The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-29 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

. .
had since taken place that could tend to alter that opinion ?
The state of the country was in every respect worse—the
labouring classes were in a worse Condition than at that period
—the distress of every class had been much augmented, and the
Governirient was surrounded with the difficulties, the compli-
. rated difficulties, arising out of the expenditure attendant upon
the wars in which the country had been engaged. It was use-
less to deny the fact, for time proved it. He might be asked if
he intended toehold out the language of despair ? Far from it.
What he meant to contend for was, that it was only by a more
equal distribution of the burdens of taxation that the country
could get through the mass of difficulties by which it was over-
whehned. He should, according to his promise, abstain from
entering into details of the distress which prevailed throughout
the country; but he should, nevertheless, state one or two facts,
from some'l'arliamentary returns, which would of themselves
show the pressuie upon the labouring classes asociety, It ap-
peared from these returns that the poor-rates in the last year
had increased to the extent of £314,374 beyond what they were
in the preceding, year; and this, be' it remembered, after a
most abundant harvest, with cheap provisions, and the value
of money continually augmenting. He would ask all those
who were acquainted with the state of the agriculturists, and of
the manufacturers, and also of the other interests of the country,
whether it was not a fact that the condition of the people was in
a constant course of retrogression? There-had been last year
an increase of four per cent. in the poor-rates throughout the
country. - There had been only three counties in which there
had not been an increase, which clearly showed that the
distress was general. The counties in which there had been
no increase were Bedford, Cornwall, and Westmoreland.
In Somerset, Surrey, and Sussex, there had been an increase
to these rates of between seven and eight per cent. There had
been a decrease in the rates of Carriarvon, but there had been
an increase of- nine per cent. in Cardigan, and of 11 per cent.
in Glamorganshire. In addition to this, he would advert to the
great increase of crime which had taken place since the year
1825, and this was a strong proof of his position, for crime was
the invariable consequence of great poverty. The number of
commitments were, in the year
1825 . . . . . . 14,437
1826 . . . . . . 16,164
1827 . . . . . . 17,904
1828 . . . . ' . . 16,504
1829 . . . . . . 18,675
1830 • • • . . . 18,107
1831 . . . . . . 19,047
1832 . • . . . 20,829
so that within the last seven years there had been an increase
in crime to the.amount of 50 per cent. He founcralso, by a re-
ference to the returns from the Savings' Banks, which were the
true criterion of the comfort or poverty of the people, that
there had been paid into those banks in the year 1822,
£761,368, while there had been sold out £1,261,118. Such state-
ments as these were not to be overturned by any individual
statements as to comparative prosperity of particular districts.
The honourable gentleman then went into a lengthened state-
ment of the effects of taxation generally, amd quoted Dr. Adam
Smith as being favourable to a
.property tax as the fairest of all
imposts, and concluded by moving, "That a Select Conimittee
be appointed to consider and revise our existing taxation, with
a view to the repeal of those burdens which pressed most hea-
vily upon productive industry, and to substitute an equitable
tax upon property in lieu thereof."
Mr. WARBURTON said that the hon. member for Worcester
did not perhaps imagine, after the observations he had made,
that lie (Mr. W.) would rise to .second his motion. The motion
to which he had objected was a motion for a Committee, which,
if agreed to, ought to have all the petitions of the Session re-
ferred to it. The present motion was pot liable to such an ob-
jection, and therefore it was that he rose to second it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHECICER said that he had not
the least intention to accuse the hon. member who brought for-
ward the motion of any wish or intention to embarrass his Ma-
jesty's Government. He would not object to the motion, be-
cause it left to a Committee a duty generally imposed upon the
Government. If the lion. member chose to save him (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) the trouble of proposing a finan-
cial statement, he should be the last man to object to it. The
hon. member seemed to think that it was the duty of persons
holding his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's) office not to
tell the entire truth as to the state of the country. 1\ ow he
thought that nothing was so absurd as for a minister to get up
in the house and talk of prosperity, when he did not think that
that prosperity existed; but it was his duty, upon every princi-
ple of good policy, to tell the truth; but, on the other hand, he
was not to say that more distress existed than' really did. It
was much better that, upon every topic, every gentleman should
say what he really thought. The hon. member had alluded to
a motion which he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had
made in 1830, and to what he had said on that occasion. The
