Star.
London, England, 1831-03-23 00:00:00

REFORM.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL moved the order of the day for morning
the adjourned debate on the second reading of the reform in parliament
bill. He lamented that there was not sufficient time to receive all the
petitions on the subject, but he thought it still more important that
the discussion should be brought to a conclusion. (Hear, hear.)
Sir G. CLERK said, he had a petition to present, signed by six
hundred of the most respectable inhabitants of Edinburgh, against the
plan of reform proposed by ministers. With respect to the petitions
presented last night, signed by thirty-two thousand persons, he could
state, as a fact, that it was signed by the youths of Edinburgh many
times over. A boy, fourteen years of age, a near relative of his own,
complained that he had been only able to sign the petition sixteen times,
and one of his school-fellows had signed it forty times. (A laugh.)—
The house were kept in ignorance of the plan as far as Ireland was con-
cerned. The Bill for Ireland should be laid on the table, that the plan
might be judged of as a whole.
Mr. WARD lamented that he ass precluded by the disposition to
resume the debate, from presenting a petition, signed by several hun-
dred merchants of London, against the ministers' plan of reform.—
(Hear, hear.)
Sir THOMAS BARING thought it most important that the semi-
ments of the people should be known in the house; and if only peti.
tions from counties were received, and without observation there would
be time to receive them all ; and if the people were appealed to, the
answer would come from the people to the noble lord's heart's dis-
content. (Hear.)
Mr. BANKES, junior, said, a petition had been agreed to by the
University of Cambridge, against the bill ; he was surprised it had not
been presented.
Mr. CAVENDISH said, he heard that a petition had been agreed
to at the University of Cambridge, against certain parts of the bill ; he
believed It had not yet reached them.
Mr. HUM E said, he had two petitions from counties to present, but
did not wish to delay the debate.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL said, he was extremely anxious to
have the petition from the University of Cambridge presented. The
noble lord, member for the University, and one of his Majesty's minis-
ters should have presented it.
Lord: A LTHORP said, his noble friend had not read the pe-
tition. (Hear, hear.)
A MEMBER said, he understood from the right honourable
member for Armagh (Mr. Goulburn) that he had got the peti-
tion. (A great laugh.)
Mr. CALCRAFT said he intended to vote fur the second read-
ing of the bill (Great cheering) ; but he must request that time
should be allowed, to receive all the petitions of the people in this
stage of the bill. He hoped that all the petitions now in the house
would be received.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said his right honourable friend had put
his request in such an agreeable manner, that he should withdraw
his motion, and agree to the presentation of petitions till seven
o'clock. (Hear, and a laugh.)
Mr. F. PALMER presented a petition from Reading, fur the plan
of Reform, proposed by minister/.
Mr. PEEL presented a petition from Norwich, against the plan of
Reform proposed by :Ministers.
Lord STANLEY presented petitions in favour of the plan of Re-
form proposed by Ministers, from Warrin;ton, Stockport, Salford,
Blackburn. and t"o other places.
Mr. SANDFORD presented eleven petitions from places in Somer-
set, in favour of the plan of Reform, proposed by Ministers.
Lord EBRINOTON presented a similar petition from Bethnal-
green, signed by 7,000; and similar petitions from Plymouth, Devon-
port, Ashbumham, Axminster, and IlCYclt other places in Devon.
Sir THOMAS ACKLAND said since the bill was brought in the
Corporation of Plymouth had trebled their numbers by their own act,
and in the most impartial manner.
Mr. W. HOWARD presented a similar petition from Worthing.
Lord VILLIERS presented a petition from Rochester, against the
plan of Reform proposed by Ministers.
Mr. BERNAL said the petitioners only objected to the disfranchise-
ment of a portion of the present freemen of Rochester.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL presented a petition from Andover
in favour of the Bill for Reform before the House; and a similar pe-
tition from Monmouth. _

Mr. HUNT presented similar petitions from Whitchurch and El.
dersby.
Mr. S. RICE presented a similar petition from Limerick.
Lord ALTHORP said the Bill for Ireland was prepared, and would
be speedily introduced.
Mr. GEORGE DAWSON said the people of Ireland felt indig-
nant at the manner in which they were treated, in not having the bill
for Ireland brought before the house.
Mr. O'CONNELL said the people of Ireland were exceedingly de-
lighted at the plan of Reform brought forward by ,Ministers; and he
would have between three and four hundred petitions to present in fa-
vour of it. Hear, hear.)
Mr. 3100 RE said no measure ever struck such horror and dismay
in Ireland as the reform proposed by ministers. He had no doubt it
was approved of by that portion of the people the learned gentleman
represented; but there was a powerful influential portion a the intel-
ligent Irish people opposed to the vote.
Col. TRENCH said the people of Ireland were relying on the mem.
ber for Waterford for carrying such a plan of reform as he had pro.
posed. He was anxious to have the Irish bill before the house.
Mr. BROWNLOIV said be was anxious that the bill for Ireland
should be laid on the table and circulated in Ireland, as he was con-
fident it would give universal satisfaction. The north of Ireland, of
which the member for Waterford was not the peculiar representative,
had universally petitioned in favour of reform of parliament; and yet
the hon. member for Dublin jumped up and told the house it was only
with those represented by the hon. member for Waterford that reform
was popular.
Mr. AIOORE said he did not mean to say so much.
Mr. STANLEY reprobated the factious opposition of the honourable
baronet, and his pretended ignorance of the measure. 14e ( Mr. S.) had
no doubt but when the measure was fully developed, that it might not,
perhaps, meet with the unlimited approbation of the hon, baronet, but
he was certain that it would obtain front the people of Ireland confi.
dence in his Majesty's ministers. The general principle of the area.
sure had been laid before the house sufficiently ample to be understood
by every one—it was to give both to Ireland and Scotland a real fur a
fictitious representation. It would be unnecessary to disturb the house
further on the subject of the other countries if the present bill was lost,
for their general principles were the same.
Sir G. CLERL strongly denied that he had been actuated by party
feeling.
Mr. D. BROWNE said, he was perfectly sad-died with the mea-
sure for Ireland, and so he could assure the house was the general feel-
ing in Ireland. He was astonished at the petition that had been re-
amed with authority from Waterford, by the hon. member for Edin-
burgh, in opposition to the sentiments on the subject of the honouu-
ble member for Waterford, who had by far the better opportunity of
knowing the sentiments of the people. The hon. member repeated,
that the bill had his utmost approbation, and he was confident that his
sentiments were reiterated by all classes, Orangemen and Catholics, In
Ireland.
A M EMBER, whose name we could not Irun, expressed his dissa-
tisfaction of the general principles of the bill.
Lord L. GOWER contended that the bill for Ireland ought to be
produced, and added that he did not believe that it was yet prepared,
and that Ministers had been taken by surprise, as he (Lord L. G.) was
of opinion that they never expected the measure, which they had
brought forward, would have passed the first reading. (Cheers from the
opposition.)
Sir C. WETHERELL thought the bill had not yet seen the light,
but Instead of consulting those whom they ought to have advised with,
the ministers had probably entered into some diplomatic approximation
with the lion. member for Waterford on the subject. (Hear, hear,
from Mr. O'Connell repeatedly) There might be some tendency—
(hear, hear, from Mr. O'Connell)—the hon. member did not like to
hear of the word tendency; but the situation in which his Majesty's
Government had been situated with the hon. member was strongly
changed ; for instead of the iroceedings that had been instituted
against him, their arms had seemed to enlarge, and Ministers and he
were shaking hands with each other from their places across the table.
(Hear, from the Opposition.)—and the learned Solicitor General on
the opposite side was so hearty in his approval, that he had exultingly
cheetcd the hon. member for Waterford. This looked something like
diplomatic approximation, particularly when it was recollected the
correspondence that had passed between them, which had been laid be-
fore the house.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL said, that enough of the bill re-
lating to Ireland had been disclosed, that the hon. gentleman might
have understood it; and he reminded the house that the hon. member
for Waterford had animadverted upon it at great length. Be repro-
bated the conduct of the learned baronet as a lawyer, making any allu-
sion to the prosecution that was pending over the hon. member for Wa-
terford ; it had been alluded to last night in a similar manner, and the
learned baronet had reiterated it. The Attorney General denied that
any negortation had taken place between the hon. member and the go-
vernment. When talking of diplomatic approximation he (the Atter.
ney General) could not help looking at the opposite bench. How and-
cable the approximation was he could not tell, but the approximation
that had there been exhibited was not a little remarkable.—On the Sm.

