Star.
London, England, 1807-04-25 00:00:00

INDIA.

Mr HORNER gave notice of a 'Motion for Wednefilay, for
the production of Papers relative to the Polygar War, adding,
that he thould bring this motion forward after the bounds with
regard to the Carnatie, which an Honourable Bapnet (Fir I'.
Tula on) had announced his intention to bring for w ard, Ihould he
difpored of.
Sir P. FRANCIS laid, that he meant it the cote,: of next week,
upon a day which early in the week, he should take ocrafion to
mention, to bring forward a motion for the produdion of all the
Papers and Information received by Government or the India
Company, with refped to the late Tranfadtions at Vellore, or the
probable confequences of chore tranfadi,ms. At the fame time,
the Honourable Baronet feting the Chancellor of the Ezebtquer
in his place, took °matron to ilk whether it was intended, on the
part of Miniftu a, to propofe, or to fupport any Grant to the India
Compaay from the public money, by loan or otherwife, in the
courfc of the prefent Seflions : and if to, whether it was meant that
, fuch Grant fhould he made before the Ratement of the gencral
' concerns of India (the India Budget) fhould be laid before the
Horde.
The CHANCELLOR of the FXCHEiZIER, in reply, Rated,
Government did nut entertain the intention to which his queftion
referred.

THE POOR.

Mr. WHITBREAD moved the order for the fur-
ther confederation -of the Parochial School Bill; ob-
ferving, that it was his intention to propofe the re-
committal of the Bill, in order to introduce farther
amendments. The Hon. Member obferved, that
whether it was deemed expedient to make any alte-
ration in the general fyltem of the Poor Laws or not,
the palling of this Bill would not at all interfere with
that objeEt, and therefore could not be fairly argued
ith reference to fuel' an alteration. This formed
the firil pat t, quite unaltered, of tie Bill which he had
originally fubmitted to the Ilottle fn far back as Feb-
ruary lalt, and to which no objeCtion was made,
although before the Houle and the Country fence
February !aft.
Mr. ELLISTON thought it highly advifeable, for
the purpofe of affording an opportunity to the Houle
and the Public for the fullell confidcratiou of this
fobjea, that this as well as the other Bills propoled
by the Hon. Gentleman fheuld Itanti over until the
next Seißons.

Mr. ROSE was lorry that there was not in the plan
prop, fed by this Bill that defirahle combination of
endeavour at once to communicate indult:y and in-
firtmetion to the children of the poor. It pimpled to
give them two years education, front the age of 7 to
14 years of age, and according as it appeared to him,
to place them for thofe two years in a flare of va-
grancy. If fo educated, he was mach afraid that t:.e
effea would be to unfit children for the rurfuits of
labonr, to place them above their bufinefs. Ile knew
hum his own experience, that it was difficult to per•
fuade the children of the poor to go to fchool, and
0111 more to work. So adverfe indeed were they
to the latter, that he could not help conlitlerinp, it
neceffary that the Magiftrates Ihnuld be invefted
a power of moderate coertion over the children of the
poor. The Right Hon. Gentleman adverted to a
'Taft which he wrote fome years (ince, recommend-
ing the eftablifhment of Maritime Stools, in which
from 70 to-80,000 children might he educated 14 lets
titan half the expenfe which the fame number of chil-
dren already colt the parifhes, while this fyflem of
education, combining at the fame time both labour
and inftruZlion, would naturally difperfe to the naval
profeffion a volt number of the youth of the country.
Mr. FULLER was for poftponing the finaldifcuf-
fion of the bills, and expreffed his apprelienfions that
the plan of education propofed by the prefent bill
would be prodalive of an immediate increafe of ex-
pence, without any immediate effect that would pro-
mile an early alleviation to the Poor Ratec. On the
contrary, it would increafe, probably, to fixteen (kil-
lings in the pound, the Rates already fohigti as eight
(billings.
Mr. ROSCOE thought, that the heft poflible
ground work for producing the great objet under
conlideratiln, was the education of the lower orders,
which, when obtained, might afterwards be turned
' to their advantage in maritime life, 11110 d-that be
their dellination—withont it, labour would be their
only fource and reliance, but by education they would
be enabled to add (kill to labaur ; and he iiillanced
the happy effeas of education in Scotland, fince it
commenced in the year 1696, at which time there
were no lefs than 200,000 beggars in that country,
where now there was fcarcely a tingle pauper to be
found depending on public cha, ity. He thought the
plan propofed by this Bill fimple, plain, and piai•
cable. He read an extra& from the Pamphlet of
Mr. Malthus, in approbation of the plan, and con-
cluded by giving it his (import.
Mr. CALCRAFI' was an advocate for further
delay. In order that the fyflem of the Poor Laws
(mould be fully confidered, lie thought it would be
wife to appoint a Committee, at an early period of
the next &Ilion, to inquire into the fulled. The
Honourable Member argued in favour of the idea of
combining perlimal labour with in(truflion ; and,
after complimenting the fyllem of education purfued
by Mr. Lancaller, took occakon to mention, that the
merit of originating that fyftem did nth belong to
Mr. Lancaller, but to Mr. Bell, who was k friend of
his, and who had ellablithed the fame (Pam, long
(ince, at Madras.

