Star.
London, England, 1822-05-02 00:00:00

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of gesteritat anct they had also-estalislished the Sink- ioi at tie me' eft!? 9f the cunt% et ‘tomparitil with.
lug Fund I* the rellif of litisieritY.
.Tfie old credi-1 its expenditure, putting aside what exatid have bein
tors had'nes7tighr to demand a Sinking Fund of us.„ set apart for a Sinking Fund, he had &old that the
Thee 'had higher objects in view in establishing it.—: last four years-gave a us of: Revenue to the
Be could not better illustrate this than by referring
amount of four malice.. .1e had put a paper into
to tare greet measure of this Session—the reduction the bands of the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the
of the Five per Cents. And he called upon them to second day of the Session which proved this fact. But
state, if they had taken away the sinking. Fund a few while.such had been the state of the Revenue as coin-
years ago, as recommended by some of the Hon. pared with the expenditure of the country, the Chan-1
Gentlemen opposite, they would have had any pro. cellos of the Exchequer by borrowing money unne-
spect of being able to reduce the higher rate of inte- cessariiy as he 'contended, to keep up a nominal
rest? The 11on. Member for Bristol also said, that Sinking Fund, had incurred a great and useless ex-1
this plan would have the effect of taking from under perm; and by this course of proceeding, the 'sum or
their controul the whole of the superannuations.— £4,800,000 had been lost to the country-{Hear, hear).
This was not the fact. The Crown would still have The conduct of the Ministers was most inconsistent.
the power as before, and Parliament would possess In the first place, they called on the House to establish
the power of controuling the grants of the Crown in and preserve a clear Sinking Fund of £5,000,000,
%%slat regarded this five millions. His Right Hon. that those who might come after them should be ena-
yriend said to the contractors,“ I will give you such bled to meet any emergency that might arise, and
an annuity it you will enable me to pay the burdens then the Noble Lord came down. and called upon
on the nation yearly of such a description." They them not to mind posterity, but relieve themselves at
-mere of c .urse to have some profit for this; and there the present moment and throw the burden on the fu-
ended the . hole mystery of the case. The Chancel- cure. He hoped, whatever was done, the contract
for of tne Exchequer would have to make a bargain would be openly made, and that no favour would be
with the monied Gentlemen, and he must make the strewn to any of the parties, and that no private bar-
b!..,t bargain he could. The parties with whom he gain should be thought of—(Hear). He wished the
tees e i might gain, or they might lose. In the latter country to be relieved from the pressure of its pre-
case, the idea of the Hon. Gentleman; that at the end sent taxation. But he wished this to be done to the
of the 45 years the country would be more in debt amount now proposed by treating with the Commis-.
than it this plan had not been brought forward, must sioners of the Sinking Fund. This would be attended
prove incorrect. At the end of 45 years, however, with less trouble than would attach to any other
the atteueies must end, and then the country would mode of proceeding, and the beneficial result would
be relieved from the burden, having paid less at the be the same. Had there been no Sinking Fund, the
beginning, but more at the end of the period, than it country would have been 35 millions less in debt.
would otherwise have had to pay. In answer to the Should the House unfortunately sanction the mea-
observations made by the Hon. Member for Bristol, sure, the whole should be done by open competition.
he sheaved that the annuities to be granted would be The half-pay and pensions had nothing to do with
saleable like any kind of stock now in existence, and the measure.
cousequeialy the Contractors would be able to dispose The Marquis. of LONDONDERRY was surprised
of any portion of them at the market price. Ic fol- at the manner in which some Gentlemen in that House
therefore, that the stipulated payments might changed their views of particular subjects. He had
he itiztilarly made without being furnished from the that night found a host of champions starting up for
o the parties who made the first advances.— the Sinking Fund. He denied that the proposition
The y would be paying for sixteen years without the before the House went to touch the Sinking Fund at
dianze Any return being made, but they might all. What was the state of the case? They had a
"Isolate on returns within that period, as in the case Sinking Fund which was assumed to amount to five
of any ordinary loan. The parties who would be millions. This was to be tied up to increase with
treated with un this subject would of course have to compound interest. Was it to be maintained, then,
csnsi ,cr the probability of the continuance of peace, that the principle of that Sinking Fund was invaded,
aid the changes which might take place is the interest because it was proposed to. be augmented by com-
of money. It a long war should occur, and a change pound interest, instead of simple interest ? They then
take place in the interest of money, the speculation found a charge of £5,000,000 on account of the dead
might turn out more or less advantageous for them. expense growing out or the late war. This the Right
But in this matter the Gentlemen of the mom), mar- Hon. Gentleman had considered in the nature of
ket might solely be left to calculate for themselves; debt. It was like a debt in this instance, that the
but he thought that his Right Honourable Friend the faith of the nation was pledged to make good die
Chancellor of the Exchequer, with the assistance payments due to the individuals whose names were
which would be at his command, might also be on the list, but, strictly speaking, it was not before
'rated to negotiate this matter with them, in the them as a debt in any other sense. It was a charge
confideat expectation that he would endeavour to ob- which was covered by solid revenue, and the means
tarn a proper.price for the annuities. If this could of meeting it were already in existence. Now he
not be obtained from those with whom in the first would ask if Gentlemen meant to say, that as the
eistance he might think proper to treat—if they annuities fell in, if the present plan had not been
would not give what he considered he had a brought forward, they would have handed over their
eght to obtain, there were other means within his amount to the Sinking Fund ? Instead of this, he
;each by which he might afford the country the re- apprehended it would be given to the Public, as it
lief now contemplated. He defended the plan of rested with the House to remit taxes, or to give it to
spreading the charge over the ensuing forty-five the Fund, as might seem most expedient. To him it
rears, and thought that in this instance their conduct appeared fair that the charge of the dead expense
was not only justifiable, but that it was liberal towards shoold be divided in the manner proposed between
posterity, considering that the present generation the present generation and posterity. Did Gentlemen
had already done, and the immense burdens which it mean to say the slightest benefit was likely to be
bad submitted to bear during the continuance of the given to the Fund from the annuities falling in ?
