Star.
London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

island 8.000 fnement 1 c .'ti net believe that all these viceroy
elude! b. r• Ilea t- o days ;Jo- al for by the bill, he very much
doubted d the ruing could c :reed upon ; in short he was tads-
thd it eas a cAusa n ; anti .etther, 11 at the expense of elections
instead of dig ridectil by :he rreposed measure would be in.
creased. He objected also to 'he manner in which the Sovereign's
name had been mixed un with the measure, it would sully have been
quite enough to have said thet the bill was introduced by his Majesty's'
Ministers, without going so far as to state in so many words that the
King hail :ie ;t Ills sanction. He repeated. if ever there was a sub.
trot which th mantled ilelibelate consideration, the present measure was
that subject. efeciirg es it did as great a change in the constitution of
the- country as dal the revolution of 1668—(Hear, from the opposi.
lion.) I. was until, itiactety at the same time, and he was persuaded,
that if the vote by ballot had been introduced instead, very few balls
would have been put in fur the bill itself. All were surprised at the
lIIt mane, men of every political feeling, Whig and Tory, as well u
ultra.Rseheal. If noble lords who favoured the measure would but
wake the inquiry. they would find that a love of reform no doubt ex-
isted. but not in the degree that they were willing to believe. (Hear,
hear. hear.) The Ministers of the Crown, doubtless, were
popular. but. God forbid that they should always be guided in their
deliberations by the popular voice. The settlement of the Catholic
question had been drawn in as a parallel case: but there was no
analogy : that questioa was decided upon the pure and simple grounds
of exclusion from tights. It was not so in the present case, the bene.
lit conferred ;Top one class being taken from anoilter.—(Hear.) He
had already observed, that it was attacking the established Institutions
of the country ; a government not exactly republican in its nature, but
something, probably, approaching to that of France, might be the re-
sult. The Noble Lord then read a copious extract from the Examiner
newspaper of the Bth of March, to show the sweeping nature of the
measure of Reform ; the writer in the paper alluded to, said that Mi.
nisters had exceeded his expectations • without Reform convulsion was
inevitable; be (the writer) hailed the measure as a step to a greater
good; though it did not give the people every thing, it took arms from
tlnar enemies. (Ilear.) Ministers might carry the question, aided as
Caw were by the powerful voice of the public pees!, but ie (Lord
It' harnclifre) would forewarn them of the consequence.; for if the 13111
pea:tad and Parliament were dissolved, tire new Parliament would be
neither more nor less than a conventional Parliament. (Hear from the
Oaposition.) The noble lord concluded by re-asserting that the pre-
,ent measure would lead to a result nearly approacing tog revolution,
and exprevitig his attachment to the present monarchical form of Go.
vernment. He then moved that there be laid before the house an ac.
vaulty of the population of the various counties, towns, burghs, &c. of
the United Kinadten, as at 1821.

'rue question havinz been put from the %Voulsack.
Viscount SI DM OUT!! and Lord DURHAM presented them.
.:fives at the saute time; each noble peer seemed desirous to obtain a
!T.:bring.
Lord 10ENVON rose to order. _ _ _

Kul GREY was under:.tood to say that he should move for :he
of the house, as to which of the noble lola, should have a

bearing.
iscount SID3IOUTII observed that he. never had felt greater
pain than h.: had experienced during the delivery of the greater part of
the. noble /ord's (Wharticliffe's) speech. He was apprehensive the house
had been irregular in allowing that speech, which embraced a discus.
siert on the details of a bill which had not yet passed the other
House of Parliament.
Lord WIIA R NC LIFFE rose to order.

Viscount SID3IOUTH, however, resumed. He conjured their
lindsLips not to prolong a discussion which was irregular and in.
convenient.

