The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1843-06-23 00:00:00

Varitainiiitarp procttbitto.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-MONDAY

In reply to a question from Mr. HINDLEY

Sir R. -PERI, said he was stronuic in favour of the course
pursued by the Spanish Regent, who, although surrounded
by the greatest difficulties, had still maintained with credit
the high position to which he had attained. Should he be
forced to abandon that position, he would still retain the
consolation that he had mainly contributed to lay the foun-
dations of constitutional government in Spain.
In reply to another question from Mr. H IN DLEY.
SIR J. GRAHAM said that it was the intention to go on
with the Factories Bill, though some alteration in the details
would he necessary, owing to the withdrawal of the educa-
tional clauses.

Mr. CHRISTOPHER complained that many of the names
signed to a corn law repeal petition from Epworth, in Lin-
colnshire, were forgeries, and moved that the petition be re-
ferred to a select committee. _

Sir G. STRICKLAND said that he had presented the peti-
tion, and he had since made inquires upon the subject, and
found that some of the signatures were forgeries. He had,
however, received a communication from the Secretary to the
Doncaster Auti-Corn-Law Association, the party who had
sent him the petition, intimating that many of the names were
given under the impression that they would not be given to
the public, and such was the timidity of people in the rural
districts, that they feared to avow their real sentiments on
the subject of the corn laws.
It was then agreed to refer the subject to a select committee
Mr. 13Lew ITT asked if it were right that the King of
Hanover should still take his seat in the House of Lords and
exercise the duties of a peer of the realm and a privy

councillor ?
The ATTORNEY.G EN ERA L was disinclined to answer the
question, unless called upon by the house to do so.
On the motion for going into committee on the Factories
Bill.

Lord ASHLEY deeply regretted that the educational clauses
of the Factories Bill should be abondoned. Much had been
conceded by the Church in the way of concilation, but in vain.
Doubtless the Government had done everything which it be-
lieved to be its duty, but the parties who had no reason to be
satisfied were the unfortunate objects of ignorance. For his
own part he would say, that unless a very great alteration
should take place in the temper of opposing parties, he would
gain be a party to any scheme for endeavouring to bring

antagonist bodies to act in harmony.
Mr. M. GIBSON said that the real cause of failure was to
be traced to the assumption of the Established Church,
which sought a supremacy, and would willingly apply the
money of the dissenters to teach the doctrines of the Esta-
blished Church. They should take up the subject on the
principles of co►nmen sense, and treat all classes equally as
fellow-citizens.

Sir R. INGets was of opinion that if the government had
taken a more decided tone as to the kind of education to be
given to the people, it would have received a more cordial
support from the members of the Established Church. He
hoped that in the course of next session the government
wouldintroduce a measure similar to the present, upon which
the house had not had the opportunity of giving any opinion.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that the government, having just
abandoned a long and well-considered scheme of education,
were not prepared to sae, that they had another under consi-
deration. In the course of his communications with the
heads of the church, they had displayed a great desire to con-
ciliate the dissenters and respect their rights.
The house soon after went into committee, pro forma, on
the bill, in order to make the necessary alterations, after
which the house resumed, and the adjourned debate on the
Arms (Ireland) Bill was resumed by
Mr. GISBORNE, who strongly opposed the bill.
Mr. COLCWBOUN contended that the state of Ireland pre-
sented serious obstacles to the administration of justice. It
was impossible to yield to the demands of the Roman Ca-
tholic priesthood, and it was necessary that some steps
should be taken to put a stop to the demonstrations of
physical force which were now continually taking place, and
which were as obnoxious as the No-popery riots of Londoe,
in 1780.
Mr. WILLIAMS said ho had visited Ireland in the course
of last year, in order to ascertain its condition, and he be-
lieved it to be the most wretched couutry in Europe. He
also believed that the discontent of the people of that country
might at once he removed by the concession to them of
common justice. The chief grievances were the Established
Church and the state of the law as regarded the relations be-
tween landlord and tenant, and the sooner those evils were
taken into the consideration of parliament the better for the
peace and tranquillity of Ireland.
Lord J. MANNERS thought that Mr. O'Connell was gov-
erned in the the course he was pursuing by since-1-e anti hon-
est motives. but he could not agree that the Catholic Church
should be the established Church of Ireland, rely because
it was the church of the majority, because the present Cath-
olic Church was not the same as the ancient Church of Ire-
land, which bad always resisted the authority of the Pope
until the country was conquered by the English. It was
through the Established Church alone that any benefit could
be conferred on the people, if proper steps were taken to
supply the body of clergymeu capable of instructing the
people in the Irish Language. He was of opinion that Gov-
ernment should enter into diplomatic relations with the
Court of Rome. They might do so with as much propriety
as with the Sultan or any other infidel Sovereign. They
should also find employment for the people, by reclaiming
waste lands and improving their condition.
Sir H. W: BARRON condemned the policy which had
been pursued towards Ireland during the last half century,
and said it was a monstrous absurdity that a church should
be maintained in districts where no people professing its doc-
trines were to be found. He did not object to the proper
maintenance of the Established Church, because though be
believed his own religion to be the best, yet he did not feel
himself justified in forcing it upon others. He condemned
the conduct of the conservatives, whether in or out of office,
as unconcilatory or obstructive to measures beneficial to the
people of Ireland, and contended that the discontent and
agitation which prevailed were but the natural result of such
a course of action. If instead of treating the people of Ireland
as aliens in blood, language, and religion, they adopted an
equitable and liberal course of policy, they might rest assured
that the result would be harmony and peace.
Mr. E. ELLICE said he originally intended to vote for the
Arms Bill, but his intention was changed by the speech of
Sic James Graham, who had declared that conciliation had
been'carried to its utmost extent, thus leaving the people of
Ireland nothing more to hope for, and leading every one to
look at the present bill as the first step in a system of coer-
cion. He contended that Mahornet was more merciful than
was England to Ireland. Mahomet slaughtered or converted,
but England, with more ingenuity, allowed the oeople to live,
but took from them the means of maintaining their own cler-
gy, and as an additional grievance applied those means to the
maintenance of a religion to which they were opposed. The
Government could never hope to maintain its position unless
it undertook to remedy the chief grievances of Ireland—the
Established Church and the tenure of land.
Mr. M. MILNES contended that it would be an indication
to the people of Ireland of weakness,on the part of the Gov-
ernment if they were not to persevere with this bill. Ireland
stood out before all the nations of Europe as essentially a
religious country, and it was impossible to govern Ireland
with advantage without the sanction and assistance of the
Catholic priesthood of that country. He did not think it
was requisite that the Established Church of Ireland should
be done away with, for he did not conceive that it was a prac-
tical grievance to the' people. A recent law had given a por-
tion of Church property to the Landlords of Ireland, and he
did not feel disposed to make them a present of the remain.
der. He thought they had got quite enough from the country
already. At all events it could be no grievance to the people
that it should go to the clergy of the Established Church
instead of to the landlords, inasmuch as that in either case it
must be paid. The Government should act with justice and
impartiality towards Ireland—they should place one foot on
Protestant ascendancy, and the other on Catholic emancipa-
tion, and by adhering to such a course firmly and honestly
they would succeed in pacifying and satisfying the people of
Ireland. •

