The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-07-23 00:00:00

them a 3 men of honour, bound, to send the bill to committee,
and to make out of it a bill which woulc: atinid some relief to
the clergy of Ireland.
The Bishop of BATH and WELLS said, that he would vote for
the second reading of the bill in consideration of the very large
majorities it had obtained, after mature deliberation, in the
other House of Parliament. (Cries of "Question.")
The Bishop of IiEttEFOUD said, he also wished to state the
simple ground upon which he founded his consent to the second
reading of the bill. He consented to it from the feeling of con-
fideuc,i he entertained for those who had proposed it, and from
the conviction which was strongly impressed on his mind that
they would never sanction, much less bring forward, any mea-
sure which they did not in their consciences believe would be
beneficial to the church, for he considered them true friends of
the church. He confessed that many of the provisions of the
bill gave him uneasiness and distrust; but he trusted they
might be modified in committee. He thought it was for the
safety of the church to pass the measure, and for its serious
injury to reject it.
The Loan CHANCELLOR then rose, and began by observing that he
entirely agreed hi the sentiments just delivered by the right rev. pre-
late and the noble lord, and with them, was convinced of the absolute
necessity of passing a raeasare of the description of that under con-
sideration ; but, though lie agreed with them both in this general
proposition, he differed from them both in respect of feeling no re-
luctance whatever in giving the vote he was prepared to give for the
second reading. It was evident that the first and primary duty of the
King's Government was to preserve the lives of his Majesty's sub-
jects. Those were placed in jeopardy in Ireland, and under these
circumstances of dire necessity, his Majesty's ministers, with un-
feigned reluctance and regret, proposed the present bill. In propor-
tion to the necessity for the enactment was the pain with which they
yielded to that necessity. Ireland was then labouring under a compli-
cation of miseries ; in fact, society in'that country was in a state of
complete disorganization ; and it therefore beCame the bounden duty
of ministers and of the Parliament to institute an immediate inquiry
into the circumstances of that state of disquiet, and to consider what
measures might prevent a recurrence of those scenes. He would say
at once, without the fear of contradiction from even the most com-
mon observer of passing events, that the diminution of the number
of bishops had become absolutely and imperatively necessary. He
alluded to the Irish bishops. (Hear.) Let any man compare that
establishment with the English hierarchy., either as regarded the
numbers of the flock and the pastors appointed over the flock, or as
regarded the amount of the congregation and the number of benefices,
and he would see in one view the vast disproportion between the
overlookers of the vineyardin each country, and a vast disproportion
in the number of labourers. The disproportion in these particulars
was such that he 'the Lord Chancellor) wondered not at all that it
should have excited those feelings which it was known now prevailed.
This country had a population belonging to the established church nine
times greater than Ireland, yet Ireland had nearly the same number
not only, of bishops but also of clergymen ; and surely, without going
further into a comparison, it would not be denied that this dispropor-
tion was monstrous. (Hear.) But on looking to the revenues of
the two churches, the disproportion would be found to be equally
great. It would appear that in a country where the Protestant popu-
lation did not exceed 800,000 or 900,000 persons, the expenses of the
hierarchy were nearly as great as where the Protestant population ex-
ceeded the former by at least nine times. (Hear, hear.) He felt it
"ez quite eeessary after the statement made by his noble friemi at the
head of
the government at the opening of the discussion, to go inure
into the details of this measure ; but he must assert that the people in
both countries would not have been satisfied without some adjustment
of these points. He had heard it said in the course of these three
nights' debate, and if he mistook not, by the right rev. prelate oppo-
site., thet this was a measure of violence and spoliation, and those
'aeries not being suilicently strong and full of meaning to express the
warmth of his feelings, the right rev. prelate added another—namely,
" robbery," and he compared those who
_proposed it to the highway-
man who stopped the traveller with the threat, " Stand and deliver."
Then, if they were guilty of such a crime for delivering up those
things, of what were those gyilty who delivered up two bishoprics,
one in 1741, and one 1732 ? for the only difference between them was,
that the one delivered up two bishops, and that the other proposed
to deliver up ten. But it suited the argument of the right reverend
prelate to speak of the church as a corporation, and to rail against the
justice of Parliament interfering with its property. Did not the right
rev. prolate forget that that house sometimes took upon it to deal with
the property of the East India Company, which was in reality a cor-
poration ? (Hear, hear.) Had the right rev. prelate not very long
ago, too, sat in that house from day to day, and for hours each day,
while an act of Parliament was passing through it for wresting £30,600
from the Ilan& of that very corporation, to put it into the pockets of a
gentleman of the name of Murray No one was more thoroughly or
sincerely a friend of the established church of England and Irela.nd
than himself,—none more convinced of the necessity of its existence,
with a view to supply the essential wants of the people ; none more
reluctant to do any thing—nay, more resolved to do nothing to shake
its foundations, or do away with its necessary rights and privileges.
But the-difference between him and his opponents consisted in this,
that he was for, and they were against, adapting the church to the
feeling and opinions of men over whom it was meant to hold sway in
spiritual matters, and which feelings if it did reconcile to itself its
ministers must teach and preach in vain. (Cheers.) For that cause
he desired to see such salutary reforms and improvements introduced
into the church as would render it more useful in practice, better en-
titled to the love and affections of the people, and more secure and
permanent in its nature. Those were his opinions as to church
reform : happily they had little application to the church in England.
That there were defects in that branch of the church, and that they
Would be remedied by the heads of the church, who felt every dis-
position td adopt safe and effectual remedies, he was well convinced ;
and further, that Parliament, and the people of this land, would
keep that watch over the church which would be wholesome for its
interests and welfare, lie entertained a confident belief. (Hear, hear.)
But they were now discussing that particular part of the establish-
ment with respect to which no man could deny that reform must be
applied, if it was to continue to be useful and effective for the instruc-
tion of the people ; nay, if it was much longer to exist in Ireland: and
unless some such measure as the present (and no substitute had
been proposed for it,) were carried, unimpaired in principle, and in
all its material provisions, the Irish church must be exposed to immi-
nent hazard ; nay, further, he submitted that there was an end to the
security and permanency—a speedy end to the very existence of that
church. (Cheers.)— Upon these grounds, and others of a like nature
it was that he entertained a confident expectation that their lordships
would pass this bill ; and assuming the second reading to be agreed to,
he was sure that nothing could he done in the committee to at all
cripple the efficiency of the measure. (Ilear.) That their lordships
! should ever think of passing the second reading of the bill, and going
into committee upon it with the intention of introducing changes that
would iuiaair its efficiency or materially change its nature, was a sup-
