The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-01-30 00:00:00

Jan. 30,

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would make some £87,000. The result of the whole
would be, instead of having a surplus, there would he a
deficiency of more than£so,ooo a year. Now, what would
Ibe the consequence of that? The real interests of the
dock estate, and the community here, were so far from
agreeing with the Chairman of the Dock Committee that
rival docks ought not to be prevented, that they thought
we ought to have the risk of providing dock accommoda-
tion tor those who require it. He was of opinion that it
they went on as they were now going on the), would be
enabled either to pay off their debt or to reduce their
rates ; but if they got into a deficiency, in place of a sur-
plus, they would be in a groove, and must raise their
rates, because they could not, like an individual, put up
with the loss. This would be most mischievous to the
dock estate at a period when they ought to be in a position
to lower their rases, in order to compete with those on the
other side of the water, who were offering 100 per cent. re-
duction of dockage. In place of reduction they would posi-
tively have to raise their rates. There was no escaping that.
They had heard of the increase of trade, arid some wonder-
ful good wishes had been uttered towards those over the
water; but where was the increase to go? It all entered
the estuary of the Mersey, and would not those on the
other side not only get it, but nibble away part of that
which they never had on this side the water. The chair-
man of the Dock Committee could not have had so much
experience as he (Mr. Evans) had had, from the number
of years he had been engaged in the trade of the port,
and also in the United States, or he would not have said
that vessels would go over to the other side of the river
to discharge, and then come to this side to take in their
cargoes. If they could discharge on the other side of the
river why not load there, and that they would do, as for
one vessel which went out with a general cargo, there
were one-hundred which went out in ballast, or with
coals, salt, crates, iron, and such things as these—articles
which could be deposited anywhere. It was always a
good thing to give a homely illustration to an argument,
and that might he done very easily. It was said one side
of Bold-street was preferred to the other, and it was true
that one side was not so much frequented as the other ;
but, he would ask, were there not shops on the other
side?i So with the other side of the water—if you give
Ithem docks, and quays, and warehouses, they would have
trade just in the same manner as there were shops on
both sides of Bold-street. (Laughter.) But it was said
there were no railways on the other side of the water. He
however contended that the other side in this respect
possessed equal advantages to this side, and there were
greater and cheaper facilities for passing goods up the
country. It was therefore evident that vessels would go
to the other side, discharge, and get away with greater
facilities than on this side. There had been calculations
about getting stone and other matters at the north, but it
was said they would have to go beyond the proposed
docks. He admitted that there would be advantages in
that respect, but there was no question that there
would be no necessity for going beyond the foundation
of the dock for all the stone which would be required.
(Hear, hear.) Among other arguments for the in-
crease of the timber trade, alteration of the tariff had been
mentioned, but that did not afford to Liverpool advantages
which were not possessed by other ports ; and when gen-
tlemen told them that unless they could have a reduction
of two thirds in the expense of dock accommodation, they
would remain on this side, he looked at it something in
the same way as the celebrated Canute did at the sea;
for a person who would pursue such a system and not
yield to the natural course of things must be destroyed.
Mr. Charles Challoner had observed that we should not
lose our trade, but that they would have a trade of their
own over the water, and after that he observed we should
lose nothing of importance. He might consider by the
word importance that they would take the increase of the
trade, but when they came to look at the advantages to
be derived from cheapness, if it amounted to only one
farthing per foot, no one would be able to contend against
it. As to the evidence of Mr. E. Challoner, that was most
decided. He said if another dock were made, and the
present system pursued, so soon as there were facilities
offered he would remove his establishment to the other
side of the water. But there was no necessity for that. I
They could discharge their vessels on that side, and there
would be yard keepers and others, so that the timber could
at once be taken into the country by railways and other
means. lie was not one to deny the value of the timber
trade or any other branch of trade in the town. On the con-
trary, he was of opinion that all hung together, and were
dependent on each other just like warp and weft; but
when gentlemen spoke of an increase in the trade of the
town, they spoke of the increase over the last year instead
of looking what it was over former years. They all ad-
mitted, however, that the Brunswick Dock would be quite
sufficient if left to itself for the whole of the timber trade,
therefore they ought to pause before they attempted to
provide anything more for that particular trade, where-
as they were going to make a dock at the south
end, with the western quay useless, in order to make
the eastern quay valuable for the timber trade, and
it was proposed to remove the timber trade out
of the Brunswick Dock. If they did that, it was
not accommodating the timber trade at all, but the
general trade of the port, and then came the question of
north and south again. But whatever the council might
think of the new dock, the gentlemen in the timber
trade thought differently. They wanted a waste dock.
