Star.
London, England, 1823-04-17 00:00:00

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versa mein tektbs_ai higher tone, Spain would not lupe:
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been invaded. . ,
Mr. secretary CANNING rose, and spoke us the. any ottler. Power without tile consent
effect :—Sir, those Honoura reign, and that thble Gentlemen
following I gression of the common law on that subject, certain
tbeiag by far the greater number of those whom.
honour to address), who were not presentsat severe and sanguinary penalties. Wheu peace was,
&ale the
• the commencement of this debate, can hardly iota- concluded between this country and Spain in 1814,
an article was introduced into the Treaty, by which
gioe what a degree of restraint I impose ups an myself
when I say that it is my intention to confine myself 1 I
this country bound itself not to furnish any succours'
"
in what lam about to remark.strictly to the question) to what were then denominated the revolted colonies,
before the House. For those who were .not present of Spain. In process of time, as those colonies ba-J
cannot be aware that, from the very beginning of the came more powerful, a question arose of a very dif-
discussion there has been, whether studiously or ac- ficult nature; to be decided on a due consideration,
eidentally, I know not, a sort of set-off against the of their de jure relation to Spain, and theii de facto
figure which an Hon. and Learned Gentleman last independence of her. The law of nations was entirely
night applied to the benches on this side of the House, silent with respect to the course which, under a cit
when he was describing what he conceived to be the cumstance so peculiar as the transition of colonies
variety of opinions by which those Hon. Gentlemen from their allegiance to the parent State, ought to be
were influenced who were nevertheless disposed to pursued. It was difficult to know how far either ;he
vote fpr the same proposition. Nothing certainly can statute law or the common law was applicable to'
exceed the vacillations of opinion as to the expedi- colonies so situated. It became necessary, there.;
ency of maintaining peace or of declaring war, which fore, in the Act of 1818, to treat the colonies as
we have this night heard from those who have never- actually independent of Spain ; and to prohibit mu:
tbtless concurred in advocating the repeal of the Fo- tually, and with respect to both, the aid which had
reign Enlistment Bill. The repeal of this Bill was hitherto been prohibited with respect to one alone.—
yawed by allobleLord, a professed lover of peace, who Thuss Sir, has the law stood from the year 1818
disclaimed the slightest wish to involve this country down to the present time. I ought to observe, that
is hostility, and who delivered iris sentiments with it was in order to give full and impartial effect to the
tbst Moderation and good sense which distinguishes provisions of the treaty with Spain, sChich prohibited
every effort that he makes in this House—(Hear).— the exportation of arms and ammunition to the Colo-
Ile Motion was seconded by another Noble Lord, of nies, but did not prohibit their exportation to 'Spain,
whose speech the only character which I will give is that the Act of 1818 declared that the prohibition
that it is a contrast to that of his Noble predecessor. should be mutual—a declaration which so little de-
That Noble Lord declared that he was fur war—for serves the character of being hard upon the Colonies,
epee war, and argued in support of a specific snoticn that it was in fact an extension of aiiantage to them.
limply and solely with a view to hostility. Sir, I %Then, however, war became probable between France
sal not follow the Noble Lord through that speech; and Spain, it became necessary to review these rela-
tor it would be necessary, in order that my represen- dons. It was obvious that if war broke out we must
Wien of it should be believed, that lion. Gentle- either extend to France the prohibition which already
men should have been present when it was spoken. existed with respect to Spain, or we must remove
The Lacedenioni,ms wcre in tire habit of deterring from Spain the prohibition to which she was at pre-
their children from intoxication by occasionally cz- sent subject, provided we meant to place the coon-
hibiting their slaves in a state of disgusting.inebriety. tries on an equal footing. As far as the exportation
But, Sir, there is a moral as well as a physical intoxi- of arms and ammunition was concerned, it wasin the
cation. Never before did I behold so complete a per. power of the Crown to remove any inequality be-
sonifiratien of the character which I have somewhere tween the parties, simply by an Order in Council.
teen described, as 4. exhibiting the contortions of the Such an Order was consequently issued, and the pro-
Sybil without her inspiration r'—(l Icor, (rear.) Such Itibition of exporting arms and ammunition to Spain
Ws the nature of the Noble Lord's speech. I will was taken off. By this measure his Majesty's Govern-
. _ _ .

