Star.
London, England, 1830-02-20 00:00:00

• .

there were but fifty-eight clerks in this office. It would be read.
Leted how goat a reduction had antecedently taken place In their
number, which, at the time the reduction commenced, amounted to
173. In this office so few were the appointments which took place
during the time of his predecessor, that not more than five or six wan
appointed by the noble lord, and since he came into office himself he
had not made even a single appointment. There had been also de-
ductions on the head of educating the young officers of the army.
which now brought the whole of the expenditure on that head
within the moderate sum of 7,656—the governor of the Military
College, whose salary had been fifteen hundred pounds
a year, had accepted one thousand a-year, instead of the larger
salary which he enjoyed for years. The next saving effected was
under the head' of army pay of general officers, the expense of
which was 126.00111. on which a saving of 10,0001. had been
effected. The full-pay, of retired officers was taken for this
year at 104,0001. on which also a reduction of five thousand
and odd pounds had been made in the present year's esti-
mate. The half-pay and military allowances of officers was
for this year 720,8591. on which head, therefore, the house
would see a reduction of expense had taken place to the
amount of 18,177/ The foreign half-pay was estimated at
94,9001. and here also a saving had been • contemplated of
2.3701. The saving, he believed, on the whole of these items,would
be found to amount to 35,5491. The number of officers on half-
pay W' • hit was supposed would have been reduced, he had last
year promised would be 140; but, in point of fact, he found that
they had amounted to 210 officers. The saving on this item would
therefore be atleast 15,0001. This, with the savings in other items
in the half-pay department, it was true, would apparently seem to
give a total of somewhere about 18,000/ but the whole amount on
these heads—and it would be accounted for from various causes why
it was apparently only 18,0001—was really equivalent to 37,0001.
How could it then be said, as the honourable member for Mon-
trose had asserted, that there was no material saving on the
head of half-pay ? Great praise Was•due to the conduct of the Com.
enander-in-Chief for the arrangements which he had made to prevent
the discharge of effective men from the service of the army. The best
results were to be expected from the course which he pursued in that
respect. It had already effected a reduction of 1,200 men front the
pension list. It was to be observed, that there was one great defect
in the arrangement of 1806. By Mr. Windham's regulation,
a man was entitled to a discharge and a pension for life often in cones.
(menet. of slight disabilities or injuries, and without any regard to
length of service. The result was, that the pension list was incumbered
with persons who laboured under slight and often temporary disabili-
ties, whose average of service did not amount to four years, and whose
ages did not exceed 21. Under these circumstances, he felt it his duty
to recommend that no person should be entitled to a pension for'
life, who had served his Majesty under 14 years, unless for wounds
received in the service. He hoped that, under this regulation, the
pension list would fall, Instead of increasing yearly as it had done,
and would atlength become as low as it was in 1817. The next
item to which he should call the attention of the committee was that
of the widows' pensions, amounting to 145,2671. being an increase
beyond the estimate of last year of 1,85 W. There were regulations
in contemplation for placing those pensions on the saute footing with
the naval peesions; in that case, no pension would be allowed to any
widow whose husband had served under ten years, or had not been
killed in the service. The committee would find on the face of
those estimates that Mr. FIIIICCiS Moore, who was on a retired al-
lowance of 1,8001. a-year as receiver-general, had voluntarily relin.
quielica 100 i. alear to the public service—(luxe.) He could in-
form the Committee that it was done In um most unostentatious
manner. Sir. Moore stated that, as lie lived out of this country,and
therefore did not contribute any thing to its exigencies, he felt
himself bound to relinquish so much of his pension. As he (Sir
H. Ilardinge) was present when Sir John Moore, the gallant
brother of this gentleman, had received his last wound, and was a
witness to the almost superhuman finunas with which he met his
far, he could not help observing that Mr. Moore, though filling
a less conspicuous situation, partook largely of the heroism
for which his relative was distinguished. The Committee
would appreciate the gift still more when they understood that it
came from a gentleman possessed of a very moderate fortune ; and
that Lieutenant-Colonel Moore, a gallant friend of his, the son of
this gentleman, had acquiesced in this arrangement, to his own ma.
neest disadvantage having but a small fortune besides his pay.—
(Hear, bear.) The expence of the whole amount of force was
6.123,1121.75. 4d. being the lowest estimate for the last twenty-five
years. The reduction in the ordnance of the army was 100,0001
lower than in 1822. In the distribution of the force it was
gratifying to be able to state that, though a year had not
elapsed since the passing of the Catholic Relief Bil, his
majesty's government were enabled to withdraw 3,000 men
from that country, which made a saving of 50,0001. in Ireland
alone. Ile hoped that the reign of peace and justice in Ireland
would present the necessity of keeping up a large military establish-
ment in that country. As the amount Of farce was materially
