Star.
London, England, 1822-03-26 00:00:00

BARBADOES TOUR /ER CENTS.
Mr. CREEVEY said, that as the Ordnance Esti-
mates were to be submitted to the •proposed Com-
mittee, he was anxious once more to put on the Jour-
nals his opinion respecting an item in those Estimates
of 16001. for Repairs of the Fortifications of Barba-
does. He objected to this sum in the Estimates, be-
cause there was a particular fund created to meet this
expense by an Act of the Legislature of the Island,
ra4sed in the year 1663. That Act provided a duty
of four and a half per cent. on certain commodities,
for, among other purposes, providing for the expense
of fortifying the Island. The reason that the money
was now claimed from the people of this country
was, that this Barbadoes Fund was divided among
Gentlemen, Ladies, and children of the higher classes
of England. The proper application of the Fund had
been stated to that House in the reign of Queen Anne,
by a Petition from certain Barbadoes merchants,
praying that the Fund might be restored to its original
•object, which was done accordingly. The original
purpose of the Fund had, therefore, been recognised
by the House. The present practice of distributing
the money ought to be altered ; especially as the dis-
tress of the country was so great as to have induced
the Crown to make a considerable sacrifice for the
public good. He was determined on a future occa-
sion (as he had done before) to bring the subject
under the notice of the House in a specific shape ; and
for the present he should content himself by moving
as an Amendment to the motion that the Speaker
should leave the Chair, That the Committee be in-
structed to inquire whether the duties raised by the
Act of Legislature of Barbadoes Island, for defraying
t:ie expense of fortifying the same, were adequate for
that purpose r
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he should
not enter into the argument of the question, as the
Hon. Member had stated his intention to bring the
subject before the House in the shape of a distinct
motion. The Hoa. Member might, if he pleased,
oppose the particular vote in the Committee. He
(the Marquis of Londonderry). however, presumed
that the object of the Hon. Member was merely to
recor,i his own opinion.
Mr. HOME said, the-object of his Hon. Friend
was, to call on the Committee to consider whether
the money bad or had not been diverted from its ori-
ginal purpose. In fairness he thought that the subject
should be vat to the Commitee.

Mr. GOUL BURN denied that in fairness the sub-
ject s'hould be sent to the Committee. It was nut a
business for the inquiry of a Committee of Supply ;
and, at all events, the Hon. Member could move to
leave out the particular sum.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
House divided, when there appeared—
For the or'Onul question
For the Amendment -
Majority

