Star.
London, England, 1807-03-27 00:00:00

lons in favour of Catholics. Far from it.

Within

thefe few days even, he had authority to fay, that
they came into Council with their judgments unfet.
tered. He would, at the fame time, acknowledge,
that it was not their intention to prefs any meafures
of that nature, except neceffity required it. He did
entertain hopes that fuch a degree of farisfaetion
might be given to the Catholics by his Majefly's Re-
prefentative in Ireland ; he did hope that they would.

find that fecurity in the C ,nllitution of the Cabinet,
that the) would not find it necelfary to fir the crlef-
tion. His objeet, and the ohjeet of thofe who ailed
with him, was to knit together all claffes of his Ma-

jelly's fubjeets in that country, by a mild and conci• i
liating Government. He entertained hopes, that
fuch a fyltem would fuperfede the neeedity of agita-
ting
the qriettion, particularly when it was known
there were nbjeCtions to it in a certain quarter, that it
would be firongly oppofed in Parliament, and that
there was not any profped cf fuccefs for fome time.
Accordingly they took meafures to prevent the revi- 1
val of the question, and they fricceeded lag year
fymptoms, however, of that dillurbed date,
which, in hi, opinion, could have been bell prevent.
ed by that meafure, broke cu . To the honour of
the N , uDuke who
INoble
were compofed, not by having recourfe to harfh
meafures, but by civil jullice alone. The attention
of Minifters was loon after called to the fituation of
Ireland, by the reprefentations of thofe who had the
heft means of afcertaining the Rate of the public mind
in that country. Other circumstances bad alfo occur-
ed, which induced them to depart from the determi-
nation they had formed. The total de.ftrui2ion of
the power of Pruffia, and the eftablifhment of the
power of France, in points particularly dangerous to
this country, made it the more neceffary tor them to,'
do every thing in their power to strengthen the coun-
try.
It was their duty to look to two contingencies
—peace between France and the Continent, and a
continuance of the war with England. What, in fuch
a situation, would be their belt courfe of policy ?
Would it not be to augment this force, and diminith
whatever danger might be apprehended from any
part of the Empire ? What more effectual mode could
they adopt of doing that, but by purfuing fuch mea-
lures as would induce the fuperabundant population
of that country to enlift in the army and navy of the
Empire ? Such was the policy of Lord Chatham,
with tepee to the Highlands of Scotland. That
great Statefman recommended that every exertion
firould be made to induce the people of that partica•
tar part of the country, to engage in the fervice of I
the United Kingdom ; and the happy confequences of
his advice were loon evinced in the difappearance of '
every fymptom of difcontent and turbulence. Such,
in fome meafure, was the Rate of Ireland at this
day•—a country rifling rapidly in manufaCtures, in
commerce, in agriculture, and more rapidly (till in
population. He thought, and did Rill think, that
the greateft fervice a Statefman could render a
country, would be to conciliate and engage the po•
pillation in defence and fupport of it. Until firth a
t'yltem fhould be ellablifhed for Ireland—until the
Gentlemen and higher orders of the Yeomanry thould
have accefs to the army tins! navy, it was not to be
I expeCted that they would give this fupport. Could
I this be potlible where the exercife of their religi nil was
I not fecured by law, but where it was dependent on
the caprice and orders of one man, and the obedi-
ence of another ? It was to provide againfl thefe
dangers, to repair this in:laice, that Minillets turned
their arention to the fut)jeCt WI fummer, and that
they determined to prop-life opening the army and
navy to the religious diEnters of all denominations.
With this view, he thought the meafure now before
the other Hi.ufe neceffar y. There was alfu another
reafon—they were not fo fuccefsful as they had before
i been in preventing the agitation of the queftion. It
was moll imprudently and unnect Warily brought for-
; ward ; and he could not forbear obferving that, upon
this occafion, the Catholics acted highly injurious to
their own intereils, highly injurious to the interells
of Ireland. Upon con:ultation 'with the Govern.
merit of Ireland, it was deemed expedient to bring
forward the meafure now pending in the other Houle.
• I They were alto induced by other confederations. The
law refpdling Catholics was different in England and
Ireland. Fourteen years ago,' it was thought need.-
fary to advife his Majelly, that certain indulgences
, fheuld be granted to the Catholics of Ireland, who
was pleafed to gracioufly recommend them from the
Throne. The Parliament of that country, notwith•
Randing any apprehenfions which might have rea- I
fonably been entertained refpeCtir.g the Protetlant
Eltablifhment, agreed to open the Army, and, as far
as in them Lay, the Navy, to the Catholics. They
paired the Bill, with the fubflance of which their
Lordfhips were all acquainted. The offices of
Commander in Chief, Matter General of the Ord-
nance, and General on the Stair, were alone excepted;
to all other military employments they were eligible.