affected by the consideration of the reliefs which were required in the
various colonies of this country, it was right that they should be
taken into consideration. It was impossible, with a smaller force
titan the present, to afford the usual relief, which was ten years
abroad and four at home. During the last ten years we have only
sent out Illty-two battalions instead of seventy-four, which were re-
quired by the usual practice. The honourable member for Car-
newun had observed that the guards might be reduced on the
ditierent Stations, which was a fair way enough of looking at the
question. But, when he told the committee that the Guards
were the sante now as they had been in the reign of Charles 11.,
anti in the year 1792, they would probably agree with hint
that there was not much opportunity for reduction in that
qtiarter. He also observed that the cavalry might be reduced.
To that he should observe, that a reduction of 454 men had been
made already ; and with respect to second majors of cavalry, the
Lunimander-in.Chief had already decided that, as vacancies
tell in they should not be filled up. if, then, It appeared
that the number of battalions at home was not too great to
supply the necessary relief abroad, the next question was,
+cheater the garrisons abroad were too numerous. Upon this
pteet it was in evidence before the finance committee, that
rtes garrisons were not more numerous than in 1792, though
Si. Domingo Insti since become an independent power, and
was within 21 hours' sail of some of our West India possessions,
ish!ch were also, he might say, in the neighbourhood of some great.
reimblics. The garrisons in thy West Indira were, in fact, smaller
at the present day, as were also those we possessed: on the Conti-
nee: of America. With but une solitary exception, that of New
Saute Wales, the garrisons of the old colonies were lower. If the
garrisons of the old colonies were leas, it did not seem unfair to
assume that the garrisons of the new colonies were nut too great.
'tut whole force was not within six thousand men of what it had
lisen iti 11122 , but it should be remembered that that was an ex-
periment which had failed. The honourable member for Aber-
iteeit h.cd expressed some surprise that the militia force had
not experieno.d a greater diminution. But the honourable
gent. was mistaken. it he thought that government had ever con-
templuted tee putting down of that constitutional establishment.—
Wee I the lion. member fur Limerick (Mr. S. Rice) was in office, he
tied not expressed any wish to that effect, but bad merely said that
many of the Staff were metes*, and that Staff had been reduced.
(Hear, hear.) But, though tee militia was not put down, nor hie
tended to be put down, it was brought back to what it had been
during the peace of Annetta. lie did not know what the in.
ten. ions of the honourable member for Limerick were, but as the
government had received the yeomanry in its present state, he
concluded that it was the intention of the former government
to have kept it on the same footing. Still there was a reductioa of
tea per can. eff e•ed in that corps ; and if it was found, upon ex-
perience, that any further reduction could be made, he was confident
chat his noble fvend who presided over die department would be
anxious to make it. We have now passed the maximum of charge
on the duct) weight, and might look forward with confidence to a
peteces.ive re:lee:ion, under the armngemente which had been made.
eeuninti,e be expenditure of the army. The hon. membei
eluded his spe,en by moving the first resolution—that 2,110,278';
les. be granted to his majesty to defray the theme of 88,848 men,
constituting the landforoes or Great Britain for the year 11XIM
Colonel DAVIES said that he approached the subject now before
tie committee with great anxiety and embarrassment, in comic;
quail of its great importance. By toe, decision of that mien it
seula be seen whether Parliament was realty alive to the shuatten of
the country—wnether it was determined to act up re its mofesetens,
as recorded out the journals of that house, or to abandon every
eternise of economy in their 'Resent embarrasemeres If they
should unfortunately determine to destroy all the holm *kith their
promises had excited, who would. take upon hies if to answer
fur the consequences, in the agitated esnerof dos public mind ? When
he looked at the estimates now before them, he mould mestere that
a Was with feelings of deep regeet and diseasidection. Alan all
the promises of the ministers. he found that the public was only to
experience a saving of 2140004 in this important branch of the
public service.—[ There was much confusion- in the house during
the commeneement'of the honourable metuber's speech, and ieseemed
to increase as he advanced, amidst cries of e‘ Order, .order.," and
liar, hat.")
Mr. HUME rose to order. If the committee would. not Ham• to
Iris I •
. /OW. f • d, it was his dettemination to move that they 'herald
'erect progress, and ask leave to sit again, 'when they' su%ht be
more disposed to allow honourable members to do their. duty to the
(moo".
Colonel D.l N' 1 E'S thanked Minium; 'friend fee dor biro,
and hoped that, on a question otench. hypostases:lr asetnitste•
would conderand to afford him their. attention. The.gatateareue
meat to the mouthy a minivan, whatever redueden was tetlLul
i
Ii
I was the necemity of supporting the rank of Ghost Basile I
thogeneral scale of Eutope. But was it the fact that the stood: um
high as they were anxious to represent ? On des cootrary, he,
believed that never since- thirteens-4 Ilharlber thihowlid. did Mel
character of England stand so low as atiwommes When we looked
to the east, we saw our " ancient ally," as Turkey had been called,

