The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-06-07 00:00:00

labour of their negroes would, have lost everything. Under
these circumstances, with a view to compensate the losses in
question, £2,000,000 in addition to the £18,000,000, would
scarcely be considered too much. This was the calculation on

which the claim for a grant of £20,000,000 proceeded,—he
thought it was only a fair sum, and such as would ensure the
co-operation of the colonists in the proposed emancipa-
tion,—a most important matter, for without their cordial
co-operation the measure could not be satisfactorily effected.
With respect to the loan, it should be recollected that a great
proportion of the planters were embarrassed by mortgages and
other encumbrances on their property, which the proposed loan
would enable them to lighten. It was necessary to consult the
interests of the poor as well as the more wealthy colonist. He
was of opinion that the security for the loan would be found
sufficient, if the experiment now about to be made did not to-
tally fail; and if it did, surely an additional sum of £10,000,000
would not be thought too much in the way of compensation to
those who were deprived of everything by the act of the legisla-
ture. (Bear.) It was not his intention to put the house to
the trouble of a division on any proposition connected with this
subject. The friends of the West India interest were merely

a fraction of that house ; if they could make an impression on
the fairness and justice of ministers, well and good ; but he was
aware that unless the house co-operated with them, 40 or 50
members could do nothing:, especially when they had to fight
not only against great majorities within doors, but against the
humane feeling and respect for religion which he freely admitted
had excited throughout the country the geniral cry for an ex-
tinction of slavery. (Hear.) The friends of the West India
interest were not there to fight a party battle,—they would do
the best they could; but if they failed' in obtaining what they
conceived to be due to the colonies, the house and the govern-
ment must take the responsibility' upon thetnselves,'he (Lord
Sandon) and his friends would have discharged their duty to
their constituents, to the colonies, to the country, and to their
own consciences. • _ _ _

Mr. FITZGERALD observed that the question at the outset was
whether there could or could not be property in slaves. If there
was no such thing as property in man, there could be no doubt
that the house was bound at once to go the length of the right
hon. secretary's resolutions. The hon. member proceeded to
argue that it was clear from the statute law, from the time of
Elizabeth downwards, that the slave-trade and the right of pro-
perty in slaves were recognized by various acts of Parliament.
Such being the case, it was impossible, with any pretence of
justice, to take away a species of property recognized by the le-
gislature, unless we consented to compensate the owners.
Lord SANDON said that he had forgot at the conclusion of
his speech to read the resolutions which he intended to propose
as an amendment for the adoption of the committee, and he
would now take the opportunity of doing so. The noble lord
here read his resolutions, which were to the effect that it was
the opinion of the committee that immediate and effectual mea-
sures should be taken for the entire abolition of slavery in our
colonies, which should, while they promoted the welfare of the
negroes, not injure the interests of the planters; that a sum of
£20,000,000 sterling be granted as compensation to the pro-
prietors of slaves ; that further, for the purpose of accomplish-
ing more speedily the objects in view, a sum of £10,000,000
sterling be paid to the colonial legislatures, in order to secure
their co-operatiou.
The CHAIRMAN intimated to the noble lord, that as there was
another amendment already before the committee, the noble
lord could not move his amendment until it was first disposed of.
Lord SANDON said that after that amendment was disposed
of, he should move his resolutions, for the purpose of having
them inserted on the journals. _ _ _

