Star.
London, England, 1823-03-05 00:00:00

-.JAL...4 _ t _ ~7 .. .
place in the lint ideate-of the Attoetter. Jaelleffloh-,4ohtiltekArnisisTitthieg'the prejodicial Milt-Mel in thit
firehut4 since .111 Wear; Itesh6tillt lefet6'l9l,4llllll6l.4l="lbeyiveteprOr sidiere in their,* . :to
lons ail:blk:lth% of Mbodrictrisiii thnie.ChOlithilleirfe theihterestWfOrtgbri. ThebtioiNt to is-•
*ly ind.Churelt mat ors were' , 'rand bed 'critibftli*Stoteh braidldetktlisie wris4.4 Erwto
Z)si
the pnWer or authority-of Parli • -.lle erNafested-i-A etinttiry ago, Seothill'irailts Band 'Si nowitTirere
he could not miderstand upon' Etch:lot opieltiiii *as Obthing inherent hit the Irish character toprevent
tould• be- foundeJ. •It certainly Could not be upon' Irishmen rising above their present condition, which,
any Of those act) of the Legislature which went to in- was worse than thet•of any-people in Europe except
terfere with Church property. ft bould not be upon the Turks. TheyWert degraded by those whoshotild
the Lind Tax Act, which •attthorised the Bishops to elevate them. He would propose that none. of the
sell Church land. If Parliament had entertained the Clergy should have en ificianie less than 1301. a year,
notions' of the Right Hon. Gentleman upon this sub-: nor above 6001. as in Scotland. He would read
ject, it would•never have passed
•dote Act. But to what Adam Smith said upon this subject. He eb-'
go from those minor facts to higher precedentsvhad 'served, " that to ensure the proper performance or
not. Parliament changed the religion-of the country every service, the pay ought to be exactly propor-r
itself? Had it not changed that religion from Catho- tioned to it. ' Thus, if the Clergy were underpaid,-
Heim to Protestantism, •and could it not change the they would be found to be individuals whose appear-
Protestant religion ?—(Hear, and laughter.)—He re- ance or eharaiter were perhaps mean, and beneath
peated that that House, and the other House of Per- I their situation. Again, if over paid, as it happened
liament, with the concurrence of his Alajesty(iterrr, that men of large revenue always thought that they
and laughter)—could change the religion. The Right ought to live like others of the same stamp, they
Hon. Secretary might laugh, but had he left out his would be found to spend their time in vanity, than
Majesty, what would he have said? Begides which, which nothing could be more liVely to draw aside a
his Majesty teas but one branch of the •Legislature. Clergyman from his high. duties, and in the eyes of
Let the House then :suppose that, instead of Pros,' common people to.destroy the becoming sanctity of
testaatism being the established religion, Qua- the clerital character"—(Cries of Hear, )rear).—Now
kerism eas established ih its room—(Lond laughter). the isiferior Clergy of Ireland were underpaid, and
He said, let them suftpose that a House of Quakers— the: evils foretold by Adam Smith followed. The
(Continued laughtert.l—'What would be the conse- 'same results appeared in the superior and overpaid
quence? The Quakers not permitting Deans and Clergy. Utility was the great object and end of his
Chapters, or any of the various et cetera of the Esta- arrangement. A's to the Clergy in the diocese
Wished Church, what became of the freeholds of the of Waterford and Lismore, eighteen were resident,
Clergy, when Those who administered spiritual corn- and thirty-two non-resident. The former Bishop of
fort to the flock were not allowed any wordly benefit ? Clogher, as he was told, went to his diocese without
He begged the Right Hon. Gentleman, if he made a shilling, and died worth three or four hundred
any remarks upon this subject, to tell them what he thousand pounds. He was also told, that at present
would do with the land belonging to the Clergy, if the land attached to that Bishoprick, if let out, would
that House became a House of Quakers? He would produce 150,0004 a year.' Why this was enough for
answer, no doubt, that it would be placed at the dis- ten German Princes; and he maintained it was in-
Zeof the State—and no doubt it would be so.— consistent with professions of economy that such
then what became of the principle which de- large sums of public mciney were thus disposed of.
