Star.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

Oa Ole motion of the CHANCELLOR of the El
c iiEQLE It that the Order of the 1)47 be read for the
kiause g into a Cn .113 mittec of Supply,

Sir )1 AT MEW WHITE RIDLEY wished to
ko-;a: it it was the intention of his Majesty's Minis-
ters to continue still the same number of Lords of
the Athniralty? He had a motion to submit on a fu-
ture ...ay on that subject.
Mr. IIEiINAL sa►d, that the salaries of the Lords
of :Le Ad:niralty might to be reduced. He wished to
know what plan way to be proposed with regard to
the redact;on of those salaries?
Tl.e CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said
that it was the intention, with respect to the inferior
Officers, to form a fund by a Bill for the reduction
of their salaries. With respect to the superior Offi-
cers, it was proposed to make a reduction of 10 per
cent. on their salarie,.

Mr. HUME said, that the House was to be called
en to vote away 1.781.000/. It was usual for the
House to assent to those votes as soon as proposed,
without any inquiry into the manner in which the
money had been expended. No objection was ever
made to those votes until the last year. The Noble
Marquis had stated, that we had come to that period
in which we were enabled to make considerable re-
ductions in our establishments. Those establishments
were not by any means so low as they ought to be.
The aggrega:e amount of reduction which he stated
might be made wa. three millions and a half. But
so far was the Noble Nlarquis from making reduc-
tions in the expenditure, that it was rather increased.
He would then call on the House not to give credit
to the st.rements which might be made from the
ether 'lse. but attend to facts alone, and to nothing
else—(Hear).—ln the year 1817 the Noble Marquis
had fixed the wear and tear of the Navy at 1.556 0001.
The House was to expect rather a reduction of that
turn. When they consi.iered the reduction in the
;rice of provisions—when they con,idered the reduc-
tion in the prices of ordnance, they were to indulge
La anticipations that the sum fixed in 1817 would not
to co:air...el The House w.arld recollect,when the
£:•st vote of 1,781,0001. should be proposed to them,
that the Finance Committee had thought 1.556,0001.
sulli.ient—(llear, hear).—lnstead of making a re-
ductioi. from that sum, as might be supposed. the
• 3te in the sixth year of peace was to exceed the vote
tar similar purposes in the first year 01 peace by
:ler rl y 233,0001.—( Mar, hear).—What he would
inaist on was, that that House should know the spe-
cific and particular purposes for which the vote
' Was required. It was impossible to allow the vote
to pass without knowing every item contained in the
gross sum. In the year 1819 they had to provide
tor 19,000 men, including seamen and marines; of
tf•e former there were 13,000, and 6,090 marines.-
1a the last ) ear they had 22,000, and in the pre-
scut year they were to provide for 21,000, which
was less by 1,009 than they had in the last year,
and more by 2,000 than they had in 1819—(Hear).
Ti:e Hon. Gentleman then went through the several
ictirs of which the vote consisted, and contended
fiat the House could not accede to the vote, without
trst knowing the intended application of every part
ti it. Ile had drawn up a motion for additional re-
turns of E:timates. The Finance Committee re-
cuired those returns, and he then called on the House
to insist on them before they would grant one shilling
of the public money. The charge upon the Staff of
the Navy last year, was 31.0,6661. on which they were
prevented from taking the sense of the House, be-
cause they had not the Returns before them. What
could be the season of withholding
.from the house
the particular account of the Staff of the Navy and
Marines ? Why were not they submitted to the
House, as well as the accounts of the Staff of the
Army, unless there was something in the former
v:hich it was thought necessary to conceal from the
House? There were, in fact, among those accounts,
enormous sinecure places, amounting to eighteen or
twenty guineas a-day. He wished the House to know
the actual charge, and the particular items, that they
might object to those sinecure places, and other large
and unnecessary expenses. The next charge was
12,068/. for Barracks. That was a large sum ; but
he could not conceive what occasion they had for
Marine Barracks, which required an expense of more
than 1.20101. Every charge only tended to shew the
treater necessity for the production of the accounts.
I here was another charge for Contingencies, which
•aracsated to 12,7281. and no satisfaction was to be

