Star.
London, England, 1822-03-14 00:00:00

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to the proper authority. If the evidence
fore the Commissioners bore out the
in the House, some remission of
°tight to be greeted. lie did not,
say anything on that point. He rose
glad the Hon. Member made the distinct
the period of his ersinstion orthe '
which the Commissioners visited it.
period the greatest correctness prevailed in every part
of the jail.
Mr. DICKINSON, after adverting to Mr. Burtonisi
Report of the jail in ISIS, defended the conduct of
the Somersetshire Magistrates, and said they were as
incapable of savageness or inhumanity of feeling as
any men in existence.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that he rose in .otrse-
queace of having beep so strongly alluded to by 'the
Member (Mr. Roam} Hew as unwilling to re•
mein entirely silent on that subject ; bat he was still
soave nawilfing m go intothe details of that question
then. There was a specific motion on that subject
to come on for discussion, and it was quite irregular
to anticipate, that minion. The evidence taken before
the Commissioner/ had: been ordered to be printed,
and was expected to lie laid on the table very soon:.
—lt would, therefore, be more regular to postpone
any discussion until Hon. Members should have an
opportunity of examining an 4 retorting to that evi-
dence. ,He cqpfessed that he reatFthb Report of the
Commissioners with feelings of the deepest regtenH
(I/ear, Bear).—With respect to the pirtietiler
stances of misconduct in the Governor oftheoail, he
entertained the same opinion which all other Hon.
Members entertained. He thought the treatment of
the three persons instanced in the Report most cruel,
particularly the person at whose head a pistol was
pointed, by him who ought to administer comfort
and relief—(Hear, hear!).—It was impossible to read
over that Report without feelings of indignation and
disgust at the conduct of him who was the author of!
those cruelties—(Hear, kear).—But those feelings of
indignation, however strong and reasonable, ought
not to hurry the House into any censure on the Mn..
gistrates, until they could hate the evidence before
them. What he rose for was, to entreat the House
to•attspend their judgmeut 'omit those Papers Would
be laid before it. With respect to Mr. Haat, the
Circumstances should be very strong to induce him
(Mr. Poll so go into any discussion on his case then,
particularly as a specific motion was to be made in
his favour. He inquired into the statement made
with regard to Mr. Hunt, and found that he occu-
pied two rooms in the piison. One room next to him
was appropriated to the use of two persons who
waited on Mr. Hurst, and through whose room he
had the privilege of walking into the yard. Under
all the circumstances of the case, he did not think
that the Magistrates were influenced by any un-
worthy motives. lion. Gentlemen ought, in justice
to the Magistrates, to read the evidence. It would
be found that the Magistrates did all in their power
to afford Mr. Hunt every possible comfort. They
made several alterations in the prison for his conve-
nience. If the house considered the local situation
of the jail, it would be seen that no blame was to at-
tach to the Magistrates, and that they were not ac-
tuated by any unworthy motive to inflict severity of
puiiishment. He understood that the present High
Sheriff for the County of Somerset had taken on him-
self the responsibility of rendering everything satis-
factory to Mt. Hunt, and admitting his friends to
him on the same footing as had been before the cause
of complaint. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read
extracts from the Commissioners' Reports, stating,
" that great pains had been taken to render the jail
as commodious as possible, and that the laudable ex-
ertion of the Magistrates was attended with success."
Ile had written to the Clerk of the Peace of that
Chunty, to know what measures were adopted by the
Magistrates in consequence of the Report of the Com-
missioners. He received an ans" er, that the Magis-
trates had appointed a Committee to inspect the jail,
and that the Committee would report very soon ; so
that it was certain the Report of the Commissioners
was under the consideration of the Magistrates. He
would admit that there was some neglect on the part
of the Magistrates--(/tear, hear)—but that might be
accounted for from the confidence they reposed in the
Governor, whose conduct had deserved the admira-
tion of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Buxton). He would
refer to the Report, in order to shew that the Magistrates
bad acquiesced in the character given by the Hon.
Gentleman to the Governor. The Hon. Member him-
self placed confidence in that Governor, who had
come from the hulks with a good character. The
Right lion. Gentleman then cited the opinion of Sir
J. P. Acland on the conduct of the jailer, and that
from that, and the Report of the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Buxton), the Magistrates had been deceived in
consequence of those representations. After compli-
menting the Gentlemen of the County, who, without
having pay or reward, had undertaken so much
trouble in the Commission of the Peace, and who
had exerted their Commissions with so much zeal,
and honesty, and independence, he thought it not too
much to implore the House to suspend their judgment
of the conduct of those Magistrates, until they had
read the evidence on which the Report was founded.