bee duty question—(bear, hear, flew the Opposition)—they bad, by
an anouuslous approximation, left Ministers in a minority;—(hear,
from the Opposition)— and they were peoud of it—(sheen ifrom the
Opposition.) He (the Attorney General) regretted the situation that
the hon. member for Waterford had been placed in. It was not the
fault of the present, but of the late administration the circumstance of
those proceedings taking place. They had not settled the Catholic
question so as to leave no Catholic question behind ; but they had
left one individual, and one alone, excluded from the privileges which
he ought to have enjoyed. (Hear, hear.) Public officers he knew
were always closely watched, but he had never known that any public
officer had been brought to account for cheering a sentiment of which
he might happen to approve when he heard it uttered. ( Hear. hear.)
He thought that his learned friend had a little forgotten himself when
he had indulged in these remarks in his speech. (Calls of Question.)
Mr. GOULBURN would not enter into detail to confute the alle-
gations against the late administration which had been thrown out by
the learned Attorney General; hut he denied the justness of the im-
putation.
Mr. C. P. THOMSON rose amidst loud cries of "Question,
question." He said that, from the frequent allusion to the timber
duty he felt himself called upon to declare that, although that measure
had been defeated by the assistance of the late administration, upon
good assurance he could inform the house, that it was the intention
of the late administration to have adopted a similar measure them-
selves.—(Cries of No, no, from the Opposition, and Question from
others.)
Mr. H RRRILS denied that such an intention had ever existed.
The honourable member said that the Right Honourable Secretary
could produce no written document to prove it. (Cries of " Ques-
tion, question.")
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he bad been made so much the topic of
conversation of the night, that be thought he had a right to be heard,
but he would be as short as possible.—(Question, question.) The ex-
Attorney-General had assailed both the government and him. As a
lawyer he ought to have acted otherwise than alluding to the proceed.
ings in the manner he had done. He (Mr. O'Connell) was a lawyer him.
self, but he was happy that be was not a member of the same bar with
the ex-Attorney-General. (Hear.) It was the custom: of the bar of
which he had the honour to be a member, not to press on any prosecu.
tion. Such might suit the purpose of the lowest description of Old
Bailey solicitors, but it was considered unworthy of the more elevated
stations of the profession. The Learned ex-Attorney-General had
taxed him (Mr. O'C.) with arrogance; he bad heard the Learned
Gentlemen express nimself, he would not call it arrogance, but it was
tt. much like arrogance as any thing that he had ever heard, when he
chose to use words without meaning, clamour without argument, and
sound without sense. (Hear) He ( Mr. O'Connell) complained that
his words had been misconstrued in his observations on the measure;
he had merely said, that he liked the bill, as it would be the means of
obtaining fur Ireland good government, which was all that she wished
for. The lion. Member spoke in the most contemptuous terms of the
repeated allusions that had been made to the Learned Attorney General
opposite having cheered him (Mr. O'Connell.) He said, that if he had,
by any diplomatic approximation-4a laugh) been associated with the
hon. Bart. (Sir C. IV.) and his colleague+ that he would have been ready
to have chevred him too, if lie had stood up to advocate oppression,
the continuance of abuses, (Hear, hear) and had drawn the line of de-
marcation, and said, thus far shall ye go and no farther ; all that is
wrong, that exists, must remain here for ever—if he expressed himself
in these terms, then would the learned baronet have echoed the cheer,
and would have given the box on the table a blow by way of argument.
(Hear, hear, and laughter.) And these were gentlemen who talked of
conscience—conscience, indeed, when they would allow the rights of the
people to be swallowed up. (Cries of " No, no," from the Opposition.)
He (Mr. O'Connell) denied that he hal made any compromise with
Government, or they with him. He said that the spoliators ought to
have let him alone ; but it was the last struggle of the rotten fabric,
which was, thank Heaven ! about to tumble down about their ears.
(Hear.) The hon. member, after repeating his approval of the bill, sat
down amidst loud cheers. _ _ _

Sir C. WETHERELL, in explanation, alluded with some warmth
to the insinuations of the hon. member to his want of argument and his
&ficiency of words, and said he would confine himself solely to the
word "spoliation,' which he thonght came with a bad grace from the
lips of the hon. member for Waterford. He (Sir Charles Wetherell)
could point out a man who had handed a begging-box round his own
impoverished country (cries of hear, hear, and oh, oh), the begging-
box was handed round, and two pence was wrung rom the poor man,
and a penny from the ragged man (cries of hear, hear, and oh, oh); this
was the contribution that had been raised for the hon. member for 'Wa-
terford. (Cries of question, question.)
111 r. O'CONNELL, with difficulty, amidst the Cliff/ for question,
obtained permission to explain. He said, he acknowledged that his
country was poor, but it was generous—(hear, hear)—and he had had no
hand, directly or indirectly, himself, in the raising of the tribute, but
he expended more money in the service of his country than the-le:riled
gentleman had ever earned by his profession. (Hear, hear.) iFle had
abandoned a practice worth seven thousand pounds a year, besides hav-
ing devoted more time for the last twenty years in Its service than he
could easily value. He had at one time from his own pocket supported
the expense of the necessary agitation for Catholic emancipation.—
(Hear, from the Opposition.)
Sir R. PEEL said, he thought it better that this description of de-
bate should terminate, and the important question be gone into.
Mr. NORTH stood on the floor for several minutes, and made nu.
merous attempts to speak, but he was compelled to relinquish his de.
sign, overpowered by the calls of " Question, question."
Tile order of the day was then moved, that the adjourned debate on
the reform bill be resumed.

...., .-
Lord MAHON could not support a measure which was nothing i
less than a new modelling—(a laugh)—of the Constitution. He denied 1
that were they to count the illustrious dead, they would, as had been i
asserted, find a majority on that (the Ministerial) side. The great
men alluded to were all attached to different grades, all conflicting in
their modes of reform. Hon. Members opposite wished to satisfy the
people : were they prepared to vote against the civil list, the army
estimates, the asserted taxes, the accumulation of which the peti-
tioners for reform put forth as the ground of their prayer. He con-
tended that the destruction of the boroughs would, by lessening the
pre-eminence of the county Members, diminish among the others
elected with the desire to attain that rank a powerful motive for
exertion and display of talent. (Hear, bear, hear.) It was on a
restlessness to change practical advantages for theoretical perfection,
that originated the present feeling in favour of Reform—a feeling
which had existed among the French previous to their revolution,
and had brought such results on that unfortunate country. He
asked those who objected to the theory of the boroughs, to point
but that law which, however well It worked, did not contain in the ab-
stract some ridiculous absurdity.—(Hear.) The system of intimidation
had certainly been adopted with respect to hon. members, if not in, at
least out of doors.—(Hear.) If there were discontent, the ministers had
created it,ioy bringing the country to a position where, he admitted, it
was difficult to stop with safety, but beyond which it would be impoi.
sible to proceed without ruin.—(Hear.) If the minister lied done half
so much to tranquilize, as he had done to bewilder the people. they
would have heard nothing of the present discontent.—( Hear.) lie
hoped they would hear no more of hon members being opposed to re-
form, because they opposed the reform of ministers. As well might it
be said that those who did not support the retrenchments of the hon.
member for Middlesex were averse to all retrenchment. It was their
duty to protect the true interests, not to gratify the desires and preju-
dices, of the people. He could tell ministers that they would not force
hear. members to vote for them by intimidation; if they did he would
neither envy the voters their feelings nor ministers their triumph.
Sir J. SHELLEY would begin by frankly stating that the majority
of his constituents were in favour of the present measure. He himself
opposed it as unjust, fallacious, and revolutionary. It disfranchised
sixty boroughs, despoiling more particularly the lower orders. In the
borough which he represented, out of 800 houses who had a vote, no
less than 400 would be disfranchised. It was fallacious, because while
it was believed to confer a boon on the landed interest, it conferred it in
reality on the manufacturing interest ; the large towns would outvote
the counties. It was revolutionary, because its consequence would be
the destruction of two of the states of the realm. Having these feelings
on the subject, he should vote against the bill, even at the hazard of
losing his seat.
Mr. CAVENDISH was authorised from a communication with the
members of the Senate at Cambridge, to state that many of those who
had agreed to a resolution against the present measure, had done so, not
from objecting to disfranchisement, but because they considered the
elective franchise in the boroughs to be placed too low. He proceeded
to say, that though none felt more deeply than he did that this country
had been fortunate beyond the common lot of nations, he could not
understand how that prosperity was made to rest on the present system.
--(Hear, hear.) They had been told that the interests, not the feelings,
of the people were to be considered ; but it was his conviction that with-
out the confidence of the people government could have no stability.
Nor would the dissatisfaction fail to go on increasing so long as
the members of that house had the power of conducting affairs with no
consideration for the public good. If the dissatisfaction were 'mo-
thered for a time, it would burst out on every new occasion with aug-
mented violence. With respect to revolution it was only to be appre-
hended in the continuance of a system which gave to certain portions
of the community interests decidedly at variance with the general inter-
ests of the people. He could not be swayed by gloomy forebodings of
the downfall of the aristocracy ; he could not believe them so re-
duced that they must stand or fall by the nomination boroughs. Far
from that, he believed that reform would add to their stability, by
making them rely on the more solid security of the affections of the
people.
Mr. W. ORMSBY GORE—An hoe. and eloquent member had
appealed to the sepulchres of the dead ; he (Mr. W. Gore) would,
under leave of the house, evoke into the precincts of St. Stephen's the
spirit of the most illustrious of them, of the great advocate of the cons
stitution, the spirit of Sir Wm. Blackstone. (Much laughter.) The
introduction of copyholders into elections, which was the least obja-
, tionable part of the proposed innovation, war considered by Sir Wm.
, Blackstone as tantamount to removing the superstructure of the consti-
tution, and erecting another in its place. What then would he say
, were he to arise from his grave—(alaugh).—at hearing that sixty-three

