The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-15 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL SELECT VESTRY.

On Wednesday a meeting of the rate-payers of the parish of
Liverpool, was held at the Sessions-house, to take into consi-
deration the propriety of adopting the Hobhouse Vestry Act,
L. M-IVER, Esq., in the Chair.
The requisition for calling the meeting having been read by
the Vestry Cierk,.
Mr. LANGTON said that he had served the offices of overseer,
sidesman, and churchwarden of the parish of Liverpool, and he
regretted to see an attempt made to change the system of ad-
ministering the affairs of the parish, as they were now con-
ducted under Sturges Bourne's Vestry Act. He had under-
taken the charge of proposing a • resolution declaratiory of the
opinion of the meeting, that the introduction of Hobhouse's
Vestry Act would lead to great confusion. From an experience
of the past, he could safely and conscientiously say that he knew
of no reasons why they should depart from the system under
which their affairs were at present managed, and concluded by
moving
" That since the introduction of Mr. Sturges Bourne's Act
into tt,is parish; the parochial affairs have been conducted with
economy, and a due attention to the wants of the poor, the ac-
counts of receipt and expenditure have been annually pub-
lished, the proceedings of the select vestry have at all times
been open to the inspection and examination of the parish-
ioners.

" That the annually recurring election of a select vestry is
the'best protection to the parishioners against lavish expendi-
ture on the one hand, and negligence or favouritism in the col-
lection of the rates on the other. • Under these circumstanees,
it is the decided opinion of this meeting, that the interest of the
parishioners at large will be best consulted by a continuance of
the present 'system. "
Which was seconded by. Mr. FAIRCLOUGIL
Mr. SANTLEY requested that the Vestry Clerk would read
Sir J. C. llobhouse's Vestry Act—that the meeting might know
what its provisions were before they decided upon adopting it.
Mr: LOwNOEs, the Vestry Clerk, read the
.heads of the Act,
and explained to the meeting, at length, several of the clauses ;
after which, he read the resolution that had been proposed and
seconded, when--•

Dr..CowNs said, that he should oppose the adoption of that
resolution to which he had an amendment to propose. The
resolution stated that the affairs of the parish were well managed
by the Vestry embodied under Sturges Bourne's Act, he (Dr.
Collins) denied every tittle of its assertions. The question
now before them was not of a political or party character;
every man felt thafthe parochial expenditure was unnecessarily
great, and it was well khoWn that one-fourth part of the whole
sum collected was expended in paying clerks and other officers.
The gross sum. collected, in the shape of parochial rates,
amounted to £36,000 a-year, and the sums paid to these officers
was about £12,1,00, and he would ask whether this was, or was
not, a lavish expenditure of their money, ? The accounts pub-
lished shewed that from 10 to £12,000 a-.year was spent in
management.. He did not want to shelter himself under gene-
ralities, bdt was prepared to go into particulars to shew how
much they wanted reform. He contended that the office of
Vestry Clerk was considerably overpaid;_ this officer was
allowed £3OO a-year, and his bill amounted to £2,000. (Mr.
Lowndes denied that his bill was any thing like that sum.) Last
vear a motion had been made to publish the particulars of the
Vestry Clerk's bill, and strange to say he saw, on that occa-
sion, both Whigs and Liberals voting against that propo-
sition. In the workhouse there were abuses the recital of which
would make their blood freeze, and yet gentlemen were ready
to come forward and deny the existence of them; instead of re-
moving the person who had originated them, they had shielded
him by the introduction of Sturges Bourne's Act. Under that
act some were permitted to give six votes in the election of Ves-
trymen, who were thus removed from the controul of the pub-
lic. Mr. Hobhouse's Act levelled this distinction, which reduced
all the rate-payers alike to one vote only: When a member of
Parliament was to be elected, then principles were every thing,
and parties were arrayed against each other to try their strength
in a contest; but when justice was to be administered, then
whigs, tories, and others of equally opposite opinions were
found united to insure its defeat; therefore, they ought not to
be influenced or guided by the names that might appear before
them, but by the superior merits of the system which the Hob-
house Act would introduce. Under this Act they would not
have a governor of the Workhouse with a salary of a £l,OOO a-
a-year, nor a Vestry-clerk with his £1,500 or £2,000 a-year.
The old bill gave to certain individuals six votes, and hence the
corporation and exchange gentlemen carried things their olxn
way. From the exchange they frequently hurried away and
voted for any thing to " put down those fellows," as they called
their fellow-townsmen without any other knowledge of the sub-
ject on which they voted, than that it was proposed by one of
the humbler classes. The introduction of the Hobhouse Act
would give them another check on abuses in the publication
of their accounts ; from this the public would derive great
advantage; it would come home to the poor who were now
sacrificed. In the late assessment the rate had been increased,
and this system had not only increased the parish, but the
King's taxes in the same proportion. He asked them whether
they would support the old system for the mere sake of party, in
preference to one so well calculated to control the lavish expen-
diture of the parish, and concluded by moving as an amend-
ment

