Star.
London, England, 1813-05-05 00:00:00

COUNTY RECORDS.

Mr. HOME SUMNER moved, That the House
do go into a Committee on the County Records Bill.
Mr. WESTERN saw no sufficient reason to enter-
tain that Bill, which would create a considerable ad-
dition to the County Rates, without producing any
adequate good in return. Unless, therefore, the
Hon. Member was prepared with more substantial
reasons than any he had hitherto adduced in support
of the measure, he for one should oppose the Speaker
leaving the Chair.
Mr. HOME SUMNER observed, in reply, that
the County of Middlesex had already felt the advan- ,
tage of having a place for the purpose of keeping
safely the Records of the County, so important to
the interests, and in some cases to the honour of in-
dividuals. In the County which he had the honour
to represent, the want of such a safe deposit was
deeply and generally felt, and he had never heard
any difference of opinion on the subject. When the
increase of business in that opulent Court was con-
sidered, and the consequent number of notices, &c.
which required that the records should be consulted,
it would be obvious how desirable it was to have a
person on the spot to give necessary information.
The House then went into a Committee on the Bill,
and after some conversation several of the clauses
were agreed to.
A clause for building a house for the Clerk of the
Peace, who should always be in attendance, and the
expence of which Mr. SUMNER had stated at about
£5OOO, occasioned a division in the Committee, and
was ultimately carried by a majority of sixty-eight
against fifty-six.
The Committee having gone through some more
of the Clauses,

Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY rose to propose two
additional ones. The first, to make it incumbent on
the Clerks of the Peace to send every year to the Of-
fice of the Home Department the return of persons
indicted at the Quarter Sessions, with the result of
their trial. As matters stood at present, he had been
informed at the Secretary of State's Office, that it
was impossible to procure such returns, so desirable
to form a correct view of the legislation. The se-
cond clause he intended to propose went to suppress
the fees which persons indicted were obliged to pay
to the Clerk of the Peace before they could be allowed
to plead Not Guilty. These fees amounted to eight
or nine pounds ; and it had often happened to him,
(and he was sure to many of the Learned Gentle-
men near him,) that when a poor man had been in-
dicted for a trifling misdemeanor, he had advised him
to plead guilty, because he could not afford to pay the
expense of proving his innocence before his country.
(Hear, hear.) This intolerable abuse had been suf-
fered too long, yet it had been often and very an-
ciently ccmplained of. His intention was not, how-
ever, to hurt the interests of the present Clerks of the
Peace, and the clause he should propose would only
go to declare, that no Clerk of the Peace chosen in
future should be entitled to such fees.

The first cl luse being read from the Chair,
Mr. HOME SUMNER observed, that the Com-
mittee had been completely taken by surprise, and
that the clauses proposed were besides totally irrele-
vant to the subject of the Bill. The returns de-
manded by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman would
occasion a great additional trouble to the Clerks of
the Peace, without any adequate advantage resulting
from it ; and when the smallness of their salary was
considered, no useless trouble should be given to them.
Mr. HILEY ADDINGTON deemed the clauses
irrelevant, and thought that it would be much better
to make them the subject of a separate and special
Lid ; though he must confess, that he did not consider
them calculated to remove all the evils of which the
Learned Gentleman (Sir Samuel Romilly) had com-
plained.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY, in reply, observed,
that objects much more different from the title of the
Bill than those which he had introduced, had been
suffered to creep into Acts, and to pass that House,
as must be known to those who had perused many 011
them—(Hear.) He, therefore, deemed objections as
to their irrelevancy but very unsatisfactory and futile
opposition to his clauses. It had been said that they
would not remove all the evils of which he had com-
plained, but was that any reason for permitting abuses
to remain as they were?—(Hear.) With respect to
the latter.clause, let the Committee reflect in what
state was the law when a man cften found it cheaper
to admit himself guilty, whether innocent or not of
the crime laid to his charge, than to defend himself !
In this country it certainly ought not to be permitted
to be said that a poor, and possibly an innocent man,
might expose himself to the horrors of a prison, if he
wished to vindicate his innocence, in paying 49 to
the Clerk of the Peace for liberty to say—Not Guilty.
Such things ought not to remain—(Hear, hear.)
After some further conversation, in which Mr.
Bathurst, Sir Samuel Romilly, Colonel Barry, Sir
Frederick Flood, Mr. Herbert of Kerry, and Mr.
Hiley Addington took part, the Committee divided
on the first clause—Noes, 45—Ayes, 40—Majority
against it, 5.
Another division took place on the second clause—
Noes, 56 —A y es, 42—Majority against it, 14.
The Bill went through the Committee, and the
Report was ordered to be received to morrow.

CALL OF TUE HOUSE.
Mr. RYDER stated, that it was his intention to
enforce the Call of the House on Tuesday next, as
he understood an Hon. Baronet (Sir J. C. Hippis-
ley), whom he did not then see in his place, had
given notice of a motion for that day, which was of
very great importance, as connected with the Ca-
tholic Question.

