Star.
London, England, 1831-03-09 00:00:00

REFORM.

The owlet: of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on reform
Ming UFA!,
11r. O'CONNELL rose and said, his object in presenting himself to
the house was for the purpose of giving his most decided and anxious
;support to the measures. (Hear.) He looked upon the plan as large,
I;lteral, and wise. He would go further, and say it was generous.
(hear.) In fact, it was an effectual measure of reform. (Loud cheer-
ing, and cries of Hear from all parts of the house.) If his Majesty's
ministers hatl offered less, the country would have required more. But
if the country r.quireel more than was ofiered, it might rationally expect
to be disappointed. The measure should have his support; and if he
possessed influence elsewhere. that iefluence should be exerted in favour
of the bill. It was well known that he was a radical reformer. It was
well known his opinion was in favour of universal suffrage, and for
short duration of parliament, and vote by ballot. Yet he would not
object to the measore although it embraced none of these principles—it
was liberal without them. The measure would have the effect of prov-
ing experimentally that if no further extension was required, no further
extension was necessary. If it satisfied the country, it would prove
that universal suffrage and vote by ballot were unnecessary. (Hear.)
As a radical reformer, he accepted the measure with all
his heart. (Hear.) He certainly might raise an objection, that
the princip's did not go far enough as regarded Ireland; but he
in:d no doubt the Administration thought they had gone far enough in
that respect, ::al as the measure was of such an advantageous nature
for the Eriti; is community, sorry should he be to offer any opposition.
I t had the cilia of opening all close boroughs ; it gave to all copyhold
proprietors of 10!. a year the same advantages as those possessed of
fieeltoldt fir counties. and never had be heard any cause assigned why
they should not be platrd on an equality. As it related to these counties,
it was a nteasute highly beneficial. An objection had been started to
it, as it related to counties by a right honourable gentleman, by saying
that 2$ counties were to have two additional members, and the privy
council were to have authority to divide the counties, each district of
the county having authority to return two members. It had been said
that this war an unconstitutional proceeding, but he (Mr. O'Connell)
could rest for his life conjecture on what possible ground it could be
called tit constitutional. The privy council in Ireland were employed
in a similar manna, Counties were divided into local districts by bar-
risters of the country, under the authority of the privy council, and all
the litigation that took place was tried according to those divisions, nor had
ary a an ever made a complaint against any such proceedings. The
pity council, too, in Ireland divided parishes, and there had never
t,,r a single complaint against that. Thus the experiment proposed
by the prssent measure was not a novel experiment—if it was, it was a
hainless inc. After all, if the privy council in England acted wrong—
if t: ty meek an unfair division of one county, was it to be supposed
that they would make an unfair division of many counties; and if they
t)('. make an unfair division of two, three, or four counties, was there
not a power in parliament to overrule and check such improper pro-
ceedings ? (Cheers.) Who could suppose that such a base proceeding
on the part of the privy council would be endurable for an hour ?
(llear and cheers.) Was it right to nominate to rotten boroughs? Why
any one who made such a declaration in a Court of law would be driven
out of Court. In Ireland, where the rotten boroughs were paid for, at
the time of the Union, at the rate of 15,0001. a piece, a younger brother
brought his action against his elder brother for a portion of' the
purchase.money of one of those rotten boroughs ; but the Judge before
whom the cause came for trial said, it was an audacious action, and
nonsuited the plaintiff. The same Judge, however, was himself a trus-
tee to a marriage settlement, in which the produce of the sale of the ho.
rough of Tralee was settled on the younger children. No doubt, as a
private gentleman and trustee, Chief Baron O'Grady made the mast of
the borough, but as a Judge, he would not allow any thing so uncon-
stitutional to be brought into a Court of Justice. Yet this is what they

call the eld Constitution. He was sure it could not possibly be, and
that he would only he wasting the time of the House by expatiating
farther on such a subject. In Enkliand it was an unmixed good.. No
one had stated any thing like a solid Objection to it; and he rejoiced
heartily in the view of getting an increased number of constituems, as
wig os • an increased number of county mothers, of whom it Led been
end trely said, they were the least revolutionary of any. The next
poet of the speech of the noble fend opposite related to the boroughs, and
he delighted in the mode in whit% the noble lord had treated those bur.
roughs. He bat/ applied the pruning knife to the rotten boroughs of
this country with a thoroughly masterly hand. lie had eat up, ttn-
springly, root and branch, those rotten, close, and ohnotious bo-
roughs. Airhat had been the complaint of the house, what had been the
complaints of the people of those rotten and close boroughs, and had
that complaint been idle or imaginary ? The people hart complained
of them—the public hal complained of them—the house had com-
plained of diem—they were in direct contradiction to every theory of
our Constitution. Every atom of our constitutional principle was vio-
lated by them. When men talked to him of a new Constitution, he
had to ask them what the old Constitution was ? He would ask whe-
ther the constitution was not that the people should be fairly and pro-
perly represented, and not that the mound of Old Sarum should send
its members into that house. Who could venture to say that Old
Sarum was a constitutional borough ? Theoretical writers, lawyers,
judges, and all denounced the practice adopted in respect of those bo-
roughs. Why should noble lords and gentlemen have a right to nomi-
nate members to sit in that home ? Had they not heard in the course
of this discussion of the boroughs of the Duke of Norfolk—of the
Duke of Newcastle—of the Duke of Devonshire—of the Marquis of
Cleveland—of the Nlarquis of Lansdowne—and of other Nobles—had
the house not heard of their boroughs—of their provinces, and of ad-
mirable tact at finding out young men of genius and talent, and wing-
ing their way about with the olive branch in their hand, until they
found a suitable object on which to bestow their favour. Was this con.
sistent with the constitution of the country 1 What was the first rule
and determination of that house ? Before they had even sat a eiagle
moment in that house, before the King's Speech had been read to them
—(a King, than whom no King that ever sat on any Throne would
ever deserve better of his subjects) that it would be a high infringement
of the tights of the Commons of tile United Kingdom for ens Member
of Parliament, Peer, or Prelate—(loud langhter)—to concern him-
self, or to take any part in the election of a Member to serve in the
Commons House of Parliament—(Hear, hear, hear.) Good Gon, was
this to be sounded into their ears, and were the lands to send their
Members one after the other, in the most open and avowed manner,
Into that house for those close and rotten boroughs ? (Loud cheers.)