Mr. BENNET said, that no one was more ready
than himself to retract his opinion, if he had found
it to be wrong. When he introduced the case of
Mary Cuer, he did say it was a case of unparalleled
cruelty. He was still inclined to avow that opinion,
and to say most di*inctly that it was a case of ex-1
treme tyranny. He did not charge the Magistrates'
of the County with that, because her sufferings lasted
only two days, and it could not reach their notice ;
but he accused them for their general conduct in not
snaking more particular inquiries when they saw the
prisoner in irons. He considered the Visiting Magis-
trates unfit for their situations, and lie would take
care to move that House to address his Majesty to
leave those Magistrates dismissed from the Commis-
sion of the Yeace. He repeated that he passed no
general censure on the County Magistrates. lie knew
the Gentlemen of the County did take on themselves
,blesome offices and very laborious duty, without
,ard or expectation. The Visiting Magistrates
the objects of his censure, and he would say
were unfit for their situations ; and if the evi-
dence which was laid before them, and which was
rdered to be printed, bore him out, he would move
• their removal.
Ir.HUME observed, that lie said the Magistrates
builty of cruelty tow4ds the prisoners, and

respect
The _ _
to observe, ;bitiAkincliawlgrimim-w—°re:th4
Houk, it was stittitrthit 114111011.attd siguistions
had been signed by tiks-Judget. He had seen those
rules in their original form, did could My that there
were two or three among theta not fit for any jail—
(Rear, hear—But he cguld say that these'rileswere
eat off by the Judges,,Nao then signed the remain-
der. He could say that :the rules and regulations
which were signed by the Judges and sent down,were
the best that could postlbly be devised for the admi- I
aistration of any prism. He rose merely on account
of a name which had been introducecrin conction,
with those rules,, and by which it was said they were,
sanctioned. He could say that the rules which met
the approbation of the Judges, were as good as could
possibly have been devised.
The Petition was brought up, and laid on the table.
JOINT POSTMASTERS-GENERAL.
Lord NOLMANBY said, it was not without a
considerable share of difficulty and diffidence that he
could at any time prevail on himself to bring joy
question of his before the House. That difficulty
would then be greatly increased if the motion which
he would submit to the House had anything of an
invidious oe personal nature. The question which
he was. about to intrude did not involve any of those
hardships, which belonged to other situations. It had
not for its object the discharging of humble servants
who had spent their life in the laborious duties of
their office. His motion did. not involve a charge
against any individual ; on the contrary, no praise
could be too high to bestow on those individuals
who had the conduct of the business of the Post Of-
fice. Every one whose business led hint to an inter-
course with the active officers at the head of that
establishment experienced the greatest attention,cour-
test., aid politeness. His object was not to trench
on the salaries or emoluments of those officers, but his
motion was against the keeping up of the expensive
and useless place of Joint Postmaster-General. He did
not attribute any blame to his Majesty's Ministers
for supporting those appointments. Jobs of that
kind were created and continued by every Adminis-
tration. One set ofPinisters were as likely to sup-
port them as another. His opinion was, that the pre-
sent difficulties and distresses of the country called
loudly for the speedy abolition of them—(flear).—..
The division took place in the reign of Queen Anne.
In :hewing that the duties of the office might, with-
out ant difficulty, be performed by one individual,
he thought that the means of proof were very consi-
derablylightened by the circumstance of one of them
having been included in the Sinecure Bill. However,
be might appeal to the notoriety of the fact, that the
business of the Post Office would not be impeded if
there were no Postmaster at all; but be did not go
the length of saying that there should be do Post-
master—on the contrary, he felt the value of having
a person of high name at the head of such a depart-
ment. But why have two persons in the office as
Joint Postmasters? Would it be said that the collec-
tion of the revenue of the department must not be
entrusted to one person, but there must be a check
upon him in the shape of a second Postmaster ? The
Finance Committee, in 1817, indeed, appeared to
sanction this notion, which, in his mind, conveyed
an imputation that no individual ought to lie under.
