The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-23 00:00:00

TITHES.

Lord Aurtioßp, pursuant to notice, rose to -submit to the
house a measure for the commutation of tithes in England.—
He need not say that the subject matter of his motion was one
of great importance ; at the same time, he felt that it would not

be necessary for him to detain the hoots at k.•
adducing argutherits in favour of the general
commutation. (Hear.) His principal duty',
explaining the principles of his measure,stated, was undoubtedly of great importance..
portant when considered as a measure which
change that would be substantially just and
at the same time adding to the burdens of the
he, however, entered into the main question
took to bring under their consideration, he
that he should at the outset disabuse hon';,
public with respect to the very exaggerate'
amount of the revenues of the church, which
on several occasions, and very recently in t,
hon. member. It had, for instance, been s
member, that the revenues of the clergy of E 1
were £9,000,000 per annum. Now, a more •
tion never was uttered. (Hear.) The total in
bishops of England and Wales, including
Sodor and Man, was but £158,527, and the
deans and chapters were £236,358 per annul
exact returns of the income of all the pal
had sufficient data for asserting that it was v,
£3,000,000 sterling per annum, making, with
bishops and the deans and chapters, an en 3
little more than £3,500,000, instead of £9,s
(Hear.) It would, perhaps, be better for him
to show that he had not understated the reven
ehial clergy, the data on which he had found(
There were 11,400 livings in England; of
turns from 9,660. These returns gave a to
per annum. Now, there was no reason what(
that the_ remaining livings were of a higher.
9,660; so that, taking the same average tis
total of £3,226,000 per annum for 11,406 -
This,equally divided, would give an average o,
with the revenues of the prebendaries, deanel
alSo equally divided among the parochial ci
an average of £3OO per annum and no films
It was hardly necessary for him to contend tl
sidered, £3OO per annum was not too high an
sident working clergyman of the church of 7
it was also unnecessary for him to point out
between the condition amid-,circumstances of -
land as would render a higher nominal income
latter. (Hear.) A great object of his meat
ing of the residence of a clergyman in ever'
cries of," Hear.") That, certainly, was a n
ject. (Hear.) Whether considered in a rail
or in a.political point of view, he was sure thi
one opinion of the desirableness of having a cl
in every parish. (Hear.) And he was equal
would all agree that £3OO per annum was not
come for the resident minister. The question
that income was to be obtained; that is, from 11
the revenue of the clergyman be derived? It
bounden duty of the legislature to prevent 1
being, not only a source of discontent and disc
persons paying, but also disadvantageous so far
of the clergyman himself was concerned. it
desirable that the revenue should not be the
angry recriminations and collisions between t
flock as might tend to impair his influence, an'
ness. (Hear, hear.) Now, tithes in kind, ti
of church income, had been long felt to be
prejudicial collisions; and, accordingly, for
gislature had acted on the principle of coins
ever a favourable opportunity presented i.
hounden duty of the legislature to exert itself
all obstructions in the way of the beneficial ei
gyman; that his income should not be derive
which almost inevitably endangered angry
spirit of discontent and opposition so unfav•
finence as a minister of the gospel. (Loud el
The object of the measure was to produce a
adjustment of this question of tithes. It •
that it was most desirable that a measure of t
purely permissive; that the respective partie
and the tithe receivers—should come volunt
fairly agree as to the arrangement that was de.
He would not say that he altogether expected
missive measure would have the effect of pis
commutation of tithes throughout the count
not be expected that a purely permissive men
lutely effect all the objects which they had in
in the first instance, to give power to the
owner, and the tithe-payer. When he spoke
he begged to say that he did not think it fair t
tion should be confined to the tithe-propel
(hear)—he thought that the provisions of it !
inetatis mutandis, to the lay impropriators
that the measure which he was now about to
in the first instance, give power to the tith(
owners, whether clergymen or lay impropris•
arrangement for a commutation of tithes into si
rent, varying, of course, according to the price of
converting tithes into a perpetual. rent, it was (1,1
sary to make its amount be measured by the
variations in the prices of corn. In making this3i
thought it right not to allow the clergyman of se'
mute the tithes of it without the consent of thli
living and-of the bishop of the diocess ; and, on
not to allow the tenant of a farm to commute its
the consent of the landlord. He proposed, in tli,tl
to give twelve mouths after the passing of this til'd
—the tithe-payer and the tithe-owner—by a 133
agreement entered into between them, to coal]
into a perpetual corn rent. But if, after that pe3,..1,
a commutation should not take place, which P
must suppose would be the case in the Ms
parishes, though he trusted that it would not
proposed that the tithe-payer or tithe-receiver,
ing it necessary that the whole of the parish
the subject, but allowing any individual titile:o
notice to the tithe-receiver that he intended
tithes,—he then proposed that the tithe-payer
a valuator, and that the tithe-receiver shot-111'4
appoint, a valuator on the other side, and tk,
proceed at once to a valuation of the tithes 1.9
the purpose of effecting a commutation of the
one other measure which was absolutely oe,
pressed more or less in point of time for imm.
Lion, and which he hoped in a very short tO
some other member of his Majesty's gwernoled
the honour of proposing, either in that house
House of Parliament,—he alluded to a measure
for the future pluralities in the church of Engl. •
With regarli to other measures, there were di
way of -their adoption, but nevertheless he lie
that at early period other propositions would he
to meet other evils. He would not pledge bi'i
present than to say, that some measures would
ward by government for that purpose. As lane
commencement of his address to the house,
that this measure, though it did not appear to it„
magnitude, yet if it should effect that which 10,
and general advantage to the public,—namely, p'
of tithes, at an early period throughout the Cop
ceived that it would he entitled to be looked up°,.
of considerable magnitude indeed, though at
might not attach such importance to it. This 0)"
nant with this great advantage to the landed
interests of the county, that it would give th,
employing their capital upon their land, withoo
by the collection of tithes, which had always he;
the improvement of agricultural property it
(Hear.) The noble lord concluded by inoci.,
bring in a bill to effect a commutation of tithes
Mr. A. BARING said a few words, which were
gallery.
Lord ALTHORp, in answer, said that it was 4,,
lieved, that wherever a composition for tithes
included the poor-rates, and that it would be 0111
that. the valuators should take them into the)
hereafter, whenever a commutation was about
would be for the public benefit that the clergY°
an interest in the poor-rates, in order to ensure
nistration.
Sir E. INntrs said' that the noble lord was 13
admit that this permissive measure vos lik
The noble lord first gave permission, but he 1"
wards by compulsion. The noble lord, in fact,

