Star.
London, England, 1831-02-12 00:00:00

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upon these three classes any man, considering the state of
the country, will be of opinion we ought to act, if we wish to
reduce taxation for the improvement of the state of the coun-
try. Having stated these as the general views on which I
mean to make the financial statement, I should not do justice
to the honourable member opposite for the Queen's County
(Sir H. Parnell) if I did not acknowledge that I have taken
a great deal of my statement from his calculation. I shall
now first enumerate the taxes I mean to reduce, and then

state the amount by which the e revenue will be reduced by
taking them off. In the first class the first tax which by its
amount does not produce so much as it ought, I clearly
think is tobacco. On looking through the receipts of the
tobacco-tax, the house will find it has varied in a most ex-
traordinary manner, exactly according to the increase or di-
minution of duty upon it. I propose to make a considerable
reduction in the tax upon this article. It is not only
that by making this reduction the revenue will suffer but
very little, in comparison to the relief that will be afforded,
but it will have the effect pretty nearly (indeed as far as my
information goes, entirely) of putting a stop to smuggling.
Groat relief will be afforded by this reduction, not only to
England, but particularly to Ireland, where the article is
consumed to a great extent by almost all the lower classes
of society.—l propose then to reduce the duty on raw to-
bacco, which is 3s. to Is. 6d; and the duty upon manufac-
tured tobacco, which is 98. to 4s 6d.—(Hear, hear.) Be-
fore I go farther, I may just advert to a motion of mine,
which is before the House, respecting the growth of tobacco
in Ireland. Ido not mean actually to prohibit the growth
of tobacco in Ireland ; but I do not mean to afford it any

peculiar protection ; but to subject it to the same duty as
tobacco imForted.—(Hear, hear.) Now, Sir, there is ano-
ther tax which I must confess I have always strongly ob-

jected to, though it does not immediately press on the in-
dustry of the labouring classes, yet a tax which presses a
good deal on the diffusion of knowledge. I refer to the
Stamp Duties on Newspapers, and the duty on Advertise-
' mints. I propose, Sir, with reference to the tax on News-
papers, which now is 4d. with a discount of 20 per cent. to
reduce that duty to 2d. without any discount With refe-
rence, Sir, to advertisements, the duty on which at present
is 3s. 6d. I propose to reduce that as follows : On every
advertisement not exceeding ten lines, I propose that one
shilling duty be paid ; above ten lines, a duty of hali-a-
-crown.—(Hear.)—l now come, Sir, to speak on those
taxes that press considerably on the lower classes ; and the
first tax to which I have to call attention is, the duty on
sea-borne coal.—(lmmense cheers.) This, Sir, is a tax
that bears directly on the labouring classes, by increasing
the expense of their fuel, and it presses in a much greater
degree on the growth of manufacture. In considering this
tax we must look to it as affecting England and Ireland,
and I trust that in taking off this tax, I shall not be con-
sidered as having placed out of view the interests of Ireland.
I intend, Sir, to take off the whole of this tax. The House
will see by this, and what I have further to say, that I have
considered those taxes which press on the lower classes and
the manufucturing interest. I shall now refer to a tax which
produces far less revenue than what it takes out of the
pockets of the people. I refer to the tax on tallow candles.
This tax I also propose to repeal altogether, which, beadss
the relief it will afford in diminution of price, will also be
felt as a great convenience in the country by enabling per-
sons to make their own candles. The next tax is one that
also contains every objection which can possibly attach to
any tax ; I refer to the tax on printed calicoes. This caused
the collection of two millions on the productive interests
it the country, while the article of which it is composed only
produces 500,0001. This, sir, is a tax affecting that parti-
cular class to which I have been referring. It is consumed
by the poorer classes, and I have no doubt the house will
think with me that this is a tax which ought to be taken of.
(Cheers.) Another tax to which I have applied myself
with great attention, as it is a tax on productive inclastry.
