Star.
London, England, 1831-06-25 00:00:00

SUPPLY.

On the motion of LordlaliOßP, the House resolved
Into a Committee of Supply, pro forma. Mr. BERNAL
took the Chair, amidst considerable cheering. The Besolu.
lion, " That a Supply be granted." was adopted.
Report to-morrow.
THE REVORM BILL.

On the motion of Lord Jonw RUBULL, the following
passage from his Majesty's speech was read by the clerk :
"My Lords and Gentlemen,—l have availed myself of
the earliest opportunity of resorting to your advice and as-
sistance after the dissolution of the late Parliament, having
had recourse to that measure for the purpose of ascertaining
the sense of my people on the expediency of a reform in the
representation. I have now to recommend that important
question to your earliest and most attentive consideration,
confident that in any measure you may prepare for its ad-
juiernent, you will carefully adhere to the acknowledged
principles of the constitution, by which the prerogatives of the
Crown, the authority of both houses of Parliament, and the
rights and liberties of the people, are equally secured."
Lad JOHN RUSSELL said that he now rose for the
purpose of proposing, in the name of the government, a mea.
sure of reform whitlr, in their opinion, was calculated to
maintain unimpaired the prerogatives of the crown, the
authority of both houses of parliament, and the rights and
liberties of the people. In rising to make this motion, be
could not but uk—recollecting what took place in the late
parliament, that he might have the benefit of a patient attn.
don, while he attempted to explain the principles of that
measure which the ministers had thought it expedient to
propose. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that honourable gen-
tlemen would favour him so far as not to repeat those
gestures and those convulsions, and that demeanour from
which it would seem that they thought the measure was
not to be seriously ascertained fa a moment, but that it
was to be scouted out of the house at ace by jeers, and
taunts, and ridicule. Whatever might be the reception of
the measure, those bon. gentlemen might be assured
that the Government would not yield, as those gentlemen
must strongly feel the Government had not yielded nor
abated, one iota in consequence of the opposition that bad
been raised against them. Neither the taunts nor the jeers
which talked the first reception of the measure nor the 1
misrepresentations and the libels by which it had been sought I
to disfigure it, nor the fair, and able, and manly opposi-
tion which men of talent and honour had thought it theft
duty to give to it, nor those more dangerous weapons,
those unwarrantable and slanderous imputations, that the
Sovereign had an opinion upon it different from that
of his constitutional and responsible advisers,—none
of these obstacles bad prevented the Sovereign,
the Ministers, or the people, from steadUy puma-
fug an object which they considered ought to be dear
at once to all those who loved the ancient ways of the
constitution, and to all those who wete sincerely attached to
the rights and liberties of the people.—(Cheers.) Of the
Sovereign and of the Ministers it did not become him, in
that place, to speak ; but he could not proceed further in
the discharge of that duty which at present devolved upon
him, without saying bow much he admired the conduct of
the people,—how worthy of all praise and glory the conduct
of the people of England had been (loud cheering); and be
said this without any reference to the merits of the mea-
sure,—which measure, however, it was quite certain had
then sealed with the approbation of tbi nation. But, he
repeated, he said this without reference to the merits of the
measure ; for, let that measure be as bad even as the most
bitter enemy of it had represented it to be, 'Mite must say.
that the sacrifices which had been made, and the devoted-
mess which had been manifested, even by the humblest
classes of the people, in pursuance of what they believed to
be their duty to their country these were facts of which
England would have reason to be proud to the. West
generation. (Cheers.) It had been said that the late
elections bad been governed, not by reason, bat by
passion, (cries of " Hear, bear," from the apposition, were loudly reechoed from the ministerial
benches). That the electors had beedmoved by passion.
be would not deny (0 Hear, hear," from the appal-
tioo) ; for love to one's country was a and by
that love the elector bad ' been raweeL
MgCheers.) That love, that passion, had . in awn that
and noble degree d'entheSsens whise mode own forgetown petty interest% and Dahl's hiS each •ii puska
could have lodised men who woad mg by thole Industry'

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but a few shillings a weeks to refuse the bribes that were
withhatheir retch, to wtilailield•the temptations that were
thrown to the eseffito give up the prospect of them-
selves and. their tes,coBtdit ing to enjoy a valuable pri-
vilege. (Cheers). Atelifter whetted men done this ? Why,
for the sake of a mere which was not for their own per-
sonal benefit and advainage, bat which they believed would
be for the future benefit and advantage of the millions of
these kingdoms. ftlear, hear.) This, surely, ought to be
• tenon to those gentlenien who seemed disposed never to
speak of the multitude, except in terms of disparage-
eat and contempt. (Hear, hear.) It might be a lesson
to them -now ; and he was surprised that similar lessons—
for there had been such—had not operated upon them be-
fore,—it might, he said, be a lesson to them not to ima.
gine that they displayed loyalty and good sense in speak-
ing of any class of his Majesty's subjects in terms at which
he was tare the hurt of his Majesty would recoil. (Hear,
-hear.) For whatever a man's station in society might be,
if, in the pursuit of an industrious occupation, he acted in-
dependently and conscientiously, he (Lord John Russell)
(lid not know why that man was not u much worthy
of respect as the proudest, the highest, the richest subject I.
the land. (Cheers.) With this preface he came now to the
measure, which he had to propose to-the house in his owls
and in the name of his colleagues. With regard to the
general restates and detail& of the measure, he did not think
k necessary to eater particularly into them that day, because
those features and those details were the same as the fea-
tures and the details of the bill which bad been before the
late parliament (much cheering.)—and as the slight improve-
ments which had been made were improvements which
were solely intended to carry into effect the principles of
the former bill, he thought it would; be quite suffi-
cient if be left the consideration of the details of the
measure until -the house should have sanctioned the first
and second reading, and the bill came into committee.—
(Cheers.) But although be did not feel it necessary at that
time to eater into an explanation of the particulars of the
bill, yet the house having been called together foe the pur.
pose of considering this great question,—a question which
affected deeply and entirely the construction of the house,—
he did think It respectful to the house to endeavour to
I lay before it the principles of the ancient representation, what
that reprtaent.tion was under the present laws, and what it
would be under the measure of reform which it was now
to introduce. If they wert back into the origin
erg the constitution, they would find,witbout
eateries into the circumstances that caused the change,
that it commenced st a time when the towns and cities of
Europe had grown into importance. In France and
In Spain representative assemblies were Introduced; and
in Germany, many towns erected independent constitu-
tions of their own. In our own country, there was for s
long period of time no regular, known, and defined repre-
sentation by cenalt cities and boroughs. The sheriffs of
counties were directed to return two citizens from every
city, and two burgesses for every borough ; and the sheriffs
interpreted this direction as meaning that they were to re-
turn members for such places in their county as they found
capable of bearing the expences of their representatives, and
of contributing towards the revenue. He held in his
hand a return made by the sheriff of the county of York,
in the reign of Henry V I.—a return for Scarborough ; and
in which it was said that there was no other town in the
county from which the Shesiff could return members to
serve in parliament. The words of the return were these :
" And there are not any cities or city, or more boroughs in
the county of York, from whence I can make any citizens
or more burgesses at present, o conic to the aforesaid par.
liament." In the same reign, it appeared that Bodmin,
Two, and Lostwithiel, Launceston, Liskeard, and Hel—
met, were the only places in the county of Cornwall that
returned members to pas Haman, and the shetiff, in his re-
turn, paid, that there were no other towns in his bailiwick
from which be could send representatives. But the greatest
peculiarity attached to the county of Lancaster. It appeared
by the returns of sheriffs in the same reign, and in the reigns
of the Edwards, that Lancaster and Preston were the only
two towns in Lancashire which were found capable of re-
turning representatives to parliament. (Here the nobis
lord reterred to some return of a sheriff In the reign of Ed-
ward 111. which was to the effect, that on account of the po-
verty and inability of the towns in his county—proptereorum
debilitatem seu paupertatcm—he could return no members.
