The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-07-05 00:00:00

committee to mider the practicability of progressively reduc-
ing the nationallebt by its conversion into terminable annui-
ties at graduall)limini;hed rates of interest, so as to lessen its
burden every yet.; and to determine the best mode of assessing
the property an income of the kingdom to meet the expense of
such conversion and to form at the same time a surplus revenue
fund, which sheld enable the Parliament progressively to re
peal, those impels which bear most heavily on the agiicultural,
manufacturingaud shipping interests 9f the country." It had
ever been urgs in answer to any proposition for the relief of
the country thi the national debt occupied too large a portion
of the revenua the country. The present funded system was
generally obje;ed to on many grounds, and the plan which he
had to proposiwould, he thought, meet all those objections.
Amongst other, it was complained that the funds were too
various, and must say that the variety seemed to be occa-
sioned by theanxiety of all Chancellors of the Exchequer
heretofore to lake them as mysterious and incomprehensible
as by ingenuif could be contrived. To obviate this, he should
propose that to national debt should be converted into a gene-
ral fund, to I called the national annuity fund, and to be
terminable atthe end of 100 years, so that at the least the
children of th present or next generation should be relieved
from the deb which would then have an end. This fund,
so terminable should not, as he proposed, bear an uniform
rate of intent, but, commencing at live per cent., should be
reduced eacbyear one shilling per cent., and that reduction
being contined during the whole period of 100 years, the
debt would ecome extinct. This plan would not only re-
lieve a geneation yet unborn without inflicting any injury
upon the prsent generation, but the great advantage would
arise to •therundholder of preventing the risk of the debt be-
ing swept any by any political convulsion.; He had already
saidthat he viuld commence the rate of interest at 5 per cent.,
and it was tze that money could now be had for 31 per cent.,
and thereforit became necessary to provide for raising a greater
sum than ws now required to pay the interest of the existing
national deb. This deficiency he proposed to supply by a tax
upon propezy and income, a tax which, on all the principles
of legitimatetaxation suitable to every country, was, he main-
tained, the firest Ind most equitable. He contended that the
unequal presure of taxation, and the distress thereby occa-
sioned on thfmass of the people, not only had an injurious effect
upon the pubic mirals, but also upon the dispensation of justice.
All he wantd was a committee to ascertain the fact whether a
property taxcouk not be imposed with advantage to the coun-
try.. He didnot anticipate that much time would be lost by. ac-
ceding to hi imposition, because he believed the committee
might close tie): labours in a fortnight. His object in making
the present inigion was to render simple what before was mys-
terious, and economical what before was subject to profusion
and extravagance.

Lori ALTHORP said that he felt himself called upon to make
a see- observations in consequence of the motion which had just
bees made, and, first of all he could not help remarking that,
as the matter under discussion was one dependent upon plain
statements., he thought it was better fitted to be disposed of by
the house :han a select committee. He confessed that in many
of the-observations made by the honourable member for Shef-
field he fully concurred, and had no particular objections to the
plan of the conversion into terminable annuities. Many schemes
had been broached, and many attempts had been made of a
somewhat similar nature to that of the honourable member, but
they had siways been found, upon examination, to be wanting
in efficiency. They all appear very plausible in theory, but it
was a very great question whether they would be of advantage
in the enc. He thought- it would be better to increase the wealth
of the country, and thereby. to enable it to bear its burdens,
than to idopt the hon. member's plan, which would add
£18,000,000 a-year .to the existing charge upon the country.
The nchle lord concluded by observing that he did not think
it necessary to enter further into.the question, which he sup-
posed the lion. member had brought forward rather with the in-
tention o explaining his own views to the house, than in the
hope the: it would lead to any practical result.
Mr. H:IHE strongly condemned the present scheme of taxa-
tion, by chich he said that the working people were made to
contribue four-fifths of the revenue. A day labourer was taxed
to the exalt of 5U or 60 per cent., whilst a man worth £20,000
a year ass taxed only 15 per cent. A new system of taxation
must be adopted, by which property. acquired would be bur-
dened, aid industry struggling for existence relieved.
