Star.
London, England, 1807-04-16 00:00:00

-their firmnefs, vigour, and decifion in the condo& of
the war, the general reaitude of their coadu& in
every other branch of Adminiftration, he found that
they were entitled to his unqualified approbation.—
They had, it is true, been but a fhort time in power,
but it was long enough to deferve the thanks and
gratitude of the nation. They had governed long
enough for their own glory, but, unfortunately, not
long enough to promote and confirm the advantages
of their country. They continued in power,
" Sada fibi, fed non patriz."
Confidering the principle upon which the prefent Mi.
niters came in, it was impoffible he could give them
his lupport. For what was that principle ? Moft cer-
tainly, it was either upon an exprefs or implied pledge
not to fir a great Conflitutional queftion. If they
did not come in under a written pledge, affuredly ,
they did under a virtual pledge, not to advife his Ma.
jetty upon the Catholic quettion. Accepting office
upon there teims, what confidence could they hope
people of Ireland ? It was well known that
from
topes were held out to the Catholics of Ireland pre.
vious to the Union, that whenever that great meafure
'Mould be effected, their claims would be heard and
liikurred with temper here. Were it not for tittle
,promifes, the Union would never have been carried.
In order to procure the concurrence of the Catholics,
the Bilhops were made the inftruments of influencing
the Pt iefts, and the Priefts were bribed to cajole the
people. The prefent Adminiftration brought with 1
them into power, all the odious parts of Mr. Pitt's
principles with regard to Ireland, and fuperadded the
principle of eternal exclufion to the Catholics. Ire.
land, at prefent, might be confidered as a paralized I
member of the political body. It affeaed the whole
frame; but, let it be reftored to fife and vigour, and
the cripple would throw away his crutch, and grafp
the (word in defence of his benefactor. As to con-
cellions to Catholics, he was allonifhed at the incon-
tinency which prevailed with regard to them. He
was at a lots to dilcover why principles, which were
admitted in framing the conflitution of Canada,
flould be coafidered as fubverfive of the Conflitution
in Ireland. He was happy in the opportunity of ex
prelling his approbation of the conduit of the late
Minifters, and of condemning the principles upon
which the prefent Adminiftration came into power.
The Hon. Mr, ROBINSON obferved, that the
head of the IA Adminiftration was a partner with
Mr. Pitt in the meafure of the Union, fo much re.
probated by the Hon. Gentleman who had jult
spoken. He could not afrent to the motion of his
non. Friend, becaufe it contained, in effea, an un-
qualified approbation of the whole of the conca& of
the late Miniflers. As there were many parts cf their
conduit which he could not approve, though he mutt
ndmit he was in general well inclined towards them,
he could not contifiently vote in fupport of the mo.
tion. To their military meafures he had great objec-
tions; nor was he perfectly fatitfied with their mea-
lures of finance. With rape& to the Volunteers, the
conduit of Government, as well as the language of
the late Secretary for the War Department, was
!nog refit and imprudent. Government, in faa,
feemed to have renounced all conneftion with that
body. Conflituted as it now was, it was impoffible
Government could know any thing of its Rate or
difcipline, fur in abolifhing the lnivairtg Field Offi-
cers, they had difrolved the conneCtion between them.
115 to any apprebeonoo of dAtigcr from Iceland, in
confequence of the late change in his Majefly's
Councils, he was peduaded there was no foundation
for it. He had the firongeft reafons to fuppofe that
the Indent Minifters would al upon a fyllem of con.
ciliation with regard to that country. He would al-
low that the late change was a fubjeEt of regret to
him in common with others ; but, though he e egret-
ted it, he did not confider himfelf bound on that ac-
ccunt to oppofe the prefent Minifters. He would
give his vote for the previous queflion.
The Hon. Mr. GORE, as the reprefentative of a
large and populous county, felt it necefrary to trouble
the Houfe with a few words. He would fay nothing
of the Catholic 11111, for it was not before the Houfe,
and had nothing to do with the queftion. He would
however take this opportunity of declaring that if the
Bill for the admitlion of Catholics into the army and
navy had been brought forward, he would have given
it his warmeft lupport. He could not perceive, how-
ever, that the Catholics of Ireland were under any
great obligations to the late Minifters for that Bill.
