Star.
London, England, 1823-03-05 00:00:00

ant Church. •He lsoggell. ha. sietkrersgt bad led to the Ilt haktii
Protestant population referred 4404 savtiOdrairal 05441, it, unless a practical ref!
isle then,,read a statement fibthe/Aril Printietk :thi.C.hutch, there would be no pltace
which set forth thaktheliiings.inahiseparisbes were - !Mr. liecretary PEEK explained.
so low that no Clergyman-could be found to aceept-Igetttkman had it unfortunate
of them, a factious vote of the Irish House of Com-' reference had been made by him.
mons having reduced.the Vicars to want, and made 'atth. He.thought it but fair to
it necessary to unite several Vicarages into.one bene- newer,- in any clehataon the Catholi
6ce. In a case where several of these had been thus. the. Coronation Oath against t)
united, the total income arising from them did not minded. -Such an argument he'
exceed 2001. and in other cases, the amount produced
.would-lie ever use one, which he was not prepared to
under similar circumstances was not more thanlo9l. avow, and maintain. ..
The vote alluded to had passed in the year 1735, and Mr. DENMAN expressed satisfaction at the ex-
its object was to discourage the growth of Popery. planation, of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
Such an effect was not likely to be produced by that Mr. PLUNKETT begged to trespass on the Hops'
Resolution, and nothing could be more unjust.— tor a few moments. He did so with reluctance, but
But he had not risen to reply to the last speaker, but be felt he should be wanting to himself, to the situa-
to the Hon. Gentleman who had brought forward the .tion which he had the honour to fill, arid to the part
present motion. The question was not now,- ithether which he was accustomed to take oa that question,
abuse's should be inquired into which were admitted which had been incidentally connected with the....
to exist. This was not sought: for he considered the bate of this night, if he were not to offer Oaf Or trip,
greatest enemy to inquiry was that man who brought .observations ois this occasion. The natureef:Chansh,
forward a proposition founded on sea principles as property was well known to the House. It was not
the Hon. Gentleman had adopted and avowed that for the purpose of speaking on this subject that he had
night. If the Resolutions before the House were risen. But he could not allow the Resolutions of the,
directed against the Irish Church, they affected also Honourable Member to be offered to the considera-
the English Church; and he should beg to remind tion of the House, without explessing,in terms as
the House how these bodies were circumstanced with strong as the English language could supply, or
respect to their discussions. He deshed that it should the rules of Parliament would allow him to use
be borne in mind, that those connected with the 'in that House, his sense of the folly and desperation
Church had no voice in Parliament, and that the of the measure which had been proposed, and
ancient organs by which they used to express their without expressing the strongest reprobation which
sentiments .had long ceased to exist. Especial care it was in his power to bestow--#/ear, hear, hear).—
ought, therefore, to be taken of those who, by the The plan of the Hon. Gentleman, for governing the
Acts of that House, were denied the opportunity of Church of Ireland, if proper for that country, would
defending themselves. Bat it was not against in- be proper for England. If adopted by Parliament,
quiry that he protested,-but against the adoption they would in effect declare that the property of the
by the ,House, of . principles which must lead to Hierarchy was liable to be disposed of for put
.
-

. Irposes
_
.-
slavery and spoliation : tor never before had such of religion,-or for any other ptirposes—(llenr, hear).
doctrines been broached with respect to the right This would prepare the way for the downfall of the
of petitioning as had been heard on this occasion Hieratchy, that of the Throne must follow, and this
front the Honourable Gentleman--(llear, hear).— would of course involve the overthiow of the Consti-
Was it possible that any branch of the community, tution—(Hear, hear).—He was no advocate for the
but especially that branch which had no direct access divine rights or the sacred property of the Church ;
to the House—was is possible that ;those who were -but he wished property to be held sacred. The
thus circumstanced could be denied, and by a Whig? .Church was, in plain language, an integral part of
—(Hear, heir).—And yet more, by one who carried our. Constitution, and could not be interfered with,
his popular notions even farther than a Whig, that without interfering • with the Constitution—(Hear,
the Clergy ought to be denied the privilege of corn- /year).—But th.. Hon. Gentleman had said Parliament
plaining and petitioning, and told that they had no had interfered with the revenue of the Crown, and
right to express their opinions where their interests had the same right to interfere with the Church.
