Star.
London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

L

Item, and even more oppofite to their worthip than
you are. I know not what reale of comparifon ought
to he inilituted to 'regulate the claims of different
bodies of men. I trust your Lordfitips muff fee the
p ,licy and juflice of conceffion to the Catholics.—
Does not the continuance of the prefent fallen) tend
to perpetuate and increafe ail the difficulties of
which we complain? Admit all the charges again!"
the Catholics, and then what is the courfe which
this country is to purfue.with lime. trillions of fttbi:.as
iaveterate in their hatred of all your eftaislithments?
The one is that which was-adopted ;n -the reign of
sheen Anne, and the other is that which has been
warned ,with inch fiiccefs in the reign of his prefent
-Majefty. On the fir!" fy acm, you moll begin by de-
. priving them of their cormilitutional. right 6 ;. then-of
their property, arid the means cf acquiring .propei-
; and !rally, 'educe them tarbefitnatiOnof aliens
in their own cauutry. ''Pietro nts ',,iloispjng
s...,urie: Neu art put 'diet ween&the:iltettiatives•nt`;
complete exclution, or the roffeffion w?ttc
-the alienation of privileges. :- But illhe.alifpolitienei
f. 2 people nee tr:i4,. the mcalbre of true wifdom is;
-to alter and-aniellorate them. If, therefore,. vin tc-;
litfe to accede theirjequells, you • prevent thcmi
-from forming an sittitchmeut to your Caovernmepr ;i
land if you perceive that friar recent conchae-is IMP
trf~ten; if
,yeu find •that tt fails to concilimi'm your •
-interelts any orieuftime individuals wheria-yonfitonki
•Wilb to have attached to you; why tmift this country
7perfill in a plan fo obnoxions to otfieri and afelefs
to Well'? ItiOr propottioul in that cafe amounts
but to thisi•we cannot ueprive the RomanCalbolics
Of their property, that is placed by thelaws,heyond
The reach of the Goverriment ; we cannot -.deprive
them of their-natural-weight in fociety, and of thole
franchifes and privileges which at preterit 'they pot
lets;'but we .torment the more elevated ranks of
hat-perfustfian, brrellraining them from attaiaing
r,ie oldies of their ambition,.and hinder therm efFec-
sillily from ring tethe fummit of the profeillurri to
which theyttray apply theinfelves. If this be not
theirtiund on which the enemies of *the Catholics
prticeedi.the -may 'argument that is left them feems
tometo be this: we are now arrived at that parti.
tqlar conjoin/tire at which we mull coma to it Rand.
6hpr it everthirprndetit or deferable for a, Legillature
lerrefolve trpOti st rural celtstian in a meafure of filch
wiratirre 'tills' rs ?. • -If it ever can be prudent or de-
&Ali; 4t itipil-he under Clrintirillances.of a very pe-
en)lar Itioefi-iind -of is very marked, palpable, and
evident:clef-alp-ITT: But are fues the circom-
. fiansesaigsfir-which we are now iterated ? Your for.'
titer concifkinrirto the Catholics have beenwite,4l4,
acrd fittinity;but Wow ymn protold that tumult eras
mienig.-the wimple; and. by way of A remedy for fo
tliiftig • ati WOW,- you
.prerpofe An take away all dlf.
tinftiOrratwi-hte reward from thole to whom the
People tire areetipmed to look upi by whofe•inilu-•
atcce-thet aft: dire/Aid, and for whore injuries-they
feel. if you mil place refiraints upon any, let thole
reftrAnts be-it:Apt-tied on the perfons who may injure
om r buts nett?' throw obitacles in the path of thofe
if you tie not impede them, will labour fur
your gond ; and who, after all, are the people whom
hy your preterit refiriCtions you exclude ? Three or
(our Catholic -Peers, wir^ not only are not difirffeEted
towaretryoui"but have given repeated proofs of their
loyalty, it the,"lazard• of their perfons, againa the
foreign rd-Alotne.flie fees of their Soverergn ; thefe
ire laded; even • from •th e pnffr6ili.y of being placed
isle tNliltioirft.-• Does. this • fyttem afford you any
thiitilikefeturit ? &import theft Catholic -Peers m
thiv-Houfe do you rhink-they could fttcce-ed in per-
Tuading- you to alsolifis the Hierarchy that they
'Mould •perfuade you to defeit the religion- in which
.yeattltive been educated or make war upon theCon-
btemOn tO-Which. Too ace attached ? I think there
Ia norpan whoimagines it. Can you be afraid of it?
