Star.
London, England, 1830-03-05 00:00:00

from the necessary provition for the celebration of divine worship,
and the temporary di tbsduties connected with such dig.
city or beneficeduring=suspension of pennanent vpointment.
as was some yea:sante effected in the case of LkMeld catbadraL"
Mr. S. RICE seconded die motion.
Sir R. INOLIS had heard, since he had had the honour of a seat
in parliament, the right boe baronet make. every year, the very
same complaint of the church of Ireland with which he had just
favoured the home. Upon former occasions the right bon. baronet
had captained to the house the grounds of his belief that the prin-
ciples of the reformation were not edvancing, par 4 passes, with the
population of that country ; but had on these occasions, made the
withbcdding of the Catholic relief bill the cause of the declension.
Now, he could not subscribe to the right hen. baronet's doctrine,
either as • questing of fact, or as M explanation of that fees, sup.
posing its correctness; because he thought the question for the house
to detenulne wea—aot what the Protestant church might have been
in the time of Blisabeds, or of Primate Basher, or Bishop Stone;
but what was its present condition under Its presort prelacy, and pro-
bable masa, as far as might be predicted from that condition.—
(Hese.) He could show that since the time mentioned by the right
honourable baronet there had been a large increase of the number of
residents, in fact to an extent equal to the whole number of
beneficed clergymen in the year 1796. Indeed, he believed,
that it was unnecessary to give the elegy of Ireland the assist-
ance of the legislature to promote the residence of their body,
as the tendency of all their acts was to ensure so desirable an
object. The proportion of resident clergy since the year 178 E, was
as 1.000 to 1,950. That in some lone and dreary places curates
might be found disadvantageously placed, he had no doubt,
but isolated instances of that kind must always occur under
any improved system. As to glebe-houses, he could say that, in
the single diocese of Armagh; at present the number erected ex-
ceeded by 200 that In all Ireland in the year 1792. Indeed, the
right hon. baronet could only find 240 absentees in 940 parishes..
Phis he could hardly think too great a proportion under the various
circumstances in which the clergy of Ireland were placed ; but even if It
were the reverse, he could not on such pounds recognise the doctrine,
that It was the dutyof the house to apportion the revenues of the
thrush, or afany greet corporation, in a manner not contemplated by
the law under white they were held. He begged alserto remark, Suit
when the right hon. bart. made his calculation he did not distinguish
the number of glebes which were in lay hands ; in fact, there were
1,480 such glebes in Ireland, and for these the church. as • body,
were not answerable. Were the resolutions at this time proposed
limited, as were those of 1819, he perhaps would not object to them;
but as the proposition stood, he should meet it by moving the pre-
vious question.
Lord F. I‘. GOWER said that he felt a great difficulty in
following the two preceding epeakers, who were so much better
versed In metathetical matters then he could pretend to be, and the
more so, as he could not exactly concur in either of their propnsi-
tions. When the right hon. baronet quoted the authority of lewd
Bacon upon the mighty changes always wrought by time, and said I
that the church of Ireland was the only exception to the truth of that I
opinion, he must differ from him; because he thought time bad
made vast improvements in the whole ecclesiastical system of that
country. Allusion had been made to the act of Elizabeth tocom-
pel the performance of the church service of Ireland in the Lathe
but lie thought the sagacious intention of that princes, was thereby
to render the reformation more popular in Ireland, by causing its
service to he read in the same language as the people were amis.
tome! to hear in the catholic ritual. On the subject of unions, he
knew that the utmost care was taken by the Privy Council in ire.
land, and particularly by that portion of the hierarchy who were
members, not only to revolt their accumulation, but to
diminish their amount in every case in which reduction was
practicable. That in some cases curates may linger in obscurity.
he could easily imagine, and knew not how to prevent. Similar ex.
metrics might be found in the profession of the lsw, which was that
where the time of merit more generally led to advancement. He
had no objection whatever to grant in substance the information
which his right honourable friend sought; for he knew it would
be idle and mischievous to attempt to wrap up the Church of
Ireland in obscurity; but there was one paragraph in his right
hon. friend's resolutions to which he must promptly object—it was
that in which he recommended the Crown to suspend the appoint.
nient of any dignitary until the state of the dioase,and the application
of its revenueswere carefully inquired into. He was not aware how
this part of the resolutions could be acted upon, for as the Law
mood, during the interval between the demise of one dignitary and
the appointment of another, the revenues of the diocese were se-
questrated for the benefit of the next incumbent. A resplution of
the house, therefore, could not contravene the general law. In con.
elusion, the ameodment which he would suggest was, that an humble
address be presented to his Majesty, for the appointment of a corn.
mission, to proceed with as
bo
litthdeilea itceass possible, to inquire into
the state of the several parochial in Ireland, and ascertain
the extent of their unions, and how far such were constituted, as
well as the fitness and propriety of dissolving any of them at such
fatua period as vacancies arose.
