Star.
London, England, 1809-05-05 00:00:00

PURII r OF ELECTICWS.

Mr. CURWEN then rose to make the Motion of
which he had given notice, which he conceived was a
motion of the greatest importance that could possibly
be submitted to the consideration of Parliament.—
He was perfectly aware, that any individual who at
the present moment brought forward a motion which
tended to agitate the feelings of the country, did so
under a very great responsibility. He felt this re-
sponsibility ; and yet he found himself compelled to
complain of abuses. He had well weighed the mat-
ter, and it was his sincere opinion that there was less
danger in discussing those subjects than in not dis-
cussing them. There could be no denying but that
it was the general opinion throughout the country,
that men obtained seats in that House by improper
means. It therefore became the duty of the House
to prove that this opinion was a mistaken one, if
such were the case. But if the opinion was a true
one, as he believed it was, then he thought it was
their paramount duty to remove the abuse of which
the country so justly complained. In fact, Minis.
ters must have knoWn long before the- late disclo.
sures had called for an expression of the public opi-
nion, that the sentiments of the people had conside-
rably changed respecting public men. If they had
attended to the apathy and indifference in the public
mind with respect to all those who are called public
men, they would have observed there had been a
great change of late years iw. the national feeling ;
and it was their duty Co have attended tothatchange,
to have examined itscauses, andifthechange had been
produced by. great and palpable abuses in the Go-
vernment, it was their duty to have removed those
abuses. He trusted the Right Honourable Gentleman
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would not now
say that tl. general feeling was to be attributed to the
Jacobins or their conspiracies against the House of
Brunswick. If he did declare such an opinion, he
would pronounce a libel on the people of England.
On a late most remarkable transaction, it was per-
fectly well known, that, out of doors, at least ninety-
nine nut of every hundred considered the decision of
that House to be wrong. For his part, he never in
his life gave a vote with more reluctance, or with less
merit to himself; for he was absolutely compelled by
the evidence to vote in a manner that was contrary to
the decision of the House. There was one advantage,
however, which the House might gain from what
passed upon that occasion. The people had again
begun to turn their eyes to that House, when they
SAW such a number of its Members (including many
of the first talents in that House) supporting in that
Assembly 7,ns which coincided with the general
opinion of the country. The Right Honourable
Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had
certainly not found in the expression of the public
opinion any thing particulaily hostile to him, or very
complimentary to the Hor.lurable Gentlemen who sat
below himself.— (Here the Honourable Gentleman
alluded to the Members of the Old Opposition). He
therefore thought it would be very mistaken forti-
tude for that Right Honourable Gentleman to stick
to what he could not justify or defend. About the
conclusioo of the American War there was, perhaps,
a greater force, both in abilities and landed property,
opposed to the Minister, than had at any other time
been opposed to any Minister; and yet at that time,
whatever Ministers suggested the House adopted.—
The Opposition then addressed themselves to the
people, and were very successful in influencing the
public opinion. They infused at that time into the
minds of the people a strong desire f)r Parliamentary
Reform ; but they were much to blame for thus ex- '
pressing opinions in which they were not sincere.—
ThLre was therefore nothing which he now depreca-
ted more than the support which his Motion might
receive from persons out of place, who would oppose
it it they were in place. He thought nothing could
be worse than thus waking tools of the people, to II
serve party purposes; and he hoped ax least, that
whoever supported his motion to-night would feel
themselves pledged to support it if they should come
into power. He was not for yielding any thing that
was not just to popular clamour ; but if the com-
plaints of the people were just, they ought to be at-
tended to, and their grievances redressed. He might
agree with some persons, that it might be dangerous
at the present time to take out a stone from the fabric
of the Constitution ; but he thought it would be• pre-
sumptuous to say we would not strengthen its foun-
dation. When a Right Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Pitt) came forward first in Parliament, and agi-
tated the question of Reform, he made a great im-
pression on the House, and if he had persevered in it
he must have succeeded ; but unfortunately he be-
came a Minister, and then all his former principles
respecting reform were forgotten. He felt perfectly
convinced, that if the Government at that time had
yielded to the opinion pf the people, the horrors of
the reign of terror, and most of the evils which this
country and Europe now suffer might have been pre-
vented. There was a great fond of good sense in
the people of this country, and they would not long
be made the dupes of artifice or clamour ; and the
Right Honourable Gentlemap (the Chancellor of the
Eichequer) might be convinced, that if a proper at-
tention was paid to their reasonable complaints, they
would be satisfied. As the Right Honourable Gen-

