Star.
London, England, 1815-05-31 00:00:00

vote for them when it was avowed that no set-twhy

. .
I riented . from IMMO Bii.ihe Empress Wittig their determination not to meet eitha the views of
Claims to shrew kora whence the danger from'them , placed• !tie odder etheeeuelloillince elf the great the Pope,
o_r those of tho Ptoiestint portion of Atte
erase, before they required that the commit overthe .Priests. IV stated thieieelheiv the gross niisonder- 'Emp re. ieven the etetcript of' M. Quaranrotti had
appointment of the Catholic Bishops should be giten standing on this poise. Ladle as he had been an ad- dot been receivedty them with gratitude, thorrgh it
to Government. He appealed to the past conduct of .vocate for coneetsioneto the Catholics, he had never sCas the only means, of removintothe objections ; and
those Bishops, and instanced the Rebellions tof 1715 e contended free, them ott the score of right. nevi con- the author et it was hell up public execution,
1746, and 1798, when they had not only' been loyal tended againkthe right. The Hoese Is id a rit to while even' the Pope himself was not spared. There
t'iemcelves, but exerted themselves with the greatest exclude or to admit elle Catholics to further colices. were other objections gaited, such as the increasing
effort, and often with the greatest success, to pre.
,elpns as it saw proper. He would wish his Honour- of the power of the Crown, hy vesting in it the ap-
serve the Wyatty of all the Catholics of the kingdom. Ole Friend (Sir H. Parnell) had brought forward poi:tenon of the Catholic Bishopo When it was
Why then, if they had proved t'heir loyalty at that Resolutions fit to conciliate all his Mejesty's subjectse supposed that the POpe WAS • favourablee.o the Veer,
time, at periods Of grinding oppression and persecu- .and he would gladly support them. But they were the Catholic leaders turned round, and e tend other
tion, why should they not prove it now, if they bad far from it. Perhaps they mey conciliate four mil- objects to object to ; indeed, they appear(' I to heve
nu oppression or persecution 'to complain of ? The lions of Catholics in Ireland, but there were fourteen tie view but that of keeping Alive a 'spit it. of incur-
Church of Ireland was also very distinct millions of Protestants, who look with a jealousy to rection and therefore any hopes' that die appear be.
from the See of Rome.; and in nothing did the latter any further concessions to-the Catholics. Was not .fore the document ot M. Quarentotti,exite ue longer.
interfere with the former, but hi marriages, fees of even 'the course the Honourable. Baronet had taken He should vote against the motion because he felt
Clergy, and Canonical Institution. Nine as Canoni. reprobated-by half the Catholic population of Ireland? that it Was impossible at this time to pro.,te-e any
cai Institution was the only one of those, points of in. Did the Honourable Baronet seriously approve of it measure to which Parliament ought to console. We
terference, which was supposed in any manner dan. even himself ? As to the oath* mentioned in the 'Re— should never b, ele eci oblain those securities which,
geroto, lie wiitild 'beg to explain this subject. On 'solutions it was wholly abrogated. It was only im in the present dehee'd and degraded state of the Ca
the demise of a Bishop, there were three names sent posed on those who accepted situations under the tholics, ought :and must ever be insisted on. 'elle
to Rome to have a successor arpointed from diem, Crown—end this oath Dr. Milkier said no Catholic admission of their pietcesires betide a Committee
and a recommendation of the one whom the Clergy priest toted take. There was a clause in the Ho- oould only be an indueeMent for them to persevere, ,
aed Bishops of Ireland. preferred. There was scarcely nourable Baronet's Resolutions guile to capacitate in the hope that they might be completelywere succere-
ss.
an instance within the last century, where the Pope the Catholics to fal all officese-(Hear, /tear.) This lid ; but if, on the contrary, the motion
did nut confin in to this recommendation ; so that, in then would capacitate them to fill the Protestant Sees jected, there could be no doubt that the Catholics ,
fact, it was not the Pore but the Bishops of Ireland and the Ecclesiastical Offices in Doctors' Commons. 'would soon resolve to Abandon those violent men who
appointed. It had been formerly reared that any in. Now, how was this at all reconcilible with common had deluded them by false expectations, and thee
terleience on the part of the Pope would be (hinge- reason? And the Resolutions would also remove ell would then come at least to solicit as a boon what
runs, because of having his person iu the power of restrictions and checks. Even Queea leery left over they now demanded mrs a right, and no longer pre- 1.
Bonaparte. But now this cause of apprehension no the Catholics all those check, of prervunire, mortmain, suine to make those pretensions which'
never could be
longei existed. He was led to dwell etimething more eke,. which the modern Catholic! would have re. granted by she Constitution.
fully on this point, because he felt that the appoint. .moved. He had on a former occasion called for se- Mr. MAURICE FITZGERALD could not sup
went of Bishops was time only obstacle 0 Catholic 'veral documents on this question, yet there was but pose, diet after the lest decision there remained any'
Emancipation, and he hoped that the Catholics may 'a single one of them on the table. He would not, man so insensible to the rights and privileges of the ,
telex something on this side, and that the other.side however, oppose going into the Committee,. though people, as to resist the measure now proposed. He
may advance to meet them. In regard to the Reno: he would not support it, because he did not see that denied that the statement of the Right Hon. Gentle-
lotions which he bad the honour to submit to the it could produce any benefit. He would not resist any man ( Mr, Yorke) was corret, that the petitioners
I louse, he submitted for the purpose of conciliation,: thing likely to throw the least new light on the subject. had et:timed as .t tight the enactment of the Bill
and to lay down clearly the extent tat the Catholic Mr. 'volt Kl. expressedhis surprise at the conduct which they had printed, and which he had read.
