Star.
London, England, 1814-07-05 00:00:00

THANKSGIVING DAT.

Mr. Naas. the Surveyor-General. appeared at the Ear, in
pursuance of the order of their Lordships to communicate the
nature of the accommodation prepared fur lordships,
House of Lords in
St. Paul's. In answer to questions put to bun by the Loan
CSANCILLOI he said. that there were places prepared for 17$
Peers on tits Lee of the Caurds, within the choir • and that be-
tween the space so aliened and the frost of the NIPS, there was
room for 7t) or e 0 more. For the Peeresses teats were pre-
pared in the stalls and aisle of the choir.
The Lean Cuasiest.Loa domed, that the accommodations
ought to be similar to than in the Hesse itself ; that there ought
to be wooksacks ter the Judges, Ns. and Mr. Nash was directed
to bring to the Howe to-morrew • copy of a plan of the preps-
rauous for their Lordships' Inspection.—Adiostrned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

?be SPEAKER acquainted the Howe, that be had received
Letter from the Duke of Wellington, dated Toulatter, ac-
heowhatlging the receipt of the You of igkanka of the Home to.,

THE PRINCESS OF WALES.
When the Gallery was opened, we lotted
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
,moring, that ,the Huse should resolve itself into a
Con;tm4tecien the documelits upon tip- table respect-
iiiiher 'Royal Highness the Princess of Wales.
The question having been-put from the ChAit, .
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that if in tl.e
Committee it were deemed expedent to make an
augmentation of the income of the Piincessot Wales.
he wasempowered to hive the Royal assrl.
: Mr. TTE.P.NEY besvged leave to put one question'
on a point of form be., .e the Speaker left the Chair.
He douhted. whether it was regular. without any
:Message from the Crown, and without any distinct
propositien, for the House to resolve itself into the
Committee. He did not think the P.pers upon the
Table afforded a sufficient ground for such a pro-
ceeding.
Lord CASTLEREAGH ant appearing to come
prehet,d the u attire of the est o , replied, that if
the'Princess of Wales did nut think it fit to accept
the 'segmentation to b. proposed in the Committee.
it wouiJ be in the power of her Royal Highness to
rzttise ir.
Mr. TIERNEY repctted his question. He .rants
he thonght it would be irregular for the House to
procced to the cori•ideration of this.sullect without
a Mess ige from the Crown, or some other distinct
I inform aims ht:rore it.
The SPI AK.EIt. said, that it was a matter en-
tirely for the decision of the House, whether the de•
cut:,..ents presented upon this subject bore up:in the
face of them sulficielt Aroultd :sod authority for tie
ploceedi.:g now .t..iggested. He was not aware th.4t
a question of this Saud had ever before mews- it in
the history tt Pat liament 9 and of c Ause, theref ire,
tie House would not expect from
him any 91)196
N 9 gra:it of the public money c.suld be made but by
the Royal assent. The only case that had ;toy le.
sostiblance to the present was that of the Four and
Halt per Cent. duty.
Mr. TIERNEY observed, that unite trod tEirti
from the Speakcr was, that this was a new CASs', upon
which the House was to make its own decision.—

There was certainly nothing in the Papers that is auld
raise any money question : they contained irs ref.-
rence to any grant of monry : all they amounted to
teas an agreement between the Prince and. 'Macros
of Wales to separate, in 1800, and another awes
meat, iu 180, respecting an allowance dftm to 14
made to the Princess, upon condition, that tf she in=
carted debts by exceeding her income, they were la
be defrayed by Act of Parliament. It could' n%.1
said that there bad been any such exceeding since
that peilosl—in s: rt, nothing to authorize this novel
mode of proceeding. The usual mode was for a
Message to be sent down, desiring the H-iuse to cna.
ble the Crown to make any addition. He raw l:1
reason why the Noble Lord should, in this in stance,
have gone out of the established practice which bad
been pursued on every occasion when grants had
been ni.ide to any branches of the Royal F smily.—
There were but twomodes in which these matters could
be regularly discussed, either by moving an &Wrest
tb the. Crown, or by bringing a Message from the
Crown. The precedent that the Noble Lord was
now about to set might be attended with the most
mischievous consequences. If it were a new case,
new remedy must undoubtedly be provided.
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that in all

