Star.
London, England, 1831-07-15 00:00:00

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he thought dsould be inquired into, lest a return bad been
,stade with a view to the particular purpose.
Mr. WOOD thought if any suspicion existed that re-
t ;tins had been made for a particular purpose, the census cf
ILI ought to a admitlid a.s the least exceptionable, teeing
t at that time th:s measure had not been in :Thelon, and
quently there WaS no VbiCei to he gained. With regard
to ti•e la•t census he knew that there had been several trick,
1l:-td all In one bereugh in Larcwhire he knew, ard
:•i be prcpered to preelvce proof oat it, that three hundred
~.• aduls NO been introduc:d and lo.ated for two or three
for the purpose of making up the population to the
!her of qualifittvion ; and tois he t. as certain was not a
• sty insuan:e. (Hear.) H.: corld rot sit down without
.',tiring :he allusion that had ben mule by eye Learned
I.tl.man who had complain; d of hint sitting on that aide
et the hews. Ile was happy to say that the numbers of
the i any to %Mat Learned Gen.kn:an belonged was so
•.try an all—(laughter)—that he (Mr. Wood) thought they
olighi be glad to hate the company of these Members on
that side, as they n tele them •rt least look better.

Captain ILI RBIS compleined that the census of 1821
should be :eloped. Hy it the borough of Grimsby, winch
he r. presented, would he disfranchised, although, from the
?stern of the population now in his peseeesion (a copy of
which he knew that ministers had been provided with), that
the berough, according to the data of population laid down
in the bill, would now be entitled to send its representatives.
The gallant captain read the return, which made a gross total
of 4.018 inhabitants in the borough, and 177 inhabitants who
reritied In the hamlets, that paid beet and lot with the bo-
rough. The gallant captain, on that account, urged the
adoption of the census of the present year. He said, speak.
leg of Grimsby, that she had a right to send represents
fives; (laugher) she (laughter) had a right to retain her
—laughter)—frunel.i..e. Lion. members might laugh, but
he would contend diet ste—(laughter)—was entitled to her
—(laughn r)—cleetive franchise. Ile would bring forward
point at the prone: time, that would make the hon. gen-
tlemen who were g riprrsite, perhaps laugh with
the oilier sides of their meuths.—(lncreased leugh ter.) Some
I,,,roughs had suffered their rights to send members to be
destroyed, because at the time when representatives were
paid, the supporting menthers to represent them in earlins
trent ve:s deemed too expensive for them to bear ; but he
would remind them that Grimsby had never flinched from
sending members to Parliamem, and she—immense laugh.
ter)was now to Le di...rune:deed for a particular purpose.
—She—(roars of laughter,)—wan called a nomination
borough ; but if slie—(ecetiets d laughter.)—wes, she—
(great laughter) was is the hands of a Whig lord. (lat):41!-
ter.) and that was site reason why Ministers had ee or.
reflect( it, because being of their Dun party, they knew that
they could never get her out of the Whig lard's hands
(laughter.) He would be enabled at she proper time to I
bring forward all the necessary proof in the Committee.—
The 311nisters had laid down a line, but he would hereafter
I e enabled to show that ft was a crooked line. L'util they
u'll.l convince him that there was inconvenience atandins
site present numbers of the Howie, he would ont consent to
that number being abridged. On the contrary, he bud often
seen them hue:: great difficulty to make up a House,
( Laughter.) In the Committee he would prove that Great
Grimsby was above the line, and he entertained that opinion
et the honourable intention of his Alajesty's Government,
that they would do her (laughter) justice, and -he (Luighter)
would be given her (laughter) franchise.
Mr. C. %FOOL) obset red that the census of 1821 was as
snuck the line by which the bill was guided as the number of
2,000 and 4,000. if the census of 1831 was made the line.'
