Star.
London, England, 1813-07-09 00:00:00

that it was sunk in the Greenwich fund, the interest
divided into pensions to meritorious seamen, and the
capital reserved to meet the future claims which
might be made by the heirs of the deceased, when-
ever they should be preferred—(Hear, hear l) He
was glad, on this occasion, to see a Noble Lord,
(Lord Cochrane) in his place, because he was about
to give him an opportunity Of 'redeeming the pledge
which he had given in his answer to the speech of
that Noble Lord on a late evening—(Hear, hear).--
had then said, that in so widely extended a ser-
vice,
it was not possible to refer at once to every in-
sulated fact which might be stated in that House.
The number of letters which he daily received was
upon an average about 400, which were answered by
the next post, if the circumstances to which they re-
ferred were within the cognizance of the Admiralty.
If they were not, they were immediately transmitted
to the different public Boards to which they respec-
tively belonged. He had, however, since enquired
into all the cases mentioned, and was now enabled
to contradict them all, in point of fact, as he had
before done upon principle—(Mar.) As to Wm.
Ford, who, the Noble Lord said, had been obliged
to pay £BO to procure his discharge from harbour-
duty, he had to state these circumstances :—He was
a gunner's mate on board the Im',erieuse, and had
never beer. sent to harbour-duty, and had never paid
eighty pounds for his discharge—(Hear, hear, hear).
—He had received a letter from his wife some time
ago, informing him that the Imperieute had arrived
at Portsmouth, and requesting that her petition for
her husband's discharge might be complied w;th as
soon as she had procured the substitutes. The pe-
tition was granted, and no money was paid. The
Noble Lord had betrayed some ignorance as a Cap-
tain in the Navy, of the origin of the practice of taking
money for discharges ; the object of which was to pre-
vent the men from becoming the dupes of crimps.—
It did not exist till 1810, although the Noble Lord
had complained of its operation in 1809. Ford's
wile was employed three months among those crimps
before she succeeded, during which time Ford was on
board the flag ship, Salvador del Mundo, in order to
be discharged, and in due time was discharged ac-
cordingly. The second case was that of Samuel
Milton, the Noble Lord's' own- coxswain, and a
Greene ich pensioner, stated to be invalided for har-
bour duty. [Lord Cochrane said, No !] Mr. Croker
appealed to the douse, whether the whole of the
Noble Lord's statement and course of argumnt did
not imply, that to be exemptcd from harbour-duty
this man had paid a€Bo ? (Mar, hear.) Samuel
Milton was an able ~:eatnan on beard the Imperieuse;
he had been discharged in ISO 9 ; and in 1811, by a
forged ccitificate, tilt ough the means of one of the
Honourable Baronet's lower clerks, he meant Mr.
Gawler, he had obtained a pension of £l2 per annum.
( Hear, her.) This had, since his misconduct, been
discovered, and taken away, and all the charges of
oppression and neglect against the Admiralty resol-
vs d themselves into this, that they had erred on the
:ade t,l indoh,:,ence and given for .t short time £l2 a-
I ycat to an undeserving object. (Hear.) As to the
case of Farb!y, the Noble Lord's statement was just
as correct as it was in the particulars to which he had
already adverted, that is, utterly destitute of any
foundation in fact. ( Hear, hear.) The man had
been discharged into Plymouth Hospital on account
of a severe malady, and on his recovery, discharged
entirely froni the service without any payment what-
ever. (Hear, hear) The Noble Lord had said, that
he had been himself obliged to discharge sixty men
upon his own responsibility, when he commanded the
Pallas. This did not appear by the books of that
ship, and he could not suppose that the Noble Lord
had falsified them, although he had been told that
the Noble Lord's practice was a little inaccerate,and
that he had been in the habit of taking able men
wherever he could find them, not as supernumeraries,
but substitutes. The Noble Lord seemed to signify
dissent, he might perhaps say, that he sent the men
whom he discharged from bis own ship into others,
but he had on a late occasion declared, that they
were discharged as utterly unserviceable. Now, by
the books of the Pallas, it appeared, that during the
Noble Lord's command, only tilteen men were dis-
charged by order of the Admiralty for different causes.
The Noble Lord had complained of borough interest
—had that bad any weight with the late appointment
of the Noble Lord himself, with the Lieutenant who
had been made a Commander, contrary to the regu-
lations upon his (Lord Cochrane's) special recom-
mendation, nr with the Midshipman, who, upon the
same recommendation, had been made a Lieutenant ?
In turning to the Noble Lord's observations on the
Macedonia, he had discovered fresh reason for asto-
nishment that the Noble Lord should uniformly steer
so clear of every thing that resembled fact. (A laugh.)
He had received that day the sentence of the Court-
Martial upon the Captain and crew of the Macedo-
nia, which expressed the highest admiration of the
courage, coolness, and resolution, with which Capt.
Cardan had fought his vessel ; and whilst the Court
honourably acquitted Captain Cardan, felt it, at the'
same time, a duty to bear the fullest testimony to
the zealous exertions of the First Lieutenant, and to
the assistance which had been given by the other
officers and crew to their Captain, in that arduous
contest, against a greatly superior force; and con-
cluded by observing, that their conduct was as ho-
nourable to themselves as to the general discipline of
the ship.—(Hear, hear.).L--He had received another'
letter by that morning's mail, as it were by the aid
of some divinity unpropitious to the Noble Lord,
from Captain Cardan himself, informing him that
his men, notwithstanding the insidious means em-
ployed to seduce them, had all remained faithful to
their allegiance, and refused to enter into the service
of the enemy.—(Hear, hear.)--The Noble Lord,
however, was yet more unfortunate. As he was on
his way to the House, he met Captain Broke, who
had just arrived in town, and received from him
some particulars relative to the late action, which he
hoped it would not be considered impertinent to
mention in the House.—(Hear, hear.)—Of all the
naval actions, then, which had ever been fought
between single frigates, this was, in his opinion, the
most brilliant. Captain Broke, who had been on
the American station for a considerable period, and
had taken several prizes, stink them, in order to
keep his ship's company in a condition fit for meet. 11
ing the enemy ; sacrificing; without hesitation, his
personal interest to the honour and advantage of
his country. With great judgment, he sailed to
protect 'the Jamaica Convoy, and to search for

