Star.
London, England, 1831-02-15 00:00:00

TITHE..

The Earl of SUFFIELD presented a petition from Waisham, in
Norfolk, against the operation of tithes, and praying for a commute-
:W. The noble earl said that the petitioners calling for commuta.
din of tithes, did so with a view to provide better for the clergy. He
ceuhl not avoid opposing what he considered a delusion, namely, the
sta:ta,ent that the removal of tithes would be a saving to the farmers.
it ws+ known that the moment tithes should be taken off, the landlords
wou'l raise their rents. Another delusion was the odium cast on the
clap. The noble earl had no doubt the clergy, least of all, deserved
tr blame which had been cast upon them. His hope was that a noble
lord who had held out these delusions, would feel they were calculated
to do the least possible injury.
Lord BERFSFORD presented a petition from Berwick.ou-Tweed,
:omplaining of the injurious effects which the circulation of small bank
notes in Scotland had upon that town.
The Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented a petition from the Roman
Catholic Clergy of ii'atertord, for equalization of the funds for educa.
tior of the poor.
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TAX ON TRANSTNIT.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM observed, that be had heard, from
:;nn,tion report, that it was the intention of his Majesty's ministers to
eat a duty on the transfer of stock. His hope was that in the answer he
inight receive from the noble earl, it would appear that his Majesty's
ministers had abandoned that measure; but however that might be, he
;wk the opportunity, eoniidering, as he did, the measure to be a breach
If fait!' to the public creditor, and most injurious to the:country, but
rorc especially as the country was then situated, to give notice that it
K:, his intention, when the measure came up to that house, to ex.
pu,..t his opinion upon it. The noble duke considered it no other than
I.v.,lutionary measure.

Earl GREY raid, that it was quite clear that the noble lord had no

to give the notice he had done, es no Bill, either upon this subject
.r any other, could be brougbt before the house without being brought
under discussion and notice of that house. Before he gave the noble

lake any snorer to his question, he begged to inform him that he could

• : sit there and hear it stated by any noble lord, that measures which
vcre brought forward by his Majesty's government were of a revolu.

I;orary character—(hear, hear)—or a breach of faith. If he thought the
measure deemed the appellation given to it by the noble duke, he
heulti have been one of the last men to have consented to its proposal
f.. 1 the consideration of Parliament. So far from considering it of a
revolutionary character, he, at the time of agreeing to its proposal to
Parliament, believed is to be the one best calculated to promote the
general interests of the country, and to give an activity to the in-
dustry and perseverance of its manufacturers. (Hear, hear, hear.)—
His Majesty's Ministers, knowing how necessary it was to relieve the
industrious classes of the community from some of the taxes that
pressed so heavy upon them, thought the best course to adopt was to
resort to this tax. In taking off some of the taxes his Majesty's MI.
rasters had been anxious to impose others which would operate with but
little pressure on the public Interest, and would not affect the industry
of the country. With that view he (Earl Grey) moat cheerfully con.
.:urred with his other colleagues in the proposal of a tax upon the trans.
of stuck, a species of property which, amidst the general distress
wh,elt had prevailed in the country, pressed so grievously upon the
commercial and agricultural interests of the country, amidst all, this pro.
petty steed alone unaffected. However, as a very strong impression had
then coated upon the subject, and as certainly there appeared to be
pat difficulties attending the collection of this tax which I did not an.
ticipate—looking at this, and looking also at the feeling excited upon

subject, it was the intention of ministers to withdraw the proposal
nittti, tax. There would be no such bill brought forward as the noble
len7 was eagerly and anxiously expecting. He regretted that his Ma.

