The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-05-07 00:00:00

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS.

On \\Tednes.liv, the u.ital moltlity m-etlog of the
Council was held at the Ttivv,i_h•ill. The MAYOR took
tie chair at eleven o'clock, time there were 23
members in their retTective

THE WATCH COMMITTEE. -TUE MAGISTRACY.-
ORANGEISM AND RIBBONISM.

Mr. ASPINALL asked permission of tin' May•)r to have
the proceedings of the Watch C maort-e read in the first
instance. He made the applivaiion in consecineime of
be ng obliged to leave town, on business of a melancholy
nature, at one o'clock, and as the chairman of the com-
mittee would be unable
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE exer,ssed willingnessto attend the Council that day.
to
con ent to the a pplicatio •, under t.e circumstances stated.
Mr. H. HORNBY thouAt it ex'rmn-ly desirable Oat
the proceedings should he read in the presence of a full
Council, as they involved considerations of a somewhat
unusual character. lie understood that observations
were to be made respecting the conduct of the magis-
tracy.
Mr. ASPINALL said he was in hopes that discussion
arising out of the pr..c edings would he postponed for the
present, as a case was about to be drawn up for the opinion
of eminent counsel, touching the powers of the magistracy
and the committee.
Mr. 1-10aNBY, under these circumstances, observed
that his objection was entirely withdrawn.
Mr. HARBORD said he should feel It necessary, for the
protection of his own character as a public mai!, to bring
forward a subject in which he wasiodividually concerned,
and upon which he expected a certain member of the
Council, then in his place, to satisfy him on a particular
point.
Upon the motion of Mr. AsetsrAtt., the proceedings
were then read. It appeared from those proceedings that
the Mayor (having heard that some of the police-officers
of the borough were members II Orange and Ribbon So-
cieties), together with Mr. Rushton, had come to the
determination, that any constable who was a member of
an Orange or Ribbon Society, was deemed by them ineli-
gible for the sit cation of a police-officer in the torn of
Liverpool, and unfit for police duty. Inquiries were then
directed to be made ; Mr. Whity, Mr. Miller, and Mr;
Dowling were consulted ; and the head constable reported
that seven of the force had acknowledged themselves to
be Orangemen, and that others were members of three
Catholic benefit societies. A meeting of the borough
magistrates was then called, at which the foregoing facts
were detailed, and at which the following resolution, pro-
posed by Mr. itu•hton, and seconded by Mr. BAton,
was adopted :—" That no man who is a member of either
an Orange or Ribbon Society shall be permitted to belong
to the police force of this borough. and that alt members
of the present force now be!onging to either of those so-
cieties shall be required forthwith to withdraw fr 'm them,
and that in case of retu.al the Mayor and magistrates will
feel it their duty to dismiss them from the force." An
amendment was moved by Mr. Hodgson, but; for the
want of a seconder, fell to the ground. Mr. Miller then
read the resolution of the magistrates to the seven
Orangemen in the force, who immediately declared their
willingness to withdraw from the Orange Society, but at
the same time reque ted that copies of the rules and orders
of that society might be laid before the Mayor and ma is-
trates.
Then followed a correspondence which had taken 1
place between the Mayor and Mr. Aspinall (the deputy
chairman of the Wateh Committee), touching the pro-
ceedings; of the magistrates, which proceedings, it ap-
peared, were not, in the first instance, cominotticated to
that committee ; and lastly, there was the fol owing reso-
lution to which the Watch Committee had come :—" That
the Town-clerk be requested to prepare a case for the
opinion of one or more .rltinent comisel as to the powers
of the Watch Committee and the justices. in respect to
the diani-sal of the constables, and on al points which
have arisen or may arise as to the management of the
pelice,' or the separate duties of this committee and the
justices in relation thereto; also upon the points now
rai-ed by the proceedings Of the justices in relation to the
exia Dim; of Orangemen and Ribbonmen from the police
as ineligible; and that moil the opiwort he received, the
further consideration of the master and the proceedings
of the committee be posteoned "
Mr. ASPINALL, seconded by Mr. Thornhill, having
moved the ro:,tirination of the proceedings,
Mr. HARBORD said that perhaps that was the time for
him to make a statement relative to the proceedings of
the Watch Committee. in which he was individually con-
cerned—(hear). As a member of that committee, he
availed himself of the opportunity to bring under the
notice of the council a certain report, which appeared in
the Liverpool Journal of Saturday last ; but, before he
ventured to read any portion of that report, he had to
request the permission of the Council to put a question
to a member of their nody as to whether what was stated
in the Journal was substantially correct. He hoped he
should be a lowed to do this, as his character, as a public
man, was very much involved at the present time.
The Ms_voß.—Certainly, you can ask any question you ,
like ; but, you know, it is optional with the parties to
answer VOll.

Mr GLADSTONE.—IS it the pleasure of the Council
that Mr. Harbord should have this permission ? He
wants to out a question to me, to know Ahe'ber a report
is correct, before he has read that report.
Mr. HARBORD said he had nut mentioned Mr. Glad-
stone's name. and that if patience were evinced, the re-
port should be read. To ensure the attendance of Mr.
Gladstone. ha had sent a note to that gentleman the day
before, I Ring him that he was going to put a question to
him in Council. Mr. Gbdstotie must know that other
people had ears and understanding as well as himself:
and it was therefore considered necessary to communicate
with him, so as to ensure his attendance there that day.
Mr. GLADSTONE--I assure you I have not attended
here in ptu,uance of your summons.
Mr H ARBORD.—I hope if I act as a gentleman to-
wards Mr. Gladstone, he will act the same towards me—
(hear). I have not summoned him
Mr. GLAnszoNE —There is an insinuation here.
Mr. Fl ARBORD.—No ; I say it would be an ungentle-
manly act, on my part, to summons him, and that I have
not done so.

