The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-06-28 00:00:00

limptriat Varlianunt.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MONDAY, JUNE 24.
Mr. Bernal and others, from the Commons, brought up the
Separatists' Affirmation Bill, the Exchequer-bills Bill, and se-
veral private bills, which were read the first time.
Lord Duncannon and others, from the Commons, brought up
a message, requesting that their lordships would communicate
to the Commons the Lords' report on Turnpike Trusts.—Or-
dered.

WEST INDIA QUESTION.
Lord ELLENBOROUGII said he wished, before the house pro-
ceeded to the order of the day, to put a question to the noble
earl at the head of the government, with reference to the reso-
lutions which were to be brought before their lordships to-mor-
row, relative to the West India colonies. It was a question
which, he believed, the noble earl would feel no indisposition to
answer. The first part of his question related to the compensa-
tion which was to be granted to the West India proprietors. lie
should be glad to learn at what time, and in what manner, the
£'20,000,000 to be granted to them were to be raised? (hear,
hear,) and, likewise, in what mode it was proposed to pay the
interest of that la, ae sum ? (Hear, hear.) It was also ex-
tremely important Co know whether it was the intention of his
Majesty's ministers to propose any measure to Parliament this
year to carry into effect those resolutions, and certain other re-
solutions which had originated in his Majesty's councils.
Earl GREY said it certainly was proposed to grant a certain
sum of money to the West India proprietors; but he thought
that the best time for giving any details on the subject would be
-when the whole measure was before the house. The raising of
that sum would be contingent on the proceedings of the local
legislatures in passing such measures as Parliament might re-
commend. As to the terms upon which, and the time when, the
money was to be raised, it was not in his power to give an an-
swer. The general principle on which the measure proceeded
was simply to rescue the negro population from slavery, on
making compensation to the proprietors; and a bill was now
framed on the subject. There was the less necessity for his en-
tering into any explanation on the subject, as his noble friend
(the Earl. of Ripon) would enter fully into the question to-
morrow.
Lord ELLzrseoaouGH inquired whether the bill related solely
to compensation, or embraced the other parts of the question ?
Earl GREY said the bill related to the question generally.
LOCAL JURISDICTION BILL.
_ _

On the motion for recommitting this bill,
The Earl of ELDON said that if the measures then before their
lordships, anffbills in the other house, the object of which was to
alter the existing state of the law, were passed, as it were, in a mass,
the consequence would be a great (lealof mischief and confusion.
He begged leave to examine the bill a little in detail. Was it
a bill for at once establishing local courts throughout the coun-
try? No such thing. It went to alter the whole course of pro-
ceedings under the common law, by selecting such counties, or
parts, or districts of counties, as those to whom the power was
. given might think fit and proper places wherein to try this new
experiment. What would be the consequence of this? It would
be this—there would, under this system, be one mode of admi-
nistering the law in one county, and another in another county.
In some districts they would proceed according to the existing
law of the land, while in others they would have recourse to the
courts established under this bill, for the purpose, he supposed,
of enabling people to judge whether the new system or the com-
mon law worked best. The profession of the law were more disin-
terested than thenoble and learned lord on the woolsack seemed
to suppose. The judges were willing to assist in effecting any
improvement or wise alteration in the law, although they might
view with some apprehension so extensive and sweeping a mea-
sure as this. He objected to that part of the bill which related
10 the appointment of judges in the local courts. There was a
wide difference between the way in which the law was now ad-
ministered by the sages of Westminster-hall and the way in
which it would probably be administered by young men of ten
years' standing at the bar, or serjeants who might not be of ten
ears' standing. He should not say a word in the committee,
because he could not see what alteration could be made in the
measure, so as to render it a safe and proper one ; but if thebill
arrived at a third reading, he would come down, and with all his
heart and soul register his dissent to the measure. It might be
considered the opinion of a superannuated lawyer;_ but such as
it was, the present generation and posterity should be apprised
of it. His lordship concluded by moving, "That this bill be re-
committed this day six months."
The Loan CHANCEL LoR said he was sure his noble and learned
friend would believe that he was sincere when he expressed the
great respect which he must naturally feel for his long and ma-
ture experience ; and he would further observe, that any opinion
which his noble and learned friend might form, however differ-
ent it might be from his own, must always command his atten-
tion. On the motion that the house should resolve itself into a
committee, into which they had previously gone, and in which
they had made some progress, and when they were about to
make still further progress, his noble and learned friend rose
and proposed the extraordinary amendment that the bill should
be recommitted that day six months, instead of going on, and
making some further progress in this great question. When this
debate was closed, and his noble and learned friend's motion was
negatived, as he hoped their lordships would negative it, after they
bad gone into the committee, and made some progress, he sup-
posed some other noble lon' would on afuture occasion comedown
and renew the discussion of the principle of the measure, renew
the debate, renew the opposition to the bill, and with precisely
the same result. There was no one that ever mooted the ques-
tion of local courts for the last fifteen years—and he followed
several who had done so—who was not convinced that the esta-
blishment of those courts was expedient, that such courts were
necessary,—that the time had come when this great and salu-
tary improvement of the law should be carried into effect,—that
the legislature was called on to grant this mighty blessing, this
act of common justice to his Majesty's subjects. It was no ex-
periment therefore on this point, namely, whether these courts
were expedient or necessary, or ought to be established. He
brought the bill forward in their lordships' house in December,
1830, and renewed it in the ensuing session, when it was re-
ferred to the common law commissioners, who having reported
in its favour, it was now once more brought before the house.
How any man could think that he had proceeded too preci-
pitately fie could not imagine: if (according to a phrase now
very much in fashion) he had been guilty of adopting a vacil-
lating line of conduct, or of evincing infirmity of purpose, ken-
other favourite charge against the government,) he might have
experienced more difficulty in defending himself.
The Earl of ELDON admitted having complained of the work-
ing of the bankruptcy system in 1801, but he endeavoured to
repress the evil in his judicial capacity, and did not come to
Parliament for assistance.
The house divided—
Content
Not content . 37:4