Ministers would be deprived of the means of doing good, but it
:-..ust be remembered it was not their fault. Instead now of coming to
Parliament with a proposition for further reduction,another course might
hne to be pursued, these means of doing good being limited, con-
and weakened. The noble earl had proposed a tax on the
iisrsicr of capital, because he found it would affect a species of property
shish had not been suffering in common with the commercial and agri-
iiltural interests. On the contrary, it had increased in value.—(Hear,
hear.)—lt did appear to the Noble Earl a fair, just, and
t,i,iitable proposal to offer such a tax to Parliament.--( Hear.)
tieing so, he should always contend that he had studied the interest
the people. The noble duke bad called it a breach of faith—wherei
the breach of faith ? He admitted then: was an act passed against
tressure of this description, but the projectors of the measure were
equally bound to consider the fundholders liable to contribute to the ne-
ce“hies of the country. He did not mean to justify a breach of faith,
he wished noble lords to look back to the property tax imposed con-
trary to existing statutes, but justified upon the necessities of the state.
The measure had been proposed in lieu of a property tax, which, in time
of race. was objectionable. A property tax was exposed, in the present
ate et the world, to the danger of driving capital out of the country.—
Erange impression had been made against the measure, and there!
.I,ktit be difficulties with respect to the measure which they did not at first
• e; bat they had taken the best advice which time would allow them
procure. The measure had received the sanction of the greatest corn.
,ncrcial authority in the city of London. That authority was no other
:han the Governor of the Bank of England. (Hear, hear.) He
was sorry to say the tailure of the measure would render it impossible
to give up some of those taxes which otherwise would have been repeal-
ed. lie could only ray if the Noble Duke was disposed to attack the
measures of his Majesty's Government, he should be ready to meet
‘.t:s opposition. They had exerted their efforts to produce the best
.gnat, and his hope was that they might be able to persevere. He bad
30 doubt they could act for the advantage of the country, whilst they
ad the confidence of the country and Parliament.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY thought the fuadholder ought
to bear an equal share of the public butthen. The Noble Marquis
saalti not admit that the measure deserved revolutionary character, be. it had been introduced to keep up the prosperity of the country.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM congratulated the country upon
the escape it had had. From information he had just received, he
understood that the Governor of the Bank gave no more than his indi-
vidual opinion.
Earl GREY admitted that to be the fact.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA thought the fondholder should con-
tribute a due proportion to the wants of the poor and the exigencies of
the state. The measure which had been withdrawn could not, in his
opinion, be a breach of public faith. The Noble Earl professed him.
Pelf the advocate of a modified property tax. The breach of public
faith was making the public pay the public creditor 20s. for 16. With
respect to those taxes which it was the intention of his Majesty's Mi.
:,liters to repeal, he did hope that they might yet be able to carry into
tfect the substantial part of their propositions.
Lord FARNHAM said, the objection he had to the measure which
ra.l been withdrawn was, that it could not be considered a fair and equi-
table property tax. He thought a fair property tax the only measure to
9tve the country. He was one who thought they never would be able to
rescue the country from its difficulties without a new system of finance.
Lord ELLRNBOROUGH opposed the introducdoo of a property
,x• Thinking it necessary to advert to the woofer measure,
of he wished
t 2 know from the noble marquis what was the intention his Majesty's
1-13•qtriment with respect to the timber trade ?

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE at that time felt difficulty in mak-
ing communication upon the plan for altering the timber clinks.
laord. ELLENBOROUGH said persons were anxious to know
the bistisdons of his Majesty's Goveroment on that most important
sulsjost.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said he wished not to take on
himself the Ace of Chancellor of the Exchequer, in the other place,

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he was one who in the House
of Cototweas opposed a property tax, because he at that time considered
it the offirslag of the mother of all miseries—war. At the present day
he bold himedf at bbaq, without inconsistency, to consider whether
the dreentehoses did snit to justify a tax GO property. He thought
those ebtueelleweis did exist, and that there was no inconsistency In leis
oemenftg to take funded property answerable to the exigencies of the
seas. He denied that abreacts of faith had been committed in the measure
withdrawn. He guarded himself and colleagues againbt the imputation
of a design to effect a breach in the high honour which had so long die-
tinguisbed the country. The Noble and Learned Lord begged the
House to be aware of the facilities which offered for removal of funds to
the French funds where 3 per Cents. were at 60—in England 3 per
Cents. were at 80. Great advantages might be lost by the transfer tax,
but at the same time it had been found liable to objection. Every
transfer subject to duty might involve a proceeding in equity, and per-
haps three additional Courts of Equity would be insufficient for the
settlement of the complicated transactions arising out of such transfers.
The Noble and Learned Lord concluded by observing that if all the
parts of the late budget were fairly considered, he had little doubt but
it would be found more satisfactory than that of any former Ministry.—
(Hear.)
Lord WYNFORD said a few words, which were inaudible before
the Bar.

