The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-19 00:00:00

"MUSE. OF COIYINIONS.

MONDAY, APRIL 15.
The Speaker tools the chair at 12 o'clock, when Mr. Alder-
man Thompson and Mr. Penleaze took their seats.
The hotige was occupied in receiving petitions until 2•o'clock,
when the Speaker left the chair.
The Speaker resumed the chair at 5 o'clock.
Mr. WARBURTON brought up the report of the city of Lon-
donderry election„ committee, which, as we upderstooa the hon.
member, who spoke in an extremely low tone, stated that Sir
R. A. Fergusoiii.the sitting member, was duly elected, and that
the petition against his return was frivolous and vexatious.
The committee- had come to the following resolution—that an
extensive system of treating, accompanied by_other corrupt.
practices, had been carried on previously to and during the late
election, by a body calling itself the Independent Club, most of
the members being electors, and nearly. one-third of the num-
ber publicans, and all oppoSed to the interests of the . sitting
member, Who was not implicated in those, corrupt practices.
It. had also resolved that the conduct of George hill, Esq„
mayor and returning officer of the. city,, was highly irregular in
not verifying en oath the poll books delivered in as the original
pod books- used at the election, and certifying that they con-
tained no alteration, erasure, or addition, in compliance with
the Ist Gee.. IV, cap. 10; and, further, that the conduct of the
said mayor was irregular in not certifying, according to the
statute, on the back of the.retum the names of the candidates,
and the number of voters as they appeared aathe Mose of tt:
poll.
The report was laid:on the table,.and the..rainuteS of evidence
taken before the committee having .beet' brought up., by Mr..:
Warburten, were ordered to be printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL brought up the report of the Carrickfergus
election committee, which stated that Conway Richard Dobbs,
Esq. was not duly elected, that the late election for the town. of
Carrickfergus:was void, and that neither the petition nor the
opposition thereto was frivolous or vexatious. The- hoo..tnem-
her reported that the committee had cothe to a resolution that
there had been most gross and scandalous bribery and treating
on both sides at the late election, and aahOugh it (licit not.ap.pear
that Nit. Dobbs, persontilly,.foOk a part. in corrupt practices,
t his return had been procured by means of them through
his friends and agehts; that. a large .proportiou, of. the.cenati-
tummy had been Miluenced in their votes by:bribery; that cor-
rupt practices had. prevailed, not only. on, the occasion of the
late. election, but.at. former elections; that great
expense had been occasioned by delay in the production-- of
cestain,docurtients.required in the. progress of the .case.
The repOrt.having beenhrought up,
Mr. VeottltlELL Moved that the minutes of evidence which
he laid on the table be prihted, and stated that he had been
directed by the: cotkiniitice.to- move. heat the issuing of a new
writ. for Carrickfergus be .suspended till that day months they
beingunaniniously of opinion that a .case had been-made:Out
for altering the constittiency of the toWu, if .not fur totally
disfranchising it.
Writ suspended' till the 15thof •!May.:
The Itlaiquess Of .:Citaasnes. presented. a, petition frons
Abraham li iikinson and anoth'er individual, praying' that,the
time for. entering into retaknizances on the petition:against
die return of. Sir S.. Whalley for. Matylebone eularged.till
the 2-aid of April.—Laid on the table.
Sir it. lac:las,, in the absence of the noble lord the member
for Doractshirer postponed aim. second reading of the Factories'
Regulation Bill from to-morrow to the-22w1 instant.
NrTi Eitaik presented a pcititionfroearate-piyers,Of St. Giles's
in-the-Fields, and St, George's, Bloomsbury, against the Bill
authorizing the magistrates to pay a salary of 1:,1,'200 a year
to the chairman of. the Xitld.lesex quarter sessions.
Mr: INltatttay moved, in the absence of the. righChoa. meth-
her. for CoWntry, With consent of the parties, tispustpoue the
order of the day for a ballet. on the Stufford election petition
front tiainorrow till the 21st of May.—Agieed to,
Mr. Coon:T.1: gave notice, that he would to-morrow move -the.
printing of the petitions of Eadiard. Newsham,. James Roth-
, well, and James Dunm which, he had. presented on the Ist of,
April.
Lord ,Atiatoita gave notice for to-morrow of a motion for
leave to bring in a bill to enable persons to purchase small au-
; naiities by. means of the savings-banks.
On- thoorder. of the day for going into a. committee of supply.
being read, •
Mr. II esir. said, that having beard rumours of retirements
•• and promotions oil the juoiciat bench, he wished to remind the
noble loud opposite that the salaries of the judges.had been re-
peatedly augmented during the last 3d years, and to guard him.
a..,,atinst- burdening the country needlessly by new appoitlntents2
and to ask whether the salaries of any iudges to be appointed:
had been taken into consideration by govelunient.
Lord AiTtiotta observed that the hots. member must be
aware that the.present Lord Chief Justice of the king?s.liench
had been appointed with aaeduced salary.. He (Loin Althorp).
did not know of anything particular at the present moment to
justify, the qnestion put to lough and was dot prepared to give
any explicit answer.
13'Os,LFs said a few wards, which were not distinctly, heard:
in the gallery.
Sir • Nis W. ItioLEY said that it was necessary to. have high
salaries. for the judges, in .order to secure the servicesiof• good.
and able lawyers in such situations, for they could nototlierwise
expect leading and distinguished practitioners at the bar to
give up their professional emoluments, which, perhaps, tar ex+
ceeded the salaries attached`to suchices.

