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1

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY 2.
:Counsel were called to upon the pending claim to the Earl-
dom of Marchmont, when Messrs. Wirrusext.t., 13r.ousistAn, and
Bor.:amen, appeared on behalf of Alexander Home, Esq. the
claimant to the tide ; and for the Crown were ranged the AT-
Toentsv-Gattram., and the LORD ADV3CATR and Sot.scrroz-Ge-
VILRAL.fDr Scotland.
Mr. Wrrtnuct.t. then opened the ease, after which two pa-
tents of creation were delivered in by ?dr. Jove Hour, who
deposed' td the correetneis of the copies, which he had transcribed
from die, record books.
Oustaeus Hume Rochfort, Esq. was examined by Mr.
Deocanised al considerable length, respecting the traditicual
Ohfa-
mily evid in favour lai
of the cmant.
The proc- p weft not interrupted till nearly fire, when
the further * was adjourned to another day.
The Dublin Knintiling Hospital MU was brought up from the
House of Commodaby Mr. ELL*. Several other Private Dills
weer alio broUght u and read a first time.
The wa
rd of IIMUFORT brought up a Petition from the
Churchwardens,: ice. of a certain Parish in Somersetshire,
aping tfte eitbak Oahu*.
The Fseri of VIA NET presented a Petition from the Kai-
tarian Dissenters of Kendal, in Westmoreland, praying for an
alteration in the Mirriage Act.
The Dank' of Ittitind Myna read a third time and passed.—

HOUSE OP COMMONS.
The St{, aka took the Chair five minutes before four o'clock.
Mi. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition from Richard
Tyrrell; Esq.-the City Remembrancer, against the London
Water-works Bilk—Laid on the table.
Mr. LA M ETON presented a Petition from the Inhabitants
of Sunderland, praying for a revision of the Criminal Laws.—
Ordered to be printed.
Mr. mAnnyArr presented a Petition from some Mer-
chants of the City of London against the renewal of the West
India Dock Charter.—Laid on the table.
Mr. T. WILSON presented a Petition from the Sugar Re-
finers of the City of London, praying that the Bill, permitting
the West India Sugar Planters to send their produce to dif-
ferent ports of Europe may not pass into a law.
After some conversation, in which Sir W. CURTIS, Sir J. NRW-
!MST, Mr. MARRYATT, Mr. RICARDO, and Mr. BRIGHT, took a
share, the Petition was read, and laid on the table.
Mr. BY NC presented a Petition from the Leather Dealers
of Uxbridge, praying for a repeal of the Leather Tax.—Laid on

the table. -
TREMAYNE presented a Petition from the Inhabit-
ants of Kingsend and Cawsand, near Plymouth, complaining of
the inundations caused by the Breakwater.
After a few observations from Sir 6. Cocramtx and Mr. D.
GILBERT, who said the complaint was rather premature, the Pe-

tition was laid on the table:
Mr. WYNN presented a Petition from certain Inhabitants of
Yorkshire in favour of the Yorkshire Election Poll Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Remora: and Lord NORMANDY,
the Petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUME wished to know when the Returns of the Ex-
penses of Ceylon, the Mauritius, and the lonian Islands might
be expected to be laid upon the table ?
Mr. WIL3IOT said they were in a state of forwardness.
Lord A. HAMILTON presented a Petition from Stirling,
against the Royal Burghs Bill.
After some words from the Marquis of LONDONDIZRY, the Pe-
tition was laid upon the table.
Mr. GRENFELL gave notice that he would to-morrow
move for Copies of all Correspondence which took place be-
tween his Majesty's Government and the Governor of the Bank
of England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that he
should deem it his duty, at the proper time, to lay these Papers

upon the table of the House.
Mr. GRENFELL said. that under these circumstances he
would not press the motion.
The ¶duquis of LONDONDERRY moved for an Address
to his 3lajesty, for the production of all Charges attendant upon
the Diplomatic Embassies, from 1792 to 1821, inclusive • also,
for the same Account respecting Vice-Cons:lls abroad.—Ordered.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY brought up the Papers
so moved for, which were laid upon the table, and ordered to

be printed.
Mr. CREEVEY gave notice that he would, on the 21st inst.
move to obtain a repeal of the Act known by the name of the
Ministerial Pension Bill.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. LOCK II A RT presented a Petition from several Farmers
of the Counties of Suffolk, Sussex, and Gloucester, complaining
of distress, and praying for protecting duties against the importa-
tion of foreign corn. The Hon. Member observed, that the
Petitioners adverted to the propositions of the Hon. Member
for Portarlington ( sir. Ricardo), which recommended that fo-
reign wheat now warehoused, might be permitted to go to the
market under a duty of 15s. per quarter, when British wheat
got up to 655. per quarter, and that foreign wheat might be im-
ported under a duty of 20s. when British wheat exceeded 70s.
per quarter. He had no hesitation in saying that those proposi-
tions, if carried, would bring absolute ruin on the landed in-
terests of the country, merely for the benefit of a few speculators
in foreign corn.
Mr. RICARDO said, that there was nothing at all deceptive
in his propositions.
Sir T. LETIIIIRT DOE said, he differed entirely from the
views of the Honourable Member fur I'ortarlington. Neither
the Resolutions of the Noble Marquis nor of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman t Mr. Iluskisson), nor the Honourable Member
for Portarlington, In his opinion, held out a prospect of relief to
the farmer. Under these circumstances he should feel it his
duty to lay on the table another series of Resolutions, which in
his opinion would give adequate protection to the farmer, and
the House and the country must make up their minds to that
object. Ile might be told that the duties he was about to pro-
pose were too high, but he would not be driven from the attempt
eten by the fear of having but few to concur with him.
Mr. HUME was happy to find that the House would be in
possession at last of the opinions of the Agricultural Body them-
selves, as to the means of relief, through the medium of one of
those Members who were usually styled Country Gentlemen.—
Ile trusted that the Honourable Baronet would lay his Resolu-
tions on the table that night, in order to allow an opportunity
of having them considered by Members before the general
discussion took place.
Mr. W. BURRELL considered the amount of the Protect-
ing Duties laid down in the Resolutions of the Noble Marquis
too low, considering the eirconatances under which foreign corn
could be introduced into this country. It had come to his know-
ledge that day, that the freight of wheat to this country was
3s. CA of barley Is. 3d. and of oats 9d.
After a few words from Mr. LOCKHAAT, the Petition was
laid on the table.
Mr. COKE presented two Petitions from two Hundreds In
Norfolk, complaining of distress.—Laid on the table.
)lr. DENISON presented a Petition from a Gentleman of
the name of Taylor, complaining of the ruin brought on his clr-
curnstantes by the alteration in the value of the currency. He
set forth, that he was the proprietor of estates in Hertfordshire,
llerefordsbire, and Sussex ; that he had invested in them a suns
of 2150,000, and that, after the alteration of the currency and
the change of times, he was compelled to mortgage them for
.2C60,900. The mortgagee had foreclosed, and the estates were
now 'tend for half what he gave for them. He had purchased
thise estates at a period when the guinea was sold for 265. The
liOn. Member dwelt forcibly on the facts of the Petition, and
concluded by observing that the consequence of the present dif-
Acuities must be, that the landlord must abandon his estates, the
tenant become a serf, and the new proprietor a trustee for taxa-
tion and pauperism.
Mr. Servant ONSLOW said, he did not think the complaint
at those much to toe attended to, who stated themselves to be
aggrieved immediately by the alteration of the currency, for
every man who made a contract during the time when the cur-
rency- was in an unnatural state of depression, must have ex-
pected at some time or another that it would be restored to a
sound state.
Mr. WESTERN begged that the House would attend to
the fact now before theta—that an Hon. and Learned Gentle.
man, habitually a supporter of Ministers, adverted to a period
when the currency was in au unnatural state ; and yet in that
very same year aid the House of Commons pass a Resolution,
stating that a pound note and a shilling were equal in vt.lue to a
guinea--(Cheers). He believed that the Hun. acid Learned
tieutlentan was amongst the majority on that occasion—(Mr.
herjeant Onslow said he was not then in Parliament).—lle
would contend, that every wan who stood in the encomiums

