The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-09 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

such should be the case. The principle of their constitution
was bad, and he could himself show it had been faulty in prac-
tice. His brother only spoke as to the principle, and in his re-
marks upon this he most fully and cordially agreed.
Mr. Wright remarked Mr. Ewart was wrong in stating his
brother only /spoke to the principle of the constitution of
corporate body—he did not say such and such things might
happen, but he gave the assertions complained of, as facts having
already taken place.
The Town-Clerk stated that the fault he found with Mr. Ew-
art's speech was that it was not warranted by the statements in
the petition he was presenting to the house. That petition was
for an alteration in the dock trust, and for that object alone.
It was the result of the meeting of rate-payers to the dock es-
tate, which, the Council would remember, was held in the Cot-
ton Sale-room, after the appointment of Mr. C. Bourne to the
office of solicitor to the dock trust. The petition contained no
allegation whatever against the management of the corporation
estate; not one word about their abuse of church patronage,
nor any other of the charges brought forward by Mr. Ewart
against the Common Council. It complained of the manage-
ment of the dock estate, and the preponderating influence of
the corporation members of the dock conimittee. It stated
complaints of the sale of lands from the corporation to the dock
estate, (which, the Council would remember, were always msttde
by the verdict of a jury,) and not, as Mr. Ewart stated, of the
improper sale of lands to individual members of the Common
Council. In short Mr. Ewart had taken advantage of this pe-
tition to introduce topics in no sort or manner connected with
it. or justified by its contents. He (M r. Foster) always before this
believed that when a member presented a petition he stated the
contents of it correctly, but it would now be seen that a member
could on presenting a petition for one specific object only, repre-
sent a totally different case to the House and the public, and he
was sorry to say that he had heard such conduct applauded, and
that Mr. Ewart was to be praised because, having' no other
opportunity to express his sentiments regarding the Corporation,
he had cleverly taken hold of this petition, and turned it to
meet his purpose.
Mr. Bailiff Aspinall said thatwith reference to what had been
stated by Mr. Alderman Wright, as to his remark at the last
special Council upon the Rev. Mr. Bold, he had to observe-he'
was UNDER A DELUSION at the time, for he then thought.that
Mr. Bold was a relation of Mr. liwart's,• which he now found
was IRA the case.
The Council then dissolved.

POOR LAWS IN IRELAND.

Yesterday a most respectable meeting, comprising the clergy,
magistrates, merchants, bankers, and a large assemblage of gen-
tlemen, was held, pursuant to a requisition, at the Sessions'-house,
CHARLES HORSFALL, Esq., IllayoF'Of Liverpool, in the chair;
who opened the business of the day.by stating, that he had called
the meeting (in consequence of the requisition which had been
presented to him, si names
in by some of the most respectable
in this great borough,) to take into consideration 'the•propriety
of petitioning parliament to introduce a modified systein.of poor,
laws into Ireland. • No. gentleman who had, given any-:attention
to the subject would hesitate to admit that the present comli-;
lion of that chuntry loudly called' for this .ineaspre, which he
had no doubt would be productive of the happiest results re-
storing peace and tranquillity in that distracted country.
(Cheers.)
. . .

