Star.
London, England, 1831-09-21 00:00:00

Tilt ROTIISAY CASTLE..

Mr. SIOSTYN presented a petition from Resumer's,
and other places in Wales, respecting the loss of the Roth-
say Cattle, and praying a legislative enactment to prevent a
recurrence of the catastrophe.
Colonel SIBTHORP supported the prayer of the peti•
tion, and expressed his intention to move for leave to bring
in a Bill upon the subject, as soon as the Commi tee then
sitting upon it should have come to adecision.
tlr. lIITNIE thought that if persons were Indifferent
about their lives and properties, by embarking on board
vessels without any knowledge of their sea worthiness, legis.
• lative interference would be useless.
S r T. BARING was surprised at what had fallen from
the Hon. Mewls r fur 'Aliddlesx. Such a measure ought
to be adopted by Purliamer.t. for how else would those who
• came to this country from Ireland be protested from such
accidents ?
• Me O'CONNELL said that the vessels carrying pas-
sengers from Dublin were well known to be safe.
Mr. HODGES supported the propriety of introducing
some legislative enactment upon the subject.
. Mt. GRATTAN said that he could, on competent au-
• thority, assert that the Rothsay Castle had been for several
years condemned, and was known to her owners not to be
seaworthy at the time.
Mr. Alderman VENABLES expressed a hope that some
sa idactoey measure would be brought forward, to insure the
safety of passengers by steam vessels.
Mr. W. W YNN thought that there ought to be an in-
, spection of every steam vessel carrying passengers, no matter
to what port they sailed, before she was allowed to put out
to sea. Passengers could not tell whether a packet was over-
loaded or not, and therefore some means of protection ought
to be provided for their security.
Mr. CAMPBELL protested against legislating upon
such a subject ; for he agreed with the hon. member for
Middlesex, that people ought to take care of themselves.—
The law subjected a party putting to sea In an unsafe vessel
to manslaughter, and if one delinquent were punished in that
, way, few similar occurrences would happen.
Mr. WARBURTON agreed in opinion with the hon.
member for Montgomery.
Mr. ROBINSON thought that, as a Committee war sit.
• ling on the subject, the house ought to wait for the report of
that Committee before they proceeded to bring forward any
! measure. He would not lend himself to any project which
might impede steam navigation.
After a few words front a noble lord and CoL Sibthorp,
the petition was ordered to be referred to the committee.

TIIC DOCHICSS Or LIYT AND ?NINNIES' ♦ICTOLIA.
Mr. HUNT said that much had been said in the public
papers about the absence of the Duchess of Kent and the
Princess Victoria from the Coronation. (Cries of Chair,
chair ! Order, order !)
The SPEAKER observed that the hon. member was not
putting a proper lues,ion.
Mr. HUNT said, all I want to know is--.ls it true, or is
it not ? (Cries of Order, order ! Chair, chair !)
The SPEAKER said that the hon. gentleman was out
of order. He was putting a question that would lead to a
debate.

Mr. HUNT—Then I don't know what question to put.
(Great laughter.) He recollected a similar question put by
an honourable baronet.
The SPEAKER observed, that the hon. member must
have in his recollection what had passed on that occasion.
Mr. HUNT then said that he would state a fact, and then
put his question. The hon. member then alluded to the
reports which had been published respecting the cause of
the absence of the Duchess of Kent and the Princess Vic-
toria from the Coronation, and asked whether these reports
were true ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that
be had no hesitation to answer the question put to him. The
circumstance of the Duchess of Kent and the Princess Vic-
toria's absence from the coronation had been much misre-
presented. The Duchess of Kent had assigned to his Ma.
jesty satisfactory reasons for excusing her absence and that
of the Princess, on the occasion referred to, but delicacy pre-
vented him from then saying more than that the reports
which had appeared in the oesspapers were unfounded.
Mr. CHOKER thought the question a very proper one,
and one that ought, in justice to the illustrious personage to
whom it related, to be put. (Cries of order.)
Here the conversation dropped.
111E/0114 BILL.
The order of the day for proceeding with the reform in
parliament bill was then read.
