The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-03-31 00:00:00

HOUSE OF C-031MONS.--FRIDAY.

--- - .
After some petitions had been presented the Clerk of the
Crown attended to amend the return fur the city of Canterbury,
after which Mr. Lushington took the oaths and his seat.
•

The SPEAKER informed the house that the petitions against
the returns for the counties of Cork, Waterford-, and Monaghan,
and for the boroughs of Belfast, Newry, and Bandon had been
abandoned.
Mr. IIIPLTY CoLeuarsE brought up the report of the, coin
mittee on the Rochester election petition, confirming the return
of Mr. Law Hodges.
LORD JOHN RL'SSEL'S MOTION FOR MONDAY.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who had previously retired behind the
Speaker's chair, in company with Lord Stanley, having re,
turned, addressed the house. He said the right hon. baronet
opposite (Sir R. Peel) asked him the other day to state the out-
lines of the motion he intended to make to the house on Mon-
day next. What might be the particular course he meant to
pursue on that occasion he was not prepared to say. He would,
however, say that he intended to move that the house resolve
itself into a committee for the purpose of considering the expe-

diency of applying the surplus revenue of the Irish church, after
providing for the necessary wants of the establishment, to pro-
mote the moral and religious instruction of the Irish people.
(Hear, hear.)
Sir IL. PEEL rose—Was the noble lord prepared to tell the
house whether, if the house acceded to his resolutions and went
into committee, he was ready go so far as to propose any prac-
ti.:al plan for carrying those resolutions into effect? (Cheers
from the ministerial side.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said he was not prepared for that question,
and could not therefore tell what might be done. (Hear, hear,
from the ministerial s►de.) But if the house went into committee
on the motion then it would be followed up by some other pro-
position. (Hear, hear, from the opposition.)
Mr. FINCH begged to ask of the noble lord whether he in-
tended to apply this surplus, if ally there was to be, to the reli-
gious instruction of the ltinnan Catholics? (Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL. was silent.

WALLACHIA AND MOLDAVIA.

Colonel EVANS said, having seen a statement in the papers
that the-government recognised the independence of Wallachia
and Moldavia, he begged to ask of the noble lord (Mahon) whe-
ther that statement was correct? In consequence of the policy
lately pursued by this country in regard to Russia, our trade in
the Black Sea was greatly diminished, and our genetal interests
greatly impaired. Would the noble lord lay before the house a
copy of the regulations that led to that independence, and a
copy of the cmespondence between this country and Turkey
relative to Russia's claim on those provinces? It was a point
on which the earliest information ought to be furnished to par,
liameut. . . .

Lord MAHON said if the hon. member had consulted him be-
fore on the subject he might have been prepared to give him an
answer; but at present he would best consult his public duty by
postponing his answer to a fitter opportunity.

