Star.
London, England, 1802-03-13 00:00:00

TREL..IID.

Mr.WarsrsALL, from the Commit!lours of the Cußoms
to Ireland, prefented an Account of the Exports and Imports of
that Country, which were ordered to lie on the Table.
Mr. Coatis moved toren Abftraft of the Receipts and lilacs
of the Exchequer is Ireland, front the rich of January am, to
the st► of January slioa.—Ordered.
Mr. Comas prefented an Account of the Receipts and Dif-
borfements of the Conuniflionen of Accounts in Ireland, from
the sstb of December !Soo, to the asth of December 18o1—
which was ordered to lie on the Table.

Mr. C 11017014 from the Treafury of Ireland, prefented an
Account Clewing how the monies granted for the Stroke of Ire-
land, for the year aor, had been difpofed of, which was or-
dered to lie on the Table. An Account of the Receipts and
Iffues of the Treafury of Ireland, for the year slice—which
was alfo ordered to lie on the Table.

Mr. Cozy moved the Order of the Day for pi-
ing into a Committee upon certain AEls refpeaing
the Revenue of Ireland. The fame being rcad,
Mr. Coaav moved, that the Account prefented
on Wednefday berMr. Crofton, of the Per.
suanent Charges of Ireland, be referred to the Paid
Committee.

Mr. FOSTER Paid, he wifhed to afk his Right
Hon. Friend, what his obje& was in referring this
Account to the Committee ?

Mr. CORRY faid, that his Right Hon. Friend,
who was fo converfant with all the buf►nets of Ire-
land, could not but know that tl►ere were certain
Permanent charges on the Confolidated Fund of
Ireland, which charges were founded upon Ads
of Parliament, all of which had paired under the
eye of the Right Hon. Gentleman himfelf, except
one, which palled lark Se lion. Thefe Charges,
the Right Hon. Gentleman muff know, were in
their nature permanent, and invariable in their
amount. The Houle would, perhaps, be furpri-
zed, when he acquainted them, that altbou7,h thefe
charges were permanent and invariable, yet there
was no permanent provifion made for paying them
out of the Exchequer of Ireland. Therefore the
f►tuation in which they at prefent flood, was this—
there were permanent Charges, without any per-
manent Fund for defraying them. The amount
of thefe charges was no lets than between three
and four millions. The firff Item in this catalogue
of charges was, the Intereft of the Debt of Ireland,
and the Sinking Fund, which every one knew muff
be provided for. The next was the Civil Lift,
granted in the fame manner as it was in this
country, and upon a fimilar principle alto, viz.
upon a valuable confideration given in lieu of it
by the Crown. Thefe were unprovided for. It
was unneceffary for him to enumerate all the par•
titulars of thefe charges; it was fufficient to in-
form the Honfe of their nature. It was now pro-
pofed to renew there Grants of the Irifh Revenue,
which, in Ireland, had always been voted annual-
ly. It was propofed to renew them to meet the
burthens of the year—burthens which, in their
amount, could admit of no queftion—burthens

which did not depend upon any vote of Supply—
burthens which were not now to be granted, but
which, neverthelefs, now remained to be provided
for. It was to provide a Fund to meet thefe
charges, that he now propofe' to continue the
bills Revenue Ads, and, he believed, a more un-
exceptionable Motion could not be brought before
the Houfe.
Mr. FOSTIR Girl, his Right Hon. Friend had
not anfwered his queftion, the °kid' of which was
to afcertain the ground of the prefent Motion.—
The Right Hon. Gentleman bad faid, that there
were permanent Charges in Ireland, for which no
permanent Provifion was made, but he had not
Rated whether he now propofed to make thefe
Grants permanent ; he took it for granted no fuch
intention was entertained. If the Right Hon.
Gentleman now intended to make them perma-
nent, it would aid a complete change in the fyf-
tem of the bilk Eftablifhment, without any notice
to the People of Ireland that any fuch plan was in
agitation, or without any one Member from that
part of the United Kingdom being apprized that
fuch a Motion was to be made. He therefore mita
intreat his Right Hon. Friend not to pulls his Mo.
tion in the manner he now propofed. If this was
a propefition only for continuing the Revenue for
two months, in conformity to the Supply which
ad Necn voted, he mould not oppofe it. But in
',lion, this plan of voting the whole Revenue
:, and as it were in the lump, was neither
,le to the pradice of the Parliament of Ire-
nor of Great Britain—becaufe by this mode
feeding, all power of examining and difcuff-
fubjed in detail was precluded, as the de-
the Bills were not given. The objea

