Star.
London, England, 1822-03-15 00:00:00

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ever existed ? The Gentleman to whom behead
dressed himself, of whom he could not say too as
either for his industry or his talents in his situ'
answered with great simplicity, that. to the
his knowledge, there never had I—(Hear,ltea
a laugh).—He must also state, that during
time-he was there, there was not business enougi.
the situation—(lkar,,from Mr. Courtenay).—He
glad to see the Hon. Gentleman exert himself; for
as he got a higher salary than he had, he ought to
do something more for it ! (A laugh )..--The object of
the motion was, that the House should name a Com-
mittee, to see if what he represented on this subject
was true. The Noble Marquis opposite might ap-
roiat it if lie liked—he might be one of the Com-
mittee—tie Wit lion. Gentleman (Mr. Canning)
another, and any Grenville that pleased, and he de-
fied them to report otherwise than he had stated.—
li turned out that he was right, then he should
ask why were the persons composing this Board al-
lowed to sit in that House? lie really was shocked
to make any reference to the Constitution, but so long
as there were Statutes he might be permitted to
refer to theni. It was notorious, that the Statute of
the 6th of Anne declared that no one holding a place
under Government, except some specified, should
after that sit in that House. But here were four
Gentlemen in direct contradiction to that Statute.—
Though they were of no use at the Board, perhaps,
it was thought they might be in the House. The 15th
of George H. permitted every Secretary of State to
have a seat in the House, but not to have more than
or.e tinder-Secretary. He raised no question as to
the utility of oirial persons in the House, but he
asked if there ever was such a violation of common
seine, aii.l of the provisions of this Act, than to have
four persons there to represent the India Board, when
only one Secretary, and one Under-Secretary of State
were allowed ? For the latter there might be some
use—for the former none. There used to be lot-
merly a regular exposition of the affairs of the East
hdia Company. It was not so now, and he believed,
beyond moving a vote of thanks to the Marquis of
Postings, no motion had been made for some years.
TN° would be too much, four were preposterous, and
t. fict of their being permitted to be there, was a
roil of the decay of all proper interest about the
Constitution. He knew that one obvious answer to
la objections to the size of this establishment might
be, that the Company paid fur it all. The Com-
rany he knew dealt in tea ; but he did not know
cat there was anythitm in their Charter about deal-
ing in Members of Parliament!—(Load laughter).—
The sum of 26,0001. laid out in the purchase of Mem-
bers of that House would make a pretty addition to
the placemen already in it—(Laughter). But the
right view to take of this was, not what the Hon.
Members themselves cost, but what their votes cost
the country. The Learned Doctor opposite (Dr. Phil-
limore) for instance, cost a good deal. He was not
to be estimated at the cost of 26,0001. but as having
cost the country the 1,500,0001. raised by the Salt
fax—(Harr, hear, and a laugh). He begged their
attention to this, and he pledged himself to shew them
that he was, indeed, a most expensive article, this
Doctor—(Laughter' and cries of Order, order). Well,
tlmi, this Learned Doctor—the Learned Civilian, it
%%odd be in the recollection of the House, strenu-
iyisly opposed the repeal of the Salt Tax, when it was
proposed a short time ago. And when they came to
a division, it appeared that the Learned Doctor, and
his party, mak? lig four, were the champions of the Salt
Tax. He would not go into the question of whether he
was dear or cheap to the Company, it was sufficient that
he had cost the nation I,soo,oool.—(Laugleter).
If he and his friends had been upon that side of the
House, they would have obtained the repeal by two.
Here he could not refrain from quoting to the House
languagt, which he thought of a prophetic nature,
and which was the more entitled to consideration, as
it was the language of the good old countrymen of
that House. It was uttered during the latter part of
the Administration of Sir Robert Walpole, at the time
when the Gentleman in question had been supporting
a Mr. Sams, in his endeavours to pass a Place Bill to
lessen the influence of tyre Crown in that House. He
bad been nearly succe,sful in this laudable endeavour;
but the time came when Mr. Sams changed sides, and
it was the dilemma of the Country Gentleman in
missing hi. support, that created the sentiments to
which he had alluded. The Place Bill upon this oc-
casion was again brought forward ; but instead of
meeting its usual support, Mr. Sams opposed it. He
was sure that the sentiments then expressed would
appear interesting to the House, and meet the sup-
port of the new Board and the new President, when
be mentioned that the name of the speaker was Sir
Watkin Williams Wynn—(Laughter, and loud cries
• " Hear 1" from Sir Watkin Williams Wynn).—lie
assured the Hon. Baronet that no descendant of Sir
Watkin Williams Wynn need be ashamed of the sen-
timents he was about to quote, for they did honour
to the individual who avowed them. After referring
to the fate of his motion in the previous Session, he
said—" But I know that Gentlemen often change
their sentiments with their situations, and that their
notions about the Crown and the People display a
great variance, when delivered as from plain Country
Gentlemen, or as From the possessors of an office in
the State. Now if any of that kind should occur on,
the present occasion, it would no doubt tend to dis.
appoint thetnotion ; at the same time it would shew
that if place had no other tendency, it went at least
to bias the judgment, and to make persons think
that right, which before they thought wrong.--1
Now, it that was not the case with the Doctor, he
would be content to admit that there was nothing
prophetic in the language he had quoted—(A laugh).
But this Country Gentleman went on to anticipate, in
the most minute detail, what had since occurred to
his own blood. " For," said he, ." it is too much to
think that the judgment is not to be biassed by 5001.
or 1,0001. and, above all, by 5,0001. a-year !"—(Hear,
hear, and laughter). This was the language held
eighty years ago by a Country Gentleman. He was
a County Member, and speaking on the same sub-
ject as that on which he (Mr. Creevey) was then ad-
dressing the House, with this difference, that he moved
for a general reduction of placemen in the House of,
Commons, whilst his. (Mr. Creevcy's) motion only
called for inquiry into the utility of two of them.
Having done with the great men of the Board, he
would de,cend to the worthy Secretary (Mr. Comte;
nay), who, as he had nothing to do with the affairs
of India, must at least possess great art to be able to
Eet his salary raised three different times 7004 more

