Star.
London, England, 1825-02-11 00:00:00

STATE OP IRELAND.

The Order of the Day having been read,
The Earl of LIVERPOOL rose, pursuant to his
notice, to move the revival of the Committee of last
year, to inquire into the State of Ireland. The subject
being already familiar to their Lordships, he should not
trouble them with many words. He should only state
the general object of his motion, and the course of
proceedings which he should propose to adopt. Their
Lordships were aware that a Committee had been ap-
pointed last year to examine the nature and extent of
the disturbances which prevailed in certain parts of
Deland which had been subject to the operation of the
Insurrection Act. As the object was to prOve the expe-
diency of c,;.ntinuing that Act, the inquiry had been
limited to the counties where it was in force, or was
likely to be put in force. But though limited in point
of locality, it had gone far into general subjects not
immediately connected with its original object, and the
Noble Earl himself, who had previously proposed a
more extended investigation, had expressed his appro-
bation of the disposition which his Majesty's Ministers
had shewn to give every possible la,itude to the inquiry,
and also of the superior convenience of a limited, over
a general investigation. With respect. to the question
which the Noble Marquis opposite (Lansdown) had
put to him a few days since, he had net hesitated to an-
swer that he had no objection to extend the present
inquiry to all parts of Ireland. Some words of quali-
fication should, however, be put in, more to direct the
Committee to what should be the subjects for inquiry,
than with a view to confine it. The motion with which,
he should conclude should therefore stand thus :
" That a Select Committee be appointed to inquire into
the state of Ireland, more particularly with respect to
those circumstances which may have led to disturbances
in that part of the United KingdoM." This, he re-
peated, was done for the purpose of directing, not for
that of limiting inquiry. It might be asked whether
it should embrace the Catholic question ? To this he
should answer, that lie would consider it improper to
refer that question to any Select Committee. It was
one of too much importance and magnitude not to be
decided by the House itself, and not to receive the free'
vote and opinion of every Peer. He therefore did not
intend to refer the Catholic question to the Committee
for an opinion or judgment, and indeed if it were to
give one it would prove useless, for it would not induce
any Noble Lord to give up the right of judging for
himself. Ile did not mean, however, to prevent exa-
minations being taken in the Committee as to opinions
and facts bearing upon that question. If any facts ap-
peared to any Noble Lord calculated to throw light
upon it, he should be at full liberty to make them ob-
jects of examination. As to the course which he pro-
posed to follow, he thought that the-most correct one
would be to name the same Members of the Commit:.
tee as last year, with the exception of those who were
absent,-or who might be desiroy,s that their names should be with-
drawn. As his Noble Friend, the Earl of Aberdeen, was on the
Continent, and not likely to be able to attend any part of the in-
glary, he should propose that Lord Fitzgibbon be appointed in his
stead; and in lieu of EarlFitzwilluni whose wish it was to with-
draw, he should propose the Duke of Devonshire. The Noble
Earl concluded by moving the appointment of the Committee.
Earl DARNLEY reminded the House of the motion
which he had made twelve months ago, for a general
inquiry into the state of Ireland, in which, however, he
had only had the support of sixteen of their Lordships.
It was not his intenti in to oppose the present motion,
as he approved of its object, neither would he claim it
as " his thunder." He would leave that thunder in the
hands of Jupiter himself, and only hope that he would
make a good use of it. Notwithstanding the assurances
of the Noble Earl, that he -would not narrow inquiry,
if the Committee were net to possess themselves of facts
bearing on the Catholic Question b'y the examination of
persons best able to give information, they would badly
perform the task imposed upon them. He had last
year made that question the most prominent part of
his motion, whereas the Noble Earl had left it out
entirely. Iri all times it had for Med the principal
point for consideration in the affairs of Ireland, and
now it had become an indispensable one. The ex-
amination of the last year, as far as it had gene,
had certainly throwrrnew-lieat upon the propriety of
granting the Catholic claims ; and the mote they exa-
mined the Aubject, the more would their Lordships be
convinced that Ireland would never be tranqsil until
those claims were satisfied. To refuse much longer
must become impossible ; and it would be wiser to take
the earliest opportunity of calmly and voluntarily meet-
ing the subject, that's to wait till it grew a matter of
necessity. As to the opinion which he had expressed of the supe-
rior convenience of the course adopted by the Noble Earl over that
which he (Earl Darnley) had recommended, it proceeded from this :
—that had his motion for a general inquiry been supported by the
House, the Noble Earl might probably have found means, from the
power which ha possessed, to narrow its sphere, whilst that Nobly
Earl, after moving for a narrow inquiry, had liberally extended it
beyond its original limits.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN did not rise to op-
pose the motion. On the contrary, opposition would come
better from anybody rather than from him, as the sub-
ject of inquiry was not connected with any rneasuyehe.
fore the House. Ile also felt that the investigation
would takeplace under better auspices, in-the present
circumstances of the country, and he trusted that; it
would not be narrowed too much by anylimitationi
whiCh that Noble Earl might put upon it. His r•bject
in rising was to ask whether the Report of the Com-
missioners of InqUily into the state of Educition in
Ireland was nearly ready to be laid before the Honse.
;he que.tion had acquired still greatei importance *since thiy had
commenced their inquiry? -It had keit 'Warted -bethe • 4ithef

