The Liverpool Standard and General Commercial Advertiser.
Liverpool, Merseyside, England, 1833-03-05 00:00:00

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tiler he should refuse them those powers that appeared to be abso-
(Roar,
,_ ecessary for the security of life and property in Ireland.
ermdinear• ) Were they to allow that system to continue which now
roued in Ireland, or were they to put it down by a strong and hi g. Ile,etThrt I Such were the alternatives that were presented to
end to
this in his conscience, believed that it was necessary to put an
such
_ us system of terror and intimidation ; and he believed that if
'4,,,.,, t:'• measure as that now proposed had been introduced two years
114 would have saved them from that which now imperatively
stroll
ion them to act. The state of Ireland did, in his opinion,
acted! Y demand a measure of this nature. Ministers had hitherto
stream with respect to that country, unwisely. They had allowed the
to
an to swell to a river—they had permitted the snowball to increase
Power:‘:alanche ; and now it was necessary to call for extraordinary
great
attention
oriler effectually to check the evil. Ile had listened with
,esntion to the hon. member for Leeds, and one of that hon.
member
observations struck him very forcibly. The hon. member
haert'u_e_ da, that this measure was not, in tact, an abridgment of liberty,
With liberty did not exist in Ireland. He had described Ireland,
The rC.aPect to liberty, to be in a worse state than Algiers. When
fro saliesed to make a good use of the liberty which they enjoyed as
rhey___....ets the consequence ever must be, that until they understood
kn_t__rl interests better that liberty- must be partially curtailed. He
t., 7. that it Was a difficult task to put an end to that headlong career
It'in!urbanee by which Ireland had too long been distinguished ; but
,„;!,,i owed to the empire at large, and what he more immediately
te,ll%te that country, urged him
to this painful sacrifice of private
tyliz , and however he might regret the necessity, being assured that
. Alt r Were founded injustice,- he should vote l'or this measure.
:which
.__lters O'CONNOR expressed his indignation at the course
'that _um, trusters had adoPted. No evidence whatever had been given
a ,ne',!._ el lead to the confusion that the state of Ireland required such
an inTure.. Had any thing been advanced to impress on the mind of
woomtartial man the conviction that such a bill was necessary ? He
rais • "ldlY answer, " No." Ministers had for their own purposes
-ee the
am no _expectations of the people of Ireland to the highest pitch,
gra,e ti71..10r their ow.n purposes again, they were smothering in the
lierear'e 'lopes to which their conduct had given rise, and over which,
leatiier, the tears of repentance would assuredly fall. The him, and
from I,`Meirilier for Leeds, spoke of Mr. O'Connell receiving tribute.
man 2_B countrymen ; but Ini asked the hon. gentleman whether, if a
£ls,4i)e up a valuable possession that brought him in £14,000 or
anyii,,! a-Year ( " Oh, oh," and laughter)—well, X2.,0:10 or £l,OO0—
Ott „,_‘9 tfie house pleased; but he again aaked, whether a man was
the Irish to compensation under such eireunista.necs ? He calledn
rrian"'sh members to resist the bill ; and asked whether there wawa
the? l'au)Pg
ati4c those sitting on the benches around him who would not ra-
delifiiess on te Amer tan contaminate hi by signing the
res ?r h
ant of his country ?h (Great laughter.) Ile He asserted that the
-,, ;;L'`,'ltiteasure was only preparatory to the stab that was hereafter to
mei uto.ed on this country-, and besought members to look dispassion-
th -.3l„at the.euestion, before concurring in it. , he asked
c ri.,ht lion Sir awhetherit with such an act that he meant
to feti . • e c p.ry
Pon
anon the constitution, to defend it with bayonets and daggers—
Petier feeble guards compared with the affections of an insulted
ta' • ,
manner -mom, under the circumstances of the bill, and the peculiar
the , er in which it was calculated to apply to Ireland, would claim
r,,,,Vagence of the house. It was to him. a subject of particular p'oendegto.e obliged to Come to a decision. Connected with the inde-
interest he had always wished to extend the popular prin-
ciPle the '
az,, to . e utmost degree that was consistent with the constitution
te.,t, public safety ; beyond that limit he never had gone. He would
botteard!acritice practical security to theoretical advantage. He was
lane in conscience to state that the situation of some parts of Ire-
-1,„ ,
_as such, :Ind the intimidation so great, that the law could not
~;th'7,e,nforeed, and in those parts stronger measures were necessary ;
'ee circumstance should be so defined as to make it impossible to
rs.tnd the measure to unoffending districts. But in voting for the
the tlerfia(ling he held himself
'perfectly free to oppose or to modify
the e . alb'. He voted according to the dictat6s of his conscience at
eiliatxpense of his feelings. lie must observe, with respect to domi-
arid tflal'isita, he was of opinion that great caution should be used,.
