Star.
London, England, 1806-03-04 00:00:00

LORD LLLLL lioa•ucHts 41raUtiesnT.
-------- - -

Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE rote. Though he
had enjoyed the honour of a feat is; that Houle for
many Parliaments, be yet felt himfelf inadequate to
the importance of the fobjelt, to which he now claim.
ed the attention of the Houle. He had no defign of
commencing any fyftematic oppofition to the melt-
fares of the prefent Adminithation. Had he thought
that the prefent would be looked upon as en oppoli-
tion queftion, he thould not have moved it. He
thought it a fair queftion for the conftderation of the
Hoare, and not neceffarily conflated with any party
whatever. Indeed. fo far was it from originating with
any formed oppolltion, that the Hon. Secretary, now
oppofite to him, was the firft perfon to whom he
Rated his doubts on the fustier% He underftood,
that the fame queftion was this night to be difcuffed
in another place ; but this .coincidence was fo little
the ace of defr, that he had bad no communica-
tion whatever with the Noble Lord who was to move
a Moiler queftion in another Hotrfe, and was not even
perfoaally acquainted with him. Thus much it
teemed neceffary to fay, in order to remove the fuf-
picion of the prefent being a party queftion; not that
parties in general were uniformly to be reprobated :
they were incident to all free Governments, and might
prove ufeful in preferving freedom. While he was
upon this fajta, he begged leave to give those ratite
to an Honourable Gentleman, oppofite to him, who
was long the leader of an oppofition, but who had
now a principal fhare in the Adminiftration. He
fhould with him to divert bin:fell of the character of
a party-leader. That Honourable Gentleman fhould
pcollea the laying of Lewis XII. " That a King of
France ought to forget the injuries he had received
as Doke of Orleans." If that Gentleman lhoolcl
continue to retain the fame principles and opir•ions
which be formerly maintained, he ventured to re-
did, that his adminißration would prove neither
honourable nor lofting. But to return from this
digieffion, he mutt again repeat, that his mind
was free from all party motives, and that, under
any Adminiftration, he thould have been ready to
make his prefent motion. Had Lord Kenyon been
appointed to a place in the Cabinet, he thould have
expelled that fuch a meafure would have been warmly
oppofed by the Hon. Secretary, and he fhould cer-
tainly have felt it his dirty to figment him. The re-
lent was a queftion of a great and important nature,
and highly interefling to the public; and it was his
opinion, that fbould the Chief Juftice withdraw from
his fituation as a Cabinet Minifter, the Adminiftration
would be Itronger in the opinion and affections of the
country. At any rate, he gave them an opportunity
of fatisfying the public mind on the fubjeft. The
Hon. Member then moved, that the King's Speech
of the 3d of March, 5761, (horrid be read. In this
his Majefty informs the Houfe, that former commit,
lions to the Judges continued during good behaviour,
and expired on the demife of the Crown ; but that, as
he looked upon the independence of the Judges as
effential to the liberty of the lubjelt, he had granted
new commiflions to continue notwithllanding loch
demife. An Alt was accordingly paged, continued
the Hon. Gentleman, fecuring the independence of
the Judges, by making their Calory permanent. But
it appeared to him, that the grant to a Chief Janice"
of any emolument, or power, which may 'often be
more gratifying to an honourable mind, contra-
dieted the fpirit of the A& The Judge could hardly
be Paid to retain the Came independence, while the
power or the emolument conferred'upon him, might
be withdrawn at pleafure. Now this was precifely
the cafe with the dignity of Cabinet Councillor.
It was not, indeed, accompanied with a falary,
but the fituation of confidential advifer of his Ma-
-1 jelly might be more gratifying to an honourable
ambition than any of the molt lucrative nature, and
might produce an equal effect.—lt was a principle
of our common law, that no man fhould be at the
fame time a judge and party in the fame caufe. But
in Rate profecutionsi which are condulted at the in-
fiance of the Privy Council, the Chief Juflice, who
is a member of the Cabinet, mutt be both a Judge
and a party, unlefs he withdraw from it while fuch
difclifficirs are going forward. And even were he
to withdraw, how (hall the public come to the know-
ledge of it ? Some prepolTellion would Rill remain
on their minds againtt the pant( of the public jir ft ice.

&fide, that appointment might place the Chief Jur-
lice in a very difagreeable fituation. In his capacity
Of Councillor, he might incur the difpleafure of that
Houfe, and yet might Rill continue to exercife his
high office, though he had loft, in tome meafure, the
confidence of the country. It might alto be anted,
if any one of the Judges be appointed a confidential
advifer, why not more ? why not all ? And would not
the Conflitution be effentially injured by fuch ap-
pointment ? Betides, it tended to deprive the Houk
of its choice refpeaing the modes of profecution
againft public offenders. Had the Chief Juftice been
a Cabinet Councillor. k was not likely that the Houfe
would have ordered Lord Melville to be profecuted
in the Court of King's Bench, before a Judge who
was his colleague in council, and therefore might be
fufpefted of tome bias in his favour. The Honour-
able Member then drew the attention of the Houfe
to the precedents, which had been fuggefted, as
authorifing the appointment in queßion. All thofe,
however, antecedent to the Aft of his prefent Ma.
jelly, for fecuring the independence of the Judges,
he confidered as of little weight. The only inflance
of fuch a precedent he could recolleft was at the dole
of the reign of Queen Ante. when the Chief Juftice
was alto a member of the Regency. But it had been
well laid down by Judge Blackftone, that in no cafe
fhould a profecutor be at the fame time a judge.—
Lord Holt had alto been mentioned as another in-
Rance, but he could find no notification to this effeft
in the Journals of the Houfe. Lord Mansfield indeed
had, in 1775, acknowledged himfelf to have beets a
Cabinet Councillor ten years before, while be held
the fituation of Chief Juftice. But his Lerdthip had
never been confidered as a great conftitutional
yer, and his example was not fafely to be relied on.
