Star.
London, England, 1813-05-14 00:00:00

Wands, lind on thelr tetnporal interests, as calling Ott
:us, not in unfair jealbusy, pr hostile relations, to
consider the practice of alt other States, and of our ,
own Catholic ancestors, who were• jealous of the en.
croachments of the See of Rome. We ought to take •
our remedy within the scale on which all nations had
taken their's against such encroachments. He was
sure most Catholics were too wise and too patriotic,
not to be aware of such jealousies formerly, and now •
also, when the Pope had ceased to be a free agent,l
and could no longer exercise forbearance towards
this country ; but had became; in fact, an instrument
in the hand of our enemy. In what related to faith
or discipline, or did not trench upon temporal mat-
ters, he agreed that it was not policy to interfere:—
As to controul over the appointment of high gccle.
siastical officers, which was absolute in the Romish
See, he was anxious not to claim any nomination,
or any direct interference. How far the clauses
did interfere, was another point. But he consider-
ed that the Catholic Clergy ought not to be left in a
situation, in which they,had two separate interests—
arising from influence and duty ; but that their inte-
rests should be made such as to reconcile their duties,
both to their own country, and to the See of Rome. II
This had been his anxious wish ; and which he once
thought was near its accomplishment at the period of
the Union, when an arrangement •was proposed for
the Clergy, satisfactory to them and to the State.—
He was sanguine in this expectation, having receiv-
ed, as far as the then Government could give him,
authority to promise an arrangement to the Clergy,
both of the Catholics and the Bissenters in Ireland.
On the eve of the Union he expected this, from the
quality of the measure, as well as from his having
been the channel of communication. He had asked
of Lord SidmoutifsCabinet, whether these measures
would be agreed to ?—and upon receiving an assur-
ance that they would be so, and on that ground only,
he consented to become a Member of that Cabinet.
On communicating this to the Catholic Clergy, they
informed him that their disposition was not changed
(the papers on this subject might be found in the
Secretary of State's office) ; but that they thought it
would be discreditable to them, and unbecoming
their character, if theyembraced a separate, exclusive
advantage for themselves, while the Catholic Laity
were smarting under the disappointment of their ex-
pectations. The measure world have been executed,
but for the Clergy's.thus declining it. He thought it
would be the least revolting measure to the Catholic
mind ; and that it would form, better than any dry
authority, a counterbalance to the See of Rome. No
security was better than such an independence in
their own society, that foreign power was no object
in their eyes. He knew no better mode of placing
them above all suspicion in the eyes of the Protest-
ants, or of enabling them with advantage to discharge
their duties. He thought this of so much importance,
that he was anxious to stare it, and he hoped the
Right Hon. Gentleman would weigh it carefully._
He thought the Catholics would nJt consider his
views hnreasonable, since he never dreamed of their
doing more than the Presbyterins, whose church
systems was infinitely more republican, and therefore
tending mare to political inconvenience than a church
purely monarchical, like that of Rothe, which seemed
thereby more compatible with the genius of the Con-
stitution. He believed the Crown had the power of
refusing every Presbyterian Minister, on grounds of
disloyalty, even after the recommendation of the
Synod, with respect to his receiving the endowment,
according to what was established in Lord Hard-
wick's Administration ; but he believed no instance
had yet occurred of a refusal by Governinent. This
provision was, he believed, £lOO a year at the
highest, the scale descending. The Catholics ought
not to feel jealous of this measure, and alarm the pub-
lic mind upon it. In no view ought they, unless they
would refuse all connection with the State. If sn, he
understood them : but that would be different from
their former disposition. He did not wish to extend
this plan to all the various sects • but as it had been
already done, the example ought to be followed
with the Catholics, which would relieve Protestants
from the fear of danger. The Clergy had not
deemed it inconsistent with their duty, but declined
it from the respectable motive he had stated. It
would give additional facilities to the admission of
the whole body to the desired privileges. As to
a regulation in direct appointments to ecclesiastical
functions, he did not think any law could be ad-
vantageously exercised. He was not prepared to say
that a regulation respecting the loyalty of ecclesias-
tics, should merely exist in a declaration of loyalty
to the Crown. He must be allowed to say, that the
proposed Commission created an authority inconsis.
