Star.
London, England, 1822-04-02 00:00:00

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"VIN

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allowed to the fislieriesia. •Scodand, in which
of England did not participate. He had
this to the Hon. Secretary of the Treastiry,
it would be attended to.
The Petition was ode* to be printed.
AGRICULTIMAL DISTRIPM
Mr. STUART WORTLEY rose to present
Lion from the County of Linlithgow, sn
complaining of Agricultural Distress, and. praying
for relief. -There was one paragraph in the Petition
which he would bring under the consideration of the
House. The Petitioners did not pretend to find fault
with taxation, they considered it as necessary for the
support of the State—any relief which they could
receive from a partial repeal of it would be but as a
drop of water in the ocean. He would confess that
their sentiments were in unison with his own. He did
not wish to say anything harsh of the Bank of Eng-1
land; but he felt that he was bound in that House to
declare that its plans had mainly contributed to the
distress of the country, by not reducing the rate of
discount to 4 per cent. It was argued, that even if
the Bank did lower their rate of interest, their exam-
ple might not be followed throughout the cbutitry ;
but he considered it to be the duty of that body to
act on public principles, and, in particular situations,
to discount at a less rate than private individuals.
The Bank was but the servant of the State. Why
should it keep up the rate of interest higher than
any other country in Europe? In Paris it was, at
present, not 4 per cent. while our Bank Directors
persisted in retaining it at .5 per cent. He admitted
that, during the late war, the conduct of the Bank
deserved the highest encomiums—it had given every
assistance and support to our exertions; but he felt
that, at this moment, it was unintentionally adding to
the distress of the country, and injuring it to a con-
siderable extent.
Mr. MANNING said, it would be extremely diffi-
cult for him to give any accurate statement un behalf
of the Bank. As an individual Member of that
House, he would give an opinion merely his own
not an official one from that body, which he had the
honour to be connected with. He never heard so
unreasonable a charge as that of attributing the din!
tresses of the country to the Bank ; they were not-in:
strumental to it, nor had they the power to relieve
it. It was his opinion that the distress of the agricul-
tural interests was to be attributed solely to over-pro-
duction, and to the great quantity of land brought
into cultivation within the last twenty years. The
Bank had nothing to do with establishing the rate of
interest, that was merely a Parliamentary question—
it was one within the province of the Legislature
alone, and not within theirs. They had to complain
of imputations that were thrown out against them—
of a cry in which even certain official persons had
joined; but these charges were not founded in truth
or in justice. Did they not lend the entire of their
capital of 1:15,0(X/,000 to the country at 3 per cent?
The question was not sufficiently understood. If the
Bank Co morrow lowered the discount on commercial
bills, he was assured that it would not give die sli.ght-
est facility to raising money on mortgage, or in any
way give 'chef to the Gentlemen of landed property.
Any man could borrow whatever sum he wanted on
mortgage or landed security, at the rate of 4 per
cent. trom private sources. It should be recollected
that the Bank were hound by the Act of 1819, to
pay in the current coin of the kingdom for every
Bank note in circulation when demanded on the Ist
of May next. They apprehendeJ most injurious con-
sequences to themselves and to public credit, from
any attempt to force their paper into circulation at
present. He was aware that money was abundant,
there was no want of it for commercial purposes.—
Any endeavour to force down the rate of interest
would have the efFect of sending a great deal of our

capital abroad. When once vested there it was not
likely to be brought back again. It was evidently so
slice the termination of the war. He knew, within
the last week, of an instance of a sum of £300,000
being sold nut of our funds, and being vested in
foreign securities. He begged distinctly to be under-
stood that he was not giving any official explanation
on the part of the Bank, he was merely stating his
own opinion on the subject as a Member of that House.
The Bank Directors could not be influenced by the
wishes of many . individuals, but he was convinced
that, to any recommendation from the House of Com-
mons, they would..pay profound attention.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW said, that he would never
abandon the measure he had so often brought for-
ward, that of repealing the Usury Laws. He never
had heard any argument attempted on principle
against their repeal ; its opponents always defended
themselves on the ground that, at the present time,
it was inexpedient.
Mr. MANNING said, that he had been completely
mistaken: he never meant to cast the slightest reflec-
tion either upon the Hon. Gentleman or his measure.

