The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1844-01-30 00:00:00

PORT PENRHYN, OR BANGOR SLATE
QUARRIES.

AATILLIAM YELVERTON and Co. (late Fletcher
V and Yelverton) beg to inform the Merchants and
Public, that they are appointed by the Hon. E. G.
DOUGLAS PENNANT, his SOLE AGENTS at this PORT
for the SALE of the PENRHYN and BANGOR
SLATES, and that they can supply orders for Exporta-
tion or domestic use, on the most favourable terms.
Also, Writing Slates, Welsh Oil Stones, &c., at the Ma-
nufactures' Prices and Discounts.
They have on Sale, Slate Pencils, Patent Slate Ridging.
and Ridging Tiles, Slate Chimneypieces, Hearth Stones,
Grave Stones and Tombstones, Slate Cisterns, Baths and
Mangers, Slate Slabs, .Billiard Teb:e Beds, Draining Slate
Soles and Draining Tiles, Laihs and Plasterers' Hair.
23, Waterloo-roa'l, Liverpool.

Jan. 30, 1814.

Zaantrb.

WANTED. a SI ruATIoN as NURSEMAID or
HOUSEMAID, by a respectable Young Womall,
used to Children, and who can have first-rate testimonials
from the last Family in which she has lived.
Address J. M., Standard-office.

TO PARENTS AND GUARDIANS.
A CLERGYMAN, in Liverpool, is anxious to make
1711- known that there is a (1,-sir,ible opportunity for
SENDING One or Two YOUNG MEN to the CON-
TINENT, under the care of a Gentleman of amiable
manners and domestic habits, and who possesses all the
qual.tications for such a charge.
Apply, by letter, to the Rev. T. 111AcGILL, Old aura.

WANTED, UNFURNISHED APARTMENTS►
consisting of Sitting-room, Bedroom, and Set-
vanes-room, in the neighbourhood of Rodney-street ot
Abercromby-square; they must he fitted up with every
convenience. (Jr a BACHELOR'S HOUSE, in the
same neighbourhood. Rent not to exceed £45.
Address A. 8., Box L 34, Postoffice, Liverpool.

TOWN COUNCIL PROCEEDINGS.

