Star.
London, England, 1822-05-16 00:00:00

sT xs•
i his Fi
'
Secretary of Legation • and when a Minister Pleni-
potentiary was absent, he had to pay a day,
whereas, formerly such charges bad been paid by the
I Public. At the present time, the Powers of
Europe
prided themselves that they- kept no secrets from each
other, but that circumstance had occasioned an im-
Immo increase of business. At no period was there
such a mass of diplomatic talent in the country; and
at present there were twenty-one young men em-
ployed without salaries in the offices of the different
Embassies. The Diplomatic Service was a losing one
to all concerned in it ; and many would feel severely
the diminution' of 10 per cent. Helad the testimony
of the late and present Ambassadors at St. Peters-
burgh; and the present Ambassador had stated, that
he could scarcely-contemplate the situation in which
he would be placed. He had been sent thither on
account of being peculiarly acceptable to the Ern- ,
peror of Russia. He (Lord Londonderry) had been
assured by Lord Cathcart, that during the seven
years he had been Ambassador at St. Petersburgh
he had spent of his private fortune what would have
bought an annuity of two thousand pounds a-year.—
Lord Clancarty, our Ambassador also in the Nether-
lands, had expended 16,0001. the first year, and
18,0001. the next. He had been informed' by Sir H.
Wellesley that, during his residence in Spain, he had
expended 7,0001. of his own private fortune. Our
Ambassador at Naples, recently appointed, had to
pay 8501. for a house The influence of this country
was never so high abroad as at the present day.—
This influence was retained, if not acquired, by the
high-minded character of our foreign Ministers. It
would be impossible to keep this influence, if tho'se
Ministers were compelled to slitik into corners of the
tdwns in which they resided. Theirhouses, he thought,
should be the resort of those who gave dignity to
their establishments. Those who entered their houses
with fair and honest views should be welcomed ; but
,those perturbed spirits who wished to disturb the
peace of the world, deserved to be reprobated and dis-
couraged. He was well persuaded that the minds of
Englishmen were too enlarged and elevated to grovel
in the manner that was suggested to them ; and that
they would blush to be told that the Representa;
tives of the Throne appeared in any other character
than .that which became so great a nation—( Hear).
,For his own part, he declared that so long as the Go-
comment of this country was monarchical, and so
'long as the splendour and dignity of the Crown were,
as he believed they 'were, - essential to the liberties of
the people, he never would be a party to the de-
priving of this country of the fair influence which re-
sulted from that form of Government, and that dig-
nity and splendour. These were to be preserved by
the upholding of our diplomatic relations, which were
the best safeguards of our foreign interests. It was
unnecessary to say that Ministers, and particularly
the Minister who superintended the foreign policy of
the country, could no longer discharge the duties of
their stations with benefit to the people and with ho-
nour to themselves, if they were bound by such a de-
cision of that House as was that night proposed, and
which went distinctly to the declaration that they had
lost the confidence of the country—(Hear, hear!
Drone Me Opposition).—For his part, he was prepared
to say, that if it should please the House to approve
of such a motion, and by so doing to place the de-
tailed Administration of the Foreign Affairs in the
hands of a Select Committee, he should feel degraded
to the dust—unfit to chew his face to the world—if
he consented longer to remain in office after such an ar-
rangement—(Hear„and a laughfrom the Opposition).
The Hon. Gentlemen opposite had no confidence in
him, let them look out one amongst themselves (for he
was not one of those who thought they could not
provide a successor), to preside over the financial
affairs of the foreign department—let them act so,
rather than disfigure the Constitution, by usurping
the rights of the Executive Government, and exposing
to disclosure and investigation, by a Select Com-
mittee, those high political interests, the necessary
concealment of which sustained our paramount in-
fluence with foreign Courts; an influence which, be
had no hesitation in saying, would quickly disappear,
the moment we changed our antient policy of office,
and allowed a Secretary of State for the foreign de-
partment to be examined on the subject of the pro-
ceedings of his office—(Hear, hear).—So strongly did
he feel the impolicy and danger of such a course,
that he should meet the motion of the Hon. Member
by a direct and decided negative; for if it was
adopted, the Constitution was at an end—(A laugh).
.—(The Noble Marquis sat down amidst loud cheer-
ing from the Ministerial side, which was subsequently
re-echoed from the Opposition).
