Star.
London, England, 1825-02-12 00:00:00

ASSOCIATIONS IN IRELAND.

The Order of the 111 for the resumption of the adjourned de-
bate having been read,
Mr. PELHAM rose, and occupied the House for
nearly a quarter of an hour ; but owing to the situation of the
llonourabk Gentleman, under one of the side Galleries, and the
low tone of voice in which he spoke, rendered every word he
utt,ted, inaudible in the Gallery.
Mr. GIIATTAN then rose.—He observed that the
Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Goulburn), in his
speech of last night, had taken occasion to allude to
the prosecutions of the Catholic Association, in a man-
ner which he thought amounted to :in imptration on
that body. Although he did not mean to say that he
approved of 'heir conduct altogether, yet he would say
a word or two in their favour in justice to an absent
body. It appeared to him, that the Right Honourable
Gentleman had said everything he could against them
unfairly, at least he would say partially. He had com-
pared them to the United Irishmen, and accused the
Priests of uttering the most inflammatory publications.
But he had omitted to state that theDuhlin press had been
conducted for many years by the Protestant Clergy, and
that of which he complained proceeded from the violence
of that party. ibis Association was formed two or
three years ago, for the purpose of self-defence against
that party by which the country was governed. It was
composed of Protestants as well as Catholics. He was
not one, because their proceedings might lead to vio-
lence, and because it was impossible to justify all their
ridiculous conduct. The Association were not the ori-
ginators of the evils in Ireland. Let them plead their
own cause. and he heard by Counsel at the Bar of the
House. This Bill was a declaration of war against the
Catholic Association—it was an Orange Bill. -It was
not from the North of Ireland, it was from Derry—no
Catholic could mistake it. He (Mr. Grattan) supported
the Protestants of that country, and should do so to the
last day of his hie, and he opposed the Bill, because it
was inimical to the Protestants. He had heard of plots
in that country of late, but the only one he knew of
was the aiming of Protestant farmers against the Ca-
tholics—the thing ended in smoke, all that
was-an occurredsaat.
being that a Catho:ic was fired at. There w
tamut to prosecute the matter at law, but it was hushed
up. They all knew what hush-monty was in that
country. The impoverished peasant dare not lodge an
information, or budge a foot, for fear of his landlord ;
and it was here that the Association interfered with the
laws. lie did not mean w say that the administration
of justice in Ireland was not pure—(Hear, heat)—but
he knew of a case, in which, through the exertions of
the Association, five or six policemen %%ere convicted of

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telowir'777—
a warder. It•was idle to say that thkilish peasant had
justice. He conjured the Hon raW Gentleman; to
consider the course which simile cts had taken. The
lit
Convention Act did not stop die ieellion. He was olio
enough to recollect the horrors of that time, and who
was worst of all, the Union. With. regard to the Act
which the Right Hon. Gentleman had of late years in-
troduced, it had been evaded, and he believed that
there were ten thousand mote Orangemen last year than
the year before. He knew what the French Police was,
and he knew that all such systems ended in espionage.'
This was what such a system tended to, although it
might not be so nov4 It was a gagging system, and
one which tended to hostilize every man in the coun-
try. He protested against such a system. It could not'
hut hurt Ireland, and prevent speculation and capital
entering that country. Rather than live there under
such allill, which might be evaded every day, he
would rather live in England, or anywhere. Now, what
had the Irish Parliament done for Ireland? It had got
her a free trade, and that was mote than an English
Parliament Would do.. Since the Union, the people had
been kept down by the bayonet and force. When it was
said that an 01 angeman could not be distinguished
from a Protestant, he denied the fact. In Ireland, those
two characters were well known from each other.—
They had beard a good deal about the hate of a Catho-
lic for an Orangeman. He maintained it was a natu-
ral expression; the Orangemen hated the Catholics—
(Hear, bear). It was very well to talk of being smote upon one
cheek and turning the t.ther. hut who would do it? Let them look
at the epithets which the OrAngemen applied to the Catholics—
arch-bends, demagogues, and so on. The fact was, that in Ireland
there was one party whom the Government persecuted, and ano-
ther whom they supported—( kar, hear). lie had thought it his
duty to kis country to state what he had stated, and would not tres-
pass on the House further.
