Star.
London, England, 1822-07-09 00:00:00

IRISH INSURRECTION ACT.

The Order of the Day for the House resolving it-
self into a Committee on this Act having been read,
Mr. GOULBURN said that the House was too
well aware of the circumstances under which the ap-
plication of the Insurrection Acts to Ireland had ori-
ginated to need that he should recapitulate them.—
In making this application for the continuance of it,
he should not attempt to offer any argumerts to in-
duce the House to look at it with a more favours le
eye than it had hitherto been regarded with. For
though he had voted for that Act, he assured the
House that no Hon. Member who had most strenu-
ously opposed it, was mote sensible than he was of
the general objections to it. It would have been
most gratifying to his feelings, and to those of the
Noble Lord at the head of the Government of Ire-
land, could they have thought it possible to dispense
with it on the present occasion; for they felt that it
was not a measure of that nature which ought to cha-
racterise the acts of a free Government, and that it
could only be justifiable in a case where all milder
means would not avail. He thought he should be
sure of the concurrence of the House if he could sa-
tisfy them that the state of Ireland was such as to
render the resort to extraordinary measures neces-
sary, the ordinary laws being at present inadequate,
and that this particular law was applicable. If he
were able to do this, he thought he should remove
all objection from the minds of those who admitted
that extraordinary times demanded extraordinary
measures.. So short a period had elapsed since Par-
liament had granted this Act, that it was unneces-
sary for him to go into a detail of the history of Ire-
land for the last eight or nine months. It was merely
necessary for him to recall to the recollection of the
House the state of things which then existed, and
comparing that with the present moment, deduce
the necessity he was anxious to establish. He re-
quested the House to remember that at that period
there was a general system of insubordination in the
country, existing to a greater extent in some districts
than in others, but infecting more or less almost
every one. The House would remember, that this
system had been in progressive operation for six or
seven months, up to the period of the meeting of
Parliament, when open insurrection was manifested,
with open warfare against the King's troops. This
rebellion and insurrection had an evident, distinctive,
and alarming character—that of being directed
against the rights of property and the administration
of the law, and principally, and to an alarming ex-
tent, infecting the lower orders. It was besides car-
ried on by secret association, which rendered it diffi-
cult to fathom the source of the danger; and its
mode of operation was to extort oaths for the non-
payment of tithes, taxes, and rent. The result of
the preconcert at nightly meetings, was a general
attack upon the property of the loyal and peaceable.
' The mere particular object of the rebellion was, to
' obtain arms, and make proselytes, that the actors in
it might be enabled to extend to other parts of the
country their destructive 'MOM He could net en-
j ter into a detail of the Atrocious outrages perpetrated,

under this, , as they
.
musrterr present to dse: knew that it waji tales of fire, to take gym.
minds of "all connected with I d: at the same , mediate steprto extinguish it ; but he thought snine
time that he abstained' from principle, in the situa- attention was to be given to the means of preventing
don in which he stood with regard to the House, its recurrence. He begged for himself to say, that
making any appeal to the passions, to assist him to- he had none of that distrust of the Noble Lord
et
wards the object of his address, he would merely ! the head of the Irish GovernMent spoken of by the
observe, that the effect of all the outrages, and of ' Right Hon. Secretary. He thought him a competent
the whole system, was to create a power in the and amiable individual. But they were, to bear s
country stronger than the law. It might be said that mind that the inquiry into the state of that unhappy
it was the duty of the Irish Government to apply to country bad never yet been entered into. The Right
Parliament for strong powers at the earliest moments Hon. Gentleman, however, now came down to tht
these machinations came to its knowledge. But he House to demand a continuance of the tiemendiml
was prepared to contend, that the course pursued by enactments of this Bill. It was true that he ra.te
the Government of Ireland had been perfectly con- them up the suspension of-the Habeas Corpus Ace;
sistent with justice and discretion. In his opinion, it but that was nothing when they considered that it
was the duty of aGcivernment to do its utmost to create never was required at all, and was only dem a ni,;ed
and establish habits of obedience and reverence to in the lust for power, aid granted in the wantonness
the laws; and if a Government were to resort at the of confidence. His objection went to the principle
outset of a manifestation of a lawless disposition to of the Bill, which, he thought, was a subversi:m
unconstitutional severe measures, without trying the the rights of Irishmen, and a violation of that
strength of the ordinary laws, it would go far to up- stitutien which was the only safeguard of their liber!y
root that respect for the laws upon which the stabi- and their lives. He knew, however, that brute force
lity of a Government in a great measure depended. was considered the only nix meditietrix of governivn
In addition to what took place at the Assizes, the in Ireland! He remembered when he was in Ireland,
Government had -resorted to the use of Special Corn- in former times, seeing a man so flogged, from k
missions, through whose exertions many offenders nape of his neck to the calves of his legs, for heilg
were brought to trial. In the counties where out- only suspected of being an United Irishman, a; io
rag, most prevailed, the Special Police, who had been horrify humanity. He should not have possessed the
found so ineffectual, were called into action, and the feelings of a man had he not interfered on that to.
