Star.
London, England, 1831-03-25 00:00:00

REFORM IN lIIELAND.

Mr. STANLEY brought in a bill to reform the representation of
the people in Ireland, and observed, that in pursuance of the under-
standing that bad been come to when leave was given to bring in the
bill, he should now briefly state the details of the bill. After the very
long discussions that had taken place on the general principle of reforin,
he deemed it wholly unnecessary to enter on that part of the subject.
The Hon. Gentleman proceeded as follows :—There is one circumstance
to be observed in bringing forward this bill, that front the first to the
concluding paragraph in it, there is not one disfranchising sentence.—
(Cheers.) So far as the bill goes, it is confined only to the extension of
the franchise. There is no taking away of franchise, excepting as
regards a few non-resident freemen. As regards the county represen-
tation, it is proposed by this bill to follow the principle that bas been
adopted in reference to English county representations, that is leaving
the right of voting in freeholders, and adding to them a most respecta-
ble and independent class of people, I mean leaseholders for 21 years to
the amount of 501. a-year. In this step we have deviated in one point
from the practice to be observed in England, inasmuch as we have ex-
cluded the clause which requir a that the leases should not have been re-
newed within two years previous to the election. I think any, gentleman
acquainted with a large portion of the property in Ireland, will at once
perceive the reaon that has induced us to do this, because there is a very
Urge class of persons who bold leases for 21 years, renewable every
year, and who would otherwise be excluded from exercising their vote.
I allude to that large class of persons who bold land either under corpo-
rations or under the church. We have thought it right in this bill not
to introduce that restrictive clause, therefore the leaseholders to the
amount of 501. a-year for 21 years will not be excluded if they should
have had their lease renewed within two years of the election taking
place. With regard to copyholders, I believe that there is only one co-
pyhold estate in Ireland ; and therefore it was considered unnessary to
make any provision as to them. There is one alteration, which is this,
that the clergy shall vote, not as beneficed clergy, but in right of their
freeholds, and be registered like any other fteeholder--
Mr. o'. ONNELL—To what amount?

hlr. STANLEY—Fifty pounds. Then with regard to householders
renting houses to the amount of 101. a year, or occupying a house
which, if let to a solvent tenant, would fairly bring in 101. a year, u
in England, if their rent and taxes shall have been paid up, they shall
be entitled to vote in their boroughs. We have not thought it right to
interfere wsth the freeholders in chin, towns, sod boroughs, but to
leave all who have now a vote to continue in full possession of that
right. We have provided, that upon the extinction of 40s. freeholders
in towns, their right of voting shall be assimilated to that of house_
holders in towns. There will be, by this mode, three classes of voters
in cities and boroughs in Ireland—namely, freeholders of 201. 101. and

40e. Leaseholders of 21 years of 601. and household( es paying rent
of 101. or occupying a house which would let f r that sum to a solveet
tenant. With regard to that part of the English bill, against which the
greatest objections have been urged—lMeM the power gtesitall to s coin.
mince of time privy council, we have not thought fly bevetwer, to grant to
the privy council of Ireland the urns extensive musses those punted to
a committee of the English prier council, and therefore the powers of
the Irish privy council will be confined to the right of deciding what
has been, and what shall be for the future, the limits of Irish boroughs.
It is proposed that they shall, in the first place, take a list of all at
present claiming a right to note, and that that list Amid be subse.
quently subjected to the inquiry of a barrister of a certain standing at
law, of whom eight should be nominated for the whole of Ireland ; and
with regard to registration, following the English plan, we propose
that every year there should be a registration of all persons having a
right to vote. That part of the business shall be entrusted to assistant
barristers. With regard to the duration of the poll, we propose that in
towns it should be kept open two days, and no more—that in counties
there shall be lb polling places—and that not more than 800 electors be
polled at any one place. In no itieonsideirate numbs! or.borongits, al-
though there are no boroughs to be disfranchised, them must be a com-
plete destruction, not of the right of existing electors, but of the exclu-
siveness of their rights. (Cheers.) They did not mean to go ac-
cording to the mathematical ratio of 'population, but they did
not wish unnecessarily to interfere with misting rights, inasmuch
as there were none of the towns which did not carry with it sufficient
weight and respectabilky to send members to this house. We do not
think it right to adopt a plan which might be more perfect in theory,
but which would interfere with and destroy existing rights. With re-
gard to taking away the exclusive right of the corporations, there cannot
be taken any fair ground of objection. It will not be imputed to us, that
keeping within the sans* class of persons who now exercise the right of
sending members to Parliament, we are guilty of following a revolu-
tionary system by extending that franchise which has so long been
monopolized by a few, to persons of respectability that did not before
possess that right. (Hear.) Sir, in looking to the list now before me,
the first place mentioned is Armagh, with a population of between eight
and nine thousand, the number of voters being only thirteen. In Bel-
fast, with a population of 37,237, the number of voters is only thirteen.
In Carlow, with a population of eight Mowed persons, still the
same mystical number of only thirteen voters is there to be found.