Q 4
- 14
- -.44

ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.
On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, the
House was found in a Committee.
Mr. It. WARD rose to move the Ordnance Esti-
mates. The total of the expense of this branch of the
public service would be 1,200,0001. being 72,0001.
less than that of the last year on the ordinary part of
the Estimates, and 21,6001. more than that of the ex-
traordinary, on a comparison with the expense of the
last year. Under that part of the Estimates called
" the Unprovided," it would be seen that the sum
was 30,0001. less than last year. Under the charge
for " Superannuation," there was an excess on the mi-
litary side of 60481. and oil the civil of 932 V. It
would, however, be obvious, that this increase was
caused by the decrease in the body of the Estimates.
The service for Ireland required a sum less by 15,0001.
than that required in the last year. The whole sum t
required would be apparently 105.0001. more than
last year, but in point of real expense there was a re-
duction of 83,0001. A saving had been effected in
the civil and military branches of the service, which
he would describe very shortly, beginning with the
civil. The principal offices belo,“:;ing to the Ord-
nance Department were those of Pall-mall and the
Tower ; in these there had been a real saving of
62571. Under the head of Contingencies, there had
been a saving of 1900/. and oil the expense of all the
foreign stations, one of 73811. In the item of Re-
pairs, the saving was 28001.—50, that with a few
minor reductions, the whole saving in the civil branch
amounted to 24,3431. This had been effected by a
reduction in the number of offices; in the number of
persons who filled others, and in the lessening of their
salaries. Last year there were nearly 500 persons in
alid about the Ordnance, and upwards of 100 had
been reduced ; so that he hoped the Committee would
not think the Heads of the Department had been idle
since the last Session. The number of persons now
employed was 385. If this number were compared
with that of the favourite year 1792, it would be found
that the numerical strength of the Department had
been decreased. In the year 1792, the number of
persons was 359/. without noticing Ireland ; and it
might here be observed, that several colonies had
been since added to this country by conquest.,--
If the number employed at that time for Ireland,
were added the number would be 414, being 29 more
tl-.an the number at present attached to the Depart-
mut. The Committee must be aware that much
I mmess had been necessary to accomplish the re-
duction; for it could not but be an irksome, a painful
task, to reduce persons from a state of comfort to one
of comparative nothingness, and especially when that
were done without any fault of their own. Ile begged
here to observe, that he had stated last year that these
reductions were in contemplation. It was then said,
why had they not been made before ? but the answer
was, that the doing so required much consideration and
discussion. The Master-General of the Ordnance had
long contemplated a total change in the constitution,
of the department, and was resolved to try the ex-
periment of introducing in the various offices checks
upon each other. This had been accomplished, and
lead considerably multiplied the business. Returns
were now made to the principal office once a month,
in, tead of once a quarter; ai.d this tell:a included a
daily journal of the business done, and of the minutest
receipt and expenditure. More business was now
transacted than ever in the various offices, and }set
the number of persons in them bad been reduced. In
almost every office there had been reduction,, and
others were contemplated. The long services of some
o. the officers rendered it impossible to reduce them
with any justice; and it was therefore proposed
that they should be allowed to remain until death

