Star.
London, England, 1824-02-21 00:00:00

Mr..Seseetary . said, that haunter
of the Consmissi might have been, there was ttW a Breit to
their labours. They bad certainly proved themselvee ezgliOttel7
fad whilst the period of their invesdeatlant lasted but it ka:gibeshergi
t:lt:at the advantage to be derived from presseseirag
would not be an adequate compensation for the expense
ettendit4 it. It was therefore deemed inenredieot that the CO"lnlii'
iiebould la* any looter, and it had in fact ternanated on the BM
his,month. With respect to the second rimer lb* flight ne-
Ileurable Baronet, he bad only so'obiaries do Ottawa had been
likbes to give considerable Abet to the mreeenntatient of the Co..
Mbelswers, and that eotaddatabbt blifflograillalsbad i» solaseimence
taken place in the Cavort of Cbaneeleit for MatteFles no fees but
those authorised by law meld now ire taken. lii the other Courts
there also had been several alterations for the better, and very con-
' siderable progress bud been made towards equalizing the seak of
fees in an the PAPA ekes. That were his minters to tie pie•
ries put to b(m bid. light Honourable Baronet ; and be had no
doubt that ha a Very dos time all the &Oakum to the meaner in
which the gerbiblimposa was carried so in the Law Coots in
Ire-
land would be obviated.
Sir JOHN trurrowr said, that there were certain points
' epon which he understood the Lord Chancellor bad, in jinn,- ex- ,
pressed it aside opinion that the intetvention of Parliamesteventski
be necessary. He did not know whether the experience of three
years had Induced his Lordship to change his opinion; but be was
still inclined to believe that much was required to be done before
the Wee eapremed by thißigtat Hon. Secretary could be answered..
Mr: facestary NIEL elmerved, that the recommendation of die-
Commissioners. priodyelly referred to the regulation of fees, And
upon this subject that reeommendation had been substantially ear;
tied into effect.
Dr. LUSHINGTON presented a Petition against the t)uty on
Coals.
ARMY ESTMATES.
Upon the motion of Lorsl PALM ',Arrow, the House
resolved itself into a Committee of Supply upon the
Army Estimates.
Lord PALMERSTON commenced by observing,
`that anybody who looked at the Estimates of this, as
compared with those of the last your, would perceive an
liugmentation of six new regiments,of 200 men to.each
of the three Veteran Battalions,which augmentation was,.
of course, attended by an additional charge. The aug-
mentation consisted altogether of 4,560 Officers and men,
and the attendant increase of charge would be 158,0001:
•lout from this he had, since the estimates were first pre-
pared, discovered that a deduction could be made to
the amount of 55,0001. the particulars of which he would
',explain as he went along, which deduction, would re,
'duce the amount 'of additional charge to tile snm -nt
108,0004 Having called the-attention of the Commit-
tee to the augmentation of force, it might, perhaps,
be expected that he should- assign the reasons which
had induced his Majesty's Ministers to deem such aug-
mentation necessary.. lie then could without hesitation
state, that it did us arise from any apprehensions cim
the part of Government that the peace of Europe would.
be disturbed—(Hear, hear).—lt did not arise, he re'
peated, from any supposition that the country would be.
engaged in foreign wars. It arose solely fiom the 'pre-
sent state of our West India Colonies—(Hter,
and in the 'necessity which Ministers saw for keeping up
a larger force, in that part of his Majesty's dominions
under atisting• circumstances, be- was sure thc
would concur. Having thus stated shortly the grounds
upon which his Majesty's Ministers 'Adjudged such-an,
-increase of force netteswy„ heshould, perhaps, best dis-
charge his duty and meet the wishes of the Muse by
ahitanting,freinlootaring further into the details of
subject which wOrinumting old itaßomust in. naffs
•
and well entitled to separate srecrive consideration,
but could not, with propriety be , a,sulsjfet of toile-.
terahliscussion upon that oesasitto. lit the arriingemente
which accompanied thoangasentation_, to- whiehlie had
alluded, it had been the object &Government to conduct
everything upon-the most *Compiles' scale. ffiverytkii-
cer.who had been appointed. to the six new iegiments
was selected from, those upon the half;pay list, amine.