cases where grants had been m ide io the junior
branches of the Royal Family, the mast usual and
most natural way had been by Mess ige from the
Throne; but he did not think the House would judge
it expedient to follow this precedent on all occasiiiiii,
when an allowance, under circumstances like those
of the present case, had already been male. In cases
where the Crown was addressed by Parliament, the
occupant of the Throne was not supposed to be ac-
quainted with the object. The question had bten
already raised in Parliament—the disposition of the
House to make an additional allowance was well
known ; it was not they unnatural or improver in
the Crown to give its assent that the question might
be brought under the view of the House.
Mr. TIERN EY begged the Noble Lord tn inf,rni
him of what it was in this case that the Crown took
notice ? It was all very well for the Noble Lard to
say that there was a general feeling in the Hi the in
favour' of an augmentation. But what WAS the fact ?
One single Member had made a motion upon the
subject, which was afterwards withdrawn. Did thii
look like a general concurrence in the House ? The .
question he wished to be answered was, of what it
was that the Crown took notice I
Lord CASTLE REA.GH added, that the Crowa
possessed so much knowledge of the fact as to order
she Papers to be laid before the House. His Lord-
ship did not see any objection to any Member mak-
ing a motion on the subject, the consent of the Crown
having been given, and in the exercise of his &sae-
, lion he wished to make such a proposal to the House.
Mr. TIERNEY replied, that no answer bad been
given
en to his question. The Royal assent having
given, any Member, it was true, could make a
were the Papers upon the table re•
Committee before that assent was known ?
mutton—But c why
There was no information before the House relating

I

1

to any question of money. He requested the opinion
of the Speaker.
L.'rd CASTLEREAGH remarked, that be saw
no objection to referring the information to a Com-
mittee el the House. What was to be done in that
Committee was another question ; it might be a ques-
tion whether upon such a basis the House could
found a measure like that which was now to be
. suggested?
Mr. C. WYNNE thought that the better way
would have been for the House to resolve itself into
a Committee on the Establishment of the Princess of '
Wales. His principal object in rising was to ask the''
Noble Lord on what precedent he founded his Mo-
tion ? He had understood him to say, on a former
occasion, that it was consistent with the practice of
Parliament, though not in the best times.
The SPEA KER then stated his opinion. The
case was admitted to be entirely novel ; all that was
analogous to ordinary proceedings was, that certain.
Papers, by royal command, had been laid upon the
table. It was competent, then, for any Member to
move that those Papers should be taken into consi-
deration ; but if the object were a grant of money,
the recommendation of the Crown was necessary.—
Whether these Papers so referred would afford a
sufficient basis, was not a question for his decision,
bolt he knew of no irregularity in referring the papers
to a Committee, or why the Crown might not be
supposed to know the contents of papers that it had
ordered to be laid upon the table. It was impossible
to judge in this case but by its analogy to the Ordi.
nary proceeding.
Mr. TIERNEY would submit to the doctrine laid
down by the Speaker, if the papers upon the table
had any reference to a grant of money.
Mr.WHITISREAD said, that the difficulty arose
from the premature motion of the Noble Lord, who
ought to have waited until the House were in Com-
mittee, before he stated that he was commissioned to
give the Royal Assent. The mode of proceeding
this 'right adopted, was certainly not the most re.
specttul to any individual, but more particularly to
the Princess of Wales. When the Noble Lord, on
the night of the discussion of this subject, announced
the vorious documents that Ind passed, he certainly
had mentioned in terms a brmal deed of separation,
but among the papas upon the table no such paper
was included Noble Lord had asserted tliat it

WAS drawn up by the highest legal authorities of the
day, but it turned out to be nothing more than a pe.
Cutriary arrangement for the augmentation of the in-
come of the Princess of Wales to e.:17,0t10 by quar-
terly payments, and providing that, if her Royal
highness should exceed her income, such excetts
siiould be defrayed by Act of Parliament ; although
in another part of the same instrument, the Prince
was made liable, disproving the assertion that it was
drawn up by the must eminat legal airthorities
was but justice to state, as he (Mr. 'Whitbread) disi
assert from the best authority (authority which he
could not doubt), that so far from any .cause having
arisen for the motion of to-night, the fact was, that
the Prir.cess of Wales had made such economical
arrangements to meet the difficulties ofthe time, that
at the present moment she was not in6ebted to the
extent of a single shilling. The Pi incess had made
no call upon Parliament or upon the Noce for as-
sistance, and she had given no authority fay any ap-
plication for the increase of her income. Before the
• House went into the Committee, he deemed it right
farther to state, what had been the pecuniary situa-
tion of the Princess of Wales up to the present time.
—The Princess of Wales arrived in this country in
1795, expecting to participate in all the splendour of
the Heir Apparent of the British Throne ; but very
shortly afterwards, from circumstances which it was
not necessary to recapitulate, a separate establish-
anent was formed for her Royal Higl'ness, which
was paid by the Prince of Wales until 1800. In that
year it was thought fit to make arrangements, limit-
ing the expenditure of the Princess of Wales. When
she resided in Carlton House, with an establishment
provided for her, she was allowed £17,000 per an-
num, exclusive of £5OOO pin•money, allowed by Act
of Parliament ; but upon the separation, her whole
income was reduced to 812,000 a year : out of that
limited sum, not being able to pay the necessary ex-
pences of furniture, plate, and linen, for a new and
distioct establi,limem, considerable debts were incur-
red ; and it was agreed by the Minister of the day,
to recommend to his Majesty the payment of those
debts ; but the provision being made near the time
of the cf.ath of Mr. Pitt, the discharge was not com-
pletely accomplished. Afterwards, the Princess of
Wales had the benefit of the advice of Mr. Perceval,
at which time the debts altogether amounted to
£51,000 and a fraction. The Prince of Wales agreed
to rake upon himself the payment of £49,000, in-
cluding the balance remaining unpaid under Mr.
Fitt's idringement. At this period also the income
of the Princess of Wales was augmented to £17,000
per annum, and the excuse made for the smallness of
• the previous amount was, the difficulties in which
the Prince of Wales was involved, which reduced his
own income t0.£24,000. It must be confessed, how-
ever, that these embarrassments were in rio respect to
be attributed to the Princess of Wales, and she had,
on separation, a right to expect such a provision as
became the rank she held. The Honourable Member
begged to take this opportunity of obliterating the
impression which, the Noble Lord had made upon
the House arid upon the country, by his solemn as-
sertion that a formal deed of separation, drawn up
by the first legal authorities, had been agreed upon
by the Prince and Princess of Wales and sanctioned
by the authority of the common parent of the parties
and of the people. The truth was, that no such in-
strument had ever been signed, nor would the Prin-
cess of Wales have put her band to any such docu-
ment. When, however, the income of the Regent
was increased to £60,000, it was required that some
addition should be made to that of the Princess of
Wales, which then was limited to only £12,000 per
annum. In consequence, in 1809, that £1'2,000 was
increased to £1 ;,000. The rapid rise in die value
of all articles of consumption was felt by all, and on
this ground applications bad been made by oche:
branches of the Royal Family for additions to their
salaries : •the Princess of Wales, however, had met
these difficulties by other means—she had adopted
by which the intetferenct
necessary, and Mr. Whit breao
equirecl. She had not ex:
she bad neithtr suggested,