The Committee said that it was not fit to leave the
trust to be discharged by one person. And why not
leave it to one person? If it was right to act upon
the principle of distrust in one instance, why not ap-
ply -it to all cases ?—why not introduce a second
Treasurer of the Navy, or of any caber public de-
partment where a valuable trust was confided to a
single individual? He felt the necessity of confining
the duties to one person, rather because it appeared
from the evidence of Mr. Palmer, who would ever be
regarded as a great public benefactor, that the per-
sons were usually changed upon a change of Minis-
try, and it was of vast importance that the duties of
the office should be discharged with as much unifor-
mity as possible ; and further, he saw another reason
for limiting the number to one, in the possibility
there was of great difference of opinion existini
be-
tween the two Postmasters. The evidence of
Chesterfield before the Committee, in 1797, on this
subject, was worth attending to.• He was asked, did
there not often exist a difference of opinion between
these two officers? He replied, that sac!: a thing as
a difference seldom occurred; but when there did, it
was always understood that the junior should yield
to the senior—so that the country was new pay-
ing a' salary of 2,0001. a year, in order to induce a
Noble Marquis to give way to a Noble Earl !
(Hear I and laushter).—He had a further reason for
believing that the duties of the situation did not re-
quire the attendance of two Postmasters, in the fact
that one of them, for the best part of two years, was
employed exclusively jn diplomatic affairs. With
respect to the Irish Post Office, where there were also
two Postmasters, the expense was still greater. But,
under present circumstances, if a Nobleman, a nal
five of Ireland, could be fixed as a resident in that,
country by an appointment in the Post Office, be
would have no objection to pass it over. The House,
would, then, look at the proposition now before it with
great deliberation. The measure was one of eco-
nomy alone : his object was not to lessen the in-
fluence of the Crown: he did not touch upon that to-1
pic: when the time came, be would not hesitate to
state his opinion upon that matter; but for the pre-
sent he reserved his sentiments upon the subject. But,
certainly, if this proposition were resisted solely on the
ground that it was a measure that would trench upon'
die necessary and just influence of the Crown, then,
he would think that the People of England had ik
right to complain. There was no doubt that the diesl
tresses of the country arose out of that unnatural
exertion to which she was forced by the late war—
the Revenue and the taxation were increased beyond'
all anticipation, and the march of events of memo
sity added to the influence of the Crown (Hear, heasi.
But it would be hard, indeed, to turn round ups,
the country and resist their demands of relief from
distress, which was brought about by the very causes
that produced a progressive influeute to the flit *a.'

to •
Member who supported this myrmidon did not
it=himself .to Ely further. memore of economy
y: But as to thole* gen ilites torthe fina-
lise to• abolish two Lords of the AAMira' he. vie `eil-
pected, in consistency.witit theit conduct on that at-
socni,that they would give biro their support—other-
wise whir could they to themselves. by the
vote of the former nigtrtrist'ar better would it have
been if that proposition were lost-4lmt his Honour-
able Friend who moved the amendment on the former
night for reduction should have been left by himself'
to exclaim
a majority of the House, having voted with him for
a solitary aye upon the occasion, than that
the reduction, should now abandon their principleo
and vote against a proposition to reduce so unneces=
sary and extravagant an expense. But he had a
better opinion of the consistency and sincerity of
the House than to believe that the motion would be
successfully resisted. His Honourable Friend (the
Member for Yorkshire) had declared on a former
night, that he was ready to support every pmposi •
tion fbr reduction which was consistent with the ho-
nour and security of the country. If,
then, that Hon.
Member tesiated this motion, he must be prepared to
shew that the maintenance of two Postmasters• G-
eneral was necessary to the honour and safety of the
country—( Hear, hear). His Honourable Friend, the
Member for Suffolk, had likewise stated, that • re-
duction should be carried to the utmost point, as he
was persuaded that nothing but the load of taxation
was the cause of the great distress. He was, there-
fore, corifident.of The support of these two Gentle-
men. To the House generally he would appeal, with
a full assurance that they, would, on this occasion,,
act with consistency, and a due tenderness for the
distresed condition of the People —(Hear, hear). He
then moved,
" That it is the opinion of this House, that without detri-
ment to the public service, the duties of the Postmasters-Ge-.
neral might be performed by one individual, and that the salary
of the other might be saved to the country."