members of that house were to be ousted from their places ntva
t°
be returned ? What would he say to the destruction of the chartists
and corporations ? He should like to hear defended the spirit of in.-
Ciality limb had presided over the distribution of the ti:einb,,,
eounty of Wilts was to send 23 members while the
'fry of Wales was to send only the same number. The
Glamorgan, with 50,753 male inhabitants, sent one member to parkof
meat, while Northumberland, with about 00,000 was to be nno„a:,,
four representatives. Was that justice ? If the government were n,
new modelled, for Ood's sake let them have impartiality. Was w,i,s
well treated ? Wales which had ever been the most loyal part of tl'e
kingdom ? He must say that Wales had never been properly
of in that house; it was a most important part of the kingdom.
(Laughter.) He declared that he would yield nothing; he weak
resist to the utmost the shameful dereliction of principle which ells,
sacterized this bill. It was any thing but an impartial and a just
bill. He had not opposed its introduction, but now that he nae Gee,
'
it, he should resist it altogether. He had not desired to trouble the:
house, after such extended discussion, with any observations, except he
thought he could say something new. (A laugh.) Lord Burleigh, be
it recollected, had declared, that " England could never be ruined,
except by its Parliament." (Loud cheers from the Ministerial side.)
Now, when be saw such a sweeping plan of reform wandering through
the land, he feared that the prophecy was about to be realized. (Hele.l
He trusted that it would not be so. He also complained of the time
selected for bringing forward this plan. When revolutions were agi.
eating the whole continent .when all was unsettled—the ministers had
proposed their measure. The time was as ill judged as the 10MJUTT
was unjust.
Captain POLHILL briefly addressed the house, and was understood
to express his decided approbation of the bill.
Mr. WARD (one of the City Members) said he was bound to stet,
that a very large proportion of his constituents approved of this bill_
(bear,) and consequently entertained opinions very different front hi.
own on the subject. He lamented that fact, but at the same time is
would have been unfair towards his Majesty's ministers to withhold tin
avowal of it.—(Hear.) But though he did this act of justice towards;:
large proportion of his constituents, he had a still more import,..•
duty to perform, to take care that he did not abandon the inters:,
of those who agreed in opinion with him, and who had confided :..
him to support and represent their sentiments. And it was the mat,
Incumbent on him to perform this duty, because he held a petitio:
signed by 000 of the bankers, merchants, &c. of London, which he
had been unable to present. That being the case, he was obliged
to avail himself of this opportunity to express his antiments, and
to do his duty towards those whose petition he had not been able to
present. As to those petitioners lie had to state, that they were inde.
pendent—that they were qualified to judge of a question like the pre-
sent, and they had much at stake. It was matter, therefore, of the
deepest interest to them. It was a question to them whether the ex.
listing institutions of the country should be maintained, or whether all
was to be left to a future and a differently constituted parliament—to a
parliament not elected on any principles that had stood the test of ex-
perience, but from elements that were up to that moment unknown. In
the earlier part of the evening the house had extended considerable atten.
tion to the feeling observations of a gallant admiral (Sothcron), who ex
pressed the pain with which he differed from old connexions and a
jocity of his constituents, and perhaps a somewhat similar consideration
would be extended to the peculiar situation in which be was placed.
(Hear.) He trusted he was the last man who would be indifferent either
to the people or to his constituents. However, whatever intimidation
might be resorted to he must use his own judgment. Whether the
people ought to have a larger portion in the government of the country
than they now had—a portion under which, he thanked God, the people
had hitherto enjoyed a large share of liberty—might be a fit questic::
to raise ; but being raised, it was one on which he was justified in cur.
eising his judgment. Now, with regard to the contemplated impose.
ments, if the measure in question would not greatly contribute to tin
benefit of the people, then he apprehended it must fall to the ground.—
It was his opinion, that it would not promote the Increased b.metit
of the people. In the neighbouthood of the place where he was
born, there happened to be three boroughs, called close boroughs.—
Who had been returned by them? Amongst the Members had
been Alr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, 31r. Sheridan, Mr. Perccval, Mr. Canning,
Lord Palmerston anti the Duke of Wellington. Now, he thought it
would be indeed fortunate if there could be any improvement in the
representation which could give better representatives than those lie had
named. Again—when he entered that house. who were the three mo't
influential members on the Ministerial side ? Mr. Canning, Mr.
Huskisson, and Sir Robert Peel. And who were the three most in-
fluential men on the opposition bench ? Mr. Brougham, Sir. Tierney,
and Sir James Mackintosh. Now, he hesitated not to say, that it
would be a fortunate improvement in the representation that could
secure for them abler and better men as influential men on each side of
the house. So much then for the boroughs, and for the influence they
gave on either side of the house. He would take another view of
the present state of the representation ; he would look to what Mem-
bers had been returned. He would notice three returns—two were
now in the house (Sir F. Burdett and Sir R. Wilson)—and one
(Lord Cochrane) was no longer a Member. To the Hon. Baronet
(Sir F. Burdett) in particular he owed an apology for thus alluding to
him, if he should say any thing that was inconvenient to him, but they
were the only three that had been particularly called to any account, and
they were all the results of popular elections. Now, he hoped they
would forgive him for saying, that he was not quite enamoured of bar.
ing exclusively that system which had returned those members. But it
was said there were persons who were not represented. What sort of
representation was it they desired? Did they require that it should
represent the physical force of the country—its reason—or its passions?
On the good sense of the country he bad the greatest reliance—on its
passions he had none. If the representation were to result from exciting
the passions of the people, the representation must reflect that excite.
tion ; the feeling which impelled the people in that case must produce
a re-action in that house-4 Hear, hear.) He did not wish to shut
out the feelings of the people ; on the contrary, he certainly
wished them to mix with the proceedings of that House. (Hear.)
But no philosophy had yet shown to what extent the popular feelings
might safely and usefully mix with the constitution and proceedings of
that house. It therefore might be permitted to him to doubt the
efficacy of this measure, which he most certainly did. Ile also ob.
jetted to the period at which it wu brought forward. A measure
of so much importance, and so seriously affecting our internal ro-
lky, ought to be brought forward when foreign affairs were less dis-
turbed than they now were. Those were some of his reasons for ob.
jetting to the measure. In alluding to what the Parliament, u re-
formed, would do, it was urged that it would effect reduction of taxa.
tion ; but it was omitted to be stated what the Parliament had done!
The people were often told of the 50.000,0001 taxes that remained ; but
they were not reminded of the 31,000,0001. taxes that had been taken
off. Again, much was said of the patronage; it was right to see
how the patronage worked, and whether it was properly exerted.
There had been conversation about salaries of 501. and 1001, cut down,
but it was omitted to be stated, that within the last nine years 4poo
places had been reduced, 58 of them being of salaries from 1,0001. to
3,0001. a year. He concluded with repeating that he must oppose the
motion. He did so with considerable personal sacrifice of feeling; but
he did so for the unalloyed purpose of doing what he deemed would be
beneficial to the country. (Hear.)
Slr. WYSE supported the bill ; and he did not ask whether it was
or was not a revolutionary measure ; the question with him was its
goodness or badness. This measure would destroy the excrescences
without injuring the vital parts of the constitution ; and as that was the
cue, whether they termed it revolution or not, the sooner they had it
he thought the better it would be. (Cheers)
Sir ROBERT BATESON said, with regard to the plan of reform
introduced by his Majesty's ministers, he agreed in the principles bat
could not in the details.—(Hear,) He agreed with the noble lord on
many points, but differed in others. He did not think that population
ought to be represented so much as property.—( I leer.)—He had two
petitions to present from Londonderry, in favour of the measure. but
he could not support their prayer. His opposition did not arise from
factious motives. (Hear, hear.) When he heard of a bill of teform
he felt anxious to give it his support; but in the measure now
proposed, ministers had shown their total ignorance of the
state of the Irish nation—they appeared to know nothing of the
local circumstances of that country. The relief proposed to Ireland
was not sufficiently considered, he should therefore oppose the second
reading. (Hear, hear.) He would nut, u he understood mans
hon. members intended to do, vote for the second reading to gain Po-
pularity, (hear, hear,) and then strive to fritter away the bill in con:-
allures. (Loud cries of Hear, hear.) If he supported the measure. he
would do it manfully, and if he opposed it, his opposition should he
manful. He could not support the present plan of Reform, but at the
same time he must declare his firm conviction, that whoever might be
Ministers they must introduce some plan of Reform. Whoever might
compose the government, some plan of Reform they would find it re.
ceessry to introduce. The late Administration had brought about all
the present excitement in the country, by not conceding some Reform.
In fact they had incurred a heavy reponsibility.—(Hear.) He did not
object to some rotten boroughs being disfranchised, but he did not sec
any reason to cut off sixty from any participation in the elective fret-
Abe in some of which the voters were as independent as the voters in
London and Westminster.—( Hear.) He was also a reformer as regard,_.e4
all useless places.—(Hear.) And for all pensions granted for useir'4
services, sad all those granted to the fair sex.—(Laughter.) But the
measure of Reform before the house he felt bound to oppose.--(1".
bear.) The boo. baronet sat down amidst loud cries of withdraw, with-
draw adjourn. adjourn.
Lad MOUNTCHARLES, with some difficulty obtained s best.
bag; but the noise in the house, arising from members talking? run'
doted it impossible to hear correctly what the noble lord stared. lit
could not, he said, give a silent vote on this momentous question, feu
public opinion an so strong in favour of neform, that it was impoutbk
not to pant it. (Hear.) He would boldly declare, that if it was
much
lenges delayed, it would be extorted from the house by the voice with-
out. If, however, it was granted, it was probable the doors of the
house might be shut against him for ever ; but be was willing for spa'
public good to sacrifice individual feelings. The measure was as noshone of expediency as the one introduced by the ,late Home Secretary fa
disfranchising the forty.shilling freeholders of Ireland, Prprevioustc)
passing the Catholic Relief Bill. (Hear, hear.) On the same roma

