Star.
London, England, 1822-03-05 00:00:00

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Sir HU
at the

points in
defended

the milk

his satisfaction
Officers
Mr. H

predicament
friends,
nist.ets
Alared their

place.
this change
last had sty
lonies was
But what

no dimn

year and

from 8]
holies 1;

cause 400
therefore
12,300.

were adduced

projects.
in our coil

only to

being

2,300.

being no,
68,000

last year

for eittu
The wh\
was 550.

the esti'

par i son
Noble _ glee
of the Noble Marquis (Condonderry) and neither
of them with that of the Committee of Finance.—
The Noble Lord had accused his Honourable Friends

of being too prone to discontent, because, said he,
they only asked a reduction of 10,000 men last year,
and Ministers have reduced 12,800 wen, and still

they are dissatisfied. Now, the Noble Lord should
have done him (Mr. Hume) the justice to remember,
that he had made a motion for the reduction of
20,000 men, and that he had been induced to with-
draw it only by the persuasion of his Hon. Friends,
who thought that a motion for 10,000 men was more
likely to meet with success. He proposed to reduce
the existing force by 20,000 men, leaving the num-
ber of our Army at 60,000, which he thought suffi-
cient for every purpose of security or defence. He
had formerly gone back to 1792, for a period of com•
parison, and he could not help again pressing on the
attention of the Committee the necessity of following
the example then set us. At that- time, then, our
military force, rank and file, was 36,363 men, and
including Officers 45,000. Now, what was the re-
duced vote of this year ?-68,000, including 8000
Officers. We had then 36,000 rank and file. We
had now 60,000. The. Marine Corps then amounted
to 8000. Now it amounted to 15,000. The Noble
Marquis (Londonderry) had lately stated, that this
Corps was employed as a land force, and, conse-
quently, might be added to the land force when
comparing the numbers of the Army at different pe-
riods. Here, therefore, was an addition to our
Army of 7000 men over the Marine Corps of 1792.
This was surely too much. We had nine or ten re-
giments locked up in the lonian Islands, which, with
a better government of these islands, might be with-
drawn. We had 12,000 men in the new colonies, a
great portion of which might be reduced. In reckon-
ing our military force at home, the militia, the con-
stitutional force of the- country, had been strangely
overlooked by the Noble Lord. That forceamounted
to 63,000 men, and, together with the volunteers,
cost the Public between 500,0001. and 600,0001. per
annum, sufficient for the pay of the rank and file of
our army in 1792, exclusive of Ireland. The militia,
the volunteer corps, the marines, and the artillery,
were all additions to our military establishment, and
ought to enable us to reduce the regular force in
proportion. These species of force were either useful
or they were not: if they were, they ought to supply,
as far as they went, the place of other troops; if they
were not, then why incur an expense of half a mil-
lion a year for their pay ? All these troops, there-
fore, were to be added to the force of the regular
army. And what was there in the circumstances of
the country different from 1792 to render such a
military establishment necessary? With the excep-
tion of the disturbances in Ireland, which had no po-
litical character, and could not be termed an insur-
rection, though attended with great cruelties and
atrocities, he knew nothing. The disturbances of
Ireland were then of a temporary nature, and three
thousand men were quite sufficient. There were
thus sixty thousand rank and file, instead of thirty-six
thousand, which would be sufficient for all purpose.
There was room for a reduction of 20,000 ment in-
stead of 3,300. The latter reduction was quite inade-
quate. A much more effectual reduction was re-1
quired, and before he should sit down he would move
a reduction of more men, by which a sum exceeding
half a million sterling would be saved, and that was
a saving not to be despised in the present state of the
country. In 1792, the life, horse, and foot guards,
had been 7,500. Last year they were upwards of
17,000 men. Here was a surplus of 10,000 men.-1
Last year the Noble Lord had argued, that a large
disposeable force was required for the purpose of re-
lief. This year the word relief never escaped him.
Every one of the cavalry in the guards, was equal in
expense to a junior clerk. With a view to economy,
he would say that the Government had discharged
too many junior clerks. They should rather dispense
with a few of the cavalry. The latter were for mere
parade and splendour about the Monarch. The
guards were placed as sentries in this place and
that place—at the West India Docks, and at the
British Institution in Pall-mall. Ministers would
have troops to protect the arts and sciences, though
they were rather ruined by military protection.---.
He would then, upon the whole number, propose a

