Star.
London, England, 1825-05-18 00:00:00

CATHOLIC CLAIMS.

Petitions were presented against soy further concessions to the
Roman Catholics, from Brampton (Northampton.), by Earl Sum-
ner*; from several Parishes in Kent. by Lord Serra,/ ; by the
Earl of Lreaaroot, from Manchester, signed by 43,02$ names;
from the Town of Liverpool, signed by 13,190 names; another
from liaddington ; another from the Isle of Sheppey from the
Town of Stirling;. from the Scotch Presbytery of London; and
from a. Baptist Omgreption, he Loudest; by the Duke of Ihre.;:-
1160,14iM, from Westmeath; by the Leal CHANCELLOR, front Clerk-
/swell; from St. Saviour's, Southwark; from the 'Baptist Dissen-
ters•in Grange (Hertfordshire); from a Dissenting Congregation
near Ratehffe-highway ; from St. Olave's, Southwark ; and from
Olney (Bucks). •
The LORI) CH A NCRL.LOR presented a Petition also against
the Catholic Claims, fro'm the Minister, Churchwardens, &c. of
Mercy Chapel, }tailbone-place.
Lord KING-said that he •had been' informed by a
Noble Friend, that these were some circumstances con-
nected with •the getting up of this Petition so very ex-
traerdinery, that felt it hii duty to state then to
their Lordships. It appeared that on last Sunday the
Minister of Percy Chapel: concluded his sermon iii
pretty nearly these words : Before I sit down, I must
state to you that there il-now lying in the Vestry a Pe.
tition against the Catholic Claims, and as the House of
Lords are influenced by nurnbeis, Recommend to you.
females and all, to sign it, immediately, in order that it may be pre-
sented on Tuesday." This was a most unwarrantable distortion
of the authority and station of a, Clergyman. of the Establi.hed
Church. **Their Lordships flailbreit told that religion ought not to
be mixed up with polities. but bete was amixture which it be-
came some of the Right Rev. Prelates to M read,. mark, learn, and:
inwardly digest."
The B shop of LONDON entered into an explana-
tion of the facts. He said that the C.ergyman did not
give- the
.notice to the congregation until after the ser-.
mon was over, and that be had not done it with any
improper m..tives. Ile was a pious and worthy man,
not likely to be guilty of any intentional impropriety.
He had conlideiedit as an important question, involv-
ing religious and theological considerations, and 'n this
respect be (the Bishop of London) concurred with him. The mat-
ter came before the Legislature in a different shipe, for there It as.
timed a political character, but the Clergyman in question had
never meant to regard it but as a religious subject.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said that the Minister
had stated the facts to him, and said that the notice
was not given until the service was concluded. He
added, that he had explained the circumstances to the
Bishop of Loudon, who had expressed his satisfaction with them.
If the Bishop was satisfied with the conduct of the Minister, there
was no reason why their. Lordships should be dissatisfied with him
(the Lord Chancellor) for presenting the Petition.
'The Earl of CARNAIIVON was extremely surprised
at the facts which had .been derailed. •• He hoped they
never might be made a preceient, with the Clergy. If
question; of politics were to be mixed with those of the
Clergy, and introduced into the pulpit—if Parsons were
to be permitted to turn brawlers, and the Church was
to be changed into a debating club, then there was an
end to the repdtation and utility of the Established Re-
ligion. He regretted to see .that the Right Rev. Pre-
late not only did not reprobate such conduct, but that
he even set about excusing ir, and panegyrzed the
Clergyman. If the Minister had a right to blend poli.
tics and religion, any one of his parishioners would have
an elual right to stand up and contradict him. The
Church was consecrated to religion alone. Had lie been
in the Church himself, and had: he even been in favour
of the Petition, 'Wile should have regarded it as a dis-
gusting interruption of the Divine Service. If the
Bishops were so dead to all proper feeling as to apolo-
gise foe such conduct. it would be the business of
their Lordships to take the guidance of the Church
into. their own hands, and to rescue it from the
partial neglect of those who „ought to superintend it.—
He really did hopethat some of the Right Rev. Prelates
would rise to express their di •approbatiun of the conduct
of this Clergyman. . The Ministers of the Church had
gone out of their way to procute signatures to Petitions
against the-Catholic Claims. But for their exntions
there would haye been few or no such Petitions laid on
their Lordships table. At first the pubic were accused
ofleing in a state cf.apatby on the subject—then a few
straggling Petitions were got up from Archdeacons,
written in a style which_ would have diigraced .a
fourth-form boy at Eton; then a few towns sent in
Petitions front Ministers, Churshwardens, Ike, until the whole
machinery of the Clergy was put into aetive Operation. He pro-
tested against all such interference, which was at once unbecoming
and injurious to A: Church.
The Bishop t f LONDON explained. He said that
he had not piai.ed the conduct cif the Clergyman :• he
had only said that he was a pious and worthy man. With respect
to the Clergy of the Katablishment having promoted Petitions
against the Roman Catholics, he could wily say for himself, that-
he had never done it.

