Star.
London, England, 1823-03-07 00:00:00

ROYAL MESSAGE.

The geri of LIVERPOOL brought down a Message from
his MAJESTY, which was read by the Loan CHANC6ILLOIL For
which set the Commons.
On the motion of the Earl of Lresntoot., his Majesty's Mes-
sage was ordered to be taken into consideration this day.
IRELAND.

The Earl of D.IRNLEY did not know whether it was quite
regular to allude to what had passed in another place; but
wished to ask the Noble Earl opposite whether it was his inten-
tion to lay on the table the documents front the Irish Govern-
ment, relative to the measures in contemplation with regard to
Ireland, which had been produced in the other House? He was
aware drat a disposition existed on the part of the Noble Lord
at the head of his Majesty's Government not to acquaint the
House with the measures which had originated in another
place; and that they were left in the dark till a late period of
the. Session, when there was no time to discuss them properly.
Ile hoped that in the present case the subject would be deemed
of iufficient importance to induce the Noble Earl opposite to
lay the documents in question before their Lordships. If that
course were not pursued, he should think it his duty to make a
motion to that effect. •
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that there was no docu-
ments upon this question which had been laid before the other
House, which would not also be submitted to their Lordships.
All leghlative measures must originate in one House or the
other, and it was not the effect of neglect or indifference to-
wards either, that priority of information should be possessed
by the one where the enactment had taken its rise. He was
aware that documents bad been laid on the table of the other
House, and would have no hesitation in submitting the saute to
tleir Lordships.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. M. A.T AYI.O It presented a Petition from Charles Greg-
son, late of Grosvenor-square, decorator of houses, complaining
of injuries sustained under the Bankrupt Laws.—Ordered to
lie on the table.
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved for Returns of Surcharges
made under the Assessed Taxes in the last three years, for Shop..
men and Warehousemen employed by Shopkeepers.—Ordered. •
Mr. DAWSON presented- Papers relating to the case of W.
Murray Borthwick.—Qrdered to be printed.
Mr. H. SUMNER presented a Petition from certain Mer-
chants, Traders, and Manufacturers of the Parish of &mond-
s4, complaining of the Coal Duty. The Chancellor of the
Exchequer, the lion. Gentleman observed, having lately opened
a Budget more satisfactory than auy he remembered to have
heard for many yeses, had" of himself proposed to relieve the
country from certain burdens which he thought might be re-
mitted. In consequence of this, he must now state to the house,
what he had already told his Constituents, that he could nut
support at present the prayer of this Pet itiou forsa repeal of the
Coal Duty. He wasi.hOwever, glad the subject bad been taken
up, as be considered it well entitled to attentioa.—The Petition
was ordered to be printed.
Mr. DENISON presented a Petition from certain Merchants
and Manufacturers in the parish of Bermondsey, against the •In-
solvent Debtors Act. One of the persons signing this Petition
the Hon. Gentleman stated to have had hi persons on his books
from dividend.--13e
he had not received one farthing dividend.ThZ
Petition was ordered to be printed.
Lord FOLKSTONE peesented' a similar Petition from the
Inhabitants of New Sarum—Ordered to be printed.
The Irish Assessed Taxes Repeal Bill went through a Corn-
mittee,theßeport of.which was ordered to be received to-morrow.
The Irish Arms Pill was read h sedond time, and ordered to
be cosnenitted to-morrow. •
Cohsnel DAVIES begged to ask if the sranskr of the Collec-
tion of Custonts to the lexcise, which had been contemplated
last year, and from which a considerable saving had been ex..
petted, was to take plat= ?
Mr. PIER RIES saki, the Saving which the change in gees-
tion would cause, would not go to the extent supposed, bat
the njetseatiess• wasoootemplated rather with a view to general
convenience than from an idea that a saving of importance
cuuld be effected. •
A Petition was presented from the Town of Whitby, coon-,

