Star.
London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

. HOUSE OF COMMONS, An 19.
The Gallery was not opened till font o'clock, owing to there being a
ballot for the Coleraine Fitt t!on Committee; but though there went
the requisite number of members present, no ballot took place.
Lord A LTHORP presented the Northamptonshire Reform petition.
Mr. CARTWRIGHT did not consider that the petition repre. I
seated the opinions of the majority of the freeholders.—Petition
ovdered to be printed.
A desultory conversation took place as trithe interruption at, and
the character of the meeting, in which the county Members. Mr. 0.
Sumo and Sir G. Roaruswe took part.—Petition ordered to be printed.
Lord A LTHORP then presented peddons from Perth and Towcester
in favour of Reform.
Mr. DUNCOVI BE presented petitions against it from Leeds,
Donee ter, Bradford and l'arnstaple.
Lord 31ORPETH admitted, that some most respectable name,
were att whed to the petition—but those from Barnsky and Bradford.
he was instructed, had not resulted from public meetings.
Mr. OUNCOM BE spoke to the great respectability of the peti-
tioners.
Mr. SYK ES understood that the petitions did not represent one-
twentieth pa•t of the number, wealth or respectability, of those places,
and that the petitions proceeded from what might truly be called the
oligarchy of those places.
Petitions ordered to be printed..
Mr. LYTTLETON presented the Staffordshire County Petition.
It was signed by four thousand Freeholders, amongst whom were 11
Peers, the Illarquisses of Stafford, Cleveland, &c. There would base
been more had time allowed.
Mr. LYTTLETON presented a petition from Bursley against the
new Beer-shops.

ILETORINI BILL.-ADJOURNID DEBATE.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the resumption of the adjourned
debate on the Reform Bill.
Mr. BULNIER said he considered the question of reform, or no Re-
form, had been decided ages ago, therefore he had been surprised at the
speechl of the Member for Newark. The present measure, however,
was not calculated to pass the House, nor pacify the country. How-
ever, those who opposed, or those who supported the Bill, they did it
with the view of preventing revolution. But what was the state of the
Press ? he would refer to that part of the press, of which the Hon mere.
ber for Preston might know something ; but of which he apprehended,
the members knew little. He then quoted " the poor man's friend,"
which did not wish the 13111 to pass, because then there must be revo-
lution. lie supported the Bill so calculated to prevent revolution; he
supported the Bill because some reform was necessary ; because it was
advisable to meet the wishes and wants of the people; and because he
thought this measure the bast that could he devised.
Mr. CAMPBELL said the speeches which they heard, showed
the necessity of Reform ; for Members now spoke of their pa.
trons, and the means by which some members got into that house,
namely, on nomination, as a matter of coune. He wu not disposed to
find fault with the train of address that the honourable member who
last spoke had adopted, farther than to hope that the present measure
;night pass, if it were for no other purpose than to prevent honourable
members of that house talking of the noble lord who had sent them
there—language which had become almost as common in that house as
the expression of his constituents, and which would actually have hor.
ror-struck any hon. member in that house in antient times. It was to
be hoped the time would speedily arrive when such expressions could
no longer be heard of. His principal object, however, was to address a
few observations to the motion that had been made by the hon. and gal.
lain officer onthe other side of the house. That motion was that the
members returned for England remain, they being 513. For such a re-
solution he was totally at a loss to discover any principle. What was
there so magical or so sacred in the number 13 ? Lord Coke had
said there was something singular in the number 12—there were
twelve tribes of Egypt--twelve signs of the zodiac -twelve disciples
—twelve apostle—twelve months in the year—and twelve judes of
Ragland ;—(much laughter)—but what there was in 513 he had
yet to find out. Again, with respect to the number 50 for Scotland, '
why th it number was to remain inviolate he had no means of know-
ing. On the contrary, in going back to the original resolutions be-
tween the commissioners fur England and the commissioners for Scot-
land, to adjost the Union, be found it was clearly understood by the
commissioners for Scotland, and he believed by the commissioners for
England, that the number might and should be varied. The original
proposition was on the part of the commissioners for England, that
Scotland should send thirty-eight representatives, but that number
was afterwards varied to forty-five. The Scotch certainly did not in-
sist on having more, but they looked forward to the British parliament
for leave to have the number increased. Could it be imagined that
whatever change' might take place with respect to the wealth and in-
crease of population of Scotland, that the number of forty-five should
remain unvaried for ever ? Should it happen that any time there
should be a larger population, and a greater amount of wealth in Scot-
land than in the southern part of Britain, could it be said then that
England should send five hundred and thirteen members, and Scotland
only 46. There was absurdity on the face of the proposition. How hap-
pened it that England returned 513 members, and Scotland and Ireland
return:also many less ? It arose from an absolute abuse of the pre-
fr eof the Crown. (hear.) It arose not from the zepresentatives
of large counties and populous places, but from an indisputable abuse
of the Crown in individuals being vested wish the power of sending
members tothat house. This was directly repugnant to the constitu-
tion of England, that constitution required that the representatives of
the people in parliament should be returned by the people, and in no
other way. The principle of returning the members to Parliament was
laid down so long ago as the time of Edward the First—he laid it
down in the summonses which he issued, and he trusted that the time
was at hand when that principle would be recognised 'pin, and acted
upon in its largest acceptation. That was the principle of the Bill—it
declared that the representation ought to be that of the people. It pro-
flossed to be such, and it was not representation if it were not such.—
The old writs led to the belief that the principle of universal suffrage
was admitted ; but the application of that principle would now lead to
universal ruin and confusion. The disfranchisementa in schedule A.
