The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1843-02-17 00:00:00

income-tax

PREVENTION OF FIRES—PROPOSED PARLIAMENTARY DIL.
Sir Taos. BRANCKER said this special council bad been
summoned at the request of the Special Committee on Fires,
not for the purpose of giving any detail of their proceedings,
but because, if they were to go to parliament at all this ses-
sion, it was necessary they should present their petition to
the House of Commons in a very few days. "
had drawn up a report in general terms, merely
the council to give them authority to take the
of introducing a bill, for it to be read the first time. -
bill would afterwards be laid before the council; and at pre-
sent he did not know that more than five minutes need be
taken in reading the committee's report, and in det-
What step to take. He would conclude by sayin,
eotnmittee did not call upon the council to pledge t,
to the proposed measure, or to incur any serious ex
Mr. HottivnY inquired whether the committee ha,
eeedings to produce? If they had, it would be d'
them to be read before the intended bill was
ward.

committee

fling upon

!rmilling
that the

,ereby property ro

proved.

first reading.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—Then there was the more reason
why they should go on. He would remark, after what they
had beard to-day, that it would be a very sensible thing to
bring in a bill, for placing the paving of the streets in the
council, instead of there being two separate bodies. That
would be good common sense. They had heard enough to-
day to see what an absurdity it was to have two bodies work-
ing in that way, and the Town-clerk would tell the council
so. too • and, moreover, if they were separated the streets
would be better paved. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PROCTER wished for a little more information from
Sir Thomas Brancker. He had said that it was intended to
give the Highway Board the whole control of the water?
Sir Twos. BRANCKER.—Yes ; they have the control of
the pipes.
Mr. PROCTER replied that the Watch Committee would
not be satisfied with that.
Mr. Alderman EARLE feared that, with the Watch Com-
mittee against it, the public would suffer.
Mr. H ODGSON said, the fact of the committee having
had so many points to settle had made it difficult for them
•.. come to a conclusion so as to enable them to offer the
details of the measure to the council in time for the present
session. It was only just now that they had been able to
arrange the parts which each body should take; and though
it might not be thought that one body should take the paving
of the streets as well as the management of the water, yet if
that was opened as a matter of conflict now, it was clear the
council would not be able to obtain the remedy which they
sought. The question was, whether the council were prepared
to take upon themselves the responsibility—merely for the
purpose of delay, and for getting information which, after all,
was distinctly promised before the second reading of the bill
—of throwing aside the whole of the scheme for another year.
They would not only expose themselves to the unfavourable
comment which circumstances that might possibly arise
would justly bring down upon them ; but did they not know
that the feeling now abroad, which would enable them to
accomplish this which was so desirable, might cool, and that
they might find next year that they could not get on? The
arrangement was now made, and if they tried to upset it by
voting (for it was clear there must be a vote), the object
would be upset; and the object was so great, that he was
not afraid of its being Carried with the utmost harmony. As
soon as the bill bad passed the first reading, all the details
would be made the subject of discussion, just as if it had
never been undertaken ; and the expense, he believed, was
so trifling, that they would all be ashamed of making that a
subject of discussion, even for the purpose of delay.
Mr. PARKER contended that more information was re-
quired before proceeding to a decision. It was true un-
doubtedly that there had been communications between the
Fire Committee and the Highway Board, but no plan had
yet been laid down to enable the council to judge of the
merits of the bill ; and he was of opinion that before going
to parliament at all every detail should be produced. From
the information of a practical man, he begged to say that the
fire in Crompton-street could not have been better managed
than it was; and as to that in Greenland-street, it was a po-
sitive fact that the more water there was thrown upon it the
more it blazed. (Laughter.)
Mr. PLATT said, so tar from that being the Case, no water
could be got there for more than half an hour after the fire
was discovered. (Hear.)
Mr. PARKER was satisfied that all the acts of parliament
in the world would never remedy the evil. Besides, when-
ever they went to parliament, the burden fell upon the
inhabitants. It was for the benefit of the mercantile com-
munity only that the inhabitants were called upon to pay.
(Cries of " No, no.") Then they were asked, " 'What would
Liverpool be without her merchants?" True, but what
would the town be without a population ? It would be an
empty shell! (Loud laughter.) This was a question be-
tween the insurance companies and the mercantile interests—
(no, no)—not between the ratepayers and the merchants;
whilst all the burden would fall .upon the ratepayers ; and
seeing that there was so little information on the details, he
hoped the council would agree to postpone it another year.
He was perfectly willing to bear his share of the responsi-
bility of delay.
Mr. Alderman Nicol, suggested that the Town-clerk
should give the council a general idea of the bill. It would
save time, and prevent gentlemen from having the trouble of
making speeches. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. PLATT, as a heavy sufferer by the late fire in Green-
land-street, begged to say it was very evident to him that
Mr. Parker knew nothing about the matter. (Laughter.)
Had there been a supply of water at the time the fire was
discovered, it might have been readily extinguished ; but
there was none till three-quarters of an hour afterwards, and
under such circumstances anybody who knew the combustible
nature of the materials would not wonder at the conflagration
being so serious.
Mr. PA RKER.—I only say that Mr. Whitty tried the ex-
periment, and the, more water he threw on the flames the
more they burned! (Laughter.)
The AYOR.—That seems extraordinary doctrine. If it
is so, that is one reason why we should have no bill at all ;
water either, if that principle be correct ! (Renewed

0-- -
Sir Tuos. BRANCKER, in reply, said that the proceedings
of the committee consisted mainly of communications with
Mr. Bold, Mr. Stewart, and others, from whom they had
received reports which would in due time be laid before the
council. The present, however, was merely an initiatory
step, which, if the council went at all to parliament, must be
done immediately, or the session would be lost altogether.
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK then read the report of the
special committee, of which tha following is a copy :

a penalty; whether, in short, .they should not be regularly
indicted, and, if proved guilty, be punished by fine and
prisonment, or either of them. Such were the
tions ; and he would only say himself, that if this bill were to
go on in another session. P- nresent session, sr'
the '

