Star.
London, England, 1830-05-21 00:00:00

nourable a man as ever breathed, the minister representing his go-
vernment in this country—that that was no intention on the part
Il inic means,
haalsris to
right
ght -
of the United States, either byrofvorcece of Texanorbyanyolccwr
seasseasitself of that important province
hon. diend had alluded. He trusted that it was not only the inten.
tion of that government not to possess itself of that territory by force
or compulsion, but that it would also exert itself to prevent its sub.
jests from taking possession by other modes, such as unauthorised
settlements, and the appropriation of uncultivated tracts of land.
He did hope that the government of the United States would have
justice and generosity enough to discourage all such modes of ag.
greesion upon the. territory of a weaker state, as well as to disclaim
all views and intentions of aggrandisement on its own part. He
should not now detain the house longer ; he trusted he had said
enough to shew that upon this one single fact this country was not
called upon by its Juiciest to form a defensive alliance with Mexico,
against the aggression of a neighbouring State, and also that the
honour of England was not involved in her undertaking the defence
of the former provinces bf Spain, against the attempts of the mo-
ther country to re-establish her authority. (Cheers.)
Sir R. W ILSON asserted, that to his own knowledge a commu.
nication was made to Mr. Canning by the Mexican and Columbian
ministers, informing him that an expedition was preparing for a de.
scent upon Cuba, which design was abandoned in consequence of
Mr. Canning's interdiction. He also had in his possession a docu-
ment, communicated to him from Gen. Bolivar, in which he was
informed that that General was about to make an attack upon Porto
Rico with 4,000 men, then assembled at Carthagena. In deference
to the wishes known to be those of Mr. Canning, that expedition
was also abandoned. He contended that while the states of South
America had thus been prevented from retaliating upon Spain by
the intervention of this country, we were bound to prevent Spain
continuing hostilities against the colonies. It was said that Spain
was not likely to repeat her attempts to reconquer 31..xic0 after the
signal failure of General Harradas last year. Hut he could state
as a fact that a proposition had been made to the Government of
Spain to send out 25,000 troops to Cuba, and an engagement was
offered by the Government of Cuba to restore the authority of the
Mother Country in Mexico. lie knew that lists had been opened in
the different regiments in Spain for the men to enrol themselves as vo.
luntftrs fur this expedition, and that funds had been appropriated
for it by the Chambers of the local Governments. Now whether
the attack was actually made or nut, this very demonstration con.
stitutcd the evil in Mexico. and prevented the settlement and pros-
perity of that country. Besides these difficulties, it could not be
denied that her government must be greatly embarrassed by the in.
cursion of six thousand people from the United States, called Squat.
tent who had established themselves in the province of Texas,
where they refused to acknowledge any law or government but their
own, and were continually increasing in number. This situation
of things was one which called for the most anxious attention of
England, it nut for her interference by force. It was as necessary
to preserve the balance of power in the other hemisphere as in Eu.l
rope ; and the only means of doing so was by supporting the power
and the integrity of the Mexican Sates.
Mr. BARING said that this was the most important subject with
reference to the industry of this country which could come under the
consideration of the house. It was impossible to hear the speech of
his right hon. friend, allowing for the caution necessary to be ob.
served in his official situation, and not be impressed with the very
great importance which he attached to the subject. He could not
but think that great danger was to be apprehended from the occupa.
don of the province of Texas by these subjects of the United States.
It was very well for his right hon. friend to speak of his confidence
in the assurances which he r. crived from the ministers of the United
States; but, with the known habits of these people, if they were
allowed to go on in the occupation of the province, it was not all the
presidents, or all the secretaries of state that ever existed, who could
withdraw them from it, or courroul them. The only means of
checking the disposition of the United States to acquire universal
empire on the American continent, and the only true policy of this
country, was to erect Mexico into a substantial barrier against en-
croachment. Those two powers were ultimately destined to contend
for the mastery of that vast continent ; and the interests of England
pointed out that we should take the most prompt means of enabling
Mexico to use her own national power for the protection and
vindication of her own rights. When gentlemen talked
of the trade of one part of the country as compared with that of an.
other, it was absolutely trifling as compared with the important in-
terests of trade connected with this question. If gentlemen looked
to our exports they would see how comparatively trifling all other
interests were. They would see that these New States of
America, even in their present distracted and impoverished condi-
tion, took from us annually nine millions of official value in ma.
nufactured goods, which was two-thirds more than the whole
value taken from us by Russia, Sweden, Norway, Denmark,
Prussia, France, Portugal, and Spain, altogether. Those coun.
tries took from us about 3,500,0001. of official value, while the
South American States took upwards of nine millions. Gentlemen
could not but see the vast importance of upholding this market for
our produce when they considered that the whole of our exports to
North America, the market which was formerly considered the great
sheet-anchor of our own manufacturing industry, took from us only
0,600,0001. Did not this point out to England the great policy of
encouraging as much as possible the growing prosperity and means
of consumption of these countries, which could never become our naval
and probably not for • century at least our manufacturing rivals ? Of
these exports it was curious to sec the distribution according to
the degree of tranquillity enjoyed by the different States. In
Brasil, where there was an established government, with an em.
peror indeed, but still with a very good constitution, and where
they were not teased by the petty warfare of the mother coup.
try, were indeed they were rather the teasers than the teased, no
less than six millions of our exports found their way. In the
case of Chili, which was one of the poorest of the states, but
which from its remoteness was more free from external interfer-
ence, the value of the manufactures taken from us was 1,100,000 L
while Mexico, by far the richest and most extensive state of the
whole, laid out no more than 400,0001. The reason of this was
that the country was sweating and bleeding to death under the
burden of a military force, which she was obliged to keep up to
repel foreign aggression. The consequence of this was, that no
British property was safe, the convoys of British merchants being
plundered by any chief that happened to alms the road they were
travelling, and that law and order, the foundations of prosperity,
could no where be established. Then with regard to the precious
metals, so interesting to this country in the artificial state in which
it was placed, one of the mines of Mexico, belonging to an English'
Company,during the last year produced more silver than the annual
produce of the whole of Europe. According to the estimate of M. I
Humboldt, the produce of the European mines was LlO,OOO marks
annually, whereas from one mine in Mexico last year was produced
250,000 marks. About what the true interests of this country re.
quired there could be no doubt, and he thought it would be but fair
to all parties, if this teasing and impotent system were continued
by Spain, that we should make a frank declaration that interests
had grown up to other nations in the welfare of South America
which would no longer suffer us to permit the continuance of a
war which had no prospect of a termination favourable to Spain.
He had heard with great satisfaction and pleasure the views
which his tight honourable friend took of the subject, and the
importance which he attached to it. He was sure that in it
lay the very greatest considerations of our own national welfare.
Politicians, and travellers, and men of learning, might turn to Athens
and to Sparta as the object of their interest and their study, but the
industry of Sheffield and of Leeds must look to the shores of Ame-
rica for its interests and its reward.