! plaining of the prattitri Of ligibillfhis4 • i "
to be printed. • %
The trials Yeomanry Corps Mil was viol Oefinrsi iiiiri and
Ordered to be committed on 4lroglaY• , &
A. Petition was presented from tire. Cnitell an farness
I Makers of Bristol, praying for the repealer the Tar ee'Worses.
Ordered to lie on the fable.
Mr. W. SMITH moved for a Benue of all Extents In Aid
issued in the last year.—Ordered.
MESSAGE FROM HIS MAJESTY. •
Mr. Secretary PEEL appeared at the -Bar with a
Message from. the Crown, which was brought up
and read by the SPEAKER.
" His Majesty being informed that doubts have arisen touch-
ing the powers vested in his Majesty to dispose of certain free,
hold and copyright land, of which he was possessed at the
time of his accession to the Throne ; and being also informed
that doubts have arisen as to the power of his Majesty's suc-
cessors to dispose of such freehold or copyhold property as they
may be entitled to at the periods of theiraccession to the Throne,
recommends it to his faithful 'Commons to take the subject into
their Consideration, and. make such arrangements as they May
think proper. (Signed) " G. H."
Mr. Secretary PEEL then moved that it should be
referred to a Committee of the whole House to-mor-
row, to take his Majesty's most. gracious Message
into consideration.
Mr. BENNET suggested, that it might be better
to postpone the consideration of his Majesty's Mes-
sage till Monday, as it was known that many of the
Gentlemen who sat on that side of the House could
not be in their places tomorrow.
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought it would be advise-
able not to defer taking the Message into considera-
tion till Monday. The Hon. Gentleman was aware
that,- after 'the Committee had sat, a Bill must be in-
troduced ; and, in any of the stages of that Bill, a .
sufficient opportunity would be afforded for opposi-
tion to the arrargement which would be proposed,
or for offering any observations which might seem
called for. The Army Estimates stood for to-mor-
row ; and he therefore thought it likely that there
would be satisfactory attendance early in the even-
ing. Under these circumstances, he was sure the
Hon. Gentleman would have no wish to depart from
the established usage.—The motion was agreed to.
CASE OF COLONEL ALLEN. • •
Colonel DAVIES called the attention of the House
to an instance of the manner in which the enormous
power possessed by the Crown over Officers in the
Army was exercised. He held in his hand a Petition
from Colonel Allen, who, in the year 1817, was with
his Regiment in Guernsey, where General Bailey was
at that time stationed. Colonel Allen Was accused
by General Bailey of making false returns. The Co-
lonel upon this demanded an inquiry into his con-
duct. General Bailey having preferred this accusa-
tion, had seemed to think the matter aught to rest
there. Unable to acquiesce in this, Colonel Allen had
written a letter to-head-quarters on the subject, and
at the end of three months be had been brought to
trial, not on one, but on three distinct charges.—
These charges were, that he had made false returns ;
that he had tried men by Drum-head Court-Mar-
dills ; and that he had placed more men in certain
Barracks than those Barracks were calculated to
hold. On the first and third charges he was found
guilty of the facts charged, but these were proved
to amount to mere technical errors and misconstruc-
tion of orders, and the decisioni of the Court were
qualified atcordingly.. , On, the second charge, with
respect to Drum-hrae.Cciurt-Martials, he was con-
' victed without any similar qualificatipo of the ver-
dict. With respect- to Drum-head Court-Martials,
he might be allowed to observe, that they differed
not from other Court-Mai tials so much as some Hon.
Members might suppose. -The evidence was not
taken down' in them, but the Members were all on
their oaths the same as in the others; His Royal High-
ness the Prince Regent had been pleased to confirm
the finding of the t °nit, and had sentenced Colonel
Allen to be reprimanded. But, not satisfied with the
severity of this sentence, Colonel Allen had subse•
quently been removed from the 55th Regiment, his
continuing in the command of it having Seen consi-
dered to be inconsistent wish the -well-being of the
Corps. It was intimated to him that he might retire
on half-pay, or leave the service altogether by sell-
ing his Commission. He (Colonel Davies) had no he-
sitation in saying, that whoever had advised this ad;
dition to the sentence of a Court-Martial,had advised
the Prince Regent to do that which was illegal. Co-
lonel Allen had preferred retiring on half-pay. The
circumstances under which he must have sold his
Commission were such, that, in fact, the punishment
inflicted on him amounted to a severe pecuniary fine.
The Hon. Gentleman quoted from several military
authorities, to shew that the Crown could legally
make no alteration in the sentence of a Court-Martial,
unless it were by exercising the prerogative of mercy
to mitigate its rigour. Under these circumstances,
:Colonel Allen threw himself on the consideration of
that House, in the hope that, though he was a mili-
tary man, he should not be denied that justice which
was not denied to the meanest individual in the State.
The Petition having been read, on a motion by Co-
lonel Davies, that it should be laid on the table,
Lord PALMERSTON said he should not oppose
the motion for laying the Petition on the table, but
he thought it necessary to trouble the House with a
few observations. It was generally admitted, that
there was no subject into which it was more incon-
venient for the House to enter, than thequestion as
to the power of the Crown to dismiss its own officers
in the Army. No practice was more ancient or more
undisputed than that which was now complained of.
The Sovereign had always exercised the right of dis,
missing his officers, whether they had been condemned
by Court Martial or not, and assigning, or declining to
assign, reasons for such'removals, at its pleasure. This
f power was necessary, inot for the sake of the Crown,
but for the benefit of the People, and the security of
the Constitution. But in the case of the present Pe-
titioner, he had not been dismissed, but,.as lead-been
stated by the Honourable Gentleman, the alternative
was given to him of retiring on half-pay:or' oittin
the service altogether, by meant of the sale~ et hCommission. This, then, art at) eventsi: was not la
case which called fox ; the interfetintt Of. thii 'Honiei"
But still stronger grounis "eould be given jibe chili-.
Inon-interference.. Colonel Allen Inidi beedteiiid*
three charges, on all or_ which-he bad been' found
guilty. On two of them the verdict Of the Ce
' had been qualified by it statement, IlidiViktmgh•
I'oll4 of the offences charged virottldwirsiwsktO.be
allowed for misconstruction oldie ardert:whittitild•
lwen• issued. On ' the third' chare ' lick' Tie *Mt
guilty without anyikialificatiOn. - . Ile'(kehlifl atiders' -
stun) would' ire& Batt -on 'the thateArbith'iltihe.

