Star.
London, England, 1830-02-20 00:00:00

•
-------- meta (a laugh). The House wo
,not forget that the ottinudis
we
petitioner to come before parliament. He prayed that inquiry might 'for the ythe 1829 were lessAlr . -.200,11004 (bars those Ol' The
M made into his case, and that he might be sent out of the yeas preceding, and that the' -ei of that year wen Ire. by
coantry. about 8110,0M1. than those otiat before,making, in twolditm
Mr. PEEL believed that the hon. gent. had correctly stated the le total ' diminution of 700,0001. He would beg leave to make
e.rt.: ef the case, us far as the conviction of this person was con, 'one more observation, that in fotming an opinion of the
...Inert : his name was Wild, and in the year 1894 he was capitally value and amount of the reductions, be hoped the house would not
I • mot ted, under Lord Ellenboyough's act, of an attempt, with a view those reductions with reference to the whole amount of the O-
r' ..ro.pointed instrument, upon the life of his uncle, in whose em. nual eraimatee. The total •arnount of the last estiinate was
V:l' . he then was. That he might not prejedice the prisoner, he 17,600,0004 but if the house imagined that that was the sum upon
::t.• rained from entering into a detail of the evidence. The case which the reduction was effected, they would form an erroneous cal-
as to the stabbing was fully proved. After the conviction, the judge culation, and be led to an exaggerated idea of what the government
e.ii u ,irubt whether or no the prisoner was sanest the time he tom- was able to perform. Of that 17,600,000/. it was in the knowledge
rained the offence. The judge who tried the prisoner—judge Hay- of every man that heard him that the greater part of that expendi.
lee was a man whoie complete knowledge of the law, and general ture was for services long gone by, and the remuneration of which
eJrnanity in the administration of justice, must be familiar to could not be diminished consistently with the honour and faith
every one. Entertaining the doubts already mentioned, he deter- of the country, and without a breach of the honour and a de.
mined not to carry the extreme sentence of the law into ee'ect, but parture from the justice which at all times had distinguished
eerennited it to imprisonment for life and hard labour. The hon. the character of the House of Commons—(A laugh.) With
gentleman seemed to think that it was an illegal sentence. After these preliminary observations he would proceed to a statement
all the consideration that he (Mr. P.) could give to the subject, he of the several estimates in detail, and to the several redue.
could not conceive a question as to its legality. He had received dons which it had been found practicable for his Majesty's
efght or ten letters from Judg e Bayley with respect to the case of government to make. He could assure the house that it had been the
:his prisoner, in whom the learned judge! took particular interest, anxious desire of government to make everypoasible diminution in the
mid in none of them did he express a doubt as to the legality if the expenditure, compatible with the maintenance of those establish-
sentence. Had he entertained any such doubt, it was probable meats which this country was bound to maintain. He had first to
that he would have conferred with the other judges upon the sub- state a reduction of above 211000/. on an estimate which had
ject. lle*(slr. P.) had submitted the ease to the consideration of amounted in the last year t 06,300,000/. and which was now reduced
the I-iw Officers of the Crown—they had the whole case before to only 6,100,000!. He stated the sums in round numbers. The army
them. and never hinted a doubt as to the legality of the commute- extraordinarits were next to be considered. It had been found pos.
don. The general principle laid down by Blackstone was, that Able by watchful superintendence to effect a saving of 150,0001.
a mtrilon might be conditional—that was—the King might annex With respect to the militia, or the third military vote, it had been
to Ms pardon what terms he pleased, and this by common law.— found by the correct investigation of the tight honourable gen.
His chief reason for believing the sentence legal was, that when tleman who filled the of of Secretary at war, that a reduction
:sir Charles Wetherell, and the present Lord Chancellor, were At. of above sixty-five thousand pounds might be effected without
torney and Solicitor Generals, they folly considered the case, and any injury whatever to the public service. To complete the
eettswily never had a doubt as to the legality of the commutation. army votes, he had now only to allude to the reduction of
They stated that, after the Judge had commuted a sentence, the the Commissariat. The estimates of this service for the present /r.