- •
. . ,
tletnan had promised to support a dame arhieh was;
similar to the present Motion, he would be very glad
indeed that he would take this Motion into his own '
hands. It could not come with more propriety from
any other quarter ; And if such a measure proceeded
from his Majesty's' Ministers, it would go a great
way to conciliate the affections of the people, and
their respect for the Rouse of Commons. It must
be recollected, that when at the commencement of
Mr, Addington's A inistration, many harsh And
severe measures of he preceding administration
were repealed, this Act conciliated' the affections
of all classes of poop e, and produced a general
dl
union in support of his overnment, The existence
of these abuses had been expressly stated to the House
on the petition of Mr. 1-{brne Tooke, and Ministers
did not then attempt to deny it. It had appeared that
one mercantile house was possessed of four seats, and
nobody could suppose a commercial house would give
.€20,000 for those seats unless for their own private
advantage. Indeed, he believed he might take it as
a thing generally granted, that such abuses did in
fact exist.; and therefore the House was bound to
vote for a motion that they should be removed. He
did not bring forward this motion with any views,
either hostile or friendly to any particular set of men,
but merely for the general interests of the country.—
As
to the appointment of Judges, he conceived that
in the whole course of this long reign the selection 1
had been made on the soundest principles, and that
no man had been appointed to that station that wets
not perfectly fit for it, He had the authority of one
who had the most knowledge with respect to the Con-
stitution of Parliaments (we believe he alluded to Sir
William Blackstone), to say, 40 It would be much
better that the oath was taken by the elected than by
the electors." The value of an oath administered to
persons of the first education would appear, from the
great change which had taken place in the decisions
of controverted elections, since Mr. Grenville's Act
placed the p )wer of determining them in Committe:s
who decide upon oath. Before that time it was generally
supposed that the decisions were not governed by 'us-
tice, but by party feeling. He would not talk now
about the common objections 'respecting the multi-
plication of oaths ; but he felt convinced, that in this
case it would be of the most important service, that
an oath should be administered to the elected. If this
were done, he believed it would-go near to cutting
up this species of bribery by the roots; for he never
could bring himself to believe that any Gentleman of
that fortune, rank in life, and cultivated education,
necessary to qualify him for a seat in that House,
would deliberately take a false oath, for any advan-
tage he could hope from obtaining a seat in Parlia-
ment. He also wished to extend the bribery laws to
offences committed after the election as well as before
it ; for he knew that corruption had gone to such ex-
tent among many of the electors, that they never con-
sidered their right of voting as a trust for the public
good, but as a private property, that they had a right
to dispose of for their own advantage. Many of them
who would he shocked at the idea of receiving a di-
rect bribe to induce them to vote, still expected some
compensation after the election was over. The merit
and ability of the candidates were with them mere
secondary considerations, and the person they elected
was, the one from whom they expected the most ad-
vantage. There was an anecdote, however, on the
other side, which he would repeat with pleasure. An
old Lady (who was known by many Members) had
two seats to dispose of. A sum of £lO,OOO was of-
fered for them, which she declined. She WAS then
offered 812,000, but her answer was, " She had never
engaged in that infamous sort of traffic, and she was
now too old to begin." There Were many other rea-
sons which made such 'a regulation more necessary at
present than in former times. It had been voted by
a former House, that the influence of the Crown
" had increased, was increasing, and ought to be di-
minished." This influence had, however, continued
to increase in an alarming degree since that time, by
the immense increase of the army, navy, and revenue
officers, which added so far to the influence of the
Crown and the patronage of Ministers, that if they
required being jealously watched in former times, they
required much stronger guards now, or else they
might completely overbear the independence of the
legislative body. Besides the increasing preponde-
rance of the Ministers, there was another prepondera-
ting influence now exerted in the House of Com-
mons. He neither wished to depreciate commerce or
commercial men, but still he thought the landed in-
terest should preponderate over the monied interest
in the House of Commons. The landed Gentlemen
were attached to the country by a common interest ;
but it often happened that the speculations of com-
mercial men met ht be in opposition to the interest of
the country. . When the news of war was received
with three cheers at the Stock Exchange, it could not
be forgotten that war also brought with it loins and
contracts, by which commercial men might profit.
He believed that men, meeting this way in bodies,
often expressed sentiments which they would indivi-1
dually disavow ; and that many of those who huz- i
zaed on 'Change at hearing of a war, would in pri-
vate '1
confess that war in itself could never be desirable
for a country. If the landed interest bad its proper
preponderance in that House, he thought the wish
would cease of monopolizing the commerce of the i
whole world, because it procured the hatred and hos-
tility of all nations. Landed Gentlemen probably
would not, though many individual merchants might,
recommend the most expensive and burdensome wars,
for the sake of securing an unjust monopoly. The
country might then lose its passion for indefinitely
extending its possessions, and colonizing all the na-
tions of Europe. There were many abuses which the
country might justly complain of, and if Ministers
would redress them they would be doing an incalcu-
lable service to the country, by bringing back the con-
fidence and affections of the people to its public men.
When they saw pensions of £3OO per annum granted
to persons of the highest rank, it was enough to make
people indignant. When every cottage; in the country
was obliged to maintain his own children, it was too
much that they should be taxed to the maintenance
of the children of the rich and great. They did be-
lieve that these things were only done to support an
infamous botongh-monger system. if this system
was weakened, it by no means followed that Govern-
ment would be weakened. Many Members , 4 Par-
liament who, in the reign of James the Sec*, were
obliged to bow,to the corrupt system then prevailing,
became afterwards very distinguished and useinlMem-
. hers I the Siete, under a bettfr Qoyernment. Not-

