Star.
London, England, 1813-03-10 00:00:00

CATHOLICS.

Lord ELDON presented a Petition Iron the cites
of London and Westminster, signed by sixty thaw
sand eight hundred persons, against the Catholic claims.
Lord GREY expressed some doubts respecting the
manner in which the. petition had been brouAllt about,"
and the signatures obtained. He by no niealis dis.'
puted the right of the petitioners to come to Parlia-
ment as they had done, but he did thiik that more
weight and consiOeration would have been dini to the
prayer of the petition, ii it had proceeded from a pub.
lie meeting, at which the arguments on both sides
might have been fairly and openly discussed, and
the persons subscribing thereby made better acquain-
ted with the subject than they could be by the mode
adopted.
Lord ELDON observed, that he could not con-
ceive any method more likely to obtain the clear, dis-
passionate, and proper concurrence of the people to a
public measure, than that which. had been chosen oa
the present occasion. Notice had been sent by the
Ministers and Churchwardens of the several parishes,
with a copy of the petition, requiring -those who apii
proved of it, to sign the same in the Vestry. The pe-
tition, therefore, could not be said to be carried t 3
those who v. ere to sign it, but those who approved of
it; carried their own voluntary signatures.
Lord MELVlLLE.presented a petition from the
Presbytors of Edinburgh against the propbsed repeal
of the Catholic Restrictions. 'He was not suit that
the form of the petition, signed as it was, according
to the custom of that Society, by their Moderator*
was consonant to the usage of.P.irlia:nent. Neither
was he prepared to go to the full length of sappor.
ting the object of the petitioners themselves. He sub.
mitted, however, that it should hit laid upon the table.
Earl GREY was of opinion that the petition could
not in such a form be received, notwithstanding do •
high character cf the individual (Sir H. Monctiede),
whose sor,nature as Moderator it bole. • •
Lent 1-10 L LA ND argued on the same side, and'
though: a precedent was necessary. It was in his
recollection, that a rtition of a similar descriptive
was rejected in the last Session.
_ _

After some observations from the Loan CHANCEL.
Lon, Lard ELLENBOROUGH, and the Duke of ATHOL,
it was agreed thcf the question 'of the propriety of re-
ceiving the petition should Le deferred tilVritursday
next—Their Lordships then adjourned till 6 quarter
before eleven o'clock to-morrow (this day), when the
House will proceed to Vs'estminsier Abbey, to bear
Divine Service, agreeably to the order fur the obser•
vance of the Geaeral Fast.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR obtained leave tor the Chnittlittee txt
the Bristol Vernon Petition to a liana over the Fast Day.
Lord CLATE rCporttcl from the Committee appointed to try
the merits of the Peiition, complaining of an undue rezur.i roe
I regony, that t!e sitting Members were duly elected, an I that
the Petition was not fricolou• or vexatious.

Lord CLIVL also prssent.d a bippirnientriry Report from the
said Committee, stating, that T! miss Cogh:11, a cur, ot tre-
gony, had endeavoured to proeute the return of two Membenl
in violation of the existing Statutes.
The two Reports were ordered to be la'd on the table.
Mr. SI lAW presented a Petition from the Royal Canal Com-
pany, in k ; and also a Peti•ion from the C;roeers of Dulihn,
praying to he allowed to sell small quantities ot Spirits.--Ordered
to lie on the taiLle.

Mr. Johnson, from the office of Chief Secretary for Ireland,
presented the Third Part of the Eleventh Report of the Commis.
•
sioners of Inquiry, in Ireland.—Ordered to be printed.
On the motion of Mr. Alderman A I KIWIS, Daniel Luce, the
person committed for prevarication be:o. e the Weymouth Elec-
tion Committee, was ordered to be brought to the Bar ou Thurs-
day, and to be discharged.
It was ordered that, at its rising, the House should adjourn to
Thursday.
Mr. Buller, the Clerk of the Pricy Council, presented certain
Reports relative to Eton Colleie —Ordered to lie on the table.
On the motion of Sir F. EL) ADET 1., it Wki oreered, that all .'
Members who might attend the "..!onunittee on the Covent-garden
liill should have voices.

