The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-07-05 00:00:00

Lord ALTHORP said that die_ honourable gentleman had

given notice of his motion for a day upon which, according to
the rules of the house, the orders took precedence; and
the only difficulty he (Lord Althorp) felt was, as to how
far he could consent to an interference with those rules.
He must agree with the hon. gentleman (and he was satisfied that
there was no individual who would not also concur in the opi-
nion) that the employment of spies for the purpose of prying
into private life, or, in other words, to go through the system
practised abroad, which was both vexatious and abominable,
was adopting that to which no British Parliament would give
its support. (Hear.) That, however, was not now the ques-
tion; but the real question was, whether it was not only right,
but also the duty
.of the police, to ascertain what took place at
public meetings, into which persons were either admitted by
paying or which might be gratuitously open to the public. With
respect to the pollee force or the metropolis, he could say that
when they were first formed the right hon. baronet, the author
-of their establishment, gave positive instructions that they should
never be employed as spies, and when his (Lord Althorp's)
noble friend succeeded the right hon. baronet, he had given the
same instructions—instructions from which he was satisfied the
hon. gentlemen at the head of the police department would not
deviate. But the meetings at which the police had been sent to
attend were meetings not of a private nature, but to which every
person who chose to go was admitted, and at which language of
a most inflammatory character had been used. Now, he (Lord
Althorp) did maintain that the government would not have done
their duty if they had not taken means for ascertaining the pro-
ceedings of meetings of this description. It wag only at. such
meetings that the police had attended; he admitted that they
had done so in plain clothes, because it must not be denied that,
with the unpopularity which in some degree affected them, they
could not have obtained admission otherwise. It was alleged in
the petition which had been presented that the policeman named
therein had made use at some of the meetings of inflammatory
language, encouraging the parties present to violence. If this
policeman had done so, he had certainly been practising that
most odious qualification of a spy, namely, exciting those very
disorders which he must afterwards be called upon to repress,
and such conduct on his part was directly contrary to theinstruc-
tions which he had received. With regard to the appointment
of a committee, he did not feel any great objection, inasmuch as
it might tend to ascertain what had been the conduct of the
policeman Pophay,'and to get a fair and clear account of what
had taken place; but he was anxious to take this opportunity of
explaining what had been the conduct of the government, and
to assure the house that they had in no instance allowed the
police to interfere with private societies, but merely to attend
public meetings open to any individual. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. TENN YSON concurred in the propriety of individuals be-
ing sent to public meetings to note the proceedings for the
information of the government, but the charge against this
individual was, that he had enrolled himself a member of a
certain class of the National political Union, in that union
had not only used exciting language, but had subscribed for a
depot of arms, and a room for the purpose, of military exercise,
and was, during the whole time,
. receiving his pay as a police-
man. He rejoiced that the noble lord had consented to the
appointment of a committee to enquire into the matter. He
had been intrusted with a petition signed by upwards of 500
of his constituents, expressing the deepest anxiety upon the
subject, and the greatest alarm for their personal safety, and
praying that the police might be carefully watched.
BANK CHARTER.
The order of the day was then rerfd for the house resolving
itself into committee on the Bank Charter Acts, and the
Speaker having left the chair,
Lord ALTHORP said, that before he moved the second reso-
lution he begged to state to the house an alteration he proposed
to make in his plan. He proposed that any person presenting
a £5 country note for payment at the country bankers' would
have the right of demanding in exchange five sovereigns.
This alteration would not, he thought, make any differ-
ence in the principle of his plan. There was another point
he wished to state to the house ; he was desirous of post-
poning the discussicu on the 6th and Bth resolutions—
those relating to joint stock companies—in order that the
committee might dispose of the other resolutions as soon as
possible, and he
.might then be enabled to found a bill for the
renewal of the bank charter on the report. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. PEEL said that if he rightly understood the purport of
the noble lord's alteration, it meant that for every £5 note pre-
sented-zit the countrr bunks, Abe- - it t..ight de-
mend payment in gold. \ Of course, then, if any one presented
one hundred £5 notes, he might receive gold for teem all ?
(Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP replied in the negative.
Sir li. PEEL—What not if he present them separately?