Captain MABEItLEY said that he lose with regret,
and he might say with indignation, to advert to the
proceedings of his Majesty's Ministers. He charged
them with having done what was unusual as re-
garded that House, and what was most cruel as
regarded Ireland. It was upon notoriety that they pre-
tendedto found their measures, although it was plain
that the Government of the Country, and those who ought
to be best acquainted with the proceedings of the Catholic
Association, were real? ; ignorant of what they were doing.
But what sort ofnoteriety was that, when the Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland, and the Right Hon. Secretary for
Foreign Affairs actually_differed as to the grounds upon
which they assented to the measure it was now proposed
to take ?—One said that the Catholic Association was a
virtual representation of the people, and that, therefore,
it should be put down; it was a sort of Parliament. The
Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs declared that
this body did not represent the feelings of the people,
and upon that ground he justified the introduction of a
measure to get rid of it. How different was the course
when the state of the country in 1799 would have justi-
fied different proceedings! Even during the terrible
times of the French Revolution, when there were Clubs
and Corresponding Societies, and the yet burning em-
bers of tebellion in Ireland, so unwarrantable a course
as that now proposed had not been adopted. There
were reports of Secret Committees, almost without
number, upon the table of the House. But did Govern-
ment offer to introduce Bills for the Suppression of
Corresponding Societies without inquity ? Not even in
those times did they venture to pass Acts of Parliament
without referring documents to the House, or appoint-
ing a Committee to investigate. The first charge he
bad to prefer against the Right Hon. Gentleman who
originated the discussion was, the use of the expression
66 virtual representation!" It was an expression coined
during the period of the debates on the American Re-
volution. The Americans were told at that time that
they were virtually represented, but They did not hap-
pen to think that enough for them. What followed?
Why the Americans erected a Parliament of their own
—this he called virtual Representation with a ven-
geance. But the Right Honourable Gentleman, not
satisfied with attributing to the Catholic Asso-
ciation the sin of virtually representing the Irish
people, went on to call them a Parliament. The
Right Honoutable Gentleman went very smoothly on
.sy imperceptible gradations to the object he had in view.
He is abed to establish a resemblance between the
powers of the Catholic Association and those of Par-
liament. They had a President, he told them, and that
President, although now temporary, he had heard it
was their intention to make permanent. As to their
apeing Parliament, because they had Committees and
such like, he denied the inference. In that respect the
Catholic Association had anedelled itself upon the
usages which prevailed in all countties. All that their
regulations or President did was, to maintain a certain
order in their proceedings, preventing more than one I
man speaking at a time, and so on. This was what
was observed at the commonest parish meeting in the'
kingdom. Although he might, perhaps, concur with
the Right Hon. Gentleman to pass a general law re-
stricting all Societies, yet that would not be a reason
why he should assent to the present measure, which
went to put down the Catholic Association. Theßight
Honourable Gentleman had chosen the Convention Act
as the basis of his present measure. Now that Act had
already failed, and he wondered why that which had
beet% so inoperative should be selected as the most pro-
bable to be efficient now. But it never would be effi-
cient enough to suppress the Catholic Association en-
tirely. It would charge its name, without losing any
of its energy. Mr.O'Connell and his fellow-labourers
would continue to annoy the Ministers at every turn.
The Hon. Member read an attract from Mr.O'Connell's 1
speech, stating his determination to hold similar meet-1
ings in some way or other. If the Association could
net meet as a formal body. it could meet at least as a
dinner party. He would ask whether the Attorney-
General for Ireland had lin-go:ten the facts which took
place in 1811? The Catholic Coinmittee at that time
was taunted with not repitseoting the feelings of the
whole Catholic Body. They answered," You shall see,"
and immediately called a Convention, consisting or the
Catholit Peers, Poeta' sacra, Baronets, and ten delegates
Gent each County in Ireland. The Government soon
became alarmed, and the delegates wet e dispersed under
what was called the Convention Act. But though the
Catlaolie Committee was dissolved, yet every individual
Member was re-appointed, and the same thing would
• take place again if the Association should be suppressed.
Wick suds a knowledge of former facts, he was sur-
pi ized to see the Right Lion. Gentleman proceed in ex-
actly the tame way again. All the machinery of law
would beput in moliora, but in vain, for it was impos-
sihle that the ponderous armed force (if he might use
tteespeessionl of Government, could stand the contest
with gee light airy troops of the Catholic Association.
