Star.
London, England, 1831-03-05 00:00:00

LEGISLATIVE UNION.

The Earl of WICKLOW rose to present a petition which he con-
sidered of the greatest importance. It was from the Noblemen and
Gentlemen of the County of Wicklow, and the object was to intrcat
their Lordships not to dissolve the Legislative Union between England
and Ireland. The petitioners also prayed for a law to suppress all
agitation. They knew that attempts were then making, to disturb the
social feelings of the people of Ireland ; but they expressed a hope that
the machinations of the agitators might be frustrated. The Noble Earl
could not sit down without a few observations on a subject of such im.
portance to Ireland. On the first day of the present Session, the Noble
Secretary for the Home Department stated that several measures were
in preparation for the amelioration of the condition of Ireland. The
Noble Earl did not know why those measures had not been brought
forward. He trusted that his Majesty's Ministers were able to realise'
the expectations they had held out, and place Ireland in an improved
position. He should heartily co-operate in all such measures ; and he
did nut doubt that prosperity and happiness might shortly succeed the
animosity which unhappily prevailed in that part of the United
Kingdom.
Earl GREY, convinced that a dissolution of the Union wool.]
lead to a separation of the two countries, declared that he for one
would for ever give it his decided opposition. With respect to the
prayer of the petition which called upon Government to suppress
agitation by power, he should be prepared to ask for additional
powers whenever the same might be necessary, but so long as lie
had hope of preserving peace by the operation of the law it would
be desirable to adhere to that course. The Noble Earl had re-
' commended the subject to his Majesty's Government, but he would
ask the noble earl whetter he really thought the Government wanted
that recommendation ? if the noble earl would more attentively look
to what had been done on the subject, he would find there had been no
neglect on the part of the officers of the Crown. He could not avoid
calling the attention of the noble earl to the energetic and wise measures
of the noble marquis in Ireland. who had done much to put down agi-
tation without resorting to measures of a more hostile nature. It was
true several measures had been proposed for the relief of Ireland, but of
all those measures, one only (the Subletting Act) could originate in that
House. It had been found necessary to send to Ireland for further in-
formation respecting that and other measures, but the return of such
information was daily expected, and certainly no time would be lost
in bringing forward the Bills of which the noble Secretary had
given notice.
The Duke of WELLINGTON reminded the noble earl that the
Proclamation Act would expire at the end of the present Session of
Parliament, and he was desirous of asking whether it was in contem-
plation to renew the said Act before the end of the present Parliament.
Earl GREY.—It is in contemplation to propose a renewal of
that Act.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY praised the Government and
measures of Lord Anglesey.
The Earl of WICKLOW, in explanation, expressed his satisfaction
with the excellent measures of the noble marquis.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said, although many of the mea-
sures proposed for the benefit of Ireland were similar in object to those
suggested during the late administration, yet the details diffired
materially.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY presented a petition from Sun-
derland for repeal of the coal duties.

POOR LAWS.
The Marquis of SALISBURY presented the report of their lord-
ships' committee on the poor laws. The noble marquis observed, that
the labours of the committee had been unceasing upon this important
subject, and four hours had been expended that day in coming to a de-
cision whether they should present the report. They had heard a con-
siderable body of evidence, and their main object in bringing forward
the report thus early, was to impress upon their lordships the great ad-
vantage the industrious classes would derive from receiving small allot-
ments of garden. ground.
The Duke of RICHMOND agreed that small plots of land might
to a certain extent relieve the distresses of the peasantry ; but he could
by no means admit that to be the only measure of relief. It would be
found in the west of England that there was a superabundance of la.
bourers; the consequence was, that the price of labour was lowered,

Mr. V. STUART wished to know whether the hon. mem' ot t t
Wreetnnd intended to bring forward the question for the repeal : (boo,
hear.)
Mr. O'CONNELL replied, that would depend on the fete of t- C I •
fonts motion ; if that were rejected, he hoped he should dn.. sew:. .
hare an opportunity to move the repeal of the Union.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition for reform from Kettling,Yorkshire.
Mutiny
A. GRANT presented the report of the mutiny bill ; also the:
Mutiny Bill.—Ordered to be read a third time on Monday.
atroaw OF PARLIAMENT.
Lord J. RUSSELL moved that the older et the day for resit eerie
the adjourned debate be read.—That having beer, done,
Mr. GISBORNE said, he considered it became him to address the
House modestly after the brilliant, but declamatory. %preen of the
Honourable Baronet (Sir Robert Peel) on the opposite aide of the
and great distress naturally followed. The noble duke weld not avoid House. It was not for so bumble an individual as himself to answer
thinklog that emigration would afford relief, and lie thought it should all the arguments of the Honourable Baronet, but he should state in ,t
be facilitated. lie had certainly opposed making a report of the kw plain words what his opinions were silent the subject. Tile Hon
proceediegs of the committee. A great deal of imponunt evidence curable Baronet had assumed that we were in a state of the greate. •
rat ained to he examined ; and it appeared to him to be an Irish prosperity—that we were living under the happiest and most glorious
sort of proceeding to make a report before they acre in full pos. coestitution—and that, in fact, either we were happy and did hut know
session of the facts. i to or enjoying felicity, and would not acknowledge it. He had swum. el
'fhe Marquis of SALISBURY contended that the allotment of large that what he was pleased to call the clamour of the country war not Ile.
gardens to the poor must be productive of great advantage. cry of the people, but was the effect of an exeitetion produced Mall
Earl STANHOPE agreed that large allotments would be preferebie wow unworthy motive, and that it was not mom :cling front the oat's.
to small portions of garden-ground. It had been proved that the poor ral let Imp of the people, so that the House ought to take mitice of it.
man ought to have mound to keep a cow. The a hole of this proceeded on the most fallacious notion of the state
Lord SUFFI ell/ had no objection to the plan of small allotments, lof the country and the condition of the people. If the representative.,
but he was persuaded that measures alone would rot produce effectual too, of the people appeared in that House to state the grievances of ti:cir
relief. constituents, they were decried as intimitlants and exciters—(hear, he ee
Lord TEVNHAM said, the best relief the Government could afford I hor),—and nut only so, but the whole was either thrown upon t.
would be found in removing the excisemen out of the poet- man's hose e. cause itself, or else upon the Members or Ministers who brought Ins.
Let them repeal the malt and hop duties. ward the complaints. When it had been so broadly stated that pros-
The Earl of CA RN AR VON theught the time of the I.oese impro. peril reigned throughout the country, and the Constitution was mo of
poly taken up in this Jesultury conversation. the happiest, he (ME Gisborne) thought he might make some spoil ie-
LooKA EDER It A' pre ented a Petition (rune the mercherts..hip. query into the unmet in which. the House had performed its duttt •
owners, led mho 4of Cork, praying that no additional duty be laid eel Originally the house, as it was said, was composed of two Bonn's,
timber. . a Board of Trade and a Board of Taxation, which were afterworO,
Earl GRP:Y presented a Petition from Okehampton for Reform in united, and from that time the two, no doubt, formed the priecieal
Parliament. and extension of the elective franchise consideration of the house. Now it became the house to Show, diet ice
Lord GOWER presented a Petition from Walsham to the snnc ef- the discharge of its duties every attention had been paid to the exc.-
feet. &wee of the public money, which it would be impossible fur any lion.
The Bills on their Lordships table were forwarded a stage, after nu:able Member or Honourable Baronet to show had been the coo.
which the House adjourned at a Quarter to Seven o'clock. I Let the Honourable Baronet opposite (Sir R. Peel) take the two Net :.
HOUSE OF COMMONS. I that were on the table—the book of the pensions and the book or
places, and say whether or not, from the state of those books,
The gallery was again excessively crowded, and in the house there a Reform in Parliament was nut loudly called for.—(Cheers.)
was nearly as thronged an attendance of members as on any former oc- The public money had been most wastefully expended, and taxation leet
casion at prayers, for the sake of securing seats. been levied with the most oppressive hand, the keeping of expendituto
o'con MAN MAHON. within income not having been accomplished. 'I he house had been
Mr. F. LEWIS presented the report of the Clare Election Commit- told, too, that there were already symptoms of reaction ; but he should
tee, which declared that the return of O'Gorman Mahon was void, and be glad to know in what those symptoms consisted. Ile believed that
that O'Gorman :.iahon, by his friends or his agents, has been guilty of the reaction was only known, or its eymplonts, to the hen. hart. and r
bribery. O'Gorman Mahon, however, was present, and remained few others on his side of the house. The present n.casure had I:::erie
seated on the Treasury Bench, even after the report had been read.— been described as a revolutionary measure. Ile wished to say casein.;
The Speaker beckoned to the ex-member rather significantly, where. uncivil to those who had so characterised it, but he really did nut 'hies.
upon O'Gorman Mahon rose and quitted the House. that, though they said so, they entertained any such belief. It they
A new writ for Clare was afterwards ordered. had entertained this idea, why did they nut oppose the bill in the tiro
ELECTION COMMITTEE RETORTS. instance, and why did they not mean to 'hew their strength against t:
Lord L. GOWER presented the Report of the Grantham Elec.
.o.n. the.present occasion e Why did they not, as the hon. member fur
tion Committee, which confirmed the return of the sitting member.
Is an:eloped, few nights ago, in allusion to another subject, had said
Lord STANLEY presented a similar report front the Hythe Elec.
—why did they nut spew they would rather die in the first ditch than
tion Committ submit to the introduction of such a measure into parliament. The
Lord DUN Committer.
N took the oaths and his seat for Kilkenny conduct of ministers had been objected to also on the ground then
CA NNO
County. there had been no deduction, or comparatively no deduction, mace
Mr. BYNG brought in the Grand Juries Water Works Acts
by then) in the finance department, or in the taxes upon the pct -
Amendment Bill.
plc. (Hear, hear.) It had been said that there had been no de-
nts CITY REFORM PETITION.
duction made, but that of lopping off 62 members from the number of
The Sheriffs of London presented
of London, in favour a petition from the Common
the proposed plan of Reform. (Loud
