The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1848-06-20 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS.

On Wednesday, a special meeting of the Council was
held, for the purpose of considering the propriety of pro-
ceeding with the Rivingtou Pike water scheme.
Prior to commencing the business of the day,
The MAYOR read a resolution of the magistrates, urging
upon the aldermen and councillors the imperative neces-
sity of having their respective constituencies sworn in as
special constables, and stating that two magistrates would
attend in each of the wards, for the purpose ofadminister-
ing the necessary oath. He said that the magistrates had
the power of compelling every respectable inhabitant to
be sworn in under a penalty of £lO ; but a recourse to
that extremity had never been necessary here, and he
hoped and believed it would never be necessary in the
loyal town of Liverpool. (Applause.)
Mr. S. HOLM E stated that his speech at the last Council
relative to the Messrs. Willoughby, of Birkenhead, had
been misreported. What he did say was, that the Messrs.
Willoughby had only paid 2 or 21 per cent. for the altera-
tions made at the Birkenhead slip at their request, when
they were bound to pay 7 per cent. according to the terms
of their lease.

THE WATER QUESTION.
Mr. Driffield then proceeded to read the proceedings of
the Water Committee. It appeared that Mr. M Donald
had estimated the quantity of water in the wells of the
late Harrington Company at 3,000,000 of gallons per diem,
and that Mr. Hawkesley had estimated it et about 1,800,000
gallons, and that in consequence of these differences of
opinion, Messrs. MacGregor and Kennedy had been ap-
pointed, as two disinterested and respectable parties, to
ascertain the actual yield of the wells, and to report. The
result of their experiments, three times made at each sta-
tion, was stated as follows :
Hotham-street Station.—First series of experiments-
-414,274 gallons per day ; 72 cwt. of coal consumed. Se-
cond series of experiments at the same station, after the
wel had been down nearly a month-358,637 gallons ; 72
cwt. of coal. Third series at the same station, at higher
level-225,674 gallons ; 39/ cwt., the engine working
twelve hours a day.

Water-street Station.—First series of experiments-
-619,861 gallons ; 880 cwt. of coal consumed. Second se-
ries, after the well was down a month-599,95S gallons ;
91 cwt. of coal. Third series, at the higher level, the en-
gine working twelve hours-406,929 gallons ; 72 cwt. of
coal. _

Soho-street Station.—First series of experiments, at
lowest level-666;633 gallons ; 63 cwt. of coal consumed.
Second series-644,119 gallons. ; 72 cwt. of coal. Third
series-478,754 gallons; 57 cwt. of coal, the engine work-
ing twelve hours.
Bevington-bush Station.—First series of experiments-
-360,288 gallons ;33 cwt. of coal consumed. For the
second and third experiments the same quantity of water
was allowed for this station, and the same quantity of coal.
Windsor Station.—First series of experiments-809,831
gallons ; 54 cwt. of coal consumed. Second series-
-804,291 gallons; 55 2-10ths cwt. of coal. Third series,
the engine working night and day-792,545 gallons ; 49
cwt. of coal. . . _

Green-lane Station.—First series of experiments-
-1,406,531 gallons ; 52 cwt. of coal and 26 cwt. of slack
consumed. Second series—no experiments. Third se-
ries—no experiments, the quantities-being given the same
as before. _ _

These made the total quantity of water in these wells
at lowest level and on the first series of experiments,
4,277,418 gallons ; at the second series of experiments
4,173,824 gallons, and at the third series of experiments
3,670,724 gallons.
It was then stated that, deducting the condensed water,
the actual supply was only 2,500,000 gallons of water that
could be delivered to the inhabitants, being about seven
gallons a-day for 450,000 inhabitants, and the Water
Committee, under these circumstances, recommended the
Council to proceed without delay to the Rivington Pike
scheme, the quantity of water to be found in the red
sandstone of Liverpool being entirely insufficient for the
wants of the . inhabitants
_ _ .

