The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-03-06 00:00:00

MINISTEMAL EIP;,O4ATIONS,

The order of the day fir the hones resolving itself into a com-
mittee of the whole house, to consider of a supply to he granted
to his Majesty, was then read, and on the motion that the
Speaker do levee the chair,
Lord Joe e Nese: er. rose in consequence of the notice he
hail given el his intention to ask some questions of .the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer respecting the rumouredelissolutiou of
parliament. He hoped that he should not,be called upon to put
the questions then, but felt it necessary to make some remarks
befere the house went into a committee of supply. The house
had already ceclared by two Votes, that it wee not disposed to
adept the propositions made to it by his Majesty's ministers;
and by negativing the address, in answer to the King'respeech,
had also declared that the dissolution of the late parliament
was unnecessery. He (Lord John) believed that no ministry
ever stood before in so extraordinary a situation. Ile had been
informed that his Majesty's ministers having advised his Ma-
jesey.to appeal to the judgment of his people, net content with
the judgment so expressed, if it shoal d prove adverse to• their
views and measures, would again appeal to the sense of: the
people, end endeavour to wear out and vex the country by re-
peated dissolutions. (Cheers from the opposition, and cries of
" No, no," from the ministerial benches.) There had been
also a rumour even of a still more extraordinary nature in cir-
culation—namely, that if it should ceme•to a case, that minis-
ters should think it advisable for his, Majesty to diesel,„ this
parliament before the Mutiny Act was passed. they would take
upon themselves the responsibility, and would think themselves
authorized in maintaining a standing army in time of peace
(great laughter,
.and • cries of " Oh," from the, ministerial
benches, and some cries of" Hear, hear.' from the opposition),
a thing wholly unknown to the constitution of the country, un-
less doue with the consent of parliament. . Whatever appreihens
sinus he might have felt un- the ground of such a rumour were
in a great degree dispelled by the tenor of his Majesty's answer
to the address. ' • For these reasons he would nut ask the right
hon. heronet the direct question which he contemplated on a
former night respecting the dissolntiou of parliament, and un-
less he beard something to the contrary would
.corcelude that
the answer which his Majesty had been advised- to give the
house that it was not the-ietentiou of ministers to iuterrupt its
course, either in the measures which it mayehink.• necessary to
reform in the state, or with regard to that advice:to his Majesty
which, acting as the great council of the nation, it may feel
called upon from time to time to offer. With respect to.the
general question of supply, I shall not to the motion immedi-
ately before the house, being as it is merely of a formal nature,
otter any opposition. But, eirel do not think that we ought to
go far in supply. or
_commit ourselves incautiously, before we
have that full explanation which ministers, after the carrying
of the late amendment, should give us of the course which they
intend to pursue. The noble Lord then expressed his doubts
whether ministers were
.sinemee in their intention of bringing
forward some measure of cUrporetiota reform. After alluding
also to the church. question be expressed his intention of calling
the deliberate ittention'of thelsouse to that suldeceeheforesthe