In this manner it was, the. that house had been constituted
for a period of two hundred and fifty years, during which
time the return of members for partkular places was enforced
or dispensed with according to circumstances; and during
that period nothing could be more irregular or uncertain, or
less settled, than the right of sending members to Parliament.
The second in the history of our representation com-
menced witrtirie reign of Henry VI. and ended with the
race of the Tudors. During that period the authority of the
Crown was paramount, but new boroughs were crested and
old ones were restored. Looking over the lust of these
it was a striking fact, that a large proportion of them
were not places which had increased and become large in the
course of time • but that, on the contrary, the boroughs of ,
Cornwall, and ;mall boroughs in other parts of the kingdom,
were the places upon which the tight of returning members
to Parliament was conferred in the reigns of the Tudors. It
appeared, that of the 55 boroughs in schedule A, which it
was proposed to disfranchise, 45 were boroughs which had
been created in those reigns. He did not mean to argue that
this was a reason for the disfranchisement of those boroughs,
or that boroughs which were not the most ancient were those
which ought to be disfranchised. No • he stated this fact
fur the purpose of showing that the No;
princes were ec
mated rather by a desire of conferring the elective franchise
upon dependents of the Crown than by any view of improv-
ing the state of the representation. During the whole of
this period, the right of the King to create boroughs, and
to call new places into the representation, was undisputed.—
Thus, when the borough of Ease Loo first sent members to
Parliament, it would be seen, by an entry on their journals,
that it was held that the charter of East Loo could not be
questioned in that house, but that it was enough to show
that the borough had a charter, and that it had returned the
two members who appeared as its representatives. And so
then it eppeared, that, from the reign of Henry VI. to the
end of the Tudor race, the representation was irregular
sad unsettled, and that the power of conferring the elec-
tive franchise was vested indisputably in the Crown. Now
he stated these facts in order to demonstrate that the eon.
stitution of that house. instead of being that perpetual,
settled, invariable, and certain constitution, which they had
been told it was,—which they bad been told had not been
subject to variation or alteration,—and which it was said that
they (the ministers)were now about to violate with unhallowed
and desecrating hands for the first time,—be had stated these
facts, he said, and be should state othr facts, with the view
of demonstrating that the constitution of that house, instead'
of answering to this description of the gentlemen opposite,
had been a:constitution which had not existed for any fifty
years without such alterations %,1 the times required, and as
circumstances as they arose rendered, or were thought to ten.'
der, necessary. Well, then, as the representation was not
settled during the reign of the Tudor princes, It would
hardly, he thought, be contended that during the long civil
wars which prevailed under the Stuarts, and which embraced
a period which had been described, not unhappily, by a
foreign writer as " a revolution of 50years,"—it would hardly
be contended, he thought, that during that period the tepee-
aentatioo of the people-41x constitution of that house—was
any thing like settled. But during that period it was, that
those precedasts bed occurred which some of the gentlemen
opposite regarded with so much horror, and particularly the
change in the rdprosentation which had been effected by
Cromwell. Although sane gentlemen in our own times had
spoken of that change by Cromwell with horror, yet Loki
Clarendon,who was as much attached as any man could be to
the ancient institutions of the country , and who certainly had as
disrespect for monarchy or an hereditary peerage, had spoken
of that change as one which was " fit to be made by a meta
warrantable authority, and in better times" (hear, hear), and
was far from contemplating it with any thing like honor. la
proposing now a ce in the representation, he should
not. perhaps, be inc.lined utterly to condemn and disregard
the authority of Cromwell; but he would much rather take
what would be considered the lees objectionable testimony
of Lord Clarendon, and having now a more warrantable
authority and a better time, they had all that Lord Cla-
rendon thought necessary to justify a change in the tepee.
gestation, which theald make the representation more con.
Skint with the store and condition of the people. (Cheers.)
Daring the reign of Charles 11. whatever Might have been
the Male the repesesstedoe, he thought that be was jos.
tiled in @eying, diet it was not whit it now was. Per,
en a unamemile inestionv—die mission violent
dilthrenee arose between tbe two homes. The Commons
pawed the enelaels• bilk sad the menthols of that House
were generally la latest of It; but the Bill was rejected
la the Henn of Lords by a @nisei as large, he believed,
.se two to one. The Mmj immsdiately bad recourse to
hie prerogative of dissolution, and, upon the assembling of
a sew parliament, one of the Melt Ministers, a Secre-
tary or &ate. bowleg proposed eniendment tw the et-
-4 MN, which bid- bets apda brought termed, be
aot dad a single Member in the Hesse who wail

uthesecnioeHndeauthpsepeeanoainf
mbuotitwasiuiteeavititduetnedt
that
it
atthweays
nonect:odt:ns was not con
ment . This single fact was a pro is tin.
at
present. They had the same names, the same forms, the
longer bad the same popular control. lie now came to that
glorious period of our history the period of the Rev' itt.
tion- from which period, he knew, many persisted in
dating the existence of our constitution ; and denied that
political memory should extend beyond the year 1688. One
of the first declarations Which Was made by the first Parlia-
ment of William 111. was a declaration that elections ought
to be free : and the very first act which was passed in the
second session of King William's first Parliament was, an
act which declared that the Lords of the Cinque Ports had no
right to nominate members of Parliament, as they had here.
totore unjustly and unlawfully assumed that they bad a right
to do. During the period immediately succeeding the revolts.
tion there never 64 been any number of years its the course
of w hich the Home of Commons had not, by act of Parlia.
went or by declarations, declared or enacted that elections
ought to be free, and by the people unrestrained, uninterfered
with, and uncontrolled. He would read to the house the
preamble of an act which hid been passed in the reign of
George 11. and which recited an act of Edward I. Hy the
way, it had been thought great pedantry in him on a former
*evasion, to quote a law of Edward I. but the legislators of
the time of George 11. had not considered it the part of
pedant. to recite an act of that prince in one of their own
measures. (Hear, hear.) The preamble to which he alluded
ran as follows :—" Whereas, by the ancient common law of
this land, all elections ought to be free : and whereas by au
act passed in the reign of 'King Edward I. of famous me-
mory. it is commanded, upon great forfeiture that no
man, by force of arms, nor by malice, or menacing, shall
disturb any to make tree election ; mid forasmuch es the
freedom of election of members to serve in Parliament is of
the utmost consequence to the preservation of the rights and
liberties of this kingdom," dec. Now.when this and so many
other acts and declarations of that house had laid it clown as
a principle that elections ought to be free, could it have been
intended to say, that if a gentleman's gardener nomi-
nated at his pleasure two persons to represent a particular
place, such an election was a free election ? (Hear, hear.)
Ito; this was not, could not have been, the meaning of the
persons who passed these acts, and made these declarations.
And yet they bad been told in these our own days—and they
had been told it by a very great authority—nay, even a peti.
don had been presented to the last Parliament upon this
very ground—that a certain number of the members of that
house ought to be sent there, not by the free election of the
ptople, but by the nomination of individuals; and that a
certain other number of the members ought to sit there by
virtue of the 1,0001. or 1,2001. which they paid to particu-
lar gentlemen who sent them there. (Hear, hear.) Now a
learned friend of his, the Judge Advocate, had argued, with
great force and ability, that this constitution, of which the
component parts were nomination and money, be it ever
so excellent, was not such a constitution as it was possi.
ble for any eloquence, or any reasoning, to persuade the
people to think excellent, or even decent ; for that the
plain common sense of the people could not be blinded
to the fact that such a constitution was in direct de.
fiance of all the laws and regulations, and statutes,
and declarations, of the house itself. (Hear, hear.)-.
