The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-06-28 00:00:00

with the exception of clauses 15 and 18, which were postponed !
for future consideration.
On the 19th clause, abolishing the jurisdiction of courts of
conscience, being read,
Lord LYNDHURST and Lord WYNFORD objected that the
clause would have the effect of abolishing many valuable courts,
which were the property of individuals.
The Lord CHANCELLOR said the bill did not abolish those
courts, but on the contrary allowed them a concurrent jurisdic-
tion. He intended to propose an amendment, saving from the
operation of the clause all courts exercising jurisdiction de-
rived by virtue of grants from the Crown, from the Duchy of
Cornwall, or from the Duchy of Lancaster."
At the suggestion of Lord LYNDHURST, the words " or by
prescription, or by virtue of any act of Parliament," were ad-
ded, and the clause agreed to.
Clauses from the 20th to the 28th, inclusive, were then agreed
to, with the exception of the 25th, postponed.
The house having resumed, the chairman obtained leave to
sit again to-morrow.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, JUNE 24.

•
The gallery was opened at a quarter-past twelve.
Willis's divorce bill was brought in and read a first time.
Colonel EVANS presented a petition from a licensed vic-
:nailer, named William Spicer, relative to the --conduct of
the magistracy in granting victuallers' licences.
The petition was laid on the table.
Colonel Evens gave notice that he should move to-morrow
for a committee to inquire into the case of the petitioner.
Sir S. Wita L LEY gave notice, that on the 2d of July he should
move that the signatures of the clerks of the council be attached
to all death-warrants.
Mr. T. Arrwoon presented the petition of a large meeting,
assembled at Newhall-hill, Birmingham, praying the repeal of
the corn laws, the removal of all laws restricting the importa-
tion of animal and vegetable food, and the repeal of the malt
and assessed taxes. The hon. member proceeded to show, in a
speech of very considerable length, that all the distress in the
country arose from the iniquitous system of corn laws ; that the
evils which had not their immediate rise in those impolitic re-
gulations were occasioned by the still worse monetary system ;
and that this system being the offspring of the former, the coun-
try could only be saved by a repeal of the corn laws,_ the source
of the misery, and " the vital organ of exchange" being super-
seded by a return to a paper currency.
Mr. BARRON presented a petition -from an individual in the
county of Waterford complaining of great oppression in the
collection of tithes.
The Speaker vacated the chair at 3 o'clock.
The Speaker resumed the chair at 5 o'clock.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that if any member of the Government
were present he should be anxious to ask a question, and it was
this—whether the prerogative of the Crown could be superseded
by the Recorder of the city of London; and whether it was
true, as reported, that after his Majesty had been graciously
pleased to grant a respite to a person of the name of Cox, the
Recorder had afterwards actually issued a warrant for his exe-

cution ?
Mr. HUME said that he had already given notice that on
Tuesday week he would move that the report of the select com-
mittee appointed to consider the propriety of erecting a new
House of Commons should be approved of. Should that mo-
tion be carried, it was his intention then to move that a hum-
ble addresi be presented to his Majesty, praying that he would
be graciously pleased to direct that a suitable house be erected,
and that a sum not exceeding £25,000 be appropriated to that
purpose. He believed that the estimates varied from £lB,OOO
to £50,000; but it was his opinion that a house, suitable in
every respect for the accommodation of members, could be
erected for the sum he had specified. He thought it his duty
to give this explanation of his notice, in order that lion. mem-
bers might have time to consider of it, and he trusted that on
the day when the motion came on there would be a full attend-
ance, so that the collective opinion of the house might be pro-
nounced on the subject.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
On the motion of Mr. Stanley, the order of the day was read,
and the house resolved itself ioto a committee on this bill.
Clauses 148, 149, 150, 10, a.nd 152, which were the five last
clauses of the bill. were then severally put and agreed to.
The committee then proceeded with the postponed clauses,
and on the motion of Mr. Stanley certain provisos were added
to clauses 32, 39, and 41.
