Star.
London, England, 1824-02-28 00:00:00

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berry cases on Monday next. •
}Whop of EXETER presented 4retttloallxina the Inha.
bitalits,of Borough of Great.Torringtors„.liDit;tonshite.
who
prared for a Repeal of the Dull' on Chals carried tilastwise.—
Read and ordered to he mien the table of the House.
Visecinnt HEREFOR D presented a Petition from the Inhabit-
ants of Dereham and its vieinity, in NtSrfolk, praying for an ame-
lioration of Colonial .Slavery ; which Petition was Also read, but
withdrayro,on account of sonic informalities in it.
Wielder and others, from the •Houte ofAConuatons,'
brought up the Town Of Leeds Vieavial Tithes and Easter Offer-
ings. Abolition MlL•vrhtch was afterwards read a .first time.
The Earl of LI vrrtrool. said 'that he held in Isis hand cer-
tain Returns made pursuant to'clie moticinof a Noble Earl („Darts,
101) not .at preseot in Isis lace. They related to the operation of
the Tillie composition Alt in Irl. rid, AIM were Mostly now be-
fore theother House. Ile should, therefore, lay them uptiti their
Lordsleilis tablet. but .be must observe while .so doiog, that they
were most 'eornpisi; and So 'defeetive in somelustances that the
PubDit dazrtte was.the sole :tin-barite on which they rested: .
LAN:WOWN'raid that pe•tbaps it 'might 4,•:
fur ebe conyeuteuee of Ruble :Lords to kie apprised that the Noble
. alluded toTpainley),,,wlio'happeiied toloe.in the country, did
not intendto bring foie:full:the ;notion of which notice had beets
given for Tuesday swat. lle understood the meantime that it
syga the intention of his Noble Friend A. attend in his place on
Tuesday, when he would Oltinother datfor bringing on his mo-
tion with regard to Irelabd.
The Transferof. Aids Dill, the Exchequer Bins (15 millions) Bill,
the Reciprocils' of Ditties Bill, and the Ireland Law Courts Regu-
lation Rill, were respectively read a second time.
'The' Iliehop of EXETER moved that their Lordships should re-
ceive ihe Report of the.NeW-MartiageAtt Amendment lidlkwhich
was agreed to.—Adjourned till Monday.'
HOUSE GE COMMONS.
Mr. IL 'MARTIN said he held in his hand a Petition very nu-
meroufilrand 'respectably signed' by the inhabitants of Liverpool,
which stated that the Petitioners Isad•with great pleasure seen the
good effects of an Act, passed in the last Session of ParliaMent,
which bad
,for its object the prevention of cruelty to certain ani-
mals therein specified, such as horses, &c. They now prayed that ,
the house would be pleased to extend its protection to dogs and
others of the brute creation not included in that Act. They prayed
especially that the cruel practices of hull and, bear-baiting might be
abolished by law, the consequences of which the Petitioners depre-
cteil; not only as produCtive of the most cruel treatment to the in-
offensive animals tbernielites; but'as leatiiilg to the most shameful
conduct on the part of the congregated ruffians who patronised such
sports. The Honourable Member observed, that although the
House had ryfqsed so sanction the abolition of bear-baittn, be was
happy to say that bull-baiting was abolished by laW. He did not
say this 'upon his sown authority, as he had that of the Attorney-
General, the Common Serjeant, and other legal characters to bear
him out. He, therefore, trusted that those who bad been in the
habit of encouraging such sports heretpfore, would refrain from
doing so in future, if they did not wiih to pay the penalty attached to
the offence. The Petition was then read and ordered to be printed.
Mr. Alderman WOOD, presented a Petition from Coombe,-
market, in 'Devonshire, praying for a reduction of tfie•Duty on Coals.,
The I lonoutable Member observed, that the. case of tine Peti-
tioners was peculiarly hard, as they were obliged after landing their
coats to wait for the arrival of the Custom-house Officers, in conse-
quence of which they experienced considerable inconvenkerice.—
Ile. hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer w.ooldetake.this sub!.
j:ct into
,his consideration. lie was sure that riaglk lion. Gen-,
tl:man would do all he could to relieve the distresses of the peo-
ple ; and although the Country Gentlemen and oilier". complainied
that hg.had nut as yet aufficiently attended to their claims, he (Al-
derman Wood) was sure that he. had only put off the futther, retitle•
-
tion of taxation so the next Session,,when both the merchants and
the aviculturists would row together against the CbAnAellor of the
Exchequer, and hei .be trusted, irresistible. With respect to the
Duty on Coals, however, the.people of • London had untels to tom-.
plain, of. them (the Country Gentlemen), as where the latter-had.
only to pay 15d. the former mustiiity was•eislered
to lie on the table. . .
Mr. H. SUMNER, in presentiag a Petition from Croydon, In •
Surrey, against the duty on Coals, said that 'be could not support
the er..".r of the Petition, as lie thought the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer hadtione all that could be done ; and such .relfef, as t;lie
Petitioners prayed for, a total repeal of the tax, it was impossible
for the Right Honourable Gentleman in the circuinStapeeefif the
rouqtry to afford.—Ordered to lie on the table. . . ,
Lord J. FITZROY presented a Petition from Bury; St:Ed..
niurid'a praying fur the abolition eif .I.Slavery,:hi the West W—
ks,
Ordered to lie on the table. . ••• s;-• • • •
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Sir W. IN GLEBY presented a Petition'
on Alto vprar•
'•
O
ing for a more speedy mode of recovering Ssnall.ebu.---iOrdered.
to lie on the table..
Mr: li EAT HCOTt presented a Petitioti.from thelieensfil
'Victuallers of Boston, in Lincolnshire; against the duty on tome
Licenseserdered to lie on the table. . • • •
S. RICE moved for leave to bring in a Bill to enable asCous-
to'iiiack.Mlnes in Ireland.—f-eaiie *ranted. .
.Sir IT, PA (WELL postpened his motion relative to the'Com-
nw'relaflntcreinirse lietwe.m Great Ilritain and Ireland to %does-
daic•March 4. •
CA.SEOYC,ZAItLES IrLiNt.
Mr. DENNI g rose to cali.the attention of the House
to a Petition which he considered tif the. highest . •
im-
portance, as far as the du= adinittfstratlon of justice and
the conduct of the Magistracy of tliel:ciiiintry were cob-.
tented. It was particularly deserving of attention: in
the latter pOint-of view,- since Magistrates had lately
as'umed to thediselvei-verylifgh powers, which in his
Jr •
(:tir. Denman's) ophAnn,cotali not bitoo speedily de-
fined. The facts :to which he should shortly calk.she
attention of the House velatedto the conduet of ono of
the .Magistrates of Sta-ffOid, who was alio_a Mernber Of
that. House, in the trial of
,4 person of the name ofF.lint;
lie (Mr. Denman) had communicated to that Honour-
able Member his intention, of presenting this Petition;
and it was with feelings of reset he felt himself bound
to say, that if th 4 stateme'n(Oinde by' the petitioner was
found to be true,. the conduct of that Honourable and
Learned Member was very far from being reconcile-
able either with the strict'principles of justice, or with
the high Character 4. had hitherto maintained. The
Petition was of great length, and as,it embraced .a nar-
rative of circurristances,which occupied -a considerable
period of time; he•dicl not see how_it could well be
compressed. With the reflections by which this narra-
tive was accompanied hel(Mr.D;nman) had nothing to
do. • They were the language of. a man- who was, or
conceived himstlf•to be, injured, and -might therefore
be excused fog' a lithe ;iat nitt: Heiiotilsl how .proceed
to lay. hefore the.Hot;e_.the. facts of tfielase a; detailed
in the Petition. It was a matter of•notoriety that • the
neighbourhood-of Stafford had !Ong bee.h thrown into a,
.
state-of agstation,lh—consequence. of The claim ola per,
son of the name of-Cooke to ce.rtainproperty in the peas-.
session of Sir George J,eriiingliarn.,- One of the.tenants
cf Sir George bad Len ;nu omit ('f posses-
slim by a manof the iitnie of Wilks, who claimed under
Mr. Cooke, and Teilk's—w:ts-lst&iquentlyoustecl of pos-
sessitlii himself by thoforntil occupier. The manner in,
which this person obtatined possession was not 'only •ex..,
trecuely violent, butiiirtristMr. Denman s) opinion, il••:!
legs as 'he atteir Lien' the:Magis,
trate* were' auk 4utlsorksiesl- to. issue, The .Act upon•
vthicbthey professedlo.be guided in restoring the pos,
session usurped by Wilk, warrthat of the late King,
commonly called the Wilful Trespass. Act. This Act,
although it gave very high powers to Magistrates and.
Constables, empowering them even in certain cases to
arrest, did not, in his opinion, apply to cases of disputed

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. He wat
.stite the •Hoeoutalele Membee,bst
that Act was alit in 'Ad set intend it to ape
co-inch.elsers, an ins supede tke pu4inark.tri.
s9~iich it unveil y And orfpim4y.refereed. Th •
rtio-toolcasosseesion in this inatakelaroke ope
loors, and took off the locks which -had been af-
them; and jot content with this, he took into
-Willis-and amber person- by wleam avas'ie
and treated them with every species of indig-
..ser thesecireu mai/aces, when the authority under.
.1 this violent act was committed was in itself so
sestioaable, and when the natural irritation of persons
situated as Whirs and his friend were is considered, was
it not to be expected that any resistance which they
might offer would be considered as in some degree
palliating the circumstancespf the case, and not made
a reason for vindictive punishment? It was true that a
huge body of men had assembled to oppose the execu-
tion of the decree, four or five huns'ved persons, per-
haps; but it was equally true, that although they might
have used stir:mg expressions, they inflicted bodily in-
jury.upon nobod,y, and were not guilty of any act which,
except in the legal' sense, could 7be called an assault.—
.This transaction took place in the neighbourhood of
Stafford, where the Petitioner wars residing at the time.
He thought it necessary to call the audition of the
House te the situation in life of the Petitibner. He was
the legal adviser of Wiiks, an articled clerk to his bro-
ther, who wits an admitted attorney, and with whom
he had served an apprenticeship of six years. He was
at the inn in Stafford, When he heard that his client was
arrested, and with the feelings natural to a man so cir..
cumptanced, he hastened immediately to the scene of
action, with a view of giving his professional advice.
Upon his arrival hesew Mr. Wilks in the'hands of the
constables, by whonehe wes not very courteously treated.
Flint asked them for their authority, but they refused to
produce it. It was in their pocket, they said. Re, re-
peated his demand a second and a third time, and upon
the fourth application they produced it. It was a sim-
ple wai rant to the constables to keep the peace. Flint
upon this, said that they' were not warranted in taking
his client to prison, and added some words of encourage-
ment, such as any professional adviser would naturally
use'to his client. This appeared to be all that Flint had
'done. 'This- was the_ extent of his offence, if offence it
could be called.- If resistance was unlawful, the case
was at least of a questionable nature, and those who
had offered this resistance were guilty of no riotous act.
beyond mere words, and the- ordioary conduct rif a
multitude congregated together in consequence of some
supposed or real grievance. But admitting that the
multitude had been guilty of riotous or disorderly con-
duct, that of Flint was quite the contrary. He asked
the constable for his authority, and when produced he
took no other step than to deny its validity, and afford
that encouragement to his client which every proles-•
sional adviser 'would have done under similar circum'.
stances. The Petitioner was brought to trial' at the
Quarter Sessions of Stafford, and although he IMr.
Denman) would not go the length of saying, • that the
Chairman ought to have directed .the Jury to acquit'
the prisoner, he still would say that the circumstances
were such as to have prevented him from summing up,
according to the legal phrase, against the prisoner.—
The Learned Chait man told. the Jury that the case was
made out, and not distinguishing; as any euthbrity on
the Bench would have done, between the conduct of the
multitude who were upon the spot and did make resist-
ance, although in -no_ aggraveted7Manner, and without
doing any bodily harire and that of a young man who
'teas totally unconnected with the riot, and went down
prompted only by anxiety for_his client, be directed them
m bring in the same verdict against all. The Jury did ea,
iind without turning-round in the box, found all the pri-
soners guilty. The question dien was as to the sentence,
and fresh evidence was adduced in mitigation of punish-
ment; by which it appeared that Flint was at the inn
when the • riot :took place, a fact which the Learned
Chairman himself afterwards admitted. It Was asserted
that the responsibility of the sentence did.not rest alto-
gether on theLearnedChairinan, as he. had 'consulted
his brother Magistrates.. He might have done so sub-
sequently, but not at the time the, sentence was- passed.
Their opinion, therefore,. although it might afterwards
,agree with that of the Learned Chairman,. could not
well be said to have affected a sentence pronounced be-
fore they were consulted. The Learned Chairman and
one-of his fellow Magistrates—a Reverend Magistrate—
jointly pronounced sentence on the Petitioner, and in-
so doing they stewed no respect'Of persons, as they core.
demned an Attorney who. had been accustomed to
move in a reputable-sphere-of life,-whose only fault were
that he was at hand to remonstrate against an injustice
"done to his client—to the same punishment with persons.
of a very inferiot class convicted of a riot—they con-
demned this individual to three months' imprisonment=
and to hard' labour-..(Near, ham)—they seat a person.
Who had been accustomed to far different .society, who
bad received tjte education and profession of a Gentle-
man, to the tread-mill—to herd with- felons and male-
factors of the vilest desctiption,-(Hear, hear). This was
a statement, which,: he could not help saying, ,_Quitilte if
proved, to draw-down the inclignatiou of that Hoeserree
The Petition entered a good • deal into the law of the
case. With this he (Mr. Denman) would' not trouble-
the House. There was one observation in it to, which
he would; however,-allude, as it proved that the con-
duct of the Magistrates was illegal in sentencing the
prisoner to hard labour. The Chairman, in his sum-
ming up, said that the prisoner had been guilty of at-
tending an unlawful assembly. Now, the lew did not
say that hard:labeur wae-to be the punishment of such
an offence. The Petitioner therefore contended that the.
Chairman was not warranted in inflicting that. punish-
ment on him. The punishment was, however, inflicted,
and the Petitioner was made to take his turn-at the mill
like the rest. -In a short time, however, his health gave
way, and he procured a certificate from the surgeon of
the jail,deelating that he was not a fit object for labour.l
The punishment•was then remitted; bur. was the pri-
soner on that account indebted to the Visiting Magie-
traces, or did they relax their severity till necessity corn-
diem ? There was another statement in the Pe-
tition, to which he (Mr. Denman) thought it necessary'
to call the attention of the House. The Petitionerlad
prepared a Memorial to the Right Honotu able Secre-
tory for the. Home Department, -detailing tbe facts of
his case, and praying that it might be taken into consi-
4exation. • This Memorial was, however, 'withheld by
the jailer, who, atter some time, gave it to the Honour-
' able Member for Stafford, by whoM it'. was trans•
reined to the Right Honourable Secretary, but net
until 'a considerable time had elapsed. He-(Mr. Dour
'man) confessed that it struck- him with some surpsitel
that when this Petition was at last presented, the'
"tight Honourable Secretary had not theught proper
to have the case of this individual inquired into----7
'Allowing that nu distinction ought to he made. betweett

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ilst4 jiWejliers, he was sure that if4llii individual
I,se3 icI•ISOM promptly inquired int% tlieresult would
re-been his-immediate liberation. Tr return to bis
Oesturteht in prison; he was, as before remarked,'couS
1.114 to hard labour, and, not sittisfied.with this, he wai
made to wear the jail dross, thus identifying him with
the malefactors and felons with :whom he was forced

'to Agsvcia te. •'"lfe•oughtlhomerer- tu ii,oy.• ~.,-.
CUMStanCei of the case having become a subject of con-
versation in Staff3rd, theleartied.Chairman thogskii
proper to take the opinion of" his brother Magistratesies
to the :legality of what • he•ltad - done—(lttarr): • They
met accordingly, and 'came to•a tesolation .not to make,
any inquiry into the case, and in this respect he would say
that they had been.imitated by that -House,,which- the
other night, when a Noble Friend of his-(Lord Nugent)
had brought forward a .motion for inquiring. into-the
conduct of .Mittisters relative to the war in Spain,
wisely came to a resolution not only not to institute.
any inquiry, but to, pass a vote of thanks to those very
Ministers whose Constacs. they were called upon to in-
vestigate—(l-leer, nil-4.0 laugh). This was the course
which the. Stafford Magistrates pursued. They met for'
the ostensible• purpose of investigating the legality of an
act of a brother Magistrate: without inquiry or consi-
deration; they proceed to pass a panegyric upon their
Learned Chairman, and throw their shield over a Gen-
tleman, who on otdinary occasions he • was willing to
allow stood in need or nb such prOtectinn. He would
now notice an-objection which-he knew would be made
to the reception of.Aliit,Petition4 An application had it
appeared been nrade.upon the part of the Honourable
and Learned Meriaber fora criminal information against.
a London Newspaperl....and it had been said that the
petitioner ought to wan until the result of the inquiry in
the Court of. King:is-13=6. was known. He (Mr. Den-
man) however:thought-differently. He contended that
.he had a right to pram his Petition and deMaad :l.1)
investigation into his*Casi whenever he had an opportu-
nity. If the petitioner were compelled to wait the re-
sult of this application the period of redress would be
ley distant, and he should in fact be obliged to with-.
hop iis Petition until the next Session of Parliament.
Tlie. ourable and 'Learnicl Member bat it is true
applied t a rule, but having made his application- at
the end of the Term had not got it made absolute,
which he would have done had he applied earlier. Thus
the trial could not take place before the next Summer
Assizes, until which time the petitioner would have to
wait, before he could obtain redress. This was the peti-
tionees reason for not waiting the result of that trial.
Besides the case Of the Petitioner was very different fiom
that of the Newspaper Editor. The Newspaper para-
graph might have been a gross and infamous libel, and
the petitioner be not at all affected by it. Besides the
Honourable Member's case was already before the public.
Every circumstance that was favourable to him was of
course set forth in his affidavit, and why not hear the
petitioner's casein his turn? He (Mi-. Denman) had now
done his duty, and allowing that resistance had been
offered to authority, which authority was at least but
questionable, yet ifi as the Petitioner asserted, he had
no partinit, even admitting that he had taken the part
of his client top warmly, he was sure that under all the
eircu.mstangeftliellouse would Agr e e with him that such
a punishment as-the tread-mill was too severe for such an
offence. The Hon. Member then proceeded to read some
extracts from the Petition, in which the petitioner ex-
pressed his hope that the House would proiride 'against
so gross an abuse of magisterial authority as that of
-which he complained, and which-could not be so effectu-
ally redressed through any other channel. The Ho-
nourable and Learned Member proceeded to state, that
he should not act fairly if he did not mention the Cho-
Oyes by which the petitioner.asserted the Learned Chair-
Man was actuated in pursuing that conduct to-via Hahn
of whichhe complained. The motive which the Petitioner
assigneci,then, arose out of altercations which he stated to
.have frequently taken place between his elder.hrother,
AbrahaurElint, and the Honourable and Learned Mem-
her,. not irr his•capacity.of Chairman, but -while offi-1
timing in another capacity, that 'of a CommisliOner :Of I
Bankrupts. He (Mll.ri Denman) did not by any meant
assume that any imputation attached to the I- knowable
Member on account, of these • allegations : on the cqn-
trary, it was the misfortuniofpersons Vested 'With au-
thority to be fiequetitly the object of ,undeserved:odiarn,
and karma-very hard, eadei such Circiamstane' esito-giivi•
satisfaction to all parties---(flear, hear).—The petitioner
further stated another cause of dispute between the pe-
pitiossee's- brother and the 'Learned Chairman.. Mir:
',Ahrahaerf Mt, ablaut three years ago, harl' been .con-
!Acted of an assault upon a woman. I'he assault, it was
iwatea, avaa tritild-in its nature; and yet for this offence.
the Learned Chairman had. sentenced the prisoner to six
months' imprisansuent and a fine of 1001. the tread-mill
t being then in existence. - Applicailion was made to
pot
rd Sidmouth for i remission of the sentence, but that
le Lord just then went out of office, and was suc-
weeded by the Right Honourable Gentleman opposite;
pne of the first acts of whose authority was to liberate
Mr. Flint,and to remit the fine which had been imposed'
upon hiM. This was a circumstance Which woad tia-'
mall* lead the House to suppose that the original seri;
tence had not been-merited ; and the fact of the Honour.
able and Learned Gentleman to whom he had so often
• luded having hisnSelf interfered to procure a.remission
Of the sentence, went to prole that he also had thought-
-4 too severe, arid had in consequence exerted his influence
to have it remitted. The Learned Gentleman apolegisedi
for having detained the House so long, and moved that
The Petition be brought up.'
Mr. lIOLME SUMNER opposed the bringing up of
the Petition, and declared that no Gehtlentau could act
as. a Magistrate if he was to be subjected illegally to
ealumny and attack. He doubted not that the Honour-
able Member for Staffoid Cotild give the fullest answer
to every charge that'. the Petition contained ; but the'
proper mode of proceeding, if any proceeding were ne-
cessary, was iv the Court of King's Bench ; and he Cer-
tainly Would divide the lionsehefore he saw the Peti-
tion brought up. '
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Mr: CHET%VYND' Offered 'his' prayer to the House
that the Petition inighVbFlatisTight up, iinreiery
,aiSer.
xion in it investiiate.d. 'He should-feel fiimself unwor-
thy to sit"in Parliament, tir7ever again to.aeras a Ma-
gistrate, if he consented to.itsitiection on any point of
iform. If. he 'did not, to the•very-letter, refute every
:charge•that it. contained, he would be-Contame alit. the
'House should eipel•htus; arid' that the Lord Chancellor
should strike•ifistatte out of tke.Corniitigsltaf.-..,7 • • .
The ATTORAY.O•ENERAIa had no'deilitit that
the. Honoura4le and Learned Member for Stafford was
,well prepared to answer alt thsstatements of Mr. Flint'
in his. Petition; but tho question was, whether the HOuSe
Would alloW hint- to answer those statements'? and lie
(tlie. Attorney-Geneial) hoped that it would tot. At
the same time, however, that he tholi;lit the Flonotir-!
'able nernber for St .fford ought to 1): precluded from

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noiicing the Petition presented', there were some de•
el:mations in it, and imputations, so- transparently at
variance with truth, that be could not himself consettal
to pass over them in silence. With respect to Mr. Abra,,,
ham Flint, against whom the Hon. Member for Staf..
ford was supposed to entertain a prejudice, it wet to'
the interference.of that Hon. Mcmber (first,,-with Lord
,:, •;... .... eieraoheisehattight 4 .."etiaer, ;it itecnolsoassiad-foe
the exercise of mercy, and next with tlx piesint 'Right
Hp. Secretary, who had been' of a%cliffetent opittroq.
t at IW. Trint iisFed,:the Mitigation of a sentence 414ga
had..heen-passeltrpon. hint -under the vecelict of a Jetty.—
Mean) Upon_ Abraham- Flint's ill.sitirament, aye.
woad say .no more.
.Nnw, what were .the .case anti
the charges of ifle petitioner ? A ceriiiii. individual.
having comritittedstlieach of the peaeat, and being ins
the custndy of a constable, Mr. Flint had been one of a-
mob of ,500, -who endeavoured tb rescue him. The
petition suggested, that when he had been brought first
before a Magistrate forsthis offence, that Magistrate had'
refiised to bind him ores to the • Sessions. ' That -statt-
mentiwas id the petition, although the Honourable and
Leathed Member for 'Nottingham 'had not mentioned
it; and, like many other 'statements in the Petition, it
is untrue..*: Another suggestion in 'the Petition; that
i'
. e Petition-el-had not originally been meant to be in-
cted, but had sithselneiltly been prosecuted at the in-
itaqce of the Hon. Member foe'Stafford—this sugges-
tion was contradicted uPon okhi by the Hon. Member
for Stafford, in theCoiiretif :King'ifiencli, and also by
the agent who had managed tht prosecution on thepart
of Sir George Jerninghain. If he(the Attorney-Gene.
nil) opposed thi bringing up of the Petlion, it was be-
cause it contained statements false and calumnious.
How could the Honourable Member for Stafford' act
but as lie had dune? Ile was. Chairman of the Res.
slims. The case was tried before a Jut y. In oinimitts
up, he repeated every Oita of evidence to the Jury ;
and in his law, as he laid it down, all the Magit-
L trines , on-the Bench made affidavits that they - hat
*greed.—(Hear, hear). Then, a sentence was to bt
pronounced. In that matter the Bench had. not relied
phone upon itself. Magistrates in atiendance—(this fact
was proved by Sir Oswald-bloaley)—Magistrates Of tilt'
highest respectability, who were in attendance, had been
Consulted, and the sentence pronounced had bet% the
result of their united opinion—(Near, heat). With re-
spect to the sentence, then, if the Honourable Member
for Stafford had been wrong, how a ere the test of the
Magistrates situated ? With respect to the punishment,
it would not have been possible to sentence the persons
indicted with Mr. Flint to hard labour, with,lut includ:
ing him in the same degree of penalty—(Cheers). Otte
word, however, upon the-mode in which the punish-
ment of " hard labour" had 'been inflicted. The Ho-
nourable Meniber for Nottingham had talked of the
tread-mill, and' had spoken of .hard labour for three
months.: Now, in thewho:le•three months, the Petitioner
had worked in the treicloial five hours—(Near). ' *,
Mr. DNMAN.7.-.lsitlatlie Honoutahle and Learned-
Gentlemen mean five hotirtonly in all?
The ATTORNELG.ENERAL meant no more— '
(Hear,hear). After
_that,oi! a representation, he bad'
been employed-in carding wool and. spinning it-,-(Fleur,
and laughler)—affd after that, upon a second represen-
tation, he had been allowed to do, nothing.. The story
of his having been shut up fur forty days-70f his hav-
ing been fed on bread and .water, &c.—of these mutters
and others in the Petition, the Attorney-General'would
say nothing, because the llononi able' Attorney
fneNnt-
tingbam had not touched upon them. The cd4e
statements of the Petition had beer contradicted upon,
oath in the Court Of Kieg's Bench, by the affidavits-of.
Mr. Clare, the agent of Sir .Geinge. jerninghatn, the'
surgeon of the prison, the tack-master of the Oscan; and
the Honourable Member for 'Stafford himself —(f lear,•
hear). The delay of which the Honourable Member:-
for Nottingham had spoken, in the King's Bencli.pri•
ceedings, arose out of the application cii.thealefendants
for time to answer the affidavits filed agaiti4t, them;
but the Petitioner.probably found it moscconseident to
make.his.statements in the shape at d' Petition; w*re,
if they happened not to be
.true, they •carreed.no legal
consequences along with then—(Cheers). , .
Mr. WETHERELL opposed the bringing up of the-
Petition, consideting that a 'Petition Was .not..the cotiris
by which the party, if aggriefi,ed.sliptilditaee pfotieeded;
Mr. PEEL, who considered hinitel(in fo.,,,q,rne,iitui
as' sintilesly situated with the Honourable blemberfor
Staff:44l,4o6ld riot detain the Huhse moire than a very
few moments upon the question. The remission of sen-
tence which he tad thought.himself entitled to make in
the case of "Abraham Flint, "bid proceeded (k wk's the'
seeikisi application) upon the interference of "the'Histi.
Member for Stafford. The-ground-of that Himont-Ale
Membeer application had beta,- that a witness who-had
gitien evidence on the trial-of Mr, Abraham Flinv.had
had his credibility 14100 lippn. a, shitsetthint oeCitclUni.
and the letter Of time Hon. Menibet had Cos: 44d its
these terms—" l' feel-fully. justified, under suchlireirm-
stancea, in impkiting 'theithy'at etemerieZfor this un-,
fortunate person ;. and as heis now siteiting from caw.
finement, and his family;ate in disktess;,l beg leave tot.
sitlicit your earliest attention to his case"--(1-kne,lime).
This was the person against whorh Abe Hon, Member
for Staffard was said to ..hijaixe.j.itliiedil:Withiti a week,
a warrant had been issued for his li6eratitin474„fiinri.
Now 'to . the case of the Petitioner ; and. first, to 'the
charge,' against hintself; at ftdelay. 'Theo Petitioner hat
been convicted in Octobie.Thst, it isris,said ,—`-it was not
until December that he (ti-; Irma) ever. .heaid of his
trial—(Hear). . • •
Mr:DENMAN said, that' he Lad -not been. Matt
when the case had reached the liondurable Sai'vrary,
Mr. PEEL—Then why did the Hon. and-Learned
Gentleman make the charge without knowing?
Mf.-DENMAN had suited thecemplaint as-he found
it. in the Petition. ' ..
. ,
Mr: Secretary PEEL proceedtal4o state;•th at he ha,
first received the 'Petitione& Mernoiiii. on, the;fith
December. Ile.had applied- for information to tin
Honourable Member for Stafford; as the Judge before'
whom the iitaiciment had been tried, and he should bar
felt 'ashamed of referring to any other authority. The:
Honourable Member had nritlacetitontent with sending
Up his opiuisn; he had sent u' the whole case, withthe
evidence, and had'said, '..! Do ~... hat you thi:'k fit." IC
(Mr. Peas) opinion had been that mercy could not coa-
-1 sistently be recommended. Into the- reasons tor tly.-
opinion, lie should not now detain the House by enter-
ilig : but he thought it right to say..that;in his view; die;
sentence was• i• lenient one ; and.he posipened furiser
detail untillie saw what became of the Petition.
AIr:IITTUTON' ihnught ' the complaints of the'
`petitioner groundless. There could not be a more zeal.
out, able, and intelligent .Magistrate than his-Hon.-and
Learned Friend, against whose conduct they. Petitioner
complained. Ile had some right to find fault with-
manner in which the Honourable and Learned Member

. -- --. :.--
PIIIIIIIIIII
. '
. .
[I .
--------.,-----1---_ possession.
a...---....--.
PARLIAMENI'ARV PROCEEDINGS. whom that
I
'
1
1
14';'44:' • •••••;111111":•-•
notTSR OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 27. pit to itsch.,
bunals to vi
'('leis morning the Loup estaNctl.t.on sat foe' the winding up of ,persoji writ,.
stare minor eases in the Queensberry Appealiastsen the ease of several door
Greenhill v. Alain, of Iktudie v, Aitkin, and of Mutt V. I'otts,
uk eggAgy.wallyAgad our,,r;AAjourvasil dorling.p/mure. , fixed to the
..„
ThcatOit t) Mil Net DittOß, ora ttlrrenttninref •thr Untie, taped )",i'l
stated that as be understood that their Lordships would not akit on companied,
weanesdnp.sst.-it beim Afh.Wednexyweionlogjaritly:ol4l, att.,Lhuktri
tiojuTgaeat. could is; moved on iSt7 ay
of the delays vihith had intervened, to give tutignpi.ktii'.o..n. accoun ve icli this
• he Queens! - °
questionable
ilPrrV cases on 51ondav neat. _ - .._ . . . . ; ... ...-.1- ... I

• , e *

• S

I

-

the Perition4Wattl: Surely he ought at
take... Care to see that; all the allegations
groeoiled, • and supported -by testimony of
ehinteter. The ..Hosioutable and * Iswernbil
.idelitillea ''lrfattelt tab Ckaely,
feelings of. the PetitirieeicandTo hate iciepteed,
due examination and -caution, ,iho.-charges.
• - • Honourable and ficarried +hefted. • Thr-
,;unistrates had drine•more'ittititetti
lionotinable and Learned 'Gentleman had *done to
Niagistsates. They at least took the precatition
of
ostainingis etatementnithe case from the Secretary of
sratesOffice, and had looked into the evidence with the
• clan-Inspection.. Another.of the . Magistrates,
Pe," had desired him to.deClare to the Hoese,.
I most anxious totake his-share ih whatever •
tatteich to the conduct•of the' 'Chairman •of
SiSioni. ',There was not a void of 'the'.
Which:this Gentleman did not-concur. The'
Oswald Mosley was another pledge of the'
and )ustice of the conduct pursued by the,
llagistiates, than Whom there could not be a
inright and conscientious man. . Had there.beeies
Int measure of justice dealt out to Mr. Charles
that:Which was visited upon his five accoat•
were sten in the lowest walks of life— shoe-
.ailars, and .cordwainers—there wdeld• have,
crease for complaint. He opposed the br.
the Petition.
IRGES•BOURNE could not consent to al-1
Petition to be brought up.' His objection was
the Honourable and Learned Member alleged,
attributable to the corruption of the Magis-
the Petition did allege corruption,„ as thef
and Learned Gentleman did, then this was
proper tribunal for the appeal. The Court of ,
Iltinch was 'the Court to 'which the Pdtitioner
t-'ive taken his complaint. The gravamen of
was not against the summary nature and ar-
Conduct of the jurisdiction, but against the indH
dury-a matter upon which the Refuse could
itself into a tribunal of appeal, because the con-
.would be the most extreme inconvenience.
'JME warned the House against shutting its
Petitioners. His Honourable and Learned
. offered that the allegations should be esta-
ipon oath, not-merely of the Petitioner himself,-
other patties, His Honourable and Learned
therefore been hardly treated in the ebser-
the Gentlemen opposite, by the endeavour to
Kith the complaint of grievances in the Pe-
readily listened to and credited the state-
Attorney-General, as far as regarded the
. the Chairman of the Sessions; especially when
tpported- by -the • testimony of so many other
Gentlemen aeound him. if the Petition
fight up, therefore, in the present state of facts,
- House would be bbisnd, in fairness, -to op-
stieStihn which could not, however, be de-
. the petition 'he proper,. course,
would. be -to alio** his Hon. and Lsarned
withdraw the Petition, -tiil the allegations
:otitirtned Open Oath, and then alto's,/ him to '
gain.--71" N0...fr0,* the Afinisterial Ben 'es).
IN WROTTESLEY hid signed the resolu-
Magistrates passed in approbation of the con-
: Chairnfan, and ceihturred in everything ad-;
the Attorney-General upon the same subject.
sowever, made ooereservatioo, which had not
strictly • observed— namely, that the resolution
be directly poblished. His reason for
for present publieation was, that the conduct
forth}, and excellent friend, the Chairman, had
zed in one of the public journals in a manner
would not stigmatize with any particular epi-
stesent,,bec*use-it was likely to become the sub-
idicial decision---he would only say that the at-
, such atiato perion of honour-and sound feeling
piss unnoticed, or without calling for
ision'ofst.Coort of Justice upon his conduet. He
• accede to Withdrawing the Petition, becauSe
ct ial the Magistrates, which he thought un-
impeachable, Was concerned ciao deeply in the discussion;,
' assetted, without fear of contradiction,Ahat in all
therelcould not be' a set of mote meritorious
aces than those of.the county of 'Stafford.
WILSON wondered at the-proposition of the
Mintier for Sarfey—that the' House ought not to
the Petition, if true, for fear that other blagi-
should-lit' attacked 'in 'Sante distant.•tinte 'with
..6es:of Malversation, whci were neither °raters nor
dietoficians: the Attoniej-GeneratoPpoSed the bring-
the Petition, because he watipreparea to'denf the
ions. He (Sir. It. Wilson) knew nothing of the•
, and wished to learn its contents by hearing it
That was 'the right-of the people of Ehilindr,
would not-allow this atiernik to subvert it Wide-
bppOsing it, and demanding,' thatigh he *Stood, alone,
theik shonld be access to the Ffildse foitheii Petitions.
0. WYNN:was .coUriintied -that 'this Pe.iticin
not to be receiveit.'. It:' teas the tints- of every
tier to be prepirtof to 'total:Air ate contents of. a
before presenthig it teithe tkuse.:(L,pud cries
),no"). Honourable' Members had 'no right to
ipt him in addressing -the. Chair: and he called for
iroteetion by enforcing the General Order. 'He con-
' that no individual Member had a right to pre-
. Petition to the Haase Without pledgin himself
• contents of the Petition—(d€ No, no, no' )—that it
rained nothing disrespectfUl to the House-.--(fienr,
When Honourable' Membets were disposed to
that kind of cOntradittion to his observations,
iglit, at least, to take care to hear all that he had
it would he a much more safe and judicious
Ile expatiated on the general danger and in-
sience of allowing appeals from the jurisdictions.
:ounty to the House, and opon this principle op-
ale bringing up:of the Petition.
1111fGHT contended that before the House re--
• this Petition theyought to hear it. The prayer"of
'utition, as he understood, was for the repeal of an
;we law, and as such it ought to be received.
Secretary CANNING. wished* to know if the
!rabic and Learned Gentleman was inclined to
v.. the Petition?
DENNIAN said, he understood that there was an
lernber who would oppose its being withdrawn.
Secretary CANNING said, he should then state,
this Petition prayed fur that which the House
Al not do, namely, to re-try a case, he should oppose
being brought up.
`r. Secretary PEEL thought, as no question had
)ut on this Petition, the Honourable Member
withdraw it.
S. WORTLEY trusted his Honourable Friend,
id opposed the Petition itt the first instance,-would
saw his opposition, the Petition might then be
ht up, and no further proceedings be had:upon.ik
H. SUMNER was at a loss how he could arcade.,

. .
!to the'cotirse nowepeoposel, %much as he coniidefed
!this Petition as ap oetrager on the right of petitioning.
. The CHANCELLOIt of the EXCHEQUER thought
that the Petition sho'uta be -allo‘Ved-to be teithdrairn,
and not put ihe'floirse to the necessity Of rejecting, it. I
Me. DENMAN -denied tlias he had offered any'diii
nioneitheras to tree Unwed facts or the motives of tine
petitioner. it wars enough that the petitioner himself
houghs he was eggrievso, t weryint iti‘y Member.
Ipresenting his'Petitron. It had been ptit to hinitliar he
presided in a Court, and mould lie like to see the table
crammed with petitions:against Hine? But what -Ma-
istrate would not desire tell ave ireconduct canvassed?
Ile trusted that there was not an'iridividual in the king-
dom, in a judicial situation, from the' highest to The
'lowest,--that would not v.-611111c same,. In the preiene
temper of, the Howie he should withdraw, the Petition,
lest` by its decision the Houie should establish a prece-
dent that such Petitions should not be received.
'lle Petition was then withdriro: - •
• The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
moved that the. House should resorve itself into a Coro:
mittee of So We. •
Sii JOHN WROTTESLEY, had not understood the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, on a former evening, in
eteding his plats for the reduction of the interest on the
+per cents. to have-mentioned the period at which the
final plynlein would take place to the dissentients. It
would be a great convenience to the stockholders to.
have some idea-of the time iv/4n that would take place.
The CHANCELLOR of the EtCHEQUER said,
the resolution on that point went to thisthat all those
persons -who did not agree, should in-October be paid
pne-third of their stock. He-certainly had not stated at
what-period it would be convenient to pay off a further
propotti%,hecause.that .would depend on the -means
pace:sed by Government at the time. What was meant
by the mentionof aiubsequent payment of 10 percent.
was, that no less stun should bepaidOlf.
011014ANCE ESTIM-ATES.' • • •
The House twitted Committee„
Sir HENItx HA RDINGE fosetoliseiVe&Ordnance.
Estimates; and he was happy.toinforin thri•ComMittee;
that there was considerable diminution inevery branch.
Of the Ordnance Establishment. In the' last year the
total sum to be expended was 1,217,920/. in4the
year it was 1,119,7744. being less by 96,1461. • than last
year ; and if from that sem were deducted the barracks,
which had been tranaferred from the Ordnance Esti-
mates to the Barrsicb branch-oF tile department,. there
would remain a real ".di rniniklat of the .brinance of
67,0001. of which there was in the Extra Ordinaries the
very considerable se niref 55,000 L butt t
.eettlreat
saving he could' tiot hope to.ConsidkrAf..P!friarietit;'-bee:
ertese in the last year the estimates.. for...repairs had been
reduced to the very lowest amount, consistent with.
keeping the buildings iii repair: ' He' iveuld;inecifore,
ionsider this sum of $5,0004,‘ as a .suspension rather than
i diminution of e4escififiriq.. Under the item -of On-
piovided, the small.se)Prf7.l,o9o./.. only .was wanted•for
this year. The-setualiteseOf tine sum arose from the
sew-mode of lieer_iitihoit ccottrits'estab7ielaed by the
Master-GenerX4-Thii:reiult. was the ' gratifying,
.as this item 'was' one of which the -Ileusn',wos always
jealous, as it was one for %Web there was-isci:estiniate.
The three items or Oitiiii4ry; Estradrdhiavy, and
provided, comprised thetotal Chafe fOr
.tare effective
Ordnance Estimates, and fell belcitAr whai the Finance
Committee of .1819 had thought the Oteinsinte could
be reduced to. This great reduitidOhail been effected
by 294 clerks being reddeed ; and although a'great ad-
ditional labour had thus devolved upon those who re,
mauled to do the duty, yet to them the gratuities which
had been objected to were disallowed. The next branch
was the Bar racks, in which there was also no increase Of
charge, though there was an apparent -increase. The
vote was for 114,5311. the last year's vote was 100-,0001.
so-that there was an apparent increase of 14,0001. but
16,0001. ought to be deducted for repairs, so that in the
barrack branch there was a tieing also. Eleven bar
rack stations had been reduced ; and in Order to shew
the Committee the saving that had been effected since
the peace; he would inform therri that we had, during
the war, barracks for 167,000 men, ,which were now
reduced to what was sufficient for 42,060 men, being a
redticticin of barraCks for 125,000 men. The expense
during the war amounted to 620,0001. now the amount
was 1.1.0,0091. so that there was a total !owing of half
a million. The Irish part of the vote amounted to
134,0001. in this vote there was an excess of 29,0001. to
which, adding 5,0001. for barracks transferred, there
was a real increase of 28,0001. ,which was to be attri-
buted to the expense of the repairs of barracks. During
the last summer; a COmmittee of Inspection had visited
the whole cif the barracks, and it was Trorel their report
that the present estimates were formed.. During the
war; there were barracks for 80,006 men ; now there
were barracks for 36,000 men, to which might be added
3„000 men, that could be lodged in houses.• In
branch of Commissariat of Stores, the vote was 182,1951.
being 90,0001. more than last year. TM'S inereaseartne
lawn a cause which he hoped the House Would approve,
which was a supply of 21,000 iron bedsteads. The
Isoldiers had been hitherto is double births, which might
be necessary in time of war ; but certainly there was no
occasion for such an arrangement durihg peace. 'The
double births were formed by stages erected in the
apartment, so that in some instances there were four
beds in depth. To remedy this inconvenience to men
who had deserved so well of their country, this addi-
tional expense was incurred.,-(Hene, hear). There
was also an increase of the charge an account of stores,
sent to New South Wales and Sierra Leone. These two
items of bedsteads and additional Stores would fully ac-
-count for the excess of the Commissiriat Store Branch.
'Having gone through the whole of the three great
branches of the expenditure, he -would conclude by
•moving that the sum of 47,2991. be granted to his Ma-
jesty, for defraying the charge of the saint ies of the Mas-
ter-General arid Officers at the TOwer aed Pall-mall.
Mr. HUME said, he had'erpected that there would
be considirable reductions; more reductions than had
taken place. He confessed he had been herein, greatly
diiappointed. He'consoitin4def the old stores being
made a part of the Festinate, Though they were Mete
Carefully thatieup. The introdiscuon of the old stew*
octasioned erroneous calculation. He would give on
instance. On.a former year the estimate wa54,326,1)00L
the stores* were 2911,0061 so that the vote was for
1.,094,060. The amotint now was only 92,0001. less
than the estimate of 1019'; but ti:is was not to7be won-
tiered at if the present prepondetotialeel.trge. army were
to be kept up. The amount of the present estimates
was three times greater than.thitt of the golden period
of 1792.. He complained of theeliorgettor
the Towet.Bte. they ouglir Lobe reduterfon4 thirst. Dui
there was zerartieular'tenaeitY about these
was shorn, when,in the last Session the reductit*Eiribe

was

,'~'+~x'47"►3

las Ilrit-tivelitotsigre Of 'nth alter
- sos howlosppatieseil that such or
been absent many months in Lisbon, and was it..
The offics,had,pne aniatkibty well without
He had heasd that so nitrasur ves appointed-in
He contended that siteVaittisr.rea not necessar:
that t4bet• savings, iitightlie:elticted :by plicii
it 6" °PO'S'', -10 F. '‘.l2er-C..rM•Ahe •
clerks at the' Tnivieto correspond Wit
P;dl-1141? 11f Wireii ten dines licher, and
quarter of the debt, such ulna-ants ought
votes!. Where Was the occasion'uf 47001-
tahlishritent, when 19,0001. was sufficient in
fourth year of theWur. If the 1-7,0001- were
to 35 or:38.0001. twice. the arabunt of 1796,
see the office new-modelled 'in a week, but
• withheld the sopplies seduction would never
And Jet it be remembered that they were now
the Estimates were at the lowest amonnt—t:
He also condemned the receipt of fees -for exhibiting
the armoury at the Tower ; the price too having been'
doubled by the late C••lonel M'Mahon. lie knew of
lino law that would warrant such charges. As he.felt.-
illat reduction would not take plisee till the supplies
were limited 'by the House,, he therefore moved that
57,6001. be granted, being twice the amotint of 1795.
' lie•trusted that his amendment would have.the support
of the House-(Bear, hear). - •
Sir HENRY HARDINGE said,..that.as the dimiUp-
lion wap out of .the whole charge,. be:fruited it si Quid
appear that such amendment ought not4o be ailupted
in any shape. There had heinlargeyeductians amongst
the clerks at Pall-mall and the ToWer. -Tat absence of
Lord Beresford •was perfectly justifiable.. He waged)•
sent in`Portugal, on his own psivateaffairs. In Decent...
her' last the -Master-General wtnte to- the Lieutenant-
General, stating that his services were required. \Vheres
upon Lord Bet esford wrote, announcing that his private
afairs.would not-.permit Tsis return, and offered his re-.
..sigaation—(Year, hear). His general utility was
strtsrtgly felt, that the resignation was notthenzeceived•;
but it being Rand thae Lord Beresford, was nut likely
to return, Sir George 'Murray had been named' to his,
Majesty, and Sir. George Murray was now :the Lieute-
nant-General. He declared that the presence of a Mj-.
Wary Officer was absolutely necessat y- for the conduct-
ing the business or the Board.
Mt-. Hiralgsaid, the answer was anything but sad
factory. He asked why was to large an Establishment
still necessary ? It was not to satisfy the House to say,
that !leash the Establishment. was large, it was not soi
larri'iis it had-been; therefore there ought to be no,
turther reditttion—(Hear, hear). If Lord Beresford
Could' b 8 abterit five month's, • without injury to the set..
vice, Whatever might he the vote of that House, it was
proof that the Officer was not very useful—(Hear,
hear):. He should press his -amendment.--The num
ben were-s—'.
• For this Vote - . -
Fur the Amendment

,now

- 99
. 19

Majority in favour of the Resolution - 70
The s*tt tote was for £7,000 to defray salaries of the Royal La-
boratory: and £55,000 for salaries of Officers at home and abroad.
Mr. HUME-Objected to this, though he could not see
thtt they auld be much lower, unless Corfu and Zante
were to-support their own Ordnance Officers.
os,ooo for fifty-six blaster-genitors.
£67,000 for Royal Engineers and Sappers and Miners.
£247,2611 for the R6yal Regiment of Artillery.
Mr. HUME thought this corps a great deal too large.
We had not an Army equal to the Artillery, but it s. as
hopeless in him to..attempt to make a reduction.- He
said • nothing against the Artillery, but a reducti9n of
three or four battalions would be a saving of f"100,000.
Sir H. HARDINGE said, this etas the corpi that
required most drilling in case Of sudden war.
The next vote was £79,590 for the Horse Artillery.
Mr. HUME wished to know it Sir B. Bloomfield had
been brought back to the corps, though now abroad, on
a foreign mission ? .
Sir H. HAll DINGE defended theappoininient of Sir
B. Bloomfield, on the ground of the new.regulations..
Sir G. CLERK said, the arrangements were to be
tirade the same in the Ordnance as in the Msrine Service.
" The next vote was fot £l,OOO to the lospeciat-General of the
Field Troth
‘7,0•41 for the Medical Oeparsment.
£4;570 tor the Itiryil College•at Woolwich.
Mr. HUME wished to Noir, if the reductions in this
estahltshment-that had been promised had been carried
into effect ?
Sir H. HARDINGE sad, the number of Cadets
under instruction had been much reduced, There was-
a great number well qualified, and for whom Commis-
sions could not be obtained.
The nest vote was £75,574 for the Ordnance Extrxordinaries.
• Mr. HUME objected to 10;000i. for extra engineers.
He wished to' know if the Powder Works at Faversham
had been broken up, as he was satisfied that ss;e could
not want them again? He vs ished to know why Guern-
sey, Jersey, and the Canadas, could not pay their own
military establishments ? Uwe gave the latter countri,es
a free Government they would pay their own military;
like the United States.'
The next' vote was £1,020 for the Land Service. £ll7,oo6'for
the Ordnance in Ireland. •
Sir J. NEWPORT objected to- any survey .of Ire-
land as lawless.
Mr. GOULBURN said, . the Master-General was
satisfied of the importance of that survey, which would
be loon put into execution.
£512,552 for Halt-pay.
£42,140 for Retired Allbvvances.
£1,400.f0r Extra Fees. • • . •
Mr. HUME objected to the charge of paying fees it
-Our Own money. •
Mr. HERMES stated, that steps had been taken by
:the Treastiry in many cases to do away with the fees.
Mr. HUME, if he was allowed ConsOttee, would
'soon apply a remedy.
114,5314 was voted fur the Barrack Department of Great Britain.
Mr. HUME contended that the proposed Grant was
'Above the average estimate of former years, and uncalled
'foi by the state of the country. One half of the sum
was suffiCient. What could call 'for an expenditure
of sy.,oom for the repairs of- barracks, and 7,0001. for
a Riding School in St. John's Wood ? . .
Sir it, HARDINGE stated; that considerable redoc!
tion had been made. • Since 1822 a reduction of 1500/.
had beeii.matle. If the HonoUtable gentleman %Mild
point Out any specific. instantes.of e'iccestive expenditure,
the Board of Ordnincectoulil pay every attention to ie.
~oolonsi DAVIES protested against the whole ma-
nagement of-the thwack Establishment.
-Nlr. HOBHOU,S4' depyecated the plan of:converting
the King's Mews into Barracks. Formerly the country
was alt alive to the subject df Barracts,'but now a was
difficult to procure a single Petition—V. kmg44l.—Since
thopeace,4lte sutn iotekt.qtr airmcks in the United
itil)gdout had been ,6160,000 t. The time would- come
'Moen guilt a sy4eth mast aflpear: intole-r4bli. He

houses.. -Ordnance Depart.._
ducted in the same'manner as the. Navy, by which a
large sum would be saved to the connity. •
The sum was agreed to, and the Report ordered to be
received on Monday. , .
• . •
usorty 'LAWS.
Mr. Serjeant •ONSLOW rose to move the Order Of;
the Day, on the Usury Lays Repeal.ilifj.
Sir It: HERON, heed the Hoitiaurable Gentleman
would not bring on theaUbject at thatlate hour.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLIOW nbserieda that • both the ,
ft lends and. .
enemies of the Bill had agreed the discussion
Should come oil that night. 'The tune
.Was.only a few
minutes past tep o'clock.. . • •
The I louse rlivided:txpOn reedit* the Order *Woe Day.
For the Order of the Day, S 5 I Against it, 311 Majority, 54. •
Ugon the re-admission •of stl'angersto.the +Gallery,. •:• '
Mr. ROBERTSON was arguing against the principle
pf the 811. Cicero,lvhen 'We went to his province of
Cicilia, had put a stop !to.-Usury, whichwas also
by the laws of lustiniati. In thelialitn Re-
publics a • certain rate of -infer& was also fixed for the
use of money. At the present day Usury was sttietly
forbidden in Hambergh. The Report of the Com-
mittee was the most defectift he had ever seen. The
country had increa,ed in wealth and industry under the
pperation of Usury Laws, which fiaving for a short time
been repealed in the teign of Edward VI. had beente-
'enacted by Elizabeth. In China the effect of Ustity
had led to monopoly in every branch of trade. arid bad
completely extinguished the middling class of society.
,--Should the Usury Laws be repealed, that would be
the case in this country in the spate of half a century.
He trusted the Landed Interest would come forward
and oppose the • measure. Did the people believe the
House to be in earnest, the table would be 'covered
with Petitions- against the Bill. The Honourable Gen-
tleman here appealed to the evidence of Mr. Rothschild,
in favour of Usury Laws, and-cited the opinion of Dr.:
Adam Smith on the same subject. There was net a
country in Europe in which such liws were not to be
found. Such instances were indeed to be found' in
some countries in Asia; but would linnourable Gee.;
ilemen desire to see this countryin the 'same situa-
tion as those to which he had alluded ?*. 'He was ten:.
vinced, if the Usury Laws were repealed, the borrower
would he placed entirely at the mercy of 'the lender
and, persuad&i of this fact, he should oppose it, and
move, as an amendment, that this Bill be committed
this day six months.
Captain NIABERLY supported the Bill, which he
was convinced would be attended with great benefit to
the country. He had no fears whatever that the te7
peal of the Usury Laws wonid leave the borrowtr at
the mercy of the lender ; on The contrary, he was rer-.
suaded it would be favourable to the lender, and would
put an end to the ruitiou-practice of false bargains
and annuities.
Mr. Alderman HEYGATE was 'in rigor 'of the
amendment. .He censidered the 'Weil Laws as bene-
ficial to the country.: Whenever the House-was de fired
.to niter an existing lafi, those who asked for the altera-
tion were bound to show the necessity for die. change.
Now -had that been done in the present case? It had
not. Who asked for change in thii law ?,
.Not the
tradesmen—not the commercial men—not the Cities pf
London or Bristol, or the populous towns of Liverpool
or Manchester—but a few great capitalistkand -law-
yers, persons less capable of forming an opinion on
this subject than any other. There had• been a Com-
mittee on this subject who had examined witnesses,
But who were the per'sons examined? • Why great
capitalists, bill. brokers, and annuitants. If a single-
country banker had been examined, the Committee.
would have gained mote information than they 'bad
done ftom all the witnesses they had. called before them.
The Honeurable
.!Of:Jerman - then proceeded. to repeat
several arguments gaie'st.the repeal ofihis Taw, and
particularly urged the. dilllctilty 'in which it would in-
volve the Public in case of. another war;-and a necessity
for borrowing money for 'national purposes. He was
ready to acknowledge that the present Usury Laws re-
spired amendment, particularly as regarded the penal-
ties imposed on 'usurious contracts, which w ere so enor-
mous that they defeated their own object. If no other
Gentleman did, he would, in the course of the peseta
Session, move for leave to bring in a Bill to alter and
amend:the Usury Laws in this respect. •
Mr. C. WYNN supported (he Bill.
Mr. CALCItAFT was of opinion there was no mea-
sure which could be broughtTorward during the j.re-
sent Session,affectinglnore extensively, the Public interest •
than this did; and he was somewhat surprised that his
Majesty's Ministerg had not given their attendance
during the present discussion. lie was decidedly of
opinion this measure, which would have tl-e effect of
unsettling the mind of the country, and inter tiring with
almost :la existing contracts, ought not to'be adopted
without the utmost caution. Ile knew that the agita-
tion of this question had excited a great sensation in the
country, where, notwithstanding what was said of the
plenty of money, and discount being at Two and a Half
and Three.per Cent. men of good credit eould not get
money. ender Five per Cent. and this he was well ern-
,sinced of,- namely, that -tire general opiniini amoriFit
,Country Gentlemen was, that no circumstance mere in-
jurious to their interest could occur than the pas,ing
this Bill'. 'The Committee examined Mr. Gurney, a gen-
tleman well skilled in money matters, who said, that at
no period of the war hadhe found any difficulty in dis-
counting bills at Five per Cei4. Supposing thii Bill to
pass,. and another war to arise, did the House think Mr.
Gurney would be able to give sinyilar,.eviderict? • lie
was of opinion; such a measure as that 'now propOsed.
ought not so be adopted, without a previons.etnartiry:
much mime solemn than any which had )eftakenpfaie.:•
Mr. HUSKISSON thought it rather a novel course, tjr gop. -
Members to call for Cov'ermnunt to, take up in"stirts wliclt had
been brought forward by individuals. The lion. end ligarselkter-•
jrint.had intrOduted tfie -year after year, last essiou after Ste.
stun. He was the Chairman of the Committee, and•to give effect

I

had timugh"
104 go hare '
wcaeatell..e
sugslint.
membergelh
iritl4'e
feelia
ssitkost due
/least
Noisteatris it!
&home/tab
foe MAgistsal
°bailors et
state's Office,_
closest clitui
gr. Clart,, hl
• the he vra n
blame might
.:7e,`Cluarter I
:huge b Wh
tame of Sir I
rfsPrietY tttt
3esch of Ma
more oprtgin
a different m
Flint from tl
plices, who
taib
been jest each
jog up of th
• 11/1r...4TU
low the .Peti
this—&that th
no injustice ;
tram.
Honourable
sot the prop
Ainc
-ought to hat
the charge u
bitrary coed
ing of the hi
not erect itse
Seq emir wo
140111 M
.loon to re
"Vend had c
Visited epon
bet by oche
Friend had
TatiOAS of th
mix him up
tition. He
meat of the
conduct of tt
it was suppc
Honourable.
were brough
perbaps•the
pose it=l,a 9
tided ur„iil.l
at present, I
Friend to v
shouid be cr
preseiie it ai
Sir JOlll
lion of di :ill
duct of the
vanced by I
lie had, ho
been strict
should not I
ing itnrifit
of his word
been amidst
which he sv;
thets at pre!
ject of j tidic
tack was au
could suffer
the decision
could not a
the conduct
impeachabl
and he asse!
England
Magistrate!
Sir 41.‘
Mon. Mein
receive the
salter shot
charges:of
thetorieint
fag bp the
allegation
Petition, s
read. TI
and he w
out bppOt
thit ktiO
MnO
ought hti
Membet
Petition b
of "AO
interrupt
its proteCt
tended th;
sent a Pe
to the con
contained
hear). N‘
apply tha
tttey ougi
to say t• it
course.
convettiet
of the col
posed the
Mr. 11'
jetted th
• this Petit
Offirtessiv
Mr. S
Ilunoura
Nsithraw
Mr. D
Nle
Mr. St
that as tl
could no
its being
Mr. 8
been pu
Iniqht w
Mr. S
who Lad
Withdral
brought
• 1

_ ... ~
~ ,
.. ..--.- .. --- • .
. . . _
, . . • . e .r-*•-r
• . i : ''... .e.
. •
. .
. . '
. .
pia for. It dogitiklit_ • Aserownilad the-right to to•vert it 1
peer was ne- 14(enekintsi ' . ke,• ~, • .
o(face!
.had . !lir BE Y. H itlttliNOE,.i.siid,".ibllt,.."l"ltlit. c. 4 it Ito' ' • . v..
I now there? acteshaviritaf 200001. in the-Barrack Department. kit . s•
. t:
• i
rithout him. 'the Oresent rat. Nothing-could Oe wissereflor a soldier •
in his stead.. thin rO'be cOroolllo4o frequent Ael§it'inblic-hoases . •. .
.;
hairy ;, and 4f .Westminster, whieli irbitld be the case if they were
plicing the •lilletea.thein. • . . - -,s,
occasicnuto • • Sit RatreT ifEßON'oliferfetioliat the 'evil arose . .. •
• '
itli thine in fritra kleanilkait ArMy,:a illiiT,'unlikto'n;n'tO onr'inees- • :i,
,cr had not a inr.S, shnit ihe.purettimes oltheConsuiiiiOn. ,
,
t not to be ' Mn HUME wortld.cnt down the.vote from 1 f4,06(1/0 I 1
for snehs- to •100,0001• on 'the grOond that the Riding School in f ' '1
.n 1796,•the Sr.' John's Wood was tiiineeessary, inil 'the allowance to, . 1 i
ere seduced the Barrack Masters was excessive. : . t.
. . k
.:
they would The Committee divided—For theoriginal sum, 93 ; . 1
,ut till- they For-the Amendment, 38.
er be made.. .. :.14.1,
- XI 0,000 fur lite •Barrack 'Department in Iteland. - . • ;AP
ow told .‘,.,, ?he same tem -Nr the Commissariat and store. Department. . . ,
, „___„:,_`_'
„_",`.. Mr. MADER LY objected to the txpense of store-
L'icaT"""") houSer. The -Ordnance Department should be con- .
..