Star.
London, England, 1824-06-18 00:00:00

EAST INDIA POSSESSIONS.

On the motion of Mr. Secretary CANNING, the drop-
ped Order of the Day was read for going into a Commit-
tee on the East India Possessions Bill.
Mr. Secretary CANNING then rose; and said—ln
pursuance, Sir, of the promise I made a few nights back,
I propose, in moving that you leave the Chair, to:open
very shortly the nature of the transaction out of which
this measure arises. I take the liberty of presenting my-
self to the House on the present occasion, although the
Bill is in the hands of my Right Hbnourable Friend the
President of the Board of Controul (Mr. Wynn), because
the treaty originated at the time when I had the honour
of holding that office, and therefore I am responsible
for the principle upon which it is founded. In order to
judge of the transaction fairly, Gentlemen will please to
recollect the situation in which things stood at the con-
clusion of the war. It will probably be remembered,
that at that period all the possessions which had been
taken from the Dutch were restored to them. I am not
now called upon to discuss the policy or expediency of
'that measure; but I think I am prepared to shew that
in the existing circumstances of the times, it was highly
desirable not to press too hardly upon that country ; and
at all events the treaty with the Netherlands received the
approbation of Parliament. In this state things stood
until some time in the year 1816, when I came ihto of-
fice as President of the Board of Controul. There were
many stipulations then in progress—many had not been
fully explained—many were left open to discussion; and
from the natural eagerness, on the one hand, to obtain re-
possession of those Settlements from which they had
been driven by conquest, and from the slowness natu-
ral to the transaction, great delay too place, and consi-
derable difficulties arose on account of the great distance
from home. In consequence of this a degree of ill hu-
mour had sprung up, which required a great deal of 1
management and forbearance to appease. I trust I shall
not be supposed unkind in wishing to disparage those
who were employed in our own service; but, I must
state, that there was a view taken of the transaction
by the subordinate agents of the East India Company,
inconsistent with their capacity of subordinate agents—
they questioned the policy of the Treaty, and seemed
more disposed to look into the stipulations than to carry
them into execution. At a considerable distance from
any controul agents are sometimes apt to forget the re-
lation in which they stand to those who entrust them
with power; and so it happened, that these Gentlemen
placed the Government at home in this perplexing con-
dition. They must either be pledged to support them
in all their extremities, or be reduced to the necessity
of rescinding their acts; and I think I speak within
bounds when I say, that there were at that period, in
the year 1816, no Less than half a dozen treaties in pro-
gress of negociation, without any authority whatso-
ever—(Hear, hear). At that time I received constant
communications that a design was entertained by
the Government of the Netherlands to retake all
the possessions and recover all the advantages which
they had formerly enjoyed ; and to exclude the Eng-
lish from all participation in the trade in those

