Star.
London, England, 1809-03-15 00:00:00

but these men had not biten•Comnrandera in Chief. p
The present case rested upon a certain fraction of.,
evidence ; but nu .Honourable Member had said, 1
that it was impassible to submit evidence to a geadu- •
ation, as a thermometer, or to any exact rule. Though
a person may not give testimony under the sanction
of an oath, there was nearly the same reason to expect
the truth, as if the testimony were given upon oath ;
because a person, who would falsify in one case, would
be likely not to tell the truth in the other.
As la the imputation cast on the evidence of Mrs.
Clarke, that she was actuated by a vindictive motive,
she was in that respect to be judged of by her demea-
nour, and the inherent qualities of her manner, and
her testimony. Her evidence had been given with a
levity and a flippancy, which he admitted to have
been highly unbecoming. She appeared to have lost
that, the lass of which almost implied every thing—
she hart lost the sense of shame. With the loss of
shame, she must necessarily have lost a great part of
her good qualities, though it did not necessarily follow
that she should have lost all sense of virtue. The
dexterity which she had displayed in giving her testi-
mony was a dangerous quality. 'But he was afraid
that the spirit of fibbing, which she had manifested,
had spread widely, and was generally felt. But the
carelessness with which she had given her testimony
was such as to make him receive her evidense with
extreme distrust. Having thus stated what he had
to object to the witness on one hand, he must agree
with hisLeanied friend (Sir S. ROMILLY), that though
Mrs. Clarke was capable of telling a story, yet her
evidence was not wholly to be discredited. By the
promptness and unpremeditated character of her tes-
timony, she appeared to have given a true evidence—
to have delivered it in a sort of running hand—to
have paid it in bullion. She left it completely open
to investigation, and left the House to consider how
far it was overcome by facts, and the opinion that was
entertained of her character. And here it might be
necessary to guard against the facility of her evidence 1,
assuming the air of truth, because she had only to
walk fearlessly over her course, where she had only
to detail conversations which had taken place between
her and the Duke of York. She told all she knew,
and, therefore, he contended, that in the whole of
her evidence she was open to examination ; and
the inaccuracies of her testimony, instead of being
circumstances to impeach her credit, went to confirm
it. When she had hardly time to premeditate; there
had arisen, as it were out of the grave, circumstances
to corroborate her evidence. As to the contradiction
between her testimony and that of Mr. Knight, re-
specting the date of the transaction about thf ex-
change, he was not surprised that such a difference
should exist. Either party might be wrong, but with-
out positive proof be could not admit that the state-
ment of Mi. Clarke was less correct than that of the
-other party. With respect to the contradiction as to
an injunction to secrecy, Mrs. Clarke might as well
be right as Mr. Knight, because the answer as stated
• by that Gentleman might have been given rather to
the inference than to the fact. She certainly could
have no reason to wish that her influence should be
divulged. She had no occasion to feel it necessary
that her interference should be known :

Niltit me scire prodest, nisi me scire hoc sciat alter.
As to the evidence of Miss Taylor, it was the oppo-
site of that of Mrs. Clarke. Miss Taylor had a good
character and gave bad evidence ; Mrs. Clarke, on the
contrary, had a bad character and gave good evi-
dence. It was not, however, to he supposed that Miss
Taylor would have given up her school and her pro-
spects in life, in order to give testimony in favour of
Mrs. Clarke. She appeared, nevertheless, in the
situation of a person influenced by Mrs. Clarke.—
The course, however, that had been pursued to in-
validate her testimony, by examining into the cir-
cumstar.ces of her family and birth, he eould not
but condemn ; and he could not con--. 1- Ler the
less credible a witness, because of any thing that could
have been discovered in such an inquiry. As to the
circumstance of the note respecting Major Tonyn, he
did not think that made any thing against the Duke
of York. Another general topic which had been
touched upon was, that the Duke of Yolk must have
suspected the practices of Mrs. Clarke, knowing, as he
did, the sums he allowed for the support of the esta-
blishment at Gloucester-place. The Duke of York
had been guilty, certainly, of a thing which could not
be justified, in forming an immoral connection, which
led to those consequences upon which the presump-
tion injurious to his character was founded. He did
not know but this might be sufficient to call for
his removal, as many were of opinion that as
" Ccsar's wife must not he even suspected," so the ad-
ministration of the different departments of the State
should b: above suspicion. He conceived that the Ad-
dress of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Banker) did
convey the sentiments of those who only thought that
sonic degree of suspicion attached to those transac-
tions, in terms that were delicate, and which remo-
ved the sting of the Address of the Hen. Mover,
( Mr. Wardle), At h.cli must undoubtedly be most
galling to his Majesty. If, then, he was compelled
to wince an optioa Imeceen the first Resolution of the
Night Honourable Gentleman (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer) and the Address of his Hon. Friend,
(Mr. Wardle), he should be obliged to prefer the
latter, although he could easily conceive that it would
be possible so to modify the first Resolution of the
Right Honourable Gentleman, as that he should
think it preferable to the Address. As to the sort of
threats that had been held in terrorem ovets the House,
of the popular opinion, upon this case, he would say,
that there could be no corruption more degrading or
ti vilifying than for that House, after the pains they had
taken in the examination of the evidence upon this sub-
ject, to allow themselves to be governed by the opi. ,
nions of those who had not equal means of judging.
