Star.
London, England, 1831-02-05 00:00:00


would he Ism sMe to manse thew
dies the resat let did sot ppetudee say
He (sr.
admitted 0b5t=114648.61:11

bowesbeld, was Inirer#seitidoff ttth
expense, he had- lase* *Sr Me i 'Wet
much to spar.. On mu important point ho -hams& •altdatiosiaa.
it was the abolition of the auditor of the •expilibm dell list,
which could only effect a saving of 2,4001. as being clunites'elles,
which might be performed by the Tremor* Besoll."." What •be
(Mr. Goulburn). was at the Treasury Odin, larbsolliand`that. Aar
absolutely necessary, to prevent such eameaslawents as was likely m
gain upon every establishment. The Tommy Hood • theld not,
without inconveniencing his XI • . enseenter'ill'ae detail of the
expenses of the King's Tbs. siptsiesent-mot, succeed,
but it was a hasardous cats. fife would mitre his °Onion oe the
hen relating to the Board of Werke Pig loft este the-dell list;
sad on other points, till a fumes epaa ally Thebes: Inaba then
proceeded to animadvert on the Pene*llibite and snide/ to the esr
pre lion of the Chancellor of the Masbate^ wiles be gave* is lie
opinion that the List would be reamed WAILb hr ( Mr. tioulliste)
did not think the means to be adopted prondesially such result. The
point Government did not mean to distuoirKle power of the (lase; to
grant pensions to the usual amount pm ammbee I bat he confined lie
prerogative to the seventy-four seniors at the Pension Liu o a
these were all persons far advanced in yews,. and the King'
the power to fill up every vacancy; might Sate the petit
to replace them all with young men; coessitiently,-Itany reliefieir
to be expected from that source' it might only•be la the time of teethe
future Parliament, and most probably during time other Miele*
The arrangement merely transferred the burden freed the 0411'141st to
the Consolidated Fund. He did not mean to object lathe errangement
at present; but he was sure that to provide fee the oldies emit:
red in the present list they had to claim a vote for otheries-everysiesion,
that the system would only exist a year or two, and that it wee. not
studying the economy of expenditure. The Noble Laid had not geld
that any reduction in diplomatic establishment was cootomplated. He
(Mr. Goulburn) did not mean to differ with the Noble Lord so much
in detail as he did in principle. The Hon. Member concluded with an
eulogy on his Majesty, in reference to the allusion of Lord Althorp's
announcement of the Sovereign's rejection of an allowance fur the
Queen.
Lord ALTHORP rose to explain ; in the course of which he stated
that they had found that the duties of the auditor of the Civil List had
been performed by deputy ; and that they had consequently invested
the deputy with the head dace, and saved the salary of the prineipsl.
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. GOULBURN said a few words in reply ;'in which he Intl.
mated his opinion of the necessity of supporting the dignity of the
Crown. !le was well aware that to express different sentiments, and to
advocate retrenchment, was better calculated for popular acclamation ;
but he did not court that description of approbation.
Sir H. PARNELL approved of the portion of the expenditure that
bed been transferred from the Civil List, and was of opinion that every
item of expenditure ought to be brought before the House every session.
He would not at present give his opinion on the several classes, but he
Gould not refrain from expressing his disappointment that no reduction
had been made in the sakrths of the Household. He thought that
that there was great opportunity for abridgment in the salaries of the
Lard Chamberlain, the Master of the Horse, the Lord Steward, the
Master of the Robes, the Groom of the Stole, and some others, parti-
cularly when the country was in its present state; and he thought
that it argued that his 3lajesty's Ministers were deficient in the strict
principles of economy that the country required. He would support
the list being submitted to a committee.