Is the tax upon glees ; (Hear)—and I doubt not when this
article is removed from the trammels of the excise, that'
the manufactory of an article so important will go on with
prosperity when combined with a reduction of the taxes ea
sea-borne coals. In this case, the manufacturer must pay
duty on the whole body of the article he manufactured,
whereas, when he has any thing ornamental to produce he
must cut away a great deal of that commodity on which be
has paid duty. These, sir, are the taxes that include the,
redactions. There are several small taxes—about 163 1 be-
lieve—which do not produce above 2,0001. those will be
taken off. Now, sir, I shall first state the amount, as it
would appear, of the money that has been received on 1
these taxes. Upon the first tax which I have the honour to
call the attention of the house to, namely, the tax on tobacco,
there has been received two millions, eight hundred thousand
pounds. The tax on newspapers is four hundred thousand
pounds—that would be reduced to two hundred and eighty-
four thousand pounds, and the tax on advertisements would
be reduced one hundred and fifty thousand pounds. The
tax on coals amounts to eight hundred and thirty thousand
pounds. The tax on tallow candles produces two hundred and
twenty thousand pounds. This, sir, will make in the whole
a reduction of taxation, in the relief of the people, of four
millions and eighty thousand pounds. [This amount
the hon. member afterwards corrected.] I now come, Sir,
to where I shall state the mode in which this deficiency in
the revenue will be provided for. In endeavouring to
provide for this I have been anxious to pursue a course that
would not interfere with the productive industry of the
country. The first tax which 1 propose to increase in lieu
of the taxes which I have taken off (and I trust in pursuing
the course which I intend to take will be the means of di-
minishing the price of the article to which I am going to
refer) is wine. At the present time, French wine pays a
duty of 79.6 d. per gallon ; other wines 4s. 10d. and Cape
wine 2s. sd. Now, I propose to equalize the whole of this
duty at ss. 6d. Although by this means there will be a
considerable rise in the duty on Cape, yet, I believe, gen-
tlemen are aware that this is a wine of which the consump-
tion is but small. The consumption of wine in consequence
Of this tax will not be diminished, and I consider that the
Oak of this duty of ss. 6d. will give about 1,140,8001. the
Present receipt was 1,585,0001. giving an increase of
55,0001. Sir, in the estimates of the duties which I
propose to repeal. I forgot to state what would be the dimi-
nution of the revenue by the adoption of that course. The re-
duction on the tobacco tax will be about eight hundred thou-
-4 pounds. The reduction on newspapers will be about
100,0001. That on coals will be about 830,0001. That on
candles will not be a reduction of 420,0001. for this reason-1
I have had a great many communications from different
quarters on all taxes, and I have had a strong representa-
tion made to me by the manufacturers of candles that I
should not take off the duty upon them till the 10th day of
October, because they have stated to me that they take in
their stock of candles in the early part of the year, on
which they have paid duty, and on which they would be
entitled to no reduction. This tax, therefore, Ide not pro-
pose to repeal until the 10th of October. The reduction,
therefore, upon this, I shall calculate at 200,0001. The re-
duction on printed cotton will be about 500,0001. On glees
600,0001. and the reduction on the other taxes to which I
have before referred, about 60,000. So that there will be a
reduction of upwards of 3,170,0001. not 4,080,0001. pre-
viously mentioned. Before I digressed, I was on the slum-
litiOn on the duty on winos, by that I expect to gain about
240,0001. The neat tax is of a similar nature. It is a tax

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which I meet etremmsedy advocated several years ado on the
committee of forst. trade. I have always thought it a tax
that ought to be increased. I refer, Sir, to the tax on tim-
ber. At the propene moment the tax stands thus. On Eu-
ropean timber there is at. the present moment a tax
of 55. per load. On Canadian timber 10s. 1 propose to
make both 10s. This, sir, %%ill increase the revenue by
about five hundred thousand pounds. I should be sorry to
do any thing that would be hurtful to any of the staple ma-
nufactures of this country or its dependencies. But lam
quite convinced, on reflection, that the measure which 1 now
intend to propose will certainly not have that effect. 1 in-
tend, however, to propose that a tax of one penny a pound
shall be laid on raw cotton imported into this country, and
a drawback also of one penny on all cotton goods exported.
This will leave an amount of taxation of 497,0001. The
next tax I intend to alter, and from which I expect consi-
derable revenue, is the tax on the exportation of coals. As
the tax at present stands on that article, it is 17s. 6d. upon
large coals, and 4s. on small. Now, what I propose is, to
equalize this, by imposing a tax of 10a. on all coal exported.
I expect, sir, a revenue from this to the amount of 100,0001.
