The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-04-10 00:00:00

LONDON UNIVERSITY

• Lord Bum. onast, seeing a noble lora opnsite in his place,
wished to put to hint a question. on a sul:ject of considerable
importance. lie under'soiod from the • votes of the other house
that an address to the crown.had
.been carried, praying that a
charter tnigot be granted to the Loudon University undet cer,
lain restrictions as to the degrees to be there 'conferred. and
that an answer had been sent to that address,. stating that this
matter had been, as he was welt aware, Wore referred to the
Privy Council, unit that his majesty would cause the exainina-
tion by them. to be resumed, or the resiut of the proceedings
there to he laid before the other house of parliament. He wished
to know whether any further steps had been taken on the sub-
ject. lie asked this because, perhaps, the noble lorti might
not kno.v the state iu which the proceedings were.. Iu fact, the
matter h.ul been ful.y argued by counsel, and tone was taken
to consider the result, mid at the time of the disso:ution of
the late government he was in correspondence with a noble and
learned ftieud, the now Lord Chancellor, who with hint had
most attentively listened to the argaments on both sides upon
the course that was to be pursued. Ile himself had intended
to call the Privy Council toget 'ter upon the subject.
Lord llossLyN said that as )et no further step had been
taken iu consequence of the address. Ile was aware that the
case had been fully argued, and that it stoud over fur toe deci-
sion of the Privy Council.
Lord Vv I-lARNCLIFFE presented petitions from -Forfar and
another place in favour of a graut to the Scotch church.—
Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, TUESDAY.
The Speaker took the chair at ha;f-past three.
DROGHEDA lil.fie'rlON.
- .

Lord HOTHAM reported to the hou,e that the committee ap-
pointed to inquire into the Drogheda election had found Carew
O'Dwyer, Esq., not duly elected, and the election for that bo-
rough was accordingly void; but that the opposition to the pe-
tition against the return was neither frivolous nor vexatious. _

Mr. U. A. iELHAM preSeHiedetitiohs -from Lincoln and
Bditan, in favour;of the Islington Mai ket Bill.
The Marquis of CLIANDOS presented a petition from the farm-
ers and graziers of Buckinghamshire against the Islington Mar-
ket bill.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition from Hunt-
ingdon, against the increased duty on licenses; also, a petition
from
the debtors in the King's Bench Prison, praying that the
bill for the abolition of imprisonment fur dent might piss into a
law.

Mr. IlannY presented a petition from certain cler,ymen of
Bradf;ad, praying for a revision of the Factories' desolation
bill, and that the hours of children's labour ►n factories should
nut be extended beyond ten hours. Also a petition from H.
Lloyd, a catholic clergyman, praying for reform iu the Irish
Church.

Mr. J. OswALD presented a petition from the postmasters of
Glasgow against the tax ou post-homes ; a:so a petition from
the Chamber of Commerce of that city, for the repeal of the
duty on small stamp receipts; also a petition from the Common
Council of that city, in favour of the abolitiou of imprisonment
for debt bid. '
, .

Mr. C ItUTitKiis presented a peritioti from three -linuclreil
bankers, merchants, and others of [lull, complaining of the
precedence given in the bill for the abotitiou of imprisonment
for debt on bills and bonds over book-debts,. and expressing
their conviction that this measure would never give satisfaction
until these objections were removed.
Sir J. CAMPBELL said, that he had every reason to expect
that the clause in question would be omitted in the onntuittee,
and that book-debts would be put on the same footing as debts
on bills and bonds.

Mr: ill TT said that he could not support the petition, as his
feeling was, that the :ate solicitor-general was deserviug of the
warmest thanks of his country for this bill. (Hear, hear.) lie
was glad, however, to hear that what was considered objection-
able iu this bill was likely to be removed; and he trusted that
when the committee had concluded their labours, such a bill
would be preseutc.l to the house as would be entii ely satisfac-
tory to the country. (Hear, hear.)
CARRUTHERS then presented a petition from the trades-
peutle of Hull, expressing their convictiou, derived from expe-
rience, that no execution against the goods of cleutors would be
found to be an adequate substitute fur imprisonment for debt,
either as a satisfaciion of the claims of the creditor, or a punish-
ment of the debtor; and the petitioners concluded with praying
that iu any arrangement which -might be made, the house would
not do away with the Courts of Request at Ilult.
-Mr. STEWART MACKENZIE presented several petitions from
places in Scotland, for the exteusion of the church of Scotland.
The same hon. member also gave notice that on the 28th
May he should move the re-appointment of the corumittee on
the state of education in Scotland.
Dr. Bow kING presented a petition from the handlooin weavers
of Renfrew, complaining Of distress and low wages.
Mr. HANDLEY presented a petition from a place in Lincoln-
shire, against the ecclesiastical courts bill.
Mr. COMPTON presented petitions from Ringwood and Ford-
ingbriclge, against the increased duty on licenses.
Mr. Alderman THOMPsoN presented a similar petition from
Sunderland; also a petition grunt the solicituis of that town
against the ecclesiastical courts bill.
Sir M. W. ItIELLY presented a petition from an individual
for the reduction of the stamp-duty on life insurances.
Colonel EVANS presented t'so petitions from Westminster :or
the repeal of the window tax.
Mr. GROTE presented a similar petition from one of the wards
of the city of London.
Mr. BYNG gave notice that on Friday he would 'rinse for leave
to bring in a bill to explain certain plovisiuns of the turnpike
act relating to the toll upon dung.
Lord AIORPETH presented a petition front Sheffield, for plac-
ing book-debts upon the same footing as bills of exchange, in
the imprisonment for debt bill.

SMUGGLING CORN.

