Star.
London, England, 1830-03-12 00:00:00

A.
ed
ag
for

able bodied men ? His honourable friend (General Gascoyne, as
we understood) had said "No". How then could this measure ap-
ply to the wages of labour ? But then they were told that a mo&-
fication of the English Poor Laws was what the Irish were to have.
He would ask what was meant by this modification ? It was an
enemy with which they could not fairly grapple. Like the gods of
old, it was wrapped in clouds, and could not be brought Into the
open light of explanation. In an able work lately published by Sir
John Waishe, on the subject of poor laws as applied to Ireland, the
writer protested against the " indiscriminate something" which was
always in the mouths of the advocates of such a system. Their
language was that something must be done. Inc should like
to -know whether that something was to be coupled with the
employment of the poor or accompanied with an act of set-
tlement. Any modification accompanied with a law of settle-
ment was objected to, by the writer he had already quoted, as
calculated to overbear any good which might, by possibility, be-
long to the system itself. Another admirable author thought
that without a law of settlement the system would be productive
of much greater mischief than that which it was intended to ob-
viate. Mr. Pitt hid declared that parliament would do well to re-
consider the law of settlement, with a view to discover remedies of
a different character. But he (Mr. Spring Rice) would ask those
gentlemen who were acquainted with, t state of Ireland, especially
in the remote counties, whether, even supposing the introduction
of poor laws to be desirable in itself, they had the means of carry-
ing; it into execution—whether they they could get up the ma-
chinery that would be necessary—whether they had the materials
in many of the counties out of which they could select overseers,
treasurers, and other officers. But absenteeism was to be corrected
too, according to the honourable member for Newark. So then it
appeared that parliament, in its wisdom, was, in the year 1830, to
pass a law, making a compulsory provision for the poor, in order
that abeentees might be incidentally compelled to return for the
purpose of undertaking the offices of overseers, and other parish
appointments. But who, he would ask, were the absentees ? They
were the Duke of Devonshire, Earl Fitawilliam, the Marquis of
Lansdowne, and other noblemen and gentlemen. He named them
not in reprobation, bui in honour ; for, if the condition of their
estates was compared with that of many of those who resided, the
comparison would be favourable to them. The way to bring back
absentees was to adopt such measures as would benefit the country,
and not, by a side-wind legislation invite them to become
churchwardens and overseers of those dstricts. There was one class
of reasoners who said, " We do not care what the effect of the
measure upon Ireland may be; as we hare It in this country, you
must have it in that.":He would appeal to the understanding of the
house whether this was fair argument. The Irish had a right to
say—" Show us that it has been useful to you, and then you
may talk of extending it to us." Another class of reasoner'
said—" If a country like England has grown great under a
system of poor laws, and if in Ireland without them the
labouring classes are driven by a lower rate of food and re-
muneration to emigrate into this country, give Ireland poor
laws, and you prevent emigration from taking place." He
denied that there was any tendency in poor laws to produce
such an effect. He had asked if it was intended to make any pro-
vision for able-bodied men, and was told that there was no such
intention. If not, then how was it possible, in the name of com-
mon sense, that poor laws could diminish emigration front Ireland ?
Were the persons who came over to save the harvest the old, the
decrepit, and the feeble ? No—they were the young, the healthy,
and the strong. If the poor laws were to be introduced into
Ireland, there would exist much greater difficulty than at pre-
sent presented Itself to the removal of Irish paupers from this
country, for now it au only necessary to land them upon any part
of the Irish coast ; whereas, if the poor laws were in force in Ire-
land, it would then be requisite to prove the parish they belonged to.
This could not be done without a lawsuit ; so that, in fact, it would
be hopeless for the English public to expect any benefit from
them. There was but one class which could benefit by their adop.
tion—the lawyers. (A laugh.) These gentlemen had already
contrived to get into their hands half a million of the English poor-
rates • and here they would have a new carcass thrown to them
to feed upon. (Loud laughter.) He ought to apologize for hav-
ing detained the house so long upon this most painful part
of the subject ; but he should now turn to the other view of the
subject, and see what advantage might possibly be reaped from
inquiry. 'rite only way in which the Introduction of the
Poor Laws into Ireland could prevent the Dish labourers from coin-
ing to England would be by raising the price of labour in Ireland ;
but, he would ask, how was that effect to be produced ? By the re.
port of a committee of that house upon the subject, it appeared that
the Poor Laws tended to the lowering of the price of wages, and
raising the price of provisions, so that it was clear they could not
prevent the emigration of Irish labourers into England. He was
firmly persuaded that so many Irish labourers would not come over
if England did not possess the power of sending them back. (Hear.)
