Star.
London, England, 1805-03-09 00:00:00

m:DCIASEX [LIMON.

veranee of Enrope. This was a number nearly e.onb'c
to what we ever had before ander such circumil es.
and therefore it was not fair to fay that we cook' not
du our full (hare it the Continent timid once more
awake to a fedi of its hirheft intervals and its true)
glory. He faw no advant.ige that could reit& from
the Committee, whereas it might give rife to difpi•
riting reflation' in the country, at a moment when
all fuch feelings were molt powerfully to be depre-
cated. He trotted then their LordOups would throw
no obflacle in the way of the exertions of his Majef-
ty's fervants to increafe the Regular Force of the
Country.

After a few words from Earl Spencer, their Lord-
Ihipc divided—when the number; were,
For Lord King's motion, •
Cunt,nts 3o Net, Contents No
?mite as Prusies 57

52 127
Majority agaird Lord King % motion, 75
Adjourned At three o'clock.

HOUSE OE COMMONS,
The Marine Mutiny Bill was read a fecund time, and ordered
to be cent:tam-a 14 Monday.
A MeLige front the Lords informed the Honfe, that their Lord.
Sips had agreed to the Loan Bill and the Pottage Duty Bill.
The Sugar Drawhaik Bill, and the Legacy Duty Bill, were read
a fecund time, and ordered to be committed, the tirit fur Monday,
the fecond for Tociday next.
The third railing of the Property Tax Biß was fixed for Mon.
day.

IRISH STATE PRISONERS.
Lord HENRY PETTY moved, Agreeable to a
notice he had given on a former night, that copies of
the depofitions given upon oath by the State Prifoners
confined at Kilmainham, before three Judges, who
vifited that plifon. efpecially for the purpole, on the
14111 and t sth of July lad, fhould be laid on the table
for the ufe of the Members.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE(TER raid
that he at prefent law no objection to the Motion. But
as he had not feen the dcpofition, and did not know
its contents, he mutt fo far qualify his afrent to tte
Motion, by dating, that if that depofition con-
tained any evidence that would he improper, and con•
trary to the public fervice, to difclole, in that cafe,
which was, however, only a pofable cafe, he fhould
not agree to it.
Lord HENRY PETTY declared, that his motion
had no fuch ()Nee. The only faFts he wanted to lay
before the Houfe were refpeeting the date of the pri-
Ron, and the hat dthips that State Prifeners had (of-
fered there.

After this explanation, the motion was unanimoufly
agreed to ; as was alto a nihtion which be made for a
Copy of the Memorial to the Lord Lieutznant, tigned
conjointly by the laid Prifoners, both before and after
the date of the laid depofitions.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved the order of the day for refuming the adjourn-
ed debate nn the late Sheriffs of Middlefex.