grievances and claims. Many Protestanti he • knew of the Honourable Baronet who spoke last. With They only claimed to berestored to what the Come.
imagined that the Catholic Claims went to some very a full view of all the dangers which would result tution held to be the rights of the subject. He trusted
subverting ineasuse, and did they not imagine so, from granting the claims of the Catholics; he still that the House would feel that there could be no ob.'
weuld be as zealous for, as ter were now averse to would not oppose taking them into consideration jection to going into the Committee ; and if this were
those claims. But his Resolutions would shew that But he (Mr. Yorke) could not follow this line of refused, they would be Acting in opposition to their
there was no measure required or proposed. Nothing conduct, and he would vote against going into the former vote. Out of this Committee might arise the
was to be taken from the Protestant, though some= Committee. The Bill brought in in the Session of mewls of adopting modifications which might enable
thing was to be granted to the Catholic. With re. 1813, was full of restrictions, yeenow it was sought the House, in another Session, to prepare for come
yard to the matter of those 'Resolutions, the three* to remove all restrictions. The minor points of the piecing the subject, by embodying their present views.
first of them went to remove difficulties and resttic. concessions lie would grant, but on the greater points, He considered not one of the views of those Gentle.,
Lions with regard to property: - Many imagined that the paints which essentially endangered the Constitu- men who had spoken against the motion to be fair
theCatholicshevenothing to complainot on thispoint; lion, he would .require securities before be could arguments for rejecting the Committee. Did their
but this was not the fact ;liar if the Catholic possessor: grant them. The Honourable Baronet said, he had claims for unrestricted emancipation call upon the
of any freehold property did not 'take the oaths and. brought forward his Resolutiuns with i view of see House to enforce that claim ? They did net state
deelaratioos of 177 e and 1793, he could be stripped cuiity and conciliation. But what conciliation was this in the way of diteation : they only wished that
of that property by. any of his family who turned to be expected, when there wets such a difference be- nothing should be left behind, in the way of informa.
Protestant and informed against hiin. Aninstance tween the Catholics themselves, between the different lion, to the utmost extent that it could be afforded ;
of this lately occurred in Ireland with regard to a .bodies of time Cateolics of Ireland, and between the and it was therefore-perfectly consistent to enter into
person of the name of M•lvoy. All that the Catho. Cetholics of Ireland and England. One of the the Committee, to consider how far their pretensions
lies asked was equal benefits, equal adventages, and ' English Catholic Petitions from Sheffield, asked for. were justifiable, and to know what seeurity it was ne-1
equal duties. It any concession to them tees to take: unrestricted concession unaccompanied with any se. cessary to exact from them. All the objections teat
from souther any right, or ally benefit, he would not curity. Zr was argued in favour of such concessions, he heard with respect to the Veto were extremely ir-
sec - it. The Right Honourable Gentleman in the that it was by our Catholic ancestors our Constitu- relevant to the proposition for going into the Com.
Chair (eie Sive ker) and other Gentlemen who voted lien 'it .d been formed. but it was with our Pagan 'meter; and the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
I
with him on tee Ramer discussion of the subject, hit and eaxon ancestors that it had originated. It might Yorke) had been completely misinformed respecting.
exeressed ibex oeillion that every coo...sere, 'srevol 'be toad it was bp our Catholic ancestors matured. any attempt to influence the Pope. So far from it,
be went -d, ohiehotiale. evith safety be seamed; and Yes, it was 4 Henry VIII. and Queen Wiry. he could assure him that a distinguished rson was pe
. now on his way to this country from Rome, with a
under th...e cirrumstances he did not coteceve how i Those who say this, do not know what our Constitu
the House ..could rouse going auto the Committee, as 'lion is. Let the Resolutions of the Honourable BA- preposition which lie thought would prove highly ac.
it was so tully evideni that the removal of those dif- ronet be via-paired with the Bel of last year,
,_ and ceptable to the British Government; and thereto?, if
&allies, with regard to property,' could, without any there would cc found a yes,' rest difference. Theme the Committee, should continue to sit, such objections
I
danger, begvanted. The other Restitutions went 10 were some of the Resolut one to which he had no ob. would be removed as might be thought adverse to.
retwee the difficult es and restrictions with regard to jection, as thow with rasp ct to estates, to marriages, the measure. The discipline of the Catholics in their
religious worship, marriage, and education. Even -and to education, and f the Honourable Baronet own Church was a matter of conscience; but the
now, religious worship was not wholly free to the I would bring in a Bill to remove all disabilities on Veto would have the effect of placing in the hands of
'Catholic soldiery. When he had formerly the honour ; these points, it should hive his most strenuous sup- Protestant politicians the AN!: of the Roman Catho.
to bring this subject under the consideration of the port. But his Resolutions were fur the purpose of lie Church, and this would be liable to the most ma-
House, be was told that there were orders given at granting every thing without any security except an terial objections. Such an interference would give
the Wir Office to give full liberty on this subject to oath. In the Bill of 1814, it was provided that the rise to Sectarians in that Church, as they had arisen
the Catholic soldiery. But he held in his hand a let- Crown should have the power of interfering with the 'in tbe•Protestant Establishment. But whatever the
ter, written within these three weeks from a place introduction of the bulls of the Pope. The third diffefences asigot be, they should not stand in the
Of; ,nd most natural had passed What
of
exception eves the attempt to deny way the Committee.
_ _