Did the council think they would leave the fair field they
now occupied "to batten on the moor ?" The Bruns-
wick
Dock was now opposite their yards in a most con-
venient position, and they would not leave it. As to the
expense of it, that was estimated at £250,000, but he had
no doubt it would be much nearer the mark at £400,000,
and they could not have a dock exclusively for the timber
the income of which would pay the expenses of construct-
ing and keeping it in repair. If they went to parliament
for the proposed measure with a threat hanging over their
beads of being made to pay £40,000 a-year for clearing
the mud out of the docks, together with the enormous
expense he had mentioned, they had certainly more nerve
than he had. They had heard from the chairman that
Plunkington Bank was a protection ; but according to the
evidence of the Harbour-master, (which he said he was
prepared to prove,) it was an impediment to the docking
of ships so great as to make a difference of an hour and
a half. When that bank became a protection it must be
dry, and of course of no use for navigable purposes.
Those, therefore, who said it was a protection had not,
certainly, got into deep water, but were aground. (Laugh.
ter.) He could not conclude without observing, that if
the proposed measures were consummated, it would in-
volve the Dock Estate to such an extent, that it would be-
come the prey of the other side of the water. If it was
carried out they would be depriving themselves of the ad-
vantages of dock warehouses, which he had no doubt
would one day or other be the only remediable means of
saving the port from ruin. (Laughter,) They would
not be able to place them on the dock quays with ad-
vantage, because these quays would be already mort-
gaged, and they would add to the security of the
mortgagee, without being able to raise more on them. As
t,) those who cried out, that by building warehouses they
were raising a great monopoly, it might be sufficient to
observe, that if a public body did that which was for the
advantage of the public generally, and not for a few indi-
viduals, it would be no monopoly ; but if they handed
over the power to erect warehouses on the dock quays to
a few individuals, that would be creating a monopoly.
After a few observations respecting the mode of managing 1
the docks in London, Mr. Evans resumed his seat.

afforded by the Albert Dock, all demands would be met,
or, at all events, that it would act as a luncheon to stay
the appetite of the port for the next two or three years;
but the worthy alderman seemed to have forgotten
that the dinner was necessary as well as luncheon,
and' that while he was busy in providing them with
luncheon, they must themselves take care and not
overlook the dinner. (Hear, hear.) They should recol-
lect that it would take years before the proposed plans
could be c Tried into execution, and that if they did not
look forward, irrespective of what was going on over the
Water, they should be found fault with for leaving neg-
lected the present opportunity. (Hear.) It had been said
by Mr. Aikin that there was no necessity for further dock
extension at present, provided a different mode of manage-
ment were adopted ; but he should be glad to know who
had ruled the Dock estate for the last eight or nine years,
and why had not this improved management ever been
brought into action during that time? (Hear, hear.)
Again it was said that they could gain an increased
accommodation of 10 per cent. by enclosing the ba-
sins ; but there was not a basin connected with the
docks that could, with advantage, be closed, unless it was
the Queen's; and he could show, from the evidence of
nautic .1 men, that it would be impracticable to work the
docks if oie basins were enclosed. (Hear, hear.) When
they put those facts together, and considered the probable
increase of their trade for the future—increasing and im-
proving, as he was happy to say it was at present, and
when they saw the prosuect they had of a further increase
of tonnage, and of a larger class of ships, he thought every
one would see the necessity of their going on and affording
greater accommodation. There were one or two trades pe-
culiarly connected with Liverpool, which must, and for ever
would belong to the port, and which contributed very
largely to their resources. He alluded more particularly
to the North American trade, which contributed £90,000
a year. After having stated that the inhabitants of the
town were desirous of havinr, further dock accommoda-
tion, and expressing a hope that the members generally
bad read the evidence taken before the sub-committee, he
went on to remark on the advantages and disadvantages
of the north and south ends. He confessed that in deal-
ing with the Harrington Dock purchase, his feelings at first
were opposed to the purchase, but on more mature conside-
ration, he now came before them and most conscientiously
recommended that that estate be purchased. (Hear, hear.)
