Star.
London, England, 1822-02-21 00:00:00

st==ls°llllllllllllllllll2axle
deco bad been pleasedto say, that Mr. Justice Best
std j
bad autborisedt a stricter punishment upon the poi- abuse
soner than thewelebce warranted. He admitted that effect
in sulsstance whut-Mr.Justice Bayley was represented regard
to hare .raid was correct. But if the Petition stated bably brin
that Mr.4ustice Best had in any way directed the Sir T. LgETHBRIDGE explained.
inflittion of arbitrary confinement upon the prisoner, for stating tbat Mr. Hunt was not submitted to soli-
be believed it to state that which was entirely false. tart
confinement, was that of a public officer con-
He had sent for a copy of the rules aod regulations netted with the jail. From what 'he understood to
signed by Mr. Baron Graham and Mr. Justice Best, have fallen from the on Member, the subject
and he could answer that they contained nothing would come before the House, and he was satisfied
against.the law of the land, and nothing but what that the charges
would not
Learned Judges—of men whose character and talents muted a prisoner to solitary confinement, con
state-
trary
were of the highest description, and who had as much to the order of a Judge, even upon a written
respect for the law, and for the rational liberties of ment
should signed " Henry
he Hunt." If it
firstamongst condemn
deen—(Clteers).—With respect to the question of the such an act—(Hear, hear).—The Petition was or-
illegality of the Manchester Meeting, and of Mr. dared to be printedORPHANS. FUND.
Hunt's conduct there, it had eventually come before
,the twerveJudges, and after hearing it argued before Sir WILLI M CUARTIS ro eat move for the a
thep-
them in a most able manner by those concerned for pointment of a Select Commi to inquire into
Mr. Hunt, with the greatest
deptatience and attention, state of the management of the City of London
they came to an unanimous ision that the Meeting Orphans' Fund. He made this motion as much for
was illegal. When he had the honour to address the the sake of the character and honour of the City as
House upon this subject, he always predicted that' for that of his own credit, which had been attacked
such would be the result if the question were sent te upon this subject. He was desirous of investigation,
the Courts of Law. But the Hon. Member for Aber
. because he was satisfied it wouldOppear that no pub-
decn, doubtless, considered himself better qualified to lic account had been ever carried on with greater
understand the law and the Constitution than those fairness than that relating to the present Fund. Since
who had spent their whole lives in studying it. He its first establishment many sums had been raised
had always understood that nothing was more neces- upon it, and these, under.the present been
rats
Lary than for l
oathed characters of the Judges of the land the Fund, would be liquidated four years sooner than
to stand uorepr—(Hear).—Therefore, if there had been contemplated when the money was origi-
was anything distinct to be charged against them, let nally borrowed. The Hon. Baronet then moved that
it be brought forward regularly and directly. But a Select Committee be appointed to investigate the
let not the Member for Aberdeen, under cover of a Pe- application of the Orphans' Fund, and the means re.
tition, traduce and calumniate the Judges in a manner sorted to for the purpose of liquidating the debt at
which, nut of that House, he should call scandalous. present charged upon it.
Mr. BENNET had received a letter from Mr. Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW was very glad that the
Hunt that morning. He was not in the habit of cor-
responding with him, and if he was, he should not be at present, had very little to do with this Fund. It
ashamed of so doing. He had received the rules and was raised principally by a tax on coals, and was too
regulations of the prison, and they were by no means often pplied to
a the local pur
said, posesthe Hon. of the Cißaty.ronet,
applicable to offences like that for which Mr. Hunt Mr. HOLME SUMNER
suffered. They were intended for felons; and it was by the present motion, had taken the business out of
the first time that a person confined for a political his (Mr. Sumner's) hand. He had last year given
misdemeanour had been subje:ted to them. He then notice of a motion on the subject, ut had several
remarked upon what he considered to be the lofty times deferred it at the request of the Hon. Barpnet
tone assumed by the Hon. and Learned Solicitor- and some members of his family. It had been his
General upon all occasions, as if he was sitting in the intention to move for
he leave to bring
he in a Bill
resent me-
chair of the Old Bailey. If persons had been accus- gulate this Fund, as conceived t p
tomed to certain manners elsewhere, they ought to nagement of it was most disgraceful. He should in-
change them when they got into that House, and en- form the House theramt, agreatmany searssinceahe Lord
deavour to suit them to the society they were in.— Mayor and Alden of London were formed i
When he charged his Hon. Friend with uttering a Court for the relief of the Orphans and Freemen
scandalous libels, he (Mr. Bennet) did not know of the City, and that they had amassed a sum of
where the Hon. and Learned Gentleman had picked £700.000, for which they couldhe not
vil ac%Vaurcont. A
Thißill
s
up such language, nor did he care ; but he was quite was said to be in the time of t Cis.