On the tontrary,,ilit very eircumllances under which
Bay • would be introduced, mull make them eager,
qte every OteafiOn, to dilplay how worthy they were
of the „privilege they had obtained. Oo 'to the
-Houle Of Commons, you still fee that there, too,
the enifchieFir- as :little to be dreaded. How ftr.all
would be she number of Catholics elefted ! and to
talican immoderate calculation, even if fifty members,
one-half 'of the reprcfentation, fhould, in a long
cOurfe of years, gain admifhion, of wb:.: poilible
E.ittfequencecosmid-he a party•of comparatively fo lit-
tle impartanie•? if an evil difpolition exilled out of
italeed you Might have.danger to ap-
Prebend- from-men of fuck tonfequence as tome of
the:C.athirlics in -Ireland. I will appeal to you all, if
any mifehief hat occurred-from the mixture of Mem-
bers profeffing, a different religion from that of the
Ch,urch, who have• been vetnrned from
the'Kingdoin -of firotlandl • Has any man de-
fired:to-mot:dace -here the Prkbyterian. Govern-
simniq Jf .tbe• exclufion then of Catholics from
Parli.iment be groom:Refs. streche other rethiitions
you have thrull upon-them more confident with po-
licy ? They are excluded from the la.ve from the
Army, and from the Navy ;an unrearonable Itigina
is thrown upon them ; yet, in the cantle of my life,
which has not been a very long one, I have teen
all the principal offices of the law filled by men,
who, there is reafon to ruppore, had a Prefbyterian
education ; among there were your Lorelfhip's prede-
oeffor on the woolfack, a Chief Jollies of the King's
Bench, a Chief Jul-lice of the Common Pleas, a fdaf-
ter of the Rolls, and the yr.f.mt Chief Baron of the
Exchequer. --I will venture to fay, that when they
were appointed to their offices, there was no one who
knew or enquired what religion they might happen to
prefers. I could enumerate in the fame way 'perfons
of the .higheft eininCtion in the army and the navy.
So vain is time argument made tire of by tome, that if
the Catholic Claims should be granted,- our King
would be aProteltant, and his principal officers
land Papifls. A notion has prevailed, that if one
party acquires, another mull necelrarily lore; but to
tar is that pe,fition from being true in domellic poli-
tics, that it does not always follow, even between na-
tion and nation, that if one country makes any ac-
quifition by friendly intercourfe, another mull fuller
a lots in proportion : and here, by granting to the
Catholics what their petition requells, you give what
is of little benefit for you to withhold, but what it is
of the uttnoll importance for them to acquire.—
Dues not cvety Itadent in the law acquire tome de-
gree of coureqnence from your Lortithip's fituation
--ttmci dignity tpon-the c:ooliack, and is be not cheer.
i;il by the hope, that it may in future be his lot to
arrive at a fimilar difticdion ?'Or what parcat would

J- ..

fiffijeft his chi!d to the miferies of a feafaring life,
and the hardthips which, as a midfhipman, he mull
fuffer:were it r.ot for the profgeet of future fuceeffes,.
filch as thole. of •the Howes and the Nelfons of our
day? In the army the cafe will be found parallel
—Suppofe a number of fubaltern officers atferro"
together, can you conceive any thing morelit
tin?, than the fituation of'sinyone of them who's.,
be. told by- the-yek
.whatiVer gleiriee-or-heinottri-bt.,
hereafter may obtain from. alk thofe sglotise* *ld
.front.all thafe .konaurl. you malt be for tever exclndid:.
To you we clto, icier fay—
pede faufto
Graedia laturul fortunx przmia.
