Star.
London, England, 1812-06-20 00:00:00

ORDERS IN COUNCIL.

On the questicn that the order of the day fee the
call of the House he read,
Mr. BROUGHAM was anxious to say a
words on what had passed in the debate on Tuesday
last. He little thought that he should be forced
again to call their attention- to the subject of the
Orders in Council, and to hang over the heads of
Members at this period of the Session, when busi-
ness and various avocations conspired to hurry them
away, a threat of another call of the House. Im-
pre.sed with an idea that the Orders would be re-
scinded, he had consented to withdraw his motion
for he thought, and the country afterwards th
from the many explanations required and *g.ven by
the Noble Lord, that the business was certainly at
an end. His hopes on this head, he repeated, wetel
shared, not only by the merchants of the City, but
by all the great manufacturing and trading disl
tricts. He had received letters from Warwickshire, I
*xpressing at the intended repeal, on the part both
of the masters and of the workmen, a degree of joy
which it would be gratifying to the House to learn. I
Haw great, then, would their disappointment be—
how great his own and that of his fiends,—to find
that no conciliation is to' be adopted towards Arne-1
rica,—that the Orders are not to be given up, or at I
least are to be scs given up that no tittle of advan- I
tage can accrue from their' temporary and coodi-
fional repeal. There was a marked discrepancy be-
tween the statement of the Noble Lord, as made the
other evening, and the declaration of his Noble Col-
leagues last night. The Noble Lord had averred, '
that the suspension would take place immediately :
his Noble Colleagues, on the contrary, at:run:Rd that,

. ,
this desirable event would not happen for six weeper
I or till some pending negotiation was at an end. The
Noble Lord was understood to say, the repeal was
1 not to be for a limitei time : the other avowal was,
that it was to be only for a limited time, and that
the Orders would revive of themaelves, unless some
different policy should be adopted on the part of
France, or unless America herself should consent to
I take pan with England against the common enemy.
Was this a revocation of the Orders in Counci ?
(Hear, hear.) Were the manufacturers and trades sof
the country to be thus fooled, or was the House of
Commons to be thus fooled ? (Hear, heir.) All the
promises, all the undertakings, of the other evening, ,
turned out now to be mere mockery and delusion.
(Hear.) Another circumstance had come out, and
`more, no doubt, would be unravelled every 24,
helm, that all American vessels railing to arty part
of the Continent were to be brought into our ports,
not, indeed, for the purposes of adjudication, but
merely for detention, fill the math of certain ne.
gociations could be ascertained. Was this done in
the liberal spirit of conciliation, or rather was it not
a stingy, shtolling, prevaricating policy, tending al-
together more to debase the honour and dignity of
the country, than the victories of its armies helped to
glorify it ? The manufacturers were now waiting in
breathless anxiety for the appearance of the promised
act of Government : and if before Wednesday next
there should not be a satisfactory document in the
Gazette, he must beg again to submit a proposition
to the House on the Orders in Council. He knew
the Ministers would then give them up; they had
:hewn, indeed, that they wortli give up any thing ex-
cept their places. (Hear, hear, and
,Tentral laugh).
Since they had been replaced in office, they had per-
1,
formed no acts, except acts of abandonment. In
the first place, they abandoned Col. M'Malion's
affair : then they abandoned the Barracks at Ma-
rylabonne ; an act particularly agreeable to an RA.
Friend sitting near him (Mr. -Ward) : then the
barracks at Liverpool and Bristol, a motion equally
pleasing to another Honourable Frieod (we believe
General Tarleton) ; they then pretended to abandon
the Orders in Couac'l. They had, in short, hitherto
acted in such a manner, and so precisely in the spirit
recommended by his Hln. Frier is, that with the ex-
ception of sitting on different sides of the House, the
country was governed as if his (Mr. Brougham's) '
friends were in office, and the Gentlemen opposite
were breathing ( what to them must be the greatest
of conceivable miseries) the dark and gloomy at •
mosphere of opposition. ( Hear, hear.) But, to the
point :if the Government of the Country, yielding
to the agonies and distresses of the manufacturers, '
did intend to rescue them from starvation, let it not,
in Gon's name,—let it not, in the name of common
consistency,—act in a manner that would degrade
the dignity of the nation. To slam that his observa-
tions had a good foundation, he would detail to them
what he knew, and what he had learnt from others.
i Yesterday, shipments had been ordered to a great
! amount—one merchant in particular, who was in the
habit of transporting sometimes a million, sometimes
two millions of goods annually to America, had
stated, that he was prepared to transport a million
immediately. This order alone would be sufficient
' to employ for six months one hundred thousand men.
To-day, on the contrary, not a shipment was made :
and although many believed, that the Orders were at
any rate to be suspended, aad that it was impossible
that the repeal could be allowed to rest on such con-
dition as had been mentioned, ye' he( Mr. Brougltam)
had heard from a merchant, who hid this day a com-
munication with the Noble Lord, that the Orders
were not to be repealed, except conditionally. If so,
they would never be t ep:•.ded : declaration After declara-
tion might be issued, but the American markets would
never be open, if for that event we waited till Bona-
parte adopts such measures as shall prevent our ma.
nufacturers from starving; that personage would ra-
ther France should starve than have recourse to such
measures ; and thus the negociator-ship would be the
only ship which was likely to go from this country
to America. Yet this was the policy to be pursued
by this country ; and because France was too power.
ful to be vulnerable from us, America was called
upon, on account of her weakness, to stand on our
side, and thus expose herself to ruin. If the Gen-
tlemen opposite were really in earnest to save their
country, he hoped it would be not by the adoption
of such policy. In farther corroboration of his state-
ments, he would read a slip containing some written
questions, which he sent to the underwriters at '
Lloyd's, and the answers. He had enquired at what
rate an insuraece could be effected from this country
to America, for a voyage of twelve months, if a re-
peal was to happen under the condition so often men-
i tioned ? The answer was, with one exception, that
nine of them would underwrite such a policy ; at
any rate, that the premium would lie ar 25 guineas
per cent. ; while on the supposition of an uncondi-
' clonal certain repeal, the rate would be only three
guineas per cent. 'The Hon. Memuer then observed
that s.me adhered to the Orders in Council in prin-
ciple, andione Honourable and Learned Gentleman t
nearly related to them would sooner perish than gave
them up. Another party objected to them as strongly.
Each of these parties was consistent ; not so the
Noble Lord, he gave them up in principle, while he
clung to their practice ; and by this half measure
was guilty of an absurdity which he begged him, for
the honour and the advantage of the country, to
abandon.

