Star.
London, England, 1822-03-14 00:00:00

...managed At salary-of the
fixed by Act.of Parliament in 1785, at a time when

every attention was paid to measures of economy.--
Mr. Burke, at that time, proposed no alteration of
the office; for his objections were principally to the of-
fic eof Third Secretary of State and the Board of Trade.
Considering alt these circumstances, the antiquity of,
the office, the increase of its duties, the recommenda-
tion of the Committees, and the fact of Mr. Burke
having never ititerfered or suggested an interference,
with the office, be came to a conclusion different from

that of his lion. Friend, and could not admit that the
office was either useless or inefficient. Having offered
these observation 3 on the first part of .the subject, he
came to the other with considerable diffidence, for he

was aware of its magnitude. He knew how difficult
it was to define the just influence of the Crown.
Without attempting such a definition, he might ob-
serve that the progress of intelligence among the
people had occasioned so considerable a deference to
public opinion in the Executive Department of the
State, that such a definition was less necessary than

formerly. But when he considered this office with
reference to its antiquity and its increased duties, he
could not bring himself to say that it formed a source
of unjust influence. While upon this part of the sub-
ject, he could not but notice the surprising doctrines
he had lately heard broached in that House respect-
ing the mode of carrying on Government. An Hon.
Member had stated that he had been compelled to
discharge four of his clerks; and thence had reasoned
the necessity of a corresponding reduction in the va-
rious Departments of the Government. He (Mr. Peel)
could never admit the justice of an analogy between
the affairs of a great country and those of a mercan-
tile individual, however respectable. He had heard
an Hon. Member compare the Officers oldie Govern-
'spent to' a Corporation, for dividing profit among
themselves, while that Hon. Member thewed a studied
forgetfulness of the desire which had been manifested
by those very Officers fin- the abolition of sinecures.
The argument of that Honourable Member appeared
to be that public services should be performed for
nothing; an argument inconsistent alike with the
principles of the House, and with those adopted by
Mr. Burke, upon questions of Reform and Economy.
Mr. Burke had said that he would not accept of gra-
tuitous public services; and that country which looked
for so much restrictive virtue and romantic genero-
sity in its servants, would find itself miserably duped
in the end. lie was satisfied that Parliament Would
take a different turn from that which had been recom-
mended by the cases of the HonourableMembers op-
posite ; and he was persuaded that it would not over-
look the considerations which presented themselves
' upon a view of the present question. There were
minor considerations, however, which should not be
undervalued. Much had been urged on the score
of influence ; but those who understood the nature
of public affairs were aware that the great increase
of public business had considerably diminished the
value of official influence. There were few high offices
Iwhich did not require almost the undivided attention
of the holders of them, either in office or in Parliament.
It was true that they still remained objects, though
diminished ones, of honourable ambition ; but be re-
peated, their influence had been of late years very
much diminished. He would remind the House,
eroogli the fact was not thought of any consequence
by the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, that in' the
Treasury the number of papers demanding official
examination had increased eight-fold since the year
1793 ; the number in that year being 3000, and at
present 23,000. He mentioned the Treasury merelyl
for example, as the increase in the business of the
other great offices was in about the same proportion.
In conclusion, he declared that he could not conceive
any question to be of more importance than the pre-
sent. It was not with regard to the influence of the
Crown that he particularly thought so; nor did he
regard it as a question of safety ; for of course the
actual safety of the country did not depend upon the
dismissing or retaining one of the Postmasters-Gene-
ral. But he considered it as a question affecting the
real substantial interests of the nation ; for he believed,
arid he trusted the House would bear in mind, that
if they diminished this office, the principle upon whirl)
they did so would apply with such increased force to
other offices, that it would be impossible to say where
that principle should find its limit. He could for
himself declare, that fearless of all imputation on his
hnotives, he should, upon conscientious grounds,'
five his decided negative to the motion.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH rose and said, that if
it were not for the introduction of extraneous topics,
he had not intended to trouble the Houle this even.
ing, but merely meant to give a silent vote in favour'
of the Noble Loid's motion. but there were other
questions conncted with that motion, which, as he
should shew bj and bye, was really the only subject
fur consideration tonight; and these questions to
volviug novelties more dangerous and alarming to the
constitutional liberty of England, tbau any be had ever
heard in the country, much lett in any intelligent and,
•
independent assembly, that he Could not forbear frail'
taking notice of them. These novelties were indeed
such as, according to the language of Gentlenss
on the other side, to apply to the very root of thn
Constitution— ( Applaisse ).—lt was; indeed, for the
very first time alleged; that it was necessary • to the
stability. and influence of the Crown, to preserve use-
less offices-{Hear, hear).—An }lon, Gentleman had
argued, that useless offices were only to be regarded
is sinecures tar as pensions, fbr the servants of the
Crown, which ought now be disturbed; and for this