In Dublin, with a population of 185,000, the number of electors was'
but 2,500. [An hoc. member, we believe Mr. Moore, said it was
treble.) In Ennis, with a population of 6,500, we have again only
13 voters. In Kilkenny, wish 23,000 inhabitants, only 000 voters ;
in Sligo, with 9,000, the right of voting rests with only 13; and
in Traiee with 7,547, we find the same number of 13. who are
qualified, according to the existing system, to elect a Member of
Parliament. Sir, Ido not think there is any thing extravagant is
the proposition which we now advance, that the favourite number
of thirteen should no longer continue to monopolize the elective
franchisee of such places as Belfast, or even if no larger than Ar-
magh. But, Sir, while we propose thus not to destroy existing rights,
but to extend their rights and privileges of the elective franchise, there
are other places which stand forward so prominently, not only with regard
to their population, but their wealth, commerce,and increasing prosperity,
that I ant persuaded we exceed not the fair limits of moderation, when
we propose to give to four of the principal towns that now send members
to Parliament, each one additional representative. Sir, I propose to
give to Belfast, to Limerick, to Waterford, and to the town of Galway,
upon this principle, one additional member each. It is proposed to as-
similate the constituency of the University of Dublin to that of the Uni-
versities of Oxford and Cambridge, and for that purpose the right of vot-
ing for the University of Dublin, which is now enjoyed solely by the
Provost, Fellows, and seventy Junior Scholars, is proposed by this bill
to extend the right of voting to all those who at any time have been
scholars, and who shall at any time within six months from the
passing of the proposed Bill place their names on the University
books. In doing this, Sir, we cannot be charged with innova-
tion, because, by the original charters of the three Universities,
the right of voting for the University of Dublin was confined to
the Provost, Fellows, and Scholars during their liver, whilst the
right to vote for the representatives of Oxford and Cambridge
was extended to all the masters of arts, and by the original charter
of the Dublin University it was provided that the election should
take place according to the usages of the Universities of Oxford and
Cambridge; but, besides reverting to the original charter, there is
another reason for extending the right of voting to the members of
that University ; anti that reason I shall shortly state to the house.
Sir, in order to become a scholar of the University of Dublin, it
is necessary to pass through a very severe examination ; and no
young man who is not of distinguished talents can obtain a scho-
larship.. (Hear.) By extending the tight of voting, we do away
with an anomaly, for according to the present system, a young man
of the age of eighteen might obtain a scholarship, and therefore a vote
for the University, but at the end of five years that right is lust.
—Now, Sir, this appears to me deserving of remedy ; for I think a
young man who obtained a scholarship at the age of eighteen is more
capable at the end of five years, when he is deprived of right of voting,
of exercising a sound judgment as to the fitteseserson to represent the
University, than whilst he had enjoyed that privilege, because at that
age he acts upon his own judgment, uninfluenced by and disengaged
from the trammels of his tutor, who is generally a junior fellow, and
which juniors have a great influence in the electioo, this limitation
is not according to the original Charter, for by that Charter the right
of the scholars to vote for the University terminated only with their
lives ; but by a subsequent charter it was provided that the scholars
should, after five years's enjoyment, forfeit the stipendia which they
enjoyed as scholars; by. in my opinion, an unconstitutional construc-
tion of that clause, which took away the stipendia, it was held that the
right of voting was also taken away. I know that this subject was dis-
cussed before a Committee of the House of Commons, and that the de-
sion of the Committee was in favour of that construction ; but I also
know, that some of the highest law authorities in Ireland, and among
them I may mention the present Lord Chancellor of Ireland, were of
opinion that taking away the stipendia by the latter charter did not
take away the tight of voting granted by the original charter, and for
these reasons it is thought fit to restore the right granted by the origi-
nal charter. Sir, as I said before, it is intended to assimilate, as far
as is possible, the state of the Universities of England and Ireland;
and when I take into consideration that the scholars of the University
of Dublin were a body of men who had distinguished themselves
in youthful days, and who had afterwards filled some of the
highest stations in the lestr in the Church, and in other profes-
sions. (Hear, hear.) I think it is not going too far to say,
that, whilst each of the English Universities is represented by two mem-
bers, the Irish University should also have the privilege of sending
two members to Parliament. These, sir, are the only increase which
we mean to make to the rept/saltation of Ireland, namely—four repre.
sentatives from the large cities, and one from that enlightened body, the
University of Dublin. But we propose to make rolarge increase in the
number of the constituent body. I have gone through all the parts
of the Bill with one or two exceptions, which I shall now beg least
to mention. An honourable and gallant member introduced a
bill this session, providing that where a man possessed two free-
holds, neither one or the other of which was of the value of 101. but
which together were equal to that sum, he should have a vote as a 101.
freeholder. Sir, as different interpretations have been put by the Ba-
ron. as to the right as person so situated to vote for 31embers of Par.
Bement, we propose to introduce edam declaratory of the- right. In that
bill there was a clause relative to the cautionary notice which it is cus-
tomary for candidates to give at elections in Ireland, and we propose to
do away with the necessity of that notice. I have, however, fully stated
the measure which it is proposed to bring in with regard to Ireland, and
I shall be ready to explain the reasons of any difference between the pro.
visions of this bill and the Reform Bill of England, as I do not intend
to propose that the second reading of the bill shall take place until after
the recess, in order that the people of Ireland may have an opportunity
of judging of its provisions, after it shall have been printed. I, there.
fore, shall now merely move that the bill be brought in and read a
first time.

Colonel TRENCH said Int should oppose the bin, which he con-
sidered subversive of vested rights, and he hoped it never would be.
come a law.

Mr. O'CONNELL said he moat heartily accepted the bill. as a
great boon to Ireland. (Hear, hear.) He thought it a great boon in
its present form, but he hoped it might be made srill better in the cord-
mittee. He rejoiced in the disfranchisement of holt resident electors, a
species of franchise that was the means of the greatest possible cotrup.
non. The inhabitants of 101. houses was a very reasonable franchise.
The boroughs that had constituents of 13 eae.h had, in fact, but a eon.
stituency of one who nominated all the rest. Surely it must be a great
boon to get rid of that mockery of representation, by which seats in
that house were set up to auction in Ireland. It did not seem con.
sistent to give Ireland but five new members, and Scotland the same
addition. Scotland had 2,500,000 inhabitants. Ireland, 6,800,000.