'or retirement ; it being understood that the vacancies
thus caused weronot to be filled trp. It was also in-
tended
to throw on the Ordnance the labour per-
formed by the two great Departments of Barrack-
Master
General, and Storekeeper-General--(!!ear).
This arrangement was undoubtedly in its infancy,l
but it would be certainly brought to maturity for
the public benefit, and he shoitid be happy if the;
services required for those departments could be per-
formed at the Ordnance as ably as they were under
their present management. He now came to notice
the savings in the military branch of the department;
and he congratulated the Committee on the change •
of construction which had taken place; a change, to
accomplish which the Earl of Mulgrave had gone a
considerable way, and which had been carried, into
perfection by the Duke of Wellington, the present
Master-General. The Corps of Drivers had been re-
duced four men and five horses in each company,
and the Drivers were not now under two commands,
as they had been before. All the Officers of the
corps had in some degree undergone a !eduction;
and the total number reduced was 400. The recruits
were for the future to be engaged as gunners as well
as drivers--an arrangement which would be found
highly beneficial, as it would render a distinct corps
unnecessary. The sum saved by this part of the re-
duction was 17,0001. but, on the other side of the
account, there was a small addition for pensions, and
for allowances to Engineers, Sappers, and Miners ;
so that the clear saving would be 16,0001. An im-
provement had been effected in that part of the ser-
vice relating to Reliefs. Formerly many of the
mi-
litary engaged in this branch of the servile were
detained many years in foreign climates ; a circum-
stance which was justly considered a hardship. But
by an addition of 92 men to the effective force, it
had been so arranged that two hundred should al-
ways be in readiness to proceed abroad and relieve.
A decrease had taken place in the number and pay of
labourers, as would be seen on a comparison of the
present with the last year's Estimates; and a saving
had been effected in many cases by a transfer of la-
bour from one Establishment to another. This might
be instanced in the transfer of labour from the ordi-
nary to the extraordinary branch of the Department,
and the transfer of barrack furniture. In the West
India Nandi, in the Office of Clerk of Stores, there
had been a saving on the item of half-pay. The
whole of the diminution of the expense on the
military branch was £74,000, and there were some
articles of excess, in which he trusted the expense
would. be refunded, particularly with respect to the
expense charged to the colony of Demerara for forti-
fications. This, with some others, would make an
apparent excess of £51,000; but there were reduc-
tions interspersed through the Estimates, which
brought this sum down to £21,000. There was a
slight excess caused by increase of pay to overseers
and clerks of work:,, and allowances to sappers and
miners, clerks, &c. =out:6lg to £14,000, forming
a part of the sum he had mentioned as an excess.
Should he not have made himself clearly understood
oa this subject, he should feel pleasure in giving every
information within his power to the Committee.—
The last branch of the expenditure was that called
eg the unprovided," in which the expense had been
kept down to the lowest possible sum. This year it
was but 9,841/. while in former years it had been as
much as 40,0001. and 60,000/. From the charges
relating to Ireland, the deductions, compared with
last year's expense, amounted to 15,000!. and had
been brought under the inspection and judicious ma-
nagement of the Surveyor-General. The Estimates
stated the name, situation, and salary of every Offi-
, cer ; and as he thought it better in the first instance
to give the Committee merely an outline of the Esti-
mates, he should reserve the minuter subjects for ex-
planation as it might be called for by the Committee.
He intended to move the votes in the same order in
which they were moved last year, beginning with
the establishments of the Tower and Pall-Mall, and
going through the different stations. The Hon. Mem-
ber concluded by moving a Resolution for 35,8421.
for the salaries of the Master-General, and other Offi-
cers of the Ordnance at the establishments at the
Tower and Pall-Mall.
Mr. HLTNIE expressed his satisfaction that a change
had been effected in the De2artment, and at the state-
ment which had been made by the Hen. Member,
which he considered to he clearer than usual. He
thought it, however, difficult to compare the expense
of one Department with the other. He approved of
the transfer of labour, but regretted that so much of
the reduction was in contemplation only. He thought'
the expense of the Barrack Board was unreasonably I
great. 'His object was to shew, if possible, the com-
parative charges, and for this purpose he would take
the year 1817 as a medium year of expense. He ,
thought great credit was due to the Department for
the reduction of expense under the c. unprovided"'
branch of expense. The reduction had certainly been
considerable—(Hear, hear).—On the whole, however,
he could not see that there was much reason for con-
gratulation. In the year 1792, the whole expense of
this Department was 400,0001. in 1817, 1,233,0001.
and now, in 1822, 1,231,000/. He was free to admit,
that when the Army increased, the Ordnance must
have increased also. The whole expense was nomi•
nally one thousand pounds more than that of last
year, though certainly the unprovided head of ea-
Ipenditure had been reduced from 50,000/. to 9000/.
—lt was for the Committee to consider whether this
I expense was not too great ; it being admittedly three
'times more than that of the year 1792. In the year
1796, the Secretary to the Board had only six clerks;
in the last year he had thirty, and now he had twenty-
three. The highest salary of any clerk in the Office
of the Secretary in that year was 2761. now it was
11771. In 1796 the whole expense of that Office was
1832/. and now it was 80001. In the Office of Sur-
veyor-General there had been a considerable increase
lof expense. In 1796 there were fourteen clerks, and
the expense was 21001. in the last year thirty-six
clerks, at an expense of 10,6211. and this year twenty-
nine clerks, at an expense of 90001. In the Office of
Clerk of the Ordnance there had been an increase in
the number of clerks of from fifteen to twenty-three,
and the expense tripled. In the Office of the Trea-
surer, there were in 1796, ten clerks, at an expense of
12001. last year there were twelve clerks, at an ex-
pense of 3000/. and this year eight clerks, at an ex-
pense of 2096/. This he found was the only Office
which had been reduced in number since the year
1796. Having given these specimens of the increase,
lie should teally be happy to sec the reduction sped-

6colly panted out. If the "sperm had been really •
reduced, there must he (Mr. Hume) thought, have
been a most unequal distribution of the service.—
The principal increase in the expense from the year
179 d had beat in the establishments at the Tower and
Pall-mall- He certainly expected that some atten•
tion would have been paid to the Report of the Com-
missioners of Military Inquiry, which stated that it
would be desirable to join the Pall-mall and Tower
establishments. The Commissioners also thought
that Woolwich was a better place than the Tower
for receivin_g stores. They considered likewise that
the office of Lieutenant-General was necessary only
in war, upon a presumption that the Master-General
might be called upon foreign service. They recom-
mended that only two of the Officers of the Depart-
ment should hold seats in that House; but now there
were four who always supported the propositions of
Government. Had the recommendation of the Com-
missioners been attended to the reductions would

have been considerably greater in amount; but in the
present reductions he thought the benefit of • the
higher Officers had been consulted rather than that
of the Public. in the year 1796, the expense of the
Establishments at Pall-mall and the Tower was but