Ildr. O'Connell, Mr. Shia, and a single Repotter,
could of themselves form another Association as good

as that which at present existed. It was important ,
keep the actual state of Irelanai et:instantly in vies, be
cause as that state was the ground of the piesentinea-,
suret the true character of that measure could not be
properly ascertained without cautiously examining the
condition of Ireland. He had roticied in Ireland ever
since the last Session of Parliament, and in the quar-
ters formerly the most disturbed. There were no longer
any of those murders, massacres, and burnings, which
used to fill so many melancholy pages of Irish histbry.
The rent was punctually paid, and leases were regularly
made. This v. as a proof of tranquillity, for so long
as any disturbance existed, the Itish peasant preferred
trusting to-the chapter of accidents rather than engage
himself by the obligation of a lease. Many of the mea
sures of the present Irish Government deserved praise.
The Tithe Composition Act, and the Insurrection Act
ilhad both been greatly beneficial. Of the Police Act he
could likewise speak in praise. The Police force was 'a
decent and well-conducted body of men—few offences
were committed by them—(Hear)—still they were a
kind of force which required a most active and diligent
controul, as they had all the inconvenience of a mili-
tary body, without its capability,discipline,and controul.
The Catholic Association had also contributed its share
to the establishment of order in Ireland. In spite of all
the censure which had been cast upon the Address of
that body, he must think that such a pathetic and skil-
ful appeal could not fail to have a great effect upon the
feelings of a generous peciple. Circulated, as it had been,
through the channel of a Priesthood, it hadgreat influ-
ence over the peasantry. Nor did he share in the horror
expressed against the phrase 64 by the hate you bear to
Orangemen:' He had learned from very respectable
Catholics, that a general impression prevailed amongst
them, that the Orangemen were trying to stir up an in-
surrection in the South of Ireland. True or false, this
was their impression, and no wonder that the Catholic
leaders had like thoughts. The real force of the phrase
was ,4 by all that you consider sacred." It was an ap-
peal to their warmest feelings, and nothing more. A
great many stories had been circulated about plots and
rebellions at Roscrea, Carlow, and New Ross. Yet on
enquiring, they all turned out to be fabrications. The
great secret of Irish tranquillity was the improved con-
dition of the people—the increase of trade—and the
augmented happiness of the people—(Hear). That
tranquillity, however, was in danger of being inter-
rupted by a circumstance which, when alluded to by
an Honourable Baronet (Sir H. Parnell), had excited
the sneer of the Right Honourable Gentleman. He
meant the Bible Societies. He concurred in repro-
bating the rash and outrageous attempt of those two
modern crusaders, who went about Ireland to make, as
they avowed it themselves, converts and proselytes. As
a specimen of the manner in which these controver-
sialists conducted themselves, he would read an extract
from a Report of a Bible Meeting held at Carlow,
which lasted several days. It was an extract from the
dialogue which took place:
" Mr. M'Sweeny-- I choose to personate a Socinian : how will you
convince,upon your own principles, that the divinity of the Simons
Meats pater at esejor me—My Father is greater than I.—How do
you explain that?'
" Mr. Pope ..4 By fair and legitimate reason. If the Ilxossmaa
be declared GOD in very many passagee, as I have shewn you this
morning that he is, then we must look for some explanation of the
passage that will not militate against them. I inquire, is there any
verse in which the SAVIOUR. was inferior to his FATHER without
compromising his essential divinity ?—The answer is obvious in his
mediatorial office and in his human nature. This is, then, the ex-
planation I would give:—Cunner, while one with the Danes,
and equal to him in his Godhead, is inferior to the FAIIIML in his
mediatorial capacity and in his manhood."
" Mr. M'Sweeny replied—' That will not do, Sir : you have
proved nothing; you have given an explanation that may satisfy
yourself of there being nothing in the passage inconsistent with the
FARRIS considered as to his Divine nature.
" Mr. Pope said— I don't know what the Gentleman means
by proving nothing.'
" Mr. M'Sweeny—' The Father is greater than He! You have
not, Sir, explained this text so as to satisfy a seaman, though you*
wake for three hours and a half, and during your speech you wan-
dered considerably from the subject.'
