Star.
London, England, 1831-03-22 00:00:00

IM FEB 1

HOUSE OF LORDS. MARC!!L 21.
Lord PLUNXETT took the trellis and his seat.
Sir A. Grant, and others from the Conimons, brought up the Prohi.
Lit ion and Mantln:nus Bill, or.ti also a private bill.
The Duke of GR 1 FTON presented a petition from Suelk, in fa-
yr, r
Lati SPrNVER rd,.l r. petition from Northumberland, in sup-
port r`' tht' Parlienantery Reform Bill ; also a petition to the same'
eft cr from Perth,
Lord ELDON presented a petition from a pariah in Galway, for an
sztensicti of the the:lye franchise.
Lord KING presented petitions for Reform from Axminster, Dun.
hemline, Newport Pagnel, Durst arton. and other parts of Scotland.
Lord MONTAGUE presented a petition from Selkirk, against re-
turns in parliament.
The Earl of ROSEBERRY presented 'a petition:in favour of the
weresere. from Linlithgow and Queensferry.
Furl DUDLEY presented .s petition to the same effect from Sedgley.
bed GODER II presented a petition front Lincoln, for reform.
T:e Duke of NORFOLK presented similar petitions from Cove of
Waterferei, Glasgow, &c.
Lot.' FARNHAM said as many of the petitions presented by the
Noble Duke were from Ireland, he could not help expressing his sur-
prise, that whilst the bill for parliamentary reform for England was
to be katl a second time that night, nothing had becn said as to the
bill:which was to affect the representation of Ireland. He was, in com-
mon with other noble lords, totally ignorant of the principles of this
bill ; he could assure his Majesty's Ministers that there were circum.
stances connected with the policy of Ireland, which rendered a similar
bill with the English one unsatiefaetory, and altogether inapplicable.
He wished to know when the bill for Ireland was to be produced ?
Earl GREY.—It seems to me that the nol,le lord adopts an irregular
course of proceeding. The noble lord asks when a bill to originate in
the other House of Parliament will be brought forward with respect to
Ireland. It is impossible. consistent with the forms of this house, to
give any answer. It is a bill which must originate in the other house,
anti lam sure no time will be lost in bringing in the measure. Whether
it may be objectionable, advantageous, or detrimental to Ireland will be
:he subject of discussion when it comes before this house; but It is the
first time I ever heard that a bill for the advantage of England cannot be
discussed without reference to measures intended for Ireland or Scot.
lard. It was not understood to be the principle upon which Reform was
discussed by Mr. Pitt. In answer to the noble lord's question, I can
say that the bill for Ireland is prepared, and will be brought forward at
tae earliest opportunity.
The LORD Cif ANCELLOR said, he had a great number of pe-1
titions to present. First, he should present petitions fron 30 corporate
bodies in different parts of the United Kingdom. Those corporate
bodies ferreted that they wished the measure for Reform in Parliament toi
pass into a law, elthough it would interfere with and destroy interests
long vested in their corporations. The Noble and Learned Lord ac-
cordingly presented thirty petitions from Stirling, Perth, Edinburgh,
Kirkcudbright, and various other parts of Scotland. He then presented
twenty-six others, making fifty-six, from corporate bodies. He had
eighty or ninety others, some signed by 14,000 or 13,000 inhabitants--
but had selectee, 56 from corporate bodies, for the purpose of Illustrat-
ing the generous feeling of his Majesty's--lie would not call them
porter classes, because they had raised themselves high by excellent
conduct—hot more bumble classes. It was impossible to pay com-
pliments to Noble Lords who had stood forward so honourably to
sacrifice their interests in boroughs, without giving similar applause to
his fellow-countrymen, who had shewn equal disinterestedness in the
relinquishment of their corporate privileges. The noble and learned
lord said he would draw one morel from a remarkable fact. He called
upon their lordships to consider how grievously those men had acted
who endeavoured to stir up a feeling of discontent and disgust against
the plan of his Majesty's mcerement. The great measure of Reform
—(A laugh from three o r Lords.) The noble and learned lord
paused a few seconds, and observed that he had often seen impatient
members laugh, whereas; if they had waited but a short time the
laugh would have been po-tponed sine die.—(A laugh.) He should
say great had been the delusion under which those individuals had
laboured to raise a feeling of hostility against the reform measure
among the lower classes. The people bad been excited by seducers,
the seducers bad resorted to extraordinary arts and plausible ar-
guments. It had been said—you, the lower classes, can get
nothing by the measure—it is founded on property ; but the
people naturally enough replied—this is the first time that any of your
kidney have said any thing to the people about their interest, and we
suspect ye---your motive is not charity. This was, however, not the
first time the stratagem had been resorted to by those who bad bad de-
signs. An instance was to be found in the Holy Scriptures. Here the
noble and learned lord cited the following passage from the New Tes-
tament :—" And Judas Iscariot answered and said, Why is not this'
ointment sold for three hundred pieces of silver and given to the poor."
—The sacred historian gave an interpretation of the motives of
Judas, and added—" This he said, not that he cared foe the poor,
but because he was a thief." The noble and learned lord then took
his east.

The Duke of WELLINGTON thought it would be better to defer
the consideration of this question until it came regularly before the
house. He wished the noble and learned lord had gone further, and
teatc‘'.. that the measure was resisted because it would introduce ulterior
r,..c.stions injurious to the Constitution.
The LORD CHANCELLOR agreed with the noble duke, that it
would be better to avoid premature discussion, but having presented so
many petitions from the lower order of the people, he had been induced
to do them justice in this statement.
The Duke of WELLINGTON said the ulterior messures would be
radical reform and universal suffrage.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, ulterior measures would not be
the result of the measure then in Parliament. At a meeting of 33,000
persons in Edinburgh they signed the petition in favour of reform
only, upon the belief that it would secure them proper representa-
tion in Parliament.
Lord ELDON brought in a bill to explain the law on the sub-
ject of Scotch marriages. The twelve judges of England had de-
clared that English marriages could not be set aside in Scotland,
and the Scotch judges had expressed a different opinion. It was
necessary the law should be clear upon the question--The bill was
read the first time.
The Earl of HADDINGTON presented a petition for reform from
Haddington, and one against it.
The Earl of CARLISLE presented several petitions for reform.
Earl GREY presented the Birmingham petition, signed by twenty.
one thousand persona In favour of the reform bill. Also a petition to
the same effect front Manchester, signed by twenty thousand persons.
The noble earl assured the noble duke that the reform bill would pre-
vent ulterior measures. He had ever been opposed to annual parlia-
ments and universal suffrage.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE presented a petition from War-
rington, signed by one hundred and sixty thousand persona, in support
of the reform bill. The noble marquis also presented two other peti-
tions, numerously signed, having the same object.
• The Duke of SUSSEX also presented similar petitions from Saint
Luke's, Chelsea; Holywell, Renfrew, and Dutufries • as did also Vis-
count Melbourne, from Glasgow ; and Lord Durliam, from various
places in the county of Durham.
BANKRUPT LAW REFORNI.
On the order of the day being read for the recommitment of the bank-
rupt law reform bill, Lord ELDON at some length, but inaudible below
the bar, expressed a hope that the motion would be postponed until the
return of the Chief Baron (Lyndhurst) from the circuit.
The LORD CHANCELLOR would not object to a short post-
ponement of the motion ; he was certain that his noble and learned
friend (Lord Eldon) was above making the great commercial question,
then under discussion, a handle for a party. (Hear.) He (the Lord
cataiitenur) had orrittvu mu ale tatter Baron, to ascertain his sentiments
on the subject, but he had not yet received his answer ; by to morrow
he expected it, however, and then be should be able to say what day
might with propriety be fixed for the re-commitment.
After a few words from Lord ELLENBOROUGH aid Li
ELDON,
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, most probably the Monday.
before Easter would be the day for the re-commitment of the bill.
Adjourned at a quarter to seven o'clock.
HOUSE OF COMMONS, Masten 21.
The SPEAKER took the chair precisely at three o'clock, at which
time there was a very full attendance of Members, and every seat was
labelled. The gallery and all the avenues leading to it were ems-
steely crowded. It being the last day for receiving private bills, the
house was occupied until near five o'clock with private business.
COLCHESTER ELECTION.
Sir ROBERT HERON reported from the Committee on this elec-
tion. that the return of 31r Spottiswood was null and void. On the
motion of the Hon. Member, a new writ was ordered to be issued.
GALWAY ELECTION.
Mr. WARD brought up the report of the Committee on this elec-
tion, which declared the sitting member duly elected.
'kraut or rarviLzar4
Sir R. INGLIS said he bad to request the attention of the house to
a subject which he was about to bring under their notice. It related to
a newspaper which he had had put into his hands. It was a tameela-
don to him, however, in bringing the subject forward, that he was set
one of the parties directly affected. He never had at any duo men to
complain of any paragraphs affecting himself; but he should be as.
worthy of a seat in that house if he had not, when such a paper was put
into his hands, called attention to it. It was extremely im=
when on the eve of a discussion like the one of that night, that
able members should not be labouring under the influence of threats.—
He, therefore, requested the serious consideration of the house to the
attacks that had been made on what tem called the unconstitutional
conduct on the part of all thews who fooled the meows. Ms paper
to which be referred was the Tilos. (Heat) He understood it was a
respectable paper as repelled talent, but he could nqt think it respect..
able as regarded its motives. (Hear.) Other papers had been equally,
violent, but be had chosen ember, as the Times was one oftboso "INF

