Star.
London, England, 1802-12-20 00:00:00

. .

P.AALIIMENtaItr PROCERDINGL

HOUSE OP LORDS...-PROTEST,
DIE maitenitd, Ipeo Decennia's, iSot.
MALT HILL.—It das moved, That the Order of the Day,
for the Houk to be put into a Committee upon the Bill, 'added,
" An Ad for continuing and granting to his Majefty certain
Duties upon Malt, Mum, Cyder, and Perry. for the ferv:oe
of the year one thoufand eight hundred and three," and for the
Lords to be fummoned, be now read ; which being objeded to,
after long debate, the queftion was put thereupon.--4t was
relayed in the Affirmative.
Diffentient—Becaufe the conftiratinnal argument which was
urged for fufpending the grant of any Supply, until the ac-
cultomed communication bad been made from the Crown to
Parliament, refts on two propofitions drawn front the law and
ufage of Parliament and from the very deuce of the Britilh
Conftitution.-.
Fiat, that no grant of Supply an in any cafe he made to the
Crown, except in confequenee of a previous demand for aid ;
And fecondly, that fuck demand mutt not only deferibe the
general Cervices for which the aid is afked, but aloft alto fpecify
whether thofe krvices are calculated on an expedtation of peace
or of war. or of preparation for war.
There two propofitions have been invariably adopted in the
practice of our Conftitution. No inftance hat yet been alledged
in which they have ever been violated, except in the prefent
cafe, and their maintenance is effential to the dikharge of all
our moft important duties. If Parliament can alone decide
upon the amount of the Supply to be granted, it is obvious that
Parliament muft be informed of the extent and nature of the
Cervices which that Supply is to defray; a queftion which mutt
always drentiany depend on the probability or certainty of
peace or war.
For the rotation of this qteftion we are now referred to pub-
lic notoriety alone.
We anfwer. that the Conftitution of our country entitles us
to more authentic information; that fuch is the conrfe which
the law and ufage of the Parliament have eftablilbed; and that
unlefs the uniform pradlice of our anceltors be adhered to in
this rerpedt, we can neither fatisfadorily regulate oar' own con-
due., nor judge as we ought of the meafures of Government.
But we deny that any notoriety as to the point in qua lion
does in fail exift. The dangers of the country are indeed fur-
ficiendy notorious; but Parliament is yet to learn by what (yr-
tan of conduct the King's Government propo(es to avert or to
encounter chore dangers. The determinations of the Minifters,
as far as we know them, have been uncertain and fludtuadng.
their councils undecided, their meafures inconfiftait,and their
language contradictory. We are called upon to provide for ED
dtablilhment large beyond all former exampk ; but we have
not yet been diftindly told, not even in debate, much lefs in
the conftitutional way of communication from the Throne,
what is the purpok for which it is intended to provide—whe-
ther this be a peace eitabliffiment calculated to laft until the
power of France be reduced or her ambition fatiated ; or whe-
ther it be a meafure of temporary preparation which is to apply
to. tome actual preffure, or to fupport Tome depending negocia-
don ; or laftly, whether it be intended to meet the imminent
danger of immediate war, and to raft the continued growth of
that Power which hourly th-eatens our own ddtrudion.
In this fituition. yielding to no men in duty, loyalty, and at-
tachment to the Crown, and feeling more anxious for the im-
mediate adoption of aU pradicable means of defence, in pro-
portion as our fe.nfe of the impending danger is greater, we are
MU &firma that Tome Dion interval and paufe fhould take
place before the final grant of any Supply; though we defire
that fuch interval iliould be no more than will be fufficient to
enable his Majefty to thew to us the fame gracious confidence
which his Ma,efty and his royal ancefton have repofed in all
preceding Parliaments, and to place us in a fituation in which
we may, without violating the Conftitution of our country,
cheerfully concur in granting to his MajeftY all Inch aids as the
prefent exigency of affairs does, in our opinion, peculiarly do.
mud. (Signed) SPENCER.
GRENVILLE.
CARTSFORT.
CARLISLE.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, SATURDAY, DEC. z*.
The Englifh Militia Amendment Bill was committed, the
report received, the Amendments agreed to, sad the Bill Or-
dered to be read a third time on Monday.
The Woollen Manutadlory Bill was read a third time, and
patted.
The Report on the Sugar Drawback Bill was agreed to, and
the Bill ordered for a third reading on Monday.
The Report of the Committee on the Expiring Laws Bill was
agreed to, and a Bill ordered to be brought in in purruance
ti e 'ed. •
The Malt Trading Bill was read a third time, and paired.
The Bill for continuing an Adt for the Importation of Pro-
vifions into Ireland, was' read a firft and fecond time, and or- '
dared to be committed on Monday.
The kith Militia Pay Bill was read a third time, and palled.
The I•ifh Sugar Drawback Bill was committed, the Report
agreed to, and ordered to he read a third time on Monday.
Captain MARxtlAst moved the Order of the Day
for the third reading of the Naval Commiffioners'
Bill.
Lord FOLESTONE role, and objeded to the third
reading now, and hoped it would be put off till
after the recefs, on the ground, that as the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had allowed that it had
f 6 long been deferred, becaufe the country was
then in danger from the war, he had as great a
right to fay, that it fhould be poflponed for that
(hors fpace of time, as he thought the country was
at this moment in as great a ft-ate of danger as it
was during the war. He by no means withed to
defeat the purpofes of the Bill, for he thought it
unexceptionable in its provifions ; but he thought
alfo that fo little time had been allowed for its con-
fideration, that he could not now fuller it to be'
read a third time. He therefore moved, thai
(lead of the word " now" be inferted " the Bth of
February."
Mr. LEMON fcconded the motion, and obferved,
that in his opinion the Bill would be an as polifaito
law, that as fuch it would 'radially affect the
rules of evidence, which are fo important to the
effcntial fupport of the laws of the land ; and he
o,lild not therefore fuller a Bill of fuch high impor-
tance to be read a third time, without being more
maturely and deliberately confidered than this,
in its rapid progrefs through the Route, had been.
Mr. COURTIINAY warmly fupported the third
reading. The Hon. Gentleman who objeded to
it had, he Paid, owned that the Bill was unobjec-
tionable, and that, in his mind, was one of the
ftrongea reafons why it fhould be !Sailed immedi-
ately. It was a Bill to enquire into abufes of the
moft enormous kind, that had too long fubfifted,
and called moft imperioufly for inflantaneous re-
drefs. It was a Bill that reflected the hi heft ho-
nour on the eminent character of the Noble Earl
who recommended it. It was impoffible, he Paid,
that the Consmiffioners of the Navy could invefti.
gate the long and complicated accounts of five
hundred Prise Agents, with the numerous train
of other Accountants, who were equally ready to
commit depredations on the Public. Gentlemen
talked a great deal about inereafing the patronage
of the Crown, and he was aftonifbed to fee them
In that cafe fo very failidions. This is a clear proof
to him that their objections were to men and not
to meafures. He was certain theft objections
would not have been made by the oppofers ofthe
Bill Tome time ago and therefore he fhould vote
for the Order of-tl4 Day.
Lord FOLg ITO II explained,