Earl SPENCER expressed his regret at hearing the
Right Reverend Prelate speak so calmly with regard to
conduct so unwarrantable, and so disgraceful, as that 1
which had been stated to the House. He was shocked
when he first heard the statement, and still mote so at
the manner it had been passed over by the Right Rev.
Prelate. He was told by a person of great verPcity that
the Minister in tpestion had given the notice at the end
of the sermon, and then he added the usual blessing to
the congregation. To a sincere frirnd t.) the Establishe.t
Church such-a proceeding was most painful. iit eendenined it in
the sevecest'tersiu and lived that. similar instahce would never
again occur. Whatever the general charactes of the Ckrgynian
might be, yet the Right Rev. Prelate ought to know that such an
interference in politics was most jinproper.
Lord ItOLLIC said, that the Pritks of the Ceske& March were
in the habit of preaching polities as their altars, aid of ilirthii-bO
their ',cis to hatted asatng tie Protestants. , , i
Lord CLIFDEaI denied .iltat the Catholic Priests
ever did so. He challenged the Nuble Lord to name
a single instance. No Clergyman ought ever Ito inter-
fere with politics. The. Clergy in London, however, he
Willi sotry to. says had done so, though in void. They
were inBuenced-14 the Inibi of a tithe of 25.9 d. in the
, . . . .._ 3.1: t.J„...,. ~. not . ..,..!:;cn.. .0 .:

pound granted to them by that bloodiest of. tyrants, Henry VIII.
He had heard a Nobleman, the friend of his late Majesty George
111. (Lord Barrington) say, and be concurred in the remark; that
whenever a Crgyman preached politica.frum the pulpit he ought
to have his ears nailed to that pulpit.
Lord LILFORD stated, that when, he first heard of
the conduct of the Clergyman alluded to,. he made in-
quiry, into the fact, and then mentioned it to the Bishop
of London. He. regarded it as a desecr.stion of the
Church. He agreed with the Noble Earl (Earl Spencer) in all he
had said, and he should have been greatly pleased, if the Rig-ht Rev..
Prelate had pronounced on it any, even the slightest reprobation.
The Archb.sbop of CANT ERBURX said that he
felt it his duty to condemn every reference to politics in
the pulpit. In the present case tie Clergyman alluded
to had acted improperly and irregulsrly—(Hear) He
hoped it was a solitary case, and that ft might not occur again—
( Hear). Its (trace then presented a Petition from Norwood, hi
Surrey, against the Catholic Claims.
Petitions against the Catholic Claims were likewise presented by
the Loan Citamentva from Chipping Wyconstw, (Bucks), and
from some parfait in Sussex ; from the County of Monaghan, by
Lord housetuate ; by his Royal Ilightte,a the Duke of Moat,
front* lit,ooo inhabitants of London and Westminster, and another
from Cardiff; by the Bishop of Liscour, from a town in Hertford-
shire, and from the Dignitaries of Lincoln Cathedral; by the
Bids; cif Loxeon, from Homey ; by the Doke 6f ROTUND, from
a town in the County of Rutland; by the Bishop of Caverns, from
a town in Cheshire, from Warrington, and from the Dissenters of
Trinity Hail Chapel, Alderspte-street ; by Lord KNNTON, from two
places in Denbighshire; by the Earl of Rotiem, from Lambeth -street
Chapel, Westminster; from St. George's, Hackney; from the
Dissenters of Union-street Chapel, Surrey ; from the Dissenters of
Crown-street Chapel (Middlesex); from a Baptist Congregation
in Middlesex ; and from the Baptists of Shouldham-strect Chapel;
by the Bishop of Sr. Davis's, from I'. W. Dixon, a Curate in the
diocese of Killatal nine Petitions front different places by the Earl
of Suarirsasuav; and by the Loan eIt4IMMISLOR, from Dunstable.
Lord CA LTHOKPE presented a Petition from a nu-
merous body of inhabitants of Birmingham, in favour
of the Catholic The Noble Lard read a letter, which
stated, that efforts had been made by a Clergyman in Binning.
ham, in one of die principal chapels, to procure signatures to an
Anti-Catholic Petition. Such improper Interference ought. to
be reprobated. He believed that the greater part of the educated
population of the empire was in favour of the Catholic Claims.
Petitions in favour of the Catholic Claims were presented
Lord Knus from "the Unitarian Dissenters of Tavistock ' • from
the Unitarian Dissenters of Collumpton (Devonsidre), and from
Stroud (Gloucestershire), by the Marquis of *Dowasinae, from the
Bankers ind Merchants of Belfast ; from. the Presbyterians of
Bangor (County Down), and from two respectable Ind opulent