to show t,,,, regulation should be made requiring the men of, the family
police ne.ntselves at the door, so as to render it unnecessary for the
his i_,°l' Military to enter houses. (Hear.) In conclusion he repeated
„are_ption to vote for the bill. intte•el.n.ay said that if the measure' was right in principle it should be
ueliti.atelysadopted, but if wrong it ought not to be passed at all.
eoerei'Xed 0 widely from the course of policy, whether remedial or
that lop' adopted by ministers in reference to Ireland—he conceived
easooy to be so ill adapted to allay disturbance, that he could not
lt.
,y be
himself to give his vote for the bill on this occasion.
able
thethat the speech of the right hon. Secretary, eloquent and
t.,';'' as it undoubtedly was had this defect—that it was directed to
~:,7_pa_ssions rather than to' the judgment of the house,—that it in-
ro,Zri_secaodrrielluesifoanta,l error of arguing from particular instances to a gene-
and proceeded on the assumed necessity of legislating
count tial views and grounds for the general interests of the whole
riesertrYen' Ile denied that this question was Irish—(hear, hear,)—he
that it was English,—vitally, essentially, English. W hy,
a resourcewould tot, was not Ireland, with its 8,000,000 of people, as great
wea us in peace as in battle ? Why was it now a source of
oughtnfea ? Instead of adding her 8,000,000 do our population we
great linideduct them from our numbers. Why were our taxes so
lion ? wtewas hecauie Ireland did not. contrthute her fair proprotr-
'"? It at was the remedy for the evils which overwhelmed I --
an ant It
.was to do justice to that country ; to make the union not
for ttir in name only, but in reality. It had been urged, as a ground
sortie s ?casure,—first, that an hon. and learned member meditated
Ndia-iti- eine of Irish independence ; secondly, that he had made a
841:0;,.. SPeeeh—(hear •) and, thirdly, a doggrel ballad. Notwith-
had i';`„°•g all the taunts 'with which that hon. and learned gentleman
hithe-rea 'visited, he had -et to learn that all his objects had not
he bel9,been granted-by die British Parliament (bear ;) and should
dress „N, that because that hon. and learned member did not ad-
of a "le nouse in good set phrases, and speak with all the softness
tion am-halting gentlewoman 'hear, and a laugh,)—for this indiscre-
ptibe eauoll Was tO sutiL•r 1 (Hear.) That was legislating, not on
and iee... but on party grounds. With all respect towards that hen.
tatiee.l,l gentleman he thought he was made of too muce impor-_
the eh, 'e Could -not but think that the collection of the renre of
asked cch had something to do with the measure of severity new
Lill, ht',4l.,_. (" Question.") Although he did not approve of the
I_ Afain'.B„,,nould not oppose the first reading. (A laugh. ) .
utalse''',,' oEaucufax said it had been admitted on both sides of the
raise hat the great cat.se of the evils of Ireland was the distress and
?thei.Y.s that unfortunate land ; and be would ask gentlemen.on the
oeen Ple °f the house why it was unfortunate ? Because
,it lead
441, il to°l Years misgoverned and mismanaged ; and they were pin, o
4eit ita caner injuries a wrong still greater than any. If the
_inmae
!a. twa,..aanction to such a scheme, he would regret he belonged to it.
1,11 ths''') The hill would turn the attachment of every honest man
+rish„- country into hatred ; and if he (Major Beauclerk) was an
theme '''4ll, he 'Should have that feeling engraved on his heart, and if
kr, Tasu'e Passed the house he would not obey it out of the house.
4cy (4-ENNaltn said that if he had had any doubt respecting the
.po-
lag ,n, this bill, that doubt would have been removed by the convnic-
Tre iree.ecli of the right lion. Secretary for Ireland last night. Th.ere-
noble --,„-,q)Ported thou.,,h reluctantly, the measure proposed bythe
'dead ru, and iia' dolna. so he thought he showed himself a warm
Lee e Ireland '''
at ther_e?.lotserroN was quite sure that the anxiety of his noble friend
loletir 'aat!, f the government of Ireland to delay having recourse tJ
`sge th au arbitrary measures was quite equalled by his anxiety to
lea °se measures 'spar:llol.y • and he verily believea that the know-
ejiti elOtie of his h- 'r, i;oss'essed of the power would operate hene-
tor 3', without nel -' -.' and induce • many to rally round the
e,..„._.us exercise,
berruent in support of order and for the protection ofand
katelh' (Hear, hear.) He was convinced that many who nt.ow,
wouldtea of terror and agitation which was in ope,ra ion,
bleat ~;nunediy show themselves, when the powers of the
acid
4ti of ere corroborated, and unite in maintaining the peace and se -
~ Ir. L. I:3' Fornmunity, (Loud. cheers.). .
