Star.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

18-:

PAULIAMENTARY PRUCEEDI`:GIi.
•
HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 1 :
A tehli 1
tinan from the Post Office presented an Account of the
Balances remaining in the bands of the Postmastcr-General at the
close of 3824.—Laid on the table.
Mr. MicuaLsou, front the Court of Chancery, in Ireland, pre-
sented certain Returns from that Court.—Laid on the table.—Ad-
journed till 1 bursday.

had ventured to contend for the ccinttitutional conduct
of the Catholic Association, nor did he intend to do 10. J
He (Sir R. Wilson) had been out of the country, and
had not consequently been able to attend minutely to
the proceedings of, the body in question ; but they cer-
tainly had not acted st► As to forfeit the confidence of
the Catholics. Mr. O'Connell had been called a Dictator.

.
and it was said, &mane imperi.nn cum Jove habet It ap-
peared, however, that vox l'ophli %Oats in that case vozDei.
The Association would, indeed, have been forssiiiable,
if at the nod of any individual. But Mr. O'Connell
himself was, on every occasion, only able to lead after
eloquence and power of argument had carried convic-,
tion to the Meeting. That proved that the Association
was not a belligerent body—that it had only .rcted on
the defensive—And that it was merely formed to quell
those disturbances which were the shame of Ireland and

lIOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. F. BUXTON brought in a Bill for enabling the Alliance
*Company to sue and be sued in the person of their Secretary.—
Read a first time, and ordered for a second reading.
Mr. 11. DAVIS presented a Petition for leave to bring in a Bill
to modify the Town Dues Of the City of Bristol. lie was in-
structed to say, that this measure was determined on by, the Cor-
poration of Bristol before any similar one waserightated by other
parties. The Cbrpnration gave up their right to the Public, by
reducing the produce of these dues from £6OOO a year to £OOO.
After a few words from Mr. S. RICZ, the Petition was referred
to a Committee.
Mr. GORDON presented a Petition from Aberdeen, against the
law relating to Attornies.—Laid on the table.
Petitions were presented front Swansea and Ilfraeomboogainst
the Duty on Sta-borng Coals.
Petitions were presented from the Chamber of Commerce otithe
Port of Newcastle, and from the Port of Sunderland, in favour of
the St. Catharine's Dock Bill.
Mr. DAWSON prelented Copies of Papers chewing the result
of the enquiry carried on by the direction et the Secretary of State
for the [ionic Department, relative to the Tread.wheel:—Ordered
to be printed. '
Copies were ordered to be laid before the House of the last Re.
port received by the Secretary of State for the Home Drpartment,i
from the Nitional Vaccine Establishment.
Sir J. NEWPORT presented a Petition from Waterford, pray+
ins for an Equalization of the Spirit Duties.—Laid on the table.
Sir R. HERON pee notice, that on Tuesday, the 22ci of tits.'
month, he should move for leave to bring in a Bill to amend the
laws relative to Sewers.

