Star.
London, England, 1822-03-21 00:00:00

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'nbt one senior dab could be spared ; yet what had
be done? He bad tensed oat five or sic senior clerks,
land if half a dozen attire were tarried oat, the busi-
ness could be done as well as now. Mr. Sullivie
had been ten years in the office, and he received.
1,0001. Now had he, by seniority or otherwise, ac-
quired such a salary? But it was more: a person
having 1,2001. a year had been reduced, and Mr.
'Sullivan had his salary increased to 1,2001. a year.
This was Ministerial economy. He wished the Noble
Lord to say how many young men had been lately
received into the office? During the last two years,
and since the pretended economy had commenced',
eight or nine young men had been received. The
half-pay was 17,4171 The changes which the Noble
Lord had made, did not, in short, promote economy
or the public service.
Lord PALMERSTON said, the Hon. Member
gave very little encouragement to reduction, when
he treated reductions that had been made in such a
manner. He (Lord Palmerston) had last year stated
the inconvenience of dismissing senior clerks and
when, in obedience to the orders of the Government,
_ _

he had dismissed some, the Hon. Member turned
that as a charge againsthim. With an inconsistency
peculiar to himself, the Hon. Member turned round,
and charged as a fault the very act which he had for-
merly urged to be done. Young men were said to
have been introduced. That was precisely the mode in
which reduction had been effected. Persons receiving
high salaries had been reduced, and others had been
appointed at 901. and not so many in number. This
was a reduction from salaries. of 10001. 8001. and
7001. a-year, to salaries of 901. and fewer, too, in,
number. Let. this be compared with 1797. Then
the clerks had been few, and in receipt of high sala-
ries. Now it was the reverse. The D.:puty's -salary
was fixed at 20001. in future. The person who now
held that situation had no extra allowance. When,
he had been chief examiner of Army accounts, be
had received 15001. a-year. He had also he'd the',
office of supplying garrisons abroad, by which he had
been making a 'early saving of 9001: He thus gave
up 2400/. and received only 25001. Where the Hon.
Gentleman obtained his information, Fe did not nor
did he wish to know; but his informer could haie
given him better information. It was impossible to
arrange the business better for the public service,
or fur any clerks to work harder. Since 1810, not
fewer than twenty-six clerks had died of pulmonary
complaints, and disorders arising from sedentary ha-
bits. The lion. Gentleman was quite mistaken in sup-
posing that there was an allowance for publishing
the monthly Army List. The Hon. Gentleman. did
not understand the difference between yearly and
monthly lists, and here again it appeared what a
precious assistant he would have in the Hon. Mem-
ber—(A lough on the Ministerial side).--The annual
list could not be published, except at a loss. The
Hon. Gentleman had also proposed an establishment
of 15 persons at 15,0001. and this was what he would
call economy. The names of Clerks had been so
commingled by the Hon. Gentleman, that each case
could not be answered. Hi> private Secretary re-
ceived no more than his services merited ; and others
who assisted in the laborious duty of arranging and
managing accounts were in a similar situation. The
routine of office and the manipulation of his (Lord
Palmerston's) papers, could not be performed with-
out such allowances as were given. Mr. Sulliv .n he
had appointed at once, instead of a former Clerk
who had retired. With respect to his services, though,
he (Lord Palmerston) might be partial to him, the
more he inquired, the more reason he found to be-
lieve that he had acted rightly in this appointment.—
He only received 10001. But prospectively the sa-1
Lary was fixed at 12001. The Hon. Gentleman asked
how many young men had been introduced in the
last year ? He (Lot d Palmerston) had appointed six
temporary clerks last year, with a distinct under-
standing that no retired allowances were to be given.
The Noble Lord then went into a comparison of the I
present expense of the department, with the charge,
which had been made upon it in former }ems. In the
year 1806, the vote had been 56,0001. and the num-
ber of persons employed 105 ; in the present year, 106
persons were employed, and the vote was 44,0001.
only. It was evident, therefore, that between 1806
and 1822, a considerable reduction in salaries must
have taken place. The period of 1792 had been ad-
verted to; but let the amount of duty done in that
year be looked at. In 1792, the number of papers
sent out of the Office was 7200, and twenty-one persons
were employed. In the last year the number of papers
sent out had been 99,722, and the number of persons
employed 132 ; so that if the persons employed had
increased in number five or six-fold, the quantity of
business done had increased in a much larger degree.
Colonel DAVIES was glad to see that economy
had been practised; but believed Ministers had been
been driven into it.