On clause 54 being read, •
Mr. STANLEY proposed to strike out of this clause the words
"save and except the perpetuity purchase fund hereafter men-
tioned, and the properties and funds respectively bequeathed by
Dr. Hugh Boulter and Dr. Richard Robinson, and heretofore
vested in the said trustees and commissioners of first-fruits in
Ireland, as hercinbefore mentioned, and the interest, dividends,
and proceeds thereof respectively, and also save and except
such other funds and properties as may be hereafter bequeathed
to, or vested in, the said commissioners under this act, and their
successors, for any special purpose." The right hon. gentle-
man, in a low tone of voice, explained that this was necessary
in consequence of the omission of clause 147 from theebill.
Mr. Hum; said that he understood the right hon. gentleman
to intimate this was necessary in consequence of clause 147
having been struck out of the bill, which clause, in his (Mr.
Hume's) opinion, was the only one worth attending to, either
by that house or by the country. (Hear, hear.) As well as he
understood the explanation of the right hon. gentleman, the ob-
ject of his amendment was this,—that whereas as the law stood
at present, it was not in the power of any person to sell church
land in perpetuity, this bill went to give that power to certain
commissioners, and the amendment provided that the pro-
ceeds of the sale thus made by those commissioners should be
solely appropriated to the maintenance of the present church
establishment of Ireland. He wished to know whether he was
correct in his interpretation of the amendment, as he had
not heard distinctly a single word that had fallen from the right
hon. gentleman on the subject? •
Mr. STANLEY said that by the 147th clause the purchase mo-
nies, arising out of the sale in perpetuity of bishops' lands, was
to be left as aseeparate fund in the hands of the commissioners,
to be treated differently and appropriated to different purposes
from church property generally. Now, it was thought that the
distinction which the government had thus, in the first instance,
proposed to make between that property and other church property
was not a well-founded one, and it was therefore deemed right
and necessary, without affirming or denying the power of Par-
liament to deal with church property as it might think fit, that
such a distinction should not by this bill be created between
any portions of that property. Now clause 147 having been
omitted, if clause 54 should stand as it was, the surplus funds
which would arise in the hands of the commissioners from the
sale of bishops' lands would be excepted from the operation of
the bill. It was therefore proposed by the present amendment
to strike out that exception, and that those surplus funds should,
like the other church property specified in that clause, be ap-
propriated in substitution tmethe vest cess, and for other pur-
poses strictly ecclesiastical. The bill, thus- amended, would
leave precisely where it was the power of Parliament to dispose
of church property to purposes other than ecclesiastical, and it
would, as it was desirable that it should, leave undetermined
and untouched the question, whether it was right or whether it
was not right that such property should be appropriated to the
purposes of the state.
Mr. HUME said that if he understood the right hon. gentle-
man correctly, this bill.should be described as a bill for adding
£3,000,000 in value to the already enormous income of the over-
paid and sinecure established church of Ireland. (Hear, hear.)
T
hat was the position, the unenviable position, in which .that,
the first reformed House of Commons, was placed. It was too
much that they should be now called upon to give up
this sur-
plus to the church, seeinnsa that it had been explained by the noble
lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in thefirrsotinsstance, would and
t
also by the right hon. gentleman himself, that the appropriation
bof e this su rpus to otherreb than
fx p
aany property, y, as
ecclesiastical purposes
lands out of the
purchase deprivingof the e
which in perpetuity it would arise would be pur-
chased at present only for the lives of the incumbent The fact
was, that this act gave a new value to that description of pro-
perty, by allowing it to be sold in perpetuity, and the surplus
arisinglvas
ie t
bl from m
first thatins t sale obviously
to
explained
be
became public property, as it
by
the right hen. gen-
tleman, and by the noble lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Mr. ROBINSON had voted in the—he would call it—memorable
minority on Friday night, in order to record his disapprobation
of the disingenuous and uncandid—to use the mildest terms—
conduct of ministers In withdrawing the most important clause
of their own pledged bill.