Yesterday, a special meeting of the Council was held at
the Town-hall, for the purpose of taking into considera-
tion and determining upon the proceedings of the Dock
Committee, on the subject of further dock accommoda-
tion, north and south of the present line of docks, upon
which the Council of the 31st of Oct. last came to the fol-
lowing resolution,—" That it is expedient that a special
meeting of the Council should be called for an early day
after the 9th of November next, to take into consideration
the subject of going to Parliament for power to purchase
land, &c., to the north and south (both or either) of the
present line of docks, for further dock accommodation;
and also for power to make a communication by water
from the proposed new north docks, eastwardly, to the
Leeds and Liverpool Canal, and to purchase land neces-
sary for that purpose ; and that in the meantime the Dock
Committee be at liberty to give the requisite parliamentary
notices, all proceedings thereon being subject to the de-
termination
tn
n e
na thelonfd a
fteCouncil,
ha
ofs
November
trustees, specialatanext, and a
meet-
ingl
subsequent proceedings of the Dock Committee relating to
the same subject ; and also to take into consideration the
proceedings of the Finance Committee, with reference to
the town dues, and comprising the appointment of an out-
door officer at £250 Per annum. The NI kYon. took the
chair at eleven o'clock, at which time there were about 30
members in their respective places.
The DEPUTY Tow N-CLERK was about to read the pro-
ceedings of the Dock Committee, when
Mr. PARKER rose and said, he should wish the Town-
clerk to read the sth and 6th of Victoria, chap. 104, s.
inasmuch as it might save some discussion.
The TOWN-CLERK immediately complied with the re-
quest. The section set forth that it should not be lawful
for any member of a town council to vote or take part in
any discussion in which such member should, either di-
rectly or indirectly, either by himself or his partner or
partners, have any pecuniary interest whatever.
Mr. NORTH said, it had been stated over and over
again before, and that he wished to state it now again,
that there was no intention on the part of the Harrington
Dock proprietors to take part in the discussions or divi-
sions on this subject.
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE thought the Harrington Dock
proprietors might take part in the discussion, provided
they confined themselves to that part of the subject which
related to the purchase at the north end of the town. He
called attention to the fact, that all the members of the
council were interested in this great question, either di-
rectly or indirectly.
The TOWN-CLERK admitted that there was a general
interest which the law could not possibly be intended to
affect. It was difficult, however, to separate the subjects
of north and south.
Mr. HODGSON expressed a hope that this preliminary
matter should be rightly understood. The question would
be, whether the proposed improvements should be made;
and then the next question would be, as to how they
should deal with the property itself. In other words, the
question would be, whether docks should be made at the
north or south, or both, and then they would have to de-
cide as to the land they were to purchase. If, there-
fore, those who happened to have an interest in the Har-
rington Company were to be precluded from discussing
and voting on the question, others would hereafter be pre-
vented from considering any improvements in the town.
Mr. EVANS said they had to deal with positive law in
the matter. With regard to the Dock question, it was
either one question or else it was many. It was either
north and south combined in one, or else it was the north
against the south. The question, therefore was, whether
interested parties should engage in a decision of the south
as against the north.
Mr. H. HORNBY, as one interested in the Harrington
Company, expressed his willingness not to take part in
either the discussion or the division. He contended that
the members of that company could not vote for the pur-
chase of the estate, nor vote in any way on the subject, as
the voting against the purchase of the north might in-
directly secure the purchase of the south, and vice versa.
Mr. HODGSON thought he should have a right to call
adrntineusstboevinotnedief
thmertshubamnditstnedutha. motion; to the
might have
13 L A Cv
weight
NEf said
locality that
hadM r .
to dbgeseonn
n3s
eau'. gt
iuomn
eedn
euffpMeoentr.atßhllarptßKETT coincided in opinion with Mr. Hodgson-
t
but when they had distinct motions as to north and soutts
it was an evasion to put the subject generally. It was a
question of simple law ; and in a matter of the kind, where
parties might be pecuniarily interested, the law ought to
he construed strictly.
Some further conversation occurred, at the close of
which, it was understood that parties interested in the
Harrington Company could not take part in the discussion.
The DEPUTY TOWN-CLERK having read the proceed-
ings of the Dock Committee,
Mr. G. H. LAWRENCE asked how the proceedings
were to be dealt with ?—whether their confirmation would
depend on a bare majority of the Council, or whether the
veto would have to be exercised, only two-thirds of the
Council being present.

