Star.
London, England, 1822-02-26 00:00:00

advise a prisoner' ti perjure littntelf, or vmedd aid
him in his escape. He contended that the jailer was
justified in using a discretion as to the opening of
letters, even before the making of regulations sanc-
tioned by the Judges and Magistrates. In ensue-
quence of its manufactures the County of Lancaster
had doubled and nearly trebled its population in the
course of a few years ; and it then beiame'neeessary,
from the number and offences of the prisoners, to
apply to the Judges on the Maize to sanction some
new rules and regulations.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the ques-
tion they had to decide on involved a matter of law
and a matter of privilege. As to the first, no deci-
sion of theirs could bar the party aggrieved from his
remedy in any of the Courts. But the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman (Brougham) must forgive
him, if he thought that the regulations of this prison
were so far sanctioned by law, that the privilege of
Parliament was not to ride-over them. Their mode
of dealing with this question did not require them to
look so narrowly or jealously to their privilege as if it
were attacked. All the jailers in the country could not
know the hand-writing of all the Members, though
the Post Office did. How was a jailer to know a
Member's name on the back of a letter? It had been
said, that it was necessary for the liberties of the-peo-
ple ; but he did not know that it was necessary for
Members of Parliament to correspond with prisoners,
under pretence of learning the grievances of their
constituents. He did not think that they were, in
their quality of Members of Parliament, to become
constant visitors of jails; or that they should corre-
spond with prisoners, whether confined for felony, or
high treason, or sedition. Again, he said, if there
had been any offence, it might be referred to the
competent Tribunals. _ _

m.r. DENMAN wished to know bow that was to
be done; for it was not a question of law but of pri-
v.:ege. The Noble Marquis had said that the car-
re,pondence should not be secret if there was any
substantial grievance. Now that was the very rea-
son why it should be secret, as was shewn by the dif-
ficulty of:getting any inquiry into the conduct of the
jailer of that most horrible %stile, rlchester Jail. If
a )4:ler be complained of, and could open the letters
c: prisoners, he might pot them in the fire, and treat
his unfortunate victim with still greater severity.
No grievance could be redressed if this privilege were
taken away, and it was therefore their duty to stand
up for it most zealously. The late Sir S. Romilly
had, in a case of this very kind, declared that the
privilege of Parliament was not to be got rid of by
a side wind in any Act of Parliament. If the letters
of Mr. Hunt to. hi, Honourable and worthy Friend
bad been intercepted, famine and torture would have
been introduced into Ilchester Jail. It had been said
that the jailer could not know the signature of Mem-
bers; but the Post Office had given its sanction to its
authenticity before it came into the hands of the
jailer, and he had no right to open the letter. Pri-
vilege was excellent when it enabled Ministers to im-
prison their political opponents—(Near, hear).—But
he hoped that the House would chew that the value
of privilege was to protect, not to take away, the
liberties of the People.
Mr. B. B ATHURST said, the Learned Gentleman
wished the House to believe that Ministers had a pri-
vate end to answer in opposing this motion. This he'
denied, and thought the safest way would be to come
to no decision upon the subject; because it would be
leaving the matter of privilege untouched, and the
law open if any one had been aggrieved or illegally
treated in this transaction. The two cases that had
been quoted applied only to the Post Office. He
denied that the rules of the gaol of Lancaster pre-
vented a prisoner from seeing his friends at proper
hours, or under proper circumstances, or from con-
sulting his attorney, or any other legal adviser. The
.gaoler was not to have known that this letter was ad-
dressed to any Member of Parliament.
Mr. JAMES shortly replied. His view of the
question was not at all altered, and he believed, on
the authority of Sir Samuel Romilly, that the prac-
tice complained of was illegal. The Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Wynn) had argued that poison
might be conveyed to a prisoner in a letter. This was
very true ; so might a prisoner knock his head against
the prison wall if he were determined to kill himself.
If the House neglected the present motion, he thought
it would be guilty of a violation of the law, and
would in effect establish two legislatures; one con-
sisting of King, Lords, and Commons, and the other
of Judges and Magistrates.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the
Nonce divided, when there appeared—

_ ..
For the original motion - - - 60
For the previous question - - - 167
.111ajority - - - . .-107
THE FIVE PER CENTS.

