The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-06-25 00:00:00

subjects, that the measures would be modified and altered so as to
afford them better chance of being carried in their lordships' house.
In order to bring the question as clearly as he could before their
lordships, he called on them to consider the situation in which
they were placed with respect to this important subject. Their
lordships would recollect, that at the commencement of the last
session of Parliament this subject was considered by his Ma-
jesty's ministers of such vast importance, that it was made men-
tion of in his Majesty's speech from the throne, and in such a
manner, too, that every one thought ministers were prepared
with some measure relative to it.. But his Majesty's ministers
were not governed by such vulgar prejudices. They were not
prepared with any such measure; but they proposed, in both
Hopes of Parliament, a select committee to investigate the
subject, to examine witnesses, and to report thereon. These
committees immediately assembled, and commenced operations
with activity, diligence, and ability; and each committee made
two reports to their respective houses. As to the first of these
reports made to their lordships last February be should say
nothing. He had animadverted on it at the time, chiefly on
account of a most objectionable term which it contained—a
term which had created much evil and caused much'bloodshed;
but the s,econd report to their lordships, which was made in June
last, contained much valuable information, and he greatly ap-
proved of it. Ile should take the liberty of reading one short
extract (the only one lie meant to read) from the report of the
committee of the House of Commons, which had been commu-
nicated to their lordships' house. The reports of the two com-
mittees were very similar, but he preferred that of the House of
Commons, because it was most explicit. It said, "The com-
mittee recommended that the following measures be adopted by
Parliament with as little delay as possible. It is expedient,
without loss of time, that separate bills should be introduced—
first, to render the Tithe Composition Act permanent and com-
pulsory; second, to enable the clergy to relieve themselves;
and, thirdly, for the commutation of tithes for land." When
this was made known, he asked whether it was the intention of
ministers to introduce those three bills in that session of Parlia-
ment, and the noble earl and the Lord President of the Council
answered most decidedly "that it was." This occurred nearly
at the end of June; and he believed that the intention of minis-
ters was what they had stated. One of those bills was introduced
in that house, and had passed through Parliament; but only
one of them, it should be observed, had passed in the last ses-
sion. He did not blame ministers for not doing more last ses-
sion. He did not expect them to do impossibilities; and, at the
time, he thought it was impossible for them to carry the three
bills at that late period of the session. What he blamed them
for was, that during the interval between the last session and
this present 21st June,—being an entire year from the time when
he put the question,—not one word was said by any member of
the government in either house of Parliament on the subject.
It was proposed, in the other house, that the enforcement of
tithes should be caused to cease altogether ; that an advance of
money should be made for arrears of tithes and composition of
tithes, for 1831 and 1832, and for the income of the clergy for
1833; and it was intended and proposed to pay the country for
this advance by an imposition of land tax. By this plan the
defaulters, those who had by fraud, by violence, by every mode
of intimidation, exempted themselves from the payment of
those just dues, would be effectually screened; while the pro-
prietor of the soil, who had always been the assister and pro-
tector of the clergy, and who had performed his duty, would be
oppressed. If they placed the burden on the defaulters, it would
be returning to the act of lust session under a new name. It
would be doing that which his Majesty's ministers were least
likely and least inclined to do,—it would be flying in the face
of that mountain party who are opposed to all conciliation, be-
fore whom governnaeut were crouching and trembling, and
whose mischievous measures they, in no small degree, assisted.