They brought it forward to prevent the difcuffion of
a more comprehenfive meafure. Had it paired, he
much doubted whether the Catholics would have felt
themfelves much obliged to them for introducing it ;
whether they would not have confidered it as a paltry
(Waterlog. One great eaufe of the turbulent fpirit
which prevailed in Ireland, was the ignorance of the
lower clafres, arifing from their total want of educa-
tion. What, he would afk, did the late Adminiftra-
lion do to remove that radical caufe of all the com-
motions which from time to time had prevailed in
that part of the empire ? He declared himfelf againft
the original motion.
Mr. ROSCOE faid, the Bill ro often alluded to had
his entire approbation. It was armature, in his opi-
nion, which would have tended, in an eminent degree,
to conciliate a great part of the empire, and to add
three or four millions of people to our national
Drength. Had it been paired into a law, he was con-
vinced it would have prevented any further claims on
the part of the Catholics. To talk of the danger of
popery at this day was abfurd. It often happened,
that we had Catholic allies fighting by our fide ; and
he wifhed to know, upon what principle of policy, or
reafon, or confiftency, we rejefled our own Catholics,
and did all we could to drive them out of our ranks,
and out of our fleets ? The late Minifters went out of
office upon Conftitutional wounds; the prefentcame
into power upon grounds quite different. When he
looked to the perfons compofing the prefent Admi-
niftration, it was impotlible he could give them his
fupport. Some of them were not known at all, and
fome of them were too well known. They had been
tried, and had been found wanting in the balance. In
the courfe of the debate, a fort of comparifon had
been made between the late and the prefent Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer. That comparifon might have
been carried much farther. The abilities of the lag
were not unknown to that Houle. The proofs he had
given of his intimate knowledge of the refources of
the Country would not be foon forgotten. His difin-
tereftednefs, while in office, would alto be recolleaed. 1
, . The prefent Chancellor of the Exchequer was not
k 1 i known out of his profeffion. He would judge of them
i - both by their attention to tibeir own interetts. One of

them went out of office as little indebted to the pub
lie as he came into it ; the other, at his very en
trance, was even grafping at a fituation of great
tru(l and profit for life. The fir( thing for which he
would arraign the prefent Adminiftration, was for
the wanton and unnecefftry introduction of his Ma-
jelly's name into that Houfe. It was they who, by
provoking a debate and a divifion on a truifm in the
Confloution, were guilty of that indecorous all. On
a former evening they were told, that if Miniflers
were left in a minority, an appeal would be made to
the country. He was one of the hit men in the
kingdom who would let himfelf againft the legiti-
maceexercife of the prerogative, upon fair and con
thtutional grounds ; but, if the Crown !lipoid exert
its prerogative for the purpofe of overpowering the
opinion of that Houle, he would call to the recol-
ledion of Minillers, that that Houle had its privilege:,
and that it was their duty to exertife them on fuch
critical and important occafions. He trolled that
they would not feparate Wore they had agreed to
lay their fentiments before the Throne.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT Paid, that he would take
the lag fpeaker but one at his word ; and he trolled,'
before he tat down, he fhould be able to convince him,
on his own principle, that he had a right to his vote.
The Hon. Gentleman had declared his difapproba-
tion of the late Miniftry, and yet it was only a month,
a little month," fince he entertained a different
opinion. One great leading objedion of the Hon.
