Star.
London, England, 1813-05-25 00:00:00

ROMAN CATHOLIC BILL.

The Order of the Day for the further consideration
of the Report on the Roman Catholic Relief Bill was
read, and the Bill being recommitted,
The SPEAKER rose and spoke to the following
effect :—‘, It appears to me, upon the fullest consi-
deration of the subject now before the Committee,
that there never was one submitted to them which
• made it incumbent on them to proceed with so much
caution and deliberation. The ostensible object of
the Bill, the various clauses of which we are now to
consider, is the admission of Roman Catholics to po-
litical power in a Protestant State.—(Hear, hear).—
The Right Hon. Gentleman who was must active in
bringing the measure to its present state, and who
was among the principal of thole concerned in fra-
thing the Bill, has himself said, that the real object
of it should be to conciliate and satisfy both those
who seek for security, and those who seek for power;
he has even said, that unless mutual conciliation and
satisfaction were the result of it, it would not be de-
sirable that it should pass.—(Hear, hear). —Now
what prospect is there that such conciliation and sa-
tisfaction will be the result.—(Hear, hear).—What
do the Catholics in Ireland say to it ? Does the
Board which sits in Dublin, and which may be con-
sidered as the organ through which their sentiments
are conveyed, approve it ?—by no means. The most
distinguished leaders of the Catholics, who form part
of that Board, the auxiliary delegates, have loudly
declaimed against its provisions. Are the Catholic
Clergy satisfied ?—not a whit more than the Board.
Dr. Troy, the titular Archbishop of Dublin has de-
clared, that it contains provisions worse than the old
Veto. There is an Apostolical Vicar of the See of
Rome in this kingdom, who is also the accredited
ag:mt for the Irish Roman Catholics. What does he
say to it ?—why, that all good Catholics should sooner
lay down their lives than agree to it. I do contend,
that under circumstances such as these it would be
vain to look to any beneficial results from its passing
into law ; and that its only effect will be, if it does
so pass, to open a door to collisiOn and conflict—
( Hear, hear).—W e are now to examine clauses which
appear to me introductory of a system at war with
principles hitherto considered as fundamental in the
Constitution. It is allowed indeed now, that the
claims which have been put forward are not founded
upon abstract right, and that Parliament has a right
to make such regulations in the civil and religious
affairs of the people as may scent expedient. Let
us then inquire how far the clauses of the present
• Bill are entitled to that character. It is a position
assented to by the wisest of mankind, that the civil
authority of the State should be vested in such per-
sons who go to compose its population as may con-
form to the religion established in it ; but that, on
the other hand, that a conformity to the religion of
the State should not be required in a greater degree
than is necessary to afford it security. The measure
of danger being thus made the measure of exclusion,
doubtless we should exclude all those from the power
of the State who dissent from its religion, but at the
same time bestow on them the most ample toleration.
For the space of one hundred and twenty years we
have regulated our conduct towards the Protestant I
Dissenters upon this principle--not admitting them
A fully to the power of the State, because some danger,
whether real or supposed, was apprehended from
doing so, yet admitting them in that degree which
was considered not to militate against our safety ;
and on the same principle have we guarded in the
same manner against the alleged danger which would
arise from the admission of Roman Catholics. With
respect to the Protestant Dissenters, they are admit-
ted, by certain legal provisions, to Parliament, and
to most of those privileges for which the Catholics
now sue. I ,7oncurred with the late Mr. Wyndham,
when he, on a former occasion stood forward as their
advocate, and still think the indulgences they enjoy
have been merited by their tried loyalty and peace-
able demeanour. Is the case similar with respect to
the Catholics ? It is alledged, whether truly or falsely,
that their principles have undergone no change ; for
-any own part, I must profess that I am one of those
who think that the allegation is well founded—and
;guage of the late Mr. Burke, I will
;elusion from power in Church era
less than a just and necessary provi-
land in the army and navy I think
nnittecl, distinguishing, as I do, the
of the State, from that which is
Ital to its maintenance and preserva-
erseuual power and jurisdiction of

the State the/ must be excluded, if we mean the
Constitution to be safe ; but there is rio man here
would go further than him who has uttered this sen-
timent, in throwing open to them all such rewards
and honours as they may enjoy, without injury to
Church or State, as well as securing the bleisings of
the most liberal toleration. Bat to what do the pro-
visions of the present Bill go ? In the first place,
they give them seats in both Houses of Parliament,
and open to them nearly all the Offices of the State.
Nov, as to their admission to Parliament, it seems
to be admitted, both by those who support and those
who oppose their claims, that every other ulterior
object they may have in view will follow the attain-
ment of this as matters of course.—(Hear, hear).—
Their talents have been insisted upon ; those talents 1,
they will not fail to exert as leaders in Parliament,
and when we should see them exerting them in that
capacity and in the capacity of Ministers—when we
should see in them so dangerous a combination of
means and motives, should we not have to appre-
hend that their views must be gratified—that they
would have recourse to violence to gratify them ?
It is a clear proposition, that when they sit here they
must become the confidential servants of the Crown,
and if with the power then vested in them they should
incline to the popular party in the State, it is impos-
sible to shut one's eyes to the fact, that a mass of
strength such as they would bring to it would not in
a high degree endanger the Constitution.—(Hear).—
All, then, they wish to have, must inevitably be
granted them if their present claims be acquiesced in.
And, here, be it permitted me to say, that I should
not conceive it the least evil that would in all proba-
bility result from their admission to this place, that
we should no longer see within its walls many of
those now present who will vote for their admission.
(Hear, hear.)—So much it appears to me may be
fairly said with respect to their having the doors of
Parliament thrown open to them. In the Privy
Council their influence and the evils to be apprehended
from it would be analogous and equally alarming.
We now come to the consideration of their proposed
admission to judicial offices. Let it be admitted that
such offices of this nature as they might be appointed
to would be as ably administered as it is possible
they could be administered, still they would not give
11 the same satisfaction to Protestant suitors as would
be afforded by a Protestant Judge, and if justice is not
administered so as to give satisfaction there is no jus-
tice at all. Upon these grounds I shall resist their
admission to judicial offices. As to military employ-
ments, those I have already said I would wish to be
laid open to them in the fullest extent. Let their
career be as ample as it can be made, and the honours
of the profession showered on them in all abundance,
those offices only being placed beyond their reach
which involve in them any portion of what may be
termed the essential power of the State. With re-
spect to the other offices which might devolve on
them by the favour of the Crown or in consequence
of corporate rights, I am disposed to think with the
Noble Viscount who recently expressed his opinion
on this subject, that the Catholics should be left in the
same circumstances as other non-conformists who
enjoy such offices by virtue of a bill of indemnity.
The same rule I should think might be conveniently
adopted with respect to independent members of uni.
versities, that is to say, Catholics should be excluded
in all cases in which other non-conformists are ex-
cluded, and admitted in all cases in which they are
admitted. Having now noticed my chief objection to
the Bill, I have further to observe, that I have to
complain of the omission of much that should have
formed part of its contents. I think that it should
have contained provisions imposing some restraint on
the religious establishments which are to be found in
the country, and guarding against, their increase.—
(Hear, hear.)—We have establishments of Benedic-
tines, of Fransciscans, of Dominicans, of almost every
monastic order, and there are now lodged at Stony-
hurst certain funds for the use of the order of Jesuits,
which appear to me to constitute an object of jealousy
sufficient to arouse the vigilance of the State the least
inclined to suspicion. From Maynooth students are
constantly sent to Sicily for ordination, and, on their
return, they are entrusted with the education of youth.
Now that all this should exist, and that all considera-
tion of it should be excluded from the Bill cannot
but be regarded as forming a strong ground of ob-
jection to it. Again, it has left untouched the prac-
tice of spiritual excommunication ; instances of the
evils springing from which will be recollected in the
year 1731, evils which were deeply lamented by the
English Catholics. Surely this was a fit subject for
the attention of the Gentlemen who undertook to
frame the Bill. But I have even to complain that
there are concessions omitted which leave the Bill
very imperfect. Why was there not a provision to
establish the right of the Catholic soldier to attend to
the service of his own church, a subject we have heard
so much of in the House ?—(Hear, from the Opposition
benches.)—Why was there not a clause abolishing the
law which makes it compulsory on Catholics to so-
lemnize their marriages in Protestant Churches ?
Why not another to protect their places of worship
from insult ?—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The fact is, that
toleration was not the object of the framers of the
Bill, what they wanted to give the Catholics was po-
litical ascendancy.—( Loud and continued cries of Hear,
hear, from the Treasury benches.)—In their views I can -
not acquiesce. I must repeat that I think, and my
opinion is supported by the authority of Mr. Burke,
that the adoption of them would go to effect a change
' in the political system of the State, such as would
shake the whole fabric of the Constitution. If we
grant the claims we abandon a principle which, once
abandoned, there is no point round which we may
rally when we have discovered our error. We must
resist the mischief in the breach, or it will be irresisti-
ble. When the tide by its first influx has sapped a
portion of the mound the partial dilapidation may be
yet susceptible of repair, but if that be neglected till
at full flood the waters rush through the chasm, we
shall then, in vain, deplore the infatuation that pre-
vented us from securing ourselves from their violence,
while it was yet possible to do so. I now come to
that part of the Bill which affects to provide securi-
ties for the Church and the State; these consist
partly of an oath and partly of restriction in the ap-
pointment of the Roman Catholic Clergy, and on
their intercourse with the See of Rome. Now the
operation of this oath on the minds of such persons
of the Catholic Religion as are well educated; and
possess enlightened minds, I am by no means disposed
to undervalue, I am sure such persons will feel it

