Star.
London, England, 1812-05-08 00:00:00

•
He was happy to find his opinion of that subject he slid not feel himself called on to dispute. That the
supported by the 11th and 18th Report of the Corn- offices in question,
_however, were to be put, ost a.
nussioners of Public Accounts, to which he liad Al- footing with offices in the Church, he was not so tiro-
ludea, -Ad brief extracts from which he - Id read roughly convinced. In the Church there were great
. .-
and

, anc •
a, the House. [The Honourable MemberN here read
two extracts confirming the principles which he had
laid down.] Here then, 'he continued, their atithozior
completely supported his opinion, that offices ware
not in the nature of Estates granted by the crown, .
but that they were indisputably under the con:rout
and power of • Parliament. In fact, every session
offered proof of the fact, in every Session Bills were
passed, which violated that salted right, as it was
called; that -freehold right in the property of the
taxes of the country. • In all loans and sohsidies to •
foreign Princes, it was violated, iforthe fees which
belonged to the Tellers of the Exchequer were al-
ways excluded. Mr.. Burke's Bill also for limiting
the ameunt of secret service money to B€loo,otk rs
year, violated that presumed right : for they derived
their largest poundage from the issue of secret service
money, and they Might have said when that measure
was proposed, " if you diminish the amount of secret
service money, you will deprive us of the means of
thriving; you cannot do this; bur right is sacred,
and must not be violated." Such might have been,
at that period, the language and remonstrance of the
Tellerships of the gulaequer, if, as was contended,
their rights in the Office, were not tube touched by
the authority of Parliament. In submitting to the
consideration of the House the RetolttiOns whict he
held in his hand, his object was to comprise in them
the history and origin of the office in question ; the
opinioe of the Commiesionets of Public Accounts.;
and such incontrovertible facts with regaid .to the
fees, as might lead the House to propose a •teductott
of them. lie did not call upon the House, indeed,
to state what would be their precise amount so rit,
duced, but to make them more conformable to the I
emoluments of similar offices, and Snore suitable sO,,
the present condition of the country. The Hugs.
Member then read his Resolutions, and the first being
put, namely, " That the office of Tellership of the
Exchequer was executed entirely by. deputy, and
granted to the present possessors of It for services.j
done by their respective fathers."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
arose, to state his determination of moving the pre-
vious question, in order to get rid of all the iatro-
ductory, Resolutions, and of negativing the last.—
The first Resolution, he observed, might be affirmed
without any. hesitation, except so far as would imply
perhaps an intention on the part of the House to en-'
tertain-the rest. With regard to the speech of the
Honourable and Learned Member, it seemed to him
peculiarly open to refutation. He seemed to think
that the persons .holding the office in question had
no vested rights in that office ; but, that they had
vested rights in the grant was undoubted. The office
indeed was coeval, he might say, with the Exchequer
itself, and than proved the right of the Crown
to grant it. If then the grant was legal, could it be
maintained for a moment that they had no legal
rights in that grant? But the Honourable Gentle.*
man had endeavoured to establish, a difference with
regard to offices and estates granted by the crown ;
. . able to

he -believed, however, it woild not be, possi,. _ t.
adduce any case in which that difference could be
clearly made out. The Right Honourable Gentle.
man then proceeded to contend, that the right of the
office was in no way involved in the eXtrut of the
emoluments derivable horn it. In 1762 the
.principle
had been laid. down, because all the tvgislattons theft
establiAied had a prospective operation, aid did not
at all interfere with vested lights. This was the
reason why offices said to be useless, and even bur-
densoMei were not atiolished till at least after the
death:of the then existing holders. He concluded by
moving the previous estien.
Mr. I'GNSONBY differed from doOmeiositious laid
down by his Honourable Friend (Mr. Credvey)—.
Jie contended that by thllaw of England, an estate
in office might be, and was in many cases, as much
private prcperty as any other species of property
could be. They who. doubted this position might
turn to the first. law authorities of the country, and
froth them get that information of which they seemed
to be so ignorant--(Heaps !tear.) There were offices
in fee descending to heirs general-44 be should be

ice ; .. snout, emit too qua
existed before the Norman conquest. The power to
grant or to width, Id money, howercr, had boot as-
serted long since by that House; anti that being dog
case, was the Crown to telt town, that, besiaes the
nsces:sary supplies, they must raise another certain
sum to an officer, whom toe Crown had created for.
the purposes of emolument ? It was also in, the
powerot Parliament to say, whether, besides the stlm
for the public exigencies, they would also raise a Ea..
tber sum to be paid to any such officer t tie was
.confident, if the House went into the Committee, it
would be seen that they had on former occasions re.
gulated those offices, both with and without the con-
currence of the Tellers theniselves, As to the fund''
for.the liquidation of the national debt, and the other
enormous sums raised for war taxes, how could it be
contended that lees ought to he paid, as a matter a
righs, to any officer through whose hands they chart—
, ced to pass. If when Mr. Pitt first thought of raising
to taxes for carrying, on the war within the year, any
person had ought of proposing that the sum so
I
raised shoul
sot exempted from ate payment of these

