The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-04-09 00:00:00

BOROUGH OF HERTFORD.

Mr. BERNAL, pursuant to the notice he gave yesterday, rose
to move that the issuing of the Speaker's warrant to the clerk
of the Crown for making out a new writ for the election of two
burgesses tor the borough of Hertford, in the room of Lords
ingestrie 'and Mahon, whose election was declared void, be sus-
Tended ; but before he put his motion into the Speaker's hand's,
he would move that the special report of the Hertford election
committee be read.

The report was.then read—" That it appears to the commit-
tee that bribery and treating prevailed previously to, and dur-
ing, "the last election for the borough of Hertford."
14r. BERNALL said he would not enter into any argument on
the question, but would found his motion on the precedent es-
tablished in the case of the borough of Liverpool, in which,
Ai-hen a similar special report was maue, the house had suspended
the issuing of the Speaker's warrant. He then moved that
the issuing of the Speaker's warraut be suspended till the 24nd
ut April.—Ordered.
It was next ordered that the evidence taken before the com-
mittee be printed.
Mr. WALLACE postponed his two motions relating to certain
law processes in bcotiand sine die.
Mr. KENNEDY, ou the part of the Lord-Advocate of Scotland,
-who was absent through indisposition, postponed the motions
of that learned lord for several bills relating to royal burghs in
t+ebtland till some day after the recess.
POOR-RATES ON CHURCHES, CHAPELS, Q.C.
On the motion of Mr.. WitKs, leave was given to bring in a
bill..to-exempt from poor-rates all churches, chapels, and other
places exclusively appropriated to religious worship.

CHILDREN EMPLOYED IN FACTORIES.

Mr. W. 13.4117EN(i;aving first presented some petitions from
Rochdale and other places in favour of the motion) rose, pur-
suant to the notice, to move for a commission to collect evi-
dence, on the subject of children employed iu factories. He
couM assure his noble friend, who has introduced a bill on the
subject of chialran-employed in factories, that he (Mr. Patten)
but fur the great importance which he attached to an impartial
inquiry, would long since have washed his hands of the business
altogether; but he felt it a duty, from which he could nut dis-
charge himself, to urge this on the house. He hoped that gen-
tiemen would not suffer themselves, in considering this ques-
tion, to be carried away by those feelings of humanity which
the evidence laid before the house was calculated to engender
--evidence, it should be observed, which those whom it was di-'
rected against had not_h4tkMiC opportunity of contradicting up
to the present time. ThAt- evidence was very voluminouS; it
was also of a strong and decisive nature. He would say, that
it bethought that thatevidonce -gave a true description of what
was done in the raanufakturiug districts,—if he believed that
what had been asserted was matter: of fact, he would go much
further than the noble lord,;—he Mould declare that the bill of
the noble lord was not strong enough. (Hear, hear.) But
what he conscientiously felt was this, that these statements were
not true,—that they did not give a correct picture of the manu-
facturing districts (hear, hear) ; and he would add, that even if
they were true, there were more ways than' one—there were
more ways than the bill which the noble lord had introduced—
by which the evil might be-corrected, The only mode by,.which
-tau could arrive at the real facts of the case was by calling for
and granting additional uiry. (Hear, hear.) In the last
Parliament the question *4s referred to a committee, and little
information was deli :ed fr'qrn it. In fact, they were in a much
worse situation than they were before; because the committee
inquired merely into ono/branch of the subject, and that branch,
too, on which there was the least diversity of opinion. The in-
quiry was so limited that the result tended rather to mislead
the house than to enlighten it. He had recently seen, in a Lan-
caster paper, a statement intended to injure the manufacturers,
but which, from beginning to end, appeared to him to be quite
incredible. The writer said that he described a case, the truth
of which he knew himself; and he proceeded to state that a
child was so cruelly treated, so shamefully ill-used by the over-
broker of a factory, that in the struggle the scalp of the poor
creature was pulled off. Could such a statement as this obtain
credence for a moment ? There had been a committee on the
Est India question,—a committee on the West India question,
—a committee on the Bank question—but that on the Factory
Bill was the most expensive and extravagant of all. Not less
dos. 9s. a day, together with their expenses up and down, had
been paid to witnesses, young and old. Not only was that the
fact,' but he believed that some of the public money had been
expended in smuggling witnesses out of London,. because their
evidence did not accord with the feelings of the complainants.
The hou. member concluded by moving, "That an humble ad-
dress be presented to his 14;ajesty, praying that he will be gra-
ciously pleased to appoint a commission to collect information
in the manufacturing districts with respect to the employment
et children in factories, and to devise the best means for the
curtailment of their labours."