'coMpletely nbtgatory. tut t am far froth thinkini
that it will he so felt by the mass of the Catholic
who it is well known are in a state of great ment :
darkness and absolute subjection to the priesthood :
but on this part of the subject I shall not dilate, inas.,
moth as I expect that-it will be treated in detail by
an Hon. Baronet, who is capable of giving the House
much more satisfactory information with moppet to it-
than I could pretend to do. But it is pretty plain that
the framers of the Bill themselves did not regard this
oath as sufficient, inasmuch as they have thought it
necessary to superadd other securities. I do not wish
to go back to times long past to shew its insufficiency,
nor is it necessary. The Sovereign Pontiff in our
, own times has issued instructions to his Church, in.
which, having made a distinction between active
and passive oaths,- he has asserted that those of the
latter kind only may be taken for the satisfaction of
to heretical government. In the document in which
this doctrine is laid down, it is moreover said, that
call oaths taken contrary to the interest of.theChurch
•are null and void ; and this document has been with-
in these.4B hours promulgated and disseminated in
London by the principal Roman Catholic Prelate in
this country and the agent for the Irish Catholic.—
With respect to the restrictions in the Ecclesiastical
appointments and the intercourse of the priesthood
with the See of Rome, I shall first observe, what-
ever may be the merit of thoie provided for by the
Bill, it is plain that some such restrictions the Le-
gislature has a right and is in duty bound to adopt.
In the first form which the Bill assumed, I was not
disposed to think that the mode of nomination was
such as would give satisfaction to either party. As
it has been since altered it appears to me much less
objectionable, so far as the Crown is concerned, but
I apprehend that it has undergone no improvement
in the eyes of the Catholics. I would suggest, that
in addition to the present provision of the Bill on this
head, the regular Clergy should be rendered insus-
ceptible of.being nominated by the regular Clergy.
The House will understand that I mean the monas-
tic orders. These people, in addition to the alle-
giance they owe the Temporal Sovereign, not only
give a spiritual allegiance to the Roman Pontiff, but
also own the authority of a General of each order.
Now the General of the Order of Jesuits is at pre-
sent in Russia; but who will undertake to say, that
he may not be in a short time an inhabitant of
France ? The General of the Dominicans is in Spain,
but he may also change his residence. Dr. Troy,
Titular Archbishop of Dublin, is a member of this
last mentioned order. Surely it is not expedient that
persons owing this treble and too probably conflict-
ing allegiance, should be capable of being nominat-
ed. I must express a hope too that we may not see
an apostolical vicar of the See of Rome suffered to
exercise his delegated authority in this kingdom.—
The person now exercising it is also the diplomatic
agent of the See of Rome, the mandates of which
it is not reasonable to suppose he would hesitate
to obey, and that on at least half a million of Ca-
tholic subjects in Great Britain, of whom a great
proportion would undoubtedly obey his. It is due
to the Government, to the country, . and to the Ca-
tholics themselves, that this tyranny should be abo-
lished. As I thought in the first state of the Bill the
mode of nomination objectionable, so did I think, of
the regulation with respect to the intercourse between
the Catholic Clergy and the See of Rome ;—these
have also been improved, but I apprehend they have
been exposed to similar objections on the part of the
Catholics. I must own, however, that I am averse
to any amendment in a spiritual state in- its relation
with a temporal.government, as though the clan-
destine proceedings. in the present cases would be
through an unauthorised channel, still that circum-
stance does not altogether remove my objections.—
I wish generally, that the viards which have been
adopted may not be over-rated, but that we should
consider and reconsider whether we have in them
an equivalent for which we may barter the strength
of our Protestant Establishment.—(Hear, hear.)—
The Roman Catholic Prelates profess implicit obe-
dience to the See of Rome, and they are directed to
exercise their spiritual jurisdiction without the inter-
vention of any document whatever. This is a spirit
which Englishmen should not incautiously or with-
out great consideration give way ; this is the spirit
which our Clarendon and Somers as statemen, our
Locke as a philosopher, and William 111. la a
sovereign prince, pronounced. incompatible with the
Constitution. This spiritual jurisdiction cannot be
innoxiously co-existent with a Protestant Govern-
ment.—(Hear, hear.)—To conclude, I must repeat
that the point at which we must make our stand, is
the proposed admission of Catholics into the two
Houses of Parliament ; if this be granted, all ulterior
objects must be easily obtained.—(Hear, hear.)—
I shall therefore move, that the words of the hist
clause which admit Catholics to the two Houses of
Parliament be left out."
Mr. WHITBREAD regretted much the part the
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite had taken in the dis-
cussion, particularly because having rarely an oppor-
tunity of expressing his sentiments in that House,
they must derive considerable weight from that cir-
cumstance. He had now made a speech in which he
professed to advance some objections to the clauses
of the Bill, but which, in fact, went to its utter ex-
tinction—He would, indeed, admit the Catholics to
military offices, but he would exclude them from all
judicial situations---(Hear)--he would put down the
Monastic orders--he_ thought the views of the Apos-,
tolic dangerous, and that he ought to be expelled the
land—yet he would sutler the Bill to be thrOwis out
which was formed, the only opportunity which would
probably be afforded for years of getting rid of those
nuisances which were so much the object of his dis-
like. The Right Hon. Gentleman had availed him-
self of some dissatisfaction with the Bill which bad
been expressed by the Catholic Board in Dublin to
strengthen his reasonings against it, but what did
that in reality go to prove ?--why, that there would
be always some dissatisfied on such occasions—(Hear ,
hear.) Was it possible that he could hope that. per- I
sons would be contented whose business it was aevOr
to be contented. There never would be wanted 4iss,,
contented auxiliaries of the Catholic Board--(Hear,
hear.) There were many persons of this description,
who telt that the passing of the Bill now under con
sideration would be a death-blow to their come-
quence—(Hear, hear,) to whom that individual coo-
sequence was every thing, the interests of the Catho-
lic Body nothing. But if the proceedings of the
Board in Dublin were calculated to give oleacc, be

