Star.
London, England, 1809-06-16 00:00:00

that
all
men ,
tato
friotsth:sigintiefidcancem:
"T'? tllvi!tilconuunr.
eililjoelirtitelost,/44114,4 1,70;,,,f ~-(4„,,,,,,,„e,,,"-An4.,!°410. Ithell"l,„gfe4sprcesenalm'6lertazioaes*,ll4.., .theXhii.i.lll.Pcaelintrill7fr..aaPiltuerr°lll:lg..c4 Zrollialidealfaednd s.trien.igtstlielent:riethberou'r."'retre. ng
instltaieellt nit. be•yea,,t; - rof*. itit;nec7sion • minonfnather:reasonCto aidoPts in order to. get rid of ,try cannot long exit. Therefora. we sh.eld attack
.
ag4n. occurred 4,1, - the" islOpttno ' f' wools. a peas** the pusrepre:sentatiott which his been so loug.and so it at once, and endeavour to produce its oikesthrt,w.,
Defective, thereflaye,an itiiettiri as it undatibana4 ,asatiliefy propagated,- rnthregard so soy .opinion upon For myself, I should-have no. fear of the issue. lam
was in :many "respects,'Utelt exCapsdingly anxious that this important question. The. mischievous tendency fullypersuaded with a pore Douse of Commons
it should be entertained by their Lordahips, i of such: ruisrepresentationxould•not -affect
.m y mind so • weitald. he, wneffectent-remetiy, and therafere. 1 .am
LOrd eARYSPORT could isot.give hif assent to much as to any impression huatile tame prsonally, anxious -for reform: Theuecessity forreform has in.
the Bat. It could be adenine& with no good, which it was likely to produce upon the public, as to deed bees recentlyi admitted •hy this House. In the
and might' be productive 4f Mitch mischief. It was the operation :t might have upon the general interests discussion; of 'a' certain-Bill, I coneeive the necessity
certain only. of iocreasirmil.theinflu.ence of. the Crown of the
.questioo to which I am, about to call your at-. existing. for some reform to have been cornpktely re.,
and the patronage of Miningts. Besides its title and tention. I therefore think it necessary to correct any' cognized. The :pitsFalg, of that till indeed proved it.
preamble was calculated to ..raise.,a delusive hope. erroneous opinions-which may have gone -forth upon Theamily question now is, %%nether you will rest sa.
which its provisions.wouldaever realize. It was calctoi; tests head. .• feel it a duty to myself, and to the pah_ tisfied -rid, what you have done towardsi au'rpeofonrmit._by
lattd only to practice a gross imposture onthe publictl lic, tiat this point should no. longer remain in -any that Bill, `and whether the public will be satisfied
J...ord 110.R.-IItIGDOI4 supported the BiTl,.aed con...i degee of amhiguity, or liable to any of that miscon., with such a measure ? It has been advanced in
tertited,thit.sti far' 'from being inoperative, ;its nrovi., ception. and misrepresentation of which I have so this House,
lions.mtist produce the most salutary effects. Noble; much reason to complain. What I .
propose is not tives'; and front the tendency, of •that remark, I
Ur& Ilia Only- fairly to examine them,;' and they i the discussion of any specific plan,but.that after what think it necessary to make some remark
must be canvinced that uot_only they Attuld not be 1 I have Stated, this House and the country should The doctrine so admirably adapted to support corrup.
PrOdUoli*O-of mischief; but that they must be atten..l have a clear and definite idea of my views upon the tion, by occasionally referring
ded with the Most beneficial consequences. A Noble ' measure of Reform—that it should be fully known and its magnitude, is not in.my view more derogatory
aOl Lewitt Lord (Erskine) had weliOhseived with : how far lam disposed to go, and where I would stop. to justice than this. Its object and bearing is la fact
rignid toahhther Bill, the introduction of which re- i Undoubtedly this subject has long engaged my most to cut up morality by the roots. No esteem or conk.
fleeted so.mtich honour on that Leanne Lords hu. i anxious attention. Although 1, stated very early my deuce could completely attach if such a doctrine were
manityl.vie. that the mere existence of the preamble ! opinion respecting it, I -
cans assure this Hoese that admitted. If all are conceived to act from mixed
of his Bill in the statute bOok mast impress senua.• that opinion was not lightly hazarded or thoughtlessly motives, how is the country to appreciate character
meets of a salutary tendency. He might say the sanse. formed—that it was an opinion taken up after the • --how ascertain the distinction between the good and
of the present ; for sure he was that if it passed Into ! fullest and most diligent examinztion, which my' the bad portion—which motive an action sprang from?
a law it would go a great length, in correcting and ; mind was capable of bestowing upon it. I did not, Really, from-the confidence and boldness with which
suppressing the corrupt practices and abuses which therefore, venture to offer it to public attention with this caraordinai y doctrine was laid dowo, it may seem