the
yea?: ago, that several'oirsces,f.r b"Pened
which • were very an•
nent indeed, which were as ancient as the plantar

genets, were abolished •in 1812 and 1813, •beesthe
from eircumstances:those offices bad become obinlete.
and superannuated. Upon what principle, •
,then)
should the office of second Postmaster-General be
maintained ? &viral of the offices to which he had
alluded had existed in 1892, as well as that of •the
second Postmaster-General, and yet they were now

no more, because thty became palpably useless.—
But what office could be more useless than that to
which the motion referred? The Right'Hon. Gen-
tleman, in defending this offiie, had truly said, that
the business of the Post-office had increased five-fold

since 1792• But did this increase of offscial btisiness

require a proportionate increase of Postmasters-Gene-
ral ? For if so, the Post-office should have five Post-
masters-General instead of two—(A laugh, and Hear,
henry,=and the lion. Gentleman opposite, instead of
being engaged in arguing against the reduction of
one Postmaster, should be eagerly occupied in press-
ing for an increase. But the fact is, that the in-
crease of business at the Post-office furnished no

apology whatever for augmenting the Postmasters-
General, who had in truth nothing to do with the
management of that increase, or with the per-
formance of the duties of the office-(Hear, hear).
—The Right Hon. Gentleman bad observed, that
great injury might result to the department of the
Post Office, if the appointment of the several officers
competent to do the duty of that department were
transferred from the Noblemen who usually presided
over it, to the Treasury or to any other public office.
Now he (Sir James) did not wish to commit himself
so far with official men, as to allege that they had
framed any particular document for the distribution
of patronage, which had not yet appeared before the
Publit ; but he could say that a strong rumour was
afloat that arrangements were already made, and or-
ders issued by the Treasury, to transfer to that De-
partment the patronage of the Post Office, including
'the appointment of Deputy Postmasters, etc. this
being deemed by the Treasury a more convenient
way of conducting business than was afforded by the
present system, If this rumour were correct, the ap-
prehension of the Right Hon. Gentleman as to the
transfer of patronage could not apply against the mo-
tion before the House ; but whether correct or not,
how could it be necessary Ito have two Postmasters-
General to superintend the disposition of places at
the Post Office, and that both these Postmasters
should have a large salary ? Such appointments,
for such a purpose, could certainly not be necessary.
In proposing that there should be only 'one Postmas-
ter-General, his Noble Friend surely proposed quite'
enough, and he recommended that this one Postmas-
ter-General should have an ample salary. But it
could never enter into his Noble Friend's mind that 11
it could be requisite to have one Peer of the realm
watching over the conduct of another in the appoint-
ment of Deputy Postmasters or Clerks, or in the dis-
charge of any other trivial business connected with
the office of Postmaster-General. No, one Peer must
be sufficient for such purposes, and his Noble Friend
could never mean any such reflection upon the cha-
racter of that great body, wit which he was so inti-
mately connected, as to suppose the contrary—
(Hear, hear).—He (Sir James) could never think of
referring to former debates upon any subject, because
such irregularity was calculated to lead to perpetual
litigation and confusion. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman, observing the iilarquis.of Londonderry
smile, said that that smile might be applied to others;
but as he had never taken part in any reference to
the debates of a former day, he was as much entitled
as any Gentleman who heard him to reprehend a
practice at once so likely to lead to unpleasant con-
troversies; and so directly involving a violation of
the duties prescribed in-both Houses of Parliament.
He now came, the Learned Gentleman said, to the
question immediately before the House, and to the
dsctrines advanced to warrant a resistance to the mo-
tion. . The Right Hon. Gentleman who had just sat
down, had maintained that this office of second Post.
master-General was essential to the good govern-
ment of the country, while he at the same time said,
'that it was very difficultAO define that influence of
the Crown which-this-Office was required to support.
So that here was a doctrine which was calculated at
once to put an end to the consideration of any further
retrenchment or economy-:-to put a bar indeed to all
inquiry upon the subject. The argument of the
Honourable Member for Corfe Castle was so consti.
tutional, so invulnerable, that he (Sir James) was
ashamed to attempt to add to it. The influence of
the Crown had until that night been considered ex-
tensive 'enough in its legitimate sources. These
were in the collection of the largest revenue ever
raiseil`by any State ; in the pato:one over the mi-
litary, naval, and legal professions, and the nomina-
tion of the high Dignitaries of the Church ; and in the
support of nine-tenths of those who had influence
over an immense empire in the East. These were le-
gitimate sources of patronage, and were they not
enough in all reason ? If either of them were attacked 1
it might undoubtedly . be said, that the attack was
made upon the just influence of the Crown. Another
of the arguments of the Right'Honeurable Oentleman
against the motion was 'in the difficulty of defining
that just influence; but this, if allowed, would go
to the exclusion of all reduktion, if not of all inquiry.
If Ministers carried retrenc.htueot. into offices filled
by subordinate cle;lcs, who had no; the means of de-
fending themselves, to .who
is pecessity' must thethe
. reduced if they stood upon the infamy of the Crown