Mr. Csvi.uv said that an appeal had beep made to him
by the noble member for Devonshire to give way to the dis-
cussion of the resolution on the subject of the application
of surplus church revenue in Ireland. He hoped he snould be
the last to oppose any arrangement for the public convenience;
but, between the motion of which he had given notice (on the
subject of smuggling foreign grain) and that of the noble lord,
(J. Russell,) there were others fixed for this evening; and if he
consented to yield his privilege it could only be upon the under-
standing that other members shnilirly circumstanced would act
similarly. One point weighed with hun very materially, that if
he persevered, howevi r long or, however eloquent the specche*
might be upon his motion, they would attract but little atten-
tiou, when other matters so immediately and pe,ubarly intei-
Wing. were pending. (,f Lear. )

CHUHCH RATES.

DIVETT remarked that he could only consent to post-
pone his motion (for the extinction of churet-rates) with ex-
treme reluctance, as it had been upon the book since the com-
mencement of the, session. It was of the most essoitial import-
ance that the question should be settled as speedily as possible—
the more so as Easter was fast approaching, when these rates
were usually paid, and when the feeling of the countri was
strongly against them. Last year he had failed in his motion,
and he considered himself under no obligation to the noble lord
(J. Russell) and his then colleagues in office for any support or
assistance; he had, however, strong reasons fur thinking that
the right honourable baronet (Sir It. Peel) and the other mem-
bers of the present government were at least nut averse to a
settlement of the question. (Cries of "Order.") He begged
pardon: he was not about to discuss the subject, but 'met eV to
add hisdecided Opinion that his motion ought not to be delayed ;
he only consented to abandon it for the present in deference to
the opinion of others, and on the distinct understanding that the
same course would be adopted with regard to ail other notices
preceding that of the noble member fur Devonshire
The CriaNcticLou of the ExcuLQUER concurred in thinking
that the question ought to be disposed of at an early period.
The motion of the hon. member was for the total abolition of
church rates, and it would be desirable to fix an early day for
the discussion of it. He was sorry that the honourable member
had been cut short in the handsoine compliment. be was about
to pay to his Majesty's present government. (Cheers and
laughter.)
Mr. Divert' added, that if he had been allowed to proceed,
perhaps the right hon. baronet would not have been so well
pleased with the complitnent. He was most anxious to take an
early day, but reluctant to interrupt the regular progress of bu-
siness by submitting his motion as an amendment to an order
Of the day. He hoped that the right hon. baronet would facili-
tate-him to bringing forward the question of church rates on eu
early day.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was quite ready to do
his best to aid the hon. member on any Tuesday or Thursday.
(Laughter.)
Mr. Dtvarr subsequently fixed the 14th May fur his motion.
Sir JOHN HaNzaae agreed to postpone his motion, Which
(like that of Mr. Cayley) related to the illicit importation ot.
grain.
Mr. A. TREVOR relinquished his motion on the Culla of Pleas
of the comity palatine of Durham.

OUI RACKS IN ARMAGH.
Lord MANDEvir.r.s regretted that he could not follow the
example thus set, by deterring, to a future day his motiun-re-
spectino the outrages in Armagh iu October last.
Lord J. RUSSELL suggested that it alight stand for to-morrow.
The CHANCELLOR of the. EXcHEQUER remarked that it 'Would
be of little use for his noble friend to persevere, since if be did,
some other members, who bad conditionally given way, would
insist upon their right of precedence.
1)r. LusHINGI ON said that, considering the general feeling
of the house, it Would perhaps be impossible to bring oh the
motion; but it contained ebarges against the Earl of Gosford,
which, if true, ought to prevent him from retaining his situation
of lord lieutenant of the county of Armagh for a single hour.
On the part of that noble lord, he (Dr. Lushington) denied
those charges; and the house would be impressed with the ne
cessity of having the matter fully discussed on the earliest pos-
sible day, (Hear.) lle also submitted that it was a matter of
justice to the noble lord to give him priority, as the question
affected not only his lordship's character, but the peace and
good orderuf the country. (Hear.) „.
Lord Acts tisox hoped that if the accusation agains
relative,: which had been pending for some weeks, were post-
poned, it would not be deferred longer than tiil to-morrow.
Mr. CAYLLY urged the noble lord to give way to the general
sense of the house.
Lord M ANDKVILLS consented to defer his motion till to-
morrow.

Colonel VERNER postponed his motion for a copy of the report
of the investigation held at Portadowu on the 10th April, 1534.
Mr. SHAW postponed .his motion on the subject of the petition
from Mr. Thomas Baker.
Colonel Ev ANs postponed his motion for some returns from
the•office of 1;'oods and Forests; and relative to the clerks of
the Court of livquests of Westminster.

[nisi( cituricu.
Mr. BERN A L brought flp the report of the committee of the
whole house on the established church of Ireland. Before the
resolutions were read,
Mr. SiNcLatn said: I wish to know from 'the noble lord
whether it is his intention to move that the resolutions how
brought up be communicated tee the Ilmuse of Lords., That
house still constitutes a co ordinate branch of the legislature of
this country, and no measure can become LAW without its con-
currence. From the proceedings of that house with respect to
a similar question, we have reason to suppose that a proposition
tte leastt three
a
es
like that upon the table, whether preserved in the shape of a
bill or in any other form, would be rejected there by h
a
large a majority as that by which it %las carried here. (Cheers,l
Unless one hundred new peers were created for the ptirpore,
utt h
it e
apprehend it would be impossible to carry through
branches of the legislature any means for the diversion of a por-
tion of the ecelesiaVical revenues of the Church of Ireland to
secular purnoses. It is therefore right that the matter should
hrouglf tee an issue, that we may ascertain whether
House of Lords is prepared to assent to such a proceediog.
cannot conceive, whatever government may be in office, taut
would be prepared to recommend his Majesty its create a
hundred priers in order to carry into effect :a resolution regard-
ing an imaginary surplus.--4 call it imaginary; because lam
convinced that on inquiry it will turn out, like the Croker
mountains, to have no existence. Instead of a surplus, there
may be fund a deficiency ; for the number of clergymen in
Ireland, 1 contend, is inadequate to the duties they have to dis-
charge at least none of them can be dispensed with. I beg,
therefore, that the noble lord will inform me whether he means.
to communicate his resolution to the house of Lords?
Lord JOHN It ssErL.—The hon. member asks whether I
menu to communicate the resolution tar the House of Lords,
and he tells me that it is his opinion that it will not Ire adopted
there. My answer is, that Ino nut propose to communicate the
resolution to the House of Lords; but I do not participate iu

ltD.

