The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-05-10 00:00:00

PaiE it poor, sTAN DA RD.

efforts would be directed to increase the security of the church
establishment of Ireland. To secure that great end, to main-
. taitrthe- church-of Ireland in its inherent purity, it was_neces-
sary to make provision for the decent and reectable main-
tenance of the clergy. On this ground he rested his opposition
to the measure-s-that if the principle of applying the additional
value of iinproiled church property to state purposes were ad-
mitted, then the right to every kind of property might- in like
manner be invaded. '(huir, hear.)
'Lord ALTIIORP thought that the right hon. baronet 'had not
made sufficiently clear the similarity between church and cor-
porate property. lie was ready to admit the danger of inter-
fering with the established right of property, but he was glad
to find that upon'the principle of the measure he and the right
hon. baronet were likely to agree, and their differences would
only regard the scales adopted in the bill, and the other minor
details of it. The right lion. gentleman objected to the gras
duated tax proposed to be imposed by the bill upon the incomes
of the Irish clergy, and in support of his argument be had cited
what he (Lord Althorp) had said against a graduated property
tax.. But the tax proposed by this measure was one essentially
different from the principle of a property tax, and therefore the
objections that applied to. the one did not apply to the other.
The right hon.-baronet 141 stated that if the reduction in the
number of the Irish bishoprics now proposed should be carried
into effect, when the usual number. of Irish bishops were called
away to attend then:parliamentary duties, there would not be
left behind a sufficient number to discharge those duties, which
appertained to their office. The right hon. baronet mast see
that such an argument would equally well apply to this country,-
for all the bishops in England were liable-to be summoned to
attend their ditties in Parliament. (Hear.) That argument,
therefore, of the right hon. baronet, came under that class of
arguments which by proving too much proved nothing. Ile
quite agreed with hon. gentlemen that every encouragement
Wiould be afforded to the expansive power of the Protestant re-
ligion in Ireland, but he much doubted whether that expansion
was likely to be promoted by the retention of obvious abuses in
the church establishment there such, for instance, as that of a
much larger number of bishops than the church of Ireland at
all required. (Hear.) It was not necessary for him. to combat
the position-gravely laid down by the hon. member for the Uni-
versity of Oxford, that a reduction in the mimber of bishops was'
a matter not to be heard or entertained for a moment. Look-
ing at all the circumstances of the case, he (Lord Althorp)
thought that the proposed number would be amply sufficient for
that purpose. It would be seen from a comparisen Of the
Churches of Eng.and and Ireland that the proportion of bishops
contended for by the right lion. baronet for Ireland would be
more than was desirable or necessary here. (Hear, hear.) The
amount of the revenues-of the bishops and 'superior orders of the
Clergy of Ireland was about the same as that in England,—
namely, £130,000 a year, while, on the contrary:the proportion
of the revenues of the parochial clergy in Ireland, to that of the
parochial clergy in England, was £ti3o,WO to f.:3,000,(XX) a year.
(Hear.) If time recommendation of the right hon. baronet on
that head should be adopted, it woutd'excite dissatisfaction and
discontent in Ireland. Ile would therefore adhere to the re-
duction proposed by the bill. in the number of bishoprics in
Ireland.

Loan S.-vxmix was anxious in•a few words to explain the
reasons of his voting for the second reading of this bill. Agree-
ing, as he did,-so Much in what had -fallen from the right hon.
baronet (Sir it. Peel), he must yet differ from hint' in giving
his vote ou and :lie ii7aS therefore
anxious to state why he did so. There was no. material part of
the measure from which he differed, except that which went to
appropriate a future imaginary surplus to such purposes as Par-
lament might deem fit.—(llear.) The noble lord himself ad-
mitted that that-portion of the bill wer,t to attack the principle
Of church propertY, and was it for an imaginary surplus that
they should raise that qUestion now Unless one word--namely,
" I:celesiastical," should be introduced in the committee before
the word "purposes" iii that clause of the bill, he should feel
it his duty hereafter to vote against the measure. - Ile felt that
it was necessary to effect a great retinas in the•church establish-
ment of Ireland, and it was for that reason that he would vote
for the second reading of the bill; but if the alteration which
he suggested should not be made by the committee, he would
'vote against the third reading of it. lie wished it to be under-.
stnottlimterery Trerson- who Toted._ for the :sec-anti-:math:ore
this bill was not to be, charged with recommending an invasion
of the property of the Church.
The gallery was cleared, after which
The house divided on Mr. Shaw's amendment. The num-
bers were:—
Aves . 78
N-oes . . 317

Majority . 2:39
The-bill was then read a second time, and ordered to be com-
mitted on Monday.

GI. AS4 OW LOTTERY.