Subject to thefe rear idions, his Majefty was enabled
to give Commidions, both Civil and Military. Such
were the words of the Al 9 to Catholics. In lime of
i war, there was always one or mote naval Rations in
Ireland, and whatever veffels were there were as
much fobjeCt to the laws of Ireland, as they were to
thole of England at Portfrnouth or Chatham. No
initance, however, of Foch appointments or cortina

Foos happened. Wir it, in confequence of this con.
tradition in the la.c, was the [fate of the country at
prefent ? In cafe of invalion, it perhaps might be
necelfary to fitift troops from one part of the Empire
to the other—an advantage which would fuperfede
the neceflity of maintaining a great and onerous mi-
litary effablithment in both. If an Irifh regiment
fhould be fu.'denly called over, the moment it !aided
at Chefler or Liverpool, every Catholic Officer in it
would be placed under the difagreeable neceflity of
continuing to ferve in the daily violation of the laws
and privileges of the country he came to defend.
He would he called upon to do ads, every one of
which might be queßioned, ant for which it might
be demanded of hior, " Are you authorifed by law
to do this t l ?" liras there any thing fo monffrous
and abfurd to be found in the Legiflative Code of
any country ? To apply a reme.ll to this manifeft
incontinency, was the (Neel of the late Admioiftra-
tion ; but how was it to be done? Were they to
adopt the words of the An of 1793. and fay that it
was fit that Catholics fhould be :Mowed to enter into
the army, but that they fhould only be admitted to
the lower ranks. What was to be thought, if after
having long and faithfully ferved the country, they
were to have the door Phut upon them, and be told,
Though you have long ferved me—though the
foldiirs have confidence in your talents and bravery,
yet aill there is fomething in your belief which ren-
ders i. iropoffible for me to truth you !" Was this the
argument of a Statefman ? If in the happier days of
1793,• when Ireland was not fo likely to become the
theatre of war as it now is, it had been found necef.
fart, to make thefe conceitions to the Catholic:, the
reafons for doing fo at this moment were infinitely
Itronger. Every motive called upon their Lordthips
to give the boon liberally, and to take care that the
arength and fecurity of the country fhould not be pa-
ralized and fettered by local rettriaions. The next
difficulty related to the naval fervice, which it was
imputlible could be limited in the manner fettled by
the Irith Ad. The objeef of the Milt Aft was to
open the navy as well as the army; and, in order to
facilitate that intention, inftruetions were fent from
this country. As the law now flood, a fhip might
be commanded in the harbour of Cork by Catholic
Officers ; and were the in the courfe of fervice to be
ordered to Portfmouth, the could not. It became
necettary, therefore, in any Bill that was brought in,
to open the naval as well as the military profeffion.
There was one other point remaining, which it was
impeflible their Lordfhips fhould overlook. In the
year 1778, a law patted in Ireland, to enable the Pro-
teftant Diffenters of that country to hold employ.
ments of any kind, civil as well as military, wi bout
any relltinion. Here the law was quite different.—
No Diffenter could hold a place without taking the
facramental tett within a certain time. If the Irish
law were adopted, he meant the law of t 793, would
not the Engliffi Diffenter have a right to fay, " upon
what principle of juflice do you exclude me, while
you are a friend to the Catholic." For his part, he
was fo much a friend to both, that he would have no
diftialion made, as far as regarded naval or military
employment. It was therefore their opinion, that if
any Bill was brought forward, it fhould be fo framed
as to include perfons of all religious perfuafions ;
and fuch was the opinion that he, for one, thought
it neceffary to fubmit to his Sovereign. In fubmit-
ting that meafure to him, the matt fcrupulous care
had been ohferved. The draft of the difpatch to the
LordLieurenant, relative to the communication which
he was to make to the Catholics, was fubmitted to his
Majetly, and met with his approbation. This draft
recited, that by an Ad of the Ira Parliament, the
army and navy were laid open to the people of that
country, and did then propofe, that it fhould be in his
Majetty's power to give commiffions, fubjea to a cer-
tain oath. They pointed out the difference between
the law of 1793, and that which they meant to pro-
pole, and having done that, they conceived that they
had done all that was neceffary. After fome objec-
tions his Islajelly gave his confent that the meafure
fhould be propofed, and authority was given to the
Lord Lieutenant to communicate, by his ,Cecre-
tory, to the heads of the Catholics, that the army
and navy Ihould be opened to them. In that inter-
view it was afked, whether it was intended that
the rettriaion reii:eoing Generals on the Staff
Ihould be -done away? and it was anfwered, in the
words of the difpatch, that it was. The Lord Lieu-
tenant's difpatch, Rating thefe circumftances, was
fent to hit Majelly for his perufal, and returned with-
out any remark. The draft of another difpatch, in
anfwer to this, was alto fent to the King, and returned
without comment or oblervation, of any kind
What were they to conclude from this, but that his
Majetly approved of thefe difpatches ? Was it poili.