the standard for disfrachieing boroughs might be 3,000 end
:1.1:00, so that It arswered the sante purpose.
Su C. W ETH ERELL co:fe:ived hat the only principle
of the bill was tle will of his Majesty's, Government (hear).
They said we elii this, and we do that, without assigning ,
eny reason for so doing. They say the borough which has a
population of 2,01,0 is not a rotten borough, it will retain ,
one member. Now, according with that fact, it was p.o•
pried to offer evidence to show that a certain borough had a
right to retain a member. To that ministers objected, on
the grounds that the subject world be considered in the com-
mittee. Now how was that to be decided ? No doubt there
wcuid be a great deal of speaking in the committee, but
tart on the pert of his Majesty's ministers, who re-
lic:l more on their numbers than on their arguments.—
Now, he would esk, how was the case of Appleby to be de.
cidril in the Committee. unless a correct return of the pnpula-
thie was laid on the table ? The hon. member then referred
to the census of the population of Caine in 1821, in which it
was stated that sonic years previously the woollen trade had
Nourished there, but that latterly its trade had declined very
much. Now it was possible that a borough which had
a population of 2000 in 1621, might not have a population
to that amount now. Should not evidence then be admitted
to satisfy the Heusc whether or not certain boroughs had
the population attributed to them ? What would the Seli-
citor-General, whom he saw in his place, say, if a bill was
filed in equity respecting a fact which was not in existence?
Cettld any men. ceiling themselves 31inistere, have the pre-
sumption to soy, that certain boroughs should be disfran-
chised, on the presumption of facto, without admitting
evidence of those facts ? If no other person did,
he (Sir C. Wetherell) would bring forward a cootie n res.
rooting the admission of evidence in the Committee. We
ate now legislating in the y. ar 1831; why then should we go
back to the year 1021, and make the census of that year the
standard of legislation? The house were told that they
should march with the times, but Ministers proposed to go j
ten years back. He saw Ministers smile : they iedulgcd
in smites more than in argument. But perhaps the country
would think that their smiles arose front a coovietion ed
their f illy. But 31 inistere declined to snake the census of
16:41 the standard, lest they should be accused of partiality in
leaking it. This was tl:e shabby-genteel. How could they
be accused of partiality, when the returns were made by
responsible officers cm oath. (Hear.) lie did net oh. I
j.ct to have the Member for Middlesex, and others 6f that ;
cave, sitting on the opposition side of the house ; tut he
objected to their crying no, not when they should say yes,
yes t—hissisig when they ought to applaud. He did not
mean to say that a radical had no right to sit behind him,
hushing his knees into his (Sir C. Wetherell's) back, and
whispering his JacobiMcal doctrines into his cars. (Laugh.
ter.) It was under these eircutnstances that he troubled the
house. The honourable member for Worcester, and the
honourable Aldern.an, one of the representatives of the City.
had complained of waste of time, but he (Sir C. Wetherell)
thought.that all those who opposed the bill had a right to be
lt,teu. (Hear.)
Lord A IEIIORP did not rise again to enter into the
theiate. The lion. and Learned Gentleman might, by
t :tidal a question, usually debated on the second reading,
it. !ay the Bid fix a considerable time, but he ( Lord Althorp)
would tell the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, that the peo-
ple of England would eetimete his motives fully : (cheers).
The speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman was
directed as well to the principle of the Bill as to the Cone-
winter. The speech was not a keg one for the Hoe. and
Learned Gentleman—(a laugh); but he- (Lord Althorp)
seculei ten be led into any discussion of the principle of the
BM, and be hoped that his lion. Friend would adopt the
niter course: (cheers).