The TOWN-CLERK, at considerable length, replied to
this question. He first called attention to the origin of
the dock estate, and to its altered constitution in recent
years ; after which he cited the opinions of Mr. Wight-
man, Mr. Cresswell, Mr. Starkie, Sir John Campbell.
and Mr. Henderson, to show that the determination of
the present question must be by a simple majority of the
council, not depending on two-thirds to annul and one-
third to confirm.
Mr. BRAIVILEY-MOORE then rose and moved—" That
the proceedings and resolutions of the Dock Committee,
from the 28th of September to the 24th instant, so far as
the same related to extended dock accommodation, be
confirmed • that the Dock Committee be authorised to
prepare and present a bill for carrying the same resolu-
tions into effect, laying before the trustees the plans so
soon as they shall have been printed and prepared, the
Dock Committee having full authority to proceed with
the bill, the Dock-solicitor conferring with the Town-
clerk on the subject, and settling the same with him,
subject to the approbation of the trustees; and that the
Dock Committee be authorised to affix the seal of the
trustees, preparatory to the bill being brought in." In
proposing this resolution, Mr. Moore spoke for upwards
of an hour and a quarter. He commenced by saying, that
some little misunderstanding appeared to exist in the
minds of certain members, with respect to the report of
the Dock Committee not having contain d any particular
recommendation. But no resolution on his head was ne
cessary or called for, inasmuch as resolutions recommend-
ing dock extension were in existence three months since.
And, further, it was unnecessary on the present occasion
to deal with the plans. They had five or six weeks be-
fore they need come to any decision as to the plans. It
might be as well, however, to state that the plans had been
under consideration—that a great many others had been
submitted, and that the estimates would not be materially
altered, probably not more than about £5,000 to £lO,OOO.
(Hear.) He believed it would be a waste of time were he
to occupy the attention of the council at any length in
proving the necessity that existed for dock extension.
With such an array of evidence as had been taken, he be-
lieved they would be all pretty much agreed that dock ex-
tension was required. He might, if he were so inclined,
detain them with a history of the number of times the
flags had been flying—the number of years the docks had
not been run dry, and the danger incurred by keeping
them in their present condition ; but all this was unneces-
sary. He contended that there had been a great and re-
gular progressive increase of not only the commerce
of the town, but of the shipping generally. If they
went back as far as their records extended; if they
went
time since by five or seven years, they would find
back, for instance, to 1751, and divided the
that there had been a progressive and great in-
crease in the commerce of the port. They would find this
had gone on from time to time. In the eight
1819, it had been 420,000 tons ; in the eight years ending
1827, 457,000; in the eight years ending 1835, 542,000;
years ending
in the eight years ending 1843, 676,000 ; and for the past
year, ending the 31st December, '43, as compared with the year ending the 31st of December, '42, there had beets
withft
rina
deer ne;cioannnidrielhai
reconciling
eitnghgeet hdei
tre-
ceiptspersons
question
n rsoefae
as: esp2etloorBilt
onh20:10e0.
di,
increase
difficultye tae sane s,
be understood that these returns bad been taken from
of trade
This would settle the
official documents. He had heard it remarked that some
quan-
tity of tonnage here and that of London with the customs'
receipts of both places. The Liverpool Customs' receipts
were about one-third the amount of those of London. They
amounted to four millions in Liverpool and to twelve mil-
lions in London ; but parties forgot, when contrasting
tipts of both places, that the great staple coming
all
intorace Liverpool paid, comparatively speaking, no duty at
the imports into London consisted principally
of articles for home consumption, which id heavy du-
as,tTheh therefore, fo e
Liverpool, no analogy
Customs'between
receipts the ter
pt ilease.e
.T hceur ee
awr
ceeded the whole of the Customs' receipts of Scotland
and Ireland put together; but in order still to show that
Liverpool required dock extension more, perhaps, than
any other town in the United Kingdom, he would
state a fact—namely, that while the increase of the popu-
lation of Great Britain had been 14 per cent., the increase
in the immediate neighbourhood of Liverpool bad in-
creased more than double that amount. The increase
during the last ten years had been 39 per cent., exceeding
Manchester by 9 per cent. It was clear, therefore, that
increased accommodation to meet this demand was called
for, and that it was the duty of the council, as trustees
and faithful servants of the town, to meet those demands
in the best manner that they could. ( Hear, hear.) It
had been observed by Mr. Evans on the last occasion,
that with the increased accommodation which would be