But he was told that they were about to commit robbery—that they
were guilty of an unjust seizure of franchises—hut who were the
robbers ?--(I-Lear.) He never heard of a grant of a charter by the
Crown, empowering any one to send Members to Parliament. He
never heard of such a charter. (Hear.) No, the franchises Walt
granted to the people; it was not, then, this Act that seized them, but
this Act laid hold of the "'inflators of them. They bad no right to
question the privileges of the House of Lords, but the Peers had no
right to spoliate the privileges and liberties of the Commons of Eng.'s
land.—(Great applause.) The close boioughs the people understood
perfectly ; the people talked common sense out of doors upon the sub-,
ject of Reform, and that common sense was, You have got our property,
you have 'polluted our liberties, but you shall disgorge them.—(Great
applause.) There was independence, too, in the Members while they
shook off the rotten boroughs. God help those who could crawl into
that house, mind then talk of coming is without stooping. No, they
did not stoop, because they were flown already. He would ask the
Honourable Gentleman, Member for Boroughbridge—(ll tar, hear)—
lie would appeal to him as an honourable man, as a conscientious man,
as a responsible being, could he stand forward and advocate that els-
tan which in the rotten boroughs gave an annual debauchery and
every six years all that bribery, and corruption, and robbery could M-
illet ? Was such a system to stand ; was it to be advocated? Who
was ignorant of it? Who could deny ii out of doors ? Were not the
nomination boroughs equally to he sold ? Was not the price of them
as notorious as stalls at Smithfield ! And was it to be thought that the
educated, independent people of England, awakened by degrees, nut
violently, but rising with the gentleness of a superior being, awakened
with the strength of a giant retieshed--that the people of I:ngland
would not exclaim against them, insisting that the foul shame—the
infernal blot of the small boroughs, and the high atrocity of the rondos.
tion boroughs should be put au end to. He tilt grateful to the Ada& '
nistration that would get rid of both abominations. It was said Tavis.
cock, and Caine, anti Knaresborough, world he retained • to their pro-1
prietors. Of Caine he could speak, because he had presented a pad.
Con from two gentlemen, complaining of an undue election for
that borough, and who would then be the representatives, only
a committee of that house had decided that the right of election
lay in thirty-six burgesses. 'That borough would be thrown open,
and instead of thirty-six electors would have hundreds ; and after
the splendid speech, so full of extensive knowledge, convincing
argument., and glowing eloquence with which the honourable and
learned gentlemen who now represents that borough had supported this
question, and excited the admiration of all who heard him, he was
confident those electors, however Increased in number, would do
themselves the honour of continuing him their representative. (Cheers.)
Prelates were also prohibited from interfering itr the election of meat.
hers of that house, yet the Primate of Ireland hail his nominee amongst
them in the person of the late Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear,
hear.) He came there as the representative of Armagh ; but so little
satisfied were the people of Armagh with the Primate's nominee as
their representative, that the first thing they did on his being appointed,
was to assemble—.Protestants—Presbyterians—Catholics—all united,
and burn the right hon. gentleman in effigy. (haughtier.) The bill
was simple in its provisions. It gave to resident voters the right of
choosing their representatives—and disfranchised non-resident voters
who had disfranchised themselves for every purpose but corruption.
(Hear, hear.) The member for Aldborough had said Tavistock had but
4,005 inhabitants and Brighton had 24.000, and the bill gave Tavistock
two members and Brighton one. This was a fallacy—the bill gave
Tavistock nothing ; but it gave a great boon to Brighton. (Hear,
hear.) He was wrong in saying it gave Tavistock nothing, in-
stead of 32 electors, it would have 1,000. (Hear, hear.) Those who
cried out for equality would give the some number of members to Rut.
landshire as to Lancashire.-.-(Hear.) They would give the same num.
her to Garton as to Westminster.—(Cheers.) The. cry of corporation
robbery that was raised, made hint look into the case, and he found
that of the boroughs that were to be disfranchised, only sixteen were
corporations at all.—(Hear, hear.) The opponents of the measure said li
the parliament had not aright to disfranchise those boroughs—he thar ked
them for that argument, anti hoped they would support him when he
brought forward the Repeal of the Union.—(Hear, hear.) The par-
liament, on that occasion, disfranchised a hundred boroughs. The
member for Tamworth said, disfranchisement was atrocious—and the
member for Yorkshire said it was iniquitous; he hoped they would
both vote for the Repeal of the Union, though, if he had no better ar-
gument than theirs, he could not hope to succeed. But if Tavistock
or any other borough was to be guilty of corruption when there was a
reformed parliament, could it be doubted that justice would speedily be
executed.—(Hear, hear.) lie approved of the measure altogether, as
it regarded England, and as it regarded Scotland—it required no se.
cond sight to see that it must be highly beneficial to that country. The
120,000 inhabitants of Edinburgh would now send their own represen-
tative, instead of having one sent for them by thirty three individuals,
who put more money into his pocket for doing nothing than if he was
sent by the whole 120,004—(Great laughter.) The Scotch members
for counties were returned by elector* who had no interest in the land.
A noble lord who represented Sunderland, and very naturally opposed
the present bill, was returned by 24 electors, members of his own fa-
mily. The bill would give to all Scotchmen what so few now pos-
sessed, the right of choosing their own representatives. It was said Scot-
land prospered under the present system. Scotland prospered notwith-
standing the present system. It prospered by its connection with Fog.
land, which before the American revolution had long possessed the freest
institutions of any country in the world. Ile should now come to Ireland.
He was sorry to see that the malign influence that presided over the af.
fairs of Ireland had found its way into this bill. He did not envy Eng-
land or Scotland, he rejoiced at every advantage they gained. He had
seen two things in that house respecting Ireland : one was that when-
ever her poverty and distress were mentioned there was anxious deem
expressed to relieve it ; the other was, that when the rights and liberties
of her people were in question, the house did not manifest the same
sympathy. AU he claimed for Ireland was the benefit of the principle
of the Bilk The capital of England had the number of its represents.
tives doubled—the capital of Scotland had the number of its represen-
tatives doubled—the capital of Ireland had no addition. Dublin con-
tained one-fourth of the population of London, and ought to have one.
fourth:of the Representatives—as London would have sixteen, Dublin
ought to have four. (Hear.) Many of the English counties that re-
ceived an addition of two Members had fewer inhabitants than the cour.-
ties of Cork, Antrim, Down, Galway, Mayo, Tipperary and Kerry.
He respectfully claimed another Member for each of these counties.—
He would also respectfully claim another Member for the city of Kil-
kenny, which, before the Union had four hlembers--now but one; and
also a second Member for the town of Galway. He was not proposing
to enter into a contract—he was ready to support the Bill in its present
state ; but wished the case of Ireland to be reconsidered.—(Hear, hear.
hear.) In Antrim sixty thousand forty-shilling freeholders were dis-
franchised when the Catholic relief hill was passed, almost all Protes- I
taLta. The Catholic nobility and gentry, lawyers, and merchants, then
in London, met and petitioned Parliament not to disfranchise the Pro-,
testant freeholders, but the Catholics only. (Hear, hear.) The free.'
hold, he thought, should at least be lowered from ten pounds to six
pounds. There were nineteen nomination boroughs in Ireland which'
the bill would open. Portarlington was one of them. Lord Portarling-
ton brought it to the stock market. He wanted forty thousand pounds
or fifty thousand pounds. Mr. Ricardo lent the money, on good secu-
rity, and sat for the borough as part of the contract. He thought ha
the small boroughs the rate of rent of voters should be lowered to five
pounds; that was necessary, to make the franchise sufficiently exten-
sive. (Herr, hear, and cheers.) It was unworthy the honourable mew.
ber for Drogheda to declare in his place on the previous evening that
the peoposed extension of the franchise in particular boroughs in Ireland
would transfer the influence entirely' from the hands of the Protestant to
that of the Catholic interest. It would do no such thing—the

idea was puerile mad r npngternue : but it would break down
all the long and closely cemented trammels and monopolies
which bad originated with Cromwell, and Fad been handed
down to his successors. Were 'immutable memhers aware of the
origin of many of these boroughs ? Were they ignorant that King
James the First. in one day, created forty boroughs, not legislating on
the necessity of these institutions, but solely because that he had a de.
