Star.
London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

subjects, and for the purpose of persecutiofi and in-
toleralee, then the grounds for this motion were
laid. 'lle question ought to be stated fairly and
openly. If the concessions denisnda were grant-
ed, what security to the Constitution would ensue?
—But it had been stated, that they merely asked
their natural rights. It was too late in the day to
drag back the discussion to natural rights, because
those rights were best estimated in the presei vation
of social order ;—and it would not be contended
by the most zealous for these alledged rights, that
the Constitution had been abridged more than was
!necessary for the order of civil society.—lf the ad-
vocates for the Catholics wished to _extend their
rights, the question ought to he so stated ; the Con-
stitution must be altered to satisfy them, for they had
the;i share of it. The preservation of the Constitu-
Von, as settled at the Revolution, was to be looked
to, and it had been deemed expedient to exclude Ca-
'thriller, as a measure of security to the State. The
Legislature had then found it necessary, for the es-
sential of the Constitution was the preservation of the
Established
.Church. (Hear, hear.) Indeed, Gen-
tlemen vilio were now most eager for those natural
rights, called that epoch in our history, " the glorious
Revolution," and that Revolution provided those
safeguards for our Civil and Religious Liberties.—
trperience had taught our ancestors that two sorts
of Religion in the State were not congenial to its
safety. It remained with the advocates of the Ca-
tholics to sliew the necessity therefore for altering
this state of*thing4. What was now asked ?—A full
•rtie: of political power, because the Catholic

that it must now be discussed with a deuce of pas-
sion and animosity unbecoming the occasion ; but at
the same time he lamented its introduction, he was
somewhat consoled by the reflection, that it had fallen
into the hands of his Eoble Friend, whose principles
and talents so well b,aEtted him for the task, and who
had discharged that task in a manner so agreeable to
the opinions of b friends, so flattering to himself,
and so deserving the favour, the approbation, and
the admiration oPtik House of Commons. (Hear,
hear.) Agreeing with his Noble Friend in some
points, and diffenng from him in others, he should
state his agreement with all the warmth whichnatu-
tunny proceeded from respect and esteem ; and he
hoped that he should state the topics in which he dif-
fered from him, with that temper and moderation
which should mark his regret while it maintained his
principles. His Noble Friend had set out with sta.
ting, that some transactions which occurred in the
' course of last summer, had influenced him to bring
forward the motion then under their consideration.—
but if that motion was intended to embrace the con-
.
duct of the Government, and to pronounce Upon
its interference as an interference contrary to law, he
(Mr. Canning) was prepared to give it a complete
negative. At the same time he was not prepared to
state, a priori, that the act to which reference had
been so often made, was intended to operate against
such meetings as those of the Catholic Committee ;
but being advised that it was so by the Law Officers
of the Clown, he thought that Cievernment would
have taken upon themselves a most grievous resp.m.
sibility, if, in defiance of such advice, they stood aloof
from the proceedi and shut their ears against the

particip.at. pt po.
had full enjoyment of his religious opinions and pro-
tection of property, The Right Honourable and
Learned Gentleman then commented on the degree
of influence which the Priests of the Catholic persua-
sion exercise Over their flock—the blind submission of
that flock to their pastors—the influence, dangerous
as it was, of a foreign power over their spiritual con-
cerns, especially when that power is at present under
the dominion of Fiance. This was the opinion, he
observed, of the hest friends of the Catholics, and he
-;nion of the -micelle of Oxford '

pt gngs, -
representations of those who watched over the law,
and who complained of its infringement and violation.
With regard to the transactions that followed this in-
timation to the Government ; so far from calling for
the motion, they rendered it inexpedient, f. r the
amount of all was that the m:oter was in a state of
legal process—(Hear, /war.) ' He could not think
that any thing had happened from the beginning of
those differences up to the present moment which
called upon the House to set to Ireland the fearful
ole of An interference upon the part of the Le-

