Star.
London, England, 1822-05-11 00:00:00

~a

.16T*;

I

• I ;

;;~

iI. ,

.~

1
ii

I:

'i
'~

had been ___ people s.
ing on the highways, and nothing had yet been done!
It was true. that it was a delicate question to inter-
fere in the subsistence of a country ; but cases of ne-
cessity might arise to justify that interference, and
when cases of a different nature had arisen, the Noble
Earl opposite had sheen that be knew the import-
anci of losing no time in the adoption of repressive
measures- What was the motion? To ascertain the
fact whether Ministers had or had not done their
*y, in taking measures to relieve distress. If they
bad done it, the production of the Correspon
Would be to their credit. If they had not, it would
slime a shameful neglect of duty, which would maks
it lisiparetive on the House to interfere.
Lona ELLENDOROUGH trusted that his Noble
Friend would carry his motion to a division. He
was anxious that the question should be sifted to the
bottoin. The existence of great distress in Ireland
was all that was known, and there was no proof that
any good had yet been done by Government, or by
' the assistance of individuals. The Noble Earl oppo-
site tacit of political economy, but if political eco-
nomy prevented the relief of millions of suffering
people, he should consider it the greatest curse to
humanity. Instead of voting £350,000 a year for
an additional force in Ireland, he should prefer voting
that sum for additional food. He wished the Govern.
ment to appear in this transaction, and the principle
on which it acted to be established.
The Earl of BLESINTON stated, that the prin-
ciple on which the Committee in the City acted, was
to send money wherever local subscriptions had been
formed in Ireland, to assist them. When 1:2000 had
been raised, they sent £lOOO.
The Earl of DAItNLEY expressed his intention of
dividing the House, if the Noble Earl should not, on
reconsideration, think that he owed to their Lordships
and to the country, something mote satisfactory than
his mere assertion.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said, that as there
had been a deficiency in the crop of potatoes, but in
to other, the course for his Majt.sty's Government to'
adopt, after having ascertained that fact, was easy.
It had only to send money to enable the distressed to
buy other food, which was in abundance, and to
supply seed in order to secure a future crop, and tot
prevent a recurrence of the distress. Both of these]
had been done, and he did not know what more could
be wanted.
Lord HOLLAND wished to know why this pro-
digious secrecy, if all this had been done? But lie
also wished to know whether it had been done in

proper time?
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, that the Noble
Earl should have his vote, if he could mention the,
date at which assistance had been sent, and its extent.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that many weeks
past, instructions had been given to send relief to
Ireland ; but he was not able at that moment to state
the exact time.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE contended, that
without the date the House would not know whether
anything had been done to remove present and to
prevent future distress. Famine did not come on so
suddenly, and if the Irish Government had not in-
formed his Majesty's Ministers of its approach earlier
than some weeks ago, it had not done its duty.—
Their Lordships then divided :
Contents -
Won-Contents

Majority against the :11otion
FINANCIAL ARRANGEMENTS.

-13

The Marquis of LANSDOWN asked what ob-
jection the Noble Earl opposite could have to allow-
ing the Commissioners of the Sinking Fund to attend
the bargain for the dead money, and to take it?
There was a clause in Mr. l'itt's Act empowering
them to do so, and he could not conceive why they
should not do it, and thus secure to the Public the
advantage which would result to the Contractors at
the expiration of forty-five years. Whilst we made
sacrifices to relieve posterity by maintaining a Sink-
ing Fund, we threw an additional burthen upon that
same posterity by the present arrangement. Why
then should we not make it in the mode most
favourable, and cheapest to ourselves? We had an
establishment able, and safer than any other body, to
take and execute the contract, why not use it for the
public benefit? In this he expressed no opinion as
to the propriety of keeping up the machinery of the
Sinking Fund, but he knew that the Noble Earl
thought it should be supported, and if it were to be
kept up, why not make it available to the public ser-
vice in a manner which must ultimately increase its
amount ? He wished it were possible to introduce a
short Bill to enable the Commissioners for the Sink-
ing Fund to attend and t:rke the bargains for the
dead money. His Lordship then moved for a Re-
turn of the number of Banks in England consisting
of three, four, or six partners.
_ _

