The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-26 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

sia to get possession of Constantinople, and alarming rumours
were in circulation, to the effect that Constantinople was by
this time, or soon would be, in the possession of the Russians.
He should be glad to hear from ministers what steps they had
taken to prevent the occurrence of an event so inconsistent
with the interests of Europe and the honour of this country.
(Oh, oh !)
Lord ALTHORP replied that he did not think it would be pro-
per to state what steps Government had taken.

DISTRESS OF THE COUNTRY.-TIIE CURRENCY.

Lord ALTHORI' said that he thought the motion of the hon.
member for Whitehaven had better be brought forward in a sub-
itantative shape than as an amendment on the order of the day.
He was disposed to treat the hon. gentleman's proposition with
every respect, and was quite ready to give way to him.
Mr. M. ATTWOOD commenced by stating that ever since he
had enjoyed the honour of a seat in Parliament, he had tlsought
it his duty, on every practicable occasion, to call the attention
of the house to the condition of the productive middle and lower
classes, and to ask for inquiry as to how far they had been or
were likely to be affected by the monetary system established at
the termination of the war. He knew not if he could recom-
mend that inquiry by arguments other than had been before
urged by himself and others, but the arguments and statements
formerly adduced now carried with them the testimony of time
and experience, and came upon us confirmed by continued suf-
fering and calamity, and by a growing conviction of a mistaken
policy having been adopted. In previous houses, there existed
among the members a principle of surrendering their votes to the
party to which they belonged, and of giving up their judgments to
a considerable extent to the great political leaders of the day.
This principle did not prevail at present. Members now looked
less to the ties of party than to their responsibility to their con-
stituents. To complain of the calamities of the people was at all
times disagreeable, and ministers, of whatever party, heard such
complaints with reluctance. There was no stage of distress, how-
user great, within the last twenty years, which had not been at
first denied. The hon. member for Essex was never wanting
on such occasions to say that, although not a merchant, he had
made inquiries among merchants, and could say that there ex-
isted a great deal of prosperity in the country, and if we waited
a little longer we should see more. " Wait,' the hon. member
would say, "till the Bank and East India questions shall have
been settled, and you will see the result in increased prosperity."
But that was- not all; ministers produced columns of figures
from the excise,. customs, and exchequer, showing the flourish-
ing state of our imports and exports, and proving arithmetically
that not only was it impossible that there could be any distress,
but that the fact was we must be in a state of considerable pros-
perity. (Hear, hear, and a laugh.) The noble Chancellor of
the Exchequer introduced his budget on the ground that it
might possibly prevent this motion. He asked the house. whe-
ther they saw any grounds in the financial statement of the noble
lord for withdrawing the present motion, at a time when it ap-
p_eared that taxes were no longer paid out of profits but capital?
The noble lord also desired that the motion of the hon. member
for London (Sir J. Key) on the assessed taxes should be post-
poned till after the budget, doubtless in the hope that the shop-
keepers of the metropolis should be satisfied with his proposition
of Friday nir,eht. '1 he shopkeepers represented that, without
bankruptcy, they were unable to pay the taxes in question.—
The noble lord met this by the statement, that if those taxes
were repealed the condition of the country would be but little
different from their own. That answer might satisfy the coun-
try or not : but he asked if that were the condition of things af-
ter eighteen years of peace, which ought to have recruited our
resources, whether it was not necessary for the representatives
of the people to inquire into the cause of the calamity. The
noble lord showed them a revenue of £50,000,000, but declared
that the safety of the state, and the preservation of national.
credit, prevented further reductions than he had of ; after
which he retained only an insignificant surplus of £500,000.
, The people were now paying £50,000,000 of taxes with diffi-
culty, with decreasing capital, with increasing want and crime ;
but the time was not remote when, without difficulty or com-
plaint, without decreasing, but with increasing capital, with de-
creasing pauperism—(the noble lord seemed to doubt this, he
could refer him to the statement of a right rev. prelate in corro-
boration of the assertion)--he repeated, with decreasing pau-
perism the people paid £78,000,000 of taxes. He referred to
the period at the close of the late war—a war which ended in
the completion of every object for the accomplishment of which
it had been undertaken, and not in consequence of the poverty
of the country. If he showed to the house that the country af-
ter eighteen years of repose broke down under the payment of
£50,000,000 of taxes, having previously paid £78,000,000 with-
out inconvenience, did he not make out grounds for inquiring
into the causes of a state of things so anomalous ? (Hear.)