Ile must be allowed to say that, in his opinion, it was
Impossible to controvert this argument. If they meant to
say_that it was right that some members should be sent
to that house by nomination, and some by money, for
what purpose was it that they bad enacted which de.
clued that elections ought to be free,_ and in the people ;
for what purpose was it that they had so repeatedly de.
dared that they would pursue to the uttermost, and puoish
with rigid severity, all bribery and corruption ? It would
be difficult to answer these questions ; and gentlemen find.
ing it to be so, turned round and said that the people
were not enlightened enough to enders and the beauty
of the system, and that, instead of attempting to
reform the system, they ought to employ themselves in
teaching the people to respect and love the deformities
of it. Allow him, however, to say that this was as imprac.
ticable as the maintenance of the system. It was impos-
sible that they could successfully persevere in their endea.
your to maititain these laws and this practice, which wets
directly at variance with each other. The language which
they held to the people was in effect this—" We will change
neither the law, which is one way, nor the practice, which
is another way; we will retain both ; the greater the vice
knee which is dose to your understanding, the more ere-
duious you ought to be ; and the darker and the deeper
the mystery may be, the more worthy It is of your wee-
ship.' (Cheers, and a slight cry of Hear, hear, from Seat
hen. member of the opposition.) The boo. members for Ox-
ford might think this was quite right ; but seeing neither*.
tics nor good sense in it, they (the ministers) would never
attempt to govern by such means ; and while they scorned m
appeal to passion or to prejudice, they never would embark
in the hopeless work of practising a delusion upon the corne
mon sense of the nation. During that period, however,
when, as be had already said, there was a very rigid main-
teatime of all those laws and decisions which provided for
the free election of members to that house, that took place
which was likely to take place in every constitution framed
by human hands, namely, the introduction of abuses which
Illoterfered with that freedom of election for which the
laws and statutes, and the resolutions of the Commons
I House of Parliament had provided. If he understood say
thing of the history of this country since the revolution, he
took it to be a fact that about a century ago, when the
abuses to which be alluded first crept into the constitution. a
number of the members of the bone, were elected by a
small number, and that, generally speaking, a small
number of individuals did, in many of the towns and boo
roughs from which members were sent, represent fairly
enough the feelings and opinions of the burgesses there. He
did not mean to deny that such bad been the fact ; bat as
it was discovered in the course of our constitution that the
influence in the return of members to parliament was a very
valuable species of property, men who wished to obtain that
influence at this time by means of the great properties width
they possessed, so perverted and altered the spirit of this
institution, that the selections made by a few peruses, belle
corporate freeholders or freemen in those different be.
roughs, became, in fact and effect, not elections made hi*
by those electors themselves, but elections made soder
the control and the direction of the individuals who
bad obtained an _influence in the way he had ma-
dotted in those several boroughs.—(Cries of " Hots
hear.) He bad looked into a very excellent work which had
been published by Mr. Browne Willis on this subject, for
some instances to show how these abuses had crept into ow
constitution; and the instance which he bad selected for
quotation be did not suppose would be considered an unfair
one, for it was that of the borough of Tavistock. Acconl•
lag to Mr, Willis, in the year 1716 thus were 110 electors
polled at the election for Tavistock. Now, looking at the
return of that borough then, and the amount of its popu-
lation, it would certainly appear to have been fairly repre-
sented. Of the members whom the electors then returned
to represent that borough, one he believed was me.
trident of the town, and the other member was, as
was generally the case, one of the gentry of the county
in which that borough was situated. At More
period, /however —he could not tell exactly when,—the
Duke of Bedfo;d, having a great property in the neigh-
bourhood, brought up the freeholders, and in themes, of
time the constituency in the borough of Tavistock bourne
so diminished, that, according to a return which had been
made to Parliament this year, the number of electors there
amounted la 1827 to from 87 to 55. And although these
persons were not directly dependent upon the Duke of Bed.
ford, still it would be seen that so small a number of dea-
-1 tors was much more within the power and Influence of the
great proprietor, than the 110 electors would be, to which
amount the constituency of Tavistock extended, as he al-
ready said, about a century ago. The next instance which
be would select on the other side was the borough of Cam.
bridge. The number of electors in that borough in 1716
were about 800 ; that would seem to be a pretty fair consti-
tuency for that town at that time, and it would appear that
they exercised their privilege of elsctiag members freely and
to the best of their Ndgment ; for in looking at the return
of members which they made on that occasion, it would be
seen, taking the names as our g --and the names of
Cotton and Bacon were well known ia bridgeshire, that
they selected two gentlemen
rid who were both connected with
the county of Cam . With the name of air Jam Hyde
Cotton, cue of the members 0(11min:holm, everyone who was
familiar with the history of our country was acquainted.
He did not know whether the boo. members for the Vol-
versky of Cambridge, in their speculations about reform.
attended to Whit bad taken place in the borough of Cam-
bridge, which was so dose at band to them. Went
it would be mange if the thongs which had taken pis
there bad escaped the observation of those bra gee d&
ma. Ho believed the fact to be, that a banker M the tows
.41 Cambridge, possessed of eassiderabis inibeems with Ms
fellow-townemen, gave the whole power of the awparatirra
to the Duke of lindand, roceivWg whet be, no doubt. am-
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of Rutland. in point of fact and effect, obtained the power of
retureing the representatives for that borough, and the cense-
qt:e:•ce was, thr.t the noble duke sent two members for it to
that house, one of whom Awes a gentleman from Ireland, and
the other a noble lord connected With the county of Cam-
bridge. And here, in mentioning the country of one of
those Members, he could not avoid noticing the 'legumes'
which had been urged against them In the last Parliaments
tl:at they were about to destroy the representation of England;
(Loud cries " Hear, hear.") The new Members of the
present Parliament would perhaps scarcely believe it to by a
fact, but a fact it was, that His Majesty's Ministers had bests
• charged, in the last, Parliament, pith the intention and view
of endeavouring to diminish the Eng!ish representation, and
to rob Erigland of her due proportion of members. Now that
.the contrary would be the effect of the bill proposed by his
Majesty's ministers, would be plain from a moment's caa-
.i.tleration. For whereas at present, under the existing system
.certain individuals of great property, and possessed of in.
IBtience in certain boroughs, had the power of returning as
:member. for them, gentlemen from Ireland, or Scotland,
.she t.Vest Indies, the East Indies, or any other place they
;Iterified, the obvious effect of the measure proposed by
Otis Majesty's ministers would be to restore the 'power of
zhoosing their representatives to those towns front which
it had been taken, who had enjoyed that privilege during
the course of centuries, and of which they had been
cleptived only within the last fifty or sixty years. Now
that might not be a very wise thing to do t but to say thet
it was robbing England of her fair share and proportion
of representation was, of all pretences, the moat unfound-
ed assertion that had ever been made in the Parliament
of this country. (Cheers.) Ile. had observed, by the way,
that an argument ,of • somewhat similar kind bed been
single use of by an hon. baronet in a pamphlet which he
bad publiebed on this subject. That bon. baronet asserted
that the effect of the measure would he, to deprive the small
country gentlemen of the influence which they had hitherto
possessed in the representation, and to throw the whole influ-
ence and power of sending members to parliament into the
bands of the great landed proprietors, and the persons con-
nected with trade and manufactures. Now he must say, that
in making such an assertion as that, the hon. baronet bad
only proved that he was entirely and completely Ignorant of I
the past history, and of the present times and circumstances,
of this country. If that bun. baronet would take the pain,
of looking into the returns which had been made to Patna.