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH assured the House,
that he should have contented himself with giving a
silent vote, if the disfussion had been suffered to re-
main in that course in which it was naturally ex-
pected to flow, from the very able, temperate, and
perspicuous manner in which it was introduced by
his Hon. Friend (Mr. Lennard). 4, The Noble Marquis
has, however, thought proper to give a different cha-
racter and tone to the discussion. He has ventured
to describe the object of the motion as an attempt to
intrench upon the due dignity and influence of the
Executive Government; and that the Minister who
would submit to it was lost to all sense of feeling, and
fitted only to grovel in-the dust ; and all these charges
•the Noble Marquis has made on no other presumption
than the simple call of my Hon. Friend, on the House
of Commons, to exercise its constitutional privilege,
by appointing a Committee to inquire into a certain
branch of the public expenditure—t Hear, hear).—
Such were the monstrous conclusions in which, under
the desperate circumstances with which the Noble
Lord was surrounded, he has called upon this House
to concur--(Hear, hear).—The present motion went,
,according to the Noble Marquis, to subvert the Con-
stitution. To subvert it t—by what act ? By exer-
cising those powers of inquiry and controul for which
it was constituted a House of Commons. The House,
-according to .the Noble Marquis, was to surrender ail
-04 functions -for which it was constituted, 4110

mention, .
al the Most adhereuts—(ffeer, s., and
which bad become it source of ridicule in every clots•
house and ,assembly throughout the kingdom 1—
(Cheer.). That menace, heretofore either dexterously
whispered in the ears of the,Miniltl4lC-;ircles, or nt•
mowed in unofficild io argonaut:,
_trionsly cireui
laced, or thrown out in that House in i sort of con**
nient ambiguity that most cautiously did hot she*
out retreat,' has at length assumed a more palpablsi
form, and been threatened by the Noble Marquis, 11
a tone of pretended confidence, but of real apprehend
sion"—( Hear, hear). To what a coalition was thol
Commons of England reshiced ? The Mouse of Com-
mons had heretofore achieved great and splendid boo
nefits for England, and the world—it had sometimes'
abused those powers it possessed—hut in no previous
part of its history had it ever submitted to such an
indignity upon its character. That House, which had
ventured to change the religion of the State, to de4l
throne Kings, to exclude powerful and hereditary
dynasties, to expel, with reprobation, the most power. I
ful Ministers from their seats, was now reduced to the
degrading condition of prefer' ing the intimations of
the Ministers' pleasure to the conviction of their judg-
ment; because, forsooth, if they did not act upon their
judgments, they were menaced with the resignation
of the Noble Marquis and his Colleagues—(Cheers).
In the lowest abyss of degradation to which the slan-
ders of the most unprincipled calumniator could have
reduced the character of that House, there could be
no condition more revolting than that which the
Noble Marquis had ventured to announce—(Hear).
What was it but stating, that though they (the Minis-
ters) knew the opinions of the majority, yet that ma-
jority dared not to alit upon their conscientious con-
viction ? If it were otherwise, where was the neces-
sity of such an unequivocal declaration ? If they
did not feel certain that the House was opposed to
their determination, no such menace of retreat would
have been avowed. The Noble Marquis made the
avowal because he well knew a great portion of those
who had heretofore supported his administration were
opposed to his policy, while
,he was determined, if
possible, not to give way to their wishes—(Hear, hear).
That was playing a deep game ; the Noble Marquis
was throwing for a great stake. He (Sir James) could
not, however, think so badly of that House--he could
not fancy Them so lost to all sense even of collective
pride,-as to believe that such a degrading menace,
which was itself a proof that all argument was want-
ing, and every other hope of support excluded,would
.drive that majority from their purpose. In the name
of their ancient glory, in consideration of those high
duties which were imposed upon them, and the faith-
ful discharge of which could alone regain for them
the affections of the people, he did implore them to
scout, as became them, that degrading threat ; and
not allow it to be recorded of the present House of
Commons, that it preferred the pleasure of the Minis-
ter to the dictates of their own conscience !—(Hear).—
Was that the return which the faithful supporters of
the Noble Marquis deserved at his hands? Was it
thus that he redeemed his obligations of gratitude to
those who on so many occasions upheld his Adminis-
tration?—(Hear). With what a character would he
send the Representatives of England, at. any future
Election, to meet their constituents 1 They were so
reduced in his estimation, that they were compelled
to listen patiently to language, which in former times,
if addressed to the Reptesentatives of Great Britain,
would have hurled Monarchs from their Thu ones—
(Hear). But the Noble Marquis did not satisfy him-
self with the threat, but avowed it in the most con-
tumelious manner. He has told you that he, the Fo-
reign Secretary, the great pacificator of Europe, the
companion of Emperors and Kings, disdained to go
into the leading-strings of a Committee of the House
of Commons—(Hear). The Noble Marquis did not
condescend to inquire how that Committee was to be
`appointed—(Hear, hear). How could it be appointed
brit by a decision of the majority of that House?—
But what cared the Noble Marquis for the decision
of a House of Commons ?—(Hear). He was too full
of Russian and Prussian maxims to be checked by
'such an interposition—(Hear). He would never con;
sent to be interrogated by a Committee of its appoint-
ment. The House must give up its judgment, or,
dreadful alternative, the tountry lose its Minister !