He had no interest either north or south, for he held not
any land within the limits of the borough, neither did he
hold any which the docks, north or south, could in the
remotest degree affect. He thought at first there was a
prima facie case against the purchase, but now he be-
lieved he could demonstrate that the purchase would he
an advantage to the dock estate. If they got it for a fair
and reasonable price, a most important part of their work
would have been executed. He must remind the council
that a negociation had been carrying on at one time for
the purchase of a part of the Harrington estate, so far as
the elbow, which would be noticed on the plans, com-
prising about 70,000 yards, and for which it was thought
desirable to pay rather a high price. Whether it was
desirable to pay the high price for it, it was not for him to
say ; but the only value of the land was from being con-
tiguous to their own land, because it was a mere worthless
part so far as the land itself went. It might be of value
to the Dock Committee, because it would enable them to
bring into play what was a useless appendage to the
docks, and that was the Toxteth Dock, upon which
a large sum had been expended for no purpose what-
ever. If, then, they had purchased the 70,000 yards
they should have bought the worst portion. (Hear,
hear.) Now, the southern part of the estate camprised
about 760,000 feet of sea-wall, made precisely the same as
the one at Prince's pier, and would not require to be
meddled with at all ; and on the docks had been expended
the sum of £34,000. If they deducted this sum from
the gross purchase it would reduce the price of the land
to about 265. per yard. But it would be the height of
folly for them to purchase the half of the estate and to
leave the kernel of it; for he could show that the south-
ern end was the productive part, and that there were par-
ties ready to rent that who would give an immediate in•
terest for the outlay, and a profit on the interest the
Dock Committee would give to pay the money. (Hear,
hear.) He contended that they ought either to pur-
chase the whole or none. (Hear, hear.) Complaints
had been made that the docks were not carried more
inland : and on comparing the merits of the north
and south he would remind the council of the dis-
tances. And here he might show the importance
of distances, from valuable documents furnished to
the Dock Committee by Mr. Poole—documents of
great interest. They would learn from these documents
that about nine-tenths of the produce imported into Li-
verpool went south. (Hear.) Now, the distance of the
Harrington Dock estate from the railway station was 1450
yards, and the distance from the Clarence Dock to the
railway station was 2800, or as nearly double as might be.
If, then, they went to construct docks north of the Cla-
rence, the expense of conveying merchandise would be
increased. The evidence taken before the Sub-commit-
tee
ne went generally to show that dock extension was
cessary, and necessary to the south. They had im-
portant evidence on this subject, and generally, with one
or two exceptions, it was overwhelming, that increased
dock accommodation was necessary, particularly for
the timber trade ; and the timber trade was of very great
importance. It was attempted to disparage this trade as
one that did not contribute largely to the wealth of the
town ; but it contributed about £20,000 a year. The
Brunswick Dock altogether contributed about £30,000 ;
as nearly as could be calculated, the timber trade contri-
buted £20,000. But whether it paid a large or a small
sum, it was of vast importance that it thould be kept
at this side of the water; and the evidence went to show
that if they provided the trade with accommodation it
would not leave Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) If they gave
accommodation for water and quay space, it would be kept
on this side •, they had the evidence of a most intelligent
Witness to show, that not one ship in 100 would go to
Wallasey Pool. (Hear, hear.) But that some trade must
necessarily be carried on at Wallasay Pool, with a popu-
lation of 18,000, and some small population in the coun-
ty around, he was prepared to believe. There would be
sonme trade at Wallasey, but the bulk would be carried on
o
this side, if accommodation were afforded. After having
again shown the. importance of the timber trade, which be
said employed
th; 2)0,000 people, he said the cultivation of
a particular trade in Liverpool was of the utmost im-
portance. They would be convinced that a large portion
of timber must
formed that, dur" from
Liverpool, when they were in-
proportion of 33,00 d i 3
been constructeg the
last
tenyears, 500,000 houses had
neighbourhood of wGerreea t
in
enßritain,uvse nafn de r
et
eh
taitn
nai
n largethe
Liverpool. Mr. Rankin, in giving evi-
dence about the timber trade, said, that this side would
be continued to be occupied, and that he would not go
xoviesrooth.e water unless he could save £l,OOO out of every
(Hear, hear.) If this might be taken as a fair
bdiSpecimen of the feeling of the timber trade, the council
ngehtthrnitalke themselves pretty easy on that score. (Hear.)