the opinion_ he elite:tains that there is anything in the resolu-
tion, when presented in the shape of a legislative measure,
that will not pass the House of Lords. I fouud my oeitliou
upon the precedent which I queted.the Other day as to the course
the. other 'House of Parliament adopted upon a very great
question—a question which certainly disturbed and excited the
religious feeiing of the people of this kingdom more than any
ge her that I remember—l mead the question usually known by the
name of catholic emancipation. (Cheers.) In the year 1828,
after a resolution on that subject had been carried iu this house,
by a majority of six, it was determined to communicate it to
the House of Lords. It was there moved by the Marquis of
Lansdowne; , and. without recollecting the precise numbers on
each side, 1 believe it was rejected by a majority of forty votes.
That result would have induced one to think that no bill for ca-
tholic emancipation would be allowed to pass. History, how-
ever, informs us otherwise: it. inlet ms us that, in the following
'ear, a bill was proposed to the House of Lords, wWi had re-
ceived the' previous sanction of the ministersof the crqwn ;•and
the measure being recommended by the crown, it passed the
House cf Lords by a majority.of ninety or one :semitred votes.
(Cheers and laughter.) 'Therefore, with the leave of the hon.
member, 1 shall profit by that experience.' (Much cheering.) I
do not promise, in the first instance, to communicate the resolu-
tion; but I feel convinced that when- we have obtained the sanc-
tion of the crown to the proceeding of this house, the House of
Lords will nut refuse to pass a legislative ineatime which, in my
opinion, will promote the security of the church of Irelaud and
the peace of the whole empire. (Cheers.)
Tue resolutions were then read by the clerk; after the second
had been concluded,
Sir Register PEEL said, this, I apprehend, is the main reso-
Lion which we shall betalted upon to vote; it is, in fact, exactly
the same that was adopted last night. As there is no rational
ground to suppose that the charge from a committee where it
was carried, to the whole house where it is to be confirmed, will
mak.) any difference iu the view taken of the question, the noble
lord will not infer the slightest alteration of opinion in those who
resisted the resolution last night, if we do not think it neces-
sary to press the question to a division. (Hear.) The reason
why we do not is because the noble lord has given notice of
another motion, the purport of which, we have been informed,
will be that this house will not consent to any tithe bill of which
the principle of the resolution does not form a part. Upon
that I shall certainly take the sense of the house, understood-
ing that it precludes the necessity of wasting time upon the
resolution just read.
Lord JouN Ilussust then moved the following resolution:.—
"That it is the opinion of this house, that no measure upon the
subject of tithes in Ireland can lead to a satisfactory
and final adjustment which dues not embody the prin-
ciple contained in the foregoing resolution." The noble
lord, in referring. to the principles of the late government,
with reference to this question, said the principle on which
the late government were disposed to act was stated in a speech
he found, recorded as having been delivered by his noble friend,
(Lord Spencer,) who sat then on the other side of the house as
the leader of his majesty's government. It was this:--" Most
undoubtedly the government did think, and he was prepared, as
a member himself of the protestant church, to assert, that it
' would be most advantageous to the protestant religion in both
parts of the empire not to continue in Ireland that irritation
which was consequent upon the present distribution of church
property in that country. It was impossible for any man, who
• looked with reasonable feelings upon the present system of dis-
tribution, not to say that so large au appropriation of property
for the ministers of su comparatively small a part of the popula-
tion was calculated to diminish instead of increase the number
of protestants in that part of the realm, because it was manifest
that much dissatisfaction among the other sects was inevitable.
With respect to the right of interference, he could not conceive
on what grounds honourable gentlemen opposite, who were op-
posed to the government ou this occasion, but who had con-
ceded the right of parliament to deprive one corporation of a
portion of its property to confer it upon another, should urge
that the legislature had no right to apply the church revenues
to other purposes; he meant moral and religious purposes."
That was the statement of principle made by his noble friend at
the end of the last session, and that was the principle on which,
if he had continued a member of that government at the com-
mencement of the present year, he and those who acted with
him would have been prepared to proceed. tie did nut think that
any adjustment could be final which continued to leave 75 per
cent. of the great sinecure livines which existed in the south of
Ireland, or which kept alive those sources iif irritatiou and dis-
cord which arose from the circumstance of such large revenues
being applied to the exclusive beiiefit of the church, while the
moral and religious instruction of the greater part of the com-
munity was totally neglected.
Sir'llSNns 11A It DINGS opposed the resolution. With respect
to the resolution before the house, he wished to ascertain from
the noble lord what he considered to be a surplus? Would he
consider the surplus to be that which would exist after the clergy
had been paid whatever the legislature might deem it tit to afford
them ? or would lie adhere to the line of conduct which had been
laid. down when the noble lord the member for Not th Lancashire
(Lord Siaule.y) was a member of the government, and when the
church temporalities bill was introduced ? On that occasion
Earl Grey, the head of that government, stated iu distinct
terms that after the clergy had received that which was appoint-
ed for them under the proposed plan, there was to be a portion
of the revenues set apart fur the augmeutation of small livings,
the building of churches, and the building of glebe houses. Sir
Henry concluded by saying it would be impossible for auy go-
vernment entertaining the principles and the feelings of honour
which the present government entertained, to carry into effect
a measure which had engrafted on it such a resolution as that
proposed by the noble lord. Ije would not detain the house
further—he would simply repeat, that if the resolution of the
noble lord were to pass, he (Sir Henry Hardinge) would not be
time person to bring in a tithe bill embodying it.
Lord JOlll4 IlussEsh said he would endeavour to answer the
question which the right hon. gentleman had addressed to him.
His view in considering the subject was this—in pants of Lime-
rick or Kerry, whemthere existed a great number of parishes
containing no proteftnts or only a very few, there would arise
a surplus. in conseqiience of there being too many beneficed
clergymen to perform the-duties required on behalf of those
protestants. ale should propose to take away the whole reve-
nues of those benefices which were not needed, murder to apply
them to the augmentation of small livings, and (we believe) the
building of churches and of glebe-houses in Armagh and Down,
where sum-h application might be called fur; the surplus then
remaining he should propose to apply to moral and religious
instruction in the district.