Secretary of State could not make a fresh commutation of the he was happy to say, showed a reduction of nearly 25,00 et.
commuted sentence to transportation for life. He had thought fit, total reduction upon the army grants would therefore be found to
at the instance of Mr. Justice Bayley, to remit the hard labour. amount to 453,1401. This, he trusted, would evince to the house
He knew of nothing more distressing than the situation of a man the desire of his majesty's government to effect every economical
convicted of a capital crime, but acquitted on the ground of hum arrangement, and to reduce the establishment of the country to as
pity. This was a case of that kind. Supposing this prisoner had low a standard as was consistent with her honour and security.—
been acquitted on the ground of insanity, still he would have been These reductions would leave the whole of the sums to be voted at
subjected to imprisonment for life. He regretted to say that there 7.316,0001. which was the total amount of the grant for the army.—
were in many of the prise= of this country many persons in that When this was compared to the vote of the preceding year, he trusted
condition, and reports were constantly made to him to this effect : that it would prove satisfactory to the house. Indeed the house
—ni Here is a man convicted of arson and murder, and acquitted on would and the estimate leas than any that had been voted since the
the ground of insanity; and we are of opinion that the man is sane, year 1794. Whether the period had been one of war or peace, the
and may be discharged." He could not conceive any thing more estimates of the present year were lower than at any former year.
painful than the consideration he had to give to these circum. Here Sir HENRY Hs/Ammo e interposed, end spoke to the right
stances. He had good reason for being cautious in the dis. honourable gentleman.
charge of persons in that situation. It had happened a few years The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER continued :—Hie
since, that a woman acquitted of a charge of arson had been released hon. friend said that the comparison was with 1804, and not with
by his (Mr. Peel's) predecessor, she appearing perfectly sane. Her 1794 ; and even if his hon. friend were right, it was extremely setts.
first act after her discharge from prison was to return to the place factory to find that the estimates were now lower than they had been
where the original offence had been committed, and in the most ex- for twentynrie years. The next vote was for the Ordnance. If there
traordinary and deliberate manner to set fire to the premises of was any one vote or grant of service more than another, which had
the individual who had been before the object of her resentment. engaged the attention of government with reference to the reduction
There was a case at Lancaster where a man had been acquitted, on of expenditure, it was this. On this, however, the amount of re.
the ground of insanity, of an attempt to murder, and where it was duction would 'be found to be less, and it was limited to 29,0001.
clearly proved that, after his acquittal, he had kept up a COMMTOINI• The next charge to which he would call the attention of the house
ence with the view of murdering the person whose life he bad already was the navy ; and upon this branch of the pubic service it would
attempted. lt constantly happened that persons living under prison be found that a very considerable reduction of expenditure had
discipline, with nothing to excite :them,
..were restored to reason r taken place. The savings on the estimates amounted to 273,0001.
and that when they were dismissed, and again mixed in the world, within a ;few pounds. With reference to the miscellaneous
their derangement returned—their vindictive feelings returred— estimates, perhaps it was more difficult to make reductions, for a
and they again sought out the parties against whom their original great amount ofdisbursements was connected with the progress of
vengeance was directed. . This petitioner's own account was— works to which the house had given is previous sanction, and con.
"a That he had been convicted of stabbing his uncle—that he sequently the works must be left unfinished, or the country must
was heartily sorry for the offence—and that he had been led undergo a great expence in completing them. Reductions had also
to the commission of it from intemperance which caused de- been made less practicable in this account; for former years had
rangement. That the petitioner had been wounded In his head, been relieved by old outstanding balances, which of course were not
and that a very little liquor had an injurious effect upon him." applicable to the present account. The reduction, however,
He (Mr. Peel) had inquired of the uncle if he would be safe amounted to 276,9001. making the whole estimates of the year
were his nephew released ? His answer was, that he would not be for the army, Navy, ordnance, and miscellaneous expends' to
safe were he released. He had intimated to the prisoner that, al. amount to 1,031,9e01: (Hear.) This, he trusted, would be
though his sentence could not be commuted, yet, if proper security considered by the house as a satisfactory indication on the part of
were afforded, he might embark for new South Wales. He trusted ministers, to go heartily and cordially into the great
the house would be of opinion that he had acted so far as was con- work of reduction to which they had considered themselves
sistent with justice. The original purpose wee, that he should em. pledged from the moment of entering office. But in estimating the
bark for New South Wales. expenses of the ensuing years, it had been found practical, by the
Sir C. WETHERELL confirmed the statement of Mr. Peelem reduction of interest upon exchequer bills, to make a saving of
The ease was laid before him when he was in office, The punishment 180,000/. in the annual expenditure. Thus, in the present year,
of death could be commuted for perpetual imprisonment, but aam there would-bet total saving of 1,300,0004 His object had been
cold commutation could not be made. to state facts to the house; and he would not trouble it with any
After a few words from Mr. PF.EL and Col. DAVIES, ' farther observations. If there are those who think with the hon.
Mr. STANLEY withdrew the petition. member for Aberdeen, that a reduction of 8,000,0001. or ten mil.