conclusion of the present month. aThe noble lord concluded by
saying—l have now given this notice, and I have stated what
our course will be with regard to those two questione, in order
that the right hon. geutleman tnay answer, either this night, or
some other occasion, that call. which the house must-make upon
him, to statee he course which it is the intentiou of the govern-
ment to pursue in the extraordinary circumstances in which they
are placed. •
Sir R. PERT. said—Sir, it is always my wish to give to the
house as unreserved an explanation of the course which I mean
to pursue as a public man as it is consistent with my duty as a
minister of the crown to do, and I do not require any additional
time to answer the qtiestions of the noble lord. (Cheers.) I
have hot felt it my duty, in consequence of the •vote of the other
night, to tender my res-ignation--41oud cheering from the minis-
terial benches)--end I da intend to pereeveree--( renew ed cheers)
—in that course Which I consider it irty duty equally to the King
end to the public to persue;.and, notwithstanding that vote, to
submit to the consideration of the house those measures on
winch his Majesty's government have formed their opinion.
(Cheers.) I am aware, certainly, that the Iltniee of Commoul
did by a small majority—(" Hear, hear," front the ministerial
benches')—in an exceedingly full house,—by. a majority dr 309
against 392,—n0t pates a censure upon, the government—tut that
-the House of Commons, by a majority of 7, did imply a differ-
ence of opinion with that government as to the necessity of time
late dissolution of parliament, and an a pprebeesion, which I
think was unfounded, that measures which would be conducitte
to the general interests of the country would -be interrupted by
-the appeal which his-Majesty had thus made to the settee of Lis
people. (Hear, hear.) But I do nut believe that the majority
that came to that vote did mean to imply an opinion that that
vote was tantamount to a vote for the removal of his Maj,*Y's
ministers. (Hear, hear.) I think that there are many who
concurred in that vote who will nevertheless admit that I should
not he acting corieistently. with my duty if I considered it sig-
nificant of au opinion that it was my duty to retire from the post
to Which his Majesty has called me (Chem s.) Some hon. mem-
bers who voted for thit amendment, and who spoke in the course
of the debate, explicitly declared that-such was their opinion.
With respect to the Irish church (for I shall take the several
questions put by the noble lord in the orderwhich their im-
portance suggests, and • not in the order in which they were
presented to rue), I beg to say, that I intend to present to the
house the report whichenay be'rnside by the cominissisioners of
public instruction appointed by the late government. When I
that the comonissieners had ap-
.catneinto (ace, I ascertained.
plied themselves sedulously to the duties that had devotvt d upon
.them, that they had completed their inquiries in nearly one
half of the parishes in Ireland, and that they were proceeding
to make theirs •in the remainder Under these silent-listeners
his majesty's' ministers did not think it their duty, the conning-
einn having been appeinted• by the crown. vendee, opt•ite mre-
'egress (hear, hear) ' • on thegnutrury, with( of committing teepee:
to the adoption of the coinmiseiem or of the principle of the
measures which it may propose, I may say, with truth, that we
gave every fair facility to the coudacting of that commission.

