Star.
London, England, 1809-03-07 00:00:00

;ruin to our enemies would be to us of material
litene, •, so much as that it would be ir:urious to
~ • ,-.
:it rf liberty, and would be, therefore, an event
acceptable to that individual, who was the
inveterate enemy (f liberty all over the warld,
althotigh he had overrun Europe—had sub-
•:yd and erected thrones—and extirpated ancient
. ind had destroyed venerable institutions,
• t been able to triumph over that detestation of
enny, which by the favour of Pnoviurxer: yet
• :in so considerable a det,;ree. Of the three int-
vestions which had been brought under the
• • of the House, he allowed, with the Ho-
ie Gentleman, that this was the most Mi-
lt was attended with a peculiar circum-
,,,e on the first of those questions, the House
called upon to decide, before the documents
ig it, which had been laid upon the table,
• .I.`J by possibility have been read. On the second
;:' ie• questa ns the Houe had been called upon to
bje.re the documents respecting it had even
oroduced. But on the present question folios
ev,f.aice, adduced a twelvemonth ago, at the re-
::oa of the Hon. Gentleman, and his ti tends,
• the table : and yet, that Honour:till::
!:.td not chosen to refer to one tittle of it. The
etained in that body of evidence would prove
,s inisrepresentations that had gone abroad :
in tiro first place, prove that truth, so shame-
I.:ev ,enied, that in consequence of the Berlin De-
ce:e the commerce of the country had been nearly
before the issuing of the Orders in Council ;
Juld, in the second instance, shew the bene-
eitects which those Orders had produced.—
~plogized to die i louse for the necessity under
he felt himself to recal their attention to the
.;.':KC that had been given-ut their bar during the
ion. [The Hon. Gentleman here read the
azinas of several witnesses who were examined
in order to establish :.he facts which he
seacd.] He then proceeded to shew from the
-ac, that, in August, September, and October,
b the Orders in Council were issued, the rate of
i:r :ace rose to such a height in this country in con-
of the Berlin Decree, as to amount to an
e: prohibition of our trade, not only with the Cen-
t but wah America. How then could the Ber-
, :)-.'tree be represented as a mere letter and a
elf ? The effects of this Decree were also proven
the returns laid before the House by the Inspector-
( ..eeel tai Customs ; from which it appeared, that
tarty days previous to issuing the Orders in
fewer than sixty-live vessels in our ports
olied for permission to reland their cargoes.—
eeee ens had been so fully and completely proven,
1. • e elld not help being surprized at the false asser-
t...., of a periodical work devoted to the opinions of
on the other side, which went forth un-
...;.nnlicted, and produced in America feelings hos.
t ni this country.—[Name, name, from Lord It
was as the Noble Lord suspected, the
Review to which he alluded, which, with-
eat attending to facts or evidence, spread its Gallican
ions in a manner so presumptuous, that those
!•en...ls of England in America who could not be bets
tcr informed, were imposed upon to believe, that such
::::omens could not have been made without some