Uest course would be to get it printed for the present
session. At the same time, he did not at all despair of the
bill being brought forward in the present session, if the
council so pleased ; but, in either case, the bill, being printed,
must stand the test of the most rigorous examination by
every interest concerned; and every man who had anything
to assert against it ought to be fairly and quietly heard, what-
ever his rank of life might be ; for he certainly thought, that
unless it stood all these tests it would only be an act of par-
liament which, in another session, would have to be re-
pealed.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE asked if there was any arrange-
ment between the Paving Board and the council, that if the
bill of the council failed theirs should be withdrawn also?
Mr. Jonx HOLMES replied that the Paving Board were
going on with their bill merely.' at the suggestion of the com-
mittee. The Highway Board thought, at one time, it would
would be much better to postpone both bills till the next
session ; and he thought from what the Town-Clerk had
just said, that that would be the best step yet.
The Town-Clerk had not said that postponement would be
the best step. He thought the bill should be proceeded with
as far as the first reading, this session even if they could lot
go en till next session.
Mr. BIRKETT observed that that was precisely his reason
for voting in the committee for recommending the council to
apply to parliament this session, upon the distinct under-
standing that both bills should be submitted to the inhabit-
ants previous to the second reading, when no great expense
had been incurred.
Mr. PLATT presumed that the Town-Clerk was aware that
there was an act of parliament against dangerous trades
passed forty years ago,—for instance, his own trade (Mr.
Platt's)—being carried on unless at a certain distance from
any other building.
The TOWN-CLERK was perfectly aware of that act, but in
going before Lord Shaftesbury they had found it difficult to
convince him of the policy of those restrictions.
Mr. HODGSON thought it most important to make a com-
mencement in this matter, because the council would then be
committed ; but if they postponed it till another session a
great many intervening circumstances might occur to put it
aside. If they commenced now they would go on.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES referred to the plan which Mr.
Adcock (whom he spoke of as one of the most scientific in-
dividuals existing) had desired to lay before the council, and
expressed his opinion, that if the gentlemen named bad
communicated with Mr. Adcock, his plan would have been
adopted and proved successful, so perfectly simple and so
effectual was it.
Mr. Alderman BRAmLEy-MooRE said, that after the ob-
servations which had fallen from the chairman of the Finance
Committee, he was rather disposed to acquiesce in the post-
ponement of the bill ; but baying since listened to the exposi-
tion of the Town-clerk, he confessed that he saw strong
grounds why the council should proceed immediately. In
the first place, the council were informed that, until the first
reading of the bill, no expense in fees would be incurred--
Mr. ASPINALL.—Yes; about £3OO.
Mr. BRAMLEy-MoORE.—And consequently, as it would
advance the business, he would say, " let the bill be printed,
and let the inhabitants be put in possession of it as well as
the council." It was from the town that the council must
hear objections and receive instructions in this matter.
(Hear.) It was clear that there were a great many conflict-
ing interests involved, and before going to parliament it was
only proper that they should be in a position to judge of the
details. To judge of them now would be exceedingly pre-
mature; it would be taking too hasty a step, because none
were competent to form an opinion from hearing the report
read, nor would they be in that position till the bill bad been
printed and placed in their hands. The argument that they
would be throwing away a large sum Of money, therefore,
fell to the ground. With regard to what Mr. Parker had
said, as to this being a question between the merchants
and the insurance companies, he (Mr. Moore) held a totally
different opinion, because every body knew that occasionally
a fire was a desirable thing for an insurance company, and a
great good. They might lately have been too frequent for
them ; but the insurance companies had all lately raised their
premiums 50 or 60 per cent., which was a great consideration
not only to the merchants but to the inhabitants, because if
property was destroyed and insurance was raised, it was clear
that you enhanced the value of the property that was left.
With regard to the bill involving a rate, the town would
speak its sentiments upon that subject when the bill was
before the inhabitants; in the meantime, it was not for the
council to consider whether they would incur any obligation
by the measure, whether it would increase the rate id. or
id., or whether there was no rate at all; bat they ought to
be guided by what was consistent with the general interests
of the town. If they were to consult every individual whe-
ther he would pay 6d. or Id., he might object to both, be-
cause he might not be in the district where fires occurred ;
but nevertheless he was boand to contribute his proportion
towards the general benefit of the community. The consi-
deration of a rate, therefore, ought not for one moment to
weigh with the council, seeing that it was yet necessary to
take steps to putthernselves in a position to judge what would
be the best and most advisable measure for the genera
benefit.

