The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-08-25 00:00:00

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niperiat

HOUSE OF LOI: DS.—TitunsrlAY.
Mr. Baring, Captain Yecheli, and other inemtiers brought up
a great number
,of bills froth the House of Commons, which

were severally read a first time

Petitions from almost every part of Ireland and from several
places in England were presented to the house against the

ecclesiastical revenues reiulation bill.

On the motion of the Earl of Hs tmoa,_the polls at elections
bill was read a third time and passed.

CHURCH OF IRE!. AN D BILL/
Viscount MELBOURNE, ou moving the second reading of this'
bill, said that he had it in command from his Majesty to ac-
quaint the house that this bill had his Majesty's sanction, and
that his Majesty plaCed at the disposal of the house for the pur-
poses of this bill all Ins Majesty's interests in the benefices of
the church, of Ireland. (Hear.) The noble viscount.then pro-
ceeded to state that it wit, his duty to attempt to induce tneir
lordships to make another effort upon the subject of Irish tithes
in Ireland—a subject wMch had produced that unfortunate
regard and contempt fur law which prevailed in that unhappy
country. Hr had in theattempt he was now making to remind
their lordships that it was not in Ire4ind alone that at the pre-
sent time objections and difficulties prevailed against tithes.
That epidemic, it was well known, had spread throughout
Europe. ( Hear.) hi countries in other respects tranquil, and
where tithes were in the hands of the laity, the objection pre-
vailed. It prevailed in Germany, in Roman catholic countries,
and even in Prussia, where existed a cautious and long-sighted
government. This country, therefore, was not alone in this
calamity, and he mentioned this to show that there was some-

thing iii the nature of
,Lst impost itself, in the mode it was
imposed,
.and in the manner in which it was paid, which ren-
dered it pregnant with discord, difficulty, and dissension.
(Hear.) He knew, As. it had_ been argued, that the payment
of tithes was a part of the original contract under which' lands
were held; he knew that the political economist would say that
the impost fell on the consumer of the produce, and not on the
party paying tithes. It might be urged that the tenth part of
the land was as much the property of those who were entitled
to it, as was the remaining nine-tenths the property of those in
possession; but the people could not be persuaded that it was
an impost tiatuded on wisdom or justice. (Hear.) ,The mode
of payment was peculiar to the early times, and was introduced
among the Jews, a pastoral nation, from whom the tenth of the
calves, cows, sheep, and other animals (?—l'igs) was -easily
collected. The principle was subsequently carried to agricul-
tural produce, to which it was not so applicable, but still was
not so cinemas as it had now become. By the power of the
clergy. it was attempted. to be extended to all kinds of profits
whatsoever, and kolas: length become aniimpost of a most vexa-
tious character scarcely to be endured in any country; end-
when the circumstances of aggravation under which it Was col-
lected in Ireland were considered, it was impossible to expM
that it would continue to be paid with tranquil content. In
this country even such was the objection to tithestnit the sub-
ject called fur the early attention of the legislature. The mea-
sure he had now to submit their lordships were well acquainted
with, for it was nearly the same in principle as that propnsed
to and rejected by their lordships last year, and. nearly the same
in principle as that opened in the other house of parliament by
the late secretary for treland. Sir Henry ardinge. The grounds •
upon which the bill had been rejected last year was, that an
hon..and learned member of the other house had by his infle-
ence made a considerable alteration in the measure originally.
propounded by government. (" Hear, bear," from the Duke
of Cumberland.) The -illustrious duke admitted this; but, as
those grounds were then personal and temporary, he hoped the
rejection of last year would not be adopted as a precedent on
the present occasion. The noble lord then proceeded to detail
the provisions of the bill, with which the
.public is generally
conversant. In speaking of the appropriation clause, his lord-
ship said it would be in the recollection of the house that, when
he accepted office after the change of government which fol-
lowed the adoption of Lord John Russell's resolution, one of
their lordships asked hint whether he considered himself pledged
to the adoption of that resolution, and that he had answered
that he did consider himself so pledged. Their lordships
had allowed his ministry to be formed; they had permitted his
administration to continue iu office up, to the present day ; the
government had met with sortie opposition from noble lords
but on the whole they had given to it a decided support. lie
would say, then, that he placed his justification for the adoption
and following up. of that resolution on the course pursued by
that very opposition which he saw before him. The numbers
which constituted their lordships' house gave them, in some
respects, the attributes of a popular assembly. They might have
certaiu opinions and principles peculiar to them as a body, but
they were men, and actuated by the sam., impulses which in-
fluences other men assembled in
.considerable numbers, and he

