Star.
London, England, 1812-07-02 00:00:00

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6s absurd, and calculated merely to discourage 1 the wisdom and benevolence of the Legislature. He j LordGRENVILLE could not give a silent Tote on
tatholies from .feeling that agree of satisfaction I felt the force of the referenced to the previous question, ! the subject : he must express the gratification which
kb men of other per:nations felt in having an op- ; and althouglrit would, perhaps, be more congenial be felt at the manly manner in which the subject had
annuity of distinguishing themselves in those pro- . to his mind to put a direct negative upon the Noble i been brought forward; and if he had any thing to re-,
essions to which they might belong. It would be in 1 Marquis's motion; yet he should vote for the previous gret, it was that the Resolution did not go the whole
ain for them, so long as the present laws should ' question. -The Noble Lord then pralleeded to de- length of promising a repeal of the Catholic disabili-
ntinue in force, to strive to emulate the glorious ; dare, that he could not consent to give the unquali- ties. In this he was not to be understood as intend.-
chievements of a Marlborough, or a Wellington, fied enjoyment of all the privileges of the State, with- 1 ing to overlook the rights or securities of the Church
because, let their merit be ever so great, their pro- out undivided allegiance. It was essential that there • established by law, and to which he was devoted
spect of adequate reward was cut off. He was far should be no interference, no authority of the Pope, ; with zealous affection ; but the manner of bringing
from approving of some intemperate expressions in the concerns of Ireland e and really as matters were : forward the measure was trifling in comparison of
which .the warmth of the Catholics had compelled at present conducted, he did not know a country where the measure itself ; and he must rejoice at the result
them to use, but he thought that warmth ought to the See of Rome had more influence than in it. Consi- which was now likely to take place. He had been
be commended, because exerted in a cause interesting derable improvements were therefore necessary, both ' told by a Noble Lord, (we believe the Lord Chan-
t° every tine lover of his country. What some Noble in- the cultivation and civilization of the great body cellor) that the safety of the Constitution was involved
Lords considered to be criminal, he considered a of the Catholics of Ireland, where the influence of the , in their vote: but which of them seas now giving
Ixtoble trait in their character ; and considering them Pope was in consequence greater than among any , the best proof of attachment to the principles of the
to be worthy of participating in all the benefits of the other Catholics, before he could consent to the boon ' Revolution--pHe who excluded from it four mil-
Constitution, he should give his hearty assent to that was: now demanded. The Noble Marquis had lions of men, or he who 'would bring them in to share
the Motion. ' not said a word on the securities necessary to avert ' and strengthen it ? There were those who thought
Lord. MULGRAVE had formerly thought the such dangers; .and for these reasons he should sup- the question ought to be put off without danger, but
concessions to the Catholics unsafe ; but the dangers port the previous question. I let them not "lay that flattering unction to their soul."
rot one period were not the dangers of another ; and j The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, that far It grew dangerous as it was delayed. He lamented
he quite agreed, that it would be politic next Session advanced as the Session of Parliament was, and it had not been settled finally twelve years ago. Since
to consider whether the conduct of the Catholics was the business in which it was engaged of the utmost that time discontents must have increased, and it was
such as rendered it safe to entrust them with political importance, he was ready for one to vote that the not strange that mistrust should now be found when
power ; and when the House came to that conside- claims of the Catholics should be taken into immediate we made our offers of friendship. The confidence of
ration, he should be for granting the utmost conces- consideration. Nothing could serve so successfully the Catholics could not grow at once—not as it
&ions, not successively, but with a view of at once I to quiet and compose the minds of the people at such , would, had their desire been granted twelve years ago,
cldsing tha question to the satisfaction of the country. a juncture as the present,. He was not prepared as or five, or three, or two, or even more than all when
Earl CAMDEN expl :hied the reasons of his votes it had been apprehended, that the Noble Marquis the restrictions were taken off. It was most expedient
on this question since MI ; and said, that if the was to make unlimited concessions, but he would vote not to lose a moment. The Catholics could not be
present motion had not been made, he should have for the model), under an impteision of the practicalii, expected to wait submissively and confidingly for the
felt it his duty, early in the next Session, to have Ety cf the measure. I six or nine months that might pass till the meeting
proposed a similar consideration. He should noenow The DUKE of CUMBERLAND shortly obser. of Parliament' without some pledge, especially
object to vote with the Noble Marquis, provided he ved, that he was Identify to every measure of con- under such a Ministry, when the Chaacellor, the
should not thereby pledge himself absolutely against ciliation ; and but for the late resolutions of the Ca. , Keeper of the King's conscience, declared, that
any intervenient circumstances which might arise. tholic holy, which were of a nature he could not ob. Ito comply with their wishes would be to sacrifice
The Duke of NORFOLK laid it down, that every serve without alarm, he should net have felt much I the constitution ; and when the First Minister could
oßritish subject had a right to worship. GOD as he disinclination to the present motion. I not allow of their becoming sharers in the Cone he-
pleased, he giving.seetnity for the safety of the estate- The Earl of LIVERPOOL. slid his whole diffe- tion, except by giving up their religion, could they
1 lished religir n. Any laws in violation of this eight, rence of opinion from his Noble Friend (the Marquis jbe satisfied without some pledge ? At al events, if
! the subject had. a right to have repealed—for there 'Wellesley) resolved itself into the question of the ' Parliament gave its voice for them, late events
' indisputably were laws, to the repeal of which the practicability of concession, consistent with the secu- shewed that they were not to expect great resistance in
subject had a right. He was gratified at seeing this city of our establishments in Church and State ; and another quarter. The Noble and Learned Lord ( Re-
first step towei d s Roman Catholic emancipation ; in this view he should feel it unworthy of his own elm- desdale) who had objected so much in detail, had oely
and hoped that the measure would folloW the exam- racterif be acceded to the motion, unless he saw his to sendiis objections to be discussed in the Coninnt-
.ple of the Otelers in Council, which were retained way clearly, and the extent of the concessions that tee. It was impossible not to express an additional
with an obstinacy that had nearly driven our manu- would be required. He felt that he should be act- satisfaction at the proof which was now furnished
facturers into despair. ing an unmanly, part were he to meet the question that the measure must be eventually successful :
/ Earl MOIRA said, that a fair and complete consi- on little shifts and temporary exiiedients, instead of and yet this was the one for which he and other
i deration of the great and paramount Catholic Ques. the broad principles of policy arid general expe-. Members of that House had been charged with little
tion, was all that had been requested by the motion, dience. There was this distinction, however, that short of treason against the King and Constitution,
so eloquently introduced by the Wet Noble Marquis; he did not oppose concession on considerations —Those very men who rose to rover on the charge
and he really could not conceive that resistance could, purely religious, connected with the doctrines of the now admitted, that they had all along thought with
' arise, from any reasonable quarter, against it. Had Catholic faith; but with regard to. the Oath of Su. him, and yet they had calumniated him arid his
they not every inducement, from the nature of the premac', he thought it a constitutional obstacle.— Noble friend (Earl Grey). Hereavas a new proof
claims themselves, as eel' as the unfortunate concur- The State, as nlw constituted, was essentially Pro- also of the good of free discussion. If the question
I rent circumstances of the times, to come to a favou- manly, not for the exclusive benefit of any one re- could have yielded to the votes of great majorities in
table conclusion upon them? Were they not inform- ligious party, but for the protection of all sects, and that House, to other influence, or to a popular cry,
ed, by his Majesty's Ministers in that and another to give the greatest security to the liberty of the %%hole. it must have perished ; but it was supported, and it
1 Houseof-Parbament, that they were in possession of He knew that the power of the Pope was not greater was now triumj hant. This was the spirit of the
sealed parkets of information, concerning disturbances now, but probablf much less than it had been at for. Constitution, and it was into this Constitution that
, not so remote from London is Ireland, which they mer periods. There was this consideration, however, four millions of men were about to be admitted by
were afraid to make public, and therefore voted them that the-pesitiolt in which France now stood, with the vote of this night.
to the consideration of a Secret Committee ? Add regard to the Pope, might make the power which he Lord STANHOPE rose, he said, to a point of
did they immediately proceed to examine into the possessed as dangerous to this country as in former Order, namely, to clear the House, not of strangers,
disturbances excited in other parts, and refrained from times. Independence on foreign influence was the ' nor of Catholics, but cf all the English Bishops, for
indulging themselves in making any cooceseions to- , greatest blessing which the countryscould enjoy. With he had found an Act of Parliament, still in force,
wards the Catholics 1 ' The ' violence indeed of the these views, and not seein,e. his way in agreeing to and never repealed, which went to exclude all Popish
Resolutions lately emanating Bons the Meeting at the vote, it was his maxim that a stand should be recreants, namely, my Lords the Bishops—(a loud
'Dublin,. had been particularly descanted upon with made in find& ; for to agree to consider was in effect laugh o—and he only wished to catch them its their
rsome severity, but were ells:ye to contemplate only the to concede. His main objection was to the pledging own trap. The • Act of Parliament he alluded to
warm proceedings cf a few individuals, and according of the House to an abstract proposition(which was was the 30th of Charles 11. which provided, that any
.as they acted, proceed towards the whole body. They not to be taken into immediate consideration, and Prelates Peers of the Realm, who presented them-
Iwere to examine into' he justice and policy of the whkh specified none of the conditions with which selves before the King his Majesty, or any of his sue-
measure, without deigning to remember the eneuel in- con-ession was :o he accomnanied. . cessors, previous to their taking the Oath, and sub-
temperances of a few individuals, which in his eV- Lord DONOUGHMOIiE said, he had, as it was scribing the Declaration therein mentioned, should
vier, ought,rather to be an.additional ind9cement to well known to many of their Lordships, lived in I be declared Popish recreant convict: I instead of which,
concede the claims of the whole b,Ay with alacerity. habits of strict friendiaip with the great body cf the the Bishops aleeays presented themselves at Court
,The chief objects of the present Motion, was simply Catholics; he had always beta the strenuous advo. first. The Noble Lord was proceeding, when
a pledge of' their determination to give to the Catt.o- Cate of their cause ; nod he did not 4 n the present The LORD CHANCELLOR moved the stand-
lic Claims an ample and mature deliberation during occasion feel himself less inclined to be so than here. ing Order for the exclusion of strangers, and the
i tlie. ensuing Session for the laudable purpose 9f quiet- tofere. He complimented the manly manner in which House was cleared.
ling iu the interim the public mind. _ the-Noble E-1-1 who spoke lest had met the question; . A division then took place, when there appeared—
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Viscount SIDMOUTH, although he :tad so fie-.
'quently r,iven Lia opinion nit thii subject, c( old not
a bst,tin Irom svying a few words on the present occa-
sion. If he had .been 'one who (Timid the ra-:tion of
he 31st January last, he also felt it incumbent upon
iiin to appOse the present. He was then.of opinion,
that the temper a the Catholics of Ireland rendered
t unworthy of the dignity of the H,,use to grant their
lalms ; and no concession ought to be made at the
xpence of thehonnur and dignity of the Hous.t.
ail objection was taken to them then, that they
ad arrayed themstives in the armour of Right; and
had assumed a menacing appearance. They might
since have kept themselves within the paleof the law ;
but their intention and mind was still the same. He
npoosed•the motion, as promising a final and sat s•
factory adjustment of their claims, indicating the ut-
most extent of unlimited concession ; and unless he

*anikconlessed lie al says considered, that considera.
tion involved concession ; and he would strenuously
deprecate the idea of deluding the Catholics by af.
fording them the one, and withholding from them
the other. He adverted to the resolutions'of she late
Aggregate Meeting in Dublin, and was sorry to find
they had made so strong an impression as they
seemed to have done on the minds of some Noble
Lords; but there would always occur in large pub-
lic bodies moments cf irritation, and it was not won-
derful theCatholicoshouldieel a if.alousy when they
found re-.appointed to their situations the present
Ministers, who had on all occasions sbewn themselves
so decidedly as their detirrnined foes. He was well
awate of thc value and importance of conciliation;
and as he thought this me.ilure would very materi:
ally tend to it; he would give it his hearty support.
Lord MELVILLE hoped the-House would not

For Maiquis Wellesley's motion, Conteas 71—
Proxies 51-125.—Against the motion, Non-con-
tents 74—Proxies 52-126—Majority against the
motion Ons.—The House then adjourned at FOUR
o'cLocs this morning.
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thought time the degree of concession which he should only come to a consideration of the question, hut with
'be likely to grant them was such as would be antis- a desire that such consicf.eation might lead to the In.
factory to them, he held it most fair and honest, neficial results which the hiends to the motion flat-
prith his 'limited views upon this subject, to oppose tered themselves they might reasonably expect from
Wm =tient at once, and in the bud. He might its 'being carried in their favour. I-k hoped the
t laink that the Irish Act of 1793 ought to be operative House would feel it their duty to pursue their own
'a every part of the kingdom; and that it would be steady course, and not to be led away by any intern-
desirable to connect the Roman • Catholic Priest with i perate proceedings which might have taken place
the Government ; but before the House could vote among rash unadvised men among 'the Catholics.—.
for the present motion, they ought to be determined i He should support the motion.
'O3 concede the claims in their great and unlimited j The Earl of DA RNLI spoke in favour of the
(*stem, (hear./ He was sure the argument of the Resolution proposed by the Noble Marquis. His,
P Noble Marquis went thus fir, and contained no single., Lordship entered into a statement respecting the Ca-
word of condition. The motion itself, indeed, spoke 'holies and Protestants in Ireland. The Catholics
much of restriction ; but there was little of this in bad increased considerably of late, and the Protes-
the argument, by which it would appear (according tants had decreased. The Catholics formerly consis-
t* a certain phrase) that the reciprocity was all on ted of 32,000 persons ; of late they had increased to
one side. (A laugh.) He was not insensible to the 47,000. The Protestants at first were 17,000 ; now
condition cif the Irish Catholics ; but the mass of the they were only 10,000. The latter statement was
population of Ireland had always been fore 9 .ten ; and• confined to a particular district. The Noble Earl ob-
the Hoeseheard only of 8,4, or 5,000,000, who were served, that he could have furnished the House with
to be conciliated and restored to tranquillity, and who useful information on the subject, but the lateness of
claimed the rights and privileges of Protestants. The' the hour prevented him. He 'had derived great ad-
exaggeration of these numbers, great as it was, was vantage respecting the affairs of Ireland, from Mr. •
Itothing when compared with the exaggeration of Wakefield's valuable Work, which every person iu the
their condition. The House looked too much at the country ought to read.
summit, and too little at the base. The condition of Lord REDESDALE. said, be had formerly ob-
the Irish was, doubtless, improving, and the cultiva7 jected to a committee, and had now a greater ob-
tion .of the country was certainly in progress ; but Jection to support the present motion, because he was
Noble Lords deceived themselves if they thought the convinced the claims of the Catholics ought not to '
discontents in Ireland were solely attributable to the be allowed, ualess very strong securities were given. I
C4t4olic restrictions. The Emancipation of the Irish Absolute concession, without restrictions he never
from ignorance and pmferty, was the first object of could agree to.. He should vote agaiist the motion.
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