Star.
London, England, 1830-03-06 00:00:00

SOFTLY.

On the motion of the CHANCZLLOR Of the Erdnzauri, the'
Order of the Day for receiving the Report of Supply was read.
Sir ALEXANDER GRANT brought up the report.
On the question that 88,848 men should be retained foe the land
savior for the year,
Mr. HU3IE said that, after the attempt made in the committee to
reduce the number of the army below the amount now submitted, it
was not his intention at present to do more than record his opinion
that the country was now in a situation in which so large and over-
whelming a military establishment ought no longer to be kept up.l
He would beg to assure the hon. member for Suffolk, and all those
gentlemen who ea feelingly pourtrayed the disnesses of the coon.
try, that if they wished to obtain relief for their constituents,l
they never could do it unless they came forward to oppose this enor-
mous military establishment. It was the exorbitant scale of the
army, navy, and ordnance, that weighed down the country, and he
wished to enter his protest against such a load being imposed upon
the nation as it was totally unable to bear. Although there were
many gen•lemen who might object to the reduction of the efil-1
cient disposable force, yet he begged to suggest • department in
which • very considerable saving would be effected without the
slightest inconvenience to the public service. Of three regi.
menus of Royal Horse Guards and Life Guards, which, in 1792,
were 779 in all, the number was now 1,304 These troops were
kept up for no other purpose than parade; and really, in such a
situation of affairs as the present, so ex naive and extravagant a
parade need not be kept up. He that a reduction of 525
he
would take place in these troops, an
that they would be brought
down to what they were in 1792. The Foot Guards which, in
1792, were 3,7611, were now 5,726. In these a large reduction
might also be made ; 1,960 might be taken off the number. Ano.
they expensive establishment was that of the cavalry, which, in
1792, were 5.409, but were now 7,157. All these branches of
the military force, whiat were 6,554 in 1799, at present were
14,118. As the right hon. Secretary for the Home Department
had instituted a new police, he hoped that, when he found it
answer, as he had no doubt it would, he would see the propriety
of proportionately reducing the unnecessary extent of the military
establishment. The reductions which he proposed in the above
troops would amount to 4.214 ; In addition to which, he would
take 5,786 of the: infantry from Ireland. The total reduction
would thus be 10,000 men. He should, therefore, beg leave, at
present, to move that 71,164 should be the number of men re.
tamed for the service to which the present resolution applied.
Sir HENRY HA RDINGE said that as the object of the bon.
member was merely to record his opinion on the journals of the
house, he should not trouble the house with any observations in an.
ewer to the hon. gentleman's statements.
The question was then put.
Mr. Huste's amendment was negatived, and the original reso.
lotion wee agreed to.
On the resolution that 29,000 be the number of men retained for
the sea service,
Lord ALTHORP begged to put a question to the right hon.
gentleman opposite, with a view to obtain some satisfaction upon a
point of much Interest to himself, and to all who were anxious for
the honour of the navy of this kingdom. His question referred to
a transaction which, in his opinion, as well as in the opinion of all
who had attended to it. was one of the most brilliant actions of our
navy, and which, for some reason which perhaps the right honour.
able gentleman opposite would be good enough to explain, had
never been mentioned in the Gentle. He alluded to the slide of
Patras, a little previous to the battle of Navarino. A Turkish fleet
of 50 vessels, under the orders of the Paella of Egypt, sailed from
Navarino to Patras, and Sir Edward Codriogton, with a compara-
tively small force, resisted the approach of the Turks, and com-
riled them to return, notwithstanding their sup:fierily ofstrength.
The action was a moat hasardous and gallant one, and it excited
some surprise that it had never appeared in the Casette. He wished
to know if there was any, and what reason, for that circumstance,
as, in point of fact, the event to which he refeered was the first
commencement of hostilities with the Turks. He thought it im.
portant for the credit of the navy that some explanation should be
given why so gallant an achievement had not been acknowledged In
the usual way. He should be glad if the right hon. and gallant
Admiral would state what the reasons were, if there were any, why
the circumstance had not been announced in the Gosette,

Sir 0. COCKBURN said he was sorry that the noble lord bad
not let him know of his intention to put this question, in order that
he might have been able to give a more satisfactory reply. He be.
hued there was no reason for not acting as the noble lord seemed
to wish had been done, except this, that, as far es his recollection
served him, although the conduct of the Admiral and his officers
sod men was, as the noble lord described it, quite right and pro.
per, brilliant the affair could not well be called, except so far as
the intention went ; but, so far as his recollection went, the event
amounted to no more than this, that an our ships insisting upon
tire Turks going hack they did go back, and, so far as he :einem-
bered, there was no action.--(Lord Althorp observed that there
were shots fired.] He could only say, that, according to his recol-
lection, it was not an action such as those which were usually in-
serted in the Casette. If it had been such, there could have been
no reason for its not being inserted. He would, however, take care
to inform himself of the particulars, and be prepared to give the
noble lord au answer when the next question of Supply should
come on.

Mr. HUME begged the house to recollect that, by the resolution
of the Finance Committee of 1817, the number of seamen and ma-
rines was fixed at 19,000, as the highest number requisite for the
protectititof the kingdom ; and yet now, in a time of risofourd
peace, the house was called on to vote 29,000 men. He should do
no more, on the present occasion, than enter his protest &pipet this
eetravagant expenditure.
The resolution, as well as others in the report, was then agreed to.
Sir H. HARDINOE' gave notice that, on the *4th inst. he
should move for leave to bring in the Mutiny Bill.
Mr. CHOKER gave a similar notice respecting the Marine
Mutiny Bill.
Mr. N. CALVERT moved• the order of the day fora committee
of the whole house en the East Retford Bill.
On the question that the Secant' should leave the chair,
Mr. TENNYSON rise to move that it should be an instruction
to the committee on the East Retford Bill that they should have
power to exclude East Retford from electing members to serve in
Parliament, and to enable Birmingham to send representatives in-
stead. There bad bees five divisions on this question since 1818.
On the first there was a majority of 36; the next majority was
SO. Afterwards, when it became a party question, there was a
majority of 96. Last year, when, he was sorry to say, it was still a
party question, the number of The majority was 81; but, on the
only division which took place this Session, the majority was re-
duced by 60 or 70 votes. His noble friend near him (Lord J. Russell)
bad submitted a very judicious motion fora limited reform, by admit.
ting the canunercial interests to a certain share in the representationt
But that was rejected on the ground that, although limited in itx
effect, it was unlimited in its principle but those who urged this
injection all admitted, at the same time that eases of cor-
ruption ought to be seised upon as furnishing pod opportuni-
ties for transferring the representation to unrepresented commercial
towns. lie understood the right boa. gentlemen, the secretary for
tie colonies and the secretary for the home department, to have
avowed that opinion ; and he now begged leave to introduce to the
notice of all who held such sentiments East Retford, as giving them
the means of proving their sincerity. This case seemed to be pre.
citely made for them. It was • case sot of partial or temporsey,
but of universal and overwhelming, corruption. The house had
already promiunced a unanimous opinion--at least with the eitop
too of two has. gentlemen-.-that It was a ease which deserved to be
meet severely desk with. He should therefore expect the support
of tee bow is 11/ostsuidthat it should be an instruction to the ems.,
mine/ that they haverzwirlento exclude East Redid hem
electing members to serve in t, sad to enable Birmingham
to rotors atemben Memo/ thereof.

Mr. W. SMITH said he had braid it argued that sufficient guilt
bad not been proved against Fast Refold to justify the bringing
in such a bill. He begged to say that the nature of the punish-
ment of disfranchisement did not appear to bin. that species of
punishment which required distinct legal proof. But as to the cor-
ruption having existed in that borough, if not from time immemo-
rial, at least for a considerable time, be would ask any man to lay
his hand on his heart and say whether he could disbelieve the fact.
Indeed, it would be in his power to put it to the honour of many
bona gentlemen whether they did not know of their own knowledge
that these practices existed, and that there was no getting
in to represent the borough without conforming to them. (Hear.)
It was, in his view of the state of our representation, far from right
to continue to Nottinghamshire such a ahare of representation as it
at present ; which, all must allow. was greater than it
wsa entid to, taking into consideration its extent and population
as compared with many other counties in England. And after
making this avowal he would make another, namely, for him's!f he
would rather allow the state of the representation, bud as it was at
present in East Retford, to continue as it was than permit the re.
presentation to be spread into the hundred of Basactlaw jointly with
the rescued votes of East Retford. For these reasons he should
support the motion of his honourable friend.
11r. FEROUSSON perfectly coincided in the opinion of his hon.
friend who had preceded him, that the present was an occasion
given to set at rest the long mooted question whether the great ma-
nufacturing classes, and the great manufacturing towns, such as
Manchester, Birmingham, Leeds, and Sheffield, should or should
not be represented in that house. He, however disinclined to in.
fringe on the articles of union, could not see that Scotland, os
Ireland, would suffer in the general representation in their just pa.
portions, in consequence of granting the franchise to Birmingham in
this instance, and he confessed he could leas the propriety of
making the act of union of Scotland or of Ireland a never-failing bee
to imprvvement, and a perpetuation of abuse.
Mr. BATLEY assured the hon. member there was no used is
entertain any apprehension that the time was very distant when do
great manufacturing towns would, as a necessary consequence of
their growing wealth and importance, be fully and adequately re-
presented. When the proper time and occasion arrived, he would
not shrink from doing his -duty by those great communities, but in
the present instance be felt too many objections to the motion to
permit him to give it hies assent.__ _

Mr. Aldermin WA ITH M A N observed, so entirely did he agree
in the propriety of vindicating in this instance the purity of the re-
presentation, that had the motion been for disfranchising all the
rotten parts of the Constitution, which, as Lord Chatham well ob-
served, if they would not drop off, should be lopped off at one blow,
it should have his entire concurrence. Alluding to the household
troops in that political garrison (a laugh), he would tell the right
honourable gentleman, that though now always sure, through them,
of a majority, and might sit silently, and still safely calculate on
it, yet if he would consent to let the household troops go out
and leave them to divide as they liked amongst themselves—
(a laugh), the country party would then be always sure of a swing.
ing majority. (Loud laughter and cheering.) It was of little use
to talk now of the disinclination of parliament to make any ar.
rangetnents which might appear in this ease to savour of a violation
of sets of union on the one hand, or of confounding the innocent in
the punishment of the guilty on the other. These great towns
would do themselves justice, and in the instance of one of them,
Birmingham, had done justice to•their pretensions, and now pos-
sessed a Parliament watching over and influencing e proceedings
in another place.
Sir C. COLE agreed these great towns were inadequately repre-
sented, although he was not disposed to sanction any of the wild and
sweeping progress of reform abroad.
Mr. LIDDELL thought the opportunity now afforded to Par.
liansent to assert its own dignity and character so fortunate and so
Imperative upon it to improve, that should the house refuse to adopt
the instruction moved by the hon. member for Bletchingly, he
pledged himself when next the noble lord (Lord John Russell)
brought on his measure of general reform he would vote for it.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY was desirous, he acknowledged, that
when a proper opportunity offered the great towns alluded to should
be admitted to a full and fair share of the elective franchise. From
the consistency of their conduct, and the tone of their petitions and
applications, he could, if they needed a motto, he thought, furnish
them with one very appropriate " Concordia creamer" As he
had formerly supported the motion of his boo. friend (the Member
for Hertford), and his sentiments continued unchanged, his vote
should be in accordance with that be had formerly given.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, that the condition of this country
and of the great interests of society were so much altered and im-
proved of late years, that it was now become a case of absolute no.
cesai:y that each class in the community should, either directly or
mediately be represented in that house, so that its interests should
not be compromised foe want of being espoused by men of Wenn&
tion and acquaintance with the different bearings of each imam Is
the agrieultural, manufacturing, and commercial classes. Of dot
class of men be hoped the house would receive a strong relnil ies.
meat whenever the great towns were admitted into the repreasswileg
in parliament. Hoping that his majesty's government, weal, he
the end, be guided by a desire to consult the best interests of ik
country, he should support, in this instance, the motion of the hok
member for Bletchingly.
Mr. WILMOT HORTON was convinced these were great
vantages to be derived from granting the ftanchise to the great towns,
and against that extension of the representation he confessed he had
as yet heard nothing advanced In the way of argument to shake his
previously avowed conviction. With respect to the late transactions
at Birmingham, he, for his part, was pleased to find there was so
little ground to anticipate that any alarm was likely to be token by
those who were as =acutely sensitive on the subject of reform.
The SOLICITOR.GENERAL agreed with those who thought
that Bost Retford ought not to be left without any representation at
all, as it would be unfair to confound the innocent and the guilty
in the same punishment. He thought, however, that if they gave
the representation to the large towns, the consequences would be
far from being attended with unmixed good. Considering the state
in which the house stood, it was not desirable that they should re-
trace their steps.lt was established by the votes of that house that the
was corrupt, and that some steps ought to be taken to punish
borough was
Looking at the question cats practical men, it be-
came them to soosider what would be likely to pass in another
place. Under all the circumstances, he should feel it his duty to
vote for the motion.

Sir B. COOPER agreed that punishment was due to the bo.
rough, but not to the extent of disfranchisement. He submitted to
ministers whether, in consideration of the signs of the times, it
would not be better to assist in that moderate reform which was
every day pining strength, by throwing the votes into seine large
town, rather than in the adjacent hundreds.
Mr. 8. RICE objected to the doctrine laid down by the Solicitor.
General, as new to that house and to the constitution of the country,
the doctrine that they ought to discuss that question,not according to
what appeared just In their eyes, or consistent with the duty they
owed their constituents, but according as it was likely to suit the
wishes of noble lords in the other house. (Hear, hear bor.).—
It was much to be regretted that the bill had not now come for the
tint time Into that house, unincumbered by those previous pledges
which rendered it one of the most complex and difficult measures
that ever was dealt with by parliament. Under all tht circum.
stances, be did not see how they could come to a decision against
giving the franchise to large towns, unless they were prepared to
argue that the disposition of the House of Lords should be coo.
suited in ptefertece to their own sense of what was expedient.
The SOLICITOMENERAL and 111 r. 8. RICE mutually
eitied.
II.nPEEL said that, upon a question so discussed
as the ore before the house, he would occupy t little at their
lima, espe iallll ea them was an Important discussion to soma it.
He did not underwnd his right honourable Mend, the secretary of
state. to say that be would vote oa the present occasion as he had
voted on the former occasion, and for no other reason but because
he saw that the same grounds were applicable to both occasions.
Neither did he think that his learned friend hid alluded to the
House of Lords in any other than its judicial capacity in what he
had said. (Hear.) With regard to the question •he did
not think it necessary to discuss whether those who had voted for
the transfer of the franchise to a large town were bound to act upon
the same principle now, for the two gentlemen who had charge of
the bill had so voted on the former occasion. He though; how.
ever, that gentlemen appeared greatly to underrate the advantage of
throwing due into the Haodteds. It was consistent with the prac-
tice which had hitherto prevailed 1 not a very old practice it was
true, for the whole process was of recent origin t but, from the be.
ginning, it had the sanction of the moderate reformers. No man
approved of it more cordially than Lord Chatham, who, on the
question of the delinquency of Shoreham, did not hesitate to
throw the votes Into the Hundred of &amber. Upon that oe.
cad= Lord•Chatharn said he rejoiced that they had snatched tbs
borough from India'. (the Company having fesursrly had an Interest
there), and restored it to England. In the same way Mr. Pitt, Mr.
Fox, and all the Wenner' a that time, aster thought of trans.
grind the franchise from Cricklade into any of the goat towns.
The same course waa mid with respect to Ayleehozy= it was
thrown into the hundred; and when Mr. Fox opposed the bill,
his objection was not that the franchise ought to be given to a goat
town, but because the delinqz7thad not been fully end,
therefore, that the not to be at all
(Hai, beer.) If theybortatd to the three intim, thee Urea
of, they would And that the principle had worked well, sod that
thee woe no places more free either from aristocratical* emir
Whims than that which had been famed out of do imidapt
beeseihe. lb was far Area thistles that the landed amilsetinie•
dal issesede of we eivasaw IMPS dipped is sash other, de* their
maks did sea appear to he very. smugly maid In dte aimed
that West t they wet., in the manwagged ewes el *NW
idautifiel. ihs 00 he tessld advise the peademps
the leaded intermit te lak fir their hiir share in'tbe dietelbollem et

the franchise. He thought that the noble lord himself (Lord John
Russell) had recognised this principle when he proposed that
out of the one hundred franchises at the disposal of the house,
00 should be given to the landed interest, and only 40 to the comma.
vial. Mr. Pitt had made a similar proposition in his day, when he
wished to give 00 to the counties and forty to the towns ; and there
was no reason, as far as he ( Mr. Peel) could see, for abandoning
the consideration at present. He saw no new circumstances in this
debate which would induce him to depart from the course which be
took upon a former occasion, when this subject was before the house,
and the evidence was fresh in the recollection of members. Looking
then at this case as taken by itself, and as not involving any general
question, he repeated that he saw nothing to make him depart from
his former vote, and he hoped the house would come to the same
conclusion. _ _ _ _

---LeniAiTHORP admitted that the extension of the franchise to
Bassetlaw was a great improvement, and he should be glad to take
it, if he could get nothing else. At the same time it was very true
that it was most important to give this valuable privilege to the
great manufacturing towns of the kingdom.
Dr. PH ILLIMORE recapitulated the history of the proceedings
with respect to the disfranchisement of Penryn and East Retlord,
for the purpose of showing that they commented under the ministry
of Mr. Canning. Whatever difference of opinion might prevail in
this house with respect to the disposal of this franchise, he was
sure the time was arrived when all men of sense and education ex-
pected that the franchise would be transferred to the great towns,
and it was nothing but infatuation 'o oppose the transfer.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, in reply to what had been said by the
right hon. gentleman (Mr. Peel.) with respect to giving 100 new'
members, said, that he still adhered to his original statement ; but
was there no difference between disposing of two members already
in the house and introducing so many new members to the house ?
Mr. HUSKISSON did not, after the discussion which the sub.
jest had undergone, intend to trouble the house with more than a
very few observations. The great principle which ought to govern
their derision was, not that the landed or the agricultural interests
should be properly represented, but that every interest should be re.
presented (hear, hear!). The question was, whether they should
glve• representative to Birmingham—to one of the chief places of
that interest which they had acknowledged,the other evening, to be the
vary foundation of the landed and of all the other interests of the
country (hear, hear !). Whatever might be the fate of the amend-
ment then before the house, he consoled himself by the reflection,
that the time was not far distant when government would find
themselves compelled to propose the very reformations which they
now rejected.
The house then divided--

For the original Question .... • ... . 162
For the Amendment ... . ... ll9
Majority ............. —33
On returning to the gallery, we found—
Mr. O'CONNELL moving an instruction to the committee,
that the votes at the election of the members should be taken by
ballot. He certainly did not entertain any very vivid hopes of
success to his proposition, but he felt a deep interest in the discus-1
sions to which it must give rise. He would not detain the house
by any discussion on the great constitutional questions involved in
it, but proceed at once to state the reasons which influenced him
in favour of taking the votes in any manner rather than the
present. Votes at elections were influenced either by tenor or by
corruption. The ballot left every man at liberty to express his
conscientious opinion of a candidate, without being subjected to those
consequences which followed the present mode of polling in person.
Tradesmen were influenced by customers at elections, and the land-1
lords' hints were efficacious ; and these hints were notorious, though
they were deemed to be scandalous in that house when proved. This
would be prevented by ballot; and that ballot might be tried, to
see if, in this case, it would be beneficially operative. Another
mode of influencing votes was by direct bribery and patronage : the
object of this bill was to punish and to prevent bribery. Now,
he maintained that the best mode of effecting this was by ballot.—
Ballot was already adopted in voluntary societies, in chartered corn.
patties, such as in the Bank of England and in the East India COM. 1
pany ; for by Ballot the Directors were chosen, and they had to I
govern 100,000,000 of people. The ballot system was DO novelty :
it was established in America, in nine tenths of the States of the
Union; and only cross the channel, it would be seen that of the
110,000 e lectors of France, a majority voted against ministers,
though the Government Itsi4o,ooo placemen under their influence.
—(Hear, hear.) This system alone COUld MOO freedom, put
corruptioni under (tut, and me Intimidation at defiance. He might
be told that the system would produce by ley and unmanliness,
but he should like to see the fire-bannehmen who had re.
eeived the notices to quit from the Duke of eweastle, at East Rei-
fied. But if the ballot system were established, he would say still,
let any man publish his vote if he pleased. He would rather a
man should have the choice, and those who looked for sa-
lutary Reform, ought to assist him in this motion. Applying
the ballot system to East Retford would convince the house in
time of the possibility of applying that system generally ;
and it would show that the practice would be attended with
perfect safety. It would be only an extent of mischief to extend
the elective franchise without accompanying it with the ballot,
which would prevent all the excitement, the violence, the entrap,
and the intoxication now incidental to an election, whilst it would
make even the most general elector decorous and deliberate. To
those who said that the house at present was the best constituted
assembly in the world, he would hardly condescend to reply—
that the people of England had a sight to be represented
freely, and that no man had a right to be in that house who
was not fairly elected by the people. The people had forced
their liberties from tbe Crown, after many and many a struggle,
in which even royal blood had been sacrificed. but the aris-
tocracy had reaped all the fruits of the victory. That house held
many and many a nominee of the oligarch , and the right honour.
able gentleman opposite were but the nod of the nominees of
the aristocracy. A person had at Manchester termed this a sordid
aristocracy ; he would net nee such a term in that house, but those
who laboured tinder the wean might be allowed the use of strong
language. The people bed a right to ask who bad raddled them
with a debt et 1110$1.411•11. for the patronage of the ermy,the navy,
the civil dices, and the oelketion of the Isms t He was very sorry
to say, that since he bed heals that house he had had no occasion
to alter the °Oahe be had prebieusly entertained of it. He should
now move " That haftesdoes be given to the committee that the
election be conducted by ballot."
The SPEAKER eaM that no amendment could be put now, u
the house decided that he was to quit the chair. The hen.. member
could require no ineesedoes that be might move his amendment
in the committee.
The house resolved itself into a committee.
Mr. O'CONNELL then put his amendment.
Mr. PEEL said that the ham. member ought to defies what he
meant by ballot.
Mr. HUME was not aware of any difficulty, for ballots hap-
pened every day for juries and other offices i the principle was the
object, and not the detail.
Mr. HOBHOUSE suggested that it would be better if the hon.
member for Clare would introduce his measure in some form which
would admit of specific details. He would support the hon. man.
bee's proposition when it was brought forward.
Mr. PEEL thought this was not the time to discuss the prin.
ciple ; and be was averse to it.
Mr. O'CONNELL was averse to discussing the principle and
details together. If the committee reported progress, in the interim
he could prepare the detail.
Mr. Ni, ESTERN gave his most decided negative to the system
of ballot, as destructive of the principles of elections.
Mr. WARBURTON supported the preposition of the hon. and
learned member for Clare. The corruption and intlesidatioe of else.
tors which occurred, act only in corrupt bcooughs, but in large
places, would be prevented by the adoption of the system of ballot.
So Arm it was, that Meru& opeknatiesione note motile nen
littera suns.

Mr. MARTIN was adverse to the system of ballots and con.
calved that it was much better that met should cent forward and
vote openly and boldly.
11r. STANLEY, although a friend to Telma, was not disposed
to deprive the higher orders of their legitimate influence. It was
an English principle interwoven with our representative system.
Although a friend to reform, he should be sorry to see our repro-
sentation In the state in which it wee In America. But even in
America the system of ballot was net always found benelicieL He
thought the honourable and leaned member he Clore had, how.
ever, better bring forward his peepothion in the elope of a rider to
the bill, which would admit of a tall thenrden of dee prodple.
Lord NUGENT was not (le we nadreesed the noble lord) pee.
paled to entertain the clause pewees* by the hen. and leaned
member for Clare. At the sere dre, there wee each to be said
for the system of bsUot Oatpeat sseermaidadon of it was, that
if two knaves met, the sae to elk; the other to reeve a bibs, she
more the one could be encouraged to obese the ether, the bet* the
the public.
Mr. P. THOhISON was a friend so the ballot system but Mid
the ben. sad honied awake foe Ore would withdraw hi rewmt
peopeska, the of ballot might be at a
moue
.1110 VJ did not think the honourable and horsed
seunibar he Chee had been hirly treand. The benne hall shown
itself admen many wroth martin of rheas ; and the hen wed
hard earth. htOre, to suit dodo Worm view of the wrest,
papas& the hirednetha of the lid* of ballet in this pith
air bosoms, by way et spiabms. le was losposible shut she
=orb Is this does am sold brimless*, of as doss
mow boseroble sossboms NNW se mosSool ham
crithetionadegelea. What siege et die Sadsahl "be
to he Is
iu.most Wby a his lommabb sat
WNW Noma lovas do bob la all die bylaw do.
sibf4,,Nimais lossilsiok null be bed osolobbsd ~NI
Ars" tie it k t These loos wipe

7

to the system et ballot talked et the danger that would arise
from it. What danger could arise from trying the experiment
in a single instance ? The right honourable gendeman said that
there would be greater evils, mere corruptions, more hypocrisy,
under the system of ballot, than under our present system. If
after the adoption et his honourable and learned friend's prop°.
sition that should prove to be the cue' it would be very easy
to stop, and to retrace their steps. It should be recollected that
the system of ballot was the system resorted to In the forms.
tion of juries, and even in the formation of committees of that
house. The simple question was, which was the best system for the
public good ? If corruption and intimidation did not exist, ballot
could not create them ; if they did exist, ballot would disarm them.
Were the right of election general—bad every man that right, he
should laugh at the introduction of the system of ballot t he should
want no other protection for the liberties of the country. But under
our present system, if we were not allowed to apply the general and
effective remedy of universal reform, let us at least apply the lenient
remedy proposed by his hon. and learned friend. If elections were
entirely free, ballot would be unnecessary ; but, that not being the
ease, his hon. and learned friend's proposition was an excellent pal.
liative for a bad system. It would prevent that tyranny over the
conscience which at present was so scandalously exercised.
Mr. PEEL denied that either the law respecting juries or the
election of that house for committees bore any similarity to the
principle of voting by ballot at a general election. He greatly
doubted whether bribery and corruption would be lessened by voting
by ballot. But the question, as he before observed, was too ex-
tensive and important to be entered upon at such a late hour of the
night, as it then was eleven o'clock.
Lord ALT itOK P was as much disposed as any person in the
house to give to property its legitimate influence ; but it was such
influence as should proceed from respect and affection, and not from
intimidation. He did not see how an election by ballot would di-
minish legitimate influence, as it would not prevent persons from
voting tor those to whom they were most Finial ; and men of pro.
pony had only to sympathise with their dependents to secure their
attachment.
Mr. LAMB thought that the principle of the question could not
be well discussed until the details were before the house. He looked
on the proposed measure as Most derogatory to the honour of.. En-
g Would it not he disgraceful to the character of the coun-
try to see freemen skulking to vote at elections, and appear as if
ashamed to have it known for whom they voted ?
Lord J. RUSSELL was never partial to voting by ballot, and
he heard nothing to.night calculated to change the opinion which he
had entertained on that subject. It would introduce a system of
hypocrisy injurious to the character of an Englishman.
Sir F. BURDETT explained.
Mr. NiONCK spoke in favour of the amendment. Country gen.
denten should not object to it, for, by the present system, the
longest purse was sure to succeed, however popular the opposite
candidate might be.
Mr. O'CONNELL would not press his motion, as many gen-
tlemen had expressed themselves to be taken by surprise ; he would
postpone his amendment until the third reading. The bill went
through the committee. The house resumed, and the report was
ordered to be brought up on Monday.
The Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Grants in Aid Bill went
through the Committee, and the reports were ordered to be received
on Monday next.

THE IRISH SUBLETTING ACT.
The Order of the Day fur the second reading of the Subletting
Act, being read,
Mr. O'CONNELL requested it should bs postponed, to afford a
better opportunity for discussing it.
Mr. DOHERTY would not consent to any further postponement.
Mr. O'CONNELL suggested some amendments.
Mr. WALLACE said that the proper place to discuss the clauses
of the bill was in the committee.

Mr. NORTH agreed with the hon. member for Clare in the ob-
jections which he made, but the committee was the proper place to
make them.

After a few words from Mr. JEYHSON and Mr. KING, the
bill was read a second time. The further discussion of the motion
respecting the Indian Judges was postponed till Monday.
On the motion of 3lr. Doherty, the hill to make a provision fee
illegitimate children in Ireland, was read a first time.
Mr. O'CONNELL requested that the second reading should be
postponed till after Easter.
Mr. DOHERTY would give sufficient time.
On the motion of Mr. Hoamousz, leave was given to bring in a
bill to establish a market in Hungerford.street.
Mr. R. GRANT postponed the Jews' Emancipation Bill toWed-
nesday se'nnight.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the house
adjourned at a Quarter past Twelve o'Clock.