" Mr. Pope—' I certainly did speak for a long time, but I day
that I wandered from the subject.'—This was followed by loud
cries of No, no!'—' Answer question now.'
" Mr. Daly—Mr. Pope has answered the question. I appeal to
you all if this is not fair play ? Should be not answer the "NSW
now ? Yee are all honest Irish fellows, and I am sere like fair play.
" Mr.M'Sweeny—l will refer to the Chairman whether you an-
swered the question or not?
" Colonel Rochfort—l must decline giving an opinion upon this
subject—(' Bravo ! bravo!' and loud cheers).
" A Gentleman here presented himself to the Chairman, ma
said—' From the feeling which bas been manifested, I Welt the
Meeting ought to adjourn for the present.' The scene of tumult
that followed this lasted for several minutes. The Chairman en-
deavoured to calm the Meeting.
" The Rev. Mr. Shaw endeavoured to address the Meeting, bat
it was impossible to catch a word that fell from him. It appeared
to be the intention of the mob not only to prevent the Reverend
Gentleman from being heard, but to proceed to acts of personal
violence against :he Protestant Clergy assembled on the platform.
With this view, the temporary barriers which were erected for the
purpose of dividing, were broken down.
" Several of the candles were extinguished, and a scene of riot
and confusion took place, the most disgusting and disgraceful. Tip
doors of the chapel had been closed, and the violent knocking and
yells of those without, contributed not a little to the horror of the
scene. Mr. Battersby, the officer commanding the police, having
intimated to the Clergy of the Established Church, that from infor-
mation of which he was in possession, as well as his own per-
sonal observation, he could not undertake to be answerable for
their lives, unless they immediately retired, the Rev. Mr. Wing.
field, Daly, Pope, and Jamieson, were obliged to scale a wall eight
feet high, whereby they escaped the insults and attacks of an in-
furiane rabble.
" Mr. Cleary, alked if the meeting was to be adjourned, and for
what period?"
" The Chairman—The meeting is adjourned sine die.
" Mr. Clowry—Then I am quite satisfied for the present—
(Loud and triumphant cheers).
" The Rev. Mr. O'Connell then ascended the pulpit, front which
the Rev. Gentleman gave thanks to Coo for the triumph. that had
been achieved; and also returned thanks to Colonel Rochfon foe
the manner in ..bich he had contributed to it. "—(Loud laughter
from all sides of the House).
Such were the materials which Parliament would have
to deal with in legislating about Ireland. He ascribed
much of the growth of the Catholic Association to such
injudicious discussion. Last Session they heard little of
the Association, and a great deal of tithes, Grand
Juries, partial laws, Orange Societies, but nothing of the
Association. He was in Dublin last July, and attended,
as a stranger and unknown, at some of their meetings.
The language he heard was temperate, and the rent
was very low. Within three months the rent rose from
501. per week to 5001. Within that period nothing had
risen to occasion such an increase but the Bible So-
ciety Meetings, which attacked the Priesthood, and
through the Priesthood the Irish people. The Hon.
Baronet (Sir Henry Parnell) was perfectly right in
attributing so much to the Bible Societies. There
was an intense expectation throughout Ireland that Ca-
tholic Emancipation was ultimately to be effected by
the labours of the Association. He traced to this feeling
the enthusiastic readiness with which the people con-
tributed to the rent. If thatexpectation were crushed
by the present measure, the re-action would be dread.
ful. He did not mean to justify all the proceedings of
the Association, if indeed all he had heard were true;

but from his own enquiry he had learnt but little, and
in spite of all he had heard or seen' be ohs still very ig-
norant of the real nacre of the Carbolic Association.
There were many others In the some state of ignorance
with himself. Measures so itopostant ought not to be
passed without some previous facts. He did not be-
lieve that the Association had done any berm in Ireland,
though he feared it had retarded the canse of Emanci-
pation in England. Where he could not justify the con-
duct of the Association he could excuse it. When they
were few in number and the subscriptions were trifling,
they were taunted as not being the Representatives of
the Catholic Body : and now,when their number had increased lad
their rent was large, they were accused of wishing to intimidate the
Government into concessions. He was of opinion that the Asso-
ciation ought to be left alone. If it were put down by violence
great confusion would be created in Ireland. It was impossible that
• the Catholics could remain much longer in their present condition.