—At present they came over to harvest; and, after working
during the busy time, they either transmitted their money
home or concealed it, and then applied to' the parishes to be
sent home. In many cases, too, the system operated with great
cruelty. Many unfortunate Irishmen who had lived for years (in
one instance that he knew of he could say 40 years) in this country,
becoming low in the world, and obliged to apply for accidental re.
lief, they have been torn from the soil in which they have been
growing ; all their associations have been torn up, and they have
teen sent to Ireland to be landed on a shore which was to them
a. much a land of strangers as if they had never known it. He
imi:ed those honourable members who were advocates for the in-
troduction of poor laws into Ireland to go into committee with him,
and if they could make out a case, and prove that the poor laws
were likely to be beneficial, he would become himself one of
their warmest advocates. He would state to the house practical
measures which might be adopted towards relieving the poor. The
present grand jury system of presentments operated most in-
juriously to the poor. In order to illustrate how this local
taxation rose in amount, he would instance the town he
trituself represented. In the year 1800 it came in the county
of Limerick to 6,7001. the next year to 18,4001. the next year
to 11.000/. and so on progressively, until now it reached the ettor.
moth sum of 40,0001. In Dublin, also, in 1771, the local taxes
tree only to 2,4001. when that city was richest ; but now they had
r sn: to the enoimous amount of 27,0001. These local taxes amounted
al•ogether, to the sum of 800,0001. and he thought It worthy of con-
saleration, whether this should not be cast upon the landlord as well
as the church-rate also, which would amount to about 80,000/. or
90.0001. at the rate of 2d per acre, which was about the aggregate.
lie could assure the house that more disturbance and discontent
arose from those local taxes than front any which the govern.
meat had levied. By means of public works, also, much might
be (hue for the improvement of the country. By the report of
Mr. 'Telford, before the committee of 1819, it appeared that
Scotland had been advanced at least a century in agriculture and
MlA:rig by means of the public works carried on in that country.
h
_1:11:ne ilroutionertable gentleman then referred to the evidence of Mr.
m
menus
of
public worksdfNi.in Ireland,
Griffith,t relative to t
contendedhthe
advant
advantages
t derived
had
:bus pointed out three several ways in which the country might
the
without having recourse to poor-rates. He also referred
e extortions inflicted at fairs, in the shape of tolls, which some-
ti.l vi amounted to as much as five per cent. So that when a poor
41,3!: could not sell, lie not only los: his time, but had to pay this
:lon-nous tax also. This was another evil which should be reme.
died
; it was an oppressive tax, and always led, almost every fair,
to broken heads. ha these reasons he thought it was high time
rut an experiment should be made to put an end to the nu-
merous obstructions to improvements in that country. Experi-
!.uc• is had already been made on bogs and waste land, and they
.1,,,1 proved successful. He should wish, however, not to confine
toe Improvement to land alone. He thought much might be
done by education, and by holding out motives for industry
and manual labour. He might say a great deal more on the sub-
,eet, but I.e had so long taken up the time of the house, that he
;iota,' nut trespass longer on their patience. In bringing forward
tnc motion he had no selfish or political motives to answer—his ob..
na. the improvement of Ireland; and the improvement which
le i..LILLLI forward to was not so much an improvement of the law as
. provement in industry anti frugality. He trusted, therefore,
that rear opposition would be made to the motion by the noble lord.
Tl'.lronourable gentleman concluded by moving for the appoint.
ttit.it,n: in
a select committee to inquire Onto the state of the poorer
.. Ls lreland, and the best means of improving their condition.
Geier.,l GASCOYNE, in rising to second the motion, said he
.:endured in almost every thing that had fallen awn his honour-
able (nod (Mr. S. Rice). Poor laws he thought beneficial to a
thutjur r,
y, an d it was no argument against them to say that abuses
pt into the system in England. Every one admitted the
east, and all admitted that they required alteration. His hon.
tin`r. had
asked him what system he would recommend for Ire.
anti in answer to this he would say, after a considerable is.
hint and the
isubject, both as regarded those who possessed he&
easciold property, that a change oug toand be adopted,
that all abt,tattea oiled to pay for the maintenance of dle,
!'')"r in the same way as in Scotland. In that country so molt
Nan paid per acre by those who resided on their estates, and a kola
',OlO was paid the absentees. In that he zrfect
because he thought absentees ought to be punished. (Hein-
honourabikn
tgret:rl9nan
industry had stated that there were eleven houses of
haw n ann. If that were all, he could • not help observing
stri., frc•port.
L The
ion they bore to similar establishments in E.
three Ulna" th expense for the poor of England amounted, in fact, On
r, venue wait amount of the whole revenue of Ireland. Tbil
,noudins
theexpenses for maintaining workhouses,amounted
tzaiikabs.o:t eleven millions a-year. ;Ala noble friend seemed
r some assistance from this country; and this, he M.