-- •
The Earl of LIVERPOOL had no objection what•
ever to this motion. With respect to the observations
which had fallen from the Noble Marquis, he would
say, that it was true there was a clause enabling the
Commissioners of the Sinking Fund to make a loan to
the country; but this was an optional, not a com-
pulsory clause, and it had always been left to the
judgment of Government during the whole of the
war, to consider and determine whether it was more
advantageous to take a loan from that fund, or to
obtain it from the Public. He recollected that at the
commencement of the last war, a Gentleman now no
-led to a loan from the Public, con-
le to be imperative with respect to the
It was then explained that its nature
optional. In the greater number of
last war, it had been the general
, was •more for the advantage of the
-.tow the Sinking Fund to operate as it
market, than to apply to it for a loan. It
intention to enter into the question,
'rely depend on the nature of the bar-1
hould be made. He and his Right
riend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
rms, and had fixed in their own minds
they thought should be accepted. If
obtain them, or any which they con-
itly advantageous, it would be their
'as their intention, to refuse. But if

pin with any set of Contractors.. . would state
in no case, even in that of a loan contracted by
Government, was the WOW bbund to approve of
what had been done. It -retained the powteef awk
gativing such a contract or such a loan without any
breach of good faith. It was true that in such cases
a deposit was made, but it lay in the Bank and was
never touched till the Bill had received the Royal
Assent. If the Bill were not passed, the deposit was
returned, and that was all. In the present case,
therefore, the discussion of any contract which might
be made would remain perfectly open to the House.
Earl GREY expressed himself satisfied with this
explanation, but could not understand how it could
be for the benefit of the public to give to a set of con-
tractors the advantages which it might derive from
the bargain being taken up by the .Commissioners for
the Sinking Fund. The simpler mode would be to
repeal taxes to the amount required from the Sinking
Fund.—The motion was then agreed to, and the
House adjourned till Monday.

HOUSE OF COMMON&
Sir W. LEMON presented a Petition from Cornwall, com-
plaining of Agricultural Distress, and against lowering the du-
ties on imponation.—Laid on the table.
Mr. RA WIDEN presented a Petition from the Merchant&
and Manufacturers of Sheffield, praying an alteration in the laws
relating to Insolvent Debtors.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. BYNG presented a Petition from the Parish of St.
Matthew, Bethnal-green, complaining of the cruelty exercised
in driving bullocks.—Ordeted to be printed.
Lord STANLEY presented a Petition from certain Unitarian
Dissenters of Cotteedale, in Lancashire, praying an alteration in
the Marriage Act.—Laid oa the table.
Mr. M A RRYATT presented a Petition from the 361 p
Owners of Leith and Kirkcaldy, against the Navigation Laws.
—Laid bn the table.
Mr. ItUMBOLD presented a Petition from the Shipping
Merchants of Great Yarmouth, praying a repeal of the Duties
on Salt.—Laid on the table.
Mr. SCOTT presented a Petition from the Unitarian Die-
senters of Wkitchurch, for an alteration in the Marriage Act.—
Laid on the table.
Mr. SCOTT presented a similar one from Crichton, in Sussex.
The third reading of the Mak Duties Repeal Bill was post-
poned until Monday.,
Mr. HUTCHINSON presented a Petition from the several
Distillers in Ireland in favour of that BIS.
Mr. WILBERFORCE complained of a Misrepresentation
which had appeared relative emanate remarks he had made on
an lion. Member (Mr. Wynn) in the debate on the Pontius-
ters-General.
Mr. C. W. WYNN was obliged to the Hon. Gentleman for
the statement which he had just made. So far as he was perso-
nally concerned, he most my that he had never conceived his
words had the application imputed to them.

