The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1843-06-23 00:00:00

tiaritalothtivp Vrotreoolo,

HOUSE OF COMMONS.—MoNDAy.

In reply to a question from Mr. I-lINDLEY.
Sir R. PEEL said he was strongly in favour of tie ....k.11,e
pursued by the Spanish Regent, who, although surrounded
by the greatest difficulties, had still maintained with credit
the high position to which he had attained. Should he be
forced to abandon that position, he would stilt retain the
consolation that he had mainly contributed to lay. the - foun-
dations of constitutional government in Spain.
In reply to another question from Mr. 1-IINDLRY.
SIR J. GRAHAM said that it was the intention to go on
with the Factories Bill, though some alteration it•. the details
would be necessary, owing to the withdrawal of the educa-
tional clauses.

Mr. CHRISTOPHER complained that many of the names
signed to a corn law repeal petition from Epworth, in Lin-
coln:43lre, were forgeries, and moved that the petition be re-
ferred to a select committee.

Sir G. STaicKLAND said that he had presented the peti-
tion, and he had since made inquires upon the subject, and
found that some of the signatures were forgeries. He had,
however, received a communication from the Secretary to the
Doncaster Anti- Corn-Law Association, the party who had
sent him the petition, intimating that many of the names were
given under the impression that they would not be given to
the public, and such was the timidity of people in the rural
districts, that they feared to avow their real sentiments on
the subject of the corn laws.
It was then agreed to refer the subject to a select committee
Mr. BLEWITT asked if it were right that the King of
Hanover should still take his seat in the House of Lords and
exercise the duties of a peer of the realm and a privy
councillor ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL was disinclined to answer the
question, unless called upon by the house to do so.
On the motion for going into committee on the Factories
Bill.

Lord ASHLEY deeply regretted that the educational clauses
of the Factories Bill should be abondoned. Much had been
conceded by the Church in the way of concilation, hut in vain.
Doubtless the Government had done everything which it be-
lieved to be its duty, but the parties who had no reason to be
satisfied were the unfortunate objects of ignorance. For his
own part he would say, that unless a very great alteration
should take place in the temper of opposing parties, he would
not again be a party to any scheme for endeavouring to bring
antagonist bodies to act in harmony.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the teal cause of failure was to
be traced to the assumption of the Established Church,
which sought a supremacy, and would willingly apply the
money of the dissenters to teach the doctrines of the Esta-
blished Church. They should take up the subject on the
principles of commen sense, and treat all classes equally as
fellow-citizens.

Sir R. INGLIS was of opinion that if the government had
taken a more decided tone as to the kind of education to be
given to the people, it would have received a more cordial
support from the. members of the Establi hed Church. He
hoped that in the course of next session the government
would introduce a measure similar to the present, upon which
the house had not had the opportunity of giving any opinion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the government, having just
abindoned a long and well-considered scheme of education,
were not prepared to say that they had another under consi-
deration. In the course of his communications with the
heads of the church, they had displayed a great desire to con-
ciliate the dissenters and respect their rights.
The house soon after went into committee, pro forma, on
the bill, in order to make the necessary alterations, after
which the house resumed, and the adjourned debate on the
Arms (Ireland) Bill was resumed by
Mr. GISBOR.NE, who strongly opposed the bill.
Mr. COLQUI4OIIN contended that the state of Ireland pre-
sented serious obstacles to the administration of justice. It
was impossible to yield to the demands of the Roman Ca-
tholic priesthood, and it was necessary that some steps
should be taken to put a stop to the demonstrations of
physical force which were now continually taking place, and
which were as obnoxious as the No-popery riots of London,
in 1780.