ble to do more for the purpofe of afcertaining his
opinion ? What mutt be their feelings then, when they
fee libels circulated, in which it is affeited that they
have deluded their Sovereign ! The meafure was pro.
poled by Lord Howick, a man of as high and punc-
tilious honour as ever lived, and he would not have
done fo if he had not conceived that he had full au-
thority to do it. That Noble Perfon came from the
conference with a petted concktion, that he had per-
raiffion to propofe it. He was at the very time wak-
ing at the door to be admitted, and Lord Howick
told him ditlinEtly as he came out, that he had au-
thority to:propofe the meafnre to Parliament. He had
an interview with his Majelty immediately after, at
v:hich he did n .t mention one ward upon the fubjea ;
nor, on the other hand, was there a word Paid to him.
He would Ale their Lordthips whether the circum-
(lances he mentioned did not authorife the ccmclu-
lion he had drawn from them? The Bill was ac-
cordingly opened by Lord liNvick, on Wednefday,
the 4th of March ; and it was not until the t ith,
that he underitoo I force mile mczini .n
On that day l e learned they had- been minaken,
and that his %jetty's confent would be withheld.
Nothing nitre patted than exprefii ms of difappro.
bation on one fide, aid of c, ncern on the other.
Much difcutlion took place on the next day, among

thofe who were friendly to the me.tfure. They
found they had propofed a mealtre not agreeable
to his Is%jelly, and they came to a refolution—
for which he did not know t hey were perfealy excufe.
able—to withdraw parts of the Bill, and to fubmit
it with modifications. They propofed to his ?staidly
to be allowed to modify the Bill to that of 1793. a

propofal which was received with gracious sonde.
icenfion. Upon refienion, they found that the diffi-
culty refpe&ing the Diffenters was infurmountable,
and accordingly they flared, in writing, that as they
could net alter the bill as they wiffied, they requefted
that they might he permitted to drop it altogether.
Perhaps their Lordfhips would think they had gone
ton far in conceding to drop a meafure which they
conceived neceffary for the fafety of the empire. His
anfwer was, they withed to accommodate their con-
duet to the feelings of his Majefly. The meafure,
however, was laid before Parliament, where it received
the warm approbation of many perfons, and it was
out of their power to flop the difcuffinn. It was not
to be expeCled that it would he allowed to drop
without ditaufli an, and without Miniaets being called
upon to account for their cnndua. !lad they allowed
the bill to drop, Hill the meafure would come before
Parliament in another shape, and they would be
obliged to explain thetrfelaes, and !late why the fame
conciliating policy, which they recommended out
of office, was not I Unwed when they were in They
therefore felt it itegyrifiibly ncriary he would ufe
the very words they employed, humbly to fubmit to
his Majefly a reprefentation as to their future con-
do& They did not, in the wrads of the libel which
had been ciiettlated refpeCting this tranfaCtion, Rate,
that they mutt referee to therrfelves the liberty of
fubmitting to his Mmjelly fuch meafures as they
thought necelfary with tripe& to the Catholics, but
of fubmitting them to his Majefly fir his skim:—
Upon their three weeds he laid a thong emphalls,
becaufe, for obvious purpoles, they were omitted in.