How stood the numbers of the people at the two periods ? He
would put the year's population returns with the corresponding
year's financial returns. We paid, in 1815, £78,240,000 in taxes,
exclusive of the expense of collection • in 1814 the amount was
£77,000,000; and in 1813, £73,000,000. Put by the side of this
amount of taxation, the population in 1815 it was 18,700,000.
What was the amount of the population of 1831 ? 24,000,000.
Thus it appeared that the lesser number paid with ease
£78,000,000 of taxes, and that the greater number could not
pay, without distress, £50,000,000. He should be content, per-
haps, to rest his motion on this statement alone. He knew that,
according to the school of certain political philosophers, increase
of population was in itself a proof of increasing means of sub-
sistence,—that it constituted prosperity. He should not enter
into any question of abstract philosophy. it had been the mis-
fortune of our day that we had been induced to apply abstract
doctrines too much to practical affairs (hear, hear), the well-
being of which was made to depend on the question whether the
philosophers were right or. wrong. The honourable member
here entered into a statement of the amount of financial reduc-
tions at various periods since the peace, and said, that whenever
a finance minister had proposed a reduction of taxation, it was
always stated that the I.lxehequer would not be a loser to the
full amount of the remission, ih consequence of the increased.
stimulus given to consumption. That calculation, he admitted,
was founded on. a good principle. The hon. gentleman then
went into a statement of the reduction of taxes made in the last
eighteen years, and of the increase of the powers of consump-
tion on the part of the. population during that period, as com-
Tared with the increase of the population itself. His conclusion
from them was, that though the population hadduring that time
increased- nearly one-fourth, its power of consuming the neces-
saries and.comforts of life had only increased about. one-tenth.
They had evidence taken before a committee of that house in
1818 on the poor-laws, as to the distress which prevailed in the
agricultural districts, but nothing was then done; and it hap-
pened that in 1830, even in England, they had agricultural dis-
turbances. Special commissions were sent to put them down,
5,000 Englishmen were taken up as prisoners, 1,800 of whom
were tried, and of those 700 were punished in various ways.—
The hon. gentleman here referred to the evidence given before
that. committee in 1828, to show the state of distress into which
the agricultural population of England had been thrown in con-
sequence, as he contended, of the restriction of the currency in
18t9. To the want of employment, he repeated, the disturbances
in Ireland were to be attributed. They were intimately con-
nected with the operation of the. monetary system. He could
not leave the question of. the distress which overwhelmed the
agricultural labouring population of England without pressing
on the attention of the house the deep importance of that sub-;
ject, and conjuring them to be careful, lest, in sacrificing that
population, they sacrificed the bulwark of the country. To what
excesses had distress driven them ! How greatly had their cha-
racters been altered ! They had been seen to destroy the pro•
perty of their employers—those labourers whose interests used
formerly to be ideuttliedwith that of their masters. He- would
now advert to the state of another interest, the second in ins-
portauce—he meant the shipping interest. In 1832 the ship-
owners at the different sea-ports drew up a memorial, in which
they described the dreadful condition to which they were re-
duced. In that memorial they pointed out the detrimental ef-
fects of the diminution of capital. They fondly hoped that the
attention of the reformed Parliament would be fixed open their,
complaints, and that when that house met some steps would be
taken to improve their suffering condition. The representatives
of the people were intrusted with the office of relieving the dis-
tresses.of the people; they would be judged of by the decision
to which they came on the present question, and by it
.would,
they secure or forfeit the confidence of the country. The com-
mercial property of England was not now what it was in for-
mer days ; its interests were not equally well prodded for,
and it was undergoing, a constant and steady depreciation.—
Another proof of the baneful effects of the present monetary
system, and that was the increase in the number of criminal
committals. That increase would be found to have kept pace
with the progress of that system, and the returns which in .1814
were confined to hundreds, amounted, after a progressive in•
crease, to twenties of thousands in 1832. Were these, facts
which ought to be contemplated- with apathy ? It was upon
these grounds, then, he submitted to the house his proposition
for inquiry. He believed, firmly believed, that our monetary
system was inseparably connected with the extreme and general
uistress he had Instanced, connected with it in all its branches.
He believed this, because he found that every interest in the
country had experienced an improvement upon a relaxation of
the system, and- a corresponding depression whenever it was
called into full vigour, and that distress had been steadily at-
taining its present extremity ever since the principles which
were adopted in 1819 had been called into full operation by.
subsequent measures. He hoped that the right hon. member
for Tatoworth would lend his powerful aid to effect the objer:t
which he bad in view, and concluded with moving "that-a select
committee be appointed to inquire into the state of general dis-

tress and embarrassment which presses upon the various orders
of the people, and how far the same has been occasioned by the
operation of the present monetary system; and to consider the
effect produced by that system on the agriculture, manufac-
tures, and commerce of the united kingdom, and on the condi-
tion of the industrious and productive classes." (Cheers.)