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presented a Pe-
tition from Darlington (Durham), and said—ms Tnis is
a Petition against the Catholic Claims, and I .could
wi.h th.tt it had been placed in the hands of the Noble
Lord on the Woolsack, who is connec:ed with the
county of Durham, and whose sentiments co,cur with
those of the Petitioners. As I anibow addressing your
Lordships I will take Cie opportunity:4 expressing my
opinions on this great question, as briefly as :I can.—
When I consider how often, and how-ably the im'port-
ant topic of the Catholic Claims lies-been.discussed, and
when I consider the many eloquent, spteches which
will be delivered upon it in the-course -of this night's
debate, I tear it will bwregarded -es presuinption in qie,
who am unused to public speaking, to address your Lord-
ships at all. But, as I feel very strongly upon the sub::
ject,l will give utterance to those feelings now ratt.ift than
interrupt the coming discussion. M y. reasons-are these;
.ender the dispensation of PnovtosNoa,:Lhave, verptm-
fortunately for myself, and unfortunately too-for my
country, come into the possession of latge, estates in
Ireland, and I have, therefore, an especial interest in
the tranquillity of that country.• But there is another,
my respect for a departed relative, under whose .care
and in whose prieciplesll was bred. That relative, I
venture to say, was one of the most efficient and honest
Statesmen that this country ever possessed-•-( Hear).—
As a subject I do not overpraise him, and as a brother
I cannot say too much. I knew his sentiments tho-
roughly, and if he was in one thing more sincere than
in another—if these was. one subject which more than
another pressed on his mind, it was to see the Catholic
Question fairly and fully understood. .He only re-
gretted that the external and internal difficulties of the
country did not enable him to take such an active part
in promoting the measure as he wished, and that he
could not at once accomplish his desire.. Ever since
the Legislative Union of the two countries under that
great man, Mr. Piit, my lamented relative thought that
the measure was not complete--(liear, keor).—unless Ca-
tholic Emancipation . was 'carried—(Cheers) —lf there
was no pledge to that effect, there was, at least, some•
thing very like it--(ilear).—Had his life-been spared to the ttiun-
try. he would have called upon his Majesty', Ministers to redeem
that pledge. Thete wetV • his sentiments, and I hope Goo may
Ned his spirit to animate the Cabinet of his Majesty, and induce
ILeo to carry a ',admire so necessary to the tranqaillity and peace
lir Ireland. I hope your Lordships will footive this trespass out
I your time, but circumstanced as I am, and feeling as I do. I could
not refrain from expressing myself as I have done, though I fear,
most insperfectry.",--(Hear). • _ -
Lord DACRE presented- a Petition in favour qf the Catholic
1 t= signed by 900 Serjeants at Law, and Barristers; Lord
and WARD presented a Petition • from the Protestant Ms-
Eers of Dudley; the Bishop of NoawscH, from the Presbyterian
ymen in Lando'' connected with the. .Church of Scotland;
Hot
Hoeasn, three Petitions iron; the Unitarians in and near
et ; the Mariiuis of Hours, from Cardiff; his Royal Highness
Oho Duke of Sussex, from the Archdeacon and Clergy of the Arch.
ItUacont y of Sudbury.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented a Petition from the
Members of the Senates of Oxford and Cambridge, in favour of
the Catholic Claims. The Petition was signed by two Heeds of
Houses, by the Professors of Greek, Arabic, Gimlet,, Astronomy,
Anatomy, and nearly all that made the reputatiss of the Uni-
versity of Cambridge. The number pf signatures from Oxford
Was not so great, because there bad not been time enough to send
the Peddon down there.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN presented another similar Pod-
don from ten of the Protestant Nobility, and a large *umber of
Protestant Gentry not sitting in Parliament. Also, a Petition front
the Bankers and Traderi of Liverpool, 7,000 awes were signed
to it..representing net less than six millions of prOperty.
The Duke of DEVONSHIRE presented Petitions in
favour of the Catholic Claims., flow the county of Wu:
terford aud the town of Bandon. These Petitiens.wieve
numerously signed, and expressed thelentitaievits•Of 00
Protestants of Ireland. The t.,wn of Bandoll'aras be,*
of the most prosperinis towns in the Soutte diflrtßtnd,
and remarkable for its attachment to' the Pitiltsrsta.
Religion. It. cable f retard now to entreat theii'lr rd
ships to pass the Bill for reVe+ing ti e Catholics. Eery
day furnished fresh• proof of the .4nxiety ofebe Protett•
ants of Leland to see abblis'irti thes,dious distinctiobs
which existed,'and to see -re,i.),etiven,to that unhappy
country by timely coircessios-. I .deed; the whole pnz
pulation of Ireland implore.i their Lordships to pas
the' Bill. If therk aeie any d loge!, - nn whom would
that danger fall ?—not on th-10,,c,testantt of Engl I nd.or