motion was to consider of a revision of taxation, and did not ap-
ply itself to a property tax at all. He was ready to admit that
he did then use the expression which the hon. gentleman had
imputed to him, that though he had been opposed to a property
tax in 1816, experience had since made him think it might be
adopted. He stated it then as a change of opinion which ex-
perience had brought upon him, He had had a great deal of
experience since, and if he differed from the opinions of 1830,
he could not be accused of improper inconsistency. Ile had
proved the sincerity of his opinions by his first financial state-
ment. The experience he had had taught him, that it was easy
to induce the house to take off a tax, but that it was extremely
difficult to induce the house to impose a tax for that which was
takeu off. The hon. gent. had brought forward a proposition of a
large reduction of taxes—namely, fifteen millions. Prom what
he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) recollected of the produce
of the taxes, he should say that that proposition was a reduction
to the amount of seventeen millions. The property tax, in '
1816, produced fourteen millions and a half. NVe must look to
the sources from Which it was really derived: Let us look at
the value of money at the time the tax produced fourteen
millions and a half, and we should come to the' conclusion that ;
an income tax of ten per cent. would not produce so much as a
property tax in 1816. In nominal amount it would produce ;
more, but in reality less. The hon. member would have a
graduated property tax. He proposed that every man should
pay according to the advantatages.he enjoyed. This would ;
be to declare what income a man was to have. To lay a
greater tax upon £20,000 than upon £2OO would be to say thaf
the man who had £20,000 a-year had too much property. Carry
this principle to its full extent, and you would come directly to
the equalization of all property. He did not mean to say that
you might not go to a certain extent—he merely meaaits,to say ;
that he did not think that it was desirable, at the present time,
for the House of Commons to undertake the commutation of
taxes with the view that it, was proposed. The commutation of
one of the taxes had been advantageous;—he meant commuting
the tax on printed calicoes, and placing it upon raw materials.
He could not consent to the motion which the hon. gentleman
brought forward. He should be throwing upon a Committee
of the house a duty properly imposed upon himself. It was his
duty to consider how far taxes could he repealed so as to be
advantageous, and that was one of the objects to which he
applied -himself. He felt it to be his duty to give the question
the most serious consideration.
• COBBETT would vote for the motion of the hon. member
for Worcester, not because he thought a graduated property
tax just, but because he thought it right to ged rid of the whole
of the present system of taxation.
Mr. linsiE congratulated the hon. member for Worcester
upon the change of opinions which had taken place an his
mind. Ilo*agreed with those hon. members who said that
taxes ought to be reduced, and, most of all, those taxes which
pressed most heavily upon the working and industrious classes
of society. He was glad that the hon. member had brought
forward this motion, and he felt still more pleased at having
heard the opinions expressed by the noble lord opposite upon
it; but above all, be felt gratified at -finding that there was to
be some inquiry. into the subject. . That such an inquiry would
take -place .he sincerely hoped, and he trusted that the noble
lord opposite, and those friends about him, would act upon the
principles laid down by him, and enter into it as speedily and
as extensivy as possible. (Loud cries of " Hear, hear.")
Colonel Tonaaas thought it the duty of a reformed Ilouse
of Commons to relieve the people from the pressure of taxation,
and this, in the present state of affairs, could- only be done by
withdrawing those taxes which'pressed most immediately ripon
the labour and industry of the country, and placing them upon
fixed pod immovable property. (Hear, hear.) Unless this
yeas done—unless' justice was done, as far it could be 'done, in
that house, it would be attempted to be done elsewhere, and
-that under circumstances which he feared to contemplate.
(Hear.)
Mr. P. TnoresoN said that he felt called upon to make -a few
observatiens. The hon. member proposed a change that would
have the effect of reducing seventeen millions of taxes, and he
had not submitted to their consideration any definite substitute
by which the deficiency in the national revenue could be sup.,
plied. This be Conceived would be in itself a sufficient ground
for his opposition to the motion. But there were two other
grounds on which he rested. The first was, that he did. not
consider it advisable that a question, of principle should be
referred to a committee; such questions beloilgcal of right to
the whole- house. He would say, let the question of a property
tax be fairly discussed and debated in the house, and let the
gentleman who came to introduce it be ready to lay before
them some specific plan, by which this property or income tax
might, if approved of, be carried into effect; and let him not
.
content himself with alluding to a substitute for existing taxes,
without pretending to be able to teach his Majesty's govern-

