Star.
London, England, 1822-05-14 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

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Mr. FLEMING presented a Petition from the Landowne.,
of Ramsey Marsh, in Hampshire, complaining of Agricultural
Distress, and praying a reduction of taxation.—The Petition was
laid on the table.
Mr. FLEMING presented a Petition from the Congregation
of the Gospel Church of Seaford, in Sussex, against the Bill for
the relief of Roman Catholic Peers.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. BERNAL presented a retition from a Parish in Sussex,
against the Bill for the relief of Roman Catholic Peers.—Laid
on the table.
Sir W. ROW LEY presented a Petition from the Landowners
of Suffolk, against allowing the Warehoused Corn to be taken
out of bond at 655. per quarter.—Laid on the table.
Mr. BERNAL presented a Petition from the Hop-planters
of Sussex, praying a reduction of the Import Duties on that
article.—Laid on the table.
Mr. BASTARD presented Petitions from the Parishes of
Kingsbridge and Dudbrook, in Devonshire, against the Poor
Settlement Bill.
Similar Petitions were presented. from the Ironmasters of
Monmouthshire, by Lord GRANVILLE Sollzasirr ; from the Vestry
of Salforn, by Lord STANLEY ; from the Governors of the Poor
at Norwich, by Mr. Worisnouse ; and from a Hundred in Sus-
sex, by Mr. Ileaastr..—All ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. CU RTEIS presented a Petition from the Landowners
of Sussex, stating, that they regarded with surprise and dismay
a plan for allowing Corn to be imported at so small a duty as ss.
per quarter.—Laid on the table. .
Mr. LEIGH KECK presented a Petition from the Clergy'
of the Archdeaconry of Leicester, against the Catholic Bill.—
lAid on the table.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY presented a Petition from the
Manufacturers of Huddersfield, in Yorkshire, praying for a re-
peal of the Import Duties on Iron.
The Hon. Member also presented a Petition from Whitby, in
the same county, praying for a revision of the Criminal Law.—
Laid on the table.
Sir N. COLTHURST gave notice, that on the 6th of June
be would move to take into consideration the 56th of Geo. 111.
relative to the importation of foreign Butter.
presented two Petitions from Brechin, in Scot-
Royal Burghs Bill.—Ordered tobe printed.
, presented a Petition from the holders of foreign
Kingston.upon-Hall, complaining of the onerous duties
- imposed on imported corn. The Petitioners stated
in warehouse was so much deteriorated that they
rr seventeen shillings per quarter for taking it out of
mod.—Ordered to be printed.
'OUCH presented a Petition from a Hundred in Sur-
remission of taxation, and an imposition of high
imported corn.
Honourable Member presented another Petition from
- division of Suffolk on the same subject.—Ordered to

,STNOR presented a Petition from the Fanners and
Reigate against the Leather Tax.--Laid on the table.
'. BEECHER presented a Petition from the Rev.
Rector of Caed..Maynard, in Cork, on behalf
parishionen, against the mac system.— Laid on
WHITBREAD mo►ed for Returns of soy Ba.
hands of the Treasurer for the county of Middle.

£BREAD presented a Petition from the &mei.
Poor and Churchwardens NI St. Andrew's, Holborn,
Poor Settlement 11111.—Inid as the table.

notion of lIr• WALLACIII the Order et the

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Bid, .
Lord
presented

cheap administrationdjustke.
Mr. B. WILBRAHAM objected to the all emits general
principle u a public measure. He also objected to It on the part
of the remainder of the county of Lancaster..
Mr. BROUGHAM was in favour of the Bill; he would ever
be an advocate for any measure that tended to facilitate or
cheapen the administration of justice to the People. He was
astonished at the opposition of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. WILBILAINAid and Mr. BROOOMAIII mutually explained.
General GASCOYNE supported the Bill.
After a few words from Mr. Se/Amor, Mr. P. Moose, and
Mr. C. WILSON, the gallery was cleared for a division. The
numben were—For the Amendment, 96—Against it, 70—Ma-
jority against the Bill, 46.
Mr. HOBIIOUSE availed himself of this opportunity to
nsendon the defective character of the Returns that had been
made respecting the Insolvent Debtors' Court, those regarding
the proceedings in the country had not been made.
Mr. Ratestiot and Mr. S. Wonxxxr seve Yorkresented Pe-
ll.—
titions from Yorkshire against the county ofPolls'
Ordered lo be printed.
Mr. MONCK presented a Petition from Reading against the
Poor Removal Bill.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH said, he bad to present a Petition
of a singular nature. It was from the Churchwardens of the
past and present year, other Officers, and about sixty Inhabi-
tants of the Parish of St. Matthew, Bethealtreen, disavowing
a Petition which, they bad learned from a Newspaper, had been
promoted, praying a remission of Mr. Hunt's sentence. The
Petitioners said, they had not heard of any Meeting being con-
vened to adopt the Petition presented on a former day ; that
many of the signatures must have been covertly obtained ; that
the sentiments it contained had been properly condemned, and
that the Petitioners were anxious to have an opportunity of die-
claiming such sentiments.
The SPEAKER observed, that this Petition was, indeed, of
rather a singular nature; it was, in fact, a protest. He apps
beaded, however, that it could not be received, for several tea.
aims. First, this document made allusion, in a disorderly man-
ner, to accounts of proceedings in that House on the authority
of a Newspaper ; secondly, the paper now offered was a Pro-
test, and not a Petition ; and thirdly, the Petition referred to had
not been received by that House, it was withdrawn. Perhaps
the Hon. Member would see the propriety of withdrawing the
paper which be had offered to the House.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH acquiesced in the suggestion, and
begged leave to withdraw the Petition--(Hear).—Petition, or
Protest, withdrawn accordingly.
Mr. LEN NA RD gave no:ice that he should, on Wednesday
neit, move for a Committee to inquire into the Civil List (Third
Class). If that motion were granted, he meant to follow it up
with moving an Address to the King, for a reduction of that
class of the Civil List.
Mr. BIRCH presented a Petition from St. Mary's, Notting-
ham, against-the Poor Removal Bill.
Mr. SCARLETT, to show the necessity of something being
done, mentioned that six pregnant womtn had been removed
from the parish in which they were seduced, to a place where
they had not fur some time resided.—The Petition was ordered
to be printed.
• Mr. M. A. TAYLOR postponed, till the 6th of June, his mo-
tion touching the Appellant Jurisdiction of the House of Lords.
Colonel DA VIES postponed till the next Session, his motion
connected with the Dismissal of Officers without Courts Martial.
Lord A. HAMILTON, in presenting a Petition from the
1 Merchant Burgesses of Edinburgh against the Royal Burghs
Bill, desired to know from the Lord Advocate when that
Learned Lord intended to proceed with his Bills, or whether he
intended to abandon them?
The LORD ADVOCATE said, it was his intention to pro-
ceed with the Bills, and that other motions of great national
importance occasioned the delay that had occurred.—Petition
read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. P. MOORE presented a Petition from Coventry against
the Poor Removal Bill.
Mr. DEN MAN moved that this Petition be printed. He
considered it a measure of great importance, and one respecting
which it was desirable that they should obtain every possible
iuformation.—Motion agreed to.
Mr. CANNING, the House having gone into a Committee
on the Catholic !'errs' Bill, moved some verbal Amendments.
He merely desired that the Amendments should be agreed to pro
farina, so that the Bill, in Its amended form, should be printed.—
Amendments %reed to; Report brought up by Mr. 111.113XISSON,
and it was ordered to be taken into further consideration on
Wednesday next.