On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, the
House was is a Committee, pursuant to the notice of
the CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER on Friday.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
the Resolution he was about to submit was connected
with a transaction of the highest. importance to the
financial interests of the country, while it proved the
solidity of our public credit, and our steady adherence
to the principles of national faith. It was analogous
to the proposition of Mr. Pelham in the year 1749,
to: reducing the interest of the 4 per Cents. to 3 per
Cent. per annum. Some time previous to that pro-
position, Sir J. Barnard had submitted to the House
a plan for raising money at a low rate of interest,
and applying it in part to a reduction of the public
debt ; but the plan was not entertained by the Hous.?..
But in 1749, Mr. Pelham, then Chancellor of the
Exchequer, had proposed ;he measure, the effcct of
which was to lower the interest from four to—three
per cent. The sum affected by that purpose was 67
millions, a sum considered at that time so large, that
doubts were seriously entertained of the practicability
of the proposal. Mr. Pelham, however, persisted,.
and the Parliament sanctioned his measure. After
the expiration of the first year, the holders of the
Stock were to receive three and a half per cent. for
ten years, and three per cent. afterwards. The plan
met with considerable opposition from large Compa-
nies and individuals interested in the Fund; and it
was somewhat increased by the political opposition
to the government, which was then very strong. The
latter piece of conduct would, he trusted, meet an ho-
now able contrast in that of the Members opposite.
He had stated that Mr. Pelham 's plan was adopted
by Parliament. At about that time a pamphlet was,
published by Sir John Bartntrsl on the subject, which,

