Star.
London, England, 1825-02-05 00:00:00

Hanover. Nothing short of this could give that Menai to Jae Go-,
vernment which, under whatever form, was essential to support it ;
and if such had been the advancement of general knowledge and
education, that this concession bad been deemed necessary to the
slaves of a despotic government, to whom the freedom of the press,
the ooly real liberty, was still unknown, how much more necessary
to that people who, in the establishment of their liberties, beheaded
one King, dethroned another, and set up a third, to the exclush.n of
the legitimate heir to the Crown, whom the voice of the people
declared to hive forfeited his right? and unless Ministers could
make up their minds to this measure, which, if not conceded would
eventually be forced upon them, they bad better at once drop the
curtain upon the farce they had so long been playing in that House,
and either shut its doors, or at least march those out of it who dared
impeach their imoduct, as the Deputy Manuel was marched out of
libe MIA amber.
SirJ. NEWPORT most oppose some of the measures
that were alluded to in the Speech, and must object to
the Address as pledging the House to a specific line of
conduct, So far was the Catholic Association from
disturbing the peace, that it had contributed mainly to
the preservation of tranquillity. It ought to be known
when Ministers meant to bring forward measures that
so materially affected both England and Ireland, un-
less, indeed, it was intends d to propose measures for
Ireland that Ministers would not venture to propose for
this country. Should any Bill be founded on Papers,
such Papers ought to be laid on the table of the House.
The distinction that had been made between the Catholics
of Ireland arid the Catholic Association was unfounded.
In 1813, a motion had been made by the present Presi-
dent of the Board of Control, not then in office, a elative to
the Orange Lodges. The motion had been met by the
Order of the Day, and was subsequently withdrawn. It
was then observed by the Right Hon. Gentleman oppo-
site (Canning) that no one had defended those Associa-
tions, and a Noble Lord, now no more, observed, that the
discussion of that night would effectually put them down.
But laws were now called fur against them, as well as
against the Catholic Association. The laws, indeed,
might be equal, but would the execution of them be
equal also ?—(Loud cries of Hear, hear). Effectually to
remove discontents, you must previously remove their
causes—(Hear). All the concessions made to Ireland
had been made in times of great public danger. The
first of them had taken place when the combined fleets
of France and Spain were riding triumphantly in the
British Channel, and the second of them had taken
place in 1793. A Petition from the Catholics of Ire-
land that had in one year been rejected with scorn, was
on the very next received, and more concessions made
than had formerly been asked, because the power of
France rendered it dangerous to have disaffection at home. The
misgovernment of this country had produced the consolidation of
the Catholic population. The Hight lion. Baronet concluded by
observing,

" Liberavl animam meant r
As before the termination of the scene he would probably be no
more--(Loud and continued cheers).

Mr. Secretary PEEL hoped that he should not be ac-
cused of disrespect to the Right Honourable Baronet, if
he did not follow him through all the topics of his speech,
as so many other occasions would occur for delivering
his sentiments on the same topics. By voting for the
address, no man was pledged to approve of the mea-
sures afterwards to be brought forward by Ministers.
Those measures would be proposed by the Government
on its own responsibility. In the course of the night,
the Right Honourable Secretary for Ireland would pro-
bably give notice of those measures. They would be
founded on observation of the events which had taken

place in Ireland, and were not the consequence of sug-
gestions from any other quarter. Nothing that he had
heard from the other side of the House had changed his
opinion as to the necessity of submitting some specific
measure against the Catholic Association. He could
not believe that the warmest advocate for Emancipa-
__