seas—(Near). As was my duty, I frequently required,
in answer to those representations, some specific act-
which could be substantiated by evidence, so that the
question might fairly be brought under consideration;
but to all my demands I never could get anything like
a distinct answer. I received constant reiterations of
the intentions of the Dutch Government, abundance of
vague insinuations, and even, by way of illustration,
an obscure reference to the massacre of Amboyna—
Laughier).—On the other hand, complaints reached me
from the Netherlands of the tardiness of our agents to
make restitution ; and it happening very unfortunately
at that time that a most distingurshed Gentleman, of
considerable talents and great zeal for the public ser-
vice, the then Governor of Java, was'sent to Bencoolen,
and having been raised from the humble title of Resi-
dent, which in fact meant nothing mire than Superin-
tendant of Pepper —(A laugh)—to the rank and station
of Lieutenant-Governor, a suspicion was entertained
that there was a design on the part of the English Go-
vernment to form a new empire in the Indian seas, of
which Bencoolen was to be the capital. Out of this state
of things arose a feeling of ill humour between two
Powers which, in my judgment, had every reason of
sound policy for agreeing, and, in fact, there seemed
to have been no prosrect of bickering. As the greater
part of the imputation against the Indian Government
was a design of exclusive trade, and an intention to keep
the commerce of the Indian seas to themselves, the first
step towards a negotiation was to get a disavowal of
the principle, although no act bad been committed.—
I am aware that such a course is unusual in diplomatic
intercourse ; but as the great question was the principle
to which I have alluded, our first object was to have
this principle disavowed. In the course of these mutual
animosities, by the enterprising spirit and sound judg-
ment of the Gentleman I have already mentioned, we
became possessed of the Island of Sincapore, the ad-
vantages of which must be too well known to require
now to be explained. It may, perhaps, be expected
that I should explain the nature of our title to this pos-
session. As facts and documents are necessary to a clear
title, I individually was certainly of opinion that we
could not substantiate our title; but as all titles in the
East are not of a very accurate and defined nature,
I thought it would be a great mistake to apply to
this particular case the general principles of European
policy, or any high romantic feelings of morality—
(Hear, hear). Amongst the charges against the
Netherlands, it was urged that they had entered into
treaties with all the Eastern Islands, excluding all
other European Powers from commercial intercourse.
This was a species of Treaty which it was obviously
our interest to annul; but, at the same time, I could
not help remembering, that we ourselves had entered
into similar Treaties with other States. However, the
existence of this fact did not take away my desire to
abrogate the Treaties to which I have alluded; but,
then, there were considerable difficulties to be encoun-
tered. This consideration led me to look at the means
whereby we could repair the error, and undo the advan-
tages which the Dutch possessed, and accordingly a
Treaty was entered into, at the restoration of peace, to
restore to the Dutch some Islands, amounting to 12 in
number. These Islands were not of very great size or
extent. They were trifling in point of income, and
most inconvenient as to the rights and claims which they
set up; every one of which were the subjects of con-
stant discussion and irritation, and were sure to conti-
nue, so long as our intercourse with them was main-
tained. It was, therefore, thought desirable to remove
all these annoyances, and thus to get quit of all mutual
recriminations, for each party could justly upbraid the
other with charge of " et tat rogue: The results of this
Treaty were—an admission of the principles of free
trade—a line of demarcation was drawn, separating our
territories from theirs, and thus avoiding all differences
arising from immediate contact, and ridding them of
their settlements on the Indian Continent—(Hear).—
All these objects are now attained—we have obtained
Sincapore, we have got a free trade, and in return we
have given up Bencoolen. So far from Bencoolen hav-
ing been advantageous in point of revenue, it was a
most onerous and inconvenient possession; and when
the question of abandoning it altogether was mooted,
and the Company ultimately came to the determination
of retaining it, it was not on account of its importance,
but from their not being able to say into whose hands
it might fall. The Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Hume)
opposite, will remember that it cost this country 85,0001.
annually, over and above its income, for the mainte-
nance of that barren possession, and the only return we
received was the cultivation of spices. But the Indian
Government gave the ground, gave the plants, and gave
the money for cultivation ; and when the question was
whether the possession should be abandoned, it is a lit-
tle hard to quarrel with the abandonment when we got
something for it—(Hear, hear). But it is said we have
given away a valuable possession to the Dutch, because
it was considered favourable to the cultivation of spices;
but with this I have nothing to do—with this the treaty
has nothing to do. But, in fact, Bencoolen gives very
little spices, and the East India Company has at this
moment in its stores as great a quantity of every species
of spice as will do for five or six years consumption,
which will supply the period within which will arise
the reconsideration of the Charter. The whole dan-
ger then to be apprehended is reduced to this, that
the country may, perchance, run short of nutmegs,
cloves, and cinnamon, for our puddings—(A laugh).—
By the way, I said cinnamon by mistake, for when we
talk of their monopoly in nutmeg, we have the mono-
poly in cinnamon—( Hear, hear). I could not have the
face to argue with the Dutch on the subject of mono-
poly. If I said, " You have a monopoly of spice"—
they would answer, " But you have a monopoly in
opium." " We have salt," " but you have cinnamon"
(Hear, hear). It would really require considerable
powers of face to reproach the good people of the Ne-
therlands with doing that which we practice ourselves.
But to those who mourn over the loss of those savoury
ingredients, it may be some consolation to know, that
Sincapore possesses a soil and climate admirably suited
for their production—(A laugh)—and they may take
comfort in the assurance, that long before any new
appetite can be created in this country greatly surpass-
ing anything which has hitherto been experienced, we
shall have a plentiful growth of our own, even if the
Dutch should be mad enough to maintain a monopoly
so unprofitable—(Hear, hear). What the real value
of Sincapore may be, I am not prepared to say, but this
1 know, that in all discussions on this subject, it has ever
been considered the one thing necessary, the liklith ne-
eessarium, to render our Indian possessions complete.—
Be its value, then, what it may, that object is now se-
cured. The cession of Malacca now gives us the con-
tinuous possession of the Malayan peninsula, and by the
acquisition of Malacca and Sincapore,- we have the
.ocuplete command of the Malacca Straits to the Chi-