AU the fubjefts. if this equptty are exalted by the
confidenitione that there is po man who walks the'
ilieetr,...wha May n rpire to the higheß ranks of the
Srite. • ,Apd not teair/fhCsnliol;cr for ever be
excluded fromtall pOrricipatlon in thersteureltobjee3s
zitotit)les ,if thole who 4eliee, tp de-
!iii6fsihenf-thill 'hair it:. inAbeirpbwerforOver to fay,.
is is clot vie ion back, 'it isothe law
.t bet
*c.outary that presents-your aggrandizement I If wail
niull condone ,the cafe, (mail is the hope. that we can
evtr enterrsfinof fiefrig'Aornellic diferld,and isainlo-.
• fay butiel in obliZvioii. Therefore it Ls, rny.l,ordi,,
that I-repeat to your' bird:hips, that .thouglitillis
-conceftion'ill be a-fivialt sole for yOu toitave
-ed;;•lt'itill be A greit.one.fbr thenkto,recsive.g !Ewalt,
'tetriovt from-tliena a degraeliag badge: will be
Some.cogolatiou to them to refteft; that. they have
'Rrprefenratives in Paill'amerit Of the fame perfuafion
irith'theinfelves ; but if you perilft In diltrtifting the
tathalies. is it not natural that they ihould &fruit
YOU ? This has been my principal protivalcii'bring•
ing the Petitiim behre,the notice of your Lordthips 6
arid I tout' always, to the ha Moment of niflifeste7
member with the livelieft gratitttakthe attention yous
Lordffiips have been pleated taleftow Istrobt
jeet is union of 'parties, ofjcifts, of hearts Ow
I afk you.not to. grant any thafg to ine.as,yer, for
I am not prepared• to declare tabat other heal-
ing and frlutary meafures, for sunny filch ;thus
a,e, I fhould Stink we ought at: prefect to Oclpte-tit
Do not let usibut our eyes upon the,flate of Liaisindi
hut embrace this fir it opportunity that Iti beak pie.
Tented to us, of confidering the affairs of Ireland in
a conneaed view. This I confider to he a moll un,
exceptionable opportunity. Long have I fought thii
opportunity to bi jog forward the Petition, and find,
ing that the Catholics began to grow impatlent when
nothing had been done towards redee:pirrig
pledge which had been fbrmerly given themilt.hous4
it expedient to bring forward. the cneefora
It has been fait], that this knot a favgptable.fealon.
for prefenting that Petition to Parliament t.bat
.1
think this fcsfoa, of all others, the nmatiVoutable;
We have every external motive for. union t, we are
Menaced by foreign enemies ; we IlsOuld.elofe Our,
ranks, and prefent a firm phalanx ,to the foe. Let
us grant this ptillege to the Icifb not As an extorted,
right, but as alret boon. I feel enifeltf,ifighly hb-
nouled that the choice of the Lill Catholics has fallen
upon me at fn momentous a crifis; and proud-1114H I,
he if your •Lordfhips fhail conceive that I have pro,
perly executed the important charge which they.hoTe
committed to me."'

.

The motion being read from the Woo Kick,
.Lord HAWICE:SBURY role and addreged their
Lordhips nearly to the following did :.,--lifter:the
determination exprelled by the Noble Elarop, tvlio
has it'll fat down, to treat the fubjetl with all the tem-
per and moderation of which he was cap4le,
calling on the tinute.to follow his example in that re-
-4,00 can only regret that the Noble Baron teemed
lo early in bis fpeecla to forget the recommendation
with which he let out. The qoeflion, he laid, would
and rnua be carried, if not on this night, at lean, at
no very dill ant period. This was holding out a me-
nace to the Hoof:, calculated rather to defeat.the re-
commendation to temper and moderation which the
Noble Lord bad made.

Lord GRENVILLg—" My Lords, this is too
much. I appeal to your Lord!hips, if I might, I
would appeal to every Ilona Man, who heart ,me,
;
whether the Noble Lord be in order and, above
whether he does not offend againft the order of our
proceedings ? My Lords, I fay the Noble Lord has
been guilty of the groffett mifrepreftntation ? 4.gain
I a ppe.a to the Houfe, I appeal to every honeft man,
whether I have, in any one inil.ince, had recourfe to
topics of the inflammatory nature of thofe dwelt upon
by the Noble Lord? I have not introduced Tubjeds
of dangerous tendency. I have not dwelt on topics
calculated to break in on the peace of the empire.