of expedience alone might it be jussincd. (Hear, hear.) He was de-
sirous of a reform ; in fact. reform was necessary to allay the discon.
tent that existed. The present state of the representation was actually
a struggle of .one state in the realm against the other. He respected
honourable members who opposed the measure for their abilities, but he
suspected their motives. (Hear, hear.) The plan brought forward by
Lis Majesty's government should have his most cordial support.—
(Cheers.)
Lord CASTLEREAGH said that, like his noble friend who spoke
last, lie respected the talents of the opponents of this plan of Reform;
but he respected much more their motives. (Hear, hear.) The noble
Turd said that be gave a pledge on the hustings to his constituents to
support Reform. Now he (Lord Castlereagh) never gave any pledge,
but he was returned by a triumphant majority. (Hear.) There was a
petition from Down, the county that he represented, in favour of
; but it prayed for a Reform that he could not agree to, and con-
sequently could not support it. The petitioners asked for triennial
itarliaments—retrenchment—(which he hoped his Majesty's Ministers
would attend to,)—for a reduction of taxation, and for the abolition
of tithes. (Hear, hear.) He was convinced of the necessity of
sonic plan of reform, and expected it to be introduced, but he was
not prepared for one that struck at the very root of the Consti-
tution. (lie.ir, hear.) The journey of Reform certainly must
he begun, and the only question was how far it should go.—(Hear.)
Ile could assure the house, although he strongly objected to the bill of
his Majesty's ministers, he was not opposed to Reform. They were
threatened if the measure was not carried with a dissolution—now that
was an eve. t they must expect, sooner or later—he did not believe it
would be to-morrow, or the next day—(hear); but whether it was one
day. one month, or one year, it was of no consequence, because their
:miduct was always before their constituents.—(Hear.) And if this
was the last vote he was ever to give it should be against the
measure.—(Hear, hear.) In doing so, he was conscious that he
was doing his duty. He was not connected with any party in the
noose, or out of it. He looked solely to the interests of the coon-
try.—(Hear, bear.)
Mr. SHAW, like the noble lord who spoke last, could not give a
silent vote. He was willing to support any measure of gradual reform.
lie would support any measure calculated to renovate the constitution.
(Hear.) He was willing to transfer the elective franchise from some
rotten boroughs to large towns like Manchester, Leeds, and other
populous places.—( Hear.) But this measure of reform lopped off at
once C 2 Manbers, and laid the axe to the root of the most sacred insti-
tutions of the c,itintry.—( Hear.) He was willing, as he before said, to
sup; oat a moderate measure of reform, but not such a one as the
pro,ent. (Hear.) He was not surprised, however, that the plan should
Le r.ecivcd with open arms by all radical reformers.—(Hear.) The
measure was most complete; but it must be acceptable to all ultra re-
formers,—in fact it:opened a high road to universal suffrage, annual
parliaments, and vote by ballot. (Hear, hear.) It was a plan that
would spare the honourable member for Waterford many a night of
agitation. (Hear, hear.) Ministers had completely accomplished that
honourable member's darling object, agitation. (Hear, hear.) The
honourable gentleman concluded by stating that he could not con-
•eent to a measure which bad the effect of disfranchising the seven
.nousind constituents whom he had the honour of representing in that
House.

