Star.
London, England, 1824-05-12 00:00:00

,

some days the printing of the Petition, to affoldd-mote
time for inquit y.

CAVAN ELECTION.

M. A BER.CIIO ‘I BY presented a Petition frem cer.
tate Freeholders of the Count? 01 Cavan, complaining
that the ft ee.een of Election had been gre•sl%
Tee High Sheriff had ann unced the E.ectiet, by
placard having the effigy of King Willi:v1:10L11:0:1::::
a corresponding iasciiption. On the day of Hectioa
the Court was filled with Orangemen,
themselves in the mesa intemperate manner. he the
night that followed a murder lied been commitesdese
One of the Magistrates stated to the crowd, ti, tt
Orangemen, they were now a legally coesti, etc.! betty.
The Petitioners stated, that this was the second ram,
the same provocation had been received. W:ren it ea,
proposed on a well-known occasion to address the i.
Lieutenant, such was the tumult, that the Sherd, se
matter of prudence, dissolvedehe Meeting. Tee yeti ,
tioners implored the protection of the !louse. Ile serene
put it to the House, if such Members could he iverielet!
as representing the People of Ireland . He had steee.
that a murder had been committed, and lez wished re
know the composition of the Jury by svheen the parties
had been tried. Such a state of things must be c: lee
worst consequences.
Mr. MAXWELL (Member for Cavan) stated that t!i
county cf Cavan bad formerly been one of the most
quiet in Ireland, and Protestants and Catholics had Iwo:
equally anxious to promote thetranquillity of the county.
The High Sheriff had twice denied any knewledee of
the placard alleded to. The person neat for the mos.
der had been acquitted, to the satisfaction of dli present.
Orangemen was a convenient term ler zeose did net
venture to attack the Protestant ceu-e, an.t notbh
could be move unfair than ts confOutid the Orange e ter
the Ribbon-mete as the object of tee latter waste se-
parate the two countries.
The Petition was then reed, and laid on the table.
STATC Cr IRELAND.
Lord ALTUORP ro e to make his promised motion
relative to the state of Ireland. Ile commenced by te-
mai king, that he addressed Ititosehf to the subject with
the greatest anxiety as to the fee of Lis aeelication, be-
cause he sincerely telt it ought to have faden o• the Ice
of other hands to treat it as its importance demanded.
If, however, Ise should be able to induce the licuse to
go only a past of the way with him, the mete cocoa:-
stance of this discussion would, he hoped, be ineit'a
tive of very great benefit, and many advantage, to Ire-
land. The question was surrounded by many ,iffi-
culties, and thse,e difficulties :Arose from a long itain cf
events connected with the history of that comet y. Ire-
land had unfortunately all along been treated as a con-
quered country. A deadly feud had subsisted between
the mass of the people and their masters, the conquered
and the conquerors.—The result was haired tat the part
of the people to their Government, (lists uo of each
other, violent party spirit, and aversion to the laws in
a greater degree than was ever known in any other
country's history. This made their grievances not only
extremely difficult to remedy, but extremely difficult to
attempt to touch.—The evils of many centuries were
not to be removed by violent or sudden measures—
(Hear). Up to the period of the Union it might have
been said, that it was extremely difficult to treat Ire-
land otherwise, but after that event, the 4tate of things
was completely altered. The Catholic population of
Ireland, which was till then the majority of its popula-
tion, became by the Union the minmity of the popula-
tion of the Empire. Of the Union he must say he
thought it was a wise measure. however; its evils
were certain, whilst the advantages were adventitious
and dependent on the sort of Government which she
might have the good or ill fortune to obtain. The evils
were the increase of absentees and alienation of pro-
perty, and the possible advantages were the putting
down of all political patties by a just Government, and
the establishment of an equality of rights throughout
that country. These were his own opinions on the sub-
ject. The evils he principally complained of were, dis-
trust, want of mutual confidence, party spirit, and
hatred of the laws. The difficulty at the subject would,
