Star.
London, England, 1822-02-28 00:00:00

had
but.

that
ustency
would

wi
this Bill to authorize its abolition ? There were scrap
.parts of the Bill in which he (Mr. Bankes) did not
altogether concur at the time it was brought
ts, al-
though he entirely agreed with its principle.
, Burke's Bill went to alioliSli-ss considerable number
of placer enumerated in/the preamble, which de-
, pended on the King's pleasure. Haut that Bill left an-
touched the-great offices of the Exchequer. With
regard to these, the 22d Report of the Finance Com-
mittee, under the head of Sinecures, observed, that
there were many sinecure establishments which
might be usefully risployed in rewarding great per-',
sonal services, so as to secure an honourable retreat
to persons who have received marks of public favour,
and who have sacrificed their time to the public ser-
vice, which they might have devoted to some lucra.
tive profession." This was the reason why Mr. Burke
left those offices untouched on the ground that it was,
the policy of every State to possess the means of re-
seal ding services of this description. A Resolution
declaring that in the absence of sinecure places some
other means should be placed at the disposal of the
Crown, to reward its servants with, was subsequently
passed ; and upon that he (Mr. Bankes) had long ex-
erted himself to bring in a Bill, which had finally
passed in 1817. In the years 1812 and 1813, he en.
deavoured to persuade the House to it, and he would
venture to say, that if the Hon. Member for Appleby
(Mr. Creevey) and the Hon. Member for Shrewsbury
(Mr. G. Bennet), were then is the House, they voted
with him on those occasions. At all events they j
supported the Resolution of 1810. Ile (Mr. Bankes)
had heard various opinions expressed as to the pro-
priety of supporting measures or men in that House.
He (Mr. Bankes)lookedto measures, and not to men;
and he did think it was a specimen of outrageous
adherence to men, when an Hon. Gentleman having
supported a Bill in 1813, specifically the same in
principle as that of 1817, because it was opposed by
his Majesty's Ministers, should now turn round and
exclaim against it as an abominable outrage—
(Hear, hear).—That Hon. Gentleman was pleased to
represent the operation of this Bill as causing the
nation to pay 42,0001. annually—an assertion
which he used as a sort of something to fill up every
place in his speech- which wanted a cheer. He per-
haps wished it to be propagated amongst the people

Hon,llember (14..
this account in a noit Bede ta- It F 1 1141;
up
was mixed with tents tielidtAriadistiosititor Thib
he might have sporodrbid rilliticauthrier Ads the Houilehail:
pardoned acts of hstemperancie MO warmth hie fp**
• .Me. CRUM repiied.Tilelion. Me4i cafe Castle'
16146, Noble' lord ' hat- said nothing to hho that he'
lons ihrong 11=Rtforward this motion. o man enuid an-
' mime dim of tie dough% his *Woos for Mere.
MssHZ N Aden* *IWO. people wOuld soot
to return to &wane= rather than the present'
.
system.—Tbe motion was then' to..
COURTS Oil JUSTICS Ix IRBLATIO.
Mr. S. RICE did not understand that any opikmition was to
ba made to the motion be had to make as to Irish Courts of
Justice. The Report as this subject wile presented to the NOUN
a few days before the close of the last Session ; and it stated that
the Returns made by. the Chkf Baron of Ireland and others
were not satisfactory. The Noble Marquis had promised that
the information required should be supplied. kid noviwishei
miaow what step. had been taken to ford* the Hesse with
this information ? He did not look witirjoilbesp to the plowed.
hip of the Commissioners, though where the ;public WWI was
concerned the utmost via:lance should hinted. He baited Is a
measure of this magnitude none' should be appointed whose
names were not above suspicion. A report prevailed that by a
unlisolicalation a greater sum was levied upon the suitors than
Wits necessary to remunerate the Officers of the Courts. He
wL.hsd for an account of the amount of the Fees, and concluded
by Moving for Copies of all Communications between the Judges
at Ireland and the Irish Goverunsent, from the 19th May, MI,
inspecting the Reports of the Commissioners appointed to in-'
quire into the Fees of Courts of Justice in Ireland.
GOULBURN stated, that a Report made by : 'Ol,
idles printed, would afford much information on the subject. He
mild also state to the House that further enquiries were in
that would throw :Kill further light ou the subject.
iat Coort appointments the Irish Government either had made
cc would make, their main object would be to appoint persosie
peeper ly
Sir J. NEWPORT had the highest opinion of the Commis-
stoners; but still a statement of the compensations to be made,
should be laid, at an early period, before the House. Should
the Report be made at a late period, the adjudicolon would be
Snal. In that case, he thought the adjudication should net be
final till next Session of Parliament.—The motion was then put
and agreed to, item. as.
Mr. RICE then Moved for several Returns connected with
the Irish Courts of Law, up to the year !Mi.—Ordered.
Mr. DICKINSON moved for a Select Committee to is.
quire into the laws and practice of Commissioners of Sewers,
and to report thereon to the House.—Ordered:
COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.
The CHANCELLOR of theEXC H EQU E R moved
the Order of the Day for the House resolving itself
into a.Committee to consider further of the Supply
to be granted to his Majesty.
Mr. HUME rose, and said he was so unfortunate

