Star.
London, England, 1822-03-19 00:00:00

number had been reducea to 262. Thus the Muse'
wouli see that a reduction, had been made. he.
Hon. Gentleman doubted whether the principle of
ibringing superannuated Officers back to .active:ser-
vice would be acted upon:- He wished to see a prac-
tical proof of it. He could give him.. an instance
already. It happened in the Admiralty Office, and
in his own patronage, that a:Clerk hid been wanted.
No Clerk of that class had been superannuated. He
might therefore have been justified in exercising his
own patronage by filling it up in the usual way. He
had, however, gone to his Ilonotrable Friend the
Comptroller of the Navy, and asked if he had such
a one as was wanted to recommend ? The answer
was, " Yes, I have one on my Siipeiannuation List;"
and thus, to act on the pi inciple which had been laid
down for the public benefit, he had gone out of his
own office, which he was not bound to do, in order
that a Clerk who had been superannuated in the Navy
Office, might be brought forward into active service.
Ile had done this to bring back a man who, from the
tecommendation he received, he knew to be a good
one, but he would not, for the sake of false popu-
larity, bring back a person he believed to be inefficient.
Mr. HUME gave credit to the Hon. Gentleman
for what he had done, and wished all his colleagues
might act the same part. He (Mr. Croker) had de-
scribed the reduction in numbers which had taken
place since 1813 ; but he had not mentioned the re-
duction in expense which had taken place since that
year in the Admiralty, Navy, Pay, and Victualling
Offices. In 1813 the amount was 1:189,225. Then
as they %. ent on making reductions year after year,
what did the House think this sum had been reduced
to at last? It had been brought down, in IS2I, to
153,0361. being a reduction in seven yeais of 1,1691.
The Hon. Gentleman was correct in stating the tees
to have been enormous in 1792 ; but these had been
abolished in 1797, and the salaries fixed at 38,007/.
This proved what he had previously stated to be cor-
rect. He hoped a greater reduction in the expense
would be made in future years.—The Resolution
was then agreed to.
On a motion for a v-ant to cover the contingent
expenses of the Victualling Office, of 34,8171.

Mr. HUME wished to. know why so many Com-
missioners were necessary? He objected to the,
and moved that the sum be reduced to 53,214rai1l

Sir JOSEPH YORKE wished to know why an ad-
dltional medical man had been appointed?
Sir G. COCKBURN explained the circumstances
v.;:ich had made the appointment necessary, and
sl:cwed that though one might slur over the business,
o were necessary to perform it in a proper manner.
When the business of the department was looked into,
he was col:filet-it it would be seen that the present
E.lmber of Commissioners was not too great.
Mr. BENNET could not understand why nearly
the same Civil Establishment should be required with
our present Navy,'as that necessary formerly.
Sir G. COCKBURN shewed that the accounts had
accumulated much to the public detriment at the
close of the war. Deficiencies had in consequence
been found, and a loss had been sustained from the
death of those who had been the securities for per-
sons employed. It had, therefore, not been thought
expedient to reduce the establishments immediately.
He thought the Committee would agree that with
such duties, two Medical Officers were not too many.
The Commissioners also were indispensably necessary,
considering the multifarious nature of the busiuess
they were required to perform.
Sir J. YORKE said, that although the Inspector of
Hospitals had been reduced, he had no doubt but
that he retired upon a pension of 6001. a year.
Mr. BERNAL said, that he saw the same objec-
tions to the vote which had occurred to his Honour-
able Friend, the Member for Shrewsbury. At a time
of peace, when there were only 121 vessels in ordi-
nary, he conceived that there was no necessity for a
Chairman and six Commissioners.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, that many clerks had
been dismissed because they were not found efficient
in checking the victualling accounts. The duty now
si2volved upon the Commissioners, and he was con-
vinced that the opposite of economy would be the
result of reducing them. •
Mr. HUME said, that the business would be done
with too; e effect by three or four Commissioners than
by seven, as that number would be always compelled
to attend. He should, therefore, press the Amendment.
Sir G. CLERK defended the Commissioners.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN said, that constituted as the
Board now was, no Officer could be reduced.
The Committee then divided—
For the Amendment 50
For the Resolution 66
Majority in favour of the otizinal Resolution —36
The next Resolution was for granting the sum of
R 25,000 for the service of the Deptford Yard.
Mr. BERNAL said, that he had discovered various
differences in the Estimates voted by the House, and
the accounts afterwards laid on the table. The I-lon.
Member compared the estimates and accounts for
three years, and declared that there was a gross dif-
ference of about a million. He complained that while
reductions were made amongst the working classes in
the dock-yards, there had been no alteration in the
civil establishments. He thought there was no neces-
sity for a Clerk of the Survey. With regard to the
water measurers, he wished to have some explanation
of the reason why the sub-measurers were so much
reduced in their rate of wages. During the war they
had earned 1.1.51. a day, and now they could only
obtain about £l.2x. 6d. He could see no reason for
this difference between the two classes of services.—
Ile had understood that a civil officer had retired
upon a superannuation of three-fourths of his salary.
Now the rate of allowance made to Shipwrights was
only one-third of their salary when they were reduced.
!•here was another circumstance which had come to
his ears, and which he was desirous of mentioning—
it was, that in the Estimates for the last seven years,
a Clerk in the Chatham Yard had been put down,'
who never during that period had attended there at
all. He was told that the individual was always em-
ployed in the Navy Office, and that a supernumerary
at a salary of £BO a year performed his duty at Chat-
ham. The Hon. Member alluded to some alterations
of vessels, and the use of the circular stern, making
inquiry as to the difference of expense. He thought
that the distinction which appeared to be rnade be-
tween those employed in the civil departments and
the artificers, was nut founded in justice to the latter.
Sir G. COCKBURN admitted that the Clerks of
Survey mizl►t be considerably reduced, and stated

