Star.
London, England, 1822-07-16 00:00:00

,--", -Tr,

the spirit of the British Constitution, and therefore
null and void. In pursuance of what was called a
right of search. thisfoieign vessel, within fifty miles
of the Dutch coast, in time of peace, had been treated
precisely as though under the circumstancesjiagranfe
hello. And if this were to be permitted, he asked,
where would be the security for British merchantmen
from similar treatment at the h ands of foreign nations?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that not
having heard of this case before, he could give no
information respecting it. He had no doubt, how-
ever, that it would be found that them were circum•
stances to 'instil), the imprisonment of the men, but
he begged to suggest that there were other ways of
obtaining justice, were it not so, than by applying to
Parliament. 'British vessels assuming foreign flags,
did not except them from the operation of the laws.
TIIE 1.0110 GOLLINGWOOD.
In answer to a question from Mr. RENNET,
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that from
the inquiries he had made relative to the reported de,
tention of the British vessel, the Lord Culling wooslo,
by a Spanish privateer, in January last, in.conso.l
quence of die blockade of Buenos Ayres, it appeate&
that it was not in any shape connected with the Spa-
nish colonial laws, as had been stated in that House.
He had written immediately to the Spanish Ambas-
sador, who was totally ignorant of the circumstance,
and was not aware of the existence of any privateer
of the name that had been stated, nor.did be know
anything of the blockade. He received the same an.
suer from the Board of Trade, and the matter was
now in course' of investigation by our Minister at
Madrid, as well en the part of this Government as
on the part of the Spanish Ambassador here. He as-
sured the Hon. Member that the utmost attention was
paid to the British commercial interests in this parti-
cular, and that no violation of rights of the nature
alluded to would be suffered to pass unnoticed. At
the same time he might obserie, that a distinct noti-
fication hAd been made sonic time back that this
country could not acquiesce in the colonial laws of
Spain—(Hear, hear).
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH considered the ex-
planation of the Noble Marquis as of a most gratify-
ing nature ; for it was certainly most necessary to the
well being of our commercial interests that they
should know that they will be protected against law-
less invasion and interruption. It was of great im-
portance to their security, that in commercial laws,
right should be merely incident to possession.—The.
Petition was then ordered to be printed.
TIIE GREEKS.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, he rose to pre.
sent a Petition, which, though signed by few names,
and of a novel description, was entitled to the atten-
tion of the House, and particularly of the Noble
Marquis at the head of the Foreign Department. The
Znition was from some individuals at Macclesfield,
and couched in warm, but as regarded the House,
respectful language, in reference to the sufferings of
the Greeks--(Hear, hear).—It was in language of
that kind in which the feelings of mankind were
usually expressed relative to such transactions, and
he was satisfied that the sentiments were such as per-
vaded all classes of persons in his Majesty's domi-
nions, and would be more generally expressed, were
it not for the difficulty that existed of pointing out any
practical effects to which it might lead—(Hear, hear).
These sentiments, he willingly avowed, were his own ;
and although he could not but see that any interrup-
tion at present of the general tranquillity of Europe,
would be a most unspeakable calamity to this coun-
try, yet he thought that a simultaneous effort of all
the Governments of Europe in favour of that op-
pressed nation, could not but be effectual. What-pm.
bability there might be of obtaining such st'cornbina-
tion of the Governments of Europe for so excellent
a purpose, he must leave those who were better ac-
quainted with them to say ; but he would venture to
assert, that a failure in such a cause would be ho-
nourable to any Government who should make the
attempt—(Hear). Such an attempt would be worthy
of the Government of such a nation as this, and it
would be in the spirit of the ancient policy of this
country towards oppressed nations. Tertitoiial secu-
rity was the only security that could be thought of
for the Greeks ; for even the despotic sway of the
Turkish Divan would be unable to wive from its
barbarian subjects the observance of any stipulated
safety. The only way, then, was to give the Greeks
possession of their territory, with a guarantee from
all the Powers of Europe, without being affixed to
the interests cf any one--(Hear, heal).