gives OM. as ter the apprseitiOn Of tbdie
sums. The PinanciCornntittee were sorpti'sed at the
manner in which. item Estimates were laid before
Lb, Hotta.. -The fact was, that Ministers might
Charge what they pleased ; and it was to guaid
against that he would have the Returns before the
House. The Inspector-General's office cost USW.
Under those circumstances it was impossible for the
Members of that House to do -their duty without
knowing, the amount of the whole Navy expenses, as
well as every particular sum. The expense of the
*bole active establishment amounted to 900,0001.;
whereas the country lost nearly six millions and a half
by the civiltffices. It was with a view to knOw how
all this money was applied that he wished to submit
his motion.' The charges for the present year should
have been at least half what they had been in other
years. -The charge for provisions ought to be less by
half, on account of the great fall in the prices of beef,
pork, and butter. It was no answer to say that the
fall of provisions in this country could sot make any
difference in respect of those on foreign stations.—
Provisions had also fallen one-half in price in foreign
countries; and if not, they could be sent from this
country. They had transports, for which they paid.
and in which provisions might be conveyed; and for
that reason there should be no alteration in the charge
for provisions in respect of foreign stations. The Hon.
Member then commented on the monthly allowance
for the wear and tear, &c. and said the reduction was
not sufficient. If there was nothing wrong in the ac-
counts for which he was going to move, why should
they not be produced ? In fact, the very concealment
of those accounts by-Ministers was calculated to excite
suspicion that there was something wrong in them.
lie NV AS resolved to oppose the grant ; and, if the
House would support him, he would be content to
remain there until ten o'clock in the morning, before
he would vote away one single That was
the time, if ever, in which the mismanagement of the
public money called for an examination. That was
the tim- in which the miscalculations of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer called for an examination—
' (Ifeer, hetr).=He would repeat that the Right Hon.
Gentleman had mad_ a mistake in his calculations.
He bad promised a saving of £4,000 000. but he was
performing but a saving of £2.600,000—( Hear, hear).
He agreed in the opinion of the Finance Committee,
that the ships in ordinary ought to be kept in good
condition, and they were better then than they had
ever been: Seventeen millions had been laid out since
the year 1816. in building and repairing ship.. He
complained that no reductions were made to satisfy
the Public. In these times the naval service was no
more than pleasure parties. They had no foreign
wars, no sieges, no blockades, no chaces, no more
than they had in 1792. Why then shoal,' the charges
for naval ordnance be doubled ? He believed the
whole of those establishments were kept up at Sheer-
ness, for the benefit of the electors of Qtreenborough.
The establishments were kept on, and the persons in
office had nothing to do. It became the e tire occu-
pation of the clerks to project pleasure parties. lie
was not ignorant of the manner in which they spent
their time, and be would probably have occasion to
allude to it at another time. The charge for the esta-
blishment there was L.:IS,SM The Finance Com-
mittee objected to the employment of all ordnance
craft. They stated, that all the powder kept for some
months in these floating magazines became unfit for
use ; yet there was an establishment of 14 kept up in
spite of their Report. So far from complying with
the Report, six yes els mere hired from the Corpora-
tion of Queenborough, but were since discharged.—
He would pledge himself to prove that they were
not employed one day in a month while they were
paid. Some perhaps were les, favoured than others,
because their interest in the Borough was less. Be-
sides those. there mere nine boys employed, the ex-
pense of which might he estimated at one pound per
day for each. All those belonged to the freemen of
Queenborough. The whole expease of these nine boys
was 22851. half of which was estimated clear profit.
He would maintain that some of those lay for four
or five years at Woolwich, at a charge of 18s. per
day. He would repeat that he could not, under
those circumstances, vote for 81,000!. for the Ord-
nance Department of the Navy. The court' was
at the great expense of 12,000/. a year in manufactur-
ing gunpowder without any use for it, and which
could not be preserved. They had ammunition
enough for twenty years, and under such circum-
stances they should not go to expense. He could as-
sure the House that he was not a person to recom-
mend any injurious reductions of the Naval establish-
ment. He even regretted to see the Navy neglected
in comparison with the Army. The Military had
been the favourite establishment in this country, at the
exper.se of that Navy which led us to so much glory.
Ile was nut diposed to make any invidious compari-
sons, but if he had the power, he certainly would give
a preference to the Navy. He would not reduce the
lumber of our seamen to thirteen thousand. He ob-

