Star.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

,• 71...2 •••

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I do not, however, undervalue the manifestations of
regard from any portion of my countrymen, but in respect
to the Question of Catholic Concession, I bave ever
viewed it not alone as it affected those it went to relieve,
hut for the sake of the interest, happiness, and security
of the whole country. It is because I think I can spew
that the present state of things has been brought about
by temporary expedients ; it is because I think I can
shew, that when those causes shall be removed, the
consequences which have resulted from them will
cease; it is because I think I can shew that what
we ought to do, we ought to do with care and
circumspection ; it is because I am not of opinion
that we can accomplish everything 3t a single blow.
Of that opinion 1 have been cured by my recollection
of the folly we committed in 1813, when' we might
have had a Bill containing every concession to the
Catholics but seats in Parliament, which Bill, in a pet,',
we threw up. From that hour I have never ceased to
regret the course which we, the friends of the Catholics,
adopted on that occasion. From that moment the
Catholic Question has been losing ground :
Ex illo fluere ac retro sublapsa referri apes Danaum."
I trust, Sir, it may yet be recovered. As one means of
that recovery, the removal of the Catholic Association
appears to me to be indispensable, and if that Associa.
lion should remove itself, I shall then think, indeed.
that it has been productive of the greatest good to Ire•
land, by giving occasion for a measure so beneficial m'
I am convinced the present w ill prove (Hear, hear). The
Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst the cheers of
the llouse.
Mr. BROUGHAM assured the House that in rising
at the close of a very long-protracted debate, he felt
most anxious to compress his observations. lie wished
to call the attention of the House to the main point of
argument, and therefore he should grapple with the
questio-, stripping it of all the extraneous matter, and
those personal topics which should not be introduced
in Irish affairs. He was a defender and advocate of
the Catholic Association. He should contend for the
right of the Roman Catholics to meet, deliberate, re-
monstrate, and demand those privileges which be-
longed to the Constitution. His hope was, that his opi-
nion would reach Ireland. Whilst they deliberated and
remonstrated with due regard for the laws, they acted
legally. Without blinking the question, he -should
admit the Catholic Association had faults. He said
that not for the purpose of gaining popularity, which
he was ready to give to the wind, like the Right Hon.
• Gentleman. He might ask w hat were the faults andl
charges against the Catholic Association ? It was said.
that so far from being the safety-valve in the heated
apparatus woi king in Ireland, they were the cause of
danger to the Irish Government. Without a Com-1
miner of Inquiry, or a green bag full of papers, his
Majesty's Government, contrary to the usual practice,
were preparing, a law to abridge the liberty of the peo-
ple of behind. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then
examined the charges made against the Catholic As-
sociation, and adverted to the prosecutions in which
the p irties were acquitted. He (Mr. Brougham) drew
an inference from information he had received froni.,l
the leading Counsel in those prosecutions, that justice,
had not been done. In the accounts they had received
of both those transactions, there had been an extra3r-i
dinary omission of the name of the Judge who tried
the accus.ed. The Judge, Mr. Baron M'Clelland, had
refused to permit an important question to be put to one of the
witnesses. Should he still be told that justice was administered in
I relandwith thesame decency, the same rectitude, the same freedom
from passion and partiality, the same propriety and temper, as in
England? Ile rejoiced that the two friends of Irish justice were
before him—those two learned and worthy brethren, who had
so much delighted them on more than one occasion—who were the
Pylades and Orestes of the Irish Courts of Justice, and sung their
praises in happy ulli tt
" Arcades ambo,
Ist cantare pares et respondere parati."
With respect to the Assoc'at ion, its Proceedings had lean compared
with the system of 1782, the jacobitism of 1793, and the open
rebellion of 1798. So that by this ratio the wound given to the puttl'...
peace was only great because
" ---- it was small."
To which must be added, the response which was given to that
very sensible complaint,
" Then %would be greater wereilsere none at all."
It was a farce to compare the Association to the Bridge-street
gang. The paper in which the words were used, "by the hate
you bear to Orangemen," conveyed nothing more than a natural
expression of dislike to an.adverse party. The Catholics were to be
put down by the Orsigemen. That circumstance naturally occa-
sinned expre-sions not uttered in the smoothest strain. An Hun.
Member in that I louse had said that night, if he was on his death-
• bed he should wish the Catholics to succeed. That was a strong I,
expression. A Right llononmbk Gentleman had said he loved
his connection, but if the independence of his country was in ques-
tion, he would fling assay connections and hug.his country to his
bosom. This was said by an honest Irishman, but it was too
strong. The Honourable Gentleman was shoving his indepen-
dence, hut were he to follow up his threat he would be a rebel.—
These things proved that words were dropped in debate which
could not be justified. sir. Broughani then tdverted to the rent,
and contended that the Catholic Association, in raising money, had
only followed the example of the British Methodists. lie produced
a book containing minutes of proceeding ;in that Society, and it ap-
peared that they bad a Secretary for a Committee of Privileges—
(A laugh). The Catholic Association did nothing equal to this.—
What was right in England, was right in Ireland. Having gone
through alt the charges against the Catholic Association, he adverted
to the conduct of the Priests. He considered the Clergy the means
of preserving the peace. Before he sat down, he wished to say a few
words on Catholic Emancipation. The Right lion. Secretary had
defended himself on the charge of sitting in a divided Cabinet.—
He could not, however, avoid feeling that the Right lion. Gentle-
man might have been the menas of bringing on the question. The
Gentle-
charge he brought against the Right I lonourable Secretary was this.
Notwithstanding the service he might have done the Catholics, he
bad injured them by raising the cry of" No Popery." Thankrion !
said the Hon. and Learned Gentleman the attempt has failed. in
• some cases of popular feeling, the Government had paid but
little regard to eaisting circumstances. In the prosecution against
tl e late Queen, no attention was paid to public feeling. The
Government never paused one instant in that disgusting corn se.—
'Subserviency and baseness upon that occasion were remarkable.
The Members of a Russian Cabinet, that of a Ferdinand the
Seventh, or the slaves of Algiers with the bow-string twanging in
their ears, never were more devoted. They disregarded the public
voice, and promoted an odious prosecution. If he wanted any ar-
gument in favour of the Catholic Claims, he found it in the speech
of the Attorney-General for Ireland, who said he supported the
Bill, because the Catholic Question was not cede& ,
GOUCJURN rose to reply, at half-past two
morning. lie assured the House that he
brief in his observations; nor should he
ill to address them at such au hour, and
:ratted and fatiguing a debate, were it not
pose of reputing the charges brought against
by Honourable and Learned Member for
;h (Sir Jas. Mackintosh), .the Honourable
Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Brougham),
,onourable Baronet opposite (Sir F. Burdett).
able Members had thought fit to charge
rtlig suppressed some of the facts connected
cases he had introduced into his opening
with having given a colour to others which
anted. Now, he begged to remind the
, when he mentioned those cases, he stated
acted some circumstances which were not