rerepresentatives in the House of Commons. Considering the littleuse the:
Council of
of that deduction ought not to have been received with something like
a show of gratitude. (Cheers tend a laugh.) With regard to the
Mr. Alderman WOOD moved that it be printed. It was some proof
finances, there was a very wide difference between the state of the lune:.
that the Corporation of London were not afraid of their charter, and
now and when the last Government were in office. The fuods were
did not suppose that reform would at once destroy their rights and pro-
now sonwohere about 70, and at that time they were about JO' . if
perty(cheent). He believed there was only one exception to the petition at
the meeting—all felt that there was ground for confidence in the Minis-
they had been as high now as then, he entertained not a single doubt
ten, and in the Ministers' measures.
that a considerable retrenchment would have been made by the preset
Government. (Hear, hear.) Again, the House had been told tete
Mr. Alderman WAITH lAN would at present only express his ap. measure was to bring forward an operation of novelty—that they Ohio
probation of the petition, and of the Ministers' p'an. After the declare- supported it were novelists. Thie, however, had been set at rest lest
night by the Honourable Member tor Westminster. Had the homier.
don of the Member for Boroughbridge (Sir C. Wetherell) this petition
was necessary. able and Teamed member fat Boroughbridge (Sir Chas. Wetherell ) bee
e
Sir J. MACINTOSH said, that he regretted the absence of certain In his place, he should have teked him what act of non could have hatl
Learned Members, who had as it were appealed to the City of Londow the power to have made a law for the regulating of all future ages as
against the measure of Reform. The award was given, and it was Parliumentary Representatives. He was prepared to deny that my
against those who had called for It. The award showed that the Cit set of men, at any period, could have been, or could he, found
of London was not to be scared by the appeals to Judge Jefferies, and with such power, and if there were to be robbery in the opera-
the times of James 11. He should regret the fallen of the bill, or any don of the present measure, he voluntarily enrolled himself
change of ministers; but he would say, that even if they failed, they ae an accessary before the fact. (Loud cheers and a laugh.)-.
would have enjoyed power long enough to propose this most beneficent One of the benefits which would result front the proposed measure was
and useful measure, and he should rejoice that he had lived to see this that which ought to recommend it more than any other to the favour
great measure proposed. (Hear.) He trusted the example of London of the country—namely, that the power of becoming a Member of I'ar.
would be generally followed. Harnett was placed within the reach of every man in a respectable sta.
Mr. CALCRAFT, on behalf of those who were absent, begged to tion of society. (Hear.) He was determined to take his stand I y this
say that he had heard nothing of an appeal to the city of London; and i plan, because he thought it a full and effectual measure. He was not
as to the boroughs about to be disfranchised, it was proposed to deprive one of those who wished for an annual change of Parliament, nor for
those of rights who had committed no fault, no crime. Though he any experimental changes in the Constitution of the country. But when
was peculiarly interested, he should endeavour to peefonn his duty. experience taught that the established forms of the legislature were far
Lord LENNOX (we believe) said the corporation of Chichester had behind public intelligence, then the changes ought to t.ke place, and
expressed its approbation of the ministers' measure. He feared he , that to, upon such a large scale as would prevent popular excitement.
(Continued cheers.) lie approved of this change, and was free to ad-
should not be able to present the petition this evening. If the measure ,
could not be carried, he trusted the government would forthwith die- mit that it the measure of the ballot should be introduced, he should
solve the parliament, and appeal to the country. I oppose that and all other measures which might induce excitement and
Lord MORPETH said the distance he was from the great body of agitation. (Cheers.) To those who said that there was more danger
his constituents made it impossible for him to state accurately their in going on than in standing still, he would say. in the words of Lord
opinion as to the measure of Reform introduced by government, but . Bacon—es Tame is the great lIIDOVatOr. Time, of course, (lunges thine,
from informalon he had received, he believed he was perfectly war. for the want of wisdom, and cannot, will not change them fur the beta
ranted in stating their cordial approbation of the plan, and that they tar, whatever be the end." As to the bumourous description a!,out a
were grateful to his Majesty's Ministers for the boon about to be be. retrenchment of sixty-two Members, he believed the Otioioeie were
stowed.—(Hear.)
I sincere in their desire of retrenchment, but that they could not effect
Mr. J. S3IITH declared that the whole of the country demanded ' them with the present house. But the present measure was one ot rob-
!
Reform. [eery as well as of revolution. Robbery !of what ? of lands, chattels'
Mr. SYKF.S concurred in this sentiment. Yorkshire, almost to a'No : not even of municipal sights. What the corporations enjoyed
man, was in favour of the plan. was a trust. and there was a power to resume the trust when that
Mr. CALVERT said the borough of Southwark was unanimous in should be deemed beneficial to the interests of the country. (Cheers.)
their approbation of the measure introduced by government. A meet- The boroughs were not wanted to secure talent in the plum ; why
ing was to be held in the Town-hall, and he had no doubts in a few they were desired to be retained was, that there might be :timbers
days he should have to present a petition on the subject, signed by many who could be " counted upon." (Cheers.) he should support the mea-
thousands. sure in its present form—and resist change of it—in unite to prevent a
Mr. HUNT said he was a liveryman of the City of London ; be division.
should be disfranchised be-cause he was non-resident; and lie thanked Mr. FRESHFIELD denied that the Tight hon. baronet's speech was
GOD and the Ministers for it. (Cheers.) He approved of the plan declamatory only, and declared that he considered the measure was
because it did touch the base assumptions of power by corporations.— moat revolutionary. There was much in the preposition to surprise
He did not say the plan went tar enough, because it still withheld I and alarm, and therefore it was desirable to see the bill, that they might
rights. Ile maintained that every man had the right of contributing to before they decided ascertain whether it did not contain more than
the making of the lass. He knew of no petition (two from Bristol and even the motion threatened. Did the bill intend to continue the sent
another place) against any limitation of that right, the withholding or and lot voters ? If so, the measure was inconsistent. it was asked,
enjoyment of which distinguished the slave and the freeman. As to whether the opponents of the measure desired to resist all :cream. He
the corporation of London, it was not a political body, it was a jobbing was fur practical reform, but reform that was consistent with the con.
body,and wits appointed to scavenger the city and have i s streets swept. I stitution—that constitution under which he hoped lung to live. (Hem.)
—The Common Hall of Monday would, however, no doubt support He did not wish to prevent such reform as would increase the mirky of
the plan. election. He was friendly to reform, but lie was against revolution :
Mr. Alderman THO3IPSON said, the body aid not deserve he war against theoretical and experimental changes. As to danger to
this description. It had acted well, and in the most exemPimY j the country, if the measure did not pass, he did no: apprehend it. He,
manner; but the extinction of corporate rights contemplated he could however, wished that the ministers would not give them the trouble of
not approve. I defeating the measure. (A laugh.) This measure was not one of ',-
Mr. D. W. HARVEY observed, that it was a mistake to suppose Mon, but of destruction. As to the measures contemplated they mere
that these measures would disturb corporate rights—the power to do i not new—they were felted up and down in all the settlings of reformers..
mischief would still remain. The plan had his warmest approbation, i But be that fact as it might, the budget measur o were such as not to
even though he believed no member would be more affected by it than induce him or the country to have too much confidence in the ministry,
Mama.; yet, even if he were hereafter excluded from that honour on I they having been ready to tax the transfers of stock, in violation of
which he so tower prided himself- he should still rejoice in having as. faith, and acts of parliaments. (Loud cries of question.) He deemed
eisted to carry such a measure. He settled, that Colchester univerallY th stobe a question—it was one of confidence in the ministers. The
approved of the measure. proposition about wines was also a violation of law. (Oh, and question.)
Mr. CA PEL said, he would not oppose the plan. And all these were front intermeddling ministers, whose principle was
Mr. CALCRAFT observed, that the place which he represented that of non-intervention, and who, under the guise of reform, sought to
had scot and lot votes, and that the voters could and did act We- change the constitution—change iron' which he trusted that GOD would
pendently.
fur ever deliver them.
Ald. WA I TH3IA N bore testimony to the manner in which the About eri members next rose.
Corporation ware elected, and regretted that it should have been donned :Ur I/UM:011113R caught the Speaker's eye. He could not give a
right to attack its members in a body. silent vote on the momentous question now berme them. He had long
Petition ordered to be jointed. thought that some salutary Reform might be introduced into the repre-
Ald. THOMPSON, at the request of some friends, postponed till sentadon ; but to tins measure lie must give his decided opposition, as
Monday the presentation of the petition of the Shipowners of the altogether revolutionary--destructive of the Government of the country,
City of London. and most tyrannical towards the Labouring and productive classes of the
- --- community).—(Loud cheers.) On what grounds were they to be de.
priced, unheard, of the rights pole:owed 1 The Ministers said they had
a precedent fur it in the instance of the disfranchisement of the forty.
shilling freeholder's. He never did, and never would vote for such a
disfranchisement—it was one that could not be quoted as a precedent.
Sixty boroughs were to be disfranchised, and forty-seven boroughs half
disfranchised. If the Bill ever got to a Committee, which he trusted it
would not, he should resist their disfranchisement. As to the Bill set.
ding the question, it would in reality only open it ; but they were told
that the Cabinet was unanimous in favour of the Bill. How was that
unanimity prov,d ? Why the Chancellor of the Exchequer had de.
dared for the vote by ballot; and in the debate on Thursday, only one
member of the Cabinet had spoken in suppmt of the measure. That
noble lord (Palmentoo) had declared, amongst other matters, that he
doubted not Mr. Canning would now have supported Reform. The
opinion was founded on a sentiment adopted by Mr. Canning at the
conclusion of his speech on the Silk Trade, in 1826. He, however,
could not think that Mr. Canning would so have swallowed at one gulp
all his beautiful speeches on the subject of Reform. When he heard so
much about the united Cabinet, and recollected the sentiments hereto.

