The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-07-23 00:00:00

HOUSE OF LORDS.-THURSDAY, JULY 18.

The Earl of WINCHILSEA presented a petition from a clergy-
man cf Abingdon,. Berkshire, against certain parts of the labour
rate bill.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES (}I2IIELAND) BILL.
The Bishop of EXETER moved t e resumption of the ad-
journed debate on the above bill.
Lord CARBEny immediately rose to address their lordships.
It evidently appeared, and their lordships must admit the fact,
that there nad been in Ireland, for some time back, a systematic
conspiracy against the acknowledged rights of the church.
These violent proceedings had led to the present bill ; and he
would say, that the principle of the bill, as it now stood; was
the most dangerous that could be conceived with reference to
the safety and security of the Protestant Church of Ireland.
After entering into some figure statements in opposition to those
made by Earl Grey on the preceding evening, but which we
could. not collect, the noble lord concluded by saying, that
greatly as he objected to the bill, yet, as It was a measure of
vital importance, he IN as not disposed to vote against its going
into committee.

The Bishop of EXETER, acting on the most solemn grounds,
hut feeling considerable difficulty when he found an individual
possessing the knowledge and experience of the noble baron
snaking such a statement, came forward to assert those princi-
ples which he felt it to be his duty to avow in the face of that
necessity. Considering the feelings that operated on the mind
of that noble person, it was impossible not to see that he (the
Bishop of Exeter) incurred a most heavy responsibility in pur-
suing this course; that responsibility he was, however, contented
to bear. In discussing this question, he felt it to be his impera-
tive duty to cast aside all personal considerations; to view it on
its abstract merits alone, because he believed that the interests
of the church of God. and the interests of truth were at stake.
There was, he might be permitted to observe, a right insisted
on elsewhere,—a right always admitted, and which ought to be
admitted,—that was the right to consider and decide on certain
subjects solely for themselves, without the intervention of that
house; he alluded to the right which the other house possessed
to regulate and apportion the amount of any tax that was to
be imposed by the legislatUre. He lamented that a different
principle should have been acted on in the present instance,
because a decision had here been come to with reference to the
property of men who were not represented in the place where
Vol decision was carried. There was not one of their own
body present to feel with 'them or act with them. He well
knew the grounds on which that right was claimed by. the other
house—a right which' they most anxiously maintained, and
which he certainly never wished to see abandoned. They
claimed it as the representives of the people, and, as taxation
must fall on the whole body of the realm, as their constituents
must bear the burden, they insisted on the right of imposing
that burden. In this instance, however, a contrary principle
prevailed—a very small portion of the community was called
on to bear a very heavy burden. Yet the very principle on
which the other house of parliament rested its claim rendered
it proper and necessary that some means should have been
adopted by which those who were taxed under this measure
should have been represented. Such a measure might easily
have been found if ministers thought fit to have adopted the
principle. If they had proceeded by resolution, rather than by
bill, then their lordships might have considered this tax in all
its bearings, and they might have been enabled to discuss this
Matter with the other house, either by way of conference, or
ire some.other mode, as to secure the concurrence of all parties.
The noble earl had stated the objects of the bill to be three :
let, the abolition of the vestry cess; 2d, the augmentations of
small livings; and, 3d, the building and repairingrof churches.
WitTi-reS'peet to the vestry cess, lie should find it necessary to
trouble their lordships at some length. The noble earl had last
night, in an elaborate display of figures, attempted to show
that sufficient funds would be provided for meeting all the ex-
penses incidental to the new arrangement. Now, he would
contend that those funds would be devoured by the demand oc-
casioned on account of the vestry cess. After denying the
accuracy of Earl Grey's statement by a reference to the actual
value of church property, and the probable amount that the
sale of it would realize, the Rev. Prelate said, that the result
would be that all the funds.pointed out by the noble lord, and
which he had considerably overstated, would not be sufficient to
provide even for the vestry cess; that would devour ;not only
the tax laid on the clergy, but all the other funds that had been
enumerated. He should now take a view of the bill itself. It
appealed to him to he constructed on a very peculiar principle.
To say that it was a delusion would be hard, for he did not think
that it would delude,any one. (Hear, hear.) It was made up
of a series of improved propositions,—the very title of the bill
showed that. It was called "An act to alter and amend the
laws relating to the temporalities of the church in Ireland."
Now, how did that title agree with the contents of the measure ?
Let their lordships look to the bill on their table " to alter and
amend the live relating to real property," and let them suppose
that all which that bill was to effect was merely to take off
the legacy duty, and charge it on the land. .(Hear, hear.)
The. inconsistency would be evident, but such an inconsistency
would not be greater than that which was manifest if they cons-
pared the title of this bill with its provisions. The preamble of
the bill said, "whereas it is expedient to make provision for the
abolition of first fruits in Ireland, and the substitution of an
annual tax in lieu therebf." Now, it appeared that these first
fruits did net amount to more than £3OO a-year, which was pay-
abe by a great numberof persons; and he did think it extraor-
dinary that any body of men should arrive at the opinion that
it was expedient to do away an impost of that trifling amount
for the purpose of substituting a tax of £50,000 or £60,000
a-year. (Hear.) The noble earl thought that there was a full
ation for the abolition of first fruits. They were paid
originally to the Pope, for temporal purposes; the new head of
the church in this country succeeded the Pope in demanding
th it-contribution, and now, it appeared, the legislature claimed
the'rits,ht of dealing with it in their turn. (Hear, hear.) He
d:ew that inference; he did not charge the noble earl with
having drawn it (hear, hear;) but such was the inference which
he thought he was justified in drawing. He was well aware
of the case which had been cited of the establishment of the
University of Dublin, and agreed in the opinion that that might
at 'firsfsight form a distinct precedent of the transfer of church
property to lay purposes; but it must not be forgotten that a
portion of the revenues of the church, as well observed by the
right reverend prelate, (the Bishop of Durham,) were set ;past
for promoting the ativancement of teaming. About twenty
or thirty years ago, the schools in that university were increased,
end in comequeuce.a p.ortion. of these revenues were devoted
to the extension- of- their foundations ; but this proceeding