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had been coMeDitted u hilt. It ttia net a few that had to
woopout• dome/wore *Wens and thelliNbil Who were vie-
dins to delatostrausiltsd fraudulent iiiitbure, •
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Mr. BROUOHAM said. that his Hen. Friend had
did
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fleeted on the Parliament of 1811 ; but his censure did not go
far enough. He might ha* remembereid that this House, on
the 13th of May, 1811, neared that a Pound nate sad a shilling
were not in themselves, but in public estimation equivalent to a
guinea ; and that same mouse did, within two short months,
pass, by an equal majority, a Bill to punish by fine and litoptison-
ment the man wko should take less than twenty shillings for a.
pound note. So that they had a Resolution in May, declaring that
in public estimation a auk-note was worth twenty shillings, and
that in two months after, that House—(be spoke not of the pre.
sent House—Go' forbid he should place himself in such jeo-
pardy as to its vengeance, as ti speak his opinion of the present
House !)—but that House with the knowledge that at the very
time the note was worth but fourteen shillings—(too much in-
deed for their dirty rag !)--they passed an Act--they clothed
themselves in a spirit of repentance, in the white sheet of au Act
of Parliament, compelling the Public tp take it for 20s. If ever
conduct so completely stultified the actors as this, he would be
content to respect the Parliament of 1811.
Mr. MONCK said, the condition of the Petitioner was a
frightful instance of the mischiefs attending any tampering with
the currency. Any man who had embarked his capital in the
iurcbase of land at the time when paper was depreciated, was
now half ruined ; and if his purchase left half the purchase-money
on mortgage, he was quite ruined ' • for what he had paid was ir-
recoverable, and the estate might now be foreclosed for the
mortgage money. The Member for Portarlington thought the
difference occasioned by the resumption of cash payment was
only nine or ten per cent. but he (Mr. Mooch) believed It to be
not less than from thirty-See to fifty per cent. The price of gold
bad no more to do with the question than the price of snuff, or
any other commodity—( A laugh). He, however, distinctly
begged to be understood as approving of the Act of 1819. He
felt grateful to his Majesty's Ministers for that messurei and.
thought the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) who had brought
it forward was entitled to the thanks of the country.
Mr. RICARDO said, that in his calculations on the effect of
the Bill of 1819, he had always referred to prices as they were at
the time of the passing of that measure. He could not think,
however, that by any calculation the difference caused by the
Act in question could be shewn to amount to 50 per cent.
Mr. MONCK said, that an those were mistaken who esti-
mated the extent of the depreciation by the value of gold only.
Mr. ELLICE said, there was one fact more extraordinary
than all, and which ought not to be passed unnoticed. It was,
that in the year IBIS, when the amount of Bank-notes in circu-
lation was greater than in any year during the war, there being
then a circulation of Bank-notes of not less than thirty millions,
and the amount of the country bankatotes was great hi propon.
tion, the market-price of gold was £3. 185.6 d.
Mr. RICARDO observed, it was clear that the value of
money was not to be measured by the price of gold, but by the
currency; for an alteration in the value of money, and an alter.
ation in the value of the currency, were two different things. If
we regulated our currency by any particular standard, we must
be subject to all the alterations of that standard.
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
DISTREBS.—EXTENSION OF TilE BANE CHARTER.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented a Petition from
the Landholders and Tradesmen of one of the Hun-
dreds of Somersetshire, complaining generally of
distress, and praying for a reduction of taxation.—
The Hon. Baronet stated that the Petition came from
a part which was once considered the richest of the
county. He agreed with the Petitioners, that, un-
less some effectual reduction of taxes were made, the
present unexampled distress of the country could not
be alleviated. With regard to the plans lately-pro-
posed by his Majesty's Ministers, and more especially
that which related to chartering Country Banks, he
augured no great relief from them, for, in truth,
there was no complaint as to the circulation of Conn-
try Bank-notes. He was afraid the primary conse-
quence of these measures would be to give to the
Bank of England a continuance of its monopoly,
without doing anything for public benefit. Being
upon the subject, he could not help saying that he
thought it a little odd that the Right Hon. Gentle.
man (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) should pro-
pose to the Bank to renew their Charter eleven years
before it expired--(Hear, hear).—He had great con-
fidence in that Right Hon. Gentleman, and he hoped
therefore no definite arrangement upon so important
a question would be come to, until the whole had
been submitted to Parliament. ,
Mr. GItENFELL said be was glad the extension
of the Charter to the Bank had been touched upon
by the Hon. Baronet, as it gave him an opportunity
of calling upon the House to pay the greatest atten-
tion to that measure. For his part, he could not
consider it otherwise than as a most partial—most
unwise, hasty, and unjust one—(Hear,
was on Tuesday night, for the first time, that he
(Mr. Grenfell) heard of this plan from the ltight
Hon. Gentleman, who then stated that it was his
intention to renew the Charter, without any stipula-
tion whatever. The same opinion was avowed this
day by the Right Hon. Gentleman and a Noble Lord,
in their communication to a Bank Court, which was
held this day. It was stated that, upon no other
condition but the allowing of Charters to Country
Banks, the Charter to the Bank of England would
be renewed fur ten years, after the present Charter
expired. It was clear, therefore, that no restrictions
were imposed, or reservations made. The Bank
were of course pleased with the measure, for they
could not be otherwise, and a Learned Gentleman
congratulated the Court of Proprietors upon the very
favourable terms which they obtained. But he (Mr.
Grenfell) deplored that such a measure had been
conceded by his Majesty's Government. Ile had
hoped that, after the experience which the country
had of the enormous sacrifices which they were
obliged to make, in consequence of the immense ex-
pense brought upon them by this monopolizing body
—after seeing the tyranny which it exercised over
Government itself—after seeing that it abrogated
one of the greatest benefits which :t could bestow
upon the commercial world, by still refusing to dis-
count at four per cent.—(a measure that would give
incalculable relief)—that, after all these, his Ala
jesty's Ministers would not have had the temerity to
concede a renewal of this odidus monopoly. He
called upon the House to interpose its authority, and
put a stop to this negociation. For his own pail, he
looked upon it with alarm, and he now gave noticei
that he would oppose the extension of the Charter to
the Bank, under any circumstance.
Mr. J. SMITH said he had no disposition to enter
into a debate upon a question which was not before
the House. He only wished to say that, there being
a variety of reports upon the renewal of the Charter
to the Bank, he did not give an entire credence to
them all; and he would advise Members to be
equally cautious. One thing he was almost persua-
ded of—he could hardly think that Government had
made these concessions to the Bank fur nothing—
(l/ear, hear).—But he lose to observe upon a remark
hich fell horn the lion. 51c4er for Penryn (Mr.