ment afforded a guarantee of their bonifarlineutrality.
It is obvious that the mere appearance of neutrality
might have been preserved by the extension of the,
prohibition to France, instead of by the removal of
the prohibition from Spain ; but it would have been
a prohibition in words only, and not at all in fact,
for the immediate vicinity of the Belgic ports to
France would have rendered the prohibition of direct
exportation to France totally nugatory. So far, Sir,
was this determination on the part of his Majesty's
Government concerted (as some Honourable Gentle-
men have imputed to vs) with France and not with
Spain, that I can assure the House with perfect troth
that the concert, if concert it can be called, was with
Spain, and not with France ; for his Majesty's Go-
vernment stated to Spaio that there were two modes
in which the difference between the privileges of
France and Spain might be equalized by an Order in
Council; either by prohibiting the exportation of arms
and ammunition td France, or by removing the pro-
hibition upon their exportation to Spain ; but it was
also stated to Spain that his Majesty's Government
could not remove that prohibition as it respected
Spain, without removing it also as it respected the
South American Colonies. Such, Sir, Was the mo-
[tire ; namely, to produce an equality between
France and Spain, not. in words but in fact, which
prompted the Order in Council to which I have al-
luded. I desire to consider the Act, for the repeal
'of which the Noble Lord has moved, in precisely the
same-point of view. I desire the House to consider
whether the repeal of that Act would nat have—net
the same, but the correspondent affect to that which
would have been produced by an Order in Council,
prohibiting the exportation of arms and ammunition
to France. Sir, everybody knows, however he may
abstain from saying it, that a repeal of the Act ire
question would be a repeal only in words as respect'
ing France, but a repeal, in fact, as respecting Staid.
Everybody knows that such, a repeal would occasion
an inequality of operation, certainly not intended by
the Noble Mover, who distinctly disclaimed any such
with but no less certainly desired by some other
supporters of the motion, who are not equally impar.
tial. Whether it might or might not be right to tes-
tify a partiality to Spain, is another and a large', ques-
tion. lam arguing on the assumption that the policy
of this country is neutrality; andi maintain that,
whether the repeal of the Bill ought to be considered
as a right or a wrong measure, it cannot be denied,
that it would be an infraction f neutrality. Sir. if
L have succeeded in :hewing that there is ao ground
for repealing this Act, in order to mark our neu-
trality, if I have succeeded in shewing that what
bas been done by his Majesty's Government, mani-
fests, if not neutrality, a leasing, not to the
stronger but to the weaker party, a only remains
for me to examine whether there is anything in
this Act so contrary to the established law of no-
tions as to render it unfit to be longer continued.
Sir, the Act is divided into two plain and distinct
parts; the one prohibiting British subjects from en-
tering into the military service of belligerent States,
the other forbidding the fitting out of privateers for
the service of those States, in British ports with Bri-
tish means and money, or which are to be manned
with British seamen. With respect to the former
past, on which the greater portion of the debate of
this evening has hinged, I agree with my Right Hon.
Friend near me in considering it as the part which
lel the less importance as regards Spain, beta
though there is no doubt that any advantage talc
of the proposed repeal would be in favour of one bel-
ligerent, and that a disposition to violate our neu-
trality on that side, has been already manifested; yet
I do not think that it would go the length which has
been anticipated by many. I do not mean to say
that Spain has shewn herself ungrateful for the ser-
vices of distinguished individuals upon former oc
sion's ; but the laws of Spain have been changed
since that period. I have observed, and so may thdat
who now hear me have observed. that shortly after.
the Speech of the King of France, or, at all event%
ono^ the first burst 01 feeling having Manifested a-
t

w.
