Star.
London, England, 1830-05-04 00:00:00

SUPPLY._

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the Order
of the Day for going into the Committee of Supply.
Mr. R. OORDt tN said that to persons unacquainted with the
mode of proceeding in the house, it would appear extraordinary in
what way the public money was to be extravagantly lavished. Any
casual observer of the disgust of some and the absence of many
members of that house, whenever a question of supply came on,
would find some difficulty in reconciling those circumstances with
the sympathy, with the interests of the people which some anions
admirers of the constitution were apt to attribute to the House of
Commons. The honourable member then complained of the tore
in which the exertions of his ben. friend the member for Aberdeen
I were spoken of. and proposed that the estimates should be referred
to a committee up stairs, instead of being considered in a com-
mittee of the whole house. He then complained of the item for
Public Works in the Miscellaneous Estimates, which he contended
could only be investigated in a Select Committee. In the same esti.
mate were the charges for Windsor, which at the present moment,
feeling would dictate the referring that subject to a Committee rather
than to discuss it in that house. But his Majesty's Ministers were
responsible for the outlay of money which been devoted to the
alterations of Windsor Castle. The sum first called for by Lord
Goderich was 300,0001. and they had now voted 800,0001. and
were called upon to vote an additionnal 100,0001. The original
sum was therefore trebled already, and he understood it was expect.
ed that 1,900,000 L would be required to complete the contemplated
works. (Hear, hear.) He thought, then, that this was a case in
which inquiry was necessary, and he would ask whether such an in-
quiry could now properly take place in a Committee of the whole
house. The next item which he thought called for investigation
was the vote for building churches in the West Indies. Then the
fees taken in the public offices was a subject upon which no satisfac-
tory explanation had ever been given. Six of the items in the fifth
paper related to the colonies, and therefore necessarily involved the
whole question of whether the colonies ought not to me made to pay
their own expenses. Amongst the rest was a charge for Sties Le-
one, respecting which be trusted that a full investigation would take
place. and that the Government would find itself strong ensw#
Tgive up the establishment If It were found to be sec Imp/epee OM
here was an item of 18,0061. for the Social for this ass et
the gospel in the colonies, and upon that object the bless amid
during the last sixteen no less a sum than MAIN. Ups all
these grounds he Bled upon the beau to appoint a ismiNes,....
The Irish miscellaneous estimates wen last yaw sent helms • select
committee, and why were not the linglieh mhsglisser selienstes
to be dish with is the anew row P When the ebisteimmble
votes IMMO a, be sisal moveilly pestpenement, with a view to

their being referred to a select eoeumnittee. Be called upon the
members in all parts of the house to remember that the eyes of their
constituerts were upon them. The honourable member for Clare
said, " Such of them as have constituents." This very ex.
cellcnt observation was extremely appropriate at a time when the
government found among its supportem such a large majority of
those who had no constituents, but were placed in the house by the
great borough proprietors. With the view of the subject which he
now took, he should not oppose the Speaker leaving the Chair.

Lord RANCLIFFE spoke in favour of economy and retrench.
ment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as the
proposition for a select committee was to be made upon the items,
he should reserve his opinion until they were before the house.
Lord ALTHOItP observed with regard to public works, that if
they were necessary they ought to be carried through, and not left
incomplete. It would be therefore well to refer estimates of that
nature toa committee, and to suffer others to proceed without delay
or impediment.
Sir J. NEWPORT said that some works were commenced, and
engagements entered into, betbre any communication whatever was
made to that house. _ _

Mr. O'CONNELL begged to add for the consideration of the
house, that while three millions and a half of taxes were to be re-
duced in England this year, in Ireland taxation was cobs increased.
It therefore became the house to examine with the strictest care
these estimates, which formed too large a share of the taxation
which was to be so imposed.
Mr. HUbfE contended that all the establishments, civil and mi-
litary, were upon altogether too large a scale, and that the expense
of the works in Canada and at Sheerness was money wholly thrown
sway. The house ought to take example by America, and refer
all questions of public expenditure to Select Committees. There
ought to be sixteen or twenty Committees appointed, instead of
submitting all the various branches of expenditure to a Commit.
tee of Supply.—(Hear.)--Ile despaired of the public money be-
ing properly looked after, until the landed interest, who ruled
that house, could be brought to pay more attention to such
matters. Ile hoped that those who sent county members there
would remember the manner in which they had attended to and voted
upon matters of finance. He hoped there would be an election very
soon.(•' Order !") The hon. member who called him to order
was disorderly. lie had a tight to calculate upon an election when
a parliament had sat five ►essions, six being its average duration.
The country was indebted to the ministers for any saving that was
effected, but to the house the people owed nothing.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY always objected to any general reference of
the public estimates to a select committee, upon constitutional
grounds. He would not consent, by appointing a select committee,
to take from the ministers of the crown the responsibility which the
constitution imposed upon them.
Col. DAVIES insisted that the responsibility of Ministers was
yes etpreterea nihil, when they saw them continually committing
acts which deserved impeachment.
The House then went into Committee.

