Star.
London, England, 1812-02-04 00:00:00

thing would be conducted with the calmness and
modaation which they had used on &meet beca-
sions. It was from the Throne they had derived
every boon, and it was natural that upon the present
occasion they should appeal to it. It was in matters
of this kind only that lie would advise this plan of
proceeding. It was true that the House might origi-
nate such a discussion, but as a question of expediency
he preferred the other way. No man would deny that
it must turn out most unpropitious to the Catholics,
that this business should be brought forward as an
annual question, to be debated by party in that
House. The intention ofpetition had been announced,
and even the most eager advocates of the measure
would allow that it ,was a subject of such high mo-
-1 ntent, as required considerable time for deliberation.
INo obstacle should arise from a premature considera-
tion of it, that may intercept the coming grace.—
' Theie existed strong prejudices against it, which rea-
son and temper could alone overcome. He hoped,
even though disappointed for the present, they would
rest their question upon a beneficence yet to come.—
They had not now the hope of success, but they
had not the certainty of despair, and thiiugh he
saw at present no prospect of their success, he could
not much blame them for petitioning, because to the
afflicted, or those who conceive themselves se, there
is some consolation in complaint. He was glad their
applications were not now before the House. Wish-
ing well to the Catholics, not as Catholics, but as
Members of the British Empire, he wished to see
them brought to amity, and reconcilement, and peace,
not in the way his Honourable Friend would advise,
by taking from them what they had received, not by
a victory of one party over the other, for he would
not wish that Catholics sliould succeed at the expence
of the honest prejudices of their Protestant brethren,
by smoothing things in such a manner as that this
public mind may fall into it without surprise and
without irritation. He would not enter his protest
against it upon the same ground as his Hon. Friend,
namely, the principles recognised at the Revolution.
—The Constitution was capacious enough to admit
within it all sects, and the Cagtolics as well as others;
bat the present was not a time in which any good
could arise from such a Committee as that proposed,
and he niust therefore oppose it.
Sir JOHN NICHOL rose to explain. He did
not entertain, nor did he express, a wish to re-enact
the penalties that had been removed from the Ca-
tholics: it such re-enactment were proposed„he shoul4
oppose it. He did not express any wish that even
the p esent laws in force against them should be per-
petual._

- Mr. CANNING did not intend misreprecentation,
but he so understood him, and was now quite satin-
. •d with the explanation of the Right Hon. Gen-
tl?mari.

4r. PIUTCHINSON could net pass over the
allusion to him which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
made. It was not the first time he had known him
to close in that House a very splendid speech by a
miserably bad vote. The Honourable Gentleman
then went into an exculpation of his own conduct,
and some very severe strictures on the political con-
duct of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Mr. PEELE, in rising to oppose the Mot:on, ob-
served, that a Committee was not required merely for
the purpose of inquiring into the Catholic claims, but
it was also meant to examine the conduct of the Irish
Government. Convinced, as he-was, that the motion
had in view such secondary object, he could not ap-
prove of it, even had he. been friendly to the Catholic
claims ; for by so doing, it would ba assuming that
there was something wrong in the conduct of that
Government. He should not then impose on him-
self the unnecessary task of defend;ng the proceedings
of the Irish Government, but he thought that the
measures pursued by the Irish Catholics, recently, jus-
tified all that had been done. Much had been said
about the right of petitioning ; but he would ask,
whether there was any necessity forconvzning so for-
midable an assembly as had ISC'n called together to
prepare a petition to that House ? With respect to the
Catholic claims, he much questioned, consideriag the
prosent state of the head of the Roman Catholic
Church, whether the veto would be a sufficient secu-
rity. But admitting for a moment, that those claims
were to be acceded to—that the Catholics possessed
all the privileges of two branches of the Legislature,
it would then be asked on what ground they were to
be excluded from the third.—(lfear.)—The motion,
however, he could not agree to : the present was not
a time to discuss the ela.ms of the Catho:ics, and he
knew of nothing in the conduct of the Irish Govern-
ment that called fur examination by a Committee of
that House.

