The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-12 00:00:00

THE LIVERPOOL STANDARD.

ages about him (renewed laughter); he was not disposed to do
away with this unassuming house (a laugh) ; he did not mean
the members, he spoke of the house itself. (Laughter.) He
disapproved of the plan of substituting in its place a kind of
semicircular theatrical building, such as had been proposed.
The hon. member proceeded to say he had seen the public
chambers on the continent, and the result of his observations
'was, that it was very difficult to construct a large building in a
manner favourable to hearing. You might even have two
edifices of the same shape and dimensions, and in one the
hearing would be good, and in the other bad,—it was a kind
of mystery in the science of acoustics. (Great laughter.)
Therefore, if they built another house; they could not guaran-
tee that it would be so well adapted for the purpose of Parlia-
ment as the present. The hon. gentleman next observed, that
on the seat now so ably occupied by the Speaker Sir Thomas
More had formerely presided, and there nobly maintained the
dignity of the Commons, withstood all Royal infringements,
and successfully resisted Cardinal Wolsey. (Laughter and
cries of Question.)
Mr. O'CONNELL.—One word in sober sadness. He would
ask the house whether it was not desirable that, in one way or
another, the public should be acquainted with the conduct of
their representatives in. Parliament? And,how was it possible
for them to be correctly acquainted with it, if not only the
members themselves, but those who reported the proceedings
of the house, were unprovided with proper accommodation ?
(Hear.) It was desirable that every facility should be afforded
for giving what passed in parliament to the world, and that
their proceedings should no longer go forth as if merely by con-
nivance and sufferance. There was no use in pretending to be
blind to the matter,—the thing was done,—their proceedings
were regularly published, and he might as well add that the
public would not suffer the publication to be suppressed. If
the obsolete rules and orders of the house on this subject were
enforced—if the right of publication were resisted, they would
have a revolt among the people. (" Hear," and " Oh,'oh.")
Under such circumstances, accommodation should be afforded
with a view to their proceedings being communicated fairly
and accurately to the public, and difficulties ought not to be
interposed which rendered the plea of inaudibility or want of
requisite accommodation sufficient to account for the existence
of defects in the reports. The hon. baronet spoke of the moral
associations and inspiring recollections connected with that
house, and alleged them as reasons for not abandoning it, but
he had not gone far enough back in his reminiscences; he
should have directed attention to the time when this was St.
Stephen's Chapel, 'and when the sacrifice of the mass had been
celebrated in it. It was necessary to advert to that circum-
stance in order to complete the historical recollections which
connected the house with times gone by; but it would not have
served the hon. baronet's purpose to go so far back. We had
come at last to the days of common sense; and on the pi esent
occasion it was not necessary to talk of Pym or Hampden,
when the only point to be decided was that of convenience or
inconvenience. If it was resolved not to remedy the defects
complained of by an alteration of the house, the only way that
remained to remove the inconvenience was to send 105 of the
members back to Ireland. (Laughter.)
Mr. D. DUNDAS objected to voting away the public money,
for the purpose of building a new House of Commons, whilst
so manyi of the people were starving.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL observed, that the gallant officer made
no objection to voting away the public money, when Mr.
Hume's motion on military pensions and sinecures was under
discussion, on which occasion the hon. and gallant member
voted in the majority.
Mr. D. DUNDAS was glad of the opportunity afforded him of
explaining the grounds of his vote on Mr. Hume's motion,
especially as representing a large constituency; he had several
letters from voters calling on him to do so. On the occasion
referred to, the hon. member for Tralee admitted that if the mo-
tion were agreed to the army must be paid more than at present;
but he (Mr. D. Dundas), thinking that they were paid suffi-
ciently, had refused to support a resolution the result of which
would be to increase the charge of the army.
The resolution was then agreed to, and the committee was ap-
pointed.

FEES OF CLERKS OF THE PEACE.

Mr. HODGES moved for the appointment of a select commit-
tee to inquire into the fees, charges, and emoluments of the
clerks of the peace and the clerks of assize in England and
Wales.