ranked first in point of circul- Coo. to select that. Foe his part, he was
not in the habit of reading the Times—(hear, hear), but he was told
the paragraph he complained of was one of a series that had been daily
Issued since the Ist elblarch, &Imlay ma which the noble paymaster of
the forces brought in Ma bill of ndorm. They bad regularly continued
itskto the prompt day, .cad Iterevlowas lea to degrade the house, and
bold it up to odium with** people. (Hair.) 'They were legislating with
double odds with indithduale in the gallery against them. (Hear,
hear, hear.) Re Avoid, themthre, as a member of that house,
betray his duty to his comsat:peas, as would also every other
member, If they allowed not one, but a large portion of its mem-
bers to be insulted in the way they had been by this paragraph. The
hon. baronet then read extracts from the Times' leading article of. Mon.
day, the 14th of March, the reading of which was received by consi-
derable chest ing in the house. He bad no wish to check fair discussion,
he had no such object in view, but it could not be endured that para-
graphs like the one in question were to be published, day after day,
with impunity. He would repeat, he did not stand up there to crush
free discussion ; but it was very desirable that a breach of privilege,
calculated to disturb freedom of debate, should be brought under atten-
tion. He believed the bat time that a similar motion to the one he was
about to make, was made by Mr. Fox, against a paper then in exist-
ence, called the " Public Advertiser." He (Sir R. Inglis) did not
consider himself affected by the charge, but he considered that by
allowing such a paragraph to go forth to the world without the ex-
pressed opinion el the house upon it, the respect and sonfidence of the
people would become forfeited. He should move, therefore, first that
the paragraph in question he read by the Clerk of the House. The pa-
ragraph, which was as follows, was accordingly read :
1. When, night after night, borough nominees rise to infest the pro.
ceedings of the House of Commons with arguments to justify their own
intrusion into it, and their continuance there, thus impudently maintain-
ing what the lawyers call an adverse possession,' in spite of judgment
against them, we really feel Inclined to ask why the rightful owners of the
house should be longer insulted by the presence of such unwelcome in-
mates? It is beyond question a pieceof the broadest and coolest effrontery
in the world for these hired lacireys of public delinquents to stand up as
advocates of the disgraceful service they have embarked in. Of two condi-
tions, these persons must be in one or other: they must either have bought
the close borough seat which they fill, or they have sold themselves bodily
to him who has the disposal of it. It Is Impossible to get into parliament
for a close borough but on either of the above conditions. Yet, is there a
single individual amongst them who has had the truth or honesty to tell
the House of Commons, I have paid 5,0001. for this seat, the confirm-
once of which I am now defending;' or 'I have sold myself to the pa.
tmn of the borough, for his permission to be one of his members ?"
The Hon. MEMBER then resumed. He felt it unnecessary after
what he had already said to add another word upon the subject. He
should, therefore, move that the paragraph re.id was a fabe and scan-
dalous libel upon the House, tending to deter Illembers thereof from the
I discharge of their duties therein, and tending to alienate from the house
the respect and confidence of their fellow subjects.
An Honourable MEMBER seconded the motion, and complained
of an attack made by the press on himself. He did not speak unad.
visedly, or without due deliberation on the subject, but he felt it was
the bounden duty of that House to check that course of abuse and in-
vective, in which almost the unanimous press of the country had joined.
Lord ALTIIORP rose merely to put it to the Hon. Member whether
it were advisable on the eve dumb an important discussion as pressed
then upon the house to propose such a resolution without giving pre-
vious notice to the house ?

Sir IL INGLIS considered that it was not usual to postpone the con-
sideration on a question of privilege.—(Hear from the opposition.)
Mr. CA LCRA FT did not believe that the paragraph in question
could at all havr the tendency which the hon. member tor Oxford seemed
to conceive. He thought there aas nothire so much calculated to
lessen the confidence of the people in that House as any attempt on its
part to infringe the liberty of the press. He did not believe that the
paragraph in (potion was libellous, but even if it were considered so
the Attorney-General was the proper person to take notice of it.
Mr. BA RING agreed, but on different grounds, with the honourable
member who had just sat down. He hoped the subject would be left
as it was, that what had passed would operate as a notice, that while
the liberty of discussing what passed in that house with freedom might
go on, yet that those discussions were to be conducted with a little more
decency.
Mr. PERCIVAL felt considerable difficulty at all times in ad.
dressing the house, and be bad not intended doing so on the present
occasion. He certainly could not by any means agree with the hon.
gentleman who had just sat down, that the eubject,having been brought
before the house, ought to be passed over. He had not long ago given
his opinion upon the state of the press in this country, and it now
being mooted, if the House of Commons got rid of it in the way
proposed, the house would lobe its authority, and lose its character, by
such a proceeding, more than by any :act of violence of which the
house could be guilty.—l say (continued the honourable gentleman) the
question having been brought before the house if we decline to proceed
—it we decline to visit this gross breach of privilege as we ought to do
—if we shrink from doing our duty on this occasion, we give an awes-
dancy to the press which it cannot obtain by any other means. (Cheers.)
It may be a question whether at this dine the subject ought to have
been brought forward; but it having been brought forward, I appre-
hend there is but one course to pursue, namely, to vote it a breach of
privilege and to follow that up in the usual way. 1 was not present
when the honourable baronet brought forward his motion, and I
do not know, therefore, whether he called the attention of the house or
not to the fact of this being's part of a keg-continued series of para-
graphs, which could only have been writteu for the purpose of pre-
venting hon. gentlemen from doing their duty, to prevent them from
giving their votes against the reform bill, and for the purpose of li-
belling their characters if they did vote for that bill. The paragraph
to which my friend has called the attention of the house was the climax
of this series ; and it is impossible to doubt that .the writer meant
thereby to deter men from doing their duty—to hold them up to scorn
and reprobation if they didto represent them as infamous members
for boroughs, who would not dare to again Ince their constituents if a
general election took place—to render the whole discussion of the house
of commons contemptible in the eyes of the country, and to promul-
gate a belief that that dismission was conducted by men who had no
right to be there, or to vote in the affairs of the country, being only the
slaves—the hired lacqueys of corrupt peers. ((bars.) This was the
only intention with which it could have been written. I thank my
hon. friend for having brought forward this motion ; for, having thus
brought
vir
pri —you cannot suffer the press to be brought before the atten-
tion o the house after this long series of attack on the privileges and
liberties of the house, you cannot pass over it in silence, without, in
my opinion, a great dereliction of your duty to the country and con.
stitution.