'glared that Church property could not be touched? He wished that they shoold have:a Committee to in-
He did not wish to change the Religion—that might quire into chervil stateref the revenues of the higher
stand—lie only wished to. revise the arrangements Clergy of Ireland. TIM was requisite under every
upon which it rested. The late Bishop Watson pro- point of view. He should propose that the Irish
posed, in order to increase the incomes of the Clergy Establishment he reduced to one Archbishop and
to £lOO each, that all Deaneries, as they became va- four Bishops. That number, with a proportionate
cant, should not be filled up. Thus, then, it was the number of subordinate officers, would be quite suffi-
opinion of the Clergy themselves, that the change he cient. Then, as the Deans and Chapters bad little to
was arguing for could be effected by the Legislature. do, the whole of them ought to die off!—(Laughter).
Arid that it could do so, was shewn by upwards He meant, that his Majesty should be requested not
of twenty-five Acts on the Statute Book, providing to fill up the vacancies as they occurred. Then as
against the Clergy robbing each other, by disposing to the nomination, it appeared that the Crown had
of land the property of the Church. He put it, then, the nomination of the whole, for it could put a rio--
to the good sense of the country, whether the inten- gative upon the nomination of the Bishops. Thit;he
tions of the founders were carried into effect by the contended, was too great. He now came to tivii part
present Church Establishment in Ireland? . What of the question which related to the tithes. He should
was the situation of that Church ? According to the abuse the indulgence of the House were he to at-
last Census, the population of Ireland was 6,800,000, tempt to represent adequately to them the abuses or
one fourteenth' of which number, 490,000 persons, this part of the system. He proposed, therefore, then
•constituted the total amount of the followers of the as the revenues of the Bishops and Deans and Chirp;
'Established Church, leaving 5,900,000 Catholics.— tens should go to form a fund at the disposal of Pat--
Theft; for the Establishment itself—there were four liament, so should there be a commutation of tithe".
Archbishops,- eighteen Bishops, and thirty-three at fifteen years • imtead Ortasehty:tive, as bad been
'Deaneries, Making, with inferior Ministers, in all proposed; and the iontended•there 'would be ample
61'1 -belonging to the Chapters and Bishopricks. He. funds to make a liberal. commutation. - The same
believed no country in the world offered the example might be doneisaegarded the lay istipropriators. A
of such a iroportionhetween inhabitants and Clergy.' similar plan to thichidlieen carried info execution
The House, then,- he contended, was bound to eon- by Prince Leopold OrTlisciny; and why Should not
elder-whether the number was not too great ; and •if the same be done by 01HO:entry? The House ought
so, make a proper (eduction. This. was the way they not to listen-to any-petitions 'from these people talk.
'proceeded with the Army, and, upon the same grin-A ing about their sueceai they had nothing to do
ple, they-Ought. todecideospon not keeping up use- with their.succeisois. What would the House think
;less Bishops. •Helmew not if there were Cathedrals of the officers of a battalion coming to a resolution
'in Ireland, hiltit there were, they ought to be done not to be disbanded, because they wished to 'secure
away with of curtailed ; for any one •who knew any• their places to their successors ? But then' these
thing about the matter, would know that ohe Cler- Gentlemen said, 4' Would you pay us in money, that
gyntan, with a Curate, could do all the duties of a will tender us dependent, and lower our sacred cha-
Cathedral. The state of the country•would not admit ratter." He (Mr. Hume) smiled at their assurance ; ,
of their keeping up idlers at the present moment.— the most subservient, where• their own interest was
Public property oughtnot thos to be uselessly squan-' concerned, talking of independence!—(Hearl frees
dered ; and the Bishops and Deans should be told,. tie Ministerial Lunches).—The Honourable Members
that their services could be dispensed with. He cared, opposite might try " Hear, hear!' Many things
not for those who would be disposed to cavil with his were carried by assurance; and he (Mr. Hume) had
proposals ; he made them with the best intentions to- no doubt they- would have enough of the assur-
wards that unfortunate country. He hoped a Com- ance of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite.—
minee would be granted to him, to pronounce to the They had had it before, and no doubt they would
House upon his plan, which he might be too san- have it again that night. He understood, a certain
guine about. No one, he was sure, who. turned Archbishop had assembled his flock, for the purpose
his attention to the subject, but would say the Esta- of petitioning Parliament to the effect he had above
blishment was open to great reductions: and he stated; but he hoped they would not be listened to.
should say they did great injustice to those Naval, Why should they object to be paid in money? His
Military, and Civil Officers, who had of late years not that House changed the territorial possessions of
been reduced, it they did not cut down the overbur- the Crown into a money revenue? Besides, it would
dened institutions of the Church. As to the amount be an injustice to the officers of the Army and Navy,
of Church property, as regarded other property in to decline treating the Clergy as they-treated them,
Ireland, he believed he could give the House ar, ac- on the score of degradation. It was-his wish..to
curate idea of it. There were, he believed about four- make good Christians of the Irish Clergy ;la abolith
teen millions of Irish, or eighteen millions of English luxury and extravagance, and teach them to inotate
acres in the whole surface of Ireland. Now he had the example of the Founder of their • Faith. He
reason to believe he was correct in stating the property moved, therefore-. .
in the hands of the Bishops and Deans and Chapters at is Ist, That the property at present in the hinds of the Deans
two-elevenths of the whole, cultivated and wild.—' and Chapters ofTreland, is public property, and under the con-
And here he was sorry to have to observe that the trout sodas pool of-tbelAniShrare.ler the supprateritelloiso,
Bishops in Ireland were not the best cultivators of or for
_such•Oer_ purposes farliameo4 may. *Nov- v 6011147
land, for when he was there, every piece of badly ;;;Ir - u'ru'v Paw t° the inl*rest" tb"liat^l'eart
cultivated land he saw was called Bishop'
s' land. ' osa . i ftis- desiniMe that this House should * in:
Thus the country lost both. Then the rental of Ire- quire to be lanitutud Into the present state at the X
land he had estimated at 14,800,0001. Two-elevenths ch*rvh in Ireivad- •
of this they might take at 2,500,0001. There were 0 z'That the best Interests of Ireland would be promoted by
diminishing the large "liefeAueiof the higher Clergy, and raking
1289 tithe collectors, which taken at 5001. each, than ot tbe lower arid- by- enrolee a Comilueation of Tithes.
made 700,0001.. making a total of 3,200,0001. which * 4th. That a 'Select Cansinhtee be appointed to consider in
.the Church of Ireland swallowed up annually.. Sup- what-manner *loci:objects can be best carded:into effect."
-posing this estimate to be right by one-half,heasked = These Resolutions having been seconded,•and ~
the House whether it ought to be tolerated? He fiirst put from the Chair,
begged to say, that in any change propoied.by bhp Mr. GOIR.BURN rose, It Was scarcely necessary
he wished to observe what was duitct tiestnd into- .for him, he said, to inform the Boolse that he rose to
'rests, and in no case to injure or interfete tvithindi-- give themotion.of the Honflwable Member a decided,
viduals now in possession. It would be less td-be re-._ negative--(Hear,rizar)..ltmas not the :first time that
g:if these three millions were employed; at the• similar doctrines had beet~ broached: both by.the Ho-
clad directed, in forming the EstablishMent, if noorable•Metnber ariliothert ;- and now, as, he had
it were even fairly divided -knot% the labourer) in then been, and ever should- be• NbrueTor:aoch ProPci-
the vineyard; but when the House salt a mut-rite- sitioos were made and wrged,,eithet laythe weight of
halve to the Citrates, and the portion of it allotted eloquence,_ ortbe length of detailits.whicb the Hen.
to them, they, would see it was far othetwise. He Member *Wended, •he - should,' be prepared to re-
believed it was a very rare occurrence for a Curate fute -them. If • there were -. any diffkulty in ,the
.question, it- was not forthe ;slant of .argumest, but
to be promoted, whilst there were some Bishops with
revenues. of 10,6061.. a year.. It was 'impossible not -from the difficulty of repressing that indignation
thus to blank a'aystem *hitt placed the interests -which it was impossible not to feel--4(Chrers froin
- .. & duties of officers in opposition to each other.. both -sides).—.The attempt now made was to over-
'The coils of nowresidence were monstrOus,whilst those throw the foundations of property,-and those esta.
left to officiate for the absentees received a mere pit- "blishments to which the. country was attached, not
ranee. By a return• made in 1819, it appeared that, only by habit, but from _practical experieoce of their
hi a number of 1286, only 736 were resident, leaving benefit. He contended that every principle thaewas
331 non=residents. His Majesty's MitliStort had tal. ked held sacred by• Parliament *as involved in the pro-
a great deal about teligica-t—it would ttOW,he steer position of the Hon. Member. his speech of the