Star.
London, England, 1805-05-14 00:00:00

ear, there retlrizi;ens were to cootinne for ever. I
nave thought it incumbent or. me to quote fo rerpeCt:
ed en authority, bee:tore, when I hear that the higher
of the clergy affect to entertain alum for the
Ettahlithment, it is ;wooer :o have it undertlood
that o,ie who is fo well known as a friend to that
Ettabhihrnent, and who is diaingufhed by his know-
ledge on lubje3s of that defeription, did not antici-
pate any extraordinary danger from the meafure-
which it is my prefent object to recommend. Dil.
milling then this part of the rubjeCt, I go on to con-
fider another objection drawn from the particular
time at which the meafure is to he brought forward.
For my own part,viewing the lubjeCt as I do, I really
cannot conceive that any time would be improper
tor introducing it to the confideration of this Houle.
however, I take all the circumstances of the
vale into coniidetation, I cannot but think the (ier-
:ion ft far from having been prematurely dirculTed,
it eight in propriety to have been agitated immedi-
aely alter the great meafure of the Union was carri•
ed in this country and in Ireland. It is needlefs for
Inc n. w, Sir, to enter into any dilcutlion of the po-
licy of that meafure. I (toted the rounds on which
I wag decidedly hod:le to it, and I have hitherto teen
no reason to change that opinion. Whether, how-
e •er, the measure tit: right or wrong, I do fay that
if the expectations of the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land were railed by tile view of the confequences
which v.:te to follow that event, their expectations
tooth: not to have been difippoinol. It was cer-
tainly held nut to the Rumor. Catholics, that if the
Union a c carried, a period would aro ive when the
te(iriion ceder which they laboured would be
removed, and their rights as citizens and men would
he reamed. Here ajotin I am called to take no-
tice of an ob.:I:onion :Tahiti the Emancipation, by the
apalicattea r,f practice againit theory. I confefs, Sir,
I have always Leen, and never (hall ceafe to be, an
advoceve for pradice above theory, properly under-
ttaad ant wifely applied. Though I admit this, let
me not tioderitood as at all admitting the princi-
tar, di tt leeetity is more expedient as applicable to
the ati'airs of Ireland, than raeatures of wile concilia-
tion ill!CI liberal policy. I know it may he laid, that
under the vigorous tylleal ad-tpted by Government,
raw to the act:el:ion of his pi etent the tran-
qoiility of lo:Lind was pre.erved ; that in both the
rebellions cf 11715 and 1745, the Catholics of Ireland
teak no part in a !trugglc which had for its princi-
lad rbjeCt to place a Catholic Prince on the Throne.
I ma) he told alto, that from 1793 to 7798, was, in
bele:l2, a .`cent of conflant infurreChon, and that at
the latter pctiod a defperate effort was made to
thake off all connection with the Government or
Legiflazure of this Country. Sorry indeed, thmild
I he if loch a reprefentation could not be &tif-
f-40:Lily refuted ; for otlierwife we should be com-
pelled to admit, that a fyilem of coercion was the
malt expedient for keeping down the fpirit of dif-
content, among a people ;—that the grand princi-
ples of liberty were to be let afide, and that flavery
was to bear (way in a nation profeffing to be free.
If perfecution were to he the only medium through
which we can retails Ireland, then, Sir,,it would
indeed become a lamentable alteraative••whethei it
ought to be totally abandoned or retained by fuch
n;eans as tlosfe I have now defcribed. I fee no need-
lity, however, for retorting to fuch a delperate
cont ruction of the circumliances of Ireland, when
it is fo eafy to account for the (late of Ireland
from a 793 to 1798 on very fatisfadory principles.—
reland during that period was certainly expofed to
vet y peculiar difficulties, and it is furely needlefs for
me to fay, that they were greatly augrueated by the
circomitances of the French Revolution. I need not
ronivid the Houle, that the inhabitants of the North
of lieland had long been dirtinguilbed above every
other part GI the population by their fuperior induf-
try, Intelligente, and wealth, though it is notorious
they ware rot equally remarkable for their attach-
men: to Eoglith conne&iem. Previous to the French
Peevolution the Catholics had no bonds of mutual
union with this paet of the It ifh population. Oa the
contrary, they were kept afender by the (hiking cot -
traricty of their religious creed. It was the French
Revolution that united thefe two heterogencus bodies. ,
It was a Inling of what they conceived common op-
proffion ;hat kept them together during the delperate
flrug,gle which the Rebellion gave rife to.—But, Sir,
this is not the only view of the cafe to be taken into
confaderation. The Houle cannot have forgot the cir-
cumaances of Lord Fitzwilliam's adminitiration. Did
he not hold out to the Catholics of Ireland the pro-
filen of complete and abfolute emancipation ? I know
a dooht was ttarted how far he was authorized by the
Minitters here to give fuch a pledge to the Catholics.
Without now entering on the eifcuffinn of this point,
it is tofileient to fay, that the Lord Lieutenant of
that day, after having made this ;ledge, was recall-
ed, and that a motion for following up that pledge,
was 101 l in this Houle. The Catholics, upon fee.
keg all their hopes fruarated, all their bell found-
ed tereCtations dilappointed, were doubtlefs tsar.
perated hi no ordinary degree. Was it nothing, Sir,
that a pledge fo folemnly given was neglected ?
Was it not natural that high expo Cations difappointed
terminated in defpondency, and that this feeling fug-
gelled the unfortunate idea of connexion with France,
which at no former period of the laa century had
willed ? We are told, however, in all probability with
the view of aggravating the guilt of the Catholics,
and veiling the criminality of the Miniflers of that
day, that the inquiries of the trill Parliament fully
}roved the. Catholics to he bent on aboolute fepara-
tioo, and that they regarded Catholic Emancipation,
and Itc!Osrn in Parliament, as nothing better than a
strop of ink compared with their more extended oh..
jeLt. This is all true, but is it the whole of what thefe
in-lollies brought to light ? Did it not at the fame
tar,;-- aprear that thefe fame perfons who made this
declaration. at the fame time confeffed that if Catho.
iic I:maneiparion and a Reform in Parliament had
ta:ca ;trotted, then all profped of a fuccefs'ul inturrec-
fon we•tild have been dellroyed? They knew the cited
corciliatory meafures, and they dreaded their ap-
tdirecion. They wcrc fenfible that it the: meafures
vo.re well applied it would be quite ridiculous to think
of a. ;aching the feelings of the people of Ireland
from their conneCtion with this country. It is per-
fo!.!!y tinder flood that the Catholics had the higheh
halos from the afrurances and pledge of Earl Fit z-
itham, and if difaarous confequences followed the
of that pledge, let thole who occafioned it
anfwer for the confequences. But how do the Ca-
delics, alter thus being duped and betrayed, (land,