Sr FRANCIS BURDETT rose and mid, I am not quite aware
of the exact words that have been used, but I agree with the lion.
Member who has just down, that the Press has with very great per-
severance, with very great integrity, and with very great abill:y advo-
cated the cause which is now at issue between the boroughmongers and
the country. lam not the least afraid of any course that may be
taken on this occasion. Any..course that may be taken will tend te
bring to issue the opinion of the country upon the corrupt system which
has long existed ; and I will trust to any Jury— to any tribunal—to any
collection of Englishmen who have the slightest feeling, In a word, to
say collection of men in England, except those whom I have now the
honour of addressing within these walls—(hear, and a laugh,)—the
whole subject with more than perfect confident* I declare that lam
perfectly satisfied of the fate of this house, bad the fiat sot gone forth
and as their character being libelled by an honest writer Ina public
paper stating that fact. Why are they ashamed of it ? The comp-
tion of returning members to this bonne was as notorious as the arm at
noon-day; and when we are forced to see limbers get up because the
privileges of the House of Commons are violated forlootb--locasse

the Press states the exact state of the thiag-1 should like to ask the
honourable Dl ember who is so tender of those privileges, why be over.
looked the vital and fundamental privileges of the country, that neither
Peers, nor the Press, tar any man, however high, being allowed to
make a traffic of the seats of that house, without its being considered
one of the greatest breaches. Those who talked of the privileges of the
home being violated by an honest writer asserting the truth, knew that
there was a constant violation of their privileges by Peers and knaves
trafficking in seats in;that house. Why did not these sensitive gentle-
men direct their attention to that constant notorious breach of their pri-
vileges, instead of the hypocrisy of profaning to support their privi-
leges by attacldag the pens of the many. To talk of the character
of that home wide the repla was dilmions—why their diameter was
gone long ago.—(Chswe sod bragiage Hs was satisfied that the times
was now come when the hem @ad el
marking in besought wadi
be pot an end to. Whiehmaresenes might he adoekied, be andiond
that house wee seas ters tolussottnee &bake on the abbst
that bad ban et. It was spinet reason to sums. that die
hobs bona belt as and Judge. He himself bed been Mk
oilseed as a llb of that bass, sod hai sabred what he asoldored
its greatest pashinesou Ha sr mmteseed the dam who sub s sys-
tems as was at proem parsed woad have to be spoken of whh the
utmost tenderaess ; but oboe deo year 1807, Aft Lord Casdoneagb
and Mr. Pereeval wine betas& in thin seandalewly, tralleddag spasm
and when they mad SW Ul ha. member for not big peso to
vets In favour of the asassee 01811% thLraWis bed
tains notice of this it b bey mum Pyle.
Cheers.) lb speed .=
velar he the Tinee ombely, bit the
ought to bus dm aim/ le within,. (Chem)
He amid boo* flatter based bey woad do so. but be thought that
this was deed& ebbe. He was in
sodded that It they bad
whet the poem aniassoksk votes would bane no no
sabot them Way Wslbded se the wild. In this idsw et she nos,
it was a raateer ofjporleat indifiteses whiner sears the besenglones.
!prs permed. He borsht they would baby be ete blieensetsi e.to

adopt any proceedings against the writer of this paragraph at this pe-
riod of fermentation ; but if they did, he was quite sure that the da-
mage or compensation awarded for any thfringenient on tbsirwappossd
virtue would be extremely small.
Sit C. WETHERELL was surprised at the speech
which the hon. member for Westminster had just delivered. hews.)
The hon. baronet, who set himself up as a man of peat popularity,
and the advocate of the most liberal measures. whose advocacy had gone
so far as to induce him to proclaim himself in that house a maintainer
of the doctrines of liberty and equality. Such was the man who had
addressed the house in a speech more dictatorial in language, more dic-
tatorial in matter. and more dictatorial in prirciple, than any which he
(Sir C. Wetherell) had ever heard since he became a member of that
house. It surpassed in arrogance and dictatorship of tone all the
speeches which he had ever heard, even by the hon. baronet himself.
According to the hon. baronet's proposition, such members as repro.
tented boroughs, such as he had the honour to represent, ought not to
vote on this question, and thus, by one full sweep, sweep out 160 mem-
bers. To much a proposal he would never accede, and he hoped soother
hon member would.

Sir CHARLES FORBES said, if the hon. baronet, who had so
properly brought the subject before the house, bad gone back to the
Times of the 2d of March, he would find language not less deserving of
punishment. In that paper it was mid, that if the borough members
voted against reform, they would bring down on themselves the ven,
geance of the people. He had brought down the paper in his pocket,
thinking to bring it before the house, but was advised not to do so, as
it would only bring the libel into notice. The paragraphs were the at-
tacks of cowardly assassins—they were anonymous libels, and if their
authors had courage they would be assassins. He had heard them
spoken of with the greatest indignation out of the house, and had never
beard them defended till the hon. baronet had stood up in their defence.
The muse was worthy of the defender, and the defender of the cause.
He would do his duty, and take his stand against the revolutionary
measure; and if it passed, he would never wish to enter a House of
Commons so formed. (A laugh.)
Lord ALTHORP.—Sir, it is impossible for me to deny that the
paragraph brought under the notice of the house Is a breach of the
privileges of this house. (Cheers.) But I think it is &different ques.
don, in what manner we ought to treat this publication. Upon a
question which interests the people of the country in the way and to the
extent that this Reform question interests them, it is true that violent
language—that unjustifiable language—is used by writers and advo.
cotes on both sides the question— (Cheers front all aides)—but when
the Honourable Baronet says no attacks have been made, except
upon those against the measure I must deny the truth of that remark.
Do not we who advocate the measure see ourselves daily called
revolutionists ?—(Cheers.) Do we not see entwine •attacked for
endeavouring to produce revolution ? Upon a question of this kind I
must admit that the public press has used language that cannot be jus-
titled ; but I appeal to the prudence of the house, whether this is a
case in which the privileges of the house should be indicated with any
degree of severity when the public feeling Is so strongly excited. I have
experience enough to know, that when questions of a breach of privi-
lege are brought forward, it is difficult to induce the house to look at
it in a temperate manner. But if we are carried away by our feelings
now, I ask the house, whether such proceedings will be likely to reflect
credit or tlifficulty in point of form ; but if not inconsistent with the form
of the house, I beg to move the previous question, instead of coming to
a decision on the motion.

On the amendment being put,
Mr. CAMPBELL said they must all be aware, that in times of pub-
lic excitement like the present, newspapers contained paragraphs which
strictly considered, were breaches of privilege. During the Queen's
trial, and the debates on the Catholic question, almost all newspapers
contained breaches of privileges ; but what would be the consequence
if they were all prosecuted,? (Hear, hear.) The paragraph now
complained of appeared a week ago, and no one could say that anything
injurious had been the consequence.
Mr. WYNN felt sorry he could not support the amendment of his
noble friend. Whether it was necessary to have brought the subject
before the house was a different question, but the paragraph having
been brought under its consideration, he thought the house could not
desert Its privileges. (Hear.) Considering the very important; nature
of the question of reform. and the great excitement it produced, he was
disposed to allow a great latitude of discussion ; but the paragraph in
question was an instance of that despotic and arbitrary system of liberty
we bad seen elsewhere. (Hear, hear.) The libel, had evidently in-
creased in number by the forbearsace of the house, and if the present
libel was passed over, he did not see how they could punish any future
libeller. (Hear.) He was aware that he must pay the penalty of giving
this opinion, but he could not be deterred from the discharge of his
duty. (Hear, hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM mid he had heard the speech of his right
honourable friend and late colleague, with regret, but not with sur-
prise. (Hear.) He felt anxious that the house should give its sup-
port to the important measure proposed by ministers--(a laugh;) but,
however ardent his desire on that point, there was one feeling pre-
dominant in his heart--that was, that the subject should be discussed
la's manner that should not endanger the existence of any of the
institutions of the country. (Hear, hear.) lie was sorry that at a
moment when the public were waiting with breathless expectation
their decision on the question of reform, that the honourable mean.
her for Oxford University should have thought proper to delay_ the
discussion by bringing forward a question of privllne.—(Hear,
bear.)—Was the strong language used by writers on the question
of reform all on one side ? Day after day, and Sunday after Sun.
day, its supporters were reviled and threatened. He was frequently
asked what would his constituents in Cockermouth say to his support
of the measure ? He did not complain of this—he only felt it a stimulus
to persevere in his duty. (Hear, beer.) Even that borne, an hon.
baronet had said the Reform would pull the Crown off the King's head,
and that language gave encouragement to writers on that side. If the
language used on one side should be punished, the example must be
followed on the other, and the public voice would be stilled. (Hear,
hear.) They might as well close the gallery and shut out the publics'
sneer but by such a proceeding they might put in peril the institutions
of the country. The paragraph might be a breach of their privileges;
but if it were, then the house were ponies and should not be judges.
(Rear, blew.) The language used in the house on the question of Re-
form was quite unusual ; the necessity of nomination boroughs and of
venal boroughs was contended for; end the use of such language in the
house naturally induced a greater freedom of discussion out of doors.
(Hear, bear.) A contest with the public press at this moment could
not but be considered a dangerous experiment, and might lead to dig.
mthances of the peace and even endanger the institution of the
country. (Hear, hear.)
Sir H. HARDINGE said, he bad expressed his opinion that the re-
form bill, if it passed, would pull the crown from the King's had ;
but be was not on that secouut to be brought into comparison with the
libeller in the paragraph before the house. (Hear, hear.) He was at
present Member for a Borough ; but he had for nine years represented
a large constituency, sod be felt himself as perfectly free to give an in-
dependent vote as he did then. (Hear' hear.) He never would allow
himself to be deterred by clamour out of doors from doing his duty ;
nor should he be detested by any thing in that house from the fullest
expression of his opinions. (Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said his right bon. friend had never intended
in any thing be said to abridge the liberty of speech in that House. He
his hon. friend the member for the University of Oxford to re-
bcoeflieiectd that the persons he called on to decide the question of libel were
the person libelled, and who after deciding that the publication was a
libel wen then to award the punishment.— (Hear bear, hear.)
The people had a peculiar dislike to such proceedings, tied tide useel
, eilket woe to exalt the person so punished by the basso Is As teak ef
martyrs. His hen. Mandl the member for Westminster bad =kW a
=bisuswey rellsoft so tbit constitution of the bones. The
de:died thM the was a libel, and estuinitted blot be&
Mod teliewg*; the essetopsente of which was that be was mamma
de tobiegit dieWastminsteep.illear hear.) Unless lit ones 'factual
Ifieu be *nibs the blase should not become a Jed, in its own
.area; multhat he the present ems they would act more wisely by pass
*ever the h without further notice, as the notice already takes
alit would be wieejsat foe waralag.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir F. 1111.1111DITT said, borrower much he might regard the bon.
baronet's dotimaides, that he would do his duty fearlessly without re.
gad is pddis dismour, he shsuld do his duty, certainly, without rwrd
to Oft elifineter, but with wet rape% for public ophsion.—(ll-ear,
WA) The hen. baronet bed raid be bed se seeetheents.