the gaatb!ed extra& publithed in the papers. They
alfo teferved the privilege of explaining themfelves
whenever this fubjeCt Ihould be brought before Par-
liament. The anfwer was a gracious acceptance of
what they propofed, accompanied with an expteflion
of regret, that any neceffity fhtaild arife for avowing
fuch °pillions to Parliament. To their utter afia-
inifhment, however, they were boon after called upon
to give a written pledge that no further concellion to
the Catholics Ihould be propofed. A more painful
condition could not have been irnpofed upon any fet
of men. What would be their fituation, if they
wets: to be bonna by their oaths, and fettered at
the tattle time by a written engagement ? Were
they to withhold that advice which they mi"ht deem
neceffary for the fafety, nay the very exittence of
the empire? What would be the effe& upon the Con-
Ititution ? Could it craft if fuch a principle were re•
cognized, as that Minifters were rafting upon a writ-
ten pledge of the nature he had Hated ? Suppofe
the exittence of Ireland at flake, and islinifters were
called upon to account for their conduct, was he to
jullify himfelf by faying " Oh! that corner was torn
out of the mars of the Empire which was committed
to my keeping." Would not the recognition of fuch
a principle ILike at the very root of the Conliitution,
overturn the maxim, that the King can do no wrong
—hut that his Minifters could, and re-eßablifh that
mciiiirons and diabolical principle, by which a So-
vereiga was I:7ought to the bar of his fubjeCts ? He
would not take up more of their Lordfhips' time.—
When it pleated his Majeay to call him to his Coun-
cils, he accepted the invitation, not as a ma:ter of en-
joyment, hoe as a matter of duty- He should affure
his fuaceffors whatever they might think, that they
neither went to " a bed of rotas" nor have they left
one behind them. As to Ireland, he would fry, that
if any other fattens was adopted there than that which
was fo happily purfued by his Nohle Friend near
him (Lord Hardwicke), and the Noble Duke who
fucecetied hirr, that country won!d be in immenfe
danger. If ever thole religious animolities were re-
vived, which had produced loch extraordiattry ex-
ertions of the authority of Government, it would,
be feared, be impoffible again to allay and compofe
them.
Lord SIDMOUTH role for the pitrpofe of aging
that the Administration would never hare prupofed
the meafure, unlefs they conceived it met with the
approbation of his Majelly. The mifreprefentations
which had gone abroad, had rendered it neceffary
that his Noble Friend Ihould have folicited permiffion
to fpeak the truth, aad the whole truth, before their
Lordfhips. He was anxious to uphold that facred
principle of our Conaitution, that the King can du
no wrong. There was certainly great mikuncep-
Lion ms one fide or another, and he was therefore in
duced in folicit their Lordfhips' attention. He was
addrefling them under the conflru&ive liberality of a
pet million not granted to him, by; to the Nobleßaron
Who fpnke Wt. The draft of tire difpatch alluded
to was fubmirted to hi; Majefly on the toth of Febru-
ary, and it certainly did embrace the propofition that
the Mt of the !rah Parliament thruld he adopted. In
the difetiffi• o which took place on that fubje& he Rated
that there was no option between repealing the Aft
of T 793, nr going that length. It was his opinion that
no dittinetion Ihould be made between the Englifh
and Irifir Catholic. It was under flood by the perfon
who tranfmitted the difparch, that the principle of
the A& of the Mal Parliament wowed be adopted, and
that the refiriations would be done away. Mr. Eliot,
however, had his doubts ; and in confequence ,of a

quetiion Fut to him by Mr. O'Connor, whether liifh
Catln lies would be ctpable of lseing appointed Gene-
rals on the flaff he wrote over for frelh infirufliont.
The anlwer which was returned to him, was this,
that it was intended every military fituation fhould
be completely open to them. He Ihould with to fee
the man who carried the principle of toleration far-
ther than be did, but he would always regard the
diainaicn between toleration and power : the one
was the tight of every man in a free, country, the
other was a delegated troll emanating from the fu-
preme authority of the (late. He always thought
that any conceflion as to the latter towards the Ca-
tholics, inflead of preventing difcontent, would pro-
mote it ; and that if the appetite for power of there
petforis were fed an that way, they would never be
fati,fied until they had devoured the Eftablifhed
Church, and perhaps the Csnflitution. He would
take his (land at the (pot where it was left by the
pnion ; and as he had (hewn an abhorrence of fit-
ting up a Itandard for difference of opinion, yet he
. did feel what was due to the eaablifbment of the
Femur, and he would not expore it to danger, as he

cnneeived would be the cafe, by it:creating the power
of the Catholics. Phis was a danger apprehended by

Citric of the wifefl and belt men that ever
When he became a part of that Adminillrmirm which
was unhappily diffolved (he Paid unhappily, becaufe
he confidered their fervices important to the bell. in-
terefls of the nation), he Bated diftinaly that nothing
fhould fetter him as to the Catholic quellion. On
that principle he had aelted, and to that he would
adhere, becaufe he conceived it to be necelfary to the
liberties of the country, and to the maintenance of
the Conflitntion in Church and State.

