The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-11-22 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD,

boat drawing eight feet water had passed through. The in-
tricate channel was not to be described by two buoys, as was
the plan of Mr. Evans. Mr. Evans had never passed the chan-
nel until he (Mr. Askew) had done so. Lieut. Evans had
offered to sell to him the copyright of the chart, together with
all the fees he expected from the Dock Committee for £lOO, and
the sub Dock Committee had given him £350 for his services.
he Commissioners said it was not their duty to inquire into
the relative merits of Mr. Askew and Mr. Evans.
Mr. Askew said that a charge had been made against him for
procrastinating the business respecting the buoys. He had not
done so, but he wished the survey had been postponed until
spring, so that he could have done the business more effectually.
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson inquired whether Mr. Askew s
bond in £5OO had ever been executed ?

The Treasurer replied that it had not, but could state the
reason why.
The Town-clerk remarked that the terms of Mr. Askew's
engagement were that he should not carry on business under
a penalty of I:500; but he the Town-clerk) had never received
instructions to prepare the bond.
Mr. Leathom was of opinion that if the harbour-master had
devoted more of his attention to the vessels coming in, seeing
that they were not kept out of dock an unreasonable time, he
would probably have prevented the bribery and corruption
amongst the dock masters, which, he was sorry to see, had been
carried on.

Mr. Leathom, in answer to some questions from Mr. Rad-
cliffe, stated, that although the members of the Dock Committee
alluded to before were not shipowners, they were great ex-
porters and importers of goods. He was also of opinion that
facility of accommodation in the port for the import and export
of gotids was likely to increase the business of Liverpool. fhe
port was situated in the centre of the principal manufactur-
ing towns in the kingdom, where manufactured goods, coals,
salt, earthenware, &c. were to be had in abundance, which was
an inducement to the London, Scotch, and Irish merchants to
choose it as the port for exportation, in consequence of which,
it was desirable, for the growing prosperity of the town, that
the dues of the port should be less expensive. The new tracl,
with the empire of China and South America, and the increas-
ing trade in all parts of the world, would, he thought, lead
Liverpool to look for increased accommodation for shipping,
and he hoped it' such was the case, that the general good would
be looked to, and not private interests, in the building of extra
docks—that they would be built in a more convenient situation.
He trusted that the result of the inquiry would tend to produce
harmony in the Dock Committee, and that instead of discus-
sion, they would all unite to promote the general welfare of the
town.

Mr. Myers confirmed the opinion of Mr. Leathom with
respect to the facility of despatch in the port being likely to
increase the business, but he thought when the present docks
were completed, that there would be no want of space.
Mr. Askew cross-examined by Mr. Duncan.—The Dock
Commissioners elected by the rate-payers were extensive rate-
payers, and consignees of goods; Liverpool being situated in
the vicinity of the. manufacturing and productive districts, ex-
ported eartheuware,_salt, hardware, coat, copper, &c. including,
the productions of Ireland and Glasgow, to every quarter of
the globe, and it was of importance that every facility should
be given to the shippers of goods; having lately been at Lon-
don, he was aware that the rival dock owners there were doing
every thing in their power, by affording every facility, as well
as by low charges. to interfere with the trade of Liverpool; it
was natural to suppose that the opening of the China trade, in
addition to the extensive markets of South America, would in
a few years give this port the greatest portion of the commerce
of the world, and by that means render the present dock room
inadequate to the demand; he hoped any future docks would be,
when needed, obtained in a central situation. (Hear.) The
establishment of steam vessels had brought the greatest part of
the trade of Glasgow and Ireland to Liverpool, which were then
transhipped for foreign ports, and by means of the railway,
goods could be ordered from Manchester and shipped iu less
than 48 hours when necessary.