.eilitioa in truth. He then read from the Edinburgh
: passages in which, in direct contradiction to
state of the case, it was asserted, that g‘ no
a e.iece in insurance had taken place in this country
ior,;,iitenCe of the Berlin Decree, and that the
...tree itself was not carried into execution till after
Orders in Council ;" concluding from these pre-
Ciat the preamble to the Orders in Council was
er.lacious in all points, and that we were chargeable,
t nation, with that injustice and oppresSion which
v:...,iiarged on others, and for the miseries ensuing
tiie blockade of one quarter of the world. The
i.ee. Gentleman, in warm terms, reprobated conduct
egaceful to Britons, and sentiments so false and
i.:;;e-,Z. as men. Ile then animadverted in severe lan-
• ea- e on the conduct of Gentlemen on the other side,
fobowing the bold and flagitious example of the
Ensl ever of Europe, and in their account
:.tats went to the Antipodes of truth. This was a
.e•e new even to the Opposition of this country,
‘.,:nrary to the British character, and had never I
icsortc'd to till the present case, when they gavel,.
to America of what was false ; namely,
commerce had suffered nothing from the
• le; I)._eree, whereas it had destroyed our corn-
; entirely, save what had been rescued from
. .eanion by the Orders in Council. He la-
d that ti.e Honourable Gentleman had not
...I a flute to facts, as this would have saved him
.!!t nillo.eing the gross mis-statements of the
Review, and giving the authority of a
of the British House of Commons in aid of
a'u'nts of the American democratic party.—
, eablished this position, that our trade was
b-,..fore the Orders in Council were issued,
• e ail cad of all the Hoonouteible Gentleman's
:,:ties ; and we were not to compare our present
.ern,ece with what it was previous to the Decree,
5' it:: what it was for three months previous to the
se, in Council ; nh y which we would find, that all
t-i,,eyed sprung from these Orders. He then en-
a train of reasoning, to snew, that it was
Orders in Council that necessarily destroyed
with America ; on the contrary, they
-;;,.;(2-.I it; and it was only prevented by the
. 'eeel eainimportation Act, which existed before
!,led, and the embargo which took place
after. By reading eetracts from the ex-
.,: -r.e,nn et Mr. Inglis, and others, he made it ap-
. ‘:lat the execution of the Berlin Decree, unless
' by our Orders, would have utterly
onr trade, and contended, that rescinding
thelers, without a substitute for them, would
a similar effect ; rather than submit to
•••:-1 weld I, with all his objections to that mea-
-I.lt. meet a war with America, whichtertainly
do Ili a greater injury. He commented
the Honourable Member made of the
• whieli he disapproved ( f, and cond
kith him to give to France what he
'' 1 •t 1-eac:!, in which she could re-establish her ma-
....erway to the Straits of Gibraltar, and, as
re, Laid a bridge from Calais to Dover. He ex-
his :airpriee at the (Tit:ion expressed by the
• Ganleman, that the conduct of this country to-
A merica was radically wrong,and defended it on
or: id g: minds of self-defence and the law of nations
• ••• iir:t in the eulogy prouounced on 1)r. Lawrence
loss as a public or private man vas deplored

