Star.
London, England, 1831-10-13 00:00:00

THURSDAY EVENING, OCTOBER 13, 1831.

No. 13,912.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.
HOUSE OF LORDS, OCT. 12.
The LORD CHANCLLLOR RD to hear the case of ILeMble
v. Harris, which will come on again to-morrow.--Judgment
is expected to-morrow.
The LORD Cuawcztr.os took hie wet on the woolsack
at five o'clock.

A petition was presented from the parish of Lambed',
praying the Vestries Bill may not pass into a law, as it
then stood.

The Earl of SHAFTESBURY also presented $ petition
from the pariah of St. James. Westminster, praying to be
heard by counsel against the Vestries Bill.
The Irish Hospitals' Bill passed through a committee.
Lord C A !WERT presented a petition from a parish in
Ireland against the employment of yeomanry corps ; also a
petition from certain tithe-payers in the Queen's County,
complaining of the hardships they suffer under the tithe
system.
The Appropriation Bill was read a sewed time, and cone-
mined for to-morrow.

The Arms (Ireland) Bill was read a second time, and com-
mitted for to-morrow.

Mr. Belmar., and other members from the Commons,
brought up the Special Constables' Bill and two private bills.
A petition in favour of Reform was presented from 1.4.:1.
enter.

DRAIIIA43I BILL (lIILLAYD).
The Duke of LEINSTER moved the order for going
into Committee on the Irish Embankment BilL
Lord CARBF.RY opposed the Bill, on the ground that
it would interfere with the rights of private property.—
The noble lord complained that the 11111, which contained
many provisions, had been hurried through the House. He
had caked the noble and learned lord on the Woolsack
whether the Bill would protect the rights of individuals,
and had been told by that noble and learned lord that the
Session was so far advanced that he had not time to ex-
amine it, and should therefore recommend it be withdrawn
until nest Session.

The Duke of LEINSTER expressed a hope that the
Bill would pass. The noble duke was convinced it would
do much 'pond for Ireland.
The Karl of WEST3I EA TH knew that great advan-
tage would be derived from draining lands in Inland, and
would therefore support the 818. At the: same time
he should like to blow from one of the noble and learned
lords whether the provisions of the Bill would Injure poor
proprietors of land.
Lord GOSFO RD said, the rights of px.ties were duly
protected.
The Karl of WICKLOW wished to ricer the Bill
to a Select Commitue. No lawyer had given an opinion
upon it.
The LORD CHANCELIA)R admitted that the pre.
sure of business had not allowed him to examine the Bill ;
but there would be time to do so. Ile had expected an Mu.
mediate ecssalon of business In Parliament, but soinething
had occurred in another place to prolong the Session. The
noble and learned lord alluded to the Bankruptcy Court
Bill, and observed that delay would nut defeat that measure.
The House th..n went Into Commi,tee. and
The F.atl of WICK lA)W proposed several amendments,
one of which made the bill an act for general drainage.
The Marquis of Lansdowne, Lord Roden, Lord Clon.
curry, and the En I of Moututcashel, having discussed the
clauses, the bill, with amendment., passed through the com-
mittee

The LORD CHANCELLOR presented a petition in
favour of reform in parliament bow Peterhead, in Scotland.]
The noble and learned lord said he wished to take that op.'
portunity of swing; that a more effectual scheme could not
be devised for frustrating a measure of reform, and pre.
tenting a bill to that effect from passing, than that of com-
mitting breaches of the King's peace, whether as against
any member of their lordships' house or any other of his
Majesty's subjects. (Hear.) All these ebullitions, if they
were meant tor the bill, were the very worst things that
could take place with a view of forwarding It. The bill,
con,inurd the noble and learned lord with great emphasis,
the bill will pass, or one framed on a similar efficient prin-
ciple, will undoubtedly pap; but it will not pus if the
friends of reform are not at the same time the friends of
order. (Hear, hear) said so not so much as an Indivi-
dual holding a high official situation in their lordship'
house and in the country. as in his character as a friend of
the reform measure, and he repeated there was but one way
of frustrating that measure, and that was by breaking the
King's peace. (Hear.)
Lord %V 11 ARNCLIFFE was exceedingly gratified to
beer the noble and learned lord express hisnseit as he had
done in reference to the breaches of the peace which had
hero commitml. There could be now no doubt that the
question of reform must be taken into consideration—but
what degree of reform he would not take upon himself to
say at present. When a moderate measure was inituduced,
it should have his support.
Their lordships then adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
ELICTION COMMITTEE. _

Mr. ESTCOURT preset.ted the report of the Dublin
election committee, which confirmed the return of the ■it.
dog opembers, and declared the petition against such return
not to he frivolous or vexatious —Report otdered to lie on
the tablr.

