Star.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

C9LON EL BROICN.

Mr. COKE, seeing the Noble Marquis in his place,
thought this a fit opportunity for putting a question to
him respecting the dismissal of an Officer from the
service, which took place some years ago. The indi-
vidual to whom he alluded was Colonel Brown, and
he had 1“ petition in hi• hand, which stated teat the
petitioner had been for some time British Vice-Consul
at one of the foreign port.. but that, agreeably to a
circuar from the Foreign Office, dated the 29th May,
1817, he was dismissed, as be alleged, without suffi-
cient cause. He wished to know from the Noble
Marquis whether there was any objection on the part
of Government to pera,it an inquiry into the causes
f.-a- which this Gentleman was dismissed?

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the
nomination of Consuls wa, a prerogative so unquali-
fiedly ve,led in the Croan, that this liou,e had not
hither to inquired into the rummer in which it was
exercise!. In this me, it appeared that Colonel
Blown had bean dismissed; but it was enough to say,
that the
.Secretary for the Colonial Department
thought proper to bestow his confidence upon ano-
ther person whom he thought mote worthy of it. In
addition to this, he coul:l state that Colonel Brown
brought his own dismissal upon himself, and that it
was a measure agreed in ley all the Masters of British
vessels at the port where he re..ided.

AC,TI:IIN LOAN.

Mr. 11. SMITH wished to know from the Noble
Marquis whether any steps had been taken to obtain
f:om Austria the repayment of the debt of twenty-
o:,e millions which she owed to this country, or whe-
ther it was the intention of Government to take any
steps upon that subject?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said !. e had for-
merly given assurances to the House that the repay-
ment of this debt would not be overlooked by Minis-
ters. No decisive steps had been taken since the
matter was last under the consideration of Parlia-
ment, but negotiations respecting it were now pend-
ing. Until these negotiations were brought to an
issue, he could not say what would be the result of
the steps taken hitherto, or what steps Government
might deem it advisable in future to adopt.
Mr. SMITH then said, that, considering the relief I
which this loan would give in the present state of dis-
tress, he should feel it his duty on an early day to sub-
mit to Parliament two Resolutions upon this subject.

WINDOW TAX IN IRELAND.
Mr. S. RICE wished to ask the Welt Hon. Gen-
tleman (the Chancell.-r of the Exchequer), whether it
was the intention of Government to concede a repeal
of, or any modification in that oppressive impost, the
Windo.. Tax in Leland?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, in
reply, said, that after his Noble Friend (the Marquis
of Londonderry) had stated distinctly the other night
the extent to which Government were able to carry
a reduction of taxation, this question of the Honour-
able Member seemed unnecessary. He would now
state, that it was not the intention of Ministers to re,
peal the Tax alluded to in Ireland; but he himself
would bring in a ILL for extending to that part of
the United Kingdom the repeal of the additional duty
nn Malt—(Hear, hear).—Being upon his legs, the
Right Hon. Gentleman said he would take this op-
portunity of replying to the interrogatory of the
,Ho-
nourable Member for Cumberland (Mr. Curwen), re-1
specting the imposition of a duty upon Russian tal-
low. At present he could not say whether Govern-
ment would adopt the Hon. Member's suggestion ;
and, indeed, until the Agricultural Committee had
made its report, and a mole extended view of public
measures was taken, Ministers could not pledge them-
selves further as to future steps.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN, before the House went into,
a Committee of Ways and Means, wished to'say that
he was ashamed and afraid to make an attack upon
an Hon. Member opposite. Ashamed, because his
(Sir Isaac's) ground was so safe; and 'afraid, because
he knew that if he did so, he should be visited with a
reprimand from the Chair: but even with this tenor
before his eyes, he could not help telling that Hon.
Member that lie was not the Oracle of Delphos, and
that his.. calculations with regard to naval affairs
were entirely .fallacious. Ile bad heard OW tioa.