lotions,
eue:Csuli s
eoialndni ointwi wcaah tit
tivte very
yh
ht
numerous
atod different tha er
rwt
hve eei ocpdtUhi
point
ignnt
wouldot resolutions owycl
neuaewtt
Catholics
exhibit
ciits,dahadcei
je:Dthtt,
it which a Gem leinan of great wealth and l
hility had presided.—[Here the Hon. Member
the proceedings of the meeting in question.]
Honourable Member then continued : he v.-oul
the Right Hon. Member whether these resilt
had not released his mind from the apprehen,
under which he had appeared to labour??
not, moreover, Indulge a rational hope from the
of one of them, that he would not be deprived t
assistance of a Right Hon. Member in the wt
legislation, the loss of whom he had content;
With so much uneasiness? The Right Holt.
ber was not averse to the admission of Cana:.
the Army and Navy, hut he did not approve (a
admission to the Bench or to Parliament, entert,
jag altogether a different opinion from an Hot.
ble Baronet who had recently stated that from
admission to the Navy he entertained the great,
prehensions. He would excuse him, if, as he hi
had treated the apprehensions of others as viii
he should now treat his in the same light—he
ceived they were' altogether groundless—hia
was one of his principles of objection at un.
could not testify sufficient surprise. Ha had de:,
it as his opinion that a Catholic Jthlge could u.
satisfaction in deciding between individual ani
vidual—( Hear, Hear, hear.) He would be
of administering justice to the satisfaction
tart suitors—(.Rear, hear.) If the Right Hi
able Member had not meant to say so, he
have an opportunity of explaining what he did
He had assigned two reasons why Cathoiics
be inadmissible to judicial offices—the one was
causes in which the Church was interested
come under their cognizance ; the other, that
would he unable to administer justice to the caul
tion of Protestant suitors. Now the Catholir
heretofore, indeed, grounds for a complaint,
here anticipated for the Protestants. This,
was dissipated by the liberal feelings which bad
found their way -into men's minds. The Pro:,
ascendency in Ireland, and the state. of the
mind in England towards the Catholics, consi
a great grievance to that body. If, with an
the state of things, a Catholic should appreitenl
having his cause prejiniged if he were to appear 1-
fore the tribunal of a Protestant Judge, wouid
Protestant indignantly disclaim the imputation
cast upon them ? The Right Hon. Member,
sorry to obset ve, had adopted in his speech the lat
of the hustings, thence the cry was, that if the
lies were admitted to power, the King would ;
none but Catholics to office. When they were
ted to have setts in Parliament, there would
but Catholic Members elected. He hoped
would soon be convinced how little ground
for apprehensions of this nature ; indeed, there
one circumstance now before his eyes, which mil-
itself seem to correct the delusion. - In the coin
his duty, lie had of late been fatigued by the bring.
ing up of the numerous Petitions against the Catholic
Claims signed by the Protestants, till at length they
came in such shoals that they were laid upon the
table without being read, their purport only being
ascertained. Now. these were, as he observed before,
signed by Protestants—by Protestant voters. It
would appear, then, according to the hypothesis of
the Right Hon. Gentleman, that these persons who
were so averse to the Catholics being admitted to
Parliament, as soon as they were admitted, would im.
mediate!), come round to a different way of thinking;
and while in the very act of deploring the removal of
those guards to the Constitution, which they were so
anxious to preserve in their full vigour, world think
the exercise of that winch was in their own pone
improper, and at all elections vote for Catholic cm.
didates.—( Hear, hear.)—The Dissenters might tom;
and did, come into the House of Parliament : they
'laboured-under grievances also, and did they endea-
vour to repeal the acts of security, and overthrow the
Established Church ? At . the time when 'the great
authorities existed whom the Right Hon. Gentleman
had quoted, the characters of the Catholic and the
Protestant differed as materially as light did from
darkness ; Protestant then supported Protestant, and
Catholic then supported Cathalic —the former.deten
mined to have and maintain a Protestant suceessite
to the Throne, and the latter resolved to sustain the
righti of a Catholic King, or a Catholic Pretender.
So l.rng as that state of things existed, the famtirnents
of such wise and enlightened men deserved con3idaa•
tion and weight; but matters were now happily al.
tered—the Catholics mutually supported the Pro-
testant Throne at home and abroad, in alliance with
their reformed brethren ; and had Lord Clarendon,
Lord Somers, King William, and Mr. Locke, lived
now, they would have 'delivered very different opt.
nions. The Right Hon. Gentleman had proposed to
annul the first clause ; but, in removing that, he took
away the best part, and left nothing but wreck aad
remnant, out of which the Right Hon. Gentlemai
had proposed to frame some measure conciliatory tai
the Catholics. How painful must it have been to the
Right Hon. Gentleman, when propositions, in former
Sessions, were made for allowing. to the Cathiiiic
soldier the free exercise of his religion, all of which
had been unsuccessful ! lie must have felt his he.
•wrung at the denial of Parliament, and must hire
longed to leap out of his chair to support such a met
sure.-(4 laugh )—But the Right Hun. Gentlenus
expressed a wish to propos: a Bill accordirt
'to. the notions which he entertained s he had ricstreol
some opinions foe_ his own use ; and
jog
though the
•s
were kitting °din:right and on his lett, the
Marg.( W. Ryder and Mr. Yorke) of
he had never heretofore whispered to them any pt`'
positions, nor counselled them to guard against tht
immineht danger of rnonastical institutions. (A lar,4)
The influence of these bodies of men had been par'
cularly noticed as detrimental to general concili.--
but it the Right. Hon. Gentleman drove them
be would do more for the establishment of
Bower than ha_ ''bier meditated in England for
wards .of an fiundt:ed years. He was firmly i'•
waded, if the Bill -passed into a law, that it wouli
be productive of great benefit to the community'
'that the •Cathnlics would be, perfectly contented ;
that there would be no need for she persecntion of h
Monastic institutions. The Right Hon. Gentin Am'.
though lie
alum liad
ore argeuneddot the Dillagainstthe principle ot
m
to another,

adopting the lang
say, that their ex
State is nothing h
sion. To comma
they may be adys
essential power c
merely instrument
sou. From the

,dopttj a
Catholic
lett rtin,
wee
in Cork,
ht i_Pecb..
Cher r.. 14
] Tb,
ot,' ash
ehensions
Might he
die tericc
red 11: the
e svoi lc
:eni 4tett
30. Mere... I
intfl
re c.t thti
entert•nu.
iom their
.eate:t ;.p.
ie Inoneif
v4ionary,
--11 c
UhIC:I
de:irLred
ii u„t tive
and in&.
incapable
if litotes.
Honour.
he Would
lid memi,
blloula
was, that
ed would
that they
e sattslitc.
iolics had
lit aster
59 indeed,
had lately
Protestot
he pubic
onstitnzel
an eve ID
Ipprehetul
appear be-
lid not the
Ation this
!r, he was
language
Ile (*.Attu).
Id appoint
re pertnit•
d be cone
that he
id he had
there Was
I might in
course d
the bring.
e Clithohe
ngth they
upon the
.t..

ssuwaus,
noval of
were in
Id think
a power
alit casi
fit come,
tc : they
endea-
trow the
he great
;adman
and the
id from
int, ant
ir -deter-
cees.sion
tain the
etender.
atimenn
Ituid,ra•
ppily aL
he Pm-
ace with
/Tendon,
ke, lived
rent epl;
posetl ro
he took
eck and
ntlemin
latory
!la to the
former
Catholic
which
is hest
ast hoe
A iner
nt Irma
cordx;
rt:St I ‘6l
t P4fti
for tY*
tly tYr'
wouhi
flunky;
j ; And
3 of the
tiro^
of the
r, hAiir

