Star.
London, England, 1823-04-18 00:00:00

he was jegiSed in asking as favour from the Hon.:
and talareserd Gentleman that he would state—
810)0GHAM.—.Not one wotd.
Mr. C. W. WYNN thought that it would not be
unbecoming in the Hon. Gentleman to state to the
House whether or not Ise had intended to use the word ;
in a personal sense? llowever, as this was declined,
he saw no other course. for the house to adopt than
to demand a pledge from tlio%e Gentlemen that the i
mattes should not be. carried further.
Mr. A BERCROM DIE said, the question before
the House was, that the !fight Hoe. Gentleman had I
committed a breach of or der ; and the met was,
whether he had made a sufficient explanatiou ? No
o;;e, he thought, could deem the explanation saris-
factory, and therefore the House would support its
()an Orders, especially as this matter was now de•
tached from all personal considerations
Mr. WILMOT .said, that although his personal
experience was not likely to give authority to his opi-
eiens, yet he trusted that they would have some
..ecight, from the very particular• attention he had
paid to the expressions which fell from the Hon. and
Learned Member. Ile hoped that the !louse would
n,-abe bound down by too strict a regard for techni-
calities, bat he hoped that the Hon. and Learned
Member would not object to state that he intended
nothing personal—(Cries of " No, no").---Fie (%Ir.
Wilmot) declared on his honour, that he thought the
espressioos personal to the highest degree, :tud he
world have called the Learned Gentleman to order
had there been time. He deprecated subjecting the
honout of any Member to mere formalities, and. there-
fore, left it to diet-louse. to decide who was the otfender.
Sir F. BURDETT said, if anything improper or
disorderly had fallen from his Learned Friend, he was
quite confident the Speaker would have checked him:
It appeared to him that he had used strong language
respecting a public functionary, merely as a public
functionary; on the contrary, the very interruption
of the Right lion. Gentleman was highly disorderly,
setting aside the words °used, which were greatly
offensive. If the Honourable Gentleman who spoke
last conceived his Learned Friend's language to be
offensive, he ought to have moved that his words be
taken &nen instantly.
Sir ROBERT WILSON thought this question in-
volved in difficulties, which it did not at first possess.
He thought that would be got over by the Right
Hon. Gentleman admitting that he took the words tie
politically, and not personally meant.
Mr. CANNING—" If I understand the gallant
General rightly, he desires that I should separate an
official from a personal imputation. I will distinctly
state, that, with respect to the House itself, 1 have
been guilty of a breach of its Orders, and submit my-
self, as I am bound to do, with readiness, and at the
same time with regret, to whatever it may decide.—
I will further state, that I certainly did understand
tit Learned Gentleman to apply the imputation to
nie personally. I understood him to impute to me the
having unbecominely submitted to some high per-
sonage, for the sake of coming into office, an impu-
tation which is not so much official as it is personal.
If that intention be disavowed, I am ready to retract:
if it be applied, will retract nothing !"
The SPEAKER said, it appeared to him they were
now to consider whether the Right lion. Member had
made sufficient apology for the breach of its Orders.
Urea, the House would, by its own power, enforce
the Orders, so as to prevent anything resulting from
what seemed now to be admitted to be a misunder-
standing. He understood the Right Honourable •Ese-
cretary to have retracted everything offensive to the
House. Several Members had declared the words
first used to have been personal, though others con-
sidered them not so. It would, therefore, be for the
House to declare, that it would not suffer the matter
to proceed farther.
Mr. BROUGH AM observed, that if be were to
codsult his own feelings, he should have wished, Le-
fore be entered on any explanation, to pass on to the
remainder of the sentence in which he had been in-
terrupted by the Right Honourable Gentlemen (gr.
Canning). Before he made any further observation*
he begged it to be remembered that the call for ex-
planation had not proceeded from him. The quese
trots then before the House was, that the Right Horn
Gentleman, who lead been stated by the highest au-
thority in that House as having been guilty of a vio-
laticn of its orders—a declaration unanimously ad-
mitted by every Gentleman who spoke, should be
taken into custody, and tha he (Mr. Brougham) who
was not even charged with any breach of its law,
should also undergo a similar punishment—(A laugh,
heir, hear). He opposed the first as well as the last
part of that proposition. He should neither assent
to its passing a vote of censure, or the commi tai to
custody, in consequence (of the language that had
been addressed to him—(Hear). With respect to thel
sentence ill which be had been interrupted, be very
alleclt regretted, he spoke it most sincerely, that
he was wholly incapable of repeating the words that
Ile bad made use of. lie recollected his meaning well,
and in the full recollection of that meaning, he could
" take upon himself to say, that he had not
teed words that participated both a little of a political
and personal application. He was not a man of that
nieechacaCter of expression as to precisely discriminate
the boundaries between these two terms. The meaning
however of his language he would state, and leave to
the House to judge of its interpretation. He we'll rectal-
ted that he bad used the words " poi i tical tergivesesa-
here" It was undoubtedly a strong expression, but it
wine which had been over and over again used in
tAdiscuosions of that House; he had certairily felt
4. Ugly on the subject on which he had been addrecs-
them, and he felt also as .he felt now, that there
ileter was Au occasikli. ou which that language was
rake accauet,e,ly pptied. Aux thstno „stroog feelings
"ere excited wholly by a reference-to the ,public and
Ptikell 'life of the Right Dion. Gentlernan ; but as to
,hilllahete character, good GOD ! he (Mr. Brougham)
.11_11, V/Othiag that
.dui not redound to that Right
44144(Mstati4 honopea.-4,4;(par, hAar,). lie had
lilliillhowledge of his private life, and that little ac-
cidentally. It was in that passage of This lite.horeto-
fixer when he agreed with him on the very question
of the Catholice of Ireland that he (Mr. Brougham)
tOtelittko that personal interceprae. It was not un-
....."4llLY•fue lump—not for factious—not for per-
purposes, that he had adverted-to the conduct
of the 'Right Hon. Gentleman.. It was because he
401h4401ad -that, from the very moment that he had
"sae a declaration, in his speeds at Liverpool, in
4`ll'ch he considered the cause of the Catholics here.