new thole Tax Bills, but he fhould be glad to know -
whether they had been voted in a Committee of
Supply ? the forms of Parliament required, before
any meafure of this kind could be carried into ef-
fed, that they ihould be voted in Committees of
Supply and Ways and Means. Thefe were very
falutary forms, which the wifdom of the Houle re-
quired, and which it would be improper to dn.-
penfe with. But infiead of complying with circle
forms, it was propofed to continue the whole of
this Revenue, as if they were merely continuing a
temporary Statute, without any one Member from
Iceland knowing of any fuch intention ; for one,
he protefted he-had no notion of fuch an intention
being entertaned.
• Mr. CORE r raid, he had flattered himfelf that lie
had fatisfaaorily anfwered the queftion of his
Right Hon. Friend, at lean, as he underftood it.
He now underftood the Right Hon. Gentleman to
advert only to the mode and form of the proceed-
ing, and that he did not oppofe the objea of his
Motion. With regard to the queftion which had
been pmpofed to lum,he begged kave to fay, that
it was not his intention at prefent to propofe to
make thefe Bills permanent ; but he fhould think
himfelf much deficient in his duty, and deferring
of blame, if he was not now ready to Rate' he rea-
fon why he was not now prepared to propofe to
the Houfe to make a permanent provifion for thefe
permanent charges. He accounted for not being
now prepared to propofe fuch a meafure, by call-
ing to the recolleaion of the Houfe all the circum-
fiances of the prefent times, by Rating the doubts
that fr9m thefe circumftances exifted with regard
to the future Eftablifhments of the Empire, and
alto the doubts which he entertained refpcfting the
future Revenue of Ireland, which it was impoffi-
ble at prefent to afccrtain. Thefe were the reafons
why he was not at prefent prepared to propofe the
making thefe Bills permanent, which he fhould 1
otherwire have thought it his duty to do. Think-
ing as he did, that it was the duty 4 that Houfe
to provide for the public creditors of Ireland, and
to give them the fame degree of certainty and con-
fidence with regard to their Annuities, that the
public creditors of England enjoyed ; he was alfo
equally convinced, that it was the duty of that
Houk to provide for the Civil Lift of Ireland,
which the Parliament of that country had granted
to the Crown for a very valuable Confideration.—
Thinking, upon thefe grounds, that the good faith
of the Country required that the provifion for
thefe charges fhould be made permanent, he fhould
have thought it his duty, following the example
which had been fet in this Country, to have pro-
) pofcd a Bill to make them permanent. Upon thefe
grounds, he hoped, he fhould, at prcfent, Rand
enured for only propofing to continue thefe Bills
for one year, and he trotted, in that Motion, he
fhould not be op fed by his Right Hon. Friend.
With regard to the mode of proceeding, which he
propofed to adopt on the prefent occafion, it was
not for him to call to the recolleaion of the Right
Hon. Gentleman, that in the Committee of Ways
and Means, provifion was made for the Services
voted in the Committee of Supply, but he mull be
aware, that money bufinefs might originate in a
Committee of the whole Houfe, as well as in a
Committee of Supply. The Houfc, always true
to the principles of its own Proceedings, and al-
ways on its guard for the proteaion of its own
forms, laft year adopted a fimilar propofition,
which he had brought forward under fimilar cir-
cumfiances, and very nearly on the fame day of
the Seffion. He did not then prefume to be mailer
of the form of proceedings in the Houle, but fub-
mitted to thole who were able, from their fuperior
experience, to guide him, and was juftified in his
condo& by the approbation of the Houfe ; and
what had been adopted ha year, he confidered
himfelf as jultified in taking as a precedent on the
prefent occafion. Upon thofe Proceeding., there-
fore,he now relied for his jollification. The Right
Honourable Gentleman, much to the regret of
the Houfe, was not prefent in his place, lad Sef-
fion,but when he was informed of what then paned
he trufted he would no longer objed to this mode
of proceeding.
Mr. FOSTER rofe to explain :—he wifhed to know,
whether there was any vote of the Committee of
Supply for more than two months? if there was,
not, he was not aware how they could vote ways
and means for the whole year, when the Supply
was only for two months.
The SPEAKER raid, that the proceeding now
propofed to be adopted, was the fame as that of
laft year ; and that which had been adopted by
the judgment of the Houfe, he was bound to con-
fider as regular. At the fame time, it was compe-
tent to any Member to oed to this mode of pro-
ceeding ; and when the Houfe direifted a different
courfe to be purfoed, be fhould fubmit.
Mr. Foarsa fair], he had not made himfelf un-
derftood. The Ad of laft Seffion for continuing
the Irifh Revenue Ads, was certainly for one
year ; but then the Supply had been voted for a
year : yet the cafe was now different, for the Sup.
ply was voted for two months, and it was propofed
to continue the Revenue for a year.
The SPEAKER faid, that with regard to the laft
point, there was, at the commencement of every
Seffion, a general vote of Supply, which he under-
flood to be a fuflicient foundation for any Member
to make a propofition fimilar to the prefent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHESVER raid, he
felt great difficulty in offering any opinion upon a
point of form, after what had fallen from the Chair,
in which the forms of the Houk had been fo dif-
tinaly explained; he alfo felt confiderable difficulty
in giving an opinion upon a point of form, con-
trary to that of the Right Hon. Gentleman behind
.him (Mr. Fofter). The Right Hon. Gentleman
bad urged, that there mutt be a vote of the Com-
mittee of Supply, to juftify the Houfe in voting
for the continuance of thefe Revenue Bills. Un-
doubtedly, whatever was voted for the current
fervice of the year, mull firft be voted in the Com-
mittee of Supply ; but the propofition his Right
Hon. Friend meant to make was, not to defray
the current fervices of the year, but to provide for
permanent charges. The Committee of Ways and
Means was appointed at the commencement of
every Seffion ; bat in that Committee, nothing
... . .