In answer to a query from the Town-clerk, as to the shortest
time in which vessels flad discharged, loaded, and sailed,
Mr. Askew said that he had commanded vessels in the
Jamaica trade for twenty-three years, during which time he
had never cost the Underwriters one shilling, and had dis-
charged, loaded and sailed the " Benson," a large vessel of 4)0
tons, in six days. A vessel of Messrs. Barton and Co. of the
same tonnage, had performed the same in five days; these, how-
ever, were extraordinary instances of despatch.
Mr. I'. Bolton said-that the despatch alluded to was not the
ordinary time in which vessels unloaded. He had a vessel of
GOO tons recently come into port, which had to wait a week be-
fore she could get a berth. When the docks were partially
empty there was no delay in getting into dock, but when the
dock was full they had to take their chance.
Mr. Radcliffe here recurred to the subject of Mr. Bourne, the
solicitor, and read a prote.st, signed by seven rate-payers, against
his appointment.
Mr. Hassell, the partner of Mr. Cornelius Bourne, examined
Mr. Leathom as to his grounds of objection to Mr. C. Bourne.
Mr. Leathom.—His only objections were on account of his
youth and inexperience; he had seen little of the young man
since he had been appointed.
Mr. 11yers had never heard Mr. Bourne deliver an opinion
until Thursday last, when he gave an opinion upon an act of
Parliament, and then he was wrong;—he referred to the right
of purchasing the Graving Dock No.l, under act of Parliament.
Mr. Commissioner Wiikinson.—Then, according to your
opinion, it would not be safe to entrust Mr. Bourne, unassisted,
with the soliciting of a bill through Parliament.
Mr. Myers.—lt would not.
Mr. Sandbach and Sir George Drinkwater spoke in high
terms of the ability displayed by Mr. Bourne as clerk to the
magistrates.
'I he Town-clerk differed iu opinion with Mr. Myers as to the
great difficulty of an attorney's business being to solicit an act
of Parliament. It was almost the least difficult. A great deal
of assiduity and perseverance was requisites but little more.
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson.—But with regard to framing
the bill ? _ _ _

Town-clerk.—Why, if the secrets of the profession were to be
known, he would state what was well known to professional
men,•that a solicitor seldom framed an act of Parliament on his
own sole judgment, but called in the assistance of an experienced
conveyancer.
Mr. Radcliffe.—What the Town-clerk means by perseverance
and assiduity I suppose is bowing, scraping, and, waiting upon
members of 'Parliament.

Town-clerk.---I confess that is one half of the business.—
(Laughter.)
Mr. Radcliffe asked how it was, if the procuring an act of
Parliament was such an easy business, that solicitors were al-
lowed double fees when engaged in that business ?
Town-clerk.—That is to keep up the dignity of the House of
Commons. (A laugh.) A solicitor ought to be paid more for
attending the Imperial Parliament than a common court of
law. (Laughter.)
Mr. T. Bolton, in answer to a question from the commission-
ers, stated, that he would not have disturbed the town dues
question, had the town dues been placed upon an equality.—
Before the erection of docks, and the imposition of tonnage
cuties, the town dues were collected for improving the port.
Mr. Chalmers, surgeon, wished to know when the commis-
sioners would enter into the manner in which burgesses were
made, as he and his family had resided in Liverpool for 150
years, and they had been burgesses of Liverpool, whilst he had
not; he thought he had very strong claims, and could make out
a very strong case.
The commissioners stated that Mr. Radcliffe intended opening
the cases of bribery at elections on the morrow, when the case
would form part of incidentally.
Mr. William Rathbone examined.—Had been a merchant
and burgess twenty-five years; was a burgess by. birth. As
chairman of a committee, having been requested, in company
with his friends, Messrs. R. E. Harvey and Wyberg, to proceed
to Loudon, in furtherance of an inquiry respecting the parlia-
mentary and municipal elections of Liverpool, by the House
of Commons, he begged leave to hand the court a copy of the
report which was the result of that inquiry, with a request that
it might be read; also, to furnish the commissioners with a copy
of the evidence upon which that report was founded, to which,
with their permission, he was desirous of adding a few observa-
tions.