The next tax, sir, which I propose will be on steam-boat
passengers—(Hear and laughter). The tax that I mean to
lay on is for passengers under twenty miles Is. a head ;
from twenty to thirty miles, 2s ; and front thirty miles and
upwards, 2s. 6d. This tax, sir, I expect, will produce
one hundred thousand pounds annually. I cannot see
what forcible objection there can be to this tux. I have
consulted a gentleman whom I consider a good author-rt.
on this subject (Mr. Deane, of the Custom House), and
he considered there would be no difficulty in collecting it—
neither does he see any objection to it. I now have to take
another view on a different point, I allude to actions on the
sale of all landed property. I cannot see the proi'riety that
there should be, as at present, a less tax on the sale of s.uall
estates than there is on larger ones ; 1 therefore intend to
lay a tax of one half per cent. on the transfer of all landed
property. (Hear, hear, hear.) Ido not see why th... higher
classes should not be taxed to the full extent of all others,
neither do I see why the transfer of one kind of property
should be taxed and not another : I therefore propose a simi-
lar tax on all sales of the public funds. (Hear, and loud
cheers.) The tax that I mean to propose is ten shillings
upon every hundred pounds bona fide transfer stock.—
(Hear, hear.) But, sir, it is not my intention to tax the
transfer of stock, where it is only done for the purpose of
giving security to raise a loan of money. lam aware, of the
delicacy and difficulty attending the subject, but I do not think
that there are any disadvantages equal to the benefit that will
be derived, neither can I see for one moment that the house
arming to this proposition will affect the public credit, but
I do think they will give general relief. Neither do I
think, as I before said, that it is any infraction of the public
faith consistent with the advantages that it would certainly
bring to the country. It may be said, Sir, that this is only
a beginning, but we have the security that we lay the
same tax on land as we do on the funds. We do not tax
land to the exclusion of the funds, or the funds to the
exclusion of the land ; on transfers of all descriptions of
property the same tax will be levied. The house will bear
in mind that I do not propose to tax the transfer of Stock,
when it is only transferred as a security for a loan of money.
If I did, it would be a great inconvenience to the commer-
cial world. I therefore give the privilege of exception in such
cases. It now, Sir, becomes me to state what I expect to derive
from these taxes. From the tax on the transfer of landed and
funded property, I calculate will be derived a sum of
1,200,0001. From the tax on transfer stock about 800,0001.
and from land somewhat under 500,0001. From the total
amount of taxes that 1 propose to lay on, I expect will pro-
duce a totalof 2,750,0001. Now, the revenue in the year
1830 amounted to 47,730,7001. The taxes I propose to re-
duce will amount to 3,170,0001. leaving the reduced revenue
44,560,0001. add to this the new taxes, amounting to
2,750,0001. it will then produce a revenue of 47,310,0001.
which I calculate will leave a surplus of revenue over the
expenses of the country of somewhat more than 450,0001.
In making these alterations, I have consulted many gentle-
men well versed on the subject, and their opinion coincides with
mine—that the money interest will not like the change, but
the manufacturing interest will. Now, Sir, I consider this
the greatest recommendation my plan could have. (Hear,
hear.) I consider that the taking off the taxes off cotton,
coals, and glass, will very much increase the consumption
of those articles. It may be thought a bold experiment;
but in my conscience I believe it will meet the interests of
all, and 1 believe that the plan will succeed. At all events
1 have been guided with a wish for the prosperity and wel-
fare of the country. He concluded by moving a resolution
for the granting of a supply.
Mr. GOULBURN said, he rose to address the house under cir-
cumstances of extreme difficulty, on $ subject which branched out,
in different heads, and in one part contained &departure from principle,
li,ch he had never expected to bear in that house. Hs lamented to hear
the noble lord draw a distinction between the moneyed interest and the ma.
nufacturing interest, which it had been the object of parliament to unite.
He should first advert to the proposed duty on the funds. It was al.
ways the glory of the government and the house to keep inviolate the
contracts made with individuals who lent money to the public. Whew
the country was struggling for existence it kept faith with the pubic cre-
ditor; it was reserved fur the present time for $ minister of the Crown
to propose to violate those contracts. He believed the noble lord was not
aware of the full extent of the contract, or he would have stated it to the
house.—.[Lord ALTIIOIIIIP said, lie had the passage before him, but had
overlooked it, or be should have read it.)--The terms of the cent act by
which the money was exempted from tax was repeated in every contract.
