The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1850-11-26 00:00:00

THE lIIIRPOOL STANDAIt3.

tions, he •must-say that, although he might have stated
the truth, he bad not stated the whole truth. He did
not .think it iufair mode of exeression to say that the
Pope had partitioned out the land of this country. How
could be point out the jurisdiction of his prelates without
reference to the land ? And why should Dr. Wiseman
have greater influence under one title than another?
(Great disapprobation.) Mr. Horsfall had told them that
the Tope bad denounced Queen Elizabeth. Whether he
had or not, he (Mr. Shiel) did not know. But when be
said that the'Pope might denounce Queen Victoria, and
that it would be agreeable to the Catholics of this•coun-
try, there be fell into a decided mistake. A denunciation
of Queen Victoria by the Pope would be of no more value
than a denunciation of the Pope by that meeting. Mr.
Horsfall •had read a quotation to show that the recent
proceedings of the Pope were contrary to law. If so,
*het meeting was totally unnecessary. (Cheers, and
" No, no.") Let the matter be investigated, and quietly
settled in the courts of law. Mr. Shiel concluded by
movine an amendment. (Great disapprobation.)
The Rev. R. HODGSON, Roman Catholic priest, of
Burnley, rose to second tke resolution, amid great con-
fusion and interruption. Being asked who he was, the
rev. gentleman said—" I have been a Roman Catholic
priest, in the exercise of missionary duties."—Renewed
uproar, in the course of which the rev. gentleman re-
tired, after a communication from
The MAYOR, who came forward and said—l have been
compelled to stop Mr. Hoagson, because he is not a
townsman of Liverpool. (Great cheering.)
The Rev. Mr. WORTHY, Roman Catholic priest, of
Copperas-hill, stepped forward to second the amendment.
He would not detain them longer than by expressing his
perfect allegiance and loyalty to Queen Victoria. He
only owed spiritual allegiance to the Bishop of Rome.
The rev gentleman read the amendment, which was re-
ceived with a storm of hisses and disapprobation.
THE MAYOR first put the amendment, for which great
numbers of hands were held up in the gallery, and a few
in the pit. This demonstration of the vast numerical pre-
ponderance of the Protestant part of the meeting was the
signal for rapturous cheering. When it had subsided, the
Mayor declared the original motion carried.

The Rev. Dr. M'IsTEilE then came forward, and was
received with deafening and prolonged cheering. A party
of disturbers, however, commenced an uproar, which was
evidently designed to prevent the rev. doctor from being
heard. Having waited a :one time without succeeding in
obtaining a hearing, Dr. M'Neile leisurely took a seat to
the front of the platform, and began to make his speech to
the reporters, without attempting to make himself heard
by the meeting. The gentlemen of the press stood up,
and, leaning forward with their note-booke, formed them-
selves, as well as they could, into an audience for the
rev. gentleman. This proceeding was at first received
with shouts of laughter and great cheering by the vast
meeting. The doctor, thus addressing the reporters, had
got no further than the remark that "The question before
the meeting and. unhappily, before the country, which
was shaking the kingdom to its centre, was not a new
question ;" when the uproar became deafening, and
scarcely ree of the reporters into whose ears the rev.
doctor was shouting his speech could hear his remarks.
The malcontents being unwilling that Dr. M'Neile should
gain the ears of these gentlemen, jumped from the pit
upOn the reporters' table, .and made a sortie upon the
platform. The confusion was now indescribable. Ink-
stands were upset, and notebooks and slips of copy were
flying about in all directions. The reporters were com-
pelled, of course, to leave their seats and take refuge upon
the platform. At this moment a body of the police, armed
with their staves, made their appearance, and attempted
to drive the invaders back into the pit. The Mayor
mounted the table, and exclaimed that he would not de-
sert his post, although his worship's voice was all but in-
audible In the uproar. In a few minutes, through the ex-
ertions of the police, the disturbance subsided, and, the
police having planted themselves in different parts of the
amphitheatre, the proceedings were, after a considerable
interval, resumed.

The MAYott then said—" Gentlemen, T am here as
Mayor of Liverpool, and I claim a fair hearing and fair
play for every speaker ; and I trust that as Englishmen
you will award fair play to everybody. (Cheers.) If
gentlemen would only be quiet, we should very soon dis-
pose of our business."