Lord MILTON presented a Petition from Bradford, in York-
shire, against the Catholic Cia:ms.—Ordtred to lie on the utile.
'1 he Report of the Liverpool Pocks Bill went through a Com-
mittee of the whole House, the Report of which was ordered to
be received on )'hors

Mr. LUSHINO CON brought up the Reports of the English
and Scotch Local Militia Bills: they wt re severally agreed to, awl
the Bills were ordered to be read a third time tl.l I hursday.
Mr. LUaHING CON also brought up the Report of the Com-
mittee on the Expiring Laws.—Agreed to; and Bills ordered
accordingly.

Lord CASTI.EREAGH presented some rapers, by order of
his Royal Highness ti'e Prince Regent.
ILCHESTER GAOL.
Mr. DICKENSON called the recollection of the
House to the Petition that had been presented List
Session by an Hon. Baronet, from certain persons •
confined in the gaol of I;ci►ester, for riotous conduct
at the Bath Election, complaining of improper treat.
ment, and to the circumstance of the toast which had
been exhibited by the Him. It:►ronet on that occasion.
He wished to ask, it it was the Hon. Baronet's inten-
tion to institute any proceeding on that Petition, and
it so, when?

Sir F. BURDETT replied, that the main griev.
ance of which the petitioners complained had bet%
removed. His time was at proem su completely
Occupied by his attendance en :n Election Cum-

r

.

.littee, that he was finable to say immediately %vitt-
,h2r or not be should propose any proceeding founded
'.on the Peti• ion alluded to. -
Mr. DICKINSON wished to know whether the
lion. Baronet, at any period prior to his present an-1
'Petition,
had investigated the allega,pions of the
'Petition, with a view to ascertain their truth or false-
hood ?
Sir F. BURDETT said; that as he had been able
!Ito, inquire into those allegations, he had reason to be-