ARMY ESTIMATES.
Mr. HERRIES after briefly observing that that was the only
day on which the estimates could be entered upon on account of
the other business before the house, and further, that the mu-
tiny bill would expire on the 25th April, and that great em-
barrassment to the public service would arise if these estimates
were any longer delayed, moved the order of the day for the
house going into a committee of supply on the army estimates.
Mr. HOME had always found Chancellors of the Exchequer
and gentlemen connected with the government anxious to get
the supplies with the least possible delay. The course he (Mr.
Hume) had adopted he admitted was not the usual one, but un-
less they adopted it there was no chance of redeeming the
economical pledges which most of the members had given to
their constituents. It was their duty to refuse the supplies un-
til the financial scheme for the corning year was laid before
them. No harm could, at all events, result from such an in-
quiry as would satisfy the people that they did their duty. After
adverting to several items of expenditure Mr. Hume concluded
by moving as an amendment that the army and ordnance esti-
mates be referred to a select committee to consider of the expe-
diency and practicability of consolidating some of the military
and civil departments of the army and ordnance, with a view to
diminish the expense of those establishments and to provide a
more efficient control over military expense.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL was ready to vote for the motion of the
hon. gentleman so far as its object was to appoint a select com-
mittee to consider the expediency of consolidating the civil de-
partments of the, army and the ordnance. He (Lord J. IL)
thought the war departments of the commander-in-chief, the
secretary at war, and the ordnance office in some respects in-
terfered with each other, and had no objection to refer that sub-
ject to a select committee, if the hon. member for Middlesex
would confine his motion to that object. He, therefore, took
the liberty of suggesting to the bun. gent. that it was not advis-
able for him to press his motion that evening (hear, hear), on
account of the statements made by the right hon. gentleman the
secretary at war. The course of their present proceedings was
certainly no fault of this parliament—(cheers)—it was not their
fault that they were getting somewhat too neat to the period
when the mutiny bill would expire fur them at present to enter
into the discussion of any other subject. He should have no
objection to going into a committee of supply, and take the vote
of a certain number of men. if the hon. gent. persisted in his
motion he should vote for it, but he begged to suggest to the
hon. gent. that it would always be in his ower to bring forward
his motion, which was another reason why he hoped the hon.
gent. would feel no objection to withdraw it on the present oc-
casion. (Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEY said that he concurred in almost everything
that had fallen from his "noble friend, and he mainly rose to urge
on the hon. member fur Middlesex to withdraw his motion fur
the present, after what had fallen from the right hou. secretary
at war. lie differed with his noble friend in this—that if the
hou. member pressed his motion, then he would vote agaitist
him; whereas his noble friend had said he would vote in favour
of it at that moment. If the hon. member would postpone it
and bring it forward in some shape hereafter, in which it would
not have the effect of stopping the supplies, or of the passing of
the mutiny bill, then he should certainly think it well merited
the consideration of the house, and a plan through which great
and extensive reductions might be made not only without injury,
but with great advantage to the country. (Cheers.) He re-
gretted that the labours of the commission which had been re-
ferred to had not been brought to a conclusion, because he felt
that this was a question that would be much better left in the
hands of the executive than it could be to a committee. He
should, therefore, be extremely glad to hear from government
that they would ire ready to follow up the inquiries which had
been commenced by the last government, and that they would
'not lose sight of the plans then proposed of the practicability of
consolidating the military and civil departments of the army
and ordnance, some of which were highly calculated to lead to
such reductions as had been made by his right hon. friend (Sir
J. Graham) near him in another branch of the service. (Hear,
hear.) He should be glad to hear if government was prepared
to act on that view; but if not, and the hon. member would
bring forward his motion at a subsequent period, he would not
only give him uo opposition, but, as far as he could, be ready to
give him every assistance in his power.