' ment what the nature of this substitute might be. The second
ground-for his opposition was, that they were not then in the
. same condition as when he brought forward his Motion two
years ago, for his Majesty's government had since then repealed
several taxes. (llear, hear.) The whole amount of taxes
repealed since the war was 1:34,137,000. In this was included
the property tax, amounting to X 14,00,000. Now, since the
year 1819-1820, the taxes repealed pressing upon articles of
consumption in the use of the lower clasSes, or upon articles
which were the raw material of our manufactures, and, con-
sequCntly, taxes, which offered the greatest impediments to
industry, amounted to £16,864;000; and taxes had been.taken
off wholly, or in part, from the folloiving articles :--=barilla,
hemp, malt, salt, drugs. tobacco, silk, soap, windows, beer-duty,
leather, coals, slates, candles? and printed-calicoes. He wished
that gentlemen would consider this when they called for a
reduction of taxation to the amount of four millions and a half,
and remember the engagements of the country. It was vain
too for honourable gentlemen to urge the impatience '.-of their
constituents. He telt perfectly assured that no constituency
would wish any thing done by which the public credit was com-
promised, for they must know that upon public credit was
founded the present prosperity and future hopes of this empire.
No desire, therefore, he was convinced, of relievingtheniselves
from taxation, would induce them to wish the public credit to
be tampered with in the least degree. The House of Commons, '
they would recollect, had only fourteen millions to deal with.
The rest of our expenditure was devoted to the discharge of our
engagements. The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by de-
claring that the faith, honour, and prosperity of the country
depended upon public tredit.
Mr. HARVEY, after some preliminary observations, in which
he remarked that the subject under discussion naturally must
be a disagreeable one to the House, as it directly affected the
interests of the greater number of its Members, proceeded to
contend that the Right
,Hon.. Gentleman's speech had not been
directed to the
.main. question, which was the expediency of a
property tax, but rather to a number of details that had no very
close connection with it. The Right Hon. Gentleman com-
plained that the Hon. Gentleman near him had not explained
his plan for introducing a property tax; but such an explana-
tion was not in the least necessary. Besides, what a cry would
there not have been raised about public credit, and good faith,
and so forth, if the hon. Member had proposed the reduction of
sixteen millions of taxation, without suggesting some substi-
tute; and,- in his mind, the only substitute was a property tax.
The vice of our legislation, was, that it always came too late.
The remedy that would once-have been a specific was deferred
until it became powerles from the increase of the disease. They
legislated in the dark, as it were, and to meet adventitious cir-
cumstances. Now, however; he trusted they might he, for
once, induced to legislate when they had only to meet contin-
gencies that were floating before them, but that, if neglected,
would soon be at the treshold of the House;
Mr. PEASE' thought that a very valuable and desirable com-
mutation might be made in the taxation of the country, and he
was anxious -for the appointment of a committee, because it
might, by divulging the mutual views of the members, prepare
the house for the consideration of the Budget, with much better
effect than they could now approach that subject. There were
many circumstances in the distribution of taxation which
bore unnessariiy. hard upon the industrious clasies. There was
a partiality and inequality in the taxation which called loudly
for a remedy. Tiie post-horse duty,
,for instance, pressed very
severely upon the poor man, who was obliged to pay as much
for 14 nays as the rich man for a whole year. The tax upon
bricks also was .a very oppressive one. The collection of a
property tax, which he looked upon as being very different from
an income tax, would not be so expensive as the collection of
the present taxes, and on that account also he considered it
would' be a good substitute. In a moral point of view the pre-
sent system of taxation was very objectionable, because it
created various offences which were not known to the divine
law. Hehoped the house would agree to a Committee. (Ques-
tion.)
After a few words from Mr. ROBINSON in reply, the- house
divided, and the numbers were :-
1" or Mr. Robinson's motion
A gaiust it .
Majorityagainit the motion . . .
Mr. O'CoNNELL obtained leave to bring in a bill to repeal so
much of the act. 34 George 111., chap. 8, as imposes fines on
masters of vessels lying in the river Liffey for having fires. on
board.