Tile Order of the Day was thee read.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, unless some satisfactory
explanation should take place, he should move that
there be a call of the House on Thursday next.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, k would be to
abuse the patience of the House to follow. the Host.
and Learned Gentleman through the ground over
which he had tr.ivelled. One tact, however, he had
stated, which he was bound to notice. The Ministry
it seems, had, by their acts, obtained the approbation

i

I

of the Learned Gentleman. They had, he (Lord
Cactlereagh) was happy to say, the confidence of
their Prince, of their country (a I.tigh from the ON"'
eition), and now, it appeared, of the Hon. Gentlemen
opposite themselves. He felt no personal gratitude
to the Honourable Gentlemn lir withdrawing his
motion on Tuesday eveninf ; he could assure him,
that unless he (Lord Cu! eteagh) had thought it
an unworthy triumph, he should have pressed a divi.
sion. (Hear, hear, anti a laugh.)—The misconceptions
of the Hon. Gentleman in his present statement were
such as could hardly be conceived to come from so
clear a head ; but he would prefer to meet the Hon.
Gentleman in argument r‘n di cuments rather than
on misrepresented circumstances, some of which
were picked up from perverted ciinveisations preten-
ded to be holden with himself.—( Hear, hear.)—lf
persons to ould make reports of such conversations,
and Membeis founded their statements upon them,
all confidence u'is at an end. It would be better for
Ministers to decline all communication with indivi-
duals. He trusted that the Acts of Government
would be alloned to speak for themselves ; and after
their appearance, he would be happy to meet the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman in argument upon
them. •

Mr.PONSONBY asked when the documents would
be produced ?
Lord cAsTLEREAGH said, that what was not
in existence could not be produced. The documents
would appear on Saturday or Tuesday.
Mr. PONSONBY.—., The Noble Lord forms,
perhaps, a vet y just estimate of my humble abilities
.-.-but I can assure him it was not my intention to
call for the production of that which has no existence."
General GASCOYNE wished to know, what was
the intention a f Government, as the exports and im-
ports %vete in suspence, waiting for the determination.
Lord CAST LEREAGH thought it was better
that men in trade i.hould look to the public acts of
Government, than that they should rely on any loose
conversation in that House.

Mr. ROSE said, he merely wished to state, in re.
ference to that part of the Learned Gentleman's
speech which described the hopes of the London mer-
mints on the repeal, that he never in his life recol-
lected such a gloom in the City.
Mi.. BROUGHAM said that was owing to the
terms of the loan.

Mr. ROSE said, none but the American merchants
rej, iced at the rei cal.
ttlr. EROUG HAM rose, but sat down again im-
meL trom cries ol—.• Spoke, spoke."
B. RING urged the txtrente importance of
decision, Is IlLn liundieds of houiands were interested
in th•• Jesuit ; and insisted, at br•tat length, that the
crummy would not he benefited by any half measure.
Mr. WIi,BERFORCE suet, that concession
shtuld be nude in such a liberal and sincere manner
as srouid tend perfectly to exculpate this country,
whatever line i 1 conduct might be pursued by Ame-
rica.

