Star.
London, England, 1802-03-10 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Colonel LONO►etLD prefer ted a Peddon from the Debton
confined hi the Gaol of the City of Cork, praying relief.—Or-
dered to lie on the table.

Mr. Stamm gave notice that he Wald, on Thurfday next,
move for leave to bring in a Bill for diftinguilling the induf-
trims from other Poor, and hie more Weaselly controlling
the powers and examining the accounts of with Overfeers, ace.
The Hook in a Committee went through the One Mika
Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Report was ordered to be received
to-morrow.
The Report of the t',lnlilicatlon Indemnity Bill was received,
the Claufe for the Relief of Printers was agreed to, and he
Bill ordered to be read a third time tomorrow.
The Report of the Cinnamon Duty Bill was received, agreed
to, and the Bill ordered to be read a third time tomorrow.
An Account was prefented from the India-Houle of the co-
venanted Servants of the EA-India Company, with the dates
of their appointments, and the amount of their Salaries.

GOVIWIENT ACCIPTANCEII.
Mr. Ronson rote, purfuant to notice, to move
for the produaion of an account from the Sick
and Hurt Office, which was, he faid, of the ut-
molt importance, and which, from what had pat-
ted on the fubjea of a bill refuted to be paid at
that office, he thought it peculiarly his duty to
bring forward. Should the Houfe think proper
to accede to his Motion, he hoped to be able to
follow it up with the propofition of a meafure
which would be calculated to prevent the repeti-
tion of an event fuch as bad been to often alluded
to. It was not his will to perfift in the difcuffion
of this bufinefs, but he was goaded into it; for
words bad been put into his mouth which he had
nevei uttered, and his expreflions had been grofsly
mifreprefentcd. When he Rated the fan which
teemed to give fo much offence to the other fide
of the Houle, it was at firft doubted, then abfo-
lutely contradkled, and afterwards it was attempt-
ed to be evaded; it was alto threatened to have
his words taken down. This made it neceffary
for him to go farther. The Right Hon. Gentle.
man on the Treafury Bench appeared to be much
alarmed at the novelty of the incident relpeaing
the refufal of this bill, after having been twelve
months in office, and after four days enquiry.—
The Minifter will, bad the management of feventy
millions of the public money annually, came for-
ward and declared that the fiatement he had made
on this, queftion was corral, and that he, the Mi.
oilier, was ignorant that fuch things frequently
occurred at the Government Offices—a ftrong
proof, no doubt, of his vigilance and attention to
official duty. But if the Houfe would order the
produaion of the account he moved for, he pledg-
ed himfelf to prove a number of fuch-events at the
public offices, though what he on a former night i
defcribed was called a " folitary inftance" ; and
though he was treated by the oppofite fide of the
Houfe as if he had aliened a grofs falfehood, he
would prove that this prat:Hee of poftponing the
payment of bills goes to an extent that demands
the interference of Parliament. He fhould (hew,
that although the Chancellor of the Exchequer
had need that only one bill had been refuted, that
bills to the amount of feveral thoufand pounds
had experienced a fimilar fate. If fo, it timely
deferred the mot ferious enquiry, and he could
affure the Houfe, that fuch was the general ru-
mour, confirmed by letters which he had revived
from feveral refpeetable merchants in the city. He
would therefore appeal to the city Members, whe-
ther Government bills were as well regarded as to
punauality, as thofe of private Merchants ? He
had no doubt if he were to be guided by the fend-
ments of the City Merchants, they would join
with him in his endeavours to correa the evil com-
plained of. He hoped alto that Minifters would
fur once take his advice, (a laugh) and adopt a

Motion that mightlerve to prate& their cbarVler.
He then moved, "That there be laid before the
Houle an account of all bills drawn on the Sick
and Hurt Office, with the dates when drawn, when
accepted, when due, and when paid, from the t a
of December, tBoz, up to the latell period at
which the fame could be made out."