, military were increased one half. But all these pre- casion, and his•only answer was, that he, an
cautions produced no diminution of the evil, and at man, knew not how to govern Irishmen, that the ,
the opening of the Parliament, the plot had reached cat-o'nine-tails or the halter were the only irotr uments
its consummation, and was on the eve of explosion. of punishment to treat them with. It bad always
—Upon the view of this state of. things it was that been the practice of his Majesty's Govez ument to
Parliament was induced to grant to the 'lrish Go- pass coercive measures for Ireland, under
vernment those extraordinary powers of which the of inquiry, and never to perform them. This h
Insurrection Act was only IC part. It was gratifying been the case since 1798 to the present time. T.
for him to say, that there was no longer the same ex- time was come when Ireland must be governe.i
tent of evil which then prevailed. There was in the if its people were freemen, instead of conquered vas.
principal disturbed districts a diminution of outrage. sals. Though he could not expect that any success.
There was also, he hoped, some reform in the spirit ful resistance to the measures of the Governmett
of the people. There was now, which did not then would be made by the Irish in a civil war (old he
exist, a feeling of kindness towards this country, was certainly the last man to wish it), yet he would
arising from her exertions to relieve their distresses, advise the Right Hon. Gentleman and his colleagues
which he hoped to see grow into a feeling of love for not to treat with too much contempt the conirlaints
the Government—(Hear, hear). But he could not of the sufferers. He warned them against taiiill,:;
avoid impressing upon them that there was at least course which would call forth the energies of de pair,
enough remaining to call upon them to hesitate be. and wished them to bear in mind what a Nobleman
fore they deprived the Executive of the means of had told Charles I. namely, that the way to core re-
checking the existing evils, or of preventing the re- bellion was to remove the causes. It was necessary
currence of the past. It was impossible for any one that healing measures should he adopted with re-
to have read the dispatches of the Noble Lord at the spect to Ireland. The first remedy to be applied was
head of the Irish Government, without seeing that a termination of those civil and religious distinctions
there was a regular system of outrage—that outrages which had so long been kept up in that country. ar.d
were exceedingly numerous, and that they were of a which had proved a constant source of exasperation.
character most alarming. And although these dis- He knew it would be said that the English•Hoioe of
patches did not come down to the latest moment, he Commons had done its duty on this subject, and that
wished it were in his power to state that the last ac• the obstacle was to be found elsewhere. But he
counts did not present to the view outrages exactly could not help looking on that portion of the
similar. The dispatches came down to the end of try who favoured Catholic Emancipation, as being
May, and to shew that the system continued in vi- the real impediments in the way of the measure. it
gorous operation biyond that period, he need only they had refused to remain in the Government whea
state the extent to which it was in action during the fol- it, failed, could any man believe that an A nti-eathclie
lowing ten days. During that short space of time in Administration could have been formed ? The dii•
one county alone there were seven houses burned, w culties which had formerly stood in the ay were nn
'
nine houses attacked by armed bands, and one sub- more. It was known what were the sentiments t:
his present Majesty on this subject, and there ter,*jected to nightly visitation. It was not, however,
upon the number of the outrages that he applied to was a time when a king of England could be nice
reasonably expected to. say as Joseph the Secend
Parliament for extraordinary measures. It was on
account of the distinctive character of the outrages had said—" Thank Goo, my people are no loncer
that he called upon the House for additional powers.
divided by religious difference,"—(Hear, heal ).