On the contrary, J have (hewn the wi!h of my heart
to be to encourage and lama ion no invelligation ordif-
cutli.m not calculated,in my judgment,to promote the
welfare of the State, and the ultimate tranquillity of
the Empire. I with the Catholics unfettered, but not
unconneaed. Take oftheir chains Ofreligious.thral.
dotal, and' you will direaly find that in all political
views you gain lubjeas, and in eyeryfocial vOw, you
acquire ft ictids."
Lord EAWKESBURY—" I fay, my Lords, that,
to my mind,' the Noble Baron did convey the irepref-
fion which I have attempted, however feebly, to le-
ptefent in .words to your lordihips. I cannot be
tuppofed to infinuate, that I have done any thing but
colleBed the general fpirit of the phfervations or the
Noble Baron, which, if I have not faithfully deve-
loped, your Loreithips will judge: The Noble
,Baron
has talked of the triumph of the caufe of the fetiti-
oners.—(A cry of Hear! Hear !)—I am free to ORB
that the Noble Baron talked of the triumph of the
caufe by the operation of reafon, but I cannot well
imagine how a mile is to triumph; unlefs reafon be
on the fide of thole who call in reafon emphatically
to their aid. A good caufe is ever lupported by sea-
for.. In a good caufe, you need not talk about the
fopport of reafon; for to fuch a caufe you have it.
put the Noble Lord talks of the fupport of reafon to
his caufe, as if he diftruffed the inference of reafon in
a cattle fo bad.
" Huweycr, m 7 Lords, the Noble Baron tells us
that he withes this entry ultimately to triumph by
reafon—by the operation of reafon. I am ready to
meet the queltion upon that ground ; and however it
may be treated by the Noble Lord, or by others of
his turn of thinking, who will fellow him, I know how
to teat it on my part with temper; and to econtheff
the enquiry with moderation. The Noble Lord has
net thought proper to explain diffinelly the object of
his motion. He bas left it to general confideration,
and• almoff infinite details. The whole_ may he
granted, or none granted ; for if we confent:to go

into a conirnittee, it would kern et if the utmort
wstbes of the Noble Baron svNaltheitdilf be,ln all
othet,ilews, gratified. But to whit-daesihe motion
of the Noble Baroxt go gilds not to, any partial '
iabilsogation, not tti-atty partial retititin, not to any
;limited modification of the flatutes heft to
)ity entire repeal of `all laws, nikonlyata.ol
' Catho-
dic but which in any way o.perate in-eatclolion of .
other ptrlualiont;4wliii denominatiorrftreren front •
.holding the eery Erft offices in the Pate. I do not
4.3. !bat neceffarily.tht:Fitip-oiliion:iif- the Noble-Ba- '
ran warrants. that -dpsludicar but his tealoning molt
Aguipediogalk 1.411 k negtimentivof the;.Noble
•ftirink have indeed nu other isired. -tut: Whatever
‘4ereoce of .opinion there might be 'itsclulited• at to
t to pil.,e fent Petition, 'I certainly havedeptlicated the
cycolfion now brought on, at die Mont moment.
:and' in the.prefent circortirtancesa • -..Nto jnft cart is
"segosado/ this great tturior.X.,. by :441.5(e.wbovannoi
,arliat .properly• one- moment
.fictui what. Aridly is.the• conifers* °L:somber. •rflowt
,ever lAtaigagree front fume, oragree•with others:
however.l lug oat- be of xminiots 'that the'elaints. of
the. Petitioners ongbt4o-heiwenta it anytime, Purl
"others may thirtk, that they..ought to 'be -granted; hitt
"%Sot granted, now; I am r• frce;tor,lay, .shat Art Affects
have, foatcd. by me to:prevent the queßina being.
,trot t. forward, ;,and tha-terped'able thrtilentanl '
who, Is in the. hemensmoy .of7Lreloftlr..To Pst.ent tO, '
being.agilatedin the.ptefeut •tronjedure., rlitutasof-
ter allithat -has beta -done to 'point ' nµtto the•Peti-
tionemths,right.line of their.dutya they havethlnitht •
proper. to commit their interaits•to a party -elatedly
hoftile,to his gajefty'reGosternment,' I feel it to be
-my ditty to mylelfcmycomory,,-to youliLordfirips,
and-to the Petitio:xers, co, nate, what my-opinion is
of 14e.tetition .sow hefore-your:LordOsipalor coma
deriOnn, My lords, spinions•are
formed. Ilia.te.confidered this fobjed dime leaf...