were now acknowledged to prevail in the returning any of the views ascribed to me—with any desire to. somewhat hazardous to ventiirettpon dispntingit.Still
of Members to serve in Parliament. ! excite discontent, or to keep the public mind agitated.i, Lam ready to state the yery.reversc. eLinaintain that
Lord ROSSLYN argued at some iensth against : without having myself any definite notion of the ;so far from men acting generally frommized motives,
the Bill, and reprobated the inequatvwith which it , means proper to be taken for removing that discos. 1 that they never so act- that men act from 4liftrent
would operateon the daft rent clauses Of theCornmunity. 1 tent and agitation. If such were the case, I should il Motives, that, avarice, and ambition, or envy andhatred
Lord SELKIRK objected to the Bill as recog- feel my conduct as culpable as 'those who misrepre- may prompt a man. to action, both leading him to
nizing an erroneous principle, which at some future ; sent me would wish it to be considered, for I am the same end, is an intelligible and tellable proposi..
period might be carried to a dangerous extent. 1 teady to confess, that to excite dissatisfaction in the tion. But it might•aaavell be stated that because dif.
The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE, :although ! public mind, by turning its eye to evils, without the ferent ro,ads• lead into this town, and different rivers
he acknowledged that the Bill fell very far short of , proposition and beyond the powers of any redress, empty themselves into the sea, that these roads and
the expectations whichlie had originally entertained j would be a most exceptionable line of proceeding, rivers mixed, as that-because different motives operate
of it, yet as it laid dOwn a great principle -which it (if general cry of hear, hear !) In this case I propose tia upon a man's mind urginF.him to the same end, that
was the duty of Parliament to cherish,: ht. declared i abstain most cautiously from any thing like exagger. therefore he acted from'mixed motives. The position is
his intention of !retina. ft: going into a Onximittes. i ittion or irritating ..language. I shall also abstain
,quite unphilesophical. A man mayact from a predonii..
Lord MULGRAVE argut3 at consideraWlength ! from the rise of every expression calculated to'excite. pant motive ; he may be under the influence of what
in support of the Bill. - . . . . lin any Gentleman, or set of Gentlemen, the slightest is ca led a ruling passion, but to say that he is actua•
The Marquis of DOUGLAS declared, tiust in • asperity of feeling, because. it is thy wish that the ted brmixect motives, is quite preposterous. I say,
opinion it was a measure wbolly delusive, -, . - merits of the que,stioo siaould .be.coolly and candidly on the contrary, that however pure and unmixed the
The House then-resolv.itself into a -Coininittee • considered that it should by the subject not.of angry motive of a man's.actions may be, he in no case acts
on the Bill. - ootentiott,,bat..4-,amioable ,discussion. . I shall, of from mixed motives. But there may be a convenience
Earl G.ROOrENOR, proposed the omission of the course, abstain from any retrospect or reflection that in adopting this' doctrine of mixed motives, similar
word “ express'''. Stating, * the saute time,, that he , Might have a contrary tendency.; .at the same time to that which induced some time ago the keeping of
did mit Mean tci tiOnlinetAt the itabatnitition of the there harbecnsome 4nelrisies recently; promulgated mixed accounts, because such mixtures may serve
, ,
word 44. implied."
~,__ .e- • . in Wu Boum *licit Aoki in in attains Pf suc.lx. &Aire. ,to a rate a confusion, calculated to avert detection.
The LORD CHANCaLOR Qo,e4i•
.chit. hievous nurture that I cannot persuAdemyself altoge- .--I defy any -man, however, to thew that sOch a
amendment. If the offence, sitaiisat ;lietrektlit-lin: her to overlook them, AA; ye; I- shall, ill animadvert., doctrine is reconcilable with reason.—Thera is aro.
was directed, were at Prtsent'an Offettce*.atiinst:the. n uponahese dontrioespasatitine their character-by Cher :doctrine which has been lately urged in this
i
commonlaw, the introduction of the. word', expresa,'.'. theg rule oi.',reason, avoiding as much at Laossihie the use House, which appears to me to call for some animad-
would tend to render 'the punishment more :,evere) Of.any remark that Might teud-to, periodece an angry
~ version. It has been held that while the forms ofthe
if it were hot anoffenee-againosohe common law, it feeling. -The couree.which I hive prescribed for my-• Constitution remained, there was *till a grew deal
Would tend "thltigiet Ipiiiiiilttrieht precisely on that` self is, first, to stage the eviliariiiag oui. of the nature • left-.that indeed these forms were of great
• . . • • ....