Lord HAWKESBURY knew that the enlightened
principles upon which the Noble Vircntint (Sid-
mouth) had ailed, were not likely to he deferted by
him ; and he felt great fatisfaCtion on that account
that he ( Lord Sidmouth) had a feat in the late Ca-
binet. He knew that the opinions of the Noble Vif-
count were conformable to his own, that he would op
pore a barrier to any encroachments, and that the
eflablifhment could net be broken down as long as his
Lordfhip complied a part of his Majeity's Executive
Government. Whether fuch a dilcuffion could he
avoided, under all the circumstances, he could not de.
tcrmine ; as it was, he mulct meet it, and he fhould en-
deavour to do to with candour and truth. Much had
been Paid of reports of publications upon this fuhjed,
refptffing Cabinet minutes, and other matters of pi i-
yacy and confidence. if there bad been any titillate-
ment, he did moil lincerely regret it, but he had no
difficulty in avowing, that it was a matter of general
nntotiety, that rumours were circulated both contra-
dittory to the fad, and alfo to the narrative then
given by the Noble Baron ; and it appeared that they
had been communicated to individuals not conneded
with his Majefly's Government. In this fituation he
did think it his duty to impart to his Sovereign the
impreffinns of his mind, and to confer with thole with
whom he had the honour to ail, and he did ark
for his Majdty's permiffion to (late what were the
grounds upon which he ;meted ler tlae interell of bis
empire. The general fuhjeCt of the Catholic rights
was not at this time new, it has been repeatedly un-
der the confederation of Parliament—it had under-
gone an ample dirculion in both Houfes two years
ago—it had been decided by a great majority, and it
was conneded with an important traniadion in the
year 1801. The Noble Baron (Grenville) had raid
what, in regar d to this cpeflion, had been his conduit
heretofore, what it was now, and whit it would be
hereafter. He (Lord Hawkefbuty) would tell Noble
Lords what was confidered a pill view of public du-
ty, by a man beloved, admired, and he might almoll
fay adored, (Mr. Pitt.) Although he went out of
office exptefsly on account of a difference on this
fubjed, confcientiorrs and honourable as he was, when
he again received the confidence of his Sovereign, he
declared folemnly, that it was a matter he would not
prefs upon his Majerty, although his convictions re•
mained the fame; and he did this nut in confequence
of any pledge that was exaded of Mai, but volunta-
rily. lie did not draw any contrail between the be-
haviour of :he Noble Baron and of this illultious
perfon, as any reread!, but merely to thew what
was the conduit of a man, whom lie (Lord Gren
ville) eleenred as highly as any Noble Lord in that
Hoof:. He had leis relulanee in faying be
caufe he fairly would acknowledge, that he differed
from his Right Hon. Friend ( Mr. Pitt) and his lan-
guage, at the time when this matter was agitated,
was not guided by any petional confiderations,
but by the fubilnntial merits of the quellion. Before
he came to any particular flatement as to what fell
from the Noble Baron, be would fay a few words on
the itihjed of the mifundet landing. It was not his
intention to enter at any length into the Catholic
quelion, but he would fay, that he did molt cordially
agree wirh what the Noll:: Vifcount had intimated,
that if we had no Deady principle as to this point,
we fliould conflantly be exciting difaffedion. Hewould
contend that there ought to be fuch a thing as fun-
damental laws, which nothing but the molt imperi-
ous neceffity ihnuld rubvert. He infilled that this was
conducive to the peace of the realm, and to the in•
tereft of the eflablithrnent. The right of petition.
ing was a fundamental law, the trial by Jury was a
fundamentallaw, the independence of the Judges was
a fundamental law, and it was not lefs a fundamental
maxim, the: the contlitutional eflablifiament is Pro-
teflant. On this principle, the fame changes were not,
to he admitted, as to thir, which might be reforted
to in other meafares of govermnent. They might
vary the constitution of the army, they might vary
the constitution of the navy, they might alter the
forms in the adminiaration of jiillice, but if there
exiled one thing in the wide circuit of political regu-
Ilation which was unchangeable, it regarded our ec
clefiaflical ellablilhment. He well knew that thefe
would he denominated antiquated notions, ill Inked
to the liberal fpirit of the nineteenth century ; but he
preferred the bigotry of the year 1688, the bigotry
of thole who fupported William on his throne, to
all the fafhionable &Chines of modern philofophy.
He did cnnfefs, that with reference to this mealtime, he
was anxious to hear what the Noble Baron had to fay
in its defence, fince he himfelf could not reconcile it to
anyone principle of reafon or pnlicy,or to any pradical
rule towhich it might be applied. Hecertainlydiddiffer
from other Noble Lords on the great queltion of Ca-
tholic Emancipation, but then he knew the groundsof
that differ ence, but be could find none as to this qua-
lificat ian of the fame meafure. The Catholics, instead
of being tranquilized by this conceffion, would be
rendered more impatient. Then the principlewas molt
objectionable. What was it that was to be
thus told to the Catholics? He had always thought
that what ought to excite the molt jealouly was, the
power of the fwnrd. Were it raid to them, " we give
you all power but that of the (word ?" No (it was Paid)
we withhold all but the power of the (word." He
would conjure Noble Lords to confider what would
have been the effect of fuch meafures in 1688, and
the event might not be much kfs fatal now. Whe-
ther he was tight or wrong in his conjeduee on there
confequences, no advantagewhatever could mite from
this partial measure; it would not tend to appeafe the
minds of the Catholics for a month, a week, or a day.