" That Sir J. C. Hobhouse's Act receives the approbation of
his meeting, and they pledge themselves to support it."
Mr. PETER ELL is seconded the amendment.

Mr. THOMAS SMITH had waited to hear the argument of the
supporters of the old system;—how had this boasted system of
economy operated ? 1 heir streets were filled with thieves and
beggars and they had gone on "grinding the faces of the poor."
One gentleman was paid for his services, five pounds a week or
three shillings an hour, for doing what would be to' many gen-
tlemen merely an amusement. He did not mean to charge the
vestry individually with acts of corruption, but in their collec-
tive capacity he saw much to complain of. They had an ex-
penditure of from 40 to £50,000 a year to control. Some two
or three attended who obtained by so doing the patronage which
the distribution of this sum put into their hands, in the pur-
chase of the. supplies wanted. All this the Hobhouse act had a
tendency to open. He himself had five votes, so that he could
have no personal interest to serve by reducing them to one,
and he thought it would be unnecessary for him to trouble them
with many words, to induce them to adopt it in preference to the
other. He resisted some years since the introduction of
Sturges Bourne's act, and ceased to pay any attention to parish
affairs, and what had been the consequence ? (A laugh.)
Since the adoption of this bill, one salary began at £l5O, and
had gradually crept up to £250.a year. The question was sim-
ply whether they would choose their own officers by ballot—have
all the parish 'accounts open to inspection, or leave them in the
hands of a party of aristocrats.
Mr. GODFREY BARNSLEY said that he bad quitted the select
vestry because it interfered with' his avocations in business, but
he denied that any system of patronage or favouritism existed
in the distribution of the parish funds. It was well known that
a fin-nice committee had been formed who had inquired into
this subject, and the assertions of Mr. Smith were altogether
unfounded in fact. He (Mr. B.) appioved of the rate which
enabled the parish to get out of debt. The affairs of the parish
were well managed, and, as far as he knew, all the articles re-
quired were purchased at the best markets and on the lo)vest
terms. The question for their consideration was, whether Stur-
ges Bourne or Hobhouse's act was the best, and he conceived
that the introduction of the latter would introduce aaadditional
scene of confusion, and therefore he would oppose its adoption.
Mr. W. W:CURIIIE had resided in Liverpool all his life, and
if ever one circumstance more than another gave general satis-
faction to the town it was the introduction of Sturges Bourne's
act;—at that time the cry for it was universal, and all were sa-
tisfied with the management subsequent to its adoption. Some
observations had been addressed to the feelings rather than to
the judgment of the meeting. Dr. Collins had said that when
it was wished to put down a class of their fellow-townsmen, that
the Exchange gentlemen always followed a leader, and united
to effect that object without reference to its merits, or without
knowing what they were about to support or condemn,—this he
denied. No reasons had been adduced which should induce the
parishioners to render the town one scene of confusion. The
cauldron of agitation was already full, and needed not the ad-
dition of further ingredients.
Dr. COLLINS explained.
Mr. ROBERT ELLIS said, that Hobhouse's act was made by
one who understood the nooks and corners and the dirty parts
of parish abuses. Under the old system persons were found
voting, but ignorant of what they voted for. (Here Mr.
LOWNDES observed that ignorance was not always on one
side.) After making some observations in support of the
amendment, and souse remarks on the Churchwarden, he said,
that that gentleman did his duty, but he would only do it in
his own way.
Mr. RA wLINsoN made some observations to show that a
system of favouritism prevailed in the distribution of the busi-
ness consequent upon the reparation of the Churches.
Mr. FOSTER denied this, and said that they were done by
contract.
In continuation, Mr. R. said that the gentlemen who
advocate things as they are, had studiously kept out of sight the
subject of " the six votes," and concluded by saying that he
belonged to the middle class of tradesmen, and therefore, might
be supposed to know something of their feelings. from the cer-
tainty of being outvoted by the six vote gentlemen, they seldom
attended at all, under the present system it was Bricks versus
Brains. •