means of marking the particular sect ag_tin)t whom
they thought proper to direct their promions. The
Parliament of Great Britain would never adt pt the
idea of becoming Contraversionists—they never could
have intended to argue with the Priests and Bisbcp.
upon the doctrines of their faith. He knew that some
Gentlemen were fond of talking of the suff.rings of
Ireland in remote and almost unremembered periods,
—of its being treated as a conquered cuuntry from
time immemorial, and injured and repressed in cen-
-4.-s lour. .but he would nat so far back

instanced the i.pinion of the Chancellor tor(
his letter to Lord Fnigal, to shew that the influence
was dangerous ; an oriition which had not been pro-
mulgated by the " bigotted champions of intolerance
and persecution," but by the leader of the Catholic

example of :v.. _....e up, IN of
gislativeAuthority with the natural and proper course
of judicial law.—He should oppose the proposition
for going into a Committee when that was the object,
or when it could be mistaken for the object of the

turies long past—but a._ mu] n. go
to count its wrongs. any mare than he would look
back to the Norman Conquest with respect to this
country, for the purpose of complaining of the Cur-
few—(A laugh.) But part of the way he must go
- .
fir

advocates. He deprecated the idea, that taking the
sense of Parliament was the way to allay the irrita-
tion, or that keeping alive the expectancy of conces-
sions which the public interests would not allow, was
the best mode of securing the tranquillity of the
State. The c,mcessions, if granted, would, instead
of producing the effect desired, engender discontent
and disunion in the two Governments, On :,cccrint of
the difference in religious opinions. It was the very
nature of man, and so would remain until that n
ture was altered. The subject of these political dif-
ferences was, as the Noble Lord had very emphati-
cally said, " the stepping stone to ambition." The
Catholics, he believed, did not want a Catholic Se-
cretary of State or a Cath lac Chancellor ; the main
body were firmly attached to the united empire.—
The number that would be benefited by the removal
of the disabilities would be few in comparison with
the great body. Concessions had been made and
still demanded. The average of the Protestant sub-
jects was, be observed, as 5 to 1, and they were not
disposed to part with their rights and privileges.—
In examining -tne question, it would be necess:isy to
look to future consequences, if the removal of the
restrictions was to be granted. In the House of
Commons one hundred Members were returned, and
it was probable, that if Catholics were admitted to
seats in Parliament, every Member from Ireland
would be a Catholic—(Hear, hear.)---The silence
of the British nation was not to be taken as a silent
acquiescence in the justice of the claims, lin, as a con•
viction that they would not attend to t!.. m; for if
•'- - - blr

Legislature. (Hear). He would allow that the bare
fact of having acted according to law, did not go to
prove a proper purpose in the minds of the persons so
conducting themselves ; on the contrary, he saw many
cases in which the bare latter of the law was lament-
ably deficient as a moral rule or a polilical precept;
but would thcy.call for a Committee to examine into
the motives of Government ; or, if they did call for
such a Committee, would it be possible to avoid in•
traducing another party, as well as the Government,
the party of the Catholics themselves, whose conduct
c,uld not be contemplwect without score reprehen-
sion ? ( Hear, hear). He was aware that in coming
the discussion of this question, in which the feel-
ings and passions of men were so warmly interested,
without adopting in some measure the violence of a
partizan, was appearing to great disadvantage, and
embarking in a cause without any great likelih,,od of
pleasing either patty ; but such a disadvantage he
was not afraid to meet. If he knew his own heart,
he c..me to the present question uninfluenced by such
motives as either power or p•spulatity could suggest ;
he sought not the triumph of either party, but the
tranquillity, the security, and the happiness of the
whole.—Much had been said of the understanding
entered into at the time of the Union. An under-
standing there certainly was, though not expressed
by the Legislature, that whenever the Catholic cl urns
were brought forward in that House, they should be
candidly, distinctly, and dispassionately discussed.—
The Catholics sem given to understand, that though
under their own separate and resident Legislation,
ded with the local - and th?'