The CRAlltentot of theitibliwaa !kid, that
the *Rion of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Lemon)
went spina the Pill)i pang at all. He allowed
that it was an ex psi festiolaw, as all the Bills
mull be, which are for an enquiry into-abufes.—
The Noble Lord, who moved the Amendment,
had Paid, that the Rate of the country was as pe-
rilous as in 1797. This he could not agree to;
but even granting this to be the cafe, it Is a dif-
ferent fpectes of danger, and therefore the Bill
might have that operation with fafetynow,it could
not then. It was impoffible, however, the oppofers
of it could ferioufly think, that if it was fo objec.
tionable now, it could pals in fix weeks hence.—
He concurred with all thole fentiments expreffed
by the Hon. Gentleman oppofite,(Mr. Courtenay)
relative to the Bill, but in none more than the
high encomium he had beftowed on the Noble
Lord who recommended this Bill, which he doubt-
ed not would remain in the opinion of the Public
an everlaßing monument to his honour.
Lord FOLKSTON a explained.
The Hon. Mr. KIN NAIRD Paid the bill was of
the higheft national importance, and he objeeted
to its being now read a third time, becaufe he wits
convinced it did not come forward with the great
authority of his Majefty's Law Officers. On a
former oceafion he had moved for the Admiralty
and Navy Board Patents, but he found he &odd
have moved for a great many other Patents and
Papers, which he was anxious the Idoure should
read before the bill paffed, .by which they will
find, that frtim the time of James 11. thefe Boards
have been invefted with powers to enquire into
all the abufes complained of. Another point he
had to complain of was, that the Houfe had de-
parted from its ufual jealoufy and fcrupulofity of
the Crown appointing any of its Members to offices
of profit. The Right Hbn. Gentleman had Paid,
that he did not know whether thefe offices were to
have profits attached to them ; but he perceived,
that by claufe C. they were made refponfible
for what they did, and therefore he thought there
mull be profits attached to them.
Mr. SvnitGess exprefTed himfelf perfatly fejt*.
fied with the oppofition he had given to the bill.
He was one of the firft who began it, and he ap•
pealed to the Houfe, if the bill was not almoft to-
tally different to that &it brought into the Houfe.
He had as much admiration ofthe fplendid naval
talents and charaCter of the Noble Lord at the
head of the Admiralty as any man, but could not
view his condu& in the fame Fen, With regard to
fome of his proceedings in the civil departments of
the Admiralty. He was induced to fay this in vin-
dication of himfelf, to whom fome perfons had at-
tributed fordid and interefted motives in his oppo-
fition to this bill. He intianced the cafes of Admi-
ral Sir William Parker, and a venerable and vete-
ran General, whole name he did not mention,
both of whom the Noble Lord at the head of the
Admiralty, had brought to trial, on very ferious
charges, and who were both not only molt honour.
ably acquitted, but the charges were bothdeclared
frivolous and vexatious. For his own part, he
could have no intereil in fcreening any of thofe de-1
Unguents, for he was not in any of thofe offices,
and therefore what he laid at prefent was
merely in vindication of himfelf; for, as to the
bill, he fhonld not fay one fingle word more upon
it, after the oppofition he had given it in all its for-
mer flages. •
Mr. FtILLIIR -Aced, if the bill paired, whether it
was the intention of Government to enter imme-
diately on the bufinefs of the Prize Agents ?
The CriancscLoa of the Excascursx answered,
that would depend on the proceedings of the Com-
miffioners, who were the bell judges what ought
to be done firft.