r

material to his argument; for it was-in--support of thr
alone that he had related them 9t all. He had stated
that he brought them forward for the purpose i> f stew-•
ing the actual interference of the Catholic Associationl
with the administration of justice, anittfie effect 6f that
interference. The House would bear him put when h&
recalled the fact of his having stated that it was the
effect, in prejudging the cases of men sent to trial, that
he deprecated the intervention the Association.--:
Haying, therefore, taken such pains to guard himself
against mistake or misapprehension, helhought he had.
good pound of complaint against the Honourable
Members who had accused him. In the first place,
with respect to the compliment paid to the Counsel
who conducted the case on the part of the Catholic As
sociation—if such a compliment was paid, it mattered
not. There was no necessity for him (Mr. Gotriburn)
to mention it, since it made neither for nor against his
argument. He did not know th.at it was so; but, ad-
mitting it to be the fact, he saw no one reason upon
which to ground the charge of suppressing and exag-
gerating which had been brought against him. He
repeated, that he had introduced the case merely as an
illustration of the proceedings of the Catholic Associa-
tion. Did he, therefore, deny that any Gentleman at
the Bar would conduct himself with that professional
' decorum which would obtain the apprt bettion of his
judicial superiors?—With reference to the case of the
soldier Hanley, he repeated that he believed the decision of the.
Magistrates in his favour was unanimous, and was given without
any hesitation. As to any deliberation they might have had af-
terwards, he knew nothing. But the Holt. and Learned Member
for Winchelsea, had wished to make the !louse suppose that the
conviction of the man's innocence upon the mind of Mr. Black-
burn was not so clear as he (Mr. (;oulburn) had represented
it. He would meet this charge by reading the report of
Mr. Blackburn upon that very case—(llear, hear, hear).—
The night lion. Gentleman proceeded to read the report, which
stated that the prisoner Hanley had been acquitted by the " unani-
mous decision o forty-three Magistrates, who presided on the tic-
' maim." Haying thus disposed of these charges he would not
longer detain the House ; and he begged again to say, that lie
should hot have trespasse so long, had lie rot felt himself called
upon to repel the personal accusations which had been made against
its—(Loud Cheering).
7 . Mt. BROUGHAM said, he had received his information from
the leading Counsel for the prosecution, who was a Protestant.
Mr. V. FITZG ERA I. D said, that be was on the Bench at the
trial of Hanley, and could hear witness that there was not a mo..
anent's pause as to his acquittal. The subjects which occupied the
attentionof the Magistrates in their private room, were various--
not connectedwith the case of I latilcy, and catered uywn mfrely
un account of the opportunity offered by the presence 0( so many
Magistrates of the county.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division. The nninbers were,
Fur the Motion :278
Against it . 111.1
----155
Majority . •
The Lill was then brought in by Mr: Gout.suns.
On the Motion that it be read a first time,
Mr. BROUGHAM opposed the Motion on the ground that-he
had a Petition to present from the Catholic Association, praying to
be heard by Counsel against the Bill. As this would require delay,
be could not consent to the reading of this Bill a first time,prof irate.
Mr. Secretary PEEL urged the propriety of reading the Bill
then for the first time, in order that it might be primed, and Mem-
bers have an opportunity of becoming acquainted with its provi-
sions. This was the usual course, and was not wished front any
desire to hurry the measure.
After some further conversation, it was agreed that the Bill
should be read a first time pro farina, upon an understanding that
it was not to be used as a HICAOS of expediting its passage through
the House. The second reading, it was agreed, at the request of
Mr. Ilacormtax, should be appuitited for Monday next, to which
day Mr. BROUGHAM postponed his M.ition for the Call of the I louse.
The Bill was then read a first time, ordered to-be printed, and
to be read a second time on Monday next.
The House adjourned at Finite o'CLOCK this morning.

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