a single individual transferred Imo the existing legi-
t men;s by promotion—(f eon bear),—lt• was not, indeed,
without a painful sacrifice of feeling upon the part of
Government and the Commander-in-Chief that this,
regulation was.adheted to. .It.. would undooktedly have
been most gratifying to them could they have availed
themselves of the opportunity to live protivetion to fieve•
reel meritorimuCtfrwers who had dutinguished themselves ,
during-the war,aad.whosinGe the pasce had been eta-pilp
serviceable to their country in less distinguished botavore-
irksome services in distant Colonies; but•while GiVlthlll.
meat would have been happy to rewardthent, they, felt.
they bad a pare mount.duty.to perform in attest diag to.the
clainuthat the country had tvontlisicitforretrenotmente
-Li. had., _Own. been otilectesi to Government that
they increased their establishments and: kept up a large
army far theipurposee of pittroneges He trusted the
,time for making such a charge was now gone by ; but
if at any future omit should be repeated, be-had:only
to refer those who 'made the allegation to the fact be
bad just detailed, and-they would -find in their fact• as
sufficient answer. to the. charge,. To ,reat rn Att.*, ESti•.,
mates. To meet•aa-augmentatioa of 3800 *ikon aady
men, which was the complement -of• the six new .regi-
, ments, an additional charge of 17%0001. was required.
This was, however, counterbalanced by a saving itt the.
half,pay to the amount of 18,0001. Some ?tdditiesid
expense would be incurred by regimens returologfroin
India which last year were no their.voyage,.aud there-
fore supported by the East India.Comps.ny, tan which
regiments on their return would, of course,.. become
chargeable to 'the country. In the Strain. Ireland an
additional. charge. of S9o9liwas intuited in.comiqueoce-
of the appointment of another General Offiker. Id the
public department there wase.dirolautioa.a( eltarge.to
the amount of 80001; and- in the medical.decartsneat of
884 L In that of the.lralunteer Corps,.theYariatiottwes
trifling its compared with last year. With respect to the
third class of estimates, there Was,. assanwpated, with
thole- of -last year, a diminution to. the amount of
WO% which, added to the sum of 550004 to. whirl
be alluded before, made a tail' decrease to the amount
of. 840000 k In the Military College there was a reduc-
tion of 165E.—(Hear, front. Mr. Hesse.)—ln dm-army
pay of General Officers there had been a reduction of
13,0061. In the full-pay of Retired O 1 tees. of 18001:
This item he (Lord Palaseirstoo) thought he thoild4
itbk, in consequence et proposed alteratiain, to redeasin
further sum of-10,0001. The-Garrisons were in the
es fang year,.. la tee, Malt pay and Ml OTT
*wawa the bad, berm a diminution of 17,0001.i'
les oempated with last year ; bit-in these he eapeoted to
he able to make a further redaction" totheameasst•W
ii.47.40.00a1 la. site amount of:Foreign. Haiti),
dun bad besais reduction of 9.7904. In. the ens Pi
shows of Chew% gaol. Ifiltklesptet to thalnif
Abusers of Kilinainhans and Chelmay dse• char"
Item amtsaittedneady the. same as last year, jis.
queues of some adaitkod. dissents having b
rated from regiments returned from India.

,

, Exchn- I._
-
state is last year. The Veteran - _ had _
creased by the addition of 0611, the idditional charge
for which we; 19,0001. Thus the total augmentation
was 46e0 men, the additional charge 138,0001• which'
diminished by $6,0001. left only an increase of 108,0001.
Now,. against this he had to put i sous of 63,0001.- paid
to Government by Ws East India Company, for which
the Chancellor of the Exchequer woOld gore him (Lord
Palmerston) credit, as it was fairly applicable to his es-
timates. Thus this sum of 65,0001 being deductedfrom
103,00 W. it would be seen that the ix additional Regi-
ments would only cost the country 40,0001.7-(Hear,
hear). The Noble Lord concluded by Moving—o That
a number of men, not exceeding 73,000, •ibould be
granted to his Majesty for the service of the year 1824."
Mr. HUME said, thatin his opinion the Noble Lord
came with a very bad grace to 2sk the House for an
increase of force, when he recollected the manner in
which they were induced to consent to an addition last
year. Upon that occasion it was explicitly declared
that no further addition to the grant of 69,000 men
was contemplated, and it was upon that untlerstandiog
that the Oopositioo had consented to waive their objec-
tions. The Noble Lord May recollect -the language
which was held by himself and his colleagues upon that
occasion. To 'the objections that were urged against
the necessity of such a force 'is time of peace, their
reply *as —.4 Look at the Continent; see Prance
about to invade Spain, and will you refuse us the
means of meeting the probible consequences of such
a procedure ?"—Under what different circumstances
did the Noble Lord now come before the House, and
upon what different grounds did he apply for as in-
' crease of force ? The very circumstance; alluded
to in the, course of the Noble Loral's speech were in
his (Mr. Hume's) opinion, the strongest argument
noose him. He said there was no fear of was abroad,
Issuljet he demanded a considerable increase of forte;
154.