part of the general' offence which it wal:Most desira-
ble to punish. AdVertiAg to the citiesiiim of reforM,
he declared that he had ever been 'hostile to it. On
this subject he had always differed from his late night
Hon Friend Mr. Pitt. He believed, 'however, that
towards the close of his life Mr. Pitt hiniself thought
well of those who had resolutely oppsised "every
tempt, of proceeding, tit_ conieqnences winch
might so seriously endanger every valuable institu-
tion in the country.
The Cornmitt?e ditided' en the amendment pro.
posed. by' Lord Grosvenor... For the amendnient 9
.Againstit 23.—Majority 14. •
The other clauses of the Bill were then gone througb,
the House was resumed, and the Bill was orcierato
be read a third time to-moirow.—Adjouraed.

• HOUSE OP COMMONS.
The Deputy Usher of the Black Rod -summoned the House to
the Hew of Lords, where the Royal assent was given by Com-
mission to.the Irish Militia Regulation Bill, the Bankrupt Laws
Ainendmir Bill, and the Manchester Water Works Rill.
A Messenger from the East India House presented a return of
Writers and Cadets sent to India, from the year 1793, up to the!
blest period to which the account could be mace up.
Mr. HUSKISSON presented an account of the amount 'of
per cent,. annuities transferred to the Commissioners tor thetße.
union of the National Debt.—Ordered to lie en the table.

Mr. HUSKlSSONpresented an aCeount of the amount of the
four and a hialf per cent. &ties, and the pensions and salaries paid
out of them during the present rein.
Mr. CREEVEY said, that this was merely a return from titse.i
Exchequer, and did not go the length of his Order.
' Mr. HUSKISSON said, that the Return had been made tip an
far as it could, and was correct so far as it went.
Mr. CREEVEY was satisfied with she explanation ; but gave
notice, that next Session he would move, that these duties he ap.
applied as originally intended, aecordiag to the Coloaial Act of
}Ten
Aftets few' o IKI• wrds from the Srsasts, Lord FOLTeIIK, die
uonLoo of the EXCH ?QV tR, ansi)Mr. CRS/VEY, the pipet
Ordered to lie on the table.
The Judges Salaries bid read a third time and passed.

