Star.
London, England, 1822-06-20 00:00:00

proceeding, as if the Hon. Gentleman had gone Gni
With his motion—(Galls of Chair, chair!).
The SPEAKER stated, dint on those occasions al
degree of courtesy was allowed that might ndt be
iti ietly comormable to the rules of the House.
Mr. PLUNKETT resumed, and stated, that much
rni4lit be done to ameliorate the present system of
tithes, and did not doubt that some measure to that
ptnpo‘e would be brought forward next Session. He
would submit to the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Daly) who;
tier at present his motion would not be prejudicial ?
NIT. DALY, after what he had heard from tke two
Right Honourable Gentlemen, should not persist in.
his ni 'Lion.
Mr. NUKE observed, that as the Hon. Gentleman
bad renounced the subject, he himself should then
bring the subject of Irish Tithes before the House..-,
The expense of the military force in Ireland then
amounted to two millions, though in 1792 the expense'
had only been half a million. The tithes might be
regarded as the principal cause of the disturbances
end disaffection that prevailed in Ireland. He was of
on;nion that Church property bore no affinity to the
rizhts of private property; as the one was at the dis-
posal of the Legislature, saving existing and vested
right,. He must protest against the opinion that any
kind of Church Establishment was essential to the
Christian Religion. An establishment was only a
means for the attainment of an end, and in the present
case was much too expensive for the end in view.—
In Leland there were 24 Bishops and Archbishop;
1270 beneficed Clergymen, with a revenue of a mil-
lion 01 money, while the number of the inhabitants
belonging to the Established Church was only five
bandred thousand. In one parish the tithes had risen
from £l4O to £BOO. While the landed proprietors
had reduced their rents a quarter, and, in some cases,
a half, the Bishop of Waterford had increased his
tithes four-pence per acre, though the great bulk
of the population of his diocese was Catholic.—
That fact he stated on the respectable autlicnity of
Lord Glengall. He was sorry that so many Irish-
men had entreated the Hon. Gentleman to with-
draw his motion, and to allow their countrymen to,
remain six months in a state of misery and suffering.
When the Government refused redress, resistance was
resource--(Cries of Hear,fratn the Ministerial
vie of the House). Neither Archbishops nor Bishops
had done their duty, for things had come to that
pass that it was impossible to mince matters. Out of
a Clergy of 1270 persons there were 537 Non-resi-
dents. On the subject of absentees, he said, he had
heard that the late Bishop of Derry was absent for
fifteen or twenty years. He estimated the property
cf the different Sees of Ireland that it amounted to
(.l-llths of the whole land of Ireland ; so that he be •
Leved the whole Continent of Europe had not such a
revenue as the Irish Clergy. Their object was to see
how much land belonged to every Irish Bishop, and
then he believed, by releasing them, would be suffi-
cient to pay well the whole Clergy of Ireland, both
Protestants and Catholics. He believed Great Britain
the only country in Europe where 1-10th of the pro-
duct of the soil was taken by the Clergy ; and yet he
maintained that the duties of the Clergy were worse
done. He disclaimed the notion that Government must
depend on the Church. The acts of a Government that
depended for support on the Clergy must be bad (Hew).
At the same time he was not against hiving an Esta-
blished Church. In Sicily the rithes might amount
to nearly I.loth ; but in Piedmont not more than
1-20th or 1-15th. In Prussia the Government paid
the Clergy. In the Netherlands the Protestant and
Catholic Clergy were paid by the State. After these
details he submitted, whether the state of the Irish
Clergy ought not to be inquired into? It wmild also
be for theliouse to consider the state of Education
and the collection of Tithes in Ireland, as well as
whether the system of absenteeship was to be allowed
to continue. We had in a few years paid above
600,0001. for rebuilding glebe houses, and paying
the Curates, whom the Rectors and Vicars ought to
have paid for doing their duty for them. After the
manner in which the Hon. Gentleman threw up his
motion, he should not have satisfied himself, or have
done his duty, if he had not taken up the subject.—
Ireland looked to them for a complete review of the
whole Church system of that country. In doing so,
the object he had in view was not to do injury to any
man now living who had a See ; bat to commence
the reform under the time of the new Diocesans. He
should, therefore, as had been suggested to him,
more for certain documents, and then that the House
should go early into the revision of the Tithe System
in Ireland ; and the manner in which Tidies are col-
lected in that country.
Mr. ELLICE rose with much satisfaction to second
the motion, especially after it had been given up by
his Hon. Friend opposite. Considering the miseries
of Ireland, he thought the Session should not be al-
lowed to pass over without giving the Irish nation to
understand that they were in earnest in their wish to
afford them perfect and permanent relief.
Mr. D. BROWNE cautioned all those who wished
for a commutation of tithes from being deceived by
the revolutionary speech and opinion of the Hon.
mover. If no one else would bring forward a motion
for a commutation of tithes, in the next Session, lie
would; but he would have nothing to do with therevo-
lutionary measure of the Hon. Member for Montrose.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT had often to condemn the
conduct of Government in keeping back from time
to time measures of vital importance to Ireland ; and
Tle now objected to this proposed delay, because, four
years ago, the Noble Lord at the head of the Go-
vernment had stated that they would soon be brought
forward; and though commutation of tithes might
not be applicable to England, they might yet be
found useful in Ireland. After that declaration, and
'he delay consequent upon it, lie could not consent
that the House should separate before it came to a
Resolution that early in next Session it would go
•.ito the discussion of this subject. This was a pledge
due to the people of Ireland, in order to quiet their
minds. There were glebes in Ireland of fifteen and
. s;tteen hundred acres, without a single house or
church on them ; and he instanced a case of four'
parishes being united to make one great living for
the son of an Irish Bishop ; and 5004 granted by the
Public for building another church for them, were
diverted flow their proper channel. Was this a
state of things to be endured ?—(Hear)—Daily and
'hourly the Protestant population of the country places
of Ireland was diminishing, becattse there were no
churches near to which the people could resort.—
The mile would not be debarred from religious