that their reduction was in contemplation. A Board
had heed sent to Chatham, and a very little inspece
Lion convinced-them that many of the Supervising
.offieers might be dispensed with. With regard to
the introduction of the circular 'sterns, he considered
them to be highly advantageous to the service. The
principle had just been applied to a line of battle ship,
which was to be launched at WoOlwieh immediately.
And for the purpose of trying the plan effectually, it
was resolved to put the ship into com mission forthwith.
Sir BYAM MARTIN said, that the Clerk who
had been alluded to was a valuable servant, and that
he had been employed in the Navy Office because he
was found particularly useful there. The gallant
Member had never heard that there were any com-
plaints made by the artificers, as to their compara-
tive situation in respect to fficers in the civil de-
partments. As to the difference in the public ac-
counts, he was not able at the moment to explain
them ; but, as far as he was concerned, he begged to
say, that whether at sea or on shore, he never wished
any one to stand between him and the responsibility
of the station he held.
Sir J. YORKE was anxious to take his share of
whatever responsibility might attach to the introduc-
tion of circular sterns, as he had been partly instru-
mental in bringing them into use. The gallant Mem-
ber then enumerated the progressive improvements
that had been made in the construction of vessels,
and stated his opinion that the circular sterns would
be highly advantageous to the service.
Mr. BERNAL, in explanation, said that he had
made his remark upon the use of the circular sterns
rather in a spirit of inquiry than of condemnation ;
but he conceived that his most material objection
had not been removed. What he most complained
of was the contradictory nature of the Estimates and
the Public Accounts, and that had not been explained.
There were some circumstances that had come to his
hearing, which he would state, although he did not
vouch for their truth. He had been told that the
standing rules of the Dock-yard at Chatham were
broken in various ways. Several servants were kept,
to the amount of thirty or forty, which was in direct
contradiction to its regulations ; as was also the using
of chips, a practice said to be commonly resorted to.
Sir BYAM MARTIN was glad that the Honour.
able Member did not mean to assert the truth of
these reports, because he did, not think there was a
word of truth in them. However, he would assure
the Honourable Member that what had fallen from
him should occasion strict inquiry, and if the facts
turned out as they had been represented, the parties
should not escape punishment.
Mr. HUME corroborated the statement of his Ho-
nourable Friend, with regard to the contradictions
in the estimates and accounts, and went through the
same comparisons, to shew where 'the differences
existed. lie contended, that the salaries in the Dock-
yards ought to undergo revision, and be very consi-
derably reduced. He then sheaved that they were
higher than in 1792. These had been considered as
descrying of reduction by the Finance Committee,
who expressed in their Report, the hope that no re-
spect for existing establishments would prevent the
Board of Admiralty from revising every part of the
Dock-yards, with a view to all possible reduction.—
This proved that they thought the establishment then
too large. The superannuations were upon a scale
equally high with the salaries. He had heard at
least fifty Officers of the Army complain of the supe-
rior allowance made to clerks in these departments.
If a clerk, with a salary of £2OO a-year, served for
thirty years, he was allowed to retire upon the whole
of his salary. An Officer might have served for thirty
years, and retire upon considerably less than £2OO
a-year. There was an instance of a bricklayer re-
tiring upon £197 ; and such a comcarative dispro-
portion was extremely invidious and improper, and
ought not to exist.
Sir G. CLERK said, as all these offices were under
revision, he could not speak of them at present.—
With regard to the- Superannuations, they would
come under the measure of the Right Hon. the Chan-
! cellor of the Exchequer. Those which had hither to
been granted, were calculated upon a scale recom-
I mended by a Parliamentary Commission, and the
I persons who received them had held their offices upon
tt,e faith of having that rate of allowance. The whole
subject was under the consideration of the Board of
Admiralty, and they contemplated putting the de-
partment, upon a more economical, and, he hoped, a
not less efficient plan.
A few observations here took place between Sir F..
OMMANEY, Mr. Hunts, Sir B. MAnziN, Mr. BER-
NAL, and Mi. CROYER, after which the Resolution
was carried.