The next remedy he regarded as a sine qua non. it
It was impossible not to see, from the character of
them, that they were not the result of sudden ebulli- would apply to that which had occasioned all the
tion in the individuals committingthem, but that they disturbances and rebellions in Ireland. The House
proceeded from deliberate design. Robbery, confla- would easily anticipate that he meant the abolitico
of tithes, and the establishment of a new regulation
gration, and murder, followed upon the neglect t 9
obey some notice not to pay rent, tithes, or taxes.— of the revenues of the Church. He regretted that
Another distinctive character was, that certain punish- he had been absent when his Hon. Friend, the Meal-
bteenrdefodr, Montros
it e,s
nt Onkn s t upn tsh
ttot
as us abject.sert tll a t Hcei
itc2
ment was inflicted upon any one who was the means-
of bringing an offender to justice. It was from the la
mentable state of that country that the law was put property was so sacred in its character that it mill ,
not be regulated when this was desirable for the we::- A
in execution only at the expense of the individuals
being of the State. He shewed that Parliamen: h 4
who contributed to it. It frequently happened that
twice applied for a new arrangement of Church pro-
the obnoxious witness or prosecutor were sent to the
nearest jail for their own security, and the papers be-
petty in the time of Henry IV. They had done the
fore the House contained the recital of an instance in same in the reign of Henry V. and the property of
the
which the house of an individual was attacked, in Church was actually taken by the Crown in the
pursuance of a conspiracy to take his life, the day time of Henry VIII.--(Hear.)—Gentlemen might
after he had been sent within the walls of a pri .on for cheer at the name of Henry VIII. but whatever they
might think of his seizure of the Church property, he
safety. Every attempt to check the nightly meet-
ings, without the operation of this Act, would be in- had never found those who held any share of the
effectual. This Act arrested the offender at his door,
I:oodi3spos,"ed tobsehste7'tehdatbythehyimconinsidlearyedimthP.l
sacrilege, by giving up their r.d-
prevented the commission of crime. He called upontolan-niaatciOtll4
emoluments. In t 5.
and in that respect was a measure of mercy, for it
the House to give relief to those who required the re- dern times, he contended, measures had been pro-
lief, and punishment to those who deserved it. The duced in Parliament to make a new regulation in
matters regarding the property of the Church. W;rat
Noble Lord at the head of the Irish Government had
distinctly stated his opinion, that there were those was the origin of tithes ? He would not now go back
who were still sworn in anticipation of this law being to the Jewish Theocracy to inquire into their charac-
out of force. He knew that individual character, ter ; but the House was aware that tithes had been
however high, was no ground of confidence for high granted to the House of Levi, because they were
and unusual powers. But the necessity being admit-
priests and guardians of the Ark, and had not shared
ted, and Parliament having already confided certain in those lands which had been divided among tile
powers in an individual, the manner in which he had other tribes of Israel. To come to a later p'eriod,
discharged his trust must be a ground of continuance. who would pretend that tithes had been ki:im
A Noble Lord had, on a former occasion, stated that during the first four hundred years of the existence
the Nobleman to whom he had just alluded, had a of the Christian Church ? It was not till the rear
disposition to arrogate to himself arbitrary powers, 800 that they were introduced. They were then to.
and therefore no security was to be placed in him.— troduced by crime. The King of Murcia haring
Against such a charge, it was scarcely possible to de- committed a treacherous murder, obliged the peoCe
fend any Government ; but there were those on the to pay tithes to the Church. He also went to Rome,
other side of the House who could bear testimony to to expiate his offence by offering a tribute of a penal
the public character of that Nobleman, and that con- exacted from every householder. He shewed that the
&knee was due to him--(Hear, hear). If, therefore, circumstances under which tithes had been formerly
his not having abused the confidence reposed in him claimed were very different from those under which
was any ground for a further extension of it, he called they were now levied, as many onerous duties then
upon the House to arm him with the same powers fell on those who received them, from which they
again. He could not conceive that Parliament would were now relieved. The Bishops now had prince:l
restrict to a short period a power which, when simi- fortunes. The four Archbishops and eighteen Bishops
lar dangers existed, was asked for the purpose of ma. now in Ireland received not less, according to retools,
turing plans, which had been commenced under the which he believed to he authentic, than £ISB,OOO,
first grant of that power. The Right Honourable without reckoning on leases of tithes and sources of
Gentleman concluded by moving, that the Speaker increase, which had enabled one Bishop to die worth
leave the-Chair. £850,000, who had little property when he went to
Sir ROBERT WILSON gave full credit to the Ireland. Now, without taking from the present in'
Right Hon. Gentleman for the conciliatory tone in cumbents the income they at present enjoyed, he held
which he bad treated this subject, which he hoped, it to be the duty of Parliament not to commit an act
for the benefit of the Irish, he would preserve in all of spoliation, but to make some arrangement winch
hii communications with the Irish Government. He would be more agreeable to the people, and place
also commended the fair and candid statements be the security of the country on the rock of peace. lie.
