The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-07-21 00:00:00

THE" LIVERPOOL STANDARD..

Emperial Parliament.

110 USE OFI_,ORDR.—THURSDAY. • . -
The lands' bill was read a third tinie and passed.
The Marquis of BUTE presented petitions in favour of the
established church. . _ _

Lard DUNCANNON laid on the table copies of the opinions of
several architects respecting the state of St. Stephen's chapel.

DENS'S THEOLOGY.

The Bishop of EXETER rose to present a petition from a
clergyman b-Aonging to the established church in Ireland, com-
plaining of the system of persecution adopted in Ireland towards
the Protestants. The right rev. prelate took that opportunity
to ask the noble lord at the, head of the government whether a
letter signed " D. Murray," dated the 2.; July, and purporting
to be written by Dr. Murray, one of his majesty's eominission-
ers of education in Ireland, had been received by him?
Viscount Meelloce NE said that he had received a letter from
Dr. Murray, stating that he had caused the letter alluded to by
the right rev. prelate to be inserted in the newspapers, and call-
ing his (Lord Alelbourne's) attention to it. He immediately
wrote back to inform the rev. individual that he had not read
the letter, and then Dr. Murray forwarded to him a-manuscript
covhooftt.
Bishop of EXETER, said, that considering that the letter
in question, proceeded froM a person holding so high an office
under-the crown as did Dr. Murray, for in his, (the Bishop of
Exeter's)_opinion there were few situations of greater trust than
that
,which was occupied by those who were commissioners for
uatiOnal education in Ireland, and considering also that that
letter had been addressed to his majesty's prime Minister, the
course which he at first resolved to take was to move that a copy:
of it should be laid on the table of that house. - But there was
something.in the letter which afterwards induced him to alter
his determination. It contained an allusion to What had passed
in their lordships' house, and be was -apprehensive that as that
allusion might be considered a breach of privilege, it would be
necessary, supposing the letter to be produced, that further pro-
Ceedings should be taken With respect to it. Under these cir-
-1 cumstances, he.thought the best course he could take would be
to give notice to the noble viscount (Melbourne) of his intention
to ask that day whether or not such a letter had been received.
The rev. prelate then defended himself against 'the charge of
having attacked Dr. Murray* for the purpose of injuring the
Irish board of education of which Dr. Murray is a member. He
(the Bishop of Exeter) held in his hand a book put forth with
the authority of the illustrissina et reverentutsimi archiepiscopi
Dublinensis. It was a book which contained directions to the
Rinnan catholic clergy for the. performance of divine service,
and also a statement of the subjects to be 'entertained at the
conference in the proyince of Leinster.: The book had also ap.
p_ended to it a declaration on the part, of the bolialtseller, that
Dens's complete Book of Theology was unanimously resolved, at
a tneeting of the Roman catholic prelates W i itt n Dublin in
September, 1808, to be_the best book on the subject whichcould
he-published, "'as coittaining the most sea/re guidance for such
ecclesiastics,as may,,by reason of the peculiar circumstances of
this country, he deprived of the opportunity of referring tapub-
lie libraries or consulting those who may be placed in authority
aver them : in consequence, an edition of this work wasordered
to be printed by the present Publisher to the number of 3,000."
It therefore_appeared that Dens's Theology was to stand in lieu
of all other books to the Roman catholic clergy. The publish-
er then went on to say, that " inasmuch as the work is very rare,
and scarcely to be met with, and inasmuch as his Grace Dr.
Murray, Dr. Doyle, Dr. Keatirfg, and Dr. Kinchela, have
made it the conference-book for the clergy of the province of
Leinster, the publisher, as well to obviate the difficulty expe-
rieneed_by them as also to advance the cause of religion and
morality in the other parts of the Irish church, is induced to re-
priot a limited nurnber of copies." That limited number ex-
tended to 3,000. Their lordships would peiceive that this book
of Dens's was originally ordered to be republished in 1808; and
when that edition was exhausted, another edition became neces-
sary, for which Dr. Murray had insured a sale by appointing it
to be the conference-book for the clergy of the province of
Leinster. .That fact, then, was sufficient to justify him in as-
serting that Dens's Theology was published with the authority of
„Dr. Murray ; but there was another and more important fact to
which he should call their lordships' attention. In the new
edition of the work an 'additional volume was comprehended,
containing the rules, conititutions,&c., of Pope Benedict XIV,"