Upon the question of the reading of au order of the day,
Sir It. PEEL reminded the house of the hill lately passed
under which the Glasgow lottery was drawn, and suggested the
propriety of appointing a committee to examine all bills before
the house, in order that no similar impropriety might occur.
Mr. S."lncE.: said it was quite impossible that any person
could know that the bill in question authorized the drawing of
a lottery. The law agent: himself who was..concerned•for the
bill was not acquainted with its object.
An hon..Memb,.n. said he- believed that if the bill were not
repealed another lottery could be drawn under it. • '
Sir It. PEEL said that if the fact were as represented by the
hon, member, it would be advisable to repeal the bill.
Some further conversation, then ensued, in the course of
which several members approved of the suggestion for the -ap-
pointment of a committee to examine bills, and the subject was
then abandoned.

STAMP DUTIES ACTS.

The house went into a committee on the stamp duties acts,
and on the motion of Lord ALT II HOP a fixed duty of Is. 6d. was
substituted for the graduated scale of advertisement 'duties.—
The house resumed.—ltesolution to be reported this day.

POLITICAL UNIONS.
Mr. FINCUI withdrew• his. motion for the suppression of politi-
cal unions on account of the lateness of the hour; at the same
time expressing his intention to bring the question on on the
27th of June.
....COMMITTEES ON AGRICULTURE AND MANUFACTURES.

Mr. ATTWOOD expressed his objections to the constitution
of the select committee on agriculture, on the ground that the
members had been nominated by Lord Althorp to suit his
particular views on the subject. 'With a view to have the
agricultural interest more fairly represented in the committee,
he moved that the- following names be added to the list :—Sir
Charles Burrell, Mr. Hall- Dare, Colonel Terceval, and Sir
Henry Willoughby.
On-the question that Sir Charles 'Burrell be added to the
committee,
Lord ALTHORP said that personally he should have no objec-
tion to SirC. Burrell being placed on the committee. However,
.the house havino: had its option in the nothination of the com-
mittee, he thought unless it should appear that the committee
had been unfairly appointed (which he believed the hon. mem-
ber for WhiteWaven would scarcely assert), it would be ex-
tremely inconvenient to add to the lonelier (38) already fixed
on. h the hon. member were allowed to increase the number,
other gentlemen would claim a like privilege, and the committee
woulit'become too numerous to produce any good effect; on that
ground he must vote against the resolution.
Motion negatived without a division.
Adjourned at half-past 2 o'clock. •
- • TUESDAY. •

•The Speaker entered the house shortly before 4 o'clock, but
in consequence of the ballots. for select committees to try the
merits of the petitions complaining of undue re•,urns for the bo-
roughs of Coleraine and Warwick, the. gallery was not opened
until a quarter to 5 o'clock.
Several private bills were severally advanced a stage.
Mr. Roe appeared at the bar with the reduced-list of the Cole-
raine election committee, which, on . being read by the clerk,
was found to contain the name of Mr. Pease. The hon. gentle-
Man-and the others fOrming the committee having presented
themselves at the table.

The SPEAKER said that he was sure that be.was doing no
more than his duty in calling the attention of the house to the
situation in which it was now for the first time placed. The
reduced list of 11'members to form the committee had been re-
turned, and were now required to be sworn at the table under a
particular oath prescribed -by the act. One hon. member who
bad been so returned the house had already decided to be en-
titled to discharge his duties as a member of that house on
making his solemn affirmation at the table, instead of taking
and subscribing the usual oaths. The question, however, fur
the house to consider was, whether tivt decision necessarily
comprehended the duties to be performed by the 'hon. member
in select committees appointed under a special act of parlia-
ment, and whether an affirmation was, according to that act for
regulating the trial of controverted elections equivalent to the
oath therein prescribed to be taken ?
1111. O'CoNNELL moved that the affirmation of Mr. Pease be
taken instead of an oath. The principle which the house had
already decided 'exempted the' him member from taking the
oath in- his admission into the house, and the principle haying
been decided, it seemed to follow that this exemption extender;
to this partii tiler statute. 'the acts of parliament all went. the
full length of substituting an allirmatiou by, the people called
Quakers, for au oath all eases, with particular exceptions,

I which were detailed, and the present was celtainly not an ex-
ception.
The Speaker inquired what were the excepted cases ?
Mr. O'CONNELL said that the -exceptions- were-in all criminal
cases—serving on juries, and in cases of holding emolumentary
1 offices under the Crown. The present case did not come-within
these exceptions, and therefore the former decision of the house
must prevail. lie therefore moved that the affirmation of Mr.
Pease be received.