Gentleman's was, that the late Adminiftration had
been inattentive to the condition of the lower claffes
ia Ireland. He afked what had been done with re-
fpeet to the ellablithing of a fyftem of education in
Ireland ? He would tell the Hon. Gentleman, and he
would refer him for proof of what he thould fay,
not to reports, not to'alTertion, becaufe that was a
kind of evidence with which the Hon. Gentleman was
not obliged to be informed, but to the ftatute book
Well, an authority of which he could not plead ig
norant. He would there find an At far ellablilhing
a Commillion to enquire into the management, the
mifmanagement, the gross and flagrant abufe he
fhould rather fay, of the funds which were let apart
for education in Ireland. That Commiffion was ac-
ting at prefent, in the full vigour and execution of its
duty, and would, he trolled, if it was fupported as it
thr-old be, effect all the patriotic purpofes for which it
was inflituted. The late Government did not content
itfelf with bole or impradicable theories on this im-
portant fubjeCt. No : they-began where they fhould
do. They began by promoting an enquiry—by en-
deavouring to difeover who were guilty of nufma•
naging the funds applicable to fo facred a purpofe as
the education of the people of a country. They began
by endeavouring to remedy the defeds of former
Commiffions ; of thofe Commiffinns, at the non-exe-
cution of which he would fay, the Noble Lord on an
oppofite bench connived, and Coffered them to lie as
a dead letter. When funds dellined for education
have been taken by private individuals—when they
have been a pproptiated by them, and handed down as
pant of their Oates, it was high time for an frond( go-
vernment to interpofe. Thefe he knew were dangerous
fubjeils to meddle with, but if the late Government
had continued in office, they would have meddled with
them. They would have traced out the dilapidations,
and compelled the peculators to refund. This he knew
was a heinous offence, as well in England as in Ire-
land. There were many in both countries who could
not endure the idea of refunding. The Hon. Gentle-
man had alfo afked why fome meafures had not been
taken with refped to the tithe laws. Here he mull
have recourfe to affertion, and he trufted he would
meet with credit from the Houfe, when he declared,
that a fir( objeB in the confederation of the late Mi.
nißry was the amelioration of the tythe fyftem in Ire-
land. Were they to expea any thing of this kind
from men who have fet up the cry of Church, for
the purpofe of getting into power ? Were they to
e aped it from thofe who had contributed to the de-
gradation of the Church, by uniting pariffies, and
covering half a county with a Jingle incumbent ? He
alluded to the perfon (Lord Weftmoreland) to whom
the cuftody of the Privy Seal was committed, dining
whole adminiftration in Ireland, the Church had been
more degraded than in half a century before ; when
it was committed to the care of Bifficip, who, in the
hour of danger, ordered the mitre to be blotted from
the efeutcheon on their carriages ; when men of
broken fortunes, and tainted diameters, were intro-
duced into the Church, to the exclufion of the worthy,
moral, but unproteded Curate who had toiled in
the vineyard. He called upon that Houfe to dif-1
countenance men who had fo abufed power, when in
their hands, in that country. As to the Catholic Bill,
he could not fee how the Conftitution would be at all
endangered by granting to them a 4zd part of what
they were excluded from by the liilh Ael of 1793.
He could not fee how they who procured that Aft, by
influencing the Catholics, could refill the Bill brought
in by his Noble Friend without the greateft effron-
tery. As to the UniJn, he could not agree with an
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. 'Tighe, who fpoke fo ably in
the debate, with refped to that roeafure. He was
not in Parliament at the time, but, as an humble in-'
dividoal, he gave it his warmelt fupport. He did
In, in the expedation that the concerns of that coun-
try would be ccnfidered as Imperial concerns, and
treated as fuch in the Parliament of the Empire.—
He expeded that the Catholic queftion would have
been fo confalered and difcuffed—if he had not been
thus deluded, he would have cut off his right hand
fooner than have given his rapport to the meafure of
the Union. When Ireland made a furrender of her
privileges, and greater no country ever relinquifhed
.—when the furrendered her Imperial Legiflature, the
did it upon conditions which were well underliood.
Was it right that the furrender thould be accepted,
and that the boon fhould be refufed ? Ireland was a
component part of the Empire, and if it did not do
well, this country could not do well. He would fay
no more. Let not Gentlemen flatter themfelves that
we thould be able to conquer the common enemy,
deprived of the hearts and hands of the people of that
country. They who had given the advice to his
Majefty, for he was perfuaded there were fecret ad
vifers, to difmifs his late Minifters, affumed no com
mon degree of refponfibility. The prefent Minifters,
he would contend, had been guilty of the unconflit u-
tional ae of giving a pledge upon their entrance
into office, for the vacancy which they were called
to fill was created by the refufal of the former Mini.
Rees to give the pledge which was required from
them. But why flionld he (peak of pledges ? The
head of the prefent Government had gtven inntuncr•

able pledges in his time. With refpea to this very
Catholic Bill, did he not write two let ters to the Of-
ficers of the Irifh Btigade, in which he pofitively
promifed them, that what was law in Ireland (hould
be law in England ? Nay, more, that the whole
career of military honours fhould be open to them ?