PORTUGAL.
Lord STRANGFORD gave notice, that on Friday next he should
move for certain papers relative to the commercial interests of this coun-
try with the kingdom of Portugal; circumstances which had recently
taken place in that country rendered such production necessary, in order
that the public mind might be set at Test on the subject of the trade to
PortugaL At the same time he begged to assure the house, that the
motion he had to make should not iavolve any question of a political
nature, and least of all, that relative to the succession to the Crown of
Portugal.
Earl WINCHILSEA presented a petition from a parish in Kent,
against the coal duty ; and a similar petition was presented by Earl
Carnarvon.

CHURCH PROPERTY.
Lord KING, in pursuance of his former notice, rose and moved for
a return of all the clergy resident and non-resident in England holding
livings under eccleslasuce' or lay impropriators, together with the
amount of stipend paid to each. In doing so the Noble Baron observed,
that these returns formerly were laid on the Table of the House in a
regular manner ; he had, however, looked Into their Lordships' library,
and he could only find them down to 1813, from which period be should
date his motion. The Noble Lord then repeated nearly the same line of
argument as that adopted by him on a former night, when he brought
the same question before the House, observing, that his object
in moving for these returns was, if 'possible, to ascertain the num-
ber of pluralities, so that they might be reduced or put an end to.
A right reverend Prelate (Bishop of London) who addressed the house
the other night, stated that if the whole Church revenue were added to.
gether, it would only afford an average of about 3861.185. dd. per
annum to each clergyman of the Church of England ; on reference to
the very same book from which he supposed the right reverend prelate
had taken his statement, he found six hundred clergymen entered with
annual receipts of 6451: If pluralities were to exist, he (Lord King)
was of opinion, thet the stipend derived from them should not exceed in
amount the average of all the others put singly. It was not, he con-
tended, lay-Impropriadon that caused pluralities, and the arrangement
he had proposed would effectually prevent that evil. The noble lord
then referred to what he called a recent case of plurality, and read from
a newspaper a notice of the removal of the son in-law of the Bishop of
Ely to the rich vkarage of Wisbeach, worth 8,3401. per annum, and
held live other livings besides; one of which (Ethan)) had been pro-

,
mired to a younger ion.
The LORD CHANCELLOR here observed that he believed the

appointment had not been made.
Lord LINO resumed. It was a fact well known, that whilst these
rich livings were held by individuals enjoying others, the working cler-
gyman, or Curate, had only 301. a year allowed to him by his cabal.
aide, whilst the parish, by subscription, made the sum to about 701.
The noble lord then alluded to the late Bishop Horsley, who went great
lengths to uphold the Church hierarchy, but the Right Rev. Prelate—
(Bishop of London) on a recent occasion, seemed inclined to go further.
He concluded by moving for the returns.
The Bishop of LONDON saw no objectit.ns to the returns being
made. In reference to what the noble baron had said relative to the
payment of the clergy of the Church of England, he held himself bound
to state that after the most minute inquiry he had made, he found that
the maximum received was front 3501. to 3651. in short, it would be
found that the clergy of the Established Church was so poorly provided
for, that if the sum total of their revenue were divided amongst the
whole of the clergy of England and Wales, it would not yield more
than 1861. per annum to each individual. On a future occasion, when
the question of tithes and church property would be brought before
the house, be should enter into a detailed statement, shewing the
exact receipts of the church; the public and their lordships, he had no
doubt would be surprised to learn the smallness of the amount thereoE
The public, be lamented, had been greatly misled by a publication, pro.
bably the one which the noble baron had taken for his guide; in that
book, one thousand minor canons were stated to be in the receipt of 5001.
a-year each ; nothing could be more wide of the fact, both in point of
nnmber and amount. Again the same publication stated that the Arch.
deacons received annually 6001. each, ratite' it was notorious, that that
useful class was the most miserably paid of all the clergy ; so much
so, that the sum received scarcely defrayed the expense of their visits-
tions.—(Hear.)
Earl ROSSLYN was of °pint.. Nit the returns could not be
made out. _ _