• The'requisition having been read by the Town Clerk,
Mr. W. W. CURRIE rose to propose the first resolution, and
said that the present was an occasion when all the friends of
humanity were called upon to succour the distresses of Ireland.
(Cheers.) If there was any
.one place more than another
fected by the want of a provision for the poor in Ireland, it was
Liverpool, which was so intimately connected with that coun-
try • and nothing but a strong and then conviction of its neces-
sity,,
would have-induced him to give an opinion on a subject on
which the wise and the humane had differed. The poor laws
had their origin in the necessity of succouring the aged and the.
helpless, but they had been so grossly abused that many were
of opinion that it would have been better to leave the necessi-
tous to the. hand of private charity. In this opinion he could
not concur. (Cheers.) The redundant population of Ireland
required some measure having a tendency to•create in them
habits of industry, and a respect for the laws ; and, in the ab-
sence of any provision, the relief of a poor law was loudly called
for in that country where no poor saws existed. Going into
this question would also tend to produce a conciliation that no
other measure would effect. While he advocated the introduc-
tion of these laws, he should 'strenuously insist upon its con-
taining some provisions for the empllment of the population
of Ireland, for which there was at present no adequate employ--
meat. He thought that they would not be doing their duty,
although he deprecated rash legislation on any subject, if they
did not respecttullY urge the consideration of this subject on the
legislature, as one that was mast likely to improve the condi-
tion of Ireland, and concluded by moving the first resolution.—
(See Advert.)
Mr. Jas. ISOURNE seconded the resolution, and expressed his '
sati,faction at seeing the extreme suffering and uistress that pre-
vailed in Ireland brought under their consideration.
Mr. 'TAYLOR had nothing to say- in opposition, but rose to
support the resolution, although he thought that Mr. Currie had.
rather too strongly stated the abuses of the poor laws in Eng.:
land, although there might have been great malversations of
those laws, still, as a whole, they had been a great blessing to
the country at large. (Cheers.) For ages we had been pro-
tected from the hands of lawless violence ; every man's house
was his castle, and Our streets were undisturbed; all this was
the result of a comphlsory provision that did not leave the poor
man to the horrors of destitution. Notwithstanding the evils
that attended the poor laws, it was their duty to recommend the
adoption of them in Ireland, and the good part of any institu-
tiou was not to be rejected, because it might, by possibility, be
abused. In Ireland they had no poor laws, in England they
-had existed for a long time, and in the one country peace and
prosperi:y had gone hand in hand, and in the other disorder and
confusion had prevailed. Ile knew of no country that had not
a provision of some kind or another for its poor, either by the
means of convents, or some other charitable institutions, and
he was persuaded, that the poor laws of England, notwithstand-
ing all that had been said against them, were a great blessing
to the country. The resolution was then put and carried.
Mr. JAMIESON said that the gentlemen who had been instru-
mental us assembling the meeting, had done him the honour to
desire he would propose the next resolution, thinking that his
residence for some years in Ireland, had afforded him opportu-
nities of possessing information upon the subject. He yielded
willingly to the request, because he had always thought that
where a subject of public concern becomes matter of public
discussion, it is the duty of every man to aid if in his power the
general deliberation. Feeling that no one was exempt front the
obligatioa, no matter how humble his station or still more hum-
ble his ability, he was manifesting his sense of this duty in a
case in which of all others the magnitude of the subject and the
weakness of the speaker would excuse a departure from it.
He insisted on the excellence of the principle of poor laws as
according with the precepts and spirit of Christianity. Every
feeling humanity, every sympathy of our nature, forbids,
that any human being should he allowed to perish for waut.of
food, orbe left helpless and unaided the victim of infirmity and
disease. It was unnecessary to dwell upon the policy and ex-
iency of these laws as sustaining the price of labour. Where
there was no legal provision for the poor, a redundant supply
of labour influenced Wages in the same proportion inversely as
a scarcity in the supply of grain, or other prime necessary of
life operated on price. But if poor laws existed the effect was
the, same as that of an excessive supply of any ordinary
commodity upon the market price. (Hear, hear.) There
was then
,the positive justice of the claim of the poor.
The frame of all society was conventional; and upon the clear-
est principles every man willing to work, but unable to procure
it, was entitled to a subsistence. The observations made by the
last speaker, as to the benefits which poor laws had been to
England, was fully confirmed by the very remarkable fact, that
since the time of their enactment up to the present moment,
although there had been numerous instances of abuse and mal-
administration, and though the assessment had been grievous
and unequal, vet there had never been a single petition to either
house of parliament for their repeal. Mr. Jamieson then re-
ferred to the state of Ireland, and . contended, that so far from
the formidable objections which were alleged to exist against
extending poor laws to that country, it was' the very measure
which, more than any other, would confer the mostimportant
benefits upon the Irish people. The evils of Ireland, the out..
rages which disgraced, and the suffering endured by the pea-
santry, were chiefly owing to the bad system observed in the
letting of land—the destitution of the unhappy peasantry -was
greater than could be described, and chiefly owing to absen-
teeism, or rather to the conduct of the absentee proprietors, for
there was one in particular, the Duke of Devonshire, who had •
an income of £60,000 to £70,000 a-vear in the south of Ireland,
and no country in the world could furnish a better or more re-
spectable tenantry. It was proved before a.committee of par-
liament, that no tenant upon his. Grace's estates had ever been
implicated in any lawless disturbance, or, in seasons of distress,
had been a recipient of public bounty. The Duke of Devon-
shire was indeed a most beneficent landlord, but he was the ex-
ception, not. the rule. In the county of Limerick there was a
parish owned by an absentee peer, and in the year 1822 of
three hundred freeholders, tenants of his lordship and entitled
to vote, over two hundred and fifty .of them had been re,
turned by the Protestant and Roman Catholic •clergy as
being its imminent danger of perishing of hunger, . It was alt