"REPORT.
appoin"Theted o the sth Octob, 1842, to
inquire into the most
efficacious measures againster fires, and
also the best means of arresting the progress of any fire
which may hereafter unfortunately break out, have agreed
upon the following report—
_ " That the Commissioners for the better Paving and
evt,•erage of the town have, in consequence of communica-
tions with this committee, determined upon going to parlia-
ment, in the present session, for a bill, to enable them by
river
contracts with proper parties, and if necessary, from the
, to provide water for the watering of the streets, in re-
servoirs and mains, which supply would be constant, and
Friable them upon reasonable terms to afford water at the
instant from such mains in every part of the town, and im-
mediately as the
object already stat agency might arise, for the important
That, this important "mint being attained, the committee
recommend to the CounCil to go along with the bill of the
commissioners to parliament for powers by another bill, to
contract for such s 1 of,water, (which will not to any
material extent increase the expense now charged upon the
police rate,) and to regulate the position as to the width of
vvs streets and the better construction and management of
arehouses hereafter to be erected in the town, so as to pre-
vent the recurrence of loss of life and property, which, of late
years, have so frequently visited this town, and as far as may
be reasonable, and deemed by the Council practicable, to
h Plplouy a part of such regulations and management to ware-
es already erected.
"That these powers are proposed by the committee, to be
inserted in a bill, which, as soon as printed, should be circu-
lated amongst the Council and laid before the public, in
order that it may receive every possible consideration and
suggestion prior to any material expense being incurred.
That, until this shall be effected, which will require the
immediate devotion of considerable time on the part of the
committee and their legal assistants, the committee desire
from the Council permission to proceed to the printing of the
bill, and to the extent of its being read a first time ; the se-
cond reading standing over until the measure shall have had
that consideration which the committee are anxious for, not
only from the Council but from the public."
Mr. PLATT understood that some time ago an offer bad
been made to the council by the canal company of the spare
water of the canal, if a reservoir was constructed. He
wished to ask whether that proposition bad been carried
into effect ?
Mr. TeroaNniee replied that no such offer had ever been
made. He (Mr. Thornhill) was upon a deputation which
waited upon a number of the proprietors of the canal, but
they had made no such offer.
Mr. PLATT.—I think you recommended it?
Mr. THORNHILL.—It was mentioned in the town, but not
carried into effect. They would give us the overflow, and
nothing more; but that could not be depended upon.
Sir Tnoeres BRANCKER observed that this was a point
for the consideration of the highway-board. All the com-
mittee wished, at present, was, to have power to get the bill
read a first time, and afterwards, the council might proceed
with it or not, just as they saw fit.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE really thought the committee
ought to give the council something more to guide them-
selves than the meagre report which they had just heard, for
he did not see how they could possibly form any opinion a'
all with such a report. The committee asked permi'
go to parliament, which was a very serious step,
considerable expense, yet they did not tell the council
whether it was for the prevention of fires or to extinguish
them when once they began.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKER.—For both.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE, resuming, said that was a reason
why the committee should give the council something more in
detail the nature of their proposition. The only thing that lie
gathered from the report was, that there were to be two acts
of parliament, both for the same object ; the highway-board
were to have one act and the corporation another. 1-1,
thought they should be ridiculed and laughed at in I
if they said there that such a thing was necessary.
rather absurd, indeed, that one body should sweep the streets
and another pave them ; but, really, to say that two acts of
parliament were required for the one purpose proposed, all the
expense of which would have to be borne by the town, was,
certainly very hard. Added to that he should be desirous to
keep out of parliament this year. The people of London
were quite tired of them (laughter), and be never met a
member of parliament in London bat he eras asked by him,
" sess Wionell,? how many bills save you from Liverpool this
" (Hear, hear.) At the same time, he was deeply
interested in this question, for he was a warehouse owner,
and one who had suffered materially in purse by the recent
conflagrations, inasmuch as he belonged to the Fire Insu-
rance Company of Liverpool. Resides, he thought it a dis-
grace to the town to have such disasters in it as those which
had occurred ; but, at the same time, he was 3tot one of
those who liked to rush into matters precipitately; and if
the Fire-Committee were not prepared with something more
definite than they had yet seen, he hoped the conned would
Pause b
Mefore giving their permission to proceed one step.
TAYOR suggested, that Sir Thomas Brancker might
be able to give the council some information upon the heads
of the intended bill. The present did not appear a desirable
period to enter into details ; but if the heads were furnished,
they might materially assist the discussion.
Sir THOMAS BRANCRER replied, that the object of the
committee was to provide for the making of all new ware-
houses, as far as possible, fire-proof. As regarded roe exist-
ing warehouses, the committee proposed to do what was pos-
sible in order to render them more secare from ire than they
Were at present ; and the reason why the business was divided
