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London, England, 1822-03-12 00:00:00

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place, that that to gratify
et • the subject, as it was not denies' dad the ,eondition i MrI.MA,NNING said, the Hon. Member for Aber.' rions imponsitiquOnisretdo
inttihit
firstth was et,
had 'Devi complied with; at all even* by the Land deen.insinsaire mistaken the meaning of his Hon.- posed.T
intended to be conveyed by this Petition against the Magistrates
Tax Redemption Act he could me_ Po flammable ob- , Mead the Member for Devizes, who was now absent. as (Meer for superannuation allowance,- he mast
of Sontersetshire ?
Mr. BeNUT said, he knew mo
orwo was to blame; whether jeetion to the progress of the Bill. ills,Mon. Friend said that the Bank would'inake no have served a certain term without interruption;
It was the perpetual Under Sheriff the Magistracy. . Mr. ELLICE said, that however Hon. Members charge for the transfer from one fund to another. This and next it fixed the rate of allowance respectively
Mr. DICKINSON replied that there was uo perpetual might agree upon the construction of these Acts, the related to all who assented to the present measure. For . for each class. In Ireland the provisions of this Act
Vltieer CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, the in: House ought to be satisfied that it was proceeding this the Bank never expected payment. But it had l had not been so soon introduced, but the Treasury
divigusl In question had been confined for fraudulent conduct, according to law. He could not comprehend the never been said that the Bank intended to forego the `had laboured to carry it into effect in that kingd
1 which had been put - • the particular usual consideration under the Act of 1808. The de- He would now shew the manner in whi:h the Act
. . of the 1m- had been applied ; and for this purpose he would

~.

independent-of the pecuniary debt to the Crown. construction upon
After a few words from Mr. Bum, iu explanation, the Act by the last Right Hon. speaker. He thought
Petition was ordered to he on the table. twenty:five millions of the Debt ought to be really
NAVY FIVE PER CENTS. BILL. and bona fide reduced before the Stock in question
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the were paid off. He was aware that a plausible answer
EXCHEQUER. the Order of 'the Day for the third to the objection had been offered in a reference to the
reading of the Navy 5 per Cents. Bill was read. The Land Tax Redemption Act ; but he misted that some
Right Hon. Gentleman then moved the third reading in.dividual holder of this Stock would try the ques-
of the Bill. tion before a legal tribunal. He wished to ask the
Mr. TIERNEY requested the attention of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman opposite upon the
House, but particularly of the Right Honourable and clause respecting trustees. He feared the language
Learned Gentleman the Solicitor-General, while he of the clause wat not sufficiently general ; and if there
stated the legal objections which the holders •f that was the least doubt upon the subject, he trusted it
Stock had to the present Bill. For his own part, he would be removed. He believed there was another
did not mean to give any opposition to the passing of clause giving to the trustees of persons residing
the Bill, but he thought it was incumbent on the abroad the same time to dissent which those persons
House to reconcile or remove the difficulties which themselves would have if the Stock stood in their
former Acts of Parliament had thrown, or seemed to own names. The same doubt applied to this clause.
have thrown, in the way. It had been stated on a He should not oppose the third reading of the Bill.
preceding night, that so much of the Public Debt had The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said the thirst
been redeemed by the operation under the Commis- stated all guardians, trustees, &c. In the word at
sioners of the Land Tax as was required by the Act was included every sort of trustee.
of 1797, that was, the 37th of the late King. Whe- Mr. WILLIAMS complained of the conduct of the
ther the operation of the Commissioners for the Re- Bank in regard to their manner of receiving the dis-1
demotion of the Land Tax applied to the 37th George cents. •He had gone to the Bank, and was informed
the Third, or to another purpose, was not the ques- by the clerk there that the erasure or alteration of one
Lion then, nor would he trouble the House with any word in the printed form would make it void. He
observations on it. It was not on that score the thought the greatest facility ought to be afforded
holders of the Stock complained. But they corn- those who were to dissent, and the Bank had no right
plained that they were debarred by the Bill then be- to throw obstacles in the way.
fore the House of the benefit arising from a twelve- Mr. LUSHINGTON said he had written to the
months public notice, to which they felt that they Governor and Company of the Bank on the subject ;
.were by law entitled. In the Act of 1797, certain and he could only suppose that the recent circum-
- • and for the stance alluded to by the Hon. Member must have ori-