If pledges of this kind had not been given, all the
gold of England, and all the gold of Ireland, nor the
eftablifhment of Compenfation Commillions, which
fat to receive claims, and lavifh the public money
upon the inllruments of corruption and fervility,
could ever have carried that great meafure. He
called upon the Noble Lord who had been fo deeply
concerned in effecting that meafure, who was privy
to the extraordinary means by sohich it was effected,'
who had dealt profufely in thole pleAges, to hold the
hands of his colleague, and to prevent him from e x•
citing religious prejudices, and principles of intole-
rance and unchatitablenefs. He thould tell him—
The pledge which he gave was to promote the
Union, and not to excite the difcord or fanaricilin of
the people ; and, if you do not concur with us in there
benevolent and patriotic views, we can have no union
with you." He trotted that the present Minitlers, in
their eagernefs for power, would not pull down the
Conftitution. The Refolution fubmitted to the Houle,
with fuch eloquence and ability, should have his
warmeft fnpporr.
Mr. BANKES fad, that he was ready to give his
fupport to any meafure brought forward for remedy.
ing the absrfes in Ireland. lie always difapproved
of the Union; and the principal reafon which made
him difapprove of it was, that he thought it threw the
claims of the Catholics to a greater ditlance than
they were before. However he waited the Catholics
to be admitted into the Contlitution, he did not think
the times were nrw ripe for their admiffion. Al.
though he might approve of the general condo& of
his Majesty's late Minitiers, yet in the circumflances
that led to their difmiffion, they (hewed a want of
knowledge not only of the difpofition of the King,
but of the difpotition of that Houle, and of the tem-
per of the country. He thought that the Minilters
were right in refuting the pledge demanded of them,
but the King had alto a tight to chute other Minifters
if he thought proper.
Mr. TIERNEY began by obferving upon an ex-
pretlion that had fallen from the Hon. Member who
moved for the other orders of the day, s 4 Wleit do we
need more than that his Majefty has clifmitilid his
Miniflers?" For his Part, he nee,led a great deal more.
He wished to know the reafon of that change which
every Gentleman that had hitherto fpuken joined
in lamenting. He regretted the difficulty of (peaking
on this fubjea, without introducing the name of his
Majefty, but that difagreeable circuintlai.ce was not
owing to any thing that had fallen from thole on his
fide of the Houfe, but from the Gentlemen on the
other fide, who Elated exprefsly that his Majefty had
no advifer in this inflance, but acted entirely from
himfelf. It had been hitherto the ufage of that Houle .
to call in queftion every aft of the Royet Prerogative,'
upon the fuppofition of its bein recr,mmended by
fume advifer ; but now, for the fit ft time, the Al of
Prerogative, which is the preterit fubjeft of difeliftion,
is flitted to have been done without any advifer. If
then there was any indecency in bringing the King's
petfonal charafter and condua into tl e confideration
of the Houle, that indecency was forced upon the
Houfe, by thofe that would not that the King had
any advifers on the fubjea. He cr uld not, how-
ever, credit the truth of this affet tint' ; he blieved
the King had fecret advifers ; and he fdpefted, for
more than a month before the late Minitters were
ditmiffed, that he was influenced by fecret advifers.
He protefled to Gon, that he believed the whole bu.
nets was the refult of a long and dark intrigue. The
Minitlersmight have mifunderflood hi, Majetly's ideas
upon the Catholic Bill, but was there no way of heal-
ing a mitunderftanding ? The Catholic Bill was with.
drawn ; every thing was done, that could in honour
be done, to fatisfy the feelings of' the King, and yet
there was no healing this mikonception He believed
in his confcience, that his Majefty would never have
demanded that pledge, if he had not been let on to do
fo by fome fecret advifers. He had nothing to gain
by this pledge, for he could have difiniffed his Mani
tiers at any future time as well as now ; but the fecret
advifers, if connected with the prefent Adminiftra-
Lion, had every thing to gain by propofing loch a
pledge, as no men of honour could take, v.:rro enter-
tained the opinions they had publicly avowed. This
pledge. which had been demanded by his Majafly,
would aft as an effectual bar to exclude from the.
