The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-02-22 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

fear of the loss of interest, and influenced by the hope of re-
ward; and was it to tribunals so operated upon that English-
men were disposed to hand over the King's subjects in Ireland,
and at the same moment talk of constitutional principles and
liberty ? Was it to an English assembly, and in the nineteenth
century, that he was speaking when he talked of these things?
He did not mean to accuse them of being ungrateful of the ser-
vices rendered them by the Irish. The people of Ireland had
stood by them in the great struggle for reform; would they stand
by the people of Ireland in the contest for constitutional freedom?
What was it be asked of them ? Inquiry. Let English reformers
know the extent of his demands. He demanded that no man
should outlaw Ireland at his word—that no tale-bearers should
fritter away the constitution of Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He
implored them not to introduce despotism into his country, and.
deprive her people of every constitutional guard, until at least
they granted inquiry, and explained what it was that made a
nation guilty. He did not like revolution nor the risk of revo-
lution all he wanted was, that salutary changes might be made
in Ireland ; and if that house were disposed to make those
changes, no man would be more ready than himself to demon-
strate to others that there was no necessity for a repeal. (Hear,
hear.) But the measures proposed by government, instead of
being salutary to Ireland, would only tend to irritate the country.
They were, he believed, brought forward for the purpose of en-
forcing the payment of tithe. (Hear, hear.) Let but a parish
resist the payment,—let there arise any disputes,—a party of
dragoons would be sent down, the place proclaimed, and wo be
to the man brought before a court-martial for non-payment of
tithe ! (Hear, hear.) Let the reformers of England, and those
who looked to the abolition of tithes in this country. understand
that ! He perhaps should be told that he wanted to protect the
midnight murderer. To such a charge his indignation would
scarcely permit him to reply; but let any man show himany
addition al enactments which would give greater facilities to pre-
vent or punish those crimes, without entirely destroying the
liberties of the country, and he would be most ready to assist in
passing them. (Hear, hear.) He had already suggested the
appointment of permanent special comniissions; he was ready
to go further, apd to make it a misdemeanor, or worse, for any
person in a disturbed district to be out of his house at night with-
out legitimate cause, rovided the offender was tried by a jury
of his countrymen and a judge of the land. (Hear, hear.) If
any plan for quieting Ireland,- without breaking in on the con-
stitution, could be shown to him, he was ready to beive that mea-
sure his best support. He would go further and say, that the
bare fact of being out of a house at night ought to be made a mis-
demeanour, or worse—(hear, hear,)—but he would not give the
power of trying such cases to a court composed of three military
officers, but to the judges of the land. He contended that the
present system of legal machinery in Ireland was sufficient to
restore peace and order, and after the trials under the new mea-
sure had taken place, would Ireland be pacified? No; but it
would produce a contrary effect. Let there be an inquiry, and
if the result should be unfavourable, why then she must submit.
By doing justice to Ireland, the government of this country
would receive the thanks of reformed England, and of Europe
also. Let England look to her situation with regard to the rest
of Europe. If an insurrection were at this moment to take place
in Ireland, what would be the value of the three per cents.?
( Hear, hear.) And let the advocates of economy only consider
for a moment how much it would cost to do injustice to Ireland.
Let it not be said all over Europe, that England gave Ireland
this blow at the very time that she helped her in carrying the
great measure of reform. He should sit down in the hope that
to-morrow would bring glad tidings to Ireland. Oh 2 let England
but do her j ustice, and the hearts of the Irish people would beat
with joy and gratitude—a joy and gratitude that would afford
Englishmen the highest gratification they could feel as men, and
bless them as Christians. (Cheers.)
Lord ALTHORP said he was satisfied the house would not at
the present moment ask him to follow the bon. and learned
gentleman into the question which he had thought fit to bring
forward in a most inconvenient and unusual manner. (Hear.)
The proper time for discussing the subject would be when the
measure came regularly before the house. The hon. and learned
gentleman had stated the great evils which would follow in sus-
pending the constitution, but the question the house would have
to decide was this, whether the temporary suspension of the
constitution would be worse than to have Ireland in the state
she was in. It would be the duty of the house to decide be-
tween these two evils. If it should be his lot to bring forward
a measure such as that to which the hon. and learned gentle-
man had referred, he hoped that he should he prepared to jus-
tify it by proving the necessity which existed for its adoption.
Of this he was satisfied that he should not introduce such a
measure to the house unless he was quite sure that a strong
necessity existed for it, and he was also sure that he should not
do so without being himself satisfied of that fact. (Hear.)
Mr. F. O'CONNOR said that however inconvenient the dis-
cussion of this question might be to ministers, the inconvenience
to Ireland, if the proposed measure were introduced, would be
much greater. (A laugh.) Let the government pause before
it should be too late. He wished to retain for Ireland, all that
now remained—the shadow of her constitution.