Mr. SHERIDAN laid, he ()mold oppofe this, until
an opportunity had been offered to hear Connie' on
the fubjedt. He did not mean to examine the gene-
ral merits of the queltion, or to contend that the
Houle ought not to agree with the refolutions the
Committee had formed; but he meant to argue, th:.t
the Houle could not, with any regard to its own juf-
tice and dignity, refufe to the Sheriffs the privilege
uf being heard by their Counfel, before it came to a
final determination. It was laid, with come appear-
ance of truth, that as the Members of-the Com-
mittee are upon oath ; as they receive the evidence
under the fame folemn pledge; as they attend
to the demeanor of the witneffes, and hear the
ftrietures of Counfel upon the teitimony, th at there-
fore it is not necelfary to have the parties again ex-
amined at the Bar of the Houfe. The Committee
recite to us the evidence, and it is expected every
Gentleman compares the refolutions with the tali-
ninny fo prepared to his hands, to fee if the refill
drawn by the Committee coincides with his view of
the &potations. It was one thing to contend that
the evidence ought to be reheard, and another that
the alliance of Counfel ought to be admitted. He
was confident that the Committee, and the Noble
Lord who prefided in it, had aged with confcier-
tious impartiality, and it became the' Houk to
adt in the fame fpirit. They had not yet been .
given diftinetly to underfland that the Sheriffs bad
been fully heard in the Committee ; indeed, it was
unneceffary to propofe the queflion, becaufe the mat.
ter refpeeting thefe officers was contingent and colla-
teral. The Committee was appointed under the
Grenville Aa, and nothing in that Ratite fupplied
them with an opportunity of a fair trial. The Hoftfe
had not the whole of :he evidence before it. True
it was, that a feleetion had been made by the Noble
Lord, and thole by whom he was affitted ; but in a '
matter of 11) much intricacy and labour, might not
the Sheriffs be allowed to fay, that in the mafs of
evidence, more materials ought to have been fub-
mitted to the Houfe, or that tome effential part of it
had been accidentally fuppreffed ? Gentlemen would
not furely difpute, that they ought to be heard, if no
opportunity of this kind had been afforded them If
it could not be correctly Rated that they had not been
heard, it might fairly be afferted, they had not tLe
means of fully difeuffing the merits of the cafe ; and,
therefore, the Houle could not proceed on that .
complete information which ought to be given an-
tecedent to its determination. The Sheriffs had but
one day to initruil their Counfel, and to ellablith
their cafe. If the duties of the Committee were pro-
traeled, the attendance of the Sheriffs was only ocea-
frond!. With regard to the trial of the returning offi-
cer, he fhould be glad to have pointed cut to him
any part of the Aet which requires a Committee to
intlitute any inquifitian into their conduct? The fla-
me direlled only that the matter of the petition be
tried. This was the (Ingle point ; this the infulated
queftion on which they were to decide : on other fob-
jets they were to make a fpecial report. He wrs
not fond of makinc, comparifons between the modes
of judicial proceeding, but there were tome analogies
which were in obvious that they could not efcape no-
tice. Thus, here the Committee under the Grenville
Aft had a double charafter. As to the immediate
matter referred to them, they referablaw petty jury,
as conitituted by the law of England ; their verdict
was to be final, as to that tingle particulir. In
another retina they were (imam- to the Gr and Jury,
under the fame law they heard exparte evidence as to
collateral fuhjeets, and in thefe the Honfe referve.t
to id& the power of revilion. This was the caik
With regard oo Jasnefon ; his name was not CICA

