Star.
London, England, 1814-07-14 00:00:00

. .•
whose testimony. was of importance for the crimina-
tinn of those persons. were in danger of being threat-
ened and intimidated by evil disposed person t, and
that their testimony might be influenced' by fear of
their lives, in case it went to criminate tire tnersen
•
tried. What protection did the Bill afford against
this ? It might as well have bee.) caid in the
a that' whereas, certain abu.es ousted from persons
Arcing convicted by vial ; for the future they were te,
ko convicted without trial." It would have tben quite
es well to have s !id this 35 to hale -taken away the
trial by Joey. He did not deolet that there wits much
mischief ooing "en in irelarid, itrotthat'f-:r the pre-
ventien of co:ro:es it might he neteesery'm enact
lb it rieroo ns sheio.l be oblii2ed to lie at "one- by a
certain hour et the night.. With -respect, however,
to the state of Ireland, he had heard several instances
"hick convinced him that the conduct of the Is,lagis7
Woes- ought to 1:e looked after. ae well as that of the
von neo, td!c, ard n7ischievons. The Honourable
broth m :n then rel tied an unfair tl,at- had heppened
on the esoce of a Neble Lord in Iteland,• a friend of
h's. At Castleton, in Queen's Coinoye the annual
I ;i:- lateie tork pl ice, and it. was to be expected that
s:me- slight rpia:rel might take place, such 'as were
tomal on the occasion. Ahhote,!li nothing- unusual
took place on this occasion, the Magistrates most in-
ittlicirtisly called in military krcc, which was or-
! dered tot load with cartridge, and then to fix.thni-
bayonets. This done, they were made first to charge
on the populace with their bayonets, and then to fire.
The consequence was, that many were killed and
wounded. Ibis disgraceful affair sheaved how neces-
sary it was to attend to the c• nduct of the Magis-
trates, as well as of the lower orders. In point of
fact, no case had been made out to strew that the
Bill was necessary; The object ol,it was to do away
Grand and Petty Juries, and to deprive the people of
Ireland of those sacred institutions, by which alone
the law cam he properly administered. lie would
appeal to these who krew the situation el Ireland,
whether the effect r f the Bill would not be to exaspe-
ilte the people and to provoke further outrages ? He
trusted that though many Member; were absent who
were most interested is this -Bill, that Parliament
%could attend to its nature, and not allow it to be hut--
.
tied through the House at this late pet iod of the Ses-
sion. An instance had occurred to-day of the dispo-
• -eit:on of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, to
• bring on important measures without assigning due
reasons for them r by a Right Honourable Gentle-
man having, without any explanation, introduced a
Bill to extend the law of extent of England to the re-
venue of Ireland. • •
Mr. R. PEEL regretted that the HonoUrabie Gen-
tleman sboutd have-been put,to any diaiculty•in un-
derstanding the nature iit frOm any omission
in the printe.d copy: Any inciniVenience arising-from
these omissions, he 'conceived had been obviated by
the en:lee, wlish he had given at different times ee-
specting the flails, and partienlarly b what he had last
night said about its provisons:Butoill-inconvenienci
ieing nut of these emissions, would centaiitly lave.
been obvkted by Wet riog to the riot of 1807.. .The
Honourable Gil:Orman cotoplained.that the Bill wasi
a Mati rial alteration of the law of tke landetralsaidl
that it deprived his Majery's snbjects of their trivi•-•
loge of trial by Jtnv. . Tae Act provided, that incer-
t on ceases a stojc ant at law, to: a barris:tle. pee•
side at Sessions c f the Peace, and that these wou'of
competent tiy tine cimdentiiation or the. ecqiii•tal.nt
persons brought before them, and accused of thstor-
bin:: the peace of the country. ft remained 1T the.
House to decide whether the present situation of Ire-
land required the adoption of this-measure. Under
Circunistarce_s of urgency greater deviations
from the general law bad been judged nectosery by,
Parliament. In !Mid, his Nlajesty's army in Ireland
ce is ordered to take every seep which it might juilg4
necessary for the preservation of the peace ; and per-
sons belonging to the army were answerable for their
acts in pinsnance of this order, only before a Court
• Martial. A few, words now, its to.the possibility of
iojostice being committed under the provisions of this
Bid.. When the Act of 1807, (which was perfectly
similar to the Bill under discussion) was first intro-
duced, it gave power to the•special sessions to con.
deren persons to transportation ; hut, on the motion
of an Honourable Batonet, (Member for Water-
fad) a Serjvant-at-Law, or .a Barrister, was or-
dered to preside at these Sessions, and it was only
when then decision coincided with the opinion of
rate President, that the punishment was infbcted.—,
'When their opinions did not coincide, tile sentence
was suspended, and a representation made to a higher
authotity. He was surprised at some of the iihjec-1
teoes of the Hoi:ottrable Gentleman. He thought
the Honourable Gentleman did not know thc inten-
tion of the Act. He seemed to thud: that it was
merely an Act for the protection of witnesses, and'
asked What the protection. was? When be first
- brought in the Lid, he stated, that one of the grounds
for it was to afford protection to witnesses. The ob-
ject cf the sees to preserve peace in heland. If
the Honourable Gentleman had read die Act, he
"mild have seen that-it retptired no great weight of
vestin:ony to hull ct punishment tender the Act. The
Acres;as ;toothy oreservation of the Jurors. He
would orri-eal to those who knew the sitteitionof
stir:fitter it was not necessary to dispense with
the presence of jurors, and whether it wculd not at
resent endanger thein lives to appear in thejay-box ?
(Hear, hear.) Another provision 'cif the Act was,
hat puitiehment should immediately follow the of-
fence. it would be extremely inconvenient to be
obliefel to go thin u.;!1 tee ordinary forms of the law
while the country WaS in such an extraordinary state
t of d:sturbance. Tne toneaas of the Hoeourable
Gentleman applied well cornigh to a country in an
ordinary state ; Lot it could not be denier', 'that if it
was n"cesser y to the preset ealieri of tranquiltity tc
order people to :::•up :'ithin donr% after it certain
hour, it was eloally roessaty to follow wp this, b;
causing jos:ice 'to he immedia:ely voited npin those'
who distil: !nod theneace of the c It. was soith
pain thrtivhe was obliged to 5 ';'" a few e11.7d; on the
enbjet of a tint no-intoned by tie I lon. Gentiemen:
was stint that ;he military were ordered root Most
onjostifiably, and ordt red to fire upon tfol ; and
that in cons quencoa nornber tif person; w. t r IA
Ti been wed if the liononrahle
vied . Gentleman had ptetaced his pan-at-ye by a goes.
t": . _ . . .

mln had dtne this ; fur he hclieved that all that he.
(Mr. Homer) had stated ha this subject; was not
correct. An investigation was now- going on about
this matter. The result of this investigation he had
not yet received ; but he understood that the military
did not fire by order of the• Magistrates, but only
after their arms had been wrested from some of them
by the violence of the mob (Hear, hear.)—An an-
nual fair was hold at Castleton, where a meeting of
the. Pr otestants.and Catholics was to be expected, and
a serious tint was apprehended. Were the Mae's,
crates in this case to 'he- blamed for taking precau-
ti,ais to prevent mischief, and for collecting a force
which might be sittficient to quell• it in case it took
place—(Heir, hear );--It was highly necessary to
have had the military prepared 'on such .an occasion;.
It was with much reluctance that he said any thing'
at present respecting this affair, as he had not yet re-
ceived the report of the persons appointed to inquire
into the facts. But he had this day got a letter from
the Military Secretary of the Officer who conducted
the inquiry, in which it was stated.that the facts were.
moch_exaggerated, and also that the-Noble Lord on,
is hose estate it had taken place had transmitted, very
properly, a rept-estimation 'on the subject to Head-
quarters. He would desire the lionunrable*Gentte-
man not to judge of Ireland by this coutury--(•Nir.
Horner here made a motion of assent.]-11 ahealon.
Gentleman had expet ience in Irelane, he .was glad
oof it. The Act in 17 had produced the best effectS,
and therefore experience proved that the renewal of
its provisions, by the present Bid, war highly exfc-
dient—( Hear, hear.)
Sir SAMUEL: ROMILLY rose to state shortly
why be would vote against the Bill. The precedent
of the Act of 1807 had no weight with him, because
he then thought, and thought so still, that no such
Bill ought to be passed until a Committee was ap-
pointed to inquire whether it were necessary. At the
time the Act of 1807 was pmposed, he recollected
that a Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grattan)
had stated distinctly, that a French party then exis-
ted in Ireland. If this proved the necessity of the
Bill then, what could be said now, when we were at
peace with France ? The House could not be justi-
fied by any individual's rising and stating that so
and so was the situ ition of. I:eland, in depriving the
Irish male of their rights. The facts should he*
proved before a Committee ; and it ought also to be
proved drat an immediate enactment was necessary;
and also why the 11:11 had not been sooner brought
in—( Lord cries of Hear, hear ! from the Treasury Balch.)
It was not proper to desire those who wished to know
the previshns of th:s Bill to look into the Act of
-184. It was very truly said that the Bill dispensed
with evidence ; and w hen the. Right Hon. Gentle-
man talked of the odium to which Jurors were ex-1
posed, he should have recollected that the oditim was I
transferred be the Bill to the Magistrates.
Mr. ROCHFORT spoke strongly in faiour of
that Bill. The measure !red been loudly called Inr
'by the Nob lay and .Magiatracy of .the comity whith
he hachthe honour to represent, long before it had
been brought into the House. . .
Mr. W. FITZGERALD expressed his satisfac-
tion at-hearing the Bill approved by thelioncartfale
Gentleman who had just sat down. ,As to the Pa_
noilrAlc au.l Learned Gentman who had spoken
betorc hirai the House. would not. be stirPeised.at his
oppiaraon to the Brll, arlal oeulti.ereireecorecCieith
complncocy-(pis .111)040911,10 th? Act of .1807 - Fur
Isis own past, he anticipated that the course of -Patna:
cot would be the same nos,- as it has been then.. as.
the casses were quite similar.: The sin oion of Ireland
was a matter of perfect notorious. Buz whatavas the.
I-louse to t!,iiik of the • Honourable :Ilti Learned
Gentleman (SiraSarmiel Romilly) who took the tes-
timony of one Member de:ivered in that Hoase te-
specting a French party in Ireland, as suffitient
ground fer tire proceeding of 1807, and writ) now re-
jected the •concorring testimony of almost every
Member who spoke on the subject, saying that the
House was not authorized to pass the Bill unless
evidence was taken before a Committee—( Wear.)—
He would argue that the h 'endow of the Act of
1807 was not to put down a French party, but to put
an end to nightly outrages and urrders. It was ad-
mitted that the situation of Ireland in 1807 was very
nearly the same with that in which it now was: and
to state that the object of the act of 1807 had been
to put down a French party (speaking without im-
pertinence to the Honourable and Learned Gentle.
man) was most extraordinary. From what the House
had already heard, the necessity of the Bill was
proved. What had been said about odium bring
tr snsferred from Jurors to the Magistrates by the Bill,
was best answered by the Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Rochfort) who had stated that the Bill was
loudly called for long ago by the Nobility and Ma-
gistracy. When the lionour.able Gentleman (Mr.
Horeer) complained that tire Bill was introduced
without due notice, and that Irish Members were
taken by surprise, it was some satisfaction that not
one Irish.Ms niber had expressed any Lira surprise at
the introduction of the Bill as the Honourable
Gentleman. In fact-, they telt no surprise. They
knew it was mersaaiy. And there never was an
imp station lea, founded in fact, than to say they
ware taken try surprise. As to what had been said
about his having this day brought in an important
Bill without assigning any reason why it should he
passed. the Honourable Gentleman ought to recoll?ct,
that he'brought in the Bill he explained its na-
ture, :rid if any 14-nonrable Member had desired
him to assign reacoi.s for it, he would have done so.
As to what was said ahorit the Bill depriving the pen.
ple of the protection of Jaries, the Honourable and
L'arred Gentleman should know that the object of
the Bill was to rote( t the people of Ireland, and not
to t 'lie from toem any protection. Although the
H. namable Gentleman had constitnied himself the
advocate for Leland, no Irish Member had opposed
the 1141.

Mr: 119RNEP. rte to order. The Right
Gentleman had i.n right to make any distinction in
that House between the 'Members for Ireland and
those t,lr any part of the'kingelom.
Mr. FITZOERA I,D did n.t think that he teas
out of mkt. If 1;e had been disorderly, be would
have bet) loy the Chair. He concluded by
rn.iiiitainii;g the necebbity of passing the 13111 without
&lay. •

Mr.: BE RCROM RIE was against the The
Geittiern.m. opposite ca:letl ti inn the
on his own vile authority. Aol
I of tf.e silo:160r, tf Ireland, he dent:•)

, -
flan to him (Mr. PA:e11) whether :tyinvetty.itioo wit- i flight :o. C
itic Imo tlic of this cu.e?—(llcar, /,car.) soct
is would have bcn if the lioronrable C,:7ntl,'- to the flo:ofet.;