Sir ROBERT PEEL thought that on all former occasions the
house had shown that consideration which was but just to the
circumstances under which a government was called upon to
administer the affairs of the public. When the present admi-
nistration took office in December they found many questions
unsettled. Among them he enumerated the English tithes, the
Irish tithes, and the dissenters' marriages, as questions that
were unsettled, and the state of Canada as untouched. Having
had all these questions pressing upon them for consideration,
the house ought not to be surprised if others had not as yet been
approached. Two notices of motions as amendments had been
given for that very day. The hon. member opposite (Mr.
Ward) had given notice of a motion for to-day fur postponing
the vote on the army estimates till after the vote on Monday
night. He hoped the hen. member would persevere with that
motion • he believed it stood for to-night. Was it to come on
after the hon. member for Middlesex's motion had been dis-
posed of ? (A pause.) lie would take for granted that it was;
he hoped it was, because he thought that that would be a fair
and legitimate course by which the house could signify whether
they would or would not permit the government to continue in
the conduct of public affairs. He had never had greater anxiety
than he had had with respect to these repeated notices. Notice
was given on one day that the navy estimates should be post-
poned on the express ground that the house had no confidence
in the ministers; on the other, that the army estimates should
be postponed for the same reason ; and when last night he saw
the notice of the motion that the army estimates should be post-
poned till a vote was taken on the noble lord's motion, he did
not then entertain a doubt that at last a decision would be irre-
vocably come to, and that the house would come fairly to the
question whether it would allow a vote lobe taken for the num-
ber of men, or whether it would insist on the postponement of
the business of the house from want of confidence in govern-
ment. He did hope that a notice so recently, so deliberately
given, as that of last night,---:given too by one who had taken,
as he was entitled to take, so prominent a part in connexion
with the Irish church—on the question whether or not they were
prepared to postpone voting the flambe' of men required till
after the decision of Monday next—he did hope that, consider-
ing the position in which they stood, that hon. member having
deliberately given that' notice, was prepared fairly to bring it
under the consideration of the house. (Hear, hear.) The tune
had at length arrived when it was necessary fur the house to de-
termine whether or no they. mould allow further obstructions to
be thrown in the way of the public service. On the 25th of
April the mutiny act would expire. They had, therefore, the
power either by direct motion, or by factious obstructions
(hear, hear,) of preventing the public business from being pro-
ceeded with. He hoped, from a regard to the character of the.
House of Commons, the course they would take would be a
manly and straightforward course. (Cheers.) If they brought
forward irrelevant motions for the sake of postponing the neces-
sary business of the country, it became them to consider how
far that was compatible with the dignity of the house, and the
advantage of the public service (hear, hear;) and if they were
determined to submit a motion of want of confidence, let the
house know the wounds on which they proposed it. (Hear,
hear.) To waste the time of the house-by long and tedious de-
bates and frivolous Motions was not a fair and legitimate course
of opposition. (Loud cheers.) It was a fair and legitimate
course of hostility for the House of Commons to declare " We
have no confidence in your government, and we will not intrust
you with any vote or control of money," "and never," said the
right hon baronet, "did I pant for any motion as I do for that
(loud cheers,) and I am careless of what the issue of it may be."
(Great and continued cheers.). With respect to referring the
army estimates to a select committee, Sig Robert Peel said
that he never would consent to the precedent of withdrawing
those estimates nom the annual revision of the house and trans-
ferring them to a committee up stairs, where, as Sir James
Graham had said, " if a government wanted to slur over an
objectionable vote, or make an imperfect explanation, they
would have a much better opportunity of doing itin a committee,
where the public scrutiny was not let in (hear, bear,) where
--there was no irregular perhaps, but still very coercive, report of
debates. (Hear, hear.) If a governineet, he said, wanted to
screen objectionable votes from inquiry, let them send them up
to a select committee, exercising an influence in its formation,
and establish thereby the fatal precedent of withdrawing those
votes for ever from the jurisdiction of the committee of the
whole house." There was no office of which it might not be said,
where is the objection to refer au examination of it to a com-
mittee ? But the real question was, whether there should not
be made out a sufficient prima facie case. In the present in-
stance no case had been made out. After some remarks on the
business of the Commander-in-Chief's and War-offices, Sir
Robert continued as follows :—The remaining question was this
—whether he (Sir R. Peel) would undertake, on the part of the
crown, to consent to a committee of the House of Commons to
inquire into the amalgamation of the civil departments of the
army and the ordnance, or to the appointment of a commission
for the purpose. He believed that he might now refer to what
be bad hitherto not thought himself entitled to refer to—the
communication which the noble lord (Russell) had been good
enough to make with respect to the result of an inquiry insti-
tuted by the late government. He did not think that he should
have been called on to discuss that question, and the reason
why he had alluded to the multifarious duties which had been
devolved on the present government was this—that considering
the early meeting of parliament after their appointment, many
matters must have escaped that serious and attentive considera-
tion to which they were entitled. It was only last night that
the noble lord (Russell) complained that he (Sir R. Peel) was
not prepared, having opposed the admission of dissenters to the
universities, to propose a scheme by which, admitting the prin-
ciple, admitting the reasonableness of their expectations, the one
and the other could be, carried practically into effect. He ad-
mitted the principle, he said,. but could not pledge himself to a
measure with respect to the details of which he had had no 'op-
portunity of deliberately making up his mind. Now, he had no
hesitation or shame in admitting that he had not given to that
subject that full consideration which it deserved. But he did
not see any necessary connexion which it had with the vote of
the army and ordance estimates. (Cheers.) The honourable
gentleman ought to give notice for a future day of his intention
to move for the appointment of a committee for the purpose of
making the preliminary inquiries ; that would not at all inter-
fere with the progress of the army estimates, or with the general
public business. (Hear, hear.) 'lf, on cousidering the evidence
adduced before the commission alluded to by the noble lord, for
the purpose of determining whether, on the part of the executive
goverment, they should pursue that inquiry through the agency
of their own members, or through the agency of a commission
constituted as the last had been, he had afterwards to state, that
having read that evidence, he was of
~opinion that no such
change should be made, and that it was ntrt,flecessary such an
inquiry should take place; the hon. gentliii)an would be at
perfect liberty to submit his proposition to thi4euse. (Hear.).

