The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-02-27 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.-FRIDAy.

The adjourned debate on the state of Ireland was re-
commenced by the ATTORNEY-GENERAL (Sir F. Pol-
lock), who explained the reasons by which he had him-
self been induced to postpone a revenue trial alluded to
by Sir T. Wilde, observing that it was only under special
circumstances, involving some real hardship on the de-
fendant, and not upon every light suggestion, that he
should think it right to consent to such postponem(nt.
He gave a manly exposition of the principles on which,
at the outset of his official career, Sir R. Peel had coun-
selled him to act, and of the way in which he had fol-
lowed that advice, looking not to the mere letter of the
law, but to the general considerations of justice and
mercy. He animadverted with much pleasantry on Mr.
Macaulay's disclaimer of the legal character and profes-
sion; and having expressed his admiration for the talent
evinced in the right hon. and learned member's late
speech, he commented upon its remarkable deficiency in
point of practical suggestion. Addressing himself to the
subject of the Irish trials, he exposed the absurdity of the
complaint that the case had not been left to a common
jury : indeed be should as soon have thought of taking a
case of high treason to he tried at the quarter sessions.
Mr. Sheil had made a mistake in speaking of the special
jury as selected : the 48 names were first taken by ballot,
then reduced to 24 by a strike of 12 on each side, and
again reduced from 24 to the final 12 by another ballot.
The resort to a special jury in this case had been sanc-
tioned by the unanimous opinion of the law officers on
both sides of the Channel ; and if the lots had fallen un-
fortunately for the traversers, that result was no ground
of imputation upon the prosecutor. Ile had himself, at
Carmarthen, set aside no fewer than 30 persons called

upon a conamon jury; he had been obliged to do that,
because he had received credible information that a great
number of the, persons on that panel had been out in the
riots ; he had been enabled to do it, because his conduct
on former prosecutions had been honoured with the
.ap-
probation of parliament, and " character was strength. '
But that could not have been chine to the full extent in
Dublin, by reason of the extraordinary exciteelent pre-
vailing there; and thus public justice required, that in-
stead of taking common jurors, the Crown should refer
the subject to a special jury, where the process would be
by striking, and not by challenging. Now he admitted
that, emteris paribus, a Roman Catholic juror on the
Irish trials would have been preferable for the Crown to
a Protestant; but here ecrlera were not paria. He ad-
mitted that the duty of the law officersshould be executed
with deference to public opinion ; but to leave on the jury
a man who had eigned a requisition for a repeal meeting,
would ha re been to merge that duty in a spurious libe-
rality. He much regretted that a notion should have been
circulated of any intention to insult the Roman Catholics:
DO man, not even Mr. Shell himself, bad a mind more
alien from such a wish. He vindicated the common law
from Sir T. Wilde's attack upon it. The trial by jury
rested on the common law, and the trial by jury
was the foundation of public opinion. The decisions
of the Judges, proceeding on no statute, but on the
principles of this common law, had fixed the most im-
portant grounds of British liberty—had put an end to
general warrants—had settled the right of the imported
slave to freedom—had abolished the state of villenage
throughout this realm. The doctrine of conspiracy was
as old as the law of England ; and he vindicated the rea-
sonableness and utility of it. It had been said, why did
you not indict for attending an illegal meeting? It was
well that such a course bad not been taken ; for thii jury,
to whom such blind partiality had been imputed, had
refused to find that these meetings were illegal; and if
there had been an acquittal on that ground, you would
now have possessed no check on the repeal movement.
Why not have prosecuted for libel ? He owned that he
did not like the present law of libel; it was his habit to
dissuade even private prosecutors from proceeding upon
it • and prosecutions for public libel had been disused not
only by himself but by all the law officers for a consider
able time. He hoped he should not get into disfavour by
showing that be had himself, on one occasion or other,
done almost all the things charged against the Irish
Attorney-General. For instance, with respect to the
challenge to the array, he had done at Cardiff just what
the ;fish Attorney-General had done in Dublin; he had
demurred to such a challenge. It was a challenge on
account of fraud by persons unknown. There was no
possibility of trying such an allegation, therefore there
was no course but to demur; and he would cordially share
the responsibility of the Irish Attorney-General. It was
alleged in this debate that Mr. O'Connell had not had a
fair trial ; let that be proved, even now, and in the next
term a new trial would be granted him by the court. This
was the proper and constitutional answer to the imputation
of unfairness. He was sincerely anxious for the welfare
of Ireland, but he held that it might be accomplished with-
out invasion upon the church. On the subject of educa-
tion he would go to the fullest extent; he felt that to the
relief of the necessities of the poorer country there ought
to be no limit but the means of the richer. He insisted
on the preservation of the union, and urged the necessity
of a harmonious and cordial co-operation of parties. This
speech, both in its progress and when he concluded it,
was cordially cheered from both sides of the house.