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• •
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Grenfesll).•4le had state& that WU part of the plan
to charter Country Banks. New be r. smith) did
not recollect that the Noble Marquis stated any in-
rEntion of erecting such establishments; and, in effect,
hebelieved, that it was not intended to do so. He
believed that the establishments proposed would be
an association of bankers for different purposes. He
mentioned this merely to disabuse the public Mind,
as a contrary impression might be productive of
some bad effects.
Mr. HUSKISSON said he was obliged to protest
against this premature discussion of questions of the
first magnitude upon every light occasion, and with-
out formal notice. This practice was neither good,
as it regarded the economy of the time of the House,
nor just towards the measures themselves, inasmuch
as they would not receive a due share of attention.
Surely when a particular day was fixed for discussing
a measure, why not wait till that day, and not anti-
cipate it by premature and irrelevant observations.
If every proposition in the speech of the Noble Mar-
quis was to be referred to on the presenting of every
Petition, the House would never have done, and the
busineis for which it met each day would never be
gone through. It was a practice which had increased
greatly of late, but he hoped Hon. Members would
see the propriety of suffering the stated business of
I the day to come on at a regular hour.
Mr. CREEVEY rose to protest, in his turn, against
the doctrine laid down by the Right Hon. Gentle-
man. It was said that questions should not be brought
in without notice ; but did he forget that the cloctt ine
of giving notice was of a very recent origin? For-
merly no notice was given, and indeed it seemed the
most Constitutional mode, of stating grievances upon
the presenting of Petitions—(Hear, hear).—lt was
certainly convenient for Ministers, to whose ears
grievances were unpleat,ing, to fix a particular day
for the discussion of a particular question, and have
done with it. This was not the way, however, to deal
fairly with the country. The true way of discussing
evils, was to discuss them often ; and surely there
never was an occasion which challenged such a dis-
cussion more than the presenting of this Petition,
upon which the Hon. Baronet very properly made
such remarks as seemed to him to arise out of it.—