perhaps, best be met by moving fore general Com-
mittee on the subject, rather than moving far partial
and separate inquiry into a variety of abuses. Most of
the evils in Ireland were perpetuated by an open con-
tempt of public opinion on the part of the public au-
thorities. To restore that wholesome influence was a
desideratum of the utmost consequence. It was too
fashionable of late to meet complaints of this nature by
appointing a Commission. He should prefer a Com-
mittee of that House, as best able to meet and over-
come the difficulties of such an inquiry. It might be
said that the state of the country was so far improved,
that these was no necessity for the inquiry; but this
would be considered altogether unsatisfactory, if met
absurd, since the Insurrection Act was very likely to be
a subject of discussion as applicable to Ireland within
a very short period. This was in itself a good reason
for demanding inquiry on the subject. Though late in
the Session, that was no argument against their acced-
ing to his motion; for it was impossible this inquiry
could terminate its labours in any one Session. He
himself bad served very patiently for months on a Com-
mittee of Trade and Commerce, and none though:
their labours thrown away ; but it was idle to talk of
the importance of such a subject as compared with the
welfare of Ireland. So strongly wog he impressed with
the belief that others thought so, that he thought it
would be easy to procure twenty-one Gentiemen
such a Committee who would devote themselves to the
subject with laudable zeal and perseverance. lie should
propose that this Committee should be invested with
very extensive powers ; and though the House should
be cautious in interfering between landlord and tenant,
master and servant, yet suds was the state of society in
Ireland, that the saute deOcace as to legislating on these
intricate relations would not he either necessary or
praiseworthy. The tenant might at present be con-
sidered as the bondsman almost of his landlord,
ahem he kept a sort of running account, in which were
Mehl led the services of not only himself but of his
family. There was another class of evils arising oat et
the rniddie-men, and the controul they exerceed over
property. Ail these causes Legat a c:istrust which had
hitherto proved fatal to the employment of capital le
Ireland by English capitalists, owing to the apprehen-
sions which were entertained as to the safety of ploperl
embarked in such speculatiens. He had heard with
plcasute the motion of the Honourable Member isr
Northatnpton a few nights ago, on the subject of th,,
opening now fur the employment of capital in ;lea.
country. He believed the dangers attending the err'
ployment of capital in Ireland were much exagge.atea:.
The Irish were too sensible slot to see the benefits ',hits)
must arise faorn a general dissemination of weehe
through that country. The employment of capital in
land might be less safe celt4inly, but in manufao,,iio,


r~

which must-be in. or near large towns, there cooli be
little daager 'or hazard. But the aggregate of all those
hazards was nothing compared to the risk run by Mime-
row capitalists in this day, who lent their 'money on so
Dian), fallacious representations and wild schemes
abroad and at home. It had been argued that if the
taxes were all taken off in Ireland, as had been sug-
e' fed they would become the rivals of the manufac-
turers of Birmingham and Manchester. Would to
Uoo that such a state of things should arrive, or that
teen the rate of the profit of industry in Ireland were
ircreaced! Its results would doubtless be peace and
cadet, instead of • insubordination ; and instead of an
timooductive exchequer, the consequence would be
th-s found.stion of a large revenue at no very dis-
tant period, which would well repay this country for its
forbearance. At present how different was the prospect
sai things ! We were obliged to maintain a large standing
-army, backed by Insurrection Acts,and a powerful
.--This was a system which was hateful to freemen.—
There was a contagion about arbitrary power, which
rendered it dangerous that it should be in our neigh-
bourhood —( Hear). His next objection was to the
Grand Jury system of presentments in Ireland, which
went to levy, annually, taxes to the amount of 7.50,0001.