The Hon. Mr. ERSKINE found it impollible for
him to give a filent v;;te upon the fohjell. He could
not help haEing this Bill as a meafore aufpicious in the
highelt degree to the induftry, the morality,the happi-
nefs, and good order of the people of this country. He
was happy to give an example of the praaical die&
of education in the country from which he came
(Scotland.) It was to that that he attributed the
total exemption of Scotland from the heavy burden
of the Poor Laws, which opprefs fo much the mid-
dling clafles ci fociety in this country. It was edu-
cation which gave the poor of Scotian.] too much
pride and fpirit to apply for parochial relief in their
own country; and it was education which enailled
them to diflinguifh themfelves fo much in every line
when they left it. As to the emigrations from Scot-
land, they were generally fuppofed to proceed from
the barrennefs of the country, and from the principle
of the proverb " need makes the old wife r: ;" (a
had &nigh; ) but he" confidered that it rather pro-
ceeded from their talents being cultivated by ccjuca-

I:

tion, and their having,. in this refpdt, an advantage
over the people of in Al nations to which they et,.
grated. Scotland was, to be lure, a barren country,
and yet there were no people on earth more ditlia,
guifhed in horfi:ulture. Scotch gardeners were tote
found every where through England and Wales, aai
it was not only in this art that his countrymen er,
celled, but in fuch a variety of alts and fciences, th,t
unlefs the Houfe were to attribute it entirely to
ingeniuri Scotorrim, they mutt allow that thole advas,
gages had been derived by the diffution of education,
and therefore they might expea the fame refults from
an equal diffuffion of it in this country. The Scott
had alfo learnt the virtue of frugality from educatios,
as it gave them all that pride that was neceffary to
mainta;rl themfelves in independence.
Kr.DAVIES GIDDY mentioned, that in the pan
of England that he lived in, (the county of Corn.
wall,) education was pretty generally diffufed ; at
teat In mum of it, that Aiwa every perfon there
had learned reading, writing, and fometlting of
arithmetic. He thought that it was eafy to perfuads
parents, that it was to their advantage that their
children {Could be brought up in the habits of indaL
try. He thought that Education would not be the
better for being made compulfory ; he thought it as
better that it timid, be voluntary, and not forced;
that " it fhould defcend like the gentle dew of Elea.
yen," and be received as a general bleffing. He dii
not think it would be eary to induce parents to cos,
fent to any forced fyttem of education for tlsi?
children.

Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE gaveueredit to Mr.
Whitbread for his intentions; but thought jhat tht
fuccefs of thofe meafures was very doubtful. le
had himfelf experienced the difficulty of 'minding
parents to fend their children to a fchool in his
neighbourhood, although luppotted entirely at his
own expence.
Mr. SHARPE was furprifed at fo many Gentle.
men coinciding entirely with the principle of his Hoz
Friend's Bill, and yet calling for nothing but 44
delay, dn'ay. They all of them. however, agreed, that
the children of the poor ought to be educated: and
that the education ought not to be confined merely
to the fchool or the nurfery ; but that it flrmld be
fuch an education as would qualify them for fome
profitable employment. If all other things flaould be
forgotten that were taught in the two years education
prefcribed by this 11,11, the hours of attention and in.
duliry, of obedience, good order, and difcipline,
could not b- In loon forgotten. It was impoffible
that this education thould not confer fume advantage
upon them.
Lord PORCHESTER fupported the motion: he
viilhed, however, that the Bill thould go into a
Committee, in order to receive thofe improvements
ollit:11 would render it 171,r:: generally acceptable.—
' Scotlitnd had been often brought forward as an ex•
ample in the COMIC of the debate on the quelion.—
The true ar;trment• to be derived in favour of the
example of Scotland was this—that there was a
voi.l occafi.oted in England through Brian) inaaivity
and Britifh ignorance, which was filled up by the
better educated natives of Scotland. It was ridi-
culous and chimerical t ) fay, that by educating the r
lower claffes it would diminith the number of agri.
col,nral labourers, by inducing them to aim at higher
employments ; it might be inducing
likewife. that by
educating the people to maritime employment, it
would alfo take from the number of agricultural
labourers. He wi(heJ the Bill to ga into a Committee,
becaufe it would be perhaps divelled of thofe parts of
it which were operofe or impraElicable in execution.
Mr. ROSE expla:ned. He had always raid that
no man could rate more highly the value of educating
the poor than he did; and he had Paid fo in various
publications—(a loud laugh).
Mr. SIMEON thought there was no need of going
to the North for illutirations, nor to fay much to
that Houle upon the value of education. He thought
it deferable that every one Paould be taught to read,
brit did not fee the neceffity of teaching every one
to write. He difapproved of an addition a one
(billing in the pound on the Poor Rates, which would
be the Kea of this Bill, laid on for the profpeta, at
fame years hence, afforded to Come poor educated
perfon of railing himfelf from his fituation. He ceo
tended that it was by no means to be admitted tha,
becaufe Scotland, in 5698, had received an ettabliti
ment of kharls, and had profited by it, therefore Eng•
laud, in her present 'tate, in 5807, fhould
adopt fimilar regulations. He bad taken great pains
to examine the time of the poor, and thould partial•
lady fpeak of the town he reprefented (Reading),
which contained to' 000 inhabitants, of whom 7,500
were poor ; bust hardly a chili of ten years old was
to be found who had not learned to read, at fome of
the threepenny fchoois which are kept by the poor oh
people. He law nn necetlity for writing or arith;
metic. He knew of no deficiency in the number o;
candidates for Banker's Clerks, and fuch fituations
He condemned she mode in which the Bill was to be
carried into tired, but praifed highly the Sunday
Schools, which he regretted he found great difficulty
in prevailing upon the poor people to attend.
cenfured the conduit of thole in the higher chiles d
fociety, who thought the poor Ihould receive no edt
cation, but feil his objeaions to the prefent plan to be
radical and fundamental. His opinions refulted frog
experience, and not from fpeculatinn and theory.
Mr. G. vANsITTART was clear as to the pro.
priety of the landed intereft providing means of
teaching all poor per lons to read, but not quite In
clear of the neceffity of teaching writing to them.
In his own pa:ifh there were feveral cheap fchoois
for the poor, and a fubfroiption fchool for girls, be.
fides a Sunday fchool. It the plan was to overfet all
of them, it would do harm. He hoped it would be
modified in the Committee.
Mr.BRAGGE BATHURST had great difficolty
in oppofing a Bill, the objeft a which was to Indio•
rate the condition of the poor. His fentiments were
pretty nearly the fame as thole of tire preceding
Speaker. Thole who employed children were at
prefent very adverfe to fending them to any other
than the Sunday fchoois, and that would be a great
oblation to this Bill. He paid very high compli.
mints to Mr. Whitbread. but had ffrong doubts as
to the operation of the Bill.
Mr. WILBERFORCE would fay but a word or
two in favour of going into the Committee. No one
wks a greater friend than he' was to inttrufling the
1 poor, and he thought himfelf and the country highly
obliged to Mr. Whitbread for the very great, piing
he had taken, and the great zeal be had aleara iA

