The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-05-07 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

The MAYOR :--1311t you cannot : it. cannot be a ground
of and th-refore it is not competent for
any mem err ot the council to urge it .1A one.
Mr. PARKER ICS'led to know from th.:l Town-clerk
wh her tine Orange Society was a legal society, or whe-
ther it was n

Mr. THOMPSON' thought it better to postpone the latter
question ler the present.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE said that no one wool I think of
dismissing the magistrates because they belenge3 to the
Ref er Carlton Club., and that he certainly should
not be the person to vote for Mr. Harbord's removal
because he belonged to the Orange Society.
Mr. l'nomPsoN extiressel his regret that neither Mr.
Gladstone nor any of the other magistrates in council had
answered Mr. Harbord's question. He expected that the
magistrates' feeling the position in which they had placed
the Watch Committer, would have given every informa-
tion in their power. That committee felt that they were
placed M a very strange position by th' proceedings of the
magistrates, which had taken place behind their hacks ;
and the only information they could get, as to why the
proceedings were not communicated, was that the chair-
man of the committee (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) was out
of town—a reason which conveyed an imputation of a
grave nature on the deputy-chairman, Mr. Aspitiall. He
could assure the naagist at es that there was not, aud never
had been, any wish on the p ,rt of the Watch Committee
to act otherwise than cord ally with them. The proceed-
ings of the magistrates, however, had assumed such an
appearance as made one suppose that they were not desi-
rous of acting with the comm ttee. This sort of aliena-
tion amongst the two bodies might be prejulicial to the
peace of the town. Quarrels had already beeti springing
up between the members of the force in consevence of
the recent conduct of the migistrates; and instinces
could be cited to show the unsatisfactory state of things,
caused by the interference of that body. It was on these
grounds that he hoped the magistrates in council, or some
one or their behalf, would offer some explanation for their
proceedings, the causes which had led to those pr oceedings,
and also the reasons why they had not been communi-
cated to the Watch Committee. (Hear.) Before he sat
down, he wished to give the maz,istrates the following
piece of information :—The committee had written to the
Erstriet Master of the Orange Lodges, for information
with regard to a procession in the town last month, which
he believed was the foundation of the proceedings of the
magistrates; and the answer was to the effect, that the
procession on Easter Monday was net a procession of the
Orange Society,—that such processions were diametri-
cally opposed to the rules of that society.—that there was
soinnleyeobneee
1,01
sruasnpgeetm,
daend
fi
onr tilitaavtinpgrotcaeksesnio
in,
a,
ratntd h h
etriiait he had
. (Hear,
ear,
hear.) _ _

The MAYOR said, that however much he might regret
that any act of his, or any proceedings of the magistrates,
should have filed to receive the approbation of the Watch
Committee, or any portion of the Council, it was never-
theless very
.satisfactory to bim to know, that whatever
had taken place was under the advice of the Town-Clerk.
It was also sa►isfactory to him to believe that the magis-
trates were only prompted by a sincere desire to preserve
the peace of the town : and he had further satisfaction of
believing, and indeed of knowing. that what they had
done hod met with the approbation of the Home Secre-
tan!, who had been inform,.d of every thing as it occurred,
and from whom a note had been received expressive of his
approval. With respect to a want of courtesy on the part
of the magistrates, he was sure that. if the Watch Com-
mittee knew what traospired, they would not entertain
any such feeling for a single moment. He might be al-
lowed to state how it orientated.

Mr, H. LAWRENCE thought that if it was to be dis-
cus,ed hereaher, it was better not to discuss it now.

M r. H A R.11011.D said it was absolutely necessat y the sub-
ject should he gone into, for at the 'ery ime the Mayor's
communication was received by the Watch Board that
Orangemen were not to be appointed, the Mayor recom-
mended one Ititnself. (A laugh.)
The M A YOR.—Not knowing it. of course; I wasn't
aware of it, I assure you. The whole of their proceed-
ings had their origin in the procession to which Mr.
Thompson has alluded. He had b,en waited on by Mr.
Ru4iton, who made certain representations. The Town-
clt.rk was sent for ; and ti ey advised together. He (the
Mayor) suggested the propriety of communicating with
the Watch Committee at the first meeting. (Hear, hear.)
The object, however, they had in view was simply that
the thing might be kept perfectly quiet—that no one
shculd know it, not even the bench of Magistrates.
However, the instructions given to Mr. Miller and Mr.
Whitty came before the Watch Committee • the thing
got out; and then the Magistrates were called together,
and the resolutions, already read. passed.
Mr. ASPINALL said, that the Town-Clerk, when asked
why he did not recommend the Mayor to send for the
Watch Committee, said that he had not been sent for
until everything was arranged by the Mayor and Mr.
Rushton.