He would now proceed to obferve upon Come matters
the Noble Baron had noticed, and noon others to
which he bad not adverted. He did feel it ne-
ceirary for the honour of his Majely, and for the
honour of the Houle and of the country, to aim at
foam precifion and acceracy on this delicate fubjed.
The meafure originated in a difpatch from the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, to which the draft of an anfwer
was prepared ; and which draft was laid before his

%jelly. This inArument contained reflOinne on
the particular meafurerefpeaing the Catholics. Upon
reading that paper, the imprellion upon his mind was
that it was meant to continue the regulation of 1793;
but this conflruaion was rot material, and he was
convinced it was not confonant with that impofed upon
it by the Noble Vifcount, but In far at lean was
correct, that ffuch was the underhanding of Mr: Elliot
with 'alma to it. When this draft was laid before
Ibis Najdty, he hated his objedinn to the propoll•
tint), and exprefred his difapprobatien of further con-
cations of this nature to the Catholics. Subfequenily
there was a long letter from the Noble Baron and
other., in the form of a Cahinet minute, wherein it
was recommended to his Majelly to concur in a more
reltrieed meafure. Now upon the fubjed of that
limitation, this inference molt be drawn-.that it was
impoffible the King could underhand the Noble
Baron and Vifcount, and the two Learned Lords, that
the intention was to make the Irifh Aa of 1793, the
general Law of the Empire. He confefred that, upon
the perufal of the difpatch the fair conclufion was,
that it applied to the lariat Catholics, as well as
the Irifh, and it went to the extent of expanding the
law of Ireland in 1793 over the whole empire. If
the intention were to adopt the regulation of 1793,
it would be right to examine a little as to the pi inch
ple of that aa. Communications were had with the
Catholics, and they were defired to hate the full
extent of their demands. They raid, that the pro-
fell-ion of the bar, that the privileges of cot potations,
and that the a, my, humid be open to them, in com-
mon with their fellow fubjeds. The objed was, to
concede to them a certain portion of political
power ; and he (Lord Hawkefbury ) would contend,
that what was refuted ought to have been grant-
ed, if the principle were corral nn which the partial
redrefs was given. The refervation of Major Gene-
ral on the Staff, or any refervation, was incontinent
with the ground on which any coned-flan was made.
The inference was mutt obvious : it was Lying to
them, 41 we do not mean to grant you all that you
have a right to obtain." At thh, this was not to he
a dillind meafure, but was merely to he introduced
in the way of a claufe in the Mutiny Eill ; then the
purpofe was changed, and it was to be a feparate
and fubflantive meafure. The refult of the whole
was manifell ; and he never law a propofition more
clear in his life on the face of the whole proceeding,
that the affent was given to rendering the Ad of
1793 not partial to Ireland, but co ettenfive with the
Empire ; and it was to be founded on a particular
(latute, and liable 'o ail the reftritlions difecverable
in that statute. Inftead of this, the meafure was
applied to cafes not relented in that ad. He was
informed that the communication was made to his
%jelly on the 3d Match, and that on the 4th the
King did conceive that he had hated to the Noble
Vifcount (Sidmouth) that the Bill to altered he did
not approve. He did not mention this in the way
of the fmallell cenfure upon the Noble Vifcount :
aded, no doubt, to the ben of his jodgmeta, but it
was incumbent upon him (Lord Hawke(bury) to fay
thus much, as he had the higheft authority for fo do
ing. Afterwards it was proputed to modify the Bill,
but, upon the re-consideration of the fubjed, it was
determined to drop it altogether. Whether it was
difereet in the Noble Baron to refign this projed or
not, mull be with himfelf to decide: he (Lord
tlawkeibury) would give no opinion upon u, hut
he should beg the attention of their Lorcithip4 to
the refervations with which this meafure was
abandoned. The Bill was withdrawn, on con.ii
tion that when the Catholic Petition came forwar2.,
Minillers were to be at liberty to hate their le, :-
melts in favour of the claims, and to be allowed, as
his Wijelty's Servants, to fubmit to the Royal consi-
deration fuch meafures on that fobjed as they thould
deem to Ise expedient. There were two parts in this
tranfitaion, and in every one of this nature, and it
was right to attend to both—not only to regard the
flotation in which Knitters themfelves were placed,
but the fituation in which they placed their Sovereign.