Mr. HUMS hoped that the committee would inquire whether
the party receiving the fees did the duty themselves or by de-
puty.
Mr. HODGES said that the object of inquiry was to embrace
the whole subject.
Mr. SLANEY observed that local taxation was a very fit ob-
ject of inquiry, when it was considered how much it had in-
creased within a tew years, and that 'it amounted to nine mil-
lions annually. (Hear.)
The motion was agreed to, and the committee appointed.

delude the ignorant, which he was not prepared to contest. lie would
undertake to do that himself. (Laughter.)
Mr. Coaam rose, but was received with cries of " Spoke," and
sat down again.
Mr. O'CONNELL said it was evident that the right hon. secretary
was well prepared for combat (a laugh ;) but, in sober sadness (much
laughter) did he mean to deny that the hon. member for Oldham had
correctly abstracted the schedules of the stamp act? Vulgar arith-
metic was a test which never failed in such questions as the present.
Although he admired the spirit of chivalry with which the right hon. ,
secretary had volunteered to break a lance with the hon. member
for. Oldham, he would caution him that common sense might triumph
_over Treusury dexterity. (Hear and a laugh.)
Mr. Hosts expressed a hope that the combat which had been ap-
pointed between the hon. members would "come off " at an early day.
(A laugh.)
Mr. FRYER agreed with the hon. member for Oldham in the view
he took of the inequality of taxation.
Mr. P. How Ann rose to speak to the question, and was received by
a universal burst of laughter. The hon. member, however, perse-
vered in addressing the house. He proceeded to say that the taxes
on houses and windows, especially the former, ought to be repealed ;
that the country expected this remission, and had great confidence
in its being effected by the reformed Parliament ; and he hoped when
the budget was brought forward after the sth of April (renewed
laughter)--
Slr J. Hosnousa.—The Ist of April. (Here the laughter became
most uprorious, and lasted for several minutes.)
Mr. 'Howean, as soon as he could obtain a hearing, declared that
he would not be put down •in that way. He had always been an
earnest and steady supporter of the ministry, and he had expected
that more courtesy would have been shown him than had been dis-
played by the hon. Secretary at War. (Laughter.) The hon. mem-
ber concluded by declaring that he was doing but his duty in thus
earnestly and solemnly calling the attention of the house to the sub-
ject of the repeal of the house and window taxes.