The Rev. HUGII Al'Neng then, in the midst of com-
parative quietude, said, " I come before this meeting"
(Renewed hisses and groans.) You have heard four
speakers on the other side, and now you are afraid to
hear me. (Loud cheers.) The question before the
meeting—which had stirred the country to its centre—
was not a new one. It was called into agitation by a new
occurrence, but it was an old question. (Hear, hear.)
There was nothing new about it. It was the old form of
Papal assumption, Papal interference—(hear, hear)---
Papal domination, Papal supremacy—(loud cheers)—
under the plausible pretence of spiritual jurisdiction.
(Renewed cheers.) Many persons in this country had
thought that all contention upon this subject had ceased ;
that society had so improved in intelligence and civiliza-
tion, in light and liberty, that the intolerant principles of
the middle ages were abjured for ever, and by every one ;
that, in fact, modern Popes had no notion of reviving the
intolerant principles put forth by their predecessors; and
that nothing hit a spirit of bigotry, as dark as existed in
those ages, could continue to ascribe to them any such
principles of intolerance, or admit them to be capable of
any such acts of absurdity. (Mingled hisses and laugh-
ter.) Facts are eloquent. A Papal bull, dated Septem-
ber, 1850, has done what no Protestant arguments or
demonstrations could have done. The claim of supre-
macy, which for a long time was not put forward in this
country, slumbered. (Hear, hear, and hisses.) Why
this foolish bull, if it is good for nothing? If matters
were still the same, and if there were no occasion for
this " hubbub," then the Pope has spoken uselessly, his
own friends being the judges. (Cheers and hisses.) It
slumbered ; but it slumbered like the lava in the deep
crater of the volcano, always burning, and ready to burst
from its imprisonment in wide desolation when opportu-
nity offered. (Hisses and cheers.) He rose to propose
an address to her most excellent Majesty the Queen.
Now, he was not one of those disposed to treat a bull o:
the Pope like one of his grand Mother's tales. (Laughter
and cheers.) He was not one of those who did not know
whether the Pope issued such and such a bull, or not, in
the reign of Queen Elizabeth ; he was not one of those
who, whilst they maintained that the principles of the
Romish Church were the same, unaltered always, and who,
while they gloried in the statement,at the same time denied
that which the Pope said three hundred years ago, and
held that to be true which a Pope denied now. (Loud
cheers and uproar.) Now it was desirable, in prosecu-
ting this subject, without exaggeration or without exte-
nuation, that they should make themselves acquainted
with this same veritable bull. (Laughter and cheers.)
He had carefully read this bull. It contained what he
might call seven heads or horns. (Great laughter,
cheers, and disapprobation.) And it had a sting in its
tail. (Laughter:) First, it stated the Pope's assumption
of authority ; secondly, the Pope gave a recital of what
his predecessors had done for this country, to console the
Church of England for its immense disgraces, and to work
for its resurrection ; thirdly, it contained the reasons—
[Here some question, which we did not catch, was put to
the rev. gentleman from the gallery.] The rev. gentle-
man said he was too much engaged with a great question
to think of himself, and then proceeded. Thirdly, the
bull contained the Pope's reasons for now putting his
own hand to the work; fourthly, his distribution of the
kingdom into districts, to be under men appointed with
apostolic powers; fifthly, it contained the Pope's reserva-
tion to himself of the right of Subdividing those districts
at any future time that he may think proper; sixthly, it
contained the Pope's description of the powers and obli-
gations of the bishops and archbishops now appointed by
him; seventhly. it contained the Pope's abrogation of the
former form—as he called it—the former form of the
Church of England ; and, lastly, it contained his decree,
that all which might be done to the contrary by any one,
whosoever he might be, knowing or ignorant, in the name
of any authority whatsoever, should be without force and
void. There was an analysis of the bull ; and now, if they
really wanted information, he would say a few words on
each of these branches. (Cheers, and cries of " Go on.' )
First of all there was the Pope's assumption of power,
which was this,—" the power of governing the Universal
Church, entrusted by our Lord Jesus Christ to the Ro-
man Pontiff in the person of St. Peter. the Prince of the
Apostles. and his successors, as maintained for centuries
in the Apostolic see." Here the Pope asserted what he
(the Rev. Mr. M'Neile) said, without offence, all the
Popes that had ever reigned could not prove. The Pope
asserted that the power of governing the Universal Church
was entrusted by our Lord Jesus Christ to the Roman
Pontiff in the person of St. Peter. Now he (the Rev.
Mr. M'Neile) did not confine himself to negatives; the
reverse of this could be and had been proved—(cries of
" Never !")—that no man,—that St. Peter himself never
pretended to such authority,—that there was no intima-
tion of it, and that no man ever pretended to it, until five
hundred years after St. Peter was in his grave. (Cheers
and disapprobation.) Here the rev. speaker, turning to
the Chair, said, Mr. Mayor, if you wish for information
on this subject, I wish to recommend to you a speech re-
cently made in London, by a bookseller of London, and
published in a separate form. I have the honour of pre-
senting you with a copy. The speech is called, " The
Pope a Pretender ;" and it was delivered by Mr. Seeley, a
bookseller, at a meeting of the parish of St. Dunstan's,
London. Now, in the second place, the Pope told them
what his predecessors had done in their behalf out of their
great care for England, beginning with his predecessor
Gregory the Thirteenth. On the 23d of March, 1623, the
Pope issued a bull in which he deputed a Bishop,—who
was a bishop also in name,—Wm. Bishop, with ample
faculties and powers for the episcopal government of
England. No more was said of him; he soon died, and
the Pope proceeded to tell them of a second, and that af-
ter the death of Bishop, on the 24th of June, 1625, Pope
Urban the Eighth appointed, as his successor in England,
Richard Smith, Bishop of Chalcis. The Pope said no-
thing more about him ; but he (the Rev. Dr. M'Neile)
had something more to tell them, which they would be
glad to hear. It was a little transaction which it was not
deemed convenient or expedient for the Pope to mention.
It was this ; when Richard Smith came into this country,
he was declared guilty of high treason ; a reward of one
hundred guineas was offered for his apprehension, and he
fled the kingdom. (Great cheering.) The Pope pro-
ceeded to speak in his bull of more favourable times for
the Catholic religion in England. It seemed to the Pope
that in the time of King James the Second, more favour-
able days were coming for the Catholic Church in Eng-
land. He (the Rev. Dr. M`Neile) did not wonder at it.
James the Second (cries of " Question, question.) He
was speaking to the question ; he was speaking of the
Pope's bull, which was the very foundation of the whole
affair. James the Second saying to the ambassador of
France immediately-after his accession, that the people of
England were unconsciously Catholic at Leart, and that it
required but little management to make them declare
themselves so openly ' • James the Second attending mass
in a Romish Chapel, with open doors, within two days
of his accession James the Second, in defiance of the
laws of the country, filling the army with Roman Catho-

lic officers, and when the clergymen of the Church of
England turned.over to Rome, giving them dispensations
to retain the incnmes and administration'of their cures;
James the Second sanctioning the building of Roman Ca-
tholic chapels in London ; James the Second depriving the
corporations of England of their ancient privileges ; James
the Second requiring a declaration of tolerance for the en-
snaring of Dissenters to be issued, the real meaning of
which was to damage the Church, and seven bishops of
the Church of England, faithful to their principles, going
to the Tower rather than compromise them. (Great
cheering.) These certainly were circumstances which, as
the bull said, were more favourable to the Catholic reli-
gion, and the Pope told them in his bull that Pope Inno-
cent the Second profited at once by these circumstances,
and sent John Leyburn as his vicar apostolic over all the
kingdom of England. These facts in the page of our his-
tory certainly seemed favourable to the Catholic religion ;
but the page ought not to be closed with these facts, for it
did not terminate there. (Applause.) There were inde-
pendent judges in England, as well as bishops, in those
days (great cheering)—there were faithful, independent