Mr. HUME said that considering the numerous items which had been
added or taken away, it would be unfair as yet to pronounce decidedly
on any of the heads, or to give a general opinion on the present Civil
Lisi. He mnst may, however, that some of the heads had very much
exceeded his expectations, especially the fourth and fifth, the Royal
bounties and the pensions. Looking to the list of the receivers, there
was not one in fifty who had any connection with his :ilajesty. Now
where that connection did not exist he objected to any one shilling being
expended without being submitted annually to Parliament; he objected
to such • source of psnonsge and corruption. The noble lord spoke
of charitable grants. And made to whom ? To poor peers. Let all
those who could not support their dignity lay down that dignity. Let
them do like humbler individuals, go to their relatives, and not to the
public. Those individuals bad no legal claim, as the noble lord had
admitted ; they had no claim of service; their only claim was that of
charity. In his opinion the true charity was to relieve the public, and
the pour mar who could not pay the taxes. He naked ministers se act
up to their professions—he &died them not to ethnic of unfounded
claims, and to remember that a pension woe on an average, a gift of
twelve times its annual amount. He hoped ;hat ministers would re.
consider the subject. He would ask the Noble Lord of what advantage
It was to put the diplomatic, and other passim, on the Consolidated
Fend, instead of submitting them annually to t. It was by
keeping them out of sight that such e=prombad crept es us do.
. He would ask him also whether the revenues of the of
n stet were not to be laid before the house ? The sale bed
his colleagues had all agreed with him, on a km. istolott, that
the speech from the throne meant the surteneo at ell ohs revenues
of the Crown.

Lord ALTHORP said that it would be improper for the King to
be the first Sovereign to resign the Duchy of Lancaster. He had
indeed understood the speech in the same way as the bon. member.
But it was no less certain that it had not been meant to convey the
intimation.

Mr. MABERLY, in answer to an observation from the menibm
for Armagh said, the advantage in having the items in the consoli-
dated fund instead of the civil list was, that they were oho/ha under
the conuoul of Parliament. He hoped that many savings would be'
effected by the present system. By bringing forward the civil go. 1
vernmentv of Ireland and Scotland annually before parliament, the
noble lord had conferred another great benefit. With respect to the
rtrs, however, he hoped that a much larger sum might be laved.
present consolidation added much to the clearness and correctness
of the
Mr. G papersOU .
LBURN explained.
Mr. GUEST said, that he should move for an inquiry with respect
to the pensions.
Mr. ROBINSON approved of the separation of the Ambassadors'
and Judges' charges from the civil list. He lamented a great defi-
ciency with respect to the pensions, and hoped that, after the facts
which bad come out in the public papers, some inquiry would be made
into the subject during the sesaloa.
Mr. GORDON said, tbal no reduction whatever appeared to
him to have been made. He thought ;the Noble Lord bad mys.
tilled the house, and that the distinction made between putting the
items in the consolidated fund and putting them in the civil list was a
distinction without a difference. It was not an occasional, but en sei-
smal revision that was required. With respect to the Duchy of Lan.
state:, he had understood from the tone used by the present ministers on
a fanner occasion that if they had the power they would have called
upon the sovereign to resign those revenues. With respect to the
general statement of that evening he hoped that the noble lewd would
reconsider It. It would be received with much sorrow by the country.
Mr. HUNT said he was convinced the people who bad to pay the
same would feel greatly disappointed at what tell from the Chancellor
of the Ezebequer. lie felt gnat disappointment himself, and be was
certain the people would rot feel less. By the people, he meant those
who paid the taxes--the industrious—the laborious—the useful classes
oesociety t—not the drones who lived in idleness sod luxury on the la-
bour of others, and contributed nothing themselves to the common stock.
He had looked to the Chancellor of the Exchequer with hope and con-
fidence, that be would sympathise with the suSeings of the people,'
end alleviate their bijrthens. The Noble Lord certainly had not mysti
fled—he was agreat deal too clesr.—(A laugh.) Oat of that House he
had often thought that it was the object of the Chancellor of the Ex.
1
chequer to mystify; but Le gave the present NU credit for having east
away mystification, and spoken with perfect closeness. He hoped he
had not given offence, which it certainly was not his intention to do.—
Having been returned by a body of the people in an extraordinary man.
nor, without solicitation—he might say without Ws knowledge--he had
been amongst them, and had made himself acquainted with their state,
sod with their feelings, and knew that they would be greatly dissatistled
with the proposition of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. From all
that had been said by the present Chancellor of the Exchequer and the
late one, it might be thought that there was no people that had
aLy interest in the subject—that it was a mere question between the
Crown and that House, how much mosey the members should pay
out of their own pockets to the Ries for his expenses. He felt
proud of the Lig, who chewed that he felt for the sufferings of
his people; and whatever forbearance the people were to receive, it
was evident they owed it to his Majesty, and that they had nothing to
Men from his ministers. The Chancellor of the Exchequer said, the
people could receive no relief host any reduction in the Civil List. In
1100.11 name, for what were the late ministers turned out T--( Loud cries
of hear from the opposition) They wore turned out bemuse they would
not relieve the people by reducing the Civil Lim He knew bow unable
the people wore to bear their present bonbons. If them who proposed
il=
to continue them had gone into their daw and uses their sufferings,
they would not be surprised at the con that had taken place.