Mr. DA WSON, in rising to bring the miscellaneous estimates
before the house, said he should first make a few observations upon
what had fallen from his honourable friend opposite. He abjured
the imputation which had been' thrown out by his honourable
friend the Member for Cricklade, that of his sneering at the
laborious and able exertions of the honourable member for Abet-
decn. He had no such feeling as that which had been imputed
to him, aid to his hon. friends behind him. With respect to de-
legating the authority of the house to a Committee up stairs,
he thought no sufficient case had been made out. He denied that a
committee up stairs was or could be as efficient as the whole house.
There was not that responsibility attached to a committee up stairs that
there was to a proceeding of the whole house. The total amount of the
miscellaneous estimates for the present year was lower than for any
preceding year since 1824. Tite miscellaneous estimates for the
present year were lower by upwards of 300,0001. than they were for
the year 1829. They amounted for the present year to 1,935,0001.
His majesty's ministers were anxious to effect every possible bene.
Seial reduction, and they would not suffer any opportunity to
escape them. He concluded by moving that the sum of 32,5001.
be granted to defray the expense of public works and public build-
ings, and for furniture, upon account rendered by the Board of
Works.

Mr. GORDON contended that the way in which the public
works were carried on ought to be examined into. The question
ought to be referred to a committee up stain; and he referred to the
bon member for Dorsetshire to say whether he was net correct in
thinking that this vote ought, almost more than any other, to be
referred to a committee up stairs.
Mr. DAWSON said the government regretted that so much
money had been spent upon the subject of the vote before the com-
mittee as had been, and declared it to be the intention of government
to pay especial attention to the subject in future. This being the
case, he hoped it would not be thought necessary to refer the ques-
tion to a committee up stairs.
Mr. HOBHOUSE contended that it was unconstitutional and
even monstrous to suppose the government was to have the whole
sad undisturbed controul of the public buildings. He should
vote with his honourable friend (Mr. Gordon) if he went to a
division. He wished to know of the noble lord (Lowther),
whether or not it was not understood that an access to Saint
James's-park at the point he had mentioned on a previous even-
ing was to be granted to the public ? But whether there had
been such an understanding or not, had not the public a tight to
demand such access ? (hear, hear.) A hint ought to be suffi-
cient. He admitted that the Parks were in sotne manure to exalt
the dignity of the Royal Palace, but they were also for the conve-
nience and the salubrity of the public. Nothing could be more
absurd than the al -teatime which had been made at the end of
Regent-street, near the Park. Thousands of cart loads of dirt had
been piled, and the old columns had been thrown into a newly
made ditch. If the alterations desired were not acceded to, he
should certainly move an address to the crown upon the subject.
Mr. GORDON wished the vote to be postponed.
The CHAIRMAN said that the vote could not be postponed
without the concurrence of both sides of the committee.

Mr. HUME, with all due reference to the Chairman, held a dif-
ferent opinion.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT contended that the vote ought to be
postponed. Preambles of Acts of Parliament were postponed. He
wished for further information upon the subject before be gave a vote
upon it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER maintained his
opinion as to the course the house usually adopted. With respect to
the vote itself, he contended that the Government had made every
practicable reduction in it, and was anxious, upon all future occa-
sions, to pursue &similar course. The alterations which the hon. mem.
her for Cricklade complained of were real benefits to the public, and
had been made with the best possible intentions. The repair of the
Chapel at Whitehall was a new item, but the building had been in a
state of dangerous decay, and the Government thought them.
selves justified in making the outlay which they had made. With
respect to the Parks, he contended that the alterations made in them
had been for the most part made for the public, and there was no in.
disposition on the part of Government to do every thing which could
be done for the recreation of the public. And really if Government
did not upon one occasion accede to the .wishes of hon. members,
they ought not to be so ready to complain, as the bon. member for
Westminster bad himself shewn.

