Star.
London, England, 1830-02-17 00:00:00

GREECE.

Lord JOHN RUSSF:LI, said, in rising to bring forward the
question of which I have given notice, 1 beg leave to state, that in
proposing it my object has been rather to obtain a declaration from
the right honourable gentleman opposite than to enter on any hostile
discussion on this subject. The events that have recently passed,
and the explanations lately given in another place by the mi.l
sisters of the crown, have tended a good deal to meet the views I
had in bringing forward the motion. 1 am very glad that, by what
has already taken place, I am relieved from the necessity of found.
ing this motion on the history of the late war between Russia
and Turkey, for I fed how difficult it would have been to un.
derrake such a discussion without having access to those papers
which his majetay's government alone at present ponces ; but
there are one or two points with regard to the settlement of
Greece—which settlement must in a few days take place—,
that call for some explanation. The first regards the form of
the government that is intended to be established in Greece.
On this point there have been sinister rumours circulated with re.
spect to the intention of the Allied Powers, who it is said, had in.
tended to introduce a despotic government into Greece. I am happy
to say that these rumours have been dispelled by the declarations re.
eently made by one of the Secretaries of State, and I hope that the
right hon. gentleman will have no objection to renew that declare-
tion, and will slate that his majesty's government has no intention
to interfere to prevent the. Greeks front governing themselves, ae.
cording to their wishes and their wants. Such a declaration would
gratify me exceedingly ; for while, on the me hand, there is nothing
more odious than the introduction, by such a nation as this, of a
despotic government into any country ; so on the other hand, I am
aware how difficeit it is to adapt any constitution to a people come
posed of a number of different classes of men, whose habits and origin
ae- tsentially die:Ft:n(l and I therefore see no course that is likely
to be effectual in establishing a permanent government in Greece,
except by consulting the Lelings of the people who are to be
ruled by it. At the seine time, l feel as an Englishman, and
sr a citizen, of a free country, that as a new state is to be
established, freedom—political fseedoin—should be a conatttuent
part of the principles on which its government is to be established.
£here is anodic: point of a more doubtful nature to which I will
now ;diode. I mean the question of the territory to be given to
Greece. I can state to the !mime without fear of opposition, that as
the question of Greece had been taken up by the allied powers—as
it has been the object cf a treaty, and of hostile operations, iu order
to effect the settlement of its goveretnent, it is necessary that that
settlement should be such as is likely to be permanent, and that the
frontier to be given to Greece should be such as may enable her to
preserve, her independence, without a prospect of the repetition of
those evils which are stated in the preamble of the treaty of July,
1827. If that point obvious and necessary as it is, were the de-
clued policy of the government, I should hardly feel it
necessary .o make any motion on the subject; but on this
subject itself 1 Wye received information from various per-
sons of such credit and authority as to make it hardly pose
Bible to doubt what they say, that for a considerable time it was the
object of the allied governments to restrict the new state of Greece to
the Mores. When I beard this I was, indeed, surprised and disap-
pointed (for 1 speak from the t..ntirnony of those who know the fart
better than I do) ; such a limitation cf territory would make it rather
a place of refuge for freebooters and pirates than one fit to contain
the proper elements of a state able to govern and direct itself. Much
lof that sorrow I felt at this information, was, indeed, removed by the
copy of the protocol in which Arta and Volo were stated as the in-
tended boundaries of the new state on the north ; and I was the more
pleased with this declarstiot., as Sir F. Adam, whose opinion on this
subject is deserving much consideration, had stated that the coun-
try within these boundaries would poetess a good defensi se frontier.
But, after that protocol was published, and after I had heard that
opinior: I must confess it was with considerable apprehensions I
heard tie; ether arrarigenients were intended, and 7hat Arta artiVolo
were not to be the boundaries of the new 'tote. On that question I
hope to obtain either the expression in the opinion of the house, or
the declaration of the right hon. gentleman. Besides this question
of Arta and Volo, there is another relating to an opinion expressed
in another plate with respect to Candle. For my own pert I am
not prepared to say that Candia is in such a situation that
it is neasasary to insist that it should be given up to Greece;
but if it is crew that there has been war there, and that the
Greeks are in posses ion of the greater pert of that island, it is clear
that you will hazard the tranquillity and settlement of Greece, un-
less you provide at the same time for the settlement of Candle.—
There has been one assertion made which is essentially erroneous.