by all that .fritew him) 10410.4fe WAVAMI would not
have gone the length which the Honourable Gentle.
:man did. The Learned Gentleman thealivent into a
justification of our measures, on the ground, that they
were consonant to the law of nations, which he sup-
ported by a precedent of the conduct of the States
General and Spain, in•the reign of Philip 2d and 31,
and Henry the 4th of France, where a measure, much
stronger than this of Great Britain, and on far less
provocation, had been adopted by the Dutch, and
acknowledged by every Maritime State in Europe.
He then characterized the conduct of Bonaparte in
declaring Great Britain in a state of blockade, as ex-
ceeding, in presumption, any thing that had ever been
done by the mos..-haughty monarch of the most arro-
gant nation of the earth, and n-arranting our coun-
tervailing Decree, which America never could have
found fault with, were she not encouraged in her
CI kilns by debates like the present hi the British Air-
iiament. On these opinions, propagated and Main-
tained in this country, he demonstrated the ill effects,
and recommended to Mr. Whitbread not to allow his

...t.

liberality to carry him too far, and make him
suppose his own country wrong, merely for the
purpose of displaying his universal philanthropy.
'title Honourable Gentleman then went into a strict
examination of the offers made by America, and
shelved most satisfactorily, that they were partial to-
wards France, illusory towards Britain, and unfairly
stated by Mr. Whitbread. They never offered te
join us against France—they did not resent the ag-
gression of France in her Decrees—they did not even
call upon her to rescind them. As for continuinte
the Embargo quoad France, if we agreed to their
terms, it was altogether nugatory and unsatisfactory.
It could not be an embargo after their ports were
open, and as a prohibitory law, what was to enforce
it so as to render it more efficacious than our Orders
in Council, as they asserted ? What was to hinder
the vessels, cleared out to any other country, to ste2r
to a French port. We could not condemn them is
our Prize Com ts, as we h td no tight to enforce the
:observance of the law imposed by another nat.on ;
and after we saw the Embargo so close a measure,
'so completely and flagrantly broken through, how
could we expect that a mere. prohibition would be
more effectual ? If this prorsition had been agreed
to, America would instantly have engrt;es d the whole
trade of Europe, to our exclusion, utterly and hreme-
diably. The H mourable Gentleman asserted again
and again, that we would be satisfied with nothing
but America's going to war with France, to force
her to rescind the Berlin Decree. This was not the
fact. We only required of America not to trade
with France and our enemies, while these enemies
would not suffer America to trade freely with us.— •
He now took a review of the correspondence between
General Armstrong and Champagny ; showing from
thence, that, as France could not cope with Britain
on the high seas, the plan of accommodation between I,
her and America was to do. us still greater injury,
by seizing all British merchandize in Continental
ports, by what they stiled a pure municipal law, but
which was in fact a most glaring breach of the laws
of nations, and of every principle of justice, support-
ing what had been acquired by military outrage by
illegal and tyrannical assumed rights. He expressed
his hopes that the new Government of America, go-
verned by the sense and spirit of the people, would
adopt juster measures towards Britain than those
which our Ministers had in duty to the public rejected,
and which, if they had accepted, would have been a
parricidal act towards their country. The Honour-'
able Gentleman then defended Mr. Canning's Note,
which had been so much the subject of comment, and
so far from being sarcastic and offensive to the Ame-i
rican people, he considered it as having had a great
influence in turning the tide of popular opinion in that
country in our favour. To this effect he read a letter •
from a respectable citizen of New York. Whether the •
Right Honourable Secretary employed his tongue or
pen in the service of his country, if he did it in the
manner he was accustomed to do in that House, he,
was not surprised that his opponents did not like laiv
style ( Hear ! Hear!) The coincidence of the Em-
bargo with the French Decree was no joke to our
commerce, and could net be meant as a sarcasm by
the Right Honourable Secretary, who had adopted
a manner fitted to prevent the harshness of dispute,
and to win the people of America, whatever effect
it might have on their Government. He denied that
it created the opinion asserted by Mr. Whitbread.
—So far from that, it was not published before
the election, which Mr. Jefferson would have been
'very likely to do had he thought it calculated to excite
the passions of the American people. Such effects,
however, were not unlikely to be produced by the elo-
quent speech of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Whitbread), when it found its way across the Atlan-
tic, and taught America all that ingenuity could de-
vise or mis-statement serve, as :he foundation to lay-
ing the blame of atvery thing upon the British Go-
vernment. He next stated the facts of the -case, so
often repeated to the publie, shcwing, that the Em-
bargo was not the consevence of the Orders in Coun-
cil, which it is unnecessary to repeat, as they stand
uncontroverted but on mere assertion. He alluded
to Mr. Whitbread and his Friends' prophecies, among
which the Honourable Gentleman in enumerating
had forgot those on which they originally laid the
greatest stress, namely, that by the Orders in Council,
our colonies would be starved, and our commerce
destroyed. Our colonies were not starved—our com-.
merce was not destroyed—on the contrary, the Or-
ders in Council had saved them both. For these
reasens he could not agree with the Address substi-
tuted after so long a notice for a motion to repeal the
Orders in Council, as it went in fact to repeal these
Orders unconditionally, and leave us to the mercy of
our enemies.
islr. ALEXANDER BARING was not disposed'
to enter into a consideration of the evidence adduced'
befo:e the House last Session, on the subject of the'
Orders in Council, because lie was well aware that it
was by no means a fair criterion, from what those in-
eividuals m.glit have said, to judge of the general re-I
stilt of the Crd in Council, as with respect to their
erect on our commerce with America and the rest of
the world. It w.is not difficult for Gentlemen to pick
out of a mass of testimony, points' applicable to their,
argumews, Lu which were specious and unsubstan-
ti 41 as to the universal policy or wisdom of their mea-
sures. The real question in this case was, whether
or not our trade with America had increased or di-
ni:nshed, and fram the result d that inquiry to deter-
mine fairly on the merits •f what were called our