nese Sea—(Hear, hear). We have further sectitred the
extinction of the Dutch title on the Continent, and we
have given in return a barren settlement, which cost us
85,000 annually to maintain. We have given a pio-
fession on our part of a sincere disposition to pursue the
principles of free trade, and we have gained its return
the same professions from a Power at all times snprosel
to he adverse to those points, and they are now I 1 •e. ge
in the face of the world, to maintain free trade to a
greater extent than was even yet known in Asia, and to
full as great an extent as any other Power in Eat ope—
(Hear, hear). Having, therefore, laid the foundation if
a friendly understanding between the two countries, alai
obtained for England all that she tequired ; I cainoa
think that the treaty has done any disservice to the
country, having purchased all that we wanted, at no
other sacrifice than the surrender of a settlement, which,
from principles of policy we were called upon to 41).11:-
don. It is nut of these transactions, Sir, that the pie-
sent Bill arises ; and it is proposed to place the new set.
Clement under the controul of the East India Company,
subject, of course, to the same responsibility as for ail
the other Indian possessions. I now move, Sir, that
you leave the Chair.
Mr.IIUME was not disposed to agree with the Right
Honourable Gentleman, or be swayed in his opinion by
the specious statement he had made to the Ilou.e. The
subject was one of the highest importance, and little
suited to the facetiousness with which the Right lion.
Gentleman thought proper, in some parts of his (rse] va-
tions, to treat it. Our policy in the East Indies had of
late years tended to aggrandize the interests of every
other nation except this country. Of this the treaty of
Java afforded evidence ; and in the late treaty the
Grecian Archipelago had been quite shut out, and a
monopoly of the trade it afforded ceded to the Dutch.
It had been said that it was the interest of this country,
since the peace, to protect the Dutch, and to aff,..ta
every means that could contribute to its strength. If
so, why keep Demerara from them, and the other places
we appropriated to ourselves? Sorely Demerara was
of more importance to them than it was to us. The
treaty of Java, in his opinion, was entered into with an
utter ignorance of the interests of England, othet wise
it would not have contained the conditions and provi-
sions which were to be found in it. It was the grossest
blunder of diplomacy which had occurred for a long
time. The conduct of Government towards the English
settlements in the East Indies was only to he compared
to the manner in which we acted towards Ireland : in
the one instance, as in the other, we sought to establish
a power and influence, not by what the interests of the
community suggested and required, but by a brute force,
which was naturally resisted, and rendered unpopular
and unacceptable. The Hon. Member proceeded to
detail our policy generally towards the East Indian Set-
tlements, which, in his opinion, was liable to much cen-
sure ; and complained of the tone in which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had spoken of Governor Raffles, whote
services were, in his opinion, most important and useful.
As to Bencoolen, he did not himself regard it as a place
of primary importance for this country to retain. In-
deed he (Mr. Hume) was an advocate some time ago for
the East India Company relinquishing it, as well as the
Prince of Wales's Island, which did not appear to him
an important possession to England. His principal
objection to the present treaty was, that it involved
this country in a breach of good faith. From his own
experience he had an opportunity of knowing that
the Dutch were mast unpopular in the East Indies, and
therefore any cession made to them should be regarded
with peculiar jealousy and caution. As to the Malacca
Straits, which had been so much relied upon by the
Right Hon. Gentleman, he (Mr. Hume) was not disposed
to give much importance to that cession ; as to what lay
to the Not th of those Straits, he was ready to admit we had
gained some advantage; but then we were shut out and
excluded from all that lay to the south of them. Whilst,
therefore, we were possessed of one end, and dii-
possessed of the other, it could not be fairly said that
we had the real and substantial possession of these
Straits. The acquisition of Sincapore was not, in his
opinion, by any means an equivalent for what we had
sustained in substantial loss by the cession of Bencoolen,
and the other advantages which this treaty gave away.
This was his opinion, and he was satisfied it was in con-
formity with the sense of the country.
Mr. ROBERTSON, at some length contended, that
our China trade would be endangered by the treaty to
the amount of nearly three millions annually, and he
therefore felt it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. C. WYNN stated, that the passing of this Bill
would make no difference as to the execution of the
Treaty to which it referred, inasmuch as it had been
already ratified, and had been guaranteed by the good
faith of the country. He thought that the,s'peech of the
Honourable Member for Aberdeen ft:fatted rather to
the Treaty of 1814 than to the present Treaty, as he
did not seem acquainted with the places to which allu-
sion was made in the latter Treaty. He denied that in
case of war our trade to China would be entirely at the
mercy of the Dutch. Bencoolen was not a fortification
of any strength, and whatever power was master of the
sea, was also master of Bencoolen. When we were at
peace with the Dutch, we were entitled by this Treaty
to friendly offices at Bencoolen; and when we went to
war with them, he had no doubt that we should be able
to take it. He contended that we had not been guilty
of any breach of faith to the native Powers in ceding
these islands to the Dutch, and further argued that the
price of spices had not been increased, but on the con-
trary, had been diminished by their cession. • Ise con-
cluded by declaring that he gave his warmest support
to this Bill.

