Star.
London, England, 1814-11-19 00:00:00

HOW OF COMMONS.

Mr. TIERNEV coniimualion) wished to: ro .if:
'was to be underirsed, that the whole of Os; 4krsey
Lxtraordinaries, ei elusive of what may be it ichrtetti
. at the present moment, was included in the
. 9.000,0(X) now on the table .?
[The Chazieellor 0
the Exchequer answered (4-Yes."] He was very glad:
that it was so. He saw no great use in detain-
the Committee ; for, to do them justice, they do hear
with a great deal of complaisance, the propositions
of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He only wished,
that they would not vote money so as t 6 eneoitrage
applications without the fbllest production of dont-
Ments. The amount of the estimates hird been given!
to Ministers in a Vote of Credit, beyond which they
had no right to go one sixpence.
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
explained, in answer to the question of Mr. Tierney,
whether the whole expense of the Extraordinariei
was included in the £19,000,000 ? that what he
• meant to say was, that he believed the whole amount
would cover the excess, and every sum except the
items before the House. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man complained, that the expensei for which the
House"was now called upon to provide, as they must
have been known to Ministers previous to the close of
the late Session, had not• before been submitted to
Parliament. He bad to observe, that all the engage-
menis entered into by his Majesty's Ministers (with
the exception of those relating to Hanover), badbeeu
communicated vb both Houses in the late Sessions,
and had received the sanction of Parliament. The
treaties concluded with Russia, Prussia, Austria, and

Denmark, were theti made known ; and be was sue
prised, under such circumstances, that on this ground
complaint should be made. Theeßight Honourable
Gentleman wished to impose upon Ministers terms
which were rather too hard to be patiently endured
by any human being ; for he bad said, that with him
impossibility would not excuse their not having done
whit he could wish to see accomplished. The im-
-6t making up the accounts would not sa-
• usff hitrefoi their not being produced.
Mr: TlERNWitleciared he had said nothing of
• the kind, and *Ma thank the' Right Honourable
• Gentleman noeetrput words into his mouth which he
had never uttered. He had said, if it was impos-
sible to produce accounts of the whole £10,000,000
expended in the Army Extraordinaries, that was no
reesosa why a part of them should not be produced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the grant he asked was to cover expenses which
had already been incurred, .and which, whether Mi-
nisters could justify their conduct op not, must be
paid by the country. Whatever their conduct might
be, he hoped, when the proper time came, they
should be able fully to justify themselves ; but what-
ever it should prove to have been, and whatever pu-
nishment they might hereafter be exposed to, the
sums called for must be paid. Ministers certainly
made this demand on their Nun responsibility ; and,
in his opinion, it was for the advantage of the public
that it should be made now, leaving it -pen to Par-
. Bement to institute, at any subsequent period, sech
inquiries into the conductof himself and his colleagues
as the case might appear to require. He was glad
the Right HonouraLle Gentleman admitted that the
work they had had in hand was done. Since he ac-
knowledged it W4b done, it ought be paid for.
Mr. TIERNEY denied having said the work was
done. He bad said he hoped it would be done, and
that the Congress of Vienna would definitively com-
plete the work of peace.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
was glad the Right Hon. Gentleman had given this
explanation. He had said there was a great differ-
ence between paying and talking about it. He hoped
he would admit he had said this. After what had
been accomplished he trusted the House would see
the propriety or paying now. The Right Hon. Gen-
tleman would hereafter have many opportunities of
talking about it—(a laugh.) He had to offer a few
observations upon another subject, which had been
touched upon by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He
(Mt. Tierney) had asked, with respect to the Hano-
verian troops, why they were not to be paid by Hann
wee These troops, he had to state, were employed
by us in the same way as any other troops, taken into
our pay fee the accomplishment of British objects, and
had therefore as eauthliight to look to England for
pay as the Bavariles, Wirtembergers, or the soldiers
• of any country we might subsidize.- When Hanove-
. Tian troops wereemployed in any way for the benefit
• of Hanover, for such benefit Hanover must pay.—
By the Convention made subsequent to the treaty of
Chaumont, only the four great Powers forming the
grand alliance had been called upon to keep a body
of troops on foot till the fate of Germany was de-
cided. None of the minor States had been called
upon to do this. Bavaria, Wirtemburgle and other
countries, more considerable than Hanover, had not
been required to bear any part of their expense—and
there exists, therefore, no reason for calling upon
Hanover to take a share of it to hereself. He had
before explained the causes of Hanover being erected
into a kingdom. He did not know that it was neces-
sary to say more on the subject. It was a matter
which did not concern England, as by making Hano-
ver a kingdom she gained no additional claim on this
• country. The name of an Electorate, in the present
situation of Germany, was objected to, and it had
become inappropriate where the Sovereignty was no
longer elective, and where in consequence !here no
longer remained Electors. He had been a little sur-
prised at the observations made with respect to our
paying the Russian fleet, which had been so long on
our harbours or co-operating with our navy. N.-
th'ng had given the people of this country confidence
in the alliance formed between England and Russia,
se much as the circumstance of that fleet being con•
fided to our care.. Nothing could more strongly
' pledge'the Eraperof Alexander to the magnanimous
petseverance which'had bee'n crowned with such glo-
rious results, eed, Ander all circumstances to dispose
him to continue the .war t.) the last extremity. No
• money to be paid by the pe)ple of this cournry would,
in his opinion, be paid with greater cheerfulness than
that voted for the payment of the Russian fleet.
• Mr. BARING observed, that on this question of
the Army Extraordiniries, the details were insuffi-
cient for any explanation, aed that when laid before
the House they would appear to be merely statements
of eainituissaries' drawing to suclf and such an
erne 'min Unless he was misinformed, he believed