directed, authorised, nor sanctioned any application t..
Parliament for pecuniary mist:nee. Thus much be
had thought it necessary to state before the Hduse
went into the Committee.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said that he should post-
pone some remarks upon what had fallen free the
Honourable Member until after the Speaker had left
the Chair.

Mr. ROSE supported the motion for the House
going into the Committee.
The SPEAKER observed opals a confusion of
terms employed in this discussion. The consent and
recommendation of the Crown were totally dis-
tinct ; the proper phrase in this case was certainly
the last.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said that he was autho-
rized to employ the word recommendation in its lar-
gest sense.
The SPEAKER then left his seat, and the House
went into the Committee.—Mr. BROGDEN in the Chair.
Lord CASTLEREAGH then rose, and spoke as
follows :—lt is my wish, before I proceed further
into the subject, to correct some misapprehensions as
to the nature and esti:ht of the income of tl e Princess
of Wales, which have gone abroad at various peeiods,
but which do not vary the result. 7he Honourable
Member ( Mr.Whitbread) has repeated the statement
made by an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Methuen)
on a former night, that previous to the year 18(X) the
income of the Princess of Wales was £17,000, besides
£5,000 for her privy purse, paid out of the Exche.
qutr. If lam correctly informed, drawing my in-
telligence through the most authentic channels, the
Princess of Wales, previous to 1800, had no fixed
annual income, and that after that year £19,000
were allowed. While her Royal Highness continued
to reside at Carlton-House her fixed income was only
£5,000, allowed by Act of Parliament, her other
expences being paid nut of the General Fund for i)o-
-mes0c Charges, as the bills of the Prince of Vales
It is entirely a mistake to suppose, that upon any oc-
casion I spoke of a formal deed of separation : that
which amounted to the same thing was signed in
1800, which first established a fixed income for the
Princess of Wales. It is not the fact that the Prin-
cess of Wales was allowed 5€2`2,000 before she quint.:
Carlton-House, but it is true, that on leaving it
A'l'2,ooo a-year was granted, not as any deduction,
but as a new arrangement, and a fixed income. I
must repeat, what I said upon a former night, that
considering the existing circumstances of his Royal
Highness, this allowance was as liberal, or more libe.
ral than any individual so situated would have riven:
it exceeded one quarter of his whole income. I will
not enter now into any arguments respecting extrava-
n,,a on either side, but on the part of the Prince
of Waite:, I do maintain that lie acted in this engage-
ment with the saute liberality that has eve: marked
his conduct towards the Princess el Wales. He took
upon himself, in 18(X), the payment of 4.19,000, the
debts of his Wife, who lived in separation, and rather
than allow her creditors to suffer, he put himself to
great personal Ai:convenience. With respect to the
amount of the debts of the Princess wt Wales, the
Honourable Member and the House will see that it
the sum of £49,000, paid in 1809, be divided into
annuli income between that date and the separation
in 1600, it will appear that the actual income of the
Princess of Wales was mole Li;rtn at 22,0:.)0 per annum.
Thi. was exclusive of the sums paid out the Droil%
of Admiralty, amounting to £32,000 and £fi,ooo.
—The actual :eduction, however. of the Prince of
Wales's income, f?orn 1800 to 1809, was e 22,000
per annum. It now came to the question, what addi-
tion it was fit to make to the revenue cf the Princess
of Wales, ales, and what sum it was expedient for Parlia-
ment to grant ? At the time the arrangement was
made in 1809, it was intended to be final and binding
upon the parties who treated, as in a state of absolute
and complete separation. However conclusive it
might be upon them, it does not, however, preclude
Parliament from interfering to enable the Princess of
Wales to maintain an establishment more spited to
her station in the country. The measure, which un-
der all the circumstances I think most desirable, is
to raise the income of the Princess of Wales to that
point to which it would be raised in the event of the
demise of the Prince Regent ; for without entering
into legal details as to the nature of the separation, it
is universally known to be as complete in fact as any
separation which can take place between two persons.
As, therefore, the Princess of Wales cannot be in the
enjoyment of" those advantages which, if both these
illustrious persons lived together, she would receive,
and as it is not within the province of Parliament to
investigate the causes of these differences, nor con-
sistent with the interest or dignity of the Royal Fa-
mily that any qt4Lee.ion respecting their difference:,
should be entertained in this House—(hear, hear)—
it seems consistent 1% iih justice that her Royal High-
ness should be placed in the same situation pending
this separation, in which she would stand in the event
of another calamity. By the proposition which I
shall submit to the Committee, the income of her
Royal Highness will thus be ra;:ed to a net amount
of £50,000 per annum. The manner in which I wish
to propose this income to be payable, is, that the
whole charge of it should rest ou the Consolidated
Fund, instead of being in part issued from the income
of the Prince Regent, and in part from the Exche-
quer, as is the case at present; and that the public
shall be indemnified to the amount of the sum which
is at present paid to the Princess of Wales, out of the
income of the Prince Regent. As to the nature of
the arrangement formerly made between the Prince
of Wales and the Princess, the object was, that his
Royal Highness should not be, subsequently to the
signing of that paper, liable to the debts contracted
by the Princess. It is true that it was only by the ge-
nerosity
of his Royal Highness that the creditors of
the Princess had any claim ; for .as they had nor cont.,
plied with the rules of the law enacted for the regula-
tion of the Prince of Wales's income, in which it was
expressed that unless all debts were given in within
three mouths after they had been contracted they
should not be re-claimable. It was thusto thegenerosity
of his Royal Highness,that the creditors of the Princess
of Wales were indebted for the payment which has been
alluded to, and riot to any wanton the part of his Rojas
Highness of legal rrotection. But his Royal Highness
was not secure against being liable to the future debts
If the Princess, as he might at any time have been
'ubliged to pay any debt contracted by the Princess,'
nor creditors had talcce the trouble to give in their
claims to the Prince within the stated erne. It may
be doubted, indeed, whether it would tot hat" been