Several Honourable Members here rose ; after some time, they gave
way to
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL—The honourable and learned
member stated that the honourable and gallant admiral (Sotheron),
after a seven nights' debate, had declared for the measure; but, in con-
sequence of the speech of his (the Attorney-General's) honourable and
learned friend (Sir E. Sugden), had changed his opinion. The result
after all might be, that the gallant admiral would again change his
mind. in consequence of the speech lie (the Attorney. General) was then
about to make to the house. That gallant admiral had stated that
at public meetings, most respectably attended, and held under the
auspices of the magistrates of the county, all were unanimously
'or the measure now under discussion, and that feeling was not
(nought about by so other bias but the good of the country. If
such a unanimity be manifested at every meeting excepting that
which lie (the Attorney-General) had now the honour of addressing
(cries of No, no,) it appeated to him rather whimsical if that house
should prove infallibly right. He should take the liberty of adverting
to the speech of his hon. and learned friend (Sir E. Sugden). That hon.
arid learned gentleman had built his speech altogether on imputation ;
he had said, from first to last, the bill was full of unintelligible matter.
31inisters had been accused of introducing new measures of disfranchise-
ment ; but the fact was, that the bill was placed in his (the Attorney-
General's) hands several weeks ago, for the purpose of his putting
it into the shape of an Act of Parliament, and that bill was now
eonformable in every shape to the instructions which he received at
the time it was placed in his hands ; he was of opinion that that of
itself was a sufficient answer to those who stated that the bill was
changed in its features. It would be remembered about two years
ago, when the most important of all measures, except the present,
was carried. it was stated, if the bill were altered, its fate would
be endangered. A precisely similar feeling was entertained by the
supporters jof the present measure ; it was also said, that the object
his 3lajesty's ministers had in view in bringing forward the question
of Reform, was to keep themselves in power; that the object of
the bill was to keep them in their places.—(Hess, from the Opposi-
tion.) If honourable gentlemen could persuade themselves to be.
Dove such a doctrine, he really could not tell, for surely the cry for
Reform was not of so recent a date: was it not the language of
Lord Chatham ? Could it be possible that he was playing into
the hands of the ministers of 1831 ? Were they not the same
principles also that gave fame to his son ? although after
the events of the,French revolution he was led to depart from the
avowal of such sentiments. Did the noble earl, now at the head of
the administration, entertain any idea of putting out the ministers of
the day when he brought forward the very same question in 1793, and
again in 1797? Surely if honourable gentlemen gave the case the
smallest consideration, they would admit that a remedy was wanted,
and a proof of the evidence of disease. If the remedy were not com-
plete in itself, it could not be permanent; if ministers came down with
a measure for 1831, leaving something for 1832, and so on for succes-
sive years, then the public would be kept in a state of perpetual feverish-
ness ; but it was now admitted generally on the other side of the house,
that some degree of reform was exceedingly desirable ; not a word of '
this was said during the seven nights' debate on the first reading of the
bill, which was now cast into disrepute by its opponents saying they had
WOW other measure to propose. If the opponents of this measure really
were for reform, and if they did not at once substitute some other in its
stead, they ought to allow it to go into Committee. It was qui:c clear
that the operations of the present bill would lessen the expense of elec-
tions, and prevent bribery ; it also simplified the hither to great variety
in the rights of voting, which gave rise to so many contested elections.
He would ask, if the measure of representation would not effectually
}recent all misunderstanding on that important point. This was a
bona fide proof that the bill was intended for the public good. In short,
the various clauses of the bill laid the axe to the root of bribery. His
Hon. and Learned Friend last night had said that the present measure
was a manoeuvre, in order that Ministers might keep their places.
This his Hon. and Learned Friend had said without, as he observed,
any sordid feeling to the Ministry; surely he (the Attorney-General)
had as much ground to suppose that the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man had made his speech of last night with a view to get into place.
The measure of disfranchising electors for knights of the shire has been
characterised as absurd, and the dividing of Yorkshire into three Rid-
ings, with a member to each, was called similar to the plans of Cromwell
-7•11 it were so, then it was the plan of a wise man, and a Chancery re.
gamer also. This was no novel principle. Every one knew that the
• Town formerly did not send writs to places which it thought should no
longer send Aleinbeis to Parliament. (Hear, hear.) Suppose the
Crown no longer sent a writ to Old Sarum, what then became of the
cested rights ? Was it because one person had paid forty thousand
pounds, or any other suns to another person for the power of return.
ii:g representatives, that he should maintain a vested right? ( Hear.)
The amount of rent was, he thought, the hest criterion of value that
could be taken ; the poor rate was variable, the assessed taxes it was
:apt impossible should be repealed, then the rent was the simplest and
fairest criterion that could be proposed. The forty.shilliag freeholders,
tie thanked God, were not to be disfranchised, and this bill would give
them an excitement to take root in the soil. (Hear, hear.) There
hut been one frightful word used throughout the debate—that word
tas " revolution." As it appeared to be a word of such frightful im-
port, it was satisfactory to be let into the secret of its meaning; and an
Honourable Gentleman, who had invoked the spirit of Blackstone, had
given the explanation. Blackstone says, that some might say that
con)holders should have a vote for representatives in parliament, and
others might say that leaseholders should have a vote; hut that would
be to remove the foundation of the system, or, at least, to endanger the
superstructure ; and this was what the hon. gentleman called revolu-
tion : (hear, hear.) It was well to know the real meaning of that ter-
rifie word—it meant to give the right of voting to copyholdeta and lease-
holders: (hear, hear.) He could tell the hon. gentleman that the foun-
ders of the revolution of 1688 adopted the word revolution as a term ex-
pressive of their object, which was preservation. They would not admit
that they were rebels, as it was not their object to overthrow the monarchy,
but to bring round the Constitution to what it was before it was disturbed
by arbitrary power : (hear, hear.) He hoped after the explanation they
had heard from the hon. gentleman of what was meant by those who
called the bill a revolution, that they would not allow their under-
standings to be imposed on by high-sounding words without meaning.
(Loud cries of hear, hear.) He had gone over all the objections made
to the bill, that occurred to him. [A member said, the Preston voters.]
With respect to the Preston voters he would say, that if Preston was to
be the single place whose voters would be affected in any peculiar man-
ner by the bill, he should be sorry for it ; the principle of the bill was
::01 disfranchisement. (Cries of hear. from the opposition.) He would
repeat, the object of the bill was not disfranchisement. The object of the
bill was to retain as much as possible of existing tights—(Cries of No,
no, from the opposition)—as much of existing rights as was consistent
with the real representation of the people in that house. (Hear.) Let any
other course for obtaining that great object be pointed out and it would
be a fair object of discussion. If he might be permitted to allude to
what took place last night, at which a noble lord expressed great sur-
prise, he felt it his duty to say that the paragraph brought under the
notice of the house was not false; and if it went to a jury they would

probably find a verdict of not guilty. At the same time he took pains
to express his regret that such strong language had been used, and en-
tered his dissent from every coarse expression. He did not think
it was possible for any man to do more justice to the conduct of
ministers than he did ; for he did think that by whatever means
honourable gentlemen entered that house, they felt they had a duty
to perform, and though their opinions might, from their peculiar
circumstances, be liable to bias, he did not think that they acted in
violation of what they conceived to be right ; and if such mcm.
ben would consider the effects of the bill, they would find that they
would gain more by it as members of the community than they would
lose as members of that house. An hon. gentleman last night had
made some allusion to the motives which had induced members of great
influence in the county in their support of the measure. The noble lord
at the bead of the Government had supported and brought forward the
measure in early life, and had ever since adhered to it, not as the means
of obtaining office, but when he knew it was the cause of keeping him
out of office. There were several county members still in the house who
supported his motion for reform in 1797, who now support the present
bill :—there were the Member for Norfolk, the Member for Middlesex,
the Member for Essex, and the Member for Surrey. Of such men he
would say, in the words of a living poet—
" Happy spirit, he who brought on scenes of real life,
Supports the purpose of hie youthful thought."
Were such men to be told that they wanted some advantage for them-
selves, when they staked every thing for that which they believed to be
just and right, and beneficial to the country.—(Hear, hear.) The hon.
ourable bart. (member for Westminster) too, gave his first vote, and
made his first speech In support of that cause he had ever since so nobly
sup orted.—(Hear, bear.) An honourable gentleman said, Don't talk
to us of intentions—do you think that Essex, and Warwick, and
Northumberland, when they opposed Charles 1. Intended or foresaw
what followed their opposition ? He would say that could not be used
as an argument against the present bill ; they might as well call the
honourable ban. member for Cornwall, the Essex, the Warwick, the
Northumberland, for he had promised to propose a Reform, to let out
those waters of strife that were to overflow the land. But was the pre-
sent to be compared to the arbitrary times of Charles I. when both
King and Ministers were both hated by the people? It was said the
present was the worst time in which such a measure could be Introduced,
he thought it was the very best. We were at peace with all the world,
trade was improving, the currency was at length brought into a whole-
some state, the country was increasing in prosperity. (Loud cheering
from the opposition.) There was one exception, that dreadful corrup-
tion in returning members to that house, which was demoralizing the
people, and disgusting every uncorrupted mind by the exhibition of such
scenes as took place at Evesham,East Retford and a hundred other places.
Yet it was said no reform was necessary. (No, no, from the opposition.)
Why, no reform was the burden of the song of the seven nights.—
(Hear, and a laugh.) To say that all reform was to be rejected was such
an offspring of prejudice as he thought scarcely any man in his sound
sense could be capable of. (Hear, hear.) It was said that old states had
fits of restlessness that were the forerunners of dissolution, and that we are
in that state. It' that be true the Bill could do no harm ; but were we
to lose a beneficial measure for a metaphor of that sort? (Hear, hear.)
States were not human beings, but moral structures, and if kept pure
might flourish for ages, though they had flourished for ages before. The
measure was said to be a robbery of corporations; the corporations say,
we wish to be robbed. It was said to be a quo tourranio against the
city of London. The next day the city of London petitions for the
measure. Never was public opinion more strongly expressed in favour
of any measure. if only a half measure were granted it would lead to
growing discontent in the country that would be productive of the worst
consequences. In his conscience he believed the measure would prevent
such consequences; and he hoped in GOD, who had rend this country
to its eminence among the nations, that they might, by purifying the
election of members to that house, preserve its greatness and its free-
dom. The right hon. gent sat down amidst the loudest cheering.
Sir JAMES SCA RLETT could not be heard at first, on account
of the contusion that existed throughout the whole house. Ile had
always been a friend to reform, but he considered that this measure did
far exceed what any reasonable man could sanction who wished to pre-
serve the institutions of the country. Any measure of reform that
would be useful to the country, must be one that could be effected
with due regard to the Constitution. Tbis was a new experiment yet
untried, and was an entirely new Constitution. He disapproved of the
bill both in principle and detail. 'the rights of the House of Commons
were vested not in one code but in acts of Parliament, usages, and
charters, and he could not find In all these any precedent for a specific
reform in Parliament such as this. The Learned Gentleman went
into the history of Pediment, in reply to some arguments that had
been urged in favour of the measure, but did not mean by
this mode of reasoning to say that reform was not necessary,
but he meant to impress upon the House that Reform must depend upon
expediency, and be regulated by experience. He disapproved of •that
part of the measure which went to abridge the number of representa-
tives, and these form the commercial and moneyed interests, which
were the most important classes in the community. Ile approved of
giving the representation to the large towns, and he said that ought to
have taken place long ago; but there was no necessity for bringing in a
bill for that purpose, as the Crown had already possession of the power
to make any town a borough, by granting a charter. This had been
decided, after a long debate, by a vote of the House. He contended the
bill had been framed without rule, and that if it was brought into ef-
fect it would be the means of inflicting hardship in many cases, and
would be the cause of increasing discontent. It was as if they had in-
tended to pull down the old fabric, because that they found fault with
one beam in the building. He was assumed that the House of Commons
as at present constituted, represented every sentiment, opinion, and in.
tercet in the kingdom. The cries of " Question" were then incessant
for some time : in the midst of them—