Lord MOLYNEUX rose to second the motion, which he did
from motives of pure justice, sound policy, and real humanity.
He had seen much of factorids; and from his close observation,
nothing would lead him to believe that there was an atom of
truth in the gross attacks that had been made on the manu-
facturers. He had visited, the mills of the hon. member for
Nottinghamshire; he had visited the mills of the hou, member
foe Ithehdate ; he. had visited the mills of the-hon. member tor
Manchester; he had also examined several other mills, and in
-ail these instances he had never seen any thing to justify the
slanders which had been cast upon the manufacturers. He
thought they ought to see the existing laws properly acted on
.before they proceeded to legislate' anew. There ought, in the
first instance, to be a proper inquiry into the general state of
the manufacturing population, and their welfare might then,
be more decide:4 forwarded.
Lord ASHLEY said he should oppose the motion. The ap-,,
pointmeut of such a committee as that now called for did nut
appear to him to be necessary, because it was not calculated to
produce such evidence as was desired by the house. ',there was
at present sufficient evidence of this' subject in the possession
of Parliament. In 1766, Dr. Aikin and Dr. Perceval, men of
considerable science, pointed out the numerous evils that were
attendant on this system. In IW2, the late Sir Robert Peel
introduced a bill for the preservation of the health of appren-
tices and others employed in cotton-factories. If any gentle-
man would look at thaebill, he would at once see the enormities
which it was meant to correct. Since he (Lord Ashley)
had the honour, of introducing the bill on this subject, which
- was now before the house, two pamphlets (one of which had
been addressed to himself) had been published with regard to
by two gentlemen connected with manufactures, lie was
surprised to lied that in neither of those pamphlets, especially
that written by' Mr. Kirkman Finlay, was there auy allusion to
the evidence given before the committee of 1832. If that evi-
dence was well founded, they should have acknowledged the
fact; and if, on the other hand, it was false, they should have
exposed it. But under any circumstances they should not
have overlooked it. It was utterly. impossible to suppose that
Mr. Finlay, who was so well qualnied to refute that evidence,
e it could be refuted, would have altogether omitted the consi-
deration of it, *ere if not that- he found it too much for him.
lie (Lord Ashley) wanted no better argument in support of