Mr. BARING closed Ws sieecli_by,a„vimk, ;f it were the in.
tentiou at the how, that-thecineation of appropriation sliouht be
dealt with, surely the fairest and most just course would- he' to
introduce a distinct and substantive measure with reference to
that subject, and not etnharrass his majesty's-ministers in pass-
ing a hill which had been brought forward merely for the purpose
of commuting tithes and regulating their collection.; ( Hear,
hear.) Ha was unwilling to close the few observations which
he had addressed to the house without strongly impressing- on
them the dancer which must result to the church .from the
passing of such a resmution as that proposed by the noble lord,
and without declaring it as his decided opinion that if the object
of those who supported it was to promote the peace and security
of Ireland, they could not have taken a mare injudicious and
inexpedielit 'course for the purpose of attaining the .desired end
than that which they bad chosen. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Mr. HENRY GRATTAN supported the resolution. Alluding to
the close of Sir 11. Harilinge s speech, he said it might perhaps
be difficult to carry on a government on the principles of orange
ascendancy.

Mr. SIN(ILAIR thought the noble lord's motion of a revolu-
tionary character and tendency. (Hear, hear.) •The com-
mencement was with the property of the church ; the next
step would be to relieve laymen from the incumbrance of
their property' eventually, ail titles and distinctions would be
abolished, and Woburn Abbey might perhaps be converted into
one, of Owen's national schools, placed under the superin-
tendence of Citizen John Russell the eider, (a laugh.)
Lord F. EGERTON said, that when he heard hon. members
opposite declare that the proposed measure would tranquillize
the distracted country of Ireland, ho could not agree with them.
The noble lord by whom the resolution was proposed, and his
friends, were nnbubtedly a formidable party. But there were
other persons whom he (lord F. Egerton) must consider as the
leaders in this business. For instance, there was the hon. mem-
ber for St. Albans. The hon. gentleman went much further
than the noble lord, for he said he veined the principle iu the
resolution because it would bring under the control of the state,
meaning of the House of Commons, all corporate property
whatever. The hon, member fair Meat h haul termed this questiou
a renovation of the catholic question. Now one of the great
Eromoters of catholic emancipation, to whom he (Lord F.
gerton) had listened with that delight .and enthusiasm with
which a young mind ever received the impressions of eloquence
—he meant Lord Plunket—had contended on that occasion that
one of the great results of emancipation would be to induce the
catholics to maintain inviolate the principles. ay, and the pro-
perty, of the protestant church in Ireland. He (Lord F.Egeri on )
had given his humble assistance to catholic emancipation on
that, ground, and he therefore felt himself bound in honour
and consistency to maintain the rights of the protestant
church in Ireland. Ilow could the resolution be carried
into effect but by adopting the principle of proportion ?
Now, it' that principle were introduced into Ireland, and it were
thereby rendered. beneficial to the Roman Catholics in that
country to reduce the number of
.protestants, the results would
in all probability be written in indelible characters of blood
and fire, and handed down to shuddering and incredulous pos-
terity. If hon. members referred to the evidence before the
committee on the subject, in 1825, they would find that the
tithe question was not treated then as it was at the present inn-
went. Dr. Doyle, Mr. O'Conm 11, and the other witnesses,
merely spoke of tithes as interfiring with apiculture. It had
not been his intention to address the house at all on this ques-
ti;:n; but when those who opposed tLe resolution were taunted
with proceeding to ring the highly objectionable, unless indis-
pensably necessary, alarm-bell, "the church is in danger," he
telt.hunndao say that. iu his.opiniont.the chur4 was in dan-
ger; and that present events were a jtistffication of a recourse
to that expedient., (1-tear, hear, hear.) The day was at hand
alien, urged by no factions purposes, but by the noblest motives
that could actuate the human breast, a voice wouA roll like
thunder over the island, rousing in every bosom that attachment
to our sacred institutions by the manifestation of which alone
could they be saved. To those institutions he had thought it
his •duty to give- the best support which his humble abilities
would permit (Hear, hear, hear!)

The Avron:s EY GENERAL concluded an elaborate argument
in opposition to the resolution as follows :—\Vhat object had
-the noble lord in view ? The practical benefit of the people
of Ireland, or the gratificatiou of those who were adverse to
the church ? (Hear.) If it were the latter, all he could say
was, that after all that had been done, and said, and sworn
(cheers), no such feeling ought to exist to be gratified, or if it
did exist, no man ought to have the disposition to gratify it.
i Hear.) Did the uohle lord think that, by not waiting fur the
tithe bill, but by taking this opportunity of bringing the house
to some resolution upon this subject, he had hit upon an
iiu:enious expedient that would render it impossible for his
right honourable friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer),
after the declaration he had made, to carry on the government ?
( Hear!) Upon this part of the question it did not become him
to speak much, but •he had a right to adopt as independent a
tone as the honourable member for Edinburgh. I sought not
(continued the honourable and learned geutleman)-1 sought
not a seat in this house—l sought not office under the govern-
ment-1 derive no heuefit from either. I ant placed here in a
situation of independence quite as great as that of any other
hon. member, and I can assure the noble lord that as far as I
am concerned, if he can form an administ lotion that will perfect
and not destroy the institutions of this great country, I, for
ot:e, will cheerfolly resign my place to some member of that
administration that will .possess the confidence of the people,
and that will not abuse that. confidence. (Hear, hear.) But
let we wain the noble lord, that if he gr es on, he must be pre-
pared to see the principle of this resoiutiou Cairied into etrect
by others, with whom I cannot think he wishes to coincide.
Let sue caution him, as an eminent writer has said of an illus-
trious statesman (Lord Chatham), that whilst he only intended
to hamper a minister, he lost us America ;—let me caution the
noble lord, that history, to which he has alluded, do not say of
bin:, that while he only intended to hamper a minister, he de-
stroyed a church and dismembered an empire. (Cheers.)
Mr. PERE IN valued the principle of the resolution because
it was calculated to give peace to Ireland, and would give in-
creased and just etliciency to the established church.
Mr. Serjt. J ACK sok opposed the resolution.
Mr. Gisburne, Mr. C. W. Wynn, Colonel Sibthorp, Mr. nogg,
and Mr. Lucas, followed in the debate.