withstanding all that had been said about Whigs,
believed there were many now in the country w
,„
possessed the geeuine whig principles, which laid ;Le
foundation of the prosperity of the country as well
its independence. The great object in which
thought the Gentlemen on both sides should no•ti I),
united, was to unite the public sentiment, end ca;:,
the affections of the people along with them in ail
their proceedings. There were many reforms
taken altogether, would not lighten materially the
berthens of the people, but would make them much
more content to make those sacrifices which they were
called upon to make. It would be a great satisfac.
tion to them to think, that neither an impioviJent
nor corrupt use was made of their money. Phis
cons'dnation would at least serve to gild the pill that
the country must swallow. There were taxes also
which ought to be taken away; such as the dogaa;
and the taxing as grooms the servants of ciamers.—
The salt-tax ought also to be much lightened ; and
this was a relief which Mr. Pitt had given
the last Session that he sat in that House. Any thin
which could be done to win the affections of the peo.
pie, would multiply in a great degree the resources
of the country, and shew to Bonaparte that it Was not
merely our army and navy that he had to contend
with, but the whole collective force of a united people.
He thought that Ministers should not have protected
one of their colleagues (Lord Castlereagh) in oppo,
sitioa to the sense of the great majority of the people,
and that that Noble Lord would do much better in
resigning a situation in which he must fad that he
was not sepported by the confidence of his country.
After apologizing for digressing somewhat from the
object of the motion of which he had given notice,
he concluded by moving « for leave to bring in a
Bill for securing the independence and purity of Par.
liament, by preventing the obtaining seats by isn,
proper means, and also to extend the laws respectiii
bribery."

