Star.
London, England, 1831-03-03 00:00:00

REPLESENTATION-lIIELAND.

Mr. JEPHSON gave notice, that after Easter be should move for
eve to bring in a Bill, to provide that all blembera on taking their
resits, should make oath that they had not been guilty, directly or indi-
rectly, of hribery and corruption, to obtain their seers. Also that all
counties in Ireland, having upwards of 300,000 inhabitants, should
Lave the nuu:`•er of representatives doubled.
Lord %V. POULETT presented a petition from Sunderland for
Parlarnentary Reform. He said he could not concur in the extensive
plan of ilerOrm that had been proposed by his Noble Friend ; but, at
•he same time, though he heartily approved of the extension of the
franchise, he could not support such entire extinction of the close
i•oroughs.
cur M. W. RIDLEY trusted that the great motion would not be
defeated by any debates on the minor points of the measure.—Petition
ordered io lie on the table.
blr. S.tNDFORD presented similar petitions from Glastonbury,
Frome, Chad. A..e.
Mr. T. ESTCOURT presented petitions from Marlborough for the
repeal of the assessed taxes and the abolition of slavery.
11r. HODGES presented petitions from Maidstone and other places
in Kent, fur parliamentary returim—Ordered to be printed
COAL TRADE, LONDON.
Mr. F. LEWI S gay.: n.,tiee, that on the 20th (we believe) he would
move for leave to brtr in a bill for the better regulation of the coal
trade in London.

Lord OSSORY presented pe:itionc from places in Kilkenny for the
abolition of tithes, repeal of the Union, ac.—Ordered to lie on the

81r W. FOLKES presented several petitions from Norfolk, &c.
for Parliamentary Reform, expressing his satisfaction at the measure
that had been proposed.
Mr. BETHEL moved for various returns respecting olive oil and
palm oil.—Accounts ordered.
Mr. BANKES presented a petition from the Trustees of the British
Museum for the coatinuation of the annual grant.—. Ordered to lie on
the table.

REFORM OF PAILLIAMiIIi
Lord J. RUSSELL (at five o'clock) moved the order of the day for
the House to proceed with the adjourned debate.
Mr. CAMPBELL, previously to the order being read, asked a

question of Lord J. Russell, which was inaudible in the gallery ; bat
in reply
Lord J. RUSSELL said, the first bill that 1 Intend to bring in is
to impseve the repress:Redo° in England and Wales. If the house
consent to that, I Aall then bring in a second bill relating to Scotland;
and afterwards a third bill, to amend the representation in Leland.—
(Cheers.)
The order of the day having been read,
Mr. HUME rose. He said—Sir, when I rose last night at the ad-
journing of the debate, I was unwilling to intrude myself at that late
hour for the purpose of prolonging it, but I am now called shortly to
state to the house my opinions on the very important question that is
submitted to the consideration of the house. 1 am anxious to do so,
because, in the course of the debate which has already taken place, I
and others entertaining opinions respecting reform which we are known
to entertain, have been alluded to decidedly by those who have spoken;
and as far as I could understand, objections have been taken by the
noble lord (Lord Leveson Gower), under the idea that it was to be a
plan calculated only to give partial relief—a plan that would only half
settle the question. Now, sir, I am bound to say, radical reformer es
I am, that the plan proposed much exceeds what I expected-4We)
I beg honourable members will hear the sentence out betas they
cheer—(Continued cheers.) I say sincerely, that with all the dispo-
sition I had to put confidence in his Majesty's ministers, I redly,
candidly declare that I was not prepared to find them come fawned
on this occasion with so manly a measure. (Immense clutering.)
I am bound to gay that no question since I have been in Parlleast
has been of more importance than that which was submitted bet night,
nor one in which every interest of the country is so 'deeply involved ;
therefore I consider the question submitted by the noble lord as re.
deeming efficiently the pledge of his Majesty's government to bring
forward a measure of reform. I have great pleasure in saying this too,
because I have already in my place in this house regretted that other
pledges of Ministers were not fulfilled ; but on that particular owe.
sion I stated that those pledges, compared with the measure of re•
form, were literally nothing—and that with reform to which the whole
country were now looking, and of which 1 have thought there nem
could be a doubt, the other measures would follow and be effected.
I am anxious to state, that 1 concur entirely in the plan submitted by
the noble lord ; not that it is a plan which. if I had the power of se.
letting and arranging, I pershaps would have submitted myself, because
in idquestion of so much importance, though the principle may he
the same, the opinions of different individuals must vary in the de.
tails—but I must submit that in whatever way you view the
question, it is one of immense difficulty—difficult, because in
the established institutions of this country, any change from the
worse to the better, must always be attended with great diffi-
culty as far as individual interest and contending parties are
concerned. It is with that view his Majesty's Ministers have Atone
wisely. (Hear, hear.) I candidly confess, when the noble lord stated
yesterday that it was not the intention of his Majesty's Ministers to in-
troduce any clause respecting altering the ..oration of Parliament or vote
by ballot, it struck me the measure was defective in that respect. But
when T came to consider the measure and important change, f Kay, when
I came to consider the immense, the important, and the efficient change
that is proposed. (Hear, and low' cheering)- -when I fine. how ac-
ceptable it will be to the public.—(loud cheers)—l think that his Ma.
jetty's Ministers have done wisely nut to encumber their present mea-
sure with those other two questions, which are separate and distinct, and
which may be brought forward at any period when they may think
proper hereafter. (Loud cheers.) 1, therefore, fully concur in the
plan, and in the mode in which it has been brought forward,
thinking that the subjects of the duration of Parliament and vote
by ballot will come on as entire subjects. The Honourable
Hart. the Member for Oxford, in a consiletaLle portion of his speech
argued that there would he no necessity for reducing the duratiot.
of parliaMent under the existing average of parliamentary duration : he
that as it may, different opinions are certainly entertained on the sub.
ject, but I think, on the whole, that the government have done very
right in postponing to a future period the discussion upon that subject,
and also the consideration of the vote by ballot. I have no hesitation
in saying my opinions on these subjects are by no means altered, hut
what do I want? I want instead of carrying such a measure of this
essential importance, finding a large portion of this house--(hear, hear)
.—certainly a much larger portion within than without, unable to make
up their minds as to the propriety and efficiency of the important ques-
tion—l would rather carry their opinions by conviction--(hear).—and by
the necessity—the demonstrable necessity of protecting voters in the
exercise or their franchise, titan by force, If I may say so. 1
therefore think the question of vote by ballot has l.een most pro-
perly left nut of consideration on the present occasion' and that
it will come forward much better after we have had a trial of the
present proposed Reform.—(Cheers.) On that account it is that
I am anxious to give every support, feeble as that support may
be, which :it is in my power to give, both in and out of this
House,'-towards carrying this great question forward. 1 say that che-
rishing all those opinions, which many Members in this House know
I have entertained. I say the plan, though perhaps not to the extent
that many might have expected it would be, it is both wise and proper
in his Majesty's Government to have brought it forward as they have
done. There are a few of the details that may be objected to, but there
is so much good, so much advantage—(heu, and cheers)—so much
advantage, 1 say, to the Crown and to the Aristocracy to be derived by
this hill—that I shall not he one to stand, in consequence of any one
of the details, forward to throw the least objection iu the way of any
part of the measure passing. Undoubtedly, in the course of the pro.
ceedings through which the measure has to pass, should suggestions
be offered to his Majesty's Government of more moderate alterations in
the details which they. may he satisfied may render the plan more effi-
cient, I think his Majesty's Ministers will act properly in adopting
those suggestions with the view of perfecting their own plan of Re-
form. %nth these statements, candidly I can assure the right bon.
gentleman that 1 have the satisfaction of stating that all those with
whom I have bad an opportunity of conversing this day are satisfied
with the measure,—( Hear, hear, hear)—and 1 find, that it has given
the most general satisfaction.—(Hear, hear, and immense cheering)--
Even many whom 1 know to be the strongest Reformers in England—
many of those I know are perfectly satisfied—(repeated cheers).ssand
say that they have the, utmost reason to be delighted. (Cheers.)—
It is the perfection and wisdom of every Government to meet the rising
wishes of the country, and to effect by degrees those changes which cir.
cumstances require gradually and properly, under the legal amhorities,
calculated to effect them, and not to risk those useful changes by suit-
stunning any thing such as has been brought forward at former times,
and in other places, having all the pretensions of entire anti infallible
wisdom. It is on hat promise that I give it my entire support. And
1 have no doubt, though many may think the qualifications for voting
are too high, yet there is too much good sense in the British community
not to feel that vast good is to be obtained by this measure, and that
though some may not immediately participate in its benefits, yet that
great advantage will result to the whole community. (Loud cheers.)
By such a measure the lowest as well us the highest must be benefitted.
—lndeed 1 should be glad to know what plan could he suggested that
would be better calculated to meet the public benefit than the one
brought forward by the noble lord. His Majesty's Government have
adopted population and property • taxation might certainly have
been made a third, and civil service a fourth claim. (Hear, hear.)
Those are the only claims any individual can have, as it appears to ow
for possessing the elective franchise. All those four it is difficult to
combine; two of them have been selected, and the two that in toy opi-
nion are the best calculated for the purpose. The two speeches that
were delivered last night on this side of the house, appeared to the to
be speeches against any kind of Reform whatever, nut against this apes
cific plan, but against any Reform whatever—(loud cheers)---and I put
to the house, and 1 pm It to the country to say whether we arc not
now in a situ.tion loudly to call for Reform. (Ilear.)—The honour.
able member then alluded to the vast numbers of petitions that had
been crowded upon the tattle of the house as a proof of the necessity ,
of Reform. He adverted likewise to the improvement which had
been stated to have taken place In Scotland of late, and he was
certain, that by the passing of the present measure, that improve-
ment would yet go to a great extent. With respect to the reduc
tion in the numbers now returned to this house, 1 must say that
it not only has my most perfect concurrence, bnt that 1 trust,
when any future reform shall take place, the proposed numbers
will be reduced, if it should be found, upon inquiry, that such
a reduction would, as I think it would, be for the public ativan-
tage. Indeed, if it were proposed to reduce the number to five hun-
dred instead of six hundred, I should not say that such a reduction
would be a detriment to the public interests; and the unfounded argu-
ments which I heard last night against that part of the proposed mea-
sure, confirmed me in the opinion which 1 have long entertained, that
the number of members in this house is inconveniently large. (Hear,
hear' and No, no.) I ask any hon. member whether he can say that
this house, as at present constituted, represents the people of Eugland,
or that it imssesses, as it ought to do, the confidence of the people ?
(Chess.) If any honourable member were to assert that it did, I
would refer hint to the petitions on tile table of this house as a
triumphant refutation of the assertion—( Hear, hear,)--to those pe.
ations, which clearly chew the wisdom of Government In coming for.
ward with a measure which will prevent the evils which, without in-
form, must inevitably take place. (Cheers.) Allusion has been made to
the change which has taken place in a neighbouring country. Now,
let me ask those Hon. Members who deplore those changes and the evils
which have arisen from them, whether they do not think that those evils
—if evils they be—l do not say they are—would not, if not avoided,
have at least been diminished, Warty timely regard foe public opinion had
been manifested in this country. I apprehend nothing from physical
force I but 1 say there is a moral force which influences and per.
vain the whole community, and the consequences of which would not