"-

" Keeps the.word ofigromise to the
But breaks it to the hope."
On a more fitting occasion he should be prerall
a discussion of the details of this measure. t
hear the noble lord declare that he would deaol
pert), in the same way, whether in the hands II
laymen. He trusted that such a principle w"','l
ten when they were legislating on this subjec,
Mr. HUME thought it would be better for tll,
missioners were appointed by government
throughout the country and buy them up, and t,
be paid either out of the Exch'eq,uer or by
of Hear," and "Oh ! oh !") Such a plan 101
under the serious consideration of persons ifi3i
the noble lOrd; and if such a plan had been c 1
40. ears ago, it would have been better for the„
Sir R: PEht.. was' sure that there was uo trtii
adverse to the principle of a conmmutation 0.0
from being opposed to it, was readyto give 01

a pri
LTHORP nciple the most careful consider
explained, that what %AS 1
tneasure was,tha the tith-receive]
of being paid according to the
certain grain, according to

•• ritut, after alluding to other porti9
"ho"ld gct into 0. faller discussion of it

galleryN said a few worcls which 1
iu the y.
14ussuridl-ori said, that during the la
' of the litigation bptween tithe pa)
ed to a sum that would be still -A in p
thisrosperity. When they recoil
beset tt s, not be
itsw Ito possible to overcomehould them al
• ile had objections to the mode
Parts of the plan, but he would, reserv,
u•ut into committee on the bill.
'VING was glad to perceive that so lit
been mixed up with temper mi
lordvi-ould brill..
.• to observe with what then ob:
It. and how
d ; great a desire he had disph
,a,4- mipartiality towards the interes
1' lie hailed the introduction of th
:tiered that it Ivould tend to dissipate thq
4s with regard to the established chi
4:oad. 'Phese temporary delusions,—for
1111k)rarY,—the result of malevolence
v4nisii before the facts which the meal
etiougi,. ei
.1,„1",'3131 was of opinion that as little el
v -71,4'4 i 4 the present rate of tithe pay e",,s3t4ght that every man in the emir
Lirew rran(reinent, pretty nearly the
•3e as the nobie lord that wh
to light. They had
la he would give it his best attention.
/411; thought some difficulty would a
l''''t in kind, owing to the trequ
Jr the purpose of shearing, feeding, ,
'e Pat In tome for the purpose of al
~ to ask the lord whether the r
"Itroduced wnobleith the approbation of tl