votes! in the Committee of Supply. What his
Right Hon. Friend meant to propofe was, not to
vote a Supply for the public Cervices of the year,
but to provide for the intereft of the exifting debt
of Ireland. The pradice in the two countries dif-
fered : it was ullial in Ireland to provide annually
for the permanent charges; in this country, they
were provided for at once. In the 'aft year, it
was thought proper, under the circumftances of
the times, to follow the pradice of the Parliament
of Ireland, by only voting the Revenue Bills of
Ireland for one year. The caufes which led the
Houle to adopt that mode of proceeding laft year,
would, in his opinion, induce the Houfe to ad in
the fame manner on this occafion. It was not ne-
ceffary for him to Rate the reafons why he thought
the Houfe ought to follow the example of laft
year, as they had been very ably enumerated by ,
his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Cony). The only
difference between the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Foftcr) and him was this, the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman thought it neceffary that there fhould be a
previous vote in a Committee of Supply ; on the
other hand he contended that they could not be
voted in a Committee of Supply, becaufe they
were not for the current fervice of the year, but
to defray the intereft of the debt of Ireland. and
that it would conlequently have been irregular and
diforderly to propofe them in the Committee of
Ways and Means.
Mr. Forme faid, that it was the pradice in
Ireland always, in the firfk inftance, to vote the
intereft of the debt in the Committee of Supply.
He did not mean at prefent to go into the fubjed,
but he certainly admitted that the Houfe could not
he too Elm al in fatisfying the Public Creditors.—
He merely meant to object to this plan of voting
fuch a number of duties and taxes in the bulk, fi)
as to prevent the Houfe from examining into them
in detail. He fhould not oppofe continuing thefe
duties, under the prefent circumftames, for two'
months, but he thought it irregular to vote them
for the whole year.
Lori CASTLEREAGH raid, he did not fee the
force of his Right Hon. Friend's objection, becaufe
in voting the continuance of there duties the Houfe
could not grant a greater fupply than had already
been voted. At an early period of the Seffion a
Supply for three months was, voted, and after-
wards there was another vote of Supply for two
months. Therefore, the Houfe was at prefent in
the situation of having voted the Supplies for Ire-
land, at leaft as far as related to the Military Ser-
vice, which was the molt important, for five
months ; now there fupplies, together with the
permanent charges, the amount of which was be-
fore the Houfe, would amount to a larger rum
than the duties which it was now propofed to vote,
therefore the Ways and Means would, at moll,
do no more than cover the Supplies now voted. It
was true that in the Ira Parliament the provifion
for the intereft of the National Debt, and the
Sinking Fund, was always voted in the Commit-
tee of Supply, but it really always appeared to
him to be.a very ftrange proceeding to vote that
annually which was acknowledged to be a perma-
nent charge : he always confidered it as a mere
matter of form, not founded either in juftice or
neceffity. There was no fubftantial difference be-
tween the Committee of Supply and a Committee
of the whole Houfe, becaufe it was open to any
Member to oppofe any of there duties, as well in
a Committee of the whole Houfe as in a Commit-
tee of Supply.
The CHANCELLOR OF THI Exottoprz role to
explain. It appeared that the permanent charges
of Ireland, for which they were to provide,
amounted to t 493,9611. and for this charge, a
provifion could not be made in the Committee of
Ways and Means. The military Cervices being for
the current fervice of the year, muft be voted in
the Committee of Supply, and afterwards provided
fur in a Committee of Ways and Means.
Mr. VANSITTART faid, he faw no objeilion to
the prefent mode of proceeding,which he contended
was pettedly regular.—The Route then refolved it-
felt into a Committee, Mr. Hobhoufe in the Chair.