Sir It. PEEL expressed his surprise at the observations I
• Lich had Callen front the noble lord. The hon. and learned'
getalemaa 1.. d addressed himself to the subject matter of
tto trill, and he lad a right to do so. (Hear.) The people',
o. England might estimate the opposition of the ben. and
learned gentleman ; but might no: the people of Engl..nd at
the saute time put a question, which it would be difficult to
tiswer, namety, •hetncr it was just to found a measure upon
census taken ten years since ? (Cheers.) His hon. and
khrued friend had expressed his intention to move for the
c.:•►us of 1831; but, if he did so, he (Sir R. Peel) begged
L. ace to tell hint that ho would oppose any such motion ; for
he would not, by agreeing to it, admit the principle that such
a e,II*US was any sufficient foundation to rest this bill open.
(' kat, hear). The hon. member for Preston had stated
that, en the night Wire the late census was taken, 300
staler, slept in one botough ; and it a mail coach broke
(Joan at Mal or., and that six persons slept there OR that
particular night, could it he contended that the census in
which these persons were included would be the proper test
to go by ? (Cheers.) lf a great k„.ht, or any other occasion,
aril a great ninny persons to sleep in this borough, in that
an additional n;tjection would be raised. He therefore ob-
j to the et usus of 1831 being received as a test.—
Having observed upon the course adopted with lespect to
the. tight of ruling being limited to 101. householders, the
right boa. baronet eoncludid by denying that, if popula-
tion were to be the basis of the measure, the census of
either 1821 of 11s31 could be adopted as a proper guide.
Mr. ATTWOOD objected to the course adopted by his
Majesty's Ministers of appealing on all occasions to the
people, and by that means endeavouring to influence the
decision of that House. (Hear, hear.) The lion. gentle-
man asked how it was intended to consider the clauses and
the schedule►, and argued upon the inconsistency of the
measure generally.
Lord A LTHORP said that it was intended to consider
schedule A. as part of the Ist clause, and so on with respect

to the other schedules and the clauses to which they referred.
Mr. WALL commented upon the observations of the
Hon. and Learned Member for Boroughbridge, and said that
the better way would belt once to go into the Committee,'
when the Hon. Members would have an opportunity to raise
objections whether in favour of Appleby or any other
borough.
Sir C. WETHERELL made a few observations in ex-
planation.
Mr. C. PELHAM made a few observations in favour of
the motion, that the Speaker do leave the chair.
The question was then put and curried.
THE COMMITTEE ON THE REFORM BILL.
The house then went into committee.

Lord J. RUSSELL, in propo'it.g the first clause, said
that their object was to render the representation free and
independent, and to throw open such nomination boroughs
as Gotten. In &siting the line for separating the boroughs
to be disfranchisA from those to be continued, they had
adopted the population returns as the best test which pre.
sentrelltself. Toe test whit respect to 101. houses was by
no Incar.b certain, and they therefore thought that the popu-
lation returns of 1821, whether defective or correct, was the
very hat title which could have been adopted. On a former
DC. a,it n l.e Lad stated that it was intended to dishanchive
all boroughs where the population did not exceed 2,000, and
to continue the.se the populm ion of which exceed 4,000. It
wits however considered that for the boroughs with a popu-
lation of eily 4,001 r, one Representative would be quite suf-
fieient. and thcmfore only one member would be allowed to
Ibn,e boroughs by the present mewure. In conclusion, the
Noble Lori mov.d the him clause. _

The CHAIRMAN of the Committee proceeded to read the
clause, and had nearly got through it, when
Mr. CROKIiII suggested whether the mere convenient,
as well as the mere usual course would be. tar the Chair.
man to read only so much of the clause rot cont Lined a dis-
tit:et utt.:stion. A question might be raised upon every word
in the clause.
Sir E. B. SUGThiN mid that It could not be denied that
his Majesty's 31ittisters had departed from their original
rop...ith,n, from the magical line which they had marked
out for themselves. This appeared from the changes made
in the schedules A and 13, and by a speech made by a
noble lord who took the crLdit of the measure to himself
and it would further appear that the great object was
to attack those boroughs which were called nomination
boroughs.
Dr. LUSIII XGTON replied to the arguments of the
hon. m.d learned member for St. Mawes, and said that
the senses of those who opposed the measure seemed to have
h(1.11 rendered eh:use by :he course which they had adopted.
04 sr, hear:. Ile would vote for the disfranchisement of the
boroughs in ::citedule A, for he thought it was the duty of
government to adapt the representation to the circumstances
of tie times.