into two parts was, that when the committee came to confer
with the Commissioners of Highways, they faend they had
atrong themseobjections to any parts meddling with the streets except
lves. It was originally intended that all shoeld be
comprised in one bill, if they went to parliament at all, but the
mobjections started were so strong that it was considered best
atere the Highway Board the entire management of the
part of the business ; and the Fire Committee had un-
dertaken to go to parliament for powers for the prevention of
fires.
Mr. ICILSHAW.—That is, provided the council agrees.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKER.—Yes ; provided the council
!igreed. The committee could not undertake the other part,
neeause it was not in their province.
BoardMr ASPINALL, as one of the members of the Highway
~ reserved to himself the right of opposing this bill.
!etlwo bills were to be framed, neither of which were
commenced. Next Friday week was the last day
,11 which they could be presented ; and, Wee,theref he
'e3Posed the proposition, because it was too hasty. 154°, it, too, upon another and a very serious ground,
a Warne(Y, that the Highway Board had pledged themselves to
nier:te of one penny in the pound before they had called a
sanction tin of the inhabitants to know whether they would
pi it. He (Mr. Aspinall) contended, that before Pro
edgiPg themselves to an additional rate of one penny, such
ti.ceeding should have been b a meeti of
"e Inhabitants ; and, on thesesanctioned grounds, hey ng
opposed the
report.
nrMr, Alderman Nicol thought some misunderstanding was
ierva,-,iling : gentlemen were confounding the bill which the
, c ‘-otrirnittee proposed to apply for, with that of the High-
,ay De
eoun'.'uard ; but he apprehended that the sanction of the
Thced_was not necessary to that of the Highway Board?
,'r• Alder l'ows-ctkatx.—Not at all.
to ',man Nicole—The council, then, having nothing
i_cno w.ith the bill of the Highway Board, it was not that bill
e°o4.Wchi.ch the committee applied for the sanction of the
strode",c ti but it was for a bill intended to regulate the con-
n of new warehouses, to regulate the width of streets
le which th
the _ . , ee were built, and, as far as they could, to improve
hendeex,isting warehouses ; the details of which, be appre-
council
,wmild be of some length, and would detain the
Was, to L°° long even to be then read. The truth, however,
tteee_!',e, To 'g
had been so much occupied with other
speer that the bill was not at present prepared; but, re-
the.rig that, he could inform the council better than he
t Alderman Nicol) could. At all events, with the bill of
47! gm,hwaY Board the council had nothing to do.
erteeti urteceeer thought it desirable to remind the council
Septa I' how this matter was placed. In the latter end of
col, r.riber or the beginning of October the attention of the
firen,ctltst_waswdrawn to the subject by an awfully calamitous
!ma 'a
v"ney were memorialized by all the associated bodies ;
be de_ rY universal feeling prevailed that something should
....„,dijerielebly..atshem. A special committee was appointed, of
‘eriai ' a member; and. up to last week he always en-
liattpld,the opinion that it was not desirable to go to tsar.
must say "Ps year. . In expressing that opinion. however, he
as it Inhe felt himself in an awkward position, inasmuch
Nhe w.., rt be thought that, being a very heavy rate-payer,
can,esirous'of Shielding
Pie gre.himself from :expense ; but
.when
tc.'eorfsider the Situation the town was placed in by
r;itei • hte, 'and that during the time the committee were
Staten another great.fire had taken place, as Mr. Holme could
ti ' °wing in
eels , , a great degree, to the want of those. precau-
to aree"ecn he trusted were about to be taken, he was forced
to ;enowledge it was desirable they should attempt, at least,
e ootaie tt
Ills, ie. le bill this year. With regard to there being
of
tliglieue council were ' aware that the Commissionerswater
the• scree[
shad the power to repair the highways and
to
bill
eine° tects ; and In the last' session they nbtainetl a _
111 dWering'theed tolay a rete Of one halfpenny in the pount.dl
thiiir"ti! t° halre the streets watered. It Was "w PC°P7'lFt
!het alttabigll should bp. done 010 ohie,:: "4 Prn- penny in the pound
should be laid, for the
away with, and in lieu C i ,
II and supplying
Water C'S of watering the streets genera y •
%us, . the preveetion of fi es The committee had Tor.-
them, to the conclusion, frOth the
evidence,) that
Pothin'k'no they had had no contradictory .
evidence mime
(mill eljecloduld ever prevent fires,
4Poe 1. k sat
as they had done, un ess there was a source
when they did take place,
sepplywn•ifiee at all tithes dependence could be placed for ca
elPerie water. It was quite impossible ;
whenever there
had
erica of the last 20 years had shown that and, indeed, the
apply of great fire it was simply because. tltenrenc.‘b•
heeesssa°' water. It was, therefore, in order taasiiiiiotthias
45 the r_Y.supply of water, for the prevenloini
wofayfigosarads,wnenltl
tier„ t, seering of the streets, that the Ilig
11 Choir owe motion but having been moved to it by telt':
subject •
te
`-'owillaitteelnof the council, had taken up
and
they intended to a 1 to pa rliarnent for thepowerrtow,,reaiosef
Pus/.4:11: q c'oney not exceeding
ththisPusulm-they
ProholtBN tanks and laying mains. To repay X 30,000 for e
weil'itil
called rate of one penny in e pound. They
opirlio have the inhabitants together andttiteaykmenusttbebier
befuren thereon but for the circumstance that •
no
tittl parliament next Friday week, so that•theretwinas
the
e for it•'re • , go to parliament tele, • new resolution was to
hetweeway as the council, and to place the bills in abeyance
the iii 4 the first and second readings, until thewonpuiludrosanne!
ti„_abitants had been obtained whether they ,
en the
kinli,,,icouncil
council must bear
zsirt oners would not go ; but the
n
e°
IL
I f the would pot go to parliament thine
4 tbat in takinwtheinitiatpry stete tidy a ligedmitetnd admnonunyt
thie;Pense Weis incurred, and If they now refa
-4,.........-

