Star.
London, England, 1830-03-12 00:00:00

PORTUGAL.

Lord HOLLAND—I now riee,---tny lords, for the purpose of
putting some questions to the noble Secretary for Foreign Affairs
with respect to our relations with Portugal. There appears to me
to be but scanty information on the subject. In requesting the Infor.
:nation of the noble earl, it will be necessary to refer to the corn.
munications from the throne which we have had from time to time,
connected with the affairs of" that country. On the 29th of July,
1828, in the speech from the throne, his Majesty says, " he
relies upon the wisdom of the august house of Braganca to
take the course which shall be best calculated to maintain the
interests and honour of that illustrious family, and to se.
cure the peace and happiness of the dominions over which
it reigns." At the opening of the session of 1829, we are told that
" his Majesty has entered into nations with the head of the
house of Bragwiza, in the hope of terminating a state of affairs;"
and at the close of the session this paragraph is in the speech—" It
is with increased regret that his Majesty again adverts to the condi-
tion of the Portuguese monarchy; but his Majesty commands us
to repeat his determination to use every effort to reconcile conflict-
ing interests, and to remove the burdens which press so heavily
upon a country, the prosperity of which must ever be an object of
his Majesty's solicitude." At the commencement of the present
session, the speech states that " his Majesty laments that he is un-
able to announce to you the prospect of a reconciliation between the
princes of the house of Dragons." Reim these communications, I
suppose that a negociation was established with our allies, with a
view of reconciling the differences which exist between the branches
of the house of Bragariza, for we aro led to believe that such a nego-
elation was established ; and from the speech last quoted, we learn
that his Majesty's hopes have been disappointed i the natural in.
ference is, that the negociation failed. But, since this, other cir-
cumstances have occurred, and we are told in a document to which I
know it is not quite regular to allude—nevertheless, the document
is made known le all Europe.—l mean, my lords, the communica-
tion of the King of France, at the opening of the Chambers on the
Id of this month. In that communication, I find that the French
King informs his Chambers that " at the present moment he is, in
concert with his allies, carrying on negociations, the object of which
is to effect between the princes of the house of Braga= a recon-
ciliation, necessary to the tranquillity of the Peninsula." Now, my
lords, the questions which I wish to put to the noble earl are
these—First, whether the negociations which were originally esta-
blished in 1829, and alluded to in the speech at the opening of the
present parliament, arc terminated or not ? Secondly, whether, in
the negociations entered into by his Majesty with her allies. France
entered into negotiations for a similar purpose, or whether France
has some ulterior purpose ? also, whether we are principal parties
to the second negociation, or have a secondary part in the negocia.
WM, in which, as principals, we failed? The third question re-
slates to another branch of the subject, lolly irregular to allude to,
tr
to which, nevenheleas, I feel it ,t to call the attention of the
My lords your lordships well know that his Majesty's mi.
*ten have invariably given as a reason for not producing papers
to tin g negotiations when pending, that it would be improper so
Now, I wish to know, if the negociations are actually
pmeillig, whether they are carried on in concert with our allies, and
erbethar the Kings of France and Spain are parties ? These, my
lade, are the questions 1 wish to put to the noble earl. There is,
I may add, my lords, some discrepancy between the Speech of the
King of France and that delivered by the lords commissioners at
the opening of the present parliankent to this house, in one particu-
lar. In the Speech of the Kitts of France it is stated that " the war
in the East is at an end ; the meieration of the conqueror, and the
friendly intervention efike pottai, by,preserving the Ottoman em-
vire froeh the dhiastetiVhialtna it, having maintained the
balance of Europe, sad stellgthesed the ancient relations of the
different States.' New, in eke speech of the commissioners a ea-
twactiop is eippierelaaposiso of the war between those two
powers ; bit I 'dit not Sat it was brought about on the
' part of his majoity, there ts any omission in the cons.
soissioners' in shat suet I am not able to say.
411111DEEN.....1n answer to the questions which the
wire*
sofas Ilaasard, I, beg to observe, that the negotiations to
ISM
he hoe ' with the Emperor Don Pedro, is the summer
of ISM were sat brought to that favourably close that was desirable