jected more to the number of Marines, because they
belonged to the military, and he dreaded military
power. The lion. Gentleman cohcluded by moving
the following Resolution by way of Amendment:
" A return, in detail, of the manner in which the sum of
£393,755, estimated for wages, in 1822, is to be.ezpend?d, dis-
tinguishing the number of each rank of the Royal Marines, and
the pay of each class, and of the whole. Also, the number of
Officers of each rank, and of men, in the Navy, the amount of
charge for each class, and for the whole."
Mr.CROICEII and Sir ISAAC COFFIN rose together;
but Sir Isnac COFFIN giving way,
Mr. CltOKElt said he should not oppose any mo-
tion the object of which was to require information,
if the lion. Gentleman could satisfy him did Go,
vernment had refused any papers which were proper
to be communicated. He believed the papers in
question were the only ones refused out of the thou-
sands the Ilon. Gentleman had moved for. He would
shew that those papers were withheld on good
grounds, and that it was inconsistent with a proper
regard to the public safety to communicate them-1
(Hear, hear).—He would say, that fur the last seventy
ears in which the Navy Estimates were voted, this
was the first time those Returns were called for. In
all the fancies and imaginations of men—in all the
feelings of party, no one bad gone so far as to de-
mand the Returns whiCh the Hon. Member required.
He did not mean to say that because no inquiry was
ever made, no one should call for the Returns then;
but their ancestors and them,elves had wise reasons
for withholding those Returns, and. treating them
with peculiar delicacy. He would maintain that
the lion. Gentleman (Hr. flume) made extravagant

• • •
Mistake's ire tiagietele,
Wluttintrposw toold the non.
himself by Intit an inotkiry?
mended iniwar, it must be
An imair' into the state of
been demanded during- 70 years, es
its greatest expenditure.; and that proceeded from aa
obvious policy, that it might be dettimentall. to the
safety of the country if the stations to which they;'
might be appointed, their force, and number, were
previonsly known. The next class of expenditure
was the OrdinaryaritfExtraardinary Estimates ; and,'
in alluding to these, the Hon. Gentleman had in-'
eluded the building of ships in Englind and
.tlt
Dock-yards; bnt he would inform the Hon. Gentle-
man that these were distinct and separate heacs,.4
which he would see when they were laid before Par;
lament in detiiil, if the House should determine on
going into a Committee. It would be. unnecessary
for him to dilate on the great injury that would arise
to the country, if all the circumstances connected
with the fleet afloat were to be disclosed to the Public
in this country ; from that disclosure would result p
knowledge of our naval affairs in foreign countries,
which, even in peace, might be productive of the
greatest evil to the country ; but the Hon. Gentleman
would say how could a return of the Navy Estimates
betray the secrets of the fleet? The J-lon. Gentleman
must be well aware that, in that return, every cir
cumstance connected with the manageinent of the
Navy afloat should come oat, and, if not, he wouli
only refer him to arrlion. Gentleman near him. lle•
(Mr. Hume) had spoken of the prices paid for provi-
sioning and victualling the Navy; but he seemed to
have taken the standard of his prices from Leaden-
hall-market. Did he pretend to say that he under-
stood the, system of victualling the Navy, it he would
limo' to establish the same standard under every
circumstance it rnOlt be place.! in ? Did not the
Hon. Gentleman know that there was a great difference
in victualing on a foreign station and a home one,
and eve) a difference between every foreign one
He would again repeat. if a return of the Navy
Estimates be. made .every wo
uld
be the House
be obliged to mention its naval force, and publish
it to every foreign State—(Hear, hear, hear). The
Honourable Gentleman had said, that Navy accounts
were given in 1817 ; that gave him only an indivi-
dual case, and under particular circumstances—they
were given to a Select Committee. But was it be-
cause the liberality of Government had given them
oa one occasion, that they should now be given M
plaspectu every year, and the fleet not suffered to go
to sea until the country had known how it was to be
directed ? which would be the effect of acceding to
the Han. Gentleman's measure. He begged the at•
tention of the House to some observations which he
wished to make on what had !alien look the Hon.
Gentleman, regarding the wages, and wear and tear,
of the Navy. He had said, that since 1817, a sum of
17,000,0001. had been expended on the Navy, which
would be large enough to build all the ships in the
world ; but he (Mr. Croker) would at once give him
up all the Papers he asked for, if he would shew him
that seven million; had been expended, much less
seventeen millions. The Hon. Gentleman, in that
calculation, otwa have converted stones into wood;
he must have included the buildings at Sheerness, the
building of wharfs, and the Breakwater at Plymouth ;
which cost one million; yet all would scarcely amount
to seventeen millions. From the documents which
he held in his hand, he would read the sums voted
in each year, to shew his ('Jr. Hume s) accuracy ;
and he would take it as a favour from him to correct
him if wrong—(Hear, hear).

