Star.
London, England, 1831-07-21 00:00:00

BOROUGH O• BISHOP'S CASTLE.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the borough of
Bishop's Castle be placed in schedule A.
Mr. KNIGHT rose to oppose the motion of the Noble
Lord. He sled that Bishop's Castle was not a burgage
tenure, but had been a borough ever since the time of
Queen Elizabeth, and there was not the slightest indication
that it was a decaying borough. In 1821, the population was
between 1,800 and 1,000, and in 1031, it exceeded 2,000.
It had been his intention to take the sense of the house on
this question, but after the division that had taken place on
the previous night on the census, he would not, as the de.
vision had then limn given on a general principle. The noble
lord bad, in his introduction, stated that the great object of
his measure was to destroy nomination boroughs. Now,
Bishop's Castle was no nomination borough; and if any one
doubted his assertion, he would demand investigation, which
he had a right in justice to do. He would enter his protest
as an humble individual against its being disfranchised.—
The hon. member proceeded to state at some length the na-
ture of the constituency ; and said that at a future stage of
the bill he would move fur leave that it be coupled to sotne
other borough.
Lord J. RUSSELL, in explanation, said, that although
it was not directly a nomination borough of an individual,
it was a fact well-known that it was under the direct 'nth'.
nice of property ; and it was a fact equally well-known that
the only time that it had ever returned a Whig Member had
been by means of bribery.
Mr. ROGERS did not think that his lordship was war.
ranted in making such assertions, but admitting that the
charges were true, as the right of the burgesses descended
from father to son, it would be a hard ease that the innocent
should suffer for the guilty.
Sir J. BRYDGES spoke in general terms of the whole
measure being oneof spoliation. He said the noble lord had
promised to pay every attention to whatever errors might be
pointed out to him in the committee, but instead of keeping
his promise, he had overruled them whit all his delegated
majory. (A laugh.) Yes, he would say delegated majority,
backed by the delusion of the people. (A laugh.) It might
be a good subject fur laughter to those hon. gents. but it would
be much better argument if they would Armand reply to him.
(Hear, hear, from the opposition.) Several hon. gentlemen
had said, that although they approved of the general prin-
ciple of the bill, they would oppose particular details of it,
and he was exceedingly disappointed on that account at the
fate of the question relating to Appleby. Several highly
talented members had lost their seats in that house this les.
sion because they wouid not promise to support the bill, the
whole bill, and nothing but the bill; and now the bill they
were to support was not the bill as it stood in the original,
but the bill materially altered ; and yet they were then to
obey the dictates of the deluded people. (Oh, oh.) In the
present dilemma of ministers, he thought the best thing
they could do was to withdraw ' the Lill. (Laughter.) Be
would wait till the hon. gentlemen had enjoyed their laugh,
but it was the first time he had spoken on the question, and
he had a right to be heard. (Hear, hear, from the Oppo-
sition,) He hoped that ministers would withdraw the bill,
(laughter) and he was sure that in doing so they would
confer a great obligation on many of the hon. gentlemen who
had pledged themselves to support it. (A laugh.) He had
not hopes of effecting any good by dividing the house after
the fate of the borough of Appleby.; but he considered it
proper to express his sentiments. The bill was a revolu-
tionary measure, and a measure of spoliation ; and it was
right that the people out of doors should know its mis-
chievous tendency. A re.action had already taken place
out of doors; he was convinced that the bill would
not pass this session, and he hoped that it would never
pats at all.
Mr. KNIGHT said that the only argument with which
those gentlemen on his side of the House were met by the
opposite benches, was the language of vituperation. He
wondered what right the noble lord had to use such lan-
guage which was libelling the whole constituency. He
(Mr. Knight) would now, as he bad stated at the com-
mencement, demand an investigation into the facts. He
would ask the noble lord if he meant to make bribery any
portion of the plea for disfranchising Bishop's Castle ; if so,
he ought to suffer proof to be adduced; if he did not mean
to snake It on that ground, he had no right to have asserted
what he had done. He could not understand on what prin.
ciple the noble lord meant to take his stand. If he was
met on the score of population, be then resented to nomini.
lion • if he was met on nomination, he betook himself to
bribery. (Hear, hear, from Opposition.)
Lord J. RUSSELL alluded to the warmth of the Hon
Member. His Lordship said that he always laid down
population as his text, but on account of the Honourable
Member having given the borough so high a recommenda-
tion, his Lordship had thought it necessary to add the
statement of facts that he had made, that the Committee
might not remain under an erroneous impression regarding
the borough. He bad merely done so to put the house upon
its guard. The Honourable Member had talked of admitting
proof, but he must have known very well that any plan of
reform which required such proof as he spoke of, would
have been of no avail. It would have been like a suit of
Chancery, there would have been hearings, and orders, and
delays of ten or twelve years, and in the meantime the
substance of the nation would have been waisted in the came
manner as the substance of the unfortunate suitors in
Chancery, by those who were improperly dispossessing
them of their property. Whenever a Gentleman said that
he would not divide the holies, his Lordship would never
disturb him In making his funeral oration, and he would
not incur reproof for replying.
Mr. GOULBURN thought that the charge of bellies,
was unwarrantably brought forward, as the eked= to Which
it was applied bad been discussed before that House; sad
although the member had been unseated, it had not been for
bribery that he had lost his seat.
R. Sir BUGDEN said that the noble lord knew nodilug
about the COurt of Chancery. He had taunted bon: gentle.
men with their funeral orations : presuming on ,
he was insulting the bon. members of the house. ( .)
y
The noble lord was even now laughing.—(A single voice
from the Opposition, " Hear,"—load laughter.) The re.
mark which be made about the Court of Chancery was the
most absurd that he had ever heard in his life; that Court
was the guardian of the right of property, and the substance
of suitors, amounting to several millions, was preserved to
than by its authority. His lordship spoke without knowing
anything of what he said.—(Order, order.) The greater
part of the autelioradons in the bill had been suggested
by the opposition. He trusted, therefore, the noble lord
would speak with more modesty, and not arrogate to his
aide of the house the exclusive desire of benefitting the
nation. If the noble lord did not lower his tone, he (Sir E.
S.) must, deprive hint of the benefit, an humble one certainly/.
of his advice.end suggestion. (Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said Honourable Members had been
piqued on no reasonable ground. The leaned Member was
Offended at the Noble Lord's allusion to the Court of Chan-
eery. But really such allusion was customary in that house,
whenever delay was the subjectof discuisloo.-.IA laugh.)
He hoped moderation and good humour would be the order
of the day. The noble lord had not been guilty deka&
Of either.—(llBlll•_)
Mr. ROBINSON asked whether bin. members were to sit
silent when they were accused of being a delegated majority?
The public would. be disappointed at the technical and
quibbling objections raised foe purposes o(delay. (No.) The
learned member foe Botoughbridge might say no ! but
be could tell him that he went over to soften the prin.
alpha and detail already decided, that he (Mr. emit
.net listen to. him with patience. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Mambas were taunted with sappating the bill with its pre*
lint alterations, having been sot to support the bill, the
,lebote'Bill, end nothing but the Bill. Bet the people mane
by *A aspresion a reiorm coomessurate Inman, in lib..
ralityj end in !IWO with the taessuge PtOPINd by rade.