'4rwhenY to say, wast generally the practice of Irish members.
apointi of aPro o
p any improvement In that country, they made
'itch
wut, p yL.g for public assistance horn this' country. HI
ialei:C.m of his hon. friend, if It was his object to

establish a fund out of the taxes for the support of the poor of Ire-
land, he (Ow. Oascoyne) would give a decided negative to any such
proposition. He was gratified to hear that so great an improvement
had taken place in that country, and he hoped that in time it would
relieve England frbm the expense of providing for the Irish labour-
ers who flocked to this country. One great objection to introduce
some system of Poor lams in Ireland had arisen from the absentees.
Those, he thought, ought to pay, and for that and other reasons be
concurred in the motion.
Mr. FRANKLAND LEWIS began by stating, that though the
honourable gentleman who had spoken last seconded the motion, it
appeared to him that he differed from the hon. mover from beginning
to end. Before making any observations, however, on the sub-
ject, he would state that the house was greatly indebted to the ho-
nourable gentleman who had brought forward the motion for the
luminous statements which he had given, and the manner in
which he had treated the subject. He willingly concurred in
the motion,_ because he thought the appointment of a committee
would be of great advantage, not only to Ireland, but also to Eng-
land. The two countries had long been actuated by different feel.
ings—they were now united, and he trusted that all distinctions
would soon cease, and that the great measure which had been carried
last session would have the effect of completing the union. The
present system acted most injuriously to England. In this coun-
try there was a compulsory law for the maintenance of the
poor. No such law existed in Ireland, and the poor of that
country, consequently, were attracted to England to participate
in the provisions made for paupers. (Hear, hear, hear.) He was
most decidedly adverse to the adoption of a system of poor
laws in Ireland, similar to those of England, because he was
convinced that, if the law was made compulsory, it would
endanger the whole property of that country.—(hear.) He agreed
with his hon. friend this it would be proper to institute an inquiry,
and get rid of all those local dues, which only tended to encum-
ber property. This, no doubt, would be prejudicial to the interests
of particular individuals, but, rather than they should continue,
it would be better that some compensation should be made for
them out of the property of the district. The statements of his
honourable friend did not seem to him quite consistent when
he alluded to the charitable establishments of Ireland. He said

they would contribute in a great degree to relieve distress ; yet, at
the time he reeommended the introduction of such establish.

ments, he complained that they were unpopular, and were so
managed as to be of little advantage. The subject, altogether,
was one of great importance, and any system which the legislature
might adopt ought, in his opinion, to be the result of great and de-
liberate inquiry. If he recommended any system in preference
to another, it was that which had been long adopted in Scotland.
In that country, a selection was made from those who paid the
rates, and they were commissioned by the country to assess the
landed property for the maintenance of the poor. They were
much more likely to administer relief scrupulously, and according
to the real wants of the applicants, than the churchwardens or
overseers of a parish. Ithad been argued by some writers that ab-
sentees were not injurious to a country. Such a proposition he
thought most untenable, because it was natural to suppose that when
a landed proprietor resided on his estate he would spend a great
deal of money in improvements, and in many other ways which
would be beneficial not only to himself, but to his tenants, and to
all those who were dependent on him. He hoped that the Com-
mittee would be appointed, but that those members who were to
compose it would not allow their minds to be occupied with any
previous impressions.

Mr. DAWSON hoped that the hon. Mover of the question would
circumscribe the subjects which he bad given notice were to be sub-
mitted to the Committee, otherwise it was impossible that there
could be any practicable results. When the hon. gent. asked for a
Committee to consider the state of the brand Jury laws, the edu-
cation of the poor, the improvement of morals, and a variety
of other subjects, he must be convinced from his own experience
that no good could arise. He (Mr. Dawson) wished him to confine
the inquiry to one point--namely, the number of poor coining
from Ireland, and the means of employment that they bad in
this country, and how far they were a burden to the different
parishes, and then he would have an opportunity of following it up
by an inquiry into the number of unemployed poor in Ireland, and
he might devise means fur their employment. He therefore advised
the hon. member not to terrify the members of the committee by the
introduction of endless and fruitless subjects, but to confine himself
to one defined and practicable topic. It was a remarkable circum-
stance attending this debate, that while the hon. members for Liver-
pool and Limenck were understood to be decidedly opposed to the in-
troducLion of the poor laws tolreland,the former,by that happy fatality
which attended an Irish questions, was found as the seconder of the
motion introduced by his hon. friend. With every respect to the
speech of his hon. friend, the member for Liverpool, he was cm-
pelted to say that it did not contain one argument which should in.
duce any member to vote for the introduction of poor laws. He
had seldom heard a speech so totally devoid of argument and
reason.—(Hear and laughing.) With respect to the question of
poor laws, he thought that It was divisible into two distinct
heads. He objected to the English system being introduced into
Ireland (hear), as be was convinced that it would have the
effect of pauperising .nearly the whole of that country.—
(Hear.) He was of opinion that the lame and the blind, and the
aged and helpless, should be relieved at the public expense ; and he
wished to see some legislative enactment by which that good ablest
could be thoroughly accomplished. (Hear, hear.) He thou&
that the poor, in those extremities, should be entitled to relief terms
the parishes where they were barn or where they were settled.