Mr. OEOROE MOORE said, he should vote for the amend-
ment of the hon. member for Oxford, because he could not consent
by a side wind to cast imputations upon the church of Ireland, than
whom he believed there did not exist a more honourable body
among any class of Christians. He spoke of his own personal
knowledge of its members during the last 97 years. Entertaining
this opinion, he could not consent to the appointment of a corn.
mission which would go to suspend over the heads of such men
a chagrezlitich he knew and believed to be utterly unfounded.
He a that the Irish church was disposed to reform any
abused that existed in it. During tke last 20 years, in conse.
quence of the di,ninution of pluralities and the dissolution of unions,
the number of beneficed clergymen had been doubled, and the bishops
took care to provide for the most deserving curates. He had no know-
ledge of the particular circumstance stated by the hon. bars. (Sir J. N.)
respecting the bishop of Ferns neglecting, when he was bishop of Li.
merick, to promote &curate who had served long in that diocese, but
he did know that the right rev. prelate alluded to had promoted,
since he became bishop of Ferns, no less than fifteen curates to
livings of between 1501. to 5011 ht a year each, without having any
other acquaintance with them but what was the consequence of his
ooderiastical superintendence. He wouki support the honourable
baronet (Sir It. Inglis) in getting rid of the motion, but he would
be glad that an address should be made to the crown for the pur-
pose of bringing down to the present period that information, part
of which was already before the house. If the public trete put in
possession of every circumstance respecting the Irish church, a great
deal a misconception now prevailing would be removed.
Ale E did pot see how the hon. member who had just eat
. down could reconcile the vote he intended to give against the motion
of the hon. baronet (Sir J. Newport) with the last observation he
made, from cinch it was to be concluded that he was in favour of
inquiry. With that presumption he should call upon the MO.
Ilicrnbet tO support a motion he intended to bring forward in the
course of the present session, for the purpose of instituting an in-
quiry into the entire state of the Irak church.. He thought that
establishment inconsistent with the present }tate of things, acrd be
hoped to see the day when there would be only two or four bran9P•
in Ireland, and that 18 of them would be got rid of at one swoop
and he would propose that the revenues of the superseded dignitas
ries should be patch into the consolidated fund.
Mr. S. RICE thought that there were good reasons fur
.prellaring
the amendment moved by the noble lord to the original notion;
but he seemed the hon. baronet (Sir R. Inglis) of the consequences
of the course he was pursuing, in opposing ail propositions for in.
quiry into the church establishment of Ireland, front whatever
quarter they came. He did not yield to any man in attachment to
that church, and his interests were more involved in it then those
of the bon. member for Oxford, but he should ecosider_hintself a
bad Mend to tha. establishment by opposing every mother for la.
quiry. He assured the lion bars-suarty lumbers af that church did not
participate in his opinions, and though they were once to
any reform whatever, they had since seen reason to alter their d
opi.
owns. The church were at lira much opposed to. the emery act,
and tithe hill, but he would now ask arty member of the ebureb
*holier !truth good had not resulted from the latter measure in per.
titular ? Ile conceived that if' the house should not carry the reel.
our question, the noble lord's anaendmeot would be at once assented
to; and he was sure that de result of inquiry would be to make the
church of Ireland more efficient.
The CHANCELLOR of the • EXCHEQUER was surprised
that the member for rzford should have moved the previous.
(potion, after stating that the church of Ireland lay under the
heat Loot charges. The best:way to. clear it rtf.thr charges was by in-
'Plithoosi he was confidentthel.the result would be to show the public
test the church' of Ireland had been anxiously andsconstantly im
proving its system eluting the last 4.0
„year*. • • Aloft *Aeration. was
paid by every rank to the discharge of duties, and the church new
comprised a larger body of pet,, and under, better euperintendenss.
than at any .forritee period ci Jrish.historr. He thought the ens to
of ioquiry would be to, prieie time fatey mad he tberelbie
'Teed the Itun.,, baronet would net .Persist in moving the psi
luaus question. He defended the character of the Bishop of Fermi,
• one of whose first acts, 'he said, on. being translated to the diocese
of !ems, was to promote a Curate Of, long'. standing. with wham he
b_ ad.prvviuusly no connexion. t be lion. baronet had alto refuted
to the right rev. primate refusing to grant a faculty. The case was
tattled before the Chancery of Ireland, and the primate was de.
felted it was true, but.not onaup.subetentlaldbjectlea,.but by an'
roontage which was taker of annoteehnical aver.. He erould nit
üble the house further caribia.particular °duke. but sit down,,
after Vain • requesting the lionastonst not *Al:kill* hours 10' the;
necessf7 of dividing on the question (hear-)
Mr. 'RANT said dust ntittieters,' in the which,course , the/ had
adopted on this exertion, pers.'tbrowing the'estabili fiel 'nse& or,
I.telood open to the at take of 'its init'nfes. He wall-6111.4A1*
me established church in 'lreland in nterespect required reformation
more than the esturth In this 'countriviird • that It "'IMO
itself every facility arid riteposidon *newt • reformatioe.
lie considered the object for which this motion was brought tbrward

was the desnuction of the established church in Ireland, and he
should therefrxe opines it.
Mr. PEEL said, the hoe. member would appear not to have been
Meow • when his noble frietid, the secretary for heland, mode the
don to which the right hon. bare. opposite hod assented, for
lee he could hardly have stated that die object. of that propos,.
