Star.
London, England, 1807-03-06 00:00:00

NOMINEES.

Sir A. WeHaley H. C. Combe, Efq.
Mr. FRERMANTLE moved for a new writ for the borough
of Carrickfergus.
Lord HOWICK moved for an account of the times of fervice of
Drake, acid Weatherhead, (two of Mr. Patas wit-
mires) in his Majeftyk's navy, together with the amount of the
penfion to the former, if any, and the oceafion of it. Ordered.

Lord HOWICK alfo moved, that the Houfc fhould he called
over on Tuefday next, and that the names of the defaulters to-day,
mould be then read over.

CATHOLICS.

Lord HOWICK role for the propofe, he raid, of
bringing in a Bill, purfuant to the notice he had given,
for fecuring to all claffes of his hiajeny's fubj:as the
privilege of ferving in the Navy and Army, and the
free exercife of their religion while therein employed.
The only condition which he fhould propofe to be an-
nexed to this, was the fecurity of an oath; and thus pro.
Ceded, he could not imagine that any objeftions could
be made to the meafure he intended to fubmit to the
Houfe. The objeft of the Bill, in fhort, which he
meant to propofe, was to unite the whole of the Em-
pire in its defence, and to prevent any portion of its
population from being excluded from that honourable
pi ivilege, at a time when we were liable to be attacked
by a Power which had overwhelmed the greaten part
of Europe. It was not his bufinefs or intention, at
prefent, to difcufs the propriety of the laws which ex•
eluded numerous claffes of the fubjeas of this realm
from cer Lain places of truft and profit, or to queftit n
the right of every Government to enaft fuch laws.—
The fajta would always be a que Ilion of expediency.
It was generally fuppofed that religious and political
opinions were identified with each other, and it was
upon this minakennotion that the principle of exc'uti n
had been fo long jutlified. If, however, it fhould be
found that this identification of religious and political
opinion had long fince ceafed to exin, he trulled the
Houfe would agree with him that it was time the re-
firiftion ta which the exiftence or fufpicion of it had
given rife, fhould be done away. If what he Mated
fhould be made out to the fatisfation of the Honk,
as he trufted it would, this confequence would fol-
low, that it would be highly unjuft to exclude the
Catholics of Ireland and England, who ccoftituted
one-fourth of the population of the empire, from the
privilege of ferving it. He was relieved from much
of the tififficulty incidental to this fubje:t, by circant-
(lances which he would (tate to the Houfe. A ma-
jority of the Army and Navy, and particularly of
the latter, was at this very moment compofed of.
Catholics. At this moment, too, by a law paired in
the frith Parliament, in 1793, Catholics have a pri-
vilege of holding Commiffions in that country. The
objet of the Bill which he meant to propofe was,
to extend this privilege generally, and to perfons of
all religious perfuafions, fubjeft to the oath which
he fhould annex to it. The attention of his Majefty's
Government was firft drawn to this fubjeil, by the
extreme hardfhip of the cafe, and the ft range ano-
maly of law having force in one part of the Em-
pire, which was not recognized in the other. By
the Aft of 1793, perfons of the Catholic perfuafion
were at liberty to enter into the army, to advar/ce
and obtain rank in it, fubjea only to the following
reftriaions : that they could neither fill the office
of Commander in Chief, Mailer General of the
Ordnance, or General on the Staff. To all other
military employments and offices whatever they were
eligible. This Aft gave rife to one of the muft [kik-
ing incongruities which could occur in any country.
By this Aft, an officer could head his battalion or
regiment in Ireland, but if an invafion of this coun-
try, a reb:llion, or any other circumftance, fhould
render it neceffary for him to come to this country,
the moment that he fet his foot on Br itifh ground he
became difqualified ; he mull either renounce his pro-
feffion and his rank, the fcanty remuneration for hard
and vati.ms fervice, or remain in it, lubjea to the
anxiety and uneafinefs to which he mutt continue
expofed as long as the prefent prohibitory law was in
(wee. He was perfuaded that he had only to men.
tion this difficulty to the Houfe to induce it to cor-
rea the inconvenience produced by it. This abfur-
dity was ftrongiy felt in Ireland at the time, and the
then Secretary of Stare in that country (Lord Buc-
kinghamfhirei pledged himfelf in the Commons, as
did Lord Clare in the Irifh Houfe of Lords, that a
bill fhould be brought into the Englifh Parliament
to remove this incontinency. It was for the pur-
pole of putting an end to this anomaly, and redeem.
ing that pledge, that the would offer to the Houfe
the bill of which he had gives' notice. He wi(hed the
Alt of 1793, or at leap the principle of it, to be ex-
tended to this part of the empire. This was not the
proper time for him to expatiate on the merits of the
Catholic officers, or to lay before the Houfe the emi.
nent rvices which they had rendered to their coun-
try rat the (bores of-Egypt and Calabria. In another
Itait of the b,ll, he would have much to fay on the