be retarded, but accelerated, by a disregard for public opinion. I say
the change of calling into the Council. of the nation the property and
number of the kingdom ; and I think his Majesty's Government have
taken the wise course, and although 1 may not perhaps be satisfied
with the extent to which they have gone, yet lam willing for the pre-
sent to give up my opinion upon subjects of a trifling moment as com-
pared with the principle of reform itself, and for one shrill do nothing
to throw impediments in the way of blinisters.—(Cheers.) Let any
man who opposes this change, consider well what may be the consequen.
co, if thisliouse should by its vote say, that it will tot give the people
of England that which is their birthright, and which has been too long
withheld, but which this measure proposes to grant. I shall not trouble
the house further than by repeating, before 1 sit down, my most cordial
assent to, and my anxiety to support the measure proposed by the
Noble Lord.—(Repesteti cheers.)
Mr. SHELLEY opposed the Bill, and considered that it would de-
stroy the Constitution. lie was of opinion that the representatives of !
the close boroughs were the only independent members in that House.
(Loud laughter, and some cheering.) He would not sanction the uis.
ftandisement f one borough—feeling persuaded that the Government
of the country could not be earthed on without the boroughs. tie was
of opinion that the Ministers did not tesire the measure to pass. They
found themselves too burdened with the responsibility of office.—
He should oppose this unwise, extravagant, and revolutionary urea-
sure.—(Cheers and laughter.)
Mr. BARING WALL said, he felt highly gratified at the speech
that had just been made by the hon. member who had just sat down.—
He was aware that the town of which he had the honour to be one of
the representatives would, by the measure proposal to be carried into
effect by the noble lord (Russel), he reduced to only one member, and
as he must, therefore, in that light he considered as only half a man,
his opinion:might be considered as of little weight at the other side of
the house. He looked with some distrust upon any measure of Parlia.
mentary Reform brought forward by the Ministers of the Crown—and,
having that distrust, he would beg leave to call the attendon of the
House and of the country to the situation in which the Government
stood. He would fearlessly say the unanimity of all the metnitera of
his Majesty's Government, of which so much had been said, had occur-
red only at the eleventh hour. (blear.) An unanimous Cabinet 1 If,
they had told him they came to tile consideration of the question with
fear and tretnbling—(immense cheering)—he would then have felt very
different towards diem, and instead of being found among their oppo-
nents lie would have felt honour by being one of their firmest friends.
The House must allow him, too, to remind them how that unanimity
was gained. It was gained by concession and compromise—(tremen.
dusts cheering) yet, under such circumstances, the measure was I
brought forward as the voice of a unanimous Cabinet. There never
was a question brought forward under the advantages of the present—
(hear, hear)—advantages almost unconstitutional—advantages which
he would only allude to, because they would be undentood.—(Hear,
hear.) A Right Honourable Baronet opposite has told the opposi-
tionists of this measure, that if they did not beware they would bring
the country to the brink of ruin.--(Hear, hear, and tremendous cheer.
ing.) He must be allowed to say, if the Cabinet were unanimous on
this question, the petitioners were not, and he would take upon himself
to say, though the return moved for by the Honourable Member for
Preston (Mr. Hunt) bud not yet been made, that there was great dis-
tinction between those petitioners who prayed for Reform, such as the
Government was at present inclined to grant, and those who prayed
for it accompanied by the ballot. He must be allowed to ask, if this
was to be considered the age of misrule? He would ask the House
whether these were times when any Member would doubt there was a
great spirit of :Reform going abroad. He would ask the House, if
this was not a period when the Parliament was strong and the Govern-
ment weak. Ile did not mean exactly the Government on the other
side of the House, but any placed under similar circumstances. lie
would ask the House if the present Government could come down to the
house and command a majority ? He would admit that them was such
difficulty in detecting abuse as to the microscopic eye of the hut. mem.
bet for Middlesex, and he wished the house to rententher the declara-
tion of the hon. member for Tamwordt. (Sir R. Peel,) that no Govern.
ment could go on unless it carried with it popular opinion. Public opi-
nion influenced the house—and even the noble member for North-
harnpton had thanked God, that the time for governing by patronage
had passed. He trusted that they would not only consider what Would
satisfy them, but what the country wanted. He, however, professed
himself to be a moderate reformer; but this measure must be kicked
out. If that could be done he should then be disposed to—(a laugh)
—consider whether something could 'not be done. But as our repre-
sentation was not one of system, he did not want any system in his re-
form. In toe present plan there was no equitable adjustment," nor
would it work as some believed. For instance, the corporation for
Portsmouth was at present Whig: pass this bill, and two junior Lords
of the Admiralty would always represent that place. As to the exten.
sion of special franchise to Mary-le-bone, what would be the conse-
quence ? Paddington, crowded as it was, would soon become clamour-
ous to have the privilege of sending members, and Hampstead would be
factious till it was represented in Parliament. (Cheers.) The noble
lord considered that his measure would finally settle the question ; was
this finally settling it ? (Cheers.) Ile,conattlered that this plan would
do any thing but finally settle the question. (Hear.) After such a
sweeping plan had been proposed, he should like to know how the
Members of any Administration were to get seats in that House ?
That was a requisite question to be answered. It was not contemplated
by this Bill--which he opposed ; he was a reformer ; hut he had now
only to do with the measure of the Government. He wished to see he
connection maintained between the democracy and aristocracy ; aid
that the King, Lords and Commons, should be all maintained ; but he
did not consider that this Bill was calculated to maintain these interests
in the light contemplated by the constitution. With respect to the
House of Lords, he considered that by the creation of so many Peers,
there had been a large 7infusion of the popular feeling into the other
House ; and that as to the clerical influence there, he considered that a
Bishop had not above one-seventh of the influence in that (louse that
his vote would have bad hi the time of Queen Anne.—(Hear, hear.)—
However, he admitted that the spirit of Reform was abroad, and it
should be their effort so to guide it as to make it contribute to the dignity
of the Throne, the stability of the institution, and the welfare of the
country.—(Loud cheers.)
Lord NEWARK was rather surprised at the observations of the
Hon. Member for Middlesex, because previously to the Let dissolution
of the Parliament he made a son of appeal to the people of England
through that house, declaring that they had the power to return a ma-
jority to that house if they had only the virtue to exercise the power.
(Hear.) There were culpable blots he admitted that ought to he con.
rested. He had not been prepared for so sweeping .a mearture. He
hoped that the bill in its progress through the house would be some-
what modified, as it embraced by far too sweeping a destruction ; but
he would rather support the bill as it was, than that the country should
have oo reform.