. J

. • .

..~
y

s',.

ten.--(Hear.) He trusted they would proceed in a spirit of,
moderation and fairness, or the people would accuse them
of wasting time.
Sir. C. WETHERELL denied that he had been guilty
of that repetition—a(Oh and bear) of which be was accused
by the Member for Worcester' the schoolmaster of Worms-
tera—(A laugh.) A learned Lord bad spoken about the
schoolmaster being abroad—from whence he came, or was to
come, he (Sir C. W.) was not at the time aware but 10l hi
came forth from the city of Worcester. (A laugh.)* If some of
the Noble Louis opposite, the leaders of the House, had
given him a hint about his prolonging the debate, he
might have submitted to it. But for the Member
for Worcester to play the schoolmaster, to have the. pre-
tensions of calling him (Sir C. W.) to account, (hear, and a
laugh), he, whom even a reformed parliament would not
dignify with the scholastic dignity, was too much to put up
with. But the schoolmaster must look to himself. He had'
attempted to explain the cry of the " whole Bill, and
nothing but the Bill," and had only proved it to be a sense-
less cry. (Hear.) He could not be the sehoolmastet meant
by the learned lord. He must be an impostor, a sham
schoolmaster. (A laugh.)
Sir J. BItYDOES explained. He had said nothing
relevant to the subject under discussion.
The CHAIRMAN then put the question—" that
Bishop's Castle form part of Schedule A," which was
agreed to without a division.
On the question that Blechingly tam part of the Schedule,
Sir.C. WETHERELL said this was a burgers tem:re
borough. Its franchise was on a principle entirely distinct
from that of the freeman's franchise, the borough scot and
lot, and other franchises which sent the members of that
house. He understood the bill to mean the disfranchisement