If he had 'entertained at first an opinion favour-
able to those charges, he would not have been
back Ward in supporting them. When Mr. Paull
brought forward charges in that House which espo-
sed him to quite as much obloquy as the Honourable
Mover of the present charges was exposed, he sup-
ported Mr. Paull, because he thought the charges
were well-founded, and he should have equally sup-
ported the present charges, if he had thought they
had hem welllfounded. Mrs. Clarke had stated, and`
the Hon. Gentleman admitted, that he (Mr.Wardle)
had taken papers and letters from her by force. He did
not know what was the degree of force, whether it was
an affected struggle on her part, or a permitted ripe
of those letters—EA laugh] ; but this he would say
thiit if the Hon. Member really did get pesst*sion of

those letters prec;selT.in the Mahn mentioned by Mrs.
Clarke, there was not n Angle charge broughteout
against the Duke of York, which he would not rather
• be guilty of than of that action. (Hear, 11...u5r. from the
Ministerial Benches.) He did nut censider that the case
or Samuel C' titer bore with any strength against the
Duke. If he was a footietys as he was called, it was
better than if he had been a footman, for many who
had in early life been of.the lowest rank, were after-
wenis highly distinguished in the world. With time
the mark wore out of their mouths. (A laugh.) He
should, however, ask those who considered the treat-
mem of Miss Taylor as most cruel, because it was
unnecessary, lad not Satantel Carter been treated id
a manner equally cruel, by being brought forward
without the least necessity ? His low birth had been
unnecessarily proclaimed to the world : he had been
trodden down like a weed, and ruined; by his natne
having been brought forward by the Honourable
Mover, without the least appearance of necessity, and,
as Mrs. Clarke stated, he direct contradiction to a
positive promise given, and merely by taking an ad-
vantage somewhat unfair of a confidential communi-
cation. He concluded by saying, that it was with great
pain he felt himself bound to vote for the Address of his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Bankes), in preference to the Re-
solution of the Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Lord CASTLEREAGH rose, amidst the cries of
Question ! Question ! He thought it not a little extra.
ordinary that the Right Hon. Gentleman had taken
grounds for his vote so little consonant to the opinion
which he delivered in his speech. For his part, he
conceived k much better to come to a distinct reso-
lution, than to approach his Majesty in the .first
instance by an Address. If, however, he were to
give an opinion between the two Addresses, he should
prefer the Address of the Honourable Mover, as con-
voying a more direct Resolution of the House. If
the House really believed the Duke of York guilty of
either knowing or suspecting that Mrs. Clarke received
mcney for those Commissions, which he granted at her
interference, he could not see how it was possible to
avoid pronouncing him corrupt. If he had known that
such sums of money went to the support of the escab-
lishment in Gloucester-place, it would have been as cor-
rupt as if he had put the money in his own pocket. His
Honourable Friend (Mr. Bankes) had conceived that
delicacy to the Crown required rather that the Ad-
dress should be worded in the manner he had propos-
ed, than in the manner which had been originally
proposed by the Honourable Mover (MreWardle).
He vit.eved, however, this point of delicacy inn very
different light. What. muse be the feelings of his
Majesty if he should be informed that his son was still
charged with corruption of the foulest kind, and that
that son had not been heard in his defence ? The
Noble Lord then entered into a review -of the evi-
dence, and considered that Mrs. Clarke Was evidently
actuated by the most decided resentment and the
most vindictive feelings. This appeared to him
evident not only from the letters she wrote to *Mr.