Betides, the delicacy of that Noble Lord, on other
occafions. was not much to be admired. He had fat
on the trial of Lord G. Gordon, who was charged
with inaigating the mob to deßroy his Lordflup'S
houfe, without teeming aware of the indelicacy of filch
condos% His example then was not much to be relied
on. On the requeß of the Hon. Gentleman, there
was read a part of the Journals containing an addrefs
to his Majelly, praying him to order Sir Elijah Impey
too Righter the charge of having accepted an office
from the Eaft India Company, while he held the
office of a Judge in the Supreme Court of Bengal.—
This, the Hon. Gentleman contended, bore a confi-
derable analogy to the prefent cafe. He then made
feveral quotations from Judge Blackftone, (hewing
that the cffence of Liberty cßnfifted in preferring the
dillinftion between the Legsfiative, the Executive,
and the Judicial Powers. He concluded his fpeech,
by reading feveral refolutions. which he propofed to
the Hook for their adoption:
I.* Reared, That it is the opinion of this Houk, that it is ex-
pedient that the function of • IViinifter of the Crown be preferred
clininet from thofe of a Judge at Common Law.
a. "That the Members of the Cabinet Council are the cone-
dentW bfbilften and adirikn able Majolty.
3. " That It is a predict peculiarly Inexpedient, and tending
to render the adminittration of Mice kis fatisfadory, if not ids
pure, to unite In one perfon the odium of a Privy Councillor, and
of a judge at Common Law.'
Mr. BOND was ready to admit that opinions had
gone abroad on the prefent occafion, not favourable
to the mature of calling the Chief Jaftice of the
King's Bench to a feat in the Cabinet ; and the
im-
ons profeffed by the Honourable Member who
introduced this motion, had alto impreffed the minds
of many good and honourable men without doors ;
but it was his own opinion, that there was more of
plaisfibility in what had beeen Rated by the Honour-
able Gentleman, than of any thing folid or well
founded; and, notwithftanding the profeffions with
which the Hon. Gentleman opened his fpeech, that
nothing perfonal was intended towards the Ncble
Lord in quellion, the whole objeft of his fpeech and
his motion was to remove from his Majefty's Coun-
cils, a Nobleman of high charafter, eminent talents,
found wifdom, extent.] re experience, proud inde-
pendence, and unfullied integrity, at a moment
when it fhould be the zealous objeft of every friend
of his country to unite in thofe Councils the collec-
tive wifdom, talents, and integrity of the land. If
his Majefty had been gracioufly pleated to call to
his Councils a man fo competent to advife in a crifis
arduous like the prefent, he was wholly at a lots to
convince what there was infeftious in the air of the
Council Chamber, to endanger the integrity of the
judicial charafter, or how the circumftaince of com-
bining in the fame perfon the office of a Judge, and
the Councillor of his Sovereign, upon great State
queftione, could tehd to a perverfion of the laws, or
to render the adminiltration of juftice lets pure. So
far from fupporting his apprehenfions by any fad,
the Hon. Gentleman had not adduced a liogle cir-
, zumftance to jußify his reafoning ; but ash had been
to ftrenuoufler argued by him that abufes were likely
to accrue, he begged leave to examine the quellion
as to what were to be the effefts rifked, of calling the
Indent Chief Juftice of the King's Bench to aid his
Majefty's Councils as a Cabinet Minifler. That No-
ble Lord, if any thing could render a man indepen-
dent in his principles, or incorruptible in his inte•
grity, was in poffeffion of every confideration that
could tender him fo. Raifed to the top of his pro-
feffion—filling a poll the molt honourable and diftin-
guilhed—in which, by the law of the land, he was ren-
dered independent of the Crown, and removable only
for mlleonduCt, of which it was not likely a man of
his high charafter and unfullied integrity could ever
be guilty—placed in a fituation where the eyes of
the public were continually turned upon him. where
his words were continually weighed, and his judg
ment ferutinized by the whole Bar, and checked by
the vigilance of his affillant Judges: what could be
1 the poffibie inducement for him, in fuch times as the
prefent, to be guilty of malverfation in his judi-
cial charafter ? Profellionally as a lawyer, he was
now independent, and at the fummit of his ambi
tion ; for it was well known, that lie declined to ac-
cept the only judicial fituation in the country higher
than that which he aCtually filled. If any thing
could be urged that would cut nearer to pollibility,
it would be, that as a Member of the cabinet, he
might advife the profecution for a libel againft that
body, and afterwards prefide at the Mal of the libeller.
But here again there was not the leaf probability of
his being enabled hum his fituation, to do mifchief,
inafmuch as the Jury, and not the judge, decided
upon the law as well as the fag. Even conld it be
fuppofed the Jury would be influenced to an unjuil
verditit from the mis-direEtion of the Judge, the party
would have his remedy in a new trial. The molt
public charafter in the :calm was the Chief Plaice o'
the King's Bench ; there was no map whole pnblic

1 conctuftlood More confpiconufly open to obfervatOoo
His Court was more retorted to than any other by
clients of every defctipt ion ; but while he (Mr. Bond)
felt as jealous as any man, of the pure adminiflration
of juftice in the country, he felt.pt the fame time,
that it was nett to an impoffibility that the Chief PA--
ace of the King's Bench could be induced to any aft
that could occalion the reditudeof his judicial chairaco
ter to be called in queflion. Beßties, the purpofe for
which the Noble Lord wascalled tohis Majefly's Coun-
cils was not for confultations on the propriety of cri-
minal profecutions, but of giving his advice on coot
tions of State, and concerns of peace or war; alliances
and treaties with foreign nations, in which his great
knowledge of the law of nations mutt render his
councils of high importance ; and was it probable,
he would elk, that there was any thing in the known
difpofltion of the Nobleman referred to' that would
induce him to fwerve from his duty? There were
certainly other important points upon which, fhould
occafion *rife, lie would, of courfe, be confulted ;
fuch, for inflance, as cafes of (edition, infurreflion,
and high treafon, and he might afterwards come
to fit in judgment upon the perfons charged with
fuch crime. ; but what evil could refult in this
cafe ? The Chief Juflice of the King's Bench is
precluded from taking his feat in that high office,
until a period of life when it mutt be fuppofed
his judgment it matured, and his mini divefted of
prejudice. Was it then to be fuppofed, that a man of
the found talents, extenfive profeffional knowledge.