. .
:Past in-erected% wai for disobedience of orders,
quatiteritig k &liter nuhrber or men in certhir
' racks than such barraiks• were intended to contain.
.This was fay proved. rt had, however, been •
posed that he had taken an erroneous view
General Order on that subject, and had consi,
not to apply to the particular building (whi
not a regular barracks) in which the men hal
quartered by hire.
.Here, however, great negl
or -extreme inaptitude was proved against r
Allen. One thing had been much dwelt
'namely, the hardship of trying Colonel kik/
three eliarges;-"Nevi he had called forlitquiti
one. Ile .begged the House to observe witl
rapid strides Military Reformers proceeded.
first initance, they contended that the Crow,
dcit the right of dismissing its ow'n Officer bat 7
sequence of the verdict of a Court Martial; w
-they contended that an offfeeewas not to bets)
to trial-on any charge oniellich he did not di
be tried—(Hear, hem r!)
Colonel DAVIES denied that he had mar
such asieritiin as that imputed to him.
Lord PALMERSTON had not meant to i
language to the lion. Member which he h:
used, but bad been led into this course of arg
from the stress laid upon the point to which /
alluded by Colonel Allen himself. The second
to which he should advert was that of mini,
Mimes of certain men in his returns. The fact
these. The Commander in the Island of Go
had received notice of the frequent Court7M,
that took place in that island, and of chef:wpm
poral punishments. His orders were to dimini
frequency of corporal punishment, if possible.
ing that species of punishment so often inflict
the 55th Regiment, that between January and .
79 men had been tried, who had received
lashes, General Bailey was induced to call
return every morning of all offences which had
committed after eleven o'clock on the precedini
With the names of the.offenders, the offences
they had previously committed, the punish
they had received, and their dates. Might it
expected that the return-thus called for won/
made him acquainted with every offence commi
What then was his surprise, on going into the
pital on the 11th of April, to find two person
ing under recent punishments whose names hat
been reported to him. This led to an inertia
result of which was, that, between January and .
there had been fifteen men tried, whose names
not appear in the returns, who had received
them-1,750 lashes. It was a most extraordinary
construction of the orders which had been •
that these names should have been omitted. i
Court-Martial, in finding Colonel Allen guilt:
sidered that such a misconstruction might hL
curled, though it was but reasonableto suppose
if Colonel Allen had entertained any doubt
subject, be would have expressed that doubt
neral Bailey. Let him take, then, which alternati
he pleased. If he understood the orders, his col •
had been marked by extreme negligence; if '
not understand them, such a person was not
continue in the command of a regiment. The
charge against him was, that he had tried sew..
y a Dram-head Court-Martial in the course of
teen days, during which time General Bailey
been.absent. The ordinary Court-Martials afford)
time for the accused to collect evidence for tht
fence, and the case of each individual was
'being disposed of with due deliberation. A
head Court-Martial was much more summar
course of proceeding. He did not say that a.
head Court-Martial was not sometimes necessal
a case, for instance, where neglect occurred w 7
army was in the field—where a mutiny had
,ciut, or where any circumstances had arisen
made it important that an immediate example
be made. But what was the case here? In
peace—the regiment at home—and only her
march to the usual parade—was this the
which-a Drum-head Court-Martial was to be
and which, in point of fact, was held within SO
.oftheOrdirly-rtioni of the Regiment, in which
gular Court-Martial might have been assembled.
'much for the locality—and now he came to
whether the case was one of emergency. This
tainly was not, as the offences charged had been
mitred on the 22d of the month ; the trials di
take place till the 24th, and some of the sent
were not carried into execution till the 28t1
much for the emergency of the case, and the
which was deemed necessary. The fact was,
were no grounds for calling a Drum-head.l
Martial. Nay, two of the men that were tried
committed no offence at bead-quarters, but hr
sent in by outposts to be tried in the ordinary
LI-le would now state the nature of the offences
'bad been thus proceeded against. The first
which it was thought necessary to try bet"(
Drum-head Court-Martial was that of a mat
had put two cartridges into the breast of his
Instead of placing them in his cartridge-:
Hear, hear).—For this the offender had been
tenced to receive twenty-fiye lashes—(llear, hear'
The next case was that of William Kingstor
was charged with offending against a General
of March, but where, when, or how the offen,
been committed, did not appear ; so that had
beeq given him of trial two days before, lu
hive known how to ;defend himself. Anoth:
was' that of in individual . who had supported
without being ordered to do so. - He was, the
tried by a pttim-head Cetirti•Mirtial for support
bis iiiiuket With his 'arm On piti.of the back, lir',
'Of keeping the butt end of it in his hand. This offekco
bad' boleti punished with 25 laidies; The nee'
INOtbUtg.4oo Stant* Who-Ur:as tried for
dierftWeiMdtikt,-In being drunk When tberegil
*al'. ift tlle field.. If there were any offence
N". ht 'ockt :to be: tried before a, Drutn;•head
M 14,`ItWai•Ot of 'drunkenness., The'object
Dt 4igarpiltiltuttial 'Was to punish an offence
..;,,i, aikiillritiktectiOn of the Wren('
• e)Sattiiii.cliutieiveri pursued when a Drui
• Ottiiitiartial Wiis.4allediu'suib a case, the c
loot put on -* a time when, frotiiiht
, 211-_,..,___,_ . k. L
!very 94 w. a. w. Which. he ras. charged, 'he :Mist be'
!papilla , :of 'eking. his.-defende, In 46iiiistanie:,'
ii,,tef Llif.b:.crliY, pii,SecY WOO the intlividttal Wai
r
firOah fiViV,.b4:s,Fir ClatiditiAct.'otily tirinred
liciw unttice!eultwas.io.iiritig.)(n7t4aDruo-lie4l
rouit434o 14
.4; What 0,.: tlic sciliepte it(
. Euniticcd. by that Tiibutiar?' With Out any cridditii