Mr. W. E. CLADSTO;E said he had to complain of the reference
which the noble lord opposite had made to an estate of his
(Mr. Gladstone's) father in Demerara, in proof of a position
laid' down by that noble lord, that the increase in sugar cultiva-
tion was in direct ratio with overworking and loss of life on the
part of the slave population. He thought he had a right to
complain of the noble lord's bringing forward a charge of that
description without any previous communication with two
members of the family to which it referred, who had seats in
that house. It was a charge affecting moral character, for
what man's character would not be affected if he should see,
from the reports from his estate, that while the sugar cultiva-
tion was increasing his slaves were dying off in equal propor-
tion ; and if, under such circumstances, he should continue the
same system of management? But he denied that the noble
lord's statement, with regard to his father's estate, was correct.
The noble lord stated that the mortality on it amongst the
slaves had been 14 per cent. Now, he could mention an estate
where, with a decrease in the slave population, there' had been
a small, almost amounting to nothing, increase in the sugar
cultivation. The estate- to which he referred was that called
Montrepot. The estate which his (Mr. Gladstone's) father
had, • came into his possession about five years ago. There were
560 slaves on it then, 140 of whom were ailing and infirm per-
sons. Perhaps the noble lord would say tha that fact only
proved that their previous treatment had been harsh and severe,
and that his position, that the increase in the cultivation of
sugar was attended by the overworking and mortality of the
slave population, remained untouched. Now, what was the
fact ?—that in 1825 this estate produced only 1,2(01b. of sugar
for every person employed in it, which was, according to the
noble lord's oven admission, the lowest average for any estate.
In fact, on the purchase of the estate, from the necessary
decrease that was apprehended in the number of the slaves,
owing to the infirm state of some of them, 250 were immediately
.added to the gang. As to the punishment inflicted on this
estate, he would just mention that he had a letter in his pocket
from the estate, dated the 20th of April • and it appeased from
it that the number of punishments inflicted there from the Ist
of January up to that date amounted exactly to one. (Hear.)
The hon. member proceeded to controvert the argument of the
hon. member for Weymouth, that an increase in sugar culti-
vation was in a direct ratio with an increase in punishment and
a decrease in life of the slave population, and he read a variety
of tables to show that such was the fact. There might be
something, he said, in the manufacture of sugar deleterious, to
a certain extent, to human life; but it was not fair to adduce a
mortality thus produced as a proof of the cruel conduct of the
West India planter. If the manufacture of sugar was so dele-
terious, the only way to remedy that evil was to prohibit the
importation of sugar altogether. The manufacture of sugar
was by no means as destructive of life as various trades in this
country were,—for instance; grinders, white-lead manufacturers,
&c. That fact was demonstrated in Mr. Thackrah's work on
the subject. There was nothing better established than the fact
that manufacturing processes were more injurious to life than
agricultural pursuits. Now,- the cultivation of sugar was in part
a manufacturing process, and it was not fair, thetefcrre, to com-
pare it, as the hon. member for Wevmouth hal done, with the
cultivation of coffee and cotton, wfiich- were merely agricul-
tural. Following the rule already stated, the cultivation of
sugar was more destructive of human life. -He was ready
to admit that cases. of wanton cruelty. had occurred in the
West Indies, and they, would always occur as long as slavery
existed, and that was one great reason why the house should
set about in good earneststo put an end to that system.-s-
These were isolated cases, which were not the. general rule, but
exceptions from the rule. 1t could hardly be said of any of our
colonial possessions that the tone of morals was not much lower
than in this country. ,We had not discharged our obligation to
impart the Christian religion to the colonies. He admitted that
in the West Indies there had been an extreme backwardness in
)this respect, arising from a notion that the moment a slave be-
came a Christian he ceased to be a slave, which led to the na-
tural conclusion that they, ought not to make slaves Christians.
• But it seemed cruel to hold up the example of the West Indies as
an isolated case. If the plan of emancipation now proposed
proceeded upon any other principle than the industry of the
slave, it would fail. A great deal had been said respecting the
term "property." He viewed property as the creature of so-
ciety; and the question was, whether slaves were not property
within the limits of the constitution. We were not to go into
the wide sea of abstract speculation. The legislature had done
all in its power to snake them property (hear), it had legalized
them as property, and was bound by its own acts. This was the
ground upon which the grant was to be given to the West In-
dians, from whom this measure would take a certain portion of
labour; but, besides this, they incurred a risk, in the transition