impertant bufinefs. The merit would belong to'
Lim of hiving laid the foundation.flone of that great'
fuperfirueture which he hoped to fee railed upon it.
But he thought that in fuch a work we muff go on
with caution, lea by any hafle we fhould create any
prejudice againft the meafure, which might prove of
the moll hurtful confequences. He law no probabi.
lity of the injury aiding from the difpofition of the
poor in confequenee of their receiving infiruCtion.
The beneficial cffests of the Bill mull, however, de-
pend greatly on the good opinion of the people. He
could not but rejoice to fee the Houle employed upon
fo good and fo great a wot k. The benefit to be
obtained by their labours, would be great, folid, I
prallical and permanent. He was not athamed
of acknowledging the fupeti irity of Scotland in this
infiance, in as great., meafure derived from her
fchools, to which might be afcribed much of that
moral order, and good conduEt, and thole doineltic
duties which were fo much praElifed there.
Mr. WINDHAM commenced by praifirg the intentions and
alms of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Whitbread), notwithftanding ;his
difference of opinion with him on this fubjed. The difordcrs corn-
plained of had better retrain, than to ufe a wrong remedy. He I
wanted much knowledge from local information. Th, prefent
point was only the quellion of education; but the national fund
was connected with that. No man could think or read on this
fubjed, without new thoughts, reflections. and bearings at every
WM He could not lbut himfelf up, and fay, I have confidered it
all. 11,!5 was a fubjed that peculiarly manifefted the thort-fight •
ednefs of human nature. We were about repairing a fyftem,
founded originally on what teemed pure benevolence, jußice, and
charity; and nos" we had found out all its irnpolicy and folly, and
were all quite agafp at Its dangers, and yet we wanted to eftablilh
fomething new before the Stffion was over. This fort of education
propofed, was not to give the poor knowledge, but only the means
of acquiring it ; but if the pa: :y could not tife them lately, why
lkould he poffefs theft inftruments and organs of potlible danger ?
and what a price to pay for them ! If by theft means they got
knowledge, and the art of thinking, it might he very will ; but was
the Haute fore, they were not giving theta only the means of ac-
quiring error? What will they read ?—the Bthic, or the Sunday
newfpapers, or perhaps, political trads ? When the teacher of
truth and the propagator of error both hood candidates for loch
petfons, which was molt likely to prevail? They would have
the conceit of imagining they knew fomething. It would he
fortunate for free Countries, could dif:uflioos he confined ex•
clufively to Chafe who were competent . tut that was impoff-
ble. A man was not a fit judge. in a cafe, merely becaule I e
had an intereft in it; otherwife he might be his own phy ft •
elan, and a child his own fchoolmalicr, for none had fo much
inter& in his improvement. There was no neceflity, however;
for encouraging fuch dircuffions. It would let in a large pro
portion who could not manage nor underhand fuch things:—
truth would gain nothing, and error a great deal. '111: force of 11
the mind in difeovering truth, was different froln phyfical forces,
Which might be accumulated to a given point; but if we let
on a great many minds, if they were not of a proper ltature
of undcrftanding and culture, we ihould not gain any thing by
our numbers. Multiply them without end, and we only multi
plied our etre rs. lie did not admire force, and grants and labo-
rious Cervices, to propagate any pro'ortion of this fort of know
ledge among the poor The cafe of Scotland did not aptly. He be-