ORDERS OF THE DAY.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY wished that
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Scarlett)
would postpone his Bill, so that the Order of the
Day for presenting the Report of the Agricultural
Distress Committee might be received. It was de-
sirable that a Bill should be brought in as early as
possible, because in that form the proposed measures
would be more intelligible to the country.
Mr. SCARLETT replied, that if there was not
likely to be much debate on the Report, be could
have no objection to allow it to have precedence of
the Poor Removal Bill.
The :Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he did
not apprehend that there could be much debate on
the Agricultural Resolutions, as they had already
undergone four days discussion. If there were any
opposition to be made to the principles of the mea-
sure, or to its details, it might be mere convenient
to reserve such opposition till the Bill had been in-
troduced. A gallant Officer (Colonel Davies) bad
given notice that he should move Resolutions on the
Report, to call on the House to direct a further di-
minution of taxes. He must protest against such a
mode of proceeding. He thought it would not be
fair to bring forward such Resolutions just as they
were about to close measures of great importance to
the finances of the country.
Colonel DAVIES said he felt himself bound to
bring forward his Resolutions. The country had
asked relief; and his Resolutions went to recommend
that relief for which there had been so general a call.
Mr. SCARLETT observed, judging from what
had fallen from the Hon. Member who last spoke,
that the discussion of the Agricultural question would
occupy some time ; and that as it appeared to be the
desire of the House to proceed with that subject, be
should postpone his Bill—(Hear, hear).—He then
proposed that the second reading of the Poor Re-1
moval Bill be postponed till the Slst May.
Mr. GIPPS complained that so important a Bill
should be postponed to so distant a day, and ex-
pressed his regret that the Government bad not more
particularly directed its attention to the subject of
such Bill.—Motion agreed to.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS IMPORT.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY then moved
that the Agricultural Distress Report be brought up.
Mr. BROGDEN having presented it, and on the
motion that it be read,
General GASCOYNE said that he would take that
opportunity to deny that the distress of agriculture
resulted from the defective state of the Corn Laws.
Such an idea was unfounded in truth, and he should
avail himself of the first stage of the Bill that might
be opposed to express his sentiments on the subject.
Colonel DAVIES then rose. He should move those
Resolutions of which he had fornierly given notice.
He was not desirous of trespassing on the attention

. .4170F9 Or..Nfir."7".
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PKIII

bring 4.
given notice. The universal cry had been, and was,
for immediate relief. As that was the case, he demised
it but justice to the House to propose something that
was calculateds:ioutiive the country immediate relief
It had been as that the distress did not result
from the taxes, but was caused by a redundant sup-
ply; and the Noble Lord had improved on such
statement by declaring that a reduction of taxation
would not afford relief. The Ministers accordingly
adopted such statement as their principle; they said
reduction of taxes would be of no use. This was as,
much as to say; that corn must continue at 70s. the
quarter at least ; for, if the present taxes remained,
it was impossible that The remunerative price to the
farmer could be lower than 70s. and as he was of opi-
nion that nothing would be so injurious to the best
interests of this country as to attempt to keep up
high prices of corn, he should propose, as the only
sound course of proceeding, a reduction of taxes,.
That was the mode to relieve the distresses of agri.
culture ; and he felt more particularly the policy of
this course of proceeding, because he was persuaded
that the price of corn could not rise. It appeared
from the Resolution which he had to present, that
the taxes on Candles, Hides, Soap, and Salt, amounted
in the gross to 8,857,000/. of which two-thirds, or,
about 2,500,0001. were borne by the agriculturists,
besides a heavy proportion of the Poor Rates. On
the 25th of March, 1820, the Poor Rates amounted
to 7,500,0001.-6,000,0001. of which fell upon thel,
landed interest. The Hon. and. Gallant Member then
entered into a comparative statement of taxation in
Ireland, and said he should propose the repeal of all
those that came under the Excise Department in that
country ; he next argued at some length to shew that
a diminution of taxation, produced a corresponding
increase of revenue, while, on the contrary, an in-
crease of taxation tended to impair the revenue.—
After quoting some calculations in support of this
preposition, the Hon. and Gallant Member said, that
the object of his Resolutions was to repeal the whole
of the Excise Duty on Salt, Soap, and Candles, and
half the Excise Duty on Leather, producing in the
whole a net amount of 5,204,0001. He next com-
mented on the injurious effect of the Excise Laws in
their present operation, and concluded by moving his
Resolutions, not, he said, with the view of doing
away any of the Resolutions proposed by the Noble
Marquis, but to be added to them, should the House
think at to sanction his proposition.
The SPEAKER observed, that the question now
before the House was for bringing up the Report ;
and if the Resolutions of the Hon. Member were
adopted, the Report could not now be received. He
also wished to state, that the Resolutions could not be
added in a supplemental form, as they had not come
before the Committee.