In 1817 . - - - £1,590,277
1818 - - - 1,150,000
1819 - - - 1,114,000
1820 - - - 1,142,000
1821 - - - 1,094,000

Total for five years £5,900,277
Mr. H 1; ME, in the two first items, begged leave to
correct the Hon. Member. The first was 1,760,2771.
the second 1.730,0001.
Mr. CROKElt—The Hon. Member must see how
widely incorrect his statement had been, and how far
short the expenditure had come of his 17,000,000.
His noble, to use a vulgar phrase, had now come to
ninepcnce? He tregged pardon of the House for
having digressed so much, but the Hon. Gentleman's
statement required some observation. He (Mr. Hume)
had come down to dictate to the House, and tell them
he would sit till ten in the morning to enlighten their
misinto! illation. He did not seem to understand
what was meant by wear and tear. lie said ships
lying in harbour ought not to suffer either—Plr.
Hoot No such thing'l.—lie said they had been
doing nothing but giving holiday parties, were indul-
ging in luxury, amusing themselves with balls and
dancing; but he (Mr. Cioker) would tell him there
was more active exertion, more wear and tear of
human labour, the last year in the channel, than had
been at any period during the war. A great number
of seamen were employed in cruizers, which was a
most laborious service, for the purpose of preventing
smuggling; and there could be no stronger proof of
the efficacy of that system, and of the active exertion
of the seamen, than the increase in our Revenue.—
For the purpose of giving more effect to that system,
the seamen had been divided into small ships, from
which proceeded more wear and tear than if they wet e
confined to large ones. He (Mr. Hume) had come
down, in the mass of his information, to inform the
House that 6,000 marines were employed in what
he had termed summer sailing ; but he seemed to
have forgotten his geography—did he not know
that we required a large force in the Mediterranean,
and another to protect our South American trade?
Did he not know that Cape Horn and the Cape of
Good Hope must be doubled—(hear) ;—and that a
strong force must also be kept on the coast of Africa
to prevent the Slave Trade? The Hon. Gendem'a'n
ought to. have described that service in other terms
than summer and yacht sailing. Now that the House
saw the tidicu:e of the thing he exposedr-(liear)-7-i4
would not wish to hear any more observatioqs on that
subject. lie would just remind him, that when he,
itt his speech, was apprized of the foreigi stations, he
threw it also overboard. He (Mr. Huttle).iviAted an
inquiry into the wages of seamen, becatise.tlle marines
were included. Whatever information.he wanted on
that sut-ject, he could have st hen he pleased ; he hid it
last year, and it was no more this.. He had told the*
that the entire pay of the marines aMou,nte4 ,t.
350,0001. which, deducted flints 600,0001. left duly
250,6001. to ray the seamen ; but he would tell tkem