OM was the destruction of the established church lb Ireland prop
wee the original motion of the hon. baronet ? He proposed that an
address should be presented to the crown, to appoint a commission
to investigate the state of the established church in Ireland, to In.
glare respecting pluralities and unions of parishes there, with a view
to ascertaining proprist of allowing the same to continue in
waansesstttlg to the crown the propriety of sus.
des wadde= ee any dignity or benefice- trichina its gift.
so muuninatise hal hem made respecting the condition of
the cathedral or chum\ maneeted with such dignity or benefice;
Intli that if it should be Sand necessary to rebuild or repair the
the revenues of such dignity or benefice should be appro.
rto that purpose. His (Mr. Peel's) noble friend having ob-
to that part of the right hon. baronet's motion which went to
the appropriation of the revenues of benefices in Inland to the
,Inerpose mentioned, consented to that portion of the motion which
proposed the appointment of a commission to inquire and report
respecting pluralities and unions of parishes in the Irish church.
with a view to increase the number of working clergy in that church,
by the separation of unions, and the abolition of pluralities,
where it would be found proper to adopt such measures. There
was nothing new In the power proposed to be given to the
commission, for it was already possessed by the Privy Cain.
eft in Ireland. He (Mr. Peel) was full as anxious for the promo.
don of the interests of the church of Ireland as the hon. member for
Dover, and he did not think that that hon. member would succeed
in imposing upon any one who had attended to this discussion by
raising the cry of the " church in danger."—(hear.) The boa
gentleman said that his Majesty's ministers would not dare to pro•
pose the of such a commission respecting the church
of . If the hon. member had paid somewhat more attention
to iastical matters during the ream, he would have known
that the Crown had appointedowithout any interference on the part
of this house, a commission to inquire into the whole state of the
erelesiastical jurisdiction in this country—(bear.) Such a commis.
she bed been actually appointed to inquire into the state of eccle-
siastic:a affairs in England, and it had not as yet been extended to
Inland. What the bon. gentleman said, therefore, regarding the
threatened destruction and spoliation of the established church in
Ireland was quite without foundation. He (Mr. Peel) would ven-
ture to say, that the established church in Ireland would gain con.
siderably by the adoption of a moderate and well.considered re.
formation in its affairs.—(Hear, hear.) That such a reformation
was in progress already, he could of his own knowledge state; and
be could add, that during the last 2b years greater efihrts had been
made in that church towards Improving its condition than in any
establishment, civil or ecclesiastical, in this country; and the
ministry of that church, looking at them as a body, he would my,
were as excellent and deserving a body of men as any church could
boast of ; and they were as anxious as any individuals could be to
promote the objects for which this commission was appointed.
Whenever the time should arrive that they would be called upon to
deal with the property of the church of Ireland upon any other
principles than those which applied to any other species of pro-
perty—if ever such a proposition should be made—a proposition
to which the present one bore no relation or similitude whatever—
' then would be the time fot those who were as anxious as he (Mr. p)1
was for the maintenance of the church, to oppose such an M.
tempt. He was sure the hon. member for Oxford did not as te
say that those revenues which rectors appropriated for the sandesef
their curates were placed beyond legislative control. At the same
time he (Mr. Peel) quite agreed with him respecting the app
tion of' any of the revenues of the church, that it was a thing
should be touched upon with the greatest delicacy and caution, aid
only with a view to the promotion of learning and religion. If esey ,
effort should he made to deal with church property upon a beige I
scale, or to interfere more extensively with its appropriation, he
(Mr. Peel) would certainly be prepared to resist it. This cam■
mission, however, had no such object in view. It was not at an
intended to injure the Irish church, and he was sure, on the con.
teary, that it would tend to promote the best interests of that church.
Mr. TRA NT explained.
Mr. SADLER was not opposed to any reform that was oliy
called for with regard to unions and pluralities, but he shatM'ep. I
pose the present motion, for he could not understand why a ceem..
mission should be appointed to Inquire respecting ecclesiastical plu.
ranks, while no inquiry was proposed with regard to civil pima.:
ties, which were at least equally objectionable, aodfar more injurious
ti the country.
Sir C. WETHERELL said, he should have been much mere
, dispeed to grant such a coninassion as that proposed, if he had not
Bead the speech or the right hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel.) The reason,
1 which the right bun. Secretary gave for appointing such a commis.
read Inland was, that a similar commission had been already
appointed quonif England. That was the right hon. gentleman's
reason her granting this coonnisakm. (Mr. Peel—" No, n 0,")...
He (Sir C. Wetherell) understood that to be his reason, and other
persons took it in the same light. He now said that was not his
argument; but he (Sir C. Wetherell) certainly understood him to
argue that they should grant such a commission email Inland, be.