were so immediately concerned ?—(Hear, hear).— He admitted that it had the same right to in-
Was it possible, because the Members of the Church terfere. But when the House interfered with the re-
met in their own diocese to express their opinions, venue of the Crown, it was not to commit an outrage,
not saying that they would refuse to pay obedience but to make a compact, to which the Crown was a
4o the law, but asseptbling to remonstrate against its consenting party, which was to last but till the expi-
policy—Was it possible that any one could liken such ration of the life interest of the reigning Sovereign.
conduct to that of a body of officers uniting with the But the proposition of the Right Honourable Gentle-
officers of another battalion to oppose the reduction man attacked the property of the Church for alleged
of the.artny ?—(Hear, hear).—lf the House adopted irregularities, and without limiting his measure tea
the views of the Honourable Gentleman, and if life interest, demanded that its property should be
Quakerism were-to be the future religion of the State, , taken away- altogether. Brit then an eqoitable ad-
he knew not what he might do, or what course it justment was to-be made. And what was-the equi-
might be'the pleasure of Parliament to pursue; but table adjustment proposed? Why, that full coin;
it the Reformed Religion was to he upheld, the peasation should be made to the individuals pow in
members of the Church must be protected against the Church. This compensation was to heziven to
such doctrine. Such principles as were now ad- the individuals of whose misconduct he complaitied;,
, vocated had not been
.acted upon in other days.. and the property belonging to the Church was to be
It was not seen in history that' our ancestors bad taken -from their successors, who had never, offended
overlooked the importance of supporting the Church. —(Hear, hear).--And this was the equitable adjust-
The contrary course had been pursued. This was 'mow proposed by the Houourable Gentleonitil..
seen in the first page of the first chapter of our Con, (Hear, hear).—lf he deprecated taking web:a course
stitution in that great Charter which had confirmed with the property of the Church of Englaed, he de-
the liberties (gibe country. The language there held precated still, more such interference with the Church
respecting the Church was this—" Quad Anglican of Ireland. The property of the Church of Englhad
Ecclesia libera sit et hac jura sua integra d libertatis was an integral part of the Constitution; so it was iti
awes ilksas a ita miasmas observari quad apparel es eo Ireland: but besides that, the bond 'which connected
libertate eledionunt maxima a magis necessaria reputes' Ireland with England grew out of. the Protestant'
Eecksiat Anglican', mera et spontanea ooluntale:'— Establishment. When he had heard a speeCh like
Again, it would be found that in 1688, when the li- that-of the Honourable Gentleman's, much as he re-
berties of the country were re-established, it was not grettedthe situation of the Roman Catholics, it was
thought inconsistent with those liberties to require impossible for him to be silent. Anxious as he was
from the King, on his Coronation, a positive oath, in that the claims of the Catholics should be conceded,
the presence of the Bishops and Archbishops, that he•would fling them to the winds if he believed that
the King would maintain the reformed religion, and the granting of them would be injurious to the Pro-
defend the ancient rights of the Church. He denied • testant interest. But what was the ground on which
that the situation of the Church resembled that of he recommended that measure? It was this, that he
the Quakers, or any other body of men voluntarily was satisfied that no act of legislation was so well
. associated, and he would refuse to accompany the calculated to give security to the Protestant interest
Hon. Gentleman in his argument, from the character as that which mould restore a great body of the people
of his Resolutions. It was in vain that the Hon. Gen- to their long lost rights—(Hear, hear).
tleman maintained his motion tended to further the Mr. MONCK agreed with his Honourable Friend!
views of the Primate, because the situation of the the Member for Aberdeen, that the Ecclesiastical
Church of Ireland had been misunderstood, and that Revenues were not so much intended to benefit the
he therefore called for a Committee of Inquiry. For Clergy as the People at large. When the House was
such an inquiry he was disqualified by the first Reso- called upon to vote millions for the building of
lution, in which the Clergy were treated as intruders Churches, where was the harm of asking whether the
on that property which of right belonged to them, Ecclesiastical Revenues were net equal to bear the
and which required that that property should be ap- expense? Where was the harm of taking something
plied by the House to any purposes which they might from the Hierarchy of the Church to be bestowed
think proper. He would not refer to the antiquity upon the inferior Clergy ?It was with this view that,
of this property in the country, but. he would call lie should support the Resolutions, and not with any
upon the House to look at the Act of Union between desire of spoliation, because he did not think that
England and Ireland, and then ask if it was possible either the Church of England or of Ireland were tod
for them, without violating the contract then made, well endowed.