less, and that he trusted he should not see it agitated i
again, that lie felt called upon to a 9
that he used. At that moment 1
Gentleman
0f preparingperfe
c t
ot
for his
yet:lwyth.thaaerig lthebniegLiianua6gerd..
'notoriety,
to India.4
It was a matter
Chancellor of England was in • direct hostility not
alone to the question of the Catholics, hut to the
Right Honourable Gentleman-himself. When, there- ,
lore, he connected that declaration at Liverpool with
that hostility, and Lire
subsequent appointment of
that !nin Honourable
Gentleman to the office he
now held, he did form the opinion he had that night
expressed as to his change of sentiment. He had no.
right to judge of the motives of Ally man ; but when
he coupled that change of sentiment with the out-
ward and visible conduct—when he saw him at the
head of Foreign Affairs, arid „tat was uncomtitu-
,
n.
onally called the Manaeer of that House, he did
deeply deplore the change that had taken place; but
why ? not for party purposes, still less for personal
(Hear, heiro—but because he felt that such c(anitict
wai at once a death-blow to the hopes of the Ca-
tholics. He should have willingly said rnore;.but
the expressions which fell from the Right Honour-
able Gentleman, the second time he ad.iressed the
House, entirely closed his mouth from any further
explanation. In that address he r:newed, he re-
peate.l the disorderly expression; and whilst it re-
mained, no further explanation could be given.
Mr. PLUNKETT said a few words across the
table, which weic not heard in the Gallery. .
Mr. Secretary PEEL put it to the House, whether
it WAS not the sincere conviction of every man in that
House that a most satisfactory explanation was given,
calculated to allay any unpleasant feeling that might
have existed between his Right lion. Friend and the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman ? (Hear, hear.) With
respect to the circumstances out of which the misun-
derstanding arose, he would say that the facts must
have been misrepresented to the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman; for, if there was a man less likely to
truckle for office by unbecoming submissions to any
man, it WAS his Right Hon. Friend (Hear, hear.) After
the explanation that had been mutually given, he did
not see the necessity for continuing the motion.
Mr. BANKES met the suggestion, by most wil-
lingly withdrawing his motion (Hear,
Mr. TIERNEY hoped, after what had passed, that
the Right lion. Gentleman would assure the House
that he would think no more of the misunderstand-
ing (cheers.) .
Mr. CANNING.—I assure the Right lion. Gen-
tleman and the House that I shall think no more
of it—( Cheers.)
• Mr. BROUGHAM said, that he cordially acqui-
esced with the Right Hon. Gentleman. h was not
the first time he was embattled against bins, and he
assured biro, if ever there existed any remains of per-
soled ill-will against him, they existed no longer.
Here the matter dropped.
Mr. BROUGHAM then resumed his speech. He
said that, by abandoning the question to-night, to
use a homely expression, they would be playing with
edged tools. lle was ever ready to impute the
greatest degree ofindiscretion to the men who would
so demean themselves to the Catholics.. They have
alternately abused, deserted, and betrayed them; but
he would not'betray or abandon Ireland-1e would
not follow the 'example of bird, who, out of office,
would profess to be its warmest friend, and, in office,
would not endeavour to obtain its accomplishment.
Their conduct would shew them what they had to
expect at the other side, and ought to be a solemn ad-
vice to all the friends of that question. He would
entreat them to take example from the abolition of
the Slave Trade. His Hon. Friend the Member for
Ycnkshire (Mr. Wilberforce), who first introduced
that measure, was defeated day after day, and
still he returned to the charge ; though, as Mr.
Pitt wax not hearty in
:his support of- it, he was
advised to put it off to a more favourable period.—
lie admitted that it seas at length carried by a Mi-
nistry favourable to it, and that otherwise there would
have been little chance of its success. It his Hon.
Friend had not persevered in that measure, he doubted
if, in ten years after its introduction, it would have
been caried during the Administration of Lord Gien-
ville and Mr. Fox. By the union of the Ministry,
though it was not a Cabinet question, that detested
traffic sunk amid the general acclamations of the
House, when there were found but sixteen Members
who were tied to the rigging. His advice• to the
friends of the Catholic Question was, not to abandon
it to those whose sincerity they doubted, which was
the strongest ground for their keeping at their post.
It was a sure specimen of plundering when persons
went to pull down a house, half built, for the pur-
pose of destroying a rat: he spoke only of the house,
not of the vermin. On the other hand, if they con-
tinued to persevere in the structure, they would at
length succeed iii its completion.
Mr. HUME said, though he was no friend to se-
cession though it was no slight occasion which
would make him leave the House, yet he would
agree with the proposition of the Hon. Baronet. It
was a fixed principle with him never to desert his
post ; but no man ought to be a party to a system of
delusion. The Hon. Member here adverted to the
speeches vf several Members on the Catholic ques-
tion, to prove their inconsistency by accepting office.
Ministers were responsible for all the blood which.
would flow id consequence of such treatment. For
his part, he certainly would too longer be the dupe of
those who so often changed their opinions.
Mr. 4. MARTIN lot Galway) said that his Right
Hon. Friend the Attorney-General was placed in an
awkward situation. -Would he take upon himself the
awful responsibility of losing the question, when many
of the <ientlernee at the other sidethreawned to wlth-
draw, if it was agitated? Those Hon. Gentlemen, '
who, while they ackeowledged the vitality of this
question to Ireland, still withdrew reminded .him of
a man who, when challenged to fight a duel, shot
himself, and left a paper, in which he stated, us.an.
-excuse, that he shot himself, because, if he did not,
his adversary might. i
Mr. S. RICE said he was unwilling that an impu- ,
tation should be affixed to that side of the House of.
having deserted the Catholic question. He was red ,
Isolved to remain in his place to .the last, .small us ,
might be.the minority on his side.
Sir JOHN NEWPURT.observeJ, that hitherici.the.
Iquestion had always.gained grkauld by reAatd dis-
/ cussion. It ever there was,a time when.th e vital in-
terests of Ireland called urgently (or the passing cif
preuut.
the measure, it was the