House to those Commissioners last Session ; and he understood
they had been engaged all the summer in the investigation. He was
anxious to have their Report, as it Would spare the Committee
much time. If the Noble Earl were not prepared to answer the
question this evening, he would perhaps be able to give a reply the
next day of meeting.
. The Earl of LIVERPOOL was willing to "give the 1
Noble Marquis all the satisfaction in his power. The
Commissioners had catried on the inquiry with the
greatest industry and perseverance during the whole
summer, but were not at this moment, quite prepared
to make their Report. By the Easter holidays, how-
ever. they were of opinion that they could produce it. He should
be able to give the Noble Marquis more certain information, per-
haps, in the course of a few hours. He admitted the importance
that the Report should be made ; but on a subject of such magni-
tude and interest, he had not thought proper to hurry the Com-
missioners. Great and valuable progress had been made in the
inquiry—and he repeated, the Commissioners expected to be able
to report about F-.stir. •
Lord HOLLAND found it impossible to join in the
unanimous vote of the House, without expressing his
surprise at the time at which the Noble Earl opposite
had become a convert to the necessity of a general in-
quiry into the state of Ireland. He also complained
that the Noble Earl had only said what should not be.
and stotwhat should he the grounds of inquiry: All
general investigations had hitherto been uniformly re-
jected. %Viten, last Session, som .e •districts of Ireland
were disturbed, the inciniry %% as confined to them; but
now that the country were told there were no disturbed
districts, the narrow ground for instituting a general
inquiry was running from under the Noble Earl. The
Catholic Question, which formed the pi incipal feature
in the state of Iceland, might be thought a good sub-
ject for investigation. Oh, no, said the Noble Earl, in-
quiry on that you shall have none ; the Committee
shall have nothing to d. With that. Then what was it
to examine? Perhaps the extraordinary laws which
excluded so large a body of men from the privileges of
the Constitution? No; you must not look at them, said
again the Noble Earl. Infatuated as Mark Antony with
his love, he would say, like him, allow your tongues
free license to discuss my faults, but say not a word
abort Cleopatra. TheCatholicQuestion was hisCleopati a.
He was ready to acquiesce in the Motion, because all
inquiry of any kind whatever was useful to Ireland, and
because no inquiry could take place without informa-
tion being elicited respecting the Catholic Question,
which must tend to its final settlement. In point of po-
licy and Patliamentary regularity, however, the Noble
Earl had Chosen the very worst time he possibly could
for recommending the present inquiry. A great man
of antiquity had said, that the whole art of war con-
sisted in ba.ing in time. So ought it to be in policy.—
Had this been attended to, how much irritation and dif-
ficulty might not have been avoided. It had been said
of a predecessor of the Noble Lord, who was always in
a state of useless bustle, that he had lost half an
hour in the morning, and was losing the whole day in looking after
it. So, in the morning of their Administration, had his Majesty's
igbiretnawnt not neglected the opportunities which offered them-
server, they would not now be losing time in trying ta recover
*AM. Vat to conciliate and to bring the present difficulties to
.4

eennieratitur, much more was now required than merely being in
time. Had it been attempted after the return of peace, it would
then have been easy for this country to quiet Ireland.
The Eatl of HARROW BY could not allow the ob-
servations of the Noble Baron to pass without remark-
ing that he had misunderstood, for he could not sup-
pose that he would misrepresent, what had fallen from
his Noble Friend. General inquiries had been refused
oti former occasions, on the ground that they were less
likely to be attended with useful results than more li-
mited ones. Last year, when it was proposed to re-
new the Insurrection Act, an inquiry was also pro-
posed to strew the necessity that existed for it. So far
from any inclination being displayed by. any Member
of his Majesty's Government to check investigation, the
greatest disposition was evinced to remove as far as
possible, evert the limitations put upon it by that House,
and not to keep it within its geographical bounds, or at
leasto interpret them in the most comprehensive man-
ncrws There was scarcely any topic connected with Ire-
land which would not be found in the minutes of the
Committee. Was there anything inconsistent, there-
fore, whilst proposing a renewal of the inquiry, to ab-
stain from affixing limits to its operation? In fact, the
Commissioners had stated in their Report last year,
that there were many points in which they had not per-
fected their inquiries, and they recommended to the
House to renew the Committee. It was therefore their
recommendation, strengthened by the higher authority
of the Speech from the Throne, which formed the
ground for the present revival. As to keeping the Ca-
tholic Question out of sight, the Noble Baron ought to
have recollected that his Noble Friend (the Eirl of Li-
verpool) had distinctly stated, that he should have no
objection to inquire into all facts which bore upon that
question, and-into the opinions of individuals upon that
subject, for in such a case opinions were facts. The
Noble Baron was not a warmer or more persevering
friend than himself (the Earl 4:f Harrowby) to making
concessions to the Catholics, but he felt that if the
Committee were to report on that subject, they would exceed their
powers. No I louse of Parliament, acting properly, would ever re-
fer such a question for decision to any select body. It was one on
which all opinions ought to be freely given, and it would not he fit
that such a question should come to the House biassed one way or
the ether by the opinion of a Committee. Even were he certain that
the Report should be made in the sense which he approved,he should
kill object to such a report bring made.
Lord KING asked their Lordships what they would
say.of an empiric who should mix his medicines one
day and appoint' a consultation upon it for the next
day? Wodld they not think it most ridiculous? This
was, however, what they were now doing. The medi-
cine was in the mortar at this very moment, it was
pounding tuns. they were voting an inquiry ! Why object to having
a consultation first and the medicine after? Because they were
afraid that another valve would be recommended, and that instead
of their steel medicines, they should have to give soothing opiuns or
strengthesing bark. Bark they would admit was a very good spe-
cific, but far too dear and too important for them to use.
Thei motion was tbeu agreed tu, and the, Commitkee appointed.—
Adjetimed.

110 USE OF COMMON&
A new Writ was moved for a Nleniber for the Borough of New.
post, Isle of Wight, in the room of Sit Leonard Holmes, deceased.
Mr. OREN:FM.I. moved for leave to bring in a Bill fur the
rortuatiest sf St. Cailiarine's Docks.
Mrt DICKINSON presented a Petitioa from the Inhabitants
of the Boebagh of against the Assessed Taxes.—Latd on
the table%)
mr. $(4 presented a Petition, signed by 4,700 of the
Inhabitants of the County of Cavan, against the Catholic Claims.—
od tlltsahie. . •