and high purity of charadter, fetch as the Noble Lord
in quettion paella, would, in aiding the delibera-
tions of a Jury upon the evidence before this Court.
fay that was law which was not, liable as he would •
be to the obfervations of the whole Bar, and checked
as he mull be by the venerable charafters who fat to
affift him on that Bench ? But fupportag lie did
give hie advice in the Cabinet for the profecation of
parties, (weir it did not follow that he would after-
wards fit in judgment upon theist ; for was it not
much more likely that be would ant be earned in the
Commit ion for fuck trial ? betide, if the Lord Chief
juftice be fummoned to attend a Council where fob-
jefts were to be difcuffed upon which be amid there-
after be called to fit in judgment, would he not
have the power to withdraw, and to decline any part
in fuch deliberation, or appoint tome other Judge
to try fuch castles in his own Court i in filch a
cafe, the Bench of Janice, in this country is fo
conflituted, that no reafonable fears of injustice
could be entertained by any man. But the Honour.
able Gentleman's obje&ions were not • direded
again!' the charafter of the Noble L7rd, but agaiiiß
the poffible fofpicion of his impartiality, from his
appointment to the office of a Cabinet Minifter,
which wooid reader his achniniftration of juftice lets
ratisfaltoryo Such an argument, he thought, entitled
to no fort of weight ; for if idle, unfounded, and fp*.
culative fufpicions were to weigh againft eftablitbed
charafter, known principles, and unfullied integrity,
it would be impolfible to find any man againfl whom
loch arguments might not be offered. But the.Hoi.
Members's objeftion to the Noble Lord as a Cabinet
Councillor, would avail him nothing, if he did not
carry his principle-much farther, and deprive him
alto of the office of a Privy Councillor, and of a Peer
of the realm, for in either of thole &tuitions he had
a right to advice hie Majefly, and might be em-
ployed in deliberation upon matters upon which he
might afterwards fit in judgment. It had frequently.
occurred in the cafe of the other Judges, who had
been fummoned to attend the Privy Council, and to
examine evidences before them upon matters on which
thole judges were afterwards to fit in judgment. It
was fo with Lord Chief Jake Holt ; and in a much
more recent occifion, in the cafe of Chief Italics
Eyre, who was employed in examining witnefies be-
fore the Privy Council, aostinft perfons upon whoa
he afterwards fat in judgment on a charge of. High
Treafnn. But, in a Cabinet Council, no *knifes
were examined, and, therefore, the mere deliberation
moll be much left exceptionable in loch a tafe, than
the examination of witneffes on both fides. Bet wis it
to be fuppofed, that any man of an enlightened mind,
loch as the prefent Chief jullice of the King's Bench;
would retire from loch a deliberation impreffed by
prejudices, that could afterwards bias his judgment
againft the law and the truth ? Betides, without tu
tally altering the Conftitution, it would be impoffible
to deprive the Noble Lord of that privilege of advif-
ing his Sovereign, which he enjoyed as a Peer of
Parliament. Such objeftions, therefore, had obvi-
outly no other objeft than to thwart his Majefty in the
exercife of his prerogative for calling to his Councils
thole whom, in arduous times like the prefent, he
conceived moft competent to advice. It is not nierelo
as a judge the Noble Lord is to give Iris advice to
his Sovereign, but as a Itatefmon—and, therefore.
if the Honourable Member was not prepared to go
much further than his Refolution that night pro-
poled, he could not fee what objeft was to be an-
fwered by fuch An innovation. The Ref elution did
not, in fad, declare that any thing was (lane in that
cafe that was unconflitutional or illegal: in fag,
nothing was fo done ; and if the 'Ow was not fro
there was not a Judge upon the Bench who would
be fit to fit as a Judge of Comniiffion. In cafes
of high treafon, the Privy Council, after examining
witnelfes on both fides, with the aid of the Judges,
fent thole Judges to any part of the kingdom, to sty
the parties accufed : and, therefore, unrefs the prin.
ciple was carried much farther than the Honourable
Gentleman propoled, his refolutions would anfwer
no purpofe. With refpeft to the objeftion made by
the Honourable Member againft uniting the judicial
and Legiflative with the Executive rh trafter, on the
audit rity of Blackllone, he had on'y to obferve, that
Blackttnne founded his doftrine on that of Baron
Montefottieu, who, though a waiter t f , eipeaability,
was but a theorill on the fubjeft of Legiflation,
and not fopported by any praflical facts on that
head. Bnt BlackOone only meant to nate, that
the office of Judge wo, not to be united is the perfon
who was an Ertectoivo Member of the State. But, i
as to the legality of the Judge tieing called to the
Council of the Sovereign, there could be no quer- ;
lion y for the Lord Ctrancelloo in virtue of his of.