a erable increase, he repeated • for although the
Lord might affect to undervalue an increase of
he (Mr. Murat) would tell hint that the cousea7
4sid nor. The manner in which- Ministers went on in-
creasing the military establishment of the country was
indeed alarming. During several years after the Arne-
riotsa war, the military force of the country amounted
only. to 33,000 men, although we had then neither Mi-
litia nor Yeoman; y. Yet now we had a regular force
of seventy-duce thousand men, eaclasive of the Artillery
and Mai inn, to say nothing of the Militia- and Yeo-
manry, of whom there were in. togland and Ireland
tieventy.seven thousand of the former, and seventy-
four thousand of the latter,, liable to be called out
whenever Ministers pleasah When he considered all
the circumstances of our present situation; when he
considered' die little fear there was of hostility from
abroad; and the state of tranquillity-which we-enjoyed,
and which we were libelo to continue. to enjoy at home,
'he really thought it a, mots. entraordinary proposition
upon the 'pert of the Noble Lord. to snake any apish,.
cation for such• an increase of' fivrem -Had not the
'lliglu. lionourable. S-nreraryi opposite (-Mr, Caturiog)
declared that. Moot was no; oleo, of any. baffle move-
ment with reference toifoosinn, Poswirts.?' Btit even if
the; e.were, it might allwd. a- reason. for iticroising adis-
polable foreolikes the 3livo,.bet.not for any hicreasein.
our Militaro Eatehlishments, which actually aethe pre►
sent, moment; including- the different Indies-ha had all.
ready mentioned; contahnta a Wee- of no- less thOn
233,1)00 men,. ready tolse_calledou at a moment's warn.
i ngs To. aiew whalittla umwssity there. misted. for this.
increase of force, he had only to refer to the King's,.
Speech. on the opening of. Parlleavene, itt which hefound
the followiog.elptesoons :.1. At no former period has,
thereprevailedithrooghout all-classes of the.conununity
in this island a more clivessful spirit: of order, or a.twom
just sense of the-advantiges which; coder Peowlonsolk
they enjoy,"-.-Thus, if Ministers. were to be believed-..
and he did mot on this OCCOSIOII-1114411 to deny the pal.
tioo—therewas.no.indication of any disturhed.spirit in
this kingdom which called-for an- increase of military
power. WWI respect. to Ireland, he had only to refer
p, an9ther.paa of:lus Majostes Speea,,toprese thatoll
was, tranquil there tooa—" In ketands which, has for
some time. past- been. thesubjece of his Majesty's parti-
cular solicitude, there are many indications (kennel&
meat."—T.hunitid lii*Meiestykaud,sure hejttlt. Home)
tosts•-thot it was not hreoeroisemeastres that tranquil-
lity was to be restored to that country. Military coep
cion had Rapt long- triedithere:;:but. instead of producing
any. good.effaro; it had- only leriesi. to ii ritate and ha,
lame the passions. of thropeoples ft was time to try a
milder method, which was the ainle•one- that, kr his opi-
nion, would be found-to.seeme4 and-thus, instead of
increasing, he thought Ministers ousht.to•diminish, the
military force in that part. of tholsingdorn—(lfear.)--
He had formerly, in. speaking-of Ireland, used the word
-disaffected ; but heltadseen ample reason to,cbangp
this Opinion. The people of behind yielded to no other
hi affection .fortheir King—their disaffection. was to a
Goreentnast which. had always ruled them. with the.
strongland•Of I power, and- who, when by that. . -
they-had Aiten a temporary. check to those evils which'
woe the inevitable consequences of raissovernmost,
had never. bosewthe Moment of tranquillity to. hives•
tigate•-into their causes. But if- the Hoosershould.cou.
tinue to supply Ministen-with. theciverwhelming force
'which they called-for, it was natural that they, should
Adopt what they. coaceived"tha easiest meanso and rule
by, intimidation and not conciliation. The.Speeth went
on to state, that "'His-Mej.esty had-noreoson to believe
that the. progress of oar internal prosperity and an.