Sir ROBERT PEEL spoke at great length in reply, he com-
menced by &tying that he should not have offered a single word.
if it.hail.not been assumed that the was now discussing the
same question upon which it had been engaged fur six succes-
sive nights. But the resolution which the house was now called
• upon t , affirm was this :—" That no measure upon the subject
of tithes in Ireland can lead to a satisfactory and final adjust-
ment which does nut embody the foregoing resolution." He
had great objection to the form of the resolution, and to the
principle which it would establish—a precedent which was per-
fectly novel, and with respect to which the noble lord himself
must have entertained great doubts, since it was an entire de-
' parture from the course which he miginaly gave notice it was
j his intention to pursue. (Cheers.) The noble lord, in the first
instance, said that it' the House of Commons affirmed hie reso-
lution, he would notify that fact to the crown by address, in or-
der to euirbte him to proceed with a bill. What did he now
propose to do ? lie had passed his resolution ; he proposed to
make no communication to the crovvu, he proposed to make no
communication to the House of Lords, but he did propose that
the House of Commons should inform itself that it had passed
the resolution, and that it would hereafter be bound by it.
(Cheers.) . The noble lord now called upon the housejo declare
that no measure which should not embody the principle of his
resolution could lead to a satisfactory settlement of .the tithe
question. He objected to that proposition. Ile thought it
would be mutt unwise in the house to declare that one single
measure could alone lead to a final and satisfactory result.
(Hear, hear.) The adoption of such a course was most objec-
tionable, and he thought that those who approved of the resolu-
tion origivatly moved by the noble lord were perfectly at liberty
to object to his present proposition. (Hear.) A majority of
the house—a majority of 25, had affirmed a certain resolution,
against which a minority of 289 protested, independently of
those who paired off, making altogether a minurit) of about
300 members. , The noble tool now called upon'the house to
affirm the principle of that resolution—to declare that all fur-
ther discussion was unnecessary—that no proceedings in coin-
.mittee on the tithe bill needed to be listened to—that there was
but one measure which could effect a final and satisfactory set-
tlement of the tithe question, and that was the measure to which
the majority of the house had agreed. He (Sir R. Peel) did
not hesitate to denounce this proceeding as the tyrannical act
of a majority (vehement cheering tot some minutes) ; it was
the tyrannical act of a majority, by a proceeding of a perfectly
novel nature—a proceeding for which no precedent could be
found, to preclude the necessity of further discussion in order-
to avoid their own conviction-in order to avoid listening to
what might be urged in committee, to bind themselves irrevo-
cably by an unnecessary pledge to the opinion that no measure
could lead to a final and satisfactory settlement of the tithe
question which did net embody a certain principle. (Cheers.)
[Our extracts from Sir Robeit's speech are necessarily short,
on account of the length of the debate.] Alluding to Sir. Gis-
borne's speech, the right hun. baronet said; the hon. member
for Derbyshire, who had by his own confessiun been searching
after precedents, had been Odd to quote only two authorities
bearing on the question of spuliati pips which 'aere Henry VIII.
and Captain Macheath. (Laughter.) The heuourable member,
after giving loin (Sir Robert Peel) credit for his historical
knowledge as regarded Henry V 111.,, was kind euuugh to as-
smite that he was equally cognizant of the dictum Of Captain
Macheath. The Captaiu was a wiser man than the bun. mem-
ber :he never appropriated a surplus till he got it. (Great
cheering and laughter.) The Captain applied hi. surplus to se-
cular purposes. (Laughter.) So far he resembled the honour-
able member and his friends, but he differed from them in this
respect—that in the first instance he ascertained its existence.
(Cheers.) After enumerating several of his objections to the
resolution, Sir Robert said that he had another objection against
this resolution. That was, that its object was to obstruct the
passing of the Tithe Bill. (Hear, hear.) It was a way of no-
tifying to the government, in a dangerous and unprecedented
instinct, " We will not permit you to introduce your measure ;
we wilt not allow you to pass any preliminary stage iu which
any point could be agreed to; we will not discuss it in commit-
tee, unless you epee to this resolution." This could be the
only motive. Ile hail only again shortly to state that he de-
cidedly objected to this resolution. Ile objected to it on the
ground that the principle of time resolution was unjust; he ob-
jected to it on account of the manner iu which it had been
brought forward—he objected to it because those by whom it was
prepated laboured under a want of information as to the sub-
ject ou which they were legtslatiug. Acting upon erroneous
data— not having determined the amount of the property
of the church—not knowing how much they wanted for thtapur-
poses of education, and proclaiming their otject to be a twat
settlement, a satisfactory settlement, they had yet established
no principle to which the facts, when ascertained, could be ap-
plied, thus aggravating the danger inherent in the resolution
itself. Why "had they not .deterudued how the tithe revenues lip
were to be appropriated? (Hear, hear.) Again, they had
nut taken into aecuuttt hew many livings in Ireland belonged
to laymen. if they were to deduct the lay advowsous, they ,
would find a large sum insist be subtracted Iran their estimate
of the church property, for he apprehended that they would
distinguish between the lay and the clerical impropriator. In
