Star.
London, England, 1824-02-11 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 11. 1824.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY W.
Prayers were read, at half-past three o'clock, by the Bishop of
LIMERICK.

Soon afterwards the Earl of ST. GERMAINS (late Colonel Eliot,
and brother of the deceased Earl) was introduced on his elevation
to the Peerage, by letters patent, being supported by the Earl of
Iliatitowar and Earl Sostras, and preceded by Garter King at
Arms ; when, after taking the oaths and his seat, he shook hands
with the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack.

The principal Clerk then proceeded to call over the House, when
excuses were made for several Peers, among whom was the Bishop
of SALISBURY' who stated his age to be 76; and, upon corning to
the name of Lord RCDZSDALE, his Lordship said he believed he
might plead to be excused, on the ground that he was upwards of
70 years of age.

The LORI) CHANCELLOR.—Your Lordships will never be
too old to benefit us by your attendance in this House.
The Earl of DARNLEY rose, as their Lordships were pro-
ceeding to a ballot, and reminded them that he had expressed his
intention last Session of bringing before the House that ina.t im-
portant subject, the state of Ireland. He hoped to have been re-
lieved front this responsibility by the interferenee of Noble Lords
more competent than himself to so arduous an inquiry ; but he had,
risen in order to remind their Lordships that he had not forgotten
the pledge made last Session by him. It was true, indeed. that the
situation of Ireland was now unite immediately under the consi-
deration of the English Gov:Atm-nem than it had formerly bzen;
and he was willing to admit, that its circumstances were partially
ameliorated. But he would put it- to the llouse, whether it was
not worth while to consider the propriety of adopting some other
great line of policy, by which the grievances of that country might
be entirely remedied? The present time he considered to be most
proper for considering the subject dispassionately, and therefore the
fittest for altering the policy which had been pursued in the Go-
vernment of that country. Impressed with these views, it was his
intention to move that their Lordships should be summoned for
the consideration of the state of Ireland, on Tuesday, the 2d of,
March next; when he hoped for the attendance and assistance of
many Noitle Lords acquainted with that country, arid particularly
that of the Noble Viscount (Lorton) who so ably seconded the
Address on the first day of the Session. That more infortaation
might in the meantime be laid before their Lordships with regard
to the situation of Ireland, and especially the operation of the Ex-
cise in that country, he should move for various Returns to be laid'
upon tha table of the House.
The Noble Earl afterwards moved that a Message should be
sent to the House of Common; requesting them to communicate
to their Lordships a Copy of the Report of the Select Committee
on the Employment of the Poor in Ireland. He also moved for
Returns of the amount of First Fruits in Ireland, as calculated to
show the operation of Tithes in that country ; and for some other
Papers ; which motions were agreed to.
Upon the coticlusion of the Appeal Ballot, which lasted till nearly
six o'clock, the House adjourned till to-morrow morning.