Ireland, because they were both equally a minus tnwee
the measure carried. They asserted that the safety and
security of the country depended on it. The Catholic
Question had been agitated for more than twenty -five
years, and had been supported by nearly all the ablect
and most enlighteied Statesmen in England and Ire-
land, It was daily gaining friends, and making converts.
The Catholics were daily *advancing- in intelligence
and wealth. The question ought not to be left to sleep.
The present moment was most important. It was a
time of peace. The other House of Parliament had
.pronounced a favourable opinion. II the-preent mo.
went were neglected, who could say Oat conces,ion
hereafter would not come too late ? Divisi ns and dill•
turbances would again arise, and the old horrors would
be renewed. But if the question were lost this night,
it must one day be carried. Did any one believe that
the jug claims of the Catholics could be for ever with-
held? No rational man could think so. Why then
hazard by a present refitsal so many advantages, when
after that refusal most be in v.tio? Let the two people
be immediately and firmly united by equal'laws. • He
was rejoiced to see the question' in such she hands. Thei hid Ws
entire Concurrence. He trotted that their Lordships:nolidd by
their decision do credk to themselves end jultiee to Leland ; that
they would wipe off the stain from British legislation, arid abolish
those hateful distinctions which disgraced and weakened the empire,
and consolidate the national strength by uniting the national
heart.—( Hear).
Earl GREY presented Petitions in favour of the Catholics, from
the Protestant Dissenters of the Chapel in ilanover-square, New-
castie-upop-Tyne ; from the Roman CathoiTcs of Liverpool and
neighbourhood ; from those of the county of Monaghan, and those
of Preston and Wigan, iu Lancashire.—Laid ,nt the table.

