The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-02-20 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-TUESDAY.

Lord J. RUSSELL rose, amidst loud cheers from the
opposition benches, to move a committee of the whole
house to take into consideration the present state of Ire-
land. Notwithstanding the fallacious return which had
been made, was it not a notorious fact that Ireland was
now filled with armed troops. (Hear, hear.) Barracks
were fortified. (Hear, hear.) And only on that day they
were informed that a regiment of soldiers had been drawn
up in front of the Lord Lieutenant's house in the Nee-
nix Park. (Hear, hear.) It seemed as if her Majesty's
Government were afraid of a civil war. (Cries of " Hear,
hear.") Ireland, it was true, was occupied, but it was
not governed. It was notorious that at the present day
the Government of Ireland was a Government of force.
(Hear.) The noble lord then alluded to the various state-
ments which had been made respecting the state of that
country, and contended that inquiry was absolutely ne-
cessary. Alluding to Mr. O'Connell, his lordship said
—the man who had taken the greatest interest in the
welfare of Ireland had been found guilty. He did not
see anything in that fact to guarantee the safety and
.
of that country. (Hear, hear.) Ireland coe.",, not be
governed by such means. He nad been led to investigate
the whole of the circumstances in relation with Ireland
since the time of the Union. He would take it for
granted that all who heard him were anxious to maintain
the Imperial Parliament, but then he must inquire whether
all the engagements made with Ireland at the time of the
union had Itten fulfilled ? If they had not, he must call
upon the House to go with him into committee, to make
a full and searching inquiry 'ern the subject. (Hear.) The
noble lord then adverted to addresses presented to George
111., relating to the anion of England and Ireland.
(Hear, hear.) He wished that every benefit which the
British Constitution gave should be exiended to Ireland;
that there should be equal rights and equal liberties—
(hear);—but that unfortunately he could not consider to
be the case. After some further remarks the noble lord
said his first complaint was, that up to the year 1830,
from the period of the union, there had been noimpar-
tiality in the administration of justice. The Irish had
not had the benefit of equal justice with the people of this
country, and that was his first objection. (Hear.) The
next question was that relating to the franchise. (Hear.)
Lord Morpeth, when secretary of Ireland, was anxious
to extend the franchise, and no minister ever had the in-
terests of that country more at heart than,his noble friend,
but every attempt to extend the franchise had been inva-
riably opposed. The noble lord then referred to the pas-
sing of the Catholic Relief Bill, the objects of which he
contended would have been virtually defeated if the pre-
sent administration had been in office since the time of
its passing into a law. (Hear, hear.) Ministers said
they had measures to bring forward on the state of Ire-
land ; but after considering their past policy, he had nu
faith in them. (Hear.) He therefore asked the House
to go into committee, and fully inquire into the whole
state of Ireland. He considered Roman Catholics ought
to have a fair share of patronage, and they ought not to be
passed by when offices become vacant. The noble lord
proceeded to advert at great length, and in warm terms,
to the repeal meetings, the state trials, the constitution
of the jury, which he said would deprive the proceeding
of the effect of a genuine trial, as the Irish people would
consider the jury a packed one. He concluded his pro-
tracted address by tecommending a conciliatory policy
towards Ireland, and the application of the ecclesiastical
endowments to the religious education of all classes.
Mr. Wyse seconded the motion.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM observed upon the error of sup-
posing that the repeal meetings had begun only since the
accession of the present government ; and enumerated
the various repeal meetings in 1840 and 1841, each
amounting to 60,000, two to 100,000, and one, at Kilken-
ny, to 200,000. At several of these meetings Mr. O'Con-
nell's addresses had gone quite as far as at any of the
meetings at the time of the present ministry. The power
of common jurors was one which must exist, and be ex-
ercised by the Crown, or justice could not be obtained.
With respect to the strike of the Roman Catholics from
the jury, he greatly regretted that a body whom he so
much respected as the English Roman Catholics should
have treated this as an affront to their religion, when,
in truth, the objections were only political. The object
of the government had been not to get a single conviction,
or to get convictions upon single speeches or paragraphs,
but to get the whole case before the public, and to convict
those who constituted the head and front of the offence;
and this object had been obtained under the direction of
an unanimous bench. He next came to the circumstan-
ces of the proclamation of the 29th of September. The
announcement of the Clontarf meeting had been full of
military phrases, which was a new feature. The noble
lord said that the Government occupied Ireland by mili-
tary force. Certainly, because an intent had been dis-
played of wresting Ireland from this country by Physical
force. All that had been proposed on the subject of ten-
ure was comprised in the scope of the commission already
issued. On the subject of education, it was intervied to
propose in the estimates an additional grant. With re-
spect to the elective franchise, he explained the way in
which the number of electors in the Irish counties had
diminished, and stated that the proposed increase of that
number was intended by way of compensation for the
degree so occasioned. Then there was the great subject
of religion, and the noble lord would be satisfied with
nothing but equality. It must be a postponed equality
however; for the noble lord admitted that the life interests
of the existing Protestant clergy were to be respected.
But, in truth, lie would consent to no inroads on the
Protestant Church ; the State had made its choice at the
time of the Reformation, and that choice would not, he
believed, be rescinded by the attacks of the conspirators
at the Conciliation-hall. He concluded by calling on the
House to negative the motion by a decisive majority.
Th. a.h.t. was Men “ajuurned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-WEDNESDAY.

