Star.
London, England, 1831-04-19 00:00:00

parish and borough are close together, and in which it happens the
parish is chiefly formed of the town, the borough itself being very small.
There are other eases of a similar kind, such as Chichnta, Newport,
and so on. It is very easy upon a matter of this sort to form a charge
of partiality ; but I think if any one will refer to the book of popula-
tion returns, and to that which has been entered " a corrected return,"
I am satisfied they will perceive there has been no partiality what-
ever. It would be very easy if I could think that any Members of
this House would be reconciled to this measure by taking the bo.
rough of Caine or Tavistock, or any such one, and adding it to the
disfranchised boroughs—it would be very easy to do it, and I am
sure nothing could give me greater pleasure than to think that we had
got five votes by occasioning the interests of any persons whatever con.
nccted with those boroughs. (Cheers.) With regard to Caine, a great
deal had been said that a reservation had been made for the interest of
Lord Lansdowne; but he (Lord John Russell) could state that there
were only two houses in the borough that paid 101. alear of rent that
belonged to his lordship; and had the interest been transferred to the
county of Wilts, his lordship's influence would have been much
more likely to have been enlarged ; but, indeed, when the honour,
integrity, arm transcendent talents of Lord Lansdowne were taken
into account, no measure that this House could adopt would ever de-
prive his lordship of political influence. (Loud cries of "hear, hear.")
The noble lord then proposed to give representatives to all towns con-
taining above ten thousand inhabitants. To Bury, Oldham, and Roch-
dale, they proposed to give one member each. To Salford, independ-
ently, Manchester sending two member's, they proposed to give one
member. To Stoke-upon. Trent, and parishes adjoining, one ; to Warm-
field one ; to Whitby one ; the town of Halifax would be taken out of
schedule A, to be added to schedule B. To all counties in England and
IVales it was proposed to add one additional member. and those coun-
ties containing more than 130,000 inhabitants would have the pri-
vilege of sending four member,. Glamorganshire, which sent one,
would send two. He then observed, that Buckingham, Marlbo-
rough, and three other places, would be taken out of schedule A. and
put into schedule B, and seven towns now included in schedule B
would be allowed to retain their representatives. Scotland was to have
five additional Memberv, and Ireland five, so that the total diminution
of Members would be 31, leaving the total number 627. With regard
to the voting, many complaints had been made; it was therefore pro-
posed, that in all counties the right of voting should be extended to
all persons holding leases of 999 years, and for all those holding leases
of sixty years of 10L a year value. As respected the voting for towns,
it would include all those occupying houses, warehouses, and counting-
houses, at the same ratio as householders. (Hear.) With respect
to continuing the right of freemen during their lives, it was proposod
to extend that to their sons who were nearly of age, and apprentices
whose time had not yet expired. With regard to Preston, all those
now entitled to vote should retain the right for their lives. (Hear.)
An alteration would be made regarding the returning officer, who
was to preside at all elections. That officer would be appointed by
the sheriff on March I, every year. The register-book would suf-
ficiently attest the eligibility of voters. In making the calculation
with population al the data, the interest of property had not been
forgotten. He was decidedly of opinion that no one who had the
welfare of the country at heart would defer the measure, for It might
be attended with consequences not easily to be calculated upon should
the measure be deferred for another year. He had taken the pre-
caution of having a corrected copy of the bill sent to the printer, so that
every member would on the morrow (this day) be put in possession of
the Bill as it was entire. He had before him two very prominent opi-
nions—the opinion of Lord Grey, who contended for the necessity of
the measure ; and the opinion of the Duke of Wellington, who as de-
cided!y opposed it : but however much the noble Duke might be en.
titled to claims on other accounts from the country, his opinion in
this case was not correctly formed. The fact of the House, such
as It was constituted, having by a majority, certainly a very small
one—(hear, hear, from the Opposition)—but still it was a majority,
having supported a second reading, was a strong proof of the Im.
perative necessity of the measure. (Hear, hear.) His Lordship
here enumerated the many interests that Ministers had to contend with,
and came to the conclusion, that the majority on the second reading,
although small, was, in point of fact, one of unparalleled magnitude,
after one of the moat lengthened and obstinate debates that had ever
taken place in that house. (Hear hear, hear.) This was the bill, the
whole bill, and nothing but the bill. bis was the very bill that had
been, by the sanction of his Majesty, submitted by his Cabinet to that
house. The details had been Interfered with certainly, but the prinei- '
pie was the same as it was the first day it was proposed to the at-
tention of the honse. If any gentleman thought proper to again
enter into the principles of the measure,_ he (Lord J. Russell) was
ready to meet him, and to defend it. Whatever others might say,
those who proposed the measure were bound to its principle, and by
its principle they would abide. (Cheers.) Whatever advice Mi-
nisters might have given their sovereign, the House might be assured
that they were bound together for the purpose of carrying the bill.
That bill having been announced to the people under its present princi-
ples, and announced under the unction under which it bad been an-
nounced, having been so received and approved of by the House, to
alter and break in upon it, would be to prepare a contest as dangerous
as it must be fruitless. The measure had been brought forward under
a condemnation of boldness. He was, however, nut so hold as to do
one thing—to carry on a contest for die borough proprietors against the
rights and interests of the country and contend for the unjust influence of
a few at the risk of a general commotion. He thought that if passed now,
the bill might be passed in tranquillity. But if the house did not listen
to the advice which he humbly offered, he felt that those who had
undertaken to command the majority against the bill, had a task to en.
counter which no minister would be able successfully to achieve. If
ever there was a minister powerful in the esteem of his country, from
the services which he had performed, it was the Duke of Wellington ;
he who, from the victories he had achieved, both in military and civil
life, was entitled to such attention and respect, and had been the confi-
dential and all-powerful minister of two successive sovereigns ; if be, by
his opposition to Reform, found that power at once crushed and shivered
by a storm to which he would not bend, where was the minister with the
character, the influence, the talent of uniting men together, that he could
venture to undertake the conduct of authority in that house, and hope for
a successful contest against the mighty will, the clearly pronounced wish,
the undeniable, loud, and enthusiastic voice of the people of the three
kingdoms.—( Great cheering.)
The question having been put, that the house resolve itself into a
committee,

General (iASCOYNE rose to move a resolution. He would first ask
whether this was what ministers considered the whole of the bill, and
nothing but the bill P (Hear, hear, from both sides of the house.) He
thought the bill should be withdrawn, and brought In as a new bill.
(Laughter.) His main objection was to the reduction of members.
From the earliest period he could find no one instance of a proposition
for reduction. They might grant, if they pleased, representatives to the
large towns ; but he demanded that England should not be deprived of
her just proportion. Population and property formed the basis of the
The population of Ireland had been exaggerated at the Union, being cal.
eulated at 4,000,000. The revenue of Ireland was then 4,700,0001.
that of England 27,000,0001. At present the revenue of Ireland loudly
exceeded I.loth of that of England. What would the Scotch and Irish
members have said bad a reduction in their number been proposed, for
the increasing of the English representatives ? The hon. member for
Waterford would have called the proposition an infraction of the Union.
The influence already possessed by the Scotch and Irish members was
apparent • it had been seen on divers questions, of taxation, cash pay.
ments, and other important subjects. The present concession would
lead to demands fur • further increase on the part of the Irish mem-
bers. The result would be, that Ireland would remain for river corn.
partitively exempt from taxation. He repeated that his main (Nee.
tion to the bill was the reduction in the number of members, and he
should move as a resolution, that " It is the opinion of the House
that the total number of knights, citizens, and burgesses.repro.
senting England and Wales, should not be diminished." (Cheers.)
Mr. SADLER seconded the resolution. He considered the reduction
of the English Members unjustifiable, especially at a time when such
vital questions were agitating throughout the country; when the unity
of the empire was threatened ; and even the sword had been appealed
to. He proceeded to say that he found it difficult to deal with a measure
subject to such fluctuations. The prnt bill was another edition of
the late budget, and would, ere long, like its predecessor, retain
little else but its name. It would seem that the late innovations were
not the first which bad taken place, if they were to judge from the
original declarations of a noble and learned lord, that the reform
to be proposed would obtain the support of all reformers. The
Member for Cambridge could tell them whether that general support
had been obtained. He contended that the direct mode of repre.
sentation proposed was dissimilar to the principle of virtual repre-
sentation, which the founders of the constitution had never lost sight
of. They never acknowledged any principle of representation founded
on geography or statistics. In the boroughs, and he could cite as an
authority for this opinion, a late number of the Edinburgh Review, the
elective franchise was vested in the select burgesses. The present mea-
sure was not, therefore, one of " restoration," but of " pulling down ;"
it was revolutionary. To allude to the nomination boroughs, none
could be ignorant that such boroughs, so often stigmatised as violating
the spirit of the constitution, had been created by the Crown for
the sake of affording a virtual representation to large masses of
property. These boroughs were the only safeguards to pro-
perty : once done away with, there were no deeds or
parchments which could guarantee its preservation. He could prove
on the very best authorities, that inflames was necessary if the constitu-
tion was to be preserved. By whetting was they to judge of what was
called the rotten system ? by expedence. Look at the revolution.—
Would that great event have been hem& about but for the close and
rotten system ? What would blase of the Let ol Settlement, but
for the same system? That Am paned by a majority of are; the
county =ohm woe two to or Spinet lt, so were the open towns; it
was the dem tad seseusystem that gave us the House of Beunewick—
a Weis to this esimmy owl so the world. (bond eries of hear, hear.)
When the thetelmo et polies obedisto was prevalent in this
liberty ; that wee the
the ekes and Mom lesesegh
case at the tidal of limhotoreLT:lo=tdas beta feather thrown up
lo the eempoot ; still Mimed the waft of the system. Only thirteen
mein, nemltme void he limes of *Cool zeligisse liberty. The

triumph was achieved by the close and rotten system. It sou not only
necessary that the House should have patriotism, but talent. Whet,
the bill of rights was M be drawn up it was done by the Members to,
rotten boroughs. The same was the case with the committee of ma.
negement appointed to confer with the Lords. If at that time the eon.
stitution had been dealt with as it was now proposed to deal with it,
this country wouldnot have the bill of rights new the house of Beers.
wick. (Hear, hear, hear.) The advocates of the Bill spoke of
' doing away with virtual representation ; but should the Bill pa,..,
which God forbid, the electors would still be a minority, and there
must be virtual representation, or no representation fur the majorin .
—They appeared to suppose that all under the firmament of t.ti
pounds a-year rental was dark and feculent, that all above we.
light and pure ; but he could tell the Noble Lord, that if be were
better acquainted with the society of this country, he would find as
much personal purity below his firmament as if he went as high as
stars and garters. (Hear, hear ) If virtual representation was to be
abolished, how were the scores of millions of British subjects in Indis
to be represented, when even the generous fiction by which they nor;found advocates in that House was to be taken from them ? The Con.
stitution had the power of improving and of preserving itself. The
imputation of rottenness was not new. Addison called the imputation
that Parliament was made of corruption, a stale accusation. Locke did
not hesitate to say, that though representation by election often herons
unequal, and when a decayed village sent as many representatives a, rs
rich county, strangers stood amazed, and the case required a reined). it
possible, to be applied; yet, as the Constitution was determined by the
people, there existed no power to apply the remedy. (Hear, and a
laugh.) The boroughs proposed to be taken away were, in many in.
stances, not decayed, but were advanced in importance since the eleethe
franchise was bestowed upon them. (A laugh.) He saw the fouls
treated this with levity. Thus it was—
" Fools rush in where angels fear to tread."—(Great laughter.)
Bacon had often been quoted when he said, " time was the great inno-
vator,"—but what followed was omitted. Time, he said, innovated
slowly—it were well if men followed the example. (Hear, bear.) We
were going to innovate rashly by taking away a large portion of out
representative system, and by revolutionizing the remainder. (Hear.
hear.) How had they acted with the venerable building In which they
were then assembled ? They saw the hand of time was on it ; but they
did not call in a Committee of architects to destroy it with the ham-
mer and axe, that they might erect a modern building in its place;—
no, they repaired it stone by stone, and preserved the venerable
monument of genius, to triumph over the pigmy moderns by which
it was surrounded. (Hear, hear.) He was confident when this cabinet
model of representation was examined it would be found to contain
more faults than that which it was to displace. It was impossible that
the people disfranchised by the bill could be satisfied with it from any
other cause, than regarding the present bill as a stepping stone to all
they sought. The wonderful unanimity that was boasted of was proof
of this—it was the calm before the tempest. As far as he could under-
stand the measure, it was to constitute a legislature free from influence.
It was obvious a town population had advantages a scattered popula-
tion could never possess. The noble member for Tavistock, in his
Work on the Constitution, said, the worst constituency was that of
large towns. The first basis of representation, according to the bill, was
property ; but it appeared by the returns to the property-tax, that the
rental of the towns sou thirteen millions, while the rental of the land
was thirty-eight millions. Turning to the other basis, the population
of the towns was 2,920,000, while the population of the country
was 8,341,000. It might be objected that some towns were not in-
cluded, but their population was under 500,000. The bill, therefore,
proposed to give to thirty-eight millions rent, and between eight and
nine millions of people, 149 representatives; and to give to thirteen
millions rent, and three millions of people, 295 representatives ! What
reason could be assigned for giving representation in such dispropor.
dons ? It was to verify the language of Burke when writing on the
new French constitution :—" You appear to me to proportion your re-
presentation in the inverse proportion to property a opulation."—
They all knew the result. (Hear.) They were told that virtual repre-
sentation would rectify this defect, and that the influence of country
gentlemen would procure their return for the neighbouring towns,
Yes, if they would make certain promises. (Hear, bear.) He was
confident a qualification would be required. and those who supposed
that the influence of the aristocracy would by this means be pre.
served would be deceived. If one man did not bid high enough at
the auction of popularity, another would. (Hear, bear.) This was
what they were going to do; he was going to say with their eyes
open, but it was with their eyes shut--for the mental eye was expe.
nence; they had no experience of the proposed system, but they had
much experience of the system they were going to destroy. They dealt
unfairly with the present system. He bad thought that the most flagrant.
the most infamous part of the present bill would have been extduehd.
All who were acquainted with the subject knew that the rated rental was
a very distinct thing from the real rental : after the present bill it would
become the same, for the purpose of qualification, and the expenditure
of 100 L would at any time confer a vote. While this was done in
towns, what was the case in the country? The agriculturists
were not to have a vote for a rental of 101. a-year—it might be, not for a
rental of a hundred times 101. He would be glad to bear how any man,
inig or Tory, could defend a principle of this sort—it was iniquitous
from beginning to end : (hear, bear.) The Noble Lord drew an ex-
ulting comparison between the farmer of Norfolk and the elector of
Devises. He could not be sincere in the compliments he paid the
rural population. He had positively disqualified a large body of
agrieulturista, who rented ten times the amount of the ten pound a-
year townsmen. The Constitution of Cromwell had been alluded
to :—contrast his scheme with the present; he gave to the counties of
England 237 representatiees, and the towns 141; the present gives the
counties 143 representatives, and the towns 277. Cromwell's Consti-
tution had reference to the proportion of wealth which this measure
wholly disregarded. The powers of the bill proposed to divide the
counties after the fashion of the French Revolutionists. In the counties
one member was given to about 60,000 of the rural population. There
was but one principle apparent ; it was either partial, or it displayed
an ignorance that he would not impute to any constitution makers in
the world. He knew what would be the effect in many of the counties,
they would be rendered close boroughs. Durham first presented itself,
and certainly required explanation. Durham was to have five additional
members,and the great county of York one additional member. Durham
was to have one member to every 34,000 rural inhabitants ; the West
Riding of York was to have but one member to 303,000 rural inhabi-
tants. A noble lord, not now a member of that house, might explain
this. Northumberland was to have four members. The noble lord at
the head of the administration might explain this. Lancaster was to
have but four members, though it contained twenty times the wealth
of some other counties. Northampton was also a favoured county. By
what rule he could not determine. He must assert that it was a dangerous
principle to determine a man's right by the number of neighbours he might
have. It was a gross act of injustice and folly to take from a man his
birthright because he had not more neighbours. It was said the fran.
chile sou a trust; but he always thought a trust was not to be taken
away till it had been forfeited. The franchise was a trust, so was the
Crown. This was the language of the noble lord himself, who said
there ought to be as good reason for disfranchising Old Sarum as for
expelling King James. The noble author added, it was extremely dif-
ficult to cut off some boroughs on aceoant of their size—if a borough of
500 electors was to be cut off, what was to save a borough of 56. Any re-
form of this kind would lead to the reconstruction of the whole building
• plan he wished to avoid. It was singular that with these opinions and
feelings the noble lord had propounded such a plan as the present Bill.
He pledged himself to stew the noble lord places infinitely better en.
titled to return members than Peterborough, Mahon, Cabe, or Tavis.
cock ; and it would be too ridiculous to plead antiquity where iniquity
and right had been disregarded. (Hear, hear.) He would give half a
score places, In a neighbouring county to Dutitue, dint hod mare Jahr
bitants than Gateshead, that were left lump There tune
resiz.
that could justify this partiality. He was congas* the new cod=
not bear examination. These were his Imbibed opinions hag
before he contemplated having the honour of a seat in that house.—
(Hear, hear.) He was then a warm defender of the constitution ell&
country, and he admired it still more when he compared it with that
which it was attempted to fabricate in its place; and when he fined
the highest ornaments of this country, and of many other countries
unite in opinion of its excellence, he felt his enthusiasm was just; sod
as 31inisters declared they would stand or fall by their Bill, he de-
clared be would stand or fall by the venerated Constitution of his
country.—(Hear, hear.).—The Judge Advocate had said in his admired
work, that " if the House of Commons were really to become the organ
of the public voice, the privileges of the other two branches of the con.
stitution were opposed to the will of the people, and their representa-
tives would be as dust in the ballance." He perfectly agreed in the
opinion, and was ,confident that if this Bill were passel, the next
popular excitement would sweep away that dust in the balance.—
(Hear, hear, hear.)—lf the supporters of this Bill were to pass it,
which God forbid, when they approached their too confiding Sove.
reign and obtained his signature, he might then see another writing on
the wall—" thy kingdom is departed from thee." (Cheers and laughter.)
If vested rights were to be.destroyed by this bill, what was to become
of vested wrongs? (Cheers.) What was to become of the property of
which the church had been the depositary ? He wished to preserve the
property of the supporters of the bill (laughter). If this great 'polls-
don was to take place, they might depend the rights and property of the
church and of corporations would soon follow. He hoped the House
would come to the decision of this momentous question, impressed with
the conviction, that they must answer for their vote to their consciences,
to their country, and to their God. (The honourable gentleman sat
down amidst the loudest cheering.)
Lord ALTHORP said the amendment was calculated to destroy
the bill (Hear.) If its object were not to destroy the bill, it was
calculated most seriously to alter be character ; and be it also remem-
bered, that it was only the that of • series of propositions to cripple the
measure when it got into the Committee, or so to aim it that the Mi.
Memo Gould no longer think of urging forward the measure. As to
the charges against the Hilit he -coeld not think the honourable
member was onions when be denounced it as spoliating England
hr the benefit of Ireland and Scotland: it might as well be said
that they were spolistieg Comma for the sake of Yorkshire. (Hear,
hear.) But &OM Mill had the preponderance of nearly five to
011116 Where, this was the draw from numbers ?He was asto-
Mid that the Vela imago in the HD were complained of by those win