doors ought •in no degree to affect the -merits of this
question. It had. long ago been prophesied that de-
lay vt„,uid soon4hrow the Catholics into the hands of
disaffected and violent persons ; but no description of
violence on the part of individuals ought at ail to al-
ter the merits of the-great question itlelf. • As long
as relief is withheld, the lower orders of Catholics are
:furnished with a weapon with whidh to exercise their
purposes of mischief, bat which would otherwise fall
harmless to the ground. The Honourable Gentle-
man then alluded to the conduct of the Catholics,
which had been so deplored, and adverting to Mr.
Grattan?, declining to present the petition, be passed
a high encomium on Lis unvaried zeal and splendid
abilities, which, he trusted, would suffer no diminu-
tion in so great a cause, and hoped he would live to
see the triumph of an event, in the success of which
he b id taken so distinguished a part. He knew that
his Honourable Friend (Sir Henry Parnell) had re-
luctantly undertaken the subject, and he could have
wished it bad remained where it was. It was not to
be supposed that there was a single Catholic in any
part or the kingdom who did not virtually stand at
the bar of that House, and pray it to go into the
Committee on their claims. There were oaly three
individuals ef-great property Who had not signed the
Petition, and therefore there was no proof that they
did not all recognize ,the contents of n. The irrita-
tion that had been wmplained of was the necessary
consequence of delay, and further plucrastinatiom
could not but increase it: The mindi of many indi-
viduals in Ireland had been greatly alienated from
this country by the system that had been pursued,
and the example would be still more seriously fol-
lowed, unless the claims of the Catholics were am.