Sir W. W. WYNN said, that he should be glad to
hear that the interest upon mortgages was reduced to
4 per cent. He objected to the heavy tax on the
transfer of mortgages.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that as he was not in the House when the Petition
before it was presented, and as he did not hear the
observations of all the speakers, he would not make
any comment upon them. He was only anxious to
answer the observation of the Lion. Bart. on his right
band (Sir W. W. Wynn). His Majesty's Government
did intend to afford that relief which the reduction of

the stamp duties on the transfer of mortgages could
give. It was his intention to !ming in a Dill, imme-
, sliately after the recess, to make the transfer of mort li
-
gages valid on the payment merely of the deed stamp,
and to repeal the stamp duties to which they had
been subject before.
Sir.T. LETHBRIDGE said, that the scheme of
lending money to the parishes was extremely futile,
and it would be inadequate to relieve the general
distress. He considered that no one could for a mo-
ment entertain the idea that the sufferings of the agri-
cultural classes were attributable to the Dank. Thel
Bank and the country were mutually indebted to
each other; and it was needless to talk of obligations
from either. The distress of the country was owing
to far different causes. The country looked with
much .interest to the Report of the Agricultural
Committee, which was soon to be presented to the
House, but he found that all, expectations from the
result of the labours of that Committee would, un-
fortunately, be disappointed.
Mt. DliNE'll: (of Wiltshire) was of opinion, that



.

to , accounts,
vent. He would state this as a dot to be qt..
cloned, whether standing in House or at a County
Meeting. ,What, he ask, must be.the situa-
tion of a country in which the cultivators of the soil
were in so deplorable a state? Had this ever before
occurred, either in England or in any other country,
of which we had any notion? He contended That
the very reverse was what the people of England had
a right to expect. With abundant resources, and
with their industry unrelated, they naturally had a
right to look for quite a different state of things.—
How dreadful must that situation be, which, if not
remedied, must convulse the whole frame of society,
and drag down the Nobility and Gentry from the
important station they occupied. For the last two
or three years, landlords were living on the capital
of their tenants ; and, wherever he turned his eyes,
he beheld nothing but ruin on every side. But, were
he called upon to state what he considered to be the
origin of the evil, he should say, that the sole cause
of it was the operation of destructive measures on the
money of the country. Had it not been for this, we
`should now be in a state of prosperity unequalled at
any former period. With respect to Essex, the county
he had the honour to represent, the agriculturists
there were in a state of distress not to be described.
On former occasions, it had devolved upon him to
present to the House several Petitions from that re-
spectable body, but now they had resolved not to
petition at all, and reigned themselves to despair,
seeing that no relief was to be found in the quarter
where they were best entitled to apply for it. How
long, he would ask, was this calamitous depression
to continue ? The evil first commenced in the year'
1797: and, as the Act then passed was a breach of
faith with all creditors, so the Act passed in 1819
was a breach of faith with all debtors—(Near, hear).
'He maintained, that the disastrous effects which re-
salted from the measures of 1819, called loudly upon
the House to take the earliest opportunity of re-
suming the consideration of the subject.
Sir E. HARVEY agreed entirely with his Honour-
ble Colleague, as to the extremely distressed state of
the agriculturists of Essex. It was very true that
they had given themselves up to despair, and he had
not this year been entrusted with any Petitions from
them. The assertion was perfectly correct, that land-
lords were living on the capital of their tenants ; and
nothing but ruin was visible in the general aspect
of their affairs.
Mr. HUSKISSON• deprecated a prolonged dis-
cussion upon subjects of such magnitude, at a time
so vety unseasonable for taking them into due consi-
deration. He was not in the House at the time the
question was first introduced, but it surprised him
exceedingly to hear that his Hon. Friend, the Mem-'
ber for Yorkshire, had attributed the distresses of the
country to the conduct of the Bank, in not reducing
their rate of interest. Ile would take another oppor-
tunity of entering more fully upon this subject ; how-
ever, he must now observe, that if the Bank of Eng-
land, in the exercise of a sound judgment, should
come to the determination of lowering the rate of in.
terest, itwould considerably relax the pressure of
which so large a portion of the community at the
present moment complained. When an Hon. Member,
a Bank Direct r, said, that the Bank lent their entire
capital of 1:13,000,000, at an interest of three per
cent. he ought to have also %cited the advantages
they derived from doing so; and if he (Mr. Huskis-
son) understood anything of what the Bank bad been
instituted for, he should say, it was not so moth for
the interest of a particular body of individuals, as for
that of the Public at large, by affording them all pos-
sible facility in their pecuniary transactions.
Mr. MONCK, without defending all the arrange-
ments of the Bank, must, however, say, that tney
had a right to make the best use they could of their
money. It appeared to him altogether absurd to say,
that to lower the interest of money would have the
effect of alleviating the existing distress. Either the
price of corn must be raised, or the amount of the
taxes must be reduced. There was nothing else that
presented itself in the shape of a rational remedy for
the evil. It must still go on, if one or the other event
did not take place; yet the Exchequer would still
grow rich in proportion as landlords became impo-
verished—(Hear, hear).
Mr. 11USKISSDN, in explanation, disclaimed all
right on the part of the House to interfere with the
regulations of the Bank, in disposing of their money,
while at the same time he reserved to himself the
right of stating, as a Member of -Parliament, what-
ever lie thought might be advantageous to the inte-
rest of the Public.