Lion would uphold the proceedings of the Catholic As.
sociation. Every one who respected the administra-
tion of justice, and thought that it ought to be pule,
must believe that it was greatly endangered by the
principles and practice of the Association. Would the
House of Commons permit that Association to levy
taxes—to interfere in the execution of the laws, and to
institute prosecutions? Much had he beard about the
Constitutional Association, and of its having arrogated
the powers of the Attorney-General, and yet the same
persons who were so very earnest in their condemna-
tion of it, seemed to view with great indifference the
same arrogation of powers by the Catholic Association.
Every man who sets any value on the popular part of
the Constitution ought to protest against the assump-
tions of the Catholic Association. There were laws
against all public bodies representing the people. The
Convention had been put down by these laws, and
thdugh, through an evasion, this Association might
escape their letter, yet they ought not to pass un-
touched by some other more specific enactments,
He could not suppose it possible that this Association
received the approbation of the whole Catholic popu-
lation of Ireland. Surely they could not approve of
that Address *MO had been published, and which
called upon the people " by the hatred they bore to
Orangemen," to folldw a certain line of conduct. When
this Address was voted, a respectable Catholic Gentle-
man present implored them to expunge the passage, but ,
his proposition was almost unanimously rejected, and
the very words stood at this moment part of the Ad-
dress. He could not believe that the Roman Catholic
Laity and Ecclesiastics of IrelAnd entertained towards
their opponents and fellow-subjects feelings of such vin-
dictive hatred. He could not and would not believe

it. Ha had often heard it said that the efts of a few
were not to be confounded with those of a general body,
and now, when attempts were made so to confound
things, he could not but feel great surprite. the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham) in his
speech last night, had alluded to divisions in the Cabi.
net, and had said that some individuals would sooner sa-
crifice their opinions than give up their places, and that
they were ready to follow the House and the country
in whatever might appear to be the prevailing opinion.
He did not wish to speak of himself—EMr. BIM/WHAM
here said that he never meant to allude to Mr. Peel].—
He did not wish to separate himself from his colleagues.
As for the Lord Chancellor, in spite of all the imputa-
tions thrown upon him, he would go down to posterity
as the most consistent politician that ever held the
Great Seal —(Cheers). The whole tenour of the Noble
Lord's life contradicted the charges of the Honourable
And Learned Gentleman. For himself he should take
every opportunity of expressing his opinions on this
question, and he trusted the Learned Gentleman would
give him credit for sincerity—(Hear, hear, from Mr.
Brougham). The Right Honourable Baronet had said
that he (Mr. Peel) and the Lord Chancellor were re-
sponsible for the Catholic Association, and that they
had always taunted the Catholics. He was not
aware of ever having done so, and had endeavoured
to support his opinions by facts and fair arguments.—
So should he now call upon Parliament to pat down
the Catholic Association, which was engendering strife,
and exasperating the people of Ireland. He rejected

rt-e aihillon of are gonoirable Member or *estiiiniter (Lcr.
Hobhouse), who said that if the Association were put down by
law, It would be necessary for the execution of those laws, to re-
son to military force. He had too good an opinion of the Ca-
tholics of Ireland to believe this, for they would render obedience
to the laws without the interference of military power. Other oc-
casions would arise, to deliver himself at greater length upon this
subject,-and he would trouble the House when they occurred.
Sir J. NEWPORT explained.
Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON said, that the Catholic
Association ought not to be regarded as the repre-
sentative of the Catholic Body of Ireland—( Hear.)—
It was the representative of the feelings and interests ols
the population, but not of the population itself. After
the beautiful speech of the Right Honourable Baronet
—(Cheers)—who had been for many years the cliam-
i pion of Ireland—(Hear, hear)—he would not say m
on this subject, but begged to be understood as adopt-
ing all the sentiments which had fallen from the Right
Honourable Baronet. It was painful to him to dissent
from the Address, which was generally regarded as
complimentary to the Throne, but he should do great
violence to his own feelings if he suffered the AdJre.s
to be voted, without entering his protest against it.—
Ministers had put into the Speech that which was not
true ; they wieled to register, under the authority 01
both Houses of Parliament, a libel against the Catholics
of Ireland—( Hear )—All the valuable parts of our
Constitution were gained by Associations similar to the
Catholic Association, and this he challe-iged the Right
Honourable Gentleman to deny if lie dated. It was
said the Association created alarm. With whom?