nirtitires of-retaliation t He svorild rifer the House
td the • general effect of these Orders, Its appeansd by!
the papers on the table avoiding all minor details, and
attending only to the naked result. From the ac-
counts of the Exports and Imports to and from Ame-
rica, laid upon the table for the last year, it appeared
the trade between this and that country had diminish-1
ed from the amount of former years in no less a sum
than six millions sterling. This was with regard to
Great Britain alone. And the commerce of Great
Britain with other parts of the world had likewise j
decreased during the last year also, in a sum exceed- !
ing six millions, which being added to the decrease
of the trade in Ireland with America, which was three !
miilioas, amounted in the whole to £15,000,000, I
falling off in our general trade in the course .of one
year. This was a subject that demanded the most
serious investigation. By what other means could it ,
be, but by the Orders in Council, that we have lost •
the principal part of our trade with America, and an
equal proportion of our accustomed trade with other
countries. The great ground on which the advocates
of the Orders in Council defended those measures,
was, that it our trade with America should be dimi-
nished, yet still our manufactures would find their way
into some other countries, and consequently that te
should feel very little, if any difference, in the event.
Has that been the case ?he would ask. Was it tint
manifest th it these Orders in Council had not only
annihilated opr trade with America, but also destroy-
ed our commerce with other countries to an equal ex-
tent ? Exclusive of this, it should be o'Js2rved, by
way of clearer illustration of the direct influence of
these Orders, and of the American Embargo on our
trade, that, ibr the first three months of the year,
before the American Embargo was laid on, the im-
port trade from that country to this amounted to •
£'2,800,000, but since that event took place, the trade
did notaexceal ..£2O 4000. He menLior.e I this to chew
that the largest prop riion of the trade of the last
year took pi :cc prior to the operation of the Embargo.
And it must further be 6:nerved, that this importa-
tion did not c..asist in sugar, or any one article, but
in various commodities, that were absolutely neces-
sary to the well-being and cotnfort of tl:c country, ar.d
such as were in general use and consumption. '['here
was another subject, necessarily cnnnected with di 's •
discussion, which demanded his obse.arati‘.n. He al-
hided to the very fallacious notions entertaint d and ‘,
propagated with respect to the trade with the l'razils
and South America. Nothing could be more delusive
than the stories told with respect to the state of the
South American market, and the advantageous chan-
nel it was represented to be for the disposal of British
manufacture. How unfortunately and miserably
undeceived must those persons, thus deluded, be to
learn, that Brazilian and Spanish American Colonies I
are now stocked with • British pods, adequate to ten
years consumption. This was a fact pretty well known
to many merchants in the city of London, and was out
of all question.
Mr. ROSE, in reply, proved the Non-Importation
Act was passed prior to the issuing of our Orders in
Council ; that in the President's Message to Congress,
the remotest allusion to our Orders was not made :
and but a week afterwards, Mr. Madison transmitted
to the President a copy of the Resolutions entered
into by the Congress. The statement• made by the
Honourable Gentleman, that the Brazils were stock-
ed already for the consumption of ten years, he was
not prepared to reply to, as he had not inspected the
documents from which such information could be
derived. But the Hon. Gentleman's memory m"st
deceive him with respect to what he had stated h;rri
(Mr. Rose) to have said concerning the Brazils. He
then proved, by various arguments, the Non-importa-
tion Act to be hostile to this country, and this only,
and combated the assertions made by the Honourable
Member, by laying the following statement before the

11

Howe :
Exports to American States from Eng•
land, for the years ending March
1 SOti and 1807
Ditto in 1808

- - - £11,774,000
.. - - - 5,784,000

Decrease in I ROB - - - A 5,990,000
Exports to all parts of America, ex-
elusive of the American States, but
inclusive of the British and French
West Indies, in 1308 - - X 12,859,000
Ditto in 1806 and 1 bO7 - -8,629,0 i. 0

