Star.
London, England, 1830-05-01 00:00:00

an establishment. The present was nut a time for such useless ex-
pense.
Lord HOWICK said that public economy could not be promoted
by objecting to minute items like this. A scientific corps like this
became necessary to be maintained.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he wa: not discouraged by the censute
of the noble lord, nor would he be flattered by his praise. The
money voted fur these put poses was the money oldie people of Eng-
land. and they should not be wasteful of it. We had gone through
many wars without rocket men, and when we should have a war,
we could have them again.
Sir HP:I4IIV HARDINGE said the hon gentlemen were tinfor •
tunate in their opposition to the rocke' corps, which consisted of 116
men only.
Mr. MABLRLY said it was a farce and a mockery to submit
many of these you to the Committee, as, when they were oppos-d,
the reply was—that the state of the country. er of Europe, requited
them. The house ought to be told what wets the state of Europe.
After a few words from Mr. Warburton, 31r. Dolteny, Mr. Hume,
and Lord Grenville Somerset. the vote wits agreed to.
The next vote was for 1,22:11 to defray the experues of the Di.
rector-General of the Field Train and Field Train Department.
In answer to a question from Mr. HUME,
Mr. PERCIVAL said the duty of this office was to superintend
the battering guns, and some artillery.
3lr. 11(731E next asked his pay, besides allowances ?
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said he had 265. a day. He was an
old General Officer, General 31‘Load.

The vote Wes agreed to.
A grant of 9,1271. was proposed to defray the expenses of the
mcdictd eqablisliment of the military departnieot, of the ortlonaacc
in Great Britain and Ireland for the year 1830.
After a few words from Lord E. SOIIIVT,C. Mr. Moberly, and Sir
11. Hardinge, who said that as soon as this vvablislialent fell off in
the course of nature, the expense wou'd decrease, the vote was
agreed to.
A grant of 3,4021. was next proposed to defray the expenses of
the establishment of civil officers, professors, &c. of the Military
Academy at ‘Vuolwich, for the year 1830.
Mr. 11l MI asked how many cadets were in the academy
Lord DOWNES said that there were 124.

AIL HUME again asked how many of tl!c:n were the cons of
artillery officers ?
Lord DOWNES said 20 of them were the sons of artillery
officers, and 10 or 12 were sons of officers in the army.
air. HUME condemned this sort of pauper education for a num.
ber of young men whom the service did oar require. They wcre
put into thin establishment as a charity school, not being able
otherwise to get an education, end t•o the country bad to pay for
therm

Sir H. HAUDINGE rose to relic' the charge of the hon. gen-
tleman against these young men as receiving a pauper education.
He contended that the promises made by the Marquis of Anglesey
and his predecessor had been strictly carried into effect by Lord Be-
resiord so far as regarded the appointment of cadets.
Mr. MAIIERIX maintained that the country was Lot bound
to educate the sons of private gentlemen for any profession what-
ever.

Sir 11. HARDINGE thought that the present system, which
cost the country only 3,2001. a-year, could not, in any respect, be
considered an expensive one to the public.
Mr. HUME said that medical officers were educated at their
own expense, and all other officers ought to follow their ex-
ample. He looked upon those who were educated at the sea.
denty at Woolwich as nothing better than paupers. Si
also he would say, that he looked upoa all pensioners of the
Crown as nothing better than paupers. This might not
'Round very pler-siuitly to courtly ears ; but he must still express his
decided opinion that my lord or my lady, or any other persons who
derived pensions franc the Crown, paupers supported at the public
expense. What sere the qualiticatiens necessary for persons en-
tering the army ? None whatever. It was a common thing to say
of a man who was lit for nothing else, " Let him go into the church
or the army."
Sir. 11. HARDINGIE said he must protest in the very strongest
terms against the stigma which the hon. member cast upon the stu-
dents of the Woolwich Academy, in thus representing them to the
world as paupers. He treated such a designation with the conteraot
it deserved.

Mr. HUME said, that the language of the gallant officer was un-
becoming his situation. He (Mr. Hume) had already borne much
from him in the discharge of his duty.
Lord MILTON thought diet there was nothing in tba word
" contempt," as used by the gallant officer, that ought to have given
any offente to the hon. member for Aberdeen.