COMMITTEE OF al' PPEY—NA VT ESTIMATES.
The house then went into a committee of supply upon, the
navy -estimates.
6ir J ADZES GRAHAM, in proposing, the .first vote, said' he felt.
great pleasure in announcing, to the house that, notwithstand-
ing she reduction of £7OOO woich had been made under this
head (the Admiralty) last year, a still further reduction of
£17,000 was made in the pre,ent estimates, together with the
Ellin of LZ,'OGU arising horn fees, which -had been altogether
abolished; thus showing a reduction under this head during -tho
last two years of not less than £4)1000. lie had also the plea-
sure to inform the house that the balance sheet...for the last. Tear
was now upon the table of the house. It would show that the
estimates for the last year had not been exceedect; but, on the
contrary, that there was a considerable balance reulaining out
of. them. 't-he ri;.4litlion. baronet concluded by, moiling that
the suns of £l.o4,tiio should he grantedlor defraying the sala;•ies
of officers 'and'. contingent expenses of the Admiraity, fur the
veer 1,b33. -

Air. lit ME said, that as the hcuse had already decided' upon

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tZ•
,S*4

4

) ,

--. . . - . e..... _ ~. e •
'ad ean pnly one•executiou. Ili-183 14 2, oof glair
'acre h ad been. only fain exeditlobs'; and in. this
' believed it would be found that theae whirl Were
:editions for huusebreaking*ere in reaate -e-xecu-
;lary-. He had teen Informed That this was the
rity in whhar lie placed the Froatest confidence..
4e, Wane two -team in 'London and Middiesexi al
'mkt bean li2 convictions for this offence, 14''.!
orie irxeontion. It was true that it wits staled that
&32 one execution had taken Ideate :hut that etas a.
eaecuttota alluded to was that of Drewitt, anoi.
d
3 ertaittly nit housebreaking, but burglary.
arjee6l ViZ., lObbery, &c., no distinct mention was
the returns, but he supposed it was included under
Id of lareeny, are. And with reepeuttothat offence,
„' .„tetrt
le .es shots'? Why, that out of eight hunlrhundred'' wi had beeti convicted of taut offence in hag-
lee, fanner-at oniv had been executed. That in Ifielar,
ass tonvietett, none were executed. In 18d1, out
a
l'e., ativitted, only one was executed, and to) on.
rm and 141(allesea, during the. last three years,
but one exeetition, and during the two years pre-
• three wears there
had beets but erre executioa. in
'
'ere tlie:a,*AS exprestred, in the strongest paY,,ar.'le
‘
Pjeet aria called the tacit thsapprobation (a s
Il_
alseketnition of them. If in tile time of Sir S.
"21 been admitted to have been a grave eharg,e
aeti that nit One in twenty of Burge woo were con-
e'ellted, what could be said of a law of that sort
to 90 \vas executed? In such a state of things it
lb Pretend that the law could be any terror to
'e eriatieall, where-the chances were so trdeatiy
uk i
sure to calculate ou the chance of escape: tut
al the injured and the iimocent. Thods9ee
swnu(t). that
... tttw
ai,nto, the subject knelt that when its e
' alt te ' "owed, as it was said, to take its. course, the
blag „d, tO make many persons more suiwtiling to i f
ac.
kale, ilue)- Were before 'and to increase the number o
L',of al; ere there were pi' esecations nail to tiring about that.
A4l, eattlgs so well described by the present Archbishop of
'lleria "e says that he at w.th instances in his own neigh-
tkleiete 4bruleilrlle.. of ahneYbesttcharacter not only refusing to
kaa °alma. in every way to promote the escape or..the.
ajttici
tose the kw :L.
1 floutceddeath against the offences, and
itikatea,"' brrhgtherneebres to incur even the remote aed al- ,
;ariat's-arY riek of ea-,;me• g a thief to that fee. Ile twirl in
ttillit•-"Ille tables which-in 7 ed bevoral all poesibe
jitayrieosf
Ikke '')4
'' des
' PI"
' • .