He hoped other Gentlemen would follow his exam-
ple, and that they would state their opinions openly
and broadly, feeling that they exercised a right, not
that they were abusing a courtesy granted to them
by the Right HonouraLle Gentleman and his Col-
leagues—(clear, hear).
Mr. HUME said, that it would be well if the Right
Hon. Gentleman bad considered a little, before he
attacked the Hon. Baronet for broaching a question
without notice. Let him ask his Right Hon. Friend
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) whether he had
given notice of his plan respecting,the Bank, or whe-
ther he had not in that respect dealt unfairly with
the House, by taking it by surprise ?—(Hear, hear).
The great complaint on all hands—indeed the bur-
den of the objection to the Bank affair was, that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer had taken so important
a step as extending the Bank Charter, without giving
notice of his intention to this House—(Hear, hear).—
The effect of the Right Hon. Gentleman's conduct
was this—that as Parliament, at least many in that
House, were willing at all events to make good his
(the Chancellor's) pledges, good or bad, they were
thus prematurely committed to support a measure
upon which they were as yet but partially informed. '
And by thus anticipating the expiration of the Bank
Charter, the Right Hon. Gentleman had tied up the
hands of future Chancellors of the Exchequer, and
prevented them from reducing taxes, and making
the currency available to the public service to the
amount of two millions. There were yet eleven years
to run of the Charter, and a great many changes
might take place in that time—(Hear).—He hoped
the landed Gentlemen would oppose themselves to
this plan, and that they would not lose the opportu-
nity of placing two millions yearly to the credit of
the public service. He had mentioned this sum, be-
cause he was persuaded, that if an establishment si-
milar to the Bank was set up, under the patronage
of this House, the sum stated would be gained as
well in the management of the debt, as in the other
transactions with Government—(Hear).
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
he had no intention of entering upon the discussion of
the Bank question, which was of great importance, in-
cidentally. He could not, however, suffer the remarks
made by some Honourable Members opposite, re-
ferring more immediately to himself, to pass unan-
swered. He had been accused of not dealing fairly
with the House, as to the renewal of the Charter of
the Bank without giving notice. But he would ap-
peal to the House, whether he could or ought to
mention the matter in Parliament, until he had first
consulted with the Bank Directors, and ascertained
how far they favoured the scheme, as without their
consent it would be nugatory ?—(Hear, hear). A ne-
gociation was accordingly opened with the Bank, in
the first instance; and as it was now terminated, the
House would, in a little time, be enabled to bring its
judgment to bear upon the whole question. It would
be his duty to submit all the documents to the House,
and it would rest with them to ratify or annul the
steps which had been taken. He had no wish to an-
ticipate the decisions of Parliament; but he wished
to remind them, that it seemed advisable upon all
hands to regulate the circulation of Country Bank
notes, and certainly there was no question more im-
portant. It was desirable to increase the issue of
one pound country notes upon good security, which
last object could only be obtained by associated Com-1
panics of Bankers upon an extensive scale; but to
obtain this, it was necessary to make some terms
with the Bank of England, as their Charter formed
a bar to the erection of such Companies ; and these
extended to the renewed issue of one pound notes.—
But how to obtain this adequate security to the Pub-
lic from Country Bankers, was still a question ofl
great difficulty. Of late years, very great losses had
been sustained by the failure of Country Banks, and
Parliament was called upon to adopt some means of
preventing like occurrences in future. To effect this,
two modes presented themselves: one was to require
from all such Banks a deposit of capital equal to the
amount of notes which they might issue, and the
other to establish Banks upon the principle of so
much capital being embarked as would protect the
Public against all tear of failure. The only way of
accomplishing the latter, was to admit a large num-
ber into the Company, upon the plan of the Banks
in Scotland. That the system of bankinz in Scot-

I

!land was Much superior tu'ihat 6f tliis comstry, there
could not be a dtlubti for in 1798, when upwards of
SOO Banks in England stopped 'payment, there was
not a single failure in Scotland. This fact shewed
the superiority of the Scottish system. Aar:lit-could
not be said that this failure arose from a scarcity pe
gold ; for the country was then full of gold, and the
restrictions upon the Bank of England had not yet
been imposed. It was dear, therefore, thatlioweeee
much gold was in circulation, the Public weregioe
the more secure from the failure of Country Banks.
The present plan would, . after the example of Scot.
land, let in so many capitalists to the concern, that
failure was impossible. There had been but three
failures in Scotland during a century, and of these
two paid off fully, and the third made sornefair term%
'But to set up these Banks, as he said before, it sv;:s
ilecessary to obtain from the Bank of England some
relaxation of their charter ; and as the measure was
wanted immediately, Government had thought fit 4
by the l'.ank foregoing their right for the eleven years
to come, to propose to them a renewal of the charter
at that time, when their Charter would expire. This
was the outline of the plan, but the particulars lie
would be able to state in a few days. He had
difficitlti, however, in saying that the sank had given
no pecuniary consideratien whatever for the terms
which were made with them. With regard to the
question of management of the Debt, and the other
transactions between the Bank and Government, it
would be open to Parliament, when the Charter
had expired, to revise all these particulars. They
would not be included in the renewal of the Charter
to the Bank. Thus had Government, to gain an
im-
mediate advantage, certainly anticipated the expira-
tion of the Bank Charter; because, without making
terms with the Bank, the other measure could not be
carried.. When, however, the statement was laid be.
fore Parliament, it would be seen that Govertuneat,
had not been remiss in imposing such restrictions as
would secure the circulation of Country Bank-notes
upon a sate and solid foundation—(Hear, hair).
Mr. MANNING defended the conduct oldie Bank
Directors, and complained of the disposition to attack
the Bank, which prevailed upon every occasion with
certain Gentlemen in that House.
Mr. ELLICE said it was quite unnecessary to vin-
dicate the Bank Directors, for no blame e,,tlid be
imputed to them for having made the best bargain
they could for the proprietors. This House would,
however, be to blame if it did not attend to the terms
of this bargain, and see that the interests of the Pub-
lic were not compromised in them—Wear, hear).—
What he complained of was, that the Right ti-uour-
able Gentleman (the Chancellor of the I.xihequer)
had given the go-by to the main question, and so had
a Noble Lord in another place. The Right fl.nottr-
able Gentleman had pledged himself that he would
not again bring on this question without submitting
the matter to Parliament—(Hear, Bear).—%% ith re-
gard to the good that was to result from it, it ap-
peared to him that as there was no complaint respect-
ing the circulation of Country Bank-notes, any alter-
ation in them could do no great good.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY wished to know whether, in
the proposed plan, any deposit was required.frc m
the bankers?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER re-
plied in the negative. He stated, that this was one
of the modes of establishing Country Banks on a se-
cure basis; but the other mode had been found more
practicable, and as the property of all concerned was
answerable, it was not deemed necessary to ihsist
upon any deposit of capital.—Petition brought up.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE, in moving that it be laid
upon the table, said nothing that lie had heard to-
night, though coming front so high a quarter as the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hu:lemon), shculd
deter him from speaking his mind upon every griev-
ance which it became his business to gate to this
House upon presenting a Petition.
The Petition was then read, laid upon the table,
and ordered to be printed.
JOINT POSTMASTERS.GENERAL.