TREASURER OF THE NAVY. lion pounds was practicable, they will now find themselves much
Sir J. GRA HAM gave notice that on Monday next he would deceived ; if, on the other hand, there are those who agree with that
mere a resolution condemnatory, as we understood, of the way in hon. member, in believing that it was not the intention of his Wes-
wiech the treasurer of the navy was appointed. ty'e government to effect any reduction whatever, to such persona
Mr. O'CONNELL gave notice of a motion for Monday respect. the statement he had submitted to the house will prove an
ing the practice of quarantine. The hon. member then presented a agreeable surprise ; and he trusted, that to the house and
petition from the parish of St. Luke, Dublin, against the vestry act. to the country it would be satisfactory, because the reduction had
Laid on the table. been made without Impairing the efficiency of our establishments,
Upon the motion of Mr. ATTWOOD, accounts were ordered and because it had been made without display.—(Heat, hear, hear.)
of the quantity of half-sovereigns and other coins issued since the They had not attempted to make that specious reduction which
year 1824. would only lay a foundation for actual increase in some future s ear,
Mr. JEPHSON gave notice that on Tuesday next he would move when the pressure of some temporary distress might be experienced.
for documents relating to the late special commission for the county But they, by looking to the minor expenditure—by lopping off'
of Cork. those little excrescences which had sprung forth unobserved, they
Mr. WODEHOUSE presented a petition from the occupiers of had effected this reduction, which, he would venture to say, was
land in the Parish of Kissing, in Norfolk, against the tithe system. calculated to give relief to the people, and afford them an earnest of
Laid on the table. the intentions of his majesty's ministers to do their duty as far as
STATE OF THE COUNTRY. regarded the expenditure of the country.—(Hear, hear.)
3lf. E. DAVENPORT rose with difficulty, as well as edam Mr. HUME said that if any hon. member understood him as
tance (having suffered for some days, under considerable India- having expressed his disbelief that no one item of expenditure was
position,) to remove certain misrepresentations which had gone to be reduced by government, his words were altogether miscon.
abroad, concerning the motives which caused him to postpone his °deed. What he had stated was, that he did not entertain any
motion on the state of the country. It bad been erroneously said exportation of such relief as the country had a right to look fur,
that the:motion was adjourned eine die, that he waited in the and in that he was not disappointed.. The right hon. gentleman had
hope of gm/Liniment proposing some remedial measure, and that made a statement, which to him (Mr. Hume) appeared quite mo-
ire feared embarrassing ministers. None of these reasons were neous. He told the house that the present estimates were lower than
true ; he entertained no such hopes or fears—he had no con. any which had been presented since the year 1704.
fidence in any intentions of government to relieve the country; Mr. Secretary PEEL—No; 1804.
nor did he fear, by Investigating the causes of the general em. Mr. HUME proceeded—Well, no matter whether 1794 or 1804.
larrasment, to embarrass those who had produced it. No doubt —(a laugh). He found that so far from the right hon. gent. having
many friends of the motion wished it postponed, and that any cause to congratulate the house, the case sou quite otherwise.
was reason enough for, delay, had there not been caum more The reduction now made was not for one year, but for a series of
titan sufficient in the illness of the mover. On a motion of years, and the amount gradually came down to the lowest scale
such consequence, compared with which all others were but contemplated by the government. He (Mr. Hume) held in his
as dust in the balance, it was desirable the whole country hand roma documents which would show Wow very little cause there
Should have full and sufficient notice, and he had therefore was for congratulation. They were not the official estimates of the
fixed on Wednesday, March, 3, in ignorance that his honourable Government, for many of those were erroneous—for example,
friend the member for Knaresborough, had a motion on that day, where it was stated that the estimates of last year were less by
which would brat at least the whole done evening. He was there. 200,0001 than those of the year before, whereas it was an theme-
fore obliged to fix Friday the sth, on which day he should -certainly tionable fact that in the three great branches of the public service,
take the sense of the house upon the motion, and probably should the estimates of last year were more by 460,0001. than those of the
follow up the present notice, by moving a call of theihourn on that year preceding.
occasion. The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained. It
NAYS AND MEANS. 1. would be seen that the balance.theet contained an account of pay-
Upon the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER, meats made, and which had not been carried to the estimates. A
the house resolved into a Committee of War and Means, Sir A sum of 500,0001. had stood over in the balanee.sheet in the Freud-
GRANT in the chair. ; - Mg year.
After a sum of 2,500,0001. part of a sum in the lintehequer. was Ida HUME continued—Ministers took the estimate or the ha-
voted to his Majesty, to be applied to the service of the year 1830; lantemheet of the expenditure just as it suited theft purpose. Re.
and a sum not exceeding 4,000,0001 was 'lilted out of the etinsoli, ferries to the year 1852, he found the total expenditure of.the three
dated Fund, to make good sums already guinea. - branthes—namely, the entry, the Allyn, and . ordnance, to be
The house resumed, and the report of these %solutions of the 16,000,6001. last year it was 17,660,0001. being 1,060,000!. more
committee was ordered to be received on Monday text. thin in 1823. In the following year, 1823, it was 18,100,0001.