3lr. Dentsto and Sir It. PEEL rose at the same time, but
the former gave way.
Sir R. PEEL declared that he did not wish to revive any
ditcwsion as to the principle. of the bill, as it was the desire
to proceed at once with the Committee. It was intended to
consider all the boroughs in schedule A. as part of the first
clause, but he would suggest whether, there being sixty
bornughs in that schedule, and as there might be 87 qua-
dons raised respecting these boroughs, it would not be more
convenient first to eLcide upon the principle of disfranchise.
mint, and then to discuss the riihts of the different boroughs
in the schedule. This was a measure creating a new Con.
stitution, ar.d he consequently thought that time ought to
be no object, but that the desire should be to do that which
was done justly and upon sound principle. Having made
these observations, he trusted that they would go on with
' Committee in good humour, and that every facility
would be given to the discussion.
Mr. BAKING hoped that the House would not be Ind-
midatcd by the appeals which were made to persons out of
doors. The line drawn with respect to nomination boroughs
was most unjust, for he could show, without any difficulty,
that several of those boroughs a hilt were to remain, were
nothing more nor less titan nomination boroughs. (Cheers.)
The suburban 101. householders would be enabled to return
whom they pleased to that house, and the consequence would
be, that his 31ajcsty's :Ministers would be incapable of
carrying any measure.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL thought that the proposition of
the tight hon baronet was an extremely fair one. The right
bun. baronet had said that there were several boroughs, the
fact of the population of which was disputed. The noble
lord then replied to shat had fallen from the hon. member
( Mr. Baring) with respect to the establishing a democratic
oligarchy. The hon. gentleman was very ingenious, but he
(Lord J. Russell) seldom felt any thing like conviction front
the hon. gentleman's arguments. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. H. GURNEY dissei.ted front the concession proposed
to be made by the right hoe.. member for Tamworth.
sir R. PEEL said that he meant to make no concession
of principle, for lie meant to vote against disfranchisement,
unless overruled by a division of the House. It was invi.
dious to take any one borough, but he would, for the sake of
argument. mention Bletchingley ; and the question with res-
pect to thechingley would then be, whether by the returns
or 1821 and 1831, it was entitled to remain part of the clause
or be transferred to schedule B. He would certainly vote
against burgage disfrarchisement, but he thought the course
be lind su..tgestcd the more convenient one, for then the
House would have to decide whether they would adopt or
!eject the witoie clause.
Lord ALTHORI' thought the proposition of the Right
Hon. Haionet yerfectly fair. namely that after deciding the
que-tion with respect to one borough, It would not be ne-
cessary to delay the Committee with deciding the fact with
respect to other boroughs coming within the same principle.
3lr. BARING observed, that some hon. gentlemen did
riot object to partial disfranchisement, and that a general
question could tot therefore be so easily decided.
Sir R. INGLIS thought that Ministers ought to have
stated the principle of the clause betore they proposed it.
31r. CAMPBELL conceited that the word " None"
would be a proper word to divide the House upon.
3lr. H. GURNEY expressed himself opposed to dis.
franchisement generally, and therefore could not see how
the principle was to be decided by taking the sense upon a
' particular word.
Sir It. PEEL could not agree with the hon. and learned
gentleman, and he should therefore take the sense of the
house upon the ward " each," (Hear, hear.) The right
hon. gentleman moved an amendment to that effect.
The CHAIRMAN then put the Intendment.
Sir C. WETHERELL.—The ministers say that all the
boroughs in schedule A. should be disfranchised, ar.d he
agreed in tee amendment of his right hon. friend, the mem-
ber ft: Tantworth, es it would not interfere with any future
division on the merits of the bill.

Sir G. CLERK said that the Committee was placed in a
state of embarrassment, because the principle of disfranchise-
ment was not explained in the clause before the committee.
It was necessary that some principle should be laid down, to
regulate the committee in deciding upon all the cases in
schedule A. It might be well to have the object explained
in the clause.

