Star.
London, England, 1805-04-11 00:00:00

THURSDAY, APRIL ti, 18os.

removed from every public fituation he holds, and
for ever be excluded from the Councils, and be ba-
nned from the prefence of his Sovereign. Yet not
only the head of this combination, but the inferiors
in office require tome attention. Has Mr. Trotter
been difmiffed ? (Mr. Canning aiTwered its the affir-
mative.) Has Mr. Wilfon been difcarded ?—(The
reply was in the negative). If either of there public
officers have been retained, the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Canning) has not done what he
ought, from deference and refped to this Houfe, to
have inftantly performed. If Mr. Wilton be not di-
,etted to retire already, is it the intention to difmifs
him ? It mull evidently appear upon the Tenth Re-
port, he ought no longer to be retained. If both
were driven from their fitnations, more is yet to be
done ; and I take this opportunity Of giting notice,
that it is my defign to move, that the Attorney Ge-
neral be dire&ed to proceed againft Lord Melville
and Mr. Trotter, in order that the public may re-
ceive the profits derived from their illegal penalt'as,
which ought to be refunded to the nation. The
Learned Gentleman will, no doubt, proceed in the
way be Scold deem molt effectual for the rellitution
of the property of the (late. There are other pro-
ceedings neceffarily refulting from the Tenth Report.
If the queftion thould be carried, we are far from
having finifhed the duties of the day. We are yet
only at the dawn, but it is an aufpicious dawn ; and
when the fun fets, I hope it will fet in glory. With
regard to that part of the fubjea on which the Houfe
has before decided, nothing could be more obvious
than the line of conduit it ought to have taken, and
nothing more correit than that which it has adopted ;
bilt there are other parts in which fome prepara-
tion is neceffary. It At firft occurred to me to be
right, to make a motion exprefsly on the fubjed of
the transfer of the public money, in the cuftody of the
Treafurer of the Navy, to other officers; yet, as I
found it to be the opinion of fome Gentlemen, that
fuel) a transfer might admit of apology, if not of
vindication, I have nct perfe7ered in this defign ;
it will, however, be propofed, that a Seled Commit-
tee be appointed to enquire into the tranfaftion, not-
withftanding the explanation given by the Right
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) as to the portion of the
amount fo transferred. No fubjet of greater mo-
ment can be fubmitted to the Houfe. Such conduit,
may, in fome infiances, be excufable, in others me-
ritorious ;—but if it fhould pals unnoticed, what an
example, what a precedent would appear to fine-
don the mdconduit of future Officers of the Crown?
It is extremely remarkable, that this appropriation
of the funds devoted to the Navy, to other fer-
vicet, was never pradifed before, and never after,
the Treafurerfhip of Lord Melville. It was ins-
puede, tinder fuch cireumftances, not to enter
tains:fallacious. But how mach was fufpicion
incr . when we were told that all the records
of the tranfations were defiroyed ? Is not this
fufficient even to convert doubt into certainty,
and will not this jufiify the moil unfavourable eon-
ftrudion 1 If thefe records were of a fecret nature,
they ought at leaft to be depofited in a place of fe-
curity, to be produced and infpeOed at a future
period, when concealment was no longer neceffary ;
the defiration of ruch materials of inforrhation
mull be underftood as an ad of Pelf condemnation.
In the prefent peculiar circumftances, not only the
particulars of the Report, but matters unconnected
with that Report, ought to be referred to the Com-
mittee. When I laft hadthe honour of addreffing you,
Sir, it was my intention to have Paid a few words on
the conduit of the Bank, but it then efeaped my re-
colledion. It appeared the vouchers of the Bank it-
felf were deficient. Subfequently an explanation was
attempted, and the aegled was imputed to the per-
fon who produced a counter fiatement. Wherever
the culpability lies, let it be underftood to whom the
imputation fhould be direded ; it does fecm that the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) is not
without fault and if fufpicion fall upon him, let him
he heard in his own vindication. I did explicitly
charge him with being informed of the irregular
mode in which the banking account of the Tree-
furer of the Navy was concluded, and he has never
yet explained why he tacitly fuffered this violation of
the Mt of Parliament. The confideration of this
part of the cafe malt alto be referred to a Commit.
tee. The circumfiance refpeding Mr. Jellicoe, will
alto devolve under the fame elafs of enquiry. It is
calculated to make a deep impreffion upon the mind.
It is not only Lord Melville who is implicated, but
the Commiflioners of the Treafury appear to be par-
takers of this crime. They granted, as a quietus to
the Treafurer of the Navy, 24,0001. to fupply the de-
falcation which the Right Hon Gentleman in the laft
debate miftook between an item of 134 millions, and
another of tB6 millions. Such was the Oka of of
ficial prodigality, that fifty-two millions were of
little account. Here the fum in queftion is merely
24,0301. but if it is only 24,000 pence, the grounds
of inveftigation are the fame, and the Lords of
I the Treafury have abandoned, in this tranfadion,
the ptintiples to which they ought to have rigidly
adhered. The molt important and ferious enqui-
ry, molt important and ferious, both as it refpeds
Lord Melville and the public, is into the connec-
tion and intereft that Nobleman may or may not
have had, with the peculation of Mr. Trotter. If,
under the difficulties attending filch a fubjea, it be
poffible to afcertain the truth, the Committee of
the Houfe will not be deficient, either in vigilante
or difeernment, CO enable themfelves to expofe the
faits of the cafe. The long aiminiftration of my
Lord Melville would, at haft, afford abendant
materials, and (erne of the molt curious fyftems of
arithmetical eomputatipn would be ditclofed. I
think Swift has fothewhete laid, that in the ealcula-
lation of the Cuftoms, a and a do not Make 4 ; it will
be difeorered that my Lord Melville, adopting the
fame dothine of quantity, difallowed that 4 and 4
were coincident, as I (hall prefently explain.—
Lord Melville uttered continual complaints that he
was oppreffed with the weight of his official duties,
yet it liasucceffary, for thee rraogemeut of Adroi•