were the better. It was, no doubt, painful to break
up old corps, but the Duke of York had in 1796 re-
duced 110 regiments to 94. If in time of war such
a reduction in the number of regiments took place,
was it proper to have 94 regiments now ? The Ame-
ricans had reduced their army altogether, and were
husbanding their resources. Why, then, shculd we
have five or six thousand men in Canada? He there-
fore moved, that 58,802 be substituted for 68,802 men.
Colonel WOOD contended that the Militia and
Yeomanry had no bands, and only one drummer for
every two companies; the Hon. Gentleman had
spoken of a little riot going on in Ireland, for his part
he should be very sorry to see such a little riot going
on in the country to which he belonged. The object
of keeping up skeleton regiments was, that the old
soldiers should form the new ones.

Sir J. NEWPORT said, he would not have risen
to say anything upon this question, but for remarks
made respecting the state of Ireland, in which he
could not concur. His earliest wish had been to get
an examination instituted into the state of Ireland,
and a remedy applied to the evils which distressed
that country. But there was a limit and a period to
investigation as to other things, and Ireland was in
that state when investigation could not be instituted,
and when, not riot, but insurrection, required the
strong arm of the law—(Cheers from the Ministerial
side). It was impossible for him to regard as a riot
ghat was an open insurrection, and a defiance of
law and authority(Cheersfront the Ministerial side).
The Government of Ireland had been most shamefully
and scandalously deceived by men who ought to have
had correct information. He alluded to the informa-
tion given respecting Belfast and Mountrath. But
there had been most dreadful outrages committed,
and horrid assassinations. A Roman Catholic Cler-
gyman had been attacked because he had from the
altar recommended peace and good order. Could
he doubt that this was a state requiring additional
military force ?—(Cheers from the Ministerial side)—
He :rusted it would pass away, but it would be by
the vigorous execution of the law to put down vio-
lence. It would be imperious afterwards to look
into the causes of the disturbances. Having always
been the advocate of peace and examination, he was
now obliged to say that harmony must be first re-
stored; and then he would urge a thorough, com-
plete, and radical investigation, and the application
of a full, safe, and adequate remedy—( Hear, hear).
General G A SCOIG N E would certainly vote against
the proposed reduction. Hon. Members talked of the
state in which our army had stood previous to the
late war ; but let it be remembered that very heavy
objections had been taken, upon the breaking out of
that war, to the condition now so lauded. The very
small force which England brought into the field had
been a source of astonishment and of displeasure to
her Allies. He (General Gascoigne) being on service
in one of the brigades sent out upon that occasion,
the brigade was so small, that an Austrian General
actually took it for a battalion, and asked whether all
the British battalions were of equal force? The Hon.
and gallant Member they proceeded to notice Mr.
Hume': observations upon the state of Ireland, and
contended for the necessity of maintaining such a
force as should have an eye to the northern as well as
to the southern parts of that country. He concluded
by declaring that the seeds of war existed in every
part of Europe, and that appearances were such as to
justify measures of precaution at least.
Mr. WILMOT felt himself bound to protest against
the expediency of farther military reduction. Before,
however, he stated the reasons of his dissent from
such a measure, he would make a few observations
upon what had fallen from the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen. With regard to the reduction already
effected in the Colonies, the Hon. Member had itated.
it as not exceeding 44)0 men. If the Hon. Member
meant to persist in that assertion, he (Mr. Wilmot),
could satisfy the House that a more monstrous asser-
tion had never been put forth ; for the reduction ac.
tually effected in the Colonies amounted to between
4,000 and 5,000 men—(Hear).—Upon the Estimates,
of the present year, article " Stations abroad, India
excepted," the numerical force, Officers and non-
commissioned Officers included* stood at 27,945. The
very same article, in the Estimates of last year, gave
as the number of men, 321467. N2w this reduction