menu, he would find that during a long course of years in the
history of the various small boroughs, they had been accus-
tomed to send small country gentlemen and other persons'
connected with them, as their representatives to parliament,
and that the cessation of that practice had been one of the
degrading effects of the changes which had taken place of,
late years in the constituency and representation of those,
small boroughs. (Hear, heAr.) It was plain, therefore,
that whatever might he the faults or errors of the reform
measure, the last that could be fairly imputed to it was
any tendency to diminish the fair influence of country gen.l
denten in the neighbourhood of boroughs and towns
sending members to parliament. He should state to the
house another instance iu proof of the diminution which
had been effected in the constituency of various boroughs
and towns. The electors of Plymouth, in 1696, amounted
to 200; they subsequently increased, be believed, to about
500, but they were not now near so many. The number
•f electors in Portsmouth, which bad been a century ago
400, had been diminished to 59. He could mention various
instances of other places in which the constituency was
much larger a century ago than it was at present. It ap-
peared, therefore, that while those towns themselves be.
came enlarged—while their population was augmented,—
while their trade and wealth had been increased,--and
while, in short, they were in continual progress towards
prosperity and augmentation, their most valuable corpo-
rate rights and privileges, connected with the return of
representatives to Parliament, had been lessened, and
their constituent body bad sustained a considerable di-
minution. (Hear.) So that, in fact, while in those bo.
roughs and towns a great increase had taken place of those
who ought to be electors, an actual diminution had occurred
in the number of those who were electors there. These
changes and corruptions, throwing as they did the power
of returning a number of the members of that house into the
hands of a very few individuals, could not escape the ob.
servation of the public. The consequence was, that the ne.
ceselty of a reform in the Commons House of Parliament at
length attracted the attention of the country; and now fee
nearly fifty years the debates upon that important question
had been carried on with more or less animation, exciting
more or less attention both in that house and out of it. In the
course of that contest several great men had taken part in it
on one side or the other. The part of reform was advocated by
the great and vigorous mind of Chatham, by the manly un-
derstanding of Fox, and by the talents of Mr. Pitt, not in
his boyhood, but after he had been six years prime minister
of this great country. He then declared, that he was still of
opinion that if the French revolution was not then raging,
it would be desirable to make such alterations in the re-
presentative system of this country, as might have the ef-
fect of securing and permanently establishing the rights and
liberties of the people of this empire. Against reform theca
appeared the name of Mr. Burke, who brought all hie
classic and commanding language to that cause. After him
we had, on the same side of the question, Mr. Canning,
whom tve bad so recently to deplore, and who, he (Lord
J. Russell) was sure, had for some time delayed that con-
summation, which would otherwise have arisen. He was
bored to add, that hit. Pitt, at a later period of his life,
denied that we wasted that change in the representative
system which he declared, in 1794, it would be useful, de.
sirable, and fit to introduce. (Hear.) He should not
proceed further into the long details connected with the
history of this question. He thought he might fairly say
that, as it was usual in this country to allow a question to
be a long time under discussion before a final decision was
come to upon it, be repeated be thought that he might
fairly say that SO years constituted a sufficieutly long pro-
bationary period for that purpose, and flow that Ms Ma-
jesty had called them together for the express object, the
question of reform appeared to him (Lord John Russell)
prepared and ripe for final determination, and they might
enter upon the consideration of it without the imputation
of having undertaken it rashly or unadvisedly, or abasing
approached its decision without the exercise of all that cau-
tion and deliberation which charactererized parliamentary

and political discussions. But though reform in the repre-
sentation of the people bad been so many years discussed
in this country, without any progress having been made in
it, the same could not be said of the representation in the
two sister kingdoms, Scotland and Ireland. With regard to
them there had been no respect for vested rights—no such
religious horror touching the right of boroughmongers to
return members to Parliament, which had been manifested
in England. With regard to Scotland, they had the high
authority of Lord Somers,for sweeping together the knights,
citisena, and burgesses of Scotland, and reducing them to
45, which was one-third less than the original number
of the representatives of that country. And here he
would beg to be allowed to say one word with regard to
Lord Somers. His was a name which the admirers of an.
tiquity were 'in the habit of quoting as a great authority
on their side, though, during the course of his life,
from rest to last, he had been the advocate and the
supporter of several great changes. He commenced his
political life by publishing what he called a just vindication
of Parliament,—of that Parliament which had pronounced
the exclusion of the next heir from the throne. His next
act was to assist in dismissing one King from the throne,and
in bringing in another. 1 his next act was to call the HOMO
ef Hanover to the throne of these realms; and the other
act, for which be was most distinguished, was the unless'
with Scotland, which parcelled out and divided the repass
sentation of that kingdom. Whatever, therefore, might be
said by Lotel Somers, he could not be quoted but as a fries'
to innovation, and as a man who, when circumstances is.
quired that a change should be made, was always ready to
effect it where its introduction was calculated to est&
blish more permanently and securely the rights and liberties
of the people of this country.—(Hear, bear.) The Scottish
union could not be said to be a slight change. He held is
kis band a protest which had been entered on the journals
of the House of Lords against it by certain peers at the time
of its accomplishment, and they appeared to view it as a
very serious matter indeed. They protested against the all
of union with Scotland on the following grounds Ba
cause the constitution of this ►ingdom has been so very en.
cellent, and therefore justly applauded by all our neighbours
for so many ages, that we cannot conceive it prudent its.
change It, and to venture at all those alterations made by
this bill, some of them especially being of such a nature
that, as the Inconvenience and danger of them (in our hum;
bit opinion) is already but ton obvious, some think le
more proper and decent to avoid entering further into the
particelar apprehension we have from the pawing of this
law." The protest, couched in this language, bad auached
to it the names of Beaufort, Buckinghun, and &owe%
(Hear, bear.) Was Lorei Somers deterred from his purpose
by this proles:? IX4 be go hack from the project which
he had undertaken of effecting an union between the two
countries because thine peers had deno.nced it as a danger•

nus change? Quite the contrary—be peravered In dfecting
his purpose; and in a speech which be left behiud bi:n, he
completely answered the objections which bad been raised
in this protest to the plat of the union. As to the first objec-
tion, " That too sudden alterations are dangerous," he says,
" this is certainly true, unless where the most manifest
danger arises from the delay Itself." (Loud cheers.) Let
gentlemen now, if they liked, quote Lord Somers as an
authority against change and against reform. Adopting his
sentiments, be (Lord J. Russell) would say that greater
danger arose from delaying reform than from adopting that
me . (Hear.) He would call upon the house not to
be influenced by any fears touching the constitution when
reform was .propoled, and not to be frightened by those
alarmists who spoke of its. destruction. A reference to the
history of the country would show that every change had
been met and opposed by similar expedients, that similar
fears had been excited, and similar alarms had been propa-
gated ; and that they had hien, as certainly as they had
been put forth, as certainly disappointed in the course of
some 10 years, after the changes in question had been ef-
fected, and that the constitution which was to be destroyed
and abolished, bad actually derived fresh force and vigour
from those very changes which the ignorant worshippers of
antiquity bad predicted as its destruction. (Loud cheers.)
Such was the change which had been made to Scotland.—
The Scotch politicians at the time wanted to get a cer-
Jain number of reptesentativa, and they complained of
the inequality of the representation as compared with that
of England. It was answered to them that Scotland should
have 45 representatives, and in that practical and sensible
manner (cheers and laughter from the Opposition) that great
question with regard to the representation in Scotland was
settled by the greatest men of that time. Let them now
turn for a moment and see what had been done with regard
to the representation of Ireland. With whom did the great
change which had been made in the represttttation of Ire-
land originate? Had it been effected by some audacious
Whig, or was it the work of some radical, anxious to de-
stroy the Monarchy and the Ilouse of Lords? No such
thing--the measure of reform in Ireland, which parcelled
out and destroyed a number of boroughs, was a work
effected by the band of Mr. Pitt. the memory of whom
certain gentlemen were in the habit of meeting to celebrate
(Hear, hear), and whose name had been very strangely em-
-1 ployed a a spell and a talisman to oppose the progress of
reform (Loud cheers.) That was a change which was made
not many years ago; but there was another change in the
representation of Ireland, which had taken place still more
recently, and to which lie (Lord J. Russell) had referred
when he brought forward this question before the last Par-
liament. He said at that time, that if they talked about vest-
f ed rights, the 40.. freeholders of Ireland had as much claim
! to their privileges of which they had been deprived, on the
ground of vested rights, as had Beeralaton or Clacton' or any
of those boroughs which they were told to reverence. To that
statement he had never since heard a satisfactory answer.
