The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-04-10 00:00:00

DON CA R 1.0%.

Mr. T. DuNcomes; wished 'to ask if the statement he had
heard was true that government had sent out a special mission
to Duo Carlos, and if so, whether the object of that mission
was to oppose or support Don Carlos ?
Lord MA nos said it certainly Was true that government had
sent out Lord Eliot specially. The object of the mission was,
if possible, to put an end to the carnage, bloodshed, and acts of
violence that were now being perpetrated—such as the murder
of prisoners, and the decimation of villages. When he further
stated that the mission was sect out by government with the
full concurrence of Spaiu, and also of France, it would not be
supposed there was any intention whatever to support Don
Carlos. ctiußcit op IRELAND.
Sir R. PEEL said it was his intention to adhere strictly to .the
engagement he had made, nOt to throw any impediment in the
way of the h use immediately- proceeding with the noble lord's
resolution, but he felt it to be his ditty to bring to the attention
of the house the situation it was in with respect to the navy esti-
mates. He held in his hand a letter from Mr. Briggs, a gen-
t lowan who held a situation in the admiralty, which stated that
the 'art payment to the artificers in the dockyards would be-
comeltne on Friday next, the 19th" inst.; and that no supply
had heeri.,-gr.anted in respect of that. dther payments would
very soon have to be made; for milich no supply had been
granted, and the ailtnira;ty had even been obliged already to
refu:444ayerients •in respect of which they had had no supply.-
4gaiti; with' respect to the,mutiny hilt, if' there were to•he any
Easter holidays, which he supposed there must Le, it would he
Ilei:e4Sary that the mutiny act should be passed by the 13th inst.
Ile would, -however,, as said, nut attempt to delay the
Other busluesl at tat moment, by asking fur a committee to
vote the navy estimates, or to take into considera t ion the mutiny
Lill; but he would allow the house. to go into committee upon.
the noble lord's reSolUtion, hoping that no ohjection would be.
Made afterwards to any steps that might be deemed necessary
to be taken with respect to the two subjects which he had
noticed.

Lord.Joites Rossini. said he should be ready to support the
course proposed by the right hon, baronet, but he would not
pledge'hiniself at that moment that he would agree to all the
details upon the RONV estimates. Before be moved the order
of the d : y for the house genis into cointhittee upon the resolu-
tion he had the honour. to b'ring forward, he would state the
course he intended to pursue. He would not enter upon into a
discisssion of how the vote of the house by so large a majority,
unit after four nightie discussion,ought to affect the proceedings
of ministers or of the house ; but the course he intended to pur-
sue would be this:—Supposiug the committee to agree to the
resolution to-night, he sliould propose that that be reported to-
morrow. It the house should agree to that report of the .reso-
lution., then he should move a resolution to this effect :—" That
it is the opinion of this house that no measure upon the subject
of tithes in Ireland can lead to a satisfactolv and final ad. 414-
ment which does not embody the principle contained in the
foreg,uing resolution." Ile would then state what his view:
were, and, if honourable members opposite di l trot ancede to it,
or if government would not act under the decision of the house
upon the resolution, then lie Initiict feel it to be his duty on the
succeeding day to move an address to the crowu; but he should
not do that tilt after•he-had moved the resolution he had just
read, and till he bad seen what the effect of that would be.
Sir H. HattotNdE sail, in answer to a questiou, that it was
not yet determined what course should be taken with respect
to the million act.
The house then, upon the motion of Lord John Russell, that
the order of the day should he read for the house to resolve
itself into committee upon the church establishment, (Ireland,) I
went into committee, Mr. Bernal in the chair.
Mr. Borthwiek and Mr. Maxwell opposed the resolution.
111 r. C. BAKING WALL: thought that, as there were no sur-
plus funds, it was not necessary to raise a religious cry in Ire.
land, neither was the house called on to pander to the worst
of feeliags in that country; and that it was easy, therefore, to
get rid of the difficulty, and leave the question of surplus to
posterity. He could not but observe that in all ['lab debates,
from whatever side of the }Muse they originated, it seemed inva-
riably to he forgotten that any other party existed in the coon-
.try have themselves. (llcar,'Lar.) Ile couch regretted that