Lord DARLINGTON complimented the isseole lord who had
brought forward the measure, tor the clearness with which he had kid
down his plan. He entertained the most profound respect for his Ala-
jesty's government, and he had no desire to °Niue them ; but he would
not come to any rash decision. He acknowledged that public opinion
had very much altered within the last six months, since the state of
affairs in France and Belgium had become known. His lordship next
alluded to the variety of opinions that existed in she country. regarding
the nature of the reform required—but he confeased that, seeing that for
ISO years Englaud had enjoyed more of the confidence of other coun-
tries than nu other power, with her institutions as they then stood, he
could nos but dissent hunt to great an infraction as that which had
' been introduced. He admitted that on account of the peat change
which had taken place in public opinion, a reform properly modified
was really necessary ; and he did not think that the noble lord should
hare proposed to disfranchise those boroughs which he had named,
without having provided for them compensation. Many of the cnrpo.
rations, he observed, that were by the same measure to be del rived of
their existing privilege of election, hail no charge ever made against
them, and he disapproved of this pulling to pieces all corporations be-
cause it was inferred that some cases existed where the privileets
1 by corporations were abused. lie was glad that the noble
rolirl elwAlt had proposed the measure nod nut included vote by ballot
in his plan. /le was convinced that if the measure did pus entire,
the people would be placed in • worse situation than they were at
present.
Lord RBRINGTON thought that he would not he discharging his
ditty to his constituents if he did not rise and return thanks to she
noble lord who brought forward the measure, to the enlightened Cabinet
who had deputed him to propose the measure, and to their royal muter
who bath given his sanction to the measure being brought forward.—
(Cries of order. order.)
An Hon. Member from under the gallery rose to order, and appealed
to the Speaker whether or not the noble lord was not conducting him.
self contrary to the order of the house. in thus making use of his Ala.
jest 's name for the purpose of influencing.a:ilehate.
The SPEAKER replied, that the honourable member had asked
whether or not the words used by the noble lord were out of order in
making use of his Majesty's name to influence debates in that (louse?
The honourable member wascertainly right, provided be was correct iu
his data, as it was highly Improper to introduce his Majesty's name for
the purpose of influencing that House; hut it appeared to hint (the
Speaker) that such had not been the cue on the part of the noble lord.
His Majesty had the power of dismissing his Ministers from his coon.
sell, if he disapproved of their measures; and the noble lord had told
the House no more than they had known previously, that his Majesty
had that power, should he have considered that his Ministers had acted
unconstitutionally. (Hear, bear.) It was, therefore' the opinion of
the Speaker that the noble lord had been perfectly in order when be
made the allusion. (Cheering hum the Ministerial Bench.)
Lord EBRiNGTON resumed with a few remarks of exultation
on the opinion expressed by the Speaker, and repeated his acknow.
tuent of thanks due to his Majesty's Ministers tor the measure,
and he was sure that the same acknowledgment of thanks would be
re.ecbued from one end of the land to the other. The noble lord al.
luded partieuellothe speech that- bad been delivered by the bon.
member Mr rd. be (Lard Ebeingtoo) considered to be a
speech abounding with contradiction. The hon. member had ;coat-

tuenced with describing the manner in which debates were conducted
in this house, and the improprieties that were introduced in the mod,
of the discussions, and he had asked if the age of misrule had begun •
and then he instructed them by describing how debates ought to b,
conducted. The hon. member hail then proceeded to abuse refornkt,
and had sat down by declaring that he himself acknowledged the rt.
cessity of reform. With the exception of the hon. member for
fond, and the noble lord who had spoken last, none of the speakers who
had addressed the house on that side had touched upon the main pani.
culars of the noble lord's measure. But the time was now gone by shut
arguments would satisfy the people of Birmingham, and other in,
towns, that Old emu's' should hare representatives while they w,,
without representation. He (bird Eltrington) had for some time thought
that II cutting off some of the glaring abuses that that would be Putt.
dent—to pat.; off Old Sarum and Gatton. He hoped that the hoc
member who represented that place would excuse the allusion he had
made to Gatton, fur be had certainly defended, in his place, tbepti.
vilege of that borough with a spirit of chivalry that was worthy at s
better cause. (Hear, hear.) He (Lord Rbrington) did not intent; 4,
make any improper allusion to the hon. members who represented thou
places; tot it rather reflected credit on such lion. Members. a::,;
showed that the Government of the country could not be propeth
carried into effect without so many Old Serums and Gattons.—(A
laugh.) He had once been of opinion that the removal of the „.
istcnce of the representation of such places would he suflicierk;
but latterly he had changed his opinion, and he hailed with sou,.
faction§ the measure that had now emanated from Government a.
the only efficient means of remedy, anti when it passed the Houk,
as he had no doubt but that it would pass the House—that „
would gain that approbation of the public, and would restore di,
confidence of the public iu that House.—(Hear, hear, hear.) H,
would consider himself the greatest enemy to &form if he inter.
fered with the details of the measure; he would be ready to aban-
don any of his own opinions that might exist, rather than throw die.
culties in the way of the bill passing. lie had the honour to represent
a large number of constituents, and a great portion of whom were fa.
vuurable to vote by ballot, but he would not be afraid to tell them
that lie had given up his opinion on that subject, rather than to risk tht
bill not passing. Ale though, that the rejection of the Bill would widen
the bleach that, he was sot ry to say, had existed between those out
of doors and this house. The confidence of the country would be es.
tirely witlitiraon front the house. (Cries of hear, and no, no.) Gen.
tienien might say no, no ; but as an honest man, he had not ex.
pressed one word more than he believed, and he appealed to the
nouse, whether or not such being its belief, that he ought not to state
it to he house.

Lord STORBIONT did not Ilse with the In' -ntion of opposing ti:,
measure, but be would contend that time should be allowed the country
to express their approbation or disapprobation of the measure. The mild,
lord in bringing forward his measure had classed them into bigots l\'.
fanatics; he (Lord Talbot) would attach himself to that class desig.
need bigots, and lie would leave the fanatics to defend themselves untie'
their Mambrino helmets of annual parliaments and universal suffrage,
He had to object to the manner and the time at which the motion had
been brought forward. It had been told them at an early pact of Os
session, that it was to he a cabinet measure ; but the motion had been
brought forward by a noble lord who was not a member of his Majesty':
cabinet. He deprecated the system of threats and intimidation that
had been eopted by the noble Chancellor, that he would dissolve par-
liament if the bill did not pass : but he (Lord Talbot) hoped that no
member in that house would be intimidated by these threats. An her.
baronet (Sir J. Sebright) opposite, had indulged in depicting the fat.
ful consequences in the country if the bill was rejected, on the previous
evening, and had thus introduced intimidation of another description:
hut it' any member In the house would he intimated even by these
threats, he would just be as unworthy of his seat as that hom but was
of the seat be occupied on that bench opposite. (Cries of order.) WitO
regard to the time that the motion had been introduced, he ohjectei
that the noble lord should have deferred it till the public feeling
had been so excited by the events that had taken place in the sur-
rounding countries. He (Lind Talbot) filled a malium situation in
the House, in having to face the advocates of the measure, while he had
on his right hand the Achilles of Anti-reform ; and he (Lord Talbot)
danger had no hesitation in avowing himself his Patroclus. He would can.
tion the government of the of leaving an impression on the minds
of the people that Reform had been wrung -from the fears of the Rouse.
He (Lord Talbot) happened to have the honour to represent one et
those boroughs, the population of which, was under two thousand ; 'eat
it could not change in numbers because the town was surroun.led en-
tirely with a wall, but the wall had all crumbled down (laughter), and
none could vote who did not live within the walls. (A laugh.) He,
Lord Talbot, could not have discovered a name for the measure if he
had even searched all the lexicons In the language, had not the noble
lord himself supplied his measure with a name, by calling it a budge:
of reform. (Continued laughter.) The same principle should extend
to all the country. Why, then, were two members left to Tavistock
(Hear, hear, hear.) Why two to Knareshorough ? With respect tee
Scotland, it was the wish of the Government that the representation
there should he popular. Now Scotland was never intended to have a
popular representation, but only a representation of the land and of the
owners of the land. From what he knew of Scotland, the ten poen&
franchise was equal to universal suffrage. With respect to petitions.
he would contend that the r•oroch people would he more ready :o pet:.
tion against having any Parliament at all—(" Oh !") He had cwt DIM
to oppose the Bill ; he called upon Members to allow it to go forth—
(hearthat the people might be made acquainted with Its scope and
hearings. Ile was neither for running blintlfold into the measure, ncr
for blindly refusing to consider it. However, if he at present understood
it, Reform was Revolution ; Property, Spoliation ; and sooner or later
Religion would be Atheism.—(Hear.)