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Mr. HART DAVIS. presented a Petition from certain Manu-
facturers of Tobacco and Sriuff in Bristol, praying a reduction of
the duties on tobacco.—Laid on the table.
Mr. ASH wry presented a Petition from a Parish in Oxford-
shire, praying a repeal of the Assessed Tates.—Laid on the table.
Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE presented a Petition from the
Inhabitants of Bathwick,in Sumersetabire, praying the repeal of the
Assessed Taxes.—Laid on the Table, and ordered to he printed.
Sir TkIOSIAS ACLAND presented a Prating from the In-
habitants of South Mutton, and alio 3 Petition from those of Holes-
worthy, against the Duty on Coals.
Colonel DAVIF.S gave notice, that on the sth of March he
should move for the reduction of certain duties.
Mr. W A RRE presented a Petition from the inhabitants of
Taunton, prayinig a Repeal of the Tares on Houses and Windows.
-.-Laid on the 'I able.
Mr. HUME begged to ask the Right Honourable Secretarj op-
posite (Mr. Canning), whether his Maje►ty's Government had any
objection to furnish certain Papers respectinesehoationperations
againkt the Ashantees ?
Mr. Secretary CANNING rose to inform the lion. Member,
that the subject to which he alluded did not come immediately
within his (Alt% Canning's) department—nor was he aware of any
papers relating to it which could be laid before the I loose.
Mr .J. WILLIAMS requested to know from the Right Hon.
Secretary (Mr. Peel) whether the Commission which had been ap-
pointed to inquire into the Proceedings and l'ractice of the Court
of Chancery, intended to submit a report to Parliament during the
present Session ?
Mr. Secretary PEEL wished the 'honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman had applied to other persons in the House more competent
than him (Mr. Peel) to supply the information demanded. He
believed, however, he might say, that the Commission had been
most assiduous in investigating the matters referred to it, and that,
most probably, it would make an ear►y report of the result.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL was happy to be able to state,
that the Commission alluded to would, in a very short time, lay
before the House a partial report—( Much laughter).

CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.

Sir GEORGE HILL rose to present a Petition from
the City and County of Londonderry playing this Asses.
ciation might be suppressed. The petition was voted at a meet-
ing held on the 10th January, and was signed by 27 Clergymen, 39
Magistrates, and 1700 Freeholders of the highest respectability.
Mr. AI3ERCROMBY wished the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would favour the House with some account of the speeches
which preceded the adoption of the petition.
Mr. DAWSON supported the petition. It had been
signed in two days by above 1700 of the inha'oitantsof
Idae City and County of Londonderry. The Catholic. were the
persons to throw down the gauntlet on the present occasion, and
should abide the consequeres. Until the Catholic Relit had begun
to be collected, the Protestants of Londonderry remained passive;
and Ise (Mr. Dawson) took that opportunity of declaring that 9-10ths
of the Protestants of Ire were against any farther concession to—
the Catholics.
Sir H. PARNE could not help observing, that
this was the only Petiti from Ireland—(llear, hear)—against the
Catholic Aqsociation ; and for his part, he could assure the I louse
ilia the majority of the Protestants in Ireland were favourable to
Catholic Emancipation.
Mr. MAXWELL had tti remind the Right Honour.
able Baronet, that he had that evening presented a Petition, signed
by upwards of 400 persons, against Catholic Emancipation.
Mr. ABERCROAIRY merely beggei to mention
that a requisition, most numerously and ieirectably
signed, had been presented to the High Sheriff of Waterford. to
call a Meeting of the County to Petition in favour uf the Catholics,
and that the High Slieriff had refused.
Mr. I). IIItOWNE sincerely believed, that the only
thing which could give peace to lielaild, would be the
abandoning all civil distinctions on the score of tell.
gion—(Hear, hear). As some insinuations had been
thrown out against the Country Gentlemen of Ireland
for not resisting the advances of the Catholic Associa-
tion, he, for himself, should say, that he had long recommended
patience to the Irish Catholics, and entreated them to wait till
England should be roused to a sense of their situation, and the jus-
tice of their claims. They had so waited—anti now, when he ad.
dressed them, they expressed the disappointments they felt, and
their conviction that it was only by exerting themselves they could
hope td succeed.—The Petition was then laid on the table, and or-
dered to be printed ; as also a Petition of a similar nature from the
Corporation of Londonderry, likewise presented by. the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet.