The population of Kilkenny was equal to that of Waterford, or Oal.
way, and that city ought to get two representatives. Dublin, including
its vicinage. had a population of 250,000 and ought to get at least one
additional member. Was It not preposterous to give to Dublin Uni.
versity the miserable addition of constituency which would continue
the principle of exclusion ? According to the proposed plan, not a
single Catholic could be an elector. Was that desirable ?—it would
prevent the union of the Protestant and Catholic gentry of Ireland.
Should not the example of Cambridge be followed, and the free.
chise be given to all Masters of Arts ? which would increase the
constituency of the University, and the union of the people. The
distinction that at present existed between the Catholic and Protes-
tant of talent. but without proper y, In that University, was
frightful. It produced bypocr sy and infidelity. He had known
many instances in which the Catholic scholar was a Protestant during
his five years, and became again a Catholic when he left the University.
The proposed plan of giving the franchise to householders *l5Ol. a year
for 2 ears, would be extensively evaded. Lenses of 501. a year weed
be made of a hovel. He would propose that a profit of 101. a year
should be the qualification. In Ireland there were twelve mantles,
with a greater population than ems of the I_Bnglish enundas, which
were to get additional members, and yet no Melt county was to get
any addition. The hen. member for Bristol, on a tWener motion,
objected to the increase of Irish members, because be said ministers
bad formerly objected to him, that they could not do what be re deed

for his constituents, because the Irish members would resist it. mg
gentleman, as a Bristol man. contended for Bristol, though not for Bog.
land ; he, uan Irishman, contended for the interests of both cououi,
He approved of the principle of the bill, and of the spirit in which it
was introduced, and if it should pass, those of Ireland who sought for
change for the sake of change, would find themselves niiierahty not,.
taken. He hoped the bill would receive such improvement in the corn.
mittee as would mai& It a solid and substantial boon to Ireland ( lieu.)
Mr. LIMBER said, be highly approved of the principle of the Bill
and would go Otto in comatoseßill, without any other feeling than that
of the benefit of the whole country. He was confident that no small
pan of the Attest of the north-west part of Ireland was owing to th,,
want of rellielentition. On the north and east roast of Ireland there
were, exclusive of cottaty Mambo% tweetiNate vimmentatives ; on the
south and west coast there wore hot fives and till this inequality was
corrected, and till an increased mpreeentation from Ireland was sent to
thatinatte, thh interests of Ireland would not be sufficiently attended
to. The number now allotted to Ireland would not give %misfit.
ties to the whole of that wintry. The counties in Ireland were
not sufficiently represented. The county of Cork, to which he be.
longed, contaWW 700,000 inhabitants, and was certainly entitled to
additional members. The city he represented (Kith. nnv) has 27,000
inhabitants, is the largest and wealthiest inland city in Ireland,
and had, before the oaten, four representatives i not to give a accord
representative now, was not, in his opinion, consistent with the spirit of
reform, as applied to Ireland. If the representation was fairly spread
over Ireland, the result would be that the people of Ireland would feel
such confidence la the integrity and honour of that house, that no at-
tempt to shake the cosnexion could soured. Ireland had half the size
and half the population of Great Britain, and if her resources were add-
voted would have her wealth. Show the people that you confide in
them, anal they will firmly adhere to British connexion. He lived in a
part of the country where he saw the ravages of absenteeism desolating
the land. He had for thirty years endeavoured to comprehend the
causes of Irish distress, and the remedies by which they might be re-
lieved ; and as far as the present measure was concerned, he was confi.
dent that increasing the number of the represewatives would be highly
beneficial to the iatereets of Ireland.

Mr. BANKES said he was not competent to discuss the details of
the measure, but ht thought them OM a fundamental error that called
for attention. He doubted the competence of Parliament to pass the
present bill. There was a compact entered into with Scotland, and a
similar compact had been entered into with Ireland, and every thing
that human prudence could devise had been done to render them per-
manent and inviolable. One principal part of these compacts wag the
relative proportions of the representatives in Parliament. The present
bills went to alter that proportion—they made an addition to the repre-
sentatives of Scotland and Ireland, and made a diminution in the repre-
sentation of &viand. This was entirely a revolutionary measure, and
broke the most solemn pan of the contract by which the constituent
pans of the United Kingdom were bound together. He did not mean
to go farther at present, but the more he considered the subject, the
more he was convinced that the proposed measure was one of the few
things that was beyond the competence of Parliament.
The SOLIC ITORDEN ER A L for Ireland, (Mr. Crampton,) said,
in answer to the objections of the honourable gentleman who had last
en, upon the abridgement of the number of Representatives for
England, and increasing the number for Ireland, he (Mr. Crampton)
would refer to the Act of Union itself, which had expressly provided
that the number of Representatives for Ireland should be made
special subject of future consideration. He denied that the mea.
sure was revolutionary—it was, he said, a constitutional measure,
it was a returning to the primitive character of the institutions, it was
one of justice and equity, which the people had a right to, and it was
what they demanded. And it would save the country from that very
revolution with which the honourable gentlemen, on the opposition
side threatened us with, or that they tether used u an argument. The
hon. members particularised all the objections, and briefly replied to
them. He approved of the provision of the bill that was to restore the
franchise of the College of Dublin to those for whom it was originally
intended by the charter, which would make a constituency of from 300
to 400, instead of as it was confined to 90 of a gross number ; but on
account of so many being under age, the number was much more li-
mited. If the franchise had been extended to the more unlimited range,
the constituency would exceed 5,000. The voters for the College ought
all to be Protestants, because it was a church instituted to propagate the
Protestant religion ; and so long as the conscription remained, Ca.
cholla could not with propriety vote. He highly approved of the mea-
sure, and said it would hand down- to perpetuity the name of the noble
I lord who bad introduced it.—(Hear, hear, from both sides.)