against .
berfor Yorkshire to reeonsider hrs re-
collect-that the present Motion did not ten upon hits
to go owl hundredtkpart of the len.rth of his owe
principle.. It was, he 04 impossible to mention
day-office more useksii than that of Postmuster-Ge-
%ital. He tbelieved there was More reason to
Ise .offeied in fa of keeping the two Leeds of the
Admiralty ..vrbo e House bad reduced. ."1111as.(§4
James Mackintosh voted for their reductift
because he thought they could be dispensed. with';
but he should vote for the present motion because he
conceived the office is question was altogether useless.
Of precedents and authorities for supporting this mo-
tion, he could produce the strongest ; not merely from
the Reports of the Committees of 1197 and 1818, but
from the Acts of that House in 1812 and 1815, bi
which Acts several great offices, comprehending th
Tellers of the Exchequer, and the Justices in Eyre,
and others, which were among the most ancient
offices in th,e.country, were totally aboLshed, because
they were useless • and yet what could be more use-
less than the offiee which the motion sought to set
aside, and which was defended by Ministers solely
upon the pretence that it was necessary to the main-
teaance of the influence of the Crown ? (Loud cheers).
mg. Rossmox and Sir JAMBS Macznertssu explained.
W YNN•edd, be coolddered that the people would never
seek to deprive the Crown of its legitimate influence, because it
was existing under a better government than any other cows-
try possessed.
The Marin:deo( LONDONDERRY said, that the best proofs
of the disposition to retrenchment and economy in the Govern-
ment were exhibited in the extended statements lately laid be-
fore the House. He or his friends had no objection to allow
their offices to be examined, to see if further reductions could be
made. The Howe shonid net adopt the principle of destroying
an office. which was a part of the machine of the Government.
The difference of sawing, as applying to the whole question of
economy, would only be from 12,0001. to 90,0001. Ile eon-
, tended that it was altogether flying from the question to argue it
on pecuniary grounds. When he looked at the machine of Go-
veronica, and found it involved SO or 00 offices. he thought if it
was reduced to the degree proposed by Hon. Members on the
other side, it would be impossible for it to exist. Such a proceed-
ing mutt soon destroy the very frame of Government--(11c or).
Ile knew it was said that nothing was wanting but to reform
the Parliament. It was, indeed, a very ready mod, of Reform,
to take away-from the Government the means of tarrying en
the public baldness. While he was ready to agree to all prac-
ticable economy, he would Waist that the office now proposed to
be abolished, was nieessary to the machine of Government. Ile
disclaimed altogether the notion that it was a sinecure office. it
was not to he considered In that light merely, because it had
been put down in rite schedule of a Bill, which his Hon. Friend
(the hlember for Code Castle) had introduced in 1413, for the
abolition of certain offices, which his Hon. Friend wished to do
away. Howevec,.it was -afterwards ex-eluded from the Bill
with the concurrence of Parliament. and when the question
came io be discussed heroic the Finance Committee, k was de..
tided that • the office was pot a sineeuie, and the Committee
founded their decision upon the ground, that it was not desirable
to place the vestinue of the Peet Office under the controul of one
Postmaster-Genera. But Gentlemen on the other side were not
disposed to pay much respect to the judgment of that Finance Com-
mince •' be, however, was not bound to believe that its authority
was destroyed merely because it was not held to be orthodox by
ethers. Yet there was another Finance Committee, that of 1797,
which was held to be almost infallible, one against which no
imputation could lie. Was it the opinion of that Committee that
the office should be abolished ? Quite the teversJ ; they only
wished,to enlarge the Board. He would now lay it. down as a
Imildival proposition, that there was not any one branch of die
Revenue which ought to be entrusted to any one individuaL—,
He protested against the notion, that Mr. Freeling, from his
rank in office, ought to be entrusted with so muck of the public
Revenue without any other superintendance than that of the
Treasury. He called on the House not to sanction a measure
merely for the.purpose of saving X 2300 a year, when two Com.
miners had decided that the office ought not to be abolished.—
The Finance Committee of 1817, did not agree with that of
1797 that a larger Board was necessary, but they gave it as their
unanimous opinion that the. revenue of the office in question
ought not to be entrusted to one individual. Combining all the
circumstances of the case as it related to the Government with
the best fiscal arrangements that could be made for the collet.
Lion of the public Revenue, he would call on the House in a
manly tone,he would call on the Gentlemen•of England to look
around them and duly consider whether this was in office that
ought to be abolished ; he would call upon them not to truckle
to the bad spirit that was abroad; for if they did so, they wotad
at once betray their own situation, and the beat interons of the
country !—( Hear, hear).. •
Sir J. NEWPORT said, the Noble Lord's vote was in direct
centradicdon to his owh coat:maims, for he bad admitted that
he was not prepared to support the contintnace ofkeekes
Now, the Committee of 1797,' to whose 'Finials the Noble
Lord professed to pay so Muck deference, had declared that this
office, as administered .by the Poettnaster-General, was an use-
' less office; and that this branch of the revenue ought to be col-
lected by Commissioners, in the same manner aoevery other
branch was collected.
Sir I. COFFIN supported the motion.
Lord NORMANBY shortly replied. After his Majesty's
Ministers bad brought down 'the King's gracious Mess.ve, an-
nankin his Majesty's: intention of making a great sacrifice out
of his personal income, it was rather extraordinary that they -
should take so early an opportunity of making the Crown the
means of defending a piece of mere Ministerial patronage.
The House divided, and the numbers were—
For Lord Normanby's motion, • 159
Against it, - 184
- —43