The SPEAKER hoped the hon. and learned gentleman would
not cOnceiee-that he had-improperlv called tireattention of the
house to the subject (hear), and-ago that he would- pardon him
for the seemingly disorderly manner in which he-had called
upon the hon. and learned lgtntleinan to state the exceptions,
one of which had never crossed his (the Speaker's) mind. lie
must, however, remind the house, that the proceedings of the
committee might result in criminal consequences to the parties,
and therefore it was desirable the house should act deliberately,
wiTh a vie w'to maintaitritvomrdignity.--- - •
-Mr.'O'CoxsEt.i. had not thrown out any thing that did not
recognise the propriety of the interference of the chair in the
present instance ; he felt, in` common with the house, that it was
consistent with the-entire duty, ..9f the Speaker. (Hear.) He
had the acts now b 6 ire which fully bore out his former
Statement, and he would merely add, that it would be a strange
anomaly to suppose that the house,-after allowing :a-member to
take his seat on making-his affirm=ation, would say that he seas
unfit to discharge the functions of a member of the house.—
(Hear, hear.) •
-Sir-lt. PEEL said, -that if s&h.anomaly existed, it ought to be
regulated by act of Parliament. He was of opinion that the
present case did not come within the exceptions stated, and the
same rule on which the honourable member had -been enabled
to sit as a member of the house, ought to enable him to perform
all the duties of a member:,
The SPEAK hit said that tisllie attention of the house had been
called to'the subject.; upon which, from what he hod heard, he
concluded-that no difference of opitritin existed, it would per-
hapS be more expedient if the hon. and learned member for
Dublin should make no-motion:but
the other members on the committee, and take the -affirmation
of the lion. member for Durhani, catering it up-on the records
that such was d9ne with the consent and approbation of the
house. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. O'CoNNELL salt! thittpereciving.such to be theyrevail-
ing sentiment of the house, he should, with leave, withdraw his
motion. (Hear.)
The oaths were then administered in' the usual way, and Mr.
Pease made his affirmation.

Mr. Go nso N said, that in consequence of the imperfect return
made to an orderisue(l on his motion during the last session of
• Parliament, he begged to renew his former motion for an order
direaetholhe rector, churchwardens, -aiia overseers of the pa-
rish of,Easthamsteadi in the county of ilorks, to return all ac-
count of all hi,!hways, driftwa}s, rides, or_ footpaths slopped up
since the .yearlB2o; and also au order directed, to the ciet 1,-. of.
the peace for the, said county of Berks for an account of all or-
ders of justices fOr stopping up auy roads orfoutpaths in the said
parish of Easthamsteud since the year I 8•4."
Mr. HALL DARE presented a petition from the magistrates of
the Epping.division of the county of Essex,. praying for an al-
teration or.the repeal of :the Jieerßill. •
Sir B. Bt. I.KELEY presented .petitions for
,the abolition of
Slavery-from-baugor.und three other.places in Auglesea.; also_
petitions from the landowners of Anglesea and the mail-coach
contractors and others of the line of road front London to Holy-
head, complaining of the high rate of fares charged by the
government 4:cam-packets front Holyhead to Howth.
Mr. O'CONNELL hoped the attention of governyrent would
be called to the subject'of the expenses charged for couveN -
once between Dublin, and Ilolyhead. Ile helieyed that 61Gse
expenses were as ,high between Dublin and HolYhead as be-
tween Dublin and_Liverpuol.
Sir F. VUNCENT postp•med his,motion; for enabling persons
pledging. goods to insure them against losses by fire till Tiles--
day week. .

