Star.
London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

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future exigency. The queftiott of the Navy ells -
blithment has been mixed with the confideration of
the Army ; and I think ftrangely. It feems to be
taken as a matter of courfe, Otat you mutt have a
large army becaufe yon have so,coo feamen.—
Now, it appears to me, that the conclufion fhould
be dire my the reverie. It operates two ways.—
You need employ fewer foldiers for your defence,
becaufe you have augmentc4 your navy ; and the
additional expellee by fea, is an argument for ad-
ditional economy in the cflablithment of land-
forces. There is a way, too, in which a large
army eftablifhment may be raifed ; and it is
hitherto unnoticed. Is there no con ftitutional
confideration al iling from a large (landing Army.
A (landing army without confent of Parliament,
is illegal ; with the approbation of Parliament, it
may flillbe dangerous. I do not mean to fay that the
officers of the army are not friends to ,the confli-
tution of their country. But confider the fource
of influence which the army 'Affords ; there is lcarce
a Gentleman in this Houft, but by himfelf, or fome
relation, who has not fome to look to in the army.
I do not fay, that this influence is pared to carry
a particular vote ; but its effects in procuring a ge-
neral fuppor t to the meafures of adminiliration is
obvious. I would not, howevt exclude officers of
the army from fitting in Parliament, that would
.4 render the ex worfe, becaufe it would too much
1 feparate the charader of foldier and citizen. How
is an army to be viewed, as foldiers diftinet, or as
citizens forming a part of the country ? In the one
cafe they may have no fympathies with the people ;
in the other, they may in the exercife of civil privi-
legesgive a dangerous preponderance in an election,
for inttance, to any fide they might efpoufe ; but in
fad they are to many purpofes already, and wifely fo,
put under a controul different from their fellow-fub-
je&s. To thefe remarks,however,the naval ellablifh-
ment is not fubjed, and for that reafon I agree with
the Hon. Gentleman, Mr. Wilberforce, that the
. naval eftablifliment is on that account lefs liable to
objeilion, while it affords us all the fecurity we can
have againft the danger, magnified as it has been.
There is another view of thelqbjed* which, though
not avowed, is perhaps entertained by fome. It
may be thought right to have a large ellablifhment,
in order to go to war immediately, or very foon;
certainly, if we were to go to war in a month or
two, it would be idle to reduce our eftablifhments.
I can judge of Minifters only from their words and
their adions, The Chancellor of the Exchequer,
if I rightly underftood, faid a few nights ago, that
he taw no danger to the peace of Europe at pref.:nt ;
and the Secretary .at War to-day (poke out dd.
tindly, candidly and laudably. He faid it was
our bufinefs to be armed againft any danger.—
He and I differ as to the extent to which we
thould be armed; but he lays, that we (hould pro-
voke no war, that we fhould commit no aggretlion,
that we fhould execute the Treaty of Amiens, and
that we fhould repel any infult or aggreffion with
firmnefs and dignity. This is my creed. Is it pro-
bable, then, that the aggreffion may come from
France? My Right Hon. Friend '(General Mait-
land) gave a very-ugly realonwhy the Peace (hould
be agreeable to the late Secretary at War, becaufe
the iPirit of the country was become warlike ;
whereas if the war had continued the Table would
have been loaded with Petitions againß it. This
is rather a fufpicious argument, becaufe it feems
to fay, that we have only got rid of the bad war
which could not be continued, in order to get an•
other more acceptable. My. Hon. Friend himfelf,
I am lure, rejoices in the Peace, and does not with
to begin the war on a new fcore. But in fad,
every thing convinces me, more and more,
that the people are decidedly for peace. Gen-
tlemen, however brave and warlike in their lan
guage, always conclude with laying, neverthe-
lefs I am for peace !" They naturally wills to Rand
well with their Conftitiients, and they do not fail
to utter a fentiment they know willibe agreeable to
them. Much has been faid. of the tone we ought
to airtime, but what is the object to which all this
tends ? My Honourable Friend, Mr. Sheri-
dan, with much humour alluded to thofe who
with their arms acrofs, and their arms a-kimbo,
would fit • Rock Rill, notwithltanding all their
complaints againft France. Now whether my
Honourable Friend could fit Rock Rill, with
his arms acrofs, or his arms a kimbo, I cannot tell :
—he does little more than leave the tongue at li-
berty and recommends you to acquiefce in peace,
after a Miller (here Mr. Fox imitated the kluiler,) at
proceedings with which we are not to interfere.