Sir J. IWALSH must be allowed to say that the clear and In.
urinous statement ot, the Noble Lord was sufficient to make the
scope and bearings of the measure at once understood. He con.
feased they appeared to him to involve au entire change in the
constitution, to involve not so much a Reform as a new form of
Government.—(Hear.) Without tiring the House with all his
objections, lie should say thet the one which first struck him was,
that the bill was intended to blend two principles, Loth of whi,h
appeared to him eproneous. He could not think that at the very early
period of our history to which the Noble Lord reverted, this cnuntr
enjoyed any of the blessings of liberty, nor that the institutions of out
first Henries, when the manners and customs were an different fr:nm
those of the present day, should be held up as the model from which
to copy our own. Far front the Commons being then held in esti-
mation, he believed the reason of their becoming a serarate Houk
was that the Peers disdained to bold cam o diem ion with rers,la. so
interier. The other erroneous principle was the relati..n which the No.
ble Lord contended should exist between representation and rroperty.
When it was so difficult to specify time amount of ptuperty which ga,-.
a right to the elective franchise, the question amid be only one of s-.
pediency, and whether the present system of electors did not work ..•
well as the one proposed. IVith respect to the petitions on wide!, 11..
Noble Lord had laid so much stress, they prayed for retrenchment.—
besides Reform—and considered them as subjects strictly united wit!.
each other. Now, had not the Government ea eclared that, consistently
with the welfare of the State, they could not effect a reduction of las-
&Hoe, but only a reduction of patronage ? The coostquence woe.
that either the Reform would disappoint the people by rot in•
voicing retrenchment, or if it did involve retrerchment, would he ircor.
sistent with the welfare of the State. In his opinion,-any reform with-
out retrenchment would not satisfy the expectation in which the poi+
were taught to indulge. The true mode for the members of that Iwo(
to satisfy the people was, not to sacrifice themselves, not to give way u
each fluctuating popular caprice, but to rely on the good sense and
nesty of the people, on their indulgence towards those who did the..r
duty, and to give their vote according to the dictates of their consektme..
Such, in his opinion. was the best mode of satisfying the people. H-
would go farther, and say if it were not, still it was the members' dcv.,
to consider the subject, not with reference to the will, but with reform
to the interest of the people and of their descendants. He felt that the!'
(the members) resembled a jury deciding on a case of life and tlesilt
Il'ould that jury. if addressed by a great popular clamour (tom withetr,
he justified in allowing it to sway their decision ? They were tlecidir,:.
not on the life of an individual, hut on the life and destiny of the
country. Were they not bound to decide the question upon its out,
merits alone ?

NIT.. DI ACAULEY said when he considered that every person in tha:
House had been employing his mind on the question of Reform, he had
apprehended that the plan to be proposed by the noble lord could not
meet with such general approbation even from the friends of Refore'
as it had received. He considered it a wise and noble measure for yo'-
manentlyknittlng together all orders and classes in the community.--
The plan proceeded on the wise principle that it was desirable to uni%
all:the middle classes of the people with those who now exercised
cal power without any violent change. (Hear, hear, from the (1.,70,i-
--tion.) He thought the measure proposed by Government well ei.lcu-
lated to produce that effect, to unite.all the property and intelligsree t':
the country in support of its institutions. He did not mean to .ay that
the same form of Government was suited to every country. He be-
lieved there were countries Dr which universal suffrage was good for the
people. (No, no.) If all the labourers of Raglan] were at all times
well employed.—if wages were always high—it the neecisni, of lee
were always within the reach of the labourer, however large his ,amily.
then he shank' not scruple to give universal suffrage. They had it it
America, and bs was.not prepaid to admit that the people of Engls.-:

were either morally or intellectually their inferiors. (Hear, hear.)—
But America was a new country, where land, and employment, and
food, were always abundant; but this country was differently circum-
stanced ; the labourer was often distressed, and discontent was the na-
.031 offspring of that distress. It causes men to attribute their suffer-
ers without due consideration, to those in authority, and on that ground
he objected to universal suffrage in this country; but he supported the
present measure because he was an enemy to universal suffrage and to
revolution, which it must be the effect of the present measure to pre-
, mr, (Hear, hear.) The noble lord who introduced the measure had
said, he thought most truly, that must be the effect of its adoption,
but that revolution might be the consequence of its rejection; and for
so saying he had been accused of having threatened the house. When
Lord Casdereivgh asked for the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act,
and stated the necessity of the measure, he was not accused of hay-
.ag threatened the house, and when the right honourable baronet (Sir
Robert Peel) brought in the Catholic Relief Bill, and stated the
danger to the country from longer delaying the measure, he was not
sccused of having threatened the house. (Loud and continued cheering.)
He thought niii.isters would be guilty of a great neglect of duty to
•heir sovereign and their country if they did not state in that house the
delver to the institutions of the country that they considered would
arise from the rejection of the measure.--(Hear.) He would fearlessly
Auto that he did feel alarm for the institutions of the country If this
measure, or some other for admitting the people to a share in the repte-
sentation was not speedily passed.—(Hear, hear.) He supported the
measure as a measitre of Reform ; but still more as a measure of con-
servation.—(llesr.) If the support of property and intelligence added
to the security of government, then he would ask why were large masses
of the property and intelligence of the country compelled to unite with
the multitude in opposition to the government ? Was this a time when
government could spare such allies ?—(Hear, hear.) If he had the
imaginary foteigner that had been mentioned under his care, he would
take him to that great portion of the metropolis north of Oxford-street,
and when he had shown him the streets of shop. full of wealth—
the squares, and the circle of palaces round the Rm.:eat'. Park—the
whole producing a rental greater than the rental of all Scotland pre-
vious to the Union ' • what would the stranger say when he beard
that all that wealth was unrepresented in the National Council?—
(Hear, hear.) The same was the case with other great towns abounding
with wealth and intelligence : Edinburgh and Glasgow had but a
shadow of representation.—(Hear, hear.).—The present state of the re.l
presentation was called a representation of property : it was not. The
Honourable Member fur the University of Oxford said—" Show the
the time when the representation was better." They were legislators,
and not antiquarians.—(Hear, hear.) It was their duty to make the
representation better now, because its improvement was necessary to
the preservation of the institutions of the country.—(Hear, hear.) A
Noble Lord said the borough he represented was of the same size now
as when it first returned members ; but suppose that borough had not
decayed, did the Noble Lord consider how many towns had since
come into existence and grown into greatness? (Hear, hear.) Our
ancestors legislated wisely for themselves, according to the eircum.
stances of the times in which they lived ; and we exist imitated their
wisdom when we legislated according to the altered circumstances of
the times in which we live.--(Hear, hear, hear.) The natural scale of
representation was, no doubt, often disturbed by prerogative. The
grad charter was often violated, was liberty therefore to be disregarded ?
A great change had taken place in the circumstances of the commu-
nity since the elective franchise was first exercised. Society had taken
a different form : towns have sunk Into villages—villages have grown
into towns greater than what Lqndon then was. The forms of the sys-
tem remained, but the spirit was changed—it was new wine in old
bottles—it was a new spirit with old forms. We should now chew res-
pect for our ancestors, not by doing what they did under different cir-
cumstances, but by doing as they did, under present circumstances.—
(Hear.) All history shewed that if changes were made when necessary
and required by the people, institutions were preserved ; but if not, a
struggle between the people and their rulers was the consequence.--
That struggle had taken place in ancient Rome ; in modern tunes, be-
tween the American States and this country ; and more recently, be-
tween the Government and the Catholics of Ireland • it was taking place
in Jamaica, against the aristocracy of skin ; and in ;his country etween
the middle classes and the aristocracy of mere locality.—(Hear, hear.)
The present system was called virtual representation. He was at a loos
to understand it. Was it a virtual representation of Manchester that
the representative of a close borough said no, when the people of Man-
chester said aye?—(Hear.) Who wanted to abridge the prerogative of
the Crown, or the just privileges of the Peers ? No one, except per-
haps a crazy radical ; but who was it called for a reform of the House
of Commons ?—The whole people of England.—( Great cheering.) The
people regarded the state of that house in a manner very different from
that in which they regarded the prerogative of the Crown or the privil-
eges of the Peers, while they kept within theft proper sphere.—( Hear.)
It was said this cry for reform, and discontent at the present state of
the representation, sprang from the late revolution In Prance. He
would say it had long been growing in England, and every means had
been used to lay it. All the arguments of Burke and the subtlety of
Wyndham, the coercion of I'itt and Londonderry, had been tried, and
what was the result ?—the present state of public opinion and feeling.—
The measure now proposed was associated with the rights of the people
of England ; it called into alliance with good order and Government, all
the property and intelligence of the country, and he congratulated the
Gevernment that was to stand or fall with such a reform. He would
ruler ten thousand times fall in the effort to procure such a Reform,
than attain the highest success by its opposition. ( Hear, hear.)—
The Honourable Member for Oxford said the House could not stand
ten years if the measure was agreed to, without pulling down the mo-
rarely and the aristocracy. If the honourable member could imbue
the minds of the people with that opinion, it would cause them to be-
lieve that monarchy and aristocracy were inconsistent with their good.
It he were of that opinion be would call for revolution; but he was not
of that opinion, and therefore wished for the present measure to prevent
revolution. (Hear.) The hon. member said great men had entered
Parliament by close boroughs, but that was no reason for their continu-
ance; if they preserved good institutions they would always have great
men in Parliament. Almost every hon. gentleman on the other side
alluded to the circumstance that some of the present ministers were
formerly opposed to reform. He firmly believed the country would
not place the less confidence in their measures because they showed
they could learn from experience. He wished that some of those by
whom the present measure was opposed had given proof of equal
wisdom ; that they had nut forgotten the humiliation they had en-
dured by obstinately opposing a great and necessary change till it
could he opposed no longer. He remembered having been an auditor
of the proceedings of that house in May, 11127„ which the right
'nerouraole baronet, who had just quitted office, because the Go-
vernmest was supposed too favourable to Catholic mancipation, asked
tile Government whether they intended to repeal the Test and
Corporation Acts, and to grant Catholic Emancipation, he hound them
al: up together, and declared his determined opposition to the whole.
What was the result ? They were all since supported by the right hon.
baronet himself. Reform was now the question, and for what were we
to endanger the monarchy and institutions of the country ? Was it to
till the time was come when it could neither be refused with safety
r.a granted with grace ? Were we to wait till a new ministry had sac-
e..edett to office on a cry of no reform, as a former ministry had suc-
ceeded on a cry of no popery ? Had they forgotten what followed ?
How they were obliged to concede to the Catholics when almost
rebels. what they had refused to their prayers when obedient sub.
nets ?—(llcar, hear.) If this worst of infatuation was on them, that
they could not hear with their ears, nor see with their eyes, nor
,1
tralerstatal with their hearts, the consequences might be dreadful.-1
He trusted they would hear the voice that cried, " Reform, that you
may preserve.(Great cheering.) Now, while our palaces were
affording a refuge to fugitive Royalty—now while the heart of England
was sound—in this accepted time—this day of salvation—let us take
couneel (dream:in, and save t::e multitut:e w hu ate endangered by their
passions, arid save the aristocracy, who lure ottlangereil by the abuse of
mete power. if it were said there was evil in change. let it not he for-
there was evil in discontent. it was said the system worked
• iii. Ile denied it worked well when it was regarded by the people as
cause of an theft sufferings. It Reform was not now conceded, those
whom it was resisted might repent amidst scenes of spoliation and
:..assacre, and In time dissolution of all the institutions that had been
r:a.ed and cherished by the most virtuous community of men the world
err
Lard NIAIION said he must oppose the measure, which was one of
_volution. The feeling fur Reform that was abroad was of a tempo-
,ary character, and would pass away if not excited.
Mr. HUNT said he did not hesitate to declare that the measure pro-
. oil by the noble lord went far beyond his expectations. The eloquent
who had spoken last, had declared himself the enemy of
suffrage. He had fearlessly contended for the right of
.vary titan who paid taxes to have a vote for a representative. Should
cc told that the people who fought toe battles of the country and
taxes, should have no part in the representation. He would fear.
rely say that lie spoke the voice of ntillions, and that such a Reform
t veld not give satisfaction. How were many members returned to that
;.ouse ? A: Ilchester, where he had been sent to gaol for two years
.nd six months, the electors were the very lowest of the people, but
,tot credit f r om the shopkeepers to the amount of the price of their vote,
which teas 41. The House of Commons should represent the whole
.onmons of England ; for that he had always contended. In Man.
::ester, ia 1819, when the people were assembled is meacably as they
-acre in that house, to petition for Reform, a drunken infuriated yeo-
manry charged the people., slaughtered to death fourteen, and badly
nouratid 618. He was advocating Reform then • and he was asto.
to hear time noble lord say that the house had refused to take up
question of reform because the people had not come forward. Why
:41817-18.19, the people knew as much of the manner in which that
house was constituted as they do now ; the only difference was, that
!hey then petitioned more mildly. He did not condemn the mini.
tiers ht.cause they did not go the full length of his plan of reform ;
Goth in the house and out of the house, the measure they brought for-
ward should have his support. Some hon. gent. said the ballot would
wake. men hypocrites ; but would they say that to the members of the
'ashio:ialle clubs who all voted by ballot ?—they would not, because
they would be afraid their hearts would be made cullenders. (A laugh.)
lit hatl heard nothing in favour of *Reform in that house which he
had not heard from the wavers of Lancaster twenty years ago. He

' denied that the Reformers desired revolution-4hey sought to prevent
revolution.

Lord MORPF.TH said, he should not enter into the details of the
bill. He believed the interest of his country to be deeply involved in
the issue of the question, and all who dearly loved that country were
called upon to raise their voice in support of the measure brought for-
ward by minister". it was a measure to satisfy the friends of freedom,
and not to alarm the supporters of existing institutions. It was a wise,
honest, generous, and manly measure. (Hear, hear.) We had beard
of the danger of proceeding further, but who would say it was safe
to stay where we are ? The measure deserved, and should have, his
best support.

