Star.
London, England, 1831-07-05 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

By the courtesy of the House of Commons, all those
Members, who are in places at prayers, are deemed to be
entitled to those seats for the rest of the evening of that day ;
and also, if they have placed their names at the backs of
seats, indicating that they will be present at prayers, those
places are deemed secured. Yesterday there was evinced
extraorditutry anxiety to secure seats, as the following
curious statement will show s before seven o'clock in
the morning, thirty Members were in the Hones, and took
their seats by so affixing papers; before eight o'clock 160
places were dins taken ; and before ten o'clock there were
212 places taken. Of that 212, they were 107 places
taken on the opposition side, and 106 on the ministerial side
of the House, giving a majority of two against the Bill,
if all those at the opposition side were opposition members,
which, however, la far from being the awe, as the two and
three benches have many supporta' of the bill, as Mr.
Hume, Mr. Warburton, the O'Connells, &c. By noon,
not a piste about the house appeared without these papers,
(except the ministerial bench, which courtesy leaves) even
in tile side galleries many places were taken.
The gallery was opened at one o'clock, and was soon
crowded to excess.
STRUGGLE row ?Laces.
The SPEAKER took the Chair shortly before four
o'clock. The House was immensely full of Members at
prayers.
Mr. HUME wished some rule to be laid down as to the
takintof places. Before ten o'clock his seat had been taken
by Col. Lindsey. How he got in, be did not know. Now,
as there was such a struggle for seats, it would be important
that some general rule should be laid down.
The SPEAKER said, that much must depend upon cour.
tesy. He understood that being present at prayers only se-
cured scats ; but that the seats would be lost by divisions or
summons it. the Lords.

Colonel LINDSEY asked, whether the affixing of papera
*mired the seats ?

The SPEAKER understood, that the papers only regis-
tered he places—to secure them the Members must be in
their places at prayers.
Colonel LINDSEY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the Act for the Incorporation of the Highlard Society.
Lord MORPETH brought in a Bill for the Incorpota-
lion of the General Steam Navigation Company.
Colonel ROCHFORT presented a petitinn from the
County of Westmeath, against the Reform Bill. Ilia Hon.
Colleague ►aid, it was not the petition of the County, but
of some individuals.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. S'FRICKLAND presented two petitions from two
places in the hundred of Holdemesa, in the county of York,
praying that they might be jointly allowed to return repre
sentatives to Parliament. The petitioners were plactd i

The petitions were then ordered to lie upon the
nenrcet. itTOlllll.
Mr. HUNT 'presented a petition from the
classes of Blackburn, which he said wait respectfulti
and needed no reprobation, even from the tender
the honourable member for Essex (Mr. 1T ellesley),
signed by 6401 male adults of Blackburn, inelcdi.„
man who was to be excluded from a share iu the reproeni
tion by the provisions of the Reform Bill. They were
hostile to the Bill, but they conceived it would be Wan:
to satisfy the just demands of the productive classes
eels!, and that they the producers of property, were ext..]
they viewed with alarm the enormous weight of taxati
standing army and the national debt, and dieyprayed
an situation might be matig io the bill as would gip
due share in the representation ; they prayed for annt
ments, universal suffrage, and vote by ballot. He
thoriscd to state, that the petitioners would have wail
the operation of the reform bill, bad it not rot been I
conditions which bad been last Session given to some
statements made in this house by • him (Mr. Hunt
had also a petition from Manchester signed by 40,09,
sons, upon the same subject and with the same prayer.
petitioners were not factious s, or anxious to deft
measure before tbe bowie ; trans they had for years
tended for that for which they now prayed, they couli
allow the present opportunity to pass without enforcing
the attention of parliament. Deputies from many el-
the:country had waited upon him, and stated that
wafted upon many members of the house, in some
upon some ministers, who had advised them to
the bill passed, and that would give what they a
(Hear, hear, front the opposition.) He had given
put!es no advice upon the subject, but he had inf
them, !hat if they sent petitions to him, respectfully
(Hear, from Mr. Wellesley)—yea, respectfully won
the •gh he had been so incautious on a former •
would not incur the lion. gentlemen's cheer. He
that this country would never be cheerful and happy
until those measures wete adopted. There never w.
peace wail every male adult who paid taxes was all
vote, which he conceived would be one in every
six persons. (Hear, hear.) The petition was
ordered to he printed.
Mr. HUNT then presented a petition front Mcliarti
ran, of Somerville, in the county of Dublin, gentleman.
' elaining of the elects of the Legislative Union, to
attributed all the disursaes of Ireland, and prayit
repeal, as the only means of bringing buck peace to
He regretted that these petitions were entrusted to
stead of the bon. number for Kerry, who it seen., was so
absorbed on the question of reform as to allow the question
of as: repeal of the Unicn to lie dormant. (Hear.) He
(Mr. Hunt) had been informed ly all his Irish correspoe-
dents, ilia, the reform bill was only a steppingstone towards
the repeal of the Union. (lieu.)
Mr. O'CI 'NNE IL should like to know whether the hon.
member could do anything else to retard the progress of the
reform bill. (loud cheers.) It was wholly unfounded to
state, that the question of reform was looked to as a Prep.
ping stone to the repeal of the union ; the object of ti e bill
was to obtain cheap government and cheap institution'. ; and
the people of Ireland were calumniated, when it was said
they wished for a separation from this country; although a
local legislature would be desirable for them, they are willing
to make an experiment of the effects of the reform bid in a
reformed parliament, and to see if they could obtain good
government and cheap ins stations. ( Hear, hear.) As to
the honourable member for Preston presenting so many
Irish petitions, he had presented four of them, a d the
present one was segued only by ohe person, and in order to
give it greater effect, it was enuusted to the honourable mein-
bee. (Laughter.)
.1•• •
Mr. HUNT observed, if the honourable member thought N
that the house would be deceived by hint (lie. pit),
or by the honourable member's atektacy, it was alone.
take--(murmurs)--he meant only political apotttocy.—
(k.ughter)—having, in the presence of 36,6011 persons at
the It gle Tavern, stated uar. he wait for annual parlia-
ments and tutiveuhd suffrage, by which he would stand
and die, he now turned round lead bedaubed his pleastia
(Laughter.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said he was of lilted to the bor. -rem.
bee for his politeness. (Loud laughter.) He (Mr. teems.
nell) wished the hon. member would be an apostate to this
extent, that from being the long prectie,tl enemy of re'orm
he won d become even neutral. (Cheers.) Ile (Mr. O'Con.
nell had always been a radical reformer, but instead of
annual puliatnenta, he stated on the occasion referred
to by the honourable member for Preston, that hr was
the advocate for triennial parliaments. He did then -peak
of universal suffrage, and the reastm he did not el w ad-
vocate it was, that he thought the proposed Mtn Bill
would have the effect of musing the people to i.e. ef-
fectually and substantially, and act noininally. repre.
seated. (Cheers.)
Mr. SLANRY lamented these di.cessions ; they were
most unjust towards the bill.
Petition ordered to lie on the table.
Lord DUNCANNUN presented .in estimate of ex.
perses of the proposed il'aterlim.etteet.—Ord.r.d to be
printed.

lIETOIM BILL---(ENGLAND.)
Lord J. RUnSEL L moved the second reading of tl:e Frig-
Bah Reform NIL He did so re.thout making any te-
, mask.] •.
Mr. ESTCOURT said preriou'ly to the order of the dat
being read, he wished to addiess a question to vie eliancel-
lor of the Exchequer relative to a circumstance whit!' had
tnutspirA, and given great uneasiness to a Wittily respecta-
ble individual. He alluded to Mr. Gretzsoi in hapset to
the alteration that had been made in the Reform Bill, and
he wished to have it stated now to the Briti,h public, who
bad been much abused relative to this niewure with n spect
to Mr. Orepon, whether he was or was not in any way wnat.
ever to blame ? (Hear.)
Lord ALTHORP said, the circumstance to which the
boo. gentleman alluded was a statement, be rupi.ostd, whi,li
bad appeared during the hat week in sonic of the rublic
papers, reflecting on the conduct of Mr. Grcgson, by insi.
Dusting that he tad made an alteration in the &Mini Bull
unwarranted by Government. He (Lord Althorp) had tel
seen the statement, but the moment he was told of it tae
mentioned the circumstance to Ale. Grepo.). and a tul
should take the first opportunity of stating to the hou.t. that
Mr. Gregson had nothing to do in the concern, nor had he.
The proposition wu made by Govtrnment for the alteration
in the right of toting to rents passible half-yearly, instead
of leaving it in the way it was before. This was intenel.d
for the sole purpose of rendering effective the value of the
101. occupation, and only for restriving any thing below
Oat. Undoubtedly his Majesty's ministers were bound to
admit that they had fallen into a mistake, u they were hot
aware that in nuking that proposition they would by it i 1..•
fauselliee so many individuals. lininedblUtely this wa4 fi s-
urveyed they determined to abandon the alteration at ores.
Mt. 0. wu perfectly free from imputation on the subjec.
He hod said there would be some difficulty wising trmo the
alteration, but this observation was made by Mr. lirtgsoll
after Government had determined to make it, ar.d, there-
:ore, he had requested Mr. G. to proceed in the prepara-
tion of it.

