The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-19 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD

the amount of Men to be employed, which involved the general
question of reduction, be would not trouble it bit, calling for a
uivision upon any of those resolutions.
The vote was,thet4,o.traiht agreed
• The next vote. was-for 1.:2.1,77.5 to defray the salaries of offi-
cers and contingent expenses of the Navy Pay-office.
Mr. 1-111 ME observed, that he saw from this estimate, That the
assistant to the Trelptiver of the. Nays had- a- salary of
l aear. He wished to kilow what was .the retiring pension. al:.
lowedicalaplaiti kfuski.iton, wto.had_kiiinerly flit 6hat~tii!ees
Sir J. GRAHAM could inform the hon. gentleman that Capt.
.Huskis3ort.reccived,no pension whatever.
linvE wished to kno‘ir why we stilt:incurred the expense'
which appeared in the present estimates to amount to £2,000,
-of sending money to the ports. That was an utter waste: or-the'
public money. • -

17-.l"%tomsoN said, that the subject to which the hon.
memkr. had adverted had not eseaped the attention of the go-
vernment, but it was found, that the present arrangement was
a much more economical one than the one proposed. The
commission which it was proposed to charge upon the payments,
made to the navy at the outpurts would amount to much more
than the expense charged in the present estimate.
Mr. llurnra wished to know how shipi were paid off on their
arrival at the out-ports, whether,in gold or notes ?
Mr. P. TuomsoN said, that a quantity of notes and silver
was sent down for the purpose, and they were paid as conve
nience served in both.

The next vote was for the sum of £22,109 for defraying the
salaries of officers and contingent expenses of the several scien-
tific departments of the navy.
Mr. HUME would take that occasion to.advert to the. School
of Naval Architecture. He could not help thinking that the
best plan would be to form a small board of those men who had
been for so many years employed practically in ship-building;
for the purpose of making observations upon the building ot,
ships-.- He thought it exceedingrylllTulgiTdthat The manager
ment of the experiments and alterations in the construction of
the ships of the royal navy should be committed merely to the
discretion of one individual. The public ought to be made acr
quainted with the principles onwhich the chaps were founded,
and likewise with theTrobable benefits to be derived fronithem.
Mr. HUNIE inquited-whether Captain Symonds's plans, which
had been tried on theAernon, had succeeded or not. He had
heard they were a complete failure. If, however, that were not
the case, and the Vernon was found to. answer every requisite
purpose, he should wish all the ships of the navy to be built on
the same principles as those on which that vessel had been con-
structed.

Sir J. GRAHAM replied, that as far as could be learned from
the report_ traustuitted from the officers. appoinvd, to try expe.
riments with the Vernon, nothin,, could be superior to the, sail.
ing of that vessel. Other vesset3 were in consequence being
l is on the same principles.
Captain DUNDAS confirmed the statement of the right. hon.,
baronet (Sir J. Graham) respecting the, success of the plans
tried on the Vernon. He happened to know the. captain of
that ship, and from what be. had told him, had no doubt of her
superiority.
The vote was then agreed to.
On the question that £114,970 be voted for the. expenses of
the naval eStablishinepts at home, a, long and desultory conver-
sation arose Kespectina the yachts which are, at present main-
tained.

Iu answer to a question' from Mr. I/tired, •
Sir. J. GRAHAM said, thatthe mtraber of yachts maintained
at the Public expense used fqgmerly to be five ; they were now
reduced to, four, one of which was stationed at Pembroke, ano-
ther at Woolwich, and the other two were kept afloat, for the,
use of his Majesty.
Mr. Husie said he was willing to , leave: the last. two, yachts,
untouched, but why, he wished-to know, should the other two be.
maintained? We—e`r trey serviceable ui case of—their services,
being required ?
Sir J, GRAhAM said, that ever since the time or William 111.
five yachts had been maintained for the service of the riiings of
England. He had already stated, that at the present moment
two only were so appropriated: the other two were at the die-
pedal of the Admiralty, and he belieied that very slight repairs.
would. render these lust fit. for active service. The crews Were,
ocasionally occupied in thistilock-yards.
Mr. F. YOVIsIG. said that' lienacers.to whom the hon. mem-
ber for Middlesex referred, were charged with most iMportant,
duties, and he thought that they ought to receive alitieral re-
compense for their services. At the same time he entirely con-,
curred in the economical views of the hon. member for:Mid-•
dlesex.—The vote ,was, then agreed to. •
The sum of £23,42Twas voted for the. establishments abroad!
without observation. _ _