Mr. ROBINSON said, that although his Noble
Friend in bringing forward his motion had thought
proper to deprecate a certain course of opposition to
him as being unfair, he (Mr. R.) confessed that he
felt himself bound to take that very course as one
which imperiously called for the rejection of the pro-
p6sition. With regard to the Bill of liil2, to which
his Noble Friend had alluded, he for one never as-
sented to that Bill, because he held its principle to
be erroneous. He could not now look at the question
in that narrow point of view in which his Noble
Friend was disposed to do. When he came down to
the House he confessed that be was disposed to dis-
cuss it upon those grounds ; but the course of his
Noble Friend's argument rendered it necessary that
the question should be taken up in its more extended
bearings and connections. His Noble Friend admit-
ted that he expected the success of his motion to
lead to similar propositions upon similar grounds—
that the principle, being adopted, should be carried
into further and more extensive operation—(Hear,
Hear).—Therefore if this was only to be the prece-
dent for the reduction of various other offices, it
brought distinctly under the view of the House the
question whether the influence ought to be dimi-
nished or not ? He knew it was very easy to take,
declarations of Honourable Members, such as that
of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Yorkshire, that
he would vote for all reductions consistent with the
safety of the State—it was very easy and very con-
venient to take such sentiments, and make use of I
them by way of taunt, coupled with the question of 1
whether the safety of the State depended upon a
Postmaster-General. It was very convenient to do
this, but he did not conceive it to be the fair or the
enlightened view of the question which he had ex-
pected from his Noble Friend. For his own part, he
should take this ground, and he was prepared to
maintain it, that the influence of the Crown ought
not to be diminished, and that the proposition of his
Noble Friend would tend to produce that effect. He
was aware that this could not be a popular ground,
but no consideration of that nature ever had deterred,
or ever should deter him from adopting that conduct
which he believed to be in consistence with his duty.
If they examined into all history in all time, they
found a certain degree of power existed wherever
there was a Government, which was for the benefit
Of the State so governed. But there must be a line
at which this power should stop. The question then
becaMe that of where the line should be drawn ? In
the present case his Noble mend had touched very
cautiously upon that question, but he had said enough
to shew clearly that he considered the influence of the
Crown to be now in a state to be reduced, He, how-
ever, was prepared to say that that influence was not
now in a condition to be reduced. He knew it might
be shewn that a greater number of offices were now
in existence than in former periods. But that was by
no means a proper view of the question, unless they
looked at all the counteracting causes which bad
sprung up to oppose—as he hoped there always
would be opposed—a barrier to the growth of undue
influence on the part of the Clown. If they looked
at the situation of this country now and compared it
with its situation In former times, or with that of
other countries, they would find that a salutary power
had arisen which rendered inefficient the influence of
the crown, if exerted for any purposes hostile to the
freedom of the People. Only let them consider the
almost universal distribution of knowledge in this
country at the present moment—(Cheers front the
Opposition). He hoped lie should be allowed to pro-
fess and to feel respect for that general knowledge
which gave so much value and strength to public
opinion. The progress of inforination within the last
fife years was greater than could have been believed
to be.possible by those who were living at that time.
Was it not a fact that a public man in these days
acted under a weight of responsibility in the decisions
of public opinion, which bad no existence in former
times ? He did nut Mean to sarthat a Minister was
more subott to personal risk or loss of property, but be
could not move without having the eye of the Public
aeon him at eve' y nulling, and that with the public

,d 1 his actg. liver/thing he did !es at-
featful responsibility quite beyond Heat
I upon him in dynes when the indigence
pressed more directly upon Pa-liament
of Hear, hear, frees the appositian).-...
If this. He wits glad of it. !secant it
check, which was conducive to the
interests. Then, looking at the deess
him, end not hi-AiU*li te •iveliga
wished to place it, he did say. That
;combined to' •preveto the posallity
of his sanctioning any further deerease itte ins
ilusace Auld power of dse Crown- P's Gobi t Rim&
saw the convenience in briaging the question ter.
Ward tiputt the ground be had chosen. 'lle knfirp
very, well that many votes might be obtained Wmos
the question as a =um of economy, which would
not have supported a distinct proposition for lessen,
ing the influence of the Crown. That etperilnett
wits pfd In the last Session, and perhaps his 1441 d.