and the supplementary matter was stated to be added with
the sanction and approbation of his Grace the Most Rev. Arch-
bishop Murray. He really thought it would be wasting their
lordships' time to press this matter further. He had, in his
judgment, sufficiently established that the work had been sent
forth under the authority of Dr. Murray, and it appeared, ac-
cording to the advertisement, to be specially intended for
the edification of the Roman catholic clergy, for their secure
guidance, and to enable them to advance the cause of re-
ligion and morality in the other parts of the Irish church.
Such clergymen as felt disposed to possess. the work were
particularly directed to send their names to certain booksellers.
A supplementary scheme had been issued with the express
sanction of Dr. Murray, containing matters not only 'offensive
to protestant ears, but to those of foreign Roman Catholics, and
doctrines which would not be tolerated in catholic countries
had been published in Ireland. In the letter which had been
lately published in the newspapers,_ Dr. Murray stated that the
character of Dens's Theology had been entirely misstated. ." I
did not," he said, " make it the text-book for our theological
”conferences; for, on such occasions, we have no such book, if
by this expression we are to understand the work of any writer
whose opinions (when not defined by the church as articles of
faith) the clergy are required, or in any manner expected, to
maintain." He must frankly confess, that he had not the same
opinion of a " text-book" as Dr. Murray appeared to enter-
tain. In his judgment, a text-book was not so much an autho-
rity of itself as a book pointing out, when authority was re-
quired, where the canons, the decrees, and the hulls of the
popes, which were to be considered the foundation of the
Roman catholic faith, might be found. It was in that sense
alone that be (the Bishop of Exeter) meant to say that Dens's
Theology was put Jinni as a text-book. He must also state,
that book was not regarded in Ireland quite so lightly as it ap-
peared to be by Dr. Murray. He had seen only that day a letter
published in the newspapers, written by Mr. Nowlan, who had
not very along ago conformed to the church of England ; and
it was a very strong evidence of the sincerity of that gentle-
man's conversion, that he had chosen the present time for' de-
claring that he had in February last retracted the errors of the
church of Rome, and enrolled himself among the followers of
the church of England. In the course of a very able letter he
said that he had refused pecuniary assistance, and that in aban-
doning what he considered a rich and pampered church, he sur-
rendered himself on the grounds of conscientious belief to the
service of a church which was insulted and persecuted. He
(the Bishop of Exeter) feared that there existed too mui h rea-
son for the latter observation. In reference to a remark made
by Mr. Maguire, a Roman catholic priest, that " the Roman
catholic religion rested on the authority of Johanna Sout }note
as much as on that of Peter Dens," Mr. Nowlan observed,
" Pray, when, and under what influence, did you write this
dreadful fabrication ? Did vou imagine your assertions could
pass unnoticed ? Pray, sir, 'let me ask you, is not Dens's The-
ology one of the reference-books of Maynooth college, where
you and I have studied, though not as contemporaries? Is not
that book left in the pulic library for the perusal of all the
students? Again, had you or I ever heard of its perusal being
prohibited? Hail you not often made its contents your answers
for class ? And with all these questions, which must be an-
swered in the affirmative, will you still assert that your religion
no more rests upon the authority of Peter Dens than upon the
authority of Joanna Southcote .?
Many students had copies of
_it in my time for their own use, and were never prevented from
reading it. When 1 officiated as a Homan clergyman, many of
the priests' conferences in Ireland were regolated by the ques-
tions and answers from Dens's Theology. To these circum-
stances must be added the fact, that Dens's opinions are as
much respected in Maynooth as Blackstone's Commentaries in
the protestant universities of England." He; therefore, was
entitled to say, that Dens's Theology was not regarded as a
trifling authority in Ireland. He should now endeavour to ex-
plain to their lordships what the nature of these conferences
was, in, which Dens's work was ordered to be used as a text-
book. In Ireland, and in Roman catholic countries, the con-
ferences of the bishops with their clergy were different from the
meetings of the clergy in protestant countries. They were held
for the purpose of instructing the Roman catholic clergy, who
professed a character widely distinct from that professed by the
protestant clergy. They insisted on having an authority and