Mr. HARDMAN EARLE said that the question had been
rowed by the last speaker to the six votes, and but for t2bi
would never have heard of the Hobhouse Vestry A.ct. .1„
whose property the greatest amount was levied, ought 7i
the control of itt expenditure. The principle was admitulll l
creation of the ten pound voters under the Reform 13,
gave certainly to the small as well as the large proPri;/
equal vote; but then, in the election of the members
bsi
liament' they were equally interested, as the Parliament_
liberties as well as the property of the subject under
troul. Here the case was widely different, for the p,aristh,
had only the funds of the parish to vote away. d
that this was a mere political skirmish, and how,tuez
was of no importance. He bad no doubt that the
paid the largest proportion of the sums levied, and tIV
was purely a question raised by the cottage voters. tiv;
Mr. TURNER made some observations condemning
aft
sure in which checks were given at the Workhouse, aft
tended that frauds to a considerable extent might arise„
Mr. BOLD, as a select vestryman for six years, was lc
of the practice :,ll uded to; previously to the establislnneo
select vestry the poor rates were is. 4d., the year aftg,
were lowered to ss. 6d., and had subsequently been re
2s. in the pound.
A show of bands was then called for, when the Ole
was carried; and Mr. FOSTER moved the thanks of the!,
to the mayor and common council for the use of the
House, add also avote of thanks to the chairman.