Then arofe the eoreltion as to the manner lin which
thefe refeivations affected his Welty. Was it not
immediately fern in what an awkward relation the
King and his Government moll flood, when a matter
like this was brought to iffue, and filch referves were
propofed ? What was it hut to divide the executive
authority, to hold their Royal Matter out as opp• .fang
a meafure his public fervants were difpnfed to fop-
port ? The Conflitution Paid that " the King can do
no wrong," and this was drawing forth his Majelly to
invidious nbfervation,contrary to that falutary maxim.
It was to call the entire odium upon the King ex-
clufively and perfonally, and to give populatity to
his Minitters for refilling his pleafure, This, then,
was not the flotation in which his Majefty fhould
Rand with his Government. Upon the unity of ipirit
and opinion between the Sovereign and his Minillers
mull depend the unity of Government and the peace
of the Country. It was not, under fuch circumflances,
for his Majefty to wait until the fubjea might be
preffed upon him, when he (hould not be able to refill
it : it became then his duty to form the refolutinn of
difmilling his fervants, with whom he did not find
that concurrence which was necefrary far the par.
poles of his Government. He was confident that
he had hated the particulars correaly, and he wculd
leave it to the Honfe to judge, he would leave it to
the public to determine, if, when his Majefty's incli-
nations were oppofed, if, when what he thought for
the happinefs of his Empire was thus refilled, he ought
to wait for the moment when affent might be forced
from him, in Read of regarding the fecurity and welfare
of his fubjeds, by a prompt determination on the fit•
tore advifers of his Councils. The Noble Baron
Paid, that when he came into office, no pledge was
demanded of him. If he (Lord Hawkefbury) had
been ;sliced, he (hould have laid, that no fuch de-
mand was nece(fary. This very queftion had been
brought under the confideration of Parliament only
a few months before the Noble Baron was in of-
fice ; and it was natural to fuppofe, without requir-
ing any pledge, that the recent difcuffion, and the
peculiar circumllances of the country, would have
prevented any Inch propofition from being fubmitted
to the King or the Parliament. He felt, as much as
the /stable Baron, the neceflity of conflant attention to
fo important a part of his Majefty's dominions as the
neighbouring ifland ; but tic did not think that half
rneafores of this kind, which took up part of the
fubjed only, and that the moll objeaionable parr,
were likely to anfwer the end propofed. In what had
paired, he had received his Majetty's inhruaions, in
conjunetio with his Noble and Learned Friend ; and

Ro/al Malta, others would be found, who by emb
ciliatory meafures (and he had heard of no others%
would avert the calamities which were apprehended
Under the circumilances now explained, it wt., thy
a very natural alarm for the welfare of his iltbiea,
was excited in the breaff of his Majelly, and he had
no alternative but to call thole Minifiers to his Coon.
cils, who, in duty and confcience coincide with him
on a rubjett that he confiders fo effeutial to the inac•
and profperity of the Empire.
Lord G REN'.7ILLE declared that no conflieration
tinder heaven fhotsld make him enter into the fervi:e
of the King without having fuch a refervation, as the
Noble Lord alluded to, upon his mind.
Lord HOLLAND went over all the obfervations
of Lord Melville, and approved entirely of the moo)),
flattment made by his Noble Friend, who opened
this Debate. He vindicated the condo& of the
late Adminifi ration, and particularly on the fut,jea
of the Catholic:.—U: thought that the manner in
which the Noble Vircoont bad fpc,ken of Mr. Pia,
and had aimed at prang him, had pronou toed
on the charatter of that Mc Right Hon. Gen,:ontaii
the revereff he could offer ; that he kad gone a
fecund time into office, retaining his miginai fenti.
ments in favour of the Catholics, and vet with otoro4
and determination never to propof: it in Pailiamett.
That Noble Vifrount roighthe a, well acquainted ;ilia
the fources of the falfe colouring of the Cabincr
Minitlers, puhlilited in a Morning Newfooper,
was with the private determination of Mr. ; cut
hitafclf and his Noble Friends were not in the
habit of difregarding their Pledges, as the Noble
Vifeount and his Ft iends had been ; and, therefore,
they thought themfelves bound to bring forward
this fubjett.
he thought he fhould (brink from his duty, if he had
not come forward to affiff in the proteCtion of church
and late, at this momentous crifis. He felt as (irony.
ly as the Noble Earon the neceflity of calling forth
the (lrength of the empire; but he did not confider this
meafure conducive to its vigour, fecurity, or report.
Lord NIO IRA faid, it was admitted on all hands,
that there had been a mifconception ; but what the.