They must either be reduced to the state of helots, or perhaps of ex-
termination, or they must be admitted to an equality of privileges
and rights with the rest of the community. Whether Entancipa.
tion were granted now, or at a later period, still it must be granted,
or the country would be reduced to the most lamentable state of
disorder, rebellion, and ruin—(Hear, hear, hear).
Sir N. COLTHURST said, that he had always been
the advocate of Catholic Emancipation, yet, as that mea-
sure was deferred on satisfactory grounds, he felt it his
duty, in the meantime, to vote for the proposition of
the Right Honourable Secretary for Ireland. Allowing
a great deal for popular effervescence, and the excited
passions of a large assembly, still he could not overlook
the systematic attempts of the Catholic Association to
irritate and disturb the country. They had for:ned
themselves into a most tremendous tribunal, and had
levied taxes by the most despotic agencies. The Hon.
Baronet read a letter from one of the agents of the As-'
sociation to a Gentleman in the South of Ireland, who
had persuaded his tenantry not to pay the rent.' The
letter-writer hoped this was riot tt rte, because, if it were,
he should be obliged to declare his name and offence to
the Catholic Association—(Cries of liter). He wished
to see Ireland governed, not in this way, but by the
medium of the laws. He never wished that Ireland
should hold its tranquillity by so precarious a tenure as
the will of a self-constituted Association—(Heer). The
present tranquillity of that country he ascribed to other causes, to
the judicious exercise of the extraordinary powers entrusted to Go-
vernment, to the improved condition of the people, and to the jjin-
creased attention paid to their wants, aided by English capital,
English habits, and English example—(heer). As he did not be-
lieve that the Catholic Association furnished any such desirable as-
sistance, and as it outraged Protestant feeling without advancing
Catholic Emancipation, he should vote for its suppression.
Colonel DAVIES said, that he was ready to admit
cases might arise where strong measures like the present
would be necessary and just. In any such emergency,
if the Catholic Association were brought within the
limits of the necessity, he would readily join in voting
for new and severer laws, and for aiding, if it were
necessary, such laws by the power of the Government.
But be did not believe this was now the case, and he
was convinced that the measure now submitted to the
House, instead of allaying any unquiet spirit in Ireland
would only inflame and make it more dangerous. Some
part of the measure appeared to aim at the Orange As-
sociations; but when he considered who the reputed
framer of the Bill was, when he recollected that Noble
Lord's (Lord Eldon) sagacity and known opinions, he
could not but suspect it to be done for the purpose of
blinding the Catholics of Ireland. If these Orange
Associations were put down they would start up in an-
other way, The Bill was directed against Societies
which excluded any one or more religious sects. Sup.,
pose the Orange Societies were put down, they would '
be opened as clubs to which all religions were eligibßis
But as all members would be elected by ballot, none
but Protestants would be chosen. The Catholic Asso-
ciation might do the same, and so far the Bill would be
a complete failure. As to the oaths to be taken, every
one who was acquainted with the state of Ireland must
know that the oaths were necessary, inasmuch as the
Orangemen were held by a stronger bond than that of
hatred to the Catholics, and a wish to retain their
usurped power. The truth was,,that the Bill struck at
the Catholic Association alone, and the Orange Asses]
ciations would be left untouched. He was not the ad-
vocate of Catholic Emancipation, nor of the Catholic
Association, but wished to keep a neutral position.—
It was beneath the dignity of Parliament to take notice of the
speeches delivered in that Association. The Right Honourable
Secretary had greatly overrated the Catholic Rent, when he stated
it at £160,000 per annum. It was evidently falling a until the
violent intentions of Government were made known, and then
the feelings of the people were roused, and they increased their
subscriptions. Even now there were many parts of the country
where not a shilling had been contributed. He did not believe that
Emancipation, if granted, would do so much towards tranquillising
Ireland, as would a better and more impartial administration of
justice. The present measure would not assist to improve the
administration of justice, but would exasperate and insult the feel-
ings of the Catholics ; and he should therefore vote against it.