Toe TOWN.CLeRK assured Mr. Aspinall that his an-
swer had been wholly misunderstood, for that he had
never made any such statement.
The MAYOR thought the Town-Clerk must have been
misunderstood, for he had rung the bell for him the mo-
ment. Mr. Rushton mentioned the natur, of the business
upon which he bad come to the Town-hall.
Mr. ASPINALL said there was no mistake; for that he
had put the question to the Town-clerk twice on Satur-
day last, and that the answer was, that everything had
been arranged by the Mayor and Mr. Rushton before the
Alavor sent for his legal adviser. (Hear, hear.)
The TOWN-CLERK again assured th, council that be
had been, in a most extraordinary manner, misunder-
stood. He had no hesitation at all in avowing that he
had been called into the Mayor's room at an early stage;
that he found Mr. Rushton with the Mayor ; and that the
representation respecting the Orangemen had been pre-
viously made. Before he had taken any active part
in the mater, he thought it necessary to consult
with Mr. Shuttleworth. who concurred with him, that
Orangemen, a: well as Ribbonmen, were unfit persons to
he members ot' the police I irce ; and when he joined Mr.
Rushton arid the Mayor, he f mild them in possession of
information that there was ground fir believing that there
were sixty Orangemen in the police force. His inference
was, for he knew it not of his own knowledge, that Mr.
Rushton had ir ade that representation to the Mayor. He
then referred at length to the part he had taken in the
matter, and said his wish was. that until the proceedings
had arrived at a proper stage. there should be no repre-
sentation. made to the Watch Committee, as the object
was to effect the busine-s as quiet lv as possible; but that,
at a proper period, they shoodd be informed that the fact
of a man bring an Orangeman or a Ribhorima:,
,w” E;_ptr.oie-
per ground for his dismissal. weise tPar induced hirmito
council chose, to state the reasons
beßi
Mr.bdbeoe ri,Admesid!):.N.olfaLsLoq.pli
tileoonuunt, tfiho
for
rn
bettert
hOrangeman,epo free.st pon ea sowl
aetl as
pointa
ad
for the present.
everan. saw the
Town-Clerk came to that conclu-
sionthe rules of the Orange Society.
(IlMearbef
r"ilß
hear.)oorAh
The Twe e:CLEatc.--I came to it from the general re-
presentations made of the society, and also from a full
knowledge of what took place regarding Orange Societies
in parli,ment in 1835.

Mr. TURNER.—Did the Town-Clerk advise the Mayor
and Mr. Rushton to issue the order regarding Orangemen
in the force, and to act upon that order before ever it
went to the Watch Committee ?
The TOWN-CLERK, without immediately replying to
the question, went on to say that, according to the mu-
nicipal corporations act, the Watch Committee had the
appointment of the constables, and the power to frame
regulations as they should deem expedient for the preven-
tion of neglect. and that the constables were required to
obey the lawful commands of the justices. In cases of
disturbance the constables were under the complete order
and controul of the magistrates, without any right on the
pa-t of the Watch Committee to interfere.
Mr. TURNER.—You say the police are bound to obey
the orders of the magistracy : are they not equally bound
to obey the orders of the Watch Committee ?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Not in cases of disturbance. He
thought that, as magistrates were often placed in situations
of great peril, they required to have a force under them
upon which they could rely; and, believing it to be per-
fectly clear that the justices had the power to take into
consideration what constables should be dismissed, be
considered, in a case in which there was reason to believe
there were sixty Orangemen in the force, that the charac-
ter of the Mayor required him to take up the subject with
the stipendiary rnagiss rate, and not hand over that juris-
diction to any other tribunal. tie firmly believed that
the power of dismissal was as complete in one jurisdiction
as in the other,—that the one beginning first could pursue
the thing to a conclusion, and that. considering the posi-
tion in which magistrates were often placed, they, of all
occasions,
cotaenl
dsreisoro,
nefhlsyt:i
wid.oepas right
roeent. 0 riots,lt
occurwn htuicsht
again, bed s
gni
trbawyciotod.uasd thetbo
e.
ta,
,every:,nu
er mcaea
former
fr thati,oihe.r
jection to the force if Orangemen were calledsetdotahcet against
maorr
(-tnh,eacnodurßsiebbalorreimadeNndaegtaainlesdt Otoratntigeecmoeuni.iciliT. Under
ethoonscelucdierdcubmysrteaandcielslg, hfreocmertaiirn.
count of the situation in which magistrates
IYJuhsatdice"iLviittledale an ac-,
tßolbpb:rsni7e
MI . TURNER said no person
placed when called on to '
act
doubted
u ht casesd
di
tt i
hes se- .
es to dismiss, but that thee resolutioni of the
piwers of the Watch Committee. He spoke
warmly the zeal and attention manifested the corn-
wtwmuai
artrghhmiasnitt
yhrc
magistrates
Mayor and Mr. Rushton was considered an interference
that
to the force, and
interested
ems
ta:l
omo/drwiolaalthsdh
were
eu
rlthede
mittee in maki,l their appoint
said it was of the utmost consiqlsuysence ts
suchof the
-e'resolu.
emrxiasttebhect between
ittwteoe,suscol=
initbheemTaoiwn
Nen-CLERK
saanidactthivset aifndheeffithceieenthptotlt.
tinns an interference with the rights and privileges
Watch Committee, he never could have advised
mode of proceeding; but he reta'ned the opinion np to a
the present moment, that there had not been any inter-
ference- whatever.
and that
a
Mr. BLAcKauare.defended the magistrates, and thought
they were perfectly warranted in coming to the resolu-
tion in question.
present
Mr. H. LAWRENCE was of opinion that the
discussionpitifulprocession
a wweoneat.ollde unro,ote
was not sufficient to throw the town
t
Mr. BIRKETT characterised the proceedings of the ma-
gistrates as a " tempest in a teapot."
Mr. HARBORD said he h. d receiyedlhe first intimation
di,tini,ed,
i
of the magisterial proceedings from a poor Orangeman
who was going to be quietly dismissed, and who came
quietly to his house at ten o clock at night, o tell h
and
that
Committee. and they quietly took it up, and now it was
be
ee
(andmr.
H others
grusiewie ly re totre n be quietly
the fact to ihe Watch
thenbeing quietly br, ught belore the Council. (Hear, hear,
and great laughter.)
Mr. PARKER said that Mr. Thornhill could tell the