ThP MAYOR.--I understand Mr. Gladstone to say that
he did not attend in consequence of your summons.
Mr n ARBORD,—I say I trust I know how to conduct
myself as a gentleman towards him ; and 1 trust he will
he able to act as a gentleman towards me. Ile has at-
temp'ed twice to interrupt me. I can assure the council
that, althow.:h my feelings are very much hurt, I came
here not. to show the slightest acrimonious feeling to-
wards any person, hut rather inclined to believe that what
Mr. Glads'one has said of me was owing to a want of
judgment. awl n,,t with any intention to hurt my feeli,gs.
—(hear, hear). I have been determined for twelve months
past never to allow my natural feelings to he brought into
action to the des'ruction of my better judgment; and I
ohfopreevAelna.e
Mr. Cf-rafal ifiese,olinnegawi,l)lrlitvieatttolkneonwtertthat laanmy ndoe.tsirrematon
insult. But, as an independent member of society,
shall ake all the stens I can to protect my character as a
public individual. Having s'at-d thus much, I now turn
to the report in the Journal, which purports to be a re-
port of a meeting of the magistrates on business con-
nected with Orangemen in the police force: and from this
it anpears that Mr. Gladstone expressed his entire con-
currence in what had fa`l,n from Mr. Rehbone, and
said " he c tu-idered it highly improver that such a per-
son as Mr blarbord, the Grand Master of the Orange
Lodges, should be a member of the Watch Committee."
I bee to ask Mr. Gladstone if that is substantially cor-
rect ?

Mr. GLADSTONE.—Ts t the pleasure of the Council
that I .houlti reply to the question ? I shall take the
vo•e. of the Council on that point. (Oh !)
The NI AYOR.— I think it optional with you to answer.
Mr. H. LAWRENCE.—It is not for Mr. Gladstone to
Ask the pleasure of the Council on such a point. He has
been asked a question. and it is for him to answer it or
not, as he pleases ; but we are not constituted a Council
to inre,t'eate such a matter. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. GLADSTONE.—WeII, then, I have no hesitation in
saving that if this had been a matter which referred to my
conduct, as a member of the Council, I should have
thought it necessary to give Mr. flarbord every informa-
tion, so far as was consistent with what is right and proper,
connected with the matter. But, as this information re-
lates entirely to my duty as a magistra'e, I conceive that
I am now acting in j.,stice to myself and the other ma-
gistrates of the borough when I say, that in no way hold-
lire myself amenable to Mr. liarbord in the matter, I
must distinctly and unequivocally refuse to give any in-
formation as to the report, whether correct or incorrect;
and that, taking my stand on that, I shall make no fur-
ther remarks on the subject.
Mr. HARBORD.—I should not think of remaining on
the Watch Committee until the pleasure of the Council
was known ; and I now challenge Mr. Gladstone to move
that I be suspended from the committee.

The M AYOR.—Yon cannot make that motion.

Mr. H ARBORD.--I trust I may have that justice done
to me. lam connected with a public board, and if a sus-
picion rests in the breast of any man that I am incapable
to discharge its duties properly, put me in a position in
which+ I may set myself right. I must either retire or be
select to taunts.
The MAYOR.—If there is no personal, there certainly
is no legal objection to you. None was ever stated, or at-
attempted to he stated.
Mr. ISAAC HOLMES thought the cases analogous. If
an individual, who happened to be a member of the Orange
Society, should not he in the police force, surely the
Grand Master of the Orangemen should not be on the
committee. Mr. Harbord's challenge was fair. (Hear.)
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE suggested to the Council the
pr 'priery of asking Mr. H3rbord if he thought himself a
member of an illegal society.
Mr. HARBORD believod that be was a member of a
body who were exclusively loyal, and who were constitu-
ted to uphold the laws of the country and the Protestant
government. He should say that any sound Protestant was
in his heart an Orangeman. (Hear, hear.) In fact, all the
laws and regulations of the society were laid open to the
Public, who were invited to join, merely that they might
be banded together to maintain the laws andinstitu-
tions oc the country : and therefore, with these objects in
view, he was under the impression that it was not only a
legal hot a legally constituted body. (Hear.)
Mr. 11. HORNBY thought the discussion out of order,
and that they were not justified in questioning any pro-
ceedings which might have taken place before a body of
who met without reporters being present.
Mr. HA Ill!ORD hoped his position would be considered
by the council. If a common policeman, who was a re-
enerned fitanzeman, was considered unfit for the force,
surely he (Mr. II.) who was an honorary member of an
Orange must be equally disqualified from sitting
on the Watch Committee. He hoped those who objected
to him would have the moral courage to rise and object
to him. He eh .11euged at,y one to do it then.
Mr..ll..lloaNny said that if it was competent to make
the uhipetton, be, for one, would have the moral courage
to do so, not ecause Mr. lla.bord had discharged his du-
de, un'ai,ly, for he had always discharged them very pro-
perly.