lieved the habits, mat ryts, and morals of the pror there to be ette-
than here; but this did net all come front reading ard writing, sty
more than the laying of the man was tree, who law another hang.
ed for forgery, and exclaimed, ' All this co-oes from reading and
writing!' Ahnoft all nations differed much—parts even of the fame
nation—Ruffians, Aufhians, French, Dutchmen—and Fnglifh:
Scotch, and high ;but this veas not front reading and writing! Some
were more phlegmatic and heavy, others more lively. Political in.
Ritutions, old habit', climate, foil, the race. t 4, bred, all theft bad
their effects ! How can you t.ll a man in a etowd to be a
Frenchman? Why do we attribute to Seotchmen red hair Jn4
bigh eked bents ?—(a had largh ). Don't we fee provioci ti
differences here even among the higher claffes ? Why might net
the Scotehman he fond of reading and writing in cool*, quence of
his other habits ? Perhaps we arc putting collie for effed : or. at
any rate, both had their operation. In thi-! country, till lately, we
bad an oproriog arnagonift principle to the effedt of the poor laws,
that retardedtheir mifcbiefs ; but n.uch of that p'ide that elifliked
to go to the perilh was gone. When eircumftances preffed, then
came in that full tide upon us. In France there ma more litera-
ture expand,. d through the country than any wht.re die, but the
poor people who did not write were not the worn in the French
difordcrs. No, the cultivated people (et on the mobs, and advifed
all the Fuzillades and CmillothwJes, &c. When people cry out," See
What an unlettered mob will do," he would fey, Sec what a let-
tered cultivated mob would rffedt !" He doubted this meafure as
a great national benefit. We might make a number more of im-
peded thinkers; they would make many writers; thefe, their
readers ; and the 101 l would create Rill mere writers. There peo-
ple would be more acceffible to the intcrefted and defigning. 'Ve
might cure their poverty by reading and writing, about as eafily as
by teaching them to play on thefihre He then dwelt fame time
en Mr. Malthus's work, which be much approved. Of all things
politics Were molt deceitful in appearances. There was no need-
flty that a ..tan Mould write, becaufe he lived in a lettered country,
in fad he was all the better for the cultivation of the country. He
could not move about without participating of it. He lived by its
lights. The Right Honourable Gentleman concluded a very inge•
nious and brilliant fpecch, after various other remarks, with ex-
preffing his with that the bill might lie over till next Seffons.
Mr. WHITBREAD made a long and very able and animated
reply to the arguments that had been advanced againft his Bill,
which our limits unfortunately prevent us from entering into. He
defended the meafure on the various grounds of economy, policy,
humanitf.jullice, morale, and religious infti udion ; and adduced
a number of flaking fads from the hate of the poor children in
Charity Schools, compared with the immenfe number of tliVe
wholly uneducated in many pariffies. confidered the fund as
highly important to the plan, and read a patlage (tom a letter of
Mr. Malthus in apps bation of the Bill for education.
Mr. WINDHAM ceplained.
Mr. ROSE and the CHANCELLOR of the T XCHEQT,./FR
hid a few words, and the Houle went into a Committee without
a divilion.

The Chairman was ordered to rcrort ptar,refs--and the Corn-
n ittee had loot, to fit wain un Monday.
Mr. IRANI' it prefei.ted a Petition from Mrs. B.lrrow, In
euftody, in confecpterce of tome tranfadion relative to the Shretvf-
bury Elation ; WllO, upon the declaration of Mr. Halibury, a me-
dical gentleman, rtfpcdling her critical Efate of health, and on the
payment of her fee., was difchaegtd.
Adjourned at a Quarter before Tweltrc o'clock.