to reduce the Dignitaries of the Irish Church to one Mr. GRATTAN said, that from what bad fallen
Archbishop and four Bishops, as had been proposed? from the other side, he was apprehensive that no
For the reasons he bad given, from the character of measures were intended to be proposed by the Go-
the Resolutions, he felt disqualified from entering into vernment on this important subject. As inquiry was
the inquiry now called fur, ,as he felt it his duty to necessary, he should support the Resolutions, without
oppose altogether the entertaining of principles like agreeing inall the doctrines advanced- by the Hon:
those now recommended to the adoption of the House. .Member - for Aberdeen. He should never support'
Mr. DENMAN was not dispoied to wait till the any views or principles of spoliation; but he was of
opinion that .the Officers of the Church in Ireland.,
evils complained of were- attempted to"lie reformed
by those who opposed this motion, as, if he did so, he and its revenues, ought to be regulated. By the eye-
feared there would bean chance of their getting any sent system, Ireland bad been made a tathokeemisj
reform at all. • He saw nothing in the. Act of . Union try ; for there were not now- more thee tout or kiti
which ought to preclude thernfrom considering what hundred thousand Protestants in Ireland. lleenose
•
principleought•to be applied to the government of be thought inquiry neceisary) he shoglsl;r2;tefosle!..3
therlrish Church. He heard with dismay the' refer- Resolutions. -
.. ,ri
gore made, toahe COtonation Oath. He-thought no (,Mr. HUME, sw "worth repleispist 4.04,544
areutnept.drsiwn from that source could prove very •Idonourahle Vestlemeo.opposite if,hia leo gmage,:ar
cooeiliatorys as that, had, for a long period, prevented if anythiqg which he 44. said,desfri,4 *),ialin;,
a fair, discusileti of the claims of the Catholics. It was Which the Right Ilowmgahle _ genOetnen; ,4m!
.phfortuaate that the Right Hon. Gentleman had made played? An attempt had lyeustuartierto Intsreers
eny referen4e to the. Coronation Oath. He 54Vi no his expressions;• 0W jig - owed
.•it to -0e:17404v-4
objection to considering whether the revenues of the owed it to himsejf-Tbe owed.it tp..chi!eassA, iiiii
Church could not be made more Conducive to the advocating, to mLeet that atlapts.. as,ittfieseyee `fci:
good of the Church. What had been dant in the Ibe met. - the. Right Honourable oleetetary for
„.... s,
case of the Curacy Bill ? . These first principles had ~.lead had'grossly misrepresented his iieselst
4
been referred to in order to make a better provision :compariog them to the 'Act of. 11140;wlileis7:' Ai):
for the remuneration of the working G'letgy..or those Weep away ths whole" property of. #4.llCliakilt, fA,
who performed the duty. He knew of nothing in the •Gept a, poor 1004 He would ace caw say, IVA.
speech •of the Hon. Mover that could viiirisint the ogossalriniuereseciting him :lot it wat-atilfq 1. to*
strong observations which had been nucleon it. ile representing him; ftt his • s cart, ,it• nb
did aot.tneau to defend the whole of it, as be had. injury shall be done to the vested interests:Ll( any,,

11PolPer gots'
his oil/went*
statensAnts.
is:ailed 0 °rat
13104,0Fleuid
OPPPed ttle .
ntmajerherrient-
iefitglo
,; if
__
.... . 131Soea he
aour-
...le ineaseprie, iterito call
him to.oy
e
gr- !...1 , if:9114/01114091,01P4184411ffriar Vow
passing 'INC rulesoof, the lioulitl 44, had, but fol-
lowed . a.matt forward. coarse, is ,W)gatim bad said.