tent with the rights of the Crown and the Constitution:
if he did not misconceive its tendency. He thought
it would not answer its purpose ; but if acted upon,
would be worse than any system on more known
and admitted principles. The Commissioners were
to act without any influence of the Crown, save their
nomination. They could not always have the
means of exercising a sound discretion. The five re-
spectable Noblemen could not always know what
was dangerous, for it was impossible that they could
have the whole question brought before them in all
its circumstances, in the full shape in which the
Crown could view it. In referring all such mat-
ters to those respectable persons, senior Peers in
both countries, it would be felt that they might
sometimes have imposed upon them, what they could
not do without great hardship. As the Bill stood,
they Would be called on not merely to give an
opinion as to the qualifications of an individual—
no! for • their authority respecting a person in
an .early stage--but as a late one, when the
highest ecclesiastical appointment was taking place.
With-all his respect for the character and integrity of
the Noble Lords who were, according to the Right
Hon. Gentleman's Amendments, to be invested with •
the power of granting a testimonium to the Catholic
Bishops, he could not but think that such a measure
would go to the creation of a tribunal unknown to
the Constitution. It would, in fact, confer the power
of appointing Bishops at the will and caprice of indi-
viduals, divested of all responsibility, and not ame-
nable either to the Crown or to Parliament. It would
be, to all intents and purposes, a permanent Commis-
sion against the Crown, without being subject to the
controul of public opinion, or of the authority of that
House. The Rlght Hon. Gentleman would accom-
plish his object much better by proceeding according
to the plain, clear, and recognized principles of the
Constitution. He did not wish to quarrel in the sen-

' tinteutt he tom calla( upb6 to pitptest With the prio-
ri* of security itself, but with the fat that the pro-
, 'vision was not accompanied with due aid requisite
responsibility. He would certainly prefer the ap-
•pointment of Commissioners directly and openly by
the Crown ; but the Right Hon. Gentleman's mode
was a secrecy against the. Crown, against the Legis-
lature, against all mankind—lt tended to establish
a new estate in the cbtmtry, highly dangerous, and
to transfer from a foreign power, to a power within
ourselves, a right of interference seriously detrimen-
tal to the Roman Catholic body itself, and to the
Constitution. To the proposed testimonium or cer-
tificate he should therefore most decidedly object.—
When he looked to the question formerly, be consi-
dered that it was likely to take place as the result of
the Union, because that settlement was calculated to
surmount many difficulties, to open new views, to
enlarge the system of general policy, and to strengthen
the means, and consolidate the prosperity of the Em-
pire. While he lamented the difficulties which then
existed and opposed the completion of the measure,
he thought at the same time the period would arrive,
when the Legislature might be fully enabled to carry
that great object into effect. No moment could pre.
sent itself so auspicious for the common interests and
common happiness of the country as the present.—
There was was no peculiar reason to induce the Ca-
tholics to believe that the Legislature were called
upon to act from unworthy motives, front the feel-
ings of timidity, of fear, or the predominant appre-
hensions of danger. On the other hand, the Protes-
tants had every just ground for co-operating in the
attainment of the measure. As Legislators, act-
ing for the Catholics as well as for the Prates.
tants, they were bound to make every arranges
ment for the public security, and the public good;
to proceed in the great work by a suitable conge-
niality of sentiment; and to produce, by their co.
operation, a diffusion of blessings incalculable in their
influence upon the welfare of the empire at large.—
l'here was at a former period much reason to believe
that there was in the Pope a mild and benevolent
spirit of conciliation, ready to concur in the measures
most proper to be adopted ; and that there existed in
the great body of the Catholics a disposition to run
before the Crown in just concession and conciliation.
