Star.
London, England, 1831-03-04 00:00:00

FR !PAY EVENING, MARCH 4. 1831.

that he considered a reformed Parliament essential to the wel'-being of
the Government; at the same time, he did not agree with the noble
earl opposite (Grey), that it was irregular for their lordships to take
notice in that holm of any measure brought forward in ihe other house
of Parliament, before that measure was submitted to their
lordships
As a noble lord (Wharncliffe) had given notice of a motion for produc-
tion of certain papers relative to the question of reform, he (Lord Stan-
hope) should take that opportunity of addressing a few words to their
lordships on that great and important question.
Lord KING then presented various petitions for reform in Parlia-
ment from Bridge-street Ward (tendon), Shaftesbury, Kiddenninster,
Tiverton' Bulmore, MU, and also from places in Mayo, Devon, Dur-
ham, and Suffolk. The same noble baron also presented several pen-
tions for an alteration in the tithe system.
Lord CARBERRY moved for certain returns relative to the pub-
lic works executed in Ireland during 1828, and subsequot years--
Ordered

Lord WHARNCLIFFC postponed the motion of which he had given
notice that evening, until Tinned/I next. •
Lord ELLENLIOROUGH moved that all accounts relative to the
India trade be printed.—Agreed to.
The Churches Building Bill went through a committee ; after which
their lordships adjourned at seven o'clock.

PRICE 711.

measure. Ile ( Mr. Bankes) would dare to use the phrase, and called it
* revolution, fur these were the days of intimidation. He had heard no
words uttered on that side but words of intimidation (Hear, bear.)—
And although he was one of the proscribed, he would be worse than a
coward if he shrunk from the declaration. The speech in reply, by the
learned A emu General, to the speech of the hon. member for lie.
rougltbridge on the previous evening, was, in the mind of him ( Mr.
Bankes )no answer at all. Nothing in answer to the kon. member
for Boroughbrldge did he hear ; but far be it from him ( Mr. Backer,)
verity that many taluable observations did not fall from the' learned
gentleman ; hut perhaps, in the confusion that was in the house at the
time, they had escaped the notice of Lim (Mr. Bankes.) The hon.
member for Preston had also expressed his astonishment at the length
that the measure had gone; but he could not go so far as to say that
he iniproved of It entirely, although he thought it wonderful that Mi.
sal tees of the crown should have gone so faze He had expressed his
approbation of their cuttigg down :be aristocracy, but atilt be Auld they
did not give altogether enough to the democracy, but he thought it was
a gqodstep towards a beginning. The boa. member (Urea) briefly ex-
pressed his disapprobation of the expression rabble, which Lad been
Tatlied to a portion of the public• by the honourable member for Caine.
te House had heard what had been said by the hou. member for
Preston, slto had often s ylcd himself the member of the people ; he
had said that the excitement out of doors was not more than it had been
in 1814, 1616, or 1819, or any intervening or subsequent year ; so that
the hon. members were not called to decide upon the question with
bludgeons over their heads. The noble lord, the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, had said that he was not under any impression of fear; he
(Mr. B.) was sure that the noble lord was not, nor was he (Mr. B.)
under any such impression. There were members in the same spirit of
security in the house, but yet they would require time to consider the
question ; but he (Mr. Bankes) could assure them, on the authority of
the Member of the People, that the danger was not greater now titan it
was seventeen years ago. He (Mr. Danko-) acknowledged that there
was a power—an increasing power—the power of the press, which had
much increased between the commencement of the period he had quoted
and tile present day. (Hear, hear.) lie acknowledged that they
were all untenable to that power ; but with all its facility to de-
velope public and private character, with this conviction before his
eyes, and uttering this acknowkdgetnent, he would never succumb to
it—he would never flinch from his duty—powerful, increasing, and
overwhelming as he acknowledged it. lie would be a coward indeed
if he shrunk fram declaring his sentiments, and even with the terror
of its powers staring them in the face he would call upon the House
to pause before they yielded to the measure. Another system had
been practised on the introduction of this measure, which was equally as
bad as that which he had censured. Last night an Honourable
Member had been called to order for saying that the measure
had ham introduced with the approbation of this—he ( Mr. Bantle.)