True it was, that the right hon. gentleman opposite had very
fairly said, " make out a case for destroying the franchises of
I those boroughs as clear as the case which I think was made
out for taking away the franchise from the 40a. freeholders,
and I will consent to do so." But that was not a satisfactory
answer to the argument which he (Lord J. Russell) had put
forward, as derived from the disfranchisement of the Irish 40s.
freeholders. What were the reasons and the grounds on
which the house had been called upon to disfranchise the 40s.
freeholders ? Was it not, in the first instance, because they
were so dependent on their landlords that they could Lot ex-
ercise a free choice in electing their representatives ?—be-
cause they were driven up to the poll? (hear, hear, hear,)
—because they wet: carried up in crowds by the agent of
the estate to vote, without knowing whom they were to
vote fur, or why they exercised their franchise ?—and there.
fore it was said, that that sacred trust should not be left in
such improper hands ? Now he (Lord J. R.) would main-
tain, that the voters in • nomination borough were as Com-
pletely dependent upon the beck of the proprietor, as were the
40s. freeholders upon the will of their landlords. Another
reason had been assigned at the time for their disfranchise.
went—namely, that they were men so ignorant as to be
acted upon by their priests, and that they were carried by
them in crowds to vote, thinking that their salvation depended
upon their giving a vote for a particular man. It was said
that either their dependence on their landlords, which de-
prived them of free-will, or their dependence on their priests,
which prevented them from exercising their judgments,
was sufficient to disemide them to the franchise. Now he
(Lord John Russell) would ask, whether. In the boroughs
which were contained in the schedules A and B, there was
not a similar dependence on the parr of the voters on the will
of the proprietor ? He would assert, that the fact was, that
in those boroughs the electors were either under the direct
influence and absolute dominion of some individual who pro-
posed the representative whom they were to choose, or they
were what they would call themselves independent electors,
who were always ready to vote for a particular candidate,
on the condition of receiving a bribe • thus violating the
laws of parliament, and committing an offence for which they
could be severely punished in the courts below, and foe which
they would be called to the bar of that house. With regard
to those boroughs which had been convicted of gross corrup-
tion, and the electors in which, like the 40s. freeholders, could
not exercise a free choice in selecting their representatives
they propose to disfranchise altogether the smaller: and
closer ones, and to purify the others in order to restore our
representative system to what it ought to be according to
the words, the letter, the spirit, and what be hoped before
long would be the practice, of the constitution. (Cheers.) He
would now proceed to consider what was generally the pre-
sent state of our representation. It might be described In a
very few words. It consisted, in the first place, of all those
boroughs which returned members to Parliament at the will
of individuals. Nine peers possessed 52 of those boroughs,
returning 64 members. These were boroughs where the num-
ber of voters was small, but where they disposed of their votes
as they pleased. (Mar.) There were some other boroughs
and towns where there was freedom of election, and some
counties where the elections were free and open, but where
the expense of a contest was so great and heavy as to deter
many from contesting them, and to nearly ruio those who
did so. He would only beg gentlemen to recollect the gene-
ral election in 1026. They might remember on that occa-
sion the occurrence of cases of every kind of bribery and
corruption—the treating in large masses merewho were several
days after brought up drunk to the poU to vote for the candi-
date who had given them five guinea; more than the one who
was opposed to him, eltogether the display of most disgusting
scenes of every description. He confidently trusted that we
should not again witness the recurrence of such scenes. Not
the least consideration attached to this matte? was that
which regarded the utter recklessness of principle mani-
fested by those persons who were ready to give their votes
only for those candidates who would come up to their pike.
He could not bring himself to think that such a state of the
representation as that was a fit one for such a great and en-
lightened country as this ; but that, on the contrary, it
was shocking to behold a majority of the members of
that House, returned there by only a few indi.
dividuals. But, shocked as he was at that, he was still
more shocked that our elections should furnish occasion
for the exercise of every species of perjury, drunkenness,
and corruption. (Hear, hear.) Looking at the matter
in the light of policy and wisdom, be would say that be was
shocked to behold in several places of great wealth and in-
telligence, and with a numerous populaion, a vast num
her of the people who were fully qualified for the exer.
vise of the elective franchise, possessed of no influence
whatever in the election of their representatives. (Hear.)
Now His Majesty's Ministers proposed to alter that
system, and they proposed to introduce in its stead a
better system of representation, altering as little as
possible the system which at present existed. (A laugh
from the opposition.) They proposed to place the
elections far counties, cities, and btoihe, upon the true
and proper constitutional basis. According to their scheme,
about 150 members would be sent from the counties, the
gr:at majority of which counties would be separated into two
divisions, thus affording a large population to each division,
and presenting many advantages to the people in the exercise
of their elective rights. He was aware that some persons
hid imagined that the proposed divisions of the counties, so
far from being advantageous to the extension of popular
rights, or popular influence, would have the effect of giv.
ing to a small number of persons in those districts the
means of carrying every thin
_Now, that such would
pot be the effect, might be gathered from the fact that those
counties which it was proposed to etat into divisions, pos-
sessed an average population of from 70,000 to 10,1.00
persons. The Dent change mantling to their scheme would
bring perhaps 120 member, from the great cities, and somas,
not *mink, such towns as Menchatere Leeds, .mud She&
field, whkit were eldgdsti frosts present system, of, revive
saltation. Thew propelled' to slit eneigiers to the rea
towns, and to tke great mantilllettirlng • diatilete. . They
would give FfPriWatlltives Vr.°l4”PoelloPc, to.
the cotton tpanntactikre , to tip „awl .coptlytiltictro,
'the potteries, mato all these• Ih as with Which
;trade, industry, and wealth were ednitested.' minty% .
government were impressed with the principle that those

greet Interests should have their own representatives In
parliament, who would be enabled to watch over and
to protect them. He would ask when, after that great
change had been effected, they would have, for inctanee,
a deputation coming from Leeds to consult his noble friend,
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, respecting any proposed
change in the laws relating to trade and manufactures?
There would be no necessity for deputations of that de-
scription. They would have their members in that hour,
who would be fully acqnsinted with their interests, apd
who would be ready, from their seats there, to esplain
what the interests of trade and the interests of the coun-
cil` in general demanded on the subject. Thus by ca-rylitg
that plan of reform into effect, they woold obtain a
number of Members Into that House who might not per.
haps amuse them with declamatory and eloquent speeches,
but who would be capable of rendering practical and sebum-
Oa' service to the country, and to their constituents who
sent them to Parliament. He had now stated the repre.
seotation which their plan would afford to the landmi,
trading, sod manufacturing interests. But, according to
the system of representation as they proposed to establish
it, there was another class the introduction of which some
persons might be disposed to consider as a blot upon their
system, but the introduction of which he thought would
add materially to the stability and welfare of the country.
He alluded to a certain number of boroughs and towns,
with an average prom] ttitm of 4,000. 5,000, or 6,004,
which would send abnut one hundred 'ltemisers to parliament.