Mr: HIBBERT seconded the Motion.

Mr. WINDHAM said, he had no doubt but the
House was willing and desirous to receive and discus:
every question in a cause w!iich ought to he heard
but there might be instances in which a party ought
not to be heard at all—instances in which, a; in the
Courts of Law, the plaintiff should be non-sa;te4.
This was peculiarly the case with respect to I'm lia.
mentary Reform, in which 19 in twenty, or perhaps
900 in a thousand, held such different, wild, and et-
travagant notions, that it was impossible any ninil
could form a just or fair opinion of what they would
be at. There were some measures which aught to be
rejected in limine, to prevent the evil consequences
which might follow from giving them the slightest
encouragement. Such was, in his opinion, the mea..
sure of Parliamentary Reform ; and as he looked
upon the present motion to be a measure tending to
that, he could not avoid opposing it in its outset. He
begged the House to consider the nature of the re.
medy, and the danger of a change, which he, for his
own part, was convinced would- create greater
culties than those which were proposed to be redress.
ed. It seemed to him that the particular object which
his Honourable Friend meant to correct by his pro.
posed Bill, was to lessen the influence of the monied
interest, and to increase that of the landed interest.
Before he adverted to the first or last object, he thought
this motion ought to be rejected in the very first in-
stance. It had for many years been his opinion, that
the House ought strenuously to oppose as dangerous
and mad any proposal for Parliamentary Reform :
every system, and every feature of which that had
hitherto been produed, was, in his mind, extrava,
gantly and even ludicrously wrong—both practically
and philosophically wrong ; and when his Honoura-
ble Friend described the unanimity of the people, and
inferred that it was to be obtained by this measure,
he confessed he was totally at a loss to understand his
meaning. They were then at issue, not in point of
theory, but of fact —would that measure satisfy the
people ?
Mr. FULLER rose to order. (Cries tf Order! or.
der ! Chair ! Chair ! )

• The SPEAKER—Having called the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman to order, the Honourable Mem,
ber must proceed to prove him out of order, other-
wise he is himself acting most disorderly. (Hear
hear ! from all of the House.)
Mr. FULLER—I saw some Gentlemen next to
the Right Honourable Gentleman interrupting hial
by whispers—and, Mr. Speaker, I disdain to do any
thing wrong as much as you do. ( Universal cries of
Chair ! Chair !)
The SPEAKER—It will become the Honourable
Member to be on his guard how he commits such an
act of disorder, as to interrupt, by a call to crder, any
Gentleman on his legs. (Hear ! Hear !)
Mr. WINDHAM next adverted to the proposed
benefit of the predominance of the landed over the
monied interest. That might be very satisfactory
the Reformers would think tor him who was a great
landed proprietor. But that would not satisfy them,
a great many of whom constitute the monied interest;
neither would it satisfy the no-monied interest. (A
laugh). ,No very inconsiderable class of Reformers
who would not feel friendly to any proposition for
landed or commercial influence, but whose views of
Reform went to the hopes of keeping their carriage
at the expence of both. That description would
laugh at such a gratification of their expectations
at the measure of the Hon. Mover they would snag
their 'fingers, and perhaps hoot it. Indeed to thini
that it or any such species of legislative enactment
would satisfy them, ultimately satisfy them, was the
most extravagant of hopes. In one view, as the be-
ginning of a change, and so leading to their own ob-
ject, they might give it a momentary approval; but
he knew little of the human heart, and less of the
management exerted in this pursuit, that fur a mo-
ment could fancy that such an alteration would sa
tisfy all those now bawling for Reform, and silence
all the present discontents. These discontents
now attributed to the notorious Corruption of that
House, as it was termed, had derived in his opinion
their true origin from the love of change so lamentably
prevalent since the French Revolution, and which
the experience of the intervening period has rather
increased than diminished. But then it was stated,
that the
.present measure would have the effect of
putting dawn all that undue and improper influeacz
Which wa; exercised at elections, amf which was now
ranged under the general head of Corruption. He
would be glad to know the extent of that doctrine.—
Was it determined to do away the influence of FG-
perty For assuredly any influence arising out of