after tie meafure of Union was carried in a great 7of juftice, there is a Irong call of policy in agreeing
meafure by their aftilance ?On every fide they are ito the claims oF the Petitioners. We have been em-
injored and calumniated ; on the one band by the !pinged a confiderable time both in the lag and prefent
Mini ftry, who held out hopes only to difoppoint them, ' ferion in difctitlions on the bell means of recruiting
and on the other by thofe who oppofe the Union, as • the army. Without at all elliparaging the views of
having betrayed the intereas and surrendered the my Right Hon. Friend nn the fame Bench (Nlr.Wind-
berties of their country. It was nut, Sir, on light Ihnm), I mutt be allowed to fay, that neither aarith
grounds that the Catholic, hoped, under the Impe. bills enliqing men for time or procuring them for rank
rial Parliament, for the conceflion of all the claims —neither volunteering from the Militia, nor any other
which a local Legiflature had refilled to ackn • ledee. plan for inereafingour dilpotabfe force hithertorecom-
(DA Learned Gentleman on the other fide of the I-1 ute mended or reliwted to, would he half fo effeelual as
r. Duigenan) had written a 'cites to an Hottotira the Pimple meature ref the Emancipation of the Ca-
ble Friend of mine, whom lam happy to fee near tholics of !rel.-tad. We fh"uld then receive an imme•
me, in which, alluding to the meafure of a Legit- dime and numenfe augmentation of men in carte.
lative Union, he argues that if fuch a mothoe ere quence of an aft of berogaity and jullice. We know
accompliffied, all exclusive laws and rettriation, taa character ot the firth nation, and we are not with-
would of neceffity be abolithed. I need not i. form atit the cap rieoce of what mty be expected from the
the Houfe that the learned Gentleman to whom I , warmth of their teelings,aird the livelinefs of their gni-
have alluded was, in the Parliament sf Ireland, par- titride.—We are now conre• ding agaiiiit France, cer-
ticularly hoftile to the claims of the Catholics, and tainlv a moll formidable enemy. But what is it that
conceived that the only way in which .hey could ever we have chiefly to dread in this conteß! Is it, Sir,
be acceded to, was through the medium of that Le- , French indultry, wealth, commerce, or refources ?
giflative Union which he was fu doh oils of teeing j No. hut it is the immenfe population of France, which
adopted. I put it then, in fairnels to the H oife, whet- renters her fo dangerous a toe. How then are we to
ther, when this meafure was carried, the Catholics I counterad this danger ? We have a clear method laid
had not every reafon to believe that their claims , before us. We have only to recal to our affection
would meet with immediate attention ? 'nate jars ex• t one fourth of our population, and to render that the
peetations have, for feveral years, been difregarded, I fnurce of our ftrength which was now only an addi-
and it certainly had become the duty of fume Mem- I throat code of our weaknefs. Let us then bona all
ber to bring the matter fairly tinder difeuffion. Hap feeds of animofity. Let us thew the Catholic fcldier
pily this difagreeable mode of proceeding has been and tailor, that the road to honour is alike laid open
rendered unnecelTary by the courfe which the Ciao- to all, and that he who fights ; ter battles well, fhall
tic Body themfelves, after mature deliberation, have find no diltitidion of rewar d from a grateful country.
thought it expedient to adopt. They have come for- Mr. Fox concluded, by propofing to refolve into a
ward with a loyal, dutiful, and temperate addrefs, Committee on the Petition as loon as he fat down.
reprefenting the nature and extent of 'twit claims, Dr. DUIGENAN role to oppofe the motion. He
and fairly fubmitting them to the attention of the replied to the obfervations of the loft fpeaker, with
Legiflature. They have concluded themfelves with refpeet to his publication. The opinions Rated in it
a propriety which places their loyalty and love of he !till maintained : at the fame time, he would not
good order above all fort of fufpicion, avoiding have it fuppofed that he was for excepting Catholics
all infurredinn' and difcouraging all tumult— from taking the oath of allegiance. He never thought
they have left the whole of the affair to the fo!aer that the oath of fupremacy was an exclufive law.—
determination of Parliament. Coming then to the l'he Lr arned Domtor then proceeded to comment on
difeuflion of the claims of fo great and relpedable a the Per, ion, and on the fignatures affixed to it. With
body thus prefented, I hope and tat • thefe claims regard to the first perfon whole rime appeared, the
will be fully and attentively confidered. In 0 e Earl of Shrewtbury, he had nn connexion whatever
comae of the obfervations with which I have ih .uaht with Ireland, and three others of the Peers had been
it neceffary to introduce my Motion, I have hitherto created by his preterit Majedy. From the county of
avoided taking any notice of certain mytterious info- VsT, 'ford there was only one petitioner ; from the
nuations, that it was needlefs to agitate the question counties of Louth and Down only one, and from
at the prefent moment, fince it was impollible from nineteen other counties there was no fubfcriber at all.
an objedinn in a very high quarter, that the object it. He next confidered the charader of the delegates ;
view could be obtained. Before I fit down, I mutt one of whom, named Scully, he had never knoun
fay a few words on this topic, that to grant the before. This perfon had written a pamphlet of fo re-
claims or the Catholics, would oblige his Majefly prehenfible a defeription, that he was furpriled he
to violate his Coronation Oath. This is an idea Should be fent in filch company. The Hon. Member
utterly month-ow; and abfurd. I only defire, that read fume extracts from this pamphlet. In one pal.
any man will look at the Coronation Oath, and I am fage, the writer, (peaking of tome hiftorical fad, laid,
confident, he will fee that no fuch conclution can be that a certain perfon had died, while gallantly de-
drawn, as that fume individuals with to confider as tending his pnit againft a Dutch invader (meaniag
the nece(fary refult of the meafure of Emancipa• King William III.) He had alto called the Parl;a-
hon. If we were to fuppofe King William alive at ment of Ireland a mere club !route. The Learned
this moment, and the very ads in queflion were to Dollorlikewife quoted tome other parts,equallyobjec•
be repealed, would that be a violation of his Co- tinnable, and contended, that for Inch a man to have
ronation Oath, to repeal Aets which were not framed the confidence of the Catholics, clearly proved their
when his Coronation Oath took place! What then motives and views, and how much sincerity there
could King William have chile by contenting to the was in their profellions. The fcheme propafed, and
repeal ? Why, he would only have done What every the reafons urged by the Hon. Gentleman, were the