ENGLISH CATHOLICS.
Earl GREY then said, that he h-ld a Petitiln, signed
by the Duke of Norfolk, all tire Catholic. Peers of *lnt. .
land, all the Prelates, and upwards 'Of 30,000 indivt• .
duals of that persuasion, praying ftlr the repeal of those
disqualifications under which they lay, not for any fink
committed by them, but hecawe they entertained a •
religioui belief which they could not conscientiously
alter. This Petition was written with proper respect,
but with the firmness and tone of men deeply sensible
of the injuties whit!) they suffered, and of their own
worthiness to enjoy a share in the liberties of the coun-
try. They submitted that while those disabilities
continued, they could never cease to coniplain.—
They appealed to their conduct as evidence of their
loyalty, and of their being di,tinguished by as ac-
tive a• zeal as any of their fellow subjects when
their exertions in the public set vice were not ins.
peded by the impolicy of the laws-,-(Hear, hear).
They repelled with indignation the charge that them
was something in their religion inconsistent with the
principles of free Government, and shined elat-the best
Constitutional guarantees of the country had IMOD esta-
blished by their ancestors; professing the satne-religion
as themselves. They alsb demonstrated, by the example
of Switzerland, that Catholic. and Priitestanf tostotas
bound together in the same union, and in full posses-
sion ssf Constitutional freedom, lived in perfect harmony:
,Tney thawed that in Fiance a Catholic King had edreed
.his Protestant and. Catholic subjects on the saint fdotingr,
that in the Kingdom elf the Netherlands high enjoyed
:a perfect equality of civil rights, under the specjaigua•
.rantve of the British .Government; that In Hahoypr his
Majesty had placed professpia of all religiOnion the same
tevel; that in Canada, though a British dependency, Ca-
tholicity was the religion of the State; and thatin the Unir
tedStates,instead of impeding the progress of public pro•
iperitr and power,the general freedomnf religion,, which
was now safely enjoyed, was the cause of their itZfvance.
They indignantly repelled the imputation .cast, upon
them by an. individual, who was once a Catholic him-
self, and had deserted. tf.eiz faith, that they: bOsi a di.
vided allegiance. They declared that they were ready
to defend the just rights.cif the Crown against. any Po-
tentate or Prelate. Under those circumstances, they
came with muliminhheithopes that the Wiidom, of the
House would relieve them from the opetatiOn.of laws
which woman injustice to them, and .a disgracAko Eng.
land. . They came recommended by the testimony of
,the NObbi Earl opposite (Liverpool), who. had repeat-
edly declared that they were not only most peaceable,
but most meritorious subjects, and had particularly dis-
tinguished their zeal and loyalty sr hen the country was-
in danger. They came recommendrd by she ,Petitions
of a great number of their Protestant brethren, chiefly
from that pelt of the country whet e dang r wis.,best ap-
preciated. They came recommended by thevOte of the
House of Common% which h id -ent f :r the second time
to their Lordships a Bill . for the Relief of the c.iith&ics.
It was said that the question hid becothe one of time, and
that concessions must be granted at no cflifant. period.
If we waited a little longer, they might berrifered in vain.
In peace and prosperity concessions. -might be safely
made, which in times of dimes, and when pavions
were exasperated, would be vainly preffered. ;11ch had
been the case with Amer ica. GOD grant that a greater
infatuation 'night • not proJuce a greater s*lration.
His only apooey for saying so much was that he
should not consider himself called upon to take any
part in the ensuing debate. The Petitioners did not .
pray for any other measure than that before their Lordships ; Las ie
atetleit to be forgotten that the case of the English Catholic* was
pees that of the Catholics "of Trelind, as the niriner were
Sable b. many disabllltia from which the Litter haillting since
'relieved. Hetherefore tnntrd that the Home vrould.
its decision of last. year, and remove the mass stri.kin. wawa*
'which existed in our laws, by Placing the Failieltiraitholics tLe
same routing as those of Ireland.
• The Peskiest was then read and laid on the 614 •••• :751_
mint t
• t mi
CATHOLIC RELIEF DILL. ••• • -
y• Or :g
•.
• 'irDe Order of the Day having been vp•
.:Tne Earl 01 DONOUG H MORE moved the lecoita
'rel.. ding of the Catholic Relief Bill. 'ln doing so. be
should not long occupy their I.orlshlpitteittlnn, after,
Jibe musserena Petidons which had beet' prinearell,iard WE Ohl.
Imaged debate.whiels bad already taken platter•!,llllWad_hle
said, ha disaitronell os {he abolition ef th,
that if asky Omen were disfranchised,
everything like freedom In the English Coosa!'
Lord COLCHp-fER contended'
`although satisfactory in sr
the .ParlitimenNary object...
it was evident from the Ira;
Lordships' table, Was
sense of the country.
readinesi had been ells'

a fell participation in a,.
of the .Colfstitutions, iii

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