thought it was not in human nature that they (the opposition)
being the majority should allow ministers to govern unless they
were influenced by some over ruling necessity, and that very
feeling which allowed his government to exist, though iu a
minority, was his justification in proposing this measure, and
that justification was as decided as if he had the majority on his
side. It was on these grounds he proposed the measure, but it
rested on - still broader grounds, the paradoxical state of the
church of Ireland considered with relation to the population of
the country. After someeeruatks upon the acts of other govern-
ments with respect to protestant ascendancy in Ireland. His
lordship-asserted that the keeping up large protestant establish-
ment:where there was no protestant population was impolitic.
Their lordships had been told that they ought not to direct the
property of the church to other than ecclesiastical purposes, but
he contended that the provisions of this bill did not divert it
from but restored it to the purposes for which it was originally
intended. The protestant clergyman where there were few or
no protestants could not be a pastor—missionary he was not iu
the sense in which that term was used—but if looked upon as a
missionary, he would say much as he lamented the great errors
of the catholic church and deprecated some of its doctrines, he
would assert that they were fundamentally those of the church
of Euglaad, and that the catholic population ought not to be
treated with insult, by sending missionaries among them, as if
'they were the worshippers of the. Juggernaut. If the protest-
ant clergy were to be sent as missionaries he did not think that
they were properly qualified fur the task, and that keeping up a
body of clergymen where there was tio cure of souls was scan-
dalous. His loidship concluded by saying that he would com-
mit the bill to their lordships' hands, hoping, and he trusted it
would be no vain hope, that, casting away all prejudices, they
would view it with this consideration—that the great power of
this country could not be kept together, except it acted with a
due regard to the feelings and interests of all whom it was called
oti to govern.
On the question that the bill be read a second time being
put—
Lord FITLGERALD addressed the house at considerable length.
He did not mean to oppose the second reading—he would-go
into committee, not with the view of defeating the bill, hut of
rendering it more efficieht for its objects—but he would ask had
their lordships, in the course of the noble viscount's address,
heard one word to show that the measure of appropriation and
that which secured payment to the clergy were inseparable,
and that they must adopt or reject both together—that they must
adopt a principle of spoliation, or do an act of •gross injustice
to the whole body of the lash clergy? Their lordships would
conclude, from what 'he had-said, that one object of going into
committee would be to- separate .those two parts of the bill,
which he contended were not necessarily connected. For saying
this he had the authority of some of the leading supporters of
the bill—of Mr. Littleton, now Lord Hatherton, of •Lord John
Russell, and of Lord Althorp, as given in their speeches last
session. There were other points in the bill to which perhaps
it would be necessary for him to advert in committee. At pre-.
sent, he'should merely content himself with observing,. that he
should certainly urge a change of that provision or regulation
according to which the land-tax for the benefit of the clergy was
in the first instance to pass through one of the government de-.
partmeuts—that of the Woods and Forests. Now, with all the
respect which he entertained for the noble lord at the head of
that department, he must be permitted to say, that in his opinion
it would be much better if the clergy of the established church
were not to be made mere stipendiaries of the government, but
rather derived their income through the hands of ecclesiastical
commissioners. He concluded by expressing a hope that the
house would give the bill a second reading, and proceed in COM=
mittee to make such changes in the measure as would render it
not unacceptable to the great body of the protestants of the
empire—as would supply means to as ert those evil and dangerous
consequences which would inevitably result from the bill if -it
became law, in the shape iu ty hie 11 it was introduced by the noble
viscount.
The Marquis of CLAN RICA ROE was of opinion that the pro-
testant religion would have been more successful in Ireland if
an attempt had not been made to force it upon the people of
that country. It might be very well for noble lords to speak as