Mr. HUMS 'fook the opportunity of stating, whilst
Honourable Members opposite were charging Mem-
bers on his side of the House with mistakes, that it
would very soon appear, by a paper that was on the
table of the House, that the blunder charged upon
him relative to the Navy Estimates was altogether
unfounded. He assured the House that it would
soon be seen that the mistake of which he had been
accused, to the amount of seven millions, was no
mistake at all; as a return was then upon the table
which had extracted the sums in the same way as he
had done, and arrived at the same total. With re-
gard to the increase of salary to Mr. Sullivan's office,
he had only to say, that if it was made in consequence
of the merits of that individual, it was he who ought
to receive the benefit of it, and not his successor.
Lord PALMERSTON could not help observing
on the extraordinary course followed by the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume). In the first
place, he (Lord Palmerston) had to set him right as
to his blunders about the Army List ; next, he spoke
of an increase of salary to a clerk in his office, and took
occasion to insinuate that the augmentation was made
bccause the individual was a relation of his own. He
(Lord Palmerston) took the pains-to relieve him from
his error, here, by stating that that individual re-
ceived no increase of salary whatever. The Hon. Gen-
tleman upon this got up and told them, that this in-
dividual, if he did not receive an increase of salary,
ought to receive it—(Hear, hear).—With all dete- ,
1 tence to the Hun. Member, he must say that it was
waste of time to listen to such speeches—(Hear.)
1 Mr. BENNET contended that his Honourable
Friend (Mr. Hume) was not open to any chatge of
inconsistency. -

Mr. Sit Mtn
'tad explained tIP;
clerka and .then
havins'
ri
• retiriej,pension from
I,oid PALMERSTif /es Linable t,
affirm or cqntratdict the guarded which had been
„made Waded to the individual in question, It it
must have °centred long before he (Lord Palmerston)
came into the Office. -He only knew that he held a
commission in the Commissariat, and also that he
was Private Secretary to General Fitepatrick, and
received half-pay.—The question was put and carried.
The next vote was for 26,9531. for the Army Pay
Office.
Colonel DAVIES thought the office of Paymaster-
General might very well be dispensed with ; but as
he did not expect to be 'able to persuade the Com-
mittee of this; he would direct himself to the present
high expenditure of the department. In 1797, the
amount of salaries was 11,8401. in 1822, the charge
was upwards of 26,0001. when the extent of the Army
was not to be compared with what it was in the fir-
mer period. The salaries now amounted to 19,0001.
and this, it was to be remembered, was for an office
which was ministerial, and the duties of which
might be performed by the Bank of England, with-
out the present office at all. He should not himself
propose any amendment, but he would support one
made by any other person.
sir- C. LONG laid, there was no office in the State
which had undergone so much revision as this. It
had been subjected to the consideration of a Committee
, in 1791, 1797, 1807, 1811, and 1817; and of all these,
he would, venture to say, that not one of these Com-
mittees ever said the office was useless. Yet the Hon.
Member came down and said that all these Com-
mittees .were wrong. The Hon. Gentleman talked
without knowing anything about the matter, super-
ficially, not to say ignorantly,, when he called this
office a ministerial office. During the time that he
hid been in the situation he had done all in his power
to reduce the charge of the department,- and when
the Hon. Member talked of its having undergone no
revision, he must beg him to look at the progressive
diminution of charge of late years :
In