After two memorials from ward meetings on the water
subject bad been read,
Mr. LACE moved the confirmation of the proceedings.
He observed that the late experiments bad all shown that
the red sandstone would be pumped dry in a little time,
and very naturally so, because the rains from heaven never
descended into it ; and these results had fully verified the
professional opinion of Professor Ansted, who had exa-
mined the strata, and also the opinion of Mr. Cunning-
ham; and, in fact the committee of the House of Com-
mons were so fully satisfied that an adequate supply from
the neighbourhood of Liverpool proper could not be ob.
tained, that they declined to hear any more witnesses.
What, then, were the council to do ? Were they to dot
all round Liverpool with wells ? Now, at Rivington Pike
the rain guages h d shown that there were 25,000,000 of
gallons daily to be obtained, and with the exception of
Aberdeen, the wat2r was the purest that could be ob-
tained. Some said—" Oh, but you are going to give us
rain water !" Why, the people of Liverpool were now
drinking rain water and also the water running from pri-
vies and water-closets. (Oh ! oh," from Mr. Parker.)
Perhaps Mr. Parker did not know that in drinking Liver-
pool water he might be drinking the distilled essence of a
water-closet. (Loud laughter, and applause.) Then, it
was said, "Oh ! but you will tax us heavily.' Now, he
did not believe that the taxes would be heavy : there
might be heavy expenses connected with the Pike scheme
in the first instance, but afterwards they would be light,
and the council must recollect that they had, many
months ago, agreed to proceed with the Pike scheme by
majorities of 28 to 4. Besides, the council must recollect
that they were under a penalty if they did not keep up a
supply of water; and Mr. Harmood Banner had candidly
admitted that a continuous supply was not obtainable from
the Harrington wells. Then, with reference to the use of
salt water for watering streets and extinguishing fires, the
shopkeepers would, in the first place, object to it, and in
the next the insurance companies would not insure if it
were used, He, therefore, recommended the council to
Proceed with the Pike scheme as the most feasible scheme
that had been propounded, and he observed that if there
was any real ground of complaint, it ought to be against
those who had compelled the corporation to purchase the
Harrington and Bootle Water Companies. He concluded
by defending the conduct of the water company through-
out the whole of these protracted proceedings.
Mr. TINNE seconded the motion, and slid that, though
his constituents had requested him to pause before he pro-
ceeded with the Pike scheme, he regretted he could not
comply with their request. The Pike scheme had had to
encounter opposition from many quarters, and particularly
from those who wished the corporation to supply the town
upon the old cistern system, Some were for the Bala
Lake system, and others were for using the river water ;
but he believea the Pike scheme to be the best that the
council could adopt.
Mr. JosiAs BOOKER rose to move an amendment. He
admitted that the Water Committee and the Town-Clerk
had discharged their duty in Liverpool and London with
great assiduity and ability. He doubted whether the i
Council were acquainted with the provisions of the Ri-
vington Pike Act. He then read some of the clauses of
the act, to show that 74 millions of gallons of water must
be sent down the Douglas and the Yarrow, and two mil.
lions of gallons to a canal, and large compensation was to
be given to mill-owners, and bridges and other works to
be made, and all at the expense of the Corporation.
(Hear, hear.) Now a dry summer would impose enor-
mous expenses upon the Liverpool Corporation, because
large pecuniary compensation, something like ten pounds
sterling a day, must be made to some of the mill-owners
if they ran short of the quantity of water stipulated to be
given them. He read the opinion of Mr. Wickstead, to
the effect that the anticipated supply from the Pike would
most probably fall short in dry seasons, and he (Mr.
Wickstead) was of opinion that the pipes from the Pike
to Liverpool alone would cost as much as Mr. Hawksley
had estimated the whole expense of the scheme at. He
read an extract from the pamphlet published some few
years ago, by Mr. S. Holme, in reply to Mr. Harmood
Banner, in which the writer stated that he Lad a ult.t,
abundant welt io Liverpool ; so abundant that he was
throwing away 80,000 gallons of the purest water daily,
and that no matter how the Harrington wells were
pumped, his (Mr. Holme's) well could not be drained.
The Pike scheme was costing £630,000; the new sewer-
age of the town would cost £635,000 ; altogether the
cost would be £2,000,000. Want of employment was
creating Liverpool chartists, and the overtaxed shop-
keepers of the town were to be commiserated. He
moved, as an amendment, that the whole question be
referred to Mr. Robert Stephenson, to investigate fully,
and report upon the locality from which the best
supply of water could be obtained.
The MAYOR said that Mr. Stephenson's opinion had
been already obtained by the Water Committee.
Mr. HARBORD seconded the amendment in a speech of
some length, in the course of which he advanced a great
number of objections against the Pike scheme, principally
upon the ground of the impurity of the water, there being
a great quantity, as he said, of vegetable and other dele-
terious matter to be found in it. _ _ _