Sir Re HERON expressed his regret that he could
not consult ie the.pbssrveticins of they non. Member
f4tYlltstatinaterASir E., Burdett) in this. particul or in-
stance,—The Petition was ordered to lie on the table,
and to be printed.' '
cetteeete., C L A IX% . •
!
At the moment when the SlT...faze called on Mr. PLUNEETT•
,several of the leading Meniers on the Oppositiun Brochea roie
an:l left the iloute„ among whom were Sir F. Burdett, the Earl •
of P...-ftem Lord relkstone, Edward Ellice, Esq. Ski R. IVilion.
J; C. liubbiouse, Mr. Home, Iron. it. G. Bennet. Sir 11. Fer.
!Taxon, Ur. Peter Moore, Lord F. Oillorne, Ur. S. aurett.
Mr. Thomas Creevey and3lr. Coke.
Air. I'LUNKETT rove and said, he had intended.
to present to the House that day a Petition on behalf'
of the Roman Catholics of Ireland, signed by a con-
siderable pOrtion of that body—considerable in num-
ber, in ploperty,'and station, to a degree that would
entitle' he person beating it to lay claim to speaking
the sense of the greet body of the Roman Catholics
of Ireland, but some mistake prevented it at present.
ile never in his life addressed the House under such
circumstances of extreme difficulty as he was placed
in at this'moment. Ile found he had to sustain the
claims . of the Catholics, not only against all those
who had been opposed to them, but against a consi-
.derable portion (.1 those who had ever l een looked
upon as their friends. if the cause sustained a loss
by the secession of those Honourable Members who
had retired, it had suffered a still greater loss by the
speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tie -
ney), who remained in the House with the intention
of giving his vote in its favour. That Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman had always been the itiend of
the Roman Catholic Claims; he had always acted
so, and he had no reason to doubt his sincerity.
But lie would say that the greatest enemy which th 4
cause ever had never gave it so deep a wound as had(
that ni,eht been inflicted upon it by its ancient friend.
It was in vain that the Right Honourable Gentleman.
and others endeavouted to throw on !inn the respon-
sibility of the failure of the question. The responsi-
bility of that failure lay upon those who had foretold
in such ominous tones its defeat, and treated•the sub-
ject as a farce and mockery, while they animadverted
on the personal demerits of its advocate. He (Mi.
Plunkett) had always looked on this question as too
high for party. He ever considered it as separate
horn all petty interests, and he was proud to say that
his coming over from one side of the House to the
other had not injured him in the opinion of the Ca-
tholics of Ireland as the advocate of their cause ; and
he could state, that it had not in the least effaced the
impressions of unalterable zeal with which he had
ever come forward to support their claims. The
Right Honourable Gentleman appeared to think it a
cause of censure that he had moved over from one
side of the House to the other. If his memory did
not misserve him, the Right Honourable Gentleman
had made a similar movement; he had performed
the figure of going over from one side of the House
to the other, and back again, quite as gracefully as
it could be done by any Honourable Member.—
But he supposed the Right Hon. Gentleman could
give a satisfactory explanation of his conduct, and
he assured him be could do the same ; for, although
he (Mr. Plunkett) had changed his side of the 11!m!.e,
he disdained the imputation of petty or mercenary
motives. He did not on coming over compromise
the principles which he had ever maintained, and he
felt.,,that the portion of that divided Cabinet who
were its friends, gave it their. emit e and sincere sup-
port. The Right Hon. Gentleman had done him
the honour of supposing that his accession to office
bad injured the Catholic cause. • Humble an indivi-
dual as he was, if he thought his accession to power
could have such an effect, the Right Hon. Gentleman
would never have seen him in that place. He had
made sacrifices to that question, and they did not
rest upon flourishing word; or theatrical declama-
tion. He had given sufficient proofs of his sincerity,
not to be put down by such insinuations. On the
present occasion, notwithstanding the blow uhich the
cause had experienced from the secession of some
Honourable Gentlemen, and thefuneral oration which
had been pronounced upon it by a Right Hon. Gen-
tleman before it was beard, he would not yield to the
suggestion to postpone it, because he felt that he should
be doing a great injury to it by such a concession.
He had formed his opinions at a time when he could
have been warped ' by no considerations of personal
interest, and his early convictions had been strength-
ened by the experience of thirty-five years. He did
not believe that the rejection of the measure would
lead to the separation of the two countries, or even
to any disturbances in Ireland. The Catholics were
grateful for the benefits they had received, and the
question was now one of sooner or later; for no doubt
could exist that it "'Auld ultimately be carried. It
was a grosi mistake to suppose that any indifference
on this subject existed in Ireland. The humblest
Catholic felt a deep interest in it. In 1821, the
sense of the House of Commons had been in favour
of the measure; and the principle had been again
fully recognized when the BiH of his Right lion.
Friend (Mr, Canning) had passed that House. Should
the Bill pass to morrow, the youngest man now
alive would not see twenty Catholic Members in
that House. Of that the Catholics were so well
persuaded, that they would have no objection to a
limitation of the number of Catholic Members.—
Should such a clause be moved and carried, he would
not on that account abandon the Bill. The Bills in
favour of the Catholics had never returned from the
other House, and it had been said the reason was
that concessions to the Catholics were contrary to the
princieies pf the Protestant Religion and those of the
ReVolution. But could it be supposed that the House
of Commons would be unmindful of those great prin-
ciples? He positively denied the justice of such an
inference. He denied that we were incurring such
risks, or that such a black lowering cloud was hover-
ing over the destinies of the country. Securities had
hitherto been the subject of much' difference and dis-
cussion. By some they hodbeen considered useless ;
by others, ahose which had been offered had been
deemed imufficient. For himself be had always been
decidedly of opinion that, some securities were abso-
' lutely and indispensably necessary ; So much so, in-
deed,
that he should object to passing any Bill with-
out them. Another objection to former' Bills was,-
that they did not contain any provision in favour
i of die PrOt4stela,DiSieSt*l; L but that they relieved
the -11.01124 n Cathulicss front si4abilities to which
1 :hey lett. the Protestant' Dissenters liable. ' lie was
ii glad .o 1 the yiresent opportialfftY us)* disabuse. the Orb-
' Fie mind on -the'' poi& . gothats..cOuld breitss ti,lic.