teve they-were true.
4 Mr. DICKENSON inquired, whether or not the
'loaf exhibited by the Hon. Baronet last Session, had
'been brought from the gaol of Ilchester ?
Sir E. BURDETT allowed that it had not been
:brought from Jlchester—but from Bath.
SIR STAPLETON COTTON.
Sir STAPLETON COTTON (dressed in full regimen-
-Itals, with the ribband of the Order of the Bath) hay-
ing previously taken the oaths and his scat,
i The SPEAKER rose and addressed him in a
-speech of the following purport :
~ Lieutenant-General Sir Stapleton Cotton—ln
'the interval between the active services of war, the
1.
isproper sphere of your duty is within these walls.—
, This House hails with pride and pleasure your re-
-,' torn to it, bringing with You fresh marks of the
Royal favour, the just reward of your long-tried and
eminent services (hear, hear.)
" Descended from a long line of ancestors whose
; names have been recorded with honour in the ear-
liest pages of our history, and who have been uni-
formly characterised by those qualities of prudence,
~ of generosity, and of courage, which laid the founda-
-1 tion of English greatness, your raee has afforded
1 many splendid models of that worth and that valour
~ which dignify the Gentleman of England—always
4.,prompt to discharge the duties of civil life, and never
I, slow to take up arms in the cause of his country.—
• (Hear, hear.)
" Such, in an eminent degree, were the qualities
of him from whom you derive your immediate here-
ditary honours—endeared to his country by the
highest public virtue—not unknown to many who
are here present—and remembered by myself perso-
, pally with sentiments of the deepest respect and es-
teem—(Hear, hear!)
4, W lien in your early years the flame of war burst
}
forth throughout Europe, you evinced a spirit con-
genial with the times, and your military ardour ur-
i ged you to endure the toils and perils of your pro-
fession in distant chines. Trained in the same camps,
and animated by the same enthusiastic love of glory
• as that great Captain who commands the British ar-
' mies in the Psionsula, and who has filled the world
with his renown, you have pursued his career, and
• yon have shared his triumphs—(Hear, hear, hear.)—
, Renouncing the charms of ease which awaited you at
the seat of your forefathers, you followed to'the ten-
ted fields of Portugal and Spain ; and having esca-
,i ped the harvest of our thanks for your gallantry and
eminent services at Talavera, you now stand hete
crowned with the never-fading laurels of Salamanca.
(Hear, hear, hear.) Your overthrow of a part of the
enemy's force, at an early period of that memorable
-.' day, laid open the road to victory ; and your perse-
verance completed the triumph which your valour
bad commenced—( Hear, hear, hear.)
i 44 These heroic exploits have again entitled yon to
the public thanks of Parliament; and I now, in the
name and by command of the Commons of the Uni-
ted Empire of Great Britain and Ireland in Parlia-
i ment assembled, deliver to you their unanimous
thanks, for your distinguished exertions in the battle
on the plains of Salamanca, on the 22d of July last,
which terminated in a glorious and decisive victory.
1,. (Hear, hear, hear.)
I Sir STA PLETON COTTON's reply was to the
' following effect :
" Mr. Speaks r—l am unable to expresehow much
I feel honoured by the approbation of this House.—
I am indebted for it to the bravery and discipline of
the troops which I had the good fortune to com-
mand.
my King and Country, I will, however, yield to no
t man ; and my feeble efforts shall ever be exerted to
I render me worthy of the high honour that has just
1 . been conferred upon. me."— ( Hear, hear, hear.)
1 On the motion of Lord CASTLEREAGH, the address
I of the Speaker to Sir Stapleton Cotton was ordered
: to be entered on the Journals of the House.
' ARMY ESTIMATES.
-, Mr..LUSHINGTON brought up the Report of
- the Committee of Supply.
p Mr. CR EEVEY intimated his intention, in con-
' sequence of the important business which stood for
that night, to postpone until that day week his mo-
tion relative to the second Paymaster of the Forces
. and his deputy.
The carious Resolutions were then agreed to, sub
1 silentio ; with the exception of that for granting for
Barracks 4460,587. (is. 4d. ; which being read,
Ur. FREEMANTLE drew the attention of the
.i House to the item in this grant of £125,000 for new
Barracks in Ireland, respecting which no information
whatever had last night been afforded by Ministers.
i Conceiving it highly proper that the Housellhould
be told the object and the vitent of these projected
buildings, he would move an amendment to suspend
the grant of this 4125,000, by substituting the sum
of £355,587 Cs. 4d. fur £4.60,587 Cs. 4d. in the Re-
solution submitted for the approbation of the House.
Lord PALMERSTON observed, that his Right
1 Honourable Friend and himself had last night stated
ell that they could recollect on the subject of the
I lonoureble Gentleman's inquiry. For several years '
$ considerable number of barracks haci been in pro-
t gross in Leland ! for infantry at Kilmainham and Cork
' ----fcr cavalry, at Caliir, Kilkenny, Newtown, and
Maryborough), in order to relieve the civil commu-
nity from the great pressure of the troops, and to
save to the Pubsic the expeuce of hiring buildings for
~1
, - the purpose. Scveral of those barracks were to have
' been completed by the end of 1812 ;—although be
was not awsre whether they had actually been so
completed. Another description of Barracks was
also in such forwardness in Ireland, as to be expected
1 to be brought to a completion in the present year.—
The effect of agreeing to the Honourable Gentle-
man's amendment would be, that these works, so
begun, would Ib~ suspended; and that the money
already expended would be totally lost to the public.
. If the Honourable Gentleman wished for more de
, oailed accounts on the subject, be was sure that his
lion. Friend would 0 very ready to produce 03;xu.