'which did
~ay; and all
voted forahe
SUMS , , right; he
amid have hardly believed the tomcats; Of the
"Bon. Gentleman's caleulations-180.0001. the
real sum that should be dedicated. All dilimiS idiitstt
oiliihich were quite distinct charges. he had put toge.
ther, and deducted them from the pay of the fleet.
'He might, with as much reason, have deducted the
sum voted for the building of churches& or any "other
purpose. The Hon. Gentleman implored the House
to inquire into the Royal Marine Depattment, JseA•
cause the Paymaster had a salary of 27701. ; and he
'adduced that as an Instance why the, House should
inquire before voting the Estimates. That appeared
to be the strongest point he made, because that (ia.n
tleman was not at sea, but resided on land-aztffear).
'However, he was ready to discuss that subject when
'the House should go into a Committee. The, crown
ofthe Hon. Gentleman's merit had now approached ;
he said he would increase the Navy and lessen the
Marines. A different doctrine was held five years
ago ; at that time the House were of opinion thai the
number should be kept as high as possible. There .war
considerable difference between a soldier and a sea-
-IMan—one was obliged to give his service for life, but
'the other only for three years. If we were to add
..two thousand seamen, we should he obliged to take
them from the Marines, and thus be relinquishing a
service for life for one of thtee yestri. Ile has said
the pay of a seaman in 1792, was 44 is month, and
now it was 61.10 i. 6d. He might have gone further
back, and lie would have found it 'vas 44 a month
also in 1727 ; but the Noble Lord (Lord .AithOrr)
had candidly and fairly said that:the apparent
com-
parison was not the real one. If any GentJernan con-
sulted the Jonrnals of the House, and saw the sums
voted in 1792, he would be surprised to see the little
difference between them and those of this year. Be
would state a fact or two to guide them. In 1792 the
suns voted was1,800;0001. there were subsequent grants
of 805,0001. 131,0001. and 430,0001. which made 'a
total of 3,166;0001. for the Navy Estimates in the
year 1792. For this year they amounted to 3,310,000/.
which would considerably lessen that in the year
11792, if the price of provisions and the difference
between the tvio period's, were taken into account.—
The Hon. Gentleman had complained of the appoint-
ment of Naval Officers to be Colonels of Mat ines, but
he (Mr. Croker)- contended it was a bond of union
between the Army and Navy, and it was essential to
the honour and dignity of the service that his Majesty
should be enabled to reward meritorious Officers by
appointing them to honourable situations. He would
give the tlonse an opportunity of judging of the dis-
tinguished characters who filled those situations in.
the marines, by reading to them the names of the
Commanders since their institution—Admirals Lord
Forbes, Howe, Barry, Bridpnrt, and last, andlosig
may he continue so, Earl St. Vincent, most ennobled,
and raised to the Peerage, forming a bright galaxy,
which sheds a lustre on the country. He contended
it would be injurious to the Constitution if-they should
disclose the circumstances connected with the N'ivy•
which, in time of war, would enable the foe to dis-
cover all our naval movements. Our ancestors bad
alWays guarded' against it, and' he entreated the
'House, on the present occasion, not to-deviate from
the plan pursued for so many years—(The }lon. Gen.-
tleman sat down amidst loud applause.) • • -
Mr. BENNET gave the Hon. Gentleman who had
just*sat down much credit for fhe ingenious and de;-
terous speech he had made ; but the sarcasms which
he had thrown out upon his Friends, both in that
House and else% here, were quite uncalled for.; He
begged to tell the House,' 'that it was' no novelty to
the Constitution to accede to the measure of his Hon.
Friend. By the Report of the Committee'ihat h%:l
been made in 1818, the principle was acknowledge&
He would tell the Hon. Gentleman, that the principle
of the Constitution was violated by permitting Minis-
ters to apply the public money as they thought fit..l.
If his Hon. Friend's. Amendment was adopted, he
was conviticed the most beneficial results would flow
from if. . .

