The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1835-03-31 00:00:00

Alt 61Y ESTI SI A TE&

Mr. Hantrias after briefly observing that that was the only
day on which the estimates could be entered upon ou account of
the other business before the house, and further, that the mu-
tiny bill would expire on the 23th April, and that great em-
barrassment to the public service would arise if these estimates
were auy longer delayed, moved the order of
,the day for the
house going into a committee of supply'on the army estimates.
Mr. HUME had always found Chancellors of the Exchequer
and gentlemen connected with the government anxious to get
the supplies with the least possible delay. The course he (Mr.
Hume) had adopted he admitted was not the usual one, but un-
less they adopted it there was no chance of redeeming the
'economical pledges which most of the members had given to
their constituents. It was their duty to refuse the supplies un-
til the financial scheme for the coining year was laid before
them. No harm could, at all events, result front such an in-
quiry as would satisfy the people that they did their duty. After
adverting to several items of expenditure Mr. Hume concluded,
by moving as an amendment that the army and ordnance esti-
mates be referred to a select committee to consider of the expe-
diency and practicability of consolidating some of the military
and civil departments of the army and ordnance, with a view to
diminish the expense of those establishments and to provide a
more efficient control over military expense.
Lord JOHN Itussatn was ready to vote for the motion of the
hon. gentleman so far as its object was to appoint a select corn-
inittce to consider the expediency of consolidating the civil de-
partments of the army and the ordnance. He (Lord J. IL)
thought the war departments of the commander-in-chief, the
secretary at war, and the ordnance office in seine respects in-
terfered with each other, and had no objection to refer that sub-
ject to a select committee, if the hon. member for Middlesex
would confine his motion to that object. He, therefore, took
the liberty of suggesting to the hon.:rent. that it was not advis-
aßle for him to press his motion that evening (hear, hear), oa
account of the statements made by the right hem gentleman the
secretary at war. The course of their present proceedings was
certainly no fault of this parliament—(cheers)—it was not their
fault that they were getting somewhat too neat to the period
when the mutiny bill would expire for them at present to enter
into the discussion of any other subject. He should have no
objection to going into a committee of supply, and take the vote
of a certain number of men. If the hon. gent. persisted in his
motion be should vote for it, but he begged to suggest to the
hon. gent. that it would always be iu his power to bring forward
his motion, which was another reason why he hoped the hon.
gent. would feel no objection to withdraw it on the present oc-
casion. ( Hear, hear.)
Lord STANLEir said that he concurred in almost everything
that had fallen front his noble friend, and he mainly rose to urge
on the hon. member for Middlesex to withdraw his motion for
the present, after what had fallen from the right hon. secretary
at war. He differed with his noble friend in this—that if the
hoa. member pressed his motion, then he would .vote against
him; whereas his noble friend had said he would vote in favour
of it at that moment. If the hon. member would postpone it
and bring it forward in some shape hereafter, in which it would
not have the effect of stopping the supplies, or of the passing of
the mutiny bill, then he should certainly think it welt merited
the consideration of the house, and a plan through which great
and extensive reductions might be made not only without injury,
but with great advantage to the country. (Cheers.) He- re-
gretted that the labours of the commission which had . been re-
ferred to had not been brought to a conclusion, because he felt
that this was a question that would be much better left in the
hands of the executive than it could be to a committee. He
should, therefore, be extremely glad to hear from government
that they would be ready to follow up the inquiries which had
been commenced by the last government, and that they would
not lose sight of the plans then proposed of the practicability of
consolidating the military and civil departments of the army
and ordnance, some of which were highly calculated to lead to
such reductions as had been made by his right hon. friend (Sir
J. Graham) near him in another branch of the service. (Hear,
hear.) He should be glad to hear if government was prepared.
to act on that view; but if not, and the hon. member would
bring forward his motion at a subsequent period, he would not
only give hi-m no opposition, but, as far as he could, be ready to
give him every assistance in his power.

