Star.
London, England, 1805-06-26 00:00:00

LORD ST. VINCENT.

Admiral MARKHAM fakl, that, as he was not prefect when
the accounts which he had moved for relative to the Navy were
prefented to the Houk, he mould now move that they be printed.
—Ordered.

Admiral MARKHAM obrerved, that, as thefe papers could
not be printed in fulkient time to &teas the motion of the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Jeffery) which flood for Tburfday, he hoped the
Hon. Gentleman would poftpone it till a later day.
Mr. JEFFERY witted as much as polEble to accommodate
the Hon. Gentleman, but as a vent had patted force the papers
were laid upon the table of the Houk, he felt himfelf juftified in
not poltponinst his motion.
Admiral MARKHAM was equally anxious with Hon.
. . the H

Gentleman to have the fabled vase before the public, but there
hirer.. were highly important and neceffary to the difeuffion. A
Noble Lord (Earl St. Vincent)" had been accot..-.1 as an enemy to
'gas country ; and he was himfelf implicated as one of the Lords of
'he Admiralty : it was therefore of great confequence that he
liould have an opportunity of making a complete defence, and he
!mind the ijououtabic Gentleman mold not think of priliwg

Ids motion for that day, u othenvife he thould feel it his duty to
tate the (cafe of the Houle.
Mr. JEFFERY was going to reply, wren be was interrupted
by the SPEAKER, who °braved, that r there was no motion
L before the Houle, it was not regular to promote a difeufflon.
The Hon. Member might either change his notice or not.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER hoped the Hon.
Gentleman would not pre& his motion, as the papers were torpor.
tent, and the Hon. Admiral wished to have them printed.
Mr. JEFFERY pledged bimfelf that the papers did not contain
a Engle point of information that affeetcd his motion; and was
proceeding, when he was again interrupted by the SPEAKER,
and the matter dropped ; fo that Mr. JEFFERY'. motion, as yet,
ftands for Thutfday.

STATIL Or THS ARMY.
Colonel CRAU FU RD was in hopes his motion would have been
difpnfed of before this, hut as the papers were not all printed, and
the Secretary at War had withdrawn one paper prefented on Mon-
day, which was very erroneous, no lets than Ten Tboufand Men
being omitted, he thought it would be expedient to put off his
motion tin Friday, which, after lane converfation, was agreed to.
MAICISIS WILLESLEY.
Mr. PAUL faid, he had already given notice of
his intention to bring forward a motion refpeEting
the conduEt of the Marquis Wellefley. He felt
that he was placed in an important fituation. He
flood forth as the public accufer of a Nobleman, who
polreffed_great influence, and had great connexions
in that Houfe. He confidered himfelf as a new and

a very young Member, but it was a matter of conic,.
lation to him, that the cafe was a very plain and
fimple one, and Rood in no need of ebullience to al=
filt it. The Nabob of Oude was compelled by treaty
to advance a yearly turn of 900,0001. but the Noble
Lord who was the objea of accufation, had difpof-
felled him of his dominions, in defiance of treaty, and

had railed from them a revenue of two millions.—

The prefent cafe was more flagrant than that of Mr.
Railings, who Rood impeached for divelling of
his territories Cheit Syng, the Rajah of Benares.—
The Nabob of Oude had been difpoffefred illegally ;
and he charged upon Lord Wellefley, a violation of
the law, and a breach of the Ad of Parliament

They had been proceeding very properly againfl pub.
lie offenders at home, and it was of infinite import-
ance that offences committed at the dillance of 13000
miles, fhould not go unpunifhcd. When he gave no-
tice of his motion, it was hi, intention to go into the
fubjeft, but be now thought it unneceffary, confi-
d‘ • ig the advanced flate i.t the &lion, and the
prefs of important matter before the Houfe, All he
fhould therefore now do, would be to move for pa-

