Star.
London, England, 1831-07-15 00:00:00

TRAUDULENT DEBTORS' BILL.

Lord WYNFORD moved the Wee of the day for the
third reading of his bill to prevent debtors remaining in
prison, and ;hereby defrauding their creditors.
Lord FIFE, in a speech of considerable length, repeated
the objections made to the bill on a former day. He assured
the noble and learned lord that he was the last person in the
world who could wish to screen any one who would fly the
country to avoid the payment of debts. As little did he
wish to screen those whom the noble and learned lord des-
cribed as living luxuriously in prison at the expense of
their creditors, but he considered the measure introduced
by the noble and learned lord in the light of an es.
post facto law. It would operate as a punishment
against those who were then reduced by misfortune to a
gaol. It would make them bankrupts and give the last remains
of their miserable property not to creditors but lawyers. Their
lordships ought to consider whether such a bill would not
prevent the administration of justice in mercy. The
noble and learned lord said, one hundred persons were living
in prisons upon the property of their creditors, and admitting
that to be the fact, it did not furnish ground for a bill of
pains and penalties applicable to debtors incarcerated. The
bill would drive hundreds into that gulph of horror and de-
spondency—the Insolvent Debtor's Court, where property
was wasted in law, and where creditors derived no advantage.
The state of the law war such that it was impossible to et
anything by suit or process. AU was swallowed up
practitioners of the law. (Hear, hear.) The noble
learned lord's bill would throw persons incapable of pay.
log their debts into the den of bankruptcy, and only an.
swer the purpose of increasing misery. Death, by cholera
morbus or any other fatal malady, was a cure for all misfor-
tunes,'
but wretched debtors, forced into bankruptcy by such a
Bill as that before the House, would be subject to the worst
of prolonged torture. The noble lord contended that the
law of arrest for debt required revision. Many had been
forced by misfortunes to remain in prison, and lose all means
of support. There was mercy in the law which enabled
them to do so, but that mercy the noble and learned Lord's
Bill would destroy, not, as he bad said before, to give pro-
perty to creditors, but to divide It among lawyers and legal
practitioners. Half the cases of detention were for law expenses.
The noble lord observed, that bankrupts were unknown in
England before the Lombards commenced trading amongst
the people. Bankrupts were a foreign class of debtors, and
when known in this country lawyers turned such per-
sons to their advantage. The Noble Lord made his speech
amusing by adverting to the infamous conduct of Empson,
and Dudley, in the reign of Henry the Seventh, and the Act
of Parliament passed in that reign to rescue the people from
the evils occasioned by abuse of civil process. lie concluded
by expressing a hope, that the Bankruptcy Bill to be intro-
duced to-morrow evening, by the Noble and Learned Lord
Chancellor, would enable the people to know the law, and '
remove those abuses which ought to have been removed
before. Parliament ventured to entertain the Bill, which
then stood for the third reading. It was unjust in its opera-
tion It was contrary to the mild spirit of the ancient laws
of the kingdom. He reminded them that the ancient and
excellent laws of England were the birthright and best in.
heritance of the subject. The people were not to be ground
down by severe enactments. The laws they ought to main-
, tain were, in the language of Lord Coke, boda et approbate
anliqua regni ktes.
Lord PLUNKET alluded to a clause in the bill which
provides, that a person going abroad for a certain period with
intent to delay his creditors, shall be within the operation of
the Bankrupt Laws. He considered this enactment bard,
and, having some objection to it, wished the Noble and
Learned Lord to postpone the third reading of the bill for a
week,in order that more consideration might be applied to it.
Lord 11'INFORD observed, that the bill did not apply
to persons then abroad, but those who might leave the
country after the passing of the bill. If a trader remained
out of the country a single hour for the purpose of delaying
his creditors he became a bankrupt, and he (Lord Wynford)
had thought there would be no hardship in placing those
who were not traders upon the same footing. In answer to
the Noble Lord who opposed the bill, he begged to say the
object of the bill was not to keep persons in prison, but to
compel them not to remain in prison. They were to have
the opportunity of offering terms of settlement with their
creditors. If his Noble and Learned Friend felt any diffi-
culty upon the measure, he should not object to postpone
the third reading for a week. The Noble and Learned
Lord accordingly moved that the third reading be postponed
to this day week.
The motion was put and carried.
The Earl of WESTMEATH presented a petition from
certain persons in custody for debt, praying that Lord Wyne
ford's Bill, to prevent frauds upon creditors by remaining in
prison, be referred to the Common Law Commissioners.
Lord KING presented a petition from Belfast, for the re-
peal of the Legislative Union.
The Blahopof FERNS moved for returns relating to the
collection of Tithe in Ireland. Ordered.
On the motion of Lord ELLEN 80110 UGH the second
reading of the Forest Dean Hal was postponed to Tuesday.
The House then adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from certain persons in
the parish of Mary-le-bone, praying that the payment of
taxes might quality for voting under the Reform Bill, with-
out regard to the payment of rent. He thought the proof of
the payment of his rent. which was to be required of the
elector*, was more inquisitorial than any thing that ever
took place in Algiers. It' the bill passed iu its present
form, he would move a clause that the butcher and baker
should be paid as well as the landlord.
Mr. EWART said he had to make a statement minis-
terially from the chairman of the cotrimi,teer of Lord Sudan
and Mr. Thornton, denying the amnion made in that house,
that public-houses were at present open in Liverpool tor the
purpose of treating the voters in the interests of those can.
didates. He hoped the hon. gen leman who made the state-
ment would not hesitate to contradict it.
Mr. WASON said he was fully prepared to confirm the'
fact he bad formerly stated. Ile had read a letter 'stating
that public. houses were open to give drink to the eleioars for
each candidate. He was readj to propose a test. He would.
undertake to prove the fact at the bar of House. and .to
bear all the expense if he failed in establishing thr fact.
Mr JOHN WOOD said he could have no respect for
the elecors of Liverpool, but he had a letter from Liverpool
disavowing any treating on the part of Mr. Thurnton's
Committee.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said it was totally irregular to