the disgrace of England. The Association certainly
,had extraordinary itifirience—( hear)—and he ad-
mitted it ought to be put down—( Hear, hear)—but he
an 4 hit friends differed with. Ministers as to the mew
of doing so—( flier; WO. The Irish Attorney-Gene-
rartontended that Parliament should take what Means
it could to gain ,that end,-and, with the candour for
which he was so remarkable, declared that his opinion
respecting Catholic Ernancipation was not changed, and
chat it was the only effectual measure for pacifying
Ireland. He (Sir Robert Wilson) coup) not beliete,
with his' Honourable Friend the Member fir Knare,-
borough(Sir James Mackintosh), that the Cabinet had
i entered ntir a compact on the Catholic Question—and
he must take that opportunity of stating, that the
avovial Which the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer Made last night, that he also had changed his
opinion, and in a manner not admitting of imputation
upon his motives, inspired strong hopes for the future.
What were the Catholics to think in the twenty-fifth
year alter the Union, when, though they had solicited
not so much the enjoyment of rights, as the exemption
from penalties, anal yet found all their supplications
vain? It was indeed a fact, that many of the legal
hardships they were liable to, were unknown to the
people of England. Even at present the greater part
of the public were unaware of the doubt that existed,
Whether a Roman Catholic Priest who married a Pro-
testant was liable to death or to a fine f L:500; however,
unquestionable it was,. that if the parties who had re-
quested the clergyman to perform the ceremony, sub-
sequently refused to give evidence against him, they
were punishable with three years' imprisonment. Such
was our law still in. force against the Catlealics, and
there were many others egrially awe) and unjust. It
will be asked, perhaps, has not the Catholic Cause
'advanced
? and he knew it was objected to his. side of
the ii use that it had not forwarded it so much as they
inight have done. The year before last, he and his
'friends Certainly did leave the 11:.use, but why? Be-
cause they did not wish to continu a system which
raised the hopes of the Catholics merely to blast them
with the bitterer disappointment. He would not, at'
the same time, have the Catholics despond, if victor",
were not within reach it was at lea-a within sight...
Formerly it-was alleged that the great body of the Ca-
tholics were indifferent to Emancipation. But he could
not feel an interest in the eligibility to honouts and pti-
.Vileges to .which they had no title to aspire. The Ca-
ItitilleAssociatioh had proved the reverse to be thefact,
mud the rent which that Assembly received from all
r ilaes of the people, was the best touchstone"of the
.:ss
trecurity of the great body of that community US seeking
constitirtiotterights: It was, however, rather teo
bad that Emancipation Should be first refused on the.
giound that' the 'Cathglics generally were indifferent
about it,. and then that it 'should be refused, because
`they .convinced the world that they were not indifferent:
#uch a Fate of things could not last. The llouse should
'do as' it would" lif.dOne by: If the Protestants 'were
treated Ulf the Catholics7.-' ifthey could unfold so many
glorious refordsfirtheir sei,iricea to the Coirotry—would
hey bear it "with equal patience? Our interest as well
is duty reipttred that the syitem should be put au..etl
to. Aoother point of view in which the naischieircrus-
ness of the present course was strewn by the Right
Hon. the Attorney-General for Ireland, deserved atten-
tion. The situation of that country certainly afforded
I dangerous pretext for the machinations of foreign
'Powers. It was lamentable that anything should
breed discord at home, to blight the fruit of the fair
tree of national hope. it . was lamentable that when
the Right lion. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Canning)'
had effected so beneficial a change in our foreign policy
-when he had severed the country from the Holy Al-
liance, and purified our- Councils from the a110y.03
European despotism—it was,he said,lamentable that our
domestic should be inconsistent with our foreign policy.
If war should occur, the state of Ireland was most dan-
gerous to the Empire. The application-of steam to na-
vigation gave facilities of intercdurse between that
island and the Continent. Under such circumstances,
if the standard of rebellion were again raised, it would
not be for similar scenes to those of Vitregar 11111 or.
Wexford. • At that period the Catholic Clergy were
boitileko insurrection, for the dread of the French Ile-
volution\vas .before• their eyes; the Catholic Gentry
were also then adverse to the rebellion, because they
hoped that by a continuance of peace, and by their ex-
emplary patience, the Legislature worth be induced to
concede their rights. Now, however, the Catholic Np-
bility, the Catholic Hierarchy, tire Catholic Gentlyi
Catholic Priests, and the Catholic Laity, seeps to a ma
united. The Cause for which the Association met haft
their unanimous sanction. When 'he (Sir R. WilsOn),
saw with terror the strides that the most atrocious din!
trines - were making in Spain, in France, and in BLit.,
gium, they. were not to be overlooked with respect to
Ireland. In France it would seem as if the laws were
.ft anted. to satisfy some malignant demon instead of the,
God of Justice.—In Belgium, the character of the King„
so remarkable for his moderation and wisdom, inte,,
posed a barrier to such wicked .encroachments. But
what, Win this country, the zeal of the Catholics should
take so unfortunate a direction ? He was Hot, in short.
fighting a Catholic battle, be was flaking his own bat 7
tleaethe battle of the .Dissenters, a universal. battle. 7.
11Those who disliked the ,Catholics ought still to give
their support to Emancipation. It -WAS impossible for
that measure to be carried .without being followed by
the repeal of all the tests that affected the Disseuters.