most unnecessary to add, that this. noble individual was a con-
spicuous and determined opponent of poor laws. (Cries of
" hear, hear," and " name." " Lord Limerick.") The scene
of human misery which ensued from clearing a farm in Ireland
was heartrending. in the extreme.' The wretched hovel un-
roofed; the starving inmates thrown upon the road-side, with-
out food, shelter, or home. Alas ! for them there was no home.
(Hear, hear.) Was it strange, then, that there should be out-
rao•es ? It was a struggle for existence. Mr. Jamieson next
reterred to a 'poor law as affording • relief merely to the sick,
aged, and impotent. Ile woutd.never be a party to such a half
measure. On the score of humanity, was not the able-bodied
man, unable to procure-employment, and with the keen sense
of hunger, a more pitiable object than the confirmed invalid ?
How long would the able-bodied man, destitute of food, be
saved from' disease? Was it not wise, by a little provident
succour, to prevent his becoming incurably helpless, and per-
manently burdensome. (Hear, hear, hear.) But it was not
upon these grounds that he chiefly relied. Any. system of
poor laws extended to Irelaird would want the main feature of
utility, unless they gave a right to subsistence, for by no other
means could. the interest of landlord and tenant be identified.—
(Applause.) The various projects for bettering Ireland were
idle and ridiculous. Employment by means of public works was
spoken of; but hoiv could a temporary expedient or stimulus cor-
rect a seated and permanent evil ? And as to ernigratfon, it
Might be important to remind the meeting, that the district of
Ireland, from which the starving peasantry chiefly flocked to
this country, was actually more thinly inhabited than many parts
of North America. It was preposterous' to say that Ivor laws
could not be administered in Ireland. It. was not for a public
meeting to go into details, but if Ireland possessed (as was un-
deniably the fact) the two great elements of wealth—land and
labour, the one fallow, the other unemployed, surely it was for
an enlightened legislature to* enact such a measure as would
combine both, and
.give to the lanouring poor a subsistence.—
Mr. Jamiesouthen insisted on the necessity of assimiL2ting.the
law in the two countries; not only as proLctive of the English
labourer, but as giving the Irish people an interest in the obser-
vance of the laws. It was the absence of a legal provision for
the poor of Ireland, that made a willing ear be given to the agi-
tator and imendiary—to him who would prompt to crime and
outrage. The Irish peasant 'is in a situation to adopt the des.
perate advice of Romeo to the ATothccary

" Art thou so bare and full of wretchednes,
And fear'st to die ? Famine is on the cheeks :
Need and onpression stareth in thine eyes :
Upon thy back hangs raged misery :
The world is not thy friend,-nor the world's law,
The world affords no law to make thee rich ;
Then be not poor, but break it

There was an immeasurable interval between the rich and the
poor in Ireland; the higher classes stood upon an eminence,
but it was not the
.pinnacle, of happiness and security; it was
the brink of a precipice. He entreated the meeting to adopt the
measure proposed, as essential to the peace, welfare, and happi-
ness of the Irish people. (Hear, hear.) He then moved the
2nd resolution..