been said about Whigs h!
iy now in the country vi
ig principles. which laid ;Le
sty of the country as well .t.
great object in which
mis both sides should now h,
piep alongubli with them
csentimentzndicna7l
were many reforms which,
not lighten matei ially the
lut would make them much
,se sacrifices which they were
t would be a great satisfac.
tat neither an improvident
tde of their money. This
Ist serve to gild the pill that
w. There were taxes also
away ; such as the dogtax,
s the servants of firrmers.—
to be much lightened ; and
[r. Pitt had given notice of
t in that House. Any thing
yin the affections of the peo.
great degree the resources
:o Bonaparte that it was au
vy that he had to contend
tive force of a united people.
3 should not have protected
Lord Castlereagh) in oppi-,
;reat majority of the people,
would do much better in
which he must feel that he
.e confidence of his count').
;ressing somewhat from the
which he had given notice,
44 for leave to bring in a
pendence and purity of Par.
the obtaining seats by in.
extend the laws respectiii
ded the Motion.
I, he had no doubt but the

I

,avours conferred, favours expected, relations subsist-
which induced an Elector to give his vote on
any consideration extraneous to his own conviction of
the propriety of his selection, was as much improper,
and undue, and corrupt, as the grant of money.—
Hew then were the great County Elections conduc-
ted Had not landed proprietors an influence over
fjeir tenants ? manufacturers over their workmen ?
an influence which produced -a choice with which con-
viction had 'lathing to do? But the Hono urable
mover would probably stop short. If so, would the
Reformers consent ? No, no. They would convert I
hi: own principle into a weapon against his conduct.
They would say, and if the original position was cor-
rect, they would be so also, proceed until all influ-
enot is destroyed separate from the bare consideration
of the proper Candidate. The Right Hon. Member
ri,ei, proceeded to review the grounds upon which this
err for Reform was now raised, which he denomitia-
,A false and unwarrantable, and he trusted that
liouse would never afford any acknowledgement of
assumptions, or adopt any measure which would
Section such false and mischievous doctrine. He
.11en considered the three different periods at which
t..:s desire for Parliamentary Reform exhibited itself: '
the first was at the close of the American war, when
the minds of men were almost heated to insanity upon
the confcrmation of political establishments ; next it
burst forth at the French Revolution ; and lastly, at
this day, when from the consideration of the charac-
ters most conspicuous in the management it was easy
to see that the benefit of that example was not lost.—
He concluded by expressing his determination to op-
rose it in every shape in that House, and ever to re-
pet should the blindness, the infatuation, urge them
to attempt a relief from imaginary pressui-e by tear-
in" into pieces a wisely-framed and practically bene-
6:ial Constitution.
_ _