Mr. O'CONNELL said be was not about to speak of him-
self : he had come for a different purpose—to make a pro-
testation and to ask a question—to protest against any new
wrong to his country, and to ask how Ireland was to be
governed. Before the union she had an independent par.
liament of her own. If she had been raised to a more
prosperous condition by the union, then let the wisdom of
that measure be praised ; for Mr. Pitt's argument in re-
commendation of it was, that it would increase her pros-
perity. What was the result? Mr. Kohl, in his work, as
quoted by The Times of the preceding day, had attested
that her condition was worse than that of the most desti-
tute countries in Europe. There were other testimonies
to the like effect, and particularly the opinions of the poor
law commissioners, who had shown that about one-third
of her whole population was in a state of pauperism. The
ratio of population from 1830 to 1840 had been actually
less than in the ten years preceding. Little would he care
for what had passed on the late trials, if he could open the
eyes of the wise and good in England to the real state of
Ireland. At all events he could never forget, and he
would fully relate to his countrymen, the sympathy he had
met in England. But he had little hope of justice. Why
were not the franchises, why were not the corporate insti-
tutions, of the two countries the same? Was there any
man now, on either side of the house, who did not wish
that the union had been made complete. You could have
made your own arrangements then ; but the cry of " the
Church in danger" prevented that, and your union was
like the identification of the shark with its prer—theswal-
lowing up of the one by the other. The Whigs, who suc-
ceeded Mr. Pitt, were able to effect nothing for Irelane ;
all they asked was but to make Catholic officers, naval and
military, capable of promotion, but they could not succeed,
though the measure in reality went only to increase the
Crown's prerogative. The no-popery cry was raised to
an incredible height and extent. Mr. Perceval made ex-
clusion his staple. He resolved that the Catholics should
go no further ; but they resolved that they would, and they
combined for that purpose. Mr. O'Connell then sketched
the history of these combinations to the year 1825. In
that year all might have been settled ; the clergy, with their
bishops, were prepared to concur in a general arrangement;
tut the offer was refused. Upon this the county of Clare
returned him to parliament ; emancipation necessarily
followed. and it was granted. but in an nmlignified way.
as a thing enforced and extorted. The reform bill was
the consequence of the emancipation ; but in that reform
bill the franchise bestowed upon Ireland was measured
out with the most unjust parsimony; in proof of which
he referred to several Irish counties with large populations
and small constituencies. The repeal question was then
debated in the house. It was rejected ; but the house re-
solved that it would redress the grievances of Ireland.
That pled. e, however, was not fulfilled. He read a
petition which he had presented from the Precursor's So-
ciety, setting forth what they considered and claimed as
their rights. From this lie proceeded to the late prose-
cutions. He protested against them, in the name of the
Irish people,—first, because the meetings were not illegal,
unless, indeed, illegality were constituted by the repetition
of many acts each individually legal. Secondly, because
every Catholic had been struck from the jury ; with re-
spect to which, he defended himself against a charge
made against him on a former evening—that he had him-
self been guilty of packing jurors. It was a base and
false insinuation that Catholic jurors would perjure them-
selves. He acquitted Mr. Shaw of any evil intention in
the omission of the jury names, and of his clerk having
rec ed any bribe. He blamed the demurrer upon the
change to the array ; and spoke in bitter terms of the
Lord Chief Justice's charge to the jury. With respect to
the measures proposed by the government, he treated
them as of little value. What they ought to do on the
subjects they meant to deal with was to make each Ro-
man Catholic bishop a sole corporation—to improve the
borough franchise, clearing it from the grand jury cess—
to give to the counties as large a constituency, in pro-
portion to their population, as the English counties en-
joyed—and to bring back the law of landlord and tenant
to what it was before the union. But there were other
things to be done. The government should remodel the
financial arrangements between England and Ireland—
enlarge the Irish corporate franchise to an equality with
that of England—provide against absenteeism, which was
a crime in Ireland, and ought to be punished—and in-
crease the, number of Irish representatives. There was
one more grievance, greater than all the rest—the church.