the
I for

' c7,',7F-Tme;

'than'tt Wel tekre IA held As sittiationi Por his oat
Part he had nreet asked fa; more, for he thought
that no public • *musk *as ever better paid, ape-
seially consid'ering haw liidrhe had to do. He no*l
/thought be had Made beim irresistible case for in-
quiry, and should etracihde by moving ...
14 That it be relivredta a. Met Coaunittee to gamine tutu
the dialsreat duties amazed tsiass sacs of the Oenesis"ners
couneren
foe the t of the Mike of India, by wheal the same
at. fil 1 and report the* didervaasess to the House of
bereopon."
Mr. 13 RTENAT Oetlared, that he was not in-
duced Auk early in the debate to offer himself to the
attention of the House in consequence of the personal
allusions that had been made to himself. He would
leave those who were the authors of the acts with re-
gard to him, as odious in the eyes of the Hon. Gen-
tleman, to answer him on that point. He would only
state, that upon his honour, from what he' knew of the
duties of the office, and of the manner he had dia.]
charged them—and he regarded it as a moral crime
to take a salary without doing ample duty for its
that he looked back with infinitely greater satisfac-
tion to the part he had performed- than the Hon.
Gentleman by his own account could do (Hear, hear).
From the moment he had seen the notice of the Hon.
_

Gentleman relative to the Board of Controul, he con-
fessed he had felt some anxiety as to the nature of it,
and knowing the relationship he had formerly had
with that Board, it did not occur to him that the Hon.

Gentleman meant to come down there, and with head
abased, and face suffused with blushes, confess with
shame that he had allowed himself to have held a

sinecure!—(Neer, hear). He expected too that he
would have included in his aspersions all those who
had held places like himself in that establishment.—
But although he did not hesitate to heap animad-
versiona on the most respectable Noblemen, he could
not help admiring the ingenuity with which he
evaded the task of including the Right Honourable
Member for Knaresborough (Mr. Tierney)—(Hear).
He had not dared to joke with him, well knowing
that lie was a pretty severe hand himself in that way.
With regard to the motion of the Hon. Gentleman,
he had to observe, that he called for an inquiry which