I, thc,.,,,,.. , the tact of the unaillitignese of
slatia-;eaes arstrumental in giving effect to the eaugui-
t re
htiato Ilents err our code. The hononiable gentlemen' Mere
'alreae-tt exinnitatiun of Air Wrig,litson's tables, showing
[l') ottarLef ihdictruents itstel entre. ietions for a series of years.
,'lstaa -I. 4ttew, too, that the punishment of death had been
Itpla tiTeel Tuseiniv for tt period oC 1.10 years. It was re-
tai: -~a)".t'lis4anetalkiii!). 'or' BuonaParte, and hall not saniebe,en
I , inflicted. but
0 lle peil, woh it was very rare ) . , ertoa
Years • 'the not swell known was, that durang a p i
1,,,,,,ti in that state taking three periods of tlil Ye'''rs.--t le
tile 211gtle abolition, the '2-0 during' which it was abolished,
tb sill'
. -equentiv—fewer crimes had been conan .
44se Period of th -abolitionthan ' either the preceding
ai, 1414 . e
ethei -11 a CaSe which more home to tbernseet
l!th, r tre.ti feel;.came
oseat the, ....ngs, it was well known that during the
riev., noeble and kind-hearted man, Sir J'. Alm ki ro e
*hiss) 7r. to be mentioned without feelings of deep regret
(ttisirreeewda' 11-,, eeorder of Bninbay, a period of seven yews:,
Atever „".°L dehtiravas entirely discontinued. It the exe
• a 0, ,-as te fail, its failure. might have been expected
°,f a 11,-I.re as clalihay—a. ereweled finlian sea-pprt, c2tri;
, resoh;e(l-i and even „hif.tinz population. but
.11, ha
(lscia,.
~t•
from t had been most saa •eattful, for Sir J. Mack-
to r -e" Thetl beach nitt-:- his'l - charge, when he was
he is eavitgland; that the '4t
etlitn
to
' in
dlisatsrirt had been gto.vcetirinaeed.'
W4S* at
iee,tl4letshrnent, and with -no-increase.° -
bite. ader :- , not at that moment advocating any such
ritteh aeon in th • all he asked was, to make
Celizaseligtheenpacra.tracteicract.s epi;:'errilab.,:!'tod-Vartii‘ta, with a few excep-
t° bring iu a bhl,
ttli t3thre ti'liTitt(uoefret°fleboliseh.°thhtdeajpeunishment of death alto-
pl of death to ,aive the
?' ila--1)."-er at aria discretion punishing the crim-
-1 veafisorunent aria
Iterikrs, or by imnriesoa u labour, or by transportation for
44
till li afterward', 11.i'llnent an hrd labour first, and
-* .ed that, under such
tee, at, Crillle '•
. e was c°ll"nc • f being pu-
tes,lll the, now would be much more certain o
la,' abject' : were, which every one would admit to be
aawbsr.'Sa "li': be
aimed at in all legislation with a view to
re, 14a iti a eL. hen. member concluded by moving for
le -°. kV - "11l for the repeal cf so much of the 7th and
141111 ed eeter-'an,.. 29,enacts, that if any person shall
a Y, or . aadwelling-house and steal therein any chat-
kitt,3',,soehtt,4l,ollable eenu-rity, to any value whatever, or shall
l'e-i',,411Y p4lertY, to any value whatever, in suchaot"R eort,ins,'° the being put in fear, every.
a of-
r q lteuroe..cyp''`ed thereof shall suffer death as a tele .
k (if' -!. ~rhui,ipEltat expressed his desire to see the se-
'kt bur %lelelite eode mitigated, but thought. that for all
tl; eltkg-la.re, ante,
those Which threatened life—such as
be " the n„71.14 ercon—the punishment of death ae-
i (lisp ns --,'tal feelings of mankind, and could not
eitZ;lliell,tileal Led' ae:'"l,' It (maid not be denied that the severity
ti 'etlautia-•°` Engla.nd, as it stood some years age,.
le tbaalized
Iv
_lnjurious to tins national character througlhl-
a-,",easures hail but it -must not be fo.rgotten that ii tat,s3 hap„ ,_ (1 beeri adopted for mitigating that severity,
't ti. Seii,,eflit'•e„..Ta:.aY, that even since the present ministers
''Were'l'' horse '• session for instance—coining, forgery,
La% an ea ,se-stealing and robbery in a dwelng-house., ,ke.-LeOly --fttal Offence's, were made punishable by.tra.ns-
,:klr tt• le Arould adail it th severity of' the criminal
Ilartld el saat;etY be still fu sheer miti,onted. The-country