had made to the House, although it was not in his set forth the importance of conciliating the people of
power, upon the strength of them, to agree to hit Ireland. For the Protestant School they at present
motion with regard to the Insurrection Bill. He oy: granted the sum of A',18,700. For the Irish Catholic
-pOsed it, as not calculated to obtain that tranquillity School they give 9600. He did not quarrel with the
spoken of by the Right lion.Gendeman; but. on the disparity between the sums, but he remarked on the
coattarle to remove it to a realm distance. He vote to the Kildare Associatioawhich went to defeat

the object of the mot he hid jest mentioned. He
thought we were bound to respect the privileges ofl
the Catholics. If they objected to the Bible in Eng-
lish being introduced for the instruction of Catholic

youth, Co constraint ought to be put on them in this
particular. In every respect attention ought to be
paid to the wishes and habits of thinking of the Irish.
He was anxious that justice should be done to a brave
and generous nation, who would not fail to repay their
benefactors with loyalty and -gratitude. After some
further remarks, he concluded by moving the fol-
lowing Amendment:
" That it be an instruction to the Committee to investigate
the causes of the present disturbed state of Ireland, with a vie*
to adopt such measures as were cakulated to restore and pre-
serve tranquillity in Ireland. and render unnecessary those mea-
sures of extraordinary severity which were alike incompatible
With the spirit and the practice of the British Constitution."
Mr. L. CONCANNON opposed the motion.
Colonel DAVIES was of opinion that an inquiry
Into the state of Ireland ought to be instituted ; but
as he could not oppose the motion, he hoped he might
be allowed to explain the considerations which regu-
lated his vote on this occasion. He was far from ap-
proving the system on which the present Government
bad acted; yet he thought this no reason why the
peaceably disposed people of Ireland should be left
exposed to the assassin's midnight dagger. When
the Government demanded such powers as they had
called for at the commencement of the Session, they
held out a promise that all inquiry should be set on
foot. He now desired to ask why that inquiry had
not taken place? In fading to institute one they had
been remiss. He then noticed the redundant popula-
tion tound in Ireland, • and the demoralization conse-
quent thereon, and suggested as a means of correct•
ing it, the reformation of the election system.
Ali. S. RICE saw no grounds for hoping that the
present disturbances could be successfully met with.
out the aid of the Insurrection Act. The question
had been introduced in the most favourable manner
by the plain, intelligible, and candid statement of the
Riglit lion. Gentleman. Against that he had no-
thing to say ; but in aye:fling to the measure now be-
fore the House, he had a duty to per form which he
felt.to be more painful than that which had devolved
upon him when the subject was last before the House;
for then, though he would not say that a pledge had
been given by the Noble Marquis that inquiry should
take place, yet he miglst assert that the impression
created both in that House and out of doors, was
that an inquiry would take place with a view of get.
ting at the root of the evil. boon had been given
to Ireland in the course of the present Session by the
repeal of the Window Tax, but he called on the Right
lion. Gentleman to name any other permanent bene-
fit that had been conferred on Ireland. The benevo-;
fence of the House had voted a sum to relieve pre-
sent distress, but this was only temporary good, and
would it be contended that the present Bill could be
viewed as a remedy to the evil it was intended to
meet? He thought no Gentleman in that House
would venture to assert that such was its character.
The Police Bill, modified as it now was, he thought
would be beneficial; but a mere measure of police,
and an inefficient measure with respect to tithes, were
not what Ireland had to expect from the new Govern-
ment—were not enough to tranquillize the country.