Lord FOLKSTONE considered the speech of his
Right Hon. Friend wholly irrelevant to the question
then before the House ; there was an occasion ap-
proaching when it would have been applicable • when
considered as an answer to the Honourable Mover,
it was rather to be thought as an answer to a speech,
which he (Mr. Windham) expected to hear, than to
the one he had heard. It was not connected with
the q•iestion, vulgarly called Parliamentary Reform,
as it di.i not interfere with Representation ; although
it would operate as a Reform of that House by itself.
:t went to correct an increasing practice that was net
only hostile u ith the spirit but with the established
usage of the Ccnstitution.• The Noble Lord then
stated the progress of this measure, and his o.riainel
wish to have it engrafted amongst the provisions of
the Bill brought in by the Chancellor of the Exche.
quer. to prevent the• trafficking in places—his desire
was built upon the notorious and undenied fact, that
a nea•ket was held at the Treasury for the sale of
*Seat,. in that Ilouse, which were not only sold for
cercnin sums of inenev, but that Members s r returned,
beeed themselves down by certain conditions, to voce
trilf.ly at the will of the Minister. He did commu-
nicate r is intention to the Chancellor of the Exche-1
cn who appeared desirous to promote his object ; •
he IrtHted, that although now brought forward in al
oieuet shape, the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Per
celed) would lee no reasons to alter his opinion.—
Tee' sense of public duty, every feeling of anxiety,
if art recover, at least to*preserve its character with
the public, called upon that House not to shut its eyes
to the uxistelicf: •of facts. There were formerly some •
way salutary acts upon the Statute Book, which in-
terdicted person holding places or pensions from seats
that House. How much more improper, and how
leble to abuse of public trust, and to the degradation
cl the character of Parliament, to see men finding
their way amongst the People's Representatives, of
t•hom no person knew any thing, nor of the concealed
compensations which they received from their sordid
si:bserviency to every command of the Minister.—
There did exist a strong conviction abroad, that cor-
ruption was prevalent within that House, and when
late decisions of that House were considered, he could
not but think it justified. At all events, if discon-
tents prevailed, refusal would multiply, and he must
conkss not without great reason.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
stated, that he did not by any means in his commu-
nication -with the Noble Lord, restrict himself to any
thing more than his determination to apply his own
mind to see whether the proposed motion.was appli-
cable, next if it was practicable, and if so, whether it
was beneficial ? He reprobated the conclusion, that
what was not denied in that House by Ministers,
therefore was admitted by them, and particularly
dwelt upon the strange conduct of a Member of the
former Administration (Mr. Creevey), bringing an
indiscriminate charge against all preceding Govern-
!emits for an alledged practice, which he ought to
hare exposed and opposed whilst in possession of
1110 means of doiag so with effect. With respect to
t,!e present motion, he confessed, that from its in-
nielectness and want of precision, he was unable
to itfh.rd it at present that calm and full consi-
dcrara -.1, to which he-had only pledged hine,elt,
and :he!ch,re did not mean to oppose its introduction.
--1 1c old not have risen to gi,,c his assent to the
this measuie at all, wiEliont distinctly
the pledge which the Honourable Gentle-
man re:ciair:'ilot those who might jc.io him that night;
.eeiougli he 1.1:1IS inclined to concur with him so far as
eeeet to his bringing in the biii, he yet fairly con-
:• he strongly suspected that he could not ill-
V(' his sanction to the measure. The Hon.
•lrsired him to beware of giving the present
put;:.;:,:.ir:2; the character of.facobitiism. Upon look-
speeches at the Crown and Anchor, the re-
pas,ed there, the delusion to which the people
ied in being made to believe that Reform
- . .eve them from their burthens, he could not
‘.e that all those things were strongly
ca!,. of .Iz.cobinism. Thii was at present
' • I.l:ei to ei:cnie and keep up the ferment is the
zf.e people. The people were told that the
f• 1 te.ommons was the only place where their
ee•re net regarded; they were taught to think.
•.leireers sat in the House contrary to the lima-
: ei.ed principles of the Constitution. Ail this pass-
:l eith the vulgar and illiterate crowd, who were
that Placemen and. Pensioners were exclu-
.: tee: Hoii..e by an Act passed after the Revolution.
r“) •ixplitnitz.ion vats given. They had not been
' es-1 :11,e. this law was pas:ed in 1700, and that it was
•.t to ,‘• in force till the accession of the House of
strick : that it was repealed in 1704, and in fact
• •L't I.lt:Yer a practical law. This the people ought to