sure that it was neither fit nor proper to be used in had in consequence been passed to create a fund for
that House. The lion. Member then stated, that he replacing this sum, and for that purpose it imposed
had the highest respect for Mr. Justice Bayley, but duties, principally npbn coals hiought into the Port
he mist protest against. Members not having the ii- of London. He (Mr. Sumner) complained that this
belay of speaking their sentiments, if they believed Fund had not been duly applied, and that the Court
the Judges to be acting improperly. A Member of Aldermen, the guardians of the Fund, had con-
would less faithfully discharge his duty by remaining sternly appointed one of their own body to be the
silent than by delivering his opinion. collector of it. He admitted that the nominal salary.
Mr. LOCKHART agreed that it would be an un- was only £l5O a-year,.but this circumstance, he
warrantable act to inflict the punishment of solitary thought, rendered it the more discreditable for one I
confinement upon the prisoner. As the Honourable of the guardians of the Fund to be its collector for
Baronet, however, had denied that Mr. Hunt had so paltry a consideration. This collector was ap.
been placed in solitary confinement, he was bound to pointed under a condition that he should
pay into the
believe that that was the case. If any rules made by Chamberlain's Office, once a month, the amount of
Magistrates and sancti med by Judges could lead to the duties he should collect by virtue of his office;
that punishment, nothing could be more unconstitu- but a custom had prevailed of his retaining some of
tional, and the laws upon the point ought to be looked the balances due from it in his own hands. Originally
into and restored to their original vigour. It was his this was a small balance; but the present collector,
opinion chit no such principle as that of solitary con- the Hon. Baronet, had always, on an average, three
fiaement was recognised in our law books. At all months balance in his hands, amounting also, upon
events, it was fit that the laws in question should be an average, to £11,700; a sum not unimportant to
revised. The Petition being read, a person in the situation of the Hon. Baronet ; for,
The SOLICITOR GENERAL felt hinvelf called to a banker, a floating balance of £11,700 could not
upon to trouble the House again, particularly for the but be useful. The interest upon this sum was about
purpose of explaining the nature of the application £5BO a-year, though the whole duty of the office
made by Mr. Hunt, which seemed to have been mis- was performed by a deputy at 4:100 a-year. This
understood. Mr. Hupt made an application by letter practice was contrary not only to the Act of Perlia-
to Mr. Justice Bayley, who immediately communi- ment, but to the conditions of the Board, executed
cated it to the other Judges. The letter complained by the Collector on his taking the office. He had
that the Surgeon and Solicitor of the prisoner had spoken on this subject three years ago, to an Hon.