Adminiftration, the greaten part of the talents, the
property, and the relpeftability of the country. This
pledge was invented by Come fecret advifer ; and it was
the only thing which could make the prefent hltnitlers
hope to retain their fituations. It appeared to him,
that the pledge was thought of only for that purpofe;
that it was mtichievous to the iniereft and the peace
of this country ; but that to Ireland it was the molt
fatal blow that the heart of man could conceive, to
deprive the people of that country of hope itfelf ; to
tell them their doom was irrevocably fixed, and that
his Majefty would never, tinder any circumflances,
grant any thing for their relief. The fyftem, however,
by which the new Minifters promifed to gevern Ire-
land, was contained in two very pretty words, firmnefs
and conciliation What they meant by firmnefs was
pretty generally known, but what they meant by con-
ciliation was pall his power to conceive. Concilia-
tion was generally fuppofed to contift of giving and
taking, but the conciliation of the prefent Minifters
was to take away every thing, and to give nothing,
not even hope. It was intuiting to the Catholics of
Ireland, that thofe doctrines fh..uld be now avowed
and fupported by a Noble Lord (Lord Caftlereagh),
who, in aol, wrote to the Leaders of the Catholic
Body, to tell them that if they would be calm and
quiet, and truft to him, their claims should be granted.
One would fuppote, that the fame pledge would be
offered to a Noble Lord who had fo pledged himfelf
to the Catholics in iBot ; one would have fuppofed
that a pledge would have been propofed to the, Duke
of Portland, who was alfo pledged to the Catholics, but
it appeared that his Majelty knew that this was not
necellary; but if his Majefty can thus fele& thofe indi-
viduals to whom he may choofe to offer a pledge, that
to an honourable man would be an eternal exclufion,
from that moment he is ablolute in this country. It was,
undoubtedly, the King's prerogative to change hisMi-
nifiers ; but; after he had exercifed that prerogative,
it was, undoubtedly, the privilege of that Houfe to ex-
prefs their opinion upon the manner in which he had
boa advifed to curare that prerogative. He thought

it was the ditty of parliament firmly tn tentonfttatta
when an inefficient Adminitlratinn was appointed at
a molt critical ,period. The prefent Adminiftra-
tion had, in fait, deblarect their own incapacity thir-
teen months ago, when they retired from rffice; and
he could not fee . what they had gained in thole
thirteen months, unlefs it was that they heal grnbin
fomewhat older. The Dram:ear Perjame were exadly
the fame now as they were then, but there was a
change of charade's. The perfon who was then At-
torney General is now made a Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer; Lord Mulgrave, who was tarmerly Secre•
tary for Foreign Affairs, is now found nut to he the
fitter perfon for Firlt Lord of the Admiralty; aral the
Duke of M rntrofe, after having fit at the Baard•a.
Trade during the lamer Adminiftration, is now ona-
lrfied by experience to take a higher place, and. be
Mailer of :he Honfe (a laugh) But it feemed that the
Doke of Portland was to be the tower of drench to
this Adminiffratien. Although lie had the greatelt
yelped for that Noble Duke, yet he mutt fry that his
age and infirmities would in a great meadire dilqua-
lify him from filling the fituation of Miniltet in this
Country. It was reported, and he firmly believed
the report, that another Minnier would loon appear.
Was it to be Lord Melville, or Lord Wale(' :y ? He
fhould with to know of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, whether now, or when the eledian was over,
he retained the fame fentiments that he ex preffed in
his advertifement, and whether he woula ferioufly far
that he believed that the church was in danger. It
it were a mere cry, let up without any meaning, he
mull declare that be could not eaaeala• that man or
devil could contrive any thing mare wicked than it
would be to diffolve the Parliament, at the m• ment it
was intended to make this cry of " No Popery," the
watch-word of civil difrention all over the Empire,
and more particularly in Ireland. He hop d that it
was not with a view of paving the way to difrolu.
lion of Parliament, that the precut Miaitters were
fo loud in (peaking of " Church and King."
Mr. MILLS laid a few words in explanati m.