F

red

Jan. :30, 1814

afforded by the Albert Dock, all demands would be met,
or, at all events, that it would act as a luncheon to stay
the appetite of the port for the next two or three years;
but_ the worthy alderman seemed to have forgotten
that the dinner was necessary as well as luncheon,
and that while he was busy in providing them with
luncheon, they must themselves take care and not
overlook the dinner. (Hear, hear.) They should recol-
lect that it would take years before the proposed plans
could be c rried into execution, and that if they did not
look forward, irrespective of what was going on over the
water, they should be found fault with for leaving neg-
lected the present opportunity. (Hear.) It bad been said
by Mr. Aikin that there was no necessity for further dock
extension at present, provided a different mode of manage-
tnent were adopted ; but he shoul I be glad to know who
had ruled the Dock estate for the last eight or nine years,
a'nd why had not this improved manamement ever been
brought into action during that time? (Hear, hear.)
Again it was said that they could gain an increased
accommodation of 10 per cent. by enclosing the ba-
.
Sins ; but there was not a basin connected with the
docks that could, with advantage, be closed, unless it was
the Queen's; and he could show, from the evidence of
nautic .1 men, that it would be impracticable to work the
docks if the basins were enclosed. (Hear, hear.) When
they put those facts together, and considered the probable
increase of their trade for the future—increasing and im-
proving, as lie was happy to say it was at present, and
when they saw the prospect they had of a further increase
of tonnage, and of a larger class of ships, he thought every
one would see the necessity of their going on and affording
greater accommodation. There were one or two trades pe-
culiarly connected with Liverpool, which must, and for ever
would belong to the port, and which contributed very
largely to their resources. He alluded more particularly
to the North American trade, which contributed £90,000
a year. After having stated that the inhabitants of the
town were desirous of having further dock accommoda-
tion, and expressing a hope that the members generally
bad read the evidence taken before the sub-committee, he
went on to remark on the advantages and disadvantages
of the north and south ends. He confessed that in deal-
ing with the Harrington Dock purchase, his feelings at first
were opposed to the purchase, but on more mature conside-
ration, he now came before them and most conscientiously
recommended that that estate be purchased. (Hear, hear.)
He had no interest either north or south, for he held not
any land within the limits of the borough, neither did he
hold any which the docks, north or south, could in the
remotest degree affect. He thought at first there was a
prima facie case against the purchase, but now he be-
lieved he could demonstrate that the purchase would he
an advantage to the dock estate. If they got it for a fair
and reasonable price, a most important part of their work
would have been executed. He must remind the council
that a negotiation had been carrying on at one time for
the purchase of a part of the Harrington estate, so far as
the elbow, which would be noticed on the plans, com-
prising about 70,000 yards, and for which it was thought
desirable to pay rather a high price. Whether it was
desirable to pay the high price for it, it was not for him to
say; but the only value of the land was from being con-
tiguous to their own land, because it was a mere worthless
part so far as the land itself went. It might be of value
to the Dock Committee, because it would enable them to
bring into play what was a useless appendage to the
docks, and that was the Toxteth Dock, upon which
a large sum had been expended for no purpose what-
ever. If, then, they had purchased the 70,000 yards
they should have bought the worst portion. (Hear,
Lear.) Now, the southern part of the estate comprised
about 760,000 feet of sea-wall, made precisely the same as
the one at Prince's pier, and would not require to be
meddled with at all; and on the docks had been expended
the sum of £34,000. If they deducted this sum from
the gross purchase it would reduce the price of the land
to about 265. per yard. But it would be the height of
folly for them to purchase the half of the estate and to
leave the kernel of it; for he could show that the south-
ern end was the productive part, and that there were par-
ties ready to rent that who would give an immediate in-
terest for the outlay, and a profit on the interest the
Dock Committee would give to pay the money. (Hear,
hear.) He contended that they ought either to pur-
chase the whole or none. (Hear, hear.) Complaints
had been made that the docks were not carried more
inland : and on comparing the merits of the north
and south he would remind the council of the dis-
tances. And here he might show the importance
of distances, from valuable documents furnished to
the Dock Committee by Mr. Poole—documents of
great interest. They would learn from these documents
that about'nine-tenths of the produce imported into Li-
verpool went south. (Hear.) Now, the distance of the
Harrington Dock estate from the railway station was 1450
yards, and the distance from the Clarence Dock to the
railway station was 2800, or as nearly double as might be.
If, then, they went to construct docks north of the Cla-
rence, the expense of conveying merchandise would be
increased. The evidence taken before the Sub-commit-
tee went generally to show that dock extension was
necessary, and necessary to the south. They had im-
portant evidence on this subject, and generally, with one
or two exceptions., it was overwhelming, that increased
dock accommodation was necessary, particularly for
the timber trade; and the timber trade was of very great
importance. It was attempted to disparage this trade as
one that did not contribute largely to the wealth of the
town ; but it contributed about £20,000 a year. The
Brunswick Dock altogether contributed about £30,000 ;
as nearly as could be calculated, the timber trade contri-