Mr. Wall) went over nearly the fame ground
he did on Friday night, and mulled that this was
not a new Tribunal. In the beginning of the reign
of Charles 11. a Commillion was appointed by the
Houle to enquire into all manner of abufes, and in
the t3th and lath of the fame reign, another
Commiffion of the fame kind, by which powers to
the fame extent were given. It might be faid
that this was a reign not very favourable to quote
precedents from. He allowed it was a very arbi-
trary reign, but there were good precedents, for
the Commiftioners were appointed by the Honk,
and ,his Majefly was very angry with his Com-
mons for interfering with the concerns of his
Treafury.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL laid, the queftion
, was, whether the Bill fhouki be deferred for fix
weeks? Gentlemen did not pretend to fay they
did not underfland the Bill ; fome Gentlemen in-
deeditrho he thought were determined to obilrue
the meafures of Government, had objeaed to the
principle of the Bill, but their arguments had been
repeatedly lillened to, and as the Houfe had fuf-
fered the Bill to proceed thus far, and it was of
the higheft importance to give it effect as foon as
poffible, he mull oppofe the Amendment.
Earl TEMrr.e faid, that he and thole with whom
he acted, had been repeatedly and perfonally ac-
cufed by the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
who had juft fat down, with oppofing men and
not meafures, and that now they wanted to ob.
ftruet the meafures of Government. He mull,
however, tell that Learned Gentleman, that al-
luding to particular perfons, and attributing to
them particular motives for their condua in Par-
liament, was diforderly and unparliamentary lan-
guage, and ought not to be permitted. He wifhed
to have abufes corrected, but then he would have
that correaion made in a eoultitntional manner ;
and he thought the prefent Bill had been fhame-
fully harried through the Houle. He had two
queftions to alt of his Majefty's Minifters before
he fat down—firft, Whether the Gentlemen,
named as Commiffioners by the Bill, had fignified
their acceptance ?—fecondly, How far the retro
fpea was to be allowed to go back ; whether they
were to look as far back as the reign of James IL
to find out who were reprefentatives of perfons then
in office, that they might call them to anfwer for
mifapplications, &a.?
Mr. SMIRIDAII faid, that no man could more
cordially agree than he did, with the fentiments
of the Noble Earl who had kill fat down, refpea-
ing the ufe of perfonalities In the Debates of that
Woufe, and be-ebought the obfetvation came