The next vote proposed was ..E438,426 for wages of persons,
employed in establishments at home.
Mr. B. CARTER said that he Was instructed by his constittentsi
to press upon ministers the-propriety of notearrviiig into.iffe et
the-propesetl-r eduetiote of—the manlier of artillee-re employed-in
Portsmouthdoek-,yard. The- consequence of sucha proceeding'
would be au aggravation of the distress which already prevailed,
amongst, the. labouring classes, and an augmentation of the
poor-rates,: 1-lis co.ustituents,also complained of thepratt,tice el
employing convicts in the deck-yards„ and' represented that if
they were withdrawn there would he no. neeessity for
mg ah-. of the artificers.
Sir (5. STA UN TON eXprese4.l, a hope that eopv,icts, iald•no
longer be al;owed to work.in the dock,yarib,
Captain DuNDAS said lre believed that the distress which ex-
isted at.Deptford, only a fr. miles from the house, .w4i3 greate.r
than that prevaiiing in. Irmand, about which they. had, heard so
much.. The poor-rates at Deptford amounted, at, the present
moment fo ISs: in the pound. _
Sir J. 0.4 A sahl. that .it wai.witll, the „greetest, reluctance
that he and his coileageei had resolved to discharge any, artiii- ,
cers at present employed in the. dock-,yards.; in proof of .whic,h,
he might mention that it. was , only now, after they had. been
three years in. Offiee„ and had: effected every other saving% that
they could consistently, with the efficiency uf, thoservice, that
they, proposedj,tO. reduce the number of artificers,tetboseule
which hail been fixed .bv the ministers, who prfceded them,,
namely, to 6,000 men. by
reduction had been, postponed
until the winter .muuths'had passed,- in the hope that aid per-
sons (liselnaged.inight. be able to obtaiu, emplos;mcnt,:eiatring,
the snail-Lief. Minty tern thought.. that When ihe were,waking
this reductiou„it Wytildf be a iit occasion for renioNiug,the staler
WhiCh attached to the adnimiStration of nebtieaff4i.rs,„l4,
ins convicts to be employed in dock-yaras at a timewhen free,
and honest men were unable. to. Koenre.work.. (11,0 try.,) The
discontinuance of tl4seprectice would be not only pelirically;
but pecidiarty adVantaVQl,lSyllor at, present the, eli4rge: of send-
ing convicts, to....Nee•bnuth Wales wiis. unity 120. per, man, test
so great was the demand for labourers there, that on their ar-
, rival they, could be„ immediately, assigned to, einployers.uppn
terms wineh,wouldsecure the putAie a at any loss. It would,.
be unwise to tranSportsuchconviets ashad.alteatly-_served a con-,
sicierable, portion of the period ,for,whia they were sentenced.
to he transported; but from this. time...no: fresh couviete, would
been ploselLinpubli e works.
426;905 for the wages of artificers audlabourers in the.-d . ock,
yards abreact Was .next agreed, to.
L:423,000f0r naval stores, repairing docks, &c., was the, next.
vote.
Mr. Hussy said that the limited supply was the mischievous
consequence of the private contract syt,tem.
After a few words, was agreed' to.
The next vote was that 1.:63,700 he.grantect to defray .the'
charge for new works and improvements in the yardS.
The vote was then agreed to, as were several other grants,
after a brief discussion.
On the motion tll:tt,a sum. not exceeding;B7l;f3s9l.: be granted,
to his, Tliaiesty..feLthe. purpose of Uefraving:the half-pa' .offl-
cers of the oyal 14avy and Marines,—
Mr. lit me leek occasion to, 06.g:a to the. amount of this-
grant, oflicers,were taken from the list and. placed.
upon full pay, as Vacancies occurred in the. service, not only
would the amount t,f, this grant 'be diniinished, but an easy
mettiod.would be, found, of remunerating individuals why, by
their Past coutlitet,hael deserved well of their country.
Captain D. .I)u;se.ts expressed his. surprise at, the objection
taken. to thiS vote by, the, lion, nieuiber. for kidellesex. If Ms
plan wore. adopted, the navy would be oflkered by men who
were alreiuly, worn out in the set sac. lie called' the attention
of the.connuittee to the scanty pittance,which was now allowed
half-pay to those meritorious Men, the pursers, in• the navy.
Mo,, D YEx complained of the manner in which prothution
was granted. in the navy, and refes red to a return recently laid
upon the table of the !louse to plove: that it.had:been bestowed
in fartne.greala.pruportion.upou young:men connected either.
with the aristocracy, or with these. who had great Parliamentary
influence.
Sir J. Gaitima..challenged investigation. nto. the recent.pro-.
motions in the navy, and eon tendedahat they had been bestowed,
not upon young. men 'of high family and, Parliamentary influ-
' ence, but upon oflicers who had earned them by meritorious.
service. If the naval, force of the, country
•were to be .kept up
at all,• promotion could not be. laid aside, but must he herd out
to officers as a stimulus for their exertions, , With respect to
the. pay, of pursers, it was impossible to make alterations in one
service without leading to alterations in others.
The, resolution was then :i.:,•eed to.
Tbefellowing votes were mull agreed to
for military pensions and allowa,nees.
4.:220342 for civil pensions and allowances. •
i.:200,84,.) for freigat.of ships for the transport or troops and
" store!. '