Mr. KENNEDY obtained leave to bring in three bills relating
o the Scotch law of entail. .

Lord ALTISORP stated that it was his intention to press the
bringing up of the report of the Irish Disturbances Bill on
this evening, and hehoped hon. members would allow it to take
precedence of the other business.

r- -
The report of supply was brought up and agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
house' adjourned at a quarter past two o'clock.

DINNER TO 11111._LYALL,..M.P.

On Saturday last the friends of Mr. Lyall gave a dinner to
that gentleman at the City of London Tavern, which was at-
tended by several of the most intelligent and influential mer-
chants of London. Mr. Freese (on his health being drunk) re-
turned thanks iu a speech so admirable, that we cannot refrain
front making die foltowing extract:—" Sir, we arc essentially a
commercial nation; and 1 use the term in its most extensive
sense, embracing every I.,Frade and ramification, frOm the small-
est shopkeeper and the humblest water-side porter to the most
wealthy .and influential merchant upon the Royal Exchange.
A just regard to the trading interest of the empire must be hold
by our legislators as paramount to every other consideration.
To these, politics must he made subservient, and the minister
Who holds them cheap is unfit for the' station he occupies.
(Loud cheering, which lasted for some minutes.) 'The first ob-
ject of a patriotic British minister must be to nurture and ex-
tend existing branches of commerce, and to seek and cultivate
new channels for the growing enterprise, skill, and industry of
the country, which constitutes the only legitimate appropriation
and employment of an otherwise redundant population. He
must studiously avoid being entangled in the labyrinth of con-
tinental politics (hear, hear,) and be protif against the wily arts
of foreign diplomatists. To what but to their commerce did, in
ancient times, Tyre and her illustrious offspring, Carthage, owe
their weaith and power? To what the splendid republics of
Venice and Genoa? To what Britain, and her no less illus-
trious ofd's Wing, the United States? To what but to their com-
merce? . (Cheers.) And to what, I will ask, can the downfall
of the- former states be ascribed but to a disregard of their com-
mercial interests and a lust for political interference in the af-
fairs of other states. (Long continued cheering.) Was it an
envy of their wealth which doomed them to destruction ? No ;
a dread Of their ambition. It was this that eitiacted from the
elder Cato the memorable anathema "Delonda est Carthago:)!
It was this that led to the extinction of that once powerful
and magnificent city—it was this which ruined the Italian re-
publics. May we then lay up the treasures of experience,
and avoid those rocks upon which other commercial • states
have shipwrecked their fortunes! (Cheers.) And let it not
be supposed, sir, that the interests of commerce are inimical
to those of agriculture, for there cannot be a greater fallacy.
They are as it were twin sisters, sensitively sympathising iu ail
that affects either—the streams of commerce fertilizing the
pregnant fields ,of agriculture and without their mutual action
those stream would dry up, that soil be barren and unproduc-
tive. They are parts of the same body,- and, unless the health-
ful blood circulate equally through the whole system, it must
concentrate at particular points, and the whole frame becomes
mortally diseased. To use a metaphor in illustration of the
mutual dependence of one interest upon another, and the har-
mony of the whole, agriculture may be termined the foundation
of commerce; colonies, fisherieS, and manufactures its pillars;
navigation its wings; and whenever any of these constituent
parts be injured, the whole structure will be deformed and in-
secure. (Hear, hear.) Feeling thus, sir, the importance of
protection to all those interests, we naturally looked out for a
representative every way qualified to protect theirs, and we
found one in Mr. Lyall (cheers)—one whose intimate know-
ledge'of the general principles and experience in the details of
trade would make his opinions upon every commercial subject
respected—one whose judgment would not be captivated by
every jack-i'-th'-lantern project of the political economists
(immense cheering)—whose mind would not be misled by
every: will-o'-th'-wisp that shoWed itself in the political hori-
zon—a gentleman, sirovhose knowledge, moderation, and good
sense would insure weight to his sentiments, whether expressed
in de:Ate, or in the no less important business of the com-
mittees."

SQUIBS mom THE CABINET.—" IS it possible, (said Stanley
to Lord Althorp at the Council the other day,) that your Lord-
ship does not remember the circumstance to which I. allude ?"
" I really (answered ihe Chancellor' of the Exchequer) cannot
tax my memory." "If you did tax your memory (interrupted
the Irish Secretary,) I presume the duty liknild 'be paid on the
collection of your Lurdship's ideas ?" " Not quite so (said the
voice froti the Woolsack,) it being laid on the memory, the
duty would be required in the re-collection."—Pretty mode this
of debating ori the affairs of the nation' in secret conclave—no
wonder the Councils last some
A member of -the Athenaeum, asking J. W. C., "how 'Lord
Ashley progressed with ' Sadler's Bill in the House ?" " Oh!
(said the wit) the Bill is pursuing the 'even ten-ho.ur of its
way,' as the poet says."—Age..

ABSTRACT OF THE FACTORIES' LABOUR BILL.

