The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-06-21 00:00:00

Emptriat. Padiamcnt.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MONDAY, JUNE 17.
EAST INDIA CHARTER.
Mr. C. GRANT and .others, from the Commons, appeared at
the bar, and desired a conference with their lordships ou a sub-
ject of the highest importance to the prosperity of the British
possessions in India, and to the commerce and revenue of his
Majesty's dominions.
A deputation of their lordships was then appointed, and on
their return front the Painted Chamber the Marquess of Lans-
downe communicated to the House the resolutions agreed to
by the House of Commons on the subject of the East India
question, to which the House of Commons desired their Lord-
ships concurrence.
Earl GREY moved "That these resolutions be printed."—Or-
dered.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH inquired when the discussion on those
resolutions would come on ?
Earl GREY.—Some day next week.
IRISH TITHES.
The Earl of WICKLOW gave notice that in consequence of a
new measure, relative to Irish tithes, having been brought into
the other House of Parliament, he should on Thursday next
move for certain returns, and he would take that opportunity to
express his sentiments ou the' subject.
Earl GREY suggested Friday, which was acceded to by the
Earl of Wicklow.

FOLITICAL UNIONS.
The Earl of WI scn t LSEA wished to know whether it was the
intention of his Majesty's government to bring forward any
measure for the suppression of political unions? In making i
this inquiry he was not actuated tt the slightest degree by any
factious or party motives (hear, hear) ; but he could not look at
the constitution of those unions, and the conduct which they
pursued, without declaring his opinion that they were incon-
sistent with all government. If they waited until that period
had arrived when the political unions, acting on the passions and
overclouding the reason of individuals, produced convulsion
and disorder in the country,—if they waited until that time,
and then endeavoured to apply a remedy, he feared they would
find that they had waited too long. He was perfectly convinced
that it was the duty, and he hoped it was the inclination of his
Majesty's government to take this question into consideration.
He could not look at those unions—he could not mark the spi-
rit in which their proceedings were conducted—without feeling
a strong conviction that the country stood in a perilous situa-
tion, and he thought that the noble lord at the head of the go-
vernment ought without delay to call for a measure to secure
the peace and tranquillity of the country.
Earl GREY said the noble earl, he was sure, felt no disposition
to do anything from a factious or party spirit, but was actuated
by a sincere desire td advance the general good of the country.
( Hear, hear.) Such also he could assure the noble earl, was
the feeling of the government. The noble earl seemed to think
that government had forgotten its duty in not proposing any
measure in that or.the other House of Parliament with respect
to these unions. In answer to that he would say that it did not
appear to him necessary to introduce any new laws bearing on
the political unions. Ile had never concealed his opinion as to
the nature of those unions; he had said that they were incon-
sistent with good government, and that they were formed
for the purpose of overawing and controlling Parliament. But,
to meet any attempt of that kind the powers of the law, as it
now existed, appeared to him to be amply sufficient; and lie
hoped, if any thing improper was done by those unions, that no
indisposition would be manifested on the part of government to
use those powers promptly ; but, on the part of the government,
he would say that they saw no necessity for the introduction of
any newineasures at the present moment; and that, therefoie, it
Was not the intention of his Majesty's ministers to bring any
such measures forward.

LOCAL JURISDICTION BILL.
The Loan CHANCELLOR said that in rising to move their
lordships that this house resolve itself into a committee on the
local jurisdiction bill, he must in the first instance congratulate
himself and the country on the large attendance of their lord-
ships cn this occasion. (Cheers and laughter from the minis-
terial iide.) It showed that their lordships came down to dis-
cuss tais bill in that calm, temperate, and serious manner which
so important a measure demanded. (Renewed laughter.) It
proved that they meant to give to the bill their most grave con-
sideration ; that they would examine all the principles on
which it was founded; that they would investigate all the details
of which it consisted; and that every part of it would meet with
the deliberate attention which the great magnitude of the ques-
tion required. So long as their lordships continued so to dis-
charge their dtities; so long as they persevered in showing
themselves attentive to what was most conducive to the in-
terests of their fellow-subjects; so long as they found it expe-
dient not.onlv to entertain, but favourably to meet, any propo-
sition made *for improving the condition of the people, by
amending the laws under which they lived, by purifying the ad-
ministration of justice, and by manifesting a sincere desire to
meet the feelings and wishes of their fellow-countrymen, when
properly expressed, and when they could do so consistently
with their sense of duty and the dictates of their conscience ; so
long unions might combine, and meetings might assemble,
and mobs might rage, and the licentiousness of the press
expend itself, all would assail their lordships in vain; and
even those threats which had recently been made would
fall perfectly harmless on that high court of Parliament.