jurymen in England- (renewed cheering)--;the laws were
administered faithfully; the bishops were acquitted; and
all England rang with one shout of triumph. (Loud and
prolonged cheering.) England shone in the light of the
bonfires that were lighted in honour of the victory of the
bishops, which was, in fact, a victory over the Pope.
(Applause and uproar.) Here was another passage from
that page of English history to which the Pope referred
them :—William of Orange sailed down the Channel (en-
thusiastic cheering); he had the English flag at the mast-
head of his ships, and inscribed upon his flag was the
motto which they still inscribed upon their flags, and
were, at that moment, deepening into letters of gold,
namely, " The Protestant Religion, and the Liberties of
England." (A burst of cheering succeeded, in which
nearly all the meeting very heartily joined.) The third
head of the Pope's bull told them of the motives which
had induced him to put his own hand to the work at the
present time. These were-Ist, following the example of
his predecessors ; 2ndly, the movements of hie own heart
towards that portion of the Lord's vineyard in the king-
dom of England ; 3rdly, the falling off of several obsta-
cles in the way. Yes, exclaimed the rev. gentleman, there
were such obstacles : there were penal laws in the Statute
Rook (much cheering and counter cheering)—laws which
their forefathers had been compelled to enact in da, s
when there was more sincerity on the part of the Pope.
(Hear, bear, from the platform.) Those statutes have
been, one by one, removed from the statute book ; the
"obstacles" were falling away with them ; and not only
this, but the acts of the Government and Legislature of

the Government and Legislature_ of the country were

encouraging to the Pope. The endowment of Romanism
in the colonies by the British government, who devoted
many thousands of pounds annually to support what,
Englishman thought wrong, was, no doubt, very encou-
raging to the Pope ; the endowment of Romanism in Ire-
land—the making a national institution of Maynooth—
(great cheering and uproar)--the Romanizing tendencies
of many clergymen of the Church of England ; these were
encouragements, indeed ; and, being urged by such mo-
tives, the Pope further said that he besought the assistance
of the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of God—(a cry of
" Oh, oh !" and laughter)—and of all the Saints, whose
virtues and sanctity. he said, had cast such a lustre on
England, to obtain, by their intercession with God, the
happy success of this enterprise. (Laughter, and cries of
(` Oh. oh !") He (Dr. M'Neile) now proceeded to the
enterprise itself, namely, the division of England into dis-
tricts, of which the Pope himself had declared that of his
own proper motion, and on his own certain knowledge,
and in the plentitude of his apostolical power, he had re-
solved and did thereby decree, the re-establishment—the
re-establishment, mind—of the Catholic Church in Eng-
land. (Hear, hear.) Was there no difference, then, be-
tween what the Pope was doing now, and what had been
done heretofore ? The Pope said—" We decree the re-
establishment"—there-establishment, mind. (Great up-
roar ) He protested that he paid more respect to the
language of the Pope than did the Pope's own adherents.
(Much laughter and cheering.) The Pope decreed the
re-establishment of the hierarchy according to the canon
laws of the church, (let them not forget that, for he would
have something to say about it by and by,) the bishops
deriving their titles from their own sees, constituted by
previous letters and decrees of the apostolical see. The
Pope then began , as in duty bound, with the metropolis ;
in due course he came to Lancashire; in Lancashire there
were to be two bishops, of whom the Bishop of Liverpool
was to be one. (Loud cries of "No Bishop." and great
uproar.) The. Bishop of Liverpool would have for his
diocese—so the bull said—the Isle of Mona, and the dis.
tri, is of Lonsdale, Amountlerness, and West Derby ; and
the other, the Bishop of Salford, wonld exercise his juris-
diction over Salford, Blackburn, and Leyland. Now, he
wished to call the attention of the meeting to the fact that
this was not an appointment for the Roman Catholics of
England only. (Hear, hear.) The Pope did not say so.
He said it was an appointment for England. (Cries of
" Hear, hear," " No, no," and continued uproar.) He
had read the very words of the bull. There was a " peculiar
nicety" (alluding to a remark made by one of the Roman
Catholic priests) in this fact to which he wished to call
the chairman's notice. The mover of the amendment in-
vited the meeting to say " that the pope's:appointment of
an archbishop over the Roman Catholics of Westminister
was no invasion of the queen's prerogative," but the
seconder very conveniently omitted the words "over the
Roman Catholics," and invited us to say " that the ap-
pointment of a Roman Catholic Archbishop of West-
minster was no invasion of the queen's prerogative."
There was what a former speaker called a " peculiar
nicety" in this specimen of Catholic unity and accuracy.
The alteration was important, and made all the difference.
(Loud cheers.) The next head of the Pope's bull asserted
the right of the Pope to divide the provinces of England
into bishoprics, and of course to increase the number of
bishops in such manner and to such extent "as it may ap-
rear meet before the Lord." (Cheers.) The Pope natu-
rally imagined that if the first move succeeded, it would
lead to such an increase in the number of Roman Catho-
as would render it necessary to subdivide the dioceses,
and increase the number of bishops. Very natural th;s ;
there seemed to be good sense in it ; but it yet might not
be absolutely necessary. (Cheers.) He now came to a
matter of more consequence. The Pope defined the
powers and obligations of the new archbishop and bishops,
both as it regards the government of the clergy over the
people, and as it concerned these powers and obligations,
and declares that they will enjoy " all rights and privileges
which the archbishops and bishops can use, according to
the disposition of the sacred canons and the apostolic
constitutions. And they will likewise be equally bound
by all the obligations." Mr. Horsfall had referred to
some of these in the bishop's oath—" to which other
bishops and archbishops are held by the common disci-
pline of the catholic church." (Hear.) It might be
interesting to many present to have some proof of what
the canon law of the Roman Catholic Church was. He
knew the meeting would not like much reading, but it
was a very short extract he intended to make. He held a
volume in his hand from which he must ask permission to
read one page, as illustrating the nature of the canon law.
It was the able work of Mr. Hallam on " the Middle
Ages," and in it there was one chapter on the subject of
" Ecclesiastical power." The rev. gentleman then read
as follows :