the moderate part! was so little represented in this house, be-
canse, if so, he felt satisfied that the civi.ization of Ireland,
which had hitherto been so touch impeded, would completely
flourish. Fur this party so little represented the house was not
called upon to act; and lie felt satisfied, though he was no ad-
vocate fur the members of the sactettorofesston uxixing-them-
selves.up in the'commoh politics of the country, teat, if some
of the Irish protestant clergy could be heard at the bar, or froth
seats in that house, they-would well be able to maintain those
rights and claims which the noble lord's resolution went to in-
fringe, and that, with as much moderation as talent, they would
secure to themselves numerous friends and tupporteis. (Hear,
hear.) Ile asked the house to pause, and to consider whether
or not this resolution would lead to a final and satisfactory set-
•tlement of the question. In his judgment it would be far from
leading to any such result. The only two ways by which a
satisfactory settleMent could be arrived at was, either by recog-
nising the protestant church, anti connecting the Roman catho-
lic and presbyterian churches with the state, or by allowing the
religion of the majority to have sway. Although he did not
wish now to pledge himself to any measure not at present before
the hoilse, he would not hesitate tearlessly to say, that the matter
could only be set at rest, and peace anti tranquillity in Ireland
established on a permanent footing, by connectiug with the
state the catholic and presbyterian clergy ; at the same time he
could not for a moment acquiesce in any proposition which
should have the effect of diminishing the efficacy and efficiency
of the 'protestant establishment.. That establishment had been
chargett. as a proselytizing church. He denied that such was the
fact, and to it, therefore, on this occasion he should give his
support.
Mr. LUCAS said that as the reveseetative of a peculiarly pro-
testant county of Ireland be might be permitted ta make a few
observations. He contended that the surplus revenues of the
protestant church, if any, should be first applied to strictly pro-
testant purposes, such as the repairs of churches and the build-
ing of glebe-houses, and, next, to the education of the protestaut
population.
Mr. H. L. BULWER sunported the motion.
Mr. F. 13aueat claimed the attention of the committee, and
the more particularly as that was the first time he had ever
spoken injhe house. The honourable member said:—Nothing
has surprised me more its the course of this debate than the cou-
filching accounts with regard to the real property of the church
of Ireland—the discrepancies whiCh prevail in the statements
even among official personages who have -been connected with
the administration of Ireland. The house had resolved itself
into a committee of the eholehouse to consider the question of
the Iriih church, particularly as to the appropriation of its re-
. uenues, and nobody seems to know what those revenues are. I
apprehend that they have been greatly exaggerated, and that
' the statement of the noble lord the member for Noah L:inea-
shire is correct, and that it is, after all, but a poor church.
Hon. members seem to have forgatteu, at least it has not been
noticed on either side of the house, that the parochial clergy of
Ireland, at the time of the introduction of the composition bill
by the right hog. secretary for the home department, harassed
by dissensions with their own flocks, and anxious to conciliate
the catholic tithe payers, sacrificed in every instance one-gait'
of their incomes. In the parish where I lived at the time, the
tithe was reckoned at about £1,500, and the clergyman coin-
.'pounded for £lllO. In the neighbouring, parish the tithe some-
times reached nearly 1;2,000, and the rector compounded fur
£9OO. In the parish adjoining that, the tithe was 1'..1,4(Y0, and
the rector compounded fur £700; and in the parish where I at
present reside, which I and another gentleman entirely possess;
the average rent being £l, or nearly so, the clergyman com-
pounded for is. au acre, thus receiving, nut the tenth of the
produce, but the twentieth of the rent. Now comes the bill of
the secretary for Ireland, striking off' 2.5 per cent., and if this
be not 'sufficient depletion for the .most plethoric establish-
ment, sufficient to satisfy every political doctor on the other
side, not excepting the great Sangrado himself (the hou. mem-
ber for Middlesex,) I know not v hat is. But I would grant,
for argument sake, that it was a rich church, and that a surplus
could be spared; but I still conteud most resolutely that every
farthing of such surplus would be inure than 'swallowed up by
protestant objects and pro'estant wants. What funds are now
wanting fur the building of churches? in the parish where I
lived the number of attendants at church were at first about
200 or 300; they increased to six huudi ed.
Mr. BAINES, the Marquis of Caaswos, Mr. SCARLET', and
Mr. D. RosiarNE, severally addressed tue committee, when
strangers were ordered to withdraw.
Mr. C. Ituttati and Mr. WARBURTON each addressed tho
committee for Some time; during which several members en-
tered the house, and took their places on the opposition benches.
Sir R. PEEL expressed his hope that the next time it was
found necessary to put up a gentleman to speak against time,
the choice might fall upon some one who had something to say.
(Immense cheering and laughter.)
The committee then divided, when there appeared—
For the resolution 262
Against it