4 ,S 3 0,000

Mr.• Grittan) anitiouslY direct your obiervation to
that eventful time, not to incite you to an imitation
of those who went before you, bat to deter you by
their • example—that -we may profit by their errors
and their failures, and that thus their disgrace may
be made of use to their posterity. I recollect the his-
tory of that.day when America s:o Id up against us,
and resisted England and oppression ; what in that
day was the lanuage of this House ? it was the lan-
guage of complaint—complaint that our Colonies were.
worked up into unnatural rebellion by the speeches de-
livered in this place. The Opposition was the cause
of all, and the Opposition only. The Americans
took their instinct of resistance not from their charters
—not from she spirit that because it will, must be
free—not from their -condition as the Colonise.; of a
free people—not from their right of as the de.
sceedants of a British people, bet (*rein the motalis of
a faction in this House. This was the-language then,
and what are we told now ? that America is angry,
not because she feels the effeets.of your injustice, but
because there are men in this House who cern plain of
that injustice, and that such language opens her eyes
to injuries that would otherwise escape her notice.—
Though this goes to attack the privilege of speech in
this place, it shall not deter me from speaking what
I think, for sure I am that the fate of America de-
pends on that of England, and that E urland is nearly,
most nearly interested in the welfare c America. The
Right Hon. Secretary has himself admitted this in the -
conclusion of one of his letters. to Mr. Pinkney. I -
was happy to see that admiss:on ; but should have
been more so if the letter bad been consonant with the
principle of that admission ( hear ! hear ! ) The Hon.
Gentleman who was second in debate, argued that
America acquiesced in the maritime restrictions im-
posed by France. I deny it. She resisted the Orders
of Berlin. She resisted the Dscrees of France —Ge-
neral Armstrong remonstrated repeatedly and spirit-
edly.—Here Mr. Grattan went into a detaiLd states
ment of the conduct of Gen. Armstrong at Paris, and
commenced on it as he went along. He next proceeded
to argue,that the DO) r ;owas the effect of our Orders
in Council. But ( sail Mr. Grattan) if they are not the
cause of that Embargo, why is that Embargo coati-
need ?—Wh at continues that Embargo? (Near, hear!)
America oifers to take off her Embargo if you will
rescind your Orders—do you doubt the sinceriti of
the offer ? for one Gentleman seems to point out as
much. if you do, I ask then, will you go off upon
that—will you rest upon that, and say that if America
is sincere in the offer, you will accede to it—will
.you
ty this ? If you will not, again I ask, what continues the
Embargo ? Who is now the cause of the Embargo,
when you yourselves refuse to do that which, it done,
would remove it ? (Hear, hear!) Is it so ? then how
does the country stand in point of right ? Do you join
with an unoffending neutral, and visit France with the
consequences of her own insolence and injustice ? No
—but you join yourselves to France against that neu-
tral. It is the bad retaliation of a worse principle—it
is a sort of wicked emulation in injustice ; and if ie
is warrantable in us, then extend the argument, and
what will it amount to ? Why to this—that if France,
instead of declaring against the commerce of neutrals,
should declare against their liberties— against their
lives, yov, in the spirit of this ret tliation, losing the
spirit that made you what you are, are_ to trace their
footsteps of the same atrocities, making the measure
of French wrong the measure of British right. The ap-
plication appears monstrous, but the principle is the
same, extended perhaps, but certainly not changed, •
and whether less. o: greater in every shape a mon-
ter ! for qualify it as you may, it goes to the root of
the law of nations ; it goes to build up a system of
wrong retaliating wrong, and injustice combating in-
justice, that cats only end in an undefined suspension
of the dominion of right—( Hear, hear.)—taking as it
were the laws of nations theoretically from Goo, but
at the same time learning their practical application
from the enemy—(dear, hear.)—and in pursuing
such conduct whose work is England doing? who now
enforces the orders of Berlin ? England. Who now
enforces the decrees of France ? England. tarho cre-
ated, who continues the embargo? England. She does
more, she repels America from her ; she does still
mire, the drives her into the very arms of France.
But to all this you say, 99 we will fight France with
her own weapons," as if her principles. could be your