18,0001. last vear it was 51,0001. This he thought
was considerably too large. If the expense were twice
as much as in 1796, it would be amply sufficient--
He had expected that the Master-General of the Ord-.

nance Department would have lowered his own salary:
He had reduced the junior salaries, and he was sure
they would have better borne that reduction had he
ecommenced with himself. In 1796 the Master• Gen-

ral received 1,560/. a-year, and now he drew 3,1751.
a sum which he thought would very well hear a re-
duction of 1,0001. Looking at the other Officers of
the Department, he was of opinion that 1,0001. would
be quite sufficient for the Treasurer. The whole of
the higher Officers of the Department ought to stiffer
a diminution of salary. In 1796 the whole depart-
ment cost but 18,7061. whereas, in the present year,
it was estimated at 56,0001. So inordinate a differ-
ence demanded at least a reduction of 10,0001. to be
supported by diminution In the higher salaries. How-
ever, he should not make a motion to that effect until
he heard upon what ground it was that these salaries
were allowed to remain untouched,whilst those under
them were not spared. He thought they ought at
least to have the encouragement to support their re-
ductions, of seeing that those above them were not
exempted from similar diminutions. If the Board
would not, of their own accord, follow the recom-
mendations of the Commissioners of Military Inquiry,
the Committee must force them to do it.
Mr. WARD expressed his satisfaction at the tone
in which the Hon. Gentleman had discussed the sub-
ject submitted to the consideration of the House—
(Hear, hear). He should be extremely happy to give
the Hon. Gentleman every information in his power
upon the points where there appeared to be any dis-
sension between them, and for that purpose he would
follow him as closely as possible in the observations
he had made. With regard to the Barrack Board,
he admitted that many and extensive reductions would
be made, but he could not say that 18,0001. would
be sufficient to support it henceforward. The Hon.
Gentleman did not seem to understand the way in
which he made his calculations, to prove the reduc-
tion of establishments on comparing the present year
with 1792. Ile first took the numbers of la,,t }ear,
and after subtracting from them the reduction made i
in this year, he compared the result with 1792, and
a difference of twenty-nine, allowing for Ireland, ap-
peared
in favour of this year. The lion. Gentleman's
disapproval of the Lieutenant-General attached to the ;
office he could not at all agree with. In the Board;
of Admiralty the naval duties were entrusted to a
Naval Officer, and at the Board of Ordnance the mi-
litary business was under the superintendance of a
General Officer. It was true that the numbers in Pall-
mall and the Tower were greater. This was in conse-
quence of an immense addition of businessthrown upon
these departments from reductions in the out-stations.
The Hon. Gentleman had made a little mistake in
thinking that the business of the Ordnance Office
could go on with a reduction of 10,0001. Ile assured
the Hon. Gentleman, that even with his physical
powers of labour, he could not rival the application
to business of some of the Officers. He particularly
distinguished the Secretary to the Board, whose un-
remitting attention to his duty had rarely been
equalled, and he was sure could never be surpassed.
He did not even quit his office at the time of meals.
The most scrupulous attention was also exacted from
every individual in the office. The clerks in each
department were obliged to attend at the appointed
hours; and, as a check over them, the Heads of De-
partments were called upon to report the hours of
their coming and going away. The Public had, in-
deed, not only the whole of their time that they had
a right to expect, but even more, as that leisure to
which every Gentleman in a public office was enti-
tled had been trenched upon lately. In his own office,
and in the office of the Surveyor-General and others,
he knew that the clerks were obliged to attend three
hours and upwards beyond their usual period, in
order to bring up arrears of business. Thus they
were to be found at work there from seven in the
morning till four, and till eight and nine at night. It
was impossible, therefore, that more could be re-
quired from them, and if they took 10,000/. from
the Establishment, as suggested by the Hon. Member
for Montrose, the business could :not be done. By
the new mode of conducting the office, according
to the system of the Master-General, all that human
nature could do would be done; but he was not sure
that it could he carried into complete execution.—
At all events, he protested against Hon. Members
supposing, that by a scrape of the pen, or, as if it
were by magic, the whole system of management of
an Office of this description could be changed, and
an inordinate reduction of expenditure effected. It
was not true that the junior Officers were divested of
that solace under-their loss of salary to be derived
from the consideration that their superiors shared in
their deprivations. The fact was, that the encotirage-
merit was much greater than he Hon. Gentleman
could suppose ; for whilst five per cent. was taken
from the minor salaries, to be returned in the form
of superannuation allowance, ten per cent. was taken
off those which were to receive•no such return. For
his own part, his salary was 100/. less than what was
attached to his office in 1792; but yet he would not
escape the Bill of his Hight Hon. Friend (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer), and he could wish that the
Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) would inter-


