Star.
London, England, 1813-02-26 00:00:00

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-They had been told, 'that each ety contained
the:sentiments of the people of England;—btu he
would not believe that the cry or the voice of the
people of this country was against the claims of
the Trish Catholics. He firmly believed that all the
Oonliderate men—all the property and education of r
England were in favour of the Roman Catheslics.—
Ulcer, hear.) He did not desire that the Catholic
Qiestiori should be carried by a party—he did not
pish that any party should ride over the interests
of the nation ;—he wished** to be carried by the de-
liberate voice of the co-operating and
going along with all the property and education
of the land. He would not hold that the rabble
ought to be listened to on such a monstrous ques-
tion as this, even if their voice was against the Ca-
tholics,; for how could they be deen;ed the best able
to judge of high Constitutional principles—of nice
points of national policy—of the great interests of the
Empire ? Were the sentiments of the rabble to over-
rule and prevent the Legislature from considering
a question that involved so many and such deep inte-
rests? He was not afraid of again hearing the stale cry
of Ne Popery !—for he firmly believed that the pre-
dominant voice was for calm and dignified inquiry.
He would not pretend to justify the conduct of some
individuals and of some public bodies in Ireland ;
for he felt as much disgust and indignation at their
proceedings, as could any Member in that House.
He could neither reconcile himself to their presump-
tion, nor the peremptory demands which they'
thought proper to insist on; but was it fair to visit
the great Catholic body of Ireland with the error of
such proceeding ? He was convinced that the great
body of Catholics were also as much disgusted with
such proceedings as it was possible for any Member
in that House to be." But if the claims of the Catho-
lics were reasonable, why were they not granted ? He
thought they ought to go into a committee, and with
the view of conciliating the Catholics, that they ought
to begin with repealing, all the penal laws, leaving
such measure to be carried into effect on the Chuith
establishment being properly secured. The result
of such a proceeding on the part of Parliament,
would he to divide the sound from the unsound in
Ireland, and to silence the demagogues and orators,
who would then lose their terror. There were many.
disaffected in that country, who feared nothing so
much as an amicable adjustment of the clairas—
Men who wildly looked forward to a separation be-
tween the-two countries ; and those were the persons
of whom there was any real fear ; but by withhold-
ing from the respectable Catholic what he required,
the Government was only recruiting far those disaf-
fected individuals. Expectation bad long been enter-
tained and often disappointed, but a wise Government-
would always find its security in putting down the
'fever of hope, aye, even if it were by the certainty of
rejection. By pursuing an ambiguous line of con-
duct towards the Catholics, and holding out glimmer-
ing hopes, Government had only excited expects.
lion, but to disappoint, and thereby to add to-the
bitterness of that hostility which had been sown
amongst the people by such procedure. Was that
the state in which a Ministry ought to keep any per.
tion of the empire ? Surely the best interests of the
country ought not to be sacrificed to promote base
views for continuing the possession of power. He
wished that something might be done with the view to
final adjustment. He had no objection to giving the
veto; but most certainly domestic appointment must be
secured. Foreign influence and interference must be
shut Out—(hear).—To this he thought the Catholics
themselves could have no objection, fur all the ap-
pointments were 'low purely domestic, made by the
domestic Pope. Let the continuance of that practice
be secured—that he must require for internal security.
But he hoped the House would acquiesce in the MO.
tion.e— [The conclusion .f the Learned Gentleman's speech
was arAed ky loud and continued cries .f hear l from
all sides of the Rouse.]
The Right Hon. C. YORE said, that he was
happy that the danger of interference of foreign
powers was perceived by the Honourable Gentleman
who had just sat down. On this point he (Mr. Yorke)
apprehended the most danger, and if he were satin..
fled on this point, he should have but little difficulty
as to others. 'I he Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Plunket)
had misapprehended his Hon. Friend (Mr. Danko),
,who had stated, that not only the Protettrusts of
England, but these of Ireland, were adverse to the
claims of the Catholics. After paying a high compli.
:neat to the abilities of Mr. Plunket, the Right Hoc.
Gentleman proceeded to observe, that the question
was not one of toleration, as the exercise of the
religion was permitted. It was a fundamental law
of this country that it should be Protestant, and
this law tould not be much benefited by being
put in the preamble of a modern Act of Parliament.