Sir ROBERT Pe.sa. thought that on all for Mer occasions the
house had shown that consideration which was but just to the
circumstances under which a government was called upon to
administer the affairs of the public. 'When the present admi-
nistration took office in December they found many questions
unsettled. Among them he enumerated the English tithes, the
Irish tithes, and the dissenters' marriages, as questions that
were unsettled, and the state of Canada as untouched. Having
had all these questiOns pressing upon them for consideration,
the house ought not to be surprised if others had not as yet been
approached. Two notices of motions as amendments had been
given for that very day. The hon. member opposite (Mr.
Ward) had given notice of a motion for to-day for postponing_
the vote on 'the army estimates till after the vote on Monday
night. He hoped the hon. member would persevere with that
motion ; he believed it stood for to-night. Was it to cue on
after the hon. member for Middlesex's motion had beh dis-
posed of? (A pause.) He would take for granted that it was;
he hoped it was, because he thought that that would be a fair
and legitimate course by which the house could signify whether
they would or would not permit the government to continue in
the conduct of public affairs. He had never had greater anxiety
than he had had with respect to these repeated notices. Notice
was given on one day that the navy estimates should be post-
poned on the express ground that the house had no confidence
in the ministers; on the other, that the army estimates should
be postponed for the same reason ; and when last night he saw
the notice of the motion that the army estimates should be post-
poned till a vote was taken -on the noble lord's motion, he did
not then entertain a doubt that at last a decision would be irre-
vocably come to, and that the house would come fairly to the
question whether it would allow a vote tube taken for the num-
her of men, or whether it would insist on the postponement of
the business of the horse from want of confidence in govern-
ment. Ile did hope that a notice so recently, so deliberately
given, as that of last night,—given too by one who had taken,
as he was entitled to take, so prominent a part in connexion
with the Irish church—on the question whether or not they were
prepared to postpone voting the number of men required till
after the decision of Monday next—he did hope that, consider-
ing the position in which they stood, that hon. member having
deliberately given that notice, was prepared fairly to bring it
, under the consideration of the house. (Hear, hear.) The tune
had at length arrived when it was necessary for the house to de.,
•termine whether or no they would allow further obstructions to
be thrown in the way of the public service. On the 25th of
April the mutiny act would expire. They had, therefore, the
pover either .by direct motion, or by factions obstructions
(hear, hear,) of preventing the public business from being pro-
ceeded with. the hoped, from a regard to the character of the
House of Commons, the course they would take would be a
manly and straightforward course. (Cheers.) If they brought.
forward irrelevant motions for the sake of postponing the neces-
sary business of the country, it became them to consider how
far that was compatible With the dignity of the house, and the
advant?.genf the public service (hear, hear;) and if they were
determined to submit a motion of want of confidence, let the
house know the pounds on which they proposed it. (Hear,
hear.) To waste the time of the house by long and tedious de-
bates and frivolous Motions was note fair and legiiimate course
of opposition. ( Loud cheers.) It was a fair and legitimate
course of hostility for the House of Coinnsons to declare " We
have no confidence in your government, and we will not intrust
you with any vote or control of money," "and never," said the
right hon baronet, "did I punt for any motion as I do for that
(loud cheers,) and I am careless of what the issue of it may be."
(Great and continued cheers.) With respect to referring the
army estimates to a select committee, Sir Robert Peel said
that he never would consent to the precedent of withdrawing
those estimates from the annual revision of the house and trans-
ferring them to u committee up stairs, where, as Sir James
Graham had said, " if a government wanted to slur over an
objectionable vote, or make an imperfect explanation, they
would have a much better opportunity of doingitia a committee,
where the public scrutiny was not let in (hear, hear,) where
there was no irregular perhaps, but still very coercive, report of
debates. (Hear, hear.) If a governmeot, he said, wanted to
screen objectionable votes from inquiry, let them send them up
to a select committee, exercising an influence in its formation,
and establish theteby the fatal precedent of withdrawing those
votes for ever front the jurisdiction of the committee of the
whole house." There was no office of which it might not be said,
where is the objection to refer an examination of it to a coin-
mittee ? But the real question was, whether there should not
be made out a sufficient prima facie case. In the present in-
stance no case had been made out. After some remarks on the
business of the Commander-in-Chief's and War-offices. Sit
Robert continued as follows :—The remaining question was this
—whether he (Sir R. Peel) would undertake, on the part of the
crown, to consent to a committee of the House 'bf Commons to
inquire into the amalgamation of the civil departments of the
army and the ordnance, or to the appointment of a commission
for the purpose. He believed that he might now refer to what
he bait hitherto not thought himself entitled to refer to—the
communication which the noble lord (Russell) had been good
enough to make with respect to the result of an inquiry insti-
tuted by the late government. ' He did not think that he should
have been called on to discuss that question, and the reason
why he had alluded to the multifarious duties which had been
devolved on the preseut government was this—that considering
the early meeting of parliament after their appointment, many
matters must have escaped that serious and attentive considera-
tion to which they were entitled. It was only last ,might that
the noble lord (Russell) c'omplained that he (Sir R. Peel) was
universities,not prei
to proposered,hayingoprehem
edtheebaydmission of dissenters to the
prin-
ciple, admitting the reasonableness of‘tvhheiicrhep admittinga
c t n s
and the other could be carried practically into effect. He ad-
mitted the principle, he said, but could not pledge himself to a
measure with respect to the details of which he had had no op-
! poi tuuity of deliberately making up his mind. Nose, he had no
hesitation or shame in admitting that he had not given to that
subject that full consideration which it deserved. But he did
not see any necessary connexion which it had with ihe'vote of
the alloy and ordanee estimates. (Cheers.) The honourable
gentleman ought to give notice for a future day of his intention
to move for the appointment of -a committee for the purpose of
making the preliminary inquiries ; that Would not at all inter-
fere with the progress of the army estimates, or with the general
public business. (Hear, hear.) If on considering the evidence
adduced before the commission alluded to by the noble lord, for
the purpose of determining whether, on the pa i t of the executive
goverment, they should pursue that inquiry through the agency
of their own Members, or through the agency of a commission
constituted as the last had been, tie had afterwards to state, that
having read that evidence' he was of opinion that no' such
change should be made, amid that it was not necessary such an
inquiry should take place; the hon. gentleman would be et
perfect liberty to submit his proposition to the house. (Hear.)