The Right, o:t.:ntletnen seeped to, Wive foot his
ItikOtPile!6) sneS(4.4l,lrt M.;iwkr,e mad bObbn.
jytlo.4,..lie..pati a tsgbt to, cpmithiut
.that his opinions
-414.41%. paced so ee-iMingper light. though, no at-
tetisf tOtadhein'snatle to lIISW CT his
rtprgAtbents. He
hadisaisOin:his own :mind something said by some
.goseg,sgt in. sonie other place, and this,phantom he
04 voebbatted With great Agony. An what instance,
,Mr. Hume it%kia, bad he. ever attacked individual
property"? And Wile tioyerlad, what similaiity was
there between his arguments and those the Right
Hon. Secretary had -opposed? The Right Hon. Se-
cretary had begun by saying he would on no account
be concerned in bringing( forward. Resolutions which
implied a sacrifice of hamper, honesty, and justice.—
He (Mr. I-Inme) was not, however, shared to put
forth such -Resolutions, and he felt himself as inca-
pable es the Right tian. Gent)etasan of. supportinganything which was dishopourahi_4shenest, or un-
just--(Hear, heark•-134ra.W ,hf mFeTrd front other
Gentlemen on many points, every.atatement of his
only: brought on him violent personal attacks—
( Hear, hear).—He was individually marked out for
such attacks, though he was unconscious of ever
making such attacks himself; and from what he knew
of the House, thought they were the last nieasures an
opponent could adopt. One Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had stated that he was the. greatest enemy of
the country—
,,. .
Mr. Secretary PEEL rose to .correct the Hon.
Member; he had not stated that Mr. Hume was the
enemy of the country, but the enetriy of inquiry.--
The Right Con. Gentleman was continuing, when
the cries of " Spoke, spoke!" ".Chair,ihair I" cons-
pelled Mr. Peel to resume, his place. .-.
Mr..HUME, in continuation, said that he wished
to 'avoid personalities, and to ,have. arguments—
weighty arguments, whithwere,alone worthy of such
a subject. The Right iton..tbe.4torney-General for
Ireland, .in thing, hasi.said.Oat he.tould not suffer
the first Resolution to pas; ilstlinut expressing, in the
strongest terms the Xitesh.languege could supply,
or Parliamentary Osage would permit, his detestation
of the desperation andjolly of the. indiiidual who
proposed it-1,-,(Hear, keer). ,
.. . .
111i,PLAJNICETT retie to cirecA,theflen..Slernber.
Ile hadnever .mentioned the sdivadnal.who brought
forward the ineijarep hit'he dA-*Fribed .the plea-
.sure as fall of deSpetitionlin up--illear). .
..,:ll4r. RIME itsath.e.ige4jilih,4l4tioduced the
iis
InOitire.,.e.i;4l4:4et help thtnlttßg tkat:such a cha-
ragesliillt.eifie.reltieted.ssitnetas, n pen himself—
:(4tighier sratit.ieall..,.to riltep.;psl)e,Ch of the
Hon, .Atioinsek•G ' ... • . int Ikelstni,A4 }ouse might
AMosqsaire,sup
.. ,diatApickpmierty was now
.toticbed,, or alptsit. t•ii., be
~.iivilig. , tor the first
pwr
tiw... tie.., ,Pki, MP, see .A,i ,481;1; Hon. and
Liearno-pc4.4;eaultn. v, weltiecon4pg:hii feelings
to his htteresti lidille ardireCir)4l,o44ilUit pro-
fessing such zeal for Calliolieinancgiation, 'he did
not think that -be -slvirti..oo4de bicusplf to co-
Opet:ite with Gentlemen Who admitted .all the evils
for whichintiiiicOlinn witsa remedi, and yet, with-
Oat Satisfying reasoni;oopi:Sid it-(Much cheering).—
And the Right," Hon -Gentlemen opposite—for he
(Mr: Hume) put diem :an tegether—(laughter)— the
Right Hon: Gentleinen accused hind, of desperation
and folly ; why did they- Ant:ciiitrgf,:the latel3i:hop
of Llandaff, Dr. Watson, with deiperatiOn and folly ?
Dr. Watson, who, in his letter to the Duke of Rut-
land (January, 1797) said, ,t There is no .injustice in
altering the value of benefices, or the mode of raising
that value, when the property tif the benefice ieverts
as it were to the State, Ititiitte death* Of an incum-
bent"—(Hear, •Aear).-, ugh he was accused
of " desperation and folly Honourable' Gentlemen
would see that he gioktwith a Bithop on his side.