When the measure was brought forward before, they
passed it in the hope that remedial measures were in,
contemplation, but the jejune and meagre grounds
on which it was now proposed that it should pass
were such, that he was afraid similar grounds might
be urged for its passing at almost any time. He
found the dispatches of 1816, on which similar steps
were taken, to be very different from those which
were now laid before rbe House. He, for one, ob.
jetted to anonymous information being received. For
his own parr, as a Magistrate, he had always been
anxious to take upon himself any responsibility that
might attach to the information he forwarded, or the
recommendations which he thought it his duty to
offer. He objected to that part of the present Bill
which went to deprive Ireland of trial by jury. GOD
forbid that he should deny the Government tho;e
powers which were necessary to meet an extraordi-
nary emergency by interposing a constitutional prin-
ciple, but he maintained that in this instance no case
had been made out to prove that the step proposed to
be taken was necessary. The Juries had not failed
in their duty. At Limerick they had had the expe-
rience of two Special Commissions, and he appealed
to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, the Attorney-
General for Ireland, if the Juries there, under cir-
cumstances of alarm, which might have operated not
merely on weak-minds, but on men of constancy and
courage, had not discharged their duty with the most
undaunted resolution? He was happy to receive the
Right Hon. Gentleman's assent, and under such cir-
cumstances he would ask by what right could they
deprive Ireland of the advantages of trial by Jury?
The evils now complained of in Ireland were net pe-
culiar to the present times. They grew out of the
system which had been acted upon for the last forty,
fifty, or sixty years. They would find that the out-
rages committed were not new, but that they were
similar to those which bad occurred from 1640 to
1650. He repeated, that little or nothing had been
done in the present Session for the permanent im-
provement of Ireland. One motion brought forward
on the state of Ireland had been objected to on the
ground that it was premature, and that the House
ought to wait till they saw what Ministers proposed
to do. They had on that account not pressed the mo-
tion to a division—they had waited to see what Mi-
nisters would do, and they now saw that they had
done nothing. The motion on the subject of tithes
had been met with the previous question. He could
tell Ministers, that if they expected fifty Insurrection
Acts would remedy the evils complained of they de-
ceived themselves. He begged to call the attention
of
the. House to what Lord Bacon had said on the
subject of Ireland. There were four points which he
had described as necessary to be attended to, in order
to restore Ireland to obedience, and he called on the
House to observe what these four points were. The
first was, to extinguish the relics of the late war."
The second, " to attempt the recovery of the hearts
of the people." He would ask if that had been done
by any of the Administrations that had ruled Ireland
since the Union ? He had much respect and regard
for many who had formed part of those Administra-
tions, but he must say that scarcely a single measure
had been adopted which seemed to have for its object
the recovery of the hearts of the people. The thill
point to be attended to, Lord Bacon said, was" to re-
move the root of past, ;maths occasion of new-troubles."

, . .

U011%14141 ask if any of the remetfiai, or nominally
remedial, measures which had been resorted to were
calculated to root out the cause of the troubles which
had occurred ? The fourth point, which went to the
encouraging of plantations and buildings, was less
applicable to existing circumstances, but it was ana-
logous to encourage the manufactures, and give a
new impulse to the industry of Ireland, and in this
view it was not inapplicable to the present time. He
then went over the means suggested by Lord Bacon
for recovering the hearts of the people. These were
the granting of religious liberty, including toleration,
justice, protection, acrd the equal administration of
the law, and obligation and reward. Were any of
these given by the Insurrection Act? According to
these ideas, they would be justified in calling for
measures in favour of Ireland very different from any
that had yet been conceded. He did not mean to
say that justice was unfairly or partially adminis-
tered, but the expense attendant on legal proceedings.
in Ireland amounted in many cases to a denial of
justice; and the want of a legal remedy caused many
of those acts of violence which occurred. As an il-
lustration of this part of his argument, the Hon. Gen-
tleman referred to 2 case which came within his own
knowledge. An individual died, leaving 151. or 201.