by a secret mode of arrangement amongst the Gentry
of the country, who it was to be feared had too often
separate and distinct interests in disposing of the public
money. Possibly the Committee would he able to de-
vise sonic mode of managing the expenditure on pub-
lic improvements, roads, and bridges, in some mariner
resembling those in the Highlands of Scotland. The
next question was the Church E tablishment of Ireland,
whi:h, he contended, loudly demanded inquiry. He
was far ft orn being averse to the cultivation of religious
instruction in that country, at considerable expense, so
as it was done effectually; hut they should carefully
abstain from taking the wealth of the Church Establish-
ment for the welfare of the Church. In this respect ire
could not but give a decided preference to the frugal,
unostentatious, effective system of the Scotch Presby-
terian Church. Its object should be simply the propa-
gation of religion. If he should prove to the Committee
that the Church had misapplied its wealth, he felt it
would be a very fit subject for inqui: y, connected as it
NV:IS most immediately with that most obnoxious set of
laws; ;be tithe system. This latter had not failed to
craw the attention of Government. Though sanguine
as to i,s success, he could not imagine that it would
e.isily be universally adopted. Tithes, even in this
country, had been a subject of reiterated complaint;
but how much more was it likely to be so in Ireland,
where the tithe payer and the tithe receiver were of dif-
ferent religions? To suit the system to the state of ig-
norance in which the people were, it ought to be simple,
and the mode of redress obvious. In this country it
was easy, in case of any dispute, to compel the Clergy-
markto take the tithes in kisid, or in case of its being
set-out, his neglect to take it away, after notice to
that effect, was at his peril. But this was noc the case in
Ireland ; indeed, owing to the decision of Courts of Law
it was almost impossible to do so. To this state of the
law might be attributed much of the mischief and
bloodshed in that country. Under these circumstances
he wished all possible success to the Bill for the Corn-
mutation of Trhes. There was yet another question for
the consideration of the House and the Committee (if a
Committee should be appointed), namely, the Orange
and Ribbon Associations.. He should not distinguish
between them. Both were bad—(lm,-). Whenever
one sprung up, the other must naturally spring up also. i
Attempts had been made last year by the Government
of Ireland to put them down, but lie feated with but
rely lit:le success. He would suppose that Ow Com-
mittee appointed should represent to Government the
propriety of refusing to give to any persons in such a
Society any high situation or place of honour or emolu-
ment, or that it should remove from such situations all
such obnoxi:ors persons ; this, in his mint), would du
mere to abate the evil than all the• Acts of Parliament
ever passed—(Hear, hear). He drew ari animated pie-
ture of the evils arising from the present system-of Land-
lord and tenant in Ireland, which afforded the tenant in
Ireland, particularly the Catholic tenant, just and
settled causes of discontent. They were thus made a
degraded class. The result of this state of things was,
that the capitalist was excluded from employing his
money in such a divided and discontented country. The
objections to maintain the Church Establishment in Ire-
hold were rendered still stronger, because the Catholic
naturally said in.his heart, it is to maintain this wealthy
Church and its ascendancy that we are excluded from
many dignified situations. Though nominally excluded
only from a few, it operated to exclude him-from many.
This was natural, because it was impossible to degrade
a man a little—(Hear, hear). To prove the sincerity of
his uish to conciliate, certainly some of these high offices
should be opened to the Catholic. Looking to the po-
litical career of the Right Hon. Gentleman now at the
head of his Majesty's Councils in that House, he was
not disposed to give him much confidence. But he was
slow so circumstanced, that no situation in this country,
in Europe, or the world, could he an object of ambi-
tion to him; and why was his high station desirable?
Not that he should be called a Secretary of State; not
from the paltry salary attached to it, but because he had
the capability of doing good, the power of transmitting
his name to posterity through the medium of history as
the.benefactor of his country—( Loud Cheers). That
flight Hon. Gentleman possessed greater meansto set ye
his country in this emergency than any person who had
preceded him ; because, first, he had the power, and
next he knew full well how to apply it to the comple-
tion of this great object. He called on him to do so
now. He was sure of the sincere and cordial co-opera-
tion of every honest man in that House, and of every
man of first-rate talent. After apologising for so long
detaining the attention of the House, he moved
" Thsx a Select Committee be appointed to take into congidera-
=o,ll the state of Ireland,• and report their opinions thereon to
fire

Sir lI.PARN'FAL and Mr. Gil ATTAN rose toge-
ther; the latter gave way, and Sir H. Parnell com-
menced his observations by erpressing his sense of gra-
,:itude to the Noble Lord for the speech he had just de-
livered, and for the spirit he always manifested (.11 pies-
concei 'ling the state of Ireland. He required that
!o be done in Ireland Which vvis done in other coon-
!ries. Means should be afrurded for the employment
of the people. The Excise Laws and the Chili ch should
become subjects of inquiry, and he had no &Ann that
Ireland, under proper management, and if tinily en-
couraged, "cold yield a surplus revenue of three Or
four millions per annum. The Honourable Baronet
'concluded by seconding the motion.