—lt has been faid, indeed, that a remonftrance
has been prefentedrefpeding the attack on Switer-
land. I know not whether in precife ciroum-
fiances or manner of that remonftrance it was
proper, though I have no reafon to believe that it
was not. Remontlrances may be prefented in
cafes where no war is deemed expedient, even if
the remonftrance be ineffedual. This happened
in the cafe of Cornea in the year 1769. As to
philippics, litre we mull have philippics to keep up
the national fpirit. I am very willing, that they
be taken into account as provifion for our fecurity,
but I hope that 30,000 men will in lieu of them
be deduded from our eftablifhments. But if we
are to have the 30,000 into the bargain 1 do not
fee what benefit they will produce. If danger
really did appear—if invafion aaually were ef-
feded, every feeling would be abforbed in thofe of
repelling the invader, from the fovereign motive
of felf-defence ; fo thit all the declamation which
was to nourifh the fpirit of the nation, would be
fruitlefs and unneceffary.
Mr. Fox, after many other obfervatiOns, which
we are compelled to omit, remarked upon the
conduit of Mr. Pitt's friends in calling for him to
the Miniftry; after he had not only recommended
the prefent Minifter as molt fit to be his fitcceffor,
after be had approved the peace. He afked how
Mr. Windhim,LordTemple,&c. could exped Mr.
Pitt or themfelves to return to Adminiftration, if
the Catholic queftion was the real cattle of their;
refignation ? He juftified party connexions when
the objet was honourable, and treated with jug
contempt the cant of not only men but meafures,
frequently a mere cloak for apoßacy on the molt
interefted views. He dwelt with feverity on the
conduet of thole who, merely in purfuit of place,
arraigned the conduit of the prefent Minifters, and
I &owed the ineonfiftency of Mr: Pitt's friends in j

. . .
•• • .
fupporting them They eta as kr. VAlber
force had raid, damn-With faint praife. They did
not praife. They did fneet, and teach others to
fneer.
Mr. SHERIDAN role to explain. He laid, that a
Briti(h army kept up in time of peace Was certain-
ly a great evil'; but aFrench army hovering round
our coafts WIIS a flill greater evil. With regard to
his (peaking difielpeafully of Bonaparte, he was
perfeEtly aware of the irritable temper of that au
guff perfimage; but the duty he owed his country
was greater than any fear he might have of fpeak
ing his fentimettts freely. With regard to dilaf-.
feCtion among Iri(hmen, the fate of Switzerland,
he believed, would be fufficient to warn them
.againft placing any dependance on France. His
Hon. Friend had faid, that the feizure of Switzer-
land was no realon for encreafing our Military
Eftablifliment. To that he would anfwer, in the
words of Demonlienes, who, when he was urging
the Athenians to declare war againft Philip, told
them, that that ambitious Monarch was over-run-
ning and feizing upon every fmall State imme-
diately within his reach, with the view of ultimately
making himfelf mailer of Athens, and:its territory.
Mr. WINDHAM faid he thould not have troubled
the Houfe at that hour, were it not for the fend-
ments which fell from fume Gentlemen who had
gone before him. The Hon. Gentleman, who
fpoke laft, had (hewn an earneft defire to preferve
peace with the French Republic, of which he was
called the apologia. For his own part, however,
he fhould call him the pinegyrift; and he would
appeal to every one who heard him, whether tint
Hon. Gentleman had not, at the beginning of the
French Revolution, delcribed it as the perfection
of human wifdom, and made excufes for all the
crimes attending it, which he treated only as tl ii igs
of no confequeace, and which belonged to the old
as well as to the new Government of France. The
perfidy of France was found equally among the
Kings of that country as at any other time. All
thefe things had wrought a wonderful effect on the
Hon. Gentleman's mind, and now made him fup-
port a peace with France. He had, however, held
forth a very different language at the time of the
Commercial Treaty with France, in the year 1787.