to certain persons: the executor got possession of the
property, and the legatees, to whom he refused to
deliver it up, proceeded against him in the Assistant
Barrister's Court. When the cause came on to be
heard, the Assistant Banister stated, that he had no
jurisdiction with respect to legacies, and the plaintiff's
were nonsuited. They then got an engagement from
the executor to pay the demand, and on this engage-
ment they again sued him in the Assistant Barrister's
Court; but the same objection was taken, and suc-
cessfully taken. What did they then do? They pro-
Ceeded criminally against the party, and turned into
a breach of the peace that which was, in fact, a civil
question. It was a common thing, as the Hon. Mem-
ber for Mayo (Mr. Brown) had formerly stated, when
any dispute arose about the tenure of lands, to break
the peace, and lay an information, for the purpose of
deciding, in the shape of a criminal question, that
which the law did not enable them to set at rest in
any ether way. The Legislature had done away
with wager of battle in this country; but the Stamp
Act, sanctioned and upheld by the Gentlemen oppo-
site, had indirectly encouraged it in Ireland (A laugh).
Whatever had been done for the lower orders of that
country was rendered of no avail by the counteract.
ing influence of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
How did the case stand
.? What encouragement did
the people generally receive? If they built a house,
it must be with taxed timber; if they enjoyed the
light and air of Heaven, it must be through taxed
windows; if they wished to warm themselves it must
be at a taxed fire; and if they were desirous of drinking
anything stronger than water, it was also taxed.—
Now what effect had this system of severe taxation ?
He would prove that in proportion as taxes were in-
creased, crime also increased—and vice versa. If they
looked to the number of convictions in criminal cases,
as compared with the rise and fall of duties on malt
and spirits, they would find this proportion established :
Duty.
Criminal Convictitms. Malt. Spirits.
In 1815 there were • 771 14s. 0d....55. 6d.
1616 907........- ..17s. 4d....65. Od.
1811 532.
1616 ....... ......... ...499... 9s. 4d....55. 6d.
1819 • 531 l4e. 0d..;.55. 6d.
1820 723 34s. 0d....55. 6d.
From this it appeared, that whenever there was a
decrease in the duty on malt and spirits, there was
also a decrease in crime. The Honourable Gentleman
then proceeded to animadvert on the prevalence of
illicit distillation in Ireland—and demanded how
could Country Gentlemen enforce the law against
those who were guilty of that offence, when they were
themselves but too often in the habit of using spirits
thus illegally manufactured? Illicit distillation never
would be put down until the Country Gentlemen set
their faces strenuously against it.—After some further
observations, theHon.Gentleman concluded by stating
that he would vote for the amendment.
Mr. Secretary PEEL could not but regard the
course taken by the Hon. Gentleman who had just
spoken as singularly applicable to an Irish question,
as he had set out with supporting the motion, and
finished by declaring it to be his resolution to vote
for the amendment. He, however, must bear his tes-
timony to the temperate manner in which the Hon.
Gentleman had discussed the subject, and if, in the
course of his speech he had pressed rather hard on
those who were now or who had been connected with
Ireland, he could bear it in consideration of the feel-
ing which that Hon. Gentleman always evinced where
Ireland was concerned. He had a few comments to
offer on.those who had preceded the Hon. Gentleman,
though as two of the four Members who had spoken
from the opposite side were in favour of the Bill, of
course his remarks would occupy but a shoot time.
le confessed that be was of opinion the gallant Mem-
ber (Sir R.Wilson) had brought forward no argument
that could at all counteract the impression which
must have been made on the House by the statement
of his Right Hon. Friend. It had only been upon
the most overwhelming necessity that the renewal of
the Act was called for. His Right Hon. Friend had
challenged the production of one instance in which
the powers entrusted in the hands of the G.vernment
had been exercised with severity. He had proved
that the Noble Lord at the head of the Irish Govern-
ment had only resorted to such measures with the
utmost necessity; and it was impossible to withhold
from him the highest praise for the manner in which
he had exercised the prerogative of mercy towards
individuals who, by their crimes, had incurred the
penalties of the law. Under all these circumstances
he must express his surprise that the gallant Member
for Southwark should permit himself to declare that
the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act had been
required of Parliament, at the beginning of the Ses-
sion, from the lust for power. It was impossible for
any man to look at the result of that application to
Parliament and say that it was dictated by the love
of power—(Cheers). Was it fair, either, for that Hon.