Sir T. D. ACLA ND said that he would not detain the house for more
than five minutes. He would not have preferred a request to be heard
at that late period of the nigh; had he not already endeavoured, but in
vain, to obtain the attention of the house at an earlier hour. lie wished
to express the opinions he entertained on this subject, and he assured
them that he would not take more than five minutes to do so. He knew
that he had ro claim to their attention even for five minutes, especially
when nearly three hours had been occupied by two speakers who were I
well entitled to the most respectful consideration. (Cries of Go on.)—
But when hon. members rose up one after another to express their
opinions, and the opinions of their constituents, he felt that his right
to address the house was the urns as theirs, and he should now claim
tine power to exercise it. (Hear, hear, hear.) It was a singular'
circumstance in this debate, that not one member had yet taken a part
in it, without expressing his readiness to make some reform. (" Hear,
hear," from the ministerial benches.) Such was not the characteristic'
of the seven nights' debate (cheers from the ministerial benches): but
at present the tone of the house was so changed, that with one or two
exceptions he could not refer to any member who had stated that his
opinion was still adverse to reform. (Cheers.) He was of opinion
that hon. gentlemen did not consider the effect of that admission. They
ought to reflect that lie who opened the door a few inches to a strenuous
applicant, might as well open it to a larger extent, and they ought to ap.
ply that argument to this question, which was not agitated for the first'
time, but which had been agitated for the last 50 years, and had been
agitated in vain till the present hour, when the admission was at last
made that it was a question which ought to be entertained: (hear.) It
appeared to him to be trifling and absurd to consider this measure in its
minor details: on the contrary, he thought that they ought to make up
their minds to some large and substantial measure of reform (cheers
from the ministerial benches.) The question on the second reading of '
this bill was a question of reform or no reform: (loud cries of " No,
no," from the opposition.) Yes, in plain terms, the second reading of
this bill involved the question, whether they would have a large sub.
stantial measure of reform, or whether they would be content wi.ll
a mere vague expectation of a non-existing phantasy, to be I
brought forward hereafter by his honourable friend the member for
Cornwall, and to be supported only by those who were either
adverse to all consideration of the question, or who brought up the lag-
ging rear of the reformers, in the hope that their march would be spee-
dily and effectually stoppal. Those who professed themselves friendly
to reform, and yet stated that they could not support this bill, bemuse
there were parts of it which would not admit, in the committee, of any
modification that they could approve of, must not be surprised if they
were classed in future by the country among the decided opponents and
stoppers of reform. He would not trouble the house with the explana-
tion of the feelings which he had formerly entertained nn this ques.
tion, or of that sense of duty which impressed him with the neces-
sity of supporting the present attempt to remedy such defects
in the constitution us no eloquence could now hope to maintain—
(hear, hear, hear)—as the common sense of the country would no
longer hear ;justified, and would scarcely tolerate--(cheers)—such de-
fects as gave to etery enemy of the constitution the means of inflicting
an additional wound upon it, and to every friend the certainty of feeling
an additional pang. (Cheers.) He would not pretend to describe his
feelings ; he would only say, that he had never a more painful task im.
upon him than the endeavour to find out thecourse of duty which
resd ought to pursue upon a subject which, of all the subjects that had
been submitted to Parliament in the 20 years during which he had en-
joyed the honour of a seat in it, was the most important, both in itself
and in its effects, of all the questions which had ever been submitted
to any legislature. He could assure ministers it had been his most
anxious wish to be able, on principle, to give his unqualified support to
the measure. But he was bound to say, that although he saw in
it very much to approve, and also observed the fairest intentions to its
proposers,—after every effort that he had made to bring himself up to
the point of supporting the bill without qualification, he did think it
went too far. (Loud and continued cheering from the opposition.)
He regretted that he could not give an unqualified support to the plan,
' in the details of which ministers had, according to his opinion, moved
with too rapid a pace. (Renewed cheers.) He was not unwilling to
consent to a very large and ample disfranchisement,--he was not un-
willing to take for the basis of such disfranchisement the propositions
contained in the bill, with some abatement. With respect to the dia.
tribution of members obtained by the proposed disfranchisement, he
thought that it was on the whole wise and just, with some exceptions,
such as the large addition of members to the metropolis. Notwith-
standing the objections be bad taken, being a reformer on principle, he
felt it indispensably secenery to vote for the second reading of the bill,