A Resolution was theri proposed for granting the
sum of 29,0051. for the service of the Woolwich
Dock-yard.
Mr. R. SMITH said, that he thought the Clerk of
the Rope-yard might be dispensed with. Such had
been the opinion of the Comptroller of the Navy, ac-
cording to his evidence given before the Finance Com-
mittee, that this office could be abolished.
Sir B. MARTIN said, that such was his opinion
still, and that the reduction of the office was under
the consideration of the Board of Revision.
Sir G. CLERK said, that the reduction of this
office was included in the plan now under the consi-
deration of the Board.

Mr. CROKER was of opinion, that until the whole
system was revised, no particular cases of reduction
could be fairly and advantageously effected.
Sir J. YORKE said, that the Board of Revision
had been so often revised, and its acts superseded
and altered, that he should be very glad to have from
the Secretary of the Navy some account of the inten-
tions of the Board, upon which they might rely.
Mr. CROKER only required that his Hon. Friend
would point out that which was subject to no change
of circumstance or time, and he would then give him
what lie desired. The first measures of tie Board
were founded upon high prices, and a time of war.
' It afterwards became necessary to alter their views,
for to have proceeded upon them would have been
to pursue a most extravagant course.
Mr. HUME said, the House was always met with
what was going to be done. If the Committee,would
support him, he had no doubt but that he should very
, much hasten the revisions which were going forward.
Mr. T. WILSON thought their was no necessity
for waiting until the revision of the whole department
was completed, when they saw a particular office,
such as the Clerk of the Rope-walk, which called for
reform—(hear).

