Star.
London, England, 1822-07-02 00:00:00

Navy
Ordnance
Miscellaneous -
Extra Expense in Ireland

Nrhieh the company hat
to 1,90004 which, wkh +
former rate of interest had
osakt the whole 81110trat to
miners were appointed on both .
matter ; those appointed on the tart
meat were Lord Lowther and Sir
and those on the part of the CI
Abeteremby. and an Hon. Friern.
also a Member of the House. The
afraid as ti: e settlement of the
differed as to the rate of interest ; -
disallowed, others denied by the.
:Commissioners /.
the Treasury, and the counter-claims by the Public
for monies advanced by the Accountant-General,
were dispUted by the Company. In a case of this
kind, which was a sort of negotiation between inde-
pendent States, both contending for their rights, it
was difficult to find an impartial umpire. Perhaps
Parliament itself might not be considered impartial
enough to decide upon such a question, and it was,
therefore, thought better to agree to a compromise,
the terms of. which should be eventually submitted
to its consideration as being the only tribunal before
which they could be laid. After much contention
upon points, which the papers would sufficiently ex-
plain, it was thought that fair justice would he done
to both parties, by allowing the Company 1,300,000/.
upon their claim of five millions—(A laugh). He
did not think that the Company were hardly dealt
with ; on the contrary, he believed that they them-
selves were perfectly satisfied with the result ; nor did
he see why Parliament ought to be dissatisfied with
it. The next consideration was, how the debt was
to be liquidated ? It would not be forgotten that in
1812, by the 52d Geo. HI. chap. 135, a loan to the
amount of 3,400,0001. had been made to the Company,.
which they were to repay by instalments paid into the
Bank of England. At the present time the' balance
remaining upon this loan amounted to 1,837,0001.
against which, if their debt of thirteen millions were
set off, and a payment of 537,0001. made, it would
be seen that their debt was defrayed, and that they
were discharged from every loan of 1812, which was
to be changed henceforth to the Consolidated Fund.
By the Act in question the Company were enabled
to free themselves from the debt at any time by pay-
ment into the Bank ; but it was thought better to ap-
ply the sum immediately to the public service, and
he had accordingly taken credit for it to the amount
of 537,0001. and by a Resolution of that House to
exonerate them from the loan in question. It could
not be denied that in consequence of this arrange-
ment a charge of 70,0001. a year, would come upon
the Consolidated Fund, yet no new Stock would be
created for it—(A laugh). Of the debt of 557,0001.,
due from the Company, 27,0001. had been paid, leav-
ing 530,000/. still due. The next item arose out of
an Act lately passed, which had not yet received the
Royal Assent ; he alluded to the Act for paying off
the Half-pay, a measure that would produce to the
revenue 2,450,0004 for the October and January
quarters. It would now be necessary for him to ex-
plain the state of the Unfunded Debt, as it stood on
the sth of January last.
The whole Unfunded Debt of Great Britain, by the
votes of last year, amounted to £49,000,000
Trish Treasury Bills - 1,000,000
Advance to Coml-'
lic Works

- -
for carrying on Pub-

368,330

To which actual amount of Unfunded Debt, if the
whole amount of Irish Exchequer Bills are
added, namely - -

- 1,105,181

The total would be - 2E31,473,511
This amount exceeded the sum of 29,000,0001. voted
by Parliament, and the reason was the unavoidable
falling off of the Sinking Fund loan, which was not
paid till July, although the public service required
an earlier disbursement ; therefore it was necessary to.
issue Exchequer Bills to make good the deficiency.
To this was to be added the increase which had taken
place on the Unfunded Debt since last year, for taking
in the Ordnance Debt, which would swell the total to
32,939,388/. and adding 3,100,0001. to make good
the deficiency in the Ways and Means of last year,
together with the sum for the repay ment of the 5 per
Cents. as well as the debt existing in the beginning
of this year, the total amount would be something
about 35,000,0001. so that the increase of the debt
over and above that of last year, instead of 500,0001.
would amount to 1,000,0001. that is, 1,000,0001. of
Exchequer Bills would this year be brought into the
market more than last, and the holders were to be
gradually repaid from the Sinking Fund. Having
thus laid before the Committee the amount of Supply
and Ways and Means, the actual income and expen-
diture of the year, it only remained for him to state
some of the items that constituted the revenue. The
Right Lion. Gentleman then referred to the various
items, as enumerated in the following Abstract of
the net produce of the Revenues of Great Britain and
Ireland, in the year ending January 5, 1822:
GREAT BRITAIN.
Customs (making the deduction for the Coast
Blockade)