Sir C. WETHRRELL rose, having been repeatedly called for. He
had frequently observed that members the most distinguished for talent
had been in the habit of commencing their addresses to the House by
some remark of a propitiatory character. There existed on the present
occasion a reason why he should throw himself on their kind indul-
gence, he was about to add the religious feeling of the House, because
the Noble Paymaster of the Forces had made it known to him that he
was for the last time to have the honour of addressing the Honourable
members then present. (Hear.) He stood in the unhappy predicament
of a man rising to make his last dying speech. (Laughter.) if ever
there was a desire on the part of a man in extremis to speak the last
will it was his case. (Laughter.) He might never again, according to
the noble Paymaster's logic, have the opportunity of addressing the
house, and hon. members on that account would doubtless concede the
last request of the dying member for Boroughbridge (Cheering.) To
animate his drooping mind,and resuscitate his distressed feelings although
the noble Paymaster had held outs list of proscription, he still entertained
a hope that with the good wishes of his constituents he should again repre.
sent the borough from which the noble Paymaster's list had prestunp.
tuously cashiered him. (Cheering.) The Noble Lord, for whose talents
he entertained the greatest respect, would no doubt do hint the favour
to receive to the fullest extent the dying compliment of an expiring
Member of Parliament. (Laughter.) The Hon. and Learned Mem.
her could not help thinking, that in the language of chemistry there was
an electric attraction between office and the duties of office. (Hear.)
The Noble Lord had not been six weeks in office when he issued
! an edict against 120 Members of that House who were to be ca.
sidered from their boroughs. This was something like the applies.
don of military power united against Parliament, for the purpose
of prostrating the rights of the Legislature. An honourable member
had c,onn.lained that his arguments were in danger of being improperly
used. That honourable member (Huut) had declared that the men.
sure proposed by his Majesty's Government, fur producing a change
in the representation, instead of attracting universal admiration,
would produce great agitation throughout the country. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman did himself injustice if he supposed an argument
of so much weight would be improperly handled. It would be fairly I
weighed. The speech of the hon. member for Caine should induce
the house to pause before they agreed to disfranchise boroughs.
No gentleman could state why Caine should not be disfranchised
with the other boroughs. The cabinet ministers were certainly shy
in coming forward on this occasion. No man among them rose to sup.
port the proposed measure with the zeal which others had displayed.
The hon. and learned Gentleman then called the attention of the house
to the subject more immediately before them. He was anxious to do
so, because eloquence too often ran away with accuracy, and long
speeches made a man forget what he had to do. (Cry of hear, hear.)--
Hon. Members who never said a word except hear, hear, and who
afforded no one the opportunity to reciprocate hear, hear, might call for
question ; but surely they would allow him a few minutes for the state-
ment of his opinions. The question was whether the bill of the Noble
Paymaster of the Forces, by which he cashiered Gil boroughs, and in all
168 Members, would he endured ? Whether this proceeding, which
required a name, could be received in that house? Mr. Locke said
things should he called by proper names, and therefore he should give
it the name of Corporation Robbery—one hundred and sixty-eight
Members were to be cashiered, and no longer admitted to that house.
The First Loral of the Admiralty, in support of the proposition, had
Intimated that parliament was to be dissolved, with robbery on one side
and spoliation on the other; there was to be an amputation of a most
extraordinary character. It was the more extraordinary, because the
reformers taken under the protection of the honourable member for
?reaton had never thought of cutting off the boroughs, which the noble
lord had condemned. This was not a new attempt. The present
Cabinet of .11thorp and Co. bad been preceded by the Cabinet of Crom-
well, Liiburne, and Co. That firm certainly reduced the members of
the house upon their plan. It wait the reforming plan of a radical
government, which, after the days of the Regicides, proceeded
to establish the Commonwealth of England. Such was the
model of the present plan, yet the advocates of the plan said it
was to preserve ancient institutions. It was founded on conser.
vative principles ! It was consistent with the prerogatives of the
Crown and the dignity of the House of Lords ! At the sante time it
did so happen that this conservative plan was originally adopted by
those who had voted the destruction of the monarchy and of the aristo-
cracy. If that was not the fact, let some Cabinet Minister get up and
declare whether the principles subversive of the monarchy in 1613, were
no the principles upon which the noble lord's bill was to be founded,
and whether those principles would not be equally destructive in
1831 ? He was not one who said no improvement could be made
in the legislative system of the country. He had not said they
might not amend the Election Laws—therefore gentlemen could
not predicate that himself and others thought it impossible to
Improve the Representative system. Gentleman, by the logic of
Downing-street, made it appear that all who differed from the
views of Cabinet ministers were enemies to proper reform in the defec-
tive pans of the representation. If such logic was offered at a baker's
shop, the man would call fur a Nutmeg and nail it down like bad coin.
(Loud laughter.) All that could be said was, that those on his side
the house opposed the plan, because it was no plan at all. The
question was, whether they should have an experimental Govern-
ment, radically new? Did gentlemen reflect how many experimental
Governments were aloat ? Did they recollect that the political
smithy for mew Constitutions was to be found all over Europe ? Did
they recollect that they had to make a Government for Greece, one for
Portugal, and one for Belgium ? Did gentlemen recollect what had
been doing in France, anti more especially the unsuccessful attempts in
South America. After all the efforts made in the New World to esta-
blish governments, not ore constitution had been made for any of those
States. Great Britain should not follow me example of fcreign States,
but avoid innovation and the projects of his Majesty's government. He
appealed to gentlemen whether a change in the British Constitution
would not be attended by danger to all Europe. in the tine of dis-
turbance abroad, his Majesty's Government had commenced new ex-
periments. They endeavoured to sketch out it new Constitution, asl
if the British Constitution had not been amended from time to time
by the wisdom of Parliament, and made as perfect as circumstances
would permit. (Hear, hear, hear.) At the present time when all
the S WCA of Europe evere demoralised, it was unwise, too much
to see the Government of the country trying new experiments. He had
formerly acted with Honourable 'Members on the other aide of the
litatse ; he expected his Hon. Friend, the Member for Bletchingley, to
offer a few obeervations in defence of that Borough, especially as the
Ministers had formerly opposed a motion for reform, which was mo-
derate, compared with the present measure. tlis Majesty's present
Cabinet last y ear negatived the mieor plan of reform the Lord
High Atimital on that occasion e °WO not let the ship Reform go out
of port ; but since that time the opposers of reform had become the
premoters of reform. having alluded to other topics he proceeded
to the main subject. He had said the plan of the Noble Lord was
Corporation wheezy. Members of Corporations were for ever to
be prevented front returning 108 Members to Parliament. A t.peclal
Comeasaion mad been appointed to punish torn for frame breaking.
and he asked whether there might hut be a Special Commission
to try the King's Cabinet for Corporativo robberies t— (Laughter.)
Certainly his Majesty's Ministers had given them a good specimen of
political machine breaking.—(Laughter.) He admitted that the pawn
of Parliament was omnipotent, but it had been held that certain acts
done by Parliament would be as unjust as if done by the Crown. The
history of Parliament proved that the preservation of chartered rights
had always been held as sacred in Parliament as in Courts of Law.
He should take the liberty of stating on this occasion, that Ministers
did not openly support their Bill, but lei it to their nations. The
Noble Paymaster was the representative of the Cabinet. There was
no instance an which Parliament had committed the sacrilegious out-
rage contemplated on that occasion. Parliament had 'fleece dared to I
dishanchise Corporations without delinquency on the part of those