Until there were reigious equality, there could be no
political freedom ; but that could not be accomplished by
money. The Catholic clergy would not accept a pecuniary
provision ; nor could your treasury afford an adequate
one ; any pittance you could give would but irritate, not
satisfy. Could not religion thrive unless backed by
money ? He was going back to Ireland to convey the
answer of parliament, but he feared it would not be a
satisfactory one. His anxiety was to see men act to-
gether like brothers, without distinction between English
and Irish, Protestant and Catholic.
Sir R. PEEL bespoke the indulgence of the House, as
baying to travel over a field exhausted by nine nights of
debate. He began by denying the historical assertions of
Mr. O'Connell. The independent Parliament he talked
of had been the most corrupt that ever existed ; and so
Mr. Grattan described it. During its existence, accord-
ing to Mr. O'Connell, the happiness of Ireland was almost
perfect ; yet for the last 20 years of its time there had
been a constant series of insurrection acts; that parlia-
ment itself was composed exclusively of protestants ; and
the protestant church existed unbroken. ft might be
imagined what misstatements the learned member was ac-
customed to make to his countrymen, when be could ven-
ture to make such assertions in the ace of the House of
Commons. This was a party motion ; and in order to
make it impossible that the government should agree to
it, in which case the noble mover must have proposed
something for the welfare of Ireland, the motion had been
mixed with a censure upon Ministers themselves. The
noble lord seemed to have been solving a question in poli-
tical fluxions, how to combine the maximum of crimina-
tion against the government with the minimum of incon-
venient engagement to himself. He might have been a
little less acrimonious ; considering the sort of house he
lived in, he might have thrown fewer stones. The example
was one which he himself would not imitate. With re-
ference to Lord John Russell's attack on the Lord Chan-
cellor, lie vindicated that eminent nobleman, and the
selection of him for his high office ; repeated Lord Lynd-
hurst's own explanation ; and rebuked the conduct of
Lord John Russell and the Whigs to Lord Plunket, an
Irishman of the highest qualifications, whom, only six
weeks before they left office, they, the advocates of the ex-
clusive claims of Irishmen to judicial office, had removed
from the Great Seal of Ireland to gratify the vanity of a
Scotehman ! Lord John Russel had endeavoured to make
him (Sir Robert Peel) responsible for what Mr. Bradshaw
had said at an election dinner about Roman catholic ap-
pointments ; but really this n-as pushing the doctrine of
conspiracy somewhat further than the Government itself
had ever carried it. He read the instructions which
he had given to the Lord Lieutenant, directing him
to iuclude in his patronage such Roman Catholics as
had not taken part in political agitations. Those instruc-
tions had been acted upon at the first opportunity, in the
instance of Sergeant Howley, and the reward of the go-
vernment had been a torrent of abuse from the liberal
party. The government had taken office in 18-11, and
until March, 1843, they had maintained in Ireland the
smallest force which, except on one or two occasions, had
ever been stationed there; they had reduced the Whig es-
tablishment by 2,400 men. In March, 1843, the agitation
began. The government had done nothing to provoke
this ; but it did riot suit the views-of some persons that the
government should be successful. The period was pecu-
liarly favourable to the movement, because tire poor law
of the late ministers was then coming into operation and
galling all the poorer occupiers ; it was also a period r f
agriculture! depression ; and there was, moreover, an

alarm on the subject of the tariff. The government was
charged with allowing the meetings to proceed for the
purpose of entrapping the agitators. He solemnly de-
nied that purpose, They had nut thought it wise—nay,
he thought it ccold be seldom wise, to apply to parliament
for extraordinary powers, the effect of which was generally
to impair the credit and efficacy of the ordinary law. The
whigs had taken a different course; they had applied fur
a coercion bill ; and he himself, instead of making a
Lichfield-horse compact with the opponents of that mea-
sure to turn out the whip government, had given his sup-
port to the bill. He read some of the provisions of that
measure, which created new offences, and made them
triable by court-martial. He had instructed the Lord
Lieutenant, if any meetings should be announced, with
respect to which there should be affidavits from firm and
voluntary deponents stating it to be of such a character as
to endanger the public peace, that a proclamation should
be issued to forbid such meeting ; that, if necessary, the
ground should be pre-occupied, and that, in the last re-
sort, it should be dispersed. Notice had not been want-
ing. The dismissal.of the magistrates, and the Queen's
speech on tne prorogation, had been sufficient warnings.