Adam, but from the testimony of Colonel M'Mahon,
with respect to the letter she had written to the
Prince of Wales, and the conversations she had held
with him. He was ready to admit, that he believed
Mrs. Clarke had spoken a great deal of truth ( Hear,
:'Hear!)- and yet he woukl.noe:believeher in that which
TestEd almost entirely on.her assertion, the knowledge
and privity of the Duke to her transactions. She had
narrated her own transactions with considerable ac-
curacy, and in that narration, which was also con-
firmed by documents, and other evidence, he thought
she was worthy of belief, because she had no intereSt
in speaking falsely. But when she came to assert
that the Duke knew of her corrupt transactions, he
would not believe her, because that was a thing easy
of invention, which was incapable ef direct contradic-
tion, and to which she might well he supposed to be
stimulated by her resentment. If she could have
established the corruption of his Royal Highness in
any one instance, he should then have believed she
spoke the truth when she mentioned other instances.
—She had, however, proved no such thing, and
no man's life or character would be safe if it de-
pended on such tes:imony. It was very easy to con-
ceive that -a combinetion might have existed between
Mrs. Clarke, Mrs. Faveinite (ler half-sister and house-
keeper) Miss Taylors her sister-in-law, and Mr. bow-
ler, her favourite lover. It would be recollected that
so far filen being the unwilling witness she had repre-
sented herself, she had written letters to Donovan and
to Captain Sadden, to induce them to join in her plan;
and that, on the very day that Mr. Dewier at rived
from Spain, she went to his. hotel, and passed the
night with him, for no other purpose that could
be conceived (a loud anti gentral lau,sll) but to ex-
tract from him what evidence he would be able to
give, and to arrange their plans in concert. It ap-
peared to him the most incredible thing on earth,
areni . the-Duke had really been consciousof any col--
nipt practices, such as had been imputed to him,
he should part from this woman hi the manner he
did, without making an arrangement to induce her not
to mention those transactions. It was incredible that
he should have preferred an investigatioe like the pre-
sent, attended with so many painful exposures, to a
compromise with this woman, if he had not been per-
fectly conscious of innocence. As to the feeling of the
army with respect to the Duke of York, he was con-
vinced that no man ever enjoyed so completely their
affections, and no man had tver done so much good
to the army. Under his administration every attAttioe
had been paid to the comforts of the soldier, and the
character of the army had made rapid strides to
perfection, and he should implore the House to con-
sider rather the military charges against him, than the
accusation of immorality. If even under the corrupt
influence of Mrs. Clarke, he had never given any ap-
pointments that were not justified on strict military
grounds, it must be supposed his future administration
would be still more free from blame, now he had-extri-
cated himself from that influence and connection, and
received a very severe lesson, from the evils it had occa-
sioned, and the painful exposures which had been made.
There was another point of view in which the sub-
ject was of the utmost importance. His Royal High-
ness stood very near in the succession to the Throne.
If he should now be branded as a man unfii tobe trusted
in the service of his country, the same reason should go
tei induce Parliament to exercise their power in cutting
off his succession ; for how could a man, stained with
infamy and corruption, command, or deserve the
respect and affections of the people of this country ?
On that account he deprecated any condemnation by
the House • of• Commons, hut. demanded, as he had
weston4sedlee the right to 4.6,4 jiw byshie Peers, if

the Reuse should tank there was a sufficient case to
put him on his trial. He objected then to both those
Addresses, as going to brand the Duke of York with
infamy, without allowing him the benefit of a trial
by his Peers, under the usual sanction of the wit-
nesses being sworn. It appeared to him that no case
had bees made out, which would jus y such a pro-
ceeding in the House, and therefore he should vote-
for the Resolutions as moved by his Right Honour-
able Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer.)
Mr. CALCRAFT szid, he katr.v the dreadful
abyss into which his Royal Iliglovess the Duke of
York must fall, if he met with the condemnation of that
House. He certainly felt for him very much ; he felt
also the highest respect and duty towardstheilluslious
Personage ; but he could not forget that he had a
paramount duty to fulfil to the House and the coun-
try ; and lie would, however disagreeable it might be
to him, endeavour to discharge that duty, so as to ac-
quit himself to his own conscience ant to the country.