Astlaidaties admit hart the consumes, It also abews that pro-
tar: sales neptot serve the grouper; for Isere the deities ere
so as to abut eat all foreign hops, and yet She Mt-Plasters
are boa the glut of the he the mathig. The tenth
is, that the dilly digit at oho -Wag deities h Nadine the far-
mer to the home market ' -it glees Meow feeiffity of ezpoothg."
The Petition was then had. The pedthmen stated tint the
ditties on hops ansountea to a third of the proceeds of sak•—.l
Ordered to be painted.
ROMAN CATHOLICS.
Mr. L. BECK presented a Petition from the Churchwardens
of the Palish of Iddington, in Leicestershire, against the Ito-
man Catholic Peers' Bill.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. H. SUMNER presented a Petition from the Church-
wardens and Vestry of St. Saviour's, Southwark, agreed upon
this day in Vestry, against the Roman Catholic Peer filiL The
Petition was also signed by 500 of the most respectable inhabit-
ants of the parlsh.—Ordered to Neon the table.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL presented a similar Peti-
tion from the Archdeacon and Clergy of the Diocese of Can-
terbury. The petitioners stated that it was unjust to the Ro-
man Catholic population to grant to a few individuals those pri-
vileges which the wisdom of Parliament had refused to the
whole body. A consequence of admitting Roman Catholic
Peers would be an admission of Roman Catholic Commoners,
Roman Catholic Bishops to the Lords; and a consequence of
the whole would be the destruction of that beautiful fabric erected
by our ancestors at the Revolution. In all these sentiments the
Honourable Member expressed his entire concurrence.
Mr. BROUGHAM said he would endeavour, however diffi-
cult the undertaking, to allay, by a word of memo or two, those
dreadful fears and terrifying alarms ander which the lion. Me-
mber and those sage pethitioners laboured.—(A laegh).—They
seemed to think that, if six Noblemen were let Into the Lords,
the next step would be to open the doors of the How of Com-
mons ' and the next step, that the whole House of Commons
would become Papists ; and that the result of all would be, to
let Catholic Bishops take their places amongst the Right Rev.
Lords in another place. Now it might be possible to administer
some comfort to these Gentleinen (although, upon some minds,
fear had the effect of_blinding reason), by telling them that those
barriers, and that beautiful outwork against the admission of
Catholic Peers to the other House, so creditable to the wisdom
of our ancestors, was little better than a fence of osier. It might
be well to remind these Petitioners, that so slight was the ob-
struction presented by the oath, that the Mufti of the 'Forks—
(A laugh)—nay, the Jewish Rabbis-4f any of those long-bearded
gentry were in the country, could, if they were elected, get into
Parliament, if they could only say that they were Christians.—
Of course a Turk would have no hesitation in disclaiming
not only the Pope's " civil" power, but also his " spiritual
and ecclesiastical," or his existence altogether. Therefore, thin,
the only bar to the admission of Turks was the accidental use of
the worth at the end of the oath—" And this I swear upon the
faith of a Christian !"—(Hear).—On that word Christian, a
member of the Greek Church could as readily get admission into
that House as the best Protestant in the country—( Hear).
Sir F.. KNATCHLIULL said, whatever might be the case
with respect to the Mufti, or the Archbishop of Jerusalem, he
felt it incumbent on him to oppose the admission of Roman
Catholic Peers to the Parliament of England.
Iklr. BROUGHAM said, thai for the satisfaction of the lion.
Baronet (Sir F. Kdatchbull) he would explain his observation
relative to the Greek Church. He meant, if he had the honour
to be the Patriarch of Constantinople--(Hear, and laughter)--

. • - _
there was nothing to prevent him coming into that House. As
the principles of the Greek would admit him to take the oaths
and subscribe to the tests and declaration—(Hear).
Mr. LUSH INGTON said that he would rather vote for the
whole measure of favour to the Catholics than fur any partial
boon, which could not have any effect in allaying the irritation
of the general body on the subject—Petition read, laid on the
table, and ordered to be printed.
• Mr. PEEL presented a Petition from the Dean and Preben-
diry of the Diocese of Canterbury ; also one from the Episcopal
Church of the Parish of Longacre ; and one front the Magis-
trates of the Borough of Kilmarnock ; all against the Catholic
Claims.—Laid on the table, and ordered to be printed.
Lord Il(yr HA M presented a Petition from the Mayor, Alder-
men, and Burgesses of the Town of Beverley, against the Roman
Catholic Peers' Bill—Ordered to be printed.
_ _ _ _

Mr. hIANSFIELD presented a Petition from several
Parishes hi the Town and County of Leicester, against the pro-
poses' admission of Roman Catholic Peers to P.irliament.—Laid
on tke tabh:.

..