.•
This general supremacy effected by the Romish church in
the 12th and 13th centuries derived material support from the
promulgation of the canon law. The foundation of this juris-
prudence is laid in the decrees of council and the rescripts or
decretal epistles of popes to (locations propounded upon emer-
gent doubts relative to matters of discipline and ecclesiastical
economy. As the jurisdiction of the spiritual tribunals in-
creased, and extended to a variety of persons and causes, it
became almost necessary to establish an uniform system for
the regulation of their decisions,. After several minor compi-
lations had appeared. Gratian, an Italian monk, published,
about the year 1140, his Decretum,' or general collection of
canons, papal epistles, and sentences of fathers, arranged and
digested into titles and chapters, in imitation of the Pan-
dects,' which, very little before, had begun to be studied again
with great diligence. This work of Gratian, though it seems
rather an extraordinary performance for the age when it ap-
peared, has been censured for notorious incorrectness as well
as inconsistency, and especially for the authority given in it to
the false decretals of Isiderei and consequently to the papal
supremacy. It fell, however, short of what was required in the
progress of that usurpation. Gregory IX. caused the 5 books
of Decretals' to be published by Raimodd de Pennalort, in
1234. These consist almost entirely of rescripts issued by the
later popes, especially Alexander 111., Innocent 111., Honorius
111., and Gregory himself. They form the most essential part
of the canon law, the • Decretum' of Gratian being compa-
ratively obsolete. In these books we rind a regular and co-
pious system of jurisprudence, derived, in a great measure,
from the civil law, but with considerable deviation, and, pos-
sibly, improvement. Boniface VIII. added a sixth part,
thence called the Sext,' itself divided into five books, in the
nature of a supplement to the other five, of which it follows
the arrangement, and composed of decisions promulgated
since the pontificate of Gregory IX. New constitutions were
subjoined by Clement V. and John XXII., under the names of
Clementines' and Extravagantes Johannis' ; and a few more,
of later pontiffs„ are included in the body of canon law, ar-
ranged as a second supplement, after the manner of the'Sext,'
and called Extravagantes Communes.' "

Here was a plain statement of what the canon law was,
viz., the rescripts and the decrees of the Romish Church,
mixed up with sentences of the fathers. It was of deep
importance to refer to this, because the distinction now
taken, and pressed on public attention between the spiri-
tual and the temporal jurisdiction required an answer;
and if they could not give an answer they were bound to
admit that which they contended did not exist—a differ.
once between the spiritual and temporal jurisdiction
claimed by the Romish Church. (Cheers.) In the ad.
dress which had recently been presented to the Queen
from the Roman Catholics of England, and written,
as it was supposed, by Cardinal Wiseman, her Majesty
was assured " that the step which had been taken was a
purely ecclesiastical one ; that the authority claimed by
the Pope was purely spiritual ; and that it left un-
touched every tittle of her Majesty's power, authority,
and jurisdiction, as sovereign of these realms, and did
not in the slightest degree diminish their loyalty and
respect for her person and throne." (" Hypocrisy.")
Hypocrisy ! yes, but they wanted an argument. (Hear,
hear, and cheers.) In the letter which the Romish
Bishop Ullathorne had written the other day in the Times,
he stated that " the re-establishment of an Archbishop
and additional Bishoprics in this country was solely with
a view of enabling the Roman Catholics fully to carry out
the advantages which had begn conferred upon them by
the Emancipation Act, and that it related only to spiritual
matters." This is written in adaption to. British law and
British habits of thought and feeling. A. reference to the
canon law under which these gentlemen are trained to
exercise their powers and faculties derived from the Pope
will throw light upon this. I read from the celebtated
constitution' of. Boniface, entitled " Unam Sanetam"—
" The church is oue body, and has one head. Under its
command are two swords, the one spiritual, the other
temporal ; that to be used by the supreme pontiff, this by
kings and knights, by his license and will. But the lesser
sword must be subject to the greater, and the temporal to
the spiritual authority." " Uterque est in potestate eccle!.
site, spiritualis scilicet gladius et inater!Ois. Bed
is
quidem pro ecclesia, ille vero ab ecelesta exercendus :
ille sacerdotis, is maim regum ac militum, sed ad
nutum et patientiam sacerdotis. Oportet anthm gilt_
diutn esse sub gladio, et temporaletn auctontatem