Colonel DAVIES acquiesced in the decision of
the Chair, and withdrew the Resolutions, offering at
the same time a few words in reply to an observation
from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who com-
plained of the informality of the proceeding.
Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT felt anxious to deliverhis
opinion upon the subject of the Resolutions which
had been withdrawn ; he should certainly have op-
posed them, if for no other reason than that they had
not come before the House in a regular form. He
was an advocate for all practicable reduction; but it
was to be observed that the Resolutions of the Hon.
and gallant Member did not bear at all upon the
great and important question before the House. His
own opinion was that the Resolutions of the Com-
mittee were calculated to afford very material relief
to the Agriculturists, and he could not forbear from
thanking the Noble Marquis for having brought
them forward—(Hear, hear).
Mr. WESTERN regretted that the discussion upon
a question so vitally interesting to the country should
be further postponed; for he thought the sooner
something was decided upon the better. He differed
entirely with his Hon. Friend the Member for Hert-
fordshire (Sir John Sebright), for he thought that the
Resolutions of the Committee, so far from tending to
relieve agriculture, went rather to give it another di-
rect blow—(Hear, hear).—The Hon. Member here
recapitulated some of his former arguments respect..
ing the effect which the alteration of the currency
had in producing the present distress. He contended
that our prices did not keep.upon the same scale
with gold, and till that was done the House would
only be legislating in the dark. He had lately re-
ceived a communication from Hamburgh, from
which it appeared that prices there were low in the
extreme. Wheat sold at from 265. to 31s. per quar-
ter; Rye from 13s. to I4s. ditto; Barley from Ss. to
95.; Oats from ss. 9d. to Bs. He also understood
that the freight from Hamburgh was not higher than
from any port of the county which he had the ho-
nour to represent. As a proof of the distress which
prevailed at Hamburgh, he needed only to state that
in the course of the present year the Danish Govern-
ment consented to receive from the people there
70,000 quarters of corn in payment of taxes, no
inlney being to be had. When we saw it proposed
to reduce the import price from 80s. to 70s.he could
not help thinking such a measure another blow at
agriculture. The various communications he had
received shewed most clearly that the Resolutions in-
creased the alarm which already existed. The ac-
counts that had reached him from abroad, and which
were authenticated by our Consuls, stated that the
. prices were calculated in British currency, which was
not equal to gold—CHere Mr. RICARDO intimated
his dissent.]—He bowed to the authority of the Hon.
Member; but still he could not help thinking him
wrong in disputing a proposition the correctness of
which was not to be questioned. He was convinced
that the cultivators of the soil would rather remain
for a time even under the operation of the existing
law, than agree to the Resolutions.
Mr. J. SMITH did- not see how the House could
adopt any remedy wider the circumstances in whic
the distress arose. He had heard of remediei whi
appeared to him ruin and destruction--(Hsu', hitar)i
Remedies which threatened all the best interests •
the country. He had heard that a motion had been
made during his temporary absence from the Noise,
to reduce taxes to the amount of 20100010004—(Crits

~~;.