Member speak there upon
night, all of which were r
Mle SPEAlilisaid
fere. The lion. en3lia:
cilert4tot to Tee
eau Used, atod.tkot hTs
timed. The Hon. Mewl

the_ proceediar of the
now for going into a Committee of Supply, but into
a Committee of Ways and Means.
WAYS AND MEANS.
The House then resolved kalif into a Committei
of Ways and Means.
The CH ANC ELLOR ofthe EXCHEQUER moved
a Resolution, that for making good the supply granted
to his *jest!, the Excise duty of one.shilling• in the
pound upon Tobacco and Snuff, which was granted
last Session, to the sth of July, be further continued
for one year.--Agreed.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved, that, for snaking good the supply, the tax of
four shillings in the pound upon all pensions be fur-,
ther continued for one year.
The question having been put,
Mr. HUME moved, as an Amenclinent, that the
said Tax be raised to ten shillings in the pound upon
all pensions and allowances over £2OO a-year.
Mr. TIERNEY said he hoped his Hon. Friend, the
Member for Aberdeen, would not press his Amend-
ment upon the House. It embraced a qunstion of
considerable importande, and he suggested that it
was taking the House by surprise to bring such a
proposition on, without due notice—(Hear, hear).—
A little delay would not prejudice his proposition,
and he therefore put it to the Hon. Member's 'own
feelings, whether, respecting a question of this im-
portance, he ought not to give the House some time
to deliberate upon his proposition ?—Wear, hear). .

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was
convinced that it was only from an ignorance of the
exact condition of the Pension List, that the lion.
Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) brought forward
at this time the proposition which he had just made.
If the House went with him now, they would be
doing.a great injustice to a large class of persons,
and giving undue advantages to others. To explain
himself he would call the attention of the House to.
the real state of the Pension List. It was, doubtless,
thought by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, that an in-
crease of the duty upon Pensions would affect all
Pensioners; but this was not the case, for :here we: e
many Pensioners who, by particular Acts of Polia-
, meta, were exempt from paying all duties and taxes,
and as this class comprehended the greater number
on the list, an addition to the duty would only in-
crease the burdens upon the smaller number who
were exposed, to the duties—(Hear).—lt was only
ancient grants which were subject to duties; but all
modern Pensions were exempt from them.. Ile per-
fectly agreed with the Right Hon. G...:ntlenvin oppo-
site (Mr. Tierney), that the House had been taken
by surprise by this Amendment of the lion. Mernter
for Aberdeen—(Hear).
Mr. CREEVEY said, that no one had a greater
respect for the suggestions and (pinions of a Right
lion. Gentleman on the first bench (Mr. Tiern-v),
upon all occasions,' than he ha.l. That Hon. Gentle-
man had, however, advanced doctrine; th.:: night,
which he (Mr. Crcevey) could not suffer to be ad-
vanced in that House without entering his protest
against them—(Hear).—lt was to hiai totally unin-
telligible why, when this House was called upon to
vote a sum of money from a particular branch of the
public resources, it had not the power of saying that
that sum should not be more or less than the amount
called for. If the Chancellor of the Exchequer
asked for a tax of four shillings in the pound, there
was no reason why his Hun. Friend could not say
that this tax should be ten instead of four, with-
out being obliged to give notice—(Hear).—lf, how-
ever, the discussion of the question was inconvenient
at that moment, he would advise his Hon. Friend to
withdraw his amendment ; but he would never con-
sent to the doctrines laid down by the Right lion.
Gentleman with regard to the power of that I louse
at any time, and under any circumstances, to modify
its grant—(Hear).—lf it should appear to his lion.
Friend that his proposition was inconvenient at ilia:
tide, he would advise him to withdraw it on that
ground alone; but if he did not think it was so, then
he should press his motion, and it should have his
(Mr. Creevey's) support.
Mr. TIERNEY was sorry that any observations of
his should have provoked the anger of the Hon.
Member. It might be that the suggestions which he
made did not meet the approbation of the Hon. Mem-
ber ; but, notwithstanding, he (Mr. Tierney) was not
disposed to yield to liim in a knowledge of the forms
of that House—(Hear).—The only objection which
he made to the amendment was with regard to form,
and he still contended that a proposition of that
nature should not be brought forward without due
notice. He asked what would be the feelings of the
House, if the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, with-
out notice, proposed to reduce this tax to three shil-
lings?—(Near, hear).—He appealed to the justice
and candour of the Hon. Member himself against
pressing the motion. He was sure that, since the ex-
planation given by the Right Hon. Gentleman op-
posite, the question appeared in a' different light to
him, as, perhaps, he.*as not before awake that all
the pensions on he list were not alike. Under melt
circumstances the lion. Member would see the injus-
tice of adding burdens to a few, as the greater part
were exempt from duty. He wished once more to
say that he was sorry for having offended the lion.
Meniber for Appleby, and to state that his objection
to the Amendment arose from a wish that the House
should not be taken by surprise—(Hear).
Mr. HUME denied that he had ever, upon any
occasion, shewn a disposition to take the House or
any Member by surprise. He therefore would with-
draw his amendment for the present ; but be trusted
the Right Hon. Gentleman would lay before the
House a return, containing a list of the pensions no-
minally affected by the vote, and stating what were
and what were not exempted, and the grounds of
exemption. To enable the Right Hon. Gentleman
to produce such a return, he begged to withdraw his
amendment, and to substitute another, proposing the
postponement of the vote.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he had not the least objection to meet the amendment
upon principle; but the present was a moticm which
had bon always agreed to since the reign of. King