Mr. WILLIAMS said be had visited Ireland in the course
of last year, in order to ascertain its condition, and he be-
lieved it to be the most wretched country in Europe. lie
also believed that the discontent of the people of that country
might at once be removed by the conLession to them of
common justice. The chief grievances were the Established
Church anti the state of the law as regarded the relations be-
tween landlord and tenant, and the sooner those evils were
taken into the consideration of parliament the better for thy
peace arid tranquillity of Ireland.
Lord J. MANNERS thought that Mr. O'Connell was gov-
erned in the the course he was pursuing by sincere and hon-
est motives, but he could not agree that the Catholic Church
should he the established Church of Ireland, merely because
it was the church of the majority. because the present Cath-
olic Church was not the same as the ancient Church of Ire-
land. which had always resisted the authority of the Pope
until the country was conquered by the English. It was
through the Established Church alone that any benefit could
be conferred on the people, if proper steps were taken to
supply the body of clergymen caiable of instructing the
people in the Irish Language. lie was of opinion that Gov-
ernment should enter into diplomatic relations with the
Court of Rome. They might do so with as much propriety
as with the Sultan or any other infidel Sovereign. They
should also find employment for the people, by reclaiming
waste lands and improving their condition.
Sir H. W. BARRON condemned the policy which had
been pursued towards Ireland during the last half century,
and said it was a monstrous absurdity that a church should
be maintained in districts where no people professing its doc-
trines were to be found. He did not object to the proper
maintenance of the Established Church, because though ire
believed his own religion to be the best, yet be did not feel
himself justified in forcing it upon others. He condemned
the conduct of the conservatives, whether in or out of office,
as unconcilatory or obstructive to measures beneficial to the
people of Ireland, and contended that the discontent and
agitation which prevailed were but the natural result of such
a course of action. If instead of treating the people of Ireland
as aliens in blood, language, and religion, they adopted an
equitable arid liberal course of policy, they might rest assured
that the result would be harmony and peace.
Mr. E. ELLICE said he originally intended to vote for the
Arms Bill, but his intention was changed by the speech of
Sir James Graham, who had declared that conciliation had
been carried to its utmost extent, thus leaving the people of
Ireland nothing more to hope for, and leading every one to
look at the present bill as the first step in a system of coer-
cion. He contended that Mehemet was more merciful than
was England to Ireland. Mahomet slaughtered or converted,
but England, with more ingenuity, allowed the neople to live,
but took from them the means of maintaining their own cler-
gy, and as an additional grievance applied those means to the
maintenance of a religion to which they were opposed. The
Government could never hope to maintain its position unless
it undertook to remedy the chief grievances of Ireland—the
Established Church and the tenure of land.
Mr. M. MILNES contended that it would be an indication
to the people of Ireland of weakness on the part of the Gov-
ernment it they were not to persevere with this bill. Ireland
stood out before all the milting of Europe as essentially a
religious country, arid it was impossible to govern Ireland
with advantage without the sanction and assistance of the
Catholic priesthood of that country. He did not think it
was requisite that the Established Church of Ireland should
be done away with, for he did not conceive that it was a prac-
tical grievance to the people. A recent law had given a por-
tion of Church property to the Landlords of Ireland, and he
did not feel disposed to make them a present of the remain-
der. He thought they had got quite enough from the country
already. At all events it could be no grievance to the people
that it should go to the clergy of the Established Church
instead of to the landlords, inasmuch as that in either case it
must be paid. The Government should act with justice and
impartiality towards Ireland—they should place one foot on
Protestant ascendancy, and the other on Catholic emancipa-
tion, and by adhering to such a course firmly and honestly
they would succeed in pacifying and satisfying the people of
Ireland.
Sir C. NAPIER said if be believed' tbe Arms Bill would do
any good to Ireland he would support it cheerfully; but, be-
lieving it would increase the agitation ten-fold, he would give
it every opposition. He condemned the language used by
Mr. O'Connell at public meetings in Ireland, and contended
that the Protestant Church of Ireland should be reduced to
the wants of the Protestant inhabitants, in which case a large
surplus would be left towards the maintenance of the Catholic
priesthood of that country.
Mr. L. Fox said he was of opinion that the Esatblished
Church must fall if tire repeal of the union should take place,
and he believed Mr. O'Connell would be able to carry the
repeal. lie was of opinion that the law of the land prior to
1829, when the Emancipation Act passed, was as much the
law of God as the law given to the Israelites on Mount Sinai.
He believed the time had arrived when the sword must be
drawn in defence of the church of Christ, and in the words
of Scripture he would say, that he who had not a sword
should sell his garment and buy one, fie was prepared to
prove that the late Emperor of France was the seventh head
from the Roman power as foretold in the Apocalypse. Rome
was more terrible in the present day than she had ever been
since the days when the old she wolf had been wet-nurse to
Romulus and Remus. (Immense laughter.) The hon.
member then referred to other passages of Scripture, con-
tending that the coming of Elias was at hand.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL condemned the whole purport of
the speech of Sir James Graham, which was calculated to
create great excitement in Ireland. It load led to an addi-
tional night's debating, but with that he did not quarrel, for
the two nights debate had got them well rid of two of the
most obnoxious clauses of the bill ; from which arose the
nice question in political arithmetic, if two nights' debates get
rid of two obnoxious claims how many nights' debating will
it take to get rid of the whole bill? The very fact of their
giving up the two Onuses proved that the bill was prepared
with haste and preeinitanpy, and that it should therefore be
referred to a select committee.,
Mr. MusTz thought these Arms Bills disgraceful to the
country, and he vindicated the right of the Irish people to
agitate for the repeal of any law they thought injurious. He
had himself been one of the most active agitators in England,
and while so had, as one of a deputation, been most graciously
received by Earl Grey, Earl Spencer, (then Lord Althorn),
and Sir James Graham, who was now seeking to put down
in Ireland a similar agitation to that which he hail encouraged
in England. He believed that this was not a question of the
church. On the contrary, he believed it was a question of
e stomach and nothing but the stomach, and if so treated
the remedy would be discovered.
The gallery was then cleared fora division, and the amend-
went of Mr. Wyse was negatived by a majority of 276 to 122.
On the motion that the Speaker should leave the chair,
The house went into committee, and on resuming the
chairman obtained leave to sit again on Friday.