—they bad not been attended with so satisfactory a result as could
have been wished. Properly speaking, no negotiations had been
carried on,ferred to inasmuch as our plenipotentiary went to the Brazils,
but was Landon,re it being conaidered by the Emperor
inconvenient to carry on negotiations on both sides the Atlantic at
the same moment. With respect to the negotiations in which we
entered with the King of France, that is a different uansaction.
We certainly act in concert with, the French government, but by no
means in a secondary manner. Quite the reverse. A communica-
tion has been made in concert with the French government, in re-
ference to the reconciliation of the Princes of the house of Bragimsa
As to the ulterior purposes of that government I know nothing, if
any such exist, but Ido not think there are. (The noble earl here
Paused.)
Load HOLLAND suggested an answer respecting pending nego-
tiations.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—Pending negotiations 1 I beg to say,
my lords, that they could scarcely be called negotiations. A com-
munication has been made, in concert with the Kkg of France and
with our allies to the court of Brasil. . ,
Lord HOLLAND—The court of Brasil P

The Earl of ABERDEEN signified assent. With respect to
what the noble lord has said, that papers are refused when negotia.
dons are pending, it must be obvious to your lordships that such •
course is the proper one. When the time comes for the production
of the papers alluded to, the noble lord will see a very good reason
for not producing them at the present moment. I am not aware
whether such a declaration was made * • but this I feel assured of,
that if the papers were produced whilst negotiations are pending, it
might prove injurious to the parties for whom the noble lord is in.
tested. With respect to the passage in the speech of the King of
France quoted by the noble lord, I do not think ft bears the con-
struction which the noble lord has given it. Our endeavours to
bring about a peace between the two powers alluded to have been
unceasing, and I think it will be found that we have been instru-
mental in causing peace. We have strongly urged the necessity of
peace to both parties, and what effect our repeated remonstrances
have had will be ultimately seen. I will, however, say that neither
party neglected attending to them, but undoubtedly the Turkish go.
remittent appeared a length of time insensible of the situation in
which they were placed.
Lord HOLLAND—I am not certainly 'prepared, my Lords,
with any motion on this subject, but I must be permitted to make
one or two observations in consequence of what the noble earl has
said. In the speech from the throne, at the opening of the sessions
of 1829, it is said that his majesty has entered into negotiations with
the head of the house of Braganca. Now, my lords, I wish to
know whether that negotiation is concluded. I think from what
the noble earl has said that the negotiation is concluded, and the
one in conjunction with the king of France is a separate and
new. one.
The Earl of ABERDEEN—The noble lord is not quite correct
in describing this as an entirely new negotiation, inasmuch as the
same object is in view in both. The negotiation entered into im-
mediately with the Emperor Don Pedro had arrived at that state that
there was very little prospect of a favourable issue. With respect
to the second negotiation with the court of France and our other
allies, I can only say that it is entered into with perfect concord.be.
tween the two countries. _

Lord HOLLAND—Then the court of France was not a party
to that negotiation mentioned in the king of England's speech, but
it is to the negotiation now existing. Ido not wish to ask any im-
proper questions, but 1 should like to know whether the court of
Spain is a party ?
The Earl of ABERDEEN—In answer to the noble lord, I
beg to say that the court of Spain is no party to the negotiation.
The court of Austria has been a party from the first of the trans.
action. I may add, my lords, that through the whole of these ne-
gotiations the court of France has had cognizance of what we have
done from the first. _ _

The conversation here dropped.
The Marquis of BUTE presented a petition (in the absence of a
noble friend) from Renfrew, complaining of distress, and suggesting
the abolition of taxes which press on the working claws.
Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill was reported with one
amendment.
On the motion of the Earl of ROSSLYX, the bill was ordered to be
engrelielt arriage Validating Bill passed through a committee.
In the committee, Lord Ilom.xxn eulogised the right reverend
prelate (the Bishop of London) for bringing in the bill. A clause
was inserted at the suggestion of the Bishop of Bath and Wells;
and an amendment to one of the clauses by the Bishop of London.
Adjourned at a Quarter past Six.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, THURSDAY.

