Star.
London, England, 1801-03-10 00:00:00

MAMA Of TNt ROLLS TN !MILANO._

Lcrd CASTI•EREAGH moved, "That the Houfe
thould refolve itfelf into a Committee on the hill
Mailer of the Rolls Bill." The Houfe having re-
folved itfill into a Committee, Mr. FRENCH in the
Chair,
Mr. SHERIDAN faid, that this Bill was of much
more importance than it feemed in general to be
thought to be. In the &It place, he did not ap-
prove of a meafure which would enable the N:-.1-,!e
Lord who fo much to his own honour, and to the
!)cnt:fit of the Country, filled the Office of Chan-
ccllor, in Ireland, to ba abfent for any confidera-
Me length of tune. With refpeil to the falary
which it was propofed to give to the Mailer of the
Rolls, he certainly did not objeft to it, but he
thought, under the prefent circumilances, it
ought not to be borne by the Public. At prefent
there were two Noblemen who held the Office of
Keepers of the Rolls, whole Places he under-
flood to be finecures ; now it appeared to him but
fair, that the Salary to be paid to the Mailer of
the Rolls, should rather be made up out of thefe
finecure Places, than out of the Public Purfe.

Lord CssrLrisritc H fluted that the objea of this
Bill was to make the Office of Mailer at the Rolls
in Ireland, an efficient Legal Office, with a Salary
of 3,5c:01.—8ut as the regular fees of that Offce
were not fafficient to make up that turn, it was
propofed that the remainder fhould be made good
out of the Confolidated Fund : therefore, all that
the Public would be called upon to make good
would be the difference between the propored Sa-
lary, and the Fees of the Office. As to what the
Hon. Gentleman laid, refpe,fting the two Noble
Lords who were at prefent Keepers of the Rolls,.
it was neceffary to inform the Hcn. Gentleman,
that a Bill paired is the laft SelTion of the frith
Parliament fimilar to one which palled in England,
for allowing the Judges to be fuperannuated on
Penfions.—ln that Bill a Provifion was made, al-
lowing the Keepers of the Rolls to claim an in-
demnification, it being then forefeen that it Would
be necefftry to make the Mailer of the Rolls an
efficient Legal Officer. As this went to estinguifh
the Office of Commiffioners or Keepers of the
Rolls, it was thought fair, that perfons who had
not been guilty of any delinquency, fbould not
be deprived of their offices without a compenfa-
tion.

Mr. SHERIDAN laid, he was not aware of the
Bill having been palled in Ireland, but in his opi-
nion it made the ntcafure worfe. As to allowing
the Judges to be fuperannoated on a Petition, no
man could °Nee to it. Nothing could I:4 snore
proper than that a perfon who had devoted feve-
ml years of his life to the fervice of the Public, in
an arduous and laborious fituatinn, fliouici have a
Provifion made for him in his old age; but this
bore no refemhlance to the fuperannuation of two
non-entities, who could always do their duty, for
the heft poffible re4fon, becaufe they had nothing
to do.
Lord CASTLEETAGH laid, that upon this occa-
lion the Parliament of Ireland had aged upon
thole principles which he believed always govern-
ed the Parliament of both Countries, viz. that
thole who were deprived of their Offices without
any milconduet of their own, ()mold receive' a
compenfation. The Parliament of Ireland, who
certainly were the belt judges upon the fubjea,
had confsdered it, and had given their fanaion to
the principle for which be wia now contending,by
providing the means for thole who now held the
Office (and who were now to be deprived of it,
not in cnnfequence of their having done any thing
wrong, but bccaufe the Public fervice required a
different arrangement) of retiring with compen-
fai ion for their Infs.
Mr. SHERIDAN decidedly refitted the principle
of compenfation laid down by the Noble Lord.
He was ready to admit, indeed, that it was cur-
tomary and jolt, that where a public officer held
a place for life, qualm Atte kneglirit—if the public
arrangement of the country called for the diffolu-
tion of his office, or where his long Cervices called
upon his country, M his old age, to fupetannuate
him, upon the continuation of his falary. But
he could admit no parity in principle or propriety
between fuch a cafe and that of public officers
holding their places merely at the will of the
crown and those too places in which they did
nothing, nor could they be competent to do any
thing efficient ; and in which, as no duty what-
ever was required of them but to fign the receipt
for their !Marie:, confequently they would be
guilty of nn delinquency that could fubjea them
to the rifle of (lit-miff:ll, except at the mere plea-
titre of the crown. But to continue to men their
fidaries, under the pretence of fuperannuation, and
reward for putt Services, w hen in fail they did no
ferrice at all, but were a dead burthen on the
country, and this at a tinte, ton, when it became
ahfolutely neceffat y to appoint at a much higher
salary, a new officer to do that ditty in which the
prefent incumbents were totally inefficient—to
burthen the country with continual petitions to
men, under the pretence of fuperannuation, who
were about to be appointed to new places, perhaps,
equally inefficient, was a thing, in his mind, wholly
inachniffible, and to which, he truited, the Houft
would not ..-onfent.