—The members likely to he returned from sue,)l
places would not be sent to Parliament to represent any
particular Interest, but would vote and speak in behalf of thp
general interests of e.e country. (Hear. especially frier
the opposition benches.) It had been suggested. that they
should disfranchise all the boroughs. and give more represep.
tatives to the counties and the large towns to represent the
commercial sad manufacturing interests. But, after Prrssid*
ing, as be conceived they had amply provided, for the repre-
sentation of those interests, there still was something wane-
ing. It was plain that there was a number of persons woke
could not be described as belonging to any of those interest},
but who were worthy to enter the walls of that house, mot
who were able to deliver their opinions there with advantage
to the country at large. It was to enable such men to get
into Parliament that theme boroughs would be retained. But
when he spoke of members of this description, he did not at ell
mean to convey that they should be returned by means of
nom nation. He meant that by a fair and free electioo
persona of this kind, obtaining the suffrages of the electois
of' those boroughs, who would be a much larger body chap
they were now, should find their way to that house.-.-
The house should bear in mind, that under the plan pro-
posed by his Majesty's ministers. the coned. ueney in thosp
boroughs which would be retained would be placed upon o
much more extended bails than it was at present. They
would increase the general body of the constituency in thp
following manner. In the first instance they proposed,
he had before explained, to give the right of voting to 101-
heuseholders in cities and town ; and in counties they pro-
pns.d to extend it to freeholders, copyholders, and leaero
holders. They proposed to extend the right of voting in
counties to those persons who were leaseholders for a long
term of years, thus rectifying an omission in the former
bill; and they proposed that instead of the term of 14 years,
the term of 7 years should be sufficient for leaseholders paying
a rent of 501. a-year to entitle them to vote. Such would be
the constituency which would send members from the coon.
ties. With regard to towns, as he had already stated, the suf-
frage would be vested in householders and houses of the vs.
luc or rent of 101. a-year. There was nothing extraordinary
in granting this right to householders—it was in perfect
accordance with the true spirit of the constitution. During
the last half century, householders were not to be looked
upon in the same light u householders in the reign of
.Lmes I. He was of opinion that, according to the spirit
of the ancient constitution of this country, and the well.
known resolution of the House of Commons in the reign
of James I. householders of 101. a-year were fully en,
tided to the elective franchise In cities and boroughs. He
did not expect that bribery to any extent could prevail
under the operation of such a system as that proposed--
it would be effectually prevented by the regulations re.
spieling the votes. The provision for having the poll
taken in two days, coupled with the other provisions which
would be inserted in the bill, would tend in a considerable
degree to prevent the occurrence of those disgraceful scenes
which they so often witnessed at elections at present. as
well as to prevent bribery. On that subject be begged to
say, that though he did not count much upon the occur.
renee of bribery under the new order of things, yet that in
order to prevent effectually those scenes of bribery which
so usually took place at present at elections. he felt it his
duty if he could to go further in the way of precaution ;
and he bad to state that the attention of his Majesty's Go-
vernment had been seriously directed to the laws on the eta,
two book for preventing bribery and treating in the election
of members to serve in Parliament. Though they had not
as yet matured the provisions which it was their intention to
propose, he (Lord .1. Russell) touted that in the course of
the present Session, he should be enabled to present a bill to
the house, tending to make the law more effectual in pre-
venting and punishing bribery and corruption. (Hear.)—
Those who were acquainted with the house as it at present
was constituted, must be aware that the very nature of that
constitution stood in the way of, and tended to prevent, the
infliction of proper punishment on those who lad been guilty
of bribery and corruption. The argument which was usually
employed in such instances, and which had never been put
so strongly as by Mr. Fox. was to this effect—" Will you
punish the poor labourer who scarcely earns 10s. a week
for taking a bribe of ten guineas, when you have in your
neighbourhood—on the seats around you—members who.
upon a large scale, have either received or given sevual
thousands of pounds in the way of bribery T' That ugu
meat, he was convinced, had in a great degree prevented the
infliction of punishment on those who were convicted of
bribery. But such would not be the case under the
system of representation which his Majesty's Government
proposed to establish. When that system was In operation
reformers of every kind and degree would be found uniting
cordially in punishing those who should he found guilty of
bribery. He was well aware that there were those in that house
who were of opinion that it was in that way reform ought
to be carried on—that delinquent boroughs, when convicted
of bribery and corruption, should be disfranchised; and he
knew that there were persons who thought that such
a Reform would be sufficient to satisfy the people. He
had seen a declaration, published, to which was attached the
name of the noble lord who had stood forward as a reformer
in one of the northern counties, and who recommended a
Reform of that nature, alleging that convicted boroughs
should alone be disfranchised. In reply, be (Lord J. Rau-
-1 sell) would ask whether they should allow those boroughs to
continue to send members to Parliament who, though they
did not vote exactly for money, had made a traffic of their

seats, and, for considerations which were not Com-
putable in pounds, shakings' and pence, bad made the
representation in that house what it ought not to be,—a
matter of mere barter and exchange 1 (Cheers.) lie
would take this opportunity to answer a few objections,
and they were but few, which had been started ha va-
rious places in the country, and in various writings, to
the proposed plan of reform. The first objection, and
the mod general one was, that it was a plan tar more ex.
geodes than it was either necetsaary of useful that it should
be. The only answer which he could make to that objet.
don was, that it was only on the conviction that it was the
only plan that would satisfy the expectations of the people
that His Majesty's Ministers bad proposed it. It was to be
recollected that those who introduced it were not pledged
previously to propose of defend any particular mea-
sure of reform so extensive as that which bad been bronght
forward. Neither Lord Grey, nor the Lord Chancellor,
nor any other member of the cabiuct, who formerly advo-
cated reform, had ever expressed themselv s in favour of a
reform so extensive es this was. He thought it but fair to
state this in order to show, that being.pound by no promise
or pledge, and havingite opportunity of, doing less than
they
,had proposed, n, proposing wbst they did was a
proof of gee
,conviction on their minds that it was ab-
solkely teecessary to introduce so extensive a 'meanie
id,oeder se, estisfy the. just 'Execute°. of the people,
and, to sos ;be rowioatioci of
.s reform of that house,
which would secure the permanent stability of the.
throne, and preserve the authority of both Houses of
Parliament. (Loud cheers.) He might have said at
other time', tains a member from each of these be-
roughs, and Kiting them to large towns would satisfy.
'the people ; but he was, nqw well convinced that if a
plan less extensive than the present wets proposed it woald
not be, like the present otie,:calculated to be pctenanent mad
lasting. (loud cheering.) Without such a plea as this,
while they would imagine that they would be establishing
a.psrotansse, retain,: they . would he salt *yin the
ground opts fee ka1441111.1**14 Llo44ol,Mis tr .111*- 0P -
poi:Aim, reAchea frimantiniPOW,l9ll anti PPS,'
Ing the country torliecu s as to tnewoettarivi god NOW?
sum of refeem;:usid that at a tinae.whea the .affaisa of this
country could ill bar it, while they would have lost the op-

portunity of satisfying the people. (Hear, hear.) Is propos-
ing such a measure as this he was aware •hat his Majesty's
ministers had made themselves the objects of obloquy and
abuse, but they derived satisfaction from the conviction,
that If it was once carried, Parl'arnent would then apply
itself to the 1 pressing interests of the country, with-
cut being afraid that the people would not regard them as
mindful of their Interests. —( Hear, bear.) The Inequality
of the plan had been made a matter of objection to it; and
it was asked, why give to Tavistock and Knaresborough
as many representatives as such populous towns as Ha-
Mat and Bradford? But Inconsistencies of this kind
could not be justly considered grievances. Wherever a
practical evil was pointed out which called for redress, a
remedy was applied to it; but they trusted that they
should be able to defend this want of uniformity in the
plan against those who attacked it. Did those who raised
such an objection propose it with a view that the plan
should be made more equal? It would be curious
enough if they did, seeing that they were the defenders
of the existing system. It might be some inequality that
favistock with 4,000 or 5,0e0 inhabitants should send as
many members as Halifax with 20,000 inhabitants, hut was
it not worse that such places as (Litton and Old Sarum
should send as many members as many of the most pope.
lois places ? They got rid of that anomaly ; and their plan
of representation. if not quite regular, was far more so
than the existing system. He supposed that all those
who raised this objection were reformers of some sort
or other. If so, they lost the benefit of the argument
put forward by the anti-reformers as to the good effects
of the irregularity and anomaly of she present system.