The noble and learned lord then adverted to " the common,
law commissioners' " report, and detailed at length the opi-
nions of several eminent London and country lawyers on this
subject; the greater part of them deprecating the great expense
which the present system- of recovering debts entailed on both
plaintiffs and defendants; and, in conclusion, said that in the
first bill the jurisdiction of the courts was intended to extend to
actions of £lOO, but in the present bill the jurisdiction was not
to extend to cases where the sum exceeded £2O, and this he
made in defeienceto the recommendation of the commission-
ers, who were of opinion that they ought not to go further at
first. Another change was, that it was not intended to proceed
at once with the establishment of these courts all over- the
country, but the Crown would have the power to select three or
four districts in which such courts should be established at first,
and, as they saw their operation, to extend them to- other
places. If he should be told that this was an experiment, he
should take it, not as an objection to the plan, but rather as a
compliment. It was an experiment; and an experiment, too,
in which he and their lordships might have occasion to make
alterations as they should see how it worked. For his own
part, he did not expect that he should ever be able to present
any bill to the house in the operation of which experience might
not show—even if passed in the exact state in which it was
drawn—that many things had been omitted which ought to
have been inserted, and some things inserted which it were
better had been. omitted. Ile therefore thought it better that
they should proceed at first with caution, and therefore with
greater chance 'of safety ; and, when guided by experience,
they might even in a few months come to a perfect system, or
at least to the foundation of a system, so perfect as to enable
the people of thii country to say what they had now no preten-
sion for saying,—that they had cheap, effectual, and universal
justice. (Hear, bear.) lie would now move that their lord-
ships should resolve themselves into a committee of the whole
house on this bill.
Lord LYNDHURST said, that in pursuance of his pledge, that
if he should find this bill a just and wise measure it should
have the best support that he could give it, he had given to it
his most serious consideration. He had not, however, trusted
wholly to his own opinion, but had consulted with those on
whosejudgments he placed greater reliance, and the result was,
that he could not supportihe bill in the shape in which it now
stood. In this, he repeated, he did not merely give his own
opinion, he had conferred with many much more experienced
than himself, and he must say that in Westminster-halls—from
the higheit to the lowest—with some, he would admit, learned
exceptions, the great body of the learned profession were
opposed to it. It might be said, perhaps, that some of these
were interested parties. He would admit that some were; but
the great body had no other interest in the matter than that
which they possessed in common with their lordships, and he
must add, what he was sure his noble and learned friend (the
Lord Chancellor) would admit, that no body of men were ever
less disposed than the body to which he referred to oppose
their own interests to any measure which had the public ad-
vantage for its object. fie admitted that the principle of the
measure proposed by his noble. and learned friend was popular
with a great portion of the community—that they looked
with satisfaction at the prospect of cheap law, and expeditious
law; but he must say that there was a vast difference between
cheap and expeditious law, and cheap and expeditious justice.
He was ready tsi admit the existence of the great evils and in-
conveniences and hardships complained of in our present
system, but unfortunately those hardships and inconveniences
were almost inseparable from any system which could be
devised. Justice must be administered upon some
.genera'
rules, and in the adherence to those rules it would be =poss.
ble to avoid hardships and inconveniences in some cases. H
was sure that even in the new' system which his noble and
learned friend proposed it would be impossible to avoid them.
It was admitted on all hands that the administration of justice
in this country was more pure than that of any other country
in the world. This was what we were accustomed to, and what
we all expected;, but when we bad this purity in the principle
of its administration, should we not be cautious how we put this
system to any hazard by a change ? Mr. Justice Blackstone,
in describing the administration of law as administered by our
judges of assize, used this forcible and elegadt language:—
"The 'very point of their being strangers in the country is of
infinite service in preventing those factions and parties which
would intrude in every cause of moment, were it tried only
before persons resident on the spot, add as this constitution
prevents party and faction from intermingling in the trial of
right, so it. keeps, both the rule and the administration of the
laws uniform.. These justices, though thus varied and shifted
at every assize, are all sworn to tne same laws, have had the
same education, have pursued the same studies, converse and
consult together, communicate their decisions and resolutions,
and preside in those courts which are mutually connected; and
hence their administration of justice, and conduct of trials, arc
consonant and uniform; whereby that confusion and contra-
riety are avoided which would naturally arise from a variety
of uncommunicating judges, or any provincial establishment."