priving them of this would be a breach
pact between Parliament and the Bank. The Bank
were responsible for all forgeries which might be
committed' in the course of the present transaction,
land the adopting of the present clause would of course
be relieving them from this liability.
Mr. GRENFELL said, that at the rate of 3001. per
million of the-capital debt, the charge, in consequence
of that Act; if any charge were to be made, would
amount to a sum of between two and 3,0001. per an-
num. In the present embarrassed state of the coun-
try no such charge ought to be submitted to. The
state of the country loudly called for retrenchment
and economy, and for that reason he heartily agreed,
some nights back, in the motion against the two lay
Lords of the Admiralty. But the effect of the usual
charge for that additional capital would destroy the
saving gained by that motion. He recommended the
House to make a stand against the principle of this
Bill. seeing that it might be acted upon at some fu-
ture time again, in a plan for the reduction of the 4
per cents. into 3 per cents.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
be considered that the Bank had as good a right as
any other Corporation to be remunerated for their
trouble ; but the clause now proposed was not only
adverse to such a principle, but would violate an
Act of Parliament.
Mr. HUME said that a Right Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Huskisson) had said, in a debate on a former
night, that he did not consider the Bank entitled to
the allowance, and it would be but fair to the Public
to remit it.

app. ;
take the retutns which were before the House since
May last, having then been called for in order to
chew the mode in which the Act was applied. it
would appear that retrenchment had been carried OR
with a rigour, which at least would leave very little
room for the charge of extravagance against
Mi-
nisters. He would next take the great Revenue De.
partment, consisting of the offices of the Customs
and Excise. The total amount of the salaries for the
officers of this general department in May last was
1,664,0001. and the number of persons in active set.,
vice amounted at the same period to 17,347 ; the
number of persons on superannuation alls.r.vances at
the same date was 173,2, receiving the sum ,:f151.,65ty.
being about 95/4 per cent. on the total sum paid for
actual services. The number of persons then u %es,
annuation allowance, as compared with tl.e number
of those in actual service was as one to ten. 'the
average amount of allowance to each person, there-
fore, was eighty-nine -pounds five shillings a year, or
4s. 10d. per day ; and it would be seen also, that the
average period of service was very nearly 29 years,
although a great number of the officers were obliged
to conform to this regulation, who had been appointed
at a time when one much more favourable had been
in practice. He would now call the attention of the
Committee to the other great public departments...—
These consisted of the Treasury Offices, Offices of
State, of the Privy Council, Colonial Office, State
Paper Office, and sunch y other Offices, all of which
he would comprise under the general head of the pi in-
cipal Executive Offices of State. The total number
of offir ..ncif-- this head amounted in May tst 953.

provisions were made for the 3 per cents..
4 per cents. and also for the 5 per cents. In that Bill
there was a clause declaring the 3 and 4 per cents. to
be redeemable at any period. But the 5 per cents.,
were not iedeemable by that Act until a sum of
25,000,0001. of the Public Debt was redeemed and
paid off. The Right Honourable Gentleman then
called for the volume of the Statutes containing the
37th of George the Third, and referred to the clauses
which provided for the redemption of the 3 and 4'
per cents. in the manner and according to the tenour'
prescribed by the 25th of George the Second. By
the latter Act, all the 3 per cents. were consolidated,
and were redeemable after twelve months notice,
which was to be published in the Gazette, and to be
fixed up in the Itoyal Exchange. The question was,
whether the twelve months notice did not apply to.
the 5 per cents. also, as well as to the 3 and 4 per
cents. The Act of 1797 required that 25,000,0001.
of the Public Debt should be paid off, before any of
the 5 per cent. Stock was redeemable, and the 25th
of George the Second, to which the 37th of George
the Third referred, required twelve months notice.
Both these conditions were to be fulfilled, and it was
then, and not until then, that any of the annuities
created by that stock were to be paid off. He con-
fessed that to him there seemed to be a vast dif-
ference between the words .‘ redeemed" and ig paid
off," and he did not think the Stock standing in the
names of the Commissioners for Redeeming the Na-
tional Debt could be said to be " paid off." The
object which he (Mr. Tiezney) had in what he then
addressed to the House was, how they were to get