buted £20,000. But whether it paid a large or a small
sum, it was of vast importance that it thould be kept
at this side of the water ; and the evidence went to show
that if they provided the trade with accommodation it
would not leave Liverpool. (Hear, hear.) If they gave
accommodation for water and quay space, it would be kept
on this side • they had the evidence of a most intelligent
avitness to show, that not one ship in 100 would go to
Wallasey Pool. (Hear, hear.) But that some trade must
lnecessarily be carried on at Wallasey Pool, with a popu-
ation of 18,000, and some small population in the coun-
tyse yound, he was prepared to believe. There would be
this at Wallasey, but the bulk would be carried on
on this side 'f
again shown th
,i accommodation
employed were afforded. After having
"Portance of the timber trade, which he
this particular trade° people, he said the cultivation of
of timber mTuh
portance.
formed than Liverpool was of the utmost im-
etY Would be convinced that a large portion
-8- go from Liverpool, when they were in-
at., during the last ten years, 500,000 houses had
bin-
been constructed in Great Britain, and that a large
Proportion
neighb ,of 33,000 were in course of erection in the
ouruood of Liverpool. Mr. Rankin, in giving evi-
dence about the timber trade, said, that this side would
over
be Conti
the nued to beoccupied,and that he would not go
,tl5nA. water unless could save £l,OOO out of every
'iv (Hear, hear.) If this might be taken as a fair
'Pel
might the the feeling of the timber trade, the council
one thing
carried on at the north. It had once been tried there
and the
a total failure. Mr. Challoner was of opi
that the nion
south end was designed specially for the timber
btrade and that if they could get the Coburg and the Union
a, all demands of the trade would be met. They
it also in evidence that the Brunswick dock might be
turned to advantage if it were confined exclusively to the
trade, and that one-third more business might be done
there; but then they would have to remove the empty
Ships, which must occupy space wherever they Were, and
where were they to put them ? It was agreed upon all
bands
that the trade could not be divided—that it must be kept
in one locality, and that it would never answer to have
part over the water and part on this side. (Hear and
cheers.) It was also in evidence, on the authority
of harbour-masters, pilots, and more especially of the
Marine Surveyor, that there was more smooth water at
the south than at the north, and that ships could be
docked there with greater facility, as the tide ran twice
as fast at the north as it did at the south. Flatmen pre-
ferred the south ; and he had just received a letter from
Mr. Poole, stating that if the flats were to bring salt or
earthenware to the north, they would incur a consider-
able extra expense. (Hear.) Having stated the advan-
tages of the southern locality, and the desirability of the
Purchase of the Harrington estate, he felt bound to allude
to some little difficulty or disadvantage belonging to it,
and that was, that in selling the estate they could not con-
fer the privilege of building warehouses with it. If they
could have done so, it would increase its merits in his
eyes ; but if the Dock Committee went there at all, ware-
houses would be unnecessary, as they wanted it for the
accommodation of the timber trade. However, this was
one of the disadvantages. There was another point
which he felt bound to state, and that was, that in the
Harrington dock act, which might not be known to the
whole of the Council, so long as that estate remained in
in its present hands, and docks were constructed there,
and in case of the receipts of the Liverpool docks falling
short, the Harrington estate would be mortgaged to make
good any deficiency. This would be considered as an
additional security to the bondholders; for, in case of a
falling off, they could claim the whole of the receipts of
the Harrington Dock estate to make up the deficiency.
This would have its weight; but it was only fair
upon his part to state it in case it was not known by
?very one. A great mistake had been committed in al-
"ming private docks to be constructed at all ; but so long
as they could obtain the estate at a fair and reasonable
trice, it was their duty to become its proprietors, to attach
to the general estate, and to do away with the rivalry,
for, in his opinion, the dock estate ought not to have any
Ttvalry. in Liverpool. (Hear, bear.) He then allude to
the north end, which he said was much exposed to d the
thnortb-west wind ; but still accommodation was wanted
ere, and traffic
tion was opened v would increase when a communica-
ie th the Leeds and Liverpool Canal.
(Hear, hear.) It h 1
he should
h be sorry
veral ha been said by Mr. Bulley, that
he a bondholder if those se-
out;sc ernes of the Dock Committee were carried
but it might be satisfactory to Mr. Bulley and
others to know, that, in carrying out those matters,
the Dock
_ Committee would have, according to the esti-
of, 7, 0 the past year, sufficient funds to meet the interest
diet that au that
• -
Would be required, and be would venture to pre-
into 0 long before the proposed docks should have come
operation north or south, they would have a very large
4urplus '
101 l Hear, hear.) Mr. Moore proceeded at much
!,_lllkrther and, in the course of his remarks, stated the was not so fearful of the Wallasey Dock project
many of the public seemed to be.
Nicol, seconded the motion.
alfir• EVANS said that the calculation which lie bad,
_llowed this, that in what they had heard from the chair-
nlaa the expenses of maintenance and repairs had been
alt,ogrether left out of view.
Zr. NricoL.—No, no : there they are upon the paper.
sent •• EvANs..—The interest upon the dock debt at pre-
„_ Is £l39' - 000
Mr •
M,:,vaItAMLEY-.SIOORE.—How do you make that out,
Mr es.?
(Lau., 1, ANS.—The interest and expenses I mean.
Pairsuter.) Now, the cost of salaries, wages, of re-
here' and general expenses, was about £77,662 ; then
was the interest of the monev upon the Albert Dock
" its warehouses, which, together with the new docks,