sprituali subjici potestati." (" Hear, hear," and cheers.)
The rev. doctor then read in Latin the passage of the bull
to which he referred, addressing himself to the Roman
Catholic priests on the platform, upon which a gentleman
in the pit requested him to turn round. The rev. doctor
said, " You don't know Latin there." (Laughter.) He
would tell it them in English. "It was indispensable
that a sword should be under a sword, and that tem-
poral authority should be under the spiritual authority."
In connexion with this he would read one sentence more,
and that should be from the great Gregory—he meant
Pope Innocent. (Laughter.) Any man might make a
mistake of the tongue, but it was not every man who at
once acknowledged it and set it right. (Great cheering.)
Pope Innocent, in- his declaration, said :—" As the sun
and the moon are placed in the firmament, the greater
as the light of the day, the lesser of the night, there are,
therefore, two powers of the church, the pontifical having
the charge of souls being the greater, and royal rule,
which is less, to whom the bodies of men are only en-
trusted." Now, there was the distinction between spi-
ritual and temporal authority (hear and applause) ; but
with this addition, which it was not expedient for the Pope
or the Roman Catholic clergy to put forward in their ad.
dress—the addition, that the temporal must be subjected
to the spiritual. (Applause.) And so surely it must be.
They knew full well that wherever a spiritual authority is
established in a country, there no temporal laws, having
temporal sanction, can continue to be of real practical
authority. Fine, imprisonment, pain, ay death itself, to
the body are but mean and contemptible instruments of
power compared with conscience, remorse, exclusive
dealing, eternal agony! (Cheers.) The temporal sove-
reign is but a momentary executioner; the spiritual so-
vereign is the eternal tormentor. (Applause.) Now, it
was here that Romanism, as a system of doctrine, played
into the bands of Romanism as a temporal conspiracy;
the saving grace of God absolutely confined to the sacra-
ments, and the administration of the sacraments abso-
lutely in the power of the bishops end priests. Here was
an engine of tyranny. (Uproar, hisses, and cheers.)
The priests were under no obligation to administer the
sacraments, and they had invented five in addition to the
two ordained by Christ. The Romish people were told
that their present happiness and everlasting salvation
depended upon these sacraments—baptism to begin with,
extreme unction to end with. As long as their conscience
had more power over them than their temporal fears, they
were the slaves of the priesthood who had these sacra-
ments in their hands. (Hisses and applause.) We had
all heard of an interdict from Rome commanding priests
not to give to people the sacraments. This had been
recently the case with Sardinia. The Romish priests
had, in consequence, the means of absolute power : they
could command absolute obedience—they could approach
to military discipline—they could act in masses : and who
does not see at a glance the tremendous advantage arising
from this complete organisation, in a free country like
this, where Protestants act only from extemporaneous
movements and without the suspicion of combination ?
If such an organisation were permitted in this country, we
should soon have civil commotions such as have been the
distress and disgrace of unhappy Ireland for years past.
(Applause and uproar.) No temporal government, stand-
ing on laws with mere temporal sanctions, can long hold
out against a spiritual confederacy, operating on tempo-
rals by means of the consciences of its victims. (Cheers.)
He begged the chairman and the intelligent part of the
audience, to notice that it was practically impossible to
separate what might be theologically separated from tem-
poral jurisdiction and things. As long as men are made
of body and soul, if you give spiritual ddminion over the
soul to one man, then it is in vain you keep temporal au-
thority over tne body to another. (Cheers.) Has the
Pope no temporal power in England ? (" No, no," from
the Romanists.) Then see how close the connexion : see
what a noise his spiritual power makes now. (Cheers.)
The connection was in fact inseparable. His spiritual
power had induced those present to come from their peace-
ful occupations to that amphitheatre, and refuse to submit
to it. Spiritual power had done it, because they could not
violate their consciences. Did he blame them for this ? I
He never blamed a misguided conscience, however much
he might pity it. (Hear, hear.) But he would now
pass to the seventh head of the pope's bull, in which he
abrogated the former form of the English church. They
would observe that the pope went back a very long period,
and spoke of the former form of the English church—that
period antecedent to the Reformation, when the whole
professions of the country were outwardly Roman catholic.
Why should he abrogate these forms ? He would tell
why ; because in that time, even in Roman catholic times,
the appointment of archbishops and bishops in England
lav in the crown, and not in the pope. In the time of
William I. there was a contest with the celebrated pope
Hildebrand, on the question of the investiture of bishops.
On the continent the pope succeeded, and the emperor of
Germany was obliged to give way. William, however,
determined not to give way, and he would not leave Hs
bishops to the investiture of the pope. He maintained
his ground, and the pope was obliged to succumb. (cheers)
William Rufus had a quarrel with Anselm on this subject,
and Anselm was banished from the country. Anselm
went to Rome and got further powers from the pope.
While he was absent, Henry I. came to the throne, and
was left to fight it out. Urban 11. excommunicated all
who resisted his decree, and Anselm was the bearer of
this excommunication. The king resolutely resisted this
attempt of the pope, and commanded Anselm to be obe-
dient to his sovereign. Anselm replied that he could not
be disobedient to the pope, upon which the king said that
he would never allow any man who refused him the secu-
rities of a subject to enjoy estates within his dominions.
(Cheers.) He (De. M`Neile) hoped that the sovereign of
England would be ready to say the same—(cheers) and
any person sent from the Pope of Rome who refused, on
that ground, to take the oath of allegiance, would at once
be seen to be a rebel to the Crown of England.—(Cheers.
A voice : " It is time for you to wind up," and cries of
"Go on, go.") He had no doubt that there were some
persons present to whom it would have been agreable
that he had wound up long ago.—("Hear, hear," and
cheers.) There was, unfortunately, an exception in our
history, already referred to by previous speakers—he
alluded to the famous, or rather, as he should say, infa-
mous, instance of King John, It served to teach us the
tone which the Bishop of Rome takes whenever a sove-
reign appears to him either hesitating or doubtful. The
language of the Pope to King John, by his legate, was
worthy of repetition at the present time. It tells us that
he would have us to know that he had full power over the
Church of Canterbury, and did not wait for or require the
consent of princes; and he commanded that whom he
might appoint should be received, on pain of a great curse,
and that he, and he alone, should be chosen whom the
Pope pleased to nominate. The King attempted to stand
by his own prerogative. Two legates from Rome arrived,
and demanded, first, the restitution of lands and rents
received from the Holy Church ; and secondly, to receive
Stephen into his dignity of archbishop, and, moreover.
make such further restitution as the church might think
fit. A sentiment had been largely applauded by some of
the previous speakers, that the principles of the Church of
Rome were unchanged and unchangeable. He would just
remark, that a sword in the scabbard was still a sword.
The rev. gentleman here read from Hallam's History of
the Middle Ages a discussion between the Pope's legates
and the King, from which the Pope claimed the preroga-
tive of setting up whomsoever he pleased, for King—
(laughter)—and that for the future no heir to the throne
should be crowned without the consent of the see of
Rome, according to the well known principle of the
canon law, if the evil (i. e., the heretics) were so weak that
it might be removed without injury to the good, then it
ought to be removed ; but if the evil were so strong that it
could not be removed without injury to the good, then it
must be tolerated till better times. (Cheers.) John cer-
tainly gave way, but in the 40th year of Edward 111. it
was declared in Parliament that any act of King John,
without the consent of Parliament, was without effect