The Town-clerk having read the report,
Mr. ltathbone resumed.—lt was with deep regret he asserted
that, within the last 25 or:30 years, near a quarter of a million had
been spent in election purposes. The evil had been so extended
and general as almost to have ceased to be considered to be wrong;
and he was so far from wishing to attempt to conceal, that he con-
fessed in his younger days he himself did not escape the conta-
gion. Ile thought the corrupter was worse than the corrupted;
but the money he so spent was his own, not raised by any indirect
means, and used to oppose those who had the loaves and fishes
to &ive,- -not, therefore, with any view of profitable investment,
imparting in return a provision for children, relations, or de-
pendents. This evil was extended so widely as to infuse itself
into all relations, political, commercial, and social, so as to re-
quire no small degree of moral courage to maintain indepen-
dence or even integrity of conduct. This state of things, it
was the object of the gentlemen with whom it was his honour
to act, to try to amend since the passing of the reform bill,
which might be done without . punishing those who had been
more sinned against than sinning, as the elective franchise was
within the reach of all. A cellar was let for 3s. per week: Is.
per week more in addition would give the qualification of a LW
householder, which would be a fair test of the qualification ,•
and if connected with the right of electing local governors and
making them responsible to the public, would raise the charac-
ter of the electors and the elected, and greatly promote the re-
spectability and real welfare of every class, high and low, rich
and poor, in this great community. He was the only member
of his family that was free, although his father was a freeman,
owing to a curious circumstance, which was, that his mother's
health wee so bad at the time of her confinement that she could
not bear to be removed. which of itself was a proof of the ab.
surdity of the present state of the elective franchise.
The commissioners having intimated their ir tention to finish
the dock business the first,thing in the morning, and then pro-
ceed upon the inquiry, the court adjourned at three o'clock.

SIXTEENTH DAY

Yesterday morning, the commissioners resumed their labours.
They entered the court a few minutes after ten o'clock.
Lieutenant Morrison rose and inquired whether it was the
intention of the commissioners to investigate the subject of the
Seaman's Hospital? He had understood that a building for
seamen was commenced building in the year 1G77, to which the
seaman paid 6s. per month, and he understood that the Corpo-
ration were connected with it, inasmuch as the Common
Council held the funds.

The cammibsioners, after consulting with the Town-clerk, were
clearly of opinion that the hospital was not within the jurisdic-
tion of the commission.

Mr. Jamei Molleneux rose to ask the Town-clerk a few ques-
tions relative to the appointing ot the clergyman to St. Michael's
Church, in July 1830. He had understood Mr. Foster had
said, that the gentleman appointed had no connection with the
Common Council. He begged lease to ask if a petition signed
by one half of the congregation of the church had not been pre-
-seated to the Common Council against Mr. Johnson's appoint-
ment.

The Town-clerk was at a loss to know what inference Mr.
Molleneux had drawn from his previous statement, hut he re-
eated, if he had said it before, that it was his firm belief Mr.
Johnson had neither a relative nor any connection whatever in
the Common Council. He could not state whether there was
a petition of the kind alluded to presented; but a reference to
the books would show.
Mr. Molleneux replied, he should wish to see the petition,
that the commissioners might be aware of the objections of the
congregation. He had heard that, from some natural impedi-
ment in the speech of Mr. Johnson, he was not audible to the
congregation. After the Petition was brought forward, it was
his intention to ask if there were any pews to let in the church
prior to the appointment, and how many were to let at the
present time.
The Town-clerk said he would endeavour to procure a copy
of the pet tion by this day. His conviction was, that Mr.
Johnson had no opponent for the situation.
Mr. Radcliffe said- the object of Mr. Molleneux appeared to be
that he wanted to show an abuse of the Corporation patronage.
Mr. Molleneux.—Certainly, and I shall take another oppor-
tunity of alluding to the subject. and produce Mr. Lawrence,
the churchwarden to give evidence.
The Commissioner said he would take the evidence on Fri-
day morning.
Mr. liathbone put in a copy of the petition presented to the
House of Commons, praying for the disfranchieement of the
bur-gesses, on the grounds of bribery and corruption.
Mr. Sudlow read the petition.