would make some £87,000. The result of the whole
would be, instead of having a surplus, there would be a
deficiency of more than £50.000 a year. Now, what would
be the consequence of that? The real interests the
dock estate, and the community here, were so far from
agreeing with the Chairman of the Dock Committee that
rival docks ought not to be prevented, that they thought
we ought to have the risk of providing dock accommoda-
-1 tion for those who require it. He was of opinion that it
they went on as they were now going on the/ would be
enabled either to pay off their debt or to reduce their
rates ; but if they got into a deficiency, in place of a sur-
plus, they would be in a groove, and must raise their
rates, because they could not, like an individual, put up
with the loss. This would be most mischievous to the
dock estate at a period when they ought to he in a position
to lower their rates, in order to compete with those on the
other side of the water, who were offering 100 percent. re-
duction of dockage. In place of reduction they would posi-
tively have to raise their rates. There was no escaping that.
They had heard of the increase of trade, and some wonder-
ful good wishes had been uttered towards those over the
water; but where was the increase to go? It all entered
the estuary of the Mersey, and would not those on the
other side not only get it, but nibble away part of that
which they never had on this side the water. The chair-
man of the Dock Committee could not have had so much
experience as he (Mr. Evans) had had, from the number
of years lie had been engaged in the trade of the port,
and also in the United States, or he would not have said
that vessels would go over to the other side of the river
to discharge, and then c one to this side to take in their
cargoes. If they could discharge on the other side of the
river why not load there, and that they would do, as for
one vessel which went out with a general cargo, there
were one-hundred which went out in ballast, or with
coals, salt, crates, iron, and such things as these—articles
which could be deposited anywhere. It was always a
good thing to give a homely illustration to an argument,
and that might be done very easily. It was said one side
of Bold-street was preferred to the other, and it was true
that one side was not so much frequented as the other ;
but, he would ask, were there not shops on the other
side? So with the other side of the water—if you give
them docks, and quays, and wkrehouses, they would have
trade just in the same manner as there were shops on
I both sides of Bold-street. (Laughter.) But it was said
J there were no railways on the other side of the water. He
j however contended that the other side in this respect
j possessed equal advantages to this side, and there were
greater and cheaper facilities for passing goods up the
country. It was therefore evident that vessels would go
. to the other side, discharge, and get away with greater
facilities than on this side. There had been calculations
about getting stone and other matters at the north, but it
was said they would have to go beyond the proposed
docks. He admitted that there would be advantages in
that respect, but there was no question that there
would be no necessity for going beyond the foundation
of the dock for all the stone which would he required.
(Hear, hear.) Among other arguments for the in-
crease of the timber trade, alteration of the tariff had been
mentioned, but that did not afford to Liverpool advantages
which were not possessed by other ports; and when gen-
tlemen told them that unless they could have a reduction
of two thirds in the expense of dock accommodation, they
would remain on this side, he looked at it something in
the same way as the celebrated Canute did at the sea ;
for a person who would pursue such a system and not
yield to the natural course of things must be destroyed.
Mr. Charles Challoner had observed that we should not
lose our trade, but that they would have a trade of their
own over the water, and after that he observed we should
lose nothing of importance. He might consider by the
word importance that they would take the increase of the
trade, but when they came to look at the advantages to
be derived from cheapness, if it amounted to only one
farthing per foot, no one would be able to contend against
it. Aa to the evidence of Mr. E. Challoner, that was most
decided. He said if another dock were made, and the
present system pursued, so soon as there were facilities
offered he would remove his establishment to the other
side of the water. But there was no necessity for that.