gallantry, the !kill, the loyalty, and the fpirit which
they difplayed every where, and on every fervice in
which they had been employed. Thefe would be
the fubjett of the approbafi,n and gratitude not of
him alone, but, he truffed, of ever y man in the Houk,
capable of appreciating eminent fervices rendered to
his country. His t.bj ft was to do that generally for
perfons of all religious perfuallous, which was at pre-
tent permitted in Ireland, and to extend to every one
the privilege of defending his country. To this, as
far as the general feeling of this country went, he
thought there could be no objettion. (Hear, hear!)
The difference between the Irith Act, and the Bill
which he intended to offer to the Houk, was this. In
the Mill AB, this privilege, or right, as he ihould
rather call it, was applicable fir the army alone, and
for this reafon, that Ireland had no navy. The pre-
fent Bill would allow perfons of all religions, to
f:rve both in the Army and Navy. In the propriety
of this, he was perfuaded, the Hou'e would agree
with him. If Catholics were allowed to firve in
the army, he was at a lots to difcover any reafonable
grounds for objeeting to their fee ving in the navy alfo.
If any poiale danger could arife from allowing
Catholics to ferve in the army, that danger mug be
greaten when they were ferving in a Catholic coun-
y; and yet, by a mange inconfillency, they were
allowed to fei ve in Ireland, where there were 3,c00,0rz0

of Catholic population, and they were Prohibited
from ferving in England, where the perfons profef-
ling the Catholic religion did not conßitute a greater
proportion than one in twenty of the other religious
perfuafinns. In the Bill which he fhould propofe, it
was not his intention to continue the rettriftions of
the Irifh A& He law no good reafon why an Ofli
cer, profeffing the Catholic religion, fhould not be
eligible to the offices from which he was excluded by
the provitinns of that Ad. For his part, he faw no
danger in it. He would propofe that they fhould be
admitted generally, and without reftriftion, both into
the army and navy. This he would propofe on the