nvolving

wondon
It was

laughter.)

Mr. S."HOLME.—I hope it does not apply to malt! (Con-
tinued laughter.)
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—It's a new discovery, Mr. Mayor.
Mr. PARKER..--It is based upon science, sir.
The TOWN-CLERK said, he should be glad to give the
Council any information in his power; and he would begin
by stating that he had never, in his life, met with any bill
which seemed so full of difficulty as the present. It was a
bill in which they could not be materially assisted by counsel,
for it was a bill as to which every provision must be framed
by the band of men who had some practical information, as
well as some legal knowledge, to satisfy an act of Parliament.
He despaired of such advantage from the assistance of coun
sel, any further than testing what he did himself, and in see-
ing whether the bill would stand the objections of opposing
counsel. He considered it a bill of the greatest importance
to the town of Liverpool, and he was satisfied that though
the bill might be prepared, and go on this session (which was
not at all to be despaired of), that the best thing they could
do for the town would be to proceed at once to the first read-
ing, even if it were ultimately to stand over to another session.
He did not, however, think that would be the result; but if
there should be a prospect before tbern of its standing over
he would say, " proceed at once to the presenting of the bill,
for I consider that every clause to be put in that bill must be
tested by being put into a printed shape before it would be
at all likely to answer the purpose." With regard to the de-
tails of the bill it would be very easy to state them ; but it
was extremely difficult indeed to put those details into legal
language. In the first place he would draw the attention of
the Council, before he stated the heads of the bill, to this
fact, that they had before them a most desirable point gained
in the disposition upon the part of the Commissioners
of Paving and Sewering to go to Parliament for an act
to enable them to supply the town with water in every
part—not by reservoirs here and there, but by mains, by
which water would be furnished wherever it was wanted,
and at all times and under all circumstances, as was fully ex-
plained in the report before the Council. Here he must be
allowed to mention, that it was not any part of the plan of
the Commissioners for Paving and Sewering, as he under-
stood it, to interfere, in the slightest degree, with the powers
of the Watch Committee, or those of the Fire Police Com-
mittee ; they were, in fact, only to supply the water to be
used by the Fire Police Committee just as the Fire Police
Committee would use the water at present : they would exer-
cise no control over the water beyond the placing of it in the
mains in all parts of the town wherever it could be wanted,
and then the Fire Police Committee would exercise their
power upon the materials so provided for them. As to
the general details of the bill, he would say, in the first place,
it had been his desire to begin with placing the execution of
the bill under the regulation of a committee of the council,
just as any other branch of the duties of the council. Then,
it was easy to enact very useful things as to the new
warehouses. Now. as to new warehouses, there could be no
objection to enact that they should be built with iron doors
and iron shutters ; and he thought it must turn out, upon
consideration, but only after the most serious consideration,
that this provision ought to be made to apply to the existing
warehouses. (" Hear, hear," from Mr. Birkett.) Then,
there was one most useful provision, which he nould state
upon the authority of a gentleman of great practical experi-
ence in the town, that it would be a great protection to ware-
houses if there was, between the roof of one warehouse and
the roof of another, either parapet walls or a wall to prevent
the communication of fire, serving also as a protection to
persons who might be upon the warehouse not upon fire
when repelling the flames from that which was burning.
Mr. G. A. LAWRENCE.—That is for future warehouses?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Yes ; for future warehouses. With
the protection of iron doors and shutters, to a great extent,
the existing warehouses would remain in their natural con-
struction. In the next place, he apprehended there would be
no great difficulty in enacting that, in future, no warehouse
fur the deposit of goods should be built without a space of
sixteen yards in front of it, whether it consisted of a street,
square, or court; and again, there should be 4t passage
within any new warehouse, Which,' for 'every one hundred
yards, at least, shOttld Wien yards wide. When he stated
VA' the miMber 106 was used by him more as an illustration
than anything else, because it might be fixed at fifty yards,
or two hundred yards, just as the committee thought
proper. Again, if there should be any communication
with that passage, so as to admit assistance to arrive to
put down a fire there, it should be by means of a passage
covered in that way so as to be fireproof. For instance, if it
should be determined by the mercants of this town, as he
understood was not at all unlikely, to build warehouses
in
squares or courts, they would take care that any communi-
cation from the streets into that square or court should be by
gaopioasigsaignetoso h co o np
as trit
leodr
assqutaore or protectoo fire-policeurt. heoag owi
oh,
itpn
would be for consideration—but only
yfor consideration until
they saw how far they could put
the
shape—how far they could overcome thePlre°vailaid9° into
;noint
fact, sq sooq as they could make the objecgt. ip;ef% legal
so much in legal language, but so that practicalwthl men could
understand it, for they had to deal not
hyipbrell msvflisoeoinsooilntyrs.:
but surveyors and others who must know what
othe bhuaiellwdl
in thebe printdo ae
ofi tt
able s o soon,to
submith
es this could
council
as to fireproof warehouses, in which certain
dangerous nature should be warehoused, and to giocls wof
a
houses those goods should be restricted. There was
anotherotal7e;
suggestion, and one of great importance, that instead of
legislating as to the distance between dangerous trades
and the warehouses which contained the wealth of the
merchants of the town, that the difficulty should be at once
disposed of, by enacting that places in which a dangerous
trade was carried on should have all the various flues
combined into one, and go into a chimney which
should carry them up to a height of at least sixty or seventy
feet above the ground. This sewed to him, when it was
mentioned to him, as a very large demand to make upon
those trades ; bit he was quite astounded to find, from the
information of gentlemen of the greatest practical experience,
that a chimney of that kind would not cost more than £7O.
(Hear, hear.) Another part which had had anxious consi-
deration on the part of the committee was this, that in order
to make some compensation for the necessary expense whicl?
shouldunho pub-
lished er the
would be thrown upon the new warehouses, there shortia 1„,,;
registere lsilt
a register provided, in which evehriyowi
a rh
act should be registered, and iv
under the direction of the council , and any existing
" liciUse if
ware , the owners thought proper to submit to the
regulations applying to new warehouses,. _ should. have afforded
great difficulty indeed
to them the. bounty of, bring admitted into that register.
There was another itubj,eat, and sae of