He yesterday presented a petition hem Manama& weavers, who
earned, on an average, but es. hi. a week foe the supple' of themselves
and families. He had gone amongst theme wawa's...des owe highest
wages which it was possible for them to earn was Gingham, a wash.
lie bad visited their miserable dwellings, sod witnessed their wain.
fogs. They bad woddasio the world bat mama broth in the waning,
potatoes he Maar, EN °mimed broth for stww. They snored him
it was fine years oboe there had been a slag k new pinata in their
dwelling; whatever widii they were able to procure was bat eld
clothing; they were; in Out, bowed with rap, and were in such a
state as to be uniteo gn to their perish church, which, in
el
they were quite tiliamed•to twirl aadthis IMO the state to whisk
people was Mooed by those who professed to be the advocates of
religion and morals. They were not able to bay soap far the
purposes et deaulbresy but edited in a wretched, mai of Ilk and
atsivadon. When be rtolltbsted ditc people roducKto dab state.ad

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ibis auseseheseepay lease en on bob, es seas, ad
illt madam hen.
saasee
lbent, theeddb In the feemise list,
never have appliered ; sod that it wield be ilrooow.a......i...._holioULPqatitsl° Slime web distress, thee to
;11d7iis, . d Allies . k'IEIL ..
Alatirojilis"rgt, Xis was
mid
bk" Smith. is beau
ses .
114 ail. W herbed*
MililithrMs ' " - ":% ' *le
, . Mar* b ..O bob et sITIFbe
sit iltilS tag ' ' dl! , * 4°ll.._:=l"llNue/teielitlenis.. that it
hid driven the 'tropic he ' . irk i-g il! to.ollrootioomo.
had never hold *fididtc4,oe.or!i,.nooo *Wok roc
be mimes&
to boy is it; • (H‘s.) 'Dot lot Mead be'
shtlo4 alwap conduct himself
respectfully tweeds the-Simi, es he A*fie warn be permitted toad.
mane the lightest the yeelple. (Imad clime " Hear, haw.") He
hoped the he we prompt • addities,,,_ . ,to his Modesty far a state.
ment of the revenue fish, Dolby of der. Be obe dis ems.
try should know the ' =oust et Ws' Majesty's Income, sag ha was
confident kb Majesty did not wish for my.anweelosentMm bis penl&
The Kieg Weise justly ?Molar, that bit thing Ministers h&j to de.
must he at their own door, and riot at Ills Majesty's. The Chassoller
of the liathembr hid given sped of Ibis, when be metal that the
King refused 110,0 p 1. for the Queen's outfit, width blialmers
be Mould twelve, rsthr bovieg made no reduction I. the dell=
certainly to proof thOltibiat *name their own salaries. illesemens.
bet eg when 'd massage Was'east down to the House. In of
i the greit betimes to the 'price of • ail the necessaries of Is ho.
came to raise the allemeoces M the laver* members el the
,royal lam y, tbe Wades of ininisteis, and the judges, there was a*
,objectioe mode to it, sad an iremincressed. Had he been b the babe
lie Wilda have reminded than of 'iliat they vpeared to ham begestes,
s that the anaemia of life were also incise* in pries en the people
out of whose pockets the aseney,to pay sbe lammed allow's= sad
wearies wm to be take's: as bop the members of that beam would
not let It go firth to the piddle that the Waimea wield. make. we re-
duction of expect •' that, lab Slts last isinistakthey weak's* . over
the subject with perfect ealmmes. while the people were saw* such
distress as caused viabilities el the law. (Hear,) He wouldastlat
in Wiltshire, abbe wedelns bed extended mercy to the .
people, they bed messed tianquilllty ; but where the
taken plane, the Mew wise adil going on. He was convinced that
would do INN to MIAMI ewe. than punishment, and would shortly
move ea aghast to his liejemy he • general amnesty. (dome members
hers cried inintien.) 13e should not take up the time of the bones;
b_t_saould be aimed of himself. if seat, as be was, by a suffering
be did pm sake known their disuses, and appeal en their be-
U7eie the keno of minimum, and of the home ; and be hoped minis.
tan would -der the prepeekim they_ bad now made.
