The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1843-06-02 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS—TuEsDAY

Lord PALNIERSTON took occasion regret that the post-
ponement of a motion of Mr. Cochrane's relative to our
financial intercourse with Greece prevented him from setting
Sir R. Peel right in an assertion he had made on a former
evening to the effect that the interest on the Greek loan had
been guaranteed by the late government. This was an error,
for that loan was guaranteed by the government of 1830, of
which Sir R. Peel was a leading member.

THE IRELAND ARMS BILL.
Mr. C. BULLER said that the effect of the bill would be to
deprive the virtuous of arms, while it would have no effectlin
preventing those disposed to commit outrage from procuring
the means of doing so. He did not regard the bill itself as a
matter of importance, being only a continuation of an old
law which both parties in that house had supported, but in
one point of view it was important. It might have been
easily passed by the late government without any particular
jealousy, because the late Government ruled by the feelings
of the majority, while the present government ruled accord-
ing to the feelings of the minority. The repeal of the union
ought to be deprecated by every one, and more particularly
by the people of Ireland. How then was it that the people
of Ireland wished to repeal that union? How was it that
the poor and weak wished to separate themselves from the
strong and wealthy ? How was it that for the last two cen-
turies the misgovernment of Ireland had been the scandal of
Christendom ? How was it that while all Europe was ad-
vancing, the condition of the people of Ireland had been
getting worse ? The causes of the misery of Ireland were
chiefly the conduct of the landlords, and the existence of the
Established Church upon the endowments of their ancestors
intended for the instruction of the people, but which were
expended in disgraceful absenteeism or more deplorable re-
sidence. Ireland had been quiet under the late administra-

Lion, because it sought to conciliate the people ; but the pre-
sent Government on its accession had alleged itself to the
Orange party in that country, and had elevated judges to the
bench in whom the people had no confidence, and thus lost

.
for itself public confidence by the proceeding. In one year
and a half the right hon. baronet had alienated from England
the hearts of the people of Ireland, and even at the present
moment, whatever good for Ireland he had in store, he kept
it carefully concealed, and only presented it with an arms
bill.

Mr. SHAW looked upon Ireland to be in a most unsatis-
factory and alarming condition, the lower classes being in a
state of unnatural excitement, while those above them were
despondent and dejected. He referred to the temperance
movement, and spoke highly of the motives of Father
Mathew, and said that in his own jurisdiction he found that
within the last two years crime had decreased one-third.
.It
appeared, however, that everything which in other countries
would be esteemed a blessing beearne in Ireland an addi-
tional curse, and thus the temperance movement with its
badges and medals was made use of by designing people to
render more perfect a system of organisation for other pur-
poses. He did not apprehend any danger of an outbreak in
Ireland, for I\lr. O'Connell, as he himsel: declared, " knew
a trick worth two of that." His whole policy was to keep
the people in order while keeping them also in a constant
agitation by causing them to meet in myriads. The real
danger to be apprehended was not the repeal of the union,
but the organisation of the entire country under the plea of
repeal. The danger was in fact the combination of the Ca-
tholic clergy with the mass of the people of Ireland for the
purpose of subverting the rights of property in Ireland.
While he said this he felt bound in justice to say that the
most alarmed of all classes at the present state of things, and
the most anxious for its termination, were the respectable
Roman Catholics. He supported the second reading of the
bill.

V. STUART supported the bill, which he hoped would
be amended in committee.
Sir H. W. BARRON moved the adjournment of the debate
which, after some discussion, was agreed to.