,glad to know whit right lltrliamentityntild have to
touch them The power no doubt they-laad„ but.,
the power wax not the right.' -Ho thought kliiiittslien
an office was legally- granted to a legAl grailett,
Parliament could have uo right in thi-a6tract to in.
teriere with that office—,any proceeding on the part
of the Executive in avowed hostilicy to ptivate right
in favour of public' benefit, could hot be looked at
v, ith too .much "caution—(Hear, hear.) liceaute,
there was no saying where sucha principle should
itop--it might be argued upon such a principle that
the Bishops ebuld discharge their episcopal duties,
though theta sees were more limited in poitu of reve-
nue—the same reasoning might be brought to bear
against the holders of tythes. The truth of it WAS,
that if power were alto/eel them to act against pri-

txchequer was confinced no oae could have
objecte4 to it. .And. if the principle could be inter-
ed with at all, so far from being a. plinciple which
was inviolable, he submitted it must be held to be no
principle at all. It was for the House. then -to say
what was to be done ; and though he (Mr. Whit-
bread) was prepared to go to the whole lergth of the
Resolutions, yet, if the Amendment WAS preferred,
he had no objection to agree to it. He was convin-
ced' thee, was not a subject in the realm who would
not tamest if those officers were above the contruul
of the House. Let the services of the late Earl Cam-
den or of Mr. George Grenville be as meritorious as
they could be imagined, he could not help being pa-
suAled that they would be amply rewarded even by
the amount of the emolument drawn by the late rust

vnteright, there would be an end tra property—(lieur,
hoer.) He believed it, on the wlinle, better for the
public, that the two personages in question should
continue to receive the usual emoluments than that
by the abolition of those offices a new principle sh, old
be introduced which might go to hazard the perma-
nency of those existing regulations by which property
is secured to the legal owners. He was aware, that
the sentiments which then fell from hint might be
Fensurect as unpopular. He slould regret that they
were so, but no regret or apprehension of that nature
should ever deter Lim from the publiz avowal of
those principles which appeared to hint to be essential
to the real imerests:of the country— (Hear, hear.)
Mr. BR*NMaid that there could be no 41t41 LA of
the purity of the motives which influenced the opt-
pions of Right licinourable Gentleman` on that,
an( evry other public question • he regretted; these-
fore, to dam from m he did, .upon ale present
question. He thpught the introductory resolutions
-eotildhay. no tendency to,invade private right, and
xsi to.the cOnFiuding resolution, when the preo.dhlg
cues were dikpmed of, it was his intention to move
an AmendmenL
I,ord. A. HAMILTON was file from disputing
the iiii.Fiplalird'down by the tiro Right Honour.
ablof;entlemen tP,erceval ansif fonsonli)), as to. the
proiniftra affording every sanction and supprpt to
private property. Even the doctrine laid down by
his Right Honourable Friend (Ponsonby), that
fits were to be consiiereda4in the nature of estates,

Lord of the Admiralty (Mr. Yorke) is Teller of the
Exchequer. He thought there could be uo doubt
that Parliament, if. it chose, might order that the
sums to be raised in taxes for the present. ear should
pass through the Exchequer, without payiag any fern
whatever.
Mr. HORNER wasilesirons of stating his reaseeq.!
for the opinion he entertained on this subject.
thing, he conceived, could be so clear as Luis, that in
alliregillations for economical purposes vested tights
must be sacredly protected. It there was even a so-
litary precedent (as had been alledgcdj in the year"
1740, in which a contrary tine it piorerdilig had
prevailed, still he should have held, that .‘ b.td
precedent, and one which ought not to be followed.
No man could deny the right of the House to iegu-
late, reform, and even abolish offices ; but still that
must be done subject to regulations. He Was pe:
pares tb go as far in regulations which had economy
tor their object as any man ; but, in doing so, the
rithts of those having vested interests in such offices
were to be-kept sacred. The property of the Sutter,
Was not to be protected at the expeuce of private,
property. All property was the creature of the law,
and equally depended un it fur ptotection. If this
printaple were once broken through by the House,
temptation would grow upon then;, and there would
be no end to it.
Mr.. BAN 4.ES fully agieed in the propriety of pre-
serving inviolate the private t ights of parties. Let not
the Heave, however, in an o!epeousideration for psi.