. •
The noble lent haseaid that I have intimated an opinion that.
I will net found any measure upon the report of that corn- 1
TiIQ-noble lord Las misunderetooil my meaning.
What • I said iras that I still remain of ~pinion, that eccle-
siastical property ought not to be diverted truing strictly eccle-
siaStical purposes. (Loud cheers.) That was the princi-
ple which I have always maintailied, which 1 still inaintain,•
and upon which I a;n still disposed to act ; but I do not pre-.
etude myself by that declaration from adopting any measures
suggested by that commission, if I should approve of them,
and which are nut inconsistent With thet declaration. (Cheers.
On the subject of the, corporation commission, I do. not know
exactly to what conversa'ious the noble lord alludes. 1 speak
for myself. (Cheers.) I mean when the report of the corpora-
tion counnaissioners'shall be presented (and I conclude that that,
will be in the course of a very short time, as we are led to ex-
pect it would hive been presented at the conclusion of the last
mouth, February)—l mean, I say, when we are put in pos-
session. of the principles which it contains, and the evidence
which it brings thrward in support of those principles, to give
the evidence and the seggestioas coutainei in that report the
fullest and fairest consideration. (Cheers.) I assure the noble
lord that I have nu 'lurking' nrejudice in favour of the abuses of
corporations. I cannia.couceive what possible cause, particu-
larly after the passing of the noble lord's bill, there could be
sillier of a political or personal consideration to give me any
assignable interest in the defence of corporate abuses, or in the
prevention of measures to-remedy abuses where they are proved
to exist, and to secure against their admission eleswhere. Idu
think tnat it would be inconsistent with my duty as a minister
of the crown, looking at the report of the committee of 1833,
of which you, sir, was chairman, and which states that many
remedies were suggested that would•suit smallcorporations, and
would not suit large ones—that the most popular corporations
were not practichtly the most pure,—that there were many
points upon which further information. was required, and with-
regard to which the committee themselves were not able at the
time to give an-opinion—l think, I repeat, that, looking at that
report, it would be, inconsistent with toy duty as a minister of
the crown to pronounce au opinion on this subject at preseut,
and that the most natural course for me to pursue is to propose
nothing to the house.until I heve an opportunity of seeing the re-
portof the ceinmissioners-s-of weighing the evidence which it con-
tains,and of exemiuing the nature of the suggestiou that it puts
forward. I have the honour of presiding overa corporation i I will
venture to declare their unanimous assent, if the resultof this corn-
mission should be to prove the existence of any abuses, to any
improvement that may be suggested to conciliate the good will
of the I trust that fain not committing any dereliction
of the trust•confided to my stewardship when I say, on the part
of my own corporation, that I have found a genetal disposition
there to acquiesce in any course-that may be proposed for that
purpose. (A laugh from the opposition.) lam sure that the
,noble lord would be the last to suppose that I have any secret
iuteution of blinking the criestien of corporate reform. I re-
peat that I have not the slighteet interest in doing so. My
only wish •is tgsee the nature and extent of the abuse, and the,
nature and ,extent of the leamily. before I commit Myself.
(Cheers.) ',With respect to the question—the last in point of
importance though mot in point of the order in which they have
been put—the question with 'which I iv:is threatened by:the
noble lord on a former day, but front which I think his has him-
self receded, (cheers.) the question as to the dissolution of par-
lietnent, I cannot help thinking it possible that in the interval
the polite lord his referred to a question put in the month of
April 1831, to Lord Grey. There Were then rumours very pre-
eatent as to the dissolution of.parliament, sad with good reason,
fee the question to ivhieb I refer was put on the 21st of April,
•and an tee perliaMent was dissolved. (A laugh.) On the
`2lst of. April, 1831, Lout Wharncliffe said, " I wish to ask his
majesty's ministers whether there is any true!' in the statement
that they have advised his majesty to dissolve parliament, and
that it has been resolved to adapt that course?" Lord Grey in
reply said, " I believe the noble lord's question willbe admitted
to be one of a .veri,.nuulual n tture. (cheers,) and can hardly
bring myself to believe that when he put it the noble lord ex-
pected an answer.- (Renewed cheers.) But whatever the
noble lord's expectations may have been, I have only to say I
must deciine answering his question. (Repeated'eheers.) As to
any measure which he may think it necessary to propose on
that subject he will consult his own discretion and take what-
ever course he thinks fit." (Great cheering, in no slight de-
gree increased by the manner in which the right hon. baronet
read the passage.) I am sure that if the noble lord would on
any subject suhinit to a rebuke from any one, he would not ob-
ject to one coming from Lord Grey. (Cheers and laughter.)
But I will be more. explicit with the noble lord than Lord
Grey was with Lord Wharuclifie. (Laud cheering.) 'rile
noble lord has asked me whether or not I have countenanced