be told, if they bad keen reasonably dealt by. Wt.
Perceval then endeavoured to clear Mr. Pitt from the
charge of apostaCy, for if the people really did not at
that time want Reform, and Mr. Pitt became con 7
vinced of this, the change was no apostasy. But the
title of the Honourable Gentleman's measure was
unexceptionable, and he wanted to give him an op-
portunity of executing his own idea. There was no
ground for the assertion, that Reform would diminish
the disposition to war in the House. The Honour-
able Gentleman could not but know that the popular
voice, at the commencement of wars, nerally went
,along with the House of Commons. The Reforme
went far beyond the proposal of the Honourable I
Gentleman, and the adoption of his measure would
not pacify them. He wished, however, to reconcile
the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Windham)
to this course of permitting the Din to be brought in,
for he differed from him as to the effect of discussing
the question, which he thought. would be advan-
tageous, as it would tend to rescue the people from
the delusion into which they were led by papers and
pamphlets and speeches out of doors, owing to the
silence of Parliament.
Mr. PONSONBY did not consider this as a mea-
sure of Reform properly speaking, but of regulation,
and therefore, as to the question of Reform he would
say nothing. He was glad that the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had assented to the measure, so far as to
allow its introduction. With regard to the pledge
'mentioned, he had never supported a measure out of
place that he would not have supported when in ; and
he was at this moment out because he could not carry
a measure which he thought of vital importance to
the interest of the country. Two things were neces-
sary to a pledge of this kind ; first, that the measure
should be right, and secondly, that it should be prac-
ticable. Now he thought that this measure, if he
properly understood the object in view, wits right, and
that it would be attended with none of those dangers
apprehended by his Right Honourable Friend near
him (Mr. Windham). If the thing turned out to
be different from what he supposed it would be, then,
of course, he could not be held by any pledge but, at
the same time, he thought it was not likely he would
change. As to the practicability of the'thing, it was
imposs:ble to judge of that till they saw it. He fully
agreed in th.. proposition that public men ought not
to raise expectations in the people which could not be
realize.i. Re detested such base arts—he never had
made use f them. and never would.

Mr. FULLER apologized for the large voice (a
laugh) tt ith which he had interrupted the Right Hon.
Gentlern (Ms. Windham) who was speaking so
rl-blv on this subject, and tracing the principles of
the Constitution to their original purity. He felt
excited, and could not help calling out to order when
he s Lw a third Gentleman near him (crier of Order,
Order) endeavouring to interrupt him. He give the
Speaker his honour that he meant no offence to him,
but, on the contrary, had always supported him
ivainct the miserable fellows who sometimes wrangled
with him (a laugh). He was of a most honourable
family, of two centuries old (loud cries of 44 Question,
question," and laughter). Well, he would come to the
question. With regard to this same swearing, it was
much beyond his comprehension, and so totally out
of his way (loud laughter) that he would have nothing
at all to say to it—and so he would leave them. (The
Honourable Member than took his hat, snack hi: bow to
Me Sfteaker, and walked out.)
Mr. HAWKINS BROWNE thought the measure
wrong in itself, and impracticable, and therefore
wished that it should be rejected in the first instance.
To give it the least countenance would only be delud-
ing the people.
Mr. BATHURST said, that he understood the
object of the Honourable Gentleman to be this, to
prevent the barter of influence for money. It some-
times happened that a man had property in a parti-
cular place, that gave him a preponderating influence
in elections, a proper influence it might sometimes be,
but at the same time this might be sold for money to
a third person—the design was to prevent this. Now
this was a proper object, it was not a question of Re-
form, but a mere matter of regulation, like the
Grenville Election Bill. Indeed this measure had less
to do with Parliamentary Reform than the Grenville
Bill, which certainly, in a considerable degree altered
the Constitution of the House. In the question of
Parliamentary Reform, he did not clearly see the evil
or the remedy. Here he certainly saw the evil, and
it was proper to apply a remedy if it could be done
effectually, and without producing a greater degree
of mischief than the evil to be cured;