It has been staid, that so far from Candle having been in the post.
session of the Greeks at the time of the treaty of July, 11e27, it was
not even in a state of insurrection, and that the ineuneetion which
did arise was only in aauaequence of that treaty of the allies but 1
have been informed, and 1 bare no hesitation to name the autho-
rity from whom I derived the information-1 sae I have been
informed by Sir Edward Codrington, that when he arrived
its the Mediterranean Graham was in the possession of the
Greeks, and from that point they excited insurrection in Candle.—
With regard to Candle being directly comprehended in the treaty
of 1827, I am not prepared to say that it was • but I know of
no sulk:lent evidence to justify me in saying lac it was not.
The words used in the treaty were, " the Islands of Greece." It
was not stated what the islands were, nor was Candice actually
named; and perhaps I might go further, and gay that it was ge.
nerally supposed Condit was not included, but Samos was ; and
that island, I believe,* not to be comprehended in the new State
of Greece under the now proposed arrangements. I wish to speak
on one point more. The favourable opinion of Mr. Fox towards
Turkey was alluded to by the right honourable gentleman on
a former night, and the same opinion has likewise been
mentioned elsewhere. It Is true that Mr. Fox, or those who acted
with him (for I believe it was about the time of his last illnme), did
apes with Francs in a proposal to undertake the guarantee of Tur-
key, that neither France on the one 'hand, nor Russia on the other,
should invade that country ; but those who rely on that fact ought
to recollect the circumstances of that time, when aggressions to an
enormous amount had been made by France, which had before
then, made an.irruption into Egypt, and when it became necessary
to preserve anything like a balance of power, to agree to the pro-
Posed guarantee. That was the only course that could then be
adopted to prevent the recurrence of bar; and when, therefore, it
was proposed by France, It was the objectof England to
amps it, for it was, In fact, a guarantee against France, that
neither that empire nor Russia should be allowed to disturb
the balance of power as it was then proposed to be ad.
justed. But 1741, when Russia invaded Turkey, Mr.
Fox uttered deal ipso* the weeds of which may not have been
*weedy given, bum the willow eases of it can hardly be mistaken
—in whet he said diet be was net afraid of the 41( Rus-
sia en Turkey, in Mere is not one meeney eunieet the
@Amps oohs admis by Itempla, but in which the Is the stestniset
et bit eplebei that Semi le test power with well 'of a 8 ethers,
ball essirias liellmelitE4k in our imolai to hem political
Ike. Oak newdoe of lir. Fon, expressed mho sir.
enemimme mash mese mikes et peso. milettmg Ws die
etas yew. moe, rims alma whole wise mil helms, ar pwer! Is
Swop WI Ws ...awed. • imastiostalkabo whims' err Meg
my isthibigiaD that the t 1 Is appetwolgai Ass the enjoins of the

treaty otJuly are about to be accomplished. 1 feel the greatest
saddtWon that another state is about to be added to the family of
European nations, and that that people who for centuries have been
afflicted with the calamities, and debased by the vices of slavery,
will now take their chance of improvement from the free cont.
munication of the knowledge and the arts of other countries.
Into the feelings of those who seem to think the pacification of Eu-
rope a misfortune, I confess I cannot enter. I have nothing in
common with them. I know that in 1790, the F.arl of Liverpool
made a speech, which gained for him a high character within
these walls, in which he recommended England to support
Turkey, as a counterpoise to Austria. All I will say upon that
point is, that how fatal, or at least how dangerous, are such ape.
culations, such theories. and such wire-drawn refinements, on the
preservation of the balance of power, has been established by
our own experience. (Hear.) Supposing them, however, to he
well-founded, when we look to the advantages gained for 510_
davis, Wallachia, Servia, and, last of all, for Greece; when
we witness the attainment of freedom from thraldom, and the pro,.
pent of increased commerce, and increased knowledge from commu
nication between that country and the rest of Europe, we car not
re-
gret that that balance had been disturbed. Putting those political
refinements out of eight, it cannot be said that England; ass frit: and
commercial country, will not have gained by the late eatablishmem
of peace in the east of Europe. To those wo do not participate in
these opinions, I will say that I never will consent to be classed with
those who think that the improvement of mankind in any part of
the globe, and in any manner can be hostile to the interests of Great
Britain.