(Hear, hear.) In saying so he only expressed the feelings of the
people of that part of Ireland with which he was connected,
who were anxious to see a legislative provision made foe
those persons who were the objects of the Act of Elizabeth. At
present the cold-hearted had the power of throwing the wretched on
the hands of the good-hearted and charitable; and it was finks
that the law should compel them to contribute equally for time sup-
port of those who were deprived by circumstances of the power of
supporting themselves. (Hear) One of the most striking things
which could affect a stranger travelling in Ireland were the number
of wandering beggars, and the kindness of the people in giving
them relief. That relief was at best inadequate to the pur-
pose ; and it was most unpleasantly bestowed ' • at least in the
oyes of those who were accustomed to observe the unosten-
tatious charity of England. It was not uncommon to sec a dozen
cripples, in small wooden boxes, carried from house to house for
relief; and there was seldom an instance where the poor creatures
were not relieved, or where the peasantry refused to carry them
from place to plate, until they had accomplished their circuit.
(hear, hear.) He had seen in the coune of his life hundreds of
poor beings carried in this manner, and he must say the sights
were most offensive to strangers, and it was at least proper that
the parish where they were born should provide for them. (hear,
bear.) He would go no further—he would stop there—and he
would never consent to the introduction of the English system
of poor laws, which gave the able-bodied labourer a right to live
at the expense of others —(hear.) If the English poor laws were
introduced, nine-tenths of the people would become a burden to the
country. In short, it would pauperise the whole population—
(bear,) and the cost would neither fall on the landlords nor the ab.
mew, but upon the occupiers of land.—(hear.) He was of opt.
use that Ireland was daily and hourly improving, and that it would
soon become an arm of strength to hngland, and he did not desire
to see that amendment checked by a measure width must tend to
the degradation of the people.—(hair.)
Mr. BROWNLUW said, to go into a committee:was only to
embarrass the house with evidence which it had already before it in
abundance; but, as the hon. member propood thereby to relieve
the existing distress, he for one would not oppose it. The heaviest
poet of the duty of the house and of the hon. gentleman would be
the consideration that distress was to be dealt with. He had bean
amused of drawing pictured of imagination more than of fact with
respect to the sufferings of the people of Ireland ; and he would
be gladly convicted of those statements, for he did not think that
language could exaggerate the amount of suffering, endured with
patience the most wonderful by the labouring classes of IrelaniL
He believed that they were below the standard of the peasantry et
every country of Europe ; and he knew no country pointed out by
any traveller in any part of the world where there was so much suf.
fering combined with so much patience—(Hear.) He admitted
that there were symptoms of improvement in Ireland; but be con.
Weird that it was confined to the landed interests. It was to be
found in the consolidation of farms, and in getting rid of hovels;
but it all tended to the detachment of the people from thesis/A.
lords.—(Hear.) The people were daily severed from their
agricultural employments, while he believed the •
had gone on increasing for 125 years, at a ratio greater am
that of any other country. Indeed one argument for the '
tion of poor laws was founded on the possibility of their
that redundant population; but he was of opinion, -thrit if the
dition of the people was improved, and mew et entplernmit
found for them, they would be more cautious of estrardng kn.
provident marriages. The honourable member for Liverpool conk
plained loudly of the vast number of pauper competitors with the
English labourers that came from Ireland every year, and he spoke
of the necessity of using coercive measures to prevent that evil; bee
honourable members should recollect that the raw mated*
which Ireland had the greatest facility of producing was labour.
(Laughing.)
be ughing.)