Mr. O'CONNELL explained.
Sir C. W e.THERELL could not refrain front remarking the par-
tiality of so many gentlemen on the other aide to the phrase " perpe-
tuity." He (Sir C. Wetherell) would bring to their recollection a his.
tonal fact, with which they were all, no doubt, sufficiently well ac-
quainted, of an individual who had set fire to Ephesus, for the purpose
of obtaining perpetuity ; but What sort of perpetuity he had obtained
he would leave the hon. gent/vines to decide for themselves. He did
not know what they could think of the hon. member who had spoken
so much in favour of this conflagration system ; and he not an Irish
member, but the hon. number for &hash. The combined Cabinet, it
would seem, upon the principle of this Ephesian condagratioc, bad
brought over the honouvable Solicitor-General for Ireland to assist at
the burning down of Baltash. (laughter.) As an accompaniment
to this conflagration system, it would seem that a number of the
Scotch boroughs were to be pulled down, and with the concurrence of
the learned member opposite, the Lord Advocate, who in so doing was
lending his aid to close the avenues for all Lord Advocates in future, or
to men of genius and learning, as soon as their talents were discovered,
to gain admission into that house. The learned gent. (Sir C. Wetherell)
enutuaated a number of men of genius who had been thus introduced
through the means of what were designated the rotten boroughs. He
said the members who supported this measure had come into the house
to destroy themselves, and were doing so by declaring that that was eor-
ruptisn by which they bad been admitted. (Hear, from the opposition.)
The same sentiments had been strenuously reiterated by the Irish
lawyers—he did not mean to say with the confidence of an Irish
lawyer—he would only say that the lawyers of that country (be sup-
posed it might arise from some peculiar advantage that they de-
rived in their practice) acquired the power of expressing them.
selves with a degree of confidence which few English lawyers had any
pretensions to;—(a laugh, and hear hear,)—but be admired the talents
of those gentlemen, anti he thought that they themselves were a suffi-
cient confutation of all their own arguments against the borough system.
He eulogized the learned member for &lath, and he hoped that it
would long continue to send as able and learned members. And he
thought that the honourable member when he had disfranchised himself,
in his retirement in his own country, would think of his conduct, and
upbraid himself that he had been brought so far from his own land w an
English borough only for.the purpose of declaring that it'.4hould no longer
send a member to that House. The learned gentleman said be missed se-
veral hon. members from their places, to whom he would have been de-
sirous to have addressed himself. The hon. Attorney-General was not in
his place, or he would have asked the Attorney-General. [At this mo-
ment the Attorney-General who was entering the House by the gallery,
on the opposition side, called out " here ; • and increased his speed
almost to running to gain his seat. The learned gentleman was na-
-1 prised at the quarter from whence the sound came, and the circum-
stance occasioned a loud peal of laughter.] • Sir C. Wetherell after
indulging in a joke on the occasion, proceeded to say that the honour.
able Attorney-General in his advocation of the measure, declared un-
qualifiedly, that the country was unanimously in its favours now he
(Sir C. Wetherell) would ask, had the Cambridge petition against
reform been presented. (Some one answered No.) It had however been
published in the journals of the day, and every one was acquainted with
us contents, and he would ask the Hon. Attorney-Genera, if when he
made that eloquent speech in which he had said, that the country
was unanimous, that he meant to leave out of his consideration the
petition of Cambridge. He (Sir C. Wetherell) had nor the hamar
to be a member of that University, but the Hon. Attorney General
was, and he ought to know that they bad never been precocious In
their suspicions on the political affairs of the country. Yet they,
as a part of that pabik whom the Honourable Attorney General
had declared to be so uaaelmous, had petitioned against is.—
(Hear, bear, from the Opposition.) What bad become of the
petition from Cambridge, he (Sir C. Wetherell) could nes tell.
whether or Oct the each had broken down that was to base
brought it, and caused a delay:—but, however, the two members
for Cambridge bad taken care that it should not be presented
till after the second reading of the bill. It might perhaps be found some
day like a lost letter in the Dead-letter offlce—(bear)—and then the
hon. Attorney-General, as a member of the University of Cambridge.
might say, as a member Of Cambridge, whether or not this revoludes-
ary Reform Bill had the unanimous approbation of the public. He
(Sir C. Wetherell) would use his own vocabulary; it had been called
by the hon. gent, on the opposite side a restorative measure, he would
call it a revolutionary measure. (Hear.) With regard to the Act of
Union, he would say that it was not merely an Act of Parliament,
but it was • federal Treaty. (Hear.) The learned gentlemen
then proceeded to state, that the provision in the Acts of Union, both
with Scotland and Ireland, had been adjusted with strict regard to their
telative proportions to that of England as related to the number of re-
presentatives of the respective counties; and in all his experieoce and
research he did not know of a poodent that would, allow of coming
down or altering the peovieloas of such treaties. But by the bill pro.
E, there was to be a reduction of 02 members, and all these were to
taken from England. Did the house recollect what had been 'awl
by Mr. Pitt and Mr. lox on ffiffilsent occasions on this point. The
nay argument used by Mr. Pitt was, that the proportion of Mem.
hers in Ireland to that of England was such, that the introdecdon
of Catholic Members from' that country would never be injurieest
bogus the majority of Prominent members would always being
taken effeeta. (Rest, bor.) But now, bottles 62 members Ifolpil
from Ik4:4,saterne were to be addition") members given *
Indeed, who f'be of the Catholic Oppeekiew, and might ending"
the safety of the. i Chards in that country. He hoped thee the
honourable getwJamen would meet their argonaut,. He had merely
noticed this sobjeat at proe t. me point it oat, bat at the er,
stage he bee t 4 to maim it the subject of a reselation. (ika')
The obis led who heil 'bronght in the bill bed not, nor had say other
IPbdulasa ail' 01111 My teems why the sixtrtwo members Ste I.