Mr. BENNET thought the vote &hail be reduced.
Mrt R. SMITH thought it would really do the
Minister ckedlt to withdraw the amount of the salary
of the Clerk In question from the vote.
Mr. ASTELL said, that the Hon. Member who had
just spoken had anticipated him in the observation he
was about to make.
Mr.R.SMITH said he should move a reduction of the
amount of the salary. He should propose that the sum.
of 28,4651. be substituted for that of 29,00.51.
Mr. CROKER said, that Hon. Members seemed to
be under a partial mistake with regard to this office.
It never vas admitted that it was a perfectly useless
one, or that its expense could be wholly saved. The .
opinion of his gallant Friend, the Comptroller of the
Navy, was only his private opinion as to the necessity'
of the clerk of the rope-walk, and that only went so
far as to say that the duties of the office might be
transferred to others. While the whole establishment
was under revision it was impossible to say where
those duties could be transferred, and perhaps they.
might be given to some one who would afterwards be
reduced. He thought, therefore, the Hon. Member
would see that he %yak:only doing an injury by re-
ducing the office under such circumstances, and that
it could only tend to impede the progress of extended
and valuable plans of economy. The fact of the office
being unnecessary was no ground for reducing it
now, otherwise they might be called upon to reduce
the Clerks of Survey, who were to be dismissed ac-
cording to the plans now in view of the Board.
Mr. R. SMITH explained. No one would be less
disposed than he to interrupt the progress of economy.
Sir B. MARTIN entirely concurred in what had
fallen from his Hon. Friend (Mr. Croker). He had
said last year that the office in question could not be
reduced, until the revision of the establishment was
effected, without the greatest confusion, and the same
effect would be produced by it now. But even when
the Clerk of the Rope-walk was reduced for the other
yards, he must be retained at Woolwich; because the
rope-walk was not within the Dock-yard.
After an observation from Sir J. YORKE and Sir I.
COFFIN, the Resolution was put and agreed to.
The next Resolution was for 34,7611. for the Sala-
ries of the Officers of Chatham-yard.
Mr. R. SMITH said he believed the second Officer
employed at this yard could be dispensed with.
Sir B. MARTIN said, the Officer in question was
retained, because, if discharged, he would be entitled
to the Superannuation Pension.
Mr. HUME said, that in the year 1813, the total
charge for this Establishment was 33,2411. and now
it was 34,7611. although we were in the seventh year
of peace. He protested against such extravagance.
Before he sat down he wished to know what use a
Commissioner had for three Clerks? On the whole,
he thought a fourth of the expense might be taken off.
Mr. CROKER admitted, that unless the duties
were about to be increased, the sum for Commis-
sioners was too large ; but the fact was, that the
labour of several other departments was to be trans-
ferred to the Commissioners' department.
Sir B. MARTIN said, the increase of expense un-
der this head, since the year 1813, had been entirely
occasioned by the increase of duty.
After a few words from Mr. BERNAL and Sir G.
Omura's:, the Resolution was agreed to.
Two Resolutions were then put and agreed to with-
out any observation; one for 22,8901. for Sheerness
Yard, and the other for 48,0031. for Portsmouth Yard.
The next Resolution proposed was'for 42,741/. for
Plymouth Yard.
Mr. BENNET said, he trusted the expense of this
Establishment would be reduced in the course of the
present year.
Sir JOHN OSBORN spoke a few words across the
table, intimating that the expense would be reduced,
and the Resolution was then agreed to.
The next Resolution was for 95401. for the expense
of the Outports.
Mr. HUME said, he observed that a Naval Office:
had been withdrawn from Deal and sent to Harwich,
although there was, he believed, more duty to be
performed at the former than at the latter place.
Mr. CROKER said, the Officer had been trans-
ferred to Harwich, because that place was the pi in-
cipal Revenue port for the North Sea.
Mr. HUME said, he wished to know what was the '
duty performed by this Officer?
Sir G. COCKBURN said, that at Ilarwich he per-
formed the duties of a Naval Storekeeper.
Sir J. YORKE thought there was more in this
transaction than met the eye. His Right Honour-
able Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had a
political connection with Harwich.
Mr. HUME said, he understood this Officer was
one of. the Corporation of Harwich. He agreed with
the Right Hon. Baronet, that there was a strong sus-
picion of Parliamentary influence being connected
with this situation. Deal, it was to be remembered,.,
from whence the Officer had been taken, sent no'
Member to Parliament. He was determined to pro-
pose a reduction from this vote. There were two
Officers at Leith, with a salary of 5751. each. There
was a Chsplain at Pembroke, with 400/. a year; and
there was a Transport Establishment at Cowes, which
cost 3681. a year, independent of that at Portsmouth.
One of these establishments, he thought, was quite
sufficient. He should propose the reduction• of the
establishment at Harwich; the reduction -of one of
the Officers at Leith; the same with respect to the
establishment at Cowes; and, notwithstanding what
had been said respecting his anti-episcopalian notions,
he should propose a reduction of the Chaplain's sa-
lary. The total of the reductions was 1,568/. and he
(Loved an amendment reducing the vote by this sun.
Mr. C. 13ATHURST said, that as an insinuation
bad been thrown out respecting the political connec-
tion of his Right Hon. Friend the Chancellor of the
Exchequer with the town of Harwich, he thought it
but proper to state that the Officer who had been al-
luded te, had been appointed to the office in question
many years before his Right lion. Friend had any
connection with the town.
Sir B. M A It fl N said,that this Officer was not known
to the Admiralty as a voter, he was known only as a
valuable officer. Alluding to the Hon. Member's ob-
i jection to the salary paid the Chaplain at Pembroke,
he begged to observe that the number of persons at
, Pembroke was 500. At Cowes a Transport Agent
was indispensably necessary, to save the expense of
; demurrage, which would often be incurred without
, his presence. •
• Sir I. COFFIN thought the office of Storekeeper
was highly necessary.