(p

~~ .

tire held by some of its members, he considered the union miraculous.
If the Parliament w. re to he dissolved to-morrow, he would to-night
vote against this inn as - revolutionary measure.
Mr. .1. SMITH said he !should support the motion. It happened
that at the last clectien for Chichester. that he had been assailed with
the appellation re- a heroughmorger ; l'-t he had told them, what he
now told the home, ;hat he admitted such a power vested in individual
Lards was wrong—that he haul never abused that power. and that if any
gambit would in the house move for a reform to take away such powers
from individual.. that he would most cordially support the motion,—
(Hear. hear) Ile acknowl.dged that there had many illustrious orna-
ments to the Parliament been introduced to that house through the me-
dium of the cloee borough system : but while he granted this redeeming
circumstance. he ors not the less opposed to the means ; and he
was convinced that eumal talent would have found its way into the
lameurable house. heel the system been less corrupt and objectionable.
—(Hear, hear. hear.) When he heard the measure of his Majesty's
Government, it haul en great an effect upon him as to take away his
breath, he was so delighted with its announcement. (Cheers.) He ac.
knowledged the superlative talent that had. as usual, pervaded the
speech which had I te n delivered by the right lion. baronet (Sir R. Peel)
the previous eveing ; but while he gave it all credit for its merit and
very amusing qualities, he was compelled to say that it contained no-
thmg to convince any one of the propriety of opposing this great mea-
sure. The hon. bare knew as well as he did the bad effects of the ex-
isting system by which members could obtain seats in that house. The
hon. ban. had designated the measure as revolutionary. He (31r. S.)
would ask the hon. haroret if, to introduce fifty.four county members.
looked like a revolutionary measure. He (Mr. Smith) was not afraid
of any injury beine done to that house by the measure, for there was
no part of it to which he had the slightest objection. The reason that
this measure had become so very popular was, that the people had fel; •
and severely suffered by the indifference of their representatives in Par.
lientent—they had felt very sensitively the effects of nit exorbitant taxa.
lion. He was convinced that the noble lord who brought it forward
would hear the gratitude of the people expressed in his praises re.
sounding from one end of the land to the other; and lie might
censole himself, that if the bill did not pass now, that the time
was rot f.:r distant when something similar would be of necessity
admitted. The honourable member concluded with wishing that
the noble lord might be successful with his bill ; and he add
that it was a measure worthy of a free and an independent coun-
try —(Cheers.)
Mr. ft A iAtRA FT deprecated the means that had been used to pre-
vent a free opinion being given on the subject, by the threats which had
been held out agaiet those members who had conscientiously attempted
to do their duty to the people of England. He had always done what
he corsidetell to be his duty to the people ; but he would never be corn-
relied to aimed to their clamours when they called for what was
oppesed to their interests and well being ; but it would appear
that this feeling was not so prevalent—for a new spirit seemed
to be springing up in that house. What might be the send.
incrust of the people on this matter, he did not pretend to
know, and he was desirous to gain that information, and he hoped that
between the second and third reading of the bill, Ministers would give
time to afford an opportunity of ascertaining the real opinion of the
people. lie thought the proposed measure was not giving to the people
what they waited, and what they had asked for in their petitions, but
it was riving them more than they asked for, more than they expected,
and consequently too much to risk. The Hon. Member animadverted
at some length on the threats of dissolution of Parliament that had been
uttered, and the name of his Majesty having been introduced for the
putp.oe of intimidation. He adverted to the indignation which had
been expressed by the late Mr. Fox on similar occasions In that house,
when he had denounced as unconstitutional, the introductioo of the
royal name for such a purpose. He (Mr. Calcraft) would like to know
if the town which he had the honour to represent was to be deprived of
its franchise for any alleged crime, or if it really was merely because
its population was under' ,000 ! Now he could tell the Noble Lord
that when the census was taken in 1821, that the three united
ietrishes was only 1,900, and some odd numbers, but that now it
e.,ls 2,300, yet by this proposed bill the town was to be proscribed
without crime alleged to it, or without trial, and with it
there would be deprived of their franchise many valuable men.
He had been acquainted with them for half a century, and knew
them intima7ely, and they were as independent of him as he was of
them, and if they chose could as easily turn hint out as they could send
him to a scat in that Home. Under the new proposition he wished
the noble lord every enjoyment of his new parliament ; but if it long
remained a parliament he would he much astonished, for it would sure
prise him very niuch if, after a few years. we should either have King,
Lords, or Commons. He (Mr. Calcraft) had often voted for reform
in that House, and he confessed that the representative system had
not worked so well as it ought to have done ; and he thought that the
evil might be remedied by a judicious alteration ; but what the noble
lord called reform he (31r. Calcraft) called revolution. He had no
to sitation in declaring that the mischief which would arise from the
noble lord's bill would be irremediable. He (Mr. Calcraft) pledged
his honour that when he came to town he intended to support the Go-
!refitment measure, and he assured the House that nothing had pre.
vented him:from doing so hut the extreme extravagance of the proposi-
tion. He always thought that there were blots in the constitution that
ought to be removed; that there were vast bodies of the people that
ought to be directly represented, in those large towns extensive in trade.
and that these ought to be represented by adding so many members
to the numbers of the House of Commons, or by some alteration. He
confessed that in what he had to say, he was about to admit the prin.
ciple of the proposed bill ; namely, that if It had been found inexpedi-
ent to add to the numbers of the House, that some of the very small
boroughs should be deprived of their franchise, and that the right
seeuld be conferred to large manufacturing towns, (Hear, hear, hear)
lie had always been a reformer, but when the noble lord brought
in his reform budget, he (Mr. Calcraft) was reduced to a mere
puny whipater of reform ' • he stood far too low in the auction of popu-
lar approbation to be hid for at all. He could assure the house, that if
'hey did pass the bill, they must not stop there. The hon. member for
Middlesex had sail, that lie considered that vote by ballot was still left
fee a future measure. and the hon. member for Preston had expressed
the astonishment that his Majesty's ministers had ceded so much ; but
sail he considered that the people had not yet got all to which they had
a light, but that the bill proposed was a good measure to pave the way
for the rest. If this were given, the overwhelming infusion of popular
influence, they will soon have what they want, with the ballot and uni-
vomit suffrage ; when 500,000 were added to the voters, their argu-
ments would then be unanswerable. The tradesmen would come and
tell them that they had given them to wield a barren sceptre ; that they
dared not vote for fear of injuring their trade, and they would then beg
of the house to give them the ballot, or take away their franchise alto-
gether again. (Hear, hear.) As it was, the bill would give much more
titan was required, more than what was asked, sod more than was safe
to give • and, not contented with that, it must lead to vote by ballot.—
Ile had been delighted with the speech of the hon. member for York,
who had been one of the makers of this united cabinet. (A loud laugh.)
But he (Mr. Calcraft) thought that the unity had rather a doubtful ap.
reference, when that hon. member had acknowledged that he did not
approve of the bill, but that he had given his consent to it for the pur-
pose of preserving this unity. (Hear.) The hon. member concluded
with declaring that he would consider himself acting inconsistently as a
reformer, and to have committed a breach of loyalty, if he had giveoehis
af.ellt to the proposed bill.
Mr. STANLEY said. that during the eight years which he had
the honour to fill a seat in that House, he had always been an advocate
for reform—and if he had refrained more frequently from troubling the
House with his public expression, it was because that he always conai-
dered that the cause was supported by abler hands. Rut on so proud-
!lent an occasion as the present he considered himself bound to rise and
express his eentiment& He alluded to the speech of the honourable
baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), and remarked, that on a former
trete entous question, the honourable batonet had changed his opinion,
end he hoped that when this bill had passed into a law the honourable
I. eonet would, as on that occasion, change his opinion, and give it his
approbation. %When the right honourable gentleman brought forward
a great Constitutional question, wes he met by opposition ? (Cheers.)
When deserted by his friends, who took up his cause, and maintained
it throughout the struggle ? (Cheers.) He admitted that the right
honourable gen:lemen was alone able to carry through lthe Catholic
question. bemus: of the confidence which was felt in his zeal towards
the Protetea:o Establishment—but he might at present reverse the pic-
ture. and raF. that he (Sir IL Peel) et uld not, perhar have adopted
the same emeettres as the present Geweinn.ret with respect to Ireland,
ht tame he u As suspected in his views of freedom and popular rights.—
Ail tense who had opposed the measure had conie forward with the
weal o revolutioilaryn He granted that the right honourable gentle.
man was very cautious as to the word he used—he heel not called it a
revolutionary measure. No. but it was a " new constitution."
Sit R. PERT,—It was not my word. I quoted the Noble Loren—
( Loud cheers.) I :Abend purposely to the words of the Noble Lord.—
(Cheers centirated.)
Mr. STANLEY proceeded. His 1' oble friend might consider it a
new constitution of Parliament. (Hear from the Opposition.) But
there was a broad distinction between that and a revolution. In his
idea, a revolution ails song great change effected in the institutions of
a country by the application of an unconstitutional force—(hear, hear),
—or infringement of the rights of cue branch of the constitution, by the
exorbitant power of another. But a measure which courted public
opinion, which could not 1 ass into a law without receiving the assent of
the titter branches ct the la gislatine—wale lie to be told that such was a
revolutionary measure. (Cheers.) Then they were accused of pre.
venting the House from doing its duty by threats of civil war. On
this subject he should quote the au:hority of the Right Hots. Gentle.
titan himself. [He proceeded to read an extract front Sir R. Peel'.
speech on the Catholic Relief Bill, in which the measure was justified
by the apprehension of civil war.] If apprehensions of civil com-
motion were urged is an excuse for adopting a measure contrary to
" still maintained opinions,"—(hear)—were they (the Ministers) to be
Wanted, when in support of a cause which had been always theirs:,
they pointed to the state of the country, and showed the timid and the
wavering where lay the greater danger. (Cheers.) He regretted
that any should, its the eagerness of debate. have brought forward
the name of the Sovereign.— (Hear, liter, from the Opposition.)—
But for that name being made use of by the public press, they were not

responsible. With respect to threats of dissolving Parliament, it was
only natural to soy that it was not impossible, in case of a hostile deci-
sion, the. Ministers would make a second appeal. But the menace was
answered by a counter-menace—" Dissolve as," said the right hon.
gentleman, " and I and the 166 members you wish to disfranchise win
go down to our constituents. and tell them to return us if they wish
their rights to be respected I)" Now however cogent such an argument
might appear to the constituents—if the hon. member had any—it was
rather on appeal to the passions than to the general interests of the
country. As to the responsibility attaching to the low of the present
measure, it must remain with those who, when they had not been able
to remain in office, because they were against reform, would not, being
out of office, allow it to take place. But the present was not the proper
time for reform. And what was the pledge of Ministers? Had they
net come into office expressly to carry reform ? If supported, as he
trusted they were by the country, were they to comply with the friendly
advice of the right hon. gentleman, they would have on their shoulders
a fearful responsibility for having disappointed the just expectations
of the people. The Catholic question had taught that house the
danger of delay. If that measure had been carried long ago, it
would have saved many a sanguinary struggle, nor would the
testicle spirit which now put the population into the hands of any
ne.n who wished to excite it have existed, making the boon, now
that it was granted, comparatively of little value—(hear) It was
with all such measures as with the Sybils' books, the longer you
delay the less you get. and the dearer you purchase. If Govern-
ment, by proceeding gradually, systematically, and firmly, had shown
long ago that it was determined to reform abuses, the people might
now be ratified with a less sudden change than the one contemplated.
But look to the past few year', and see how much money had been
spent in discussing some paltry questions. whether there existed legal
proof, whether this man had recited tire pounds or another
ten, when it vas as notorious as the sun at noon-day that the bo-
toughs were corrupt boroughs ! After all this minute investigation
what had been gained ? Not one great town had been added—not one
borough deprived of its privilege of being bought. But they were not
to be told of the demands of the people. " Let the people petition,"
it was said; and GOD knows they had petitioned long enough. But
why should they sue as bondsmen for that which they had a right to
demand ? Why was it inconsistent to apply to that house an expres-
sion which that house made use of when addressing the Crown in sup.
port of its constitutional rights? Objections had been made to the
line of demarcation which disfranchised boroughs under two thousand
inhabitants. Now it was the opinion of Mr. Pitt that a fixed limit
should be established, and that it should be in an axiom in ?Tu.
aentatton to make it depend on the number and condition of consti-
tuents. if the disfranchisement of corporate boroughs ware proserip.
the, he called on the right hon. gentleman to explain the disfran.
chisement of the forty-shilling freeholders. (Hear.) Was it not
on the principle that those exercised a right to the injury of the public ?
That measure was adopted on the principle, and he agreed to that prin-
ciple, that the 40s. freeholders exercised the privilege to the injury of
the public, and that a line of demarcation was not adopted on the
ground of right, but on that of expediency. Although it was true that,
under the nomination system, men of great integrity and great ability
might come into that house, there was one class that could not come in,
they could not be representatives of the people—(Hear, hear) ; and that
single defect counterbalanced all their attributes. The honourable and
learned gentleman opposite had said, the object of the bill was to take
500,000 persons, mostly front humble life, into their council. The ob-
ject was not to .Ice them into council, but to attach them to the insti-
tutions of the country, by the knowledge that they were faithfully re-
presented, and to obtain that security for the constitution from their
affection, which never could be obtained from their submission.
(Hear, hear.) He thought he was not likely to advocate a Tel olutionury
measure, and when he looked at those by whom this measure was sup-
ported, he could entertain no fears from them. Was the noble lord,
by whom it was introduced, one who bore no name con..
netted with the constitution of the country? (Hear, hear., hear.)—
Was the Noble Lord at the head of the Government likely to neglect
the security of his order? Had he not been attacked for his attach.
meat to his order? (Hear, hear.) Were not all the Ministers by
whom it was proposed men who bad every 'Mil to lose and nothing
to gain by the chance medley of a revolution ? (Hear, hear.) Men,
whose great object must be to give stability to the institutions of
their country, on which their property and character depended, and
who wisely thought the best means of security was to fix those in-
stitutions on the affections of the people. (Hear, hear.) Their ob-
ject was not to change the Constitution transmitted from their an-
cestors, but to repair and strengthen it ; and was it for this they were
to be stigmatised es provoking a revolution? (Hear, hear.) Ile
was not alarmed at the prospect of the changes contemplated by the
Bill, which would uphold the legitimate influence of the aristocracy,
and world oniy take away the influence of corruption and intimi-
dation ; and In this country, distinguished above all others by re-
spect for rank and station, the aristocracy may well maintain
their influence by an intercourse of friendship and kindness with
their neighbours, which certainly the bill would nut impede, though it
would for ever destroy the influence of corruption. A noble lord had
said that the 168 members who would be disfranchised by the bill
would seal their own damnation if they gave it their support—and the
noble lord assumed that they would oppose it on that ground—but they
had that night a striking instance of one of these 168, who came forward
in the spirit of patriotism and said, " I have exercised the unjust power
given by the existing imperfection of the constitution, of returning
members to this house—but I rejoice at the improvement of this bill,
and fling with delight my paltry interest into the scale of national wel-
fare and constitutional security."—(Hear, hear.) He trusted many
others would be found of sufficient virtue, or sufficient prudence to imi-
tate so excellent an example.—(Hear, hear.) Much had been said
against the constitutional and legal tendency of the measure, but not
one word had been said against its honesty.—( Hear, hear, hear.) Mi-
nisters were pledged to Reform, and without looking to the right band
or to the left, they had fully redeemed their pledge by producing a
measure that would cut off corruption for ever.—(Hear, hear.) He
would implore those who were to decide on this great measure, by their
love of justice—by their love of the great and glorious constitution
handed down to them by their ancestors, to support a measure
whose object was not to violate but to Preserve.—(Hear, hear.) He
ca/led on them, not by resistance to defeat the measure but to unite
with Ministers in their endeavour to give stability to the institutions of
the country, security to the throne and aristocracy, and to build an
imperishable fame upon the basis of the affections of the people.—
( Great cheering.)