g was certain, that the timnnbeeer
btereandetrcioeudldthneoret
be carried on at the north. It had
and was a total failure. Mr
haner was of inion
that the south end was designed Cspecially for the timber
Docks 9 all demands of the trade would be met. They
had it also in evidence that the Brunswick dock might be
turned to advantage ifuilvdiere confined exclusively to the
trade, and that one- more business might be done
there ; but then they
wouslpalicea ve
they were, and
to remove the empty
ships, which must occupy
where were they to put them ? It whereverwas
treed upon all hands
that the trade could not be divided—nev at it must be kept
never in one locality, and that it would
part over the water and part on this
side.nswer
cheers.) It was also in evidence, on to have
he(Hauetahroarintyd
of
Marine Surveyo harbour-rnastrerthat s, piherlote, e
was and
moo
re smoothly
water of the
at
the south than at, the tnorth, and that ships could be
docked there with greater facility, as the tide ran twice
as fast at the north as it did at thsouth. Flatmen pre-
ferred the south; and he had just received a letter from
M. Poole, stating that if the flats were to bring salt or
earthenware to the north, they would incur a consider-
able extra expense. (Hear.)
tales of the southern locality, alindavti ge stateddesirability
andfy at
hne-
purchase of the Harrington estate, he felt bound to allude
to some little difficulty or disadvantage belonging to it,
and that was, that in selling the estate they could not con-
fer the privilege of building warehouses with it. If they
eyes
_ have done so, it would increase its merits in his
;Y • ; butif the Dock Committee went there at all, ware-
houses would be unnecessary, as they wanted it for the
accommodation of the timber trade. However, this was
one
of the disadvantages. There was another point
Which he felt bound to state, and that was, that in the
Harrington•dock act, which might not be known to the _..ast evening, a public meeting of the Protestants of
whole of the Council, so long as that estate remained in Liverpool was held in the Commercial-hall, Gloucester-
in its present hands, and docks were constructed there, street, to receive the Rev. T. D. Gregg, from Dublin,
and in case of the receipts of the Liverpool docks falling
short, the Harrington estate would be mortgaged to make and several deputations of loyal Orangemen from other
good any *deficiency. This would be considered as an towns. The large room, capable of accommodating up-
additional security to the bondholders ; for, in case of a wards of 2500 persons, was owned almost to suffocation ;
falling off, they could claim the whole of the receipts of and amongst those on the platform we observed the Rev.
the Harrington Dock estate to make up the deficiency.
,W. Irvine, Rev. S. Crag, Rev. S. Fenton, R. Harbors,This would have its weight ; but it was only fair
bpon his part to state it in case it was not known by Esq., J. Parker, Esq., T. Inman, Esq., G. Clay, Esq.,
every one. A great mistake had been committed in al- Dr. Taylor, Slaiter, deputation ; Dr. Gouthwaite,
lowing private docks to be constructed at all ; but so long Jackson, Esq., Ball, A. Byford, J. Payne, —Watham,
Price
as they could obtain the estate at a fair and reasonable E. D. Tuton, H. Bentley, S. Wilson, J. Harrison, W.
,it was their duty to become its proprietors, to attach Wagstaff, Capt. Easton, and J. Wilkinson.
It to the general estate, and to do away with the rivalry, The room was very tastefully decorated with orange
..19r, in his opinion, the dock estate ought not to have any and purple, and a sort of canopy formed over the platform.