a number nearly eoub'c
nderlnchcircumll.an es.
to fay that we cook' not
inent (horrid once more
1 inrerefls and its truer}
e that could relolt from , ,
might give rife to clifpi•
itry, at a moment when )
powerfully to be depre-
• LnrdOups would throw
exertions of his Majef-
: Regular Force of the
arl Spencer, their Lord.
'beta
•
Contents 70
es Si
127
s motion, 75
k. •
IMMONS,
d a fecund time, and ordered
ed the I-tonic, that their Lord-
-1 the Pottage Duty Bill.
e Legacy Duty BBL were read •
mined, the tint fur Monday,
Tax BUZ was fixed for Mon-
a ISOM a Ittl•
moved, agreeable to a
Her night, that copies of
th by the State Prifoners
fore three Judges, who
for the purpote, on the
ould be laid on the table
he EXCHEIZIER raid •
Etion to the Motion. But
tion, and did not know
nalify his affent to the
f that depotition con-
Id be improper, and con•
to difclole in that cafe,
pofable cafe,: he &mild
eclared, that his motion
I y fat he wanted to lay
ling the date of the pri-
;tate Prifoners had fof-
motion was unanimoully
ion which be made for a
Lord Lieutznant, tigned
rs, both before and after
ns.
Lecriese.
f the EXCHEQUER
w returning the adjourn-
s of Middletex.
thould oppofe this, until
red to hear Countel on
an to examine the gene- -
or to contend that the
with the refolutions the
he meant to argue, tln.t
iy regard to its own juf-
he Sheriffs the privilege
fel, before it came to a
Paid, with tome appear-
Members of •the Conl-
ey receive the evidence
ledge; as
,they attend
ritneires, and hear the
e teitimony, th at there-
lye the parties again ex.
[mire. The Committee
td it is expected every
rotations with the tar-
ds, to fee if the refill
incides with his view of
thing to contend that
card, and another that
n to be admitted. He
)mittee, and the Noble
ad aged with confcier-
became the' Houfe to •
ley had not yet been
I that the Sheriffs bad
'mince ; indeed, it was
etbon, becaufe the mat.
'as contingent and collo yy
-
a appointed under the
in that Ilatute fupplied
a fair trial. The Hottfe
idence before it. Trne
‘t
nen made by the Noble
re was al-lifted ; but in a '
and labour, might not
fay, that in the mafs of
ight to have been fub-
Come effential part of it
fled ? Gentlemen would
ought to be heard, if no 't
been afforded them If
d that they had not been
:rted, they had not tiie
merits of the cafe ; and,
not proceed on that . '
ought to be given an-
The Sheriffs had but
ounfel, and to ellablith :
he Committee were pro- , ).
: Sheriff; was only occa-
rial of the returning ofE-
ave pointed cut to hi:n •
:quires a Committee to iy
their condo& ? The (la-
natter of the petition be
mint ; this the inflilated
to decide : on other fob-
pecial report. He wis
Cons between the modes
ere were tome analogies
icy could not efcape no-
lace under the Grenville
As to the immediate •
referabled-14 petty jury,
England ; their verdict
fingle particular. In
tan to the Gr and Jury,
rd ex parts evidence as to
ere the Hortfe referve.t
ria. This was the ea&
name was not even IWO-

tion eel in the Petition, hot a !Pedal report was made
is the proceedings on the Borough of Wincheiter,
the Houfe took the charge of him, and lent him to
his trial. But whether the precedents, modern or
ancient. were confulted, they were all againa the
Right Hon. Gentleman. Some exceptions, indeed,
mutt be admitted in the time of Charles 11., but
fine the Revolution, every trample of thefe pro.
ceedings leads dircaly to the conclution for which
be (Mr. Sheridan) would now contend. What was
the principle of the Grenville Ad, and how was it
toad erflood at the time when it was framed ? With
in the year in which that memorable Biil was
patted, occurred the Shoreham cafe, anal the opinions
of Sir George Saville, of Cavendifh, of Dunning, and
of the late Lord Rofslyn, were given upims it. All
there eminent perfons knew pettedly the intention
of the Hon. Member who prepared it, and the views of
Parliament in affenting to the meafure ; and they re-
futed to come to any decision on the condo& of the
Returning Officer, until he bad been heard in his own
defence.. There were tome queflions on this bonnets
which naturally fugpefted themfelves to any one at all
converfant in the principles of Britilh law. Did they
give a copy of the charge to the perfons accufed ?
Had the Committee a power to compel thefe perfons
to be tried ? Did they give their atfent to this fortn of
trial? Have they any means of challenging the jury
from whom they are to receive the verdid I Have
they any voice in the appointment of nominees? To
each and all of thefe interrogatories the anfwer mug
be given in the negative. With regard to the lad, it
was obfervable that the two other parties have their
nominees, and it may be the intereft of chore parties
to have the Shetiffs condemned who may, from prin-
ciple or prejudice, have fapported the interelt of a
third competitor. Purfuing the fame mode of Mid-
tration, it was to be noticed, that the State gives
to the Sheriffs no damages in the event of an on-
Jolt profecution. Under filch views, how could the
Houfe, as was orged before. conliftently with its own
dignity or joftice, accelerate its determination, before
the Sheriffs were heard in their own vindication ?
• But it was Paid, the Commons of England had
not the power of examining the witneffes on oath.
—Although not immediately before the Houle,
it might be proper to fay, that if this cjrcumflance
were any Impediment to this branch of the Legato-
tore in the difcharge of its inquifitnrial duties, that
power ought undoubtedly to be conceded. In Ire
Land, where a quetlinn of this kind arofe, the praaice
in Ilia cafes was both to hear Counfel and evidence.
In an inttance that came before them, it was found
inconfiffent with every received principle of equity to
condemn the Sheriff wittput listening to his defence,
and by an A 8 it was wieldy required, that if
any charge thould be brought againft a Sheriff or Re-
turning Officer, he &old not only have a copy of
the charge, but he amid be fully heard before the
Committee. It was not improbable, that, feeling the
importance of thefe regulations, he fhould propose a
fimilar Bill for governing the proceedingc in fuch
cafes, in the Parliament of the United Kingdom.
Lord MARSHAM laid, true it was, that the whole