~rrerttieless,'Confessed that he wits pleased with saine
of the ptoposittons; and hag poiftted out several de-
fects, yet had left the CoMmittee hopeless, by pip-
pobing nothing: He hoped the Right Hon. Gentle-,
two would assist theM in conducting the Bill thtough
the Committee, even with the first clause as it now
stood, for without that the remainder was wholly un-
important. the first proposition was' calculated to
bring the Catholics and Protestants into collision in
the Parliament—to bring them into muttfal confe-I
Tence—to inspire confidence and quell alarm $ and
for these reasons bad his hearty support. It ap.
esred, however, that the enemies to the Catholics
res:rved their batteries to the very last, and perse-
vered in their errors And misrepresentations with un-
equalled teal. It was his disposition to think favour-
ably of the Catholics; he thought the people of
England were ripe for the measure; and he hoped
the people of Ireland would be conciliated by It.—
(Heir, hear.)
Sir JOHN NICHOLS Lose, anxious to impress on
the minds of the Committee the probable effects of
the present important measure. The Constitution of
the country was wholly Protestant—the Church—the
Crown with all its Councillors—the Houses of Par-
liament—the judicial system—the higher military
branches were all exclusively Protestants. Now this
Constitution had not received its character from a
few hasty enactments called for on a moment of peril
--the acts which laid its foundation and secured it,
were the silent, continual, and necessary accumula-
tions of above a century framed by their predecessors
for the preservation of protestantism. After the Re-
formation, the famous Corporation Act was passed,
excluding Catholics from that branch of legislation ;
SON afterwards another law was enacted, requiring
all Military Officers to take the oath of supremacy ;
and during the reign of the Second Charles it was
found dangerous to permit Catholics to sit in Parlia-
ment, and they were excluded accordingly, for the
better preservation of the King's person and Govern-
ment. The inclination of the succeeding Monarch
to the Catholics rendered the Revolution necessary,
and the Bill of Rights was the consequence, which
excluded for ever Catholics from the Throne. The
principle of the Constitution, therefore, had been sup-
ported and strengthened by many enactments ; this
perfected system was the accumulated wisdom of
successive Parliaments, and the silent growth of ages.
The principle, with its strongest character, had been
recognized in the union of Scotland and England,
and under its influence the nation had enjoyed domes-
tic quiet for more than a century, and which was
little interrupted by the rebellion in Ireland, where
the Catholic spirit was attempted to be made subser-
vient to revolutionary views. The present laws were
placed around them as securities, by the wisdom of
their ancestors, and if they were to be removed, the
legislation would be no longer Protestant—the Army
and the Parliament would be changed, and ancesto-
rial wholly obliterated, the alteration of
which only twenty years ago, none dared to have con-
templated. The bulwarks of civil and religious li-
berty were to be removed, not gradually as they were
created, but all was to go at one " fell swoop," at a
time when the Throne was not exercising its full
peer, and the Government were divided. (Hear,
hue hear.) He was afraid this was not the auspi.
clots period for general conciliation—this was not
' the moment when the lion could repose with the lamb.
Were there any assurances or any hopes that the Ca-
tholics would not act as a political body, or as a mi-
litary body, should any tempting opportunities hap-
penvas ?1,
cWa
nats there
waonuyl
dc e
setr t a i nazdety thaatcaifthottlh'herironine
favour of a Protestant ? His present Majesty had
only one grandchild on whom the succession rested,
for he knew not whether the Queen of Wirtemberg
had any children. None, therefore, could predict,
whether in the course of twenty years the crown
would be on a British head, or on that of a foreigner.
and the influence of the Catholic Members might be
employed against the succession of a Protestant. It
was always wisest to stand prepared for whatever
events might happen. No person, ten years before
the Reformation, could have predicted that event
IA certainty ; no person, ten years previous to the
Revolution, could be aware of the change of the
Constitution ; and no person, ten years before the
French Revolution, could anticipate the appearance
or a savage and barbarous Republic, amid the ruins
at the Monarchy. Against the ascendancy of the
Catholics no clauses had been proposed ; he believed
ely were loyal to the monarchy, and lovers of their
e entry, but he was not altogether certain that they
tould not prefer a Catholic Church and a Catholic So-
itreign. That circumstance pressed on his mind the
eopriety of remaining in their present situation,
and conceding no farther. He dreaded the introduc-
: on of Catholic Gentlemen into the high offices of
he State, backed by four millions of people under
rte dominion of a bigotted priesthood, when a Ca-
eelic Government might be sent as a punishment for
Living neglected the warning of their ancestors.
Mr. PONSONBY said the Bill was open to the
light Honourable Gentleman (the Speaker) if lie
keased to supply the defects which he had discovered
15 it, and he would be glad to see another Bill pre-
p-red containing all those parts which had been
p ,inted out as proper to be conceded. If the Right
}l4)n•Gentleman refused to avail himself of the offex,
he 4.oukt be liable to as grave an accusation as he
had preferred against those who framed the measure.
rhe Bill was ordered by the House to be brought in
to remove civil and military disqualifications, and
Those persons who prepared it bad never contempla-
ted the introduction of those clauses recommended
by the Right Hon. Gentleman. They were desi-
tous of introdeeing a measure to relieve the Catho-
lics front grievances of which they had complained,
by placing them on a footing of equality with their
Protestant brethren ; and those Gentlemen who were
se eager to defend the Church and State, would do
:ell to consider, that by giving the Catholics power
eey secured the whole. But those who opposed the
Bill had alarmed themselves with a belief that the
Catholics, when once admitted to Parliament would
.quietly procure the best situations of the kingdom,
9d immediately apply themselves to undermine the
Protestant Constitution; but how was it possible that
6ve• ten, fifteen, or twenty Catholics could injure the
Protestant inteiest in an assembly composed of sits
hundred and fifty-eight Members ? How Has it pos.
Bible that they could plot and contrive where there
Ivas every certainty of immediate discovery—when
the first motion they made contrary to sound cond..

tntiooal friinciptet Would ieveal their designs? A •
Catholic Could not seat
spoke last, and tell hith in
confidence that he had a measure td piopot6 prejudi=
cial to the Proastant irit*rest, and conclude his com-
munication by desiring his concurrence and
Wai it to be expecteil that the Hon. Gentlitnatt
would listen to all that With a favourable ear—that
he would abandon his ancient principles for the tvhis-
pet of a Catholic ? The Hon. Gentleman had de-
clared that it was difficult to prognostibite on Whose
head the Crown would be plaCesl in twenty years ;
indeed, it would be difficult to determine—neither
could any one predict who would be Dean of the
Arches in twenty yeaks—(A itibgh)—but he was cer-
tain of one circumstance at the end of ttbenty years,
which was, that the Protestant religion would be
flourishing immaculate, notwithstanding the admis-
sion of a few Catholics into the Parliament. to
hold the language of fear was truly nonsensical, for
the Protestants would never be seized with such an
unnatural fit of generosity, so as to abandon their
own rights to gratify a score of Catholics, even were
the laud. so basely disposed as to ask it. If the first
clause Was defeated, he did not care what became of
the rest of the measure. The Test Act was Made
chiefly for the purpose of expelling Lord Clifford
from the Councils of Charles 11. and other enact-
ments were deviled prinCipally for State necessity.
But suppose that they were not—that they were
framed to repel teal danger—they must now shew
the same necessity for their continuance which they
did for their commencement. The state of things
then and the state of things now bore no resemblance.
What had recently happened between the Spanish
people and the Pope's Nuncio, furnished an argu-
ment that no national Clergy were at present in the
humoor or disposition to comply with the Papal au-
thority. The Clergy acted wisely—they disobeyed
the Papal injunction, and communicated the whole
to the Government ; which, if it furnished a proof of
the presumptuous spirit of the Pope, furnished an
equal proof of the good conduct of the Clergy and
the people. But it was never the spirit of the priest-
hood of any religion to be moderate, if not repressed
by the Laity. Wherever the people were wilting to
be obedient, the priesthood were willing to rule, and
the best regulator of that ambition was the temper of
the people. He protected the present Bill because
he conceited that its general principles were excel-
lent, though he did not perfectly concur with some
of the minor clauses. It was impossible that any
measure could give universal satisfaction, yet the
present Bill conferred powers which would be thank-
fully and gratefully received, in a measure which ad-
mitted the Catholics to an honest participation cf
power. He could not conceive that they could do
less than rejoice and be glad. The Bill was calcu-
lated to give satisfaction to reasonable men—it was
a measure that promised to bestow benefits public
and private—it was the triumph of sound policy and
liberality over prejudice, bigotry, and superstition.
To unite the people of Ireland cordially with the
people of England, and give general security to the
Empire, were the intentions of the framers cf the
Bill ; and he hesitated not to say, that so great, so
benevolent, and so beneficial a measure had not been
proposed since the Revolution—(Hear, hear.) The
destruction of the first clause would only tend to
make the Catholics more eager and more solicitous ;
further demands would be instantly made, and he
would be the foremost man to bring 11)rward a pro-
position to restore the clause which had been lost.—
The Bill, without that, would not produce satisfac-
tion, and, in his opinion, ought not to produce satis-
faction.