•

•.

4

• .
rate interests, forget that they had 'Aso the
intetcst to look altar. He was of opinion
emoluments of the offices in question had
infinitely beyond what

..,ety bey__ .eat WAS reasonable. He
important -duties to perform. The Church had if the House, as the guardians of the publi
grown with our growth, and strengthened with our saw a mode of paying out the public money
strength--whereas the offices in• question had only seeare as that now resorted to, of paying
I..rown and increased with the burdens and distresses first piece into the Exchehuer, there could be
of the country, by which they 'were fed and thou- that they might do so. The emoluments
rished, and through which alone they now produced offices, as already said, wee escessive, an,.
such enormous emoluments, as to have suggested to House chose to apply a cure, he thoight they
his Honourable Friend the propriety of the pre- the power of doing so, without giving to any
sent motion. 'According to the doctrines lai4 de,wu being a right to complain. He did not wi
by his Right Honourable Friend, whatever might at however, to. be done by Compulsion, but ,
any time be the amount of the emoluments of those merit between the Chancellor of the Excheq,
offices, the House could not interfere to regulate or the public on the one hand, and these Tellers
restrain them. If by the lapse of time, supposing 'Xichequer on the other.
Lord Camden to live thirty or forty years longeri • Mr: 131LTHURST rose amid loud cries ,
and supposing the 'amount of the offices to increase in Sion l He admitted- that the fees received by L
the same proportion as they had hitherto done, still Tellers of the Eli:fanner were now mud; larger than
it would be etinallriocompetent for the blouse t 4 in, at the_tims the ananion of the offices but this
terfere then as now. It the House could not now inter- could not be urged as any suEoient reason fur invp
fere, the amount to which the Ices of office .might (nog private property. As welt might it be said that
increase, however exorbitant, could make no differ. ;.the Chancellor should be deprived of the large env).
ence. If instead of A'30,000 alear, which these 'l'd. laments arisitigfroir, banicrupteits, be(ause in modem
lerships now produced, they should amount up IQ times they had been so greatly augmeeted. If the
£130,000, still, on the principles on which his Right attempt were to frighten the Noble Lords into a se-
Honourable-Friend argued the question, the House cession. some ground at least ought to be stated ca
had uo right to interfere ! This was: a doctrine to , which the thtearwas to be fotmda. ; above all, he
which as a guardian of the public purse, he eouldnot censured any attack by a. side wind.
iuffer himself to agree. When the two Noble Lorde Mr. WII.BERFOItCE wished, before SheFiqie
came to any -decision, that all the tacu.councoad
alluded to wereappointed thoseuffices, they yielded
weie held urakr
about seven thousand pounds a-year each, and now with the two Tellerships of the Escheoner shouldkr
they produced, to each of the Noble Lords,. about brought before it. He was desirous "of- kneeing
• thirty thousand pounds a-year.—[No, no, only about whether thew offices were in reality to be deemed
private property, or whether they
dilki,ooo or r€ 25,0. 00, from the Ministerial Benches.]
• His Lordship rejoiced to hear the Right Honourable any qualification or condition ?
Gentlemen opposite object to this, because, if they , Mr,TIERNtY felt it necessary to state distinctly
admitted that the amount had and thing to do with his opinien upon this question, that he might summa
the question, then they admitted she force of his ar- his share of the unpopularity which *ould attach is
guments, and conceded that if the emolument did ex-
a complete concurrence with hip Right Hun. Friend
, teed what was reasonable—if, for instance, they (Mr. PonsOnby). He objected to the time when
should amount to sixty thousand pounds a-year, then this subject was introditced, because the House had
it would be fit for the Houre to interfere. For his now before it a Sinecufe Bill, which would in, 4
own part, be would never consent to give his vote I-probability be passed here, but thrown out elsewhere,
that the House could not interfere to the effect of re. ! and he was unwilling that any additional ergotism
should be afforded for such a vote. because it would
I gulating the amount of %the emoluments. arising to
any public officer. I'fie only question, he conceived be contended, and with great fairness, that the Cow
ions having passed a Bill conditionally against sine.
was, whetherthe House could or could not interfere?.
and if called to give his vote on this subject, he. must cures, emboldened• by their success, were now pro.
give it in behalf or the public. ceeding a step further; ancre-ere even attempting is
Mr. LYl'Td-E1•ON said he should vote for the; invade and destroy a vested interest, which he
amendment of his Hon. Friend (Mr. Brand.) I slated was the situation in which these offices must
Mr. WHITBREAD begged shortly to state his •be contetophsted, since they were so recognised by
sentiments on the present question, differing, as he the laws of England. Another reason Oliy he could
was sorry to do entirely, from his Riget Hon. Friend' awe concur in the mosion. was, that the Noble Per*
near him (Mr. Popitonby), not pn tee principles laid ' sonagit now occupying
.tle.se places. were far ado
by him, but on the application of them. His Right
vanced in life •
; be recomaseuued that if the questio,
Hon. Friend talked of the legal rights of
Parties ought to be decided, it should be formally tried is
holding offices which might be a en hereditably seta. ; Court of Law. He maistkeed that a purciauer cf
red to them, and of which not even the most minute I the life interest of either vi /him Tederships
perquisite could be touched without the consent of valuable consideration could not by owed inlay
the parties. This he sixfold be sorry to dispute with "Ccntrt of. Judicatnre after the Act of is which
his Right Hon. and Learned Friend,. He should : rime vested interest of the holder was ectaceleaged
admit that the Crown had the power to appoint a., L Parliament.
Teller of the Exchequer, and to give hint certain fees , Mr. CfREE,VEY: declared his intention of not di.
of °E.- he should adr - that the Exelsequer _ _