Sir ROGER 01111SLKY mid, the King of this country should
possess the means of rewarding his servants, and of maintaining. that
splendour of external •ppearance which was necessary to the misuses
of monarchy. He loved liberty, but he also loved monarchy, and would
give to it all that was necessary for its dignity and splendour. The
Monarch was the just and constitutional dispenser of honours and
hum, and should have the means at his disposal of exercising his
royal prerogative.
' Sir JAMES GRAHAM said, the Hon. Member foe Cricklade
(Mr. Goatee) had accused the Chancellor of the Exchequer of mysti-
fying his statement, while the Hoo. Member for Preston said it was too
eWt• r. The Hon. Member for Cricklade appeared to suppose that Mi-
misters had changed some of their opinions along with their seats in that
House; he hoped his Hon. Vrieod would exercise a little forbearance,
and he wools!, probably, be satisfied that no such change had taken
place. The Hon. Member for Preston he felt bound to treat with to.
spect, for he had treated the House with respect. The Honouratibl
Gentleman advised Ministers to reconsider the proposition made
_by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. He must appeal to all lib
colleagues that they had given the subject the greatest
salon, and be could not bold out any hops of their beingelre;.
change the proposition submitted by his noble friend. The has bum
her for Preston bad said, all that was gracious in the pegailitim pees
ceded from the sovereign. He perfectly agreed in that statement; all
that was gracious did proceed from the sovereign ; sod all that was db..
approved of was the act of ministers; but he thought they maid have
betrayed their bust if they had advised a reduction in the exposes of
the Sovereign—it was ascertained that it must cause a change M ige,
Majesty's manner of living. His Majesty lived in the eye et his
people—he lived generously end- hospitably, and it was his sinew
opinion that the people of England did not desire to diminish his ems
jetty's comforts. Ministers certainly were willing to proposals *sham
the customary outfit for the Queen, but his Majesty refusal to all le.
He suppressed the feelings of the man and of the husband, and I* Map
as a king for his people, and said it should not be dose—that *mph he
amount could scarcely be felt by the people, it would at least Wheet Eat
be sympathised with their sufferings, and was anxious to do whemeat
was in his power to alleviate their burthens—(Hear.) The maw if
the Duchy of Lancaster, which the King held by inheritance, was not
a part of the revenue of the mown; and they might, is his own
case as well say, that before they would mettle the , amenat elf
his salary be should make a mans of the value et hie
estate. The civil list was see handed as a revenue for a kbg who
had no other revenue ; but as ea addlibe to the other income whhi,hie
Majesty possessed. It was suppled that Ministers had made we as.
&salon in the pension list. Hriewald smelled that they had peered
a reduction which would amount so male dam sne.hall. The limp.
shim of the late Gemenseent ow the the pain Hat amid he mad.
aged at the meant of 14hillIithe penile' of kb adds hind
was, that 12,000 L of this anomie eileedil le pissed on the emeedidased
fund, and that as they fell in the
!mamaslabil eleaddiajoy the hemelk.(llser.)
The honourable amber he hed ad what dillumme theme
was between the Olds sable Mei Ned thee etielenelli.
°hwy. The late mr a remesmat civil h AIL at et M
and said it should our= by a osemalmee i it le bible
friend proposed a Civil Bit el Ism Asa five hundred diellimirsohe
to be submitted to peellemeat. Hie mile Maid also parsed to lay
the estimates of diplemede expeditors before pediment may year
foe their approval or esesection. With respect to the pesnis:llS
pension list, they had been granted on the undessimalleg tine
should be continued foe the lives of the parties, nodes that
lag settlements had bees made and debts incurred, which amid imaii
many to suffer as well as the individual, if they were now cat ea lb
hoped parliament would not intim such an extent el eaSeriag. is
had bees said that ministers wear endangering their pepabeity. (Heat,
hem, hear.) He valued the good opinion of his fellow dd.