Lord J. RUSSELL contended that there was no ground for the
interference of this country by force, although he hoped that 'be
war between Spain and the South American states would speedily
be brought to a termination by our friendly remonstrances.
Mr. Alderman THOM PEON agreed in all that bad been said of
the very great importance of this question, and trusted that by the
course to be pursued by his Majesty's Government. our relations
with South America would soon be placed on a more satisfactory
begs.

' Mr. BRIGHT contended that the question of the indepen.
deuce and prosperity of the South American States was one
which not only interested this country in the highest degree,
but the whole world. It was of the very last importance that
Cuba should be preserved perpetually, either as a dependency upon
Spain or as an independent State.
The petition having been read,
Mr. HUSKISSON, in moving that it be printed, said that be
had heard with the greatest pleasure every sentence whicir fell
from his right hon. friend the Secretary of State for the Home
Department. The unsettled state of affairs gave the American ma.
chants great advantage over the British merchant. The American
was near the scene of action; the Englishman was at a distance.
He regretted to hear that an attack would be permitted on Cuba.
The government of this country ought not to be neutral on that
point; it ought to say, on the one hand, that Cuba should not be
attacked; and on the other, that Mexico should not be attacked, be.
cause we had great Interests in each place to protect. His right
boo. Mend had alluded to the conduct of Spain in 1779, with res-
pect to our then North American colonies, and he (Mr. Huskieson)
drew from that conduct the inference that we bad a right now to
follow it, and to say to Spain, Desist from your futile claims and
alarms, and do justice to the Mexicans. Spain ought to look at home.
and endeavour to re-establish herself as a great Power in Europe,
and the ...us way to do se was to give up foreign claims which else
could never hope to enforce. If this country was to maintain her
present position, the State of Mexico must be watched ; for one of
the greatest authorities on this subject in the United ihdee bad de.
Glared that the United States would for the proud be quiet; but
the State of Texas would advance, till at the last the United States
would be obliged to extend to it the panoply of her ecessdention.
The petition was ordered to be printed.
BREACH OP PRIVILEGE.
Mr. BENSON called the attendee of the house to thousand of
Mr. Thomas Eyre Lee, who bad acted es agent to a Winer the fgt.