Mr. NIELD, the Member for Oatton, took the oaths and his seat.
Mr. W. PEEL presented the 22d report on public charities, and
also some papers relating to vaccine institutions.
Mr. BOBHOUSE gave notice that he would on Thursday next
move for certain returns from the Bank of England, in continuance
of former returns. Be thought fit to give notice because he under.
stood the Bank had refused to comply with the request.
The honourable Mamma also presented a petition from Walter
Freeman, a clerk in the Navy-office, relative to the currency.—Laid
on the table. . _

Mr. NORTH presented a petition from the tanners of the city of
Kilkenny, against the leather tax.
Lord .7. STUART presented a petition from the inhabitants of
Cardiff interested in the coal trade, against the regulations respecting
coals carried coast ways.
Sir C. COLE supported the petition, which was laid on the table
and ordered to be printed.
Sir THOMAS FREEMANTLE moved for a return of the
amount of moneys paid out of the Exchequer to High Sheriffs of
counties on account of extraordinary charges, distingvishhig each
county, &c.—Ordered.

PEER LICENSING SYSTEM.
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON said he rose for the purpose of
presenting a petition from a very numerous and respectable body of
persons—the licensed victuallers of the city of London and ha
airy ; the petition was signed by 11,000 persons interested in the
sale of beer:by retail. He considered it unnecessary to state to the
house the large property embarked by these individuals in their
business ;it must be known to every member present. He would
only state the fact that, in the city of London and its vicinity, there
were about 4,300 licensed victuallers, and the capital embarked by
them could not be estimated at less than one million sterling.—
He would wish to impress this fact on the memory of honourable
members, who would shortly have to decide upon the important
question whether the beer trade was to be thrown open or not. If
the alterations should take place he felt convinced that one-half of
this industrious and respectable clam of persons must be rulned,and
tilkttorty of the other reduced 50 per cent. in value, whilst the
likely to arise to the public in general was vary uncertain.—
consumption of beer had fallen off considerably, he would
allow, but he didnot attribute this to any fault of the publicans; it
bad been produced, in some degree, by the reduction of the duties
on wine, spirits, and coffee. But above all, he considered as the
principal cause of this diminished consumption the very heavy duty
upon malt. He considered that the publicans could not be blamed
on account of the monopoly in the sale of beer; it was a monopoly
which had existed for centuries, and been the cause of creating a
fictitious property in licensed houses. The publicans had em-
, barked large sums under the existing state of the laws, and it was
now sought, by a change in those laws, to deprive them of the
greater portion of their property. The petitioners prayed that they
might be heard by Council, and allowed to call evidence ingainet
throwing open the trade.
Mr. Aid. WOOD supported the petition. He stated that such
was the decline in the sale of beer, that one half of the publicans
had not trade sufficient to live upon at present. He did not consider
that by throwing open the trade any benefit would arise to the pub-
lic. The price could not be reduced so long as the heavy malt tax
was continued—a duty which pressed with such disproportion upon
the working classes, compared with the rich ; for whilst the gen-
tleman paid only a duty of 26 per cent. on his claret, the industrious
working man had to pay 150 per cent. upon his humble beverage.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT was in favour of the trade being thrown
open to fair competition, by which the country must be bensiltted.
—He considered that this was an instance in which it was attempted
to set up vented interests as a bar to the execution of a measure likely
to be productive of public good. He felt confident the opening of
the trade would be of great service,not only in this country, but also
is Ireland.
Mr. G. R. DAWSON considered that the petitioners were a body
el persons deserving the greatest consideration. They petitioned for
leave to plead their own cause upon a subject on which a committee
was then sitting; be therefore thought it would be much better if
sissy laid their representation before that committee, where they
Weald meet with every attention, and every inquiry would be made,
lather than gentlemen should come forward, and make exaggerated
statements to the house, arising from the conflicting interests in-
voked in the question, which he considered to be one of very great
=apace. He hoped hon. members would not be led away by
I:representations. He should reserve his arguments for a
proper occasion, and feel satisfied, without protracting the debate,
by moving that the petition be referred to the committee now sitting
on Beer Licenses.
Alr. F. BUXTON considered that the observations whleb.liad
fallen from the honourable baronet were uncalled for and harsh. If
the monopoly in the sale of beer had been an evil, neither the brewers
nor the publicans were the cause of it. The evil originated in the
excessive taxation of this particular article—one which fell so hea-
vily, and out of all proportion, on those the least able to bear it.
,He would not go so fr.
some dmres ibotwth
the tsza#ou wy-