fame principle that the laws of both countries were
aflimilated. It was unneceffitry for him to point out
to the Houfe the inconvenience wiling from the ex-
;fling reftriaion. As the law flood at prefent, an
Officer might ferve with ditlinaion and pre-eminence
as a Major 9r a Colonel, but the moment he attained
to a higher rank, his country became deprived of the
benefit of his fervices. The reariaion was a difad-
vantage to the Country and the Service. As a
fecurity, no perfon could fuppofe for a monment, that
it was worth any thing. It would always be in the'
difcretion of the Executive Government to employ
whom it pleafed. The refiriaion, in fail, could tend
to no good effea whatever, and might poffibly give
rife to much difcontent. It would be the objet of
the Bill, not only to open the army and navy to per-
fons of all religions, but to fecure to thofe who were
already employed the fame privilege. It might be
objeaed to him, that provition might be made for
this in another way. He would be told, perhaps,
that this free exercife of religion praeically exifts.—
To this, he would anfwer, that he was afraid it was
not always fo. He had become acquainted with fome
infiances, in which no liberality of this kind was dig.-
played. The effet of there intlances was to excite
dilcontent, to prevent people from engaging. in the
army and navy, and to diffufe general fufpictou and
apprehenfion of infecurity. To prevent the pnflibi-
lity of the recurrence of any fuch vexations fur the
future, was a chief motive with him for bringing in
c the prefent bill. He did not fuppofe that much ob-
jeaion could be made to it in the fire flage, particu-
larly when its objea was of fo liberal a nature, as to
provide that Diffenters of any kind than not be inter.
rived in the exercife of their religion. It would, per-
haps, be a latisfaaion to thole who might not be
very cordial in their approbation of the principle of
this Bill, to learn, that it was not intended that any
religious eftablithment timid be connelled with it.
It would require neither pliefts nor chaplains. He
hoped when the lubjea was coolly and difpaffionately
confidered, that there would be no objeftion to the
Bill. He would not enter further into the quellion
at prefent, but referve himfelf for the arguments
which might be offered againQ it. His Lordfitip
concluded with moving, for leave to bting in a Bill
to allow perfons of all Religions Perfuations to cuter
into the Army and Navy, and to fecore to them the
free exercife of their religion, &c. &c.
Mr. PERCEVAL role, not fo much to ohjea to
the particular meafure which was propofed, as to
exprefs his fears that this was but the beginning of a
fytlem which would, in its confequences, when fully
thfcloied, be highly dangerous to the conititut ion and
Proteflant Ellablifbment of this country. He per-
ceived that, liep by Rep, and from day to day, they
were bringing forward meafures which, he thought,
moil end in the total repeal of tens in this country.
He therefore confidered this bill as a partial repeal
of the Teti Aft. He could not confider that it would
be for the intereft of Ireland, as he was firmly per-
bladed that nothing was more important for the wet.
fare of Ireland than a Protellant Ellablifhtnent, and
a Proteltant afcendency. There was no man who
was a greater friend to toleration than himfelf, or
who would more with that every perfon should have
the free exercife of his religion ; but it was becaufe
he was a friend to toleration that he did not with to
favour a religion which had been always intolerant
when in power, to the prejudice of the Eflablithed
Religion, which had always praaited toleration. It
was always on the ground of toleration that thofc
innovations were brought forward. One day, in the
name of toleration, the Houfe was called upon to
grant a confider able funs of money to educate Priefts,
to, the purpofe of preaching the Catholic Religion to
3,000 coo of people, and the next day they were cal-
led on to grant !till farther ccinceffions. The reafon-
ing of the Honourable Gentlemen who fupported
thole perpetual conceffions, appeared to reQ on this
principle, that one religion is very newly as good as
another, and that, therefore, no man's religion fhould
difqualify him from political power. 1 hey teemed to
think that the Reformation itfelf v-as a mere political
mature. The Noble Lord (Howick) had profeffed
the moll decided and abfolute preference of the Ella-
blithed Religion, but Rill had voted for the granting
funds to the preachers of the Catholic Religion.—
Many might fuppofe that this was quite agreeable,
not only to liberality of fentiment but to found policy,
but he entertained an opinion direaly contrary. He
thought that the objeft of the Noble Lord would be
completely anfwered by regulations in the articles of
war which his Majefty might at any time introduce.
But, even as the law now (toed, he confidered the