th
to

Lord NORMANBY said, that he rose on the pre-
sent occasion with less embarrassment than he did
when last he called the notice of the House to that
question. If it stood solely on the same grounds as
on the former occasion, he could hardly think of em-
ploying their time for the purpose of coming to the
same conclusion. He now felt that he had stronger
claims, not only arising from the arguments of those
who joined him in opinion, but from those of his op-
ponents—arguments which had been rendered the
theme of conversation from one end of the kingdom
to the other, and which had been alluded to at every
public meeting. That argument was founded on the
necessity of supporting the influence of the Crown-
-(Hear). It was to those Hon. Members who ad-
vanced it that he owed this novelty in Lcnstitutienal
doctrine, that useless places should be kept up indis-
criminately for the purpose of upholding the intl.:-
ence of the Crown—(Hear,hear). Innovations more
dangerous than these tenets never had bcea
duced to that House—they were far more so thaa
any proposition of his. He considered that the or:;.;
was placed on those who introduced then in open: •
tion to his motion, and not upon him or his friends ;It
making any attempt at the alteration of existing law..
With regard to the more weighty arguments whic,
had been made use of, a great reliance was placed
on the antiquity of this specific office. if it had Off'
ginated even in the time of Queen Anne, there wen:
many other Acts equally venerable, equally to be
respected on that ground, which had been deemed
unnecessary, and had been repealed by that House.
Another argument was founded en the great increaa;
of business at the Post Office. It might be will madc
use of if his motion was for a reduction of Mr. ties,
iing's salary, or those of the clerks at pre•ent
ployed ; but how it could affect the two, NAlenxi)
in question, who have so little to do with the dec.!;:'
of the office, and were not aXected by its iocre.t,ect
business, he was at a loss to know. On the la-t de-
bate on the question, a Noble Lord had sp kca
tone of declamation of the rash innovation
to be introduced by the measure. But he seta: d cos:
fidently appeal to the House, who was really the to.i
innovator ? On that night the Noble Marquis (Len-
donderry) did not seem to be aware that Lord Mr:
catty had been a Joint Postmaster-General, and hi'
introduction of the question of responsibility seemed
to be merely an ad caplanduns argument. It ti.e; re;
ferred to the Bill which had been introduced iii 181--
and received the sanction of the House in 1813. they
would find the principle he at present advocated there

enforced. lie alluded to the Bill for tegnl*ting the •
office of Paymaster-General. Ht would appeal to
the Pon. Gentlemen Who had supported the measure,
could they with reason oppose a reduction, the prin-
ciple 01 which was then conceded? He would take
that opportunity of stating, with regard to the office
.f Postmasters in Ireland, that if the present ques-
tion WAi carried the other would follow as a matter
of course. Before he returned to attack the strong
bold of the Gentlemen opposite, that of the influence
of the Crown.—(Hear)—he would beg to say a few I
words by way of appeal to those who seemed waver-
ing in their adhesion to the opposition of that doc-
trine. He trusted that they would not now shrink
from the performance of their duty to the country,
and that they would notbe betrayed into an approval
of the wished-for influence, by any attempts to work
upon their fears—( Hear, hear).—An Hon. Gentle-
titan opposite had strongly alluded to him in the last
debate, hut he defied him, on the present occasion,
to magnify him into the bugbear into which he had
then classed him (Lord Normanby) as one of a trio.
He would ILA the supporters of the reduction of the
Lords of the Admiralty, if they wished to carry the
extent of their savings to that of only 2,0001. a-year,
would they vote for that reduction only, and oppose
all others ? Ile put it to them, would it not. have
been better to have carried this question in the first
elan in the fitzh year? It must be eventually car-
ried ; the public voice had been fully expressed upon
the subject, and would continue to demand it. The
arguments and the conduct of some Ilon.Gentlemen
resembled only the last shifts of old and ruined spend,
minis, to maintain their acquaintance with those
people who had been termed .‘ Gentlemen of another
persuasion," and who were well versed in all the
mysteries of X. Y. Z.—(Cheers and laughter).—He
only asked them to forego the superfluous luxury—
(Cize,,rsj—of a double Postmaster-General—( Hear,
and a laugh).—He would ask if the influence of the
Crown was not sufficiently supported? Was it not'
strenOiened by an over grown establishment—by an
immense national debt, and by our Colonial relations?
hea)).—Those who would advance too far
the influence of the Crown, only contributed to make
the people jealous of the House, who seemed to pre-
serve a total apathy to their feelings, and were only
careful to defend the least encroachment on the pri-
siiege of the Crown. The public discontent was
rotorious; by skilful means its progress might be
directed, but by stopping its course its power was
aggravated and its extent enlarged. He trusted that
t;ey would not, by the rejection of his motion, so
detach from them the lingering affections of the
people and their last confidence in the House—(Hear,
hear).—He concluded by moving—
" That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, re-
presenting that his Majesty's faithful Commons, relying on the
gracious disposition of his Majesty (as expressed in his answers
to former Addresses of that House), to concur in all such meal,
sures as the exigencies of the times may require, and in such
reductions in the civil departMents of the State, as may be con-
sistent with the due performance of the public service, humbly
pray that his Majesty will be graciously pleased to give direc-
tions that the office of one of the Postmasters-General be abo-'
lislied, and the salary of the office thereby saved to the Public."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that he trusted the British Public would ever judge
with caution of the proceedings of that House ; and
that Parliament would pursue its course of propriety
uninfluenced by any apprehension of public opinion.
lie hoped that it would ever decide on a fair investi-
gation of each question, and not by an anxiety to
secure mere popularity. He complained that appeals
of that nature were too frequently brought before the
House, and mixed up with many questions most un-
necessarily. Though the Noble Lord had, by vary-
ing the terms of his motion, complied with the regu-
lation of the House, it was not fair to bring before it,
in the same Session, a question which had been dis-
posed of. If such a practice was to prevail, it would
retard the business of the House, and interrupt the
progress of the business essential to the country.—
The Noble Lord had carefully abstained from enter-'
ing into the actual merits of the question he had
brought forward—(hear, hear).—He had avoided
repeating the arguments which bad been advanced
before, and which were so ably refuted—( hear, hear);
and applied himself wholly to declamation on the in-
fluence of the Crown. Both the Postmasters-General
were jointly responsible for the duties of their office.
Be could not think it right to place under the con-
troul of one person an office which received two mil-
lions of gross revenue annually. However high the
rank or the character of that individual might be, he
could not agree to have such an office placed under
his single controul. It was one of such extensive
detail—he might say, such great machinery—that it
resembled an immense manufactory. It could not be
placed with security under a single authority. The
question was before the Committee of 1797 s and they
then rejected it. It was merely if the office should be
intrusted to the care of four or five Gentlemen of in-
ferior rank, or to two Noblemen of high dignity ?
He considered there were many sound reasons to pre-
fer the present arrangement. The question at that
moment could not be decided without peculiar incon-
venience, as there was an inquiry now in progress
into all the details of the business of the Post Office.
When the result 'was laid heft), e the House -they
would have a much better opportunity of judging on
the question than at present. The subject had en-
gaged the peculiar attention of the Treasury. He
trusted that they would not undertake to decide the
question until that information was laid before them.
Mr. BANK ES said that the examination alluded
to could only affect the question of the details of the
Post-office, and nat the management of the highest
department. The Committee of 1797 had referred
it to the House to put the Office under the controul
of a Board similar to the Boards of other depart-
tnents. Lord Colchester had• presided at that Com-
mittee. From the experience he had of the manner
in which the business was conducted, he would be
'sorry to see it put into a more expensive mode, which
he considered that of a Board would be. lie kit
that a considerable saving might be made in the prin-
ciple of the department by carrying the present mo-
tion. lie was not favourable to the joint responsibi-
lity of this office, or that of any other. He recol-
lected the case of two persons who were employed,
in a joint trust as minor storekeepers. One of them
became ill, the other was intrusted with the key; he
rt;ht;esi the till, and ran away with the money—
(Load citNas and laughing).--He was very far indeed
from to either of the Noble Lords the
of such an accident—(hcar, hear).--He only
alluded to that case to spew how absurd the idea of