that the act of John was against his coronation-oath and
that all acts of the Pope against the King should be
resisted and opposed to the utmost of their power. The
Pope, in this instance, was obliged to give way, and he
did so. (Cheers.) And here was a good precedent for
the present Pope to follow. (Hear. hear.) But there
was one further argument against them, and used so
strongly, that he felt it necessary to say a fes words upon it.
It was, that they wore afraid to give Catholics fair play in
argument, and that they wanted to use force against them.
This was well expressed in a recent letter of Mr. Ambrose
Phillips. Mr. Phillips said—" Surely, there is common
sense in what the Pope has done, but where is the com-
mon sense in making an outcry about it ? I should
understand the meaning of this outcry if it went a little
further, if it said boldly at once, we feel that Protestant
argument cannot stand against Catholic argument ; only
give Catholicism fair play, and Protestantism must fall
before it, therefore keep it down by force of arms."
Here was the objection, in the words of one who held it
and used it; and it was very well calculated to take effect
on minds ignorant and uninformed ; but if Romanism or
Popery, because there was no need then to mince the
matter or quarrel about names—(hear)—if popery were
exclusively an ecclesiastical system for the diffusion of
doctrines—he should say for false doctrines—(uproar)--
if it were exclusively—
A VOICE : You are a liar.—(Great uproar.)
Dr. M'NEILE.—If it were exclusively a false church,
if it relied exclusively: on arguments for its defence and
propagation, and if we experienced any fear about having
it in full and free operation, then we would be liable to
the full force of this observation.—(Hear, hear.) But
Popery was complex.—(Hear.) It was not exclusively an
ecclesiastical or spiritual system ; it was also a political
conspiracy for the establishment of universal dospotism.
—(Great uproar, hisses, and loud cheers.) Extraordinary
manifestations of feeling arose. In saying what he had
said, he was giving the Pope credit for sincerity, and
those who denied it were charging the Pope with abso-
lute falsehood.—(Cheers.) He declared it was a very
marvellous thing, and it might be recorded for the instruc-
tion of this nation, that a clergyman of the Church of
England, in a public meeting, because he had givenl the
o-
Pope credit for sincerity, and said so, that his own cam
rous and disorderly supporters denied it.
He said that the Pope had declared, by divers bulls,
of which he had read to them, that universal sovereignty
The
sword that kings used being but an under.
was his.— (Applause.) Universal sovereigntygtper
!
the work of the decree which the priest prom lgi
then. could le res
(Hear, hear, and applause.) How,
hat he could be con-
t
short of universal empire ? To say t u seen.
e)
tent with equality in any kingdom, was to say that be had rapatte—od.
u do
asked hypocritically what he did not intend to insist upon.
—(Applause.) To say he did intend to insist upon it,
was to give him credit for sincerity in what he asked. He
said that Romanism was not exclusively a system for
toefachlioiwng a false
readilyitdowetoruinlde.
mlefetitfawirerea,ndthefry had a
free discussion.
Tliete
yhhiardkainsdanmepsslei
nof h
hearing
it a ;ri
nb
gu thiitm. was
Tnhoetya
thered many
they y had
sample of its fairness, for he had to thank the meeting
for
sam-
ples of unfairness, disturbances, and interruptions, when
nothing but argument was intended. We never use
violence. We never interrupt any one's meeting ; if we
go to them, we submit to the chairman. We listen to
what is said. We revolve the argument into matter for

NOT. 261S'

24)