Azix
sufficient bar to the rem Cron the pritite of all I
debts eostraeted by the • ef VAdes, that the
two illustrious persons were iondy in a state of
separation, and fat her loyal Highness had a sepa-
rate allowance assigned for bee sustenance. If in
such a ease, independently of all Reeds of impijailtni,
the creditors of the wife could not recover a fortiori
with a deed of separation, they could not have any
claim. But it was the peculiar situation of the Prince
of Wales at that time, that for the purpose of justice
to his actual creditors, the Parliament had taken away
from him the ability d incurring debts, and from en-
tering into any deed which might affect his income.
It was thus that his Royal Highness required the pro-
tection of the law more than any other subjtct, and it
was to this purpose that the paper which has been
presented to the House was drawn up, and his Ma-
jesty's signature affixed not only as a proof of the se-
paration of the illustrious parties, and the separate
maintenance, but that there was not only the separa-
tion defrao, but such an improbability, or rather im-
possibility, that a termination of this separation should
take place, that his Majesty was induced to lend his
sanction to the deed of arrangement. From motives
of delicacy, his Royal Highness had at the same time
undertaken to pay the debts previously contracted by
the Princess, with Ole assurance on the part of his Ma-
jesty, conveyed in the paper which has been men-
tioned, that in future cases, if any such occurred, be
should be allowed to seek protection from Parliament.
As to the nature of the regulations of the measure,
it will be unnecessary for me to detail them minutely,
until the Bill itself shall be submitted to the consider-
ation
of Parliament. It will not be advisable to place
her Royal Highness under the same disability in
which the Parliament has thought fit to place the
Prince of Wales, because in fact no debt has been
lately incurred by her Royal Highness to call for the
interference of Parliament. Another object of the
measure I shall propose is, to protect the Prince Re-
gent from the payment of any debts which may in
future be contracted by the Princess of Wales, as
her Royal Highn,!ss will now have a distinct sepa-
rate income charged on the Consolidated Fund. I
wish to propose that the net annual sum of £50,000
be granted to the Princess of Wales, and that the
45000 per ann. and the :17,000 per ann. which she
1 at present enjoys, be withheld from the Prince Re-
gent's income. His Lordship having stated that this
was the general outline of the measure be should pro.
pose, concluded by propo.ing this Resolution :
" That it is the opinion of the Committee that the
a!I ill, al sum of ai'..so,ooobe paid outof the Consolidated
, Fund of Great Britain to the Princess of Wales."