Member to withhold the power now asked for be-
cause be saw abuses of power twenty-five years ago?
Was it wise to revive topics connected with that pe-
riod and its events ? Would it not be wise, on the
contrary, for the House to draw 'the veil of oblivion
over them for ever ? It was said that these powers
should not be granted, because there had been no in-
quiry into thecauses of the melancholy transactions
which called for them. Now he should be glad to

•

blow what MI Mira inianiry He would ask
the Elemutl*Sfienibier whourged this, to take the
three first objects of complaint—Catholic Emancipa-
tion, Tythes, and Education; and he would then
ask him if there bad been no inquiry made into the
state of those great questions? It was impossible to
throw them together for the purpose of examination.
Each of them was enough for the utmost attention of
one Committee, or for the House, at one time. As
an example in proof of this, there was the Committee
upon Illicit Distillation, to which he himself had
given the most unweared.attention for two Sessions;
and he should like to know whether the Honourable
Member for Limerick would have considered it pro-
bable, that the operations of that Committee would
have been expedited by mixing up with its inquiries
the subjects of Education and Tithes? He said this
to shew, that these questions had not escaped the at-
tention of Government, because they had not been
brought under consideration in the mass ; and to,re-
mind Honourable Members that they were not so
light and unimportant in their separate characters, as
to be so easily disposed of, and to be immediately
remedied. With regard to the interference of Go-
vernment, to render assistance to the distressed, it
*as extremely difficult to determine where a Go-
vernment ought to step in with gratuitous relief,
under such circumstances—(Hear, hear).--.Cer-
tainly not at the first appearance of complaint.
Government who pursued such a course would nM
be deserving the name of a Government. The pub-,
lic money was not entrusted to their hands for such
a purpose, and nothing but the most urgent state of
public distress could warrant its application to the
relief of partial distress. If the Government had,
upon the present unhappy occasion, proceeded at once
to give indiscriminate gratuitous relief, would they
not, in all probability, have prevented that spon-
taneous display of charity and benevolence which
they were now witnessing? Upon the question of
tithes, notwithstanding the claims Which the state of
the country had made upon the time of the Lord Lieu-
tenant, every pledge which had been given upon the
subject by his Noble Friend near him, at the begin-
ning of the Session, had been fully redeemed. fhe
gallant Member opposite had quoted the opinion of
one whom he considered to be among the ablest ad-
vocates of tithes in the sister country. Now he had
paid the greatest attention to this, and he confessed he
could make nothing at all of it. He would read to
the House an extract, and let them judge of the rest
from it. The Right Hon. Gentleman then read a
passage, in which the writer said that tithes united
" the chants and canticles of all ages, with the fruits
and flowers of all seasons"—(Laughter). This was the
authority which the gallant Member had quoted.
Sir ROBERT WILSON intimated that the writer
was Monsieur Chateaubriand.
Mr. Secretary PEEL then proceeded to remark.
upon the Trial by Jury, and stated his doubts of the
practicability of partial introductions of the system
of this country. He could never consent that the
renewal of the Insurrection Act should be considered
as an increase of the power of the Government, or'
as a measure of coercion to the people of eland.—
It was not intended to coerce the people of Ireland,
but to protect those who wished to observe the laws.
It was not so much a protection for theslated house
as for the thatched cottage.
_He relied upon the dis-
'passidisite judgment Thilicitise for the renewal of
the Bill, but he would ask those who opposed it how
they could, with the documents before them, leave
the country to the dangers which the next winter
might bring with it, unless this protection were
afforded? It was a measure of protection to the in-
nocent and unoffending, and of mercy to those who,
without it, might be led to deeper crimes, which ne-
cessarily brought with them the certainty of deeper
punishment—(Hear, hear).
Sir ROBERT WILSON explained.
Mr. J. SMITH was of opinion, that all the reme-
dies applied to the state of Ireland had been coercion
-and punishment.