Why, amongst the Honourable Gentlemen oppo-ite,l
and the faction which they countenanced in frelmd,
and which lived upon the disturhanee of the country.
So long as Mr. O'Connell, and other respectable Gen-
tlemen, continue to trumpet forth the wrongs id the
Catholics, just so long would they clone alarm in the
breasts of their oppressors. lie deplored anything in
the speeches of that Body which rave just gmund of
offence to any one, as he had always said, nothing
could do the Catholic cause harm but the Catholics

themselves. If they continued steadily to proclaim
their pieteece, the question would speedily be carried,
and every disability, insult, and injury, would be ef•
faced from the Statute Book. Until this, there eould be
no securitylor the institutions of the country. He pro-
tested against this declaration of war against Ireland, and he would
continue to denounce it from his seat in Parliment at every peril--
(Hear.)—The system pursued towards Ireland, ever since the
Union, bad been partial and oppressive; he had constantly called
the attention of Ministers to it, but in vain, until very recently.
Ile hoped it might continue to improve, and ended with expressing
his dissent from the Address.

Sir THOMAS LETHBRIDGE said, that be re-
garded the question of Ireland with great anxiety. He
thought, for the sake of Ireland and the Catholics
themselves, that the Catholic Association ought to be
put down by law. He thanked Ministers for intimating
such an intention ; and if they had not done so, the
House ought to bate originated such a measure itself.
He had been surprised to hear any Gentleman attempt
to excuse the acts of the Association, for nothing could
be mote inconsistent and unsatisfa:tory than these at-
tempts: One Gentleman said it was the representation
of the whole Catholic population of Ireland ; another
said it was not; another that it was the representative
of all the Catholics in the Empire. He had read of
the English Catholics making common cause with the
Associati ,n, and thus identified, they must be regarded
as one. The Honourable Member for Cork (Mr. Hat-

chinson) said they were the representatives, not of the
population, but only of the feelings and interests of the
population. This was a distinction so refined, that he could not
understand it: it was, in fact, a Catholic Parliament; now one
Parliament was quite as much as the British Constitution content-
plated—(Cbeers and laughter)--and he hoped the House would not
tolerate the existence of another Parliament—( Hear.)

Lord NUGENT began by observing that the Righ:
Hon. Secretary of State (Mr. Peel) had been very un-
fortunate in his parallel, or ratter his attempted pa-
rallel, between the Catholic and Constitutional Asso-
ciation. He had taunted that side of the House as
having imputed illegality to the Constitutional Asso-
ciation, and asked why they contended for the legality
of the Catholic Association? Did not the Right Hon.
Gentleman perceive that this weapon had a double
edge? If the Opposition were so inconsistent as to
condemn the one and support the other, might it not
be replied, Why did not Ministers, now so anxious to
put down the Catholic Association, put down, for the
same reasons, the Constitutional Association? (Hear,
hear!) But they never interfered with the proceedings
of the Constitutional Association. In no instance whore
a prosecution was commenced by that body, was the
Attorney-General ordered to enter a noli prosequi, and
when a bill of indictment was found against them, a
•erdict of acquittal was entered by order of the Judge.
If such Societies were illegal, why was the House to
be called on now to pass new laws to suppress them ?
Let them be prosecuted in the regular way. With re-
spect to the union of feeling between the English and
Lash Catholics, it was peifectly true. He was autho-
rised to say that they agreed in feeling and spirit with
the Catholics of Ireland, and concurred with them in
their policy. He was instructed that he should have
to present a Petition shortly from the Catholics of Great
Britain, with nearly three times as many signatures as
any one from the same body had ever had before. This
proved that the Catholics of Great Britain were not
deterred by any backwardness and time-serving, from
petitioning, not only for themselves, but for their suf-
fering brethren in Ireland. If they had not d. ne so,
he should have regretted it as evincing a want of sym-
pathy, a want of spirit, and a want of faith, with their
brethren in Ireland. (Hear).
Mr. Secretary PEEL explained, that he did not mean by the
word illegal, to express anything beyond the unconstitutionality
of the Ccrastitutiensi Association, because none of the Gentlemen
opposite had pronounced it to be clearly illegal.
Lord NUGENT explained.
Mr. DENMAN was glad that the debate had gene
on with such animation, and lie trusted that it a mea-
sure of contravention were adopted against the As•.ocia-
lion, that other Associations would experience the full
benefit of such a measure, according to the tenour of the
King's Speech. If the Association should turn out to
be contrary to law, why should the House legislate to
put it down ? He hoped the Ministers would not re-
sort to coercive measures, which usually began in cruelty
and ended in injustice. He hoped they would not put
it down by violence, merely because it was hostile to
the Government, which had never wagged a toagve
against the Bridge-street Association. No; that As-
sociation was encouraged and defended, although it
was an imperium in imperio—although it usurped
the authority of the Government, and violated the
spirit of the Constitution ; yet, becaut.e it playeJ the
game of." Power!" Power winked at its pa oceed-
ings. As for the Catholic Association of Ireland, he
could better defend their conduct than he could that
of that House—th•t former acted in self-Jefeace while
scandalously run down; but the latter were committing