!t,rs expressed his approbation of the
1t()I said that the measure had bet
of the church; but he was not autl
either
;ls , 4iPproved or disapproved of it.
a ie that the bishops should express a
int-eyer the other upon a subject in wh
rest, inasmuch as it affected narochi
to the objection which had been
f,lir -Middlesex as to the mode in wl
~e' 4e admitted that there was much
!rioocett,iii be devised for the commutati
thes °ejections might not be made. He
propose "1,3' Principle which could be sub:
is, r.,eseei Was one of a general actual val
conlksied that if that were made the bas
ivolilitation of tithes, so far from lick
by
ex, create general discontent. The r
l'isitlessitig his gratification at the tat
Ilbin_ habeen received by the house.
, - t'eti a"iven to bring in the bill. ~i 1;
it o SINECURES.
Of „h expressed a wish that, in bringir
-tZleh he had given notice, his objec
With til On two former occasions he
140
Perfriflee view of putting an end to offic
4v-d, and consequently to save 1
%tiles was paid to the persons holdin
take of salaries and allowances.. 01
s en to the manner in which he intro,
411i°4,e. persons thought that he had.
he beu.lect, whilst others were of opinioi
..ido„reaght the subject forward was no
l'aso,)g. the course which he had pursuel
b it to t
41;1,:•hl.cihndhuecewhaismatboosuutpptoosse.uthmat he ha
a -' 'treader basis than either of the ti
4',,,,a111)°,11 it would enable the. people to
the ji, uisPosed to forward their anxious i
try e',l)e,ailiture He had received from
niaet,lhanation; which had been made
ittiOted against his former motions, bu
for ~..": In 18(8, when the people were
.0
tx.ir the ministers appom
1,i,11 consisted chiefly of governme
itito% "le confidence of government. I 1
' f aborious investigation on the subj ec
? wpich they published in the scheciuk
is
''reni these schedules it appeared th
'I
-elite offices existing in 1809 were as 1
in England and the colonies . .
:--......._ Scotland
bat ~,----Hreland
ets'iltr,d many sinecure offices had been
:11 -„11/i had been passed for the refoi
1 .4aTe‘atil,d
l'ilocti ile number of those remaining,
Nuld h lied that informatior
.tikvect ave supplied and Scotland, and he regre
4eVed bat r, had not yet been laid befo
kelt . that the amount of the sinecures
latitaggerated, but he wished the hou
sibeolvas rather to the principle of those
-epi, 1 - inoney drawn from t..e po .
,Ilitild 111e:emolument attached tohthenicktheats
Cule-a'e given to individuals who perform
llititZt:l It was incumbent on the how.
hit p,i'ats that they were determined in f
'orii,lleiPles. It was really painful to reflo.
lot k;3;lleY which had been squandered in
,yl)e`e'Otig. too far to assert that one-half
of
L to . Created by the payment of sinecure.at
heist
clildb7
1333 e
rssoinnse:clvuhroe 4
4peocalettlate, in addition to the sum 10 po ild interest upon them, that they were
4,11 Bstenssed influence in both Houses of P
lee
tizta:taio"nasiti.dnecbtito.n
Omneatsiutereus wolfiicAhphril,ad
181 c
a%to the house 'signed " Henry Goul
reside there, the
illeetilited to £53,000 annually. From I
Nit selected seven, including tne Hon. C
eight
6 „,„ra\ broke, and Sir C. Greville, who, he
oiclncotsinonly
Idetti"4„:the date of their appointment t!!..1
ke. ,Ty holdup to 1816, no less than 11,62°.
e fen"ls. the 13th of June, 1809, the fi,n,.artc
fOllOl5 the
report to the house :—" f. hante
ihy deeininittee that the existence of sine
'liil -ePtitY, is unnecessary and inexpedient
id, Public services." Shortly after the
hi it, oloved a resolution embodying the.
ly, ' which was negatived, and from that to
1401Wheo he made his motion, the questic
, ttl„,,,t al. nder the consideration of the hous,
itie-o"'!ier, after eulogizing the Marquess Car
N, ,1.14 which he had resigned the profitst,
I..(halaotinting to £23,117 per annum,
ti
a, '40—proceeded to mention some of
as follows
li,,
th ‘,l ... i
el'es H.,444Per, held by two young ladies, the
1.11,•°, all. Earl, (hear, hear.)
th isr.I:(PNII in Chancery, Earl Bathurst
ie '"ng's Bench, Lord Ellenborough,—
If 1:nr"1-1ear.") ....
ke e Seals in the Court of Common Pleas,
npef Grafton
kfadavits in Chancery, Hon. W. H

eli4ito'ilol'.binattehreisst
Iflocii.•• ....................... _
If ul aokrupts, Lord Thurlow
e,, 4anaper, Lord Thurlow
thane cotland, the Earl of Rosslvn.
'II • • •
u °use wuetiier such a system ought.
sitNl herY.:
........
... fur his children, the Earl
141.° when government were dischargipi
Qv
,le establishtnents ? (Hear, hear.) H
the' the present holders of sinecures ought
ee
,„111tIon, namely, first, " That, on all
.tu
t the Aces, in the naval, military, civil, t
al', country no new appointment shall be
motion
untouched. would n not
ie raise
ho n. thatm,.
.tol,owance,'or emoluments granted." It.
q ,7inl, however, he observed that it would
lees at and military," and to say, gent
and at home and abroad," which would coi
1, ` it,be resolution was so altered. The s!
ion ,:oat no person shall receive an appa
e, to which emolument was attached, till
',..° be Performed by deputy. The objectli,to
eir prevent any office being held by indptv
lo and y to tritel,dut iny 1822,res p
in the initsttuice ofoth Reeet
VOr asked the house to extend it to all of
st res.olution being put,