Noble Lord had obfervcd. did not apply ; he had no. .
ticed very (lightly the ultimate iffue upon which Ad-
miniftration were to (land or fall. The Noble Se-
cretary laid, that in order to fhew the impropriety of
a pledge, we ought to Rate the exigency for the me;,
Pure we recommended. Did the Noble Secretary
know, that we might violate the oath of office, wets
we to [fate what he required ? Even a curfory view
of the state of Ireland would be fufficient to fhew the
matt argent neceflity for fome conciliatory tneafures.
He would lay,• that the (late of that country very
materially affeCteel, not only the power and glory, bat
the very exiffence of the Britith empire. His no-
tions of toleration were much more enlarged than
thole he had heard that night—that unneceffarily no
man fhould he precluded from the fervice of the State;
who contributed to its foppott, whore property and
life. were the pledges he gave for its prefervation,
Thera were certainly great fundamental laws; but
wool f the Noble Secretary contend, that there were
to be no modifications of thefe? For what pnrpole
was the Legiflative body afrembled, if not to accom-
mndate the law to the cireum ances of the times? With
regard to the policy of the mefrage, w increaring
our national force, the population of Ireland, pro.
peily encouraged, ought to produce too,ooo difpor-
able troops in addition to thole already engaged.
This alone, feparately regarded, would be an impora
tAtt confequence of manifeffing that friendly difpo-
fition. Why was the fuperabundaat population 1011,
inttead of being employed in angorent the national
firength ? It was becaufe the Gentry of Ireland, and
the Catholic Pt iellhood,woold to, t influence the youth
to devote their valour to the fervi:e of their country
uro.ler the mortifications to which they would be es.
poled. After (hawing a con-y:,rifon between the tae
Bill, and the general emancipation formerly propolei,
and pointing out the dreadful confequences he appo-
!tended if the people of Ireland were not traoquillifed,
his Lordfhip concluded'as follows—" I dray thet I
have any difoofition to [land at iffue with his Majeliy
on ;his queltinn—l am grateful for hi, condefc.Flion
and kiodnef, towards tr e, and I am fore he IS. ac.
Lusted by the moll confcientious motives in what he
had, done. I hope Noble Lords will alfo acquit us,
and will not thick we ought to have enteredinto any
pledges, or that we have negletted to do what, as
upright men, we ought to has e performed." •
Lord MELVILLE (from the Mitailletial bench,)
expreffed his fatisfaCti ,n that the tlifeuffion had beta
entered cn, and he wifhed that every petfon ftom
one end of the illand to the other, fhould be informed
of the true (late of the queflion. An illufitious pen
fon (Mr. Pitt) had been alluded to; he joined from
the very bottom of his heart in all the praife which
had been bellowed, and fo ardent was his attachment
to the opinions of that great man, that he wifhed to
make them the polar [tar of his life. He would now
advert to a part of the condo& of that eminent cha-
reefer. In the year 18ot, he withdrew from thefer-
vice of his Majetfy, becaufe he then thought that be
could not confcientioufly remain in office without
permitlion to introduce the Catholic quetlion to the
attention of his Sovereign, which he then thought of
much importance. But it was a notorious faO, with
which the Noble Baron could not be unacquainted,
that having fully weighed the confequences in his
retirement ; having alfo refleeed on the rooted convic-
tion of his Majelly on that fitbjeo, long before became
again into power, he faid, that whether in or out of
office he would never diamb again the feelings of his
Sovereign on that fubjett. Was he (Lord Melville)
r)eefienture
inthweno,ffiteheltktnhoewiNngobilheatßmarro.npftLt
hadoul
eti crab,
mbmattedne7fiallPceh a declaration, and did he differ from his
iptirsedeaecthefroofrofmo
cwe,idoerltynaysantopfemploefewiitthinhciosnpfiu
to enter into the fame pledge? Mr. Pitt adledahelininetddwil;
oppolition to his own judgment, and to the impulfe
of his feelings. He thought that it was his duty to
coat* the fenfibility of a perfon, whore mind and in-
clinations it was peculiarly bis deity to fiudy, at,d he
did not diautb the retook of his Royal Mailer by
preffing the fubjeCt. It was urged, that there we late
was an
abfolute neceflity for this meafure ; and that the
Minifters were made acquainted with circumfiances
which their duty to the Crown would not admit them
to dirclore. Was then this Bill propoled under cir-
cteugmrialyanocefsthoef imperious
anndectemaidtyth,eay agreedffeoing th
re-
linquilh it ? They had abandoned it, and it was ob.
urgency
vious therefore, that no fuels controuling toe