The Petition having been read,
Mr. HUME asked if it was true that refuge had
been refused to the flying Greeks in the lonian Isles,
seeking shelter from their murderers? He had received
information to that effect from good authority ; but
notwithstanding he had said, and still thought, that
'the acts of the individual at the head of those Islands
were contrary to the spirit of the British Constitu-
tion, and notwithstanding all he had said of him, he
could not believe that he could have issued an order
so contrary to the principles of humanity. He had
also heard that morning of some individual con-
nected with the naval service of this country having
gone out to assist the Turkish fleets. He hoped this
was not true, for it certainly was incumbent upon his
Majesty's Government to obse: ve as strict vigilance
in this respect, with reference to the oppressors, as
they did towards the insurgents.
Mr. WILNIOT said, he was utterly unaware of
any measure having been taken by the Lord High
Commissioner to repulse the flying Gieeks from the
lonian Islands. There were acts against their 'per-
manent residence; but he did not suppose these
would be put in force in such a case. He cer-
tainly had received no information up to that morn- I
ing, to countenance the supposition that the Lord 1
High Commissioner had issued any order contrary
to the principles of humanity. With reference to the
latter allusion in the speech of the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen, be could only say, in the absence of others
More competent, that there was an order of the Ad-
miralty against anything of the kind which the Hon.
Gentleman had stated to have occurred.
-Mr. C. HUTCHINSON could not permit this op-
portunity to pass without expressing his horror at the
conduct of his Majesty's Government in not afford-
ing more protection to the Greeks. He considered
war, in the present stateof this country, as the greatest
calamity that could befall it, except a peace upon
dishouousable terms, such as uo great empire could

.

long exist uncle: the InAllittefteelif character.
Me gave great credit to his irsty's Government
for the exertions at Constantlnop e, to maintain-peace
between Russia and Turkey. But a the object of
those exertions were havoc on the one side, with im•
punity to the other, he proclaimed it conduct 'dis-
graceful and Antis Christian. He called upon his
Majesty's Ministers to declare, upon their honour,
whether the establishment of 'peace befween Russia
and Turkey left the Greeks open to massacre, or u
that had been specially provided for. If not, he
should say there was no• free spirit in that House, if
it prorogued before obtaining a guarantee in favour
of that unfortunate people. He would tell the pea.
ple of this country, suffering as he knew they were,
that peace, under such circumstances, was a die-
honour to them. He did not expect anything from
Ministers ;he appealed to the People. He held the
policy of Ministers, ever since the peace, in abhor.
rence—they had been doing all they could to violate
the most sacred principles of right. He appealed,
therefore, not to them, but to men, such as the Hon.
Member for Bramber (Mr. Wilberforce), opposite,
who was not lost to every sense of religion and honour.
.The despots of Europe he knew had succeeded every
where, but in this country, in crushing the germs of
liberty. He wevrejoiced to see the struggles against
'tyranny making in Spain and elsewhere, and he hoped
to-see the tables of both' Houses loaded with Peti-
tions on thi.s subject, to awaken them from their le-
thargy, and rouse them to exert their influence to
check the further effusion of human blood—(Hear).
Mr. WILBERFORCE, having been applied to by
the Hon. Oentieman, begged to assure him that, for
the cause of the unhappy Greeks, it was impossible
that any one could feel more warmly than himself
—(Hear).—lndeed, he should hope that there could
be but one feeling among generous and enlightened
and Christian minds on their behalf. It was, in truth,
rather a disgrace to all the Powers of Europe, that
long ere now they had not made a simultaneous
effort, and driven back a nation of barbarians, the
ancient and inveterate enemies of Christianity and
freedom, into Asia. He was at all times far, indeed,
from advocating war (more especially where to under-
take it was to expose the tesources and the welfare
of the State to imminent hazard), unless, indeed,
peace could only be acquired at the price of disgrace
and infamy. At the same time he must declare, that
he knew of no case in which the power of a mighty
country like England could be more nobly, more
generously, or more justifiably exerted than in res-
cuing the Greeks from bondage and destruction !