- - Mr. RYDER presented three petitions from parishes in
Kent, praying that British Protestant soldiers, when on
service in foreign countriev, might not be compelled to ho.
nour the rites of Roman Catholic countries.—Ordered to lie
on the table.

Mr. WYNN presented a pciitkm, with a similar prayer,
from Sligo; and Sir N. BATESON a similar one twin
Coleraine.

Lord OSSORY presented a petition from Castlecomer,
against the tithes in Ireland.
31r. I.RA DER observed that It would be vain to attempt
the collection of tithes in Ireland, according to the present
system much longer.
31r. J EPHSON presented a report of the committee on
steam esrriagic—trnlered to lie on the table.

with Political Unions, he begged to say that it had nothing
to do with Unions. it was in reply to thanks voted by a
large Meeting, and forwarded through the medium of their
Chairman, Mr. Attwood. Could he decline to receive
thanks voted by such an immense body P Was he to say
that such a mark of respect was unworthy of being received
or acknowledged ?—(!fear, hear.) And as to the letter,
what vas there in it encou ng, or calculated to excite
those disturbances and proceedings, which he deplored as
much as any man could do.—(.Hear, hear.) But looking
at the letter now, after it had been complained of by the
Right Honourable tlentleman, and in no very measured
terms, he saw nothing in the letter that he regretted or
could retract.—( Hear, hear.) Did his corresponding with
a gentleman at Birmingham, in acknowledging the thanks
of 150.000, tend to promote breaches of the peace ? And
was there any thing in the conduct of those parties that
would warrant him to treat them other than as loyal
subjects, and well-affected to the King, thanking him
and his Noble Friend for the manner in which they
had brought forward and supported the Bill.--(Hear-/--
As to the particular expressions about the " whisper of
faction," he could not withdraw those weeds, for he re-
peated what he must firmly believe, that the opponents of
reform constituted a faction, and that such opposition, or
faction, was as a whisper against the voice of the nation,and
that such voice must prevail. He thought, after all that
had passed, that nothing was more clear than the fact that
the expression of the nation was decidedly for parliamentary
reform, (loud cheers) and he did consider that the opposi-
tion to it was the whisper of a 'action. (Continued cheer-
ing.) And he hesitated not to add, that if the wople were
only quiet, and abstained from violence, the Reform Bill
would, in the next session of parliament, be passed, that it
would experience the majority of both houses ; and he had
considered, that to impress such opinion on !he people would
be the most erectusl means of securing tranquillity and pre-
venting acts of violence.
Sir 11. 11A R HINGE observed, that in speaking of the
decision of the house of:lords as the whisper of a faction, in
reply to 31r. Attwood, he considered the noble lord had
identified himself with the " Unirtis," and the consequeneea
of them. In that sense lie connected the noble lord with
the Unions.