Sovereign in this country is bound to do—he would fame that were ufed by James 11. who alfo pretended
merely have bowed to the eaprefs wiffies of Parlia- that the adoption of a fimilar plan would render the
ment. The fame principle applies to the prefent So- kingdom unanimous. The Learned Dollor maintain.
vereign, who had always thevn himfelf re yto ac. ed, however, that the meafure, if carried, would ac-
cede to the wishes of his Parliament. if t coned.- tually shake the title of the King, and would exhi.
lion of the Catholic claims now be a violation of the bit his Majefly's predecetfors in the light of usurpers.
coronation oath, then all the concellions in 1793, and He read an extraet from the oath of fupremacy to
at former periods, implied an equally clear violation, prove, that there was nothing in it which might not
1 cannot then allow this objection to have any force ; be taken by Roman Catholics ; and he alfo read a
nor can lat all go into the idea, that becaufe there is great number of documents, to prove the danger of
no profpelt of carrying a meafure, it is not on that entrusting perfons of that perfualion with power. It
account to be propofed. If fuch a principle had was one of their tenets, that no faith ought to be
been acted upon then, not one of thole meafurea, kept with heretics; and that every obligation towards
the beneficial effects of which we feel this day, not them is null. The affertions in the petition were ei-
one of thofe ads, which have illuftrated and fecured ther falfe or fallacious. It had been advanced by a
'our liberties, would have been carried. For furely, Dr. Milner, in a publication which he had tent forth
Sir, it is needlefs to imprefs on your attention, and lag week, that the Coronation Oath was not binding
the attention of the Houfe, that almoft every great on the King : but that it mull neceffatily turn up ,n
conftitutional meafure has been carried through Par- the cardinal virtues of prudence and expediency ! !
'Lament only after fevere and fuccellive exertions. I This was the dodrine of one of the principal Roman
(hall ever be the firft man to fupport his Majefly's law- Catholic Vicars in this kingdom—a doctrine win thy
Ifni authority, but I will not Infer the name of that au- alone of the French Convention, and which clearly
thority to be improperly or indecently introduced to (hewed the opinion the Catholics entertained of the
prevent full and fair difcuflion on a fubjeet the moll in- obligation of oaths. Dr. Troy and Mr. Plowden
tereaingthat could be fubmitted totheonnfideration of had inculcated tenements equally improper. No
Parliament. He who would advife the King to do an other religion had fuch a hold on mew': mends.—The
ad contrary to his coronation oath, mutt be a traitor; Hon. Member next took a Short view of the eccle
but thofe who, on a fubjelt of this fort, attempt to fiallical ettablithments in other Coimtries, z d con-
poifon the royal ear, and by falfe reprefentations tended that of all Gowen:mews. that of Great Bri-
create impreffionsunfavourable to the Catholic claims, tain demanded the exclution of Roman Catholics,
Ratter the Sovereign only to betray him. No con- not temporarily, but for ever. To admit into the
lideration of this myflerious nature ever fhall deter Legiflature men who thought it a deity incumbei t
me from the performance of what I conceive to be a upon them to dellroy heretics, would be the molt
great and important duty. The object of the motion extraordinary thing poflible. What had been their
with which I fhall conclude it then, that the Petition conduit in the feveral rebellions which had taken
of the Catholics be referred to a Committee of the place ? He controverted the statements relative to
whole Houfe, and it will then become an object of the difproportion between the Proteflants and Papists.
confideration whether the whole or any part of the In the year 1724, Dean Swift had eßimated the total
Petition is ko be conceded. There are two or three number of both in Ireland at a million and a half.—
cirCtimftances which to me appear peculiarly worthy In the year 1752, it had been Rated by Bourke, ore
of the confederation of the Committee, if it lhould of their own writers, that the Proteß ants amounted
be granted by the Houle. The cireundlances under to about 744,000, or thereabouts, and the Catholics
which Roman Catholics in the army were placed, to 1,400,000. At that time the Protettants were
would call for peculiar invelligation. As the law more than half as numerous as the Papitte. It was
now flood, Roman Catholic officers could, up to a not attempted to induce a belief that the latter'
certain rank, exercife all their duties in Ireland amounted to four millions. He was lure there were
without any penalty ; but no fooner did they Pet not five millions of people in Ireland; and was it fop.
their foot in this country and exercife the fame du- poled that Protestants did not iocreate as well as Ca-
ties, than the law of Prertumire was in force againfl tholics ? (A laugh). He had already Rated that the
them.- This then is finely an evil which loudly calls number was not in the proportion of two to one, and he
for tedrefs. The cafe of the common foldiers too de- did not believe that tile whole of both religions much
mands attention, for in many cafes Catholic foldiers exceeded three millions. At the revolution England
were in this country compelled to attend Proteßant and Wales contained 7,200.000 inuls ; Ireland, aely
places of worthip, and though complaints were made r,eoci,croci. Could Ireland have quadrupled her po-
nd redrefs was obtained. I mention thefe circumflan- pulation, when that of England and Wales was neatly
Ces as affording fpecific grounds for going into the the fame ? Betides this it Ihould be iecelleeted, that
Committee, where they may be fully contidered. I Ireland had been much more expoted to drains, ow-
know there are fume Gentlemen who are difpofed to in gto emigrations, and other circtimllances. The
'grant the right of the Catholics to officej, who think calculations made in the petition weresabfOlutely frau-
that the right of voting in either Houfe of Parliament dulent. He controlled the conduct of the Proiellants
would be attended with the utmoll danger. Others, with that of the Papifls, to the advantage of the fur.
on the contrary, think that it would not be fee to mer, who were difpoted to spend the tall drop of
admit them to the exercife of thefe high offices, but their blood, and the laltfhillioe of their money, in
that their admiflion into Parliament would not only the defence of the country. It'had been argued, that
be harmlefs but highly beneficial. On both claffes of the Catholics had deferred every degree of meth by
Gentlemen I call to fupport my proportion, for their conduet at the time of the Union, and that on
both have grounds fufficientefor going to a full invef- that account they were entitled to what they demand-
tigation of the fubjca. Ladepcadcat of au principles' ed. He Should thew how far this was the cafe, Ia