This, he admitted, did not prevent the income tax ; but the Act stated,
that no stamp duty should be charged on any transfer of the funds, net-
withstanding any Acts of Parliament to the contrary. Could any thing
be more binding ? The fundbolder was nodded to the full bentfit of
his contract. The measure was a violation of faith, and unjust, and
would be equally injurious in its effects. Funded property was trans.
fined from hand to hand with the greatest rapidity, which increased ha
Wee, and made it a source of prosperity ; and would not the tax hum.
Owe with the facility essential to commercial transactions? (Hear, bear.)
Raw would It operate on Institutions which the house had encouraged ?
The whole proceeds of the savings banks were lodged in the public
lima; and there were four or five sales affecting individuals in dress
blob lore year. The effect of the tax must be completely to destroy
them histkatices. It would also affect those who lodged larger sums
is the hots he limited times. He thought those classes would be mere
inkwell by this tax, than they would be benefittcd by all the noble
lad's reduction. He implored the noble lord not to violate the public
contracts, which had made our funds the security not only of this bat of
all foreign countries. How must such a tax prevent the lodgment a
foreign money in our funds. The noble lord proposed that we simuld
maninenee the yew with no more thou a probable surplus of 460,0001,
sod this all uncertain. When he had eared as estimate which left
but a certain surplus of 1,600,000, the hem amber fee Cannelton ole.
Jewell to its smallness, though there yes to be a probable addido• tint
weal raise it to 3,000,0001. The least hikes is the adds lord's plea
mesh' leave the oramisy with a deadest income at she seed et the year,
mid compel the preernment to raise money by Ikedesepar BUM. He
was cooldoot the hue. member for Calibres would urge die pale
lard to provide for a larger surplus. It was hopostibls at passed to
norm lute all the details of the sable lord's pleas bet he Amish' doe
wee some immeistmicy. The noble lord reduced the duty es pawed
ammo, but be immisul a duty se all seam Wham ha pespand
relieve the industry of the people, it was ger sessistest to beemees she
- on that disbar whisk wee used* hem bog:Mos e what she mob
plied is slam they would lose M timber. Re would lowest die holm
to reed the ociatreits 'Peered into with the petals miller beers they

• 1 •

wild consent to a ireasure by which their interests would be materially
&fleeted.— ( Hear, hear.)
Mr. WARD said he was taken by surprise, that he was unable to
suppress his feelings, but he should ever resist any attack on the pub-
lic creditor. The noble lord's measure was the boldest he had ever
heard. That when Europe was convulsed he should be content with a
surplus of 480,0001. was most surprising. Keen if peace was certain
he thought there should be considerable surplus. This was the opi-
nion of Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox, and the house had come to a resolution
in 1789, that a surplus of 5,000,0001. was necessary; subsequently it
was reduced to 3.000.11001. which was nearly the amount last year. It
was for the benefit of the country to have a surplus income; and he
greatly lamented that the noble lord should hold a contrary opinion.
He thought the fundholders should be allowed tepresentatives in that
house for the protection of property ; he should for ever oppose any at.
tack on their property.
Mr Alderman W a ITH 111 AN said he could sot approve of all the
Goble lord's plan of finance. The trade with Canada was most Inver-
tant ; the interest of the colony should not be sacrificed as was proposed
by the increase of duty on Canada timber. The next article was wine.
Our trade with Portugal was always important, and we were now going
to sacrifice it by equalizing the duty on wine, and this for the advan-
tage of France, which took nothing from us. He thought the noble
lord was perfectly right in raking off the duty on printed calico, and in
laying a duty on cotton. The most material tax was that on the funds
and Landed Property. The tax was most unjust on both. (Hear.)
The funds were transferred many times in a day; on whom was the tax
to fall The tax on the sale of land was often a tax on distress which
compelled the sale. Why not have a tax on property ? (Hear.) He did
not oppose the tax to embarrass Government. He would be sorry to
see them displaced. There was an immense mass of property, from
ground-rents which wholly escaped taxation. Why were the absentees
not taxed ? (Hear.) Mr. Vansittart estimated the sums spent by ab-
sentees at 2,500,0001. He believed it was now doubled, and ought not
to be allowed to escape. (Hear.) The house and window taxes were
most vexatious and unequal. Mr. Pitt was convinced that two-thirds
of the value of houses in trade were owing to their being so engaged ;
and accordingly two-thirds of their value were remitted in the property
tax. He hoped the noble lord would take these taxes into considera-
tion. He defied any Government to grant .any great relief to the
people by reduction of taxation and keep faith with the public cre-
ditor, under the present system of representation. They had but one
course—that was to throw themselves on the people, and if they pe-
rished, to perish gloriously.