et
ry
re

• •

.
. .

this Joint responsibility set,.
that case the same principle as ,
of 1812 and 1813, which regulated
Paymaster•Generth Thoog10"
President of the Board of Cornrow
he saw the present President,
in 1813, when he had the honour
tion that all sinecure offices
He recollectea to have had then
the Right Honourable the Chancellor
chequer, and of the Commissioner
Forests (Mr. Huskisson).—Now
Mernbet who then voted for
office not detrimental to the
oppose the motion of the Nobi
Why should they alter their opii
in the circumstances of the
should make them shrink from a ddty which they
then thought imperative, or whether the finances of
the country had since become so prosperous as to ren-
der any diminution of the expenditure unnecessary?
If it were then admitted that the expenses of the civil;
Government of the country, ar.d the number of per-
sons employed, should be reduced as low as pos. lible
(which he believed was the substance of his motion),
he did not know anything that occurred since that
period which ought to prevent the same decision now,
and on that principle was the present motion entitled
to -the support of-that House. The abolition of one of
these offices of Postmaster-General would by no
means contravene the motion which had been made
last year. If the House did not wish to afford an
argument for Reform—if they wished to shew that
Parliament was adequate, in its present constitution,
to the performance of its function's, and that it was
disposed to sympathize with the People, he did not
know an instance in which they'had a better oppor-
tunity, than by voting for the reduction of the office.
—ln expressing a sincere wish that all sinecures
should be abolished, he recollected having been asked
by a Gentleman what sinecures remained after the re-
ductions that had taken place ? and he replied, this
office of Postmaster-General only. Ile knew that it
had been maintained that no offiCe should be abo-
lished because the infleence of the Crown in that
House ought to be upheld; but to such a principle
he could not give his assent. Even if such a prin-
ciple were maintained, there was no office which
could be abolished with less detriment to the Crown
than the office of Postmaster-General. Ileheartily re-
commended the consideration of this question to the
House. It was, in his opinion, utterly impossible to
defend it, if Parliament shewed any disposition to
adopt a principle of sound economy or a conciliating
' spirit. Thus thinking, he advocated the abolition of
this office, and he entreated any of those Members
who voted with him in 1812 and 1813 to vote with
him on the present occasion.
Mr. HUSKISSON rose in consequence of the al-
lusion which had been made to him and a Right
Hon. Friend of his who was then absent from indis-
position. His Right Hon. Friend was present when
the question was last before the House, and he re-
gretted that the Right Hon. Gentleman had not then
offered what he had to say on this subject, as his
Hon. Friend would have vindicated better than he
could hope to do, the vote which he had given against
the motion of the Noble Lord. Whatever imputa-
tion might be against him (Mr. Huskisson) for
changing his conduct now, seeing that he was one of
the Ministers of the Crown, would not apply to his'
Right Hon. Friend, and on that account he regretted'
that he had not been called upon when the motion
was last before them, to explain why he had with-
held from it that support which he had not thought
it right to give. He must beg to fill up the history
of the measures which had been named with some
particulars at which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
stopped short. The Right Ho% Gentleman had la-
boured for some years to abolish sinecures and enable
the Crown to recompense meritorious service in other
ways. Having failed in 1812 and 1813, he in 1817
was so fortunate as to succeed in a great measure in
accomplishing the object which he had in view. But
it was then determined by the Committee which sat
on this subject that the situation of Postmaster-Gene-
ral was not one of those which ought to be aim-
Ilished. He had understood the Right Honourable
Gentleman to be satisfied, or nearly so, with the
Bill which then passed, and he considered the ar-
' rangement then made to be binding on both parties.
The office in question was not inadvertently passed
over, but it had been left as one which ought to re-'
main in the hands of the Crown to reward public
men. He did not mean to argue that the Right Hon.
Gentleman and the House were by that arrangeMent
precluded froth dealing with the situation as they
might think proper; but this he contended, that those
who had favoured the measure of the Right Hon.
Gentleman in 1812 and 1813, might change their
course after the arrangement of 1817, without being
justly liable to be charged with inconsistency. He
proceeded to shew the utility of dividing the duty of
the Postmaster-General's office between two respon-
sible individuals, but stated that measures had been
taken, pursuant to the Address of that House at the
close of the last Session, to investigate the affairs of
the Post Office, in common with the other depart-
ments of the Government. He thought to commit
this subject to a Parliamentary inquiry, must be
satisfactory to the House, and in this way they would
best follow up the Address which had been voted.—
He therefore hoped the House would not so far de-
part from the spirit of that Address, as to agree with
the present motion. The course which he had de-
fended, lie insisted, was most in conformity with the
Address of the Right Hon. Gentleman, and it was
because he preferred following that-Right Hon. Gen-
tleman to following the Noble Lord, that he opposed
the present motion.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT said he thought the line of ar-
gument pursued that night was more insulting and
degrading to the House than any discussion wnich
lie recollected since he sat as a Member of Parliament.
Ile should be the last man in the House to diminish
the just iniiaence of the Crown; but he really thought
that the introduction of a reference to it, on the pre-,
sent occasion, tended to degrade the higher classes,
of political people. To say that the offices of Post-
master-General were necessary to support the great
lidluence of the Crown, was, in other words, to say,
that some Peers (for the places were always held by
Peers), with great !listen ical names, of which the
country had reason to be proud, required 3,0001.,
a-year to do their duty to their Sovereign and coun-
try—(Year, hear).—lu this way, as well as a question

