Star.
London, England, 1802-04-01 00:00:00

doubt the Prince's title,' I am not able under the
moft unfavourable view of the queftion, to, bring
my mind to hefitate with refpea to the claim of
right, which I take to be decided ; nor can I anti-
cipate any arguments which may be ufed again(
the motion. The authority of Chief Jullice Dodde-
ridge, to which Ihave already alluded, is fo ftrongly
fupported by faCts, as to operate in a decifive man-
ner. If an objeCtion be railed on the ground of
delay, and the latenefs of the application to Parlia-
ment, I beg Gentlemen to confider with attention
the relations exilling between the Crown and the
!'rinse. In tilde relations they will clifcover jutt
and fatisfaaory catilcs for the delay. But had the
King received the revenues, I can confidently
maintain that there would not now be any queftion
of this nature before the Houle. It will, how-
ever, at all events not be denied, that the fob.
jea is entitled to our moll ferious confideration,
and in aliening that all the profits accruing from
the Duchy of Cornwall have been paid into the
Treafu ry, with the exception of the funs of r 6,0c01.
and iz,oool. only, I merely (late that which can
be fuloiantiated to the fatisfaaion of every Gen-
tleman who hears me. If any doubts (lilt re.
main on this point, I troll they will be removed
by the authority of my Right for.. Friend who
filled the fituation of Chancellor of the Etche-
quer in the year 1795. If the has which I have
!bated be undeniable ;—if the proceedings of the
Crown and of Parliament, which I have had oc-
cation to notice for feveral fucceffive reigns, be
right ;—if the inferences drawn from them be
corral ;—if I hare truly laid all thefe confeder-
ations before the Houfe, I cannot bring myfelf
to think that the Houle of Commons will deem
it confilient with their wifdom, prudence, and li-
berality, to force the Heir Apparent to have re•
coitrfe to other methods for the purpofe of dia.
bli(hing a title, to which from the infant of his
birth he has enjoyed an Undifputed claim. If I
have not erred in the grounds which I have taken,
cannot bring myfelito think that the Honfe of
Commons will be fo cruel as to reject the Prince's
title ; that any candid man will difpute, or that
any hood} man will refill his right. This mo-
tion has been inaituted at the defire of the Houle,
and his Royal Highnefs in acceding to it, has
been actuated by two motives : The one is, to pre-
vent all miiiep.-efentation or mifconception with
refpeCt to his condo°, and the other to thew his
earneß defire to Rand well with the public ; to
Thew whatever his expenses have been, whether
right or not, that he has not received as much
as he was legally entitled to polrefs. In making
there remarks, I feel it my duty to fay, that I
have been directed by the Prince to abflain from
all expreftions of complaint and difappointraent,
and that he will acquiefce molt cheerfully in any
detilion to which the Houle may come. Of
this, Sir, lie has already given the moll fatisfac.
tory pia •fs, by contenting to part with that fplen•
dour which was called C•or by his rank, by re-
ftgning a great portion of his income, and by
agreeing to live in ohfcurity. If it be Paid that
his debts are the effcit of extravagance and dif-
fipation, and I were difpoled to admit the truth of
the obfervation, let me ark, in what fphere of life
are we to look for the man who unites the caution
and coldnefs of old age with the generofity and
„ardour of youth ? If we can readily make allow-
ances for other men of a left exalted rank, let us
do fo for one expofed to more temptations and
liable to more dangers. Should the Houle agree
..to the appointment of the Select Committee, m
conformity to the motion, their next confideration
Will be to form an ellimate of the fums due to the
Prince. lam alfo authorited to fay, that it is die
'determination of his Royal Highnefs not to re-
ceive a fingle fhilling of the debt, but to have it
all appropriated to the objects (pacified in the Aft
of Parliament, for the immediate fatisfaaion of
his creditors. I with to have juaice done to him,
that he may be enabled to do juaice to his credi-
tors. But whatever the refult of the prefent mo-
tion may be, of this I am well allured, that his
Royal Highnefs will cheerfully fubmit to every
ineafure which the 1-loufe may think proper to
,adopt, fully confident that in doing juftice to the
Public, they will not be inattentive to his true in.
-tereas and the fairnefs of his claims." Mr. Sut-
ton concluded by reading his motion for the ap-
pointment of a Seidl Committee.
Sir RALPH MILBANK& feconded the motion, and
exprefted his firm conviction, that the claims of
the Noce were founded in the ftriaeft principles
of jullice, and peculiarly called for the interfe-
tenet of the Houle.
Mr.'Finxra faid it flood acknowledged on the
Journals of the Houle of Commons that the
King had no concern whatever with the Duchy of
Cornwall, Sro when in the yeat 1692, Humphrey
Morris, a Member of the Honfe, was appointed
Warden of the Stanneries, it became a queftion
whether his acceptant; of that office vacated his
Feat,
'Venues of Cornwall belonged to the Crown, and
to the Prince of Wales, unqueflionably the
TI. ife would have determined othcrwife. As
Parliament was a Court of Record, it was hound