That local courts had been established in Scotland he readily
admitted; but that they worked abominably lie would prove by
the adirtission of his noble and learned friend himself. He well
recollected, that on certain petitions being presented from the
inhabitants of Scotland by 11Ir. Cutler Fergusson, his noble
and learned friend had expressed his feelings respecting those
eennt
ahcaep po ef ntewdo,
'that a‘ Idtelahvadhafdretcial
as the law at present of
courts in the folliiwingstoteoz
officer. In causes concerning
years, and in some instances five years, before a cause could
be finally adjudicated before this °
accounts such amounted to
from the two parties wentdelays were frequent.
ftorreqauelonnt.g writtenand pleadings
an immense mass of papers. The sheriff substitute had to
of go
time he gave his deci-
sion throughon thhee m
matter.a l andl nt
rathe t fullnessenbe
brought by appeal before
the sheriff-dePute, who might reverse the decision, or order it
latoilbgehtrfiefnearlrleyabtoe thbreouCgohutrtmrof Session, and from that court it
At present the practice of the Scotch courts was admitted to be
appeal to the House of Lords."
a nuisance. NS heftier when the written pleadings should be
abolished, and rice race evidence should be admitted in their
stead, the nuisance would be abated, was another question, in-
to which he was not called upon to enter on the present occa-
sion. :There was another country, besides Scotland, in which
this system had been tried, and he would now read to their lord-
' ships the opinion' which Captain Hall had published regarding
its operation in the United States, desiring them continually
to bear in mind that the habits of Americans were, with some
slight exceptions, the habits of Englishmen. "The principles
of bringing justice home to every man's door, and of making
the administration of it cheap, have had a full experiment in
America, and greater practical curses, I will venture to say,
were never inflicted ou any country." Speaking of the state
of Pennsylvania, he adds :—" They have done away with nearly
all the technicalities of the law; there are no stamps, no special
pleading's, and scarcely any .one is so poor that he cannot go to
law. he consequence is a scene of litigation from morning to
night. Lawless, of course, abound every where, as no village
containing above 200 or 300 inhabitants is without one or more.
No person, be his situation or conduct in life what it may, is
free from the never-ending pest of law suits. Servants, la-
bourers, every one, in short, on the first occasion flies off to the
neighbouring lawyer or justice of the peace to commence' au
action. No. compromise or accommodation is ever dreamt of ;
the law must decide .everything. The lawyer's fees are fixed at
a low rate, but the passion for litigating a point increases with
indulgence to such a degree that these victims of cheap justice,
or rather sheaf law, seldom stop while they have a dollar left."

Then there was another testinionv to the same effect in Faun's
Memorable Days in America. PauX says :—" Litigation fre-
quently arises. here from the imaginary independence which
one man has, or fancies he has, of others; to show which, on
the least slip, a suit is the certain result; it is bad for the
people that law is cheap; •as it keeps them . constantly .in
strife • with their neighbours, and annihilates that sociabi-
lity of feeling which so strongly characterizes the English."
Let their lordships look to the mode in which this bill would
operate on the bar. It would take two-thirds of the ordinary
business from the assizes, where young men recently called to
the bar went to learn experience, and to form themselves to the
practice of the courts, and to succeed to those vacancies in
their profession which the death of some and the elevation of
other members of it were daily opening to their hopes and to
their ambition. The business done at the assizes would be so
small in consequence that young men would cease to go the
circuits, and the little business that was left would be absorbed
and monopolized by the provincial counsel. Now, it ought to
be recollected that from the members of the bar the judges and
the Chancellor must of necessity be selected. Let their lord-
ships remember how deep an interest they had in upholding
the character and maintaining the dignity of that class of men
from whom the future Chancellor must be selected. Again, the
judges who were to preside in these local courts were to be
banisters of 10 years' experience, and men of irreproachable
character. Now, he would tell their lordships that it' they sent
such a man to live by himself in the country, and not-to asso-
ciate with his equals in legal knowledge and character, the
chances were that in the course of five years that man would
degenerate into a mere drone. (Hear.) He would ask their
lordships whether a man of such a character, ay, or of such a
class, was a fit person to be Lord Chancellor? He had looked
at the former bills introduced on this subject by his noble and
learned friend, and at the table of fees which those bills sanc-
tioned ; he had found those fees to be so low that none but very
needy attornies would work for them. You would thus have
in the lower department of the profession a set of men on whose
honour and integrity. you could place no reliance; you would
have them promoting chicanery and encouraging litigation,
for no other object than to recompense themselves by the mul-
titude for the small amount of their fees; and thus you would
degrade the legal profession at once from its highest members
to the lowest, by involving judges, barristers, and attorneys in
one common poverty and ruin. (Hear, hear.) If he (Lord
Lyndhurst) had been fortunate enough to possess- the powers
of eloquence which belonged to his noble and learned friend,
he would have placed before the eyes of their lordships a pic-
ture of such hideous deformity on this topic as would have
caused them to turn from it with shuddering and horror.—
The noble and learned Lord concluded a speech of great length
by saying that in this queStion he had no personal feelings to
gratify, no personal interest to serve. This question could not
in any point of view be considered as a party question, and he
was quite sure that none of their lordships would deal with a
proposition affecting the impartial administration of justice as
such a question. He had told his noble and learned friend
some time since that he should consider this bill with candour
and fairness. To the best of his ability he had so considered
it, and he now thought its principle so mischievous that he felt
himself bound, in discharge
,of the duty 'which he owed to his
country, to Westminster-hall, and to himself, to arrest its pro-
gress at this stage. He should therefore propose that this bill
be committed on this day three months.