should never be granted, but on a very strong case
being made out. It was to show that no such case
had been made out that he offered himself so early

to the attention of the House, conceiving himself
competent, from a ten years knowledge of the duties
of the office, to give the House information a 3 to the
important nature of them. The Hon. Gentleman had

rightly, stated, in saying that it was, at the outset of
this Institution, attempted to perform the great and
important duties of the Board without salary. But it
was to be observed that, at that period, there was not
one attached to it who had not a salary from some
ocher source; and, in 1792, the system of paying the
Commissioners began. In describing the nature of
the duties they had to perform, he need not expatiate
on the immense extent of the British possessions in
India, which were entrusted to the care of this B ,ard ;

but he would observe that the extent of their duties

was not to be estimated by extent of territory ; for
the management of the affairs of that country was
infinitely more intricate, and multiplied than those of
any other. Every single act of every Judge, and of
other Officers, to which no importance was attached
in other countries, underwent the strictest scrutiny
by this Board, as well as by other powers—( Hear).
First, it passed under the observation of the Supreme
Council in India; next it underwent the examination
of the India House ; and, lastly, the act itself, and
the acts of these bodies, were subjected to a minute,
constant, systematic, vigilant controul, which he was
there to assert was daily performed at the Board of
Contreul—(Hear,hear).—He did not blame the Hon.
Gentleman because he did not perform part of a simi-
lar system in his time ; for the Board had taken
many years to grow up to its present station of im-
portance—(Hear, hesr).—He declared before GoD,
that if he was giving evidence on oath in a Court of
Justice he would say nothing else—(Hear, hear).—
Considering the short time the Hen. Gentleman be-
longed to the Office, it could not be charged upon
him as blame, for it required two or three years to
become acquainted with the nature of the business.
He particularly pointed to the revenue and judicial
departments, which were peculiar to this Board.—
Since 1807, a completely new organization of the
Board had taken place. It had been divided into
departments corresponding with the great divisions
of the Indian Empire, and he was sure that not a
paragraph came from India or went to it that did
not undergo the most particular, and, in some
cases, enlightened scrutiny—(Hear, hear, hear).—As
to the Judicial Department and that for the collection
of the Revenue, the whole merit of that important
change was due to a clerk in the Office—a Gentle-
man he believed of the name of Cummings—(Hear,
hear). The effect of this change had been to bung
upon the Board of Controul a load of business, and
that most important, which was no more to be com-
pared to the small admeasurement of the Honourable
Gentleman, than the affairs of the county of Rutland
were to be compared to those of the whole British
Empire. Without taking any merit to himself, he
owned that since he had been connected with the office,
he had given his best attention to its duties ; but he
was utterly incapable of placing a clear view of the
whole before the President. At the same time the
President received the most efficient and meritorious
Assistance from the junior Commissioners of the Board.
The Noble Member for Rochester, for instance, had
applied himself to the Judicial and Revenue Depart-
ment, and bad mastered the subject in a manner that
did him high credit. With regard to himself, he had
not the least objection to have his conduct examined.
He devoted as much of his time to the Board as be
was able; but still he must confess that he wars
not competent to lay all the mass of business be-
fore the President. If they had six Commissioners
more, he would undertake to give them all as much
business as would last them for a fortnight—Wear).
The largest bundles of papers that came before that
House were mere abridgments to what they had to
deal with at the Board of Controul. And what did
it signify, whether there were those regular meetings
of the Board, which the Hon. Gentleman seemed to
think so necessary to the dispatch of business? When
his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning) was President;
be was rather averse from form; and although he
(Mr. Courtenay) did not regularly take his seat at the
bottom of the Board with his pen behind his ear, did
it follow that the buiiness was less effectively done ?
With regard to the discontinuance of opening an
Indian Budget to that Houses it had taken place from

.

,;

ig .