Friend had the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury's mos
don in view, which proposed the disqiialification di
all placemen for seats in that House. This was
brought forward upon the direct ground of lessening
the influence of the Crown in Parliament ; • but the
House rejected that proposition. It was impossible
now to separate the two principles in the present case;
and unless they were prepared to contend that the
influence of the Crown was too great, they could not
support the motion.- If they voted in its favour with-
out taking these things into their consideration, they
would not be doing their duty to the country. These
were his reasons for opposing the motion, and he
trusted he had stated them fearlessly and openly.—
He knew h might be charged against them, as such
imputntiops bad been made, that they set their faces
against AU reductions, and that with the sordid mo-
tive of maintaining themselves in power. Stich im-
potations could not affect them, devoid as they were
of all foundation. But if they had not nerve enough
to hear up against such attacks they a ould be totally
unfit for the situations which they filled. His sense
of duty compelled him to meet the motion of his
Noble Friend by a negative—(Hear, hear).
Mr. HUDSON GURNEY thought that the House
would eternally disgrace itself if it rejected the motion
for the sake of keeping up an office to support the in-
fluence of the Crown, which must only tend to weaken
its power. It was nothing but a job for giving 2.500!.
a-year to a Noble Lord for supporting the existing
Administration.

Mr. Alderman SMITH opposed the moti,.n.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT said, that if his private feelings
were to influence him upon the present occasion, he
should not vote for the motion of the Noble Lord.
—One of the Noblemen who held" those offices had
shewn him the greatest personal kindnesses as Lord
Lieutenant of the County with. which he was con-
nected, which he believed to be greatly indebted to
that Noble Personage for his liberal attention to its
interests. But he was not standing there as a private
individual, and therefore he must not be actust•l by
private feelings. His duty was to vote for the reduc-
tion of every office which could possiby he spared
with safety to the State. It did not appear to be
contended that there seas any danger in reducing a
Postmaster-General; and however he regretted giving
a vote against the interest of the Nobleman to whom
be had alluded, his sense of duty was paramount to
all other considerations.
Mr. H. SUMNER considered th.e: the roptilue
had been misled at County Meetings, by a cry of
"retrenchment," which would lead to anything but
their substantial relief. He did not know whether
these offices were necessary in point of duty or net,
but he should oppose the motion because :le zi.ought
that, instead of the power of the Crown !,eilnr too
great, it was the popular influence which had
in-
creased beyond its proper limits.
Sir J. YORKE said, that after the vote which he
had given the other night, he wished to explain that
which he should give upon the present occasion. He
understood the office in question to be opposed upon
the ground of its being useless, and defended upon
that of its being material to the influence of the Crown.
He had always been taught to believe that the power
of the Crown, amongst aloyal and free People, did not
want to be bolstered up by half a dozen useless offices.
—lf both these Postmasters-General were wanted, it
appeared that they were not both on duty at once,
and therefore, as they took watch and watch about,
they ought to divide one salary between them. He
should support the motion of the Noble Lord.
Mr. DENISON understood the observations of his
Hon. Colleague, with regard to the cry of retreach-
ment," to be applied to him. He begged to state,
that he should always be an advocate for retrench-
ment the most unsparing. In reply to the uoctines
of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, he would
say, that the power of the Crown had increased, and,
would increase.
Mr. FRENIANTLE was decidedly bostik to the
proposition of the Noble Lord. He conceived that
he should be deficient in his duty if he did me sr to
his objections to the manner in which the qaestioa
had been brought forward. The Noble Lord had
put the question upon the ground of saving 25001.
a-year. Now, if this had been the whole case, and
the contemplated saving had been £5l. no elan would
have been more willing than he to support it. I3at
the question ought not to be put in this narrow point
of view. They Qught to look to its general Ora:
upon the country, and to remember that it went to
destroy the most ancient institutions, wh.ch had ope-
rated so much good to the People. If they went
from one department to another and said, Ilere is
• an office well ccsnducted, but it will be as svA ma-
naged by a clerk," they would go on until they had
• destroyed all the ancient institutions of the coantry.
Uponthe question of Crown influence, he was con-
, vincesr,' that so far from its being increased, it had
been considerably lessened of late years. Upot these
gtounas, then, he should vote against the motion of
the Noble Lord.
Mr. S. WORTLEY should not have addressed the
House but that he understood he had been alluded tr
in his absence by his Noble Friend, the Mover of the
ReAtttion. His mind had been occupied by this
tleatiOn, to which he had paid serious attention. Ile
did not mean to say, nor could any one pretend to
say, that this office was necessary to the safety of th
State. But the question was, where did Gentlemen,
opposite mean to lead them ? A week bad scarcely
elapses!, sines two places which were under the Win-.
mice of the Crown, were severed froni it. TunighC
another was proposed, atad to•mOrrow a whi.4e* Boa..

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