Commodore Rodgers.—He found them both ; and
if the triumph over the . latter was still deferred, he
had been indebted for his safety to the wiods alone.
The American frigate which he had now taken was
captured in fifteen minutes.--(Hear, sear, hear J.—
gaptain Broke was wounded—and where ? on the
,enemy's deck, leading on his men to storm her fore-
castle.—(Hear, /rear).—The battle was fought with
no other ship in sight ; the American came out of
port, for the purpose of fighting, in full confidence,
with all her sails set. She had 16 guns and 110 men
more than the Shannon, mounting 44, with 440
men on board. They came side by side, and nothing
,could exceed the tremendous precision of the broad-
sides. Captain Broke perceived that the enemy's
men flinched.from their guns; he called instantly for
the boarders,-and headed them himself ; although
cut down with a sabre on the deck of the Chesapeake,
she was taken in three minutes alterwards.—(Hear,
shear).—lt was a beautiful sight, to use Captain
Broke's expression, to see the two ships sail away,
after the American had struck, with all their masts
and rigging standing, not a sail or a rope injured,
and wearing the appearance of having been engaged
in firing only a friendly salute. He mentioned these
circumstances, because they came so opportunely to
meet the unwarranted assertions of the Noble Lord,
as to the disheartened spirit and depressed condition
of British seamen.--(Hear, hear).--He believed,
however, that there never passed a day which did
not afford not precisely similar, but quite sufficient
evidence to refute such statements and such observa-
tions as those of the Noble Lord. He had to beg
pardon for so long detaining the House, and con-
cluded by saying, that as he thought the Honourable
Baronet's motion, to say the least of it, unnecessary,
he should certainly oppose it. —.( Loud cheering).
Lord COCHRANE denied having cast any im-
putation on the officers or men of the Macedonian ;
and be thought, that the Hon. Secretary, by owning
that men were not discharged even after the longest
period of set vice without finding substitutes, had
made good what he had advanced, that they were
obliged to pay in some shape or other. The Noble
Lord then produced a letter he had that morning re-
ceived from a sailor's wile, stating, that her husband,
I after spending one hundred pounds to procure substi-
tutes, and having obtained his discharge, had been
impressed again. All those facts were substantially
correct; and he cou!d prove it at the Bar of that
House. The letter of this poor woman went on to
state, " that. her husband bad made one more voyage
in the East India Company's service, in the Bengal,
not supposing, as he had a certificate of discharge,
that he was liable to impressment. He had, how-
-1 ever, been taken from on board that vessel, and was
at present serving in the Hecate frigate." The writer
declared that she did not possess the means of pur-
chasing a single loaf of bread ; and she must have
perished had not Mrs. Cavendish Brad.rha.,v heard of
her situation, and afforded her some pecuniary relief,
at the same time taking her eldest dauglrer into her
own service. If the Right Hon. Secretary of the
Admiralty possessed a spark of humanity, he must
feel for an unfortunate wile and mother, plunged into
such deep digress. The poor woman concluded by
beseeching him to espouse her cause, and to use his
exertions in procuring the release of her husband ;
surely this was not a situation in which their brave
seamen should be placed. There ought to be a li-
mited period assigned for their service. They ought
not to be subjected to the caprice of the Board of
Admiralty, or of any other set of men. He thought
it was extraordinary that he should have been attacked
in such an unwarrantable manner, when he could
prove, beyond a doubt, all the material facts of the
cases he had stated. (Hear, hear.)—He repeated, that
he could prove all the material facts. With respect
to the insinuation, that he had falsified the ship's
books, he peremptorily denied that lie had ever done
so. The case to which he alluded was this :—His
ship having been improperly manned originally, he
took the first opportunity of discharging those men,
who did not appear to be efficient. He did not
send them away, as the Hon. Gentleman supposed,
when he had procured superriumeraries, but they
were regularly ordered on board the Salvador del
Mundo. With respect to the case of Lieut. Urry
Johnson, it was necessary to observe, that he was
Ithe only Lieutenant on board his ( Lord Cochrane's)
vessel, when he went to Basque Roads—in conse-
quence, he conducted one of the fire-ships, and exe.
cuted the duty allotted to him in a most officer-like
manner. Now, previote-ly to that expedition, Lord
Mulgrave informed him, th It it was intended to pro-
' mote, without reservation, those officers who were en-
gaged in it, which was certainly a very proper deter-
mination. In consequence, however, of the reports,
which had gone forth, relative to his (Lord Co-
chrane's) conduct at Basque Roads, after he had been
honoured with the Red Ribbon, which Ministers would
most willingly haie taken from him subsequently, con-
siderable displeasure was manifested against him.—
They could not get him under their claw, but they
shewed their feelings by keeping Mr. Johnson at the
bottom of the list of those who were then promoteo,
although lie should have stood at the lead of it.—
As to Lieutenant isson, he had never seen him but
three times on board the ship. He recommended
him, amongst others, who had behaved gallantly at
IBasque Roads ; but he had not mentioned those wire
conducted themselves badly, and who were, notwith-
standing, promoted. After all that had been said b)
the Right HonourableGentleman, he contended that
his principal points remained untouched. Neither
the improper length of service—the grievance t I har-
bour duty—or the 15 per cent. additional on sleos—
had been justified. Had the late Lord Melville re-
mained a few years longer at the head of the Adm:-
ralty, he would have redressed those grievances ; and
he hoped the son of that Nobleman would examine
the records which he had left behind him, which, be
was convinced, would afford him a vast body of use-
ful information. The situation of the army and navy
was extremely different at present. The army, in all
branches, was gnarly ameliorated. Every thing was
there conducted with energy—the commanding offi-
cers were men of ability—and the good effects ot the
system were felt in every regiment. Now, could they
expect, it officers were appointed merely by Parliamen-
tary influence, that such a result would be produced ?
Men should not be sent to command in one ships,
either because they bad interest with the Lords of the
Admiralty—because they had influence in any bn.
rough—or because they delivered ahy p articular opi-
nions in that House. In the course ot his speech4ge