Mr. SAMUEL HOLME followed, in a very able and elo-
quent speech in defence of the Pike scheme. He reviewed
the three schemes which had been agitated—the increase
of the supply from local wells, the Bala Lake scheme, and
the Rivington Pike scheme—and he had no hesitation in
advocating the latter scheme for several reasons. One
was, that it would in the end realize an annual profit to
the inhabitants. He was of opinion that the purity of
the water there had been established beyond all question,
by the scientific and practical men who had been employed
to test it, and that Liverpool would be for ever disgraced
in the eyes of the country if the Corporation stopped short
now, and were satisfied with an intermittent supply.
Upon the motion of Mr. Hodgson, seconded by Mr.
Parker, the debate was adjourned until Friday.

The adjourned meeting of the Council on the water
question took place on Friday, the Mayor in the chair.
Prior to the chair being taken, it transpired that Mr.
Harbord had caused copies of a letter, written by himself
and addressed to Mr. Holme, to be distributed in the
room. The circumstance was noticed by the Mayor, who
remarked that it was quite an irregular proceeding.
Mr. DAVID HODGSON said, that the great opposition
to the scheme of the Council was, on account of the enor-
mous expense it would entail on the town. The conduct
recently pursued by the Council had indeed produced an
amount of agitation, and a want of confidence in them,
in regard to financial matters, which threatened an almost
dismemberment of society. (Hear, hear.) He did not
object to the improvement of the town, and the outlay of
money for general purposes; but it should always be
borne in mind that when rates were laid there should be
a consideration as to the class likely to be called on to
to pay them, and their ability to do so. If anything
tended to destroy the confidence of the Council, lie
thought the universal feeling of the public against them
on the question then under discussion would tend to do
so. They would-, De ren assured, be/ 2155afted -from
Council-day to Council-day, till they tried to remedy the
excesses in the rates they had laid—(hear, hear)—ex-
penses which would not have been felt in the same way
twelve months or two years ago as they are now. It was
perfectly notorious to every man that the distress was
unprecedentedly great ; and as a proof of it, he could
state that there was actually more plate offered by persons
of distinction, in order to raise money temporarily, arising
out of the depression of trade, than could be taken up by
parties in the habit of engaging in such transactions. He
had listened with great attention to the discussions on
the water question. anxious to hear what sound reasons
had been given for agitating the constituencies and de-
stroying the confidence which ought to be given to the
committee, and he was prepared to have voted against a
continuance of it. though it might appear that they were
stultifying themselves ; but he was bound to say the ar-
guments and statements confirmed the good and judicious
conduct of the engineers and committee. They had acted
wisely and well. Though it would require with him
strong grounds for opposing the decision of the commit-
tee, he did say that circumstances might arise to induce
a change of opinion ; still he thought no great degree of
popularity would rest on those who voted for carrying out
the scheme, and he had heard it said that not one man
who should vote for it would be returned to the neat
Council. He had cautioned the person making the de-
claration not to use threats, as not one of them would
have any effect on him, and, he believed, none on the
Council. The Council was quite right in the course it
had adopted. and so far as he had yet heard, he was pre-
pared to give it his support. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. WOODRUFFE said the question was a most impor-
tant one, affecting the property and health of the inhabi-
tants, and more particularly the poorer classes ; and he
was not yet convinced that they had not a supply of
water, and could give that supply. As to the cost of
procuring water from other sources, and whether the en-
gineers were correct in their calculations, he would leave
the matter to more competent persons. There was, how-
ever, a strong feeling out of doors, that the thing was
only a job. That'feeling extended to every person in the
ni greatered
portionward he re
orfe pt
hes einntheadb.i
taanndt
s,
oh
fe
tbheel iteovwe dn,. a mHoen
egos amongst
ea
that, if the Council adopted the decision of the commit-
tee, they would do an injustice to themselves ; and that
the Public would. not be satisfied until they had further