The preamble states that it has become necessary to regulate
the hours of labour in mills and factories, " Inasmuch as
the practice in such places to employ a great dumber of chil-
dren, and young persons of both sexes an unreasonable length
of time, and te..te at night, and in many instances all night, to
the great and manifest injury of the health and morals of such
children and young persons."
The first clause protects persons under 21 from night work, •
or from labouring between seven in the evening and six in the
morning.

Permins under 18 shall not be employed in labour more than
ten hours a day, or than eight on a Saturday. Those hours
to be twelve and ten respectively : meal times included.
The hours of meals to be one and the same'for all children
and young persons engaged in the same factory.. .
The hours of labour may be varied under certain circum;
stances, as to their commencement and termination,- but not as.
to their length.
Time alleged to be lost in . consequence of impediments in
the machinery not. to be made up by the young operatives. .
No children under nine years of age to be employed.
Nona of the young persons to be detained on Sundays in
cleaning the machinery.
The walls and ceilings of the working rooms to be white-
washed at least once a year; unless where they have been
painted.
In'the future erection of factories it shall be provided that
none of the working rooms shall be less than ten feet. in boight.
In enforcing the penalties and provisionsthege 'clauses, no'
Justices of Peace' interested in factory property are to act.
The regulations of this act to be hung up in the mills, and.
time books to be kept, with heaVy penalties for false entries.
That time of labour to be regulated not by the." speed
clocks" which are usually attached to the machinery, but by.
regular time pieces set by the nearest pUblie clOck.
The machinery to be fenced or boxed off; so as to preverif
accidents. Fatal accidents occurring through neglect of this
clause to be imputed as " manslaughter" to the owners
of the factory.- and where the accident may not amount
to the loss of life, but to
pecuniarycompemmtion for the sufferer.
The remainder of the bill relates principally to penalties-for
Working engines at improper hours, the mode of recovering
penalties, and some
.other minor details. Towards. the con-
clusion there is a clause sanctioning a certain protraction of
the time and laboiir for the first six months after the passing of
the act, for the express purpose of it.„t, bearing hard .on the
master manufacturers by the sudden limitation of the daily
labour.

The new enactment, it is proposed, shall come into force
from and after. the Ist of July next.

TURN-OUT COTTON SpisNErts...--ln consequence of some dis-
pute about wages, eighteen of the spinners in the employ of
Messrs. Beaver and Company, Chepstow-street, Oxford-road,
left their .einrittiVinent on Tuesday week, and were replaced by
others who gladly accepted work on the terns proposed to them.
On Friday and Saturday last, the street in filont of the mill was
paraded by a number of men, amongst whom were the turn-outs,
and every person going to or from the mill was hooted find an-
noyed in such a way, that the new hands were obliged to be es=-
corted to and from their work. • On 'Friday last an overlooker
named Drinkwatcr, and three other men, were employed-in es-
corting four of the' new spinners to the factory, when.they were
assailed by a volley of stones and other missiles, and it was. with
the utmost difficulty they effected an entrance into the building.
Shortly after wards Driukwater - and a man named-- Howarth
came out of the factory, when they were again assaulted and.
most violently beaten, but at length made their escape into the
Peveril of the Peak public house. A man named Bolim-appear-
ed to be the leader in the outrage, and three others named
But-
terworth, Partington, and Mari:land, were 'also 'recognized.
amongst the mob; a warrant was accordingly taken out against.
them, and the latter three were brought up ter examination -be-
fore the magistrates at the New Bailey, on Monday.. From
the evacuee of the witnesses it appeared, that Bollin (who was
not in custody) was the only man who could be identified as
having assaulted Drinkwater, and as the information. -ivds mere-
ly for a common assault, the case against the three others was
dismissed; an information, however, was immediately laid
against them under the statute for conspiracy, and they will be
again brought up to answer the charge. When the case was
disposed of; Mr. Beaver applied to the magistrates for au addi-
tional constabulary force to protect his spinners, several of whcrm
he said had been obliged to live in the mill ever since the turn-
out, not, daring?-to leave it for a moment. He said lie was de-
termined to ahord the men protection; if possible, even-if it cost
him 1:50',/, for he could obtain any nutaber of spinners at the
price he was paying; if 'the turn-outsWthild let them work. The
magistrates directed him to apply to the constables of fhe
town-
ship, and if it was found that they could not furnish a SUfficient
force, upon the regular affidavit of that fact being made, they
would swear in a body of special constables for the occasion.--
Manchester Herald.