-...fhe•invelii_gatient of- she queftion before- us- to-night
has.occupied,my mind .a;very long -parted indeed;
/et though my opinion is, that the prelent time is
improper, this • opinion is •not founded on the cir-
cumilance of the-impropriety as•to time, •but on ge.
neral.merits. • hiy.objedions apply to. .any •time,
liewever,peculietly.didinguilhed, .when she queftiou
is, .or. can,or; could -he, •lirought iforward; sand
though -wellineJ ined to, lend my,fandionto rational
rofornos..l am not apprehenfive, ..that in oppofing
oponthis quellion the weight of my.dilfent. to re.
iatms-of .the nature of that fought by she Petition,
1 iletrad•froot !the-eh:trader lo juftly enjoyed.by the:
kitith ,Gotasnmeat '7for -moderation, love of free
skim, and-general regard-to sheinterefit of homani
ty. Without refemtiog any thing to -be explained
hereafter, I fay that the.qaellion would meet withmy
oppplition brouglat,foratard almott at any period.
..it, in fayiog this, 4.d0 not fay, as to political oc-
curreoces, haw far. events might operate to induce
different opinions. Yet the country, as to all fend.
merits, all views, all' feelings, all the impreirsonaater
had of this great oneftion, the fenfe•of this •sountrg,
and of the-rofteding.pert of she world, are againfl
she l`koble Baron tontl" if I jhould hefitate• reloading
flat oh,arader of the elefignsi motives, and (thirds of
the Noble Baron, mankind could not allow me to
remain indifferent to long eflablithedhabits of think-
ing, and the confequences of principle, Which ito
change of times can materially alter. Very naturally
qty viewis not the fame as that of the-Noble Baron,
whole • views differ-sot only from mines but-front
thole of .all who have, to my knowledge, made this
fubied -particularly their findy. On .the °diet. hand.
if the q ueltion werethe toletationofreligionsopinions
I mutt think, my Lords, that my difetotition to indtd •
gene& is not lets eompreheolive than that of the'Nehle
Baron, or any other man wilhing the freedom of
either religious or political opitiolis. As to tbitfeel-
ing of toleration, something it may, however, be re-
quifite to remark, in order to justify myfell in the
vote I (hall give this night, and with reference to the
dedudions which I until feel it incunibeneon me to
infer from the arguments which I Mad lubirit to your
laordihips. As to the quellion calf toleration, I have
as Prong a feeling as any Noble Lord oldie impor-
tance of tolerating liberal 'notions in religion ; and I
remember the queftion that has been started tending
to decide whether infidelity or fuperilition, and fano-
ticifm, were lets confiftent with the .fafety of a sa-
tion and common-wealth. Without being over-friend-
ly to toleration, I can safely obferve that•from the ex-
ample of the hillory oldie world, Tani of opinion that
nogroater bane to human fociety con arifc than infi.
delity: We have had an example of this in our own
times. The spleitioat, indeed, •was referved for tilde
times ; for in the centre of Europe an atheiflical re-
public .was reared up, but, fortunately, van,llied
with the feafon that gave it birth. That fyftem, flow-
ever, cannot have -ailed to make a great and tailing
impreffion on the minds of men. It lei ton the mind
perfualion, that the violence of fanaticifm, in the
waft ages of the world, never equalled the intole-
, ranee, intemperance, and wickednefs of the F,ench
Revolutionists. All the deviations of other countries,
and of•feds in religion, from the rules and precepts
of moderation and humanity, were trivial, compared
to the atrocity of the first revolutienifis of France. 1
severities of teligions bodice were clemene.y
compared to the condud of the atheiltical toletants
pf Republican France. ..flecolleding what occurred •1
in that country. n the period of the world.to which
7 I allude, i will fay that thole who have any religion
be,it what it :may, are in a better fituation than if .