nn account from 1307 till now had been audited and
ex mined, either on the affairs of the Mediterranean,,
thirPebinsula, or America. Ide should be happy to;
this denied, but he should move for papers et=
story of that subject. He believed that the
lot of the Exchaqder had little more infor-
mation on the subject to communicate than other
Members. Even the name of the great hero who
commanded in the Peninsula ought not to stand in
the way of examination into the accounts of the Com-
missariat. A chief feature of the expenses was for
mules, for which the furnisher received certificates
of service. Suppose a Spanish army landed in Wales,
and carrying OR war among the mountains, should
give similar certificates; what would be done with
them Conceive then, what the Spanish muleteer
would do with them. In fact, he sold them at 50 or
60 per cent. discount. If a Committee were ap-
pointed to examine, it would be found that the fur-
nisher received not• more than a third of what was

..._.._. ..„.
paid by the British public. These certificates were I
bought up at a discount, by which means enormous
fortunes had been made in Spain. He could bring
persons to prove this statement. He had seen a man
two or three days ago who had made 55 per cent. by
the purchase of this paper, which was yet to be bought
at from 25 to 27 per cent. discount. He would ask
what Government could have been about year after,
year, when such transactions were going forward ?
The difficulties had, in fact, arisen out of the very
system. Ten millions had been expended when five,
millions might have served, particularly if specie
could have been brought forward. Even with all
the specie that could he gotten in the last twelve
months, paper had sold at a large discount in Spain.
Every
_means had been used tt lower and vilify the
paper. He was very. lately told by a person that he
could still buy up mule certificates at 2S per cent.
discount, but was afraid of the many forgeries.
muleteer did not know what to do. with the piper,
and sold it for what it would (kelt." The great fault
was, a total want of the examination dfaecanhts•—
How would such delay tell in the private coneerus.of
any individual or company? In pubes? 4419*"
ever examination was put off, so itobe on the axe
rage from twelve to fifteen years of -arrears ; and then
people could only justify themselves bilnustering up
an old document, or, perhaps, by, having preserved
their different vouchers. The first 'thing to be done
in this matter was to establish a Committee, to form
a proper and adequate system for the., regulation of
large expenditures. The war in Spain began in 1808,
and it was only in 1813 that an auditor was sent out,
till when, he was told, that the Commissioners defied
any examination. It therefore appeared absolutely
necessary, that examination should be had, and a bet-