Lord J. RUSSELL repeated that no one ground had been
shown to justify the allegation that his lettet had caused dis-
umbanees. (Loud cheers.)
Sir It. VYVYAN said that the consequences of the letter
had been serious disitutbances ; then was not the letter to be
complained of? To whom was the letter sent ? To the
chairman of an association, formed so long ago as January,
11139. lie hoped the administration would continuein office
—tor the nest six or eight niondis would be most perilous
times. The lone was replying to language and proceedings
that the Lord Chancellor had pronounced to be '• felonious'
the noble lords haring been identified with the " folotiious"
speeches and proceedings. (lie then read the letters, which
were loudly cheered.) Where was the whist,. rof faction ?
Was it amongst the abused bench of bishops ? As to the
veer of the nation—was it the voice now nearly triumphieg
in Done:shire ? Whatever might be the resnit of the con-
test thete, it would at least show the country was divided.
Greater resistance than now was ahown, had been put down
in 179:1, and in 1819; and if the people who did not ap-
prove the Reform 11111 were to be threatened and iniimi-
dated, were they to rest quiet t Could that be hoped ?
( deer.) The attacks which bad been made were monstrous ;
but he begged it to he understood that he and Ids friends
were not hostile to all reform, although they resisted the anot
malous bill. But as to the conduct of Government now,
when he saw the town covered with furious placards, and no
police to interrupt their being put up, he could not but say
that the Government appeared ready to derive the advantages
of such agitation.
Lord A LTHORP denied that he had written to the
" Union "—it was the Chairman of a large meeting—and
whatever ihe Hon. Baronet might think, he could not be in.
different to such thanks. As to putting himself in opposition
to the Lords, his opinions were known. Whatever power
expressed opinion against him, he should feel that he had
the right to repeat his opinions.—(Loud cheers.) The
'reeds just uttered reminded him of one uttered in April
last, which said that the country was against the Govern.
ment ; and after all he was astonished that the Hon. Baro.
net's wishes were allowed to mislead his judgment. After
all he had heard, could the lion. Baronet think that the,
country was not nearly unanimous in favour of the Reform
Bill?(Cheers). Ile trusted Or, as an Englishman it
would have been most extraordinary had he not expressed
1 his gratitude for such distinguished thanks • could any one
expect that he would have acted o: herwise ?:—(Hear.)
Mr. G. BA N RES considered that the Noble Lord (J.l
Russell) was particularly censurable. He also condemned
the large processions. In Pall.mall, while the mob were
waiting for Mr. Hume, they amused themselves with break.
ing my Lord Bristol's windows. (Hear.) He repeated that
he particularly condemned Lord J. Russell's letter, coming
as it did front a Minister of the Crown. " The whisper of
faction" included the majority of the Lords..-did it not ?
and that in spite of creations to carry the bill. (Cheers.)
As to the contest in Dorsetshire. according to this day's ex-
press, Lord Ashley was ten a head on the gross poll; so
that, whichever way the election closed. there was at least
division of opinion. (Hear.) There would be still more
votes for Lord Ashley, only the parties were afraid of Joan-
diaries—and was it surprising after the decision of the Lords
had been described to be a whisper of faction? If that were
the Noble Lord's opinion, he (Mr. Rink. s) would rather
belong to the whisper of a faction, than what was termed the
I voice of the people. If the Lords' decision was not declared
to be the whisper of a faction, what was the meaning of faa
don ?—(Cheers.)
Lord J. RUSSELL admitted the right of the Lords to
reject the bill, hut contended that there might be parties
who, for their own selfish ends, would combine and refuse',
to investigate the measure sent them. (Hear.) He would
not examine the vote of the Lords, but he would say that the
resistance of the bill had partaken more of faction than of
any thing else. (Hear.) As to the creation of peers at the
coronation, the number was nearly similar to that which
took place at the coronation of George IV. and on both etc.
casions those who were friends to the government were ad-
vanced to the peerage. With the noble lord near him
(Lord Althorp) he viewed the rejection of the bill as a great
calamity—not as endangering the bill. but as causing great
and dangerous excitement. ( Hear.) The measure had
been moved, as requisite, to the welfare of the country, and
the retirement of ministers would only increase, not thud-
Web, dangerous excitement. (Hear.) The ministers, theta
fore, felt that they were only doing their duty in main.
taining their present station. (Heat.) If it were not desired
to continue excitement, to prevent calm conduct, he thought
this discussion would not be continued.