an on „ 1- twRR rose amidst conflicting cries of " adjourn" and
''hich ' and moved the adjournment of the debate till
rto*-01-prrow—
kett 1.); after some observations from Lord
.Althorp, A . Connell,
i Petiti
• Baldwin, was carried without a division.
FRIDAY.
Al, b
Petitions were presented against the Irish Disturbance Bill
byy s;-•„;-). KIN flo• th Wallingford Political Union, and
of Mt 4'• NA GLUE from the parishes -of Castleton, in the county
ito,,,eata, and Kilbritten, in the county of Westmeath. Mr.
itig-o-f
tat
the Chamber of Commerce, Limerick, complain-
also tat maladministration of the corporation of that city;
Nit, Petition from the leather sellers of the same place, corn-
taaeti'lli of a tax levied on that article by the corporation, and
4011ap.ef from the-parish of Mr. Mary, Limerick, praying the
tttsh;-‘O.-itistitate an inquiry into the state of Ireland, previ-
. ' '' t° Passing
the coercive bill. -
kr BL ADJOURNED DEBATE. •
Was eLW ER would venture to make one suggestion, which
the' ~,""at if the amendment for deferring the introductioia of
thenTeasure. for a fortnight were agreed to, the house would
ha v- be enabled to ascertain the result of the assizes, and thus
heres ala
opportunity of knowing whether the grounds which
towf, Pnt forward as the apology for grunting extraordinary
kisteps t 0 the g -e government were correct. He did not think nit-
Ace's; were consistent in making use of the threat of quitting.
eoe,,e.' the event of their not being able to pass. the measure of
1'„1.°4. Such a threat might have been in place in former
.I)46,rt!.yilti,lietuotis,pboluitcyii! the present question became one not of
tit 7,-,EnauE GREY supporie., the bill. .
truth'n7• W. HARVEY did not mean to imply a doubt of the
1
etie "` the noble lord's case, or of the sincerity of his infe-
ad quoteest he would confidently maintain that the noble lard
nt 1:d ho case of atrocity or outrage in Ireland which had
er, eTe!l exceeded in England, not only in quality but in num-
er., tgad they heard of any capital (city) in Ireland as having,
ty of e,seene of such scenes of pillage and incendiarisin as-the
eard fi3rstol? (Hear.) What castle in Ireland had. tlie
f Isi °` as beine. consumed by the smoke of rebellion, like that
ottit, L
°se • fru'? What scenes of agrarian oppression equalled
orakilsil. alupshire, which had been the subject of a S
get
ne 'on, and which had called down the severest pupdish-
.i''' Pie law • they Hear, hear.) Exaggerate the cases ot out-
it '4 Ireland as would, they were far distanced in atro-
Y atm
ere, - number by those which had not long since occurred
ea,,,aud for which no man ventured to propose extraordinary
ill ;'r" of coercion. But it was idle to disguise the fact; the
110 'vas not aimed at the outrages of Ireland, but at one man,
;141 ministers found a thorn in their sides, and whom they
R" it thus easier to tyrannically oppress than meet an open.
ura
'th, ent—a. man who had done so much for his country, and
et.o exertion of whose unrivalled talents the very men who
t ,}l4o‘v endeavouring. to crush him were eminently indebted
Ii ten. present position—the learned member for Dublin. (A
t,gu, and " Hear.") He firmly believed, that but for the ex-
'44B„ of that learned gentleman, the Catholic Relief Bill
4 not now be the law of the land, and, as a consequence,
. kresent ministers could not have accepted office, th.ey hav-
% eta it to their honour spoke; refused to accept office till
Ita

'atiOP
area
n
PP.150
5 is

that measure should be proposed with the sanction of the ex-
ecutive. They, therefore; ought to feel grateful to the man
who had removed this great stumbling-block to their possession
of power and station. (A laugh.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL confessed that the measure before the
house was alarming and arbitrary in its nature, and that it
could not be adopted without pain by any one who had imbibed
a reverence for free institutions, and he regretted that it had
been imposed on ministers by a stern necessity. He was con-
vinced that by subduing insurrection, while they maintained, as
they ought, the authority of the laws and the dignity of the im-
perial crown of these islands, it would be confessed in the end,
even by those who were reluctant to own it now, that they had
been the best friends to the peace, the liberty, and the conse-
' quent prosperity of Ireland. (Cheers.)