to abide by its' on precedents, and render the
:Cone jbaice to the Prince of Wales as to any other
itraividual, when his claim was jlttlified and
jandioned by its forma precedeins. •
The CHANCE I.Loa of the Ext. lIEV R, in anfwer
to what was dated by the lion. Gi:ntleman who
Lit fpokc, obferved, that pc: tons accepting offices
under the Duchy of Lai:calker' the right to which
was undoubtedly in the king, did nut vacate their
feats in Parliament. With regard to the motion,
be fare., that if he could continently with his duty
concur in it, he Ihould certainly thi:.k it a wane
of time to occupy the attention of the Houfe, af-
* ter it had been dila:lced fo ably by the Hon. Gen-
tleman who had introduced it, and who hatl ap-.
plied to the fubjea all dune advantages which he
derived from deep knowledge, profound erudition,
` and accurate judgment. Ht could not give a
fironger prcof of the principle by which he was
'.aauated on 'the p_refent occalion, than by riling
...furnon.aftu that Hon. Gentleman. Powerfill as
. lOsl,bten the effea of the ilatement he had made
'in the had not pro-
duced a conviEtion in his mind that the Prince of

.'~..

Wales was entitled to the revenues of the bitchy
of Cornwall from the period of his irrth. Ac-
cord:lig to the view he had taken, if he was dif.
poled to acqniefce in the argument that di.: Prince
of Wales was clearly and nf right entitled to them,
(till there were contiderasions which operated for-
cibly to induce him to refit the motion which had
jull been made. The Honourable Gentleman had
:lamed the title of the Prince of Wales from the
hour of birth, and had enforced it by reference
to the Journals of the Houfe ; but if he rightly
underltood his motion, he meant to give the
Committee a power of inveftigating the right of
the Prince, as far as the Journals would enable
them fet to do, and in the event of thole Journals
affirming his right, they were to enquire into the
accounts of the revenues. He would alit whether
filch a motion as this, having two diftina objects,
had ever been fubmitted to a Committee ? The
Committee were &It to fearch the Journals to
prove the right which was contended for, and,
having found- it, were then to apply their atten-
tion to the appropriation of the Revenues. This
was a combination of duties which he never knew
referred to any Committee. The Hon. Gentleman
had gone through an ample field of precedent, but
he had proceeded upon a fundamental error, by
not applying his talents to the period of the fall
two centuries, within which the Legiflative part
of the Government had Aimed the chara&cr by
which it was charaaerized at the prefent moment.
Adverting to the practice of former Parliaments
antecedent to that period, it would be found that
many queftions had been decided between private
perfons upon principles contrary to thole which
were now recognized ; the Journals were full of
fuch intlances. The Learned Gentleman had con-
tended that the effect of the ftatute la Charles If.
was that of abolithing tenures by chivalry. He
entertained a high refpeet for his opinion, as well
as for the opinions of other eminent Lawyers,
who infifted that the Ratute of Charles the Second
aboliffied Military Tenure, and he admitted that
till Livery was granted, the Prince of Wales held
by that Tenure. But there were authors who
maintained that feifin did not of courfe imply pof-
feflion, nor livery the receipt of revenues. It was
well known that the relation of guardian in Chi-
valry exifted when the ward had livery and was
feized and the guardian, thongli livery had been
granted to the ward, was entitled to the revenues,
till recourfe had been had' by the ward to certain
legal forms. He thould Date his argument with
more accuracy by obferving, that the guardian
was entiled to the revenues after feifin, and till