be taken from England. The honourable member for Preston bad gone,
to 'Ministers, and secured his own constituents ham the Ephesian
tlagrattoo system, but that him member who an often In the hew hill
declared himself the representative of all England. ought to hale see► t
cured the rest of nli England as well as Preston ; but there was $ wMe
difference between theory and practice. [Mr. Hunt made some *MI"
as we understood, in contradiction of something the learned gent/Wean
had said.] The Speaker called SirC. Wetherell to order, who apologised
and proceeded. That house had been said to dO strange things '; be
SI in isten did sometimes whinge things to keep their places. Hoer &hie it
.hat this bill, which was said to be ready, and to give three thethbeisto
Ireland, was now found to give two more 1 It showed that the list of
disfranchised boroughs was a stock in trade—s matter for jobs. He
acid private intervention had occatatoried the changes. The Solicitor=
general for Ireland had ot last recollected. when Inland was the topic,
that there was such a thing as a chatter. He opposed the bill saboadle
to the preservation of the Protestant Church and comrtinnity in Ireland,
and, as a consequence, to their preservation in England.
Lord A LTHORP caved not whether the hon. member called the
measure revolutionary, for the people knew it was not such.—{Cheers.)
The people were attached to their constitution, and would not have
ported a revolutionary messore.—(Cheers.) The hon. member did right
to dwell on the petition'', .as similar petitions were indeed rare excep-
tions. The petition had not been presented on a previous evening be-
,.a use his noble friend had not received it. The hon. member had at-
"aeked the members for close boroughs, who had voted for the bill; he
had certainly no reason to complain of the genius of those members, for
had it not been for them the matter would semi and eaillyhave been
managed.—( Hear.) But after deprecatingas arbitrary the proposition
from the hon. member fen Westminster, that the members for close
boroughs should abstain from voting, be was himaelf making a near ap-
proach to it, if be forced them to vote only one side of the question.
Hear.) With respect to the principles of the Unions_always urged
against, .never in favour of, liberty—the addition of 100 Irish members
to the British parliament, had effected a change in circumstances.—
But he (Lord Althorp) would more readily consider the three king.
dome as forming one truly united empire, than as opposed in their
nspective interests. With respect to alarms fur the Protestant este-
blishment, the emancipation of the Catholics had shewn that they were
groundless ; and he could tell the hon. member that the cry for reform
would not be stifled by any cry of no Popery. (Loud cheers.)—
The disfranchisement of the boroughs had rendered necessary the reduc-
tion of representatives : if they had been added to papulu districts, mf.
nisters would have been accused of favouring the-dentoincy. He had
been asked whether ministers had made up their minds to the loss of the
sixty boroughs? He said, Yes! ( [nod cheers.) There would he no
compromise : the disfranchisement of the rotten boroughs was a main
Principle of the bill, and they were determined to stand by it. With res-
pect to Dublin, the charter had not been considered, but the justice of
the church ot Ireland being represented by the university of Dublin, whiff
the church of England was represented by that of Oxford.
Sir HENRY HARDI NOE maintained that changing the consti-
tuency and confiscating the charters throughout the kingdom, was re:
volution. The boroughs so much stigmatised had heen respected in the
revolution of 1688. It was a confiscation without proof of guilt; a.
confiscation of the rights of the weak. The measure had within it all the
elements of change. Population and property, its pretended basis, had
been already violand. Blackburn and Bohon-le.Moov, dith 20,00 d
inhabitants, sent one member, while Bedford and Tavistock, with
4,000, sent two members. The claims put in by the member for
Waterford for en addition to Ireland, was only a commencement.:
The barrier raised between the middle and the lower orders would
raise popular excitement, and demands not to be resisted. Tice
Member for Waterford had already stated to his constituents that the
measure wasa step to the repeal of the union—the Member for Middle.
sax bad cautioned the petitioners of Argyleshire to abstain, but only
for the present, from petitioning for the ballot. He contended that the
influence of the crown and aristocracy had decreased in that House.
Contrast the Parliament of George I. with the present. A sudden and
violent infusion of democracy would endanger the Monarchy. In
Ireland, where five-sixths of the property was Protestants, while five-
sixths of the population were Catholics, how could population
and property be both represented ? No Protestant would be returned
unless he had the votes of two-thirds of the Catholics. At the time
of the Union 24 close boroughs had been expressly reserved for the
preservation of Protestant property. There every man of talent must
now either agitate or pander to the popular feeling: or be excluded from
Parliament. That the noble lord would avail himself of the disfran-
chasements to introduce Whigs and supporters he (Sir H. Hardinge) did
not believe ; but he could assure him that every individual in the so-
ciety in which he moved, and with whom he had communicated, viewed
the subject with suspicion and alarm. He (Sir H. Hardinge) would
never surrender his reason, his honour, and his conscience to the fear of
any public or popular resentment, but would always oppose a measure
which he considered unfortunate and fatal.