But it was not stated by whom this advance was to be ulti-
mately borne—whether by the lords of the soil in possession of
the land, or by the various intermediate persons standing be-
tween him and the immediate occupier. That was not stated,
because it was a great and arduous question. The resolution
was brought forward, and he supposed the bill to be founded on
it would partake of the same character, in this crude, undi-
gested, and unformed shape, in the hope that, in going through
Parliament, arliament, it would be altered and improved, and, in some
way or other, rendered more passable. Ministers brought their
rough blocks from the Downing-street quarry, that statues
might be manufactured out of them by artists more able and
skilful than themselves. The plan now proposed involved as
gross a spoliation of the landowner as ever was effected by the
most arbitrary government. What would be the result to the
lay impropriitor, now that tithes were declared to be a nuisance
which ought to be abolished? Np provision was made for the
lay impropriator of tithes. He saw a noble marquis on the
cross-bench, (the Marquis of Westmeath,) who, he believed,
was a great owner of lay impropriations, and he certainly flat-
tered himself that he would vote with' those who meant to
oppose the measure. This was not the case of Don Pedro ver-
ices Don Miguel,—no, it was a case of property versus spoliation;
and he was convinced that the good -sense and justice of the
noble lord would lead him to vote with him (the Earl of Wick-
low) on this occasion. Then, the third class of persons who
would be affected by this proceeding was the clergy themselves.
He defied any man who looked into the provisions of this reso-
lution to view it in any other light than as an insidious bribery
of the church. (Hear, hear.) Ministers wished to bribe the
clergy to give up that right to the soil which the church had
possessed more firmly and for a longer period than noble lords
had possessed their estates. He believed that the noble lords
opposite had never intended to enter into a systematic attack on
the rights and interests of the church; but it they had taken of-
fice in the government for the purpose of destroying the church,
they could not have pursued more effectual means than that they
had adopted. When ministers entered office he would assert and he
defied contradiction, that resistance to tithes in Ireland was scarce
ly perceptible. He knew that there was an unwillingness to pay
tithes, just as there was an indisposition to pay rent, or to pay
any species of tax; but there was no more objection to tithes
than to any other impost in that country. The coercion bill
was now in operation; and he approved of it, not on account of
the punishment which it inflicted, but on account of the confi-
dence it inspired. A clause had been introduced into that bill
iu the course of the discussion elsewhere, which in some degree
impaired and defeated its efficacy. He blamed ministers for
allowing it. They well knew who the parties were that cla-
moured for it. They were not the representatives of the people,
but the representatives of priests and demagogues, selected from
bullock-sheds, attornies' offices, and clerks' offices in the coun-
try. lie felt great respect for all the votes of the other house:
if they declared that the malt-tax was a nuisance, and should
be abolished, he respected their vote ; and if, the next day, they
arced that it was not a nuisance, and ought not to be abolished,
still he respected the vote of that honourable house; .in short,
he respected all their votes. But he confessed that he felt no
small degree of surprise when this plan was introduced to the
House of Commons, that no man of landed property in Ireland
(for there were in the house some men of landed property,) not-
withstanding the reform bill, rose and solemnly protested against
it. This resolution, however, had not yet passed into a law,
and he ventured to say, that even in the other house of parlia-
ment the measure would still be well considered and strenuously
opposed before it came into their lordship? house. When it
came before their lordships he should do his duty. It was a
measure fraught with injustice and cruelty, and he should op-
pose it in every stage. His lordship concluded by moving "for
a return of all sums collected by government to facilitate the
payment and recovery of tithes due to the established church in
Ireland."
Viscount MELBOURNE said that the speech of the noble earl
who had just sat down afforded in itself a convincing proof of the
impolicy of entering into a discussion on a matter which was not
fully betore the house. If the noble earl had waited until the sub-
ject had been brought forward in a defined shape, he would have
avoided some of the errors into which he had fallen on this occa-
sion. He admitted that the measure which government had intro-
duced last year with respect to tithes was a fair subject of ani-
madversion. That measure was a transfer of the arrears of tithes
to the crown, in the hope that the passive resistance, as it was
called, which had been made to their collection, would not be
continued when they were considered as debts to the crown.
That measure had not answered the expectations which were
conceived of it. Of the whole sum of £140,000 there had been
only £12,600 collected, and that at an expense exceeding the
amount. Under these circumstanees, and in the hope of put-
ting an end to the disputes so constantly recurring in the cols
lection, it was thought better to introduce this measure, which,
it was hoped, would have the effect of altogether puttin an end
to that resistance to tithes which had always existed in-Ireland.,
This was to place the tithe as a tax on the land. The noble
earl had given it as his opinion, and no doubt it was sincere,
but he (Lord Melbourne) must deny that the present Govern-
ment had done any thing to increase the opposition to tithes.