tunate a result in the old colonies, they might give
Government some confidence for due management
in the new. He (Mr. Wilmot) did trust that Par-
liament would reject, and with disdain, the proposi-
tion of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen ,-(Hear).—
He did confess, that he felt annoyed when the House
was accused of having insulted the country by its
offers of reduction—(Cheers).—Mr. Burke had said;
that the age of chivalry was past; the age of calcu-
lation had succeeded it ; but he (Mr. Wilmot) really
thought that the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, in his
love for calculation, forgot sometimes the true inte-
rest, as well as the dignity of his country. He could
not think it possible that that Hon. Member wished
that England should forfeit her rank and standing
among the nations of Europe—that by reducing her
power of resistance she should invite acts of ag-
gression. Not to be prepared for defence was to in-
vite aggression ; evert in peace it became them to be
prepared for war. He felt assured, that it was not
for the honour and dignity of the country that such
reductions should take place; and he, therefote, re-
lied that the Committee would reject the propositions.
Mr. G. BENNET observed, that it now appeared
re the Government that their expenditure must be reduced, er
that the public credit must be violated. If the question ever
arose what was required by the public interests, supposing the
reduction of the expenditure would not relieve the country, he
was prepared to say that they must diminish the interest of the
Debt. But as yet the country was reduced to no suck sites-
don; the public interest did not require that they should vie-
late the public faith. He maintained that reductions might be
'made to afford the requisite relief; and he contended, that the
diminutions were practicable. As to the proceedings
raireseul, he was not surprised at them • they were the result
of bad laws badly administered. Everything had been done to
irritate and keep down that unhappy country ; nothing had been
effected to ameliorate and console that part of the United King-
' dom. Ile again submitted that 10,000 men could be spared ;
and if it were not fur the situation of Ireland, he should not be
satisfied with a reduction of less than 20,000 men—(Hear).
Captain O'GRADY urged the necessity of coercive measures
in Ireland ; the disturbances in that country could not be put
down but by force. After the law 'should have been resestab-
fished, he thought the evils of the system of Government which
prevailed in that part of the empire ought to undergo the strict-
est investigation. But although for these reasons he thought
there should be no reduction in the number of men, he was
persuaded a great saving might be made in the Staff.
Mr. WARRE thought the amount of men reduced last year
sufficient ; but in differing with his Hon. Friend, the Member
for Aberdeen, he felt nothing like " disdain;' and thought that
expression might have been spared on the other side of the House.
Lord ALTHORPE agreed with the Hon. Member for
Shrewsbury that 10,000 might be reduced with perfect safety to
the country.
Mr. CA LCRA FT was sorry to differ from his Noble Friend,
bat he saw nothing in the state of affairs at the present moment
to warrant a reduction beyond that voted last year. The Hoe.
Member for Aberdeen spoke of the want of power in the coun-
try to pay troops; but surely no man, whatever his love of re.
trenchment, could look fairly at the situation of England, and
say that she could not pay the troops that were necessary to her
security. Such an opinion was a desponding opinion—an opinion
which exaggerated the distress of the country, and in which he
(Mr. Caicraft) could not concur. The country not pay troops !
Why we had a Sinking Fund of £5,000,000. It was said—
" Apply that fund to the reduction of the taxes ;""but surely the
safety of the State was more important than the reduction of
,taxes. He by no means bound himself as to what he might do
hereafter, when Ireland should be brought into a more tranquil
state; but under existing circumstances, though loth to differ
from some of his Honourable Friend*, he could not vote for the
reduction contended for. The Honourable Member sat down
by declaring that he approved of the manner in which the re-
ductions had so far effected the maintaining a number of skele-
tons rather than a few full Regiments.
Sir HENRY HARDINGE maintained that the true prim:
ciple of redpetion was to keep up in time of peace a nursery for
the exigencies of war. The Hun. Gentleman then proceeded to
answer some of the observations of the Hon. Member for Li-
merick, and insisted upon the impolicy of weakening the Wag-
gon Train, as being one of those corps which it was most dill:
cult to restore to an efficient state. He concluded with stating
kis intention to vote against the Amendment.
Sir R. FERGUSSON was anxious, as a military man, to state
/As reasons for voting for the Amendment. Ile was not one of
tbsse who desired to make any reduction of the military force
Zryed in Ireland. On the contrary, he was of opinion that
gular force was very properly substituted for the Yeo-
manry and Volunteers: who were too often under the inflamed
of local animosities. In these times, however, when a huge
portion of the population, and in particular the agricultural in.
teresr, was reduced to the lowest ebb of distress, it was Imes-
nary to regulate our expenditure by our Income, and he was
therefore determined, upon economical grounds to support the
Amendment of the lion. Member for Aberdeen. In allusion to
what had been said during the course of the debate with rupees
to our colonies, be would observe that if our colonial possuisas
could nut be maintained without causirg great expense.te die
country, they ought to be given up altogether.
The gallery was then e.eared for a division—For•
modest, WI; for the amendment, 51; Majority, 141
A second divldou took place on Colonel Davies