Catholic as coveted from the effeaa of any of the old
Aftc. The Mutiny Bill enabled his Majetty to call for
the fervice 01411 his fuhjees, on pain of death if they
difobeyed : what occation, therefore, had the Noble
Lord to introduce a new Bill, for enabling his Majefly
to accept the fervice of any of his fubjeas ? He dif-
appr"ved very much of the mode in which Govern.
ment prcceede). to fritter away the Proteflant afcen-
dancy in Ireland, but should take a future opportu-
nity of delivering his opinions at greater length on
that important fubjed.
Lord TEMPLE contended, that the whole of the
arguments of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
went the length of overturning every principle of
policy and juflice which one fed of Chriflians was
bound to entertain for another. They were argu
ments better calculated for the dark ages of unenlight-
ened man, than for the more polithed are of the igth
century. He called to that Honourable Gentleman's
recolledion, the circumllances which he Warta- on
a former occalion acknowledged, that many perfons
in the Catholic pettirafion were aheady in the army,
and he appealed to his candour, whether in the con-
do& of officer or private, he ever knew or heard of
one clamorous event throughout that army atifing
from teligiolis prejudices? If any thing could give
them a title to confederation, that certainly ought,
and a fLoncter recommendation they could not have.
Mr. YORKE did not object to the principle of the
Bill, efpecially as the Irith Parliament had recog.
nized it ; and he thought that the Britith could.not
do let's than follow their example; and he waaallo
free to confers that the Bill was aging with i jug
regard to reciprocal rights, when its enacting chutes
were extended to the navy ; but he was Tather apt
prehetifive that the Noble Lord (Temple) went a
little toe far, when he charged the precautions of our
anceflors in the reflrkling laws which they made
againft Popery, as arifing from the prejudices of
the dark ages. He would bring to that Noble Lord's
mind the epochs when thofe laws were made. They
were made at the perild when they connituted and
formed the Bill of Rights ; when they ellablifhed
and fecured the public liberty ; and when they placed
the Houfe cf Hanover upon the Throne of thefe
Realms. It was true, however, that the dangers
that exifled when thefe reflri9ing laws were made,
had, in a great degree, ceafed, and he was therefore
of opinion, that a relaxation of their feverer prohi.
bitions was now nectifary ; but thefe matters of re-
laxation fhould be adopted with a cautious regard to
public fafety ; it was quite impodible for him or for
any man to forget the melancholy and tragic fcenes
that occurred in Ireland in 179 S ; and; with thefe in
remembrance, it was impnffible not to apprehend
that too rapid a relaxation might lead to the mon
dangerous confequences. The Bill, however, as far
as he had an opportunity of confidering it, had his
fupport, but he would net pledge hirofelf to the
whole of its enacting claufes. The Catholics of Eng-
land had, for a (cries of years, been examples of pa-
tience ; they had undergone the molt wondrous pur-
gation, and never murmured. They deferved every
confederation that could be paid to them, and he had
only to lament that, as often as the events of the year
:798 occurred to his mind, he could not fay fo much
of thole belonging to another part of the Empire.
But, as he hoped thole effetvelcences would fubfide,
fo he alto trulied they would hereafter deferre well
of the reit of their Fellow citizens. That the religious
prejudices of thole men who ferved in the army had
fuhfided, he himfelf knew many initances. He knew
them go to far as that when the privates went to
church, feveral of their officers, who were Catholics,
went thither along with them as regularly and as
correttly as if they had been educated in the tenets
of the ellabliihed religion of the country.
Mr. MONTAGUE conlidered the :maitre under
contemplation as dangerous and inimical to the peace
of the Empire. He was certain that the indul-
gence of permitting Papias to enter the Army and
Navy would lead to their ad million to the civil and
high offices of the State ; the confequences thereof,
mull, in the event, be fatal to the country. He an-
ticipated the confufron which it would create in the
Navy, where, inflead of having one peaceable and
orderly Clergyman of the Eflabliffied Church, there
might he colleCted together in the fame (hip a dozen
of Popifh Prietts, to divert the crew from their duty,
and annoy them with religious priLciples and dif-

cipline.
[ At this latter remark the Members on the Tmfury Bench and
nearly the while Houle. laughed molt heartily. The Hon. Gen-
tleman was. however proceeding, when Mr. Youx called to order,
and complained that it was unfair, not to fay impolite, to prevent
his Hon. Friend having a fair hearing. The Houle became calm,
and Mr Montague went on.]
He Paid, he would exprefs his fentiments as an Eng.
Mir Member of Parliament, and not be deterred by
either laughs or gettures, whether they proceeded
from the Noble Lord (Howick) oppolite to him, or
from any other quarter. He charged the Houle to
advert to the dreadful occurrences that happened in
this City, in the ye•+r 1 780 ; and warned them to be•
ware how they attempted like meafures, which might
provoke like fcenes, and probably envelope in flames
the houfe of that Noble Lord himfelf, in common
with the houfes of others who then heard him.
Mr. FREEMANTLE defired Gentlemen would
withhold their fears of what was contained in the
Bill till they fhnuld read it ; as it was, he could affitre
them it would not contain one fyllable regarding Ca-
tholic Clergy, and they might telt perfuaded, that
nothing of its contents bore upon the Connitution of
the country.
Mr. PLOMER was convinced the meafure would
be produelive of the hippiell effetfts ; and he truQed
that no flight difference of opinion would prevent its
palling into a law, and thereby deprive the country
of fo great, fo ufeful, and fo effeelive a body of men
as the Catholics. _ _