war—(Neer, hear, heer).—He understood the cheer Were they bound to do so after acting as they had
which had been raised. He would not thus argue done on the noble principle of saving posterity from
with a Learned Gentleman who had joined in it, the burden of the late war, to an extent never before
whether or not that war had been just or necessary ; acted up to in any country, by submitting to a pro-
but assuming that such was its character, and that perty tax, which had taken from the people not less
the dead expense Row under consideration grew out than 150,000,0001.? Was it because they had done
of it, .he Would contend, that taking upon ourselves this, that after establishing a clear Sinking Fund
the average charge growing out of a like number of of 5,000,0004 they were bound to sacrifice to that
years, we were entitled to call our posterity to bear Sinking Fund any advantages that might arise from
a portion of it. If we now took upon ourselves from sources totally different. He thought that as the an-
two to three millions, we took upon ourselves more nuities, on falling in, were not to be carried to the
than the country would in all probability have to Sinking Fund, nothing could be mote clear than that
bear at any futere time, as it was not likely that it the present plan did not at all touch upon the Sink-
woult he sin called upon to bear the charges of ing Fund. It was, then, for the House to decide
such operations as had marked the late war, or that whether it would be serviceable to divide the charge
such burdens would again be thrown on the country between the present generation and posterity. He
as had grown out of the twenty-five years of warfare was convinced that acting so they would not deserve
in which the country had been engaged. the reproach of posterity ; and therefore the only
Mr. H. BRIGHT defended what he had previously question now was, in what manner could the surplus
adeariced, and maintained that the Resolutions now revenue of the country be best assisted ? Ile said
beer e the House would, if carried, preclude the this with respect to what was now called the dead
House from allinture inquiry into, and revision of, expense. But if in every year a quantum of charge
the state of the Superannuation Li-t. was likely to arise, bearing any proportion to that
Mr. HCSKISSON explained, and referred the Hon. which was now the subject of consideration, he should
Genttemail to the end of the second Resolution,which consider the proposed transfer of the burden as a du-
left the Supet emulation and Pension Lists open to bums, if not an objectionable lineof policy; The pre-
such regulation as Parl aament might think necessary sent charge was great beyond anything known before.
in any particular case. It was, as he had stated, sui generis—that, he believed,
Mr. FLUME thought the Resolutions before the was the expression he had used, and therefore poste-
House sly tended to mislead and perplex, and that city was sufficiently protected against any similar
it would be better to put them out of their considera- burthen. A way was thus opened which would not
Lion altogether, and borrow the money wanted on be open to them on ordinery occasions, to relieve the
account of the pensions at once. The present scheme country from part of the expense under which it at
was, in fact, raising a loan by way of annuity. This present laboured. It had been asked,what had lives
was the case at present, as we had a heavy debt which to do with the consideration of this subject ? He
it was wished to disnis:sh, and therefore a Sinking sheered that it was necessary to refer to the life-tables,
Fund of £3,000,000 had been established. It was at in order to ascertain the sum that would be wanted
the same time wished to diminish the present expen- to complete the operation now contemplated, and to
diture. In consequence of this, it was proposed to regulate die terms on which it should be obtained.
spread the expense of the Half-pay and Pension List The House had now to determine whether it would
over the next five and forty years. This was, in fact, bear the average expense of the existing claims for
creating a new debt; and the question of his Honour- forty-five years, or whether they should continue to
able Friend (the Member for Portarlington), whether bear the whole charge, subject to such diminution, as
at the end of that time we should not be more in debt, would occur front the annuities falling in. It was
if this plan was carried into effect, than we should for the House to decide on this question ; but he had
have been if it had never been brought forward, re- not expected that the moment when they had tied up
ruined unanswered. To create a new Stock was a a Sinking Fund of 5.000,0001. the arrangement pro.
measure of some difficulty. It was found that the posed, with respect to time dead expense, would bed
Public would not take so soon to a new Stock as to opposed by those who wished to pull down the whole
an old one, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer fabric of public credit—(Hear, hear). —[low these
could raise money easier by the Three per Cents. champions for the Sinking Fund had been induced
than the Three and a Half per Cents. He therefore to come forward he could not well understand, but
thought this " delicate and extraordinary transac- their aid was not mach wanted, as, without them, the
don,' as it was called, would be entered upon tinder Sinking Fund was going on very tolerably. He was
very disadvantageous terms. If a measure like that surprised at the alliance thus formed between the
now under consideration were to be adopted, the friends and the opponents of the Sinking Fund. Who-
best course would be to go to the Commissioners timer it was a holy alliance or an unholy alliance, he
of the SinkihA Fund to negotiate the arrangement. knew not and he cared not—(Laughter)—but, going
s—ln a former instance, by negotiating part of a loan on as they had begun, lie felt assured that the pi mei-
with them, three millions had been saved to the coun- pies on which Parliament had hitherto acted, would
try ; and had the whole of the loan, instead of half of carry the country through its present difficulties.
it, been so negociatvd, instead of the sum he had men- Mr. GRENFELL maintained, that whatever might
tiotted, sirmillions would have been saved. On look- be the merits or demerits of the present plan, et did