Mr. Thomas Chalmers, surgeon, having been sworn, stated
that he was a surgeon, and had resided in Liverpool for forty
years. The object he had in view was not to bring charges
against any one, nor to deprive the burgesses of the privileges
they- enjoyed either by servitude or birthright; but he sought,
through the means of the commissioners, to report to the
government of the country the present situation of a great
number of the respectable inhabitants of the town of Liverpool.
From the nature of the present charter, by which the burgesses
were made, a man could not acquire his freedom of the borough
excepting by three modes, which were by birth, servitude, or
from the gift of the Common Council. No length of residence,
nor respectability of family, could give him the right of free-
dom. There were upwards of two hundred gentlemen of the
same profession as himself, whose periods of apprenticeship
were five years ;—they seldom commenced their terms of ap-
prenticeship until the age of sixteen, and the remainder of
their education was completed at the universities, or at the
public schools of the metropolis. Thus they (the commissioners)
would see that by the nature of his profession, he and others
were shut out from obtaining freedom by servitude. Had he
(Mr. Chalmers) been induced to have served seven years' ap-
prenticeship, he doubted whether in the whole town he could
have found a medical man in Liverpool possessed of his freedom
as a burgess. Out of the two hundred individuals in the pro-
fession now in Liverpool, he believed that only seven possessed
the franchise of a burgess, and out of those live had had their
freedom granted by the Common Council for long and valuable
gratuitous services to the charitable institutions during the time
of sickness, and the other two were free by birthright. There
was no necessity for him to pass any eulogium upon these gen-
tlemen, but he believed that they yielded to none in zeal and
ardour to obtain medical knowledge for the service of the insti-
tutions and their profession generally. He did not think it was
vanity when he stated that he thought gentlemen who had re-
ceived a good education in a liberal profession were equally as
capable of judging of the propriety of who should be Mayor of
the town, and who should be the parliamentary representative,
as the blacksmith who had served seven years to a handicraft
trade, and who might not during the whole of that period have
received more knowledge than to know how to make a hiss
with a red hot nail, as it required no talent or ability beyond the
mere servitude to entitle him to the freedom act burgess. He,
(Mr. C.,) and his family might be said to have been inhabitants
of the borough for the period of a century. His grandfather
was a merchant in the town, and he believed was in the same
office as the alderman who sat on the commissioners' left, (Mr.
Bourne.) His grandfather, on his mother's side, was a mer-
chant and a burgess, and his mother and all his brothers and
sisters were born free burgesses of the town. (Laughter.)—
He meant that his mother was a free woman. (Loud
laughter.) Their descendants were all free, and himself,
although descended from persons who had been a whole cen-
tury in the town, was not a burgess. The commissioners would
here see a strange anomaly ; they would perceive a family on
the father's side not free, and on the mother's side all free.
From the formation of the present charter the bulk of the inha-
bitants of the town were deprived of the freedom of the borough,
and there was no cause or reason for the exclusion of the rest
of the inhabitants, excepting the present charter, which stood
between them and their freedom. He hoped, through the pre-
sent inquiry, to see an extension of the charter, and that being
his impression he had taken the liberty of making a few re-
marks. As the charter was at present constituted, if he had
gone upon the hustings at an election he would have been told
that he had no business there, not being a freeman.
Mr. John Taylor rose and said that he wished to state his
sentiments relative to the mode of elections in the borough of
Liverpool. In opposing his opinion to that of others he might
as well state the fact, that he had frequented the Liverpool
market as a buyer of cotton for thirty.-five years, and had been
a purchaser to a considerable extent; in addition he had resided
in Liverpool for seventeen years, during which time he had
been a householder, and he was quite certain that under the pre-
sent cir,rter there was not the least chance of his obtaining the
borough suffrage. Ha new charter was obtained he hoped it would
be enacted that there should be no tax for the admission of voters
to receive their elective franchise, and that the votes at elections
should be given by ballot, which would be the means of doing
away with the pernicious system of bribery, corruption, and
intimidation which had been carried on at elections. The elec-
tions' for Common Councilmen and Aldermen should be annual;
and, at the displacing of these Aldermen and Common Council-
men, they ought not to be re-eligible until the expitation of a
year, nor the commission of justice of the peace be permitted
to continue with the Aldermen and Common Councilmen at the
expiration of three years. The Mayor and Bailiffs ought not
to remain returning officers in sending members to Parliament;
and an express prohibition should be made against members of
Parliament interfering in any way with appointments to situa-
tions of emolument or otherwise in the borough of Liverpool.
The property of the present Corporation ought to be divided
into separate trusts, according to the distinct manner of appro-
priation, and committed to trustees for each purpose; those trus-
tees to be elected every three years, by parliamentary voters and
burgesses. Mr. Tayior then went on with a lengthy statement
of what he should wish to he done under a new order of things,
resulting from the inquiry, amongst which were, that all the
functions of the existing Corporation were to cease and pass
to other persons. That no person should pay £22 for being
admitted a burgess, as it was an inducement for poor men not
to take up their freedom until some candidate for the borough
did it for them. He need not, he said, detail the advantages
to be derived from the vote by ballot to the commissioners, as
he had no doubt, from their edication and profession, they were
fully aware of them, and of the pernicious influence of canvass-.
ing for votes. He then alluded to the mode of electing repre-
sentatives, which, he said, was not sufficiently open, he having
been denied entrance to the hustings at the late election, which
he partly attributed to .‘ the powers that be," and partly to the
Whigs being afraid he should propose another Whig in opposi
tion to., Mr. Ewart, he having, on a previous occasion, brought
Mr. Denison in for Liverpool, when the Whigs and the Tories
were coalescing. (The announcement of Mr. Taylor having
returned Mr. Denison was received with roars of laughter.)
Mr. Taylor concluded his speech by stating that the present
Corporation were not worthy of the station they filled ; and he
hoped they would, ere long, return back to that obscurity in
society from which they emerged. (Laughter.)
The Commissioner inquired if Mr. Taylor was deputed by
any body of his fellow-townsmen to come forward and make the
sta:ements he had.