would not say approbation, he would accept a more qualified term
—the cognisance of his Majesty. The Honourable Speaker had on
that occasion given his opinion that the Hon. Member was not out
of order. as his Alajesty had the power of dismissing his Mites.
ten if they acted ttecoustitutionally, atd hence it was to he in-
, (erred that the meanest had been brought in with the cognizance
of the Crown, and this was received as competent authority ; but
when it was recollected that when the bill was proposed the pr anion
was accompanied with a threat, that if it did not pass that parliament
would be dissolved, the house could only infer that that threat of disso-
lution of parliament had also been givett under the cegnizance of the
Crown. Such authority had never been before used in that liouse,and
he (Mr. Bankes) hoped that it never would be used again. In exte-
nuation of the noble lord who had been called to order on the previous
evening, it had been told the house that a noble lord had come down to
another house, and had used the same expressions, that he had his
Majesty's authority for presenting a measure. He (Mr. Bunke') ad-
mitted that such had been the case, but then it was not accompanied
with a threat. The noble lord had only said that he had the authority of
the crown so by thee mauves before then for their consideration.—
, But this ministry was in the habit of always, when they got into what
! was called a scrape, of quoting as a precedent the blunder of some great
man, and, as is usual in such cases, they generally selected for their pre-
cedent the very worst blunder of their great authority. The Attorney.
General had quoted, as authority for the present proposed disfranchise-
ments, the charters that had been taken at an early date as precedent ;
but the hon. member for Boroughbridge had truly said, that that was
no precedent, but only went to prove an infringement on the people's
rights. With regard to the alteration which was proposed, in taking
away the prerogative of so many corporations, it certainly deserved no
other phrase than an act of spoliatior. The honourable member more
particularly noticed the allusion that had been made in the speech of
the AuornerGeneral to what had taken place in the reign of Crom-
well, when he altered the form of the parliament, and the learned
gentleman had quoted the sentiments of several, amongst ethers was
Clarendon, who had approved of the measure ; but he (Mr. Bankes)
would suggest to him the propriety of searching a little farther,
and to look to what had been the result of the alteration. From the
Parliamentary Records it would seem, that the infraction had been but
of short duration. He (Mr. B.) would look to the opinion of the pa-
rent of the measure, to Cromwell. The hon. member then quoted the
address which was delivered by the Protector to what he called his Par.
!lament, which was in substance--" My Lords and Gentlemen, i had
the comfortable expectation that the Loan would make the meeting of
this Parliament a blessing at his hands; but I find that you have more
disjointed the nation than it has ever been before, and I now dissolve
vou, and let the Loan judge between us of my intentions:'—(('hvers.)
'The hon. member had told the hon. member for Westminster that he
would give him better authority than his own for designating the mea-
sure a revolution—and he would not go back to ancient elates, but would
quote one of the latest, in the last speech that had been delivered by the
late Nlr. Huskisson in that house. Mr. H. said, the " proposed ex.
tensive reform would in a few years end in a total subversion of our
Constitution, and be followed by complete confusion and anarchy."—
(Hear, hear, hear.) Supported by such a high authority, he would not
scruple to adopt the phrase which a gallant member had been repro-
bated for using, and to call this a revolutionary movement. (Hear.)
Should those who had in a manner been brought up under the superin.
! tendence of that great man, Mr. Huskisson, promote a measure which
he, who was an experienced man, who was not one of the aristocracy,
and who did not despise the peopie—(hesr) -had pronounced to be re.
volutionary, and heal called upon the house, in the name of all that was
dear to them, to refrain from. There was one, indeed, of the Cabinet,
the Member for Montgomery, who, if he was to credit the public
papers, had on his late reelection, made a powerful speech quite con-
formable to the tenets of Mr. Huskisson. in which he deprecated inno-
vation and disfranchisement. (Hear.) He had heard with surprise the
Attorney-General range Mr. Pitt on his side. Mr. Pitt, in one of his
latest speeches, iu that relating to the Irish union, had declared that if
any thing could balance the edvantages of that measure it would be the
necessity of disturbing the representation of the country. lie trusted
that the hon. member for Westminster would allow that he had brought
forward great harms, and that he was justified, therefore. without incurr-
ing that honourable member's censure, in declaring the present to be a
revolutionary measure. (Cheers.)