Mr. CANNING said, there was great anxiety and
pleat uncertainty pievaiiing on this important sub-
ject ; and it was advisable that some decisive mea.
sole should he adopted. Again, if the Government
were.cmittnt to give up any thing in principle, it
shostlo be so dime as to produce most advantage.—
It was de,irable that the act of our Government
shiitild be so ciear, that the conduct of the President
of the United Statts might be clearly and unequivo-
cally toideistoi d, in the course which he should adopt
in pursuance of that act.
The quesion for the Call next Thursday war then
put, and carried wiaiiitila division.
M. SliElilDAN'S EXPLANATION.
- Mr. }. Fl I Z(JLRALD lose to imorm the House
that he had been empoweied by a Noble Earl (Yar-
thouth) to express his sincere 'egret that he was pre-
cluded by a severe indisposition, which tonfined him
{to his bed, ft om attending his duty in his place that
day. He (Lord Yarmouth) ccutd have wished to
have been present, from the nature of tLe discussion,
to answer any questions which might have been put
to him, and he did express a hope that the question
might be deterred, but the Right lion. Gentleman
seeming alai( us to persevere', he ciccreeti it cue to
his own honour, and due to the House, to express the
regret he telt at being abst nt, an absence which no-
thing but inevitable necessity cculd have caused.
Mr. SHERIDAN.—" 1 can vouch, Sir, for the
truth of all which the Hon. Gentleman has stated ;
I called upon the Noble Lord in my way down to
the House, and I saw, with regret, that it was im-
possible he could be present. I did also state to him,
that as I considered that part of the question which
related to our conversation, as a mere mareinal
thing, nothing but an episLde, in respect to %%bat I
was most anxious to lay heore the House, I would
abstain from it altogetlicr.—;and having said thus
much, I shall proceed to explain my motives for the
motif n which 1 intend to make. . .. _

Sir, passing by with a single word, this fact, that
whatever misapprehension may have arisen in the
public mind upon my conduct, there has been none
between me and the Noble Lord, 1 shall hasten to
the assertion of my Right Hon. Friend, that I ut-
terly disbelieved any such resignation as that of the
Household was in contemplation; and that in addi-
tion, as a clencher, I offered to make a bet with him.
[Here Mr. Tierney said no, it was not with him.]
Well then, that I offered to make a bet with some-
body, or with any body—(a laugh)—of five hundred
guineas upon the subject. Now, Sir, there is some-
thing unlikely upon the face of this story, of this
offer of mine to bet with him, with every body, or
with any body; I, who never bet with any body, ror
ever play for a single guinea. I wish he had said
that I offered to stake the money, and then I am
sure nobody would have -believed it—(Loud laughter
from' all rider.) However, I'll not cavil about it—
I'll give him this £5OO bet, that is, I'll not give
him the money,but give him the bet—(lataghier.)
'At the sane time, if every loose word that is uttered
Itt the mornent—”as for example—a friend says to
me, the Household are going to resign—l reply, I'll
bet you five hundred guineas they do not—if every
casual expression like this is to be brought down to
the House, and made a subject of grave accusation
(Hear, hear), .1 protest I shall take care how I an-
swer to a friend who meets me in St. James's-street,
and says, How do you do ?—(laugh)—l'll take three
minutes to consider of my reply ; and even 'then,
shall be shy of answering, unless a witness is by who
• to down w ds a of they fail

