Star.
London, England, 1830-06-18 00:00:00

TAXATION IN IRELAND.

Earl GREY presented a petition from Kilkenny, against the in.
crease of taxation in Ireland.
Earl DARNLEY presented a similar petition from Waterford.
The Marquis LANSDOWNE said he had several petitions to
present on the subject of taxation in Ireland. The noble marquis
considered the proposed duty on stamps and spirits the first attempt
ever made to equalize duties, for the purpose of making good a
decrease in the revenue. He thought it would have a pernicious
effect on the press of Ireland. The noble Marquis presented pet!.
Lions against taxation from Clonikilty, in the County of Cork, and
other parts, against the proposed increase of stamp duties. Also a
petition from the debtors in the four Courts of Dublin, for revision
of the insolvent debtors bill.

FEES ON DEMISE OF THE CROWN ABOLITION HILL.
The house went limo Committee on the Fees Abolition Bill,
and several amendments made by the LOAD CHANCELLOR and
Lord TENTERDEN were peed to. Report to be received to.
morrow.

Lord WHARNCLIFFE rose in a committee upon the Ceti.'
sus Bill, and expressed his intention to propose an amend.
ment for the purpose of bringing under the consideration of
the House of Commons a very important question. He al.
bided to the mode in which the Houle of Commons supported
their exclusive right to originate money-bLUs. The House of Com-
mons claimed the right of having the command of the purse of the
country, and that no demand be made on the people without their
consent. They did not allow the House of Lords to interfere at all.
To the full extent of that privilege, which controuled the expendi.
tune of public money, he was ready to go, but the Commons had
carried their privilege to an extent which appeared to the noble lord
quite absurd. if they originated a bill in that house with a penal
clause, the Commons would not proceed upon it, and if their lord.
ships altered a penalty in a bill from the Commons, the latter
would not assent to such alteration. Since he had been a member
of that house, he had experienced the inconvenience arising
from the present practice of the House of Commons. Three
years ago he introduced a bill for re plating qualifications,
and preserving game. On that occasion he took especial
care not to insert any penalty, but the principle of the bill
was, that certain persons should be qualified who were
at that time unqualified. The bill passed to the House of
Commons, and would have been a law of the land; but it was
said that, although there was no penalty in the bill, certain persons
were exempted from penalties, and on that account it interfered with
the privilege claimed by the Commons, and could not pass. This
was the absurdity of which be complained. The noble lord had
consulted several members of the House of Commons, who had
recommended him to raise the question by making an amendment
in a penal clause. The subject would then be brought under con.l
alderation, and the commons might place their privilege upon a
more rational foundation. The noble lord, acting upon that view
of the question, moved to amend the bill by raising a penalty of
forty shillings or not returning certain accounts relating to the popu-
lation, to fifty shillings.
The Earl of CARNARVON expressed an opinion that the pre*.
sure of business and the advanced state of the session, would not
allow the discussion of the question.
F.arl DARNLEY thought the subject might be brought before
the Commons in a specific form.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said he was not aware that the
Commons would be so ready as the noble lord supposed to give up
the point, and he begged his noble friend not to press his motion.
Lord ‘VHARNCLIFFE said, the course he had taken was the
suggestion of important authority in the House of Commons.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said a measure on the sub-
ject might originate in the Commons.
Lord ELLENBORI )UGH said. if the noble lord's amendment
met with the consent of their lordships, that consert should be im.
plied sub silentio. He could not help thinking the discussion pro-
posed by the noble lord would disappoint him. The fact was that
the house had the right to alter any bill, and it was impossible to
call their right in question.
After a converoution, in which Earl BsTimusr, the Duke of
Itscastoitn, and Viscount blzi.vst.xe took part,
cf LANSI)OIVNE approved of conveying the
suggestions of the noble lord (WhirrclitTe) to the members of the
nth*, Hnoite. of rftrlinn.ent, without entering then: un the journals
of the House of Peers.

Lord SKEL3IEHSDALE took the same view of the subject.
On the queloier. that instead of 4;ls. NI:LA part of the bill
being put, the house divided, when there appeateti
For the orii-,inal clause 'l7
For the anivr.dnant

Majority
Mr. Tomlin, from the Treasury, presented an account of the
beer dunes for the past year.
Several bilk were forwarded a stage, and at Seven o'Clock their
Lordships atlji,orii,.d.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jvwt 17.
The Deputy Usher of the Black Roil summoned the house to
attend in the House of Peels, to hear the royal assent given to
sundry bills. [See Lords.]
Sir R. INGLIS presented a petition, complaining that Pro-
testants were compelled to do violence to their consciences by
attending the superstitious ceremonies of the Cathtilic religion at
Malta.