Mr. Taylot replied that he was not, but he was convinced
that he had stated the sentiments of a great majority of not
only the working people, but the gentlemen of the Exchange
—(a latigh)—the working people he considered, in many instan•
ces, to be more respectable than those who called themselves so.
Mr. Woodward denied that the gentlemen on 'Change enter-
tained any such opinions.
Mr. George Green asked Mr. Taylor if he had not been in
the habit of attending public meetings ?
Mr. Taylor reptieethat lie had attended a few.
Mr.• Green ailed if he recollected the meeting where lie
made a motion and was left in the minority, having one vote.
(A latish.)
Mr,-,.Taylor did not recollect.
Mr, Thomas Thornely rose and stated, that although the
statement of Mr. Chalmers needed no confirmation, he begged
leave:to make a remark as regarded himself, on the subject of
excluding the respectable inhabitants from the freedom of the
borough. He was born in Liverpool, and his father was a
resident of the borough for nearly sixty years; and his object
in rising was to say that- himself and the bulk of the house-
holders of Liverpool were precluded from the power of voting
for the election of magistrates to administer justice in the
borough. That right was exclusively exercised by a limited
number of persons, who were the present burgesses. He
might also add that he paid town dues, whitth was matter of
complaint, Whilst others were exempt on account of their free.
dom, and he thought similar sentiments were entertained by
a majority of the inhabitants of the town.
Cross-examined by the Town-clerk.—ls in- the American
trade, Cannot state the amount of town dues paid by his firm.
The amount of dues paid on his account were very small. The
dues were paid on account of correspondents in America, Man-
chester, Birmingham, and different parts of the world. It was
the practice to charge those dues to the correspondents. A
large proportion of the business of Liverpool was done upon
commission, but does not know the proportion. There had
been a great reduction in the price of salt within the last 20
years, and it is now about half the price it was at that period.
Amougst the gentlemen in the Common Council there are a
great many extensively engaged in trade, and as eminent mer-
chants as any in the town.
Town-cleik (to the commissioners), probably you are aware
that Mr. Thornely was a candidate for the repiesentation of the
borough on a late occasion,
Mr. Commissioner Wilkinson.—Yes, we are aware of that fact.
Mr. Radcliffe asked Mr. Thornely if the prosperity of the
town did not depend upon the large manufacturing towns and
other places he had named.
Mr. Thornely replied that it did.
Mr. Alderman Horsfall iose and said that he was the Mayor
at the election Mr. Taylor had referred to. The hustings were
a very confined space, and, with a view to accommodate tt II par-
ties a quantity of tickets was sent to the committee of each can-
didate, so that the committee and the candidate's friends should
not be excluded. He recollected the circumstance of Mr. Tay-
lor endeavouring to gain admission without a ticket, when the
police; officer very properly told him that he was placed there to
Prevent any person passing up without a ticket. Had they al-
owed all the voters to have crowded to the hustings, there wouldl
not have been room for the candidates. On hearing that it was
Mr. Taylor who was making the disturbance, to- prevent any-
thing unpleasant he immediately sent him a ticket,• which he
understood Mr. Taylor tore up and trampled upan. Mr. Taylor
gained admission, and came up to him (Mr. Horsfall) in a very
violent manner, and in fact held his fist up to him. He, how-
ever, did not take any notice „cif Mr. Taylor's conduct, but if
there was any complaint at, all he thought that it was himself
-(Mr„lifirsfall) who should" have complained. He had once or
twice been-to a hustings in a similar way to Mr. T. and was re-
fused. admission, but he had not, in consequence, stormed the
Torn-hall and insulted the returning officer. (Hear.) He
should have forgotten the circumstance and never have again
mentioned it if Mr. Taylor had not alluded to the subject.
The Town-clerk said that he had not alluded to the cireum-
stance, because it was so notorious in the town, he did notthink
it worth while troubling the commissi ,ners with a relation of
the facts. He did not admit every statement that had been
made in the court, because it had been uncontradicted and nuex-
bours, long
plained ; had that been the case their (the commissioners) le-
as they had been, would have been twenty times
longer. :With respect to exclusion from the hustings, lie would
appeal to any one, but Mr. Radcliffe in particular, whether it
had not invariably been the practice to accommodate the can-
didates and their committees in the hustings in the best possible
way.
Air. Radcliffe.—Decidedly.
Town-clerk.—Great facility in taking the poll had resulted
from persons being admitted to the hustings by ticket only:
Mr. Radcliffe said he never found any difficulty in obtaining
tickets at the election, and he never observed niore anxious im-
partiaity in his life than that displayed by Mr. Horsfall and
the bailiffs (the three returning officers
Mr. 'not nely said that there was some difficulty in obtaining
Taylor, who thieatened to bring the Mayor before the House
of !-%errt mons. ).--(Cheers.)
_