Lord CAS TLEREAGH, in a fpeech of canfi-
derable length, unavoidably entered into the difcuf.
lion of fume points which he conceived to have been
already diffidently anfwered. He begged the Houle
to recoiled, that a Noble Lord on the other fide of
the Honfe (Lord Howick) had, at the very outfet
of the bufinefs, promifed that he would give an ex-
planation to the Houk, as fonn as he fhould be
fairly authorized to do fn. That pet million was
folicited by his Welly's prefent Minillers, as they
knew that fecret confidential tranfadions had been
communicated to Li:aims who were not even of
his Majelty's Privy Council ;—they did fa with a
view to re:ctre the name and charader of his Ma.
jelly from an imputation to which garbled ex-
trads (Hear ! hear I hear!)—to whieh garbled ex-
tracts might whet-wife have rn tde him liable. Up.
cn his Majesty's permitli in being rbta'ned, to Hate
the whrle of the trantaftien fully and explicitly to the
Houfe, the Noble Lord (Hawick) molt unqueftion-
ably delivered that Itaterrent to the Hook in the molt
candid, temperate, and roll edfill mariner ; but then it
was laid, that his Majehiy had had fetter advilers, wha
had recommee.cicd him to demand the pledge, and
afterwards, upon meeting a ith a potitive leitnal to
comply with the Royal Will, to difroifs his then Mini.
tiers; this he molt plainly and unequivocally denied.
The clifiniffal of his Majelly's late fervants was the
pure emanatian of the Royal Mind, as was clearly to
be underttocd from his blajefly's own declaration,
namely, that he had not feet' any perfon bur his own
Secretary from the B:llFebruary to the time of the dif-
mail of his late Miuitters. Then, as to the giving up
of the Bill, that was in hien fignal proof to any
man poffeffing that adive energy of mind with which
his Majetty was mot! eminently bleffed ; to fuch a
perlonage the at of giving up the Bill was the
drongett proof that it was only a temporary meafure.
Still, notwithstanding the acknowledged powers of
that great mind with which the Sovet eign is, happily
for his people, endowed, it mutt be extremely irkforne
to a perfon at his advanced age to contemplate the
idea of quarrelling with his fervants. To prevent
fuch an unhappy event again taking place, the de •
wand of a pledge moll naturally fuggefted itfelf as
the obvious remedy. But, Gentlemen fometime:
thought proper to refer to the antecedent circum-
flances which led to this—reference was, therefore,
had to the Hate of Ireland, and the claims of the
Catholics, and fume allufion was made to his (Lord
C.'s) former opinions on thefe points. Now, fince he
had 'aft returned to office, he had had an opportu-
nity of feeing the difpatches from the Duke of Bed-
ford upon this fubjed ; they ftated that the diftur-
bances in the Weft, and part of the South of Ireland,
were of a general nature—that they were not con.
fined to attacks made upon Protellants only ; but,
that Roman Catholics, and even the Priels of that
perfuafron, were fufFerers, in common with every
other peaceable inhabitant, from the outrages which
were committed by thofe infurgents of whom the dn.-
patches made mention. Then, with refped to the al-
lutions that had been made by an Hon. Baronet (Sir
John Newport) as to the opinions which had formerly
been declared by him (Lord C.), lie molt pofitively
declared, that he now thought, as he always did,
that it would be dangerous to admit that great mafs
of people, the Catholics of Ireland, into the full be-
nefits of the Constitution, a benefit which he thought
them but ill qualified to receive, a favour which he
had always been averfe to the conferring—he had
always been averfe to the granting of Parliamentary
favour on them to the full extent of what they wifhed
—he had always been averfe to any idea of commn-
nicating political power to them. Whattver might
be his private fpeculations, he never diked any thing
in public which he was not warranted in declaring.
Neither that great man (Mr. Pitt), of whole name
he fhould always fpeak with the utmoft veneration—
neither that illustrious Statcfman nor himfelf ever
once imagined that the entire privileges of a Britifh
Subjed fhould be granted to them, contrary to the
fenfe of a confiderable majority of every part of the
Empire. Gentlemen fhould recoiled that there were
two papers circulated in public at the time to which -
they alluded—of the one he was moll confident that
neither that great man, of whom he had already
fpoken, nor himfelf, knew any thing, until after it
was Tome time in circulation—and with refped to
the other, he recolleded that he wrote fomerhing
like it in a letter to Lord Cornwallis, Rating, that
it would be molt conducive to the interetts of the
Catholics of Ireland to remain peaceable, until the
Union ; that meal-asp he always tbonghr, might