pers, and leave Gentlemen to make up their minds
before the next Sam of Parliament, when he thould
certainly bring the fuhjea forward. He fhould alfo
derive this advantage, that very Monty the Mar.
quis Wellefley would be in England, and he would
have an. opportunity of viewing his whole conduit in
the bufinefs. After making a few.more obfervations
the Hon. Member concluded by moving for feveral
Papers.
Lord CASTLEREAGH would not refift the
motion for papers, but wilted Gentlemen to keep
their minds perfectly open and free from prepolreffion.
For himfelf, he by no means admitted the charges
againfl the Noble Lord. He would kill make an
obfervation upon one thing which had fallen from
the Hon. Gentleman. He had made it the ground
of a heavy charge againff the Noble Marquis that
he had fent his brother, who was Private Secretary
to the Government, into Oude, to conclude atreaty,
and then gave him a eon:million, appointing him to
fuperintend that Province. The fag was, he was
placed at the head of a commiffion to govern the af-
fairs of that Province, and continued there feveuteen
months, but received no profit or emolument—and
fo far from it, his affairs were materially injured. It
alfo appeared, that he executed his office much to
the fatisfaaion of the Governor General, as well as
to that of the Court of Direaors at home.
Sir WILLIAM BURROUGHS did not think a
motion foe papers fhould be accompanied with re-
fleetions upon the Noble Marquis, and confidered the
appointment of his brother as perfectly legal.
Mr. WINDHAM did not confider the produdion
of papers a matter of indulgence, and thought the
prefent an affair of great magnitude.
Mr. PAUL laid, that the falary of the Hon. Henry
Wellefley, as Private Secretary, was 6,5001. per an-
num, betides the expences of his table.
Mr. WELLESLEY POLE afferted, in the moll
pofitive terms, that Mr. Henry Wellefley had re-
ceived no emolument whatever, except from his lun-
ation as Secretary. The fact was, his expences were
paid upon vouchers by the Government of Bengal—
and he had not converted a Tingle firpence of profit
to himfelf.
Mr. FRANCIS anted if Government were yet in
' poffeffion of any difpatches relative to the war with
Holkar ; or whether the Minifter of the Eaft India
Affairs would be able to bring forward in his budget
a ilatement up to March 1804
Lord CASTLEREAGH laid, that as a packet
of difpatches from the Eaff had been captured by the
French, he was not able to give the Hon. Member
the information he required—probably the docu-
ments relative to the Rate of the Company's finances
in the Earl were in the fame packet. As he had not
feen any fuch llatements, he confequently could not
bring the accounts in the budget up to that period.
Mr. FRANCIS—Then Government is in poiref-
lion of no information but that which they have re-
ceived from the difpatches publifhed by the French ;
—The Hon. Member was proceeding further, when
he was informed by the SPEAKER that there was no
queflion before the Honfe—he therefore fat down
without any further obfervat'on.
LORD MELVILLE

Mr. BOND faid, the motion he had propofed to
fubmit to the Houfe Rood next in rotation, and grew
out of a proceeding which had already been adopted
by the Houle. 'Since the matter Was fuggclied, an
Honourable and Learned Friend of his had given
notice of a motion, the objat of which was to While•
tute the trial by impeachment, in the place of the
mode by Criminal Information, againit Lord Mel-
ville ; it therefore feemed to him proper, that the laft
in point of order thould have the priority in point of
time, and with the concurrence of his Honourable

jPRICE SIX.

. .
and Learned Friend, he would pollpone the former
until the latter was determined.
Ir. LEYCtSTER admitted the propriety of
adopting the arrangement recommended by bit
Right Hon. Friend, becaufe if he (Mr. Leyeetler)
fhould fucceed, there would be no neceflity what-
ever for occupying the time of the Houfe with the
difcullion, which was incidental alone to the Crites.

nal information. Perhaps he fhould render his els-
fervations more intelligible, if he were permitted to
introduce them by reading the terms of the motion;
which the Houfe would be called upon to difpofe of;
And they were there : That this Houfe do proceed
by impeachment againfl Henry Lord Vifeount Mel-
ville, upon the feveral offences (bred in the Reports
made by the Committees, and that the Attorney Ge-
neral be intruded to day all proceedings under the
ordei of the 13th June, directed to him." He thought
the lituation of the Noble Lord peculiarly oppreffive ;
he had been removed from an exalted nation in the

adminiftration of affairs ; he had been rejeited From
the honourable dittinaion he enjoyed as a Pri►y
Councillor of his Sovereign, and now -a criminal pro-
ceeding was to be inftituted againft him to infliet a
fccond punifhment for the fame offence, contrary to
the ellablifhed principles of juftice in this country.—
If, however, this was his opinion, the Houfe had in-
dicated a contrary fentiment, and it was equally his
duty and his pleafure to acquiefce its its decifions.
In the motion he had to fubmi:, he did not mean to