livery was demanded. He begged the Houle to
underhand that he urged what he did with extreme
diffidence. He was not prepared to (peak dc-
cidedly—knowing thatdoubts exifted in the minds
of perfons much more competent than hinifelf, it
was not for him that the Houfe thould ftir a Rep
upon a queftion which involved a difficult point
of law. He would not prefnme to fay what legal
meafures ought to be adopted, but fome of thofe
who were belt informed thought that a Petition of
Right was the one which it would be molt proper
to refort to. With refpea to the queftion, whe-
ther the public had received the rents of the
Duchy? it certainly was one of extreme importance.
He would afk, what proof was there that any pax
of the revenues had been fo applied ? Where were
the Journals of Parliament in which fuch an ap-
propriation could be found ? True it was, that
in 1771, an account had been prefented of feveral
films paid during the minority of the Prince of
Wales out of the revenues of the Duchy of Corn-
wall, by warrant of the Lords of the Treafury,
and applied in aid of the Civil Lift. This turn fo
applied was 94,0001. under the head of Special
Services. It did not always follow that rums paid
for Special Services were applied for the ufe of the
public. He was entitled to call upon Gentlemen
who contended the claim was againft the public,
to Thew upon what it was they founded their af-
fertion. Every one who had the happinefs of
knowing the Prince of Wales, muff give him cre-
dit for the honourable manner in which it was the
with of his Royal Highnefs the pirefent queltion
lhould be brought forward. Undoubtedly it was
the defire of his Royal Highnefs to Rand well with
the public. It was of deep importance to the
country that the condua of the Prince of Wales
fhould be, as it certainly was, above the eishtell
imputation. His Royal Highnefs had Ftvin a
decided proof of the difinteretted principle on
which he had brought forward his claim, by the
fentiments he had exprelfed through the medium
of the Hon. Gentleman who had introduced the
rubjeet, and by the affurance that if it lhould ap-
pear there were large rums due to him from the
revenues of his Duchy, they thould be oppored
to thofe he had received from the public.—
It was material that the real Date of the advances
to his Royal Highnefs out of the Civil Lilt thould
be known. It was with reluctance he brought
them forward, but having only • one great object
in view, that of truth, he was compelled by his
deity not to keep them back. He was of opinion,
' if a proceeding founded upon his claim took place
in a Court bf'Judicature, it would not alfume the
chara&er of a litigious proceeding. He proceeded
to Rate the rums paid to his Royal Highnefs, as a
fixed allowance during his minority, out of the '
Civil Lift. The aggregate of the (urns in the courfe
Of t s years was 128,4201. betides extraordinaries
*to the amount of 50,5521. Having contrafted the
'payments made out of the Civil Lilt with the furs
received by his Majefty from the revenues of the
Duchy of Cornwall, agreeable to an account upon
the table of the Houle, he Rated the balance in
favour of his Royal Highnefs to amount to a 7cry
confiderable rum. He obferved that it mull be
extremely gratifying to the Houle to find that the
Prince of Wales had declared his intention of ap-
plying what should appear to be due to him in
payment of his, debts. There was no man who
would feel more fatisfaaion in accelerating the
payment Oftliore debts titan himfdf. He was one
of thofe who did not think a fufficient allowance
had been made to his Royal Highnefs in the brit
inftance, when he came of age. It fhould be re-
' colleted that he entered upon that elevated Ration
-which Isis birth entitled him to without any ado-
quate means of anfweting that kale of expenditure

