Star.
London, England, 1802-12-21 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPIAKIa fraying taken the Chair, after foam private
bufinefs was gone through, two new Members were (worn in.
Ordered, on the motion of Mr. VAIII.IIIT TART, that there be
laid before the Houfe an Account, thawing the quantity of Flax
and Flaxen Yarn imported for ten years, commencing 1792,
dittioguiihing the quantum in each year, and the countries from
whence imported.
Read a third time the Militia Ameedment Bill, pelted, and
ordered to the Lords.
Mr. ALZIAND zit brought up the on the Irilb Sugar
Drawback BilL—Agreed to. and so be engrOfted.
A Mdfage from the Lords requiftata Copy of the 31ft Re-
port of the Finance Committee of June 5798.
The CIAWCELLOI of the Excu eve a moved, that the Paid
Report be fent, as defired by their Lordfirips.---Orderrd.
He then moved, that the Mermen be called in and ac-
quainted therewith. which they were accordingly. • •
Mr. Omar give notice, that be thould to-morrow move for
certain Public Accounts relative to Ireland.

SUGAR MORT BOUNTY 1111. L.
Mr. VANSITTART moved the Ok a of the Day
for she third reading of this Bill.
Mr. Joan sow rofe,and apologifed for trefpatru,g
on the attention of the Houle, but hoped for its
indulgence while heexpreffed his fentiments ()lithe
fibjea of this Bill, upon which he had the misfor-
tune to differ from fo many Hon. Members i but
which, however, he could not let pals without a
few obferfitions. The prefentft Bill was broulths
it ...._ _ -1_ _ ___• r re

flderably overttocked the Market bete, now felt
themfklves under the neceffity of applying to Par-
liament fo. relief, by granting a Bounty on its
Exportation. It bad, -he Paid, been the policy of
the Britifh Legiflature, fence the firft cultivation
of the Weft India Colonies, to grant the Importers
of Sugar in this Country, a Bounty upon Export,
equal to the Duty they paid upon the Import, un-
til the year 1794 ; when the abundance was fo
great, and the article fo very cheap, that it was
thought politic and fair by Government to retain
a part of the Duty upon the Sugar exported. In
1799, the old principle was again resumed : but
this Bill went Rill farther, by propofing to grant
on the exportation, a Bounty of two (haling: per
hundred weight over, and above the Duty upon
Sugars imported. This was an indulgence grant-'
ed to the Weft India Merchants, at the expence
of the People of England, by fuch a deduCtion
from the Public Finances of the Country, as he
by no means confidered them entitled to claim or
expea. Examining the Returns upon the table
for the year aor, he found the amount of Boun-
ties paid upon Sugars exported to be, on Raw Su.
gar, ioo,oool. on Refined, 125,0001. but what,
he would alk—was there, in the advantages of this
trade to the country, that it fhould be maintained
at fuch an expence to the Public ? If the Importers
had huit themfelves by the avidity of their fpecu-
lations, and lowered the price by over-flocking
the Market at home, he did not fee how granting
a Bounty upon Export could produce the effea of
relieving them. For if, as was the fact, every
other Market on the Continent was overttocked,
the natural confequence of fending more there,
mull be to render Rill lower, inftead of railing, the
price. But fiippofing the fan was not fo, and
that encouragement of Exportation was to pro-
cure good prices abroad, as well as railing them
at home, was it a jet policy to charge the public
with a Bounty for conliderably railing upon them
the price of a neceffary of life, for the advantage
of perfons whom he conceived not at all entitled
to fuch Bounty. He had not the good fortune to
be in the Houle on a former night) when the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer, in pro-
poling to bring forward this Bill, Rated, that the
abundance of Weft India produce, imported laft
year, was fo great, and the Rock in the- country
fo extenfive, that unlefi a Bounty was given to
the Merchants for its Export, in order to find
elle where a Market for the redundancy, the etre&
would be to damp the fpirit of commerce, as well
as of cultivation, for the future. But he could not
underftand the argument, nor fee why, becaufe
we were oyez-flocked tiy the abundant produce of
one year, that we were not equally liable to fall
fhort in perhaps the next; for it was only by the
average of crops, for a fucceffive feries of years,
that a true criterion could be formed. The true
ground of the meafure was, as he believed, that
Gentlemen in the Well India trade were Much
diftrefed 1 and, if relief was not given them, they
might be much injured. Neverthelefs, he could
not fee the juftice of a claim on the public, to in-
demnify thofe men from the confequences of their
own erroneous or imprudent fpeculations. if the
manufaiturers of Manchefter, or the clothiers of
Yorkfi‘ire, had over-fpeculated in 'cotton or wool,
or overworked the market in their relpeeive fa-
brics, would it have been admitted as a general
principle, that they had a right to claim of that
Houfe reparation for their loffes ?—no fuch prin-
ciple, he was confident, would be admitted. It.