- SECIATt DUTIES.
The order of the day for receiving the report of the Committee of
Ways and Means having been read, the report was brought up. On
the question that it be read,
Mr. HUME moved as an amendment, that in future all sugar im-
ported from the colonies should pay, a duty of 155., instead of 245.
He said that though his ultimate object was the equalization of the
duties on East and West India sugar, he should for the present limit
himself to the above amendment. Ile thought the noble lord, how-
ever,. would do well to adopt the ad ralorurn duty, which the commit-
tee had recommended. The reduction which he recommended would
not only be beneficial to the country at large but advantageous to the
We st India body likewise. •
Mr. STEWART said, that the West India proprietors did not deem
the present the proper occasion to resist the imposition of the tax.
They conceived the Government to be earnestly engaged in the
_pre-
paration of measures of amelioration as respected their (the West
India proprietors') interests, anti that the period was approaching
when the important question would be decided for ever.
Mr. HERRIES said that if the reports were true that Government
had some such measures in preparation, it was not right to bring for-
ward the present resolution. In his opinion there was besides an
irregularity,in the proceeding altogether, for the house ought not to
be called on to vote money before the way in which it was to be ex-
pended was pointed out. The house, he conceived, ought not to be
called upon to vote away money except for the payment of such Ex-
chequer bills as were outstanding,•and yet they were now asked to
vote all the ways and means.
Lord ALTIIORP would admit the general principle that a reduction
of duty tended to increase consumption, so as to prevent a loss of
revenue, but could not, in the present state of the revenue, venture to
adopt such an extensive reduction as that proposed by the honourable
member for Middlesex. That reduction would effect the revenue to
the extent of £l,Boopo, an amount which conld not be safely risked
on the mere chance of increasing the consumption. Ile was less in-
cluded to make the reduction on recollecting that the revenue lost the
whole amount of the reduction from 275, to 245. (hear) ; so that to
make a small reduction would only injure the revenue without essen-
tially benefiting the consumer ; and to make so large a one as from 24s
to 15s. would be the risking a very great diminution of the revenue on
the chance of a counterbalancing increased consumption. (Hear, hear.)
Again, the hon. member said his object was the benefiting the West
India interest, by consuming all its produce in this country, and yet
in the same breath he proposed the admission of East India sugars
at a reduced duty. Did it not follow that the latter proposition
would destroy the former, inaasnuch as the competition must tend to
drive West India sugar out of the market to the extent of the con-
sumption of the East India ? Those, however, though strong, were
not his chief objections to the hon. member's motion. He conceived
that the
ipresent was a most improper time for adopting such a propo-
sition : n the first place, they were shortly, in the course of the pre-
sent session, to have to inquire into the general bearing of the East
India Company's charter, and also 'a question deeply involving the
commercial interest of the West India colonies ; so that, on the face
of it, it would be highly inexpedient to adopt any ex parte proposi-
tion in reference to either interest. (Hear, hear.) With respect to
the complaint of the right hon. gentleman (Mr. 'lorries) of his hav-
ing proposed a committee of ways and means before he had brought
forward the financial statement ot'the t'ear, he could only say, that the
objection was technical, inasmuch as the house would possess several
future opportunities of refusing the grants now asked for. And as to
his not having sooner brought forward the annual financial statement,
he net d only remind the right hon. gentleman that the quarter ending
the sth of April was one of great importance in framing a satisfactory
balance-sheet. Last year, for example, that quarter made a difference
of .C 600,000, as compared with the same quarter of the year 1831. He
only awaited the returns of the current quarter, confident that the
financial statement for 1833 would be satisfactory.
The report was then received. •
On the resolution imposing 249. duty on West India sugar,
Mr, Heats proposed his amendment, reducing the duty to 15s.
The amendment was negatived without a division, and the original
resolution agreed to.

The other resolutions were read and agreed to, and the report or-
dered to be taken into further consideration on Monday next.
Adjourned at a quarter past 1 o'clock.
_ FRIDAY.

The' SPEAKER took the chair shortly after 12 o'clock.
Mr. lioocEs brought in a bill for making and maintaining a
railway, from London to Greenwich.
On the motion of Mr. Alderman Worm, leave was given to
bring in a bill to incorporate the Imperial Gas Company.
Several road and other private bills having been advanced a
stage,
he SPEAKER announced that the private business had been
disposed of, and put it to the pleasure of the house whether,
according to the arrangement made yesterday, the petitions
relating to the Irish Disturbances' Bill only should be presented.
(Hear.) If, when all those had been presented, there was an
opportunity, of course petitions upon other subjects could be
presented; but he confessed that he was not very sanguine
there would be such an opportunity. (Laughter.)
Mr. CURTEIS suggested that the names should be taken as
they appeared on the books of the house.
'I he SPEAKER said it would be unfair to strike off the name of
any member who had other petitions to present. Gentlemen
would have the kindness, when they presented their petitions,
to say whether they had others upon any other subject; if they
had, their names would of course remain, but if they had not,
their names would be struck off.

Lord G. LENNox complained that some hon. members had
their names down no less than four or live times, whereas he
thought that no name should be down more than once. Though
he had attended every day at each sitting of the house, he had
been. unable to present the petitions with which he had been
intrusted by his constitutents, who, in consequence, imagined
that he (Lord G. Lennox) was negligent of his duty.
Mr. HUME concurred in thinking that much inconvenience
arose from the system complained of by the noble lord, and
moved that all names entered more than once be struck out.