not on this occasion reply to it; being of opinion, with
lam sure a great majority of those whom I have the
honour to address, that this is not a fit opportunity
for entering into such a discussion. Let it not be
opposed, however, that I am disposed to shrink
from the discussion; for The Noble Lord may be-
lieve me when I assure him that, however I ntlay
love "truckled" to France, I will never truckle to
litn—(Loud cheers from both sides of the Houu)._
I am perfectly ready to meet the Noble Lord and
the Honourable Gentleman near him, on the whole
of this case, whenever they may please to bring it
regularly under the consideration of the House ; and
I postpone my reply only until the opportunity which
has been promised shall occur, and because the pre-
scut measure must be discussed, if discussed at all,
only on the assumption that we arc to preserve our
nei.trality.. If the question which the Noble Lord,
mid the Honourable Gentlemen on the other side of
the House, wish to agitate, is, whether the true p-
iny of this country is war or neutrality ; if that is to
le the issue in the debate of which they have given
aotice, I can have no possible objection, when the
proper time shall arrive, to meet them, and enter
iato that discussion ; and I am confident I shall be
Fesferaly Able to show that, whether the question be
nested with reference to the national .security and the•
sitional interests, or to the equally important con;
Iteration cf the national honour, or the course of
policy which wisdom and justice have marked out
for this country, in the present state of the world, is
neutrality—neutrality, as long as it can be preserved'
eminently with our interests and our honour-{leer).
-Sir, as 1 have already declared, I quarrel with' ne•
was who entertains an opposite opinion. I am per-,
tectly ready to meet the advocates for war, and wit&
cut imputing to them any but the most honourable
motives; tut I must be allowed to postpone my u-
pfront on that point until the proper time shall at-
rive for its production. In the meanwhile, I have a
tau right to protest against charges, which no mai
ought to permit himself to throw out at random,
!hen he knows that they cannot be conveniently re-
piled ti>.• However, Sir, I will not be tempted by any
utemperate or premature observations into a debate
en a subject not yet before the House. Whenever that
subject comes fairly before us, let it be fully invests-
gated ; let the true policy of this country be *seer-
iamb and let the conduct of his Majesty's Govern-i
meat be judged of by the standard which Parliament
lay think proper to establish—( Hear, hear). In the
absence of such a discussion, and such a result, I shall;
lake it for granted that both in this House•and in the
to witty at large, the prevalent feeling is in concurrence
with the course which his Majesty's Government have
fliought it their duty to adopt. If, in assuming that
la be the case, I am assuming that which is not true,
the Noble Lord and the Honourable Gentlemen op-
rage will soon enjoy the opportunity of setting me
nght, and of dissipating the unhappy delusion under
altich I labour. But, assuming that to be the fact
(forwe must have some foundation on which to argue),
ilwoceed to discuss the merits of the Noble Lord's
!lotion, in reference to a system of neutrality. It was
'Weed in reference to a system of neutrality that the
lieble Lord brought forward that Motion—it was in
.taference to a system of neutrality that the Noble
,Leetts Motion was supported by an Honourable
4lntle M an near him (Dr. Lushington) who always
a a light upon whatever subject he investigates.
malloubtedly, I should very much misrepresent the
character of the speech of the Noble Lord who se-
"bled the Motion, were I to assert that it had
the SMallest reference AO neutrality —(A laugh).—
Still., upon a fair estimate of suffrages, I think I
""e a right to conclude, that among the supporters
of the Noble Lord's motion the advocates for neu-
-111147 bear at least an equal proportion to the advo-
cates for war. It is therefore in reference to a system
of ktlteality 111011 C that I shall consider myself justi-
ted ro coi,identig the Noble Lord's proposition.
"w, Sir, let. me, in the first place, recal the attention
0' the Lionce to the precise nature and state of the
The Act of Parliament which the Nobk

thakratentry , ,-.., .should be-penalttiet:WitL,,_ Jfi
their hearts, to agree —tip. to the fu'llrankiiriatilath
L;1 laasitir-ea. Oat here, at leastist.ho' e-erx :spoor
temptation held out to induce tint co-aperavon ea( 1).!
military spirit, skill, and enterpilieoftlils country. in
support of the Spanish cause. tliave also 'reason to
form this opinion -from a recollection of what took
place upon former and no very distaut occasions.--;
When the army of England last fought in Spain.
they fought in favour of an united People against a
foreign foe. How altered is the case at present ?