1816 it was 243,000 In 1820 it was 229,400
1817 • 34,000 1821 28,800
1818 29,000 1822 26,353
1819 30,000
Thus, for the list six years, it had been suffering a
gradual reduction—(Hear, hear). When he first went
into his situation there was much business in arrear ;
noy there was none, everything being before the au-
ditors up to the latest period. He defied the Hon.
Member to do the business with a less number of
clerks than he (Sir C. Long) had. He had reduced
many, and was ready to reduce more whenever it was
apparent that it could be done consistently. He knew
that Hon. Gentlemen opposite cried out against the
weight of reduction falling upon the juniors alone,
the senior clerks remaining untouched. Now it so
happened that he had diminished the salaries of all
the upper clerks in his office. He assured the Com-
mittee that he had done all that was possible to re-
duce the establishment as low as possible, consistently
with the public welfare ; but he did not mean to say
that he expected to satisfy thg Honourable Gentleman
opposite—(Hear, hear).
Mr. HUME declared himself unable to see where
the great reductions had been made. It was true
there was a diminution of charge of 1,9081. But
there were offices with salaries from 1,8001. to 8001
a-year, and therefore as the higher clerks were only
reduced, such a saving was inconsiderable The Pay
Office, as it was called, paid no money. A person
might carry in his pocket all the money paid by that
department. They met the demand upon them with
a check. The Right Hon. Member (Sir C. Long)
found fault with the term ministerial, used by his gal-
lant Friend (Colonel Davies) ; but he (Mr. Hume) had
only to refer to the Reports of the Finance Commit-
tees, and he there saw, that in these Reports the office
was styled a ministerial office, with no controul over
the public expenditure. He was ready to admit that
it was much better ordered since the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Sir C. Long) presided over its adminis-
tration. The various operations through which an
applicant for payment had to pass, certainly rendered
it necessary to have a number of clerks. But one active

person at the Bank, conversant with Powers of At-
torney, would discharge the whole business. With
respect to the prize-money and pensions at Chelsea
Hospital, that had nothing to do with the Pay Office.
The Right Hon. Gentleman was, he was aware, very
diligent in his attendance, but he sat there not as the
Paymaster-General, but as the Member of a Board.
He wished to know whether the simplifying of the
public accounts was to extend to any other office but
the Treasury ?
Sir C. LONG said he did not object to the simpli-
fying of the public accounts, if a better mode, and.
one as secure as that now acted upon, was pointed
out. He was a public accountant to the amount of
300 millions, and whatever the new mode was, it
was his duty to take care that it was one which se-
cured himself. As to what was said of transferring
the duties of the Pay nraster-General, and of perform-
ing the duty by a Clerk in the Bank, he despaired of
satisfying the Hon. Gentleman, his views of economy
were not always practicable.
After a few words from Colonel DAVIES and Lord
PALMERSTON,
Mr. PEARSE, said it was quite extravagant to
suppose that the Bank could discharge the duties of
the Pay Office.
After a few words from Colonel DAVIES and Mr.
HUME, the vote was agreed to.—The next votes were,
For the Adjutant-General's Department at Head-
quarters
For the Adjutant-General's Department in North
Britain

a *Wed __ pitsent
salary had given to thiJodge.tdvotite-Oeltek
ral. Now that the inereased the duties bf
the JudgesAdtocates of Scotland and Ireland had
fallen upon this Officer, with the loss of his Mott able
assistant, he did not think it was the time to reduce
his salaryr-(Hear).
Mr. HUME thought that the Ades of the office
must be so much diminished in this time 'of peace,
that a salary of 1800 t. would be quite enough for 'a
JudgelAdvocate. He therefore moved that in place
of 4580 h the vote be 3580/.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, the Judge-
Advocate had remained on his present footing ever
since the Revolution, and had received the Smite
emolument as the junior Judges of the Court of
King's Bench The situaticd of Judge-Advocate
Cleneral had always been considered equal in, rank,
and entitled to the same rate of emolument; as the
junior Judges of the Superior Omits at Westiniaster:
It was of great use to the Army; The lives and li-
berties of every individual, and, what was still more,
the chat acter of every Officer in the Ariny were under
his controul, and must be considered as deb ending;
to a certain degree, on the talents; the knowledge,
and the prudence of the Judge-Advocatvkleneraf—
(Hear, hear).—The Hon. Member, seemed to think
that the-extent of his duties had'decreased since the
peace, but he was mistaken ; for it was since 1811
only that General Courts Martial had been intro-
duced... That Officer was a Privy Councillor to the
sing, and was appointed for the protection of the
Army. He presided over all Courts Martial ; for in
these Courts the evidence was received according to
the forms of the Civil Courts, and in every respect
cOnducted -anticline to the Law of England.
In all criminal cases tried by Courts Martial, the
greatest atteninwfiii-d- etacinbsrvtgre aqiiired- with
regard to evidence. No person, he was sure, that was
aware of the importance of this Officer to the Army
and to the Country, would think the-salary affixed tO
his situation by the Administration of lirenville and
Fox too much. . -