£118,300. for the conveyance 4 convicts

The CHAQl44srw then 9ported‘ progre
tu,sit again dttliVed'hesday:
Mr. It. GORDON resqutsted the hon. barn
respecting the commercial relations with
morrow to postpone it, as it might interfer
meats now goiarg forward otOlie subject.
Sid G 5 STA Ui11:615 CODSqlittittl (asi we under.
Aticl.--ify ICES BILL. Ls
Mr. LAMB moved the second reading o(tr'
office Bill. N.,j

I!r. HAwas would not object to the se

bill, if the hon. gentleman would agree to a
Uoificiurfe iiiiro—tEe—w-fiole police system.
LA.1414 saidlut should not object to sui
The bill was theu read a second time.
LANCASTER ASSIZES RII"
Mr. EWART moved the order of the day
bate on the Lancaster Assizes Bill.

The SoLicuron-
.GI.:NEitAL proposed an
thoFize his Majesty to remove the assizes of
la4and Wales, to any place where his Maj
think fit. This, he ob;ei'vecl, would render
this object unnecessary„
After a deSnltCry conversation, in which
WASON, Mr. EW An; the SOLICITOR-GENE
participated;
Mt. Ewmcr withdrew his motion.

The motion of the Sotacyroa-OswEitAL NV'
• and leave was given to bring. in a bill aceo.V
The other orders of the day having been
adjourned at 12 o'cioek.
TUESDAY.
The Speaker took the Chair. at twelve. o'c,
Mr. Ellice and-Mr. Stanley took the. oath.s
The Llanelly Railway' and Dock Bill
time.

71`1;e nouse was thew ocuvied, in the MC'
until two o'clock,' when the. Speaker left the

The house re-aspen bled at five,
A message from the Lords communicak.
ships had agy.ecd to Sir J. Soane's DtLusemr!
amendment. •
Sir R. INGLIS called the attention of the.
• • • his noble
presented yesterday'by his noble friend, the
dos, from Abraham Wilkinson and John
the time for entering into recognizances in t'
lebone election petition. It appeared from,
petitioners that the law had been substanti,
that the names of the sureties had. been regua
sitting member, and that the parties attended.
entering into recognizances, which, however 1
, 11.001
a mistake of the agent, were not entered into ~'
those circumstances, he thought the present 1'1'4.00;
dulgenco of the house, and should move th4lt t to/0
ing into recogniaances on the Marylebone
enlarged till Monday, the 2.1 d inst.
The-house divided
Noes . .
• Ayes .