Pun a similar one had been granted road England : if that was
net the argument of the tight bon. Secretary, why it was not his'
;tegument. (A laugh.) And if that was not his asgumeat, what he
had said respecting the commission appointed in this country should
be struck out of his speech; and 'if he meant it as an ergument, In
(Sir C. Wetherell) would say tense no argument at all. Was the corn.,
mission in this country appointed to inquire into thedutio: of bishops,
and deans, and rectors, and to interhre with the appropriation of the
revenues of the church ? No; it was 'appointed simply to Inquire into
the state of the ecclesiastical courts, which, as every one knew, like
ill other branches of the administration of justice in this country, re.,
quired some little revision. The original motion was he an sd.l
dress to the crown, calling upon the crown to commit a wooed
violation of law by suspending the functions of bishops and other
dignitaries, where vacancies should arise, until the church was
repaired or rebuilt out of the revenues attached to such dignity or
benefice. If the hon. baronet bad confined Ma motion merely to the'
appointment of a committee to inquire respecting pluralities mil
unions, be (Sir C. Wetherell) might have supported it; but he
bliadd object to such a motion when he saw it introduced In mai-
.pany with the propositions which were attached to it. Miniattn could
not agree to those parts of the motion, because they called ups
the crown to commit g gross violation of the coronation oath red of
the law of the land ; but they were content to adopt the f& of
the right hon. baronet's motion—that respecting pluralities and
unkins. Now, both the chancellor of the exchequer and the noble
setsthery far Ireland, while supponiegthst proposition, to the beef
mason than could be given for not adopting It ; for they stated that'
the privy council in Ireland at thissonereat possensed the juridic.
tion and power to do all that was repent in the.addrossaa amended
lby the noble lord. The conduct of the privy council 'lathes respect
„bed not. been impeached, and the appointment of such a•commieden
es
this would virtually go to censure the privy council in haw'
fa 'a neglect of duty of which no one seemed it. He shenii
imam support the amendment proposed by' his hon. friend-She
Witsfetie foe Oxford. If the privy maned in Ireland negimeed he.
Atty. it was open to the right hon. monetary to write a Wisp he
It, desiring it to carry on he labour* more briskly thee It lad
done.—(a laugh:) lie (Sir C. Wetherell) was Dot opposed to the
poetical part of the right Asa, baronet's motion regarding union
med. pluralities, bat be would not agree to an.address that wan
'ft censure the privy coueell in Ireland fee a neplect of duty,
viotne's theonrethewasothD: evidence of the
sale seemed g fbaset. Ei
now tliziermeasuriell pl.
wholly adopted by the right hon. gentleman who an on that /deer
elis boom IS here, be would ink, was the government ? " There it is,"
tied the learned geatleman,. pointing to the opposition
" there it la. Hon. gentlemen need not be at a loss to
lea he the government. There It is. Every tion, every
peeetical measure, is originated on that side, then adopted by
eight lion gentlemen oo this side of the house. There is theini.
timing side of the house—the Government, in fact, df the country. 4
That is the side for proposing—this the aide for adopting
The learned gentleman proceeded to contend, that though the pro.
position tegarding maths and pluralities might be la itself not
objectionable, it ought to have bees introduced in batter can.
puny than hi an address calling upon the crown to violate the law,
and to do that ishlik'was &Manly intended 'for the pulling down
and spoliation of the thereb. (" No, no," from Mr. II: A.
Ifayitar.) That 'chew came from a lawyer, and an English
lewyer, sop; and he believed it was rekereted by an able Irish Wept
4Mr. O'Connell) on the bench below' Mm. [Mr. ('Connell-0 Nov
ma") He found he was' 'rail; I:1.11mi respOtt, bat-there 'trim a
*beer flom ah merlin* English lawyer, who eat haled fiat learned
modems*, end who Wei SIM of his (Sir C. Weehopere) old friends.
He would repeat that the right hon. baroost's aided emotion called
!gun the Crown to do that which was illegal, andlahlearnot friend,
W -disposed to question that peados, should mower it those bet.
ter argument than a saints* cheer. • He obseildwasefortheamen&
11101 t of the hon. member fee Weed. its...--, -- • • •
Mr, PEEL said ht
ftisdce of 'brimmed
(Mr. Ptrii") argument'
meant to•sey that the cm
proposed Win mound
the appointment of the a
Ile 4,4 **who :Dad
le

from speaking & second time on the same subject, and he should,
therefore, it down.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said, he had certainly expressed his in.
dignation at the assertion of his learned friend, that the supporter.
of the motion of the ►ight honourable baronet sought for the spolia-
tion of the church by saying " No, no.^ It was because he (Mr.
Taylor) was the sincere friend of the church in England anti Ire-
land, that he would support every motion for every necessary re-
formation in both.

Mr. BROUGHAM having been met on rising by the cry of
" Question" from some member, said the hoc. member would have
the question hi proper time. (A laugh.) He rose to state the
reasons which guided him In giving his vote on this occasion. He
should, however, fuse say that he had never Ward any more
complete, though of course not intentional misrepresentation,
than that which had been made by his learned Mend (Sir
Charles Wethetell) of what had fallen from the boa. secretary
opposite, and as his learned friend had prevented the right hon.
gentleman from giving an explanation of his argument, he (Mr.