inosonletl. to .
ur Fngrand
Ell 4 X hibd

currrd with

',40111106 .."‘lOl4l- • •

Mr. HOBHOUSE complimented the gallant officer opposite
(Wu H. Hardinge) upon the admirable manner in which he had
brought forward these estimates—a manner by which he seemed
almost to lead the house captive to his views without inquiry.—
(hear.) He (Mt. Hohhouse) preferred a good weak government
to a good strong government ; for he had seen enough of this
country to see with what difficulty what was called a good strung
government was controlled by the best interests of the country
in any measures which they were disposed to take. Upon
the other hand, a weak government would always find it nem.
nary to conciliate the good opinion of this house. His object
in rising-was to put a question to the right hon. gentleman (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer). The question was, whether govern.
inert meant to make any reduction of taxation. The right bon.
gentleman had spoken in very general terms about a reduction of
the estimates, but not a word had been said about the sinking fund,
or a reduction in the taxes; he thought therefore, that the country
had a right to know abet relief was intended for the distresses of the
country, and unless some satisfactory statement was siren on that
point, he should vote for the amendment.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would merely state
that the house might rest assured that there was every readiness on
the part of ministers to make every reduction possible ; but it was
flake out of his power to go into any minute detail at the present
moment.. He was sure that every one must see that if he were to
make any partial statement, this would tend to aggravate the die.
tress. and lead to false calculations (hear.) He stated this merely
in a general way, and trusted that the house would• not, from his
lence, entertain any opinion favourable or disfavourable on the sub-
ject mentioned.
Cul. SIBTHORP said a few words, the purport of which could
not be ascertained.

Sir J. WROTTESLEY said that the country must look for
relief from reduction in taxation, and that they had a right to ex-
pect every, relief In that respect practicable. He concurred entirely
in what had fallen from the hon. member for Essex, u to the In-
crease of the army since 1822, and on that ground alone he would
vote for the amendment.

