The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-07-05 00:00:00

lk

subject of tithes. He was told that his first bill, the bill of last
session, would increase the disturbances of Ireland; but he
would not heed those who told him so; and what had been the
result? Blood had been shed iu various parts of the country,
and no tithes could be collected except at the point of the
bayonet. It appeared as if he had thrown Ireland into disturb-
ance in order to introduce his favourite measure, the coercion

bill.-By the aid of that bill tithe had been collected with greater
rigour than before, and as the last feather broke the camel's
back, so the last exertion of the power of that bill had driven
the unarmed peasantry of Ireland to resist its execution at
Middleton, even when enforced by detachments of police and
military. After a general contrast of the speech of Mr. Lit-
tleton with that of Mr. Stanley, he said that the former gentle-
man had held out to the people of Ireland the prospect that
tithe should be extinguished altogether, when in stepped the
latter gentleman and said, " Oh, no! they must be kept up to
pay the present incumbents of the church of Ireland their full
salaries." (Cries of "Oh !" and cheers.)
Mr. LEFROY contended that the Roman Catholics of Ireland
did not pay for the support of the Protestant church establish-
ment of that country. What injustice was there in letting the pro-
testant proprietors of Ireland_pay for the establishment of their
own religion ? 19-20ths of the land of Ireland was in the hands of
Protestants. (Hear, hear!) Tithes fell in the long run upon
the landlords, and, the Protestants being the landlords., thus
contributed to the support of their own religion. (Hear, hear!)
Besides, it was not fair to consider the church of Ireland merely
in relation with the population of that country. That establish-
ment was the church establishment of a large majority of the
empire, and was therefore entitled to reverence and respect.
He maintained that Mr. O'Connell had greatly exaggerated the
number of benefices in Ireland in which no service had been,
performed lot—the last three years. That honourable and
learned gentleman had confounded parishes with benefices.
Now, everybody knew that there had been in various parts of
Ireland numerous unions of parishes, and he had no doubt that
when those unions were taken into consideration, it would be
found that though there were many parishes, there were but few
benefices in which divine service had not been performed during
the last three years.
Lord ALTHORP said that he should not have troubled the
house upon this occasion had not the hon. and learned member
for Dublin made upon his right hon. friend the Secretary for
the Colonies, one of the most unfair and unprovoked attacks
which he had ever heard in the whole course of his.parliament-
ary experience. (Loud cheers.) He could conceive no other
cause for that attack than this, that the hon. and learned gen-
tleman had been so often engaged in contest with his right hon.
friend, and had been so often worsted by him in debate, that
there rankled in his mind a sense of his Own inferiority (cheers),
and that, therefor; an opportunity having been offero him to
attack his right hon. friend, when his right hon. friend could
have no opportunity to iply, he was to be attacked whether he
had given cause for attack or not. The hon. and learned gen-
tleman had also taunted his right hon. friend with interfering
in the affairs of Ireland, now that he was removed from the Irish
to the Colonial-office. Now, he had yet to learn that his right
hon. friend, in accepting the Secretaryship of the Colonies, had
given up any of his rights as a member of the imperial parlia-
ment. As a member of the imperial parliament it was part of
his duty to attend to the affairs of Ireland, and if he were to
fail in that part of his duty, he knew no man more likely to
make it matter of charge against his right honourable friend
than the hon. and learned gentleman. He did not feel it ne-
cessary to say a word more in reply to the speech of the hon.
and learned gentleman, as he had seldom or ever heard a speech
so full of invective and so destitute.of argument. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BARRON, in reply, contended that hon. gentlemen on the
opposite (the ministerial) side had put forth the .same prin-
ciples as those contained in his resolutions, and he asked how

threy could with consistency oppose his, who had supported the
vote of Thursday or Friday week. His resolutions were mode-
rate, and did not even go far enough for the feelings of the peo-
ple of Ireland. The tithe bill of last year would not give any
relief to lessees of land, and five-sixths of the tenants of the
south of Ireland would still be obliged to pay their tithe to the
clergy. It was to prevent a repetition of the animosity, of the
riots, and bloodshed which had prevailed during the last cen-
tury that he brought forward these resolutions. He wanted not
to deprive the working clergy of any, thing they had; on the
contrary, he would double the income of those, but he would
cut away the incomes of all who did no service. The hon. mem-
ber then observed, that after the decision of the house on the
147th clause, he would not press the question to a division.
It was understood that the motion and amendment were with-
drawn, but no question to that effect was put from the chair.
CHURCH TEMPORALITIES' (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord ALTHORP expressed a hope that as it was too late at
that hour to proceed with the further consideration of the Church
Temporalities' (Ireland) Bill, the house would consent to pro-
ceed with it in the early sitting of Thursday. (Cries of "Oh,"
and "Hear.") The ground on which he made the suggestion
was that there was now very little private business to be done,
and that it could not interfere with petitions, there were so many
other days on which they could be presented. It was understood
that the bill was fixed fur the early sitting of Thursday.
NEW HOUSE OF COMMONS. _