if they did all that was required of them when they agreed to go
into committee on the hilt, but he took the Liberia, to say, that
much depended upon the manlier and temper iu which they en-
'aired upon the business of that committee; he had no difficulty
in saying that it would make all the difference if they went into
it sincerely, earnestly, and with a genuine wish to carry rots
fuJI effect the principles of the bill by improving its details. It
was his settled conviction that if ttiey went into committee on
theisill with the intention of so altering its provisions as to ren-
der it valueless in the eyes of those who now most earnestly de-
sired its enactment, it would have the effect of greatly checking;
the respect which the people generally entertained for that
house. If they sincerely desired to pass the bill, they -would- so
dal with it in committee as not to render it ineffective in they
of its material provisions, while -if they didotheraise, they
would not only inflict a serious injury upon the church itself,
but endanger its existence. (Hear,. hear.)
The Earl of Iliseassdeuied that *two portions of the WO
were necessarily dependent each upon the other. In his opi-
nion they were perfectly distinct, and be must say that the
house would not. be fairly dealt with if they were railed on to
pa, to it at once; fair whilst he admitted the first part, he was
strenuously opposed to the latter ; but he would rather re-
linquish the first altogether than give the least support to the
second. Ile also denied that the measure originated with a
vote or resolution of the house; for he could not consider it as
having been properl; founded upon any thing of the sort, and
in point of fact it would have been doing great injustice to any
measure to suptiose that it had been so founded, seeing that the
resolutions to which reference had been made were passed al-
together in the dark—they were passed without know ing that
there would be any surplus at all, and it did strike him as a most
extraordinary ,moile of creating a surplus to begin by effecting
a deficiency. The seeoutl restitution stated, that " no measure
upon the subject of tithes in Ireland can lead to a satisfactory'
and final adjustment which does not embody the principle con-
tained in the foregoing resolution." Satisfactory! To whom
satisfactory? They might remedy the acknowledged grievance
of tithes, but they could give no satisfaction unless they con-
sented to extinguish the prdtestant church in Ireland—nothing
would give satisfaction unless it satisfied- the enemies of the
church, and that which satisfied the Roman catholics was pre-
cisely that which would alarm the protestants. Ile had listened
with much attention to the speech of his noble friend, anxious
to extract the motive with which the measure was brought for-
. ward, and the principle upon which it was founded, as Well as
the mode in which it might be expected to operate on the church
• in Ireland, but they were left in Cimmerian darkness with re-
spect to both. Ile looked in vain for these motives. There was
nothing to indicate the present amount of the church revenues
' or iu their altered state to Milani the house v, hat they might be,
• expected to amount to. Every one of those matters was left in
a stale of the most perfect obscurity. A great. ecclesiastical re-
volution was to be effected, but his noble friend had not ex-
plained to them the stem necessitas which urged him forward to
take the first step in that alarming revolution. (Hear.)
The Bishop of EXETII.I2 said he would not oppose the second
reading of the bill, but he felt it his duty strongly to pretest
against the main part of the principles announced in its pream-
ble, and he was prepared rather to forfeit life itself than be a
party, to the commission of the great injustice, and he would add
the gross injustice, which their lordships were now called on to
perpetrate. (Hear, hear.) He thought they were indebted to
the noble viscount (Melbourne) who opened the bill, for the
irankuess with which he told them the situation in which they
were placed. He had announced that they were now iu the
hands of a government who hail thrown off all regard for
.
principle. (Cheers, and cries of "No, nu.") He repeated it,
because a government which brought forwhrd measures which
they fennel!), declared to be indefensible in principle must be
considered to have forfeited all regard fur principle. (hear,
hear.) At the same time, he did not say that they were yet
ready to strike down every thing which they had been accus-
tomed to regard with respect; lest they had announced them-
selves as having started in a cuurse from which nothing would