14 was, he repeated, time that this question should be viewed
in a statesmanlike manner. It was due to the Protestant
establishment that the question should be placed on such a
footing as would prevent that ill-feeling towards it which
the collection of tithe had generated ; it was due to the
Catholic majority of Ireland that they should be released
from those vexatious proceedings, which were, in present
circumstances, almost unavoidable ; and it was due to the
Protestant majority of the empire to place the establish-
ment on a sure foundation. The situation of Ireland, with
respect to the collection of tithes, was unparalleled in the
history of nations. That •system had
.given rise to turbu-
lence and disorder, which, 'for the security of the empire, it
was necessary to put an end to by some means; of course,
the first duty of the Government was to put down turbu-
lence, to restore peace, and then to legislate against the re-
currence of that disorder and turbulence as far as they could.
They. had, as the result of that deliberation, determined upon
bringing forward the measure which had been sanctioned by the
adoption of the resolution proposed to the other House of *Par-
liament. The measures which would be consequent on the
adoption of that resolution were not yet. in a state to come
reedy under the consideration of their lordships; but he trusted
they, Were such as would be approved of when they did come
before them. At all events, he did hope that noble lords
would wait until they were before them in that shape in which
alone they could enter into a full discussion of their merits.
(Hear, heat.)
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that if the noble viscount
who had just sat down had entered into any satisfactory expla-
nation of the measures which it was the intention of govern-
ment to adopt on this important question, he should not have
felt it necessary to offer a word in reply to what had fallen from
him; but in the whole of what the noble lord had said he found
; explanation at all. He found' that the tithe due to one body
of men was to be compensated by a tax on another. That, no
doubt was simple proposition; but this was what his noble
.friend (the Earl of Wicklow) complained of, that no explana-
tion was given Of how this was to lie done. By the act of the
last session the clergy could not collect the tithe. If the Go-
vernment intended to repeal that act, the clergyman might pro-
ceed to collect his tithe, if he could, after all that had taken place
on the subject. The noble viscount had not given any explana-
tion on this subject, because, in fact, he did not know what the
bill stated, or what was intended to be done with respect to it. The
resolution which had been submitted to the other house was, as
it now stood, that a land-tax should be levied for the payment
of tithe; but who was to pay it? Who, he asked, was to
pay it? Was it the landlord? He would beg of noble lords to
consider what would be the effect of asking the landlord in this
country to pay the tithes on his land for three years. It was
calculated that the average of the tithes in Ireland did not
amount to more than two shillings the acre. He would ask—
, and he was aware that some of the noble lords opposite pos-
: ssesed an immense extent of land in Ireland—what landlord of
.that country was now ready to pay the tithes of three years
—to pay to the amount of 6s. or 7s. per acre on his land?
They saw that if they deprived the clergy of their property,
they themselves would be taxed to make it good.- Their lord-
ships would in a few days be called upon to consider a proposi-
tion for giving compensation to a large class of individuals who
were to be deprived of their property, and he would beg of their
lordships to consider and to inipress the same thing on their
neighbours, that if they deprived otheis of their property they
would as an almost necessary consequence lose their own. But
he was sure that the noble viscount was mistaken in the ground
of his charge against some portions of the Protestant gentry.
He was sure that they had too much attachment to the church
and to the security of their own property to join in any measure
: to deprive the clergy of theirs.
Earl GREY said that •when the noble earl (Wicklow) gave
notice of a motion on this subject he (Earl Grey) did not un-
. derstand that it was for the sake of division, but for discussion.
He had asked hiMself what object the noble_earl could Have for
introducing such a discussion under such circumstances, and
the only answer which his ingenuity could suggest was, that it
would furnish the opportunity of dealing out reproach and in-
vective against the government, though without any real ground
on which to go. In that conjecture he was fully borne out in