The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-02-15 00:00:00

that church was then settled. It might be asserted that
this measure was not a violation of this article, but ac
cording to his understanding not a single bishopric '.could
he touched without violating the pledge given at the union.
When in 1831 he opposed the reform bill, he did it, as at the
present time, because he conceived that the measures exceeded
the expectations of all friends to the state or church reforms.
He would ask the ministers what they supposed they should
gain by pandering ? (Cries of No, no.) Did the noble lord
mean to say that he was using too strong language, when he
had been sacrificing so much to the will of persons out of doors,
in bringing forward a measure pregnant with the most danger-
ous consequence to the good of Ireland and to all religious
feelings ? He had hoped from the conduct of ministers last
week, and the support they had received from conservative in-
fluence, that they would have pursued the course which they
then appeared to have marked out, and not to have given way
as they had done. By the noble lord's plan, no provision was
made for Protestant education ; on the contrary, it threw checks
upon it. The noble lord and his colleagues must feel that in
granting a measure so sweeping and destructive, they were pur-
chasing a short existence for themselves. The hon. and learned
gentlanan.(the member for Dublin) had that evening declared
his satisfaction at the measure, and at the close of his speech
he said that he hailed it as establishing a principle. (Ilear.)
A principle had certainly been established by that measure,
which might give, perhaps, a prolonged existence of some
twenty years to the church of Ireland. Under such circum-
stances, he should with all his feeble efforts oppose to the ut-
termost the plan proposed by the noble lord, however hopeless
his opposition might ultimately prove. (Cheers.) So long as
God gave him life, health, and strength, he should oppose a
measure which in his conscience he believed would tend to the
irreparable injury .of society in Ireland, and lead also to the
destruction of the established church in that country. (Cheers.)

Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said that he felt convinced that the
plan proposed would strengthen all the ties of property in
Ireland, remove religious animosities, and restore society in
that country to its proper station. He sincerely hoped that the
spirit of conciliation evinced by the hon. and learned gentle-
man (Mr. O'Connell) in his speech that night, would be met
by a corresponding feeling on the part of his countrymen at
large. He felt. assured that the proposition of his noble friend
(Lord Althorp) would lead to the happiest results. Notwith-
standing all that have been said, and all that. had been feared,
the administration had done justice to Ireland. They had
nobly redeemed their pledge, and left nothing 'unredeemed.
(Cheers.) After what had passed that night, the people • of
Ireland might rely that no tyrannical use would be made of the
acditional powers which they sought to obtain. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said that the measure brought forwaid by the
noble lord had in the greatest possible degree excited his dis-
appointment and surprise, and he should feel it his duty to can-
vass its details with the tmost scrutiny, and oppose its princi-
ple with the most decided and determined hostility. ( Hear,
hear.) He was anxious that nothing should be done with re-
gard to the prqperty of the church, for he felt that the salva-
tion of the country depended on the stability of that church.
He felt that the plan of the noble lord would have the effect of
crippling the powers of the church, and he should therefore
give it his strongest opposition.
Mr. BARRON said that the noble lord had brought forward
his plan temperately and moderately, and, if some such mea-
sure had not been proosed, the property of the Church of Ire-
land would, ere long,-have been trampled in the dust both by.
Protestant and Catholic. He concluded by expressing his con-
viction that the measure proposed by government would have
the happiest effect in Ireland.
Lord EBRINGTON expressed his entire approbation of the
present measure,. and his fullest confidence in the favourable
disposition of the government towards Ireland.
. Mr. RUTIIVEN was understood to say, that he was convinced
that the measure proposed would not have the effect which
some anticipated. lie considered that instead of retaining
twelve bishops four would be quite sufficient. (Hear and laugh-
ter.) He would move an amendment, that an inquiry should
take place in the Established Church of Ireland, to ascertain if
its revenues were not more than commensurate with services
required, and to ascertain if a portion of the surplus ought not
to be applied to the relief of the poor, &c.
Mr. D. ROCHE seconded the amendment. _