bring in queffirm, therefore, the fitnefs of a Cri-
minal proceeding ; he only wifhed to vary,the mode
in which the proecutlon • -as to be conduCted. If
the Houfe, after a full and fair examination, had de-
termined on the methrid.now direifted, he fhould not
have prefumed again to invite its attention to the
fubjea ; but the truth was, that the ineafure having
been brought on in the shape of an amendment, die
Houk was not fully apprized of the obje4;sms to
which it was liable. He fhould firß aeKrt to the
queftiOn as if it were re: nova; he thunid confider the
difficulties that arofe from the Reps already taken in
the affair. Thus, if it were now for the firft time to
be examined, he fhould fat, that the mode by im-
peachment was preferable to that by criminal infor-
mation, becaufe it was more fitialy conformable to
the eßablifhed ufage of Parliament ; becaufe it was
more confident with the dignity of that Houle, and
with the rank of the petfon charged with the of-
fences ; and Wily, becaufe it led to greater certain-
ty in the refult. Upon looking into former cafes, he
found the ordinary way with rape& to Commoners,
was by criminal information, under the direaion of
his Majetty's Attorney General ; but, on the con-
trary, when a Peer of the realm was implicated, it
was by impeachment. No indußry which he had
employed, could difcover a tingle example of the
former proceeding being applied-to a Peer, except
in the cafe of Lord Halifax. By referring to the
14th volume of the Journals it would be found, that
that Nobleman having been charged with the neglett
of checking the Tellers vouchers, the Hoak resolved
to addrefs her Majetly, that fhe would be pleafed
to order her Attorney General to profecute that
Nobleman. On the t Bth of November, page 428 of
the fame volume. there appeared the following en-
try :—" In obedience to the orders of the Houfe, I
certify, that the objeaion taken by the Defendant's
Connie', is not tranfmitted in due form." The pro-
ceedings then were had, but there was not an in-
dance fupplied by the files of the Exchequer to.fup-
port them. Perhaps the connexion Lord Halifax
had with that Court, might occafion a deviation
from the uniform' pm/lice. Then abftraaing this
infulated cafe, there was no precedent for inch a
mode as was now dire led by the Houle ; and the
true queltion was, if a bad example once given were
to be followed, or if a long catalogue of precedents
were to be refperded. What had been fo long re-
garded, efpecially in criminal cafes, it would be
extremely dangerous to abandon. Although a Peer
might be proceeded againft at common law in cer-
tain cafes, and tried and convieted by perfons not
his Peers, yet it was more conformable to the fpirit
of the Britifh Conflitution, that by his Peers alone
his guilt or innocence fhould be ellablifhed. This
then being the repeated, and, with one exception,
the invaried ufage of Parliament, no alteration
fhould be permitted, unlefs it were jußified by
Come ftrong and peculiar circumßances. This was
an affair c: great magnitude and importance, not
only to the individual principally concerned, but to
the public, who looked with unidual interell and with
fingular curiofity to the proceedings. It was not
furprifing that an enquiring fpirit was raifed—that
an anxious feeling was excited—when the elevated
rank of the party accufed: was contemplated—when
diffinguilied abilities were confidered; and wl a
the elfeutial fervices he h.ti rendered to the S.sue
were recolleited. In this fituation, and poffeffing
thofe eminent qualities, all would acknowledge that
he was at lead entitled to every privilege incident
to his perfonal rank in the State, on an occafion of
this ferious nature. In the next place, he fhould
contend that more fubdantial juffice was to be at-
tained by the form of profecntion he now recom-
mended—a matter of much more weight in the
kale than any otlier corifirlaation whatever. He
would admit that if he had i fait depending, in
which his property, his reputation, his life, were de-
pendent on the refult, them was no Court to which
he would more fatitlaftorily reign his fate than to
that juiddietion exercifed by the Learned Judges of
the King's Bench; yet it mutt be confelfed, that in
fomc cafes, dither:hies attended the adminillration of
jultice tmder all our judicial eltablithments. There
is a hots adherence to forms, which, however con-
ducive to the :iberty of the Inbjeft, muff, on occa-
Irons of titis for!, be extremely embart ailing, and
which migla ultimately defeat the end it was imme-
diately intended to feetne. If the tingle cbjea were
to enquire how far Lord Melville was concerned with
Mt. Ts otter in the illegal emoluments which had
been aliedged, much intricacy might arife, and the
invettigation of minute flans and insulated dates