Mr. STRUTT said that, howeva reformers might differ
about the details of the measure, it undoubtedly embraced
much that was good. The time had gone by when they
could hope to delude the people by the empty name of re-
presentation, and it was therefore indispensable that some
great practical change should be effected.—(Hear, hear.)—
The honourable gentleman pointed out the just influence
which talent ought to possess, and said that it was not to
control the votes of others, but to protect the loda
pendence of those votes.—(Hear, hear.) One of the most
anxious duties of the legislature was to provide for the
political education of the people, but hitherto that object
had been neglected, and knowledge was taxed by the Im-
position of stamp duties upon newspapers. The ignorance
of the people had been greatly exaggerated, but he thought
that giving them a share in the repetsenta►ton would
speedily expel any ignorance that might exist by the intro
duction of good and salutary measures. Hs felt that power
was derived from the people, and that if this Bill were
passed, it would be received with gratitude, and used with
discretion.--(Hear, hear.)
Mr. B. WALL had been surprised to find that no
argument had been offered in favour of the Bill per se,
for whenever the Bill was talked about, they were called
upon to vote for it, because there was no other measure
before the House. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had
found it not only necessary to make a new constitution,
but to give new feelings to those who were to live under
that constitution. One of the operations of the Bill would
be the abolition of the law of pr iture, and such
was its extent, that all aoderate reformers had been
driven into giving their support to the conservative
party. (Hear, hear.) The opposers of the Bill had been
held up to public odium ; but he would ask, whether there
were not gentlemen who had an interest in carrying
the measure? (Hear.) There was an obvious union
between those who opposed the Catholic Relief Bill,
and those who objected to the present mitigate, and to
show this, he had only to refer to the north of Ireland,
which had sent Members to that House to vote against
it. The Honourable Member for Tavistock had attempted
to justify the anomalies of the bill, and he held up the 101
householders by way of illustration. He (Mt. Well) how.
ever, had always contended that there was a great difference
between the 101. householders of Yorkshire, or of Cornwall,
and those of London, for the 101. householdersof the former
places would feel astonished if they were to see the 101.
householders of the enfranchisement alleys of Billingsgate
or of Wapping. The hon. gent. adverted to the number of
persons not connected with noble or aristocratic
who had arrived at wealth and station, and obtained seats in
that house under the present state of things, and asked
whether the people ought not to have been satisfied with
this demonstration of their power. The hon. gent. then al-
luded to the public writers who were favourale to the Bill.
The editor of the Thew was one of the best writers in fa-
vour of the Bill ; but no eminent historian or other writer
had supported it, and it was his opinion that from the pass-
ing of the Bill, might be dated the downfall of the British
constitution. (Heat.)
Mr. VILLIERS objected to the preamble of the bill, be-
cause It set forth that those who sat in that house bad not
been sleeted according to law. If they allowed this to pass
unnoticed, how could they hereafter say that this Act was
iaviola•e. He objected also to the Inflammatory appeals
which bad been made to the people, and the Interference of

! the military; but he hoped that his objections to the pream.
ble wculd not affect any of the operative classes: (hear,
hear, from the Opposition benches.) There was however
one clause of which be could not approve, and that wai the
clause which related to the division of counties, and which
be conceived to be most pernicious in its effects: (hear,
Aar.) The county members would be stigmatised in fu-
ton as the representatives of individuals ; it was they who
would be spoken of as nominees. He should be sorry to see
this measure pass into law ; but fortunately there was
another branch of the Legislature, (loud cheers from the
Opposition ;) and be would never give his assent to a
measure that would be likely to infringe upon the rights
of that branch. (Cheers.)
31r. LABOUCH ERR thought that, from the state of the
country, his Majesty's Government did right to adopt a
prudent boldness, and'give to the people of this country so
Important a plan of Reform. In this plan he saw three great
principles, namely, doing away with close boroughs, giving
the franchise to large towns. and throwing open the corporate
towns. ft was possible that this country, like other coup-
tries, would have to fight the battle of democratic power;
but this he knew, that if they had, they never could have
done it upon the present ground. As he was a lover of the
true balance of power, he was ever ready to shed his blood
to perpetuate it. But he thought that the surest way to en-
able this country to stand against any revolutionary attack,'
was by this bill pasting into a law.