Mr. GIJULBII RN said that it was impossible to view
the letter otherwise than as designating the decision of the
Lords as the ahisper of a faction. (Hear.) Not only was
the language censurable, but the time chosen war particu-
larly reprehensible.
Sir A. DALRY3IPI.F. spoke of tl.e attack on the Duke
of Wellington's house, and observed, that no pace were in
the neighbourhood. As to the letters, he heard Lord Al.
thorp's explanation with satieract;on, nut so with respect to
the letter of Lord J. Russell. As to a faction—had on govern-
ment seer received the support of a faction ? Ile regretted
that such language had been used in the letter, and espe-
cially at such a moment. (Hear )
Sir C. WET II admited that he had called the
bill jacohiniral sad revolutionary, and having used those
terms he would not shrink from them. As to the letters, he
had never read two more improper letters than thirst slgr.ed
Althotp and J. Russell. The government lawyer% would
have told the writers, (if there were any lawyers amongst
them—load laughter)—that such an as emblage tes that
of one hundred and fifty thousand people was itself
a misdemeanour. It was an illegally assembled body, as
they would learn, if the silent crown lawyers were only to
consult Holt, as good a lawyer as ever appeared in West-
minster Hall. But, a. Dr. Johnson declared that the Devil
was the first Whig, perhaps it did nut suit Whig views to

scrutinise these matters to rigidly. With respect to the let-
ters. he repeated he deemed them to be most improper. The
letter of Lord Althorp did not complain of the threat to re•
sist taxation, as being contrary to law—but only as being
injurious to the fate of the Deform Bill. Was that a proper
course to pursue ? When sets of violence were committed,
he should have expected that the government would have
called for the exertion of law and for puttishment.lf this abaci.
nonce was condoned, he should propose that the attorney and
solicitor-general be" scheduled."—(A laugh.) They were
called upon to be calm ; but if Woburn Abbey, instead of
Nottingham Castle, were burnt down, would there not be
seen some ripple upon the noble lord,' tempers—a burning
that took place on amount of political conduct—be that
always borne in mind when they spoke of the firing of
Nottingham Castle.—( Hear, he. t.) Their unstatesman-
like conduct was dereliction of duty—ard he did not look
to the government to put down the disturbances. The public
did not expect it. He now gave notice that he should submit
a motion to.morow respecting the firing of Nottingham
Code. praying his Majesty to issue a Special OM
to try the effenders in burning down the Nottingham pro-
perty. He did not exp. a that the Government would ex-
it( the laws ; but he would call on the House to do its duty
In each an emergency. If men were to have their prop rty
destroyed, as the Duke of Newcastle's b. id beet, for the
honeo expression of political opiniott, what came of the
freedom of debate ? And what hrd ther to esp,:ct, if 31i-
nista, quit elly looked on ? Another fiction may arise, that
will destroy other noblemen's houses and mansions, for
other and similar reasons. He could t.ll the noble lord duo
there were person+ abroad who entertained the most proloand
contempt for his 101. clause. (Hear, hear, very loud, by
Mr. Hunt alone.) Then there might be at a haw: tme
the mansions of some of the Reformer+ would suiro— it
might be the mansions of the Spencers, the Althorps,l it
might be Cavendish Abbey.
Sir JOHN IVROTTESLEY rose in order. He ap-
pealed to the Speaker, if the honourable and 'come., gen-
tleman was tot grossly out of order in thug, as it we r,
pointing out as the objects of iocendiarisin the mansions
of individuals.