Sir J. C. HIPPESLEY was favourable to the pro-
position for Catholics sitting in Parliament, and, there-
fore favourable to the Bill now before the Committee
—(Hear, hear)—hut he was not favourable to the
proposition in the shape in which it was now before
the Committee ; and, therefore he could not give it
his support. (Loud Laughing.) Gentlemen might
laugh, and accuse him of inconsistency ; but he
should contend, that he was consistent ; he was fa-
vourable to giving the privilege asked for, but he
thought previous to his doing so, security should be
provided. At present the contrary was the fact, the
House was called on to grant the franchise before
any securities were provided ; and this was what he
could not agree to. (Hear, hear.)
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
briefly opposed the admission of Roman Catholics
into Parliament and other Civil and Polit;cal situa-
tions, without giving a sufficient security for the pre-
servation of the Constitution in Church and State.

Mr. TIGHE vindicated the loyalty of his coun- i
trymen, and their devotion to the British Empire.—
Were this Bill calculated to overturn the Empire, as
some had contended, he was sure that few of his
countrymen would support it. Could the Irish re-
turn the whole of their hundred Members Catholics,
and were it likely that these should undermine the
Constitution, or prove hostile to the great interests of
the Empire, he was sure they would not do it. He was
sorry that the three great objects of the Bill had not '
been considered separately. The Petitions from Ire-
land asked no privilege that was inconsistent with the
security of the Constitution, and the safety and inde-
pendence
of the country. He thought to have teen,
at this time' of day, sentiments and times more libe-
ral and enlightened than the arguments of some Gen-
tlemen would lead them to believe—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAN KES opposed the clause allowing Catho-
lics to sit in Parliament. He was astonished that
Gentlemen, who he was convinced were as much at.
cached As he himself was to the Protestant Establish-
ment, should not feel, that if Catholics were allowed
seats in Parliaments, the Protestant Establishment in
Ireland must, in less than 25 years, be overthrown.
His Right Hon. Friend acting so long as he had as a
party-man, should have known the effect which the
nice balancing of patties might produce, if this mea-
sure were carried. It ought also to be most seriously
considered that (as every man who professes the true
Catholic Religion, must believe every Church except
his own to be schismatical and heretical), every true
Catholic, when circumstances favoured him, would
be desirous to establish" the Catholic Church over
every other. If 100 Members were elected by Various
interests out of this body, they would and must be
joined by others in the House, from among the
Protestant Dissenters, claiming entire conces-
i sion for all their different sects. It would be a ground
of eternal jealousy, if they were to endeavour to in-
troduee any thing in sill Constitution whig.ll might

be eceeicheg to tiieir religiotis tenets, eithotigh neer.
ding to their ideas of serving the State. The House
ought to topsider, that what was granted to the Ca-
tholic! in 179 %vat considered by -those who granted
It a 3 a final adustMent. Novri si that had not been
the cases he advised theth to consider that what they
might think they were giving as a concession, when
once given, could hot be recalled, even .if it should
be ,abused, and demanded as a right.
Lord CASTLEREAGH had already stated his
general impiession! on the leading view! embraced by
the Bill, therefore he would not trouble the Commit-
tee on the general question, but would confine him-
self as closely as possible td the clause respecting the
admission of Members into that House. He concur-
red with the Right Honourable Gentleman (the
Speaker) in opinion that the other clauses were of
less importance thin that onee-efor it contained the
essence, and for Med the leading feature of the Bill.—
If they failed in carrying that clause, he thought
they would fail to carry what he considered to be of
the most salutary tendency in the whole measure.—
( Hear, hear.) He telt it to be the essential feature of
the whole Bill. To reject it would be to say that the
House never would be prepared to give to the Cabo-
lies any thing like an appearance either in the State
or in the Government ; arid, to say that they were
ready to give them state appearance, he deemed to
be the essential and main feature of the Bill. The
state of the Roman Catholic religion—the situation of
the head of its Church, werecircumstancesthat shewed
the necessity of making arrangements to protect the
Protestant establishments ; but he did not think that
they afforded such strong grounds against the mea-
sure as the expediency of it adduced argument in its
support. He firmly believed that there was that spe-
cies of restraint on them, arising out of the expediency
of it at the present moment, that they were called
upon to enact scene substantial constitutional measure
for the relief of the Catholics. The policy of the
measure might be called into doubt by some extetnal
pr,iceedings ; but by admitting the Catholics within
their own pale, they gave them a pledge of the sin-
cerity of the wish to become friends, and they
thereby armed them against all foreign and domes-
tic danger. This would be establishing a confidence
that would be useful to the State and to the Country.
The Bill proceeded on the principle of promoting
mutual confidence, and thus would they have a shield
which in times of danger would protect both Pro-
testant and Catholic. He would meet the Catholic,
and would pursue what would promote their common
interests. He would shew that he was prepared to
act with them, and that would produce what was
wanted—mutual cenfidence ; and he would not he
deterred by any hypochondriacal views of the Coesti.
union. But it was said, this would not be a final
measure—the Catholics wnu!ti still have something to
propose. Would it not be strange to say, that any
thing that was done by Parliament was final ? indeed,
would it not be a great tax on human as isdem to say
nny thing of the kind ? No question could he billy
said to be final—to be set at rest for eve?. But why
should that idea alarm them—the idea that tee pre-
sent measure would not set the question at rest, if
they felt in their own minds that they were strong
enough to embatk with the Catholic? If they did
co, and treated them as friends, he felt no doubt as to
the ultimate success of the measure in promoting the
security and peace of the empire. With respect to
minor questions, on his conscience he believed that
they would be of easy regulation when once a mutual
confidence was established between the Protestant and
Catholic. Let them be treated as friends, and he
solemnly believed that they would not be found to
throw much obstruction in the way of a complete
arrangement. The House must feel themselves strong
enough to act on such a principle—to emeerk with
the Catholic without any vein and groundless fears,
and wisdom called on them so to act—to make the
Catholic a friend, v. hich only creed be done by esta-
blishing a mutual confidence. The proceedings of
the Irish Catholics in 1793 had been referred to ; hut
that measure had sown the seeds of dissention, by
promoting the annual discussions of questions relative
to the Catholics. This was the effect of those pro-
ceedings by degrees—step by step : they occasioned
perpetual discussion and perpetual anxiety. But it
they were to view the great question with statesmen-
like minds, instead of wasting it by detail, they
would put an end to these annual struggles by esta-
blishing some regulations at once that might be ex.
pected to meet the whole case. The power of Po-
pery, as it had evinced itself in other countries, had
been cited against the present measure; but instead
of making against it, he thought it was in tavour of
it, and that it made the strongest possible appeal to
the wisdom of Parliament, by calling on them not to
lose the opportunity of protecting themselves. It
they made the Catholic their friend, and armed him
in the common cause, they made the mote effectual
effort to exclude the enemy. They now had the oppor-
tunity of doing this, and they had arrived at that state
when they were not open to the insinuations of those
who were for ever calling on them to shew the secu-
rities that were to be given, as well as the arrange-
ments that were to be made. Before, they had never
known what they were discussing, but now they had
a clear distinct measure before them. They had at
least something to proceed on • and it was gratify.
ing to hear that the Right Hon. Gentleman (the
Speaker) had expressed his approbation el* the gene-
ral system of regulations introduced into the Bill.
Approving of the general system, as that Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman did, it. was only to be lamented
that he did not carry his approbation to the highest
point. (Hear, hear.) The first point in the Bill was
the only material one, as he understood, to which the
Right Hon. Gentleman objected. As to what had
been said about certain religious societies, he agreed
in opinion with the Right Hon. Gentleman that they
ought to be noticed; and he was not inclined to differ
from hint respecting regulations of the Clergy in Ire-
land—but he did not want to entangle these questions
with the one before the Committees He had no such
anxiety, for he was sure, if they succeeded in esta-
blishing an amicable interchange between the Catho-
lics and the Protestants, that there would not be found
much difficulty to bring about necessary and useful
regulations. (Hear, hear.) If he understood the
principle on which an Honourable Member oppo-
site (Mr. Bankes) had proceeded, and he thought
he did understand him, it was, that all alteration
or an innovation on the laws as they now stood,
was a violation of the Constitution. But he
would put it to the House whether such a principle