Mr. 110IIHOUSE trusted, that the Hon. Member having so par.
ticularly addressed himself to hint, he (Mr. H.) was somewhat justified
In trespassing upon the attention of the house. He would show tie
lion. Member, from as great an authority as the one which he had
quoted—fur it would be from the same authority ( Mr. Pitt)—that the
Gallant General was not justified in calling the present a revolutionary
measure. He had heard nothing front Hun. Gentlemen to prove that
it was such; he had heard assertions indeed—(henr, hear)—but as to
any argument or documents to show that the people of England
would lose their Constitution, that the Monarchy would be die.
turbed, that the realm, consisting of three States, King, Lords,
and Commons. would not to-morrow consist of King, Lords, and
Commons, if the bill were to be brought in force to-morrow, he
must declare that he had beard no such thing. With respect to
the authority of Mr. Huskisson, without wishing to undervalue
it, he must tell the Hon. Member that be had never professed
himself a disciple of Mr. Huskisson on Parliamentary Reform.
Mr. Pitt, in the very speech on the Irish Union which had been quoted,
had declared, when disposing of that paltry pretext, of there being cer-
tain fixed principles over which parliament had no eontroul—an argu.
ment which he (Mr. Hobliouse) had been astounded at the learned
member for Buroughbridge, with the history at England in his hand,
presuming to make use of—Mr. Pitt, he said, had declared that he had
no doubt of the competency of parliament to treat the question of Re.
form.—(Hear, hear.) Mr. Pitt, though not a special pleader, though
not the first in the Court of Chancery, though not, perhaps, accustomed
to argue with so acute a gentleman as the learned member for Boroughs

bridge—. Ur. Pitt thought, that not only disfranchisement by parlia-
ment was no robbery, but even that those who maintained the eon tarty
were Jacohins—(hear, hear)— for they supposed there existed in tie
stet; a sovereign in abeyance. besides the authority residing in parlis•
men`.—(Hear, hear.) They had been reminded of the disints,.;,g by
Oliver Cromwell of toe parliament of eighteen days. But why lied thou
parliament been dismissedf Because it was so true a representutient of
the people, that Cromwell found its existence to be incompatible with
tyr.inry. Had Cromwell lived in these days he would not have found
it mei:attar! to dissolve parliament in eighteen days. The lion. member
who had opened the debate had said, that it was a popular parliament
who had murdered the king. Now, this was not the time to speak
lightly of crowned heads, for they had enough to do to keep their sta-
tions.—(Loud cries of " Hear," from the Opposition.) He said
so advisedly and sincerely; it was not now necessary to colour any
events tending to detract from the unfortunate men who, by birth, or
other circumstances, were placed on thrones. But the member fin (lx.
ford must be perfectly aware that Charles I. did not meet his doom in
consequence of the determination of the democracy, bat was put to death
by the patty, then uppermost, for their own purposes, and because:. if,
the treaty which be was making with them, lie was discovered to be
acting with mental reservation. He denied that the Parliament was at
the time a popular one. Eiglity.four members condemned Charles I.
to death, and of these more than sixty were members for boroughs.--
(Hear.) The bon. but. Paid, wherever a popular assembly gamut
power, it was found incompatible with monarchy. He gave two in.
stances--Spain and Sicily ; both unfortunate for his argument. It wa..
not the Cortes dethroned the King of Spain ; it was the imbecility ci
the Monarch, and the invasion of a French army. In Sicily, the
Censtimtion was settled by Lord Castlereagh, when he sealed
Europe, and it throve accordingly. ( Hear, hear.) The honourable b:,
ronct had alluded to the present state of France. The right honour.