they had none. The Catholics are not the claft of
Chrillians in whom I feel the molt confidence, nay,
they are thole in whom I feel the !call, and for whom
as a led, I have the lealt refoed. Havipg hated •
this, I have no difficulty in laying, that there are ,
tome Catholics I believe as loyal and !toilet as any
men ; yet whatever tenets they may profefs, I know
their great lubmilfion is not real. Still the Catltolii-s
may be and ate as virtuous, loyal, and honell as men
can be in face.refpeds, though only fo in a reds
ed fettle. With this view of the flihjed. I come to the
principles of the Law and Conititution, thole prin.
cipks which have been donfidered the'beft support of
the Throne in Church and State ; the bulwat ks of
oueinititutions, and guarantee of Eatery to our coun-
try, which I hope Noble Lords will not abandon
without llronger reasons than thole urged by the
Noble Baron. Yet whilft I allow that our laws are
excellent and ought to be fupported, I do not mean
to lay that laws, however wife, are infallible, or
ought to be considered eternal. All laws are liable to
Tuition." and if circumstances demand that, it may
Of even wile to abrogate great and important laws.—

On the other hand, I do fay, that there are law;
which are the land marks of our.Cosalitittion, flit.
compaa between the governors and the goveinec! :
' and though the modification of thefe, on a cafe made
out, might be expedient, yet fuch laws ought not
to be changed without the greatell necellity.
4, Let us lock at the prefent queflion as bearir.g
. upon,-or. affigted by our laws. The great_ and fore
' principreadieliw,Thy the ACt of Sfrtlement, is, :hat
the King of this coootry is. kfrolefiarit, and bolds
Commanionitlthitie-Churth Of-England. as by law
ellablilited. --OtiralieNtore felt this, and. departed no
farther than neceffity -obliged them, from, the fpirit
of theleW iiiderisillitinibn. 'When they did, how.
ever, function' with the tortflitulion,.rhey foetid at
idl Alm' itiparts, end put it to thernfehres.-Whetker
if it. prinee r ame in of a different religion, froni•fhat
eftabidhed by the laws, they -ooght foot to 1.W.1 the
innovation?. 'They were aware of the ineofiviiiiincei '
:hind great it was, of- bteiikitig in on the•llite erffttecer
lion, yet thatinconvenience,theyelidineur, thinTitig
%haradrrkting i priftee Of'll rtligloOld!ffering
.fi ant
the eltabelltedreqtgion, wohtd he a gyeat •zr• cid. The.
clavi whichlettlee'the f'icceflion of the drown, is net
Mounded-MP temporary Oleos 'of convetletice; or
fiellcipecalarinto but on eiperience, and:well weighed
rand !folly 'tnanfred principle. ""1144 • whO:ffornAl
oliii law, came to the cOnclnfiop that the prineeithelt
• bektf 'the ellablithed -religion of the 'Rave, othi:Sitire
that he wouldlntfeit the crown. 'ltfeltabliffdrigtbis
%principle another grows out of it, that If it•be:steeX
far y-lf y‘ raw that The-Prince • thould he Protelatit,'itis
jikewife nudettiably fo that his chief Councillors, note
intimate adsifers; and *thole the he heft in' his code-
dente, thould Ilkiwife be of the-ettoollesei :Protelfist
religion. Surely no one will Contend that the'Cohn-
eillori of theSovoreign thOuld.ntif be of the fame te.
ligion with the Soseitign; *.l7grant that even'ef this
principle thereonarbo fume modification ;•.yet ailiti-
itil Cirown pre-Mork* a' lawn it Cooßitution OfoGif-
vestment. The litonerchiCal'Eftallithxnent at the
Rest:dation, was fonaded an the vdryftiiintiple-for
which I now 'contend. ' And' I cannot conteivefei
abfurd,fo extravagant a propotition as that We welts
fopport one and bieak in on ettether line of the fuccef-
lion, and are to hate alCatholic'Chancitior; Cadthrie
judges, and the whole Civil Atintinifirationlin•the
hands of Catholics. Arguing, istirraio, you might Tay,
indeed, that, in the cafe of the Crown, you wade remit
the law;. but how onaceounzabk to alledgethat the
Crown (hall be Protatllent. odd yet ks-adstfritt mead
not. • The refpee!for the Crown. howeliet,.has teal
marked inifoimer time. The Crown was . treatetas
the fu tied imam .atteat pte dto berreated. 'lrfpnint
of faa, ft wee what -was ilotteitt thestime.ettChttrbee
11. for then theybegao agninff Prefliytetints,..attivo
rtes. and, Diffenters dfall idefetiptions ; but during the
whole •time no A& ovas &ales tts the:Crew/1. 'Die
tidied was to 'be of therEflablithed ' Religion; the
Gown was not. When thelElloke of Yotklifecaviet
Catholic, and was cootir to the Crown,-it Writ laid
that the circundianee Of 'his Avower of Cattholicalat
was, as tn. the law of fucoelfiyin, orpc,fat9e, 'bit he
was not exeluded front ille—Thront. Now in-ptiint
of re:foul:to, and in point of fee,' if the limitationlf
the Crown was neceffary, it was -more fo to refitiift
the Councillors of the Crown.' As to political power,
your Lordthips will, however,"locik .'to' it with -jets.