of Ungland—to be harangued at every Public Meet- when last the House was in a Committee of Supply,
ing, that the nation now paid 42,0001. a-year in as to have several of his statements contradicted by
pensions; and he supposed he (Mr. Bankes) would be the Hon. Secretary for the Admiralty, and contra-
held nut as the promoter of that profusion. But a dicted in a manner as decisive as could possibly be
short time ago the Act was in no operation, and did assutned—(Hear, hear, front the Ministerial Benches).
not draw a Shilling from the nation—(Hear, hear).— The Hon. Secretary had then stated, that he was
The Honourable Gentleman also represented that that reading from the Estimates that which he (Mr.
amount was the exclusive property of a Corporation Hume) would prove he could not have read from the
of Statesmen, as though any one could put his hand Estimates—namely, statements of the amount of va-
in and take out what he pleased, like an Insurance rious charges. He did not boast of being able to
Company, and that the King had no vote in the dis- make fine speeches like the Honourable Secretary.-1
tribution of it at all. Such a statement was really of It was not his forte to deal in sarcasm and ridicule.
a nature not only. too low to impose upon any one-in He always came forward with such facts and state-
that House, but even for Public Meetings. In what ments as he was enabled to collect from documents
could it differ from being distributed by the Crown? laid before the House; and he expected that any per-
Could it differ from being distributed by the Crown, son who attempted to answer him would do it in can-
since every sinecure pension was, and must be, signed doer and fairness, and not as the Hon. Secretary had
by the Crown? It was sufficient to refute itself, and done. He was free to say, that if they did not mc.^t
he would therefore leave it to be so refuted by its each other on matters of fact, he should be no match
own preposterous absurdity. The Public had actu- for the Hon. Member. He had a power within the
ally saved considerably, so far from having been bur- House, and a power without the House, which he'
dened with anything additional, by the abolition of (Mr. Hume) did not possess. The Hon. Secretary
places. When the Eon. Member for Appleby raised had an intimate connection with -Ministers, and all
an outcry against the right of granting these pen- the details of office were open to him ; it was, there-
sions, it would be but fair to consider whether, when fore, unpardonable in him to err. But if he (Mr.
they prevailed on the Crown to pass the Bill in clues- Hume) made a mistake in any details, it was only
tion, it gave up anything in lieu of it. His friends, what any Member placed in.his situation was liable
if he had any, could not vote for the repeal of that to. Now, though he might not be able to distin-
Bill without admitting that they were either in error, guish wood from stone, or ships from barracks, he
inconsistent, or factious,when they voted for it before. trusted that he had discernment enough to distinguish
The House would never, on such grounds as the Hon. facts from fallacies! (Hear). This was all he claimed.
Member had given to support his motion, consent to He was a practical man, and, on the night to which
withdraw from the Crown that which they had given he alluded, he merely moved for a Return of the
as an equivalent for valuable rights Which the Crown prices of provisions at different stated periods.- i
had given vp. if they took away this Act, as honest He, being a plain matter-of fact-man; had wanted to