Uftilz,,
,_

tnittee
rther in
a sPech
:11

The names of the committee appointed to inqull!,
last election for this town, are as follows :—Mr. 131,?'
Mr. Langdale, Mr. Brodie, Mr. Richard Oswald,
Mr. Bish, Mr. Barnard, Mr. John O'Connell, Mr. NI
Mr. Edward Cui'teis, Mr. Lewis Fenton, Mr. Beni eio
ley, Mr. John Marshall, (Mr. Benett and Mr. 15'
Power to send for persons, papers, and records. Five
quorum.—This is the reduced list. It will be seen tb
fifteen who compose the committee, thirteen are new
who, of course, are just as ignorant of parliamentar
iogs, and the rules of evidence, as the statue of Gel
of the poetry of the Magyars.
MR. JOHN GIBSON, OF LIVERPOOL.—The followii
our townsman, Gibson, residing at Rome, is copied I
reign correspondence of the Times: "You will be hap
that the English artists are held in much estimation
that there is a peculiarly friendly feeling towards the
of the Romans who most excel. We ought really to
that our country has sent out such able persons
Wyatt, Gott, &c. The first-named gentleman has
pieted the model of poor Huskisson, for the Co,
Liverpool; it is thought the likeness will be ver
figure is of the heroic size. Nor onght Ito forget
of Severn, Williams, Desoutavy, &c., who, in tl
tive kinds of composition, ale producing pictures
call forth universal admiration in our British exhibi
The annual meeting of the Floral and Horticult,
took place at the Clarendon-rooms, on Wednesday.
Treasurer's accounts having been passed, the meets
the silver medal given by the London Horticultural
the gardener of William Smith, Esq., of Fullwood, fi
and most numerous specimens of Horticulture, &e.,
by him at the three shows during the past year. Tb,
exhibition for the ensuing year were then fixed fol
April, 29th May, and the 31st July. John Ashton'
was chosen President, and the other officers Navin;
pointed, the meeting separated with a full convietil
exh;bitions of this year will exceed those of the
years, in the superior quality and number of specimo
exotic and horticultural productions.
THE NEW VESTRY ACT.—As many of our rear
doubt, wholly unacquainted with the act, (Sir J. C.
Vestry Act,) it may be acceptable to them to be ini
according to its provisions, any fifty rate-payers in,
the churchwardens to take the votes for or against its
and the present question appears to have original
signatures of 55 persons, of whom 48 are in Li
Under this act the property of the rate-payers'
limited extent has hitherto been represented, th,
votes in a certain proportion to the value of such pt
be deprived of that legal protection, the act in quest
only one vote to each rate-payer. This act, if adopted,
require the vestry to consist of 120 members, wb'
remain in office three years, (one-third going out
sequent year,) however, inattentive or incompetent
be, and of whom the vacancies occurring by death
can only be filled up at the annual election, will
present more efficacious system, which, as it re'
twenty vestrymen, the whole or any of whom may
at the annual vestry, and any vacancies be filled up
months, gives the rate-payers the most prompt c(
their parochial representatives. However desirable
sure of this kind may have been for the improvc,
metropolitan or other parishes in which the vestrymen
in office for life, and were elected by the membe
vestry without any reference to the rate-payers, it
this parish, and we are aware that it was originally
be applied only to parishes where the inhabitants ao
ble in open vestry. We should exceedingly reeTet
act adopted in Liverpool, where the benefit o 7
Bourne's act has been fully established since the
when the affairs of this parish were, by its effective '
redeemed from their incumbrances, and placed uncle
of management which has given satisfaction to the
at large.—Liverpool Courier.
CORONER'S INQUEST.—On Monday last an inque:
before Robertson Gladstone, Esq., touching the deaf.
M'Connell. It appeared, from the evidence, that the
had, on yesterday se'nnight, gone out with one Mal
with whom she had some drink. The latter had that
gone to lodge with her. They returned home about
both intoxicated. They then had some more liquor,
afterwards Maria Hinde missed her purse, which si"
the deceased of having taken from her knee. On st
made the purse was found lying near the fender; the
became highly indignant at having been accused, and
ensued, but at this time no blows were struck. The
the deceased soon after came in, when the matter vva'
to him and the quarrel became hotter. The deceat
her opponent, a violent struggle ensued, and both fel
the former uppermost. The husband of the deceased
sound of a heavy blow as they fell near a press-bed 0
ner, and on lifting them both up he saw the blood,
from his wife's face. He exclaimed, " My. God !
have killed yourself." They, however, continued to
each other with the greatest fury, and M'Counell
stairs to claim the assistance of the lodgers. On
Maria Hinde had his wife's head under her arm, and
ing her in the face. They were parted, and the '
her luggage, was put out of the house. When M
turned into the parlour he found the deceased lying
on her face, crying out for water. He gave her solo
her on a sofa, soon after which he was obliged to lea'
attend to his business. Some of the neighbours wen'
eight o'clock, when the deceased was sensible, and
water, which was given to her, soon after which she
Thos. Lockwood, surgeon, said, that on examination.
of the deceased he found a wound on the forehead,
above the nose. From the various appearances
the course of examination, he was of opinion that the
deceased was caused by extravasation of blood prey'
brain. He had heard the evidence, and a fall won'
such appearances.—Verdict, accidental death.

IRELAND.