matlen of a Liverpool, Birmingham, and London Junction Canal.
Since he had first noticed the subject. Mr. Lee had petitioned the
house, and prayed to be heard by counsel in refutation of the charges
(Mr. Benson) contended that
thway.b)ehehhad bee
arges wneirenadjue a
fully borne out by the facts of the ease. The hon. member then
ttiliandnst hthiamt.thHee statement he had made was
re-
peated the substance of his former statement, and alluded to the evi-
-1 dence taken before the Committee on the late bill in support of it.—
He considered that the proposed company was nothing short of a
babble; and as Mr. Lee had been the most active in imposing it on
the house, he should conclude by moving a resolution to the effect,
that Mr. Thomas Eyre Lee having so conducted himself, had been
guilty of a breach of the privileges of that house, and that he be
called to the bar of the house and reprimanded for the same.
The SPEAKER intimated to tke hon. member that it was ne-
cessary that the Order of the Day for the further consideration of the
Report of the Committee should be first read.
The Order of the Day was then read, after which,
Lord CLIVE moved that Thomas Eyre Lee be called to the bar
of the house and heard on the subject matter of the petition which
he had forwarded to the house respecting his conduct concerning the
Birmingham and London Junction Canal Bill.
The motion being agreed to, Mr. Thomas Eyre Lee torus called
to the bar, and informed that the house had granted the prayer of
his petition.
Mr. T. E. LEE having read the petition which he had for.
welded to the House, assured the House of the truth of its
assertions. He contended that this canal, if made, would be
a great public benefit; that he had not broken the standing
orders of the House; and that he had acted with perfect good
faith, not having wished in any way to impose upon the House;
that many of the shareholders were men of large property,
although they had been represented to the House as of inferior
station ; that the names of the subscribers had not been impro-
perly affixed ; and that no one had suffered from the issuing of script
or any other document which might have been improperly used.—
In conclusion, he thanked the house for its indulgence in hearing
him, and contended that he had only acted as many of his predeces-
sors had done, and not with the slightest intention to mislead or to
impose upon the house. If he had erred, it had been most unin-
tentionally and unknowingly, and therefore lie hoped the house
would not visit him with its displeasure.
Mr. Lee having withdrawn.
Mr. BEN-ON said Mr. Lee had been heard in his defence. but
had uttered nothing which had shaken the conclusions to which he
(Mr. Benson) had come. He thought Mr. bee had committed a
breach of privilege, and therefore he moved the resolution which he
had before wished to propose when, in point of order, the order of
the day was to be read.
The resolution having been put,
Lord CLIVE, without at all endeavouring to screen Mr. E. Lee
case
echwhuaud blden cant
ieuduee upon
rhehousehoped
ru
cfroircumianlsitathnecescenosfutrle wlook 'upon it
him, t tat the
with a lenient eye. The fault did not entirely originate with Mr.
Lee, but, in reality, with the wording of the standing orders them.
selves. He was glad an hon. friend of his would shortly move an
amendment of these orders.

Colonel PEEL said that he, as a Member of the Committee,
fully concurred with the Report made, especially with that part
of it which reterred to the depositing of the list of subscribers
to the intended canal. Mr. Lee had been warned to be careful how
he proceeded, and yet he had taken the cootie he had done in de..
fiance of all that had been said to him. A most gross breach of the
privileges of that House had been made, and Mr. E. Lee was the
responsible party. He did not wish to connect Mr. Lee with the
forgeries, or any such gross matter, but he should certainly support
the motion of his honourable friend (Mr. Benson), for the subject
was one upon which the !louse could not be too particular : it was
no satisfaction to those opposed to the bubble to say that it must be
detected before the House of Lords ; they ought not to be put to
the expense of going before that trinunal. ( Ilear.)
Mr. Alderman WAITH MAN supported the Report of the Com-
mittee. lie would not say this was the most atrocious transaction
that Isad ever come before the house, because he knew of a hundred
others that were at the least as bad. [The hon. alderman then al-
luded to the evidence of the broker to the Company, to shew that
the whole affair was a gross and infamous bubble.] The public
were rubbed by these bubble transactions. For one, he should con.
eider that the house could not pass over the conduct of the indi-
vidual in a milder manner than that proposed.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said, as he was a member of the cern-
'Mitre he felt anxious to make a few observations. The hon.
member for Stafford said Mr. Lee knew nothing of the business
until the 11th of May ;—this might be true, the subscribers to
the undertaking might be forged, yet Mr. Lee might be innocent.
The parties entrusted had not called • meeting. Mr. Levy was
the Alpha and the Omega of the concern. But he would ask,
was not Mr. Lee on the 24th of February cognisant of the point
in questions (Hear.) He would, with permission of the house,
shew that Mr. Lee came to town on the 10th of February, and was
told the fictitious character of the list. The hon. member then went
into an examination of the evidence adduced before the committee,
and contended that Mr. Lee had not complied with the spirit of the
standing order of the bout?, which required a list of bona fide sub-
scribers to any undertaking, and his conduct throughout was such
as ought to be noticed by the house. Could hon. members believe
that up to the 11th of March, Mr. Lee was ignorant of the charac-
ter of this list ? No doubt could exist but that he was privy to It,
and had therefore rendered himself culpable.