Mr. CORRY Paid, that after what had palled
upon this occafion, and laft Seffion, it would be
unneceffary for him to obtrude himfelf upon the
Committee, by going into any detail upon the
fubjea : he &mild, however, be ready to enter
into any explanation in his power, if any Member
required it ; at prefent, however, he Ihould move
the refolutions without further preface.
Mr. CORRY then moved the following Refolu-
tions, which were agreed to :

" That it is the opinion of this Committee, that tftc Duties
which are continued by an Ad of the hit Sellion of Parlia-
ment, intitled, An Adt to continue till the asth of March,
11102. certain Ads of the IA hellion of the Parliament of
Ireland, for granting certain Duties to his Mikity, and not
repealed ; and alto certain Duties granted in the fame Selfion ;
the duration of which is limited to the asth of March, 1802,
null be further continued to the asth of March, iBO3.
" That it is the opinion of this Committee the Ads of the
laR hellion of Parliament for continuing and amending feveral
Ada for the better colledlion of the Revenue of Ireland, than
be continued."

The Houfe reftimed, and the Report was or-
dered to be received to morrow.

TRINIDAD.

Mr. CANNING faid, he role to give notice, that
he ilsould on Friday next move for certain inform-
ation relative to the cultivation and population of
the Eland of Trinidad. The information was
what he wished to have legally in his poirellion,
previous to making the motion of which he had
given notice, refpeling the file of the unclaimed
lands in that Wand.

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