World he rendered impolllble, and yet in the
cation of the recto of to,osol. the criminality would
woolly depen i upon the particular rime, beceufe die
Bata% would be violated or rerpeeted, according to
the period when fuch a tranfaction occurred. The
Int tin fubjeft of enquiry would be if Lord Melville
did or did not pal ticipate in the profits acquired by
Mr. Trot er ? and yet if the precise form and words
of the charge did not meet this queflion, his guilt
might be of the deepell dye, and he woad escape
with impunity. Did Gen; lemon rett-et on the pro.
diginus c titplication of matters or account in this
affair, and on the necellity of investigating thefe with
all the delay and impediment, incident to a court of
jullice ? Mr. Trotter, fin filch a purpofe, ought to
be called and recalled, examined and re-examined,
day alter day, and week after week, and how would
it be praCticable to purlite this lubjeet in the contraCt-
ed period of twelve or fourteen hours, to which loch
a proceeding is almuft necefferily reftrieted ? By the
impeachment, length of time became of nn moment,
and the legal formalities would neither interrupt the
Court, nor (Millet the defigns of juflice. If the of-
fence refpeCting the item of to,ccel. be no crime at
common law, it might be rendered fuels under the
fandKon of a Parliamentary Impeachment. In this
way the wound on public right might be prcbed to
the bottom ; and although this mode was more pre
judicial to Lord Melville, yet it would be injurious
only when a facriace was required to justice ; when
a great criminal was to be amenable to the infulted
laws of his country. By thefe means alone the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
would be attained. Another cbjeCtion arofe from 1
the prejudices that were telt, from the perilous that
were indulged regarding that Nobleman. It was
faid, the public had been deprived of thonfends, nay,
of millions, by the peculatiens of Mr. Trotter, and
his principal ; the heavy burthens on the people were
attributed to this caufe, and the acidreffes with which
the table of the Houfe was loaded, proved the pre-
valence of thefe opinions. The perfors who were
thus biaffed were to be the judges of the Noble Lord;
be did not intend any difrelpeet to the juries of the
metropolis, but it was to be confeffed they were,
tradefinen and fhnpkeepers, who were net competent
to decide en criminal cafes conne&ed with the great
pnliticnl interefts of-the empire. He fhould now ad-
vert to the salt particular, viz. on the propriety vf
refcinding the refolutions of the Houle. About 450
or afro Members had voted on the queflion ; the
principal enquiry was not which was the better mode,
but whether it were right or wrong to profecure ?
Were Gentlemen, he would ate, direeting their at-
tention to the preferable method exclurively, or did
they know the only precedent was that of Lord Ha-
lifrx ? It might be laid, " Why did you vote againfl
the Inieeachreent ?" No doubt this was momen-
tum ad ..'weire,n, but it was leis a matter of personal
delicacy than of public dirty, and it was more con-
fident with the dignity of the Houfe to correa an
error than to perlevere in it. He had now per-
formed the talk impaled upon h:m ; he had no ac.
queiritanee with Lord Melville ; he had no private
inter ell in the event ; he only wifhed -that fubitantial
juitice might be done, and that the guilt or inno•
ce nee of Lord Melville might be impartially exa-
mined and faithfully determined.—Mr.Leyceller then
concluded with the motion hated in the exordium.
Sir It. BUXTON role to fecund the motion. He
lamented that the impeachment was not ref-lilted to
in the first instance (1 try of Bear! Hear! hang_! front
the oppofition Emthes) ; he meant inttead of the origi-
nal relithrtions. In there latl he concurred, becaufe
he thought they infliele.l a proper piinithment on
Lord Melville : after that, on the fame ground, he
voted for the civil prolecmion. This latter step Wits
retraced, and refeinding the direelion to the Atterney
General was no more inconlident than withdrawing
the civil proceeding. Mr. juaice Blackstone had
laid, that in criminal cafes a Nobleman Ihruild be tried
by his Peers ; and the reafon he ailigned was, becaufe
the people Mere not impartial judges; it was, he
added, one of the great judicial regulations of Magna
Charta. On there arguments he fhould fuppnrt the
motion of his Honourable Friend.
When the queflion had been put by the Chair.
Mr. BOND rote—" Whatever ingeninus reafon-
ing may have been employed by my Learned and
Hon. Friend, there is one Hid ground on which I
May repofe ; I mean the grave determination of this
Houle. I can, Sir, give full credit to my Honourable
Friend for the correetnefs of his motives; no man has
purer intentions, no man more equitable defigns; but
while I reflect on the views by which he is actuated,
I cannot avoid being artonithed at the opinion enter-
tained by his honourable mind on the prefent fubjeet.
It is quite apparent, from the circumltances under
which the late motion was refilled, that my Hon.
Friend, fupported as he was, had it in his power to
have carried the meafure of the impeachment; it is,
therefore, molt extraordinary that he fbonld have
neglected that favourable opportunity, and fhould
now deli e to lubveit the folemn decifion of the
Houle, alter a full conlideration of the merits of
Lou question. I certainly did not make the propori-i
tires which was adopted by the Houle, without an at-
tentive elimination of the matter before me ; andl
after I bed affuluoully fcrotinized into the argetnentsl
on either hand, I deemed the criminal prosecution
the molt expedient in this peculiar cafe. Since the inc.
/rent when I intimated my fentiments to the Hour:,
I have not charged my opinion ; whatever lights I
could derive from converfation, whatever affiltance I
could receive from a careful review of the fubjea,
have all conduced to emit nt my mind in the convic-
tion it at tirtt received ; yet whatever additional
firength my early imprefliens may have received, I
can fnlemnly Acme the Houle, that if the motion for
the impeachment had been carried, I would have fup-
ported, in the fequel, that mode of trial, and would
not have oberuded on the Houle my preprifeftionr,
however confident I might have been of their accuracy.
My refine!" for the Kink would have reftrieted my
.aid 1 flu:old have humbly acquiefced in its
determination.
I will now aflign my reafons for deeming the
proc-e:ding by criminal information molt eligible.
Parliament had complete authority to proceed in
either ef Ode forms ; there was nothing in the
principles of the common law of the land to oppofe
its eldtive pow er in this particular ; yet I Jo admit to
Learned Friend, that in the refearch I have made,
(-:t find any instance of retorting to the method
lined, except in the cafe of Lord Halifax.