position that he would reject with indignation if ever he heard it
mentioned—with an indignation proportionate to the respect he enter-
tained for their lordships. Consistently with that feeling of respect,
it was utterly impossible for him to believe that the house would come
to a vote of a colourable and collusive nature, in mockery of the peo-
ple of this kingdom, and fraught with a thousand times worse conse-
quences than . the manly and straightforward, though he thought
deluded, course of throwing out the bill altogether on the question of
its second reading. (Cheers.)
The Duke of CUMBERLAND said, that when the noble and learned
lord called those individuals bigots who considered the coronation
oath as an obstacle to the measure, he felt compelled to say that to
the maintenance of such an opinion he must again plead guilty ; for
he could not for the life of him see how that oath was to be got over
in the present case. (Hear.) He had heard much upon the subject,
but he could consider an oath in but one way ; it was a mattcr be-
tween him and his God, mid he could not understand the distinction
as to the possibility of taking. an oath in one capacity and not in
another. And when it was said that there was a difference between
takingsan oath in an executive and legislative sense, he owned that
he could not understand it. He opposed this bill because' he could
not forget thathe was—though a very humble individual—a• member
of that filthily which had been called to the throne of this country
in support of Protestant principles. He could not, therefore, consent
to a measure, which in his conscience, he believed would lead to the
annihilation of Protestantism in Ireland. Ile could not but remark,
in passing, that there was a great error in making a distinction be-
tween the church of England and the church of Ireland. Since the
passing of the act of union there was but one established church—
that of the United Kingdoms of Great Britain and Ireland, and any
measure which tended to injure that portion of the establishment
which was in Ireland could not but be fraught with danger to the
establishment in England. (Hear, hear.) On these grounds he op-
posed the bill. He might, and no doubt he should be blamed in
many quarters, for the part he thus took, but he gave his vote con-
scientiously, and he had no objection that the public should know
what he felt on this important question. He had stated his feelings
and opinions openly, and he hoped fairly, and by those opinions he
would stand or fall. (Hear, hear.)
The Duke of SUSSEX said that at that very late hour he would not
presume to address their lordships but for the remarks which had
been made by his illustrious relative—from whom he regretted to say
that he differed not only on this but on many constitutional questions.
He (the Duke of Sussex) would give his cordial support to this bill,
and in doing so he considered that he discharged his duty to those
great principles which had placed his family on the throne of these
realms.
Lord Witeeouri rose amidst loud cries of " Question," " Adjourn."
The noble and learned lord said, that he was quite prepared either to
adjourn :he question to to-morrow, or to go on at that moment. Noble
lords vile° supported the transfer of church cess from one party to
another seemed to forget that it was a charge on land, and that thbse
who purchased the land took it with all its engagements. The cess
was a condition annexed to the possession of lane, and the party who
held the land must pay it as long as he held it. As well might a rent
charge be objected to, on the ground that the object to which it was
to be applied was different from that which the holder of the land
desired, 1t was said that this bill was necessary on the ground of ex-
pediency ; hut he must contend that no good ground of expediency
Md been stated. If Ireland could be reduced to peace and tranquil-
lity by the sacrifice of the church cess he would most willingly make
it, for then there would be something gained ; but, he would ask,
what had they hitherto gained by concession ? If they gave up this
to-day something more would be demanded to-morrow. Here came
his first objection to the bill. He did not dispute the right of parlia-
ment to dispose of ecclesiastical property, for ecclesiastical purposes,
but he did object to taking ecclesiastical property and applying it to
lay' purposes. Their lordships had heard a good of the 141tclause
of this bill as the bill was originally drawn. He wished that that clause
had not been withdrawn, for, withdrawn as it now was, it marked the
designs of the framers of the bill. Their lordships, he was sure,
would not forget that it had been distinctly avowed in the course of
the debate, that the time, though it was not yet come, would
soon arrive in which it would be gravely and seriously discussed
whetter church property ought not to he applied to lay purposes.
The noble and learned lord bad said, that if this bill were not the
best bill that could be devised, it still deserved the support of their
lordships, because it contained within itself the seeds of ameliora-
tion. Now, what did that language mean, when translated into plain
English ? Nothing more than this—that this bill could be employed
as the fulcrum for any lever which might hereafter be employed to
subVert the church establishment of Ireland, The coronation oath
divided itself into three parts, two of which evidently belonged to
the King in his executive capacity ; but the third bound him in his
legislative capacity. This was plain, because the two first divisions
bound and specified all those functions which applied to the execu-
tive, while the third could only be interpreted as binding upon the
legislative capacity, inasmuch as it enjoined his Majesty to observe
the laws of God and preserve the rights of the church as by law
established. It had been said, however, that as an earthly power
imposed the oath, the same earthly power could absolve the King
from its obligatious. This was a Protestant country ; there was no
Pope, thank God, here to absolve them from their oaths—to keep
between their consciences and Heaven. No power could absolve the
descendant of King William 111. from the oath which hound him to
protect •the Protestant church of the country ; therefore the King
could uot content to the annihilation of II bishoprics out of 22 in the
Protestant.church of Ireland. For •these reasons he should vote
against the principle of the bill.
Earl GREY' replied at considerable length, and towards the close of
his speech said that this bill had nothine to do with Catholics. He
denied that it was a concession to the Catholics ; it was a concession
to the Protestant church, in order to preserve it from peril. The
noble earl concluded by a few remarks on the probability of the bill
being materially altered in committee. He trusted that no such alter-
atious mieeht be made in it as would ensure its rejection by the other
• house Of Parliament. if so, he would very much prefer its rejection
at once, on the second reading. Ile could assure their lordships that
he had endeavoured so to frame the measure as to prevent such a de-
cision being come to by them. This was his answer to the charge
which had been brougtit aga inst him of endeavouring to conciliate a
party whom he had no chance of conciliating. A noble earl, who
spoke the other night, in alluding to the prohabdity of a collision
between the two houses of Parliament, had declared, that if that col-
lision must come, the sooner it came the better. • He (Earl Grey) re-
geetted the avowal of such a sentiment. He could noly say he had
done his best to lead thoulordships from the edge of the gulph on
which such a step would be sure to place them. To comply with the
reasonable demands of the people for reasonable reforms was not
surely the likely way to produce convulsion in the country. He would
say that the endeavour by their lordships to control public opinion
was, however, the likely way to produce it, and instead of setting
their face against all reforms, their lordships would more surely pre-
vent confusion ie the country by advocating and supporting them.
The noble earl concluded amidst loud cheers.
Their lordehies then divided, when the numbers appeared—
Conteuts—nresent lO4
Proxies sd-157
Not-Contents—,resent 6B
Proxies _ 30— 93