men, they must return to the Crown the possession know the reason why the same amount was required
of the sinecure offices. He (Mr. Bankes) had coutri- for provisions when they were at one-half the price,
buted hishumbleshare towards persuading the House, as when they were at the highest price? The House,
against the wishes of Mr. Percival and his Noble however, had decided that no reason ought to be
Friend, to deprive the Crown of their valuable privi- given, and he had nothing to say further upon thati
leges,and he would not consent to re-invest the Crown point. But there were two important facts to which
with them, at the same time that he was sure no he begged now to call the attention of the House.
'Minister would venture to recommend it—(Hear). He had stated that tire total Navy Estimates for 1817
• Mr. BEN-NET denied that he had agreed with the had been 5,985,0001. and that this year they were
hushing= of Imo, for heaves not then in Parliament. In 1815, 489,0001. more. The Hon. Secretary to the Admi-
le pediltr did war for the-abolition of sinecure &Fri* and ratty had told him that he had fallen into is little bit
be per
aar Member should now Praia" a DIU 10 abash of an error htie for that 671,1011. ought to have
the einenire places which yet remained. But in 1817 be voted
added '
with had Ham maid (my. Creevey) against this ten, Bic which Dee to e Estimates of 1817, and that if that
was-nowthe subject of consideratiOn. If be were to say who sum had been added he would have found six mil.
was the Blessbee who had voted most constantly for waatefid lions odd, He (Mr. HUme) had stated that it ought
extravagance, and yet nibbled at pence, be should say it was the to be added. He had now vitrified, both by the vote'
and. by the Estimates, the statements which he had
for Corps Cods Cacitiale".inanlcyWainuasiratcheerCerriomusittneetbleio wnrctucht"aberof the
pablle rho* -the Greerrain hag from the palate, Things then made. An Honourable Baronet (Sir H. Parne4
Gr • bad received 5e40,0001 the late Martinis of Buchkok and the Honourable Member for 'Rochester (Me.
iteni,4BBo.Booc,frad ligathanherseialkann• Thn.. 'than WWI Bernal) had assisted him in this verification. He
likrreadeedAlaum° sha rall° IssalseP "has site Had. would now spew that the Honourable Secretary had
Gentleman's stannsent, they wdahl beg= ter Wait that the
Croviti••waste belch quits We; but the Craws had yet toe- altogether in' error in the contradiction whiCh
math . tematmei.—(llter, hear). The crown yet gar= be had attempted to give him-(Hear, hear, hear).
la penskaw, And he knew he did not exaggerate, to the He (Mr. Hume) had stated that the. EstiMates, for
ot4 brio& no less than £464,000 aliaal and yet the HlNlalls.' 1817 had been-5,985,0001. The, Hon. Secretary, not
aids. Glendale= talked of• leaving the Crown bare—(Heer).--
Rm. they, city better enmity new thaw Wand), that dam' *time that 671,000 k had •been added to pay off a debt
wand not be Oren away for purposes of pulitield intrigue, whs.& remaining from a fotmer'year,'- had added that sum
men-wan• allowed to an**olol peHa `btu al the 'brined in order to find the Estimates for that year. This,
&chylous? This was the brews species al politlailtesenen. their, had heat ho(mr. *me's) 24llegnsin—(Hear,
He knew news rights in ski Crown but for the good of thew). ,
pie, and there was no right in the people so meted as that all hear, from the MSl*olo.l4' B*. "511. would' a round
taking care-of their property. The inglissnee of the Crown was very clearly statefiliglith of tiiislin'itite
too great in both HOLM& Oil Padianallas and thcaulthfin -Cott peger diet Repair it etas
•