The LORD ADVOCATE must again reply to the hundredth time
repeated argument that the measure was revutionary. He took the
definition of the' British Constitution to be monarchy, peerage, and re-
presentation of the people. The prerogatives of the Bing and Lords
were not invaded. The question lay in correcting the representation
of the people. This he contended could not be considered a violation
or invasion of the constitution. Two objections chiefly, were offered ;
the disfranchisement of boroughs, and the alteration of the qualification
for franchise. He should take them separately. Was transferring the
representation from decayed—without *trying corrupt boroughs—to
more populous places, a revolution ? Were the election to remain
e Oh the same class of penons, and on the same plan; would its transfer
to districts with more inhabitants, and consequently with more wealth,
and a greater need of representation, endanger the Constitution ? But
the qualification was changed ;—there he must notice the inconsistency
of those who accused the measure of being democratic, and in the same
breath called it oppressive to the lower orders. In counties where the
bulk of the electors were qaalified at forty shillings, how could the in.
'mixture of ten pound voters, the addition of richer to poorer electors,
be in favour of demooracy ? ' In the towns, he contended, that the
wealthy class was fur the first time admitted. Again, in the boroughs,
wealthy voters were substituted for poor corporation.. He de-
fied mat the nominees were in that house the asserters of Aris-
tocracy, not the supporters of the rights of the people of England.
Appealing to those who had represented boroughs, it was asked what
harm they did ? This—they represented no order ; they represented
only the narrow views or passions of individuals. They, presented an
obstinate resistance to really popular representation. He denied that
the plan would make that house injuriously democratic as regarded the
aristocracy ; it was established on too broad a basis to be affected by the
changes and extension of suffrage contemplated by these bills. The
peopie did rot require democracy ; they considered themselves as living
urnier a monarchy adorned by a peerage, and illustrated by popular re-
presentation. When the representation was extended to the middling clan-
sett, and the qualification was raised, where was the danger of opening the
close boroughs? He could not see the danger, except it could be supposed
that the middle classes would wholly disregard whatever tended to uphold
their own interests and the institutions of the country. There was the
wholesome check of their dependence on their own progressive indus.
try, and there was the further security desirable from their increased in.
formation. There might be some amongst the population who were
discontented—there might be tares among the wheat—there might be
poison lucre and there; but he was ready to maintain that they might
rely on the mass of the population, then he thought even the close bo-
rough. would be of little avail—that it would become them with all
pos,ibie promptitude to remove the taint, by instructing the people in
better knowledge of their rights. (Hear.'
Sir R. P EEL said whatever merits might ;belong to the speech
stitch they had just heard, that of drawing them to the consideration
of the question immediately before the house could not be deemed one
of them. (Hear.) The Learned Lord (Jeffrey) had admitted that of
the Irish Representation he knew nothing; but in speaking on the sub-
;ect he had skilfully inttoduced arguments as to that which, after all,
was the most important point of consideration, namely, the ultimate
t,ndency of the measure before them. (Hear, hear.) And this was
hrnught forward after nine days' debate and consideration ; but he
va. not such a partizan as not to admire talent and ingenuity
herever they might be found; if it were against him it only tended
to show him more distinctly the value of that system which such inge-
.uity and talent had on the present occasion been attacking. The learn.
id lord dented that the measure was revolutionary ; but contended, cu-
rtou,ly enough, that its chief merits in his eyes were, that it would di.
udnish the democracy and add to the aristocracy. (Hear, hear.) As to
the measure being " revolutionary," he was not one that liked to use
%irk:lames ; but those who termed it revolutionary maintained that its
,ffiet was, in which opinion of the plan he concurred, that if it were
carried they must make up their minds to live under a totally different
Constitution. (Hear.) Tile Lord Advocate said, the opponents of the
measure wanted two things, the disfranchising parts of the measure,
with the change of the elective franchise, &c. He denied that there
Ina any such confusion ; but if there were, he maintained that they
Were justified in viewing the whole measure. What was the men.
sure? Was it not to disturb all the existing relations as to the nume-
rical proportions of the present representation, and the modes of elect-
ing last representation ? As to the numerical proportions, did they
not add to the Members for Scotland, and for Ireland, and for Wales,
in a degree ; and did they not diminish the number of representatives
for England? And was there not to be a change in the constituency of
every counte_of England, Scotland, and Ireland? And was there not
to be material changes in towns and cities, as regirded the limits and
principles of election ? Were there more thaw fifty left that were not
to be changed by the Bills, and the Privy Coancil ?—(Hear). To re-
to the several representatives bad they not selected one class—for,
after ten or twenty years, when the present life interest should be
esbausted, that would be the case? And was not' that change,
'ransferring all the elective franchise to one class, a monstrous change in
the representation of this country ? And was it not oholly unhied ?
If it could be shown to be In theory the most beautiful system thet was
ever derlsed, still a powerful answer would be ready, when recollecting
o _hiat existed, that it was wholly untried. He could not--no one could-
oretel what would be the future system, what the effect in .futste of•
the changes projected. Was it nothing to abandon to any govern.
'heat the ancient customs and prescriptions of the country ? Let
then be called prejudices if they pleased ; but that -which they'
were going to destroy, those ancient customs and prescriptions, had
strong hold of the people, and were great inducements-to obedience.