Sir J. NEWPORT would yield a very reluctant
assent to the renewal of the Act; but thought the
duration of it should be limited to a period in the
next Session, when it was certain there would be a
fall attendance ; as, for instance, the beginning of
May. The House might be assured that Insurrec-
tion Acts would never reach the root of the evil. It
would be a libel on the people of Ireland to say that
they were incapable of appreciating the benefits of
government. In every country but his own,
theiri,-liman was a good member of society, and had
risen to eminence and honour. That,could only arise
from the system of Government. The Noble Mar-
quis (Londonderry) was above all others bound to
seek a remedy for the calamities of Ireland, as it was
by his efforts that the two Legislatures were consoli-
dated into one. He (Sir J. Newport) assented to the
less of two evils. He did not look on the measure as one
of moral improvement, but as a highly penal statute.
Mr. PLUNKETT concurred with the last speaker
in most of his remarks. This was a measure that
nothing but necessity could justify. It had not been
for a moment meant that the measure should be per-
manent. ,Whenever the necessity ceased, he and his
friends would, if possible, outstrip the zeal of the
Right Hon. Baronet, in putting a period to the mea-
sure. No country had made greater advances in the
course of the last 50 years than Ireland. Did that
shew any indifference or indisposition on the part of
Government ? The Right Hon. Gentleman observed,
he was convinced that even Catholic Emancipation
would have had no effect in quelling the disturbances
in Ireland. Nothing but strong measures would have
that effect. If the Member for Midhurst (Mr. John
Smith) knew the state of Ireland now, he was certain
even that Honourable Member would not oppose the
measure. The state of that unfortunate country was
that of absolute slavery to the miscreants who car-
ried on these burnings, housebreakings, murders, and
I plunder. By the operations of the Insurrection Act,
this system of terror had been put down and restrained.
Mr. GRATTAN wished the Bill, if renewed, to be
limited, as suggested by the Right Hon. Member for
Waterford, to the Ist of May next.
The Gallery was then cleared for a division :
For the Committee - - - 135
For the Amendment - - - - 17
Majority - - - ' - 1l a
Oa the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, the House
was in a Committee oa the RM.
Mr. GO(JLBURN jiropmed Mc up the blank with the
words first of August."
site JOHN NEWPORT suggested that the first of May
aught to be substituted for the Arita August.
Mr. HOOLOWIN assured the Committee, that he would

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thy t silty notice of Me intettlife to emir
unfortuntely, the restrain should be necessary. No et:
fort would be Wanting ea his pert to iatriddce the iubjett when
there timid be a full attindance of Members:
Mr J. NEWPORT could n* adinit that any duty which
Irish Members bad to discharge should interfere with their ditty
In that House.
Mr. J. P: GRANT eirpressed a hope that Hon,
Friend would not girt up his intention to aortas the duratien
of the Act.
Mr. BROUGHAM alio reeemtneisded his Elgin Hen. Friend
to take the sense of tita Committee upon his proposed amend.
went. He could mot depend upon the assurance of the
Hon. Gentleman, wild might be dui of *ace next year: He'
should distrust the statement of any Minister.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, le Should object
to shorten the duration of the Bill. If it was limited to the 14
of May, the House would. he compelled to discuss it about
Easter, and his Majesty's Government Would not haul the op;
portunity of waiting to the longest period to see if tranquillity
might not supersede the necessity of the Bill.
The Committee then divided on the question— -
Fur filling up the blank with the Ist of Angst* 94
Fur the Ist of May - $7 .
Major ity .; - —57
The House then resumed, and the ripen was ofdered N bi
received to-min-rove.
Mr. GOULBUR?f proposed the wend reading of the trial
Tithe Leasing Bill, with an understanding that the discusied
should come on in the Committee.
The Bill was opposed by Mr. DA LY and Sit J. Nrwroars
The Horse then divided, when there appeared—
Fur the Motion 14
Against it - .;

--
Majority - - -42
The Bill was then read a second time, aad ordered to.lie
moimitted on Friday.
The Irish Constables Bill was recommitted; mad the Hesse
being in a Committee on the Bill,
Mr. C. GRANT said, that although Many of Ms objectless
had been removed by the modification of the Bill, he was sot
yet reconciled to the principle of the Bill. He particularly ob-
jected to the power of appointing the Chief Constable being
vested in the Lord Lieutenant.
Mr. GOULBURN expressed hk willingness to alter the Bill
so as to meet the views of his Right Hos. Friend.
Some verbal Amendments were then agreed to; the Heusi
resumed, and the Report was ordered to be received on Friday:
Adjourned at Half-put Two.

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