hnd'+eiTteh- adt`addilinieti sans a `second s'
proposed' lossafaveurable to the Wars' 6f.
than the 4rst. aide. ;Pelham, however; recommended
to Parliserent tp adhere to its first proposal, and
accordilig. it had'done so—( Hear, hear, hear).—
The.plarb tiniately sucteeded to such an extent that
the ambit* of theium required to pay off thi'persons
who dissented from the proposal, was less than throe
millions. Having slightly noticed the plan suggested'
by Mr. Pelham, he came to the particular measure ;
which he was about to bring under the notice of the
House. Every one knew how much some operation
of this kind had been lOoked for as the dawning of
public prosperity. The measure be had to propose
would prove to be a relief to the country of £1,150,000,
and including the Irish Stock, of the description he
was about to mention, of 1:1,2?0,000. There were
several sorts of Stock composing our Funds. The
first was called tbe Navy Five per Cents. and was
formed originally of Navy Bills issued during the
American war. It had been increased by Exche-
quer Bills and other Government securities, to the
amount of one hundred and forty-one millions. The
Irish Stock of the same description, guaranteed by
English security, amounted to fourteen millions, and
it might be proper to include this in the same terms
as those about to be proposed with reference to the
English Stock. There was another Five per Cent.
Stock, called the Loyalty Fund. This was raised in
1797, and was subject to particular circumstances of
redemption. The holders were entitled to call for pay-
ment in two years after a peace ; they had done so two
years after the peace of Amiens, and they were paid
principally in Stock of the present Navy .5 per Cents.
This latter Stock could not be paid off under the pre-
sent proposed arrangement; it being agreed that they
should not be paid off until three years after the pay-
ment of tbe Navy Five per Cents. The sum he pro-
posed to pay off was 143 millions ; and he suggested
that this should be done in the Four per Cent. Stock,
the interest of which to be payable, as usual, in July and
January, and the proprietor of each £lOO Navy Five
per Cent. Stock was to be entitled to £lO5 in the
Four per Cent. or the new Stock. The arrangement
to take place from July next. The holders of the
Stock would thus be entitled to an addition of Five
per Cent. upon their capital, and yet the country
would derive immediate relief to the amount of
£1,140,000. He should here observe, that all which
Parliament could force upon the holders of this
Stock, was the taking of ready money at par. The
taking of the new Stock would be a voluntary act
upon their part ; and, from the approbation which
the Public had already given to the proposal, he had
reason to believe that very few niould dissent from it.
And he thought it consistent with every principle of
public faith, as it certainly was with public conve-
nience, to consider those as assenting who did net,
in a fair and reasonable time, express their dissent.l
There were some distinctions between the plans of '
Mr. Pelham and himself, although they were, in
point of justice, the same. They were the same as
regarded the inviolability of the public faith, and
only differed in arrangement. Instead of three months,
as proposed by Mr. Pelham, to allow the parties to
give their option to his terms, he desired to substi-
tute a shorter period. So long a period as three months
was unnecessary and useless, and from the suspense it
was calculated to produce,was likely to be very preju-
dicial in a great and important transaction like this.
Such a length of time was equally prejudicial to the
parties and to the Public ; to the latter, as retarding
the relief contemplated by the arrangement, and to
the former by laying individuals open to the effect of
jobbing, and other money-market transactions, which
sometimes disgraced this country. The time hepro.
posed to allow for dissent was, for Great Britain and
Ireland, to the 16th of March ; for persons not in this
country, but not out of Europe, he should propose
to allow three months further ; and to those who
might be beyond the limits of Europe, 12 months.—
Within these periods he thought all cases would be
included. With respect to the calculation of the terms
offered to the Stockholder, it was, to a certain degree,
matter of speculation, but he was bound in justice to
say, that the general expression with regard to them
was, that they were perfectly fair to the Public and
to individuals. He intended that the Stock thus
created, should be unredeemable for seven years, viz.
not before the sth of January, 1829. Mr. Pelham
proposed that his Stock should not be redeemed for
ten years, but it was to remain at an interest of 3i per
cent. only after one year. As seven millions would
be added to the debt by the bonus, he was aware
that the advantage to the Public in this transaction
should be great, and so he conceived it was—(Hear).
There were toe modes of accomplishing this object.—
One was to create a four and a half per cent. fund,
instead of a tour per cent. fund. But in the first
place, there was an objection to that, in the consider.
able length of time it would require to effect such a
transmutation, by which the intended benefit to the
nation would be postponed. Again, by such an ar-
rangement a reduction of interest to the amount only
of 4.700,000, instead of £3,150,000, would be effected.
It appeared, therefore, to him, that the plan which
offered an immediate relief, as a remission of the
Public Debt to a greater extent by £400,000, was the
preferable one. It was likewise an objection to the 4i
per Cent. Steck, that it must either be made unre-
deemable for many years, in which case the benefit of
a further reduction would be postponed, or its imme-
diate reduction always hanging over the head of the
holder, would tend greatly to obstruct its accomplish-
:neut. The Right non. Gentleman next adverted to
the proposes mode of taking the option of the stock-
holder by dissent, rather than by assent. As it was
' well known that the public expression was generally
favourable to the terms offered, the mode of dissent
possessed the superiority of being mote convenient to
the holders of 5 per Cent. Stock as a body ; for the
minority were called upon to express their determi-
nation rather than the majority—(hears—andism case,
of this kind, that was a matter of great importance.
Amongst those who would fall under the operation
of this Arrangement there were about fifty thousand
who held less than E-1000 each in this Stock, and the
inconvenience of calling on so many to assent, was
obvious. For the convenience of those who might
desire to express their dissent, printed forms of letters
would be ready for delivery at the Bank on the first
day. These might be filled up by the person dissent-
ing, or by any One appoint ad by the party to act by
the Power of Attorney. The order of paying them
.off would be according, to the numerical order in
which, the dissents should in registered on the hooks

. .
of the*plc. -The paging off attulA IMIt *is in
the s"th-or fiali nett. an 4 the payments would be con-
tinnedailsaillainent sh4uld direct ; but as he did not
expect there would be Many 'dissent, he did not anti.
cipate much difficulty on this branch of the transic--
shouldtn be mill off on one day.'
was ye (6 be deterininea li/tether the whole,
or at various periodi;
big it would be tisneenodgh to consider'of that when
he should be able to state the amount required to pay
,off those who dissented. By the 26th of George the
First, cep. SI, it would be-found that Parliament
possessed,
the power to direct transactions of this
kind. By that Act the manner and time of paying off
Stocks above par were left to the direction of Parlia-
ment. Having shortly stated the plan he had to pro-
pose, and contrasted it with that of Mr. Pelham in
1749, to which he trusted it would not be thought
inferior, it only remained for lilts to recal to the re-
colleCtion of the House the advantages which were
to accrue to the Public from the. transaction.—
There would be an immediate reduction of interest'
to the amount of £1,150,000 besides the Irish Stock,
leaving the field open for further reduction. A
similar operation with reference to the Four per
Cents. the House knew was in contemplation; but in
what manner, and at what time, Parliament might
think fit to afford further relief of this kind, it was
not for him to say. That must in a great measure
depend upon the firmness of Parliament to continue
to maintain the public faith inviolate, by their ste4-
diness in which co r e was alone to be attributed the
power of effecting the present operation—(Hear,
hear).—He took no credit to Government, which was
but the organ of the will of a Parliament, which was
a faithful representation of a free and generous peo-
ple. To the resolution of Parliament to support the
Sinking Fund, and its firmness in maintaining public
faith, was to be attributed the readiness with which
the Stockholders came forward on the present occa-
sion, whereas he would certainly have shrunk if Par-
liament had adopted the opposite course, and failed in
upholding the Stockholder in what he had fairly
earned. His Noble Friend near him (the Marquis of
Londonderry) had pointed out the wisdom of ad-
hering to the same steady course; and it was under
the confidence ho felt that such would be the line of
policy pursued by Parliament that he had resolved
upon proposing the remission of the duty imposed by
the Annual Malt Bill to the amount of the extra Malt
Duty. He was anxious not to waste the time of the
House; but as he probably might be asked why,
with the feelings he must have had, he did not take
advantage of the high price of the Funds in the year
1818 to bring forward the measure he now proposed,
he would make his answer beforehand. At the con-
clusion of the peace, it was obvious that there were
two great and important obstacles to the accomplish-
ment of such a plan. The one was, the projected re-
storation of the currency to its true standard ; and
the other to the reduction of public burthens, which
was so much the care of Government at that time.
It was necessary, with reference to one obstacle, to
guard against the abortive effects which the revival of
cash payments might have; and by the other their
hands mere tied. He likewise observed that had
it been then attempted the Public would have
been disappointed, as the prices of the Funds quickly
fell back to the point they had shortly befoie left.—
The earliest time for making this reduction had been
taken, and never could it be more opportune or more
acceptable to the Public. He considered this trans-
action as the sequel to the Resolution of 1819, pledg-
ing the House to the establishment of a clear Sinking
Fund; and to that also of Thursday last, pledging
them to a diminution of taxes, which had been held
out as one of the principal advantages to be derived
from the operation of the Sinking Fund. The Right
Hon. Gentleman declared, that in consequence of the
lateness of the hour at which he was enabled to open
this subject, he would not trespass longer upon the
time of the House. He then submitted a Resolution,
to the effect—

" That all persons holding Stock in the Navy Five per Cent.
Fund, who should not signify their dissent before the 16th of
March, should be entitled to £lO5 in the Four per Cent. Stock,
the Dividends upon which should be payable half-yearly, on the
sth of January and the sth of July; that the first Dividend
should be paid on the sth of January, 1823 ; and that the Stock
thus created should not be paid off before the sth January, 1829."
The Resolution was then read.

Mr. ELLICE, before he made any observations on
the plan which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had
submitted to the House, desired to be informed whe-
ther the condition of the dissent of the holders of the
Five per Cents. instead of their assent, was to be in-
sisted upon by Government ?

The CH ANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied,
that certainly his Majesty's Ministers had perfectly
made up their minds on that subject, and that no
alteration would take place in the conditions already
before the Public.

Mr. ELLICE was glad in having so explicit a de-
claration from the Right Hon. Gentleman, which
rendered it his duty to state his objections to this
most unjustifiable attempt to alter the terms on which
the public creditor advanced his money—the title by
which he held his property. The plan of the Right
Hon. Gentleman differed as mach from that of Mr.
Pelham, as openness, candour, and good feeling, did
from crookedness, unfairness, and want of faith.—
That Gentleman, he was sure, would never have
borrowed money from the Bank for the purpose of
reducing the Public Debt. He would not have
offered to change the title of the Stockholder's pro-
perty, or subjected him in case of non-co,mpliance
to a worse situation, upon such a short time for deli-
beration as was afforded for the dissent to the Right
Hon. Gentleman's plan. 'The dissenting parties were
to be paid off numerically : but how were they to
learn whose letters were delivered first ?—(h ear).—
This was most material, as there were consequences
attached to the situation in which they stood on the
list ; for as they were not all to be paid off on• the
same day, how would it be possible to sell Stock so
situated, when the first question of the buyer would
be, " Where are you on the list 2" Then, in the case
of trustees, it appeared
ito him this plan was most
faulty. In the event of their differing on the question
of dissent, if one signed, would the others be bound
by this act ? These, and many others, were the re-
sult of the Right Hon. Gentleman not following the
plan of Mr. Pelham, which was good in all its parts.
The Right Hon. Gentleinan had said, the terms now
offered created an additional debt of seven millions.
Why not, as a sacrifice must be made; propose to the
holders of Five. per Cents, gradually to, reduce the
interest as in the former case, and give them time to,

F

tiler ptlafionby a similar osticeofthree tntinth%
an.. ' theta require their assent instead of their issent ?
lint it was necessary, to suit the fancy of the tithes
and the interest of the jobbers, to have something in
the shape cif-bonus—and what has been the result?..-e*
IbTlty e Transfer O
benafideholffidecres,aat theunil HI
rums,
has
s,for beene
last
towweededki
anxious to avoid the consequences of this measure;--
1y have sold their all to the ready dealer retie
iFunds,
who •at their expense, takes the profit, profit at-
'
tenth the transaction, and these investments hare been
converteclanto foreign securities by the former holders
of them. French ?vides, Russian, Prussian, Danish,
'Spanish, Austrian, and even South American Stocks
have risen since the hioble Lord's speech at the com-
mencement of the Session, from 5 to 10 per cent.
and are still rapidly advancing. Either the exchanges
must fall, or the public securities decline, so as to
diminish the temptation for foreign investments, and
neither result would have o beneficial influence on the
success of the present plan. -Another difficulty might
be, the pressure of stock, which had been purchased by
the sellers from the former holders, on the market.
Since the publication of the finance measures of the
year, the rate of interest has also risen ; and it is yet
to be seen what the effect of any unlooked for politi-
cal event might be, under these circumstances, on the
money market. If it should be unfavourable, had
the Right Hon. Gentleman the same means Mr. Pel-
ham possessed of remedying the difficulty ? Had he
a surplus revenue, or Consolidated Fund to assist in
paying off dissentient holders, the source from which
Mr.- Pelham at list completed his arrangements? On
the contrary, the Consolidated Fund was now in
arrear nine millions, two millions having been added
to assist in keeping up the Funds last year, by apply-
ing that amount, in addition to the surplus of the
Revenue, for the redemption of debt. Looking to
the circumstances of the country, lie much doubted
whether this was the moment for the present at-
tempt. Still, as the House had determined to un-
dertake it, be would rot have withheld his support
or assistance, if more candour and fair dealing had
been displayed by Government in the transaction.—
The last condition was open to all kind of difficulty
and abuse. Suppose trustees differed in opinion, or
Stock was transferred ostensibly to holders in Europe
or America, why were persons taking advantage of
this evasion to be in a better situation than former, or
less experienced parties? He should also be glad to
know how it was proposed to class the different dis-
sentients according to the receipt of the letters, the
form of which the Right Hon. Gentleman said would
be issued by the Bank? They would, of course, be
all written at the latest moment ; and was it further
fair to impose a species of proscription on property
so situated, which would render it unsaleable in the
market? Such were the difficulties arising out of
attempts to deviate from the straight forward course
on an occasion like the present. He would put it to
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel),whose
candour would on all occasions stand the test of the
scrutinizing observatiou of his political opponents,
whether this new mode, affecting the title of the Fund-
owner was either consistent with public faith or the
character of the country ? The money had been bor-
rowed to be repaid when it was no longer expedient
to pay the interest. Offer an exchange, or fulfil the
other obligation ; but we had no right, until we were
in a position to guarantee the fixed payment, to injure
the interest of the Stockholder, or alter the tide by
which he held his property.
Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that from the year
1749 to 1792, about five millions of the National
1 Debt had been redeemed ; but, from the latter pe-
riod up to the pre,ent moment, no farther reduction
of that Debt had teen effected; but, on the contrary,
it had been increased from 229,000,0001. to above
800,000,0001. Therefore he thought it could not be
said that the establishment of the Sinking Fund had
operated very beneficially for the country. He en-
tertained very considerable doubt as to the policy of
the scheme now suggested. Of those persons who
had money in the 5 per Cents. upwards of 50,000
held sums, he understood, under 10001. The greater
i part of these individuals consisted of servants, who
had laid by trifling savings, tradesmen who had
' amassed a little money, and a number of women and
children, whose whole support was derived from the
i interest they received from this particular fund. The
I proposed plan would press hard upon the 50,000 per,
• sons, as stated by the Chancellor of the Exchequer td
be holders of small amounts of Stock. Another ob-
jection to it was, that, instead of reducing, it added
seven millions to the amount of the National Debt,
to redeem which would require six years of the
1,200,0001. of which the country was to be annually
relieved—(Hear).
Mr. MABERLEY asked, if those who dissented
would have the liberty of selling their Stock ?
TheCHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said,
they would still possess the power of transferring the
Stock, but considered as Stock to be paid off, and
subject to payment in the order in which it stood on
the list.

Mr. MABERLEY then said, that he was most
anxious that the plan. should be carrie.l into effect,
but he was of opinion that it was impossible all parties
interested should have time sufficient to signify the's
dissent under the proposed limitations. Within the
period of sixteen days war might be declared by Rus-
sia against the Porte, in which case.a great fall in the
4. percents. now at 98, would take place. flethought
if the Chancellor of the Exchequer did not wish to
take an unfair advantage, he would agree to an ex-
tension of the period for dissent to the tiOch of March.
_ _

Mr. RlCAlillo said, it would very much facili-
tate the plan, if such holder; of Five per Cents. as assented to
the terms proposed by the Right honourable Gentleman could
know at what time the transfer to the Four per Cents. was to
take place. The question of the dividends might at first sight
offer some difficulty; but this -difficiilty was more apparent than
real, because the very same dividend which was given to a per-
son holding 1001. in the Five per Cents. might be given to a
person holding 1051. in the Four per Cents. If this Steck were
quickly transferred, the natural consequence would be to raise
the price of it in the market; and as persons would be Induced
V/ speculate in it front the advantage of a 'Mall but quick prohr,
the operation, from this circumstance, would he much f teilitated.
The Right honourable Gentleman would, in, his opinion, do
weU if he explained very explicitly the mode In which ti:emoney
was to be paid off to persons who dissented, svhetfitr alphabe-
tically, by lot, or in the orderist which the letters were reet ire '.
It was quite evident that persons having an option, and who
were in doubt whether they might or might not h..vt: made a
bad barges, would not decide sill the latest moment.
Mr. WILSON said, that however expedient this no gip..
might be with a view to the reduction of taxation, still If that,
were a class of porticos span whom it pressed with peculiar hard.
ship, it was incumbent upon the. House to mitigate its stv:dby
much as possible. The interest of this Fund was not

•
,

:ay .4
Are-
ally
-