Mr. JONES fecoadeal the Motion.
Mr. DICKER sox, jun. difapproved of the condit4
of both parties engaged in the difcullion of this
bufinefs. He thought Adminiflration wrong in
feeling fo much alarm, and the Hon. Gentleman
on the oppofite fide not lefs wrong in perfiding in
a point certainly untenable as to the application he
feemed to make of it; for obvioully, the event he
alluded to regarding the bill at the Sick and l!tn
Office, had no more to do with the infolvency
Government than it could have with the payinc:.:
of the national debt—and he could not fee that ic
was material to the honour or charther of tl.i:
Hon. Gentleman to obtain the invelligation
propofed, or to perfevere in a difctillion of this na-
ture : and as the fentiments likely to be delivered
in the courfe of it might make an injurious im-
preffion on the Continent, where Newfpaper re-
ports had more influence than, from the g0,.,t
fenfe of the people, they could obtain in this
country—he ffiould oppofe the Motion.
The CHANCELLOR of the Excamyea agreed,
that too much importance had been attached to
this matter ; yet, as the Hon. Gentleman had de-
clared fo explicitly, at leaft in his conception, that
the Government was infolvent, he thought it his
duty, in jullice to the Country, the Government,
and that Houfe, to make the fulleft enquiry. .The
affertion of the Hon. Gentleman demanded that
attention. As to the obfervations of the I ion. Gen-
tleman this day, they were not more didingtiiffied
for accuracy than his obfervations ufually were. It
was not the fad that his flatements on a former
day refpeding the bill fo often alluded to, were
pofitively contradicted—the truth was, a. to him-
felf, that he then faid lie would enquire, and hate
the refult of his enquiry to the Houfe, but that did
not pre-fuppofe that fuch refult would be incon.
Rent with the flatement of the Hon. Centkman.
He was aware that it was not regular to refer to
former debates, but on this occation it was nee:A.-
fary, and he would obferve, that if he underfloor!
the Hon. Gentleman correctly, his remarks applied
to a fingle bill for 191. 135. 41 to that alone the
complaint was confined. Every particular, the, e-
fore, refpeding that bill, he bad endeavoured to
learn, and intlead of being four days engaged in
his fearch, as the Hon. Gentleman had mentioned,
he came down on Friday laft to report all the cir-
cumftances to the Houfe, but a debate going for-
ward on the American Treaty, after that had con-
cluded he intended to explain the fubjed if the
Hon. Gentleman had not previoufly left the Houfi:.
The Hon. Gentleman, in the outfet of his fpeec:.,
promifed to repeat the words he delivered on a foi-
mer evening, but he forgot that. He reeretttd
that the Hon. Gentleman had happened to be .tb.
feat yefterday when lie addreffed the Houfe on this
fubjed, for he feemed to have got a very inaccu-
rate account of what he' raid. The Chancel.
for of the Exchequer then repeated the fentiments
he delivered yefterday, refpeding the fyftem long
ailed upon by Government,okireventing any large
funss of money from accumulating in its inferior
offices—adding, that by rules eftabliffied for the re-
gulation of thofe offices, no department was al.
lowed to affift the other, if it happened to have
more than might be neceffary to fatisfy its own
wants. This arrangement was found to be advan•
tageous, with a view to order and to prevent con-
fufion ; but he challenged the Hon. Gentleman to
produce a fingle inftance of a Bill prefented to the
Treafury, where the credit of Government relides,
that immediate Reps were not taken to difcharge
it. In his invelligation of this occurrence at the
Sick and Hurt Office, he underftood from the
Clerks, Tome time in the office that the payment
of bills was, in many inliances;delayed for the lad
ro or 3o years, and that the practice was by no
means peculiar to a late period, as the Hon. Gen-
tleman would infinuate. The Hon. Gentleman in.
timated that he (Mr. A.) was alarmed at his afro,
don refpeding this bill; but he would affure him,
that he felt no fenfation of alarm—however fur.
prized he might be, that any Gentleman could
make a general affertion that "Government Ac-
ceptances were refufed at Public Oflices"—:era
founding that general affertion upon a folitary fad,
nothing firnilar to which he hoped would again
occur. With refped to the Motion before the
Houle, he did not fee that any pradical utility
could wife from it. The Hon. Gentleman sea;
confeffedly in poffeffion of but one fait, when he
made ufe of the extraordinary declaration as to the
infolvency of Government • and if he fhould now
be at liberty to bolter up that declaration by other
fads—even though he Ihould be able to collect
them—they could not go to juffify his charge in
the firft inftance. He would therefore oppofe the
Motion, becaufe he law no good it could produce,
unlefs it might ferve merely to put a record on
their Journals of the neglect of Tome inferior Go-
vernment Clerks. The Chancellor of the Exche-
quer concluded with moving, " That the other
Orders of the Day be now read."
Mr. COURTENAY was forry the difcuffion had
arifen on this bufinefs, but was of opinion that
the Hon. Gentleman on the floor had been forced
to it by the conduit of the Gentlemen on the other
tide. It would have been rather snore difcreet iii
the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Addington) to
have come forward with his ufual candour, and ac-
knowledged that delay did take place in feveral
of the public offices in the payment of bills—for
he could not be fo ignorant of them as not to
know it—that would have been more becoming
than the zeal which precipitately denied th.,:
which it was afterwards neceffary to admit. Wiser.
he (Mr. Courtenay) was in the Office of Ordnance,
he knew many bills to be poliponed becaute r..)
money was in the Office ; and when applicati,
was made at the Treafury, he knew a limilar es•
cufe to be offered. The people who held th.fe
bills to be Pure did not complain, for they 't: re
aware it would be ufelefs ; that, he admitted, 11.. i
nothing to do with the infolvency of Oovernmcia.
He commented on what he termed the !limit:

lagi.: of the ChancellOr of the Exchequer—that
Cos motion ought nut to be acceded to, though
feveral bills might appear to be in the fame fitua-
tion, merely becaufe that Hon. Gentleman knew
but one bill when he made the alfertion which ori-
ginated this difcuffion ; that logic he trulted
would not be conclufive with the Houle, to per.
Made the refufal of an account which was to be
made the ground-work of a meafure for the regu-
Winn of thofe offices. The Right Hen. Gentle.
man teemed to think the refufal of this bill a thing
of no account, becanfe the amount was trifling,
but that was an aggravation of the refufal, for
bad it been a large bill there might have been
fome exeufe. For the credit of Government and
of the Hon. Gentleman, he thought his motion
ought to be adopted, as the Hon. Gentleman
ought to he allowed to produce proofs in vindic,t-
lion of his own charater. If the motion fhould
be rejected, it will very juftly he furpeeted that
many fats could be adduced which it is withed to
keep back. With refpelt to the demand of an
geology from the Hon. Gentleman on the floor,
he rather thought an apology due to him fiom the
other fide, for the manner in which he had been
treated, and for the mifreprefentation of his words.
Mr. Alderman CULTIS laid, that as the Hon.
Gentleman who introduced the motion for the ac-
count, expreffed a with that the City Members'
Ihould deliver their opinions on this fubjeß, he
rofe to (late that of all things in the world he liked
Government bills : he always found them to be
well paid, though the clerks in the Government
offices were not generally fo exalt and accurate as
thole in merchant's counting Iruifes.
Mr. N 10401.1.3 trulled to the rood fenfe and
good humour of his Hon. Ftiend that he would
withdraw his motion, as the faet he before Rated
was now admitted, and of courfe no further evi-
dence was necerary to jullify his alTertion ; for he
thought him incapable of charging the Govern-
ment with infolvency, an inference not at all to be
drawn from the fact alluded to.

•
Mr. BRAGGE anfwered the obfcrvations of the
Hon. Gentleman on the other lide (Mr. Courte.
nay) who, he laid, had been long wont to entertain
the Houfe, but whore imagination on this occafidn
Ltd run away with the accuracy of his judgment,
particularly in animativerfions upon the logic of
denying a Member the right of faking for evi.
denct to futla:n an alTertion of which he Was not
awat e when he mule it. He was prepared to ad-
mit that the art-et-thin itfeif was of no importance,
unlzis it was confidered t!'at it came from a !dem-
bee ei that Hoak, whole name had of late very
freciucntly appeared in the Newfpapers, and of
court:: it might have weight among people who
}id twt the fame opportunity of judging that the
Gentlemen of that Houfe had. As to the fad re-
focaing this bill, it could be really nothing more
than the neglect of an inferior clerk, and not at
all injur:ous to the politic.
Mr. A Reit DA LE faid, that the alarm excited upon
this occafion among the Gentlemen on the Mini.
tLrial benches, did not appear fit much to proceed
from the a'fation of the Hon. Gentleman on the
floor refpeaing the infnlvency of Government, as
from an envy of the riling reputation of that Hon.
Gentleman. It really did not teem fair that a
Gentleman who was daily in the habit of exhibi-
ting arithmetic againf figures--chronology again II
dates—:end eloquence :Tahiti grammar, lhotild be
to fevercly attacked for the firfl good hit he had
happened to make : a Gentleman who was al.
ways particularly forward to provoke the Mini-
fiers to debate, either by interrogatory, motion, or
Ihrewd commentary. With retped, however, to
the motion of the Hon. Gentleman, he would ob.
ferve, that be had heard Tome learned Member
talk of fuper human abilities, which in truth he
(Mr. A.) did not fisppore the prefent Miniflers to
porefs—lie thought them plain lioneß men, fin.
cerely difpofed to do their duty, if the country will
permit them to carry their intentions into effect ;
but their abilities mull be fuper-human indeed, if
they ern be anfwerable for the negleft of all the
inferior Officer. in the different departments of
Government.