the year t 79 an A trembly of the Catholics was con-
vened in Dublin. At ilvit titre there had been no
mention of an Union. The delegates, who were
nearly fifteen hundred in number, tidied from every
part of Ireland, refolved, both colleftively and in-
dividually, to refill their emancipation, Should it be
offered on the ignominious condition of an union
with England. In £799, refolutions equally vio-
lent were paired ! He had never met with a Jaco•
bir. or a hlafphemer who was not a Ready friend
to the Catholics. Three weeks before the rebellion
great numbers took the oath of allegiance ; and the
rw,ment the rebellion broke out, they murdered all
the Proteßants they met with. Should the Petition
he granted, in lets than two Parliaments there would
be at lead eighty Roman Catholics in the Houfe of
Commons. Did Gentlemen think they would not be
making term: with the Miniaer ? would not their de-
mand he to hold the entire patronage of Ireland?—
would they not hold every office ? and what would
be the confequence ? They would fay, the Reprefenta-
' tives of Scotland have not only the patronage of their
own country, but of Ireland and of England alfo.—
That could not be refufed to the loyal Englifb Diffen-
ter, which was granted to the Irifh Papift; nor to the
Englifh what was conceded to the Ira Catholic.—
Every one of the reariCtive laws muff be repealed. Nor
wa., this r. 11: the B.llof Rights and the Ad of Settle-
ment mu ft be repealed likewife. The Bill of Rights
enafted, that if the King married a Papid, he Should
lofe his Crown—if the Heir Apparent married a Pa-
pift,lie fhould forfeit his right to the fucceffion. Would
not the Jacobins be glad to lay hold of fuch a circum-
Rance ? Would the Houle, with idl the evils before
their eyes which he had pointed oat, confent to grant
the prayer of the Petition ? The Roman Catholics
already enjoyed more civil advantages than any fob.
jeCts of the moll favoured nation. He had 'hewn in
every poffible way that their Petition was not true.
Its objeel was contrary to the Union. Every Sove-
reign swore at his coronation, that he would preferve
the At of Uniformity inviolate. It had been afferted
by the Honourable Gentleman, that Parliament
might enable the King to repeal that Statute.—
This he denied. His NI-airily was hound by his oath
to refute his fanftion to fiich an A& The Learned
Dolor would not admit that his Majelly was bound
to fanflion every Al paired by Parliament. Parlia-
ment had no fuch power as was afcribed to it ;—and
it was a Romifh doetrine to contend that it had.
( Here Mr. Grattan laughed) The Hon. Gentleman
may laugh. He knew that what he had laid was not
very agreeable to him. If the King had not the power
of refuting his fanetion, hi. office was a blank. He
was hound to preferve the Church Ellablifhment ;
and Parliament never could, in defiance of both
Unions, oiler Such a 1311 for his acceptance. The
Learned Gentleman offered a number of other °bra-
vat ions, and concluded wiLlr giving his negative to the
motion.