dominion over the consciences and conduct of the people, which
no protestant clergyman ever presumed to dream of. He would
read a short extract from a most authentic book, the Roman
Catechism, sent forth by the authority of the council of Trent,
and which the Roman catholic prelates, when examined
before the committees of parliament in 1835, admitted to be
a decisive authority from which no Roman catholic could
appeal—" First, the faithful must be taught how great the no-
bility and excellency of this sacrament is, ' For seeing the
bishops and priests' are, as it were, the interpreters and am-
bassadors of God, who, in God's name, teach men the divine
law and the rules, and ' personate God himself in the earth,'
' they are worthily called not only angels-hut gods also, because
they hold the power and the name of the immortal God among
us. These were the words of a most authoritative work,
declared to be so by Dr. Murray and all the Roman catholic
prelates ; and they were not mere words, but they were acted
on every day. Fur a proof of this he would refer their lord-
ships to a matter of public notoriety. In an inquiry which was
carried on in. another place a Roman catholic clergyman de-
clared (and his honest avowal was honourable to him) that "in
the confessional he was as it were God." But it might be said
the itaian cathotfc-cfergy-Were not toldama.for ilia; 1.14,t,the y
belonged to a religion which they believed to be true; that they
must conduct themselves as befitted the ministers of that religion ;
' and that the conferences were necessary to inform them of what
the heads of the church thought a fit and right mode of acting
in the confessional. He was not so ready to admit the last
point as the former, because he found that foreign catholic states
were so entirely aware of the danger of allowing the priests to
he instructed by such hooks as they might select themselves, or
the bishops appoint, that they had thought it necessary to exert
all the power, in .some instances despotic power, of the govern-
ment, for the purpose of preventing the Roman catholic priests
from being instructed in books other than those authorised by
the government. Tuscany, as appeared from the report of the
:committee of the House of Commons on the regulation of Roman
'catholic subjects in foreign countries, page 17, had taken care
to ordain that " the regular clergy were to study theology from
• books permitted by the sovereign." In this country, where the
government was not absolute, it was too much to expect that
similar power could be exerted by the state; but the facts he
had stated were sufficient to point out the danger which might
arise from permitting Roman catholic bishops to select such
books as they pleased for the instruction of the clergy. Ile
must take leave to state that it was not easy to understand what
honest purpose could be served by the discussion in the con-
ferences of such questions as the following :
" Anne licitur ritiis infidelium tolerarel" .
" Anne cogendi infideles grenao.fideliam sese adjungere ?"
" Qum pante contra lobe ista infectos luta?"
The answer given in Dens's Theology to the• first of those
questions was very remarkable. It was there stated the Roman
catholic clergy were not at liberty to tolerate the rites of here-
tics, unless for the purpose of preventing some great incon-
venience to the church. It was declared that whenever the
clergy had the power, it became their duty not to tolerate tfie
worship of heretics. The second important question wasian-
swered in the same book, which, as he contended, was published
under the authority of Dr. Murray. The question to which he
alluded was, whether heretics ought to be compelled to come
over to the true church; and the answer was that they were to
be compelled. Dr. Murray, in his published letter, described
Dens's Theology as a work "comprising 4 large mass of very
valuable matter, though containing some obsolete opinions; "
and that learned individual mentioned as one of these obsolete
opinions the right of temporal states to compel their subjects,
by confiscation and other punishments, to embrace religious doc-
trines of which their consciences could not approve. If that
were anobsolete opinion, why was it discussed at the conferences ?
Was it intended that that opinion should cease to be obserete ?
But he must be perinitted to observe, that some of these opinions
were not obsolete in Ireland, however they might be considered
in other countries. The right rev. prelate, after adverting to
some other circumstances for the purpose of skewing that
opinions not recognised in catholic states were not considered
obsolete in Ireland, proceeded to read the following extracts
from the Douay Bible, published iu 1816 under the express
authority of Dr. Murray's predecessor and coadjutor.
Dent., xvii.. 12.—" He that will be proud and refuse to obey
the commandment of the priest—that man shall die."