Sir. H. RAIDING add be aid M. ray be kilo assthsenti

fie though the beams!is segenwited was Mie of those which the
bill proposed to dkinnehlos, k hid as many inhabitants now as when
the elective franddee hhe ssafand on it, or as it had at the time of the
revoludom
Fir F. BURDETT must say that the honourable baronet's not
having a large body of ocestitusom naturally detracted from the
=not' his opinion on the resent =Went. For himself he was
t the measure of Reform, instead of pulling the cruwa Mot the
ging's bead, would fix it more firmly, and make it sit ender en his
brow.—( Hear, bear.)
Sir R. INGLIS said be should consider it an abandonment of
mg Amy not to persevere in hie motion. All admitted that is
was a libel—and unless they were prepared to sham
they must perform their duty. He is Oh
knew ep hie Iket near es by a second. that the Attothey4diesd
ANY te the priest sad radiates of the Timm newspaper
-fa a
Ma HUNT nee heidst she of thanks whim sestkeed Dose
doe. If honourable palms§ of
NEM put him down by
cross tesedes their palms would be put -tioa nimigreater trial dun
Akhildai that thsee was he judge in the had that would not dlerisegpiegit VW, was it amok aka he jury in the land
wadi think elikedee P Bag weed in the piempetir. however cost
the kmgaide, whe peek* huh (Cries it He, 20 Osman I) He
was habfes hew entneher behind NH thee le wadi de dm Veen
Weddle. Mem) He was esty amiss ist the hew shield pre-
! .midissen de de Ashton to the km, end peeve thaneekes shoeseeksee dlto ebelltelltire =116.1 sentiekei odahotdd
be beim die keels bin they eadd MIN to akl&
01001IHRLL mid, lee pressing perseed by the issesande

baronet was, to pronounce the paragraph a libel, and then to direct the
Attorney-General to prosecute the publisher. Was that justice or
liberality to send the writer to trial, with a sentence of coexists nation
'passed on hint? (Hear, hear.) 'the real question was, we( the pars.
graph substantially fa/se ? Did any one deny that there were nominee,
of pews in that house ? Lard Coke had slid the whole legitlature could
not make a man a judge in his own calm, and should Mat hour be-
come judges in their own cause ? He should certainly oppose the hon.

Sir R. PEEL said, as the question had been brought heron. the
house they could not escape from the discussion, and be should fear.
lessly do his duty. He considered it of the first importance thet the
question should be dispassionately discussed, without reference to fees.
lags of individuals ; and, before the house was called upon to vote fat
any single resolution, that, in the first place, all theistic-leased the whole
resolutions formed thereon ought to be read over to the house.
Sir R. INGLIB said the whole secret had been read at last three
hours.

The ATTORNEY-GENERAL expressed his astonishment that
the subject should have been pressed forward after having bar
suffered to rest so long without being mentioned ; and he was still
more surprised at the mode of proceeding called for by the honourable
baronet to have the number of extracts from the newspapers teas
over to the house. The reason of his surprise was, that the hoe.
baronet must have been acquainted with the circumstances long
enough before that might. The honourable baronet who had mag,
the motion bad spoken to him (the Attorney-Ehnen!) in prier,
about it on Tuesday last. (Hear, hear, hear, from the Ministerial
benches.) And be considered it an unfair proceeding that h,
I should now be called 'won to prosecute, he having been in this
I manner brought to give:his opinion in private. The question at that
time of the honourable baronet he (the Attorney-General) under.
stood to be, whether or not what bad appeared in this paper ea,
a breach of privilege : on that score he thought there could not be a
question ; but that the articles were false he did rot think so. And he
thought that so far front their preventing hon. members front voting
according to their wishes on the measure, that the very opposite effect
would be the consequence. With regard to the measure itself. he (the
Attorney-General) was satisfied that trusting to the honour of the mem-
bers of that house, who must be convinced of the absolute necessity of
the Reform proposed—that the measure must be carried by a very large
majority.. (Hear, hear from the Ministerial benches; No, no, front
the Opposition.) He bad not been in at the commencement, but he
was truly surprised when he did enter the house to find them in brisk
debate on this minor matter, after it had been suffered to sleep for ten
days--(hear, bear)—and that it should have been brought forward to
foil the most important question that had ever come under the conside.
ration of that honourable house. (Hear, hear.) He therefore Consi-
dered that it would he much more proper and consistent with decency
that the original question should at once be gone into.
Sir C. WETHERELL said that the terms in which the Resolutions
were copied from those of Mr. Fox were an 'authority to which be
thought the Gentlemen opposite ought to yield a ready compliance.
Sir ROBERT PEEL rose in explanation, and denied that this ques.
don had been brought forward to prejudice the measure of his Majesty's
government. The hon. baroret then recapitulated at length the pleas
that he had previously urged, why all the articles and resolutions should
be read over. He was much interrupted, and sat down amidst vodfe-
roes calls of " Question."
Mr. SLANEY reprobated the bringing forward of this question on
this night, after soaring it to sleep for ten days, he thought that would
tend more effectually to bring the opposition into discredit. The hon.
member concluded with expressing his anviction of the necessity of
reform, and his admiration of the measure
Sir R. INGLIS rose to amign his reasons deferring the quesdon
till that night, but he could not btiheard amidst the ales of " %tea-
don, question." We understood him to blame the learned Attorney.
General for having mentioned the private conversation, without having
stated all that had transpired at the interview.
After some confused conversation, strangers were ordered to with-
draw, and the gallery was cleared. Strangers were excluded for up-
wards of fire minutes; and of a sudden the outer doors were burst
open, and the people rushed in like furits, in despite of all the endea-
vours of the messengers and door-keepers ; but however the mistake
had occurred, it was not necessary to again clear the gallery, for the
house did not divide on the question, but considerable confusion existed
for some time.

Sir. J. GILBNIET, whohad been in custody of the Sergeant at Arms,
was ordered to he discharged on payment of the fees.
Sir G. CLERK rose, and, as we understood, asked permission to
present a petition against the Reform Bill ;—but amidst the noise,—
(No, Do.)—he would consult the convenience of the house, and do so at
some other period.
Sir H. HARDINGR said, that as he understood that the bill to be
read that night was a bill to reform the representation of England only,
before the house was called upon to vote on that bill separately, the
house should hays been made acquainted with the bill for reforming the
representation of Ireland, and that bill should have at least been read a
ant time.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in explanation, said, that the Irish bill
was prepared, but he had deemed it neon:omq to excite fresh discusake
on that subject, as the general plan was comprehended in the English
bin, which had already been ro fully diseumed in the house.
hit H. H ARDINOE did not consider that reason conclusive, and
said, that in a question of so much im tance it was desirable that the
' House should have been in possession of all the particulars of the
measure relating to Ireland, before they were called upon to vote upon
the other bill.

REFORM DILL.
The SPEAKER read the order of the day for the second reading of
the bill for reforming the representation of England.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL rose to move that the bill be now read a
second time.