with a view to its modification in the Committee, and hoping that those
who had done so much that was wise and good, would consent to arrange
rethnedrdeettahils epolfanthgee
nmenemlluyresasf ry.
so as
tto.
o remove reasonable objections, and
(Cheers and loud cries of Ques-
tion, and Divide.')
Lard JOHN RUSSRLI. asked the house to give him some of its
attention while be gave such explanations as he could upon certain
points that lied been touched on during the course of the debate of yes-
terday and that night ; and at the same time attempted to answer
parts of the arguments used be the opponents of the bill. He wee
aware, however, that a great part of those arguments had been so
completely anti satisfactorily answered by iris hon. and learned friend the
Attorney-General, that it would be ',MC than needless for him to trouble
the house with any,regetition of the points touched on in his (the Attor-
ney-General's) speech. He wished 1 t re to state, that lie differed from
his hon. anti learned friend the Atterney-fiereral er the late govern-
ment entirely, in thinking that his hon. and learned friend, as a re-
former, could, with propriety, vote against the second reading of :he
bill. (Hear.) Mr. Burke had spoken of certain persons as being pro-
spective patriots, who, when the question came to the present day, were
always found wanting. Looking at his past life, his hon. and learned
friend might be called a retrospective patriot, and his prospective pa-
triotism was also undoubted, so long as we dwelt in generalities, and
the honourable and learned member bad only to make speeches in that
house and to his constituents, expressive of his wishes for some
reform ; but now that we came to a distinct and tangible mea-
sure, his honourable friend used arguments which were not in
favour of a more moderate reform than the present, but which mi-
litated against any reform witatsoevsr. (Hear, hear.) lie begged
to observe, that although many concession' had been made in the gene-
ral language of the opponents of the bill since the seven nights' debate,
commencing on the Ist of March, in point of promise or pledge in fa-
vour of any specific measure of reform there had been no concession—
nothing distinct—on the part of those opponents. If the late Solicitor-
General could point out parts of this bill which were not quite intel-
ligible to him, still he (Lord J. Russell) contended that it was a little
more plain and intelligible than the imaginary resolution which, in the
event of this proposition being defeated, the hon. member for Cornwall
was to propose at some future day, no one knew when, to do no one
knew what, and which was to afford satisfaction to no one knew whom
—except, indeed, it were intended to satisfy those who opposed
reform, yet wished to persuade others and themselves into the belief
that they were not opposed to it. (Hear, hear) His honourable and
learned friend had alluded to the speech which he (Lord John Russell)
made at the commencement of the debate, and to the reference to the
commonalty ; and his honourable and learned friend had given a strange
interpretation to the word " commonalty," for he interpreted it to mean
" the barons." (Laughter.) If this were correct, instead of peers
heing inn uders in their interference with that house, they were the
true representatives of the people, for after all the barons and the
barons alone were the real commonalty, (according to his honourable
and learned friend), and possessed the right of voting taxes. But
he begged his honourable and learned friend to come down a little
later when he referred to the constitution of the house. The
statement he (Lord John Russell) had made was, that this
was a question of right,—that those who asked for reform had
the letter of the low in their favour, and, such being the case,
possessed a fair claim that the House of Commons should truly repre-
sent the people. :That was a proposition which required no great degree
of ingenuity to establish : it was supported by the very words used in
Acts of Parliament, and by the well-known language of the constitu-
tion. What did our ancestors in 1688 ? First they declared that elec-
tions ought to be free and uninfluenced ; and, in the next place, two or
three years afterwards, they passed an act very contrary to the theory of
the right of persons of wealth and property to nominate members of
that house; they specifically enacted that all such nominations were
contrary to the laws and constitution of the realm, and that they were
null and void. Such was the manner in which our ancestors, at the period
of the revolution, read and understood the constitution of the realm. If
there were time, he could show that great part of the abuses now com-
plained of in the representation—those which limited the return of mem-
bers to a small number of persons.—had grown up since the accession
of George 11. When ministers determined on reforming the system,
the first question which they had to ask themselves was this—and he
put it to all who affecting to approve of reform opposed the bill—" Is
it fit that the direct nomination of members by individuals, and that
the sale of seats for money, should continue to be part of the constitu-
tion of the house?" If the bon. member for Cornwall said such nomi-
nation and purchase of seats ought to continue in a reformed House
of Commons, he told the hon. member that such a reform as he could
propose would not be a final reform. (Hear.) He would never deny
the advantages that in particular cases might have arisen from nomina-
tion and purchase of seats for money, as in the case of 3f r. Ricardo,
who, by the disbursement of 1,0001. a year, was enabled to com-
municate to the house the results of his very valuable labours arid ex-
traordinary intelligence on various subjects. But if you were to form
a plan of refbrm on this ground,--if you permitted nomination and
sale of seats to continue,--in the very first year of a reformed Parlia-
ment, if we did not do it others would rise and Kay such franchises were
contrary to the laws and constitution, and they would have an argument
w helm it would be impossible to resist. Having come to the conclusion
that they (main not to permit the practices in question to cottanue any
longer, this question of disfranchisement followed as a natural and recta,.
eery consequence of that conclusion. Gentlemen might talk of the hard.
ship of disfranchising voters such as those of Ewa and West Looe, but
he denied the hardship, and contended that the privilege which they at
present enjoyed was not one which they were quatified to exercise.
r he real question was briefly this- was it for the public good that the
owners of boroughs should continue to nominate members of that house,
and, having once decided that it was not. it would he only a mockery
to say to 200 or 300 voters of inconsiderable boroughs, " you shall have
the right of sending members to Parliament." As to the rule of selec-
tion with respect to boroughs to he disfranchised, no doubt, as the hon.
and learned member observed, there was no positive law why places
with 2,000 inhabitants should send one representative to the house, and
places of 1,900 inhabitants should not. But a similar objection would
exist wherever ministers had drawn the line. (Hear, hear.) It was a
matter of prudence and expediency where to draw the distinction ; and
ministers thought it would be reasonable to say, that boroughs. pos.
seising fewer than two thousand inhabitants, should nut be
represented. His hon. and learned friend said, that in consequence of
die preponderance of the landed interests in the new plan, the due in.
fluence of the commercial and monied interests would be lost in the
house. He did not agree in this—he thought there would be no diffi-
culty in persons of wealth making known their pretensions and obtain-
ing seats in Parliament. His lion. and learned friend also intimated,
that the national credit might be destroyed by the bill,—but in arguing
against it Itched himself given reasons. which proved that this could not
be the case: his learned friend said " if p.it destroy the national credit,
you not only ruin the upper classes but a number of persona of small
property"—true, but the bill gave persons of small property an interest
in elections, and thus tended to bring forward a class interested
in maintaining the national credit (hear, hear.) Then he was
told by his lion. and learned friend that it was unjust to take the census
of 1821 as a etandurd a census made 10 years ago : but in the line
place, he admitted this was trot the natural line of proceeding but the
line of convenience ; and secondly, if ministers had attempted to obtain
a new census with a view to this measure they would have given room
fur every kind of fraud- In such a case all sorts of trickery and de-
ception 'would be resented to in order to swell the returns of population,
it being known that the fate of boroughs was to depend en the
amount of their inhabitants. An honourable and leumed gentle-
man said last night that the petitions presented to the house were
not merely petitions for reform, bite fur the ballot and a confi.ea.
lion of tithes. Now it happened that a paper which had been
just placed on the table of the house, in coasequt nee of a motion
of the honourable member for Preston, entirely contradicted this asser-
tion. It appeared that the number of petitions fur reform were 645 ; for
the ballot 200 ; respecting tithes, comprehending pet'aons for co neat .
tation, a different arrangement of tithes, &c. 70. (Hear.) 11 hh what
sort of justice could it be said, then, that the petitions for reform were
in favour of the ballot, and of !I destruction of tithes and troperty It
was said that the effect of the bill would be to give a preponderancy to
the landed over the other interests, and in the next sentence it was added
that the measure would produce the triumph of democracy. These were
conflicting statements. When arguments were resorted to in this
vague way, in the hope of catching up a vote or two from opposite
sides,—( Hear, hear, bear.)—when commercial men were threat-
ened with a preponderance of die landed interest, and the aristo-
cracy were alarmed with apprehensions of' the mob, it must be apparent
that such opposite objections, proceeding from the same lips, were either
not well considered or insincere. (Hear, hear.) Look at the conduct of
members of small boroughs; they were generally found voting against
economy and retrenchment in the teeth of the popular wish. He found
by a reference to certain curious tables, that of the representatives of
boroughs, with a population under 2,000, 30 bad voted for economy and
reduction, and 96 against it. On the other hand, in the case of bo-
roughs having 5,000 inhabitants and upwards, although the election
was generally close, 69 members had voted for, and 47 against,
retrenchment. When the people saw the representatives. who
were, In facts soot to that House by popular influence,