likaip k 1
partio wbUra thc isctg of o,t, govArtiment rilo*
Injure they were tha verb Nipes nest entitlpd to protection.
The SauerTon-GE/sot/a, was decidedly of ;;pinion that,
this was a case in which the gqfernment eauld not interfere,
He contended that the partte4 had not an equitable claim
upon the country for coMpensatipP•
Mr. Hu.' T supported the ruction of Mr. Hawes, and said
a great portion of the money bat, Peen squandered in build-
ing palaces.
Mr. AGLIONBY also supported the motion.
Colonel SurTmottP said the gnvernment should be just
before it was generous, and instr ad of spendite; money on
pictures, statues, &c., they should apply it to the payment of
just claims like the present.
On a division the motion was del.( tated by a majority of 57
to 42.
Mr. S. CRAWFORD then rose to rn ove for leave to bring in
a bill to repeal the act of the let ye. tr of Geo. I, statute 2,
c. 38, for extending the duration of pal iiament to seven years.
The hon. gentleman said he would be • content to accept, at
present, the smallest concession, and w 'mid, therefore, ask for
triennial parliaments only, though he \ vas himself in favour
of annual parliaments.
Dr. BowurNo seconded the motion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said the motion was neither wise, politic,
nor convenient, and was an abandonrn( mt of the principles
laid down by the Reform Bill, by which the duration of Par-
liament was retained as a balance to t 6e democratic power
which was established by the provisim is of that bill. He
should oppose the motion, and would, th erefore, move, as an
amendment, the previous question.
The gallery was cleared for a divisiot I, when the motion
was defeated by a majority of 46 to 23.
Captain BERKELEY then drew the att ;ention of the house
to the inexpediency and danger of emplo Ong the old class of
10-gun brigs under commanders, and re-, :stablishing them as
sloops-of-war in her Majesty's navy. These 10-gun brigs,
which were called sailing coffins" in the: navy, were wholly
unfit for the service to which they were • about to be applied,
and were condemned by the surveyors ( if the Navy Board.
They were a class of vessels neither capa' ble of sailing, fight-
ing, or swimming, and yet such were d e vessels they were
about to place in competition with Awe :ken vessels on the
coast of Africa. The American vessels w ouid run these gun-
brigs out of sight, leaving nothing but mortification to be
endured by all on board them. Forme ;fly, when a naval
officer obtained promotion, his joy was ai ways enhanced if it
happened to be impossible that he cou Id be appointed to
those " floating coffins." Of 22 vessels which we.e lost in a
given period, no less than one-half wer 10-gun brigs, six
were vesaels of a smaller class, and out c f the remaining five
two went on shore, only three foundering at sea, while of the
" sailing; coffins" not one went on sh, ne—all went down
at sea, and all hands perished. With sue b a fact before them
he would ask if they would perservere in a the employment of
such vessels.. The gallant captain con, :luded by moving a
resolution to the effect that the house vie :wed with apprehen-
sion the employment of these vessels after the experience
which had been had of their dangerous c onstruction.
Captain PECHELL seconded the motio D.
Captain GORDON did not think this cl; ass of vessels so very
bad as was supposed, and thought the 1 olmiralty would not
be justified in declining to use them. rile coast of Africa,
he thought, best adapted for their capabilities, as calms and
light breezes usually prevailed there.
Mr. S. HERBERT said that a new class of gun-brigs was
being introduced into the service, super.sedins,: the old vessel,
not, because of their being dangerous, but because of their
bad sailing qualities. He hoped the house would not, there-
fore, confirm an abstract proposition found•ld on a miscon-
ception. and which would scarcely be doing justice to the
Admiralty, to whom such details were necessarily entrusted.
Sir C. NAPIca was of opinion that our deficiency in naval
architecture and the mismanagement of our naval service,
was to he chiefly attributed to the constitution of the Admi-
ralty Board, which was half a century behind the rest of the
world.
After some further discussion the motion was negatived
by a majority of 75 to 41.
Lord CLEMENTS moved for a return of the correspondence
connected with the disbanding of the yeomanry corps of Ire-
land.
Sir V. BLAKE seconded the motion, which was opposed by
Lord ELIOT, who contended that it would be extremely
inconvenient to produce the correspondence between one de-
partment of the government and the other. He had no ob-
jection to the production of all the orders for the disband-
ment of those corps.
Lord CLEMF.NTS accepted the return, as suggested, and it
was accordingly ordered.
The report on the Princess Augusta's Annuity Bill was
then brought up, and the house soon after adjourned.