'the tffte the iteime
it airtre the effect of
They had et. . this rozut
business beitihrthe
war, had in sift months he
toKIM out tb India most
lacing to judicial questions. _
sufficient grounds to the House for teiecunA
lion. He really did not expect that the Hon, Gen-
tleman, fifteen years after quitting the situation in
which he acquieed his ignorance, would have brought
forward such a motion as the present. Such as it
was, for the reasons he had given he should meet it
by a direct negative—(Hear, hear).
Mr. TIERNEY said, there seemed to be two ob-
jects in the present motion. First, to inquire whe-
ther it was necessary there should be so many Com-
missioners of the Board of Controul, and in the next
place, if it was necessary, to know whether it was fit
that all of them should have seats in Parliament?
He knew not whether the Hon. Secretary, in speak-
ing of him, had imputed to him negligence in his
office of President of the Board of Controul. As to.
the importance of the Biard of Controul, no one was,
more convinced than be was of the weight of ttsel
business, or of the merits of these who had really exe-
cuted it. But on the question, whether three Com-
missioners or a more limited number were necessary,
he should say, on his honour, that he believed three
were not necessary. He did not recollect during the
time he held the office„thilt what were formally called
Boards were held, but the same effect was produced
by the members being in constant communicatiors,
and comparing notes on different subjects. As to
his Noble Friend Lord Morpeth and the Right Hon
Gent. now no more (Mr. H. Addington), he con-
fessed that he had received the most essential assist-

ance from them. It was the greater merit in theso
Gentlemen that they had undertaken the labour of
making themselves masters of Indian affairs, at a
time when it was not thought necessary in those
offices. Those who had witnessed the manner in

which Lord Morpeth had brought forward Indian
que.tions in that House, must be ready to bear wit-
ness to the extent of his information. And from Mr.

Hiley Addington he received every assistance on ju-
dicial and revenue questions. The mass of the busi-
ness, however, fell on himself, and all responsibilityr;
for he considered he would bean unworthy President

of the Board of Controul, who would shrink for a
moment from responsibility, because he was at the
head of what was called a Board. Let them produce
to him any paper signed by him at that time, no
matter who else signed it, he took on himself the
whole responsibility—(bear).—The Hon. Secretary
had said, that in 1807 the dispatches from India were
not minutely investigated. All he could say was,
that there were none passed through the Board of
Controul in his (Mr. Tierney s) time, without being
subjected to a most minute examination ; and that
there was no dispatch sent out to the East Indies
without being most rigorously examined. But it
would be impossible for three or ten Commissioners
to do this without such clerks as there were at the
Board of Controul, and at the India House. The
House would be led into error, when they were told
that all the dispatches were examined by the Secre-1
tary and Commissioners. Ali these dispatches were
first sifted most completely at the India House by
persons of the first abilities, and all the facts that
called for a judgment brought out and distinctly
stated ; then they were examined by persons of per-
haps equal capacity at the Board of Controul. Thus
the great bulk of them was taken away ; and as there
was not the slightest reason to suspect negligence,
and much less foul play, in the clerks at the India
House, every matter on which a doubt could arise,
was distinctly, accurately, and by name, brought
under the view of the Board—(Hear, hear, hear).—
Now the Hon. Secretary was going a little too far to
say that two or three years were absolutely necessary
to initiate a man in the business of the office (Hear);
for if so, it would be well, on re-modelling the Com-
mission, always to preserve one who had served an
apprenticesbip—(Hear, hear). Instead of that, all
the Board had just been sent to the right-about, and
a completely new one, which, according to their Se-
cretary, must be altogether incompetent, had just
come in—(Hear, hear). He (Mr. Tierney) had taken
the office with peculiar advantages; for odd as the
taste was, he had applied himself to Indian subjects
as an amateur, and had had some battles with the
first Lord Melville. He could say, however, that
though there was not any office in appearance more
at duous, or in which he was more grateful for assist-
ance, still he could declare that three Commissioners
were not necessary. He should take the liberty of
suggesting an Amendment on the motion, by which
he thought a greater advantage might be obtained
than by the original one. His proposal was to con-
solidate this Board with the office of the third Secre-
tary of State, and thus to make a general office for
the Colonial Department. The motion would, there-
fore, run, not whether there might be so many Com-
missioners, or whether they should all sit in Parlia-
ment, but whether the department of the colonies,
now under Lord Bathurst, might not be superadded
to the Board of Controul. The Secretary of the Co-
lonial Department, as he was now called, had for-
merly been considered necessary on account of the war,
and nothing else; but in order to continue his functions
in peace, he had been called Secretary to the Colonies.
Before the time of that Secretary, the business of the
State had been conducted by two with as great facility.
If two or three of the colonies were added to the de-
partmetyt of the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Peel), he would find no difficulty in managing them.
The third Secretary had been made necessary by the
new colonies, and by nothing else. The business of
most of these new colonies, as Malta and. the lonian
Islands, for instance, was purely matters of politics
and foreign correspondence. They ii.ight be trans-
ferred to the Secretary of State for Foteign Affairs.
Botany Bay and the other convict colonies naturally
,belonged to the Home Department. The rest of the
colonies might be subjected to the Board of Controul,
with an additional Under-Secretary to manage them.
Lest the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Wilmot) should be
alarmed, he had no objection to the Under-Secretary
of Lord Bathurst being transferred to that depart-
ment. A saving of nearly, if not quite, 10,0001.
a year might be effected by that arrangement, because
he was perfectly convinced that the President of the
Board of Controul, with the assistance, not of the
two Commissioners, but of an officer more ap-
proaching to a co-ordinate authority, whom they