could a idea Open at a thoment iike the Oresent $
indeed, could that Honourable Member say, looking
at the state of public opinion, of the progress which
this cadre had made in the public mind; that the se.
curity of the, Empire would fie promoted by *mut-
gating and acting upon a principle of permanent ex-
elusion of the Catholics from political state and
power ?—(Near,.hear.)—With hespect to tvhat had
fallen from his Honourable Friend (Mr. Bankes), he
could not agree with him in the views which he had
taken ; but he was surprised to find that hit Honoura-
ble Ffiend considered it his duty to give an unrelent.
inF opposition to the Bill. The impression upon his
mind was, that his Honourable Friend was not jealous
of the principle of the measure so much as apprehen.
sive whether the Catholics would consent to of that
House should impose such securities, as would protect
the Consitution from all possible danger. It appeared
to him that there had been too much of a disposition
to look to these securities when they appeared to be
difficult, and now that specific arrangementi lot the put..
pose had been proposed, to overlook the securities and
refer the difficulty to the measure itself.—(lfeur, hear.)
Another point which had been much insisted on was;
that if the Catholics should but take an oath of supre;
macy, then all difficulties would be removed. Thug
oath, he was opinion, they might safely take in the
sense in which it ought to be taken : but if they con-
sciously believed that they could not consistently take
it, their refusal ought to be regarded as highly cre-
ditable to their moral character. Though they de.
clined to take the oath of supremacy, they were ready
to take that which denied that the Pope had any
power in temporals. This would remove every dd.;
ticulty, if there had not been so many mixed cases in
which it was desirable to provide against any possible
inroad of the power of the Pope. The Bill, however,
contained ample provision against these mixed easel*
by means of the Commissioners to bejippointed to
carry its enactments into execution. But then it
might be said that still some Icop-hole would remain,
and undoubtedly it would be impossible by any act
of legislation to guard against every possible evasiotia
Was the principle of exclusion that which was to se.
cure the State against the foreign danger Should
they not rather if they found themselves strong ehough
on
to do so, admit the Catholics into the possessi of the
privileges of the Constitution ? By granting to them
the rights proposed to be yielded by the Bill, they would
inspire them e ith caution to secure what they had at,
tained rafter than enterprise to seek after further con-
cessions. He agreed that it was in the nature
of religious sects to have a peculiar feeling s but if
he thought that the Catholics, uniting with other dis-
senters, would direct that feeling against the State*
he should not think of concession. 1.1 deseolic states,
there may be a perfect freedom and independence of
Sects, but in a mixed Government Ike that of Great
Britain, there must be a religion tif the State -which
religion was in this -country Protestant-ereqeiring
not only that the king should he Protestant, bundle:
the Government and the Legislature should be prin.
c'psily Protestant. In his conscience he believed
that the measure would nut aggravate power within
o the walls of that House, as the Protestant Gentle.
men returned upon that interest, were disposed to go
further than even Catholic Members would go. He
called upon the House, therefore,, by entertaining
the measure, to save the Representatives of Ireland
the misery of witnessing the continuAnce of that dis•
quietude which the present state of things was calcu.
laced to keep alive. He above all deprecated the
idea of making the subject of concession an annual
question, by which the House should dole out its
' bounty to the Catholics. He approved of the Bill
belore the Committee, and the support he should
give it was not the result of sudden conviction, but
of the reflection of a length of years. Though he
was aware that in this he differed from some of those
friends with whom he had the happiness to concur
and to act upon other questions of national policy,
he was persuaded that he should be unworthy of that
favour with which he was honoured by them in ge.
neral, if he had not honestly stated his sentiments on
this occasion.—(Hear, hear).
Mr. YOlt KE observed, that if he could consider
it, with his Noble Friend who had just sat down, to
be consistent with the steady policy of the Protestant
Government of this country, to pass such a Bill as
that under consideiation—if he could consider it car.
culated, as had been represented by his Noble Friend,
to allay the animosities and extinguish the dissentions
which had prevailed on this, he should give his vote
for the measure. But in place of allaying these ani.
muskies, if this Bill were to pass, it would bring the
Catholics only in contact with themselves. He con.
ceived it to be the steady policy of that House to ad.
here to the laws and institutions of their ancestors.

This country had been well governed for many years,
and had attained to as high a pitch of prosperity as
any nation ever possessed, under its Protestant Go.
vernment. It would go on still in the same pros.
perous way, if they were to keep the Catholics out
of the Government : he could, therefore, not con-
sent to the passing of this Bill. \Via) respect to the
particular clause under consideration, his Right Hon.
Friends knew, that when Lord Grey had brought
forward his measure, he had never agreed in their
view s of it. He had always been one of those who
thought that concessions should be made to the Ca.
tholics.—(Hear, hear.)—He always thought that the
anomalous distinction between the two countries, as
to the rank attainable by Catholics in the army, ought
to be (bite away. The present question was, wht•
ther they would admit Roman Catholics to the Go.
vernment of the State? The Bill, on the face of it,
admitted the danger of foreign influence—admitted
the influence of the Roman Catholic priests, and the
necessity of securities. If he understood the argument
of its supporters right, it was, that the provisions of
the Bill would establish the necessary securities. Now
what security did they hold out? In his opinion, by
passing the Bill, they would give up the only secu-
rity they had—that cf keeping the Roman Catholics
out.—(Hear, hear, hear.)—The Catholics would not
swallow the oath of supremacy ; but if the House
should give that up, they would surrender their only.
security. Where was the argument, or sophistry
rather, that could persuade them, in a Government
and Legislature essentially Protestant, to admit the
Roman Catholics ? Would the Statesmen who, in
the reigns of Charles I I. and James 11. watched over
the interests of this Protestant State, have done so
They had declared that the Government and the Par.
liament should be essentially Protestant. By depart
sing from that principle they wdbld, most certainly,

destroy the Constitution. 'rite Church of England
was a Parliamentary Church, how then could the
Catholics be admitted as parties to legislate for it ?
His Noble Friend had set out with laying it down as
a principle that they should not interfere with the Ca.
tholic faith ; upon what ground then could it be jus-
tified that the Catholics should be placed in a situa-
tion to interfere with the Protestant religion ? For
his part he could not agree to the clause under con-
sideration nor to .several of the subsequent clauses
without considerable exceptions. In the first place,
Parliament, the great Council of the Sovereign, ought
to be Protestant—in the next place, the Judges who
have the administration of the laws ought to be Pro-
testant--and upon the same principles the Privy
Council ought to be protestant. If the clauses opening
these departments to the Catholics were to remain
unaltered, he could not vote for the Bill. After a