The SPEAKER intimated that at the morning meeting of the
house the motion could not be entertained.

ntisti DISTURBANCE BILL.
Petitions against this measure were presented by Mr. Hume
from the Political Union of Dunfermline, the inhabitants of
Falkirk, from 1,330 inhabitants of London and its vicinity;
from Hounslow, Stroudwater, the Political Unions of Kenil-
worth and Leamington; Dr. Baldwin from the city of Cork,
signed by 20,00 k) of its inhabitants, and from several other
places in Ireland; Mr. Herbert Curteis from Battle, Sussex;
Mr. Barron from the city of Waterford, and various places in
the counties of Waterford and Kilkenny ;, Mr. J. O'Connell
from Yonghal; Mr. W. Beetle from St. Michams and two
other places in the city •of Limerick ; Mr.. Hall from Newport,
Monmouthshire; Mr. T. Attwood from Birmingham and
several places in Warwickshire and Staffordshire; Mr. F.
O'Connor twelve from various places in Ireland; Mr. Buck-
ingham from the Political Union of Sheffie.d;. Mr. C. Buller
from Liskeard; Mr. Lalor from several places in Ireland; Mr.
Brotherton from the Political Union of Salford; the Solicitor-
General from the borough of Dudley; Colonel Butler from
Ballyragget and five other parishes in the county of Kilkenny;
Mr. Sulovan from several other places in the county of
kenny; and by Mr. J. Fieldcn from Oldham, signed by 5,000
inhabitants of that place.
The Speaker left the chair at 3 o'clock.
The house resumed at five o'clock.

Sir T. FREMANTLE brought up the report of the committee
on the Oxford borough election etition, declaring that so
Much of the return as applied to Colonel Stonor was null and
void, and that Mry Hughes's petition against his return was
neither frivolous nor veNatiotm.

A new writ was accordingly issued for the borough.
On the motion of LordEnniNoToN, a pew writ was issued
for the borough of Mary!ebone, in the room of Mr. Portman,
who has, owing to ill health, accepted the Chiltern hundreds.
The SPEAKER informed •the house, that the petitioners
against the return for the 'Stirling and Linlithgow joint boy
roughs had not entered. into the proper recoginzances. .The
order of the day for the consideration of this petition was
accordingly discharged.
Mr. IJENNARD gave notice, that on the 28th of March ha.
should move fqr the repeal of the 7th and Bth sectiops of the
Ist and 2nd of William IV., c. 32, being the act lately passed
for the preservation of game ; arid so much of section 30'of the
samp act as is coinprise'd between the words." Provided always"
and the end of the clause: And that on the 16th of April he
should move for the repeal of so much of the 7th and Bth of
George IV., c. 29, s. t 2, as enacts "That if any person shall
break and enter uny dwelling-house, and steal therein any

chattel, money, or valuable security, to any value whatever,
in any dwelling-house, any person therein being put to fear,
every such offender, being convicted thereof, shall suffer death
as a felon."

On the molion,of Mr. Gittorr, a return was ordered, by
address, of a copy of the commission under which the rector ut
Porlocj„ in Somersetshires, levied a tithe on fish. (Hear.)
On the motion .of Mr. O'Connell, founded on the petition of
Miyllonayne, the ballot for a committee on the petition against
the return for the borough of Clonmel was postponed till the
16th of May.
Lord ALTHORP stated, in answer to a question•of Mr. Gout-
bur'n, that the'house would meet to-morrow for receiving the
petitions against the Irish coercive bill, in the event of that
bill's being read a second time that night : if it should not, the
house would meet to-morrow, in order to continue the debate;
.a.nd meet on Monday morning for the purpose of ,receiving the
petitions.