Ilitaais'4,,,..ou,iigation, to tl r ri'ght hob. member for Tam-
a' CI leh\Lt'otla on this sTilanct • but he was at a loss to t.,t)tltee,„"et.bad. increased ihe severity of the law in the
dtielle 0-fra'‘, 11)g. As the law now stood; if a boy shentld
Itt.), 4eal a Tess in the shop of a pastrv-cook in the day
e et ti - uutt, he would 'f the shop door were fastene.d,
iW4frell CaUestir •k• 1
he user 4tae of e ee ing. It, however, appeared to him
e pre . otering a.- house and putting the inhabitants
illce,3 ot elaely the same character as•highway roDoe y, 'rest'.athe4 lass to understand why there should be a_tiy
rvet i'lloishrnent a i lied to the two offences. fie
ktill, th:th,itliself the right of proposing-ata future stage
/ fta'll the-
,It should bel-eontined to the 'Offence of house-
' tZtshl '4Y-time without putting any*person in fear.
4 .4 tfee that the house should proceed with some deli-
lair4t,tb,er%ttltbieca: He really felt' some degree of appre-
,,/ atctoere were of motion on the paper for amendmentsia
'eel:es:4 I.i,er.e no less thanten relative to'the ertinul
e, -ell. toe "`,ll'e to the civil law. Would it not be bet-
e c 4.4 ore4trS WllO had given these notices toot wait a
wt,0,4.a
i,o aee whether some plan m,ighti na b de•
kato.:, `VaeN".°lform revision of the laws . ( I
rl that out tnti,rely concurred in the
.stiggest:
4t. it. . y tne e
•11,11aorio7it'ili'l
tbe acted by e"; which
anhhar.)
on. and-learned t•soheitoi-General,
thcscrto whom i
.r
S.
t l'e Sit J. 11: 1.41.5 t 20 veers he ppot Q
Weehbaa to; -cattltoSif. in their retorts to reform the
qaa „",„offeee,,a)s' thought that a broad distinction ex-
ora-aiett'b's directed against propertv, Which, anigli
Vltialfshaiatetstt,lYaeclutlev,l,4..anhc d those which- no precaution
dieposed.to.apply
41111i''1.1(111P bis-ta to both tiiselnffoetiniceeasn:s Every individual
!k house 5h01114,33e had a 8
right to expect that the pro,r-
tree o.aliclette .Protected. In his opinion, a robber
ISii e food n
.e pith.ttiey,iii persons in fear ought tubeplaccd
lesitPli'd b gr, ?sPeet:t puniihment as a highway.
iey at thee -airy t ° house ganctimr the- prltl-
Ject sh , • prese 0 see the ...
asi.... (nll4. be rarPt moment, and-he thought._ that the
e;:..,:adtnine:eufpttoblini•:;l;rireed to a committee, which would
It -n.theoglit -a-ttaiw oqf • of the crown.
house could arrive at no usefulo
lttuitticisbluents s-h-ats subject until a regular system f
i Itt ft.tssaa sahieutal have been- adorned. _ - Oin ;31.° gore n ' toat if the- bon: member for at a.idon•
'kri`t9'ated to ir tetir an assurance that •a. commission
vise hi,,,„ me
iltibligilt th'"e tit° Zit-J;(7r into- all offences--againstproperty,
t aw his motion; but at the same
it't•,, dell
herse.„Part of- the lion- Member's proposition
60it,4 .Lueelered-r.s. 'Prepared ao accede to it: at m.
44 tue rigour of the favourable to all propositions
tial;niP°wer be„.7l',l.etarimirral code: It was said that
eht) eut he
0r,...-elen the -severity. of the laws might
NI ttl, of ase Jetted to the mitigation being lett, t
a ) the ex„„
..tribenaL
(Ilear.a• The hon.anam-
leg- their ci`"Prileiwllicb other countries were settings
i.. bstractrly:fiao.ll,jititrib:_p,ltrele. and observed; that,
illikhul, a. naid
s ' that in allicao:il:l:tri
were mild cosi 1aw,,.; ctnitlareOduced•npon the total-
s good, lideause Wired
where such codes existed, the
ettineaa said that
thou
'manners. (limn) .
l'a to Etulibeject beferieun&tell (hear:)
was tinaegaaintedavridtheeit)ll;
-R aie - People of T., louse,. it was tine •,... _
~u
!to it. w WONS eho -L-I,.alaud that he could ma. refrat biche his. ow,' 4 tale occasion. Eecry gentleniati
la ie ir,o,id stiEiLler°ject fLOr 't tin the lan, and he,
With th•l'e'Y hart,,before he saittedraagir, and W•bich fair-
" Is sae'. p irer& was one deep;
jeet whlab: exeited- hid diapleaaute, he.