niftratian, that he %hould remain Prefident of the
Board of Controul, Secretary of State, and that he
fhould have the principal condo& of the war. But
was it equally fo, that he thould occupy the fituation
ofTreafurer of the Navy ? At the firft view we fhould
anfwer in the negative, and an abundant fuppl}o of
candidates may be found for an office where all the
emolument is to be received, and no functions arc to
be dikharged. But reafons may be affigried why
fuch candidates fhould be ditappointed ; and here I
will hint at a fatisfaftory (Motion of the arithmetical
1 paradot to which I have adverted, Lord Melville
reflges a Itipend of aoool. as Secretary. of State, and
commutes for it an equal income as Treafurer of the
Navy. A plain man would fuppofe be would be
neither richer nor poorer by this change—but he
would be, I fear, molt egregioufly miftaken. Four
and four, with Statefmen, are not equal ; nor is the
received axiom with Mathematicians corral, that
1 things equal to the fame thing are equal to one ano-'
ther. Thus in this cafe, the aoool. as Treafurer of
the Navy, was fomewhat fatter ; it was of the femi-
nine gender, it was productive; and by the taws of na-
ture, as ?oliticians underhand them, capable of bear-
ing a golden progeny. I confefs I cannot fupprefs my
funoictons when thefe truths, which have been rang-
nixed for centuries, are thus controverted. This,
however; remains to be enquired—but we are no lon-
ger to be taught on the fait of his criminality ; out of
his own mouth, tinder his own hand he has acknow-
ledged hinsfelf guilty of the offence with which he is
charged, and the Houfe of Commons has voted in
confequence of that confeffion. It is then expedient
for the fafety of the kingdom, that fuch pitons as
Lord Melville fhould not intermeddle with matters
of State—it is no lets neeetrary, as an example to fu-
ture generations ; and I truft this Houfe will juftify
its former refolution, and vindicate its own honour
by addreffing his Majefty to remove this Nobleman
from all offices whatever. It will be recollated the
office of Fir!' Lord of the Admiralty is not the only
Ration he holds in the empire ; the refignation, there-
fore, thus far, does not rid the King's Councils of the
, man who is undeferving the confidence of his Sove-
reign; this infulated aft has not fatislied the plaice of
the country, it is only one link of the chain which mutt
be broken to pieces, or it will be employed to mana-
cle the Elate. If the punifhment of Lord Melville had
no concern with the interefts and with the feturity of
1 the public, I fhould exclaim, gl Let him go free."
By reflation on his paft conduct, by the view of
1 his prefent difgrace, by the profpelt of his future
fortunes, and, above all, by the painful confciouf
nets that he has deferved the Coffering' he endures,
he has undergone, and has yet to bear more thanwe
can Mire any man to Main. But the aim of all
puniffiment is not the mifchief accruing to the in-
dividual, but the benefit of fociety—and to promote
this great end, it was a great duty to the country
not to admit this diftinguiffied criminal to efcape
without the penalties the law, and the authority of
Parliament, have attached to his crimes. Lord
Melville has engaged the confidence of the crown, 1
and has been the tervant of the people. The King
has multipled favours on his head, and within a year
of the time in which I am now fpeaking, isool. per
annum has been granted to him, in addition to his
poll of Firft Lord of the Admiralty. This was not
matter of mere conjecture, the account was upon the
table, and the tranfation was public before the world.
It was, indeed, ffippoted, that no new honours and
emoluments awaited the ambition of Lord Melville ;
it was imagined he had retired for the remainder of
his days, into his native country. It was, perhaps,
owing to the peculiar difficulties and neceffities of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) that he was again,
untortucattly, invited to tread the public ftage ; he
was called to fill the fecond official dignity in the
nate, and the compliment of I poi. per annum Was
granted, in addition to the emoluments of that emi-
nent nation. A queftion may wife, if this be a grant
for life, if this patent gift, fo long as he (hall hold
the Privy Seal of Scotland, be indeed that fort of
perpetuity ? Should it be revocable, it ought to be
cancelled ; if irrevocable, the more is it to be lament-
ed that the property of the nation fhould devolve into
unworthy hands. Who were the advifers of this
grant, and alfo of others, to different branches of his
family, will be another proper funjat of future invef-
Ligation. I here more immediately allude to the gift
to Lady Melville, which, if I am not mifinformed,
was conceded in a clandeltine manner. It teems to
me highly probable, that the perfons who figned
their names to that grant were not duly apprized of
the contents of the inftrument they then paffively
fanetioned with their authority. Sir, I have already.
expreffeJ my wilt), to conduit myfelf with particular
refpelt to the Houfe, under the encouragement I
have Co recently obtained during my exertions in the
public cattle, and in the confidence I feel that it will
perfevere in the difplay of the fame fpirit by which it
has been fo honourably dillinguiffied ; I (ball not,
therefore, prefs the fubjeft farther than the Houle
will approve, but (hall now, after this general expla-
nation, content mylilf with moving, ' that an Ad-
dicts be prefented to his Majelly, to remove Lord
Vifcount Melville from all the offices he holds in the
State, and from the Royal councils and pretence, for
ever."