Lord ALT rioar.--No. not at the same time, as that would
have a serious effect upon the bank. He would add, that if it
should appear that the alteration he now proposed would have
the effect the right hon. baronet anticipated, it would defeat his
original intention, and under those circumstances he would not
pet severe in it. (A laugh.) The alteration, however, was not,
Hr his own opinion, calculated to do so.
Sir J. Witovrusi.EY said that he would not now discuss the
important point whether Bank of England notes should be made
a legal tender, though he would not deny that such a measure
was called for by the country bankers. He did not, however,
anticipate any benefit from it. He thought it would tend, in the
opinion of the. public, to depreciate those notes, when it was
known that they would not, be paid in gold in the country as
hitherto.
Sir G. PHILIPS said that the proposition for making the,Bank
of England note a legal tender was uncalled for; and he con-
fessed it was with feelings of astonishment, he might almost say
surprise, that he first heard of it. One of the consequences would
be, that people in the country, not being able to get their notes
converted into cash, would have to send them up to London, and
thus a pressure wOuld be created on the Bank of England. The
more he reflected on the subject the more danger he discovered.
After all the sufferings which had been endured by the people
from the successive tampering-s with the con ency of the country,
were they now about to tamper with it anew by attempting to
make the Bank-note a legal tender? It appeared to him to be
almost tantamount to another act of restriction.
Mr. BA RING said, that as there existed the greatest difference
in opinion with regard to the question then under consideration,
it therefore behoved them to proceed with caution and delibera-
tion in forming any decisiOn. For his part he should support
the original resolution, because be did not think a paper circu-
lation in this country was safe unless the Bank of England
notes were made a legal tender. There was something, to
he sure, very alarming in the term "legal tender," as applied
to Bank-notes, but what was the real nature of the case? The
proposition only caused one more step to intervene before the
conversion of the note into specie. It was just the same as a
banker in Lombard-street giving Bank of England notes
instead of gold. He gives a delegation on the Bank in the
nature of an order, and in what did that differ from a payment
in specie? Only in this,—that it interposed one intermediate stage
between the -presentation and the gold 'payment. The practice
was purely one of convenience, and one which would prevent
the recurrence of those frights and panics which so much
disturbed the commercial world. It had been contended that
our system of currency was now sufficiently stable, and it was
asked why alter it? He would answer by another question—
was it perfectly secure in 1825? It might do very well in fair
weather, but as soon as gales arose its insecurity became ap-
parent; and he would add, that if ever that unfortunate period
arose when the credit of the Bank of England should be
shaken, no credit would exist throughout the country. It would
be vain boasting to pretend that any engagements could be

fUlfilled if the Bank was prevented from fulfilling,. its engage-
ments. No business could be carried- on throughout :the
country, for all credit must fail with that of the Bank.
Sir it PEEL said, that the argument which had always
been maintained in that house was, that the issue of £1 notes
stimulated undue speculation, and had the effect of encourag-
ing the withdrawal of coin from the country. It was very true
that when a crisis arose under those circumstances there would
be a demand for the deposits placed in the hands of country
bankers, because confidence in the paper circulation was
weakened; but his hon. friend, the member for Essex, was in
no respect justified in contending that the paper currency of
1825 was the same as the paper currency of the present mo-
ment, because now we had by the prohibition of £1 and £2
notes secured an equal distriVutiOn of paper and coin, and had
thus guarded against the risk of a commercial panic. His
hon. friend was right in saying that parliament ought to do
everything in their power to ensure the stability-of the Bank of
England, because everything which tended to increase the pub-
lic confidence in that establishment augmented and strength-

"cued the resources of the country; biit the question was,—
could an act of parliament give confidence? Could legislation
compel people to think that paper was as good as gold? (Hear,
hear.) His hon. friend had said that a banker in London would
not give cash for a check of large amount, but an order on
the Bank of England, and he remarked that nobody hesitated
to receive the paper instead of the gold in this case. How
happened that? Why had people confidence in the paper?—
Because there was no act of Parliament to declare it a legal
tender. (Hear, hear.) Burke examplitied this principle when
he said, " Your notes are current on the Royal Exchange be-
cause they are not in Westminster-hall."
