Star.
London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

n:oad, as well as by other distinguished persons. The cues of Knares.
borough and Steyning would not easily be forgotten ; and it was pleasing
to sec virtuous examples offered, not only by our loftiest dukes, but
also by our poorest freemen. If gentlemen wished to know whether
the county of York resented the projected invasion of its territorial in-
tegrity, he could only say that a feeling of approbation more general
.end complete had never attended any measure than that with which
re present plan was received in Yorkshire, where it had been termed
the great charter of the 4th William. In proof of this feeling he re.
fe:red to petitions, which he had already presented, from various Awn
in the e.-unty, which had from 50 to 60,000 signatures attached to them,
.o:t! also to the present petition.
DUNCOMBE said he would not copy the example of the noble
ioru. dad turn his back on the Speaker, and address another part of the
:louse [looking up at the gallery] where there might he something more
attractive (hear, hear). As to the county (Yorkshire) meeting, he nn.
lcrstood it was a complete failure, whc:her as regarded numbers or what
:night be deemed the character and weight of the county. He was told
:here was not more than 1,000 or 1,300 persons present, and at no time
mote than 3,000, including idlers and those who were collected by the
Assizes; and that in the-Castle-yard, which was capable of holding
10,000 persons. The bill might well be popular in Yorkshire, or some
parts of it, since it was to send more members than heretofore ; but be
-vu against the extensive disfranchisement of the measure. It went most
extensively to deprive poor men of their votes, besides wholly dis-
ranchising so teary places. (Hear.)
Mr. S. WORTLEY protested against this petition being considered
..s ndicarive of the sense of the county of York on this subject.
Ar. SYKES asked whether any one pretended to say that this sub-
ject was not popular in the county of York? (hear.)
Mr. D NCO M BE—I never said any thing of the kind, that the
:neature was not popular.
Mr. SYKES—Then I did not very well understand the hon. mem
lar—(hear and a laugh.) lie maintained, that from the absence of
opposition, some indication might be taken as to the feeling of the
county ; and the sentiments evinced in every town and village where
the question was agitated. completed the manifestation. They all
said, and truly, that the question was—" Should there be a legislature
of King, Lords, and Commons," or " King, Lords, and borough-
owners ?" They decided against the " borougbmongers," and were
or " King, Lords, and Commons."

•
Mr. F.ISE objected to the measure, and could not believe that the
ptev4 sanction such disfrAnchisement, and the taking away of
iota hum the ma of the people, " from the hewers of wood and the
chawers of water."

:11r. WITH ELL declared that the subject was most popular through-
out Yorkshire.

Lord MORPETH, in moving that the petition be printed, thanked
colleague (Mr. Duncombe) for the correction in reminding him that
he had not always directed his address to the Speaker.
Mr. SADLE It bore testimony lo the thinness of the meeting at York;
former meetings had been much fuller.
Lord HOTHA 51 repeated Sir R. Peel's complaint, that according to
the calculations in taking the population of " boroughs" instead of
:hat of " parishes," much injustice was threatened. The place he re.
presented (Leominster) was so situated; the borough had 3,000,
but the parish upwards of 4000 persons in it.—( Hear.)
Lord ALT HORP replied that if any such error had resulted from
fellewing the population returns of 1821, the Ministers would gladly
correct it ; this would not be affecting, but sustaining the principle of
the Bill ; but this was not the stage for discussing the point.
Ordered to be printed.
Lord MORPETII presented 76 petitions from places in Yorkshire,
&e. and for the Member for Beverley, 115 potions from Wales, &c.
ngeitiv: the negro slavery.

