The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-03-27 00:00:00

IRISH TITHES.

Lord J. RUsSELI, begged to put a question to the right lion.
baronet as to the coursjhe meant to follow in bringing up the
report on the resolution which had been agreed to the other
night, on the subject of tithes in Ireland. He believed there
was no disposition to throw any impediment in the way of the
introduction of the bill; but, at the seine time, there were some
hon. members on that side of the house who might wish to
aecompanv their vote in that respect with some explanations, in
order to let it be understood that they were not pledged by
that resolution to thedetails of the measure when it might be
introduced. As the report could not be brought up-early to,
night, he hoped sonic other evening would be set apart for its
reception. Ile also took that opportunity of stating, that his
wish was to bring fo. ward the whole question of the .approptia-
lieu of Irish church property on Monday next, according to the
notice which, ho had given- and it was also his intention to
enforce :9n that occasion the call of the house. He hoped that
the right hon. baronet would;nut object, for the Convenience of
all parties, to its being brought forward as a substantive motion:
, Sir lt. PEEL was very sorry to observe that the practice was
increasing every week to take the. supply days for motions. The
time of tee house was absorbed with discussions, leaving no day
for the transaction of the public business. Still he was very
much indisposed to take anrcourse which might he against the
general feeling of the house. (Hear, hear.) As far as the
day was concerned on which the motion was to be brought for-
ward; the noble lord having given notice of it very early in the
session, and as he might insist on his right, an extreme right,
which on public considerations might be productive of incon-
venience, and especially as in consequence of the order-for the
call of the }Muse many hon. members must have made their
arrangements to meet it, he (Sir It. Peel) would oppose no
obstacle to its being brought forward on Monday. Witt, respect,
however, to the mode of bringing it on, he -should certainly
reserve to himself any advantage which he possessed. But if
there was tin understanding on the part of the house that the
bill founded on the. resolution should not he read a second time
till the question of appropriation was disposed of, could there
be any objection, Out being committed by the resolution, to
permit the bill now to be introduced ? The bill was of the-
utmost importance. Under preseat circumstances it was the
law of the land that the clergy sheathd repay the instalments of
the £1,ci119,000, and it was the duty of government to enforce'
the demand in conformity with the law. But the clergy re-
plied, "'Although you have, a claim on me, I have a claim on
another party—the occupying tenant—founded in law; enable
sue to enforce my claims and recover my rights, and then I
will.repay you." y Now, it was a very inconvenient thing fur
government to take upon itself a discretionary• power, and
discharge those payments which they were called on by the law
to enforce. ile.therefure, hoped the house woehl ootg interpose
anyeolistacle in the way of the introduction 'of 05111; the'
most convenient course would be to permit the resolution to be
brotight up now, and the bill, so far as it could be founded on it, to
be introduced, on the understanding that they should not proceed
to the second reading, when discussions ou its principle would
take place, till after Monday next. (Hear, hear.)
Lord .1. Itesseee had no objection to that course. Many
• gentlemen, however, could Dot consent to the report without
expressing their opinions with regaid to it. But he hail no wish
to prevent the bill from being brought in. He thought than an
hour might perhaps be all 'that would he requited for the dis-
cussion, if it were taken now.
The report was then brought up and read by the clerk.
Mr. Munro objected to dealing with the question till the prin-
ciple of appropriation hail been deliberately and finally decided.
Ile protested against being at all compromised by the language
of the resolution.
in answer to a tpiestion put by Mr. Gishorne,
Sir R. Pear. observed, that the bill would be necessarily ex-
tremely defective if he was not allowed to introduce the clause
(relative to the remission of the instalments due on the grant of
1:1,000,090, and the application of the remainder towards the
arrears of last year. He hoped the house would suffer that
-part of the measure also to be introduced, after notice to that
effect, perhaps on Wednesday or Friday, without pledging them
to any precise opinion on its merits, and on the understanding
that they should not proceed to the second reading till after
Monday.
A long-and stormy debate ensued, in which several members
indulged personal invectives to a greater degree than is usual
in the House of CoMmoni, fir with any other deliberative body.
In the course of it
Mr. BARON said that there was but one way possible of ac-
counting for their (the niii,isters) having thus abandoned every
principle, and that was their base desire of holding office—their
sordid anxiety for lucre.
Mr. Sn A iv was not aware of any elevation which had attended
his removal from the opposite side of the house, nor of desert-
ing any principle which he had formerly professed. The fact
was, the hon. gentleman (Mr. Baron) did not seem to know
anything at all about the measure on which he had been speak-
ing so energetically.
Sir 11. hl4RDuque thought that the members of government
would not be justified in being silent under the imputation of
the hon. member (Mr. Baron), although it might he supposed
they could wed suffer to pass unnoticed ecculations preterred
against them in such a strain of vulgar insolence (" Older,"
" Chair! chair-!")
Mr. BARRON said that if the gallant officer alluded to him he
treated Isis observations with the utmost contempt. (" Order,
order!") He threw them back in his teeth. (Loud calls for
order.)
Lord J. Russir.r..iose to order, and in a very weak voice