. ~• . rt 100 Act
Elie .- TOSlsper
thstamount, which was. riamesa Bit. said
diltt H. Secretary, ." I shall coiripletelfshr 11(34
foiridatithl'the VON Member for Aber een4l
his siatenients, and. thaa ,12.1-Anoj not know a ship
a dock-yard.". Thelion. Secretary had clearly
understood the head afbhargergibelsuilditig and re-
pairs:foe he had' prOfesied to 'take him (Mr. Hu tire)
up on his own position. Repairs and buildings now
-formed three items, and three votes ; hut till last
year they were not in separate (antis. The printed
fOrm in which they. now appeared had been intrO-
duced by the Hon. Member Tor Appleby. " Perhaps,
said the Him. Secretary, t. the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen is not aware that there ate certain divi,ions
in the Naval Estimates.' fletMr..Hume) had once
said; a tear and wear,"- instead Of a wear and tear."
The Iloa.Secretary was at perfect liberty to use his
wit apes qrcla tnpics, if he would only speak truth—
(Load clews and lawihkrfrom Ooth sidesafthe House).
He (Mr. Hume) was quite willing to bear such witty
attacks, for he admitted that be that goes to war
must take his chance of blows. One vote then was,
that which he had called " tear and wear"—(Henr,
hear, from the Ministerial sick).—He was glad tll'at
this was understood, for he hoped the Hon. Secretary
would find no possibility of evading the question.—
The second vote was for repairs. The third was for
building, re-building, and repairs. What surprised
him was, that the same public journal to which he
had alluded gave this statement of his correctly
enough. He had it in his hand for the satisfaction
of the Hon. Member. It was--
Wear and tear £6,131,155
Ordinary Repairs
Building, re-building, and repairs (the Hon. Se-
cretary said this was not £5,000,000) - 8,566,898
He supposed the Honourable Secretary would still be
able to make out That there was here an error of
2,000,0001. The total was 17,200,0001. The accu-
racy of the Honourable Secretary, on this occasion,
had been of a piece with his information and correct-
ness, when he had been asked what the price of pro-
visions had been for the two last years, and had said
he could not tell. It was of a piece with this to have
told him that he was 11,000,0001. in error. He (Mr.
Hume) was not aware that he had ever made a state-
ment to the House which was open to contradiction.
He had always stated facts and sums as he had found
them in authentic documents—(Cheers from the Op-
position side).—He willingly agree.i with the cheering
which the Honourable Secretary had received from
the other side, and to say that the Honourable Se-
cretary had rode off in triumph, if the sums he had
quoted were not to be found in official docuitients.
He was willing to be foundered by official contradic.
Lion; but he hoped that in fairness and candour 'Mi-
nisters would not state facts in contradiction withotit
documents to support them. He had but one object,
that was to let the truth appear before the House and
before the country. On this occasion he would say
that he had been unfairly and unhandsomely treated,
and had met with unparliamentary usage—(Hear).
The sum of 1,781,2351. the House had been called on
to vote. He had called-for accounts and explanations
of the charges: the House had, however, refused to
accede to this demand. He, therefore, now moved
" That, in order to enable the House to judge of the pro-
priety of voting the public money for the support of the Naval
and Marine Establishments and Ordnance for the Sea Service
for the year 1822, it is expedient to have such Estimates in de-
tail before the House, as shall point out for what specific ser-
vices the sum of 1,781,2351.1 s to be appropriated."
Mr. CROKER had not doubted the since' ity of
die Ben. Gentleman ; but on 'the present occasion be had plungtd
damper into the mire. He could inure the Hon. Member that
ell his (Mr. Croker's) statements had been drawn from the
printed papers before the House. He could also assure ite Hon.
Mintser, that the only two speeches of his own he had evtr cor-
rected, were, one on the subject of the Duke of York, and tbq
ether upon the Catholic Question. But he could state, that for
the last two years he had not written a line in a Newspaper—
(iihar).—Had he (Mr. Croker) been in error, there was no ne-
esteety for the Hon. Gentleman waiting so long before he at-
oalepked to contradict his statement. The sum (as stated by the
lion. Member) had been A5,300;000.; and he (Mr. Crete-)
had said, in round numbers, that it was .1t18,000,000. An lion.
,' Friend of his had told him, on the day in question, that Mr.
k Hume would say, that the Estimates of the present year were
' greater than those of 1817, by riot taking certain items into
view. He (Mr. Croker) said he thought if hardly possible • but
when the Hon. Gentleman, had made the mistake, his friend
whispered him, " Did I not tell you so r—(Losisi faughtee.)—
' That conversation had passed in the presence of two or three
Members. In the present year the expense of the Navy was
£5,500,000.; whereas, in the year 1817 the expense had been
£7,600,000. He had understood the • Hon. Member to hva
stated, that 17 millions had been expended on the Navy since
1817. The lion. Gentleman, in his reply, had not stated that he
computed from 1815.—(Mr.. Hunt, across the table, " I did."l—
CROZIER resumed.—" Then there was no necessity for repeht..•
ing it to-flight." In the Navy Estimates there was a distinct vote
for the building of ships. He was aware that the lion. Gentle-
man exercised diligence, but not due diligenco, else he could
never have fallen into such mistakes. The Hon. Member, to
make out his estimate, bad taken in the wear and tear, and also
the expense of the Beet afloat—(Hear).—lle ( Mr. Hume) might
have stated the expense of the Navy at 100 millions, by including
the wear and tear of all the years of the war, as he had included
the wear and tear of 1815. expense of the Navy from 1817
had been £5,700,000. The Hon. Member bad that night moved
foraea nev4tri more pointsaloonof
certain rams i
speech. The payof
points; but hemightal at %
thehaveMarines
movtda
i
was £216,000, and not 060,000, as stated by the Hoo..Gen-
tleman. What be bad said, he merely applied to the figures
of the Honourable Gentleman, who was grossly, though ho.
twain deceived. • •
fir. BERNAL defended the statements of thelifauthee foe
Aberdeen. •He osuld not companies*. the *tertiary' in
having pnrsued a straight-forward path.. Did 116 moan iii deny,
that tar the space of seven years, seventeen addling bad Olen
eipendea on the NIPPY generallyirked lead utteer
sew'state thas seventeen edam and. b"l'ot, °Wended leetile
et ship: •' He repelled the charge inaccuracy thrtrem
-o'tlie.Fkieretory of the Admiraky against the Member for
'M. Mire were Gentlemen on his side the kieete,
'4 difite't enjoy either the salary or easolaumes all