44 Nec enim levia ant ludicra petttntur
Prasmia, sed Turni de vita et sanguine certant."—(Hear).
But Mark the inconsistency of the Noble Marquis:
nothing he has said could be more abominable, more
unwise, more injurious to the honour of the Execu-
tive Government, or more at variance with the prin-
ciples of the Constitution, than to condemn the Fo-
reign Minister's department to the investigation of a
Committee of that House ; and yet all those very ar-,
rangements, to which he himself had adverted, and
on which he laid such stress, were founded on a Re-
port of a Select Committee, which then usurped the
functions of the Crown, and extended its inquiries'
into every branch of the Foreign Office (Hear, hear).
All these matters were strictly correct and legal in
1815, though in 1822 the Noble Marquis has ven-
tured to say they would be subversive of the Consti-
tution. ,He (Sir James) had now to say a few words
on the subject of that political inflnence which the
Noble Marquis took so much credit for as belonging
to this country. Never was there a period when, ac-
cording to the Noble Marquis, our influence through-
out Europe stood so high, that influence which was the
natural result of all the glories of the qui ntu ple alliance.
The glories of the quintuple alliance ! If by these
glories were meant what was due to the talents of
Military Commanders and the prowess of those armies
that humbled the power of France, he (Sir J. Mackin-
tosh) did not see how that part of e subject could be
brought into the discussion at this day. But, inde-
pendent of military glory, where was the influence of
this country with the Powers of Europe exemplified?
The*Noble Marquis had charged it as a crime on the
Members of his (Sir J. Mackintosh's) side of the
House, that they were enemies of the Holy Alliance.
But in a solemn State Paper the Noble Lord had
I made similar and stronger charges, in a document
I,addrened to our Ministers abroad, in 1821, aping

be
rise
iiPPg3num"beedtbbif Gen- 0.4 94its.". sOfd°rlasn'it and ebhGtilielr'evare:4Ptlit'erfnen)Werit
laken refuge in Geneva; they were demanded b be
given also but had made their escape throughthe oon-
nivance of the Genevese Government.
;;IThano:warasenso
were now perfectly helpless, and knew not wheriettd
bide their heads. If the influence of En
powerful on the Continent, then she was a party WI
al) those nefarious transactions. The Noble Lord
could only disOnnect himself from those proceedings
by unsaying what he had just asserted—(Hear, hear):
The Noble Marquis had talked of particular persons
of large private fortunes, who out of their fortunes
bad expended much in the prosecution of their foreign
Esubasaies, but that was no evidence that could ap..;
ply to the case, for he did not see why many of our •
Ambassadors should not be selecteJ from the same
class of men There never was a time in the history
of this country when the English Nobility were more
anxious to qualify themselves for all situations in which
their talents might be employed for the service of the
country—(Hear, hear).—lnstead of yielding to the
temptations arising from their rank and fortune, they.
studiously applied themselves ro the cultivation of-
their mind's and preparatiian for public business.—
With respect to Florence, he did not see the necessity
of keeping up an expensive establishment in that
petty State, since the death of the last member of
the Pretender's family: The Noble. Alaiquis had al-
luded to the United States of America, and he (Sir
Mackintosh) could not help observing the proud mo-
narchical disdain with which the Noble Marquis look-
ed down upon the economy of that Republic—(Heari
hear, from the Opposition). It might, perhaps, be
fitting language for a courtier, but it was strange lan-
guage to address to a House of Commons—(Near):
The House of Commons was that branch which re-
presents the People—he used the tern People without
any of those qUalifications with which it
was so much
the fashion in these times to qualify it—that House,
therefore, as the Representative of the People was
bound to watch the expenditure of the public Money
appauch as any Republic—(Hear, hear, front the :ill-
tsiderial side). If it was true, as the cheers of the
Noble Marquis seemed to imply, that they were .to
have no Republican' partialities about them, still, to
use the languageof Mr. But ke, he would ask, was it
right that they should have, at the same time, a coati
plaining People and an addressing House of commons?
