Star.
London, England, 1806-07-19 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. Cum, from the COI3IIIIIILOOCTS of Military loquir7,pre•
tented the Second Report of that Board.—Ordered to be printed.
A Gentleman from the Conunilßotiera for Weitnalniter-
Bridge, prefented their Annual Account—Ordered to tic on the
Table.

Mr. R. MITWOID,from the Commitlioners of Northern Light-
kooks, relented an Abfired a their Accouuu.
The Receiver General of the Cullom Bill, the Crown Lands
Leafe Bill, and the Oak Bark Billow:re feverally read a third time
and paffal.
Mr.SHERIDAN gave notice of a motion for Mooday,relative
to the Mates belonging to the Crow') lu Warnituler, for the
purr& of improving the Capital.
A Petfoa from the Tax Office prefented an Account of the
Salaries to the Commanners for the Redemption of the Land
Tax.

On the motion of the LORD ADVOCATE of SCOT,. AND,
Moulton and Company's Litate Bill was read a third time and
patted.
A Melrage was received from the Loordsnitathig that their L.
ips had agreed to the American Intercourfe, Militia Services,
Volunteer Officers, and a number of other public and private Bills.
A Mefrage from the Lords declared their afent to the Linen
Drawback, the Bell Rock Lighthouk, the London Port, and the
Maftrr in Chancery Mils, without any amendment, and alto their
Lori:Mips' &Ileac to the Philanthropic Society and Bankrupt Re-
gulation Bills, with feveral Amendments, to which they dared
the concurrence of this Houfe. _ _

Accounts of the falaries of several public °Seers were prefented
at the Bar.—Ordered to be printed, and to lie on the table.

PUBLIC HARBOURS ELL.

On the motion for the third reading of the Public
Harbour. Bill,
Sir WILLIAM ELFORD admitted, that it was
a Bill of great public concern, and one to the prin-
ciple of which no man could objeft ; but, when he
looked into the body of the Bill, it was impoffible
not to perceive that every perfon who bad property
on almoll every river ani fiream in the country,'
mak, by its operation, be fubjetted to great incon-
venience, in fo far as it went to prohibit the ereCtion
of any embankment, jetty, or any work whatever,
in any harbour, or on any river, rivulet, orlream
eonnetted with the fame, without giving notice to the
Admiralty. This, he was afraid, would be found a
great hardfhip, as there was hardly any running water
which was not, in Come fbape or other, conneeed
with the tea, and of courfe with tome one harbour or
other.

Sir C. POLE Bated, that all that was required
was notice of any intended erenion. If not Inter-
dined, the party giving the notice would then have
power to proceed without farther delay. This, he
fubmitted, was not too great a facrifice to be maded
for the fake of averting what might be detrimental
to the anchorage, and of courfe to the commerce of
the country.
The Bill was then read a third time. On the quef-
lion that the Bill do pals, Come farther converfation
took place, and
Mr. FOSTER moved that the Bill be confined to
Great Britain.

This, however, was pal Ted from, and words were
Introduced limiting the reftriflion to all public har-
bours, and .1, every river communicating therewith,
fo far as the tide floss up the fame."
The Bill was then paired, and ordered to be ear-
tied to the Lords.

AAAAA
The SECRETARY at WAR moved that there
be laid before the Houle a Statement of all Sums
received by the late Barrack Matter General for the
Rent of Canteens and Sale of Dung.
Mr. ROBSON remarked that it had fallen to his
lot more than once to move for Papers, which, after
being refufed to be granted one day, were on the
following, or fume fubfequent day, moved for by
Miniflers. This he thought ftrange, and willed to
know the reafon of it. He alfo objefted to the hurry
with which the Papers were fent off to be printed,
by which he was prevented from having an opportu.
nity of confidering them, and of preparing for a
Motion which be meant to make on the fubjelt on
Monday. It was remarkable that Inch papers as that
to which he referred (the Second Report of the Mili-
tary Ci.mmiffioners) were never prefented ti!l within
a few days of the ritmg of a Seftin, by which means
Members bad no opplituility of knowing what they
contained till the following Salon.