Mr. FREEMANTLE declared, that he would
not press his amendment if the Right hlosourabla
Gendenian would assure him that he would lay be-
fore the House all these details, which in his opinion
were indispensable on the subject.
Mr. PEELE having intimated that he bad no
objection to the introduction of the information re-
quired, and that the,Htm. Gentleman might have
had it beim had.he chosen to move for.it,
Mr. FREEMANTLE withdrew his amendment.

CATHOLIC CLAIMS.
Mr. GRATTAN moved she Order of the Day
for theltHot►sc going into a Committee of the whole
House, to take into consideration the claims of his
Majesty's Roman Catholic subjects, with a view to
their final and conciliatory adjustment. '
On the question being put " that the Speaker do
now leave the Chair,"
Mr. LUSHINGTON rose and observed, that as
it was possible he shoUld pot have an opportunity of
cirliveting his sentiments on this great question after
the Speaker left the Chair, he was very anxious now
to express the opinions. he had always held upon it,
an anxiety which had given way on former nights to
a consideration of the exhausted state of the House,

after the protracted debate which had occupied their
attention. He wished both now and at all times, to
deprecate any imputation of bigotry and intolerance,
for the Right Honourable Gentleman Who brought
forward the motion could not be a truer friend to the

most perfect toleration than he was, and he wished
further to disclaim the charge for the venerable and
enlightened Clergy of the city which he had the ho-
nour to represent. Having, however, thus vindicat-
ed his motives and principles, he must be permitted'
to say, that he differed materially upon the mode in
which it was proposed to accomplish what he could
not but consider as a great change in the Constitu-
tion, nor did he think that the Right Honourable
Gentleman had laid a sufficient ground for such a
change.--:(Hear, from the Ministerial side.)—All
circumstances should have induced that Right Hon.
Gentleman to shew that those cbtroxions tenets

which the BM of Rights was intended to guard
against no longer existed, a fact which was far from
being clear it they looked to the professions of the
Catholics, orythe conduct of their advocates—at one
time Lord Grenville had vouched for the concession

of the Veto ; but the Noble Lord had left the Cabi
net before his mistake was discovered, and even at
the petiod when the Right Honourable Gentleman
(Mr. Canning) made his motion the last Session, for
a consideration of the Catholic claims, the Ca‘holics
had announced a•complete denial of all concessions
on their part. -He trusted the 1-Liuse would pardon
him for saying that they must go back to the BB of
Rights, as their guide upon this occasion ; and he
confessed he had felt much surprise on hearing an
Honourable and Learned Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Plunkett) lately assert, that the Bill of Rights con-
tained no prohibition against the Catholics—it was
enough for him to refer to the preamble and the con-
cluding parts of the Bill, to spew the necessity of
ample security. The former acts which had been
pasced on this subject bad a reference to this-security,
and the Right Honourable Gentleman was bound to
spew that no fear any longer existed. It was, as
had been justly said by his Right Honourable
Friend, a question for calm and dispassionate consi-
deration,—and he assured the Right Honourable
Mover, that if he satisfied him as to the security of
the Church and State, no man would be more ready
to support him. The House having then resolved
itself into the Committee,
Mr. GRATTAN rose and said, that as the Com-
mittee was nothing more than a new form for con-
tinuing the debate, which bad already occupied so
large a portion of their time, and as the subject had
been a good deal exhausted, it was not his intention
to to much at large into it at present: In the reso-
lution which he should have the honour of proposing,
he had make a few alterations, in compliance with
the suggestion of an Hon. Friend with whom he,had
consulted. Those alterations did not amount to any
departure from the leading features of the resolution
as he had originally prepared it, and consisted only
in such shades of difference as made it impossible
that there should not be a final concurrence upon it.
He had added such regulations as appeared neces-
sary for the preservation of the Protestant Church
and the Protestant Establishments; and though he
thought that his original idea well the same length
in this respect, yet as his. Hon. Friend was of opinion
that it might be more clearly expressed, he had
readily concurred in making the alterations sug-
gested,by him. With respect to the feelings of Eng-
land and Scotland, Nvitlt reference to the Catholic
claims, it had been stated alread:: that Scotland had
taken no active part against them ; and even though
there might exist a difference of opinion, it afforded
rather an argument for discussion than the contrary.
As to the Presbytery of Glasgow, they were decidedly
not hostile to the consideration of the question ; the
Presbytery of Edinburgh, he believed, were other-
wise disposed. With respect to England, there had
been much respectable opposition; but there had also
been much respectable support; and it was to be ob-
served further, that the agitation of the subject had
not excited that sensation which authorised them to
think that the people of England were unfavourably
disposed towards it. They had no right, either, to
predicate that the Church of England was hostile to
the measure, however individttafs might be affected
with respect to it. He was sure that the Church of
Ireland afforded less reason to warrant' that House
to keep back and refuse to entertain the question.—
In many of the Petitions the principle contained was
not a principle of opposition, but one of security ;
if they desired security, they desired it graciously ;
there was such a confidence implied both to the Le-
gislature and the Catholics, that the Catholics had,
n fact, the force of the argument in their favour.—
Those who urged the Petitions against the Catholics,
petitioned for a monopoly ; they placed the safety of
the Church and the State on the principle of exclusion,
thus assuming a position most fatal to the liberty of
the country and the monopoly of the church. But
on the subject of the general security of the nation,
there is a decided argument, they should finish what
they had begun; and those who recommended a con-
trary course, engaged them in a dispute which must
end, because the combatants on the one side desired
that they should exclude a great portion of their fel-
low-subjects by an argument which affronted those
lieu out of their connexion with them. Many of