Mr. J. SMITH said, no person had seen the formation of the pre-
sent government with more satisfaction than himself. But he thought
one part of the noble lord's plan was ill advised, unjust, would be in-
jurious, and ought not to be persevered in. He could never agree to
violate faith with the public creditor. There was one resource to pre-
vent it, that was to tax the rich ; and he would rather see a tax of 20
per cent. laid on property than see the honour of the country tarnished.
The funds were the object of constant transfer; bankers always made
large advances on transfers in the funds ; and in the late panic, had it
not been for the exertions made by individuals at that time to grant re-
lief by raising money on the funds, ruin would extend all over Eng-
land. The noble lord had proposed to lay the tax on bona fide trans-
actions ; but how was he to ascertain the difference? He knew that at
this moment there were contracts in London for millions of stands of
arms, and millions of yards of cloth—how could any prudent man
make such a contract if he could not raise money on the funds? He
mentioned that day to the hon. member for Callington, that it was the
noble lord's intention to propose the tax he had just proposed on the
transfer of funded property. The hon. gentleman s reply was, "it can't
be true; its a stork-jobbing lie." (Hear.) He told the hon. gent. he
knew it was true, because he had it from a person who never had misin.
formed him, and who had means of knowing the intentions of ministers.
Much as he lamented the pressure of taxation caused by the funded
system, it was to that system we now owed the preservation of the
peace f Europe. He was not afraid of war ; but war could never
again be made by this country except for self-defence, or the pre.
servation of the national honour ; and these were consequences of the
funded system at which he rejoiced. If the national faith was broken
no one could tell what might be the consequences. He hoped the noble
lord would re-consider his proposal, and consult with those who were
capable of forming opinions that would deserve his consideration.—
Some might think slightingly of the monied interest : but he could
tell them that the prosperity of the monied interest was blended with
the prosperity of the country. He felt great reluctance to oppose any
measure of the present Government, but this measure he would oppose
because it was injurious to the national faith and honour, and, conse-
quently, to the hest interests of the country. (Hear.)
Mr. 3IABERLY said, he had always been against a Sinking Fund
as the best means of maintaining the credit of the country; be consi-
dered that the credit of the country was best supported by productive
taxation. He had no objection to the redemption of the debt, if that
could be erected ; but he thought the credit of the country would be
best improved, by reducing the present large amount of taxation. The
modifications of the revenue now proposed were perfectly jusdfiableoa
principle; they ought to take place, and the greatest credit was due
to the noble lord for having brought them forward fairly and gal-
lantly. (Hear, beer.) Gentlemen opposite might urge that the plans
were hazardous; but he contended that the principle of the modifica-
tions was just. and that the articles selected for the application of
such principle were judiciously chosen. (Hear, bear.) The duty on
tobacco had caused a large expenditure, to prevent smuggling ; that
outlay would be saved, and the article rendered more accessible to those
who were large consumers, the poor. The duty on coals was properly
repealed ; it was an unfair and an unjust tax. The tax on tallow
candles was judiciously reduced ; it had produced a small sum only,
while it was an article of essential use to the poor and labouring classes.
To the reduction of the duty on calicoes he thought none could
object. It produced about 2,000,0001. out of which 1,800,0001.
or 1,600,0001. was returned in drawback, leaving a balance of
400,0001. only, besides being a tax so imposed as to encourage
many frauds. The repeal of the glass duty was also good ; it
would most beneficially encourage that branch of our trade
and ingenuity. The next question was, the great and import-
ant one-..what were to be proposed in lieu of taxes reduced ?
From one proposition he must differ, that of imposing a duty sea
raw material instead of the printed article, because one was of more
easy collection than the other. As to the tax on steam-packet passen-
gers he did not object to it, because, as travellers by coaches, &c. were
taxed, be saw no reason for exempting those who were conveyed by
steam-packets. With respect to the most important change, the tax on
the transfer of property, whether landed or funded, he objected to the
principle of it ; he thought as few obstacles as possible ought to be
thrown in the way of such transfers taking place. (Hear.) Those
transfers should be free from the trammels of tax, especially transfers
in the funds. Asto the proposed tax being a violation of contract, he
disregarded that assertion. Was the income tax a violation of
contract? But he objected to the policy of it, thinking more
harm would be done by the difficulties thrown in the way of
transfers than the Government would get good by it in the way of
revenue. Though it had been suggested, he trusted it would not be
enforced ; he trusted that the house would be able to suggest some sub-
stitute for it. Had a tax been put on coals at the pit's mouth—
(War, hear, and no, no.)—and a further tax on spirits, he thought they
would be much leas objectionable and much leas, objected to. How-
ever, the propositions having been made by the ministers, not desiring
to embarrass them, be should not oppose them.