M. GRATTAN rare, and delivered his maiden
fpeech in fupport of the motion. He Ipoke in fub-
Itance as follows:

Sir, in offering the fentiments which I entertain
upon this very important fubjeft, I beg leave caplet-s-
-ly to (tate that I deprecate all kind of animofities,
and as the caufes have ceafed, I fincerely truft that the
animofities aiding nut of the caufes have alto ceafed.
The quellion in my mind has not been clearly under-
flood by the Learned DoCtor who has fpoken before
me. It is not a queflion for your contideration whe-
ther you will give to a few Roman Catholics the
right of fitting and voting with you in this Hoofe,
but whether you will give to an effential and vital part
of yourfelves that power and thole rights which ate
now &fired ? It is in reality a question in which
the vitality and integrity of your empire are involv-
ed. The arguments employed by the learned Doe •
for go rather to thew the neceflity of eternal dill-ca-
tion, eternal feuds, and eternal war in Ireland, than
to prove that the Roman Catholics ought not to be
admitted to a participation of equal rights and con-
Ilitutional freedom with their Proteltant fellow-
fubjeCts. Such is the vehemence of language, fo
(Irange and dangerous are the theory and praCtice
which he has advanced, that if any Catholic printer
were to pubiifh them in the fame ferious way they
have been this evening brought forward, he would
be profecuted for treafon. With refpeCt to the doc-
trines which the Learned Dater has charged the
whole RumanCatholic body with maintaining, I could
not perhaps make a better and more decifive anfwer
than by producing agaiatt his petitions and affertions
the prail:ce of the Rom.tn Catholics. The Learned
DoCtor appears to have divided his attack into four
heals. He makes an attack upon the religion itfelf,
upon the cond'nl of their anceilors as connected
with that religion, upon their prefent datrine and
praCtice, and urn their future fyflem. The limits
of clerian alone have flopped him. If I were to
follow him in all he has raid, I flould have a talk
much more arduous than I could think of executing ;
I Ihould hive to defend the Roman Catholic from his
attack, and the Protellant fr.-an Lis defence. For my
own part, Ido not think Fo too far in maintaining
that the Roman Cativ.liz may be as good and as
loyal a fubjea as any n: n. The Catholics have
indeed Iheon, that they are the votaries of the
church of Rome, but they have not thewn that they
ate the votaries of the Pope. It is rather curious,
than the Learned DoClor (horrid have produced, in
fupport of his atgono.no, ti.c tonal' of the Lateran,
than which it would be to find any thing
more ridiculous and abfard, arid which was carried
into effel three hundred years before the ettablifh-
ment of the Proterlant reiTion. Shall In filly a re-
port get abroad, that the fourth et the Lateran is an
ohjelt of al rim and fear to the Br itifh nation ? As to
the dr:alines which the Leaped DoCtor afcribes to
the Roman Catholic relic ion, loch as holding no
faith with heretics, can I do better than by letting
up other authorities againtt his, and among them
fhali I be dzemed to ni ike a w.: 4k defence in quoting
ti at of Grotius ? Or will it be neceffary for me to
fay to ne than that when the quellion was foleenoly
pot to the Univer lilies of Salamanca, of Paris, and
of Lnuvaine; the arfoer made was the fame, that
no Inch (;06trines were maintained by the Roman
Catholic Religion ? Shall I detain the Honfe in ex-
poling the abiiodity and danger of telling the Re.
man Catholics that they cannot be good fubjeets ?
—Ent the condul o; the Roman Catholics them-
felve, exem; is roe from the talk of refuting all the
charges whlc have been eferred aairift thm.
y have rioh t only repelledpr all thereg aceufatieons
by a ',lattice siireetly contrary to the Zoatioes

puted to them ; they have rot only gone beyond
the abjuration required of them, but Ciey have re-
nounced all the claims which they are charged with
entertaining. It cannot he forgotten that they did
nor fcruple to f.gn a tea which was even drawn up by
the LT aned D.-etor himself, for quieting the fcruples
and fears of their Proteliant brethren : a tell by
which they (wore to re'ped property, to be faith
ful to the King, and to maintain the Church of the
Country. It was taken by the Clergy themfelves,
and Lt me fe:ioutly prefs this plain confieleration,
that the Protetiants have no right to fay that in
taking that t,-.:1, they took an oath in which they did
not believe. It any Priaeflant, it the Learned Doc-
tor fags fo, am I not juilified in diking, did he who
was principally concerned in framing that oath,
draw it up with a view of perjuting the Roman Ca
tholics ? Did he undertake that meafure for the nor-
pole offending them more readily to the Devil? The
Learned Doctor is however unfortunately anfwcrcd
by his own tell, which went to make them Catholics
from being Papias and yet he lays that every Catho-
lic is an enemy to a Proteftant King and Church.—
In every vehement controverfy, in every difcullion
of intemperate zeal, PRoVIDENCF, we have reafon to
rfjoice, has fo dealt out the meafure of juftice, that
the lips of the bigot !hall teliify to his own retina-
Nor can I fuffer the charge to be pallid over
in lilence, that the Irifh Catholic is an enemy to
the Protellant and to the Englifh. I appeal to every
Gentleman who hears me, and feveral have had
opportunities of forming an accurate opinion on
this point, fume of them having acted as fectetaries
in Ireland, whether an Englifhman is hated in that
country ? I beg the Learned Doctor will tell me in
what county it is that neither a Proteflant nor
an Englifhman will not be allowed to live ? Rather,
Sir, permit me to fay, with all the confidence of
honefly and truth, that there is not a tingle county in
Ireland in which they do not love the men, no mat-
ter of what religion, or of what country, who will
life them well." [Here Mr. Grattan, having taken
a Runt review of the rebellion in Ireland from 141,
contended as a fixed principle, that there did not cz
ift in the Roman Catholic religion any permanent
caufe of war, and having alluded to the miferies caul-
ed by the lamentable difputes of feCtaries, he declar-
ed if events had not tended to improve the !late of
the country, there mull have been tomething fo effen-
tially bad in the frith mind as to caufe the curie of
their forefathers to be preferved and handed down
as an inheritance to their children.]
4‘ If it be faid (continued Mr. Grattan) that the
rebellion in 1798 was not a Jacobinical rebellion,
but a religious one, I fhall content myfelf with de-
nyii:g it, arid ground my denial on an appeal to the
reports of the Committees of both Honks of Parlia-
ment,
and to the dilpatches of the Lord-Lieutenant,
declaring the North to he in rcbelli In, and the South,
where there was a much greater number of Catho-
lics, to be in a hate of tranquilhty. It has been ad-
vanced, and I candidly admit the liatement, that
the conceflions made to the Catholics were very
great. They furely were, and they were received
with gratitude, and produced the molt beneficial
effects, from 1778 until 1792 and 1793, when the
tights of man were preached up. The fpeech then
made from the Throne was diftinguithed by its wif-
dom, and a petition was the refult. But it appear-
ed that the Irifh Government did not agree with the
Englifh Government in that relpeCt, and having
profecuted the petitioners as defenders, it was thought
beft to hang them. The Lint Catholic found the hot-
tility of Government againil him worfe than the hofti-
lity of the law. I cannot but confider the Roman
Catholic religion, abltratied from Popery, as con-
taining twoobirds of Chriftianity, fit for all govern-
ments, while I look upon the impediments to that
fitnefs as arifing out of the policy of man ; and ar-
guing by analogy, I feel myfelf jtatified in laying,
that the fame caufes which have made the Protef-
tants of Ireland happy, would he attended with the
fame confequences, if allowed to operate on the
_ _ _

