The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-05-07 00:00:00

TOWN CO UNCI L PROCEEDINGS.

OnWe,ifles,t ,v, the u-aal mootl4' rn-eting of the
Gameil was held at the rwrii..!thil, -me MAYOR tOOk
the chin at eleven o'clock, at w ,i;;11 time there were 23
nie.nhe, s in their respective place-.

THE WATCH COMMITTEE.-TILE MAGISTRACY.-

ORANGEISM AND RIBBO,ISM.

Mr. ASPINALL asked the Mayor to have
the proeeedines of tee Watch C ,mirett•e read in the first
instance. Fie miide the applka-iun in consecpieriee of
he ng obliged to knee town, on business of a melancholy
na• tire. at on- o'cl ick, and as the ci,a•rrean of the corn.
iniitee would be unable to at t n l the Council that day.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCU ext ressed his willingness to
con tint to lie applicatio ~ under t e circumstances stated.
Mr. H. HORN BY tiloU4ht it ex rem ly desirable tat
the proceedings should he read in the presence of a full
Council, as tnev involved considerati its of a somewhat
unusual character. He und-rstood that ohservations
were to he made respecting the conduct of the magis-
tracy.
Mr. ASPINALL said he was in hopes that discussion
arising out of the proceedings would he postpened for the
present, as a case was about to be drawn up for the opinion
of eminent compel, touching the powers of the magistracy
and the conirrotee.
M ORNDY, under these circumstances, observed
that his objection was entirely withdrawn.
Mr. II ARBORD said he should feel it necessary, for the
protection ot his own character as a public ma to bring
forward a subject in which he was individually concerned,
arid ripen which he expected a certain member of the
Ginned, then in his place, to sad:4'y him on a particular
point.
Upon the motion of Mr. ASPINALL, the proceedings
were then rea t. It appeared from those proceedings that
the Mayor (having heard that some of the polies-officers
of the borough were members cf Orange and Ribbon So-
cieties), together with Mr. Rushton, had crime to the
determination, that any constable who was a member of
an Orange or Ribbon Society, was deemed by them ineli-
gible for the situation of a police-officer in the town of
Liverpool, and unfit for police duty. Inquiries were then
directed to he made ; Mr. Whit y, Mr. Miller, and Mr.
Dowling were consulted ; and the head constable reported
that seven of the force had acknowledged themselves to
be Orangemen, and that others were members of three
Catholic benefit societies. A meeting of the boraneh
magistrates was then called, at which the foregoing facts
were detailed, and at which the following resolaitio r. pro-
posed by Mr Rn hton, and seconded by Mr. B Aeon,
was adopted :—" That no man who is a member of either
an Orange or Ribbon Society shall he permitted to belong
to the police force of this borough, and that all members
of the present force now belonging to either of those so-
cieties shall be regitir,d forthwith to withdraw fr,on them,
arid that in case of refusal the Mayor and mag.strates will
feel it their duty to dismiss them from the force." An
amendment was moved by Mr. Hodgson, but, for the
want of a seconder, fa 11 to the ground. Mr. Miller then
read the resolution of the magistrates to the seven
Orangemen in the force, who-immediately declared their
willingness to withdraw from the Orange Society, but at
the saute time reque ted that copies of the rules and orders
of that society rreght be laid before the Mayor and ma is.
trates. Then followed a corresuondence which had taken
place between the Mayor and Mr. Aspinall (the deputy
chairman of the Watch Committee), touching the pro.
ceedings of the magistrates, which proceedings, it ap-
pi ared, were not, in the first instance, commit uuiated to
that coninrittr e ; and lastly, there was the fol owing reso-
lution to which the Watch Committee hail come :—" Twat
the Town-clerk be requested to prepare a case for the
opinion of one or more eminent counsel as to the powers
ot the Watch Committee and the justict s. in respect to
the diend sal of the constables, and on ael points which
have arisen or may arise as to the marraeement of the
police, or the separate duties of this committee and the
justices in relation thereto; also upon the poiros now
raised by the proceedings of the justices in relation to the
expelling of Orangemen and Ribhonmen from the police
as ineligible; and that until the opinion be received, the
further consideration of the matter and the proceedings
of the committee be postponed."
Mr. ASPIN ALL, seconded by Mr. Thornhill, having
moved the confirmation of the proceedings,
Mr. HARBORD said that perhaps that was the time for
him to make a statement relative to the proceedings of
the Watch Committee. in which he was individually con-
cerned—(hear). As a member of that committee, he
availed himself of the opportunity to bring under the
notice of the council a certain report, which appeared in
the Liverpool Journal of Saturday last ; hut, before he
ventured to read any portion of that report, he had to
request the permission, of the Council to put a question
to a member of their no,ly as t.. whether what was stated
in the Jour,oal was substantially correct. He hoped he
should be a lowed to do this, as his character, as a public
man, was very much involved at the present time.
The M• YOR. —Certainly, you can ask may question you
like ; hut, )ou know, it is optional with the parties to
answer tot.

Mr GLADSTONE.—Is it the pleasure of the Council
that Mr. Herbord should have this permission? He
wants to nut a question to me, to know whether a report
is correct, before l►e has read that report.
Mr. HARBORD sal,' he had not mentioned Mr. Glad-
stone's name. and that if patience were evinced, the re-
port should be read. To ensure the attendance of Mr.
Gladstone. It had sent a no,e to that gentleman the day
before, telling him that he was goitre to put a question to
him in Cooncil. Mr. Gladstone must know that other
people had ears and understanding as well as himself:
and it was therefore considered necessary to communicate
with him, so as to ensure his attendance there that day.
Mr. GLADSTONE.—I assure you I have not attended
here in pursuance of your summons.
Mr. 11 ARBORD.—I hope if I act as a gentleman to-
wards Mr. Gladstone, he will act the same towards me—
(hear). I have not summoned him
Mr. GLADSTONE —There is an insinuation here.