able baronet below him (Sir Robert Peel) had admitted that the
people of France were justified in their late resistance,—a sentiment that
did him honour. The cause of the present disagreements in Franc;
was not that the Chambers were too popular, but that they were no-
sufficiently popular. The learned member for Newport (Mr. II
Twin) said, the proposed bill would throw the franchise into the hana,
of small shopkeepers and attorneys. There was no class who now ex-
ercised more influence in elections than attorneys. The hill would gire
the franchise to those who ought to possess it—those who had a busi
noes and a stake in the country, and were interested in its good govein
none. The present measure was called revolutionary; but no such
charge was made against Mr. Pitt's plan, when he proposed to disfran-
chise the rotten boroughs : and when Mr. Grey brought forward his plan,
which went to remodel the whole representation, with the exception et
-one.fifth. Mr. Pitt, wbo bad then changed his opinions, did not charg;
it as revolutionary ; but, said the time was not suitable—and Mr. Fox
approved of that planof Reform, and said it assailed no genuine.propet:y.
The learned member for Boroughbridge (Sir C. Wetherell) had made
a very pleasant speech last night, and certainly, as had been said by a
French writer, never was empire lost so gaily—but for himself, he
must say with the deepest seriousness, that it reform was refused, if all
hope of reform by that house was lost, he could not but fear that very
soon that catastrophe must come which they were all desirous to avoid.
It might be said of most of the hon. gentlemen who opposed the mea-
sure as bad been said of Cenar, that they fought not only f. 7 ieterl ,
but for life. Many of then: thought they would not b
but be was confident reform would make no great change is t! r retire -
sentution. lie was confident liar the people of England soul., :.e. et to
parliament those men best qualified to do their business. (Hear. Mar.)
When he spoke of having portals, through which men of talent
might enter the house without siooping, they seemed to throw eat
of consideration the qualification of honesty. (Hear, hear, hear.)
—lie had in general seen men of great talent, who came lef the House
through close boroughs, do more harm to the country than good.—
ll'hen a member was sent in by a patron lie must obey that patron. he
must go iu the stern path of duty, supporting the Niiniaier his patron
supported.—all whose measures would of course be good. But those waa
not the way in which members should be sent to that house. They
should be sent for their ability and integrity, approved by the peol.:e
whom they were to represent, and for wheat happiness they were
legislate. It was said there caw danger in yielding to popular opin;o.e
and popular feeling; but lie thought the danger came from throe -
ticians, if politicians they could be called, who, when nut!' three if.
ligh, upon the nation. still clung to their prsjut:ices and fears; dies.:
were the individuals who were the cause of alarm and der ger ; but Le
trusted the gosd sense of the country would not allow a sinister a, 11l
be mule of such exaggerated, such unfounded tears. The oppon,:,
of the bill sought to excite the fears of the aristocracy and of the pus
son of property—they were told to look to their rents—to tithes —mu
the loads; and it was said if the bill passed property would become
insecure ; as if the people had an interest in the destruction of pro.
perty. lie would say with Burke that the people had no interest in din.
order; and when iu possession of their rights, had never shown an in.
clination for disorder. The hun, Member for Preston said he spoke
the sentiments of millions ; he could say, that he spoke the sentiments
of his own heart, which he Is:lL:veil to lee the sentiments of millions
of his countrymen. Why should they not ? He was an Eaglialtilian,
' born on the same soil, received the same education, had the same inter-
ests and wishes; and he hoped the Members of that House would
prove themselves the faithful interpreters of the feelings of tho people
by passing the bill of the noble lord. It was said the people were not
good judges on political subjects, and that the present bill would
give too much power. (Hear.) For himself he had no hesitation in
saying, that lie would not object to any plan of reform that let in
any class of his countrymen to the enjoyment of political rights ; but
he would be unjust to the cause that had the whole of his heart, if he
did not give the best support in his power to the plan proposed by the
noble lord. (Hear, hear.) He trusted it would be supported by the
mass of the people of England. He would warn the people, if his
voice could be heard, of the danger of not giving it their best suppott.