foeietltA4
there is no argument in clamour.—(APPlt. tri?l,4
ge)
future thought; but we do-not clamour, a
very well for gentlemen to speak of the corn I:woriti,j
of an enlightened and a free people,
with h
spirit, the Bible—(great applause)—in their.4o;
p“oversii
it was perfectly true that in argument such w
130100
not to be afraid of anything.—(Applause.)
their reasonings and arguments were all-so,"
falsehood, they were not sufficient against 0.44
(cheers and uproar)—and unless RomaniSni,ries„
in its political aspect—considered in the el,Trotber°o
canon law—unless it be dealt with as sli_ret.4.)
spiracies were dealt with, no temporal Vd ail $
the world could stand. (App! sL an, 010,s
Now, what was to be done ? He ask'," re
Englishmen, with such a demonstrction e,
re
by a spiritual authority on the crown of theirtilde-.
he asked them when a foreign spiritual swor9 Of*,
ed the Crown, and also the laws, lie asked ilifror, 07;
Englishmen, with such a demonstration `.1,5¢0,,1
would they be content to leave matters at
10e100174-
(Cries of " No, no," and uproar.) Would the);_co-or,
merely to stand on the ground they had reccntwo..,oo;
—on that narrow neck of land which for 1:_."d0,71
they had occupied, between Roman aggressiet2
sheerrveo(wi nt
hparti itmhiep
toleration in this land— (applause and cries el, o.ber.
encouragement of Romanism up to the eolne'rordirloi,
could scarcely be expected not to ask more, 5, 7 111
nt;eiter to 5
leßsishoWploi aft
clergy, the other day, expressed the hope lna bat o°l4
session of Parliament there would be adequate__aie;sl
travagant penalties imposed on any such attc(r iihst
He says at present it is illegal, but he hoped 100 e
session of Parliament there would be adequate.es were
travagant penalties. Now, adequate Peolluld Oro
they wanted. (Applause.) But what if it o
to be discovered that, in order to make then, ester,
they must be what some Englishmen vvould tbill"co„ov.;
gent. ( Interruption.) Then came t legoehslat ore;
they to be content with laws or penas t esttso,
3/wioaunledhetshieeyr:lLLat
tbet;
adequate, in order to avoid penalties that we, eel )
pant; or were they to incur the appearance tel degotAt.
gance in order to attain to that which should heinaadL4s
If it should turn out true that, in order ta attawhog hie
Penalties, they must re-enact excluding laws' ) AC!'
was it ? (Cries of " Their own!" and uPrawarilo did ithi
did the fault lie ? (Applause.) With tb,°se
self-defence, or with those who rendereu, I.irne,e, s'""
T-04
unnatural aggression ? (Great a plause.) •9 of N:to
they propose to do ? ( Great coPntusion, eriev,
and . :04
out the Pope !" "Three cheers for the P°PeA; ther°' 810
Popery !") He had two questions more to at:- lotion
then that portion of it was done. Then eg "nqgd°o' 701
had to ask them, as subjects of that united and Sri ebl
this—Will you give up Ireland ? (Cheering,', 100' r
"No, no !" and groans.) She was their° ;Jid gresti,
affection, by confidence. (Cries of "No !" 019°5-11
roar.) They had made her what she was"; !No, 'wire
and would they now desert her ? (Cries 01 .rsage'itea
If Ireland had been left to herselfl fifty Ye- °'jto
; , duo heft,
stead of consolidating the union, the woos ,boh
existing had been snapt asunder ; he believea,,eit
that time, the Protestants of Ireland, by sndtore
gence, their industry, their activity and learn'°;;eld
superior powers, both of body and mind, 001:elei
at this instant an ascendancy in Ireland. (Alere'lt 44
lowed by uproar.) British influence bad hit' 0611et'
British influence had overlaid their pnwersLobeli 04
and elevated against them their Roman Cal;decilpand
series. (Cheering.) British ba" had
influence d 0
their bishops ; British influence had fro'lequeseeditii
starved their Scriptural schools; British in'ithsn'°b
encouraged popery in Ireland—and still, °°r-(istrethgl
all this, there were more defections from we „ios6
Rome in Ireland at that moment—more coct 'via'
in any country in Europe. (Great uproar.) neroosattf
them, would they as honest men, and ss ee",vo "beit
lishmen—would they be content to rid their °leave t jet
of the assault from Rome, and would ll'eY,,biag
„,tlsp)
poor sister, whom they professed to love, ;r",,
and
that grasp ? (Applause, and cries of " No
f this
Then let all the measures taken in the face 0 leis rer
movement —let all their measures include
shop
let
(Great applause, and uproar.) He had 00 qteed °Pars;
would they be content—(cries of "No l and
~
g°,lo'
drink")—to leave this matter in the hands °' The
ment ? (Cries of " No, no !" and uproar.),to far,:e",q
her Majesty's Government had spoken, an°,
had gone they thanked him for what he he ° 5- ) PC the
But observe how far lie had gone. (Hear, llettr. th3t10,41
said, "on this subject then, I will only st°„o.'ioeche•c'e,
present state of the law shall be carefully esb relereJ•
the . ',le • ,
propriety of adopting any proceedings (nisi .ftli
to the recent assumptions of power deliberatelY coo lot
He did not pledge himself to take proceolingnsiv 5145,1e1''
laws should be found to be adequate. 11' %ill bba3l
the propriety of adopting any proceedings eli
herately considered. (Hear.) Lord John 11°05/5 0,000
noble opportunity—(laughter, and uproar)-; -tia"P!elfAt
off—(cries or order)—the coil of ultra an hiol"tber
liberalism (disapprobation);— and showiis '24 feels
Protestant determined to maintain what
ibis' na
died for. (Great applause.) Let him d°, eati°ri
may make his government a blessing
to Ell' fits°ti
to the world ; let him do this, and the rrotesrmebeit
empire had no disposition to disturb him' gard'r,'
There was no political movement in this, re' the':
own policy at home, and even those aniongstotectj°olo
had opposed him in the great question of Pr) raj for
free trade, would not disturb him. (APP13,115,,e; lVceocl;
could answer for many of them ; they had ,'"from f it
such a change as might follow his retuova',94,„
(Hear, hear.) They had no fancy for a Gof`iato(C°;i)
Tractarians in high places. (Cheers.) Lora acitl too.
re
was a clever man, and if he had only sagn'ettl
fusion, and a cry, " He has Church poroa
—to see the present movement of the nation, oven'ottr,