near Ceti, complaining that the Commanding
cer would not permit his Catholic soldiers to attend
the religious worship of their QWII church. The
Officer had been remonstrated with on the occa-
sion, but wittout effect. Indeed, application to
Government had been, attended to, but without a
legislative measure to grant tree worship to the,
tnditary, any individual Commanding Officer couldi,
defeat the intentions of Government on this subjecui
On the whole, he was sure, if the Home should con-1
sent to embody the Resolutions into a law, they woul4j
confer on the Protestants of Ireland the greatest se-
curity, and on the empire in general, the greateatl
prosperity. They would excite in the Catholics the
most enthusiastic gratitude, and they would unite
every heart and every arm in support of the Govern-
ment. Would they then barter such unmeasurable
advantages for ecclesiastical institution ? There had
been as yet no danger found from ecclesiastical insti.
tution as it is ; and would a possibility of future dan-
ger from it be put in competition with a real union
of both countries, a union of the hearts and minds of
the people. 'Under these circumstances he would
move, that the House do resolve itself into a Com-
mittee to take into consideration the Petition of his
Majesty's Catholic subjects of Ireland.
Sir J. COX HIPPISLEY dissented wholly from.
the prayer of the Petition, which went to ask for up.l
restricted concession. He regretted he was not in
the House when the .English Catholic Petition•w*
read. He was convinced there were not annexed to
that Petition any two respectable names. That he'
wished as mud) as any man to grant the Catholics as
much as could with safety be granted; he felt it his
duty to oppose unqualified concession. The restric-
--ould wish to retain were not restrictions on

the right of the Crown of interfering in the appoint-
ment of the Catholic Bishops; and he would ask any
Gentleman who voted for this Bin list year, whether
it was possible to entertain it now, under all the dif-
ferences of -cirannstances and pretensions ? Was,
there the least probability of our now being able' to
get through the business with satisfaction, when it
was clear that we could neither conciliate nor satisfy
the petitioners ? Had not d petitioners :hewn'
throughout the whole of their erocvedings, the most
inveterate hostility? It was impossible to satisfy
men who had toldns that they would not hear of any
interference in their Church, and therefore he hoped 1
the Hobse would refuse to go inm any Committee at.
all. He never would entertain this question with re-
gard to great conassiens till it was ascertained what,
the See of Rome would do on • the leading points of
it ; as it was necessary that the concession of the ,
Pope should be granted on these paints before we
could proceed at all. He wished it to be stated dis.
tinctly what• securities could be offered ; for he ap-
prehended that not only .nothing had been done at all
in this respect since the question was last agitated, 1
but that nothing hasl•been done up to this very hour.
He had also :townie know, that there was so great
a difference between the Catholics inthe two pans of
the kingdom, that intrigues had been can yingon
with the Pupe to prevent him coming to any decision
at all—(Hear, hear.)—lt would be found that the
most material points of the oath had been left out.
How then was it possible to go on satisfactorily, when
it was evident that the Catholics refused to give this
,one necessary security ? On thewhole he was con-
vinced that nothing practically could be done to con-
ciliate them ; and that the continuation of the subject

tioris he woo._ _ -
the Catholics or on the see of Rome ; but restrictions
on the Pope of Rome. It had been the. invariable
practice•of every country in Europe to impose recric-
tions on the interference of the Pope with its peopled
yet those restrictions', which even Catholic countries
thought it necessary to impose -on the power of the
Pope, were disked to be removed -here. Was it
soy unjust or oppressive power in the Government to
enquire into the charaterottbe individual♦ who was
to be appointed a Ilishopi and if that driracter was
tound imytroycr.• to 'negative' • his 'appointment ? In
every -miter state. the •GOvernment provided some
guaiii over tlie'Ciergy: Why should we not do so in
emintry ' The Jesuits were about to be revived,
end he winvasited,-Lwinst dmiger there -could 'be ap.
' front 'there!, dump- there •should be no

prehended ► ikth
gusto/tor thest-t it was said thaw Jesuits existed in
ite{ax, awl dot .thetivhad beta. sd ester ape.