Who is there who could wish to see Englishmen on'
entering the Spanish territory opposed, not to the
foes of Spain, but presenting their bayonets against
'the breasts of Spaniards—(Hear, hear). This, I con.
fess, is a sight which I should rather not witness. In
one case, perhaps; a feeling of gratitude might be
created in the minds of Spaniards, though I confess
that upon this point I am not very sanguine ; for I
recollect, that though something like gratitude was
manifested by the Spaniards for the services rendered
by the English during the late war, there was also on
the embarkation of our troops a public gratulation of-
fered up that•SpAin had been cleared of bereticsl—
This_ I am aware arose out of the bigotry of the Spa-
dish Government; and here I cannot help observing,
that the charge of bigotry urged against Spain in her
dealings with her Colonies is incorrect; indeed, the
reverse is the fact, the main obstacle having been the
difficulty of managing their popular assemblies.—
There is a peculiarity of character in Spain, which,
from its reserve, makes the Spaniard a Spaniard and
nothing else; this feeling may perhaps serve to knit
them more closely together, and render them more
national; and 1:lis feeling, too, may, and it is to be
hoped will, have the effect of extinguishing the-feuds
and party differences by which they are at present
unhappily distracted —(lleart hear), But still it . is'
no less true that there exists in Spain at.this moment a
feeling, which even if the proposed repeal takes place,
is not the most calculated to induce strangers to make
common cause with them. But I consider the other
branch- of the case of infinitely greater importance. A
Noble. Lord made allusion, and with great fairness, to
'a speech made by me upon a former evening, in
which I endeavoured to point otit what were the duties
.imposed
upon us by adhering to a strict neutrality.
from the observations which had been made, it would
appear that neutrality in any case was considered un-
becoming the English nation. Good cotal is it dis-
graceful to England to remain neutral in any case?
Cannot this country remain a quiet spectator, in the
event of any contest between its neighbours, without
'drawing down the severest charges against its Go-
vereunent ? Are we bound to counteract the decrees
of PROVIDENCE, and,
_in contradiction to the lan-
guage of the Poet, to declare that, because we are
insulated, we are therefore to become more prone to
war than nations which are conterminons?..(fieer,
hear). It has been argued by many that occasions
might, frequently arise which would lead ns into war,
but never have I before heard it laid down "as a prin-
ciple,. that, in the. event of any Continental quarrel
Great Britain must never be at peace. It has been
said by many Gentlemen that sooner or Liter we
must he drawn into the war. 'Why then, 'if so, I
say later (Cheers on both sides. of she House). 1
say, it we must be drawn into the war, let us be
drawn into it upon clearly British grounds (Cheers).
1 do not say, GOD forbid I shonld;that it is not the
duty of England to preserve the balance of power,'
and-to protect the weaker against the assaults Of the
stronger Power ; but I mallards that, in doing ao.
there are.previous,considerations which call for your
most serious attention.— You are bound to in-
quire in the first instance, whether your grOund for
interference be a just one; you must nest consider of
the prudence of your means, and the probability of,
their successful application to the' cause which you
espouse; and lasi, though not least, the effect which
such an interference would be likely to prodace upon
the interests and prOsperity of the country—'(Hear,
hear). There may be cases where a-self.devotion and.
a glorious abandonment of the great interests of tblit
nation may sound well from she lips of anirreatima.,
Bible orator ; but L as a Minister of the Crown, feeling
deeply the weight of my responsibility, wield truly
deserve the *fate with which-a Noble Lord' opposite
(Folkstone) has menaced :Mein the course of the ev
ing, dish/ allow Myself for a moment to lose tight&
those inter. *mon. to forget what the honour and ;ha-
ractet of the catmtry demand of nie—(Cheers). If it be
the WM of the Hon. Members opposite to shorten the
duration of the war, then I say that the position we
have taken is by far more efficaeioitsthan any we could
ossumeby all Owing ourselves to he pre maturel ydrawn
into a participation in the contest—(Hear, hear, hear).