Mr. Gaye fully coincided with the arguments
jult urged by his Honourable Friend ; and he
begged to know, upon what principle or prece-
dent it Vils, that the Noble Lord contended for
the propriety of continuing to men removed from
offices held inereiy during pleafure, at the will of
the crown, their ofhcial falaries for life, and more
efpecially in offices, fuch as their Bill alluded to,
offices of mere finectire ? The Noble Lord talked
of ft..-11 a principle admitted and underitood by
the Parliamer.t of Ireland prcvinufly to the Union.
lint he would alit the Noble Lord, was this the
principle he himfelf had obferved towards Gen-
tlemen holding offices in that country, and who
were difroilfecl front thole offices at the will of the
crown ? Was this the piineiple the N.ffile Lord
had maintained tirtiards a Right Hon-. Baronet
ilea:. him, who many yiiN pitenlcd with indefa-
tigable exertion and ditintguilhod charefier and
ability over the finances of that country, but who
was difniiffed from than ntfice-hc co long held with
fi-ni..ur to if and ad..anayc t.c: the ni:ivein,

ment, for prefuming to vote againft that Union
brought forward by the Noble Lord ? Were the
long and arduous fervices of that Right Hon. Ba-
ronet, or thole of Several other old and faitl.ful
fervants of the crown in Ireland. contidered as
any ground of claims to compenfation wizen they
were dill:life(' from oilier for no other delinquency
than voting under the diaates of honour and of
confcience again:! the Union brought forward by
the Noble Lord, but which they conci.ived equally
ruinous to their country and to the interefts of the
empire. With theli precedents, in dire& con-
tradittion to the doarine laid down by the Noble
Lord, he called on him to thew, by any jolt nfage,
precedent, or in inciple, how any claim to corn-
pentation was founded, for men enjoying for a
teries of years a Sinecure falary for doing nothing;
the duties of which they were utterly incompe-
tent, and to render whole office efficient, it became
neerilary to appoint a new officer, with a very high
additional falary ? So far from contidering it a
meafure of either principle or juitiee he could
view it in no other hill it than as a molt flagrant job.
Mr. RYOUL coniidered the oblations offered I
from Honourable Members on the other tide of
the Houfr, as wholly irrelevant to the Bill now
before the Committe.:, and 'which was merely a
Bill for regulating and rendering more efficient the
duties of the office ; but having nothing whatever
to do is.ith the hi:fillets of compenfatron, which
had been already fettled by the frill: Parliament
previous to the Union.
Mr. ALEXANDER WI tly replied to the argument
of Lord Caftlereagh and Mr. Rydn,..
Mr. M. A 'far LOR obferved,that what had fallen
from the hail Him. Gentleman ferved to convince
him that all the advantage gained by the Union was
a fet of jobs. He was as detirous as any one that
the office of Matter of the Rolls in Ireland should
be properly filled, but he did not confider himfelf
precluded from difeurfing the queltion relative to
any compenfation to be made to the two noble per-
fons who held the office of Commitlioners of the
Rolls in Ireland by an Ad of thg Irith Parlia-
ment. A claufe might be added to the prefent
Bill, for the purpole of repealing that Aft of the
.Parliament of Ireland. Were the Commiffioners
of the• Rolls appointed gram iliufe kir IT:Print ? No:
why then could not the Crown difmifs them, and
appoint other perfons more proper and more effi-
cient in their room ? He defied the Noble Lord to
produce a precedent' of ant compenfation being
granted for- the lots of an office which was held;
during the pleafure of the Crown : and why fhould
thefe noble perfons receive a compentation for never
having done any thing ? One of them was at Ber-
lin, and flill in the receipt of his Wary as Com-
miffioner of the Rolls in Ireland. It Teemed to him
to be a mere job ; and he did not even think him-
felt juflified in giving his cOnfent td do that by an
Aet of Parliament, which it was always in the
power of the Crown to do, render the office of
Mailer of the Rolls in Ireland an efficient office.