Sir R. VIVIAN said, that in rising to give his opinion en this ma
mamas question, he was desirous to remove any impression that might
inlet in the public mind, by supposing that he was individually inter-
ested in any boroughs; he begged most distinctly to declare, that be
had no connection whatever with any of the boroughs in the mum
where bir property lay. But he considered that where the right was es-
acised by a few Ina corporation, that it would be more diScult for s
member to obtain his return than when the right to vote would be
vested la the bands of the many. With regard to his own conethants,
be was by no means assured that they ware in favour of the manure
for reform. ( Hear, bear.) He thought that the measure &bent to
be introduced by the noble lord would be attended with much danger,
and be could not vote for a measure of such a tendency. The maim
which had been proposed by Lord Grey (then Mr. Grey) in inn, was
web the ease as the present measure, and so was that which had pro-
Timely been brought In by Mr. Pitt ; but be was convinced that his Ma.
jetty's ministers of the present day hod s much more admits teak now
to 6111110•11.1 T, and that they had chosen a most unfortunate Mee to king
the metherre /award. Had a moderate Reform been premed, be neighs
bore been =died a have glees his silent vote to such a maniamiwithent
haviegvisisted idsu=s =deadens ; but of the immeneeammesod
by his he was convinced that it meant but
revolutioltrallweeld p to fassioy all the imehodens of dee bad, sod
be subversive of the vary beds of the eseedindae- Usk piss bed
already been developed es having been selenlated no Mow the skald
interest, and to treat with reek's= hand ow mat =I our ammo ;
but however the public voles might be reload in favour of the neseinee,
and whatever Mini be ndott snail upon himself by the est, be was
determined to enpom h, not gamely on a genentl principle, but down
to its dendis. Mir, hese, beer.) The hollog woe so smog, dna
these vie wan ',pond to it had no other alternative but to
B ose he being mad a second time. (Hear, hear, hese.)—
in=of constitution bad never been productive of good to a country
of thee tisseriptien ; the laws hod either been hies& to the
peeps by the teases of an army, or by the King tusking based/
sew However However much the people bad been suited, wed =twit -
stimilog the use that had been made of the Rises sans, he (Sir
R. Vyvyan) we determined to oppose the ohmage la our sannths•
tics; and he thought that the events which had taken plate in other
countries might have been admonitory to his Majesty s radium t
and if .they pressed their measure, and MU eats 1, he eanhl
warn them to take we that they were not at a future period
before the bar of that house and dealt with se others had been =lt
In similar circumstance'. He would ask his Majesty's govioneoe
if there were any foreign nqpadoes, oe'any other adeeamill, in
their bringing formal then leans= es hoggerutnely at iii doe!
There artainly had been some Impressioa hili at thi pubis Ili= in
consequence d}rar distress ; but it was not the decimal= OM
Duke of Wellagnie in another place that no Worm wm=
nor yet the refuel d the late ransom to institute a pa
my Inquiry, that hod waked up the public ezeiNelellat OW
there had =lead the Political Vries al: mends ham dos
Woe ; err hot die orreistkos is other piste• id the dhot I but It
had hose deftly the conduct diet had ken goomosi * gevenumot gig
W ben the emu et the pubgedisson The possum* bah ems
in wit lisi rid i=dreiraihmk ad , oilier etilhh
they god of
y wile old sow they bei
brought •
goviod Iltedout, to whioh iv nos pet *Igo& Re
would
raid die Mains that they wen Wiwi ter id: seats an the
Tirseetwy gumshoe to ibe rev tuna that day declared waned
Itstosum....lle hid me sioroseadoe ea at dons ea the subject, and
he was persuaded the pestle bad Me nisi expected= her the mos-
sure, that it was to remove all the& tnembho—sive work to the anew
ployed,,end to =the them all months bad jar=
would all fix the tithes to be wadi charge thi
as the aura of al don pieraMeo. sonidiag of the beneldet oo
gemmorally would nip be the arras et sousiii eenrpie. Be ou-
tmoded ihet el the starapthes Odle beeighe veal be oersted In 61
toots. A weedy yield be gothwith sought ht the bast. Witt'
:Tscthe shoonaing siktionikto et fit, the Noble lard.
p:s t•
oinly-teld thorn diet sea he raid of outteoqueettp—( Hee,L)
If the than were Maid, wail the met ea be stacked aim ? "iiir
national Nei and toes imposed, as ft wee she* said, bye owl°