GRAND JURIES (IRELAND) BILL.
Mr. ST-ARLEY moved the order of the day for the second .
reading of this bill. As-the bill was to be -referred for minute
discussion to a select committee, he did not anticipate any dis-
cussion or objection on that occasion.
After a few wbrdsl from Mr. O'Cosisiem., approving of die
course proposed by the right hon. secretary, the bill was read a
second time, and a. select committee appointed.
DISTURBANGES (IRELAND) BILL.
Lord ALTTIORP moved the order of the day for the second
reading of this bill,
Mr. HUME said he would take advantage of that opportunity •
to state his decided hostility to the measure. He never felt
more regret than in thus offering his marked and uncompro..
mising hostility to an administration of which he had hitherto
been a warm supporter.,
.(A laugh, and " Hear.") But if the
members of that administration so speedily and indecently .
forgot the principles of which they were the noisy advocates for
some twenty-five years,--to which advocacy, moreover, they
were wholly indebted for their political reputation and power,
—and thus ventured to violate the law and the constitution by
a measure with,wnich the most arbitrary of their Tory prede-
cessors would have never dared to insult an enlightened public
—a measure which, in the end, would recoil as much to the
injury of its framers as it would prove detrimental to the
general interests—he at least would do his duty by warning
them against the wickedness of their proceedings. (Hear, ,
hear.) He called upon them to pause in their rash career.
He called upon the house to pausein bestowing its still more
rash sanction. Ministers were bound to prove their case before
they asked parliament to arm them with such extraordinary and
unconstitutional power,—they were bound to show that they
had tried all the known powers of the law in vain, as they
were also bound to show that the Irish had no complaints on,.
redressed to warrant their being lawless. The hon. member,
4fter expressing his opinion of the expediency of not granting
toe extraordinary powers demanded by. government without
further information, concluded by moving the following reso-
lution :—" That the house deeply laments the disturbed state
of some of the districts in Ireland, and is willing to intrust to
his Majesty whatever powers may be necessary to control and'
punish the disturbers of the public peace, and the midnight
violators of the law; but is of opinion that it has not been satis-
factorily shown, that the existing laws are not sufficient for
those purposes, and it cannot, therefore, give its consent to a
bill which places Ireland out of the pale of the British consti-
tution."

Mr. Alderman Woon seconded the resolution. He said he .
was no enemy to the present ministers; indeed; he was almost
ready to lay down his life to support them, both in and out of
that house, but he could not give his consent to the proposed
bill. He was not disposed to Untie any government, whether
Whig or Tory, for the present state of Ireland; the fault lay
with the landlords of that country, (hear)—with the magistracy
and other authorities, whose duty it was to keep the country in
peace, but who shamefully neglected that duty.
TANCRED said that the statements made by several of
the Irish members in opposition to this bill had satisfied him
that the elements out of which society was formed were about
to be completely severed in Ireland. Before the house could
consider whether the clauses suspending the Habeas Corpus
Act, establishing courts-martial, and giving the right of nightly
search, were too severe or not, it was requisite to consider
Whether they were not necessary to establish the security of
liberty and property in that country. He thought that they
were necessary for that purpose, and therefore he felt it to be
his imperious duty to give his vote for the second reading of the
bill.

Colonel CONOLLY would not have said one word upon this-
question had it not been for the hon. member.forlirldleset,
whose speech of that evening had been filled with the most
extraordinary statements respecting the condition of Ireland
which he had ever heard, and which he could only account for
on the ground of the hon. member's misapprehension of what
was passing in that country. (Hear.)
Mr. RICHARDS would not consent to suspend a tittle of the
liberty of the people unless he had the opportunity of stating
publicly his reasons for doing so.
Lord. OXAIANTOWIC denied that the county of Kilkenny was
not in a disturbed state.