Mr. K. DOUGLAS said, he was persuaded that but one feeling
would pervade the country, when they leant the most peculiar part
of this plan ; that all would declare it to be unjust, if not
dishonest. (Hear, hear, hear.) Whatever might be the fate of the
proposition, it would have a moral reflection on the Ministers,
of which they would never get rid. (Cries of no, no.) The prin-
ciple of it was destructive of the best interests of a commercial
country like this. It bad not been mentioned whether the proposed tax
on transfers were to extend to those of savings banks, companies, &x.
He thought, if that was not explained, the statement that would
appear before the public tomorrow, would lead to the belief that such
was 'his intention. He therefore hoped that an explanation would be
given to that point. He (Mr. Keith Douglas) also objected to the
equalization or the duty on wine, a distinction ought to be made be.
twerp that imported from our own colonies from that of foreign =m-
aim He regretted that no allusion had been made by the noble lord
to the distress that existed in the West Indies. The hon. member said, he
should give the resolutions the most decided and determined opposition.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said:he should give his strongest op.
position to the proposed transfer tax. He was persuaded that the tax
would be heard with alarm and dismay. In justice to his constituents,
he could not let the present discussion pass over without offering a new
observations, arid expressing his opposition to that proposition of the
Noble Lord for laying a tax on the transfer of funded property. If the
public creditor had relied on the justice of Parliament at a tune when
they considered the reduction of the Five Per Cents to four, and the
Four per Cents to three and a-half, they then relied upon the assurance
that no alteration would be made on the funded property, and agreed to
the proposition. He was confident it would create the greatest dissatis-
faction In the City of London, and might afford a precedent for the Mi.
nister of next year, whoever he might be, to come down' to the Mau,
and lay an additional tax of one, two, or three per cent. If this tax on
the transfer of the funded property were to take place, it would have
the effect of driving capital out of this country into others, where the
Government did sot interfere.—(Hear, hear.) .He was quite lathed
with the proposition of the reduction of the duties on coals,
ittLikc.'butif the measure was to be accompanied by a tax em
of funded property, be was sure the country would much mem
that things should remain in the same state that they were at prism%
than bayonet& alteration.—(Hear.)
Sir J. WROTTESLICY did not consider that there was any ground
for the impaistion of bad faith that had been thrown on the proposed
tax es bowskes in the funds. If he thought there were any ground foe
the great as was his wish to sac tbeiwesent Govern-
ors;
meet, should withhold his support we. This was not the
AM thaw the matter had boo —lt was argued at past
length when the Income tax war pr ; and he'eontended that the
quesuse was then settled—dust the principle now wished to be urged
was broken in upon by the manse tax. Thee was no fear of the re-
sent proposition being drawn into a bed precedent.-the tax was not laid

.

upon the funds ady, lint upentspgdosjef ite. If k were as
the hide ady, them wadi the he essephised of. He
mug pot see *unite= la that mow ProPoiedsand the
plattof the ire mess. /soft flmmlidend, its utility, in the
hal bent els lea theneht hod been aufficiendy ex-
ploded by limn museaus lon Gentrille. He consider-
ed ths pearaftisea ,Mbditeis deL They were calculated to
remove thaw bogus that tined Id the way of inerensed industry ; and
that wards was mist lenias trim k was known what were the die.
transee, coantey. ye amid rte d aintesoplent these dinteeeses, and
he could tweak of them mean fe&althan he cull have done three'
months sp. when outrages woes without feeling thet they
ought to do all in their pawl to Teller* g=diellseawn. • The reduction
of the duties on candles and 'eels was meet thy, as also was
that on tobacco, it being used to ate pa% *bunk= as the weed migM
be to some. On thew hole,* emild net but 'ewe of what the nolble
lord had proposed, and he theu?bt his Loide had amply redeemed
theirlges be and his Mends had given.
