The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-04-03 00:00:00

of general education, concluded by saving, they bad now the
power of acting free from fear-:free from any compulsion ;
there was no fear of foreign war before them, nor of civil ,war
in Ireland. It was in their power at length to settle and gain
the affections of that country, to silence the question of the re-
peal of the union, to gain, the tribute of grateful homage from
a people so warm-hearted, so eminently brave, so panting to
be loyal; while they would have the satisfaction of reflecting
that in doing justice tolrelaiid they had contribthed more than
by any other measure they could adopt to the future credit and
prosperity of the empire, making tier unconquerable by her
enemies, and the example of liberality to the rest of the world.
(Cheers.) .
The question having been put : ,
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL could not but complain that up
to the time he entered the house he was altogether ignorant of
the ssuurse the noble lord intended to pursue on a subject so iin-
porthut, and he must say such a course was very disadvanta-
geous, inconvenient, and highly objectionable. He might move
the previous question or a counter resolution, but he preferred
the more open and manly way of meeting it by a direct nega-
tive, and trusted that when the house hadheard some arguments
which he had to adduce they would be induced to concur with
him. He would take the liberty of asking what was the precise
nature and scope of the motion'? Was it the settlement of
the question which it professed, or was it not brought forward
to try the relative strength of parties in that house ? In his
judgment the removal of ministers was the real object of the
motion, and therefore a motion to the effect that the house had
no confidence in them would have been a more consistent and
straightforward proceeding than the attempt to do by indirect
means that which he had not the boldness to undertake openly.
To the noble lord's proposition he must withhold his consent,
because lie was not prepared to give his assent to the applica-
tion of church property to other than protestant church pur-
poses. By this he would stand or fall. The noble lord might
talk as long as he pleased, (hear, hear,) he might refer to
ancient history, tell them of proceedings that had taken place,
and proceedings that he anticipated, but the gist and effect of
the proposition was this, and nothing more—" I desire to take
from the property of the church of Ireland, which had nothing
more than she required, and give it to the rival catholic esta-
blishment." (Hear, hear.) The noble lord had charged
ministers with a violation of the same principle because they
were favourable to a re-distribution of church property. Was
there no difference between promoting the original intention of
the founders of the established church and alienating its pro-
perty to purposes quite contrary to that intention, the aggran-
disement of the Roman catholic church ? On that point rested
the whole question. He regretted that a question involving so
much religious feeling should have been mixed up with political
and party animosity. He (Sir E. Knatchbull) was placed much
in the same situation as the noble lord was last year, when Mr.
Ward bronglit forward the same question, and when Mr. O'Con-
nell brought forward a resolution to ,the same effect as that of
the noble lord. On that occasion the noble lord opposed the
motion of Mr. Ward, and the argument of the noble lord. on
that occasion he (Sir E. Knatchbull) might now use. The no-
ble lord had then said "Two courses had been propesed—the
first was to pass a resolution containing a. general opinion on
two or three matters of fact and ending by calling on the house
to affirm some abstract principles." The noble lord knew not
whether there would in fact, be any surplus revenue after pro-
viding for the wants of the protestant establishment; certainly
he was ignorant of the fact last year, for he had suggested a
commission of inquiry for the purpose Of ascertaining it. Was
he to understand that the commission issued by the crown and
sent to Ireland. had made their report to the, noble lord ? If that
were not the fact the noble lord had no better ground to rest
upon than he had last year. But the noble lord went on to
say, "The other course proposed was to have a commission of
inquiry; that was, that it was competent to parliament to
deal with the subject, and reserving to the next session the
practical measure to be proposed for remedying the abuses
of the Irish church. The first course suggested appeared to
him a very bad one, and oue which he entirely dissented from.