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on me beteught to ride by pastels of KM* TedVadealliele/th• lilt tiro Yeats' at oply IMO Ili that GOshildsne oat imsaW to thi'llifilpsl .
kill 6 --A OM difference had aimed in the it bee ; fr. 1100161111111141 kW bahliatillisl sestina* to lie dons. of PArliament): II fedettjan ale stande. WO
of riding hi different regiments, end it eras now taken iota adeelint as a reactions When ii rkhe' then. The very ice, hesomp, er ti* lotneneion .
1117 to maple, riding-masters to give one uni- itat keetaked bt leery class is the 'Comintialty,- shit eheeld be stated to the Housei In the Old Leeward
pecies of Id *ruction to all. It Would, how- was-surely iot too great a reduction in Aitnii,4l Islands there had beeq a linked& af 370; in. Arne:
* possible Still to reduce this eepeitie lower 43vsides tbelffirectsaVing which would *lse freibthPs tic* and Honduras, 513; in North America, including
t Wits at present. reductioN'there *kid be a collateral saving by real Canada and the Bermudas, 869; at Gibreltart 524 ;
HUSSEY VIVIAN eerisund his natiantion dering the teetriviiitgant Staff which was now kept up in the New Leeward Islands. 208; di the Cape, 228; •
.1
proposed redaction, and answered several unnecessery. The increased number of troops wai at tAe Mauritius, 192; at St. Helena, 1,492; and at ' i
in the speed of Colonel Davies. Heparticularly the reason aseigpeCi for the extravagant Staff; and; Ceylon; 1,034; in New South Wales there was ad .? •
led the maintenance of the Waggon Train, and therefore, when the number of Men should be re- increase of 153 ; in Africa, SO; and in Malta and the ill
lity of the Riding Establishment, and expressed duced, the Staff, zoo, could be reduted. It was cal- lonian Islands, 625: but the saving, he repeated, upon
isfaction at the change in favoqr-of General culated that 33,0001. were required for every 1000 the whole alterations, amounted to nearly 4,200 men:
.1 on regimental half-pay. men. Every 10,000 men would, therefore, cost So much, then, for the question of reductioneffected ;
HUME began by pointing out the enrious 930,0001. There would also be a large saving in and now to the question of Further redaction pro.; ,
ament in which the gallant Officer and his Contingencies, Extraordinaries, and Home Staff.— posed. If the fltmlurable and gallant Meddier wbd •• •
stood, who last year had supported the. Mi-. Altogether the saving from a reduction of 10.000 had alluded to the state of e Cape would look td
in condemning reduction, and this year de- men would amount to 500,00 W. The Noble Lord the. character of the. population of that settlement, •
their satisfaction that such reduction had taken said the farces in the colonies were below the number and to the nature of the predatory hordes by which
What was the region on which they justified in 1792 already. Now he found a statement signed it 'was surrounded, he would scarcely think-the awn; ~. 1
tense? The Hon. Gentleman who had spoken "'Palmerston," and dated February 16, 1816, which ber of troops at.present maintained too great; With, ..1
A stated that the diminution of force in the co- stated the forces in the colonies at 13,502 men.— respect to Ceylon, considering the immense area of
was the cause which admitted of this reduction. The Noble Lord stated them now at 14,000 men. that country, its recent subjugation) and the reduce-
hat was the fact? Why, them had been almost A reduction of 10,000 could be made, and yet the tion already effected, both of regular and local force;