Mr. H. GRATTAN agreed with the noble lord who hard just
sat down that the Whitefeet ought to be put down, but differed
from him in thinking-that the constitution ought to be put down
with them. (Hear.) Thtey must stretch forth every arm to put
down the Whitefeet, but they must also exert every nerve to
keep up the constitution. (Opposition cheers.) Thev talked
of -putting down prwdial agitation ; and to do this they were
about to deprive the Irish people of their just rights, (hear,
hear,) to remove, in fact, from those of whom they complained
any desire, any wish, to cultivate a feeling of quietude and con-
tent. (Hear, hear.)
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL supported the bill.
Sir ROBERT PEEL.—The right hon. gentleman and the noble
lord, had mentioned, (and he must say, that they had not been
contradicted in their statements,) details of outrages so atroci-
ous as to make the blood run cold. (Hear.) Were these facts
correctly stated or not ? Had murders been committed—had
threatening notices been sent—had burnings of houses taken
place in the manner and to the extent recounted ? There
could be no doubt in the mind of any reasonable man on the
subject. Before he heard the statements of the noble lord and
right hon. gentleman he drew his own conclusion as to the

state of Ireland, from those generally notorious facts of which
every man accustomed to refer to the ordinary channels of
information must be aware. He there saw the subject of the
condition of Ireland amply described; he saw statements of
' outrage made, and no attemps at contradiction, which must
have followed had those statements been incerrect ; and from
all he had seen, his impression was, that the ordinary operation
of the law in Ireland was not sufficient for the'protection of
the peaceable and innocent, and the suppression of public dis-
orders. But he did not rest his conclusion merely on the tes-
mony of newspapers or general notoriety, or the details men-
tioned by the right hon. gentleman. He had no access to
offiCial documents, but he would read from undisputed authority
some of those general statements as to the condition of Ireland
which had carried more conviction to his. mind than even the
transactions detailed by-His Majesty'Oministers. He would
first take the allegations of a judge of the laud—he alluded to
Baron Sir Wm. Smith, who was sent by the government to try
prisoners at the Lent assizes of Maryborough, in 1832. This
was the picture whiCh the learned judge drew of the state of
the country at that period in his charge to the grand jury of
the Queen's County. The address was published in the official
records of the house, having. been added in an appendii to the
report from the select committee on the state oflrelana, which
was published in August. Baron Smith commences his charge
thus:—" find here a calendar consisting of 150 cases: of
these 12 a..re charges of murder, 6 of conspiracy to murder, 9 of
manslaughter, 11 of rape, 5 of child-murder and its appurten-
ants, 11 of abduction, 41 of housebreaking, assaulting dWell-
ings, and robbery of arms, 9 of shooting at persons, 2 of
adiniuistering. unlawful oaths, and 22 of violent assaults!'
That was the detail of the atrocities committed in one county
of Ireland, and to be tried at those assizes. Had these remarks
been falsified—was that list of crime contested, or did it admit
of contradiction ?• (Hear, hear.) Take the testimony of another
gentleman, a Roman Catholic priest, with no undue influence
upon his mind, to lead him to exaggerate the unfortunate con-
dition of the county. In a letter addressed to Lord de Vesci,
by the Rev. Nicholas O'Connor, parish priest of Maryborough,
and quoted in Mr. O'Connor's evidence before the committee,
the following passage occurred :—" In vain have we waited in
hopes of the retuining good sense of the deluded, and have
found, on the contrary, the well-disposed compelled, by intimi-
dation, to join the ihegal societies, or murdered or terrified
out of the county." (Hear.) He should only refer to one
other piece of testimony in reference to this subject, because
he thought that the multipication of undisputed and indisputa-
ble statements, all tearing on the one point, was of no use. The
last testimony, then, to which he should direct the attention of
the house, as completing the picture, was that of Dr. Doyle,
Roman Catholic Bishop .of the diocess of Kildare and Leightin.