It would lie exceedingly imprudent, he Abought, in the present
state of things, to adopt a general resolution affirming an ab-
stract principle—(hear, hear,)—instead of proceeding to a prac-
tical measure." (Cheers.) On that occasion Mr. Spring Rice,
in supporting the noble lord's views, asked whether the house
was prepared to adopt the Irish mode of legislating first and in-
quiring afterwards ? (Cheers and laughter.) He hoped that
those reasons, so conclusive to the noble lord and his colleagues
when in office, would in the exercise of that liberality to
which some persons thought themselves so exclusively entitled,
induce him (Lord John Russell) to act on the principles he had
before advocated, and concur with hini (Sir Edward Knatch-
bull) in opposing the present resolution. (Loud cheering.)
What the result of the motion might be it was not for him (Sir
E. K.!) to prejudge ; but this he knew, that they (the minis(ers)
would do their duty to the crown and the public on those prin-
ciples se clearly and so unequivocally declared by his right,honl
friend Sir Robert Peel, and he should wait with perfect confi-
dence the. decision of the house on that subject. But he implored
the house to consider what was to follow if they adopted this
proposition. The noble lord desired the formation of a, new
government (Cheers and counter cheers.) Of whom was it,
he would ask, to be composed ? (Hear, hear.) Was it to be
headed by the noble earl (Grey) who had lately been the Prime
Minister of England ? (Hear, hear.) And would his admi-
nistration include all the talent and character which originally
belonged to it ? (Hear, bear.) He would: llPtt say. anything
against the entertainment of such a legitimate object: for many
of those who were connected with that government lie felt per-
sonally the greatest respect ; but of what materials did the
noble lord expect the new government would be composed ?
Why, necessarily of the most discordant and disjointed mate-
rials which it was possible for the imagination of man to con-
ceive. (Cheers.) Before the noble lord could hope to work
out any practical results from the success of his motion, should
it prove successful, it appeared to be a matter of indispensable
necessity that he should be prepared to organize a government
capable of carrying on the business of the country, and of
giving effect to the great change which his proposition involved.
He desired to know if the noble lord looked fur support, in
carrying such a-scheme for forming a government into-execu-
tion, to the members of that house who were returnees by certain
constituencies in the sister island. If such were the intended
course of the noble lord—if he desired to place himself at- the
head of such ministerial body, backed by such supporters, it was
to be presumed that his recollection must have altogether passed
away of the fierce attacks that the late government sustained
from the class of members to whom he was alluding. After
referring to the support which the noble lord was now receiving
from the O'Connell party, and comparing it with the opposition
of that party to all the noble lord's measures when in office,
Sir Edward proceeded to say that Mr. O'Connell called for a
large measure of relief to the people, and that one of his propo-
sals was the taking off one-half per cent. from the interest of
the national debt. That was the important consideration for
the house and the country to hear iu mind—there was the ques-
tion upon which the house and the cuuutry were to witness a
reconciliation of mutual differences between the hon. and learned
gentleman and the noble lord. (Hear, hear.) He wished to
know if the Governor of the Bank of England was in the house ?
lie wished,. if possible, to see that great public functionaty in
his place, and hear what he had to say to the author of such a
proposition, and the newly-found political friends who had coa-
lesced with him. He should be glad to learn what were the
sentiments of the Governor of the Bank of England, with all the
responsibilities attaching to his high office of necessity present
to his view. With such responsibility, was he prepared to be-
come the advocate of such doctrines? .(Hear, hear.) But the
noble lord seemed to declare himself from the outset an enemy
to the principle conveyed by the expression, " rmeasures not
men." The noble lord seemed to have nothing to urge against
the measures, he never went into them, the whole matter seemed
to be something like a dislike to the men as politicians; but
even supposing that dislike to allow of no mitigation, surely he
might have noticed measures. He might have looked at the
tithe bill for Ireland. He might have told the house that which
there was every reason to believe would have been nothing
more than the fact, that that bill was in the estimation of the
country incomparably preferable to the measure on that subject
of the. preceding government. With respect to the dissenters'
marriage bill the very worst that could be said of it was that it
embodied the principles which the noble lord had been unable
to reduce to practice, with this further difference, that the mea-
sure of his right hon. friend gave universal satisfaction,. while
that of the noble lord was felt to be impracticable. The' same
thing might be said of the church reform bill. In conclusion,
Sir Edward said, the main feature of the question at issue was
the appropriation of church property to other than ecclesiastical
and protestant purposes, and the maintenance of the connexion
at present subsisting between church and state; and to the ob-
servations he had already submitted to the house be had but this
to add, that he did not forget that there were protestants as well
as catholics, and that, unlike the noble lord opposite, he should
feel that he did most grievous wrong if he so voted in that house
as not to do equal justice to both. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARD spoke at great length in support of the motion.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM felt some difficulty in discussing this
question, connected as it was with religious feelings and con,
scientious scruples which, while they tended to bind the judg-
ment, were not applicable to discussions in popular assemblies.