Mr. CANNING.—" I have no objeCtion, Sir, to
the Hon. Gentleman and the Honk purfuing the ob-
jells of our refolutions to the great ends of puniihment
and example, in all cafes where, in doing fo, we ad
vance the great ends of juflice ; bot in the inflance
of the cafe before us, I am very far, indeed, from
thinking that we Ihould be promoting the ends of
jullice, by agreeing to the motion with which the
Hon. Gentleman has concluded his fpeech. The
Hon. Gentleman difclaims all other intention but
that of punilhment and example, and in a way con-
tillent with decorum, jullice, and impartiality; but
the Houfe will agree with me, that from the mixture
and topics introduced into his fpeech, from the
manner and tone with which that fpeech was deli.
vered, there was not only fomething extremely bit-
ter is it, but alio foundling both ',joint and *tad

[ PRICE SIX-PENCE.

dielive. Gond GOD Sir, what meafure of jultice is
that, when the firß thing the Houfe is told in the pt .
fecution of there pretended ends ofjullice, that the re.
fignation of office is no atonement to Parliament,
when the firft thing we hear isan accufietion brought
forward againfl Lord Melville,for having re/igned Ac
if it were laid that refignation was mere fobterfoi• ,
an evafion and Million to deceive the Houle and e
country, and to mitigate the popular feeling with re.
gard to Lord Melville. What would the Hon. Ger .
tleman have laid, it Lord Melville had not refigned ?
Would not the Hon. Gentleman, who now reprefents
the refignation of the Noble Lord as an Million, have
called on the Houle to denounce the hardy refiflance
of his Lordfhip, and have triumphantly told us,
that there was Lord Melville unmoved, laughing to
fcorn the votes and refolutions of the Commons of
the Britilh empire ? The Hon. Gentleman not only
cenfures the refignation of the Noble Lord, but even
treats it as an aggravation of the offence he imputes to
him. Inftead of this, if his Lordfhip had indeed difre-
garded the vote of this Houfe, if he had not anticipat-
ed public opinion, the Hon. Member would have ex-
claimed to-night, that weought to feel ourfelvesinfult-
ed, ought to feel indignation, infult, and aggravation.
I mean to fay. Sir, that whatever count: we may
think fit to take, Lord Melville has not. by refign-
, ing, met the vote of this Houfe with either aggrava-
tion of his cafe, or Murton as to the mode of his re-
fignation. A more relpedful procedure it was not
' poffible for Lord Melville to have followed towards
this Houfe and the country, than that which he
adopted ; for if he were even in the lalt degree Rug-
ry, loch a Rep as he took is the utmoft we could have
erpeeted him to take, in all the circumflances. And
with the very diminihted guilt of the Noble Lord, I
mutt think he has made a fignal facrifice. The Ho.'
nourable Gentleman has appealed perfonally to me,
if I have difmiffed certain individuals in my depart-
ment, who are mentioned in the Report, and whom
he hit pointedly alluded to in his fpeech. He quef-
tions me if I have done my duty ? It is a hard quaf.
tion. Many obßacles prefent themfelves to the per.
formance of our duties—the world will not always
fuffer us to do our duty. But, Sir, I have told the
Honourable Gentleman, that with refped to one of
the perfons, Mr. Trotter, I have removed him from
his inflation ; although, as to Mr. Wilfon, I have
thought it right to continue him. As to Mr. Trot-
-ter, I Rated the other night the grounds on which I
did not remove him from his fituation ; and the more
I confider my opinion which I delivered-then, the
more I am fatisfied that I did only jultke in not dif.
miffing Mr. Trotter : for what an effetL would it
not have had, If he who, belt acquainted with the
tranfadions and the fituation of the office, and what
had been done in deviation from the Aft of the Le.
giflature, had tun before this Houfe in judgment ? If
I had found him guilty, while the publiq opinion ran
fo high, and whild this Houfe was undecided, I
fhould have thought myfelf wanting in that due re-
gard to juflice which it is incumbent on every man
to feel and to cheritu. Certainly, Sir, I should not
have done right in deciding fo rafhly ; but I do flat-
ter myfelf that I have done right in not fa deciding.
With refpeet to Mr. Wilton, I than notice his cafe
prefently. But, Sir, I was, in a molt peculiar manner,
attacked the other evening, on the fubjed of Mr.
Trotter. An Hon. Gentleman, who ought to have
known better, accufed me of mifconduet in not dif-
miffing Mr. Trotter the inflant the Tenth Report was
publifhed to the world. The language of that Hon.
Gentleman, on the occafion, was, indeed, remarka-
ble ; I might add, that it was unwarrantable. In
truth, it was at once arbitrary doctrine, and defpoti-
cal and tyrannical, as to the judgment with which it
was wilhed to follow up that doctrine. If the Hon.
Gentleman had been an Englifh Lawyer (tbe Mem-
ber alluded to was Mr. George Ponfonby), he would
not have made ale of fuch a doctrine, nor defiled an
Englifh Houle of Commons to approve fuch defpoti•
cal notions.—(A cry of Heart Hear I)—As to Mr.
Wilfon, I have, it is true, continued him in office, but
I have done it from a fenfe of duty. I have never
under flood that the Commiflioners reported any thing
criminal againft Mr. Wilfon ; he never has been men-
tioned with difapprobation by them. And, Sir, I am
, perfedly confident, and confeientiontly convinced,
that the public has not an honeßer fervant than Mr.
Wilfon. On the other hand, if this Houle, or any
other competent tribunal, fay otherwife, I, Sir, (hall
bow to the decifion ; but as I do not think him un-
worthy, I certainly fhall not difmifs him from his
office till I find it proved, and completely and une-
quivocally proved, that he is otherwile. The Houfe
is probably not aware of the adual Rate of the cafe
with regard to Mr. Wilfon. Mr. Wilfon flood in the
fituation of sating occafionally in the abfence of the
Paymalter, in whole office he held the fecund fitua.
Lion. During the abfence of the Paymaller, which
might be for two or three days at a time, Mr.Wilfon,
by his orders, flgned drafts in the name of the Pay.
matter, for money drawn from the Bank of England.
When he learned that there was a violation of the
Ad of Parliament imputed to Mr. Trotter, and that
a legal crime was coupled with imputation—coupled
in the form of charge, Mr. Wilfon thought, if fuch
a crime involved pains and penalties, that it would
involve him, who had only ailed by deputation. in
pains and penalties afterward ; and he accordingly
availed Ilimfelf of the Ad under which the Commit:
tioners were conflituted. Mr. Wilfon was folely the
deputy of the PaymaAer ; for as to any advantage,
' profit, or benefit from the public money, it is evident
he derived none. There is no moral guilt imputed; and
as to legal guilt, it is fuch as I have not felt myfelf
bound to carry into effe't any other decilion than I
have. Not thinking Mr. Wilfon guilty, I have not
removed him from his flotation.
" Having laid thus much on the topics of a digref.
five nature, which the Hon. Gentleman thought fit
to introduce into his fpeech, I (hall now, Sir, return
to the quedion [nought by the Honourable Gentle.
man before the Houle this night ; and which he
founds on our vote patted two nights ago. I do not
mean to qucltion the fairnefs, validity, or juftiee of