acquitted. In 195 cases bills were not found, and in 26
no prosecution took place, making, in one year, 699
committed and afterwards discharged. This was a
most serious question for the consideration of Govern-
ment. -Daring the same period 420 were committed
by the Magistrates of London, and there were but 79
cases in which bills were not found. He intended
shortly to move for a return of the numbers committed
from each Police Office within a certain period, and he
would reserve to that time any observations he had to
make on the conduct of Mr. Swabey, Sir Dank' IVil-
hams, and Mr. Dyer. What recompence, he would ask,
.could be made to the petitioner for the stain cast upon
his character in consequence of having been thus
thrown into prison ? Besides the injury to character,
he suffered considerably in a pecuniary way, :old his
labour was now mortgaged to those iiien,k who came
forward to assist him, and to supply the expenses of an
appeal. He did not mean to say Ora previous to the,
Vagrant Act a person might not have been committed
on the evidence of a single witness. But there were
many .other objections to the Act; and he thought as
it was not to expire until September, it should not he
suffered to remain so long without amendnient. Befoie
it passed there was IIJ such thing as a reward of five
shillings on. conviction.
Mr. DAWSON said, this was not the proper time for
going into the various subjects alluded to by the Ho-
nourable Gentleman. If there were any objections to
the Vagrant Act, the House would have an opportunity
of removing them, either in the course of the Session or
when the Act expired. He bad inquired into the facts
of this particular case, and when he stated them, he
trusted the House would see that an improper degree of
severity had not been resorted to. This person was going
home at a late hour, and met with a woman of the
town. The watchman detected these parties in a most
open and flagrant exposure of person, and they were in
consequence brought before Sir Daniel Williams. The
only defence set up by the petitioner was, that the charge,
had been brought for the purpose of obtaining money.
He did not attempt to deny the truth of it. The truth
was,•however, that the watchman never obtained a six-
pence. The petitioner was sentenced to a month's im-
prisonment : he appealed to the Sessions, and the infor-
mation was quashed on the mere ground of' technicality.,
The merits of the case were never examined. The fe-
male, who was well known as a woman of the town,
served out a month in prison. It was clearly an act of
vagrancy of the most open and indecent kind. The
• Magistrate, therefore% hod no alternative but to send the
parties to prison. .
Mr. LITTLETONroffrbe itniw nothing of the me-
rits of the Caieldluded'to,. 6r of the various others for
which blathe had been thrown on the Magistrates. He-
mse for the purpMe of saying,* few words with refer-
ence' t 6 lfi>i isionodrefAi Friend the Member for Staf-
ford Abir. Cherwynd), who was the author of the Bill.
He knew that his Honourable Friend had bestowed great
pains on it, and that one great object with him was to
mitigate-the severity of former Acts with iegard-to va-
grancy. This he bad effectually done, however objea,,
tionable the ineasfwe might appear in other respects.—!
By- the aid law, a
.person tnikht be punished with trans,.
pm-talon fa seven yeah. The utmost limit of punish,
'ment .allowed by thepresent Act was itnprisoitinent for
=two sears and a half. Formerly a Magistrate might
diredt a vagrant to lie whipped: Such 'a punishment
contd not be inflicted now but after conviction ar the
Quarter sessions. So far was his Honourable Frietrd
from desiring to act with severity, that a 'discretion was
lent to the Magistrates to dismiss any case. As his Hat
nourable Friend was detained for a few cliis from at-
tending his duty in Parliament, and was perhaps better;
acquainted with the subject than any other man, having
devoted much of his time to it, he was desirous that no
proposition on the subject should be submitted to the
House until his Honourable Friend was present.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said the Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Hume) in the course of his speech, touched upon a
variety of subjects, which could not have been naturally.
expected in presenting such a PetitiOn as thii. He did,
'not mean at all to deny the importance' of these sub-;
jects ; but when the Honourable Member communicated
to him his intention of offering the Petition tothe House,'
he did not give .the slightest intimation of a wish to'
touch upon so many collateral topics. The communi,
cation, therefore,' made by the Honourable Gentleman
was rather calculated to mislead than to prepare him
for the observations into which he bad gone with re-
spect to the conduct of the Magistrates. He could as-
sure the Honourable Gentleman that he was not remiss
in his duty in reference to the subject. Some Petitions
had been sent to the Home °dice relative to cases of
conviction under the Vagrant Act, on which he sub-
mitted such advice to the Crown as he judged expe-
dient under the circumstances. In this instance, how-
ever, no Petition had been sent in, either by this indivi-
dual or the woman convicted with him. 01 course it
could not be expected that he knew anything at the cir.
cumstance. It was rather hard to blame the Magistrate
for the manner in which he exercised his discretion in
this case. He did not see how, after the evidence, he
could have actedotherwise. The watchman was a per-
son against whose character there was no impeachment.
The defence set 'tip by the Petitioner was, that watch-
men were proverbial for dishonesty, cupidity, and igno.
ranee. If the watchman had an honest character, and
no fair suspicion could attach to his testimony, the Ma•
gistrate must convict, Toe Vagrant Act did not make
-it necessary that upon conviction a reward of ss. should
be given. It was left to the discretion of the Magis-
trates to give it or not, as the case might seem to re-
quire. By the former Act the reward upon conviction
was 10.. Ile (Mr. Peel) wok an opportunity of seeing
all the Nlagistrates, and informed them that they:were
to exercise a discretion in giving the reward of live shil-
lings.; that the Act did not render it at all obligatory.-
- Though his Honourable Friend the Member fOr
Stafford had nothing in view but the good of the
,public in bringing this measure before the llouse,
there were some parts where an alteration might
,be beneficially introduced. What was meant by in-
decent exposure should be more clearly pointed out.
No.person could attach the same degree of guilt to the
Accidental exposure which sometimes arose from neces-
lief, and to that flagrant species of it which was too