Majority
ORDNANCE ESTIMATES.

On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, the attention
of the House was occupied by
Mr. HUME, who complained of the ignorance in whirl the
House was kept relative to the expenditure of 35,0001. voted as
the ordinary expenses of the Ordnance for 1621, toiether.with
3,oent. more for beds, bedsteads, and furnituie, making in all ass
amount little short of 40,0004 Besides these suds., there were
14,0001. voted for charges and salaries to masters and clerks of
works. He did not mean to say, in the meantime, that the ar
Ovation of these sums was wrung; but the House. Aught et.
least to know the items of the expenditure before. it should ho
called upon to'renew the grant. There was, however, an item
of about 10,0001. for works purporting to have been construsw4
in Demerara, to which he could not but object. The colony, he.
Wad convinced, was quite competent to its own difente, and
should be made to bear the whole charge!' lf 'whatewerworks k
.fek,necessary for thislurpose. He theetl)areyrpoosed to nun,
fbr a copy of the'Estfina dares Specifications
•91 the Works at
Dieneesee, 'man Mk, was imak~ketlo7lPtefor
tiro
EngiDegeing ,Rdeactsuslit, which wicisi .to he gr,flataed.
With'regatd to the expense of the ileffilf Demerara, be did
maaa to say that banisters bad no Report of it, but that