Thus far the argument of my Honourable Friend
Rands upon a folid foundation. But, Sir, was there,
in that., inflance, any breach of ptivile?e even al-
ledged4 The Noble Lend, inftead of contending for
any Rich rights, dillindly laid he had•no privilege,
and infifted on no privilege of peerage as applicable
to his fituation at that time. Although the decifion
proceeded in that cafe on the mere form, as has been
juftly Rated by my Learned Friend, yet the Court
advanced as in a regular progrefi of legal jurifdic-
tion ; and the precedent is not the lets to be regarded
on aconunt of its confiflency with there eflablifliel
formalities. Then, Sir, there is nothing proved to
be irregular or uncontlitutional in this mode; the pre-
vailing sufage, it is tine, is agahla it; but there is not
a tingle example to be produced, by which it is (hewn
to he in any one tepee diforderly.
" The ground on which I maintain the fitnefs of
the criminal information by his Majeßy's Attorney-
General may be briefly explained. I prefer it, be-
caufe I approve a prompt, vigorous, and efficacious
proceeding in a court of law, to an expedient poffef-
fing none of thee important recommendations. I
confider the ordinary forms of legal enquiry in all
cafes eligible where the jury is competent to decide
on the condo& of the party; and alone where it is
not within the grafp of their comprehenfion, can 1
deem an impeachment defirable. In the latter cafe,
various miles of delay are rapidly fucceeding
each other; they daily rife into notice and °Miro&
the coorfe of *lattice. In the forms on which the
Houk has deci.ted, it will not be poflible, perhaps,
to accelerate the trial before the fall of the year,
but the proceeding by impeachment would be much
later. After it thould he commenced in this way,
doubts will arife, very naturally, if all public bufinefs
he to be furpended for this tingle objed, and the de-
triment from perfeverance in it may, 'ander many
prob title fituations and circtimltances, be incalculable.
My Hon. Friend has commented on the inconveniH
ence which arites from the general ferment this boar-
nets has excited. If this he injut lout, the fooner the
decition is made, the earlier will the public mind be
tranquillized ; and this, with him, therefore, will be
an argument for avoiding the orocraltination incident
to impeachment. If the (prelim before the Court
were, the political conflitution of Government; the
relation of our foreign potTefilims to the parent flak,
with which the expedience of peace and war, of tight
and liberty, tyranny and oppreflion might be blended,
I would not recommend the trial by jury; but none
of thole enquiries were necelfarily conneaed with this
affair; no matters of a nature In complicated would
be fubjed to invelligation. My Hon. Friend (aid, it
I would be unavoidable to examine the Rate of Mr.
ITrotter's accounts, and that filch a review wool • :ad
to great intricacy. to which a Jury would be incom-
petent. How is this required ? The doubt is not as to
the quantum purloined from the ',girlie pule, hot on
the ad of put ; h is not a calculation of pounds,
fhillings and pence, but a determination on the fad
'of ctiminality. What is the nature of the offence
charged ? It is the milapplica lion ot the public money.
Is this a rotation on the Rights of Nations, on lubjeds
of political difquifition, which legiflators ale to de-1
cide ? or is it a matter of fad which a few re.ifortable
men, in the exercife of a plain and found undo-Rand-I
iag, can del ermine ? But my Hon. Friend fays, a Jury
is compofed of a few vulgar fhookeepers. Whatever
I may he my refired for this defcription of perfons, to
`them the refult will not be committed ; it will not be
a common ti ial, it will he a trial at bar, on the Ate
of which a fpecial Jury will he called upon to decide. i
'lt will be conduded before four molt learned Judges,
[one of whom is a Peer of Parliament, with a mind
as capable of forming a corred opinion on the great
maxims of political philolophy, as any member of
'the hereditary knee. Such is the atliflance to be
given on the contirodion of the laws; and the mat-
ters of fad arifing on the tetlimnny will be afcer-
tained, nor by a band of fhookeepers, but by a jury
compoted of refpeftable Gentlemen of the county.
I &odd be glad to knt,w, while we airtime a fort of
legiflative importance, what is the great difference
between thee country Gentlemen, and the Honour-
able Members who compote this branch of the Con-
Ititution, and why they are not as competent as the
individuals of this Hoole to decide in filch cafes,when
empanelled for the maintenance of public law ?
Whatever fentiments others may entertain, for my
part, Sir, I flioold confider it a libel upon the judi-
cature of this country, if it were affta led, that judges
filch as thefe, not mote diflinguifired for their erudi-
tion than for their integrity, were caroled to partia-
lity by the clamour of popular opinion. This tri-
bunal then, I fay, where the four Judges of the
higheft Court of Law prefide, is fully adequate to
the duty you aflign it, and is in its conftrndion as
pure, complete, and perfect, as any thing in the hif-
tory of national jorifprudence.
" My Hon. Friend is apprehenfive of Tome em-
barraffment, becaufe the dates may not be precifely
alcertained with regard to the item of to,ooct. Will
my Friend fay, that, having received an emolument,
the Judges arc not competent to fay if it be illegal
under the liatnte ? lam fore be will not think this
a fit doubt to rare before the Noble and Learned