Colors' EVANS said he observed that, whenever graduated
taxationwas mentioned as applicable to the rich, the noble lord
talked went spoliation; but he never alluded to that when the
questiotwas a graduated tax acting in an inverse manner upon
the middle and poorer classes, as in the case of the house and
windowduties. (Hear.)
The louse then divided—
lor Mr. Buckingham's motion 38
.against it 57
Majority . • 19
IRISH TITHES.
Mr. 3ARRON rose to submit certain resolutions respecting
the title system in Ireland to the consideration of the house.
He would no: go beyond the spirit of the recommendations of
their ova conmittees, one of which declared that " for a series
of veais tithes had been the source of endless confusion and
bloodshed," and another which had recommended " a total
extincton of tithes" as the only efficient remedy which the
system admitted "of. (Hear.) All that he proposed was the
embodring these important suggestions in one definite proposi-
tion, vshichwould have the effect of allaying for ever the excite-
ment of the Irish mind in respect to tithes, by declaring that
tithes vere extinguished, and should never be re-enacted. At
present the Irish church property was a kind of close corpo-
ration, or•rather series of nominee boroughs, in the hands of
certain Protestant families; in throwing it open to the public
he exiected the support of those Reformers who took such
credit to themselves for extinguishing the civil nominee borough
excrescences of the state. He did wish to cut down the reward
of the working clergyman, far from it; his object was to adjust
remuneration to service, and not as at present, by paying a
clergynan who had done nothing, because, among other rea-
sons, le had no flock. In Scotland, calculating the sums paid,
and the numbers of the population, the amount received by the
clergy br the spiritual care of the population, was about ls.
per bead, while in Ireland every Protestant cost £l. 13s. 4d.
The retsedy for this was legislative interference, and to prove
that thi: was no novelty, and that ecclesiastical property might
be deal/with by Parliament, the hon. gentleman entered into
the hisory of the Irish church, and the various enactments for
its gos;rnance, from the time of Henry VIII. to Mr. Goul-
burn's .et in 182,4. In conclusion he assured the house that
their eticurrence in his resolutions would produce great good
in Ireltid, and serve to reconcile the people of that country to
the exitence for a time of the heavy burdens they were sub-
jected o. He then moved the following resolutions:-Ist.
That tie tithe system in Ireland has been the fruitful source of
miseryand crime, and should be totally extinguished. 2dly.
That alerts' tax ought to be substituted for payment of the
present incumbents, and for the support of the Protestant
establisment, and such other purposes of general utility as
the legilature may deem necessary.
Mr. lITTLETON did not think it necessary to enter into any
lengtheed reply to the observations of the lion. gentleman, for
althougl he would be the last person to object to any hon.
inembeibringing forward any measure for the removal of Irish
grievatcs, yet he could not but express his opinion that the
presentwas a most inconvenient opportunity for the introduc-
tion of hese resolutions. He would beg to ask whether any
one sutect had occupied so much of the time of the house as
this ver one of Irish tithes? He thought not; fur not only
had it seen discussed on the coercion bill most fully, but the
other tly upon the Church Temporalities Bill, when his noble
friend Lord Althorp) had given every opportunity to hon.
membes to make any proposition they thought proper, as well
as givesnotice subsequently of a resolution relative to its ap•
plicatit to lay impropriations. (Hear, hear.) There did,
therefoe, appear no necessity for the present motion at this
period'of the session. Far was he, however, from asserting
that upn some future occasion it might not be for the benefit
of the enpire at large that other measures should be introduced,
but he lust also say that in the next year we should be in a
better stuation to come to a calm judgment upon this topic, as
by Novoribernext the occupying tenants would be relieved
from allcontact with the tithe-owners, and all future leases
would eempt them immediately from the payment of tithes.
With repect to the qtfestion of tithes, he wished to say a few
words. He earnestly trusted that the Irish gentlemen would
not be i;disposed to make some sacrifice on this subject (hear,
hear) or it was only by the instrumentality of their aid that
the Brits!' Parliament could effect a satisfactory arrangement
of the question. If they were determined to oppose every mea-
sure, wlatever its nature might be, he would net say that in
such cas he despaired of seems' any satisfactory arrangement
come toibut he believed it could not be produced without much
confusics, and, he feared, the spilling of blood. (Hear, hear.)