Of the representation ; and, in the nett place, the re-
medy. which is perfectly simple and practical—which
is not only consistent with the-habits and interests of
the peoples but with the lawrand constitution or the
country-Tor rether,as I think, I can :hews-which is
the _Constitution itself. Let others death in whimsical
speculations, in undefined, mysterious motions about
tha.co. nstitution, which elude •the grasp, which are
utteitly above the conception of ordin;u y minds, which
are not to be found in the history er the law of the
land. These speculatists may amuse themselves with
their fine-spun webaof reasoning which ordinary men.
could not compass,whicb, in fact, w(,tild seem to
laint,the constitution in the clouds, so that none but
ose who could soar very high indeed, would he able
itiureaelsit,.,ce appreciate its character. , .But I will
not follow these soaring visionaries. The Cosistitti-
tion which I shall present to the House and
',.country ',will take from the Statute-book,: from the ,
Lancient maiims,ancl practices of the country, emit in,
these resources can be found that which, I think* win.
be sufficient tosatisfythe plain -reasoning part of the,
community. I think ,I.c#n shew that the, Consti-
tution which I would recommend, is the old Constitii.
Con of the Country...4*A if ram mistaken I shall-he,
ready .to .give up-. my opinion.; -I will, indeed, be

_
obliged to any Gentleman who may,correct,my errors,.
and if saeorrected shall immediately abandon my
*kir:. But if I *horrid 'hew .that the present sys-
kiwis an innovation --upon rho old Constitution I
of the country—that itris contrary to-onr laws, and
that the best remedy for it is by-a /ecurreace to-those
laws, may I hope for the concurrence ,of this. House
the adoption of that remedyl
_With vspect.to the
doctrine which we have lotasd,laiett, that corruaxien .
is a part bf our ancient •Constitution—that it is Item-
sary—that it must be supported—that indeed it is to
• tolerated, not merely for sake A the Constitution

impart-
ance, and that their existence always jusiified the hope
of freedom. This idea, which was illustrated by the
old story of the stag and the horse, was utged.as a
sort of caution to the people, not to throw themselves
iato •the arms of a power which they ought to,avoid.
The application of the advice could not. larmaigndcgn.
It me.tua this, that the Reople .should not 4qgk4A all •
themselves with the Crown, for the purpose of avert-
ing the mischiefs likt.iy to proceed from a House of .
Commons such as this is ; but I will not attend to
the warning of this fable• from any fear of the prero-
gative. For of dustprerogative I feel no fear, con-
eeiviag.it to be a material part of the Criost itotion.
I therefore never bad any objection to it.. The,onb:,
Ipprebensiost indeed( that ever atm in narAloAL.TeTi.
spacing it was,- dottier its. kokag•ituctioa*Sli. nPoina •
and abused under a .Honsonf Ccntinosts fw,h.:as
What' I desire then is, the erectiosigaikiarf*.44inq.
such abuse, ~by the 'restoration Id Ale fYliti.l44inge•ot
the Constitution, by giving.to each b6tich its legiti-
mate right, thus providisig at once for therdefettee of
the prerogatives of the Crown, and the inntectinn of
the rights, of .the people.:.. I wish to brim
I-louse of Commons to what.l can thew st,wasl.-ap4:.
I think I can also shewi that t() its departatro•frona •
that is to be attributed the, greater part if not.rho

. was
ISLE OF MAN.
Mr. CREEVV.Y wished to know how much of the produce or
the eugtoms of th•• f 4 of Man was ai ito public r

whole •of the grievances which nor glkist..tb e country.
But, to return to the assertions about, the yallue.. of
forms : The very contrary of •altAt .appears to hive
been the opinion of alt the best general writers upon'
Government, the doctrine laid :down by whom his
uniformly been, that of all tyrannies Abet whicti
gislates under the forms of freedom i.s.theibost itatos
Itrable. . This doctrine is. indeed prOved by experi,
eace. What was the state of Rome wing the
periods, of its most odious despotism? Xouic at.
the description drawn by Tacna; . of; thtreigq. •
of Tiberius. That historian states, that...ihtke„fibp.,4

teer
ut, as it would see-iv, that the bonst4tution was to
tolerated for the sake of, it. We have heard it
:_ --

most abominable tyrimity was practishd,q n itutpfloo
plc, all the forms of their tonstituligpzwin*paereyi4s,.-
7