Mr. BRIGHT opposed it, because he believed that
the treaty which it ratified was a breach of good faith
to the native Powers, and was only made by the Ditch
for the purpose of being violated. He contended that
the islands ceded were part of the property of the Croy' n
of England, and that being such, they could not he
ceded without the consent of Parliament. He called
upon Parliament to withhold that consent, and. to throw
out the present measure.
Mr. AS FELL supported the Bill, contending that
the treaty to which it referred was well calculated to
put an end to all the differences which existed between
the English and Dutch Governments. He denied that
the treaty gave the command of the Straits of Sunda
to the Dutch. As we had Prince of Wales's Island at
one end of them, Sincapore at the other, and Malacca
in their centre, we had a full command of those Straits,
and therefore could not receive any material annoyance
in our trade with China.
Mr. TR ANT exphe,sed himself in favour of the Bill,
and declared that it was generally approved of by the
merchants of London.

Sir C. FORBES said, that altogether this question
was one of a division, of spoil, without any regard to
the interests of the people, who were so vitally con•

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t. -nes] in the matter. Self *as altogether the govern-
; 1, rrinciple, and to that he must express his decided
c,biection. He thought, however, the arrangements
nude with the Dutch would prove advantageous, al-1
though, he must admit, not so beneficial as they ought
w he to this country.
Mr. MONEY said, that in his opinion this was one
of the most important Treaties tit at had been made in
furtherance of our trade and navigation in the Eastern
Archipelago. Sincapore promised every day to become
of more value. The Treaty laid a foundation fqr remov-
ing all grounds of dissention between the btiglish and'
patch Governments in India.
The amendment was then negatived without a division, and the
'louse resolved itwlt into a Committee on the Bill.
Mr. HUMS wished to know if this was the proper time to in-
troduce a clause for compensation to the settlers now transferred to
tLe Hutch?
The Chairman (Mr. COURTENAY) said, that would be the
witless of a separate Committee.
slr. Secretary CANNING said, that when a case could be made
cot, it would be time enough to provide compensation.
After a few words from Mr. Wm and Mr. BRION?, the Bill
was reported without amendment, and ordered to be read a third
time this day.