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.
striated to impede the prosperilt of the empire, and to
produce and foster public discontent. The Bill whichd
he should now introdult, pith the view of resisting the
evil in question, went to amend acts—one passed by
the Irish Parliament-in 1795, allrcalled the Convention
Act, the other passed the year before last, for putting
down secret societies in Ireland. Although these re-
lated to different objects, they were both applicable to
the present state of the sister country. It was well
known that the Act passed in 1793, was intended to
prohibit all assemblies, either representing or affecting
to represent the public generally, or any class of the
people.—But it was not because danger was appre-
hended from Representative Bodies only that the above
Act was passed, but because all bodies then existing of
an alarming character were of that nature. Up to 1793,
all assemblies which had met in Ireland were Repre-
sentative, and the particular one which was quelled by
the Convention Act was so likewise. Representation,
therefore, was only a distinguishing feature of thegene-
ral evil which it was proposed to redress, and was not
the test by which the Government of that period pro-
ceeded. If the House attended to the Resolutions
adopted in the Irish Legislature previous to the passing
of the law, it would find drat Representation was only
one characteristic of the Bodies it wished to suppress.
- In the Irish House of Lords particularly, it was stated
that the object was to put down self-created As-
semblies taking upon themselves to interfere with
the prerogatives of Parliament, and levy sums of
money on the King's subjects. It was not, therefore,
representation which gave the character of danger to
the Assemblies then contemplated, and the debates of
that era shew that the Act was directed against self-
created Societies exciting alarm, and tending to disturb
the peace of the country. Parliament had now to deal
with an Association formed expressly to evade the law—
an Association aware that the provisions of the existing
law extended only to representative bodies, and which
therefore claimed to itself the privilege of not being a
representative assembly, but one formed and maintained
on independent grounds. It had, however, been ad-
mitted a few evenings back, by the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham), that the Catholic
Association " virtually represented" the Catholics of
Ireland, and there was no testimony on a matter of this
sort which he (Mr. Goulburn) would prefer to the Non.
and Learned Gentleman's. He would ask, then, was
there not as good ground to suppress a body 44 virtually"
representing, as a body actually representing the Ca-
tholics, ?—and whether a body was to be tolerated which'
did that virtually which the law prevented it from doing
actually ? lithe Catholic Association technically evaded
the object of Parliament, the latter was bound to keep
pace with the ingenuity thus employed, and to meet the
artifice which had been resorted to. Surely it would
not be contended that any society should be allowed to
effect that virtually which the law prohibited it from
effecting actually ? If he (Mr. Goulburn) were to vir-
tually calumniate any Gentleman opposite. he should
think himself more culpable than if he had openly done
so, for lie should have to add the shame of the subter-
fuge to the guilt of the act. Burputting representation
aside, he was prepared to ground. his motion on the
qiiiid
nature and constitution of th ies with which the
House had now to deal. He it d, however, he might
indulge the hope, that the nec ty for adopting the
present measure would be short-lived, and its operation
equally temporary. He had already intimated that he
should first thaw attention to the Catholic Association.
In entering upon that subject, he was afiaid he should
appear fatiguing ; for it had been the beast of the body
alluded to, that all its acts were priblic— ( Hear, hear).
It had been its object to disseminate its proceedings
in every pothible channel of publicity. He, there-
fore, felt the difficulty of stating. anything to the
House which had not been known to it before—( Hear,
hear). The Catholic Association was formed in the
May of 1823. To his present purpose, the objects with
which it professed to set out were matters of compara•
tive indifference. Whether it assembled as was de-
clared, solely to aid in procuring Catholic Emancipa-
tion, and the redress of what were termed other griev-
ances affecting that body—or whether, as some of its
Members asserted, the object was to obtain a Reform
of Parliament, a Repeal of the Union, and the ultimate
separation of the country fi om England, he should not
now dwell on. Were the objects perfectly inoffensive,
that would not shield from the consequences of the in-
jurious means that might be employed in effecting
them. Wete they not, it was not worth quarrelling
with the Catholics, because they had exactly done what
they assembled to do. In abstaining, too, from any
particular observations on the speeches of individuals
in the debates of that Assembly, he was willing to
allow that persons in popular meetings were apt to be
led away, by a: dour of momentary incitement, to tt'ans-
gress the bounds of discretion. He should likewise ab-
stain from those debates, because it was on the whole
tone and tenour of the proceedings of the Association—
(Hear, hear)—that he should te,t his motion. As he
had already stated, he was willing to admit, that in
public assemblies much latitude of language must be
tolerated; he did not think, however, that the speakers
of the Catholic Association could claim any indulgence
en that score. In it there was none of that opposition
which was at once the cause and the excuse for intem-
perance. The great source of mischief then was the
absence of all opposition—(Hear). The Members were
all perfectly agreed on every topic; and if any indi-
vidual dated to offer an opinion at variance with the
general feeling of the meeting, his reception was such
as to deter every other man from following the ex-
ample. Next, in considering the constitution of that
body, not the least alarming feature was its indefinite-
ness. Other bodies not elected, might still be under
some controul. But when either being a member or
not being a member, depended upon a person% own
will ; and when the number of members was unlimited,
all checks operating upon other societies *ere withdrawn.
He was also obliged to acknowledge that the Associa-
lprised great proportion of the Catholic
of persons that on the present occa-
isposed to speak of in sorrow than
1 painful to find those whose duty
ulcate the meek spirit of Chris-
and to impart to them religious
not only taking a past in the po.
.ssociation, but using their powers
influence. The next class comprised
known for yeats to every use
ssh affairs ; they were persons of
or angry dispositions and tur-
bo had at all times been the asl-
imaginary sufferers, their busi-
inflame the minds of the people—to
reliance on the laws—and to
they were enduring every descrip