Mr. ESTCOURT could not admit that the noble lord's
statement was altogether satisfactory. If he (Mr. E.) was
conettly informed, Mr. G. bad pointed out the consequence
ins very able manner that would arise from this alteration,
aud notwithstanding that the noble lord had directed him to
proceed ; and if the nuttier was left to go faith to the public
as it now stood upon the noble lord's statement, it would
appear that Mr. 0. had not been clear and precise in sh::t
he had said. No one who knew ti.. G. would ever doubt
the precision and ability with which he must be presumed
to have trade his statement; under such circumstances, the
men.ber hoped the noble bind would not hesitate io
state that neither pi ofetnionally, directly or indirectly, amid
any Warne be attached to Mr. Grcgson.
Lord A LTHtrRY had no difficulty in repeating what he
had said before, that, in his opinion, no blame was to be at-
tached to Mr. Grcgson. At the same time be felt bound to
observe, that Mr. °neon did not state to him, accordii g
to his recollection, and probably his noble friend (Lord John
'Russell) could bear hint out in that recollection,that therents
were not paid half-yearly. and. tI at therefore so many wool
be disfranchised. He did rot give him to understand tli. t
any thing Mc the disfranchising extent to which the clau.r
would have got*
Lad JOHN RUSSELL'. hnpressioa of what tort place
was the sure as that of the noble Lord who had just kir
down. When the alteration agreed upon by his klajeety's
government was communicated by his Noble Frierd (laid
Althorp) and himself to Mr. Gregson, that gentler an pain
there would be objections ajjainit it; and uninublally h.

;i 11 :" • .
Ii
17- •
':. /
inn •
. ,
hedule A,
that they
i
he subject
"latency of
to Reform
.
but be at.
t
table. •
e worleiv,
Ily worded, .
r nerves of k, J
,) . It was
ding every , II
reprc.enta. i.
y wtrc not
Mall quate
uses ct so-
excludtsl; I;
xatien, the t.'
d that such 41.
in them a
lual /inha-
le was au-
waited
for •
een for the
OTC of the .1
unt.) Ile ,
11,090 per- .
rarer. The
) defeat the
years eon. I
could not •.1 • ,
wcing it on
y glace" in !‘
they hal ;o'.
e instances
wait until
wished.—
ik
yen the de.
informeed
lly word. d
voided, for
night, Im
e repeated,
appy main 1 i:
r would Le t
allowed to 1 ..,
!ry live or
read, and I
1 .
'chard M t
a. tI
ernan.com. t
o which he if'
ing fro /Is ;
to Ireland. !
.o him M.
ems was so • • f
e question
•
ear.) He
correspor-
-1( me towards I.
1
ter the lion. ►
xess of the ',-
founded to it
as a step. t
of tie bill
It
Won" ; and
t .
t was said
although a n,
are willing
in bid in a ' IL
ibtain good . .
tr.) As to e'
so many •

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t

trint'n ed he circumstance that there were prtsons paying
at vet: •ttfliel.nt rent. tout rot paying it half yearly, who
son id be disfranchised by the clause ; but, as to any thing
like the extent to which the disfranchising would go, he
( Mr. ti.) had certainly conveyed in any thing he said nothing
to him like it. In a bill like the present, comprehending so
'l3Blll, cl WWI regoiring to be considered, and reconsidered,
ri rcapy vows. there must have passed on the part of Mr.
and en the pan of those representing government,
es!,o g..ve hi n Listructiont, a great variety of discussions.
t •tts Atoll discussions were consequently started on va-
T'''" 11%, but iilr. Gregson had *aid nothing in respect
t,l this alteration which had left any greater impression on
ntind than respecting any thing else. He felt bound to say,
that thctigh exceedin sly sorry any person should have blame
thro oti p.m them, and Mr. O. on this occas;on was in no way
to blast e, yet the publication of any communication so confi-
den.:al as those which passed between the government and the
perso a wtti.m they selected to draw up a bill like this for the
purpose of submi git to parliament. must be very preju.
uicial to the public service—(bear. hear,)—and that it watt
impfs,ible for him, after giving this explanation, even to
enter further into the subject. or not to consider in future
every thing that passed between Government and those
whom they employed to draw up their bills, such as ought
tat be kept religiously secret. (Hear, hear.) And he was
sure that when Mr. Gregson came to his noble friend be
must have had this feeling, that if a contradiction was to be
given to an authorised publication that it should be given
in this House; and that it should not meet the public eye
by other statements wholly groundless, and intended and
calculated only to throw reflections on the conduct of thirst
who ha I been the promoters of the bill : statements made
with a total disregard to truth, and every possible disrespect
to the character of his Majesty's Government.
ESTCOURT felt it almost impossible to ;Wain
from entering into more detail on this subject, unless be
could compel from the noble lord opposite a simple, plain,
unsophisticated declaration, that no blame, either profs.
sionally, directly, indirectly or otherwise, was to be at■
tached to Mr. Oregson. He requested to have a plain un.
varnished statement to that effect.
Lord ALTHORP had no hesitation whatever in saying
that Mr. Gregson had no concern in any way with the
clause in question, except being employed by the direction
of Government to draw it up. (Hear, hear.) He wished to
exempt Mr. Oregson front any blame whatever. (Hear,
hear, and cries of " Quite enough.")
Sir R. PEEL said, he could not help adverting to the
statement made by the Noble Lord, at the conclusion of his
speech, of some diverging from the sacredness of confidential
communications, that the Government had to complain of.
He did think there was allusion here to the communications
that had taken place between Government and Mr. Gregson.
If imputations were meant to be thrown out by the Noble
Lord upon the integrity of that gentleman, he could assure
the house that it did great injustice to Mr. Gregson, who
valued professional honour and sacred integrity more thin
tale. lie (Sit Robert Peel) had the honour of selecting Mr.
Gregson, some years since, to draw up some bills to cum.,
sadidate and improve the state of the laws, and, although 11
habits of private intimacy had thereby been superinduced, so 1.
scrupulously had that gentleman discharged his duty to the
present Government, that be had entirely abandoned that pri.
sate intercourse, and on no occasion had he made any com-
munication at all to him (Sir Robert Peel.) If no such
reference were intended to Mr. Oregson, he was sure that
the Noble Lord would be glad of the opportunity so afforded
of altogether disclaiming it.
lord J. RUSSELL then rose and said, lie had made no
such reflection on the character and honour of the gentleman
alluded to, nor had be cast any imputation on him what-
ever with reference to his conduct in this proceeding. If the
Right Hon. Member for Tsmworth had recollected what he
( Lord John Hassell) had said in his former statement, he
should have remembered that Mr. Oregson had declared
himself of opinion, that if unfounded statements woe made
with respect to him in the public papers, the only way he
could obtain redress was by coming to the Members of
Government and obtaining a contradiction from them, and
made in that House. He (Lord John Russell) added, at
that time, that he thought the practice itself of giving garbled
accounts of what had passed between Government and their
confidential agents, was a practice much to be deprecated,
as prejudicial to the public service, and therefore he hoped
that another instance of it would not be presented. (Cheers.)
He thought the Right Hon. Member himself might have
felt aggrieved if. when he was Secretary of State, and when
engaged in drawing up. any bill of importance for the con-
sideration of the Legislature, a garbled statement of what
lwal passed between him and Mr. Gregson had ever ap.
peered In the public prints.—(Hear, bear, hear.) While
however he deprecated the present practice as detri-
mental, he would repeat that in all his intercourse with
the gentleman he had just alluded to, he had uniformly
found him a man not only of great ability and profes-
sional experience, but one on whose integrity he wad im-
plicitly rely.
Sir It. PEEL was perfectly satisfied with the open and
honourable statement of the Nobe Lord.
The Order of the Day was then read.
On the motion that the Bill be now read a second time,
Sir J. WALSH rose and said, on a former occasion,
when a measure, which, however, differing from the present,
in its several important details, yet resembling it in its gene-
ral features, was submitted to the attention of that house,
he had expressed himself unequivocally hostile to it. These
first impressions he had reiterated to his constituents ; but
if, on any subsequent consideration of it, by the investiga-
tion of its details, which he might afterwards give to it, he
had in any respect been led to alter these impressions, he
could assure the house that no false shame, no pride of con-
sistency, would, on a subject of such importance, have de-
terred him from coming forward, and boldly declaring, that
he had taken a hasty and erroneous view of the subject.—
( Hear, hip, hear.) But he was equally bound to stale to
the house, that the most mature, -impartial consideration
he had been enabled to bestow on the subject, had
not produced such a result. The more he investigated
the principles and bearings of the measure, the snore was he
convinced of its unconstitutional character and dangerous re.
sults. Honourable members on the other side the house
had deprecated all irritation and bitterness of party feeling
in its discussion ; with coolness and moderation he would
wish to discuss the measure. He lamented, however, that
the virulence of party feeling had already been excited
throughout the country, and that a spirit of partisanship
was abroad in the community. He did not allude to the
state of feeling in a particular town, but simply to the es.
cited state of popular feeling throughout the country In
fat our of the bill, the whole bill, and nothing but the bill.
He would put it to the members of the present House of
Commons, whether in the short period that had elapsed
since this subject had been brought forward, feelings of the
kir.d he had alluded to had not been created, which he was I
sure bad no parallel in the recollection of the members e(
tlgs house, and could scarcely be paralleled by the violins
party diesentions that had existed. This in itself elm:IF
proved the evil that would result front such a measure.—
He considered that the present bill was fraught with the
worst consequences. He did not mean to refer to the
dicussions that had taken place on the subject of the
recent dissolution, or upon the propriety of it. That had al.
ready been sufficiently discussed, but there were some of the
consequences of which had produced symptoms of a temper
and feeling in a large portion of the community which had
a direct bearing on die subject. It had even been made a
boast that a very large portion of the hon. gentlemen had
been returned pledged to vote for this measure in all its
bearings and extent ; pledged to vote for it without consult-
ing their own judgments—(cries of No, no)—they had been
returned, pledged to vote for the measure—for the measure
without having the advantage of second thoughts—pledged
stobably without havi- - fully and in all instances having
of -