FOREIGN RELATIONS.
Mr. LUSHINGTON brought up the Resolutions
of the Committee of Ways and Means of the pre-
ceding evening.
On the motion for the second reading of the Reso-
lutions,

Mr. PONSONBY addressed the Chair. He ob-
served that he did not rise for the purpose of opposing
the reading of those Resolutions a second time, nor
to throw the least interruption in the way of those
pleasures whicli
Majesty's Mipisters might bane

thought proper to introduce to the House for the par.
pose of raising the necessary supplies. He was not,
at that moment, influenced by any disposition of such
a nature; because he felt, in the present situation of
the country, that it was desirable, more perhaps thar,
in any year of war which had passed, for this king.
dom to make great and extensive exertions. His pie,
pose in rising was to offer a few observations, wre.:
he would be sorry to make in the absence of the
Noble Lord (Castlereagh), and which, no doubt, he
would be anxious to hear. Those observations we
founded on papers laid before the House, and on
events, which public rumour had stated to have :aker
place. He understood that, of the vote of credit (.1.
£3,000,000 granted by Parliament in the last Se:clee.
between 3 and £400,000 had already been advara
to Sweden. He had heard, also, but he meant -,
to state it as a matter of fact, and, he hoped, h
were incorrect, the Noble Lord would attribute
error to a want of that information, which few per.
sons, except his Majesty's Ministers, could possess ;
but he had seen it stated, that the Danish Ministe7
had withdrawn himself precipitately from this
country—and it was reported, that the cause of the
reconciliation between this Country and Denmare
not having advanced in a manner so favottra!)le a.
could be wi,hed, arose from a promise having bee:.
made by this Government to Sweden, of a ludas
of the dominions of Denmark ;—a measure cons•
dered by the latter Power as extremely adverse w het
interests. If the state of affairs, between this cou'.
try and Sweden and Denmark, were such as to
render it imprudent fur his Maje,t)', Ministers to
make any declar ttion on this subjec„ and that the
Noble Lord stated this to be the case, he would
rest perfectly satisfied t, ith such an intimation,—
But he thought it w.e; due to the Noble Lord to
observe thus much, that his MAjesty'sNlinisters should
be extremely cautious of entering into any en:;age-
ments of this desci iption ;.—for these engatlements,
if they really were such as they were said to be,
might not only be injurious to the present iir.erta,a
of this country, but still more injurious to the
general interests of Europe, if an opportunity occuri el
from a favourable state of things to make arrange.
ments for peace. The grant made to Sweden ex-
ceeded £300,000, and yet they saw no exertion made
by that country, witless the sending a portion of
troops to her own dominions in Pomerania could be
called an exertion. It was said, indeed, that a gua-
rantee had been entered into by Russia and England
to Sweden, that, in the event of Sweden taking a
more active part in the war against France, she
would be allowed to get possession of Norway. He
did not mean to say, that there was any thing unfair
in this proceeding, as we were at war with Den-
mark—he did not think it would be wrong even to
furnish the means of attack, if it were conformable
with the general views and interests of this country;
but how tar such a plan might be pursued, consis-
tently with those views and interests, ought to be
well and deeply considered—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
If the Noble Lord thought it would be unsafe or im-
prudent, under existing circumstances, to make any
declaration on the subject, he would, as he had said
before, rest satisfied, at the present period, with such
an assurance; tor, though the present Administra-
tion was not constructed in the way most agreeable
to him—though it was not so formed as to enjoy his
perfect confidence—still he would not withhold from
it that degree of confidence which ought to be give..
to any set of men exercising the important functions
of his Majesty's Government.—.(Hear, hear.)—At
the same time, he begged leave to claim for himself
the right (though he would not push the subject far-
ther now), at any future time, to criticise, as he
might think proper, the statements that might be
laid before them on the subject, if they bore any of
those features which were attributed to the proceed-
ings he had referred to.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, from the observa-
tions of the Right Hon. Gentleman it appeared, that
he thought it his duty to call for explanation on cer-
tain matters respecting the foreign relations of this
country; but that, if he understood, from those hold-
ing responsible situations in the Government, that
any disclosure was likely to be attended with ill effects,
he would not press the matter at the present moment.
He (Lord Castlereagh) had no difficulty in saying,
that he was extremely anxious to give every informa-
tion consistently with his public duty—but he had as
little difficulty in stating, that at the present period,
he could not impart information with respect to Swe.
den, that would be at all satisfactory to the Right
Honourable Gentleman without violating that public
duty. He hoped the House would be satisfied 'with
what he now stated, that he could not make any
disclosure on the subject, without prejudicing the
public interest, in the way to which the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman had alluded. That the recon-
ciliation of this country with Denmark had been
impeded, was not occasioned by any arrangements
with respect to our allies, but arose from the claims
of that power, on points intimately connected with
the greatness and prosperity of the empire—claims
which, he was sure, the Right Hon. Gentleman would
himself concur in rejecting. He hoped, before long,
a full explanation might be given without injury to
the public service. At the present time, however,
he put in that claim, as a Member of his Majesty's
Government, which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
expressed his readiness to admit.
Mr. PONSONBY said, he did expect from the
Noble Lord's candour, and, resting on that, he hoped
to find his expectations fully answered, that no time
would he suffered to elapse, more than was absolutely,
necessary, before the Noble Lord made known those
circumstances to Parliament. It was essential to the
honour and interests of the country, that matters of
this description should be made known as soon as
possible.
The Resolutions were then agreed to, and BiliL
ordered to be brought in, in conformity therewith.
Mr. BANKES moved for an Account of the net produce of
Taxes imposed in Ireland, in the yqrs 1809, 1810, 1811, and
1818; together with an Account of the estimated produce of ate
same, if such Account could be produced from any Office.
Mr. W. FITZGERALD had no objection to the motion,
he doubted whether any Office existed in which the estimated
amount of the taxes could be found. •
The motion was then agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER presented, ac-
cording to Act of Parliament, an Account of the charge of
Civil List, in the Ist, sth, and Bth classes.—Ordered to be printed.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then gave notice, that be would,
on this day fortnight, move that those papers be referred to
Committee.

The Irish Butter Bill vas they read the third time and ra:.c4
Adjourned..