back, to find ie beginling of the restrictions now
under consideration. What then was the state of Eu-
rope after the reformation had taken place ? There
arose at that time two sets more influenced by the
zeal of sectarism than by the love of country. The
Catholics and the Protestants were attached each to
their own persuasion, without regard to those sacred
ties which bird us to our native climates, and the
Catholics of this nation were more aliied to the Ca-
tholics of any other nation than to their Protestant
felow subjects who were children of the same sod.—
Under those. circumstances, regulations might be ne-
cessary which should exist in no other case. In what
country of Europe were there not religious straggles,
though such struggles should not be considered com-
mon to all other times, as had been stated, nor ari-
sing out of any cause inseparable from our nature.—
Ofthose who contended that they were, he would
ask, did history bear them out ? Was it true that the
fourteen Cantons of Switzerland, consisting of Ca-
tholics and Protestants, and other dissenters, had
come to a generous resolution to bury all retigit.us
animosities? and was it true, that front that time
they went on with perfect political agreement ?
(Cries of Hear, hear, krar 1) -His Right Honourable
Friend might say, that though this might have been
the case with small States, there was a odliculty when
they came to make the application of it to great ones.
The distussirm of that piinciple would lead into m:-
nute enquiry, and the instance he had already quoted
must go against the generality of the argument. Lut
what if the same agreement had existed in anotlar
? Why if •-

the people enteitained a different opinion, t!ht table
of the House would be crowded with petitions. The
Right Honourable and Learned Gentleman at great
length .enforced the necessity for refusing to accede
to the motion, in the apprehension which he enter-
tained of the danger arising from concession, in the
View which he had previously taken. The first
change to be wrought was an alteration in the turbo.
truce of the Catholics. The physical force of the
people of that persuasion in Ireland was under the
controul of the Priesthood ; a circumstance which
might be taken advantage of for the worst of purpo-
ses. Besides, it was the nature of those who profess-
ed different religions, to eye one another with jea-
lonsy ; they might as well expect that two stars
would keep their course in the same sphere. After
some complimentary remarks upon the conduct which
the Legislature had hitherto adopted towards the Ca-
tholics, and the attention with which they had always
considered their claims, he expressed a hope, that

surrounL passun , prejudices that
unfortunately exis!e,l in their own country, the subject
of their requests could not be coolly deliberated ; yet
here, where local feelings did not act, end where the
prejudices agahist them were comparatively tempe-
rate, they might reasonably expect that sort of dis-
cussion which alone could lead to a rational and en-
lightened decision ; but now that thattimewasarrived,
that the union was accomplished, and the question
was open to a cool and impartial consideration, his
Right Honourable Friend had insinuated principles
which must shut the door against their expectations.
He agreed with his Noble Friend, as to the great im.
portauce of the subject, but he thought his Noble
Friend did not agree with him, as to the magnitude
of the difficulties that encompassed it; but whatever
difficulties might be entertained as to the view which
his Noble F: iend had taken of it, his Right Hon.
Friend had done much to simplify the question, and
to remove the difficulties that surrounded it. If, ac-

country : ,at it bud existed in France from the
period of the edict cf Mintz, ticwn to its subsequent,'
revocatioir I Let them look to the words of Oa: ta•
mous edict, they would find it declaring, that for the
purpose of stiflaig all complaints, ail subjects, ut
whatever religion, should be capable of 11:ailing ()f-
-ilets without taking any other oa•h than to be tali's.
ful to the King. They would find that Henry IV.
proceeded (tor he was speaking of no less a man)
to provide for the filling of all of•#ices in the State
without regard to the distinctions of sect, or to the
prejudices of religious jealousy. He did not say that
they were bound to fol.ow the example of France.—
That admission would come rather oddly atter the
new philosophy. But when they had before them the
opinion of the greatest Monarch of that nation, in
times when he had not barely to calculate upon pos-
sible resistance, but to encounter open opposition—
when they had, in Lis opinion, in such circum-
stances, that the best course or mode of proceeding