Mr. WHITBREAD ruse to set the House right
as to the past income of the Princess of Wales, and
duet ved that she was nit guilty of the embarrass.
ment created by the Act of Parliament to which she
was not a party. He could not illustrate the matter
better than by an account of the various arrangements
which had been made for the payment of the Prince
of Wales's debts. Before the Princess of Wales came
to this country, she expected to find the Prince of
Wales in the full enjoyment of the splendour due to
his station, as the second final arrangement for the
payment of his debts had been made before her 4r-
t ival. Shortly after her arrival in this country, it was
found impossible that his Royal Highness could con-
, tinue his establishments in the dignity in which PST.
liament had expected them to. have be .11 maintained.
In t:.e consequent reductions of the esvidishments. t`.e
Princess of Wales necessarily shared: which after two
final arrangements she could not have expected. Se-
venteen thousand pounds were, however, at that time
set aside for her, whether paid into her hands or not,
besides the X. 5000 which was legally due to her as
pin-money, and which was vested in the hands of
Lord Cholmondeley and Lord Thtirlow. In 1797 the
separation was determined on, and here he should ask
why the term separation was so much dwelt on by
the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) ? Did he mean to
found airy legal measure on such a term, or to prevent
tier Royal Highness from the enjoyment of any of her
just rights? Her Royal Highness was no party to a
use id this word, nor did he agree that the paper which
had been laid on the table amounted to a deed of
separation. The Chancellor himself bad expressed the
gravest doubts, whether any instrument of separation
could have a legal effect. When the Princess of Wales
had been limited to £12,000 a-year, it was said that
it was a great act of generosity to increase her allow-
ance. But it was just to remember that when the
Piincess left Carlton House, she had to provide her
furniture, plate, house rent—for theonly articles which
were given to her from Carlton House, were some
knives and forks. would not, therefore, seem any.
great act of generosisy that this allowance was in-
creased. It would be seen how moderate this allow.
ante of £12,000 a-year, to which the necessity of the
Prince of Wales had reduced her Royal Highness,
when by an application made on his behalf on the sth
of December, 1797, by Lord Cholmondeley, her
Royal Highness was offered in the event of a sepa-
ration, a house in town with £20,000 a-year, besides
the £5OOO settled on her. In 1800, however, when
the separation took place, £12,000 was the extent of
the allowance to her Royal Highness, and yet sur-
prise was expressed that a debt should have been con-
tracted, and paid out of the income of the Prince of
Wales, to the amount of which the 46000 paid for
the relinquishment of a house in Greenwich park was
studiously related—(No, from Lord Cardereagh.)—
That was the impression made on his (Mr. W.'ll) mind
at the time. All that was necessary on this part of the
question, was to relieve her Royal Highness from the
imputation of extravagance, and from the idea of her
having any wish or desire of the means of gratifying
that propensity, or that such was.the intention of the
applications which had been made to the. Honse.—
She had been satisfied with the allowance whiLti she
had possessed, nor had any disposition to have it in-
creased, until she had known the sense of the I louse
on the subject. No such intention was entertained
by any one who had applied to Parliament on the
subject of her Royal Highness, and be (Mr. Whit-
bread) could•distinetly state, that the Princess had
never authorized any one, directly or indirectly, to
make any proposition on the subject of increasing her
income since
!he arrangement of I WA/.
Lord CAS TLEREAGH
observed, that though
an arrangement,
which was considered final, had been
made respectmg the prince of Wales's debts, yet as
lie), had been contracted, it was necessary for them
N some manner to be paid. H.
(Lord Castlereagh)
tad not mentioned the som of 4.13,000 for
the House
at Greenwich, as lav;ng been paid out of the Prince