Sir G. MURRAY observed, that considering the differences in
the religions of the British army, it could not be wondered at that
they were occasionally obliged to assist at the ceremonies of each
other.
__

Mr. TRANT said, he knew that many officers in the British
army loudly complained of being compelled to assist at the ceremo-
nies of the Roman Catholic religion.
Sir R. WILSON observed, that persons with such very tender
otitedama ought not to enter the army ; that negligent compliance
with what was complimentary to others, was no violation to the
conscience; and that such ellaussicas were very injurious.
Sir B. VYVYAN was of the like opinion, and observed that there
was nothipg compulsory about the
Sir G. M URRAY said, that there nothing compulsory about
the observances adduced by Protestants on such owasicem
Mr. TRANT eadate4 to show that they wee compulsory, sad
I asked whether the right boa. gat. had sot swore at the table that

the Roman Catholic religion was " idolatrous?" How would the,
like to be compelled to honour Roman Catholic rites ?—(IiL .z.)
Mr. HUM E wished for freedom of religious worship—hut t'ic,r
officers who did not like the practice could quit the scretce. 'I bete
was the remedy for the wrong.
Sir GEORdE ROSE said, that there were many inatanc.2,
compulsion.
Petition ordered to be printed.
LOCAL JURISDICTION.

Mr. BROUGHAM brought in a Bill for the establishment of
local jurisdiction. He observed that, by way of experimeto,
would be limited to three counties--Kent, Durham, and Cumbet-
land ' • but it was so framed, that an additional clause would emend
it to all the counties of England and Wales. Its object sr:oc to
bring home justice to the doors of all suitors. There would be
branches of jurisdiction—three compulsory, and three volur.tary
the (comer could take cognizance of debt to the amount of 1001. and
of actions of "tort" to the extent of 501. The bill also nu.de a
proviso on the subject of pleading. It also n'a.!c provision tha,
with the consent of both parties, a jury might be disp:nscd ;tb,
but reserving the right of the judge to refer such Case to a y it'
he thought that tours: were useful. The power cf appeal to the
assize judge was also reserved. That was the character a the 1;141
compulsory branch of local jurisdiction ; the second regarded the
recovery of small debts under 51. improving, he considered, the
present system of Courts of Request. The third regarded questions
connected with legacies. As to the voluntary jurisdiction propo.e
to be given to the local judge, it regarded arbitration and " co•net •
liation." The last provided that a party conceiving that lie Lad .1
claim against another party, might cite such party before the local
judge, and there show whether there were any ground for chotge,
and if so conciliate the claim, without resorting to further legal pro.
czedings. He wished to have it read a second time, and commit teJ
as soon as possible, that the blanks might be filled up, and the bill
fully understood.

Sir E. KNATCHBULL would not opposie the bill, but begccd
that it might not home he inferred that he pledged himself to sup.
pot ttlic bill.

3lr. BMA:11131 said, he desired no one to pledge himself LJ
support the bill. He only whiled to present the bill in a cottiple•
share, and to have it fully understood.
lite SOLICITOR GENERAL trusted that it was not intem!..l
to tiurry forward this bill.
Mr. BROUGHAM replied, certainly not. He only wished Si,
bill to be in a complete shape. He was not quite sure that i •
could hope to pass it before the vacation, if ever they sac •
long vacation—(Hear, and a laugh.
Bill read a first time and crier to be read a second time to.
loni
morrow, and to be printed.
Lord TULLA MORE moved for various accounts respecting ti,
coal and other merchandise, &c. on the Royal and River liarrox
f' a ••• I i1..1.........,1

PVIILIC
Sir R. PEEL remind:d the house that half.past five o'clock halt
arrived, and he could not but notice that there were still petitions to
present and motions to make : he therefore proposed that to.day pub
lie business be commenced at six o'clock.
filr. BRIGHT protested against this arrangement—it ought t,)
be extended to half.past six—(Hear, hear and Oh ! oh !)—and
even dun, if he were entrusted with petitions affecting the West
India or other interests, he should claim his right to present thesis
when the Ministers were in attendance, and when they were likely
to hare that attention which might be useful. (Hear.)
Sir H. PEEL said. no resolution had been moved on the sub.
jest; it was only an understanding.
The conversation here dropped.
Mr. H1.131E presented a petition from Manchester regarding the
truck system.
Mr. LYTTLETON lamented that he had not been able to urge
forward his bilL

Rir R. PEEL said the fault was not with the Government.
they had but two order days in the week.' and those had been
considerably encroached upon; there never was a session when
the estimates were so much in arrest. Unless gentlemen who
had :maces gave wcy he did not see how many bills could be
brought forward.
Mr. BARING said the question was most important that was
involved in this bill.