...
........ . ... . ,i-- .
, .
• rnoied for air 'PPlied -4 P"-- piqrseir— i retiously illtalged that without the auxiliary of cor. , ..'he Romans had still their e_nostitimivedpiadßirter,i
uneent,hfereremfilrthee year 17nt.—Oaccrtrierednt. of
t161,11°41".., es
and
a"ligt. i inPtion• ,in this House the Constitution would not be Sea.tta debating. In fltct,..ipst-irs'propenadoes.ft
Mr. CRE/-.N. EY then moved fora similar accousa.respectisc! secure--the Government could not be carried on. . forms were inlorced the tyrinny was exercised..q fti
the produce of certain lands which had belonged to.i.ord Am- ; it what idea ean.those who make this allegation ; the -observance of forms in -Rome, as irpg ,
hem, in Canada, in lieu' of which .iOIIOI. Was paid to that er,
en
• Noble- •
~.,... . ~'! ‘.un of the Constitution ? It is understood to i where, instead of being valuable as thq i0C1.144. .0)940
Lord.—Ordered.
_ 1 consist of King, Lords, and Conunons, and that the " benefit, or the justification-tit anylaoPcgrvlcitoek•
CATALONIA. - • .
Lord COCHRANE gave notice, for next Session, upon the ; latter thou ld
.form an assembly elected by the -peo- totlegravate the crimes of the Govritment :14;14e•
subject of operattolts on the coast of. Catalonia, &c. unless 24,3. : pie, appointed at once to preserve the rights of the additionof hypocrisi; and to embitter the 113gep345
sisters should, during the recess, pax such egetnitua to the point , people and the prerogatives of the Crown. Such is ,of the people by the mockery...ok .44440tt, i...illeos
as to render his interference unueeentit7. . I t;le original structnre and end. of the institution, anal-anxious-as any other person for thtiffte4i9.l.l 40: F4Tr.-
VIIIVATE Ntii.S. I what has corruption to do with such an institution..? ', --_-1 differ from those Gentlemen only:in ray. y.v.i.s4,tfi.
The CHANCELLOR of rue EYCHEQUER Rai, notice thit.at i
that he. ttonay ;tufo Yet it has been,observeds.that k has i‘ grown with its ol.ave the substance. alio, and t p
.e--,;?kar. : ..
next Session he would move a Resolution respecting the Lintit
tion Of the time for presenting private petitions. He ale* gays 4 growth and strengthened with its strength," a very tuv. ibe catty leafier deceived by appearttuctut, which servg -.
notice for next seamen, of a [notion, founded upon a Reasbilion i. happy quotation,certainly, for the object of those who.; only to facilitate the destruction of whatever or4S4 .
of the present Session, respecting the appoitirnent of a person, to , used it. It applied sttongAys indep,,,lo7,heJavouronf:)solestitllSte May. still.remain , hly obiectethertieF,4krir
1. , -be responsible for the care of private bills.
i .-:TJAL GRANTS.
1 to such abaneful diseases--for some measure 120 Siefec tio*Ji.xitlittinguYPer4ensl.'efY leilidifeSin4Filtr
The. CHANCELLOR of the EXcHWQUIR next moved, ; ; • - ~.• • • • r . deo .!.. a•• se • .• • •ttii e 's.- ` 'Qv'. . .vi ,