Notwithstanding the imperial disdain with which the
Noble Marquis looked down upon that great Repub-
lic, they were making daily and pacific conquests
from the desert, and were likely to spread the bless-
ings of liberty over a larger space than despotic power
had ever been able to curse by its visitatious—(Hear,
hear).—He had not misrepiesented the sentiments of
the Noble Marquis. The House understood terms as
well as words—(Hear, hear).—In the progress ()this
speech he had complimented many Gentieuien now
engaged in diplomacy ; that compliment he believed
to be just, if he had no other pi oof than the instances
which that House afforded of men of laige fortune
devoting their time and study to the public business,
some of them without-even an opportunity of serv-
ing friends or providing for dependants. But while
be admitted so much w ith respect to the diplomatists
of this country, he knew encugh of America to wish
That England might be served as welt by her
Ministers abroad as that Republic was by her Mi-
nisters, notwithstanding her economy—(hear, hear).
The Noble Marquis had stated his disinclination to
have men bidding for office ; but he ought not to
be too sum that the increase of allowances was the
best way to prevent the bidding tar place. He surely
was sufficiently versed in political economy to sup-
pose that by increasing the value be w ould diminish
the competition for these appointments; and he pro-
bably was not ignorant that great appointments
abroad were generally repaid by willing services at
home—(Hear, hear).—He was awn e that he had al-
ready trespassed too long on the attention of die
House, upon a subject on which he would not have
troubled them at all, had it not been for the doi-
trines laid down, and the tone adopted by the Noble
Marquis—(llear, hear).
Mr. F. ROBINSON declared that he could not discover in
the speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman who spoke last,
any one expression that could apply to the question before the
House. His Noble Friend was justified in what he had said,
that if the House a Commons no longer gave its conhdeace to
Ministers, they could no longer continue to conduct the affairs
of the country ; and how Cstl snit a declaration be considered
as an insult to the House? lle appealed to those who heard his
Noble Friend's speech, whether there was ever a case stated
which could produce a stronger conviction as to the truth pf the •
statements contained in it ?
Mr. CREEVEY said, lie should detain the House but a few
minutes. It was a most daring statement of the Noble*Lorskto
say, that if the Mime appointed a Committee *of Inquiry he
would not attend it; and that it would be disfiguring the Mo-
natchy to transfer its power to a Committee of that Houser-
-This was the most daring statement ever made in the Howe of
Commons—(Hear,hear).—While there was a famine in Ireland,
sing while distress pervaded all parts of the country, was it not
it to inquire whether our diplomatic missions were properly
filled, and whether they were not too expensive?—(Hear, hear).
Either the House ought to vindicate its character by an assertion'
of its rights, or to adjourn at once, and no longer pretend to
exercise •functions that wete the subject of ridicule and contempt.
Cord Stewan and Lord Burghersh were residing in London,
with the salaries and appointments of Foreign Ministers. He
could not, for his own part, conceive a stronger cue, nor a
grosser insult to that House. than to call such a Committee as
was contemplated by the present motion, a disfigurement of the
Monarchy of England.
Mr. TIERNEY, on the present occasion, could not give a
Anent vote. He should not advert to the various topics of the
Noble Lord, and to whom such a triumphant reply had been
made by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The only question
Ma, could any saving .be made in the public expenditure? The
ease was, that Ministers were so sore from the repeated defeats
they had received, that they had resolved to make what was
called a stand, and a meeting bad been held on that subject. •It
was doubtleas eottstitutiooal for Ministers to resign, whin they
' bad lost the confidence of that House; but to bon out a threat
of that kind, in ordbr to intluenc.e the vote of any Member, was
unconstitutional in the highest degree. It had haw said that he
(Mr. Tierney) bed &gloried to attend the former Committee on
this subject. But Waviest the use of attending-a Cr:antes
whenVaei werclavourea with no useful information b
its routine, more eye.
beeothe
cisarli,
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g tbeiondfare the shird.ciast of
dally after his Majesty hid so .graciessly glow en 430,11.0 at
the walks qt many of his condone. This statanwat Imola
give aht.,„,„h jenegen, was ir-not- that be isk assessiisharit
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owe. the duties of his office. When an Ambisisidoi was hear). which, nun. its Tvetition, had 'ceased to ularm demand had been fnUde by the Austriad Goventenenti
be-s absent from his mission, he had to pay ES a day to even thi most devoted adherents—Wear, hear), and supported by the Aufkisadois of the tither Powell.
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