The question before the house had been of fatal importance to
him (Sir J. G.) as a minister, (a laugh,) it had hurled him from
power, and had severed him from some of his nearest and dearest
conuexions in political life ; it had blighted some of his earliest
friendships. He had carried compromise on the question as far
as it could be carried consistently with principle, and he could
not carry it further. The_ hon. member (Mr. Ward) had said
that this was a question of confidence in the present administra-
tion. He (Sir J. G.) admitted that it could not be considered
without reference to the present crisis, and in that crisis. he
would say that no government could exist-unless founded upon
the broad basis of au entire agreement with respect to the eista
Wished church of Ireland. The support he had given tothe"
present government was founded upon the declaration of Sir"
Robert Peel, that he would support the protestant religion in
England and Ireland. The present was the commencement of
a series of attacks on all corporation property, and as a con-
scientious man he could not support it. 'i he noble lord (John
Russell) had said that he was nut unfriendly to the established
church; but he would beg to ask whether those who supported
him on the present occasion were equally friendly ? 'lo what
extent could he _depend upon them t Ho wished to avoid the
expression of anything that could give offence to anyone ; but
when he found that a motion was made last year to exclude the
bishops from their seats in the House of lords—when lie found
that that motion was supported by many of those who would no
doubt support the motion of his noble friend on this occasion,
and amongst others by a member of his majesty's late govern-
ment—he owned that he could not feel disposed to place much
reliance on the friendly dispositions !towards the established
church of the supporters of his noble friend on this occasion. He
found that the connexion between church and state was to be
mooted, that the volun principle was to be mooted, and that
they were to be called nto decide whether that would not be
a better course than an e 4 ablished church. Changes were also
contemplated in the constitution of the House of Lords; and that
the bishops were to be expelled from that house—this had been
done in a former age. Now let him suppose that all this was
brought about again, what might we expect as the result? Had
history been written in vain, and were we to derive no lesson
from past experience ? He would quote a passage from au his-
torian—not a religious fanatic, but from' sceptic—and what
did he state as the result of those changes ? t" Gaiety and w;
were roscribed ; human learning despised; freedom of inquiry
detested; cant and hypocrisy alone encouraged." Were hon.
members prepared for similar results from similar changes in
the present day ? But had they led to no other ? History
would tell them, that after thirty years of civil war, which had
been marked with anarchy and bloodshed, the people finding the
evils which had come upon them utterly intoleiable, had made
an unconditional surrender of their rights and liberties. and of
their church government, into the hands of one man—lied fled
for shelter and protection to the throne, and cast themselves
under the indulgent mercies Of an exiled monarch. This was a
warning which, he hoped, would not be thrown away on the
common sense of this great country. (Loud cheers.) After
quoting an extract from Mr. II:Illam's " history of the
?diddle Ages," on corporate and private property, to the effect
that the legislature might new-mould provided it did not inter-
fere with existing interests or diVert it from it original pin pose,
Sir James said, the church property was granted fig the main-
tenance and propagation of the protestant religion. (Hear,
hear, and some cries of " No, no.") That was its original
object, and from that object he would not consenthatt it should
be diverted. ( Hear, hear.) When he said this, ki h lin trot be
misunderstood as being hostile to those church_ r4fUrms which
would go to a redistribution of church property. As long as it
was distributed for purposes strictly protestant, the state, he
would admit, had the power (saving the rights of existing in'-

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.