*at vote. T bow to the decition of this branch of
fie Legiflature; yet I may happen to feel not all the
ronfidence which Tome Gentlemen do in the fobriety.
fbundnefs, and equity of it. However, Sir, I wil-
lingly acqiiielce in the decilion of the Houle, and I
repeat, I than not queftion its vote. But, Sir, it is
not a little too hard that, in a mere motion toground
a proceeding on that vote, every pnflible aggravation
fie, old be employed, every thing that can be is draan
from all imaginable fources. Many things not
brought before you when you pallid that vote, now
infilled on, and fome errancous and irrelevant
matters let forth, only in order to miflead opinion,
and extort a judgment not compatible with the juf
Lice or the equity of Parliament. The Hon. Gentle.
man has referred to other modes ..f decifion, and
willies the Houle to bear in mind, that he has other
trials pending. I know nothing of the grounds of
the Hon. Gentleman'. expeaations as to fuccefs in
trials of onqualified rigour, but all who voted the
other night under flood, I believe, that the Houle had
lore the c xi: emity af its duty. Now, the Hon. Gen.
tlemari, however, willies to load the Noble Lnrdwith
irdiead of applauding his fubmiflion to
the vote of Parliament. Inflead of regarding his
eager acquielcence in that vote as any mark of hu
miliation. or of a proper deference to our opinions,
the Hon. Gentleman tells you, that it was all an illu-
fion, all deceit, and even mifcondna in Lord Mel-
ville. But, Sir, %hat is the guilt or mileondua of
Lord Melville ? All that your vote rays, all that we
have voted is, that Lord Melville has violated an All
of PA! 'lament ; it does by no means, or in no fenle,
impute to him corrupt views. The Hon. Gentleman
indeed has told us, that he purpofes bringing for ward
hereatler f.me queflion as to whether the views of
the Noble Lord were corrupt or not ? hut we mufl
wait and fufpend our judgment until the Hon. Gen.
tleman bring forward his propnfitions to Inch effea.
—And the Lion. Gentleman has informed us betides,
that lie means to put in a comic of inveftigation the
quellion of participation, to know whether Lord
Melville has derived profit from the employment, by
the Paymafter, of the public money. Is perfecution
to have no end ? Is Lord Melville, and are the over.
fights of Lord Melville to be uticeafing objeas of de-
bate and dire:lllEon ? The Hon. Gentleman cannot
tepee! to fucceed ultimately with the public. The
public will coolly confider thefe matter!, and, be-
coming wife itfelf, even teach wifdom to the Honour-
able Gentleman.