Mr. W. SMITH lamented that a spirit such as that
manifested by the might Honourable Gentleman that
had last spoken did not more generally pervade the
House. With all due respect to his Right Honoura. ,
ble Friend, he must say thin he did not know what
righr any man had to impute improper motives to
those who expressed themselves in favour of Parlia. j
ni entary Retin m ; when such men as Lord Chatham,
Mr. Pitt, and Mr. Fox, had at different times ex-
pressed tlizai.selyes in favour of the measure. He did
hope that not nny pony mortal of the present day
would set himself up against such individuals. "And
now Gentlemen," (a loud laugh excited by the recollection
of the ine:oting, which the Hon. Gentleman had recently ad-
dressed.) I-Ic begged pardon of the House, but main-
tained that there was no assembly in which he would
not express similar sentiments. The Right Honour.,
able Gentleman opposite had observed, that it was
held out to the people, that an alteration in the Con-
stitution of the House of Commons would render it
less warlike. He really believed that it would do so,
for under the present construction of the House, there
certainly were persons in it who had an interest in war.
Mr. WINDHAM explained. He did not mean
to impute to his Honourable Friend any disgrace for
asserting the necessity of a Parliamentary Reform.
Lord TEMPLE coincided with his Right Ho-
nourable Friend near him (Mr. Bathurst) as to the
expediency of allowing the introduction of this mea-
sure. It would shew that while the House refrained
. from overturning their Constitution, they were willing
to correct the abuses that had crept into it, and this
he was satisfied would induce the country to place in
them that confidence which it was desirable they
should possess.
Mr. CURWEN made a short reply. He repro-
bated in warm terms the comment of the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman who lead assented to the intro-
duction of the Bill, declaring, at the same time, that
he would subsequently oppose it. He ditclaimed all
wish to avail himself of the present popular feeling,

•
for thapprpase asepiring peptlariti• and declared
hiraaeitaa adverse to thqse who depreciated all public
characters, and who declared against all' snoderatb
Reform, as the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Leave was given to bring in the Fill with bnly two
dissentient voices; and the Hon. Mover proposed
that Mr. Ponsonby, Sir A. Pigott, Lords Temple and
Folkstone, Sir Oswald Moseley, and Mt. Windbam,
should be appointed to draw up and bring in the Bill.
Upon the mention of Mr. Windham's name the House
was convulsed with laughter.—Adjourned.

THE EVENING S'I'AR.

LONDON

FRIDAY, MAY 5.
PRICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Consols, for money, n7if—Ditto, for acc. 67;1--
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PRICE OF STOCKS YESTERDAY.
Bank Stock.24l
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Long Anu. 18 5-16ths4 Consols for acc.6i4ii

The rumour of a battle having taken place between
the French and Austrians in Bavaria, •is 'again re-
vived. Private letters from 1-lolland mention the pre-
valence of the report in that country, though it is not
even hinted at in any of the Dutch papers: Accord-
ing to these letters, the French were defeated with
the loss of several thousand men, and the Austrians
remained masters of Bavaria. On the other hand a
French priiateer, brought in as a prize, and only
two days from a French port, asserts, that after three
days fighting the French remained masters of the
field, and that the Austrians lost 30,000 men, :in
killed;. wounded, anti, prisoners. Time must decide
which of these statements, or whether any of them
deserves credit. If the French statement were cor-
rect, is it not probable that we would have been fa-
voured with a Bulletin in one of the fiating-tub
con-
veyances ?

The letters from Rotterdam state, that on Friday
last King Louis set off for Paris, for the purpose, as
was whispered, of divorcing his Queen, who is preg-
nant. According to report, the Royal pair had not
slept together for more than twelve Months—but
candour demands that, in opposition to this Dutch
slander, we should mention that some accounts from
Dover state that there have been great rejoicings on,
the French coast on account of the Queen of Holland
having been delivered of a son !