t. but

MOTIS,_
jf COM
___

lueurrenee
'ensure the
In 1840 an

• to
objection

or tuc
i. He contended
Land

oneaninF

church ,1
,iversal

'lots. 'l'o
rty of al)-

, -
would be

.eceding

lad been

t country

lad to

v him

arfor England

trtiality

udICPtI

mnde, it
from all imputation

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—WEDNASDAY.
Mr. Wyss, who resumed the debate on the Irish Arms
Bill, contended that the wrongs of Ireland might be redress-
ed and the people reclaimed by improving the relations be-
tween landlords and tenants ; by encouraging public works,
and thus giving employment to the people; and by promoting
everything which might conduce to the happiness and pros-
perity of the country. It was a mistake to suppose that the
organisation for repeal was a thing of yesterday ; for, in point
of fact, it originated in the struggle for Catholic emancipa-
tion. He imputed no blame to the Government for not

promoting their political opponents, for no government
would go upon any such system as that of neglecting its
friends, for the advantage of its enemies, but he did blame

the Government for neglecting opportunities of advancing
frona the ranks of their friends individuals who would have
proved acceptable to the people of Ireland.
Lord JOCELYN argued that the bill was necessary in order
to preserve social security in Ireland, and that as long as the
country continued to be excited by agitators so long would it
be necessary to adopt stringent measures to preserve the
peace. The much boasted tranquility of Ireland during the
late administration was to be entirely attributed to the
operation of the Lichfield House compact.
Mr. J. O'BRIEN' said it was a reproach to Government
and to the Parliament that Ireland after nearly half a cen-
tury of legislative union should be still treated more as a
subjugated province than as an integral part of the empire.
They had had a sufficient trial of the inefficacy of a coercive
policy, and it would therefore be well to reverse the policy,
and trust to the affections of the Irish people. They should
not be led away by the idea that this formidable array of the
Irish people was to be entirely attributed to the ambition of
a few individuals, for they had the experience of history to
teach them that no intelligent people could be similarly

excited unless by the stimulus of the conviction of actual
wrong. The people of Ireland felt that the spirit of class
legislation still existed, and that the Roman Catholics were
still a proscribed race. The hon. member enumerated many
of the grievances complained of by the people of Ireland, and
concluded by expressing his determination to oppose the bill

before the house at every stage.
Colonel VERNER contrasted the conduQt of orangemen
with that of the repealers. The former instantly dissolved
their associations on the first declaration of the goverment
against them, while the Repeal Association announced its

detcrmination to persevere in opposition to the governmen

The people of Ireland had a thirst for arms, which should be
controlled by such a bill as the one on the table.
The O'CoNon DON could not support an arms bill for
Ireland, the obnoxious provisions of which would not be
tolerated in England. The maintenance of order in Ireland
was to be chiefly attributed to the Roman Catholic priests,
whose loyalty was undoubted, though they had joined in the
repeal agitation in utter despair of obtaining by any other
means a remedy for the wrongs of their country. After such
an expression of his opinions he thought the Lord Chancellor
of Ireland would be as fully justified in dismissing him from
the commission of the peace as he thought himself in remov-
ing Lord Ffrench or any other of those magistrates who had
been deprived of the commission.
Mr. liAw its advocated the necessity of adopting a system
of impartiality in the administration of the law in Ireland,
and of conciliating the affections of the people by elevating
to office those whose names would inspire confidence in the
good spirit and intentions of the executive. He protested
against the dismissal of magistrates for exercising the consti-

taionsl right of attending public meetings to obtain the re-
peal of an act of parliament. Deeming the provisions of the
hill an indication of the altered spirit of the English govern-
ment towards Ireland, be would join in opposing it to the
sr, mem- utmost.