[Pates SpayNN-ps/4

common, and had been carried to a most disgusting
length. The Magistrates should also have the pOWer
of committing fni- a shorter period than one month.
He admitted, with the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Hume), that great care should be taken in the selection
-If stipendiary Magistrates. On this subject he trusted
'there could be found no ground for complaint.' Both
he and his predecer.or Acted upon regulations which
could hardly fail to secure Gentlemen qualified to dis-
charge the duties of the situation in' a proper manner.
The rule upon w hich he proceeded was, to appoint no
person who had not been called to the Bar, and prac-
tised for three year. He never made aoy previous en-
gagements cur the filling up of such places. His object
being to select those aho were most fir, he waited till
the proper opportunity occurred. The Honourable
Gentleman not having given any intimation of his in-
tention to introduce the names of those Magistrates to
whom he alluded, lie was deprived of the opportunity
of looking into the cases which the Honourable Gentle-
man seemed to think afro' ded some gerund for censure.
Two of the cases he brought forward were completely
different. One was only a misdemeanour; the other a
felony. The Magistrates, in those insta::ccs, had no dis-
cretion. In one, bail could not be refused ; in the
ether, it could not be taken. Another subject to which
the Honourable Gentleman alluded, was in itself of
the highest importance—he meant the comparative
number ofcommittals by Police Magi' trates and the Ma.
gistrates of the City. But here again it was impossible
to be provided with answers, as the subject had been .
brought on quite unexpectedly. The Honourable Gen-
tleman did not state whether or not the committals al-
: luded to were committals in execution. It was mate-
rial to ascertain that. If they were, on one side, com-
mittals in execution, the difference might not be so
great•as it seemed. When the Honourable Gentleman
(Nlr. Hume) moved for the Returns to which he alluded,
there would be an opportunity of entering into the sub-
ject, and he should have no objection to communicate
every information in his power. There could be no
motive for concealment.

The Petition was then read. It was signed by a
person named Lotchpoole.
Mr. HUME said, that the subject to which he al•
hided naturally grew out of the petition. He thought
he gave the I{fight Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel)
sufficient intimation of his intention. He could not
have done more, unless he submitted his speech to the
inspection of the Right Honourable Gentleman. It ap•
peared from the petition, that the person whose name
was signed to it, denied the statement of the watchmen
altogether. He (Mr. Hume) :attached no blame to the
Home Office on the subject. He found no fault with
the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Peel). But with
respect to this case, and, others.on which conviction fol•
lowed before the Magistrates, he would ask whether
any individual Member of that House %e as not liahle to

be brought into the same situation ? (A lattgh.)--.There
was no person who, it' asked by a female her way to any
particular street, would act so little like a man as to re-
f Use pointing it out, or even conducting her there.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, he.could nut admit that
the petitioner's politeness was pUrely accideh(at.'' The
ease was clearly proved 'against him. He had no desire
that the
.Honour•able Gentleman should' favour him
with theperusilof his speeches ; but,Ao obtain the info..
, • tioche wished, it Would be necessary to giie sortie
ihfrirtniticnt of the subjects to whielr he intended tti
.The Petition *As 'ordered to lie on the table.
On the question that the Petition fie prictitt; the'gal.
levy was cleared for a division, but none took place.
4
• rIZZLAt:D.
Lord 'ALTHORP said, he rose to, move for a series
of Returns connected with Ireland, He hai4 ee thins.
diate connexion with that country, but he coiiiderod k
the duty of an Englishnian as well al of an Irisinnan to
attend to it., interests. Intending to. bring for' scud a
motion relating to the general state of that country,
he felt it necessary, with.that view, to call fOi. returns
relative to-its Revenue, the state of the Church, and the
mode in which the laws had been executed with respect
to the appointment of Rocnin Cathelics to thine situa-
tions to which they were "eligible. Though the papers
laid upon.the table might shew the state of the Revenue
generally, he wished to bring it within the shortest
compass. He would therefore nioirelifilr -the gross and
net amount of the Customs and...revenue during two
years, up to January, 1821. The neat motion would be
the amount of money levied by Grand Juries. It was
impossible to look at the state of Ireland and not see the
importance of a good resident Clergy, when So many
lauded proprietors were ai.)sent. If they wanted an in-
stance of the good that might be thus effected, he
might mention one person lately promoted to the See
of 'Limerick. His conduct had been such as to pre-
vent the occurrence of any outrages in the parish
over which he presided, though it was situated in
the most disturbed part of the country. He did not
know Dr. Jebb, but be was glad to have this op•
portunity of bearing testimony to his merits. Another
return therefore for which he should move was, the
nanre of all incumbents, specifying those who resided,
and those who did not. It was also important that they
should know the present state of Chula property. It
was not his intention to overturn that property, either
in England or Ireland. His view, was not to injure the
I::,tablitninent, but it was deniable that thf
House should know the number of acres at present in
the pusses, ion of the ClnirCh. He wished to have it stated
how many Roman Catholics had bean appointed to all
these offices. He thought it material- that the House
should posseis that information, because it might greatly
'assist them in forming their judgment how far tire Ro•
man 'Catholics of Ire!and were likely to 'be contented
with their! present situation. Ile should also move for
a•list of Roman Catholic Barristers enjoying patents of
precedence in Ireland, during the last five years; and for
fists of Ito Man Catholics holding appointments as Clerks
of the PCiiee, Cie: ks of the Crown, and Crowa Solicitors.
On. the question being put on the Ali,tion for a Re-
turn of the nu,irber of Parishes in lieland, with the
minks of the present Incumbents, specifying those who
resided'on their livings, and those who did not—
Mr. GOULBURN ruse, he said, not with any inten-
tion of opposing the .Motion,
there was no person who bad cu he was sure that
heardj him deliver his opi-

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