Mr, Alden:inn WRIGHT, in rising to second this resolution,
felt it quite unnecessary to trespass long on the notice of the
meeting, particularly alter the very eloquent and feelbsy man-
Ler in which it had been brought forward by his friend Mr.
Jamieson. Ile would not, however, let this opportunity, pass,
without expressing his intire concurrence in the necessity of a
modified- system of Poor Laws for Ireland; being perfectly
convinced that it was the'only means of destroying that other
great curse to prosperity—absenteeism, andhe feared not, but
it :Would cause the rich landowner to remain on his estate, and
there expend the money, which is now too cnten siit‘i,lered in
foreign lands.—Another misery, will, by this ii.eaes be re-
moved—a misery that he and every magistrate who has sat in
this building have too often witnessed. lie meant the fact of
the old and poor Irishmenswho, after a Inng life of hard labour
in this country; his strength gone from age, and of course, no
means left of procuring a livelihood, is on the very verge of
his 'existence, passed off, to die in that country, where no prtss
vision is made for his infirmities.—Under these circumstances
he most heartily seconded the resolution. (Much cheering.)
Mr. VIGNOLES had, as one of the Government Engineers in
Ireland, seen much of that country, and considered tLat the sole
cause of the sufferings of. the Irish, was the conduct of the su- '
perior towards the lower classes of that community. One of
thc benefits of the poor laws in England was, that if compelled
the •rich-to find employment for the poor. The improvements
of public roads had generally arisen from parishes and towns
taking up these works for the sake of employing the poor, and
it was very common for gentlemen to implove and ornament
their domains for dm same object. (Cheers.) In Ireland a
magnificent palace was frequently approached by avenues that
would disgrace St. Giles's. In England, females were frequent-
ly found associating together for the purpose of improving cot-
tage economy and. extending...the . blessings of civilization.
(cheers.) Ile had lately travelled through Ireland, and had
observed that wherever the landlord cousu!tel the happiness
and good of his tenants, there he saw the tenants quiet and or-
derly ; and were a contiary line of conduct was pursued, there
he also saw the reverse. (Loud cheers.) A single guinea was
frequently taken by a gentleman, from a poor man, for permis-
sion to build a hovel near his gate, and twenty or thirty guineas
were frequently so obtained. • In 'illustration of the good feel-
irig that kind treatment created, a relation of his (Mr. V.) held
a rectory in the comity of Kilkenny, we understood, who ex-
pended his income in improving his estate by draining bogs and
bettering its condition—on
.this estate the tithes were voiunta-
rily paid by the. poorest man in the parish. (Cheers and liver!)
There could be no doubt that until the rich were compe.lcd to
provide for or find employment for the poor, he was convinced
that there was no other mods, of tranquillizing Ireland. .
Dr. Coat:Nis,- in a speech of considerable force, supported the
resolution, and in the course of his speech said, that there was
nothing in existence that was not liable to abuse, and God for-
bid (said this gentleman) that because an abuse had or might
exist in the poor laws, that they should on that account be re-
fused to Ireland. (Loud cheering.) •
Mr. GALE (an Irish gentleman) came forward, although be
was not an inhabitant of Liverpool, to give the proceedings his
support. He had resided in Ireland, and he found that it was
in vain: for him to relieve the distresses of the people ou his own
estate, WhoM he frequently saw without a rag to cover them,
unless the system 'was generally adopted. The persons most
affected Would be the great landed proprietors • all the agita-
tion that had prevailed in Queen's County and' the adjacent
connties had occurred on the estates of absentee proprietors.
In advocating the introduction of a system of poor laws, he
should be sorry to see the burden, thrown upon the resident far-
mers, but should prefer seeing it imposed on real property. The
small farmers were rising by stow degrees. atd he should regret
seeing them thrown back to the state of the poor cotter. The
resolution was then put and carried.
- Mr. T. B. Houssann said, he felt somewhat reluctant to
move the resolution, which had been placed in his hand, from
the circumstance of his not having given the subject of the
present meeting that consideration which its importance de-
manded. Ile had, however, given it sufficient consideration to
make him differ from the gentleman who had last addressed
thp meeting. He did not agree with hint, that we were bound
to look up.cm the question entirely as au Irish question—for
whilst he would ycild to no man in ardent attachment to the
Irish people—he yet felt, that as Brawls, we were bound also
to look at the question, as it bore upon the interests of Eng-
land. (Cheers.) In looking at the question as regarded
Ireland-.-sit had struck him as a singular fact, that whilst the
height of distress was raging amongst the Irish peasantry—
provisions to the amount of somemitlions of pounds value, had
been exported to this country. He envied not the feelings of
that man, who could sit revelling in wealth—with thousands of
acres of land lying dormant for want of cultivation, and yet
allow the surrounding peasantry to be destitute of woik—des-
titute of food—destitute of health and .strength, and almost
destitute of life. If (said Mr. H.) no sense of justiceno
feeling of humanity, could induce the Irish landlord to make
a provision for the poor of his country, it then ' became the
duty of-the British people, it became the duty of the British
Senate to endeavour to procure for them by law, what the
seered conscience of humanity had refused to give. (Cheers.)
In looking at the question generally, he had heard but of two
main objections to the establishment of Poor Laws.—The first
was, that they dried up the springs of private benevolence.—The
second, that they were an encouragement to idleness. He would
examine the force of the first objection by looking first to Eng-
land, where poor laws exist, and then to Ireland, where there
.were none.--Was there, he would ask, an appeal ever made to
British hearts, which was not readily responded to? Were
our manufacturers distressed—and were they not relieved ?
Were infirmaries or hospitals wanted—and were they not pro-
vided? Where societies established for visiting the sick, and
wire they not supported ?—And last, though not the least fea-
ture in the case, was Ireland distressed, and was England back-
ward to relieve her ? (Cheers) I I e would now turn to Ireland,
where no such laws exist. It was a fact that, with some honour •
able exceptions, appeal after appeal was made in vain to the
rich and to the noble of that land—their poor flock to this coun-
try for Snpport —Their hospitals—their religious societies, and
even their very clergy were.at this moment almoners on the
bounty of England, (Cheers.) He trusted they should hear
no more of poor laws drying up the springs of private benevo-
lence. The second objection was, that poor laws were au en-
couragement to idleness. He did not doulif that poor laws im-
properly adminiStered would be so ;—but it was impossible that
poor laws properly administered could be so. The first step to
~he. taken after providing some temporary relief for the sick