in advance of it, he might consolidate his !II bese,soei
bless his country, honour his sovereign. °lnt 011¢ 14°J
world through the means of England. (Oreille ties Pit
Thers was a cause for this movement; fecer
the Papacy had been itching for years ttr
old England. (Great applause and gekl,,scrbee, tit
was very desirable, but it was somewhat u-nasp
plause)—the risk had been run, and the refo;
made. • (interruption). Now, would firi,:ce tile;„Psti(v,
(cries of " No")—would they submit to .I,—pecle6,te'l'a
gative of their sovereign in civa,- ra 0'
any respect or Pbe Ohs
or spiritual abridged by a forel n rin t
(cries of " No," and uproar)—org must the hro°6 t,,lb
to feel that what he had got was too hot tO (1)57001
must either let go his hold or lose his fingeri tb"
applaute, and uproar). Therewas emu` •or (lIA
to
went amongst every branch of the e°— ty• t f
amongst every class of Christians in the coon,hoio in
hear). There was cause why dissenters shostioed.
movement. They had enjoyed what they the° libei4
valued liberty, civil and religious liberty', t. A
their own worship. (Hear, hear, and cheer:Ll iniidie'r 0
they valued—all that enlightened the hut% tfos, t
that opened the mind of man to the works arl 10" r
letn If
his God. Then (continued the rev. gent ).
heed of the mercies" of Rome. (Hear, hearoulato AtO
wanted a proof of how dominant Romanisr;sioli tlr
their worship, look to the history of their on
n' bill
South Seas. (Hear). Trace those exeellen'ut t 0
the London Missionary Society°° in•
frel
se . miss' •
Observe the success that attended their al v 0 old
island ; how people came under their spiritu,cri
from any temporal jurisdiction—for ther soborlbti.r
church, not a conspiracy. (Hear, hear). me aOl
the Queen was used. ueen Pomare beecBtbe
tian. Then observe how the jealously °l faiP,,;; "-
envied that bright spot in the darkness of the
es urfrli
how. priests were sent out to force therDse ry eign.ado
unwilling people, and most unwilling 01.011,
compelled an entrance into that island,„• Inneelyi ttAil
landing. They were desired to leave, “e„7thor
was against her right, her rule, and her,-.orisoille!i
they remained, But they had a spiritua, „,,„
and it would not yield to temporal anti-107)d yi reo'
hear, hear). They remained. The queeta
advised to maintain her ground, had tiles, gq.ool
moved from the island—(hear)--that into fbeetj I;!te;,j•etkri
was possible, for they got themselves en'
course,
and they would not open the doors. Of w'
el
was necessary to break them open, and theYvid be 1,414;4,,e_r
on board French ships as politely as men cd°cliee"iBf4;lyy' are
who did not choose to walk. (Laughter and cot°. deo eptight
when complaint was made of this free moven' i,g! e,
jec re 0
testant sovereign in her own dominions .1. pr ,ig L.
tile! io. •
measure things by their amount, but by moot. ifice
and though her dominions were small and
rest pt
ficant in the great history of the world, a g 04100,1 ki 4:l'.
was involved, which all men should look tr „sries ,
complaint was made of her treatment of tli
_Ste ro 90(.70 '!isttil'tuei
ble France, at the dictation of the Pope, se" ObellA, I in Pas
(anu cow•4l. a t 1
war against that most defenceless woman to se re \:+:1 e
bombarded the place as far as was necesso‘oi,b
his purpose, and made a lodgment for his .1`
trestedhilired,
q~theetter of
and the Protestant dissenting mission yeas were trig Ay 0,1,e,,4;
themselves would be treated if the PoPe wiild o°;tetrie Nqe,Cot:
power. (Loud cheers). To all this he wi„renclineti,d
in conclusion, the language of an eloquent ,',,es French
man on the subject. There were three co,l_,,,hey 0.115 Of
them—neutrality, complicity, or hostility. Art!, littet
neutrality it was death. If they folded tilt, Ottlid otlptit,lettplit,(t)'
might as well make their wall. -(Laughter.4.,It
tit ig.i
all, it would be no use to do so, for their "Of) 'ak1.1)1,,,Yi411,1
inherit. (Hear.) Complicity was disgraTce o,eer;f t
joining a conspiracy against the independfu,. (C°l',e t bi
queen and country. There remained hostilMtion, to .1 1,4,14,41
They must take a high, calm, and stead} P 05.1 tint,
0177 °
did not start up in England as on the conli” it 04 ikt4t,at:teg
pulled down the next moment. (Applause.) it e,;;•6,
an easy thing to get Englishmen up, nor f°9ltosticle9 kirotll4.l„
put them down when once up. (Applause.' tioit'o9
calm, cool, calculating, reasonable, persere. the 00 \144:4,11 ~e it theta
mined, and eternal hostility—hostility again 9" 00' PI Da'
of Rome. (The rev. gentleman resumed his Jiro
the most overpowering burst of ap lause.) tre!te,,lp ih,
Mr. HENRY RIPLEY said he hadP been et0"0185 ;qt NetYpet
the duty of seconding the resolution, and ile•ch ;qsl)444,,,tiak
that he quite concurred in the sentiments w°l I ApP O),A &;,,ir •
expressed, in the eloquent address of the mov,r• ent IV 11,1; -
The'he
resolution,end° c 510,17 '4'4 ,
together with the am A , ,h 4„
had been previously proposed by the Rev.° "
n theree j &to
was then read. The amendment was Put t" the ,r 1-I*. t
and negatived by even larger thali 01,1 ic,l4t
a majority trZtkittiqi wit
one. the ,het,‘",f, qt,,!etti°,l
Mr. FRANCIS SHAND said that, iv.' ter be pit 140i(i
Mr. M'Neile thrilling in their ears, and his f'd p 4 6.:1141 eq
arguments settled in their hearts, it weti • 10.bo°°1
him, at that late hour, to take up their tioLsc'n ieteop, itstot k(Drt:
consistency of the church of Rome had •oi 040 ;
Pig The' i4ll 11(141441
this aggression, so it behoved protestant &be tt )•,„
it as emphatically as possible. (cheer.. to 'to \AN.ye‘lo,
duty was to give a word of encouragoneetio, C. N41,,,t45. kru
minister. They admired his indigos, thefoies46 I,ViN,tl;
waited for his action—(hear, hear)--incrwoof tp,44,
that be would not stop short of takim, iotoiroo,)
vet ttr,.
which were necessary to be taken tel rrttscbeefortslsoil (t4rit4'„
testant interest and defend the crown. ‘k ,019
titcs t 00kk)51,L
had generally been his (Mr. Sliand's/gojes i 004,011 O„tettiilit
N tri
stand opposed to the measures of her, „ tk ,
tern, he rejoiced exceedingly that that u4't her ba
tkt 41i
t le 5
to applaud the noble sentiments of, a- to

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