The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-04-07 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY.

This day being fixed for the ballot for the Drogheda election
committee, the gallery was not opened till twenty minutes past
four. CANADA.

Mr. G. F. YOUNG rose to present a petition from certain Bri-
tish residents of Beauharnots, in Lower Canada, complaining
of the conduct of the House of Assembly there, and of the
oppression and injustice to which the petitioners were subjected,
and expressive of their entire disapprobation of the 92 resolu-
tions passed by the House of Assembly in February; 1834. As
a measure had been announced by goyernment—namely, the
sending out of a commission for the purpose of healing the
lamentable dissensions which prevailed in that province, he
would refrain from entering at large into the subject of the
petition. He was afraid, however, that from the discussions
that had taken place in that house durine• the last two years,
parliament had been led to believe that the fault of such dissen-
sions was in a great degree attributable to the British residents
in Canada. and that the French population, which he admitted
formed three fourths of the population of the country, were per-
fectly free from the guilt of causing such dissensions. Now, he
begged to say, that upon inquiry he had satisfied himself that
such was not the fact. These petitioners, British subjects, stated
that they had great cause of complaint from the manner in
which they were excluded from their common rights as British
subjects, by the mode in which legislation was carried on in
Canada, which gave the French population a preponderating
weight, which they used to oppress and deprive the petitioners
of the rights to which they were entitled. The hon. gentleman,
after referring to the violent proceedings of the House of Assem-
bly, and reading some extremely violent passages fi orn speeches
made by their speaker, M. Papineau, brought up the petition.
Petitions were presented praying for a diminution of the duty
on spirit licenses, by Mr. 'roie, from the licensed victuallers
of London; by Mr. Pryme, front Cambridge (we believe) ,• by
Lord Bruce, from Marlborough; by Sir E. Knatchbull, from
Sittingbourne, in Kent; and by Colonel Lygon, from some
place of which we did not catch the name.
Mr. BAl.Foclt presented a petition from two places in Scot-
land, praying fur increased accommodation for the members of
the established church of Scotland. Petitions with a similar
payer were also presented by Mr. Pringle; and by Sir G.
Clerk, from several parishes in the county of Edinburgh.
Several other petitions to the same effect were presented from
various places in Scotland.
IR tsil CHURCH—ADJOURNED DEBATE.

The order of the day for the resumption of the adjourned de-
bate having been read,
Sir J. CAMPBELL said that he would, for his part, cheerfully
abide by the contract into which the house had entered at the
adjournment of the debate last night, that hon. members should
make a contribution out of their speeches, in older that this
great and important discussion might to-might be brought to a
close, and be should have been disposed altogether to dispense
with his right of addressing the house on that occasion, but fur
the circumstance, that no member from that part of the united
kingdom which he (Sir-J. Campbell) represented had as vet
taken a part in the debate. The learned gentleman concluded
by recommending Sir R. Peel to make a sacrifice of some of
his views for the public good.
Mr. IM enAnus had lived much in Ireland, he had partaken
of the hospitality of both catholics and protestants, and from his
knowledge of them he could testify to the force and depth of
their religious feelings. - Hon. members, theh, should take
along with them the existence of such feelings, should make
due allowance for them, should take care that no legislative pro-
ceeding received their sanction that was calculated to wound
those feelings, or in any way inflame the passions of so excitable
a people. Ile should now come to consider the scheme of the
noble lord the member for Devonshire, by which he proposed to
settle the question; that scheme amounted to this: he proposed
to take a part of the revenues of the church for the purpose of
applying them to the education of the people without distinction
of sect or creed. He could not help complaining that the terms
of the motion were disingenuoui. No surplus revenue was as
vet ascertained, and it was an actual deduction that the noble
lord proposed from the revenue as it stood, for the purposes set
forth in this resolution. Ile (Mr. Richards) objected to this,.
as a taking of the property of the protestants to give it to the
catholic religion. Mr. R. concluded his speech by saying that
he cordially joined in meeting the motion with a direct negative.