'['he amendm'ent was then put.
After a short pause, followed by a cry of " Question,"
The LORD CHANCELLOR, addressed tfieir lordships.
The question was then put, and the contents were declared
to have it; but one noble -lord repeated the non-contents, and
the house was closed for a division. None, however, took place,
and their lordships went into committee on the bill pro jinmet.
To be re-committed on Friday, and: printed with' an amendment
proposed by the Lord Chancellor.
On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND, the order for the
consideration of the Quaker's Affirmation Bill was postponed
to Thursday, for which day the lords are summoned.
Adjourned at ten o'clock.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, MONDAY, JUNE 17.
The Speaker entered the house at a few minutes after twelve
o'clock. .
Mr. \Visits presented-a petition from the proprietors of the
Cemetery at Liverpool, respecting the registration of burials;
and a petition from the Protestant Dissenters of Hosier-lane-
Street, Reading, for the removal of disabilities respecting the
registration of births, marriages, &c. • and also a petition from
Lichfield, for the abolition of negro slavery.
Mr. EWART presented a petition front the merchants and
shipowners of Liverpool, praying for; he renicval of all restric-
tions upon the importation of sugar for the purposes of refining.
The petitioners stated, that they carried on an extensive com-
merce with Brazil, St. Domingo, Cuba, India, Batavia, and the
Indian Archipelago, which countries are mainly supplied with
British manufactures, but that owing to the high and Prohibi-
tory duties levied ou the chief productions of those countries
(sugar and coffee) on their importation into this country, they
suffered great inconvenience and loss in carrying on their, trade
with those countries, owing to the difficulty of. obtaining return
freights for their ships and remittances for-their merchandise ;
that the consequence of this state of the law is to encourage fo-
reign commerce, to the great injury and depression of that of
this kingdorfi; that they were prompted humbly to represent the
difficulties under which their commerce and shipp ng labour at
this late period of the session, that their interest may be fully
Considered in the settlement of the important colonial measures
now before Parliament; and that the exclusive monopoly of the
home market hitherto enjoyed by the colonies, and the large
bounty. granted on the re-exportation of theit sugars and mo-
lasses in a manufactured state, may be especially considered.—
They also stated that the colonies do not contribute anything to
the revenue of this kingdom, but that their government and
protection is a heavy charge upon it, whilst there is annually
paid out of the Treasury on the exportation of refined sugar and
bastards nearly £500,000; that the high price of sugar and cof-
fee, owing to this bounty and monopoly, operates as a direct
tax upon the consumers of this kingdom of nearly £2,000,000,
and that it tends so materially to restrain the consuniption of
these important articles as further to injure the revenue to the
probable extent of £1,500,000. That the exports of British
manufactures and produce to the aforenamed countries exceed
by fivefold those to our West India colonies, with a field for
unlimited extension ; whilst our imports admitted to consump-
tion frorn'those countries do not amount to. one-fourth the value
of our exports. The petitioners estimated the loss to the revenue
and commerce of the country by the present restrictive system,
by bounties actually paid out of the Treasury, by indirect taxa-
tion, by the restaiut upon the consumption, and upon the exten-
sion of commerce and manufactures, at fully £5,000,000 annu-
ally. They expressed a hope, that whilst the house was legis-
lating for the benefit of the slaves in our distant colonies, it
would also consider the present condition and future welfare of
the labouring population at home, especially thernariners, and
those of the manufacturing districts who are mainly dependent
for their daily bread on the maintenance and extension of our
foreign commerce ,• and prayed that the house would take their
petition into consideration, and,. whatever compensation May be
granted to the colonists for the manumission of their slaves, or
for any other of their just rights and privileges which they now
possess, may be a direct, full, and final one.
Mr. 'ln ICKNESSE supported the prayer of the petitioners.