occurrences that had taken place at Wigton, Rye, Banbury,
and the riots in Scotland. Other disturbances had taken
place which had led to considerable loss of life. (Cries of
oh, oh, and hear, hear) Honourable Members did not give
entire cretieuce to this t perhaps, they would allow him
to read a few extracts frous-a paper called the Cambria%
published at Swansea, whiCh gave a detailed account of the
meetings of the miners at 'Merthyr Ty4vill, and the Ants
'that had taken place thert.'Ai these meetings Fan prides was
bestowed on the Reform Bill, and it was said that it would
certainly be the means of obtaining for the people their ellthts,
and that they would be properly represented In Parliament.
(Hear.) The hon. baronet believed he was not quite in or.
der in alluding to a speech of the noble lord's opposite on a
former occasion ; but he hoped the house would on this cic-
ada excuse him if be did so, as he had not then an op-
.psetunity of observing upon it. The noble lord upon that
occasion took an opportunity of adverting to a publication
of his (Sir J. W.'s), and in terms not consistent with his
usual courtesy, charging his (Sir J. W.'s) objections to the
measure as tending to lessen the gradations in society. He
could not, however, hut think, notwithstanding the noble
lord might have supposed him ignorant of the subject, that
he ins well enough informed upon it. He did dot go into
ancient history for information, nor did he dive into black-
letter books, nor even into the history of the Tudors,
but he confined himself solely to modern times.
He thought the boroughs which *is intended to
disfranchise, more peculiarly those by which gen-
tlemen of moderate fortune, of country lives, could
obtain access to this house. He did not—u had been stated
—allude entirely to local interests, they afforded access to
gentlemen who tumid be precluded by the operation of this
Bill—( Hear, hear, hear.) Ile could not think his view
of the subject was entirely without ground. There was an
argument of the Noble Lord's that struck him as very sin-
gular. The Noble Lord took occasion to obverse that it
was satisfavory to this House to know tlta no less measure
than this would do, because it was char Ministers were
bound by a specific pledge. He should oppose the Bill
firmly, honestly, and openly in all its stages, and in every
pan of it. He gave it his most uncompromising opposition.
lie concluded by moving, as an amendment, that the Bill be
read a second time this day sir months.
Mr. F. CLINTON seconded the amendment. Many of
those non elected were chosen under a pledge—could any
thing be more subversive of the character of a deliberative
assembly ? He apprehended that they were sent there
not to record the opinions of their constituents—but to
I exercise their judgments, and to consider the interests of
the people at large. ( Loud cheers.) If the contrary were
the fact, what was their situations ? last Session the pe-
titions
on slavery were twenty to one asconipared with those
, for reform. Those who knew the subject, knew the (Meshy
! of coin plying with such prayer; but if they had echoed the
1 voice of the people nothing would have been more contrary
to justice and humanity. (Hear.) He maintained dint the
I present House of Commons—the house as now constituted—
was best calculated to support all the interests of the people.
The bill would destroy such characteristic; and nothing
could cereal the absurdity of the representation that the
bill was in reality aristocratic. It was the very opposite.
There were people out of doors who supported it because
they considie.d that the bill would bring them nearer to the
object they aught ; that was manifest. It would give half a
million of additional voters, which would make four times as
many as there were in France. Safer from considering the bill
to be aristocratic, be could not but consider that its tendency
was to endanger the privileges of the Lords. If the house
were to be the express image of the people, and the people
the source of all power--where would be the use of the Hones
of Lords ?—(Cheers.) If the contest arose between the two,
h was easy to see that the House of lards must go to
the walL He considered that the bill was full of sno
malies, small places having two members, while large
places were to have only one member. Would not that
lead to future claims, and naturally enough ? (Hear,
hear.) Those anomalies would arise in every county. He
then noticed the state of borough representation in former
times. Many had petitioned to be excused from re-
turning members, amongst them Liverpool, on account
of its be ng " poor and decayed:" but he apprehended that
all places, having once bad writs, were entitled to them, and
which no length of time could destroy. The right was In-
destructible. The house had grown up with the wawa Si
the people—and he considered that the country had
it enjoyed the greatest prosperity and happiness; sad he he
one would not consent to destroy the representation fee tie
sake of theory. (Cheers.)
On the motion and amendment being put by the
SPEAKItit.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said he was at a lose
'whether to begin by discussing the topics which had lash
introduced by the boo. and learned gentleman who has pai•
ceded him, and the hon. baronet who submitted the
went, or whether he should commence with the gas emliamg
ciples of the measure. He certainly should not follow Os
hon. baronet in his journey to lilerthyr.Tydvill, to eats
into the causes which induced the workmen to violate rs
laws. The hon. baronet had complained of an undue in.
fiuence on the part of government, to cause a public opinion
in favour of reform. This was not the fact. The
had expressed what their opinions on that measure refe;
the elections. It was one of the advantages of a free govern.
meat that all the generous feelings and all the noble ups,.
sions which belonged to human nature could be put isle.
He would contend that it was perfectly constitutional to en.
press on the hustings the opinions which had been Rim.
Did Mr. Burke forbear to state to his eonstituents at
Bristol the motives and grounds of his public coo.
duct ? If he had gone round to canvass, and among his
zealous friends any one wished to inquire what were hie
views with respect to any particular measure, would it have
been improper either to have such a question put or anagger.
ed ? Certainly not. Then if it were allowable in privatekaad
when canvassing, to put such a question to a candidate, and
if It were allowable in the candidate to answer it, what was
there to prevent a similar iuvestigation taking place on the
hustings? Would the House desire to have a restraint
put upon what passed between its members and their consti.
mews . He apprehended that no such desire existed. What
injury could flow from it ? With regard to opinions upon
topics being declared to be fixed, he begged to ask whether
many members of that house had not declared, over and over
again, that they would oppose such a measure as the am
under discussion in every way and in every shape? Had
the parties who put the questions oa the hustings, et the
parties who answered them, violated by it their owed-
tutional rights, or rather, be would say, their consti-
tutional duties? His Mel sty, in his most gracious speech
from the Throne, had d that he had dissolved the
late Parliament, for the purpose of ascertaining the sense
I of the people "on the expediency of a Reform in the Re-
presentation ;"—(hear, hear, hear,)--and the people of
England had replied to the appeal. He deprecated discus-
sion on foreign topics, whkh some honourable members
lammed desirous of engaging in. Such a course of proceed.
log, he was sure, was- likely to be attended with no benefi-
cial result. He should remain silent upon a subject which
I be, as well as many hon. members, could not but view
with great interest—the struggle of a great nation fur
freedom. It had been asserted that the proceedings a.
Paris, in July IMO, were owing to the people ;—that the
people, in short, were the aggregate. Whose was the
hand which opened the doors of capitation in Europe, but
to shut which was past his power? Who attempted to
stem the tide of popular liberty, he begged to ask ?
The dangers to Europe did not arise from any democratic
power, but from an attempt to establish a despotic and law-
less power, with a view of overturning the taste liberties of
the people. That all who practised evil might suffer in-
justice, that all who practised delusion might experience de.
ception, and that those wi o acted thus might experience that
which had been fatal elsewline, from the same causes. He