Mr. GROTE confessed that up to a short time ago the noble
lord's plan had his full concurrence; and that it was only on
subsequent inquiry he had been induced to alter his firstim-
pression, and come to the conclusion that it would effect more
harm than good. He admitted that to a considerable extent
the noble lord's proposition would operate beneficially in times
of commeicial panic, assuming that the panic was not carried
to the extent of distrusting the Bank of England circulation;
but at the same time he must say, that the plan did not, on re-
consideration, appear to him to give proper security for a full
and adequate retail -*circulation of coin. (Hear, hear.) On
that ground he was induced to withhold his assent from the
propose& measure. He did not mean to deny that country
bankers would be induced, by motives of compethion, to supply
gold to their customers; but this supply of coin would be
limited to their immediate localities, and would not spread, as it
ought to do, over the whole of England, in the poorer districts
as well as the rich. (Hear, hear.) This would cause a premium
to be asked for payments in gold. An hon. member had alluded
to the practice of tankers-in the north charging one-eighth per
cent. for payments in gold previous to the establishment of the
branch banks. Such a practice would bear with great hardship
on the poorer districts, already labouring under sufficient dis-
advantages.. This was one of the reasons which had induced
him to alter his opinion with respect to the noble lord's plan.
Lord SANDON observed, that the object of government ap-
peared to be to relieve country-bankers from the necessity of
p_rocuring gold in the event of a panic, by making Bank of
1. tigland paper a legal tender in the counties above a certain
amount (£5.) How would the system satisfy the holders of.
£5 country notes, and the depositors, who were the two classes
of the country-bankers' customers? The holders of £5 note
could still demand gold,- and the depositors might draw checls
for small amounts, in order to get gold. Such being the care,
the country bankers would naturally send to London notfor
Bank of England notes, which might not -be accepted, butfor
the article (gold) which he was quite sure would answe• his
purpose in the event of a panic. Thus it appeared tha; the
government plan was, to say the least of it, inefficient : a suffi-
cient. ground to justify him in opposing the resolution.
Mr.EWA Rr would vote against the government propoiition
on three grounds—first, because he had not heard its necessity
demonstrated; secondly, because it increased the monopdy of
the Bank; and lastly, because it tended in some degree ..0 a
depreciation of the currency.
Mr. P. SCROPE believing it to be impossible to convert into
gold one-hundredth part of the liabilities of the country, con-
sidered it necessary to throw some obstacles in the way of a
demand for gold; at the same time the public would have
adequate security in Bank of England paper.
Sir H. WILLOUG lIBY said thatif a pew arose from a distrust
of paper money, it could not be cured by a tender of paper
money, and au offer of paper would increase rather than diminish
the alarm.

Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and in the midst of
the confusion occasioned by clearing the gallery,
Lord ALTHORP stated, in reply to three questions put to him
by Mr. Herries, that he thought he had already answered the
questions satisfactorily, at the desire of other hon. members.
However, as it Would appear that he had not made himself per-
fectly intelligible to the house, he was ready to repeat what he
had stated first; in answer to the hon. member for Whitehaven,
as to the duration of the arrangement. The hon. member had
asked him whether it was to be considered as permanent or
otherwise? He had stated, in answer to this, that the hon.
gentleman must be aware that this was a regulation, not for the
benefit of the Bank, but for the benefit of the public. He added
that as it was proposed to insert in the act of Parliament that it
*as intended to renew the Bank charter for a period of twenty-
one year, it followed that the regulation could not, under that
act, exist beyond the term fixed for the maintenance of the
charter. With respect to the posSibility of the arrangement
being altered in the mean time, he was of opinion, that if it
should be found detrimental to the public interest, it would be
competent to Parliament to alter it. He had been asked, in
the next place, whether he intended to introduce a 'provision
into the bill for the purpose of compelling the Bank to keep up
a certain number of branch establishments to pay in gold in the
country? He did notbelieve it possible for him, or any other
man, to state with precision in an act of Parliament how many
branch establishments the Bank ought to support, and there-
fore he declined interfering in the matter. With respect to the
third question, he did not think the alteration he had made in
the resolution, which was intended, not to satisfy any doubt of
his own as to a possible deficiency of coin iu circulation under
the resolution as it before stood, but to satisfy the apprehensions
entertained by others on that subject, he did not think that the
change would produce any material effect. Five pound notes
were payable in gold, but for all amounts above five pounds
Bank of England paper would be a legal tender. If, as had
been suggested, a bank issued five-guinea notes, a Bank of
England note would certainly be a legal tender fur part of that
amount.