Perfons, whore province it will he to decide on the
application of the law to the faa. in evidence: If
Lord Melville thould he pronounced guilty, which [
ardiatly hope will net be his fate, which I can only
with to he his tate for the great ptn•pofes or public
jultice, I fay, if cunvi3ion iollow enquiry, the pu
nithment to be inflioe:l will be de•errnined before the

Noble judge who occufies a teat in the councils of
the land, who i, able to admit, in favour of the de-
linquent, every circumflance in mitigation, and who '
will allow every apology that is due to his political
fituation and charaeler, to his peculiar temptations,
or difficulties as a public Office► of the State. Iwill not
fay that the former merits of Lord Melville, what-
ever they may be, will he fit confiderations on which
the proportion of fight ing fhould depend, but every
matter of excufe will he billy and fully admitted.—
Such is the form of pia' I have recommended, and
fuch are the grounds on which I conceive the wifdom
of filch a meafure is to be fitpported. On fume ac-
' counts, 1 confider it the molt lenient proceeding. I
do not meals to fay by this expreflion, that if this No-
bleman is guilty, he is more likely to efcape with im-
punity, but I contend, that if innocent, nothing can
be more oppreffire and harafling than the proceeding
by impeachment ; and the humane principles of Bri-
tifh law have taught me to fuppofe every man inno-
cent until he is proved to be guilty. It is a fallacy to
.affirm that the plan adopted by the houfe is a breach

•
of the Conflitutirm. Eiery Peer is rubjetied to trial
by the common law for mifdemeanors. The preci-
pitate application of precedents often leads to abfurd
and contradidory conclutions. The true way of
judging is not always by general principlerr, but by
the circomliances of the par tionlar cafe, and upon its
own dinina and independent merits it 'horrid nand
or fall. Here then we have no pofitive course wailing
law, and the peculiar meri:s all direa the proceed.
ing now faationed by the Houfe. It was not deter-
mined by a few members, but at the (Olen meeting
within the recolleCtion of any one prefent, and after
a notice of four•days. I befeech the Houfe then
to regard its own dignity and charaeter, and not to
admit the people of England for a moment to fop-
pofe
that a decifion fo deliberately formed, and lo
powerfully fupported, is within the ability of any in-
dividual to (obvert."
Mr. LEICESTER and Mr. BOND feverally ex-
plained.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL faid, he had paid
every attention to the fpeech of his Right Honour-
able Friend who (poke fait, and could not avoid
exprefling his own aftonifhment, haw his Learned
Friend's accurate mind could be brought to form its
concluflons upon the ground he had Hated. He
Should himfelf fupport the motion of his other Ho-
nmtrable Friend, and Shortly (late the grounds on
which he Should give his vote. In this cafe three
modes of proceeding had been proposed to the
Houle ; &It, the impeachment of Lord Melville ;
fecondiy, civil procefs at law ; and thirdly, criminal
information ; and as far as the fenfe of the great
majority of the Houfe could be collerled, upon the
general ground, it was decidedly in favour of the
mode now propoled, and which was the true and
conilitutional mode of proceeding. With rape& to
the nature of the charg• agi.init the Noble Lord, his
Right Honourable Friend had allied, would the
Houfe argue againft an Al of Parliament; or would
the competence of the Court of King's Bench be
queitioned to try the Noble Lord? He, for his own
part, believed it would not be argued, that taking
the money out of the Bank of England, and lodging
it in a private Bank, for naval purpofes, was a breach
of the Aril of l'..tliament ; but there could be no
doubt, and no man ever urged the contrary, that if
the money had been fo taken out, and lodged for
purpofes not naval. that it was a breach of the Al
of Parliament. His Right Honourable Friend faid,
1:1C Court of King's Bench coil:41 find no diffiCtilty
in deciding as to the legality or illegality of the con-
do& of Lnrd Melville, in this cafe. on account of
n•lt being able to afcertain the precife time at which
the to,oool. was In taken and appropriated, as it was
don: clearly fuhf:rient to the vote of the Hdtife of
Commonc, precluding filch an ; this he would
not now difinue. but he thould be decidedly againil
proceediog criminally againtl the Noble Lord on that
arc:mnt, either by imneachment before the Lords,'
Or profectition in a Criminal C:urt, as he conlidered
the Noble Lord already punifhed by the Vote of Cen-
lure paired by that Honfe, and the confcquences to-
wards him which followed that vote. Not wifhing
•o trouble the Houfe further on this part of the fun-
jet% he proceeded to argue, that the declared fenfe
of a decided majority of the Houle was in favour oil
proceeding by impeachment, and therefore the Ho-
nourable Member opponte (Mr. Whitbread), and
t 95 who voted with him for proceeding by impeach-
ment, were, in continency, bound to fupport this
ni!tht, the motion of his Honourable and Learned
Friend. Of the 258, who, nn a fubfequent night,
voted for the criminal proceeding, 595 were decidedly
in favour of impeachment; Sio that although the Houle
never had the: queflion fairly before it at any one
time, as to which of the two modes thould be adopt-
cL!, yet the declared fenfe of the majority was obvi-
oufly in favour of impeachment. He was ready to
admit that the authori:y of the Houfe bore direftly
for criminal profecution, yet, upon the molt mature
confederation he cuuld give the queftion, he thought
with the 595 who voted for proceeding by impeach-
ment, as the mode bell calculated to attain the ends
of titbit-anti:A jutlice—to clear the Noble Lord, if in•
nocent—to convia and punifh him. If guilty. kle
was ready to admit that the forms of the Houfe
flood at prefent in the way of changing the mode
of proceeding, and agreed with his Riz,ht Honour-
able Friend that the Houfe, by fo (Pees* rescinding
own resolution, might appear to vaciilate in its
Councils ; but notwithflanding the fullnefs of the
IHoof when that refolution was palled, he had, he
thought, clearly (hewn that proceeding by impeach.
ment was the decided fenfe of a majority. He was
ready to admit, as his Right Honoarable Friend
slated, that these were many pinions out of doors
who would be ready cm:ugh to make malicious re-
prefentations of any vote to which the Houle might
come, for 'has rescinding its own proceedings ;
but in doing what was now proposed, the Houle
would only get rid of a mere point of form, and
come to the adoption of that which was the true fettle
of the Houfe.