For a while the government had abstained from directly
interfering, not without some hope that the agitation
might subside. But the meetings became more dan-
gerous; the day selected for one of them was the anni-
versary of the Irish rebellion; the scenes of others were
those of events associated with national exasperation.
The Clontarf meeting had these distinguishing features—
that it was attended with military array, that it was con-
vened in military language, and the troops of repeal ca-
valry were summoned to attend it. The law advisers of
the crown were of, opinion that these circumstances dis-
guished that from the previous meetings, and rendered
itof itself illegal. The government then decided to issue
the proclamation, to occupy the ground, and to appeal to
the law. He justified that appeal; and denied all inten-
tion of disrespect to the Roman Catholics. He read evi-
dence of, the excitement then prevailing throughout Ire-
land, manifested even ju the night by signal fires upon the
hills of many counties ; and asked, whether these things
were for the purpose of petition? The government had
had no alternative but to call upon the law. A conviction
was obtained, without bloodshed—without collision; and
then the government were assailed by a powerful party,
and arraigned, sometimes for too great forbearance, and
sometimes for too great vigour. If they had taken any
different course, this house would have rung with far other
taunts—taunts for _premature interference, or for a cow-
ardly disposition to spare the powerful and pursue the
weak. It remained for him to deal with a much more
important subject—the future policy of government in
Ireland. He wondered it had not occurred to Mr. O'Con-
nell, that if wealth and intelligence were of any import-
ance in a constituency, the extensive pauperism which he
had mentioned as amounting to 70 per cent. on the whole
agricultural population must be a strong argument against
the extensive franchise demanded. He explained and
vindicated the course which had been taken with respect
to the Landlord and Tenant Commission. As to the
franchise, he admitted that there ought to be, not identity
between the two countries,which was impossible, but sub-
tantial equality. That was the principle which we ought
to endeavour to establish throughout Irish affairs. Now
as to the church. The legislature had given to the Pro-
testants at the union an assurance for the preservation of
their establishment; and as far as national compact could
have force, that establishment was protected. As autho-
rities for this protection, be cited Mr. Burke, Mr. Grattan,
Mr. Plunket, and Sir John Newport. He would not say
that the compact must bind the pa! liament in all possible
circumstances, bat he held that it ought not to be lightly
disturbed. But there was a still higher ground—that of
the welfare of Ireland itself. There must be some
Church Establishment in that country, and it could
not be Catholic, because the Catholics refused to ac-
cept endowments in connexion with the State. What
then could be more unreasonable than to take from a
Church which submitted itself to the State five-sixths of
its property, for the purpose of transferring that propor-
tion to a Church which refused any such connexion? He
could conceive nothing more likely to raise a spirit of the
widest discord. His determination, therefore, was to
uphold the Protestant Church in its full integrity, not
excluding such reforms as might improve its usefulness.
He proposed to give facilities for the endowments of
private benefactors to the Roman Catholic Church and
to increase very largely the grant for public education
He referred with emotion, to the sacrifices which he had
made for Ireland, when in order to carry emancipation,
and, as he had hoped, to insure her tranquility, lie haft
risked private friendship and political connexion, and for-
feited the cherished representation of that university
where his earliest aunbit;on had been gratified. He hoped
that if party did not mar the endeavour, Ireland might
yet be governed by the ordinary law. He expressed his I
belief that there was a growing disposition to discard
mere party feeling ; and concluded with an eloquent aspi-
ration for the day when the Sovereign of these kingdoms,
alighting like some benevolent spirit on the shores of
Ireland, might lay the foundation of the temple of
peace.
Lord John RUSSELL replied at some length ; and the F
House divided—
Against
the motion 324
For it 225

RAILWAY INTELLIGENCE.

The plan for constructing a railway between Wolver-
hampton and Shrewsbury, to join the Grand Junction
Railway, near the former.town,•has been again brought
forward.

RAILWAY FROM WREXHANI TO CHESTER.—Last
week a meeting was held at Wrexham in reference to a
railway from that town to Chester. Resolutions were
passed approving of the measure, and Sir W. W. Wynn
and Sir R. Cunliffe support the measure.
The verdict of manslaughter brought by the coroner's
jury against the directors of the Bristol and Exeter Rail-
way, in consequence of an accident at Somerset-bridge,
near Bridgewater, has been quashed in the Court of
Queen's Bench.
The second part of the woks of the railroad from Rouen
to Havre, hetween Barentin and Flatnenvillo (about nine
English miles), has been contracted for (says the Journal
des Chemins de Fer) by Messrs. Mackenzie and Brassey,
at the sum of 2,008,635 f.