Colonel WILLIAMS also supported the petition. The griev-
ance complained of by the petitioners was a national grievance.
Ile thought the country had too long truckled to the colonies.
He thought a compensation of £20,000,000 extravagant, and
had voted for it merely with a view of settling the question
amicably.
Mr. STRICKLAND, Mr. BUCKINGHAM, and Mr. PHILLIPS
also supported the prayer of the petition.
Mr. CLAY was anxious to take this opportunity of asking the
noble lord the Chancellor of the Exchequer a question relative
to the admission of foreign sugars. Was the Government pre-
pared to carry the alteration of which notice had been given
into immediate effect, or was the sugar 'refining trade of the
country to be ruined by any further delay ?
Lord ALTHOR P saint was his opinion that the restriction for
preventing foreign sugars being refined for exportation was a
great evil, while it was productive of no advantage to the West
India interest. (Hear.) Nevertheless, while the question of
negro slavery was under the consideration of the house, ,it
would not be desirable to open the matter. He was sensible of
the injury of delay, and considered the interests of the refining
trade—he would riot say in their depressed—but oppresed state,
could not much longer remain, at all events beyond the termi-
nation of the present session. He thought that in the early
part of the next session the house would be called upon to take
some decisive step.
After a few words from Lord SAN DON, Mr. PRYME, Mr.
RtrliveN, and Mr. EWART, the- petition was laid upon the
table.
Mr. EwAnT presented a petition from Liverpool, praying
that houses rated at £lO should not be liable to the payment of
poor-rates.
The SPEAKER vacated the chair at a few minutes after three.

The SPEAKER resumed the chair at ten minutes past five.
Mr. CHAPMAN brought in the Roman Catholic marriage bill,
which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Wednesday, the 26th instant.

FACTORIES' REGULATION RILL.
Lord Asni.E.v haying moved the order of the day for the
second reading of this bill,
Lord ALTHORP said he admitted it was necessary to place
some restriction on the amount of labour to be required from
children. The report of the commissioners appointed to inves-
tigate the subject was not quite ready, but he expected it would
be ready -in a few days so that it might be submitted to the
house before the bill went into committee. The opinion_ of the
commissioners was, that with respect to children under four_
.teen years of age the bill did not go far enough, (hear,) but
that in other respects it went too far.
Lord ASHLEY understood, then, that the principle of the bill
was conceded. •
The bill was read a second time. .
Monday next was named by Lord ASHLEY for its committal,
but at the suggestion of Mr.. P. 'rviomsoN, the comthittee was
fixed for Friday se'nnight, with a view to allow a few days for
the consideration of the report of the commissioners.
Lord ASHLEY expressed a hope that the noble Chancellor of
the Exchequer would aid him in his endeavours to pass the bill
in the present session.
Lord Aurnoßp said he would offer no unnecessary obstruc-
tion to the measure.-
EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER—CONFERENCE WITH THE

LORDS.

On the motion of Mr. C. GRANT. a committee was appointed
to manage the conference with the Lords. on the resolutions re-
lative to the East India Company's charter.
The committee then repaired to the House of Lords, and af-
ter a short absence returned, when
Mr. C. GRANT reported, that they had met the Peers ap-
pointed to mana,ge the conference on . the part of the Lords
in the Painted Chamber, and had communicated to them the
resolutions.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord ALTHORP moved the order of the day for going into
committee on this bill.
Colonel Woon begged to be allowed to present a petition
from the Archdeacon and clergy of Brecon against the bill.
The order of the day was then road, and the house resolved
itself into committee on the 20th clause, which was agreed to,
and during its sitting the committee agreed to all the other
clauses up to the 38th.
On the 39th clause being proposed, several hon. members ob-
jected to going into a new subject, after having been seven hours
in committee, and Lord ALTHORP consented not to press the
bill further at the present, giving notice that he meant to go on
with the committee de die in diem till all the clauses should be
disposed of. •
The house hiving resumed, the CHAIRMAN reported progress,
and obtained leave to sit again on Tuesday.
Thea agreed port.
toof the committee on Irish tithes was brought up
and
e movedSheriffs'the orderEx of fe
Expenses
hsee
slaßyiflol.r the house going
opposed the motion.
into i‘slri.rc,oFEM. PmKiNtliAeNefTEcoßtinatuhL L
The house divided— 42
For the motion
Against it
Majority for the motion —l7
The house then went into committee on the bill.
After a considerable discussion on the first clause, the com-
mittee divided—
For the clause • 32
Against it l7
Majority for the clause l5
The 4th clause was then agreed to, and after some converse-