•
stated, as to the acts which-the individual had si made On a man's
;doieolle. aboTo . coft;i7mitted while in a state of intoxication, it appearea.o,
i
lfe
be
cone his back,
contain, that he bad been sentenced.to receive 100,1-ashes.asiot• sideman should be
• .....
een -stip-'I nie next case was one of the same nature, •and hasloo o bd.
as against Join
l' of the inlso been punished with 100-laskes. He wouldonlyoe -
'tiered it I refer to one other case, that of private John Sutton, -..,- , that the Office
• inote closely into thi-
ne!' was who had been charged with atesolditrlikeatonduceols• .! be stated in behalf of
ad been levelling his piece improperly. The,lfoute • mkalitto parting the preregati
tligence now suppose that they had got to Swiveling- thOesille : a fife charm of—Ne
Colonel really important, and conchs& that obis:Wm ahe-eitlii
• The Petition was o
tiron— of a desperate ruffian, •
'Who, having excitbd his feleeek A-Message from t
en upon soldiers to mutiey,'lrad finished by levelliote hisolffokie
'charged peillaps to the muzzle, at the :Office/ whip ships' assent to the II
Y but on :
COMMUT ATI
Le what. sees endeavouring to•restere order. -Heosmillisllltair. Mr. GOULBUftN
In the the House to suspend their judgment .for nextatmiet-iii.•
two of the House, the
wn had before they came to such a decisiou. ..hem : sad been repeatedly pres •
tin con- had been tried for nasoldierlike conduct in itepro-
mild then levelling his piece in the air, when the regiment '' • nit• from both sides of th
boolget practising with ammunition--(Liziseler).—tutp... • -ici-'! sate
n"tihnei"subajencdt ofinter
'cote to .the conduct of Colonel-Allen, who represented biome e
self to be a much-injured and persecuted individual ie.?. ' le bed uniforinly rep
ade any Looking at the facts of this case, *tight they not tee* ae Session- he should be •
measure for the con:
round upon him, and ask " -finis talerit Greed* ft 4 ::: 'state the reasons wh
onpnte ditiones.querentesf" Colonel. Allen had been treated-:'-,
'were unable to recon
tad not
in the most lenient manner. No impartial man could. ::: •
say that he, either from his-conduct to his supeliorsi ol win to the House. It
gument
or from his conduct to his inferiors, was a proper pet • - he had so made, that
he had
copy their. attention,
I charge son to remain in the command of a regiment. 119 :-
however, being allowed to retire on-lialf-pay, had os which, with the leave
ing the
been placed only in the same situation to which huts .• . vernment were peeper-
:Es were
drods of meritorious Officers had been reduced by the - , such a subject, he was
tiern,,ey the difficulty of the to
j;4l.oals termination of the war. He had been allowed to sell.. o it was, indeed, jrnpossi
his CommissiOns. Yet he, forsooth, represented him os
self to have suffered serenely in his private fortune oti elnnplicated interests i •
Find- by not being enabled to dispose of them as lie might •-;:
reactohre-' --
the question of tithes, t
stitutions of the count
cued have desired to do; though the fact was, he had re- -.H. .
received every Commission which he held, from the afloat thereupon, with
J April,ii
.7: troduting a plan in th
1 4,878 favour and grace of the Crown, and had not paid for ork great variety of confli
il for a any of then: a single shilling. It was unnecessary to .. •
say a word more on the subject, and he should leave • relinquish any hope,
ad .been
the House to deal with it as they thought proper. , ion: notwithstar.ding t
ing day, amity, he still though
.s which Sir I. COFFIN had seen much of the service, but .
ussion the best plan
shment"
he had never seen in it-any cause for complaint like - ion, he was prepared t,
•
that which had now been preferred. . • t- - which he knew at the
Sir It. WILSON wished to ask the Noble Lord if -,' hensions in some mind
mined? the statement which he had made was. founded on - vertheless, the time h
the Minutes of the Court Martial by which Colonel -. some specific measure
is suffer-
itldnohta bev e
Allen had been tried ? If the Commander-in-Chief ~ therefore trusted that
he Has_
had thought it necessary to animadvei ton the con- vourably (at least at th
ti
duct of any of the other Officers who had octal with . so many reasons promp
lv, nevertile
d A
Colonel Allen at the I)rum-head Court-Martials ? If hothought this were
Ines
And, thirdly, he wished to ask if there would be any - enterinto minute and d•
,April,
did
among objection to lay before the House the proceediugsof ... bavtebeen ready to go
ail, mss- the Court-Martial ? elucidatory of the four
issued, Lord PALMERSTON, to the first qnestion, re- - eiple of his measure re
But the Plied, that his statement was founded on the Nli- the opinion of many pe
ty, con- flutes of the Court Martial ;to the second, that the spected, it would be
lave nc- Commander-in-Chief had not thought it necessary able to them, and more
use that, to animadvert on the conduct of the other Officers -tourney at large, were
on the who assisted at the Drum-head Court-Martials, con- . confine himself to a sim
to Ge-
ceiving the dismissal of Colonel Allen would be sub- of his 8111, to have it pri
ernative
ficient to prevent a recurrence of such proceedings;
throughout the country
conduct and to the third,- that he thought there would be on • discussion upon the det.
he did objection to-give the papers referred to, as he did not ficiently distant to ad
see that this inquiry could be further prosecuted with sense of the country u
Lill
efito
net
xt
any prospect of arriving at a beneficial result. . .—Under these feelings
wen men Sir R. WILSON remarked that great abuses hid - state-the objects he bad
of four- occurred in the infliction of corporal punishment, , tion to request leave for
ley had and could have wished that an opportunity had been •• ' parate Bill.—one inten
afforded taken of condemning them. . composition of tithes in
heir 'de-. Mr. BENNET objected to the course which had... meted ; the other for a p
sure of been taken on the part of the Crown, in adding to it stead of separating Wee
Drum-
the severity of a sentence passed by a Court Martial.:. for brevity's sake combi
ry in its
,
Mr. HU•AIE spoke to the same effect. . —Passing by, therefore,
- Lord PALMERSTON wished it to be understood
.: should at once enter int,
tsaDryru;inin-
that no punishment by removal had taken,place. It •;';•: chanism of hisproposed
when an
was for the Crown to determine whether an Officer t laced to the limited com
broken
should continue in its service or not. In this case
he principle of endeav
which the reprimand-bad been given as a punishment; that . • greement -between th.
e should -•
done, the Crown had removed Colonel Allen, consi- •• utiles; and the mode b
time of dering him unfit to continue in the command of ait sect that voluntary ag
ving to
Regiment—Hear, hear). --a ent rendered coniplic
• Sir R. WILSON inquired whether military punish.-'IO
~
e peculiar situationn
ere ahseeldi n?
menu were now divided as formerly.---whether. after ?1,.,, he claim ofoithes upo
10 an individual had been punished, subject to the opioo: . uhe of working any to
nion of a Medical Officer, as much as he could bear ' - wins to the different .
tied. So at onetime, he. was liable to be brought .out agaia 2,- : otsed.in the fiddle-an
Ichy aarides -
inquire Lord PALMERSTON ssaid,. the practice was to 0., pried with those of the
is -it cer- - limit punishment to as. much as the human •.- landoerhose executive a
en com-
tion could bear at one time. • much effect and adv
did not Colonel DAVIES, in reply, begged-to eaplaiuthe :, _ he propoasd.arrang
entences situation in which he stood with respect. to-Col-noel ' ieutenent should.hme
eio So Allen. He had-never seen him in his life;. and.after. - lion of the Incumbent..
to haste what had been stated by the Noble Lord, io•!faras * ~
Irpon the &sheaf a
,s, there he (Colonel Davies) was concerned, he -felt disposal! io . ith4a viable jbe parish
„Court. to throw down his brief •and leave the Court. •lba :: - - joirein nunsbera thei
ied had however, contended, that it was. difficult to distill-. •I :' .. a..S. pedal. Vestry, to
mad been guish between punishment and -the removal of an £ urea( the
r course. Officer.after he had received the-sentence of.a Court •.) bylines that 'much of th
..:s which i isfamiou Martial, and gave notice that it- was his intentionott. .of-the arrange
rst case bring the question to an issue when the Mutiny &Lb ' heructer and conduct .
oefore a came before the House, by moving, when it mum. :iv tat Vestry, in regulatin
lan who be referred to a Committee, that it should beonin- :1 t was; therefore, Omen.
jacket, struction to the Committee to consider of the pro- Oi. hich was to .constitut
0b000..._ priety of limiting the prerogative of the Crowu is: ei • 'shionersto sit upon th
een sen. that particular. . -,.1 , 'articular amount of ti.
hoar).— Mr. C. W. WYNN defended that prerogative of ale ; ent for the PurPoses so
*
3n, who Crown, which the. Honourable Gentleman thought ,to ' .1 the small payers,
d Order so objectionable; and the case of Colonel Allen•was ig I' obsibilityeinstead of •
!floe had exactly such a one as he should have imagined,Of he is -Preogernent,-nsar its:se
4 notice -wished to point out hi what particular instance its
.f
A. often found in popular
he could utility and importance would besmost apparent. The" • tumult and tonten
•
her case removal of Colonel Allen had been effected in the-,4 . ettassed that the . .
!eft arms most lenient manoer:. he might hive beendismissed. '1 the-paeishesinahie
terefore, altogether; but instead of this, the option bad beelsol Putfati 1 and leesibleim-
pporting given to him of retiring on half-pay or eellieg ,
boa! esti,' its the perfor • ,
th sac -
theme if pwass-vr •
, instead commission. His removal he considered to heabsoso.7
~ .s, sanative on the -
s offence lately necessary for the interest of the service. -• • ..• ; o . body
we arcuanointeel the;
text case Sir J. YOItKE could not go the 'length of ,
_,
• time-dugs oiresmat• bed
>i en l- lion. Members in supporting the legit ,putrogan
thermustirauelly'be .
eiltitent `contended for on the-part of the Crown:-one.
Haase cleft* interested .in . - •
sZ
e which surprised thit the-Hon. Officers -then in • deo . .
...,.
th .. ..
I M
Court. did not look more -to their own interest.: et •., -mo
jeat ef-a: nothing to be urged in he•nsanbpositiess
• behalf ..of colirnel .• . . '', i
trial
i offence. - Might not the man wham he had brought-to . - to APowint i•- -.-•
levy tea:Mt .. ,
:der.. Iftlevelling his piece improperly become of these . . nr#
erldnn'their
am-head=a-contd never fire but as if he were aiming: •at . ito •;;;;,7711"ti1,
offeridoe' in Saturn ? Ationg his -
men hi semeniereftha... o" r •41°9044.0.1e-- .
otialevemeies.e Load . •
fecentatre leant, who, -standing beforea party: eLariaato:.
coons to mak its 0 _ -
'isnot be declared that he sixoukt-hitee no objectionew ,• •
Medley._ spietsise-oortami
iiistancio their fire at a balfpenny.perhead, as he, Ape ..
a . .
ffitteleotoenlaiich was
Inel'aesi 41tould ruts no-risk,:and-should make: a•festuno
balls:, ltd. equal:- .......
twinieff•ilie bergain-o.(A laxgh )..00lligheoitepot osier- ba • ,
ekeseoseo:demil ‘__4l""q*".'-"Ilhe *I
um -1 ' "Cessamy, to punish *toga:now ?v. 14-stus
ms the te,„ -leth fa. •
arc .iiro- ;here were among aha lower.eviere so
_,.. incumbent.
his,
paws
..
evidence- 'never be•-sober, and .wlien..iale impression! cmdtkeles