)y t.
ginated in some mistake.
Mr. WILLIAMS said he knew more than ten in-
stances in which the Bank refused to receive the dis-
sent of persons. He thought a simple form ought to
be made out for the convenience of those who were
inclined to dissent.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, all that was
required • by the Act was to signify the dissent in
writing, signed by the party, or their agents duly au-
thorised, and any obstacle thrown in the way was
certainly illegal.
Mr. WILLIAMS said the Bank was doing all in
its power to prevent the dissentients from going in
with their notice of dissent. Their conduct was ille-
gal. The Act required no such form as that adopted
by the Bank.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL observed, that what
he meant to say was, that the Bank had no power to
refuse to receive the notices of dissent.
Mr. WILLIAMS complained also of the order in
which the dissentients were to be paid. The conduct
of the Bank had the effect of altering the numbers
of those whose dissents they refused. The Bank took
on itself to do what it had no right to do.
Mr. J. MARTIN cited similar instances of obstacles
thrown in the way of dissentients by the Bank.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER ob-
served, with respect to a question put by an Hon.
Member (Mr. Ellice), that one trustee out of many
entering his dissent, would give the benefit of that
dissent to all the trustees, as well as if all of them
had actually entered their dissent. With respect to

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY considered
the saving proposed to be made of so little conse-
quence as that it ought not to be put in competition
with the maintenance isf good faith with the Bank.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that he was sur-
prised to hear the Noble Marquis speak so lightly of
a saving in this instance, when, but a few nights
since, he enlarged upon the necessity and impo-tance
of even the smallest saving to the Public. The real
question before the House was, whether or not, when
the interest of the Pub& Debt was to be lessened,
the allowance to the Bank was to be increased?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had
not argued on the amount of the saving, but on the
force of a contract, which ought not to be violated
in the case of a large or a small sum.
Mr. RICARDO said, that it appeared to be ap-
prehended that the Bank would have additional trou-
ble by the increase of the capital in the new Stock.—
The fact was, that no additional duty would be im-
posed on the Bank, as the number of transfers would
be about the same in the new Stock as in the old.
And he should further remark, that it always ap-
peared to him a great inconsistency, that the Bank
should receive the same remuneration for transfers in
the S per cents. as in the 5 per cents. for in the higher
Stock the number of transfers was by far the greatest.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that the
object of the proposed clause was to take away from
the Bank the remuneration which they were entitled
by contract to receive.
Mr. HUME.—The object of the clause is to leave

. officers under , Ku may
The number of superannuated petsons to 70, or about
one in every fourteen in actual service. The reason
why the number of superannuations was so small, was
that the Gentlemen who enjoyed the offices were un-
willing to retire, as long as they found themselves ca-
pable of doing the duties of the situation. The
amount of salaries to persons in active service was
205,0001. the amount of superannuation was 23,0001.
being about llt per cent. on the amount of salaries.
It would strike the House that the allowance for su-
perannuations was considerably beyond the propor-
tion of that of the Revenue department. Host ever, the
reason was, that as the offices in the latter instance
were of considerably greater importance, requiring
=en of superior character, and as they had larger sa-
laries, it was thought reasonable that their alloa ances
ou retirement should likewise be increased. The
average allowance to each person was 329/. a year.
He thus felt entitled to say that the operation of the Act
of 1810 had been in every respect just and fair to the
public and the servants of the Crown. He was will-
ing to admit that there were many defects is that Act.
One of those defects, which it was his wish to amend,
was the want of equability between the scale of al-
lowances and the period at which the parties be-
came entitled to those allowance. For instance, by
the regulations of the Act in question, a person who
had served ten years, and under twenty, was entitled
to retire on half his salary ; but on from twenty to t,rty-
five years service there w.ts no increase. It was there-
fore plain that a great number would be induced to
There was also a

Virell.b,
over the difficulty of the notice which was required
by the 25th of George the Second ? For his own part,
he declared he did not conceive how that obstacle
was to be removed, and he hoped one of the Hon.
and Learned Gentlemen opposite would be able to
satisfy the House on that point. The Right Honour-
able Gentleman again referred to the Acts, and said
he did not mean to throw any embarrassment in the
way of the Bill. It was, however, his opinion, that
the House should not suffer the present Bill to pass,
without being fully satisfied on the point to which he
had called their attention.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL said, that the no.
tice of twelve months, which was required by the
Act of George the Second, to which the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) referred, did not apply to
the Five per Cents. He would not say that if the
present measure regarded holders of Three per Cents.
and not holders of Five per Cents. it would be com-
petent for the House to effect it without twelve
months notice ; but if persons holding the Three per
Cents. made no objection to the want of notice, all
the conditions of the Act referred to might be sup-
posed to be complied with. By the thirty-seventh
of the late King, the holders of the Five per
Cents. were liable to be paid off when twenty-five
millions of the Three per Cents. were paid off. But
the holders of those redeemed Three per Cents. hay-
ing waived the objection as to the required notice,
the holders of the Five per Cents. could not say that
the Statute was not complied with, when the holders
of the Three per Cents. were themselves satisfied.
He hoped what he had said was a sufficient explana-
tion of the points on which the Right Hon. Gentle-
man had so much doubt.
Mr. TIERNEY said his objection was, that by the
mode which had been adopted for paying off the S
per cents. the holders of the present Stock had been
injured. The holders of the latter had been no par-
ties to the arrangement with those of the S per cents.
and they were now taken on the sudden.
Mr. they-were
thought the whole question
turned upon the construction of the words " paid off."
In the Act which had been mentioned, it was evident