from my Ilps-e-(laugliter.) However, I will concede look for strength Or public confidence in such an
to t.im the fact, that I did say, I'll bet you 500 Administration. He did not like coalitions between
pounds the Household will nor resign—five shillings men of conflicting opinions. Looking to a man whom
would have been more likely—(a laugh)—but why he loved more than he bad ever loved, or ever could
did I say it ? My Right Honourable Friend said to love any other political charaCter—one of the greatest
me, I hear the Household are going to resign ; I re- and best men whom this country had ever seen, and
plied, I did not believe it. And why did 1 not be- whose loss the country had nhow so much cause to Be-
lieve it, I had never heard a syllable about the inter- plore—he meant Mr. Fox ; he could not hut regret
tints of the Household, till the Noble Lord himself more than any other act o that Hon. Gentleman's
told it to me—and when my Right Honourable life, his coalition with Lord North, believing, as he
Friend spoke to me, I knew that resignation was con- did, that the mind of the country had never recovered
tingent upon a circumstance which, at the moment from that shock, as far as his Right Hon. Friend
of the bet, was more remote from taking place than was concerned. He was of opinion, that another
ever. Is that an intelligible answer ? But now, having coalition, which it was attempted to bring about be-
answered him, let me ask a question in my turn, of tween the same Right Hon. Gentleman and another
the Right Honourable Gentleman ? Did I riot ex- of his political opponents (Mr. Pitt), would also have
press my surprise to him, that any thing could have done much mischief; and impressed with this idea,
arisen to•interrupt the Negociations that were then he had done all in his power to support the Noble
taking place?—And the answer of my R ight Hon. Lord- (Sidmouth) against their united attacks. He
Friend was, that the Noble Lords required that Lad had done so, from hnding in all the measures and
Moira should obtain from the Prince Regent full conduct of that Noble Lord, and from what he had
power to consult with them individually in the for- uniformly observed in him, that he was impressed
mation of a new Administration. Earl Moira wrote with a conviction of doing right.—(A laugh.)—He
to the Noble Lords a Setter, dated June 3, in which was sorry to see what he had said as to this Noble
he offered a renewal of the Negocations, and on the Lord received with a sneer. The Noble Lerd alluded
evening of that day, I had the honour of meeting to had done more to re-establish the finances—more
my Right Honourable Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) at to increase the force of the country—and more to
the Duke of Bedford's. He said to me, we hear, revivify the Constitution, then in a most exhausted
Sheridan, that you are of opinion the Negociatioa state, than any Minister we had had for many years.
can be renewed between Earl Moira and Lords Grey (A laugh ).—He should like to hear what he stated
and Grenville :—We do not think so. I answered, disproved rather than answered by a sneer. In speak-
perhaps the difference of opinion arises from Earl ing of the formation of the Administration, he could
Moira's letter being inaccurately worded ; but that not help remarking, that the House of Commons on
there was one thing which I knew, and which they one day, by a majority of two, found that the then
could not dispute with me, and that was the sincere
i.Administration was not fit, and then, on a subsequent
intention of Lord Moira to renew the Negociations. day, declared their competency by a majority of 125;
For next day but one after that, Lord Moira wrote yet these Ministers had, during the interval, acquired
a minute in the presence of the Duke of Ledford, no new strength. To what then could he attribute
which he sent to Lords Grey and Grenville, and in this change of sentiment, if it was not owing to use
the evening when I met the Duke of Bedford, he House and•the Country being against the conduct of
told me, I was right in my assertion, as to the sincere those with whom the negociation had been going on ?'
intention of Lord Moira to renew the Negociations. He thought the House might have been satisfied
On the sth. I certainly did communicate to Lord with one vote on such a, subject. Even one inter-
Moira what it was that Lords Grey and Grenville ference in a question of that kind was a strong mea-
expected, which the Noble Earl thought conclusive, sure. There was but a thin partition between neg.'.
and broke off the business. tieing and nominating in such cases as those, and he
64 I sincerely regretted this termination of the af- thought that the second attempt had, too, the appear-
fair, and immediately sent an express into the cowl- ance of the wish to usurp the power of nominating to
try to my Honourable Friend on my right (Mr. the Prince Regent the individual persons who should
Whitbread.) When he came to town, I commu- be his Ministers. • He felt regret that the negociation
nicated upon the subject with my Lord Erskine, for the formation cf an efficient Administration, corn-,
steting that I did not think the answer of the Noble prehending the two Noble Lords alluded to, had.
Lords conclusive, as to the breaking off the Negoci. tailed; but when it had so failed, he did wish that an
ation altogether. We met at Lord Erskine's : Lord attempt l• ad been made to form an Administration with-
Erskine put the question to my Hon. Friend, it he out them,andstillwithout resorting to the former men.
thought the Negociation was conclusively broken off This, he thought, might have been done by bringing
by the answer of the Noble Li ids ? He replied he forward something fresh and new ; and he could not
did not—and that instant die Noble Earl wrote to the but think that it was a libel on the public ; that it
-Prince Regent to obsein the power iequisrd by the was lowering the country ; to hold that there was
Noble Lords. I n.ust add, that I found, with the nothing but those two parties from which an Admi.
deepest regret, next day, that the negociation had nistration could be formed. He regretted that no ne-
been once more broken off upon that sine qua non, the gociation of this kind could be carried on without this
dismissal of the Household. I did not conceive it two parties thinking that they were set against each
possible, when they did meet, but that the Negocia. other ; and that the communications which passed
Lion would have been brought to a successt el issue, and on the subject must all be submitted to the public.—
the first I heard of its failure was on Mcnsley, the Bth Such publications were to the disadvantage of this
ofJune, when a friend asking me what was to be done country, and to the encouragement of the enemy.—
in the House ? I replied, nothing, but moving for a He wished an embargo could be laid upon them, so