The committee then divided—
For the resolution 214
Against it - 156
Majority --58
In reply to some observations from Mr. Herries and Mr.
Baring,
Lord A LTHORP said he thou_ght that the amount of debt
which would remain due to th B e ank after the repayment of
25 per cent. which Government proposed to make upon it would
afford ample security to the public. It was, no doubt, most de-
sirable that an adequate security should remain for the public,
in the shape of debt due by the Government to the Bank, but
he was of opinion that after reducing that debt to the extent of
£3,500,000, a security. as ample as was necessary would be still
provided for the public.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said, that with respect to the re-
reduction of the capital of the Bank, which formed part of the
!,eneral arrangement proposed to the Bank by Government,
the' Bank was satisfied that the amount of capital which would
remain, after the proposed payment of £3,500,000, would be
quite sufficient for the discharge of all the functions which it
discharged, or which it might be called upon to discharge, in
nonsequence of the adoption of that new arrangement., It was
first proposed by the noble lord to reduce the capital of the
Bank one-half; but to that proposal the Bank directors very
properly felt strong objections, and the statement of those ob-
jections on their part had, he thought, fully justified the noble
lord in departing so far from his original proposition as to limit
the reduction to £3,500,000. He was quite satisfied that the
' amount of capital which would remain would be amply ade-
quate for all the purposes for which it would be required, and
that it would be ample security for the maintenance of the
public confidence in the Bank.
Mr. HustE said that the bargain appeared to be the most ex-
traordinary one ever made. Never was a minister so much im-
posed upon. The Bank got their monopoly for nothing. The
noble lord was the last man from whom he should have expected
such a bargain.
Alderman THOMPSON defended the bargain made with the
Bank. (A laugh.) If gentlemen would only consider what
had been the profits of the Bank during the last ten years, they
would not think the bargain improvident. Their capital of
"£19,000,000 returned 6 per cent., consequently, there was not
now that claim upon the Bank for concessions that there had
been. In 1801 the Bank was not compelled to pay their notes
in specie.
After a short desultory conversation, in which Sir B. Peel, Mr.
Hume, Mr. Clay, and Lord Althorp, took part, the third reso-
lution was agreed to, and the house having resumed,
The Chairman reported progress, and obtained leave to sit
again on Wednesday next,
Mr. It. GRANT brought up the report on the Jewish Civil
Disabilities which, with the amendments, was agreed to,
and the bill ordered to be read a third time on Wednesday
se'nnight.
Mr. F. BARING obtained leave to bring in a bill for the more
easy and effectual audit and passing of sheriffs' accounts, and
to abolish certain offices in the Court of Exchequer. The
hill was subsequently brOught in, read a first time, and or-
dered to be read- a second time on the 10th of July.
The BPEVittr: haYingnatted upon Mr. Cobtren to-move, pur;*
suant to notice, for a select committee to inquire into the mat-
ter of the petition complaining of the conduct of the metropo-
litan 'police,
Lord ALTHOR,P said that, in the absence of the hon. member
for Oldham, he hoped that as he (Lord Althorp) had that even-
ing undertaken to stand in the hon. member's place (a laugh),
the house would permit him to move for the select committee,
pursuant to the motion of the hon. member for Oldham.
The motion was agreed to, and the select committee ap-
pointed.
Sir A. AdivEw brought in a bill to explain and amend the
laws relating to the observance of the Lord's-day in Scotland,
which was read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
time on Tuesday fortnight.
On the motion of Mr. Bernal, the writ of election for the
borough of Hertford was ordered to be further suspended until
Tuesday-, the 16th of July.
The other orders of tlie day were then disposed of, and the
house adjourned at half-past two o'clock.