- Mr. PEAItSE contended that over-production
was the cause of the distress. With respect to the
rite of interest, it was always governed by the Funds.
• The Petition was then ordered to lie on the table.

..
K~--~~*-_

lOW

8°
.4 subject J leaseposalbie
hoped that there would be embly one feeling- upon a
question which wits more calculated than any other
to agitate the public mind. trusted the House,
would have no other object in view than how .they
could meet the question with the hest possible effect.
Mr. BENNET thought that constant and repeated
short discussions on the subject would be much bet-
ter than one regular debate, in which the Noble Mar-
quis might make a long speech, to be answered by
another long speech from somebody else. Honour-
able Members on his side of the House desired to
know what nostrum the Gentlemen up stairs had dis-
covered for the prevailing distress, and he did not
see why that information should not on the present
occasion be afforded.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY found that the
Honourable Member was opposed to a general field-
day, and preferred partial discussions; but he (the
Marquis of Londonderry) was decidedly of opinion
that the question would be best introduced by a re-
gular ritotion.
Mr. BENNET, in explanation, denied his having
used the phrase field-day."
• Mr. CALCRAFT said, it was probable that some
discussion might take place ou the subject on Wed-
nesday next; and he therefore wished to know from
the Noble Marquis if the discussion was to take place,
on the subject matter of the Report, or if he meant
to propose any measure as growing out of it?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—I mean to
propose a practical measure growing out of the Report.
Mr. TIERNEY deprecated the idea of sending
forth the Report to the country, without an under-
standing in the first instance that it was to be the
basis of iame ulterior proceeding, recommended by
the Committee. _ _

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY.—My proposi-
tion will be in consequence of such recommendation.
Lord A. HAMILTON perfectly understood why
the Noble Marquis was averse to repeated discussions
upon this subject ; for he formed one of a Ministry
that had long acted against the Agricultural Interest.
The House had the Report of the Agricultural Com-
mittee of last year, yet the Noble Marquis had not
said whether he agreed in that Report or was opposed
tq it. He WAS much surprised too, that the Chair-
man of the present Committee, who was also Chair-
man of the former one, gave no account of the Re-
port ; not giving the House to understand whether
he regarded the labours of his brethren with feelings
of despair or of hope. The usual course was to have
the Report read, or if not, that at least some account
should be given of it. The HQn. Member for Somer.
setshire had very properly described within the walls
of that House the distress as it was described outside
of them ; but he was not a little surprised at the mo-
dified tone which the Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Gooch) made use of on the subject when talking in
his place, compared with his language elsewhere. For
himself, he thought that matters were daily growing
worse, and.the iundbolders had more interest in the
success of the Report than they were aware of. It
appeared to him, that long debates were rather cal-
culated to smother the question than to bring out the
honest sentiments of Von. Members.
Mr. GOOCH said, if the Noble Lord supposed ;hat
he sat on that (the Ministerial) side of the House as
a partisan, he (Mr. Gooch) disclaimed the imputa-
tion. He had seen the Noble Lord seated on the
same side, and he would now tell him that he felt as
strongly as any other man in the House on the subject
of agricultural distress. He had not said that the
distre►s was diminished ; on the contrary, he had said
what he would now say over again, that it had con-
siderably increased.
Lord A. HAMILTON explained. He disclaimed
having applied theterm ge partisan" to his Hon. Friend.
Mr. TIERNEY desired to ask the Hon. Member
who had brought up the Report, if it met with his
concurrence or not ; for the Hon. Member, it would
be tecollected, had said that the Report of last year
was in direct oppositiOn to his views? He would now
put this categorical question to him—Did he, on the
present occasion, present a Report with which he
could say he felt satisfied?
Mr. GOOCH declined answering his question ; and
the motion for the further consideration of the Report
on Monday 22d April was then agreed to.
On the motion for its being printed, Mr. ELLICE,
in the course of a few observations, expressed his
hope that the measure, which in the course of his
official duty the Noble Marquis would have to pro-
pose, might be of a nature to satisfy the wishes of the
country.—The Report was ordered to be printed.