new wi it in the place of Mr. Canning, and he told me that they might not get abroad, and tl:at it might not
that Lord Liverpool was app intcd Prime Minister. appear, at a period when we ought to be united
Mee, Sir, I wish to offer a few words upon what I against the enemy, that we were so =pie:yeti. He
said the other night, that it my advice had been follow- concluded by moving an humble Address to the
ed, not one of the Right Honourable and Honourable Prince Regent, praying that he would be pleased to
Gentlemen oppo ire, would he sitting in their places. order that there be laid bethre the House, such official
i
I hope they did not consic!er that as springing from documents as had been laid before his Royal High.
any personal aeimosity towards them: I protest to ness relative to the formation ef a new Administra-
Gen, it was no such thing, for I hive a personal re- Lion in consequence of the Address of the Housed as
seect and esteem for them all—neither was 1 influ- tar as his Royal Highness was of opinion they might
erred by the vote of this House, by which they had, with propriety be laid before Parliament.
as it were, been cashiered. My objection to them was, Lord It. SEYMOU It stated, that not only were
that they were avowedly arrayed and embodied his Noble relatives and himself determined to have
against a principle of concession to the Catholics of resigned the r situations in the Household, but they
Leland, %%hick I think, and must always think, es. took the greatest pains to publish their determination.
siestial to the safety of this Empire—el/car, hear* He assured the House he might greatly strengthen
this &elm etion it he were to appeal to Gentlemen to
I will never give my vote to any administration that
whom this determination him been communicated.
oppoStS the question of Catholic emancipation ; I
wail not console to receive a furlough upon that par. He entered his protest against quoting Members of
t
ticuler question, even demists a Ministry were carry-
hat House for opinions or expressions loosely.gieen
them in conversation out of it. It was not by such
ing every other that I wished. 1 could wish to see by
negociation emeans as these that Gentlemen were likely to improve
rtercd upon with fairness and sincerity
,
tee aids the Catholics, with concessions on both sides, either the debates in that House, or private conver-
so as to make it popular in this country, and that no I sation. Nu man felt greater pleasure than lie did in
,
alarm may be created. lam not one of those who the speeches of the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
'Tierney), but that pleasure must be greatly &mi.
would grant absolute unconditional concessions to
the Catholics; let proper guards and securities be pro. , niched it the subject was to be the conversation of two
b
sided, end let negociation be comm.-need with them brothers, of whom he was one, as to the conduct of
upon a basis of sincerity ; but my doubt is, that this their third brother. It the Right Hon. Gentleman
I had had such information as that with which he had
negotiation cannot be carried on by those, who in their
hearts are hostile to the cause. Proposels from such favoured the House, communicated to him by him
will never be adequately received by the Catliclics ; ( third R. Seymour) person fly, lie was certain he
but if they proceed from persons, whose intentions
would not have thought it fit that he should make it
they knew to be fair and open, without any trick or ',a subject of discussion in the House ; and hearing it,
freed, then we should see them met with correspond. as he did, at second hand, he thought the Right Ho-
ing fah ness and integrity. • I nourable Gentleman might have doubted the troth ofccMr.Sheridan assured the Right Hon. Gentle- ! it. In establishing his main point, however the Right
men opposite, that in using the expression alluded to, Hon. Gentleman had forgotten what was due to
he had meant no disrespect or incivility to them. He him (Lord R. Seymour) and his brother.
addressed himself more particularly to the Noble Mr. TIERNEY said he was rather in an un-
Lord (Castlereagh), and trusted that lie wculd agree pleasant situation, as he felt an impression had been
with him, that the sooner the claims of the Irish Ca. made on the mind of the Noble Lord, that someteing
tholics could now be granted the better. When it .had fallen from him in a former debate, which
was seen that Ministers were giving up other things was beyond the usual line of courtesy observed in
to which they were as much pledged, as they had that House. He assuree the Noble Lord, that in
ever been to resistan:e to the Catholic claims—that what he had said, or might say on the subject
they had conceded-the point relative to the Barracks alluded to, he was actuated by no personal dis-
-that they had agreed to a suspension of the Orders respect to the Noble Lord, or to the Noble Marquis.
in Council—whim they were seen to have yielded in Neither was he aware that he ha, exceeded in any
these respects, he hoped they would not make the measure the usual courtesy of the House.. He did
Catholic question the only exception, but would give not volunteer the statements -he had made ; they
it up also. If the Noble Lord and his Colleagues were forced from him. A Noble Lord not now
were content to do all the paltry and minute business present ( Yarmouth) made a speech which had, or
of office, and to adopt all the suggestions of those seemed to have, a great effect on the House, from
who were generally described as their opponents, he the triumphant cry with which it was received—
confessed that he, for one, could not figure a more and by which it seemed to be imagined that the I
complete coalition. It was impossible that his Right failure in the late overtures was attributable to Lords,
Honourable Friends on the side of the House on Grey and Grenville, who had shewn a disposition to
which he sat could object to such a mode of pro. extort humiliating concessions froth the Prince Re-
ceedieg ; and the country must surely, at length: con- gent. The speech of the Noble Lord went boldly
fess, that they had got a most broad-bottomed Admi- to assert, that it WAS and must have been known ,
nistration. When Gentlemen talked of a strong and' that the Chamberlain and Deputy Chamberlain, &c.
vigorous Administration, he conceived that they must were willing to resign, but that the two Noble Lords,
mean an Administration composed of men who drew not contented with this,' insisted on their removal ; ;
together, and concurred in great leading principles ; and that this intention on the part of the Members ofl'
but wleen an Administration was composed of per, the Houshold had beta communicated to his Ritelet
sons who entertained contradictory opioions, how- Honourable Frieuel near him (Mr. Sheridan). Bang
- - • _ , 10•_i _••• • • /