Lord SEYMOUR addressed the house. He said the measure was
calculated to take away influence from the aristocracy and franchise
front the people. They were told they were corrupt vile boroughmon-
gers, and therefore they were called on to commit suicide. (Hear, hear.)
They were told that if they would not have reform now, they should
pay a higher price her after; he would rather pay any price than con.
sent to the present bill, which was an indirect attack on all the esta.
blished institutions of the country. They were threatened with the
power of the Crown, and with the fury of the people ; but he would
yield to nehher, he should do his duty, and to the utmost of his power
endeavour to preserve the constitution. (Hear.)
Mr. W. WYNN said, he had listened with deep anxiety to the ar-
guments so ably offered on both sides of the house on this most im-
portant subject, which, with the single exception of Catholic emanci-
pation, was unparalleled in magnitude during the thirty years he had
the honour of a seat in Parliament. He felt all its importance to the
country and to the cabinet, with most of the members of whom he had
long lived in intimacy. He held with the right hon. gentleman oppo-
I
site, that nothing could he more contemptible than perseverance in
acting on an erroneous opinion after the conviction that it wakerroneous
(heir, hear). He had reflected on the question of Reform many years,
and had aiwat s opposed large and general changes of established in-
stitutions; but he telt that the constitution of this country was one of
innovation—of perpetual amendment ; but that amendment he also felt
to be perfectly safe ought to be gradual. (Hear, hear.) He had al-
ways supported bills for the correction of corruption when proved. by
the transfer of the franchise. lie entertained the hope that by perse-
vering in that course the danger of large changes might be avoided.—
For many years the Hou-,e did its duty by making such transfer of the
franchise when corruption was sufficiently established; but of late
years such proofs were required as could not be adduced, though the
fact of corruption was notorious. The case of East Retford produced
more discontent in the country than he had ever before known to be
produced by such a cause. Front the tinte of that decision all con.
n(l:flee of improving the representation by that mode of proceeding
ceased. When two cases of corruption were proved to have occurred
together, and the franchise in neither case wax transferred to a
large town, it was impossible that confidence must not be destroyed.
On all former occasions, when it was proposed to give the fran.
chise to large towns, it was asked, had they expressed any de.
sire for the franchise ? That question could not now be asked. (Hear,
hear.) His noble friend at the head of the law knew that previous to
the fall of the late Government, though he telt great difficulty, he had
made tip his mind to entertain the question of Reform. The change of
Government took place, and the present Ministers came in pledged to
retrenchment. peace, and reform. He telt great confidence in the views
of his noble fri:nd at the head of the Government. and who was joined
in the Government by persons who would not be likely to make changes
beyond the necessity of the now. (Hear, hear.) On this ground he took
office under the preset,' Administration, reserving to himself the fullest
right to state his opinions, taking, of course, the u-ual consequences of
not eetving under a Government with which he dirtied in opinion.
; (Hear, hear.) He had nu knowledge of the Bill till about a week ago ;
he had since given it the greatest consideration, and of many parts
or it he highly approved : striking off non-resident votes—extending
the franchise to householders—taking the poll in districts • but he must
except to the power proposed to be given to the Privy &lineal, of In.
creasing the number of electors in boroughs, which should be done by
Parliament only. He could not agree that it was robbers., as had been
said, to take away the franchise, which was not a mere right and privi.
lege—it was a duty, and when the legislature was satisfied that it could
be more advantageously exercised by another portion of the community,
than by that which possessed it, the transfer was just. He did not see
how any one who had voted for the disfranchisement of the forty.
shilling freeholders of Ireland, should scruple to vote for the disfran-
chisemeet under the Bill. (Hear, hear.) The Bill would change one

fourth of the Blembers of the House of Commons, and that was
a greater extent of change than he was prepared to go. (Hear, hear.)
lie had considered the subject anxiously, and d with pain that
unless the Bill were to receive such a degree of modification as it was
not reasonable to expect, be could nut give it his support. (Hear.)
He had always considered the Mouse of Commons, however chosen,
as fulfilling all its duties in times of the greatest difficulty in the history
of the country. He had seen the Members for the boroughs it was
proposed to disfranchise acting as the best safeguards of the Constitu•
tion. (Hear, hear.) It was with pain he differed with the Govern-
ment, and with still greater he differed with his constituents ; but on
such an occasion a man must be contemptible if be did not act on his
own opinion. (Hear, hear.) He had performed his duty, and was
prepared for the consequences.—(Hear, hear.)
The LORD ADVOCATE began by stating that the part of the

measure introduced to the house by the noble lord, to which his atten-
tion had been first called, was that which related to the representation
of Scotland,—a part of the subject which had hardly been noticed in the
course of the debate, and which, from the general silence of the mem-
bers for Scotland, did not incur their disapprobation. The noble Ind,
who explained the measure of reform to the house, stated in a speech'
unusually distinct and luminous, and, considering its brevity, surprise
ingly complete, that Government proposed to bring in successively
three bills, with the intention of reforming England, Scotland, and
Ireland. If he did not greatly misapprehend the rules and forms of
that house, the question relating to the representation of Scotland was now
as much within the consideration of the house, as if it had been specifi-
cally brought before its notice. He was the official person to whom the
charge of drawing up the bill relating to that part of the subject bad been
intrusted ; but he bad no wish to enter into what might be considered
by the house an uncalled for defence of that proposition. Two
noble lords on the opposite side of the house had introduced the name
of Scotland ; but beyond a general statement of the sufficiency of the
present system of representation, or rather the undoubted prosperity of
the country mkt that system, he was not aware of their having made
an impeachment of the proposed alteration, or any distinct vindication
of the existing system. (Hear, hear.) He took it, that some of the
topics which, in the early part of the debate, occupied a great share of
the attention, and not a little of the interest, of honourable members,
had been already finally disposed of in the judgment of both sides of
the house. He believed that the grounds on which the opposition to
the great question of reform rested, were these—the undoubted pros-
perity of both parts of the island under that form of represen-
tation which the proposed measure impeached as imperfect ;
the want of specification of any positive or direct evils which
could be traced to alleged defects in the present system of res
presentation, and the want of any specification of particular benefits
which the proposed alteration would produce. To these grounds of op-
position he might add—omitting to speak of the subject of corporation
robberies, which he considered to be already disposed of—the less rea-
sonable, and more vague charge, that the proposed measure was revolu.
tiorary, and that it was calculated to infuse too democratic a spirit into
the constitution; and to threaten, b 7 gradual progression, other alte-
rations, which would ultimately destroy the monarchy and the here-
ditary branch of the legislature. It was further urged that no reason
had been presented on the part of those who proposed very extensive
and unprecedented changes, except that the country not only desired
them, but clamoured for, and insisted on them, with such determina-
tion of purpose, and such open threats, and not suppressed menaces—
that the house must concede to the cry of the people what it would not
to the arguments of those who proposed changes ; and that that
cry among the people had been raised by those persons who had intro-
duced the proposed measure of reform into the house: (hear, hear.)
Perhaps he might be permitted to say one word with respect to the an.
gument which appeared to him to have produced the greatest effect in
that house—namely, that the country had prospered eminently under
the present form of representation for a long course of years, and that
therefore a change for systems less known, and, it might be, less bene-
ficial, was not desirable. Now he would ask, when was the time, for
many bundled years back, that England was not distinguished for
glory, wealth, and splendour ? Was it not true that in the days of the
Tudors and Stuarts England had already achieved a high place
among the nations Of the world, for wealth, splendour, and cultiva-
tion, and even for a great degree of domestic liberty ? But
was that an argument why the people of England of the pus
sent day were to be content with that measure of political liberty which
satisfied their ancestors then ? But the fact, to which all history bore
witness, and independent of that testimony, a principle offered to the
consideration of every reflecting person, that for nations to attain to a
great measure of prosperity, and an infinite measure of wealth, very little
political freedom, or very defective political institutions were frequently
necessary and proper. It was under those defective political institu-
tions that nations obtained eminence in arts, manufactures, commerce,
and wealth, and the fruit of that prosperity was liberty. The first
step to regeneration was the moderate degree of freedom granted to
:En commercial towns, which had made meat advances in civili.
wealth. (Hear.) The other day the bor.. and learned
toember for Newport ( Mr. H. Twins) expressed great apprehension
at such places being now proposed to be admitted in the pale of
the constitution. The honourable and learned member, to support
his own views, had quoted from a very able commentator on
the British constitution—the author of Ecclesiasticus (laughter)—the
following passage :--" They are wise in the work to which they have
committed their minds ;" and them it was that the day of regeneration
Wine which wealth bad produced ; for liberty was the daughter, not
the mother, of riches. (Cheers). Thus, and thus only, arose the
Italian republics, the free towns of Germany, and the germs and seeds
of our own liberty, towns and corporations being the first to be eman-
cipated from the oppression of feudal tyranny. As wealth accumu-
lated, and made men anxious to have protection from vexatious and
illegal interferences with their concerns; so the increase of eultivation
and the diffused intelligence which wealth bad created, required more
vigilance on the part of the legislature, and demanded a more minute
acquaintance with the wants of the community. The fact was
deducible from principles which admitted of no question, that
as nations continued crescent and progressive in wealth, they
outgrew the dimensions of their political institutions; and it became
necessary to alter, adapt, and enlarge those institutions, in order to
accommodate them to meet the great, additional, and accumulating!
difficulties which grew out of Such complicated interests. (Hear, hear.)
Accordingly, what had been the progress in England? We were
prosperous and splendid, while we were saddled with the Star Cliambet,
with the prerogative, with purveyance, and with ship money. At that
time there were tnerchantauf great opulence, men of honour and intel-
ligence, and immortal works of genius composed. England then bore
1 .4 proud a name among other nations as at any other period. (Hear.)
But just as wealth multiplied, intelligence spread among the popu-
lation ; and in the same propottion, the basis on which the
constitution rested became wider, in order to provide room for
ithe multiplied children of freedom. (Cheers.) Now was it true or
not, that within the last 23 or 30 years, there had been manifested
among the people a great quantity of intellect and of political interest
—a great capacity to understand and intelligence to comprehend, com-
pared with which all which he had spoken of, as existing in the most
glorious periods of our history, was insignificant. We all knew
how, in feudal times, the barons extracted charters from tyrannical so.
vereigns, and how towns were taken under the protecting wings of the
barons or sovereigr.s, in order to give strength to either one or other of
those parties. Then came the burgesses gradually rising into wealth;
and last of all the serfs and villains were emancipated. (Hear.) Where
was the man who :would say that at any of those periods concession
ought to have stopped short? By what criterion would a judgment
be formed as to the point beyond which it would be impossible to go
without ruin? 11. knew no limits to improvement but the limits to
the desires of intelligent men, who crave, and rendered seasons for
their craving more or the want of those arguments by which their
desires must be defended and explained. (Hear, hear.) Now he
would come to the fact, for it was a mere matter of fact that was
in dispute between the two sides of the House. Let him look to
the great number of persons of wealth, respectability, intelligence,
and loyalty, belonging to the middle ranks in Loadou and Man.
chester, who were now unrepresented. (Hear, bear.) Was it
true, in point of fact, that that great belly of persons were
discontented and dissatisfied, and that they were alienated by their
exclusion ? He would answer that question. It was well known that
petitions in favour of reform had been laid on the table of the house
uncountable in number—signed, not by fifty thousands, but hundreds
of thousands. If it be the case that the great portion of the people io
the districts he had mentioned did not share those sentiment', how was
it they had sentpetitions to that house expressive of their opinions, and
denied the statement of the existence of dissatisfaction. But there was
only one petition which he was aware of that had been presented against
reform, and that came from Bristol, and contained a sort of minockry of
the language of the Iron Barons of Merton : " We do not wish the laws
of England to be changed." The right honourable gentleman then
Meseta to the number of petitions which had been presented in favour
oftsform front different parts of Scotland ; and stated that not the slight-
est influence had been exercised to get them up. He called the attention
of the house to the petitions from Glasgow, Dundee, Aberdeen, and
Edinburgh, the latter of which he knew to be signed, from his own pee.
sonal knowledge, by four-fifths, if not five-fifths, of all the persons of
wealth and respectability in that city ; and half of the 180 persons, who
signed the requisition for the meeting at which it was carried, had been
converted fmm feeling distrust at reform to a sense of the propriety of
its concession. (Hear.) There were two points which had been ob.
jested to its the measure; one wee, the giving of the elective franchiso