p:_ dly its.. .ing
had a previous opportunity . understanding it. (Cheers; might, no doubt. possess Mier judges lissatrflsagledef,
art, some itughter,) if he was as favourable to this mea. and a lesser power of determining what was tight MI tiles
sure as he was against it, he should say, that for any niea. subjects than the hon. and kayoed gentleman ; but ha knew
sure passed under such circumstances, a vast number of the of no delusion that had been practised by the Gomtnetent,
upholders being precluded from exercising their own opi. or by any of its members, or by any of the candidates who
mots, that it would be fatal to the principles of represents- had been returned to parliament to support the government.
tiro government— (hear, hear, hear)—that the moment that He had heard of nothing but of riots in three or four towns,
the bill passed it would cease to be a representative govern. which were to be deplored, and which be hoped would be
cent, such as had been practised in the country for the last punished, but which, as he said before, were as dust in the
century. (Laughter.) lie did not think that he was Laying balance, compared with the declaration of the national will.
dawn any new doctrine, and to prove it he could refer to the Then it had been said—ungenerously no doubt, but by no
authority of those who were far better judges than himself, or means truly—that if this appeal now made to the violence of
nialy members in that House. on so important a subject. He the people, before they were allowed to share in the elective
alluded to the authority of blt. Burke, at a time when he franchise, were powerful, what would that be when the fran-
as a staunch Whig, when he was actually one of the party, chine should be granted ; but we would ask, was this a true
nay, one of the leaders of a Government, similar to the pre- or a fair mode of reasoning ? Was it not in fact entirely
sent. He alluded to the speech which that honoutablegen. begging the question? Wash not true that when the peo-
tleitian made at the election for Bristol, shortly after which plc had a legal vent for the expression of their feelings,
be changed his sentiments upon politics. But the pledges they would be less likely to resort to violence, than when
have not been the only effects of the recent elections. He they were shut out from that legal mode ? Had not every erne
added, front those on whom he could place great reliance, heard that the liberty of expressing their wishes. sod of
that in many instances the excitement which had taken voting, would serve the useful °Bite of a safety valve,
place on the subject of Reform had led- In various districts which would prevent expiation' by permitting strong
to riot and disturbance. This was one specimen of the de- feelings to escape? (Hear.) He did not wish to enter
mocratic influence which was ready to snatch at every thing upon the delicate question raised by the boa gentleman
to gainsay the laws, and by the present bill that influence with respect to the Crown, and the Lords, when the hen.
would be in a degree extended. He need only allude to the gentleman said that the Crown and the Lords, or rather, in