the church temporalities bill this was done, and he suppos-
ed
this would be done again, for the noble lord would not
deal with lay lauds in an arbitrary manner. The result.of this
debate, now continued for seven uays, would only affirm a prin-
ciple whose practical effects must necessarhy be dependent on
the life of every clergyman in the south of Ireland. But what
was the condition of these clergymen its the south of Ireland
who the house thought were loaded with superfluity? They
had been deprived of their tithe fur the last four years. If he
had determined to meddle with the noble lord's resolution,
which lie had no intention of doing, the first claims he should
make would be to provide compensation fur those who had suf-
fered under, sift patiently acquiesced in, the present system.
( Hear, hear.) If they found such men with wives and families
resident amongst their parishioners, were they to be deprived
of their right because they had been temperate in the enforce-
ment of them—because they had shrunk from extreme mea-
sures—because they had submitted to severe plivutions rather
then come into collision with their flocks? (Cheers.) He held
in his hand one of many letters he had received on the subject.
After stone observations, the right hun. baronet read an extract
from the letter:—" I entreat you, if practicable, to create a
fund to provide for the widows and orphans of clergymen, which
the contemplated reduction of their incomes would render pecu-
liarly well timed, as many must now be disabled from partially
attainiug that object by effecting insurances on their lives.
And, lastly, to relieve them from future instalments (together
with arrears now due) to the board of first fruits, for loans ad-
vanced them to build their glebe-ho ..es. I siocer•ly witAk mine
was au isolated c.ise, but fr ivan4 are sii:tiiarly circumstanced
with myself, they have great difficulties to encounter. l effected
the composition to my palish (in 1832) at a sacrifice of £l5O
per annum of the income I was for years in receipt of—namely,
12.581; this was voluntarily reduced by meltui.:43o. By the pro-
posed bill this will be further reduced to £3'22 11.1 s.; mad which
I should pay £5O insurance, £4.3 rent, £29 first fruits; leaving
a balance of £4OO lOs. to support my beloved wife, ten children,
. aud myself, after being above 40 years an un wot thy labourer in
the christian viueyard. (Cheers.) A murmur, however, ehall
nut escape my lips, fur I feel convinced the welfare of the esta-
Ushed church is the object you arid the government are most
anxious to promote. Were the second measure adopted (which
I have humbly suggested), I should regard as trivial every
pecuniarly difficulty .1 might be destined to encounter, for it
would console me under them all, and pluck from the pillow of
death the only thorn this world could plant there. (Great
cheering.) As a small atonement for thus pt esumiug to trespass
on you, permit me to offer the accotripevina pueui, for which my
eldest son obtained a vice-chancellor's prize. Ise was equally
successful with two other poems, but the enclosed is the only
one published." (The pathos with which the right hon. baronet
read this short extract produced a great effect upon the house.)
It had been said that it was riot the resolution but the principle
that was emaciated for. It was notbyvisililg the applicationtllidraaingi
X/O
or £100,(P) trout the Irish church, aud iin
of it to one object, that that principle would be carried into
effect; but it would nevertheless be fatal to the establishment;
and yet this was the principle most anxiously and must unfairly
contended for. If he surveyed those men who since the agita-
tion of the catholic qhestion had discussed it, and had more
than any other, by the powerful application of their talents and
strength' of reason, contributed to obtain political equality for
the catholics, he found that while they ads ocated their claims
they still contended with equal fervour end force fur the religi-
ous establishments of the country. This was the opinion of
Burke. This opinion wits also eutertained by Lord Plunkett,
by Sir John Newport, and by Mr. Greitau, WiI)SC sentiments
were finis expressed in the last words he ever wrote:-.;
" Resolved, that a committee be appointed, with a view to
repeal the civil and political disabilities which affect his ma-
jesty's Roman catholic subjects on account of their religion.
" • Resolved, that such repeal be made with due regard to the
inviolability of the protestant ;•eligiun aud establishments.
Resolved, that these resolutions do stand the sense of the
Commons of the Imperial Parliament ou the subject of civil
and religious liberty, and as such be laid before his majesty.'
These resuiutions contain my sentiments; this is my testamen-
tary disposition, and I die with a love of liberty in my heart,
and this declarationiu favour of my country in my hand." (Loud
cheers.) The right hon. baronet then proceeded—" You are
attempting to establish a principle, hut depend upon it there
will be no limitation to it except in the destinction in its present
form of the Protestant church of Ireland. (Cheers.) lam not
unconscious of the difficulties by which lain surrounded. lann
determitied to make every effort I can consistently with honour
(cheers) to retain the situation which I owe to the favour of my
sovereign, but I believe that I should place my mutat y in less
danger by refusing to accede to your resolution, while adhering
to the opluious expressed by Burke, by Lord Plunkett, by the
practical couttuou sense of Sir John N e port, and by the testa-
mentary injunction of Grattan, than by yieldiug to your reso-
letiou, and thus becomine, a party to the principle which the
noble lord has contended ter." (Loud and prolonged cheering
followed the conclusion of the right hon. bat onet's address.)
Mr. Spring Rice fullossett Sir Robert Peel its time debate.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
Ayes 285
Noes • •