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408abiama in the lest Wit Witt, TO,
whelheof our menthe tootinestal pos.
East Indies, the island of Ceylon, the
Hope, &c. with which so mat am.
'triedca on by this country, to &tut the
the Navigation Laws never applied: . If
would look to our West India Cdlonier,
ho* their continerce had befit practi:
on, they would Ind that the rigid prin.
Navigation Acts was never west upon;
Avert those Colonies was at that moment at
free liberty to trade with other Colonies inother ships
as well as in British vessels. The Right. Hon. Gm-
Ileman then explained the application of the former
Acts,• particularly the Act of 1805, and the Act esta.
bhshing free ports. Another branch of cemmerci
with our Colonies relateeto the trade with the United
States. All countries were at liberty to trade with
our Colonies, and they, in return, to trade with them
and the restrictions were imposed on the intercourse
between the mother country and the colonies. During
the existence of the former and the late wars, vessels
of the United States were permitted to trade with the
Colonies. An Act had been passed, which made the
island of Bermuda. a centrepot for the trade between
our West India Colonies and the United States. That
was the great market for all the commerce bets.. eea
the United States and our Colonies. St. John's
also made a free port. He had brought these Ft:ill
under the consideration of the Committee, in m der
to shew that the principle of the Navigaticn Laws
had never been carrie.i into effect. If the rigid pain.
ciple of these Acts had been enforced, the intercourse,
which be 'hewed to have existed, could not be al-
lowed. There was nothing to prevent an American
or any other ship from bringing her cargo of c )rn,
rice, &c. to Bermuda—there was nothing in he Na.
lligation Laws which prevented that. Any foreign
ship might bring those a: titles into the free ports ti
the Colonies. Although it was not allowed by the
existing laws that an American or other,foreign ship
should come directly to Jamaica, or any other of tLe
West India islands, yet they were allowed so come
with their cargo to the island of Bern:uda, and to
have the goods carried thence to any other port. Th:lt
being the state in which the intercourse was carried
on under the existing lass s, he thought it would be
better to allow the-direct intercourse at once—(Hear).
Ville Committee looked to the nature of the trade as
it was carried on, between the Colonies, they viou..;
find that they had departed from the spirit of
Navigation Laws. The alteration, therefore, whic.l
be meant to propose,• would not effect so great a
change from the present practice as some Hon. Gen-
tlemen might have been induced to suppose. The first
part of his plan was to repeal all the separate Acts
which regulated the trade heretofore, and then to
consolidate into a system all the laws which would in
future regulate the intercourse. One of the Bills
which be intended bringing in, would apply to the
commercial intercourse between our North Amer kaa
and West Indian Colonies and the United States of
America. The other would apply to the intercourse
between the former and Europe. He meant to allow
that articles then permitted to be imported into the
ports of Great Britain, might be imported in British
or foreign ships into other ports of Europe to be
named hereafter. He would, however, have those
ships restricted and navigated as the law then re-
quired with regard to British ships. Under those re-
strictions, he would allow the importation into other
ports in Europe of such articles as it was then legal to
import into England. That art angement v. mild ap-
ply to the islands of America,. He would recommend
to have foreign ships put on the same footing with Bri-
tish ships, for the consequence of a contrary course
would be, that foreign Powers would put the same
restrictions on British vessel.. One objection might
be urged against the measure he was proposing, on the
part of our North Americas Colonies. It was not
right to overlook in that arrangement the claims of
our North American Colonies to a regard for their in-
terests. A great deal was due to the. steadiness and
fidelity of those Colonies to this country. Great con-
sideration was due to the firmness of their adherence
to the mother country, and to the similarity of their
laws and institutions. They were both governed by the
same laws, formed by the same habits, spoke the same
language, and had the same characteristic traits of feel-
ing.—lt was therefore but reasonable that they should
'be protected by imposing a certain duty on all ar-
ticles from other countries, which could be had from
those colonies. It was but reasonable' to give them
the benefit of a fair protecting duty. That duty,
however, should be settled on a moderate scale. The
object. of the old measure being to extend our foreign
trade, it would he unreasonable to increase the scale
of duties so as to annul the object which they had in
view. That was the nature of the-measure which he
meant to submit to the Committekr. *He hoped he
had shewn, by a comparison with .the former laws,
that the alteration which he was about to propose
would not effect any great change. So far from the
measure, in his opinion, being attended with any in-
jurious effect to the navigation of the country, he
was quite confident both the navigation and com-
merce of the country would prosper by it. There was
another point which it was right that Parliament
should consider. No one could see hew long the co-
lonies of Spain and Portugal would be subject to
their masters. They might cease, no matter whether
dejure or de facto, to belong to the mother countries,
and by the measure which he was going to propose,
the trade with them would be established in foreign
ships, as it would be with the Independent States of
America. The trade with the Brazils and Cuba was
I open to the whole world... It was wrong and unwise
to allow free trade with the Brazils and Cuba, &c.
but not to allow-it with the United States of America.
That was an unwise and partial mode of regulatiog
our interests with independent States. We ought fa
look to. the 'policy adopted by other States towards
their colonies, but particularly of Spain and Portugal
towards the Brazils and Cuba, the trade with which
was open to the whole world—(Hear, hear, hear).—
If they permit a more unrestricted intercourse than
formerly with their colonies, and if Great Britain ad-
hered rigidly and" pertinaciously to the system of
exclusion, and did not put her colonies on the same
footing of free intercourse, the effect would be most
injurious to the interests of those colonies. Another
point in which the question ought to be viewed, was
'that which regarded the slave trade.
greatNotwithstand-
dious
trade,
yet most temptations
countryooiy a had
ad
:iolgctohrenimnuaeny that odious
'':oust disintere:tetlly they were the first to abolish it,