addressed the house. He said that the hon. member (Mr. Bar-
ron) had alluded:billy:to the political conduct of the right lion.
gentlemen opposite, and could not have intended to offer them
any personal offence. He suggested that the hon. gentleman
should explain.,
Sir H. lIARDINGE again rose amilst cries of " Spoke,"
" Order " &c. He said that he was always ready. to explain,
but surely when honourable men were accused of having brought
forward a measure from a base love of holding office, and of
having for a base love of lucre abandoned every
.principle they
had professed on. other occasions, that coarse invective pre-
sented him in so unworthy a position—a position so unworthy
of his station in the country, in that house, andin society—that
he felt it necessary.to come forward and declare that the charge
was utterly unfounded. (Loud cheers and cries of "Order.")
He felt it necessary to repeat the words he had used before, that
it was utterly unfounded and untrue. (Continued cheering and
noise.) He might have used with, great truth much stronger
words than unfounded and untrue. (Cheers.) Lie might have
done so, but hmtlid not. When, however, the 'hon. member pre-
sumed to attribute to him base motives, it was incumbent on trim
to repel that attack with contempt au.d indignatia. (Loud
cheers and noise, and calls of " Chair.")

Mr. BARIION.—I have only to say that I believe in my Con-
science that what I said is perfectly true. (Great uproar.)
The SPEAKER said, that feeling the freedom of debate was
best to be preserved by attention to the orders of the house, and
knowing that the freedom of debate was never in greater dan-
ger than when hon. members permitted themselves to use such
language as they had heard that night, when they used expres-
sions which they might have reason afterwards to repent, he felt
it at length necessary to interpose. From the course which the
discussion had taken he regretted, hetook.blame to himself, for
not having interfered sooner, and called the hon. member to
order at the moment, for using expressions that• a gentleman
ought notto have used. (Hear, hear.) But he was-fearful of
giving more importance to the matter by interfering than it
perhaps deserved. He saw, however, from the consequences
which had resulted, that he had been in error, and now felt
bound in justice to come forward and say, that any member
who said that any man acted basely, or from base motives, used
an expression which he ought nut to have used, and that hon.
member should recollect that in doing so he offended not only
against, the individual member whom he so improperly assailed,
but also committed a grave offence against the house. (Hear,
hear.) And now he had to tell that hon. member, that having
so of lie most feel it necessary to retract the offensive
expressions he lied used, and to make an ample apology. .at the
same time. (Rear, hear.)
Mr. BARRON said•he.would apologise to thethense. He had
not spoken of any individual; but if any individual had choseit
to take what he said to himself, he had no apology to offer.
("Hear, hear," and " Oh, oh !")
Au hon.. member appealed to the chair as teethe propriety of
having this scene at once brought a close.
The SPEAK Eat informed • the hon. memberAhat he must re-
tract the offensive-expressions he had used. (Cheers.) '
Mr. BARRON said, -that- conceiving that thrOmnour of every
member was best placed in the hands of the Speaker, he would,
underhis directions, retract the expleAsions he had used, and
apologise for having used them' (Hear, hear.)
Sir HENRY HA ermine; satisfied with the explanation of the
hon. gentleman, expressed his regret for the warmth of his ex-
pressions towards the hon. member.
• Colonel EVANS said that, divesting what had been said by the
hon. member (Mr. Barron) of-all personality, he entirely con-
curred in the opinion of the present government which was en-
tertained by that bon. member. - The speech of the hon. mem-
ber was interrupted by an appeal to the Speaker, who put it to
the good sense of the house whether they ought not to return to
the question.
Sir lioaeur PEEL deprecated the course which the debate
had taken, and defended. himself and colleagues from the
charges of inconsistency brought against them in a speech of
great temper and judgment.
At the close of the debate, the report was ordered to be re-
ceived, but the day fixed for its consideration, Ewing to the
noise in the house, appears not to have been heard in the re-
porter's gallery.
ORANGE LODGES IN IRELAND.
On the motion that the order of the day for the house resole-
-
ing itself into a committee of supply be read,
111 r. FINN moved;as an amendment" Theta select committee
be appointed to inquire into the nature, character, extent, and
tendency of ()Tanga lodges, associations, or societies in Ireland,
and to report their opinion thereupon Witte house."—Agreed to.