" We are defired, Sir, to vote the refolation the
Hon. Gentleman has moved you this night. For
one, I cannot concur in any fuch vote. Satisfadion
has been given. Does it not fatisfy reafonable
minds, that Lord Melville has difmiffed himfelf, has
refired his fituation at the Admiralty Board?—
(hear ! kar ! from the IllstVer and his Friends) Is it
contidercd what a humiliation to the Noble Lord to
have been obliged, by a vote of this Houfe, to refign
his employment as an active Minifter of the Crown?
Let the Houk confider, whether loch an end to fuch
a political life be not puni(hment fufficient ? What-
ever may have been the errors of Lord Melville, he
was not Madill a bitter political opponent. He
doomed no man endowed with talent to political ob-
livion. He had been moft impartial in the relation of
military, naval, and other charaders. Some of the
molt dccided of his political opponents were accord-
ingly employed by him. And our hiftory furnithes
no example of a requital loch as that which the
Houle is now called upon to mak: for that dillingnifh-
ed impartiality. And what (hall be thought, when
the accufers PI Lord Melville, when thofe who would
now condemn him to cullers infamy, are to be found
among the very men whole neareß friends were de-
fended in this Houfe not many years ago by the noble
Loll Every body remembers, Sir, that in the year
1795, one of the molt Rrenuous contefts we had for
a lorg time witnefred in this Houfe, was on occafion
of a debate which arofe from a motion concerning
the conduit on a certain foreign Ration, of two noble
perfons, (the Hon. Member alluded to Lords Grey
and St. Vincent) when Lord Melville defended them
with ur:quivocal refped, fincerity, and zeal.—
When Lord Melville is ceafing to be any longer a
Minifler, when his political exittence may be laid to
be no more, after filch fervices rendered to thole
Noble Lords, where lie is only an individual, a pri-
vate man. lie is to be hunted down by the friends of
Lord Sr. Vincent —(A ery of hear, bear! mixed with
lauglii,r, front the Cpkfition,) and by the kindred of
Lod Grey. The oblivion of gratitude is rather a
Spar tan sirtue. In thole times, when it was the con-
demnation of a Spartan patriot, or Page, to have me-
rited the gra•itode of his country, by his felf-devo.
(ion and fact ifices,' important fervices rendered the
commonwealth, only doomed a man to banifbment,
and to the lag degree of ignominy and difgrace.—
The giatioide of the Hon. Gentleman is wholly
Spartan, and their j.iflice is as their gratitude. AL-
auc,,Ty Con preferve us from fuch )'uflice, and
fo..n the operation of a fpirit fo inimical to policy,
realms, and public virtue."
Mr. GREY then role, and proceeded in fuhflance
as follows :—The Right Hon. Gentleman accufes me
for the warmth I have difplayed refpefting this
bufi-
nef:, and in anfwer to this aceufation it is only need*.
fary to fay, that I am quite unconfcious of any fuch
hitternefs, and it would, I think, be rather difficult
for the Right Hon. Gentleman to (hew in what way
it has been evinced. He choofes to congratulate me
-ind my lion. Friend near me (Mr. Whitbread) on
our more than Spartan virtne in voting againft the
Noble Lord, who, as he alledges, was the champion
of thole who are dear to us by the ties of blood, or the
emanations of friend(hip. He tells us that the battle
which the Noble Loid fought for thofe relations was
ditinterelled, and he admires the return we have made
for tilde magnanimous exertions. This, Sir, is a
firange kind of language, but it will be proper for me
to Lall the attention of the Houle to the circumftances
to which the Right Honourable Gentleman has al-
luded. It is fufficiently in the recollection of the
Hot& that tkefe Noble Lords, being in the fervice of
Government, received only bare jultice from the Mi-
nalas of the day. It will be recolleded that among
the low inflances of military glory which dißinguifhed
the Lite war, the two Noble Lords triumphing over
diaic tiiiics of a very formidable nature, had eminently
diitinguittred themfelves. On their return to this
country lions the Welt Indies, fome ditratisfaltion
arofe, and an inquiry was propofed by fome Mem-
bi f this Hoate. What was the conduit of there
• occafion Did they, Sir, fly from