Majority against ministers
On returning to the gallery- Mr. BERNAL was bringing up
the report of the mutiny bill.
On the motion of Mt. L'hoznaurcity the house adjourned at
half-past one o'clock.

HOUSE OF LORDS.-WEDNESDAY.
RESIGNATION op MINISTERS..

The house met at a quarter to five o'clock. The Earl of
Shaftestnity sat for the Lord Chancellor. Some petitions
having been presented,
The Duke or WELLINGTON said, circumstances having oc-
curred In the other house which have induced minisiers to
tender their resignations to his majesty, I beg sto inform the
house that they now only hold their offices until their successors
are appointed.
Lord boot:Gk' A M would still bring on his motion on educa-
tion on Thursday ..next, as that question did not depend un
political events.
The house lien adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.—WEDNESDAY.

Some routine business ha% lug been disposed of,
Sir R. PEEL rose, and immediately the utmost silence was
observed in every part of the house, when the right honourable
tout. proceeded as follows:—Sir, it is toy intention that the mu-
tiny bill be read a third time, and, in melting that motion, I
wish to avail myself of the opportunity which it affords me of
signifying to the house that I, in emijunclionwith all my col-
leagues in his majesty's service, and in conformity with their
tumultuous opinion; have felt it incembent, upon us, upon com-
bined cutisioereion of the vote to which the house came last
MOO., anti of our position as a government, to signify to his ma-
jesty that it was our duty to place the offices which we held at
the disposal of his majesty. Ido not hesitate to say that I have
taken"; his course with the utmost reluctance, and not without
the deepest sense of its necessity, because I felt that being in
postession of the confidence of the king, and having received
from his majesty the most cordial and unremitting support—
looking at the present position of affairs, and at the present state
of political parties—looking also at their strength—the numeri-
cal strength of that great party by which we have heen support-
ed—l have felt it my duty to continue the attempt of adminis-
tering the public affairs, as the responsible adviser of the
crown up to the latest moment consistent with the interests of
the public service. Sir, when Ido not hesitate to avow that re-
,uetance, I believe I shall have credit with a, great majority of

APRIL 10. 1845.

the House of Commons (loud cries of " Hear," from the oppo -
sition) that that re.uctance is connected with public principle.
(Reiterated opposition cheers.) I have a strong imprission
that when a public man, at a crisis ot great importance, under-
takes the public trust of administering the affairs of a govern-
ment of this country, he does incur an obligation of perse-
vering in the administration of those affairs as long as it is pys-
sible.. Ido feel that no interference with public life—that no
disgust to the labours it imposes—that no personal rnortitica-
tMns—no reference to private feeling, should sanction a public
man, on light grounds, in withdraWing from that post to which
the favour of his sovereign had called him ; but, at the same
time, there is an evil in exhibiting to the country the want im
the part of government of that support in the House of Com-
mons which shall enable it satisfactorily to conduct the public
business—which shall enable it to exercise a legitimate and
necessary control over the proceedings of this house—a control
conferred on it by the position of that confidence. (Hear, hear.)
I repeat, sir, there is an evil in that exhibition of weakness to
which limits must be placed. (Hear, hear.) I must say that,
reverting to all that has occurred since the commencement of
the present session—looking to the little progress that we have
been enabled to make fioiu the want of that support and confi-
dence—looking to what has occurred on each of the last four
nights, in which his Majesty's ministers have had the misfor-
tune to be in a minority on each occasion, on Thursday last, on
Friday last, on Monday, and on last night, although' that mi-
nority was a smaller one than that with which we commenced this
session—adverting to the fact.that on that occasion we received
the support of those who not having general and un;imited con-
fidence in the government, yet still have given to that govern-
ment a cordial and honourable support on every question un
which it was necessary to give it ; (great cheers.) adverting
to ail these considerations, I must say, in my, opinion the time
is come when it is incumbent upon us to withdraw from office.
In addition to these considerations, the vote of last night—that
vote I conceived implied a want of confidence iu his Majesty's
govermneut, because it was not necessary, in my cpinion, for
any public purpose to come to that vete. (Great cheering )
It was tantamount to a declaration on the part of the house,
that the helm had not that cuutideuce in his Majesty's govern-
ment which emtitled the members of the present government to
submit to the -Voneideration of the house the measures of which
it had given notice. (Cheers.) The noble lord had signified
his intention, if the vote the house had came to last night should
meet with its approbation, that he would follow it up with an
address to the crown. Sir, I conceived, as great embarrassment
of the public affairs would have arisen by the presentation of
that address, and as I had no right to think the house would
take a different view with respect to it, I thought it incumbent
upon me, and in that view I have acted exactly in conformity
with my colleagues—l thought that my public duty was—l
thought that a public duty was imposed upon we, which I sin-
cerely felt-1 thought that the time was fast approaching when
resignation was inevitable, and that 1 ought not to persevere in
a useless struggle, which might involve his Majesty and the
country in additional difficulties and inconveniences. Sir, we
consider that vote was not merely tantamount to a declaration
of a want of confidence, but the vote of last night implied the
necessity of a full change of the system its Ireland, so far as the
church revenues were concerned. Sir, we considered that that
would impose such difficulties in the way of the practical ad-
ministration of the government in Ireland as to render it in-
cumbent on us to entet no farther into the consideration of that
question. In addition, sir, to tbet fact of the vote being tanta-
mount to a want of confidence, it also imposed on us the ne-
cessity of undertaking the practical execution of the laws in Ire-
land, when a majority—a considerable majority of the house had
approved of a principle at variance with the principle with which-
we set out. Sir, the vote of last night is not an abstract_principie,
the practical execution of which could be carried into effect by us.
Theme way, sir, be points on which the House of Commons may
conic to a different opinion to that of the government upon some
abstract principle of great importance, hut still there might be
such a case wherein the government might govern even hi
opposition to the house. (Cheers.) But, sir, the vote of last
night places things in a very different position. You cannot
leave the question of tithes in its present state. At prevent
you are in a position in which you cannot remain. lu the un-
certainty which prevails, you cannot by any possibility enrolee
the collection ot tithes. (Cheery.) Nothing would-be inure
dangerous than to leave the question in its present state. Pro-
perty of all sorts would be pieced in the utmost jeopardy. Wo
could not carry out your principle—(hear, hear)—aud there-
fore we considered your vote of last night as tantamount to a
vote of no confidence. Sir, under these circumstances, if we
"had remained in pSwer—if we had continued in the govern-
meut—we should have been pressed for an immediate settlement
of that question upon the tithe bill of which we have given
notice, uue of the principles of which was to be the remission
of our claim upon the Irish clergy, fur the instalments duo
under the million act. (Cheers.) Sir I cannot see-1 cannot
for a moment suppose—that the house would have come to a dif-
ferent conclusion. I cannot anticipate that the house would have
sanctioned that principle—that it would have given up its right
to those instalments without the recognition of the principle
of the Vote of last night. (Hear, hear.)' Under these circum-
stances, and having reason to apprehend the delay of a few
days would make no material difference; considering also that
we must have shortly proceeded with the tithe bill, on which
we must have again clashed with the house, we did con-
sider that the vote of last night was tantamount tai a resolution
of no confidence in the ministry. (Cheers.) Being firmly
resolved to adhere to the principle of that bill—(loud minis-
terial cheering, continued for some minutes)—being firmly
resolved not to admit the principle of the vote of last night
under any eircuiustauces—(reiterated cheering)—under all
these combined considerations, we feel it to be our duty—tb be
incumbent on us as public nien, respectfully to request his
majesty to accept the resignation of our various seals. (Great
cheering from the opposition.) Sir, I have therefore to state
that we hold office for the execution of public business ouly—
and to prevent public inconvenience—until our successors are
appointed. Perhaps the best course I cats take will be to_ pro-
pose a short adjournment. I shall nut propose it beyond Mou-
day. I' should have made the motion for adjournment at once,
bui that there would be an objection to it until another matter
had been disposed of. Perhaps the house will feel at this
present moment, aud in the existing state of public affairs,
that any public discussion of other business will be unneces-
sary, and I trust that the motion will be agreed to almost, if
not quite, unanimously. (Loud cheers from the oppositiou.)
If inconvenience should be likely to al ise to the parties interested
in the election committee, for which a ballot is fixed for to-
morrow, the house will, perhaps, meet for the itorpose of making
(het Lenet to iseeseetaeeg nieonvenience, consenting
at the same time to the adjourninent till Mouday. It is with a
view to preserve the public interests that I move the third reading
of the mutiny bill, which I hope will be as unanimously agreed
to as the motion for ad)journment. ( llear, hear.) I wish to
give this explanation as briefly as possible, and in a manner the
least likely to excite any angry feelings. (Tremendous cheering.)
The whole of my life lias been spent in the House of Commone,
aud I desire that the remainder may he spent there; and what-
ever may be the conduct of others, I shall always be anxious to
stand well with the house, whether in a majority or in a minority.
(Renewed cheering.) I well know that under no circum-
stances of censure or difficulty would I ever have advised the
resignation of that great source of moral strength, which con-
sists in a strict adherence to' the principles of the spirit of the
constitution of the country ; for I am sure that adherence vi:111
be the surest safeguard against any impending danger, and that
is why I believe myself and my colleagues ought not to persist
in carrying on public affairs, after a fair trial, and against tbe
decided opinion of a majority of the House of Commons. It is
because I have that conviction deeply. rooted in my mind, al-
though I do sincerely regret the necessity which has compelled
me to abandon the King's service at this moment, yet upon
the balance of public feeling, I confess that I shall more directly
promote the ultimata interests of the country by retiring, than
persisting in a fruitless attempt to carry on public affairs.
( Ihe right hon. hart. sat down amid reiterated cheering front
ail sides of the house.)