• :I

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He. really had lionliktemimstresent any trgantegt, right..hyringsusth an opitir W4O . .' .' • ''. .._ , • ' ' taZiritell;Citaigyv. ' •
but he eettehtlyeted4iat it tyres' preptiaarthe would not, *BD in finlike. 't it was, sp. • itii fiats It . - - - , while theAtisis-
ntrtin shosUd redloin:Sti4erthe intim 0( L46110(4(1; iniiiktr. Ontri4 hid e4pftwid 'eat tan .theilliliVei..ll4e• camphor , seirogijo
- Mi. Fretting, or het grattAveW tn'the treeing:lhe ()pinto% ItenStebgeibent had betiVitible health& itseatinte of laisereema?',4lfiewasi, • tied tuts
mode in winch the duties tf the :011ie were %%the rising the;.Cmenz tbipint pethiine eepluerieitiOns '•tdirkkeetttm, gild %rd.-44n '-' , g f ititiV ils' 44.
present. eriod•disetsargedi gam; be beliesiech general , public sestrents„ angi , think". she maahilalsomat *f lit_Si_i_ iitdisine=‘4.l4. . .... vitticls; stit of •
satisfastsoo;,and noose bad fisted distant ins- the system of Sinecures could. no- !Opel?, sionnagt • 411°W1C WUUUS 'llll74PlieD• *-, •c
provement in that ;node was ereaponible: Retesting necessary. Min the sinecures
who Voltsso stoutly of *bean*. tededdebodbY • ;sum .
to the Report of the Cenunittee d 1817, he certainly as second' in ltit'stegate; 'intik' a 'itaileftlifiiie fa 431,0leoitot. 114 arttoi,4- • , . tifellotient
was.not prepared totay that' ll these ditties slicaild 'maintain the primmitleitlhat *albs blkits:indight•to ittitOtt#f • ihts9tptet 3•' - kip
ofidefill
be imposed upon one person ; `duties•which produeed ,be• pm/Omsk in elder ta freisavedis infitsene, of dee Imataaats it* • 111.411aual hablikleihe:c:'
ar
a revenue of two millions, and required- a* 'view "Crown. Tbo•ltight Hon. fisaikenanwito tionkt kisi *WIPP° issiiiPaiaift t'Y',
,seroar therdisdiv -4t • .
attention to a considerable expenditere. • The °Alien, had not, with all his seal,. atilitpted to assert that lestlettittell In• Hi 'Moe -terdie onithie •
Of Mr. Freeling himself, arm hisezusasuation, %min • the existence of twO.Posirmidele4Feiterid iris" races- a. Risk
.t -Hoo. " tlitftsM of Minya' 46.10.000.64 •
favour of the two Lords.. He (Mr. 11!) could not ad- eery, in order to *form the-Shifted theloottleth; been. fc40004 16:1171°' ianili_ _ 4.lwilitint .if ea the
Mit the justice of the inferenie drawn from the evi- kit the Right Hon:•GentAMtitiatted tipergite, theft , 116PP°Itinr "" :Z.lirlikleCtlrim--
*nee of' Lord Chesterfield; for all•that it amounted astheseofeceswereancientitheyviseethereforeeffitient. Hon: bingetlettw ' and wail;
to was, that the junior, . upon adiffievence•of opinion, It should, however, be within the recollectioo of, the tut k Y. Peogad.. 011 fealkhot alit rine! MO-
conceded to the senior--an .arrangement adopted in. Right Hon. Gentleman, for it happened only a few tion. be
they would -be eppled by eating-
all welt:managed offices. The salary-of the c.e was veins ago, that several &Ica, Which • were very an.' against it: In. particular be entreated • flo"ten"'