;Cid:lshow
beverage of

amounted to 27 per cent. that on claret to 28 per cent. on Port wine
to 26 per cent. whilst the working man and industrious artisea
on beer 165 per cent. (Hear, hear !) This was one portion of the'
effect produced by this unequal imposition. In another shape it
still op reared the poorer class, whilst it left nearly untouched the
rich. If a gentleman consumed in his family a quarter of malt,
it cost hint 20s. whilst to the artisan it would amount to 55s

(Hear, hear, hear.) It was to these causes of unequal taxation
that he attributed the evil, and not from any imaginary advan-
tages arising to the publican. With respect to the diminished
consumption of beer, he considered that It bad been principally
I produced by the reduction of the duty on spirits. (Hear.) The
contemplated change he, as one of the porter brewers, was ready to
admit, would be attended with a heavy loss in their trade—but not
one but what they could withstand ; and, if the trade was to
be thrown open, the brewers did not fear a fair competition. But to
the publican, who had embarked his capital in the purchase of the
privilege of carrying on his trade, it must be attended with the most
ruinous consequences. If this interference could be at all justified
on public grounds, he hoped to see the spirit of free trade carried to
the fullest extent, and not for the country gentleman to continue his
advantage over the poor man. If fine trade is to be the order of the
day, he hoped it would be permitted to purchase corn and hops in
foreign countries, where they could be purchased much cheaper;
and, with respect to hops, of a finer description than in this coun-
try. (Hear.) In conclusion, he could not but repeat, that he con.
Wend the publicans' case as one of great hardship. As for the
brewers, they could live under the present circumstances, and he
did not fear an open trade, so that it was not a partial one; but he
trusted that it would be founded on principles of the utmost freedom.
Mr. C. BARCLAY gave his Majesty's government credit for
the motives which had induced them to bring forward this mea-
sure. He, however, considered that the utmost attention ought to
be paid to the representations of those who had embarked their pro.
perty under the existing laws, and that no change ought to take
place without the moat mature deliberation. He thought that the
petitioners should state their grievances before the committee sp.
pointed on the question.
The petition was then brought up and read. It prayed that the
house would not sanction the trade being thrown opsa. and also that
they might be heard by counsel against the bilL—Tho petition was
referred to the committee sitting on beer licenses.
DISTRESS or TEL COUNTRY.

Sir FRANCIfiI3I.II6SETTI presented a petition from numerous
inhabitants of the city of Coventry, complaining of the distress pre-
vailing amongst numerous classes In that city, which they ascribed
in some degree to the contracted state of the currency, and praying a
reform in parliament.
Mr. FYLER said, although the petition had not been en-
trusted to him, he did not take offence at It. He agreed with
the petitioners in some points, whilst he differed from them in
others—such, for example, as annual parliaments and election
by ballot.
The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. DENISON presented petitions from the farmers of various
places in Surrey complaining of distress, and praying the repeal
of the malt and duties.
Mr. EYLER presented a petition from 2,400 Abend weavers of a
parish in Coventry, complaining of their very distressed state.
Ordered to be printed.
Mr. WODEHOUSE moved for r return of the average price of
corn for the last ten years, previously to 1825.-... Ordered.