Lord ALT HOR P said that he did not differ from the hon. mem-
ber as to the importance of the question which he had broug.ht,
under the consideration of the house, nor as to its being desir-
able that it should be brought under their consideration,—that
the lion. member should call upon the house to decide whether
they were prepared to stand by the present system, (loud
cheers,) on which all the contracts of the country depended, or
whether, on the other hand, they were prepared to adopt a
course of confiscation and robbery. (Cheers.) He thought the
hon. member, entertaining the opinions whiCh he did, was per-
fectly right in bringing the question forward; and he (Lord
Althorp)- was not sorry at least that he had given a reformed
House of Commons an opportunity of coming to a decision
upon it. The hon. member evidently contemplated a deprecia-
tion of the currency,--indeed, no part of his argument would
have any common sense in it if that were not the object which
I he had in view ; but he had not stated how it was to be effected.
At various periods different propositions hail been brought for-
ward, all ultimately having this object in view; but the hon.
member's proposition differed from every one of them in this
respect—that it might be adopted, he said, quite -consistently
with the maintenance of the public faith. (Hear, hear, hear.)
He could not, in the present situation of the country, conceive
any calamity greater than agreeing • to the motion of the hon.
member, It was most desirable that the house should come to
a decision, upon this occasion, as to the expediency of altering
the standard of value, and therefore he intended to move, as au
amendment, the following resolution :—" That it is the opinion
of this house that any alteration in the monetary system of this
country, which would have the effect of lowering the standard
of value, is highly inexpedient." (Cheers.) The fate of that
amendment would decide the question whether the house were
determined to maintain the present standard of value. He
wished members to have an opportunity of giving their votes
upon that question clearly and distinctly. He had framed his
amendment in that shape in order to meet the disinclination
which many members felt to vote against a committee to in-
quire into the distresses of the people. It was absolutelyne-
cessary.for him, before he proceeded to consider the propriety
of appointing such a committee, as he valued his own character,
as he valued the preservation of public faith and the prosperity
of the country, to call upon the house to decide, "aye" or "no,"
upon the question. The hon. member had, throughout the
whole of his speech, announced that his object was to effect an
alteration in the value of money, and believing, as he (Lord
Althorp) did, that such a proceeding would be ruinous to the
country, he would offer it every possible opposition. Ho con-
cluded with moving his amendment. (Cheers.)
Mr. GROTE rose to second the amendment, and said that, in-
dependently of the proposed alteration with respect to the cur-
rency, no practical advantage could result from the inquiry
which the hon. member proposed should take place into the
state of the country. If he might venture to speak lightly on so
grave a question, he would say that a committee which could
presume to pronounce au opinion on a. question of such magni-
tude upon such evidence as would be brought before them, would
resemble the rash travellers, who, after running hastily through
the 'United States of America, gossipping.with persons in stage-
coaches, and dining at a table d'hote, and cross-examining the
waiters and chambermaids, came home, wrote a book, and dog-
, inatized with all the authority of high witnesses upon the Ame-
rican national character. (Hear.) An, inquiry into the state
. of the country was only the stalking-horse upon this occasion—
the real object was to effect a change in the standard of value.
If any particular plan were broached for enabling the currency
to more effectively. perform all the legitimate functions of a cur-
rency, he would give it his best consideration; but he earnestly
hoped that no legislature would be found. wicked enough to
abuse its control over the currency of the state, and to attempt
. to force prices either higher or lower than they would otherwise
be by an abuse of its legislative power. (Hear.)
Mr. COBBETT said that before he proceeded to make one or
two observations on the motion substantively before them, he
thought it as well to bestow a passing notice on the doctrine of
the great sage who had just addressed the house, and of whom
lie (Air. Cobbett) had the lucky honour of being a constituent.
According to that doctrine, itmattered little whether they legis-
lated or not in reference to the currency; for, said the hon.