tion of oppression. The union of these individuals with while he adverted to the application of the money thus
the other members of the Association was of itself well collected. To some parts of the appficatiohhe did not
calculateito excite alarm. But to those were to be ad- offer any objection. • The Catholic Association Might
ded all the survivors of the Catholic Committee of give briefs to certain Banisters to defend.the Citholics,
1793, to put down which the Convention Act had been or they might appoint an agent in London to superio-
passed, and also many persons not unknown to that tend their English affairs. These proceedings he should
House—persons long familiar with plots and treasons— not impugn, whatever he might think of their discre-
with the plots and treasons of olden times—the asso- tion. Neither should he make the interference of the
ciates of Tone, of Russell, and of Emmet—men who Association with the Liberty of the Press any ground
had openly arrayed themselves in mad defiance to the of charge against a body who set up a claim to liberality
Laws and Government of the Country, and who were of sentiment on the part of others as well as itself. He
identified with the desperate objects and acts of would say nothing of the very considerable part of the
those days., This was a part of the subject, how- Press which:the Association had retained as its advo.
ever, on which he had no inclination to enlarge. He cater, nor of the other part of the Press which it had
must next observe, that there was certainly a consider- determined to persecute—nor of its union with Mr.
able portion of the Catholic Nobility and Gentry also Cobbett, and the sums expended in disseminating his
connected with the Association—(Hear, hear, hear). He writings throughout the country. It was not, however,
was disposed to speak fairly, and he broadly stated that because he was insensible to the tendency of those acts,
fact. It was impossible at the same time not to per- but because there were other modes in which the" rent"
ceive that many of the Catholic Aristocracy and Gentry was applied more deierving of reprehension. He was
bad been iasoluntarily placed in that situation. He unwilling to detain the House, but he could not help a
would indeed assert that the great proportion of those reference to the interference of that body with the ordi.
classes viewed the conduct of the Catholic Association nary administration of justice. He knew that any ob-
with as much dread and horror as any ether part of the nervation of this sort he might make would give rise to
community. But it was well known these men might remarks upon an Association which had existed in Eng.
be found to swell the numberp of any Society, and from land. In the first place, however, an Association might
their characters to confer importance on it, without be legal in this country which would neither be legal
being able to direct its march. It was known that nor expedient in Ireland—for then it might be attended
neither virtue, rank, nor talent, held the ascendancy in with most prejudicial ccnsequences. But the Catholic As-
such assemblies, but that whoever pandered to the pas- sociation had not only interfered with the ordinary admi-
sions of the multitude, was raised to the dignity of a nistration of justice, but had intermingled itself with all
leader. Yet the junction of so much rank and merit the preliminary proceedings before the inferior tribunals.
gave a weight to the Association which made it the In investigations belae a single Magistrate, in trials at
more formidable and the more deserving of suppression. the Petty Sessions—(Hear)—and in Coroner's Inquests,
Could the House either forget that the Catholics had the Agents of the Association were employed. Nor upon
adopted the very forms of Parliament, while it op. those occasions was the interference of the agent con-
posed and spurned its authority? At the beginning fined to the cases under consideration, but everything
of its Session general Committees were appointed— calculated to awaken or exasperate political animosity
a Committee of Grievances—a Committee of Jus- was urged—the Magistrates were personally appealed
tice—a Committee of Education—(Hear, !sear)—and to—and the alleged sufferings of the Catholics were not
all on the ground that Parliament had refused to only pleaded in extenuation of ci into, but in violation of
attend to these subjects, and therefore it was incumbent justice. Every Court of Petty Sessions even was at-
on the Association to perform the duty. Besides gene- tended, when the occasion was thought fit, by Counsel
ral, there were likewise particular Committees, one of delegated by the Catholic Association—delegated for
which was for examining_facts before they were sub- the purpose of perplexing, by the subtlety and intrica.
mitred to the public. The rules and orders of the ties of his argument, the course of the legal proceedings.
Association were likewise copied almost verbatim from He spoke from what had really happened, and not from
the rules and orders of Parliament ; and, " Sir" (con- any ideal picture of his own. Such had been the effect
tinued Mr. Goulburn, and pointedly addressing the of this line of conduct in some parts of the country,
Speaker), "if that body has not appointed one of its that many Magistrates had been reduced to the necessity
members to office similar to that which you fill in this of retiring from the Courts where they were subjected
House, it is because it has not been able to find an in- to this sort of persecution. He would, however, draw
dividual willing to accept it under the penalty of being their attention to the effect of this course in some of the
permanently silent." Although the Association obvi- higher Courts. It happened that about the end of July
ously exercised great power over the Catholic popular last, a statement reached the Catholic Association relit•
don, it took a peculiar method of establishing its author Live to a murder committed in the parish of Ballybey.
rity through the country. It was in the habit of calling The writer stated that the murder was committed by
what were termed aggregate meetings, and which an Orangeman upon a Roman Catholic, undes circum-
were held to express the sense of the Catholics of Ire- stances of great aggravation, and was coupled with an
land. These meetings were convened at regular in. expression (.1 indignation that the Association had not
tervals ; and resolutions were passed approving and interfered without waiting for the stimulus oldie writer's
sanctioning everything which the Association had account. In the first place, he wished the House to
done. If, therefore, the Association was not avowedly remark upon this case, that the letter to which lie al-
the representative of the Catholics, it took care to act luded, containing all these details, was publicly circu-
tor them first, and to obtain their approval afterwards. lated over the country by the Catholic Association,
But what were those meetings? 'They consisted prin- before the individual charged was put on his trial (Hear).
cipally of the members of the Association, and the per- In the !econd place, he should call their attention to the
sons who spoke loudest and longest at them, and who course adopted by the Association in pursuance of the
passed the juggle off on the people were the orators of matter. Arrogating to themselves the functions of