. • •-• •
an outrage egrainit those to whom they denied
The House of Commons had said, that Catholic-Emah;
cipation must eventually be carried, but it was difficult
to lix the period when they would consent to its tacit).
tir'. They were then exposing themselves to all Other
Powers, who might attempt to practice on theii discon;
tent. It must pass but he would ask what bloodshed
might not iirtervene from dell-ring the reasonable
redress of heavy grievances ? The present discus-
sion might be 'compared to that which occurred at
the commencement of the American war; and he would
now predict that they were.about not to enter into a
similar war, but to bring America to their owr, doors.
When the Hon. Baronet said that he represented the
People of England, while throwing down the gauntlet
against the Association, he begged to remind him that
lie (Nlr. 1) I also knew something of the People of Eng-
land ; and to the iAnorant only could be ascribed such
sentiments as those he stated. With regard to the
measiiies to be brouyht forward, he could only sty,
that be would be at his post, and oppose thew in
etc' y stio.ie of their progress. One Metnber had said;
that 1:e should expect the proofs of that which had been
stated in tha..Addiess ; he, however, understood from
the II sri. Secretary that evening, that no proofs were
to be adduced ; and that without them the sword was
to be unsheathed and the scabbard thrown away ; but
.1 hope of conciliation should by possibility be enter;
rained lie trusted that the Member for Hertford
would n..t give his powerful support to the measures
against the Catholics, now that no proofs were to be ad-
d,ced ; at least no other than that Proclamation which
bad been made such use of, and which he entirely ap-
proved of, with the single exception of the adjuration
passage, which had been turned to such good account
on the preceding evening. They were to have no other
groundwork for their enactments than Newspaper re-
port, which the Honourable Gentleman, the Attorney-
General for Ireland, would tell them they should be
cautious of trusting to. Much had been said about the
interference of the Priesthood, although in this country
there were Societies for the Prosecution of Felons, and
other societies which were open to all classes of his
Majesty's subjects to become members of; and why
were Priests to be excluded from all rights of citizen-
ship ?—(Hear, hear). He had heard of the thunder on
the preceding evening, but here was Jupiter about to
use his thunder against the Catholics, without hearing
them in their defence. He (Mt. Denman) hoped there would be
so division on the Address ; but if there should be, he could not
eansckatiously approve of it. With respect to the Association, he
would say, that it was the least formidable mode of proceeding
.which the Catholics could have adopted ; and to check its progress
would have a peculiar tendency to aggravate their distresses, irritate
their feelings, and render the situation of the empire infinitely
enure precariuus—( Loud cheering).
Mr. It. MARTIN bore testimony to the sentiments
of the Catholics of Galway in particular, and of Ireland
generally, which were closely identified in feeling with
the Catholic Association. That Association was given
birth to almost entirely by the Chancellor of England.
The Catholics of Ireland could not but reprobate those
who had refused to do that for the loyal Catholics of
England which had been done for themselves, whose
loyalty was much more equivocal. They concluded
that the man who could act thus, would not hesitate,
if he dated, to re•enact the Popery Laws, and once
more deprive them of those privileges of which they
were Lhen happily in possession. Tile lion. Gentleman then con-
tendel that the Catholic Priesthood claimed no such power u that
of the remission of sins; their form of doing so was nearly the same
as that of the Church of England, and was, in common parlance, " If
you repent, I forgive you." lie trusted nu violent measures would
be resorted to against the Association.