a

.•
which became his rank—it was to thh 'circum-
Rance his early difficult4s were to be attributed,
and therefore it could not but be the with of the
Houle, and of the public, the' the liquidation of
his debts Ihould be ::eelerated by every potlibte
means, not only with a view to the advantages of
thofe perfons who were the creditors of his Royal
Highnefs, but hecanfe it was defirable that the
Heir .Apparent filmic' be put in poffeftian of that
full revenue, without tleduaien, which the fphere
he moved in entitled him to enjoy. .It had been
truly laid by Sir Fletcher Norton, at the Bar of
the Houle of Lords, that it was not merely to the
perfon who exercifed the Sovereignty, an etlablilh-
ment Ilion'd be granted to enable him to fopport
the fplendour of his Clown, but that every branch
of the Royal Family thould polfets the means of
race-ling the dignity of the throne. It was a truth
founded- on the nature of man, and the hillory of
nations. As to the nature of the debts contra led
by his Royal Highnefc, he was entitled to fay,
from his own perfonal knowledge, that more grufs
and fcandalous mifreprefentations had never been
made on any folsjed, titan with regard to them.—
They were not of a nature which jollities' the ob-
fervations that had been made upon them—he
would not fay in the Houle, hut nut of it. The
Houfc, he trolled, would be fenlible of the reluc-
tance with which he appeared to interfere with the
with of his Royal Highnefs, to refer the accounts of
the revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall to a Corn.
mince of the Houtz of Cemmoas. He was onlyre-
lieved from the regret he flood,' other wife have x-
rerienced, by the confederation that trout the Crate-
ment he had made, a compliance with the remelt
of his Royal Highnefs, would not attain the objea
he defired. To return to the queflion of t ight, he
admitted that a guardian was not at liberty to
make Life of the income of the minor, without
duly accounting for it; but in the reeve cafe it
was necetlary to confider the circumieances that
attended the creation of the Duchy of Cornwell.
When his Majelly, King Edward the Third, ex-
preffed his intention of detaching from the Crown
the moll valuable part of his potrellion as an Edit-
blithment to fupport the dignity of his fon the
Prince of Wales, he never could have intended to
put him into the poffeffion and receipt of fuch im-
menfe revenues, and at the fame time fupport him
during his minority. If it was otherwife, if the
claim was a jolt one, he was lorry it had not been
made fooner, and certainly it ought to be acted
upon without delay. He could not avoid think-
ing at the period when the allowance to be made
to the Prince of Wales was the futile& of dilcut-
lion in Parliament, that among the many eminent
men who took part in it, if loch a refource as the
revenues of the Duchy of Cornwall had really ex-
act', it mutt have (truck tome of them—it could
not have efcaped their knowledge, as their atten-
tion was efpecially called to the fubjea. Ht was
lorry his Learned ar.d Hon. Friend in the courfe of
his obfervations fhould have Paid that.the claim for
which he was contending was one which no candid
or bonett man could deny. I-fe would airtime no
merit for his candour, but he tank credit to him-
fell for the charader of an honeft man, and yet
he felt himfelf juftified in refuting his content to
fuch a motion. But, on the other hand, it was
enough to induce the Houfe not to decide upon
his opinion, that ttiefe doubts were entertained by
thofe who were better enabled than himfelf to
form a judgment upon the fubjed. Ulm thought
the claim unwarrantable, he fhould molt affuredly
rent it altogether in the firft inftance. He did
not think himfelf juftified, under all the circum-
fiances of the cafe, in recommending fuels a mo-
tion, even if it was not liable to the technical ob-
jeCtion of combining two diftina fubjeas. He
confidered that if a wrong culled in this country
there was by the law a• means of redrefs. It
ought therefore to be afcertaincd whether the
wrong of which his Royal Highnefs complained,
was a wrong for which there was a legal remedy
or not. If redrefs could not be had elfewhere,
then an application to Parliament might be pro-
per. Till an appeal for redrefs had been made
before a legal Tribunal, competent to grant it, he
felt lie could not, confidently with his duty, fanc-
tion a motion, the objed of which was to dare
the Houle to interfere in a way not confonant
with its legiflative functions. Nothing but need-
fity, he conceived, could jußify the interference of
Parliament. He was nnwilliug to negative fuch a
prppofition, by moving the previous gelation, but
lhould conclude by moving the Order of the Day.
Mr. MANNERS SUTTON, in explaining, laid, the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had fuppofed him to
have laid, that no honelt man would refill the
Motion ; what 'he had laid was, that it he had
correctly Rated the law upon the fubjed, no can-
did or bona man would be found to refill the
claim of his Royal Highnefs.
Mr. Eits IC IN If began by profefling his attachment
to his Royal Highnefs, obferving, that highly as
he was influenced by filch a consideration, it' had
no concern in the opinion which, as a Member of
Parliament, he thought it his duty to adopt. He
had, a number of years ago, given an opinion on
the rubles.% and he Rill retained the tenements he
had then expreffed. His Learned Friend had gone
fo fully and ably into the epieftion, that he did
not think it neceffary to do more than shortly Rate
his reafons for recommending to the Houle to ac-
cede to the Motion for referring the Prince of
Wales's claims to a Committee. If the Charter
of Edward 111. had never received any conftruc-
don, or if it was capable of two conftruaions, un-
doubtedly he fhould think that the petition of right
was the proper form for his Royal Highnefs to
retort to, and that it was a fit matter for a judi-
cial &cation. He was ready to admit the Parlia-
ment had not, at the period which had been allud-
ed to, attained the cherailer it had polfelfed within
the fall two centuries, but at the I.:ime time it WAS
to be obferved, there was a material difference be-
tween a queltion referred to the decition of Par-
liament, in which private perfons were the parties,
and one between the Prince of Wales and the King.
If a private man Paid another man had taken his •
ettate, he agreed with the Chancellor of tiae Ex-
chequer, that it was a fuhjea for a judicial cicci-
lion ; but the title of the Prince of iVales to that
which was part of the inheritance of the Crown