his own opinion, the Lords, for the giog was out of the or the soos of indeed families in the neighbouthood ; and
question—that the Lords would have no security far their then candidates vete not bnlught from a distance. The
station in the constitution, nape by the Influence they now =wig was thrli li • dint— ihed 'by contests, and wow'
neatly, althougr
._,niViil.beeriong, yet these base prate
exercised over diction* to this imuse. which. as the hen. Pp. e
down truly said, was ineorrectly asserted to be couteadiu. I•S were ism int , 'Whicleditheuted all minds from the
key to the theory of the Coostitution. He (Sir J. Id ywould Constitutive; while't 'arum gesdually became debased,
only say that this influence was emeradictery to what was the Engliiit people indium more curious and enlightened.
of mare value than any theory, vis,—not only the direst That main. heanam'aance "late l they were more in'
letter of one law,' but of laws innumadde. (Hear, hear.) termed la the nature di °hada"' and consequently mine
If the hon. gentleman confined himself to theory, he shocked at the scenes they liiresseted. His hon. friend, the
(Mk J. 31.) would not raise bin voice ; but the hon. gentle. member for Oxford, had said in the last parliament that this
lIWM seemed to say that this was a mistaken ides, would be a transient agitation; that all other agitations bad
Vit only referred to the ekedons of Members to Podia. been but transient ; and he bad certainly taken en entreat-
ment, for Peers could only exercise this influence properly tinny gamic of proving this. He said that a d''''°ur had been
as great proprietors—(loud cheer. from the opposition side.) Wed. He should here interpolate two words, by " those in.
He woubi wish gentlemen to analyse the feelings which led cendiszies," Lord Chatham, Sir C. .Sav ille, and Mr. Burke, and
to these cheers, when they might probably find that their after_
_.__reoding a Paaral-'e from kir.llurke's powerful pamphlet,
exultation as It was without judgment, so it wood not be 0, wain= or the Omits of the presort Discontent," he
t. But his theory was that, even when the present said, that,sitee all, these agitations had subsided. But the
=Bill was carried, the three parts of the constitution , next sentence uttered by my 'made friend was a confutation
would continue as they were at present. in conformity with of his former macrtimi, Tft he said it bad again arisen in ten
I the laws now recognised and acknowledged. Supposing that ram from that time, in 1780; Mehl In 17112, 1788e 1707.
Iwe should still have Democracy tempered with Monarchy t 797, and so on occasionally, until now. finally, in 1830. So
and Aristocracy—and such was the Constitution now in con- that Instead of looking upon these agitations as Wad ban'
I fortuity with the Revolution of 1688.—at all events Monarchy dent, they should be considered merely as symptoms of a
and Avistoeracy were then thought useful parts, and bethought confirmed disease which may he emnetimes repressed, but
to still ;nor did he see any thing in the present bill tolerant which are sure always to return, and et lest Wm° to a fatal
the lawful tights sod powers of these holies. The next part
terminatirm. Then "ell great tvent that occurred—every
of the hon. and learned gentleman's argument be could not Mr that took Paces every manmade" "Teed' and eery
enter upon, lest he might displease the honourable baronet, loss, no matter trom what cause, furthered this feeling, and
and he, therefore, should not follow his hon. friend into the People of England referred all to one great cause, the
antiquarian researeh, or the history of the constitution in inequality of the representadon.—(Hear.) In such a case,
the times of the Tudors. On one point, however, he must what were we to inter but that tom complaints were et.
ay that his honourable friend was mistaken, if he stated tooted be the disease, and that consisted in leaving us always
that they were the first to lay down the principle in this liable to be disturixel, and disturbed by there events which
house that, by taking away the franchise from small bo. were most liable to recurrence. That wee tine most dreadful
roughs, and bestowing it upon others which were capable of disorder to which a community could be subject, and they
more properly exercising it, they were only renewing the were called to look what it was that made t• community
ancient practice of the Constitution. Would the hon. and liable to it. He was sovry to trespass on the House, aware
learned gentleman have said this, if he had read the able he had aftesdy,yethaps, occupied them too long. but bevel
permit him, to wake a few ob.
speech of Mr. Pia in lre e tun Pitt aid that ts his pun e anxious, if the House would
was to buy up the smaller boroughs. (Cheers from the Oppo. "Iv_ s__,tions.,,,(lter.) badkle "MIL° remind 1'..,."n- tim c
Alit
shim.) Agaitethe hon. gentlemen would find their exults- the otter mac of what fallen from one s" the ablest c".
tion prentature • and he foresaw this cheer when this passage
Mr. Pitt, it was true, proposed to buy up vocates—or ranee, be should ray, enemies of this measure,
came to his mind.
Mr. Henry Drummond, in full late address, which wan 41110
36 boroughs. It was also true of the late hon. member for of the ablest he had ever heard. Ilebegg,ed gentlemen Mill
men
College companion and friend—but the in. listen to one sentence which was this •...., The declaation'of
dependent friend of Mr. Pitt, that he supported this reform, the late.,k/tnistrY against reform had driven the PeoPle to
but deprecated the payment of money. lie condemned any uestraire This was the judgment pronounced OU the agitation
thing like this vile traffic—not like those who have taken upon of te people—pronounced by one of the ablest opponents of
themselves the office of „mooing corporations at present— this measure. It bad also been said, "We know the power of
not poor corporations, as they might well be called if they the people to be very Peat ; that the press has given the
accepted bonuses for the nominations of Members to Podia. people a vast power ; end that they an do very much, al-
iment. No, he had said that before they had dealt in ntail— though they have not the legal influence they perhaps ought;
and this would be to deal in the gross, that there could be no and that thus they have en influence on elections smut
compensation for any thing of this kind. What was Mr. than in many countries where they have power of choice."
Pitts answer—" that he acknowledged it was a tender part, This be thought the most perilous state in which a civil
sod he wished it could be otherwise ; but it was a necessary community could be placed—(loud cries of " hear) in one
WV lie did not say it was a good, or a duty, or an ant of way allowing the people to Penes the power attendant
justice, to name this cumpenhation. So great a master of the upon property and intelligence, and at the same time
propriety of language as lilt. Pitt was would never have exasperating them by depriving them of their rights.—
called that a duty which was now contended to be one. The
(Hear,
hest'
hear.) His maxim would be to attach to the
bribe it was that he called the necessary evil, but he was will. stitudon by legal ties all those who were possessed
kg to pay it. Now to come to the constitutional history. of great power ; and the system that would exasperate the
What had been said on the occasion to which he had People, by conferring power, and at the same time preventing
alluded ? That many changes had taken place in our its influence, was at variance with had(' and in the highest
supresentative system up to the time of Charles. That
era"
dangerous. When he saw a body rising in wealth
, then many boroughs had been found fit to be restored, intelligence, he would do as our ancestors did, however
'UM others to be kept down; but he would say that, con- rudely , and immediately attach that body to the State. if the
ddering the confirmation of the former and the suspension ProPlehad great influence over the State, that would be with
of the latter, the spirit of the Constitution would have MU) a MOOR to bind them to it by ties formal as well as sub-
been grossly violated, if it were true. as he denied, " that Mantis/. He would now come to an objection urged by the
the extension of the franchise to one set of boroughs and Hon. and Learned Gentians which was the same asthat
their resumption from others were breeches of the Con. 9rgsti by the Hon. alembus dor Aldborougb end Borough.
stitution." Thus Mr. Pitt was an authority with the pre. oc. His Hon. and Lamed Friend (Sir C. Wetherell)
sent measure, though as an authority he would not quote had repeated the words casgenvion robbers so often and so
him nor give his statements, save as those of a great and sonorously, that he saw no necessity to remind any member
able man. He could not conceive it possible to doubt the of the last Parlbonsat hew often net. Stephen's tfttpd had
fact that such was a mode to revive the ancient principles of resounded with that Phreloa__„. 11°_,,wmt„_id ask th_li,st who..
the Constitution. Again, for fear of annoying the classical cumwmer wellrrww rises "„°‘""°"'„,„ "'• ''
ears of the hon. baronet (Sir J. Walsh), he would not recur AM new to the elder tithe two 1 "mr w" yam
to the times of the Plantagenet', but be would refer to what !whim fand___lll 18—that Is, each was to la the part of
W lidien from the hon. and learned gentleman ( Mr. F. Ito our value. If it were eislandia gibber, to take away
tiliese), who had contended that up to the time of the a fraueldre. sorely It most she be an invasion to take away
liewsk case, in Charles the Second's time, there could be 4.4kbs debit power. He should not quote the case of the
Moisteht of the unquestionable rights of a great number of WA low telies ; it bed not received an answer nor
boroughs; and yet no one could doubt now that there were could betve it; but he would ea disunion with Ire.
Medlar boroughs and one city (Illy) which had formerly hod._ ._____.A Reuse of Con°lollo,_ , of NO ,mslabe.2T bad
gettemed member and now sent none. How would it be boo rommoSe 100. One ="rma i'm •°°!f „"'"
peals for them sow to substantiate their claim ? He did drooddosde ape *Poo the Iwindrissidgormodso asktroooll
est believe thin the rigour of a Court of law "cold permit to the pees corporations, but of mossy poll to the bouswoM
them ; and that it would be presumed that satisfaction had meager and ProPrietors who led roselved Pod 1.1110
bum mode' to them from the long lapse of time without a of many by this base trate t and if MN. Ring were
deka begins been weed. But this he did not 'require for not more than ordinarily Woo, hod also l'oculand other ad.
Ms one aid, it was only to support the view taken by Mr. vantages which it ought to be still more tto every
fig, and may also as far as the plan of Mr. Pitt exactly hooourable principle thus to barter for. ["nWa, then, the
esiniiisi with the schedules A and Bof the present bill, for euinction of frao -e worked by these unions, or thou con. ,
they ally went to effect a revival of the ancient reeked dm. templated by Mr. Pitt in 1785, were corperatlen mastics,
Consthution. On the other hand, to consider the principle none are committal b' the Present bill. 1* tho Iho'
of the law as to infranchisonent, Mr. Pitt had given the argu. Place, he was surprisedto best the term iktiondiesnamt
meat at the other side a just answer, which was this s-1, That I:cf.:radius red as it hod been by kb Yom. al
the alteration which had taken place not been made on any • friend- t was to be supposed that be must have
principle, but rested on the ground that principal places and meant by this the depriving them of the power of elute
I met petty boroughs should have the power to send membem int members to Parkinson, for corporations could exist
to Pull:meet. it was a vague, and general, and irate. without this, and possessed other franchises that wen net
lee rule; and if Boston were an exception, he would eay to be interfered with. On this Find*, to take away
that with that exception there was a town of the second flank any other franchise might be called borough robbery.
in England omitted. Any one who reflected for a moment '
fhe term even as applied to what were called guilty be.
would ace that all the towns next to London in size and po. roughs was incorrect, for a borough or a corporation coed
pule ion had returned members. It was only those whose not be 'lathy, Individuals only could- On this principle cawj
. _
greatness was of modern growth that had been omitted.— thing that had been done by the House of Commons in two
On the occasion he alluded to it was to change transfer of the elective franchise could only be tharactakell
eighty members, and to make an addition to those of as acts of lawless tyranny; nor could they be justified
London; and it was remarkable that it had been except on the ground they bad been done. viz. as Acts of
said in that debate that *bete were 10,000 electors the suPrene Government to take away privileges from then
sprung up in tiary•la•bonne who were unrepresented; so who abused them, and bestow them upon those who
tnat as to the metropolis, the idea in the present Bill was would use them honestly. A borough or a corporals
by no means new. When the principle of the unlimited could not be brought to trial, but the Legishtuse
exercise of,the Crown's prerogative, as to summoning had the right to judge where this duty would be bed
towns, ceased in the case of Newark, it would have then performed. and there to bestow the right to exercise its
been easy to have adopted the principle of reform which so it was with respect to Ireland.. If it were whips
would have been permanent, and preserved the quality of the wise, why in these cases should persons unborn be illa,
representation punt. If it had been agreed that every town prived of their dens? Theo as to throwing open some if
with a certain number of houses should be entitled to a them; suppose a corporation consisting of 10 or 15 pores%
summons, and when it came below that number should net, that of Bath, for instance? what compliment wadi you
he thought the whole principle of reform would have been pay such a small minority by merely allowing diem to vote
gained. Why then were they told now that they went too for the town In which they resided ? In speaking of
far, or too quick ? For, in the first place, gentlemen would the Union with Scotland, it had been said the numbers
perceive that they only followed the principles of the coned. were Sled unalterably, but that did not appear to he
tution ; and Stdiy, they folkwed the example of every late the case • but at that time if the ancient prerogative of
reformer, who had proposed any alteration worthy of the the Crownr had been dis.used, it was not because of
name; and he would say that the principle of the five ache. its having been at an end. but because thirty years had
dubs of the resent bill was as distinctly included in Mr. elapsed between the Newark case, which had been at.
Pint's plan of 1786 as in the bill now before the House, and tended with various delays and trouble, and the time of
that it would be impusible to form any system which would the Union; because the people were jealous, and would
combine purity and extension without it—that is to say, of no longer beer such a power to be vested in the
withdrawing political power from those who abused tt, and Crown. But it was because DO molar principle had bees
of conferring it upon abase who would exercise It honestly ; substituted for the ends. Oils mown, that the
for, here the question not being that a a government by vie reedietris devisee et sommkedso had remained
presaiption, they would not lose one iota of it. What was for 100 years in abeyance. We mould on now to pay up
sis
meant a government of prescription he did not know; if this heavy balance, and this arreir. These 160 years
it meant ow that had existed for many centuries, be ear. had bus a podgi el greaser thin the three hon.
taint y could understand it; but if it meant a government dad that mufti them. however had, in her
that had existed time out of mind without any change, he reign of di wild II memben to the home. The To.
certilnly could not understand that of the British govern- does in all hodaddsilig. Rom theacceesked Henry VIIL
aunt, which had been one of constant changeo with to the mention of the eve in the ease d Newark, 200
reference to a certain principle. But then he should be asked, membat had hoes f the principle he had mentioned
" How do you make out the practical expediency of the pre- were that gmlisti. shim would now brave been no necessity
sent measure ?—what is the practical evil which creates the for this bill; and the disregard evioced in the
Destiny for this change—it works well?" (A laugh.).... last century for midi reincipks, the debt we
If he knew any thing of the British constitution, to the were now mild on to pay had been ineund. It hal also
study of which he had devoted most part of his liifee, been said, that if these boroughs were taken from their pro.
and if, following a great man, he were asked why be wished pricier., no property would be safe. This doctrine was most
for reform ? his answer would be, that he would reform the dangerous, and neither Mr. Owen, nor St. Simon, nor any
constitution in order to preserve it. Further, he would say, other advocate of equalisation of property, had ever preach.
that It had nut been in the 18th century the constitution ed a doctrine more dangerous dun that the right to ierto
worked well, fot the foulness and fraud of the means where- perty was involved in such cases as those of Gauen and Old
by it moved bed silently winked out of the hearts of the Sarum—(hear, bear.) Let gentlemen be warned, for the
people all the regard they holier it ; they bad silently but abolition of those privileges we. at bend, and let them not
powerfully taught the people to distrest rulers taken out of involve themselves by teaching to future spoilers the ice-
men so chosen as they had been. They saw the means ; trine that their property was no safer than these boroughs.
they were not able to balance the possible advantage of the The right to seed members to parliament was a right
whole against that which came before them of foul ant :to share in the government of men—could that ever be
fraudulent, and if they could they ilki well to prefer property ?—(bear, bear.) The revolution of 1688 bed, be
their feelings's( morality to the intricate waking" of even thought, already taught the low that legislators were not
urgent expediency. They saw the bad, and the means proprietors but trustees. U man could be the Foray of
were before their eyes; they came home to their bosoms, man—if a remnant of that plc could yet lurk is the
and met them in their businesses in daily life; and it was no mind of any man, be at once seek out the heirs of
wonder if their feelings gradually grew upon them until 1 the Howe of Stuart, who bed been driven from the thyme
they turned into an entire disgust towards the whole system. for endeavouring to reduce It to practice. (Loud than.) It
if this had any foundation, and it must, he would say that had been said by an hen. gentlemen that property was a
the excellence of the British Constitution had contributed toll
,trust; so It was figuradvelr—lt was a moral but not a legal
Its own destruction • for what except that could Wombs so ' trust awas answasbk to Goa fir its use, but he was
T'
; man
much disgust into tie minds of the all that T, not aiswerable to the magistrate or the law If be did no
was immoral and degrading, until it 1:24:,•=, under-114aq with it. This was the glikeenes, and the ease of
mined that Constitution; for Englishmen were Dot capable 'i:a legislator could neva be more thou dist of a trust. );The
ot living under degradation, and they could not beer the right ben. pada= thus wow se to amsess this ph.
odious sights that were forced upon them. In the dple, itzcismeeth.modmika gam as szampliiisd
slow advances were made by small degrees; for inbeLlitaillistitgg in the be swposumed, bet woo &edible rarely, and
to the reigns of the Stuarts any one could see that in all then it wee fay to mminshwei Mm; Watt,
the boroughs the tepreeentatives were country gentlemen, ' this was theme ibegondly *roughest his synch, which