Sir H. HARDING,: assured the noble lord, and the corn.
mittee, that there was nothing farther from his intention than
to say anything which could prove, in any respect, offensive to
the honourable member for Aberdeen. (Hear, hear.) IVhat he
meant to say was, that he treated with contempt any idea that an
impression should go forth to the public, calulated to stigmatise the
students of Woolwich as paupers, and that too in their outset in
life. Much as he differed from the hon. member for Aberdeen, he
could never think of wilfully giving him any offence, considering
the good temper which that hon. member invariably showed in the
discussion of all questions in which he took part.
Lord HoWICK concurred with the hon. member for Aberdeen,
lin the view he took of the question. Ile thought that the public
ought to supply the means of education, but that the parties ought
to pay for it.
Mr. IL GORDON said that his bon. friend the member forAber.
deen was most unhappy in speaking of the army in the manner he
had done, when It was considered that the army was now the only
profession in which there was any chance of advancement. He
knew not how long the co.intry was to continue under this military
government—how long this barrack system was to prevail, but at
present it was quite evident that the rrmy had every thing its
own way.
After a few words from Lord DOWNER, Lord ALTHORP, and
Mr. A. BAanto,
Mr. HUAIE said he put it to the committee, whether the country
was now in a condition to offer a bounty to the sor.r of gentlemen,
in order to induce them to eater the artillery.
Mr. MABERLY thought that this vote ought at least to be
postponed to a (Mute occasion, and in the mean time that gentle-
man ought to have further information on the subject ; but he hoped
that the hon member for Aberdeen would hereafter conic prepared
to resist it on principle.
Mr. HUMI said there could be no doubt of the necessity of a
postponement at present. The vote was in itself extremely objec-
tionable.

A con►ersation then took place between several hon. members u
to the propriety of a postponement.
A division took place, when there appeared—
For the resolution l3l
Against it . 59

Blajority —72
1 he resolution was therefore agreed to.
The next resolution was 578,108 L to defray the expense of the
Ordnance extraordinariea for the year 1830, after deducting the sum
of 167,847 L for the sale of old stores.

Aftei come discussion, in which Mr. Hume, Mr. Alaberly, and
Mr. Gordon, contended that the item should be divided under
distinct heads, and the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Sir H. Har-
dinge, and Mr. Percival, took the opposite side, it was agreed that
the vote should be postponed, to give time for such division of the
Item.

The next resolution was 4,0341, for services rendered in the
Office of Ordnance not provided for by Parliament.
Lord MILTON rose to enter his protest against the whole mill-
inery system of the country, which be considered to be founded on a
most fallacious ductrine,thedoctrine that in profound peace we should
be prepared for war, not like our ancestors, by the energy of free in%ti-
tutions, but by expensive establishments and large standing armies.
(Hear. hear.) But it was not the Government alone that V* to
blathe—the house itself was to blame also. (hear, hear.) For his
own part, he did not reproach himself individually, for yeas after
year he had voted for reduction. Ilinistas had made a great pa-
rade of their reductions ; but they must reduce still more if they
would relieve the distresses of the country. At the beginning of the
session, it was not the intention, certainly not the declared intention
—and if any such intention existed, it would have been declared
by ministers, to reduce the expenditure of the country, but towards
the end of the session they hid felt the necessity of reduction.
Why, then, should the house despair of producing the same effect
now ? The country was now in the 15th year of peace, and yet
what is the condition of its establishments ? An immense military
force was kept up—a force uncalled fur by any danger or possible
apprehension of danger which could arise. (hear.) It was
possible not to see in this policy a contemptible and ruinous imi-
tation of the policy of certain states upon the Continent, who
placed their whole hopes of security in a large standing army.
(hear, hear.) But did the real strength of this country rest in
such securities ? Certainly rut, sun! lamentable would be the
crisis when it would trust to them and to them only. An army
of 90,000 men, in a season of profound peace, it was Male
stmts. (hear, hear, hear.) Where was the need of such a
force ? Whence was an invasion expected ? Where was an enemy
that required such a watchful force ? Would a dese.:nt be pre-
vented, or the polluting step of an invader be driven from these
shorealby:an army of 93,000 men alone ? No, the strength of
England was nut in her armies, but in the spirit and activity of
her people—is their energy and devotion. (Hear, hear.) Would
you increase your strength, then, and bind die people more closely
to their inetitutions, give them an interestf and an attachment to
their country, and as you enlarge those feelings, you go on adding
to your power. The way to do this was, not by lidding to the mi.
litery establishments of the country, but by cutting them down—
bLodiminishingrd instead of increasing their burdens. (Hear.) He
M.) was aware that at this time of day he was speaking a
Laramie WWI was iinfultionabie and antiquated; that ho was