parliament which did not represent the people and had no right to vats
them ?—(Hear.) The spoliation of the great sums would be followed
by that of the small. The small holder in the savings banks would go
ext.—(lleer, hear.) What security could they have for any property
from the new representatives, when amongst those proposed as such,
there was one Mr. Mills, who had said. in one of his books that
the increased value of land created by legislation belonged not to
the individual but to the king ? He would remind them of Fer-
dinand refusing to acknowledge the bonds of the Cortes, and of
the proceedings of the different administrations which had sue.
ceeded each other in the first French revolutipn, The Gera titat,
in 1788, obtained first the voting together of the three states ;
they then, of themselves, changed their name, and after exciting
intimidation by massacres, and aided by the influence of a bribed press,
--(cheers); this, on the 4th of Augnet, 1789, in one great debate, forced
the Convention to concede the tithes, the manorial rights, and the rights
of chase. When this blessed reform was achieved, the king was clod
the popular, the patriot king. Was that no lesson ? Many days did
not elapse ere that Ling was taken in his carriage to Paris, with the
*reads of the two gendarmes, killed in defending We person, carried be-
fore him, before the popular and patriot king : (hear, hear.) Trust to
.he breeze of a fleeting popularity, and there is no stability foe the
state. How did the great states of former times, how did Rome
and Venice meet an emergency, or •a popular movement ? They
.trengtbened 'the executive, created dictates, councils of ten ;
and for his part he should prefer despotism to democracy. They
had been told, by a noble lord opposite (the Lord Advocate) that
liberty was the daughter of riches, and, as a consequence, that freedom
should be extended with wealth. Did liberty follow riches in Greece
and Rome? in Persia? He would remind the awned lord of the
opinion of a noble lensed, who was perhaps one of the greatest poets
this country had ever produced—he meant Lord Byron. That illus-
trious person, standing in the ruins of a temple, with the Coliseum on
his right hand, and the Palatine before him, said—
There is the moral of all human tales,
'Tis but the same rehearsal of the past ;
First freedom and then glory—when that fails,
Wealth, vice, corruption—barbarism at last.
lie objected to the plan, that it gave an undue influence to towns. It did
away with all the advantages of the variety of franchise—(Na, hear)
—returning persons of ell classes, all interests, and all opinions. Com-
merce, agriculture, the colonies, the army, the navy, were now all re.
presented ; but the new Parliament would be a tyrinnleal assembly—tt
would represent only one class, the 101. voters, unless briber y were
adopted. As to the right of voting, no particular individual had it, or
all had the right. The great towns which had grown up since the revo.
lotion should he allowed to send Members. But it was one thing to
give them the franchise, and another to destroy the boroughs. He con-
sidered the demarcation, as to population, which was to limit the towns
entitled to the franchise, as capricious and arbitrary. Under these cir-
cumstances it wee his intention, on the Bill being rejected, as he felt
confident it would—to propose some resolution assuring the country that
they were determined to strengthen the representation. He did not state
a plan; but the resolution would show that, while they were opposed to
a revolutionary measure, destructive of the King's authority, they were
disposed to a constitutional improvement; it would go to the full extent
of what was understood to have been the plan of ministers, before a
certain occurrence had induced them to change. In conclusion, be
should move that the Bill be read that day six months.
Mr. CARTWRIGHT, in seconding the motion, opposed the bill,
as dangerous and subversive of the constitution. He must observe, th tt
with respect to the petitions of the people, two-thirds asked for that
which was not befbre theca—the ballot (hear). He would not 'go into
the details of the measure • he considered it more manly to oppose it
altogether (hear.) If there was any discontent at its rejection, the re-
sponsibility would rest with those who had brought it forward without
sufficient reflection. He should be glad, however, to hear of some
moderate measure being introduced (hear.)
Mr. SHEIL gave his support to the measure, which he considered
a constitutional one, which not only acceded to the just demands of
the people, but would add lustre and stability to a house, the mainstay
of British liberty and British power. The Hon. Member for Corn-
wall had embraced a variety of topics ; he had begun by making a
most singular attack upon Ireland. After expatiating on 'the danger-
ous doctrines of Mr. Mill, he bad passed to Venice, Rome, and
the French revolution. Now, be was somewhat surprised that amidst
all these topics, not one word had been said in favour of the Cornish
boroughs—(hear, hear); he had expected some illustration of the ad-
vantage of those boroughs, which he (Sir H. V.) had so particular an
occasion of observing. The Hon. Member for Cornwall had expatiated
on the bill as a dangerous and unprecedented measure; but he denied
that it was either dangerous or unprecedented. The manner in which
the Parliament had dealt with the boroughs of Ireland; on the
occasion of the Union, as had been shown by the Hon. Member for
Waterford (Mr. O'Connell), proved that what was now proposed was
not without precedent; and not only had boroughs been abolished, but
a whole House of Commons was abated, and 100 members added to
that house. It was urged that they had no right to change the coned-
tuency. Why, what had they done hs 'the ease of 40s. freeholders of
Ireland they had swept of 200,000 votes of Irish peasants, if they
pleased, but British subjects after all. Was not that changing the
constituency ? and why ? to meet the emergency of the case ; and if
no mercy were to be shown to these voters, when the emergency of the
case required the sacrifice, what in the name of heaven, of virtue, and
of truth was there peculiar in the confederated and rotten boroughs,
that they should be spared when the public interests required their
suppression ? (Loud cheers.) But it had been said that the
system worked well ? How could it work well, when there was a
mass of discontent from one end of the country to the other ? And
would any man deny that such was the feet? As to the pros being
virulent, it was only following its vocation—it only represented the
public mind. Take away the cause of discontent, and the virulence of
the press, as it was termed, would cease. The discontent was not ima-
ginary—it was not an hypochondriac's dream—it was the gangrene that
was traceable into the vitals of the state. But mischievous as was the
bill, it seemed the honourable member for Cornwall had a measure ;
what it was, he would not expound. The patient was admitted to be
in a bad way—all the other physicians were wrong—one had a re-
medy—but when asked for it, the reply was, " tell you when
I have compounded it." (Cheers and laughter.) Now, what we
the system in Cornwall ? Did it represent the people ? Were
they to legislate on fictions? Were they on " idealisms" to build
the great fabric of legislation ? (Loud cheers.) It wu an idealism
that Peers were not to interfere in returning members to that house :
what was the fact It was alleged, and never yet disputed, that 158
Peers and others returned a majority of that house. Was that majority
the representatives of the people, or of individuals ? Bat this bill
would open a wide inlet to bribery—was there no bribery now? Was
it not a notorious fact that seats wee openly bought and sold, btought
toe sort of Parliamentary bazaar ? (Hear.) They were so much mat-
ters of arrangement, matrimonial and otherwiee, that be expected, it
the boroughs continued, that ladies would have settled on them Galion
tor a jointure, and Old Sarum for pin money. (Much laughtei.)
True, there were statutes against bribery, but they only made matters
nue they only increased the hypocrisy ; for, with Smuts virtue,
they did not punish the crime, but the atrocity of permitting deteetton.
like) Was that fancy; was it an idealism ? Nov the people were
fond of virtue i • and as that was tbe eau, seeing such sales, such bribe-
ries, such proceedings, was it surprising that the people started up and
resolved to expel from the Temple of the Constitution what were so fin;
holy and monstrous? (Cheers) The deformitities, the close boroughs,
were defended as having let in so much eloquence and merit, and the
names were mentioned. The list was splendid, it was true ; but, though
they were nursed by the borough system, yet had not all of them spoken ,
against it ? Mr. Dunning was a reformer; Mr. Pitt, before he was a
Minister, was a reformer • Mr. Fox wee a Parliamentary, reformer,
so was Mr. Sheridan, and most of those who were mentioned—
what became of the argument ? (Hear, hear.) The illastrious
dead were invoked in favour of the boronghs, and if they visited
the tombs they found a majority in favour of Padiamentaty Re.
twin. The splendid contingency was en their side. It was added
sarcutically—that the aristocracy would be alketed—.aad yet. that some
how or another, the influence of the house of Bed/oed and of Tavistock
was preserved. If that were tutu as applicable term war It not
quail)? true as regsrded the other ham& 11 Could the of,
else preserved without wastairsiatthat of another ? Tkr/ off
clk ari would not be destroyed, but it wrack at tlieSitots of the
!rn/TT cut at their clandestine Wane* and
au ts, and brought all into open day. By the mew" arise con.todacy trould be strengthened, and the Mae" 001121 axed MOM fl*mly on his
bad. He next contended that the measure was celled/Ur by the same
nag
e.nsergeney that had coceded the Cetbolle chime. le then minister admitted that factn ; they bowed before de mass of discontent that
had arisen. The concession had become —mid it
was not
unjust, and the like emergency had arisen here. There was a of
discontent unequalled, and it there were talent and station;
and where were their opponße=r Where wife she pajama
Worm (heat). If Ireland had so aroused itself that its knock-
insß at the door of the Cabinet had startled the Ministers .were the
emends of England likely to be less powerful ? If in Ireland there
!tete stiffen evil and a feverish suseepoiltlity—even afterthedainstad
bee* conceded, let them recollect that their procrastinatieln had betwthe
cause of it. Had they seined the guidon yews ages therbirmig 126 a.
been no cause to complain of that auCgOility. (hap.) And what
we do Idea, to make of this reference (continued the ha. and imma
ge"'")" regards England ? WbY2 conjure you not to alt. Take
"ming by the past. You saw what happened in Ireland by delaying

twice.; do you wish to wall tilif you see in England the repetition of
events similar to thore that occurred in Ireland P Do you wish to be-
bold comblnadons here ? Bryon do not, I call upon you to be wise in
! time, not to procrastinate; do net pause, do not wait till you have still
more powerfully embodied the feelings,of the country against you P—
lCone, I call upon you ; concede In tithe ; futile/ is With the people ;
concede then, I say, while you may do so with'safety and credit. Ad.
miring, as I do, the principles of freedom contemplated by all, as the
birthright of our constitution—l hesitate not to say that I wish to see
that constitution perpetuated. I will adopt the Venetian's prayer,
esio popettea 1 may the free character of ow conetiigtion be PerPe-
tested ; and I pray that my prayer may be more fortunate than was
the'Vedetfan's.—.(Loud and enthusiastk cheering marked the conclu-
de; of this Speech.) Lord HARVEY rose, but owing to the low tone in Which be spoke, , '
and the confusion that existed, little that he said reached the gaiety—
He wits, however, understood to oppose the measure, and to say that no
bath* weld be shown where boroughs had been forcibly disfranchised.
He regarded the present excitement as the reflection of the 40 years' agi.
tattoo of certain parties in that House.
Mr. PEN DAItVES said he represented a county (Cornwall) that
would be more affected by the operation of the present measure than any
pireed
other; assure yet he could the house that his constituents fully a
with the plan of reform proposed by ministers. And he ho the
government would not concede any material point in the Bill. ( ear.)
' It might, perhaps, be asked, how he knew that the general feeling in
Cornwall was in favour of the measure. He would- answer, that he
knew it by the number of petitions that he had presented, and he bad
many others to present, which expressed entire satisfaction of the
sere, and and they all expressed &hope that !might pass into slaw. Mew.)
There was another county meeting about tote held on the subject, the
requisition for which, in a few . hours, obtained 1,200 signatures,
amongst which number were the names of forty magistrates..—( Loud
cries of hear, hear.) Honourable members, as he before sald, might
be surprised that Cornwall, losing so much by the bill, should petition
in its favour; but the cause was plain, they found that in the manner
in which their present representatives were returned, they were of no be-
nefit to the county. He woulinot then stop to Inquire how it was diet
Cornwall had conferred on it so large a share in the representatioo. It
was, however, no doubt, from its loyalty to the then existing Govern.
meat. (Hear.) Objections had been raised of various kinds; one of
which was, that the bill went to upset the settled institutions of the
country. He never could agree that rotten boroughs formed any part
of the settled institutions of the country. (Hear, hear.) Another ar-
gument was, that through the medium of boroughs all the talent had
been introduced into that house. In answer to this he would say, that
Went, distinguished talent, would always find its way within its walls.
(Hear.) On that account, therefore. he saw no objection to the bill,
and it should have his support. It might. perhaps, be a little ben..
ficianv altered in the committee, as regarded the amount of rent for a
qualifleation of a voter; but if no alteration took place he was satisfied
that if it passed into a law, the interests of all would be better protected
—(hear)—and he was convinced that the general feeling throughout the
country_ was decidedly in favour of the measure.
Lord VALLETORT opposed the bill; but the noise in the house
was so great that it was impossible to catch correctly the purport of the
noble lord's observations. He was understood to say that the whole
measure was in tenor with the political lives of the members composing
the present administration. It was with astonishment that he beard the
Attorney-General state that the paragraphs in the Times were no doubt
libellous ' • but that if they were libel*, they were truths : (hear.) Mi-
nisters had brought about the present excitement, and as an independent
member of parliament, he felt it his duty to tell them so. It was thought
by many wino supported the measure that it went too far; they, there.
fore, intrusted themselves to a ship carrying too much sail. It was an
experiment which, in his opinion, ought not to be tried, when it might
be done by healthier and safer means. He asked hon. gentlemen to
pause, and give the measure the best consideration before they gave a
vote In its favour.