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might have been misinformed with
substance of the *notion' but he cer.
stood that the speech of an Hon. Member
recommendation to reduce taxes to the
1,000,0001. He thought it would not be
that if that Hon. Member wanted to
altogetherOsecould not.have adopted
method than such a sweeping re-
duction. He had beard that a Gendentan, whom he
did not then see in his place, recommended the re.
ducing of the income of the fundholdel s —Weer,
hear).—}le believed he heard of * reduction of 20
millions. He {Mr. Smith) would beg the House td
attend to the effects which would naturally follow
such a reduction of 20 millions of taxes. He would
suppose that Resolution to be canted. That would
necessarily excite great alarm among the fundholdere
in this country. There was also another class, with
whose feelings he had opportunities of being ac.:
quainted. He meant the foreigners who had vested
large sums in the English funds, and who, on the
passing of such a Resolution as that, would imme-
diately take the alarm and sell out, and take their
property home. Among the English fundholders too
there would be a strong disposition to sell their stock,
and vest their money in foreign security. The Stocks
in this country would necessa:ily fall, as was the case
in France in 1792 and 1793, and the exchanges
would be 90 per cent. against us. In one month
after the House had resolved not to pay the public
creditor more than Iss. in the pound, the Bank cf
England would necessarily cease to pay their notes.
The Bank of England was the largest creditor the
country had, and if Parliament violated the public
faith, the Bank, of course, would be among the suf-
, ferers. Had the Bank of England a better right to
be paid than any other creditor ? Certainly not. If
they then were to receive but 10s. in the pound, they
could not be expected to pay their notes, nor exist
any longer as a Bank. Such, he was confident,
would be the consequences of violating the public
faith. No bank in town, nor in England nor Scot-
land could exist. If he was stating anythin,g that did
not seem a fair and true consequence, and if he was
taking an erroneous view of the subject, he would be
glad to be refuted and to discover his error. Ano-
ther of the consequences of the violation of public
faith by the reduction of such an enorninus sum of
taxes, would be a scarcity of money, and the imme-
diate consequence of a scarcity of money would be
low prices for every species of agricultural produce--
so low indeed that they would hardly support the
cultivators of the soil, who would become patiptis.—
He was sorry to have learned that two Hon. and
Learned Friends of his, the Members for Vinchelsea
and Knaresborough (Mr. Biougham and Sir.% Mack-
intosh) had supported that Resolution. 1k regretted
those votes were given in support of such a Resolu-
tion—not that he thought his Hon. and Learned
Friends would vote wrong, but he was sure they had
not sufficiently considered the consequences. He also
regretted it, because those votes would be remem-
bered when the qualifications and explanations given
would be forgotten. He was aware it would be said
of himself as it was said of other Gentlemen, that
they were of the monied interest, and were not cen-
cerned about agriculture. In the history of those
Hon. Members against whom that charge was made,
he was not sensible that the charge applied to them.
He wished taxation to be reduced to the utmost far-
thing possible, consistently with the true interest of
the country. He would, for instance, reduce the
Salt Tax, because it was most injurious in its effects.
His objection to the motion of the Hon. Member for
York (Mr. Wyvill) was, that it was not relief but ab-
solute ruin—(Hear, hear).—But there were other
reasons on which he would resist that motion. He
would ask the House, was there no national honour?
Was there no moral strength in the nation—in a na-
tion which bad so far advanced the cause of learning,
of humanity, and of civil liberty, the friend to tole-
ration, and after whose example bigotry was con-
quered and toleration established all over the world ?
He contemplated that violation of public faith with
horror and dismay. The sentiments expressed at the
Public Meetings in different parts of the Island im-
plied that a reduction of taxation would be beneficial
to the country. He would maintain the contrary;
and would contend that the worst effects would fol-
low from such a reduction as was proposed. Eco-
nomy in the public expenditure could give some re-
lief, and particularly in the colonial and naval de-
partments. If the Gentlemen opposite took another
course, and kept an eye upon economy in their cs-
penses—(Hear!)—they need not complain of want
of influence, for they could then command such ht
fluence as would be irresistible.
Mr. DENNIS BROWN said, that he agreed with
the Hon. Member for Essex, in thinking that the
solutions before the House were not likely to be be-
neficial to the country.
Sir W. W. WYNN declared his concurrence with
the Hon. Member for Midhurst (Mr. J. Smith) that
whenever we should fail to keep strict faith with the
public creditor it would be a national bankruptcy.
It was impossible that this nation could go on with-
out an Army and Navy ; and therefore any large re-
duction of expenditure must go to affect the Stock-
holder. But with regard to the Resolutions before
the House, the particular advantage of them, he
thought, was that they combined a mixture of pro-
hibition and protection duty, without which they
would be liable to see the country inundated with
all kinds of rain.
Lord ALIHORP rose for the purpose of explain-
ing the conduct of his two Hon. Friends who had
received the animadversion of the Hon. Member fer
Midhurst. He considered that a man who voted in that
House voted for the question put from the Chair, and
not for the speech by which that question was intro-
duced ; but when he distinctly disavowed the argu-
ments employed by the Mover, it was indeed hard
that he should in his absence be treated as having
subscribed to them. This was the case with Iris Hon.
Friend. He had himself voted against the motion of
the Hon. Member for York (Mr. Wyvill) because he
looked upon it as interrupting the progress of an ad-
journed debate; but if the motion were to come on
snits proper place he would vote for it.
Mr. J. SMITH explained.—He had said that lie
knew very well that his Hon. Friends' sentiments
were the same as his own ; and therefore be regretted
that their votes might be remembered when their
explanations were forgotten.
Mr. CHALONER defended the conduct of his
Hon. Friend the Member for York (Mr. Wyvill) in

I" __
Mr. HUMS
land, against the
kjt , , Dlr. SYKES
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,
. that their corn I
could not pay se
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Mr. W. W. 1
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the table.
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Mr. BLACKBURS moved die third saw Ca im °llls- - with t sub)eat so* u , con - • ; ~, inly understood
lundred Ellli.
The ATTORNEY-CaItNER AL saki Mr wadi agsbnetbe but m there was not, introymoniefitofoftlle six. pliims , ' contained
of
alloremcor
a, and moved that it be read on tbat .dardzamesubs. purported to be for , agricu tures an= amount ,
Lord ALTHORP observed, that several Petidcesehad been thing suggested that proraised isamediate relief, he dilcult to chew I
resented in favour of the Bin, bp whisb tbo Hoses dhow pay
had felt himself bound, in the discharge of. his duty, ruin agriculture a
mention. The p.eolde,,beeo...nteoded, had a right to demand a
to bring forward those Resolutions of which be had a more effectual
. - _________l -1.. A koon orul sm. election. He hat