EAST INDIA COMPANY'S CHARTER.

Mr. C. P. THOBISON presented kpetition from numerous mer-
chants of the city of London interested in the East India trade,
against the renewal of the East India Company's Charter. The
petition prayed for freedom of commercial intercourse with India,
and for unrestrained liberty to reside in that country. By unre-
strained liberty, they meant nothing which would lead to a breach
of the law, or any act by which the safety of those extensive and
valuable dominions might be endangered. They also prayed that
the company might be restricted from issuing stamp-duties, and
also that these should take place a perfect separation between the
commercial government and the sovereign government exercised by
the company at present in India, and that the company might be
restrained from interfering is commercial pursuits. Also, that the
remittances home should be made in bills. With respect to the
tea monopoly, the petitioners refrained from alluding to the subject,
as they were divided in opinion on that point. He would, however,
express his own opinion, which was in accordance with those of
persons most acquainted with the subject, and which was, that it
would be attended with advantage if the monopoly were partly done
away with.
The petition was then read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. JEPHSON profaned a petition for the abolition of slavery.
Mr. O'CONNELL said a few words in support of the petition,
which was laid on the table. _

Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from a most numerou.
and respectable body of persons. The honourable gentleman stated
that this petition contained the signatures of every tanker, every
merchant, every ship-owner, and every respectable tradessoket the
town of LiverpooL It contained 7;000 signatures. As a summit-
tee was then sitting on the subject to which the petition retool, he
did not think its fit time to go into a discussion, but wouldmmsly
state that it prayed that the East India Company's monopoly might
not be renewed.
General GASCOYNE would also refrain from discussion, and
would merely observe that, no doubt, something like the pretest
they had heard that evening from the publicans would be set up in
opposition to the adoption of a free trade, vit. vested interests were
at stake (bear.) The debt, too, would be started as an obstacle,
and they would probably ask, as they did on the last renewal of the
charter, " If you take away our charter, how are we to pay off the
debt ?" On that occasion it was seven millions : what would they
say to it now that it was so much more ? The petitioners asked
but to participate in the trade to which they, as subjects of the same
realm, were justly entitled, and not to interfere in the least degree
in the political government of the country. He (General Gascoyne)
was at a loss to know what arguments could be adduced for the con-
tinuance of the exclusive trade to China. The interests of the
whole country were opposed to those of a few ; it wasin comparison
as millions to 2 or 3,000 individuals.
Mr. ASTELL would raise his voice against all exaggerated
statements. He trusted this subject and all Its relative bearings
would be amply considered in the committee then sitting.
The petition was read, and ordered to be printed ; it purported
to be the petition of certain inhabitants of Liverpool, entreating the
house to abolish the monopoly of the East India Company in the