He withed to afk the Hon. Gentleman, what was
it that he law fo very pacific in the prefent Govern-1
ment of France, which made it fo peculiarly the
objeCt of his panegyric ? Was France lefs defirous
now to ellablifh a navy than at former periods ?!
What was her conduit with regard to the mainte-
nance of troops? All this was nothing to the
Honourable Gentleman, becaufe, whatever might
be the temper of France at this time, every
thing that was favourable might be expeded from
the difpofition of the Firft Coiiful. He, forfooth,
was anxious for the prefervation of peace ; he
wanted to preferve every commercial relation with
this country, and entertained no views of ho(lility
againft us ! Let any man,look to the vaR extent
of coat in the poffeflion of France, and the im-
menfe preparations making in die different ports
which the occupied, and fay, if there was no dan-
ger at this time to be apprehended from the views
of the Firft Conful—if it was not his intention
to destroy the very fource of our ftrength ? It
was idle now to difcufs the point, as to what had
enabled France to do what the had done ; but
the Hon. Gentleman, who made fo light of every
meafure purfded by that country, mutt not fuppofe
that every thing was done by the leaders, and that
there was no co-operation on the part of the peo-
ple. Was there no fuch thing in France as a mi-
litary confctiption, nor enthufiafm on the part of
the people? Was there no fuch thing as a pre.
partition to invade this country ? He did not, at
that time, feel any particular with to (peak of the
affairs of the Continent : lie was rather difpofed to
let the impreflion remain, which he already per-
ceived on the minds of Gentlemen ; therefore he
would abflain from making any obfervations on
that topic. He withe.d it 'to be clearly underflood
that he did not impure blame. to his Majefly's Mi
niftersbecaufe they did not go to war. Had he
been in Adminiftration himfelf, at this time, he
fhould hesitate very much as to the plan he fhould
purfue in the prefent jundure. It was certainly a
matter of fome doubt, whether Minitters were
right or wrong, in not declaring war. He would
not decide upon the queftion ; but leave it to them
to judge what was belt to be done, and molt likely
to promote the fecurity of the country.
Mr. Fox laid that, however he might 'charge high
with having changed his opinions in other refpeCts
(but which he denied in any one inftance), he
' could not fay that he had ever been an advocate
for high ellablithments.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEVER, in anfwer
to fome obfervations which had been ufed in the
iscourfe of the debate, faid, that nothing was known
to his Majesty's Ministers refpeding the relative
fituation of this Country, which would at all tend
to ftrengthen the argument drawn from what, was
known to the Houfe and the Country. He ad-
mitted, however, that circumftances had arisen
fence the figning of the Definitive Treaty, which
tended to fupport the opinion in favour of large
Eflabli.fliments. It was at the fame time highly
ifatisfaetory to him to be enabled to Rate, that from
the tiomifhing (late of the Revenue during the two
lalt quarters, there was every reafon to believe
that the means would at ife from it of fupporting
an Eflablifhment equally large with the prefent.
Sir JAMES PULTENEY Was of opinion the force
now required was not more than neceffary fur the
fecurity of the country, and he 'did not know whe-
ther a greater force might not be requifite.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE4pLit withed to
corral an error into which a Noble Lord had fallen.
He had never Rated that there had been a reduc-
tion of the Britith infantry, further than the inva
lids, and thole enlitted for limited fervice.
Mr. T. Git E NVILL s intimated his intention of de-
livering his fentimentson the bringing up of the Re-
port,the latendfs of the hour precluding him at
prefent.
The Refolutions'were then put and carried, and
the Houfe being refumed, the Report was ordered
to be received'to-morrow.
The Indemnity Bill paffed through a Committee.
Report to-morrow.
rse other Orders of the Day were deferred.
Adjoutited at Half pait Three this zooming.