After Come further obfervations the motion was
agrerd to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
exprelled a wilk to know what was to be the tenor
of the Motion which the Honourable Member had
hinted at, as likely to be made by him on Monday ?
Mr. ROBSON said hit Motion would be for more
Papers relative to the peculations in the Barrack De•
partment. •He did nor, however, pledge Itimfelf to
bring it forward on Monday, if he could not have
an oppot tunity of perufing t!!c papers already before
the Huth.

'lhe SECRETARY at WAR prefented the Pa.
pens which had been ordered, on his motion, to be
produced:
___ _

Mr. PAULL repeated the affertions made by him
on a former night, that Captain Atkins, who had
been a meritorious (taker, was difmiffed front his
employment in the Barrack Department without no-
tice, and uithAut being heard, merely becaufe be
bad espied frauds which were praftiflng on the
The SECRETARY at WAR denied this Rate-
ment• and (Aid that there were papers on the table
which would ate w that Mr. Atkins had been heard in
defence.
I%lr. ROBSON ohfervcd that there was one affida-
vit to that etrefl, and thiee to the e. ntras y.
After Tome hither sonverfation, principally on
the point of Mr. liohlon having mipetßiun of the
papers before silty were printed,
The SPEAKER, on learning that the paper he
principally wanted was the Report of the Milira.
C-romiffieners, informed him that it had already
been ordered to be printed.
Sir JOHN SINCLAIR brought up the Second Report of the
Committee GO BMW Wheeled Wagginx.—Ordcred to be printed.

ANNUAL COASTS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER mom' that
humble .Addreffes be pre rated to his WiaJudy, praying that he
would be grzeioufly pleated to order the following fonts to be paid
to the perfoos named in the different refolutlons, and that the
Hoak would make good the fame.
The fum of noel. to H. Alesandcr, Efq for his Cervices as
Chairman of the Committee of Ways and Means.
To Jeremiah Dyfoo, Efq one of the Clerks of the Houle, fueh
a faro. as with his fees, thould make up the rum of socr 1.
To J. H. Ley, Efq another of the Clerks of the Haute, the
clear furn of toool.,
To J. Clementfon, Efq. filch a lam u together with the fees of
hie once, thould amoont to soot
That there be printed tyso Copies of the journals of the
Homfo, and an Index thereto, undo the cue at the (aid j. H. Ley,
Efq.
That 3 set. be advanced to o.l.Vhitbam, Efq. fur making an
Index to the Voter of the Hoare. . .

And that fuch compenfation as way be proper be granted to the
Clerks to Public Committees during the prefetat SelEon.
Addreffes on each of 'bele were ordered accordingly, to be pre-
rented by filch Members of the Houfe u were of his Majelty's
Mott Honourable Privy Council.

INNIA.

Mr. P. MOORE moved fordicharging part of an Order of
15th June lift, for produetion of certain papers relative to India,
and that co nein other papers be ordereed to be produced.—Om
dered. There were Immediately prefented.

►UBLIC DEBT.