of the evidence on the Middlefex Elation was not be-

fore the Houfe, but with great care and diligence
every part of it had been extraited. which referred
to the conduit of the Sheriffs, and in what con-
cerned the Mill-votes in particular. It was alfo
coned, that the Counfel of the Sheriffs did not at-
tend during the fertitiny, excepting one profef
fional Gentleman, who was allowed to propofe any
quenions to the witneffes he thought tended to exo-
nerate his clients. At the termination of the enqui-
ry, the Counfel -for the Sheriffs might have been
heard, had he thought the lumming up the whole of
the evidence would have been beneficent to his caufe:
this was not requited, and therefore it was prefum-
ed, he judged it more convenient to admit the tefti-
loony to pals without any general comment. In the
cafe of Davidlon, and on the Shoreham cafe, fpecial
reafons were to be affigned for a dillina hearing at
the bar, not precifely applicable to the prefent. It
was quite ufelefs to give the panics notice of the na-
ture of the charge, becaufe they were frequently in
attendance, and were perfeftly converfant in this
protralled bufinefs. The fituation of Roberts, the
returning officer, in the cafe juft adverted to, was
very different ; it terminated fuddenly ; and hence
arofe the neceffity of further examination. tae
thought it right to make thefe remarks, but, at the
fame time, it muff be underflood, that it was the
with and the recommendation of the Committee that
Counfel thould be heard upon the evidence. He
thought with the Honourable Gentlemln, that the
fame permiffion in this refpea fhould be granted be.
fore the Houfe, which the .I:eriffs had already re
ceived from the Committee.
Mr. FOX faid, if we were to have the evidence in
this written form, fhould the Houfe, at leaf), not have I
the benefit of obfervations upon it ? To this none of
the objeaions applied, no poffible inconvenience would
attend it, and none of thofe. delays would be occa-
finned to which the examination of witneffea might
conduce. What, therefore, was the fituation to
which the cafe now flood ? The Houle gave that cre-
dit to the Committee to which it was entitled on the
fubjea of the tellimony ; yet, feeling all this refpea for
that Committee, and aging upon it, Gentlemen were
required on the queftion of the audience to be given
to Counfel to withdraw their confidence, and in direa
oppofition to its recommendation, to deprive the She-
riffs of that advantage. It was not enough for the
Minifter to defire the Hon& to ail inconfinently with
every former precedent, but alfo he expeas it to pro-
ceed in a way contrary to the opinion of its own Com.
mime. Whether in this, or in a fubfequent Rage, it
would be right that Counfel fhould be heard, he would
not determine ; but of this he was perfealy Pure, that'
to deny the Sheriffs thefe means of their own vindica-
tion, was diametrically oppofite to every received
maxim of public juaice.
The MASTER of the ROLLS was clearly againft
the re-bearing of the evidence, as the law of Parlia-
ment now flood, but was not lure whether Tome frefh
legiflative provifion might not be equally ncceffary
and expedient. As to the bearing of Counfel, look-
ing to the reafon of the thing, he had no doubt of the
right of the Sheriffs. If, however, the prailice of
Parliament was different, it muff be adhered to. He
cnnieffed be knew of no precedents to convince him
that fuch was the prailice. If Counfel were to be
beard at all, he bad no doubt that this was the Rage
when they would be heard molt to the advantage
both of the Houk and the parties.
LThe CHANCELLOR.of the EXCHEVER laid,