might be imagined, from the language of the Weft
India Merchants, that the grower, and not the con-
fumer, was to pay the duties. This, however, was
not the cafe, for in impofing*the duty, arid adhe-
rence was maintained to the principle of Adam
Smith, and the tax laid upon the confumer. How
ever, when he confidered the nature of the Weft
India trade, and the prefent fituation of thlt guar-
ter of the Globe, it muff be obvious to every man,
that the more it was extended the greater the por-
tion of mifery to the unfortunate people, by whofe
labour it was carried on, and the lefs our fecurity
in the permanence of our poffeffions there. If Gen-
tlemen complained, that the profits arifing from
their plantations were fmall, he believed the fault
would be found chargeable to their careleffnefs and
imprudence, by entrufting the management to
perfons not deferving of their confidence. He
had every with their profits were greater, becaufe
he was lure, that in the hands of-many of them,
thole profits would be converted to laudable pur-
pores. But there was certainly no proof of an un-
profitable
.trade in the aitivity and increafed ex-
tent which Welt India cultivation had manifefted
in its progrefs for the laft feven years. Another
proof of the profperity of the Planters was, he
Paid, the high intereft which money has borne
throughout the war, and to this moment, in the
Weft India Elands. For at Jamaica, it had uni-
formly carried so per cent. he did not mean that
this was the legal intereft there ; but it was fo ma-
naged, that all thofe who borrowed, paid at that
rate, and the profits of trade mutt indeed be con-
fiderable,
where fo high an ufance could be af-
forded. He concluded by apologizing to. the
Houfe, for trefpaffing thus far in fupport of his
opinion, that the claimants in this cafe were not
to burthen this country with bounties to recom-
pence them for unprofitable, or even lofing (pc-
culations, any more than other merchants or ma•
nufaeurers : and though he was convinced, they
muff have made out fuch a safe as reconciled the
meafure to the Right Hon. Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, he himfelf could not anent to it.
Mr. FuLt.za obferved, that the Hon. Member
who (poke left, was averfe to giving any bounty
on the exportation of fugar, but be would beg to
apprize the Houfe of the confequences before at-
tendant on taking away the bounties ;*namely,
that the profits of the exporter were reduced to
an average of not more than 2 per cent. Happy
as had been the confequences to this country of
that peace, for the relloration of which he was
ready to yield his tribute' of thanks to his Majefty's
prefent Minifters, the principal perfons in the
country who were fufferers in the event, were the
Weft India Merchants, for to them the confe-
quences*ere ruinous ; and would the Hon. Gen-
tlemans
fo far undervalue the advantages which-,

thjs country, as to think that chore who e •
f:Nre ~yesle a nnrnd° lie;
fiwahii
whichcr ahl ibt oornoo
kuaghohdfrt reliefbaanrnku
annually
tol
teahsceotlim:
y
on were entitled, under no circumllanc atlic(
cr,r,
country to the amount of above jeer„ of
i,t1„";
duce, to the amount of eight milli P ssltielt
adlually made one tenth of the fearnen h
ed the bell defence of the Empire And ‘c
it that the Weft India merchant alkyd Onlywhatw
-
to
be permitted to export to other mark
that re-
dundancy, for which he could not liar
don here; of that produce which he
was compel.
confump-
led to bring to the Britifh Market in B
(}tips,
charged with every import of f • I
feln.