9,135,102

Excise (deducting 2,550,0001. lost by the remission
of Malt, Salt, and Leather Duties) - 26,546,415
Stamps - - - - 6,108,640
Post Office - - - - 1,318,000
Assessed Taxes (deducting 500,0001. lost by the re-
mission of the Horse Tax) -
Land Tax - •
Miscellaneous -
Property Tax

6,256,811
- 1,263,274
223,430
- 34,234

Total Net Revenue of Great Britain, including
Property and War Duty on Malt - - 50,885,906
Deduct Receipt upon Property and War Duty
on Malt - 34,234

Total Net Revenue of Great Britain, exclusive' of
Property and War Duty on Malt I. 50,851,672
IRELAND.

Customs - - - -
Excise and Assessed Tale - - -
Stamps - - - - -
Post Office - . - - -
-
Miscellaneous - .. -

1,495,598
1,965,933
400,827
65,538
15.5,054

Total Net Revenue of Ireland

4.103,931

Total Net Revenue of Great Britain and Ireland,
including Property, and War Duty on Malt - 54,989,837
Deduct Recvipt upon Property and Wu Duty on
Malt - - - - • 34,134

Total Net Revenue of Great Britain u►d Ireland. ex-

elusive of Property, and War Duty on Malt - 54,955,603
—lt might be asked at the conclusion of the present
quarter, in what state the revenue was? By the ac-
counts made up to last Saturday it appeared very fa-
vourable, for the sum paid into the Exchequer for the
part of the quarter that had gone by, exceeded the
same period of last year by 622,0004—(Cheers),

. .

1,550,000
150,000
1,700,000
310,000

Greenwich Hospital, Out-Pensiiiners -

..

Interest on Exchequer Bills

16,615,000
1,200,000

17,815,000

REDUCTION OF DEBT.
Sinking Fund on Exchequer Bills X290,00n
To pay Holders of Five per Cents. 2,801,000
Deficiency of Ways and 'Means, 1821, 290,456
Total for Reduction of Debt - -