They could discharge their vessels on that side, and there
would be yard keepers and others, so that the timber could
at once be taken into the country by railways and other
means. lie was not one to deny the value of the timber
trade or any other branch of trade in the town. On the con-
trary, he was of opinion that all hung together, and were
dependent on each other just like warp and weft; but
when gentlemen spoke of an increase in the trade of the
town, they spoke of the increase over the last year instead
of looking what it was over former years. They all ad-
mitted, however, that the Brunswick Dock would be quite
sufficient if left to itself for the whole of the timber trade,
therefore they ought to pause before they attempted to
provide anything more for that particular trade, where-
as they were going to make a dock at the south
end, with the western quay useless, in order to make
the eastern quay valuable for the timber trade, and
it was proposed to remove the timber trade out
of the Brunswick Dock. If they did that, it was
not accommodating the timber trade at all, but the
general trade of the port, and then came the question of
north and south again. But whatever the council might
think of the new dock, the gentlemen in the timber
trade thought differently. They wanted a waste dock.
Did the council think they Would leave the fair field they
now occupied "to batten on the moor ?" The Bruns-
wick Dock was now opposite their yards in a most con-
venient position, and they would not leave it. As to the
expense of it, that was estimated at £250,000, but he had
no doubt it would be much nearer the mark at £iioo,ooo,
and they could not have a dock exclusively for the timber
the income of which would pay the expenses of construct-
ing and keeping it in repair. If they went to parliament
for the proposed measure with a threat hanging over their
heads of being made to pay £lO,OOO a-year for clearing
the mud out of the docks, together with the enormous
expense he had mentioned, they had certainly more nerve
than he had. They had heard from the chairman that
Plunkington Bank was a protection ; but according to the
evidence of the Harbour-master, (which he said he was
prepared to prove,) it was an impediment to the docking
of ships so great as to make a difference of an hour and
a half. When that bank became a protection it must be
dry, and of course of no use for navigable purposes.
Those, therefore, who said it was a protection had not,
certainly, got into deep water, but were aground. (Laugh-
ter.) He could not conclude without observing, that if
the proposed measures were consummated, it would in-
volve the Dock Estate to such an extent, that it would be-
come the prey of the other side of the water. If it was
carried out they would be depriving themselves of the ad-
vantages of dock warehouses, which he had no doubt
would one day or other be the only remediable means of
saving the port from ruin. (Laughter,) They would
not b able to place them on the dock quays with ad-
vantage, because these quays would be already mort-
gaged, and they would add to the security of the
mortgagee, without being able to raise more on them. As
to those who cried out, that by building warehouses they
were raising a great monopoly, it might be sufficient to
observe, that if a public body did that which was for the
advantage of the public generally., and not for a few indi-
viduals, it, would be no monopoly; but if they handed
over the paver to erect warehouses on the dock quays to
a few individuals, that would be creating a monopoly.
After a few observations respecting the mode of managing
the docks in London, Mr. Evans resumed his seat.

Mr. ASPINALL moved that the debate be adjourned til
eleven o'clock tomorrow.

G. H. LAWRENCE seconded the motion.
The MAYOR put the question, and it was carried.
Mr. BLACKBURN prayed for a longer adjournment.
The evidence laid before the council occupied 468 pagas,
and it was impossible it ceuld be read and considered in
so short a time.

Mr. AIKIN said he would second Mr. Blackburn's
amendment for further time.
The MAYOR.—The motion was put and adopted before
Mr. Blackburn made his.
Mr. BIRKETT said, if Mr. Blackburn really wished for
further time, why had he not made his motion at the com-
mencement of the debate.
Mr. D. HODGSON also thought the motion ought to
have been made at the commencement of the debate, as
it would be exceedingly inconvenient to postpone the de-
bate now, after it had been half got through.
The MAYOR decided that the original motion was
adopted before Mr. Blackburn spoke at all, and the coun-
cil adjourned at ten minutes past three.