Petitions fro n spinneys of Manchester in favour of the Truck
Bill, ordered to be printed.

ST. LUNI.II LIVIA CUUICH.
Mr. HUME presented a petition from St. Luke's, signed by
3.200 householders, in 48 hours, against the additional church pro-
jected for them. This was a secon•l' petition on the subject. He
hoped that the petitions might be referred to a committee above
stairs, as all in the parish were against the second church project,
and as it proved that some interested individual must have imposed
on the church commissioners.

Petition ordered to lie on the table.
Lord IVI ILTON presented a petition from Doncaster, against the
Northern Roads Bill.

Sir M. W. RIDLEY presented a petition from Newcastle.
upon-Tyne, respecting the stamps on patent medicines. The pe-
titioners were against any alteration.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD presented petitions from Mr.
Williams for a revision of the laws ; from Sir H. Lees against the
assimilation of taxes, &c. lie nieved that they be printed.
Mr. C. WYNN thought that petitions from individuals were not
to be printed.
The Marquis of BLANDFORD said, if they were not printed,
he must have them read at length.—(hear, hear.) Petitions ordered
to be printcd.—llis lordship then presented a petition from Willing.
hall, Norfolk, for a reform In Parliament—Petition ordered to be
printed.

lASSESSZD TAXES.
Mr. BRIGHT asked when the Chancellor of the Exchequer
intended to bring forward the subject of the asserted taxe%
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, to.
morrow evening, if possible.

BUY DUTIES.
Mr. BRIGHT then presented a petition from the West India
merchants of Bristol, on the subject of the torn duties. They com.
plained of the change of the government on the subject, and said it
would be satisfactory to know what had produced the change.—
Why had the ministers withdrawn the promised relief? Why
was not rum to be allowed to enter into something like a
fair competition? There were now only used two parts of
rum to 197 parts of British spirits. Was that fair ? And why had
the ministers withdrawn the protection, the hope of which had been
hi out at the commencement of the session Such changes were
meet injurious to trade; they were playing with the best ibierests
of the country, and such conduct ought not to characterize any go.
vemment.—(llear.) Petition ordered to be printed.
Lard JOHN RUSSELL postponed the motion regarding the
fees and costs of a suit in Chancery, to make way fur the adjourned
debate on the Court of Chancery. He trusted that others would
also postpone their notices.

THE JEWS.
Mr. WILSON said he would also postpone his motion, or goon ;
If allowed to go on, he would occupy only ten minutes—he pledged
himself to that. e then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to re-
lieve the Jews • he would restrict them from being judgcs—mem.
bens— but in don's name let them inherit lend. An hon. member
laughed; why did he laugh—his heart could not be in the tight
plate. He brought in the bill at the request of Protestant Clergy-
men. It Malt said that Jews might hold /ended property, because
the great 11r. Goldsmidt had it ; but that was held by trustees, he
knew the fact, for he had been in treaty for the property. (A laugh.)
He asked ter uhat was their birthright; the Jews were not to be
kept in a corner like the brute creation. But his time was come ;
he moved for leave to bring in a Bill to admit the Jews to the cur.
rotate and elective franchise.
Mr. It GRANT trusted, after what had passed on the subject
this session, and hoped, from the state of the public business, that
it would not be pressed during the session. If it were pressed—the
re-agitation of the question being against the wish of those most in.
terz•sted in the result— he must divide the house against the motion.
As ten the rights, the full rights of the Jews, he could not accept
the compromise proffered by the hon. nteinher.
Mr. WILSON said, he must do his duct'; he must divide 0..
house.