may account for the apparent want of connection in its
members.) Under nob a system Of nomination boroughs
&gibe house alcsent was pardy constituted, the people
saw peons calling their representatives with
whom they bad not the most remote connection, a fan or
which they were convinced as well by sem se by words.—.
They saw the boner constituted in so degraded and onrupt
a mower, as at present, that they naturally lost their res.
pat be it. (Hear, bear.) Under these cinumatances, he
sus Dog sere whether the nomination of persons, so et.
ateMtv Mensected. if connection it could be called, with
poilMitled electors. had not served more than any
thing alma wean the people from their affections to the ,
House ef Onmermm. (Hear.) The nomination of members
was as foul std 11111hy a practice as that of allowing the sale
of votes ; both of thim worked great evil ; both of them
worked ill for the Constitution, the previous excellent re•
sults of which flow altogether from the just principles upon
which It is based. But he was told by those who argued
against the Bill that the schedules were so many down.
right sets of positive injustice ; and others argued that
the close boroughs were the most unexceptionable
of the Constitution. He was told that by carry
the Bill into effect they were about to deprive risk
men, who bad the experience of the world to aid ;
them, and the rising talent also of the country, from the
poodbility of obtaining a seat in parliament. This state-
ment west a gnat dad too far. He recollected on as oc.
casks when the disfranchisement of a corrupt Cornish
borough was the subject of a discussion in that House, hear.
in a greet tharamer of the day argue against the disfran.
et a single biwougb, on the score that It took 4
away ass more of the twenty means already palmed by the
mercantile lamest of obtaining seats in that House. The
person from whom this observation arose was now no longer
then, but be was the only consistent opponent of Reform.
He maintained that the system of nomination was good,
and that the House ought not to disfranchise any borough,
whatever its offence might be, because 'there was not even
then the means of keeping up the supply in that House of
the blest Memhera. The ground kir opposing reform was
certainly a most extraordinary one, and just for the sake of
exemplifying it, he would go further and see what would re.
suit from it. When the individuals supporting any such
general interest as the mercantile or cokinial, were to become
so wealthy and numerous as they probably will, they would
find themselves so much hampered by the small number of 4
saleable boroughs, that he and the house might expect to
see a son of counter.reform. They would have petitions
presented 'to them, complaining that the price of boroughs
bad greatly risen in Suffolk that they were dearer than in
Wiltshire, or elsewhere, A petitioner would come before them
with a complaint that be could not order a Cornish bonmsb
so comfortably as he could desire a waiter to bring lin a
plat of claret at Wood's. But the worst of it was, thats:z
punished those unfortunate wretches for what was,
ing to their own doctrine a praiseworthy and conssermlaile
act, by letting in members who were best quali _amend.
Ing to their own statement, for those purposes for whili they
were elected. This was not fair towards either may.--
Either the house ought to declare the purchased a mat la
that House, and the practice of bribery. as lawful as the
purchase of a pound of tea at a grocer's, or else to adopt
and enforce the act already in existence, and put a stop to
the possibility of such a practice for the future. (Hear.) ,
He did net know which of these two alternatives would be
the optima of his Wearable and learned fiend, but one of
the two be must cheese. (Hear.) He must confess that he
had felt a erne doable &epee of surprise to hear, on a
fewer °woke, a list read over of eminent persons a ho had
sat in that house fel nomination boroughs. What did this
prove, but that England had produced, and would con-
tinue to produce ?hefty of persons, who, by their talents
and kerning, wee nth as would always be able to
find access to that bettee—en aindedm which they now
found through the ms at thi Mica bereoghe P (Hear.)
What would be the swam of is Right Hoe. Baronet
opposite, if the hew were met Wiles purpose of abolish.
tag and the Sur Clamber? Would he not,
on the sane that be had defended the rotten bo.
roughs, rise and ewes bind, against any plan for die.
wising that whisk the great Bacon had iodated to be one
the most globes parts of the Casedtuiso ? Would be
all upon them le eensider lees they abashed a Court
where mock high and splandlid chsemens in Mosey as Sir
Thanes laud, Lord Haw, Or Mired Clahe, dapple*
patron at the law, Waklogbase, and
politicians who were the mist and ineemeed of all
the Bekaa worthies—al of them members of dtis great
tribunal ? Would not the Bight His Daft. was. them, an
the same priodple, to beware hew they touched a Ms*
whisk lead been so tenanted ? (Hear.) Would be net dm
nand et them, whether, in their rage, they would duarsy
this peseleue tribunal—which hat been lewd se cane
• visa mei sepowerful in- di of the Royal aratherity at the
thee when & was se spay did in hiked t And when
the Hasse of Commees wee about to saheb this peat
origin et Kingly pew*, and to pad the people arpeinet
its exercise for the fumes. wcast sin milt elist as
sweats that had been Welled at the 11111 he Rehm
have been equally appliedie at that jaueftwe ?
But the same might be eel& et the • of Rebees
throughout the shah tametia• of she lon. Thew
Dever was a period et change in tali the same
might not have We urged that were mew borough=
At the time when the heaty Benue et hi dieted is
that mow& the Magri Owe, It was an tentried Wass&
It wen a windy ievel propeelime sow*/ the &miens and
t rellriesslbsoll htlerssolic mil dithems; ea the who
bad been in the sheaths of slavish villeinerto the
Hares, tad to give them the power at maid% those laws by
which they we • all in future to be governed. (Hear.)
Might it not have been said to those Banes; " Do you per-
mho the consequences of emancipating year feudal villains?
De you ems" what the consequences will be if you arm
those who hitherto have been your slaves with the power of
eseM'ollingyve r And what does experience say ? The
bon. and lemma member had himself famished the arp-
ment, end must, therefore, not be surprised at his (Ms J.
Mackintosh's) availing himself of it. What, therdore, be
might repeat, did experience answer is these supposed ob.
jectioas to that great measure ? Why, this • that heed d
those enfranchised villains becoming elated sod intoxicated
with the enjoyment of the power that was confuted os
them, they set themselves to mitigate the tyranny et their
former opposes% and to blend themselves with them;
from which a union that was in after ages
destined to Wenn thNt only safeguard. (Hear, bear.)•••
It was Dow well Mew what attended the Wroductiete by
Lord Shaftesbury of the Habeas Comes Act. And what
did not the private and familiar correspondence of that
time acquaint them with? Were they Dot there *fumed
that both Clerks the Second and James the Second de-
clared Lord Sbabsebury to have destroyed the GeWerti•
man of the esesery arming the Hose of Commons
with& power with del Greomenent ? Those
Memerde iodised eat they aemilera the Sebum Corpse
Act as likely in WI teeth the State allneeille, sad that the
deems of each a law was ineenmedble with the easy
et the State. The eoperienee of t so yeses had. however,
Edified these antidpodems, and had proved that way Ise
to be the greatest preservative of order, and et the prin-
elide! of the Ceseitudeo, of any on the Statme4seek.
And yet be was not disposed to attribute any dhboseety to
elder Charles IL or James 11. In the unmoor and support
of those °Oise'. Far hem it. they believed—Gni it was
ewe of the fatal effects of the pommies of absolute cower
en them who possess it, to warp their jealousies ia the
some way—that es other than absolute power can be ex•
wised by a Naar& over those whom be sways his sore
—(Hear.) The supra-ten of the Reform Bill were dseo
asked by its empanels what evils they would receive by is
enactment ? To this be would answer I. the words if the
peat Bacon, "remove the matter of contempt," which, es
that luminary observes, is of mach bun he the people's
eyes. Remove, he would urge thee, the mockery of election
as it was now practieed, and le away with the abominable
sales of emu in their house. The time was not he digest
when the feet that seats la that house had been Webb.
would be looked upon to be dhhceourable as the ale of
seats of Justice in Chancery were now considered to be. It
was Dot emaidered, in former times, to be dipper:end to
purchase justice ; but was it not a ressesable and a just eon.
elusion, that if to buy or sell the power et judging of rem'
peaty breaches of the law was looked upon now with feel-
ings"' indignation and abhorrence, bow much more guilty
was that man who made a matter of bargain and sale of the
right of making these 'ewe? They were about to sow the
seeds of permanent discord, by refusing to mask thss
which might be converted into a treaty of peace All
who looked at it as a measure which it was desirable to
carry into Abet, the great proprietors of boroughs, and
others, were wady to convert it into a general sacri-
fice for the psi of all classes. Now there surely must be
some ing god la that which produces so good a feeling.
It wag 1.9110.161 that a meows should be bad, the print.
pies of cocci *owed such an esedient tendency. Give,
tbigabie tin pee* a prod of confidence, to the end that
they aide repose in the House that power which was
st to awe If by se signal and striking a het the
Home proved itself willing to rely on the people, be was

