The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-05-07 00:00:00

WYE LIVERPOOL STANDARD..

The MAYOR :-13ut you cdanot : it cannot be a ground
of disqualification, and th-.r,fore- it is not competent for
any rnem`)er of the council to urge it as one.
Mr. PARKER wislied to know from the Town-clerk
wh-ther the Orange Society was a legal society, or whe-
ther it was tint.

Mr. TnomesoN thought it better to postpone the latter
question for the present.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE said that no one would think of
dismissing the magistrates because they belonged to the
Reform or Can't m Club,, and that he certainly should
not be the person to vote for Mr. Harbord's removal
because he belonged to the Orange Society.
Mr. THomPSON expressed his regret that neither Mr.
Gladstone nor any of the other magistrates in council had
answered Mr. Harbord's question. He expected that the
magistrates, feeling the position in which they had placed
the Watch Committee, would have given every informa-
tion in their power. That committee felt that they were
placed in a very strange position by the proceedings of the
magistrates, which had taken place behind their backs;
and the only information they could get, as to why the
proceedings were not communicated, was that the chair-
man of the committee (Mr. Alderman Lawrence) was out
of town—a reason which conveyed an imputation of a
grave nature on the deputy-chairman, Mr. Aspinall. He
could assure the magistrates that there was not, and never
had been, any wish on the p trt of the Watch Committee
to act otherwise than cordially with them. The proceed-
ings of the magistrates, however, had assumed such an
appearance as made one suppose that they were not desi-
rous of acting with the committee. This girt of aliena-
tion amongst the two bodies might be prejudicial to the
peace of the town. Quarrels had already been springing
up between the members of the force in consequence of
the recent conduct of the magistrates; and instances
could be cited to show the unsatisfactory state of things,
caused by the interference of that body. It was on these
grounds that he hoped the magistrates in council, or some
one or their behalf, would offer stone explanation for their
proceedings, the causes which had led to those proceedings,
and also the reasons why they had not been cotnmuoi-
cated to the Watch Committee. (Hear.) Before he sat
down, he wished to give the magistrates the following
piece of information :—The committee had wriven to the
District Master of the Orange Lo lges, for information
with regard to a procession in the town last month, which
he believed was the foundation of the proceedings of the
magistrates ; and the answer was to the effect, that the
procession on Easter Monday was not a procession of the
Orange Society,—that such processions were diametri-
cally opposed to the rules of that society,—that there was
only one Orangeman in that procession, and that he had
since been suspended for having taken part therin. (Hear,
hear.)
The MAYOR said, that however much he might regret
that any act of his, or any proceedings of the magistrates'
should have failed to receive the approbation of the Watch
Committee, or any portion of the Council, it was never-
theless very satisfactory to him to know, that whatever
had taken place was under the advice of the Town-Clerk.
It was also satisfactory to him to believe that the magis-
trates were only prompted by a sincere desire to preserve
the peace of the town : and he had further satisfaction of
believing, and indeed of knowing, that what they had
done had met with the approbation of the Home Secre-
tary, who had been informed of every thing as it occurred,
and from whom a note had been received expressive of his
approval. With respect to a want of courtesy on the part
of the magistrates, he was sure that if the Watch Com-
mittee knew what transpired, they would not entertain
any such feeling for a single moment. He might be al-
lowed to state how it originated.
Mr, H. LAWRENCE thought that if it was to be dis-
cussed hereafter, it was better not to discuss it now.