Boo:Them) would do it for him. The right hon. gentleman never
meant to argue that this commission was the same as that which
had been appointed In this country. His hon. and learned friend,
however, said that the inquiry which it was Dow proposed to make
into the state of the church establishment in Ireland Was very dif-
ferent from that which was now going to be made by a commission
into the state of the church establishment In Engles& The inquiry
which was now proposed was directed, according to his honourable
and learned Mend, against the property of the church of Ire-
land ; whereas the English commission was limited, he said, to In-
quiry into the state of the ecclesiastical judicatures in this
country. Now, in point of importance there was little differ-
ence between the two inquiries, for, valuable as the rights of
property were, they were not a wit more valuable than those
Jprivileges which were connected with the administration of
ustice. He would appeal to those who were best acquainted
with ecclesiastical history, and would ask them whether there
Was any species of power which priests in all ages had coveted
mare than the power of forming and ing over ix:asst.:a-
deal tribunals ? Who was it appointed the in those tribunals?
—Where was the patronage vested which of such appoint.
ments ? Be wouM go no further than enebassoce, he would confine
.himself tO Ow simple statement—that ailejudge in the highest
ecclesiastical court In this kingdom was qd by a bishop, and
imatble by an archbishop. The present motion he contended did
list demure to be called a motion of spoliation; and be would
shortly' state why. First, however, he must deny the accuracy of
the proportion which his hon. and learned Mend bad stated to exist
between the objectionable and the unobjectionable parts of it. Nine.
tenths of it, said his hon. and learned friend, are objectionable; be.
cause they involve matters which are illegal, which are unconstitu-
tional, which violate the coronation oath, and which must lead to the
invasion and spoliation of the established church of Ireland c I.loth
of it is unobjectionable, and that Is the part adopted by Ministers.
Now if his hon. and learned friend had reversed the proportion—if
he had said that nine.tetuhs of it were unobjectionable, and that
one.tenth was objectionable, he would have cane nearer to the pro.
portion which really did exist between the unobjectionable and the
objectionable parts of the motion ; for, at the end of a long series
of propositions, which his right hon. friend had proposed, and which
were all; In his mind. unobjectionable, there came one little clause
which, as it called upon the Crown to exercise, In one respect at
least, a power not strictly legal, had besh objected to by ni Mimesis,
and had been abandoned as indefensible by his right hon. friend who
brought h' forward. All the first part of the motion was for be.
quiry : it recommended no change : it only called upon the use.
mission to examine, consider. and report. The bat pert et It
proceeded inadvertently to call upon the crown to isearan seise
suspending the payment of certain emoluments which arose during
the vacancies of sees in Ireland. until the dilapidated cathedrals of
that country were repaired. Now this was beyond al doubt ah.
jectionable ; for the aeon had no power either ell boss le
execute such an order. But could any man wilkeeklanik Ma
free from the inflammation under Width his hen. and burned 0=
mind laboured' tmder all subjects connected with the church,
even this objectionable clause either as a spoliation or an invasion
of the property of the church of Ireland ? It was calculated le
produce Use hiprovemement, not the dowfall of that church. Why;
this very measure had been adopted some years ago In the ems of
Lichfield Cathedral, under the authority of an art of paellas
ment. He did not believe that his honourable and Wield Mend
had ever charged his then colleagues, but his connect
nista, with being spollaten of the church of England, banmesalitaa
had consented to such an act. He did not believe that Its
on that account charged them with having taken a lemon from*
(Mr. B.'s) side of the house--a circumstance which appeared se
form the gramma:. of his hon. and learned Mead's proems
against ministers, and which had been used as a constant subititell. 4
imputation against ',hem ever since the passing of the:Catholic gooey
tion. His boo. and learned friend. or at least the party with whisk)*
acted, were always taunting the ministry with having taken hesene
from the opposition, on currency, free trade, and mamas other
political questloos. if their propositions were' metal and hp.
nefidal, it was creditable to the Ministers to have , dm*,
bat how did it happen that neither his hon. and wos
any of his party, had objected to the adoption of those .
until after the passing of the Catholic Mef Bill ? lii e
to say hit hishon. and learned, friend hit Aver *et As
bation merely because they emanated hoes'oweilasided. Per:
knew his lion. end lamed fliendi inapentftt tilli WI •
too well to suppose that he would either' diegaise :ctelinemee
sentiments to phone any minister—(loud cheers)r—for, on new
thin one 'occasion his hon. and learned Mend had sacrificed
his office rather than swerve from the rigid path of duly which his
conscience pointed out to him as correct. (Gait cheering.) fie
return, however, to the question. it had been said that the meths
of his right honourable friend was superfluous, as the privy comma
had already power to issue the commission which he pe
To that assertion he would merely reply, that, in his
the privy council bed no such power. lie admitted the
privy council, by a statute of George the First, had power to hem
and dis-olve unions in particular cases ; but he bad yet to learn
that the Irish privy council, any more than the English privy coon-
al, had power to send a roving commission all over Ireland to as
the object which his right hors. friend had so much at
heart. But suppose that the privy council bad such power, what
then ? To tail upon them to exercise it was, in his hen:Leable
and learned friend's opinion, a censure upon them for not
escrciiing it. Now the house pursued this course daily to-
wards the crown; and If towards the crown, why not to.