Mr. C. FERGUSON thought that the best mode to adopt
was to go through the boroughs regularly, and to begin with
Akiborough, as it was one of the most corrupt. He differed
with the Right Hon. Baronet.
Sir It. PEEL, said he could nut attend to the suggestion
of the hon. gentleman. He moved an amendment.
Lord A LEH OR P raid that he considered the amendment
of the right honourable baronet very fair. He thought it
batter to adop. the suggestion of the right hon. baronet, and
ne was retaiy to go to the question. He repeated again, that
the object of the goverment was to disfranchise nomination
borcugos.
After some further rein:irks from an hon. member,
:dr. KNIGHT said that the question put by the hon.
mva bee for Fichester had not beta answered by the noble
lord. The question is, is the teat to be applied to this
question, population or nomination?" and he wished to know
which of the tests was to be applied to the question. The
promoters of the bill will not answer a plain question, but
depend upon their silent majority. He condemned the si-
lence of the government, who sat in silent scorn ; and he
believed that, had not the members on his side of the house
assisted in amending the bill, that it would go to the other
House in a most extraonlinary shape. (Hear.) He stood
as the representative of one of the Boroughs included in
the schedule A. and he denied that it was a nomi-
, nation borough. He had 192 voters in an independent
station of life. He was returned, because it was known
that Isis principles t ere in accordance with the political
feelings of the electors. There was a constituency in the
borough which he bad the honour to be returned for,
(Bishop's Castle,) amounting to 320 voters. There were
glaring inconsistencies in the principle of the bill taking
taxation and representation as being connected with each
other. He could not avoid observing that there were in-
cluded in the schedule A. boroughs which paid as much
taxation as those that were to be exempted. He again re-
peated the question of the hon member for Llcheater.
Lord J. RUSSELL said that the test was population, and
the object in view was, to do away with nomination. There
were two t xceptions In the schedule,. he meant Downton and

St. Ives. Ile denied that the Government in:ended to
favour any rarticular parties. He must confess that he
considered such insinuations an attack on his personal
honour. He thought that the speeches of the opponents of
the measure had been fully answered by his colleagues.
With respect to the observations of the hon. and learned
member that the ministers omitted to answer all arguments
founded on law and morality, be contended that the present
system of representation stood upon principles contrary to
law and morality. (Chem )
Mr. C. FERGUSSON denied that the majority were
bound by pledges. It would be new to the people of Eng-
land to hear that the Member for Bishop's Castle was an in-
dependent Member. He would ask the hon. member, Mr.
Knight), if he was in a situation to vote for the Bill be-
fore the Committee, if he chancd his mind upon the sub-
ject.—( Cheers.)
Dlr. KNIGHT said that he had not given any pledge,
and was as free and as uepledged as any Member m that
House.
An Honourable MEMBER asked the Hon. Member what
he meant by saying that he was elected on account of his
principles ?
Mr. HUNT said that the people of England were misled
by gross and unblushing misrepresentations. He knew what
that beastly press would do, but he did not care about
the press. The proceedings of the house were grossly
mistepresented through the influence of some secret agency.
He did not allude to the honourable gentlemen Mho re-
ported. The press was to be influenced by tulvertiae-
ments, and other modes. The Times had a few months
ago supported the Duke of Wellington's admirdstra-
ticn. He trusted that the people of England, when they
should learn the proceedings that had taken place that
night, would benefit by it. He then exhibited a medal
that was struck in Birmingham, at the instance of n rude-
man in Math, in commemoration of the passing of the bill.
He understood that several were distributed amongst tile mi.
nisters. On one side it contained William the Fourth, Pa-
tron ; Earl Grey, Lord Brougham, Lord J. Russell, and tht
people. (Laughter). It contained an enumeration of all
the suppwmd grievances, the et rn laws, tithes, the slave
trade, the charters, &c. nail on the other side thete was in.
scribed comtuerce, trade, cheap bread, end the people. The
lion. member went on in the same strain amidst great fledge,
and cries of question. Ile threatened an adjournment if he
was not allowed to go on, as he hail been promised to be se-
conded in :my motion for an adjournment. (Name, name; go
on, go on.) lie insisted upon his right to address the home
as we:llns any other member. The borough of Newark would
be rendered more under the influence of the noble duke,
the patron, than it was under the present system. The
boromsh of Preston would be reduced by a diminution of
the electors (root 7,000 to 900. Be voted for the bill, be-
cause it made an inroad en the most accursed system tats:
ever disgraced any country. (Hear and laughter.)
Mr. tH OK Fit was opposed to any disfranchisement at
all. (Question, question.)
The gallery was then cleared for a division, when the
numbers were—
For the motion ... 193
Against it

Majority for Ministos
When we entered the gallery, we found the Chairman
putting the question, That he report progress, and ask leave
to sit again.
House haring resumed, the other Orden of the Day
were di.•pcsed of ; and the House adjourned at One o'Clock.

r ORI.I1;N I.c TELLIG ENCE.
NEWS FRObl POLAND.
SECEIVSD THIS DAY.

WARSAW, 31:LY -I.—Prince Czartoryski, Pre-
sident of the National Government, has issued two
Proclamations, dated the Ist and 2nd instant: the
first, to the nation, calls on it to a general partici-
pation in the landsturro, which is to bo orga-
nized ; and the other, to the army, exhorting it to
exert itself to the utmost, in the decisive struggle
which is at hand.

The National Government has ordered an extra-
ordinay Court'Martial to be appointed, to try Gens.
Hurtig, Jankowski, and Salozki, Col. Slupecki,
M. Lease!, the Chamberlain Fenshaw•e, and Mad.
Bazanow. Brigadier-General Wengierski is Pre-
sident of this Court Martial.

The Warsaw Courier of to-day says :—" The
Committee appointed to examine the papers of the
persons arrested on the 29th of last month, is said
to have completed its task, and to have delivered its
report to the national government.
On the 29th, a courier from Lithuania arrived in
the capital, with several reports from Generals
Gielgud and Chlapowski, to the Commander-in-
Chief, who has communicated to the Goverment
a repoi t on the operations of the latter front 26th
of Mat- to 15th of June, and the latter from 21st
of May to 11th of June.
The General in Chief has also addressed to the
Government a report dated the 2d, from his head-
quarters
at Warsaw ; in Which be announces that
he has received a report from General Gielgud,
who informs hint that, on June 19, he had with
part of his corps, undertaken a strong reconnois-
sance towards Wilna ; but the enemy having col-
hcted their whole fete° at that place, advanced
against the General in such numbers, that he could
not hope to gain a battle : he therefore retired to
liis foru.er positions, and in the sequel two marches
farther from \Vilna.
The last accounts from Lithuania are to the 23d
June. The organizatian of new regiments pro-
ceeded rapidly, and the whole army was in high
spirits. The loss on the 19th was some hundreds
killed and wounded on each side. Gene. Dem-
binski and Szymanowski were not engaged —the
former acting against \Vilna on the other side, and
the latter being detached against Polengen.
The S;ote Grizette says, Field-Marshal Paske-
witsil joined the Russian army on the 25th ult.—
He tiaveiled by way of 'Johannisberg, and
Delottowen at Loam; he first received the detach-
ments of hoops there, and on the following days
reviewed the. other troops in their respective can-
tonments. On this account the advanced detach-
ments fell back to their main corps—for instance,
from Stoczek and Seroczyn, in Podlachia, and from
Plonsk in Flock. Of the (lit ision which arrived
under the command of Geu. Kaisaroff, there were,
on June 29, about 4000 men near Zamcsc, who
occupied the plain between that fortress and the
AustrEat frontiers. No detachments of this corps
had advanced to Pulawy, as one of our journals has
erroneously stated. _

The same paper says—lt is reported the corps
of General Kreutz has followed Generals Kunue
and Knorring, to act against the patriots in Li-
thuania. We learn also that the reason by Ge-
neral Rudiger crossed the Wussry was to bring 2000
cavalry to the main way through Podlachia. In
the province of Plozk, the Russians have with-
drawn from the district of Lipnow, they have also
left Plozk ; but it seems that they mean to main-
tain the line of operations from Wiszagrod to Pul-
tusk. In Podlushia there are only detached pa
troll in the environs of Siedlec.

The same paper says, a Provisional Central Go-
vernment. is organized in Lithuania, of which the
senator, Tyszkieweiz, formerly General in the
Polish army, is President. The Government is
chiefly occupied in raising troops, and procuring n-
ecessaries for them. The Lithuanian regiments
are organized like ours. The regular organized
cavalry amounted, on the 15th ult. to six thou-
sand men. According to all accounts, says the
Warsaw courier, " The enemy's army is falling
back on the t 4 hole line, some corps are marching