eight
Ad in tr.,
'arm. !demi,
'lee -did not see how the House could pass this vote
now, with a reservation of revising it baser. The
words in the Resolution, #4 that four, .and.lkmore,"
would preclude the House from increasing chit tax
in future—Wear, hear).—Should the House now
pass the vote, it Would afterwards be urged as a
reason for not disturbing it. Therefore, until the
Chancellor of the Exchequer shewed that and. parti-
cular inconvenience-would result from the delay, he,
saw no reason why he should ant *agree to the otruss
of his Hon. Friend.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served, that he had been misunderstood. All he
meant to say was, that great injustice would be done
by increasing the duties of pensions in this stage, be-
cause only a portion of those on the List would be
affected by it. Thus, whilst one part of the pensions
would be taxed fifty per cent. the other part would'
be free from taxation altogether. He did not object to
increasing the tax upon pensions, but he was anxious
that it should be equally and justly laid upon all.—
The Hon. Gentleman again adverted to the inconve-
nience of. not granting this vote in the first instance.
Sir J. NEWPORT denied that any injury could
result from a short delay ; and he contended that the
argumentavas only used as a pretext for opposing the
increase of this tax.
Mr. HUME said, that he held a paper in his hand
which would spew the necessity there was-of in-
quiring into the Pension List,. and making some re-
form in it. It was the only Paper he had obtained of
all those he had moved for last Session, and it was a
Return of pluralities of Pensions enjoyed by persons
on the Pension List. This document was returned
fiorn the Admiralty, and was signed " James Dyer,
Chief Clerk." He would read the case of one Gen-
tleman, which was a little curious. This person. in
18Q9, being returned unfit for service. obtained a
pension of £292. 10s. The year after, he was made
a Commissioner of Stamps; and the year after, being
unfit fur. service, he obtained a pension of 1:600. But
the next year again, he was made Paymaster of Sea-.
mens Widows' Pensions ; and he had now a pension'
for that of another £6oo—(Hear, hear).—So that the
whole of this Gentleman's income, from these sever
ral pensions, was altogether no less than El 4.92
(Laud eheersfrom the Opposition—cries of " Namer
from the Ministerial Beaches).
Sir J. OSBORNE —" I can state, from my own
knowledge, that this statement is quite incorrect."
Mr. HUME said, the only ans,,er he would make
to the observation of the lion. Member, was to sub-
mit his document to be read by the Clerk—(Cheers).
The Clerk then proceeded to read—" Edward
Finch Hatton, Inspector of Tea and Coffee, 292/.los.
(Tumultuous cheering).—" Commissioner of Stamps,
600/."—( Hear).
Mr. BROGDEN (Chairman of the Committee)
here observed, that these sums made only 8921. in-
stead of 1499./.
Mr. HUME.—" I can account for that: bete are
292/. as Inspector of Tea and Coffee, 6001. as Com-
missioner of Stamps, and in a few days you will be
called upon to vote 6001. more to this Gentleman, as
Paymaster of Widows Pensions; do not 2921. and
Gout. and (3001. make
.14921. ?"—(Lpud cheers.)
Sir JOHN OSBORNE observed, that Mr. Hatton
Earl been Under Secretary of State.
Mr. HUME said, he knew nothing of that—here
was a Return from the Admiralty—(llear)—and
here also was a sample of correctness in a Lord of
the Admiralty. The House ought to congratulate
itself that it had tow a Lori of the Admiralty who
would state matters correctly !—(Cheer).—He (Mr.
Hume) had, however, to claim the protection of the
House against a repetition cf the interruption which
be had received from that Hon. Lord, who, with-
out any authority, undertook to contradict him flatly
(Hear, hear).—Here was a Return ; and he now
asked, was he to be put down by a bare assertion ?
He had mentioned only this little fact, but the Paper
contained many other cases; and he could lay his finger
upon many Members of this House as very simi-
lar ly circumstanced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that the document was returned from the Admiralty,
because Mr. Hatton was Paymaster of Widows' Pen-
sions. His pensions, however, were a reward for his
general services—(A laugh).—The place which he
formerly filled was one of great trust—(Laughtcr)—
and he retired from the office of Under Secretary of
State without any provision being made for birth It
was to reward him, that he obtained the situation
of Paymaster, to which he also joined that of Corn-
missioner of Stamps. He was now retired from this
latter situation upon a pension. The Right lion.
Gentleman then went on to repeat, that the delay of
this vote would cause great inconvenience, as it would
affect the advances made by the Bank, which were
made upon the security of the first vote. If the House
thought fit to impose a tax upon pensions, it would
be better done at another time.
Mr. TIERNEY said, that after the handsome man-
ner in which the lion. Member consented to with-
draw his motion, be (Mr. Tierney) was obliged to say
that he saw no reason why the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer should not comply with his terms, and he
was still at a loss to see the inconvenience which
would result from postponing this vote—(Heur).--
It was not true that the delay of-this vote could of--'
feet advances made by the Bank, for they had still
the Malt and Land Tax as a security, and the case
in that respect would be the same whether this vote
was passed or not. He would be sorry that any in-
convenience should arise from delay, but if the Hon.
Member persisted in pressing his amendment to a di-
vision, he (Mr. T.) would give it his support (Hear).
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that if
the question was-to be discussed as to the propriety
of imposing a tax.upon Pensions, this was not . the
most proper, time for going into that discussion. - As.
Ministers were not disposed to diminish the tax, the ,
House might trust to them , end it should. be 'recnl-
lected, that passing this vote .now did not compro-
mise any future enlargement:} of the tax which mighi •
be deemed advisable. ._