IGNORING OF THE BILLS AGAINST CArr, Bons
Kilkenny Assizes, the Grand Jury have ignored
against Capt. Burke, for the alleged homicide co'
this gentleman and a party of the police, at Knr
that county.—Dublin Evening Post.
DEATH OF THE EARL OF LLANDAFF.—WC rt
nounce the death of the Earl of Llandaff, which
yesterday, at the residence of his lordship in Mt
He had been walking through town the day previot
in good health. The titles of his lordship, Earl of I-
Viscount Matthew, are, we believe, extinct. His De'
the hon. General Matthew, who represented the c`
perary in several successive Parliaments, died fo,
ago; his second brother, the hon. George Math,
short time since. The late Earl of Llandaff was
Miss Latouche, sister of John David Latouche, Esq
mily seat is Thomastown, in the county of Tipperar.
Morning Register.
it‘
MURDER OF MR. LEONARD.—The horror excel ,
atrocious enormity continues to increase. We no.
however, that much new light has been thrown eh
ject. Neither his watch nor his money appears
disturbed in his pockets. We do not credit the si°
persons having been arrested. The following is tli
ment that we have seen; it is contained in a P"
dated New Ross, March 10th :—" The inquest ter at
terday, in about two hours from its commencopj,
held before two magistrates, Wm. M. Glascott and
Esqrs. Three witnesses were examined, but no c
obtained towards the discovery of the perpetrators,
rible crime. The jury, without hesitation, return U,
Wilful murder' against some person or persons
Mr. Leonard's interment takes place on MondaYeA
trick's, his family burial-ground. The funeral is old
leave Ross about ten o'clock on Monday morning,
Waterford at two."—Weterji)rd Mirror.

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fat. (Concluded from
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com-
mittee,at.rg this way, to procure from the or from some proper quarter, to prove to them that no
eans existed for bringing this matter fully to light but
special act of parliament.
b2.1._1 ELLICE said if he thought that his object could be effected
hiesarjy other means, he would not have made this motion; but
be 4 that if the proposition were not agreed to, there would
thele:loplete bar to inquiry. His only object was to expose
this Cst enormous corruption. When Sheridan stood for
mr.'4,,Vgh he believed the votes were £7 a-head.
make YriN put it to his hon. friend whether it was right to
try th neSe allegations before those who were to be the jury to
tends question. Such statements were likely to bias their
M. EL to be , LICE thought that no gentleman's opinion was lilFely
ford. massed by an historical account of the borough of Sat-
oti
The
sir
,LIcE on was then put and carried.
' rt O.F,L
then moved—That the consideration of the re-
from t tue Stafford election committee shOuld be postponed
ursda,y, the 14th March, to Tuesday, the 21st May.
poiter WYNA suggested that it would be better to fix the post.
if possible, for an earlier day.
hued L tortitticE acceded to the ges
sugtion, and it was accordingly
Tuesday, the 16th of April.
Nlr DRAMATIC AUTHORS.
the "•EUENVER, in moving for leave to bring in a bill for
feel jitter protection of dramatic authors, said that he did not
as he necessary to occupy the house withi many observations,
tllsiis sure that the necessity.of some legislative measure on
tit a4tfileet was universally admitted. At this moment. drama-
.s°rs possessed no control over the use of their property,
r,f lit, was very properly given to other labourers in the field
lishedrature by the laws of copyright. A play, when pub-
the k",:iallaight be acted upon any. stage without 'the consent of
Pro4t,lr, and without his deriving a single shilling from the
14014 al the performance. The hon. member concluded by
g for e
Mave to bring in the bill.
PrOvi..G. ILAB said that as far as he was acquainted with the
kikcil°tis of the bill of his hon. friend, they had his approval,
154 we„ 4,id hope that the consequence of passing such a mea-
'tate be to elevate dramatic literatuic from that depressed
terw'll which, he was sorry to say, it, as well as all other in
connected with the drama, had be!.n for many years.
• aye was then given to bring in the bill.
• - DRAMATIC PERFORMANCES.
44a. Bui..WER said he rose to move for leave to bring in a
• • for licensing theatres, and for the better regulation of
ltie performances in the cities of London and Westmin-
'll within twenty miles thereof," and in doing so, he
lei it necessary to trouble the house with but a very few
,4°,08. The bill which he was now about to introduce
roed upon the recommendation of the committee of
ii" upon dramatic performanCes, and he should read to
the paragraph from the report in which that recom-
- was.contained. The article suggested the propriety
"O to the Lord Chamberlain the power of licensing
Within twenty miles of London; and to managers the
tir°' Performing any plays that had received the sanction of
b.,atuatie censor After describing the general details of
the hon. gentleman said that he thought the office of
idwas,perfectly unnecessary. (Hear, hear.) Undoubtedly
rllee which-had been given by the present censor before
tittee had failed to convince him either as to the im-
of the functions attached to that office, or as to the
'with which they had been exercised, but as it might
to the bill if it proposed to abolish that office, it pro-
leave the authority of the censor just as it was at
The bill provided a graduated sale of fees as payable
—ord Chamberlaine, or his deputy,c for the licensing of
and dramatic pro luded by.
moving °II. member conc moving for leave to bring in