the motion he had brought fortiori, which had
with the censure of the Hon. Member for Mid)
Altlipligh that Hon. Member had said that he
wish for a remissien of taxation to the extent
millions, he did not make a motion to that effect
Mr. PHILLIPS thought, that if the Hon. MI
for MiJhurst had been in the House At the tir
!notion of the Hon. Member for York was
be would have voted for it himself. The
Nember then proceeded to notice the reference
bcen made by the lion. Member for Essex
Western) to the price of foreign corn. Great (
once of opinion existed on this subject, as to the
Tea quoting of the averages; but he had got
rage, of long and short periods, by which it apj
that the price of corn at Dantzic, upon an iv
of many years. was 535. that of five years,
1796 to 1800, 535. Bd. and from 1816 to 1820
a little above 675. Thus they had the averages
at ditlei cot periods and different terms of years,
this he thought ought to be sufficient to dissipate
the alarm on the subject of high prices and tl
sonings built upon it. He did not believe the
I-assessed the power of relieving the present distress
• ,
but, if tney were to attempt it, it would be
evil in legislation. Hon. Gentlemen must not
themselves with an idea that high prices were
sistent with the interests of the agriculturist:
the counti y. If they raised the price of the an
tut al pi ounce of this country high whilst
°Owls was low, they must seriously injure the
interc,ts. The manufacturing interest was nod
ye: ing tram the state in which the agricultur:
—Year alter year they had been condemned
their capital wasted, and even now their profit
extremely low ; and it was only the low wf
CI kmen that enabled them to go on, and tin
enly be whilst th' rate of provisions was props
ably low. Gentlemen must not judge of the
commerce from the exports, as these were
made upon speculation, and not in compliant
cr,!cr, ; and even if these exports. met with a
ket, the proceeds must be eligibly di
of iv:ore the merchant could count upon hif
lie wished to get rid of the whole-system of th
as he looked upon them as only misleading di
viers. Without the averages he thought a duty
would he a very fair rate. lie believed th;
weight of indirect and direct taxation upon
futures was as peat, and greater than upon
ture. He opposed all the Resolutions whi
been proposed, tint those of the Wn. Memi
l'ortarlington. He hoped, year after year, ht.
press them upon the House; for he was far
longer they went on under the existing syst(
greater would be the evil. The more that Hot
tien:an was known, the more he would be rest
as one of the most original and wise writers
subject of political economy.
Mr. SYKES said he had not yet been able!
up his mind to any of the Resolutions, nor .
meats upon them, which had been proposed,
there re had abstained from voting upon
them. In his opinion, it was not from supera-
iiice of produce that the distress had been caused,
but by the alteration of the currency. He considered
that a reduction of taxation was the best ground
upon which national credit could rest, and he agreed
wiLit the Hon. Member for Callington (Mr. Attwood)
that when corn was at a high price all other interests
must suffer. He did not agree with those who stated
agriculture to be exclusively in a bad state,. He
thought the manufacturing interest was also suffering.
Mr. RICARI)O, in explanation of allusions which
had been made to his statement of the prices of fo-.
reign corn, begged Hon. Gentlemen would bear in:
niirsd that them were two authorities on that subject.
Cut were quoted from generally, who differed much
in their items. The calculations of Mr. Solly were

_
trade in conformance with the variations in our pa,
per carrency, and were, therefore, always higher than
those of Mr. Gray, who made his calculation upon a
fixed exchange. He had built his argument on the
latter, and it would be found that whilst he quoted
from one paper, Hon. Gentlemen quoted from ano-
ther, and thus the misunderstanding arose. He
hoped, therefore, he should be acquitted of any in-
tention to mislead.
Mr. ATTWOOD said, the Noble Lord had con-
tended that the present price ought not to be looked
to on the present occasion, but that they ought to
take the average of the last 20 or SO years. He pro-
ceeded to shew that the peculiar circumstances of the
war had so effected the price of grain during that
perio,!, that it ought to be excluded from their calcu-
litioas, as nothing could be more erroneous than to
tike such a ground for legislation. The Honourable
Meu.ber for Portarlington had fallen into an error,
the correction of which by the Hon. Member for
Essex had been received with very little complacency,
and a lecture on the principles of political economy
had hallowed ; but in the paper produced by the Hon.
Member for Portarlington, 21-6 ought to be read 14,
and 26 ought to be read 16, and this error ran all
through the paper. Another error into which he had
fallen was this—France had been completely over-
looked, as if she were not a great corn-growing
country. He then took a comprehensive view of the
s tuation in which France stood as a corn-glowing
country, and shewed that its price there had not va-
ried as in England, nor had it greatly varied else-
v-bere but in consequence of the influence of the
English system on other markets. Its price had not
changed, as had that of gold, during the period al-
luded to. lie traced the existing distress to the Bank
Restriction Act. But what was the object of the pre-
sent Bill ? Why, it neglected everything that ought
to be attended to, in order, as had been, in fact, ad-
mitted by a Bight Hon. Gentleman, to scramble a
little more into the Exchequer than would otherwise
be obtained. If the Right Hon. Gentleman looked
to the annals of his office, he would find that tumult
and disorders had grown out of the prevailing dis-
tress. If Parliament persevered in their present disas-
trous course, adhering to the restored standard of
♦alue, it was difficult to calculate what would be the
consequences. He contended the law for resuming
cash payments was at present in the midst of its ope-
ration. Every day, every hour produced new proofs
of the ruinous consequences resulting from that ini-
quitn;.s measure—(Hear, hear}--which was rapidly
extending from one end of the country to the other.
He pressed on the attention of the house the melan-
choly situation of one parish which had been brought
under their consideration last week, where, in conse-
quence of die arrangement made with respect to

had done good already. The time at which that
motion had been brought forward was such, that the
proposition was calculated to give a great blow to
public credit, and the Hon. Member for Midhurst
had his best thanks for the speech he had made to
correct the evil.
Mr. HUME, for one, disclaimed having voted for
the motion which had been alluded to, on the prin-
ciples supposed by the Noble Marquis. He was con-
fident that the Hon. Member for Midhurst had spoken
on a misconception of what had taken place. He had
believed that those who voted for the motion alluded
to, had voted for that which would break faith with
the public creditor, and produce in this country
'scenes like those which marked the French Revolu-
tion. But he was convinced that those who voted
for the lemission of taxation, were those who took
the best beans of averting such a catastrophe. He
maintained, in opposition to the Ncble Marquis, that
salaries and pensions were now much higher than in
1792, and of this he adduced several instances. The
Resolutions of his Hon. Friend, the Member for Pot.-
tarlington, were those which he should wish to see
carried, and to those he thought the House must
hereafter come; but those of the Noble Marquis, he
was of opinion, would improve on the present law,
and so far they had his support.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY explained.
Mr. PEEL spoke as follows ;-6 I did not expect
that a debate like the present would arise on the
question that the Report of the Committee should be
brought up ; but as the Hon. Member for Callington
(Mr. Attwood) has so particularly referred to me in
the course of his speech, though I could wish to re-
serve what I have to say on the restoration of the
currency till the Hon. Member for Essex brings for-
ward the motion of which he has given notice, I can-
not pass over what so particularly refers to me per-
sonally. And here I cannot but express my surprise
at the applause which some points of the Hon. Gen-
tleman's speech called forth from that side of the
House, and especially that where the Hon. Gentle-
man went the length of calling the Bill for returning
to cash payments an iniquitous measure. When
remember the course of the debates on that measure;
when I remember that a Gentleman on that side of
the House (Mr. Horner) in 1810 brought forward,
though a. political opponent I must say it, to his im-
mortal honour, Resolutions in favour of a return
to cash payments; when 1 remember that it, 1811
the concluding Resolution proposed by Mr. Horner
and adopted by the Bullion Committee, called on
the Bank to resume cash payments at the end of
two years from that time—(Hear, hear, hear)—
and when I remember how that proposition was sup-
ported by the Hon. Gentlemen opposite, I cannot suf-
ficiently express my surprise at the applause given to
that part of the Hon. Member's speech which de-
scribed the Act of 1819 as an iniquitous measure—
(Hear, hear).—What was the course taken by those
who sat on the opposite benches in 1816, when that
subject was debated in this House ? An Act like
that which has since then passed, was not spoken of
as that which would deserve such a character. But
if anything could surprise me more than the conduct
of those Gentlemen collectively, it would be the ap-
plause given to the language I have alluded to by the
Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice). Let me
tell that Hon. Gentleman, that in 1819 he moved
Resolutions as an Amendment on those which I had
submitted to the House. Mine went to oblige the
Bank to resume cash payments in the year 1823