•
Mr. C R °HER said the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bennet)
had done him more credit .than he deserved, by attributing to .•
him any wit ; but the lion. Gentleman bad used the expression, -
•' the wit which he knew how to use here and elsewhere." Now
he (Mr. Croker) assured the Hon. Gentleman, on his honour
as a Gentlermin, that Out of that House he had never taken the
liberty to make the slightest allusion to the Hon. Gentleman or
• his Friends—(Hear).—The House then divided:
For going into the Committee - - - 144
For Mr. Hume's Amendment - - - - 54
Majority

On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, Mr. CAL-
CRAFT put a question to Ministers whether It was intended
to make any provision for insane officers?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER could not
give any specific answer to the question.
Mr. HUME then called the attention of the House to what
he conceived the present enormously high price of victualling
the Navy. What he wished for on all occasions of expenditure,
was to have a detail of the various items laid before the House ;
for otherwise it would be impossible for any man to understand
the accounts. The lion. Secretary had tal4.ed of the danger of
making our naval operations known to othei countries; but he
wished to ask what enemies were we at this time afraid ed=
and what inconvenience could arise from producing the hsfor-
motion which he sought for? He never asked to be informed
as to the stations which our Navy wai to occupy in distant
parts of the world—he merely asked to know the number of
Naval officers on the Staff, arid all the . answer given bias
be. the Honourable Secretary to the Admiralty was, that of
ailing him (Mr. Hume) a fisher of grievances, and a per.
son who did not know the difference between bjick and,
mortar. The best answer he could give ,to the observations'
which the Honourable Member delivered in his 'metapharkal
and bombastic style was, that the Honourable Member,
had in his hands, his (Mr. Hume's) documems on thc very
subject in question, but forgot his statement, in which he sheared
;that the Naval expenses since the year 1 tilt; were seventh*,
'millions. Here the Honourable Gentleman enumerated the
several expenses which had been incurred ,;ilt the several
Royal Dock-yards, and among these he said At would appear,
that a suns of 4,600,0001. had been expended merely in back and
mortar. On the Ureakwititer of plymouth about 1,700,0c01t
'had been expended, and it would require stilt more money to
finish it. After such great expenses as these, it was nit too,
much to expect that the expenditure of the preseSt year would.
'be reduced. lie was at a loss to cenicive wily,such camases
should be incurred for the weir and tear of Alps, aPhas k "'ea
determined to break up good shipi arid plaid sleet ones in their
stead. '{'hp, Hon: Gentleman 'talir..4
.ef his (Mr. Neese's) es
cemmending to pass Cape Voris in a small hey..,aud bavieg for.,
got his knowledge of geography; apse than
ati attempt to draw the attention of the Etonse Cron) the rasilstate
of the facts. He (Mr. ibmieTwantid nothing but an account
Saf the' Flag and Staff OfiteerA Ind 10 kW, this row why the
Aravy *air so mitib 'hater at this
expense of victaalfirt,g
time than some years ago, althowgh provisions were one-11.tle
cheaper? The object of his motion was to get a correct account
of the expenditure; be asked for no more thin this infoinutivn

• _
till . oat.
__ ptyx in his calc
oforjetatietniii) propose to to 'is Hlt hid isicluded avast* birraek
? If it were never de- clothes, shoes, meat,' end ethei expentis, wh
less ipppottane its peace lot properly come Uncle,. the head of pay,
the Rest afloat' had not these he deducted lions the wages Crone Voted
rears; even at the.time of Nairy ; and if these sums had not come out ri
Vis • s.n.b.Loagaai e..rirn n 1.1 k... 1111 L . _