" Dii meliora piis,:crroremque hostibus ilium."

1 have now only to conclude by reading my motion :—" That this
house learns with satisfaction, that his Majesty hat. recently con.
certcd with his Allies, measures for the pacification and final settle.
ment of Greece; and it trusts that his Majesty will be enabled, a!
an early period, to give such information as may explain the courts:
his Majesty has pursued in this important trant.action.
" That it is the confident hope of this house, that such finul st t.
thment will be found to secure to Greece territory sufficient r It.-
tional defence; and that the government will be provided v ur fall
powers to adopt those institutions which are suited to 0, wil.cs
wants of the people."

31r. Secretary PEEL: Notwithstanding the peculiar ClTCUlll-
atances in which l am placed, I trust that I shall be enabled to give
such general explanations to the noble lord as may induce him to
be of opinion that it is not necessary to take the sense of the house
upon his motion. I say that Imu placed under peculiar circum.
stances, because the house will recollect that on the first day of the
session, in the speech front the throne, his majesty stated, that
in conjunction with his allies, and in conformity with the treaty ot
July 6, he was on the point oft. including a final arrangement for the
pacification of Greece, anti for the deteriiiination of its relations with
the rest of Europe; and his majesty was pleased to add, that all the
papereconnectedwith that arreneement.eufficient to explain the course
he had' taken, should be laid before parliament at an early period.
In my official capacity I ant, of course, cognisant of flow papers ;
and 1 cannot help thinking that nothing could be more ieeonvenient
than for me at the present moment to be drawn into an untimely
discussion which may involve that information of which etc long
the house will be in possession. Were I drawn into such a discus.
sion, I do not know how I could avoid availing myself of that in.
formation, thus obtaining an advantage in debate which others do
not enjoy. I therefore trust that the object of the noble lord will be
attained, although I do nut cuter Into that discussion, but if it
should hereafter arise, and if the noble lord should deem it ne.
ceseary to take the sense of the house, I hope that the forms of
the house will nut prevent my offering some further oliservetior.s...
(hear, hear.) The noble lord avows that his main object is, if pos.
sible, to procure an explanation on two points, which he deems cf
pressing importance. First, the nature of the instieutions provided
by the allies for the future government of Greece ; second, the tern.
torial limits to be assigned to the new state. On the five poiet, I
apprehend I shall be enabled to give complete satisfaction. 1 assure
the noble lord, that in the arrane,emen a the bases of which have been
laid by the allies, who are parties to the treaty of the Gth July, al.
though the noble lord seems to have heard rumours to the contrary,
no attempt ints been made to dictate despotic monarchy to Grace.
No provision is made in the ateangements which can cantroul the
establishment of such institutions as may be compatible with the
present situation of Greece. I can also venture to disclaim, ea-
tainly or the part of my own country, and, I believe on the part of
France and Russia, any wish to interfere with the formation of
such institutions as are best calculated to secure the liberty and
promote the happiness of Greece (cheers). Into the second point,
which relates to the limits of the new State, I can scarcely
enter without an haringement of the principles to which I re-
ferred at the commeueement of my observations. On the 22d of
March was issued a Protocol, to which the noble lord referred, and
which in some way or other obtained publicity in the continental
Journals, relating to the limits of Greece, and the noble lord has
.expressed his apprehensions that the bour.daries now about to be
assigned will be ices titan those mentioned in the Protocol. I feel
that the present is hot the occasion for entering into the details, but
I can venture to assure the noble lord, that the arrangement now
in progress for the independence, happiness and security of
Greece is, in my opinion, much more favourable that: that
which was contemplated iu the `Protocol.---(hear.) The tern.
tonal limits,nay be has exteneive: but the compensation fir the
more confined limits will, I think, be found ample. The noble
lord jnstly observes, that it must be the policy of those countries
which entered into the treaty of 6th July, to give Greece such so
curie y as in her infancy will protect her them foreign inierference;
lie, therefore, wishes that she shall have a frontier capable of being
easily defended. It mar be sufficient for me to assure the
Noble lord that there is no such limitation cf the new State
as he appears to believe is contemplated that the boute.