Lord CASTLERNAGI4 contended that the elude
mentioned by the Hon. Gentle Man Would be nei•
they more nor lefs than a breach of faith with the
Parliament of Ireland. It never was in the con-
templation of that body, that a Mailer of the Rolls
fhould be appointed at the expence of the Comtnif-
fioners of the Rolls; it was wholly foreign to their
intention, and he hoped the United Parliament
would not commence their proceedings by a breach
of faith towards Ireland. As to the propriety of
appointing an efficient Mater of the Rolls in Ire-
land, he had heard but one opinion, nor could he
conceive the Houfe would difent from a meafure
fo evidently beneficial to Ireland, for the fake of
any conlideration of expence.
Mr. M. Al TAYLOR raid, he wiflied the Houfe
to paufe a little, that they might confider more
clofely the A& which the Noble Lord called faith,
but which be called fraud. He thought it impof-
fible any evil could arife from a little delay, and
he mutt have more timito confider before he could
content to impofe an additional burden upon his
conaituents. He therefore Mond, that the Chair-
man fhould report progrefs, and 'a& leave to fit
again.
Mr. Joxes laid he had heard the Bill called by
an Hon. Gentleman a flagrant job, and he did not
hear the Noble Lord over the way deny it. He
thought the Houfe ought to take time to confider.
The Committee then divided—For Mr. M. A.
Taylor's motion 46—AgainR it tog.
When we re-entered the Gallery, the Haute was
Rill in a Committee. _ _

Mr. SHE' IDA ti was upon his legs, obferving that
the Chancellor of Ireland could better do his duty
in that country than in this. He then made fome
obfervations upon a claufe juil brought up by Lord
Caftlereagh relative to the apOntment of a De-
puty to the Mailer of the Rolls, which he con- 1
demned. conceiving it would tend to render the
office of Mailer of—the Rolls in a great meafure a
finecu re.
Lord CA s rs. tat &am defended the claufe,obferv-
ing, it would not enable the Mailer of the Rolls to
appoint a Deputy to perform the judicial part of
lus office.—The claufe was then agreed to.
The Houle being refumed, the Report was or-
dered to be received to-morrow.

PAPER DUTY.
After a thort converfation between Lord WPI.
ss sta. on the one fide, who wilbed the Houfe
to refolve itfelf into a Committee upon the Poor
Hpufeholders Relief Bill, and who urged the ne-
ceffity of carrying this Bill into esecuunn before
Eafier for it to have any beneficial effee, in which
he was fupported by Mr. Sheridan, and Mr. Role
on the other, who withed for a Committee of the
whole Houfe upon the Paper Duty Bill, and who
urgcd he fuperior neceffity of providing for the
public fervice, in which he was fupported by Mr.
Johnfon ; the latter at length gained the priority.
and the Houfe rcfolvcd itfelf into a Committee on
the Paper Duty Bill, which was ordered to be re-
ported to-morrow.