wards the privy council ? The crown received every day
addresses from that • house calling upon It to Issue commis-
dons of inquiry; but had not the Crown power to hese them with.
out being solicited to do so by that house ? Beyond all question it
had. Nobody, however, conceived that the house insulted the So-
vereign by requesting him to call into activity a power which he
had suffered to lie dormant 1 and therefore it was an absurdity to
represent that h Would insult the Privy Couseil by passing the
pprreesaeent motion. He denied that it was conceived in any spirit of
hostility to the established church of Ireland. It called for inquiry,:
nod be inquiry alone—it called too for that species of inquiry:
which would never lead to any spoliation of the church, or to any.
beanies of its rlghts. The born member for the University of Ox..
feed told him—aid the doctrine was to him equally novel and ex..
at:ordinary—that there was something so sacred in church property;
'that it was neither competent not. tight foe Pediment to interfere!
with the distribution of it among its members. This was denying:
the supremacy of parliament with a vengeance—this was placing,
'the church tar above the law—this was saying that it was not
only meted but
.sacrosanct—this was cashing it not only to a had.
with the Virg, but to a height infinitely above him. (Hear •
bear,leer.) He had frequent) y heard of the milieu between *web
and keighe had frequently beard that sada that union assay,
abuses were sheltered and many false principhe were defended: still
'be but never beard these Who wan emeldind most fimatiad sup-
porter, of that mystid union rains their claims one lota higher thin!
to place the church on the same level with the crown. To place it:
On the time level wes.nos the language of the cohititudas orof the
law; ler us hag as the Ring was recognised as the head- of
the church, it mold not be consistent with the boguaget either of
the constitute*. or of the law, low) that the dun* wait •
riot to the Mk*. Theism member for Oxford, however, eoDo d.
that,•withent .troilog the eperadmiet `the laws, it wee not ann.,
petent lee ehboatelt 10411111141111 Withohe distribution et the .
of the choir* mama the neembessof that church. He would, rem the
issue ipso the meek width he 'shored get to this qualtien—Mad.
not the homehnerfered wisbleahady.? Yes; it but towheaded*,
iit tar emstodso; it hod . Inesehmi with it when it peeled Jared
flaitewbre. bm, when It fussed the stipendiary errata' het,
end *sr wham lb Seed eid-Ombelis times: it peassiseho ode.
basted statute et Richard 11. •Did the hem. assert
that • 'take ? 'I? he aid not. ' he (Me. Draorie) yew=
bite; that it required that a pp/vision should be* milk ostmeiy to
pay the vicar and to repair the church, but oho to support the pour
, of every parish in Rngland. Now Ire wee s'hen. Mom-
bee fee Manama wow se befog forward a pMill* if
deto matoroons.
cry tumefies to d poor, and another
ohords-jse war afraid- that. though
a nothing , bat a -reentrodon of.. the,
h an overwhelming ere y mats being
` yet the act•of •Pmfiar which.
I goad old dime el aethelisims and
ftsash qoliatiots. He was surpriad
han* the exploded—deorrlie,
Milebresoes of the Our* oessidish.,
pi la isundition, strived e "the boa.
Ms* days. Ns intikeensal •
f .the serabbdurseat mins 1111161
not to reales, the. pogrom of hay
'* lb.' bee, Um -disrobe mem Valium

the community. Let the light beam in upon the estailllabc!enti
If the establishment be calumbirted, let the light setruli it,
and then the calumny will be refuted hut shut ii out, aed
you will play the game of the calumniator, and will prose
'punitive., not the friends, but the e' etudes of his best interests.
On this principle he should vote for the motion of his right hon.
friend: and it his hon. friend the member for Aberdeen should,
according to his promise, move for farther inquiry, in order to
obtain information to reduce certain estimates, or to correct certain
abuses of the church, which he (Mr. B.) did not believe to exist, his
hon. friend would find him ready to give his vote in favour of any
motion to obtain that information, though he (Mr. B.) much sloubtet.
whether his hon. friend could reckon on that of the learned civilian.

ou which he (Mr. Hume) rested with so much pleasure. Fond.
however, as he was of inquiry, he should be the last man to support
his hon. friend's proposition for the retrenchment of 18 bishopp• at
one sweep, and for pulling down the walls of all Irish catlittirsk
which could not be tamed into some use far parish churches.
The Gallery was about to be cleared for a division, when sir J.
NEWPORT said, as his Majesty's Government had agree,' t.
MOWS for all the matetial parts of the motion. he would not pr sg
his resolution to a division, and he would accordingly w i hdraw it.
Sir R. INGLIS also withdrew his amendment of moving tt e
previous question ; and
• Lord L. GOWER then moved, on the part of the Irish govt r• -
mem, for an address on all the points named !•y the right bon. bars
with the exception of the last part, which Sir J. Newport had,
the debate, connecd to expunge.

PORTUG
Lord PALMERSTON said be was anxious to bring on the
motion relative to Portugal on which he had given notice, but he
feared, front the late hour of the night. ant: another notice startling
which had precedence, that he world not be able to do so that
evening. He was desirous front its great importance, to submit it
et the earliest possible period, and if the rig):' bor. 4entleman (Mr.