Mr. H A RBORD said it was absolutely necessary the sub-
ject should be gone into, for at the very time the Mayor's
communication was received by the Watch Board that
Orangemen were not to be appointed, the Mayor recom-
mended one himself. (A laugh.)
The MAYOR.—Not knowing it, of course; I wasn't
aware of it, I assure you. The whole of their proceed-
ings had their origin in the procession to which Mr.
Thompson has alluded. He had been waited on by Mr.
Rushton, who made certain representations. The Town-
clerk was sent for ; and they advised together. Ile (the
Mayor) suggested the propriety of communicating with
the Watch Committee at the first meeting. (Hear, hear.)
The object, however, they had in view was simply that
the thing might be kept perfectly quiet—that no one
should know it, not even the bench of Magistrates.
However, the instructions given to Mr. Miller and Mr.
Whitty came before the Watch Committee • the thing
got out; and then the Magistrates were called together,
and the resolutions, already read, passed.
Mr. ASPINALL said, that the Town-Clerk, when asked
why he did not recommend the Mayor to send for the
Watch Committee, said that he had not been sent for
until everything was arranged by the Mayor and Mr.
Rushton.
The TOWN•CLERK assured Mr. Aspinall that his an-
swer had been wholly misunderstood, for that he had
never made any such statement.
The MAYOR thought the Town-Clerk must have been
misunderstood, for he had rung the bell for him the mo-
ment Mr. Rushton mentioned the nature of the business
upon which he had come to the Town-hall.
Mr. ASPINALL said there was no mistake; for that he
had put the question to the Town-clerk twice on Satur-
day last, and that the answer was, that everything had
been arranged by the Mayor and 11,1 r. Rushton before the
Mayor sent for his legal adviser. (Hear, hear.)
The TOWN-CLERK again assured the council that he
had been, in a most extraordinary manner, misunder-
stood. He had no hesitation at all in avowing that he
had been called into the Mayor's room at an early stage ;
that he found Mr. Rushton with the Mayor ; and that the
representation respecting the Orangemen had been pre-
viously made. Before he had taken any active part
in the matter, he thought it necessary to consult
with Mr. Shuttleworth, who concurred with him, that
Orangemen, as well as Ribbonmen, were unfit persons to
be members of the police force ; and when he joined Mr.
Rushton and the Mayor, he found them in possession of
information that there was ground for believing that there
were sixty Orangemen in the police force. His inference
was, for he knew it not of his own knowledge, that Mr.
Rushton had made that representation to the Mayor. He
then referred at length to the part he had taken in the
matter, and said his wish was, that until the proceedings
had arrived at a proper stage, there should be no repre-
sentations made to the Watch Committee, as the object
was to effect the business as quietly as possible; but that,
at a proper period, they should be informed that the fact
of a man being an Orangeman or a Ribbonnirtaurewssrlfpwe
per ground for his dismissal. He
opinion that an Orangeman, I:lauscewd•elhlimas toa
Ribbonmen, was quite unfit for
bcoeudnecciildec!
decidedly of
to state the reasons which
fwscel p
induced
Mr. ASPiNALL.—
lou had better postpone that point
for the present.
Mr. HARBORD.—The Town-Clerk came to that conclu-
sion before he ever saw the rules of the Orange Society.
(Hear, hear.)
The TOWN-CLERK.—I came to it from the general re-
presentations made of the society, and also from a full
knowledge of what took place regarding Orange Societies
in parliament in 1835.

Mr. TURNER.—Did the Town-Clerk advise the Mayor
and Mr. Rushton to issue the order regarding Orangemen
in the force, and to act upon that order before ever it
went to the Watch Committee?

The TOWN-CLERK, without immediately replying to
the question, went on to say that, according to the mu-
nicipal corporations act, the Watch Committee bad the
appointment of the constables, and the power to frame
regulations as they should deem expedient for the preven-
tion of neglect, and that the constables were required to
obey the lawful commands of the justices. In cases of
disturbance the constables were under the complete order
and controul of the magistrates, witbout any right on the
pa-t of the Watch Committee to interfere.
Mr. TURNER.—You say the police are bound to obey
the orders of the magistracy : are they not equally bound
to obey the orders of the Watch Committee ?
The TOWN-CLERK.—Not in cases of disturbance. He
thought that, as magistrates were often placed in situations
of great peril, they required to have a force under them
upon which they could rely ; and, believing it to be per-
fectly clear that the justices had the power to take into
consideration what constables should be dismissed, he
considered, in a case in which there was reason to believe
there were sixty Orangemen in the force, that the charac-
ter of the Mayor required him to take up the subject with
the stipendiary magistrate, and not hand over that juris-
diction to any other tribunal. He firmly believed that
the power of dismissal was as complete in one jurisdiction
as in the other,—that the one beginning first could pursue
the thing to a conclusion, and that, considering the posi-
t tion in which magistrates were often placed, they, of all
others, had a right to see that the force was such as they
could rely upon. It must be obvious to every man that
if one of those riots, which disgraced the town on former
occasions,jcttt
Reohoci
onhpt
sci
bueol
our ncsnd r
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o
yor
tsteidedtahiee Council.Ma n He
a
circumstances,
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reti.
against
certainly wlweuh odesaurtodteil dcorceaaatbdnLhl woe
gee,
advised
mst ooe una t e
uog
afn ob-
jection bes
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ac-
countplacedmoTwf
ut
Rh henNe
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at Isl
said
idt
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oh ipntehr ws
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umagistratescasespower
ioowwt eearrhe
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df tt
iehs ae.
i.
the powers
to dismiss, but that the
resolutiona fof the
powers of the Watch Committeen. milt% esrpehnkcee
wtmuiartgbhiasntt
Mayor and Mr. Rushton was considered
warmly of the zeal and attention manifested by the
com-
mittee in making their appointments to the force, and
said it was of the utmost consequence that good will should
exist between two such bodies as the magistracy and the
Watch Committee, so intimately interested as both were
any
that
a
in the main'enance of an active and efficient police.
The TowN-CLERK said that if he thought the resolu-
tions an interference with the rights and privileges of the
Watch Committee, he never could have advised such a
mode of proceeding ; but he retained the opinion up to
the present moment, that there had not beenncdued drum
y and ht
aa
inter-
ference whatever.
Mr- BLAciatußN:defended the magistrates, and thought
they were perfectly warranted in coming to the resolu-
tion in question.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE was of opinion that the present
discussionpitiful
processionw ould no
oft b e
thirtyproductive
boys,
w
ofwith a
good,er
cracked
and a yellow colour, was not sufficient to throw the town
into a ferment.
Mr. BIREETT characterised the proceedings of the ma.
gistrates as a " tempest in a teapot."
Mr. HABBonn said he hid received the first intimation
of the magisterial proceedings from a poor Orangeman
who was going to be quietly dismissed, and who came
quietly to his house at ten o'clock at night, to tell him
that he and others were to he quietly dismissed, and
then be (Mr. H.) quietly mentioned the fact to the Watch
Committee, and they quietly took it up, and now it was
being quietly brought before the Council. (Hear, bear,
and great laughter.)
Mr. PARKER said that Mr. Thornhill could tell the