Mr. DOGHEILTY began by observing, that he had
heard it said that the Catholic Question had no greater
enemy than the Catholic Association; and if that were
an opinion which required any confirmation, it would
have been afforded by the speeches of the two Honour-
able Members who last addressed the House. In that
House he (Mr. llogherty) had no opportunity of giving
any opinion on the Catholic Question, and out of doors
be had studiously abstained from it. His ardent wish
undoubtedly was, that the Catholics might obtain the
objects which they sought, and he trusted that no ob-
stinate perseverance of the enemies, nor would-be-re.
presentative: of the Catholics, would prevent him
giving that vote which he. intended to give whenever
that great question should come before the Houset It
was his wish—indeed, it must be the wish of every one•
of those who sat around him, to take the popular side
of the question : but on a subject so difficult and com-
plicated, he respected the opinions of those who had,
after a careful investigation, conscientiously arrived at
a different conclusion. He was sorry to have been led
so far into the subject of the Catholic Question, which
was not immediately before the House, but it was so
mixed up with the other question, that he could not g 0
into the discussion of that other subject, without avow.
ing his sentiments upon it. He felt that be should be
wanting in his duty to his constituents, if he did not
.say that the Association now existing in Ireland had
been carrying on for a length of time proceedings ut-
terly irreconctleable with the Constitution, and that there
did exist an alarm among all classes of persons, not
Orangemen alone, but all rational persons, not heated
by party spirit, from observing the tenour of their pro-
ceedings. It was calculated, by perpetually holding up
mistatements of law and fact, to irritate the people
against the Government and although the Hon. Gen-
tleman (Capt. Maberley) had stated thaehe was present
at one of the Meetings,nt which he did not observe much
intemperance, either of conduct or language, he (Mr. D.)
could only say, that the Hon. Member had been extremely
fortunate in his cfioice of the day on which he visited
them ; but be (Mr. llogherty) had read the whole of
them, as published by a Paper which was their avowed
organ; and he did sty, that there never existed an As-

sociation, that day after day, end week after —week'
had even presumed to put. forth statements of such in
inflammatory- nature. It was not contended that the
Association was a good one, and he, believed there were •
few persons but would admit that it was an evil. and
not a necessary evil. If such rut Association were at-
tempted to be established in this country, it would be
put down in one week ; if then, such a Society was
dangerous in England, what must it be in IrelandP
—With 'respect to the administration of justice,—he
would say, and he spoke from an experience 'Of some
years in that country, that the. administration of justice
was equal in its application both to Catholics and first
testants. For the truth of this, he would not ask the
House to rely on his unsupported assertion, for he would
confidently refer them to the minutes of evidence
taken before the Committee for enquiring into the state
of Ireland, which had been laid on their table beat d4y
The first witness who spokoon that subject was
Blackburn; the second was a Gentleman of great re-
spectability, who had been the Circuit for twenty years
the third was Mr. Justice Day, who, in answer to the _
question whether, from his observation, persons had as
muck confidence in the administration, of justice as
in England? he answered, that in his opinion, justice
was very fairly administered, and the Jut ie., composed
of equal, and sometimes unequal, numbers of Catho-
lics and Protestants, had behaved well. The Grand
Juries were not composed in the same proportion, as
the Roman Catholic Gentry bore but a small proportion.
to the Protestants. He was asked whether verdicts
had been given by Juries with any reference to religious
feelings? and he replied, that religion never seemed
to have entered into their imaginations—(A
He apprehended that no future Judge would be able to
give such evidence, if the House permitted the conti-
nuance of the Catholic Association ; file he would put
it to the House, whether, to use the language of the
day, such a Joint Stock Company, for carrying on pro-
secutions, could exist, and not taint the administration
of justice? The House had been told that the Rent
was a voluntary contribution ; but those persons knew*
little of the state of Ireland, who believed there was such
a redundancy of wealth in that country. This Associa=
lion were not representatives of the people elected;
they were adopted, and adequate for air the purposerof
mischief; and cf the two, he would rather have had the
Catholic Committee ; inadequately as that was consti-
tuted, it yet had a portion of the Catholic Gentry in it.