If the proposed system, untried as ft was, had been still better
stepported by sogument, trout wisat be knew of Pew goveritniente,
be sluesl4 be against it. He should still be disposed to doubt the
bdietit df any such asap. It was easy enough to poigt out abstuditiel
and inconsistencies in the eopititution ; that certainly could not be ;
dadesitegirded'the fhttarC, be tit,di relined tiithetu. that I
they had impound to proceed utilM. Brittttlit dfielge wife' to be of a ;
irwein eland*. What sacsritp had they diat. it weal/ be pat-
et ? hear) Their principles shemM that the result must be
what would produce continual changes. When they cut off siEly-two I
boroetrits, dud reduced forty-sev'ett at onct, haw could they say that the
malt should be permanent ? Nut, sheet web dully whit, like the '
honourable member for Middlesex (Mr. Hume) said—" Let us be satis-
fied with this measure ! Let us suppress our opposition and opinions !
and let us not encourage petitions !" But where was the security that
all their chdots would not be revived two pears hence' shoPld this mei-
sure be earned. Those who bad no members, yet had a large popula-
tion,ee would say, Give us members ! you have a fund of 64 places
extinguished; ; draw upon that for opr just relief I" How could that
change be called permanent, where the ballot was oweged—that ballot
which under the new system, if there were' ay repson for it, would be
twice a requisite as it could now be. (Mat, hear.) It was urged
that the change would sustain the aristocracy; and stringthen
the prerogatives of the Crown ; but, as there was now no reviving the
prerogative of the veto possessed by the crown in fames ages—it was
a rusty sword, that could no more be drawn forth. Where was the
security against the overwhelming influence of the people that would
be created by this measure ? If they succeeded in making that house
the express image of the popular sentiment, they would find it diffi-
cult to 'persuade the people that it would ever be right in the Home
of Lords to resist any measure that came fro. the Commons. The
tendency of such popular aisemblies alwltys had been to assume the
executive as well as the legislative. That was the ease in the national
assembly, where the right of declaring war was claimed, notwith-
standing the resistance to such doctrine even by Mirabeau. An here-
ditary assembly could not long (*.exist with such a popular assembly.
But the learned lord said the manure would not make that assembly
mote democratic; on the contrary the aristocracy would have more in-
fluence at elections. The " aristocracy ? " if that were to be so, what
would become of their standing order against the interference of peers in
elections ? He was afraid that this was ooe of those points where
" the sarcasm destroyed the syllogism and where the argument was
lost in the vituperation ! " (Hear, and a laugh.) When all was calm,
he did not apprehend any danger front the increased admixture of de-
mocracy in that house ; but when the storm and the tempest came—when
there should arise any extraordinary popular excitement—backed by the
Press—he feared that the vessel of the state would be swamped by
those hurricanes against which the system now ptoposed made no prove'-
' sion. The Right Hon. Bart, then complimented Mr. Sheil—rejoiced
that he had been transferred Into that House, and he hoped he would
not lend himself to measures that would send himself back from the
consideration of the great interests of a mighty empire to discuss ques-
tions of Dublin police, and mingle in matters of agitation. While
listening to that lion. and Learned Member, however, with great satis-
faction, he bad not been able to avoid congratulating himself on his
humble efforts to accomplish that measure which secured such talents for
that House, and rejoicing that there existed a state of things which, if
such services as his were disregarded by popular gratitude,could still en.
able him to find protection amongst the venerable walls of Milbourne
Port. As to that part of the measure which extended towns, it would
be creating fifty Basatlaws, and another part of it would create through
the country 500 or 400 republics—he meant districts. With respect to
the question immediately before the house, he would now come to that.
He had expected that it would have been somewhat differently intro.
dueed ; but the hon. member (Mr. Stanley) had contented himself with
merely reading the marginal notes of the bill. The change would very
seriously affect the relations regarding the property and religion of Ire-
land ; he had desired and expected to hear bow property was to be
secured and religion maintained in Ireland. A most extraordinary
change was projected—it was a decided transfer of power from one
party to another. To effect it, the physical force of the country and
, the Sovereign were arrayed together. He would not say that the change
was revolution ; but it was a greater change titan had ever taken place
in this country. After the alliance between the King and the people—
; an alliance that might be easily formed—he was aware that they were
t placed in a most difficult situation, whether they adopted or rejected the
; bill; but in his opinion the least evil would be the rejection of the

measure,
Lord PALMERSTON said the Right Honourable Baronet had
expensed himself not against moderate reform ; now he should like to
Maw what degree of reform it was that would not be revolutionary.—
(Cheers.) Honourable Gentlemen argued as if the rotten boroughs
were the supports of the Crown. By that must be meant that
they supported the Administration of the day. But if they looked
al the list of boroughs to be disfranchised, they would find that as
many opposed as supported the Administration. (Great cheers
hem the opposition.) His Right Honourable Friend adverted
to the first French Revolution, and argued that equal atrocities
would be committed in this country, if the principles of the Con.
stitutlon were reverted to. Indeed the whole argument went on the
basis that the principles of the Constitution were to be avoided
In practice. He might as wellee=e that because a madman
had committed certain sots in a situation, a man of wind
sense would act in the same manner, if placed in the same situa-
tion, as that the people of &Wand, if restored to their rights, would
imitate the co
imitate the French in their first Revolution. His
Right Honourable Friend had instanced the case of $ Learned
gent. (Mr. Shiel) who, rejected by an Iriais county, bad (Mind an en-
' trance into that House, of which be was *I an ornament, through
ndy
the channel of a close English borough which the bill would disfran-
chise. His right hon. friend might have drawn a different moral from
the Instance he quoted. That learned gent. was long eieluded froth his
natant nation in the state, and was in consequent* a violent agitator.
The Catholic Relief Bill had removed oppreakiit under which he suf.
fared, and raised Mir to the exercise of his constitutional rights. What
was the consequentie ? Be became a member of that hciuse, exercising
his great talents in support of the constitution: Apply this instanee to
the people at large ; would they not become the supporters of the con-
stitution from which they now considered themselves excluded. He
could see nothing in the bill that was not calculated to unite all daises
of
the people in support of the constitution.