Sir J. WROTTESLEY thought the hon. member who had just
sat down, had put the question very unfairly, and he wished to
follow him on the points of his arguments. In order to do so, he
must advert to certain parts of the voluminous evidence which had
been brought forward, and which, in his (Sir J.W.'s) opinion,would
entirely exculpate Mr. Lee front any guilty knowledge of supplying
a false list of subscribers. The hon. baronet here read certain parts
of the evidence, during which some member cried " Question !"
He Sir J. WROTTESLEY (with some warmth)--Are we to blast
the character of a gentleman without inquiry. 1 thought I was sit-
dug in the company of gentlemen. I appml, Sir, to you (address-
ing the Speaker) for protection ; such conduct is not becoming mem-
bers of the House of Commons. The honourable member then
proceeded. The fact was, Mr. Lee went to the Bankers and
received the letters from which he made out the list, and not a
single name did he insert in that list without producing a letter.
—(Hear, hear.) If the house were now to censure Mr. Ice, they
must go the length of saying that every solicitor who introduced a
bill, on depositing a list in the private bill office, should vouch that
it contained the real names of persons and property. In all the
bubble schemes of 1826 and 1826, not a single Instance was on re.
cord of any motion being made to bring any of the patties to the bar
of the house. He could not think a scheme to connect Nottingham
with Birmingham, and sanctioned as it was by Mr. Telford, could
be designated a bubble. Not a single individual Intl been injured
by the conduct of Mr. Lee. He would leave in the hands of the
house the character of this gentleman, who had never, on any occa-
sion, done any thing to forfeit his reputation, and be hoped no hon.
member would vote on the present occasion who had not made him-
self perfectly acquainted with the case.
Mrr. SLANEY said this was not a question, as stated by the
hon. alderman, relative to a bubble company. He did not think it
could be thus designated, after it had been recommended by one of
the first engineers of the country. The question was, did Mr. Lee
' bring forward the list with a guilty knowledge, and with an intention
to commit a fraud upon the house. He thought no such decision
could be come to. Mr. liee might have acted incautious, but certainly
not guilty, and as such his punishment had already been sufficient.
He could assure the House, on the best authority, that 31r. Lee's
character, up to the present time, remained untarnished ; he bad
never connected himself with any bubble companies, and if he
had now committed an error it was one of negligence, and not
of a guilty knowledge, and certainly did not call for the severe
punishment of being called to the bar, and reprimanded by the
Speaker.
Mr. FYLER thought that Mr. Lee had acted fairly and honour-
ably, and the house had not ought to come to the conclusion that
the undertaking could be termed a bobble company. Ile should vote
against the motion for calling him to the bar.
Sir HENRY PARNELL said, be knew that Mr.Telford thought
the undertaking would prove one of the greatest improvements in the
county. Re thought therefore on such evidence, it could not be
called a bubble scheme . The hoc. baronet vindicated the conduct
of Mr. Lee.

Mr. C. W. WYNNE said, if Mr. Lee had made out a fictitious
list with scanty knowledge, the censure of the house would not be
auScient—ise ought to be committed to Newgate for a length of
time. No we could doubt but that he had acted, at all events,
with great incaution. He might have easily ascertained the con.
rectnees of the list, but he had neglected to do so. A very little in.
quiry would bare enabled him to judge whether the names were
real ones or not. The house was bound to watch over the correct-
ness of the business brought before it. lie certainly thought Mr.
Lee's conduct such as called for the admonition of the chair.
Mr. BROUGHAM thought, with the right hon. who
spoke last, that an admonition, if Mr. Lee had act with a guilty
knowledge, was very inadequate. But the House had no direct evi.
dent,' before it; all the evidence was second-hand ; they ought,
therefore, to pause before they came to a resolution that would bloat
the character of any individual He did not say they had not the
power to agree to the resolution, or that it was without precedent.
He did think, however, they ought to examine witnesses Wore
they came to a critninatory resolution, which held Mr. Lee
up to the public as an individeal capable of committing a
Bud less Pediment ; but if he had done so, the resolution ought
to be Mond up by further prelims& He (Mr. Brougham)
hod hegira We the eisaroar of I& Leo, and he found it to be
mMt Imnsurbies he ossdiase, hstrovir, but think that Mr. awe
hod send with Inerilio, but or to AN degree as to call for each
.ached essense her the blues es this permed by the resolution.
Be woe* dr buss, be the sake of jostles, not to ran headlong
into a ruts it wadi art on sews a aim* en a respectable awn.