Mr. GOULBURN said, that he should not travel
into all the topics alluded to by the Noble Lord.—
hough he should oppose the motion of the Noble
be waslar from wishing to exclude inquiry, when
to ..try could advantageously be directed. Because a

Committee might nvercome many difficulties, the .Noble
Lord seemed to think a difficulty should be imposed
Upon them, which they could not possibly overcome.
Upon this point he would say, that if a Committee were
appointed he saw little hope of coming to a speedy .de-
termination. Let the House consider the subjects that
were to come under their immediAte consideration.
First, the Committee would have to investigate the re-
lation between landlord and tenant, and to point out
how far and in what paints it was capable of regula-
tion; end secondly, the mode of employing the poor,
and of disseminating capital. The employment of the
poor had already been confided to a ,separate Com-
mittee, which pioduce a long report on the subject.
They would have to combine with these a view of ail
the expenses incurred in supporting the present mode of
preserving the tranquillity of the country. They would
have to consider the Church Establishment, whether its
wealth was disproportionate, or whether it promated
the interests of the people. To this was to be added a
review of the tithe system, either as acted upon before or
as altered by the late Acts; also, the state of parties;
and whether the concession of the Roman Catholic
question would not better, if not remove all evils ?
With respect to the last question in particular, he would
ask whether it was fit to be referred to a Select Com-
mittee ? It had been a subject of debate in the House
for the last twenty years. If a Select Committee wa,
the best way of coming to a decision on it, why had
Parliament wasted its time so long ? Not many days
had elapsed since he gave notice that he should move
for a Select Committee to inquire into the disturbances
in those districts that were subject to the Insurrection
Act. As he had hitherto omitted bringing it forward,
he would take the present opportunity of moving it as
an amendment to the motion of the Noble Lord. The
Noble Lord said it was not enough to consider the state
of a few counties only. The Noble Lord's objection
might have some force if the Insurrection Act applied
to a small district only ; but it extended over many
counties, and. those some of the most extensive and po-
pulous in the country. In times, and under circum-
stances in this country that called for laws that could
be justified only by the peculiar state of certain districts,
did the House ever consiJer the disturbances in these
districts a sufficient ground for inquiry into all the cir-
cumstances that might have been supposed to conduce to
the disturbance—into the general state of the country ?
Did it not on the contrary confine itself to the disturbed
district? AN he asked now was to pursue the same course.
He had stated at the commencement of the Session that

if it should be necessary to renew the Insurrection Act,
lie should feel it his duty to propose that it should be
preceded by an inquiry into the disturbed districts.
%%hen he made this statement, the Government of Ire-
land thought they saw a gleam of sunshine that por-
tended a brighter day. It •was not till those hopes were
disappointed that the Noble Lord at the head of the
Government of lielaiid determined that it would be
necessary again to apply to Parliament ter the renewal
of the Insurrection Act. lie would now advert to some
of the subjects touched upon by the Noble Lord, who
had complained, and justly no doubt if he were borne
out by facts, that Roman Catholics were studiously ex-
cluded from those offices to which they were admissible
by law. The Noble Lord, he had no doubt, must have
stated the proposition more strongly than he intended.