Council that questions of religion and:politics were never
asked the candidates for situations in the force by any of
the members of the Watch Committee. If they were to
have tests of the kind, let the Test Acts be revived. The
committee never thought of putting such queries. If
they got men with characters for sobriety and honesty,
that was all they looked for and all that they considered
necessary. At the same time he did not agree with those
members of the Council who had been casting blame on
the magieracy. He thou•;ht the magistracy deserved the
complimentary letter they had received from Sir James
Graham ; for what might not have bee❑ the result, if they
had overlooked the circumstance, or if they had not made
the wonderful discovery, that there was the large number
of seven poor Orangemen in the police force! t" Hear,"
and a laugh.) He had been informed that morning that
there was some treasonable correspondence found out by
the stipendiary magistrate (renewed laughter) ; and, un-
der these circumstances, the bench ought to be lauded,
instead of censured, for their great exertions in making
the discovery. Considerable stress had been laid on the
word " Orangemen" by Mr. Blackburn, and only once in
the course of his speech had that gentl •man mentioned
the word " Ribbonmen". Now, he (Mr. P.) thought
the question put to the Town-Clerk a very proper one—
namely, whether the Orange Society was a legal or an
illegal society ; and he certainly expected a decisive an-
swer ; but the Town-Clerk said. " No, I am not in a po-
sition to answer such a question." (Hear, hear.) Then
the Town-Clerk went into a long explanation, and mysti-
fied the matter with some deep law (a laugh); but no
straightforward answer had been given to the important
question touching the legality or illegality of the society.
When political feeling ran so high, and when Orangemen
were considered as firebrands in the town, he certainly
thought it necessary to make a passing allusion to another
view of the subject. He contended that there were a
great many Repeaters in the force, and men who contri-
buted to the O'Connell and Repeal funds ; nay, they had
magistrates who presided at certain meetings, and who
were themselves Repeaters.
Mr. EVANS.—Woo are they?

Mr. PARKER.—Look at their actions.
Mr. THORNHILL was of opinion that if those discus-
sions and interferences were to go on, the force, in a short
time, would not be worth a single halfpenny.
Mr. LACE said, the real question was, whether it was
proper to have any man on the force who was a member
of any society except a mere benefit club. He was of
opinion it was the very worst thing; for they would find
that, in all cases, the police force would be sure to serve
any other member of a secret society. He quite agreed
with the opinion of the magistrates, and he would say that
neither freemasons, oddfellows, or any other secret society
should they belong to. He would have no connexion with
any secret society. It was entirely incompatible with the
proper discharge of their duty. He thought the Mayor,
under the advice of the Town-clerk—for he must bear all
the Mayor's sins in this respect—had gone too far in coming
to the resolution. The Town-clerk had made some good
observations, and if the matter had involved a riot next
day, it would have perhaps been the right course ; but
when three or four days did not signify, he thought all
the magistrates should have been called, and then a com-
munication sent to the Watch Committee. The magis-
trates had clearly the power—there was no doubt of that.
Mr. HORNBY denied that there were any Repealers on
the magisterial bench.
After some further discussion,
Mr. ASPINALL replied, and gave notice that he should
move at the next meeting, that Mr. J. B. Lloyd be a
member of the Watch Committee, in place of Mr. Bout-
flower, deceased. He said, that if the courtesy due to
the Watch Committee had been shown to them, it would
have been found that an inquiry had been instituted, and
that the number of Orangemen, Ribbonmen, and Repeal-
ers in the force was so trifling as not to be worth the
trouble of noticing. He was glad to hear from Mr. Tar •
ner that the stipendiary magistrate, and other individual
magistrates, had denied that any discounters was meant;
but the proper course for them to pursue would have been
to send a letter, to the deputy chairman of the Watch
Committee, on the subject. as they had sent other letters.
This would have done away with a great deal of ill feel-
ing, and placed one party as well as the other in a proper
position.
The proceedings of the committee were then confirmed.