Mojoritv in favour of the bill .. . 59
The gallery was not re-opened, but we understood the bill was
read a second time, and ordered to be committed on Monday next.
Their lordships adjourned at a Quarter-past Four o'clock.

HOUSE OF . COMMONS, FRIDAY, Itny 19.
The gallery was opened at a quarter-past 12 o'clock.
EAST INDIA COAIYANY'S CLLARTER BILL.
On the motion of Mr. Grant, the house resolved itself into com-
mittee upon the East India Bill.
The Chairman put the 89th clause, which provides for the appoint-
ment of two 'olshops, one for the Presidency of Fort St. George• and
the other for the Island of Bombay.
On this clause a discussion ensued which continued until three
o'clock, when
The house resumed, the chairman reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again. •
The house adjourned till five o'clock.

The Speaker resumed the chair shortly after five o'clock.
FACTORIES' 'SILL.
An hon. Member inquired of the noble lord (Altliorp) oppbsitc what
course the government intended to pursue in the future disposition
of this bill.
Lord A LTITOIIy said that he was not prepared to state exactly what
would he done as to the specific clauses of the bill ; but, at all events,
the children under 15 years of age would be protected.
THE Iless._ao'r._

Mr. G. LAtin gave notice, that he should on Monday apply forleave
to bri,& in a inli to amend the Beer Act.
The hv.,ge Chun went into eozucalttee osi tint