M r. Sergeant WiLDE said that notwithstanding its importance
considerable misrepresentations bud already been made as to the
nature and objects of this motion. Objections were made to it
on the ground of the form, the time, and the circumstances under
which it was brought forward. He knew nothing of the inten-
tions of the noble lurd (John Russell) who brought it forward
but what he learned from the proceedings in that house, but he
owned that he did rejoice that the motion was brought forward
at the present time and in its present form ; and when it was
said that it was a question of confidence or no confidence in
ministers, he did hone that in the sense in which be viewed it,
it would not be decided without reference to that question, and
in that respect he thought it was wisely, judiciously, and fairly
presented to their notice.
Mr. Goulburn, M r. F. Buxton, M r. H. Twigs, Lord Clements,
Mr. Borthwick, and Mr. O'Connell then addressed the house.
Sir ROBERT PELL, then proceeded to take a general review of
the arguments of all the speakers who had proceeded him. Af-
ter some prefatory remarks, the right hon. baronet said that he
had no scraps of speeches to read in order to prove that hon.
members had held different opinions in the last from what they
expressed in- the present session. In continuation he said:—
There are four courses which areopenlintouslnjoimray adheree;atle to
least,
only four suggest themselves to my nd: u
the' existing law, and determine to maintain the established
church in Ireland in the possession of its property. That is one
course. You may assert that the property of the church in
Ireland is excessive, and practically settle the question by de-
termiuing the amount of the excess; you may discourage all
false expectations by saying that is the amount which you have
determined to take from the church, and that all the rest shall
remain in its undisturbed possession. - That is the second
course. The third course you, may take is to say— " We have

' no preference for, one religion over another—we will mete out
that full measure of justice which the hon. and learned member
fur the Tower Hamlets did not in direct terms call for, but to
' which the whole of his argument was directed—we will destroy
, the predominance of any one favoured religion, either by with-
holding establiAnnents from, all, or, by granting them to all."
That is the third course. What is the fourth? • The course
which the noble lord tb,.: member for DevonSliire proposes to,
take,—to add to religious disSentions a pecuniary interest
(cheers,) to leave nothing settled—to establish twilling with
respect to the surplus—to lay down no principle by which the
applieation of the surplus can be determined, but to content
yourselves (and this you call a permanent settlement of the
question!) with asserting an unprofitable right to apply an im-
aginary surplus to an unexplained purpose. - (Much cheering.)
I do not know what more could be devised for adding to the
esnfusion which prevails in Ireland. You may by argument
support the third course to which I have adverted, hut which
tends to thedestruetion of the protestant establishment in Ire-
land; but you May shrink from acting on your own principle,
and forgetting your own arguments, you invite us to take up a
position which all those arguments prove to be untenable.
(Hear, hear.) These are, induced, new elements introduced
into a question, the position of which is bad enough already.
But you will tell the people of Ireland, not only that you will
not determine the amount of the excess of the revenues of the
protestant establishment in Ireland, but that you ,cannot indi-,
cute by what test it shall be decided. (Hear, hear.) You leave
it dependent on the will of any' government—you leave it de-
pendent on the discretion or judgment of any man ; all you say
is, that if there be a surplus, then you will applyit to certain
definite objects. If protestantism increases, it is now said that
addition is to be made to the protestant establishment—that is
to say, you tell the Roman Catholics " von have a direct interest
in preventing the increase of that sect," which has (in the
words of hon. members opposite) exercised tyranny over you..
You. have now an opportunity of revenging, yourselves for
Your part wrongs by preventing the increase of that sect
by whose increase your interest in these funds. will be di-
ininished." (Cheers.) Surely, as I said before, Ireland is con-
vulsed enough already—
" There hot and cold, moist and dry,
"Contend alike for mastery."