Mr. THourrarm. understood that the bill to be applied
for was for the regulation of warehouses and that of the
Highway Board for providing a supply of water, for which
they were to lay a rate. He should object to its being called
a fire-police rate, because that rate was quite sufficient for
the purposes to which it was devoted; it was one halfpenny
in the pound, and they had now a balance of £2,500 in hand
beyond their expenses.
The TowN-CLERK, in reply, said, the calculation was that
the money to be required by the Paving Board for supplying
water to the Fire Police Committee would not exceed the pre-
sent amount which the fire police no* sustained, or if it did
it would be only to a very trifling extent. There was one
point which be had not yet mentioned, and it was this,—ii
was proposed by the committee, (at least it was under con.
sideration,) that there should be a clause in the bill author.
izing the chief magistrate of the tows to direct the demolition
of any building which it might be expedient to remove, with
a view of putting a stop to fire. In cases of that kind it had
been conceived reasonable and proper that the public should
bear the expense of such proceeding, and upon that account
it might be necessary, under the direction of the committee,
to propse that a small addition of one halfpenny should be
made to the rate.
Mr. THORNHILL asked who was to collect that rate?
The TOWN-CLERK.—The Fire Police Committee.
Mr. THORNHILL.—I should object to that,
The TOWN-CLERK said, that the rate for the better water-
ing of the town would be a rate which must rest entirely with
the Paving and Sewerage Commissioners ; but whether the
committee might finally determine to recommend any addi-
tion to the rate would depend upon further consideration, and
of course any recommendation would be subject to the con-
firmation of the Council.
Mr. THOMPSON.—What is the objection to going for a
joint bill ?
The TOWN-CLERK, in reply, said the proposition in the
outset was to go for a joint bill, but they had been recom-
mended by the parliamentary agents, upon excellent grounds,
to prefer the course of going for two bills, because what was
called " multifariousness" in proceedings at law, was by no
means approved of by the taste of the present day in parlia-
went. if his course as Town-Clerk were to come over again,
be thought there was ne part of it he would avoid so much
as the mixing up of different subject's in one bill. In the
case of providing water that belonged to the raving board,
because they had the control of the pavement—they were
the proprietors of the pavement—they were the parties to
break it up, and they could, with their awn consent, lay the
requisite mains for the purpose of supplying water ; and so
long as they were not united with the council, it was far
better it should be so. He mast say, too, that he had gene.
rally found' that mixing up different subjects in one
bill, had caused eventually greater expense than if several
bills had bees introduced for the purpose.
Mr. JOHN 1110LMES.—We gave a joint notice with the
council of oar intention to apply to parliament.
Sir THOMAS BRANCKER here moved that the report of
the Fire Committee be adopted.
The TOWN-CLERIC said the Deputy Town-Clerk bad re-
minded him that there was so saving is fees in parliament
on a joint bill, for when it was found out that two parties
had joined in a bill, both were made to pay the fees. In that
case there were two fees paid.
Mr. Alderman EARLE.—They rob them both then.
The Towsr-CLERK.—They rob them both; and for the
information of the Alderman Who spoke last, I may mention,
that when they find they have a corporation to rob, they
make that corporation pay double fees.
Mr. Alderman Nicot seconded the motion proposed by
Sir Thomas Brancker.
Mr. EVANS said it had been asserted that the bill was for
the benefit of the town, but he would say that the expense in
favour of a particular description of property ought to fall
upon that property ; but it had been hustled off that pro-
perty on to all other property. It was intended to have the
law made prospective as regarded all new warehouses. He
would appeal to Mr. Holum if there were not as many ware-
houses now building as would answer all the purposes of the
town for two years to come ? At all events then they had two
years before them, for they could not interfere with the ware-
houses already is course of erection. It was useless to talk
of Iron doors and windows to the existing warehouses, unless
they could change the stairs. There was the cause of all the
evil. All kinds of windows, it was well keown, were more
likely to be left open than shut. He loOked upon this as an
attempt to bolster up the old warehouse system in Liverpool.
It appeared they wete going to lay a penny in the pound on
the vvilole property of the town, and all the benefit that the
inhabitants at large would have in return, would be an in-
creased facility in watering the streets. There was not the
slightest necessity for baste in the business. He repeated
that anything they could do for the old warehouses would be
useless, unless they could so alter the stairs as to give easy
access to the uppermost stories. Again, in their interference
with the porters, they were proposing unjustifiable measures
for bolstering up a bad system. To say, if a wan were guilty
of carelessness that he should be liable to a punishment little
short of felony, was most extraordinary. He could not be-
lieve that a monopoly of labour would be continued, even if
enacted.
Mr. SAMUEL HOLME, who spoke under the oppression of
a severe cold and hoarseness, thought it would be admitted
that the calamitous fires that had occurred in this town du-
ring the last few years, and which had involved the destruc-
tion of property to the extent of nearly one million and a
half within the last ten years, thus causing an annusl loss
of something like £150,000 upon the average, was a state of
things which loudly called for a remedy. When he added to
that the destruction of the furniture of the poor, and the
alarm incidental to a great conflagration in a large town;
when he called to mind the appalling spectacles which he
had himself frequently witnessed with the deepest pain, of
the mutilated fragments of some of his fellow creatures car-
ried out from under the burning ruins; those who considered
these matters would cordially agree with him that it was a
neHteaeetdebeoedfg
gt he
di
not n
tgtoso
hwashsvi
yec
,h
takenfrse
rqtuh i
per
rlea,dc
tiemh
isfmt
te immediate
eaarne
hd
calamitousoiunss
etapnrto rperemer
steyudl
oyt
sf.
Liverpool had not been constructed upon false and imptoper
principles. He could bear testimony to the efficiency of the
fire-police, as for some years there had scarcely been a single
fire at which he had not beesnk
in saying that in all England thenrte
Ph
oe
lt
itceer
of regulated,
Liverpool;or wasHe hadnot no
afire-police hesitation
directed, than the fire-
police
water could !;),e
could Mr. Whiny a bdmu whater
Hewitti
was generally half burnt before a drop couldlf u
anylldo
fire police do; what
when, the warehouse
tained ? In the case of Sir John Toti
ton-street, a fire which only occurred 'lf
varebl)4'it°n
to the great fire, a single bucket of Wet 9w weeks previously
Holrne) arrived on the'spolt'wbuld'har soon after he (Mr.
a single buel'et "of water could not b put the fire out, but
himself Mr. Whitty running about obtained. He saw
for water in all directions ; and it was note e lunatic, begging
that warehouse, containing most valuable till two stories of
consumed, that any water could be obtained, an had been
they were obliged to obtain it from the dock, artrl even then
and immediate supply of water would at all ti That a ready
m. es almost ex-
proof, great fires, there was on that occasion practical
proof, for as soon as they got a sufficient pPly although
three stories were then in a state of dreadful conflagration,

. .
,
~,
• Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE.-4 never said the council shotild —Namely', whether the powers to rtfinlate porter§ in ware- they strateded in preventing the fire from, ix tending to the
refuse; I only asked for mote information. houses could not be materially hop-coed ; whether it was remaining three stories, both as to the building and the pro-
Mr. EIRKETT, in continuation, said, if the council now possible to have gangs of men under the direction of ware- duce they contained were saved. He mentioned this fact to
refused to authorise the committee to apply for this bill, the house owners, and to elevate some of those porters into the show that a supply of water ought to he avaikable, immedi-
present session would be lost. The committee asked only rank of foremen, who should be ma de the parties to corn- ately, and in all directions, whenever a fire took place, for, he
for leave to go to the first reading, and then the bill would be mood those gangs. It would also be for consideration, repeated, that a single bucket of water, when4rst the fire
submitted to the council; no person would be now pledged to whether, considering the great extent of loss of life, as well !
broke out, was of more importance than almost any quantity
the details, for the whole measure would afterwards be tinhj,ct as of property, in this town, it would riot be deemed by the 1 of it afterwards. It was not his intention to have gone into
to consideration. But, as be said before, if they refused their legislature essential to enact, that any wilful act or negligent 1 details.as to the defects in the warehouse system, as the com,
consent now, there would be no time, because if they were omission upon the part of porters and others employed ' not in parliament by next Friday week with the bill, along warehouse
with the petition, they could not go for it this session. He, ought ruin fie
therefore, for one, would not take the responsibility of saying ti' roved, 1
(
that to the town ; but he would take any means to preventiyment
l
that which, it had been proved by evidence before the coin-. ._ regularl
le and ifn-
mittee, had caused a loss to the town of no less than one Prisonmeo,, -- considera-
• -- •
...._
million and a half of money in the last ten years. (Hear.)
and he would one
Mr. Alderman EARLE thought he had heard the chairman - ---.100, and not
of the Finance Committee (Mr. G. H. Lawrence) say lie
would not give any authority whatever to the committee, not
even to give the parliamentary notice ; whilst it had repeatedly
been stated that if they did not do it now, the bill would be
lost entirely for the present session. He thought gentlemen
would be incurring great responsibility by so refusing,. seeing
the calamitous fires we had lately had ; and as measures had
been brought forward for the prevention of similar fires, and
for the extinguishing them if they occurred, the council
ought certainly to be in a condition to have the bill brought
in, at any rate to see what it was. He presumed there would
be no great expense in that?
The TOWN-CLERK.—There are no fees payable upon the