77.7.114.76,tpr.!--.7.-


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- • .
... . , •
1111 a vi1i464411" *alai 6 pithedf
got
lott6tilitibildsgeintallelithedbuwbalethati ilithee bistihsoialtes*-th* .
would go on as smoothly As ever, with a iiiiine
_jliC of 10,000 f. a-year. • He did kit Wish to
be understood at 004:mining the' !Adult of die
&mid of Controul—fat frofti it; theta was no office .
'State the duties of which requirtd more militia
.tention. For himself, he would say; thbrigh it
might bear the appearance of persiinal vanity, that. '
never had any man inure sedulously devoted his time
to the duties of the office than he had. No single day
passed in which he had not Attended ; and all he
'wished now to impress upon the House was, that he
had exerted himself tb the utmost for the Advantage
of the Public::
Mr. CANNING thought it incumbent .upon hint
to stand forward on this, occasion, in order to beat
testimony to the onus and efficiency of stile duties re.,
quited from the Board of Conti-mil; The change of
circumstances which had taken place in the condition
of that Board since the retirement of the Right ,
Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, was such that
he thought it necessary to urge it upon the considera
non of the. House in viewing this question, not as an
argument, but as testimony. BA befbre he pro.:
ceeded to reply to statements resting more on the
credibility of testimony than on the authority of arz
gument, he wished to state the grounds upon which
the present motion had been introduced. It was a
motion for the reform of one of the great offices
of the State ; and, contrasting the statement of the
Hon. Gentleman who brought it forward with
that of the Right Hon. Gentleman who had last ad.
dressed the House, it would appear that one was I
most efficient, and the other a most inefficient sera
vant—(Hear, hear, and laughter).—lf this was the
case, and the President of the Board of Controul had
done his duty, he ought to have inquired into the
conduct of his idle Secretary—a proceeding, the
reasonableness of which he (Mr. Canning) could per-
fectly. understand--(Laughter).—lf his fellow Com-
missioners had co-operated with him, it was extraor-
dinary why such an abuse could exist; and it was
still more extraordinary why it should devolve upon
the idle Secretary to submit this motion to the House
—(Continued laughter).—This indeed was Reform
with a vengeance! This chewed the principle on which
Reform was clamoured for nine times out of ten;
for here the House found the very culprit—the reuns
coriStentem. coming forward to complain of that of
which he himself ss as nototiou,ly guilty—(Checrs).-...
The Hon. Gentleman came down to the House, -dying
" Me—xis adsum—not gui feci, but gui non feci."—
Oh, said the Hon. Gentleman, that these busy Com-
missioners should disturb the stillness of my stagna-
tion • I thought myself perfectly well off with a salary
of 1,:5001. a-year ; I had all the newspapers at my
command, and could read them at my leisure.--
While my President was employed in plans for the
advantage of India, I had nothing to do but to look
from the window into the Park. But I shall now
revenge myself for that diligence which has thrown
me into the shade, by !stinging forward the present
motion—(Repeated cheers).—N, w he (Mr. Canning)
would contend that the Hon. Gent. had no grounds for
this motion but such as went to inculpate himself.—
The business of this office had indeed increased no
less than 100 fold since the year 1796. Such an in-
crease of business called of course for additional
agents to conduct its transactions ; and from his own
knowledge, founded upon documentary and other
authentic evidence, that increase of business had ad-
vanced at least 20 per cent. within the last six years.
If then two Commissioners were found necessary in
1807, when the Hon. mover and his Right Hon. col-
league were in office, to assist in conducting the af-
fairs of the Board of Controul, it was surely not too