' sign upon two provinces ; and to complete his purpose, in several
places he could scarcely find as many burgesses as would give a colour
to his pretence for founding a borough. And these are the venerable
institutions that we arc told so roach about. (Hear, hear, and lungliter.)
The measure will be a hoon of magnitude to Ireland, even although
that it brings not with it ample justice to her claims. (Hear, hear.)—
Bed:this is the treatment the most consonant to the purposes of those
hon. gentlemen who are so very solicitous to convert the people from
the errors ant! superstition, as they arc pleased to term them, of Pa-
pistry. (The honourable member uttered this last sentence with a pe- ,
culla strain of irony.) Those hon. gentlemen who had arrayed them.'
selves against the measure of the noble lord, were not, in fact, strug-
gling
for their political Menial., but they were contending for their '
property-(loud cries of hear, hear,) the property that they took to',
market sold for gain. They had seized the people's right of'',
franchise, and now, when the measure was promised that would enforce'
the first restitution of those rights, they then turn upon the noble lord
opposite, and taunt hint, and those who would support him, with de-
sognations ; they call them thieves and tobbers. The hon. member re.'
gretted that the hon. member fur Oxford should have expressed the
' hostile opinion that he had done towards the measure, and the view that
hn had taken of the subject. There had been times when the Church
hail assisted the State, and bad weighed conscientiously the interests of
the people. The honourable member could call to mind the record of
several illustrious names, and many magnanimous acts that had thus
emanated ; and he regretted to see now, in these (lays, that so much
prostration of sentiment should envelope one of the most advancing and
opulent universities in Europe. (Hear, hear.) But there had been no
argument adduced against the measure by the opposition ; they had
had nothing but chaff. (Hear, hear.) He would repeat it, nothing hut
chaff. (Laughter.) They had been told that the rotten boroughs
afforded a desirable facility for the admission of men of talent into the
house, and many names had in exultation been cited in confirm,-
don of this plea. The name of Mr. Canning had been quoted in
uiumpli as one, and much stress was placed on him, because lie ban
once entertained an opinion that the Catholics should have emancipa-
tion ; hut ict those who made this their boast recollect, that with all
this liberality on the one hand, that he hail been equally illiberal in his
opposition to the rights of the Presbyterians. (Cheers.) Mr. Burle
arm another name that had been quoted, and had been received with
cheer. He came into the house on pure principles, but he soon swayed
round, and became espousal to the high Toty principles, and was ex.
travagantly rewarded for his vacillating services. lie (Mr. O'C.) was
will assured that if the opposition would give hack to the people the
pension which had been pocketed by Mr. Burke, they would cheerfully
give them a receip in full for all his splendid talents and abilities—.
His epitaph was written long before his death :
" Here lies our good Edmund, whose genius was such,
We scarcely can praise it, or blame is, too much;
Who, born for the universe, narrow'd his mind,
And to party gave up what was meant for mankind."
(Cheers.) They had been told of all these men of talent coming'
in through the rotten borough system ; hut he would auk, would their
talents have been lets resplendent had they never been baptized at the'
foot of the rotten boroughmongery —(a laugh); and he would ask the '
opposition also if there were not many drowsy-beaded fools that hail
come into the house in the same way. The matter reminded hint of
the stars that came from the London Theatres to the country—all the
minor characters were over looked in the exhibition, and only the Hamlet
of tile stet was kept in view ; the Horatio and the Lames, and all the
others were shaded in oblivion. It had been urged too by the opposition,
that the present system worked well—they told them that it worked ,
well, and why disturb it? Let them ask the distressed agriculturists.
anti see if they would say it worked well. Let them ask some of their'
ancient sires, who were still in life, and had lived in better times in the',
counuy, and could mark the decline; let them ask theme, and sec if
they would say it worked well. Let them go into the county gaols,
and ask the starving wretches, convicted of poaching, and now suffer-
ing from the severity of the game laws that had emanated from the
system, let them ask these men and see if they would say it had worked
well. In the year 1823 a motion was brought before the house for
economy and retrenchment ; and of one class of rotten boroughs, 20
in number, nineteen of the representatives were opposed to the motion
of rettenchment, and one for it. Of another class of boroughs, not
quite so much on the close system. thirty-three in number, twelve were
for retrenchment ; of forty-four representatives.. elected on the more po-1
pular symeno, thirty-sik were for retrenchment, and only eight against'
it. The honourable member made a similar brief analysis of the divi-
sion that had taken place on the Walcheren expedition. for which not'
one shilling he said would have been voted had the rotten borough ays.
tent not been in existence. This was what was called working well.
There existed a debt of B.io millions hanging round the country—that
was the sum usually given up, but when everything was properly taken
into account, it would be found that the real debt of the country
was 11100 millions, and that was called working well. They had been
told thee this country prospered, but how hail it tempered ?—whatever
prosperity it could boast, it owed entirely to its acquisitions in the
bountiful gifts of nature; it had prospered from the progress of its
intelligence, from its navigable rivers, its mines and its facilities for
trade, and the application of industry, these were the sources irons
whence had sprung its internal prosperity, and which had rendered it
formidable to its enemies abroad; but see what a mess had the system
made of till these advantages. Were England placed in a situation at
this moment such as the devoted Poles are now placed, opposed to
Russia, there would not be an Englishman whose blood would not be
roused to indignation at his fate, but English feeling would in similar
circumstances be materially crippled—it was crushed with the weight of
this 1000 millions of debt—the consequences of the boroughmongering
system. (Hear, hear.) It had worked well indeed for the aristocracy
—for Solomon in all his glory was not so fair as they—(a laugh,)
they had become bishops and dignitaries of every description, and the
expense of their well-being had brought about the debt of 1000 mil.
lions. (Hear, hear.) The honourable member had once intended
to have said a word more to the house, and to ask the Opposition W
they would say that the system worked well for Ireland ? Could they
walk the streets, there and encounter the miserable objects, the squalid
countenances, the famine that existed, the crowded cellars and misera-
ble hovels wherein reigned starvation and despair ; would they look at
these and say that the system had worked well for Ireland ? But he
would not pursue that subject farther, nor would he enter on it as re-
garded Scotland. The measure be would support ; and to the noble
lord who had proposed the measure, and to his Majesty's Ministry, he
would say that he would call upon them in the name of that Gott of
Charity whotu they all honoured and cherished, to do this great act to
the people of Ireland and ltkutland, and they would inherit the rich
recompence of the nation's gratitude. The hon. member sat down
amidst immense cheering.