rumours, which he says. are prevalent, respecting a dissolution
of parliament. 1 tell him, in reply that by no actor expression
of mine, directly or indirectly, have I sanctioned or coun-
tenanced such rumours. (Cheers.) I will tell'hirn with equal
fairness that I have never discussed with any body the case
hypothetically, in which a dissolution might be considered
necessary. (Renewed cheering.) I will add that I do not
think that it would be becoming the ministers of the crown to
discuss hypothetically, and in reference to some future possible
contingency, the exercise of this prerogative of the crown.
Besides' ,sir, nothing on my part would be mere unbecoming-'
than,tohuld out any menace in the llouse of Commons in con-
sequence of any course which it might think fit to pursue. So
much fur that part of the noble lord's questions. With respect to
the other rumour which the noble haft mentioned, but which he,
said he disbelievett.(a laugh) the rumour that it was our mitten- •
Lien to govern by a standing army in case the I-louse. of Com-
mons should refuse to pass the mutiny bill. (Great laughter.)
I can only slay filet I trust this rumour is of recent origin, as I
can declare, with perfect truth, that the first time I ever heard
a whisper of such a rumour-was this night from the lips of the
noble lord himself. • (Cheers and laughter.): As to that other
reiestion with which the noble bold threatened. me the other day,
tnit which he did nut put on this. occasion, though I came down
fully expecting that he would, namely, whether or not I would
pledgenaysellaSho the exercise of the prerogative of the crown
in referencelna dissolution of parlianient, I will just say this
nattelle--I hive already stated that I never, directly or indirectly,
sanctioned the runeenre that the noble lord said. prevailed on the
subject, and that by no act orszpressien of mine was any war-
rata given to them, I stated further, that it would- be most un-
becoining in me.hs fetter the discussions of the Ilouse of Com-
meets by any thehilightest menace, or reference to any menace,
hut I must at the same time say, sir, that it would he equally
unbecoming in me as a minister of the clown to consent to place.
any prerogative of the crown in abeyance, or, upon the princi-'
ple of a hypothetical ease, to pledge myself as a minister of the
crowp and a privy councillor how I should advise the crown as
to the course it should pursue. I have attempted to give On
answer to the noble lord, and I trust I may venture to antici-
pate that td the extent it has gone my answer has been. satin-
factory. (Cheers.)
Lord J. Itussnet.—The right hon. baronet has misunder-
stood me in regard to what I said as to the rumour about keep-
ing up a standing army, without having the antlioritte of this
house. I never- said; as insinuated by the right hon. gentleman,
that it was the intention of government to govern by a standing-.
army. What I meant was this, that persons but openly sug-
'gestpd that they could justify the keeping up of a standing army
thonei these was mo enutiny bill in existence, acid that they
maintained that the doing so could be authorised by'an inher-
ent•preregatiec ill the crown. It Was to dispel such an absurd
ruinour that I called the right hon. gentleman's attentien to-it.
With respect to the general course Alibi: right hon. gentleman,
I must say I will fairly admit that all I 'expected of him was
that he would not. countene nee such rumour. I did not expect
from him any declaratiOn of pledge as lo What he would do.
Sir di. Pest..—To allay the aPprehension that seems to exist
I declare in the most unequivocal manner that I never heard
of a prerogative of time crown to maintain the army without
the mutiny act, and that I lever heard it discussed until to-night.
Mr. EIVART wished to know if the right hon. baronet did not
consider the vote of the other night in the light of a censure on
the late dissolution of parliament ?
Sit R. PEEL--'The hon. member had better have recourse to
the addiess and the speech. I leave it to the party who pro-
posed the amendment to put the eonstruction the bon. gentle-
man seems to-wish on the vote alluded to. (Laughter.)
At the close of this conversation,
others
• Sir ROBERT •Peet rose to make a trestiim for which some
gent le men 'n iirtghttonuo,t6,tipveershtvaist,
itr,:d
nprepared,zthe
stwiifoundation.
u
h
might ettriiii,
It was his intention to propose that Mr. Bernet be called on to
resume his place as chairman of the committees of ways and
means.
part y r
ability, paving
sousetber en i -gcbotbpolni m.
bait,ent s to
concludedl.4r
1 . •n.on
by
making
g
his, motion.
Lord J. IiUgSELL was glad that the right hon. baronet had
made this niutiouowhich he felt great pleasure in seconding.
lie only rose for the purpose of Bearing his testimony to the
great iuerits of Mr. Bernal, who he was sure would discharge
his duties in future as he hid always done heretofore, with strict
impartiality, .and so etlleiently as to deserve the continued and
unanimous approbation of the house. ( Hear, hear.)
• Mr. Bernal then took the chair amidst cheering from ell
parts of the hooks, and the-house went into committee of supply
The CH /unman) having read that part of the King's speech.
which related to the eetimates and was addressed to the 'House
of Commons, put the.question, "•that a supply be grunted to
his Majesty ;" which was agreed to.
The house having resumed, the chairman reported progress,
and obtained leave to sitagain. -