those Petitioners put their signatures to words which
din" did not understand ; and he believed that W they
weft eked whether they thought that their Catholic
cowstrymen were enemies to. the Church and the
State, insincere in their profesiions and unsound in
their allegiance, they would at once reply that chef
held no such opinions ; but he believed also, that if
this question was left unsettled, the Catholics might
be forced out of their loyalty ; if they made ica
question of debate whether one-fifth of Isis Majesty's
subjects were well affected or not.—(Hear, hear).—
With respect to the danger of admitting the Catho-
lics into the Constitution, it had been already answer-
ed, but he would endeavour to answer it again, be-
cause it appeared to be one of great force. The ar-
gument was this, that the exclusion of the Catholics
formed a part of the Bill of Rights. He allowed it :
but as his Hon. and Learned Fiiepd (Mr. Plunkett)
had truly said, it was not an essential but an inci-
dental part of the Bill of Rights—it was mitigated,
not originated in that Bill. The Gentlemen, there-
fore, who made this assertion, should shew it to be
the case, but they could not do it. He could pro-
duce the authority of the Act of Union in Scotland,
when the oath prescribed by the Bill of Rights was
not considered to be essential but subject to future
regulation. Here then was a decisive authority
against that argument. When it was said, therefore,
that this provision was a fundamental part of the
Constitution, he would tell them that Parliament
said it was not—and when they set forth the claim
of consecration, lie would set forth the declaration
of Parliament. They could not disgrace the Parlia-
ment nor make it a party to so vile a deception.—
The next argument he believed, urged by the oppo-
nents of the Catholic Claims, was the incompatibility
of opinion with regard to the different modes of set-
tling those claims. To this he would answer, that to
those who agreed in the principles of emancipation,
there could be little discordance as to the mode of