juniee ? Did they with totincle inquiry, or did they
discover any. an toe. .0 conceal their condor% behind
any mean or difhonourable fubtertege? On the con-
trary, did they not court inquiry ? Did they not call
for the fallen invelligation of any part of their con-
duet, and appeal to the fair decision of the Houfe ?
The Right Honourable Gentleman has fpoken as if
there Noble perfons received favours from the Noble
Lord who appeared in their defence, but I utterly
diklaim the exillence of any loch favours The No-
ble Lord defended them becaufe they had ferved
with credit and honour thole by whom they were em•
played. This fort of justice was due not merely to
their particular met its, but it was due to the coun-
try whole intereits they had promoted. Will the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) oppofite,
who on the occalion when the motion for an in-
quiry was brought forward, moved the Amend-
ment, fay, that he did not fetioufly believe that the
charge was rinfoulded—will he fay that he was
not convinced that their cundua, fo far from
bring liable to cenfure, was entitled to the highest
approbation and gratitude ? Am I thew to be told
that the Noble Lord who appeared in defence of the
Noble Lords was conferring a favour on them, or
any of thok by whom they were conneaed ? Am I
to hold myfelf under obligations to the Noble Lord
for a defence of thole gallant officers, whom he him-
fell had employed, and who had fignalized them-
felves in the public fervice. The Right Honourable
Gentleman, however, takes fome merit to the Noble
Lord for employing thofe who were known not to be
in all cafes favourable to the adminiftration of that
period. Without dwelling en this point, or afcer-
taining how far the Noble Lords at that time differ-
ed from Minillers, it is fufficient for me to fay, that
to employ naval and military men of all different
parties, is no proof of the moderation of Minifiers.—
They are compelled, whether they will or not, to
employ the fer vices of thole who are diflinguilhecl by
their talents or their experience, and the Miniller
who would ad otherwife would Coon find that be
could not long perfevere in arrangements utterly re-
pugnant, both to the feelings of this Houk and the
Country. It is hardly poflible to conceive Miniflere
guilty of a greater crime than refufing the let vices of
perfons of known talents, and to whole employment
the only exilling objeCtion was fume differences of
political opinion. But, Sir, the Right Honourable
Gentleman has reprefented the defence of thole No-
ble Perfons a work of great difficulty. It is of con-
fequenee to fee, then, how the cafe really (lands.—
Why, Sir, as nearly as I can recoiled, though I do
not remember what was the majority, only fixteen
Members, that is the odd numbers on the divilion of
Monday, could be found to fupport that charge now
reprefented as In formidable. The cafe was one of the
plain:ft and leafl intricate that can be foppoled, and,
therefore, the Nobl.: Lord's defence was, in point of
difficulty, trifling, and in point of juflice, the Noble
Lords had a right to expel it from thofe who em-
ployed them. I have been obliged to fay fo much'
on this topic ; for, after what fell from the Right
Honourable Gentleman, it was quite impotlible for
me to have remained Talent. Indeed, the Right
Honourable Gentleman's alltifion to this bufinefs was'
equally ill judged and imprlitic. It was calculated
to excite unpleafara feelings without at all advancing
that caufe which he afFeaed to fitt.port. The Right
Honourable Gentl,itran has alluded to the warmth
with which the Noble Lord has been attacked ;
but, really, 1 am at a Ids to difcover where the
leaf} es idence of it has been exhibited. I have
felt no perfonal warmth, or vindictive fpirit on the
fubjea, and I am Cure no part of the conduit of
my Honourable Friend has betrayed any appearance
of a rancorous (pink. I have fupported my Ho-
nourable Friend, from a fenfe of duty, and I only
regret, that I have been prevented from taking that
(hare in the difcuffion which I could have walled.
The Right Hun. Gentleman talks of rancour, of
which no trace has appeared ; but though there has
been no rancour, it was impuflible not to feel thong
indignation when inflances of Rrong delinquency
were difcovered. My Honourable Friend urged thefe
delinquencies, with that force, which was peculiar to
himfclf; but he never reforted to asperity of obferva-
tion. He wifhed only the ends of jullice to be ful-
filled; but when this object was accomplifhed, I am
Cure that my Honourable Friend will never think for
a moment of vit.dietive measures of punithment. It
is with a view to have thefe ends of jultice fatisfied
that the motion of my Honourable Friend has this
evening been brought forward ; but he has declared
that it a fatisfadory affurance is given that :.ord
Melville has doled his political life, he has no with to
prefs the motion at the prefent moment. This furely
is no evidence of rancour of which the Rt. Hon Gen-
tleman speaks fu loudly in his fpeech. As to the ne-
ceffity of the motion I have no fort of hefitation in
laying, that unlefsfornething is added to the Refolu-
tions of Monday night, they are left incomplete.—
After laying that the Noble Lord has been guilty of
a grab violation of an Ad of Parliament, and a high
breach of his duty, we (hall not difcharge our duty to
the country without following up fuch Refolutions
by Come correfponding meafures. Without Tome
others it was almoß a nullity to fuffer the Refulu-
lions of Monday to remain on the J turnals of the
Houk. My Honourabie Friend has laid, and has
laid with truth, that the muiticatian of the refigna-
tion of the Noble Lord by the Right Honourable
Gentleman is far from fiti.fying either the Houfe or
the country. The refignation of the Noble Lord at
another period might have been very proper, but un-
der the prefent circumflances of the country his mere
refignation of his fituation as Firft Lord of the Ad-
miralty is far from coming up to the fpirit of thofe
Refolutions which %sill afford filch general fatisfac-
tion in every part of the Empire. Lord Melville's
refignation after the Rdolutions of Monday was alto-
gether a matter of coot fe. Neither he nor any other
man dared to have continued in power after the opi-
nion of this Houfe was fo folemnly and fo beneficially
expreffed. The refignation has taken place ; but
what fecurity have we ()Stained that he may not,
in a very fltort time, be recalled to a confidential
fituation under the Crown ? The Houfe will bear
in mind that the Noble Lord (till continues a Privy
Councillor, and one part of my Hen. Friend's mo-
tion is, that he be diftniffed, not only from his Majeity's
Councils, but from his prefence for ever. It is sot at
the fame time to be forgotten that the Noble Lord at
this time was aaually in peffeffion of feveral lucra•
five offices held during pleafure—and I do not
think, that after the refolutions we have paired, that,

'the removal of there would be at all carrying pion • 1
tent to an improper length. After the declarations
we have made, can we take any precautions too
Rrong to infure the object which the majority of the
Houle profeffed to have in view? The Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman reds a great deal on delicacy, as
an argument for refilling my Honourable Friend's
motion. I, Sir, am a friend to delicacy, where it
can be exercifed continently with junice ; but I can
never accede to a propofition for flereening convicted
guilt from adequate puriifhment, by any temples
which falfe delicacy would import. With a with then
that our refolutions ['mold not he evaded, butcarried
into the fulleft effeet, I fhould cct tautly be detirous
of feeing my Honourable Friend's motion adopted,
as at once the mot. continent with our honour,
mon agreeable to the calls of jultice, molt confonant
to the expeCtations of the country. I (hall fay only
a few words on fome other topics which the Right
Hononourable Gentleman has thought fit to intro-
duce into his fpeecli. The Right Hon. Gentleman
has fpuken of the arbitrary and defpotic doetrine;
brought forward by my Honourable and Learned
Friend behind me (Mr. G. Ponfonby). But a• my
Hon. and Learned Ft icild is himfell fo competent, it
is not neceffa, y for me to trouble you with many oh-
fervations. But, Sir, I may jolt be permitted to afk,
whether there be any thing extraordinary or incon-
tinent with jollier, any thing inconfotent with the
charter of a Britith wyer, any thing at all ty-
rannical or defpotic, in having a perfon accufed of a
more aggravated crime fectired previous to his trial?
Could this be called a prejudging of the caule ?
As well might we he necofed of prejudging a crimi
sal, becaufe we found it neceffary ro (bin him up in
a prifon previous to the proofs of his guilt being fully
or fairly confide' ed. Here, however, we were talk
ing of a perfon ant accufed, but found guilty. I put
it to the Houle, whether after the cite umltances of
Trotter's concha& were known, it was at all decent
to employ him in a fituation which he bad previoully
employed to the molt improper put poles. If Trot-
ter was not dilmilied, he otreht timely to have been
fufpended tiom hi• 'Zee till the inquit y in this Houle
was clofed. The Right Honourable Gentleman had
advanced nothing to thew that it was not his duty to
have followed this courfe. His whole Ipeech, indeed,
I was nothing but idle rant. and fury, containing no-
thing addi cffed to the reafon of the Honfe, nothing
which affords the lean proof that the motion of my
Honourable Friend thould not be adopted, as the
natural confequence of the previous refolutions.—
Conceiving then this to be 'the cafe, I (hall fupport
the motion as called for by every principle of honour,
every demand of jultice, and every feeling of regard
tor our charuter.