neither they nor their advocates ‘toukl suppose that
Parliament was to be intimidated into compliance by
icpeated and frequent applications, but would look
to a cool and deliberate exercise of judgment as their
best dependence, an most effectual advance to suc-
cess. If they adopted a conduct of this sort, their
claims, as far as consistent with the safety of the
state, would be granted almost by acclamation. But
let them skew what securities they would give, let
them state when they would stop in their demands,
..ind allow for those points on which the Protestants
%..ould insist—a Protestant Throne, the security of
their civil establishments and religious liberties.
Mr. CANNING said, that having the misfortune
to be one of those persons whom the Noble Lord who
opened the debate marked out to the particular disap-
rrobatinn of the House and of the Country ; having
rile misfortune to be one of those who could not go
L., (mire length of granting the claim of unlimited
being determined against voting for such
biro, but being determined much more against sanc-

cording to him, the only consideration was, whether
they should return to former disabilities, or whether
they should go on, he could have no doubt as to the
side upon which he should vote. Indeed, when he
looked to the state in which Ireland now stood, with
a great population, growing daily in wealth and intel-
ligence, aspiring from what they had already tasted
of freedom, to wish for more, and proceeding in a na•
tural gradation, from the accomplishment of much,
to the desire and ambition of greater. When he loo}.-
ed to this situation, a situation to which they wore
raised from a condition in which no class of people
had ever before been placed in a Christian comtry,
he could not agree that it was wise to mind': them
from the pale of the Constitution. Since the period of
their humiliation, they had disclaimed mr-ny tenets
once imputed to them, or perhaps he show ;d not have
reprobated so strongly as he was inclined to do, the
isotolic doctrine of his Right Hon. Friend. His Right
! Hon. Friend had said, the more the Catholic was re-
stricted, the rucre quiet he became. This probably
. .

was conciliation : it was impossible to despise such an
authority ; and looking from his judgment to the
racti.cal consequences of his plan, it was still more
impassible to despise that measure which placed Sully
at the head of the Council, and sent Schomberg,
Turenne, and Saxe to share the glories of the fiel.l
_(Hear, Hrar, hear.) It was impossible not to
approve of such conduct in that monarch, whose
splendid Court was the envy and the terror of all
Europe, at a moment when the world seemed to la-
bour under a religious dotage, and when he himself
was under the influence of 4in intriguing mistress.—
Who, if he were asked, whether nc would wish to
live in that grand epocli, or in any subsequent epoch
of that country, would not readily, and eagerly, and
without hesitation, place his finger on the homer.
Our Government had found its policy at all limes in
lending assistance to the Reformation; that assist-
ance led to the interference of the Catholics in our
affairs, and every thing which was done against the
Protestants on the Continent, was visited in penal

* timing by his vote the principle recommended by his
Right Hun. and Lcatued Friend ; a principle which
Would go to shut the door against the hopes of the
Catholics, and though not expressly contended for,
yet consey ientially and necessary to lead to the Le-
enactment ut those penal statutes which had once dis-
graced uur legislation. Being unfortunately one of
those persons, thus circumstanced, he wished to tres-

was true, but it was a truth which might lead therii
too far. It seemed to approach .'ne old adage, that
41 dead men tell no tales," for it must be granted,
that the man in whom the soc;,al passions were extin-
guished, was likely to be quiet enough, (hear, hear.)
But did his Right Hun. Friend really think that such
a coure was politic ? Did he think that, having re-
moved the chain from. the Catholic, we should leave

statutes upon the Catholics of Ireland at home. He
did not recommend this system, he did not approve
of it ; from the period of the revocation of the Edict
of Nantz, and when the Revolution in this country
had raised her freedom to its perfez.tion, her restra;nts
were doubled upon Ireland, and every succeeding
Legislature seemed to vie with the other in a con-
test to make t►e situation of Ireland • slavish