. _

titularly to one of them) from his earliest childhono
the observations he had then made were forces' foil
him, and he having been brought in contact aii.h
Right Honourable Friend, and having understnoe
from him that such was not the impro,sioa 0,04
wind, this naturally led him to what had beta
statements of the two brothers ; one of wiom, it rra,
stated, had, on ,the Thursday, distinctly said that
they were to resign ; and the other directly therein's*.
—la stating these circumstances to the kits Ise, it
hoped be had thrown out ts) imputation on eitheref
the two brothers—nor had he been guilty of azy
breach of private confidence. He then came to site
question he had put to his Right Hon. Friend, r 2
Friday, the sth of this month, whe-her he had art
information on this subject, or did believe the faet4
their intention to resign ? His answer was—ar,4
though he had, as usual, succeeded in treating d 4.11
subject with pleasantry, he had not been able to
gainsay a word of it—that he would bet 500guineli
that no such thing was in contemplation. if his
Right Honourable Friend would not admit that dts
was so, then he (Mr. Tierney) must concede himself
to have been in error, but still must vindicate him.
self against the charge of betraying private friend.
ship. His Right Honourable Friend must have
known, that to have betted 500 guineas with him
(Mr. Tierney) would have been alasurd ; and of
course the wen ds wiere used only in common parlance;
but he must still say he had fairly quoted the wards
of his Right Honourable Frieni, and if they gave
offence to any one he was sorry for it. After cone.
dera.tion, he thought he had found nut a way of rr,
conciling both stories, but he did not think it neon.
nary to trouble the House with doing so. His Rift
Hon. Friend might not think that it was their intender
to resign.—( Mr. Sheridan here distented.)— rim It
w is mistaken, and had to apologise fur having iniskd
the House. He wished, however, tint being thrust,
rto learn from his Right Hun: Friend what he dd

mean, because the wager was admitted ? (gar, har.)
He hoped he had now set him,clf right with the-Noble
Lord, and that he had done nothing unbecoming*
Gentleman. All he wished was to st.t the two Noble

Lords (Grey and Grenville) free from the daunt
Much had been raised against them, and N hare it

establit.hed and admittell that they never had ay
communication made to them, that any such resit
nations as these in question were in contemplitice, •
He now came to the qu...btichis put to him by his
Right Honour.ible hrießi. It: (Mr. l'i:rner) did
not ask for any such authority twin Earl tiiiiralo

Lords Grey and Grenville, as that winch his Right.
Honourable Friend's question implied. His Right
Honourable Friend asked him, what would satisfy
Lords Grey and Grenville ? to whi,:ll his answer V7lsl

but not from authority, that ma. ters should be coa•
.tucted in the old established way, namely, by the

Crown giving authority to some one person to go to
the tormati:tn of a new AdminisLration—and in illus.

tration of his meaning, inst.:raced the authority given
by his Majesty, about eight years ago, to Mr. Pitt.
He contended, that the removal from the Offices of
the Household was not a preliminary stipulation by
the two Noble Lords ( Grey and Grenville) with Lord
Moira—but a preliminary question put by them to that
Noble Lord, which having been answered in the nega•
tive, there was then an end of the matter, and thew.
gotiation broke off. If Earl Moira had said he had an,
thorLy to that effect, then the negotiation w uld have
gone on, and neither they nor his Royal Highnus
would have known that any such thing had passed. As
to the contents of the paper, to which his Right Rm.
Friend objected, be (Mr. Tierney) knew nothing d
them. On the former day on which his Right Ha
nourable Friend brought forward the present ques.
tion, he professed himself to be a friend to tiie liberty,
or even the licence of the press ; and k appeared that
he made only one objection to this rule, and that vast
so far as it extended to himself. His Right Honour.
able Friend then gave them a great deal of theCathobe
question. Then he expressed his dislike at minims,
though he seemed to be more than usuaily fond d
them, when he proposed a coalition between Gentle.
men on the side of the House on which he sad, ea 4
Gentlemen on tile opposite side of the Mous!. Be
then proceeded to pass an eulogium on Lord Sid.
mou•li, and boasted of the support he had given Wthat Noble Lord's Administration. He (Mr. rif .
ney) did not recollect of his Right Honourable Friend
ever giving a vote in support of that Administratiews
though he recollected well that he willingly sneered
at them ; and particularly that he once applied a
translation of an Epigram t.f Martial to the Noble
Lord.—(4 laugh)—He could conceive no other per'
Lose for which his Right Honourable Friend. bad
brought fora and the present motion, except that it if.
forded him an opportunity of expressing his disappro-
bation of the conduct of the two Noble Lords, Grey
and Grenville, who, however, he (Mr. Tierney) coo.
tended could have acted no other way than they had
done. As it was, the Gentlemen opposite were coo-
tinued in the Administration for want of betters
and, as had been observed to him the other night II
one c f their friends, they might say, I think we sbsl
now live happily and contentedly together. Ya
carry all the questions ; we keep all the places.
Mr. SHERIDAN explained.
Mr. PONSONBY declared, if the letter alluded
to by his Right Hon. Friend as letter by wild'
Earl Moira wished to renew the nisociation, wag
really Meant for that purpose, the words of the kiwi
did not express that meaning, though indeed the wa•
4gociation was afterwards renewed, He hear*
concurred in the propriety of the line of coorls
adopted by Lords Grey and Grenville. If they boa
agreed to come into office on the terms proposed'
for one, would not have consented to hold AO gin'tk
nor ander them.
Mr. MARTIN (of Galway) said, the Cads&
of Ireland would as soon accept of emancipation Iron;
the present as from any other Administration, ,
Mr. WHITBREAD confirmed the,. staseehtt ar
Mr. Sheridan, as to the facts to which be was sofa
to have been privy ; and declared that the ;reel
anxiety had been shewn by his Right Hon. fry
througk the whole of the negociation, as tar al R.ur
had an opportunity of observinge that Lords (k 4
and Grenville should form part of the Admingstrm
tion. He (Mr, Whitbread) went out of town tief°l,l
thne
hisciationopwinasiopn on utantheensdutbo.ject Hofe
ihtsadrll7
expressed
but did not think it necessary to press Oa; wrm"
ors. the House.
• Mr. SHERIDAN in reply expreaawd•
o •