as a matter of discunion, would only lead to disturb-
ances in the country. He should therefore vote-
against going into the Comar.tittee.
Mr. KNOX was of opinion that nothing would do
lOW to strengthen the alliance between the Catholics
of Ireland and Great Britain this the granting them
the object of their petition; but he believed that the
Parliament never would aggeerto concessions which
•woulristot eaclode them hilh all interference. of the
PAlnd antbdrirf. He did hope, though as it had:
appeared wrongly in 1813, dtat this matter alibi
have been accommodated, as all the objections Ought
have teen obirinted br tbe Pope.; and, he thought,
that that liberal. Potentate would not have hesitated
thus to benefit so great a portion of his flock But
if the prospetts which then - I were fhttyrring,

appeared.,
they h:d altogether banished by the condttet ;it
the Catholics of Ireland) who hod- °Milk/remit

ceded by the wisdom of Parliament: But when this
was done, we might completely defy all the attempts
of the disaffected.
Sir C. HIPPISLEY explained.
Mr. Serjeant BEST said he never could have con-
ceived that when voting on a fernier occasion for
going into a Committee, he should have been con-
ceding to the Catholics the whole of their demands.
but merely to consider what extraordinary concessions
ought to be Made, without even any reference as Ulf
the-time when they should take place. He waithere-
fore surprised to hear, the Hon. Baronet assert that
all had been agreed to. But even if this were the
case; he should conceive that those who voted for the
concessions at that time would nut agree to the pr—
Frady of them now. it '

(. .4$ . to be .izxpeeted
wbei Oettlomen voted for the coricestions on the
priocipie of security being gines this they should

•
wnuld be given at all He was not prepared to sa,
that so much of the Constitution should be given
as should admit them to seats in that House, and th.:

Honourable Baronet was wrong in his inference. It
was competent its the House to amend the Bill wlth•
out going into the ComMittee, and if any Member
would bring in a Bill for this pt, pose, he would give
it Lis support ; but he would !:ot allow the expecli-ncy
of going into the Committee. for the purpose of
cussing the claims. The Catholics did not come
forward now to ask for any:favour, but to demand

what they asserted to be a tight ; and their preteii•
bi.)es were liable to w) otller constructinn. It e;
however, for the House v judge whit ei:uld be &1r.,-
for the Catholics of Ireland, Its well .is tor the way,

and wishes of any other clazs at the people ;
they were not to be told that-they weie obliged tort,
so. r,is WAS net the way-in which may body et
ought to appeal to tbe.LegislAture of the cow..
Ls y.• The Learned sezjetsot then alluded to a publi-
cation ti 1)r. Minor, in which it was asserted, Thu

the Catholic might.be.justitied even in certain netsof
treason against an heretical King,,-,and said, that
though the Doctor's conduct had. been. disavoweil by
the Catholics of En land, they had been approved
of
if
by those of Itelan He th.light, ks the Pipe was
n.iw restored, the - o
uA ought not to stir a step be.
fore knowing what was the power of this Potentate,
and Wildt he intended to.do on .the subject, particu-
larly as no longer since than 18(g, his 1-I.4iness had
said in his pastoral letter,.that all oaths taken against
the doctrines of the Citholic Church were null and
void. The Catholics themselves had circulated all
over the country a Bill, the contents of which were
like saying 66 Give us all, or v.i will take n.ahiny.."
It was thcrefore Certiiiily n-t necessary to g' i!:t0 4
Committee, since it was impossible to give tb. as :.ny
sataaction, without a tacit acquiescence un all their
demands.