of decayed places. Now the term decay could not apply to
burgage tenure boroughs. They were now what they were
centuries ago, at the time of their creation. The same
opinion, he would observe, had been expressed by Mr. Can-
ning. They were not created on the principle of population,
or of popular representation. The power of nomination was
always meant to reside in' the lord of the borough. His te-
nants had the elective franchise, and he had power to extend
it ad fibetess. This power was given him for the protection
of the landed and aristocratic interest. Decay was not ap-
plicable to the burgagc borough tenures. On what grounds,
then, was Bleiddrigley to be disfranchised? (Hear.)
Lard ALTHORP ars not quite satisfied that the bur.
gage tenure boroughs were originally created on the princi-
ple stated. But the question was, whether the boroughs were
inconsiderable. He denied that they were advantageous to
the aristocratic and landed interest. They merely increased
the power of certain individuals of that class. The landed
interest, numerous and affluent, would enjoy an influence
among; the new constituency, an influence fair and salutary,
and emanating from the lady generally. Would not the
maintenance of these boroughs be dangerous to the aristo-
cracy, when the public feeling was so much directed against
all nomination places ? But with respect to the burgage
tenure boroughs, the bill did not effect restoration. When
he spoke of the bill as being the restoration of the constitu-
tion, he did not look to the details, but to the whole of that
constitution. The original object of the constitution, was
the general and free representation of the people. And
therefore did he say, that though it might destroy some
boroughs, now in the same state as heretofore, still it was a
restoration of the constitution. (Cheers.)
Sir R. PEEL must enter his protest against some of the
principles of the noble lord. The object of the constitu-
tion was the true representation of the people. But the
word " people," did not mean what it meant in the bill ; it
did not mean the whole of the people, but great corporate
Wks, great classes of society. He denied that the present
system would give a freer, fuller, or fairer representation._
The present variance of franchise, while it excluded no class,
however humble, allowed to property and education a legi-
timate preponderance. Public feeling had certainly been
dhected fur the last six months against the nomination bo-
roughs; but it originated from the particular circumstances
under which the bill bad been introduced. With respect to
the burgage tenure boroughs, ministers had raised the public
clamour on false grounds, for they were not decayed
boroughs, and they were free from usurpation. He denied
that the nomination boroughs promoted individual interests.
(Olt !) They promoted the interest of the classes to white
certain individuals belonged.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the opinions which
the right hon. baronet described as faliadous, lad met with
the universal approbation of the people. The burgage te-
nants were originally an independent class, and had been
subsequently bought up by individuals. (Hear.) He de.
nied that the representation was originally meant to be can.
fined to certain classes and interests • it was Intended *r
the community at large. It was absurd to say a burgage
tenure borough was for the advantage of the aristoaisey,wheo
on the bankruptcy of its aristocratic lord, It might moo
into the hands of a person of a contrary intones. Were
these nomination boroughs to be maintained, who the Lab.
lie expected the representation to be fair and fuR? Tie
right hon. baronet seemed to think the grievances which hod
given rise to the late demonstration of public feeling, we.
fictitious. But if such was the case, would such an extras.
dinary unanimity have pervaded the nation? (Hear.) The
people of England had the good sense to see the measure
was one of great difficulty. They meant by the bill, the
whole bill, and nothing but the bill, that they adopted the
bill, and thought the whole of it necessary, and would not
have any different measure. The supporters of the measure
did not call it a restoration of the Constitution as It existed
at any particular time; but it was a recurrence to the great
principles of the Constitution. This was what could not be
objected to by those who were reformers all their lives, at
bent since last March. (Hear.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL said he was not a reformer all his
life, nor even since last March. He went out of office to
prevent the agitation of the question, thereby giving the
best proof that he was not a reformer. Be opposed the bill
on principle, and should continue to oppose it. He felt that
she measure was much mete extensive than the people called
61.1.8nd, be was confident, much more extensive than Mr.
=ans had contemplated bringing forward when in op.
Mr. BARING. said he was a reformer all his life—not
since last Mirch..end had voted for the resolutions of relent
at various times brought forward in that House —he had NO
notion that any measure of reform could be brought (awed
by the present ministers that he should not fully agree in.—
It was impossible to suppose that such a body could
I have brought forward such an alteration—be might say
subversion of the constitution. The Attorne -General
and the Chancellor of the Exchequer dist • argued
consthia
that if they did not restore the old 11111
would make a better. They would take thik deem
in the lottery of amstitutlons, in the expectation at draw.
log a prise. His Majesty bad recommended kali
Men the throne, that they should carefully attend Test
principles of the constitution. The constitution now • goa.
posed to be given to the country never had been the son ti.
neon of the country, and he defied any one to show Mask
history the (*.existence of such a house of repreouttadive
'tithe monarchy. The present Ministers might be the best Min
stitution.makers in the world, but they had produced aamodis.
tion such as never before existed in this or any other wassy.
His hon. friend the member forNorvich had told his emu&
tutus the peers nominated one half the members of that lentil
Taking this statement to be correct, the Government had
hitherto consisted of a King, a House of Peers, and albino
of Commons, ate-half nominated by the Peers, the odue
half cleated by the people: was there no danger.
Mahler such *change as taking the whole of their
lion frons-dia 'Peers and giving it to the people ? (Has)
Woe them DO danger ibat the people might use such an be.
crease of power, not merely for the destruction of the Aria.
tearer', but for their own ? (Year, bear.) To wouplain of
the sake( seats in that house was, in his *Nisi. cant and
hypoitity. He had never trafficked in. seats, sec paid six.,
pence for a vote. (A kt) What was the pulled
consequence of the sale P Ewes anallimfal noel mgt, who
did not choose to take the trouble ass election auseset, pur••
chased a seat for 4 de 6,000 L or seeks Ash meta ant dm
East Indies or the West Indies, purchusliamitmeiheought
valuable information into the house. Was use sash nos at
likely to be intiepsdint as those who pined the new et
rs 101. vote, by Ending fault with all the insetadeas at the
country ? Was such a purchase and sale to he called me.
ruption when compared with what had achma at Live&
pool where the most bed ben
practised amongst near ti. et vents as the
present bill went to constitute. - (Hear, heart hem)
Alter the passing of the present bathes would be such aft
extent of corruption as was newer hire known in this
couotry.r...(Hear, hear.) , lir. Cinhurt advice to the
House and to the ebutry. when there was a spilt of change
aimed, ins, cling to the institutions of your coonir
bow the blessings you so*, and width you may k=
pa do- net bow what is to be primal.—(Hear, hera.).—
The pram Meister' new that a spiels debug, was abottii,
•but•iustead at restraining it they imastusgel it.—(Boll.}o
lie had never heard say one pesos speak of the pm*
11111 beret that Haase--many of them aseMimes—lft Al
me uprose their surprise at its aseato—(Hom hentoillni
The moment We alliance was famed ligaila the it ma,
i , il ~
i•:: . . ;