representative of' the wisdom of the city of London, prices are
not atall affected by. the state of the currency, being_ wholly
a question of supply and demand." How did the hon. gentle-
man persuade himself that men had been asleep all this time
since the peace ? Every person recollected that prices were
high on the passing of the celebrated bill of the celebrated ba-
ronet beside him; and every person also knew—and, if he did
not, ought to know—that they fell so rapidly and tremendously
on the passing of that measure, that the right hon. baronet (Sir
It. I'eei) himself got frightened, and out came the small note
bill of 1822. Immediately prices rose, and all things went on
gallantly till the mad doings of 1825 and 1826 led to another
suppression of the £1 notes, with another consequent and in-
evitable fall of prices, On the passing of the small note sup-
pression bill of 1826, he petitioned that house, telling it that
while he rejoiced that the functions of coining were resumed
by the monarch, yet that as sure as fire burned, it' they passed
that bill without concomitant measures which he recommended,
ruin and universal misery would be the consequences. They
passed the bill without the concomitant remedies, and ruin and
misery are stalking theland. And, when the hon. member for
Whitehaven called upon them to stop this ruin and misery by
retracing the steps which engendered it, they were told by the
member for London that to do so would be a robbery, and act-
ing like the unjust steward in the Gospel. They were told as a
reason for refusing the present inquiry, that the comforts and
happiness of the people had increased because the consumption
of the comforts and necessaries of' life had increased. But how
was the conclusion arrived at? The noble Chancellor of the
ExChequer founded it on the fact that the taxes on those.articles
of consumption had increased—that is, the revenue derived
from those taxes. This was a dangerous fallacy, and therefore
ought to be exposed. If the noble.lord had inferred that be-
cause the taxes on sugar, coffee, &c. &c. were more productive
now than formerly, that therefore the people who paid those
taxes were happier and better off than hitherto, it followed that
the more taxed a treople was the better and the.happier.—(" No,
no," and hear.) the hon. member for Whitehaven said." Do
justice to the people of England; cut down the expenditure, or
raise up the money ;" and he was perfectly right.—(Hear.)
He approved of going into • the committee moved for. by the
hon. member, for Whitehaven, not.becaase he agreed withhim
about the remedy, but thiuking that inquiry, was.quite proper.
It was admitted by all that there had been a robbery; somebody
must have committed it. It wait; admitted that many persons
had been ruined, who was answerable for.it ? All said that the
mischief had been done, that a wrong had been inflicted ; the
noble lord said,it had been by error; so said he (Mr. Cobbett)
'that it was by error, but whocominitted,the error? Or was. it
to be said that the responsibility of public officers went no fur-
ther than getting their salaries r
Mr. Ricitaittis said that the plan recommended by,the hon.
member for Oldham would lead to national plunder. The noble
lord had taken a very narrow view of the question. The bill,
which was called by, the name of -a, right hon. baronet, ought to
be called, in justice to him, Lord Liverpool's, bill ; it had been
intrusted to the right hon. baronet to support because the
Chancellor of, the Exchequer at the time was a pour miserable
speaker; but at that day the right hon. baronet had not paid
that attention to the subject of money he had, no doubt, done
since. (A laugh.) He thought that the hon. member for
Whitehaven had laid a substantial groundlor,inquiry, and the
house would not do justice to itself, to the people, and to the
sovereign, if it did not grant a full and efficient inquiry.
Mr. ForisTea could say, from abundant opportunity, of ascer-
taining the opinions of the operative classes, that they were
not in accordance with the views of the honourable member for
Whitehaven. (Hear.) They knew little of the refinements
of this question, but experience enables them to assert that the
rise of prices operated in a greater degree upon commodities
than- upon labour, and that thereby the labouring classes
suffered. (Hear.) Prom all the information he could obtain
as a country banker, he could say that the present amount
of the currency was perfectly adequate to all 'legitimate purposes.
(Hear.) Though lie thought it his duty to vote against the
motion of the hon. gentleman, yet iflie or any other member
brought forward a motion simpiy confine& to an inquiry into
the adequacy of our present currency; to that motion ha for
one would readily agree.
Mr. l'. Tuomsos: said it was impossible for-the house to consider-
that it had any other question before it than this—to decide whether it
would confirm or depart from the standard of value as at present by
law established. That was the question that now came plainly and
nakedly befOre the house ; 'arid he anticipated, from what had passed
in the course of the discnsston, that an end would he at last put to the
agitation of a subject which he "entirely concurred with the hon. mem-
ber for Walsall in thinking even now paralyzed in some material degree
the trade and commercial confidence of the country, and which, if al-
lowed to continue undetermined, was likely to be attended with still
more disastrous consequences. He objected to the propositions of the
hon. member, because he saw in them the complete derangement of
the whole commercial and even social system of the country. (near.)
lle believed that nothing but ruin and bankruptcy could -follow their
adoption, and the loss of that high name for honour and integrity. which.
they at present possessed among thitriatiotia.of Europe. (Hear, hear.)
If they could no longer bear the public burdens, or pay that which was
doe to the public creditor, he should say, "compound w ith biro,exhibit
the state of your affairs, say that you are notable to pay the £28,000;000
which he at present receives ; but do not adopt that' whiCh was only..a
clumsy means of arriving at the. same end,—which carried with it a