Admiralty..
r t
h d. t
on
ui
nt
hin
et
et aice,
ea
4mt
being
wobeen
unngtwo I,l::jesP aboai2dut of
of Wales's income-4 out
d
of the Prince of
Wales'sdehts intended to have been paid
on those
the Admiralty, but which were
out of the Droits of
left
'Drily
y Dv
paid
t s
d
of the Princess paid by the
Pi i ton had been Added her income, it woull have
of 02,000 per annum, with
amounted to an aconse
Princess Aso bad never
a remainder of £6,000. The
• If the amouioirnn
of her places of residence,
been at theaeatiessapenee
nitAcd.dthtaitie
dolts
been assigned to her by
the statement
not intend to found any argument oa
for places of residence,
be had made, yet be thought it just that the Prince
hwiistilMcnnajestuyd.erabkThounguhtfihte hadd
id
never eny husband had surrendered up so MAC
done: and that what.
wife as his Royal Highness had
aration it had
he
had
dt shezdeld
for
tbfeußpricredbeeietufor theHe exeepertoolesdh which
ever was the cause or mull of the sep
never been his incentive to visit the Priam' with any
pecuniary Meer venience.
Princess out of the Droits of the Admiralty, and not
between
2T6Bi
andtE AseiD7,oouobsebrveedd,beienn
peasipdlafnaertidon::
thatscsf,b ero.oo
in-
tended to l:are been so paid.
Mr. TIERNEY observed on the real effect of the
, which was the amount of all the debts o
further. Sorry as
lie was that it existed to this extent. he should decline
isebepeammptiaotnib—ilitthritetfiteewmapserson,eaub-hdicbh had arisen from an
all further comment—(Hear.) He gave tlisnks to
the Noble Lord for what he had achieved, to which
all he had done before was nothing to this recom-
mendation to Parliament for this allowance of fifty
thmissnd pounds a-year to the Princess of Wales.—
The effect of this measure would be speedily found,
I and on a day when our feelings would be in unison
with: such a happy event—he meant, on the Thanks-
giving-day. In the Procession on that occasion, he
hoped and trusted the Princess would find a pl.tee—
not so near to the Prince as she might have been un-
der other circumstances, but as tar off as the case
would permit—(4 laugh.) He again thanked the
Noble Lord for what lie had done, and hoped he
would be also successful in bringing about the event
to which he (Mr. Tierney) had alluded .(Hear, hear!)
He (Mr. Tierney) if he had been one of the advisers
• of her Royal Highness, should give her his opinion,
that it would not be advisable for her to Burt en the
country with so large a sum as the £50,000 a-year
now offered to her. But supposing so large a sum
to have been accepted, what was to become of the
remainder of the £60,000 paid to the Regent as
Prince of Wales, when die £17,000 was deducted.
This sixty thousand pounds had been granted to
the Prince of Wales for the joint lives of himself
and his Majesty. This was given in die contem-
plation that the civil list would never be enjoyed by
the Prince of Wales b fore the death of his Majesty.
His Majesty, it was true, still survived, whether hap.
pily or unhappily he scarce could say, and the Prince
Regent received the £60,000 vot?d for the support
of l,i, dignity of Prince of Wales, while he was act-
in the name and on the behalf of his Majesty and
ounded by his State. Why was not then this
060,000 taken away' It was said that it was ap-
propriated to pay his debts, but it was an inconsist-
ency that the Parliament should pass an Act to say
that the Prince of Wales should hay. no debts, and
then immediately allow him to pay them with this
i'60.000 a year without taking any notice of the
matter. Why then shculd a fresh charge be made
on the consolidated fund ? Why could not 450,000
of this £60,000 be transferred from the name of the
Prince of %Vales to that of the Princess ? The real
operation of the measure as at present proposed
won'd be, that the Prince of Wales would eurthen
the country, while the Princess would bear the odium.
If any incumbrance remained to be paid (in what.
ever mysterious terms they were wrapt up), why
were they not paid directly and above board, and
Princess of
as the Sovereign
not suffered in such a way to continue as to prevent
the
i great
e Prince
hop
edße
ottfiata ale?s i
worldrenpeotated
countryl4:
et
tirot
ac-
cept the whole of the proifered income of Fifty
Thousand Pounds ; but, if she did, he thought she
should not incur the odium of an increased h c arge
on the country.
Lord CASTLEREAGH disclaimed any credit
to himself for the proposition which he had made.
More credit was due to the Honourable Gentleman
whom he did not see in his place (Mr. Methuen) ;
for if the advocates of the Princess had before fairly
said that an increase of her allowance was the object,
there would have been no difficulty on the subject.
In answer to what bad fallen from a Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Tierney), be should say, that the
last opportunity on which he should endeavour to
bring together parties who felt mutusl repugnance,
would be on an occasion when the devotion should
not be interrupted in such a manner. As to the in.
come formerly granted to the Prince of Wales, it had
been applied since the time of the regulation which
first took place of the Regency, to the liquidation
of the debts of the Prince Regent. Since that time
the liquidation had proceeded ; not one newelebt had
been charged on that fund, and it was the i • ntention
of the Prince Regent that no new debts should
be
charged on it, and when the present debts were
liqui-
dated, it would revert to the country.
Mr. TIERNEY said he was satisfied, now be un-
derstood that the fund in question existed only till the
Prince's debts were paid, although he did not know
when that would be, or what the dubs were. As to
the appearance of the Princess on the Than I 6 k g.ving
Day, he did not ask the Noble Lord to work impos-
sibilities, but it was reasonable that when the Home
nt Commons had voted to the Princess
of Wales so
large a sum as £50,000 a year, that she should be
!Present at a solemnity at e which Royal
Peeresses, Lords and Commoners were be
He did not expect any reconcilia • but to
it would be
present.
pleasing to the public to see the two it
nY.dpersellageb
together, and earnestly hoped, that the
rank of the
Princess would be respected on that
Ncasion, because,
otherwise, so large a vote would
savour of a bribe or
a compromise. He was persuaded that the m,,a
Lord could mean no such insult, and that the Regeot
was incapable of it. The Proclamation
that all persons should goto
on
Churcb commanded
Thursday-,
and that such as did not, would fall
Highness's severe displeasure. wider his Royal
What, then, was the
Princess to do ? Was she to he shut nut from the Ca.
thedral Chnrcb ? He hoped
not; but that if not in