_ - more . AIM.
-
pas tilt some time on the attention of ti House, d him that he once wasand a liuk behind to remind degraded ; and, begging pardon of his Right
Nvhile be stated his candid sentiments upon his great fettered ? that ha-ling broken off the bonds with/ Honooratda Friend, tranquillizing too--(4/gesh.)
clues:ion. (Hear, hear.) He could not avoid re. which he was orce surrounded, we should leave a Looking to the year 168.5, when the Edict of Mintz
I.,,,ettlng deeply that it was brought forward now • ' he brand behind, to denote that h e was not always free 1 was revoked, we saw our shores covered with a fly-
1 egretted it from an opinion, which the speech of his
Was this to legislate in the spirit of wisdom, or was it ins Cleqpr--ilyiag from persecution. -"Whataregit
tight Hon. niend WAS not calculated to diminish, not rithaV to adopt a headlong and precipitate vio. Protestant-flying from what persecutiunf From

lease, disgraceful to tie character, as It must he Inju- ithe persecution of Catholic Prance! (Hear,
rieus to the interests of the country ? But were they to —And this we saw visited upon Ireland. Ina :2)
suppose that circumstances had changed the nature wry after, we again beheld our shores covered evil!;
of die disabilities under which the CiptMicsformAy a flying clergy, flying from persecution. whit'
laboured, and that that which was once soessentially clergy ? Catholic. Flying from What
what
necessary to the security of the State, should now be From the persecution of Atheistical France! A
cancelled, as being useless? For his part, he could this we were again called upon to avenge upon Id
not admit such an apology for the past. He could not Catholic p. Intlation of Ireland—(Hear, haw.) ire
conceive any state of society in which such restrictions were they so blind as to confound the cases? we::
could be justified. He could not approve of such they so blind as to .uppose that the same rttgedy
means of producing quiet He could not vote was applicable to each, it indeed it was justifiable
for propping up a state by dissociating human nature either ? The mitigation of the Popery laws whiff
so completely, and violating all the principles of afterwards took place was a warning of a cha
Government, both in a political and moral view.— though his Right Honourable Friend was not :ft'
Excuses might, certainly, have existed then, which situation to lift his warning voice against it.
did not exist now, for those who would defend, not knew that there were some who represented the
the system, but the fragments of the system, net the Catholics as having obtained all the priviierthio:",
Machine, but the remnants of a machine broken and to granted to them under circumstances nut
scattered in those latter times by the growing libera. honourable to the liberality of this country, and
lities of the human mind. The 011111 lay on those times when they were rather exacted from cur we,,,. -
who recommended such perverse industry, to shew ness than obtained from our justice. It might 1;e
.upon what principle it was necessary to shew to itt- true to a certain degree, that in 178'2, the situation's
tune ages what that system was—(hear, !star!) His which we stood facilitated the concessions then ms,4
Right Honourable Friend had argued the question to Ireland ; but he be:ieved it was equity true that
as it' it was solely a religious one, but he should ar- ;these were not concessions to the Irish Cahouet.,
gue it, he felt it his duty to argue it in that House rhe Protestant, upon his own pint, came askptt
upon a political ground alone. His Right Honour- boons fuom England, ot which he did not deal
able Friend had said t - at he would not go into the lequal portion to his Catholic brethren. It was test
docirnie of Transubstantiation, or the adoottion of that ftee tr.tde and other privileges were gr mid to
Saints, or other mysterious points. But .shy did he the Irish community; but it as riot fair to wee
not go into them ? Because he took them for trom thence that the concessions to the Catlin
granted, and argued on them without submitting to were not granted voluntarily aad f,eely. sitteel796
the inconvenience of proving them. When the Le- n thing material had been granted to them Vp to
.isiature selected those doctrines, it was only as. the . the preseut period ; tut could any one -

maintain-dus
-
what remained to be gianted si,ould he withheld?
unless he was possessed of the s ime Af.1.1 in the
ence of numbers with his Right Um-arable Friend,
ssho had said, that if the Catholics were frw, it Ira
nut worth white t., grant the r claims, and it ow%
it was not safe --(4 laugh.) It WAS the opinion 4
many, that a temperate Ji.cossion could not be had
till the Union had taken place. That time rat ooa
arrived : but, as if obstacles were ever is be 'btu.,
the way of the argument, the Catholics in a lasein.
--e had been ill advised -eh to -

stance hau adru._ . enough to put forward
among the number of their claims the repeal of tls
Union : a repeal of the. Union (exclaimed Mr. Causal)
—a 'dissolution of the two kingdoms—a disublutina 4
the heptarchies I But if theproposit.oa was not