fice, is a Rater:Dan, arc' bound to sotvife his %jelly,
and, therefore. to contend for the contrary prinetple,
was only fighting with fhadows. It might, indeed, I
be (aid. that the Lord Chancellor's privilege was
only to decide in cafes of property between Otto •
jells; but it was an Cftablifhed fa& that the Coen-
cellor had the foie jorifdiotion in petitions of right,
and if influence amid be fur poled to Tway the jut. '

• .•
'11••=••••=1100

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...es of any. man In that high Ration, it
In the cafe where his Soirereign was the
Aecotor t yet no fetch thing had ever heed known to
oneut, notaithiteading the Ittipici..ns furoefled ; and,
limber, in cafe of a trial before the Houle of Peers,''
it is always cuitornary, if out of the Sedion of Pawl
liament, for the Lord Chancellor to preftdc as Lord
High Steward; and armed with extraordinary powers I
and privileges under the Aft of the 7th of William ILL(
he was only required to fummon fiateen Peers on the'
vial, or up to the number of twenty.three, if he
thought fit ; and on all queftions of law that might
wife upon the cafe. he decided folely and perempto.
rily. Whereas the Chief lila ice of the Court of King's
Bench was controuled and checked in his legal deer.
lions by the Puifne Judges; and yet no man has called
into queßion the propriety of uniting in the Lord
Chancellor the office of Prefiding Judge and Cabinet
Councillor. Mr. Bond then went over a variety of
documents, fo far back as the time of Edward the
Third, to prove that the Chief Jolliet of the King's
Bench had been always confidered as a confidential
advifer of the King; and in times much nearer ,our
own. that the great Lord Hardwicke was appointed
a Cabinet Councillor, while Chief Jutlice of the
King's Bench, before he was appointed Lord Chan-
cellor. which office he held for two months, in con-
jondion with the Chief Jußicefhip of the King's
Beech, until his fueceffor was appointed to the latter;
and in this issuance there; was the authority of that
great man, and conffitutional lawyer, to prove the
regality of uniting the Judge and Cabinet Councillor
ion the fame perfon. Alfo by the Aft of the Sixth of
Anne, chap. 7, the Lord Chief Juffiee of the King's
Bench was appointed a Member of the Regency ;
thus estircifing not merely the foodions of a Cabi-
set Councillor, bet the office of Royalty itfelf.—
But the Lord Chief- Joilice Holt, fo appointed,
having died before the Quin. the vacancy in the
Regent y was filled up by Lord Chief luffice Parker,
who, after the death of Anne, continued as Chief
Jake, and a Member of the Regency, until the
arrival of Geo. I. The next inftance was in the
sat! Geo. 11. ear. mt, when providing for the mi•
amity of the Heir Apparent, a Regency was ap-
=in which the Chief hake of the King's
was one, his prefent Majefty being then but
&Oita years of age, and it being necerary to pro-
vide for the defendants of the Prince of Wales,; the
Idaveity was therefore appointed for five years, and
rz irjiaion was made to the Chief Jullice as a
of it. And again, in the sth of his prefent
Slisjeßy, daring a fit of Mites, it became neceffary
to appoint another Regency, the prefent Prince of
Wales being then but three years old. The Regency
was accordingly appointed for fifteen years, of which
'the Chief jullice for the time being was alto appoint.
ed a Member. Thus far, then, borne out by -a feries
of precedents, he Gould not withhold his formica, at
this late day, that an ufage fo uniformly idled upon
for ages. was a novelty and an innovation. He con
fiddred the prefent motion, as an attempt to deprive
hie Majegy of the privilege of calling to his Coon-
eilot thewifdam of fuch of his fubjeds agile thought
fit to . advice with ; and this attempt, upon the pre-
tence on which it Rood founded. was peculiarly un-
gracious towards that Monarch, whore reign was fo
peculiarity diftinguifbed, for finally ettablithing the in-
dependence of the jodietal charater upon the Crown,
He concluded by moving the Ostler of the Day.
Mn STANHOPE explained.

W. CANNING (aid, the Honoorable Gentleman
uriio (poke lift, had admitted the tranfaition which
ores the objeft of the Motion, had made a confiderable
here/Lon, and that the arguments urged again& it
had much planfibility in them.—He concluded a
lon argument, by contending that it was repugnant
to the chara&er of a Judge, and an innovation upon
the toothy of jußice.
Lord TEMPLE.-The Gentlemen have not pre.
tended to difpote the cafe on conflitutional grounds.
Indeed. to challenge it is untonflitutimial, in as far
as it is interfering with the prerogative of the Crown.
Whatever impreSons may have been made out of
doors, it has not arifen from the importance of the
*WO itfelf, but from the adventitious confequence
vivo to it. The Cabinet is but a Committee of
Privy Councillors. But Privy Councillors who are
not of the Cabinet may give advice, indeed it
is their duty. and are equally refponfible. In
the reign of (tieen Anne, the Dukes of Argyle
nod Somerfet, not being. Members of the Cabi-
net, infilied upon their right, as Privy Council-
lor*, of giving their advice, and, by that advice, a
new adminiaration was formed. It is not as Cabi-
ns? Miriam, but as Privy Councillors, that refpon-
fibility ',umbel to the advifers of the Crown. Sup-
"ling Lord Ellenboroogh had no feat in the Cabi-
net, tie would have a right to give his advice as a
13arrin.. It would therefore, be neceffary, to give any
cPtifequence to the refolutions propofed by the Gen-
tlemen on the other fide, to deprive Lord Ellenbo-
rough of hi. feat in the Houle of Lords, and of his
title. of Legal Adrifer to his Majetly. Judge Black.
tiot.e is the .idly authority in their favour. There is
not • tingle cafe or a tingle astute for them. The
Lord Chief Juflice, as a Member of the Privy Coon-
cii, examined Governor Pieton, and afterwards pre-
tided aphis trial as a Judge. Yet no exception was
taken. The Lnrd Chancellor, as a Peer, reviles thole
de ifs ins which he has given from the Bench. Lord
Chief Juftice Eyre examined the perfous accultd of
high treafon in 1794. and afterwards fat as Judge
at their trial. Lord Mansfield left the Cabinet on
public grounds, hecaufe he wi•uld not fit with the
Duke of Bedford, and he returned to it on public
grounds. This he raw in the haad.writing of Lord
Mansfield this very day, and had it alto from a higher
authority. Lord Loughborough. when Chief Juftice
of the Common Pleas, was preterit at the examina-
tion of the tiaras in 1780, who were afterwards tried
befotc him and yet no fault was found.