called
Huelinhgadanneyvepreerafollietadlihtiiessmianiehaisy-,s
with pettatar three, as well as grace, from h
N9ble Lord, who had always fo carefully abritA-3,t
fu rteh
et than docfa
this
own lan.
ple
egndinftarfgareron " a thing of fhreds and patchesA"-...dt
had never, when f'eaking of Minißers
thitamtsitot
downre mtahwe k
ever
tbeenhem doled fae
country." His Lordtkip had ever avoided thefe
things, and therefore mull have convinced the
Houfe, by precept as well as by practice, how
ttemely wrong it was in the Right Hon.
andz-
Learned Gentleman to ufe aay thing like
per..r
oea.
lilies to him, and thole with whom he aced.-..
As to the Bill itfelf, he had not yet heard one
fingle word that weighed at all againil it, and he
thought it was fo wife and falutary a meafure, tit at
it ought not only to be paired directly, but with
gratitude to thofc who recommended it, as well
as thofe who brought it forward. An Hon Gen
tieman, who had lately become a Member of that.
Houle, (Mr. Kinnaird) had fail, that he moved
for the Admiralty and Navy Patents, to fee if thefe
Boards were not already veiled with the powers
given by this Ad, but he found he had not gone
far enough back ; and that the Patents of James
11. had given thefe Boards powers to do all this.
If, then, they had the powers, and had to long
delayed or neglected to tiff them, he thought a
ftrongerreafon could not he given in favour olthe
Bill. If the late Adminiftration had remained, be
believed they would 'have brought in the fame
Bill, and the Houle would not have had the Noble
Lord's oppofition to it. Another Hon. Gentle-
man had objected to the Bill, as being ex poil fade
in its operation ; this was certainly the cafe, and
yet ex ptifl faao proceedings were very often pro.
dudive of the greateft good. He remembered a
Rory of Queen Elizabeth, who in proceeding front
one place to another had loft her purfe; there
was a great buftle about it, and the quellion was,
how they fhould find where it was, or what was
gone with it ? Lord Burleigh's anfvver was—.
" Where do you cape& to find your purfe?—won't
you go back to look for it ?" He had heard a great
many clamours and charges againft the Noble
Lord at the head of the Admiralty, about difmif.
fang different perfons from their [cations. He
could not believe, from what he knew of that No.
ble Lord's high charaCter, that he would ever dit.
mils any one who did not deferve to be fo difmitTed.
Where he law an oppofition avowedly begun, by
Rating that they do not like Mini tiers, and that they
think they ought to fill filch men's places, he could
not but fufpat their motives; though he would
not make any fuch allufions at prefent—(a hearty
laugh). He hoped therefore the Bill would pats,
and when the fignal for correcting abufes was thus
given from the high top-gallant-malt head of the
Admiralty, he hoped loon to fee the example fol.
lowed bj every other department in the kingdom.
Mr. ELLISON, Mr. HARBORD, and Mr. AM.
ANDER, all (poke in favour of the Bill.
The CNANCELLOR of the Excat (Lust Paid, two
queftions had been put to him by a Noble Lord,
which he thought extraordinary a—The Grit, whe.
ther the Commiffioners had accepted ? was irre-
gular ; he had fat in the Houle near twenty years,
and hall. never heard loch a queftion before. In
every inftance the relation of individuals had or;.
ginated with Government, and were not the effea
of applications ; but the fat is, acceptance is not
neeeffary. By the Ad of the 25th of his preterit
Majefly, it will be teen, that fo far from accep-
tance being necetrary before the palling of the
Bill, a claufe provides in cafe ,of their refuted. In
the prefent cafe, however, in four inftances out of
the five, the acceptances have been declared. In
the fifth it is not yet known to the individual, and
therefore not given. As to the fecund quellion, with
refpeEt to the retroepea, that he could not antiver;
it mull be left to the Commiffioners.

Capt. MARKHAM faid, it eas ungenerous to at•
tack the Noble Lord at the head of the Admi-
ralty for alts to which the whole Board were privy
and contenting. If Hon. Gentlemen have any
charge, he hoped they would bring it forward in
a manly manner, and not in that fnake-inahegrafs
way in which it had been done.
Lord Peciax entered into a jnflification of what
he had faid in the courfe of the debates on she pre.
fent Bill. When he fira afked at the Admiralty
the reafon for the difmigral of the perfon at Ply-
mouth he had mentioned, he was told the Admiral-
ty did not give their reafons for dilmittils. He bad
fince been informed, the perfon he had alluded to,
had an opportunity given him to clear himfelf,
which he had not taken advantage of; he, there-
fore, thought him guilty, and took this opportu-
nity of declaring to the Houfe, that his opinion of
the cafe was entirely altered. He hoped the Hon.
Gentleman (Capt. Markham) would not believe
that he would fpeak any thing, either of the Noble
Lord at the head "of the Admiralty, or of any one
elfe, as it were, behind a fcreen.
The queflion was then put, that the Bill be then
read a third time and agreed to.
In the courfc of moving amendments to the Bill,
Mr. SHER:DAN hid, 11C fhould have liked the
Bill much better if no Members of Parliament
had been Commitlioners ' • but as he had heard two
of them were profeffional Gentlemen, of fuch ho-
nour and talents, that their not being in the Corn.
mil Lon would be a public lots, it had foinewhat
reconciled him. He did not like to increafe the
patronage of the Crown. In cafe of the death,
or refufal to accept, of any of thefe Conintii=
fioners, the nomination was in the Crown. He
fhould, therefore, move an amendment, that per,
font fo nominated fhould not be Members of Par-
Lament.
A claufc was brought up, giving a power to the
Commiflioners to allow incidental expences to
Clerks and other perfons.
The Bill was recommitted, the dance agreed
'to, and added, and the report brought up and
agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE•VER fdid, the
jealoufy of the Houfe of the appointments of an!
of its Members by the Crown to
places of profit.
was one of its mollimportant funetions; and far
be it from him to lelfen it. He thought, however,
it might be carried too far, arid he should look
'with regret.to any circumEtance, &has ibould de*