The SPEAKER, in explanation said, that if any len-
terms was expressed In that House, which was capab!e of
that mins:ruction' or could be understood in that sensa, it
was a breach of order, and required explanation.
Sir C. WETHERELL rose, and after a brief explana. '
tion, resumed his speech, bat with not quite so much ~he.
mence, and concluded one of the most boisterous speeches
we ever heard within the House, by as,cring his right to
give its opinion, and declaring that the opinion he had sat
expressed had bean given on the ground of his most honest
conviction that it was for the good of his country.
Mr. STAN LEY radd, It was impossible, after the rim.
lent attack t'iai had been made by the lion. and L-arrel
Gentleman, that he, as a Member of that Government,
could sufftr the allegations to pass unnoticed. He waif Vat,.
nished at the hardihood of the Learned Gentleman, how
he could attack with such vehemence that Ministry 'birth
had the direction, at a time when no other Ministry
could have the isms confidence of the country to carry it
through its difficulties.— (Cheers.) lie could not con-
template the outriszeous attack of the learned gentleman
with that indignation which it deserved; and he thought it
was quite unworthy of the learned gentleman to 'clod up
and usu.* the government with connivance at ur with in.
stigating the people to acts of violence. He did not expect,
certainly, that the learned gentleman would have beettam.
perste ; but yet he was surprised to hear the learned gen-
tleman's declaration, that he could use no other than strong
language of reprobation, and he bad certainly der -e so its
an eminent degree, and bad descended to the artifice of per.
vetting every feet that had been stated by his noble friend,
(lend J. Russell)—(Cheers.) He ought to have borne to
mind that the letter which had been written by his noble
friend had not been written In answer to the Birmingham
Political Union, but was an answer to an address from a
large body of the inhabitants, consisting of many than-
sands. At the time the answer was written, there was no
mischief done, and the letter was an injunction to preserve
order. (Cheers.) At that time the Duke of Newcastle's
castle was not burning ; when the conciliatory language it
contained was mails use of there hail been nu outrage com-
mitted. There WY a time, not long past. when ineendi.
seism did prevail to an alarming talent; and the then mi-
nistera did not interfere, but abandoned their posts, and left
it to their successors to calm the public mind, and which
they haddone ; and yet that Getreinment, who aced with
so much firmness when the former &Mishits:ration had
abandoned the country, had now teen made the tibia of
such an attack. (Cheers.) It would have been time
enough to have made the attack when they had found
that the Government had refused to use the consti-
tutional means which were placed in their hands to put
down the disturbers; but lie was satisfied that no such
attack would ever be called for by the conduct of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers.
Mr. PERCEVAL said, he could not subscribe to the
opinion, that his Majesty's Ministers were either in con.
nivance, or that they encouraged or supported ams of mis-
chief arid outrage; but he was not satisfied with the ex-
planation that had been given of the noble lord's letter.—
When the noble lord had written the letter he knew
that the people who addressed lain had come to the resolu.
tion, In case of a eermin emergency, to pay no lases. He
admitted that, under circumstances, to a private individual
the answer of the Noble Lord might be very natural; but,
as he was situated, his answer ought to have been couched
in language of strong reprobation of that resolution. The
hon. member confessed that he was no lawyer ; but he knew
so much as to de laze that the processions which they had
witnessed to-day were illegal, and he thought the Govern.
meet were reprehensible for not having adopted measures to
prevent them. They ought to have GUMd to be issued pro.
clamatious from his Majesty to prevent them, and it would
have beenesay then to:have ascettained who contravened them,
and they could have been proceeded against, which would
have prevented any future mischief.
An Hon. MEMBER, whose name we could not learn,
thought the Noble Lord was defensible in what he had done
in using conciliatory language. It was impossible in ima-
gine that an opinion so general could be tamely borne to be
opposed by a few into. He admitted that the state of the
election at Dorchester might seem like an index of re-action
of opinion, and might be laid hold of by some as a proof
that the people were changing thew opinion. (Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) But he only attributed it to the consti-
tution of the county that it was so nearly diviutal, anal that
the party was strong who took an interest in retaining
the old abuses. ,(Hear.) had the decision of the Lords
been known a week sooner, the circumstanc.4 would have
been different. He thought the answer of the Noble
L trd to Birmingham was the rwtst proper that could have
been given.
Mr. TREVOR said he did not rise to charge his Ma-
jesty's Government with connivance with the outrages
of the people, but he blamed them fur not taking efficient
measures for their prevention. lie alluded in strung terms
to the attack that hal been made that airy upuu tne Mar-
quis of Ittondonderry, who, he said. had been cruelly as.
sa led b,y a dastardly mob ; and of other Peers who had bets
attacked for giving their votes accuteling to their consciences.
Ile said it was the newspapers that had been sattered to
loll:one the minds of the public, and the transactions of
the day proved that they had succeeded. Ile alluded to
the disturbances that had taken place at Nottingham, and
said, he hoped that the Militate,* would be enabled
to get rid of these difficulties. He was sure that it
could not be charged to Ilunourable Gentlemen on his
side of the House causing eine outragts : for it bad
been none of them that introduced the It:torin
and laughter)—or had caused the agitation of tie public
mind_ by so great a charge. lie again in bites ter usin-
veigh& against the vile press, which ha said ought to be
restrained, and the meetings of Birmingham, which he said
I ought to be put lawn, or be was sure they would be brought
so that degree that they would not hesitate to imbrue their
hands in the blood of that who from conscientious motives
had voted against the resolutionuy and jacubinical nits.