PUBLIC BUSINESS.
Sir R. PEEL said, that as it was too late to proceed with the
army estimates that night, they would be proposed next Friday,
on which occasion he hoped that no gentleman would propose
another motion on the question of going into a cointntaee of
supply. (Hear, hear.) •i
Mr. llumE said he would upon that occasion move that the
army and ordnance-estimates should be' referred to
,a committee
upstairs, with the view of carrying into effect- what was con-
templated by tho late governinent,—namely, the union of the
two services. . .

Sir IL PEEL.--Does the hon. membet really mean to do that
upon the question of going into & comtnittee of supyly ?
Mr. UUME.—Yes.
COMMISSIONER TO CANADA.

Mr. litnuE asked whether the rumour he had heard, that
Viscount Canterbury had declined to proceed to Canada, was
correct ?

vvSir lt.
PEEL said, that owing to the serious indispositidu of
part of the noblo lord's family, he might piobably decline pio-
ceediug on the mission to which he had been appointed, but his
lordship would not decline on any public grounds.
The house then, on the motion of Mr. Brotherton, adjourned
at one o'clock. •

HOUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY. •
Lord KENYON presented a
,petition from Blackburn, against
the Factory bill. • •
The Earl of RADNOR moved for additional returns relative to
oaths taken in the University of Oxford.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM said that affidavits had been put
into his hands contradicting positively seine of the statements
made by the noble and learned lord opposite on a former even-
ing, relative to the union of Stoke Poges. No doubt; however,
the noble and learned lord had spoken from information that
had been furnished to him. Those affidavits could not, of
course, be produced iu that house. He, therefore, had advised
the parties to draw up a petition with reference to what had -tic-
tmed between them and the poor law commissioners, in which
they would be enabled to embody their affidavits, which might
in that manner be laid before 'their lordships. -
Lord BuouciiAsi said, the course pointed out by the noble
duke was the best that could be put sued. The noble duke cer-
tainly was not answerable for the statements contained in the
petition which he had formerly presented, and he had never
thought that the noble duke was. On this subject.he had re-
ceived letters from a reverend friend of his, stating a number
of particulars, and requesting him to iu'quire into them. He
did make such an inquiry, and the result was, that it fully con-
firmed the previous statements which he had received; so much
so, that he believed he Might almost Make himself responsible
foi them, but he would not do so just yet. It had been stated
that the expense of maintaining the poor at Stoke Poges was
4s. lid. each per week. This, however, bad been contradicted,
and it was asserted that it was only 2s. lld. Now,, he had had
recourse to original documentS, and he found that the first
statement was correct. He had asked his informant on what
he had founded his calculation, and that individual gave him
the return from the parish, which made the sum 45.. lid. This
circumstance certainty gave him confidence, iu the•accuracy of
the information he I?ad received.