the measure which he had introduced. If Mr. Finlay could
have refuted the evidence given before the committee of 1832,
he would have done so; but he very wisely let it alone. He
(Lord Ashley) would rest the whole of this case upon medical
evidence, and he would maintain that there was a mass of medi-
cal testimony that could not be got over in favour of his bill.
Unless the house were prepared to declare that the whole of
the medical evidence was unworthy of belief, they must resist the
present motion. The people of thiQ country felt too deeply on
the subject to allow the claims of humanity to be disregarded.
Sympathy for the unfortunate victims of the factory system
extended across the Atlantic, and the newspapers of the 'United
States contained as animated appeals in their behalf as had
appeared in those of England. In conclusion, he called upon
the house, as men and Christians, not to support a motion
which would tend to defeat or delay a measure that the inte-
rests of humanity demanded should be carried as soon as pos-
sible. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. Ross said that there was a great of evidence upon this
question, but it was all on one side. He would vote for the mo-
tion before 'the house, because he thought that the master manu-
facturers ought to be afforded an opportunity of clearing them-
selves from the charges which had been made against them. No
person was more anxious than himself that a bill should. be in-
troduced to settle the hours of labour, and he would support a
rational measure to affect that object.
Mr. GISBORNE complained that year after year one of the
greatest manufacturers in the country was kept in a state of agi-
tation and uncertainty by attempts at legislation on the subject
to which the attention of the house was at present directed. At
the time Sir J. Hobhouse's bill was under consideration no at-
tempt was made to limit the labour of children to ten hours, a
point which was so pertinaciously insisted on. The noble lord
the member for Dorsetshire said that he would throw overboard
;he evidence of the operatives ; and he (Mr. Gisbourne) would
take the liberty of throwing, overboard the medical evidence of
1819, because the system otworking in factories had been com-
pletely altered since then, and the circumstances which render-
ed the occupation prejudicial to health removed.
Mr. WYNN was so friendly to the principle of the bill that he
did not require evidence to induce him to vote for it; at the same
time that he thought a commission of inquiry expedient.
Mr. LENNARD considered the experience of last session de-
cisive as to the effect of inquiry. The committee last year de-
feated the bill for that session; the same effect would be pro-
duced this session by the proposed committee of inquiry. "they
had the fullest evidence before them to warrant their at once le-
gislating in favour of the poor children of England.
Lord 3loarETii spoke to the same effect.
Mr. G. W. AVoon.—What did the noble lord propose? Why,
to reduce by one-sixth the productive power of the country.—
Before, however, he proceeded to make this limitation, lel him
consider whether it would accomplish the real object he pro-
fessed to have in view—the improvement of the condition of the
factory children. The hon. member concluded by asserting that
the present inquiry was sought for as a means of promoting, and
not of impeding, that improvement.
Mr. ROBIN SON contended that fresh inquiry was needless, in-
asmuch as the house was in a condition to legislate on the sub-
ject, not only in consequence of the information obtained from
the committee of last year, but also of that furnished by the
other house of I%rliament.