uch a
:
Lord _ prix
( any gre!ithe
cal princ. On 41.
Uty, the 0( kej
whiCa, yiti„_
ce. It
0.1. R.71C1"
hick rt he 41, ItEt
,d (HIM
the ev• •
io Vliac j ha thl4l(
bought. 10, gi
-814 lip
on• of t,
;ed state,' "rs ato 4(
b had b-IY churchnt
lose
that be,' that 1p in
iteo'Ain_ gt It was eset
Englaevo' iqsate,
''
re extq Parta oe
t
al
ng the' a runt rota
the to ;had beel,l,'G
anUttl•,i 'Ceti to
aroekiPtio 'd
it, a ise
yen' 'ess a
th .er,nedi,l4 14i4
ntire uelier 14C
,000,VIY tl
Inn te,,, e,abroa(l•
ivithi.
,vended..,vended..' a, Y teen ."
ended bis
these qf gold
vans Ilistt
tot,ll .beef
r,(41
at- otti
laLe.
. are "' he xi; 4"°11
a 'they .f ehtly, tioe
d
Evil) , Jethe taev. ai
ug
of 1: Ile
aeries, 4rt he iv ass,
cier ,
r°r
thea. Bteric t Nt.,4
kigh °r th
an be tbe e
Eng, b gßed t Put
out t. !ea ir°
of Ire e° ? "`rcQu,
p.
:owe ' ,
ease be
c,
very aeads n'7l()lte
L last „"tley ei" the
relig'° po, ther
there 'he ;1131e th;
a cier , dal int yor t
ivallY 6 hespecrSt,
not tO° -,elab to t
stioa, , altieettr be
tro,a, eas4r , a
It 14 'etiee could
it tb!: Lthattr ebje
disaa e ow,
,0
iar P. ea
Co
c c
the it I:o,,lll)Autati
the by ere;
acid °I)os: "ua sPressJ
1, the ve w4B
theh(
p Ye roil 4 o,
anutipt of siC
wh;ex
elf to • u,4Blvikt},,°d•
eue 310 "a; h' the v.
rived toeu,,erforw
y eau ' the iteY as w.
avou lvere taaitilee of
I erig •Ls. s,, ett
to
a fa:l4, C'eti 1)(
t woi>ld, eh be tobjet
of the °D,.sicip"'!ough
ties--; reas,`"ng ti
altar)] otie4 to ju(
desir3:t
ted ,40!„-' a 4,
produc 11,"ItPt)a it
tntrY;, the :8 disr,(
aleastl'A kiatry'lveo(li
in vie go expi„
3)ekri eetrhegalt • •Ei
tt
ef:11:1:144vit• :gel;
Tett).
it she' 1.1140:
z the `(
also. 'vt aboi.ii
, to i° ports .
ith e-P8 Billeerom.
Pri,a_t°l tilre,glittl'ePil