Mr. JOHNSTONE moved the Order of the Day
for refuming the debate upon the fubjeft of the Pub-
lic Debt, which order being read,
Mr. JOHNSTONE obferved, that the Refolutinna
which he had to move upon this fubje& differed fo
little from the (late of the Public Debt, as laid down
by the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer, and
agreed fo clofely with his Ilatements in all the general
ref-nits, that it was hardly worth troubling the Houfe,
by going into .a minute detail upon the fubjelt.—
There were, however, one or two points which called
for obfervation. On the commencement of the pre-
fent war, a. hope had been pretty ftrongly dated on
the other fide of the Houfe, by an Hon. Gentleman,
that the war might be carried on without any new
increafe of the Public Debt ; and yet it now appear.
ed, that notwithftanding the ample increafe of re-
venue which had been voted as war taxes, and the
new heavy burdens impofed upon the country, the
Public Debt had been increafed feventy millions with-
in the lad four years, although the produa of the
war taxes within that time had exceeded their efti-
mates by two millions. He did not will tb expatiate
farther upon this fubjeft now, in the abfence of the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Vanfittart) who had held out
to the Houle and to the country this flattering hope,
which he (Mr. Johnftiine) forefaw at the time was
not likely to be verified. Another fubjeft for obfer-
cation was, that, notwithdanding the productive fuc-
cefs of the war taxes, and the very advantageous loans
that had been made fince the commencement of the
prefent war, yet competing the four years of the pre-
fent war with the four Taft years of the preceding, it
would appear, that the loans made in both were very
nearly equal; for in the former the fum borrowed in
four years was 69 millions, and in the latter 67 mil-
lions, while the quantity of flock at market remained
, ftiil pretty much the farce. Mr. Johnftone then pro-
ceeded to move his Refolutions ; the fird of which
that the Public Debt of the nation, on the tft
of March, 1803, was 567,008,9171.
The CHANCELLOR .of the EXCHEQUER
felt it unneceffary to fay any thing on the nibs& of
the general refolutions. of the Hon. Gentleman, as
they fo nearly accorded with the flatement he had
hisnfelf made; and with refpeft to the accumulation
of the public debt, in confequence of the exceeding.'
of the war ezpences beyond what was originally con-
jeftured, he bad only to ay, that it mud have been
impolfible to date more than mere conjefture as to
what might be the probable expences of a war, in the
outlet of which the poffible chances and events, and
confequently the true expeace of which it mutt be
ill-
podible for human forefight to calculate upon any
Peale of accuracy added to this, however accurate
fuch calculations might be, they muff be founded
upon the rate of things as they flood at the time ; but
every one mull know, that the extraordinary and un-
expefted rife upon every necefary of life, and almoft
every article of fupply fince that time, and the
total change of chat after the war had affumed, efpc•
eially in the late unfortunate campaign upon the Con-
tinent, cxpences had accrued to an extent which it
was equally impollittle, in the outlet, for human wif•
dam to forefee or to avoid.
Dr. LAWRENCE made a few obfervations to the
fame effeft, and Paid the objeftions of the Hon. Gen-
tleman would be belt anlwered by the reply quoted
in a claffic author upon a fimilar occafion,“ that war
was a devouring animal, and would be reftrained by
no prefcribed regimen."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
then moved to pollpone till Monday, the further con-
fideration of the remaining relolutions.

INDI♦
Oa the motion of Lord MORPETH, the Com-
mittee on the Indian Budget was refumed.
Mr. TYRWHITT JONES thought that in the
prefent convulfcd (late of the Company's aff,sirs, the
Hoofs ought to be informed bow the debt claimed by
Government again(' the Company, and by the Com-
pany again(' Government, actually Rood! When he
was proceeding on this point,
Dr. LAWRENCE called him to order, that not
being the queflion before the Houle, which applied
folely to the left year's expenditure.
Mr. JONES maintained he was in order, but pro
felled his willingnefs to yield to the Ler ne I Doc.
tor, who was hirofelf always fa full of brevity.
Mr. PAULL agreed that the ltatement made by
the Noble Lord was the only fair one on the fubjeet
for the lan twenty-two years. But even in it there
were fome millakes. As, for inflance, there was a
fum of 7,710,0001. which became due in the year
1807, intlead of the year tBI 0, as the Noble Lord's
Qatement made it. Of cootie, the deficiency for the
two laR years amounted to about 6,000,0001.
Mr. JONL•S allied if he had a right to put a
quettion ?
Mr. HOBHOUSE Paid, he might put ary quef-
tion, but it would reit with the perfon to whom it
was put to anfwer it or not, as he inclined.

Mr. TY RW HITT. JONES hoped that he would
not be thought pertinacious, bat ha hoped be would
be allowed to make a few obfervatioris, at he notld
pledged in tome degree to the Notice on this fubjetg.
He had in atot tinted that the debt of the Company
was twtnty millions. This had now clearly evened
out to be the fan. He had then met with a great
deal of opprobrium, and WaS Aked to have patience.
He had had patience, and the rcfult was, that the