few observations respecting the institution of Com-
missioners under the Bill, the Right Hon. Gentleman
concluded by declaring his intention to vote against
the clause.
Mr. GRATTAN was convinced that the Catho-
lic Episcopacy would be sufficiently controuled under
the commission established in one of the clauses of
the Bill. He ridiculed the apprehension of danger
oxisting in the infusion of a few Catholic Represen-
tatives, as if Parliament were to become a Catholic

body by this measure, instead of remaining a Protes.
tant body containing a small minority of Catholics.
The principle of the Bill was the basis of all free Go-
vernments—that of adequate representation of every
class of the community not convicted of disaffection
or treason to the Constitution. He had heard in the
course of the debate one radically erroneous principle
avowed—that difference of religion constituted civil
incompatibility. Where was this incompatibility to
be found ? In what State had it been exemplified ?
How was it proved by the evidence of historical
facts ? The truth was, that penal laws had created
an artificial civil difference, and this civil difference
would expire with the penalties which gave it birch.
(Hear, hear.) A Right Hon. Gentleman, whose au-
thority must always be great in that House (the
Speaker) had said, that if the Bill passed, all the
Members for Ireland would be Catholics. How was
this proved ? Not by the state of the landed pro-
perty; or by the disposition'of those who possessed it.
As the inference, therefore, of which this argument
consisted was drawn from assertion merely, he must
be permitted to say, that until the assertion was
proved the argument was imperfect. What could
seven Peers in the other House, and thirty or even
fifty Representatives of the people accomplish, even
if disposed to make the attempt against a Protestant
Government and Legislature, and a House of Com-
mons consisting of 658 Members ? The argument,
then, although coming from great authority, ought
to have no authority at all. The object of the Bill
was emancipation to the Catholic, accompanied by
security to the Protestant. If the one were rejected,
the other must likewise be sacrificed. He approved
of the provision of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Canning), and of the suggestion of the Noble Lord,
who, to his judgment, had acted a manly part, and
with whom he would cheerfully participate any mo-
mentary unpopularity which his conduct on this oc-
casion might incur—(Loud cries of Hear, hear).-
-The question to be decided was undoubtedly com-
plicated, but it might he resolved into the general
consideration whether the power of the Pope should
remain unlimited by the rejection of these restrictions,
created by the Bill now in the Committee, or whether
that sway should be regulated and rendered subser-
vient to the double purpose of establishing Catholic
freedom and ratifying protestant sesurity ? (Hear.)
Mr. BRAGGE BATHURST contended that
the number of English Catholics rendered it probable
that a large proportion of the House of Commons,
in the event 'of passing this Bill, would be Catholics.
Mr. GRAT'I'AN explained.
Mr. FITZGERALD observed that the clause
affecting the episcopacy in Ireland was only prospec-
tive. Although he should not have desired the qua-
lifying and restricting clauses, he was prepared to
adopt them rather than lose the whole measure.—
(Loud
cries of Question!)
Mr. CANNING rose to call the House to the im-
mediate question before them, contained in the first
clause of the Bill, the adoption or rejection of which
involved the whole measure. The question embraced
two points—concession and conciliation to the Catho-
lics, and security to the Protestants : and he felt the
greater attachment to the present measure, because
he firmly believed that the most valuable grant which
it extended to the Catholics was at the same time the
best security for the Protestant Establishment ; be-
cause he beiieved that the way not to excite but to
allay the ferments and discontents of men was to give
them vent in that House, the legitimate receptacle of
all the opinions, the prejudices, and passions of the ,
people, and not to suffer them to range abroad un-
watched
or uncontrolled.—(Hear, hear).—He had
heard some persons express apprehensions that dema-;
gogues should be admitted in that assembly. He had
no such fears: he wished to see such persons within
then ti ad-, . rid to conflict with them i:ce to face.—
(Hear, hear).—\V hen this had been the case—he meant
nu invidious allusions—what had been the result ?
laad the consequence been increased danger to the
Constitution, or added dignity to the popular de-
claimer ? Or had it been that his character and opi-
nions had dwindled into their native insignificance ?
It was the sante with parties as with individuals.—
If there did exist a violent party among the Catholics,
let it fairly enter the House of Commons, where it
might be met and answered :—strip the cause of its
great and standard grievance : put the turbulent ad-
vocates, net where they may find sympathising mul-
titudes to echo all their sentiments, but among a
body f men who look at affairs of State with States.'
meti's e)ts. After all, %%hat a miserable and on-
founited app'rehension it was to suppose that the
Catholics would necessarily act as an indivisible pha-
lanx, draw alter them all other panic's, and usurp
the infloence of the State :—for the indissoluble link
of common suff, ring would be broken, and the cause
of rebellious discontent would be stripped of its most
plausible pretext. An Honourable Gentleman had
suggested a plan of_ giving to the population all
those boons which are the immediate gifts of the
Crown, and thus attach them to that part of the
Constitution, but at the same time exclude them from
the Commons—exclude them from that common in-
terest with the popular part of the system, which

alone, in a free State, can form a just balance to the
influence of the Monarch. He remembered, that

before the Union it had been prophesied by an Hon.
Gentleman, that importing one hundred Irish Mem-
bers into the House would be to introduce a body

of men united by a common tie, who would make
bargains for Irish objects, and throw all their weight
into the scale of that party which would most favour
their wishes. This bugbear had proved to be visionary.
The Irish Members had acted as fairly, and bad dis-
tributed themselves as much among the different par-
ties of the House, as if they had been natives of the
English soil. The Scotch Union had been invested
with the same imaginary dangers, and the State had
equally survived them. As it bad once been a dis-
qualification for a Member to marry a Welch wife,
yet now they had a Right Hon. Gentleman who, not-
withstanding be stood in that situation, poured the
whole strength of his mind against the introduction
of Catholics into Parliament. He must say, that the
framers of the Bill had not been fairly dealt by : in
all the earlier stages of the discussion, it had been
confidently prophesied that no security could be found
to satisfy any honourable man; but now that secu-
rities had been found, they saw that nothing could be
said against them : they therefore either pass them
over in silence, or agreed to allow the securities with-
out the concessions. He concurred with the Noble
Lord (whose conduct had been manly and con-
sistent), that those who opposed this Bill were bound
to enact a new system of pains and penalties : if by
a paltry majority of two or three units they should
succeed against this measure, let them produce their
measures of legislative severity. Let the Jesuits and
Dominicans, whose grizly spectres had haunted the
minds of some sleepy Legislators, be now laid by
their skill and energy ; let these indolent guardians of
the Constitution redeem their past inactivity by fresh
vigilance and sanguinary exertions.-(Hear.)—The.
House could not separate for the Session without some
measure on this subject. If conciliation was neces.
sary, there (pointing to the Opposition) sat the friends
and advocates of that system : if pains and penalties
were wanting, there (pointing to tile other side of
the House) were those who were ready to bring them
forward—(Hear, hear.) He did not envy them the
odious task, but such was the burthen which they
could not shake from their shoulders. The House
had now to decide on a question arising out of an ano-
maly in the Constitution, which deprived the country
of the services of a large portion of its inhabitants.
This anomaly had arisen from the policy of our an-
cestors, for which we pretended not to be responsible.,
But if the clause this night were rejected, the fault
became exclusively our own : the House would adopt
all the blame of their ancestors r it could no longer,
be said of the system that it was it non pasta labore led'
relicta :" the cruelty and the severity ot the code would
become their own work. But GOD forbid that the
cup of expectation, which had been filled to the brim,
should be now dashed from the lips of the Catholics!
GOD forbid that any Member should unction a pro.
ceeding which he might afterwards contemplate with
remorse! There WAS now an opportunity for a final
settlement, as far as any thing human could be final and
determinate; it was now the time to determine between
a system of conciliation, and one which would retrace
all those fatal steps which till now be had hoped had
been by all abandoned. He concluded by saying,
that if this clause were negatived, he should not think
it worth his while to support the other points ot the
Bill, but should discharge himself of all concern in a
measure which would then be fruitless and nugatory.
Mr. M. SUTTON protested against the doctrines
of the Right Hon. Gentleman. A vote against the
clause under discussion implied no necessity tor bring-
ing in measures of sanguinary pains and penalties ;
nor would the throwing of it out lead to any such re.
sult. The Bill was said to embrace concession and
security; but it would be well to observe that the
concessions were immediate—the security, from the in-
disposition of the Catholic clergy, distantly contingent.
Mr. CANNING explained. He had no objection
to the operation of the Bill being dated from the con-
stitution of the Committee.
Mr. BATHURST explained, and put it to the
candour of the Right Hon. Gentleman, if the word
sanguinary could, W ith propriety, be applied to any
measure necessary upon the rejection of this clause ?
Mr. CANNING, in explanation, admitted that the
word was too strong, and apologized for its being
used in the heat of argument.
The question being loudly called for, the Gallery
was cleared for a division, when the numbers were—
For the Clause - • 247
Fur she Amendment • 251
Majority - - —4
by which the principal object of the Bill is defeated.
Mr. PONSONBY said, that as the leading Clause
of the Bill was negatived, the friends of the measure
considered it as lost for the present. He would therefore
move, that the Chairman do leave the Chair, which
motion was put and carried.—The House having re.
sumed, the other Orders of the Day were disposed
of.—An Adjournment took place at HALF-PAST TWO
O'CLOCK.