the Association, who merely expressed and had pro- Parliament, a meeting was convened at which the let-
claimed self-gtatulatory compliments upon their own ter was read, and a Resolution regularly passed and
eloquence, and their own conduct. It was next his entered upon their journals, " That upon the motion of
(Mr. Goulburn's) duty to call the attention of the Hdus.e S. D. Mullen, the Committee appointed to investigate
to some of the leading acts of that Society. There was the circumstances of the recent murder in the parish of
first, under the guise of voluntary contributions, a levy Ballybey, be summoned to meet upon Monday next,
on the public called " Catholic Rent," which, besides and the communications upon the subject being laid
implying a power and right only lodged in the before them, they be authorised to adopt whatever pro-
Legislature, was an onerous and grievous tax on ceedings may appear requisite."— (Cheersfrore the Op-
the people of Ireland. No one could deny but the position.) —He (Mr. Goulburn) begged to observe that
rent was a levy of money from his Majesty's sub- he was stating facts, and he thought it would be more
jects for objects not previously defined, but such as to the satisfaction of the Honourable Gentlemen oppo-
it might subsequently be advisable to pursue. The site to re erne their cheers till they should hear the end
system, however, by which that tax was collected of the case. This Committee he had to inform the
was more obnoxious than the tax itself. There were House, made a report. in which they declared the case
officers and inferior officers all depending on one ono- in question was one which called for the interference of
Cher, and exhibiting an organization more dangerous the Association, and recommended that Mr. Kiernan
than any purpose to which the fund could be applied. should be directed to conduct the prosecution. This
When a sum was to be raised, an order to that effect accordingly took place. Mr. Kiernan did conduct the
emanated from the Society at large, specific in every prosecution; but it was material to consider what was
respect but in the amount to be raised. The mandate the consequence of all this to the individual placed upon
was issued to the Priest of each pal ish, who, by the same his trial. In consequence of this report, arid the pub-
authority, was appointed treasurer of the rent. Instruc- licity of the statement upon which it was founded, lie
dons were also furnished him at the same time, and went to trial with the opinion of the *hole of the Catho.
books, in which the contributions received, and other lic population of the country against him.—He appeared
circumstances, were to be carefully noted. On receipt upon the day of his trial, with the supposed fact:
of that mandate, the Priest announced it from the chapel elicited by the investigation of the Catholic Association
—from the altar—informing the congregation of the arrayed against him, the result of which was, that a
object to be effected, and calling upon individuals to Catholic had been slain by him because he was a Ca-
takethe ofßceof collectors. Nor had instances been wanted tholic. He would, however, trouble the House to pur-
when persons, who refused to act as collectors on that sue the proceedings in this case to their termination.
mandate, had been publicly censured by the Priests, and At the trial a variety of witnesses were produced, who
held up in the chapel among their friends and neigh. severally swore to the most horrible acts of cruelty on
hours as unworthy of all confidence or regard—(Hear, the part of the prisoner. One swore to his having
Lear). It was a further part of the duty of the Priest to jumped upon the throat of the deceased ; another
insert or cause to be inserted, in the books transmitted that he bad inhumanly kicked him in the ribs
to him, the name of each contributor, and the amount when he lay. upon the ground ; others spoke to the
of his contribution, that both might be recorded in the tact of his having broken the deceased's arm, and
archives of the Association. There were other books in went on with a series of the most shocking recitals.
which the names of those who did nqt contribute were But how were the facts of the case, as proved in the
registered, and a report made to the Association ac- progress of the trial ? The surgeons who examined the
cordingly, that such persons might be handed down to body were produced—men beyond imputation as to
posterity, with a suitable share of obloquy and odium character, and also beyond the influence of the Catholic
—(Hear, hear, hear). But the Association went still Association. They proved, to the complete satisfaction
further. Some Gentlemen who had thought it a griev- of tke Court and the Jury, that on the body there was
lance on their tenantry to be compelled thus to tax them- no one mark of violence—(Hear, hear). The deceased,
selves—Who saw with pain and regret a miserable pea- it appeared, had received his death by accidentally fall-
untry suffering want and penury, and unable to give ing upon a small post, and breaking thereby one of the
their children the meanest education, mulcted of a part vertebra of his neck. Added to this,,in the defence,
of their hard earnings—advised the people not to pay circumstances came out highly honourable to the indi-
tbe " Catholic Rent." The consequence was, that the vidual, as to his conduct upon the occasioa which had
Catholic Association was filled with letters from the brought the deceased to his death—(Hear). He could
Priests in those districts, denouncing and holding up to not leave this case without reciting to the House the
scorn and reprobation—he (Mr. Goulburn) would not words of the Judge, upon discharging_ the prisoner.
say to vengeance—the Gentlemen who had so inter- They were to the following effect :—"1 do not think
fered—(Hear). Where no definite object was assigned it right to discharge you from the place where you now
for the application of the money so raised, so torn from stand, without expressing to you my entire satisfaction
the people—(Hear, hear, from the Opposition Benches) at your conduct upon the evening to which your trial
—Gentlemen who doubted the cruelty and force of the has had reference. It is evident from what has trans-
exaction, were not, perhaps, aware of the power which pired in the course of your trial, that you exerted your-
the Catholic Priests exercised over their flocks. As had self to the utmost to preserve the peace, and your eon-
lately been mentioned in that House, they assumed the duct entitles you to the highest praise."—(Arear, hear).
authority of absolving from sin, and of abstaining from Yet this was the individual who had been denounced
affording absolution. Could it be imagined, then, that in for a whole fortnight before his trial as having been
addressing a low and ignorant peasantry, and in applying, guilty of the most abhorrent crime ander the most
if not the authority, at lust the influence of the priestly aggravated circumstances; and •
office, in extorting contributions from the poor —could it mated thefeelings of the whole,
be said that the payment did not proceed from compel- —But this was not the only .
sion: was it nottorn from those unable to spare it?—(Heer). whith had come to his knowled)
He (Mr. Goulburn) would now trespass es the House had bees announced to the

