
wanted. Mr. Evans said that buildings were now being
erected. So they
were ; at this moment a number of ware-
houses were being erected ; but he (Mr. Holme) begged to
observe, that many of them were in the place of those which
had been burnt down, and, with one slight exception, they
were all being reconstructed as they were before ; and he was
very much mistaken if, in reconstructing those warehouses in
a street only eight yards wide, they were not erecting mate-
rials for another serious bonfire at no distant period. Mr.
Evans stated that iron shutters were of no use unless they
were closed; but the shutters of warehouses were those
which of all things the Fire Committee would say that there
should be a clause compelling them to be closed, in the same
way as Mr. Evans would make a law to compel shipkeepers
to walk the deck all night. He granted that iron shutters were
of no use unless they were closed. [Mr. Alderman EVANS.--
" Corn."] Well, there might be an exception in the case of
corn. He was reminded, that warehouse occupiers were
compelled to heave, the heisting ropes up ; and the same thing
might be enacted with regard to the windows. Mr. *vans
had talked a good deal about bolstering up old warehouses: lie
seemed, indeed, to have a great horror of old warehouses ;
but he knew not with what grace Mr. Evans could say
that this was a bill to bolster up old warehouses, when they
were absolutely trying to make those old warehouses compa-
ratively fire-proof. Mr. Evans must remember that they
were not laying the foundations of a new town, but that they
were dealing with Liverpool as it was, and as it had grown
during the last century and half. If they had to begin de
novo, it would be easy to say they would not have warehouses
in the streets at all ; but they had to deal with two or three
millions' worth of property in existence—much of which be-
longed to trustees, which, of course, it was difficult to deal
with—upon which he knew a great many children depended
for•their bread ; and, therefore, they must deal with things
as they found them, and not argue as if they were going to
build a new town. He (Mr. Holme) thought the council
would give him credit for disinterestedness, for as a ware-
house owner this proposed bill would involve him in consi-
derable expense ; and with reference to his own trade he was
at once agreeing to cut off a considerable portion of that by
which he earned his bread. He, therefore, stood up as a dis-
interested man to recommend this measure. He was not an
their
etinrem rebiie mr
rof the
n individual for great haste, but he said, if the council did not
give the committee permission to go to parliament for a mea-
sure to prevent life and property from being lost, after the
labour, attention, and time which the committee had be-
stowed upon the subject, he thought it would be hardly
treating them fairly ;--at all events he trusted that the bill
ad any council.
wpuotuldin ttiolen thebe Bandsgla
might go to the first reading and be printed in order to be
li es
from the town, and he should be prepared to defend those
clauses which he had had the honour of suggesting. Mr.
Holme concluded by an earnest call upon the council to agree
to the motion.
glad to to ofheeavrer

d
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE said he should give a vote at vari-
ance with the sentiments he had expressed at the beginning. After the able speech he had heard from Mr. Holine, an
the(A i
rimportant
Lawrence)details n
could whichot that gentleman had produced, he
incur the responsibility of delaying
at this moment the object of the committee. It would be
too great a responsibility for him to incur; but he did com-
plain of the committee having given the council so bald and
poor a report. When the bill should come before them in a
printed shape, he should be ready to give it every considera-
tion in his power, but at the same time he thought the diffi-
culties in it were very great.
The motion was then Put by the MAYOR and carried
witkout a division.