ie necessary fOr him to detain the
aiming arguments in favour of
commutation. (Hear.) His pri
,xplaining the 'principles of his
ttated, was undoubtedly of great
portant when considered as a In,
change that would be substantial].)
at the same time adding to the burl
he, however, entered into the mai
took to bring under their consider
that he should at the outset di
public with respect to the very
amount of the revenues of the dm
on several occasions, and very v.
hon. member. It had, for instal
member, that the revenues of the
were £9,000,000 per annum. N,
tion never was uttered. (Hear.)
bishops of England and Wale:
Sodor and Man, was but £158,54.
deans and chapters were £236,358
exact returns of the income of
had sufficient data for asserting ti
£3,000,000 sterling per annum, mi
bishops and the deans and chapte'
little more than £3,500,000, inSti
(Hear.) It would, perhaps, be bi
to show that he had not understal
chial clergy, the data on which hi
There were 11,400 livings in Em
turns from 9,660. These return,
per annum. Now, there was no
that the. remaining livings were
9,660 ; so that, taking the same
total of £3,226,000 per annum
This,equally divided, would give
with the revenues of the prebendi
also equally divided among the
an average of £3OO per annum
It was hardly necessary for him
sidered, £3OO per annum was not
sident working clergyman of the
it was also unnecessary for him
between the condition aiit circus
hand as would render a higher nn
latter. (Hear.) A great object
ing of the residence of a clergy.
cries of " Hear.") That, certai
ject. (Hear.) Whether consi(
or in a.political point of view, hi
one opinion of the desirableness,
in every parish. (Hear.) An(
would all agree that £3OO per at
come for the resident minister.
that income was to be obtained:
the revenue of the clergyman b.
bounden duty of the legislature
being, not only a source of disc(
persons paying, but also disadv
of the clergyman himself was
desirable that the revenue Oa
angry recriminations and collis
flock as might tend to impair hi
ness. (Hear, hear.) Now, tip
of church income, had been ton;
prejudicial collisions; and, ace
gislature had acted on the prim
ever a favourable opportunit3
bounden duty of the legislature
all obstructions in the way of th
gyman; that his income should
which almoSt inevitably endan
spirit of discontent and opposit
liuence as a minister of the gos]
The object of the measure was
adjustment of this question d
that it was most desirable that
purely permissive; that the lie:
and the tithe receivers—shoul
fairly agree as to the arrangem,
He would not say that he allow
missive measure would have tl
commutation of tithes througl
not be expected that a purely.
lutely effect all the objects wtn,
in the first instance, to give pi
owner, and the tithe-payer.
he begged to say that he did n,
tion should be confined to t,
(hear)—he thought that the p
mittatis vuttandis, to the lay it
that the measure which he waL
in the first instance, give power
owners, whether clergymen or lay impropris
arrangement for a commutation of tithes into si
rent, varying, of course, according to the price °t
converting tithes into a perpeiusa rent, it was 0,
sary to make its amount be measured by the
variations in the prices of corn. In making thi'
thought it right not to allow the clergyman of $1
mute the tithes of it without the consent of tbo
living and. of the bishop of the diocess; and, 00„1
not to allow the tenant of a farm to commute IT
the consent of the landlord. Ile proposed, in
th
to give twelve mouths after the passing of this ft
—the tithe-payer and the tithe-owner—by a I°
agreement entered into between them, to couk •
into a perpetual corn rent. But if, after that perl,,
a commutation should not take place, which P
must suppose would be the case in the ill 5
parishes, though he trusted that it would flat
proposed that the tithe-payer or tithe-receiver,
ing it necessary that the whole of the parish
the subject, but allowing any individual tithio
notice to the tithe-receiver that he intended
tithes,—he then proposed that the tithe-payer:
a valuator, and that the tithe-receiver shoUl
appoint, a valuator on the other side, and l"!„
proceed at once to a valuation of the tithes
the purpose of effecting a commutation of the'
one other measure which was absolutely
pressed more or less in point of time for imul e
tion, and which he hoped in a very short ti'
some other member of his Majesty's goverialueer
the honour of proposing, either in that house
House of Parhament,—he alluded to a measure
for the future pluralities in the church of Bog
With regard to other measures, there were dil
way of their adoption, but nevertheless he h°
that at early period other propositions would be,
to meet other evils. He would not pledge
present than to say, that some measures wool
ward by government for that purpose. As het;
commencement of his address to the house,
that this measure, though it did not appear to
magnitude, yet it' it should effect that which 10$
and general advantage to the public,—namely,,
of tithes, at an early period throughout the Co:
ceived that it would be entitled to be looked tie
of considerable magnitude indeed, though at h
might not attach such importance to it. This 13e
nant with this great advantage to the landed
interests of the county, that it would give the.
employing their capital upon their land, witheui
by the collection of tithes, which had always 1).k1;
the improvement of agricultural property
(Hear.) The noble lord concluded by inovk
bring in a bill to effect a commutation of tithes
Mr. A. BARING said a few words, which were
gallery.
Lord ALTIIOIIP, in answer, said that it was 4,
lieved, that wherever a composition for tithes 1),,
included the poor-rates, and that it would be o°'i
that the valuators should take them into the'
hereafter, whenever a commutation was about,
would be for the public benefit that the clerg)ll',
an interest in the poor-rates, in order to ensure
uistration.
Sir R. INGLIS said that the noble lord was bi
admit that this permissive measure ryas
The noble lord first gave permission, but he h"
wards by compulsion. The noble lord, in fact'
" Keeps the word of promise to the
But breaks it to the hope."
• On a more fitting occasion he should be prep°
a discussion of the details of this measure. I
hear the noble lord declare that he would de'
'l,,
in the same way, whether in the hands
w°ll
laymen. He trusted that such a principle ,
I ten when they were legislating on this subje°,
Mr. HUME thought it would be better for 011
missioners were appointed by government too
throughout the country and buy them up, and to,
•be paid either out of the Exchequer or by th
of Hear," and "Oh ! oh !") Such a plan
under the serious consideration of persons ilk,/
the noble lord; and if such a plan had been ilk,/
i• 40 -ears ago, it would have been better for the,
- Sir R: PEEL was sure that there was no
adverse to the principle of a conmmutation 014
t from being opposed to it, was ready to give 0337

such a principle _
and nciple the most careful consideration.
ALTHORP explained, that what was meant in that part
Measure was, that the tithe-receiver should have the
0r
a. paid according to the price of so many
b eing
certain grain, according to which the tithe had

'Eat, after alluding to other portions of the measure,
Agq itt.to a fuller discussion of it on future oc-