0 '1
e
iltLt
uaC t
'0 to
la

had almost said disgust, tied that. was the everlasting references
to France and Ametien, iu snider to influence the opinions of
:people in England, which had set au example .to the whole.
' \Multi of framing laws for ensuring the liberties of mankind L--.
Elngland, which was laid to have been the cradle of liberty.
Whs should we be always looking abroad to see what other
countries were thinking of us, and to see What America, and,
ktbove all, what France was doing? As to what France Was,
doing relative to the anielioration of the lags he knew nothing,
stbd wisliesl to known untiring, but front the accounts which he'
had seen dale manner in which juitice was diepenSed in French.
Omuta, he would say, the Lord deliver him from French courts'
of justice. (A laugh.) Han. nieinbers who boar:it:6d so much of
the excellence of thc,laws in America did not seem to be aware•
that they were no other than the—English laws. At the time
the independence of the United states was established they
made a solemn. bargain that they ghotild enjoy the common
and-statute'law of Isuglasid, 'which they oraiwea as their birth-
sight. Gracious God tinder these circinutalices was it not a lit-
tle too much that Men should go to America to learn how to make
daces for this country? Acargo of lair was shipped from Liver-
pool to 'America to be mixed up with the law there, but he
hoped that they would laugh at the stuff when it should be
brriaghtlmek. He had liven hi America about ten years and a
half altogether, and was acquainted with mans, intelligent per-
sons there, and ationgst -others with severallawyers, and they
all concurred in stating that every departure, which had been
made from the law of England was a change for tee worse.
NoTirftirlirtiloreet Pik iittehng The law. It Iris this: he word&
go back to the period when Geo. 111. ascended the throne, and
titkimg all the acts whiCh had been 'passed sihce that tune relative
to the criminal late, he Weld(' fling them into thelire. (A laugh.)
It was with surprise he had heard the Sodeitor-General, for
whom he entertained Sortie • respect, because he believed his in-
tentions to be good,—it Wits With some surprise that -he heard
'him talk of fiirthersmitigations of the-severity of the criminal
cede. Vaal had belntssaid, for litany years past, of softening
the crintiaial code, but he had watched the' proceedings of Par-
. hamert pretty closely, and as far as related to the common
. •
people, he had seen that code, at every roiling round-of the' un,
grow harder and harder towards then). Din lint the Solicitor-
t.leneral kiioiv that magistrates, at their quarter sessions, could
now transport a man for seven years foe poaching? (Hear.)
To be sure the punishinent of the •pilloiy had been abolished.
In a thoughtless moment the judges sentenced a lord to stand
in the pillory. It was immediately discovered to be a-barb-aro& •
and inhuman punishment,—tme which could •only have been
thought of by our ignorant ancestors, and it was put an cud to
at once. Another lord put an end to his existence, and the
practice of buiving suicides in cross-roads was not long suffered
to continue. He waS;sometlines wicked enough to wish that a
lord. would 'go out poaching, and then the cruel laws on that
subject Would be abolished to a certainty. (A laugh.) Was it
not monstrous that a man could he transported for seven years
Or being in pursuit of a hare or a pheasant, which, iu law as
Well as in reason, was as much the property of the poor as of
the rich? (" No, no.") He questioned whether any lawyer
would cry " No;" the Solicitor-General would not. He re-
pezted that genie was the property of all mankind—of the poor
as Well as of the rich. There was another little law under which