Mr. GORDON said, if the public had recreation in the Parks,
they bad a right to it ; their money had supported the Parks. He
proposed that the resolution be postponed, with a view of its being
referred to a select committee.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT referred to his evidence before the com-
mittee upon Public Works, to show that he had never promised
that the opening alluded to by Mr. Hobhouse should be made.
He certainly had no desire to oppose such an opening, but he
bad no power upon the subject. The plan wu formed at the
Treasury, and only sent to the Office of the Woods and Forests
for execution. He felt that the public had a tight to every
possible accommodation and he had always been anxious give
the public every ennvenience be could.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said it was a stipulation in the leases that
there should be no mange, either public or private, into the park
from the part in question. He, as a leaseholder in the part in
question, bad no objection to the desired opening, but there were
circumstances over which he could have no control which ob-
structed it.

Mr. HUME recommended, upon the opinion of the Finance
Committee, that the vote be referred to a select committee. It was
said a select committee was not as good a place for entertaining the
subject as the whole house; but he would ask if ever members had
been seen asleep in the Finance Committee P—(A laugh.)
Mr. PROTHEROE wished to see the items respecting the ex.
penditure upon the Record Office specified.
Load MILTON contended that the Parks were the property of
the public, and he surmised from what he had heard, that the opi-
nions of the Chancellor of the Exchequer were better suited to the
dynasty of times gone by than to the era of the House of Brunswick.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained.
Lord MILTON explained.
Mr. HOBHOUBE did not go by the plans.but by the works
themselves, which were now to be seen, and were filled up with dis-
gusting filth. If there were a majority for the postponement the
pubs would be admitted to the Park as they wished.
TllSpUetf was then cleared, and the house divided, when there
For the resolution
For the postponement
Majority for the resolution
7,0001. was then voted for Portpatrick Harbour, 8,0001. fcr the
works in Donagitadee Harbour, and 90,0001. for ingston Harbour.
* WINDSOR CAITLIt.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved that the
sum of 100,0001. be grimed to his inafeety, to defray the expense
of Improvement in Windsor Castle. .

Mr. R. GORDON objected to the grant, on the ground 0-I,t
the original estimate of 300,0001. had been increased by denuo.lu,
at several periods to the amount of 000,0001. Ile thought boo-
candour was due from the right hon. gentleman, and that tf•
house should be informed what sum would be necessary to cot:
plete the works. A committee might be appointed to ascertain 11.•
real amount. The hon. member concluded by moving as an amend.
mcnt, that the aunt of 100.00011 be voted on account.

Mr. O'CONNELL supported the amendment. The Chancel,,,
of the Exchequer had lately imposed a heavy burthen upon tlr
people of Ireland in the shape of taxation, and it was the duty
Irish members to vote against the proposed grant.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not suffer
the question to be put, without stating the circumstancea under
which lie considered at right to propose the estimate. The ho:
gentleman had brought forward the whole expenditure upon tie
work at Windsor Castle, from the time it was first undertaken...
He was not personally responsible for the undertaking, but did not
feel any reluctance to share the responsibility for the intention t
make that splendid building a fit residence for the Kings of Eng.
land. The undertaking was popular with the country ; he Ce'.
lieved the people anxiously desired that the King should reside
in the ancient place of his ancestors. They rejoiced that it wee
to be put in a state of repair, which made it fit for the 'Monarel
of the country. He knew that the expence originally caleulateii
by Lord Goderich had been exceeded, but the cause had been
explained to the Commissioners. The house must be aware o
the difficulty of finding the exact amount of expense in a work
so extensive. The architect repairing an old building could not un.
dentikc to say dilapidated parts might not fall. Ancient delayed
walls had been taken down, and consequently there had been an
creased expence. The right lion. gent. admitted he had stated on a
former occasion that the work would require only 700,000 L but 1.
was a task of the greatest difficulty to decide whether the original
repairs should be left unfinished or apply to Parliament for more
money. Ilia hope was that Parliament would not withhold the
means of making it a fit Palace fur the Sovereign. It must be oh.
vious that a building so large as Windsor Castle must incur IPA ex.
pence beyond the original estimate. He was sure the country did
not grudge the expence, and lie could not think the House of Cum.
mons would withhold the means of finishing that splendid edifice.
Mr. BROUGHAM could not avoid saying, with regard to the
estimate, that he should vote for the amendment of his hon. friend.
If it were fairly put to hint—shall Windsor Castle be completed of
atop where it is, he might pause, but that was not the question.
They had to consider whether 100,0001. was to be added to the
800,0001. before they received an assurance that 100,0001. would
complete the work. He was called on to vote that sum without a
hope that it would be sufficient. Next year there might be the san:e
appeal to parliament. It would probably be asked, Will you suffer
that splendid edifice to remain unfinished for want of 100,000 more,
He thought the right honourable gentleman had not done justice to
the country on the subject. He admitted that the measure was po.
pular when the expense was 700,0001. but It was not popular alter
the expense incurred was 1)00,0001. It was desirable to have Wind.
sot Castle, connected as it was with so many events honourable to
the country, enlarged, but the Palace in St. James's Park was also
building. The expense of' both amounted to 1,400,0001., and in
the present state of distress in the country, he could not avoid, with
all his respect for the Monarchy, voting for the amendment of hie
hon. friend.