6-the iudivitlaal had

otiostion, it appeared
receive 100- ia.hes.a..- -

ame nature, and .had-

sties. He would. only---,i,
' private John Sutton, -.
oldierlike.conducLiok....7'
r. The,lfouse ovigNi-.c. ....-
to iotnething that All .:
that this *was .-theetite.
ring ezeitard his few,
cl by levainwhis pitkb,. l-
e, et the.4lEoer Wiso
.der. -Hemust intit /5t
talent for n =AMPS ' ...
lecision. 'JohnSim:ok ,- :
conduct in improved/. :.a
len the regiment vierA ~.‘:
tighter).—ticli iiift': ..
rho represented bier* •-•-:
ersecuted individual) ^")•
e, might they not ttfin : ---
lis tiderit Gracck* ft+
kllen had been treated
_..a
impartial man could

(duct to his superiors;

its, was a proper Per-

. . .
of a regiment.
ire on half-pay, had

ituation to wivich hum'
been reduced by OA
id been allowed to sell

Kith, repr!,,ented
in his private fortune
of them as he might
2 fact was, he had re-

ich he helj, from the

and had not paid for

It aas unnecessary En
and he should leave

cy tmitight proper.
ch of the service, but
use for complaint like
.rted.

ask the Noble Lord if
made was, founded .on
'a' by which Colonel
Commander-in-Chief •
nad vet t can the con.
rs who had acted with
d Court-Martials
if there would be:my
'use the proceediugsof

the fiat question, re-
founded on the 31i-
, the second, that the
thought it necessary
of the other Officers
Court-:tlartials, con..
Allen would be suf.
such proceedings;
it there would be an
-red to, as he did not
ler prosecuted with
leficial result.
it great abuses htd
lrporal punishment,
opportunity had bees

the course which had
7n. in adding to
by a Court Martial.
effect.