Mr. WARRE, of Hastings, said, that he was surprised at the '
amendment proposed by the hon. member, which he should
leave to the decision of the house. It seemed intended for no
other purpose but to thwart the first great salutary measure of
reform introduced by his Majesty's ministers. He was not
surprised at the opposition the measure experienced from the
hon. hart., member for Oxford, but did think he would, on
mature consideration, reverse his opinion upon the exploded
notion that the King had not the power by his coronation oath
to give his sanction to any measure recommended by the two
houses of Parliament. (clear, hear.) He (Mr. Warre) con-
sidered the measure fraught with the greatest benefits to Ire-
land, and would cement the union between the two' countries.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said, that he felt bound to remark that the
usual practice of the house was, when any alteration in religion
was proposed, that it should be referred to a committee of
whole house; indeed, there was a standing order of the house
to that effect, and he would ask the noble lord, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, if the question before the house was not re-
lating to religion? A reference to the usage of the house ou
similar occasions, would bear him out in his complaint of the
irregularity of the proceeding. Ile thought that this question,
which proposed the reduction of 10 bishops from the 22, was in-
timately connected with religion. It was true that the standing
orders were not passed: but he understood it was the intention
of the house to adhere to the established usage, and he trusted
the noble lord would refer this question to a committee of the
whole house. (Cheers.) He would now refer to the main ques-
tion before the house, in which his confidence was not much in-
creased by the acclamations with which it was received by the
house, without any consideration, as a measure likely to insure
peace and security. He could not express his confidence in
a measure which' had in contemplation the destruction of
one half of the hierarchy of the Established Church of Ire-
land. Its bearinc, upon the union and the safety of the
established church were sufficient grounds to induce the house
to consider the measure well before they sanctioned it. He
ould not attempt to debate the subject; before he gave any
opinion he should endeavour to understand the proposition.
He understood the noble lord to say that the Tithe Composition
Act of last session was to remain in force, and that other acts
were- to be passed to enforce that composition; and to enable
the landowners to get rid of the annual composition for a fixed
tax. The diocesan corporations mentioned last session was not
a bad plan, but not alluded to by the noble lord ;, and he begged
to know in whom would be invested the property itnd tithes of
the church?

Lord ALTHORP said it was not quite correct to call them cor-
porations; commissioners were to be appointed who would have
the power of managing those matters, such as repairs and build-
ings, the expense of which was now defrayed by the church
cess, and the other duties which he• had described would also
devolve on them. Those commissioners would not be in the
nature of diocesan corporations.
Sir R. PEEL.—Then to whom are the compositions for tithes
to be paid?
Lord ALTHORP (who spoke in a very low tone across the
table) was understood to state that it would be the object of
government to encourage commutation, and the proceeds would,
of course, be paid to the clergy. That was a subject, however,
which was not comprehended in the bill. The commissioners
appointed under the bill would have nothing to do with it.
Sir R. PEEL admitted that it was hardly lair to ask the noble
lord to enter upon any detailed explanation of his measure at
the present moment; and, in asking the question he had just
put to the noble lord, his object was more to point out to the
house the propriety of suspending their judgment upon the pro-
posed measure, in preference to giving it at once their entire
and unqualified approval. He understood'the whole amount of
the revenue of the Chinch was to be invested in the commission
or diocesan corporations, for the benefit of the church of Eng-
land and ecclesiastical purposes. When he came down to the
house he was prepared to admit the time had arrived when a
large and comprehensive system of reform in the church was
required, not so much to conciliate but to add to its stability.
(Hear, hear.) He was prepared to consider a plan to remedy
abuses, but not to violate property. He was opposed to the
holding of pluralities in Ireland, and anxious to adopt anv mea-
sure that would have for its object the extension of the Protes-
tant faith. There were many districts in Ireland where there
were no churches, and the time had come when those deficiencies
ought to be remedied out of the church property, and not out of
the taxes paid by the people. He would not object to apply the
tithes to strictly ecclesiastical purposes. There was no question
but great advantage would arise by the removal of the church
cess, as it had the effect of placing the clergy in hostility with
the people. But he did not see the reason why the landlord
should be relieved from any such charge; and believed that the
Ronian Catholic tenants might he relieved from this tax to the
satisfaction of the church. The noble lord proposed the abo-
lition 'of ten bishops out of twenty-two, and the house re-
ceived that communication ,with cheers. (Loud cheering.)
They had confirmed his opinion. (Cheers.) He recommended
honourable members, before they'formed a final judgment, to
inquire into the duties of the present bishops, and what would
be the duties of the twelve bishops. under the new system. Ile
was not prepared to say that twenty-two 'bishops were too
much for ireiand." ( Hear, hear.) He would recommend that
additional glebe houss be built for 'the working clergyuleu.