Star.
London, England, 1825-04-30 00:00:00

11,11MPPOPRIPWI
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He was not afraid of their wishing for the tythes ; but
he knew it was an essential part of the Catholic Church
to aim at jts own advancement. increase, and glees. it
looked upon every other Church not only as a nuisance,
bat as an usurper. If the Church were not nude completely de.
pgindent upon the State, the payment of the proposed 4'450,000 a
~/ear would be nut only far the support, but for the propakatiozs
el the Church.
MAMIE wished to bow from what funds tit
250,0001. was to come? There were 800.000 Dissen-
ters. who had SOO Clergy at stipends of 2001. each.
making a precedent too paltry he hoped for the House
to think of following upon the present occasion, Unlfsi
the money 'were taken from the Church, whiOt.wes Cl-
ready overpaid, he should not consent to' this tileature.
He therefore moved as ail amendment,, that a Select
Committee be appointed, " to intioire whether it is ex-
pedient that the Catholic Priesthood and all Dissenting
Ministers of England,lreland,and Scotland, should have •
annual stipends paid by the nation, and how limb' r
Mr. W. BANKES said, he looked upon this 'as it
most unreasonable measure—whom was it to. oblige P
Not the Catholics, for it had been declared in the evi-
dence that they would not consider it as a boob, and
would rather be without it. If it were intended to
oblige the Protestants, it would be well to consider how -
.moch pleased the Protestants would 'be sortie- riaii
hence, to find themselves saddled with a paytreia of
250,0001. annually ; and this was to be paid with ue-
any stipulation on our part as to a return. Neither
would it be fair upon the Dissenters, who would thus
be required to pay not only their own clergymt n and
the Protestants, but the Catholics too. If-this measure •
were to pass, there would bean end to all distinctions
of churches. Before he sat down, he %s mile! advert to
the reflexioni made upon the members of the goglish
Church by the Hon. Member for Winchelsea (Mr.
Brougham). He had talked of oaths being as common
in the Church as the breath of their nom i s; ar.el that
in taking a benefice the Clergyman took an oath that
he was moved by the Spirit. Now the Clergyman
took no such oath. He took the Oaths of Allegiance
and Supremacy against any .simoniactil practice, and
for canonical obedieice. Upon the other point the.
Bishop certainly put it to him in words saying, " [
toast," &c. to which the other answered by saying, " I
trust"—(Laughkr).—Gentlemen might laugh, but he
should contend that there was no oath used upon
this occasion. . .
Lord G. CAVENDISH apprehended no danger that
tt e Catholic Church of Ireland would be able to cope
with the Protestant, or fancy itself able to do so. 'He
supported the measure, because it was cue which wool&
tend to increase the respectability of the Catholic
teachers, and thereby to aid the course of education,
Ittri consequently of moral feeling, in Ireland. Being
convinced that it was only to the progress cif it struction '
that we could ever look for a reformation in the habits •
of the Trish people, be would vote for the grant to the priesthood,
even though it were not accompanied by the great measure of
Ensandpatioa—(Hear,hear).
Mr. Secretary PEEL imagined all patties would
agree in treating the present measure as quite distinct
from the proposition for removing Catholic disabi:ities ;
and rather regretted that any attempt had been made
to connect or couple the two questions together. It
was proposed, without ( is he thought) any explanation,
for the House broadly to declare that it was expedient
to provide by law for the future maintenance of the
secular Roman Catholic Clergy. We o ere to pay
250,0001. a year to the Catholic Priests, and to bare
no power in the nomination of them—they were to
receiye that large amount of money from the Govern?
mete, but to be in all respects independent of it,- and
free from its controul. L:oking at such a grant only
constitutionally,apart from any ttfeological consideration
altogether, it was at least one upon which it tehoved
the House to pause for information. It was said
that the Presbyterian body in the North of Ireland stood
exactly in the samesisuation in which it was now proposed
to place Catholics; but he denied the parity of the cases.
There was evidence before the Committee abovi stairs
as to that particular point—evi.sence which he desired
to quote,'but which he found had not been printed. The
Moderator of the Synod of' Ulster distinctly stated in
his letter, the manner of 'the connection between the
Presbytery of the North of Ireland and the Govern-
ment ; and his declaration came in -fact to this—ghat
there was scarcely any difference between the Presbya
terian system and that of the Established Church. Cora
tainly, if the Bill before the House did pass, hq should
so far agree with the Honourable Member who bad last
spoken, that, without any delay for consideration, he
I should say the thirty-nine Articles ought to be got 'rid
of; for, surely, after passing such a. measdre, no man
could ever again be called to subscribe tot hem—(Hear,
hear). The Honourable Gentleman oppesite smiled ;
he understood what was meant—it \vas intended to
quote what we had already done with respect to the
Ci;llege of Maynooth. But surely the cases were widely
different. We objected to the education of the Irish
Catholic Priests- abroad, and therefore' we fountlid a
seminary for them at home. But surely this tees tot
like providing IoQCI. a-year for every Catholic. Bishop s
15601. for Archbishops; and an income for every other
Clergyman. One effect of such a course, as it appeared to
him, would be to create a rivalry for influence between
the secular, Clergy of Ireland and the regular Clergy,'
He doubted, too, how far it would be possible for the
House to make such an arrangement as that contem-
plated without communication with the Pope. If the
Archbishops and Bishops were to receive a large salary.
Government might probably think some a teration in
the oath they took advisable; and Dr. Doyle, though
he was of opinion that this might be done, thougl.t, that
it could not be done dithout application to t 1 .See of
'Rome. Surely. if we were to pay the Catholic Bishops
of Ireland 1,0001. a year, it was too much that the Pope
should have the nominstion of them. At least, there
ought to be some stipulation that be should institute
the ferson recommended to him from Ireland. -At pre •
sent there was nothing to hinder the Pope trots nom -
na ing a foreigner, and no nomination but his soul I
have any force or value in Ireland. Let it be recollected
that we had made no provision fur the Episecrealisa.
Clergy of Scotland, who were of the same religion as
the Church of England.; and not having dose so, lie
could not see why we should commence our provision
for any other Church by giving a stipend to the Ca-
tholic Clergy. What would be the squad n of the
Dissenters, if this 1311 passed ? They would see the
Protestant Estabished Church provided for by. tithes,
and tl:e Catholic Clergy by taxes, to both of which they
(the Dissenters) se ere obliged to contribute ; bile, at-
the same time, no provision was made for them. Such
a measure as the present would, he contended, - be con-
trary to the spirit of the Revolution. it would be its
direct hostility to that spirit to select any religitin *Abet fr.nu the
Protestant Church as established by law, foe aesemseart lirJertaiser
and establishment.
Mr. C. W. WYNN was distinctly in favour of this

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