W. Horton). who had a motion for 'Tuesday evening, which,
though interesting, was not equally urgent, w 0,11.1 consent to with-
draw his proposition, he would be happy to take the sense of the
house on that evening.
Mr. WILMOT HORTON was, from the confusion in the
house, inaudible in the gallery. but we were led to understand that
be agreed to allow the noble lord's motion precedence.
LAW COURTS IX INDIA.
Mr. STEWART, of Beverley, in rising to move for certain pap( 14
relative to the law courts of India, observed, that the papers and cur.
Negoadenee he was about to move for, would clearly show to the
boast that the law officers in India were in the right, and that though
It had been decided that the government of Bombay had a right to
Interfere with their jurisdiction, he would show that it was wrong.
The hon. member said, that he begged to differ with the noble
lord at the head of the hoard of controul (Lord Elletiborough.)
when he says that the law giving the chief justice of a presidency
the supreme power was a bad law ; time were persons in this own.
try, pethapa, better able to judge of that matter than the Noble
I ook and they were of a different opinion also. The Noble Lord
also writes that a new Chief Justice was about to be aippointed, one
who was likely to serve the ends of Government ; he (Mr. Stewart)
thought it was because that person was likely to become subser-
vient and to succumb to Government—(hear.) For that reason ho
was thought a fit person ; and then look to what the Noble Lord
in this private letter says about tl.e governor conferring the or-
der of knighthood on the new judge ; because, says he, it will
snake the governor appear to be above the court ; such a principle
was contrary to the constitution of courts in this country ; and, in.
deed, in any country when justice is expected to be impartially ad.
ministered.—(lieu.) He sincerely) hoped that the house would
never consent to such a doctrine. The noble lord, also, in speaking
of the East India Charter, the word "renew^ occurred. This had
beds attempted to be explained as meaning review :" now he
(Mr. Stewart) had sun various copies of that letset in the East
India papas, and N renew" was invariably the phrase that was
used ; in abort, Use interference of the Court of Bombay with
the law °Seers was an Interference not to be tolerated, or if tolerated,
it was not known how soon the principle might be tolerated here.
The bon. member then moved for a copy of all the correspondence
that took place relative to the Intertwines of the Bombay gov.th-
, meat with the courts of law in 1828 and 1829, and at aey twine-
qurctlieriod.
ASHLEY rose and addressed the house at considerable
length, but the noble lord spoke in so low a tone as to be almost in.
in the gamy; the noble lord defended the government of
Bombay.
Mr. ROBERT GRANT said he believed front his heart, that
all the parties concerned in these unfortunate transactions were
lbomusaide men who intended to do their duty faithfully, but were
various diSculties. (Hear.) The letter written by the
liblebed at Littlest' edithe board of contrail could not be fully
unlow.the papers now moved for were produced. His
t MONO government wished It to be thought that they desired the
,Indlopoistionso of tbeesurts be India ; but there was such a thing as
{Haar.) • Wbse was the independence of . the judges in
•
when onward with the•judges of this country P The latter
wiloo wider too centroul, whilst the former meld only act in *W-
alla to the orders of the Governor. (Hear.) tie thought the
tn dleiliamight not to be under the subjection of the Privy
flithilio Gnat was .a man. of the moat sensible mind.
▪ bee his anxiety to perform his duties in an honourable man.
nerilto had fallen a victim to an injudicious measure (Hear.)
• Celled GRAHAM said he thought the conduct of Sir John
Makiii fully justified by she cireunistanees of the ease. If the
Commuted illegally, the Governor nos bound by his duty to resist
any peones so issued. He thought the ehorge against Sir John
==had been most unjustifiably brought forward, and his in.
with the judges much misrepresented.
..411bis HUME said the question was one of great importance ; he
Ibinniten Muted. as that late bout .(one o'clock), no objection would
be made to an adjournatent of the debate.
Mr. PEEL said it would be extremely inconvenient to the public
Nevin if the debate wu adjourned. l'he house sat later last night,
ail mt important euhdectwas Seed for tomorrow (this night).
Mr. HUME did not we what day was appointed, but be must
repeat that so important a subject bad not a right to be discussed at
that late hour.
A deaulteeLconvereation ensued, in which Dr. Pnitetmoar,
Mr. C. W. WTS.IIR, :and Mr PRIM took a part when it was at
length agreed to postpone the motion until this (Friday) evening.
Sir H. lIARDI NOE said he thought the time this motion had
taken would prevent the hon. member for Aberdeen objecting to the
upon of the commluee-of sag* being then bought up.
Mr. MUME woad haus ati.drjwaial.k veld not occupy more
than ten minutes...(Ailaugb.) . .•

LIC.ENSING SYSTEM

The CHANCELWR of the EXCIV:QUER in rising to
more faro select comadttee en the laws and regulations relating to
she mice beer,.apoiegised to the house foe the late hour at which
he brought fereward his motion. Ile ,would not then have done it
had he seen another early opportunity likely to present itself.—
The eight hon. gentleman was of opinion that the licensing system
sot fully understood. • Although the sale of beer had been
os seemal madams . brought before the house, honour.