3,!M1,456

21,196,456

29,000,000
1,000,000
368,3.30

51,564,786
- 54,955,603

.4 however, these services bad regularly Am
that, and the total excess had been 6.190,00 a
there was only a decrease (4 800,0001. as
with the last. He was sore, that. if the
of 1817 could have foreseen that a redoes
per cent. in ail articles would take place,
sould have made the estimates much 10wer.....
_.o saving, therefore, had ire fact been made on this
head, as would appear by theft! . comparing the present
estimates, thus reduced, with the amount which the
,Committee of Finance had stated she estimates. at.
which be contended was the proper test by which to
judge of the apparent reduction. Government should
have reformed abuses, and particularly have pruned
away .the excrescent abuses of the mode of collecting
the revenue. To give the House an idea of this, he
would state a few facts. The revenue of the.Eaciar,
amounted to thirty millions, and the charge for col-
lection was 1,420,0001. being at the rate of 41. las
per cent. The Customs produced somewhat lets than
thirteen millions, and the expense of collection was
1,479,000 i. being at the rate of thirteen per cent. He
begged the House to look at this remarkable difference
—the lesser sum requiring the larger amount t•ir col-
lection. This surely demanded investigation. Re
should next go to the Hackney-coaches, which pro-
duced 26,0001. the expense ot cotlecti .n was four
thousand pounds. The Hawkers and Pedlars duty,
yielding SI,OOO/. cost GO,OOOI. to ccllect, being at
the average rate for the two last mentioned cf
twenty-two per cent. These were the taxes they
ought to repeal, which cost so much for collection.—
With regard to Ireland, the same exorbitant rate was
apparent. The Customs and Excise averaged 22 per
cent. for collection. Surely the House would not
tolerate the continuance of such an abuse. They
ought to have Committees of that House upon such
a subject. Commissioners a ere very good, but by
no means equal to Committees of that House for in-
quiry. They did not possess the same power. With
regard to the Colonies, which were a source of ex-
pense, instead of revenue, he must say, that it would
be far better that the department belonging to the
Right lion. Secretary for the IVoods and Forests
should be conducted by the Commissariat, b) which
it could be done at so much less expense. He wouli
next go to the dead weight, which, he must say, was
unfairly managed. Instead of filling up new official
appointments from the Retired List, new ones were
-
brought forward, whilst the old remained a dead
weight as before. He would take the libe!ty st-
proving what he asserted, by a reference to the Lot-
tery department, by which would he seen the im-
proper persons chosen to put into office, as far as age
went. Looking at the list of persons of first appoint-
ments, here he found an individual of torty-seven
years of age put in to a first appointment, ith a
salary of 2251. a year. Here, he was sure, it issaild
strike the House, as it had struck him, that a younger
person might have been selected from the half-pay,
which would have possessed a double advantage.
Upon this list, however, he. found the second appoint-
ment was a person of fifty-seven years of age ; the
third fitly-three; the fourth forty. five; the next tor.y.
seven ; and the following ones twenty-one, twenty-
four, sixty-nine, thirty-six, forty-six, thirty-tour—all
of which, he contended, might have gone to reduce
by so much the dead weight on the country.—
In the department of the Hawkers and Pedlars, and
Hackney Coaches, the same practice was visible.
The appointments there for salaries of 3301. a-year,
first appointments, were 57 and 62 years of ap,e, and
then went on from 26 to 70 years, affording as he
thought a tolerable sample of a desire rather to add
to than diminish the dead weight. When the con-
cerns of the Bank of England came to be discus,:ed
before that House, he undertook to shew that instead
of three per cent. they received six. The Army,
Navy, and Ordnance, were much m. .re expensive
than they would be, in consequence of the state cf
Ireland, arisint partly from misgovernment, and
partly from the number of absentees. A time of
peace,
like
toe present, was tse proper one to ex-
amine into all these abuses. Though the people might
be able to pay, no taxes should be imposed on them
that were unnecessary—(Hear, hear).
' Mr. ELLICE said, that few would derive much
consolation from the statements of the Right Hon.
Gentleman, as it appeared that the same e-tablish-
ments were to be kept up for 1824. The Chancellor
of the Exchequer had stated that, for this and the
next year the aggregate amount of the Sinking Fund
would be ten millions. liut to form that Fund for
the present year a debt had been contracted of
1,800,0001. By the issue of Exchequer Bills the
market had been raised, and a loss of five millions
had accrued to the country. If there was a real fund
to the amount of five millions, it would be much
better to take off taxes to that amount. Those who
petitioned for a sedation on the interest of the Na-
tional Debt, acted very unwisely for themselves, as
if the laws of justice should be violated in One case,
they might be violated in every other. All ranks ought
to have contributed to diminish the amount of the
National Debt.
Mr. ItICARDO said, that the Chancellor of ese
Exchequer had always referred to a future year los
a permanent Sinking Fund ; but the real Sinking
Fund of the present year was 1,400,0001. that being
the real net surplus of the revenue, above extenses,
end even upon the chewing of the Right Honourable.
Gentleman it was only '2,600,000/. in 1524, the sur-
plus would be under two millions. Though the Funds
were so high at present, yet that time had been se-
lected to add to the funded, and to diminish the
amount of the unfunded debt: a process the very re•
verse that he would have recommended. On the
subject of the Usury Laws, he thought that the present
was the proper time to repeal those absurd regula-
tions. At whatever sum the Bank chose to discount,
the rate of interest would be wholly unatfccted by it-
Mr. J. MARTIN observed, that scone millions Of
interest would, in the course of a tew days, be due
to the public creditor, for which no funds had been
provided, and fur which Government must look to
the Bank.
Mr. IIUME stated the permanent annuity charge
of the present year to be 29,696,000/. and so tar from
there being a prospect of reduction, it appeared that
there would be an increase. He was of opinion, theme
was no Sinking Fund at all.
Mr. LusniNGToN contended, there was a clear
Sinking Fund of five millions, as had been stated by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. It ought rather to
be matter of congratulation to the House, that the
Chancellor of the Exchequer proposed to keep up the

