Star.
London, England, 1822-02-22 00:00:00

that when that reduction was conceded a farther. re- extinction of the debt, bat Ministers' sever "hi
Judea irlailtrnot be Called for, ail thl*Piirlbisnenimit it to remain at rest. He was surprised to
would at-leagtb be deicer to • that .aieva flecessitaSs.r the resolution of 1819 quoted by the Right Hon.
'
thitt stltimat suppliciiiii,4 violating the publiciaitbs, Gentleman—a resolution amounting to a solem. n
which, however, it was to be understood, he did not at pledge to bold this Fond inviolable--(Hertr).--The•
all recommend—(Hear, hear).—Parliament, by gir.o creditors surely could not place much reliance on
ing up the Sinking Fund, would be driven to that ne- the faith of that House, when the 7 found it so voted
cessity. To do away with public credit would greatly in 1819,,and it was not in operation before 1842._
aggravate the present situation of the country. The Rut if they were ready to preserve inviolate the pub.
destruction of the Sinking Fund would have that ef- lic faith, as had been said, it aright be as well to look
' fect, and it would be a necessary -forerunner ofa how the Chancellor of the Ezehequer had kept hismore fatal attack upon public credit—(Hear).--But faith with that part of the Public concerned in land.
in making these observations, he wished not to be He referred the House to the Resolutions passed in
1811, declaring that the pound note was considered
upensdiertivsetogodod as_(arugliasinrg). thlariethken,eNeraordar Debt
et was a
were
as equivalent to twenty shillings, and that theft was
many who looked upon it with a jealous and evil eye, no depreciation in the value of gold. It would be
and.that there was a common impression that the seen,therefore, that persons connected with the landed
stockholder was a great proprietor, vegetating in interests, on the faith of those Resolutions, expected
that when peace came they should find the payeroampulenitec.e;lahnit hhearowdevinerg, uwpaswaeaetltah
faiwriticlefilunsittrniotis of • note of as much value as it had been during the war.
the stockholders; for though it might be true as with Without saying anything more as to the effect of the
regard to some, yet there were other persons holders Sinking Fund, lie would advert to the expenses °idle
of stock who were neither opulent nor idle, but, on Nation at the period of 1798, and at the present time.
the contrary, whose all was centered in those Stocks, He did not mean to say that they ought to bear an
and which all was the result of honest and laborious exact comparison to each other, but the former being
ainsdiutsrtera time of war, and this being a time of peace, they
Hlated tto dr! em,
h Viewinge_e ea
d the
not
security,leek upon -
ought to bear some proportion to each other. In
tempt to diminish it but with great jealousy ; and he 1798, the Civil List amounted to £895,000 ; inlB2l,
considered even the most distant attempt upon that £1,057,000. In the same year the Pension 1,4
which was their amounted to 12134,000 ; in 1821, it was £4.31.000.—.
The salaries for the former period an ere £25,000; for
the latter £72,000. The whole amount of the Civil
List, and other permanent charges, for 1798, was
£1,111,000. For the present year, the amount was
£2,040,000, nearly double. He admitted that ti.e
cost of Ireland was in the last, and not in the first
but there were many expenses, obviously unneces,arr,
which at the present time might very well be spat,,;'.
The regulation to which he had adverted in an eerly
part of the evening relative to the Si.anish Govele-
ment might be a very useful one, if applied as ex-
tensively as it fairly might be. With the exception
of France, he thought there was no Court at %%hies
it was necessary to have Ambassadors. Envoys cr
Ministers Plenipotentiary would be quite sufficient
and less expensive. With regard to the question as
to whether a reduction of taxes would carry with it
' any relief to the people, lie was at a loss to under-
stand how there could be any difference of opinion .