•PneoeLuoiNos AT RATHCORMAC.
ilr. IL. GRATTAN moved fur a copy of the letter signed
Fitzroy.iouierset," dated :Horse Guards, Feb. 22, and ad-
aessed to Si'r Hussey. Vivian. Agreed to.
On the %notion of Sir R. Inglis, the re-appri;ntment of the
library committee was agreed to.
- Rost A ITTOyed far. a return,ol.the sums in each county
and city treasurer's bands in Ireland, respectively, on the Ist
of February, 1635. and %%bother the same has bean lodged-in
goyernment or other security, or in bank, and the amount of
sectirity far each treasaFer; together with the names, additions,
•and residatitiesof eaCh 'snreties, and if living or dead; also an
itCcUunt of the expense of the militia staff in Ireland for the last
thtee years.
Sir 1-1. EIARD.INGE had no objection to the first part of the
lion, gentleman's motion, nor indeed to the second, except that
it was unnecessary, as the hon. member would see if he looked
at the militia.estituates in the library,- where he would obtain
the inf:irination he sought. • -
Mr• IloNa'ymi'would shape his motion to meet the right hon.
gent lleman's suggeation. •
MtAllisaccic gave notice of the presentation of a petition
from Lower Canada' On Friday next.
Mr.- I-4,4E would present a petition, from Van Dieman's
Land on the subject of trial by jury on the seine day-.
Mr. It But,wEn had a siinflar petition to present, and would
avail himself of the same opportunity to lay it before' the house.
Adjourned ata quarter lia.!
I10:1TSit, Uk' rbUltiJS, I Li,soAT.
The Duke of presented petitions from two
parishes in Dumfries, and from one in Roxisurglishire, express-
iagthe attachuo•nt of the petitioners to the established church
•,%*lstl4ll‘l, aul praying thafadditional aeconnnodation might
be—atTori!ed for atteudance at public worship in the churches of
that country,,..
ar,-ncii.niNdsoF TIIE TWO HOUSES or PARLIAMENT.
The of WNLuNGToN moved, that their lordships should
take into &insideratiati that part of hi; maje'sty's speech which
referred to the late lamented destruction of both houses of par-
liament by tire. His majesty had been graciously pleased' to
slate, that, as soon as possible after that great' misfortune had
occurred,.he had directed arratigements tube made fur the tem-
porary accommodation of their lordships for their present
=ding. nis majesty !ot further intimated his wish that such
plans should be adopted for the permanent accOmmo.lalion of
both houses of parlouncut as should be deemed, on their joint
consideration, to be the most fitting and convenient; and he-
had ordered the reointOttlw;'privy coun,il relatiVe to' the origin
of the fire, and the evidence On %•iiirtt that report was founded,
to be laid before both. houses of parliament. • know became
his duty, in,obedience to the commands of his majesty, to move
best of carrying into eireq his
that a select committee be appointed to take into considmation,
gracious wishes, with reference to the
rebuilding
and tmoy.,rseutla,:orstt on, tl,e
of the two houses of parliament,"
.don'ot that it was intended that the
si
s.ss.aki be as coin.'
teiLuir:orrdaßryita°criG•otinAtiodha7ilii4n9for their lordships s A
plete as possible; but he con:d not avoid notteitig the very bad
air r were breathirg. The air from the Stoves was
eoe
unwholesome. The smell was like that.which was
x‘e ( hih e
experienced in a placc..no%ly .painted.
The Earl of Itosstvtx said, the' heat 'front the 'stoves pro-
ceeded from het water, and be could not conceive how the un-
pleasant mei} arose.