Sir Robert was not disposed to deny the tight, the abstract right
of the legislature to violate a national compact, if decidedly of
opinion that the public interest required it, but before doing so
they should be convinced by arguments demonstrating the ex-
isting necessity for such an interference. The act of union
guaranteed to the Irish the existence of their protestant church
as the established church of England and Ireland. In that
compact an express. provision is made which, if anything can
have, has an obligation more binding than that of the ordinary
law. Speaking of the emancipation act Sir Robert said, we
were led to believe that no privilege which the act confers Would
be exercised to disturb or weaketthe protestant religion or the
protestant government within these realms; we were told that
the removal of the civil disabilities of the catholics would give
new security to the church of Ireland—(cheers)--we were told
that the removal of those civil disabilities would redress the in-
justice of which the hon. and learned member for Dublin has
just been complaining; but we little thought that within live
years from the passing of that act the power which it conferred
would be exercised to subvert the church establishment, as far
as regards the property of the church. (Vehement cheering.)
We passed another act two years since for the reform of the
church of Ireland, by which we cut off, much to the offence of
the protestants of that country, ten bishoprics. You determined,
and in my opinion wisely, to review the state of the Irish church,
and to remove every imperfection and abuse. You said, and in
my opinion wisely, that ecclesiastical sinecures in Ireland should
follow the fate of civil sinecures—that measures should be
adopted to cut off a certain number of superfluous livings, and
to apply their revenues to the enriching of small livings. Some
of those who introduced that act contended that, according to
one of its clauses, part of the fund. obtained by the suppression
of superfluous livings might be applied to secular purposes, but
the subsequent abandonment of that clause, and the whole tenor
of the act, clearly show that the principle of reserving ecclesi-
astical property fur strictly ecclesiastical purposes was rigidly
adhered to. Two years only have elapsed since the date of that
act, and now, notwithstanding the act of union—notwithstand;
standing the removal of the, civil disabilities of the catholics—
notwithstanding the reform of the Irish church, and the ex-
tinction of ten bishoprics, the hon. and learned member for
Dublin tells you that it is necessary that the proclamation which -
he described should go to Ireland as the indication of a new
system, and the assurance of the commencement of a new era.
The hon. baronet, atter replying to the arguments advanced by
Mr. Ward, asked why they should- discuss the principle of ap-
propriating the surplus revenue, in the absence of all proof that
there was or would be any surplus to appropriate. After speak-
ing of the removal of the supposed causes why protestantisin
had not increased in Ireland, he said:—You are nut now going
to determine whether it be expedient to found a new establish-
ment
in Ireland—you are not about to determine how you will
divide among that establishment the sum of E 450,000; the ques-
tion 1 want to ask is, what will you do with the churtihes that
now exist? You have already 1,100 churches for Protestant
worship. Is it part of the noble lord's plan to abandon them?
(Cheers.) You have 1,100 glebe-houses: under the temporali-
ties bill you have made provision for the increase of small livings
and the building of churches. What do you mean to uo with
the existing state of things? (Cheers.) You say your inten-
tion is to encourage the protestant landlord to come and reside
on his estate, and the very first spectacle you will place before
his eyes is the dilapidation and ruin of that church which should
afford a sanctuary for himself and family. (Cheers.) i do cull
upon the hon. member fur Weymouth (Mr. Buxton) to lend
me his attention for a moment to this part of the case—l mean
to the last report made by the commissioners acting under the
church temporalities bill, who were appointed by the late go-
vernment, and some of whom now preside over the board of
,education. To that report I entreat the attention of the hon.