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY protested
against the practice of entering into a discussion of
so comprehensive a question upon the occasion of a
Petition being presented.—He could not avoid, how-
ever, remarking
.on the readiness of the greatest
friends of peace in that House, at times to plunge
into the bloodiest wars. His Hon. Friend (Mr. Wil-
berforce) had disclosed to them a problem to drive
into Asia the whole population of European Turkey,
to the number of fout or five millions of infidels.
Those who knew something of the character of these'
barbarians, might perhaps think that they would not
be disposed to yield willing obedience to the mandate
of European Sovereigns for their transportation.'
After the bloody war they had seen terminated, if
such an attempt were made, their prospects of a long
peace would, he feared,, be found premature. We
should not, however, allow himself to be led into the
discussion of a question, which both politically or
morally was as large as any which could occupy his
mind. The House would do injustice to his Majesty's
Ministers, if they supposed that their efforts at Con-
stantinople were confined to prevent war between
Turkey and Russia.—(Hear).—He could not, how-
ever, coincide with the Hon. Member's (Mr. Hutchin-
son) views relative to the management of the Foreign
Department, and of the politics of Europe. It must
not be supposed that the barbarities of the Turks
were without parallel or provocation, and that no-
thing was to be deplored in this war but their atro-
cities. The Greeks were certainly making efforts to
free themselves from that thraldom under which their
state could not but be that of misery, and in the
efforts to mitigate their sufferings by this Govern-
ment, it was to be borne in mind, that the Rulers of,
their enemies, the Turks, enormous as was their de-1
spotic power, could not always put in execution what
they were willing to do, through the mass of preju-I
dice and passion with which they had to contend.
But still the works of ferocity and cruelty which had
marked this war on the part of the Greeks, were of
the most painful nature. It was not to be supposed
that the tide of barbarity flowed only in one direction.
If this country were wild enough to embark in a cru-
sade to establish good order in that country, the
whole power of Europe would not be able to con-
troul the effervescence of the elements of discord that
would be excited. He called upon Parliament to
keep its mind temperate and cool on the question.
They had done much for the peace of the world, and
might rely upon it that his Majesty's Government
would do all they possibly could to preserve the ge-
neral tranquillity, with the security of the Greeks &-v
(Hear, hear)—although they were not sanguine in
their expectations of accomplishing the banishment
of the population of European Turkey into Asia.
Sir ROBERT WILSON was convinced, that the
Greeks, with proper assistance, might establish their
emancipation. He hoped that orders would be given
to maintain a fair neutrality in the lonian Islands.
Lord A. HAMILTON. observed, that if he had
rightly understood the Noble Marquis to say that
the whole of the Holy Alliance had not influence
enough to procure from the Turkish Government the
cessation of their atrocities, it followed of course that
the war between that Power and the Greeks could
not stop till the annihilation of one or the other party.
Whatever the Noble Lord might intend with regard
to the lonian Islands, he must say, that he did not
expect that a fair neutrality would be preserved.
Sir ROBERT WILSON asked whether the same
respect would be paid to the Greek flag as had been
to the South American ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that the
regulations for a rigid neutrality bad been made with
regard to the lonian Islands, and if the Noble Lord
opposite knew of any circumstance of a contrary ten-
dency, he hoped he would mention it, with a view
to its being examined. He knew of no interference
that had taken plate with regard to the Greek com-
mercial flag. Neutrality was also observed to armed
vessels of both Powers. •
The Petition was then ordered to be printed.

/

of
sentiments the, real petitioners,
Brewers. But few of the Licensed Victuallers, he
believed, felt otherwise than well disposed towards
the Bill, at least such was their interest. -He was
strongly confirmed in this view of the case from a
letter he bad received from a Brewer's Licensed Vic-
tualler, which informed him that it was the practice
of the great Brewers in his neighbourhood to sign
those Victuallers' names to their Petitiom which they
could not otherwise obtain; and that his name had
Ilbeen signed, after his refusal to do so, without seeing
the paper. There was then a postscript stating the
undersigned to beg to subscribe their names, praying
that the Brewers' monopoly might be discontinued.
This shewed (he might go more into the subject on
a future day) that there were two classes of Licensed
Innkeepers, the one managing property of their own,
the other being entrusted with that of the Brewers.
The first was against anything being done that might
affect the monopoly at present enjoyed by the
Brewers; but this was by nc, means the case with the
second class, who wished for an open trade, that they
might be at liberty to buy and sell a wholesome beve-
rage, instead of that which was now in the first in-
stance forced on the Publican, and subsequently,'
through his means, on the Public, to the injury both
of the Brewer and himself, who were in conse-
quence forced from the alehouse to the gin-shop.
He had attended to all the objections urged against
the Bill, and every reason for it, without exception;;
one alter the other, rising one above another, made,
in his judgment, in favour of the Bill. He had re-',
ceived many letters on this subject; one of the last of
which stated that which was to this effect—" that DO
person would go to the alehouse if Parliament should
enable him to purchase good beer at a chandler's
shop, and therefore the Brewer. must be knocked up."
It was assumed that better beer'would, if this Bill

passed, be sold at chandler: shops than the Brewer
would ptit at the disposal of the Publican. A second
reason urged against the Bill was, that no man would
send his daughter to an alehouse for porter, if she
could get it by going to a place where she would
meet with more decent company, which it was sup-
posed would be the case if beer were to be purchased
at a chandler's shop. The first objection to the Bill
was, that it would injure the sale of bad beer; the
second, that it would tend to preserve the morals of
the poor, as the poor man would send his daughter
to the chandler's shop, where she was less liable to
;be corrupted than if sent to the alehouse. He now
thought he had made out what he had stated, that
the reasons urged against the Bill made in its favour.
For the regulations which might be necessary to
guard against injuring any property that demanded
protection, these would be for the consideration of
the Committee, and in the Committee no man would
be more anxious than himself to remove. every just
ground of complaint on that account.
The Petitions were ordered to lie on the table.
IRISH INSURRECTION ACT.

Mr. GOULBURN moved the Order of the Day
for reading the Irish Insurrection Bill a third time.
Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON, without approving of
those disorders in Ireland, which no loyal man could
view but with feelings of deep 'regret, felt it neces-
sary to explain the motives which regulated his con-
duct. He considered the House to be now in pos-
session of the measures which the Government meant
to propose in the present Session of Parliament—
looking at these, he had no hesitation in saying, that .
enough had not been done for the relief of Ireland.—
It was now twenty-two years since the Union, which
was intended to consolidate the interests of the two
Islands, but the hopes held out to Ireland were not ti
realized. He did not ascribe the famine which now
prevailed to the measures of Ministers ; nor did he
quarrel with Ministers for not effecting a commuta-
tion of tithes ; but what he quarrelled with them for
was this, that they had never inquired into the situa-
tion of Ireland, till they were compelled to do so by
some impending calamity. He complained that the
promise held out in the King's Speech, at the be-
ginning of the Session, had not been made good.—
He contended that the Irishman was made of good
stuff—was fit to be trusted, and if his good qualities
were obscured, it only proved that there was some-
thing radically wrong in the system of Government.
He dissented from the Secretary of State for the
Home Department, and the Noble Marquis, who
thought that Ireland had already engaged enough of
the attention of Parliament, and that all had been
done that could be done. He eulogised the Marquis
of. NN'ellesley, but maintained that, as a public man,
he (Mr. Hutchinson) was bound to oppose his call
for the renewal of the Insurrection Act. He was
glad that the Act when passed would be committed
to humane Magistrates, and to an enlightenett Lord
Lieutenant, but this was not enough for him. Before
he voted for this Bill he wished to see that more had
been accomplished for the relief of Ireland than had
hitherto been done. While the present fearful dis-
tress prevailed in Ireland, if the public money could
afford relief it was the duty of Parliament not to suffer
the people of Ireland to come to their bar as mendi-
cants, but to relieve them to the very last shilling.
He denied that Ireland had profited as she ought to
have done from her connection with England. The
evils which had oppressed her were in fact such that
it was time the Governitent should retrace its steps,
and that a course the reverse of that which had
hitherto been pursued should be taken. Transporta-
tion and death were not the means of correcting the
evils which existed. These were not the expedients
to which a good Government would have recourse;
they only served to prove the absence of all • go.
, vernment. He objected to the several provisions of
the Insurrection Act, but one of the greatest objec-
tions which he had to it grew out of the insults to
which females were exposed under it—(Hear, hear).
He had seen soldiers and others enter a hut where a
whole family reposed in one room ; the women—die
grown up daughters—the brothers, and the other
members of she family. Thus circumstanced, respect
for decency was still preserved ; but when the sol.
diers with a Magistrate had entered one of these cabins
of misery, he himself had seen the females who were
its inmates, obliged to quit it, in a state of perfect

tim.lity, that their beds might be searched. The In.
. sunection Act could not be carried into effect with.
out producing such scener. He did not wish to with-
, hold from Government the powers which they had a
right to claim ; but what he declared before such a
law as that now called for was passed, was this
such an inquiry should take place as would (he
was convinced such would be the case) make every
man in Ireland loyal. He was grateful for the
manner in which the distress of Ireland had been
taken up in England, and especially for the manner
in which English Members had exerted themselves.
What he desired was, that an inquiry into the state
of Ireland should take place—that a Commission of
English Gentlemen should take the subject in hand.
They conid not be better employed, and the result
would be some measure which would confer int.
portant benefits on Ireland: He did not undervalue
the dangers to which the loyal were exposeJ. He
could not view' the disturbances which had taken
place without horror, and was anxious that every
means should be used to put them down. But lie
contended the duty of the Government did not end
there. They .ought to take other measures, and en-•
deavour to get at the root of the evil. This Bill got
the Lord Lieutenant a power which he ought not to
possess.. The other measures which the Session had
(Produced were inefficient. The Tithes Leasing Bill
lie.thought-a very useless measure. He considered
it objectionable in many respects. But he, notwith-
standing, took it such as it was, a boon, and thanked
Ministers; for in this he recognized a disposition cn
the part of Ministers to do something to relieve the
distress of Ireland. He hoped it would be ti:llowea
up by a measure for commuting the tithes. He felt
that he should not have done his duty..had he not de.
precated the passing of the Bill before the House, be.
fore an inquiry had been instituted into the state of
Ireland, with the view of getting at the root of the
evil, and sifting the grievances complained of to the
bottom, in order to guard against their recurrence 4
some future period.
Mr. MONCK thought the present Bill might be
necessary to check the evil complained of, but he re-
gretted that it would not strike at the root. The cause
of the evil he believed to be the redundant popula-
tion, which exceeded that of any other part of the
world. While the people of Ireland were contented
with potatoes, instead of being corn-fed, like every
other people of Europe, he feared the calamities nov
experienced would be of frequent recurrence. He
was sorry that Irish landlords were not more in the
habit of living on their estates than they had been of
late years. An evil like that now felt in Irelan would
be prevented in this country by the humane inter-
ference of the laws. It was hard on this country tha:,
besides maintaining its own poor, it should he called
on to relieve the suffering population of Irelai-td. But
saying this, he was far from wishing that this cour.•
try should abate its exertions to assist the Irish, where
a calamity df such magnitude was to be met. The
'lrish Gentlemen were of opinion, that in England the
subject was not understood. He had read a letter
two days ago, which said, " Give us the Insui ection
'Act for the rich, and potatoes for the poor, and we
have. all we desire." He, however, did not wish the
poor to have potatoes, he wished them to have corn—
to be fed on bread. He would not say that the Pocr
Laws ought to be introduced into Ireland, as at that
moment he feared their operation would reduce these
who were now considered rich to the level of the porr,
Colonel TRENCH coincided in the view whit::
the Hon. Gentleman who had last spoken took of the
causes of the distress which now prevailed in Ireland,
but he thought that this Bill ought to pass as a mea-
sure of necessity; and not only as a measure of ne-
cessity, but as one of mercy. The evils which
fficted Ireland were of two kinds—the one was caF.!-
hle of being diminished by legislative influence—the
other was not. Among the former he considered the
state of the Magistracy—the tithes—and the want of
education among the poor. The other was the ab-
sentees (the number of whom would be increased by
any effort to diminish them), the high rents, and :he
manner in which the poor were neglected by those
who ought to protect and inform them. He bore
testimony to the natural excellence of the
Irish ch--
racter, and the meritorious exertions of the Hibernila
Society to diffuse the blessings of Christian know-
ledge, and the light of education, which were amon3
the most important means of ameliorating the cond:-
tion of Ireland. One of the most crying evils had
scarcely been alluded to, though the remedy w.t; is
the hinds of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. T: le
evil was the Excise Laws, and the remedy would to
found by licensing small stills. By such a
the Revenue would not suffer, as in that case the ac:i•te
young men, who now formed an army hostile to th=
law and the government, would be on its side.
who paid for a small still would be active to sec that
others did not profit by illicit distillation. f
proved of the Bill, and was convinced that, i 2 the
hands of the present Government, there was no danger
of its powers being misapplied.
Mr. WILBERFORCE spoke in favour ot; reading
the Bill a third time. He deplored the present
tress of Ireland, and declared it was impossible to
any man to wish that distress removed more anion,,'
than lie did, but the powers of the Insurrection Act
appeared necessary to him to prevent the dowt:!ill
of government and law altogether.
Mr. It. 'MARTIN concurred in the eulogium w: •
the Hon. Member for Cork had pronounced en t':J
character of the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, 1,:*:
complained of the objections urged against all Ow
measures which had been brought forward for tl:c
relief of Ireland. He particularly regretted ti!-.
amendments (if it were not a blunder to call them s,•l
which had been made in the Irish Constable; !Nil
IF had originally been proposed in it to give power
to appoint a salaried Magistrate, on any extracid •
nary emergency. This would, in his opinion, h."
been advantageous, as he was sorry to 4.:OldeiS th.a,
as the Magistracy of Ireland was at present 4-.01%56.-
toted, a poor man would probably not obtain jug"
with the same promptness as a rich man would. It
was then important that a Magistrate should b.: ai''
pointed, who would fill a more neutral situati.v.—
He would ask any Irish Magistrate (being like !nal'
self, a County Member) if it would' nut be a gre-it,
relief to him to be able to say to those who pie
their affairs on his consideration, " I hare not time
to attend to your cause myself ; but there is a Gen'
tleman—go to him, and you will obtain prompt j":",
tice at his hands?" The salaried Magistrate WOll
be the blagistrate far the poor man in Ireland. He

•
BILL.
presented Petitions fm. m the Vie-
tuallets of almost eveOrtown tes Essex against the
Beer Bill. He begged lease to say that he was de- ,
cidedly favourable to tberptiuciple of the Bill, and!
should certainly vote for sending it to a Conwitiuee.
Mr. BROVtiIIAM assured the House that he had
no doubt of these petitioners expressing the sincere'
re2l netitioners. Who were the I