, poor ,
" 1)o you consider tea as a necessary of life?—Yes.
" Do you consider spirit, as a necessary of life ?—I consider
spirits as a luxury."
—But in point of fact, the witness considered that
with respect to all these articles the general consump-
tion had greatly diminished, and the name of this wit-
ness w as Thomas Attwood, Esq.—(Loud cheers and
laughter). The name of this withers was Thomas
Attwood, Esq.—(A laugh). The object of my speech
was, as I have said, to shew that no such reduction in
consumption had taken place, and if the Revenue
continued to increase under circumstances like those
which I have described, I had a right to infer that the
manufacturing classes were better off than formerly,
and 1 wished to shew that their situation had not been'
deteriorated. The Hon. Gentleman has asked Me if
1 did not find in my office records of tumult and in-
subordination growing out of the prevailing distress?.
I do not know to what period he alludes. It he means`
to ask whether I do not now find that tumults and'
insubordination prevail ? my answer is, that I do not.
I suppose the Hon. Gentleman alludes to the dis-
turbances in Monmouthshire and Staffordshire—
(" No," from Mr. ATTWOOD). But only in those places
have disorders occurred.
Mr. Arrwonn had not alluded to Staffordshire.
Mr. Prat.—" Not to Staffordshire!—But the disorders oc-
curred there."
Mr. Arrwoon said he had referred to the tumults which oc-,
curred in Lancashire from want of work.
Mr. PEEL continued.—" Such disorders as lately
happened cannot now occur from scarcity of labour,
for I happen to have in my Office an offer from the
masters in Staffordshire, proposing to give three shil-
lings per day, two pints of beer, and fuel for their
families, to those who chbose to accept of employ-
ment—CHere it was remarked, that the masters only
proposed to employ the men four days in each week j.
I shall leave the rest to my Hon. Friend near me,
who, at my request, left his Parliamentary duty to
go down to the spot, in order to ascertain how mat,
ters really stood. But the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Att-
wood) does not speak of what lately occurred, but
refers to wirat took place at a former period, when
his beautifyil paper standard was in existence. Here,
then, is a iontradiction in terms. In 1816 and 1817
disorders and tumults occurred; but it. was not till
1819 that I brought in the Bill for restoring a me-
tallic currency. In those years (1816 and 1817), I
certainly find that disorders prevailed; and I also
find them described by a Committee of this House,
not as originating in disloyalty, but as growing up
among the lower orders of manufacturers, who std.-
fered 6 from the low rate of wages, and the in-
creased price of the necessaries of life'—(Hear).—
The Hon. Gentleman will tell me, 6 01 but then a
great revulsion had taken place, the country Banks
had diminished their issues, and thus produced gene-
ral distress.' To be sure they had, and this was the
evil to be apprehended from a paper circulation.
While abundant issues of paper took place we could
go on very well, but the evil is felt when this is called
, m, and we have to pay for the paper which has been
circulated. It was those issues which led to the dis-
tress which is now the subject of complaint. Men
go on very pleasantly while getting drunk, and while
. breathing oxygen, but then they must take the un-
pleasant consequences attendant on returning to a
state of sobriety, and on again accustoming them-
selves to breathe the atmospheric air. Mr. Hume
has well described the effects of a paper currency—
(A laugh). I doubt not the Hon. Gentleman opposite-
concurs with his namesake in what he has said ou,

adopt some measu! _ gro \ - evil.
He espoused the interest of all persons, and in that
view he could not conceive the measure calculated to
do good. The measures before the House had no
consistency; they would not afford any particular
good to the landed interest. His opinion was, that
other Legislators would be as anxious to repeal them,
as they were now to pass them. The measure would
be of little use to the grower, yet, under all the cir-
cumstances; he should not hue:fele with the progress
of the Bill.
Mr. WILSON could not see how the Hon. Mem-
ber for Callington had discovered that the deprecia-
tion of the currency WAS thirty per cent. There was
no ground upon which that proposition could be made
out. He suppos ted the motion.
Sir ROBERT WILSON said, the interest of the
manufacturer and consumer, as well as the landed
interest, ought to be supported ; but when that topic
was fairly argued, the Noble Lord said the argument
was revolutionary. That, however, had been said by
the Noble Lord on almost every public question.
Mr. LYTTLETON rose to explain some allusion
made to the disturbance among the colliers in Staf-
fordshire. There was a determination among the
men not to take provision instead of money for wages.
The Right Hon. Gentleman was right in saying the
masters had offered them three shillings a day, two
pints of beer, and fuel. The men had since consented
to return to work on those terms.