fire in that quarter on the ground of justice. The
Treasurer, of whom the Honourable Gentleman had
spoken, would lose Ist,. out of his salary, and he
hr
oep dr
cameou
tceesdt anyacigoawli onnws t et
hrw.e
hr
ea (,:t1 nacHne
do
nmsopouorrekaebl eea t
Gmr
act inns
should be sorry to see so exemplary a public ae-
reductions, being regarded
ec•
doticretmme rPe
abouttnahnwist
as gospel,.
What Lord Moira, Lord Mulgrave, Lord Chatham,
and especially the Duke of Wellington, whom nothing
escaped any more than if he were in the face of the
enemy all day long, said, must be taken as coming
from more competent judges of the matter, than Gen-
' tlemen whose opinions were derived from a cursory
examination of a few days duration. There should
be no jealousy about the size of the Board, as con-
nected with the question of diminishing the influence
of the Crown in that House. The Board was com-
posed of the heads of the different departments of the
Office, who received no salary for sitting at the Board
beyond the amount of their allowances for their patent
offices. And it was plain that the Board must be
more efficient from being so composed. With regard
•to the influence of the Crown, although five of the
Board were permitted to have seats in that House,
only three of them were there. He hoped the Hon.
Gentleman, therefore, would see that reduction had
been carried as far as it consistently could—(Hear).
Mr. ELLICE thought that the two offices at the
Tower and Pall-mall might be consolidated ; and
when the Right Honourable Gentleman assured them
that they could not usefully do so, he wished to know
how the-House were to judge between his interested
assertion and the declaration•of the Commissioners
for Military Inquiry? There was one ground upon
which be would support all the propositions for re-
duction of his Honourable Friend behind him. This
was, when it were not satisfactorily proved to •him
that the business of the different Departments had in-
creased in proportion to the increase of cost since
1796. That had irt been proved in the present case,
and he. must say, that however painful it might be,
he must support the proposition for a diminution of
the salary of the Master-General of the a:dna:ice, in
proportion to the increase in value of the currency
since 1811. He thought 10,000/. might very well be
spared, and if his Honourable Friend can ied it to a
division, he should have his vote.
Colonel DAVIES observed, that so far from there
being any decrease in the Eqimates for the present
year, there was actually an increase of about 32,000/.
over the Estimates of 1819.
Mr. WARD observed, with reference to what bad
fallen from the Hon. Member for Coventry, that there
was at present sixteen times as much half-pay to
manage than there was in 1792, besides what increase
of business had occurred from the union with Ireland.
Mr. HCME said, that independently of other
motives, he was most anxious to cake the sense of the
Committee on the question of allowing the salary of
the Master-General to remain the same as it was in
time of war. He really thought that an eaam2le in
the higher appointments ought to be set, and he
should therefore move that a reduction of 10,0001. be
made upon the vote under consideration.
Sir R. FERGUSSON wished to know whether be
was right in supposing that a reduction had been
made in the Medical Department ? He understood
that so many as twelve most efficient Medical Offi-
cers had been reduced to a very inconsiderahie ailow-
ance, whilst by a new appointment to the squation of
Surgeon-Genet...ly the whole saving thus acquired was
swallowed up.
Mr. WARD admitted that, in consequence of the
reprosentations.of that House, of the size of the Medi-
cal De:)arttnent, reductions had been made. But
they had not been reduced on the grounds stated, viz.
to keep the Surgeon-Genera: in his situation. The
Master-General wished to have only one Medical
Officer at Woolwich, but it was found in:po.>sible to
induce any one to take the two situations of Director
and Surgeon-General. The Surgeon. General, Sir J.
IWebb,was invalided, and unable, ft cam asthma, to do
hOspital duty in winter, and the Surgeon-General
from Dublin was put in his place.
Mr. HUME said, that it was the reduction of the
Board that he had recommended last year. Sir.l.Webb
had been excused hospital duty for a long while, and
was, in fact, forced to retire against his will, to make
way for the Gentleman from Dublin. Tl.. late Sur-
geon7General had retired upon full-pay, at 3/. 7s. per
day ; the twelve individuals, reduced to 2s. per day,
after long service, created a saving of 31. 2s. 3d. per
day ; so that there was actually an increased charge
of ss. per diem by the transaction.—The House
then divided; when the numbers were