His view of the causes of the distresses of the rime.
try might be summed up in very few words. Owing
to causes, which however erroneous, it was not ne-
cessary to investigate; the produce of land did net
obtain remunerating prices, and the only way to re-
medy that was by reducing the supply to a level
with the demand, and by a reduction of taxes. The
supply would of course become limited to the extent
of the market in time, but before that came about
thousands and thousands would lie ruined. A great
quantity of capital would be lost, and above all, cir-
cumstances of the most afflicting nature would take
place. The farmer would-first begin to reduce the
quantity of labour—tile labourers would then suffer
from want of employment, whilst the farmer became
more and moredistressed till he would at length be wore
down by evils he dared not face, to the situation of a
pauper, who must go to the parish for support. This
bad already been the case in several parts of the
country, and many rich farmers had been reduced to
the state of parish paueers. Although this was owing
to natural causes, yet they ought to lose no oeportu-
nity of alleviating the temporary pressure of di,t: eis.
This might be done by the reduction of Ease., which
would enable him to enjoy some of the pi oats ca. his
farm. It was of no use to say that taxation cs as not
the cause of his distress, and therefore could not re-
lieve it. If, when the horses of a carriage were down,
some wise philosopher were to address those Id°
were busy in taking off* the harness, in terms cf re-
probation for their folly, saying it was not the :I.lr-
ness that caused the horses to fall, but the stone in the
road, he believed he would not be minded, but that
those whom he addressed would continue to take el
the harness to enable the horses to get up the sooner.
The effects of the measure which went by the name
of Mr. Peel's Bill, had worked a great change in the
currency, which must long continue to be telt. The
measures which had been passed, tending to depre-
ciate the currency, were fraught with as much mi-
sery, and as extensive ruin, as foreign invasion, the
visitation of a pestilence, famine, or any of those evils
which we were in the habit of praying might be
averted from us (Thar, Lear;.—He hoped no Minister
Would be found, for the future, capable of making
such another attempt. He was disposed to laugh at
Ministers taking credit to themselves for all the im-
provements that had taken place in some of the inte-
rests of the community. Every discovery, even that
of a cotton-spinner at Manchester, must be made to
confer honour on them. If they found, for three
years, the manufacturers in that condition that they
actually carried starvation in their faces, and misery
and suffering in their appearance, was it because it
was next year shifted to the farmer, that the wisdom
of Government was to be lauded ? However it niivhr
shew the incredible power of the country to overcome
difficulties, if anything, blame belonged to the Go-
vernment. With this view of the subject, he cer-
tainly should give every support to the motion of his
Noble Friend—(Loud cheering).
Mr. WHITMORE said, that an attempt should be
made, as for as was practicable, to remove the enor-
mous load of debt and taxes. Did he agree with the
Noble Lord, he should think it necessary to compound
with the public creditor; but he disagreed wholly
with the Noble Lord, nor could he possibly conceive,
in the present state of the country, how excessive tax-
ation should lead to low prices. Till 1775, this coin-
try had been an exporting country ; and although for
the first 64. years of the last century, the vice of corn
had been 325. the quarter, after the country had ceased
to export, the price had i isen to 455. the quarter, in
consequence of an increasiete population. During the
war, the agriculture of the country was stimulated to
the utmost pitch, and premiums had been given, net
to the cheapest, but to the best cultivated land. It
was necessary to recede to a certain point, but the ef-
fects would not be what sonic seemed 'to fear. The
last layer of expense would only be removed. He
knew a poor farm on which, during the war, .4;150
had been expended annually for manure. The case
would be, that instead of corn, barley would be raised;
and the same thing would take place in similar farms.