After a few words from the Duke of Cumberland and Lord
brougham across the table, the motion was agreed to, and a
select committee Ivas appointed.

k;DUCATION IN Ib:LAND,

The Earl of Roam gave notice, tint in consequence of what
took place last night in the other house of parliament, he should
on Friday next ask a question of the noble duke opposite, re-
lative to the system of national education in Ireland.

The Marquis 41 WEsTmiNtsTErt inquired Whether it was the
intention of the noble duke to propose any measure to parlia-
ment with reference to the inn udaction of a system of poor
laws into Ireland? Also, whether the noble duke meant to
propose any provision for the support of the Roman catholic
clergy of Ireland? And if so, from what fund such provision
was to be taken?

The Duice of WELLINGTON said, he understood that a com-
mission was at present employed in making inquiries with
reference to the propriety and feasibiiity of introducing into
Ireland a law for the provision, for the poor. Until that com-
mission made its report, of course goyetutnent could do nothing
on the subject. With respect to the second question of the
noble marquis, it was not intended to make any provision for.
the Roman catholic clergy, and therefore nu question could
arise as to the fund of which such a provision was to come.
The Duke of RICHMOND presented a second report front the
library committee, recommending additional measures for the
further accommodation of their lordships' officers.
Adjourned to Friday.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Tuit:suAr.
Mr. Alderman \Vood brought iu a bill for the enlargement. of
Smithfield market.

- -
Mr. Hodges presented petitions praying for the repeal of the
malt tax.

Sir John Beckett presented a petition from the licensed vic-
tuallers of Leeds complaining of the act of lest session, which
imposed additional excise duties on persons retailing spirituous
liquors. FRAUDS UPON 'THE COltN LAWS.
Mr. P. TriomsoN seem g the member for Buckinghamshire
(the Marquis of Chandos) in his place, requested him to explain
an erroneous report which had got abroad, through the me
dium of a speech inAde by that noble lord to his constituents.
The misstatement of which he (Mr. P. 'l'.) complained had
bzen published by a geutleman of Norfolk, it was as follows:
" We tiud it publicly stated by the Marquis of Chandos, and it
remains uncontradicted by any member' of the late administra-
tion, that for some time past the government has connived at
the introduction of foreign corn, duty free, through the channel
islands, in sttch quantities as to produce a depression in agri-
cultural produce, and the present stagnation of prices." Now,
whatever might be the effect of the change in the political ar-
rangements of the government, he thought that the right hon.
gentleman would admit that, as far as attention could be paid
to the prevention of fraud in the admission of foreign corn into
oar irons duty free, that attention bad been paid to the Itt.iest
extent by the late government. (Hear, hear.) lie well knew
that rumours. of tbis kind had. beets most industriously circu-
lated; but far the very reason that he held opinions hostile to
the policy of the present corn laws was he anxious that they,
should work their full effect, and that they should not be in-
fringed in any way whatever.
The Marquis of CHANDOS said that his attention had been
called.to the subject, and he had no hesitation in stating that
the report-to which the hon, gentleman alluded did not contain
a correct version of what he had said. •( Hear, hear.) At tha
cud of last year his attention had been called to the quantity of
corn that had been introduced, duty free, into the country from
the channel islands; and at a meeting of his constituents he
had read a letter, iu which it was stated that a number of vessels
had been sent from Dantsic, freighted with corn, to the channel
islands. Ile had no information on the subject except that con-
tained in this. letter. Ile had stated that if the case were such
as that information led .him to suppose that it was, such impor-
tations must have an effect upon the corn-market at home. He
did not, however, charge the late government with having con-
nived at these importations. (Dear, hear.)
Mr. Bartirsc had never imputed neglect to the right bon:gen-
tleman. What he had stated was, that the fact had been esta-
blished beyond all contradiction, that there had been fraudulent.
importations of grain into the Isle of Man and the channel
isle nds.
Mr:P. THOMSON would just ask the right hon. gentleman
ond.qtestinn, to clear up a misconceptiou of what had fallen
from him on,a former occasion. Was be to understand that the
right hon. gentleman intended to introduce a bill to prevent
these importations being made, not only from the Isle of Man,
but also from the channel islands?
Mr. BARING said that it 'was his intention to include within
his bill alt cases of this kind of fraud. It would extend not
only to the Isle of Man, but also to the Isle of Guernsey, from'
the northern part of which the importations had been must he-.
quent.—llere the conversation dropped.

NEGHTIATIoNs WITH AMSHICA.

Mr. G. Ron INso N asked whether any- progress had been made
with the United States respectingthe N'orth American Wanda' c?
Sir R. PEEL replied that the negotiations were still pending.