4

Sir". I*
Sir J. E differed in opinion ro s Moir.
and gallant Friend ass to the necessity. •
Mr. BERNAL slid, that the salary of the Chiplaiti
at Sheerness was but SO(. a:)ear, and th ifeither at
Woolwich nor at Deptford was there•any Chaplain.
Mr. CRO K ER said, the men at Deptford and Wool-
wich attended the Parish Churches, and an allow;
ante was made in consequence to the Ministers of
these Churches.
Sir J. YORKE said, that it the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen divided-the Committee, he (Sir J. Yorke)
could agree with him only as to the reduction of the
establishment at HArwich.
. Sir' . HARVEY spoke shortly in tairOtir bf the
establishment At Harwich:
Strangers were then ordered to withdiaw, but Wilma said
he should not call for a division, and his Amendment was there-
fore negatived, and thu original Resolution was agreed to
The next ReSolutfon proposed Was fur 131,133, for the Ex-
penses of Foreign Yards.
Mr. HUME said, a reduction had been promised in this De-
partment, which flk had brought under the notice of the House
so early as 1819. A reduction had Indeed taken place, • but in
his opinion an impolitic one. He should he glad to hear how it
could be reconciled with sound policy to withdraw the Admiral
front India? He would rather consent to withdraw the Admiral
from Portsmouth or Plymouth. He really thought the East
India Company would pay the difference between the expense
of the Commodore and that of the Admiral.
After a few words from Sir ISAAC Corm'
Sir .1. YORKE said, he would certainlyltaire preferred the
withdrawing of an Admiral from Leith or from Cork: Economy
he thought, had here begun in the wrong place. He should be
glad to know the reason of the union of the Leeward and Jamaica
commands? He thought the a'treration was very injudicious.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, the heads of the Fast India House
had been consulted as to the withdrawing of the Admiral, and
had assented to it. The union of the Leeward and lamaica.cona-
mands had taken place under as idea that it would prove advam;
tageous, and there was every reason to believe that it would.
After a few words from Admiral Sontelos, the Resolution
was agreed to.
The next Resolution was for 40,7671. for the expense of the
Victualling Yards.
Mr. BERNAL noticed the keeping ti, a frigate and a depot
for naval stores.

Mr. B. MARTIN said a few words in defence of the prac=
tice, and the Resolution was agreed to. •
A Resolution was then proposed for 63,6741. for the Medical
Establishment.