As it came in the shape of a charge against the Irish
Government, he thought it necessary to make it the
subject of particular obiervation. He had no hesitation
in sayieg that in every selection made for appointment
to those offices to which Roman Catholics were admis-
sible, consideration of the religion of parties was
allowed to interteie. The. individuals best fitted to the
office were appoinr.:3 without regard to religion. For
himself he would say, that in a majority of cases he was
utterly unconscious of the religion of the parties, and
should have remained so to that hour were it not for a
late discussion on the subject brought forward in that
House. Had the Noble Lord referred to the documents,
he would have seen that in the appointments to the
Police enough appeared to shew that no principle of
exclusion had been acted upon, and that' the selection.
was as fair, as could have been expected. The number
of Protestants appointed was 1800, and of Catholics
about 900. Bot even their comparative number
did not afford an accurate list of the disposition of
the Government. It shewed, however, no disinclina-
tion to give their fair share to the Roman Catholics.
It was stated, that in legal appointments also the Lord
Lieutenant did nut attend to the claims and met its of the
Human Catholics. That he denied. No one had been
excluded on the ground of his professing the Roman
Catholic religion. The Noble Lord would not contend
that appointments should be made, merely with refer-
ence to the number of the Roman Catholics, and not
to qualification. No man could exercise the appoint-
ments without seeing that a principle of exclusion bad
not been acted on, but of the small amount of those
offices to which the Lord Lieutenant had the appoint-
ment, 8,7001. was conferred on different Barristers, and
of that 3,0001. was held by a Roman Catholic. This
being the case, the House would see that the Govern-
ment had most unfairly been made the subject of obloquy.
Another subject introduced was the Church. On a pre-
ceding evening he had not had an opportunity of stating
his opinions upon it, nor would he enter at large now
into the question. Before they agreed with the Noble
Lord that the wealth of the Church of Ireland was too
great., they should consider whether it was not benefi-
cial to the people. He admitted that it was amply and
liberally endowed ; but considering the
.double duty the
Clergy had to perform, that of Ministers of the Gospel
and of a resident Gentry, it seemed necessary that their
funds should be ample. As to all that had been said
about parties in Ireland, lie would most readily Confess
that to one of th?ni lie would address his earnest en-
treaties that they would desist from proceedings fraught
with inevitable mischiefs to their country; and to the
Orangemen he would say," Abandon a system, the evil
effects of which now produce disquiet in the kingdom,
and may, ultimately, revert upon your own heads"—
(Liem.).—T:iiiiking that the course he should propose
wa; calculated to produce the utmost benefit that Ire-
. land could derive from this sort of proceeding, he should
move as an amendment, to leave out all the words of
the original 'notion, after the word " into," and to sub-
. , stitute in their stead these—,6 The nature and extent of
I the distui tyunces that have prevailed in those districts of
[lreland whith are now subject to the operation of the
Insuriection Act"--(1Iear).
Mr. Secretary CANNING seconded the amendment.
Lord MILTON said, that from his experiente ut the.
conduct of the Irish Government for many years, he did
not expect the Right Honourable tieatletnan (W. GOul-
. burn) would. agree to the Motion of his Noble Friend.
He knew that he would- endeavour. by a side-wind to
get rid of the questiOti of' a ge-ieral. itiquiry iittO
.the
L state of freiaud. It a sisistake tri suppose thaithert

was but .littlefrom which Roman Catholics were ex-
.
eluded. the exchisiOn of the higher orders from Par-
liament inflicted a 'stigma .on the lower. The !owest
peasant felt the exclusion of the Peer as a grievance in-
flicted on himself. There was a great variety of offices
from which the middle and the lower classes were shut
out. A gallant Officer, the Member for Fermanagh
(General A rchtl4ll), said that the Pi Otestant and Orange-
man were synonimous, and that it was necessary for
them to unite in their own defence. Was this a state of
things in which Ireland could be well governed? Was
it not a state produced by law—by six centuries of mis-
government ? The'effect of the law was to make five-
sixths of the population slaves, and the other sixth
tyrannous oligarchy. It was impossible that tranquil-
lity could exist under such circumstances ; it was not
fit that people should submit under such a system to be
governed at all. The object of the Ribbonmen was raid
to be separation and the massacre of the Protestants.—
He was satisfied that Ireland never could be govet ned as
it ought to be, until the people of England were better
acquainted with the causes of di,content in that country;
and it was because he thought the state of Ireland re-
quired to be made knawn to the people el England that
he supported the :notion of hi; Noble Friend.