The SPEAKZE resumed the chair. showing an increase in the expenditure of last year of upwards of
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY. 1,000,0001. All that the right honourabk gentleman now did, was
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose, and said by a reduction of 1,000,0004 to bring the country back to the state
that in moving that the house do resolve itself into• a committee of it stood in the years 1822 and 1823—(hear, hear). But could he
the whole house to take into consideration the supplies for the (Mr. Hume) be told that this was real reduction when he were only
present year, he should take the opportunity of redeetthog placed in the situation in which we stood in either of those years ?
the pledge he had given a few nights ago, that ~he would avail He must totally protest against the conclusion that we were now at
himself of this °cession of stating the sum total Of those reductione the lowest pitch of expenditure of any period since 1804. The house
which it was the hitention of his Majesty's Government to maie would recollect that he bad on a former night submitted a proposition
upon the estimates. Tbs.:house Would thus have before them tire to the house fa effecting a reduction in lime army and the ordnance
whole of the documentmend explanations 'refute they came to any to the amount of 1,250,000/. He would titter eery briefly state the
consderation of the drawls. The et arse he now Intended to pur. grounds, bf that positioo. ' Latterly the erpendifureof the army
sue was In some respects different from other predicts when these had been transferred to the ordnance;
.it was not therefore, fair' to
subjects )u.4 been brought forward in former years. He was not take the present estimates as teethe military establishments alone, fin
;mare, however, dim this course woalshbe attended by any difficul. the army and the ordnance ought to be taken together.. Last year the
ties ; but be would solicit the indulgence of the house, if upon a estimates teethe army were 7,7008001; for the Ordnance 1,509,0001.
future presentatileu of' other mammas he should be foetal to Vary making altogether 9,269,0001. The hen. member then proceeded to
from the statemigur he should make upon the present occasion. say that the whole expenditure of the army and ordnance for the
could undertaln to say, did wbetever variation theme might be sent year, after deducting dead weight or half.pay and all otiose
in the statements, the ',eduction would not bu found to be lose charges, was, in round numbers, 6,00M,011104 From tills sum be
than that at which he should state it; for it :had always beet; proposed that 2,000,0001. should be taketi, and there weeld ibis
his principle not to onetime to exaggerate the difficulties of the remain 4.000,000/. for the whole efficient expenditure- of its may
country, nor to Rejig ie false colotire the proepeem of relief—(heer.) and the ordnance, a sum which, to him, appeared quitantough ist
The path he had' itter 'taken would bettered aceemable to the house, every useful purpose. lie admitted, however, that it would net he
ter it would be &Mid not to oceggy Muth Of the time of the hones. - enough if the ordnance was to be kept up en the reset extamegast
In stating the amount of thergirdione, he thould have to deal with scale. He druid by no mean. agree with those who thought that
several fireta,.lo4. lie eficridd #lthisM from ineolved imminent', for the artillery ought not to be reduced far below the present=
eutirtoples were atter fur trepaidlitratiOn betedler, Wei ,they would her. Since the year 1798 or 1797 the artillery and en
Mintier eapkiged 14 'histipig.thithg near him. He should beg had increased threefold. In 1792 the whole expenditure et
leave to•make the or two piton ter the House before be came the artillery, engineers, tappet's, and miners, wee only 181,0001.1
to state the **hits' . *lag of ibe. extent of . the reductions, In 1822 it was 427,0001. -and, hi 1828, 471.000/. . The num.
4aet
which it Ma tirk the 4
.. fif hiellajoity's Government to make, her of men had doubled dace the year 1792. 'ln that sypr
he trusted dig+ the Hodeonniptcl bear. in mind the amount of the the number of staff officers of engineer* was only two,
estroditurtil - Arta nidietion. tree to be made, and reflect that now it wean.% in feet, the whole army were hops tip in a Mahn
X
if was mild musidepid in. the WC of a reduction upon the ea. which lathed is if it were ready to take the 6ela-fet WOW.
Benue Of tag year. he trusted that gentlemen would loo—(Hest.) He himself could by no means me dm ty fee
me that the estimable wen not forged immediately after years of this great increase of military power in a country like this, which
continued and increasing expenditure, but that they were presented was so well protected by its insular situation. beam of all could he
to the House Ass successive periods of reduction and retrench. see the necessity of it in a country which was borne down by op.