" Irregularity and anomaly I confess to exist, but I would
.leave them as I found them." That was Mr. Canning's
argument, and a strong one it was in his mouth. Bet
the strong ground thus taken by Mr. Canning and the
Duke of Wellington was abandoned by their less skilful
successors, who railed against irregularity and anomaly,
while they were the defenders of a system which was filled
with both. (Hear.) He would confess, that when be saw
them take this line of conduct, he was disposed to say, like
Oliver Cromwell upon seeing the Scotch army descend
from the hills into the plains, " The LORD has delivered
them into my hands." (Cheers.) Besides the defect of nut
having made a perfectly symmetrical plan of reform, he
was charged with having taken an unfair basis,—with
having endeavoured by such an unfair means to promote
the views and objects of private interests, and to benefit
particular individuals. His answer to these charges was,
that he took the original plan or measure from a very
well known statistical book, in which, however, were to
be found some local errors and many doubts. Gentlemen
had since said that he was strangely inconsistent in taking
population as the basis. instead of being guided by the num-
ber of 101. houses. He would call the attention of the house
to what would have been the result if he had adopted the
plan of these gentlemen. He had not adopted it, because It
would have involved an unfairness and an inequality in the
manner of ascertaing the number of these houses. Errors
bad been suspected or anticipated in the returns, and his an-
ticipations had proved correct. The mode that had been
adopted was to write letters to certain authorities, to
refer to the parish officers, and send persons Into the
neighbourhood of the boroughs, to ascertain the exact
number of the ten pound houses. (Hear.) The rusk
of these inquiries varied so excessively from the returns
that had been given into the the tai.ollice, as to show that
he had been well founded in his doubts. He would beg 1 ave
to read a few cases of boroughs in which these errors were
prominent. In the borough of Arnershro, according to
the tax-office returns, there were 25 101. houses, but upon
examination the number proved to be 126. It was found
that Ashburton, instead of 54 had 314 101. houses, if not
327. Christchurch, instead of 80, had about 300.
Shaftesbury, instead of 75, had 155. Think, instead
of 75, had 110. Wilton, instead of 34, had 150; Wy.
comb, instead of 206, had 446 , and Westbury, instead
of 14, had 318 houses. He held in his hand a list of
67 boroughs in which these discrepancies had been proved
between the tax-office returns and the actual fact. With
respect to other boroughs the difference was net very ma.
t Let him be allowed to show what would have
been said by his opponents, if he bad taken implicitly these
tax.offfce returns. It would have been urged against him,
that he had taken returns which notoriously varied, accord.
ing to the caprice or favour of every tut-collector of a dis-
trict. The tax-collector bad his friends to oblige or his neigh-
bours whom he would not be very likely to offend, and he
=that their taxes should not be too great ; and had he
J. Russell) adopted these official returns as his bias,
the outcry would have been, that be had, to suit his ins
purposes, taken these u a rule, instead of adopting the basis
of population. His opponents would have said, that ammo.
!see was taken front boroughs which had 7,000 inhabitants,
while Tavistock was left untouched because it had above
200 houses. "This," his opponents would lave said, " is
what you call fair. You take this house.tex as a supreme
rule, because It is in favour of your boroughs, instead of tak-
ing the plain, correct rule of population, and which you
could have no doubt that you ought to have taken, if you
had known any thing about the business you have in hand."
This was the sort of attack to which be should have been
exposed. What he had done, however, had not been for
the sake of avoiding such attacks, but for the sake of
the measure itself. There were, however, two places
which could not be comprehended in the plan which be
had proposed to himself. The places were so small,
that to have included them in the plan would have been
to have left the nomination of representatives in the buds
of individuals. The first of these places was in the borough
of Downton, and the noble earl who possessed the borough
was the person ro call his attention to it. (Hear, bear )
He had made Inquiries, and be had thought it consistent
with his duty to make this borough an exception to the ge-
neral rule, and include it in the schedule of disfranchise-
ment. The other borough was a mere straggling village of
fishermen. He alluded to the borough of Ik. Germaine. He
should be told, no doubt, that in including these two bo.
roughs within the line of alisfrancisement, he was departing
from the rule whirl he had so strictly laid down, and be
should be unable to deny that in these two particular in-
stances be he had udeubtedly done so. (Hear, bear,
hear.) But In point of fact, it was impossible to draw
a line so so straight or to make any tole so definite,
that men might not afterward find that change,
might be made in particular places. He had now done
with the explanations of his plan, and with the main part
of the objections that had been urged against it. The only
remaining task which be bad to perform was one of a
very comprehensive nature. Persons might say, " Well,
after all, what benefits will really be derived to the peo-
ple from this very extensive change In the representa-
tion ? Will this great reform give the people more to at
and drink ; will it give them better habitations, will it
improve them in morals or intelligence. or will it net leave
them in these respects precisely as they are P" To those I
who asked whether reform would give the people mom to
eat and drink, he would say that this was totally irrelevant I
to the matter. The question was one of constitutional
principles. He should think it as reasonable to say to
his noble friend the Chancellor of the Eschequer, when
he took off the tax on coals—" this taking off of taxes
will not improve the eustitution," as to have it said
to him, this reform bill will not tend to give the peo-
ple superior comforts." He was not one of those who
doubted the tbeory upon which the objection was
(alluded. Ile had been very far from holding out any
temptation of immediate and direct benefit to arise front
this measure, in order to persuade the people into
the adoption of it, lest they might be dissatisfied at
finding he did not realise the promises be bed given, or the
hopes be bad excited. But when be said this, be must also
be allowed to declare, that he did not hold the theory which
bad been advanced by the late Earl of Liverpool in a speech
be made In the other boost
0 How small of all the ills which men endure,
" The part which Kings or laws can cause or cure."
However well this doctrine might be made to appear in
theory, be was convinced that it was mischievous and to-
tally false in politics. If they compared one country with
another, it would be found that it was Kings, Lords, and
Governments, upon which in a great degree depended the
character and condition of the people. When, for instance,
he compared England with such a country as Spain—when
he a.uw the traveller in Spain stopped by the stiletto, and
murdered in the highway—and when be reflected upon
the perfect safety in which a person might pass dough
.all parts of England, be could , not refrain from saying,
ehat these were differences which, if not immediately,
were at least in the end • detived from the difference of go
,wernste, g . Was it possible for any lutelilgent person to
travel through coentries and not trace the characters and
conduct of the Inhabitants to the natant of their iouitastioss
and government? When be proposed a reform of Paella.
'mom—when be proposed that the people should mod
into ibis house, their real representatives, to deliberate
on shelf wants, and to consult for their interests, to
consider their galsommees awl attend to their desire...
when be proposed that they should, in fact, as they

hitherto la id in theory, possess the vast power of koldiog
the purse-strings of the monarch—he felt eoiorlreed that hr
was laying the foundation of effecting the greatest chairs
In the comforts and wail-being 01 the people. Laws
would no longer be rassd insuch answerably fir the henefi:
of Government, or classes, or individuals—they would be 03
longer passed by men, rooted at It o'clock at right to we
for what they new not or against that of which they had
heard not a single syllable., merely because the leallerol their
Party told them as to rota. I Laws in a reformed Parliamsot
would be cautiouslpproposed, end seriously considered, and
deliberated. Who would maintain that governments could
do nothing with respect to the misery or happiness of a peo-
ple ? Let those who mite the assertion look at Ireland.