convinced that they would not rely en abroken reed. The
only question, however, before the House, was 'the coo.
locative safety of the three plats now suggested by the
• . VAAOUS parties whose seaminess had iteM stated. (Ilea he
.)
..
who were for adhering to t
The first was, that party
01 system; the next party was that•which was willing
to grant a generous and satisfactory refoent ; slid the third i
was, that which was for granting an evasive and illusive re-
form. lie might ask who would not sacrifice his time in an I
inquiry whether or not it were good to peat the elective 1
franchise to the industrious inhabitants of a whole district,.
or to confine it to those of a petty landlord ? The declare.
;ion of the late Ministry was calculated to drive the people
to despair ; for if consistent, they, and all who thought
with them, must look upon reform •as a paddye evil,
and they would probably attempt to fritter sway the de.
tails of the measure. The question, however, was one
,f gee; propilety. The opposite party. asserted that
:here was danger in reform, whilst he maintained that
there was danger if there were none. But they looked
ope.o it as a sort of wit lateral question, never costal-
doingg that it had two sides. A great number of gentle.
men were pleased to sly that there is danger in the Refonn
Bill ; but did the thought never occur to then that there
was danger in not reforming ? The measure was not so
much one of reform as one of reconciliation—it was calm.
lated to restore that harmony between alb; the constituent
parts of the Constitution that had been broken up. The
spirit of conciliation which pervaded the measure was its
most important feature. By any niggardly reform the peo-
ple would believe themselves to be defrauded, and they would
resent such an attempt more than they would any thing else.
He might appeal to all history to confirm his assertion, that a
late reform, or a reform refueed at the propidary moment,
has caused the greatest convullions and agitations in this
country. The Right Honourable Baronet opposite bad
quoted a passage from Cicero, in a former debate on this
subject, and had done hitn she honour to apply the passage
to him ; but he could supply another from the same writer,
which was opposite to his argument, in favour of a timely
concession. The passage to which he had alluded was—
., Concessa plebi a patribas Jae intestate, arms cecidaunt
restineta seditio, at inventum, at temperamentum, quo te-
naciores CUM piincipibus equari se putarhtt in quo uno fait
dreads 'talus." It surely would not be urged that Cicero
was a Roman Radical; but even he saw the necessity of
making a concession to the people for the good' of nil,
as was plainly seen in the last few words of the observa-
tion—" In quo uno fill' eivitatis salmi." (Hear, hear.)—
lie did not quote Cicero on this occasion so much
as an example, as he did to bear testimony to the justneu of
their argument. The whole English history teemed with
examples of the necessity of making concessions to the people
ere it was too late. Nor was foreign history deficient in
bearing testimony to the same fact. Charles the First, bad
he acted with decision before he lost the confidence of his
people—had he adhered to the petition for their rights, and
abstained from attempting to raise money without consent
of his parliament, might have closed his days and reign in
peace. Did any one doubt of this, let them refer to the first
volume of Clarendon, and see' what that statesman and his.
torian relates. Did any one believe that if James the
Second had respected the rights of his people, and
had abstained from leading a foreign force against his
own subjects, he might not have reigned tranquilly to
the end of his days? The party who are opposed to this
measure held out a revolution to be its consequence, but he
rather inclined to predict that such an event would follow
upon a refusal of reform. He was convinced that restraints
would become necessarry on the people, who would be
daily more discontented, and ultimately disaffected to-
wards Government; that scuffles would ensue between the
Government and the people, and repeated shocks would
ensue, which must end in he destruction of the British
Constitution. The Constitution might perish in spite of
reform, but it could never stand against a series of
conflicts between the Government and the .?.. Is
must perish when such a crisis came on, and =la crisis
was only to be prevented by some permanent and extensive
measure like the present. When however, the friends of
the bill made use of there arguments, they were charged by
the opposite party with using menaces, and with endeavour-
ing to frighten them into an acquiescence. Now no such
arguments were made use of by those who advocated the
bill, though they were menaced with revolution upon its
passing into a law : but then they had not two sets of weights
and measures. He was decidedly of opinion that the reform
of Parliament affords the most probable means of preset'.
lag the Constitution. Again, it was said, that the settlement
would not be final. But to this he might teply--What le
final ? The same argument had been urged on the question
of Catholic Emancipation ; and he trusted that his
hon. and learned friend had used his, that night, to the
same purpose and to the same effect; for it was then said,
that so far from being final, it was only giving the Catholics
a weapon of offence wherewith they would force further.—
He had denied, and would deny, that there was any ebb. in
the Catholics that could lead them to make such an
andle denied that there was any thing in the people that
could induce them to make each an effort. He could now
appeal to experience, and ask any man whether Ireland was
not now in a better condition than she had been before the
posing of that measure ? It was now at the option of the
House, whether to admit a body of their countrymen into
their counsels, or to refuse them that boon. The
recepion of the Bill by all classes proved its popularity.
and the small number of opponents confirmed that fact.—
He trusted he should not be accused of cowardice in depre.
eating such an event as the rejection of the bill ; for- V*
must own that when he looked at the country, end at the
agitation that was likely to arise, if this powerful remedy
were rejected, he could not but entreat them to consider well
before they showed any Indisposition to tepee a trust in
those from whom they derived their trust. Let him also
warn them against the assertion of the doctrine tharpolitical
privilege was property. He could not but recommend to the
advocates of that doctrine to guard against its consequences ;
because, in that case, property would become no more in-
violable than political privilege. He could not but imam
them to silence the distinction between privilege and pro-
perty. in order that they may guard against the spoiler, and
prevent him from obtaining from themselves a sanction for
that plunder which, driving matters to extremity would lead
him to commit. (Great cheers.).
Mr. BRUCE would real the house to the real question,
not whether they would have reform, but whether they I
would have the bill now before than? (Hear.) He protested
against the opponents of the present measure being called
tie opponents of all reform ; they were for reforming all
abuses and for extending the representation without doing
sway with the benefit of corporate and municipal commune.
tics, risking the permanent tranquillity of the country and
destroying the constitution. (Hear.) They might secure this,
but they must first reject the present rash and ill-digested
bill, bolstered up by the sophistries of foolish declaimers.
(Laughter.) He congratulated the house on the change with
respect to the Privy Camellias and other corrections, which
certainly no longer rendered it the bill, the whole bill, 1
and nothing but the bill, to which Honourable Gentle.
men opposite said they were pledged. (Hear, hear.)
It was still unwathy, however, of the sanction of the house.
It threw the elective franchise into a class,neither so elevated
as to be independent, nor so numerous as to be popular. Re.
presentation should not be a medium between property and
numbers, but a combination of both. He differed from the
member for Preston, because his ( Mr. Hunt's) plan was to
substitute for the artistocracy of wealth, nobility, and educe.
don, the aristocracy of numbers, vulgarity, and ignorance.
But then he was for depriving no class, not even the lowest,
from a share in the representation, from such a share as se.
cured to it an exemption from oppression. The present syr em
drew no fixed line of demarcation i • it proscribed no class; it
made no parias. You could not lay your hand on any one and
say, you are a freeman, and you a bondsman. Hence
the difference between the Continental snd the English
poor. The bill was a flagrant violation of justice, because it
sacrificed the vested rights of corporations. But political
privileges were not property. At least they were so united,
that one could not be abruptly swept away without injuring
severely the other. (Heat.) It was not politic to exclude
from that house all those who, from property, or habits. or
connexions, formed a sort of lick between the lower and the
upper house. He denied that the constitution had changed
to the disadvantage of the popular rights ; the Peers W4lO
less powerful than formerly. The peers demanded mere es
be protected, than to be deprived of further influence. At.
taehment to the constituted aristocracy was not confined to
themselves. Should ever the people be goaded by a flagi-
tious press to raise a hand on their privileges, there would
be found many a loyal man to fight, even to the death, in
their cause. He entreated them not to substitute rash theo-
ries fir a constitution, the fruit of experience, which had
been so long the blessing of their country, preserving the
Ipublic liberties alike front the despotism of the individual,
as from the licentiousness of the many. He denied that the
people were unanimous In favour of the Bill. He was sc-
quainted more particularlywith the sentiments of the Scotch.
The great farmers of Scotland were opposed to it, as being
destructive of the good understanding between them and
their landlords, and of the agricultural interests in general.
The small farmers abhorred and detested it, because they