Sir It. FERGUSON wished to state, ass military man, that ha
did not think that a p.ingle regiment could be dispensed with.—
(Hear.) The hon. member for Essex had alluded to the state of
the army, and the relief that was required for the colonies, but be did
not seem to entertain a correct opinion on that subject, or was at all
aware of the relief that was required for the army in the Else and
West Indies. It would be quite impossible to keep it up without
supplies from this country. For these reasons he could not concur
in the statements of the hon. member for Montrose, and must there.!
fore oppose the asnentinient.
Colonel DAVIES explained, as* whited to know whether asy
reduction was to take place In the India, army.
Sir ROBERT WILSON gave great credit to the right hon.
gent. for his statement. He had examined the animates, end he did
not think that the number of men proposed was too ;large for the
present establishment, and for the defence and security of the Co-
lonise. But the question was, whethet so many places ought to be
garrisoned. His gallant ftichd had spoken of relief as regsmied the
Indian army, and he consented with hint on duo pion He
thought the East India Company aught to pay a part of the ex-
, penes, and that this was a proper time for the question, as a coin-
mince had
,juet been appointed for inquiring into the affairs of

i 4 HANEY HAIIDINOE said the len Indian army
bad
been
I
placed on the dead weight limy and 40.01,10/. had base paid by the
company. He wished that this sum should be paid over, in order,
to diminish the dead weight, but on inquiry he fbund that this
could' mit be admitted by act of parliament. lie did not think that
sum saffichnt..
Mr. STANLEY eneurrail in what had fallen hum the
member for Westminster, but, at the same time, be thought MS
statement given by goiernmeitttio good 'anti hit that he idtratid be
emir tonna we division that night. He watch, asses oonvitteed
.afthe-psepriety of each a num° as he believed, inci the bins
411rown eat by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that farther nine-
. don would. tab. pl}a.
Loa MATEO/ME thought the trooped the lin could not
undergo any inativhd tedisetton, ea* liCeditlit• of the vie resellber
'whieh:went wmaived to make up deficiencies in roginanili=
• He should' Weeny sees any reducsion in troops who Ind
tistinstiver so pliantly, and who had been so servideas& to the
otaintry. The reiluetibn ought' multilane, Is ether depenmooks.
bir A. Villfhle defended, the ant *odd &Weak
A3hiett so soy reduction le thlt,eavalry,*littir jos Aft our
mamas which required a.losg.titne to render etheNst. No moo Wait
mute ithifoti% than him's& to relieve tile Mennen or the country,
dnd he should phmlf
Mar sifkoft
1. Me.. 111 J:

Sir G. MURRAY would offer a few remarks in reply to the ob-
servation of the hon. member (Mr. Labouchere) topecting the Ca.
nodes. The hon. gent. said they were governed on a garrison prin.
ciple, but it should be recollected that the force was less than in
1792, and that the population had [neatly increased since that time.
It also should not be overlooked that there was a war in that
country within a late period and military arrangements made under
such circumstances, could not immediately after be dispensed with.
(Hear.) With respect to Ireland, on the extent of the force In
which country some stress had been laid, he would remind the
honourable gentleman who made the comment that until lately
the people of that country had been agitated by circumstances
which the measures of last session, he hoped, would put an end to.
The mass of the people were discontented from causes which were
now to be buried in oblivion—but while he trusted that all danger
was gone by, still be thought it was prudent not to be too hasty fn
reducing the force. He had no desire to see a greater military force
retained in that country than necessary; and he had no doubt, after
a short period, that much of it would be withdrawn. With respect to
the colonies, particularly the West India Islands, where, as in Ire-
land, a great part of the population was not under equal circum.
stances, he thought that the same reasoning might apply. He did
I not wish to say that offensively towards the people of Ireland, or to
raise an argument of strict analogy ;. but there was enough in the
cases to allow of an allusion, and to justify the maintenance of a vs.
amiable force in the colonies..—(Hear.) The hon. member fee
Abingdon, in speaking of the regiments of the line, had done thew
no thore than justice. It was a truly admirable force, and be
knew no force of equal number, in ancient or modern times, that
went through so great a quantity of hard and wearing-out met.
vics.—(Hear.) He agreed with the noble lad ihe emeehop
Northampton (Lord Abhor/4 in all that bed hem add frj
him of the guards. No panegyric was neeMermy on ith pint
towards that fine body rof }}'troops ; but be thought that the
maintenance of them could be upheld on no other issumilo Mike
these strictly military.(—Hear.) The nature of the gleittilid
of this country rendering it fitting that a portion of its mill.
tag force should be in attendance on the person of the King
(Hear.) The guards performed that duty, and the general duty of
the metropolis, and there was no doubt but that they discharge:A
it better than it would be done by other regiments relieving in sue.
cession—( Hear.)
After a few words from Sir R. Inoue, the house divided—
For the resolution

For the amendment . .