he paha?! agteed *itb the Right Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, that, if Counfel were to be heard, this was
the only proper opportunity t at the fame time he
thought it right to fay, that after the heft attention be
could give the (Aga, he could find no infiance where
the party had either been beard perfonally or interme-
diately by his Caned. In this alto he concurred with
his Hon. and Learned Friend. Two quellions were
to be confidered s what was matt confiftent with nata-
-1 ral juftice ? and, what had been the praaice of the
Houfe ? He cenfeffed, under all the circurnfiances,
he &fluid rather be inclined to fay. it was fafer not to
judge by Wind and general reafoning, but to truft
to the efiablifiseti rules of the Houle ; and in this view
he could not avoid thinking that Counfel ought not
to be heard. This point, however, was not of great
importance, but it was molt ellential, on the matter
before contended for, that the Houfe thould not ad-
mit any communication, not fanaioned by an oath,
to fuperfede the teftimony delivered with that folent•
nity. It was, perhaps, equally Co that the confidence
of the Houfe fhould not be withdrawn from its Com-
mittees, fulfilling their duties under the fame appeal
to the higheft tribunal. If be was clearly undeihood
that no innovation &Gold be permitted, he had no
°Nation to the appearance of Counfel at the Bar of
the Houfe.

Mr. SHERIDAN, Lord MARSHAM, and Mr.
ROSE FULLER, Paid a few words: after which,
as the Speaker was putting the queaion, that, this
debate be now refumed,

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
rote to fay, as it feemed the lenfe of the Houle; and
the particular with of his Right Hon. and Learned
Friend (whore authority mutt have great weight), he
walled to give the earließ opportunity for bearing
Cotinfel, and on this account he hoped the debate
would be refumed. The Counfel might now be cal-
led in, and no unnecetfary delay thould be admitted.
The SPEAKER faid, the queftion mat depend
upon the fans, if the Learned Counfel were in at-
tendance, and were prepared difcharge the duty
impofed upon them. If they were not, under the
prefent difpofition of the Hoare, the debate could
not be refumed.—The quellion being again propofed
in the fame form.

Mr. SHERIDAN, after a few words from the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, faid, as the parties did
not expea Counfel were to be heard, they were not
prepared to comply with the requifition of the Houle.
Mr. VOX faid, what had before 'pafftd in the
Houle, was fo broad an intimation they were not to
be heard by Connie!, that he was not at all furprifed
they were not now ready. '
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
Paid, he under Rood, that the Sheriffs had fcient
notice this queßion was to be agitated. The attempt
had been made by the Gentlemen oppofite, and they
had fucceeded. Although it was not made' known
in a Parliamentary way, yet molt Gentlemen' were
apprifed that when the debate on this fubjea before
occurred, profeffional Gentlemen were in attendance:
The Houfe would not allow itfelf to be trifled with,
nor would it precipitate the hufinefs if a fair reafon
fur delay were affigned. He would propofe that the
Counfel (hould be called in, and if any competent
motive for delay were Rated, he had no doubt the
Houfe would extend its indulgence on the occafion.
The Counfel being called in, Mr. Avast faid, he
was in the neighboutbood by mere accident ; he was
fent for in the hurry of the moment, and that he was
by no means prepared to do jußice to thofe for whom
he had the honour to appear.
After Mr. Adam had withdrawn,

The CHANCELLOR of the EICCHEQVER fit id
he did not think, under the circumtlances, it would
be right •to prefs the matter further now. He propofed,
therefore, that Counfel he heard on Monday, and that
Counfel be required to commence at four o'clock on
that day.
This being put and agreed to, Mr. FOSTER poll-
poned his motion on certain Ira Accounts, which
was appointed for Monday.
lir JOHN NEWPORT alfo deferred his motion
to a future day.—Adjourned, at half pail fix o'clock,
to Monday next.