The tenancy 0f.t.4 thilsoeas to put the Roman Ca-
tholics
.on.the fisoting.iithe Protest at Ltseoters,
ao4 nothieg mot& r Warldoglitterl;ellnniVrit:d
n
thi.tpiMe Were in rtta__y, _rtg " eforriror
the Yrotelt!it ni
.!1,1
to sit 'iiith6.tt,u'se of Coditnons.- Ori l
itae Cu
he had as much right to sTtin tliat Ifetkeanitin:tite
!loose of in as the Member of tlie., ere:est:pit
EstabliShment. He would now call at:entioa ut
the H's use to she a!gutnent founded An the princiiles
• connected w:th 'thelteformation ; he admitted that
• from the Reformation must be justly dated the rights
and liberties of the people. At the rerio4 of the Al.
formation three principles were operative. The first
was the establishment of the Protestant religiiin; the.
sscen ! was, to put doSsn all relight's differing from
that of tl:e State, and forbidding; their public exer-
cise as contumacious ; the third wa.s., to give the St:4e
the poWer of distinguishing bet7e?f tooll=affected and
d;saffected subject:, in order to - prevent the latter
from being admitted into its high offices. Ot diose
principles the first was the most iniricia tants and was
inalienable. The second, after having beeo.contended
7vrainst for three hundred years; seas at length aban-
doned by the rep-al of the law against recusancy ;
the third was intended as a test th separate the
well-affected from the disaffected, 'rind for that
purpose the Oath of Septernacy was framed. What
the friends of emancipation sottp.,lit, was a quali-
fied Oath of Supremacy? such as might. be raked
by a conscientious Roman Catholic, ssho must
always acknowledge a certain degree of- spiritual
'authority in the head of his Church.— A proviso
in the Act of Elizabeth stated, that she being
'otherwise assured of the loyalty of the Lords Tem-
, potal, therefore the Oath of Suremacy -was not
AO be taken by them. That alone decided that the
oath was intended as a test of loyalty, not of religion,
because it allowed persons of whose loyalty the Queen
was otherwise assured, to sit in Parliament, and to
hold offire. To those documents, plainly sheaving
that the Catholics were not excluded as a sect, he
never heard an answer given. The history of the
times %hawed, that, from Elizabeth to James and
Charles the First, the Catholics sat in Parliament and
'held Assizes. It might be said, that the Catholics
were admitted to office by means of the dispensing
power. The fact, however, was, that they were out
excluded by law. By the Act of the 27th of Eliza-
beth, severe penalties were enacted against Jesuits
and-Priests. The Right lion. Gentleman then pro-
ceeded th state, that the law continued so till the time
of Charles the Second, when the Catholics were
excluded from office, and fiorn Parliament.—
New laws were then enacted, but the imputation as
that they were not disloyal, they were in tact too
loyal—the King was the pi ime traitor to the S;Ate—
new provisions were introduced, and the declaration
against the Mass and ti ansubstantiation.was framed—
it the oath of supremacy was in itself' sufficient, why
was the declaration ever introduced ? With ieseect
to the argument that had been urged against the
Catholics on the subject of oaths, it Is as not fair to-
wards the Catholics to suppose that they would be
willing to interfere with any new oath they might
take ss hen their delicacy alone prevented them inter-
fering with the old oath. The Right I-lon. Gentleman
then quoted the opinion of Lord But leigh, as to the
.binding nature of an oath on a conscientious Catholic ;
and which appeared to that great man to be sufficient.
If the House were to go bask to the eaths, they had
better go back to the penal laws, and if they would
go back to those laws, they had better not subdue
but exterminate—they had better sole with a rod of
iron—they had better not cut off the hair of the vic-
tim, because that might grow again, but cut off his
head, for that would not grow. There was no greater
mistake on this subject than that which supposed
that the settlement at the Revolution was conclusive.
The Revolution did not grant a pure and an enlight-
ened toleration; the lass of William did not grant
it ; on the contra, y, the laws of that pet iod exposed
the Ministers of the Catholic religion to seer pu-
nishment—prevented them from being schoolmasters
—attacked therighi ef property; both in England and
Ireland the Catholics were the victims of cruel persecu-
tion. The true foundation of religious liberty was
not laid until 1793. Many laws which existed pre-
viously to the Revolution had been retained, many's:if
those enacted since that period had been abolished;
in short, it appeared that, by a perverse kind of che-
mistry, everything good was extracted, while every
thing perverse and oppressive, as regarded the
man Catholics, was allowed to remain ; all wines
could adorn 'and dignify was removed, while every
thing was left which could degrade or debase.—
The Right Honourable Gentleman then adverted to
the opinion of Mr. Locke, which, he observed, could
only apply to individuals not good subjects. True, at
the Revolution the Irish were not good subjects: they
were ready to join any foreign eitemi; but would arty
one say that the Irish were nut now good subjects?
But if the Roman Catholics be considered to be rood
subjects, then be would ask what became of the au-
thority of Mr. Locke? It was Katural for the Bleat
men, who Watched as it were the cradle of the Con-
stitution, to feel considerable alarm at the conduct of
the Roman Catholics, and to consider them at; bad
subjects, in consequence of their teediness to join •a
foreign Power. It was true that the great men of
that period, such as Lord Clarendoa, Lord Somers,
Mr. Locke, &c. were decidedly hostile to the fCathe-
hes ; but then Gentlemen who referred to the writings
of those men should take into-consideration the cir-
cumstances of the times in which they wrote. *He
would next call the attention of the House.to the
doctrines held by Blackstone with 'aspect to the
'Catholics. That great waiter, speaking upon the
subject, • said, " if men qUarrel with the Eccle-
siastical establishment, the civil Magistrate has no-
thing to do with it ; unless their tenets and practice
are such as threaten ruin or disturbance to the State.
Ile is bound indeed to protect the Established Church;
and if this can be better effected by admitting none
but its genuine members to offices of trust and emo-
lument, he is certainty at liberty so* to do ; the dis-
posal of offices being ••niatterof form acid distinction.
But this point being once secured, all persecution,for
diversity of opinions, however ridiculous and absurd
they may be; is contrary to every ptinciple of sound
policy and civil freedom." This was 'exactly the
doctrine.upon which he now called upon the House
to act. The same author went so as follows As
to Papists,'what 'has been said of the ProtestA.teiiria
ntiDis-.
seeiers would
,hold equally
' toictalicinbr PrZvi....ied their :4444m —will's

. •

~d

founded only upon difference of opinion in re-
ligion, and their pdaciples did not also extend
to a subversion •of the civil government-(Neer).—
If once they could be brought to renounce the su-
premacy of the Pope, they might quietly enjoy their
seven sacraments, their purgatory and auricular con-
fession, their worship of reliques and images, nay,
even their transubstantiation. But while they ac-
knowledge a foreign Power superior to the sove-
reignty of the kingdom, they cannot complain if the
laws of that kingdom will not treat them upon the
footing of good subjects." So that if it appeared that
the Roman Catholics were at present good subjects,
as he contended they were, then there was at once an
end to all the arguments both of Mr. Locke and
Blackstone. Was tt not a formidable argument to
set up, that out of a population of 7,000,000 in Ire-
land, 5,000,000 were bad subjects, disaffected to
the Government, and undeserving of a participa-
tion in the Constitution ? If it could be shewn that
there were in Ireland 5,000,000 of men disaffected
to the Government, then he would say, that the
Might Honourable the Secretary for Foreign Affairs
would. be furnished with a stronger argument in
favour of neutrality than any which even his
(Mr. Canning's) own powerful and argumentative
mind had been able to urge—(Hear, hear, hear).—
If they were obliged to employ the forces of the coun-
try in watching over a disaffected population of five
millions in Ireland, then adieu to the power and glory
which had hitherto distinguished this country—
(Hear, hear, hear.) They might live on in a state of
feverish discontent and uncertainty; but it was ice.
possible that great or permanent good could be of--s
fected in such a State of things. The Right
and Learned Member went on to quote Lord Hard-
wicke
for the purpose of shewing that the real secu-
rity to the established Church of this country, was to
be found not in the Oath of Supremacy, not in the
Declaration, but in that wise and salutary law which
made the Crown of these realms essentially Protest-
ant—(Hear, hear). The measure which he proposed
only went to remove the Oath of Supremacy, and the
Declaration: Bet- there was a Scottish law which
vent to disable Catholics from being electors or
elected, in cln:osing or being elected to serve in cer-
tain public offices ; this law he believed was still un-
repealed, and he should feel happy if any lion. Re-
presentative of that country would propose a clause in
the Bill, for the repeal of this law of disqualification.
The IJon. Member concluded by observing, that the
opponents of this question were afraid of admitting
to a participation in the Constitution those men who
worshipped the same God, and believed in the same
Redeemer ; he feared the introduction of persons who
worshipped no God, and believed in no Redeemer.
They were afraid •to admit to an equality the loyal
and Constitutional Catholic he feared the introduc-
tion of the factious and disloyal sceptic; they opposed
the Catholic as idolatrous, in consequence of his
worship of the Virgin 'Mary ; he opposed the Atheist,
who, while he admitted the worship of the Virgin Mary
to be idolatrous, was of opinion that the worship of the
Deity himself was idolatrous also—(Hear, hear).—
The Right Honourable and Learned Member con-
cluded by moving, That this House do resolve into
a Committee of the whole House to consider of the
state of the laws by which oaths and declarations are
requited to be taken as a qiialification for the enjoy-
ment of office, or the ex.nci,e of civil functions, so
far as regards his Majests's Roman Catholic subjects,
and whether it is expedient, and in what manner, to
a!ter and modify the same, and subject to what pro+
visions and regulations."
On the question being put from the Chair,
Mr. BANK ES (of Cambridge) opposed the motion.
Mr. %V. BECHER rose amidst loud cries of " ad-
journ, adjourn." He supported the Motion upon the
ground of its being the only measure which could
give permanent peace and tranquillity to Ireland—.
(Cries of adjourn, adjourn).
Mr. LA M BTON said, his only object in rising was
to prevent his constituents and the country generally
from mistaking the motives which actuated him in
giving his vote against the present motion, not in
consequence of any change of opinion upon this point,
but because he conceived, from the manner in which
tire question was brought forward by the Right Ho-
nourable the Attorney•Gcneral for Ireland, that it
was a gross deception upon the Roman Catholics,
and one to which be never would accede—(Hear,
hear!) mixed with loud and repeated cries of " Ques-
tion, question !"—,. Adjourn, adjourn !"—" Clear the
Gallery r &c.
The House then divided on the motion, that this question be
adjourned till this day. When there appeared'
Foe the adjournment of the question - -
Against it
Majority

. . ---
The adjournment of the house was then moved, when the
numbers were

154
292.
- •--1,511

For the adjournment - - - .113
Against it . • - - 111
Majority .- - —202
And at Half-past One o'Clock the House adjourned.
. By this decision the question has been got rid of, but may be
brought fot ward again this Session.

According to the Return made to the House of
Commons of the Salaries and contingent Expenses
of the Water Guard and Officers and men employed
in the boats for the prevention of smuggling in
Great Britain and Ireland, from the sth of January,
1822, to the sth of January, 1823, the amount of the
said expenses, so far as attaches to the Customs of
Great Britain, is £140,414. 15s. Sid.
The Assessors of Taxes are directed not to proceed
according to the printed instructions delivered to
them a few days since, but wait till they receive
further information, ,spewing what reductions are to
be made according to the late Act.
A great sensation seems to be excited amongst the
Civilians in Doctors Commons, respecting the Memorial pre-
sented to the Judge on the last Arthes Court-day, by the Proctor
who was suspended from his practice some short time back, which
will be supported by Dr. Lusifixoros, early on Monday morning
next, in the Arches Court, College-square.

ASOTHEIL ILXIZIOOTZ COACH ROBUST or BANK Nome.—Mon-,
day, Mr. HADWIW, a Quaker, of Liverpool, transmitted two MOW
send and niorty-froposoids of old Xi Bank of England notes by
the coach, addirested to an eminent druggist in Lombard-street,
with the ciirectioef upon them, " Glass, this side to be kept upper-
most ;" to be forwarded to a respectable banking-house in the
same street. Wednesday the parcel arrived at the druggist's, and
was sent to the banking firm, and placed in the country office.
On opening the package, the clerk was astonished to find the ex-
pected Bank notes metamorphosed into a collection of waste
paper of every description. Notice was instantly sent to the
Police-officers at Bow-sweet ; but no clue could be discovered of
the robbery.

~- _.r

THE EVIEN'ING

LONDON:

FRIDAY, APRIL 18, 1823.
THE FUNDS.

STOCK EXCHANGE, TWELVE O'CLOCK.
Consols opened this morning at-761 k, at which price they re-
main steady, with little business doing.
FOREIGN FUNDS.
An Express from Boris brings the French Funds of Wedness
day at 84f. 60c. Spanish Bonds 34k.
Spanish Bonds experienced a depression this morning, at one
period they were done at 28k, 29*, 1.
' Cftrent Prices :—Chilian 68, New Spanish 29k, New Prus-
sia % 80i, Old 82, Russian 75, Danish Bs, Neapolitan 72, Colom-
bian 64.

PRICE OF STOCKS AT ONE O'CLOCK.
Bank Stock 210 211 2101,4
3 per Cent. Reduced, 75% % % ex. div.
3 per Cent. Consols 76% 44 1/4
31,4 per Cts. 88-4 per Cts. Old, 94% Vs 1/4 ex. d.
4 per Cents. New, 96% 97.
Bank Long Annuities 19 7-16 1/2 ex div.
Exchequer Bills of £l,OOO, 15s. lGs.
Ditto small 15s. 16s..—Bauk for May 211
Consols for May 76% %