Mr. BANKES laid, that before he fhould come to
difcufs the queition et Impeachment, he fhould Frii
fubmit to the Chair filch ideas as occurred to him or,
the point of proceeding. and as to At !tether the lionfe
was now in the proper lire. He always under-flood
it a matter of Parli..mentary order, that two difre-
rent proceedings on the cone Inhje,q, ard eu2.trat y to
each other, could DOC he entertained at the fame time.
This he always underfloo:l to he the zetic::il rule ;
and therefore he thought, in the present cafe, the
Honk could not come u) the adoption cf a new pro.
ceeding, nor entertain a rp:efli•nt upon it, until it lrad
fully difpofed of the Fall. On a toll view of the
queflion, in one of the ful!eft affemblies of Men.bers
that had ever met within thole walls, and one of the
fulled difcuftions that ever took place, the Houle had
decided to fofpend a civil profeention, in order to
adopt a criminal one ; and now it was propcfed to
proceed by Impeachment, contrary to In recent and
folemn a decifion. He berled, therefore, to appeal
to the Chair, whether it was conflflent with Parlia-
mentary triage to entertain at the fame time two op-
polite proceedings on the c.orne iobjea
The SPEAKER aufwered, that in the manner this
queition came before the Ilcufe, it was of two parts.
The Houle had already come to a vote upon the
fubjee, and the propofition now was to refcind that
j vote. In this, as in all other complicated queltions,
the Houfe itfeif mutt decide the difliculty, and there-
fore it was his duty to put the vettion in the way in
[ which it was propofed.
Mr. DAN KES relinnede and declared his own riri•