and the Radicals it was plain that the opinion of the re-
Iketing portion of the people would be overpowered.—
(Hear, hear, bear.)
Mr. R. GRANT said the hon. gentleman had alluded to
some report of what fell from him at the hustings before
his constituents. On that occasion he vainly looked for
any antagonist who would avow and support the opinions
nose supported by the hon. gentleman. (Hear, hear:, He
did not say that half the tuenabers of that House were elected
by Peers ; but he did tell them that the influence of Peers
in the nomination of members of the Heim of Commons,
was boldly defended, and he did state, that the people de.
sired to see in that House &representation of the people, and
not an out-house of Peers. (Hear.)
Mr. MA BERLY said. he had never heatd so greats de-
viation from the question before the house. (Hear.) The
hon. member for Callinston (Mr. Bating) had delivered a
speech, every-word of which he had delivered in that house
three times before. (Hear, hear.) They should keep to the
question, which was the disfranchisement of Blechingley. It
was notorious that those boroughs were sold, and the eight
borough members of Surrey destroyed the effect of its popular
representation. -and he should vote for the disfranchisement
of them all. (Hear, bear.)
Mr. DENISON said, he had the honour of presenting
petitions from all the towns of Surrey against the nomina-
tion boroughs. The people of Surrey were indignant at
being taxed by asecond Chamber of Peers. instead of their
own representatives. (Hear, hear.) There was no jealousy
amongst the people of the constitutional privilege of the
peers; but the people were jealous of their returning mem-
bers to that house, and would no longer submit to it.—
( Hear, hear.)
The CHAIRMAN put the question, which was agreed
to without a division. _ _ _ _