SR. PEEL said It might be betters. postpone observations on the
details of the financial plans submitted to the huge, till they could be
more fully considered, because it was quite impossible, after having
only just heard them for the first time, to speak of them particularly
with the requisite accuracy. However, on some parts of the plan be
wished to make some few remarks. The professed object was a commu-
tation of Taxes. In effecting it danger might result to the revenue
without advantage to the consumer. Experience had shown, that re-
ductions of taxation had benefitted the dealers only—that no advantage
had resulted to the consumers, that, indeed, in some instance the deal-
ers, on the reduction of taxation, had by some means contrived to in-
crease the prices of articles to the-public. If, therefore, the public were
to have changes of taxation—an Increase on some articles on the ground
that there was a diminution in other taxes, and that diminution did
not take place, owing to the operations of trade, while the increase ne-
cesaarily took effect, such change would, pro tanto, amount to an in-
crease of the public burthens. He urged thus much to show that there
ought to take place the most cautious examination of the articles se-
lected for the proposed commutation of taxation. In the present case,
generally speaking, he considered the selections good for reduction of
taxation, provided the country was in a state to bear the reductions of
taxation—always assuming that these should be surplus revenue.
The repeal of the duty on ses-borne coals, he admitted, was most
beneficial. (Hear, bear, hear.) The tax was unequal; it was on
an article that was most essential to the comforts of the lower orders,
and it consequently, in many instances, caused the poor to pilfer for
fuel, which confounded the notions of right and wrong, and generated
between the rich and the poor. On this account, as well as
because the repeal would be beneficial to trade, be approved of it, al-
ways assuming that the country could lOW reduction of taxation. As
to the tax on passengers by steam-packets, . would it not be most
injurious to the conveyances between England and Ireland in parti-
cular ?—(Hear.) It would double the cost of the passage, and, as the
tax might not allow for poverty, would it not, in many instances, act
vs a prohibition of intercourse between the two countries ? lint be this
as it might, it did appear to him, without indulging in any thing
like party spirit, that all the other matters that had passed this
Session, were of minor importance, compared with the proposed
tax on the funds--(Hear, hear). He trusted that the noble lord
would reconsider this proposition ; for he deliberately declared, with.
out indulging in any thing like party prejudice or predilections, that if
this preposition were carried. he considered it would seriously tarnish the
fair fame of this country. if the noble lord read the words of the acts,
securing interest for the money borrowed, he would see that they over
and over again guaranteed to the lenders the power of transferring their
shares without ever being exposed to any stamp duties or tax on such
transfers. How could they rail off those words ? To neglect that pro.
vision, was it not to violate the contract entered into ? If it were car-
ried, it would be adopting that which bed ever been resisted in this
country, and disturbing that principle and public faith for which this
country had been contradistinguished from all other countries. If it
were adopted,7now when there was no special pressure, would not the
public creditor say, what security was there for him
still further demands upon him in violation of the contract? atartat
might not be the consequences, if there were to arrive any difficulties
similar to those of 1797 and 1798 ? If there were to be such attacks
in time of peace, what might not be the proceeding in the event of
great difficulties occurring? In his estimation the present was not a
question of policy, but of morals. If it were to be carried, he con-
sidered that there would be an end of public faith; it the public
creditors were to be thus treated, they might as well, at once shut up
the Courts of Justice. If that were to be done, let not the Govern-
ment, nor the Courts, any longer upbraid individuals if they followed
the principle of the transaction proposed to be adopted in this use.
By adhering to public faith, they had within the last six years been
enabled to reduce the five to four per cents, and the four to three and
a half, and thus to reduce the burden of the debt to the extent of
2,600,0001. That was effected by a legitimate and honourable
course, and because the public faith had been rigidly maintained.
Had not that faith been so rigidly kept, did they think that those
reductions could have been satisfactorily effected ? He regretted that
the tax on transfer of land bad been adduced as, he must say, a pre-
text, for the proposed tax on transfers in the funds. The eases wen
decidedly dissimilar. He thought that the proposed transfer duty was
oppressive to a tremendous extent, which appeared to him not to be the
policy of this country. The conclusion after all brought them to this
predicament, that the poor would derive little abridgement of burden
from the general reduction of taxation. When he heard the noble lord
express that sentiment, it perfectly convinced him that he never had
contemplated any thing but which, after so much expectation, must
shake the public confidence. He would oppose most decidedly this
tax on the transfer of property.
Sir J. WROTTESLEY and Sit RORF.RT PEEL had a short
explanation.