Mr. GEORGE PONSONBY followed, and fpoke
to the following purport—After being fo pointedly
and perfonally alluded to by the Right lion. Gentle-
man. I hope I (hall be favoured with the attention of
the Houfe for a few moments. Since fir(( I had the
honour of a feat in this Houle, I will not attempt
to deny that even it has ever been my ardent with to
Hand high in the etleem of all the Members of whom
it is compofed. After the vote of Monday, howe-
ver, a vote fo honourab!e to the charmer of ;hi; af-
f.mhly, a vote which has exalted its character among
all o:Ciers in the five who value independence and
worth—l confers, that to hand well iu your opinion
has bur oa: a matter of the tomall anxiety. The
Rifiltt Honourable Geralentan has cliofen to fay, that
it I had been a Lritifh Lawyer I never could potlibly
have brought for ward thole tyrannical, delporic, and
oppreffive d.,Cliints which he fudpofes me to have de-
livered. Of having uttered any foci language as
could convey the idea of arbitrary principles nr
praElices, I am utterly unconfcious. I was follow-
ed by a Right Honourable Gentleman who is rin-
queftionably one of the moll found and conflitutional
Lawyers, and a Judge in one of the higheft Courts in
the kingdom, and it is rather remarkable that he took
not the lead notice of thefe fuppofed arbitrary doc-
ttines, though he did me the honour to allude to fe-
, vend parts of my fpeech. If Inch dol:rines had been
contained in what I then adv ,need, it is next to im•
pnflitde that they fhould have efeapt:d the obfervation
of his penetrating and comprehenlive mind. If I did
lay down arbitrary &Chines, they are the fame doc-
trines which many of the moil eminent lawyt:r: that
this country ever Oise I.ave not t rupled to as ow.
The Hon. Gentleman, howevt.r, tells me, that if I
were a Britilh Lawyer, I could not prillibly avaw the
principles be imputes to me. I am not afliamed at
any time, Sir, or under any circumliances, of my
country, and I hope I (hall never he guilty of an
aftion which will give my country cattle to be alhamed
of me. As, however, the Right lion. Gentleman
reds In much on my being a Britifh lawyer, I beg
leave, Sir, to inform him, that 1 have as much B, i-
d& blood flowing in my veins as the Right Ham.
Gentleman can boall of in his. I cannot boall, Sir,
of having arrived, at fo early a per int] of Life as the
Right Hon. Gentleman, at the honours and rewards
which the Right Hon. Gen leman now enjoys :
What I have earned of honor': s and rewards have
been the refult of long labours and painful exer-
tion ; but this I can Eddy allure the licafe, that
never till now have 1 ever been accofed of being an
arbitrary or unconliitutional lawyer. I I;ti,J,
alluding to the cafe of Mr. Trotter, that circum-
(lances had been difclokd which (hewed that he ought
not to have been empirled in the office of Paymaller
of the Navy, and I am (till of the fame opiaion. But
on what pi inciple is it that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man accuses this declaration as inconfirient with the
principles of jullice ? What are Oldie principles they
ate plainly thefe :—that Mr. Trotter bad by his ow n
evidence proved his guilt ; and that the tellimony of
his friend and patron, Lord Melville, inllead of we ik
ening, flrengthened his opinion. I ark then, Sir,
after loch evidence was given before the Commillion-
ers, if it would have ben at all extram clinary or un-
jolt to have fulpended Mr. Trotter till his innocence
or guilt was fully alcertained ? I fay, in finch a fur.
perdion there was no prejudice. Thete was, on the
contrary, that firift regard to the proper application
of the public money, with which the employment of
a perfon even fufpealed of malverfations doer not aro
pear to me to be very conflllent. I think if the Hon.
Member had a6led in this way I am fully fenlible that
neither the Houle nor the country would have blam-
ed him fur his arbitrary or defpotic proceedings. I
entertain a fincere relPed or th_. Right Honourable
Gentleman's talents. Indeed it is not conceivalde
that without great talents he (horrid, at to early a pc.
trod of life, have rifen to that elevation in (tate in

which he is now Oneed. With all my refpeji r•. 'tic
abilities, however, I muff infift that tthcn he r ;-
flouts my obfervations with his notice, he %till
little pains to Rate accurately what I fay, for I ••••
tell, with all my cflocm for his tater ts, I Innnld 11-
relith the idea of his making ipeeches for me (
Having Paid this with rcip:6t to the arbit:4t y dor.
trines of which he accule. me, I Owl!, before I fit
down, fay a few words on the :7 nerd ipreition hef,re
the Houle. My Honottrab!e F lend teems to me to
have framei his motion cn the molt corditterit prin.
ciples. He very properly lays, that thou,4h t',c Ri,;hr
Hon. Gentleman oppolite ( '1:. Pitt) has ir.trniated
to us the refignation cf. tog I raati.,n as
Firft Lord of the Admiralty, he has noe told trt: a hat
is much mote important, what is much mote i;:ti-
in ;zcly c.mneaed with the Refiplmions at M
n;ght, that Lord Melville has el,,fed his poi:-.ical life ;
that he is never more to have any (hare in the .‘Llnsi-
nititation of the affair:, of this g' eat empire. \V
know what arc the conneeti ,ns of the No!slc 1..