. • rEntGessoi a few wpr s which .
said
41., the it
ga ery. 4 were not distinctly
Ldliski
, 0. NGToN said, that dnring tliq last 130 years the
i the litigation hetween tithe payers and tithe 'anted to to a sum that would be sufficient to establish
in prosperity. When they recollected the difficul.
it
__.4 4, ssubject. they should not be ready to expect
w s„Pessible to overcome them all by one simple
,„„,_tte had objections to the mode of payment, and
,hs of the pl4n, but he would. reserve them until the
V-It into committee on the bill.
lI,G was glad to perceive that so little of party feel-
een raixeu u what d He was
to
0, . p the propose measure.
observe with temper the noble lord had intros
etr4and " great a desire he had displayed to act with
impartiality towards the interests of all parties
die lie hailed the introduction of the bill, inasmuch
sills vel that it would tend to dissipate the gross misrepre-
Liiroalyith regard to the established church which were
,e, 0. These temporary delusions,—for he the
'fil4n'arv,----the result of malevolence or ofignorance,
• 'vanish tier'
de lord ore the facts which the measure proposed by
1 - `so
'bring to light. They had already created
• ehon,,ell. t,
Amn-
' ,I°''' was of opinion that as little change as possible
iv +.l‘'a in the present rate of tithe payment; and, con-
-I"ruht that every man in the country should pay,
VW arrangement, pretty nearly the same as
.he did
41! assured the nobie lord that when the bill was
"Ivould give it his best attention.
Alh thought some difficulty would arise with respect
r the° it i kind, owing to the frequent removal of
. Purpose of shearing, feeding, &c., which prac-
. ‘• Pat in tome for the purpose of altering the rate.
• '0 ask the noble lord whether the present mea,sure
itittodueed with h btin of the heads ot the
t e appro a o

ITEI,
exp
hressed his approbation of the measure.
of t°llP said that the measure had been submitted to
either° church; but he was not authorised to state
y*Pproved or disapproved of it. Indeed it was
orthat the bishops should express any decided
the other upon a subject in which they had no
,rest, inasmuch as it affected parochial clergy alone.
t° the objection which had been started by the
lie admitted that there was much force in it, but
..oald be devised for the commutation of tithes to
iuhs objections might not be made. He would frankly
prone OIIIY Principle which could be substituted for that
as sat'i°sed was one of a general actual valuation of laud;
cor, sued that if that were made the basis of a measure
wolAlltation of tithes, so far from being considered a
extoreptTe !general discontent. The noble lord con-
.lo-I,Bs'ng his gratification at the manner in which
tisl'ad been received by the house.
Hum 'ell given to bring in the bill.
SINECURES.
1/1 ee Pressed a wish that, in bringing forward the
iUod he had given notice, his object might not be
With tie 011 two former occasions he had submitted
Pea, e view of putting an end to offices in which no
ruonev rrnen, and consequently to save so much of the
the 4-unas was paid to the persons holding those offices
take °f salaries and
e allowances. Objections, how-
-11 to the manner in which he introduced both the
hls4,,e persons thought that he had not sufficiently
iei),Neet, whilst others were of opinion that the time
ght the subject forward was not well chosen.
reasehtl tog. the course which he had pursued, however, he
1-„h°,ol duce him to suppose that he had done wrong.
-"en he was about to submit to the house was
a broader basis than either of the two others, and
Iva,P°ll. it would enable the people to ascertain how
e
"'sposed to forward their anxious wishes for les-
LryjPenditure. He had received from many parts of
bad;Planations which had been made by hon..mern-
oted
d against his former motions, but they
indni not
for le; In 181.8, when the people were urgenttheir.
wh.Lrenchinent, the ministers appointed a finance
eariti,i,ekh consisted chiefly of government officers. or
a I,°° confidence of government. 'phis committee
fw4t.''orious investigation on the subject of sinecures,
t 'tleh they published in the schedules attached to
14se From these schedules it appeared that the emolu-
.4:lliteptlices existing in 1809 were as follows:
41 41gland and the colonies .
bat Scotland
' d
re,an 82,000
tr,erkl°:(l many sinecure offices had been abolished by
tr,'eh had been passed for the reform of the law
lot 80`and and Scotland, and he regretted that he
v‘hieCe the number of those remaining, because the
•Inover°,.od have supplied that infdrmat.ion, and w ich
l'red ielr, had not yet been laid before the hou.se.
that the amount of the sinecures still existing
lath taggerated, but he wished the house to under-
!aoai t rather to the principle of those offices than
tliwe emolument attached to them that he. objected.
h„e oloney drawn from the pockets of an over-
huiear'\given to individuals who performed no duties
"stita It was incumbent on the house to satisfy
Istpriellts that they were determined in future to act
tot of 1,,-11e'Ples. It w:as really painful to reflect upon the
gineY Which had been squandered in this manner.
bq'e-41g too far to assert that one-half of the national
ry toll. created by the payment of sinecures, for it was.
40441eillate, in addition to the sum annually paid,
mss interest upon them, that they were paid to per-
-11( ,essed influence in both Ilouses of Parliament to
114C° Sanction measures which had contributed to
eitterntal.debt. On the 3d of April, 1816, a return
list e 00the house signed " Henry Goulburn," con-
1d h," sinecure •offices in only eight West India
!kal,' Persons who did not reside there, the emoluments
"lad-rated to £53,000 annually. From those indivi-
tselectecl seven, including tne Hon. C. W. Wind-
fr .a'uroke, and Sir C. Greville, who, he foud, had
thte;:tn, the date of their appointment to the sinecure
ke, l'f\ucy held up to 1816, no less than £1,623,950 in prin-
!, folh,',°, the 13th of June, 1809, the finance committee
this "-lug report to the house :—" That it is the opi-
de°nlmittee that the existence of sinecure offices,
114,ePutS', is unnecessary and inexpedient as a means
ilk' Public services." Shortly after the report was
it,e irlOved a resolution embOdying the. opinion ex-
-I„,w "ich was negatived, and from that time until the
icceen he made his motion, the question had not
raetmoktider the consideration of the house. (Hear.)
aer ?er, after eulogizing the Marquess Camden for the
e, :,,„.11 which he hiid resigned the profits of his sin -
014L.°11., °tin,' to 1:23,117 per annum, to the public
as -2)--pro'ceeded to mention some of the sinecures
144 s
1(14) ' E. s. d.
Idiots
.le H • • 963 0 0
r3.o,.'llaPer, held by two young ladies, the
the tt.., ati. Earl, (hear, hear.)
the l..°,vn in Chancery, Earl Bathurst llOB 0 0
iel rag Bench, Lord Ellenborough,
til-1 --
tlte e Seals in the) Court of Common Pleas, 7905 0 0
of,of Grafton 2286 0 0
... 4fadavits in Chancery, Hon. W. H
1816 0 0
.0f ........... ; ..................
8502 0 0
k the tuKrupts, Lord fhurlow
janaper, Lord Thurlow
lt,„'''cotland, the Earl of Rosslvn 1712 0 0
lti'eerY, held fur his children, the Earl
the
ito• ..................
time use whether such a system ought to be conti-
hijtewhen
,gshoments vernm ?
ent
(Hear, were discharginghear.)op laboure7
1,444 ,establi
uheuii.° Present holders of sinecures ought to he de-
uut his motion would not raise that question, as
interests untouched: The hon. member then
r.,11,„"°05, namely, first, " That, on all future vacan-
the' Offices, in the naval, military, civil, or colonial
aftlllltrY, no new appointment shall be made, nor
'to hi ante, or emoluments granted." It had been
Ut ,Clll, however, he observed, that it would be better
ito naval and military," and to say, generally, "
si-
qat home and abro-ad," which would convey no re-
i e resolution was so ared The second reso-
hat no person shall re lteceive. an appointment to
as to',° which emolument was attached, the duties
one performed by deputy. The object of this
It,, prevent any office beingleld by individuals who
:u :Ditnteir duty and responsibility to olliers. This p
rst °ined, in 1822, in the instance of Beceiyers-Gene-.
w asked the house
p tuo extend it to all offices.
resolution beint,