Majority
The gallery was again cleared for another division, but we un.
derstand it did not take place. On our return we found Mr.
HUM moving that the estimate of numbers of the land forces
should be reduced from 88,000 to 78,000 men.
Mr. PALM PR said that he feared the country would be of
opinion that the house would make no reduction, and that vote after
vote would be passed, and the session allowed to pass over, without
any relief of the burdens of the country. He thought no saving,
even the slightest, should be despised, and that the fretting of let-
ters by members of both houses might be given up with propriety..
(hear.)
Mr. HU3IE, on revising the estimate, said he would alter his
amendment to 71,000 men. In 1821 he had the misfortune to
carry the house through 73 divisions on the army estimates, which
occupied several weeks as, the noble lord (Palmerston) well knew •
and though at the end of the session not one farthing was reduced,
still an address was voted to his majesty, ind an abatement
prayed fur; and it was a remarkable fact that within a few weeks
afterwards 13,000 men were reduced. The number at that time
was 81,000 men, and it was reduced to 88.000 e At present it was
above that number, and he begged to submit the course he had pur-
sued at that time as an example or precedent by which the house
might learn to aet of its own accord—(bear.)
Lord ALTHORP said he would vote for a reduction of 5,000
but not of 10,000 men.
air. C. FEROUSSON agreed with the noble lord.
Mr. 11U3IE consented to change his amendment, mud moved a
I reduction of 5,000 instead of 10,000 men.
The house divided—

For the amendment
Against it

93

- -110

Majority .
The estimate was then agreed to.
Mr. HUMS Said that he would resist any further progress. It
wwe►ident that the House of Gonnuons bed•deeided not to reduce
one shilling of the public expenses. Then had been eight haunt
tory unfortunately spent.
The house resumed. Report to be received on Monday.
Adjourned at half-past Twelve o'clock;
MR. CORBETT'S LECTURE.

Mr. Cobbett, on Thursday night, delivered another
lecture at the Mechanics' Institute. The Theatre was
crowded, and by a most respectable audience. It must
be repeated that the following is only an outline of the
leading points of the lecture, ail, delivery of *Wet occd•
pied upwards of an hour and a half, and was listened to
with the moat eoroplimentary attention, e*eept when
loud laughter, or earnest applause interrupted the lecturer.
Mr. Cobbett commenced with observing that they might
now pretty well judge of what the " collective wisdom"
would do. The name was given them by the late Mr.
James Perry,but they had now assumed anew name; dew
was, ones of their body had re-christened them. Sir
James Graham, the•other night, at the conclusion:of his
speech, thanked his constituents for affording him the
opportunity of addressing the " noblest assembly of free-
men in the whole world" (laughter). That " noblest mews-
bly," then, hatoonfirmed alllterhad said : he had repeatedly
declared that if they persevered in their measure without
;adopting other/ilea/wee, the systatimouldhehlowmipiroin
ifP to bottom. The Rukeof Wellington haddeclared that he
would persevere, that there were to be no more colors
cad Mr. Peet had avowed (alaiestin.the 'fords'
slightest signal of any in-
the mast dirmotoli.,,.eonse-
: rim to the auk-furgoldt.
notes would mum be.worth
Mr. C.'s) doctrine. There::

••-~Af

" .

• ,of, pew;. Mr. pet( had al/9/
e.'
old be ready to give Itlivaolas fOr say joilletinie• phis
_r hisformer lecturei
tha
t the
st
[3111.11414 an.ollsertmuies as moo to make.bofore eh, Mem: itontiOn•Uvlefrrine Wottid•ltr of the
to *ordeal/40m Who tigpatlon wasLurbitler the jpOoPlir doweeepAraii WQuW.inuueflifteely
wtorto obtain aorreirthrt, • member tor wow) 14, wee imidokthe.t.
Div
spoken of the increase of *levant, iiritemst co&
hist on that point. lie thought that, after the healing only 19e. and that wits his (Mr