lens high! _it would be always dear to him--end he did sot think be
should forfeit it by a faithful die •ge of his duty. (!liar.) WI&
be mend the Crown he would serve It falthfally, and wealiasver coop
eel the King to take any step inconsistent with the lemearef the thews
or the welfare of the people. Before three short weeks Amid elapse, hie
Noble Friend, the Paymaster of the Forces, would submit to the lime
a proposition for an Wsmsl reform in the reprementagoa of the people*
which would prove that Ministers retained all their spice fur
rights, and were determined to act on the principles they had
when out of office. His conscience told him that they bad
and he entreated the people to wait till they had the mame etpaillit,
the conduct of Government. If he thought the inesiuma
inconsistent with the principles they mimed, nothing • au* amid
induce him to give such MalellfeS h sappers. (Hear, Imo)
Mr. CALCRAFT said he thought the I/aliments espesamel by the
right hon. baronet did him honour, and damned the appesimeiim of all
who wished well to the state. The pappedies beim& htwaid by the
noble lord, was the same that be ( Wr..Gilmema) hatagepated on the
other side of the house. The noble lord bad 'hewn elearli that be could
make no reduction in the civil list, foe which be (Mr. Cakenhj aid his
colleagues were obliged to leave their places. (Hear.) The iligla hew
baronet seemed to think then woo an bcomistency la the beer Mbar
foe Cricklade, tying the mide bed's steiresent was utyldifiek ellir the
honourable member fur Pemba* earls, it was dear. /le height he
could explain the apparent leammimatey. The hem ameba he Atm.
toss saw that it was very dose that the meant of the civil ht.
was the same as that proposed by the late govesement. He felt, justly,
that the same weight would be bid ea his hinds in llanchesaer MI
Preston, that after six weeksmaseleation the new Ministry had mai a
saving of about 6,0001. a year is the exposes of the Sovereign. Tble
was what the ben. member fee Preston saw wee very dear; bit the
bon. member for Cricklade felt that the boo. lord bed very daddy
mystified the pension list. He bad thrown all the young lives ea the
consolidated fund; and he hod kindly taken all the old live. under his
own care on the civil list. If the present (rest was to continue, it was prm.
bible he would soon have some of thole pensions to dispose of, at all
events the Minister,itristhe arrangemme made, would have frequent Op
par unities of the ftwome edit Crown. (Hear, and • lattiihs),
It was said, that the late kliableu had refused to submit the items .a
the civil net to a select osemeittee. What they said was, that theft
was so precedent for ealmitdes dhe items of the civil list to a select 1
committee at the cosimmemmeeke 1 a rdp, and for this, be bad the
au amity of Mr. Fox; bet though hey had not proposed to submit
the estimates to a select committee, were they not to be discussed in a 1
committee of the whole House, where they would receive a public die-
ausion,which be thought much better than &disunion with closed domain
a select commliee? This he thought would be admitted by his has..
triastiorhe hod been the means of turning the late ministry out,and mama
sluing on the same side with them. He might well say to the
Ministry. 0' kill the next Paco yourself.' —(A great husgb.riiit
Lessm.ll.4.alLinfatry had adopted
(H the,
be estimates of the late =Amgen aag
them fee it.— awar.).--A Committee of the while
is tZ Va et•• i 1 times better deer the examination of thoestleastes theta e
icsamaksaa up stabs; but of whit use was_any Committee lithe mum,
edemas were Irrevocable, as said by the Right Hon. irssa.).„
I Were these Ministers, who wire to stead on the public oplalon te ail
the House of Commons that their estimates were irrevocable Nsl
(Hear, beer.) He was happy to me his ben. friends opposite in their
pees* situsaiin, and that they had adopted the estimates of the late
ministry.--/ lime, hear.)
Sir 3, diRAHAM, in explanation said, what he said wee, that mints-
welted Traisewed as mach conelderadoe is the presoak milatatee, dot
thereelld rot make any siteiatim Won they erne sttb 19 Par.
has ealahe semis at the imam was know;. • .

• ,t,4l:(n—i.; • . Ilik
; )`' Itb,
ie.' 4 i wise
• the
• '7lrCiliatilp
•1 t the noithrlad
lad
before been submitted fee the b
baying looked intn the expo