Mr. ATTWOOD, as well as we could understand, amidst the noise
that succeeded the lut speech, expressed his surprise at the cheers that
had just subsided, and which had been reiterated front the i inistetial
Benches, at the expression of sentiment from the Hon. Member (Mr.
O'Connell) who had so recently placed !in danger the peace of the
neighbouring country. (Hear.) The lion. Member opposed the
measure chiefly on the ground that as numbers had been made the data
of the measure, that the division of representatives was not prom-
! tionate ; and that as the measure hail been founded on the alleged call
' of the people under excitement, that the same reason might be again
assigned in future, so that this could not be a final messute. He con.
tended that an assembly purely democratic and popular, had never
existed consistently with the security of the hereditary branches of the
Legislature.—(Cheers.) This was exemplified at Paris at the present
day, where the Deputies, on a measure of theirs being rejected by the
Peers, invariably began a discussion as to the utility of an upper house.
(Cheers.) He delineated the measure as destructive in the person of
the borough proprietor and to the rightsof property. (Cheers.) It was
a revolutionary measure—(checre)—an innovation fraught with calm.
itics, and incompatible with real liberty.—(Great cheering.)
Sir JAM ES DRAMAS' said, that he should not have trespassed
upon the house after the arguments of his noble and right honourable
friend, had he not been personally alluded to in the course of the debate.
and were he not unwilling to allow a question of such magnitude and
importance to pass by without offering very shortly his opinions on the
subject. In the first place, he should state that he disclaimed the Int.
putation of a tight honourable baronet, that ministers sought to shrink
from the responsibility of bringing forward the present measure, and to
cast some shone of that responsibility on their predecessors. Certainly
he had his own private opinion as to the anti-reform policy pursued in

the cares of Penryn and East Rctford ; but being sincerely attached to
a reform, not slight and inefficient,' but real, searching, and substan-
tial—(hear, bear , hear)—he did not regret the course then pursued._
But, assuredly, the charge of shrinking from responsibility came with a
bad grace from the right honourable baronet, who, abandoning the high
ground taken by a noble duke--that the present system was so per•
feet that it could not enter into the heart of man to conceive any
thing so good—had distinctly stated that some measure of reform
was necessary, a measure which he would not bring forward on his
own responsibility as a minister, but to which, on being proposed
on the responsibility of some other minister—(cheen)—he should,
in his individual capacity, be willing to give a reluctant:consent ; and
and it was from that right hon. baronet that came the charge:of
shrinking from responsibility. There was one responsibility Which
he (Sir J. Graham) would never have chosen to incur. He would
never have consented to take a share in the administration for a single
day without a distinct understanding that, with the united efforts of
the Cabinet, a comprehensive reform should be speedily proposed.._
That responsibility, indeed, he, and his colleagues, left to the gentle-
men opposite. The Government, he proceeded, considering it loom.
silent with their parliamentary duties to seek by half measures.
what Mr. Burke would have called miserable expedients, to avert the
just expectations of the people, and considering that the delaying of a,
just and necessary concession would only cause the &inmate to rise io

their demands and proceed from just to unjust claims ; the government
be said, acting on these grounds, had thought it their duty to prstaen.'
substantial measure, one which would not be a mere redeonrion of thei;
pledge, luntent subsequently learnt that mere than a mete redemption
was demanded by the public necessity ; and, finally, by propene
it speedily, to assure a reform moderate and safe. The prewns
stnerwould, he was convinced, satisfy all moderate Well. (a,.
tempted laughter on the opposition benches.) It would not mine
violent ultra Tories, but in his conscience he believeel that it woeia
satisfy the moderate of all classes. At all events it would remote
lust grounds of complaint, and putting the Government 00 .V. 11111,1
round, would enable them to resist all demands inconsistent with
neonarchy, and the institutions of the country. He must adroit t.,
personal remarks on him (Sir J. Graham). which a risen
opposite had made with some asperity, more especially with 1. vett u,
the motion relating to the Privy Council, which had been termed one
the grounds of the great dissatisfaction in the country. lie did not veal
to shrink for a moment tram any responsibility which alight ettace
that motion. His conduct on that Fu tIiCCI was bethrc the house and OW
public. He had amused the ministry of want of economy in the higher de.
partments, and to support his assertion, lie was obliged to move tin a It.
turn relating to the Privy Councillors, to show that severe! held mon
titan one lucrative office. The right hon. member for Armagh had
though. fit to propose as an amendment, a general return t.f all nifine.
with salaries above 1.0001. and the result was the produetion of Coos.
papers which heel camel" such an astounding effect. 11' reepeet t
his own salary, on which the right honourable gentleman had utad •
remark rather unworthy of himself, more especially as he was a mralb,r
of the committee on the officers' Whales, he should merely say, that e
the homer were not satisfied with the determination of that coturoies.
lie (Sir J. Graham) should not defend his salary with the !en:renal
with which the superannuationa of the two sons of cabinet ministers had
been defended Iva year. (Hear.) But he willingly turned front thi,
subject to the question more immediately before the house. A risir
hon, gentleman opposite had contended that the measure tended to dr.
prive of their franchise individuals of the lower classes, who veer.
cised that franchise advantageously to the country. Now, It was
the opinion of Mr. Fox, that the best system of represen.ation les
that which called into activity the greatest number of persons whole
eircumetances rendered independent and intelligent ; and the
most defective, that which called into activity persons whom dint
condition reacted dependant and incapable of deliberating. (Hear.,
With respect to the righteof dealing with the franchises,he shoultiquot.
the speech of the right honourable gentleman on the Pentyn questions,
which he n looked on the elective fiat chaise as a great public trust.
held for the benefit of the people, whu had the power of withdrawing i:
' front those who had violated their trust." The right hug. gentlentee
made the power depend on a violation of the trust. lie admitted the;
that escape existed with respect to Penryn, but where was it with res.
pcct to the forty shilling freeholders, when the Clare election led
proved to be emancipated from thialdoiti and corruption. The tiger
honourable gentleman had also quoted en that occasion the opinion 4.1
Loud Bacon as to the advantages of removing the elective franchise
from the multitude, who were dependant or led by faction, to those
classes who paid the taxes, and were more independent and intelligent.
The question as to chartered rights had been disallowed even by Mr.
Burke; and be maintained thas it was quite clear that the parliament
had the power to dispose of the chartered rights, as far as the franchise
was concerned, as may be deemed necessary for the public benefit.—
He thought the time fur dealing with thou as was now reopened had
arrived. With respect to the calculations of the hon. member set
Altieborough (mlr. Cruker), he had to remark that 2G boroughs, hay.
ins tinder 1,000 inhabitants, returned 30 membets--ball the number
elected for Ireland, and more than all Scotland was allowed to return—
(Hear. bear.) There were 115 boroughs in England returning mem-
bers. having most limited population in each. That was a state of re-
presentation that might be most congenial to hon. members opposite
(Mr. ('rokcr and Sir C. 'Wetherell), but was that the repnsereation
cantempleted by the constitution ? Property would still have its In-
fluence ; but those lion. members had almost gone the length of sayieg.
that every rich, or very rich man, ought to have a member in that
house. The, was not a view of what ought to be the representation,
that he imagined would be adopted any where except in the, house.—
Did not such facts tonne that tile representation Rapine' correction ?