Corporations. The only Instance of the sort was to be found in the
reign of Richard the Second. There was a tumult at Cambridge,
and the Vice-Chancellor was put in prison. The Charter was
taken away on that occasion, but aftetwards restored. That was the
only Instance of suck a pmending, and he called on the corsoli.lted
cabinet of the present tray to call on the Attorney Generti t..r new
grains of law, which they much wanted—(a laugh)—be'.. e care
eked their plan into execution. He supposed that the pr. retie:). of the
suppression of the chartered monasteries by Henry Vi li. would
not be advanced as a justification. although it was the only measure
in the history of the country winch bore any analogy to this proposed
act of universal robbery of corporate charters; but he supposed they
should not hear that advanced as its justification. Henry the Eighth,
indeed, worked welt a united cabinet, as the present cabinet was united,
a cabinet united in spoliation. The abbots were summoned to sur-
render their charters, and some of them refusing, they were transferred
to prisons, and the charters were surrendered. But the corpnra-
, dens of the present day, it seemed, were not even to he called upon to
surre:Aer their charters, but were some day to find that they had Opp. d
through their fingers without their knowing any thing at all about :be
matter. He did not suppose that it was intended by the united Cabinet
that the parties thus to be violently defrauded of their right sentill 1.1
through the mockery of a hearing at the bar, in order to chew in def.:lice
of those rights that they were held by all the sanctions which had hi-
therto made rights secure and property sacred in this country. The
noble member for Yorkshire had alluded to the opinions of Mr.
Fox. Now although he did not generally coincide with the opi-
nions or principles of Mr. Fox, never having been a Whig, yet
Mr. Fox had expressed an opinion upon this subject, nut of
spoliating and destroying corporate charters, but of infringing
upon the least of their exclusive rights even under the emergency
of an interruption of the public peace. In the year 1803 the
people of the town of Nottingham took a fancy tohave a procession, at
the head of which was a lady called the " goddess of reason." This
lady was taken from a class not boasting the purest of characters. and
she was bevmeared with paint in the proper tricolour proportions. (hear)
Now the Tories of Nottingham did not choose to follow in the train of
this strumpct set up to personify the liberty and reason of which they
entertained a somewhat different notion and idea. The Tories then re-
fused to join the procenion, and their coats were all spencered to a man.
The town Magistrates being members of the Corporation, and of the
goddess of reason's party, refused to interfere to quell the riot ; yet even
these gentlemen were now on the Paymaster's List of cashiered Cor-
porations. ( Hear, hear, hear.) This being the case, the County
Alagistrates were empowered to assist theta in preserving the peace of
the town, and that act Mr. Fox strenuously opposed, and described it
as a precedent which, if followed up, would lead to the destruction of
all the Corporations in the country. He knew cot, indeed, whether or
not Mr. Fox was looking whit a telescopic eye to the efforts of such a
united Cabinet as the present, but very sure he was that Mr. Fos
treated the matter as a most serious and unjustifiable interference with
popular rights. Well, then—until he found himself set right by the
Attorney-General—not by any deputy of the united Cabinet, civil or
military—but by some one competent to set him right—he would stake
his small reputation as a lawyer upon the assertion, that no case existed
on record of any act bearing the least shadow of assimilation to the whole-
sale act of spoliation now proposed to be perpetrated upon the arbitrary
theory of the noble paymaster,or of that cabinet which he wasmade to re-
present, and which had within the last 2 or 3 months found mason to be.
come united upon a subject on which they could never before agree. In all
the past history of the country, Parliament had been looked to as the
power whose natural office it was to protect and to conserve the rights
and properties of the public ; but now, if this measure were carried, they
would have changed their character of conservator for that of spoliator.
(Cheers.) He would call the attention of an Hon. Alderman, member
for the city of London, to the destruction of charters in the reign of
Charles 11. (Cheers.) He referred to that, because he wished him and
all those who were interested in corporate rights to remember that what
was the case of the Member for Boroughbridge to-day, might also one
day be their own. He was sure, therefore, that the Hon. Alderman
would have no hand in any corporation robbery. He trusted that by this
allusion he had nailed down the vote of the Hon. Alderman as completely
as he had nailed down some of'the spurious, counterfeit, Downing-street
arguments, by which the measure had been supported. He would ask
any man to say, if the rights of these corporations were des,royed, what
future security there would be for any chartered rights of any other de.
scription ? The Peer held his right by a piece of parchment, with the
great seal attached to it. All corporations held their charters by the
same security, and no other. The Corporation of the Bank of England
existed by charter; the East India Company, and all the other great
associated bodies, had no other protection, and they were all equally
struck at by this bill. He need not trouble the house by going into the
other objections which he could superadd, and accumulate against the
measure ; this was a point which he could not get over, and upon that
ground he rested his opposition. There were some topics, however, upon
which he would address to the house a few words. He agreed with what
had been ably stated by the hon. member for Preston, that the measure',
would not give satisfaction to the country, or produce that harmony of
opinion which its framers seemed to anticipate from it. Oa the con.'
trary, its effect would he to drive the poor man from the privileges
which in some eases henow enjoyed—to divide the country into two dis-
tinct parties, the represented and the
unrepresented the middling and
the poorer classes—and to place those two parties in conflict and col.
lision. Then, again, as he understood the privileges of existing voters
were not to be taken from them where any member remained to be
voted for, but that they were only to end with the end of their lives. Thus
you would have the new-fangletl machinery at work at the sante time with
the old—aud this the noble Paymaster called simplifying the representa-
tion ! (Laughter.) Not denying that there might be a few sores upon some
parts of the system, he could not admire the surgery of the Cabinet, how-
-1 ever he might be delighted with their union, in the system of treatment
which they had adopted. Their practice appeared to him very much to
I resemble that of a celebrated practitioner, of whom much had been heard
of late, Mr. St. John Long. (Cheers and laughter.) They found
their patients with a few sores, and they proposed to " rub in," until
he should be covered with sores all over ; and, as he feared, if they
were permitted to continue the operation, to the great danger of his
expiring in their hands. (Loud and 101 l continued cheers, and
bursts of laughter.) In his opinion, a threat had been very impro-
perly and unconstitutionally resorted to by a minister of the
crown, to Induce the house to pass the measure. The First Lord
of the Admiralty had threatened them with a dissolution, if the
measure were not carried. Now he would say, that any man who
would suffer himself to be influenced in the vote he should give by
that threat, would be unworthy the character of a British senator.
Buthe did not believe that a dissolution would be the effect of not carry-
ing the Bill, but rather the contrary; for if it were carried, after they
had been induced to stigmatize themselves as usurper, how was It pos-
sible they could sit lad make laws for a country before whom they had
made such a confession ? Why, then, he would venture to predict
that if the measure were rejected, Parliament would not be dissolved,
but that the converse of that would take place, and that the dissolution
would only ensue if it were carried. The present united Cabinet had
come into office upon
_the strength of large promises of retrenchment
and, if they were shortly returned to their constituents, it would be no
thee curious to fancy what would pass between them and their consti-
tuents with regard to these promises of such vast retrenchment. He
would suppose, for example, the right hon. baronet, the First Lord of
the Admiralty, appearing refore the Cumberland freeholders at Cock-
ermouth. lie would suppose him upon the hustings—if indeed the
hustings were not to be retrencited—(a laugh)—addressing those free-
holders with an elegance of language which it would be in vain for him
to attempt to imitate. And he would also suppose one of the right
hon. baronet's constituents, a farnter;to address him thus : " Well,
Sir James, what have you done for us ? you know you promised us a
deal of rettenchmens Have you taken off the malt tax ?" "No,"
must he Sir James's reply, "we haven't done that." " Well, Sir
James." would say the farmer, " have you taken off the assessed taxes?"
Again Sir James would be obliged to say, " We haven't beat able to
do that either," Upon which the farmer would very naturally
rejoin, " Why. then, Sir James, will you tell us what you
have done ?" And then Sir James would be compelled to conclude
with something to this effect: " Why, my good friend, we have not re.
pealtd, the Malt Tax, nor have we taken off ;he Assessed Taxes ; hut
I'll t.. 11 you what we have done for you—we have taken ye off sixty-two
Members of Parliament."—[lt is impossible to describe the force of this
part of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman's speech, or its effect upon the
House, which was for some moments convulsed with langliter.l—Now
this would, no doubt, be a very merry conceit at Cockermouth
(Renewed laughter) and the Right Honourable Baronet, wlth
his ingenuity, would find not much difficulty in getting out of
it at the hustings. (Laughter.) But it behoved him, or the
Cabinet in the person of some of its Members, to stand up there
and to satisfy that House of the sufficiency of the grounds, as well
as of the soundness of the principles, upon which a large portion
of its members was thus to be arbitrarily taken away. He hat! now, he
trusted' done his (ha! to his country, to that house, and to himself ;
and he hat: only a few mire words to add. In the time of Cromwell
there took place what was called a 1 urge of the House of Commons.
That purge was called C, 1. Pride's Purge." (Laughter.) Within the
last three days they had !wen threats. ed with another purge, and
which, as no name hall beer. given to it, he should take the liberty of
calling " Russell's Purge." (Roars of laughter.) This measure, he
contended, was teueded upon a rep& basis, and partook of the
smite violence which Itelottgeel to the Act which formerly expelled the
Members front that house. And now, after more than a century--at
least since the revolution--fornting the most happy period in the his-
' tory of the country, they were to be exposed again to the nauseous ty.
nanny ef a repetition of " Colonel Pride's Purge."
The hon. and learned gentleman then sat down amidst the loudest
cheering. which continued for some minutes.
The A TTOR NE Y- G E HER A L rose, hut was for a length of time•
unable to proceed. (The cries of Adjourn, adjourn, and Off, off; re-
sounded from all parts of the house.)
Several members attempted to speak, when—
The SPEAKER said that it was out of order for any gentleman to
speak when an hon. member was in possession of the house.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL again attempted to speak, but the
loud cries of Adjourn, adjourn, completely prevented it.
The SPEAKER called oder, and, after some time, order was sons-
what obtained.