Majority for the resolution
Lord J. It uss.u.n. gave uotice, that he would to-morrow move
a resolution, "that it is the opinion of this house that no measure
upon the subject of tithes in Ireland cao lead to a satisfactory
and final adjustment, except
I it embodies the principle contained
in the foregoimp, resolution."
Sir IL YLEL reminded the noble lord that there were several
notices of motion which must have precedence to-morrow.
Lord J. RUSSELL was understood to say that there were only
two motions which must necessarily have precedence to-morrow.
The noble lord here mentioned one of them; and said a few
words respecting it, of which we heard nothing. The other was
a notice given by the hon. member for Exeter for the extinction
of church-rates, and he had his authority for stating that he
would withdraw it:

NAVY ESTIMATES.
On the motion of Lord AsltLay, the house resolved itself
into a committee of supply.
SIR EDWARD CODRINGTON 4ND THE ADMIRALTY FLAG.
This buhject, relative to the Devouport election, was renewed
by Sir Enwa KO ConamnroN asking whether Mr. Dawson, the
secretary to the admiralty, had received any authority from the
admiralty board to hoist the admiralty flag at the late Devon-
port election ?
A long conversation ensued, which occupied the committee
for a cousiderah:e time.

NAVY .
Mr.Hustic asked whether it wasBILLS
true that any bills drawn on
account of the navy had been refused acceptance at the treasury ?
• Lord Asti LET admitted that it was true.
Mr. 'loam—What was the reason of such a determination?
Lord Astirar.--eSimply this: at the close of the financial
year we had no money. It was necessary, if, me paid these bills,
that we should take upon ourselves great responsibility; and,
under such circumstances we thought it better to delay the ac-
ceptance of the bills than incur the responsibility-
Mr. Hi:sm.-11a: such an occurrence taken place in the office
for many years past?
Lord Asti eer.—l t is owing to an entirely new arrangement,
and therefore cannot have occurred before.
Mr. Hine said it really was most extraordinary that navy
Lille should be refused; he believe 1 that the occurrence was
quite a novelty, and it was one which he wished there might be
no danger of seeing repeated. As to the delay which had oc-
curred and the consequent necessity for haste in now passing
the navy estimates, they cruse solely from the ill-judged mea-
sure adopted by the right hon. baronet of dissolving the par-
liament. Had it not been for that dissolution the public busi-
ness would now, in the month of April, have been much further
advanced, and if the house had nut by its indulgence iu some
degree remedied the evil, much greater iuconvenience would
have ensued. He repeated, that the present dilliculties were
entirely owing to the policy of the administration, and not to the
conduct of hon. members at his side of the house. It was the
first time that anything of the sort had occurred for many years.
Sir It. l'Eut. took for granted that the ,house would not ex-
pect him to account for the delay of public business by entering
into the policy of the late dissolution. The delay which the
boo. member for Middlesex so much deprecated arose, not from
the dissolution, but from causes quite remote from that to which
the effect was attributed. The main cause of the delay was,
that there were in each week only two supply days, and on every
one of those days which occurred during the present session
some hon. member or other availed himself of the forms of the
house to move some important proposition as an amendment to
the question of the house resolving itself into committee. He
by no means wished it to be understood that he meant to COM-
plain of those members for the mode in which they brought for-
ward their motions, for any one who looked ut the notice-book
must .see that for all the other days of the week there were 10 or
12 notices entered, and even in the present week, and after
being that night delayed till 10 o'clock before they could get
into the committee of supply, there stood a notice of an amend-
ment to be in the same manner made on Friday next to time
motion fur going. into comniittee. He quite acquitted hon.
members of any intention to delay public business; he only
wished to call attention to the practical effect of that mode of
carrying on the proceedings of parliament.
Time conversatiOu on this question was prolonged for some
time; after it had closed some votes were agreed to, but from
the noise and confusion that prevailed in the house, but very
few of them were understood in the zeporter's gallery.
Tllli MUTINY BILL.
This bill was passed through the committee, after a discussion
upon ,the ill effects of permitting soldiers to wear their side arms
when off duty.
The marine mutiny bill was also committed, and the house
resumed.