to those who had it not—the other wcs, the taking it away from tho'`
who had it. With respect to the first paint, would any man say the;
a body of unrepresented nelsons, equal in number to double the pope
lotion of some of the capitals of Europe, should not have a few
enter.
bers to represent them ? Was not this, then, a great advantage in this
bill ? He would stop a moment to consider the objections to the noose
sure, founded upon the supposed advantages which attended the pi:.
sent system. The honourable member for Callington had expatiatoi
upen the advantages attending the present system, under which the beer.
ditary aristocracy and democracy were properly mingled in the Houses;
Commons ;liire said, " if you change this system, you losethe odors
tages." But how would this bill sacrifice those advantages ? It was lrn.
possible to say that gentlemen who argued thus vindicated the mimic;
system, except upon hypothetical principles. Let them go to
counting-house and to the exchange where merchants consort; let then.
go to Leeds and Manchester. and see how the people there dealt with
the question. Let them consider how the press treated it out of don;
Every person knew what strange tricks interest would play on a moo:
faculties. (Hear.) Let the house see what was the result of go
bon. member's argument about peers possessing their native authority,
and privileges, and prerogatives in the House of Commons. He ;tit,-
Lord-Advocate) conceived, in the first place, that the House of Lord,
in their individual sapacity, possessed no prerogatives or privileges
at all, except that of being hereditary magistrates, which peso.
lege they could not exercise any where but in their own hou.:
But even of the peers, it was only the rich proprietors that enjoyed the
privilege of influence in the House of Commons; for proprietors wit •
had no borough had no such privilege. If it was not the hereditary
aristocracy, what alone enjoyed this privilege ? but if it was the influ.
ence of wealth generally, wealth undoubtedly ought to have int uence
But were all wealthy persons proprietors of boroughs ? Were
landed and the mercantile interest possessed of this influence ? A ma:,
of small property might lay out his money in this way, and by the pin.
chase of a borough manage to get a kind of stock in trade. But wise
might be done in this way ought to be done openly. (Loud cries o
hear, hear, hear.) If it were better to continue the present plan
of Peers having Boroughs, every Peer, with an income of
10,0001. a year, should have a member to sit in that house to reptema
him, and every member with 20.0001. should have his member too,
then there would be ensured a proper appendage to rank ; instead of
there being a monopoly of the privilege. He allowed that propene
ought to have a large influence in the election of members of Paolo.
went ; but it was said that so far from the new arrangement giving In)
influence to the country at large, less would be given if the arrangement
did not take place. The hon. member for Callington had referred to the
influence of the Bedford family, and had asked %halm, ti... 01411Q.0
would throw open Tavistock and other places, ankhad said that for
halt-a-crown he would ensure the present members their seats. Ile
(the Lord Advocate) believed that a charitable and ho-pitabk noble-
man would always have a certain degree of influence, which he deserved.
(Hear.) But instead of such influence, we were now placed in a pe.ti.
lentlal atmosphere, where what was done was done by the base cotrup-
don of many. (Hear.) The objectors to the measure were singularly
contradictory ; some objected to it as too popular and democratic ; ye;
it was also objected that it excluded the lowest classes. How were thee.
objections to be reconciled ? It was said that tradesmen, and attornies,
and petty householders, would he admitted tc the elective franchise, ur.
der the qualification of 101. and that therefore the qualification was to
low. He (the Lord Advocate) contended that, on the contrary, it war
increased five-fold, the qualification being now 40s. Gentlemen again,
argued as if the qualification was not to include those above 101. wherea.
it was IOL and upwards, and that might be 100 or 1,000 fold. Ws,
that to inundate the land with a demoaasy ? Really, if the of,
freeholders and the pot-wallopers of the present system did not produce
tl.at effect, it was extraordinary how it was to be produced hr
raising the qualification. Therefore he was at a loss to eotosive
the propriety of the deduction. It was a great mistake %) :,,t.-
sider that increase of property was likely to produce dissatisnie.
tion or disloyalty, or an indisposition to acknowledge the authority
of the law. Would it be said that a comparatively poor man was
less interested in the security of his little property than the rich man
who was dying of ennui, or gloating upon his useless hoards? On
the contrary, a man who had acquired a certain degree of competency
looked with the greatest anxiety on what affected the security of his
property, and was of all others the most likely to rally round
the authority by which that property would be defended. (Hear.
hear.) He felt himself lifted above that want which be once
endured ; and though he felt pride in contemplating his our
elevation, and his exaltation in the scale of society, he looked down
with affection upon those who were still struggling with &dyer.
sity. He was the person whom it behoved the government to attach to
itself by kindness, and by conceding his rights, and the firmest redone
might be placed on his fidelity. If any gangs of persons were fornati
with the design of setting the law at defiance, such persons as he let ti;e:
be ready to join hard and heart in resistance to them. (Hear, hearoo
No thinking man, who reflected upon the subject, would mourn
that the safety of the country rested upon any other basis than a
regard for the security of property ; and when society was founded
upon that basis, the coronet was in no danger of being touched.
nor a jewel of the diadem of being soiled. (Hear, hear.) He (the
Lord Advocate) had, therefore, no distrust of this 101. qualification, not
could he conceive by what process of deduction a contrary conclusion
had been formed. Had the bill done the reverse, and intended to re.
duce the qualification, there might be some reason in the ejection.—
There were two classes of disaffected persons in the country. One ci
sioed of legal, industrious persons, in comfortable circumstances, so:,
though an almost unaccountable number, were excluded from what Oro
considered to be their right, and therefore felt vexation and resents:ono
(Hear.) When matters were discussed in that house, affectirg
the interests of Manchester, was it unlikely that the inhabitants of that
great town should be dissatisfied at their exclusion from the privilege of
electing a representative, which was given to pot-wallopers? Nor war
they unreasonably dissatisfied : (hear, hear.) The next point to be con-
sidered was, that men so dissatisfied, and rendered passionate and cr
aspemted, were apt to entertain uncharitable feelings towards the legit.
lature, which refused them their rights. The second class, from who
cruse he could not say, perhaps by distress operating upon their pass
sioos, perhaps excited by the scenes which had taken place
in a neighbouring country, certainly incited by inferno.%
publications, were ready to proceed to greater lengths. Then
was a set of doctrinaires, who were against all law, for they bated
law and hated authority, and would plot against them when they
mold, and would be ready to riot in the license of disorder. He
(the Lord Advocate) admitted that there were such men in the com-
a) but would any man tell him that these were the nick who peti-
tioned for reform? Not they ; they cared not for Parliamentary Re-
form; they went far beyond that. (Cheers.) They cared nothing far
Zing, for Lords, or for Commons. (Hear.) Their maxim was, e sett
man for himself, and Gird, or some other person, for all. (liter.
bear.) There being persons discontented, reasonably discontented.
the one bad a tendency to graduate into the other, and men
who were only desirous to seek their own just rights, were tempted. fc
the refusal of those rights, to coalesce with the others. alto dal nil
they could to be identified with them. (Cheers.) From the firs:
hour that he had paid attention to this subject, he had son :be
necessity of conceding to men who asked nothing but their rights, art:
thereby segregating them from the others, and not by a refusal, alienate
them, and create that just excitement which would make them listen to
those who said that this house was a mockery,—that it was cert.
Erred to creatures of its own,—that whilst it took exorbitant taxes
out of the pockets of the people, it would not admit the tax-payers
amongst the constituents of the representation. (Hear, hear.) .f hr
was asked shat was the evil which the existing system generated. and
what was tire good which the present measure promised, he would sal.
the evil was the growing and imminent peril of driving a great propor-
tion of the distressed population into excess, by the denial of their just
demands, or generating among them feelings of reprobation and Cv7.•
tempt. He granted that no reform would satisfy the artfully bad 4r.,1
desperate class. A reasonable reform would not satisfy inireasonalis
men ; hut from the very force of the terms, it would satisfy reasensbn;
men ; and if the reasonably dissatisfied were made contented, shouL
we not be better able to deal with the unreasonable. (Cheers.)—
The evil was great and imminent ; and he wished to draw t.
firmament between the pure waters above and the impure stripes of coo
ruption below. The effect of this bill would be an infusion of 500,00
new constituents, who would create an additional phalanx for the pro-
tection of the authority and the loyalty of the kingdom. He was no
afraid of the effects of the spirits to whom he had alluded, if no ammo-
vase made to put down the claims of reasonable men, and if there err
'less frequent instances of a contemptuous indifference to the poor—
(Cries of "No").—if men were treated as If they could center n•
well as receive favour. which would tend to knit moo!
together. Either they must have some distinction of nmlsr....
as the minimum standard of a vote, like to that which be so,
down, or they should have recourse to Mr. Horne Tooke's plan o
allowing each holder of property a number of votes in proportion to tn.
amount of his property. The while use and end of the represerttato:
system was the protection of property, therefore the ladder of proper.
bad a right to a voice in the representation. (Hear, hear.) It the-o,
followed that the voter should be the holder of some permanent an
.
tangible amount of property, be that amount what it eta:
for who that had no such species of property, bat eked out on.:
fluctuating and uncertain means of mere subsistence, could nor%
that e'eep interest in the well-being of that legislature tritkt.
watched over the interests of bond fide property ? and he knew net silt.
lower standard of this permanent property they could well take. aiy
things considered, than the 10!. rate of the noble lord's bill. (Ht"r:
It ::as curicus to observe how extremes met, in the objection of
hon. member for Preston and of the right hon. baronet (Peel) onin's:!'
to this minimum rate of franchise: the former calling out for a boosi
walloping, almost pauper franchise, like that in force in hasten
borough; while the right hon. baronet, in the same breath, COAL:t r.
the Preston franchise, that he appealed to it as a proof and as a tonalpt
ant boast, that every order of the state was in some way or oilier ter oort.
~
ed in that house. To both these, for the nonce auxiliaries,
the one answer—a true and lasting re p resentative system must beet
property for Its basis ; and you must have some minimum standod.:!y
;,
which you can ascertain whether the individual seeking the pense`....',-
of the elective franchise has so much permanent property as ‘ll'
him an interest in observing the decisions of the legislature. 1, ' "