Sir J. SEBRIGIIT opposed the motion. If he did not set his
face against an extravagant expenditure of the public money, his
constituents would have just ground to complain that he negleited
his duty.
Mr. PALMER thought the house ought to have an estimate o:
the whole expense likely to be incurred before they voted the pro.
posed rum.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY begged the committee would recollect
that the vote proposed did not come upon them by surprise.
It was an additional sum for additional work recommended b)
the Commissioners. When the architect came to a certain point,
it was found that new works in St. George's Hall and the awe
apartments were absolutely necessary. These works were com-
menced, and when it was found that additional expense had bee::
brought on by unavoidable circumstances, the house surely would
not feel disposed to stop the means of completing the improvements.
Mr. HOBlit /USE said, his hon. and learned friend the men:.
bee for Inaresborough, had been answered by his hon. friend the
commiuioner for these works, but no pledge was given that
further expense would not be incurred. It might be hard for
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to determine what might be
the total expense of such a work, but the right hon. gentlern:,..
would agree to the amendment, he would find the difficulty re.
moved. A committee might ascertain what the expense would bz.
The people of England certainly took an interest in the repairs o:
Windsor Castle whilst the expense was moderate, but they could
have no desire to see unlimited expense incurred.
Lord SANDON, on this occasion, approved of that which ha-'
been done to provide accommodation and convenienee for the S.
reign. The work that remained to be done would add to the
dour of the palace, and benefit the public. The noble lord did not
see why they should not vote, from time to time, the means of
bringing the building to a condition worthy the Monarchy.
Sir T. ACLAND opposed the grant of 100,0001. He was no:
one who withheld a liberal expenditure for the restoration of Wind-
sor Castle, and if told the sum necessary to complete the improve-
ments, would not hesitate to vote the amount, but they had nc.
estimate; and when they saw the original estimate increased tt
900,0001. be felt himself called upon by a sense of duty to support
the amendment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said there were
circumstances at that moment which made the discussion unplea.
sant, and be felt anxious that the house should have en estimatc
before them. (bear, hear, hear.) The right honourable gentle-
man thought he should not do wrong if he consented to a
postponement of the estimate, for the purpose of ascertaining what
might be the estimated expense. He did so from the desire to pre-
vent a painful discussion, and to prove that the rum he had pro.
posed to the Committee was justified. He should therefore with.
draw the vote, for the purpose of ascertaining what would be tli
whole expense to which the country might be liable for the comp!:-
tion of the work.

Mr. BROUGHAM then suggested that, the rote being with-
drawn, his honourable friend might withdraw his amendment.
After a few words from Mr. H. GURNEY, Mr. DwwsoN't•
amendment was withdrawn.

On the motion that the sum of 6,0001. be granted in aid of the
expenses for erecting churches in the West Indies, Mr. Hunt op.
posed the vote, and moved to adjourn the discussion.
Sir A. GRANT consequently reported progress, and the hour:
resumed. LIBIL.

Lord MORPETH postponed to the 18th of May his motion re.
lathe to the law of Libel.

Mr. HUME moved for leave to bring in a bill to prevent the
necessity of renewing commissions, civil or military, on the demise
of the crown. His object was to save the expense of fees on the re.
newel of commissions.
The CHANCELLOR Of the EICHEQVER and the ATTORNEY.
GENERAL suggested that there were motives of delicacy which they
hoped would induce the bon. member not to press his motion a:
present.
Mr. O'Courstr. and Mr. liVastaurrow supported the motion.
The Gallery was cleared for a division, and there not being forty
members present, the house adjourned at Two o'Clock until to.
morrow—this day.)