were most correct—in the representation there could be nothing like
vested interests. • What rights could Old Sarum have when all its in.
habitants were gone ? He should oppose the amendment.
Mr. VANE opposed the motion, and supported the amendment. The
bill was wild, and would be most destructive. Three years ago the
noble Paymaster of the Forces said that the voice of the people did not
call for a reform : the demand did not recur till the late French revolu-
tion extended the epidemic to this country. There were persons who
held that reform would lead to reduction of taxes and to cheap govern-
ment—but those who countenanced such sentiments deluded the people,
except they were prepared to support the breach of national faith.
The dividends must be paid, therefore taxes must be enforced ; and if
that were not done, there would be an end to church and state. The
bill excluded the mass of the people, but those who would be returned
under it would not be very likely to sustain the national faith. That
was a decided argument with him as to the bill. It was without prin.
ciple, and he viewed it as an insult to the united people. He envied
not that man his heart who conceived this bill, be he who he might—
(Hear, hear, and much laughter.) He repeated, he envied not such a
man his heart. He should support the amendment, to preserve the
number of the house.
Mr. WILBRAHAM said he bad always been friendly to the prin.
ciple of reform, and ever since he entered public life thought the tor-
rupt manner ha which some seats were filled ought to be corrected.—
What be had seen in that house—after the cloak that had been thrown
over corruption—his opinions became strengthened. After the East
Retford 'Stir, he was persuaded that nothing but a measure of general
reform would meet the necessity of the case. Nothing short of that
general reform would meet the wants and wishes of the people ;
nothing less would pay off the debt contracted with the people. He de.
stied that there was any thing revolutionary in this measure. If there
were, then were the unions of Scotland and Ireland, which intro-
duced so many " foreigners " into that house—and the measure
disfranchising the forty shilling freeholders of Ireland—most revo-
lutionary proceedings. (Hear, hear.) But in truth it was nothing
of the kind. He denied that there was any revolutionary mirk in the
country ; but if there were was it likely to be checked by the re-
jection of this bill ? Would not its adoption, on the contrary, be
calculated to counteract that spirit, and increase the affections of the
lapople tot the institutions of the country ? Admitting that the popu-
r rights were largely extended, why should they suppose that the
people would be bland to their own interests ? And by the change,
would they not get into that house for one hundred and sixty drones,
one hundred and fifteen working bees P That was his impression. If
the plan were calculated to be beneficial to parts of the people, was it not
also calculated to promote the interests of the whole people. He thought
it was. They had heard a good deal from gentlemen, that they
would not object to moderate reform ; but he had heard nothing front
arty of them what they meant by moderate reform What was the re-
form, moderate or otherwise, which they would support? (Hear,
hear.) Would they approve the disfranchisement of one rotten borough ?
That was the test by which be would try those who called themselves
moderate reformers ; for had they supported the correction of any abuses
in any of the rotten boroughs that had been brought before the house ?
He considered representation to be the hinge on which the public wel-
fare turned—that this Bill would introduce requisite amendments into
the system of representation, therefore the Bill bad his cordial sup-
port. (Hear.)
The Isom. Mr. C. DOI IO LAS was of opinion that the Bill was not
desirable in its details.
Mr. HAWKINS said, that he was determined to oppose to the tit.
most of his abilities every motion that would tend to frustrate the great
measure of reforfia. He could not help remarking that those who pro-
fessedly opposed the bill always admitted that sonic change was neces-
any ; but it so happened that just at the present time they discovered
that this was not the proper time; they preferred to anticipate any
change at some distance (Hear, hear, from the ministerial benches.)
The ilOl3. member scouted the idea of the importance that was pretended
to be attached to what was called the vested rights in the boroughs, he
thought that there was precedent for all the alteration that was contem-
plated by the bill. The very fact of the present family being placed on
the throne of England was a sufficient precedent for disfranchising the
gemination boroughs, u it proved that from time to time such altera.