Mr. HUM F admitted that the Judge-AdvOcate had
a better Counsellor in the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man than in himself, when he was in the House; but
he could as soon be persuaded that black was white,
as that the duties of his drffice were as great now, in
time of peace, as they had been in a period of oar.
The SPEAKER said, that as he had once filled the
office of Judge-Advocate-General, he was anxious to
put the. Committee in possession of what he could
state troar experience respecting its important duties.
He should not have troubled the Committee, if it
had been merely a question of salary, but he was
anxious that they should-not be. misled 'with respect
to the delicacy and difficulty of the duties ohich be
had to perform, or to the manner in which the ques-
tion of peace or war was calculated to affect those
duties. He wished also to guard them against the
notion that the importance of those duties could be
measured by the mere number of the proceedings
which took place. When he filled the office, he f •und
that its difficulties did not arise from the uumber of
Reports transmitted from abroad. The Judge-Ad-
vocate-General had the right of private audience
with the Sovereign on military matters. He iid not
mean to say that he •hould be paid 2,5001. a-year,
instead of 1,5001. for that reason, but merely to shew
that the office was a most important one. There
was no act of a Judge-Advocate in any part of the
world, for which the Judge-Advocate General was
not responsible ; and he could assure the Commit-
tee, had ever come before him, upon which he
did not report to the Crown with that conviction,
and after the most laborious investigation. No
case had. come before him which he did not sift,
with a view to discover not only whether the evi-
dence proved the charge, but whether it was legal or
illegal. During the first two years that he was con-
nected with the office, he had never been ahse..t five
weeks; and during the whole time that he held it, not
a fortnight together. In addition to this, he could
state, that not a day had elapsed in which he was
not in communication of stsict confidence with the
Commander-in-Chief and the Secretary at War. If,
therefore, the office was to be maintained at all; it
should be maintained with a dignity corresponding
with its high functions, and calculated to secure the
confidence of the Army, and of the country in general.
The Committee then divided on the Amendment—
Ayes, 18 —Noe, 12 / —Major ity, 106.—The Estimate
was then agreed to.
The sum of 12,7651. was then voted for the Comp-
troller of Army Accounts, Clerks, Scc.
The sum of 57151. being moved for the expense of
the Medical Department,
Mr. HUME wished to have the expense of both
branches of the Medical Department in the nature of
one establishment. He considered the sum more than
strict economy ought to allow.
Lord PALMERSTON said the duties were of the
most important description. The Officers of the Esta-
blishment were entrusted with the health of the troops.
The Estimate, and also that for the Medical De-.
partment in Ireland, were agreed to.
The sum of 19,353/. was granted for Medicines for
the Hospitals. •
For Volunteer Corps in Ireland, 61,3191.
To defray the expense of the different troops re-
cruited for the East India Company's service, the
sum of 53,1081.
To the Estimate for the Royal Military College,
Sandhurst, amounting to 13,602/,
Mr. HUME objected. He wished t know what
occasion there was for so many Staff Officers? The
Governor and Staff Officers were, in the Hors) a able
Member's opinion, an unnecessary expense to the
country. The young men educated at the Establish-
ment were numerous. Although they had 290 pu-
pils, it was well known they .could not receive com-
missions. It was cruel to educate young men for a
objectior The orst, proposedilentb
lsitaavtiionigi thstaetyedcothueldwnhootle
a reduction of 5,0001. from the vote.
aotttaiir:i.s
Lord PALMERSTON said, it was obvious the
Hon. Gentleman's object was not so much to reduce
the vote as to break down the establishment. Any
man who had turned his mind to military history
must know that unless an army was commanded
by Officers acrptainted uita the discipline or moors,

a

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ret what had Mr. W Mita did not think that the•Nbiiiitorci. hart. thaw; it Vire tte intention io reluE64 ll ta
senior clerks, had explained the charge which had been Made of a 'atiim.
mt df salary, he iiii4inly shah! take thi siiitid
oat, the busi- clerk having left. she Wet Office for the Commissar- of the House on a Ittotthil tut doing ib in the preiin't
Mr. Sullivan riat, and thou returned to the War•litsCe§ tteeiviag Estithaten •
I he received. A retitintpeusion from the Commissariat: The en AiliEttiiit• df the Excittgitit 410;
otherwise, ac- _Loid PALMERSTON confessed he was !triable to when this office had been settled in 1801, the'rfseni
area a person affirm OV., amtradict the assertibit which had been salary had betiti given to thi1i,100.414...i.,i,—rt..z.