been excluded from seeing him. As the Court could Alderman, then a Member of that House, and had
give no judgment upon a letter, without first hearing expressed his intention to bring in a Bill on the sub-
the other narty and having the necessary affidavits, ject. By that Gentleman he was requested to give
they immediately sent an order for the admission of up his intention for that Session ; and art immediate
the Solicitor to Mr. Hunt, in order that he might ad- inquiry on the subject was promised. It was accord-
vise with him, and take the necessary proceedings. ingly brought before the Court of Aldermen ; refer-
This was the position in which the case stood with red by them to a Committee ; and the Report of that
regard to the Court of King's Bench. The Honour- Committee stated the mere fact of these balances
ale Member fair Shrewsbury had thought proper to being retained, but without suggesting any alteration
charge him with having used unbecoming language; in the practice. Indeed, a motion for the better ma•
not to himself, but to another Hon. Member of that nagement of the Fund had, in the Court of Alder-
House. It would be remembered, that that Hon. men, fallen to the ground 16r want of a seconder.—
Member had thought proper to state, that no judg. The subject was then brought before the Common
ment, since the time of Judge Jefferies, was more Council, it being represented to them that it deeply
infamous than that passed upon Mr. Hunt. Now, affected their interest. -
he would ask whether it was unbecoming in him to Sir WILLIAM CURTIS here rose to order. The
describe such language as being grossly libellous ? Common Council he said had no more to do with the
If the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury thought that he subject than the Hon. Member had with the affairs
was to form his manners or his language to suit his of France.
view of a case, he was never more mistaken. He Mr. SUMNER said it was obvious that the Com-
begged the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury to under- mon Council had something to do with the subject ;
stand, that whenever he had occasion to speak of him for the City Lands were pledged to make good the
or his acts, ire should be ready to justify his language Fund, in case the duties imposed should prove- insuf-
there, or in any other place. ficient for the purpose. He was awate that the sub-
The SPEAKER rose to order. The House would jest Was not agreeable to the Honourable Baronet,
see, notwithstanding the mysterimis language of the but he must be content to hear it discussed. The
Hon. and Learned Member, what was its intended Common Council referred the matter to the Corn-
meaning. Nothing could be more injurious to the mittee for General Purposes, and that Committee
freedom of debate necessary to the proceedings of had reported that gross mismanagement had taken
Parliament—(Hear, hear).—He trusted that the on. place in the application of the Fund ; and that they,
and Learned Member would be the first to see the the Committee, were at a loss to conceive how the
necessity of stating, that the words he had used were Honourable Baronet could reconcile his conduct in
intended to convey no other than their literal meaning. the office of collector with his duty as a guardian
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that in the of the Fund. The Honourable Member proceeded
language he had used, he had no intention but to jus- to read a part of the Report, containing a message to
tify himself again,t the charge which had been made. this effect, when
Mr. HUME said, that the assertion of the Hon. Sir WILLIAM CURTIS again rese to order, and
Baronet, that Mr. Hunt had not been in solitary con- submitted that the Hon. Member had no right to read
finement, was not sufficient authority for the House a paper reflecting upon the conduct of a ember of
to go upon, unless the Hon. Baronet put it in pos- that House.
lessron of the source of his information. The Hon. The SPEAKER said, the paper in question did
and. Learned Gentleman opposite (the Solicitor-Ge- not refer to the conduct of the Honourable Baronet
' done that which he often did—he had em- as a Member of that House. It spoke of the collector
se instead of argument. He would re- of the Orphans Fund. The Honourable Baronet had
m not to resort to such means. Let not misapprehended the mule respecting the practice of
la brief authority assume that dictatorial the House, It was competent for any Member, upon

Committee appointed fOr t'be purpose.
declared the etistence of the same
have been since reported to exist ; it
system of abuse and mismanaee.
petitions of 1795, of 1819, of 1820,
ing the continuance and increase of
..-vances. she Courts of Law could afford
e petitioners no relief: the Judges declared that
they had no jurisdiction. But perhaps it tnieht be
tended that they should be content with the re.
ledy which the Learned Lord had in view. And
sihat,did they suppose that remedy to he? Why, it
was to affcird.a remedy by law-suitl—(l-kar,
That was the object of the Bill which was in theca*.
templition of the Learned Lord's predecessors, and
which, he supposed, would be followed up by the
Learned Lord. AB' the grievances of which the pe.
titioners complained were to be classed together, ant
were to have-one and the same remedy ; namely, that
the petitioners might be enabled to go to law with
the Magistrates and the Burghs. The next point to•
which he would come, and to which he begged tkr
call their attention, was more important than any
point which he had yet urged—nwee important than
the opinion of the Noble Lord and the Learned Lard.
