Star.
London, England, 1831-07-06 00:00:00

tie a ctacs, that tea' - titian had been r, up h e the: mon -
tees of the corporation, and diet peseta had been insects
te sign it by belie; three ...114.V they lefueed, to be deprived
of their share in the fmtde ,if h:uify in the hands of the
terporatien. This was denied by the honourable member
who pre ented that petition, but be had since received a cot.
robotatien of his statement, and the present petition had
Bien entruettil to him inecaneequenee. by which it would be
seem that the far tar poition did net speak the sentiments of
the majority of ;he inhabitants of the town.
Nir W. J RAKES ftlt surprised that the honourable
member Amer; he the voluntary machine of 'Resenting such
a petition, the enact intended to be produced by which was
to nen4alise a tertian which he had presented from the
hnuseholdere of Alarlbewougb. Was it, he would ask, in-
tended by this petition to prove that his petition was not
true ? 1115 petition had been signed by upwards of 130
yorenes. while that of the honourable member was only signed
hq 110. "'hie!) 119 signatures had been procured with the
oreittest difficulty. and only by dint of going front house to
hottee. He (Mr. Bunko) 'felted to know whether the hon.
member was state that the petition be had presented asked
for election by hr lot. he could not bring himself to think
that he did. The greater mat of the inhabitants of illarl.
!enough were totally against the prop :el plan of ref ;rm.
Mr. WELLFSLEY ottservtd, thet the first signature
was that of a banker, and the second that of a naval officer;
these were proors of their truth. The borough was, and had
been Lord Arleeberv's, his Lordebtp;tarlng nominated for
more than the last half century. Tee members of electors
had never been more than six or eight. There had beta in
three or four years five or six petitions to open the beroue*:.
All were for the Bill.
Petition ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.
The Marquis of CH ANDOS gave notice of his intention
to mime the followieg addition to the Referm bill in the
Committee An tl et blll :—" That any person occupying and
farming on his own account, land of not less value than fi9l.
a eear, though without a specific tenure of the land, shell be
entitled to vote at elections of Knights of the Shire wherein
the land is situated; provided always that nn such occupant '
‘hall be entitled to vote entil he shall have been ore year in
the bona fide peseeesion cf such land."
REFORM BILL (ENGLAND )
Lord J. RUSSELL moved, that the order of the day for
the adjourned debate be read. The original motien and
amendment were then rend by the Clerk of the House, and
Mr. Ti. A. DUNDAS said, that having on a former oc-
sion received the indulgence of the house, when lie had ven-
tured to express his opinion on the subject now under its
consideration. he should trespass very shindy 03 its patience
in the observations he was now about to offer. He could not
edmit the principle laid down by the Hon. Member for
Kirkcnabright (?Ir. C. Ferguson), that this was an improper
eeason for members connected with Scotland, to call the atten-
tion of the house to any hut that part of the measure which
ref( reed to :his country. He had no hesitation in saying, that
the thanks of the house were due for the arrangement which
me hon. member for Newark hail nude with Government;
that the three measures should be placed before the house at
once, in order that an opportunity might be furnished for con-
•Meretely trying the merits cf that bill upon its principle and
its de::!ils. Ile begged to be understoot . that in the observa-
tions he now effired if be strictly c .mined himself to the
two points of the measure which appLed to England and
Scotland, without alluding to that part of it which related
r.) Ireland. he could :stare hon. members who were ccn-
remelt with that country, that it did not arise f:om any in-
difference to its interests, but because, fe, ling himself less
conversant with its history, lic should Lave that to those
who could do it much better than himself. ) He
had listened with greet attention to the able speech made by
the tight hen. manlier for Knaresborough (Sir J. Mackin.
resit), and al,* to the statement made by the noble lord, the
Paymaster of the Forces, on the evening when he introduced
the measure: end although he did not pretend to question
the facts deduced from history, which the noble bold atel
the right hon. gentlemen asserted to justify the great change
which government wished to introduce into the Constitu.
lion, yet them was nuthii g in these facts which could jus.
tify the sweeping, unconstitutional, preposition, to which
they called on the [louse to accede. (Hear.) The noble
lord contended that there never had occurred a period for
fifty years loge :her at which the Constitution had remain-el
the same, anti that Ministers were not the first who, with
unit:di/wed hands, now dared to violate the sacredness of
the constitution. But if it were admitted that changes had
been progressively going on In the constitution, and that
these changes tended to confirm the liberties of the people,
he contended that with all the knowledge front history
brought to bear as a precedent on this measure, they did not
ral:e into consideration the gradual succession of these changes.
That changes most important had taken place he did not deny,
nor did he admit that these were attended with injury to
the constitution. This was obvious from the simple fact,
that in those changes in which they had been attended with
benefit, they had enntiomot to (cm put of the conAltution,
whit, to every instance in which they had been attended with
injury, they had almost immediatelybeen discontinued. But
he said it with firmness and with much confidence in the
assertion, that from the days of Henry VII. down to the
present time, no change had been introduced, so general in
ire provision, and so sweeping in its nature as that proposed
by ministers. There might perhaps be what he had heard
stated by an hon. baronet, (Sir F. Burdett.) that the first
alterations might, in n manner, he somewhat of an innova-
tioz on the constitution, but he would say in:the earliest feudal
times e f our history, when the contest was carried on between
the horse and the barons, that the people might at that pe-
riod Lave exercised the right of voting without any parti-
cular definite qualifications. But as good government and
social order were the best proofs of the blessings of a con-
sti:utior, he was willing, for the sake of argument, to rake
a history of the rights of the electors, of the elections of Erg.
Lind from the days of Queen Elizabeth. (Hear.) The
rekte lad who introduced the measure had referred with
match exultation to the constitution during the reign of the
Tailors ; and argued that because the constitution had not
then settled, he in those days was justified in making a consi-
derahle change. But, although the constitution was not
weed at that time, yet there did exist, both before and
eve: since that crisis. the same right of election throughout
the cities and berceghs of this country, which existed at the
present moment. The same system continued to influence
the electors of that house during the subsequent dynasty of
the Stuarts, and by that influence were secured to the Com-
mons of Erglerd those distinguished privileges which
were enjoyed. It was stated by the noble lord, and attended
to by the right hon, member for Knaresboreugh, to free
themselves front the charge of Republicanism that 'they
folksy/el the sentiments of the illustrious Lord Clarendon.
Bo; the system introduced by Cromwell, was not to be taken
as a entople of what would have been introduced by
Leel Clerenden, but even that introduced by the former was
meth more moderate and conservative than that proposed by
the government. He gave the noble lord (Russell) credit
for his intentions when he said that the intention of his bill '
iris to maintain unimpaired the prerogatives of the crown,
the just authority of both houses of Patliament, and the,
rice :s and liberties of the people of England. He believed
the noble lard was sincere in his statement; but what was
the plan proposed by Cromwell ? He would take it front the
statement of Mr. Hume. That 'niter said that Crotteell,
in the parliament which he called in 1047, deprived of their
right of electior, all the small boroughs moat exeeed to
competition. Of 400 members who represented Lngiaud,
271 i acre chosen by the counties, and the remainder of
them were elected by London and the more considerable cor-
porations. An estate of 2001. annual value was necessary
to totide any ore to vole. Now, on a comparison of the,
systems, this most material difference was to be found, that '
Cromwell in his charges paid respect to the corporations,—
which the principle of this bill went wholly to destroy. And
that an tome of 2601. sterling, which would now-a-days
amount to between 0001. and 7001. was to be lowered to the
ablest no Tutlifica•ion of 101. Admitting that parliamentary
reform was necessary, and that the demand was for an uniform
instead of a varied election, a position which he admitted for
the sate of ingtin.ete—lie could not lite feel surprised that
miristets should not have grounded their measure in some
atoll way as to Lai e confined the elections to persons of pro-
perty and undi-puted respectability. By such a course that
comupt system which had been so much spoken of es exist-
ing in boroughs, and particularly in those places popularly ,
re resented, would have been removed. It had been proved
by t xemierce that if ministers had introduced any measure
of a more 'retrieved nature, it would have been easy at any
dote to have extended Its provisions ; but it had always been
difficult, and it- many instances dangerous, to attempt to cur-
tail liberties when they had been once extended. As, how.
ever, a noble friend (Lord Porchester) of his had said, this
measure was undoubtedly and avowedly a measure of expe-
riment. If ministers failed in this experiment, what would
be the consequences no one could foresee. He would ask, if
te•lno of ins Majesty's ministers or any respectable person in
:he tore:dont could suppose that the highly agitated hopes
aid teetiegsof the people would ever apain quietly subside
into an acquiescence into that system sender which we had
been now living (should the present measure fail), and which
lie conscientiously believed to be by der the more beneficial
and discreet system. He felt confident there was not an indi.

s ',dual in that house who was ready to suggest a remedy,
should die measure fail. And when he looked round him,and
saw the incentives there were to action—when he referred to
his own country, and observed the prudent management of
the inhabitants there, of their domestic affairs—their marked
prudence even in their speculations, be could not help being
astonished at the political mania that now raged throughout
the country. He did not hail those ebullitions of enthu-
siasm with the same view as did honourable gentlemen on the
soh ir side of the House. He could not believe they were
the harbingers of either good government or social order;
and whatever the result might be, he was certain that they
augured to good or any Lope of permanence even in the
state of things which would succeed the passing of the
measere.-- (Hear, hear.) If the people were excited on this
occasion, that excitement was attributable not to their own
conduct, but to the conduct of the honourable gentlemen op-
posite, who, while out of office, held up their imaginary
grievances, but grievances for which, while they had been in
offiee, they hail rot been able to apply any substantial re-
medy. He could not help adverting to the comparison of
popular feelieg forty years ago, made by the noble lord who
brought in the Bill, and the popular feeling that existed at
present. pia was sensible that if he brought forward state-
ments in detail to centradict the analogy that had been
drawn, he should be met by corresponding speeches re-
specting every town. But, admitting the proposition of
tie Noble Paymaster of his Majesty's Forces, that a Re-
form, and an extensive Reform, might be necessary in the
rLi r,:nin:atian of some parts, an universal sweeping mea-
sure, like the present, could on no account be called for.—
'Latin as to the Union between Scotland and England,
and the subsequent Union between England and Ireland,
being made (and they h. d certainly been SO rag ticd) grounds for
the disfranchisement of many of the towns of England, it was
clear thatboth the &inch anti English Cotntnissiorers struggled
hard to have as extensive a system of franchise for their respec-
tive counties as they possibly could ; what was dor e was very
eoon considered on all hands to be then equitable and just,
but it was as different from the present sweeping measure
as day was from night ; and if the present arbitrary form of
legislation was to be adopted, he could not see why the same
tart of policy should not enter into dealings with private pro-
peety. Ile was sorry that the noble lord (the Secretary for
Foreign Affeits) was not now in his place, but he trusted the
house would soon have the benefit of his talents and of his
• experience. The opinion of that noble lord on the (Reran.
chisement of the Irish 40s. freeholders, was so clear and so
I decisive, and his reasons for opposing that measure so strong,
that he (Mr. Dundas) would advert to it. The noble lord
said, it had bean argued in support of that measure that it
would pui az aid to a vast deal of fraud and pet jury, that was
usually co..anted by that class of voters, but he, the noble
lord, said he was decidedly opposed to such a sweeping
act of injustice, and that it was most unjust to make the
I existence of one evil the cause for committing a greater.
! Now, it was more unjust in the present instance to dig-
franchise individuals by this bill, than the measure of
! disfranchising the forty-shilling freeholders, for in some
degree the latter persons received compensation by the
passing of the Catholic Emancipation Bill, while the per.
proposed to be dishianchised by this Reform Bill,
would receive no compensation whatever. He would admit,for
the sake of argument, that the English reform bill was
founded on strict justice, and that it was proper to disfran.
chew so many boroughs; but it the English bill were-just,'
what was the principle upon which the Scotch bill was
founded ? Why was not the same principle applied to both
countriee ? It was said that the object was to destroy the
nomination of members, and to extend the right of voting
to great towns, but when he found the measure for Scotland
conducted upon a different principle, he was at a loss to
divine by what the ministers had been governed. The
principle of the English bill seemed to he to disfran-
chise boroughs, while in Scotland it was to disfranchise
counties. Many of the Scotch counties contained a greater
population than some of the English counties. Another
material point was this, that while in England a town of
less than two thousand inhabitants was to be disfranchised
in schedule A, and a population of above two thousand par-
tially so in schedule B, the whole of the disfranchisement, as
regarded Scotland, was to operate in a far different way.
It hen he was told that the signs of the times called for
reform, be must confess that it was his opinion that the
sign of the times called on them to unite and rally round
the institutions of the country. An hon. baronet (Sir J.
Mackintosh) last night stated in his speech, that he would
touch with delicacy on the events which bad taken place on
the continent, he was right in doing so ; but he (Mr. Dun.
dace) recollected that nine months ago, during the Duke of
Wellington's administration, when he bad the honour to se-
cond the Address to his Majesty, he then stated that he ap-
prehended danger would arise to the constitution of this
country from what had taken place in France. He admitted
that the revolution in that country arose from the arbitrary
measures of the king and his ministers, rather than from the
bad feelings of the people' but there we. nay no individual
of property in France who would not exchange their pro-
mised hopes of security, for the mild government of the
house or Bourbon. Never was there an occasion when
there was less necessity than the -present to trample
under foot those institutions which raised this country
to its present eminence, and which had conferred on
the people a greater share of happiness than has hi-
, ;hero fallen to the lot of any other nation on the face of
the earth.

Capt. BERKELEY (we believe) addressed the house
shortly in support of the bill. Ile spoke from under the
gallery. He said, he should support the bill to its whole ex-
tent. It had been said that the people of England had made
use of this great measure as a cloak and disguise for revolu-
tion, nnd still worse proceedings. He (Csptain Berkeley)
considered this a most gross libel on the people of England,
for he was satisfied, as far as his own constituency went,
that no such feeling was in existence. He trusted that
when the present measure was passed into a law, all emnity
would be dropped ; and he hoped the cry of the bill, the
whole bill, and nothing but the bill, which gave so much
offence to parties, would be buried in the same grave with
the cry of " no change—least of all such change as you can
give us." (Cheers.)
Sir J. NIALCOL3I said he felt it to be itisduty to oppose the
Bill. He had attended, both in the last and present Parlia-
ment, to all the discussions that had taken place In the house
upon it, and the supposed effects of its operation • but with
a good deal of surprise he had not observed one single word
said as to the probable effect that it would have upon our
colonial interests. He considered the measure a concession
to the popular feeling--(hear from the Opposition)—and tic
thought that those who were at the bead of the Ouvernment
would do well not to give ear to popular clamour at the ex-
pense of private interest. And he could not see the neces.
sity for going to such a sweeping extent. He added, that he
had the good fortune to belong to schedule B, or the bad
fortune as it might be. Dependence was talked of—he
knew of none ; and yet if there were, there must be some '
men dependent on others, whoever might be the Ministers.
He looked at the question in a national point of view only.
His objections to the Bill were those he had stated last Ses-
sion ; they were only confirmed by time. He repeated, he
must regret the measure, as being a concession to popular
feeling—(hear, hear)--as a yielding to clamour. (Hear.)—
With a firm hand they ought to pursue what they thought
would contribute to the public good. The feeling of
Englishmen, was obedience to the laws ; and be appre.
!tended none of those serious consequences from the rejection
of the Bill, which others anticipated. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Those who sought these changes, he would ask, what was
the:situation of those who bad been in the last ? Except
by their wealth, they had no means of taking part in the
constitution. There was talk about boroughmongers—would
it not be as rational for him to denounce demagogues ?
NVltere was the reason of such argument ? Those who re-
ferred to the Tudors, should recollect how different was the
state of things now ; the extent of the population at present
obeying English rule. He must be pardoned if he looked
to results—if he relied on the fruits without reference to the
character of the soil. He spoke confidently from his expe-
rience in India; and he knew well the character and impor
tance of maintaining our resources in India. He then spoke
of the great reductions of expenditure in India, which
&hewed the excellence of the government there. He said,
the inhabitants of the vast empire of India confidently look.
ed up to the blessings of the government of this country—
and would they, then, consent to change that government ?
Now, India looked to participate in the rays of royalty ;
but what would be its fate it the bill passed ? He felt per-
suaded that reason would still establish its ascendancy, and
show the injurious character of the bill. To the argument
of compulsion and to threats, he was most unwilling to sub-
mit—he hoped they would not be swayed by such oratory.
—( Hear, hear.)
Sir F. VINCENT said much had been observed about
pledges, but were there no " pledges" to Peers from those
who filled boroughs? Were there not "delegates" front
the Peers as well as from the people ? (Hear, hear.) He
thought there was as little good taste as good sense in these
remarks. (Hear.) But to show the weakness of such lan-
guage, he would ask, had there not been constantly pledges
demanded where there were popular contests ? He ap-
proved of the bill ; it was essentially the same as the last

bill. The power of the parliament to interfere in remedy.
ling evils in the representation on various occasions bad been
proved. All admitted some reform to he necessary. (Hear,
hear.) The eyes of the people were opened. They would
not be satisfied without extetisive and real reform. They
saw that many members had been quite as anxious to con-
sult and promote their own advantage as those of the public
—he only said " bad" been—(a laugh and cheers)—and the
people desired, and justly, representation of a different dia-
meter • such representation es would really and wholly con-
sult the people's interests and welfare. lie could assure
them that the people were no longer to be blinded by so-
phistry , they could consult and pursue what were their own
interests. He denied that the late elections had been car-
ried by any delusions. It had been declared that the people
sought reforin as something that was to make provisions
cheap ; they had nut sought it, and did not promote it on
any such extravagant ground ; but they did believe that te.
form would effect most substantial relief for the country.
And he concurred confidently in that belief. Could they
forget, could the country forget, that all the real and sub.
vandal measures of relief that hail been proposed to that
House had been as invariably rejected by the House ?
What then Lad the country to hope, but from reform. The
truth of Mr. Pitt's assertion had been realised, that no ho-
nest man sould be a Minister and do justice by the people.
And the people saw it made manifest every where, and in
every possible shape, that the power of the tax consumers
was greater than that of the tax-payers. The people had
these opinions, and he thought they were right in holding
them. What had i.assed, hr thought, demonstrated their
correctness; he should, therefore, give the Bill his humble
Drat firm support—reserving to himself the right of suggest-
ing alteratione in the committee. (Hear, hear.)
Colonel TRENCH considered that the nieasnre was rash,
improvi lent, ill-considered, and revolutionary ; that it
would encroach upon property, and the most important
public interests; and he should rhererore conscientiously
but most decidedly oppose the till. (Hear, hear.) Thcrc
hul been teretefore made a parallel between Tavistock and
Cambridge, but it was not borne out by filets ; Tavistock
had no members, and Cambridge 200 representatives.—
(Laughter.) He n cant electors. Cambridge was not under
the dictation of the Duke of Rutland ; the electors, desiring
to avoid revolution, looked up to the duke, but they were not
under his dictation : whereas the Duke of Bedford had tenants
in Tavistock. There was, therefore. tee itherjetstice nor truth in
the parallel and criticism of the noble mover of the bill.
The Duke of Rutland had not an inch of ground in Cam.
bridge. If, however, the bill were persevered in, and if out-
rage took line, he cottfidently looked to the laws to rescue
the country from the imminent dangers that would follow
the bill. Ile trusted that the day was far distant when they
should be operated upon either by violence from without or
• by eloquence and passion within doors; and lie also trusted
that the time was remote when the S•tvereivn would have to
submit to the dictation of that house, which he was sure
would be the result, if the changes contemplated by this bill
were carri,d iuto eine. As to the threats that were held
out—that they would become victims who sliculd dare to
oppose the bill—he despised them ; and he hoped that they
would be equally despised by all who professed to have the
hearts of Englishmen.. . .

Mr. VERNON said, that notwithstanding the doubt that
had so frequently been cast upon the fact, there wos, he
could assure the houso, something like unanimity nniorg the
people of Nottingham, and that the mass of the intelligent
and tespecable of the population were in favour of the
measure of reform. He had heard much of the slight that
bad been endeavoured to be cast upon what was called the
cry fcr the bill, antl nothing but the bill. lie confessed that
he had given encouragement to that cry ; and he had codes-
voured to teach his electors to discern between mock and real
reform. Considering the artifices that were' too frequently
' resorted to at elections, it was necessary to have something
like a test, and he had taken fur his ten the bill of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers. It had been said that there existed no such
excitement as now pervaded society until this bill had been
proposed, he assigned us a reason for this that there never had
till then been any substantial plan of reform offered to the
people. He was an avowed advocate for the measure
of reform, but he dii not become its advoctte under the in-
fluence el fear. lie did not crouch before the genius of
Reform like as the Ilindoos did to appease the malignity of
their idol deities with victims, but he beheld its advent as
the appearance of a tutelar saint ; and he cheerfully surren-
dered to it all right and claim to nomination as a merited
and deserving ofkring. With regard to alarm raised about'
the violation of the Constitution, lie considered that the
Constitution was a thing which must yield to the visits of
experience. Government must be progressively improved.
With regard to necessity of a change, tie would adduce, as
a proof, the unanimous feeling that ha,d returned the pre.
sent parliament to pass this bill of reform. But this, it
bad been said, was no more than a feverish excitement ; they
...ism 3‘.••...sett ".7 'hat the lightning was the work of
the philosopher, who bad constructed the conductor. Ilia
Majesty's Ministers had not claimed it as their thunder.—
The hon. member proceeded to enumerate several reasons in
favour of the bill, end said that the last point he would urge
upon their attention was, the evidences of their own con-
sciences. lie appealed to them all if it was not true that
member. for counties and large cities had not always had
more weight and consequence in the House, and as such
had been ushered into public notice, than members for.
smaller places, in the present state of unequal representation
—(A few cries of no, no.) Gentlemen might cry no, no,
but they could not deny that in the lists of returns that
issued from the public press such names were always sent
forth with an asterisk, and every one understood the mark
of distinction. At the present moment it was necessary
to give satisfaction to the people. (Hear, hear, hear.)
The Gallant General (Sir J. Malcolm), had, as an ar-
gument in favour of rotten boroughs, urged the necessity
of their existence on the ground that they were the only
channel through which the colonies could be represented,
for through them alone could the Hon. Gentlemen gain ad.
mission to the house, who were :possessed of information
sufficient to reptesent the colonial interest. The Hon.
Member was of opinion that no danger need be apprehended
on that head, regartiing the representation of the colonial
, interests. There never could be any difficulty in that
House of procuring infotmatien sufficient for that purpose
—sufficient to rule the colonies, but not to be ruled by them.
He would instance the gallant General himself as a bright
example, whose interesting works on the policy of the co-
lonics contained a mans of information so comprehensive
and definite that they were not likely to be more enlightened
by the admission of a vast number who might present them.
selves as the reptesentatives of the colonial interests.
And that interest might be very well attended to, although
the proprietors might not perhaps be enabled to command
a seat in parliament by the dash of a pen remitted to
their banker.. There need exist little apprehension that'
all those gentlemen who had signalized themselves in the
proper qualifications as members fur that house, would as
easily procure seats in parliament under the new system as
the one that now existed. • The honourable gentleman
went into a detail of the advantages to be expected from the
bill, and said that he approved of it because it destroyed all
nominations, and abridged the expenses of elections. For
what purpose was all the mockery of an election preserved,
theSparade of high constables, beadles, and poll clerks, while
nominations were suffered to exist—while it was known that
the return was really eQeted by the single voice of the no.
mination of the borough. The oppositionists to the measure
had been indefatigable in pointing out anomalies in the new
system proposed, but they would not see nor admit of the
anomalies of the present system. With regard to the reduction
of the expenses of elections, that had not been sought for by
his Majesty's Ministers for their own benefit;—but it had
been done for the good of the people, and to enable them to
ret. to as representatives men of their choice—The word re-
volution had been used again and again to scare them from
their purpose, but there need be no tear entertained on that
head by the hon. gentlemen, if they would rid themselves of
their own prejudices; these might perhaps alarm them, but
there was nothing to be feared from the people, whom they
were rather about to more firmly unite to themselves. The
hon. gentleman briefly referred to different periods of his-
tory, and said that, however the house might receive the
declaration, he candidly confessed that the word revolution
had never to him been a frightful word, as he looked on It
as it had ever occurred in English history. In conclusion,
if he were asked would he be contented if he saw this day-
star of the British constitution set, that day-star which had
been painted by Burke in such glowing colours, he would
answer, that be would be contented, for he felt assured that
it would only set to rise again in increased light and splen-
dour. The honourable gentleman concluded his speech by
eulogizing the measure in moat glowing terms, and eat down
amidst loud cheers.
Mr. DEARING acknowledged that the people had a right
to be fairly represented, and he said that, if the present house
was not the representatives of the people, they consequently
could not legislate in so momentous a question u thegrest
change proposed. It had been admitted that the bill would
confer no practicable benefit upon the people, which was
a strong presumption that no practicable evil existed in the
present system. Mr. Pitt's system of reform had been often '
quoted as authority by the supporters of the bill; but if they

referred to that system as brought forward both in 1782 and
1785, they would find that the first principle laid down in Mr.
Pitt'a plan was, that reform was not to be erected by dis-
franchisement. He did not mean to urge the justness or un-
justness of the act, he only meant to infer that it was wrong
in policy, the franchising of certain classes to the exclusion
of others. The restriction to the 101. rents would disfran-
chise many in the country, while in large towns it would al.
most establish universal suffrage. And in like manner the
regulation of the terms of leases would operate. The
country gentlemen and the town proprietors would be placed
in similar states of conflicting interests. It was clear that
some interest must Buffer by the change. By the present
',stern every interest found its advocate within these walls.
The measure must be the forerunner of still greater dangers.
The noble lord who brought forward the bill had acknow.
led that he had framed a bill on a former occasion, in which
he had proposed to take one member from each of the bo-
roughs, but he had abandoned it on refection, being convinced
that the first set of • reformed parliament would have been
to take away the other member from them. The hon. gen-
tleman went on to point out the anomalies in the proposed
measure, and the unequal distribution of members, which,
he said, wits much worse than the existing system, and
would only lay the round for fresh dissentions. The noble
lord had declared he wished this to be a final measure, and he
(Mr. D.) believed that his lordship was sincere ; but could
he answer for his allies 1 He feared not ; when he saw his
lordship cheered on by all the turbulent spirits of the coun-
try, those who would destroy whatever was venerable of the
institutions of the country, he could only anticipate that
worse consequences must follow. The hon. gent. said, that
although be would oppose the bill, he still would always be
ready to support any improvement that might be suggested
for the benefit of the coonny. If they would rally round
their ancient institutions, all the good would be realised
that the noble lord in his most sanguine desires could hope
for.

Mr. L. BUJ.MRR supported the measure. He at great
length enquired into the relative positions of the aristocracy
and democracy of the country, and said it was the duty of
the aristocracy to remove the cause of complaint. The bill
had obtained the sanction of an intelligent, enlightened, and
unanimous people. ( Cheers.)
Mr. LYONS had to choose between the new untried
constitution, the result of the labours of the present Govern-
ment, and a constitution, the fruit of much wisdom and ex-
perience, which had carried this country through so maiy
storms. (Hear, hear.) He recognised, not the gradual and
prudent innovations of our forefathers, but sweeping aid
sudden changes. The destruction of the corporate rights
was unjust, because the corporations were not proved to have
forfeited their privilege by any improper conduct : impolitic,
because these boroughs had been the channel through which
much talent, and integrity, and wisdom, had found its way
to that house. The class of members to be excluded had
by their presence prevented a collision between the upper
and lower houses. Five new members were given to Ireland.
Was, then, that country so conciliated and attached to Eng-
land as to warrant such an increase? (Hear from Mr.
O'Connell.) The Protestants were too few to have any share
in the elections under the proposed system. He hoped his
apprehensions were unfounded. He sincerely prayed that
the commonwealth might survive these rash and inconsiderate
innovations.

Mr. GODSON said he was proud to have been bound by
the Reform pledge—a pledge demanded from their represen-
tatives by a free people, at the request of a patriot king.
Why was the anti-reformers who taunted them for being
pledged, not pledged themselves? Because they had no
constituents. (Hear, hear.) Parliament bad a right to
change the representation. At the union with Scotland
and Ireland, the representation of those two countries was
completely re-modelled. The English boroughs had been
repeatedly dealt with. Public opinion, talents, and elo-
quence were arranged on the side of reform. Now was the
time to effect it, when the country was in profound peace
He denied that the colonial interest would be unrepresented.
An East or West India merchant, who laid out hie money in
this country would be better represented in one-half of a
county thin in any rotten borough. Why should the IW.
franchise be incompatible with the Constitution I, The ex-
tension of the representation to the large towns was admitted
to be just ; but if a new class of franchises were not created,
the election would be made by the payers of scot and lot.—
(The honourable member became inaudible, owing to the
loud coughing of the honourable members.)
Mr. E PEEL said that the expectations of the people
respecting the measure of reform to be dealt out to them by
the bill before the house, would not be realised. The great
object of the bill was to disfranchise fifty-seven boroughs
altogether, and take one member for forty others. He did
not see how the spoliation of the rights of the people could
be justified; but sure he was that the day was not far dis-
tant when the delusion of the people on the subject would
be dissipated. It was intended by this bill that the rights
Possessed by a ~oats *mkt of freemen shall not descend to
those who shall come after them. Put then the present
freemen were to enjoy the power they possessed during their
lives; so that a power which was said to be dangerous
and subversive of the great principle upon which the elective
franchise was founded, was to be continued to the present
possessors of it. Was there not something very contradic-
tory in this circumstance ? The non-resident owners of
warehouses were, by this bill, to possess a privilege which
they had not heretofore enjoyed (cheers from the opposition).
So you give to the non-resident rich man a power which you
take from the non-resident poor man (repeated cheers from
the opposition). These freemen were as independent a set
of men as could be found (hear). Perhaps it might be said
that they were open to bribery (cheers. and laughter from the
treasury benches). But, he would ask, was these any proof
that the ten-pound liftmen would not be equally open to
the influence of a bribe ? (Cheers front the Opposition)._
After some further observations on the provisions of the
Bill, the hon. member concluded by saying that he should
oppose it.
Col. TORRENS supported the measure of Reform be.
fore the House, because it was called for by the entire peo-
ple of the country; and he would place the responsibility of
the consequence resulting from a refusal of the measure
: upon the heads of those who should oppose it.
1 Mr. TREVOR asked why a body of 'icemen who had
I not been found guilty of any Improper Set should be die.
franchised, as was proposed by this Bill. It was said that''
1 the voice of the people of England had been raised in favour
of Reform ; but was this cry to drown the still voice of
I discretion ? The King's name had been most uncon-
stitutionally used to advance this measure of Reform :
I(hear, hear; and cries of oh, oh.) lie did say that placards
I with " the King, the People, and Reform'—(cheer from
both sides of the House)—yes, such placards had been placed
11 upon the walls throughout the country, for the purpose of
deluding the people t (cheers from both sides of the House.)
But the ple would soon awake from this delusion • ' and
he ho his Majesty's Ministers would then be prepared
ho
for sat an occurrence. Although he admitted the necessity
of some reform, he yet could never give his assent to a
measure that was calculated to destroy the constitution under
which they had so long and so happily lived. (Hear.)
1 Mr. MACAULAI would discuss this question without
reference to party topics. He would go into the consideration
of the question without reference to the permanency of any
set of Ministers • for the question of reform was far moss
important than Minister;
existence of this or that Ministry. Be-
fore he entered upon the general question, be would proceed
to examine one argument that had been ed on this subject.
The elective franchise had been argued as if it were property
—as if it were an estate, or as goad property as that pa-
seised by the fundholder s (hear, hear ; cries of no, no, from
the Opposition.) He understood the argument to go to that
extent. He denied that the elective franchise was property,
and it was because be so considered it that be gave his sup-
port to this bill, which he contended did not invade vested
rights. In all the debates which took place during the time
of Cromwell, Lord Clarendon and Hale admitted that the
elective franchise was not property, and the reform which took
place at that period was nut considered any violation of pro-
perty. The disfranchisement of the 40a. freeholders was de-
cisive on the point. lie believed that every man in the
country did not consider the present measure an attack upon
property; and considering that the elective franchise was
not property, the only question to be considered was the ex-
pediency of the measure. The honourable and learned mem.
ber then referred to the speech of the Noble Lord (Porches-
, ter) which he admitted chewed great talent, but he disputed
the inferences drawn by the noble lord lions the state of
France, and denied that the House of Commons bore the
least analogyi to the Chamber of Deputies. He considered
the Chamber of Deputies a forced assembly, an exotic pro.
duced by the violence of patty feelings. England was advancing
in c vilisation, and that alone rendered the improvement of her
institutions as essential to the well-being of the country. The
whole history of England was a history of succession of re.
forms. (Cheers.) The institutions of England had edu-
cated the people and prepared their minds for better insti-
tutions. (Cheers.) England surpassed every other country
in improvements, and those circumstances and improvements
evinced the superiority of the information of the people. He
then referred to the state of the laws, which he considered a
disgrace to the country, and which he expected would tad-

mately be improved through the effect of the proposo
measure. (Hear.) What was the state of the public mind
during the late Administration ? Why, the Dort:maim
were afraid to chew the Sovereign to the people. He conn.
dared that the present bill would Lad and excite inereaged
attachment on the part of the people to the king and the lare,:.
From every part of the country where the voice of th_ peopb.
was heard, there was but one opinion upon the expedienct o.
the Reform proposed. He wished to know if the hon. gen.
tieman on the other side intended to propose any measure
of reform more calculated to satisfy the people ? The pr.
sent bill was objected to on the ground of various aramealits
it contained. He would ask did the hon. members whoop.
posed the measure intend to lutreduce a measure whirl.
would possess less, and one more likely to improve the in.
stitutions of the country and the representation ? (Hot
bear.) lie believed that the present measure would
not be final, for a hundred years hence, probably ado.
tber change might be deemed necessary. This was no!
the country to wage the war of power against public opinion
(Cheers.) The hon and learned member concluded a very
eloquen. and argumentative speech, by expressing his con.
scions belief that the proposed bill would consolidate and
improve the institutions of the country, and that future
generations would consider the noble bill under discussion.
second Bill of Rights. The hon. member sat down amid•
loud cheers.

Mr. W. BA NEES said that he had listened to the speed,
of the hon. and learned gentleman with great attendee,.
but denied the justness of the theories laid down by the hoe.
and learned gentleman. The opinion attributed to Lent
Clarendon was incorrect. The hon. and learned gentle.
man, in the commencement of his speech, deprecated any.
thing that was exciting, although he did not adhere v.
such a principle in referring to the time of Cromwell—
The noble lord who introduced the measure also referred to
an observation made use of by that person, when he wit.
neaseed the :catch army within his power, and applied th
expression to the hon. member who opposed the Bill, ar,::
returned thanks to GOD for having placed them in hie power
(laughter). The hon. member then animadverted upon ne
principles of the bill, which he condemned as likely to prove
destructive to the best interests of the country. He Wt.
nessed with grief the course which his Majesty's Govern.
mcnt were pursuing (hear, hear).
Lord ALTHORP said that there was nothing in tlt,
speech of the Honourable Gentleman which he did not re.
ceive good-humouredly. lie believed that the Honourable
Gentleman was much mistaken as to the opinions of Lem
Clarendon. He was of opinion that his 3lajesty's 3linisters
could not do less than bringiforward the measure of reform,
and they could not attempt to bring forward any measure
that would not receive the support of the people of England.
Nothing less than the bill proposed would satisfy the country.
The Noble Lord passed a high eulogium upon the speech
of the Noble Lord, the Member for Wootton Bassett,(Lord
Porchcster,) but at the same time denied the correctum of
the view taken by the Noble Lord of the cause of the vatio.-
revolutions on the Continent, and the effect that the pre.
posed Bill would produce in this country. He believed that
the whole mass of the aristocracy would acquire an increase
of influence under the Bill. With respect to the extension
of the right of voting to freemen during their lives, :be
Government considered that they had acted ul:on equitable
views. It was alleged that the Bill would lessen the Colo.
nial and East India influence in that House. He believed
that those interests would cot suffer, as the character ac.
quired by gentlemen in the East Indies would secure to
them a seat in that House on their return to this country.
He did not know on what grounds Honourable Gentlemen
' could firm an opinion, that gentlemen of rank would not
be retained for counties and popular places, if this bill payed.
Some of the largest counties in England were now represented
by members of the aristocracy. In his opinion the people
had a strong attachment for the aristocracy, unless such is
appeared to be opposed to the interests of the bill. The noble
lord having sat down, there were cries of adjourn! and di-
vide !—Silence having beta restored,
Sir 0. MURRAY rose to address the house, when Mr.
PICLIIBII moved an adjournment. Here there was *general
cry of no! and the Srzoasa decided that Sir Geo. Murray
being in possession of the house, had a right to be heard.
Sir G. MURRAY then proceeded to observe, that he was
not one of those who had been at all times opposed to Reform,
but the sweeping change now proposed to be made he beard
no reason to justify. In his opinion, the House, even as it
was now composed, was the most efficient legislative assem-
bly in the world. He would ask what benefit would arise
to the mass of the people from this extraordinary change ?
If no advantage was to be derived from it to the people,
what could be the object of it P Surely, the fact of
it producing a better theoretical system of represen.
tattoo was not sufficient to justify such an alters.
tion in the Constitution of the House. We should
continue to improve our Constitution by such cautious
changes as were applicable to the circumstances of thetimes.
The three estates of the realm were not distinct and pep'.
rate, but blended with one another; it was to that circum.
stance we owed out stability. The tendency of this mess.
sure was to separate those estates, which would destroy the
principle and practice of the British constitution. He raw
nothilg in this measure ealculated to make the House mere
efficient for legislating for the interests of the country than
it was at present. He was certain that the noble lord
(Althorp) would not be the Cromwell of the piece which Is
was preparing for the theatre; but that Cromwell was per.
haps, rejoicing in secret, and ray ing to himself, the Loan bad
delivered them into my hands. Ile would oppose this bill, not
through a factious spirit, or out of ar.y hostility to a prudent
and moderate reform, Litt because Le theught it would lead
to one of those convulsions which had upset other states.
Colonel SI BTHORPE moved the adjournment of the
debate until Thursday.
Mr. HUBIE thought it more convenient to adjourn until
to-day.
After some desultory observations, the debate was ad.
journed until this evening.
Lord ALTHORP expressed his hopes that the house
would come to a division this night.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of; and
the House adjourned at Two o'Clock this morning.

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE.

EXCLUSIVE EXTRACTS
FROM THE CONTINENTAL PAPERS.
FRANCE.

We learn from Bordeaux, that the Royalists
unanimously abstain from taking any part in the
approaching elections. We have received similar
news from all points of France. In the circum-
stances in which we are found, the royalists do
themselves honour by that wise and worthy resolu-
tion.—La Quotidienne.

The King, Queen and all the Royal Family,
with Marshal Soult, and General Sebastiani left
yesterday forMelun,they will return to• day. Nothing
as yet transpired, about a change in the Ministry,
of course all are wishing to keep on the best terms
with their constituents at the present moment,
which gives rise to many conjectures and ru-
mours, and in the cabinet it would produce a
thorough re-organization, and therefore no pains
will be spared amongst the Ministers themselves
to keep the thing together as long as they can.—
Le Temps.
An historical fact which requires to be cleared
up is now pretty n-torious. At the Battle of
Waterloo, M. Tibare Sebastiani commanded the
11th Light Troops —At the moment of route,
the waggons were pillaged; and a sapeur found
a White Flag of silk, embroidered all over with
golden fleur delis. On one side was: " 11th
Regiment of Infantry ;" and on the other " Vire
k Roil" The Sapeur carried this Sag to the
general of his division; who, striking his head,
cried out: Treason, Treason ! The remains of
his flag are deposited at our office, where every one
will be permitted to see them. We call the atten-
tion of the Messrs. Sebastiani upon this important
fact. If the suspicions which it appears to autho•
rise are confirmed, that family will indeed be un-
fortunate! Every thing is discovered ! There is
no more underground work now-a-days !—La
Tribune.
The Ministerial workshop is in full activity.
labouring away at the Electoral Machine. Yes-
teaday it was the affairs of Poland, which were
upon the point of being arranged at the powerful