Sir C. Nariin said if he believed the Arms Bill would do
any good to Ireland he would support it cheerfully ; but, be-
lieving it would increase the agitation tenfold, he would give
it every opposition. He condemned the language used by
Mr. O'Connell at public meetings in Ireland, and contended
that the Protestant Church of Ireland should be reduced to
the wants of the Protestant inhabitants, in which case a large
surplus would be left towards the maintenance of the Catholic
priesthood of that country.

Mr. L. Fox said be was of opinion that the Esathlished
Church must fall if the repeal of the union should take place,
and he believed Mr. O'Connell would be able to carry the
repeal. He was of opinion that the law of the land prior to
1329, when the Emancipation Act passed, was as much the
law of God as the law given to the Israelites on Mount Sinai.
He believed the time bad arrived when the sword must be
drawn in defence of the church of Christ, and in the words
of Scripture he would say, that he who had not a sword
should sell his garment and buy one. He was prepared to
prove that the late Emperor of France was the seventh head
from the Roman power as foretold in the Apocalypse. Rome
was more terrible in the present day than she had ever been
since the days when the old she wolf had been wet-nurse to
Romulus and Remus. (Immense laughter.) The hon.
member then referred to other passages of Scripture, con-
tending that the coining of Elias was at hand.
Mr. M. J. O'CONNELL condemned the whole purport of
the speech of Sir James Graham, which was calculated to
create great excitement in Ireland. It had led to an addi-
tional night's debating, but with that he did not quarrel, for
the two nights' debate had got them well rid of two of the
most obnoxious clauses of the bill ; from which arose the
nice question in political arithmetic, if two nights' debates get
rid of two obnoxious claims how many nights' debating will
it take to get rid of the whole bill ? The very fact of their
giving up the two clauses proved that the bill was prepared
with baste and precipitancy, and that it should therefore be
referred to a select committee.
Mr. MuNTz thought these Arms Bills disgraceful to the
country, and he vindicated the tight of the Irish people to
agitate for the repeal of any law they thought injurious. He
had himself been one of the most active agitators in England,
and while so had, as one of a deputation, been most graciously
received by Earl Grey, Earl Spencer, (then Lord Althorn),
and-Nl—James- .firahani, whet-was now seeking-to-put down
in Ireland a similar agitation to that which he had encouraged
in England. He believed that this was not a question of the
church. On the contrary, he believed it was a question of
the stomach and nothing. but the stomach, and if so treated
the remedy would be discovered.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, and the amend-
anent of Mr. Wyse was negatived by a majority of _i6 to 122.
On the motion that the Speaker should leave the chair,
The house went into committee, and on resuming the
chairman obtained leave to sit again on Friday.