Mr. DENISON supported the proposition of the
Member for Coventry.
Mr. BROUGHAM would not follow the example
of an Hon. Friend. He should no; exculpate himself.
In Goo's name why should he? He considered him-
self, not only at liberty to vote for the Noble Lord's
propositions but bound by consistency to give his
consent to the motion ; for, at the commencement pf
the last Session, he put upon the Journals of the
House a similar motion.—The House then divided :

For bringing up the Report
Against it - - -
Majority -

On readmission to the Gallery, the House was in Commit-
tee, and Mr. Husrassou on his legs, stating the principles upon
which he established his Resolutions. The country had grown
corn to excess, and too expensively. The loss consequently
was great to the growers. That circumstance he considered
the cause of the present embarrassment. To this moment
there had been a loss in agricultural capital, which would
at last affect the capital of manufactures. They placed them-
selves with price and averages in the situation of glut and
scarcity. The cultivator of the soil was placed in a situation in
which he could not foresee the injuries he might sustain. An
the course of a few years the country would see the necessity of
keeping the trade in foreign corn free. He wished to put his
Resolutions upon the Journals, for the purpose of pointing out
what be considered necessary to stop the fluctuation of price.
De admitted, in the present state of agricultural alarm, that it
was with difficulty his Noble Friend had made one step toward!
improvement. The Right lion. Member concluded by propos-
ing his Resolutions, which were negatived by the Marquis of
Lontentoesate. The. Noble Marquis did not deny the principis
they professed, but he did not then see how they could apply.
Mr. RICARDO said, the practical principle of his ROC
Hon. Friend warat variance with his argument, and as he did
notconsider the Right Hon. Gelitlentan's Resolutions were do.
serving of more public notice than his own he should mime to
insert them ow the Journals. The Hon. Member aceeedingly
proposed his Resolutions, which were negatived.
The Resolutions of the Committee were then agreed to, tbe
House resumed, and the Report was received.