But take the matter in another point of view. There were 111 peer.
'ant, commoners who returned to that house 227 members—more than
half the number (421) sent by cities, towns, &c. in England._
There was a still more conspicuous fact. He would not menthe'
names—they were however capable of proof at the bar ; 16 Peers
returned to that hewn" 70 members. (Loud cries of hear, hear, hear.)
Now, was the representation to be that which was identified with, and
[ expressed the stotiments and interests of the country ; or ought it
to be a representation t !largely iniegled with nominees? If that WM.
the Constitution, he had not so read it. Such' representatives were
[ accountable to none ; they had no constituents ; they owed no dun
[ to them ; they did not look to the people. (Cries of hear, espe.
cially front the opposition benches.) There was no impelling in-
fluence, except that of honour, with such members. (Hear.) Ant!
that brought him to what he deemed one of the foulest blots in the
state a the representation. Such was the notion of honour towards
the borough proprietor, that if his dictate could not be attended to,
the seat was intinediately resigned. (Hear, hear.) But where the
people were concerned, there was no such high sense of honour,
no proffer of resignation if the promises as regarded voting could not
be kept. Therefore he approved of the measure, considering that it
would give a salutary effect to the influence of the people ; that it
would be mere likely to make the house an express image of the opi-
nions and feelings of the people. Complaint had been made as to the
retention of some borough% and the rejection of others. In connecting
the evil in the representation, it was requisite to draw the Hoe some.
where. Therefore, after examination, the plan had been proposed
regarding the boroughs under 2,000 inhabitants, and those between
2,000 and 4,000 inhabitants. It had been asked who drew the line.
It was sufficient to answer, that the measure was that of the ministers,
and therefore that the ministers had drawn the line. As it wes their act,
if it could be shown that they framed a plus for the purpose of retaining
or protecting unfair influence, his only reply would be this:—that the
ministers bad thereby shown that they were not ooly unfit to hold office,
but to have seats in that house, or to mix in the society of gentle-
men. (Hear, hear.) Reference, however, to the list of boroughs would
show that they could tot have been actuated by any such tine oney
motive. Caine, Knaresborough, and Tavistock, had been particu.
larly mentioned, as if favouritism had been extended to those bo-
roughs. The line had been drawn at 2,000 population, which was
taken as the test--a principle recognised by Mr. Pitt, in his first Reform
Bill, and at the Union. Now, what was the fact ? If the line had been
drawn so as to exclude Caine, that would have excluded 11 other bo-
roughs, because there was that number that had population less than
Caine. If Knaresborough had been the standard, then there would
have been twenty-three more boroughs disfranchised than were now to
be disfranchised, because there was that 'mother returning Members
with a population lower than that of Knaresborough. Again, if the
standard were Tavistock, then there would have been twenty.lite
other boroughs reduced, because there was that number with popals-
non below the amount of population. Thus had the ministers, after
having ("lawn the line, struck at those three boroughs, the plan would
have disfranchised twenty-five other boroughs, because they were below.
the amount of the population of such boroughs. The plan of the nu.
nieters was to effect the requisite correction of the representation with
the least possible disfranchisement. That they considered they had ac-
complished. In reply to another argument, as to the amount of thee
who contributed to the taxes, it appeared that in the sixty boroughs
which were to be disfranchised, there were 1470 holm% rated at 101.
sad upwards. Now, in Sheffield, unrepresented Sheffield alone, there
were 155 G houses, rated at 101. and upwards, being some one hundred
more than were rated in the whole of the said sixty boroughs.--
Again, in the 47 other boroughs, coming within the scale that regarded
boroughs having above 2,000, and under 4,000 inhabitants, there were
6,323 houses rated at 101. and upwards ; now in Mary-la-bonne parish
Caine, there were 10,421 houses rated at 101. and upwards, being one.
third more than the number of houses in the said 47 boeoughs. (Hear.)
It was charged that the ministers had caused agitation. The truth
was, they were ready to satisfy all just claims—hut they was
equally ready to resist whatever was unjust and unreasonable.—
(Hear, hear, hear) They considered that it would be prudent and
safe to make these concessions. ilbstinate resistance to just demands
had too often ended in humiliating concessions. Acting on that Iniowe
fact, they had founded this measure—not overlooking the signs of the
times, and not allowing themselves to be overborne by them, the Sims-
ters had felt it to be their duty towards the country to bring forward the
maneure.—(Cheers.)
Sir it. PEEL was sure the house would not be surprised at the
anxiety he felt, after what had fallen from the right hon. baronet w-
ake, to explain. He knew he had no right to say a single word in re•
ply, for he had been heard with great indulgence and at great length on
a former evening, and he had also contributed his share to the debate et
that night. The right hon. baronet had accused him of personal
perity. He trusted he was not generally open to such a charge; bat ;the
question in these matters was, who was the that to introduce crimple.
tory expressions? The right hon. baronet had accused him of being
enamoured of potwalloppers. Now he had never said that he was
enamoured of potwalloppers, and if the option lay between 101. free•
holders and potwalloppers, be might perhaps prefer the 101. voters;
but be objected to the disfranchisement of the potwalloppers and the
scot-aid-lot voters, because that would destroy the existing links be-
tween the lower and the higher ranks. The right hon. baronet had al-
luded to him as being inclined to obstruct the Government, but he
could 0040 Te the right bon. barest that it would be impossible tae
him to take any pan in any dams se obstruct the Government. Ht
considered himself to have as moth right to act on his own convicuee
what would be the result of the rejection of the present measure as the
hon. gentlemen opposite did viten they opposed the proposition of IN
noble lord (Blandford) last yew, and now showed no disposition to
accede to the wishes of the petitioners to that house, with regard to she
ballot.
Mr. T. LiritOli mid, it might be missed, from the language of
the right honourable baronet (Sir James Graham,) who bed stilted that
we of the ratases kissing the room mason balms the house was
likiltenw It phi" TM& Ile -and bb bed mods to their gove-
all4lll4loo imams, dtb:dtillibtg, sad 10131"srchrequired4 aNynlgedlagned had

ministry to propose a searching measure of reform. But lie (Mr.
few) helieved.from statements 'mole in another plaee,that his 'Majesty
heal e'othing to do with the origin of the measure, which had emanated
.I,ly from the ministers. He, however, gave them the credit of hav
wish to subvert the constitution. He would not discuss the
',,e; tem whether the elective franchise ought to be considered purely
:public trust ; but if it were 30 considered, the power of that house
with the franchise was also a public wow, which should be
mot ceutiottsly exercised. (Hear, hear.) Was the proposed measure
L
e, table to the constitution ? If not, it should be regarded
with the
Jeireet jealousy by the house. Now he called the attention of hon.
orelentee to that part of the measure which went to the disfranchise.
of the. boroughs. By the constitution, that house was composed
knights, burgesses. and citizens ; and he contended that it was not
l ecordiee to the principles of the constitution to disturb that balance.
*Besides:
if the balance in that house were destroyed, the next step
would be to &tern), the balance of the whole legislator—(hear)—and
thee the proposed innovation would lead to the annihilation of the
'levee of Lords. We understood the honourable gentleman to say,
that it cerritption existed, there were already existing legal means to
remove it, without having recourse to the proposed measure, and die-
tuthing the shale system of the constitution.—{The hon. gentleman
continued to address the house for some time, but the hoarseness with
which he etas afflicted, and the noise in the house, which induced the
epee •o several dines to obtain silence, prevented us from hearing any
•
etox of his oh:ere-I'o°ml
Sir J. YOIIKE said he owed it in gratitude to the house, for per.
etteine him to address them after having been occupied for six nights
is discueeitig the important measure before them, to be as brief as pos-
sible in stating a few objections to it. He felt that it required no small
%ere to rise atter the hoe. and learned member for Waterford, who said
71e represented 7,(100,01)0 of stout able.hodied Irishmen, (a laugh), and
the first Lord of the Admiralty, whom lie might consider his coin.
Ile had always possessed a certain portion of modest
oettranec, hut undo existing circumstances he certainly felt consider-
able difficelty in addressing the Commons of England. He could
not admit that the house ought not to be considered the sepresen.
wives of the people of England, when no longer ago than at the
.ettlenient of King William, in the preamble to the Bill of
Rights, they were declared to be the full and free representatives
af the people of England. (Hear, hear, hear.) After having had
a seat in the house for 40 years, he should not like to part with it, he
could not consent to commit parliamentary suicide, by cutting his par.
liamentatty throat. (A laugh.) Ministers had undertaken to guide the
thin) of the state in times of considerable difficulty, and up to the pre- ,
sent period he had been inclined to give them his support. They had
eche) with zeal and ability, and he was satisfied that they had the good
of the country at heart. The measure before the house, however, was
of such a nature as prevented him from giving it his support. It was
singular that a Whig Administration framed the Bill of Rights which
declared the House of Commons to be the true representatives of the
people, and it was a Whir Administration which now proposed to re-
model the house—he would nut say to revolutionize it. (Hear, hear.)
That there were defects in the presene state of the representation he
tvas not prepared to deny. He thought it highly unfit that
:tee or six peers, who had representatives in the House of
Cenanons, should, by combining together, have it in their
power to exercise an undue influence over the Government
tau, hear) ; but he could never consent to disfranchise sixty boroughs,
hee..use they did not happen to full within the noble paymaster's line of
march. (A laugh.) The honourable member for Wareham had stated
the other night, that if he had had only nine month's warning, he would
have undertaken to supply the deficiency of population in his borough.
(A laugh) Ile believed that the borough which he represented would
net come within the line of march. and although he did not possess the
same Malthusian power as the honourable member for Wareham—.(a
iaugh)—though he was not gifted in the same extraordinary way, yet he
:led his worthy colleague would have done their best to enable their con.
stituents to send representatives to Parliament. (Great laughter.)—
It was an awkward thing that some doubts were entertained as ta the im-
partiality of tile present measure. He did not wish to accuse ministers of
partiality, but it had got abroad that there was a little leaning towards the
borough of Tavistock. He hoped that it was not so, but such an opinion
was entertained. The hon. member for Preston had on a former even.
big, taken offence at some observations which he had-made, and applied
to diem the designation of bilge water. He (Sir J. Yorke) had lately
itheereed that technical naval language was often resorted to. It was
introduced into the very best and genteelesi society. Perhaps this was
oe leg to our having a naval King. In parliamentary tactics it was now
quite common to talk of throwing a member's arguments overboard.—
Nothing could be more completely allied to Davy Jones's Locker than
that. Adopting the same phraseology, lie might be allowed to say of
the ship launched by the noble lord opposite (Lord John Russell,) that
it was a clumsy-built vessel, with such amazing large bows in front,
and such a clumsy run aft, that the first time she should put to sea, she
would tun bump ashore. The First Lord of the Admiralty had illus-
trated his arguments by some nautical allusions. His language I
might be bilge-water, but it did not stink in the nostrils. The
right lion, baronet, however. had not been very successful, for he not
only upset his vessel. but nearly capsised his argument. (Hear, and
laughter.) He supposed that in consequence of the right hon. baronet
presiding at a naval board, and having none but naval men about him,
he thought that he might launch his little bark, freighted with his cargo
of nautical knowledge. Ile begged the right hon. baronet to rememe
bet, that the vessel might be upset by a single pull of the fall more
than was necessary. About half a century ago the Royal George, at
Shithead, went down from this cause. He trusted that the good ship
William the Fourth would not be upset in the same manner. (Hear,
hear.) He concluded by stating, that he would vote against the measure.
Mr. BETHELL said, that the hon. member for Boroughbridge
hail called upon those members who had numerous constituents to
tree torward boldly and express their opinions with respect to the measure
under consideration, and said that unless they should do so, they would be
unworthy the confidence their constituents placed in them. He assented
wily to that proposition, but he was called upon to address the house by
a still more powerful motive— namely, the great number of petitions
;inlet' had been sent to the house from his constituents. It had been
said. that the cry for reform which had been raised by the people upon
the present occasion had been produced by recent events which had oc-
eurreel non the continent. He. appealed to his noble colleague (Lord
Merpeth) whether the desire fur reform had not been expressed in York-
shire before those events had occurred. The demand for reform had
been produced by the conduct of that house. When the house refused
to transfer the Irani:Mee of East Retford to Birmingham, they dee
%noted all the hopes and confidence which the country had up to that
meennt repesed in them. Could it be wondered at that a strong feel-
ing it: favour of refotni should exist in a county like Yorkshire, which
was teeming with population, with wealth, and intellect ? In the
coarse of the present discussion reference had frequently been made
to the period or the [evolution ; but he would ask, did the present
wealth and population of the country exist at the period of the revolu-
tion ? Did the present degree of knowledge exist ? Was there the same
intense attention paid to every public debate ? Were the means of
etitentunication so generally established ? In all those particulars no
patella would hold between the period of the revolution and the present
time. At the period of the revolution the great body of the people and
the gentry were opposed to the arrangements which were then made.—
.1: the present moment the feeling which existed in favour of reform
wets not confirm] to the lower classes, but pervaded all the middle class,
which was the best and most intelligent portion of the community.—
Olear. hear.) In his opinion the house had loot the confidence of
glue OUJIIFYI and however pure the motives of its members might
be —hosterer they might be prepared to give up their time and
their labour to the setvice of the country—yet he thought it
right to state, that they were not looked to with that degree of
tmndtlenot vine!' would alone enable them to do their duty. But
though he was prepared to go a great war in remedying this evil, still he
wished that that great measure row before the house had been pro-
duced with more caution. (Loud cheers from the opposition.) He
could not but know, that in dealing with a question in a hick such vast
interests were involved, they ought to proceed with great caution, and he
eould not but see and feel deeply, nett however ill the system worked
in regard to the public welfare, still, when a great and untried change
was about to he introduced, like that now before the house. it might be
fellowed by consequences which the moat clear-sighted men could not
eireeee. (Cheers Icon) the opposition.) He admitted that there might
instances too great and too palpable of that influence which was cxer.