mutt:ly aisKing the council to give them power to
go to parliament, to prevent them from being thrown over
the session ; he would, however, with the permission of the
council, as far as his strength would allow him, state a few
of the defects which, us he conceived, attached themselves to
the warehouses of Liverpool. The first was the narrow
streets in which many of the warehouses were erected. When
a warehouse took fire in a narrow street, and there was a

••
.wino mowing towards the opposite building, having nothing
but wooden doors, wooden shutters and pent house, the fire
was almost immediately communicated, from the great heat
thrown from the other side of the street. The best plan was
to give a practical proof of his meaning. When the fire took
place in Lancelot's-hey lie was down there; the fire shot
across the street in one sheet of flame, and long before the
warehouses on the west side were consumed, the warehouses
on the east side were in a state of conflagration.
Mr. Alderman EvANs.---It was so with the Goree, which
is a wide street.

Mr. HOLME.—The next defect was the non-separation of
the roofs of warehouses. Warehouses built in stacks, with
nothing to separate them but a lead gutter, between the spar
of one warehouse and the spar of the other. No sooner did
the lead melt than the spars, being at a declination from the
roof, ignited, and the .warehouse immediately took fire. The
warehouse got into a state of flame at a part which the police
could not reach, and so it ran from roof toroof, and that was
the reason why we had seen such great destruction. If the
warehouses had been properly constructed, the fames would
have been confined to the place where they had originated.
The next defect was the proximity of the bearing timbers in
these warehouses. It had not been unusual for stacks of
warehouses to be erected from one end of a street to another,
in many cases with party walls, and being connected one with
another, here was another means of communicating fire.
The next defect in warehouses was having them constructed
with wooden pent-houses projecting from the roof, cat-heads,
with wood doors and windows; the consequence was, that
all these being constructed of Baltic timber, which was full
of turpentine, the pent-houses were commonly the first thing
to take fire. tie need not tell the Council that the pent-
houses of warehouses were just in that position which the
fire-police were unable to reach by the force of their engines.
It was Quire an error to suppose that one of otr common en-
gines could reach the pent-house of a tall warehouse& The
next defect was wooden staircases ; and a great defect it was,
because in consequence of their being merely separated from
the warehouse-rooms by a thin wooden partition, and the
stairs being spiral, the flames ran up them ; and when a ware-
house took fire the staircase was almost the first thing com-
pletely consumed. It was likewise a means of communicat-
ing the flames from room to room ; and therefore he was
under the necessity of saying that wooden staircases were
a great defect in our warehouses, and one which he hoped to
see soon remedied. Besides, when a staircase was on fire it was
utterly impossible for the fire-police to get into anyroom which
might be in a state of conflagration. The next great defect was
the proximity of many warehouses to dangerous trades. It
was not at all an unusual thing in Liverpool to see a stack of
warehouses filled with cotton, every window open, and within
a few yards of it half a dozen, or a dozen common low smithy
chimnies vomiting out smoke mixed with sparks. Under
such circumstances, it was only to be wondered at that our
fires had not been more numerous than they had been. There
were great numbers of other trades which were exceedingly
dangerous, whose proximity to warehouses was to be carefully
guarded against. Having spoken of the defects in our ware-
houses, let him now be permitted to speak of that which he
would venture respectfully to submit to the council, as a
practical man, who had paid great attention to the subject,
who had assisted with his own hands to erect many ware-
houses in Liverpool, and who, since he had become a master
tradesman, had bad some practical experience in the building
of warehouses. With great respect, therefore, he begged to
recommend, as the council probably could not obtain an act
of parliament to operate retrospectively, that in all future
streets laid out for warehouse purposes, or in any case where
mercantile men, either individually or in bodies, might choose
to build warehouses in squares, there should be an increased
width of street or of court. If you had sixteen yards width, it
was probable that the warehouses being on fire upon one side
would not communicate to the warehouses upon the other;
and, as an example, in the great fire in Crompton-street, the
warehouses upon the side of Neptune-street—a street of six-
teen yards wide—were unscathed. He, therefore, considered
an increased width of street a subject of vital importance.
He would, likewise, beg to point out the necessity for a bet-
ter separation of roofs and bearing timbers, and as a sketch
would give more information than he could orally he had
drawn one—which he submitted to them—from which they
would see that every warehouse would be rendered a perfect
funnel, completely fire-proof, to conduct the flames, so that
they could no more communicate to the adjoining building,
than if they were sent up the middle of the chimney. Then he
would suggest that the doors, shutters,pent-houses,cat-heads,
should be of iron, and especially the staircase, which, instead
of being of wood, should be framed either of stone or of iron ;
and that the staircases should be enclosed with brick walls up
to the top of the building, by which the fire-police might, at
any moment, have free access to the top of the warehouse,
the roof of the adjoining warehouse, and water be taken to
where water was wanted. The next was smithies and fur-
naces in the vicinity of warehouses. Unquestionably, as a
measure of public security, they ought to be obliged to turn
their small flues into one general chimney. The great danger
from sparks—for it was a spark from a bone-boiler's which
first set fire to the warehouses in Galton-street—would then
be avoided, and no calamitous result would ensue. Ware-
houses, he granted, might be built fire-proof at a compara-
tively small expence above the common mode of building :
he was not, however, prepared to say how much additional,
because, at present, it was in some degree speculative, and
iron-founders were not prepared to give estimates with that
accuracy which would soon be arrived at;. bat he had no
hesitation in saying this, that warehouses might be built en-
tirely fire-proof for somewhere between 13 and 17 per cent.