Before the third Report, to which he had before al-
luded, was presented, this teen Magistrates of those
Burghs, after retiring, agreed that the evil of self-
election, which abuse prevailed to such extent, re-
quired redress and alteration. Thirty of the Burghs
also came to a resolution, that the anuses and robs_
management were so gross, that the evils resultins:
from them could not he prevented nor teclresse4
without destroying the system of self-election. That
was the opinion of about thirty of the Burghs. Ths
Noble Lord (Archibald Iltr.nilten) then referred to
the Reports of the Committees, and read everal
extracts, and dwelt patticularly on the rerision cf
the Committee reipecting the Burgh of Aberdeen.
That Burgh had (lethal ed itself bankrupt, and exhi-
bited a debt of moo r.nly. whsn they actua • owed
a sum of between 1.:130,C00 and 4140,000. 0 ing so
large a sum, the Magistrates and Office, s ex ibited
to the Burgesses, at their annual meeting enly a debt
of £6OOO. .Nothing could be more simple, or even
ridiculous, than to pretend to enact a law which
would provide a remedy for those and such evil', by
enabling the parties to institnte a law-suit. Tire,Ma-
gistrates, whom he stated before to agree in opinioa
as to the abuse practised, came to a resolution that the
evil lay not with individuals, but was in the ystem.
That was quite conclusive on the point at is,ue be-
tween hint elt and the Learned Lord. For these rea-
sons
he protested againq the remedy which was
is -
tended by the Learned Lord against the evils. and ire
would ask the House to go with him into a Commit-
tee to consider the ditreient Report, made by their
orders. He would beg the attention of the I-louse to
the Report itself, for, if they attended to that, they
would never be prevailed on to agree with the
Learned Lord in the remedy which the Learned Lord
meant to propose. The Noble Lord then read ex-
tracts from the evidence taken bet ot e tie Committee,
which sheaved the fraudulent concealment of the
debts of the Burghs by the office, s, and which went
to chew hat the fhirgesses had no shale in the ma-
nagement of the corporate business, and hat the
books and accounts were not accessible to them. He
then adverted again to the declaration of the Magis-
trates themselves, after they had recited fus. oifce.
They declared the s) stem of election to iadically
defective, and that it had a tendency_t! ari oitutte.pre-
ference.- They, therefore, were, of opinion thii some
change ought to be made. The bankruptcy of a
Burgh did not only injare itself, but all the charities
and institutions were also involved in the liankruptcy,
inasmuch as the Burgh had their money. What re-
medy, then, could those I:ave by being enabled to ga
to law ? The Repot t of 1519, in the fifth page, clas-
sified the sum total of all the Petitions, and set forth
eight distinct allegations. In what way di.i
the
Learned Lord mean to dispose of the Reports which
had been presented to the House? Was no notice to
be taken of thiSse Reports ? A Bill to enable the
parties to•go to law was the sole redress pioposeJ.—
He hoped the House would never consent to that
measure. Much difference of opinion prevailed in
the Committee w hich reported last year, nor did they
do ju-tice to the Petitioners. They refused to take
parole evidence when he offered it, and reported soon
after. They spent the first month in altercation with
one another*, and wasted the last month in contend-
ing about their Resolutions. They executed their
commission by. giving their opinions in hostility to
one another. He contended that the Committee of
last year had executed their duty badly, but evcu so
they were obliged to come to some conclusion. The
eight allegations were substantiated by the evidence,
and the Committees had supported their case. When
it appeared by the Repot is that every species of abuse
prevailed, he hoped the House would not hesitate in
assenting to his motion. He wished to be under-
stood as saying, that the abuse of which he com-
plained attached to the system, and not to indivi-
duals. It was not of the persons he complained, bat
of the evils inherent in the system. He was far from
maintaining that all the Burghs were equally cor-
rupt. He hoped the House would forgive him if he
mentioned some of the allegations of the Petitioners.