ter system adopted.
Mr. GORDON said, that as he understood by what
fell from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, we were
paying a subsidy to Sicily, which, he also understood,
was engaged in war with Naples, with which latter
Power, as far as he could learn, we were virtually at
peace. It, therefore, seemed extraordinary to subsi.
dize Sicily its a war between her and Naples. We
appeared desit ous and anxious to get rid of our money
to one power or another. The only hope of economy
he had was in his Right Honourable Friend on the
Treasury Bench ( Mr. Huskisson), who had been such
an advocate for retrenchment, and who, he trusted,
wouid give good advice to his colleagues. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that certainly the affairs of Europe .were net
settled till the business of the Congress was finished.
He could not see how a Committee of that House
could settle the audit of the public accounts. It the
House could have done it, it would have done jilting
ago. It was a particular object of Mr. Pitt, His
Noble Friend the Marquis of Lansdowne had done
as much as he could to effect it, when in office ; and
all must remember the assiduous efforts of an Hon.
Gentletnan (Mr. Bankes). It was not the fault of
that Hiurse that the detects existed. Commissaries in
Spain had sent in their accounts. How far it was in
the power of auditors here or abroad to obtain perfect
information, he could not pretend to say. There might
be very considerable fraud lying under the shape of even
fair vouchers: but he hoped and trusted that no pains
and no exertions would be wanting to examine and to
unravel the whole business to the very bottom. He
was surprised to hear any thing like general reflec-
tions thrown out on the Commissariat. It was an
arduous duty, and it would be a painful return to
the conscientious and deserving to be classed among
those on whom suspicions might fall. He held the
character of a Commissary to be a most honourable
one, and deserving, it well sustained, of the highest
reputation. There should be some discrimination'
between objects of praise and of censure. Govern-
ment would he fully repaid, if by the examination,
truth was stripped from falsehood, and integrity from
dishonesty. It was an observation of Mr. Burke,
applicable to this case, that the councils of necessity
were seldom wise. He hoped, however, that the sys-
tem on the whole would be found good ; though
from want of a previous system, sufficiently digested
and established, there might have been some expen-
sive arrangements. There was no doubt that the
expense had been greater than it would have been,
sc,tild we h tve procured cash ; but yet, in spite of all
untoward circumstances, the exchange continued im-
proving. Nothing shewed more clearly the vigour
and prosperity of British commerce. Whether we
should hare such. another war as the last, Goo only
knew ; and might Gon avert ! The difficulties at-
tending the war with America he had never hidden;
yet it'could not press particularly upon our resources,
as in the case of the late European war. Our penin=
sular debts v;L: had nearly ascertained; and there
appeared to remain about seven or eight millions of
dollers.

Mr. BARING, in explanation, remarked that the
abuse was inseparable from the system. A Commis-
sary hired a muleteer for a bit of paper, and then
some friend of his, or any other man, bought it for
a third of its nominal value, and brought it as a
good docuthitt to Somerset•house, and by this sort
of traffic immense fortunes were made. This practice
had tree carried 'to an enormous extent. Five mil-
lions, he repeated, might have answered the objects of
ten.. The Chancellor of the Exchequer had stated,
that' three or four Commissaries had delivered in
their accouhts ; but he not s.iid that those ac-
counts had beet audited or examined. As to the
difficulties respecting, public accounts, if they were to
believe the Right hon. Gentleman, examination was
impracticable. frolv did all the other Powers of

. .
Europe pioceel in Such matterrt He believed they
were very particular and careful at That subjeet.--",
nowt was-it in Indian affairs tln them, an accounts
.were ex.imined and audited under the management
of persons conversant in business, as correctly as in
the private concerns of any Merchant. This was a
species of absolute safety, compared to the loose sys-
tem of our public expenditure. Mr. Burke liming
been mentioned, he recollected an observation of his