Lord ALTHORPE moved that the Cunt)? Courts Bill be re-
ferred to a Select Committee, which motion being carried, and the
Committee appointed, the Noble Lord also moved, "that it be an '
instruction to the Committee to enquire into the cases' of such per-,
sons as held dices for life, the value of which will be diminished
by the said Bill if it shall pass into a law, and to report their opinion
thereupon to the House.' i—Agreed to.
Sir E. HARVEY presented Petitions from Beaconsfietl and
Wykeham in favour of the above Bill.
Mr. HUME postponed his notice of a motion relative as persons
returned from India till to-morrow. •
Mr. HUH E moved for a renewal of the order for returns of
the number of persona charged with criminal offences, and COM.
mitted to the jails of England and Wales, shewing the number exc.
toted by summary process, extending them to the year 1824. Also
for similar returns in respect to Scirtland and Ireland.—Ordered.
Mr. HUME also moved for the renewal of the order for certain
returns relative to the imports and exports df gold and silver, and
the quantities coined.—Ordered.
Mr. HUME gave notice that he should to-morrow move for an
account of the expenditure of the Naval Votes of last year.
Sir H. HA [SINGE said, that the Hon. Member should have
whatever returns be wanted, although they were already before
the House.
Mr. LETCESTF.R gave notice, on the part of his Hon. Friend,
the Member for Essex, that he should, noon after Easters again
bring forward his Bill relating to Juries.
CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Mr. DICKENSON presented a Petition frets* she Archdeacon
and Clergy of the Archdeaconry of Bath, against any further con-,
cession being made to the Catholics. Al,, a Petition of the same
nature from the Inhabitants of the City of Bath, end ite.neigh-
bourbood. The Petitioners stated, that they had seen with satis-
fied= the concessions formerly grimed to the Catholics, but they
were now alarmed at the insults which that body tbreiv upon the
Protestant Church, and prayed that the House would hand down
the Constitution as they found it to posterity. The Honourable
Member declared that his mind was made up upon the question,
but that if he had previously entertained any doubt. recent drcum-
stances would kid him to say with the Petitioners,.that they must
now stop and maintain the Constitution as they found it. -
Sir 1. LETHBRIDGE was glad to hear these sentiments/all
from his Honourable Colleague, aneconcurred entirely with Ohio
expressed by the Petitioners. Those sentiments he believed Were
such as animated the great bulk of the people of this country, tad
of that part of them who were not, as he had heard them described
in that House, the low and vulgar. He knew them to be the senti-
ments of that portion of the Clergy and principal laity whom he
had the honour CO represent, and from them he should shortly have
to present similar Petitions, not perhaps couched in the same
words, but breathing the same spirit. He trusted that they would
have the effect of rousing a feeling in that House which should
be consonant to the feelings of so large and respectable a body of
the people.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY expressed his regret, to find that persons,
of so much respectability as the Petitioners, should put their nano
to such intemperate and .ineammatort language as that contained
in the Petition. It was impossible for them, if they had heard the
debates which had just passed on all sides of the House, to day with
leaflet that the Catholic body had insulted the Protestant Church.
lie certainly regretted the conduct of the Catholic Association,
bat he was convinced they had injured none but the Catholics.
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON should not consider that he had
deswids duty, if he suffered such a libel upon the Catholic body
as that contained in the Petition, to pass without his earnest
protest against it. It was impossible that there could be more
falsehood or more indecency than existed in the Charges made by
the Petitioners against the Catholics. He would caution the
Honorableßaronet, and other Members of that Hour, agdnst
coming forward with such Petitions t for if they conflate so to
provoke six millions of the people, they would shako the empire to
ha foundation.
Mr. DILKENSON denied that there was myth*: improper
in the language of the Petition ; it was strews and firm, but per.
reedy warranted by the conduct of the Catholics. One of the
insults to the Protestant Church was to be found in the decla-
ration of Dr. Drumgoole, that the Protestant Church, like other
arable; had had its day, and would sow soon be put an end to.
Sir T. LETHBRIDG E said, that if tke Honourable Membel
for Cott thought that he, and those Who thought with him, were
to be confined to the expression of their opinion, he was never
more mistaken. He tisought the Honourable Member would be
exceedingly puzzled to find anything libellous in the Petition ; and
he was quite sure that it was as different from the language of the
Catholic Petition as any two things could be,
Sir R. HERON felt himself bound to rise, for the purposeat,
relieving the people of England. front a charge so libellous and
calumnious, as to say that they were not disposed to grant farther
concessions to the Catholics.
Mr. MANSFIELD said, that in consequence of what had fallen
from the Honourable Baronet who spoke last, he rose to inform
him, that as far as his constituesits went (and they were pretty
numerous), there was not one mania a hundred who would not in:
street him to vote against any further concessions to the Catholics.
This opinion bad been called a vulgar prejudice; and if it were se,
he had imbibed it so deeply, that he should give such a vote when-
ever the question came before the lions,.
After a few words from Mr. W. Sono, the Petitions were
ordered to be printed.
ASSOCIATIONS IN IRELAND. • -
Mr. GOULBURN moved the order of the day' letrl
resuming the Adjourned Debate on' the first reading of the Bill I
suppressing certain-unlawful Ando:lath= in Ireland:
Sir ROBERT WILSON could not give a silent votes
on the present question, but he should detain the House
only a short time on the observations he had to offer.
iThe Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated last night
,that the people of England were nnisersally hostile to
!Catholic Emancipation. When the present state of
Ireland was considered, that assertion rendered it ins..
perative on Members to submit their opinions fully to
the House. The Chancellor of the Exchequer declared,
with an air of triumph, that no opponent of. the Bill