Tern:tined in full force. The
,olio Peers from Parliament was,
principle in the Revo
gal facts aturdocuments to wh,
The Hon. Member then pros
, from correspondence between
James Second and the. Prince and Princess
Orange, their Highnesses assented to
position for repealing the Penal Statutes against
' tholics-L(Hear, MO.—Gentlemen should stop
they had heard the whole of the sentence betore
cried' 'Hear." He would call " Hear, bear,"
rensainder, which ran thus:—,, Provided CathOli
were still excluded from both Houses of Parliament,
and from all high offices in the State, Army, and
Navy, as their Highnesses would not, on any as.
count; repeal the lest." At the Revolution, also,
the Coronation Oath was established. in its present
form. The Stuarts took no such oath. At the Union
with Scotland, the same course was pursued, for it
was made an article of the Union, that the sixteen
Elective Peers of Scotland should be Protestaii
The Bill of Rights was calculated to guard the Prf,_
testant Establishment; and he could not but .:xl,,e,s
his surprise at the assertion of a Right Hon. Friend (a
his, thatthe exclusion of Catholics was not a piincti:le
'established at the Revolution. As to the chai
of the present measure, he must sat, he expected li':
old doctrine of "Charity begins at home" would m::
have prevailed, and that some Member, the Noble
Lord who brought forward a motion for Parliamen-
tary Reform, would have proposed to have exte,ided
the privileges of his own House, rather than see this
House introducing Catholic Peers into the other
House, forgetting the claims of Commoners, and aid-
ing to sign eight or nine patents of Peerage; whilst
another Noble Lord (Folkestone) had contended, that
this House was nominated by Peers, or at lea't a
majority of it. Why was the Peer to be reinvigorated,
and not at the same time the Commoner, in the en-
joyment of his rights? The Peer was to take no oaths,
but not so the Commoner: was that to be borne ? iz
had been said, that a Peer had a right, A priori, t,i
legislate, but not so the Commoner ; but the
tion here did not apply, as both the Peer and the
Commoner laboured under the same disabilities.—
, The reason stated in the Statute of Elizabeth, why
Peers should sit in the House of Lords, was, that
they were more under her own eye. But he could
see no sound distinction between the Catholic Com-
moner and the Peer. In that House to t; had been
introduced in the case of Catholic Peers ano Com-
moners. That had been the case in all forme: ;
and he would ask the 200 Gentlemen who had v :ed
for those tests in 1821, what made such a btoad di:-
tinction between 1821 and 1822 ? What becan,e iif
all the provisions and securities in Mr. thailans
Bill, when feelings led him to introduce nothing
except what he believed to be absolutely :trio ii:-
dispensably necessary ? In the Bill of Mr. G attaa
there was no correspondence with the See of Rome.
He wished to know why the Peers should be exempted
from all tests, while, on a future day, tests %%ere
to be imposed on all other classes of Cathoiks ?
Why was the new test of Supremacy, milk and waler
as it was, that had been imposed last year, to be omi:-
ted in the present Bill ? It had been said, that the
absence of a Popish claimant called for a toleration
of the laws, but though the greater danger had
vanished, the less still remained. If it was said that
a Peer had an a priori tight to legislate without tests,
the King might say, in the same way, 111.1 t he might
wed a Catholic consort, if no danger could be di eaded
from it. Ile would say that a combination of eight
or nine men might acquire a much greater poser
than they could possess from numerical strength Ii
the third estate, the King, was subjected to restric-
tion for the public good, similar restrictions were ai,u
equitable in the case of individuals of the other two
estates. In all the States of Europe, from Austria to
Venice, the Roman Catholic submitted to restrictio:is
which he here refused to submit to, in order to pro-
cure a seat in Parliament. An application had been
made by the Court of Rome to that of Madrid, to
alter certain oaths, to which the Court of Madrid gave
an unqualified refusal. In the year 1736 there hal
been a remonstrance addressed to the Empers)r by
the Catholic States of Germany, against the enc:oach-
ments of the Pope, and the encroachments were im-
mediately put a stop to by the Imperial authority.—
Was Protestant Britain, then, to do what Catholic
Spain and Germany had both refused? The Gentle-
men who formerly voted for restrictions, if they
supported the present Bill, "turned their backs upon
themselves"—(A laugh)--and their own arguments.
It was observed, by the friends of the Bill, that Ca-
tholic Emancipation had been advocated by the great
men of all political parties—that it had been as!ve-
cated by Pitt, by Fox, by Burke, by Sheridan—tl'at
it was one of those causes which, as Virgil said—