Lord ALTIIORP said, that in respect to the substance of the
motion, he felt no objection to it whatever. (Hear.) The hon.
ruemberhad; however, cited a number of offices, from the re-
port of 1816, several of which he knew had been abolished. He
was surprised that the hon. member had mentioned the case of
Lord Thurlow, which was abolished by the bankruptcy bill.—
Lord Frederick Campbell, too, who had held an office in the
Chancery of Scotland, was dead. He, therefore, hoped that the
house would not believe that all this list of offices still remained.
He was not prepared to say how many had been abolished, but
there had been several, and all would cease on the death of the
holders. With respect to civil and colonial offices, he had not
the least objection to the motion as it stood; but with regard to
naval and military offices, a noble friend behind him (Lord
Ebrington) had given notice of a motion for a committee of in-
quiry into military offices, and it was not his (Lord Althorp's)
intention to oppose that motion,—so far from it, that he sug-
gested to him to add naval offices,—and it would be better for
the hon. member not to interfere with that motion.

The motion was then agreed to.
Mr. HUMS, in moving his second resolution, called the at-
tention of the house to:the colonial appointments made in Eng-
land, of which the house knew nothing till they had taken
place abroad ; and in a great many crises individuals had ob-
tained situations who were entirely unfit and unworthy. He
submitted the propriety of all appointments to colonial offices
being gazetted.
Lord SANDONT confirmed the statement of the hon. member,
with respect to Canada, on the authority of Sir George Mur-
ray, and-hoped that the suggestion would be adopted.
Lord ALTHORP said he would not object to the motion.
With regard to the, guggestion of the hon. member, he was
not adverse to it, thopgh he would not pledge himself to the
adoption of it.
The resolution was then agreed to.
Mr. HUME moved "That all offices filled up after this date,
in any department under the Crown, civil, military, naval, or
colonial, shall be subject to such alterations as to duties, and
to such deductions and alterations as to salary and emoluments,
as His Majesty's ministers, or the heads of departments under
the sanction of this house, shall make, without the persons so
appointed having any claim for compensation or allowance for
such alterations."

Lord ALTHORP objected to this motion. The effect of it, he
observed, was to regulate offices hereafter, and the Crown had
that power which it had acted upon, and had reduced the sala-
ries of several situations. '['he house in passing this resolution
would assume that it would be out of the power of the Crown
to regulate officers hereafter appointed.
Mr. R. C. FERGUSSON objected to the motion. It was either
unnecessary, as the Government had the power already, or the
house gave to the Crown a power it had not.
Mr. klumE would be glad to know if the Government had
the power of reducing, the salary of a judge who might be ap-
pointed to-morrow? If the noble lord said "yes," he would
withdraw his motion.