time. If the scheme were to go on they could not lose
anything by a delay of a month, neither would the truth
lose anything; and he put it to them as gentlemen of
common sense and justice, in the name of the ratepayers,
was there any hurry, and was there a pressing emergency
—(yes, yes)—why they should thrust it down the throats
of the people. There was, as he had said, a strong feeling
out of doors, and he hoped the Council would consider
the claim made by the inhabitants, accede to their wishes,
and postpone the matter for a month. He had heard a
great deal for and against the scheme in Council, and a
great many opinions out of doors, but he was not satis-
fied ; and he, with his colleague Mr. Thompson, went to
Rivington Pike, to ascertain, if possible, the quality and
quantity of water. They not only examined all the
streams, but brought samples of the water, which Mr.
Thompson had with him, and could produce if necessary.
It had been said the water stank, and was not in sufficient
quantity for the supply of the town. They walked a dis-
tance of twelve or fourteen miles, tasted the brooks and
rivers, and took tests ; they also took occasion, when they
saw a house or met with an inhabitant, to ask a question
as to the quality and quantity of the water. With one
exception they all agreed that there was an abundance of
water, and that the quality was good likewise. (Hear.)
Mr. Woodruffe then mentioned the names of several per-
sons who had resided at the Pike for fifty years, whose
testimony bore • out what he had stated as to the quality
and quantity, and they also added that they never saw
the stream dry, even in the greatest heat of the summer.
(Hear, hear.) .In what he stated, he alluded to the prin-
cipal stream. He had no object in view but getting at a
knowledge of the truth, and he felt himself bound to give
that truth whether for or against himself. (Hear, hear.)
A gentleman, who was a medical officer of the Choriton
Union, had assured him the water was good, and there was
plenty of it, and so highly did he value it that he was
about to bring the Pike water through pipes to his house,
instead of using his own well. He had made some en-
quiries as to the Rivington Pike scheme being offered to
Manchester, but from all he could learn, it appeared the
plan alluded to, and which was brought under the notice
of the Manchester authorities, was that of the South
Lancashire Water Works Company, who, by their act of
parliament obtained powers to purchase the Turton reser-
voir, and get the drainage of the Rivington Pike district.
He thought the course he proposed of a month's delay
could not make any difference ; and when they considered
it was at the wish of the ratepayers, who were to find the
money for the works, and they might be the sufferers,
there should not be any objection made to it. The rate-
payers at present felt severely the pressure of the times,
and all the money would be taken from theii hard earn-
ings. He could bear testimony from the experience of
his own business as to the pressure of the times, and the
inability of the people to pay rates. The pledges now
came from people of influence and the most respectable
portions of society, and if he had £20,000 he could lend
it on boxes of plate, and valuable security. (Hear, hear.)
He appealed to the council that they should, instead of
deciding the question hastily, give some consideration to
the rate payers, and he asked them in the name of the
constituency he represented, who held a large meeting,
and were unanimous in favour of a postponement. He
did not say they would not have the scheme, but an op-
portunity would be afforded of getting other opinions and
further information on the subject. If they did not do
that they would never satisfy them, and it was not a time
to go in direct opposNon to the great body of the rate-.
payers. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PARKER next spoke for forty minutes, in opposi-
tion to the Pike scheme, which he said " was very like a
whole," an expression, perhaps, better understood out of
door than in the council. The dramatis personce of the
drama were—first, the chief engineer, versed in hydraulics,
Mr. Hawksley ; the next was Captain Francis, a gentleman
whose name was not known to be in the military or navy
list; and the third was Captain Francis's son, who took the
guage. He complained that one servant of the Corpora-
tion—Mr. Hawkesley—(No, no, from Mr. Lace.)—Well,
at all events he was in the pay of the Corporation, and had
been allowed to send in reports to the Water Committee,
which were read, whilst Mr. M`Donald's was put under the
table. That was neither fair nor just, and he took that as
a specimen of the unfairness with which the Water Com-
mittee had acted. With regard to the capability of the
Pike yielding the necessary quantity of water, he thought
Mr. Woodruffe had made a straightforward statement, and
he would not support Mr. Booker's amendment. Mr.
Harbordhad been attacked by the " Goliah of the Council,"
Mr. Holme, who had knocked him down, and smashed all
the gallipots in his surgery, for having " changed his
views" upon the water question. (Laughter.) But he
(Mr. Parker) remembered Mr. Holme doing the same, but
" under different circumstances," for it should be borne in
mind that, in 1847, when the question was mooted as to
whether the salary of a certain officer connected with the
Corporation should be raised, Mr. Holm made a powerful
speech against it, whilst in 1848 he changed his opinion and
voted for that very measure. The committee seemed to
think that Mr. Hawksley was invulnerable ; but surely he
had not been dipped in the Stygian Lake, and there was,
perhaps, still room left for one arrow to reach him. Mr.
Parker here read a letter of Mr. HaWksley's, in which the
latter had stated that the present works were sufficient for
present purposes ; and he stated that, till it could be proved
that they could not get sufficient water from under their
feet, he could not be satisfied. A great deal had been said
about the Green-lane water ; but he (Mr. Parker) had
been amongst a number of old women, who washed, and
they told him that, by the use of that water, there was a
saving, as compared with the Harrington water, of soap
used in washing. (Hear.) Mr. Parker next paid a high
compliment to Mr. Newlands, and complained that that
gentleman had not been consulted upon the water question.
He thought that the Water Committee had placed that
gentleman in a wrong position in not consulting him, and
it was generally thought that the reason was, that though
his opinions were .itot gPnorally Is.auwll, lie was considered
as an " anti-Pike man." (Hear.)
Mr. MANN supported the water committee. In the
first place, he doubted the possibility of obtaining a suf-
ficient supply of water from our own locality ; and next,
he was favourable to the Pike scheme, believing it to be
the best yet brought before the public, and if it were
carried through, the original cost would be all, the public
being merely called upon to pay, in the shape of a reduced
water rate, what they bad hitherto been paying to the
companies as a water rent.