go i4ro the me: the Liverpool Election, on
*scion of a pztiti,:t from Mary-le-bone.
Mr. HUNT pre:tinted a petition from Bolton. c
of the Corn Laws, which increased the price of 'a d.
obstructed the export of manufacture, and dinii
ployment. The petition wat signed by 15,000
eluding magistrates and clergymen.
Mr. WILKS presented a petition from the di
Boston, in favour of the bill of recolm br fore Park
Mr. ROGERS presented a petition from Bishops
praying that it might be taken out of schedule A.
Mr. RUSSELL presented a petition from
Yorkshire, praying to be allowed to send members
lisment.
Lord BELCH AVE presented &petition from
Grand Jury of Cheshire agsirst the beer bill.
Mr. JOHN WOOD presented a petition from
for universal suffrage, annual Parliaments, and co.(
lat. He htd been the advocate of these meastur-

was returned to Parliament, but he thought the
the house would secure good Government, and
it his cordial support. The hon. gentleman pewee
tition from the Political Union of Manchester, pray
101. householders might be entitled to vote, vice
paid their rent half-yearly, quarterly, monthly, or
Mr. JOHN WOOD presented a petition from
milers of beer in Ashton.under-Line, praying
might be allowed to keep their houses open m
licensed victuallers ; and a petition from the landot
Haslcmere for a limitation of time to the dab
church. Two hundred and twenty-two suits were cat
in one parish, and he was confident if not prevented
would soon increase to many thousand,.
%Ir. DICKSON presented a petition from
against the tax on marine insurance.
Mr. MARSHALL presented a petition from t
of St. John, Beverley, to be includedln the borough
ley : and a petition from the soap.makers of Glasgow,
repeal of the duty on soap ; and two petition% from
gations in Yorkshire for the abolition of slavery.
Wessel LOWTHER presented two petitions from pa-
fishes in I,Vestmorland for an alteration in the tithe
' system.
31r. BRISCOE presented a petition from the coal meters
of the county of Surrey, praying that they might receive the
same remuneration as the coal-meters of Middlesex ; and :.
petition from the parish of Christ Church, praying to be
united to Lambeth under the reform bill.
Mr. DENISON gave notice that he should mov:
strike the borough of Guildford out of the schdule B. that it
might continue to send two members.
Lotd KILLEEN presented a petition from Hamil.un
Gordon, praying that copyholders might be permitted to vet,:
in Ireland.

Mr. O'CONNELL said there were but three copyholdtai
in all Ireland.

Lord KILLEEN presented a petition from the Catholic
Clergy, praying for a participation hi the grant for educat:rn
In favour of Catholics.

Mr. JEPHSON presented a petition from► Raman C.
tholics of the county of Cork, for a participation in the grant
for education.

Sir R. BA TESON presented a petitiyi from Deny in ft.
your of the grant to the Kildare•street Society.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, all the Catholics required
Ist they should be allowed to educate their own children,
without the interference of Protestants.

lIIr. HUME wondered that any government would refuse
to allow Catholics to educate their own children. It was
impossibla for any man to lay his hand on his heart and ap-
prove of the manner in which grants were made to the Kil-
dare-street Society, which was an insult to the Catholics of
Ireland.

Colonel TORRENS said the Catholics of Ireland were
called on to pay taxes for education against themselves.—
( Hear, hear.)
Mr. COLSOURNE thought the Kildare-street Society
was a powerful political tngine in support of the Protestant
religion and government.
Mr. SPRING RICE; thought the Society being a poli-
tical engine, was a great objection to it. The system was
not to be defended.