Dr. LUSHINGTON thought the motion both uncalled for and
unjustifiable. It was worse—it was detrimental, for it would
occasion unprofitable delay:
Mr. PHILIPS hoped that the noble lord would introduce along
with his bill, some concomitant measures for the relief of the
manufacturers. It was well known that the cotton-trade" Was
in such a state that the profits were annihilated.
Mr. FERGUSON advocated inquiry, which could alone lead to
just opinions on this subject.
Mr. SPRING RICE said, that his noble friend, the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, had requested him to express his regret that
he was precluded' from attending the house this evening. The
object of his noble friend was to collect, as far as he could, the
prevailing opinion on this subject in the house; and it must be
clear to every gentleman that the weight of testimony, on the
part of those locally best acquainted with the subject, was iu
•favour of the motion of the hon. member for Lancashire.—
(Hear.) The way to obtain a knowledge of the truth, and the
speediest knowledge,' was by a commission. He (Mr. Rice)
did not support the motion with any view of defeating a proper
bill. All that was asked' on' both sides was, of course, that the
house should legislate with a full knowledge of all the facts.—
The trade and MandfaCtures of this country were too impor-
tant to be sported with; they were a mass'too large to be de-
ranged without serious consequences to the community. Let
this house act with the same discretion as an unreformed House
of Commons; get information first, and then make what use of
it they pleased. '(Hear.)
Mr. M. ATTWOOD said, that the arguments lie had heard in
the course of the debate, led him to believe that some members
supported the commission with a view of delaying and defeat-
ing the bill. There were doubtless exceptions of particular
manufacturers who had been sufficiently justified in the house;
there might have been -exaggerations in the -evidence against-
the factories, but throw these exaggerations out of the mass, and
still there would remain a great uegree of hardship practised,
towards the children employed in 'factories. He would vote
against the commission as unnecessary, and as calculated to
interfere with the progress of a measure (Lord Ashley's bill)
at once just and necessary.
Mr. DUNCOMBE said that, from all the information which
had reached him on the subject, he could not believe that the
commission was necessary. He felt convinced, though with-
out meaning to impute any such intention to hon. gentle-
men opposite, that the inevitable effect of the carrying of this
motion would be the rejection of the bill of his noble friend for
the present session. The evidence taken last year would, in his
opinion, if there had been no other, be A sufficient ground for
his noble friend's bill. in conclusion, the hon. member im-
plored the house to pause before it rejected this bill, I'or that,
for the present session, at least, would be the result of the
adoption of motion for the commission, and to consider well
the certain result of throwing obstacles in the way of that
measure of humanity, wisdom, justice, and sound policy.—
(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. IinSSELL said, that if he thought that the interests
of those connected with, or engaged in, manufactories could be
promoted by the rejection of tue motion before the house, he
would willingly oppose it, and go at once to the consideration
of the bill of the noble lord. 'He fully admitted that the subject
was one on which the 'Parliament ought to legislate, and the
only question was, how best they could do so. 'He (Lord J.
Russell) regretted that the noble lord (Ashley) had, so Changed
his bill as to make it &ppear that the government took part
with the manufacturers against the workmen ; that such was
not the•wish of any member of government it was hardly neces-
sary for him to say. At the same time it was now unavoidable,
but he could not but regret that his noble friend had not framed
his bill with a little more attention to prudence.
Mr. A. MORETON said that he could hot consent, by legislat-
ing in haste, and without inquiry upon this subject, to trample
upon the character of all the manufacturers of England. He
gave his assent most cordially to the motion then before the
house.

Mr. MAXWELL said, if the hon. mover of. the commission'
would agree to limit the report, so as not to prevebt the passing
of the bill, he would support the proposed inquiry ; but on no
other conoitioit would he consent to its appointment. .
Mr. lELUEN said that he had been engaged in the cotton
trade ever since he, had been a child. He was introduced into
his father's mill when he was only ten years old. At that time
they were not accustomed to work more than ten hours in the
Clay. if he could think that the inquiry now proposed would
eiieit the truth, he should be the last man. in the world to•yote
against it. his inipre.ssion was, that if a commission were sent
to the districts in which the factories were situate, it would re-
turn with a eolleCtion of evidence which would be anything but.
the whole truth. he knew that the owners of cotton Mills, and
he had no_ doubt that the owners of silk mills toy, were accus-
tomed, when they received notice that a visit was to be made
to theiffaetories ny persons of consideration, to show their fac-
tories to their visiters in a state not very like that in which they
'would have been had no such notice been given to them. Ile
'had ou all occasions petitioned the house in favour bf reducing
the hours of labour. He thought that the petitions sent to the,
house upon this subject ought not to be disregarded; and it ill
became those who had to legislate for infants to treat this sub-
ject with levity. Thinking that the medical evidence was borne
out by his own experience,- he should certainly support the bill
proposed by the noble lord below him.
Mr. W. PATTEN briefly replied, and, in the course °flits ob-
servations, said that he would alter the terms of his motion so
as to compel the commission to proceed with despatch in col-
lecting evidence, " so as to enable the house to legislate on the
subject during the present session."
The house uivided, when there appeared :
• For the motion ' 74
Against it .

Majority in favour of a commission .• • • I

Lord ASH LEY said, that from the division which the house
had just come to, it was.clear that sonic bill for the regulation
of factories must pass this session. (Loud cheers.) As the
house had decided to appoint a commission, he thought that he
had a right to ask ministers to appoint the commission imme-
diately, and to.place upon it medical men of the highest skill
and eminence. If they did Lot, the country would be of opi-
nion that justice was nut done to this question. He disclaimed