. it to be understood
had taken place. It
. whether stn Officer
or not. In this case

a puni►hment; that
Colonel Allen, consi-
the command of a

.e military punish.
Iy—whether, after

subject to the opi-
ich as he could bear
brought out again ?,
the practice was to
the human constitu-

ged to explain the
respect to Colonel
in his life; and after
Ile Lord, so far as
.d, he felt disposed
re the Court. He,
is difficult to distin-
the removal of an
sentence of a Court

was his intention to

.len the Mutiny Bill
'ng, when it was to
it should be an -in-
consider of the prc-
'e of the Crown in

iat prerogative oldie
Gentleman thought

Colonel Allen wits
have imagined, if he

cicular -instance its
most apparent. The
effected in the
have been dismissed
the option bad bees►
W-pay or selling his
)nsidered to beabso.,
of the service.

be made on a Man's reason, it t►as necessary to mike
oneon his back, He was anxious that corporal pu •
rashwient should be resorted to as seldom as possible,
but:was against doing it away altogether. He won-
dered that the Officers in the House had trot looked
more closely into this• case, into what perhaps might
be stated in behalf of Colonel Allen, instead of sup-
porting the prerogative claimed for the Crown with
a fine chorus of—Hear, hear, hear !
The Petition was ordered to be printed.
A Message from the Lords announced their Lord-
ships' assent to the tteliequer Bills Bill.
COMMUTATION OP IRISH TITHES.

Mr. GOULBURN said it was within the recollec-
tion of the House, that during the last Session he had
been repeatedly pressed by several Hon. Members
from both sides of the House, to express what were
1?!e opinions and intentions of the Irish Government
upon the subject of a commutation of tithes, and that
'lie had uniformly replied, that early in the present
Session he should be prepared to introduce either a
measure for the consideration •of Purliament, or to
state the reasons why the Government of Ireland
were unable to recommend any particular proposi-
tion to the House. It was to fulfil the pledge which
he had so made, that he now offered himself to oc-
cupy their attention, while he developed the course
which, with the leave of the House, the Irish Go.
vernment were prepared to pursue. In entering upon
such a subject, he was far from being insensible to
the difficulty of the task which he had undertaken:
it was, indeed, impossible to contemplate the vast and
complicated interests involved and comprehended in
the question of tithes, their identification with the In-
stitutions of the country, and the vatious opinions
afloat thereupon, without being prepared, when in-
troducing a plan in the way of remedy, to expect a
• great variety of conflicting opinions, and to have to
ielinquish any hope, of securing general approba-
tion : notwithstanding this impossibility to attain una-
nimity, he still thought it right to propose for dis-
cussion the best plan which, after mature considera-
tion, he was prepared to submit to the House—a plan
which he knew at the same time must excite appre-
' hensions in some minds, and distrust in others : ne-
vertheless, the time had, he thought, arrived, when
some specific measure became expedient; and he
therefore trusted that they would net receive unfa-
vourably (at least at the outset) a proposition which
so many reasons prompted him to urge (Hear, hear).
If he thought this were the proper stage for him to
enter into minute and detailed explanations, he would
have'bem ready to go into an extent of argument
elucidatory of the foundation upon which the prin-
ciple of his measure reste,l; but he collected that, in
the opinion of many persons whose judgment he re-
s?ected, it would be more expedient and agree-
able to them, and more generally satisfactory to the
country at large, %sere he on the present occasion to
confine himself to a simple statement of the outline
of his Bill, to have it printed and generally circulated
throughout the country, and to postpone the general
discussion upon the details until a future period, suf-
ficiently distant to admit of the expression of the
. sense of the country upon its merits—(lxear, hear).
—Under these feelings he should now propose to
state the objects he had in view. It was . his inten-.
tion to iequest leave for the introduction of two se-
parate Bill•—one intended to promote a temporary
composition of tithes in Ireland, for a time. to be li-
mited ; the other for a permanent commutation. In-
stead of separating liiisexplanation of each, he should
for brevity's sake combine his arguments upon both.
_Passing by, therefore, all general observations, be
should at once enter into the description of the me-
chanism of his proposed measures. His first Bill re-
lated to the limited composition, and proceeded'upon
the principle of endeavouring to effect a voluntary
• .. agreement between the owners and the payers
tithes; and the mode brwhich it was proposed to
effect that voluntary agreement was, by an. arrange.
silent rendered complicated indeed in its process by
the peculiar situation of Ireland, the minute ettent of
the claim of tithes upon all classes, and by the duffs
culty of working any local machinery in that country,
j owing to the different tempers and habits, so often;
' found in the middle' and lower classes there, com-
pared with those of the corresponding ranks in Eng-
land,-whose executive assistance was resorted to with

so much effect and advantage in local
The proposed arrangement was this—that the Lord
Lieutenant should have the power, upon the requisi-
tion of the Incumbent of .any Benefice or Parish, or
upon the desire of a certain number of the payers of
tithes within the parish, to direct the assembling of
a given number of the inhabitants to act in the nature
of a Special Vestry, to regulate the preliminary na-
ture of the arrangement between the parties. It was
- obvions that much of the value, and justice, ,and sa-
tisfaction of the arrangement would depend upon the,
character and conduct of the parties acting as a.Spe-
: vial Vestry, in regulating the mode of composition.—
It was, therefore, intended to propose a qualification
which was to constitute the eligibility of the pa-
rishioners to sit upon the inquiry : those who paid a
. particular amount of tithes were alone to be compe-
' tent for the purpose, so as to exclude the great mass
of the small payers, whose presence. would,• in ali
probability, instead of assisting in the progress of the
arrangement, mar its: settlement, and render, as was ,
often found in popular Meetings, the place, a scene
of tumult and contention, instead. of %business....
lie trusted that the persons called to, act in.behttlf of
the parishes in this business. would he•pruelent; im-
partial, and sensible men, who would act fairly and
justly in the performance of 'the duty assigned to
them. Suck persons would, as it were, be a repro,.
tentative body on the partof the parish ; and-frens
'.... the circumstance of their, paying a higher amount of
:' tithe than the great bulk of their fellow-parishioners l,
they must na.urally be deemed by the latter as :A
tii
1 cleetly interested in promotiag the fair. eaooompof
. the whole. With respect to the manner- of levying
' 1 the-composition e-gomposition u pow the parishioners, it was-ins:ended i
to appoint special at.p.cfsfs, who .were•to affix and
levy the several assessments.upon the holdings of-in-
ditninals within their parish, in a_manner.staillac tie
the Poor.ratts' assessments An ;this country ky.the
1 local vestries. Land at -peesent. tithe-free was •iiir
course to retai'i its present exemption.; but there'w2ll
another species of land—that which, paid tithe. in
agistment—which was not to. be so, exempt. but. to
bear ns
equal proportion of the - assessment--
l'ieex;•/rear-).—The only remaining- point to explain
I especting the temporary Bill was to secure to the
Incumbent his power of levy in case of non-pay-