nion; founded upon akl the eerier-inlet and woe,
tion of which he was matter, that two oiff:rere ~,
minal proceedings *gond the fate raiheduel, nee
one end the fame febjeet, could nor, coetillently wie,
legal juflice, or Pelliernentary order, be carried ...-.
at the fame time. The Houfe had ;diesels., after te.,.,
moll folemn deliberation, and Mien dilcafion, in ere
of the fullell meetings ever witnetled, come to a fn.
lemn decifion upon this fubjea, arid now, upnn tie
fhort notice ot twenty-four hours, or rather forpriz. ,
the Houfe was called upnn to refcind that decilire,
and to adopt the mode of proceeding which it had
already rejected. He could not have conceived it
poilible, that the Hon, a id Learned Gentleman wies
brought forward this motion, could reconcile to his
own honourable feeling Nth a proceeding as, afor
what had already paired, at this lace perior of f!.,j
feffion, and after half the Members had left town ,
their private concerns, to bring forward a ttifitirqi „!
this nature at twenty-four hours notice. If die fluid
could Infer itfelf to be induced to adopt fuch a IC
tion, he fhould not he at all furerized if, in tweity.
four hours more, it fhould be again called on to re •
fcind that motion alto, and to abandon the proceed=
ings againft the Noble Lord altogether. He had un-
derflood, from rumours out of doors, and fome hints
dropped within, that fame attempt would be made,
from another Houk of Parliament, to revive the pro-
ceedings againft the Noble Lord; and that !time.
thing
in the nature of a conference would be folitited
with
i that Houfe, touching•fome of the hereditary
privileges of the Peerage being invented in 4„ ,e„.
ceedings of the Houfe againff Lord Melville. Bait
without any previous intimation of any ground what.
ever, fare the [bon intimation yederday, for the Houfe
i to be called upon to refcind its folemn decifion, found.
ed upon fo many fucceffive diftuflions on the conduit
of the noble Lurd,was the mot indecent attempt he had
ever heard of. What, he would afk, would the pea
ple of England fay of fuch a proceeding, if theHoufe
IShould be induced to adopt it ? What fast of refpete
or estimation would the people of England attach to
a Parliament thus wavering and capricious in its de-
cisions? What opinion would the world form of its
wifdom ? Betides, it behoned.the Houfe to look with
a jealous eye to the quarter whence the propofal
came, and lee how far the pure ends of Mice were
aetually the motives of thole who urged it forward..
The Honourable and Learned Member who fpolce
lag, and was now fn warm an advocate for impeach-
ment, had evor until now fpoke and voted againft
any ref elution the finufe had adopted, either forthe
cenfnre or criminatinn of the Noble Lord, and lied
this night juilitied his avertion both to impeachment
end criminal procels, upon the ground that the =-
fere of the Honk WAS fufficient punifhment. But did
nothing new again ft the Noble Lord come out in the
fobfequent proceedings ? Were there nn new feat
brought to iigie in evidence before the Selett Com-
roittce ! Did no new instances of criminality and ag-
gravation come out even in that Houfe ? Let the
Houle look a little at the conduct of the Honnnrable
Gentleman who was this nit ht fo urgent for im-
peachment. Did not he, and thofewho aced with
him, uniformly oppofe every propofal from the be-
einnine, for enquiry into the milapplication of pub.
lie money, and the criminal conduet of the Noble
Lord ? Did they then pmpofe impeachment for the
pure ends of fubliantial judice ? Did they not fare
the tire refolution of the Houfe on this fohite was
quite enough ? and did they not a&rt that it was
oniutt and cruel to proceed further 1 The cafe Amid
jug the lame, and what Paid they now? Why, that
criminal prosecution was not the way to obtain fub•
Rant; .1 justice, arid that,.by impeachment, the guilt of
the Noble Lord, if Cupp°, fed, would be more amply.
punifhed. But when he refleeted on theprinciples of
action which had heretofore guided 'the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman on this fuhjeet, he was not clifpo.
fed to quit his path to follow him into new and Mu'.
eete ways. He had ne with to violate the privileges
of the Peerage, but hews. nnC afraid of any of thole
impediments to junice in the Conn of King's Bench,
that were not likely to nem bef we the higher tribu-
nal. He had no fault to And with the mode of ad-
mininet ing criminal jufike in the Courts of this coun-
try, and if the Noble Lord (horrid be acquitted by a
Jury in his Majefty's Conn of King's Bench, his for-
mer friends and acquaintance might as fairly confi-
der his cbaratter vindicated and his innocence proved
as if his acquittal Should take place before the Houle
of Lords. But as .to the proceeding by impeach-
ment, the only instance at which the Houk was en-
abled to look within its own time (the trial of Mr-
Haftings) prefented no very favourable espefeetioa
that loch a mode was bellealculated to promote fpee-
dy and cur tain j uflice, or encourage him to prefer that
mode of proceeding while there was another tribunal
in the country which prefented, in his mind, a more
fair and effeetual road to juflice. Upon the journals
of Parliament there was but the one folitery cafe in
%sleet) impeachment had been followed up to any
ere:Cited elite : in every other cafe, Parliament had
Wier! on this head, and abandoned the proceedings
from fame caufe or other. It was laid again* the
trial by jury, that popular prejudices had been es-
cited by clamour without doors ; he admitted, and
I lamented the feet ; but upon Inch lubjeas populer
I clernoer was ten clofely ennneeted with the liberty
!of the country to be effeetually retrained. bed
Melville, however, was not the only delinquent ex.
I pnfed te fedi a misfortune ; and it fhou!d he rearm-
Iberet!, Colt if he was open to fucb inconvenience,
he had tee valuable privilege of chalteneing the
pantie', which every prilener enjoys upon his trial ;
or of putting off that trial on account ot the termer:
exiting in the public mind, as has happened in a
thonfand instances, upon all trials where challenges
are made against Jurors, either as fupp tied to he
favourable for the prifoner, or who may have utter•
ed opinions unfavourable to hint- In the ether core,
thrift perlms who are the friends and intimates of
Lord Melville, may be the peolons to tit in judgment
upon him ; while his peliticei enemies, if any loch
he had, cannot be prevented from delivering their
verdicts againe him, with, tit any power of challenge
on either tide, and therefore he thought the proceed-
ing in the King's Bench the ninft likely to lead to
fpeedy and impartial juftice. But what opinion could
the Honk form of the mi 'tires and prieciples of thole
oho Hi vote against impeachmenti then againit
preceedine. by criminal prolecution, and new again
come forward, and itrenuoully cry out fit impeach-
ment 1 Would the Houfe tuppofe they were ateated
by any with for jultice, or that they had any other
, motive than, funteliou or other, to attain their er

rhith._ny L 4
do n
now a