leafy, .attd will sot place it in utivrerthy'handS ;let
handsin which it can be ibufed is itha view ofpolkied
fopeemacy. Thofe who stifpenfe the fisestfrs'olthe
(lingo, timid be of the ritligion elf the Colin; The
inference from the argument of the Noble haronls.
however; that be would difpenfi with tees altigithet.
Upon the practical effects of the motions, it it neceffs-
rr to late to your Lordthip's in what Diffentere 'and
Catholics differ, and to (hew that onr Engin Diffen-
ters differ more from the Church than the Catholics.
There are many tenets in which Catholics teem to
come nearer the Church than Diffenters; yet in one
molt effentisrl point the Catholic is more at variance
with the Church. and that is in regard •to internal
Government. The Diffenter admits the right of the
Church to internal Government, but the Catholic
contends for external Governnieny and the .fupre-
nntcy of the Church of Ronne. This' foreign OM-
diftion is -Rated to be merely eccleftallical; but no
one who relic& on the thing will fail to confider it
as political. • Will Noble Lords confider that great
part of the lands of another part of the Empire
is in the hands of the Catholics, and will not
that give them political power-? • Now the Catholics,
honeltly, I will fuppofe, think the Church of- Eng-
land -heretical and idolatrous. And if they, bybeing
admitted to the firft offices in the Race, gain 'power,
who will effort himfelf that they will not inculcate
the duet, ire, that lance they are not of the Church,
they ought tact to be called upon to contribute to the
maintenance of the Church ? If the Catholics be fi6-
nek men, they mull prefer their ovrntenets to any other.
and becaufe of that they ought to be received with jet-
loufy. hof it is Paid, that with a Proteßant King, no-
thing can happen to give the Catholics power. Now,
on their owripriociples, this mull be futficient to in-
dace them not to be zealous, or at all defircus, to
compafs the ends of their prefent petition; for,.mott
affnredly, they with forpower, without which reek
in the Rate would be idle and nugatory. If however.
with a Proteftant Prince, they could gain no afeen-
• dancy, or acquire power, compliance with their Pe-
tition would be worth nothing to the Petitioners.
—if, on the other band, you think there will be no
danger in abrogating the laws, do it openly. The
argument. of the Noble Baron applies to trotting
employments to Catholics. and qualifying them tv
fit in Pariiament. I will not go deeply into this
quettion ; I think that when the eleeive franchife was
granted them enough was done, but that has net
fatisfied ; andl we are called upon to expole our fcct:-
rity, by grunting what I do believe will end in Nit-
-As to the confideration r.f the queflion, on EIT
ground of time, I wholly differ in opinion from the
Noble. Baron; and contend that the moll dangercus
time we could choofe is that when the power tailing
in France is clofely connefled as it is with the Pope
• of Rome. The ground of this opinion was feen in
the rebellion of 1798. But if you grant the Cathc-
tics what they a& now, will they not elk more, v.hot
we know that no footer were the conceffions made in
1793, than they e,xpreffed that farther conceffi,ins
would enfue ? The charader of the Catholics if they
did acquire power, we can coiled from the hiltory
• of the short period when one of the Stuarts held tern-
, porary fway in Ireland; for there were then the nioß
diabolical laws enaaed and enforced is the dittrie;
.l of the Catholic Goverttment. I.ly.the .xerolution a