Colonel CONOLLY said that he felt it his duty to state his
views upon the subject that had been brought under the consi.
deration of the house by the hon. and learned member for Dub-
lin, in powerful language of which he was so complete a master,
and to admit the entire necessity that called for this enactment.
He looked upon these measures as measures of protection, and
calculated to free the people from the despotism that at present
was exercised over the minds of the people, which prevented
the due administration of the law. No man in the provinces
of Leinster and Munster could express his opinions without in-
curring the most awful responsibility, although the house had
heard the south of Ireland was in a tranquil state. (Hear.)
He knew the state of Ireland, and had a house within ten miles
of Dublin, and he was threatened to have it burned down un-
less he discharged a steward in his employment. (Hear, hear,
and cheers.) Ile hon. and learned member for Dublin had
stated that he had never attended an antitithe meeting, he (Col.
Conolly) had sworn informations that the hon. and learned
gentleman had attended an antitithe meeting in Leixlip, and
was the originator of those meetings, and had advised the peo-
ple not to pay, although he had pocketed £5O for himself on the
occasion. (Hear, hear.) The lion. and learned member had
practised an imposition on the house, in talking of his patriot-
ism for Ireland, and working upon their feelings, under the
pretext of humanity. (Hear, hear.) It was most painful to
him to expose a countryman. He did not talk of patriotism
with the hon. and learned member • he urged the measure, and
only regretted it had not been adopted sooner; for, as the law
stood at present, no man could consider •his life or property
safe. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. SHELL said, that he was not surprised at the hon. and
gallant officer who had stated, that he would support the mea-
sure in contemplation, and tvho evinced a natural tenderness to
the tribunal intended to be established; the hen. and gallant
officer had furnished to the house, a strong proof how far it was
safe to furnish to so unprejudiced a mind, the power of impri-
sonment and exile at his discretion. Let the house examine
the details of the gallant officer, which was limited to a single
threat to burn his house, if he refused to dismiss his steward.
He considered that the government had greatly contributed to
the evils that oppressed Ireland; would Englishmen act in such
a manner to their own countrymen? Would Englishmen act
thus towards the people of Yorkshire or Lancashire? No; but
Ireland was treated as a province, tied up with the,strength of
a tyrant, but which it was tyranous to use. The hon. and
learned member then referred to events that took plase in
Manchester in 1807, when 1(X),000 men assembled with flags,•
when a secret committee was appointed to inquire into the facts
connected With those events before the government would be
allowed to interfere with the privileges of Britons. On that
occasion Lord Grey protested against the-suspension of the
Habeas Corpus, "because the law from its peculiar nature was
liable to abuse." The hon. and learned .Tentleman concluded,
protesting against the measure, as establishing a fatal precedent
which might be abused on some future occasion. (Cheers.)
Mr.O'CoNNtia. claimed the indulgence of the house to refute
an attack that had been most unjustly made upon him during
his absence by the hon. and gallant member for Donegal. That
hon. member stated that he (Mr. O'Connell) had attended the
anti-tithe meeting,at Leixlip, and had advised the people not to
pay tithes, and had received £5O for himself. The hon. member
said he had sworn information to that effect. This was an act of
gross injustice to him (Mr. O'Connell) because if suck informa-
tions were, they ought to have been -forwarded to the govern-
ment. (Hear, hear.) He would undertake to prosecute the
party Who was guilty of such gross, wilful, and abominable
penury. (Cheers.)
Colonel CONOLLY said, that he had stated that a meeting, at
which the hon. and learned gentleman had attended,.had been
held in the house of a tenant of his (Col. Conolly's) own—a
man of the name of Herbert, and that there a collection had
been made under the head of the O'Connell rent for that gen-
tleman; and that he (Col. Conolly) had it sworn before him that
the amount collected on that day amounted to £sOand upwards.
Mr."O'CONNELL said that if it was sworn that he had been at
Leixslip on that or any such occasion, he did not hesitate to say
that it was gross perjury. He well remembered having attended
an anti-union meeting at Leixslip, but as to the story of money
being collected at that meeting, or at any at which he bad been
present, no greater falsehood had ever been stated, either with-
(Alt or on oath. (Hear.)
Colonel CONOLLY had, understood that on the occasion to
which he had referred, that a scaffold had been erected for the
reception of the hon. and. learned gentleman, but that he him-
self was not in the country at the time. (Hear, and a laugh.)