on this point. He said he would as soon attack the
prerogatives of the Crown as the Treasury oa the
mode of making up their accounts.
Mr. RO iE entered into a statement of the steps
taken by Mr. Pitt for better auditing the. public ac-
counts. The process had been since his time gradu-
ally amended, and nuw scarcely admitted of addi-
tional improvement. At any rate, Government had
no possible motive for screening any Commissary
guiky of peculation.
Mr. BARING mentioned, as an instance of the

intolerable delay which took place in auditing the
public accounts, that the accounts of the late Sir
Brook Watson were not settled to this day. He

ascribed the difficulty of improvement in this branch
to the pertinacity of some people in protecting their
little interests in the observance of certain antiquated
forms at the Ex.elsequer. No country in Europe kept
its accounts in the same slovenly manner as this.
Mr. BANKES also thought our system of audit
far from being perfect, and clogged with various un-
necessary forms. This was so much the case, that in
the Exchequer words and figures were constantly
used which even those most versant in the offize did
not know the meaning of. The House should never
rest satisfied till it arrived at that perfection in the
triode of audit which was visible in any great Mer-
chant's counting-house.
' Mr. ROSE observed, in explanation, that the Ex-
chequer process did not apply to accounts until they
had been audited. It, therefore, could be no cause
of the delay.
Mr. PONSONBY remarked on the unsatisfactory
mode in which this immense grant of eight millions
was proposed. Suppose it to be voted, and also that
they were. afterwards asked why ?—the only answer
they could give was, that it was to be paid for mili-
, .tary expenses. There was one paper on the table
purporting to be an additional article to the Treaty
with Sweden, dated so far back as October, 1815—
and though it stipulated a large subsidiary allowance
to that Power, this was the first day any notice had
been taken of it. There was another thing which
struck him as most extraordinary. Halt the former
•aubsidy, we were told, .was still to be paid to Sicily,
'because she was not at peace. Were we, then, to
pay that Government a subsidy, because, from some
team or other, with which we had no connection, it
still chose to remain at war ? At present, he sup-
posed. the war was between Sicily and Naples ; but
were we not at peace with the latter ? or what passible
interest had we in such a war ? By whom, klsa, he
should be glad to know, if the stwement could be
made with propriety, was the sum for the mainte•
nanee of the fifteen thousand Hanoverians now- in
Belgium to be paid, as he understood from the Chan.
cellor of the Exchequer that it was,not to fall ulti-
mately either on this country or on Hanover ? Ile
hoped it was to be paid by Holland, or what the
newspapers now called the kingdom. of Belgium.—
The Dutch, in his opinion,' ought not to receive too
much assistance from• this comfy. They should
rely na their own resources, and not be taught to
throw the burthen of their protection upon England.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
observed, in reply, that the additional article to the
Swedish treaty might certainly have been before the
House long ago, and he could only ascribe its non.
appearance to some oversight. The substance of it,
however, as well as the substance of the supplementary
treaty of Chaumont, was stated to the House in the
last session As to Sicily, oar treaty with that Go.
vernment went on totally different principles from
those which intitienced cur engagements with the
continental powers. The King of Sicily had lost Na-
ples through his adherence to our alliance, and we had
heace been led, not only to maintain a large farce in
that island, but also to subsidize the Government.—
The treaty of 1809 v. ith that power WAS made to con-
tinue during the war in which it was engaged with
Naples; and as that war still subsisted, the Sicilian
Government still considered ittell entitled to some
subsidiary assistance till an arrangement was made.
Naples had signed no more than an armistice with this
country.—Mr. PONSONBY explained.
Mr. WHLTJ3READ expressed his satisfacti6n,
that the subject now before the House had produced
the discussion which had taken place, because the
country must necessarily contribute with greater
cheerfulness when they saw that burthens imposed on
them underwent the scrutiny-of that House. Many
relevant and important topics had been introduced,
and few could be more so than the subject of the au-
dit of public accounts. To that, however, be would
not now advert. He wished to call the attention of
the Committee to one consideration, with respect tO
which the Right )-Ton. Gentleman had, in his opinion,
furnished very insufficient information. He meant
with respect to the King of Naples. (Some rurlarize
ow: here indicated.) He meant not the King of Sicily,
as it seemed to be supposed ; but, eo moraine, the King
of Naples. Would not the Committee be surpriied to
learn that at the very time when we were subsidizing
the Government of Sicily to enable it to carry on War
lagainst the Government of Naples, we had already
loitered into engagements with the latter. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had stated, that Austria was
the only European power which had concluded a
peace with Naples. He might have added, that this
treaty was a treaty of peace and alliance ; and that
Iwe were moreover pledged by our Minister to the
Neapolitan Government, that if the King of Sicily
should refuse to accept indemnities for his Neapolitan
dominions, the treaty between him and this country
should be at an end (hear, hear.) Thi she knew to be
correct ; he bad it upon authority in which he placed
the fullest confidence. We were thus paying Sicily
with one hand to carry on war against Naples, whilst
with the other we *ere signing an engagement to
compel Sicily to abandon that war (hear, hew, hrar.)
All these things were well understood on the Conti-
nent, although withheld by Ministers from the House
of Commons. [Here the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer signified dissent.] It the Right Honourable
Gentleman was. unacquainted with these circum-
stances. he innst.lament the want of confidential com-
munication among Migisters themselves. Tile tn.