Lord ALTHORP said that, as to the judges' salaries, they were
fixed by act of Parliament.
Mr. tiumE withdrew his motion.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL brought in a bill to provide for the
trial of petitioners complaining of bribery and corruption,
which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second time
on Tuesday.

Such •
' rd !Princi
r.,
,I? n.I.THOII
e house, at any C,;(;'1,..e Measure
the general prtl;e';',";len, of bein
rincnl dutyl,:hich, . v'alufed.a ce,
; measure, It eir
ilnpOrtanCe..
ivoihki he
~,_ tEt.,
neasure whien .04i 'nuuld u,
e-tn OD. o
ily just and q
eoldr.
_.
urdens of the iicolitrd -'' rE,G,
ain question n' ht.-
r.
g ',lO 111, the gal
eration, he thauriltvehs cstitriG.
lisabuse hon- rate Aver e of the
sra ee s anion
exaggerated al) Ty ehur me
Lurch, which bat burp tb, ell it, n
in bes t li,
recently erte tt it c t
ince, been ass I,odrur WaS pus
a clergy of Engtoo er e' Ile I
row, a more net Iv 8e I),,rts of tl
) The total 'lle i ~. tent int,
i
es, including yes had LA ansiG v
527, and the ' li ic,„",l ucen raj
358, per anntilliial d'rt to ohaer'
' all the par"c lilt es,' and he,
that it was ve/e 0 tem-41144 ini,
naking, with t reo. e bell • Ile'
ters, an entire 4 Ifltatie,, eve!' tb
tead of £9,o°°'` 50' e ab;18 with
better for him teed el), ,oad. T
ated the revenal ho 0014ielfipnrar
he had foundeu tub!. l'anish t
ngland • of thee 0,- lord ,
,let e -
..vo
'as gave a toured„ otti s nougb•
o reason whate'''oo alit b -t!snoN
of a higher are ~,, hewie Inad4 i
re,
tieltlitpcirwsisoaibtyrioeuarirtsubll
average, the,' „.i i tbY, thou,'
for 11,400 liv'''e:, re e new Z
an average of .1,:.` i ouoit .11e asst
daries, deaneries,, . Ilr. , la he r
a parochial cleoL+ o,„,,LIALconI
a and no more.,/ivesto°,.',k\Nio:
1 to contond that/ .'
t 4• C 4 tor th
'u 14 'lst b c
of too high an 1,1 4,„ e Put
le chureh of k;l4, dl3 '6ed to
i to point out.. 0' ,
.umstances of ir ~. 0
nominal income ' ~(1-'l4,,rE,s
e,
Let of his ineasiire, he4443l.'rtioliF
yman in every , .Le
linty, was a me 4/ Y eigtfhetrilea
idered in a religo
he was sure there
sof having a Clcr7 ,:".111terest,
id he was equal') , it,'"Pect t
Lnuum was not to ,ekber foor I
. The question, t eared, he
.; that is, from 'TO'l, sears conk!
be derived? Ir,_ t tiellicas ob.
e to prevent to,"
.b attile nil
content and disoo e:Prepe:l
vantageous so far „,,, aSSatisfi-C,
concerned. It i' it toihrautae
iould not be the by er.l
:sinus between th; to Y exi,,e_'
Iris influence, aria „Pasifirn
ithes in kind, deep .e Was thei3
.
ng felt to be pio'-,45 • H
'cordinglv, for , ,t 1 CSII.I
iciple of -commutt°,t idetif which[
ty presented itse' 48rsteociu
e to exert itself to • i, with the
:he beneficial cue Y 46 peril
A not be derived • money nrrr
we
e as
ngered angry cOiii wet, aaihe
;mon so unfavna, ,
~ e take, 1
spel. (Loud cril
.hed Suoie
Ls to produce a fad , 10114 eb.
of tithes. It Iv° . ue br J(
t a measure of the 'nside,,Ont
- ..... re, -41.,
espective parties 1,4 et.soh tobi
ild come voluntall ett 'O4 w
nent that was tieslr,,t i !IPot, ale,
gether expected vs'. „I'lotte u
the effect of prod!' me
vratdr?
;hunt the country+, _ a ls
..stir , qtr.,expert
Lich
me-.or tie ii' ex it
Lich they had in v' I,- had ve,_
power to the clerkl ,dB'sthhlcite
When he spoke ()it' tt for ret
rot think it fair Oa 4 lie, Wiii I.'
the tithe-propertY . • avil illi
provisions of it she ilslito,
all.
unpropriators also' jof wh'.'°
as now about to I'l nits ~,
,wer to the tithe-10 ° sihee 'ra
or lay imnrooriat° 1 (4regli;._e.