rry) should be able to ascribe the present motion to
tothing else but a desire to express disapprobation of
the conduct of Lords Grey and Grenville. Did his
Right Honourable Friend think so lightly of his own
character as to suppose that he(Mr.sheridan) could
bold his so cheap as not to vindicate it against the
aspersions of a Publication under the influence and
controul of those with whom he had been accustom-
ed to act; when so far from meriting the charges
thrown out against him, he had used every exertion
in his power to have the two Noble Lords alluded to
included in an Administration which should present
a firm and united front against the arch enemy of
the country.

Mr. TIERNEY explained, when
Mr. SHERIDAN observed, that he did not be-
fieve the tact of the'resignation of the Officers of the
Household, because the contingency on which alone
It was understood their resignation would be neces-
sary was then more distant than it had been.
Mr. TIE RNEY--" Then my Right Hon. Friend
admits he did say, that there was no cogccption of
their resigning."
Lord CAST LE REA GH hoped the motion would
not be pressed, as it was unbecoming that such dis-
cussions should receive the approbation of Parliament.
Mr. SHERIDAN had no intention of pressing the
motion, which conveyed the strongest censure on the
practice, by calling; for official documents on the sub-
ject, of which there could be none.
Sir FRANCIS BLTRDETT said, he could net
omit that opportunity of expressing the high satis-
faction he felt on the conduct of the Prince Regent.
(Hear, hear ) It was not his intention to express any
opinion upon the conduct of those who were parties
to the late hegociation ; but his sincerest belief was,
that no change of men, but a change of manners,
could give satisfaction to the country. Were he at
present to propose any thing, it would be a motion
for an Address to the Prince Regent, expressive of
the sense the He use must entertain of the conduct
of his Royal Highness on the late trying occasion.
Mr. HUTCHINSON thought the wishes and ex-
pectations, and still more, the wants of the country,
had not been attended to in the formation of the pre-
sent Administration. He should not say in what
quarter the blame Liy—but if he had only one day to
live, lie should say, that lie was certain there had
been bad faith in the negociation somewhere; and he
had no hesitation in saying, that he believed in his
conscience that Lords trey and Grenville had not
been fairly dealt by.
The motion was then negatived.