would exeseise it soootft to the will of their sops-
rion. The proprietors of Soothmd saw in the Elia the
prostration -of their inn:tsetse and, the holders.
of the superioritiee saw in it the violation of
their pteilerec, 1, held sacred wince the Union: The small
borousha saw there was little difference between being aka
cgtheiemrt:bfranchised and king condemned to form part of a
minority. The counties i. was proposed to, many
absolutely forbade tha laws. He admitted Scotland was now`
unanimous In favour of a well-considered Reform, but that
feeling was but of a year standing, and scarcely existed'
when the late member for Edinburgh said there was no de-
sire fur Reform in Scotland, for which he bad become the
object of so much obloquy. (Her, hear, bear.) He'
would state at the proper time to the house what Reform
rmukl satisfy the people of Scotland. They were told the
ministers were unanimous in favour of the present bill. He
would look at their former Acts. They were unanimous in
the formation of a Committee on the Civil List—and unani.
moos in rejecting the recommendation of that Committee..
unanimous in declarations In favour of rarenehment--and
unanimous in retaining the present expenditure— unar imous
in declarations in favour of nen.intaference—unanimous in

interfering with the affairs of Belgium.—They were now
unanimous in support of Reform—and they had unani-
mously in their favour all the radicals, and unbelievers and
misbelievers. (Hear and laughter.) He hoped the House
would oppose to all their unanimous contrivances the power
kf Talton and a wine experience. (Hear.)
• Mr. FERGUSON said it had been the understanding of
the house that there should be ao discussion of the Scotch bill
till It was brought before the house on the second reading.
(Hear.) He could say for himself, 'ha. the people of Scot.
land were almost unanimous in favour of the bill. (Hear.)
It had been said the majority of members tome to the house
pledged to support the bill, He wax in general no friend to
pledges—ho had given none; but the present was an extreme
case, in which the electors wen sat competent to judge as their
7.7rtatives, and were justified In demanding pledges.
house was of opinion that the Constitution was to
be restored, they could not allow Gaston. with five
voters, to return two members to parliament, while
Leede, Manchester, and such places, returned none.
If rotten boroughs were allowed to remain, the liberties of
the people could not be restored, for in that case no Minis.
try could stand without the support of the proprietors of
rotten boroughs. Nita Peers returned 64 Members, and it
was said this was a part of the Constitution, and must be
comlaned. The papa denied. that this was the Conatitu.
non, and the discussion bad now been going on for 60 years.
It was said a number of seats in that House should be sold
in the market, and a number more filled by the nominee of
Peers. Probably the Peers who returned Members were not
so base as to alas in the seats. It was decided by law that
men might be sent to the Miler/ for committing what was
now called a precious part of the Coostitution.—(Her, bear.)
There never could be peace in England till the people had
the right of electing their reprasniatives restored to them ;
and he felt confident the present was a conservative measure.
Daring fifty years every sort of reform had beenfratiosed to
the house, and negatived, from the universal sy of the
hon. member for Westminster to the proposal of t e noble
lord for giving representatives to large towns ; and even when
a borough was so convicted of corruption that some ri
was allowed by all to be neeasary, the disgust of the p:O7.
was completed by refusing to give the franchise to a large
town. (Hear, hear.) The house front that moment lost the
confidence of the people, and could not continue to any use-
ful purpose without Reform. (Hear.) No legislature could
continue to legislate without the confidence of the people--
(lcer.) He was confident, large as the mesent reform was,
lees would not now satisfy the people and be dunked the
Ministers for proposing it. Au Hon. Member said. if that
house spoke the sense of the people, the other two branches of
the legislature would be useless he would ask, if that house
was not to speak the sense of the people what sense was it to
wet ? Mr. Dunce and Mr. Pitt lull bah said the house
should be the express image of the people, and the principle
continued the same, though the make had so widely departed
from it. It was said the bill disfranchised in an unprecedented
manner. In the reign of Henry the Sixth, however, an set
was passed by which all were disfranchised who had not a
fieshold of 40s. a.year, equal to 401. of the present money.
(Hear.) No one could object to the extension of the fem.
skies to large towns. His honourable fraud, the member
ter Besoeghbridge, said, the connection between the re.
presentative and his patron was of the most bonourable
character, and he was confident every transaction in
which his hon. Mend was concerned must be honourable;
bet he could not cessider his boo. Mend an independent
member, because if his hon. friend thought it necessary for
the people's good to vote in opposition to his patrooloti
Mon, be must then desert the people when most they
his assistance. There was no danger to the Crown from the
mmmt meaeures-owas it tote said there was any
between the worthless monarch the French had expo and
the pent Sovereign who filled the throne of this country.—
(Hear, hear, and cheers.) The present bill was founded
on the common law of England, which gave the right
of voting to all persons paying scot and lot.
present Bill would embrace all dames in EntleniTbe
only persons disfranchised were non-resident all
others were to have the right of election during their au.
This was the first tins* the franchise was given to the loam.
holders in counties, which, added to the additional
county representation, gave the best security to the con-
stitution of the country. AU misfeetanse to the Go-
vernments of nations bad arisen from not coomding
in time. Mr. Burke said, " If there be one proceeding
which mere than all the rest distinguishes a wise from a
weak administration, it was knowing when to yield," not to
let slip the time when concession would be received with gra.
titude. If this wise principle had bees acted on with the
Catholic Emancipation Bill, Inland would now be grateful
instead of resentful. He was confident the people were never
more unanimous in fauna inquisition than they now are
in favour of reform. (Hear.)
Lad PORCHESTER said, if the present measure was
to pass, it would leave but a remnant of our ancient oonci-
'mints, and be should give it his unflinching opposition
—(Hear hear.) He cold not admit that the people
were so lianas was negated on the proposed sp:cific toe the
defects of which they complained. (Hear, hear.) While
the tights of voters were respected in large places in
small places no friendly arm was raised for their prone-
' non. (Hear. hear.) The constitution of England alone
' remains, while constitutions on its model, in Corsica, in
Portugallend in Belgium, had disappeared. (Hear, hear.)
They had formed legislatures of three estates all independent
of each other. They adopted our constitution, not as it
works in practice, but as it exists on paper. Not as it exists
to-day, but as, unhappily, may exist to.morrow. (Hear.)
The constitution of had been to a great extent me.
tidied on ours, but never equalled it in practice. The
Chamber of Deputies never expressed the steady sense
of the French community, but changed with every
gust of popular feeling. The consequence was, that
the Bourbon dynasty was for ever gone. He did not mean
to justify the Ordinsnces, bat le would say that the
immense Parliamentary changes that took place were chiefly
attributable to that uniformity of suffrage which existed in
Fiance. and the absence of those pastier interests which ars
supported by our borough system. The system of election
there left the government dependant on the popular party.
(Hear, bear.) Some years ago, the Government
(name aware of the danger of a representation
meting on a purely popular Election, and sought to eats.
Wish a constituency composed of a higher and wealthier
class of electors; and in this way to come closer to our
system. (Hear.) With us, the greatest landed property
attached to Boroughs was most usefully represented in that
House; but this most useful representation they were now
called upon madly to resign. (Hear, hear.) Peeling that
the nomination borough system was deficient in theory,
though it worked well in practice, he would have felt less
meet had he seen any elements of strength in the present
bill. (Hear, heal.) But if any person had axed himself
to draw up a bill to remove some anomalies, and to create
as many more, he would claw up the present bill. (Hear,
hear, hear.) In Melton, four 'houseful electors were to
return two Members in Blackburn, twenty thousand
electors were to return but one Member. (Hear.) It Wall
Impossible that the Bill could be fitaL While all the small
boroughs were swept away, the substantial farmer who
paid 1,0001.. t year, if a tenant at will, was left without a
voce. If he bill contained no other fault but this, he should
oppose it. However indulgent men might be to a system es-
tablished for ages, they would not tolerate anomalies of re-
cent creation, by a bill that professed reform. (Hear, bear.)
How were the Colonies to be represented ? Was it by the
unworthy system of virtual representation, which was dc.
dared to be unfit for sufferance in this country. (Hear.) The
Colonies would demand actual tepraastation, and who could
tell its danger? (Hear.) The tight bon. gentleman oppo-
site (Sir James Mackintosh) argued that there would be no
danger from the present measure, because it was supported
by men of great worth and stake in the country; but it was
so in the commencement of every revolution. In the corn.
mencement of our civil wars—in the French revolution—and
later, in the revolution of Spain ; bet in 00 case did. such a-
criiiies save the parties of the State. (Hear.) He was pet.