additional. And this he did contend, that if warehouses were
not erected entirely fire-proof, if you had the party walls
made strong enough, the whole of the timbers completely
divided, the roofs divided at the top by t arapet walls,
if you had iron doors and iron shutters, and stone
or iron staircases, yon would convert every 'warehouse
into a perfect fire-proof funnel ; and he would stake
his existence that a warehouse constructed upon this
principle would never communicate fire to any adjoining
buildings ; but that the fire might in all cases be kept in the
building in which it originated. He knew it was said, and
it might be argued, that this act would be an interference
with the rights of private property ; but he begged to ask,
whether the Building Act, which
was not obtained without
opposition, was not in some degree an act of interference
with private property? Parliament gave the council power
to compel individuals about to erect houses in Liverpool, to
have stronger walls and stronger timbers than had been
hitherto usual. Was not that, in some degree, an act of in-
terference with the rights of private property ? Again, the
Health of the Town Bill was an interference with the rights
of private property, for it compelled parties to have courts of
a certain width, and that all should be severed, which would
involve expense; therefore, when he eats told that this
.pro-
posed bill was in some degree an interference with the rights
of private property, he replied that it was not more an inter-
ference with the rights of property than the Building Act,
obtained some years ago, or the Health of the Town Bill,
now in operation. In all great measures for the public
benefit, there must, in some degree, be an interference with
the rights of property ; and he contended, that this proposed
bill should be looked upon as an extension of the Building
Act, and not as upon a new bill. Mr. Evans said. " let this
bill lie over for a few months ;" but could any man guarantee
that his own house would not be burnt downi this night;?
Could any one say that Launcelot's Hey might not be n
flames within a week from this time? And if they had
established, as this committee had established,and was firmly
of opinion that great danger resulted from the present system,
why defer even for a few weeks? Mr. Evans contended for
the necessity of dock warehouses • but when he was opposed,
did lee ever think of saying, " let the bill lie over tot a few
months, it is of no importance ?" (Laughter.) No; he
said it was of vital importance, and he would not wait Per a
moment; and he (Mr. Holme) now threw upon the council
the responsibility of refusing to go to parliament for the
benefit of the poor who suffered from these fires, as well as
the rich merchants, for this bill which was imperatively
wanted. Mr. Evans said that buildings were now being
erected. So they were ;at this moment a number of ware-
houses were being erected; but he (Mr. Holme) begged to
observe, that many of them were in the place of those which
had been burnt down, and, with one slight exception, they
were all being reconstructed as they were before ; and he was
very much mistaken if, in reconstructing those warehouses in
a street only eight yards wide, they were not erecting mate-
rials for another serious bonfire at no distant period. Mr.
Evans stated that iron shutters were of no use unless they
were closed ; but the shutters of warehouses were those
which of all things the Fire Committee would say that there
should be a clause compelling
them to be closed, in the same
way as Mr. Evans would make a law to compel shipkeepers
to walk the deck all night. He granted that iron shutters were
of no use unless they were closed. [Mr. Alderman EVANS.--
" Corn] Well, there might be an exception in the case of
corn. He was reminded, that warehouse occupiers were
compelled to heave the heisting
ropes up; and the same thing
might be enacted with regard to the windows. Mr. *vans
had talked a good deal about bolstering up eld warehouses: he
seemed, indeed, to
.have a great horror of old warehouses ;
but he knew not with what grace Mr- Fvans could say
that this was a bill to bolster 41A old warehouses, when they
were absolutely trying to make those old warehouses compa-
ratively fire-proof, Mr. Evans must remember that they
were not layingthe foundations of a new town, but that they
were dealing with Liverpool as it was, and as it had grown
during the last century and half. If they had to begin de
novo, it would be easy to say they would not have warehouses
in the streets at all; but they had to deal with two or three
millions' worth of property in existence—much of which be-
longed to trustees, which, of course, it was difficult to deal
with—upon which he knew a great many children depended
for their bread ; and, therefore, they must deal with things
as they found them, and not argue' as if they were going to
build a new town. He (Mr. Holme) thought the council
would give him, credit for disinterestedness, for as a ware-
house owner this proposed bill would involve him in consi-
derable expense; and with reference to his own trade hp was
at once agreeing to cut off a considerable portion of that by
which he earned his bread. He, therefore, stood up as a dis-
interested man to recommend thismeasure. He was not an
individual for great hastP,
but he said, if the council did not
give the eargizattee permission to go to parliament for a mea-
sure tp preyent life and property from being lost, after the
labour, attention, and time which the committee had be-
stowed upon the subject, he thought it would be hardly
treating them fairly ;—at all events he trusted
that the bill
might go to the first reading and be printed in order to be
put into the hands of every member of the council. He
would then be glad to hear their remarks, and any remarks,
from the town, and he should be prepared to defend those
clauses which he had had the honour of suggesting. Mr.
to the motion
Holme concluded by an earnest call upon the council to agree

had expressmeidttnete.theltbewgoinunminbge.
Mr. Holme, and
raarn had produced, he
ante with
iGth.
tHhe.
sraeAnWtimßeEnNtCsEhseaid he should give a vote at vari•
theA After e rthe
importantable details speech
whichhe
that
ltntiereaterotidetipinfeincrn]
ven the council so bald and
(Mr. Lawrence) could not incur the responsibility of delaying
atet
othgirsealtnao mreesnptotillisei b
iolbi
tjyecftoohf
; but he did com-
plain of the committee having g!
poor a report. When the bill should come before, them in a
printed shape, he should be ready to -- give it every cou.sidera-
tion in his power, but at the same time. wa
h- ‘:
•Y ought the diffi-
culties in it were very great.
The motion was then pt ly the MAYoa and carried
without a division.