And he should also recollect that if Ireland ask
hour to emploed in this country England sent the if
labour to her in the shape of marofactura goods, wlisb ram*
displaced a greater quantity of labour than she thyme& of base..—
(Hear, hear.) Thelon. member need not, therefor, be so willing
to dispay his spleen at this pauper invasion, ea he called it. Hi
(Mr. B t hoped that while the Union between tbe countries
existed, every facility to communication between both woad
be kept up. He freely owned that he would edemas this hooka-
don into Ireland of a system of poor laws, ter, he tooethl Esther
call it, labour-rate, in connection with the Act et Matad
When the difference between the papal mien in Ingbedand kind
was considered, and the missy of the darts was emitemplated, it

could not be seen without causing one to believe that the measure,
of charity for England, and the absence of them in Ireland, must
have had a very considerable effect. When all other countries were
looked to where no such system as that of England prevailed, it
,they woad be found that all the boasted advantages of leaving the
pimple to themselves were not realised; but, on the contrary,
dieat mendicancy, thieving, shameless abandonment, and hor-
st& hnprsostions prevailed. But, on the other hand, when
looked to England, Holland, and Sweden, where a better
system how great was the difference—how gratifying the
picture r ei:daileeePso great, that there was strong temptation to be-
lieve that the difference of the population arose from the fact that in
the one Poor Laws prevailed, while in the others they were altogether
neglected. The hon. member proceeded to ridicule the idea of edu-
cation and native talent proving a check to population in Ireland,
and said, were no other means adopted, Ireland must become a great
waste to supply the parishes of England with paupers. (Hear.).—
This would not be the case were the admirable system of the Act
of Elisabeth to be adopted ; and when they had an industrious
i population on the one side, and on the other so many mil-
lions of acres unemployed, nothing could be hotter than to adopt the
1 sense of the resolution proposed by his hon. friend—namely, to em-
ploy the poor in the cultivation of the waste lands. He disagreed
altogether as to the difficulty of executing these laws, and he thought
that plenty of machinery for the purpose existed. The Irish pro-
prietor, too, would be a machine always going, and always in order ;
and he would now, from necessity, repress that system of increase
which hitherto he had a political reason to encourage. On any
ground, therefore, he was anxious to see a proper system introduced.
Lord F. L. GOWER said that he meant no opposition to the
motion of his honourable friend, but would offer his best assistance
in effecting the course proposed. As to absenteeism, he was ex-
tremely glad that a political economist of the experience and the
rank of his honourable friend was, like himself, at i&sue with one of
the great luminaries of the sect upon that subject. Any great and
sudden change in the law of Ireland he would deprecate, as it would
have a tendency to increase rather than to lessen absenteeism ; and
he also thought there could be no greater fallacy than to suppose
that the change contemplated would all at once remove that influx
of Irish labourers` which was so much complained of in this noun.
try, and any attempt to check it by the measure recommended by
the hon. and gallant Member for Liverpool would rather increase
than diminish the evil. It should also not be overlooked that great
advantage was derived from them when a press of labour required
their assistance, and their uniform good conduct was remarkable.
The only portion of his hon. friend's speech to which he could
object was its conclusion, which recommended a wider sphere to
the operations of the committee than was advocated; for, were the
grand jury system, tolls and customs, and the various other topics
alluded to, to be examined, there could be no hope of the main
subject—that of the amelioration of the poor—being considered this
session.

The Knight of KERRY thought that errors had arisen in the
debate. His hon. friend had justly stated that, before entering
into discussion, it would be well to define what poor laws meant.
Three definitions had been given : the first by the hon. and gal-
lant member for Liverpool, and that was, that on any Irishman
coming to England a second time, some punishment should be in-
flicted, such as confinement, and being sent back. The hon. mem-
ber for Armagh also gave his definition of the poor laws, which
was, that we should in Ireland simply adopt the Act of Queen
Elizabeth. No one was more gratified than himself at the ge-
nerous and exuberant effusions of patriotism emitted by his hon.
friend ; but he believed that, if once the principle of compulsory
relief were admitted in Ireland, all the evils attendant upon the
present perverted and abused system in England would be utterly
insignificant, in comparison with those which such a provision
would entail on Ireland. Poor Laws were totally inapplicable
there ; and he recommended all who wished for information, to
enable them to conic to aright decision, to read the work of Sir
John Walshe. One effect of the system would be the emigration
of a greater number of able-bodied men who are now kept at home
by their affection towards their families, but who, if provision
by law were once secured to them, could not by possibility resist
the temptation of the higher rate of wages in this country. The
system of the poor laws in England was inapplicable to any useful
purpose. They ought to give rise to sources of independent employ-
ment, and afford the means of taxing the land to make up for the
expenditure. The hon. member for Liverpool had said that the
members for Ireland neva said anything about Ireland without
asking for a grant of public money. Was he justified in that re-
mark ? Did his lion. friend now ask for anything for Ireland
which Ireland was not to pay ? He (Mr. F.) was anxious for a ter-
ritorial tax in Ireland ; not to be exercised as parochial assess-
ments were in England, but for the improvement of the territory;
to be levied, however, upon the land, and to be derived from
the proprietors of the land. As to the mode of assessment, the
House of Commons was the last body to whom such a subject
could be acceptable. The peculiarity of Ireland consisted in this
—that a vast portion of its revenue was totally drawn from it ;
and, therefore, domestic industry did not derive that advantage
which, in all improved and cultivated societies, was derived
from the expenditure of the income of proprietors. (Hear.)
It bad been stated, that the landed proprietors displayed much
liberality of conduct. Giving them thanks for the liberality with
which they treated their tenants, and for the great improvements
which they had effected in their estates ; yet when be considered the
vast number of absentees, consisting both of persons of large for-
tune and others of moderate income, who left -Ireland after the ex-
ample of their betters, this did constitute a peculiarity of case re-
quiring the deepest consideration His honourable friend had re-
ferred to the mode of assessment under the (hand Jury Laws.
It was now 35 years since, in the parliament of Ireland, he (Mr.
F.) proposed -the specific correction which was now offered as to the
mode of taxation. The person who let land free from Grand
Jury assessment received sgreater compensation than be who let
land incumbered with it. lie congratulated the house that it had at
last been able to approach a subject relating to Ireland without any
unpleasant feeling. It was what had never been the case before.—
He hailed it as the strongest evidence of the disposition of the Go-
vernment to do all in their power to improve that country that they
had at once acceded to the proposition of his hon. friend. He be-
lieved that distress of a great nature did prevail in Ireland, that that
distress had been occasioned by non-employment, but he believed
that there also existed in Ireland the principles and seeds of great
and growing prosperity. It was from that prosperity alone that the
means could be derived of. relieving England from the influx of
pauperism.
Mr. PEEL--I am decidedly in favour of the appointment of this
committee, because I think that nothing could be more imprac-
ticable than to attempt to legislate upon the subject of a provision
for the Irish poor without a preliminary inquiry, and that nothing
would be so unwise as to reject altogether the proposal to legislate
upon such inquiry. A great part of the value of this committee
will depend upon the mode in which the inquiries are conducted. If
there are to be inquiries into the generalcondition of the Irish poor, I
will not say that valuable information may not be collected, but cer-
tainly no practical good will result.He would advise his hon.friend,who
would, no doubt, act in the capacity of Chairman, to make a report in
the four following parts : Ist, to submit to the house and to theßritish
public a clear statement of existing enactments as to the provision
for the poor; 2dly, a statement of extent to which land or pro..
piety in general is subject to a pecuniary levy for the mitigation of di-
seise or the extension of subsistence ; 3dly, to consider whether it is
desirable, on principle, coextend those enactments; and whether,
if it be desirable to extend them, by what machinery they ate
to be extended • and, lastly, to consider the bearing of the in-
troduction of the poor laws into Ireland upon the population
of England. (Hear, hear.) He had heard much, in the course
of this night, of the introduction of the poor laws into Ire.
land. Belied thought much upon the subject, and there appeared
troth eo plausible as the assimilation and extension of the
system to Ireland. The system existed in two great
bland* of the United Kingdom : and it was impossible to deny
that groat injustice arose practically from its existence in those
pares, and its absence from Ireland. Some gentlemen said they
would take all that was good in the system, and exclude what was
bad. Could that be done ? Was there not an insuperable ten-
dency in any system of legitimate claim for relief, to grow up
into abuse? If the poor man was to have a claim for relief, what
were the limations by which his claim was to be controlled ?
To mythat every man who could not maintain himself by his la-
bour Wilda have a claim, would be subjecting the whole land of
Ireland to an Agrarian law, and the present possessor of land must
be content to part with his n without materially diminishing
the &Wes& To say, on other band, that you will not admit the
*bad a healthy man who cannot find work, while you admit the
*in al every man who is subject to ill health, would not narrow the
VisfaMbs, because, if a man were unable to procure einploymenc and
i 1 day were in want, the step towards indisposition was a very
duet sus. The boo. member for Armagh said he would not have a
pot rate, but a lalmot.aute—that be would raise nothing from the
land except that whisk should be applied to providing employment
hi the Ulu *idly adhered to that principle lie provided no
101111111* dlstrese. MI labour-rate occluded those most in need of
soopert. Was it to be a rate raised within the parish, and applied
oflaborer within the limits of tho parish ? If it was,
leel of all, it would diminish, pro team, the means of pre..
.pants farmers to employ the poor; and it would be appljcd
to • forced description of labour, which otherwise would not
arias, for which was no neeimaity, and which would ma-
terially interfere with the actual demand. (Hear, hear, hear.)
The tmesueer of the nave was an advocate for the introduction of
the Scotch rather than 011ie Essetsh system. The Scotch system,
as meted on in ibe MOM* was totally distinct from that acted oa
the lows ads ea weessalietariag distsiets. The law was the
'ems, but tbolrausies eras tilibro,t. Met be doubted whetbar, ell-
volisig to the decision or the, canto, thee was ai
ins cm titer of the poor for pecuniary rerfl.
throe to fed= sines a poopositiOn was mode to prevent
labserers a settlement ; that a three-yeses' rest.