Majority against the motion d,br,,
• Mr. Fium, asked When the returns which bn,e. 7
back inoveil. for refative to sinecures, and solar"
of diplomatic officers, would be ready.
Mr. S. limn hoped they woubd be present°
.the 'week.
' Mr. EWARI' gave notice of his motion for if 16
-bill abolishing capital punishment in eases °ler
transportation and letter-stealing, for 'l•hurt,., .4°
June.- He renewed for the same day his u°'",lo-
leave to bring in a bill for holding the Luei..,,,:vil!
adjounnnent at Liverpool and Manchester,;;;eet
it last night to make way for the. Solicitorno
.that bill did not confer the required renred,v, `cf
felf etl lf)
so strongly convine'or the justice d O'e,
pool and Manchester, that he should certainlY
'own bill. ".
fil
JUVENILE OFFENDERS.
Sir E. WiLsityr rose to noire for leave t°
alter and •areend•so much of the 7th and Sth 040,2,
.28, as:related to proceedings in- indictraeut%Pfl
-previously convicted of felony; also to alters loe,
'of the itir and Bth of Georg,e• c. 29,. „„,vell'",fil
ings by indictment against persons, under bare!;
-age charged with 'shiiplelareetiles. The hon." try
'of the early imprisonment of-mere children f°•`.o
-and stated-that daring the last seven yeur b°o
Warwick 1,300 individuals had been tried Islet
age of eighteeib_and of these one half•were!ei
system of punishingloys who lad crone
out knowing tart they were couimitting ieAthePi4l
ment in cummon gaols) instead of keel-UP:4 r 003
water, for a liwited period in proper plat; es,, ° scp,
lug them iu suniniery and judicious no n pt.!'
tiouaplc. By tho prescui-, mode of trial. All'.
Iptt
prineiple of ,;hante.was.tiestroYed in yett:.l'
soon converted,into haMened offenders.
moving for.leive to'biaug in a hill to
much of the act Of 7 and+ George IV. e.•
-proceedings in. indictments ,against one.
-previonsly convicted orfeleny; also to alt
of the, actal,the.7tlt.ar.d Btli George IV. e
proceedings by inciictinQnt against perSni
Seventeen Charged with simple larceny.
Mr., 1.,Am44 said that the bill which tire
lil
to introduce. would. be perfectly useic ss.
had-nonlijectiontathe bringing iu of that
hill relative to the ,joveniie. otlendets. It
justly held a most objectionable practice4'
ordinary and coriononotience.s to pub-lie--i
expesed to. all the contamination arising
went, and. that matter had not now, for the
der the consideration of the house, or of col
Great ohjeetions, however, hail alwaY*l),.`
doubts had heeristaited, a& to the-practiow'
to t be,one now,proposett for the removal.. of
the principal difficulties as to the details'
mtways.been. that they might afford tu(134',,,•
offenders to ese.ape arising; from the
noting between, thf:tra and lem,,guilty
be wide the only standard of punishuieP
known that; amongst the. juvenile thieve'
up in Lomita), there, were -boys as exPe,',
practitioners in guilt;. and it would sure"
that such; hogs, who had, been actually be
escape. under cover of their. age, and
Ile believ,ed:that the general opinion of 11' Aeb
sat upon. secondary .panishments was teatbe.
this particular subject would be V.V.i.O
(he del not object to. the introduction O
Isuch au object as it had in view could w;.grf:veu
the was ready to admit that it would "0 tit" J
iting au end to• crime, at least amoug'4
the. community. st,ss
Sir FREMANTLE said that there
I betwe,en juveitile:oiclitters in Luxe o°l,tt '
in the country districts, and he thoug"'..:cogi.!;,•ilie,l
give magistrates the power, ofelli that
to boys who sliould be brought before sai°,,hilt 1:10
;was ready. to admit.,.as. he had alreoil.,),';,,..hea
4ifferent,in. towns. If it. we 'e esttorio.(lol' to
itain age should be exempt from a coot tacos
the old thieves in towas would-eioplo.r
,most.daring robiseries and.offenee'• the bal.-,
Leave was then, given: to bring in
thated
l‘i
rt.heL t. it iiP• a to
inExolsrAexL.RtTialinc,k,piAtill'f6lrlisNcinS.BgveltNroe'sl_a'ulicm:ol:s;:ooCoro,ol:::::o:ticoo:
t.cet, of criminal jurisprudence, the arYll t4_l
to remove all traces of that, sang." iu the,: of
impressed on it iu those times .whet poUilcA'
blood and nothing but blood,, eisßoii the t,
ifs
gaited for- every, offence. lie wisP' reiA'ai t
sure toundertak.e.an entir.e revisieua k
(code. It
lsincEe•mnte.d toßthrtinathtieluertos,euveeillu..:::ll.l:7;beco:il!i:ii:
whose.opiuions wore entitle .t° g„o".ht thO!'l,B,l
tnoti I.o'
a. different opinion, and: who., •
.ea4e.
fi
Iproveniouts in our code werwhest ►o,ooo'o
idiviamil members bringing forvvay
inost,coni
Imenth as to,t.hemselves.inightseein,er
!theileiorodeteimined laing u"‘.`.., tge.ol
!house the. state of the law, iu. rega"l
!which le thought.there would be li_n%e he shit
• icaight to be ehanged.- But.the
cle!rather .n om hail than acad._ The law wi`h
of death on the crimes of haus -me,
• astir
linorgighbi eac dr, wa.
ll but dead letters ill the st wale'
been for, many, years sand they couldic-ft
oti
pf'orruer.
for the (.11
'the returns, It would be seen t every 9lti
;ing.during the last 7 years,.
of ell
ril°re• .
executed, gnu
aairtito totetyla see ebmarebdaioir:Tal y.itotof
who. had. been COUViCt !car
_010"1).°'
ICKecuted. Taking.the last. two, '
tiens to cenvictiens was still less

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