Sir J. GRA ILA 11 admitted that nothing less than very grave
reasons could have induced him to interfere with the con-
stitutional right to carry arms, but the present state of Ire-
land was a sufficient justification for the bill before the house.
The Arms Bill was first imposed on Ireland by its domestic
parliament, and bad been continued almost uninterruptedly
for a period of half a century. It was a gross misrepresenta-
tion to say that the bill went the length of disarming the peo-
ple of Ireland, for it only went the length of enabling the
officers of justice to trace the criminal if the crime had
been committed by such registered arms. He con-
tended that the appointments made by the present go-
vernment in Ireland were, as far as possible, impartial;
and they had actually incurred much odium by their ex-
ertions in favour of the education of the Irish people.
It was true that there might be unreasonable prejudices
against some of the judicial appointments, but surely the
long standing of Chief Justice Pennefather, and of Judges
Lefroy, Blackburn, and Jackson, came in aid of their un-
doubted qualifications for the positions to which they had
been raised. The government was resolved to carry out the
administration of the affairs for the benetit of the people of
Ireland, and not of a party, of which the displeasure of that
Marty was a sufficient proof. He defended the established
Church of Ireland and its clergy from the aspersions cast upon
it and them by Mr. C. Buller; and contended that the pea-
santry of Ireland had reason to be thankful that they had
such friends as the clergy to supply the place of an absentee
nobility and gentry. With respect to a bill like the one on
the table, it was observed that Sir Samuel Romilly had said
that it would he madness to pass such a measure ; but lie
would say, looking at the present state of Ireland, that it
would be cowardice and treachery to the interests of Ireland
not to pass it.
The Earl of LiSiTOWICI. said that if the bill had been merely
a continuation of the former act he should not oppose it, but
it had clauses which rendered it peculiarly offensive to the
people of Ireland, and as it was professed to he the result of
the agitation for the repeal of the union he was the more
firmly opposed to it on that account, though not an ae,vocate
for that measure. Still, seven eighths of the Irish public
were now in favour of repeal, and they should rather seek to
further irritate them by measures of coercion. The root of
all the evils of Ireland was, that the Established Church in
that country was the church of the minority and not of the
majority, and those evils would, in his opinion, be aggra-
vated by this bill, which he would therefore decidedly op-

pose.
Mr. ROEBUCK said, that in respect to this bill the present
Government was treading in the steps of preceding Govern-
ments for centuries back ; and it was a remarkable fact, that
when the bill wag that night under discussion there was not
one member of the late administration present. When he
first saw the present bill he was indignant at several of its
provisions, and made enquiry as to the nature of the provi-
sions of the previous acts, when he found that the original
fact was not a " Saxon insult," hut the emanation of an Irish
parliament ; and the Irish members during the late adminis-
tration had, by supporting the re-enactment of the Arms
Bill, given to him a warning never to trust an Irish member
when the interests of Ireland were at stake. Ireland was a
conquered country—the reformation had not been successful
there, and some of the greatest friends of liberty in England
had been the greatest tyrants in Ireland. He was opposed to
the present bill, because it was directed against all the princi-
ples of good government. The greatest evil of Ireland was
the rampant church establishment of the minority of the peo-
ple, whose revenues should be otherwise appropriated. The
hon. member subsequently used the term " robbery," u ap-
plied to the exactions made on the people for the support of
the church, and the expression having met with some dis-
approbation, he said he used it in no offensive sense,
for he proposed robbing himself—robbery of the Irish
Church Establishment, the church of the minority; and he
wished to use terms not to be misunderstood—to use them
above board : for he would apply the revenues of the Church
to the maintenance of the religion of the majority, or else
apportion them amongst all sects indifferently. The hon.
and learned gentleman then asked what the Government
proposed to do. Was the English army to be enlisted
against the whole people of Ireland? Were they to be called
pow to pass coercion bills ; or were they to be told that it
'as high treason to discuss the repeal of an act of Par-
' The right lion. baronet at the head of the Go-
vei-ii,e,et was placed in a most difficult position. His
Government was afraid of doing justice to Ireland, because
wish to preserve the support of the dominant minority
F. lie believed the right lion. baronet would
rid of that support, which was in reality
i. Let him then follow out the dictates of his
ed spirit. Knowing what was right—feeling
him do justice to Ireland, and he need

l'Em. said, he should, at a more fitting period, he
d to prove that he had redeemed his pledge of con-
the affairs of Ireland in a spirit of conciliation and
The chief charge against them was the ap-
of Mr. Sergeant Jackson and Mr. Lefroy to the
Jut in the same breath in which the charge

P. 4 admitted that their judicial conduct was
was aurrrked ►flat honourable

tiremern tbo oppogition benchti tild not dlepfity come
liter kips of libogiity they thus SO tho fiCtertl: