Star.
London, England, 1815-05-31 00:00:00

Zeal discontent. If:the Home refused to go into the
Committee, which was all that he contended for, the
wealthy and respectable part of the Catholics would
only be the more effectually placed under the domi.
nion of the agitators. Take them out of that oppres-
sio:l, and the best consequences would ensue. He
was y to see a disposition to ransack newspapers
and intemperate speec!'es for materials, wherewith to
induce the House to act upon feeling, not on judg-
ment. For his part, without binding himself to sup.
port the resolution, he ahould cordially vote for going
into the Con inittee.
Mr. 13. BATHURST opposed the motion, and
asserted it had always been held, that when a Com-
mittee was moved for, the party bringing forward
the motion should state what was. his object. and to,
what extent he proposed the House should go. This
was the common sense of the case, and the establish.
ed practice of Parliament ; but it was now asked of
them that they should go into the Committee, and
then do whatever they liked. The opinions which had
been publicly expressed by the Catholics, he was of
opinion. proved to demonstratiou that the course
now recommended would not be the means of conci-
hating them, and of terminating the existing diffe-
rences.. The minor grievances of the Catholics ought
not to be made a pretext for going into the Com-
mittee. These plight be made the subject of a specific
Motion. To go into a Committee on the Catholic
Claims at present would be to waste the time of the
'House, for as the former Bill had not proved satis-
factory, there was no reason to suppose that which
the Hon. Baronet wished to be allowed to bring in
would be more successful.

Lord BINNING would not enter on the general
question, of the Claims of the Catholics, but be should
vote for going into the Committee, though he might
there vote against every one of the Resolutions.- If
he wete to narrow his view vf the subject to the-con-
sideration of the conduct of individuals of the Catho-
lic Body, instead of looking to the general meta: of
the question, it was probable he should come to the
same decision that bis Right Honourable Friend (Mr.
Peele) had come to on the historical statement which
he had submitted to the House. He much regretted
the course taken by that Right Honourable Gentlyl
man in deciding against the prayer of the Catholics,
on the grounds on which he had acknowledged t
decision to rest. For himself, he did not feel thatit
bad any thing to do with what any factious.speechee,
which Drs. Millner or Dromgoole might have made.-
Whatever their conduct had been, it ought notto affect
the general question, If ever a question had gained
by discussion, this had. He thought the destiny of the
Roman Catholics (of Ireland) had been left in their
own hands. Had they Wit grateful to that House;
and to their firm and venerable friend (hir.Gratian),
they might now have been in a different situation.—
He regretted (the Honourable Baronet would for-
give him) that the petition of the Catholics had not
been entrusted ni the. same hands, which were so
long charged with it. and he lamented to find it
wanted a number of respectable names. Which had
been always attached.to it before. He objected to
the resolutions, as descending to minor objeeti, with
which it was not before thought advisable to encum-
ber the-great measure of Catholic emancipation, and
be also objected to them because they contained not
one word which went to give security to the Protes-
tant Establishment. • There was nothing in the 'oath
now proposed to that effect, as there was in that
brought forward two years ago ; and be, for one,
was of opinion, that the Catholic who would not
take an oath to support, the existing establishment
ought not to be entrusted with political power. He
WAS not very saw-tine as to the result of this day's
debate, but he should sit down satisfied that the day
aas not far distant when the decision of Parliament
, ptould unite all classes of his Majesty's subjects, and
bury all past differences in oblivion.
Mr. BANES commented with wine slverity on
the Resolutions of the Hon. Baronet, which in Ire-
land had, been published in the form of a Bill, and
which it appeared the Hon. Baronet had not brought
forward of himself, but had been gismo to him by a
body of men whom he believed to represent a large
portion of the Roman Catholics of Ireland. He saw
no prospect of conciliating measures being succesfully
pursued, as the Roman Catholics required the surren-
der of all which they wished to obtain without offering
any security in return. Till the Church of Rome
adopted a differeht mode of.treating those who might
be considered acheretieal from that which had been
hitherto pursued,- he was of, opinion Catholics could I
-not be entrusted power, without an ap-
prehension that they wottldittempt to use it for ulte-,
nor purposes. He thought farther ought to,
be done with respect to the Catholic Claims, till they
-came forward with those securities which might sa-
tisfy the' Protestants. Till this was done, it was not
too much to say, they would not proceed one step
farther in the business. Under all the circumstances,
seeing no prospect of a final and conciliatory arrange-
ment with the Catholics—seeing the Resolutions were
not .the work of the Hon. Baronet, but had been put
into his hands by certain individuals in Ireland—
seeing that they had not the concurrence of those re-
spectable persons who had usually been the advocates
of the Catholics on former occasions—and not seeing
that any beneficial result could be expected from the
course now recommended to the House, he hoped the
motion would be thrOwn out by a large.majority.
Lord CASTLE,REA.GH thought, that under the
manner the question was brought on to-night, it was
not very likely to advance. If *it depended on his-
individual judgment, instead of the progress of the
passions and prejudices of men. be should not hesitate
.00 support the measure which had already met with
the approbation of the House, although it should be
received in Ireland with an unjust Ind extensive feel-
ing of dissatisfaction. He well knew that all melt.
sums which interfered with the feelings of mws, had
been resisted in their origin, and therefore did not
expect this one tould be exempted.from the common
tate. He looke to the speeches and politics of indi-
viduals, as the cause of the delay -in the settlement
of the question. He had always considered the
measure as not giving the Catholic.: such. power as to
endangerthe safety of the State, even if .they were
disposed to misuse it. But when he saw the pains
taken to withdrak that queition from the hands of
an Honourable Gintleman, •to 'whose abilities and
motive both sides of the House paid homage, be
thought it was now brought forward in contrast to,
the spirit of the yiar before last. T heHon. Baronet
asked for the unconditional admission of the Catholic,

.• . .
into our Constitnkien, thongs they were not prepared
to be. connected with bi malfek principles on which
it was known their religion would allow them to be.
He wished, if the Petition meant what he had stated
unconditional emancipation, to give the Catholics in
the Committee the distintt sense of Parliament on
that point; and they would find so decidedly against
it, that he trusted they would withdraw that claim.
There was,
.therefore, no inconsistency in his voting
for the Committee, when he said he should not vice
with the object of the Petition presented by the lion.
Baronet. If in the Committee any proposition of a
different nature should be made, he should give it
the support of his vote ,• but until the Catholics of
Ireland shoed shew A dispinition to conciliate, he
thought their cause would go down hill. He con-
cluded by stating
i that he should vote for the Com-
mittee, but that nso doing be should not consider
himself bound to depart from the sentiments he had'
hitherto expressed, or to originate any proposition on
his own part, or any modification oldie Honourable
Baronet's Resolutions.
Mr. WHITBREAD concurred with the Noble
'Lord, that there were many of the propositions against
which he might vote, but he could not think that the
House should merely pass their negative upon them.
The Noble Lord had said, that he had always spoken
with pain on the subject; but he ( Mr. Whitbread)
confessed, that •he had never spoken without hoping
that the day was approaching when this important
question would be set at rest. In the liat Session,
when the first clause of the Bill was negatived only
by a majority of four, he considered that the prin-
ciple of the question had been fairly carried, and tb it
after that the great cause of the Roman C atholics and
of
.the country would be triumphant. Ile should
love thought that the Catholics would then have
kone straight forward; but when 1p! hound that they
bad defeated their own interests, he could not but bit-
terly lament the c .rte they had thought proper to
Adopt. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Peel) hid tjalked as if he was a persuaded person ; but
the House well knew that he had been constantly op-
posed ea the tlaims of the Roman Catholics ; and it
now appeared that they had furnished him with wea-
pons, for which he ought to be obliged to them. The
Right Honourable Gentleman was an admirable col-
league with them they seemed to say, " You "take
one side, and we will take the-other, and we a ill then
inflame the community, which will end in our com-
e= ruin." Ho' did not mean to attribute to the
Right Hon. Gentleman any arrangement with the Ca-
of Ireland-I. but the coe.duct of Mr.-O'Connel
was exactly like his,aending toed sorts ot inflammation.
It, then, there was little hope of conciliation on the
pan of the Catholics, there was just as little on' the
part-of the Protestants. An important personage,
however, who had been introduced into the discus-
sion in 1813, had not been mentioned on the present
occasion. The Pope, it seemed. was entirely dis-
missed from the debate; yes, the Pope, Bonaparte's
Pope, who was to be met by an Irish Pope at Bally.
shannon. The Catholics would consider, whether
they were really sincere. Of their sincerity he had
no doubt—but he had no doubt, also, that their
course of proceeding had been wrong; and if one
thing more than another could convince him of it, it
was the act of removing their petition from those.
hands in which it was sanctified. They must in some
degree act by counsel;—but they had" rejected the-
counsel of that man who was the most willing, and
the best qualified to advise them. He did not think
it necessary to comment on the resolution— the only
question was, should the House go into a Commit-
tee ? To this he answered aye ; for in that Comtnit-
tee the House might propose all those securities which
items acknowledged ought not to be dispensed with.'
He conceived, however, that the army, the navy, and
the bar, ought to be thrown open to the Catholics.
Because Mr. O'Connel (who was doubtless a man of
abilities) and Dr. Drumgoole had made violent
speeches on tie subjecit that was no reason the House
should not listen to the Petition of the Catholics.
Where was the place, and what the occasion of any
consequence, in which 'a demagogue was not to'be-
found ? Bit because violent language had been used
by Mr. O'Coonel and Dr. Drumgoole, the Noble
Lord would not listen to their Pennons. So because
Bonaparte rules in France we must not think of or
listen to any terms of peace. He should most cer-
tainly vote for "the proposition of his . Honourable
Friend, thoup, he must confess.he could. have wished
that the business had not been brought forward at
present.
. Lord CASTLIIIIKAGII and Mr. PULL severally ex.
plained. •
Mr. WELLESLEY ,POLE*.avaidd.loud cries of
Question, question /*assured the- House he would de-
tain them but a few moments. He was at present
the same steady friend to the Catholic claims as he
had ever been, but he could not bear the idea of that
House being dictated to. His Right Honourable'
Friend (Mr. Peele) had appealed to him for the ac-
curacy of the statement he had made. He thought
his Right Honourable Friend's speech was very ac-
curate and correct : but that if it• wanted any thing,
it was a little exaggeradon—( Load Laugh forivs
nuter).—As soon as the House recovered its serenity,
the Right Hon. Gentleman said he n.eant to say,'
that correct and accurate as his Right Honourable
Friend's speech was, it would certainly have fairly
admitted of a higher colouring. He then described
the violent proceedings of the Committee, or rather
the Convention, the dregs of which were at last re-
duced to form violent demagogues, who skulked
about from corner• to corner in Deblin, under the
name of a Board, but he believed their eavings.by
no means spoke the sentimeits of the'great body of
the Catholics. The greater part of the Nobility and
persons of the highest respectability had for some
time withdrawn themselves from those meetings in
Dublin. He regretted that this business had been
brought forward at present, and that it haillrpt been
left in the powerful hands of the Right'H•u rabic
Gentleman wSo had first brought it torwird with so
much splendour and effect, and whose pre-eminent
talents were alone suited to the arduous task of main-
taining their claims, and whose conciliatory disposi-
tion and prudent measures were the most likely to
'obtain the objects the Catholics had in view. If the
House went into the Committee, which he would
certainly vote fors he should, notwithstanding, vote
'against the Resolutionst. which went
securities.
Mr. of
•granting emancipation without any se
Mr. W. ELLIQT said, he was still cow
he had ever been, that on this important

. . .
• -
truly intersting to ;he welfare and prosperity of the •
two countries, no gond would •ever be done hut en et
plan of mutual concession.- He leirrented.tlie ques-
tion :tumid have been brought forward at present.
and much more that it should have been taken moot
the bands of the Right Honourable Gentler, tit whose
superior abiiities were so well Gtr:d to cart y it through
with success, and *hose consummate pradence hid
hitherto carried it through all the raging storms that
hid from time to time ass pled it, and with which,
lie was sorry to say, it was still so gloomily surround-
ed. It was a heart-breaking circumstance to see this
inflamed wound kept open, festering and corroding
the peace and happiness of the Empire. It was a
subject of vital importance, and when fortnight for-
• %vat d again, he hoped to see it engage and receive,
as it was truly entitled to do, the countenance and
most serious consideration of 311 those of his Majesty's
Ministers who had any pretensions to the character of
Statesmen.—( Loud cries of quelt;on,. veltivn).
MY. VESEY FITZGERALD shonjd vo:e for the
Conimittee, and with sentiments similar to most of
those who had preceded- him, and whatever might be
proposed most resembling the Bill of 1813, was that
which he should most approve. He lamented that
the splendid services of years were forgotten, and the
Catholic cause would have to lament that it was in
other hands than those of. Mr. Grattan. If that dis.
tinguished person could find consolation in any cir-
cumstances which had diminished the favour with
which the claims of his country had been entertained
by Parliament, he. might find it in the grateful and
unanimous tribute which had been paid to his judg.
merit, his-moderation, and his unquestioned patrio.
tism. He gave his vote then for the Committee, in
c ins.stency with his former opinion, and in the hopes
of better time;; of those times, when the question
might again came forward under the auspices of him
who had before carried it so near to its CO3Sllmmation,
and for whom it was yet reserved. He felt within
him it was reserved to atchieve a measure which
would conciliate the Irish people, which would give
to the empire the best confirmation of its strength, and
to its illustrious author an imperiihable fame.
Mr. HUSKISSON spoke shortly in favour cf the
motion for a Committee, though he could not agree
to the resolutions. ( Universal crier of que:tiun, gmc‘rion.)
Mr. GRA.rrAN then rose amid loud cheers, and
said—ii Sir, it is not my intention to trespass, at any
length, on the patience of the Home. I shall con-
fine myself to a few sentences, as I do not wish to
give a silent vote,' circumstanced particularly as I
am. (Hear/ear!) I shall vote for the Committee
on the same principle open which I have often voted
before ; but Ido not pledge myself to the Resolu-
tions which my Hun. Friend has exlithite.l. I will
go farther, and say,. that for some of the ltesoldtions
I could not vote. (Rear, hear.) in cunsideriny, the
Catholic question it is not sufficient tai dwell on what
is strictly necessary and just, we shiiuld also have re-
gard to the feelings of men, and the reflection of
what is possible and practicable. I condemn those
applications for unqualified concession. ( /leer, kw.)
—I am sorry that in-doing so I have offended some
Gentlemen ; but my conviction is, that such a prop-
sition cannot pass. (Hear, hear.) When they desire
emancipation without conditions, they ask two things;
first, that they should obtain their object—and, 2.4 y,
that they should not obtain it ; for they put their de-
- nutid in a shape which must intuit- its rejection. If
I had flattered the Catholics. and told them—' you.
have a right to make this demand—urge it, and you
will succeed,' I should have deceived the Catholics.
I have supported their question with a desperate fide-
lity. (Hear, hear.) I do not mean by desperate,
that my zeal would lead me to any unworthy or un-
constitutional compromise, but that it has always
sustained me, even where there was no hope of suc-
cess. Unless the Catholics come to the House in a
spirit of conciliation, I say they will not succeed.--
(Cries of Rear.) I told them so before. I will go
farther, and say, that conciliation is not only neces-
sary to their interests, but essential to their duty, to
the duty which they owe the State, and the duty
which they owe one another. If they do not succeed..
it will not be owing to any illiberality in the Protes-
tants, but to a want of moderation in themselves. If
they do not succeed, their want of success oil arise
'from their wantiof discretion. I regard the Catholic
Body with sentiments of strong attachment. The
warmth of young minds may have betrayed some of
them into errors, which I regret as injurious to their
cause, but unless conciliation was adopted, nothing
else can be of use. I shall vote for the Committee,
and the sentiments I shall carry into it are those which
are registered on the Rolls of Parliament. (Hear.)
Sir H. PARNELL shortly replied. He was con.
vinced the more the Catholic claims were discussed,
the more just and reasonable they would appear ; and
he hoped the House would agree to go into the Com-
mittee, for the purpose of evincing this circumstance.
A division then took place—ln favour of the mo-
tion, 14,7—Against it, 228—Majority SI.
The o:her Orders of the Day were then disposed
of, and the House adjourned at one o'clock.

The Favourite:, at starting, won both the Derby and
Oak at Ettrony last week ; there is another Class of
Favourite:, about which the Public seem.to be no less
sanguine, we mean the FaVouiite Number: in the Lot?
tery, of which, by the enquiries making at the vrrious
Offices, all ranks seem to be eager to obtain posses.
sion.—We are not surprised at this, when we see, by
the Scheme, that One 'lithe nay gain £40,000, 111
Beni-Note:, and £5250. in Guineas—the latter are
weighty reasons for adventuring.
Awn ATTRITION.—.We understand • that a Steam.
Engine. belonging to Messrs. PRESTON and DEAN, of
Strangeways, near Manchester, of 32 horse power,
was packed and primed with the Royal Pa;ent.ANrt.
ATTRITION Composition, which is sold at No. 4,
Charing Cross, .near the Admitolty,•London, on the
23d tit December, 1814, and that it.worked up to
the 24th of April, 1815, witho,ut any other dpplica.
don : and an Engine belonging to Messrs. Kb-meson
and Lea, of Birmingham, has worked longer with
one priming of the ANTI. ATTRITION than it e'er did
with three applications of any othet.orticle. We also
understand that an Engine, of 43 hore 'power, be.
longing to Messrs. Roscot's and Dixon, near Holy.
well, has worked five months with one p. iming of the
Composition ; at the expiration of Moth period the
Engineer was of opinion it would work at least Ave
months longer, if not more, with the first applicatioht
•

Mao
nrioccd, as and their coal wagvns, under ground, g' six weeks
itlestiopt so with a single priming.