‘Vhat was the cause of the wretched state of Itel.sr.d tut the
want of a due, parental, kind attention on the part of Ciu-
vernment to the condition of the people a want of a fellow
feeling on the part of the supreme legi.lature towards the
great mass of the population of Ireland? If they identi-
fied that house with the people of the three kingdoms.
they might hope that the prosperity of eke country was se-
complisbed. In martini themselves to give to an enligh• -
'fled and peaceful people the hawk of having their repre-
sentatives assembled within the walls of parliament. they
would furnish the means of carrying on unimpaired the
constitution, without endangering the prerogatives of the
crown, without injuring the authority of the houses of par
'lament, and according to the rights; liberties, and int
of the nation. Those rights would be duly protected by
the faithful representatives of a free people, and by the
loyal subjects of a generous Sovereign. (Hie lordship
sat down amidst the lend cheers of the boom, which were
reiterated and continued with great enthusiasm.

Sit ROBERT PEEL said that hie object In rising at
that moment was to make a very few observation., and
which, in hi. opinion, would tend to the convenience of
all parties and he trusted that, if he did limit himself to
thou observations, he should not be precluded from en-
tering into the subject on a future occasion am the ground
of his baying spoken before. The Noble Lord who had
brought forward the motion, was entirely wrong io sup-
' posing for a moment that so important.a measure would
be permitted to go to a Committee witholt an snakes and
lengthened discussion. (Cheers from the opposition.) The
noble Lord had concluded his speech by saying that he
had summed up the arguments in favour of the bill, as
well as the main °Avalon; that bad been made to it,
but he (Sir Robert Peel) trusted that the mile lord would
permit him and his friends to state for themselves their ob-
jections, though, at the same time, he had no further wish
at the present moment than to advance his claim to a full.
free, and fair discussion upon the principles of the bill, and
upon the manner and the degree in which it involved all the
permanent and essential iweresta of the country. He was
willing to take the discussion, if it should appear to be the
general sense of the house, on the second reading (hear.)
Its the last session of parliament hare was given to intro.
duce the bill without any division of the house. Although
he did not perceive any essential alteration in the character
of the bill, he could not but recollect that there were in the
present parliament many members who had not been present
at :i.e discussion of the former bill in the last parliament.
The house could not but beer in mind that his Majesty's
recommendation from the throne had prodeccd fmm them
an answer that they would give an early and attentive con-
sideration to this subject. This, with the affairs of the
house combined, did induce him to waive any opposition
upon the first stage of the bill, and permit it to be brought
in without any division. If this should be the opinion of
other gentlemen, be should say that he did Wok that it,
commence a debate, wh ch was not to end in a divisive',
was a most incoovenient proceeding. He did not wish the
house again to be betrayed info a debate of six or seven
nights,which was to terminate without any division. He
would permit the bill to be read a first rime, and he was
even ready to forego the great temptation which the noble
lord bad given to reply to some parts of Ms speech. (Hear.)
He would forbear answering the satirical allusions of the
noble lord, for once to bekin a discussion would lead to
a protraction of a debate, which he very much wished
to avoid ; but if he abstaineti from makiag on, reply to
the noble lord's taunts or satire, be MOW that no Ink.
rence would be drawn that be abangemel.the right of
answering these awake, IMM were applkehls to. hint.
self and ea criers who Wale united with him In his op.
position te is measure. Fee his purpose, be fished but
fee one sainted dienualen 'en the principles of the bill,
peaks* to its !lei Wm the committee. Ha spoke, bow.
ever, merely as an imlividsaL He wished bat fee one full
and fair &made% but he also deskesd, tent lien tbat• dia-
musks did take plata, nothing shwa prevent Me *lag the
settee of the house imentbe enestine. (Chem Aids the
Opposit) It was mmt einfonemble to the seepteepar.
!lenient that both the dlicendeamel the division should take
pies on the second reatilitg. Pletflenel the Waage, would
give the new parliament mi ewenwalty of a Ai madders.
ties, previous to the die L.... He mend noweneeminy
lay.and when be odd Ms, he hoped he might appedmith
' coolidesee to thiamine hotbed pawned ow alter madam.
He wished for a remenakb dm% sod oak Ow he *Pk Bois
a free discussion. for beak! not seek it iffy any
pose. The The noble lord eiteald recollect that he %d& a
speech of two hours long. Preen this he (lie R. bad a
right to eoncleide that the noble lord considered the
subject was entitled to and deserving et a MI umiak
discussioa, and that his bill was to undergo' mei essiii.
ration. He hoped that before the house was oiled so the
I discussion, it would, in fairness, be put in pesseadon of the
I intention of his Nlajesty's Government with seep* tb the
bill of reform fur Ireland end Scotland. (Hete) !mile
speech the noble lord bad said noising of these beltsAsi the
last session he believed that the Irish reform Mime not
' brought in until after the main discussion, but yet the
house was aware of what really were the ante Lions of %is
Majesty's Government with respect to • the titiadan lb ht.
land. Without insisting on all the sechinal details odelpill
in a matter of tech immense importance, It was material
that before the House discussed the English bill, it should
know what his Majesty's Mitgateta proposed with respect
to the reform of the representation of Seodeed.:.• The
King's speech bad recommended the Howe weinake the
general question of Reform with reference to Inked sad
to Scotland, as well as to England ;and if the House
proceeded to fulfil the promises they had• gives in ,the
address, that they would proceed immediesser its sake
into consideration the question of reform, therimpabwaan
compliance with that address not certainly q prepaid ml is
the bills port passes, but still to seek to know what Was to be
done with respect to Ireland sod kotiaod. flu trusted
that be had fulfilled the preasiees with which he bottom-
Rimmed addressing the house, and had moaned bisisself
within the proposed order of proceeding. He had ontyle
express his hope that the noble lord would name a day kr
the secs,nd reading so distant, as to afford a fair keened *.r
the conaideration of the bill, nd yet not so Wog es ea prose
of any incocvenieoee to public taminesa. • Hvansetrei Was
in the interval the noble lord would put the bows in .iroo-
session of the intentions of his majesty's ministers with to
spect to :reland and Soodand. • • , • • • • • • •
Lord .1. RUSSELL said • it might not :homogenise
for parliament to bring in the Irish and &mob Rehm
Bills at the same time as the English—(Laughter in 'he
Opposition.)
it ROBERT PEEL mid, that being about te:atelle
such importanti=rB in the constituden, to Bt:Maim*
week for the •• wading would not be ale=st
much time for beneerable members to prepace h
(Hear, hear.) Wkh aspect to the bills for Irekndinell
emlaisd, bow was it peudWe to discuss the queetiematthe
reduction of English mombas, without knowing atnishing
of the representation Winded for the two other himpleme.
Ile trusted that Government would put the ileum*, thole
esofelence. Ile was idisserely anxious that they shoal
come to the argument without prejudice or acerbity Oise,.
ing. He therefore hoped that Government would accede W
he two demands.
Lord A LTHORP said, that if the sense of the house was
with the right hoc. gent. he had not the least objemisweit
accede. The changes of the Sands audirish Mem
not greater than those in the English, and threekwe
vernment supposed that they wee alr.ssly suillisody .well
known to the house, to allow a discussion en the English
bill.

Mr. STA N LItY . had Da obj,c.den un meg isawsui
for Ireland before the second reading of the ihrelhhollilL—a
He hoped bon. members opposite would also se
far as to allow it to be introduced to that ease et It
essadna. He wasted that the discoidal' as thollsglisitiat
wauld oat le egnewad so the readier of the. Santa semildist
11111,.as it was last,Session, andthst no each Bill there would
he a discussion on that Bill only.
Bit ROBERT PEEL said, that this was p he
slalbsi. All its wanted was, that before :
Beitik bin, they shoehl be. ite4)0111111dell, si• the teeeehens,
et iiovennuint with reelpeee .to the atheT bLIk., Hu
entirely in the propriety et as tasking the &melt
bilk ass tweasion foe reseideg the deseaselia
Usdasgsd the ioal•Aensaaa bit I honk this the
'porch of the hon. rotkaaaa. (A laugh.)