Mr. 13a0THE1 oN (looking, at the clock) moved that the
house adjonru. (It was 20 minutes past 12 o'clock.)
'• The question was out put.
• After some formal business had been disposed of—
r. 111tOTHEItTON again moved that the house adjourn.
The qUestion having been put and carried, the house adjourned
at half-past 12 o'clock.

lIOUSE OF LORDS.—TixsDAy.

C;IJA):111ES.

• Lord Ban'uuitaitsaid that tie had a petition on a most im—
portant subject to present-to their lordships; but he should nut
enter upon any discussion' of it, as it related to matters that
were more tit for the Court of Chancerythau for their lordships'
house. The petition related to the charities of Sheldon Mallet
and neighbourhood, in the administration of which it was alleged
there were great abuses, and thepetitioners prayed for an act to
enable the parishioners to inspect the accounts of the charities
and. the deeds, and for other waiters of a similar kind. Be had
himself presented a bill to the oilier house of parliament some
years ago ou this subject; but it stood over, and nothing had
been done in it shice.—The petition was laid on the table.
Lord Bitoconasi presented a petition from the royal burgh of
Wick, in Caithness, against the grata of public money for the
building of churches in Scotland. The petition was signed by
'the provost officially, as presiding at the meeting, and by its
ordet and direction. Be had a letter from the cler6ytuan of the
place, denying the facts stated in the petition.
• The Bishop of, LATH and WEt.ns, in reference to the petition
first presented by the no;ile and learned lord relative to the
abuses of charities, said that he believed that they sate great
in the places to which that petition referred ; but they were now
-under the consideration of the most important personage in the
place, and there was reason to believethat they would soon be
remedied.
Lord B aouu nA M presented a petition from the parliamentary
borough of Hamilton against the grant of public money fur
builtiing churches in Scotland.
Lord Hot Lt.:said that they were going to have a church there,
and he had subscribed looney for the purpose, fur the old church
was at a considerable distance, and they had to go up a very
high hill.
Lord BRIM:6I.IAM said that the nnblc lord was under a mis-
take. The Once was Ilatnilton; in Scotland. Ile believed that
the Scotch church had not the good fortune of having the noble
IoM for a subscriber ; lie subscribed liberally for the English
church, but nut for the Scotch.

PUBLIC INSTRUCTION.
of ExETEIt seeing the noble and learned lord who
Via
of the Commission for Inquiry into the system
Thea t Bishopha 4
of public instructi,u in his.place, gave notice that on Thursday
he should present-the pe.it:ou of a person who complained t;f
the conduct of the commi,,siouers towards hint.

...
Lord Bgouo oA M said that he was no longer at the head of the
commissiun. It was the noble and learned iota on the wool-
sack.

ECCLESIASTICAL COI ETs RILL.

The Bishop of ExETEIt presented a petition iron, the inhabit-
ants of Exeter, against the clause in this bill which compeited the
proving of all wills in the Prerogative Coml. at Doctor's Com.
mons. Also a petition from the solicitors of Crenittni to the
same eau!.