.member, and of every hon. gentleman who does not consider
this a party question (loud cheers)—whose mind is not yet wade
up—who is willing to pause (interruption )—Oh yes! you, who
made that exclamation, know that there are many who are dis-
satisfied with the progress of this debate. (Cheers.) I under-
stand you-=there are but too many ‘N ho aro dissatisfied w.th the
progress of this debate. (" Nu, nu," and cheers.) 1 call, then,
on those whose minds are not yet tirade up, and who have a
doubt—not whether they will decide to-night on the principle,
but whether they will wait ti.) see the practical plan or which
that principle shall be enforced. (Loud cheers, and 1301110 in-
terruption from the hon. Member for St. Alban's.) Oh ! I am
not addressing myself to you; I have no hope of your con-
formity. (Cheers.) I ain addressing myself to those who have
not taken up quite so prominent and conspicuous a part, and
from whose position I infer that their minds may be less deter-
mined than yours. (Cheers.) I call their attention to this last
report, which was made to the government by the board, not of
education, but specifically on the subject of the demand for pro-
testant worship. Its answer to Mr. P. Buxton, who proposed
to increase protestantism in Ireland by sending through that
country a number of protestant clergymen, whose zeal should
supply the place ottwealth, and who, by tue exercise of disinter-
esteduess and poverty, should conciliate towards them those
feelings of kindness and respect which had been hindered and
prevented;, by the more imposing exhibitions of worldly wealth
and independence, Sir Robert said, when I look at the course of
education which must be pursued by a clergymain—when I look
at, the situation which he sustains,—when 1 consider the means
he possesses of influencing thoSe who stand in as much need of
his ministrations as the humbler members of his flock—those, I
mean, iu a corresponding station iu life to his own,-1 should
deprecate above all things the encOuragemeut of au extravagant
zeal, and trusting to poverty cod its dependent exhibitions as
the means of recommending not this or that man, but the whole
of a ministry, as part of a system, to the confidence and good
feeling of the Roman catholics of • Ireland. (Loud cheers.)
Then, if you admit that principle—if you, looking to the educa-
tion that must be had, and the acquirements that must be made
—Woking to the -life which a clergyman must lead, the dangers
to which he and his family may perhaps, be exposed, mho
absence in many parts of Ireland of all society which can be
gratifying to the feelings and habits of an educated and intellec-
tual man—l ask you what is the sum which you think it would
be fair and sufficient to allot for the maintenance in such cir-
cumstances of a clergyman and his family ? (Cheers.) You
have now 1,40 U beuences in Ireland, 1,100 churches, 1,4u0 der-
g) men, and 600 curates, to whom no reteience has been made
—how many of these do you propose to reduce ? (Cheers.) Do
you think you can propose, without shocking the feelings of the
protestant population in Ireland, to remove '2OO or 3(X) ciergy-
men from the beuetices which they now hold in that country
(Renewed cheems.) After making any reductions which you
may propose, what sum, I again ash, will you give as sufficient
to'provide for a protestant clergyman and his family? I should
object to divisions of any sum, mu order to the equalization of
incomes; but if the sum you were to allot dues not exceed £3OO
a-year for the whole, does the hon. gentleman think that we are
claiming too much, if in the prescut state of things we demand
the application of the church revenues, which, taken altogether,
will not be able to yield so much to strictly ecclesiastical pur-
poses? Our space precludes the possibility of giving a detail of
the answers of Sir Relit. Peel to time Speakers who had supported
the motion. We must, therefore, content ourselves with giving
his concluding obseivations in an entire form :—There is a dii-
fereuee of £2.50,000 between the noble lord and my self. He
positively asserts that the amount of revenue is £79l,e(X), and I
as positively declare that I do believe it to be under £450,000.
I say, then, that it would be but justice to the church to ascer-
tain, beyond all possibility of disiette, which of us is correct in
his calculation. (Hear, hear.) By moving your resolutions in
committee, as 1 have intimated, you will have the advantage.of
the report of the commissioners, to which great importance is
attributed by the hon. members opposite. (Hear.) last you,
then, to concur with me in relieving the noble-lord himself from
the great practical difficulty in winch he is placed. (Hear.)