vas diflitut It was, he eoi

coliarly fit to be referred t,
HOUIC of Commons. If a

l'fi)llS AVIIO alolliti be called

Committees, had perukd the various f Par.
liament and Documents which related in the
fub-
je.R, and tended to elucidate th. timid tinj ie
neceffary to fignify to the Hoyle, :hat it was a
queflion of doubt and difficulty, he thowd i., iiicb
cafe deem it proper to he confidAed in amehee
place. It appeared to him, that ,he runs wire,
would be (*elated to compote the Cemmittee, ilf
the prefent motion fhould he a 7: would he:
of all others the mot lithely to determine with aria
Jo (lice as to the right of the PI ince of Walce-...
rhe legitimacy of. the title of of W.:!ei,
he dated, mull have been well known to our en.
cedors, for in the reign of Henry the 'sixth, the
King, conleious of the manner in which he held
the Duchy during the minority of his fon, applied
to the I.cgifl more to autlioriie him to retain them.
Parliament invefted him with the power, and only
two years after, when the Prince of Wales was
but four years of age, a petition of right was pre-
fented to the King in Parliament, to repeal what
had been done. Though the Houle had been fo
obfequious only two years before, as toallow the
Prince toool. a year till he was eieht years of age,
and tcoo marks for his wardrobe, yet, aauated by
a fenfe of what was the undoubted light of the
Prince, it undid 'what •it had done tofire,
(bring the Duchy lice from that difmember-
ment which the fotmer AA had produced. Thefe
twu proceedings in the Sixths
reign of lltory the
!hewed what was :he opinion of the .King himfelf,
and of the Parliament, with regard to the right-of
,the Prince of Wales to Livery of the Dully of
Cornwall, from the moment of his birth In the
reign of Edward the Fourth, Or. precedent was
equally (hiking : Livery of pcfr‘tii ;; was granted
to the Prince, who was' then eight moutio. old. The
Charter of Livery recited that the Onke of Corn-
well was cnti:led to Lively the cirtti as if he hal
been. twenty-me years of age, and both the Char.
tersto which he had referred were fanaioned by
the Lords Spititnal and Temporal. Had they
been Chattels granted by the King merely from
fienifni aed ;trod' will towards the Prince if
Wales, they would not have jaaified the inference
he had drawn fi orn them ; bat recited what
was the law of the land, it therneore did appear
extraordinary that in the yeai tBo2, Pat iiantent
fhould have been in donhowith refpea to the mean-
ing of fuch a grant.. Flawing dated the cafes of
Henry the Sixth, and Edward the Fourth, he
fhould advert to that of Healy the Seventh. That
King made the fame fort of butter in favour of
the Prince of Wales with the affmt of his Parlia-
ment. Upon the birth of the Prince, iie.ry was
granted him—afterwards zyool. was t iken front
his revenues to anfwer the prelfure (,f the times,
and the Aa of Parliament authorizing it was af-
terwards repealed, and the money redored. Thus,
from the reign of the Mack Prince thele had been
three confirmations of the Tigit, and no contro.
verfy. In the reign of James the 17ird, a memo'.
table circtundance occurred. Upon the death of
Prince Henry, when Charles- the Filet, his fon.
was Prince of Wales, a doubt arofe whether he
was entitled to the Duchy of Cornwall. In the