trade to India.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented a petition from the Jews of Liver.
praying to be relieved from their present civil disabilities.--
The petition was read and laid on the table.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented two petitions in favour of Radical
Reform in the Commons House of Parliament—the first from
Tullagh, in the county of Clare ; the second from 10 persons sign-
ing on behalf, as he stated, of 30,000 inhabitants of London, con-
vened at a public meeting at the Eagle Tavern, City-road, en
Tuesday last. The petitioners, he stated, in both cases, at-
tributed the present universal distress to the want of a thorough
and radical reform in that house, which he described a: an
instalment of the oligarchy of the country, instead of a repre-
sentation of the commonalty.—The petitions being read, were or-
dered to be printed.
General GASCOYNE presented the petition of the mayor,
burgesses, and council of Liverpool, praying the abolition et the
Salt India Company's monopo of the trade to India—The
Men wee was ordered to be referred to the committee sitting on that
LEVESON GOWER brought up, pursuant to the order
of the house, the Charitable Societies of Ireland Estimates.—Laid
an the table.
Mr. SLANEY presented a petition from the own of Oldham, in
the county of Salop, against the truck system.
IRISH room,.
Mr. SPRING RICE prefaced his promised motion on this sub-
ject by expressing, in extremely complimentary language, his
r~ret that It was not confided to the hands of its able and eloquent
advocate, Mr. Villiers Stuart, no longer a member of that house.—
in the propriety of some of the remedies pro on
Mom oscadons, by that gentleman, he could not say he
yet Iss perfiNdy agreed with him in the statement he bad mak
that a sat COW WM IllaSollt ter the interference of the legls.
lature, in assougdog to poodistwrrdie Irish poor. There was some.
thing favour able Is the yosseat nonent for bringing forward this
motion, alter so ossa anesdation hr the public mind as to the
expediency of the iksks et the eatholics into a full-participation
of the benefits of the sensdtatien. The religious prejudices which
had hitherto maimed this question had fortunately subsided by
the happy terrines da of that long-agitated question. no dam&
there could be akdasibt in any man's mind, who read the two re-
ports of the Lads aid Commons' committees on the subject of the
Irish poor, that shwa was a ease made out for the house to interfere,
and institute apeaid inquiry into this very important su •
Hell, it welsai4 wen payed with good intentions; and so It
Ibe said their* id that bowie was paved with reports au
wise, sound, sad asedist changes in different brancheit of our
and religious isUilllsliniente. (Hear). But they too often lay
till they we
ar hoessien. One thing he would pledge himself to,
that, If the home agreed to the Committee, he would not suffer its
Report to remain a dead letter on their table. (Hear.) All the
additional evidence, besides the two Reports alluded to, he should
move for, would only refer to that information which was requisite
to fill up the details of information relative to the state of the Irish
poor since those Reports bad been drawn up, so as to bring it up
to the present rime. His objects were practical, end he should,
therefore, avoid all anxiety to give any statement which might at
all of ezaggention • to the sego or Annals. et the sae
" Ireland.