Such was the course which, as a man of business and a minister,
he was resolved to pursue on the present occasion, not having
given the subject due consideration, and bein„; firmly resolved
that he never would, as a minister, consent to establish a bad
precedent for the purpose of escaping frtim a temporary difficuity.
(Cheers.) That was all the promise he was able to 'give. Ife
would consider the subject, and state on a future day the course
which government would pursue. The hon. gentleman would
then have an opportunity of bringing forward his motion for a
committee on the subject with every advantage, and without in
the slightest degree interfering with the public service. (Hear,
hear.)
Mr. Eur.ics, after adverting to the dismissal of the late go-
vernment, and the dissolution of the late parliament, concluded
by saying that the state of his health had not permitted him to
attend that house lately, hut from what he had seen government
were reduced to such a condition that they could carry no mea-
sure whatever, and if any opposition on the part of government
was started to a question brought forward by the opposition, it
was sufficient to insure its success. (Hear, hear.) How long
government was yet to remain in that humiliating position was
a problem which th,e right hon. hart. only could solve. But they
would soon have an opportunity of testing the question on the
state of the Irish:church, which would come before them on
Monday next, and which called for an immediate decision.
Probably the right hunt ,hart. would then see what confidence
the house and the country had iu the principles and po.icy to
which he had attached himself. (Hear.)
M r. Hums consented to withdraw his motion for the present,
without abandoning his intention of resuming it on a future
occasion, as he still thought that the estima..es should be re-
ferred to a select committee. _ _ _ _

Mr. WARD also- abandoned his intended opposition to the
house going into committee.
The house then resolved itself into a committee.

Mr. H ERR lES having previously roue into some explanations
respecting the reductions made by the late government, and the
intention of the present to pay every possible attention to the
changes contemplated by them, moved • That it was the opinion
of that committee that a number of men not less than 81, 268,
be employed as his Majesty's land forces during the year 1835."
Major BEAUCLERK moved, as an amendment, that the num-
ber should be reduced to 75,000 men. On this amendment the
committee divided. The numbers were :
For the amendment ... 57
Against.it i•••••• 229

Majority fur the original motion ..
The following votes were passed :
£77,431 Os. 10d. for allowances to the principal of the public
departments of the army.
£9,440 for the Royal Military Asylum.
£1,275,675 to pay soldiers' pensions.
The house then resumed.
Mr. EWART moved that the house dci'adjourti.
The motion was not put, and the house proceeded to other
orders of the day.
Mr. RUTHVEN, jun. moved that the house do adjourn.
The motion was not put, and the hon. member repeated it.
The question was then put from the chair.(as we believe) but
Mr. PaAsix brought up a bill, the title of which we could not
hear.
Mr. RUTHVEN, sen. rose and called the attention orthe'chair
to the circumstance of the question of adjournment having been
moved, and, as he understood, put, notwithstanding which other
business was proceeded with.
A good deal of mirth was excited in the house by the Speaker
continuing to dispose of the question immediately before it,
whilst Mr. Ruthven was endeavouring to gain a hearing. At
length the question of adjournment was put from the chair, and
the house adjourned (amidst loud laughter) at a quarter to one
o'clock.