the length of some
!le high prerogative
le Crown. lie was
then in the Home
interest. Was there
of Colonel Allen'
. brought to trial for .
be one of those grebe
ere aiming at Jupiter
remembered.a str-
.arty.of Marino; hit :
objection to- receiteo.
sad, as he, knew' hoi!
make a. regime into.
at. it: not .alb be. ner r
thiVitetigaet4oo4
%Ter. or der s virostlia
imprelsimi coal& sot

rent ; and therefore it .w*prnaidel, giatlitaehaist-
sag _remedy, ;lamely, a Trintita% of • de* 4 mon she
troy . before the landlord, - should be 'still mores) to
him. Such was the outline of his temporary traellae.
•
His permanent one was this—it was
.pr4owa
in every case where the mutual consent of the Ow. fri
man and the parishioners should be obtained, a per-
manent contract should be entered into fir the pur-
pose of securing to the Incumbent a certain prepor-
tion of land in fee, in lieu of tithes. The parties were
to have the power of applying to the Commissioners
for the reduction -of the National Debt for money to
purchase such land in fee, and they were to be re-
paid for the interest and principal of the money to
sunk by the due amount of the composition affixed
fox the tithes of the parish. He trusted that this
would be found to be a measure not having regard
to any local or mere individual interests, but directed
to the attainment of ends highly essential to the com-
mon good (Hear, hear)—that whatever defects he
might have admitted into it, credit would be given
at least for sincere intention to make its operation
subservient to the general welfare, tranquillity, and
happiness of Ireland—(Cheers). - The Right lion.
Gentleman then moved «for leave to bring in a Bill
to establish a commutation of tithes for a temporary
period in Ireland."—(Hear.)
Mr. M. FITZGERALD gave full credit to the
Government, for the object by which they were ani-
mated. As to the second Bill, he should defer his
remarks to the time when the Bill came before the
House. As to the first Bill, it appeared to him that
it would retain much of the-uncertainty of the pre-
sent law. Besides, in many parishes, there were no
Protestant inhabitants to adjust the Tithes. lie was
of opinion that a Tithe of Agistment should be levied,
but not that such lands should be liable to the com-
position. He trusted the income n ould be proportioned
to the duty to be performed, and that every Gentle-
man would consent to pay a ceitain sum for his estate,
and thus prevent the fluctuation and uncertainty that
had hitherto prevailed.
Sir H. PARNELL said, that the Bill would do
away with the Tithe Proctors, who bad been a source
of great grievance. He wished that the whole system
of tithes should be abolished, and no option be in any
case allowed. He was certain that land might be ap-
plied to the commutation of tithes without any loss.
*Sir JOHN NEWPORT was gratified by the course
that was meant to be adopted. He hoped that all
classes would be called on to pay their fair proportion.
Of the Bill he would say, that it promised well ; al-
though, at the same time, the machinery would be,
more difficult than it would be in this country. But
should it succeed, that machinery might be applicable
to other objects.
Mr. CAREW agreed entirely in the proposition of
Ilse Right Hon. Gentleman, and in the commenda-
tions that had been bestowed on it. Ireland had reason
to bless the day on which the King visited it, and the
:Representative which he had sent her.
Mr. SPRING RICE congratulated the House and
the country on the change that had taken place with
respect to Ireland. Last year measures of estreme
rigour, though necessary, had been resorted Do. In
the present Session all had been measures of .conci.,
liation, that would produce an ample harvest of gra-1
titude. The conduct of the landholders of Ireland
would shew how far they were disposed to go in the
way of conciliation. Perhaps it would be desirable
that the support of the Church should devolve on the
landlord, and-nor on the tenant.
Mr. H. HUTCHINSON thanked Ministers for
'their conduct on the present occasion. The system
of unkindness that had so long been practised to Ire-