Commerce, which was one of the reasons of this singular circum-
stance in the relative conditions of the two countries, had gone
on of late years increasing with a rapidity unparalleled in the his-
tory of any other country at this day; and the result already
was, that the exports of Ireland, amounting in 1728 to no more
than 287,0001. now have so far increased, that the exports of a
second-rate city of Ireland, Waterford alone, amounted last year
to above 2,163,000L—(hear.) There was a growing capital in the
matey ; the banking interest flourished ; fevers had become
less frequent in so extraordinary a degree that there were only at
present one instance to four of former periods. The criminal can.
mitments and the condemnations were decreased astonishingly.
Executions had rapidly decreased, being in preceding years on an
average of 61, whilst, in 1821, they were 37, and, in 1827, not
more than 21. Those persons charged with seditious offences in
the year 1623 were 14 in number ; in 1825, 9 ; in 1828, nut one.
And here he must, in proceeding to the second head of his remedy
for the imperfections of the provision for the poor, say a word in de-
fence of the landowners and better order of persons in Ireland, who
had, on some occasions, with great injustice and levity, been ac.
cased of neglecting the poor, and feeling little for their situation.
National reflections were rarely ever just, and this assertion shared
the fate of most of he fellows. It was altogether false, and end.
nently unjust to the Irish character, which had displayed itself in
the erection of charitable foundations, and buildings for the relief of
all classes of sufferers, whether through poverty, sickness, or In-
sanity, far beyond any other country he was acquainted with, taking
Into consideration, hr the comparison, the capital and wealth of
Ireland and other countries. In every county in Ireland, Water-
ford excepted, which was provided in another way, there were excel.
lent county hospitals. The next establishments to which he should
allude were the fever hospitals. These were established all over the
iMmtry ; and there were no charitable institutions where cases
ef fever were more carefully or Judiciously treated than at those
M which be referred. There were also establishments for the
relief of the sick poor. There were nearly 400 of these dis-
tributed throughout the country, without one farthing of expense
from the public (Hear, hear.) He was happy to inform the
house that relief had been afforded from those places to upwards of
half a million of persons. (Hear, ham) He stated those circum.
stances, to show the house how cautious they should be of adopting
opinions at random, or supposing that the poor were neglected merely
because they might have heard so. He hoped, therefore, that gen-
demen, before they took up such an opinion, would care to
furnish themselves with the necessary knowledge. But it was
asked what was to be done for the Irish poor. In approaching ;this
subject, he would observe, in the first place, that the introduction
of Poor Laws into Ireland had been twice considered—once incl.
dentally, and once directly—since the Union between the two coun-
tries. In 1804 it was Introduced by his right honourable ft lend (Sir
John Newport), whose name was mixed up with every measure for
the improvement or the relief of Ireland. A committee was cop.
pointed upon that occasion, who reported It as their opinion that
the adoption of any, general compulsory system of relief...not
founded upon the encouragement of industry—was calculated to in-
jure, not to sate, the lowest classes of the people, for whose benefit
it was intended. Again in 1822, when a committee was appointed
on the subject of providing employment for the poor the question of
Poor Laws was incidentally introduced, and it would operate as a
recommendation of the report of that committee with many persons
to know that it was drawn up under the eye, and with the assist.
twee of, Mr. Ricardo. The report stated that any system of relief,
independent of their own industry, would interfere with the industry
of the poor, and tend rather to increase than diminish the evil ever -
tually. He did not mean to say to the House of Conunons " Let us
adopt these opinions; let us act upon this authority" All he meant
to say was, that it would be unwise to leave those authorities alto.
gather out of sight ; and that, if they did resolve to depart front these
opinions, they should not do so without inquiry, and without making
out a case which could satisfy their own minds that they were right
in the departure. He had stated before that they had houses :of in-
dustry in Ireland, and as it was the intention of the honourable
member for Wicklow to introduce a proposition for establishing
such houses by a compulsory rate, it was necessary that he (Mr. S.
Rice) should notice the probable effects of such a measure. In fact.
such a proposition involved the whole question of the poor laws.—
(Bear, hear.) It might be a small beginning, but it was a begin.
fling ; and, as the smallest possible crystal might be taken to repre.
sent the largest possible one, so this slight application of the system
might be considered as representing the whole system of the poor
laws, and argued upon principle accordingly. In prosecuting this
inquiry, it was not enough to show hint that 100 or 200 persons
were well fed under the operation of houses of industry—that was
not enough. They should show him that the sum of misery had
been reduced in the district; for, if it should turn out that they
were only taking the money out of the pockets of one class of
people, and putting it into the pockets of another, without pro.