Let the Right ,HOd. and Learned Gentlem'an (Mr.
Plunkett)wlo tAliKgspoliation, let him answer how
"it happened chasheltad himielf been a party.to that
great spoliatiOnotAeDish Clergy, the tithe of agist-
meat? Malttif.4roni.wint to produce no such effects
Tußigbaion.*4o.ary anti the Right I.l4i.n.Qentle-
Mai had licgi.flUotedSciiptaieupop stijcts- cfisAren— . It
WAS sornetluog abtatt:ointrisent—he did' Arnow ex-
actly what :It svis (Loud kughterl—but 6Winsuld
tell them Neljit St. Paul had said in his > 14,4e.te the
11)easaltOnians.."Si. Paul *them teid,.a Foc_etn.when
S. :100 with you, we commanded ytiit.t.l4t if a man
*i_,Pl Rot :.ork, so ueithep shall .te eat. -(,1 7044
Ikili 4414 Ofitlimaill said was'—fOgo* Sc. PAW •
.10C Mit tbcilie Cl - 'ReA be paid. who
,144 T not
.vcork;,
Ile to the Rig Iloit. Genilematilymild impress
,tliii, as i.tiOn&ll,, Pik i 11#1)i 0 At, (Oa il); ;remark
ell
shout. tie • wff,Plc.,: . ltion." Balfi,her then' read
mime ci?otp,4lms (94 Oct', and other
.*.ritets which
.1401.15#414:0 ,P 1? tile e4nciPleS 4 tk..ktpsolu-
tfonin"Aadi.ptibm9ted to the Louse. - lie expressed
his tutepu?a,,sir ii4difidkng 4ielip'use ttpun the first
E,e4alotio4, twc,llo,l ill second, which, only. related
to iii9.:4474e.Mt,ttOtilkid ‘43.. .1
'Mr: Gli .BllllWczp. , ..114 at-gement was,
.i.hattitOheilessdielirWai noe,l4.ph:.4!poliation of the.
iiirclir,itthifoinif*ilt krte ': teition of private
, 4'
~...,( !,, zn . , s. , ,
in ,
it .
't:Jt tln!.'lteS43lo4/411#110 -. • 4,1 r inved ,
‘ll,2slie.see ' use in . : •
4.1 hnoltatelo7 i. 13-: 11 .. T. Z: •', 14
il..,::J.sonvelcid „yip lin h..:Q, 7: y.:4:4•.);...117
-4-'lY,' ilVoNtib o) libibriiri:-' *(.l' I writes.
- --

sr sim ift. Pitt WCIBB; •
11VB.\ .NitgitirtATtriciiiiostaH the ittkiAtiOtrathe
tgitliAiireitiistittfieiki•hidiliadebthe time
'ied weinjitti Adkilititittrßottfd• and
tW4 etOrttsitiee;
• the Of brit BaatVtlsibilTonour-
ktili Spit titillt*etatrofiti litititheficti,•iihich have
iiitkiegarci to the
latttiekiend. Orlieterahtierehant-thlps ofFee ba.
Re ition'dlaY diade to the Admiridtli and the let-
,:leet.4rotgßliiiietl*Mt? *lt to the-ecretirititte4 and
LianielS, in Bristol, staial, that his
•

I;ritattagleisteilse--
a slukad aurt-the • • '• • _llietenterlOtt a p
form wawa p • tad-in remaropeckin,t,4ollll,, and k primed his ,
Phce in Isekon4. . -,41%710441414)1ttir5t lir;icreilitrSpfccsmitiet. hbi stac
nod. llie- Leaned ..,. 4kik
.* 1W 104414 T !alie
Ryortunitte that any AT.,a4o,
4414;44, iltsim,
. .. . .
1. to the Coronation tilj.o4,laft iboli) _ wt. - i had nl* 0x
33 state, that he bad UoRPIIriOPIe, 41fPla vfien3:l4eß t 4,141
loik Question, urmd ary.farmo; .grass-., paf 104,
the concessions - de. Wentw_on t 0 Mr**, orfi, ITs... 19.444P411))
had never used, nor able pleasammip.aial «ow% it. pracasAlki