Mr. CANNING and Lord TEMPLE mutually
explained.
Mr. Secretary FOX was willing to acknowledge,
t sr the Hon. Mover had given him his advice, but
b was nut inclined to think his advice good. He had
cautioned him againfl the influence and views of
pasty, and spina his being heard as the leader of a
party. He was like wife accufed of being guilty of
t • ffence of (Wing. that he bad not departed from
h.. I•iimet principles. A charge of that kind was
ra her whimfieal from that Gentleman when compar-
e with what followed. The Honourable Gentleman
I.,::: laid, if he (Mr. Fox) cl,tl oppofe the prefent
tilotit-s, he ihsiuld be inconfiftent with his los mer

ptadlice. This was certainly rather-an odd pre• ,
ludesto his other nbfervationi. He had been re- '
minded of the matter of. Sir Elijah Impey, and had.
btcn alto told, that had fuch an appointment as that
now under confideration taken place during a former
AdMiniaration, he would have oppofed it. But, in
truth, he never did forefee, th.a the Cabinet Coun-
cil, a Council of whom nothing could be found in
the flame books, could ever, be made the fubjea
of a queflion of this nature, except indeed it were
merely upon perfonal grounds. If a quetlion were
flailed as to the improper introduaion of a perfon
into the Privy Council, he would admit, that it would
be a fair lubjea of difeuffion, hut that there fhould
be a doubt., whether a perfon Mould do the duties
that as a Privy Councillor he was bound and fworn
to do, appeared to him a novelty. No Council of
this defcription was ever acknowledged by law, ex-
cept the Privy Council. Every principle would have
guided him to deny the doarine of confidering the Ca-
binet, as it was called, as a diftina and recognifed body.
Every man in the Privy Council had a right to advife
his Sovereign. His idea of a Cabinet was, that it was
a body never recognifed by Parliament for very gond
reafons. It was a cullom never recognifed, but con-
nived at, for its convenience, to avoid the mifchief
of acknowledging it, which might be of no trivial
nature. Any doubt that might have &fled on this
point, he hoped might be removed by this debate.—
The Honourable Gentleman fait!, he could not
difcover who are the perfons that compofed the
Cabinet. True bexisofe it was not known as fuch,
and that was the advantage, if there was any adven-
t tags in the infitution. There was an advantage in
debate on the other fide of the queftion. Produce,
they (aid, your precedents. There were no prece-
dents to produce ; there was nothing but the tradi-
tion of our forfathers. No precedents could be pro-
duced of a body without record, and without any
emblems of their office. The Honourable Gentle-
man had faid, that nobody knew Lord Mansfield was
' a Cabinet Minifter till he confeffed it. In that, he
was certainly wrong : but'as to the difficulty and
the impoffibility of making the Cabinet a refponfible
body, he mutt think that argument conclufive. But
as the Gentleman was very food of calling it a ref.
ponfible body, he thould with Gentlemen to thew
him where and how it was refponfible as a body, or,
in faEl, any individual of it, as fuch. When he had
fpoken of public report, he feemed to have confult-
ed rather the newfpaper s and converfations in the
freets than the astute books. Let him fee the fta-
tutes. The principle afferted would defroy ail re.
fpontibility. In his own office was not the refpon-
libility greater than as one of a fet of advifers
called a Cabinet? He thought that when the a&or
could be got at, it was much better than to get at the
ad viler. He could be got at in a plainer and a more
entalitutional manner. But there were cafes where
Parliament had got at the advifers of pUblic
mea-
•fnres; and yet no Cabinet Councillor was confidered
refponfible. The pradice of the Houle wat to
make enquiry of the particular office. In the litter
part of King William's reign, the Minifters were not
impeached for efts committed by them as Cabinet
Councillors. For the peace of Utrecht,' the refpon-
, able man was Lord Bolingbroke ; but he was
abroad, and out of their reach. They wilhed there-1
fore to implicate Lord Oxford. Let Gentlemen
look at that impeachment. They accufed him of
various offences contrary to the cutiflitution, and
writing letters in the Queen's name. But why were
there fa many flaifts and difficulties in that proceed-
ing ? Beeatife they would not recogitife the Cabinet
Council. They would not fay lo ; though the buli-
nefs might, by doing 10, have been (month and eafy.
The leader of that bounds was Sir Robert Walpole,
who was, as I think, much abufed during his admi-
niar?tion. and fill more, perhaps, fince his death ;
and though I think highly of much of his public cha-
rafter, yet I may °Verve, that I do not think he
would have been very fcrupnlous about the means of
gaining his objeEt. So I might perhaps fay of Lord
fownthend, who was likewife a great opponent of
the Tory party. Mere then was this.refponfibility
of the Cabinet Council ? Let Gentlemen confider.
They could not flop here. If thoy recognifed that
feledtion from the Privy Council, they would intro-
duce a novelty without precedent ; and after going
fo far, he thought be ought not to let Gentlemen
flop there. They ought then to go no farther, and
to make the Cabinet a formal body, known to that
Houfe. Was that meant ? Were they going . to
make that dangerous innovation without explaining
what it was they intended ? He bad not fat in many
Cabinets. His opinion of a Cabinet was, that it
was a meeting of perfons high in office, to converfe
upon public affairs, and to give advice to the King,
and even to converfe upon fubjeas on which it might
not be fit to give fuch advice. They 'are fimply
Minifters, taking advice themfelves of thole whom
they deem it prudent and proper to confult,
though not according to any legal inftitution. The
bell mode of refponfibility, he mutt repeat, was, to
make the agent refponfible. If a Cabinet were held
to recommend to the King to command a Minifter to
do a particular thing, the voice of that Cabinet would
be no itiftification Ks the Minifter. It was as Privy
Councillors, and not as Cabinet Councillors, that
refpontihility attached. People feemed to forget the
nature of the Privy Council. Was it no objea of
ambition to be a Privy Councillor ? Did Gentlemen
confider it nothing to be (truck out of it ? That was
the Council known to the law, and the Members of
what ii called the Cabinet, are only refponfible as
Privy Councillers for their advice. As the quotation
from Montetquieu, he was very willing to allow it
great weght t but however be might think highly of
Montelquieu, be could not admit him to be a perfea
judge of the nature of the Britiflt Conflitution. What
Montaftrieu lira listed, was, the feparation of the
Legillative from the Executive and the Judicial de-
partments. Apply this fairly. Had there been any
propofition to keep the Executive Power out of that
Houfe ? Gentlemen were not prepared to fay,
that the Judges in the other Houfe, atid the Mai.