eermornical arrangements b:
now proposed was not necesl
believed never would be reqi
ceeded her income, and slit

f

.
the same pew with the Plinee, some place would
found for her Royal Highness.
Mr. WHITBREAD -I again disclaim what ha 4
been imputed by the Noble Lord—that money !IA
been my motive in bringing forwai d these discussjon4,
I ag sin peremptotiv fcny—l had it in contempti.•
tion to obtain tot du: Princess of %Vales justice—l h 0
it in ontemplation to obtain .a.rey—l had it in eoa-
templ-ation to obtain cle ptJtection of tins House,4nd
the ter tectiin has b, en obtain. d. The Member
,for
Wiltshire (Mr. MethLen), who first mentioned, the
prop,sition of vote on a former night, ilisclaOned
a-1 authority froth the Princess of Wales. It itsitst
be, save ail her right, save her state, and dirsity,
that she condescended to receive any money from
this House. When first she heard of the proposition,
she said-4, I shall not be allowed to Starve iNthis
country—l shall not be obliged to beg my bread--
and I will not compromise my rights for any thipg
which can be offered to me." Whatever she acceptl,
it must be in the contemplation that she givis
nothing of rank, of dignity, and characteit; which;
by the grant of this separate and ample—too ample
allowance, it is evident she holds in the eyes'nf all
the nation. It is in contemplation whether her Royal
.Highness shall be admitted within that Cathedral,
where all of higher rank are to be admitted. If an
Upplication made on her behalf were refused, how
would the nation brook this indignity .If there be
one found to advise a denial—and if it be intended
not only to exclude her Royal Highness from .the
Drawillg•TOqin --from matters of ceremony, but from
saying her prayers with the nation—what a mere
mockery will the Proclamation of the Prince and our
Resolutions be, if when we pray for forgiveness of
our trespasses as we forgive others, there is one per-
son shut out—not from forgiveness only, but from
justice. As to the provision which is to be made by
this vote, it is large—much larger than any of the
'friends of her Royal Highness could have contem
plated, if any such idea had entered their minds. It
ss for her to consider, whether she thinks proper to
accept the whole of it. I have no doubt that she
•N ill act with dignity and propriety ; and if she calls
is advisers on the subject, I hope she will call in such
as will support her in her own honourable ideas.
Mr. CANNING said, as II! bad not been present
ht the former discussions, he toe to express his con-
- Currence an entire satisfaction in the vote propostal,
the rather becaustt,the House on that day followed
up the manikstation of their sentiments on a former
occasion by a measure not to be mistaken by the par-
ties, both Iron which a )riginated. or with which it
kvai connected. He should have offered nothing fur-
ther, if be had not beard some declarations, that the
Princess would act unworthily to accept the present
grant--[The whole of it, from Mr. Tierney.) As the
House had preserved ate principle in the discussions

. on this subject, not to medllle in those things in whim.
it tould not properly come to a decision, so on the
'other hand, her Royal Highness sloultl not revise
the decisan of the Committee, but that considering
that all it:-r claims v..et,e. taken Into consider:y.lol4 and
that by refusing a part of Cie grant she would lie
:open to the imputation of giving up vane pecuniary
;advantage to be once more the subject of discussions
in Parliamet:t, it would be most proper for lier in AC.
4tilesci pitsively in the determination of the islou,e.
The Resolution was agreed to—the House was rt..
anted, and the Report was ordered to he brought top
io-toorroW.
FRESEIWATION OF THE PEACE It IRELAND.
The HOttie went into a Committee on .the Irish
Preset;itibn bf the Peace Bill.
to desultory conversation took place h?tween Mr.
Feet, Sir F. noon, Mr. Batqces, Sir H. PARNELL,
tted dth'eS, some verbal amendments were proposed,
end the Report was ordered to be taken into consi-
deration to-morrow.
irlix orthwAree ESTIMATE&
• •
The HoUte then went into a.Committee of 3npply.
Mr. R.WARD stated that considerable reductions
probably be expected in the Estimates which
he had to bring forward. In fact, a reduction would
Riond 'in the present year of £1,500,000. This
iitim amounted to ogre 4uarthr of the whole expence.
7:-It would be recollected that half of the year had
paired in war, and there had not been an opportunity
to seduce the different expences immediately. It was
the beginning of April betore it was known that Paris
bad been entered by the Allies ; soon after, Bona.
piste ihelicated, and On the l9th of that !bomb or.
tiers were issued by the Master General of the Ord.
dance to reduce the establishments in every possible
way. The 'military departnient had been 'reduced
bile-fourth; the number of horse one-third ; and in
the course of the year they would be reduced another
tbi.raz-that 14 from 'Mx) to s third of that number.
Me would not pledge himself Co an exact estimate of
the attire reduction of eximuce, hut he would offer a
tough calculation of the probable reduction under
the peace establishment. This he conceived would
be one half, exclusive of the total reduction of all the
foteign corps. In the engineer corps all the Officers
would be retained. This arose from the peculiar
nature of that service, which required a lung and la-
borioas coarse of educazion, and which, if once suf