. .
cnnistalces were ttndoubteelly strange, tut 'diet; 'ere
nevertheless true. What was the original principle
out of which•our relations with Sicily had Arian ? It
w.ss the political security of Europe; and it was in
consideration of its tidelityand adhei ence to its engao:-
me:its with ibis country, that we had guaranty ed to
the Crown of Sicily the security Of its mint dominions.
He would not then stop to unveil the mystery that
hung over the history of the protection *Marin were
bound to afford to the Royal Family of that kieni.
—One member of it, the Queen herself, seas known
to have been expelled, and to-haft die/ An to.ile
in a foreign land. All these thisigs, however requnod
explanation ; and if the !debt Honourable Gentle.
man was incapable of furnishing it, he regrotted that
he should know so Buie of the secrets el hie cola
leagues. He conceived, too,that the Comm:item:ea
to have been informed as to the 'nature of our en--
gagements with Belgium,—lebether it was truly sus.
eel, that the repair and re.establishment of the for-
tresses in that country would cost the sum of tin avl.
lions ; and if so, v.hether they tette to be tepatrcd. at
our exp,:nse? The Right Honeutablt Gentleman lied
thought proper to treat the allusion to Hanover as a
matter of mere indifference. The change in the feria
of its Government was undoubtedly so, if discenaect.
ed wits the circumstances that attended it. The
Right Honourable Gentleman said, there had henna*
universal call among the people of Hanover foe a
king. To this he had added, by way of j .!le, and is.
successful as it was; he 'had appeared as fond of it as
a hen with one chickens that there could be no Elec-
tor wherethe.lunctnt of selecting had ceased. How-
ever ibis might be; he, could mention :erne places
where there were elected Without any electors.—(if
laugh.) The Riglir Honourable Gentleman so seldoot
condestendet to joke, that he weld not, however se-
rious the subject, refrain from stopping one moment
to notice this anomaly in his proceedings. , ;the tree
cause of the transformation of Hanoves into a kiag-
dom he apprehended was, that all the other German
Princes having got new dignities, did not think fir to
lay them down, and so persuaded the Hanoverian
Court to follow . their example. It reminded him. of
the table of an animal, who, proposed is: an ageolbly
that they should all cut off thsir, tails, when it was
discovered upon enquiry that the proposer was the
only animal without °le. Mut was it not a matter of
serious consideration, if HAllovet, by gaining new ter.
ritory and aggrandisement.shoold be yet nate likely
than before-to lead this coantry into continental em.
bartassments.—( Hear, hear.) He s.bould remain sa-
tistied if he saw but the sligntest prospCet heldotit of
' the money being ever repaid ; hilt otherwise he illil:t
assume it as granted that it-was gone for evet:s Tde
Right Honourable, Gentleman had at length .b• gun
to talk of America, as if we were engaged m a frielist-
ful contest. Stich as it was, however, we were fairly
in it, and the battle must be fought as it bekame the
character of this ?ountry to fight herbitdes. But at
such a time as this, and (Us such net-occasion, was it
becoming in Ministers to withhold inspoetan; intelli-
gence upon the subject of .that contest ? He did un-
derstand that they had been fortreight hours in pos-
session of dipafches front Sir Creole Prevost,
and *that the retreat from. Plattsburgh- has. lien
attended in one- point of view with a very ..serinos-dis.