ter of the Rolls in the Houfe of Commons, thould
not be Members of the Legiflature. Thus then
Was an end to the notion of not mixing the le-
giflative and the judicial -iiiuthorities. As to the
judicial and the executive, there WAS the Lord Chan-
cellor, always a Cabinet Miniller. Where was the
dillinerion between a criminal and a civil Judge;
He could not difcnyer that maxim in law. How
was it with a Lord Steward in cafes of trial for high,
treafou ? Gentlemen were not content with the the.
orics they had laid down, which were not bad in them.

I:l.2isote, where, though the dint was very invitin;
you are told, " Yon mutt not eat." So a Chief
Juftice mull not advife on law, nor advife on affairs
of State. He ought to have no other objet of am-
bition. Then why make him a Privy Councillor ?
Lord Kenyon was Lord Lieutenant of Flintlhire.
Was not that a place of power ? In the firft, and
he believed the fecond Government in. France, af-
ter the Revolution, and in fcarcely any other
country, except perhaps Turkey, the Leginative,
Executive and Judiciary Powers were kept quite dif-
Una and feparate. He did not pretend to great know-
ledge in thefe matters; the only law books of this def.
cription were the Arabian Nights, and fuch books, in
which the reparation of powers is incanted by the
Bafhaw and the Cadi. Lord Holt was appointed one
of the Regency, which happened, however: in the
long vacation, or elfe he would have certainly Cat in
his own court. Parliament, however, were very pro-
vident in taking care that the 92een thould die before
Term. If Dr. Radcliffe had preferved her Majefty's
life, the Conftitution might have been fubverted !
The Council of Regency, when the Prince of Wales
was but two and a half years of age, might have re-
mained for fifteen years with a judge in it immove-
able from his office. The phrafe was " a Council
of llant to the Regent," and was nearly the fame
(elves certainly, but which were not applicable to this
Contlitution, and they were obliged to cut and pare
them to fait their putpofes. Juftice Blackftone had
Paid, that a Judge ought not to be a Minifter of
State: he begged leave, however, te demur a little
to his authority as an oracle on there fobjefts and as,
a very great and eminent Conffitutional Lawyer.
He had, however, a very high degree of refpeft for
his memory. He had laid down the municipal law
in a way he admired, and he had fliewn how an ex-
cellent ftyle of writing, adorned by eloquence, can
tender delightful the ftody of a dry fubjett. He ad-
mired the writer, -luid he admired him as a writer,
more than molt seiters, for his avoiding new terms
and gallicifms, which were difagreeable to his tette.
He attributed great merit to him, but he demurred'
to his authority, becaufe he had (aid, that the latter
part of Charles the Second's reign exhibited the
Conftitution in a ftate approaching to perfeltion.—
. Now, he could not think that he who held fuch an
opinion could be aConffitutional oracle. But what
did that Judge really mean, when he Paid that a
Judge ought not to be a Minifter of State ? He be.
lieved he meant to nfe the left term in the true
Engliffi acceptation of it ; not as the French, Ger
mans, and Italiane•do, whole tile of it may be bet
tranflated by oar term of Privy Councillor, or one
who adminifiers the affairs of a kingdom. Look at
Sir William Temples. Council, of which lie (peaks
with praife. This was formed at the period when he
confiders the Conftitutioa Co perfea. It was a fe-
',Sion of thirty and odd members. In it there were
Lord Effes, Lord Hones, Lord Cavendith, Lord
Ruffcll, and almoft every name of merit, and among
the relt was to be found that of the Chief Juftice of
the Comma Pleas, hot Mawr tells us, that.it was
propofed, that one of the three Chiefs in die Courts
timid always have a place in it. This was the opi
Dion of Sir W. Temple, who, it is known, was fa&
ciently fcandalised at the adminifiration of the
'country and of the Omits of Law at that time. Ha
quoted this as an argument ad howitete, to JAW
Blackftone, from the time in which he places the pee-
fietion of the Conflitution. The practice bad eV,
bees to make the Lord Chief Juftice a Privy Comm
cider, and of eolith: eligible to be a Cabinet Corm
ciUor, for in no one inftance bad it been difapproved
by Parliament. Lord Parker was a Cabinet Coun-
cillor for lone time after the acceffion of George the
Firft. So was Lord Hardwicke, and fo was Lord
Eldon, during the two terms that he retained his
two offices. That was not fo long as two years, in-
deed, or twenty years; but hill it !hewed that
nothing repugnant was ken in the principle. Lord
Mansfield admitted, that he was one of the Cabi-
net Council, but his Lordthip certainly did not lin-
ens& his fame by his politics. But the Honour.
table Member had reminded him, that he then (Li-
nked the conduft of Lord Mansfield. So he did ;
but be and the other Hon. Gentleman diffiked the
American war, and other meafures fupported by
Lord Mansfield. He did not oppofe that Noble Lord
is a Cabinet Minifter merely. He thought Lord
Mansfield a man pollefted of good and great qualities,
though fomewbat defaced. But then came this inju-
rious difcoveryithat though Lord Mansfield was a Ca.
binet Minifter with fo many eminent perfons, nobody
knew it I It came out in 1775, by furprize, and Come
obkrvations en the fubjeft are quoted from Lord
Multilane, that can fcarcely be, to whatever caufe
the error may be attributed, fince the words impited
are abfolute nonfenfe. He could never fay that a
man ought not to adrift what he was to execute.—
How could his fituation be unknown ? Look at the
tree years when he Was in the Cabinet: no mao ever
Cat with more affeffors. Was be fo little in ftature
that lie could not be ken ? The Duke of Newcallle,
/ford Chatham, and Mr. Grenville, were a pack of
old fools, and wanted the new lights of the Hen.