. • '' -
. .. .....,
4007GovillramentAawatil:._ ale comity. - lift. MIT objected to that • , ~,,,,,/' • 'oar extensive a
'hid, those di file-per antic ' latlPPlialtritifeeducleg IftlialloWeird *ha ~iv. •, . . Egat: the wi
mentioned thetate ofintevest Or saspitties. . of the Jidie
.. ) bad fizeliftfflec eat, .•-, . ..„," . in the
and at* of the Eljalt? Fudd, and Vie coon- "rip inland. ',;-:e I. ,..
.• , • elf Good
try'received &nu its vomiter' • . minis of LOIMMeittIIT , . to, ' seercrwas ca
,bIc..WESTER considered thatitheig whose pro. able to make such arrangements wierthe :' , ' . . principle of th
.
perry was embarked in nitritn MOTO now on nonrable Baronet as would allow the present vies- again they wo
tent a Peti. the brink of ruin. He believed two-thirds of lion to have the liteeedenee, as it was one of vital and confider 1
i Scotland, the founts of the County of .7 ' if now called importance to the country. The House would see calif carried (
Id preying upon to settle their accounts, w he found Jowl. that it was expedient to go into the consideration of ciple of the is
• -_ __ ......e_ tie would state this as a fait fiat to be clues. the subject without
-- the least -possible d
elay
upon and ha
free lie Every one y
of
fng bertto