courfe of the arguments upon that queilion, there
was not an obrervation made that did not admit
the Prince of Wales was entitled. The only que&
tion rya s, that offline primogenitne. No man doubt.
ed of Henry, had he lived, but only whether his
fon was entitled. What.was dooht,:d to Jay' was
whet oar anceders had no diaculteisling:
Could there pollioly be •any doubt what Pattie-
meot meant by raying. that a Prince of Wales was
entitled to his livery from his birth, the fame .as
if he was of fall age ? Was not the enjoyment of
the right for fo many ages a proof of its cxiitcnce?
The title of the Prince of Wales to the Dui hy of
Cornwall was a public acknowledged title—it was
la matter of hiflory, and never at any pet iod the •
fubjea of doubt. The next reign to which it was
necelfary to refer, was that of Ch.irk- the Second.
when the Itatnte paired alrolifhing te;e!al to-lures-
' It was to be oblerved, that livery of land :wore out
of feudal obligations, and when Oates were heredii.
tary, the Lord entered into polTeiTion, and retained
it till the heir fued out his livery, for which he paid
a confideration, which was called Prmier Sri/its; thi s
practice fell into dilute, for by the liatute of Marl-
borough it was enaCted, that if the heir was kept:
out of his land, he might have an Agee .of Mors
d'4uncyler, without filing out Chiler-lern,lin with
Premier &gm. So the law continued till the t eat
of Charles the Second, which related only to te..
nures by military fervice, grand and ptit jerjeantry,.
and certain others. He wilhed the Houle to feel
whether livery was necelfary of land hell by tenures
comprehended within that datute ; with that view
the Learned and Honourable Member read the
(haute, and commented upon it. He obferved that
tenure by Knight's fervice, by which alone•ward-
fhip ever exiled, was done away by that flatute
which bound the Crown, becaitte it was feecially
named in it. If Knights .feivice was taken away,
and all other Cervices that required livery, he was
at a lots to know why livery was neceflary. George
the Second, as Prince of Wales, had no livery,.
Frederick, Prince of Wales, had no livery. Ao
account was rendered to them of the revenues dare
hog their minority. Why then fhould the Heufe
make a difiinaion with regard to the peeftot nine;
of %%Tales ? If the I.)rm of livery was neceilary, is
was an exception from the (haute c‘ Charles watt
refpe.b to this particular elate. Ile knew of no.
thing that diftinguilhed the cafe of the King and
the Prince, but the one reported by !!lie Judiee
Fortefcue, where there was the opinion cf ten
Judges againft two upon the queflion referred to
them refpeaing the right of the King to the Go-
vernment of his child, and the approhatiun of his
nein iage. Upon the whole, the otte;Lion appeareC
to him not of deebtful interpretation, but that it
had been fettled and acknowledged item age te.
age. He thought it would be placing the Prim-
of Wales in a very unfavoltrable point of view t.
involve hint in a private litigation with his Majett; .
He obfcrved that h,e had conlidercd the fulajed wit
the•allidance of feverai learned-Lawyers, and pail -
ticularly with Mr. MansGe/di wi o op:11:ca


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