itio L Amu did not mean to offer on this occasion any
oto the bill iaroposed by his hon. friend ; on the con-
he thought that the time was come when some such
BQouldbe passed with regard to dramatic performances.
-4tieinely doubtful that any good would arise from the in-
' of the legislature in controlling the public in matte's
There certainly was an idea in this town, and other
that the neighbourhood of theatres caused the intro-
of a loose population. It was therefore but right to
io the power of objecting to their introduction. With
t 0 the censorship, he thought it was productive of utility,
r- it could not be dispensed with. He trusted that his
fieleod would .not hurry the bill through the house, but
• 1/euld afford time to the persons iu this metropolis who
11111terested in its provisions to make their representations
either for or against the measure.
umE was sorry to hear the honourable gentleman ex-
' °Pinion in favour of the retention of the censorship
aatie performances. He was quite sure the present
kany ears depreed state of the drama, was u-
° the pyrotection ofss the Lord Chamberlain and the Sattrib
of the censor.
AattiunToN said that as the object of the present sys-
the affording irrational amusements at the dearest rate,
kiect of the present bill would be to afford to the public
amusements at the cheapest rate. The object of the
'titres seemed to be to administer rather to the physi-
,, to the mental gratification of the people. (A laugh.)
'',,,IvART regretted that the bid was confined to the metro-
Ile had himself presented a petition from Liverpool,
lat in that town and its neighbourhood there was a po-
oli, le;),(X)0 persons unprovided with theatrical amuse-
kzle would move a clause to extend the bill to the coun-
rlion. gentleman would not do so himself.
ARING thought the office of censor a most useful one.
tentlenaen had only to judge for themselves of the effect
"licensed system in Paris to arrive at the same con-

utAvEtt said that there was no need of a censorship, as
%orals had actually risen higher than the licence, which
)r would not lower. This was evident from the fact,
1Y of the old plays, which the censor could not prohibit
tlig• represented, were not and could not be played from
lelicacy. The absence of such exhibitions here as those
to by the hon. member for Essex in Paris was not Tin-
to our censorship, but a higher standard of public mo-
Ave was then given to bring in the bill.
ROYAL BURGHS IN SCOTLAND.
'IID ADVOCATE moved for leave to bring in a bill to regulate
'Pal constitution of Royal burghs in Scotland. The learned
?,terized this as a measure, the importance of which to the
which•he belonged was second only to that of the great bill

IItVING (we believe) expressed his regret that the learned
tot referred the subject to a committee in the first instance.
involved the rights and privileges of a number of persons in
lie hoped time would be given for the consideration of the
country.
113 ADVOCATE said that his purpose had been all along, that
I, the bill should he, printed and circulated in Scotland, and
• Opportunity afforded to all parties to furnish suggestions,
he should be most thankful.
moved for leave to bring in a bill to enable burghs in Scot-
'Nish a general system of police ; which, after a few obser-
-4111 Mr. Gillon and Captain Dunlop, was granted.
, kium, in the absence of Mr. Stanley, postponed his mo-
bill to amend the laws relating to the constabulary force is

S 35 0 Wet,
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