Several members rose together, amongst whom was Mr. Charles
Grant. Loud cries from all parts of the haute for Mr. Grant to pro-
ceed, and in consequence the other members withdrew.
Mr. GRANT then proceeded. He was aware the house must be
almost tired with the long discussions that had taken place on this im.
portent question; but he trusted its kindness would permit him to make
a few observations. (Hear.) Thcre was no occasion for the noble lord
who had just sat down to attribute unworthy motives to those who
brought forward the measure. (Hear.) To those gentlemen about to
be disfranchised, he gave credit for their opposition ; they were only
doing justice to the patrons who returned them. (Hear, hear.) The
measure had been decried as revolutionary—that it would upset the
Throne, subvert the constitution, and rata cep a powerful array of charm.
pions against the legitkosteauthodnes of the land. (Hear.) It was said,
appeal to the country. To the country an appeal had been made, and
from one end to the other was its voice raised in support of the measure.
(Great cheering.) It had monocled from all quarters of the empire.
The country was unanimous. AU admitted that some reform was ne-
cessary. The bon. Baronet himself, who proposed the amendment,
admitted, towards the close of his speech, that should the present mea-
sure not be carried, he himself had a plea of Reform to propose ; there-
fore be might say the quesdoe, as to Reform or no Reform. wai set-
tied, it only remained for the house to deride what Reform Would satisfy
the country. In his opinion it must be an efildent measure of Reform.
Hotly a partial excitement existed in the country it ought not to
be totally disregarded; bow much more necessary was it then to attend
to the general feeling. (Hear.) Let any man look at the state of the
country during the last few years—let him recollect what bad passed,
and he must be convinced that, sooner Or later, the greit subject of re-
form must force itself on the attention of Parliament. (Hear.) It was
a question founded on justice and principle, and supported by the una-
nimous voice of the people. And he never knew the statesman yet that
had been bold enough to soy that public opinion ought not to be re.
garded. It was well understood that the present state of the represents.
Lion was not calculated to cure the evils in the Constitution. The right
hon. baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), when he brought forward the
Catholic bill, said it was the duty of the house to find out the evils in
the Constitution, and apply a remedy ; that course had been the object
of the present ministry ; they had drawn aside the veil' of British jus.'
dee, and examined into the sacred soil of the British Constitution.
The right honourable gentleman went on to say, that Parliament bed
now to deal with an enlightened and instructed people; and it was not
merely public opinion that called for a reformed parliament, but public
justice. (Hear, bear.) The people of Ragland complained of the
system of non-representation ; they complained, further;of direct inter-
ference with the rights of representation; they are taught to believe that
this house was intended to counteract the other branches ot' the legisla-
ture. but they found it was not so. It bad been said of the Duke of
Wellingtonthat before the great question of Catholic emancipation was
carried he had used intimidation. lie( Mr. C. Grant) did not think that
he had ; he was fearful to defer concession which had shady been toolong
withheld. At that late period of the evening he should not trespass long on
the time of the house, although be had some further observations to make ,
on the subject: there was one point however touched upon by the hon. ban
(Sir R. Vyvyan) viz. that the present state of foreign Europe ought to
be a powerful reason against the passing of the present measure. He
(Mr. C. Grant) bad, as well as that honourable baronet, contemplated
the affairs of foreign Europe, but he confessed be drew a very different
lesson from the consideration of the subject which he had bestowed: in
short, he wan of opinion that as disturbances were to be found abroad, to
prevent their occurrence at home, the present measure was atarmay. If
it can be proved that the excitement which had prevailed was to be
ascribed to a delay of cow:anion, then the present was the moment, of
all other*, when delayed concession ought to be granted; by delaying it
longer the seeds of deep agitation would be sown; a consideration,
therefore, of the drain of foreign Europe must convince every one that
the present was the time for bringing forward the great question of a
reform in the representation of the people. (Thrright honourable gen-
tleman sat down amid much cheering.)
Mr. W. B %NEES would eater hie protest against the present mea-
sure of Ministers. He could call it by no other title than that of an
experiment. He candidly acknowledged that it could not be eddied
to any former system as a precedent ; but he would venture to say that it
was distinguished by this difference, that wiwn experiments proved
abortive, they usually leave the parties trying thews as they were; a very
dial:not result, however, was to be anticipated in the present experl-
ment.--(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) If he ( Mr. %ekes) *ere
to enter upon a voyage of experiment, he should like his cane to be
composed of good practical men, who in former voyages had not non
ashore ; be should not choose the proposeri of the ;Resent measures,.
who sat on the benches opposite, whose every project and aniline since
they came into oMce had been a faUure.—(Hear, from the Opposidon.)
The Hon. Gentleman then went into a comparative statement of the
population of the county with which he was connected (1:1101R9, and.
that of Notts ggham, to show, that though the former wowed a
greater pepaladon, the measure of disfranchisement had been sEntised
to a extent than in Nottingham and other comardas.
. BLANEY said it had been argued against the utility pi reform,
that the house was willing to V:Zici%tne hat minis found hu-
pthallikWr pupae sly at resent. Assn if it were
twee that as hydra imistidsti could take pdee, still it would'be a peat
Mc se were
: ti:etiliontwits.ll"4 Tothat sil.the 1 lheir :bw:bl=ittfie" mew
that the bee kir tilaticai* their virtual rep •s—to tell
the people of Binningluid tbit the member" for Old &turn was their
whirled rapstarntadve—What was it but to alit brook to opptiasion. He
had laply tol his comadtwests, *ad bad be much In communication:
with" the mM44I- chaps, the mat virtuous in the sonunuOy.,—and.
saioeigit ilteni he never tied one dimenthint voice raised in opposition
to eltepisa versions proposed bY I. (Hear, heat.) With the'

voice of so many -millions in favour of the measure they should not—
they dare not resist it. (Loud cries of " Question.") The hon.
Member for Sarum and the Hon. Member for °anon might cry out
question ; but as the representative of a large body of constituents, be
felt 'tilde bounden duty to give ;expend= to their opinions, whit k
were the opinions of the whole people of the United Kingdom. (Cries
of question.) He warned the House that there was a universal voice
in the country, not to be put down by clamour, crying out for their
just rights, too long withheld. Let those who opposed the bill now
reflect, that they were not voting for any matter in detail, but against
the great principle of reform (cries of no, no.) There was but one feel.
ing throughout Ragland on the subject--no one who bad not been
amongst them could estimate it. If this measure were refused, it was
impossible that the people of England could any longer place confidence
in that House (hear.)
Lord NOR KEYS said, he became a member of that house, enter-
taining the is that some refmm was necessary, and he intended to
give Iris vote for the bill that ministers should bring in ' • but he could
not support a measure that, if passed into a law, he believed in his
conscience would be the destruction of the constitution. As the hon.
member for Cornwall had given a pledge to the house that he would
hrin; forward an effectual measure of reform, be should, when it was
produced, support it if he proved of it (a laugh). He was returned
to that house by a large body of the middle classes, and he should sup-
port that part of the bill which went to extend the franchise to that
class; btu whrn he saw the constitution endangered by the whole bill,
he could not support it. He thought there might be in future times, as
at preeent, men who would agitate the minds of the people, and excite
them against those in superior stations; and that if this bill were to pass,
there might be a recurrence to the scenes that lately disgraced the country.
He would not accuse' ministers of intentional unfairness in the line they
bad drawn for the disfranchisement of boroughs, but certainly they had
drawn it most ingeniously and adroitly for themselves, and in a manner
well calculated to increase their power. (Hear, hear.) He had a large
constituency, and felt the force of the Right Honourable Harts threat
of a dissolution ; but he could not sacrifice his duty to any selfish eon.
sidantion, and was prepared to stand or fall with the Constitution.—
(Hear, hear.) Let the present Bill be passed, and the day would come
when the country would awake to its consequences. (Hear, heir.)—
They were called upon to legislate for future times, and he would sooner
retire from the House with the honour of baring discharged his duty,
than gain popularity by euzificing his principles, and endangering the
Constitution. cHear.)
Mr, VILLIERS STUART wished shortly to explain to the house
the very difficult situation in which he was placed. He had hoped that
before this night should arrive, he should hare been enabled to transfer
to another the trust he reluctantly held. Circumstances wholly out of
his power to control had prevented the event be wished, and he was now
compelled either to leave his constituents without a representative to vote
in defence of their existing privileges, or to sacrifice his own opinion
and individual feelings. Nothing but a sense of honour could make
him vote against the second reading of the bill ; but he considered him.
self only retaining his seat till his constituents could elect another re-
presentative; and he could not give a vote contrary to their opinions,
and feelings, and privileges, though he bad no hesitation in saying
that in voting against the bill, it was his hope and trust that be should
be left in a minority.