But, whatever form the property of tithe might assume,—and
he admitsd that it was a fair question whether it should remain
as tithe,—that property mutt as such be maintained; for no indi-
viduals ha a right to that which belonged to the church, or, if not
to the church, belonged, as all men must admit, to the state.
(" Hear, hear," re-echoed from the opposition benches.) That
property Nes not the property of individuals, and the law which
protectet it must be asserted and maintained. (Hear, hear.)
The rigit lion. gentleman concluded by moving the previous
question.
Mr. F. O'Cotseon denied that the property of tithe stood on
the same foundation as other property. Ihe former was entirely
created Ls the law, but the latter was only protected by the law.
He could'not consent to give to the clergy the average of seven
years of very high prices, but he had no objection to the appli-
cation of a portion of the revenue derived from tithe to state
Purpesess kissehould like to sea tithe altogether abolished, and
a land tali' substituted. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. M. O'FEIIRALL said that the government had deceived
the people of Ireland by declaring that tithe should be extin-
guished. He expressed his objection to the bill passed last year
for the commutation of tithe. Its chief defect was that it made
commutation compulsory.
Mr. STANLEY thought there could be no objection to the first
resolutice, because every one agreed that the tithe system had
been a Nara source of crime and misery in Ireland. But the
questiorowas, whether the system as it now existed was ob-
noxious to this imputation? He thought that the resolution of
to-night was rendered totally unnecessary by the alteration
which it was now proposed to make in the measure introduced
during tie present session by his Majesty's ministers. (Loud
cries of Hear.") He would not enter at all at present into
the last sart of the hon. gentleman's resolution, and for this
reason, teat the discussion on it, though repeatedly taken dur-
ing the interminable debates on the subject of Irish tithes, had
better bc reserved to a more fitting opportunity. Ile contended
that thehouse ought not to divert the property of the church of
Ireland away from that church until they saw that the purposes
of the Church were fully answered. (Cries of " Hear," from
Mr. O'Cmnell and the Irish members in his immediate vicinity)
The object of the Irish Church Reform Bill was to produce a
better aid more equitable division of the revenues of that church
among tae ministers of it. (Hear, hear.) The distribution of
the surplus, if surplus there should be, was still left open for
the con4deration of Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Upon that
subject se had his own opinions; what those opinions were he
would not-state at present; all he would say was that the sub-
ject was still an open subject. He cordially agreed with his
right hat- friend the Secretary for Ireland in saying that he
should vote for the previous question, because he thought that
in continuing the present discussion they were raising not
merely ett irrelevant and useless debate, but also one that was
absolutey mischievous and injurious to the tranquillity and all
the best nterests of Ireland. (Loud cheering from nearly every
part of tae house.)
Mr, aCoNeteee said that lie saw in the speech of the right
hon. gertleman who had just sat down the same unrelenting
disposition towards Ireland, the same inflexible determination
not to concede anything to his unfortunate country, which had
always Sitherto distinguished the right hon. gentleman. He
hoped that iu consequence of that speech the government
wouldinfuture exiilude the right hon. gentleman from all inter-
ference la the affairs of Ireland. (Cheers from the Irish mem-
bers nee! Mr. O'Connell, echoed back derisively from all parts
of the 'Ruse, and particularly from the ministerial benches.)
Ireland vas not a colony, or a province—it was an integral part
of the erspire; and he therefore trusted that the right hon. Se-
cretary Dr Ireland would take his department into his own im-
mediate teeping, and would not give it up to the management
of the right hon. Secretary for the Colonies. (hear.) He
could no; help admiring the wonderful special pleading of the
Colonial Secretary. The Colonial Secretary had not, he said,
used the term "extinction of tithes" in its ordinary significa-
tion—no. he had qualified it; he had spoken only of the " ex-
tinction of the tithe system." What had the late right hon.
Secretars for Ireland done for tint unhappy country ? Nothing,
or worsethan nothing. He had inteodueed two bills on the