a mall could be hanged for resisting a earngkeeper; but he
never heard of any attempts to mitigate its severity. A man
who defended himself against a gamekeeper who wished to take
him, in order to have him transported for following a hare, was
guilty of a capital offence. This was a new law, not one framed.
by our ignorant ancestors, and under it no less than forty men
had, within the last twenty years, been hanged by the nobility
and gentry of England, in order to preserve their game. (thir-
Murs.) Ay, let that resound in their ears when they were talk=
ing, about softening the criminal code. They had not that law
in America. Formerly it was a capital offence to break into a'
hobo and steal to the value of 12(1.; that sum was subsequently
raised to 40e.; but the persons who made the alteration did not
Consider the change which had taken place in the.value of mo-
tley, for at the time the law was enacted 12d. would buy two tat
sheep. It had been said that crime in this country had in-
cl.-eased in consequence of the want of education. He had hoped
never again to hear that asserted, because nothing could be
mitre contrary to the fact. Let any person draw four columns,
and set down the amount of taxes, of poor-rates, of crime, and
of education, at the period when George 111. ascended the
throne, anti at the present moment, and he would find that they
had ail gone on increasing together. It was impossible for any
one who did not blind himself to the fact to fail to pereeiVe that
taxation was the cause of the increase of crime. The hon.
Member for Maldon had talked of the want of a country police.
He was sorry to .hear a country gentleman utter such senti-
ments. At the time the hon. member was born no one felt the
Want of a country police. England had for centuries mocked
at the French on account of their gendarmerie, who acted. as
*pies on the soldiers as well as the people,. and now it was pro-
posed to introduce them here. The gendarmerie, however, did
not prevent the burning of the title-deeds of the nobility, and
driving them out of the country, and, if Parliament did not re-
trace its steps, the establishment of a country police, and the
patching up of the criminal code, would not prevent the occur-
rence of similar events in England.
Mr. HILL regretted that a man of the talents of Mr. Cobbett
should clothe himself in the worn-out vocabulary of prejudiced
invective, so long worn only by the ignorant and the malevolent.
If the hon. member's argument was good for anything, it was
for their returning omnino to the state of things which obtained
in his lauded golden era of 1776. They should re-adopt the
bloody penal code of that period; they should re-enact the ca-
pital punishments for minor offences then in force, with all the
baneful consequences of such sanguinary enactments. The
hon. member had referred to the governments of America and
France as superior tosthose of England. Pray, when did the
hon. member make the discovery of the superior itv of the insti-
tutions of France and America ? There was a writer whom he
(Mr. Hill) had read with much advantage, who had, over and
over, ably and eloquently maintained the very opposite, and
that, too, as au observing eye-witness, and that writer was Wil-
liam Cobbet. (" Hear," and a laugh.) Why will a man so
gifted thus descend to pander to the worst prejudices of man-
kind, whether to-day against the Jews, or to-morrow against the
French ? (Hear, hear.) He would give the motion before the
house his best support, because experience had demonstrated
that a certain minor punishment was a far more effectual pre-
vention of crime than our present uncertain severe one.
Leave was then given to bring in a bill.
CHURCH REFORM.