deice should defeat a legal claim, iu case of their ability to
find subsistence. 't it: he doubted whether the proposal to
adopt the Scotch system, or the proposal of his hon. frit.nd and
relative (the member for Decry), to enable the majority of a pa-
rish -to tax the whole to support the poor, would he efrectual
cheats against the ultimate Introduction of the tvil system of the
poor laws. These- were practical considerationa, into which he
hoped the Committee would rather at once enter than into the ques-
tion of grand juty assesameots or absenteeism. It any mats
thought a tax on absentees plausible, let him read the letter of Mr.
Burke to Sir C. Bingham, at a time when there were much more
plausible reasons for taxation than at present. In 1774, when In.
land had a legislature of her own, it was proposed to put a uts,
on absenteeism ; but now, many were called away by their park:.
mentary duties here, and if they had property in both parts of the
kingdom, and might reside in either, how could It be consistent with
justice to impose a tax ? The most matetial object for the com-
mittee would be, to satisfy the people of Stigiand. They. had s
right to be satisfied. There was a gratt practical injustice i^ the
working of the poor law system, and there were great abuses in the
passing of Irish labourers. The hon. member for Liverpool had
proposed that they should be imprisoned.
General GASCOVNE—lmprisoned, and kept to hard labour- -
(A laugh )
Mr. PEEL—That would not be the cheapest way of getting rid
of Irish labourers, for it would be necessary to build prisons. lie
thought that all restrictions upon the obtaining a market for the
commodity which was the only possession of a poor man, all re.
strictions which prevented a poor man from seeking employment
where there was the best market, were most injudicious. As to the
formation of large establishments to receive the poor, be despaired
of an effectual remedy by that means, though it might be a matter
of consideration whether. in case of actual disease, facilities
should not be afforded. Upon the first consideratiou of this
subject he thought that the effect of the introduction of the
poor laws in Ireland would be to redress the injustice done to En g.
land by the claims for relief preferred by Irish labourers ; but In
now doubted whether it would bare that tffect. Englar.l did not
suffer from the invasion ut Irish distreas, but (win the invasion ut
Irish labour—from the inroads of the strong and healthy man why
was able to undertake the journey and work laud. He doubted
whether we did rot overrate the evil which the country sustained
from the introduction of Irish labour. The Itishman came over at

a period when there was the greatest demar.tl for labour ; and we
must not overlook the benefit afforded to the agriculturist by the
introduction of cheap labour. The behaviota of the labourer was
in general good. He wu afraid that the introduction of the poor
laws would have no beneficial effect. Tic whole subject required
much deliberate inquiry.
Mr. SLANEY said he was sorry to sec that, on a question to
which the house and the proposed committee should come with utt.
prejudiced minds, the hon. mover himself, as wells* other lion. gen.
demen should already have their minds made up. He maintained
that this was a question that concerned, not only Ireland, but Eng.
land also; for unless effectual means could- be devised to prevent
the evils arising from the continual influx of Irish laboureis into
this country, the English peasantry will soon be reduced to tit.
state of the Irish peasantry. As the question was at present neatly
exhausted, he would reserve what he had to offer upon it ftu
another =salon. lie would merely advert to the great num-
ber of Irish labourers who come over here annually by the means m
the facility of conveyance afforded by the steam-boats, which, from
being only fourteen employed about this country in 1814, had now
increased to three hundred. By those steam-vessels 28,000 deck
passengers came to Liverpool last summer, and if all could
be counted it would be found that no fewer than 50,000 deck
passengers came last year from Ireland, to compete with
English labourers. lie was opposed to the introduction of
the English system of poor laws into Ireland, but he thought
some part of them may be applied to Ireland. He herd,
however, that honourable members would reserve their opinions
fee the committee. It was from the introduction of capital he ex-
pected the igteatest, benefit in Ireland. And what prevented capi-
tal going from this country to Ireland, when it was sent beyond the
Andes and to the remotest parts of the world? Division, party.
and misrule foe centuries, caused so much distrust that none would
venture to carry capital to Ireland.

Mr. ALEX. DAWSON rose to correct a mistake into which the
hon. member for Shrewsbury had fallen, in saying that the :4,000
deck passengers who came to this country were paupers.—
He denied that they were paupers ; .they were able-bodied men, who
had a property in their health, and in the activity and energy of their
nerves. They came to this country with an offer of their labour,
which Englishmen found it to their advantage to employ, and they
did net fail to give sufficient recompense for the wages they obtained.