people,and who had travelled in all directions to spread
disaffection. and endeavoured to prevail on those
who attended them to give such instructions to their
Representatives as should send them bound hand and
foot into that House. When Parliament met, the
effects of this were but too apparent. Every day'
notices were given for the repeal of this, that, and
'tother tax. On one day it was moved that two Lords
of the Admiralty should be done away with ; on the
next, that the situation of one of the Postmasters-Ge-

neral.should be abolished ; so that it appeared to him
a general attack was about to be made on the finances
and institutions of the country. It was not at such a
time that he would give any vote but that which be
'had given, and now proposed to give. He, however,
begged to say,. that should he again meet the Right
Hon. Gentleman in a Committee like that in which

he (Mr. Bankes) had paid him the compliment of
saying he had zealously laboured in order to relieve
'the country, he would find him as ardent and sincere
in the cause as ever. He should vote this night as
he had done before, and he should not do so with less
satisfaction because he knew it to be the intention of

the Chancellor of the Exchequer in some way or other
to put this department in the way of revision.
Mr. H. BRIGHT totally differed from the last

speaker, and thought the House fully as competent
jo decide on this question as any Parliamentary Com-
mission could be.

Mr. TREMAYNE spolti in support of the motion.
Mr. S. WORTLEY said, when this subject was last
before the House, he did not find himself at liberty
to deal with it as'a simple question, whether or not
one of the Postmasters-General should be removed.

—The day before a motion had been carried for re-
moving certain public officers, and on the succeeding
day a mmion was to be made against the whole body
of another establishment. He saw that a great delu-
sion prevailed, and knowing that such measures could
not in the slightest degree remove the existing dis-
tress, he had hesitated to give his support to the
motion; and he rejoiced that he had not been drawn
away to vote for it at the moment. He thought it
to be necessary that the Crown should exercise consi-
derable influence in that House. He did not wish it

to possess more than it ought to exercise; but, at the
same time, he did not desire to strip it of this attri-
bute. Now he felt himself at liberty to view the
question as a single one, and he was of opinion that
they might be justified in giving way to the extent
to which the motion proposed to go. They were blind
indeed who did not see that the great body of the
people had been disabUsed. Nobody believed that
such a motion could relieve the existing distress.—
Looking at it as a single question, he was not satis-
fied with the defence of the office which had been set
up by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and therefore
he was ready to vote for its abolition. If, however,
it was proposed to refer the subject to a Parliamen-
tary Commission, it might be well that the House
should wait for the inquiry ; but if the question were
now pressed aye" or no," whether there should be
one or two Postmasters-General, he should say 4, aye"
for the present motion.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had heard
nothing in the course of the present debate to alter
the view which he had formerly taken of this subject.
He considered the office to be one which, both in a
financial and political point of view, it was desirable
to keep up. It was, however, for the House to de-
cide on this with reference to the opinion of an indi-
vidual. He shewed that the inquiries which had taken
place in former years, had led to results favourable
to retaining two Postmasters-General. In 1817, the
final decision of the Committee which then sat was,
that this office was not one which ought to be re-
garded as a sinecure. The recommendation con-
tained in the Address of last Session had been already
acted upon as far as it could be acted upon by a
Treasury minute, and further inquiry was intended.
The Hon. Member for Yorkshire admitted it to be ne-
cessary that the Crown should exercise some influence
in that House. But how he came to the conclusion
that that influence, which he regarded as desirable
and necessary, that patronage of the Crown, which he
thought necessary when the subject was last before
the House' less required support now than it did then ;
and why those considerations which influenced Li.
manly vote on that occasion, should now cease to
operate on his mind he was wholly at a loss to con-
jecture. He begged that the House would allow
him to call its attention to the strict situation of the
question. He requested that they would look at
the words of the Address to the Crown of last Ses-
sion, to which his Honourable Friend ought certainly •
to owe some deference, as it was his own Address.—
It prayed, 66 That his Majesty would be most gra-
ciously pleased to direct a minute investigation into
the mode of managing and collecting the several
branches of the Revenue." The Treasury had done
this, and Parliamentary Commissioners had been ap-
pointed to make the specified investigations. lie
would ask, then, was his Honourable Friend, or was
the Parliament, prepared to contend that the Post-
masters-General should be reduced, without first
ascertaining the opinion of the Commissioners as to
their necessity or utility? If they were not acting
In the mere spirit of the day, without giving consi-
deration to the acts they proposed to do—if their ob-
ject was fairly to weigh-whetber one or two Post-
masters General were necessary, they would leave it
to the Parliamentary Commissioners first to give
them information upon that point. Here, indeed, he
wished to join issue with his Honourable Friend, the
Member for Yorkshire, but he could not take the
issue which he had proposed. He was perfectly pre-
pared to pledge himself that the office should come,l
with as little delay as possible, before the attention of
the Commissioners. He therefore thought that his