Stich was the course which, as a Man oT GuiinetS'and a Minister,
►►e was.resolved to pursue on •the present occasion, not hav►ng
given the subject doe consideration, and hein firmly resolved
that he never would, as a minister, consent to establish a bad
prec;edent for t he purpose of escaping froui a temporary diilicu,tv.
((Theists.) That was all the promise he was able to give. lie
would consider the subject, and state on a future day the course
which government would pursue. The hon. gentleman would
then have an opportunity of bringing forward his motion fur a
Committee ou the subject with every advantage, and without in
the slightest degree interfering with the public service. (Hear,
hear.)

Mr. ELLics, after adverting to the dismissal of the late go-
vernment, soil the dissolution of the late parliament, conclutteil
by saying that the state of his health had not permitted him to
attend that house.lately, but from what he had seen government
were reduced to such a condition that they could carry no mea-
snre whatever, and if any opposition on the part of government
was started to a question brought forward by the Opposition, it
was sufficient toansure, its success. (Hear, bear.) How long
government was yet to remain in that htimiliating position was
a problem which the right hou. bert. only could solve. But they
would soon have au opportunity of testing tho..question an the
state of tho Irish church, which would come before them on
Monday next, and which called for an immediate decision.
Probably the right hon. hart. would then see What confidence
the house and the country had in the principles and policy to
which he had attached hiniself. ( Hear.)
Mr. Hums consented to withdraw his motion for the present,
without abandoning his intention of resuming it. on a future
occasion, as he still thought that the estitna.es should be re-
ferred to a select committee.

INIT WARD also abandoned his intended opposition to the
house going into committee.
The house then resolved itself into a committee. •
Mr. liqunics having previously gone into some explanations
respecting the redUctions Made by the late government, and the
intention of the present to pay every possible attention to the
changes contemplated by them, moved •` That it.was the opinion
of tht►t committee that a number of men not less than 81, 288,
be employed as his Majesty's land forces during the year 18:35.'t
Major BEAUCLERK moved, as an amendment, that the num-
ber should be reduced to 75,(X/) men. On. toil amendinent the
committee divided. The numbers were
For the amendment ..
Against it
Majority for the original motion --172
The following votes were passed :-
137,431 Os. 10d. for allowances to the principal of the public
departments of the army.
£9,440 for the Royal Military Asylum.
£1,275,675 to pay soldiers' pensions.
The house then resnmed.

Mr. Ewn KT moved that the house do adjourn.
' The motion W:l9 not put, and tho house proceeded to other
orders of the day.
Mr. RUTHVEN, jun. moved that the house do adjourn.
The motion was not put, and the hon. member repeated it.
The question was then put from the chair (ai we believe)but
Mr. PEAsu brought up a bill, the title of which we could not
hear.

Mr. RUTHVEN, sen. rose and called the attention of the chair
to the circumstance of the question of adjournment having been
moved, and, as he understood, put, notwithstanding which other
business was proceeded with.
A good deal of mirth was excited in the house by the Speaker
continuing to dispose of the question immediately before it,
whilst Mr. Rutbven was endeavouring to gain a hearing. At
length the question of adjournment was put from the chair, and
the house adjourned (amidst loud laughter) at a quarter to one
o'clock.

LONDON LAW REPORT.

COURT OF CHANCERY.-WEDNESDAY.

JUDGMENT—WARRRN V. BURTON.-The Lord Chancellor
gave a very elaborate judgment in this appeal this-morning,
stating that he was of the same opinion as his honour the V ice-
Chancellor, that this was not a case Of trifling importance;
indeed no questiowin which the inlerest of so large and respect-
able a bod_y as the society of 'Wesleyan methodists were in-
vOlVid Could be considered as of a minor. importance. His
lordship said the question to be decided embraced only two
points; the first was, whether the district committee ha'd the
power to suspend a minister;' and if they had such power whe-
ther they had properly exercised it in this particular instance in
suspending Dr. Warren. In order to arrive at a just conclusion
on these points he would abstain from making any comment on
the conduct of either party in this transaction, and merely go
through the whole of the regulations by which this society had
been governed from the death of the Rev. John Wesley up to
the present time. His lordship then proceeded to go through
all the rules, commencing with the year 1791, and comment-
ing at considerable length on the dill: rent bearings each had to
the other, and after again expressiug his deep regret that this
unfortunate dispute had arisen, concluded by saying be was
perfectly satisfied that the district committee had the power to
suspend preachers, and that it had legally exercised that power
in the present instance. He was, therefore, of opinion that the
Vice-Chancellor's judgment ought to be affirmed.—Judgment
aflirmot

'no crowd which assembled to hear this decision was un-
exampled in the history of courts of justice--it was with great
difficulty that the officers could preserve order, and the interior
of Lincoln's Inn-hall resembled the bustle of the Royal Ex-
change more than a court of justice.