:'seal by certain persons in that house; and when that influence was
;oared in the hands of individuals who were vas: proprietors, it might in
a nicely poised question. turn the scale, and even bias government ; anti
tet ass prepared to ase the pruning knife, but no: the axe. (Cheers
:c tin the opposition.) He did not suppose that noble families would
te: had their way into that home. by fence of rank and character; nor
"as lit afraid that persons in the humble ranks of life, who were en.
towed with gnat abilities, would not be able, by their own buoyancy,
w tied their proper places: but he wished to learn whether the measure
?-IQ, in its present shape, be carried into effect, without affecting a
le,ly of gentlemen of talent and knowledge,—petsons connected with
etmanufacturing and mercantile interests, who could now readily find
their way into the house. But how were such men, who might be well
eaten in a metropolis, to make their character known in a borough ?
there were able men, too, who shrunk from publicity. He was not
;et. convinced that even the government itself—he meant the means te-
emed for the conduct of it—might not be materially diminished if this
assure were carried into execution to the extent which was proposed:
;lea, hear.) 'lite house must be prepared to legislate not merely
tof du sunshine but for the storm and the tempest (hear) ;
inj great and wise measures might be introduced, for which the coun-
ey might be highly indebted to the minister who brought it forward,
at that minister might not dare to present himself as a candidate for a
Alter place, evens euivereity which lie adorned in his youth, and ho.
'wired in his manhood ; and the King's Government might be left
t tbo tan important officer in that house. These were serious objet.
teen in his mind to the measure. He admitted, and would join in any
Sap to break down and diminish, that influence which was so odious
IFeW ed so noxious to the public welfare. He was not one of those who'
that the resumption of trusts granted for the public benefit, if they
no longer produced that benefit, although the trustees might not be cor.
9:.,was unjust : he held that the public had a right to resume them,
no act of robbery was committed. Under these circumstances,
va' Prepared to vote fur every stage of the bill till it carman .the
..01 I

committee. There such modifications might be introduced as might re-
move his objections; but he despaired of their being removed to that
degree that wool' justify him in giving it his support. In such a case
he should nu et l.'s constituents with the assurance of having performed
his duty. (Hear.)

Mr. PRA FD said, that after six nights of protracted debate on
this Sieben, lie should not have risen but for the consideration that
although men of long standing in the house, of known character and in.
tegrhy, might remain silent on this subject without any degree of mis-
trust or misinterpretation, a young man like himself, without those ad.
vantages, could not safely pursue such a course. This was a question
on which the peace, not only of England, but of Europe might de-
peed. (Hear, hear.) There was one consideration which appeared to
him very important, in which this question differed from any other,
which was, that whatever error in principle might be contained in
this measure would be perpetuated, and the legislature would be
precluded from after revision. (Hear.) He would first look to the
constitution we had, before he would consider the new constitution that
was to be given to us. He believed there never was a deliberative body
better entitled to the gratitude of the country over whose destinies they
were called upon to preside, than that house. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Probably no man of ordinary habits bed not been, at one time
of his life, a Parliamentary reformer: but these were only the habit'
of youth: the refection of manhoood led us to contrast the theoretical
defects with the result of the system. In parliamentary reform, it was
aeknowedged by the other side to be difficult to show how a large pot.
tion of talent, rank, and opulence, could gain admittance into that
house. The hon. and learned member for Caine had spoken of lucky
accidents, and had said that if we took 100 of the tallest men, some
might prove men of talent. He (Mr. Praed) would say, that if this
system had gone on for a long series of years, and the same effects had
regularly and unifonnally arisen, he should be disposed to remain as
we were. The hon. and learned gent. said, that even under a despotic
government a people might be well governed ; if so, he should say, he
would not change iris despotic government for the hon. member's con-
stitutional goverment. (Hear, on both sides.) His (Mr. Praed's)
objections to this measure were so many and strong, that he
despaired of their removal in committee. (Hear, hear, hear.) His
first objection was to the general plan of the bill, which includ-
ed a number of monstrous anomalies. Whilst it was said that mem-
bers were to be returned by population, and that votes were to be
governed by property, it was clear that there would be many instances
of capital towns in a county, containing houses the inhabitants of which
were rated at the proper rate, but the population of which might be
infinitely inferior to that of a town where the houses were worse and the
voters consequently fewer. This anomaly would create great discontent,
It was an anomaly by which the basis of representation was narrowed.
With respect to chartered rights, a great and paramount necessity was
!the only ground for tearing off the seal of a charter - but none had
j been shown. It had been said that the measure would admit of all
interests being represented in tha House of Commons; but where
should we find representatives in the West India and the Rut
India interests ? The learned Judge-Advocate's argument last
night on this point was an urgument in favour of virtual
representation, though he contended for an actual represen-
tation. The representatives for Buckingham and Dumfries
were to represent those places' and not any other Interests.
It was said that those who opposed this measure objected to all reform,
but he (Mr. Praed) objected only to a reform that went entirely to re-
model that house (hear) ; and his apprehension respecting such a change
was much greater than that of the hon. the First Lord of the Admi.
salty. He had said that there was no danger to be apprehended to the
Hesse of Peers ; but he (Mr. Praed) had seen for a series of years a
g desire to pull down that respect for the House of Peers in which
ought to be held in the country. He knew that the sovereign of ibis
country had once been endowed with a veto. lie knew what bad be.
come of that veto,--that it had become obsolete. Ile looked with se.,
thous apprehension to this bill, and if it were passed by that house, they I
would carry reform beyond that house, and place their foot on the threshold
of the House of Peers. He might be asked to what reform he was friendly
He was friendly to a gradual reform of such grievances as should
be proved to exist. (Hear.) Cases of this kind often occurred...
East Retford was one. A noble lord had said that there would be one
thing gained by this measure—that the public would be no longer
mocked by the loathsome hypocrisy exhibited in the East Retford case.