effecting it. The first preliminary should be, that
the Church of England shogld be preserved full,
perfect, and entire—on this they were agreed ; the
second was, that nothing should be granted, which
could weaken the rights of the Protestants in Church
or State. Here then was concord. It was a question
of concession, not of difference—if there existed any
difference, it,went not to the principle but to modifi-
cations—it was a subject of debate, not of opposition.
When they had once agreed to the principle they
might consent to delay, but they never could admit
impossibility, The Right Hon. Gentleman then ad-
verted to the arguments which had been advanced
relative to the authority of Mr. Pitt, as being hostile
to their claims, in refutation of which he read an ex-
tract from a letter addressed in 1501, to Lord Fingal
and Dr. Troy, by Lord Cornwallis, as explanat,:y
of the sentiments of Mr. Pitt, from which he inferred,
that if Mr. Pitt thought the concessions of those
claims impossible, as had been asserted, he could net
have written that letter. In 1505, on Mr. Fox's mo-
tion, Mr. Pitt had said there was a bar, but never
that the measure was impracticable. If these were
the sentiments of Mr. Pitt for six years preceding his
death, was it fair to conclude that he had changed
them in the nine months immediately previous to that
event ? Difficulties, in fact, were made out of no-
thing. The same fears existed before the admission
of the Catholics to the elective franchise ; but instead
of any injurious effect, it had made elections partly
aristocratical and partly democratical ; it had founded
them not on monopoly, but on property. But the
authority of Mr. Pitt was not the only one. He
begged to name that of Mr. Burke, Mr. Fox, Mr.
Windham. His Hon. Friend near him suggested
another name, that of the Bishop of Landaff—to that
he begged to add the name of the Bishop of Nor-
wich, that model of pure and primitive Christianity.
—(Hear, hear.)—The Lord Lieutenants of Ireland,
for the last 17 years, were also authoritieslo which
he could very safely refer. 'Lord Fitzwilliam went
over on the principle of conceding to the Catholics
the claims they preferred. Lord Camden was a high
authority, intimately connected with Mr. Pitt, and
resident in Ireland in very trying times. What did
I.ord Cornwallis say publicly, in a letter to the Ca-
tholics ?—not that their claims were inadmissible, but
necessary to the connection of the empire. Lord
Hardwicke followed, and he, though first unfriendly,
afterward's pronounced concession necessary. The
opinions of the Dukes of Bedford and Richmond
were on the same side. His Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
W. Pole) had the experience of five years in an offi-
cial situation in Ireland, and his opinion had been
recently declared in the most decided manner. It
was not fair to charge his Right Hon. Friend with
inconsistency, because opinions were dependent on
times and circumstances, particularly in the consider-
ation of this question. He remembered the time,
when the mention of extending the elective franchise
in the Irish Parliament would have been received
with horror and amazement; but the time had now
arrived, when the intenseness of this feeling, as had
been said by an Hon. Friend of his the other night,
had relaxed—partiee were approaching nearer and
nearer each other ; they would at last inevitably as-
sociate and fall together, not in an union of religions,
but an union of interests—of feelings—of sentiments.
The object of the resolution-was, to remove the civil
and military disabilities of the Catholics. How was
this to be done ? by securing the succession in the
Protestant line—by guarding the prisrllegts of the
Church in all points—by suck regulations and re-
strictions as might be deemed necessary. Here was
a fair and honest principle. He would then ask leave
to bring in a Bill, founded on this Resolution with
certain provisions annexed to it for the Colleges, the
Ecclesiastical Courts, and for the prevention of all
foreign influence by the sanction of an oath. Those
Gentlemen who called for further securities should
frame them. He had established the provisions
which appeared necessary, but if they desired more,
he would not name them, because in demanding fur-
ther security it was only contending against the prin-
ciple of the Bill under the shape of regulations.—
(Hear, hear.) He thought it his duty to do no more
than this, that if any of the Gentlemen opposite had
any fair and honest proposition to make for the secu-
rity of the Church and State, he for one would be
ready to accede to it. ( Hear, Hear.) He would say
more, that even if there were any proposition not ne-
cessary for the Church and State, if it were the opi-
nion of the House that they should be adopted, and
that they did not militate against the principle of the
Bill, he was satisfied to have it loaded with them ; in
fret, he valued the principle so much that he would

1111■,..