«;:at lie had been saying was sound in principle, many inestimable be.
resits must flow from a reform of the representation of that House._
In the first place, it was the only means of averting the evils to which
i., had before alluded as the necessary offspring of the danger
arising from discontent,—graduating into disaffection—and from
ti again
• graduating into complete insurrection. (Hear, hear, hear,
esr • hear.) Would any man venture to tell him that the remedy
il'ot that discontent lay in the hands of those whose maxim it was that
the;, and not the people themselves, were the best judges of the people's
interests ? (Hear.) They did not know the people's interests as well as
ley did themselves, for if they did, they would know that the gratifi.
3tion of their legitimate wishes was an enjoyment to which the people
had a jest tide. (Hear.) Among those legitimate wishes, a reform
f that house just now partook of the torrent fury of a passion,—
.t, that to refuse it was not only unwise but dangerous. (Hear,
tsar, bear.) Another advantage of which a reformed Parliament
could be the parent would be, the great practical influence which it
could exercise on the minds of the people in opening their eyes to a
:onviction of their best interests, and this it would acquire from its
effording great facilities for the conveyance to it of the feelings and
welts of the people (hear). He did not mean by this that that house
'should be a mere echo of the popular will,—that its discussions and
lecisions should be guided by every enthusiasm, indignation, or zeal,
the public mind—hut that the public mind should possess a ready
-.whence within its walls (hear, hear). Would any man tell him
.hat such was the case under the present system ? Had not abuses
been habitually persevered in, on account of the tardy influ.
ince which public opinion had on the acts of the legislature?
Was it not true that wars had been protracted for years after
the people were sick of them, and pined after peace ? (Hear).
Was it not true that a system of official misapplication of the public
money had been persevered in, for want of an efficient popular control ?
Was it not true that the slave trade had been persevered in years after
public opinion had held it up to scorn and indignation Was it not
'rue that abuses in the criminal law were persevered in till the feelings
of the people, long awake to their enormity, were roused to a pitch
that a remedy could not be longer withheld ? Were not all these facts
true of the present system, and were they not incompatible with a re-
armed parliament ? Why then hesitate to effect this reform ! Could
there—to quote the happy language uttered that evening by the right
hon. Secretary for Ireland—be a more dangerous aggravation of
on evil, than to wilfully delay granting what you could not
much longer refuse, and to add to the demand of the public mind that
resolution of despair which would thanklessly wrest from you what
might now be gracefully tendered and received ? (Loud cries of
" blear.") Could any man shut his eye to the fact, that to delay an
efficient measure of parliamentary reform was to aggravate all those
evils of which its advocates maintained it to be the remedy, and of which
its opponents declared it to be the precursor ? The great machine of
public opinion was making, and would make, its way in spite of all ob-
stacles ; therefore it behoved them to prevent a dreadful crash against
those who would fain impede its course, by widening the passage, so
:hat it could pass on steadily and with safety to all : (cheers.) Now he
was not so absurd as to hold out the reform he was then &deo-
:ailing as the panacea of the ills of the country. By no means ; they
rho thus represented it, and there were such, were mischievous pm.
tenders, if not designing traders, in public delusion. (Hear, hear.)
But he considered it the essential condition of the future safety and
prosperity of the country, and he considered it as a great measure
which could not be much longer delayed, and of which every delay was
a tenfold aggravation of the evils which all must admit called for re-
medy. It was worse than idle to say the present cry for parliamentary
reform was but a tempuraty ebullition oc popular excitement—for it
was the expression of a long felt public grievance, to which existing
circumstances might communicate a force of tone, hut could not
generate. It was true that the demand for reform was usually louder in
periods of distress and of political excitement, as it was also true that
the late memorable transactions in neighbouring states might haveadded
to that excitement. But it was no less true, that the demand for reform
was never dead, even in the calmest periods, and that renewed, it was
like a giant after sleep, with increased strength and influence. In or.
dinary times, the tide of discontent might flow on without sensibly
endangering existing institutions, but only that it might in times of
excitement rush on with a spring-tide fury, overwhelming all obstacles.
(Cheers.) Therefore let them watch the tide while they could, and
avoid the consequences of its impeded fury. They had been told, and
he believed truly, that had, no later than 1828, the franchise of East
Retford been transferred to Birmingham, there would not exist the
present excitement with respect to reform. But. unfortunately for its
opponents, it had not ; and now, the cup being full, a single drop made
an overflow. (Hear, hear.) The people's just expectations were then
rased only to be disappointed ; the smouldering embers had now caught
flame, and must either end in the destruction or purification of the in.
stitutions which had created them. (Hear, hear.) There were three
circumstances which he conceived had hastened the dangerous heated
state of the public mind, which the opponents of reform would now
madly aggravate. The first was the contumelious treatment, in that
House and in another place, of the Bill for transferring the franchise
of East Retford to—as was originally proposed, and as the people
had just grounds for expecting—to one of the large unrepresented
manufacturing towns. (Hear, hear.) The next was the abomi-
nations of the late general election; and the third was the mon-
strous proceedings in Newark, and analogous mockeries of represents.
lion. ( Hear.) To these might be added the absurd declaration of the
hor. member for Edinburgh, respecting a reform of the representation
in szutiand ; that the people of that country were indifferent on the sub.
net, or content with that system in force. What wits the consequence
of this declaration ? Why, that the petitions which formerly received
hut 8.000 or 9,000 signatures, now were signed by the intelligence and
r.:speetability of that country to the number of 21,000 persons ; one
half of whom, before the declaration, never had signed any petition of
the sort. (Hear, hear.) On this point he could speak, not only from his
private knowledge, but from those official enquiries which he had felt
it to be his duty to institute—and therefore he could not be gain-
said—and lie thought it a matter well worthy of the attention of
these who shut their eyes in a truly blind obstinacy upon the
progress of events beyond their own immediate circle. It was true that
the lawless thirst for innovation, but not reform of which he had made
mention, was not yet discernible in Scotland, (with the exception of a
temporary disturbance connected with a demand for higher wages in the
retambourhood of Glasgow, the country was perfectly calm and peace-
:Me); but let them beware that they did not aggravate the demand for
reform of the Scotch people, now so rife, into that species of discontent
which fitted men to coalesce with those lawless prowlers on good order
.:hick ahoundedlin times of great unredressed public grievances. The
people of Scotland had a preservative against such unions in their cha-
racteristic good sense and intelligence—of which, perhaps, a better proof
could not he cited than the evidence given before a committee
a that house, some two or three years tem, by a couple of half-
starved weavers of Glasgow, which the Society of Useful Knowledge,
in their late tract concerning the advantages to the poorer classes of
machinery and the consequent evils of destroying it—evidence which
evinced the soundest knowledge of the subject, and would be creditable
to cry elms of society. The witnesses declared their sense of the ad-
vattaaes to the public of all improvements for the means of facilitat.
ing production; and. therefore. deprecated the then popular out- I
my against machibery, adding, that they placed their hopes of
relief from their distress in the claims upon the wealthy,
which their good conduct and industrious habits entitled them
to. (Hear. hear, hear.) And this brought him hack to a point
which he was nearly overlooking, which, if true, as he thought it
was, was important—he meant the advantage of a reformed parliament,
in disabusing the less enlightened of mischievous delusions over the pre.
sent system. At present that class which constituted the most numerous
portion of the condolence of the more open boroughs and counties must
naturally feel, when told of the zeal with which their grievances were I
advocated in that house, and of the profitless Inuit, nevertheless. which
.1, that tile cause of all their grievances lay in the system of mis.
gOVCTIII:,ent under which they had so long laboured. ( Hear, hear.) Tie
. ()maim me of such an impression evidently we', 'hat there woo Ito
remedy for the distresses and grievances of the working classes, under
the present system of government—(hear); and that the messenger
which they had sent to the land of promise had found all bar.
renness and no fertility in it. (Hear.) But from the confidence which
'hey must necessarily place in a virtually reformed parliament, they
ti mild learn that there were evils incident to their lot, which no legia-
laoire could prevent or remedy, and they would consequently bow with
patience to the ways of an immutable Providence. (Hear.) They would
earn besides, that much slander had been uttered to them of the feel-
ings of the higher classes towards Omit condition and their sufferings.
And indeed, if on no other ground, he hailed the appearance of the
hen. member for Preston in that house. That hon. niember would,
' etas sure, ave.admit that whatever might h been his preposses.
%tons on entering it. that it bestowed a sympathetic ear to the griev.
anees of the people. (" No, no." from Mr. Hunt—cheers and
l.iughter.) Well, then, if such were the hon. member's opinion, he
11-pert they would soon disabuse him of his prejudice. ( Hear.) He
%mild admit, at least. that the sufferings of the people were not now
made a matter of taunt, or jest, or MITP•3I, hut that they were listened
at respectfully. ('• Hear." front Mr. Iltint) ard he hoped the hon.
inemlar would state the fact to that numerous hotly out of doors, over
4h!ch he exercised so great an influence. One wend with reference to
ghat hail been said by the right hon. hart. ( reel) opposite. touching the
hreat of a dinolution of that house in the event of a failure of the m-
eat rrieseere. The right hon. bar. reproached them with having sur-
entkred retie judgment to their tears. instead of their fears to their
agginert. Now the difference between the right honourable hart. and
advocates of the measure was this—that we, the latter, are afraid
'T the consequences to the country of denying the people their just
Ins—they, the opponents. of the consequence to themselves
A granting them. (Hear, hear, hear, hear.) We are afraid
nut to rin justice to the people, while they profess to apprehend that a
tnaceerien to the people of their just rights' ust end in the perversion
of their moral feelings. (Loud cries of Hear.) We propose& remedy
for not only admitted ills, but a preventive of far greater, which they
soald reject from a blind perception of their own and the national in-
t. rests. We would grant the people their just demands, were it only to
I rereca cur being compelled, at a I etc period, granting them their un-
just onte.—while they would perpe wait a system which can only end
m tulsion, and still greater ill, than they, or perhaps any man, can
( Hear, hear.) Let them pause ere it be too late. The right

hon. gentleman sat down amid loud cheers, having thanked the house
for the attention with which It had listened to him.

Mr. HUNT having been alluded to by the right hon. gentleman, I
felt it right to say, that he had been misunderstood. What he had
said was, that in his mind every man liable to be called out to serve
in the militia should have a vote for the representatives who made that
call. Ile never could mean to extend the franchise to paupers, as the
law of England disqualified all paupers from voting.
Mr CROKER said, that if, under any circumstances, he had risen
to address so full a house at so late a period of so protracted a debate,
he should have been aware that he should stand much in need of the
indulgence of the house ; but on the present occasion, he felt it more
than ordinarily necessary to request its patient and indulgent atten-
tion, whilst he endeavoured to deliver his opinion on this most im-
portant subject. He assured the house, that if he had not
been thoroughly convinced that this was the most impor-
tant, the most vital question that had ever ben agitated within
its walls, there were personal reasons in abundance which would have
prevented him from addressing it. He had heard with great delight,—
for delight was different from assent,—the eloquent and ingenious ad.
dress which had just been delivered by the learned lord. He confessed,
however, that there was one part of the learned lord's speech, which, in
his opinion, might have been spared. He did not conceive it to be
either parliamentary or prudent in the learned lord to cast insinuations
against the hon. gentlemen who sat on the opposite side to himself, as
if they were persona who deserved to be stigmatized for being members
of those corrupt places which were about to be disfranchised, (hear),
ar.d who were only by sufferance allowed to be poresent at that
debate, to plead for what was technically called, a long day.
The learned lord, with an authority which a place like his could alone
give, had told them that the strict rules observed in courts of justice
would exclude from the decision of this question a majority, if not the
whole, of the gentlemen around him (Mr. Croker) who were opnoted
to the proposition of the noble paymaster of his Majesty's forces. 'Now,
with all submission, he would tell the learned lord that that was not the
law of Parliament ; nay,more, that it was not the law of common sense ;
and he would further tell him, that though he might have overlooked
the observation, when coming from inferior authority, and might have
treated it with what it deserved more than observation, yet out of respect
to:the situation of the learned lord, he would give a reply to that observa-
tion, and would add to it this remark—that if he were surprised at hear.
ing such an observation come from a gentleman of the learned lord's
profession, he was doubly surprised at hearing it come from a gentle-
man in his situation, whose own seat in that house was of that descrip.
tion which, as he had been told In the plain honest statement of the
hon. member for Preston, was suspected of being more than fictitious.
(Loud cheers from the opposition, in the midst of which)—
Mr. KENNEDY rose to order. There had been presented against
the return of the Lord-Advocate a petition, which had been referred to
an election committee. He put it to the house whether it was usual
for members, even of such authority as the ex-Secretary of the Admi-
ralty (hear), to anticipate what might be the decision of the corn.
mince sworn to try the merits of that petition. (Loud cries of " hear.")
The SPEAKER said, that if he could have foreseen that the ob-
servation of the right hon. member on the floor would have been taken
in the light which it had been taken, or that it had been intended in
that light, he hoped that he should not have been backward in calling
the right honourable member to order. The reason why he had not
intemtpted the right honourable member on the score of order, de-
pended upon his understanding of what the right hon. meinber had said,
and upon his knowledge of the right hon. member's intention in mak-
ing that statement. He understood the right hon. member to coin.
plain of a statement made by the learned lord in his speech, that a
certain number of members were to be disqualified from stating their
opinions on this measure, because the boroughs fur which they then sat
were to be disfranchised by it. Further than that, the right hon. gen.
tleman not only wondered at the quarter from which the observation
came, but also at its coming from a person in the learned lord's situa-
tion, inasmuch as the learned lord was himself returned to the house for
a seat of this description, and must be aware that his right to his seat
was disputed by others, inasmuch as it was even now forming the sub.
ject of a contest before a committee. (Hear, hear.) lie did not conceive
that any thing which had fallen from the right honourable member on
the floor, could be interpretated as giving either a determination or a de-
cision on the merits of that petition, much less as haring been uttered
with any intention of inflaming the feelings of such members as might
be the sworn judges on that petition. (Hear, hear.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said that lie should not have risen upon
this point of order, if his apprehension of it had been the same as that
of Mr. Speaker ; but he wished to remind the house that the right hon.
member for Aldborough had said that the seat of the learned lord was
suspected of being more than fictitious. It appeared to hint that such
words ought not to he used of any member of Parliament whose right
to his seat was to be tried before sworn judges on an election committee ;
and therefore he thought that the right hon. gent. was not in order.
.11Ir. KENNEDY said, that if he owed an apology either to the
Speaker or to the House for the step which lie bad just taken, lie was
ready to make it ; but, with all deference to the Speaker, he conceived
that such language as the right honourabl: gentleman had used was
calculated to mislead the judgment of gentlemen who might have to sit
as sworn judges on the petition against the learned lord's return.—
(Cries of " Chair.")