THE EVENING STAR

LONDON.
TUESDAY, MAY 25, 1813.

PRICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY PT ONE O'CLOCK:
Red. 57-3—Cons. 580—for ace. 5811-4 per Ct. 71i 72
5 per Cent. 874—Bonds Is. Is. dis.—Eseh. Ellis 4s. ss. pre.
Bank Long Annuities 14 9-16 tbs

The Francis Freeling Packet has arrived at Fal-
mouth from America. She came from New York to
Bermuda ai a cartel, and from Bermuda to Eng-
land in 18 days. The New York Papers are to the
1.9. h ult. and the dispatches from Sir .JO/1N BORLASE
WAIMENI, which we alluded to in part of our im-
pression of yesterday, were dated on the 20th, being
the day subsequent to the signing of the reported
Armistice, which we doubted at the time. It is
almost needless to repeat, that no such event has
taken place. Messrs. GA LI. ATM and BAYARD, with
Mr. Aoaras, the present American Minister at St.
Petersburgh, are appointed Commissioners to open
negotiations at the Russian Capital, under the
auspices of that Cabinet. Great hopes are enter-
tained in America of a successful issue to this nego-
tiation. For our parts, we have already experienced

so much chicanery on the part of the American nego•
,ciators, that we think tit best not to encourage any
such hopes on this side of the Atlantic.
Great alarm is kept up along the American shores,
and one or two partial bombardments by our naval
force have been tried, but without any decided result
as yet. The preparations for the invasion of Canada
still continue. Extracts from the American Papers
will be found in another column.

A report was in circulation last night, that Ham-
burgh had once more fallen under French protection*
and that 300 of her brave and loyal citizens had been
put to death for their patriotism. The report is un-
founded. It will be recollected that the above is the
precise number of prisoners of the Hanseatic Legion
who fell into the hands of the French in one of the
affairs on the Elbe, between Hamburgh and Har-
burg, and who were ignominion.,ly tied together two
and two, and conducted to the latter place. The an-
ticipation of the cruelties about to be inflicted on
these unhappy men, may have led to the unfounded
report in question.

At the same time we are not without our fears
that this modern Utica may ultimately fall into the
hands of the Barbarians. The latest accounts from
this unfortunate city are of the 17th, on which day
all was well, but the bombardment from the Islands
in the Elbe was expected to commence next day 1

Private letters by the Mail of yesterday assert, that
some kind of negotiation for peace is so far 'on the
advance, that little or no more fighting is expected.
The following is an extract from a private letter :

" HELIGOLAND, MAT 17.—The French have succeeded in
getting possession of Fidle, opposite the Grasbrook, and they are
thereby enabled to de much harm to Hamburgh. Flags of truce
have frequently been exchanged between the. French and Team-
born ; the latter insists on the Danes taking possession of Ham.
burgh until a general peace; but the farmer require that they
should occupy the place as a French town. Tettenborn has de.
dared that he %ill not, lu that ease, leave Hamblugh otherwise
than in flames."

The Catholic Bill was lost last night by a majority
of four. In the Committee, the SPEAKER opposed
the Clause providing for the admission of Roman
Catholics into both Houses of Parliament, and moved
its omission. Mr. PONSONJY, on this being carried,
moved that the Chairman should leave the Chair—as

it would have been absurd to enact conditions respect.
ing a boon that was withheld—which was seconded
by General MATHEW, and carried.
The SPEAKER, it will be seen, paid many compli-
ments to the Catholics ; and while he reprobated the
giving them Legislative powers, recommended ad-
mitting them to commands in the Army and Navy,
and to every privilege not inconsistent with his ideas
of Protestant security. He maintained tl,-tt the 1'
in the form in which it was before the House, would
prove acceptable neither to Protestants nor Catholics.
The fate of the Bill proves that to many of one or
both of these classes of subjects, it was objectionable,
and, for the present, it is set aside. Let the enemies
of Emancipation prove their good will to the Catho.
lics by proposing measures, in the form of law,
which they themselves have recommended in argu-
meat. if a sweeping Bill of Emancipation cannot
be so framed as to meet their approval, let particular
cases of complaint be removed as individual evils,
which injure in place of benefiting the Protestant
Establishment. Let a Bill, for example, be brought
in declaring that Roman Catholic subjects may exercise
and enjoy offices of command in the Army and
Navy, any law to the contrary notwithstanding.
—There can certainly be no objection to such a pro•
cedure as we now recommend : nor do we see, at
present, any more effectual way of ascertaining on
what points Parliament is agreed respecting the ex-
tension of privileges to Catholics. To this mode of
proceeding the same objection cannot be started that
has been urged against tlae lost Bill—that these par-
ticular boons will not prove acceptable to the Catho-
lics. We venture to assert, on the contrary, that
however much they may complain of remaining
restraints, they will receive these individual boOns
with gratitude ; and thus will the bounds of exclu-
sion be narrowed, and the bonds of good will and
affection be proportionally strengthened.
The Session is not yet too far advanced for the
commencement of the system which we recommend,
for it is of that nature which requires not that Ro-
man Catholic Bishops should be consulted upon it.
In the view we are now taking of this question, it
would be just as reasonable to consult house-breakers
about laws against theft, as to consult priests (we
mean nothing disrespectful) on the Repeal of those
branches of the Penal Statutes which we have in our
eye. Parliament has nothing to do with the opinions
of any set of men on questions of right and justice to
the King's subjects.

His Royal Highness the PRINCE RECENT gave au-
dience yesterday to Lord LIVERPOOL, Viscount
CASTLEREAGH, and Count MUNSTER.

A Gentleman who yesterday arrived in London
from Dresden and Prague, and who was present
when the Emperor ALEXANDER was accompanied by
General 'hawses' in the former City, says, that
not the least doubt was entertained that a perfret un-
derstanding subsisted between ALEXANDER and the
Saxon General, and that Torgau, with its garrison,
would support the Allies. The King of SAXONY,
previous to his residence at Prague, had a conference
with the Emperor FRANCIS, at Lintz ; and subse-
quently orders were given to receive his Majesty with
-every Royal distinction at Prague. He was attended
by 2000 of his Guards.

ArAPAL IATELLIGENC E.

FALMOUTH, MAY Cc.

Arrived the Francis Freeling packet, with a
from Bermuda, in 18 days.—Sailed the Sandw;.%,
packet, for the Brazilb ; and the Prince Enthest
ket, for Lisbon. Also sailed the It AND s.h^lt,
with four vessels, for the Downs. Wind 1.1c,,v
fresh breezes.

involved the
two points—
lies, and sec
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UNLIT.
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