Lord Jo NN Ilussaii wished only to state that with regard to
the course which the right hon. gentleman had proposed to
pursue with respect to the adjournment, he believed there could_
oe no objection to that. With regard to the rest that he had
stated, be believed that the right hon. gentleman had only acted
in uniformity with those feelings which had actuated the gen-
tlemen on his (Lord John Russell's) side of the house. (hear,
hear, hear.)
The house, after the presentation of a few petitions of no
public interest, adjourned till Thursday.
Sir Robert Peel left the house immediately aftensards, and
was received by the assembled cro.v d with loud cheers, The
right hon. baronet appeared in excellent spirits, and was followed
by a vast number of persons to the Home Office, in Downiag- •
street, by whim he was repeatedly cheered.

.A PEI 11, 10, 1837),

LIVER THEATRE, CHURCH-STREET,

LAST NIGHT
Bat one of Performing previous to Easter Monday.
For the BENEFIT of:Mr. W. J. HAMMOND.
THIS EVENING, the 10th instant, will be presented Dib.
din's Dramatic Romance of

THE HEART OF MID LOTHIAN.
In the course of the evening a variety of SINGING and
DANCING, by Miss E. Hamilton, Mrs. Raymond, 11 . Melvin,
Mr. W. J. Hammond, Mr. and Miss F. Lecle q, Madiles.
Juliette and Eloise, and the Brothers Jackson.
to which will be added the laughable B tletta of
BEARS .NOT BEASTS
To concltide with .
OUT OF HIS ELEM T;

OR, THE COOK IN A STEW!

Tickets to be had of Mr. W. J. Hammond, 17, Suffolk-street,
and of Mr. Carman, at the Box-office, from Eleven to Three
O'clock every day.
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~ Gallery. Second Price at Half-past Eight.

•
• GRAND ORATORIO,
AT THE ROY if, AMPHITHEATRE. •
• THE SEVEN TRUMPETS.
in-
-1E Nobility, Gentry, and the Public are respectfully -
formed that
THREE SPIRITUAL CONCERT
will take place on MONDAY, WEDNESDAY, d THURSDAY
next, the 13;h, 15th, and lath instant, when 14 ;rand Oratorio
entitled THE SEVEN TRUMPETS, comp ed by Signor H.
J. PANORDIO, .will •be perforated, and a MI CELLANEOUS
A:CT selected from the Works of Haydn, landel, and others.
Thewhole will be conducted _by,
,Signor J. PANORIO.
Principal. Vocalists,- Madame - Pano o, Miss Leach, Miss
Bruce, Miss Gould; Messrs. Caird, odd, Melvin, Davies,
Pemberton, and Bedford, With a numerous Chorus, and an
efficient Band. •

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