• able mambas had not paid that attention to the subject
. which its importance demanded., particularly that part which re.
laud to the licensing of hams.- (hear, hear.) The prevent system
gave to a few laspao•bermat a monopoly, which not only operated to
laaaase the price.of .bese, beet 'tended greatly so deteriorate its
eptality.—(hear. hear.) Many memo had been assigned fa* con.
dotting 'the prevent sysions--aione, however, were to hint satisfac-
tory. With respect to the taa on beer, he thought the public re.
venue might be more beraefitted if some other um was adopted.—
(hear, bas.) Is taking the subject of licensing into consider.
mime, be .did sec fed infinenced by the allegations that hal been
mat upon a respeemble 'body of glen, . who were embodied to
grant lianas. • If there vas any thing to ownplain of, it was not
"them that wen to blame, biu the law that placed them ie euch.a %i-
-solation. (Hear.) lie was firmly of opinion, and he'thought his
hats. friend opposite (W. liestun) would *decide with him. that
by.nmending the ale of titer, the maonfacturer would not, he
injured, and that it would make a great cumfat upon the con-
sumer. tMrely, then, parliament ought to afford the greatest
possible Utility to mead he cometwiption: (Hear.) He knew
osetabiseigulations is booms of public enteeesiettient were India.
• peasable. Aswan essential that they should be c inducted with the
greatest order and,desorum • therefore it was .absolutely necessary
that they should be under the eontroul of the magistracy. At the
• -fame time be was !meth caress that in his opihion Ahem ought
. to be a tree trade in beer to its fullest extent,-(hear, hear, hgar),...-
a .proper. regard being paid to certain legitimism* segromoy
to mum public peace. He . would bat then enter into
a detail, or state all the advantages likely to arise team
a fres trade. Whets parliament some tune.aisce thought fit_ el apen
the .trails in • part, it .aces die WIMP* dieisiW,
but be weer •concurred in that opinion, and
,he was convinced, if
'the monopoly had been done away with. and houses opened in all
parte of the town, it would bare been attended with the emu Mite.
ticial effects. It was not necessary tor him, an the presmi aeries,
to mate were. be should be limier able to do *4)
lead been appointed, and they made their Alpert. lie
would,
. foie, only say, that is his opbtloo•niaking the trade freeere alkyd
mach contort to the lower eiders, and pethemaa great kipteresnmet
• is eitteltabits °fah, p agile.HatreaN. eihrithlSlC by sr*. fan •
isiedrainto the larmsemelcdhs din,sak of
tiILANEY paid, this eras a rtima•le*.nr • my firtne. _
mace. A Won was at lam abase te be given :it bed %SS
. wanted. • Beer war a neessimp sedelesto
.idok the eode mut trash* a 154.71 11"1141 "46•0thejirlijharaltell
• aft isereem 1 innandiroviihe the eentegsillgUslehish in
A mitistuotbr apricultesiots. He wield trot detain the basal erttli any
Meennea . bet se. keniree'reefterbabie. ?Mt MUM
hasty; it appeaseektbst• Wait**, .peusabegigne.
lodes of the thuntre hod immilf•drubilide valgilogn.
' sawed of wholesome beverage Masked nearly tN M he(bear

ment of the hon. member for Weed, if pseneed to a division. • Allrth of ibe intim* of every be
. Mr, PEEL odd heroic to expert hie tOnenirinfo hi• die 41,14 Meth *l6 the "'tan eel* elm
Janice of thelearned gentleaten't metalled %heti/bad ile b MI a 1001444•0 -*sold be n
(Mr. Pact's) argument wartioehls osuestise— ladfivaryiltkihkeo, da Iww, it would be met with a
meant to sal that the colamildel appetated to le - apitUil Orli:den of the chord t • and y
proposed to be teppebbited to !reiand,were the vailei or teaseeetebat isuilhat. Pedalos, PAM hi the I
the appointment of the one was the mon fie a - " *either N'F"tithwl will considered as enY '
lie bid Metelyinatineed the akialliestenetif`the Milli '
strog ; 46F‘eitli lbw Whil-41149441e hid"
land,ii reply Weise ariettlii• etilitlies. ntioettortef Doe* • • that la %%17' 1111° the wittaw'
reepaiitteleauld riot dam to peopoleethe aspehttiodid at ;wog tom wed is weaken is t
ferttedibed. • Nie theme
1:(94411PICIlif Rltiateh ift.‘ht6.1140,11'1%,1:1118 allowlbW.l,-kMI joss sus sesss she ma* a
.sh
top tide eudatry he did not *woo to say yea stoiUk. ,
in gehiiiitir 14 liiiik.Pwwww44=4 ,CW.III *time eleitilf dilled•upon to prontatO, as
'1164 )treipa tow4iiis eritis4faithali • delruseb7.:i4.l4 Mt tivembobalrer dile . WIN/ •tbie
't "
of 014 6114,7 froilisStedkVitheedll.).*:"W khans& dee *dais. it flood& us lowa, saill
man could eerta.nly citrons his privilege to messiah.' (31e,191;1: fed 11i1414111; Ilk bighit satin i