816,311,959

795,312,767

£20,999,172

2,424,762

•
As M. AnlieMdfries% a that.,*figthaemsidet4tion 'not well boast of public credit; trpe credit de-
al-this Report be postponed until the Wth 'of April." . pended solely on an ability to pay, by increasing Ats.
Ocilonel • *at Minty of opinion, that-the ..growing revenues of the country. Au extinction of
turplos of the revenue should be applied to a finking debt wnuld.be more speedily effected-hy encouraging
-Fund.. From the connexion betwnen.the Land and the resources of the country, than by pressing. upon
Fundholdrr, whatever was for the benefit of the lat- , the People..' A Shifting Fund was not iremded for
der must ixteve advantageous to the former. The i the benefit of the public creditor, but for the *dean-
reduction of the Leather Tax had been of no benefit cage of the public debtor, by extinguishing the debt
to the Landowners. las speedily as possible. For these reasons he should
Mr. W. SMITH stated that had not the Leather support the motion of the_.Member for Wareham.
Tax .been taken off, the price of leather would havei Mr. RICARDO contended, that Are had actually.
greatly increased. He thought a small part only of, got rid of some of the .charge of the Debt,.by. the ;fr-
the surplus revenue should be reserved to meet any tion of the Sinking Fund. He thought the, Ast, -
uneepttted contingency or defalcation. come to a better understanding, howevers on the s4p:
Mr. J. MARTIN supported the motion, ject of a Sinking Fund, for be did not think,it. was.
Mr. J. DlibiErrhopedthe motion would be per- be of any use as it was .now reenlated. The last
sisted in. was, at one time, a real Sinking Fkotd,
.apd so were
Si rJ. SHELLEY thought that three millions would all the former; but they all, in time, as well as
be enough to apply. to the Sinking Fund, and thus became fictitious Sinking Funds. tie hoped the qtl4o.
four millions could be taken off from taxation. till to cellos of the Exchequer would consent to a
Mr. HIJME said, thathe was anxious as make a abolish the Half pay Annuities; for then the Anttnii-
few observations. In some-years to come, those who ties, as,they fell in, might be applied US puhile
should live to see it would find that the Sinking poses. It would be policy to call the Sinking ,fttbdt
Fund would not reduce a single pound of the national but three millions, and then they could not call nit'
debt. The only. way h.y which the debt could be at the Chancellor of- the Exchequer.so repeal .five mil-
all reduced would be by cancelling it when a clear lions of Taxes. He looked at the debt of .800 tqll-
surplus should appear. The Chancellor of the Ex- lions as a most serious consideration, and he looks/.
chequer had stated, on a former night, that the debt, at the means of lessening it. He considered the heart-
by means of the Sinking Fund, had been reduced by burnings which it occasioned every year, and the ter-
twenty-four millions, an assertion which surprised him rible consequences to posterity ; and therefore, be.
(Mr. Hume) very much. In order to shew that the wished for a reduction of Taxes, which would get rid
statement of the Right Honourable Gentleman was of all the expense of collecting, of the immorality
not correct, he called • upon the House to attend to arising from the Excise and CustootoLauers; and would
the following statement increase the coninterce of the country. it was there-
BY PAILL474II24TAIIT Pans, No. &r,', or 1819. fore not fair, when such were his opinions, for the
The amount of Unredeemed Funded Debt on sth
January, 1815, was - - Z 752,857,235 Member for Taunton (Mr. Barin, on a former even-
ing, to have attributed g)
to him, that he only.thought
of legislating for stocks and stones, and not for. men.
But, to effect his objeets, he wished for a different
Parliament, because, he was a little afraid of this
Parliament, that it had so little regard for the peo-
ple, that it would dip its hands into their pockets
again. He contended,- the Stocks did not affect the
interest of money, though the rate of the latter might..
have an influence on the Stocks.
Mr. BARING was still of opinion that the plait of
the last speaker to get avid of the Notional Debt was '
specious, but it was that of >t from who hadnerec stu-
died mankind, and-had lest sight or the practical one-
rationsof his plans upon human nature.--,tHeer).—
The Hon. Gentleman still admitted_ that a Sinking
Fund was a good thing, and -yet he did not wish it
kept up. When Gentlemen told them of the advan-
tages of the repeal of taxation, they ought always to .
add what the. consequence to a great country would .
be if it.were suddenly plunged into a war. He did
not say that the Sinking Fund should be taken to
support war, because wars were more expensive thah
the amount of the surplus revenue of any country,
and therefore they were obliged to borrow ; and that
could never be done so advantageously as where a
Sinking Fund was established—(Hear).—Could any
one believe the Hon. Member for Aberdeen when he
said a Sinking Fund left us more in &WlC'', when
a person attempted to persuade him.that. he: was in
darkness when the room was full of candles, Ite.(Nr.
Bariug) never listened to such arguments--(ffearj.
The House should not be at all discouraged that' font..
or five millions were not sufficient for a very.er--''
fective Sinking Fund, and especially if 'the country •
were allowed td remain at peace. He 'was so strongly •
convinced that they were pursdlng a tight course in '
maintaining pnblic credit, that be shati)d
ssupport the
original isr monon„ though-he knenoihirig,to"preiktit
the putting 'ciff the subject till July, if any good : '
son were adduced why it should be so. postponed.
Mr. WARRE said, the House was; day after-day, •
entertained with a display of tba lucubtations and
plans of the two last speakers, and he thigh; apt*
them the distich in a humorous publication; that ty-.
Puzzled by explanation,. • •
• And confusEd by elucidation ! -
He did not choose to follow either of them, sous to
tie up his hands from enabling him in the course or .
this Session to move for the reduction of any parti-.;
cular tar. He would take the liberty of recommend-
ing to the 'Chancellor of the Exchequer, to consider
whether reduction of further taxes might not be made,
even with a view to the increase of the Reveries...lie:
declared most solemnly that he had no intention pt.
crippling Ministers at the present crisis. Before the
end of. the Session, we perhaps would be' placed in
such •.ts crisis as would-require the hand; of the Go.'
yernment to be in some degree strengthened.. Hesoished
however to Tote for the motion of his Hon. Friends.
Mr, CALGRAFr said, as none of the MilistmD4
spoken, be should not say a word in reply.
'The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQMVIiiii;"
but remained for some time standing -before he could,
iletain a hearing. He then said, that had-the House
condescended to base listened, to him,, they would.
have known that he-was not going-to break drotigh
the rules of the House by speaking to the question
upon which discussion was closed, but to plead:indis-
position as the motive of his silence-flears 401,
H aving.o pon two occasions verysecently gone through,
at some length, and with much painful elortioni
topics which had been again. brought, under, dischs•
sion that evening, he thought he might be allowed to
remain a spectator, rather than a participator in the
debate—(//ear, hear).--41e begged also to add, that
as be had heard nothing new introdoced-into the
diac,ussion, and the Honourable Mover' had - an-.
0/.Gentlemen on
. hits nstOmle 6(4 .
•
( eir),—he more .etpe6mlljr„coasiderid he
rjht field to the impatience tipr the'Huate;
without disrespect to die- ileac:, Moresioet-tbe
Seek; abstain from taking opitiO,retitnen4fleasj. ,
,Mr. CALCRAFT said, if the iiishxt 419Rejkok
Gentleman was indisposed•to *OM ..11•Ve es .
-the Ministerial tide might do in% ' sif
\:,1470; ettiOirite aitesiiirsilr7
nave' Novae Ow divided WCIONAWIOIII4OIIO6.**.
Assiisst it, 93-Majority, •36. oii
.he • Resolutions weee, =la iwr
- 'llllll4* O'CliaCk"rr - 4,1;e
bi49l/1-dzbl•likft

Br Parilitnastary- Parrs : 41111110134( *
Rao iitiat in: the /eat' ending itutttary "
britistulnantstions, amonnteik to 3.20111,8911*WWG.
flootations 1ig,953 cwt. liffa d*.4lllll2lAtillV~ialto
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dud.; ug. sagaitAttiflortfll/41-itiwittnlt4 tti IP31911011611.: Via lawilf). -
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• I.

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