ly
the form of this dissent, there was no objection in law
to the form given out by the Bank.
Mr. WILLIAMS said that the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) seemed to
have misunderstood him. What he said was, that
persons waited at the Bank on Saturday last, to give
their dissent, and the Cashier refused to receive it be.
cause it was not in the form which he wished. He
wished to know how such a person was to act, and in
what order he was to be paid ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
if the individual handed in his dissent, he had a right
to be paid in that numerical order. So few, however,
would be the dissentients, that no one could lose by
it, even if he was put out of his numerical order !!
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that on a former night it
bad been stated that the Bank of Ireland received no
remuneration for any trouble occasioned by the trans-
actions connected with the public disbursements. He
was of opinion, that as the Bank of England was to
be indemnified for their trouble in that transfer, the
Bank of Ireland ought to receive an indemnity in
the like proportion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
there would be no occasion for any indemnity to Ire-1
land, as no trouble would be given them.
The Bill being then read a third time,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved
for leave to bring up a clause for granting, until the
30th of June, DM, for the Accountants-General in
Chancery and in the Exchequer to signify their dis-
sent, which was granted. The clause was brought
up, and is entitled " A Clause for directing the dim:
sent of the Accountants-General, 4w." and read a first
and second time.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER the clause was read a third time, and ordered
to be added by way of rider to the Bill.
Mr. HUME said, that on a preceding night it had
been stated by one of the Directors of the Bank of
England, the Hon. Member for Devizes (Mr. Pearse)
and by the Hon. Secretary to the Treasury, that a
charge ought to be made by the Bank for the addition
to the capital of the Debt. The Bank charged at the
£3OO

them the same amount of remuneration as before.
Mr. T. WILSON considered that the force of the
contract was so great, as that the House was not in
a situation to go between it and the Bank. He be-
lieved that no additional trouble was imposed on the
Bank ; but, with this persuasion, and with all his
anxiety to save the public money, he still felt that
the House was not competent to distuob the contract
The clause was then put, and negatived without a
division. On the motion that the Bill do pass,
Mr. W. WILLIAMS said, he would read an ex-
tract from a speech of Mr. Pitt, spoken in 1784, in
confirmation of the views which he (Mr. Williams)
had the honour to submit to the House on a former
night. The extract which he then read was to the
effect, that any interference with the Public Debt,
which had not for its object the reduction of the said
Debt, ought to be deprecated.—The Bill then passed,
and was carried up to the Lords.
SUPERANNUATION ACT.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHE-
QUER, the House resolved itself into a Committee of
the whole House on the Superannuation Act.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
that in proposing some amendments of the Superan-
nuation Act, he felt it necessary to enter at some de-
tail into the measures, which, in conformity with the
recommendation of his Majesty in his Speech from
the Throne, and the promise of the House in answer
thereto, it was thought advisable to adopt for the
reduction of the public expenditure. He apprehended
that he would be taking the course most likely to put
the House in possession of the necessary information,
if he were to begin with explaining first the course',
which had been formerly adopted with regard to
those who were entitled, on their retirement, to an
allowance from the Public, in consequence of age
and services; and next to explain the nature of the
measures, which had been the result of a careful re-
vision of the former imperfect system. With respect
to the retirement allowance of Public Officers, he un-
derstood it to be now settled, that the legal right of
granting superannuation allowances was vested in'
his Majesty, and in some cases in the Treasury. It
_ .