The gallery was cleartd for a 4ivision, but we umltrstood tliAt
none took place, and that the motion was withdrawn.

sr. LUKE'S SECOND etiuseu.
Mr. liUhlE moved. that the petitions from St. Luke, a.,....iii,5i il.t.
erection of a second church in the parish of Saint Luke, be rektreel
to a select committee. The whole parish was against it, and It was
surprised thrt it was allowed to proceed. lie was quite sure that
Parliament would never have granted money for aidiog in the
building of new churches where the parishes should be wholly
against the new churches proposed Here there was atr.ple room
for more than attended the church already provided. In the corn.
mince he understood evidence enough could be produced in one
day to the house that a second church was not wanted in St.
Luke's, and that the Commissioners were not justified in the course
they had pursued.
Mr. ESTCOURT said another church was requisite, because there
were 20,000 inhabitants, and accoramodadon in the existing church
lathe
for only 1,200. He trusted the House wield the modes.
Mr. BYNG said, that he could not Ind s am in the perish
1 who was desirous of having a third church time' he mode
very extensive Inquiries. The spot fixed apes *et the
ebuch was only two minutes walk ftom Cripplepis which
massive: half filled, and only five minutes ribille dm ordeber
abseek.
The CHANCELLOR of the RECHEQUIHR abiestsil to eats
glee, the Owsimisems ups avidmy tims that easy
emus' bowies their tiliereths *rowdy se with Zip
slot. Hs Ihrealle the puha at IL We INN elide the isinip-
des it patios *Nish ime Ad Is 'mdse laiiighosi .

Mr. Alderman WAITH.IIAN said. that there were only 6,000
:Arsons capable of paying rates in the parish, and the two churches
were a sufficient burthen oa the psi sit without inflicting another—
(he r.) The whole of the parishioners w, re against it, and if ano-
Uhl reason wire requisite, It was to he found in the fact that it was
wholly unnecessary. It was a public grievance of a serious elms
racer, and deserved that inquiry mould be instituted.
Mr. J. WOOD said that the hon. member for Oxford had put
thy question in an invidious way. The commission was not so con.
sutured as to prevent them from being brought into jobs. Of his
own knowledge, he knew that in the country they had been grossly
tittowed upon by partles desirotu of embarking in building spccu.
Lotions. lie should hereafter, it a member of that house bring in a
till to do away with the commission altogether.—(hear), for it ap.
prated to him, and he believed they contemplated it themselves,'
thot they were to go on In their office for a perpetuity.—( Hear.)
Dr. LUSHINGTON said he was in virtue of his office one of
C., Commissioners, and he could assure the House that they had no
• ,; r wish than that of making the funds in their hands as condo-
its possible to the end for which they were granted. Precisely
m •portion to the poverty of the palish was the necessity that
:•,.v ,hould have churches, and the Commissioners were therefore
iostihed in selecting the parish of St. Luke. So far as the Corn.
•••i-sioners had any interest or desire upon the subject, they would
• v. ao sort of objection to the most rigid investigation.
31r. /11531 E replied, and asked if it was possible that the Right
16 0.. Gentleman could lay down the doctrine that because these
..:nnitssioiturs were respectable.. they were not to be placed upon
c:scir trial a.; to the manner in which they had acquitted themselves
: !heir trust.

rhe gallery was then elearol frr a division, when there ap.

Far the Motion l4
Against it

Majority

GENERAL DARLING.