IIr.TILIINEY said, nothing which the Noble Blar.

had induced him to change VA
the propriety of insisting on this
he hadn't:thy objeetitms to make
al tat upon all pension.
general
50r pet cent. and others le
He thought the vote ought to
should therefore move, as ao
_ Chairman de mart reeves%
and obtain leave to sit again.
Mr. BROGDEN asked whether the Hen. Member
for Abet deen intended to withdraw his Amendment?
Mr. HUME answered in the affirmative.
' Mr. BROGDEN then put the question that the
Aattendment be now withdrawn.
Mr. CROKER rose to contradict the statement of
the Hon. Member, that Mr. Hutton had ladtmged to
the Admiraity and retired from It.
Mr. HUM E—g, I said he was returned from it.'
Mr. CROKER—He never belonged to the Admi-
ralty Office, and therefore his Hon. Friend (sir j„in,
Osborne) was correct in interrupting the Hon. Mem--
ber when he was stating that which was nut true
(Hear, krar).—The reason why Mr. Hatton WAS re.
turned from the Admiralty was this—that in 1811 an
Act passed, by which all pensions to persons clmtred
upon old stores were transfgrred to tl.e Navy
mates, and it was ia that way, and not oche; wire,
that-Mr. Hatton became connected with the
ralty department—(Heart.
Mr. BROUGHAM said that lie had one obsvrap
don to make—