Note.—" Here we. see what authority God was pleased to
give to the church guides of the Old Testament, in deciding,
without appeal, all controversies relating to the law, promising
that they should not err therein (and punishing with death such
as.proudiy. refused•to obey their decisions;) and surely he has
•not.done less for the church guides of the Isiew Testament."
Matt., xiii„ 292—" No,, lest. perhaps, gathering up the cockles,
you may root up the wheat also together with it."
Note.--" The good mast tolerate the evil, when it is so strong
that it cannot be redressed without danger and disturbance of
the whole church; and commit the matter to God's judgment
in the latter day. Otherwise, where ill men. (be they heretics
or other malefa:rors) may be punished or Suppressed without
disturbance and hazard of the good, they may and ought, by
public authority, either spiritual or temporal, to be chastised or
executed."

Matt., xxvii.' 2•1.—" Innocent of the blood of this just man."
Note.—" Though Pilate was much more innocent than the
Jews, Sic., yet he is damned for being the minister of the
people's wicked will against his own conscience. Even as all
officers are, and especially the judges and juries, which execute
laws of temporal princes against catholic men : for all such are
guilty of innocent blood, and are nothing excused by that
they execute the laws which are unjust, for they should
rather suffer death themselves than put an innocent man to
death."

The last was a very
i important passage, because one of the ques-
tions propounded n the conferences, and to which no answer
was given in the books, was " What is the duty of judges and
juries ?" That Bible was a very expensive work, and sold in
numbers, in, order to enable the people to purchase it the more
easily. It had not been published, however, more than twelve
months, when it was reviewed in th? British Critic, and he well
recollected the cry of indignation which was raised against the
publication. When the opinion of the public had been unequi-
vocally expressed, Dr. Troy, the late Roman catholic Archbishop
of Dublin, sent for the printer of the work, and inquired how he
ever could think of publishing such a work, and of stating that
it was published with his (the archbishop's) sanction ? The
printer asked the archbishop whether he had not authorised Mr.
Macnamara to publish a Bible with notes ? Dr. Troy replied
in the affirmative. " And did not your grace," continued the
printer, "appoint Mr. to be the person to inspect those
notes ?"—" To be sure I did," replied the archbishop.—" Then
this is the very book," rejoined the printer, " so prepared and
published." These circumstances were stated in a letter.which
was made public at the time. Ile (the Bishop of Exeter) had
now said enough to convince their lordships that Dr. Murray,
believing in such opinions and enforcing such a system of ip-
struction_ for the Romish clergy of Ireland, rendered it .very
questionable whether he was a proper person to 611 the office of
one of the commissioners of education in Ireland. The rev.
prelate concluded by moving that the petition of the Rev:
James Robert Page, a clergyman of the united church of
England and Ireland, be read and ordered to lie on-the.table.
The petition having been read, •
Lo'id MEI.BOURNE shortly addressed the house. His lordship
expressed his reluctance to enter on the present discussion, and
remarked that although-it had been conducted by the right rev.
prelate in.terms sufficiently unctions, yet that the temper and
spirit were likely to call up ancient recollections and produce
animosity and discord. There was only one part of thequestion
that at all related to him (LordAelbourne) or to his colleagues,
as referred to in the speech which had been addressed to their

lordships—he meant as to whetherthe conduct of Dr. Murray
in sanctioning or recommending, using or employing this work
of one Peter Dens, of whom he ventured to say their lordships
had never heard till his name had been introduced in certain
public disputations which had lately taken place in London,
but who, as he understood, was a professor of theology in the
University of Louvain about the middle of last century,—
whether in sanctioning that work Dr. Murray had acted in such
a manner as utterly to disqualify him from longer filling the
situation he held as one of the commissioners of education in
Ireland? He (Lord Melbourne) was no doubt extremely sorry
that Dr. Murray was a Roman catholic, and with the views he
(Lord Melbourne) entertained as to the tenets and principles of
the Roman catholic religion, sincerely and deeply did he regret
the fact of its prevalence in Ireland. But he must be allowed
to say that he was not prepared to admit that Dr. Murray's
having adopted that work, as far as he had heard it represented
and characterized, with such an act as should disqualify him
from holding his situation at the board. (Hear, hear.) He
most distinctly declared that as his opinion. It was not for him
on that occasion to enter into a discussion of the doctrines of
the Rom-an catholic religion; it was not for him to canvass the
merits of the work of Dens; no doubt they were sufficiently
objectionable, and such objectionable doctrines, he was ready
to admit., were to be found in almost every Roman catholic
production of the period in which Dens lived. No one ever
maintained that the Roman catholic church was a tolerant
church; but having admitted Roman catholics to hold office in
Ireland, how could they maintain that they. were ipso facto
disqualified, because they professed the tenets and doctrines of
their religion, and acted upon or recommended those works
which undoubtedly had the authority of their church ? (Hear,
hear.) It might have been the precept of the catholic religion
to extirpate heretics, hut to extirpate heretics had also been the
principle and practice of protestantisin in Ireland. (Hear,
ear.) The confiscations of Ulster by James 1., the fire and
sword which Oliver Cromwell carried through Ireland for the
avowed purpose of extirpating the Roman catholic religion,
might surely be set off against a single chapter on heresy Lo be
found in the work of Peter Dens, professor of theology in the
university of Louvain. (Cheers.)
The Marquis of WESTMEATH said it would be a reproach to
protestants not to oppose themselves to the system of persecu-
tion which in Ireland had been so energetically adopted against
them. He regarded the Rornish priests not so much as clergy,
but as political agents, endeavouring to obtain political power
let the consequences be what they might—of confiscation or ex-
termination—to those who professed a faith different from their
own. He thought the speech of Lord Melbourne would be pro-
ductive of great evil in Ireland. He could not approve of the
concessions about to be given to the Roman catholics of Ire-
land, and was.grateful to the Bishop of Exeter for having called
the attention of their lordships to the present subject.
At the close of the debate, in which the Duke of Wellington,
the Archbishop of Canterbury, the Earl of Limerick, Viscount
• Duncannon, Lord Ashburton, the Marquis of Lansdowne, and
`the Earl'of Farnhaui took part, the petition was ordered to lie
on the table, and the house adjourned.