Upon our return to the gallery, we found Mr. STUART on his
less. but owing to the noise in the gallery, it was shine time before
at could hear what he said. When we could catch his voice, he
.1,4 referring to the improper conduct of General Darling, with re-
spect to the improper punishment of two men in New Smith Wales.
lie had examined all the documents which had formerly been re-
t trued to the house; and he was, in consequence, of opinion, that
General Dtrling was justified by law in the course he had adopted,
and that the death of one of these men was rather an accidental re-
:aft! than an intentional one, on the part of the General. Since
the i. however, he bad received papers from Mr. Wentworth, con.
tainina• grave charges against General Darling. and as the same
'lsaacs were in the possession of ministers roe ten months, he
thought he might at once move an Address to the Crown, praying
for the removal of General Darling. He would not, however, pro-
eacti that length, but content himself with .moving for the produc-
tion of all the papers in the possession of Govermnont relative to
General Darling.—(llear, hear, hear.). -Ile thought now that the
interference of General darling with the sentence of the Quarter
Sessions was illegal. It appeared that the irons placed on these
men were very heavy, and so constructed that they could not lie at
length, being very short ; and there were also spikes in the neck of
the collar, which prevented the possibility of their lying down.
There was now an officer in this country, of the name of Christie,
who had seen and examined the chains, and could give evidence of
their nature at the bar of the House. He had a detail of the pro-
s?ess of the illness of Suds, who died five days after the chains were
placed upon him. The first night Suds was very ill, and ap-
peared as if he was dying, according to the statement of the
other offender, Thompson. The next day his chains were taken
otr, and he ate a little fish, which was all he took until he
dled. Ile got gradually worse every day, and prior to his death
'node a declaration, that 11c attributed his death to being put
iato these chains. de died in the gaol, and yet no coroner's
..quest was held on the body. Thompson was now in England,
at Chatham, and might be examined at the bar of the House.
He charged General Darling that he had withdrawn this man from
. civil punishment, awarded by a civil court for petty larceny, in
eder to subject him to a heavier punishment, from the effects of
H7ll he died. Upon these grounds he submitted that all papers
rafected with this subject should be produced. Ile apprehended
,aat General Darling himself would, because he ought at least, it
tococent, feel anxious for inquiry, and he could not therefore see
any objection to the production of the papers, particularly as the
; ziacipaignie was General Darling's own explanation of the affair.
The hon. member then concluded by moving for the production of
:hr papers.
Sir G. MURRAY complained that sufficient notice had not been
leen cf this motion, at least no notice sufficiently specific. lie had
t.o objection to produce all the documents he might conceive to be
necessary upon reviewing them • but until be examined them, he
eould not pledge himself to produce the particular documents moved
far by the hon. member. A practice had grown up in the colony
for soldiers to mutilate themselves, in ort,er to obtain their dis.
charge, and the irons were ditected to be placed on these prisoners in
the face of their comrades, they having committed the felony of
which they were convicted with the same view—namely, that of ob-
taining their discharge by getting transported to a penal colony._
The right hon. gentleman then referred to a variety of documents
upon the subject, but in so low a tone of voice that we could hear
nothing of what he said.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that this case ought to be particularly
required into : the colony was under most extraordinary government.
In four days there had been four consecutive trials for libels, and be-
fore military juries. The conduct of General Darling was indefensi-
ble. He had passed an act making it banishment for a second libel,
the tendency of which was to bring him and his government into
hatred and contempt. The governor's conduct was monstrous to.
wards the chain gangs, for irons of four pounds weight those of thir-
te.:n pounds and more had been substituted. There was also a
collar added ; some complained of being nearly suffocated; one
man died, and on that death no coroner's inquest was held. The
letter in the newspaper about Suds's case was complained of as
libelous. Had the governor a right to pursue such conduct—to add
tc the chains, to make them more than three times the weight, and
to imprison at will ? It was evident that the governor's object was
to put down the press in New South Wales. They might depend
upon it that Mr. Wentworth would not use the strong language he
did in his publications, if there were not a large part of the popula.
tion of the like opinion.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL could not but think that the
references to pamphlets and newspapers were at least very unneces.
tory when all possible information was promised. They were not
it the habit of relying upon newspapers, and yet much of what was
adduced was from newspapers and pamphlets. As to Mr. Went.
worth's statements, many of them wen: founded in mistake ; and
truths were exaggerated. The pamphlet might be entertaining
enough, but it was chiefly founded on what had appeared in news.
papers. He thought the house ought to suspend its judgment till
the documents were before it ; he was quite sure that they would
put another face on affairs.
Mr. HUME observed, that Mr. Wentworth was a barrister of
great respectability, and had the confidence of the colonies ; and
that Mr. W. had sent home his statement, which was called a
pamphlet, calling tier inquiry into the conduct of the Governor.
There were allegations that would justify the calling home of
Governor Darling, and instituting inquiry. The last newspapers
that came were in mourning—surrounded with black lines—for the
death and burial of the Press in New South Wales.—(Hear, hear.)
The newspapers were their vehicles for advertisements ; they were
absolutely destroyed. Could all be right when such things took
place in an otherwise peaceful colony ?
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL complained of the statements
uttered ; they were founded on newspapers ; and as to Mr. Went-
worth's pamphlet it was most libellous.
Mr.JEPHSON said he did not wish to speak harshly of General
Darling's conduct, but he thought there was an appearance of Me-
piny in his conduct.
Mr. STUART replied, and said he would not press Ina motion as
on put, after the manner in which it bad been met.
The motion was altered. for copies or extracts, &c.
Sir G. MURRAY undertook to produce all the papers that were
requisite to illustrate the conduct of General Darling. Motion
therefore withdrawn.