gi\
their support of the Government on all occasions,
whether right or wrong (Near, hear).—The`teiti.
ments of the Right Hon. President of the Board of
Controul (Mr. Wynn) had totally changed with the,
side of the House on which be had 'been accustomed
to vote, and, from that change of sentiments, it- was •
for the House to judge whether he had accepted
I office, because he agreed with Government; or *be-
tber he agreed with Government because he had cc.
cepted office—(Hear, hear).—He should support the
elation, because he felt it peculiarly incumbent upon
the House, in the present times, to be careful of its
character, and to endeavour, by all just and honour-
'able means, to secure the respect and affection of
the People.
Sir F. BLAKE thought, that if the House really
understood the true state of the country; they would
carry every motion for retrenchment by acclamation.
His Majesty's Ministers were not willing to give the
Hon. Member for Montrose his due share of credit ;
but in his (Sir F. Blake's) opinion, that Hon. Mem-
ber had done more good for the country than all his
Majesty's Ministers put together--(Hear, hear}.--He
should therefore say to that Honourable Member (Mr.
Hume), "Go on, and prosper!" He cordially sup-
ported the present motion.
Mr. R. MARTIN condemned the conduct of the
Opposition, which, he contended, was rather dic-
tated by a desire to annoy the Government, than by
any consideration of the abstract merits of the ques-
tion. He did think the admonition of the Right Hon.
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to be a most fair one,
when he told Gentlemen, that if they voted honestly
and fairly, according to their conscience, they need
not be afraid to meet their constituents at any time.
He, for one, was not afraid to meet his; and it was
a proud thing, that•out of the hundred Members sent
from Ireland, very few were found to run from their
decks in the hour of danger, and, like some Honour-
able Members, to leave their quarters and get under
the hatchways—(A laugh).—He called upon the Hon.
Member for Yorkshire to rally his impaired faculties,
and to stick to his quarters manfully ; and if he should
be placarded fur voting for two Postmasters-General,
he would be his second—(Laughter).
Mr. MACDONALD congratulated his Noble
Friend (Lord Normanby) on his having returned to
the charge with a spirit, perseverance, and talent,
which augured well for his public character. Now
that the King's Ministers had had leisure for reflec-
tion, and an opportunity of collecting the opinion of
their country friends, he had felt some curiosity to
see what new shifting course they would adopt; and
that curiosity had been amply gratified by the. turn
which the debate had taken to-night. With the ex-
ception of the Member for Surrey, he believed there
was not a single unofficial person who had ventured
to stand up in his place and justify the vote which
he intended to give against the motion. The tone of
the Noble Lord (Londonderry) was indeed consider-
ably subdued, quantum mutatus ab ilia Hedore !
Where was now his high tone? How had the mighty
fallen since the last debate on this question! Humble
and beaten, and retiring from his former ground,
this mighty champion of the influence of the Crown,
who had once declared, that without this office it
would be impossible to carry on the Governineut of
the country, was now ready to refer to certain Com-
• missioners a question which had been already twice
decided in that House. It bud been said that the
office was a part of the necessary patronage of the
Crown, and therefore, ought not to be touched, but it
was for the House to determine whether that argu-
ment ought to have weight with them. He would
appeal to the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. F. Robin-
son), who had made so strong an appeal on a former
occasion, in favour of the inferior clerks of his own
department, whether he could stand up in his place
and say, that a second Postmaster-General was ne-
cessary ? whether he could say to those clerks, that
they must be sent adrift, but that a duplicate Post-
master-General must be retained ? He wished also to
know from the Noble Marquis (Londonderry) what
he meant by a very favourite phrase, which he had
used upon that and many other occasions, " a well
understood economy," it reminded him of what Hu-
dibras said of pain—
" Simply, 'tis not bad nor good,
But merely as 'tis understood !"
The Hon. Member then entered into a statement to
slew the various sources of influence possessed by the
Crown, and concluded with cautioning the ['souse
-against giving their sanction to the continuance of
unnecessary places, with a view toe:tend that influence.
Mr. MONEY contended, that the second Postmas-
ter was not a sinecure. He knew, that in the course
of last year no less than two thousand Reports were
referred to the Postmasters, which must have been
read ; and it was equally true, that not a single dis-
bursement could take place without a warrant from
the Postmasteas-General. When he considered also
the enormous patronage of the establishment-(Hear,
hear, and laughter)—he could not think it right that
it should rest in the hands of one person.
Lord A. HAMILTON wished to ask the Hoe. Gentleman
one question, namely, for what length of time one of the Post-
masters, he meant Lord Clancarty, had.been absent horn the
country? Ile bilieved that he was away about two years, aril
this was a complete answer to the Hon. Gentleman's speech—
(Loud cries of I.luestion ! question!)
Mr. MONEY was proceeding to speak again, but Was pre-
vented by cries of "spoke ! spoke !"
Mr. MA NSFIELD said he would rather give ,E 10,060 a-year
to two such persons as now filled the office, than 411,00 to one! •
(Laughter, and cries of Question !")
Lord NORMANDY said a f.ny words in reply.
The House then divided, when the numbers wero-i-•
For the liodon - - - -
tot
216
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and
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Ottriail We should admit it of eamiipp, dit oast Ire istammeloisereftwowsi lion &tea, up& 'MIAOW shewilig; ought to -.
s that Of the Committee To spolikaho the ,places now arrustlitt.. nievoihan to ' UM* SISINVIVS• motion. Hetittsted the Homo would
elated the office of the put into the estimates, the SUMS necessary to purr feel that inieferring.this mishit' to the Parliamentary
.
ihe did not see the late chase hits --(Heir, hear). Commissioners, the Ministers meant, as far as they
itroul in the House, yet Mr. HAUMNER was flattered by the manner in could, to 10•41, effect m tite Wish,/ of. Parliament.
whose support he had which he hid been mentioned by Right Hon: They 'ought tn. wait for
tlpe RepOrt or the Cpnsmis-
now of making a mo- Gentlemen- He had formerly voted for the. Bill of sinners, and then, and not till then, could they con-
should be abashed.— that Right Hon. Gentlemen, but the vote which he sistently arrive at adidecision upon the'cpiestian.
hen also the support of had given on a recent occasion was founded, as was Mr. WILBERPORCE expressed his surprise that
Chancellor of the Ex- that which be should give that night, on the observa, his Majesty's Government 'drool(' have arnwedthat
ioner of the Woods and tions he had made on the state of the country. They the retention of the present office was necessary for
w he asked why any all knew that, in Consequence of thee existing agricul- the purpose of augmenting the influence of the Omen.
r the abolition of any tural distress, Meetings had been, called in almost all, The influence of the Crown meant, in fact;something
public service, should parts of the country, at which it was notorious the which would be called by a much coarser name in
lble Lord ?—(Henr).— subject of such Meetings had but seldom been entered places where plainer language was used than was
)inion of what occurred upon. There were those wh6 knew that in times of usually employed in that House. There could be no
country 'since, which distress the greatest impression might be made on the doubt that offices were given to Gentlemen to wire
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,m 2 draw whieh their neoole.and who harltravelleA in ullrlireetinnern