Mr. GOULBURN said, he consideredtthe influence of the crown on
benoghs through the Privy Council, who were to extend the limits of
boroughs at their pleasure, would be an unimnstitutionid increase of the
power of the crown. Some argued that it would be rune-
Pest, and that the alteration in the franchise of the forty-shilling free-
fielders of Ireland justified the alteration in the franchise proposed by
the present plan; but what answer would they give to the future re-
former, who came to them with thi double example of two alterations,
and demanded; universal sufßageluid vote by ballot? The measure be-
fore the House was likely to produce a change in the constituency of
Ireland, which would necessarily .be felt in that House on that question
which they all deprecated, the repeal of the Union.
Mr. HUNT wished to correct two statements of the hon. member for
Boroughbridge. The hon. member said that he (Mr. Hunt) had as.'
sumed to be the representative of the whole people of England, and that
he had made a bargain with mbfisters for his constituents of Preston;
but neither of tho,.e representations was corm:. The hon. member
proceeded to show that the present plan of reform was not open to the
charge of being immoderate. The population of England, Ireland, and
Scotland was 29,000,000 ; of these the males were 11,000,000, and
deducting 3,000,000 for children, the adult male population of the
three kingdoms might be taken at 8,000,000. At the utmost mi-
nisters did not promise to make the constituency more than 1,000,000.
Averaging the income of this body at 1501. a-year each, we had
property to the amount of 150,000,0001. represented. He
took threarnings and subsistence of each of the remaining 7,000,000
unrepresented to average 12s. 6d. a week—thus it was perceived that
24,000,0001. sterling, the produce of industry, did not entitle the
possessors to any share in the representation. (Coughing.) If hon.
members had got had colds he had a fen lozenges in his pocket quite
at their envies. (Laughter, mingled with renewed and almost general
coughing, as if each honourable member was anxious to prove him.
self a proper subject for Mr. Hunt's kindness.) Oh, he was • quite
sure it was not done intentionally. (A laugh.) The honourable mem-
ber proceeded to say, that he thought if the ministerial measure were
carried without the addition of vote by ballot, we should be in a worse
state than before (great cheering from the opposition side of the house),
because the little 101. householder about to be enfranchised were pre-
cisely that class of men which was more liable to improper influence
than any other. (Renewed cheering from the same quatter.) In the
counties the plan would give additional power to the landowners and
aristocracy, and in the towns the shopkeepers would require the protec-
tion of the ballot. (Hear, hear.) However he felt thankful to minis-
ters for doing away with the rotten boroughs, and so did the people ge-
nerally. After some further remarks, the hoe. gentleman observed, in
conclusion, that, every thing considered, he would rather the representa-
tion should remain as it was, with the protection of vote by ballot; than
have universal suffrage without it.
Mt. JRPHSON said the hon. member for Boroughbridge had dwelt'
on the advantage of bringing into the house whit he called Epliesian
members; but, for his pan, he thought if none of the 'list of names the
learned gentleman read over had ever entered that boast, the affairs or
the country would be conducted with full as muehigood settee. (Heat':
bear.) The competence of parliament had been crllled'in 'quesdon:
The Act of Union made the present legislature thelqglelilture of 'the
whole country I and was it to be contended that it wed 'not boinpeteni
to the purposes of legislation, for which It was constittited? Re tholight
that Ireland had not been sutheiently taken into coneidetation, and hi
yegretted that his Majesty's ministers bad had so many difficulties geg
posed to them ; bat be moped that their mediate *beta be carried, aril,
if so, Omelets Irshied'wouid be considered,' as it ought to be, seintii-
gni part of the
,einto . hi the present thin state of the "bbes~t~ii~soo bit
would not go IN: ho' 'to-night, but he wasielltele
serve himself foe thenthent
Mr: GISBORPIth to a declanftion of some Renew
Gentlemen on the other side, wile had 'declared that they ap-
proved of .the measwisr to a great' entente; bat that being represen-
tones 'of retail bankight,• they enbidered tbeenielves bound to'
vote against the seeded Veading,of 'die Bill. Now be ',tumid ask
WOW-thine' Gentlimeo' woiBll sify who bad contended that

Mrlnhere for rotten boroughs were the virtually repremeotativea of
Birmingham and other large towns which were really unrepresented.
He took a view of the state of the present county representation, and
said he found that a full half of them were sous or brothers of noble-
men. He did not see it possible that the government of the country,
should it fall into the hands of the Right Hon. Baronet opposite (Sit
R. Peel) cooed be conducted, *Hi the assistance of the Member for
Boroirghbridge and all his supperter+, without adopting tl.e popular
sentiments! of Me country.
Mr. RUTHVEN tumid, be regretted that the House had 'seen em.
ban-tuned to this late hour in a debate in which the main subject hid
bean but little alluded to. The people of Ireland, he spoke it advi-
sedly, were all looking forward with anxious expectation to the qoestion
of Reforrh, this they Might derive the benefit+ which ought to have
arisen front the Union, and which they had never yet received. Heap.
primed orthe conduct of the present government, and said, that had
not the Kitt: Ministry declared their entire hostility to reform, that
the country would not have been so dissatisfied with them, nor would
they hive been removed from their seats.
Mr. H. PANE could not see what England bad done to forfeit
such a proportion of the representation as seventy Member., when the
other parts or the empire were to have theirs increased He should,
oppose any measures connected with so unjust a proceeding.
111 r. 0 MOORE characterised the measure which carried such a
sweeping dlafianchlsement'into Ireland a+ illegal, immoral, and alto-
gether unconstirutiotial.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill, which was read a first
time, and the second reading appointed for the 18th of April next.
Lord ALTHORP gave notice that, to-morrow, he should bring
forward the Annual indemnity Bill; and that the Secretary for the
Ordnance should, on Monday next, move the Ordnance Estimates.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the House
adjourned at Half past One o'Cleck.