had not mentioned any officer in terms of disrespect,
nor had he thrown any slur on the character of Lri.
tish seamen. He thought, however, that trifles were
attended to on board our ships, instead of matters of
importance. The seamen were obliged to employ
themselves in polishing crow-bars and monkey-tails,
instead of being exercised at the small arms and great
guns. They were obliged at day-light, every morn-
ing, to go down or. their knees, to scrub the ship
with holytone: and hand-Las, by the order of those j
young gentlemen who were too frequently appointed
by the weight of Parliament influence, and who were
desirous of making the ship look like a toy-shop.—
These were the grievances of which he complained,
and which Parliament ought, in his opinion, to inter-
fere in rectifying.
Mr. CROKER, in explanation, said, the Noble
Lord had said all his material facts were right; he
would not allow him so to escape. The Noble Lord
had pointed out certain cases, these cases he (Mr.
Croker) had answered ; and if the Noble Lord wished
to point out other cases, he would attend to his com-
mands, and had no doubt he should be able to an.
swer them equally to the Noble Lords satisfaction as
he had done those already adduced. He was sur-
prised that the Noble Lord should have asserted that,
from the spite to him, Lieutenant Lirry Johnson had t
been kept at the bottom of the list. Surely the Noble
Lord must have recollected, that he stated the ob-
jection made to the promotion of Lieutenant Johnson,
to have been, that he had not served the regular
number of years. And he also observed, that art
Order in Council had been procured, to supersede the
law in that particular instance. Of coursey Lieute-
nant Johnson might still remain junior to those CM- #
cers on the list who had served for a greater length
of time.