The first allegation was the system of sell-election,
where those in office appointed the persons who were
to succeed them, and thus they continued the places
in their own families. The second ailegathn was the
want of due Representation. The third was the want
of care in the management of their Revenue. He
begged to assure the House that he had no i et sonal
trust in this business, except that he was connected
with that country, and that he was employed by the
Petitioners to bring the subject before the House. He
was in despair of doing any good in opposition to his
Majesty's Ministers. This was, perhaps, the last time
which he would concern himself on it, and he was
anxious to make a trial for the Petitioners. There
was not a crime which one could mention that was
not to be found in the Reports, whether of flaud,
abuse, corruption, commission, or omission. The
abuse was of long standing, and forty years esta-
blished those abuses into a custom, which put the
lows into a state of desuetude. The exactions were
trftt, and the money did not find its way into the
[funds of he society. He believed the investigation
which had already taken place had done some good.
The Noble Lord
_then adverted to the case of the
Burgh of Cupar, in the Council of which seats were
bought and sold. The Committee, of which he was
one, declared, that they would have no hesitation in

eves now; . Honourable Baronet . two.—
nese practices,' (Mr. Sumner) contended, pro-
longed the continuance of the duty imposed upon.
coals, and displayed a shameful system of jobbing.
When he considered the courtesy he had :hewn
the Honourable Baronet, by postponing his own mo,
tion, he could not but think that the Hon. Baronet
had neglected to shevihim a similar courtesy, for he
had only heard of the Ilonourable Baronet's notice
of motion the night before last. He of course did
not oppose the appointment of a Committee, but be
snspected that if the Honourable Bamnet could get
a Committee of his own he would be better pleased.
He thought no Alderman ought to be upon the Com.
mittee, but that it should be composed principally
of the Members of the Home Counties, whose Con•
stituents were the chief sufferers by the duty in question.
Sir WILLIAM CURTIS disclaimed any wish to
shew a want of courtesy to the Honourable Member,
whom he had often. requested to bring the subject
forward. He pledged his honour and character upon
the result of the Inquiry.—The question being put,
Mr. HOLM E SUMNER moved an' amendment,
which, after resolving the appointment of the Select
Committee, declared that they should be directed
to inquire what steps had been taken towards ea-
tinguishing the debt upon the Fund, and to state to
the House whether, upon the payment of that debt,
it would he advisable for other persons to have a
share in the management of the Fund besides the
Lord Mayor and Aldermen.
Mr. HUME wished to know who were the" other'
persons" alluded to in the amendment of the Hon.'
Member. He presumed they must mean the Mem-
bers of the Ilou,e of Commons.
Mr. HOLME SUMNER said that was the mean-
ing he had intended to be put upon the words.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, but there
not being forty Nlembets to form a House for di-
viding, the original motion was agreed to.

neral) had don
played abuse
commend him
men clothed

ghich to ill 1 • them: I.etthellottouraide eeattllfOtieaefote the House, to sage the OSSA Willem by a COMMiI
• .' ^ , ~,,,
martial Gbn an not aappeelkihat by using hie staout to or dissent &mit. is,: 1..
11110 - Mitt Report decb
insfead of at mar., he , mat 'produce the . BIOZHOLME SUNIMI, con6nueL• This conduct irletrances which ha
he Wended, e'er there or opt of &ors. With * teas directly. contrary to ilia conditien cf the COl4 19oneted. the same
dto the subject of the Petitiolt, be should pro. lector's Road. Latterly a new ;condition had bees ment•!They had pe
bring it before the House at an early period. framed, the language of which tippiared to legalize rand VBl, declariN
T. LETHBRIDGE explained. His authority. the retaining in head of one month's balance ; but those grievances.
- -- -- __-...... —. ...t.;th.,i te, um. even now, the Honopsubla Baronet retained two, the petitioners no i
• ------2.1 ....._ they had no iurildii