Mr. CORRY apprized the Houfe, that this was a
meature of policy, not of religion. It was to pre-
vent men from furnifhing foreign Rates with that aid
which their courage would produce, arid that tare
which would mote happily and fortunately Chine up-
on them in their country's . tide.
Mr. HAWKINS BItOWNE was againtl the bill,
as he confidered it an inlet to give encouragement to
a religion dangerous to civil liberty, and deftrative
of the Conllitution of this country. He was fearful
it would create alarm through the kingdom, and he
cautioned MiniQers accordingly. But if it could be
rettridled to officers of the army and navy, without
creating fufpicions that it was only the prelude to
greater and more ferious innnvations, he could not
continently with his clnrcience oppofe it. As this,

however, remised to he ken, he &old typal to be
convinced that his arehenlions were unfounded,
before even in this tape he would content to the
meafure.

Lord HOWICK did net melt, upon a motion
for leave to bring in the Bill, that any fuch difeuf-
lion would have taken place as had occurred ; but,
in confeqnence of what had fallen from tome Gen-
tlemen, he thought it requifite to fay a few words,
not only in explanation, but in jollification of him-
felf. One Honourable Gentleman had exprelled his
fears that the Bill might be produBive of thole fcenes
that difgraced London in 1780. But he would a&
' that Gentleman, whether the Catholics canfed thole
horrid circumfiances ? or rather he could tell that
Honourable Gentleman that thole fcenes arofe from
fuch fpeeches as the Honourable Gentleman had
jug made, and uttered by a Member in that Houle, ,
in a way exaElly fimilar. It was them the alarm i
originated, and not out of doors. He trolled, if '
h 6 houfe %mild fall a facrifice, that it would not
become hi. lot to aecufe the Honourable Gentleman
as being the caufe of it. An Honourable and Learned
Gentleman alto had Rated that the Bill would have
the ea& of a compulfory meafore ; but lie mull be
pardoned, if, on this occafion, he doubted that
Gentleman's law on the fubjeet. His opirion upon
what he confidered a compulfory meafure cn the
former occafion, was already before the Public (al-
luding to an opinion profejlonally given by the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman relative to the Polunieert) and the
Houle would judge of his opinion on this fubjea, by
the erpinionhe publifhed upon that occafion. To Speak
his mind freely on the matter, he was inclined to
!think that Officers of the Catholic religion in the
army were fairing contrary to law.—The Ir ifh AEI,
which ordained that they Should ferve only in the
Irilh army, is itfelf a nullity, for by the Union that
army is merged into one confolidated body, and now
called in common with the refi—" The army of the
United Kingdom." This Bill would, however, re-
move all doubt upon the cafe, and he ironed he &mild
have leave to bring it in. As to his fn.iling at the'
Honourable Gentleman's obfervations, it was quite
impoffible to avoid it, for when he talked of a dozen
Catholic Priefis creating difcord on board thin, it
naturally occurred to him that the Honourable Gen-
tleman mull fuppofe, when the boatfwain piped all
hands, that inßead of performing the difcipline of
the fhip, they were all to fall to and join in their
Matins. But, as his Honourable Friend had before
Rated, fo be now repeated it, that there was not a
word in the Bill about either Protefiant or Catholic
Clergyman.
Leave was then given, and the Bill was brought
in, read a fir ft time, and ordered for a fecoad reading
this day fennight.