A participation, did .1 say? Who is there that, re-
reflecting the etents of the last twenty years, will
say that a 4, participation" was the manner in which
England entered upon Continental wars? No, Sir,
if we now eater'upou.aavar, we most do as we did
upon former occasions; we must take the whole bur-
then of the contest upcso us. But supposing such to
be our course, how different must be our setuatieenai
compared with former periods? When welast-
came the defenders of Spaie, we.fought for and with
an united people. What was the case et present ?,-,.,
Any interference on our part iu favour of Spain mu
commence with an attempt to unite contending bao:j
dons, and to stimulate men of opposite interestesiaidl
opposite feelings to one grand and simultaneous '!f.
fort—(Heir, koar).—Now, 1 do-not hesitate to say,l
that the man who would undertake to do this, under I
present circumstances, either must be possessed 4
supernatural means of information, or else possess
of a hardihood which I envy, but shall not imitatal.
tri
I say that those men will not consult the true digit'
of the country, who, finding fault with the part we'
have adopted, wish to indemnify themselves by me..,
deavouring to make us perform that part amiss. WTI
course is neutrality—strict neutrality; and, in the.
name of Goa let us adhere to it (Cheers.) If you dis-
like that course—if you think it injurious to the ho.l
nour or interests of, the country, drive from *girl
places those neutral Ministers who have adopted it t
but until you are prepared to declare war,. you art
bound to adhere to the system which Ministers have
laid down (Hear, Irear.) ' / statelip few nights agile,
that we could !tartar() difficulty in the coarse Wilt*

.
coarse 111 ey 124 7qcokkle
.... ~. _ _
meAdted to neutral
,I were ;von former occasions,
KA wished to seek at sufde in a system of neutrality)
AghoUldtake that laid downby America in theAays
othe Presidericy of 4i:ilitAgton, and the Secretary-
•p of JeffeTson. In 1790,crimylaints were made to
the Ameriems-GovTrument, that rreich ships were
allowed to fit out and arm in American ports, for the
purpose of attacking :British vgisels„ in direit pppesi-
tiem to the laws of netitsidity.: timediatelj upon this
representation, the American Government held that
each a fitting out was contrary to th lases of neutraifty,
And orders were issued,-prohibitirig the irniirign( ally
french vessels in American pc:lined 4thlew York, a
French vessel fitting out was xitted,4l)ivered ovee to
the tribunals and condemned. I.lponShilipecta.tipoihe
American Government held *that sasehllliniy pot of
French ships in American portst forth. purpose of
cruising against English vessels,„,..nosnAeconapetible
with the suveieigitty of the United Stases*,and tend
to interrupt the peace and good understanding which.
subsisted between that country and Great Britais.".—
Here, I contend, is the principle of neutrality upon
which we ought to act. It was upon this principle
that the Bill in' question, was enacted. I. dtt not now
pretend to argue in favour of a system of neutrality,
but it being declared that we intend to remain neu-
tral, I call upon you to abide by that declaration, so
long as it shall remain unaltered. .No matter what
ulterior course we may be inclined to •adopt—no
matter whether, at some ulterior period, the honour
and interests of the country may force us into a war;
still, while we declared ourselves neutral, we are
bound to avoid passing the strict line of demarcation.
When war does come, if come it must, let us enter
into it with all the spirit and energy which becomes
us as a great and independent nation—ifit does come,
let it be in resistance of some injury attempted, or in
seeking satlifaction for some violated treaty, but, in
GOD'ii nurse, let it not arise out of a petty-fogging at-
tempt to cruise or fight for gain-,—(Cheerej—let us not,
at all events, be sneaked into a war; I say once again,
let_us abide strictly by gqr neutrality, as, long as we .
mean to adhere to it, and by so 'doing we shall, in the
event of any necessity for ab:indong that system, be
the better able to enter with effect upon any other
coarse which the pnlicy, of the country nut require.
—(Hear, Hear, Hear 1 ) .
Mr. DENMAN warmly and ably appeetild the motion. He
hoped and expected that the Moose would not be deterred front
doing what they thought right .by any threat op the part of fo.
reign Powers, who woola preemie to interfere with their free.
*dont of action. - • - •

Lord ALTHOSPIR briefly replied in a tone that *at not ea.
Bible in the gallery.
The House then divided, when there appeared-.
For the Motion - - .. 110
Against it - - - 416

Majority - - —lO6
The ether Orders of the Day "Pere then disposed of, and the
Rouse adjourned at Tarawa &Clock. •

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