Mr. CHOKER said, that he received without impatience the Inter.
ruption of the hon. and learned member for Ayr. He wished, how.
ever, that the hon. and learned member had been more vigilant before
he interrupted him, and he trusted that the lesson which he had just
received would render him more vigilant hereafter. He trusted also,
that when he heard it represented that hon. gentlemen on his (Mr.
Croker's) tide of the house were sitting there as fictitious nitre.
sentatives (hear, hear, from the opposition.) his legal knowledge,
his personal candour, and his parliamentary jealousy, would not
induce him to interfere when he heard such a representation
hurled back upon those who invented it. (Hear, hear, hear.)
It appeared to him that the most remarkable point in the
speech of the learned lord was the boldness with which he essayed, and
the ability with which he overturned, the chief statements of the speech
of the noble lord who had asked leave to bring in this bill. The learned
lord began by asking, " Is it possible that at this time of day you can
be debating on your constitution as it stood in the days of the Tudors or
the Stuarts ?—don't you know that in the last 40. or I should rather
say, in the last 2 years, new lights have sprung up in the world, new
principles have gone abroad, new elements of consideration have been
opened ; and that it is upon the experience of the last 40, or perhaps
I should rather sae, of tit: last 25 years, that the question now before
the house is to be decided ?" But the noble Paymaster of the
Forces went back not only to the times of the Stuarts and the Tudors,
but even to the times of Edward I. and to the statute " de tallagio non
concedendo." He showed his-learning—he exhibited to the house the
ancient form of Parliaments—and he held up his hands and implored
the people of England to revert to their ancient constitution. The
learned lord however, came with a second, and he would add with a
better sight, and said, " There is no question here about any statute
of Edward I.—the question here is of the French revolution—of the
Belgian revolution—of the disorders that are abroad—of the blasphemy
and extraordinary excitement of the lower classes," which he, by the
by, would allay with every kind of fresh excitement. (Hear.) The
learned lord meets a mob determined to break into his cellar, sad to
quiet them he gives them brandy. (Lnuti cheers, and cries of " No,
tei." from the Lend Advocate.) He (11r. Croker) said that this was'
a just description of the learned lord's argument, and before he (Mr.
Croker) had dor.e with him. the learned lord should be obliged to con.
fess it. (Hem, hear.) The learned mid had told them that lie took
his stand on the petitions of a supplicating people. He had .old them
to look at those petitions; he bad told than that those petitions OW, not
come from the dangerous classes of the community : he had told them
that they were the petitions of those more favoured orders of society
which the noble Paymaster of the Forces wished to introduce
into political life; and he concluded all by telling t::cm,
that if they did not grant the prayers of these petitions,
they tan great risk and danger of convulsion. (Hear, hear.)
He would take the liberty of asking the learned lord whether he
read petitions on which he professed his readiness to take his stand? He
(Mr. ('raker) was sorry to say that he had read upwards of MI of them
tor a purpose which he would proceed to explain as concisely as he could
to the House. He challenged the other side, out of the whole mass of
petitions which they row wielded as weapons against his side of the
House to produce one solitary petition, in which the petitioners stated
that they would be satisfied with this extent of Parliamentaty Reform.
• (Cries of bear," from Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Hunt.) In the many
thonsa, d petitions which he had recently read, there a ere only two or
t ti-rce worded with that happy generality which led the reader to expect
cvtry thing or nothing from tncm. The rest were unanimoas in
tiletr language and their players; (hear) and he had selected one
of them to read to the howl t, because it was couched in moderate lan.'
gu .ge, because its arguments were placed in regular order, and because
it was on.: of the best specimens which he could find of the demands of '
the pettpl.t. It was the petition of the I.rtisans of Merthyr Tydvil. in
the county of Glamorgan, a large manufacturing place, where a great
mass of intelligence had, he supposed, been collected together. That
petition asked for four things. The fitst was the right—and they called
it the just right--of having all placemen dismissed from the House of
Commons. (Hear, from Mr. Hunt.) The second was, the right of hay.'
ing annual. or at least triennial Parliaments. (Hear, again from lie.
Hunt.) The third was,—thrt which would now be given them by
the noble lord's measure—the rittlit of having all the large towns and
populous districts of the country represented in the House of Com-
mons, and that those close and decayed boroughs containing but few
inhabitants, which now return members to parliament. should no longer
enjoy that right. (Loud cheers from the ministerial benches.) The
fourth was the right of every man to have a sore in the election of
members of the House of Commons, who is in any way called upon to
contribute to either natio:lst or local taxation direct or indirect.—

(" Hear," from Messrs. Hunt and O'Connell.) These were the
principal rights which the people at prawn' demanded. (Kean
hear, hear.) All the petitions were couched in the same terms, end
were directed to the same object : and when the learned lord, i:t re-
ply to the honourable member for Preetoa, said. " We hav2 heed
upon 101. as the rate of' assessment, at which we intend le de. re it e
Iline which must be drawn somewhere, he would tell hint that these pe-
titionere had drawn a line, which in his humble judgment etas much
better. It was not an arbitrary line . it was one for which, in the theory
of the constitution, there was some shadow of foundation ; and it was
this—that every man who was called upon to contribute to the exigen-
cies of the state should, either by himself or by his representative, have
a share in voting the taxes which he had to pay. So far would the noble
lord's measure be front giving satisfaction to the petitioners, that he was
convinced that it would give them nothing but an increase of demand,
wid an increase of disappointment (hear.) The learned lord had also
told them, that discontent was mischievous when it arose from the re-
tinal of sacred rights. He had then asked what had occasion. d tnet
cone ? He would leave the noble lord opposite to reply to tmet
question of his learned colleague. The noble lord, allttdt::g to the
argument of his late right honourable friend, Mr. Canning, that the
people were not anxious for Parliamentary Reform, adinhed that
there was meat weight in that declaration some years ago, " but,"
said the noble lord, I and others appealed to the patple on
that subject, and they responded to our call, ant:, as a
proof of it, we have collected an immense number of pe Mons in
favour of reform." That subject which was now rankling in the
heart and arming the hand of every man in the country against the
constituted authorities was in the following hopeful condition, until
the noble lord and his associates summoned it mice more iota life,
and gave it fresh powers of animation. In the year Int, nineteen
petitions only were presented in favour of reform. In the year 1822
the number was reduced to twelve. in the year 1823 the number
was twenty-nine. In the year 1824, there was no petition at
all in favour of reform. (Loud cries of " Hear.") The same was the
case in the years 1825, 1826, 1827, 1828, and 1829, (howl cries oil
" Hear.") In the Session of 1830, there were fourteen petition.. ;le.
sented in favour or reform. Then came the dissolution of Parliament.
The noble lord and his political friends then sat on the side of the
house from which he was addressing the chair, and they went from
that house to the elections, little dreaming that they would so soon
change their situation to the other side of the house. (Hear, hear.)
They looked about for a political lever (loud cries of hear,"
from the Opposition) to move the Government of the day from its
place, and then, from hustings and bow-windows, and their different
places of abode' they made addresses about reform to the people ; and
the country at length responded to their call : 650 petitions had been
the result of that appeal. Now he would venture to affirm that in all—
no, he would not say in all, for lie had not yet looked through those
which were presented in a mass on Saturday last, but that in the cast
majority of them—the most prominent demand of the petitioners was
for the abolition of tithes. The first object, then, of petitioners was the
reduction of tithes; the second was the reduction of taxation : and re-
form occupied only the third place in the prayers of the petitioners.
—There was hardly one instance in which reform was not asked as
a means of getting rid of tithes and taxation. (Hear, hear, hear.)
In this crusade of petitions against reform, a noble lord opposite was
most anxious that the respectable inhabitants of Cockermouth should
bear their pan in expressing their opinions on this important subject, and
straightway there came from Cockermouth a petition, which, for the mo-
deration of its language and of its desires, was most worthy the attention
of the house. [Here the hommember read the petition from Cockcrmouth,
which, complaining of distress and misery, asked for reform, for the also.
lition of the East India monopoly, the abolition of slavery, and of the
corn-laws, which latter the petitioners said had operated so prejudicially.
that the pestiferous demon of hunger stalked through the land, carry.
ing with it interminable ruin, and, by its baneful influence, bring.
ing many to an untimely end.] But the noble and learned lord who
had just sat down had not rested his case on such petitions as these.
The noble and learned lord had acted more prudently. Now his first
objection to this plan of the noble lord for reform was, that the noble
lord had introduced it under the name of an innovation, and that it was
so completely an innovation, that it overthrew the most valuable in.
stitutions of the state. He believed it to be unparalleled in the
annals of political history to put an end to so many political rights
without assigning a single reason for doing so, and without so much
all deigning to name many of them. Scot-and-lot voters were not
"mentioned ; potwallopers were not alluded to ; freemen were not
noticed; corporations were put forward only that the house might
be acquainted that they were to be utterly abolished ' • and in
place of these a quite new, untried, and unexampled right of
election created, not in one place by way of experiment, as in the case
ef
a disfranchised borough, to which there would have been no objection
as a means of trying the working of a popular theory, but throughout
the whole country. (Hear, hear.) In place of that mode of elettioa
which was acknowledged by the law and the constitution, the noble
lied proposed this novel fabric of his own, and farther proposed tomb
' It general. The noble lord had selected houses rated at 101. as a qua.
ligation; but why the noble lord had made this selection, the noble lord
had not condescended to inform them. He did not pretend to divine
the noble lord's reason for fixing upon that qualification, but this be
would say—namely, that it had always been his opinion, that one of
the greatest advantages of the constitution was, that they had
under it great varieties of franchises, and of rights of election, because
this circumstance offered a variety of modes by which men might enter
that house ; and he must affirm, that nothing could be more dangerous
than to put all the political power in the kingdom into the hand of one
particular class of persona, which would be the effect of the noble lord's
plan. (Cheers from the opposition.) If in popular places there pre.
veiled a panic,--or if hatred arose in such places to any particular pa.
son or party,—then there was a place of refuge to be found la
a borough; while, on the other hand, there was always such a
place as Preston, where voters might return any one they fan.
tied. (Cheers from the opposition.) The complexity of the Bri.
tish constitution, like the complexity of the universe, worked in
beautiful order, and yet the noble lord thought that he had per.'
formed a great work in getting rid of that. And now let them
see how this plan of the noble lord would work. He had looked into
the returns of the value of houses, and he had found that there were in
England about 378,000 rated houses. Those 3711,000 houses were di.
vided into 16 classes, and the three lowest classes comprised no less than
230,000. The consequence, therefore, would be, that by the noble
lord's plan, so far from property having a proportional influence, all
the power of election would be thrown into the lowest dare of house-
holders. (Cheers from the opposition.) The proportion of the lowest
to the highest class of householders was, he believed, still greater in
Scotland. See, again, the consequences of this. If it happened iniany
time that a minister could not find his way into that house, it
would be a matter of very little consequence; but if, in extraordinary
times, in a time of popular ferment, it were necessary that a :wheat
ministry should find seats, what but the most dangerous results must be
anticipated from the mode in which the noble lord would fix the elective
franchise throughout the kingdom ? But the noble lord bad told them
that he was obliged to draws line, and that therefore he had drawn a
line. The house would. doubtless, recollect that the hoe. member for
Callington had last night intimated his suspicions that the line
of the noble lord had been drawn partially. He too, had had his
suspicions on this subject; and lit was very remarkable to observe
the effects which this line had produced. The noble lord had told them
that he drew his first line at 2,000; but the noble lord gave no reason for
that. The noble told them that be had drawn his second line at 4,000;
but for that, also, he bad not condescended to give any reason. It was
all sic volts, sic jubeo, with the noble lord. However, such were the
lines. All below 2,000 were disfranchised—all that came up to 4,000
were to have the right of sending two members. There were no reasons
for these arrangements either. " These are my lines," said the noble
lord, " these my arrangements ; I can't tell you why 1 made them ; all
I can tell you is, that they arc lines and arrangements, and that you
may take them or leave them as you please." And now he was going
to call the attention of the house to a very serious point. He begged the
attention of the House, for he really did think that the observation he
was now going to make would be exceedingly important. (" Hear,
hear, hear," from the Opposition, and a laugh from the Ministerial
benches.") The Noble Lord then made two other lines,_
one he drew at 10,000, and the other at 20,000 ; and let them mark, to
all past the 10,000 he gave one member, just as to the boroughs of
4.000 ; and to all past 20,000, he gave just precisely the same number
of members as he gave to Knaresborough and Tavistock (hear, from
the Opposition Benches). He would put it to the noble lord how he
could justifythis to the country ; bow he and his colleagues—at least
his colleagues road hoc,—would justify this male of disposing of the
elective franchise ? (Hear). Now he had been curi ms to find out
the place which would mark the limit between the ford line of 2,000
and the happy line of 4,000: he had been the more carious to discover
the piece which would mark the gtearcr happiness of turning the comer
—the lucky corner—of 4,000; for all who did, were to be placed in a
condition of returning two reereeentativen although Belton, with
24,000 inhabitants, was to return only One. Let them see, then, where
the line of 4.000 directed its course. He should. however, mention
here,---and he said it with toe utmost candour.—that in pointing out
the circumstance to which he was about to allude, he did not mean to
make the elighti et personal imputation against the noble lord. If the
ease was a bed one, let it be recollected that it was a case of' the noble
lord's selection, not of his. Well, then, the borough which just
passed the Widge as the fiend was ready to catch it,—the fortunate
bor.mgh which escaped into the Elysium of undiminished pa.
nonage, was the borough of Mahon, in Yorkshire. (Cheers from
the opposition benches.) And how had this borough contrived to
escape? Oh ! fortunate Melton ; it had 4,005 inhabitants (loud cheers
and heighten front the Opposition), and therefore it escaped, whilst all
the rest of the country, except a few manufacturing counties, were dim.
franchised or mutilated of parts of their franchise. But the population
returns—ay, the population returns of 1821—they were the Codex of
our new Justinian. There had been Pitts, and Foxes, and Burke*, and
Shmidens, who had looked at the constituent body otherwise than nu-
merically ; who saw in the body of the people various interests, various
localities, various estates, and various conditions of persons ; and who,
when they approved of our constitution, approved of it because
every local spot had its local customs and its local jurisdiction
fitted for it; but our new Justinian woad not look at the works
of man in their large capacity. (" Hear, hear," and laughter