The lion. member for Newport appeared delighted at the thought that
it would not satisfy the people. He had probably as touch tommuoi-
cation with the people as that learned gentleman, and from all he had
heard, as well as from the justice of the measure itself, he war convinced
the people of England would and ought to be satisfied. (Hear.) (Lea'
part of the debate on the part of the opponents of the measure was made
up of taunts on the ministers, some of whom were not always favour-
able to reform • but the people of England eared nothing about that. It
might be a good joke to talk of the budget ; but u hat the people lot iced
at was whether the bill would give them the just rights they had been
an long endeavouring to attain? (Hear, hear.) Taunts were used about
division in the Cabinet—what was that to him or to the people ? Oct
this question there was no division Its the Cabinet, and the taunts Caine
with a bail grace from some of those by whom they were used. On a
former question of great int' ortance, the right honourable baronet i.e low
him (Sir Robert Peel) took the manly pea that must ever entitle bin,
to the gratitude of the country. He had borne such taunts.—one of his
dearest relatives had read against him one of his own former speeches ;
had he then allowed himself to he deterred from the honourable course
he was pursuing, instead of the immortal character he had acquired,
where would he now be? He would be justly regarded as unfit
to govern empires, because not capable of governing himself. What
was then the language of the honourable anti learned member fcr Bo-
roughhridge ? snstead of Althorp and Co. it was then Peel ar.d
Co. He well remembered the words ; It was too good a joke to he
lost, and the honourable and learned gentleman had committed a pla-
giarism on himself for the purpose of serving it up again for the
entertainment of the house. (A laugh.) There was another joke
too, reproduced last night. Tile Hon. and Learned Gentleman was the
expiring Member for Boroughbridge. He was then the expiring At.
torney.General.— (Great laughter.) He was then so waggish on
the Right Horottrable Baronet, and probably thought his joke
might divert him from his purpose of saving an empire—(latighter)
or perhaps he thought the Right lion. Brooklet might abandon it
sooner than lose his friendship; but public men must make up their
minds to great reverses. The Right Hon. Gentleman persevered and
lost the Learned Gentleman's friendship, who had the satisfaction of
hearing the house ring with cheers in admiration of his jokes. (Great
laughter.) It appeared to him that the conduct of Ministers wanted no
jusiitication. Supposing they had remained oat of office, where was
a Government to be formed ? Could the opponents of this Bill
form a Government ? The Right Ilsnourahle Baronet below hint 'fled
failed to do it ; if it could be done by mortal man he would have suc-
ceeded, but he had failed. It could only be done on two principlea—
on the principle of reform, or on the principle of an;i-reform. The
Right lion. Baronet and his colleagues went out of office brcause ;hey
could not carry on a Government on the anti-reform principle—that
was admitted to be the real cause—not the Civil List. Ile would like.
then, to know what Government could be formed but a sorer:anent of
reformers. (Hear.) What made him so anxious that the late Go.
vemment should go out—(if on the division which caused their re•
meat, he had /Mewed any indecorous haste in pressing the Right Hon.
natol,tt for an answer whether they would retire, he begged his
panto:) —it was the conviction, that none hut a Reform Government
could go on with safety to the country—and that question once adjust-
ed. he hoped the Right Hon. Baronet and his friends would be in.
duced to put their shoulders to the wheel, and drag the car tit state
through a long ear. er of glory and renown. (Hear, hear.) He
had seen penal inflictions mitigated— coniniercial restraints removed—
religious disabilities give way before the spirit of truth—and in all the
right hon. hart. bore a distinguished part. In one view he gained the most
glorious victory, a victory Dyer himself. He hoped he would now add
his name to those who had been the greatest benefactors of their c. tin.
try, by giving his support to a reform that would secure its safety, and
honour, and happiness. (The hon. gentleman sat down amidst loud
cheering )
111 r. HART DAVIS addressed ;he house for some time, but was
inaudible in the gallery.
Mr. BARING said the proposal of the noble lord was, in point of
fact, a new constitution. Those who supported it might say that the
old constitution was worn eut.--that it worked so ill that it must be
changed; but they mast admit that the bill they now proposed was a
new constitution, as certainly as if it came fresh from the pigeon-holes
of AbW Sieyes. (Hear, hear.) There had been various c.inatiturions
tried in the world, but the oily successful trial of monarchy with a
popular assembly was in this country. (Hear.) That coustitation
was hitherto the admiration oldie world, and till lately, be thought the
Pride of the country.—(Hear, hear.) That Constitution was hitherto
King, Lords, and Commons; if this bill were to pass he feared it must

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