daries will be for more extensive than the 3lotea (hear,
hear, hear!) and that it will include all those places with which
our historical recollections arc gratefully associated, and that the
nature of the frontier will in a considerable degree afferd the moms
of defence. Bet the question of limits is of much Ices importance,
provided those states which entered into the Treaty of the oth
July have completed that atrangement, which we hope will be
fulfilment of that engagemente.-provided also, that those
states, under whose fostering ate this new rovernmeet is
to be established, feel that interest in its prosperity which
will induce them, until its resources are of themselves sole.
elate, to undertake the guarantee of its independence (hear)
With regard to the anxiety of this country to support the govern.
meat of Turkey, it would be recollected by the noble lord, that on a
former occasion some sarcastic remarks had been mole upon the
supposed attachment of ministers to Turkish inethitioue—ets if, tss.
Mike they did not wish for the dinmembennent of the Ottoman
power, they necessarily admired its institution.. At thee time I pro.
tested against any such inference, and I added that 1 thought 1
could prove, by the opinions of statesmen strongly attached to liberty
and libetal institutions, that it was possible to entertain a ,iesist to
preserve the integrity of Turkey without the implication that it sir
fit to support its system of Internal government. The noble lent
has spoken of the opinion entertained by Mr. Fox In !Jill, bet
in 1806 the circumstances of Europe were certainly mochas mint:wet
Mr. Fox to think that it was for the general interest of Europe.—
for the sake of the preservation of the tranquillity of the world, that
the independence of Turkey should be secured. There was another
proof of the opinions of Mr. Fox on this subject, which I did not
bring forward. In the course of the discussions with the Finch
government in 1806. • proposition 'remade by Prince Taileyrand,
that some compensation should 'he made to Sicily, by the establish.
meet of a new state, consisting of Albania and the Morel.
Mr. Fox protested against this proposed dismemberment of
Turkey, contending that it ought to be part of the policy or Great
Britain, France, and Russia, to present the integrity of the Terkisb
power. Mr. Fox, therefotee attached great importance to the 'main-
tenance of Turkey as an independent state; but I hope that the men.
don of this topic will not tend to introduce discussion. I did not on
a former day mean to state Mr. Fox's view, as to tile general ars-
tem of European policy. I only wished to show by that instance,
that public men, in accordance with the example of their predeces-
sors, .night attach importanes.ep 'the preaervetion of the integrity of
Turkey, without necessarily interring that they approved the eye.
tent of internal government in Turkey--(hear. hear.) If the
noble lord had brought `forward his motion in a leotila
manner ; if he hiniself%ad not said that he rather Its.
adduced it In order to procure from ministers such an answer ate!
such information as they could give consistently with their duty;
end if I thought he meant to press it to division, 1 should feel
under the necessity of at once opposing it; but considering the pro-
mise of the crown at the earliest period to afford information, I do
not think there is any thing in the complicated relations of this
country with regard to Greece, u they have existed during the
last three years, to entitle this house so far to withhold he
confidence from the present servants ot the crown, end to un-
dertake to express an opinion briers It has obtained the informs.
tion on which an opinion ought to be founded. (lieu, hear.)
I beg the house to recollect that when the present govern-
ment (I mean the administration of the Duke of Wclliugton)
came Into office, they found the treaty of the6:ll July in existence;
the objects of the treaty were necessarily vague and imperfect, but
the intention of it was to apply an immediate remedy to an envy-
mous evil affecting the interests of every commercial country.
Although we were not the authors of that treaty, yet through-
out the whole progrose•of its execution, we were as desirous to
fulfil Its objects in the spirit of the treaty as Mr. Canning himself.
What were the facts? Shortly after the accession of the Duke of
IVellington to power, one of the parties to the treaty found herself,
on rounds quite extrinsic, involved la war with Turkey.
Acting the sight of Russia to enter into that was we did not pro-
ms,. -but left bar to pursue the line of poll,' she deemed h right so
take. It boon Gild that toy noble friend at the head of the a-
bbot, and the govertrutest irstrally, wets in mans respects reopen-
sibk for the preeipitadose aced rashness with which Turkey ean.