Catholics of Ireland. But Genticmen keen to think

that the objetis of the Petition are matters of little
• importance. Upon their weight and magnitude, it
is not reqiiitite for me to enter into a long difctiffion.
It is fufficient for us to know, that they conflitute
the fubjeEt of fair and legitimate defires, fince they
are enjoyed by their Proteftant fellow-lubjeets ;
and the Roman Catholic has as much right to tight
for his guinea as you have to fight for your thoutand
pounds. They have in fad their rights acknowledged
by law ; and in five A.ls, which palled from 1778
to 1793, you will find thefe rights proclaimed and
recognized. You a•itl find, that they all hare the
Catholics to be a loyal people, and that the proprie-
ty is eltablithed of admitting them to a participa-
tion of tights in all civil and military employments.
Thofe, therefore, who argue againft their claims, are
anfwered by the law; and I confequently confider
the Catholics as identified in principle with the Prow
teflants in the (+jells of their Petition. There are',
about thirty-eight offices to which they afpire, (I
leave out fome of a fubordinate nature,) and I can
difcover no folid reafon, unlefs we admit the reli-
gious doctrines imputed to them to be loch, that
ibould deny to them the capability of filling their
fituations. They pay their (hare of eight millions
of taxes; they fupply the army and navy with one,
third, or one fourth of their numbers, and yet they
have not a finglc commiffion in either. Wh;le we
preclude them from an handl and noble ambition
to attain honours which are (hared by their Pro-
teftant Countrymen, we fhould not forget, that we
deny to them that growth of mind which is moll
valuable to a country, and which, of all things, moll
tends to the civilization, to the greatnefs, and to the
happinefs of qi lime. It is really too much to hear
the charge of barbarifm made againft them. They
cannot well be stigmatized as barbarous who export
a million of coin, and pay eight millions of taxes.
If I am anced what it is that retards civilization, thei e

can be no difficulty in anfwering, that it is the anima-
l': y of religion ; and if tile arguments fet up againft
them are to go for any thing, they will be found to
go againft the laws, not againil their religion. The
motion of my Honourable Friend is marked by a ju•
dicious moderation ; and the effeel will be height
-•ed by the candour and promptitude of conceffion.
•• feems that all fie fears, all the alarm, all the
)rmerly infpired by the Pope have not yet
The Pope is however but a mere name ; hik
infilled in opinion ; and fince he was taken
by the French Conful, he has completely loft
influence wiling out of opinion. But were

the opinion by which he was once fo powerful re-
amed, how would it affeet us ? If fix or ten Catho
lies elated to fit in this Houfe were altually excom-
municated, what then ? Are you not afraid at this
moment of his excommunicating the one-third of
your navy and army ? But Bonaparte has got the
Pope, and the frith Catholics would rather follow
the Pope, and be the (Lives of Bonaparte, than be
the fellow fubjeCts, with (goal right, of En2lifh-
men ! Hnw grange is the dilemma to which you
reduce yourfelves by there frivolous apprehenfions !
What will yin do wish your army, with your navy.
with your wives ? I with. for my own part, to avoid
all recrimination, becaufe, in every contelt of that
kind, religion mull fall a vielim. The infant feta-
ries let themfelves adrift from Heaven, they will tear
up the foundation of their faith, to pelt each other
with the fragments. Much lir& has been laid upon
the Revolution and the Bill of Right', for the pur-
pofe of defeating the motion. For one hundred years
there was a profcription of property, a profcription
of religion, a profcription of confliortion. In my
mind the grand principle of the Revolution, is the
principle of civil and religious toleration, which by
propagating and diffufing itfelf through all claffes and
all delcriptions of lubjeCts, tends to the happinefs of
the whole empire. In reading the Petition of the
Univerfity of Oxford, I find it taken for gra:.ted, that
the Roman Catholics are the enemies of liberty. The
Bill of Rights is founded upon the petition of rights ;
but let it not, Sir, be forgotten that the great char-
ter is the foundation of both, and that it was obtain-
ed by your Roman Catholic anceflors ! If you refute
the objeCts prayed for in the Petition now before the
Houfe, you will ellabliffi as a principle, that Ireland
is to be encouraged by promoting religious diffen-
tion, and that by dividing and weakening the people,
you will ftrengthen the Govenment ; a principle
conipofed of a party Government and a party Goo.
If your incorporation with the Parliament of Ire-
land has given you flrength, would not an incor-
poration with the people of Ireland be adamant ?
As there fhould he no Inch thing as an exclufive
PROVIDENCE, neither fhould there be any fuch thing
as exclufive rights and -benefits. grich was your
opinion when you recruited in Ireland for your
navy and army. If your Admirals and Generals
ordered the Roman Catholics under their command
out of their 'hips and out of their ranks in the hour
of danger, in the moment of battle, what would be-
come of you ? Your empire would evaporate ! Let
me then, Sir, entreat the Houfe to turn, and look at
the magnitude of their danger. Aultria may esift as
a fecond nation—Pr uffia may cult as a fecond nation.
But you have linked your being with your greatnefs ;
and when you have ceafed to be great, you are no-
thing. Ireland is vulnerable ; I admit it. Why ?
Becaufe you have governed her ill. You have voted
an army and navy from Ireland, but you forgot to
vote your freedom to that country. That is the vote
which is neceffary to produce and encourage that
quality of mind upon which you can ingraft that high
fpirit and atnbition which are neceffary to meet, to
overcome the perils of the time. Let your freedom
be diffufed through Ireland, and the will loon be-
come a part of your ftrength. Do not withhold
from her in her weaknefa the regimen that has
made you ftrong. Give to Ireland the benefits you
have promifed ; you can afford, and you are bound to
give. Give then, and your union will nut be nomi
nal—you will MEd, create, infpire, confolidate. You
have, fence the union, added 40 millions to her debt,
and tome millions to her taxes—Will you add nothing
to her freedom and comforts ? Since you have ex-
tingniffied the Irifh Parliament, what have you done
for Ireland? I followed the courfe of that Parlia-
ment for fourteen years—l mean from the affertion
of its independence in 1781—and there were many
meafures of great national benefit which refulted
from their deliberation. Do you exceed them. The
violence of party and its oppofition to the fentiments
and interefts of the great body of the people, led to
the abolition of that Parliament. Do you take care
that a fimilar oppofition on your part may not lead
to a fimilar confequence. Do not legiflate like chil-
dren, by refilling upon childi(h i;rounds, the Rrong
claims of the Catholics. As you are at war v ith a na-
tion, that relies principally upon the friperiority of her
population, render all your population effeetive. In-
Read of buying foreign aid with fubfidies, buy the aid
of your own fubjeas with kindirefs (a cry of Lear!
Lear!) Depend upon it that if you refufe the ap-
plication of the Catholics now, you will regret it and
be ready as loon as poffible to atone for your rnillakz.
The caufe of the Catholics is too flrong to be with
flood. Remember the cafe jn Ireland between the
years 1792 and 93, when the Trilh Parliament made
a complete change in their refolution refperfling the
Catholics. You will. if you rejerft the motion of my
Hon. Friend. rely on it, have to imitate the condo&
of the irifh Parliament. The fuccefs of the Catholic
claims is certain. Nothing can endanger it but any
turbulency in its favour. Bot I hope and troll the
Catholics will not by their conduCt ri(k the charader
they have obtained.—Let them rely on their allegi-
ance and the jullice of their claims, and they mull
triumph. While I addrefs this to the Catholics. Jet
me alto exhort you to retied upon the neceffity of
conciliation. I remember that during a former re-
bellion in Ireland you expended zo millions of your
wealth, and much of your bell blood, without adding
one inch to your territory or any thing to your fecu-
rity. Let me warn you to guard againtl future rebel-
lions and difcontents ; let me urge you to remove the
great caufe of dilcontents, by that bane, religious dif-
cord.
That is irremoveable while the penal code
remains—Remove that, then, and Irifhmen will fight
the foreign enemy—not one another. We Bull flrive
to forget what is pall, and look only to the future.
Following the advice of a Daly, a Buelse, and a
Flood, names ever dear to Ireland, let us leek the
improvement of that country, as molt efrential to the
reconciliation of its inhabitants. Let us learn lams
of wifdom from our adverfity ; while half of Europe
is in battalion, will you Rand contending about myf
ter ies ? -but I am exhaufted."-s—Here the Honourable
Gentleman fat down.