Mr. Alderman Bourne spoke to the violent conduct .of Mr.
entrance at one door, but when it was known that the applicants
were the candidate and his friends, it was immediately opened.
He thought it would be better if the electors were not so much
cooped u in the Town-hall—if a more efficient place could be
found. With respect to the conduct of the returning officers,
he and his friends were so well satisfied with them that they
deemed it their duty to wait upon the Mayor and thank him for
the impartial conduct displayed. (Cheers.)
Mr. Taylor ackm;wieclgeethat, when excited, he was not one
of the coolest men in the world, but he considered that he had,
according to the King's writ, a right to go to the hustings with-
out a ticket.

Lieutenant Morrison here said that he was turned rudely back,
because he had no ticket. He was of a similar opinion to Mr.
Taylor; he would either go in on his right as a voter or keep out.
Mr. Horsfall said, it might be inferred from what had been
stated, that the voters had to go through the door by which those
who went by tickets entered. The voters went another way
to vote and *there was not the least obstruction to them.
The Town-clerk remarked that the time alluded to by Mr.
Taylor was at the nomination of the candidates, not at the
e:e: Con. _ _

Mr. Radcliffe now resumed the subject of the Dock Estate,
and ieferied to several acts of Parliament authorising the Dock
Estate to build docks, which building had materially improved
the property surrounding them belonging to the Corporation ;