Mr. L. BRUGES took the oaths and his seat for the bo-
rough of Devizes. _ _

Lord G. SOMERSET brought up the report of the Com-
mittee of Elections, and stated that the Committee had
appointed the 4th of March to try the petitions against
the returns for Durham and Athlone.

Mr. JAMES WORTLEY moved the second reading of a
bill to discontinue, and for the future to prevent, certain
actions on the statutes against gaming. He shortly stated
the history of the law on this subject, and explained the
object of the present bill, which was to protect several
defendants who had been sued for penalties on account of
racing bets, which had been laid by them without the
least conception that they were liable to these conse-
quences under an obsolete act of Queen Anne. So little
did lawyers in general consider betting on a horse-race to
be illegal, that of late years there had been a lottery for
the Derby among the bar at Westminster. No man read-
ing that act by itself, would have imagined that there
could be any illegality in such betting. The sums now
sought against some individuals were of very large
amount ; in one instance no less than £BO,OOO, and in all
near half a million. Two persons had got up those ac-
tions—Charles Russell, an informer, and James Russell,
an attorney ; and so little good faith had been shown in
this affair, that the attorney had contrived to get an opi-
nion from an eminent counsel as to the probable strength
of the defence, by calling upon him and representing him-
self as attorney for one of the defendants ! Such a per-
son could not be actuated by any zeal for public morality ;
his object could only be his own lucre; and accordingly
he had brought no actions against any but those who
could pay well. The fault was in some measure with the
legislature itself, which had left the law on this subject in
a state so disgracefully confused, that even a lawyer could
not, without the utmost difficulty, extract the result of its
meaning.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL explained that this bill did
not preclude fresh actions after three months, so that it
was in truth but a suspension, and the word suspend
might easily be introduced in committee. He would not
now go into the cases of hardships on the poor under other
obsolete acts, but he would gladly assist the honourable
member for Manchester to amend any legislation, obso-
lete or not, that inflicted hardship on the poor. Where
actions were brought for penalties under acts which had
slept or been misunderstood, it had become a principle of
legislation to relieve the defendants. There were great
doubts and the opinions of great lawyers were much di-
vided on the question, whether these bets were illegal or
not. His own opinion inclined to a concurrence with -an
argument used by Colonel Peel, that as betting per se was
not illegal, and as horse racing per se was not illegal,
betting on a horse-race could not be illegal. But would
the house wish that people should be forced to risk
£500,000 on a doubtful question of law?
Mr. CRAVEN BERKELEY supported the bill. He in-
tended, if it should go into committee, to propose some
extensions in favour of the sports of the poor.
The house divided—
For the second reading
Against it ..
—B7
The adjourned debate on Ireland was then resumed,
and after Lord Leveson. Mr. B. Cochrane, Lord Cle-
ments, and Mr. Young had spoken,
Sir. G. GREY said, whatever difference of opinion might
exist on some of the topics which had been introduced
into this debate—he thought there was one point on
which the house was agreed—he meant the importance of
the crisis at which the motion of his noble friend was sub-
mitted to the consideration of the house. It had not been
denied by the right hon. baronet the Secretary of State,
or by any hon. gentleman who had addressed the house in
the debate, that wide-spread excitement and disaffection
existed amongst the great bulk of the population in Ire-
land. It had not been denied that Ireland was at that
moment held by military occupation—(hear, hear) ;—and
indeed, if any difference of opinion existed on that point,
he should think the question had been settled by the right
hon. baronet the Secretary of State for the Home De-
partment, who had stated distinctly and in emphatic
terms, that such was the risk in that portion of her Ma-
jesty's dominions—such the emergency of affairs there,
that a military occupation was rendered necessary, to
Prevent the attempt to wrest that country by force from
the authority of the British crown. Under those circuna-
cumstances, his noble friend moved, not for a committee
to inquire into the state of the country, but adopted the
constitutional mode of asking the house to resolve itself
into a committee of the whole house, in which the state of
Ireland might be fully considered; and in taking that step
his noble friend declared to the house his opinion upon
the errors that had been committed by the present go-
vernment with respect to Irish affairs. It became the
house, before the motion was disposed of, to inquire on
what grounds the government invited them to reject the
motion. The hon. gentleman who had just sat down said
the loyal population of the country looked to the army for
safety. (Cheers.) As to the measure the government
contemplate—as to the course of policy they intended to
lay before the house, that was to be determined by others,
he (Sir G. Grey) however asked the house whether they
thought the policy the government intended pursuing, in
connexion with the policy hitherto pursued, was calcite ed
to gain the affections of the people of Ireland, h tf,ctions
which were alienated from the Imperial Parlia=r (it and
the government of the country—wb.etter, in flet, it was