The ATTORNEY GENERAL profetred him-
felf el, anxious to concur in any meafure, which had
for its ()Ned the confolidation of the fir;ngth and in-
tad} of the country, as either of the two Hon. Gen.
tleruen who had fupported the motion ; but the propel-
fition of the Hon. Member who opened the debate,
did not appear to him in any way calculated to meet
that end. The Hon. Gentleman had Rated the ab-
araa queftion of right with his WWI pexcifloo, but

certainly not fo flrnng as he might have done, nor
could he agree with him in the inferences he endea-
voured to deduce front it. The Hon. mover of the
queition argued, that no danger was to be apprehend-
ed at prefent in admitting Catholics to the reprefen.
tative privilege ; poffibly not. Great numbers may
not come in at fir ft, but Parliament was to look pro-
fpeCtively to the area of the meafure, and the proba-
ble line of cnnduet that would be purfued by them,
when they timid obtain a (hare in the reprefenta-
tioh. He did not fuppore that they would endeavour
to recal, and replace upon the Throne, a branch of
a family which had been formally excluded. He did
not fuppnfe that they would endeavour to take away
all the tithes ft-fin the Proteflant Clergy, for the
purpile of giving them to their own ; but if a pro.
pofition were made to take away part of the tithes
from the Protestant Clergy, for the porpole of con-
ferring them on the Catholic clergy, he was not lure
that many worthy men may not be found inthat Houle
to entertain it, and, in the event of a divifion, lie
was foie the Catholic reprefentation would be as a
dead weight in the fcale. He timid not take up the
time of the Houfe in confidering all the objections
to which, in that particular raped, the motion wes
liable. He would content himfelf with proving, that
it was repugnant to a folemn fiipulation between Ire•
land and Great Britain, and in doing that, he would
furnilh, he had reafon to fuppofe, fufficient matter
for rejeding it. The Itipulation to which lie al-
luded, was that contained in the filth article of the
Aft of Union, which exprefsly mentions, that the
Proteltant Church is to be the efiablithed Church of
the State. It was laid, that the meafure would put
an end to all dilaffedion, and yet, in the very fame
breath, Gentlemen alleged that none exilled. He
would agree with them in the praifes which they had
bellowed upon the loyalty of the Catholics, and
admit, that the Rebellion in Ireland was not a Re-
bellion of Catholics, and that no greater number of
that perfuafion were to be found in it than might be
ex peeled in a country whole population was in a great
proportion Catholic. The conciliation of Ireland was
the oltenfible reafon for bringing forward the meafure;
but if that were really the quellton, Gentlemen would
do well to confider the effect of it, not only upon the
Catholics, hut upon the Proteflants alto. They
fhould confider what would be the alienating opera-
tion of the repeal of the Fifth Article of the Union,
upon the Proteltant population of Ireland. He feared
the effed of it would be, to deflroy that tranquillity
which the Honourable Mover of the Q2eltion feem-
ed fo anxious to maintain. Even that morality, and
confcietttious regard of their oaths, which was laid
to be fo firongly inculcated by the tenets of their
religion, fhotild convince Gentlemen, that, in a re-
gular orderly way they would omit no opnortutu-
nities of procuring for their religion all potlible ad
vantages. It was true, that the Petitioners abjured
any intention to fubvert the Proteflant religion, for
the purpofe of introducing their own ; but did they
profels for the whole Catholic body ? Did they pro-
fefs for the Clergy, as well as the Laity, or did they
only profit's for themfelves ? He had looked at the
petition, and he could not find the hand of a fingle
Clergyman of the Catholic perfuafion affixed to it ;
and the reafon affigned, as he underhand, was, that it
was a Petition for civil rights, in which they could
not participate. The Catholic Clergy had not ab-
jured the expedation of being rebored to all the dig-
nities which were polfeffed by them previous to the
Reformation; and if they had, he would not have
thought fo well of them as he did. Had they not
their Bilhopc, their Dean,, and all the gradations
which were to be found in the Ellabliffied Church ?
and knowing this, who could fay that they had relin.
quifhed all hopes of enjoying the emoluments apper.
taining to thofe dignities ? One of their tenets was, that,
they were bound to pay tithes only to their lawful paf-
tors. Nay, fome perfons had carried the principle much
further. A Mr. M'Renna, a very able man he would
acknowledge, had propoled, in a treatife of much
learning and ingenuity, that 3c or 40 acres fhould be
purchafed in every parilh in Ireland, and a bottle
fhould be built on it for the Catholic Clergyman.l—
Was not that a plain indication of the extent of their
hopes and prolpeds ? No man could entertain a
doubt that it was their inclination to propagate their
religion by every means in their power. - That was
a principle infepaiable horn the charader of every
religion. Were he in a Catholic country, profeffing
the religion lie did, he fhould feel an inclination to
advance that religion, and fo it. as natural to expel
the Catholics would do, whenever they had an op-
portunity. He was not fo fanguine as the Honour.
able Mover, in his expedations of the advantages
that were to refult from the meafure propufed. He
did not think it would produce conciliation in Ire-
land, or give that fatisfaClion to the Catholic body,
that was alleged. On the contrary, the drat of
it, in his opinion, would be, to bring the two
Sees nearer to each other, and conferprently to
increafe that fpirit of rivallhip and jealoufy which un-
fortunately fubfilted between them. He claimed the
indulgence of the Houfe for a few moments longer.
He law there was no great difpofition to Wien to
him ; and after the manner in which the attention
of the Houle had been gratified by the eloquent and
able Member who addreffed it for the firft time, he
was aware that any thing which fell from him mutt
appear flat and uninteresting. He thought that
no alternative could exift between keeping the elk.
bliffiment they had, and putting a Roman Catho-
lic eflabliffiment in its place. If Gentlemen would
make up their minds to that, they might conci-
liate Ireland, but not otherwife ; or perhaps they
might enter into a treaty with Bonaparte to allow
the Pope to grant them another Concorda. This ap-
peared to him to be the only true way of flaing the
queftion. The immunities which had Len already
granted to the Catholics, he thought, were fufficitnt;
and there was one of them, he meant the eleiftive
franchife, which, had he been a Member of that
Legiflature, he fhould have felt an incrnation to
oppofe at the time it was brought forward. What
privilege was there which they did not enjoy, with
the exception of fitting in Parliament, and the ca-
pacity 'of being appointed to a few great offices, in
as full and complete a manner as thofe who profeffed
the ellabliffied religion ? They had nothing to defire
on the fcore of toleration, that they and every other
Diffenter from the Eftabliffied Church did notenjoy as
fully as they could with. Anxicits as he was, to
conciliate fo importaqt a Member of the Empire, he
could not bring himalf to approve of the meafure
propofed by the Hon. Mover. if the demands of the

