Star.
London, England, 1802-12-22 00:00:00

PARLIAMENTARr PROCEEDINGS.

ROUSE OF LORDS, TUESDAY, DEC. 2i.
Mr. Serjcant Belt appeared at the Bar in behalf of the Pal•
dollen againit the Godmanchelter Bill. Mr. Beft raid, that he
was initcucled to Rate, that his clients wined that the pro-
ceedings on the Bill be put off, becaufe they had not yet had
time to put their Petition into a Cape fit for him to Rate to
their Lordihips; and that if it were poftponed to a diftant day,
it could have no prejudicial circa upon the Bill, as the opera-
tions under the Bill could not be commenced for tome months.
Paid, the foie fadt that be was furnillsed with, as one of the
main grounds of the Petitioners' application, was, that the lands
about Godmanchefter arc at certain times of the year over-
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flowed with water, and that it had been dual at fuch periods to
turn the cattle on to the Balks to feed, which they could not
avail themfelves of if the Bill paired, and the propofed inclofure
took place.
The Bill was read a"fecond time, and ordered to be commit-
ted. An order was alfo made, that the Petitioners be permit-
ted to be heard by their Counfel, in the Committee.
NAVY COMMISSIONIES' ABUSE BILL.
Upon the motion that this Bill be read a fecond
time,

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Lord PELHAM rote, and lamented extremely that
the Noble Earl who prefided at the Admiralty
Board was prevented by ill health from attending
his duty in that Houfe. Had that not been the
cafe, their Lordfhips would doubtlefs have heard
from the Noble Earl the grounds and reafons which.,
prompted his mind and made him think Arai .at
Bill abfolutely neceflary, and why the abufes al.
ledged to exifi in the Navy, and thofe conneded
with it, could not be fufficiently corrected under the
powers already veiled in the Admiralty and Navy
Boards. Lord Pelham Paid, he mull confcfs that,
generally (peaking, he entertained great jealoufy
of every Bill of that nature. He did not admire
the delegating extraordinary powers to any Com 7
miffioners'whatever. Repofing, however, full con-
fidence in the Noble Earl at the head of the Ad-
miralty, and repofing, allo, confiderable confidence
in the Houfe of Commons, and believing that they
had full.), examined and difeuffed the fubjed, and
would not have paired the Bill, if they bad not
been fatisfied that the abufes in queftion could not
be got at, and effectually corrected without it, bt
was ready in this inftance to wave his objedion,
and to give his vote for the (mind reading of the
Bill ; but he begged the Houfe to hold in mind,
that it was upon thefe fpecial grounds, and thefe
only, that he was induced to (import the Bill.
Lord NELSON followed Lord Pelham, and Paid,
that great Modes citified in the Navy he and every
'man of his profeffion knew but too well. Moft-
efpecially were abufes pradifed by the prize agents,
to the great injury of the poor feamen in general,
as well as to that of their commanders and officers
in general. Men of his profeffion always found
great difficulty and delay in getting their prize
money out of the hands of the prize agents, and
often, did not get it at all. He wts fure that the
Legiflature and the people of this country were
far from meaning that full jufliee fhould not be
done to every Britifh tar,' and were as anxious that
the poor fea-boy, that walked the Rreet fhould re--
ceive It* protection, as well as the Firft Lord of the
'Admiralty, or the highea officer in the twice,

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F

In. refpea to prize agents either living or dying ,
abroad, when they had aaed for a' capital prize,
e ttoublOand expence of getting the prize money
was inCorkeivable. The capital, or Admiral of a
fleet, might, indeed, find 'means, to obtain their
right, but the poor feaman, who Might have fhed
his blood in making the capture, had not a chance
of being able to get his money. Having thus efta-
blifhed the fad that great Ades did exift, and 'were
in an enormous extent praEtifed by feveral of the
agents, his Lordfhip proceeded to confider the Bill
as giving great and extenfive powers, but they ,
were powers, he laid, without which the abufes in
queftion could not be effeetually correeted, and the
hands in which they were to be entrufted were fuel)
as he was confident were not likely to abufe them
themfelves, or fuffer others to abufe them. In the
difcuffion that it had undergone in the other Houfe,
every part of the Bill had been taken into full con-
fideration, and had been fcrupuloufly examined.
One ground had prefented itfelf to his mind, in
which he thought, in the firft view of it, great ob•
, jeCtion might be taken, and that was, the power
of calling for merchants' books, and by that means
getting at all their concerns and conneCtions, and
not only their own concerns, but thofe of other
perfons. Now, as the credit of a merchant was of
the utmoft value and importance, ,more precious
even• than his wealth, lie felt. fome appvlicnflons
left that credit might, under the operations of the
prefent Bill, fuffer material injury ; but after that
matter had been difcuired and openly brought for-
ward, and no merchant that he had heard of made
the flighteft obje9ion to the Bill on that account,
his apprehenfions fubfided. Indeed the liberality
of the individuals who had been nominated Corn-
miflloners, was too well known not to give every
man a full confidence, that they would not pulh
the powers with which they were entrn fled too far,
but would conduft their inquiries with delicacy
and caution, and always confider how ficred a
merchant's charaCter was, and that it was not in-
' tended that they fhould fuffer their curiofity to in-
duce them to carry their inveftigation of their books,
further than the neceffity of knowing what their
tranfaCtions with Government actually required.
His Lordfhip having laid great fires on the feveral
points here flared, faid he fhould fupport the Bill.