Mr. PANE contended that this bill was a triumph over',
real liberty, for it interfered with tbc corporations of the
country, and the house should recollect that an interference'
with corporate rights caused the exclusion of the House of
Stuart from the throne of this kingdom.
CuL MABERLY said that the objections redact against
the bill by the hon. member for Cockermouth (Sir J. Scar.
kit) were in his mind exceedingly frivolous. He contended
that this hill, instead of leading to revolution, would be
found to work practiellly in favour of the aristocracy,
(Hear, hear, from Mr. !lune) which was owing particularly
to the clause which gave to tenants.at.will the right of
voting for a member for a county. Indeed, the bill was
more aristocratical than even the present constitution. (Hear,
bear, from Sir R. Peel.) He understood the cheer of the
right hon. ban. and would answer it at a proper time. Ile
denied that this bill would lead to a further demand for Re.
form; on the contrary, lie declared it to be his opinion that
the bill would be final. The people did not want symme-
try in this ileine ; all they wanted was that the sale of
seats should be done away with, and that they should be
fairly represented in that House. Give them these things
and they will be content. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. A. TREVOR objected to the bill generally, and to
the means taken by a licentious press to force it along. He
looked to a revolution to follow the passing of this bill, and
consequently, to the certainty of the downfall of the institu.
stuns of this country.
Mt. L. WELLESLEY contended that this bill was no
innovation upon the constitution of the countq. It was
generally admitted both by those who opposed, as well u
those who supported the bill, that public opinion ought to
give a direction to public affairs. The question was as to
the extent of that public opinioa. Now, he contended
that public opinion, as shown through the medium of the
late elections, was decidedly in favour of the supporters of
the bill. He asked of the right honourable member for
Harwich, if he did not think that the electors of Essex
voted in favour of the reform candidate from their own
conviction in favour of reform, and not from any dicta-
tion or influence that bad been exercised with respect to
them. There were some parts of the bill which he wished
did not belong to it. He alluded to those pans which gave
in his mind an additional power to the aristocracy, which
they did not want. He contended that the broader the basis
of the democracy, the surer was the power of the aristocracy.
I He thought that the division of the counties would give too
much power to the aristocracy ; but it was his belief, that
it would be impossible to equally divide the counties ; for
instance, it would be quite impossible to divide Wiltshire.
He also thought that the duties thrown upon the overseers,
were duties which they ought not to be entrusted with. Af.
ter aome further remarks, he concluded by saying that be
supported this Bill, because he believed it would not inter-
fere with any of the just rights of the aristocracy.
Mr. Co URTEN A Y said that not one half of those whom
it was declared by his Majaty's ministers ought to be en.
trusted with the elective franchise would be so entrusted.
The members that would be returned under this bill would
be obliged, even in opposition to their wishes, perhaps to
vote against the Government, if the Government happened
not to be approved of by the people. He asked if the
ministry would be able to carry on more wise measures
hereafter than had been formerly carried through that house.
Will the Government relieve the country from the national
debt? He -would here observe that be could not but a.
press his astonishment at the way in which the speech of an
honourable gentleman had been cheered by the mem-
bers of his Majesy'a Government, (bear, hear,) tbe ob-
ject of which speech was to bring the power of the people
to operateagainst the Nettles/ Debt. His objection to the
Bill was, it would give too much of popular power in that
House. Ile did not believe any practical good would result
from this Bill. The only evil, If evil it could be called,
which It would put an end to, was the principle of direct
nomination. The opposers of this Bill did not deny that
there would be danger in opposing this Bill, but they
thought that much greater danger would result to the coun-
try hem the passing of the Bill. The people were beginning
to show an impatience respecting one of the branches of the
Legislature, an Impatience which was fostered by his Ma-
jesty's Government. (Hear.) He would oppose this Bill,
because he was content with the conadtution as it was, and
because he did not think there would be any improve meet in
the constitution by this Bill passing into a law. If any
movement was the result of this opposition, he freely owned
he would rather see It now than wait for its certainty of
coming hereafter. (Hear.)
Mr. MACAULAY said that, although this bill of
Reform had been changed in some parts tor the better, in
some parts for the worse, it was yet the same bill which
had received the assent of the people at the late election.
(Hear.) Believing that this bill would be the parent of
other good laws, he would upon this last and solemn
occasion give it his most earnest support. This law would
notgive bread to the people ; it was never intended to do so;
the object of this law, as of all laws, was not to give the
people wealth, but to enable them to protect that wealth
which their industry had accumulated. (Cheers.) Hs be-
lieved that had tills law been in operation fur the last lb
years, this country would be in a very different situation ,
limn what it now was. (Hear.) The opposition to this bill
rested upon mere supposition. For instance, it was stated
that under this bill, such would be the effect of popular
power, only persons would be returned that had a local in.
fluency in the place which they repreaented. This he denied;
and he pointed, in support of his denial, to Nottingham,
which, being a populous place, returned an advocate and a
soldier, unconnected with that town. He pointed to West-
minster and Southwark, both which places had frequently '
returned peons perfectly unconnected with them ; for in.
stance, Westminster had returned Mr. Tierney, Mr. Sheri-
dan, and Sir Samuel Hominy ; and no one could my that
this latter gentleman was a hustings-loving individual. In-
deed, if that great man had one blot upon his character, it
was his dislike of popular ekblbitions. He (Mr. Macaulay)
denied that any ro-action had taken place, or that the
feeling upon the subject was merely transitory and fleeting,
as the honourable gentleman had described it to be.
During the lest 70 years, the cause of reform had occupied
a sessiderable space in the public mind, and although
events lad mourn! to divert attention from it, yet the
ntls wholly lost sight of it. The question of Re-
mem was pined by the Catholic 'leaden, and the senti-
ment in its favour had since rapidly gained ground. The
cause of reform had at length shown that strength which
It bad acquired in secret, and be would as soon expect a
reaction, as he would look to a repetition of the burning of
heretics and witches.—(Hear, hear.) It was their duty to
support the privileges of the other House of Parliament ;
but then they were not to neglect those of the House of
Commons. the House of Commons was to protect their
beloved Sovereign and the country from danger, and what-
ever might be die prejudices elsewhere, he hoped that that
House would have wisdom enough to avert the consequences
of those Prejudices.--(Long continued cheering.)
Mr. CHOKER was not surprised at the immense cheer.
ing which bad followed the bon. gene's speech. He was
glad to find that the hon. gent. had received the reward of
his high services, an office In his Majesty's Government.—
The hon. gent. might, however, have spared his admonition
to that House, have avoided schooling the Hams of
carried withlirt letaveorwbordrettatioiet the
16"Thegenhoor....sgPrt.hhadwal'omit
only addressed that house, bat be had also addressed soothes
He had drawn his argumeoa from the French mu-
ration and the empty halls of St. Germain's but be seemed to
have forgotten that those empty hells would re-echo a
refutation to the arguments be had used. (Hear.)
He should have borne in mind that France, like this coun.
ivy, bad an ancient constitution, and that the French Le-
tialattue had met to consult concerning the law by which,

they were then assembled. The Right Hon. Gentleman ex.
planed the means adopted prier to the French revolution to
abolish the peerage of that country, sad to destroy sensorial
rights and tithes. He then obserfed that those transactions
furnished the most incontrovertible evidence of the danger
which was likely to result from the Reform Bill. He depre-
cated any interference with the privileges of the House of
Lords, and trusted that the Peers of England would judge
and act for themselves, and would, if they agreed with him as
to the tendency of the sseesure, unhesitatingly reject it :
(cheers.) It had been said that the majority of the people of
this country were in favour of the Bill, but he denied this :
(hear.) There certainly was a majority in its favour in that
House, but he repeated, that he did not believe this majo-
rity to exist out of doors: (hear, hear.) The Right Hon.
gentleman at some length pointed out the partiality which
had been shown to some boroughs and counties over others,
having equal, if not greater claims, in point of extent of po-
pulation and wealth, and went on to show that the repro.