Mr. EARLE, after a satirical fly at Mr. Parker, our local
engineers, and a portion of the press, contended that the
best talent had been called into requisition by the water
committee, and
by that they ought to abide. After a some-
what wild and incoherent harangue, verging upon person-
alities, he said that great injury would arise if the Pike
scheme was postponed. He wished that the unemployed
operatives should be set to work upon it.
Mr. Nrc9L supported the Pike scheme. He thought
the water from that locality must of necessity be purer
than that which was derived from the downfal in and near
Liverpool.
Mr. DANSON followed on the same side of the ques-
tion, entering into a variety of statistics with a view to
show from the charges of the water companies, and the
cost, if the corporation worked the present wells, that
the Rivington scheme was the most desirable. If the
council carried out the scheme, he felt satisfied that here-
after the public would be exceedingly thankful.
After cries of " Divide !" Mr. HUGH HORNBY urged a
postponement, in order that the inhabitants of Liverpool
might have the means of
iorming a deliberate judgment
before the Council committed itself. If we had not a suf-
ficient supply of water, was the course proposed the best
to supply the deficiency ? He hoped, however, that the
committee would consent to a postponement of the
motion, seeing that it would form no Impediment to their
hereafter reconsidering the question.
Mr. JAMES HOLME followed with similar remarks. Mr.
J. B. LLOYD also supported the committee, as did Mr.
V. HIGGINS, Mr. TOBIN, and Mr. HOLT.
Mr. LACE, in replying, said that all the committee
asked as yet was that their engineer might go and survey
the land, ask different parties at what rate works could be
done ; and then they should come to that Council and re-
port whether or not it was expedient to go on with those.
The. numerous complaints of deficiency of supply received
by the health and water committees showed the utmost
necessity for proceeding ; let gentlemen remember that
a month's delay might cause the expense to be £50,000
more. It would take a month or six weeks to make the
necessary surveys, and if Europe was settled in that time,
iron would go up in price, and they would lose by that
and other matters £50,000. He concluded by a defence
of Mr. Hawksley, and the refutation of two assertions in
the Mercury of Friday.
A division then took place on Mr. Booker's amend-
ment, which was lost by a majority of 18, namely,
FOR MR. BOOKER'S AMENDMENT :—Couricillors--
Messrs. W. Walthew, J. Woodruff, R. S. Henderson, T.
Toulmin, T. Royden, H. G. Harbord, J. Rogers, G.
Booker, T. Kaye, R. C. Gardner, W. Bennett, J. Booker,
and Thomas Lloyd. Aldermen—Messrs. J. Cooper and
J. Procter.-15.