Lord GEORGE GRENVILLE most heartily
concurred in the Motion before the House; nith a
strong conviction upon his mind of the present im-
portant crisis, he could not but deem it highly
politic in them to exert every effort to conciliate all
classes of the people.' By conceding to the Catho-
,Lcs those privileges and immunities which they de-
sired, Cie love and veneration for the Constitution
and Government under which they lived would be
increased ; and they would, with increased sincerity,
advocate the cause of England. Alluding to those
events wkch have recently taken place in Ireland,
the Noble Lord contended that the Irish Govern-
ment, in its conduct, had deputed from the spirit
of that law according to whcri they professed to act.
With such opinion, he could not but think that there
ought to be a Committee to inquire into the state of
Ireland. As to the Catholic claims, to certain pri-
vileges in common with their Protestant brethren, he
thought the time had come when they ought to be
extended to thorn ; but the Catholics might, and pos-
sibly would, meet with defeat in their present exer-
tions. Such, however, was the weight of reason and
justice on their side, that though success would cer-
tainly be advantageous, still defeat in such a case could
1 not be without its splendour. He firmly believed
! diem to i)e sl;saffected to the Government—but that
disaffection, such as it was, arose from the best feel-
ings' of their nature. Entertainisg such belief, lie.
could not but fervently implore the House now to
i think of granting that which might not hereafter be
prayed for, but demanded. The time might come,
should they continue to refuse the Catholics what they
requirsd, when a demand would be made not unac-
I conipanied by threats of defiance. Those arms which
° they-had been taught to use successfully in the cause
of gogland, might be exerted to forward their own
claims and-views.
Mr. HERBERT could not but agree with the line