Company, as had been Rated by an Honouratl...
Alderman (Prinfep) was on the eve of bankruptcy,
and that their debt was nearer forty millions than
thirty. He was therefore fully juftified in what he
had laid, and the perfons at the India Board, whe-
ther they were called Comptrollers, or any thing elle,
would loon, it appeared, be only the affignees of
bankrupts.
Mr. JOHNSTONE Paid that there was no danger
of a bankruptcy. He would not enter upon the
particulars of the accompts, however, as it was pain-
ful to him to look at the fituation of the Company.—
But that fituation was fill not fo gloomy as it had
been re relented by the Honourable Gentleman.—
As to the loans, he hoped the perfons who held then,
would renew their engagements. Bat he deprecated.
the transferring them to this country, and warned
the Directors not to Ale fuch a thing of Parliament,
far the Minifter of the day would be ftrongly tempt.
ed to grafp at a flume of the patronage, which would
be dangerous to the liberties of this country.
begged the Houfe to confider what would he t!..:
confequence of a patronage over three millions fit
ling, in addition to what was already porefed Ly
the Government. Any inconvenience of trade was
better than that the Minifter ffiould acquire fuck an
extraordinary power. He meant this as no particu-
lar refie&ion, but mentioned it as applying to any
Minifter. As to the cafe of Sir George Barlow, his
opinion was unaltered. Even though what the Ho.
nourable Gentleman (Mr. Paull) bad laid Ihould be
correß, Rill his obfervations were proper. Minders
had gratuitoufly appointed him on the zfith of Feb.
ruary, and removed him fourteen days after. Now,
why was he appointed at all, if it was in contempla-
tion to remove him fo Coon ? All the powers of Go-
vernor General would have remained with him by
devolution till the appointment of a fuecefor, except
the power of exercifing the higheß functions of the
office without the cocfent of the Council—a power
In extraordinary, that it had never been exercifed.—.
The charge therefore remained in full force.
Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY obferved, that
the loans which the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Paull) Rated would become due in 5807, would, in
fad, not be doe till iflog•to. In the Mahrstta war,
the expenfes had been great, but the Cervices bad
alto been great, and in no inftance there was fo much
ferviee at left expenfe. The Sinking Fund in India
had had great efficacy in keeping down the difcount
on the Government Securities, and in enabling the
Company to obtain loans at a low interen, and in
fad they had of late obtained them at 8 per cent.
Mr. PAULL obferved, that they had not obtain.
ed them at lets than fourteen per cent. and accounted
for the Honourable General's minake, by Rating that
more than two thirds of the loans were made at
Lucknow and &flares, and the fecurity given en the
Calcutta rupees, which were of a higher value. He
adverted to the Charter of the Company, and dis-
tended that they were indebted to Government in
the turn of five or fix millions, and that Govern.
ment had a right to feixe upon their buildings, plate,
Etc. ice. for the debt. It was not to be fuppofid that
they were to have their Charter for nothing.
Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY explained.
Mr. Alderman PRINSEP agreed with the Ho.
nourable General that the Sinking Fund lowered the
rate of intereft in India, but could go with him no
further.
Mr. GRANT obrerved, tharas to the claim of the
500,0001. a year from the Company, it was only to
be paid out of the furplus revenue of the Company at
home, and the late.Mioifter, who was fufficiently de•
firous of finding out any refoince that could ran the
fupplies' was convinced that, under the circum ances
of the cafe, the claim could not be fubtlantiated. He
admitted that the credit of the Company had been
improved in India, and that loans were made at A
lower rate of intact). But the reafon was, that bet•
ter feourity was given. Infleasi of bonds in India •
payable at a very late period, Marquis Wellefley had
given feeurity in England. He thought this, how.
ever, a very improper made of proceeding, as it fob-
jelled the Company to sudden and large datnendsand
betides, it was too great a power to enroll to any
Governor, who might ufe it as a refoorce, when he
had large views, to the detriment of the Company.
The Government at home ought, indeed, to reftrift
the Governor General on this point. As to laying
that the Directors had approved,of this becanfe they
were talent, he would not enter upon this. The fail
was, that they had long endured many things of
which they did nut approve. But he certainly was
of opinion that the giving this fort of ferurity ought
not to be formed into a fyllem. With regard to the
ekehange between Lucknow and Calcutta he was in.
dined to agree with the Honourable Gentleman over
the way (Mr.Paull). The exchange between Madras,
the feveral Prefidencies, and Calcutta was very ex-
penfive ; and what with that and the boodles, he
would venture to fay, that thofe loans were the molt
expenfive ever made. With regard to the Sinking
Fund, it was not of the nature of the Sinking Fund
in England, for ennead of being compofed of the pro.
duce of taxes railed for the purpofe of fupplying it ;
it was taken from the malt of the money which
would have gone in fame other fbape to the difcharge
or diminution of the deb:, and therefore he did not
think it of much ufe.