Lord KING said, that he contrived the returns he called for could
easily be obtained by applying to the secretaries of the Bishops.
Whilst he was on his legs, he begged to assure the Right Reverend
Prelate, that it was not from the " Extraordinary Black Book" whence
he took his information relative to the income of the Church, but
from the other work, which was friendly to the clergy of the establish-
ment ; he hoped that the Right Reverend Prelate was under some
mistake as regarded the pay of the clergy, and that it was not so
smell as be had stated.
Ear GREY was of opinion, that by various returns being made the
noble lord's motion might be approximated ; for his own part, he had
no objection to grant the Returns • but he would suggest, as the better
course to be adopted by the noble baron, that he should withdraw his
motion for the present, and put it in a better position at some future time.
He could not but advert to the great inconvenience which arose from
these discussions taking place, as they had done, night after night, on
the presenting of petitions. He gave the noble baron (King) credit
for hies good intentions in taking the course he thought best for gain.
ing his suds ; still he (Earl Guy) could not approve of the mode ; he
believed that the heads of the Church were as willing as the
noble baron, or any of their lordships, to correct existing abuses in the
church ; he had had many conversations on the subject with Right Re-
verend Prelates, and he could assure the house, that with respect :o the
tithe question in the first iestance. it was to meet with the closest atten-
tion ; for his own part he should recommend a commutation of tithes,
but to this mode he was apprised of many difficulties; he has seen
the draft of a bill for a commutation of tithes, of which he
ap-
proved; that bill would in due time be laid before the house, by a
Right Reverend Prelate, and he trusted it would be generally ap-
proved of. With respect to pluralities also, the same Right Retie-
, rend Prelate had expressed the most liberal opinions, so the ground
of cemplaint on that had would in some measure be removed. Holding
1 livings in commodes' be disapproved of, but they had become necessary
in a degree from the smallness of the amount received for many of them.
The noble earl defended the clergy of the Church of England from the
charges that had been brought against them ; the church was, perhaps.
never more exemplary than at present, and exceptions ought not to be
urged against it. (Hear.) He called upon his noble friend (Lord
King), if he again addressed the House on the same subject, to do so
by specific ammo.
Lord FARNHAM contended, that tithes ought to be got rid of
altogether.
Lord KING complained that a battery had been opened upon him
hoot all parts of the house ; the Noble Duke opposite (Buckingham),
who seemed in his own person to embody the whole of the Aristoaaff
and Tory parties, had opened upon him like a monstrous bomb,—(a
hash and the Noble Lord beside him (Wynford). like a long Messes
, charged to the muzzle, had also been discharged at hies
King), but it had gone of like a pop-gun—(a laugh)—but as
the Noble Earl (Grey) bad admitted there were abuses in the
and that a measure was in preparation for their correction, he
consent to withdraw his motion partly for the present, and abstain M
future from making any remarks on the subject, at least for a time, ia
the hopes that some beneficial measure would be brought forward by
the heads of the church themselves.
The noble lord's motion, in a modified shape, was then understood to
be put and agreed to.
The bills on their it:shield/is' table were forwarded a stage, and the
hoses adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. Alderman WOODpresented a petition from the parish of war
la-bonne, in favour of the Vestries BBL—Ordered to lie on do NM .
Lord MANDEVILLE presented a petition from Henthisiens for a
general fast.—Ordered to be printed. .
CALL OP on Boum—arrows.
Mr MAXWELLipsee modes that he should move that the bones be
called ova ea the 1111* (lashed of the 18th), the day before that motion
which was of so mush hoportanos to the country. namely, Lad J. Res.
sell's modest is the subject bf Reform.
paspricursous In DUBLIN.
MT. LEADER a petition from Dublin, in favour of a re•
peal of the lagisissfis ustisa, expressing his satisfaction that there had

been an amicable tcnninrtiol. of tbe pt %Aecut,ors in Dublin. He was
sure it would contribute tb prow Au ti.c tranquility of the ccuctr}•.--
Ordered to be printed.