Earl GREY would bear testimony to the fairness and candour of
his noble friend (Lord Ne-harneliffe) who, when he gave notice of his
!mention of moving for the present returns. had intimated be should
take that epportunity of discussing the question of Reform ; how far
h might be convenient to discuss the details of a bill which might
roever come into that house, it was not for him to say ; he trusted, how.
aver, that there was nothing on the rules of the house to prevent the
discussion from going on.
Lord ELDON contended, to stop the debate would not be eontrary
to parliamentary usage ; for his own part, he took shame to himself
fini not rising sooner, and preventing, if it acre possible, a discussion
on a bill not before their lordships' house. He should observe of the
measure itself, that he considered it of a more revolutionary tendency
than any other he had ever known to be brought before parliament.
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that it was only after a
seeech against the measure of reform of two hours' duration, and when
a Noble Baron (Durham) one of the framers of the measure, rose to
answer that speech, that noble lords discovered the house to be disorderly.
Noble lords had been listening for two hours to what ought not to have
been heard for two minutes. The house had been wrong for two hours,
but then it was in hearing a speech against the measure. (A laugh.)
He was of opinion, that debate on the details of the measure of reform
ought to be used as sparingly as possible ; but as his noble friend
(Lord ‘Vharncliffe) with his usual candour, had given notice of his in-
tention to discuss the question, he (the Lord Chancellor) saw no other
course which could with propriety be pursued, but that of proceeding
with the question before the house.
Lord DURHAM considered he was entitled to rise and answer the
remarks of the noble lord (Whameliffe.) It was not his intention to go
through all the poin:s of the noble lord's speech. For his own part he
(Lord Durham) was glad of an opportunity to give that noble lord any
xplanation of the measure under discussion in his power. There was
cee rof their lordships more ready than he was to acquit his noble friend
or.all personal motives in bringing forward the present debate. With
respect to the remarks made upon the public press by that noble lord,
he (Lord Durham) would observe that the public press of the land was
o::ly the echo of public opinion. With one or two exceptions of the lowest
character that press was eot only in favour of a Reform in Parliament,
be: of the very measure proposed by ministers. He disclaimed either in
parliament or out of it having made use of the sacred name of the King
in any manner to influence any party respecting the measure before the
other House of Parliament. Thus much he would say, however,
when his Majesty suffered the present Government to be formed, it
was with the express condition that the measure of reform was to be
brought forward ; but under what circumstances, he would ask, did
tee present Administration come into oilier ? The last Ministry fell by
tee ticelaration of the people, more especially occasioned by a declare-
teal of the Noble Duke (Wellington) opposite, which was made in that
House; against all reform. He (Lord Durham) had heard that
Neele Duke declare, if he were called upon to form a Govern-
ment as mar perfection as possible, it would be the then Minis-
try. It was tic patty opinion, no vote on the civil list whatever,
but because the last Ministry lust the confidence of the country,
that it had to resign ; it was owing to no party measure, on the side of
the opposition. If there had been any limeous opposition on foot,
would is not have been manifested on the bringing in of the Catholic
Relief Bill ? The conduct of the Opposition on that measure showed
that they were most anxious to support the noble duke as far as his
tneasutes merited that support. In short, the public mind had been
pacified by the resignation of the noble duke and his colleagues ;
mallety having been restored, the present ministers could not have done
less than to proceed to a measure of reform without evasion ; that the
measure proposed had given satisfaction was evident, from the public
meetings held every where in its support, not only in England, but
also in Scotland. He begged to direct attention to the great and
important meeting of the merchants, bankers, and others of the city of
London, which was lately held; all these persons declare, that what-
ever their speculations may have been with respect to reform, they
d. rl .red themselves satisfied with the present measure. The noble
ben .. then entered into the details of the bill, which removed the elec-
tive front some counties, and preserved it in others, contending, that
if the county of Durham, with which he had to do, had been disfran-
chisal in part, the sante measure, as a matter of justice, would re.
(pea to be extended to the three Ridings of Yorkshire, to Warwick-
sn or, leeeerershire,ai.d eaters, all of which would be excluded; for
his (ten cart he wanted to save for !timeline parliamentary interest, he
thimeht it an expensive amusement to have any thing to do with Peril-
aine. Ley election*. His Majesty's Ministers had been actuated solely
by a a toolt for the good of the country, and 'to have a share in the te.
flown of rot ingiee forward such a measure of reform. They divided
the Lomeli, into two classes—the curable and the incurable; the incu-
rable they certainly meant to disfranchise ; the curable they intended
by their measure to purify. (Hear.) The noble baron then quoted
passage from " Locke's Treatise on Government," to the effect that'
the things in this world were continually fluctuating ; nothing remained
long in the same state ; therefore old forms of representation became
unequal and disproportionate to the wants of a people—satis populi
supreme rex. From the time of Locke and downwards, most
popular writers had taken the same view of the question. (Hear.)
He denied that this measure was any alteration of the Constitution.—
but if it was, it nas one which would be of the greatest advantage
to the country. lie should offer no opposition to the production of
the papere, as it was the wish of his Majesty's Governmeet to afford
every intone:leen on the subject. They had no desire to injure the
inotitutions of the country—they wished, however, to effect such a
change in the representation, that noble lords may sit in that house
without suspicium to aria to the splendour of the Crown, to unite
boils hutiees of Parliament, and to give confidence to the country.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE had never said that the lower orders were
hostile to a monarchical form of government; but he had said, and he
believed that there were many people in this country far, very far, re-
moved from the lower classes, that wished to bring the Government
nearer a republican form.
The Duke of RICHMOND rose amid loud cries of question, and
from the number of peers leaving the house it was a long time before
the noble duke was able to obtain a heating: —He gave his cordial as-
sets to the measure of Reform.—lt had been alleged against bins, that
he opposed tee disfranchisement of the fotty-shilling freeholders in Ire.
lased, and it was therefore asked how he could support a measure of dis-
fraechisement like the present ? The caeca bore no similarity. He
should like to know what analogy there was between disfranchising
sixty rotten boroughs, and thousauds of those who had committed no
crime ? He thought the interests of the rotten boroughs were very well
protected in the other house. The system had able advocates in an
eteSecretary of State, and an ex-Attorney-General. He of all men was
unwilling to subvert the Constitution ; but as willing as any noble