voting in direct contradiction to the Members for the small lot.
roughs upon such a point, what coeclusinn could be Conte to exc^pt
that the borough members were neither relay r virtually the repre-
aentrives of the people. There was one other eceent to which he wished
briefly to refer. He alluded to the appeal to the Privy Cetincil. H -
felt, as well as the learned gentleman, the difficuldee which were con..
meted with this part of the measure. need if :icy thing could iee SUA.
gated to restrain the power pieced ie the hands of the Privy Ceuteed,
without affecting the main objects of the bill, Etc should be most le eppy
in adopting it. (Hear, hear.) He had now done with the provisions
of the bill ; and he had only a few words to say with respect to
the real question before the house. Hi, Majestt Ministers were
anxious to frame such a plan of reform as would hind firmly aed
kindly the different clas es of society together, (bear, hear.) and which
would secure a representation on which that house and the country
might safely test. (Hear, hear.) He did not mean to say that tie plan
proposed by them might not be altered, but he fele that if, in the cont.
mince, it were materially altered, an as to deprive i: of the character
which he had just described, he should feel that neither himself r any
other friend of realm, would think themselem precluded, at any fauna
time, from bringing forward those parts of the measure a Lich had been
thrown aside, and whicn they considered to be cssenth'l. (Hear hear.)
If any alteration were proposed, which would no: intert, re with tile
great objects that ministers had in view, he felt no liesitatioa in
saying, that to such alteration no opposition would be given. (Hear,
hear.) But if alterations were called for, that would not sari ft the
country, such a course would only lead to a prolonged struegle. O-
land of conciliating the feelings and affections of the people. (Ilea .)
They lived certainly in extraordinary times : (cheers front the opposi.
tion.) The hon. baronet, the member for Cornwall (Sir U. Ve vyan),
who had strenuously opposed this motion, and who thought met he
could in some way or other direct the mighty mass of public epiniee
which was mat in action—that hone baronet had given them warning,
both from circumstances which had occurred at home, and frotn creme
which had happened in foreign countries, with respect to the drove
that was to be apprehended front making peepular concessions. But. be
would ask, had the honourable bcrunet never looked to the danger
of resisting well-founded popular claims : (hear, hear, hear.)
Had he never contemplated the danger which a government
encountered, when it placed itself in a situation, end lc:meted
itself upon a plinciple, that was not sustainable by reason--
that was not tenable against the representations of contemn acne;?
Day after day complaints were made of the sta'e oldie represenbriote—
day after day the people declared that the nominees of boroughs did tot
represent them, and were they to pay no attention to the const int, !lie
fervent, the glowing appeals of this large, liberal, and enlightened tea.
tion ? (Hear.) Had the hon. but. never thought of the consequences
which had resulted to kings and princes, in consequence of their resist-
ance to the just demands of the people—in consequence of the roe!,
having found that their representations were fruitless and unavailing
The honourable baronet had referred to revolutions. He had spoke :
of the French revolution of 17110, and he had referred to the r.
non in this country, in the time of Charles the First. But the host
revolution that had happened was that which occurred in France, in
the month of July last. (Hear.) How was that !evolution caused e
Was it occasioned because Clarks X. and his ministers were too ready
to come forward with plans of reform? ( Hear.) 'des it because they
offered to make greater concessions to the people than ought to he
granted? Certainly not. But was it not, on the eootrary,
because that Monarch and his ministers opposed themselves to popular
rights to the uttermost ? (Hear.) Il'as it not because they were
determined to transgress the laws, and to violate charters? (Cheers
from the opposition.) Not, be it observed, to violate charters by prevent.
ing persons from sending members to Pailiament who were unfit to do
so; but because they violated charters connected with the constitution e f
the realm, and necessary to its safety—charters which they had sworn to
defend. (Hear.) Did they not attempt all this ? Did they not make
the effort, supported by the most pocerful machinery, assisted by a
gallant army, and sustained by a finely-appeinted guard? Yet, with
all them preparations, the cl.itermination of the people rendered the
project abortive. (Hear.) Would the hon. baronet call this a lesson
that ought to induce then: to stem the tide of improvement, and to
close the door of concession ? Would he say that when they might con-
ciliate the affections of the people by listening to their claims, they
ought to reject those claims and rather govern by force ? There wee a
time in France (he then was acquainted with the ministers theft), whet.
moderate concession would have prevented the catastrophe which had
since occurred ; when the allowance by law of BONO persons instead of
.10,000, to elect to the municipal ceuncil, would have given the mince t
satisfaction to France. He deeply regretted that the Government of the
country had taken an opposite course; for sure he was, that if they had
acted differently, the dynasty of the Bourbons would have been pr -
served, and the power of an ancient monarchy would have been consoli.
dated. But now the hon. baronet came forward and said, that the whole
danger lay in conceding to popular feelings and wishes. The entire
danger, according to hint, was to be apprehended from conceding to the
good sense, and good feelings. and good understanding of the people,
that which they felt to be essential to their welfare; for such was the
lintention and scope of the measure. (Hear, hear, hear.) When lie
was told of the baleful effects of democracy—of the destruction of
property—and of other evils which it was said this measure would
produce, he would say to those who thus viewed the question, that
he felt the utmost confidence in the good sense, discretion, and too.
deration of the people of England, and therefore he could not par.
ticipate in such fears. (Hear, heat.) He believed sincerely that the
people had the ability, and he hoped that they would have the power,
to send individuals to that house—not to destroy the monarchy, not to
pull down the House of Lords, but—persons who would respect the in-
terests of the monarchy, the interests of the House of Commons, and the
interests of the public at large. (Hear, hear.) If this were not the
case—if, as had been said, republicanism heel gone through the lend,
then he contended, that it would be quite beyond their power to keep
this house constituted as it was. (Hear, hear.) If the people were so
infected with those principles, it was utterly impossible that an govern-
could go on with a Parliament thus framed ? No government could
go on for five years if they proceeded hi a course directly contrary
to the interests, and habits, and feelings of the great body of
the people over whom they presided. (Hear, hear.) Theta:or,
be said what they had to do was, to make their institutions harmo-
nise with the feelings of the people—to conjoin the two together, and
to render them, in future, susceptible of that mutual agreement, which
he admitted was most difficelt to be attained in a system composed of
King, Lord., and Commons, but which it was impossible to arrive at
in the present constitution of the House of Commons, though that de-
lete might be remedied by the principles c:ntained in this bill. (dear,
hear.) It had been advanced as a reproach to ministers, in the course
of this debate, that they had gone beyond all expectation, and had
given power to the people at the eapense of the stability of our rode:met
institu ions. it should, however, be observed that the present i.
nistration stood in a different sitteeth ri from any Cot had preceded
ie. It was said of other administrations, that when they gut fora
their predecessors' shuations they would just do tes thou whom
they succeeded had done. 'i'he imletteetion grown on the
present Ministers was of a different kind. aced he for one was content to
accept of it. When he sat on the other side of the House, he was se tae.
what chary in proposing any very ex•ensive system of refonn, beeatteie
he fele that what might seem wise and good to those who had no puhlei
power or responsibility, !night present a very different aspect to tole rs
who had not the same official meats of forming a judgment ; bet siow.
when he and his friends were called on to give advice and counsel to
their sovereign, they had acted up to the full bent of their opinion—
; (hear.) They had not hesitated to avow —they had not attempted to
conceal any part of their opinions. They had risked every thing 'Oat
Ministers could wish : they had tieked pl.:ce, power, and distinction.—
in short, every thing,—in an endeavour (he hoped that it would be
a triumphant endeavour) to improve lareely, liberally, and generously,
the constitution of Great Britain (loud cheet Mg, and cries of " gut- time")
Mr. HUNT presented himself to the lemee amidst much tumult.
lie declared that he would not detain them two minutes. He understooc
the hon. and learned noneber for Weymouth (Sir E. Sugden) to is eve
said that it' this bill were passed imo a law, the electors of Preston
would hereafter be prevented from voting. How then, could i c vote.
without explanation, for a 11:CIFUle which, it was asserted, would dis-
qualify his constituenis ? (Hear.) Seppoeitig he voted for it, in the
absence of explanation, it would go forth to tile solid that he had sup.
ported a bill which disqualified ttioee who sent him into Parliament.—
(Near.) He had, in consequecce of his feelings on this Subject, made
application to the need,: meree, who iieformed him that t 0
life.interset would be irjeireel 11 the hell, hut that if it appeared dot it
interfacd with his Ctliob:!:Util!s. that point eleiould be altered. Hts hem.
colleague had waited on :he head of the governerert. and had receietd
a similar assurance. Under these cacti o owlets, having explained a hat
had occurred, he felt himself justified in the eyes of 116 country atom he
came forward to give his vote for this ineareire.
. .

galley was then, with some ditikul,c. cleared.
The Itt.use then divided, there nrp.areti—

Fm the amendment ...
Fer the tiecoad reading

301
302

Majority for the second reading .. 1
During the division the utmost anxiety for the fate of the bill was
evinced by the strangers in the upper loi,he and the passages v. •he
house. Ibrers were now and then hard firm within the heetac, a Lich
were interpreted according to the hopes or feats of those who heard them.
When at last tremendous cheerio,: from within announced that die fate
of the second reading was decided. and that it was carried,
—though only by a majority of One, the joy expressed by the
strangers was unbounded. 11'ithin the house loud and continued cheer..
accompanied by clapping of hands. were heard, and, as far as we could
judge, they came chiefly from the opposition side, who (judgir g from
what we saw when the gallery was opened) looked upon the bill as vir.
tually defe►ted, at least for the present.
On our return to the gallery, we found the SIMAIEII putting the
question—that the Bill be committed for Thursday. the 14th of April.
This was agreed to.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, sod the house ad.
punted at four o'clock this morning.
When the majority was announced outside the house, it was received
with cheers by a considerable number of persons who had waited to heel
the result.