Lord COCHRANE said, the conduct which was
manifested towards Lieutenant Johnson, was a part
of a regular system ; and, in proof of this, he in.
stanced the cases of two of his First Lieutenants, one
of whom had captured a vessel greatly superior to
that which he Commanded, and the other, 'with a
single boat's crew, had made prize of a large ship—
yet neither of them was promoted. But, when the
First Lieutenant of Sir Samuel Rood, with the boats
of the entire fleet, had captured a vessel, he was im-
mediately promoted by the Admiralty.
Mr. Alderman ATKINS spoke in high terms of
the conduct of the Noble Lord as a Naval Officer,
but expressed his indignation at his being so misled
as to bring before that Honse, matters which had a
tendency to render our seamen dissatisfied. He
thought the Secretary to the Admiralty had com-
pletely answered all that had been urged. As a ship.
owner, he knew that a clean ship was as desirable as
a clean house, and that the use of the holy-stones
might be very requisite. As to the loss of physical.
powers, an instance came recently before him as a
Magistrate, of a sailor, who had left die service, and
was robbed of his watch. The tar seized the robber,
and said he had grappled with him, so that the thief
,could not get away from him. Such was the lass
of physical powers !—(a laugh;.—The Noble Lord
could do great service to his country in his profes-
sion ; but did not act the same part in the character
of a Senator.

Lord COCHRANE appealed to the Speaker, ois .
the accusation made against him of exciting dissatis-
faction in the navy.
The SPEAKER said, that he understood the ex-
pressions to mean, that the Noble Lord's line of ar-
gument had a tendency to that effect ; but not that
they were so intended.
Mr,P,lderman AT K INS corroborated the Speaker's
interpretation of the meaning of the expressions he '
had used.

Mr. CROKER said, that two years ago the Admi.
ratty had considered the subject of abuses respecting
the desire of cleanliness on board ships. He could
assure the House that this matter had received unre,
milting attention.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT complimented Lord
Cochrane for his exertions to benefit a service of tit hich
he was so bright aft ornament. What he had stated
of buses in the Navy, was done with the hope they
would be corrected. The seamen could not have a
more proper advocate; and if he was attended to.
instead of dissatisfaction, the result wouk! be edv,:n•
tage and justice to the navy. What improper motive '
could possibly be assigned to the Noble Lord ? Every
man must feel and acknowledge the importance oi
• the services of Captain Broke ; particularly under
the present circumstances : but where all concurred t
in the same feeling, it was not necessary for every
person to take up the time of the House in praising
undifputed merits. When it was found, that after
long service, the seaman forgot every thing but his
duty to his country, a strong reason was afforded for
looking into his situation. I'he Hon. Secretary had
made an eloquent eulogium on the navy ; but yet he
refused a motion, the object of which was to do good
to the relatives ef our brave seamen. Economy was
an excellent thing ; but in such cases as this, a too
close attention to it might be the worst of practice.--
By greater liberality, bounty-money might be reduced,
and, perhaps, the practice of impressthent might be
got rid of ; for its necessity seemed only to exist, br-
cause we did nbt give adequate rewards. He (Sir
Francis Burdett) was no patronizer of such misplaced
(economy. It was inconsistent with the justice and
the character of the country, to dole out such miser-
able pittances to brave men. Th,:re might be unme-
rited pensions and sinecures, the retaining of which
prevented the just discharge nt well-founded °Nip- 1
It might be impossible to reward the deser
ring, while a corrupt Borough influence prevailed.
Let that be stopped, and some enlargement made tot
the 'sake of justice, and the nation would :imp the
benefit.

The division being called for, no A•es went mt •
there were 63 Members remaining in the licust:.—
The motion was consequently lest.

FINANCE.
On the re-opening of the Gallery, Mr. Throw:
was proposing to put off the cost.sideration • i tit Rr.
solutions forfora fortntgly, with the view'n: tal.;,ig the
up next Session, which was agree,' to.

Cotb AFFM
Mr. R. THORNTON hope'd the 2.iscus6-in would
not be precipitated, as the Propricu-rs h.,' not
time to consiAer of the 13111.

Lord CASTLERE AGIT had n 1 thject:on, if ic
were unArrsteod that it should be 'Ole first
to-morrow.
Mr. TIERNEY did tvA ice how the C.,utt P,T:-