of the parish off' /4ewinarkot, that a sblctk bf the
25th regiment had been detected in an attempt to se-
duce the people from their allegiance, by acting td
administer illegal oaths to them. The name of the
soldier was Stephen Hanley. and the Nest, in bit
letter, stated that " the ruffian Was apprehended in
his attempt to persuade four men to take the illegal
oaths. Upon being asked what the nature of the oath;
were? he said, it was to be true to each r they, and that
they were to kill all the soldiers, all the Orangethed, and
all the Protestants. He said that the than had selected
him as the most proper man to enlighten the people.—
The letter went on to say, that the " ruffian had
been arrested ; that the witnesses had attempted td
deny the facts, but that a more clear case of guilt;
and one better proved, had never been known; that lE
lbehoved the Association to come forward; or ne:
thing would be done, and in the opinion of thi
writer, he had better be transported immediately, al
the best means to stop the career of similar incendiaries:
The case came on before a numerous Beath of Magic:
trates, forty-three in number ; but such was the contra-.
dictery nature of the evidence adduced on the part of
the prosecuticin, that the Bench was unanimous in the
opinion that it need not go to the Jury. At the head
of this Bench was Mr. Blackburn, whose respectability
and legal competency no one in that House would deny
—(Hear). This soldier was not only subjected to im.;
prisonment, and to every vile appellation that could be
given him, but he was actually denounced at the altar
by the Priest of the Parish where -he was taken up.—
The Priest went so far as to tell his auditors to be cau-
tious against the soldiers, whose object was to lead thud
astray, in order that they might afterwards shoot theth
like dogs—(Hear, hear). To this admonition he added
the humane promise, that he would seek out the milli.*
of the woman to whom the soldier was married, and
have her sent out of the country. The case he had just
related, had been followed by a similar one, in which
a policeman. was the victim.—The object there was to
render the whole body of police odious to the people;
and to excite the acrimony of party in the administra-
tion of justice. He could relate many similar cases, but
he would leave them, and come to the subject of the pro=
clamations of the Catholic Association. One had ap-
peared in the month of December last, in which they
boasted that they had restored tranquillity to the country.;
About that time it appeared they began to entertain a
great aversion to Whiteboy offences; and they be.
thought themselves that it was prudent, as they pos-
sessed some influence in the country, to obtain the Suf-
frage of the respectable portion of the country, who
had hitherto kept aloof from some feeling of alarm with
regard to them. la the early part of the address, they
called upon their adherents to abstain from all illegal
meetings and acts, and especially from Whiteboyism.
Having done this they urged their arguments in support
of it. One of these was the power of the law, which
if electively administered, would assuredly be toga
strong
.for them; and then, said the Proclamation, "how
many innocent persons have we seen suffer transporta:
'ion?' Here it appeared that they could not advise the
people to abstain from outrage without libelling
the law, by asserting that people were transported
under it who were guilty of no offence. On behalf
of the Irish Government, he begged to state, and the
Committee of last Session upon Irish affairs would con-
cur with him in the assertion, that there was nothing
to which the Lord Lieutenant paid more attention
than to this branch of his functions. Every case under-
went his particular attention, in order to insure that no
man should suffer the sentence of the law where there
was a shadow of evidence in his favour. This was the
outset of the P. oclamation ; but he would presently she*
what were the motives at the bottom of this conciliatory
address. These were placed at the conclusion, which
was intended as the strong point of the whole, to sum
up as it were the merit of the address, and shew the
principle upon which the Association professed to act;
and that which it was the object of the Address to in-
culcate. This passage called upon them, in the name
of common sense, and by the hatred they bore to'
Orangemen, their natural enemies, their respect for
their Priests, and reverence for the religion of the
living Gon, to observe the exhortatiens of the Address.,
This sentiment had been affirmed by the Association,'
when called upon by one of the members to impugn
and reject it. He was therefore entitled to assume that
they concurred in it as a body,the approach to unanimity
having been such that they would net even divide upon
the proposition to reject it. This Proclamation had been
sent to every Priest in the country, by him to be read
publicly in the church—(Hear, hear).—If there wanted
a proof of the influence of this Association, this, which
procured that the Priests should inculcate from the
Altar " hatred to their natural enemies," their fellow-
creatures; would suffice for that purpose. For their te-
ligion was based upon the same principles as mown.
and so great a departure from those principles argued a
proportionate influence. 'This paper had been read
upon the Sabbath to the congregations of the respective
churches, and left to work its effect on the ignorant
minds of the populace. Under these circumstances, was
it surprising that an anxiety upon the subject of this
body should be felt by the Government of Leland ?
Having forborne, until forbearance was almost a crimes
they new called upon Parliament to protect the country.
not only from political but from religious danger. Was
it possible to look on inactive any longer, whilst this
Association continued in its baleful course, perverting
justice, sowing the seeds of disunion, and proclaiming
open hatred to a great portion of the population? It
was to be observed that the consequences of former
associations were still fresh in the memory of thae
country. In 1791 a similar body arose, styling them,
selves United Irishmen. There were other Associationi
strongly resembling in their nature the Catholic Autos
ciation, which flourished at this period, the termination
of which they could not forget. He would not rear
to' the events of those times, of which, indeed, it was im-
possible to think without horror. He would merely re-
mind them that the United Irishmen began by profile'
lug, like the Catholic Association, that they were
,as-
sembled for the purpose of obtaining Emancipation.
It was distinctlylaid down in their first addresstbatEmoo-
cipation was what they had in view, in order to induce
the concurrence of the country. /The House well knew,
from the subsequent confessions of some of the par-
ties, that revolution and separation from England were
their real objects. They, too, like this Association, had
endeavoured to levy rent, and they defended criminals
by Counsel out of their own body. He roust,hoemert
in justice to them say, that they never attempted to
transport an innocent soldier, nor crush a merit
wonder