After a few observations from Mr. Warburton, the clause
was agreed to.
On the 56th clause, the next of the postponed ones, bells..
read,
Mr. O'Coxsixee moved an amendment to the effect of wholly
repealing the 7th of Geo. IV., which, he contended,perpetuated
the worst machinery of the Irish vestry system. Without this
repeal the clause would be wholly inefpcacious as the means of
relieving the Catholics from the vestry cees.
Mr. STANLEY said that on the introduction of this bill it was
never contemplated to do away with the whole of the regulating
parochial assessments in Ireland. The object of the present
bill was to regulate the temporalities of the Irish church, and
nothing else.
Mr. O'CONNELL declared that this bill was merely a delusion,
and in support of his assertion referred to the speeches of the
right hon. gentleman and his supporters' on Friday, who, to
cover their abondonment of the clause debated on that night,
asked triumphantly whether the removal of the vestry cess was
nothing, while to-day all their boasted pledges were decided to
be good for nothing.
Sir R. PEEL never heard a question mooted where there ap-
peared so little real ground for difference of opinion. The ob-
ject of the bill was to do away with an expensive Protestant
vestry altogether. That was done, and all that was retained
was what might be effected for general purposes by Protestants
and Catholics indiscriminately.
A conversation ensued, in fhe course of which Mr. Shaw and
Sir R. H. Inglis repeated the arguments which had' fallen
from Sir R. Peel, while Mr. Lalor supported the amendment,
as did
Mr. SHEIL, who strongly reprobated the 7th George IV.,
both as to appeals and costs, and asked whether, as Parliament
had removed all other distinctions between Catholics and Pro-
testants, they would permit this one to remain.
After a few words from Mr. O'Connell, Mr. Stanley, Mr. E.
Ruthven, and another hon. member, the committee divided,
when the numbers were—
Ayes (for the original motion) lB9
Noes

Majority l4l
The clause was then agreed to.
Clauses 64 and 109 were also agreed to.
On clause 110 being. put, which enacts that the commissioners
may suspend the appointment of clerks to rectories, &c., where
divine worship shall have been intermitted for three years,
Mr. SHAW said that he had already objected to this bill that
it was, not calculated for the reform but the spoliation of the
church. The committee had now, however, come to a part of
it which was immediately connected with his second objection,
that it would cripple the energies of the Protestant church in
Ireland. There were 1,400 benefices in Ireland, and tbcrewere
about 1,100 churches. In the vear 1800, however, there were
only 700 churches. (Hear.) Since that time, therefore, about
500 churches had been built, besides about 100 licensed places
of worship, leaving not more than 100 places of worship to be
provided; in fact, there were not more than 66 places where
divine service had not been performed for three years. If the
incumbents had been removed from their benefices 30 years ago,
it was evident that these 600 places of worship would not have
been built. The effect of the clause would he to encourage ab-
senteeism, and diminish the influence of the Protestant religion
in Ireland. He suggested the omission of the clause; if not,
he should propose an amendment of it. That amendment he
would probably postpone to another stage of the bill.
Mr. STANLEY, to remove all difficulty, was willing to take the
date of the return as the period from which-the three years
should be computed. Ile therefore moved to insert the words
"three years next preceding the Ist of February, 1833."
This amendment having been agreed to,
Mr. EsTcounT moved to insert after "1833" the words, "and
shall not have been resumed and regularly performed within six
calendar months before such avoidance."
The gallery was cleared for a division, and the house divided,
when there appeared -'
For the amendment.. 63 Against it.. 237 Majority..l74
The clause, after a verbal amendment, was then agreed to,
and ordered to stand part of the bill.
The 111th clause was understood to be further postponed.
Sir R, PEEL gave notice of his intention to move, when the
schedules of the'bia came under consideration, that all livings
under V:so,) per annum should be exempted from taxation.