calculated to detach one man from the ranks of the repeal
agitation ? (Cheers.) Ireland, it was admitted, was oc•
cupied by a military force. Within the last few
7,000 men had been added to the rank to—u)
ale
country, to say nothing of the naval force which had been
stationed off her shores. He would now address himsel
n io that
to the main points of Sir J. Graham's speech on the pre-
ceding night. As to the striking of the jury he admitted
that the Crown Solicitor could not have avoided what be
did. But what an inference did the state of the facts pre-
sent ? Why, that in a metropolis, where a large majori:4
of the people were Roman Catholics, not one Raman
Catholic could be found to act upon a jury—thel....is to say,
that the indictment was not against these articular tra-
versers, but against the whole Roman Catholic en Pry- people?
The right hon. gentleman ridie
the government antecede`on against
to the proclamation the Clontarf meetino
and congratulated cape from the them on their es-
uted the consultations. of
lays.
would now come to the principles of their fli-
p earful risk they had incurred by their de-
. .
—.re policy. The proposed enlargement of the franchise,
the appointment of the landlords' and tenants' commis-
sion, the proposed grant for education—all these were
commendable steps; but were they all adequate to this
great crisis? What hope had Sir J. Graham's speech
hold out of any redress to the great grievance endured by
Irish people in the exclusive establishment of the protes-
tant church? It was difficult, no doubt, to point out the
precise remedy ; but there was greater difficulty still it
leaving such a subject untouched. Insuperable difficul-
ties had been said to stand in the way of emancipation,
but they bad been overcome ; and so, by a vigorous co-
operation of the leading men on both sides in parliament,
might be solved the difficulties of the church question.
The Roman Catholics might be unreasonable in some of
their views; but we had to deal with men as we found
them ; and in truth the union could not be said to be an
equal one, when the English and Scotch majorities had
their church establishment, which was yet denied to the
majority of Ireland. What hopes could the Irish Catho-
lics entertain from the present ministry, when they re-
membered how its members had acted and spoken in op-
position—when their words, now smooth as oil, had been
sharper than swords? The difficulties they had now to
struggle with were the just retribution for the injustice
they had done to Ireland, when they made it the battle-
field for over-throwing the late administration.
Lord ELIOT, after stating that the force now in Ireland
was sufficient for the maintenance of tranquility, observed
that Sir G. Grey could hardly suppose the state of that
kingdom to be worse now than it was when he supported
the Coercion Bill of the whig party. Lord Eliot vindicated
the striking of the jury, and denied that an objection to
an individual on the score of his political or personal bias
was any imputation upon his integrity. He read a pas-
sage from the speech of the Irish Solicitor-General, illus-
trative of the law upon the subject of the repeal meetings,
and an extract from the letter of a whig lord-lieutenant of
an Irish northern county to the Irish government, calling
for military protection ; and observed that the conduct of
the Protestants in the north was deserving of the highest
gratitude, for the obedience to the law, and for the firm
forbearance which it exhibited. He stated the particu-
lars of those consultations of government which Sir G.
Grey had so jocularly treated ; and assured the house that
the risk to which Sir G. Grey had alluded was not incur-
red at all, for that by day-break the whole of the ground
appointed for the Clontarf meeting was occupied by a
military force so overwhelming as to preclude every
chance of a conflict. The motion was for a committee of
the whole house, but nothing, except indeed an increase
of stipendiary magistrates, had been suggested as a re-
medy to be considered in that committee. The state of
the church had been canvassed, but no feasible mode of
dealing with it had been proposed. Indeed, it was clear
that nothing short of its utter subversion would satisfy
the agitators ; and that was a consummation to which he
was sure that parliament would not consent. He defended
the government against the charge of having, in their pro-
fessional promotions, unjustly slighted the Roman Ca-
tholic portion of the bar. He would not employ hyper-
bolical expressions' of attachment to Ireland, but he could
truly say, that it was an attachment which he had al-
ways felt, and which his official connexion with the coun-
try had strengthened.
The debate was adjourned at half-past twelve o'clock.

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.