Mr. I3IIOGDEN—" Order ! Order! I must tlte:s.
mist the Honourable Member, there is a motion It.
fore the Committee." _

. Mr. BROUGHAM-4, With great submission to
you, Sir, I have as much right to speak upon thz:
question as any other Member of the Committee.
was about to reply to an observation of an 1-I.:r.
Member who spoke last."
Mr. BROGDEN—" But the question before the
Committee is upon withdrawing a motion; and I die.
expect, when that Hon. Member stood up, that he had
something to offer upon it"—(Hear, hear).
The question was then put upon withdrawing t'..e
motion, and carried.
Mr. BROUGHAM then said, being now permit-
ted to speak, he would begin with an apology for
the time which the discussion in which he sr as con-
cerned took up. Had he not been interrupted in
first instance, he would not have wasted hail •o mud:
time in the observations which he was gring to nar!.-.
He was a little surprised that an lion. Member (Mr.
Croker) should state that another Lion. Member (Sir
J. Osborne) was correct in interrupting the lion.
Member for-Alseideen (Mi. Humes, and setting him
right, though such an attempt at setting light was
never seen before; whilst it was as dear as day that
the Hon. Member for Aberdeen was substantially cor-
rect, and that the Hon. Member who interrupted him
was as substantially wrong—(Hear!)—lle had said
his Hon. Friend was substantially correct, fur when
his calculations were borne out, it mattered little
whether he was correct in saying that this person Le-
longed to the Admiralty or not. But even in that
particular he was right, for he not only Went upon
the authority of a paper sigaed " Jame- Der,
Clerk," and to she,' that it came
from the Admiralty Office, but the eery ch.cornstar.ce
of Mr. Hatton's being Paymaster of Widows' 11r.-
,sions, proved that he was tonnectedwith that pub:i:
department—(Hear, hear).
Mr. CROKER said, tire Hen. and Learned Gentle-
man was not quite correct in assunritsg that the -ma-
, nagement of the Widows' PeliSicins was in the Ad-
miralty Office. The fact was not so. These funds
.were managed by a particular body, called the Court
'of Assistance of the Widows' Charities, and with these
the Admiralty had no concern whatever,

Mr. HUMS. -- But I will spew that this fund is
subject to the Admiralty ; for in the Navy Estimates
I find an item of £105.000 for the funds of the cha-
rity of Seamen's Widows, and further, this is seventy
thousand pounds more than was charged before."
Sir M. W. RIDLEY observe!, that the Court of
Assistance met at the Admiralty Office—(Hear).—
The salary of the Paymaster of this charity, five years
ago, was raised from £2QO to £6OO.
Mr. ELLICE said, that it Would be more exped:ert
at once to reduce these pensions, consistent with the
present state of the country, than to impose a tax of
4s. in the pound upon them. He recommended a ge-
neral revision of the Pension List.

Mr. HUME said, that in 1806 the salary of Mr.
Hatton, as Paymaster of the Widows' Pensions, was
but £2OO a year ; but that in 1813, when we were
full of cash, it was raised to £6OO a year. The same
advances might have taken place in other pensions,
and this was an additional reason why the Haute
should revise it.