weapons. (Near, hear.) No, no, we have fought
Leaving a decrease of £1,760,000 too long and too nobly to begin now to fight away
But to set against that decrease, should be taken our national character against the well-practised ini-
into the accountthemercantileprolitonthe 1-,230,0001. ; quity of France. Let us fight in no cause we don't
which in the way the trade was before carried into believe to be an honest one—and let our weapons be
these countries, was entirely to the profit of the Ame- I as honest as our cause. So much forour justice. Look
ricans ; and the profit (with all the consequences at- to it now as it affects our trade. The avowed object of
tending it) on the British shipping employed, instead those measures is the sustenance of our commerce. Is
of the American. America, our own America—our colonized America
The British goods exported to America in i sos - 5,784,000 —our solitary neutral, to be injured, that our corn.
The consumption in America from accotmts from thence merce may be improved ? Are you quite sure that in-
in 1804 5,153,000 justice to the one would not be injury.to the other? •
So that under all the embarrassments of non-im-1
did 1 Commerce, applied to us, includes America, and yet
portation and embargo imposed on America, we
one to be promoted by the industrious subjugation
infect, last year, send goods there to the value of their I
of the other? Before those restrictions, I mean the year
consumption ; and we had the profit of the increased before' your exports to America were more than 12
il trade to other parts of America, which the United i :
m land millions,
now with your imports upwards of six. How was
to flax.
Ire-
States had before. We deprived the enerAy of the I
respect
whole of the coloni.country
I produce to the amount of more I
as to cotton . Consider ? How was this
er well before you give
a..growin.g country, adding abundantly to her
than 9,000,0001. Thus, instead of the impending ;
population, tnat was increasing your wealth by the
ruin, which it had been declared hung over our heads,i uP
it appeared our trade had sustained but a very incon-
consumption of your manufactures ; a country where
siderable diminution. Our colonies were not at such
the tyrant mace of Bonaparte never strayed.—
a g loss fin- a market to dispose of their commodities as To ive up such a country requires great coun-
tervatlin advantages —Where are the
coerce the Conlin enyt
of if y
Europe
had do ?
might be imagined. The island of Jamaica he verily
g believed, excepting in the article of white oak staves, (hear!)
by the exclusion of all colonial commerce? Impossi-
evilshad suffered little or no inconvenience from those
ble ! You may banish luxury from Europe—you may
which had been represented as so formidable,
and so fatal to our West India poste
went into
severalssians. The l abolish. vthe refinements that enervate yuttr.enemy—
Right Honourable Gentleman )0u may convince him that- superfluities are not ne-
written documents, respecting the relative situation cessaries—you may prove to him how many things
01 both countries, efore and after the Orders in Coun-
h
canlive without—you may make Europe an tint-
ed, and at a late hour concluded a statement of great
versal soldier—you may barbarize Europe, and in a
length and ability. I degree martialize her, and England will fare the
Mr. GRATTAN next rose and said, that it was worst for it. Bonaparte knows this well, that superior
ai
in the corn non phraseology of every Member ri-ing
man of mischief is glad to see you resort to his own
to speak upon almost any subject to say, that that weapons, fur he calculates that as yet, and for a long
season, your ••niquities must be too shabby to affect h'in subject was important. The question now before I
seriously. The Hon. Gentleman who was second in tnis
them was indeed so. There could be none perhaps
of greater except that by which they lost America ; debate says, that America is indisposed towards us. I
1
and the same temper that then broke the connexion \,
Ltment it and would remedy it. Abolish that repulsive
between England and her colonies po li .cy towards her that you have used too much, and
seems
vived again, and to be now studiously busy in to be re-
effe t- that you have been glad to use towe
-rds her. You have
ra cl Lei
ing the connexion between America and France, and
yet the success that crowned our policy at that tine,
s:iould make us now rather industrious to avoid than , and then you ch
ambit of retracing its disasters. I would. (said aces; and what
t:
to come over to

!d her into a state of frozen alienation, 'T
harge her with the ingratitude of cold.
have you done it for ? To Compel her
) this country, and pay a :AZ to us for