Sir ROBERT INGLIS thought Oov....nment should not
raise taxes to support religious education in tenets which
thvy did not believe to be true.

11IFOR:q.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved that the House remalve
itself into a Committee on the Reform Bill.

Mr KNIGHT gave notice that he should move that
Bishop's Castle should be tun:tared from the schedule A
to schedule B.

Col. LINDSAY said he would take that oppor unity Of
correcting a roisstatemeir of what he had said the night be.
fore. He did not defend close boroughs abstractedly ; but
said, if they were removed, the democratic principle would
gain the ascendency.
Mr. CROKEH asked at whet time the population re.
turns respecting the boroughs would be presented to the
House?

Sir H. HARDINOE asked whether it would be co:rpe-
tent for him, or any other Member, to move to hear eel.
dence respecting the population of any borough.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he believed several of the
population returns were received, and he bad no ohj.erion to
their being laid before the House; but they were r or the
dataon which the schedules were turned—they were formed
on a census taken in 1821. not intended for the purpose of
reform. Wi:h respect to the question, of hearing re id, : cc, it
must be decided by each particular cue. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. SUGDEN said, the census of 1821 had been departed
front in many instances. The more the plan of the Noble
Lord was considered, the more it world be seen that it was
rot to be justified. (Cheers and laughter.) He found that
there were enemies in the enrup—he could not ►peak to his
friends around him, because trere was such a mix.nre of
those whit whom he and his friends could not agree. ( A
laugh.) He thought the people of England were deluded fur
a time, but would come to their senses. (A laugh.)
Mr. Sarni, Col. DAVIS, and Lord J. Russzt.L, iu
succession rose in explanation.
Colonel DAVIS said, that it was possible errors might
have occurred, and without the knowledge of the a ificors eti
;the districts. He supported the adoption of the census of
1821. In alluding to what had fallen from the karstsi
member who objected to him and other members having
• taken their seats among the Opposition, he has to remark.
that he (Cul. Davis) bad occupied the seat he then filled
before that learned gentleman had occupied a seat on that
side of the house, and he considered that he had as good a
right to the seat of his choice as the learned gentleman.
Alderman WI .OD said that the learned gentleman had
; particularly alluded to him when he spoke of " enemies., in
the camp:" in reply, he had to say that he had occupied
that sent since ever he had been in the house, and he did not
intend to change it. He had held the same opinions ever
since he came into the house, and meant to keep the same
seat: if the learned gent. had thought fit to change his opt.
nions, or to change his seat, that was nothing to him (Aid.
Wood), he would remain unchanged in his; so that the
learned gentleman must just take care and speak low wit, at
he had any secret to communicate to his friends about him—
(Laughter.) The worthy Alderman considered that he had
reason to suppose rather that they were exceedingly fond of his
company when they treated him with 7 divisions on a night,
and kept him longer in their company than he was inclined.
He woold not leave his seat, and he never would reveal their
secrets, but he would oppose all their present measures ; and
as long as ministers did as they had done, he would always
vote with them, although he sat on the opposite side of the
house.

Sir H. HARDING& said the cause of complaint was,
not in allusion to the hon. members taking their seats among
them, the opposition, but it was the annoyance of their re-
marks given in an under-tone, and the contradictions they
muttered. The worthy alderman had on a previous eve-
ning, when an hon. member on that side of the house was
making a motion, said, loud enough to be heard, " that's
all trickery," and the gallant colonel had in like manner
contradicted another boa. member by in the same manner
muttering "no, no,"—(heiti, hear) —and this was what was
complained of, that they should take such liberties in their
places in that house that would aot be tolera:ed in any ether
place.
Alderman WOOD said that he had used the words" that's
all trickery," because it was his conviction. tkut such was the
ca.e at the time.
Colonel DAVIS would ask the hon. baronet if h s using
the words " No, no," was any thing of au urcomit.on oe-
currence.—The hon. baronet must otten hear in the House

cries of `• No, no," Question, question," and shells). txcht-
mations.
31r. C. WYNN deprecated the. prance of inurruptir,g
hon. members while they were speaking. The hon. man.
ber then expressed his dissent from the plaq.,proposed in tl.e
measnre for Reform that .marked the qualification of
boroughs by their population. He said that itisroukl seem
that Government bad made their test persiationt to aartr.
taut. what were or what were not notarinathm or. rotten
boroughs. He enumerated several boroughs elm, bum.
tiers just escetdcd the line drawn by a very few, and these

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should MOV Z t' i • .
:hdule B. that it ii .
from Ifamil.ua 4
permitted to vet.: ; i
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hree copyhaldcrs
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tin the Catholic 1
ant for educatir a '
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rout Roman C.
Rion in the grant
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rom Derry in fa- ;
ety. i .i
lea required was, t t
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ii• t
lent would refuse
hildren. It was
his heart and ap-
made to the Kil-
o the Catholics of

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