petitioners were conceded to their numbers and tl
majority, no poflibility would remain of refuting t••
comply with any future demands they may thins
proper to make. What their numbers and majority
(hall have once obtained, would only tend to
late them to frefh demat,ds, until nothing remained
for them to require, and they became not merely
prevailing party in the Rate, but exclufively the Ilan.
itfelf. For thole redone he would vote againA
motion :or referring the petition to a Committee.
Mr. ALEXANDER (poke with great animatior.
again!' receiving the Petition. He condemned tier
introduCtion of theories by the Hon. Opener of the
Debate, formed on principles inapplicable to fit:
Rate of Ireland. He complimented the ability fhewn
by the Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Grattan), bur
commented with confiderable feveritr on his cm:-
duB in the Irifh Parliament, where his talents had
been inflrumental in the ditireffes of the coup:: •:.
had there heard him difplay the great phyfica:
refulting from the number of the Catholics, :r,
molt dangerous manner. Such condo& tended ti :r.
flame the ignorant rebel peafantry of Iretinct, and
produced in that country fcenes of rebellion and
bloodfhed which were only ended by the help afford.
ed them from England. He had heard the ph) Cleat
force extol'ed and exaggerated, till be law the ph)•
fical force abfolutely in the field againft the Govern.
ment of the country ; nor did he find the lionous able
and eloquent Gentleman In ready as many others to
concur in the means of ruppreffing that rebellion.
The Hilton, of Ireland would (hew, that jacobititin
was merely an infirument to cover the pallor
for reparation, and this paffion arofe from Tome cattle.
perpetually aCting on the people's minds. He ct n
tended, that the King ought to be abfolved from the
neceffity of being a Protettant, if he were expofed
to be furrnunded by Roman Catholic Councillors and
Great Officers of Sat . The laws of the c' wary
ought to he math according to wifdom and esperi-
ence, for the Aeneral regulation, and not to fuit the
views of a few high minded men. Aftcr humiliating
the Church, and degrading the Country,not fifty con-
verts would be gained, and no benefit derived, except
two or three fine theoretical el:gart fpeeches.—(l kir
cry of cnnylion was very frequent during Mr. Alexander's
fpeee.)

Mr. W. SMITH obferved, that if the Houfe did
not teem defirous to wait longer, he would move an
adjournment. (A loud cry of Adjourn ! Adjourn !)
Mr. W. SMITH was proceeding—(Adjourn Ad-
journ!) when he moved for an adjournment till
this day.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
Paid, that he thought it was dcfirable that the debate
fhould have terminated on that night, but had no ob.
je4lion to adj• urn, as it teemed to be the wick of fo
many Gentlemen to deliver their opiniuns. (A cry of
adjourn repeated)
The question of adjournment was then put and
carried nem. (ca.—Adjourned at a quarter before
three this mulling till the afternoon.

ened by tt
But it feel
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ceafed. '
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all the ial