j:

4%.1

,814ini, ;-,-den;-16.aff. ccrifmeommorineeemw_actlyies a ssurpmedr 7-- cd—siaiiiiiiii . ~,,Ar.p.,, .4, 0. *en T
ate' Misirifis, rise • ' .§ - 1 °lb. i11f4.. eratuarania4 Monet poblieasedd7re w'Jkli hid bees.
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lives. ifir bet iletterlhe 41 -. , ... . .
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.... .pl #1410.444.4Papar 404 14 4.411 r • •
reap ittr 0 4' Etti . ' " tatter:li" '' ' ' " I'''' ' • ". ' ... . of
41Ifor, harriirWaVdieblember (Mr. Creeiret) gni_ lieu ... !!" zoloolet RPM,. A *..,„; ,44. ,4 ',; /to.: ult 9
kldleiras•4llllllAtilobowthiAteof ditifthiloti. W. • • -Thim .he Amid Int ' irgek V , ibsultgAg
'` .3, iiiiiftleetti, 1411firpilisal Arlotyliiiirot slit Obit 'tt_ 611.111400010 • edit of *bloat -.•- . ,
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hid itot the •adostabw_ef lilt -/na irsilstatide t' .."7. 911T21%, '• we . ,•• fa, -- '' Att* r • .- ... ' 4'.`
borne the preleatsint lie •eeeld not plea the lite 'cwt if SW AI, , ' ' 4''sl,l), ••. _l.l . ' ..,".00#14, WOE* '• . • -
same absent% as' tagardotrifirtelolution on Which ow (114'111OunaoNdoioor
the BM was famines far Itwolhapptwed, that °titbit, t? "Vtrvit. ' lit hit Akerbcwakis iial WA& 44,4 -Oa. riltir dientiht; did . not blow.
very day, in the division on ibtrprilvlous 'debate, the 'fi—nisi.6 i ,e;fiL_Pergiiii.lhoill 1,..„040 I.6lllfieloond/therdsbateoio tbr lie wielded bis •91,i‘n
esit4,totitio
Tellers entered' upon the iotraidsteobre, Mr. Critevey. 's ink --"aliaiibill.'"="4lo ; l'lrts'' Oillit, I.' .. s.A.. k„1114 Nee uPoMd ,
—(lfesir)vmand lard V4sebtibt Mon. He Wished iniftelad ft robjefibeim • rusitisir to the erwriortgelierie# % ,ii. . 901. 14W1,t,
..kadt n
that Noble lard were the* present,. that be might 5:,.._ft.,, lib Need -lobo, vobkims- ' tisVaast ..• etts-sitin she Boa. Sane:
say a word or two to bins on the dialect of his toot ih": . . .07914..11.4.1,1416k.41,41/14:Z=Peach Ord hula aeuiPlitabf Pervirreid•-94.).
sistenCy of opinion with regard to this Bill. •He mends amilito ha** .4,o7yrraiiilEstir biantliaord'lmilthlnlitibiliiidg. iffed Itli thatirfer. •
would item* that patt of the cluessitin, however, to vlikasitarpfsillWaka et 01111emmdes. Veisidr 2 tifilViriiLliti) *tot-laid. tredifit upon the
proceed to me of infinitely mere importance, vie. bad Weird In do inantion of annose: I* Tar Abgefir4-illd -- ~ from OR t4Milinati,4_,
~,t 4:-*llie. ye hod
whether anything had occurred since the passing of lir" seas klaat.m=ltrlalbiitivtilt, 'iifitratp t 9 . itie.atCY page eq. Jai: AMPoprtstion Act
•

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