Mr. HUME brought forward the motion of which he had given
notice on this subject. The hon. member quoted the report of the
committee to which this subject had been referred, and which
declared that no alterations could make the present house fit for
the convenient accommodation of the present number of mem-
bers, and that it was therefore expedient that a new house
should be erected. This was the opinion not•only of the com-
mittee but also of a great many members of the house. He
would confidently appeal to the members of even the least ex-
perience in that house whether it was in its present state fit for
the accommodation of members, or for the convenient dis-
charge of public business. Let any man look at the state of that
bar, and say whether in the manner in which it was crowded
night after night it was possible to give proper attention to what
was going on. It was now twelve hours since he had entered
the house that day, and it was often that he had to attend 14, 15,
16, and sometimes 17 hours out of the 24, and he would ask
whether, in the fatigue consequent on such a long attendance,
members ought to be exposed to such an atmosphere, so little
congenial to health as that which they breathed there ? For the
sake of health, then, they ought not to be crowded together in
such a state as they were at present in that house. The suggestion
of a new house was not a thought of the present day. In the year
1739, nearly a century ago, and before the 100 members for Ire-
land were added to the English members, a plan of anew house
was laid before the then Speaker, Mr. Onslow, and by that plan
it was estimated that the expense would not exceed £55,000;
but the expense of the plan recommended by the committee
would not exceed much more than half that sum. It might per-
haps he objected that even this was too great an expense.—
(" Hear, hear," and laughter.) It certainly was something
new to hear from some of the hon. members near him (some
of the supporters of the late administration) anything which in-
dicated that they had taken on themselves the office of protectors
of the public purse,—an office to which they had heretofore not
been much accustomed; but when he found that many of those
hon. members had voted a million of money for the repairs of
WindSor Castle, and he believed not less than £600,000 for the
building up and pulling down repairs of Buckingham-palace,
he hoped that they would not object to so small an outlay as
from £35,000 to £40,000 for a convenient building for the
representatives of the Commons of England, (Hear, hear.)—
It was proved in evidence on the statements of the most com-
petent judges that the present house would not afford convenient
accommodation to more than 350 persons ; how, then, could the
business be performed with any ease or comfort to hon. mem-
bers when there were 400, 500, or as it sometimes happened,
600 present? He need go no further than to refer to what took
place that evening at five o'clock in the passage between the
door and the bar, where the crowd was so great that it was im-
possible to pass in or out without the greatest inconvenience.
The same inconvenience was felt on every night of a full at-
tendance, and he need only appeal to those who were present
on divisions of 500 or more members for the fact of the annoy-
ance suffered by the crowded state of the house. In the year
1794, George 111. directed that a plan of a new House of Lords,
as well as of a new House of Commons should be laid before
him, and such a plan was prepared by Sir John Soane, but cir-
cumstances had prevented any further proceeding in it. The
committee was unanimous in the recommendation of a new
house. The hon. member concluded by moving two resolu-
tions to the effect-Ist. That the present House of Commons
did not afford adequate accommodation, due regard being had
to the health and convenience of members, and the despatch of
public business, and that it was therefore necessary to erect a
new building. 2dly. That an humble address be presented to
his Majesty, praying that his Majesty would 'be graciously
pleased to direct a new House of Commons to be erected, Par-
liament being prepared to place at his Majesty's disposal a sum
of money sufficient to defray the expense of such building." It
these resolutions should be agreed to, he intended to move on
the first supply day that a sum not exceeding £35,000 be granted
to his Majesty for the purpose of building a new House of Com-
mons. For his own part he should have been satisfied with
£25,000, but named the larger sum in order to meet the wishes
of others ; it being understood, however, that the amount might
be increased or diminished as the house should think proper.
Colonel DAVIES rose to second the first resolution for the
purpose of obtaining an opportunity to state in what respect he
differed from his honourable friend. (Laughter.) No man
could be more fulifsensible than himself of the defects and in-
convenience of the present building. Their result was most un-
favourable upon the proceedings of the house. A stranger in-
troduced to that place for the first time, and witnessing the dis-
order which prevailed, and the undignified conduct of members,
would naturally ask, "Is this the celebrated House of 'Coin-
Are thera_ -theznanter spirits of the ag,c-?". The-appear-
ance of the house was frequently ratter that of a debating club
or a bear-garden than of a deliberative assembly. (" Oh, oh l")
The noise was excessive, and members, instead of attending to
the proceedings, • amused themselves with talking, or lying
stretched at full length asleep upon the benches. (Laughter.)
A great deal of this arose from the bad construction and want
of proper accommodation of the house. He could net agree
with his -honourable friend in his proposed. site for the new
House of Commons, and thought that an entire change of situ-
ation, to St. James'a Palace, for instance, would be advan-
tageous, and infinitely more convenient to all members who
were not of the legal profession. The honourable and gallant
member referred to the report, and quoted evidence in support
of this opinion. In conclusion he stated his intention to move
as an amendment on the second resolution, that the subject be
referred to a select committee to take into consideration the
various plans proposed, and the evidence contained in the re-