Council that questions of religion and politics were never
asked the candidates for situations in the f irce by any of
the members of the Watch Committee. If they were to
have tests of the kind, let the Test Acts be revived. The
committee never thought of putting such queries. If
they got men with characters for sobriety and honesty,
that was all they looked for and all that they considered
necessary. At the same time he did not agree with those
withbers of the Council who had been casting blame on
the magistracy. He thought the magistracy deserved the
complimentary letter they had received from Sir James
Graham ; for what might not have been the result, if they
had overlooked the circumstance, or if they had not made
the wonderful discovery, that there was the large number
of seven poor Orangemen in the police force! t" Hear,"
and a laugh.) lie had been informed that morning that
there was some treasonable correspondence found out by
the stipendiary magistrate (renewed laughter) ; and, un-
der these cfrcum,tances, the bench ought to be lauded,
instead of censured, for their great exertions in making
the discovery. Considerable stress had been laid on the
word " Orangemen" by Mr. Blackburn, and only once in
the course of his speech had that gentl .man mentioned
the word " Ribbonmen". Nov, he (Mr. P.) thought
the question put to the Town-Clerk a very proper one—
namely, whether the Orange Society was a legal or an
illegal society ; and he certainly expected a decisive an-
I • swer ; but the Town-Clerk said, " No, I am not in a po-
sition to answer such a question." • (Hear, hear.) Then
the Town-Clerk went into a long explanation, and mysti-
fied the matter with some deep law (a laugh); but no
straghtforward answer had been given to the important
question touching the legality or illegality of the society.
When political feeling ran so high, and when Orangemen
were considered as firebrands in the town, he certainly
thought it necessary to make a passing allusion to another
view of the subject. He contended that there were a
great many Repealers in the force, and men who contri-
, bated to the O'Connell and Repeal funds ; nay, they had
magistrates who presided at certain meetings, and who
were themselves Repeaters.
Mr. EVANS.--Who are they?
Mr. PARKER.—Look at their actions.
Mr. THORNHILL was of opinion that if those discus-
sions and interferences were to go on, the force, in a short
time, would not be worth a single halfpenny.
Mr. LACE said, the real question was, whether it was
proper to have any man on the force who was a member
of any society except a mere benefit club. He was of
opinion it was the very worst thing; for they would find
that, in all cases, the police force would be sure to serve
1 any other member of a secret society. He quite agreed
with the opinion of the magistrates, and he would say that
neither freemasons, oddfellows, or any other secret society
should they belong to. He would have no connexion with
any secret society. It was entirely incompatible with the
proper discharge of their duty. He thought the Mayor.
under the advice of the Town-clerk—for he must bear all
theAlayor's sins in this respect—had gone too far in coming
to the resolution. The Town-clerk had made some good
observations; and if tbe matter had involved- a riot next
day, it would have perhaps been the right course ; but
when three or four days did not signify, he thought all
the magistrates should have been called, and then a com-
munication sent to the Watch Committee. The magis-
trates had clearly the power—there was no doubt of that.
Mr. HORNBY denied that there were any Repealers on
the magisterial bench.
After some further discussion,
Mr. Aserria Lt. replied, and gave notice that he should
move at the next meeting, that Mr. J. B Lloyd be a
member of the Watch Committee, in place of Mr. Bout-
flower, deceased. He said, that if the courtesy due to
the Watch Committee had been shown to them, it would
have been found that an inquiry had been instituted, and
that the number of Orangemen, Ribbonmen, and Repeal-
era in the force was so trifling as not to be worth the
trouble of noticing. He was glad to hear from Mr. Tor •
ner that the stipendiary magistrate, and other individual
magistrates, had denied that any discounters was meant ;
but the proper course for them to pursue would have been
to send a letter, to the deputy chairman of the Watch
Committee, on the subject. as they had sent other letters.
This would have done away with a great deal of ill feel-
ing, and placed one party as well as the other in a proper
positii
The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed.