Star.
London, England, 1801-11-28 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The Militia Bill was read a feeond time, and committed for
A Meffage from the Lords informed the Houle their l.ord-
Ifit agreed to the Lottery Aliftakc Bill, and the Starch
and Difillery• Bill, without any amendment.
The Houle in a Committee on the Naval Stores Bill—Repot
on Monday.
The Committees on the Exchequer Bills Funding Bill, and of
Supply, and Ways and MdalS, were deferred till Nlonilay.
POOR. _ _

Mr. NF WDOLT moved the order of the day for
a Committee on the Bill relative to relieving Poor
Perfons, not wearing Badges.
On the Qffeftion for the SPEAKER leaving the
Chair,
Sir Wm. ELFORD laid, that be wifhcd to fay a
very few words before the Houfe went into a Com-
mittee, which he hoped would be the hilt time he
should have occafion to call their attention to the
prelent fubjeFt, becaufe the alteration propofed by
his Hon. and Learned Friend in the provifions of
the Bill, would, in his mind, do away the objec-
tions he had heretofore urged. Some compli-
ments, he laid, had been made to the Hon. Gen-
tleman who brought forward this meafure, on the
purity of his motives: if he had not paid him that
tribute, it was becaufe he fuppofed it impotrible
any one could attribute to him any but honourable
motives for his condat. He tiufted, however,
that the Houfe and the Public were inclined to view
with the fame candour, the motives of thole who
had not oppoled, but promoted a difcullion of the
Qt_reltion. It would be recollected that they had,
from the beginning, admitted, that an evil
exilt-
ed, to which it was neeellary a remedy fhould be
applied, and the only queftion was, what the na-
ture, extent, and duration of that remedy ought
to be?, Another doubt had alfo been propoled,
whether it was a wife and prudent [Lep totally to
do away a regulation of very long !landing, which
bad been enacted by our predeceffors with a view
of inducing habits of induftry and economy in the
lower clafs of people ? He particularly called the
attention of the Houfe to thefe circumflances, be-
cattle fume opinions had been thrown out, the ten-
dency of which was to infinuate that thole who
provoked the difeuffion of the meafure, had not
flat ftrong feeling for the diftreffes of the Poor,
and that full fenfe of the loyalty and patience with
which they had concluded themfelves, during the
very fevere trials which they had lately experien-
ce 1; opinions Inch as thefe from fome quarters
rni.7ht he realonably expected, and therefore be
heard them without much emotion; but from another
quarter they could not be liflened to, for various
rettfons, without a confiderable degree of mortifi-
cation and regret. The Houfe would naturally
' conclude, that he meant to allude to what had
fallen from his Right Hon. Friend on a former
irwcAion, when the encomiums which were lavill-
ed on the exemplary conduct of the people during
the late prelfure, might lead to an inference that
thole who differed from him had nut the fame
kind f feelings with Wmfelf on that fubjea. lie
W.IS fare it was quite unncceflary to (late, that he
triew tie honourable and 'pit feelings of his Right
llon. *Friend too well, to fuppofe that he defigned
to mike any fuch charges; but as that kind of
im did not appear neceflarily to arife from
rny that had preceded it, and as it could
rant lie :.:I,;•,,Ced that any light or groundlcf. opi-
nions be delivered It orn that quarter, the in-
I.:I enc.: lie had alluded to would moil probably he
which would tend to weaken the influence
:.0,1 tuithi rity of thol: Hon. Mcmhers who had
tak •n the fano: part with himfof, in tilzir capacity
..1 lsl.l,:si I:l:Ares, and thus take off that guard et the
faddy .u.t! trarquillity of the Country, %aid, waf,
fiont that influence .Ind authority. He
repeated, di.,: nothing could be farther lions his
nond t it ti% xttributc fucia intentions to his Right
I -Tor. 1 ri,:rl.l; but he thought it riecuffnry to lay
t...t, few %%,,,ds, in order to do away the impref-
tom v what he had referred to might other-
wile have mAcie on the public mind. He sviilied
idib to add, that the difeufflon of this fubjcet had
Leer produMive of that for which it had been initi-
t..:,d—a pr.tty confiderable invelligation of the
1;,•.;.a, and a very materi.il alteration in the pro-
ti.:. us of tile 1111, to %shit h, as it would nut%
Wind, l c v iircaslr to give his entire assent.
11.4.1 e then telilvcd itfclf into a Commi.tet.

Dlr. 11i sKEI. v ohjcaed to any imois.ttion is
tlic row. Laws, conceiving tlirt t!ic whole Syikni
o•ig!-.. to be lithmitted to the cu:nYer.itirin u 1 a
Conimittce, and thoroughly inveligated, in orcki
that 1...11 a'..tcrAti-ms might he tr..ie: as limold be
tbnu ?a neccii:it }. So many
bee:i Litcly made in tli l'ocr Lens, that Si

ciuld ft at celi I;clcrinwn %%obit the Poo: (...ms
lie had no obictiion, affilt in the tet,r.
DiJtion of the Poor Lau., a labour v was ;it

Trestnt hiOly ticceirdry. as the LAndeil Intercit
was iillped by diem. The Poor RAtcs,
wcrc in Lc yc.ar .;- 5, in the put:ll..4%mm now,

he laid, from 93. to roc an increafe, which he
thought, fliewed the neceffity of come inveffigation
of that Syflem under which it had taken place.
TheCtlANc et Lott ofthe EXCHEQN E ti raid he would
not difpute what had been advanced by the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Berkeley), that it might be pro-
per to examine and inveftigate the whole Syltem
of the Poor Laws, and make filch alterations as
might appear neceffary, but lie was lure that
Houfe would not ad worthy of itfelf if it withheld
the adminiflering of a remedy for a grievance
proved to exill, and which required immediate le-
giflative interference, until an oppoi tunity occur-
red of reviling the whole Syllem of Poor Laws.—
When fedi an inverti;;Ation (hould take place, it
would require all the attention of the ahlelt Mem-
bers of that Houfc, during a long Seffion of Par-
liament. He was certain, however, lie did not
belie the fentiments of Gentlemen in that Houle,
when he laid they would blulh it they delayed the
means of alleviating any particular evil until they
had inveliigated the whole Syftem, in order to in-
quire what particular parts of it might require the
legiflative interference. When an evil was proved
to the fatisfadion of that Houfc to exifl, then was
the time to remedy it. The increafe of the Poor
Rates had been mentioned by the Hon. Gentle-
man (Mr Berkeley), but it fhould be recolleded,
that a great part of that increafe arofe out of po-
litical circumflances, and had nothing ftriftly to
do with the relief of the Poor. The fupport of
the wives and families of Militia Men, and many
other circumflances contributed to make the Poor
Rates much larger than they were before. The
greater part of the increafe of the Poor Rates did
not arife therefore from the Relief of the Poor,
conflitutionally fo called. The Hon. Baronet,
(Sir W. Elford) had, he Paid, done him but juf-
tice in fiippofing he would not attribute a want of
feeling for the diftreffes of the Poor to other Gen-
tlemen. Wkat he Paid on a former evening, which
had been alluded to by the Hon. Baronet, arofe
from the impulfe of his feelings, on a propofition
being made for delaying the meafure now before
the Houle ; it was under the impreflion that pro-
pofition made upon his mind that he had made
thole obfervations, without the remoteft intention
of imputing the want of feeling to any Gentleman.
He confidered the Bill as not only wife and politic,
but he thought that if ever there was a juft appeal
to the paffions and feelings of the Houfe, it was
the prefent meafure. Every one muff know, that
if the Badge had been affixed to all the Poor ap-
plying within a late period for relief, almoft all
the labouring Poor in the kingdom muff have worn
it. It muff alfo be well known, that when men
become difgraced, and degraded in their own efti-
, mation, as every man mull if compelled to wear
Poch a Badge, the moral principal became weak-
ened, and they were eafily led to.the commiflion
of crimes which before they fhuddered at. Had
the Poor, applying for relief, been indifcriminately
compelled to wear this Badge, they would have
become bad fubjeds, bad hufbands, bad fathers,
and bad men. It was to him a melancholy reflec-
tion, that many of the Poor had been rendered
unable, through the preffure of the times, to pro-
cure proper and decent apparel : thinking, as he
did, that that citcumftance would alfo contribute
to leffen that proper pride which tended to pre-
fcrve them from the commiflion of difhonourable
ads, he Ihould be extremely forry if this meafure
was delayed a moment longer than was neceffary.
Mr. SIMkON approved of the Bill, conceiving
that the Hon. Gentleman whO had propofed the
meafure had very properly taken a middle courfe
without interfering with the general principle. On
the general fubjed of the Poor Laws, he allowed
they were complicated and intricate, but he thought
moll of the queftions which could aide out of
them, had been already fettled, and that they had
now generally become matter of fad, which admit-
ted of little or no doubt. He thought, however,
that Gentlemen, who, with the belt intentions,
brought forward meafures to meet any circum-
flances that arofe, were always entitled to atten-
tion and applaufe, and that they only erred when
they attempted to grafp the whole fyltem of the
Poor Laws, and to provide for every poffible cafe :
he, therefore, did not agree" with the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Berkeley), in his general cenfure of
the Poor Laws.

Mr. ELL:sow thought by far too confiderable a
furn of money had been (pent to arrive at the mat-
! ter of fart mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Simeon). He confidered every meafure of this
nature with reference to the 43d of Elizabeth, from
which he never wifbed to depart. The Aft of
William 111. was made for ordinary times, and not
fur times like thole which we had lately experienc-
ed. He thought, that if there was a wretch in
the kingdom capable, for the fake of a paltry
moiety of a zos. penalty, to compel an Ovcrfeer to
carry into execution a Law, the breach of which
was more honourable to him than the obferv;mcc,
this Bill certainly ought to pafs.
The Sri AK ER obfervcd, that a great deal had
been Paid, which was not ftriftly in order, but as
it had been allowed, he wifhed to fay a few words
relative to the obfervations which had been made.
With refpeft to the motives of Gentlemen, which
had been made part of the difculllon, it was not to
he fuppofed but that Gentlemen afted there with
the purcit and bcli motives. As to the obferva-
Lions made on the Poor Laws, it fLould be obferv.
et!, that a different management frequently took
place in different Parifhes, by which, as was the
'cafe in two Parifhes where he poffeffed property,
the Poor Rates were increafed in one and not in
the other.—The Aft of William 111. with refpeft
to the provifions now under eon fidcration, had not
been executed in many parts of the kingdom, but
if executed at all, it mull be inditcriminately ; the
objat of the Bill now before the Houk, was, there-
tUre, to make a rliflinflion, which appeared to be
called for by preen: circumflanccs.
Mr. BERKELEY and Mr. SIMEON fcvcrally ex-
plained:.

Mr. NI, wrocr (Aid, the objet of the Bill was
to prevent thole pet forts Applying for the means to
liti.port theirs in their career of inchillrioutt exec tion
from being confounded with another And wholly
d;ffc rent elaf> of Pont.
Mr. SHAW LLFI.b Itl; thought tLe ()Ned of this

meafare miFht be attained by tut, fl it ming a fummiry
determination before a Magifirate, for a pr6fecu•
tion for indielment againff Overfeers, whom it ap-
peared this Bill was intended to protea. He did
not conceive that the difcontcnt of the Poor, or
even riots arifing in cont“luence, ought to be
brought forward as an argument in favour of the
prefent Bill. He thought the Poor, during the
late prefrure, had been much better off than before,
from the large firms liberally crntributed for their
fupport, whiff' the minor payers of Poor Rates
had been iniferably opprefred.
Mr. NEWDOLT faid, the circuthflince on which
the Bill was founded, was not th^ penalty upon
Overfeers, but this, that Overfeers v;;opld be com-
pelled, in confequence of that penalty, to carry the
provifion of the Ak% of William 111. relative to
badges, into execution.
Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE explained.
The Bill then paired the Committee.
The Houfe being returned, the Report wail or-
dered to be immediately received ; and being
brought up by Mr. Sturgefs, was ordered to be
taken into further confideration on Monday, and
the Bill ?o be printed, as amended.—Adjourned
till Monday.

LONDON.