b4.1,44,,egy „ th, 1. We constitution appicteel with suth a iisseaserrona: .: g.int annovason, itt, s. !ie.,' colmt), 4%,..4 _ .., that some Church Dignity be conferrer* by
thezleldoon seem tittegatid,,,,..)3aggßsaratAat 4,11.,_-.-
CliarlAir: of the House ; that 120p1. he, gtanttd to 14c;• Wharton, .; cay, from dissolution, This corn/mini-1 is; Irobsere4i
the Chairman of the Coranditees of Supply and *tap pad Means; ; sometimes defeadedi upon
.difetesstemmasmf,at 9,as innpvators time 4 the gre,-.A.54tt 4:l,yi),A4rik4-114pft :svtnlC ; •
that the usual sofas be granted to the Clerki of Me Meuse the ! time it is aue4...ed
~, 6 K 4 111140 iarillitegs":"s43e tinlitlihr -,alill'iAgiuivecisimging isP44tiifoAt, diieffni4444o
of Ser jeant at Arms, the Clerks Of Committee'', &n:: had *at the . ~.
Journals of the Houle sad • lailocss se theta be riesiep —Alt notice, wane at aritfther it is so mature aes to bb:bon smillk ", Wl' WO '-'lOll 41' l'g' Wd4bet j c4lrrl ii*
agreed to. .
.119Y9Ttrk
. mpitasteNraniy mecum. . i mere cheese-parings antliteadles-ends, is, at iinothesiThatsta comelssiW.ol,l%ll.olh.firimsjzik&lll4l4lAiAS4 4scot.,
Sir X;g4asleig Bllittl.El.7 ,icise • • to. rbmit Osih too formidable.to overcome, if not dangerous tsl4o(l,lleisVigntYslgiltiOf .Aig4vircivie4Lefiliteiiiipmsiy,....l
promised: "minion,: aiassip.om to die (*wing effact: !tack. I have eead, in a 'Reay's,Collection,",,:a paine3so,,both•.Kiagalull Reoplg? ; ~, flint i Aeitswotroe.,
—I do net mean, •Sir, at preSeitt to offer to the otten, [verb, ‘0 That all the King', cheese goes -in.paringsel .itilr.e lindt'oot!heen eneinatlie,d,ofkrj, ihiliatV PI-41/!l9t, •
lion of the }tense any plan. of. Refo,ra for- its imme- , and one may say, that from the.alternatexttodesioltite,osYstem Weld& rif'gr .4.J.c.i?rflgyr4=4 ..„Acßo4.,ifiA4:
diate consideration but I
,ri§e 'tp state my opinion fence adopted for corruption in: this countryi of latrii, ; bofofe4ho,.eciugvte..4tp. 3;sl-IKopsk 4;4; ite-y9t1,401% jilt •
upon this l . ' --
.",atilijectt, and tp. propose a Iteso- the whole of the cheese is become oheeseparings.!. 41.1 William the Thirdedo.i, 444 4phiolgots,on 91"-;4 A 44 ZO:fr-fq
170thot
bid"), according:l9 fietiUsrtt, ctistoma ae the close of corruption be only trifling, juisvOiir•lnte, is an ohlansie7Len• borough sendidg 11. 4,44loinkt:!tp.ithm kittule,,,3ziFQ:
a session, soon ptfser occaloias . the, object of which , wise-meeknthat.if it be even formislable,.we-inrdettsKing,. when asitraki:PgAirSrliArtiomt g 1 Ittrraqii '
IS to hold out, an assurance to. jii Country, that the i not despair or shrink from atteuiptimpituioeerstheoeu,..of ..addresainse WIN:4. Acl r.39Y,F01-C4tlKA.tbe . Fitietro Alin.
Reuse wills at,, an. early period aa. ..t 5.4., ' particularly when the •Ulabiglity..Qf AS* rititractealpte,.4kwou4ltlwpaniiitEattpaet4flill. M4411'1:10
44/ ili""
.

3,