COAL TRADE OF LONDON.
Mr. F. LEWIS brought in a bill for the better regulation of the
vend of coals in the port of London. (Hear.) In moving that it be
rad a fint time, he spoke of its importance and provisions. By some
extraordinary proceeding, coals in London were far dearer than any
where else, whether it was Dublin, or whatever other place might be
seieeted. When it was recollected how vast a proportion of the people
were collected in and about the metropolis,this excessive dearness of coals
was a serious evil. There might be circumstances that would somewhat
:aid to the prices in London, but it was the duty of that house to see
that the pricts were not increased still farther by any legislative
tnactinents. (clear.) Inquiries bad been instituted, and there was not
inembnr of the committee who had not agreed that the 47th of
G,.0. 111. for regulating the trade, introducing coal meters, &c. had
niat;rially ircreased the evils. (Hear.) It went to regulate the trade by
I::eters, &c. in a very grievous manner; this interference between the
teller and buyet was most pernicious. He, by the new bill, sought to
(filet the abolition of the city meters, and thus leave the seller and the
merchant to deal as they could. He was glad to be able to add that
the city authorities had supported these views fully, fairly, and sincerely.
(Hear.) The bill provided that the dues for the Orphans' Fund and
the city to be taken by the ton, not the chaldron, and that the amount
henceforth for both to be Is. and for the market Id per ton. This had
the sanction of the city authorities. The duty (we understood him to
state,) to be wholly collected by the Custom-house. The vessels would
give their tonnage, and thus compound with the Custom-house. At
present the collier was not allowed to employ men to discharge the'
vessel; that would be altered—the parties would be entitled to employ
theft own men. The bill would also alter the system of transferring the
curl from the wharf; that system interfered between the seller and the
puelia-er, and opened the door to many frauds. The bill also pro.
posed that the coal should be sold by weight, as was the case in almost
all cites, except London. He then spoke of the system of destroying
each coal near the pit. in compliance with custom ; and that chiefly
resulted am the system and advantage of breaking coals. Let them
establish the system of selling and buying coals by weight, and this ex.
tm.,ant plan, which tended to keep up the price, would be materially,
wholly corrected. Each cart was to have a weighing machine
with it ; and at the wharf there would he a weighing machine provided,
In,: thus the weight of the waggon could afterwards be deducted, and
tar weight of the coals so ascertained. This was to be free of expense
v, the purchaser—and the plan would put an end to the system of
:oal.meters. (llear.) Fur those persons, whose services would
be dispensed with, he had proposed to make some provision. The city,
tt sas arranged, would have to •crovide for the meters out of the penny
tuts, which poduced (we think he said) eleven thousand pounds a year,
and when the lives of the meters should have fallen in, that would allow
of a reductiuu of sun one penny. lie felt himself bound to say, that
throughout these arrangements the city had behaved with the utino.t
(lieu.) The duty imp.sed by this Bill, which was now
Lrought down to a minimum, and lower than he expected ever to see,
would be collected in the easiest manner. He concluded with moving,
that the Bill beread a first time .

Alderman W.lll'H 111 A N- Observed, that the present system had
kti to the greatest frauds: coals charged Ss. in Dublin were charged at
14s. to the Londoners; he meant the same bolt of coal. ( Hear.) lie
'poke of the small coal. A recent action had exposed such ttausavion.
Mr. Ald. THOMPSON said the metropolis anti the country would
be under the greatest obligation to the Hon. 3lentbcr for this bill. As
the London 'cis were answerable for an outlay to the extent of about
1000,091. it ears requisite to take care that nothing was done to injure
the stability of that engagement. As to the proposed abolition of the '
,flip-meters, ha tioubted much its policy ; besides there must be some per- '
sons to perform their duty. Coals were cheaper in Dublin than in Lon- I,
don. because there was not near so much expense in conveying them to
Dublin. He feared this measure, good as it was, would not materially
!educe the price of coals inLondon; he meant so long as the great com-
a:nation in the North continued. (Hear.) If certain quantities had
been delivered fr.= the pits the vessels were obliged to wait till the
Lest mouth adore they coald get a supply. That was a disgraceful
,•oatbinati9n, and the government ought to direct all its attention to
break it up. As there was one member of the government interested in
the,e matter:, it was to be hoped that he would show his disinterested-
.ls by aiding such object. It was desirable to throw the trade as
open as possible.
Mr. Alderman 'WOOD said the allowance would not defray the com.
pcssations. He contended that the reductions of the duty had already
ticen felt by the public.
Sir M. RIDLEV contended that the observations of an hon. Alder.
man (Thompson) regarding the coal-owners, were unfounded, unjust,
unbecoming the person alicded to, and the person using them. He
'aid there was no instance, evert during the greatest frost, that there was
got arapk supply of coals in the London market. There was no traria-
lion of price at the pit's mouth ; and if there were changes, or extra
'Tice., they recoiled from pers.,ns between the purchase at the pies
noses, and the sale in the London market.
Mr. 11. GORDON said, was he to understand that the system of re-
4ulating the vend in the river was discontinued, or to be discontinued?
Lord 110 WICK said, it appeared to be forgotten that there were
"ttler panics, who nothing to do with the regulation of the vend.—
There were coals near his father's house, within a quarter of a mile of
the sea, which were hot sent to marker, because it would not be pro.

Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said he would not be 'livened by
t"iints from performing his duty. He did consider the combination in
e Kurth an odious monopoly ; and he should not apply to the Hon.
Bart. to tell Idol ;tow to perform his duty, but should ever denounce it
s an odious menoi.oly.
The Bill was then read a first time, and ordered to be read a second
::are on the 18th of April.
Lord HOWICK postponed the Emigration Bill till after Easter.
CIVIL LIST.
Lord ALTHORP, in moving that the civil list report be peed to,
"4 that he should not pledge hiniselfnow, as he had observed on Fri.
I.ly, that he would not pledge himself to any reduction of the salaries of
Luschold officers ; when the bill was brought forward would be the
;.tep"r time for 00:ciding on the subject. (Hear.)
Col. DAVIES said he should throw no obstacle in the way of this
imposition. He thought towards a Sovereign who had acted so well,
they ought to conduct themselves with a large and liberal hand. He
thuuld 11X: to have some new regulation regarding the pension list. His
4141e,Ey had apparently 75,0001. granted
,while the whole of that sum
Ma' already disposed of. (Hear.)
54" r G. %VA REENDER did not think that the sum allowed to his
",ty suflici.:nt to support his establishment. He did not con-
the allo.t•ance to his: Majesty came out of the pockets of the

people at all; for it wu a fact that the sum voted was not equal to
the surrender that bad been made by his Majesty of his heroditary re-
venue. If any proposition should be made to add something to the
privy purse, he (Sir G. Warrender) would most assuredly support it.
Sir H. H A RDINGE said that be would support the views of his
Majesty's Ministers on the subject.
Lord DARLINGTON said he would be ready to support all that
was necessary to uphold the dignity of the crown ; but he thought
that the household officers could admit of being curtailed, and he did
not think that a reduction of 20 per cent. was too much.
Mr. BRISCOE thought that no pensions should exist hat for ser-
vices really rendered to the country, and that these should be so ar-
ranged as to come under the control of the house. He would support
that reduction because he did not consider that it would at all be to
inconvenience his Majesty.
Mr. GRATTAN (we believe) remarked that his :Majesty's Ministers
had come in on a pledge of retienehment, and he reprobated the idea,
after a Committee had been appointed, that the recommendation of that
Committee should not be attended to. He, upon principle, would sup-
port that recommendation.
Mr. CURTEIS condemned the use which the Honourable Secretary
for Ireland had made of his Majesty's name, in saying that it
would be an insult to his Majesty ; and when the proper time ar-
rived he (Mr. Cute's) would divide with the honourable member for
Middlesex.

Mr. WILKES made a few observations in opposition of the reduction.
Mr. HUME said, he dissented from the hon. member who had said
that lie would support, even profligately, the dignity of the Crown. He
(Mr. Hume) would never be profligate in his vote in that house. He
likewise dissented from the hon. hart. who had said that what was given
to his Majesty did not come out of the pockets of the people. His Ma-
jesty had only a life interest in the hereditary revenue, and it was not
an act of justice that that should be embarrassed by being engaged be-
' yond the life of Lis Alajesty. He would never consent to giving the
addition proposed, but the time had not yet arrived to divide the house
on the question. (Hear, hear.) He thought the household expendi-
ture ought to be reduced, and he would be very much disappointed
if his .Majesty's Alinisters did not act upon the recommendation of
the Committee. He objected most to the existing state of the pension
list, for that really took from the dignity of the Crown. He would
even be contented if the pensions were Lift in the hands of his Majesty,
but the fact was that all the pensions had been granted by Ministers.
When the bill came before the house, that would be the time to examine
more nearly the pensions. The Pension List ought to be cut off from
the Civil List altogether ; and some arrangement should be made which
' would prevent individuals from receiving pensions who had large pri-
vate property. In the mean time, lie would merely content himself
with entering his protest against any additional grant.
Mr. CALCRAFT said that the mode of proc.mling was not creditable
to either aide of the house. It was now nine months since the accession,
and the civil list had not yet been provided. For himself he would not
vote for more, nor would he vote less, than the original sum, because
that sum was the same that bad been found to answer the purpose for
many years; and he had seen that when attempts were made at indis-
creet reduction, that that house had been applied to, to relieve the civil
list from debt, and he would do nothing that was to disturb a system
that had been found to work well for so many years. His Majesty
bad the credit of a much larger income than was really available
at his own proposal. Ile (Mr. Calcraft) had never heard that his Ma-
jesty had been offered an outfit for the Queen, and if such a provision
was not made her Majesty must be involved in embarrassments. He
would suggest that the Queen should be placed in the same situation
as former Qum's. Making a provision of 73,0001. for the pension
list was merely placing a barren sceptre into his Majesty's hand, be-
cause it was all anticipated, and if his Majesty wished to grant a pen-
sion of 401. on his own account, he had not themeans provided for him;
no King had ever before been so confined. He (Mr. C.) would be wil-
ling to make a grant for his Majesty's private purposes.
Sir It. INGLIS made a few observations.