to a new and untried plan, of losing the sugar cultivation alto-
gether. Supposing the plan did not work well, the country
would lose X 10,000,000, but the colonists £60,000,000 or
£70,000,000. Was that reasonable? (Hear.) He had no
doubt of the omnipotence of Parliament, and that it could crush
the local governments of the colonies;_ but with respect to the
working of the plan, if it were carried into'execution with sul-
lenness and indifference, it would be absolutely fatal to it as a
satisfactory measure. Looking to the commercial value of the
colonies to England, their power was great, and unless we had
the co-operation of the Colonists abroad, the plan of emancipa-
tion would be fruitless. (Hear.) He would put it to hon.
members whether interference with the• colonial legislature
would not be extremely awkward nnder•present circumstances?
The house had commenced an inquiry, the committee had de-
clared that inquiry unfinished, and the Governor of Jamaica
had pledged himself that till the inquiry was completed nothing
should be done. He trusted that whatever plan was adopted,
there would be as broad a distinction as possible between the in-
dustrious and the indolent slave. No mechanism could be too
rapid in favour of the .industrious slave ; but he almost feared
that the very prospect of emancipation, at.. any period, would
prove an obstacle to the valification of the indolent slaves for
that boon. In this case, if a system which. began in crime and
sin, and had been continued under the responsibility of Parlia-
ment, was brought to a satisfactory issue, it would be delightful
to all the various interests connected with it, and most of all to
the West India planters, who always felt that.to hold an interest
in the labour and persons of their fellow-men, thorigh it did not
involve a sin, involved a serious responsibility. If this great
measure was not conducted on a fair basis, or was conducted by
violence, he should.lament it, as it stfoulds be a Signal for the
ruin of the colonies, and the downfall of the empire.
Sir R. PEEL, in the whole course of his parliamentary ex-
perience, never apprOached the discussion of any question in
which the interests involved aeared of equal magnitude with
that now before the hOuse. (hear.) Ire never recollected one
in which the difficulties were so appalling ; he never•recollected
one in which a false step incurred the hazard
.of consequences
so lamentable and irreparable: Ile admitted the just claims
of the West Indians to compensation, on fair and equal terms,
for the loss of their property in consequence of the measure be-
fore the house ; but he did not rise to discuss this question on
West India interests or any interests. The least part of the
question was the compensation to the \Vest Indians. The
value of West India property had been estimated at £30,000,000,
and that was the extent of the claims of the West Indians.
The country could find adequate means to meet them. What-
ever might "be the amount, £15,0000,000, or £20,000,000, or
£30,000,000, that sum would not exceed the means of the
country of providing a pecuniary compensation. He as-
sumed that he was addrssing himself to a House of Commons
which was prepared to run the hazard of every sacrifice to en-
sure the emancipation of the negroes. He was confident that
in the decision to which the committee was now about to come,
honourable members would not look to the mere redemption of
any hasty or inconsiderate pledges which thy might have given
to their constituents upon the hustings. He was confident that
they would not look to the achievement of any triumph
over the West Indian assemblies. Their objectwoulcl not be to
punish the colonial legislatures, but to • lay the foundation of
future prosperity and tranquillity in those countries of which
they formed a constituent and important part. ThCir object
would not be to pass a hasty vote recognizing the expediency
and justice of negro emancipation, but to alter safely and pru-
dently the state of society in a hemisphere different from that in
which they themselves lived. He considered that the mere cir-
cumstance of the King's government having recommended
emancipation constituted a new era in the history of this ques-
tion. That recommendation essentially affected the interests
of all West India proprietors, and ought to make them sensible
of the danger likely to accrue from further delay, and, indeed,
from any- part taken by the house of CoMmons which looked
like shrinking from the difficulties by which they were sur-
rounded. Then, too, in the West Indies von had to deal with a
country in which the climate, the difficulty of labour, and
facility of obtaining subsistence were perpetually obstructing
all your efforts—you were seeking to substitute a stimulus for
force' labour in a country where all labour must be forced. In
other countries the stimulus to labour arose from the necessity
of procuring the articles necessary to subsistence. In the
West Indies, after you abolish the necessity of labour from
coercion, you cannot substitute the stimulus to labour from the
necessity of procuring subsistence. The labour of a few days
is'all that is necessary in those countries to procure not merely
.the articles of subsistence but also the articles of luxury. The evi-
dence is conclusive, that so fertile is the land in most of the West
Indies, that a slave, by a very small portion of corporal exertion
indeed, can obtain all that is sufficient to maintain existene.