" Mobilhate viget, eiresque acquirit tondo."
But he denied that the present measure was at all
similar in its principle to any which had heiet,,fore
been proposed. It was a measure for unquai!fied
'emancipation ; whereas all the measures which plo•
ceded it had been for qualified emancipation. 'PIC
Hon. and Learned Gentleman expressed his regict
that, with all his respect fOr the Right Honourable
author of the Bill, he could not conscientiously ccr
cur in it, and concluded by moving as an Amendment,
that the Bill be read a second time that day six month,
Mr. WILMOT was of opinion that the present measure pct.
sensed some advantages that did not belong to others that had
been before the House. He could see nu need of securities
without danger, and in the admission of a few Catholic Peers
to the other House he saw no danger whatever. He had seen
in another place, when the question was discussed eight yea's
ago, a Cathslic Peer, with his son, a boy about twelve years of
age, in his hand, who observed to a Gentleman near him, that
upon the issue of that debate it depended whether he shatild
check or encourage a spirit of conciliation in his son.
Mr. FORSTER had upon former occasions opposed the
claims of the Catholics ; but the case had been materially alterei
by the union of the two kingdoms. By the present measure .19
anomaly would be added to that upon the Statute; but OP
mately there would be a necessity for such a measure.
Dr. PHILLIMORE was surprised to hear the House di,-
suaded from listening to the measure on the score of consistencY,
for there was no inconsistency in supporting the present measure:
The House might consistently vete for the present Bill, ‘viihou
any pledge as to its future conduct. No one bad objected r
the. admission of Presbyterian Peers to the House of Lao,
though that sect had formerly subverted the Church of Lugiand
Mr. COURTENAY said, It was necessary te consider under
what circumstances the restrictions had been imposed, and wilY
they had been continued. No alarm was felt at Catholic hers
having free access to kis Majesty. The language of the Acts ".•
William, Anne, and George 1. stated, as the cause of chow Ac,i
against the Papists, the security of theiProtestant Successoui, by
extinguishing the hopes of the Popish line. By the opersiiou of
the Annual Indemnity Act, any man, a Catholic not excepted,
might sit i 4 that Muse. The highest ranks in the Army and

, , ,
commencement of
11 more had objecte
ceiving the clause
1 Sinking Fund. I
I; was entirely opt
I cases during the
. .
opinion, that it I
country to allow
1
t' '1 ' did in the market
s
, was not now his i
' 11 '
1, as it must entire'
ii gain which thou
• ! .
Honourable Frier
were to hear tern
c I those which the]
they could not o
ceived sufficient'
duty, and it was
. ,
i

----"• ' . - . V W-Volowrr ,-- - ..
4., • I-. 7V-'rit• .- r r viNgrr's -T-- z-^7‘l`,Pwrwr'"4- -1"14A11=7.41=041.7"11NPF - -
. - .. . • ~: . •
•
. • • .•
. ' .
, • „ . . -
. .
• ...., . 'k‘ .
..
,
4., .. gt
.. .. . .
• SI, •,,,b —I. -.3 ',lb a 1: . A ...), • ..
•
it the liimatatiitidito to
illid
-11014..-----.
as., .1 -
ritositar'
Mtn cher 'at had been done, had no ditienkri, saying th,t, .. * WITIM be mere ar Thu .
sad that re won conse too lae. And yet the advantageous thanany _ with Abe coin. nemmoter
=rum
saw
hem
pastctimg2 ea ifigit . .
o" lion
eclat Caathproilni
Sage Earl who ast spokes, was satisfied with missionen of ;he Sink_ing.Fun . la dn. hope. ex- thq wire as the Nikes, asaiety, hr the et WIN by historic:
a Ancei-rip • sin the contemplation Of pressed by a Noble Earl (WV/ a Fe." •dals unser ..,....ft 12 NA—. there" blealeserthstaB6"litat t.hi5e"11,„"1•111....,. woted advert. TI
i! -Gb &sures of relief. But what that the House would not be bound by previous con- 17;trer Sal
should
task
gossamers
vet
to
tear
a wane.
es. to read extracts frc
had been those seeasures ? The people were perish- tract before it came to discuves4llo-natare, af the bar-
. ..!.. —4l. ...... sec of Contractors, he would state that intacimhir. illingnem in fern helm thereat of prelates thass.
James the Second
RICAZDO ask—is If this argument shays that pre. Orange, in which
• - -A. - - _ ---..-. 2 2

The
Iva; he
%cal
Imo he
ocrek!ed
en Kin.,
ncess of
o a pro..
iinst Ca.
stop till
ore they
,' to the
:athOlics
'Hameln,
iny, and
any ac.
111, also,
present
le Union
tor it
e sixteea
stair
the Ptn-
t
Friend (a•
ptincti:le
:hal acc.:
ected
vid now
he Noble
exte;itied
3 see that
he other
and aid-
whilst
ded, that
at leaq a
igorated,
in the en-
no oaths,
iorne ?
priori, t,)
ie disiine-
and die