ADNI(RALTY IiF.GIsTRAR-OFFICE BILL.
Mr. HENRY MARTIN rose to bring in his
promised Bill for the purpose of regulating the Of-
fice of Registrar of the High Court of Admiralty.
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, in a
speech of considerable length and ability, stated the
grounds on which he rested the introduction of this
Bill, and recommended it to the adoption of the
House. The professed object of it was to secure to
the suitors in the Courts of Admiralty that property
Which, on then behalf, was eon usted to the custody
of the Registrai. A Bill of a very similar charac-
ter had passed int, a Law, in the reign of Geo. 1. to
tegulate the funds in the Court of Chancery. It was
jn ihe recollection of the House, that he had recently
submitted various motions, the end of which had been
to lay before the H use all possible information as
to the nature of the office in question, and the eme-
luments, of whatever kind, accruing to the present
hslder—a N&.ble Lord, a Mt mber of the other
House. The production of some of these documents
had been assented, while others had been refused.
From what was actually before the House, it
appeared that the fees payable to Lord Arden
amount to twelve thousand pounds per 'annum,
end that it sum of £200,0(0), belonging to suitors,
vas the average sum in his hands, which he employed
to his own private advantage, and from which it also
appeared that he had been it the practice of deriving
no less a sum than X7OOO per annum. In addition
to all this he bad to state what had not been allowed
to be authentic thy laid before them, that there was a
sum vested in Exchequer bills producing an interest
of £44,000, the distributiop and destination of which
be had not been able to ascertain. The Honourable
Gentleman then entered into a minute detail of the
provisions of his Bill, and concluded by moving that
it be read a first time.
Sit W. SCOTT objected to the principle of the
Bill as unnecessary, no grounds having been laid on
any examples of fraud in the adminis.ration of the
property, which it was the pretended purpose of the
Bill to secure. The persons referred to in the cha-
racter of sureties were chiefly foreigners, who might
be injured by having, their property vested in the
fonds and subjected to all their fluctuations. With
respect to the evaded provisions of the Bill he could
see no other result likely to be produced except that
of inc, nvenience to the Court. He should move, there-
fore, as ,in Amendment that the Bill be read that day
six months.
- Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose to defend the
prii:ciple of the Bill, not to enter into those details
which %%fluid be better reserved for the consideration
of that.Ct.rtimittee, which he had beard no argument
frcm the Right Hon. and Lamed Gentleman, to in-
duce him to think that it was nut their solemn duty
to go into. It was mast important that a just deci-
skin should be had on the question, whether a Public
Officer, appointed to guard the property of Suitors in
a Ci urt of Justice, was justified in applying that pro-
Perty to his own private advantage (hear, hear).—
Ile
had Ali !old indeed that these Suitors were fo-
reigners, but he considered this as only forming an
additional argument, an argument founded on the
&pity and character of the country, for giving to
the property of those individuals all the protection
slid seem ity which it was in their power to bestow
(ivi;rt hear). In his judgment it certainly was an
Illegal use of the money, and in his opinion a suit
Might be maintained for the recovery of all the pro-
fits derived from that use. Sir Samuel Romilly
quoted a decision in Chancery, on a Bill filed by Lord
lonsdale against a person who held a lucrative office,
that of Receiver at the harbour of Whitehaven, in
which it had been expresslLlaid. down, that such use
of monies was contrary to 17tw. He then re/erred to
the case of Lord Macclesfield, who had been im-
peached for practices not very dissimilar ; and asked
the House if they would now sanction what they had
once declared to be a high crime and misdemeanor ?
The SOLICITOR GENERAL contended. that
~
' question of illegality ought to be decided in a

Court of Laws as his Honourable and .Learned
Friend had admitted it might be, when he gave it as
his opinion, that a suit might be maintained for the
recovety of the interest out of the hands of the officers
of the Admiralty Court. Supposing it necessary,
however, for the House to. decide the question, this
Bill did not effect that object. Upon this point too
he well remembered that a question had been put to
the Twelve Judges—the case of Lord Melville—
whether the making use of public money was even,
after an Act passed regulating the appropriation of
that money, was or was not a high crime and misde-
meanour ? who all answered unanimously in the ne-
gative. He conceived the Bill to be perfectly unne-
cessary.

Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY-explained that he had
not sa;d the making use of money in the way descri-
bed, v, as a criminal offence, but merely that it was
illegal, and that a civil suit might be maintained for
the recrwPry of all the profits derived therefrom.

Mr. WHII'BREAI) maintained that no greater
difficulty could exist in sending money to, and draw-
ing it from the Bank, than in depositing it in any
other place. He _reminded the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Plumer) that if Lord Melville had been
proceeded against for restitution, by a civil process—
no defence could have availed, but that this proceed-
ing merged in the criminal prosecution.
Sir JOHN NICHOL opposed the Bill.
Mr. WILBERFORCE observed, that in a return
made a few years ago by the Registrar of the Admi-
ralty of the profits of his office, nothing was stated
as arising from the interests of the property of
suitors, which looked like an admission that he did not
consider this a source of legal profit. He moved the
adjournment of this debate to this day se'nnight.
Mr. MARTIN said, the object of the Bill was to
assimilate the practicelll the Court of Admiralty as
much as possible to that of the Court of Chancery.
The Bill was copied from another brought in in 1810,
by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, which
never passed, ani what was singular enough, it
seemed then quite unexceptionable in principle to the
three Learned Gentlemen wbo had expressed them-
selves so differently to night—(Hear, he•ar).
Lord COCHRANE supported the Bill, and com-
plained of the abuses in the Admiralty Courts.
After which the House divided—First on the ques-
tion that the debate be adjourned to this day se'nnight
—For 28—. Against 64—Majority 36. '
And afterwards, on the question, that the words
proposed to be left out, stand part of the Bill—For
the question 65—Against it 27—Majority 38. The
Bill was accordingly lost.
The Riot Bill went through a Committee. The Report was
received and ordered to be taken into further consideration on
Tuesday next.
Mr W. POLE, in a Committee of the whole House, moved
several Resolutions for the Regula'ion of the Irish Stamp Duties.
The Report was ordered to be received to-morrow (this day.)
The House adjourned at past One o'Cluck.