dusting any diminution of misery, it was evident that they were
doing very little good, if not a great deal of evil. The experiment
of adopting houses of industry had been tried upon the largest
possible scale in the city of Dublin; and what was the result,
after all ?—That the paupers of Dublin had been fed out
of the pockets of the English people. Since the Union there had
been no less a sum than 803,0001. laid out in this experiment.--
During the administration of the bon. member for Inverness in Ire-
land, a committee had been appointed to investigate the subject.
and they reported the total failure of the houses of industry. The
ripen proceeded to observe that it was not elms but those institu-
tions might have aggravated the evil, by attracting beggars from all
the other parts of Ireland, and thus filling up whatever vacuum
might be created in Dublin by continual supplies from the country.
Would it, then, be a benefit to the people of Ireland to entail upon
them, as a t law, an institution of the nature just de.
scribed ? e would recommend to his hon. friend to visit the
asylums in the country, as he had done, before he came to the de.
termination that they were likely to be attended with advan.
tage. (Hear, hear.) Having himself had an opportunity of e init.
ing one of these establishments in particular, he found there a
pompous list of Directors, medical attendants, and other officers,
but he found that the greatest neglect pervaded every depart.
ment—he found that, during the ravages of a fever, the
medical man had never attended, but was prescribing
for his patients, at the distance of some miles. His hon. friend
could scarcely think but that establishments of that nature, half
hospital, half gaol, must be liable to the same abuses, and certain it
was that the poor themselves would feel very little gratitude for
such relief. He was aware that there were many visionary theories
upon subjects of this nature. Doctor Davenant and Sir James
Child expected the greatest benefit from them. On the other hand,
there were great practiCal authorities opposed to such systems, and
to the general principle of the poor laws. Doctor Franklin bad
stated it as the result of his experience, that the more the law pro.
vided for the poor, the less did the poor provide for them.
selves ; and the less the law provided, the less did the
poor provide. The proposition which he now was about to
meet was the application of the English poor laws to Ire-
land. If they looked into the history of the English poor
laws, they would find that from the passing of the 43el of
Elisabeth, up to the present moment, there existed a wish in
this country either to depart from or to amend the principle
upon which these laws were founded. But it was sometimes said, in
treply to this, that Ireland should have the benefit of the experience
Q England--that she should have the English poor laws without
their faults. By what chemical process this was to be effected be
did not see ; but he would say let England, which is more a country
olretillosophers, first reform their own laws, and then give them to
din their amended state. This would be the natural say to
give that country the benefit of English ep.... . It was some-
what discouraging, however, to reflect that Mr. Pitt, Mr. S. Bourne.
Mr. Nolan, BIT. Slaney, and others, had applied themselves in vain
to the improvement of the English poor laws. He regretted that the
hon. member for Newark, to whose work lie should refer, was not now.
in his place. 1 hough he (31r. S. Rice) disputed many of the prin-
ciples and doubted many of the facts contained in the honourable
gentleman's work, he felt obliged to him, as an Irishman, for the
attention he bad bestowed on the subject, and the benevolence which
every where characterised his opinions and views. (Hear, hear.)
The hon. gentleman of who.n he spoke was an advocate for the ap-
plication of poor laws to Ireland. Ile had described the poor laws
as a remedy for the existing evils. No one could deny that the
oils wete great, foe he would beg leave, in the first instance, to
separate himself from the doctrine of those economists who held
that absenteeism was not an evil. (Hear, hear.) But when he was
sold by the honourable member for Newark that poor laws would
net only be a cure for absenteeism, and a check to those clearance.
if the population from estates to which he was a professed entryy
he might be referred for his answer to the political economists them-
selves. Happily for those who disapproved of the introduction of
poor laws, they had two classes of opponents to deal with, who an-
ew,* each other. One said the introduction of poor laws will
meant the dispossession of the tenants by their landlords. The
ran said, it will compel the landlords to dispossess them.—(llesr,
he*IMO But he would say, that if the economists were correct
eissmalstn it would be a reams with him for DOI agreeing to
illnisfillifin. He did not wish to give the landlads any additional
bilmunamt foe driving off their tenantry. Another great grievance
lis lidied Iris the want of employment; and the member for New-
adellaintained flat poor laws, would be a remedy for that also. It
Amiable to know in what way. How could the existence of
5:14,
laws increase the demand for labour ? The demand de.
upon circumstances wholly independent of such considers.
dais It appeared to him more likely that they would diminish,
Increase hutch demand. If they took money from those who
otherwise have, laid it out in the improvement of laud, the
must be 40 that extent to deprive them of the means of sir-
bytemployment, The fellUlajMl4/011 for labour was said, &admit,'
11401 h W big huoittluMe in Ireland. But why was it inadequate ?
--Am the, - ' labour ' required.