port.
Lord ALTlionp said that hon. members spoke of theunhealthi-
ness of the house, but he did not know that there was anything
actually in the house that rendered the sitting there unwhole-
some. (Mr. Warburton here reminded the noble lord that he
sat on the floor.) He certainly sat on the floor at present, but
he had sat for years where his hon. friend opposite now sat.
He apprehended that sitting to very late hours for successive
nights anywhere would be injurious to health. (Hear.) He
was ready to admit that on certain occasions, when there hap-
pened to be very full houses, inconvenience was experienced
from the size of the house, but for the average number of mem-
bers that attended during the session the accommodation was
amply sufficient. The noise and interruption that were occa-
sionally experienced in the present house had been complained
of; but he was not sure, that, if the size of the house should be
extended, when the house would not be so full, there would not
be greater noise. He confessed that he did not feel a strong
opinion on this subject. He thought that business could be
conducted perfectly to the satisfaction of the country in the pre-
sent building. (Hear.) Still, if it should be the opinion of the
majority of the house that an alteration should take place in
the present building, he would not throw any obstruction or
difficulty in the way of effecting such alteration. As his hon.
friend said he would take the sense of the house on the subject,
and as he (Lord Althorp) did not think that any inconvenience
existed to render it necessary to make an alteration in the pre-
sent building, he would vote against the resolution. (Hear.)
Mr. MILDNIAY was opposed to the proposition.
Sir G. PHILLIPS thought that the house was not sufficiently
large for the accommodation of members.
Sir R. PEEL would not consent to-make an alteration in the
present House of Commons on such a very imperfect repoit as
that which had been presented sn this subject. Of all the re-
ports of committees that he had 'ever read he Would say that
this was the most imperfect, and, with every respect for the
chairman, the most discreditable report he had seen. (A laugh.)
The report, in the first instance, expressed the opinion of the
committee—an opinion which the members of the house could
as well have formed without the assistance of a committee—
that the present house did not afford adequate accommodation
for the members ; but when the committee came to decide the
question as to the erection of a new IluUse of Co .

ok • .11144,.

Jui.v 5, 1833•

22 plans had been laid before them, they were not able to form
a decisive opinion as to any one of them. It was ludicrous to
hear all the faults of the House of Commons laid to the account
or the building. There was, it appeared, often great talking,
sometimes a considerable buz, and not unfrequently, Julio!!
coughing ; but they were the master spirits of the age,_ and, ot
course, all those things were the fault of the present House ot
Commons. (A laugh.) There was no doubt that the present
house was not adequate to the accommodation of 658 members,
but the real question was whether it was not amply sufiient
for the accommodation of, the average number of membefrsc that
attended in four out of the five nights in the week. If a larger
house were built, it would not be as well calculated for the or-
dinary discharge of business, and besides, the hearing in a
larger building might not be as good.
Mr. Hone replied, and the house divided, when the numbers
were—

70
--• • • •
•• •• •• •• •• 154
Majority against the motion .. 84 h
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and t e
house adjourned at a quarter Fast 2 o'clock.