Mr. NORTH said, it was impossible not to see the
source in which the disturbaeces of Ireland had
their origin. Sometimes their evils were imputed to
disease, sometimes to famine, and sometimes to a die.
ference of-religions opinion ; but we real source was
the hopeless poverty, the deeper ate ignorance of the
people, who had gone on for ages in the same course of
tumultuous barbarisms—wave succeeding wave—the'
country never thoroughly c,enerereol—the war began
by Strongbuw left utainished even by Eliz
the Reformation, which, it rrieht have been hoped,
would have soothed some of these irritations, had but
festered the wound; and could it now expected that
wounds which had been festering for ages, could be
cured in half an hour? One of the evils of Ireland
was said to be abundant population. lie should rather
call it insufficient employment. There had been many
remedies proposed for this evil. He must confess he
was most inclined to favour emigi ation on an extensive
scale. Ile preferred this for many reasons, one of which
was, because it would meet the wishes of the People.
His countrymen were known to be fund of change—
they were continually looking for
" Some safer world in depths of woods embrac'd,
Some happier Island in the wat'ry waste."
Next to emigration, he would employ the influence of
the Catholic Clergy ; and to render this more effectual,
he would make them more respectable. He would.
raise their income, and they should receive that income
through the hands of Government. As to the Protest-
ant Church Establishment of Ireland, he was decidedly
of opinion that it was productive of the greatest advan-
tage to Ireland. An Archbishop of loam, or a Bishop
of Ferns, with 8 or 10,0001. a year, resident in Ireland,
did much more good than a Duke of Leinster, a Duke
of Devonshire, or any other Nobleman.of large fortune,
who very seldom indeed, if ever, even Visited for a short
period, much less resided amongst his tenants, and of
whom, in many cases, all they knew, w as, that some-
times they saw his name in the Newspapers, as having
made a speech in Parliament on the state of Ireland.
As to the present motion, it embraced too much to do
any good. The cause of Ireland was the cause of the
Government, which alone could benefit her ; and he
trusted it would please PROVIDENCE to warm their
hearts with a liberal policy towards Ireland. He was
grateful to them for what they had already done—the
system of free trade adopted towards her, the Quarter
Sessions, and other recently adopted' measures, had
dune much good to Ireland ; but :menthe cure of the
evils of Ireland could only be effected -by the country
gentlemen of Ireland; and more than that, if they ex-
pected to reform Ireland, they must begin by refofming
themselves.. Let them not suffer others to have the task
of probing the wounds of Ireland ; if they did, they
must expect thine would be probed roughly. Let them
manfully coMeTorward and do their own duty, And
they would soon see Ireland start forth Ma newtareer
•
of happiness and prosperity.
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that-for one, he would-de-
precate any inquiry within the narrow limits prescribed
by the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. North.) If'ester there was
a period when a prOeier ins:Wry .rould.bc made with-
safety into the affairs of Ireland it was the present. if
it were deferred the House would-be etaaain to lose an
opportunity of doing much good, without doing any evil.
Mr. STANLEY said, that the Hon. Gentleman op-
posite (Mr. North) had drawn a melancholy picture of
the state of Ireland, whose miseries he bad declared
were not casual, but appeared to be inseparable
from the nation. The only way in which he had I
endeavoured to meet the question was, by contending
that they were of too extensive a nature to be remedied ;
and he therefore proposed to leave behind to her soli-
tary and unregarded misery. But he (Mr. Stanley)
would ask, if there were no good to be anticipated
from the inquiry, what advantage could possibly arise
horn the amendment? _ _ _

Sir JOHN SEBRIGHT supported the original mo-
tion, and objected entirely to trusting the affair to the
management of the executive Government.
