Star.
London, England, 1825-02-04 00:00:00

peradventure, because the interests ef that trade found
powerful and efficient patrons in the Government of the
country ? Wete we never to talk of just and liberal po-
licy, of doing right and justice where Ireland was con-
cerned—(l oudeheers.)—where one half of the em-
pire was in hazard and in suffering? True, that on
this question much difference of opinion existed, and
that it was never convenient to come to any conclu-
sive agreement. On all other matters Ministers would
make up their minds to concur ; but• on this the
most important of all, it appeared a subject of despair
to expect any concurrence among them.—(Hear).—
Was it because Ireland was the theme that discussion
was to be deprecated ? Was it because the danger which
stared theni in the face was greater ? Was it because
the eri,is was now more important, and the danger more
imminent and overwhelming, that they were to be left
out of all consideration? He was no longer to be told
that certain scruples intervened to prevent the prospect
of redress. He always deemed suck language to be
unconstitutional; to be of such a character as would
have disgraced the worst times of Charles the Second,
and which, prior to that period, would have led the ut-
terer to the scaffold—(Cheers, and a cry of Hear, hear,
from Mr. Grattan). He should like to hear his Hon.
Friend who had given utterance to that cheer, challenge
him to the proof. Would that his early friend and
patron could have lived to have heard these cheers ut-
tered, as he (Mr. Brougham) took it as a reproach, be-
Cave the name of the King ought never to have
been mentioned. His Majesty's Speech was the speech
of his Ministers, and the country could not know what
portion of it contained the real sentiments of his Majesty.
There was, however, a country, he alluded to Hanover,
where his Majesty acted on his own responsibility, and
where his opioians could be brought to the test from
the Proclamation which he had issued. A copy of one
of these Proclamations he had procured, as their worthy
Speaker had done of the King's Speech, for the sake of
greater accuracy—(/‘ laugh). He sincerely hoped they
would take the hint from the leaf, in the measures they
would pursue towards Ireland. It they did not, they
should hereafter take blame to themselves, if any con-
vulsion should take place in that country. One portion
of the Proclamation was to the effect that the Mem-
bers of all Christian persuasions should be equal,
and that there should be no predominant religion.—
It was in his opinion, inconsistent to go to the Throne
with that passage of the Address which alluded to the
Catholics cif Ireland. He would for a moment put
the Association out of the question, and if, on the part
of the Catholics generally, there was a harshness in
• their language, if they became vehement in their man-
ner, it violent and extravagant in their demands, if
alarming in their demeanour, blame not those who
have sent Petitions of such a nature, but those
who have made them violent and extravagant by
their mal-administration—those who have by that
same line of conduct given birth to the Asso- ,
ciation, and made it what it then was. There
was no truth so certain, as that the way to make
People unreasonable was to refute to concede to them
their reasonable requests. This had been done with
respect to Ireland, until their dutiful requests had been
changed to insolent demands, and now Ministers were
counselling the King to pursue measures which were
formerly opposed by some persons in the same way as
• was Catholic Emancipation then. He (Mr. B ) wished
to know where the great alarm was to be apprehended
in conceding emancipation?—Were Ministers afraid
of the resignation of some members of their body?
Were they alarmed at the Great Seal being quitted?
Of all sublunary things, such an idea never even crossed
him (Mr. Brougham) in his dreams—(Loud laughter).
'That personage had the most exemplary courage in
bearing his burthens with the most patient assiduity,
and bore contradiction with as much fortitude as
suitors in his own, Court were compelled to call to
their aid. It was a freehold estate to him for life,
and so far from having any idea of re,igaing, be
was only anxious as to the appointment of a successor.
One thing he begged the House to be on its guard
, against. The Speech spoke of Associations--it was in
• the plural number. This was one of the slyest insinu-
ations that Belial himself ever made use of—He has,
• added that s. He doubtless said, You must have
that s, because it will intimate that you do not.altoge-
ther allude to the Catholic Association;" but let not
any one suppose that it was meant with an even hand
to put down Associations, Orange as well as Catholic.
The Noble Lord regretted that the Catholic Associa-
tion should exist; but he (Mr. B.) regretted still more,
that they should have such food for exasperation. He
would take it upon himself to say, that there was not
one word which justified the charge contained in his
Speech against the Association. Their moderation was
most exemplary ; their language had been sneered at,
and their eloquence made the subject almost of a jeer ;
yet he was happy to hear the Noble Lord admit,
that he was not dispose) to treat the Association
with contempt; and doubtless the Association would
be gratified on learning that the Noble Lord did not
mean to treat six millions of people with contempt.
It had been asked, if any Catholics beyond those who
had enrolled themselves in the Association, went heart
and hand in its measures with it? He (Mr. Brougham)
was led into a benighted en or, if the Association was
not a virtual and fair representation of the whole Ca-
tholic body ; and an attack on the Association, by
Act of Parliament, would be nothing less than making
war on the Catholic people of Iceland, and to legislate
under such circumstances was a moral impossibility.
He was aware that he would have to contend against
the mock alarms of some, and the groundless fears of
others ; but on the first moving for leave to bring in a
Bill for putting down the Association, he would take his
stand, and oppose so cumulous a mischief in every stage
of its progress—a mischief bottomed in injustice, and
pregnant with the greatest dangers. It would have the
effect of alienating the People of Ireland from looking
to Parliament for relief. Ireland never was so tranquil
as at this moment—never had the law such ascendancy
—never did it possess such irresistible force—the People
laboured under abuses, but recently they felt them not,
so rejoiced were they at experiencing the benefit of
well-executed laws. Let Ministers gloss it over as
they might; let them disguise it as they would,
still was this the doing of the Catholic Association.
The people of Irehaid did look to Parliament with con-
fidence; but when they found that their friends had de-
serted them for places, their confidence abated, and they
no longer trusted to Parliament, when their supporters
became Ministers ; when that House became deaf to
their complaints, which it did, as soon as. the fears of.
French invasion had subsided—then it was that the
Catholics of Ireland transferred their confidence from
th..l Legislature to the Association ; and why should
complain? because the Association haunted

'them, complaining of their injustice, for bad they
been timely just, the Association had never seen
the light. While Miniiters speak of rebellion, they
turn a deaf ear to its causes, and when language
is adopted approaching towards rebellion, they get
warm, and put it down by Act of Parliament.—
The Associations might be put down in eight-and-forty hours. It
was their own fault that they were there. Let it once be seen
that the Government and the Parliament were sincere in their de.
sign of yielding emancipation—let the conviction once take effect
that justice would be secured by the enforcement of equal and
effectuaklaws, and there would be an immediate end to Associations.
That they might be wise enough to yield in time to the reasonable
petition of six millions of their oppressed subjects, was rather his
eatnest prayer and ardent wish than his belief. He knew for cer-
tain that many Gentlemen who could not attend on account of their
various affairs, would, had they been present, have supported the
protest which he had judged it advisable to make, by their votes.
It was with a view to secure due weight and consideration for
their votes and opinions, and to prevent the Catholics from errone-
ously supposing that their cause was more feebly supported than
agreed with the fact—it was by these circumstances only that be
was prevented from taking the sense of the House upon the subject.
He requested pardon of the House for detaining them so long.
His conscience prompted hint to call upon them to adopt this as
'the fittest time for conciliation and redress, While, as to the policy
hitherto pursued, and for aught he knew yet to be continued, he
was determined to relieve his own mind from the guilty responsi-
bility of acquiescence—(Loud cheers.)
Lord F. L. GOWER explained. He was most anxious not to
be understoed, in regard to a remark upon Irish orators, as attempt-
ing to throw any sarcasm upon the Irish people in general.
Mr. BROUGH A M rejoiced at having given the Noble Lord-an
opportunity for disavowing anything like a national reflection ; as,
without that explanation from hii Lordship, those remarks might
have met with an interpretation which the kindness of his Lord-
ship's mind would have regretted.
The Hon. W. LAMB said, he participated in the prospect of
the general prosperity of the country, but he had never despaired
of the country's prosperity. His opinion on the subject of Catholic
emancipation was unchanged ; but he would vote for the Address,
as he expected it would be shewn that the Catholic Association
was injurious to the peace of Ireland. Undoubtedly other Asso-
ciations in this 'country collected money, but not for political pur-
poses; and the Catholic Association, under pretence of obtaining
redress of their own grievances, discussed the general affairs of the
country, which, he thought, made it a fit subject for legislative in-
terference.
Mr. Secretary CANNING then rose :—Sir, the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman who preceded the last speaker,
in traversing the several passages of his Majesty's speech,
did myself and my friends the credit of approving cer-
tain parts, though with no very gracious approbation,
while he condemned others with unsparing censute; he
has dwelt upon one topic at great length, namely, that
which alluded to the Catholic Association; and has, in
no very gracious way, drawn observations trom an-
other part which chiefly concerned himself. With re-
spect to the first part, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
has stated some opinions which I have always held, and
am ever prepared to support when they are brought
forward; but in my view, so far is the Association from
identifying itself with the Catholics of Ireland, that I
consider it as a scheme, a device, and an invention, for
sowing hatred in the minds of the Irish. I believe, that
the veriest enemy to peace, if he had sat down and
raised in Ireland a scheme for exasperating the spirit
of the people, could not have hit on means mote
certain of accomplishing this object than the 'in-
vention and conduct of the Catholic Association—
(Hear, hear). The first atgoment of the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman, which he has thought proper
to pursue at great length is, that if no step had been
taken by the Government with respect to the Associa-
tion, the mischief might have died away. ..Now„this,
was the line of conduct which Ministers took duringl
the last Session" of Parliament. Has the Honourable
Gentleman forgotten how they were goaded to put it
down, and when so goaded, had he forgotten the pro.
bability then felt in the majority of the House, that the
Association would die away of itself ; and has he for-
gotten, too, that in this view of the •affair, no call was
to be made to Parliament until the result of the expe-
riment was known? But if tlii, were the object of the
Honourable Gentleman, he has handled his argument
singularly enough. It was his business then to diminish
the power of the Association, to shew that it wan. a
harmless meeting of individuals, who did not represent
the sentiments of the Catholics of Ireland ; but in his
speech of to-night he has exaggerated almost beyond
exaggeration, and even beyond his own invention—
(Hear, hear). He tells us now, that the Catholic Asso.
ciation is the source of the peace and tranquillity which
the country now enjoyed—( Hear, hear, hear)—and
in
his zeal to obtain credit for his predictions and recom-
mendations in former times, he has forgotten the ex-
istence of Lord Wellesley's Administration ; he has
forgotten the talents and the merits which belonged to
that eminent man ; and would have us to believe that
the Administration does not distribute even-handed
justice between Catholic and Protestant; and that the
favotir of the Government, and the sunshine of the fa-
vour of the Crown have been derived from the Catholic
Association. Wo,ild to GOD, Sir, that the current of
administration hadbeen allowed to with nit being
intermingled with the waters of bitterness, by which it
had been inundated by the Catholic Association.
" Doris amara suam non intermisceat undam."
If the measures of that Government had been allowed
to go On uninterruptedly, it would have had the effect
of restoring.- in a very great degree, both peace and
concord to the country; but according to the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman, the Catholic Association inter-
fered, and performed that which, it would appear, the
Government were unable to effect. Huw was it that
this was accomplished ? They said to the general body
of Roman Catholics—We command you to be peace-
ful by the hate which you bear to your Orange bre-
thren. Good GOD ! is it not enough to stamp for ever
the character of the Association, who were capable of
writing such words, and who, when called upon, were
found ready to reiterate them? Is this the religious
principle on which Catholics act? I hope not. lam
sure it is not Christianity, and I trust rt is not the
creed of the Catholic body ; or, if it be, I have been
in a fatal error in advocating their cause—(Cheers).
In the name of this Catholic Body, then, I must take
leave to protest against the statement of the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman. I must protest also against
his assertion, that it would be wrong to impose a legal
restraint upon the actions of the Catholic Association,
or that an evil would be produced by such a restraint.
Does the Honourable and Learned Gentleman know
so little of this country, as to suppose that it is to be
intimidated by any threat which may be held otit agairst
it? I have already advocated, and shall continue to
Advocate, the cause of that people, but, in interfering
eith this Association, I feel, that so far from doles
them an evil, I should be of e.sential benefit in ridding
them. of that incubus by which they have been so long
oppressed, and which renders them unsightly
to the view, and was likely to turn against them
the face of every man who did not wish to be.
tired and brow-beaten into any set of opinions.
Honourable and Learned Gentleman has made
allusions to me, in the coarse of his speech, in a man—
ner so personal as not to be misunderstood. He

has asked, in so efttny wbrds, Why it was that a nis-
try, whom be was pleased to descri:,e as possessing
great power, did not at once carry certain measures
They might, he said, do so, or else give rip their
office. Before I go further, I must• deny the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman's premises; hut admitting them, for argument
sake, I would ask if he saw no difficulty, fur instance, in acknow-
ledging South American Independence? lie has said that a
Minister, with the benches behind him, and backed by the
People of Englatid, could have nothing to fear. Now, I will ask,
what would be the case of a Minister who was supported by
the benches behind bin], and by nothing else Hear, and a laugh.)
My answer to the Honourable and Learned Gentleman is this :
That supposing all his data to be true, how could I be expected to
propose any question, upon the carrying of which I put my office
pr my life upon the recommendation of those who had a collateral
interest in one of the events—(Bear! and a laugh)? I beg to as-
sure the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, that upon the sub-
ject of South American independence, as upon many others, he is
melt mistaken, and I will further assure him, that though his
Males ty's Ministers may be divided upon the atholic question—
a question upon which habit, connections, and honourable feelings
may create a difference of opinion—yet that they bring to the
discussion of every question in which the public interests and
welfare are concerned, the purest and most impartial judgments.
If I followed my Honourable and Learned Friend's advice, and re-
tire from the Cabinet, to give an opportunity for the formation of
such an Administration, he will have the satisfaction of ousting
me ; but be would not have the satisfaction of carrying the Catholic
Question—(Hear, hear). All I desire is, dila Honourable Mem-
bers will consider to what extent the sentence in the proposed Ad-
dress pledges the House. The King informs us, that there exist
Associations in Ireland which have adopted proceedings We-
i concileable with the spirit of the Constitution ; that they tend
to create alarm and to excite discontent is a matter of fact;
that they thereby impede the course of natural improvement
is also a matter of fact as little capable of being disputed.
His Majesty, therefore, recommends that the House will consider
the means of applying a remedy, and the House answers by this
Address that it will consider those means. What pledge i 3 given
by this reply, unless the House be prepared to say that the Catholic
Association, according to the character given of it by the Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman, possessing an authority in Ireland,
which supersedes all government, engrosses all allegiance, and
exercises all power, ought to exist—ought to sit beside the consti-
tuted authorities—nay, to tower above them, and dictate impe-
riously what measures ought or ought not to be pursued. At present
we see that it levies revenues, and holds the whole population
at its back; and this House is called upon, not to say that it
will adopt whatever means may be suggested by the King's
Government, but that it will itself consider the best means
of putting an end to this acknowledged and enormous evil.—
To other parts of the King's Speech, I can refer with more plea-
sere, and I apprehend that the I louse will feel on reluctance in ac-
cording in that part of the Address which echoes the announcement
from the Throne of the success of liberal commercial principles,
and of the recognition of the independence of the Independent
States of South America. The Honourable and Learned Member,
as the House is well aware, is by no means an unfrequent speaker
in this House, and when he does favour them, he is son generally
remarkable for being concise, and having, in common parlance, in
the course of his Parliamentary life, proposed and supported almost
every species and degree of innovation which can be practised to-
wards settled government, it is not very easy for Ministers to do
anything in the affair of South America, without borrowing, or
seeming to borrow, something from the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman. Their views might be shut up—by circumstances
which they must consult though he need not—as among ice
in a northern winter. In time the thawing proceeds, so that
they were able to come out. But break away in what direction
they would, whether they took to the left or right, it was all alike.
" Oho !" said the lion. and Learned Gentleman, " I was there
before you—you could nut have thought of that, now, if I had
not given you a hint." In the reign of Qiieen Anne there was a
sage and grave critic of the name of Dennis. who got it into his
head that he wrote all the good pins that were acted at that time.
At last a tragedy came forth with a most imposing storm of had
and thunder. At the first peal, " That's my thunder," said Den-
nis. (Loud laughter.) So, with the Hun. Gentleman, there was no
noise or stir for the good of mankind in any part of the globe but
he instantly claimed it for his thunder. One thing he had, how-
ever;•kindly thrown overboard, which was to he divided between
Government and his Hon. and Learned Friend the Member for
Knaresborougb, and that was the subject of South America. Now
I wish to hear from the Member for Knaresborough to what de-
gree he claims South America for his thunder. (Loud laughter).
Tbis step the Honourable and Learned Gentleman ( Mr. Brougham)
cannot, however, approve emit ely ; though it was right in itself, he
seems to apprehend that it would make Ministers insufferably vain,
if he applauded it; therefore Ile contends that it was particularly
injudicious in point of time. There we differ completely and ad-
visedly, for if I take pride to myself for anything upon this subject,
it is for the time chosen in acknowledging the independence. That
at some period or other, States that have completely separated
themselves from the mother country, must be admitted to
the rank of distinct Nations, there can be no doubt, and the whole
question is one of time and mode. There are two methods
of arriving at one end: by a reckless, heedless course, which may
attain the object sooner, but at the same time stir up consequences
better avoided ; or by a course more strictly guarded, in point of
principle, during which care is taken to give no just cause of offence
to any other Power (hear, hear!). The three States alluded to in
the Speech, are Buenos Ayres, Colombia, and Mexico, and I flatter
myself, I can satisfy the house, not only that there was no earlier
period at which the measures now in progress could have been fitly,
adopted, but that adopting them at any other periods, and carrying
them into execution by any other mode,would have been liable to the
most import-no objections. First, I will take it as a question of
time, and refer only to the internal condition of the States them-
selves. It is true, with regard to the State of Buenos Ayres, that
many years have elapsed since there was a Spanish soldier on the
soil. The first necessary condition of acknowledgment, that the
contest with the parent state should have ended, had, therefore, long
been fulfilled. fly Hon. and Learned Friend probably knows quite
as well as I do, that in common pathince,Buenos Ayres is supposed,
geographically, to include a vast extent of territory, but that it is in
fact, a very small State, of thirteen or fourteen-separate provinces,
nor yet connected by any federal union or government. Now, I
ask the Hon.and Learned Gentleman himself, whether it was not
necessary, in the first instance, to know whether that consolidation
had taken place? That, let me observe, is the single condition an-
nexed to the treaty with Buenos Ayres, and I have no doubt that
that consolidation will be found to exist; and if it does, the treaty
will be signed. Next, as to Columbia, the House is aware that it
was only in the year 1822, that the last Spanish force was sent out
of that country. The garrison of that important place, Puerto
Cabello, held out for Old Spain until two years ago ; therefore, for
two years only has Colombia been ripe for admission into the list
of independent Nations. But soon after the expulsion of the
Spaniards (I speak it not for the purpose of imputing blame),
Co!ombia thought right to risk her separate existence by sending
the greater part of her armed force and her chief executive
officer out of her territory, to engage in a distant war against
the Spanish cause in Peru. The question now is, whether the
successes in Peru, of which we have complete information, have
been such as to remove that danger. I think they have been,
and upon that opinion the British Government has acted.—
The case of Mexico is still clearer. Not nine months since, an ad-
venturer, who once wielded the sceptre of Mexico, went from this
country to repossess himself of his abdicated throne. Was that a
moment at which this country ought to have interfered to decide,
by recognition, the Government for Mexico (Hear, bear!)? The
failure of the attempt of that adventurer afforded the opportunity for
recognition, and the instant the failure was known, the decision of
the Cabinet was taken. e Therefore I say, that so far from the time
being ill chosen, so far from the measure being tardily adopted, it
was not physically or morally possible to adopt it at any other period
(Hear). I also justify the mode in which this measure had been car-
ded into effect. My Noble Friend wh" opened this debates. much
to his credit, and who has given such proofs of his power in self
vindication, as to induce us all to wish that he would do justice to
his talents in debate hereafter, has already touched very ably,
though lightly, upon this point. It is unnecessary, however, to
explain the course taken by Ministers in this respect also. There
are those who maintain that there is something mean and paltry in
negociating a treaty as the means of recogtddou ; but as far as I am
Informed, it has been the course in such transactions, in the most
approved cases, in the best times. The Ministers of the United
States (et: go back to what ii an example for this purpose, though
not for imitation In other Instances) were not admitted to the Court
of France until after the signature of the treaty, which was the mode
of recognition; the signature of that treaty was announced by France
he this country, as the act of recognition. But there was this
great difference. in the two cases: France not only recognized
„glre United Statis before the mother country had done done so,
but without giving her the choice of doing it first. With the
treaty of amity and commerce on that occasion, was mixed up a
treaty of &Mute, by which France made herself the enemy of Great
Britain. (Hear, hear.) Is it to be contended that this measure is
imperfect, because it has been unaccompanted by a war with Spain.
—(Hear.) What I endeavoured to accomplish was, to arrive