aster, although there had been no eugegemenr. kle
had no dispesitioa to blame. ellicers before enquiry,
and still less beiore their own rtncialaceotrals. were
received. The accounts were noiie reeeiied; and' why,
therefore, Were they ctucealed ? • -114ritel-liteisiutrr.
toed that Sir George l'revdet croliesi the fentdiert
with 12,000 men ; that, after- the failure of the: enter-
prise, he marched in two days Over a-C .untry ellich
bid 'occupied six in his advance 4, thit he lost in diet
short time 2600 men by deiertion ; and that these
men were not militia, but Wellingtonians, •distin-
guished by that appellation, as having gained s:
:nu zli honour in the Peninsular war. If this was not
the fact, he should be Nippy tee hear steontradictiori.
It wait furthe'r represented to Mil', that the minds et
the people of Canada were in a state of inflammation,
and that there was one general perseasidn, that Eke m-
eal of Sir George krevast ,was indispensably .ptces-
rhiry to their safety.. 'lle apprehended, therefore, tot
this American war was likely to be a fit sequel, to
that which was just concluded, in point of expenie;.
and it was not too much toisk, thirerOre, for all die
information in the power of Ministers to comlnudi-
cate. Now that, by . a memorable change of events,
Peat power,,which.had,alone remained neutral, whilst
every ether power was belligerent, and had now be-
come belligerent, whilstevery other poWer was nen-
tral in the contest ;* he trusted-that the same Conduct
wllichle.land observed towards America in her neu.
tral;ty, would be criairstaiped tower-Is
,the other States
of EuroFie,. now that they had assumed the same
Cheraittrr. • -•• i'
o The CHANCELLOR of- tie-EXCHEQUER.
observed, that the Hon. Gentleman appeased to con•
cider himself IQ n ucla better informed than himself of
political occurrences, ihat be 40Uld hardly think it
necessary to reply to the' questions put by hid'.--
Whether the eiiiiimitiit&s stated with respect to the
relations between .thiterountee and N'stples were Mr.
reedy stated or Dort.' he: hilt it• his duty to abstain
from disclosing. ,As tp tile dispatch from Sir George
Prevost, as mych would be pablishedfroan them to•
morrow as was coniistent se Oldie delicacy due to die
Situation of the cornmanding oricert ifear, IYar.'
Mr. PONSONBY.-“• Bure•ly it theacoonats st.e.:t
to have been• received bye my Hon. Friend are tali •.
it is easy to say titcy are f.alse. It cannot ha invr.-
per to relieve thi prhlic anxiety. under such circum-
stances. To Say e.lit'llier 2000 men lure dese:l.l
or not call betray no seitet. (Year, hear.) I win'
the liberty of putting a question to the Right 1-1' •
Gentleman. I heard.witbin the last few liuurt, t! •:
the army under General Drummond had been LL : ~, .:
to abandon the siege of Fort Erie with diw.:,...
the most disastrous toss ;' is this the case or is a
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIiEi.
—" With respect to the desettion asserted t ..:. • •
taken place on the retreat of the army five: in . •
burg, the fact is not mentioned in Sir Ge..:,, i•:"
rost'l dispatches ; it nvey be inferred, there:, re, 1 • '
the fact is not so. As to the report of the TO ,t ',
General Drummond hom before Post Elie. • '1 '
the retteat goes, it is true ; but the statement Li - "
estrous loss and disgrace is not correct."
The Committees of Supply and Ways at,'. v,' '
were then fixed for Monday. and the House .1•;; '•
ned at Nine o'Cloek. _

_ - ;

LONDON ibritted Inas Km? inciTirr.c.,
ity L
poltstied time, ad at as Mac yairl Temple kar.