Although the same facility with respect to the head
of the Catholic church did not now exist, the want of
that could not constitute any obstacle, if tne Catho-
lics themselves were ready, as they had been, to adopt '
the best means of conciliation, and to conform to the
best interests of the country. The Pope was, at the
moment that he addressed the House, a prisoner in
the power of an inveterate enemy ; and therefore the
friends of the Catholics, and the Catholics themselves,
were bound to do their duty, without listen ng to the
strange .doctrines of some individuals. He wished
to have it clearly understood that there could be no
preclusion to their claims on account of the Pope's
detention. If even there were, it would become
the duty of the House to provide exclusively far the
Catholics, and the safety of tie country together.—
' The only question before them was the mode of pro-
ceeding on a question of degrees ; and he trusted
most sincerely, that in the steps they had to take, no
temporary indiscretions of individuals would be al.
lowed to operate against the Catholic Claims. The
sentiments, however indiscreet, injudicious, and un-
seasonable, which might, be expressed against the
opinion of the general body by any individuals, ought
not to be considered as a criterion by which the Le-
gislature ought to measure and regulate its decisions.'
He could at no time, and under no circumstances, be
induced to lend his sanction to such a doctrine. He',
misted that the Right Hon. Gentleman, who was en-
trusted with the care of the Bill, would finally mike
such arrangements as should be found sufficient to
guard against the chance of every danger, and to
give to the Catholics every opportunity of enjoying
the confidence of the Crown, and the esteem of their
fellow-subjects. Of the Catholic Clergy in Ireland,
he could not speak too warmly ; for he had witnessed,
in times of peculiar peril and trying distress, the ex-
cellence of their conduct. He was desirous of uniting
them with the State upon the same principles which
allowed them to partake of honours and dignities in
every Protestant country. It was his earnest wish
to grant to them the confidence they possessed in
Protestant States, where they had not opposed any
obstacle, but had wisely lent themselves to the esta-
blished policy of the country. These were the feel.
ings he entertained, and upon which he wished the
question to be understood and discussed, when the fa-
cilities with the head of the Catholic Church existed.
But if the auspicious moment in the Catholic mind
now presented itself, and they were ready to take
what was given in all Protestant States, unless in-
deed they declared they were different from all Ca-
tholics in all Protestant countries, from the Catho-
lics in Canada and Malta, he did not hesitate to say,
that the results would be most beneficial to the com-
mon interests and happiness of the Empire. With
respect to the Protestants in this country, he was
aware that there certainly did exist a considerable
degree of reluctance to grant all the rights and pri.
vileges which were claimed; but he felt that the re-
luctance prevailed more among the lower than the
higher classes, and that it was caused more by in-
temperance and misrepresentation, than by that con-
viction which ought to be the consequence of mature
and unprejudiced deliberation. Yet the question, he
was happy to observe, had gained ground, and he,
therefore, felt anxious to solve it in every way, and
by every mode consistent with the safety of the
State, and with all the views and ends suited to the
spirit and practice of the Constitution. Having thus
stated his sentiments, he conjured the Right Hon.
Gentleman to obtain for the Catholic Body the fullest
acquiescence which could be given in the proposed
measures, upon the principles he had laid down, and
he pledged himself that they should have his cordial
concurrence and support. He concluded with ex-
pressing his confident hope, that the House would
• go into the Committee, where the question might be
fairly and minutely discussed, and such an arrange-
ment made, as would give equal satisfaction to the '
1 Protestants and the Catholics by the best possible pro.
visions of concession, conciliation, and- security.

Mr. PONSONBY did not rise to enter at large
upon the topics to which the Noble Lord had ad.
verted—but to assure the Noble Lord, that both he
and his friends felt every disposition to meet his
Lordship with the strongest feelings of conciliation.
He would not prestune to understand all the opinions
'delivered that might by the Noble Lord. Indeed, it