AGAINST IT.—CouncilloriMessrs. F. Shand, J. Thom-
son, Jas. Holme, W. Rathbone, J. G. Morris, W. Pres-
ton, James Stitt, R. B. Hill, T. Littledale, jun., J. Tyrer,
H. Hornby, J. Aikin, G. Holt, J. A. Tinne, S. Holme,
J. A. Tobin, V. Higgins, H. Danson, J. B. Lloyd, W.
Earle, J. Parker, J. Plumpton, G. H. Lawrence, A.
Lace, R. Benn, and W. Mann. Aldermen—Messrs. D.
Hodgson, James Lawrence, W. Nicol, E. Molyneux, J.
H. Turner, T. Chilton, and the Mayor.-33.
Mr. WOODRUFF then moved as a second amendment,
the postponement of the question for a month.
Mr. THOMPSON seconded the motion. _

Mr. COOPER spoke against the Pike scheme. He had
been born and brought up within a mile of the intended
reservoir. Some of the best and some of the worst water
might be had there; in summer the rivulets were shallow,
and in winter they occasionally poured down in torrents
as wide as the hall in which they sat, and no bank of a
reservoir which Mr. Hawksley might be able to construct
would be able to restrain them.

Mr. BENNETT contended that the aupply to be obtained
from Rivington was greatly exaggerated. It would be
advisable to postpone the matter for a month, and to
bring Mr. Hawksley before the Council.
Mr. RATHBONE in a warm, and rather ill-natured,
speech, supported the scheme, stating that there was a
Company contemplated who, upon the evidence now
before Parliament, would take up these water-works, if
the Council did not proceed with them.
Mr. D. HODGSON moved an adjournment, which was
seconded by Mr. PARKER.
Mr. LACE said there was no idea whatever of taxing the
inhabitants ; the only object was to carry the inqiury
through.
The Council then proceeded to the vote, when there
appeared for the amendment 20, and for the original
motion 24, upon which the Mayor declared the motion
carried.
For the original motion :—Councillors James Holme,
Rathbone, Morris Stitt, Hill, T. Littledale, jun., Tyrer,
Hornby, Aikin, Tinne, S. Holme Tobin, Denson, J. B.
Lloyd, Earle, G. H. Lawrence, Lace, and Mann; with
Aldermen D. Hodgson, Nicol, Molyneux, Turner, Chil-
ton and the Mayor.
For the atnendnient :—Councillors Wahhew, Thomson

Woodruff, Preston, Holt, Henderson, Toulmin, Royden,
Harbord, Rogers, Kaye, Gardner, Higgins, Bennett
Parker, Booker, and Thomas Lloyd ; with Alderme
J. Lawrence, Cooper, and Procter.

SECONIJI EDITION.

cLoffice, Two of

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