Mr. JONES, in explanation, faid, that he had not
Rated that they were forty millionsobut that he be•
lieved they were nearer forty than thirty.
Mr. GRANT denied that the debt was fo great as
had been Rated by the Honourable Gentleman.
Mr. MARTIN commented on the conftration of
the Atl by which the Company held their Charter,
and laid that it clearly appeared from it, that when
the Company were in Itraitened circurnftances the
payment was only furpended, and they now were
debtorsto the public for fix millions. The only ex-
cult mutt be their inability to pay, and he hardly
thought that chi, excufe would be retorted to, as it
would amount to a conteifion that they had been in.
folven• ever lince the year 5793.
Mr. HUDDLES I'JNE laid, that feveral of the
Directors had not attended, becaufe the various In-
dia accounts, and the whole of the Budget, had been
laid before the Houle with the greatell accnracy.—•
Ile then entered into a view of the fpeech of an Hon.
Alderman (Ptintep) out a fi.rite• night. He con-
tended, that the genet al benefits wiling from the
commerce of the Eatt India Company were very
great. This was pattictilaely the cafe with regard
to woollens, which they exported with lofs to them•
(elves, Oat which employed +noon people in this

I

country, who would otherwife be deprived of em-
ployment. The Exchequer derived three millions of
revenue fr ,m it. and their. commerce employed
semao fail Ts. The utility of this commerce did not
merely depend on the profit and loft of the Company.
He ty n, means agreed with the Noble Lord (Car-
tlereagh) in the anister which he had given to the
Ron Alderman. He denied that the deranged Rate
of the Company's filances was owing to the wars in
India, for out of the thirteen years of war mentioned
by the Noble Lord, fix had been years of peace in
India. and during part of that time, the debt, in-
Read of increafing, had Initially diminifhed. The
deranged Rate of the finances he attributed to the
late dreadful wars, and a neglea of due economy,
and the frnitful fource of thele was the fyftem put.
fued by the late Governor General, not intentionally,
but from an error is judgment--a fyftem of fubfidiary
alliances that is bringing the native Princes under
fubjeltion to our Indian Government. and making
the Company's revenues appear greater than they
really were, and increafing the expenditure upon the
'trength of that fallacious appearance. But the de-
lufion was n.,w over, and if the ()diem of the Mar-
:lois Cornwallis was again ruffed upon—if we re•
at aced our' Reps, he had nu doubt the finances of
the Company might be brought to a Rate of prof-
'wiry. He concluded with obferving, that the coun-
try in general derived immerfe benefits from the
commerce of the Company, which could never ap-
pest on the table of the Houle, in a view of the
finances of the Company.
Alderman PRINSEP, in reply. defended the Rate-
ments whit!, he had formerly given of the affairs of
the Company ; and obferved, that the whole extent
- 'of the Company's imperial commerce did not amount
to mere than soo,ood. a year. He contended that
The :amerce and manufaltnres of the country
4' would he much mote encouraged by the estenfion of
the trade to private individual,. (ince this country
was no, able to embrace its natural Rare in the cam-
n:erce of the EaR, from the exelufive Charter of the
Eall India Company. In India alto, there were a
fueicient number of Anita's'', in every kind of em-
ployment, fo that, were the trade laid open, them
would be nn danger of (itch an emigration from this
country, as rnipht ultimately fever the conneCtion
with India. He contended, that the capital of the
Company had been always contemptible, and Made.
"rate to the commerce of the EaR. As to the ex.
peitation of retrieving their affairs, this had been held
out by every Prefident of the Board of Cwntrotd, and
it might be Paid of it, " Hope travels on, nor quits
us till we die."