• Mr. PONSONDY declared that he would not
enter into Any debate upon the sot:y.ct, as Le had e;
often delivered his sentiments up.,r, it, that reptiLii
would be as tedious to the House as disgusting to
himself. He was ready, hovvcver, ui ackniewledgc,
that neither the time nor the mode chosen was the
most judicious. But he would vote for the Commit-
tee only that the House might have an oppntuoity
of inquiry. If it could be thought that any man who
vived lot. the Committee was compelled to ado's: tar
resolutions of the Catholics, he should say that ti.is
would be a perversion of all the objects of the Com-
mittee ; for no Bill could be brought in on die sub-
ject of religion, unless when the whole House in a
Committee prcpoiel the regulations. In voting for
the Committee, he held himself tree as to any vete
he might give in it-; and he protested against
I.)ounal to support the question. He cinsidered it,
:Wpwever, to involve the peacC, security, and the hap.•
of tl.e whole community. Yet, though Cle
cary.,,lic:; might demand what they pleased, no man
Was bound to concede mere than he thought proper.
lie bad always regarded the measure itself as t!.e
greatest security ; but he nevertheless thought tit it
the Catholics would be wise and prudent to considir
bow far they could comply with Vie wishes, ter it yin
please, with the prejudices of the Protestant 11 'rem-
'trent. The Right Hsiu praised
the conduct ICI. Grattan, and* Loyed that .the
treatment he had received from iiadrviihrals wduli
not induce 'him to„vote against a question .tekich
could not be considered as of the higlazst interest. •
Mr. PEELE objected to the motion ef the Hon.
Baronet, as he conceived it would be derogatory
the character and dignity. m tile. House .to entertaie
it. The condition ,order which the ;louse formetly
supported it was, that secirriti-s u ere neceeary. Ile
therefore differed materially -fri in the Right How.
Gentleman who spoke last, in the ',pinion that these
were of no consequence. It the. Committee were et:.
tered into, the result would be the sank • ac it Aar
last year, and would only produce disuniiin and :is.
%elation'. It was most material to look ~,t the Reso.
*lotions and proceedings of those who Ate the
authorities of the Catholics of Ireland ; and he uoult
say, that it the motion of the Hem Baronet were
adopted, there was no prospect of conisig to the
result that was expected. The Honoiirabw Baronet
had told us that the result would be to receive assur•
antes of gratitude from the Catholic's ; but ice thuull
have thmight that lie would have been the last E.,
talk of the gratitude of the Catholic Coanitice•—•
When we were told by him that it was not worth
. while to squabble about the subject, at WAS WOTell
, while to take a short review or the proceedings which
led to the Petition, and the causes through which it
deVolved upon the [-honourable I.l.aunet. The Right
Honourable Gentleman then re:eireil so varreas
printed Pipers, and described the history of the le.lf
called the Catholic Associs.tion, headed by 14:.
Q'Conne.l. It originated at the begianitig of
;old was :.011ntli of Catholic Peers, the solli of Pew,.
and otuer persons of consider able property. it Ic°
considered as a body delegated by the Catholics ct
Ireland, and entrusted with the manigement of din
affairs. But two of tl.e tlemberstaving been art.:.
ed for undue interference at elections, ar.d being c°'
victed, the Body was ostensibly dissolved. An Ag
gregate /sleeting was then called, which decland
that. that Association had the full.confidencc oh el
Catholic Body. The Catholic Board or Aggregis
Meeting continued in operation till List year, when
WAS dissolved by the Lord Lieutenant, declaring i'
to be an illegal Body. A short time alierwaris :11.!
other Aggregate !sleeting was held, and one of 1110'
resolutions advised every Menthes- who cempoot
this illegal assembly tO'persevere. .\ kuer was tv't•
written to every individual- to Loam what is called:
voluntary association. It was at the iriluest 43 tb''
Association that the Honourable Baronet ua
deflates to present the l'erition.—(Sir Fl. P ta•g"
here rose to ord?r, and iota the report of the mania:
WAS incorrect.)—lf not cot rcct, he would lly tt aswie:
however, the fact uas, 'liar the lionour.hit Biro",
had agreed to present Lie Petition. He u. ula ass
whether any Ger-merman, who had witnessed en
agitation and distortrances exceed by Cies.'
tNt
Bodies, could believe that they-augured any hal':
dons of-peace arni creicord ? Fonds were raised iftt,
every lionseholain, b, a euguribution tit fen.pence,
defray the expeuces or the Petinon. add ctery per.''.
who refused to:contlitute• had ho itaroe marked.—
Atm. ;.ding matt) nal, Of the proceestiol.s os`*;,
e, .. 'lardy, to promise the, sis clay •hed in.srift
asked WIICI.Ier Any b.aiy (.1 mu who had acted
a such risciplee genii.' do any thing favourable w