sentation of those places with which the friends of the bill
were connected, was increased, while that of other places
having no such connexion was diminished. This was said
to be a bill for extending the elective franchise. The
boroughs in schedule B. polled 11,000 voters, but by the
return on the table, the constituency of these boroughs
would be reduced to four thousand. The whole number
of the electors polled by all the boroughs amounted
to between 104,000 and 105,000, but by this bill a re-
duction to 80,000 would be effected, so that it might be
said that the constituency of all the boroughs would be
diminished at least one-fifth. If, after this, the people con-
tinued their favour to the bill, he should say that they bad
lost their common senses. (Betz, hear.) He would make
other observations upon the absurdities of the bill, but they
were too numerous for comment. These absurdities were,
however, so &grant, that they must be obvious to the peo-
ple of England : but he feared that the people of England—
he feared—and he did so in charity.—that his Majesty's itli-
nistera did not understand the bill, or they would not think
of it otherwise than as he did. The right bon. gentleman
adverted to the period for polling, and contended that net.
they time nor expense would be saved by the arrangement.
It was rather singular that those members of Parliament
who were appointed Commissioners under this bill had
distinguished themselves in the share which they took in
protroting the views of ministers in this bill. Would the
house believe that one of the unsuccessful reform candidates
at Grimsby was a member of the commission, as was also
Isis agent at that election. But if the unsuccessful candi-
date, Mr. Talent, was chosen on account of his auspicious
name (laughter), there was another gentleman also chosen
on account of his auspicious name, he meant the Rev. Mr.
Sheepshanks (loud laughter). Of course no person could
find fault with the appointment of a, person who a few days
ago had been made Master in Chancery by the Lord
Chancellor (Mr. Martin)—(laughter). The last Commis-
sioner whom he should mention was a clerk of the House
of Lords. What 1 a clerk of another house to be ap-
pointed to a tribunal in the first instance for deciding who
should be the electors of member of this house—(hear,
bear.) The opponents of the bill had done their duty,
and it bad its effect throughout the country. He had no
doubt but that the Lords would do what they conceived
to be their duty. If he were convinced that the House
of Lords would be influenced by intimidation in their de-
cision respecting this measure, he would be against that
house. (Hear, hear.) lie venerated the House of Loads.
He entertained the highest sense of their integrity and
honour, and to then: he would say, " Now, or DOM r "
(Cheers.) He would ask what was the use of the House of
Lords ? Was it to register the proceedings of the House of
Commons, or were they to differ from the Commons only as
a Turnpike Bill. This question he deemed more important
than the question respecting the succession of the House of
Hanover, or the revolution. They were gone, but we are
going. He had such a reliance In the constitutional affection
of the gentlemen of the House of Commons for our institu-
tions, that if the bill were rejected by the Lords, they would
not attempt to force the other House to a contrary course. for
that would be a prelude to the destruction of our valuable
institutions. The Right Hon. Gentleman sat down amidst
loud cheers front the Opposition.
Mr. STANLEY said the right hon. gentleman confined
himself merely to amusing the house by harping on the
names of the Commissioners, which ought rather to be dis-
cussed in the Committee, and then in reading a lecture to
the Lords on the course they should pursue. Admitting
that out of 36,600 voters there was a majority of oalylB,lloo,
he saw nothing in this. The thing would have been diffe-
rent had the real same of the country been taken. (Hear.)
But it was a fact that could not be disputed, that out
of all the county members in that House there were
only six county members in that house who were pledged
against the bill. The right hon. gentleman glanced at the
conduct of the house of lords, and expressed a hope that the
bill would be sent back amended, as he called it. He ad-
verted to the conduct of the peers of France, and said thatit
was because they refused to accede to the calls of the people
until they were obliged, that their assent was disregarded.
He hoped that the Peas of this country would not
adopt a similar course. (Hear, hear.) Such conduct
would have a fearful effect. if the Peers of England
rejected the wishes of the people, they would produce an
hostility towards them which was incompatible with the
real feelings of the people of England, who respected the
aristocracy, because it was an aristocracy attached to, and
connected with the people. He hoped that before six
months that Bill would be the law of the land. But come
what may, the supporters of the Bill would have the Bads-
facdon of knowing that they had done every thing to for.
ward a measure which was anxiously wished for by a grate-
ful people.
Coo SIBTHORP moved that the debate be adjourned
to this day.—Agreed to.
The other orders of the day were disposed of, and the
House Adjourned at Haltpast One .'Clock.
STAR OFFICE,