Mr. FAITHFULL, pursuant to notice, rose to submit to the
house-a proposition in reference to the established church. His
resolution divided itself into three heads, each involving a se-
parate principle of-great public importance. The first was, that
the church of England, as by law established, was not recom-
mended by practical utility; the second, that its revenues have
always been subject to legislative enactments; and, thirdly,
that the greater part, if not the whole, of these revenues, ought
AO be appropriated to the relief of the nation. The resolution
:was not brought forward by 'him in any spirit of prejudice or
hostility to the church of England. It requited no great acute-
ness to distinguish the church from the establishment: he re-
verenced the one—he detested 'the latter. Up to the period of
the Protestant Reformation the clergy were considered to be
entitled to only one-third of thntithes, which were divided•into
three parts—one•fOr the church, one fur the poor, and the other
• for God's servants. The greater part of our church revenues
were derived from our Catholic ancestors, and had been trans-
ferred to the Protestant' clergy- by act hf Parliament. Could
this have been done if they were not nati,,nal property? The
hun. member then proceeded to.itiveigh -against, the arm-Chris-
tian character of the exorbitant church revenues of England,
and to liken -the • church of England, in tins particular, to-that
of Rome. Many lion. members urged a system of reduction of
taxation upon ministers. But what was the noble lord to do ?
Was he to sponge out the national debt, or put down the army ?
Ifthe national debt 'was to remain, if the army was to remain,
and the navy-was. to remain, it was the highest inconsistency to.
call upon his Majesty's ministers to reduce • taxation. By his
plan the national creditor might be relieved, and the people
might be relieved; but it was not possible to. carry. on the pre
sent system-without some appropriation of the public property.
The hon. member then moved his resolutions.

Mr..ConnEwrseconded the motion.
Lord ALTuoitp said that the house would hardly expert that
heshould ,answerthe.speechotthe hou member. (Loud cheers.)
Lie Should merely say that,. as the him. member was a Dissenter
acrd he (Lord.Althoip) was.a churchman, it could be easily un-
derstood that in a question—whether the church of-England was
a good church or not they mutt differ. (Hear.) There was
another point on Which they differed. The hon. member said
that this was a motion of gycat importance; he differed frUni
him in that. (Cheers and liughter.) He should therefore not
detain the house by attetripting to enter into a discussion
,(hear), which, howeverit might suit a polemical it,sseinbly, was
hardly fit for the consideration of that house. (Clc2eri.)
. Coi.as:it observed that tilt noble lord'had 'said- that the
house would 'hardly expect bititto-nnSwer dee-speech of the.hOn'.
member. ,Ile (Mr. Cohbett) did .not expect him to answer it
either. (Laughter.)
Mr. D. NV. HARVEY -said. that; although he was-a Dissenter,
,and had beeicediicated 'as a nonconformist; and was prepared to
subscribe to the abstract proposition 'of the hon: gentleman, he
cutild not agree ru
to it in his teis, for he had prejudiced'thed
ii-
cusSiOn and' njured the princiiile °tale argument he had labour-
„ed to establish, by, pointing.out the abuses of the church instead
of insisting on the paramotairright of the Protestant Dissen-
ters to the exercise-orprivatejlidinient: He was not prepared
' to say that the church of Engtand:was at:Variance with prattf-

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