Mr. fi 10 I 8;13, it wouldbe an ungentle-
manly act, on my part, to summons him, and that I have
nor done so.
The MAYOR.---I understand Mr. Gladstone to say that
lie did not attend in consequence of your summons.
Mr. I-1 ARBORD,—I say I trust I know how to conduct
Ileth e hasee e
nactii
myself as a gentleman towards him ; and 1 trust he will
be able to act as a gentletria
m. I can
gentleman towards
e.
assure
tempted twice to interrupt
that, although my feelings are very much hurt, I came
here not to show the slightest acrimonious feeling to-
wards any person, but rather inclined to believe thatwhat
Mr. Gladstone has said of me was owing to a want of
judgment. and not with any intention to hurt my feelings.
—(hear, hear). I have been determined for twelve months
past never to allow my natural feelings to he brought into
action to the des•ruction of my better judgment; and I
hope Mr. Gladstone will live to know that I am not a man
of revengeful feelings, or that I entertain any desire to
insult. But, as an independent member of society, I
shall oalte all the stens I can to protect my character as a
satedwhic
hthpuusrpmourtcsh ,t
01 nboew
aturn
portbthl iecorfi en
apd individual.
meetingr diuna Having.o7. -Journal, ts ltrh n
the
m.
agistrates on business con-
nected with Orangemen in the police force: and from this
it anpears that Mr. Gladstone expressed his entire con-
currence in what had fall-n from Mr. Rathbone, and
said •' he c.msidered it highly improver that such a per-
son as Mr. Harbord, the Grand Master of the Orange
Lodges, should be a member of the Watch Committee."
I beg to ask Mr. Gladstone if that is substantially cor-
rect ?

Mr. GL A DSTONR.—Ts 't the pleasure of the Council
that I should reply to the question ? I shall take the
votes of the Council on that point. (Oh !)
The MAYOR.-1 think it optional with you to answer.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE.—It is not for Mr. Gladstone to
ask the pleasure of the Council on such a point. He has
been asked a question. and it is for him to answer it or
not, as he pleases ; but we are not constituted a Council
to investigate such a matter. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLAnsToNa.—Well, then, I have no hesitation in
saving that if this had been a matter which referred to my
conduct, as a member of the Council, I should have
thought it necessary to give Mr. Harbord every informa-
tion, so far as was consistent with what is right and proper,
connected with the matter. But, as this information re-
lates entirely to my duty as a magistra'e, I conceive that
I am now acting in jostice to myself and the other ma-
gistrates of the borough when I say, that in no way hold-
ing myself amenable to Mr. Harbord in the matter, I
must distinctly and uneqUivocally refuse to give any in-
formation as to the report, whether correct or incorrect ;
and that, taking my stand on that, I shall make no fur-
ther remarks on the subj,ct.
Mr. H AR130RD...-4 should not think of remaining on
the Watch Committee until the pleasure of the Council
was known ; and I now challenge Mr. Gladstone to move
that I be suspended from the committee.
The MAYOR.—Yon cannot make that motion.

Mr. HARBORD.—I trust I may have that justice done
to me. lam connected with a public board, and if a sus.
picion rests in the breast of any man that 1 am incapable
to discharge its duties pronerly, put me in a position in
which I may set myself right. I must either retire or be
subject to taunts.

The MAYOR.—If there is no personal, there certainly
is no legal objection to you. None was ever stated, or at-
attempted to be stated.
Mr. ISAAC HOLME4 thought the cases analogous. If
an individual, who happened to be a member of the Orange
Society, should not be in the police force, surely the
Grand Master of the Orangemen should not be on the
committee. Mr. Harbord's challenge was fair. (Hear.)
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE suggested to the Council the
.pr ,priety of asking Mr. Herbord if he thought himself a
member of an illegal society.
Mr. HARBORD believed that he was a member of a
body who were exclusively loyal, and who were constitu-
ted to uphold the laws of the country and the Protestant
government. He should say that any sound Protestant was
in his heart an Orangeman. (Hear, hear.) In fact, all the
laws and regulations of the society were laid open to the
public, who were invited to join, merely that they might
be banded together to maintain the laws and institu-
tions of the country : and therefore, with these objects in
view, he was under the impression that it was not only a
legal but a legally constituted body. (Hear.)
Mr. H. HORNBY thought the discussion out of order,
and that they were not justified in questioning any pro-
ceedings which might have taken place before a body of
macistrates, who met without reporters being present.
Mr. HARBORD hoped his position would be considered
by the council. If a common policeman, who was a re-
cognised Orangeman, was considered unfit for the force,
surelyotao eh;
°Ter.
?. v H.) wh
must
owas
be
egunallny
dihonoraryuali member
ofan
to
on
it,
ihme Watch
would
omm
thei tt e r
aHI e
chooupreadg
et ht
oo srei
swehaonobjected
to him would have the moral courage to rise and object
to him. He challengPa any one to do it then.
Mr. H. HORNBY said that if it was competent to make
the objection, he, for one, would have the moral ermine
to do so, not ecause Mr. Flatbdorde
had
drdischarged his
s unfairly, for he had always themisvery
pro
perly.