Lord ALTHORP admitted that the Act of Parliament was as strops
against imposing a taa on the funds as it was upon transfer of pro.
wry, but he had taken the same view of it u had been taken by Mr.
Pitt ; and when the hon. member made the objection, he ought what*
recollected that fact. The noble lord contended it was but just that
when funded property has all the protection that other peopertpropertyy has in
this country, it had a right to be taxed as well as other (hear).
Hebei made a distinction in what might occur from temporary trans-
fers on mortgages; the tax should only apply to bona fide sales; and the
measures he applied that in such cases it could not be levied where the
stock on these terms, returned to the same hands. The noble lord did
not think that to reduce taxation would, under present circumstances,
so materially bring relief to the labouring classes as to adopt such
means as would bring them employment. If any reduction was to be
made in the West India taxation, it watt toreduce the establishment.—
He did not think that the contract with the public creditor would be in-
jured by the messure.—(Cries of " Question 1")
Mr. FRESHFIELD said be would not attempt to take front the
merit of the right honourable baronet who had so ably exposed the op-
pression proposed to be inflicted on the public creditor. It was iu vain
for any man to urge argument against the pristine justice that was
registered in the original Acts of Parliament. (Hear.) He had been
taken quite by surprise on this head; he had, indeed, heard a rumour
that morning of such a measure being in contemplation, and he bad
ransacked the Acts of Parliament on the subject. He contended that
the tax would act unequally.
Colonel SI BTHORPE said, that from all dist had been promised he
expected to hear of great reductions in places, and in the customs, and
other departments, but belied only heard of some sixty or so, and who
or what they were, no one knew. He had hoped to hear of the reduc-
tion of some direct taxation—such as the assessed taxes, but he had
been disappointed. The noble lord had said that there would be little
saving in money, but there would be a great saving in patronage ; but
the people of England must have something more in induction than pa-
tronage. He thought it right that persons should be made to pay for
luxuries which they could do without, and he would tether see the whole
of the duty taken off malt, than one-half of the duty off wine, fond as
he was of a glass of wine.
General GASCOYNE thought that the intentions of ministers were
good ' • but there were one or two questionss which, for information,
ought to be better known. Did the Chancellor of the Exchequer mean
a penny a pound on ;rotten only, or did he mean to put a penny addl.
tional to the now existing duty ? He (Gen. Gascoyoe) had always
thought tiktit was considered the soundest policy to have the raw ma-
terial as cheap as possible, and if the noble lord meant to abridge the
duty no printed cottons, and put it on the raw mineral,' he considered
that to be very impolitic. With regard to coals, he had not said whe-
ther the ten shillings pa ton was to apply to coals for all countries,—
either for home or abroad. Considering the anxiety that pervaded the
country, regarding the transactions of that night, he hoped that the noble
lord would give some explanation.
Lord ALTHORP rose and explained, that the duty on the printed
cottons had been repealed on account of Its improper character, the small
result which it left in the Treasury, and the liability to fraud to which
the revenue was by it exposed to ; and vindicated as the more preferable
measure the tax on the raw material. The tax on coals he also ex-
plained, that instead of the graduated scale of duty on small and Imp
coals he had applied one tax of 10s. on all, which be considered a reds&
tion. The noble lord also repeated his original statement regarding the
transfer duty.
Mr. C. GRANT said he would touch the subject but lightly
that his noble friend bad endeavoured to call into action, namely,
that description of taxation which was to bear more lightly on the
springs of industry, and to introduce another description of taxation
more wholesome. It appeared to him that it was not a question between
faith and public creditor, but it was a question of faith alone. All the
gentlemen who had stood up had said that they had been taken by sur-
prise so much, that they were unable to express s their sentiments, et it
had transpired, in the course of their speeches, that they had all bead
a rumour that such was to be the case on the previous day. He had
not yet beard any gentleman attempt to explain what was the dame*
between a tax on income and a tax on the funds. One gentleman bad
said, that Mr. Pitt had made a distinction between a tax on the funds
and a nut on income ; but he (Mr. C. Grant) would rescue Mr. Pitt's
character hem that imputation, for Mr. Pitt was always the advocate
for ppaseving faith with the public creditor, and Mr. Pitt combated the
doctrine, that a tax upon income was a breach of faith with the public
creditor. The hoc. member read a printed extract from the speech of
Mr. Pitt. It was not his province to question whether or not that was