No man will more rejoice than the noble loi d if you will be but
good enough to obey may
.voice and come to the rescue. (" Hem,"
and laughter.) I most sincerely believe that he has been brougnt
into his present unfortunate situation by the advice of inuis-
erect friends. (Cheers and laughter.) Ile did nut give notice
of this motion. (Hear, hear.) The hon. member ter St. Al-
ban's had stood sponsor to it. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord
was obliged to take it out of his hands, and then first he asked
and gave notice that he wanted the whole report, and afterwards
he moved for a partial report of the labours of the commissioners.
(Hear, hear.) He courted -delay, but time pressed; he was I
obliged to go on. (Cheers and laughter.) The eoble lord saw
the expediency and the good policy of waiting fur information,
but he- was compelled to yield to the pressure from behind.
(" Hear, hear,' and laughter.) I am convinced that you will ;
be confet ring a favour upon the noble lord in allowing hint to
be induced to withdraw his motion. I have no objection that
he should withdraw it (" hear, hear," and laughter)—te, wee..
draw it untildie can produce some practical plait for our consi-
deration, sonic plan in which you can concur. .(" Hear, hear,"
and laughter.) Let us, then, unite in endeavouring to rescue
the noble lord from the situation in which he is placed, and re-
frain from interrupting that happiness which his opponents
wish him us cordially as his friends. (" Hear, hear," and
laughter.) The hon. member for Weymouth, in the course of
his speech, told you that where there were differences of opinion
there should be inquiry. Are you then prepared, in defiance of
his authority, to proceed without inquiry ? Will you nut wait
until vou receive that information which you are led to believe
will enable vou to act consistently with your present views, and
to act without the shadow of an imputation on your conduct ?
(Hear.) Let us not, then, enter into any hasty decision which
may preclude us from the possibility of cunning into a satisfac-
tlry lied settlement, which we think may be accomplished.
I on may insist on your 'present resolution, you may succeed
in freting it upon us, ; but supposing that you no, I shall
not have to wish you joy of your triumph. It may probably
enable you to embarrass the future progress of the administra-
tion ; it may be an indication that your principle will ultimately
triumph, still do hot be too confident. ( Loud cheers.) Let time,
in the moment of your pride, the buoyhncy of your exultatiou„
itsuip the functions of an office which, in former times, was held
by r: slave, but which may now be held by a freeman without
derogation from his character. You may. boast that you exer-
cise the supreme power and control over the executive gyve! n-
mr•nt of the country, but let me whisper in your ear, that though
triumphant here, although enabled. to drive the engine of state
after whatsoever fashion you may please, the power that you
exercise does not extend without the walls with that intensity
with which it operates within. (Hear, hear, and cheers.)
Yes, it is unpalatable even in the function that 1 for the moment
have voluntarily assumed to place before a triumphant con-
queror the Vanity of human wishes, the instability of mortal
triumph, but yet I must not shrink from it, and I tell you, that
notwithstanding your vaunted unjorities here, yen do not con-

trol public opinion. (Loud cheers.) We may he weak here,
but this I tell you, and I beg again to say I. do so most respect-
fully, but also most firmly, and with a most perfect conviction
of the truth, that there is a public opinion alto,gether independent
of majorities, and which is not to be controlled by votes (great
cheering,) but which is essential to the peace andthe prosperity
of the country, which must be always hereafter au essential
element in'every executive government. I 'never was more con-
vinced of anything than I ain of -the truth of what I have said.
I never was more confident of anything than that the people
will not sanction a motion to enibarass the government. You
may have their silence, but you will not have their approbation.
(Loud cheers.) The people of England will not sanction
attempts to throw unusual obstacles in the way of the executive
government. (Continued cheering.) It would sanction a vote
of want of confidence ; that would be an usual course of pro-
ceeding. 'Why have you not the manliness to pursue it ? Why
do you, instead of it, ask me to undertake this question ?
(Hear, hear.) Why do you not say at once that you want to
turn out the government by the introduction of this measure ?