ptovemeat would be: disturbedtby any. interruption of
treaquillity from abroad, and- that he•continued to re-
ceive from the Powers his Allies, and from all Nixes
lend totes, assurances of their earnest desire' to main.
ns
tain•and -cultivate the relatio- of- friendship with his
rnejesty, and that nothing waionsitted cet his Majesty's
art, as. welt to preserve' general peace, as to remove
y causes • of' disagreement, , and to draw closer the
bonds °Comity. *wino other illations and `(;Fiat Bei.
rain." Now after this .deciaratiesa on the part of his
Majesty and-his Ministers, he. Mb: Hamel would ask,
the alleged by. thy Noble Lord was stsiffolem
toasiborizeGovernsasot not,tocallfor any additlheali
forces but to heap up tbrestaldiehment oldest yeleorte-
witifns ten thousand men- or that establishment?", Ber
what was the reason .alleged by.the Nbbit L0rd.64.01
'dissorboacm in the. Wes; gsdiost Surely, out of dill"
• . -____ —X cas.Allel ana....three could be,flOsad'air''

ient to left& these. had It;
uses of there dirtuubanceil
continue, or were they to 1

ire theqi
reloote4

be a the ec
m goalies. sad we Vete rut
t. . ast be thought
not to
tl
Xacetteelenti, the bounden duty of Ministers to
out, and fairly end honestly tell what their in.
were with respect to these,lslands. He did rot
them to violate their engagements with the Co.
neither did be wish to writate the whole po.
-..00 of the Islands. But the question, he con-
tended, ought not to be left to supposition. Minlitert,
'he repeated, ought to speak out, and say either--
"_Vire will or we will not Merate the slaves"—(year).
If they sit otherwise, the greatest mischief will be the
probable result. The slaves will iassigiee from their
silence that they have something to espect. They will
become the dupes of designing men ; and that there
were such in these islands recent events too fully proved ;
thus the safety of the whole population, white and
black, will become endangered. Thus, with cremate
to the %Vest India Islands, it was, he contended, idle to
talk of this increase of force being necessary. If
sisters did their duty towards these islands, they could'
quell the disturbances there without the addition of a
single man; and if they must have troops, there were, he.
repeated, enough, and too many already. He thought,
indeed, it was by no means unreasonable to ask the
Noble Lord to reduce eight or 19,000 men from
the establishment of last year, instead of calling on 'the
country for an additional number. He (Ht. Hume)
remembered perfectly well, and be believdd those
around him.remembered also (he did not know she' •
then the other side thought upon the subject at all) •
—(a laugh.)--that it was in consequence of represents.
tions of the necessity of meeting the probable consc.
quences of the war between Prance and Spain, that the
Opposition were prevented front moving an amend meat
to the vote of last year—(Hear). Now, therefore, be
thought the country had every right to claim a re•
demon s even if there was a probability of a war
on the Continent, he should not consider it a reason for
increasing our military estilliliskinent. He hoped in
GOD no British soldier would ever land again upon the
continent of Europe. We had taken too much pains to
render ourselves a Military Power, for which oar
situation rendered us unfit, and he trusted we might at
length see our error. Upon the whole it was his opinion,
that the amount called for by the Noble Lord ought to be
reduced from 73,000 to 63,006 which were amply suffi-
cient for all purposes in-the present state of our affairs. He
called on the House to reducethe military establishment.
The Government, he contended, was a civil one, and
was never intended to become a military Government.

Taking all classes of people in the community now, it
would ,be found that in some way or other they were
eonneeted with the military estgblishissent of the country.
But it the military were reduied the Noble Lord would
my, 4, What will become of the Colonies r—With se.
,spect to the simner inwhieb the accounts were got up,
it was very extraordinary. Although the Fetimatei
had-not been presented more than three days, they were
discovered to be wrong in ieveral items. The House
ought not to have things brought on in so loose a man-
lier. The Noble Lord had'no muse whatever to offer,
inasmuch as the accounts were only made up to the
end of December, and there had been abundance of
time since thee to have them accurately framed.. It
was, however, but justice to say. that *this the last few
years a great improvement had taken place in the pre-
paration of the public accounts. Nntwititstanding, there
waa giU peat. room for improvedtent. The Noble
Lord had- only got Mar war inr what might be done. •
The Estimates. were nearly the unit in amount as
they were in 1812. In. that yaw the Avant' were
18,1081,0001. this year they were about .180561,03U—
.He (Mr. Home) meant to ineltade the navy espenses
also in- those sums. Sham there were between thirteeo
and' fburteen millions annuallyespended in this mermen.