Mr. Joie r. s (aid he was not prefent when this rub-
jea was firli under difcutlion ; but in truth, when
he heard of the fall Rated by his I lon. Friend, he,
as a plain ignorant man, thought all was up ;"
and et the Right Hon. Gentleman on the Trea-
fury Pencil was ignorant of it, as he probably was,
that the people now gave two-pence for the loaf
they toighr have had for a penny tome years ago,
was Al owing to the prodigality of his pre-
cieceifor. He was prepared to deny that his Hon.
Friend had by any means Paid that Government
was infolvent—no fuck word had efeaped him.—
Ile himr,ll was ready to difavow it. The word
firil cAnic from the other fide. With refpcift to the
of the Hon. City Member (Alderman
Curt:', that Government bills were fo highly
valuzd in the City, he could fay, from the bell- au-
thority, that many of his conllituents differed in
opir.ii.n with him—that many of them complained
i.f the evil to which his Hon. Friend tithed
to call the attention of the Houfe, and that feveral
pet i;II1C had :men ruined by the want of punduality
in the Government Offices.

Oa 01411CI,LLOR or THe EXCHKrge. in ex-
lay.ation It'd, that from the bell of his recollec-
r( r,crniltnied by the recolledion of all the
Len ..), kind him, the Hon. Gentleman did, on
f Inter evening, Rate, that the Government was
ifiledvent, bccattfe the payment of a (mall Go-
v • acceptance was poftponed. He called
l-Ln. Gentleman to declare upon what
glr)unds he ("fated that this Bill was prefented for
..iyment by a pupa., as that teemed .tn aggrava-
tion.

Tr. ALiIAVDIIR obrervid. that thi conduet and
ter.dei.cy of the language of the Hon. Gentleman
cri the Figlit he brought forward his charge, jufli-
:icd him in demanding him either to avow his ea-
rl-A(lw or enntradid them.

Mr. I I T. L Y ADDINGTON faid it was not poffihle
PI- tile Tteafury Board to be acquainted with the
tircumftaoce of a Bill having been refuted pay-
ment, either at the Sick and Hurt Office, tn. any
Niter public of ;'there was not, however, an
"..ti.:nre of the Board having been informed th:tt
'L::-.dl innobtcr.;encc had alien from a public

office nut being provided with money, in which it
had not immediately diretted a fum•to be Wiled to
the amount required.
Dr. Laws sues contended there had not been a
Tingle fyllable advanced, (hewing that it would be
attended with the kali advantage to grant the pa-
pers—the Hon. Member was proceeding to explain
an obfervat ion made by hind-elf in a former debate,
refpeeling the fuper-human wildom neceffary to
conduEt the public affairs at fuch a critis as the
prefent, when he was called to order by
The Sf EAR FA, who faid, he was deviating even
beyond the former deviations which had occurred
in the condi of the debate.
_ _

Mr. WiLBERFORCE obferved, that if they were a
party of Gentlemen, met at a dinner, they might
as well have fuch a converfation as the one now
before the Houfe as any other. He thought that
in the prefent !late of the Empire the time and
attention of the Honk of Commons was extremely
ill employed—he had not heard the whole debate,
but he had heard enough to convince him it had
occupied a great deal too much time, and, really,
it would be a joke to carry it any further.
Mr. Roil sots repeated his rearms for wilhing to
have the papers laid before the Houfe. He laid,
he could not do otherwife than take the fenfe of the
Houfe.

The CHANCELLOR Of the EICHEIVIR Rated,
that the Hon. Member had admitted on a former
night the words imputed to him refpeeling the in-
folvency of the Government.
Mr. VANSITTART (aid, that the credit of the
Sick and Hurt Office was not if the kali injured
by the affertion of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. MARTIN declared he did not hear his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Robfon), in the fpeech which brad
produced the prefent difcuffion, make ufe of the
term infolvency.
Mr. DEN T fail, he had, on a former night, called
the Hon. Gentleman to order, in confequence of
his conceiving he had afferted that which implied
the Government was iniblvent.

The Houfc became extremely clamorous for
the girefliori, After a few nbfervations from
Mr- ARTHUR MOORE, againit the original mo-
tion, a divifion took place upon the motion of the
CHRaczt.Lott of the Excatgy R, for paging to
the Orderof the Day.—For the motion 79—Againft
it 2—Majority for the motion 77.—Adjourned.