Si: H. PAkNELL wished to give his testimony as
to the feelings of the Catholics of Ireland, and he c Auld
assure the House that they placed the most implicit
confidence in the Association ; the most perfect union
prevailed in order to support it, and the Catholic Nobi-
lity were large subscribers to its funds. The Hon. Se-
cretary for Foreign Affairs had rested his whole case
on the fact, that there was no identification beta een the
Catholic People and the Association; but such was not
the fact, and identified as they were, in reality, be hoped that Minis.
ters would beware of the extent to which they were driving matters
in that country. The Catholics hitherto had met not only with de-
nial, but a new mode was about to be adopted, and aggression was to
be added to their other grievances.
Mr. M. FITZGERALD (Knight of Kerry) had never
estimated highly the knowledge possessed by Ministers
with respect to Ireland, but in no former instance had
that ignorance been se gross as was at present displayed.
Great danger did certainly attach to the Catholic Asso-
ciation of Ireland, for if it was not in law a representa•
tion of the Catholics, it was in feeling. The adherence
to it by all classes was undivided, and it was therefore
pregnant with danger, for they were numerous, being
no less than six millions, and possessed feelings which
no honest Englishman could condemn—but he would
ask, was that danger to be increased by driving them
to desperation ? and yet such he feared would be the
case. On no occasion had he ever addressed that
House with such desponding feelings as at that moment,
understanding, as be did, that it was the intention of
Ministers to put down the Association at all hazards.
—Under these impressions he would be dishonest if he
suffered that night to pass without entering his protest
against that portion of the Address recommending sum-
mary measures against the Association. Much had
been said of the Catholic rent, which had been deno-
minated revenue, although the mighty sum of £9OOO
formed the extent of their funds. The Methodist confer-
ence collected sums to which that was a mere trifle; and
as to influence, they shewed the extent' to which it could
be exerted in the case of the Missionary Smith.—
He had heard with awe the close of the speech of his Honourable
Friend, (Sir J. Newport) who predicted that the projected mea-
sures would be regretted when he should be no more—a period
which that House and the country ulald have reason to regret;
and he fully coincided in that prediction, viewing the Catholic cause
henceforward as completely hopeless.
Mr. BROUGHAM rose for the purpose of correct-
ing a misapprehension which it seemed existed with
respect to what he had said on the preceding evening.
tie did not say, as he was supposed to have done, that
the Catholic Association assumed the representation of
the whole Catholic body, or indeed 4 any body but
themselves. He was perfectly aware that if they had
done so, they would have rendered themselves liable
to suffer the penalties of the Convention Act, the whole of which
subject had been fully discussed in 1811. Ile had purposely and
carefully qualified the tetras in which h- spoke of the Association,
end be said, as the fact was, that they virtually represented the
great body of the Catholic. of Ireland.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH begged to contradict most
explicitly the assertion of the Hon. Member for Kerry,
respecting the fund raked by the Methodist Conference.
Tne whole cf that was voluntarily subscribed. Tl.e
members of the Society were influenced by no com-
pulsion. There were many persons of the same sett
who did not subscribe. The Hon. Member must have
been very imperfectly informed on the subject on which
he had spoken, as appeared by his allusion to the case
of the Missionary Saab, as that individual did not