NOTTINGHAM, NEWARK, AND LINCOLN RAILWAY.
—The directors of the Midland Counties Railway have
ordered a survey, under the superintendence of Mr. Robert
Stephenson, of a line of railway from Nottingham to New-
ark and Lincoln, joining the Midland Counties line at
Nottingham. The shares are to be £25 each.—Derby
Mercury.
Woor EN RA IL WAYS.—A bill is at present before par-
liament, which has for its object the laying down of a
wooden railway, upon Prosser's principle, from Guildford
to Woking. It is said that wood, besides being very much
cheaper than iron, is, in the way it is here intended to use
it, more durable. A greater rate of speed can likewise be
obtained upon it, and the specification of the patent sets
orth many other advantages.
SHEFFIELD AND MANCHESTER RAILWAY.—A great
accommodation is about to be conferred on the town of
Glossop by the immediate formation of a railroad to con-
nect
that town with the above line. The distance will be
about a mile and a quarter, and constructed at the expense
of the Duke of Norfolk. An act of Parliament will not
be nesessary. This will be the means of introducing a very
superior quality of stone to Manchester and Liverpool, for
building purposes, the property of the duke, and which
abounds to a considerable extent in the neighbourhood of
Glossop.—Derby Paper.
BIRMINGHAM AND GLOUCESTER RAILWAY.—The
half-yearly meeting of this company was held on Friday.
The receipts for the half year ending 31st December,
1843, have been £51,350 25., which is £2,291 9s. sd.
more than the corresponding period of last year. The
total expenditure is £37,639 ls. lid., and the disposable
balance is £13,762 14s. 7d. From this sum the directors
recommend a dividend of 30s. per share to be paid. The
dividend in August was 12s. After the payment of this
dividend £lll 16s. Id. will remain to be placed on the
credit of the next half year. During the past six months
the passenger traffic exhibits an increase of £2,311 4s. 4d.
over the corresponding period of 1842. As to the mer-
chandise there is an increase of 3,368 tons, but a decrease
of £2lO in the money.

EASTERN COUNTIES RAILWAY. —The 15th general
meeting of this company took place on Thursday. Con-
formably with the resolutions adopted at a special general
meeting of the proprietors held on the 25th of October
last, the directors had concluded an agreement with the
Northern and Eastern Company for the amalgamation of
the two lines, which had been effected on the Ist of Janu-
ary last, and at the same time the completion of the New-
port Extension line had come under the control of the
Eastern Counties Company, and was proceeding rapidly.
The expenditure up to the present time amounted—on
the construction account, to £2,699,226 ; on the interest
account, to X 78,726 ; forming together £2,777,991, exclu-
sive of £100,537, being the difference between the liabili-
ties and assets. The total expenditure for the main line
was therefore £2,878,529; but of this £22,121 having
been ferfeited, the actual capital raised and chargeable for
dividends and interest against the receipts was £2,844,408.
A contract had been concluded for the completion of the
works for £lOO,OOO, the contractor agreeing to maintain
the railway at the rate of £573 a mile per annum for ten
years. The traffic on the Northern and Eastern line,
during the first seven weeks of the present year, showed
an increase of 32 per cent. over that of the corresponding
seven weeks of the preceding year; and on the Eastern
Counties line the traffic had considerably increased during
the same period of time. On the traffic account, there
was a balance of £26,610 14.9. 9d. available for a dividend,
which the directors recommended should be declared at
4s. per share, payable from the sth of March next, sub-
ject to a deduction of ls. per share in respect of the £2
per share not called. Contracts bad been entered into
tor the purchase of the Stratford Branch, and for leasing
the Harwich Extension line. The report was agreed to,
and the meeting then separated.

EAST INDIA HOUSE.—On Wednesday an adjourned
Court was held at the India House, for the purpose of
considering the papers relative to Scinde. The chairman
referred to the recent debate on Scinde in Parliament, and
then said, " And now that the question is decided, the
court do not consider that their duty is ended. They were
now engaged in reviewing the whole of the proceedings,
and, above all, they would give their serious considera-
tion to the cause of the deposed Atneers, with the view
of ameliorating their condition, especially such of them
as may he tree from any imputation of treachery. Under
these Circumstances I would submit to the court the
,pro-
priety of abstaining at present, as a body, from espres_7
sing an opinion on the subject ; they had better,,
think, leave the matter in the hands of the Court
of
Directors." After sonic discussion, the chairman's
»lotion was carried.