Whatever might be the seeming, he was satisfied many
of the Catholics were not cordial in their support of the
Association; and he thought that if the Association did
not grow worse by time, and (fr, an the unanimous ex-
pression which he anticipated of the sentiments of this
House) feelthe necessity of changing their conduct;
there would be a separatioa of all the respectable part
of the Society. If the Roman Catholics did not sepaa
rate from the Association, they would indefinitely post-
pone the consummation of their wishes. He perfectly
subscribed to the opinion, that the tranquillity of Ireland
was mainly owing to the wise, firm, and impartial con-
duct of the distinguished Nobleman at the head of the
Government there; and he cordially subscribed also to
the opinion of Sir N. Colthurst, that lie would not owe
the tranquillity of that country to anything but the law. He had
that confidence in the good sense of sense of the members of that
Association, that if a strong expression of the Association being un-
constitutional was expressed hy the House, it wou!sl be unnecessary
to double your army. Sure he was that Lord Kenmare and Lord
Fingal would never lend themselves to any pettifogging attempt to
evade the law, when it should be once enacted. That there' would
be no resistance he was persuaded, from the example of the Vulva-
teer system, which was put down by a single Resolution of the
Irish Parliament.
, Mr. D. BROWNE said, that the great evil-of Ireland
was the false position in which the people were ',laced
with respect to etch other ; when criminal prosecutions
were carried on in that country, the question always
asked was, " Are we to have a good Jury ?" and by a
good Jury, was meant a Protestant Jury ; but that, he
did not say, was the fault of the Jurymen, but of the
situation into which they were forced by the Govern-
ment of the country. Neither did he complain of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) when he insti-
tuted prosecutions against either Orangemen or Catho-
lics; the rectification of this erroneous position of the
people, and placing the Catholics in the same situation
as the Protestants, was the only remedy for all these
evils. Whatever might be said of the Catholic Association, of this
he was satisfied, that it bad united together the Catholics in Fatgland,
as well as in Ireland; and was, in fact, the greatest step'that their
cause had gained for twenty years past. He wis not prepared to say
that the existence of the Catholic Association wire, abstractedly con-
sidered,in the spirit of the Constitution, but he would say, that it was
as small an evil as could be expected, considering their situation.
Mr. WM. WILLIAMS did not approve the conduct
of the Government in- bringing the subject before the
House at the present time, bus from the present state of Ireland,
In which religious differences appeared universally to prevail ; aid
if this measure were rejected by the House it would be atritanPla
to the Catholics, which he considered as an evil, and on that
ground be should support the measure.
'Mr. DENNIS BROVs'NE supported the measure.
He said, till it was mentioned in that House be bed never heard of
either Protestants or Catholics carrying their religious prejudices
into the Juryy Box.
Mr. DOMINICK BROWN explained.
Mr. R. MARTIN was perfectly ready to admit the
statements made by the Right Hon. Gentleman when
he brought in the Bill; but granting them ante shoild
feel it his duty not to give his consent to the Will, as he was per-
suaded it would fail in its effects. The Don. Baronet had formerly
repudiated the Claims of the Catholics. It would not advance the
Catholic Claims, if the Members against it. were out of the Cabinet.
He should vote for the motion.
Mr. WAR RE should decidedly vote againit the mo-
tion, as it would neither restore tranquility to Ireland,
nor preserve the tranquillity that at present dwelt there.
The state of Ireland required a different remedy. lit
the County of Tipperary, out of 497 committed under
the Insurrection Act, 4.61 had been acquitted. Should
that Association be put down, it would revive-in another
shape. That Association arose from the anomalous
state of Ireland, and was the expression of the opinions
of six millions of people. He recollected the language
of the Foreign Secretary, when he stated what had
taken place, on the contentions with respect to the equal privileges
of all religions. By the constitution of Holland and Belgium, no
disqualifications took place from difference of creeds. In 014
country we stood still, while all the world was advancing in the
career of toleration. He believed the Bill would fail, and would
place the country in a worse state than it now was.
Mr. W. WYNN admitted, that the present measure
would not tranquillize Ireland, unless accompanied by
the great measure of Entaocipation—(Hear, hear.) He
lamented the existence of the Association from the in.
jury it had done to the Catholic cause. That areas
measure would take away the power of doing mischief.
—But it that could not be obtained, he must assent to
other measures for putting down the evil. if a Pro.
testant Association could address its Members by the
hatred they bore to Catholics, what would be the feelings
of the Catholic population ? He had always been hos-
tile to Orange Associations, because, besides the evil
they produced in themselves, they gave rise to such As'
sociations as the present. Wherever these Associations

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