• ,
.
4. "m • *ir . .
',armed, which a . lama reams sum paid into the iieasury for the-lor that year; 1
s forth& Chits% and responding quarter was 8,21)9p001.--this year it was ceeded tha
had beim allowed, would 8,881,0001. , lie had no hope, however, that the pro- This year
Commis- duce of this year would exceed that of the last, as to. compared
five
sides to
toarrange the wards the latter end of it the effect of the repeal of Committer
As the tart of the Govern-
the taxes would begin to be felt. If it should equal lion of SO
..and Sir George Staunton ; it, the result must be very gratifying. Having stated they woul4
i the Company were Mr. the net income of the year, he now proceeded to state .No saving
the amount of the expenditure. The Right Honour. head, as w
n. Friend of his, who *as
Ine. The Commist.iouers ab}e Gentleman here adverted in detail to the follow. estimates,
ing items :
tivtereof the accountx,sbut they Committe
.
many claims were Army _ . . - £7,705,008 which be
by the. Commissioners for -- Extra Itspeus• In !round - 220,000 judge of t'
tinter-claims by the Public ---- 7,925.000 have refor
,_ A ..-niintant-General. Nark ___ - " " - 5,480,000 away .the 4
- .. . .. 1,200,000
~...
___

.ame establishment nett year, ts it appeared he had
adequate funds to support it. With respect to his
lion. Friend's statement of the settlement of
the Ea q India Company's debt, he thought he was
entitled to take credit to himself for arranging a debt
which had existed for so many years, and he might
say that it had been done with fairness and even 11-
berali: y. He repeated that, notwithstanding the cheer
of the lion. Member for Winchelsea (Mr. Eivoegham).
That H, m. and Learned Gentleman had not seen the
carers, or he might think with him, that they were
tally entitled to 1,300,0001.
Mr. C ALCR AFT stated, that from the live millions
there was to be a deduction of 1,300,0001. formerly
due by, but now allowed to, the India Company.
Mr. J. SMITH professed himself friendly to the
principle of a Sinking Fund. If the Three and a
Half, and the Four per Cents. were reduced to the
Three per Cents. it would be a great benefit to the
public. The high price of the Funds advanced public
credit, both at home and abroad. In the course of
his life, he never knew any article unnaturally cheap,
that did not afterwards become extremely high ; and
he had no doubt that the case would be the same with
the products of agriculture.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that all the felicitations
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer had come from
the Secretary to the Treasury. One reduction Minis-
ters seemed to have made—that of a trumpeter—for
they had become their own trumpeters—(Laughter).
The estimate of the Committee of 1817, had been
25,100,0001. and the estimate for the last yeat, had
been a million and a half more; and for the present
year, was not a million less. That was all they had
done. If a person held an office, he was entitled to
no compensation for another office, he had given up.
The direct contrary was the practice of Ministers. A
Gentleman, of 35 years of age, had retired on a pen-
sion of 4001. a year, upon the office being abolished ;
hut, besides that, he had a place of 3691. a year, and
8001. more from the consolidation of two offices into
one. That was directly contrary to the recommenda-
tibn of the Finance Committee of 1817.

Mr. C. SMITH thought that it was strange the
East India Company should have made a claim of
.5,000,000/. and have accepted 1,300,000/.
The Resolution for raising 7,500,0001. by issueing
Exchequer Bills, was then agreed to, as were most of
the other Resolutions.
Mr. GRENFELL wished to know whether Aus-
tria was about to pay her debt, which was contracted
with this country in the most solemn manner ? As
far a, he knew, the debt, with interest, must amount
now to 22,004001. What objection could there be
to sell the bonds left by Austria for this debt?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that he
had formerly stated that there was a negociation
then going on (and it was now going on), which
would lead, he hoped, to some arrangement, but he
would not pledge himself to it.
On the Resolution for raising 200,0001. by lottery,
111 r. MARTIN said, he should divide the House on it.

Mr. HUME hoped the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer would give up this mode of raising money.
Mr.W. SMITH Also objected to the mode of raising
money by Lotteries.— The Committee then divided,
For the Resolution - - - 74
Against it - - - - 34
Majority - - -—4 O
The remaining Resolutions were then agreed to, and
the Report was ordered to be received to-morrow.