The LORD CHANCULLOK left the Wooflack, and
(poke at fome length upon the jealoufy he enter-
tained of every bill that gave new and unufttal
powers to any fet of Commiffioners for any given
purpofe. He knew that there bad been Commit-
fioners of Public Accounts and Commiffioners on
other grounds, from whole diligence and ability
beneficial effeets had refulted to the public, but
even the recollection of that circumflance did not
difarm his caution or calm his anxiety in refped
to the prefent Bill, or convince him that the autho-
rifing Commiffioners to exercife powers vetted in
them by it, was the only, or the molt effectual
means of remedying the evils complained of.—
The whale of this Bill refted upon the afl'ertion of
a fiat, to be found in the preamble of it, viz. that
certain abufes, frauds, and irregularities prevailed
in the Navy, which called for correCtion, and the
Noble Lord near him, who had fpoken, as might
have been expeCted from him, in behalf of the Bri-
tifh kamen, and with that proportion of zeal and
energy confonant to his elevated and diftingnifh-
ed charaCter, had laid great firth on the abufes
praCtifed by prize agents in particular. Every
man who wiflied well to his country's honour and
intereft, mull molt undoubtedly feel anxious that
chafe failors who fought our battles thould, with-
out delay, vexation, or difficulty, receive the due
reward of their valour ; but potlibly that defirable
°bled would have been better obtained, if a fepa-
rate and dilliat Commiffion had been authorifed
by a bill, for the tingle purpofe of inquiring into
the abufes of prize agents. The fait meant to be
defcribed in the affertion which he had Hated in
the preamble of the bill might, by one let of men,
be termed " an abufe ;" by another " a fraud ;"
and by a third " an irregularity." Would it not,
therefore, be a more plain and intelligible thing to
have divided each of thefe, and inilead of ineitnt-
ins Commiffioners to inquire into mixed and com-
plicated objects, have iffued different Commiffions
applicable to each of the three heads afferted in
the preamble of the bill to exit? His Lordfhip
laid, one main confideration to be guarded and fe-
cured to the fubjed under the powers granted to
Commiffioners of any fort was, that the full bene •
fit, not only of •the Law -of England, but of the
effential principle on which the exitience of that
law Iblely.depended, was, that no man, whatever
had been his practice, fhould be called upon to cri-
minate himfelf, or led to fay any thing that had
the appearance even of eliminating himfelf.—
'Mete were abufes and frauds of various forts,
which, according to the exifting laws, were confti-
tined and punifhable as rnifdemeanours, as aggra-
vated mildemeanours, and fome even amounted
to felony itfelf; but fill let a man's degree of
guilt be what it might, the liberal and humane
(pint of the Law and the Conititution would not
permit that man to be deemed to be criminal till he
had been duly .convided of crime by the teftimony
of unquellionable rwitneires, or by his own volun-
tary ccmfeffion. Being. himfelf a lawyer, he mutt
let his mind watch vigilantly over the benefits
and advantages refulting and meant to be extend•
ed to every Britifis fubjed, from the important
principle of Law, which he bad Jul obferved, Geld
therefore too much pains could not be taken by
every one of their Lordfhips, when they were called
upon to pafs a bill giving extraordinary powers of
examining books and perfons, as to the tranfac-
tions of perfons, to CommiCfioners, to guard againtl
the exercife of thole powers being fo enforced as
to enclatler the freedom and fecurity whiCh the
Conftitution intended he fhnuld enjoy. His Lord
(hip Aid he had not made thefe obfervations with
a view to prevent the bill from going to a Com.
mittec, or by voting again( the fecond reading,
which was the queflion then before the Houle. He
certainly withed the bill to go to the-Committee,
but he anxioufly hoped to awaken their Lordihips'
attention to the mealure, to convince them that it
was a bill of very great importance, and that they
could not ton minutely examine and weigh every
part of it. Poffibly the bill ought to hand as it
was, and no% a wird load be arkkapidad,