Ile had, however, seen the spot on which it stood, (laughter),
and he could add that the unfortunate individual whom he had
named (Herbert) had actually solicited the rector of the parish
to impound his cattle for the tithe, because he (Colonel Cono11v)
had declared that he would not receive the rent until the tithe
were paid. (Laughter; with hear.)
Mr. STANLEY said he would not follow the example of the
honourable and learned member for Dublin, in discussing the
details of a measure that was not before the house, and might or
might not hereafter come under its discusssion. Some parti-
culars, however, of fact to which the hon. and learned member
had adverted, he could not refrain from noticing. The right hon.
gentleman then entered upon a statement of the trials at Clon-
mel, showing the absence both of witnesses and jurors, through
intimidation. He challenged the hon. and learned member for
Dublin to make out a case that could justify him in accusing
the government with any inclination to exercise an undue
influence in the selection of jurors; and he (Mr. Stanley)
would furnish him with all the documents ; and he would appeal
to England and Ireland for a decision. (Cheers.)
Mr. RONAYNE said, he could assure the house that measures
of coercion would fail of their intended effect in Ireland. The
object of that now brought forward in the other House of Par-
liament, was to try to enforce the payment of tithes. But
they were quite mistaken if they thought they could make the
people of Ireland submit to such an exaction as tithes—not-
withstanding' the same measure proposed by his Majesty's
government. He condemned the principle of forcing upon the
people of Ireland 'an established church foreign to the religion
of the country—a thing unexampled in the history of any
other country in the world, and the honourable member con-
cluded by entering his protest against measures which were
brought forward to coerce Ireland—measures which would have
the effect of creating dissatisfaction instead of producing quiet.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. D. CALLAGHAN said he was in Ireland when the King's
speech arrived in that country, and it filled the loyal and peace-
able portion of that country with dismay. The state of Ireland
was greatly exaggerated in the statements made by the King's
ministers. In the county of Cork the greatest tranquillity pre-
vailed, and the existing law was there fully carried into effect.
If the present system were continued towards Ireland, it would
force upon those who were now doubtful on the subject of
repeal, the conviction that such a measure was necessary for
the benefit of the country. He condemned in the strongest
terms the passing of any coercive measures towards Ireland.
Mr. C. O'DwrEa alluded to the King's speech of the last
session, and read that part of it whichcommented upon the
riots at Bristol, particularly where his Majesty is made to say,
that although it was necessary to support the authority of the
law, yet that he would never sanction any infringement of the
right of petition. This was the language of ministers when ap-
plied to Englishmen, for they dare not use any other. The mi-
nisters speak of the advantage of the Union. Here it is exem-
plified. One system is to be practised in England, and another
was to be, adopted in Ireland. He would give every opposition
in his power to any measure of coercion being introduced into
Ireland.

Mr. C. E. STEwART said he was as great an admirer of con-
stitutional liberty as any member in that house, but if he under-
stood the meaning of the word "liberty," constitutional liberty
could not exist where the laws were paramount. (Hear.)
Such liberty could not exist where parties were assembled for
illegal purposes by the ringing of bells, the sounding of horns,
and lighting of fires. Where the laws could not protect pro-
perty, and where life was not safe, it was not liberty, but tyran-
ny in its most atrocious form. In such a state of things it was
necessary to have recourse to extraordinary powers, which
should be ample and efficient, and exercised in a decided man-
ner, but only to continue during the emergency which called
for them.