retire after twenty years service.
regulation that none under sixty-five years of aye
should have more than threc-fouiths of his saLry:
but it appeared to be much more advantageous that
a scale of progressive increase should be established.
He should propose as the best mode of effecting this,
that the whole period of service should be divided
into terms of five years, adding one-twelfth ot- the
amount of salary for each term of five years. AL the
same time that he should propose some regulation of
this kind, he should also propose to leave a di,cre-
tionary power to fix a rate of allowance without re-
ference to these rules. He intended this to meet cases
wherein the appointments were of a nature that pre-
cluded their being held by young men: for instance,
the situation of Solicitor to the Treasury obviously
required those qualifications which a young man
could not be expected to possess. A Gentleman for
such a post must be a man of experience, learning,
and high character at the Bar, and it would be un-
just to place a person so endowed on a level with a
young maa of seventeen, who entered at the bottom
of the list into office. He proposed to vest, by the
Bill which he should submit to the House, a power
in the Treasury to meet such cases, with a proviio
that all such extraordinary allowances be laid before
Parliament at its next meeting, with the reasons on
which the Treasury found their grant. Another de-
fect in the Act was, that it did not point out in a suf-
ficiently clear way those persons that were entitled
to claim superannuation allowances--(thar).--
In the Bill by which he proposed to supplant this
Act, he should provide that all persons should be
entitled, provided they had served during the time
prescribed. Judicial and Exchequer appointments
were to be considered as special in this particular, the
Treasury exercising this qualified power of fixing the
amount of pension. But, in order to render the pri:'-
ciple of Superannuation as equitable as possible, he
should propose that those who, upon retirernentovere
to be entitled to claim a participation, should, during
their service, contribute towards the fund. This
might be regarded as a reduction of salary, but it
was thought a more unobjectionable mode to make

that they referred to the condition that a given sum
should be paid off before this Stock should be re-
deemed. The clause stopped at the words " paid off,"
and did not go on to state any particular manner—
[Mr. TIEUNEY, across the table, said, the particular
manner of paying off was provided for in the 16th
section of the Act].He begged pardon of the Right
Hon. Gentleman: the whole of that clause related to
the 3 per cents.—(lleer, hear).—He admitted that
the per cents. as now constituted, could not be paid
off without twelve months notice, whatever advan-
agei might offer themselves to Government to pay
aff within those twelve months. The argument of
Right llon. Member would infer that Mr. Pitt
tied himself up from paying off the Ftve per
Cents. without twelve months nonce—an idea too ab-
to be seriously entertained. The language of
Act itself was, however, as clear as possible .0

rate of __ for each million of capital, for
of the National Debt. It was evident that such
a charge for the addition to the capital by the present
Bill, would bring a heavy burden on the country.
The Hon. Gentleman then stated the amount of the
Debt in 1808 to have been 613,000,000, and to have
been since increased by one-third, or 200,000,0001.
more, which, for management, brought a large an-
nual charge on the Public. Any one who would in-
quire into that subject, would find that the Bank re-
ceived annually no less than 270,000/. for manage-
ment. He held in his hand a clause for providing,
that there should be no charge for management on
the sum of sit or seven millions added to the capital
of the Debt by the operation of that Bill. The Hon.
Gentleman having stated the effect intended by the
clause, hoped there would be no objection made to it,
and asked for leave to bring it up.

must be confessed, that up to the 30th of George
111. the system was very vague, and liable to abuses.
The allowances were often made by grants of sine-
cures, or by an arrangement extremely inconvenient ;
such, for instance, as this :—When an officer from
age or infirmity retired, be received as a part of
his allowance some portion of the salary of his suc-
cessor. It must be obvious that such a system was
open to much abuse; but the Commissioners of Pub-
lic Accounts who revised this arrangement, recom-
mended in 1789 the introduction of the system of
superannuation allowances, but it was not till 1797
that the Treasury acted upon this recommendation.
Even this improved system was found to be open to
much abuse, and in consequence of a careful revision
of the practice, fotnided upon a series of important
complaints, the Act of 1810 was brought into Par-
liament. This Act was intended to correct the va-

a reduction of that nature contribute towards this
provision against the evils of infirmity, rather than
by a mere act of authority to cut down a portion of
salary at once. The benefit was thus divided between
the Public and the party suffering the diminution.—
He proposed, therefore, in pursuance of this prin-
ciple, that a deduction for this purpose should be
made on every salary above £lOO of 5 per cent. and
under that sum, and above £5O, of 21 per tem. By
referring to the papers he had already spoken of, it
would be found by comparing the aggregate amount
of the superannuation pensions with the agg: eoe
amount of salaries, that the average rate upon the
latter was 10 percent. so that 5 per cent. off all the sala•
rics will cover one-halt; and be a saving to the l'ublic.
It was his intention also to propose to effect certain
reductions in salaries, to commence, however, unit
the successors to those at present in office, whom he