An lion. MEMBER said he hoped that his Majesty's Ministers
would not press their views on the question.
Sir T. FR EEM ANTLE said, that he thought his present Majesty
had done more for his time than most Kings had done, and he had
been worse treated than any other King.
Mr. ROBINSON did not see the utility of voting more than his Ma.
jcsty was willing to receive. He thought it inconsistent in the Minis.
ters to proposean addition of ten thouund pounds, which was only to
be dispensed among the officers of the household. lie considered that
the honour was great of itself to any noble family to be servants of
the Crown. (Hear.) The pension list was as well understood
by the public as it was by the honourable members ; and they knew
that it formed no part of the provisions for the King. He regretted
that the last civil list had deprived the house of granting to the King
the means of rewarding his servants by pensions to such whose services
he had approved of.
Mr. T. B. COURTNEY thought it improper that the pension list
should he so often spoken of, and still that examination into it should
be deferred. He disapproved of the manner in which the civil list had
been divided, and said, that it had never been explained.
Lord A LTHORP, in explanation, repeated that he would decline
to give any pledge.
Sir JONEPH YORKE said his Majesty would be placed in a very
disagreeable situation were any Government not to appropriate the
reduction of the Committee in the indirect manner, intended by the
Noble Lord.

Lord ALTHORP could not believe that any Government would so
act.

Mr. O'CONNELL thought it singular that any member should
propose an outfit for the Queen when rejectd by the King. The best
service to be rendered to the King was to make him popular among the
people by lessening their burdens. (Hear.) With respect to the Irish
pensions, they had never been fairly laid before the house. It appeared,
for instance, that a barrister in Ireland, who was generally Counsel for
individuals prosecuted by the Crown, received a pension of 3001. which
was discovered only after his death. Two newspapers, the Patriot and
the Correspondent, had also been long in the receipt of pensions, which
did net appear in the returns. Amongst all the Irish pensions he could
not find one, with the exception of that to the family of Lord Rodney,
which had been merited. Formerly the Catholic barristers, for fear, no
doubt, of their becoming agitators, received pensions. One gentleman
received no leas than three of these pensions. If a division took place,
he should support the report of the committee.
Mr. G. PRICK was surprised that the wonderful results which
were to attend a Seieet Committee, should end in the paltry reduction
of 12.0001. Parturient monks nasectur ridiculus mus: and when
this miserable reduction was rejected by Ministers, he trusted the
people would be able to distinguish between the real friceds and the
professors of economy.—(llea.)
Mr. LENNARD said the chief merit of the Committee was esta-
blishing the principle, that a large sum, about 400,0001. or 800,0001.
not et nnecteil with the King, should be separated from the Civil List.
Mr. GOULDURN asked the noble lord in what manna he intended
to provide for the charges which he had sepal:iced from she civil list.
The noble lord had been represented to state, that the office of auditor
of the cavil 144 was a sinecure. This statement had caused great pain
to the gentleman who had held that office.
Lor.l A LTHORP intended to move the charges alluded to, sepa-
rately in a coniniiitee of the whole house. He had used the expression
sinecure, but without the least intention to hurt the feelings of the
firmer auditor, applying the word to the office, not to the bolder.
Mr. Pll IPPS asked whether the noble lord was now satisfied that
the duties of the office were discharged by the auditor, not by his first
clerk ?

Lord A LTIIORP was satisfied that the gentleman had discharged
all the duties required in his office, but they might be discharged effi-
ciently by the first clerk.
The resolutions were then sead a second time.

Mr. HUME gave notice, that when in Committee he should move
a reduction in the allowances to the junior branches of the Royal Fa-
mily, and proportionate to the reductions which were taking place in
allowances generally.