Majority for the committee 11
The house then went into committee.
Upon the first clause being proposed,
Lord WYNFoaD objected to the increased patronage and in-
fluence which the bill would confer upon government. With
a view to try the experiment fairly, and upon a moderate scale,
he should move by way of amendment to omit the words " for
any one or more county or counties, riding or ridings," and in. :
sert in their place " for the counties of Lancaster and Kent."
He named those two counties in order to see the working of
the system in a manufacturing and agricultural district.
After some discussion the amendment was negatived, and the
clause agreed to.
The 2d and 3d clauses were then agreed to.
On the 4th clause being read,
Lord LYNDHURST said he could not understand from the
bill what was to be the extent of the jurisdiction of these
Courts—whether it was to extend to one, or two, or three
counties.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the arrangement of this
part of the measure must be left to the executive. There was
a great difficulty in defining the extent of the boundaries, as
was found in the case of the-Reform Bill. The extent of the
jurisdiction of a court would depend on the circumstances of
the district in which it was to act. Now, for instance, in the
'est riding of the county of York there would be one court at
Leeds, which would take in that town and a district to the east
of it, and another court in a different part of the riding for the
remaining parts of it.
Lord WYsiFORD, in alluding to the travelling expenses to be
allowed to the judges in these courts, suggested that £5OO
would not be sufficient.
The Marquis of CLANRICARDE thought that £5OO a-year
would be more than sufficient to defray their travelling ex-
penses. They would not. have so much travelling as physicians
in moderate practice; and the noble lord might easily ascertain
the price at which they jobbed their carriages.
The LoRD CHANCELLOR thought that £5OO a-year would be
a large allowance for travelling expenses, unless these judges
were going to travel with a coach and eight.
Lord LYNDHCRST suggested that three or four judges, tra-
velling circuits three times a-year, like the Commissioners of
the Insolvent Court, would be a much more useful machinery
than the 25 commissioners to be appointed under this bill. That
was the system which he would oppose to the system of his noble
and learned friend, and for this reason, that it would not de-
tach these courts so entirely from Westminster-hall.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that there was nothing which
you might not prove, provided you were permitted to assume
the whole matter in debate. With all respect to the Commis-
sioners of the Insolvent Court, against whom he did not mean
to says a word, and whom he readily admitted to be most excel-
lent men in their profession, he did not think that three or four
judges, even with abilities equal to theirs, would be able to per-
form the labour which it would be the duty of these 25 commis-
sioners to go through.. Besides, these three or four judges
would be a sort of perainbUlatory court; whereas the object of
this measure was to have a court upon the spot always open.
Lord IsseleneitsT repeated that the object which he had
chiefly in view was not to detach these courts entirely from
Westminster-hall. Talk of assumption, indeed t why, the whole
basis of this bill rested on assumption.
The Loan CHANCELLOR.—No such thing; it rests on evi-
dence. (Hear, hear.)
The fifth clause was then agreed to.
On the 6th clause, which proposes that "the judges and re-
gistrars shall not be removable except by address of the two ,
Houses of Parliament,
Lord Wye:eosin rose to snake an objection to it. It was
rather too much to have the registrars of these courts—who
were merely ministerial officers—only removable by address
from the two houses of Parliament. In every other court in
the country the ministerial officers were removable without the
necessity of such an address. A judge must he impeached-if
he was guilty of misconduct calling for his removal; but that
was not the case with any subordinate officer in his court.
The amendment of Lord Wynford for leaving out " the
registrars"was agreed to, and the clause as amended was ordered
to stand part of the bill.
The 7th, Bth, 9th, 10th, and llth clauses were agreed to with-
out discussion.
On the 12th clause, which defines who are to be the practi-
tioners in the courts of judges in ordinary, being read,
Lord LYNDHURST asked whether in these courts barristers
were to be opposed by attornies? If so, it would lead to great
confusion, as he had seen in his own experience at the quarter
sessions. His lordship, who had never practised in the minor
courts of the country, might not be aware of this circumstance.
He therefore requested him to consider this point, and perhaps
upon consideration he would see the propriety of striking out
that part of the clause which gave to attornics the power of
practising as advocates in these courts.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that perhaps the clause was
liable to this objection; but. he had no doubt that wherever
barristers were opposed to attornies, barristers would soon ob-
tain the command of the court.
Lord LYNDHURST said he knew, a court in which the bar-
risters refused to wear their gowns and wigs, so long as
attornies were allowed to plead there. The magistrates ex.
eluded the attornies, and the consequence. was, that at the
next sitting all the barristers appeared in their gowns and
wigs. Before this clause was disposed of, he wished to know
whether the amount of fees payable to the officers of these
courts was to be regulated according to the scale contained in
the former bill ?
. The Luxe. Clialsceeton said the fees were left to be settled
from time to time by the judges of the courts at Westminster.
Lord LYNDHURST.—AM I to understand, then, that Parlia-
ment is to exercise no judgment with respect to the .amount of
these fees ?
The LORD CHANCELLOR.—Yes.
The clause was then agreed to. , •
Clauses from the 12th to' the 18th, inclusive, were agreed to,'