Gentleman to fhew them that they were (obverting
the Conftitution. They mutt Cutely have known their
affociates. The Lord Chief Juftice was not hid in
the corner when they met in the Cabinet Council,
Room. If his Hon. Friend (Mr. Canning), were
twenty years older, be would remember fomethiog
about this; but he defired only fair play with Lnrd
Chatifam and the Duke of Newcattle, lee. Re-
(pelting the independence of the Judges, highly as he
admired the nay AS of his pram Majefty's reign,
the better half was done by the AS of William the
Third, which made the judges independent of the
reigning Sovereign, though not of the fucceffor.—
Now what of the fpeech of his prefent Majelty ?
Does it not appear eitremely probable that Lord
Mansfield was an advifer, and particularly Co, of that
very fpeeeh, and the meafure to which it alludes ?
The charge againft Lord Mansfield was, that he was
a fecret advifer, after being a Cabinet 'Councillor.—
The fubjeft of pi ofecutions l'or libel had been adverted
to, but he did not learn that fuch matters formed the
fubjed of confederation in the Cabinet Council. So
grave a matter as treafon mull be confidered in the
Privy Council : but when wai that done without
fome of the judges ? Well ; but though a Judge
may advife in this fubjeft as a Privy Councillor, yet
not in the Cabinet : " But as to war or treaties, No !
there you make him a politician ; but do not you do
fo When you make him a Privy Councillor This
reminded him of the Rory of the dinner in Don
thing with a Cabinet Council, and implied as much

.
•
. .
•
the Cabinet • were, except the Archbishop, . ,
Ordinance, the Icate.
the addition of the Mailer of the _ .
' or more than that. The tern
Regency Ad. which
he bad OR anode/ft% by• jil
and voted for the
tice Blackftone fat in that Hoofs,
ed
err
Petriv°eanegefill• d with
the •
officers who compofed the Cabinet CotteiL.
_le. the
meafureby which the Lord Chief Jullieetwasappecat
a Regent. If he was incorrect in this, !bores* bed
better memories might. arm& him. The Bight
kart
Hon. Gentleman then recapitulated the •
aliments of his fpeech, and obferved, that the iff
nolf.
fion of a Judge into the Cabinet was got al:amend
by any thing that had fallen from the opPolite Mk.
and that it had the example of the bet if dints.
Were the lad three rears of the laft reign ioadOi.
dour t They were brighten than any fine* dohs
wdahyieshobfeLon4rrdsGoodx)oflapht,ihn.e
joliiinedtheLofirrdß
AihCabibuttoend ilk.
then Chancellor of the Duchy of Lattealler. Mar It
variety of other remarks, he concluded a very ford.
ble and convincing (peach, by declaring, that he most
beard a cafe fo little applicable to the contliinticinal
n? op
pi notfis
if; tot
np
,p obfuetd, toonbethe ne dcaonngterar erdy.,
ihlionelddidth"lankcoaunryt
Gentleman for his fupport, but if Gentlemen were •
determined to oppofe, he hoped they would. always
choofe fah qiielboos as the prefent.
Lord CASTLEREAGH (poke at fame length in
reply to Mr. Fox, and 'in defence of Mr. Stanhopes
Refolutions.
' • Lied Hatial pri n. did sot de ti enter bite iti prised
andisasefaisis it haegibet tether aW 10•0• Wt [displeased
obateeseros late serber of !la atitift. tic Marteserid '
he Wag
oagiblittagliolggrealWlWWlolll
It Wall paano wami4s. 1
abaa. • k - Oar tar die kir re art
eiesseser Itob as *otlenellee. firm& Mt dc atrial* .
Metal* amok be ha peepers* terrelittioe i oral
eldp be bet ou theterieb whir Me rind. Win la
mow sitoosiag ro: deer, waft aLd *kg dielterildils 1
aklls
s .
se yea~tei Me Matt. -
mfr pea elulordes e=
tirMbiarkleat=ridibrittar. ha delver no,
WOO Mem Mparsalidleacp,- kers
arc , I.laklitp.eteo inibirtos (Miler Ceased enehrel
the oli. de gitiame.eaisp at dr thigh leak wee tems-
seordte pa dot be meths ledger.*
prided M &ChM The fahrip =ellidlialltithee.....e.....2 sew
his semi milippild Opp et diet peeled Mb
on tie vitiator edlipeet to Me ilialsel est • • trilltlie irk.
vial aad .. • fradliona tar the two. lea eateries, and era-
eluded wick • Oat same; he was not perfedtly tailed
.1 the perektritkingstadegthe Chief Joint( tecibmia Mier
wire Matereitdr.Meds. put Berle. wooer ambeed
eke repdayeltergeereter ble Mile lifer (air.
Iles) ied he due the reteeki tallish era* le Consul
epee MAK keel** epaidie Mae seled lithe
Mr. nutavau. as elects, en the trail trails/2ms
there eta an litgliaboag fir Ilbei=e bse k a were de-
ildatt.kr Or' *pea. i bid us Ike
teed* et peaks( erelasitie Mield Mei . Irmo
lbw hard of . metes to eitnrky, .
woo at dad k nenleeferf, OF riderly
Me QM idaseasieteie Cabbie), to Malt the
eb par to.tbs rieliterdee of she Hoek; if sr beta
ii.elkeis is
have dies te
dee ribieettibteljellie. Merkkg add be MOM it
.nonded
ligagaggeallt gairaerdlasefesedeet bad ezeltedirlirlditits.