155
22
-151

rug
& RICE
loolotioa of Ms
with to tho
'jam aI4M
advised the 'Crows

. . . .
, . . .
. -
. .
. •
. ,
. -
. . .• • - . • - ,
'ad Imet -6thalr"daistualharetll.l" "PIM bilke ialita till& 'his . I /kola EitaitirellDdmlintrAWaSte itrallsii,46 tel 7i. 'ire'
idhurst. that thel
was' ilitored, the aultitatida -4/f the tilifaheYißesahittoa 4l_)"riligile•was refedolll444lc4,lll4' erid reissues-116a
pafin.l"; 614aliw.buthi'sitiPlait:Itititt"he rcli4ordieetnen*Sinees W
e could soil had been enmity abandoned. The few to Sehich •
t of 20 he adverted bad taken from the landed Interirst all . others to etplitil.fi. —.The ikonou'' rable4entlelial• follow, and shews that to such a carne it is aim&
But slat
sin taqinatiou,tkorathbise.pGriennctiipelatesansof vicaomnomsoy
alanifdonduonaWntebthav the
rect. protection, and be would ask if the tountri ought to tells me, the thirkettilittois or *Vet I hiiiispektt 'ltlitfelitneeesser' y thin a stop should be put.. With re-' .
Member endure that salaries and pensions should remain, now , was preceded haveherst.sal
tbiltilierei.ertimailet . .
ime the the currency was restored, at that rate to which they now stand np.
made, had been raised,while we bad a paper circulation?— those Resolutions that Want - 6:l4lrect 4 di* 0111"11 ;ilithurh2s pot' in print. dI
his
fitdsPeetwhaht speeches,
ste hoe puletbliswhhitfn4Re
.
e Hon. Under these circumstances he called on the House to question as to the propriety of kretuen,to cash
e which pause. The change in the currency had, in effect, payments on the part of the Bant?— -(11, hear.) of contradictions, as 'compared with his evidence .i
ex (Mr. raised salaries and pensions from 50 to 50 per cent. But the Hon. Gentleman says he whistisfaid to the (Here it was remarked that the Honourable Mem.
t differ- When that was considered, it must be seen that the Noble Lord (the Menther for Salisbury), as they were btu for. Callington was not the Mr. Attwood who bad
the cor- course pursued by the Government, instead of up- going out of the Honso„ that it was to the'standard given evidence before the Committee of that House:)
, what he might say
of ave- holding the credit of the country, inflicted on it one of 51. 10s. that he wished to return. I know not I beg the Hon. Member's pardon for the mistake, but
some of the statements of the witness were so like
to that Noble Lord
.when be was
ppeared of the foulest blots which it had ever sustained.
average The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was surprised , leaving the House; bat this I know' that the Reso. what he has advanced, that I took them for his, and . .
s, from that the House should be called upon to pause, and in ' lotions he submitted to the Howie called for a re- could almost persuade myself that the witness learned
9it was fact to decline receiving this Report till the scheme sumption of cash payments from May_l, 1822; and them from hearing him repeat them. Others, hover. ,
1
es taken of the Hon. Member could be realised. When he whatever. the Hon. Gentleman whispered to that ever; are at variance with what we have heard frgrrs
ars, and said that all salaries and pensions should come down, Noble Lord, I have a right to oppose those Resolu- him. Thus the witness, in answer to a question 'Per 1 i
pate all he could only recognize one of those attempts which tions--(Hear, hear).--I have now'to offer a few to hirn,in the committee, asserts—, Nothing can de: ' M
the rea- were so common on the opposite side of the House to words in reply to what has fallen from the Hon. termine the price of an article but the state of supply .
e House excite the passions where it would be much better to Member for Callington. He has bestowed a portion and demand. The Hon. Member maintains a doc. •
distress; establish convictions—(Hear, hear). The pensions of his sarcasm on me; but as I share that sarcasm trine directly the reverse. When the Hon.Gentlemaik
a great and salaries, it was well known to the House, had, with my Hon. Friend, if he will allow the esteem and speaks of corn as furnishing a less variable standard , ~
t delude with some exceptions, been generally reduced. 1 hose respect I feel for him in place of that intimacy which than gold, I must refer him to the fluctuations in the ,' .1 I
ere con- who held office had suffered from the depreciation of generally gives the claim to friendship, to call him price of corn which took place between 1700 and •
1
;s or of paper, and had not gained by the reformation of the so, the Member for Portarlington; as he, I say, 1783, when the. changes were so great, while there
agricul- currency. He therefore called upon the House not shares the sarcasm of the Hon. Gentleman with me, was so little variation in the price of gold, that could I; ;
that of to be led away by the declamatory sophisms of the lam well contented to bear it. He (Mr. Attwood) the HoO. Gentleman prevail on the House to adopt
re other Hon. Gentleman. He replied at some length to the has alluded to what I said the other night as to that corn as a standard, he would find that infinitely more 4
i , ,
nv reco- remarks of the Hon. Member for Essex. To exclude which might bring a full Exchequer. And what liable to alteration in its value than gold, or than i ' •
,rat was. corn from being imported altogether was not the oh- did I say on that subject? I remarked, that if the even his beloved paper. Let me refer him to one 1 .
1 to see ject of the present Bill, but to regulate its admission currency of the country had raised (as had been document (the only one I have with me, not expect- i
fits were into the market, and effectually to guard against the asserted) the taxation of the country 40 per cent, it' ing this subject would come before the House) chew= ! .1."
..ages of country being inundated with foreign corn for the did appear to me a very extraordinary circumstance, ing what have been the prices of corn since 1812. il -''
cis could time to come. This was accomplished by the duty of and consolatory at the same time, that the same In the year 1815 wheat was 645. the quarter, gold 14 4.t
portion- 17s- per quarter now to be imposed, which, added to taxes which had been previously borne could con- being at that time 51. Gs. per ounce. But what was •1' -
state of 10s. at least for commercial profit, would always make tinue to be paid ; and one of two things resulted from the consequence of the paper being diminished in 1817? I'o
, mostly it come here, when it could be imported, with a this fact—the finances of the country must be in a; Why then, when paper was nearly at par, the price
nee with burden of 275. on it. He denied that faith was broken most saisfactory condition, or the currency could of the quarter of wheat was 04. Notwithstanding .
i .
favour- with the farmer, as the Hon. Member for Essex had not have increased their pressure in the ratio sup-' an alteration of the currency to the amount of 14 or i 14,
disposed contended, by altering the importation price from posed. But did I say that I was glad taxes to such 15_ per cent. the price of wheat was increased from 1 .
is gains. 80s. to 70s. as the latter price was, in the present an amount were wrung from the country? No; but 645. to 91s. Is not this ‘ufficient to prove (patting t•
.verages, state of the currency, a greater protection than the I was glad that without more legal processes than the state of the currency out of the question) that
the far- former was at the time of its being granted— (Hear). usual ; that without extraordinary measures being nothing is so variable as the price of coin ? Of all d''
yof 20s. He therefore considered that there was no ground resorted to in the collection of the revenue such was commodities, as Mr. Tooke has observed, in his esi. I;
that the for the alarm which that Hon. Gentleman had felt. the state of the case, because this alone proved that dence,-corn is that which is most liable to change of 44,.
1 manu- The present moment he conceived the fittest that the great mass of the people were in a flourishing price. lam sorry to have anticipated so much of 1
agricul- could have been selected for legislation on such a condition—(Hear, hear).—lt was my wish to refute the discussion shortly to come on, but the Hon. Mem. ,
iich had subject. He hoped enough had been said to justify some of the assertions made before the Agricultural berreferred so directly to me in the courseofhisspeech, , i
utter for the bringing up of the Report. He begged to ex- Committee, which went to represent all consumption that I was unwilling to let it pass without taking this ,
';
re would press his thanks to the Honourable Member for Mid- to have been greatly diminished. The .questions put imperfect notice of what he had advanced:' . 44
sure the hurst, for the moral and political lecture which he to one of the witnesses, and the answers, tan thus : Mr. ELLICE said, all the evils of the country had
terry, the had read to those on the other side cf the House who' .. Do you know that a great diminution of consumption of been occasioned by deprecia:ion of the currency. The • '
on. Gen- had favoured a late motion. It must have been to the necessaries. of life has occurred generally,. though
. not In the
od injury was just beginning ; the effect was not felt to 1
espected, him a painful duty, but he had performed it in a man- whereP proportion t ietionq
enquiries
is
esa t
have Birmingham
principally and
beeni in lt s d
inreectgtbe bdo7tr o, , .
same i the full extent. He considered, with the Member
: on the ner the most meritorious. The motion, supported have no doubt that a great diminution of consumption of the for Callington, that the country had not arrived at 'I :,
by arguments, in favour of remitting £20,000,000 necessaries of life has occurred generally throughout the United the knowledge of all the consequences. If they went
Ito make in taxes, involving national bankruptcy, which had Kingdom:'. on as they had been going some ) ens. there wouldii. 1
,
Du you consider salt as a necessary of life ?—Certainly. be a confiscation of the property of the country to the ..
Amend- been voted for by thirty-seven Members, was most .. Do you consider soap as a necessary of life?—Certainly. 1 1 i
I, and he injurious. The speech of the Honourable Member oDo you consider mak as a necessary of life ?—Yes. monied interest. He should oppose any attempt to ,14!
a any of for Midhurst had produced several explanatory state- "Do you consider candles as a necessary of life?—Yes. sacrifice the interest of the public creditor to any in- I"
"Do you consider sugar as a necessary of life ?—I do not ; but terest of a partial description. It was necessary to
erabund- meats from other Hon. Members, and in their way ,;r;
- 1 .. 1-_-... -.......i —I .......1.. Th.. t:erts .., .4% irh thnt the poor people do. .. adopt some measure to prevent the growth of the evil. ' .1
.....

--- - -
X POSTMASTER IN IRELAND. .
:asked the Noble Marquis windier it was dm ,
Majesty's Government to adopt any restantiort
be postmaster of Ireland? . 1
of LONDONDERRY said, whoa GovigiOnses
wit to take measures WM 11,40 IS tin rot