iered to fall into neglect, could not easily be replaced.
It was not pns,ible to speak in too high terms of the
skill, the industry, and gallantry of the Officers is
this corps. He would next advert to what might
be considered as as infant service, which had, how-
ever, arrived at a state of matiliond —he meant the
rocket corps. For this service, and for the wonders
it had achieved in raising the military character of
the country, we were indebted to an Honourable
Friend of his, whom, as he did not see in leis place,
svi.n;P name, Colonel Corgreve. The Honour-
able Member then read several extracts from Officers
In the army, to shcw the importance of the services
which this corps had performed in Spain, and parti.
culari; at the passage of the Adour, where 40 men
armed with rockets had put tonight 3000 of theeneiny.
—The whole of the Officers in this corps would be re-
tained, but there would be a reduction in the number
of men. In the works at Woolwich there bad been'
a considerable reduction, and there would have been
a greater, but from the necessity of givingm the usual
orders, and buying up materials as early the
as possible. The whole amount was 464,000, every i
shilling of which be thought himself prepared to jus-
tify. One article under this bead, which it was pro.
per to account for, was 416,000 for barracks. The
tact was, that these were intended for a new corps of
Sappers and Miners, for whom the barracks at Wool-
wich were pot found sufficient. For dm Royal Pow.

,
der Mills there was a Mtn of it 12,000,,Which aroma
•chieffy *orb the improvements ithichtad bteawdopt-i
ed in the different mills to previtit explosions. Thfrr
had been also great irnprovernentic and consequently
some ex pence.in the machinery at Woolwich. Of the
magnitude and importance of these works we twilit
judge from the quantity of arms ani ammunition
which we bad sent abroad Trim the Laboratory at
Woolwich, sinte the year 1808, among which were
1384 pieceszt cannon, 30,000 muskets, 77,000 baireis
ofienpowder; and in the last year alone StO cannon,l
2(MO barrels of gunpowde, 48 millions of musket
cartridges, six millions of 11nts, &c. Among the kn.
provements in the machinery were two saws, which
had cost from 16 tO £20,000, and which had already
created a saving of near 418,000. After various state-
ments and details, the Honourable Gentleman con-
cluded with observing that lie should not have detained
the House so long, but that he was urged by a sense
of duty to give every iaftirrnation and explanation in
his power.
Mr. W. SMITH agreed in all which had been
said of the merits of the Engineers, but wished much
to know what was the expense of the of of that
corps for the year ?
Mr. WARD clid, the expense of officers was for
the last year £54,640.
_ _

Mr. BANK ES was sorry to find that a peace esta-
blishment so large as that alladed to by the Right
Hon. Gentleman was to be kept up ; he hoped some:
thing more moderate than this proposed establ.iliment
would ultimately be adopted.
Mr. WARD, (in reply to a qiicsti,nt of Mr. C.
Wytian,) said, the estimate for fire-works, including
timber and other materials any way attached to them
to be used in the Park, was sel:OiK).
Mr. W. WYNIIE said, it had lvvn st teed, thlt it
was necessary we should k.!el4 up an army Foror.

. . . . .
tionate to those of the Powers vn the o)inintot. I !..
denied the necessity for Any such measure. The :1.!-
vantage which our insular sintAtion gave us was—
that we could Always, in time of peace, reduce ow
establishment to the lowest standard.

Mr. CALCRAF r thottght the teductioa was as
great as could be expected.
Mr. BANKES protested against. keering up a
large Peace Establi.hment. in this country, in opposi.
tiott to foreign powers, as a system not nec'ssary, but
ruinous tf, our slf:ty•

Mr. CA LC livid as few of the officers of
Engineers would be ri.duced hail-pay as possible.
The reit of the Resolutions were then put and
agreed to.
Mr. W. SMITH moved a Resoitit;on for granting
ten thous.ind pounds fur erecting a bridge over the
Forth at Queen's Ferry ; !ait on the su,,zestion of the
Chancellor of the Exehequ?r, he withdrew his motion.
The Resolutions were then orderei to be reported
to-morrow.

On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EX.
CHEQUER, the second reading of the East India
Shipi..ng $•I1 was postponed till to morrow.
The Irish Judges' Salaries Bill was read a second
time, and ordered to he committed to-morrow.