The ATTORNIIT-GILNER AL then proceeded essay, that he was
extremely sorry, seeing the feeling of the house, to trespass on he Wad-
gence. (Loud cries of adjourn, adjourn, order, order, go on, go on.)
He would not for a moment object to an adjournment, had be not felt
personally called upon by the honourable member for Boroughbridge,
(go on, go on, go on.) He, therefore, felt quite sure that an meteor-
binge of English gentlemen would give him a patient hearing. (Heal.)
He could assure bonoutable members he would not have troubled &cur
had It not been for the very extraordinary call that was made use
'him. The honourable member for Boroughbridge had stated thrt
the present Attorney-General ought to be drove from the lieuse in
the part he had taken in forming the present measure. He had tak
no part only as an humble servant of the crown,but the measure had hie
inost cordial support. One would have thought, from the hon. m.m.
bet's tone, that he was delivering his lest dying spetch.—(loud laughter)
—and regretting that he left so detestable an officer as the present At.
torney-General behind,.-{Hen, hear, and loud cries of adjourn.) The
Attorney-General continued.—Really he would wish to ask if it we-
intended to adjourn every night at half-past 12 o'clock? if such a etas:
urination was persisted in he should like to know how many nights ium
members wished to sit on the debate. Ihe hon. and learned member lia.l
good-humouredly called this measure "Russell's Purge" and no doubt it
was a purge that so excited his feelings as to warrant him ie. making the
remark. lie also :aid that it bore a resemblance to Pride's purge in the
time of Cromwell. Now on the authority of Lord Clarendon. hr would
state that Pride's purge had nothing to do with a reform in the House
of Commons. (Hear, hear.) It was most disgraceml that a duke er
lord should send members into that house for rotten buroagae, and
that .hose members should be called the representatiees of the people.
A sacrifice of parliamentary influence must be made—the country de-
manded it, and had a right to capes t it. (Hear and ch. ere.) lie item)
ask those who opposed the present measure, if they .secant to
that no reform was required? He had not heard a single ergumen-
against it; but the torment appeared to be, tl at tau reform e...
necessary. (Cries of No, no.) Then he did not uelltritand tact,-.,
they eeetainly tended to that. No other plan had beet, proposed, tire
only arguments were in objection to the plan proposed be his nohie
friend. lie had listened attentively, but no suttgesdon et any refire;
bad been made by the opponents of the present mess:tea In a few I;,.
stances enquiries had been made at the bar into corrupt practices at
elections, but it had always been a needless expense and great hypo-
crisy. (hear, hear, hear.) It was true a noble duke had declared that
no Iltform was necessary, as the present system of representatioe
was the best that could be devised. Yet he was able to make a
miserable sacrifice in one or two boroughs, vet these were sacrific
that would not satisfy the country. [Hear, hear.] It was as 1101J-
r:ous as the sun at noon. day that seats were regularly sold. [ Hear.] Then
why should the poor man who had a vote, be deprived of selling it.
(hear.) What justice was there in disfranchising Retford and Beet-hem,
it was a paltry stile of legislation (hear.) He remembered when Mr.
Canning argued the question of reform, in 1822, he stated that public.
minds might be satisfied with the present state of the representation
from the benefits that were derived from it. But nothing in his (the At.
tomey-General's) opinion could be more disgusting and demoralizing
'than the present state of the representation (hear.) The people had found
it out, and the House of Commons, as English gentlemen, he hoped
were prepared to do their duty (hear.) He would ask, whether any
scheme more likely to do good, and give more universal satisfaction,
than the one now on the table could be proposed. Never was a scheme
prepared with a more sincere desire for the public good. It had beet
said :hat Pitt, Fox, and other great names, found their way into tile
house by the defects of the present system ; bu• he would contend that
they came in by the voice of the people. In 1818 it had been arranged
for lehn to COW! into Parliament for a rotten borough, but he heard that
a vacancy was about to take place in the town he then represented, but
such vacancy not having taken place, he must own he had not the
courage to refuse the offer of a borough—he should have been much
more satisfied with himself if be had—for it was not a situation to be
desired by an independent spirit. (Hear. hear.) There was no
comparison to be made between a rotten borough and the represen-
tation of a flourishing town. Ile had the authority of Fox, Pitt,
and Burke, and Lord Chatham, of former times, on the necessity of a
Reform in Parliament. It was not to support the splendour of the
peerage that they were allowed to send their nominees to Patliaineet ;
but it arose from the mere accident of their having purchased borough:.
—during the time of Mr. Pitt forty boroughs were got rid of. He (the
Attorney-General) was of opinion, that every purchaser of a bootlg:1
might be punished at common law, under the Bribery Acts; thereene.
let no more be said about vested rights. The present measure was an ..ct
of justice, which the people were entitled to. The House would see wile:
titer the Common Council of the City of London and the Coteau,' Hell
which meets to-morrow, would lament over the spoliation of those s ae
almost defunct boroughs. (Hear.) An hon. member had said, let tat
bill be brought in, and then it would be seen what the people thougi.:
of it. lie wished chose who opposed it would abide by that crtterio:,
(Hear, hem.) The people of England had for the lass one I.untleet:
years been a buffering people, and they had a right to expect re-
dress. The revolution in France was not any thing for this coumry
to dread ; that was brought about by an act of the King on th..-
throne, who committed an act that made it impossible to presets.:
that dynasty. The Revolution in Fiance was of a very differtut
nature to time one in Belgium. It was asked why Knareeeoreu,tei,
Comae, and Tavistock, were not to be disfranchised, the answ‘r
was plain, some line must be drawn, and although time franchise was to
remain in these boroughs, the spa.m would be completely ale rt tl. It
would no longer remain in the hands of a patron, or a select corpora-
tion, but in the householders at large. His hon. and learned friend
would, according to his views on the subject, leave the heuse as the
victim of a tyrannical measure, and he was to leave the leease kee a de-
graded Attorney-Omni' ; but still he hoped, that whatever change itt
the representation might take place, they both should be ..gain ;urea',
to fight the battles of the people. (Hear.)
At a quarter past one o clock, 31r. J. Banks moved an adjournincia
of the debate until five o'clock this day, which motion was seconded by
Mr. Perceval, and agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Half-past One u'Clocia

semmemos=ressma
THE DISFRANCHISED BOROUGHS.
The following is a list of the present sitting members tut
the 60 boroughs proposed to be disfranchised by Lord John
Russell:
Aldborough (York).—Viscount Stormont and J. F. Clinton.
Aldborough (Suffolk).—Marquis of Douro and Right Hon. .1. W.
Ctoka.
I •

Appleby.—Visconnt Maitland and Hon. H. Tufton.
iledwin.—Right Hon. Sir J. Nicholl and J. F. Buxton.
Beeralston.--Lord Loraine and C. Blacken.
Bishop's-Castle.—E. Rogers and F. H. CornwalL
Bletchingley.—Sir Wm. Horne and C. Tennyson.
Boroughbridge.—Sir C. Wetherell and M. Attwood.
Boasiney.—E. R. Tunno and Hon. J. S. Wortley.
Braekley.—R. H Bradshaw and Captain J. Bradshaw.
Bramber.—Hon. F. 0. Calthorpe and J. Irving.
Buckingham.—Sir G. Nugent and Sir T. Freemantle.
Callington.—A. Baring and W. B. Baring.
Camelford.--M. Millbank and S. Cradock.
Castle.Rising.—Lord H. Cholmondelev and Hon. F. G. Howard.
Cuefe-Castle.-0. Banta and P. J. }tills.
Dunwich.—A. Arcedeckne and F. Banic.
Eye.—Sir E. Kennon and Sir P. C. Sydney
Fowcy.—Lord Brudenell and J. C. Severn
Oxtton.—J. S. Hope and J. V. Shelley
Haslemere.--Iligkt Hon. Sir J. Beckett and W. Holmes
liedon.—Sit T. Constable and R. Farrand
Heytesbury.—E. H. A'Conrt and Sir G. T. Staunton
Higham Farers.,-(One member) Viscount Howick
Ilindon.—J. Wayland and Hon. 0. i%l. Fortescue
Ilchester—J. J. H. Vere and M. Bruce
East Lona—T. A. Kenimis and H. T. Hope
West Looe —C. Buller, jun. and Sit C. Hulse.
Lostwithici—How K Curt and Right Hon. W. V. Fitsgeridd.
Ludgcrshali—R. T. Foley and Sir 8. I:ltalians.
Blalmesbury—Sir C. Forbes and J. Forbes.
Mitlhurst—J, A. Smith and G. Smith.
hlilborne Pon—Right Hon. W. Sturges Bourne and G. S. Byng.
IlineLeaa—J. F. Luttrell and W. E. Towline.
Newport, Ctornwall—J. Raine and J. Doherty.
Newton, Lancashire—T. Honldsworth and Colonel T. Legit.
Newton, Isle of Wight—Hon. C. A. W. Pelham and H. (Sunny.
Oakhampton......Hon. O. J. Ellis and Lord B. A. Seymour.
Orford.-8. B. Kildabee and Colonel Cooke.
PetersilehL-81r W. Jolliffe and O. E. Joliet
Plympton.—Viseonnt Valletort and G. C. Antrobus.
Quecnborciugh.—J. Ca' pel and Hon. P. C. H. Durham.
Reigate.—J. Cocks and Sir J. Yorke.
Romney.—W. Miles and Hon. A. "Over.
St. Alawee.—Sir E. Llurit4ton and 0.0. W. Pigott.
3liehael's (Cornwall)—J. H. flawldas and Hon. L. Ktoyoh.
Saltash.—J. Oregson and Earl of Darlington.
Old Sarum—J.' Alexander and 3. Dupre Alexander.
Seafoid—J. Fitagerald and Hon. A. F. Ellis.
Steyning—E Blount and 0. R. Philips.
Stockbridge-0. Wilbraham and W. S. Stanky.
Tregony— J. Alackillop and J. A. Gordon.
Wareham—Right Hon. J. Calcraft and J. Ewit.g.
Wendorer-8. Smith and A. Smith.
%Vcobly—Lord W. Thynne and Lord H. F. Thynne.
Whin:hutch-48r S. Scott and Hon. J. R. Townshend.
Winchelsea—HowlH. Dunstan and J. Williams.
Woodotock—Lord C. 8. Chulithill and Morqui:. of Blioitl'out.
Wootton Haoott....Visoonnt Mahon 'tn.. T. H. Villiers.

Vannoath—lice. G. Anion abd W. Y. Peel.

• 7

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