riding the }Rothe ell ftis original U 6011601, but ult
the atnntidmentolliis Hon. Trend.
Mts !MANI) mind his amendment, which us,
“that a Committee.beappwai,ed to enquire into the
precedents which mist as to the dettiA.t.on mow) VG
suppiessiosi of, any•fees payable to the 'raters aiwic
Excheepter for monies issued Put of the samt.!'
4fter somatic from sl4a CHANCELLO R. of do
EXCHgclukft•tiscliquOrgiiciod span Mr. Elias
A mendmem, —fur thst Apmadm4scSb--48.4"4
146—Majority 108, •
The originalitesolution bf Mr, Cazavar vas aft*
wards negatived without a division,
PARLIAMBSTARY REFOBNI. •
The Marquis rf TAVISTOCK rose, in pursmast
of notice, to move for leave to bring in a Bill orbiti
would have the effec'enf amending the state of is
Representation of the People in Parliament. Hts
JArdship made some remarks upon the aogasentnl
influence of the Crywn, declaring that by anew a
it the Sovereign was enabled to retain in his wise
Ministers whose conduct had his approbation,
measuics were- universally condemned thilrg
.

people, who ldudly called tot their exclusion
power—(litar, hear.) It would not be denied, be
apprehended, that the votes in Parliament were goo
times in direct opposition to the seutimenu of tel
nation at large ; and he believed it would be equallr
readily admitted, that some reform was nee,:ssary.—
He did not mean to say that it. would be proper, ia
the first instance, to adopt one general or violent
measure to attempt an immediate reform ; an the
contrary; he thought the only wise and prudent mole
would be to proceed step by step, until at length dio
object s 3 much desired was attained—a full, fair,
and adequate Representation of the People in Parlia-
ment—(Near, hear.) The accomplishment d the
design would be much mote probable if the Howe
advanced with caution, than if it at once resolved to

•
overthrow existing and long eitabliihed rights. rbe
purpose he had in view by the Bill he should alter.
wards submit to the I-louse, was to limit to a certain
extent the expences of county Eiections—(Hear,4oo
In the firstalace he should endeavour to prevent vie
great inconvenience to which freeholders were subject,
in travelling to the town where the electiun was to uke
place, and in the next place to put an end to the
wr
rupt practice of giving money to voters nodes the pca
tame of defraying the charges they hxd incurred *
coming to p4ll.—tic shOuld suggest thartheelectoo
should be allowed to give in then votes in the huedal,
in which they resided, and that one day be aPPom".
for renewing suffrages in each hundred. • He 11100111
add to this the establiJimetic of a Special County cson
fur the nomination of candidates. His Lordship dill
moved for leave to ba iug n a Bill 1.4 for regulmg the
election of .ffe,uights of the Shire to serve in
Yam
At."
The CHANCELLOR. of the EX,CHEQUII
had no intention to oppose the motion, Wei/twit co •
reed on the face of it recommendation ; but, std.
same time lie wished to be disiinctly understood, di!! '
he gave no opinion' whatever as to expedist”
the proposed'regulations, and he wished paw.
to disclaim any idea of such a Dill being accesses/I
consequence of any ovtrgiciivii influence of tbe_Cara
being exerted to keep in any Adrniniuratiuo,' PIT!
not conceive, that in the present state df
the Crown was able to maintain anyMomml
to thej Udgment of Parfiament and des recipse4Wl

he 131-44 it
[ that the
increased
e thought .
iic purse,
y equally
it in the,
nn doubt,
of' thuse
inc! if the
they had
ny humatt
wish this,
an agree_
equer for
lets of the.
of Qum
br *dip