It was unquestionable, that the landed interest must
submit to a :eduction of from :4'o to .25 per cent.r--
But at the ba;ite time it should be recollected, dhat

roller et est triples

Circa pectus,"
•
as attended with danger, and he should ever regard 1
such an attempt with anxiety and alarm —(Hear).—
r).—
' He should therefore contrast the plans of the Noble
Lord and the plan proposed by the Noble Marquis,
and he flattered himself that the result would prove
the advantages which the latter possessed. The Noble
Lord would reduce taxation, which he endeavoured
to chew would not affect public credit, nor produce
any of those evils which he (Mr. Robinson) appre-
hended from it. But the effect of the Noble Lord's
plan was at least problematical. It might, or might
not have the effect he expected from it. The plan of
the Noble Marquis (Londonderry), on the other hand,
was free from doubt. The relief which it held nut
was clear, distinct, and unqualified—(hear,
hear).—
Viewing the case in this way, he trusted the House
would not adopt the proposition of the Noble Lord,
and that they would feel that Ministers had faithfully
discharged their duty, in availing themselves of the
excess of the Revenue to apply it to the best interests of
the State—( Hear, hear).—He was not sorry, however,
that the-Noble Lord had brought this proposition
again under discussion, because he was convinced the
more the Noble Mat quis's plan was inquired into the
more would its value be appreciated. He looked
with confidence to the result of this discussion. He
appealed to the House against the Noble Lord's plans,
well knowing its sentiments with regard to the Sink-
ing Fund, and feeling that Ministers had done no-
thing to forfeit that favourable opinion which the
House had always entertained of them for years—
(A laugh).—Gentlemen might laugh, but be did not
hesitate to assert that it was idle in any Administra-
tion to expect to carry on the government of this
country unless they could appeal with confidence to
the favourable opinion of Parliament—(hear, hear).—
He appealed, then, to the House, and he appealed to
the People—he appealed to the People of England,
. because he knew they were just and generous—
(Hear, hear)—he knew that, when they were labour-
ing under distress, they had a natural inclination to
look up to Parliament, as a source of relief and com-
fort; but he knew also that they used to lay all the
causes of their distress at the doors of the same body.
GOD forbid that he should blame this feeling—he re-
spected it ; and although, at times, it might assume
an irregular character, yet he knew it proceeded from
good motives, and that, as the flint bears fire, which,
much enforced, chews a hasty spark, and straight is
cold again, so, when the ebullition produced by
present distress had subsided, they would again re-
ceive at the hands of the House such relief- as the
wisdom of Parliament would suggest. He knew that
whatever might be the state of the public mind at
this time, it was entirely devoid of systematic oppo-
sition to the wishes of Parliament. Parliament was
disposed to do all in its power to alleviate their wants,
and he himself should be allowed to say, that he gave
place to none in wishes for their welfare. In return
for these dispositions, he calculated with confidence,
. upon the people's doing his Majesty's Ministers and
this House that justice for which they had been pro-
verbially remarkable—(Hear, hear).—The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman concluded by moving the two
following Resolutions :
1. That It appears to this House, that there is a net excess
of revenue, above the expenditure of the United Kingdom,
which may be estimated, for the year ending the sth January,
1822, at 5f5,2C0,000, exceeding by X2tio,ooo the amount of that
clear surplus, which, by a Resolution of this House, passed on
the Bth of June, 1819, was deemed expedient to provide for the
' progressive reduction of the National Debt, and the security
of public credit.
" 2. That the House views with satisfaction that by the ope-
ration of this surplus, together with the 'eduction of interest
upon the Eve per Cents. such a diminution of taxation may be
obtained as will give that relief which was held out Ls a part of
the beneficial results proceeding from the surplus so created."
The first Resolution having been put from the
Chair, in the shape of an Amendment,
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that he was so far
from agreeing with the Right Hon. Gentleman who
had just sat down, in the opinion he had expressed,
that a great reduction of taxation would not be wise,
that he thought such a measure was the only one
that could confer essential benefit on the country at
this moment, and was the only one at all likely to
appease the sufferings of the People. The Right
Hon. Gentleman, he thought, might have spared
that part of his speech which related to the Sinking
Fund. Let the Horne only recollect how much they
had heard of the wonder-working effects of the Sink-
ing Fund of Mr. Pitt. It was but lately that the
shade of that statesman had been invoked in support
of it, and now it appeared they had, for the first
time, any Sinking Fund whatever. That Fund, it
' appeared, depended entirely upon a surplus in the
Revenue, and that surplus depended on an improve-
ment in the Revenue, and, what was still more ha-
zardous, on the economy of his Majesty's Ministers.
All the golden prospects of Mr. Pitt, as to the ope-
ration of this Fund, it now appeared were a delusion,
and instead of being of any use, it had, upon calcu-
lation, been an additional expense to the nation to
the amount of thirty millions—(Hear, hear).—The
Sinking Fund, if allowed to go on akcompound inte-
r , rest, he believed might do something to*ards the