He did not now say what might be right or wrong to be done,
but they were agreed es to the facts, and that a more alarming
state of society, established on testimony the most unquestiona-
ble, had never existed? (Cheers.-) What, then, was the course
-to be pursued ? Were the ordinary powers of the law sufficient
to repress the distiirbances stud mileages that pevailed ? No
man alleged that they were; but. every man expressed a desire
to curb the disturbances. How was that to be effected ? BY a
. measure such as the present ? It was for the house to decide
the question. It was not necessary to go into the details Of the
bill on this occasion. (Hear.) Depend upon it the established
orders and regulations of the house, which were .respected in
theory, but, he was sorry to gay, too frequently violated in prac-
tice, rested on good grounds. By those regulations the discus-
sion of details was reserved for au advanced stage of a measure
(the principle being first decided on), and the result was a bet-
ter elucidation of truth, and a more satisfactory accomplish-
ment of the ends of justice. (Hear.) He now proceeded to
deal with what appeared to him to be the main objections urged
against the measure. But, first, he must observe, that there
was one truths which he was faF from contesting, namely, that
this bill was in itself no remedy for the permanent evils of Ire-
land. At the same time that he felt the necessity of this mea-
sure, with a view to repress outrage and disturbance, he candid
ly admitted that he viewed the general condition of the country
for which as he had said before, the bill afforded no remedy,
with the utmost degree of anxiety and apprehension. He la-
mented to see such party animosity and agitation as now dis-
turbed Ireland. Looking at the state of the country, he per-
ceived an increasing population and another evil re-acting ou
and re-producing the first-7namely, a low scale of comfort, want
of employment,—want of the usual conveniences and comforts
of life. (Hear.) It was because the people were contented
with little and inferior food, and because employment was scanty,
that they were not discouraged from contracting early marri-
ages,•the source of an increased population. The two evils
went on reacting on and re-producing each other, and the only
check consisted in a deficiency of potatoe crop. For that state
of things this measure contained no remedy. (Hear, from
some Irish members.) Who said it did? (Cheers from the
ministerial benches.) But the present state of disorder pre-
cluded the application of any remedy. (Renewed cheering.)
He repeated, this measure was no remedy for the original evil,
hut it put an end to a state of things the continuance of' which
would be inevitable destruction. (Hear, hear.) As to the
original evil, look at the state of the relations subsisting be-
tween landlord and tenant in Ireland. He was aware that he
differed from the vast majority as to some of the remedial mea-
sures proposed to be applied. He heard, night after night, at-
tempts made to trace the evils to the existence of tithes and to
the exactions of the clergy. (Hear.) No, no; those were not
the sources of the evils that afflicted the country (cheering};
and though an extinction were effected of the legal rights of the
clergy, the evils would continue, if the rights of which they
should be deprived were transferred to the landlords (Hear,
hear.) The first step towards remedying the evils and remov-
ing the disorders of Ireland consisted in Parliament getting at
the truth. Do not let us offer up unoffending men, who were
already despoiled of their rights, as sacrifices for the election's
of others—such a sacrifice would not suffice. He applied to it
the words of Lord Bolingbroke on the trial of Sacheverell,
which were equally true of the attacks now made on the clergy,
and of their probable result—" they made a fire to roast a per-
son, but they made it so hot that they burned themselves:" He
asked whether gentlemen had read the evidence on the subject
of tithes? Ile referred them to the testimony
.of Mr. John
Walsh, a Roman Catholic magistrate—he liked Roman Catho-
lic evidence in such a caso--for an exculpation of the clergy.
Mr. Walsh- was conversant with the condition of the lower
classes of his countrymen, and his testimony showed that the
miserable state of that vast class of farmers who occupied
farms of ten acres was attributable, not to the exactions of the
clergy, but to the misconduct of the landlords. (Hear.) Let
those gentlemen who talked of the exactions of the clergy,
and thought that the evils that afflicted Ireland flowed from
tithes, and consequently that the "healing;" measure for their
abolition would accomplish all that was necessary to be done
in that country, let them look at the evidence of Mr. Walsh.
lie states that the majority of persons under the class of
farmers of the county of Kilkenny are people holding from
10 to 15 acres of land; that they are generally in the greatest
state of destitution from about the month of April to the month
of September. Farmers in that class have no means of meeting
the demands made upon them but by their crop, and from the
time the sale of the crop takes place till the next crop they are
destitute of every means of obtaining money. Potatoes gene-
rally, without either milk or meat, constitute 'their diet, and they
consider themselves very lucky if they have enough of them.
In answer to the question whither the people consider them-
selves well off if they made two rents out of their crop, Mr.
Walsh replied, that he considered a farmer, by converting land
to the best purpose, might make double the rent; but he did