For the Amendment 30
Againstit OS

Majority in favour of the M0ti0n.....-65
The following Estimates were then voted :
tor defraying the Salaries of the Officers of the Ordnance of the
Borne Station, including Guernsey, Jersey,&c. Li 2,885 0 0
kir the Salaries of Officers of the Ordnance on
Foreign Stations

13,313 0 0

:or the Increase of Salaries of the Officers of
the Ordnance . - 23,495 0 0
For defraying the expense of Contingencies,
Repairing the Storehouses, &c, - - 17,200 0 0
For the Pay of 57 Master Gunners, &c. - 4,258 0 0
For the Corps of Royal Engineers - - 40,795 0 0
For the Corps of Sappers and Miners, and the
construction of Field-works - - 26,287 19 7
Fur the Roy.ll Regiment of Artillery - 24,868 9 2
Fur the Royal Horse Artillery, also the Royal
Ilorse Troop - - -
.. .
- 36,954 16 2
- . . ~...

_
For defraying the expenses of the Field Train - 2,62.4 9 2
For defraying the expenses of the 'Medical De-
partment of the Ordnance - - 6,860 16 0
For the expeine of the Civil Officers, Cadets,
&c. at Woolwich - - 8,059 10 2
For Fees paid to she Exchequer - - 1,6.0 0 0
To defray the expense of Services performed
by Officers of the Ordnance, nut provitkd for
in 1821 - -
For charges of the Ordnance, Widows' Pen-
sions, &c. &c.

- 3,731 4 7

7 30,800 0 0

To defray the Charge of the Ordnance in Ireland 11,365 17 4
Mr. WARD then intimated that he bilonl,l not proceed far.
ther on that occasion, and alloyed that the Chair .nap report

progress.
Mr. BEOGDEN accordingly reported progress, and ob-
tained leave to sit again on Wednesday.
The House having resumed, the Report was ordered to be re-
ceived on Thursday.
Mr. W A I.I.ACE brought in a Bill to repeal divers ancient
statutes relating to the importation of good. and tnerchandize
from foreign countries. The 1;i:I was read the first tittte, anti
ordered to be read a second time on :hr tgtit of April. The
lion. Member also brought in a Kill for the encoliragen,Nt of
navigation and comnwrce, by rerulating importa:i.m.—Reaa the
first time, and the second reading fixed for April 19. Die
lion. Member also brut ht in a 1101 to repeal certain Acts re-
lating to the importation of goods and merritandize.—Read the
first, and orders cl to be read the second time on the .21ath of Apr.l.
The CIiaINCELLUR, of the li,:it-'IIEQ,LIEIt brought LI