6 of duty,
tonnage, which the Legiflature thought fit of
to im-
pofe ; and to be enabled to make fuel] e
on
fuch terms as to be able to meet other Nations
market elfewhere. In older to Phew theations_at
hardfhips under which the Well India
mepecinhar
rc lan%
laboured, under thefe rellri6tions, he a
inftance in his own experience ; one of hisestatesated
in the Weft Indies, he (aid, produced fugar, i•ch
he could fell in Jamaica, for home co--rift:my'
there, or in America, at 40 Guineas per hl dPnurl
1 • but
for which at home, in this country, though he
was compelled to bring it here, he could
above 251.; was it then reafonable, after tti;el
compelling him to bring home a commodity hu;
which he muft be fo very confid bl -
era e a Inter-.%
WAS it, he would afk, reafonable or jull, to debar
him of a market elfewhere ? The Hon. Memberar
mit have formed his opinion without refiedtion ;
but confident that their cafe was in the hands of a
generous people, with junice and reafon on their
fide, the Weft India merchants feared not there,
fufal of redrefs.
Mr. BARON fupported the arguments of
Fuller, and hoped when the lituationof
the Welt
India 'Merchant was confideted in every point of
view ; when it was confidered, they were compil-
:Attnrtrade (71. s to
iocßearltilht
ienithy
ewthdoiuuptlside,
sfa,entidcmhpw;oiittihoi
led to purchafe at our markets the fupplies for the
Weft India Iflands; to fell thofe commodities at
nr a ; t t
fr anyuabci
our
ri
taefrekaetmht se:
iee
apt nrt
tifh
and reflridions this country thought fit to impofe;
when it was remembered, that
the average ex-
ports from this country in that trade, for three
years pail, amounted to 7,300,0001. ; and the
duties they were obliged to pay, more than doubled
the whole of their profits, he trolled the Honfe
would confider them as entitled to proteCtion, in.
(lead of expofing them to ruin. When the pro:
duce of the Welt India Hands was comparatively
fipall, and the prices of higar high, it was deemed
expedient to allow a drawback of the whole im.
port duties of fugar on exportation, but when the
abundance of a few years might have enabled them
to, make up the deficiencies of thole much lefs fa•
vourable, by obtaining a preference in the markets
of Europe, Government thought their profits too
great, and went into parinerthip with them, by
retaining the greater part of, the duty charged upon
the fugars exported. This condud he confidered
as highly illiberal, unfair, and opprefEve. The
Hord. Member who began this debate, feemeT to
confider the Bounty granted in this cafe as fingu-
lar ; but had he been at the trouble of confulling
the Cuftom-houfe books, he would have found his
opinion contradided in numberlefs instances: and
he now held an abftrad in his hand, containing
above fortz different articles, which were allowed
Diaiehacks, or Bounties upon exportation. He
had not the flighteft doubt of the corrednefs of
the Ratement made by the Hon. Member who
fpolcn WI, that by taking away the Drawback the
profits of the Exports were reduced to two per
cent. ; butte was perfedly fare the average upon
the !aft four years did not exceed three per cent.
a profit lefs by two-thirds than thofe of any man
who (peculates in building, agriculture, manufac-
tures, or any commercial concerns ; and if he took
the average of the laft ten years, in which were
included the fix moll produdive ones ever expe-
rienced in the Weft India Colonies, the profits, he
was five; would not exceed fix per cent. The
Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite to him (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) was, he underilood, well
informed and thoroughly converfant on this fub-
jed ; and he wifhed to yield that Right Hon. Gen-
tleman his tribute of thanks for the atrention he
had paid to the reprefentations of thole concerned
in the trade. He was intitled on the fame pound
to the thanks of his country, for tiling his endeavours
to prevent fo important a branch of her commerce
and her confequence, from being ruined ; for this
he was fure muft be the refult, if fome effeetual
meafure of relief be not fpecdily devife '. Here
the Hon. Member went into a feries of calculae
tions, from which be deduced that the balance of
trade in favour of this country, in her ciimmerce
with the Weft India Colonies, is not lefs than
three millions ; and her export, in home produce
and manufadtures, being (even millions, he would
afk, how would (land the account of the land-
owner, the manufadturer, or the monied man, if
fuch a fource was to be cut off? From theft
confiderations, he (hould hope the Hon. Member
would be inclined to revoke fome of thofe affer-
tions he had fo harfhly dealt out againa the Weft
India Merchants ; for when he looked round him
and refs red on the fervices rendered by thofe
Gentlemen to this country, he could not help
thinking they merited very different treatment.
Mr. ATKINs ftipported the like arguments.
Mr. VAN SIT TAR T 1 at the fame time that lie
fupported the policy and prudence of the prefent
Bill, obferved, that notwithftanding what had
fallen from other Hon. Gentlemen, who alto fup-
ported it, the interefts of the perfons concerned in
the Weft India trade had at no time been treated,
with negled or inattention by the Government or
the Legiflature of this country. It was a trade in
which vaft fums of Britifh capital were already
veiled ; many thoufands of British fubjefts inte-
rafted, as the means of their livelihood, and,
therefore, a matter of too much importance at
any time, to elude the care and attention of Go.
vernment. Neither could the Gentlemen of that
trade complain of any backwardnels to afford
them relief when it appeared neced:iry. No
hadlongel:
,a 4
large furs
fence
nce than the year 1800, a•
. WS. .• . • • r 1

• •
;n that trail'.. Whatcver difadvanfages the tradei
have hiboured under of late, there could be
Fttc.c from the preterit afc& of our affairs
in ;;,at Quaver cf the globe, and the refloration
of peace, but the colonial interetts would rife
St. Domingo, which, in 1789, imme-
dipiv heicre the revolution, had freighted home
to Frince no Izi's than 470 large Ihips, was now
r.jucec; to ft.ch a time as to be wurfe than wholly
..c ; Guadalotipe,alti) a very fertile ifland,
rofpea elbeincy, equally reduced. Thole
twn iources of Weil India produce *cut off, the
skinand of Europe mita of courfe be tinned
ti .;,c produce of the Brit Colonies , and the
p •
coateg.tetice to our Wett India Trade mutt be too
obvt-iti, to require comment, as Loon as trade
£nd its level. The confideration
u:•ich induced the prefent meafure now before the
was the immenie flock of fugar on hand,
,n.ch, ;I it were to meet the produce of another
:,!,I,•J.,it year at market, vould fo lower the price,
be ex:r;:mely injurious to the proprietors, to
„Loin it was it rogive every fair advantage.
atti:it;ed the full force of thofe argurne..As
which htc-.1 offered to prove the importance
Cl the We:l Ind:a Trade, to the manufaCtures, the
eornme! ce, the !evenue, and the navy of this
coun..rv, aid la:(.1, it mull he always the with as
well as the intereft of Government and the Legif-
lame, to give that trade every necefrark protec-
ticn arid fcpport.
nr.J.ll;iso:4 role to explain.
The quettion being put, the bill was read tee
third time, paired, and ordered to the Lords.
twinsLtsEx ELECTTON•
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT Tat to call the attention
of the Houfe to the fuhjetl to which he had ad.
vetted on a former day. It had been fuggefted
to hint by an Hon. Friend, not now prefenr, that
it would be better for him to explain to the Houle
what the Iptcific ground of his complaint was,
and to leave to a future day any refolutionswhich
lie might think it expedient to move on it, in cate
co other Menibcr chile to take up the bufinels.—
Though he. was very much inclined to accede to
this foggeflicn, he thould be guided by what ap-
peared to be the difpoiltion of the Houle. The'
Hon. Baronet proceeded to slate the ground of
eomplaini. It eras cbota• ined in the fubftance of
letter from Mr. Mainwaring, to a meeting of
his friends held at the Crown and Anchor Tavern,
and the refolutions adopted by the Gentlemen
eutnpang that meeting: The publication of this
letter and there refolutiotis, which appeared in the
True Briton, he complained of as a high breach of
the privileges of the Houle.
. The letter and refolutions were read at the table
by the Hon. Baronet, and afterwards entered as
tad by the Clet k in the Journals of the Houfe. •
The previous fermi being gone through,' the
Hon. Baronet proceeded to fay, that on the nature
Of the papers now read, he thought there could
not be two opinions. Every Member muff agree
that the publication of fuch papers was extremely
Indecorous, and that the only object of fuch a
publication was to prejudice the minds of Members
in thtfuture consideration of the merits of the
tlettion before a Committee. Thinking this to be
the cafe, he thought it would be ptoper for him
to folio* by this opinion by reading the Refolu-
tions which he wifhed to fubmit to the confidera-
tion of the Houfe.

The two refolutions were to the following effea :
2. That then a Petition complaining of an undue return on
tny ElLetion has. been retillarly prefented to the Houfe, any
publ:cation tending ro prejudge the merits of fuch Petition, or
to influence the Wilds of Members, who might hereafter be
appointed to deci.le upon it in a Committee, is contrary to the
Prilitege% of Parliament, and a high contempt of the Privikges
of that Houfe.
The 2d likErnbition was deigned to declare any fubfeription
for carrying on any fuch Petition fo prefented to be equally
iiatal and uoparliaineztary.
Having read the refolutions, the Honourable
Baronet v. ilhed to know, whether there was a dif-
pofition nn the part of the Houfe, that he ibOUiti
proceed md.rh them in the anal form ?

Mt. Tacaptroa, as-one of thofe particularly al-
luded to, wailed the .bufinefs to go on, .and this
appeared to be the general with of tile Houfe.
Sir Fesscis accordingly proceeded to contend
that the Itefolutions which he hact.now the honour
of fibmitting were Maly Parliamentary. No one,
he wAs cep tain, could argue that in the inferior
Courts fuch a publication as that 'which he bad al-
laded to would not be confidered as a high con-
tempt of their privileges and jurifditEtion. Whether
the Houk would be difpofed to view it in the fame
light, as i: regarded their privileges, it was not for
him to decide, though it (truck his mind that there
fnould be a greater anxiety to guard againft any
thing like prejudice, partiality or influence. Such
trelings were not furpeited to exi It in inferior Courts,
but in that Houfe their operation was more natural,
and at different times the Monte had found it ne-
ceittry to guard againft their influence by pofitive
enaCtments. What he now raid applied particularly
to the Fait of the Refolutions, but the fame prin-
ciple applied to the fecond with equal force. If it
vras illegal and unconflitutional to offer ant pub-
lic opinion on the merits of a cattle pending its
de-
"iion, it was furely equally fo to attempt to tn.
tience that decifion by entering into any Inbrcrip.
tiun for that pupae. He did not mean to prefer
ally complaint againft a particular individual, but
he felt it his dot y to bring the matter before the
Houle, that they might have an opportunity of
determining how far their dignity was compromif-
ed by permitting fuch proceeding to pars unnoticed.
He was quite difpored to puth the matter no fur-
ther than a general Refolution, which would an-
firer every purpofe he had in view.
The Sm. fa again putting it to the Hon. Ba-
ronet from the Chair, whether he meant to complain
of any particular Member for a breach of privilege?
be :Rain anfwered diftinetly in the negative.
The h it Refolution was then regularly prnpofed.
111 r. I'HORNTOM briefly vindicated his conduit,
wad fisted the motives on which it was founded.—
As a i elcaor of the coonry of Midtilefer, he felt
that he had duties to ri lam which in their nature
at !%1 conf -nences were not leis important than
whi he was called upon to exercife as a
i'lernher It Houle. If he was bound as a

. -
&Wye right, and frinehifes, on the proper fop
port of which the very exiftence of that Houfe
depended. By the return of the Hon. Baronet,
by means on which .at prefent it was not for him
to give an opinion, he had' found his own vote,
and the votes of a great proportion of other free-
holders, renderei4 nugatory. In perle conliftency
with his ditty, without any motives of perfonal
holfility to the Hon. Baronet, without the fmalleft
with to prejudice the minds of any Member of the
Houfe, he had, in conjunction with others holding
opinion on this matter fimilar to himielf, tiled every
means to get this molt valuable franchife reftored.
By what other means than thole which had been
reforted to, this object could be effected, lie confelred
himfelf unable to difcover, and, therefore, he felt
confcions of no criminality.
Lord HAWKESBURY contended that the refolii-
,
tions proceeded on an erroneous (Eitel/lent of &Cis.
They proceeded on the fuppotition that the merits
of thc petition in quellion were prejudged by the
publication complained of, but what was the real
fituation of the cafe ? An Honourable Gentleman
had prefented a petition, complaining that the Ho.
nourable Baronet had, by undue means, procured
his return as one of the Members for Middlefex ;
and in confequence of this flatennent calling on the
Hcnife to take the matter into their lei ious conli
deration. With refpeet to the language in which
the petition was couched, it was as calm, tempe-
rate, and decorous as the nature of the complaint
would admit. In this there was nothing indeco-
rous. But what were a number of Gentlemen,
who by this return conceived their elective fran-
chifes to be invaded and rendered nugatory, and
who concurred with the petitioner that it was by
the means which he had pointed out that this ef-
feet was produced, to do, in attempting to invali-
date an election which they conceived to be illegal?
Were they not to declare their fentiments fairly
and openly on the fubjed ? He himfelf had read
the advertifement complained of, and certainly
nothing ever ftruck his mind as more innocent, or
There unobjectionable; it was a fimple declaration,
that in the opinion of the Gentlemen compoling
the Meeting, the Honourable Baronet had, by on-
jutlifiable means, fecured a pretended return, and
that every meafure might to be reforted to, to pro-
cure its abolition. Haying laid, that he conceived
the general principle to be correct, it was hardly
necelfary for him to add, that a refolution to enter
into, or to promote a fubfcription, was equally
juftifiable ott every confideration ofjuflice and pro-
priety. The argument againft it, from the idea of
its tending to prejudge the merits of the caufe, he
thought quite inconclufive ; the Houle at large
were above any fuch influence, and the particular
Members alluded to were, according to the Rules
of the lionfe, excluded, from their connexion with
Middlefex, in the capacity of Eleflors, from vot-
ing on either fide in the decifion of the petition.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT declared that he did not
with to prefs the Houk to any decifion on the Re-
folutions he had fubmitted to their confederation.
He was willing to withdraw them, but could not
allow, with the Noble Lord, that they were not
founded on conftimional grounds. In laying that
they were fit to be introduced to the Houfe, he
was fupported by law authorities of the firft weight.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQVER briefly
pointed out in what refpeft he thought the Refolu-
tions unneceffary, illuftrating and confirming what
was faid by the Noble Lord who fpoke Taft but
one on the fubjeet. He accufed the Hon. Baronet
of, in the Taft day when, this fubjeft was mentioned,
calling an imputation on the chat after of two Mem-
bers, which charge he had not followed up on the
prefent occasion.
Sir FRANCIS Buerirrr, with great fpirit, dif-
claimed any perfonal reflection on a former day,
on the charafter of any. Member of that Houfe.
He had merely applied to tht Chair for informa-
tion, whethers as the Motion particularly relpefted
two Hon. Members, their prefence would be ne-
ceffary, as he thought it would not be handfome
to agitate a bufinels in which they were concerned
in their abfence.

The Reinlotions were then negatived without a
divifion.—Adjourned.

••••••••\.•uc A Al callVE anus
thing like prejudice, part
feelings were not fufpeaed
but in that Houfe their op
and at different times the
ceirary to guard againil
enaetmentb. What he nov
to the firll of the Refolut
ciple applied to the fecon
was ►llegal and unconflit
lie op►n►on on the merits
ciiinn, it was furely equa
itience that decifion by e
nun for that purpofe. I
aoy complaint againfi al
he felt it his dety t.o brin
Houle, that they might
determining how far thci
ed by permitting fuch pro
He WAS q►►ite difpofed to
Cher than a general Rein!
fiver every purpofe he ha
The SrEAkia again pi
rnnet from theCha►r,whei
of any particular Member
be again anfwered dilline
The tit Refol►►tion was
Mr. THORNTON briefly
d3d hated the motives or
As a I tiCaOr ol• the cotl!
that he had duties pert
and confequences were
thofe which he was call
Member .of that Hook.