ninutioa of force in the colonies between this Marines, Artillery, Yeomanry, and Militia, would it was impossible to think of farther alteration with- . i
nd last, and yet our army was to be reduced be left quite effective, and the country would still out endangering the security of our possession: hid
31,000 to 68,000 men. The forces in the co- have a superior military force to 1792—(Hear).— increase of force in Malta and the lonian Islands heist
last year were 28,900, and this 27,900 ; and be- In 1817 the Noble Lord had stated before the Finance been ascribed to the operation of a certain course bf
400 men had been spared from the colonies, Committee, that by brigading the men to the number policy. The time would come, and at no very clis.
sre the Army might with safety be reduced of 800 instead of 400, as in 1792, a saving of-71,0001. cant period, when that subject would be fully and
I. Thus inconsistent were the reasons which had been made in every 8000 men. The Noble Lord openly investigated; and it would not be proper for
Ldduced to justify an adherence to Ministerial had argued that, by this change, as much had been him (Mr. Wilmot) .to introduce it into discussion
ts. The difference between the number of troops gained in expense as the additional pay had increased upon the present occasion; thus much, however, even
colonies last year and this, which amounted the expense, which was 84,0001. (or 8000 men. How now, he would say, there was no subject OR which
o 4,00 men, was to be stated is a ground for could the Noble Lord reconcile this alleged saving the Public had been more extensively deluded—he i
satisfied with reduction to the amount of with the plan of saving which he now proposed, by might add, systematically deluded—(Hear, hear!)—: . ~. i
1. He (Mr. flume) allowed that the reason for reducing the number again t 0.550? Why should Confining himself, however, to the colonies simply; :$:
now satisfied with a military establishment of not. 1000 men be the number at home, as it was he had shown the House that the calculations of the •
1 men was as good as that for being satisfied abroad, and in India ? By this means the whole Honourable Member for Aberdeen were upon a wrong I
rar with 81,000—that is, there was no reason amount of the additional Staff would be saved. Last principle; and Ire defied that Hon. Member to cow. ..
ter, in the state of the colonies or the empire. year the Staff had been 660,0001. This was a loss of tradict his statement. When it was seen that the old 1..
hole of the saving on the vote before the House 200,0001. They would lose now nearly 200,0001. more. colonies were even at a lower establishment than in. I
iO,OOO/. He (Mr. Hume) did not know how The reduction was therefore made in the most expen. the beginning of 1792—an establishment which, if
imates were made out which formed the coin. sive way. The amount of regimental guards, too, he consistent with security, was. not consistent with the i'.
I between 1817 and the present year. The supposed, was not affected by 400 men instead of 800. comfort of the troops. for complaints were heavy as
Lord's (Palmerston's) did not agree with that Therefore, in this view, the fewer Regiments there to the hardship of duty—when the House,saw so for- • f
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Kull.Mr,ll•ArliC IT _rmAnrkrlaw..ol ortA no;thar tvPro thp hPitar It woe nn Annist nftirtfill tea kraal.. tomato* 0 racial. in the old enlnnipe thPir rnioht CI;VO.

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