.
ficient to the purposes of good , it was efficient to tio
purposes of evil. Indefesence to the Honourable
Gentleman who had given notice Of the :notice ft
that repeal, that if Paraaeteat were even to
it, and it he by his eloquence was to rennin arty.
ing it, the situation of the Catholics ebb respect w
the objects of their ambition would be outer*
worse. It would be injutiotts to the Catholic ids.
rests, and it would be high treason against squats
Ireland. If a man were to set about devisieg
an impediment to the Catholic Cause, he could at
succeed better than by knitting those two &ash
together ; but with respect to the %isles of theCatbs.
lies for an enlargement of the privileges they at pm.
rant possessed, he had alwayseonsidered themrative.
Would any man who had the right to vote, set Me
in time for the right to sit ? Was it to be believed
that Parlament had granted him the one without a
view to the ultimate granting of the other ? Was itle
be believed that they would have opened to thesis
bar, if they ,intended eternally to shut up from thee
the avenues to the bench ? Was it to be believedtint
they would have permitted them to acquire poverty,
and to act in all the subordinate parts of the political
system, if they intended, with his Right Honourable
and Leaned Friend, eternally to exclude elm fee
office? They were referred to the Revolution in Traac
and no man was more inclined to reftr toil than be,fat
exampl s that ought to be avoided and detested. IA
them not shut th.!ir eyes to the state of the boiy pais
tic of France, which had rendered it snseeptibletotk
pois mof Ito,. 1,16 .n. Let them not forget that tbs

~.xi.tence of unpopular and unjust distinctions, Ai*
.-ith-tit the policy of the Popery Code to extiarik
the rising spirit from that energy ',faction to who it
must have tended, exhibited principles equally Objec-
tionable. If he was to divide the right of veiling Eros
the r.tight of sitting, without any view to their &ale
connection, he did not know whether he weak ait
rather give the higher privilege, than refuse the lower;
whether he would not rather give to a people died
high spirit, cf such great powers of thinking, al sedi
resources, of such energies and determiaatines, the
light to sit in Parliament, than a sight to return dotir
Members, with an intention of shutting them oat*,
the topmost round cf their ambition. But it had bee
said that the gre.at body of the people were not Ss!
rested in this. Oh, nd ignorance dham
nature, not to know tgar the bare possibility of area.
nest called forth all the faculties of the mind, ad Al
the grzatness of the character 1 To uke the Bar*
an instance. Was it proper that, filled withC,atliek

lawyersof great abilities, and influence over thepublit
mind, they should not be admissible to the Bescbl..
No man thought more highly than he did of the Is;
it had given t.) that house some of its greatest on&
meets—it hid given to the State some of its age
Statesmen—it hid given to the community at kit
some of the most distinguished of its members..
they were to deprive the Bar of the natural
of ambit on, what would be the consequence%
Catholics being the more numerous class of the osa
munity, would consequently supply the grater wmo
bey to the Bar ; there would thus, in time, be ACP
tholic Bar and a Protestant Bench, and what la kii"
nitc r,tirce of dissitisfsctiou and discontent tenaM
created by the eternal separation of that Bar frell9lo
Bench ? According to the proposition of his are
Hon. Friend, too. there could never be a nativeoio
thvi:c :ref al. -Foreign Catholic Generals may'
the enemy at the head of British cavalry. be 111,1 i
never could be a native Catholic:General to Widow
to action.—(Hoer, leer.) He besought' dmi,ll4llll

thllefore. net t., shut chi door againsitheekedbek
brave native °Seen, by the trinqu:ll,sing vote
posvd by his Right Hon. Friend.—(Asee. ber_._•r;
They b!)olald be so re* Isere, it sonteed•M'
there was to be a Catholic Chencelinet or a
General nt the head of a British army. the NM',
Bonaparte would inspire such Catholic (Us ^
or Gmetal to bring in their religion, and 10

z.iY—
get our Protestant Escils
those fedrs visionary t When the rogr
future times shall point out the limits drama
endeaVotn. to number the distinctions d
will dud them all terming ems adoreillW •
dos. The troth S dint ail his actiofts