11:1S11

Mr. Emma Patataai said that the subject of the motion he
;was. about to submit to the lionise—namely, the appointment of !
aeleotahounnitiee to inquire into the laws_relative.iu .the_passe
ing of Irish vegrants—was one which
.intimately interested. the
!whole conomenityl, and when it was considered how (Li ply al'-
4ected many of the caninties in England were by, the, operation
of the existing lawseha thought. it would not be held undeserv-
ing the
.attention of the government and the house. The ex-
treme expense attendant on passing- the Irish poor fiwn-one
,country to the other was well known, and had fi-equentiy been
b relight- underthe andiceeof.thadionse. _ elniK)B a esimulittee was
'appointed to investigate the subject, and that committee made
a report which it was thought would have provided for the-
Tenses of various kind*, incurred by the passing of the Irish la-
;hoaxers in that. year; but after the presentation of the report,
'the bill had been withdrawn. .A bill on the same subject had
also been introduced; during the last session of Parliament, but
he (Mr. Penner) was not aware that It had passed the house.'
lii_oraer to show while:a:hat railitgralead:nraesaare these chaaages
whighed,oh the different counties in England, he would refer
to the returns:, which showed the number of perSoni. passed
during the last fivayears, and he was very sure that when the •
house heard the statement they would come to the conclusion
that some legislative measure ought to .be adopted with regard
to this subject: Inthexponty of Berks atoue,, for, the last tive
years, the number of Irish labourers passedrose from 2,272
to 4,551, and the expenses incurred by that county for this
purpose rose also from £Bl5 to ai:ls annually. These
returns showed an annual increase in the whither of persons
passed since the year .1828. • In the County of Wilts a simi-
lar increase was observable, while in GloueesterShire the ex-
penses varied from £1200.t0 £llOO annually.. Withoutaletain-
ing the house by any further detailed statements, he would just
quote what were the average expenses incurred by a few of the
English counties during the last five years. In iiertfordshire'
Elba; in Northamptonshire, a:756; in Warwickshire, £9 8; in
Staffordshire, £1687; in Cheshire, i:9oj; in Berkshire, £855;
in,Wiltshire, £1000; in Gloucestershire, £1285; and in Lan-
cashire, where the returns are-only reckoned for the last four
years, £1689. It had beeniascertained that almost all the indi-
viduals. thus passed had come front London. Now, admitting
the influx. to be unavoidable, many questions would arise as to
what was the best mode of preventing the gloat mischief thus
created. Ile had no hesitation in saying that the cheapest pos-
sible mode, provided it were an efficient one, ought to be adopt-
ed. The hon. member then referred to the acts of Parliament
which are at present iii force on this subject. . By the 59th Geo.
ce 12, he observed the power was given to magistrates to re-
i move Irish paupers, and specified the manner in which they-
were to hearemoveaL . This was in the .modearequired by a for-
mer act, the 17th Geo. 11, a. 5. But magistrates acting under
these acts had 110 power to remove Irish vetivers in' any other
mode than the way specified in them, or to charge the expenses
of the transportation in any other manlier than that Voitted out.
He thought the noble lord-would agree with him as to the expe-
diency of altering the laws on this subject altogether. Lie eouitl
see no reason why a person born' in Ireland should, by the mere
circumstance of a six hours' sail, be placed in a different posi-
tion as to his claims on sc.;lety; or why his means of support
should be so greatly Altered. Ile believed the house would agree
with him in the view he toek of thematter, and would concur in the
propriety of appointing the committee of-inquiry; which inquiry
should be taken up from the period of the existence of the last
committee, in 1828. Ile proposed that the inquiries of the emu:.
inittee should be directed to ascertain the best mode of altering
the laws to which he hadleferred. if, -however, the noble lord
(Althwp) would promise to take the matter into his serious con-
sideration early in the next sessions of Parliament, with a view
to an alteration, he (Mr. Paltrier) would not at the present
moment press the subject further than moving the appointment
of a " select committee td inuire into the law relative to the
passing of Irish vagrants, with' a- view 'to its amendment, and
to report their opinion thereon to the house." -
Lord ALTHORP said he would not oppose the motion.
Mr. EWART observed, that the charges in question' were se-
verely felt in the manufacturing townse
Lord SANDUN contended that the que:Aion of -the Irish poor
laws ought to be settled heft); e any enactment on the -subject
before the house were entertained. lie did not, agree with the
hon. member for Oldham with respect tO pre.qare of 'the poor
lan'f-i►i the co-hilly- Of Laueailaaia—liianarah-utnyheiretteved,
they were yery light compered with otheaplaces.
• Mr. SLANEY thought that the only remedy fin( the evil was to •
find employment for the Irish labourer at' home. 'He was now,
a rival with the English labourer, in the market of labour here ;
but there was no doubtasullieient work could be found for him
in his own country. That . being done,- England weld& no
longer be inundated with IriSh hibourers. Ile should not op-
pose the motion, but he considered the plan he had pointed out
the only true remedy for the evils complained OE' There was
an apparent increase in the population of Ireland, because
severalphices•enumerated in alie returns of 1831 were not in-
cluded in those of 1821 ; hut the population of Ireland, like the
negro population of the -West Indies, was, in fact, dett'casing.
He frequently heard in that house cant about. the superabun
, dant population of Ireland; but Mr: Senior had calculated that
Ireland was able to maintain a population of 19,000,000. How.
then, could the population be redundant when it amounted to.
only 8,0U0,000? case of Ireland would be coming before
Parliament again and again, in every possible shape, until
something' was cone to identity- the prorietors of the soil with
the cmiutrv.- The honourable 'member for the county. of Meath
talked of the poor laws effordingpeople deployment in iie;ai d.

387

Ili! could understand that poor laws could give the people foot%
but not employment. In England, -1:8M0,000 were annually
paid_.a.iii poor-rates, which was erinal to one-half_ of all zuat
was paid for the support of the army, navy; and ail the
establishments of the country, from the King doWn to the lowest
constable; but if the report of the poor-law commis.tiouers
might be credited, this large expenditure of money produced
but little comfort and happmess.—The main «•as agreed to.
Mr. SLANEY moved for and obtained leave to bring
for better rating tenements under a certain annual

For KINGSTON, JAMAICA,
The rejular tradiug Brig /FIELD,
Jour NEWLANDS, Master;
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