(The hon. gent'; speech appeared to excite the astonishment of the
Mouse.)
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, the bill before the house had
been characterised as revolutionary. He was as great an enemy to re.
volution as any mes..ber of the house, but he saw no tendency to rem.
lution in the present measure. The constitution was gained by a con-
tinual struggle and successive improvement. He felt confident that the
house, in passing the present bill, were not passing a revolutionary mess
sure, but a measure perfectly consistent with the principles of the con-
stitution, which held every public power, however possessed, whether
hereditary ce delegated, as a public trust for the benefit of the corn.
munity : (hear, hear.) His learned friend, the member for Borough.
bridge, said parliament had no right to disfranchise boroughs: what
would his learned friend say to the Septennial Act, which
disfranchised all :the Corporations in England for four years ?
Boroughs were managed in corruption. (No, no. Tice learned gentle.
man repeated his declaration often, which was always accompanied
with cries of no, no, from the opposition). He begged leave to direct
the attention of the house to the qualification under which he made the
assertion. He did say that such was the public impression, and that
the public had no security for the faithful discharge of the right o4elee-
don ; and he would ask if the mode of election was consistent with the
constitution. He knew that a great deal had been said about popu-
lar clamour, but be was the last to lay weight on popular clamour, yet
he could not hut remark the progress of opinion that was so decidedly
marked by the public meetings which had been convened wherever they
could constitutionally he assembled. He would particularly remark the
voice of private society, in which, where politics had never before been no.
deed, Parliamentary Reform was now the prevailing topic, and the cry for
it could never be beat down, but at the expense of the public peace. He
could tell the house that so far fran this measure being coo much, so
strong was the public expression that they bad In a gg t number of
cases called fir vote by ballot. (Hear. firom the ion.) He said
that that had been the expression of the people t bat he could say that
the imam measure would satisfy those people, and was perfectly con-
stitutienaL Such being the case, be would ask the house if they were
warranted, or were they in a situation to refuse the people all that they
asked—he was of opinion that they were not. The learned gentleman
concluded with stating, that the measure was strictly constitutional, was
according to precedent, and was what the country not only required but
must here. (Tumultuous calling of adjourn, from the Opposition, and
go on from others.)
Sir E. B. SUCHEN thought, that on so important a subject it
would hes pity to take into thought a few hours delay, and would be
exceedingly sorry that the House should adjourn after the address of
his learned Friend the Solicitor-General, which was one of the most un-

constitutional that he had ever heard delivered. The learned gentleman
then went into a lengthy disquisition on the arguments of the learned
gentleman who spoke last, and said that while he was upbraiding
others with wandering from the subject, he had not himself advanced
one argument applicable to the bill. (Hear, hear, from the Opposi-
tion.) Ily whom had it been proposed! by the present Government
who had done it to preserve their places. (Cries of hear, hear and
No, no-) They had taken advantage of a popular ferment, instead of
joining the former; administration to turn it out. (Cries of hear,
and Oh, oh,) and would now grant to the people whatever they chose
to ask. The bill was wrong from beginning to end, on the admission of
:he learned gentleman himself, who said that legal evidence was neces-
sary; yet upon moral evidence all these boroughs were to be disfran-
chised. The Bill was to grant what the people had petitioned to:—
they had all petitioned for vote by ballot, universal suffrage, and triers.
nial Parliaments. (Laughter. and cries of No, no.) He was sure that
they had all asked for these things—and destruction of tithes, and de.
suction acetate. The member for Waterford had once said that it
was his wish that the people of Ireland should agitate for a repeal of the
Union, and that tht people of England should agitate for Paillamen-
, tuy Reform; and Ministers seemed to be acting oo that suggestion.—
The honourable member for Preston could confirm this assertion, who
knew the people best. The honourable member for Waterford had open.
ed his (Sir E. Sugden'a) eyes on this measure, a little, when he said that
be was contented to accept this measure for a reformed Parliament,
for with it he knew that all which he wanted would soon follow. The
Hon. Members for Preston and Waterford were like to accept any thing
that would strengthen the hands of the democracy, as they made sure
that vote by ballot would follow next Session. The Learned Gentleman
alluded to the tri-coloured flag which had been used in a proocssion, and
which the Noble Lord opposite had spoken of in eulogy in that House.
He (flit E. Sugden) had no objection to the lag as a flag of Frame. but
as a tag that had waved over the wreck of the French Constitution, and
had been flourished over the destiny of the nation's monarch, he (Sir E.
Sugdee) world always raise his voice against the measure that that
Noble Lord proposed. He contended that instead of the number of
representatives being abridged of sixty-two, they ought rather to be in.
amend ttow, when the population was increasing at the rate
of a "tarter of a million a year. The bill was a billy( palm and pe-
nobles calculated to widen the spread of devastation and confiscilion, and
delivel a constitution that would work well for itself. He appealed
to the boo. member for Preston if be was swan{ that. the bill ms 4. no
provision for the protection of his constituent'? fraiichiseidurieg.life,
but that if he supported the bill he would, by his vote, disfranchise the
very persons echo had sent him to that house. Beyond,* simple open.
log speech, no gentleman bad ever vouched to give any explanation of
I it. He, as a lawyr could understand an act of Parliament; but he
confessed tha: he could not comptehend the points of the bill, although
he hid read it over. The measure was represented in a different
wq to different classes; the middle elan was told that it would
extend their rights; the aristocracy, that it would secure their power.
The object of the bill was to cut up the country into petty dis-
tricts, these were always open to iniluenoe.:Then Parliaorellt wags 14:0cede
to the Privy Council the power of arranging title, districts, and coo.
sequently would leave the disposidoo of thieketions hi' their hank.—
The rights of the corporaters,.aad oft ISS lootnad,1•1 I? undulydestroyed. He asked wbo was the lend*4 who had introduced the clause
that before the constituent sitsold be tend he tliold4 hve Pad *V
all his rents and taxes ? This;tli mil to esii rpm right
of lionise is divined quallses Via' • ted inerectly by the Lord
The boa. nersithat it) All* tntlrelso. dr. alld se-
=ii misters with having eimplemised with Mr. O'Coomils, but was'
stopped by cries of " Qawaisa." He asked, had the people, in asking
for Ont., asked for &reduction of eixity-two memberen deprecated
the of members to Ireland.
at the expellee or laod,'ate time
Wise flutylass that at the new election the Irish were to.be
piseatMari of the union He should give his cordial support to
tie

The debate was thisadjestrned.
The orders of the day were disposed of, and the house adjourned at •
quarter to four o'clock.

THEIR MAJESTIES, 40.
WINDSOR. MARCH 21.
At eleven o'clock this morning the 11; tsiti , accompani(d
by Lord HILL and Mr. GREENWOOD, drove thirinvh
town in her MAJESTY'S pony phaeton, and pi-oceitial thy
Long Walk to Norfolk Farm, and from thence through tl.
Park to Flemish Farm, and returned to the Castle at 1)4.1 -
last one o'clock. At three o'clock the Kiwo and Qt-!r
left the Castle by the new entrance, which leads in a straight
line to the Long Walk, and proceeded to Virginia Water.
Their MAJESTIES were attended by the whole of their 46-
tinguish,:d visitors who are now staying at the Castle Mr
G FEN v. non rode with the KING in the pony phaeton, and
the vest of Cie royal party were on horseback. '1 he splendid
retinue returned to the Castle a little after five o'clock. In
the evening their MAJESTIES will entertain a mimermis
dinner party : among.those who have the honour cf invitmien
ale the officers of both regiments which are stationei here,
and most of the nobility and gentry in the surrounding nuig h -
bot: rhood . The band of the Coldstream Guards have olden,:
to be in attendance.