He might live to see the day when a member in the place of the noble
lord, would say to the then House of Commons, one thing has beets
gained by this bill—the public will no more be mocked by the loath-
some hypocrisy of the discussions of 1831. He (Mr. Praed)said that
that this was not a final measure. (Hear, hear.) Sweeping as the
bill was, sufficiently so, as the noble lord said, to satisfy all modems
men—it did not go far enough for some ; and a bill might be looked
for which would go as far beyond the bill of the moderate men as the
bill of the moderate men went beyond the state of the constitution that
satisfied high toner. (Hear.) It had been urged as an argument by the
advocates of the present measure, that the house slowly followed Is
,the wake, instead of leading in the van of public opinion. It was the
case, and he rejoiced that it was so; for otherwise they would have
been the victims of all the evils of democracy. But the house
changed its policy when it was expedien t that it should do so—when
the measures which called for the change were sufficiently ripened in
the estimation of the public ; except perhaps in one instance with re.
spect to a great question, which he need not more distinctly specify._
It had been said also that if the house had a few years ago passed a bill
for enfranchising Birmingham and the other large unrepresented towns
there would be no excitement of the popular mind now on the subject
of reform ; but that argument was fully refuted by the statement of the
right hon. member (Croker) for Aldborough, that the endowment of
franchise had not constituted the prayer of the few petitions presented to
that house on the subject of reform for the last few years. Besides, if the
argument was good for anything, it led to this conclusion—that if such
a proposition now emanated from ministers, it would be assented to
without a division, showing that a moderate refonn only would be
in harmony with the feelings and opinions of the large majority
of that house, and not a measure like the present, that went to pull
down about their ears the fabric of our time-honoured constitution.—
Then, with reference to the diminution of the numbers of that house by
sixty-two seats, which would he the result of the noble lord's bill, they
had been told that the house was Inconveniently numerous, and that
the public business could be better managed by fewer members. Ho
denied the assertion, and contended that, whether they looked to the
magnitude and variety of the subjects discussed there and in the COW.
mitten above stairs, there was hardly a sufficient number of represen.
tidives in that house. (Hear, hear.) He trusted that for these and et-
vend other equally cogent reasons, the bill would be thoroughly revised
in all its provisions before it was next brought before the house. He
should prefer, instead of the great disfranchising clause, to see one in.
troduced for restoring the franchise to those towns which had lost their
right of returning representatives, or, if this proposition should not meet
favour in the eyes of ministers. he should prefer seeing the franchise
extended to several districts at present unrepresented, and which he
thought possessed at least equal claims to representation with those
towns on which it was intended to bestow the right of returning a mem-
ber to that house. He saw no reason why the several interests of the
empire should not be directly represented there,—why Jamaica, or the
island of Barbadoes, should not have their hon. members,....which web
not less objectionable than the present measure. He should like to ask
the noble representative of the University of Cambridge, what objection ,
he could advance ageinst—by way of balancing the great democracy in.
fusion tendency of the bill—doubling the number of the members for
the two universities ? Such an arrangement would, he could attune
him, be calculated to allay the well-founded apprehensions of his!
ecclesiastical constituents. It had been said that the bill was but a just!
concession of the demands of the people, whose excitement it
would thus abate. it was not, he maintained, what the people ,
asked for, judging by their petitions. They prayed for, in I
some instances, universal suffrage ; in ethers. fur the vote by !
ballot; and in others for a reduction of the public burdet.s
quite incompatible with the public service—desiring the dif.
fercnce to be made good from the revenues of the church; but in no in.
stance did they pray for such a measure as the present. They therefore
would not be satisfied by it; neither would Mr. Benthatn and his nu-
merous disciples; nor would that large class, of whom the honourable
member for Preston might be considered the representative. All, it was
true, openly approved of it. But why did they ? Because they contd.
dere:l it the first step towards further changes. (Hear, and a laugh.)—
The
reforming public was told by its leaders, " Accept of this for the
present, that we may the more readily wrest more by-and-by. Put this
in your pocket as the first instalment of the debt to lung due to us. The
bill of ministers will enable us to shake off the old man of the moun-
tains: all tie rest in good time." This was the reason that the bill was
received with open arms out of doors. (Hear, from the ministerial!
benches) and not that it went to satisfy the democratic cravings of the "
public. [From this point of the honourable member's speech, to the
conclusion, he was bat occasionally audible, in consequence of the mur-
murs and impatience of the house.] He begged pardon of the house:
he felt he was trespassing on its indulgence, but he would be brief.
(Hear.) He did not mean to deny that some of the petitioners who had
approached that house on the subject of reform were respectable and
intelligent individuals ; but he would maintain that, take them as a
body, they were not those persons to whose opinions he would refer on a
great legislative measure. He should have preferred more of the intel-
ligence and wealth of the community as a guide of their decisions.
There was another point on which he begged leave to offer a few ob-
servations—namely, the real cause of the present excitement on the sub-
lact of reform. He believed that the distrese under which the country
laboured contributed in degree to this excitement, but looked to the re-
viving industry and employment of all classes for the remedy. It had
been said that the excitement had been brought forward by ministers
themselves, to favour the progress of their reform measure. He did
not credit this assertion—he should

" as soon believe, with kind Sir Roger,
That old Aloll White took wing with cat and broomstick,
And raised the last night's thunder,"
as that the right honourable gentleman opposite had raised the present
excitement. (" Oh," and laughter.) What, then, was the cause of all
this clamour about reform 1 The cause, in his mind, had been wholly
overlooked by all those who bad preceded him in the debate, and would
be found, he believed, in the excitement consequent upon the car-
rying of the Catholic Question. (Great laughter, and cries of

" Oh, oh.") If the Constituti‘'n were to be pulled down, and c
painful change were made in it by the substitution of new influ-
ences for those which had hitherto worked an well, and if a change
were to be made which would ruin ti.e aristocracy, sully the splendour
of the crown, and destroy the monarchy. he would leave it to the noblv
member ft r Higham Ferrer, to perform the obsequies of rational It her
He could endeavour, if he could. to throw out this bill (hear, hear,)'
for he ass sure that whatever oti;:ht arise front it, the gentlemen of
England never would regret that thin had conscientiously performed
their ditty to themselves and their country. (Hear, bear.)
Sir F. BITRDETT and Mr. S l'Eser.var. rose together to address
the house, amid the cries of their respective friends ; but Sir F. Bur-
dett observing Mr. S. Pereeval's anxiety to speak, gave way. Oa Mr.
Perceval's persisting in his right to proceed, the cries of "Adjourn"
were trenknilous. After attempting, but in vain, to obtain a hearing.
the hon. member moved the adjournment of the debate, and then sat
down.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER suggested that they
had better premed, and finish the ditcusdoa that night. (Cries of 'go
on.' and adjourn.'
Mr. BEA U ONT proposed that the adjournment should be till five
o'clock on Thursday. and added that there was great inconvenience in
sitting on Wednesdays. (Cries of adjourn.')
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as it
seemed to be the pleasure of the house to adjourn the debate at this
period of the evening, he would implore the house not to lose a day in
bringing this discussion to a close. It would be indecent on a question
like this to let their personal convenience interfere with the performance
of their duty. He then suggested the propriety of adjourning till to.
morrow.

Mr. BEAUMONT said that, out of deference to the noble lord, he
would withdraw his proposition, but the friends of the measure could
receive nothing but benefit from the delay which he had suggested.
The debate was then adjourned till to-morrow, at L o'clock.
On the motion of the CHANCELLOR of the EZCHFQI'ES, the
calico duties repeal bill paned through a committee, with the under.
standing that the policy of the measure should be fully di•cusacd upon
a future stage.
The house resumed, the report was brought up, received, and ordered
to be taken into further consideration (this day.)
Tie other orders having been disposed of, the house adjourned at
half after one,