rand aged, must be, as had been already suggested, to find
employment for those who'were able and willing to work. The
infirm, he was sure, would soon cease to need relief; for the
heart of an Isish peasant was like the heart of a British sailors
—he would share his last shilling with his relative, his comrade,
or his friend. It was the utter destitution of work, combined
with the utter destitution of religious principle, which Was the
greatest curse of Ireland;—it was this which was the cause of
those dreadful scenes of anarchy and confusion which were
overwhelming the land, and it was this, which if not speedily
remedied, would be the curse of England, and the ruin of Ire.
land, (Cheers.) One word with regard to the interests
England and he had done. It was a fact, that so long as poor
laws exist in England and none in Ireland, that an actual pre-
mium was held out to the Irish paupers to flock to England- for
support. It might speak well for the bounty of England, but
he would ask was it just,—was it honest towards the mdustrioul
classes in this country that they should be taxed not only far
support of their own, but of the Irish poor likewise. (Cheers.)
He would not trespass further on the attention of the meeting,
amongst whom he felt there was an unanimous feeling in call-
ing upon the legislature of the country to give this subject their
earnest and most attentive consideration. (Cheers.) Mr.
Horsfall then read the third resolution.
Mr. S iruPirEan, seconded the resolution although he disa-
greed with the Mover in some parts of it. As an Irish land-
lor he did not think that the whole blame was attributable to the
landlords. An Irish landlord frequently let an- estate of 100
acres, which was divided.into smaller lots by hiateuant. During
the continuance of the forty-shilling freehold system, the subdi-
vision of land had been carried to i great extent for the pur-
pose of increasingparliamentary influence. In introducing poor
laws into Ireland he thought that they would do sufficient if
they adopted that part of, the statute which provided for the im-
potent and aged liar tof the poor. Such was the characteristic
benevolence of the Irish peasant, that he would share his last
potatoe with any passing stranger who might enter his cabin and
claim his hospdallty. After some other observations Mr. S.
concluded by strongly recommending the adoption of the reso-
lution. (Cheers.)
Lieutenant Moitalsow said, that land was always in great
demand in Ireland, that landlords were .never at a loss for
tenants, and he wanted to know how it was that the Jandloids
did not prevent this sub-letting, which had been so much
complained of? •

Mar. GALE (in explanation) said, that the leaseX frequently
contained a clause forbidding any under-letting, but that after
it had been done, contrary to his knowledge or consent, the
landlord out oT humanity cad not reject the under tenant, as he
had a clear legal right to do. •
Mr. MORRISON (in continuation) said, that there might be
exceptions, bukstill it was clear that they did not generally act
upon the rule. He was convinced that there was not a per-
son in the town of Liveipool who would consent to- suspend
the poor laws in Lancashire, even for one year; were it done
he would not undertake to underwrite policies on the ships that
Were now safely floating in their docks. • The poor laws might
be liable to abuse but they were productive of a general good
to the community. (Cheers.) ThiS resolution was then car-
ried unanimow ly.

Mr. Alderman CASE had been requested to move a resolution,
and as a magistrate of the' town he thought it his duty. te.attend
for the purpose of doing so. He could see no coed reason why
Ireland-and' England should not be govei ued by the' same sys-
tem as to theprinciple of a poor law. They did not wish to in-
troduce poor laws into Ireland, burthened•with the abuses that
crept into the administration of them in England. 'The uses of
the poor laws might be separated farm those abuses. The
worthy Alderman,'after some other observations to the same
effect, concluded by moving the fourth res,oution, which was
seconded by Mr. Alderman Porter. The resolution having
been carried, Mr. Alderman Writ lit moved that Mr. Bonnie
do take the chair, which was
.also carried. Mr. Heyworth
moved a resolution of thanks to the Mayor, (which was carried
by acclamation, amidst the loud cheers of the meeting). His
Worship expressed himself highly gratified and flattered by
the compliment paid him by his fellow-townsmen.