If you are confident in your strength, which you so fondly
boast, let me ask you, are you competent to undertake the o-_
_g
vernment yourselves ? (" Hear, hear," and laughter.) You
have great majorities; do you possess the means of carrying on,
the executive government ? If you do, your way is free before
you. Strong in the confidence of the house, strong iu the con-
fidence of the people, you can have no difficulty in deciding this
question. Why then do you throw it upon me? Why do you
not take the responsibility on yourselves ? , Why do you not
displace us, and then carry on the measure triumphantly ?
(Cheers.) 1 feel that I. cannot undertake to enforce your reso-
lution.. I give you notice of the course that I mean to pursue.
I shall oppose lyour motion for a committee. I shall oppose
your resolution in committee, and above all things, and most
strenuously, I shall oppose your communication of that resolu-
tion to his Majesty. (Loud cheers.) I shall adhere to the
principles of my own measure. I feel that such is the necessity
for the settlement of the tithe question that it will admit of no
further delay. I shall press it forward, and if you signify an
intention of continuous opposition—if your determination to
throw unusual impediments in the way of the government be
plainly indicated, and if 1 find I shall not be able to proceed
with the settlement of this question if you determine on obstruct-
ing it in principle and detail, I shall then see that the time has
arrived when it will not be possible for me, consistently with my
sense of duty, to remain in the situation which I have at present
the honour to hold. (The right hon., gentleman resumed his
seat amidst the loudest cheering.)
Lord JOHN II ussxt.i, then spoke in reply.
On a division the numbers were
For the motion
Against it
Majority
On our re-admission we found the house in committee.
The question being put by the Chairman, that he report pro-
gress, and ask leave to sit again this day,
Sir ROBERT PEEL objected to bringing up the report this
day, on the ground that the debate on the resolution itself in
the house having been unusally protracted, having been con-
tinued for four days,_ it was only reasonable to postpone further
proceedings until Monday. On that day no obstacle would
be interposed to proceeding to the final settlement of the
question.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the observation of the right hon.
baronet was rather a reason in favour of proceeding this day
than of postponing the settlement of the question till Monday.
The great length of the debate which had just terminated gave
every reason to anticipate that the house would not desire to
discuss the question much longer, and therefore he could not
consent to any postponement.
Mr. FINCH was understood to say that many hon. members
had been prevented from delivering their sentiments in some
instances by the friends of the noble lord opposite • it was there-
fore hardly; fair to oppose a postponement. He did not himself
entertain the least doubt that there would be three nights more
of debate. •

Lord EnaiNGToN said that that afforded an additional reason
for proceeding without delay. If, as the hon. member opposite
said, there, yet remained so many members to deliver their
opinions, the sooner they proceeded to the final settlement of the
question the better; anti he therefore hoped that his noble friend
would persevere in his resistance to postponement.
Mr. IticHsans said, that as he had moved an amendment.
(Cries of " Oh, oh,") The honourable member endeavoured
to address the house, but the uproar which prevailed reude►ed
him inaudible.

Mr. HONE earnestly desired that they should proceed with
as little delay as possible.
Sir R. PEEL said that to himself personally it was a matter
of perfect indifference whether they proceeded this day or on
Monday; he only proposed the latter day from consideration
towards the house. A great many gentlemen had been disap-
pointed of an opportunity to deliver their sentiments; it, there-
fore, appeared to him that, if there were to be an adjournment
of the debate from this day to Monday—as there must neces-
sarily be, if they resolved upon proceeding without delay, they
had much better at once postpone the bringing up tle report
to Monday. The proposition lie had made did not appear to
him unreasonable, for he thought that if they were to have
debate upon the question they would come to it more fresh on
M onday.

Lorcl J. RussaLL was still of the same opinion.
Lord SANDON observed, that it was hard to have the wishes
of so large a minority controlled, and their convenieuce so
little consulted by hon. members opposite.
The question was then put and agreed to without a division.
The house resumed, the chairman reported progress, and
obtained leave to sit again this day.
'rhe.house then adjourned at half-past three o'clock.