They were not vagrants nor vagabonds. There should be &distinction
observed between paupers and labourers. He would assure the gallant
member for Liverpool that it would be impossible to legislate so as to
prevent labour finding Its level,and going from one country to another.
, The beet way to prevent k in this are would be to give thelrish labour.
ere employment at home, and for that there was ample room. Of
the 12 millions dames of land in Ireland two millions were bogs,
upon the draining and improvement of which the people could be
profitably employed. As long as these bogs remained unreclaimtd
they were a reproach to the government. At an expense of 101. per
acre the bogs could be made into good land, that would let for :Ms.
and the outlay would pay 200 per cent. Instead of gabbling about
keeping the Irish labourers at home, the axe should be laid to the
root of the evil. and employment given them at home.
Mr. SLANEY begged to explain. He did not apply to the Irish
labourers those hank names of "vagrants" and "vagabonds" which
the hon. member imputed to him.
Mr. MONCK was understood to say that the coming of the Irish
labourers to this country, was not so great an evil es some supposed.
The English labourer had his security against the competition of
the Irish in the poor.laws. Thousands of the latter passed through
Berkshire in the season, and the farmers did not employ them to the
exclusion of the English labourers, who, If he did, would be sure to
claim his lewd right next day of the parish officers, and so have his
revenge on the farmer.
Mr. O'CONNELL said he did not take offence at the expressions
of the hon. member for Shrewsbury, as he was sure no Ocoee was
meant ; but he begged leave to contradict him. He saw nothing in the
people of England, the example of which could raise the morals of the
Irish labourer. He referred to the lista of crimes at the assizes and the
sessions through the country in the course of last year, when the
commissions for the city of Dublin and for other parts of Ireland
wete almost free from trials for such offences. That was an answer
against raising the moral character of the Irish by the example of
land. He admitted it—and he was sorry that numbers of able.
ed men were in distress in Ireland, with a most fertile soil and
ample room for their employment, but that something prevented
their employment. lie would reserve for another opportunity what
he had to say on the main question.
Sir C. COLE said that as a magistrate, he had such experience
of the English system of poor laws that he would not recommend
the introduction of them into Ireland.
Mr. SLANEY begged to explain once more. He never applied
the terms " moral condition" in the sense in which the bon. and
learned gent. took it.
The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee was named.
Mr. 'f RANT moved that it be an instruction to the Committee
to inquire how far the 42d of Elizabeth could be made applicable
to the poor of Ireland.
The SPEAKER told him that to move such an instruction was
useless, as the Committee had the power to consider the subject.
Mr. HUME then suggested that Mr. Train might be added to
the committee.
Lord L. GOWER said there was no pen.onal objection, but, a.
the committee was to be limited, it would be inconvenient to add to
it every member that made a suggesslon.
July SYsTEN IN SCOTLAND.
The LORD ADVOCATE, on the suggestion of Sir O. WAR-
SLENDER and other members, on account of the lateness of the
hour, put off his motion on this subject, and said he would take his
chance of getting it on this day.
his. R. (JORDON asked if the proposed reforms in Scotland
would lead to an increase of the salaries of the Judges ?
Mr. HERMES said as the learned lord postponed his motion
upon the suggestion of Bon. members, it was Hot reasonable now to
ask him to state a part of it.
PRICE OF COALS.
AIL Md. WOOD said he would not, at so late an hour, detain
the house. The corporation of London was anxious to have en.
quiry by a committee cf the house, with a view to reduce the
price of coals, and to ascertain the expediency of selling them by.
weight rather than by measure. Ile referred to the relief gine by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, when he took off 3s. per cluddron
of the duty !lento/ore, and be hoped he would now take off the
remaining 6s. He moved for the appointment of a select corn.
131ittte to inquire into the state of the coal trade, and to consider
the acts of Parliament relating to the delivery of coals in the port
of London, in Surrey, Kent &e. and into their price in those
places, and in the places of shipping them, and to inquire what re-
strictions were on the supply of thew.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY seconded the 'notion.
31r. ItU3IBOLD moved that other ports be added to the port
of London.
After • short conversation, in which Mr. F. Lewin, Alderman
Thompson, Mr. T , Mr. Harries, sad Mr. Stewart Wortley
took a part, Mr. it othhotew his asseadassat, aid the ori-
ginal motion was ?ski and earded.
Mr. MUMS hadag reliedet that, la the list of the Committee,
there west t) the coal intense aad
as
veryu
city at foe the public at large was y
diapeopertleaata, peopesatillia MUMS" OA, T. Ackland, which
WU WWI 10* .. •
The rewards. orders of tom,.
day where then quickly disposed
of, use the hews adjeareed at ass o'caeca.