1, e
;Valry in Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) He then alluded to Immediately in front of the chairman the Bible and crown
north end, which he said was much exposed to the was placed, and behind it, in varigated gaslights, the
north-west wind ; but still accommodation was wanted letters V. R. On the rev. entleman a there, and traffic would ppearing in the
ould increase g when a communica- room he was received with loud and long-continued ap-
Urns was opened with the Leeds and Liverpool Canal. plause and the Kentish fire.
(Hear, hear,) It hal beensaid by Mr. Bullet', that Shortly after half-past six o'clock, Mr. Councillor Har-
tle should be soofrryh to be abo ndholder; if those se- board took the chair, and on doing. so requested the meet-
out ; but it mi h t e Dock Committee were carried ing to be as orderly as they conveniently could, considering
others
the Dockto ie o w tthabtvve, satisfactory to Mr. Bulley and the crowded state of the room.
Committeegniuindcahrervyei,n out those matters, The Rev. W. IRVINE was then called upon, and he
according to the testis offered up a suitable prayer.
propose the first
onfiteallothfettbvreepnalsdtbyear, sufficient funds to meet the interest Mr. Councillor PARKER then rose to
diet that l be required, and he would venture to re- resolution, and was received with very loud demonstrations
into 0 lop before the proposed docks should have came of applause. He had been requested to move the resolu-
to peration
surplus _ north or south, they would have a very large tion he held in his hands, and he had great pleasure in
farther (Hear, hear.) Mr. Moore proceeded at much doing so. It began as every resolution ought to be which
th , length, and, in the course of his remarks, stated was connected with Protestantism, namely, that the prin.
asst2e Was not so fearful of the Wallasey Dock project ciples of the Established Church, if fully carried out,
many of the public seemed to be.
'l"4r. NI cot, cot, seconded the motion. This should be the basis of all their actions. It was a
would remove the evils the community now labours under.
Ev,
showed Ns said that the calculation which he had, glorious sight for both him and them to see such a meeting
naati,_ the expenses
that in what they had heard from the chair- of sound and loyal Protestants, because they had lately
alto-:,1,1 expenses of maintenance and repairs had been seen the town, from ward to ward, deluged with the
xisr.toercleft out of view. minions of the Anti-Corn-Law League a few such ;_. oe.—No, no there they are upon the paper. assemblages as these would show such enemies of the
x 13900 The interest upon the dock debt at pre- church that their efforts would be unavailing.
Sent x 139 000
B ' true their cry was cheap bread, but they cared little about
Evaßamutv-11loor.E.—How do you make that out, the oeor—they sympathised little with those who were ip
Mr, ? distress ; their language was " down with the church.
It was
(Laughter. The interest and expenses I mean. (Hear, hear.) But it would soon be seen that the opera-
pairs,
and Now, the cost of salaries, wages, of re- tions of the whole community were truly Protestant. He
tand heregeneral expenses, was about £77,662 ; then congratulated them on having now established in the
itnsthgeeinterest of the money upon the Albert Dock ! schools of the town a sound Scriptural education ; and he
warehouses, which, together with the new docks, trusted, having now obtained that, they would not relax

Mr. ASPINALL moved that the debate be adjourned till
eleven o'clock to-morrow.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE seconded the motion.
The MAYOR put the question, and it was carried.

Mr. BLACKBURN prayed fora longer adjournment.
The evidence laid before the council occupied 468 pagas,
and it was impossible it could be read and considered in
so short a time.

Mr. AIKIN said he would second Mr. Blackburn's
amendment for further time.
The MAYOR.--The motion was put and adopted before
Mr. Blackburn made his.
Mr. BIRKETT said, if Mr. Blackburn really wished for
further time, why bad he not made his motion at the com-
mencement of the debate.
Mr. D. HODGSON also thought the motion ought to
have been made at the commencement of the debate, as
it would be exceedingly inconvenient to postpone the de-
bate now, after it had been half got through.
The MAYOR decided that the original motion was
adopted before Mr. Blackburn spoke at all, and the coun-
cil adjourned at ten minutes past three.

GREAT PROTESTANT DEMONSTRATION.