. all checks operating upon
1 1 He was also obliged to I
tion comprised a greal
hierarchy—a class of pe
Ilion he was more dispos
in anger—for it was pai
' ) directed them to intuit
tianity into their flocks, a
't , and moral instruction, nc
t litieal objects
its influent
the Asst
1 in extending influenc
in that body were well
1 who had attended to Irii
disappointed hopes, or
governable ambition, wl
i yentas either of real or
nese had been to inflanu
4 , - teach them to place no
.
prove to them that the,

nd against whom were ani. Officer. But, he again asked, was there any wattle' I
e countryof whatever party. that the Irish Government should call upon Parliament
•
iy case of a similar nature with a loud voice to rescue the country from the . ,ili" 4V
ledge. In January last it pending danger of this new Association ? He wishes ,
Association, by the Priest to present the question under a new face. &Wag
.
1

&Yeti Halt or hrlii befit Wire •to 'refittitlre' •
required from them, and not give redress for the wrongs
of the peaceable part of the community, or to confine
the evil within certain limits—could they expect that
those who were opposed to this body would not, upon
the principle of self-defence, enroll themselves into a
body possessing the same power, exercising the same
authority, and Interfering in like manner in the adminis-
tration of the laws? (Cheers fun* the Ministerial beaches.)
And could that House be insensible to the evils of a
double,hrliament so established—wherein a contest
would be carried on, not by individuals, but by two
conflicting rival bodies, engrossing the whole power
2nd consideration of the kingdom, and dividing it into
opposing parties ? Would they wish such a state of
;things to exist, wherein, when a cause was to be tried,
4hey would have the Counsel of the Catholic Associa-
4lon marshalling all the evidence on one side, and the
enOstile faction doing the same on the other ? Could
they desire to see rival Proclamations and recri-
Vninations issuing from the Protestants and, Catho-
lics? He called upon the Gentlemen from Ire-'
land to say, whether they would live in a country
subject to such a species of double domination?—
Whatever objections there might be to the details,
there could not be, he was convinced, any objection to
the principle of a measure which-should be directed to
the removal of such an evil. Before he came to state
the nature of the measure itself, he would make a few
obse, vations with reference to other obnoxious Societies
in Ireland. Two years ago, with the unanimous con-
currence of the House, he had brought in a Bill to sup-
press Secret Societies in Ireland. In some parts of that
country this Bill had achieved its object ; but in other
I,atts, the Societies which it had been desired to put
down had new-modelled themselves, so as to evade the
penalties of the Bill, and still continued to meet. Some
had substituted f.r the illegal oaths the oaths of alle-
giance and supremacy, which the men.bers were
obliged to take before a Magistrate, and to present a
certificate to that effect, to entitle them to admission.
He proposed to extend the provisions of that Act. The Bill would
render unlawful all societ les assuming to act for redress of grievances,
which were to have a permanent duration, or appointed Commutes
to nicet fur alsove a certain time, and that levied or collected money.
It would al.o tender illegal all societies affiliated which corresponded
with other societies, which excluded persons of any religious faith,
and which took oaths otherwise than as directed by law. There
would be exemptions of certain societies, which met for purposes
connected merely with trade, agriculture. charity, and others of a
harmless nature. The party charged with being a member would
be prosecuted by indictment alone ; so that in cases of vexatious pro-
s curinas, the Attorney. General might have an opportunity of inter-
ference. He hoped sincerely that these measures would restore
peace to Ireland. These hopes, he trusted, would be received with
pleasure by all parties. He believed they would, because he con-
\ c tired there were no other means by which that House could skew
its due regard for those rights to which it was indisputably entitled—
by which alone it could prove its disapprobation of measures—be
would say of an offetice..-that tended at once to overthrow the
prerogatives of the Crown, and to destroy the true privileges of the
people. (Hear.) He firmly hoped that the House would, by its
i manly, consistent, and honourable conduct, shew to the world that
i it would listen to no threat—that it would despise anything like
dictation. (Hear.) On former occasions, attempts had been made
against the power of Parliament; but he was one of those who
thought, that when properly exerted, the great body of the people
would still be brought to love and revere the legitimate power of
Parliament. (Hear.) The result of the measure he proposed
would be to restore tranquillity and peace to Ireland : such was
his firm impression. (Hear.) It would, he trusted, remove from
Ireland the scenes which he had described, and restbre that much
disturbed country tra.peace and happiness. (Hear.) In this hope,
be rose to move, "'That leave be given to bring in a Rill to amend
certain Acts far the suppression of unlawful societies in Ireland."
(Loud and continued cheers.)—The question having been pet,
Mr. J. SMITH thought that it was rather extraordi-
nary that a measure of this sort should be brought for-
ward on the mere authority of a Secretary for Ireland;
and he would desire to know why, upon this occasion,
they had departed from the usual course of 'hewing, by
some evidence, the necessity of the measure. When a
Right Hon. gentleman talked of the administration of
justice, he could not forget the Orange Societies, aid
• some protee.iings in the North of Ireland. He coold
not prove that the enormities to which he alluded were
atnibutable t,, that body of men. It fell to his lot to
present a petition to the House from a man oho had
had his house broken open by a number of armed men,
by whom he was most cruelly maltreated, and the par.,'
ties were taken up and tried for it, but the Jury acquitted
\
them ; but he would not assert that the Jury were
Orangemen, though, if he were inclined to enter upon
the subject, he could shew, that from some cause of
other, the laws were not well administered in the North
of Ireland. He could refer the House for proof of this
to the unquestionable authority of Lord Redesdale, late
Lord Chancellor of that country. In 1822 be stated,
that in Ireland there was one law for the rich and an-
other for the poor, and that both were equally ill-admi-
nistered. He agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman
that no sentiments could he more inconsistent that:
those which pretended to unite the love of Gets with
haled' to man; but that phrase at least proved that
there was in the minds of the Catholics of Ireland, a
deep and profound sense of injustice. The Right Hon.
Gentleman anticipated peace and prosperity &Com his
measure; but had he not the same anticipations from
the Insurrection Acts? He (Mr. Smith) did in his
conscience believe, that those Acts were pernicious. He
knew from the authority of some Gentlemen in official
stations at New South Wales. that the Irish who were
sent from their own country for infractions of its peace,
were the most respectable of the convicts. There was, in
his humble opinion, but one mode which would tran-
quillize Ireland, and that was, by granting to the Irish
Roman Catholics the same rights which were enjoyed
by their Protestant countrymen. He referred to Hano-
ver, and Maryland, in North America, as examples of
thegood effects arising from toleration; and he would
challenge the Right Hen. Secretary for the Home De-
partment to name a single instance where the most ex-
tensive toleration had produced any mischief. He sin-
cerely regretted that the Right Hon. Secreta
ryfor
Foreign Affairs should support-the measure now before
the House. Feeling the utmost gratitude to that Right
lion. Gentleman for the wise and statesman-like man-
ner in which he had conducted the negotiation for the
recognition of the new States of South America,
he was the more sorry that he should lend his aid to
a measure, of a character so entirely different, and
thus blasting the hopes which the Catholics naturally
entertained from his conduct on former occasions.—
He knew no objects more legitimate for a greet and enlightened
ambition than to heal the wooed* of Ireland: and that Right
Hon. Gentleman was, perhaps, the ouly man in the conatry who
could elk° It, and be (11r. &with) could imagine, that at the end
of his political life no sensation could be more *rim don that
which he *void feel at the recollection of mei minduct ; and he
could not persuade himself bet k would yet be the fate of the
Right Hon. Gentleman to do justice to Ireland- If the 11.11/188re)
when brought, in, 'bawd treod, at alien As rights of individuals,'
he would most assuredly oppose it.
Mr. A BERCROM BY said, he came to this question
with the greatest possible sorrow, breams* be was per•
waded, and indeed be was comfn:wed io that persuasion
by the candid ail' thou of the Right Honourable Gen-


deep and profound sense of injustice. The Rig
Gentleman anticipated peace sad prosperity 1
measure; but had he not the same anticipatio
the Insurrection Acts? He (Mr. Smith) did
conscience believe, that those Acts were pernici
knew from the authority of some Gentlemen i
stations at New South Wales. that the Irish lc
sent from their own country for infractions of i
were the most respectable of the convicts. The'
his humble opinion, but one mode which WOI
quillize Ireland, and that was, by granting to
Roman Catholics the same rights which were
by their Protestant countrymen. He referred t
ler, and Maryland, in North America, as tea
1 thegood effects arising flora toleration; and I
challenge the Right Hen. Secretary for the H
partment to name a single instance where the
tensive toleration had produced any mischief.
cerely regretted that the Right Hon. Seen
Foreign Affairs should support-the measure nc
the House. Feeling the utmost gratitude to tl
Hon. Gentleman for the wise and statesman-I
ner in which he had conducted the negociatio
recognition of the new States of South
he was the more sorry that he should lend I
a measure, of a character so entirely diffe
thus blastilg the hopes which the Catholics
\ entertained from his conduct on former Oa • He knew no
11 °hints more legitimate fora peat and
, J
ambition than to heal rho wounds of helm!: and
Hon. Gentleman was perhaps, the only man ia the e
could effect it, and tae (air. litakh) cold imagism, tha
1 of his political life no- seasotion could be more glories
which be would feel at the reeollection of each aim&
could not permit& himself but it would yet las the
Right Hon. Gentleman to do jusdee to Inlaid. If I
• I when brought in, should t
• he would most assur
rends at all on the rights of
' edly oppose it.
111 e. A BERCROM BY said, he came to thi
with the greatest possible sorrow, because bs
t• spaded, and indeed be was confirmed in that
4 by the candid admission of the Right Hamm