Mr. RoNAYNE rose to give his most strenuous opposition to
this bill of pains and penalties. The bill was, amongst othet
things, framed, as appeared by its preamble, to put down cer-
tain dangerous conspiracies. What dangerous conspiracies ?
Ile knew of no conspiracy, except the conspiracy against tithes
in Ireland, and ministers were anxious to avow that the bill
was not intended to aid the forcible collection of tithes. The
bill, it also appeared, was brought firward to put an end to
meetings of large bodies of armed persons, who impeded the
free course of justice; but what evidence had ministers adduced
to show that there were large bodies of armed men going about
and filling the peaceable with fear and terror? There wero
three or tour inland counties in which a species of agrarian yin-
lence prevailed, bitt he denied that large bodies of armed 'men
were disturbing the free course of justice.
Mr. J. BROWNE was one of those who thought the present
measure necessary for the safety of Ireland, and should there-
fore givb it his support. He could assure the hon. member for
Middlesex that there were Irish members of respectability and
independence who concurred in the necessity of the bill. For
his own part he came to that conclusion after the most careful
consideration, and after the last five months' personal observa-
tion of the state of things in Ireland.
Sir JOHN KEY wished, in a very few words. to state the rea,-
sons which induced him to vote for the second reading of .this
bill. Ile conceived that it was impossible for any impartial
man, who had heard the discussions that had taken place ou
this subject, not to arrive at the conelnsion that it was abso-
lutely necessary to entrust his Majesty's government with
stronger powers to put down the disgraceful insubordination
that at present existed in Ireland. (Hear.)
Mr. JOHN MARTIN said that he would give his vote for the
second reading of the bill, reserving to himself the pOwer, when
it was in committee, to object to many' of its details. He en-
tirely agreed with the statement in the preamble of the bill,
that there did exist in Ireland a conspiracy against life and
property, and that there were associations in that country which
were inconsistent with its peace and tranrillity, and on such
grounds he should vote for the principle of this measure.
Lord ALTHOR P. The resolution which had been proposed by the
hon. member for Middlesex would have been match mow appropri-
ately introduced upon the first reading of the bill, instead of being
brought forward now, after the bill had been subjected to such a
protracted discussion. His hon. friend the member for Kildare, had
concurred in opinion with the committee that Aronger measures were
necessary ; but it had ben asked why remedial measures had not
been first proposed, and lvhy the measure of church reform had not
been brought into the House of Lords. The other house could not
do so, for that was a Money question, and must originate in this
house ; and therefore he had opened it here, in order to 'sheer" that
ministers were ready to adopt measures of a remedial nature. (Hear.)
If the house had thought that they (the ministers,) though admitting
t flat remedial measures were necessary, stood still and did, not 'nears
to remedy the grievances of Ireland, they work{ hare no right hi
ask the confidence of the house. It had been said that there
had been no proof that political agitation was connected with
prandial crimes. No man could be farther than he from contend-
ing that political agitation was the sole cause of praxlial offences, but
it had been admitted that the effect of political agitation was such that
It must produce irritation and discontent, and the consequence was
that they must necessarily lead to the commission of crime and out-
rage, and therefore the consequence of what the associations were do-
ing was, that though they did not originate, they encouraged criminal
outrages in the country; The effect of the bill was not only to coun..
teract these acts which tended to deter witnesses from coming for-
ward, but it went directly to prevent nightly outrages. The hon.
member for Clonmel objected that he had not mentioned the names of
the writers of the letters. He could only say that he trusted the house
would give him credit for having read 7enutrie letters, and that the
effect of mentioning the names of the writers would be to eipose them
to injury.
Mr. GRATTAN said that he would have consented to grant ministers
the power of making domiciliary visits, and the powers of the Insur-
rection Act, but he would not go so far as this bill. The hon, mem,
her for Dublin might be a dictator, he did not know any thing about
that •, he had never dictated to him; but if they were to put down one
dictator, let them not legalise another.
After some conversation the order of the day for the second reading
of the bill was then read and fixed for Monday.
Mr. SUEIL gave notice, that on the 21st of March he would submit
a resolution respecting tithes.
Sir J. GRAHAM gave notice, that on Wednesday next he would bring
forward the navy estimates.
The house then, at a quarter to 1 o'clock, adjourned to Monday.

By a parliamentary return, it appears that the costs of the
prosecution of Dennis Collins, the crazy old pensioner, who
threw a stone at the King, at Ascot races, amounted to
087 its. Id., of which sum £216 19s, were paid to counsel.