how far extended arc the Tefolll ces of his ;1111

None of us are ignorant how imitnately ao;ra.
the confidence of the Mininers nt the Cron n. arai
how anxious they would at aay time be to re': iv: his
aavice and lupport. We It rye, inderendent refs mo-
tion firnilar to that of my Hon. Fiend, net tactility
againfl his return to power, a thing totally incorifilt-
era with the Ittfolutions of alonday,lnd which wr uld
sander them mere wake paper on the J .or rils. But
even admitting that Lnrd Melville did nominally re-
tire, let it be kept in mind that lie flat C.Pillinnes a
Privy Councillor, as my Honourable friend bi law me
(Mr. Grey) has already very properly remarked
While the conneation of the Noble Lard ssah the
Adminittration of the country continues, Inch as it
now is, I prolefs that I arm nor fatisfied that we have
gained what our grand thuggle of Monday lu ju tly
entitled us to espeal. Let me itippnfe, Sir, that this
intimacy continues, and that the alinilter employs
his influence to mifreprcfent and vilify the dectlions of
this Houfe. Let me fuppofe that the prefs is hired
into the fervice, and that the public are 'old in pub-
lication after pubacatiert by the friends and crea-
tures of Minitters, that Lntd Melville has been run
dawn by a defperatc fiCtion in this Houe—that he
has been condemned unheard—that he offered to call
evidence to prove the falfity of the accufations againtt
him, but was refufed—that in (hart he is a much
perfecuted, and much injured man. Let me fuppofe
that by thefe delnfions the thong fentimcnts of
ho-
nourable indignation which now aelnate the public
mind are a goad deal deadened, and that the Mini.
tier, availing himfelf of thefe favourable changes.
(hnuld during the reccfs if Parliament venture on
the daring meafure of once more recommending Lot d
M. to the fervice of his Sovereign, and that his Ma-
jetty, fatally yielding to this recommendation, fhould
once more receive him into his Councils. Let me
fuppofe this, which is not by any means an impolli-
ble cafe, and what then is to become of all our Refit-
lutions—of all our efforts to Item the growth of cora
rupti ,n—of all our exertions to bring peculators,
however elevated their rank, or extenfive their influ-
ence, to an ignominious uniiiiment. It is to guard
equally againft this and any limilar cafe that I am in-
clined to limprt the motion of my Honourable
Fr:end. The Riglit Hon. Gentleman lhongly re-
commends to us the propaiety t:f leniency in our pro-
ceedings. I am no enemy, air, to leniency when
properly exerted, and I have ma with that the Noble
Lord (hould be treated wall tranecenry feverity.—
But, before I can be lenient, 1 mutt know that the
carafe of public jritlice is fecure... 1 mutt be fatisfied
that the Noble Lord (hall not again have it in Ns
power to have any weiaht in our national councils.
will' to have the public money placed lately beyond
the reach of the corrupt and profligate. I am willing
to (hew as much tendernefs as pnflible to the Noble
Lord, though I confers I never had the honour to ex-
change one word with him in the tkholecourfe of my
life ; but I (hall be a party in lenity to no man till I
have provided agaiuft peculation ainong great public
men. I am clear. Sir, for making every public delin-
Tient refund what he has unjustly obtained out of the
public purfe, and I (hall certainly iiippnrt my Ho-
nourable Friend in all his motions for carrying
through this glorious work of reforeci. aVaile I thait
fupport the motions tier caliing Lord Melville and
Mr. Trotter to a stria accoun', I 'hall be equally a
hien(' to any inveltigation of the controul exercital
by the Treatur y over the inferior offices. It is the
duty of the Treaftiry to fee that negligence and
wale does net exia in the inierior departments. I
do not impute corrupt praatices to the Right Ho.
nouraale Genriemcn at the bead of the Treatury, for
I do not like to impute corruption to any one without
thong evidence ; bat I do tee from the report that
the firperintendance of the Treafur y has in many
inilances been criminally relaxed. The rank of the
Commillioners is not to fcreer them from inquiry;
and I hull the future proceed'ngs of the Houle will
fully prove the truth of this opinion. Though
p I am
a Reprefentative for another part of the kingdom, I
111 ill feel no hefitation in laying that I confider my-
!fell as much a Reprefentative for Great Britain as
fur Ireland, and un all occafions fliall endeavour Ca
:la on this liberal principle. (il I.ud ear cj hoar! hear!)
It the motion is pc:liar:a in, it certainly (hall have
my cordial vote.
Mr. CANNING explained, and Rated Lnrd
vilie was as effeaually excluded from his Majefly's
I Councils by what had alreaay taken place, as !a
could be by any Refolution of the Houle to that effea.
Mr. ROBERT THORNVON jultified the Pena-.
of England. rate allufion to the conduat of tlaa
Corporation was his chief motive for addrefring rf e
Houle. He faid that the Tenth Report gave al;
accurate account of part of the examination rot a
principal r ffis:er and very relpeatable ter vant of that
body, Mr. Abraham Newland. The anlavers let
down for Mr. Newland, in One Report, were not
perfe&ly corral. It nas !ince fanod that the Pay-
matter was on every occation i;,ulatly careful to
fpecify the heads of rar vice under which he drew
from the Bank in every draft. The office where Elide
halifaCtions took place were not rimier the particular
management of Mr. Newlana, but under that of
another office! ; and lie (Mr. Thornton) had en•
quired within this dry or two, and found that me
.toy other draft but itch a> fpecifia.l the heads of fcr•
vice, sere ever arefented for payment at the Bank.
No payments were made but to the Clerks of the
taiatualling and other Offices, arithorifed by name
by the Treafurers of the Navy, fence 1;84, to draw.
Hides. Trotter and Wilton, and the four other'

berg of this Hi ale.
noble patens on that