Mr. HUDDLESTONE laid, the Hon. Alderman
was altogether miftaken in his ftatement—the exports
from the year 5797 to 1804, amounted to tz,368,0001.
which yielded an average of 1,516,0001. per annum,
exclufive of warlike Ooree.
Mr. Alderman ?RINSEP, in'explanation, Paid he
did not include the China trade, which ht confidered
to be diftinti from the India trade.
Lori CASTLEREAGH afcribed the debts of the
Company to the wars in Europe and India, into the
policy of which that was not the proper time to enter.
European war alone had that tea, by increafing
the expence of freight, and Rill more when Indian
war was added. The only limit to their commerce
+ins, that of the limit of the Indian market, and their•
general trade to India and China amounted to two
millions a year, while they extended the trade in Brir.
Wit woollens, even to their own injury. As to the
credit of the Company, that appeared from the Bate
of their funds, as high as that of the country, and he
law no reafons for thole gloomy fpeculations in which
Come Gentlemen indulged. It feemed therefore on '
juflifiable to attempt to injure their credit, by- offer-
lions that they were in a nue of infotvency. He de
fended his former obfervations with regard to a loan
from this country, though he did cot think that their
noancial lunation immediately required it, or that
they literal-elves had expreffed any with for it. On
the whole, he did not entertain more gloomy profpedt s
with regard to the Company than he did with refpetl
to the country in general. He never could look on '
their debt as entirely commercial, but as contraded
for the fupport of our empire in India ; and if by any
operation it could be transferred to this country from
India, and the intereft reduced from 9 to 5 per cent.
it might .be advantageous to the Company, and
would not ezpofe the country to any pecuniary rilk.
Stich a loan could be much better negociated under
the guarantee of the public than by the Company it.
(elf. Fie concluded with recommending to his Ma-
jefty's Minikes to take the affairs of the Company
into their particular attention during the reeds, and
bring forward the India Budget at as early a period
as poftible of the next &Mon.
Dr. LAWRENCE °Vetoed, that it had been laid.'
by a predeceffor of the Noble Lord at the Board of
Controul, that the country were much more likely to
derive pecuniary aftillance from the Company, than
the Company from it ; and yet now it was propofed
to aid them by guaranteeing their loans.
Mr. TYRW HIT JONES contended, that had the
affairs of the Company been properly managed, they
might have contributed to the affittance of this coun-
try, as had been the expedation which Lod Melville
exprefred. He thought we were the pooter for the
ferrite), y ac 1. td acquired in India. He called on the
Company to name,the day, month, or year, when they
would pay their debts—if four years hence? He was
br,rever convinced thiy could not go on ; they mull
die as a Company—die theatrically, he believed they
wontd—li Die all—die nobly—die like Demi-Direc-
Mr. JOHNSON thought the profperity of India
war calculate., on ellimates never to be reniihed, anti
he thought it too much for human patience to beim
the argtini-nts urged in their fupport.
• Mr. GRANT entered, a fecond time, at confide.
_ _

rattle leogtb, on die Maury of the Affairs of India,
and th, ri,tht time part of this dircuflion had been
conduftett melt exceptionably. The pillory given
by the Honourable Alderman, whiclr he Rated to
be from the commencement of the Company, was
taken p when a new Company was created : where.
as another Company had walled for a century. He
thought the capital employed in the trade of the EAR
India Company, which was twelve millions, ruin
eient for their purport, and their own capital only
had been employed to bring-them to the high condi-
tion its which they are ; and he could not help ob
(erring, that before Gentlemen, who owed their pre-
f.:tit condition to the Company, endeavoured to Duke
she Ohm, they Aould rake care to devils a better.

Lord CASTLEREAGH abd bl. LAWRENCE
mutually explained. •
Afier a long difctilton, in which Mr. W. KEENE,
Lord MORPETH, and Alderman PRINSEP took
a part, the Refolutiuns were agreed to ; and the
Halite being returned, the Report was ordered to be
received on Monday.
The Houfe then adjourned at one o'clock, till
Monday.