much to say that no reduction in these Commissioners
should take.place at present—(Hear, hear). Of the
increase of business that had taken place in the Board
of Controul, the'exhibition of his Honourable Friend,
the Secretary to the India Board, had presented a
very imperfect view to the House, by calling upon
it to judge from a single Bill, u hich lay on the table.
His Hon. Friend's eye must, indeed, have an extra-
ordinary power of magnifying, %%hen it could regard
such a document, although so voluminous, as any
just specimen of the greatly augmented business of
the India Board ; for he (Mr. (%) had seen one mili-
tary dispatch contain no less than 112 paper , form-
ing 13,511 pages ; another dispatch, a judical one,
contained 13,511 pages; and in a Revenue dispatch
2,588 pages. This then was the modicum to be read
by some one or other before the dispatch) could be
sent off—this was the sinecure—this the little appen-
dage to be added to the office of Secretary of State-
-this was the trifling inconsiderable office to be joined
to the duties of the Secretary to almost all the colo-
nies in the world—(Cheers.) Now, in order to reduce
what really might appear incredible, to something
like a degree of credibility, he should wish to shew
how the thing could be accomplished. First, then,
he was bound to say, that the dispatches were drawn at
the India House with a degree of accuracy and ability
that would fit the framers of them for any situation.
He was morally certain that every page was read, or at least
ascertained to contain that which was not necessary to read be.
fore it passed through their hands, and the President was bound
to read every passage that contained an alteration or doubt.---
However, they were now discussing establishments and not
men; but he would be most ungrateful if he omitted to return
his thanks to his Noble Friend (Lord Banning) for the valuable
assistance he had received from him on all judicial subjects.—
He could assure the House, that both his Honourable Friends
(Lord Binning and Mr. Sturges Bourne) were out of office
at their own particular choice. And as, in all diseassious
of late upon these subjects, it was the fashion to attribute
corrupt motives to men in offi.v, he thought their conduct
*mild afford a strong contradiction to the imputations, for
their character stood upon too high a pinnacle to be affected
by any such unwarrantable attacks—(Hear. bear, hear).--,
When be rendered the tribute of individual merit, he could eot
pass ever his Hon. Friend near him (Mr. Tatm, Courtenay);
and here be must observe, that whatever blame was to be en-
dured for the increase of this salary must fall upon him, and he
was ready to answer for it at the Bar of that House and the
Country. When he (Mr. Canning) first joined the Board of
Controul, lie found him in the situation, and be would excuse
him for saying it, he bad no other knowledge of him than as
being the author of a pamphlet, in which he (Mr. Canning) was
severely attacked--(A laugh).—However, he had not been long
in the office, when he became sensible of his abilities, and his
pa tent and unostentatious deportment made him (,Ilc. Canning)
endeavour to have him raised to the station has merits entitled
him to. This Gentleman was now in the tenth year of his ser.
lilies, and near the birth of his tenth child—(.o laugh)—and
if any man begrudged this additional allowance, he would
eye him credit for his economy, rather than have any share
in his heart. He was confident the present number of Com-
missioners was not too large fur the Government of India....
Mr. Fox bad got the House of Commons to consent to seven
Commisiiumrs and nine Sub-Commissioners. The seven were

;

- •
!le sheikh tkiVtittsis it, since. Mist* 'till
of cleatilis the Wn enttspetant
t moment most 44 • He he'd tioi
arising out of thit M chine weak
e espeettid they wouist*tre tb the Pohl'
at impottant dispatch** se:.be tuiderstc
,s. He hoptid he had Mott Board of C
House for tejecting thiklllo. in thee State