Mr. M. O'CONNELL thought, from part of the Speech of the
honourable member who spoke last, that he had been an Irish
member whom he had not known. He said, that that alone was
constitutional liberty where the laws were paramount; and it
was because liberty existed only where the laws were paramount
that they (the Irish members) opposed this measure. With
respect to the statem. nt of the right honourable secretary as to
the number of persons whose names had been called over at
the Clonmel assizes, and who did not appear, it had been the
practice to summon on the long pannel three times as many
Jurors as were likely to attend, and it was well known that for
2s. or 2a. 6d. the summons would not be delivered. The right
honourable gentleman should have stated how many were actu-
ally summoned, and whether any of the persons wso had been
called on the first list were called on the second.

Mr. Hoy (as we understood) said ministers would now see
that all their efforts to conciliate by lopping off half the bishops
in Ireland, would be of little effect. (Hear.) He would support
the measure of Government, because he was placed in a dilem-
mahe must either sustain the law by having recourse to the
measure in question, or permit riotous proceedings to be the
law of Ireland. He owned, however, that these measures came
with a bad grace from his Majesty's ministers, who, when out
of office, were always exclaiming against such measures.
Mr. HUME entered his protest against the remark of the
noble lord, that this was not the proper time for discussing
this subject—that it was inconvenient and unusual to discuss
it at the present time. But this was the proper time, when
the house was voting money, to see whether those to whom
they were voting it were taking a constitutional course. lie
had.never in his life witnessed so humiliating a situation as that
of his Majesty's ministers, who, in changing their seats in that
house, had so completely changed their opinions. (Hear, hear.)
This was not to be considered an Irish question alone, it was
of importance to England, for it showed we were cut off from
every hope of relief. There was nothing would do but remov-
Wihat bane of Ireland, the church, altogether. (Hear, hear.)
What was the use of a church if it be not productive of peace
and good-will ? The people of England were called upon to
wage war against Ireland in order to support the law, as he was
told, but which was a war against liberty ; and ho told the peo-
ple of England to look to themselves. It was to be a means of
raising up the estimates • not a single man would be dispensed
with ; no expense would be reduced. He (Mr. Fiume) had on
former occasions declared that Ireland was kept in the situation
of a conquered people, and now we were to wage war against
them to support that blot of Ireland—its church establishment.
(Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL could not help rising to notice the extraor-
dinary and violent attack of the hon. member who spoke last:
With regard to a change of opinion, which the hon. member
thought so disgraceful, be declared, for himself and his col-
leagues, that he knew of no change of opinions amongst them.
When consistency of opinions was spoken of, he assumed that
general consistency of opinion and line of conduct was meant;
and in this they discovered no change. The hon. member for
ANdlese.x had seemed to suppose that they (the ministers) had
declared for the destruction of the church of Ireland; but they
bad made no such declaration, and the hon. member had no
right to call upon them to agree to plans which they had never
adopted. As to the passage which had been read from a speech
of his (Lord John Russell's) regarding Ireland, in which he
said that the system of law in that country was suited to Austria
or Prussia ; in the beginning of that very speech he said that
he considered the Insurrection Act by no means an act that
was not at times necessary; and he could give a proof of that
being his opinion, because, when that act was introduced into
the House of CoMmons, he was a member, and he did not op-
pose it. (Hear.) But there was an occasion, in the year 1621,
on which he thought it was not necessary, and therefore felt
bound to oppose it ; but he was not thereby precluded, on all
occasions, from considering whether such a measure was ne-
cessary, upon deliberating, as a member of Parliament and a
minister of the Crown, on the policy of adopting, as the least
of two evils, a temporary suspension of the liberties of the laud,
as a means of restoring the peace of the country. And if he
had been an advocate of religious liberty, he did not mean that
religious liberty which permitted a person by violence to deprive
another of the power to act according to his own discretion;
and if he was a Protestant, to take his tithes to a Protestant
clergyman, at the risk of having his house burnt and his family
destroyed. He should say nothing more about his inconsistency,
but that he denied the justice of the hon. member's phillipic.
He recommended him not to indulge in a strain so unsuited
to him, but in future to keep himself to those economical ques-
tions, in which he certainly appeared skilful, for when he rose,
as he sometimes did, to these flights, he reminded him of a cer-
tain hero in the Dunciad, who was represented climbing to the
top of a lighter, in order to take a plunge, and of whom it was
said that—

" Gaping crouds his wond'rous skill admire,
" Who, but to sink the deeper, rose the higher."
Mr. Fire strongly deprecated the measures which it was in-
tended to apply to Ireland.
The resolution was then read_a second time, and agreed to.