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Hence he believed the greater part of the opposition
which Emancipation encountered in England-:.the Dis-
senters not the Catholics were dreaded. Great Britain
was indifferent respecting the Catholits while they were
confined to Ireland. He believed the people of Eng-
lAnd too enlightened to be averse to Emancipation;
they knew that if war should arise, Ireland, in its pre-
sent situation, would beconie a hostile camp, and while hclstile can-
non were planted along the frills coast, we should be left to fight
our own battles pro ens et foci& He was aware that he Uttered
toese sentiments on the eve of a Seneral Election, or at least, that
In another year, that event would take place. Members, upon his
si4e of the I louse, might then fall if they now warred with the feel-
ings and judgments of their constituents ; but if they did low their
support, the occasion would command their respect—(Heer).
Mr. LOCKHA KT thought it mattered little what
were the motives of those who formed the Catholic As-
sociation, if it were at variance with the Constitution.

That body undertook to represent the people, and levy
money without
.the consent of Parliament. Our
ancestors had declared the Crown forfeited for levying
money without the consent of Parliament, and such
conduct was equally unlawful in any of theking's sub-
jects. He said levied, because, although the rent was
alleged to consist of contributions, itswas a compulsor;
payment. The Association had directed the Priests to
collect the money, and it was a +rely ancient practice of
the Realm to levy the pn.lr rates in that manner. Be-
fore the 3d of Elizabeth, the 'Priest exhorted the periple
in the Church to pay the poor rates, and followed up
the exhorta'ion with censures. The Honourable Mem-