from the opposition.) No ; the :whir lord sat him down v. itlt the po-
pulation returns of 1821 before him, as the material, for u bran new
constitution, but surprised, no doubt, at finding himseif toured into, the
new Solon or a new Lycurgus. He had need hardly say that h.• had
no disposition to offend the noble lord, but he must affirm, that the
noble lord's mode of proceeding had been most narrow and most un-
statesmanlike, and that his plan would operate—no doubt, the
nobl e lord did not intend that it should so opende—with the
most flagrant injustice, and confer the must indecent p.cronag_
on a 'Mall number of boroughs. (s• Hear, heat, hem," front
the opposition.) Tre hou,e would be astonished at the swollen; I,e
was about to make to them. When they had last night merely asked
the noble lord a qu..stinn ahnot a return, the noble lord had appeared to
them very unreasonable. They asked fur more inforrnwion • hut the
noble lord said, No; there's my farthing candle; you dull base
that, or no light at all; for a blaze of light will alarm the people." Time
noble lord had told him that the inOrmation he required was on Ere
table. He knew o was. •• Here it b.," cold:hued the Lon. member,
I:ol,iiiig up a large folio volunh .
Lord JOHN 11USSELL.—That is not time voluoi• cortaining the

returns
Mr. CHOKER continued, the noble lord was rigitt. that was not
the volume, but it was one very nearly as large. But to return to
blalton, he had been told by an hon. friend of his. that the noble lid's
new &institution would not alter the mode of election at :i12:1110t1. He
undersrnxl that there was not much difference at Mahon between teen
anti lot, end house. of 101. reed and lot tete the mode ot g in
that 12.meagh. The same hon. frterd had told him that tie. number of
sneers in Mahon was about Simi, e !itch was a toletable good peasant:an
of voters in a population of ;keen. Happy Lord Fitzwilliam, who
limed almost alone and sate, whihr so many peeielted in the genetel
w What must be the power of that leviathan aristocrat.—
(Loud cries of `• Oh, oh.") Now. he entreated Celt he might he
not misunderstood. He considered lard Fitz ill! em ae Dyer
of the most amiable men alive ; and he would r.o:, ter the worie,
say one word which could give him a moment's uneasiness. or wince,
should have the slightest appearance of disrespect towards a Noble-
man who was sn much and so deservedly role ctcd.—(Cheers.)--
But he wits speaking of the thing, not of the man, and the Noble
Lord had lotted him to speak ot the thing, by dreu Mg the line
at 4,000, and under 4,005. Well, then, might he say. happy Lout
Fitzwilliani —(Cries of " Oin oh !") He would use any title,
then,—kt it be Lord anybody,—arid he would say again, happy was
tbat Lord that he had escaped utter:oslla by this inordinate and
dangerous power ; and most fortunate, too, was that Lord sheer
he owed hie safety and preserved such privileges, by means of the small
numetical majority of five. He did say that this circumstance was one
of the most extraordinary he had ever met with. Should the proposi-
tion of the noble lord, unhappily, be carried into effect by an act of tie:
legislature, the country, he feared, the country would find hem& er, to
it. sorrow, that ministers had left
" Ample room and verge enough
The characters of hat to trace."
—He had struck off sixty-two members of parliament at a blow, teal
his judgment was certainly quite unfettered in this summary and a nee.
what unusual distribution. Let gentlemen only observe how the beat.
ing measure, as the learned loni called it, was intended to opera!e. He
would first look to three wane in the North Riding of roekshir
there was Morpeth (fortunate Morpeth!) Richmond, and Think, c...•
taming a population of 10,0131 persons, et :deli were to send four parser. .
amongst them, at the rate of Ito 2,5e0 vo,ers. lie would then trite.
to the West Riding, and they teund Huddersfield, Helifes, and Wake-
field, containing a populaner. of 36,fehi semle, which yet were only to
be allowed three members, nataithetaatiMg the vast disproportion
between the places in point of wealth, intelligence. and numbers. (Hear,
Would it be be believed that such was actually the noble lord's propo-
sal ? Was Morpeth more important than Iludelerefield— was Rich.
mond better entitled to representation than Halifax—zed could Think
be deemed to possess higher claims than the lees-favoured to wit of Wake-
field ? Toes was a fact which it would be absolutely necessary for the
noble lord satisfactorily to explain to the country, :or morn assuredly
explanation was much wanted—(Hear, hear.) He brought a (harp•
against the noble lord—he accused him of not having duly coneidenil
the principles on which he avowedly came forward with this moittenteaa
ahetation.—(Cheers.) At the same time he would ran eaten to be
understood as desirous to fasten any imputmion of improper
motives ; but he did urge that the noble lord and his weak.-
tors had been guilty of gross, flagrant negligence—of a culpable de-
parture from the principle on which they had ostensibly propounded
there startling and extraordinary anomalies. It axe right that be should
also mention a town in the south of England which had perhape never
stood higher in public estimation than at the present thement in coon
sequence of the luminous, eloquent, and brilliant speech of in represen-
tative. He meant the borough of Caine. On looking over the volume
already named, which he would call Jttainian's Panacela, being the
only orthodox and fashionable book of reierence on these watters,lie found
this illustrieus tosen that had just narrowly turned the corner in tie
Magna Charla rather amusingly described as the Borough of Cain.
rind the Liberty of Bowood. (Laughter.) Such as addendum was
certainly ail-expressive of the great importance of the place shirk was
thus noticed in dignified juxtaposition with the foresaid liberty or
Bowood. The number of its inhabitants appeared to be 4.612, the
population of Tavlstock was 5,482, and that of finale/a:or nee and
Bedford, which were to return four members, was 19 400. and dote
boroughs, with so inconsiderable an aggregate pl.:dotter. we-e•
to be permitted to send eight int:lnhere to Parliament. What
if they should all fall into the hands of one imam, for let
it be remembered that it would require no very large properly to give
an individual a complete command over the entre. T,;cn the important
and opulent town of Blackburn was to return but one nieteher although
five times larger than Tavisteck which wau!d be suffered to seed two
(Hear). Bolton, in Lancashire, would have but one member, while
its population could not be taken at less than 22 000. Furthermore,
Bedford was to be given two, while Brighton. with 30.001) inhabitants,
would only be favoured to the extent of one, and yet Newpoit was to be
allowed two. Here were on one side 17 great towns peophd by
176,000 souls, and on the other a set of towns with a gross population of
20,000, which would enjoy a larger sit- re of the rapreeentation. In one
of the noble lord's former exhibitions, he had vehemently opposed an
hon. bart.'s plan of reform as inexpedient and impracticable ; whereto it
appeared that it was not more violent than this darling scheme of lets
own, and possessed the additional reeommendat :on of being clear, ain:-
ple, and intelligible ; for the proposition of the hon. baronet was merrle
that there should be one member for every 25,000 persons, and
electors in every number of that amount. The noble lord profes.eqi
act in compliance with the petitions of the public, but if that was hie
sole motive of action, why thus attempt to throw an apple of d
into the county of York? Did he suppose that Huddersfield, Ilalifas,
and Wakefield, would be satisfied with his intended diettibutten Wile
if he were disposed to be ever so favourable to the plan it the noble
lord generally, he should feel himself bound to resist it as blind, par.
tie], and di- proportionate in its operation. ( Hear, hear, hear.) All
is, too, was to be brought into action to satisfy the people forsouth ;
but how if the people would not be so satisfied ? They cried out for
bread, and he proposed to tender them a stone. (Oh, oh.) lie had not
the least doubt that, after the passing of this experimental measure, pe•
titione in ebundance would pour in from those aggrieved boroughs, de.
manding why they had not been placed on a footing with Morpeth or
Tavistock, and reeking a second reform on that which the noble bold
proffered to our acceptance. To Tavistock the Duke of Bedford had
always paid particular attention : he had stlerned it Ly his taste, digni-
fied it by his presence, and relieved it by his munificence. Vet they
were now to be told, that he would never permit any of his fa-
mily to MOMS the constituency, or offer themselves at; its
sentativca. Was it, then, actually come to that pass that it would be
held a tiisgace to the noble house of Russell to be returned to parlia-
ment from Tavistock? Got) forbid that the generous ennniSeetice art
a landlord should ever produce so deplorable a result ! But setting
that consideration wholly aside, might net Bolton justly complain that
it should only be allowed one member, when Tavistock had two ?
Now for a very few words on the nature of the noble lord's general pro.
position. Hon. gents. had called it a remodelling of the constitution,
but he wished to know in what sense they meant to employ that es.
pension. They likewise complained that it had been designated revo-
lutionary, yet, what else was it? (Cheers.) He did insist that it had
a decided revolutionary tendency ; but be acquitted those with whom it
originated of all intention to cause any such effect. Human nature,
however, would prove too strong for them, and if they once should he
enabled to put this mighty globe in motion down the political declivity,
let them not fondly hope hereafter to stay it for a moment in its eccen-
tric and resistless course, or think to stab the impetus which themselves
had urged. The democratic feeling of that house had formerly been exlii.
bited by a very decided manifestation in 1742, when a bill for the intlem.
nification of certain witnesses had been returned from the lords, on whom,
in consequence, a vote of censure was attempted to be passed by the
too detrocratical commons, Lord Strange (eldest son of the then Earl or
Derby) having actually moved a vote denouncing the House of Peers
ae an obstruction to justice. Was not a similar ebullition of revolu-
tionary turbulence likely to occur In future times again and again, until
the ruin of the constitution should be wholly consummated by the ulti.
mate operation of this destructive and much misnamed raceme of re-
form ? The learned lord opposite had employed great ingenuity ot
n ;mining, and no inconsiderable flow of language, to show •het the bi-
fluenee which was exercised by the Lords over the election ot certain
members of the Commons, was wrong in theory and injurious in prac-
tice. When he heard this course of argument, he could et help
feeling a little surprise at its tenour, end involuntarily reverted to
publication, of which the learned lord ought certainly to know some.
thing, for although he might not have actually written it. it had
been at least given to the world under hie sanction, and vet ethos
compotell by him, or by Mr. Brougham, to whom report, ::e be-
lieved, ascribed the article, at present mattered 11: !mewl-
might be the author was well worthy of praise. for sounder sense
Of closer argument he had never read. (sitar, hear ) Tee es.
tact quoted was from the July ncililler of the e.tliuLerl;4

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