Mr. SCARLETT asked, if the words, " four and
no more," had any meaning, how the House could
hereafter increase the four shillings to ten ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
peated, that he had no objection to lay a tax npca
pensions, if the subject was brought on at a proper
time. He would not hesitate to postpone this vote, ;1
he saw any good could be gained by delay ; but
on the other hand, he fiaresav; a positive it convenience
in postponing it, he should call upon the Committee
to agree with him, that it ought now to be passed.
The Committee then divided, when the numbers
appeared to be—For the Amendment, 66—Against
it, 113—Majority against the Amendment, 47.—The
original naotioa being then put from the Chair,
Mr. CALCRAFT hoped the House would net
come to a hasty decision on the question. He t:•lt
that it would be better to leave out the words no
more," as no alteration could take pla:e in that Bill.
A new Bill might, indeed, be brought in to save
trouble, and •he would propose that the words no
more" be left out.

• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he had no objection to leave out the words.
Mr.ELLICE wished to know what was the expense
of collecting that tax ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that it.wai the same as that of collecting other parts
of the band Tax.-
. Mr. ELLICE said, his intention in putting the
quebtion was with a view to shew, that if the pensions
were reduced iii the same proportion, then the expense
of collecting- could be saved entirely-..(Near, hear).
The.CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
it was intended to make some alteration in the mode
of collecting the Revenue. •

on rudientr. from night to ' ' - .and he therefore trusted the Hon. Member '• quis had advanced ha
-• • .4:(
en#l4ll7 ions. ', .. •! de the course of tie Wft. , mind with regard to di
lho felljtanessary tainted.. 21..- ' ' :4-4. Int; L thogght the prainsition lion: lose being posttened•
regi:t
'oils which he cOnsidetinions of a trifling itesonvessienceshosUpre• to O. imposition of a
Ir "'ld If feel that he Naltiliet'Verf reaseetWes 'end ittilw no reason why Mr. RENNET saidh
t in the
obit were quite ill- vent the. House from entertaining it. A deity tlpon some he would
would not tat at all.
iber menSed to have mistaken eight days could not produce math incoevatde
louse. .Thequestion was not ,and in time the official Returns alluded to by the be postponed; and he
)mmittee of Surmlr. but into Hon. Member for Aberdeen might be made out ; but Amendment, that the
.....- and obtain leave to sit

• • •
Mr. HUME reteinkr;h:. Right lion. Geqii-Oman
that when he (Mr. fliitiSel had brought forwaid.th;
subject. he (the Chancellor of tbe -
stood uo to negatiVe his motion. He corn)
the d,,ct of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
he would carry his present Resolution into el,
Mr. BROUGHAM hoped the expense of collecting
the Sixpenny anti Shilling Duties would also be di-
minished. Were such means resorted to, much might
be saved, but this did not appear to be the object of
Ministers. In proof of this, he alluded to the case of
an individual who, having I•cen superannuated in
one office; now held two others in the Land Tax Office.
He would direct the attention cf his lion. Friend, the
Member fur Aberdeen, to that .otlice, and he was
sure it he rooked there he would find plenty of abuses
to occupy him for some time.
The motina as amen:cd, by the omission of the
'words " no more," was thcu agreed to.
Oa the motion of the ellAxcELLon of the EXCRII-
gerEn, it WAS agreed to continue the annual taxes on
:Sugar, Tobacco, .3:c.
The CH A NCF.LT.OII of the rXe HEWER then
snrived that leave bz given to raise twenty millions by
'Exchzquer Bills.
Mr. ELLICE asked a question respecting the result
of the Meeting at the Treasury Chambers that day.
The CHANCELLOR .1 the EXCHEQUER re-
plied, that on Monday next he would brng forward
the plan which he proposed.
The motion was then. agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved that four millions, a surplus remaining in the
Eschrquer of the Supplies 0f.1821, be applied to the
zervice of which was agreed to.
The House theh resumed, and the Report was or-
dered to be received on Monday next.

Jii
!hequer) had
tplained of
but hopsd
-frect.

Tic CHANCELLOR of the-EXCHEQUER gave
no:ice. teat on Monday next
.he would move thin
the House re,olve itself into a Committee for con. i-
del ing t!►e Act of 1784; commonly called the Navy
5 per C,;.lt. Act.