The proceedings, of the House of Commons last
night will be found altogether of a most unpleasant,
and we fear, not very honourable cast. The question
for debate was that of Catholic Emancipation ; and
',this, one might have supposed, possessed sufficient im-
portance to have been seriously and solemnly dis-
cussed. Not so, however, thought certain leading
Members of Opposition, who so managed matters
that the better part of that time which ought to have
been devoted to the cause of millions of their suffering
fellow-subjects, was occupied in party and personal
bickerings, and the minds of all utterly unfitted
fur anything like fair and dispassionate enquiry.—
The point on which this brawl (for it can be termed
nothing else) turned, was the personal consistency of
Mr. PLUNKETT and Mr. CANNING in accepting of-
fice, while they entertain the sentiments which they
do in favour of Catholic Emancipation. That pre-
eminent railer, Mr. BROUGHAM, went to such lengths
in his abuse of Mr. CANNING, for " truckling," as he
termed it, to the LORI) CHANCELLOR on the Catholic
Question, thut the Right Honourable Secretary felt
obliged to tell him that 11 had said what was "false."
Mr. BROUGHAM, after an agitated word or two, sat
down; and the SPEAKER claimed the attention 'of the
House, saying they had heard the words used by the
Right Hon. Secretary, and that he waited fur his expla-
nation. M E. CANNING again rose, and with great feeling
declared that be regretted and retracted the words he
had used as regarded the House, of whose rules they
were undoubtedly a violation, but that rio considera-
tion on earth could induce him to retract the sentiment.
The anxiety which this reiteration of the denial pro-
duced in the friends of both the parties may be easily
conceived : but difficult as it may seem to have been,
a way wasat length found out of enabling both Gentle-
men to assure the House that they " would think no
more of it." We do not like to venture on the ex-
pression of the sentirrumts which we ourselves enter-
tain of this incident, and shall therefore content our-
selves with repeating to our Readers the opinion
_which is given of it by a respectable advocate of
these AVhig tacticians themselves. "We own," says
the British Press, " we thought Mr. BROUGHAM'S
invective too personal and unprovoked : few Minis-
ters, when attacked in such a way, can sit with the
imperturbable coolness which distinguished -the late
Lord LONDONDERRY. Mr. CANNING'S first reply was
certainly violent and hasty, but his subsequent con-
duct was firm and most honourable. Contests of this
painful description are calculated greatly to contract,
the fair freedom of debate, and should be discouraged
as much as possible. Fortunately for the character
of that great assembly, and the interests of its consti-
tuents, it ended last night amicably, but a few more
contests of the same sort would give it the air of the
French Chamber."
Sir Faants BuanErr was nearly as vituperative
as Mr.llßovottam. lle declared, that to go into a
serious debate on • the Catholic question, while the
Cabinet continued to be composed of persons differ-
ing in opioion upon it, was all'a mockery ; and that
he, for one, would lend no countenance to it by his
presence. When Mr. PLUNKLTT rose to open the
debate, the Honourable Baronet accordingly with-
drew, and was followed by some dozen Members,
who concurred with him is opinion that this was the
best way of performing their duty to their constituents
and the country !

How such a secession can be reconciled to the
slightest notions .of constitutional propriety, we
confess ourselves quite at a loss to conceive.
It seems to us, that upon theory nothing can
justify any considerable part of the Legislature
in formally abandoning their posts, but such a
total disruption of all the bonds of society as ac-
tually places a country in a state of revolution. It
is quite clear that, by the ancient practice of the
House of Commons, deserting the duties of the
House was held to be an offence of the highest na-
ture, punishable even with expulsion.
_ _

After such exhibitions of feeling as these, the de-
bate, as might be expected, went off tamely enough.
Mr. PLunnwrt's was the only speech of any conse-
quence delivered; and the question was at length
got rid of by a resolution for adjourning the House.
We think that the Catholics, and all Who' are friendly

~'

'to the Catholic cause, can be at no Liss to &wide to
athdlst the blame of this most abortive of all the
efforts in its behalf is in justice to be ascribed.
We have but a word or two to mid on the source
of all this irritation—the point of consistency. For
ourselves, we cannot possibly see how it is better fi r
the Catholic cause to have every Member of the Ca-
binet against it, than only a few; neither do we ima-
gine, friends as we are to Catholic Emancipation,
that it is at all a question of that nature which should
prevent any of its most conscientious friends from
co-operating in other matters with individuals
who may be as conscientiously opposed to it.—
The offence which such a junction gives seems to'
consist in its being so unparty like ; but this is a
point of view in which we are sure it can be regarded
only with saCsfaction by all the sound and impartial
part of the nation.

Accounts from the French army to the 15th inst.
received via Paris, state that St. Sebastian and Pam-
peluna are in a much better state of defence than was
expected ; and that this circumstance, coupled with the
skilful Generalship of MINA, who masks his opera-
tions, renders great caution on the part of the French
Commanders necessary, and the march of the troops
much less rapid than was anticipated.

A Mail from Lisbon arrived this forenoon, with
papers to the 6th inst. The information they bring
is highly satisfactory.

LISBON, APRIL 2.

The last dispatches of General Rego are dated the
29th at night : he does not mention anything of im-
portance, except that the factious are feu eating, and
that he, having divided the forces under his com-
mand into three brigades, was marching in pursuit
of the enemy, and would leave Amarante on the
30th, proceeding by Campea to Villa Real. Ac-
cording to private accounts, Antonio de Silviera was
at MOnCOTOO ; and, conshiering the direction taken
by the factious in their retreat, it seems to be their
intention to concentrate themselves in Mtrandella.

I