*dear esifetteared so wad the ark of. the letO, 'Mir
MO dills Plat all nab end perks,* beddivea Wendel dirt
=tls his vine, ids Ores. herd id recesidek the woo
he people, would reedy Writs diehemisty, anal tbie
eel Adimillaradserrigethe Orel, die kilter iir katrse, yes
rreek. kirk Mt lan N. edam eel "Met red& Mti
16"110041 kikefilliltd *Ober to. %vow a, brew es.
*Mop •
Mr. SHIMIDAN was or e Ink arrpeffed at their geode of
Ht Hoe. and Leered Ckederoaa who gooks tea; He feemed to
otatiere 'die eardsta of Minden, brash die memeot woke
was grat of the prefer rothes, midear bed aro induced thaw
to accede to die objea eh wider restieripg A Madam need,
Cory. The late I,4lsAlter,wfdi wrest liar Hooted Learned Gen.
damn had Wird, had sie cis 1y often SWIM this ends of
reddly. ied et Celt bis Mild
_pew (Mr. Fos) hod not the
Marketer spy kelt flaw* ik Morkitc =
Lace
uijilia Me, brirraw. weadim Or, the
ari Orders. Milled se amid Omelettes; in deg.**.
tiroW ddestiesi wee elleggligaiki be be bed ler Mince
Ilds bemire...Mt by Si Welles liresh. that Coe
wemees.wastiresid/AWW Ise di '11"1"114 Leig%
Goads far be bed Meyers& Media*
perk ketbmiti. art thcalmeglis% from of
..fibbritar
padre. way wrier* ' dr swim* et
mesh to s Irk le de ?Mrs weft ewe err et • •
rki; the giratariaism* Moser mike* she other wr
edialsrau. clad vow Medals, of the iitellinnW
bit and ingassogi (liedeme le. Me bigekles he (Mr. Mosidan)
'Muhl en ream as Sleknekt•-Mw earesta had Marristr
as the stew Oppelthet, be, hemy did seeitspresees Maciltee•
does, wtobee k was ea etrelieset beak 111 re Albedo, al
seta was the seek be didestimie ; liet spier% Pro be did
not wile tikes!. map, abeitdeesdlry Irk reketerepreek,
and with as hataireel dr Adeeklikedies. be did
imese.
wire
q a emir abriailes. ankh Ms did be die or a fro
=nor grades. Heald soda{ Mw ke~ of
awes the Han. parlesem Ist tbdr Mend eiliebeet 1 ire
rebdaidi loft a wend Mgt** (Mc Oldredscarillrelbloll"
bawl (Lard Caltir era) rot a third a preeetal prat.
Oar sibs (Mr. TWdwd k wee mural toesped, they woe*
Irks lkde the 4111 et The HOD. and Laurel
rders% tohide Lerd was • wry**Mist
kitties is he ea thit
scot of dr Mints he •,, adraw kW
hay ie eatiptir a teat la die Greet. Lord Meader wirer
et le syde, for the bet mks le tie wield, break be wed
tiwoM ail. .In 1765, ho side raw lets oar, and IMO atagt•
wards WAX out for the bee geed testae, which he might 411 c
to caroms with tas iiseeerable Gentleman impolite,
could hip no lora : the it was the moit (hocking thug
ChlelJultiee bier Mow any particulars of a charge before leapt
pears on an Indidommt to Court. Did not the Hocourable and
Learned Gentleman temensbw, very recently, In our binary, Mal
the Cnipf Jultice of Crepes Pleas, Sir James Ere, attended bit
the Cabinet, in the eanylested cafe of high uterus:l, charged aide&
Mr Hardy and othem xiiiid after being; to conflated, this Lamed
Judge was petalieloi Meter the comenitnon, although by Ms ad.
vice they was readed and brought to trial. The nature of the
fituation of a ClikfAultice renders him a political, as well as •itt.
dicial chandler. Would not every man in the kingdom be fa..
prifed, if be west told that a late Attorney General had reefed the
office of Chief Jullke, becaufe he had mired himfelf too muds in
State affairs; but it would appear yet more extraordinary, If
a Gentleman In that Gtuation, not feeling loch a repugnance to the
high office, mould (upport with fo much energy the feparadon of
the juridical charadter. There hints were rather thrown out for
the private rededtion of the Hon and Learned Gentleman than for
the general antiunion of the Houle. The principle contended
front the other Ede of the Houle, if right, ought to be carried to
its full event ; and a 'Chief plaice ought neither to be a Privy
Councillor or a Peer of Parliament. Was this high Officer to be
placed In the fame mon...Bic feclullon, left, by meddling with the
affairs of the world, the purity of his habit would be violated?...
As early as the time of Edward 111. Confervators of the Realm
were appointed, and the Chief Juftlce was one of the four no.
urinated. The Conftitu•ion, co various important oceaffcma, teems
to look to the Chief Mice as to the rock on which the national
frcurity Mould be four.ded. With regard to the itteoevenienee
which was fuppored might wife from the refponlibility of the
Chief Jolliet, la hit politital chandler, as a Cabinet Minilter ; lie
had no filch liability, and therefore no loch difadvantage could
accrue. After touching on various other topic., Mr. Shertdan
concluded, with exprefflng his concern at (tiffanies with fo little
propriety and dignity his slew charadter; and the Recife would
cactife him, if. with funh thou notice, he badmen learnt his part.
Mr. WILBERFORCE (upported the motion, after which the
Houle divided op the Ansentinirnti —Ayes, 223.—Noes, be—.
Majority againft the original Motion, tag.

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