ber who si oke last, admitted the evil effects of the As-
sociation, and said it ought to be put down by eman-
cipation. But what was the character given of the
Members of that body by their advocates? That they
had evaded the Convention Act, and, regardless of the
peace of society, would, if possible, evade every other
law which Parliament might enact. The Honourable
Member further observed, that the moment the conces-
sions were made, tranquillity would be established.
Witt there any precedent in history for such an assump-
tion? Mr. O'Connell spoke openly of the ulterior views
of the Association, and what he would ask was meant
by such expressions as " the mockery of paying tithes
to a Clergyman without a flock ?" -(f leas, heir)—The
attainment of the object would unhinge the whose of •
society, and open all the claims which still existed in
dition to the confiscated property of former tiioes.—
The Honourable Member tequited documents in order
tO make out a case for the ptesent Bill ; but he (Mr.
Lockhart) contended, that according to the Law of Par-
liament, notoriety was a sufficient ground on which to
legislate, and it the acts of that assembly were not no-
torious, on what did the Honourable Gentlemen oppo-
site build their character of the proceedings of the As-
sociation? If the Catholic claims, were conceded while
that body existed, what a change would be effected in
Parliament 1 Tne House of Lords would be °vet awed
by the Association—and in_ the House of Commons,
even .if Mr. O'Connell were returned, he would
And himself a mere puppet in the hands of otherp—as it was during
the reign of the Jacobin Club in France. Ife (Mr. Lockhart)
should not touch on the general question. but to observe, that if
granted, it would not be satisfactory-to those for.wilose.satisfaction
at was now sought. The power thus conferred would only ettah'm
the Catholics to act more effectively against the ChUrch
'tient, and in undermining the property of Mu country. The 801 l
should have his decided support.
Mr. BANKES, junior, thought one great advan-
tage was gained by the length to which the pierent
discussion had extended. The impression that the
object of the Catholic Association was intinlidation,-the
very moderate proceedings of Oat body at their last
meeting, the accounts of which had reached London, was
Well calculated to remove. He sincerely wisbed that
their vast conduct had been Chin-octet ised by like tem-
perance and propriety. The speech of the Noble Lord,
.who presided at that meeting, and whose' inocrerati 'a
in common with she rest of his family catild r.ot be too
highly eulogized, Mewed that whatever Orilit. be, the
decision ti Parliament, the Catholics would act in
obediente to it.,
.lle (Mr. Banker) had great' pleasure
in noticing 'that result,which would operate beneficially
through oat the country. While he w his legs, he
should take leave to tematk, that the Ihinourable-
Member for Knatesboiough, whose sk eecb formed so
large a part of. the debate of last night, had asserted
sophist! yto constitute an integ/al and essential portion
of the proceedings in that House. No one, he thought,
who had attended to the Honourable Member on the
present question Could doubt the pekM ;!ncerity of the
observation. In endeavouring to.extract or. haunt the
sting of the invocation on the address to the Catholics,
and also in defending the interference of the Associa-
tion in the administration 'of justice, the Pon/hirable
and Learned Gentleman had exemplified his own posi-
tion 'most happily. He, (Mr. Bankes). however, had
yet to learn, that- calling forth vice into cnißict with
vice, and setting opposite passions to struggle wi.h each
other in Courts of Law, was conducive either to virtue

or justice. lie .regretted that on the present subject,
which was quite a distinct one from the general ques-
tion of Catholic. relief; so mach relative to tine latter
had been introduced ; by that means the debate had
been prolonged.„ The question was, whether the Ca..
tholtc Association was an unconstitutional assembly or
not? and in his opinion an atErmatiVe-case I:a.1 been
satisfactorily made out—(Hear, ?ear). To turn from
a grave to a ridiculous subject, he would call to the re-
collection of the House a statement made last night by
an Honourable Mtmber respecting the oroer list for
books at the Uni versify Club. The Hon. Gentleman (Dr.
Isustingion) said that the Life of Harriet Wilson was
.marked accepted, while a plain Bible was rejected.
Though he represented a University, he was not anxious to appear
in that House in his academic gown and cap, at the tianie time be
thought it due to the Club in question to state that he called aorl
a.ited if the life of Ilartiet Wilson was in the Library ? at.d was
info, meal that no such book had ever been there—(dinch laughter).
Thy servant of whom he inquired, mentioned indeed that it h
been a•ked for by many Gentlemen, but that itul:ss. s Into one
hiought a copy in his pocket, none had entered the house. The
subject seemed to have been Investigated with so much nicety, he
(Mr..liankes) toot It to he a good opportubity for shewhlg upon
what loose allegations the House was sometimes required to form its
jutisiiiimt--(A laugh).
Sir J. Bermes addressed a new words to the H•nise in support of
the 1/.11, and concluded with a panegyric upon the public and pri-
vate virtues of the Lord CbaneUor:
Mr. 6 RENFELL should ' vote lllilY
present stage, in the hope •
that
SOMI
be found in it for preventing the .
%lobe Rent. lie requested, low I e \
be supposed that in doirgso he

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,e: ,DAY --7—t _C*.
. FEBIWARY 16,

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