Star.
London, England, 1822-02-23 00:00:00

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end be maintained that the 111.84 would not do k
received the aecounts in the gram The Hon. Gentile.* talked
of stars and gabaies ; but he tent an Irish way of organs the
question. by first admitting that the principle of sinecuresvrae bad.
As to what the Hoc. Gentleman said about a bond of union, ft
was absurd to suppose that between * Officer sitting semMy at
the Admiralty Board and the Navy there could be anythingllite
a bond of union. As to confidence, that House ought never to
give away the public money, without knowing for what purpose
the money was to be applied. lie therefore must move as
' Amendment, that a return be made in the prices of the provi-
sions used in victualling the Navy, from the years 1813 to 1821
inclusive.---Mr. CROKER explained.
Colonel DAVIS rose to ask if the lion. Member meant to
give any return whatever to the application of his Hon. Friend?
Sir. CROKER said he had already explained his view of the
subject; and he was sure the House would not permit him to
speak spin.
The House then divided on this motion :—The numbers en
the division were—For the Amendment, 54—Against it, 158.-
3lajotity against it, 104.
Ott the re-admission of strangers, Sir J. OSBORN was pro-
. posing, that there be granted for the service of the Navy this
tear, 21,000 men, including 10,000 Marines.
Mr. HUM F. desired to know what there was in the present
circumstances of the country requiring 2000 men more now than
in 1817? Ile entreated the House not to pass the Resolution
without further inquiry. He proposed to leave out the words
0 twenty-one thousand,' and substitute nineteen thoneand.
Sir G. COCKBURN stated, that in the beginning of a former
war the country had suffered materially from the want of a suf-
bean number of Marines to commence manning the feet. A
. number of soldiers were taken on board in their stead : they
were very much discontented, and when they left the port be-
came very sea-sick. It was therefore proposed last year, and
Parliament had approved the proposition, that 2000 Slarines
should be added to the Naval Establishment.
Sir I. COFFIN adverted to the necessity of keeping up a cer-
tain number cf Officers ready at all times to go to sea. Men
who like him had been fifty years in the service, might not be
competent to the duty.
Mr. It. G. BENNET said, that when it suited the purpose
of Ministers, they held out the expectation that the peace was to
last fur ever ; but when fault was found with the extravagant
expenditure, the exclamation immediately was, " Wbo knows
but we may soon have a war?" He should like tole informed
why 8000 Marines were now to be kept up? Was a war now
more probable than in 1817? The truth was, that in 1822, the
peace establishment was larger than in 1817, while the country
was labouring under increased distress. The difference was at
least l'rs'oo,ooo ill the naval departments; yet from 1817 down-
wards the same empty promises of economy had been given, and
the same constant neglect of them shewn. There was the same
pledge of economy, and the sante practice of profusion. Why
did tot the Country Gentlemen, when so many opportunities
were afforded, dt,charge the engagements they bad made to their
constituents, instead of trusting to the chance of a long Parlia-
ment, and the amiable forgetfulness of their friends—(Bear).—
He wished that the people of England could really look into
the Home of Commons—(Much cheering); nothing under
Heaven could give him greater satisfaction, for it would save
posterity from the innumerable calamities threatened by Mi-
nisters. If the eye of the Public were steadily kept upon their
Representatives, there might be at least a chance of a remedy.
The people of England did sometimes learn who voted on the
Opposition side of the House; would to God they could see
the votes on the side of Ministers ! That God-send, a list of a
Ministerial majority, would bring the nation to its senses, and
ought to be posted through the kingdom—(llear, hear, from
all sides.) It would then be seen why, in 1822, a larger sum was
to be voted than in 1817. Ile still had some faint hope that
Gentlemen who had been be lavish of their promises out of door.
would give some specimens of the performance of them within
doors.
Sir GEORGE CLERK called the attention of the Commit-
tee to the remaining portion of the Estimates, from which It
would be seen that there was a reduction of nearly two mil-
lions—(Hear).—The Hon. Blember for Aberdeen seemed sur-
prised at this statement, but it was borne out by the fact.
Mr. HUME confessed that the statement about a saving of
2,000,000/. was quite a surprise upon him. He was very willing
to take it on the Word of the Honourable Baronet, if the Esti-
mates on the table did not shew the reverse. The Estimate
for 1817 was 1A85,4151.; at present the Estimates were 489,5501.
less; but how did this shear that there was a saving of 2,000,0001.?
The expenses of 1818 were 6,540,0001. • of 'lBl9, 6,527,0001.;
and of 1820, 6,691,0001.; and the saving apparent this year did
not arise from any spirit of economy =the part of Government,
but from the death of Bonaparte.
Dir. CROKER observed, that the Hon. Gentleman was mis-
taken in asserting that the Estimates of 1817 fell short of
8,000,000/. 'the mistake was very trifling in amount, being
only 671,000/.—(Hear). That sum was obtained by the sale of
old stores, and it was taken in aid of the vote of the year; so
that, in point of fact, though the vote from Parliament was only
as stated, yet the real expense was greater by 671,0001. The Hon.
Member might dispute this fact, if he vault. It could also be
found that, under the Appropriation Act, there was a vote of
1,660,0001. to make good the expenses of the naval establish-
ment, and to pay off the Navy Debt ; so that the whole of the
Supplies was not lees than 7,700,0001.
Mr. HUME pledged himself to the accuracy of his own state•
meat; and was equally certain that the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Croker) was wrung. He (Mr. Hume) contended that the
671,0001. ought to be deducted from the 5,98.5,0001. so that one
statement was as correct as the other. The annual finance ac-
counts, given under the authority of the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and laid upon the table on the sth of January, 1818,
spewed the same thing under the Bth head. It there appeared
that the Navy wages amounted to 2.524,0001. the victuals to
9,793,000/. and the ordnance to 1,155,000 f. making a total of
6,472,0001. being an excess not more than common of 500,0004
above the estimate. Perhaps the Honourable Secretary could
explain all this.
Mr. CHOKER said, that be would do so with the greatest
pleasure. The Ordinary Estimate for 1817 was 2,476,1151.
from which was to be deducted the sum of 671,000/. for old
stores. The Extraordinary Estimate was 1,691,0001. the Trans.
port F.,timate 261,0001. and the Wear and Tear Estimate
1,619,9001. fonFing a total of 6,492,0001.
Mr. HUME was willing to rest the issue on the papers upon
the table—(Hear).
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY adverted to the employ-
ment of the Marines is the Mediterranean and on the Coast of
Africa. Both there and in some of the ports they did the duty
of land soldiers, and thus enabled Ministers to make a larger
reduction of the regular military force of the country. This
could not have been dune without the 2,000 additional 3larines
voted last year.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN bore testimony to the great utility of
the Marines.—A division then took place—
For the Amendment...s3—Against it... 157
Strangers were also ordered to withdraw on the next resolu-
tion kr £593,579 for the Wages of 21,000 Seamen and Marines;
but no division took place, as the resolution was carried.
On re-admission of strangers to the gallery, Mr. Hems was
objecting to the vote for what was termed the Coast Blockade.
Ile complained that the House was quite in darkness upon the
subject, and objected to the system altogether.
The CHANCELLOR of tfie EXCHEQUER noticed the
re-transferring of £BO,OOO from the Customs to the Naval De-
partment, which apparently swelled the item.
Mr. HOBHOUSE saw very clearly that Ministers intended
to refuse every kind of information, everything that could enable
the House to investigate do subject. All propositions for inquiry
were met only by a direct negative, supported by the ordinary
'Ministerial majority ; and as this course had been pursued quite
long enough fur one night, be moved that the Chairman report
progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Lard ALTHORPE put a question regarding the different
charge per man for victuals at present, and in 1817? 1
Sir O. COCK BURN said, that the charge fur victuals per
man now was .ti. 19s. per month.
Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that there had been a very
considerable fall in the price of provisions, and he wished dis-
ti• etly to know what difference that fall bad made in the monthly
charge for victuals per mars. 'Hie expense now, it appeared, was
Al. 19a,-Wl2Bt was it in 18-.71
Sir G. COCKBURN answered, that the charge for the years
ante and 1820 had bees IL Is. per man. It ought to be re-
collected, however, that sometimes It was necessary to buy pro-
visions abroad at a dear rate, and in the East India this year
there would be an additional nav force.
Mr. W. SMITH raid a few w as requiring further informs-
opallino as the subject of the pr resolution.
Mr. BE AL wished to home bowls would interfere with
the high destinies of Inland to give information on the prices of