of argument piisued so eloquently and eiliorieci so ,
ably by A Right Hon: Gentleman nW• him (Mf.
Canning). He, however, was firmly of opinion, that
a Committee to inquire into the state of Ireland Might
do much good, Might produce the moist beneficial re-
sults ; but if he thought that by approving the mo-
tion it would be understood that he meant to imply
censure-of the Trish Government for their recent con-
duct, he certainly should oppose it. Approving,
however, as he did, the conduct of the Is ish Govern-
ment, he could not but support the motion.
Sir ARTHUR. PIGOTT had hoped to hear rrom
some of the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite,
when the time would arrive at which they thought it
would be prudent and just to entertain and consider
the claims of the Catholics. He had, however, ho-
ped in vain : hitherto they had continued mute. One
Honourable and Learned Gentleman (Sir John Ni-
chol) to be sure, had said, that it ought to be a time
to consider their claims when the mass of the Irish
Catholics had become educated—when they should
no longer be ignorant, but possessed of knowledge--
when they should turn from turbulence to order !
When all these things should come to pass, then, ac-
cording to the Learned Gentleman, would be the
time for discussing the Catholic claims. He (Sir
Arthar Pigot) could not dare to dip so deep into fu-
turity as even to surmise when that happy time
might arrive; but he feared that he should not live
till such time arrived! But what should he say of
the speech of a Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning)
who followed the Learned Baronet. After ably com-
bating all the arguments that could be urged in oppo.
sition to the claims,—after dispersing and putting to
flight, as it were, all reasoning that could be opposed
to them, he concluded (Oh! conclusion most lame and
impotent !) with stating, that he could not approve
such a motion as the one before the House, till he
knew the fate of a motion which was to he made in
March for a reveal of the Union. When March shall
arrive, and when the motion shall have been disposed
of in that way in which it very probably will, them
the Right Honourable Gentleman probably would
be for waiting till prejudices should have subsided,
and till the question could be entertained with the
concurrence of all parties ?—(Hear.)—But alas !
when would prejudices subside, and when might it he
expected, that such a question would be entered upon
I with the concurrence of all parties ?—(Hear) —To
; wait for such times would be futile in the extreme.—
; Other motives, however, might actuate some per-
! sons in that House ; but no desire to concjliate in
I any quarter.—(Hear, hear, hear )—ought to impede
a question of such vital imp ,rt to the efhpire at large
—(Hear, hear, hear.) - But how was it, that none of
; the Right Honourable Gentlemen opposite had deem-
ed it necessary to rise, even in the defence of the Irish
I Government ? The conduct of that Government
I had been such, that it required much explanation,
and much j nstification.— (Hear, hear.)—He was glad
to see in his place, one Minister (Mr. W. Pole)
who had been a principal performer in the recent pro-
ceedings of Government in the sister kingdom, Con-
sidering the situation in which the Irish Government
stood before their recent enterprizes, and considering
the anxiety into which Ireland had been driven by
those enterprizes, he thought that House had a right
to some explanation from the Right Hon. Gentleman.
—(Hear, hear, hear.)—With respect to the time of
bringing forward the present question, if it could be
shewn, that the consideration of it ought to be put
off for fifteen days, he certainly should not object to
the postponement. But they would neither say that
, it ought to be put bff for fifteen days, nor would
they tell the House when the question ought to be
brought forward. Believing, as he did, that Mi-
nisters would be just as much disposed to entertain
j the question fifteen days hence as they were at the
present moment, he thought it was only tantalizing
the feelings of the Catholics to play off this political
pantomime abr ut time. ( Hear .')—lf the Ministers
j would not say when the question ought to be en-
. tertained, the House must determine ; and.if the
question ought to be entertained at all, why not at
the present time ?—(Hear, hear!)—With respect
to the state of Ireland at the present moment, he
• would not weaken by any statalwat of oen, what
had been so ably said on that head by a Right Hon.
Gentleman ( Mr. Canning), but would content him-
self with merely asking, whether Ireland ought to
continue in such a state ? • (Hear, hear.) It ought ;
nt,t, and the promises held out to the Catholics arthe
time of the Union ought to be realised. When taxes
were to be raised, then the Irish were considered as
subjects ; but they were no longer deemed such when i
they would complain. Petitioning was a right inhe-
• rent in the people, and which was not to be tam ?ered
with. If ingenuity had not tortured the sense of ex-I
ceeding plain words the Act would have effectually
secured the right of petitioning among the people.—
And did his Majesty's Ministers say that all the I
counties required to meet in aggregate bodies in or.
• der to prepare their joint petitions. And was that the ,
• manner they provided against tumults and mobs.—
He was extremely sorry for the necessity he felt in
being obliged to animadvert during his speech on the
Magistracy, and assured the House he entertained !
no rancour against them for the sneasures which
they had adopted, though lie should feel every incli-
nation to favour to the utmost of his capacity the ,
present measure.
Mr. WELLESLEY POLE, arising in opposi-
tion, said, from what bad passed last year in the Go- '
vernment of Ireland, he would have been much
surprised had the Hon. Gentleman on the opposite
• side allowed his share in those proceedings to pass
without some reflections. But he felt still greater
surprise when, on a night expressly nominated fcr the
purpose of proposing a motion respecting Ireland,
not one of those great leaders in the motions regar-
ding that country had condescen fed to rise, and had
remained so long silent. He hurried down to the
House of Commons. full in the expectation of hearing
them poor forth what they airmd against the iris!'
Government. (Ilear, hear, bear.) In that country,
_whatever Gentlemen might exclaim, he was conscious
of having done nothing but his duty in the measures
which had been adopted, The debate in the present
instance, was somewhat of a different complexion from
what the like motion bare last year, as the House '
would easily recollect. The present motion, if he un-
ch.rstood right the manner of the Noble Lord's sKech
which introduced it, .divided itself into two heads.
• —Yirst, a direct implicat:on cf the manner in
wllich the Irish Government had been conducted,
find seeopdly, the iliujsion of the Catholic Question.