the Corporation ha' ing reserved for themselves in all the acts of
Parliament the Dower of building warehouses and enclosing
the land about the Docks. Mr. Radcliffe's object was to shew the
necessity of the separation of the two estates from each other,
for if, he said, the two estates had been distinctly represented,
might it not be supposed that there would have been sufficient
foresight on the part of the Dock Trustees to have secured
the right to the valuable land, which they must necessarily
have made by the erection of those docks. Before the
erection of the docks, the land upon which they built
them, and which now surrounds them, the property of
the Corporation, was ,useless, and belonged to the river
Mersey. If the trustees of the docks had had sufficient care
and foresight, they would never have resigned that land to the
Corporation. However the trust might have been previous, the
Corporation having ceased to be owners of the docks, there was
now a necessity for a distinct separation. The amendment bill
relating to the docks was no amendment, beyond that it admit-
ted eight rate-payers into the committee to watch over the pro-
ceedings, but six of the rate-payers seeing their inanity, from
the opposition they met with, were almost prepared to resign
unless some alteration was made in the constitution. Mr. Rad-
cliffe concluded a long argument, for which we have not room, by
disclaiming any unfriendly feeling towards any members of the
Common Council in thus discharging his duty to the rate-payers.
Mr. Cyrus Sierran, formerly examined.—Was a member of
the Duck Committee, and was delegated, in 1811, to obtain the
act of Parliament for the erection of the docks. in conse-
quence of the support that he and others had given to obtaining
the bill in 1811, the Common Council gave hint the freedom
of the borough, together with Mr. Gladstone and Mr. Lawrence.
The opponents of the bill were proprietors of laud at the south
and north ends of the town. He attended in Loudon. in 1825,
to endeavour to obtain that bill, and he was reappointed to the
Dock Committe by rotation. He was of opinion that, in the
constitution of the Dock Committee, the present members were
not the same, as he thought quite proper ; but there were rea-
sons why the Common Council should be connected with this
committee, as there were interests in the port which could not
be represented without them. Previous to the Canning Dock
being made a dry dock, it was exclusively used for the coasting
trade, and in consequeuce of the alterations, the coasting
vessels were partially excluded He thought the trade of Li-
verpool had suffered much from the want of accommodation
for craft in the river trade, as they depended upon them for the
goods they exported and the goods they imported. The reason
he thought there should be a greater infusion of men of business
in the Dock Committee was, that the men of business, but not in
business, would balance the conflicting interests in the committee.
He had understood that the intention of the Corporation bad been
to convert the Graving Dock into an accommodation for the river
craft. He differed in opinion with those gentlemen as to the
expediency of the Graving Docks forming a part of the Dock
Estate, and as a member of . the Dock Committee he should
have opposed it, as it would have extracted from their means a
large.sum to little purpose. He does not remember, excepting
on two accasions, of there being much confliction in the Dock
Committee. The one was on the constrifetio-n, of the act of
Parliament relative to the Queen's Dock, and some land
attached to the dock. They were of opinion that this land,
although invested in the hands of the trustees by the act of
1811, it was not the intention of that act it should be so. The
other great difference of opinion related to the reversionary
interest of the Corporation in certain houses near the Salthouse
Dock, which, by the act of 1825, were ordered to be taken
down for the purpose of making a street. The altercation was
as to which should bear the expense of taking them down; and
as the Dock Committee were to take them down, they thought
it was not too much to ask the Corporation for the reversionary
interest, which the Corporation would not grant. There was
some other altercation respecting the admission of a reporter • and
he (Mr. M.) advocated that a reporter should be admitted. 'The
late Mr. Irlam was agaiustthe admission of a reporter, and said
that that moment they admitted a reporter, his lips would be
sealed, as he had no objection to give his best advice to the
Committee, but he would not suffer to have every word he said
criticised and handed about the town in a newspaper. Most of
the Graving Docks are in a delapiilated state from the soft kind
of stone used, and it was M. Hartley, the surveyor's, opinion
that they should be built of harder materials.
Mr. Morrell here asked Mr. Hartley if he did not think that
it had been the fault of our ancestors in building the docks, to
look to the moment instead of the future?
Mr. Hartley replied, not in all the docks, but in some instances.
Mr. Morrell said, that if merchants were left to themselves,
without any controlling power, they might be induced to look
more to the present moment for accommodation than to the future
lasting of the docks. He had heard great stress laid upon the
various frauds in the Dock Estate previous to the appointment
of the rate-payers to the Committee, but he did not perceive
there was any check now provided. During six years lie hail
been in the Dock Committee, neither he nor his colleagues had
ever measured a piece of stone or weighed a piece of iron, but
it had been left to servants, in whom they paced the utmost
confluence. With respect to the audit commissioners, they in-
spected the accounts, and one of the body read aloud the bills
and the sums which the articles cost.
Cross-examined by the 'rown-clerk.—ls aware of the pro-
ceedings which led to the act of 1825. Mr. Lace was the pro-
fessional adviser of the estate. Was not a party to any of the
propositions made to old housekeepers relative to the constitu-
tion of the committee. Does not know of any detriment arising
to the estate from the constitution of the committee. Does not
recollect an application to Parliament, in 182'2, for a bill.
Mr. Hartley examined by Mr. Duncan.—There are four
'graving docks in progress; they have been in progress about
two years; they are building of granite, but the Runcorn stone
is confined to one graving dock ; the working of granite takes a
longer time than Runcorn stone.
Mr. Bolton here read a list of the Corporation, giving the
names, relationship, and connection of each corporate offiver
with another, after which the court adjourned until ten o'clock
this day.