Mr. HUME wished to know whether the allowanceS to per.
sons in this department were the same as they were during the war?
Mr. CROKER answered in the negative. There had been
a considerable saving under this head. As a■ example he would
mention the case of a Gentleman who formerly held the situation
of Governor. He now held that of Commissioner without any
increase of salary.—The Resolution was then agreed to.
The next Resolution was for 6,695 f. for the Royal Naval
College, and the School for Naval Architecture.
Mr. HUME said, that on the formation of thin establishment
there.was'no Governor; but now there was a Governor and a
Lieutenant-Governor. These had been added since Lord Mel-
ville's time, although there were but 40 boys to be taught.
Sir J. YORKE thought this was a fair poii.t at which a stand
might be made in favour of Naval Officers. There were very
few situations to which they could be appointed alter their long
services. These were two of them ; and he trusted the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen would not apply his tremendous pruning-
knife to this quarter.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, he merely wished that
Honourable Minibers could see the Establishment. It had im-
proved considerably ; there were 70 boys instead of 40 as men-
toned by the Hon. Member, and he trusted they would prove
an honour to their profession and a service to their country.
Sir I. COFFIN supported the Establishment.
Mr. HUME said, be still thought there was no necessity for
a Governor.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, that upon this occasion he most
differ from his lion. Friend the Member for Aberdeen. He
had seen the Establishment, and could safely say that in his
opinion it was well deserving the support of the House.
After a few words from Sir F. Osimaxxv in support of the
Establishment, the Resoluton w.:s agreed to.
The following Resolutions were then proposed and agreed to,
after a few words front Mr. Hum:, Sir B. Maims, and Sir I.
COFFIN, viz.-121,487/. for the wages of Officers and men of
ships In ordinary, 75,000 i. for victualling them, and 68,0001.
for harbour mooring, and rigging.
The Resolution next proposed was 500,000/. fur Repairs.
Sir J. YORK E said, be gave Ministers every credit for the
general curtailment they had effected in the public expense ; but
he thought this suns very etiormoes. Ile understood that a quan-
tity of coal-tar had been made use of fur some of the ships, wi:h
a view to prevent the dry rot, and he was informed that it had
lately been discontinued.
Sir B. MARTIN said, that the use of it had been suspended,
because a representation had been nude that it affected the he..ltis
of the crews. Ile had every reason to believe that, on itur-ity,
this representation would prove erroneous.
After a few words from Sit I. Coerm,
Mr. HUME regretted that so inany ships should have been
subjected to the experiment, until its efficacy had been as:tr-
tained. He agreed, however, that the use of coal ear hat: been
properly suspended.
Sir B. MARTIN explained, and the Resolution was then
agreed to. _ _

On the motion that £9G4,000 be granted for the Half-pay of
Naval ()facers,
Mr. HUME rose, not for the purpose of opposing the grant,
but of stating the abuses which had crept into the half-pay Sys-
tem. At the conclusion of the war, 1000 %.idshipmen were p:
moted to the rank of Lieutenants, in order to meet the claims of
the Navy, and upon an understanding that there was to be an
end during the peace of all farther promotions. Had th.:t. 11r-
rangement, however, been adhered to? Ile would read to thin
a Paper, which would thew that it had not :

11816.

0817

11319

1820

1S:111'

Midshipmen to be Lieu-
tenants
Lieutenants to be Com-
manders -
Commanders to be Post-
Captains -
Post-Captains to be Rear-
Admirals -
Rear-Admirals to be
Vice-Admirals -
Vice-Admirals to be Ad-
mirals - -

1117

Total.

423

173

Total number promoted
in each year -

1142

1107.

797

The Hon. Member then proceeded to argue mat the ron p to-
tions made in the Navy on the late Corottation were not made
upon the principles observed at former Coronations. lie should
be prepared to chew at a proper time, that many names were Se.
lected for promotion which were low in the various lists to
which they belonged. Besides, the promotions upon such a
pageant were totally unnecessary. Indeed. it was absurd to be
talking of the distress of the country, and at the same time to be
making promotions in the manner in which they recently had
been made. lie then contrasted the number of Officers on half-
pay at the close of the war and at present ; and stated that the
number had been increased for the sake of patrol age.
Sir G. COCK BURN defended the principle t,u which the re-
cent promotions had been made. The Admiralty had selected
the Officers without any regard sa their family or Parliamentary
influence ; they bad only looked to their leileth f service at sea.
Mr. ELLLCK controverted the doctrines of Mr. Hume on
this point, and asked whether the country was reduced to such a
state of distress that a young man, on his return home after
fifteen years of arduous service abroad, was to be told ft had no
longer the power to remunerate him? He must say that he had
heard with great pain several of his lion. Friend's motiocs that
livening. To the reductions which his lion. Ft iced had pro-
posed in the civil expenditure, he did not object ; but he could
not support the retrettehmentsavhich his lion. Friend wished to
make in thistlepartnieut of the petal's: service. Uhl Navy was,
in his opinion, reduced much lower than sound po:icy wai ranted.
Sir I. COFFIN, in illustration of what had f Wen from the
Hon. Member for Coventry, stated,. that he had astepliew who
had now been nine years a Midshipman.
Mr. 11. O. 'JENNE:I' contended, that his lion. friend, the