The next question was, " That the borough of Borough.
bridge stand part of Schedule A." (A roar of laughter.)
Sir C. WETHERELL said those who expected that the
member for Boroughbridge would defend it, would find
themselves mistaken. He defended the case of Borough.
bridge in defending Blechingley, and he hoped the noble
lord opposite (Lord Palmerston) who was an advocate for
reciprocity, would now defend Boroughbridge. Borough.
bridge was a burgage tenure borough, having about seventy
electors. He had the distinct admission of the noble lord
and of the Attorney General, that the representation of the
burgage tenure boroughs was now the same as it ever was,
and that with respect to them the bill was not a reform, but
was an alteration of the constitution. Conceiving it would
be a waste of the time of the committee to go over the same
ground he should not do it, but in another stage of the bill
he should take the sense of the house on what he considered
a large principle of the bill.
Lord PA LBIERSTON said, he should not enter into the
question of Boroughbridge. The honourable and learned
gentleman called on him to give his support to Borough-
bridge. He could not give that support—on the contrary,
he felt bound to assist in consigning it to the same tomb in
which they had just laid Blechingley. (Hear, hear.) If the
hon. gentleman objected to the bill, on the ground of its
not being a restoration of the constitution, he was willing to
accept of his assistance, if be would admit It to be improve-
ment. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. ATTWOOD said he would not offer any argument
on the case of the borough of Boroughbridge, because the
arguments of his learned colleague in the case of Blechingley
remained unanswered. (Hear.) But on the part of the elec-
tors, convicted of no crime, he denied the right of the house
to do what they were now about to do, and on the heads of
his Majesty's ministers be all the consequences. (Hear.)
The resolution was agreed to without a division.
The next resolution was, that the borough of Bossiney
stand part of schedule A.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said the borough certainly was de-
ficient in the required number of inhabitants, therefore he
should not detain the house.

The resolution was agreed to.
The next resolution was that the borough of Bradley
stand part of Schedule A.
Capt. BRADSHAW said, though by the population te-
turns of 1821, the population of Brackley was under
2,000, yet by the last population returns, it was more than
2,000. If it had been more than 2,000 in 1821, and had
decreased below that Dumber in 1831, it 'should under the
bill have one Member; and he thought it unreasonable that
it should be deprived of both its Members under such cir-
cumstances. It was not a nomination borough.
The resolution was agreed to.
The next Resolution was, that the borough of Bramber
stand part of Schedule A.
Sir C. WETHERELL said they were going on at a
radical pace. (A great laugh.) They were proceeding
rapidly in the week of desolation. (Hear.) He thought as
it was near twelve o'clock they might give the other con-
demned boroughs a respite. (A laugh.)
Lord ALTHORP hoped the honourable gentleman
would not delay the proceedings of the Committee.
The resolution was agreed to.
The next resolution was, that the Borough of Callingtoa
stand part of Schedule A. (A great langh.)
Mr. BARING said, as the population did not amount to
2,000, be should not trouble the Committee on the subject.
He should merely say, that there were near two hundred
voters; and since be became connected with the borough he
had never given any man a shilling for his tote, nor paid
any but the moat trifling election expenses. (Hear, hear.)
The resolution was agreed to.
The next resolution was, that the borough of Camelford
stand part of Schedule A.
Mr. MILLBANK said, he and his Colleague were re-
turned unanimously by the borough of Camelford;to vote in
favour of the Reform Bill, by which it was to be Mahan-
chised. (Hear, hear.)
Sir C. WETHERELL said the borough of Camelford
was felo de se, and should be buried in the cross-roads.
Mr. MILLBANK said the last time he paned through
Boroughbridge, he was told the Reform Bill would kill the
old gentleman. (Shouts of laughter.)
The resolution was agreed to.
The next resolution was that the borough of Castle
Rising stand part of schedule A.—The resolution was
agreed to.
The next resolution was that the borough of Code Castle
stand part of schedule A. (A laugh.)
Mr. G. BANKES said Code Castle should not die fete
de se, though be could not take it out albs noble lord's
rule, be should not detain the committee.

The resolution was agreed to.
The house resumed.
The CHAIRMAN reported progress,' and asked leave to
sit spin this day.—Leave given.
Tea fatILEN'S DOWZIL.
The Queen's Dower Bill passed through a committee.—
Hewn to be received to-morrow.
the other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Half.post Twelve o'elock.