'1 he onus probancE was thrown on those who wished
to depart krom this law. And, if it were that the bur-
then orthe proof rested en those who wished to con-
.tinue the restrictions, he would say, that in this darkest
night which ever hung over Europe he could not see
his way:—he could not foresee the consequences which
might ensue.trem the rescinding those acts. He (Mr.
'Yorke) vias'not in favour of the perpetual exclusion
of the Catholics, but-this be thought was not the mo.
meat for granting their claims. 1 he danger from the
Pope had beta diminishA, the danger from the dis-
&Sited Catholics magnified. But that the former
evil might be of no small magnitude might be seen
-from the trouble which the obstinacy of the Pope had
given to Bonaparte. Mr. Yorke then compared the
Roman "Catholic Religion to the statue of Janus,
which had two faces, the Renzi° Laici formed one part
of the system, the ltelizto Gierici formed the other ;
and when these two religions were at any time at va-
riance, it was well known which had always given
way to the other. It had been said that the Pope was
no liner formidable, becaue he was the creature of
Bonaparte, but it was this very circumstance which,
in his opinon, rendered him most formidable, namely,
that Ire was at this moment the pensioned slave of
our greatest enemy, and of the most execrable and
artful tyrant that had eve: lived. As to the sup.
posed impotence of a Catholic minority in that House
he was not so well satisfied of it as the Honourable
Member. If he once Saw a hundred Catholic Members
amongst the m,lie should entertain strong apprehensions
for the safety of the tythes ; and proceeding. on the
Honourable Member's arithmetical proportion be-
tween the increased wealth and population, he should
soon expect them to ekceed even that number. If the
Boman Catholics at present laboured under disability,
vihom had they to blame for it but themselves ? Did

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`'they not acknowledge the supelemecy of die %pa •
I but no man can serve two =aeon. They were not
citizens, therefore, on the same terms as other men
were citizens, and could not expect the same privi-
leges and immunities as other men. •Wben we see
these deluded persons doubting whether they should
submit to the Acts of Settlement, and yet bowing
their necks to all these miserable Italian Prelates, And
to the abominable and impious decrees of 'the Coun-
cil of Trent,end the Fourth Council of the Lateran.
what conclusion must we draw ? If ,the,House once
got into a Committee on this Bill, he feared it would
be a long time before they got out of it, and get out
of it satisfactorily, he was sure they never would.
Mr. J. SMYTH (Member for Cambridge) con-
ceived it his duty, pursuant to the reason and spirit
of the Resolution adopted by the last Parliament, to
support the proposed rneasure_of conciliation and ad-
justment with our Roman Catholic fellow subjects.
—He .concurred most heartily in the Motion of the
Right Hon. Gentleman. He was apprized by the
Petition from the University of Cambridge, which
was not, however, the Petition of the majority of that
body, that he differed from many most respectable
persons. As far as the Petition expressed anxie
and interest in the security of the Constitution, both
in Church and State, so far he completely coincided
with it ; but as far ask looked forward for that se-
curity to the continuance of restraints and penalties,
there he must give his unqualified dissent. The
history of this Country very clearly proves the Penal
Laws originated not in religious, but political
feelings. Religion was , looked upon merely as a
presumptive criterion of politics, in those days, per-
bans, not always likely to deceive. If, then, those
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political sentiments have been radically changed, the
penalties enacted against them should at the same time
cease to exist, though religion had remained the same.
It is openly contended that those penal laws are part'
of the British Constitution ; if so, every instance in
which any portion of them was repealed must be con-
sidered as ar inroad upon the Constitution. He de-
precated, at the same time, any imputation upon great
and illustrious characters, with whom those laws had
originated. They were acting under the pressure of
a hard necessity. is Res dura et regni novitas" was'
the rule and motive of their conduct. It was, he said,
a singular circumstance, that though no person at the
present day would raise his voice against the right
and expediency of mere toleration ; whilst the opinion
of the great Mr. Yorke, in former times, was directly
against it. This delusion of a mind so enlightened
and extensive as his, should inspire the . present
generation with modesty and diffidence in the con-
sideration of the subject now before the House.—
Even Bishop Burnett, with his zeal for liberty and
general toleration, was in favour of a Penal Statute,
which armed the father against the son. Their po-
licy was, hGwever, at least consistent; they avowed
and acted upon the principle of extirpation. But
shall it be said that the Constitution, when advanced
to the full growth of maturity and strength, regoires
the same fostering and jealous care as in its infancy ?