Sir F. BUILDETT said, that after the very poWerfal
and eloquent appeal of his Noble Friend, he owned he
had expected to have heard one of his Majesty's Minis-
ters deliver his sentiments upon a subject which was
confessedly of such deep importance. In that hope he
had been disappointed; and 'the only drawback to his
disappointment was the speech of the Honourable Gen-
tleman opposite (Mr. North), which he allowed was
highly eloquent, and couched in btilliant language, but
which he hoped he should not be accused of any want
of candour or liberality if he described as inconsistent as
it was eloquent. Such w as its inconsistence, in fact,
that he felt he owed an apology to the House, for rising
to answer that which was .::n answer to itself. The
speech of the Honourable and Learned Gentleman wa,
in fact, a librated antithesis, where one statement was'
counteracted by another, and the effect of one argu-
meat destroyed by that which immediately succeedej
it. The Honourable and Learned Gentleman had •
drawn a very eloquent and :,ignly coloured, and he
(Sir Francis Burdett) had no doubt a very faithful
picture of the melancholy situation of Ireland. He
dwelt upon her distresses, and he declared it as his
opinion that the causes of the evils unuer which she
laboured should be probed to the bottom ; and yet in
the next breath be deprecated inquiry, and voted for
the amendment of the Right Honourable Gentleman—
an amendment which he (Sir Francis Burdett) thought
'it disgraceful to append to such a motion as that of his
Noble Friend. The Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man had stated- that such was the situation of his coun-
ts-yr-lien, that they hail nothing to fear or hope. This
was in his (Sir 1. Burdett e) opinion a tolerably exact

L'e4itition gf,despair, and rek the
:•
man resisted inquiffinfo-tliFtiitT o tii^sue!:es •
. :9L tst
r produced such a feeling. The lfonourah.e:BA• t,
.:, .1
proceeded to repeat' the argument used by him .•.i
former night in favour of colonization, and atriti.
called to the recollection of English Genzleaen t
nearly one half of the Poors' hale rai'sed in this coun:ry
was appropriated to the relief of tke -Irish paupeis.
Under all the circumstances of Ireland at present, he
was convinced if they did not now come to full inquiry,
they might at once bid good night to all inquiry, for
never was the time more favourable than now, and
never were the reasons for inquiry more imperious and
commanding. The Honourable B.ironet sat douin,
saying for these reasons he should vote for the motkin
of the Noble Lord.

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, that this JCRs the second • •
occasion within a short period, on which the Honour.
able Baronet opposite had expressed his dissatisfaction. •
at the silence observed by Ministers. The Honourable
Baronet, however, should in justice remember, that
(upon the point of speaking) he had greatly 'the ad-
vantage over those of whom he complained. Coming
down, after a long absence front the House, with a keen
appetite fur debate, he ought to consider that the feast
would naturally be less tempting to those who were
presented with it night after night, and sometimes, in-
deed, risque ad nauseam. The !tight Hon. Sect etary,
in coming to the question before the House, observed,
that it seemed to him to be within a very narrow com-
pass. The subject for discussion, as he thought, was
much less the general state of Ireland, than the comple
raises met its of the two courses which were pieposed by
his Right Hon. Friend near him and by the Noble Lord
opposes.. For ch party proposed a Select Cosimittee, and
it weitild be well to examine the diffsrence between their •
vices. The Noble Lord (Lord Althorp) wished to in-
q lire into the state of Ireland sseneral:y ; his Right
Ilan. Feiend (Mr. Goulburn) to take the nature and ex-
tele of the disturbance's which existed in certain districts.
firese was no question they efmre as to the inquiry—the
aniy question was as to its extent. Here was Ire-
land, then, great part of which was subject only to the
ordinary operation of the law ; same part of it enjoying
perfect teanquillity;•othets comparatively tranquil, an'd
other parts in a state of the greatest possible disorder,
kept down, and indeed scarcely kept down, by measures
of great and unconstitutional severity. When the Right
Honourable Secretary said-4! I will take for the imme-
di.te object of this inquiry the state of those parts of
the country in which the law is at present stisi ended,"
did he not take that which was the natural, and cer-
tainly the candid course? Did not those portions of
Ireland call more urgently for present examination than
the quiet parts? Let the House only look at the extent
of teeritory to which the Right Ilonourable Gentleman's
plan referred, embracing the counties of Clare, Cork,
Limerick, Kerry, Kilkenny, Kildare, the King's County,
and Tipperary. Would any man who knew the size, po-
pulation, rind importance of those counties say that they
did net afford a fair specimen of Ireland generally
Much had been said of the indisposition of Government
to Elting the present question forward ; but he denied•
that any measures had been proposed in which Minii.