In 1822 the military eapenditsue amounted Loth.. sunk
,of 7,000,6901. and, last year (101111) it was 8,046,000/.
Let the House compare this with the peace ditabliJk-
ivilmit-of 17'86, at which period the Anmy cPoWWSKI, of
'only thittr.threethousandmen. Am the presses time it
was contemplated to keep up a Militarrforoe ie Eng-
land and kelaad- alone Much greatetihan.the whole.
Army in 1792. Thew were-tern twenty thousand men
stationed' in &gland. sod'tweutptwe *viand in Ire,
land. These were upwattle of ' 641 thousand. Foot
Guards, and six thousand are hundred Cavalry. Why
were not these/strove ammorted illy444P*Oble forces?
Tholtioisle Losd says-that he wawa men.for tbs. West
Indies. He (Mr. Wee) would ask -why not reduce
the Foot Guardsood Omit/. in order:that a.force might
,be-substituted- the-Westindiesl- Let the period of
1792 be taken as an example Ayr one establish-
ment. Then Ireland was considered suNciensly prosentad,
as far as military force. was crneerneel, with melee
thousand men. At it was not intended tO make the
measures permanent one, with. regard *to kbe• creeps
which were to be sent to the Weshlesdies, why not take
some men from the stadiesed,in thia country?
But. Wit wore intended to beep up Immo& forte in ttlhsee
West Indies, it would be rnaels.beeme fee this country
not to have anything to dep. with. the premed= of the
property in those islands, but leave them to do thelpest
they could ; for he was convinced, if it. were► rapthite
to keep a powerful- army there, no good would be ef.
fecsed to the pro ' thereby, but that their min
num. inevitably fitl of .So lcogass state Of irritable
lity was cherished, if the people were.to be kept coo.
stantly in arms, theestateecoold not herniates& Bur,
.in his opinion, if there vras.an maim to that irritation
which had latterly unhappily prevailed in the West Indies,
not asinglesoldier would be required. And even was the
measure proposed a temporary one, why could not three
or four thousand men be spared from Great Britain ?
He was as anxious as any Honourable Member in that
House, that the interests of Great Britain should ever
he preserved ; and be was persuadetthat by calling on
the llibuse to reduce her standing, army instead of in-
,'ht, he was best consukiog ha true interests. The
ember then referred to the Report of a Commits
Wee which sat in 1817, to inquire into the state of the coon-
itry. Seeing the opinions ef this Committee were in favour
' of economy, he had hoped it would have made a morels's-
ins impression than it appeared to have done:, It was es•
teedingly desirable to return to the establithmentof 1792+
Let That period be contrasted with the present. Then
about 33,000 men was Alike military required for the
preservation of our safety ; and now the House was called
on to vote for 78,000 regular troops, being an increase
of 40,000 troops. NosWisfactory reasons had been given
for the proposed increase is the establishments and he
tsd therefore pse an Amendment. The Noble
had taken credit foe the sum if money pid to
rernment by the Bast India Company (63,00( this
[pent would naturally have been paid, had not the Noble
Lord mentioned it. He bad notbisig mote to do whit it
than he had with the Tax upon Wools; of whlcK the
House bad just heard so much. It was an t
made between the East India •Consgaog mid nd

•
poimed to inquire- into We guises ip ibeiCOurt*iii law in . 1014 Militati Asylum. the dimisveion antesatti4a4 sai. dto I
was still in existence. atnt *4 I°lol eirlct ILIPOI lii tbs Widows' -Peados shwa had been an in-- speak ui
Ow 1* reeillpenstatiest dates et to the 'WS _r •
muse U. PROM and hasp Coaireionnte Lig, Bounty It was, I
ais iker 1r be misspelt m* bad dri IT litin
pares lintk to the awn sorseardo. of three Tow eats, And Pensions fee Vittemslb, there had been speak a
, undet sonsiderstienv ad. be iris desirous, 10 iklidt4 Ndlethet Pla alf4 alkilliaeaSe to the advent-of 641001. In the super- telations
r4r 111° 4•41." °Cal° °lbw C°6llB of 1011 b" takflaigil"P° bonaation Allowances, -shire bad been an incase of want du
1 remedy the abuses complained ofs
valuable ordeal "ASV The Exchn-quer Fees remained in the same lonists, I
"id* _that .hrT___.4ll . %a.m.. state as last year. MI Veteran Battalions had been in. -paletioe
Din swum MIL
_ . •