He feared that some persons regarded with supersti-
tious veneration those relics already described by the
Right Hon. Gentleman near him (Mr. Plunkett),
with the most sßlendid powers of eloquence and rea-
son. Let it not be thought that we ire defending the
original fabric, when we are contending for the frag-
ments that have fallen into decay. It will even some-
times happen, in the vicissitudes of human affairs, that
what had been the support of one generation maybe the
bane of another. Wby should we now attempt to with-
hold power from die Catholics, when we hail already
partly granted it, in granting them wealth, and re-1
cognising their allegiance ? He begged leave to tres-
pass on the attention of the House, while he adverted
to a supposition that greatly influenced the public
mind without those walls, namely, that if those claims
were granted, Catholics would be admitted to legis-
late for Protestants ; as well might it be supposed
that Protestant Dissenters legislated at this moment
for the Established Church. Catholics, so far from
ever constituting a majority, could not possibly reach
even the proportion of one-sixth. Did the Protestant
Establishment suffer any injury from the admittance
into Parliament of Scotch Presbyterians ? It was no
in consistency, as some persons supposed, that the Mo-
narch should be Protestant while his servant was a
Catholic. -Should difference of religion induce the
Emperor of Russia to discard Count Wittgenstein,
or chain down his ambition and his talents to the corn.
nand of a Colonel,. a Lieutenant, or an Ensign! Mr.
Burke somewhere observes, that the Protestantism
of the Sovereign was a principle of the Constitution,
even before the Act for limiting the Crown, from
his being. the head of the Protestant Church.—
In that point therefore no security was requisite; To'
the theoretic or imputed doctrine of the Catholics he
would not think it necessary to attend, when the
principles upon which they acted, their uniform
practical conduct, was altogether unobjectionable.—
In the consideration of this question it was peculiarly
necessary to divest ourselves of prejudices of every
kind, and religious prejudices in this country were
among the most inveterate. It was absurd to impute
to the Catholics, as bad been done, a surrender of
the Constitution. He would net go over the ground
so splendidly illuminated, and indelibly marked by
the footsteps of the Right Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Plunkett), and trusted he House would riot
lose this opportunity of conciliating the affection of
their Roman Catholic Fellow-subjects. In differing
from many of his Constituents, he was sustained by
the authority of a Learned and distinguishei Digm.
tary of the Church, the late Archdeacon Paley,
whose work on " Political Philosophy" was held in
the highest estimation by the illustrious University
which he (Mr. Smyth) had the honour to represent.
—Mr. Fox and Mr. Pitt, though widely differing on
other subjects, were agreed on this. The Honour-
able Member concluded with some remarks on the
subject of the securities that might become matter of
deliberation, if the House should think it expedient
to go into a Committee.
- Mr. COURTNAY said be had listened this night
with heartfelt pleasure to the sentiments delivered,
and talents displayed by distinguished Irishmen. Of
Ireland he should speak not with the partiality of a
native, but the affection of a friend. He regretted
that this subject had seldom been considered on a
practical view, or on principles of sound reasoning.
He would judge of the Catholics by the temper and'
sentiments of the entire mass, not by any particular
assemblies. The minds of many were alarmed by'
the influence of the Catholic Clergy over their

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; this jams. be ad to a certain e
tents but it pinceetial, he Wit Spin the peculiar
destiny of the Irish peasant, wises* condition, frost
local and other causes, is such, -that the Catholic
Priest is the only adviser to whom he can resort.
—The Hon. !Member then referred to the Report of
the Commissioners to enquire into the state of educa-
tion, by which it appeared, that the Catholics and
Protestants were equally disposed to diffuse the be-
nefits of education, and the peasantry as anxious to
obtain them. The seal of the Roman Catholic
Clergy was very laudable in this respect., And 'all
the circumstances together afforded the fairest pros-
pect to the wisdom of Parliament. He was aware of
his differing from some of hii constituents, hilt he
spoke from personal and local knowledge, and from a
deep conviction of the general utility of this measure
to the whole Empire.
Lord CASTLERE AGH then moved an adjourn.
went of the debate, which was immediately catried,
and the House, at half past two o'clock, adjourned
till to-morrow, (this day.)