ters had not been found ready to go hand in hand. The
constant answer to complaints of the state of Ireland
had been, 4 Point out the object of inquiry, and we are
ready to discuss it with you." But he (Mr. Peel) was
surprised to hear the abuse which had been lavished
upon the amendment of his Right Honourable Friend.;
for the very inquiry which that Gentleman's amend-
ment suggested, bad been formally proposed to the
House last Sees'on, by the Honousable Baronet who
now seconded the. original motion. The Right Hen.
Gentleman defended at some length the Government
and the House from any charge of indifference to the
fate of Ireland, and reminded the House of the various
important measures .wl;icti had been adopted in the
course of the last seven years, for the amelioration and
benefit of that country, especially with respect to educa-
tythes,.the magistracy; and illicit distillation.
Mfr. Secretary CANNING rosé, not wishing to add
any, atguments to the discussion, hut chiefly because
he caulii not jiiitify it to his. mind to let the invitations
of the, Niiible Leird pass by without some notice on his
part. Referringto ate allifsici of the Noble Mover to
one question which the Noble•Loed admitted to be not
the fittest subject fog inquiry by-the labours of-a Com-
mittee, and eeliich- yei he seemed to consider as a ques-
tion which it immediately concerned the House and the.
Government to consider, the Noble Lord seemed also
to suppose that he (Mr. Canning) was imperiously called
' upon to step forward in support of it at this particular
time. Now for hirrielf, he must be allowed to say, that
he took no view of that great question which was at ail
likely to induce hint to go at present into the discussion
of it, without some superior provocation to that implied
in the argument of the Noble Lord. For his own part,
his opinions on that great subject remained exactly the
same as they had always been. Did the Noble Lord
come to him for any proof of the sincerity of his opinions
upon it? In the first place, lie denied that his cosidutt
or language on any occasion had furnished reasons her
suspecting his sincerity; in the second place, he denied
that the Noble Lord had any right to demand such pledges.
Ile for one, in the suppert which he had given the Ca-
tholics, had always taken care cot to put himself in their
hands. Whatever others who had advocated their cause
might have chosen to do, he had always abstained hone
consulting them as to the propriety re edvancing or re-
fraining in the measures which i deerned necessary to
their interests. His conduct thieht i•e considered right
or wrong ; but in all his operations he had abitainede--
studiously, purposely, anxiously abstained—from beitig
bound by their views and opinions in. the-discharge of
a duty which he considered not so much their affair as
that if the Public. He. did not blame those who acted
in a different manner; but he had always felt, and con-
tinued to (*Lel, that he neither owed, eor would he ever
give to theta, any account as to !;is conduct whether i.e
advanced or abstained front the pursuit of that object
in which the-Catholics were chiefly implicated. As to
others, Ile knew not by what tight the Noble Lord
claimed of him that he should take this or that step et
that or this particular time. Ile u"ts bound by no
agreement with any one on the subject. He hal* re-
ceived the suppOrt of many, but ssithout conditions.
Ile hastened, however, to translate into plain language
the motion of the Noble Lord. He said thaV the
Government was divided upon the .subject of the
Catholic question ; and he stated thef as a charai:-
teristic of the present Government, as if if were
wine:hi:lgs new in the cousouction of this Govern-
ment. He would tell the Nol•le Lord, that since the
quthien had biSen a 'cleestion, no Government htd
been biouBht together winch was not .ivided upon it.
fie did not say whether this was tight or wrong Cfrit--
ctuanmacteiloatouthnicrwtuontlatz.as d:rtiedresr: happen; the
4tfeittqaluitt;teioint

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