The House were now on the point of coming to a de-
cision on a subject of the greatest magnitude and im-
portance that had ever been submitted to their consi-
deration, and they must decide on a fair, cool, and
dispassionate view of the evidence, and give their
verdict accordingly. The Royal person who was the
subject of the inquiry then betore them, had unques-
tionably had the advantage of all the most eminent
legal abilities which that House contained within it,
aided also by his Majesty's Ministers, who, whatever
he might in other respects think of them, tad certain-
ly defended the Duke of York in so zealous and ablest

manner as reflected the greatest credit on their talents,
and on their attention to the honour and charac-
ter of the Comraander in Chief. He felt himself
induced to speak on this subject to-night, in conse-
quence of what had fallen, from the Noble Lord who

had just sat down as to the evidence of Mr. Dowler
in particular. The Noble Lord had said it was on his
part a conspiracy to aid and assist Mrs. Clarke in sup-
parting the chargcsbrought forward against his Royal
Highness. He (Mr. Cakraft) confessed, he was
astonished to hear the Noble Lord make such a
charge. A conspiracy ! it was impossible. Mr.
Dowler _was abroad in the service of his country,
when the-charges were first introduced, and did not
of his own accord come back to England, but was
actually sent home with dispatches. It was, there-
fore, impossible he could conspire to aid charges, of
the existence of which he was ignorant tilltis arrival
in England. The Honourable Member then adverted
to the note on Tonyn's business, which he deemed to •
be a damning proof against the Commander in Chief.
He was also of opinion that Miss Taylor's evidence
was clear and decisive against the Duke of York, in
the affair of Fronch'slevy. At that late hour lie would
not waste the time of the House by entering into
any detail of the evidence, which had been so fully
dilated onby several of his Hon. and Learned Friends.
There were, nevertheless, one or two points he would
beg leave aebriefly as possible to touch upon. The No-
ble Lord had said the Duke of York had never partici-
pated with Mrs. Clarke in any pecuninary transactions.
He (Mr. Caleraft) • was decidedly of -opinion, that
such participation had been proved. Ijis Royal
Highness- had employed Mr. Comrie, who - was Mrs.
Clarke's Solicitor, to negociate and raise a loan for
him, and for that purpose had referred him to his own
men of -business. Ile had without reserve entrusted
Mrs. Clarke with the disclosure of his distresses, and
there was in his (Mr. Calcraft's) mind no doubt but
she had as unreservedly informed him of her own.
He next took notice of the Duke of York's letter to
the House, through the medium of the Speaker, in
which his Royal Highness had sliewn that he was very--
willing to acct eir acuittancet tat e stron-
ly deprecated their condemnationq ~ bu
Heh thouhght thagt -
letter went in a great degree to question and deny the
authority of the House, and as such entrench on their
privileges. He felt the strongest objections in his own
mind to it, when he first heard it read, and was sorry
he had not then expressed the sentiments of his mind ;
but seeing so many others of far greater Parliament-
ary.. knowledge and experience than he possessed,
pass by it without ',mice, he had been awed into
silence, and so had assented to its being permitted
to lie upon the table. He would tot wish to
trespass on the time o'.• the House, and should,
there ore, conclude by saying, that he had endea-
voured to make up his m . d to vote in favour of the
Address of the Honou: ab c Gentleman on the floor
(Mr. Bankes), but he thought the circumstances
against the Duke of Yc rk )o strong, that he would
rather choose to adopt :om: Resolution that might be
better, and more close:3r adipted to meet the subject
on which the House we st ) come to a decision. If
no such Resolution should be hereafter proposed, hb
should prefer the original Address proposed by the
Honourable Gentleman behind him (Mr. Wardle).
Lord TEMPLE said, that on a question of such
high importance, he could not think of giving a si-
lent vote. He should therefore wish to give his rea-
sons as concisely as possible for differing in opinion
with his Honourable Friend who had just sat down :
but at that late hour he would not trespass on the pa-
tience of the House, but would then move, that the .
House adjourn to this day. In doing this he hoped,
nevertheless, the House would not be inclined to pro-
tract the debate, but would come to a decision as •
speedily aepossible. •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
coincided in opinion with the Noble Lord as to the
adjournment, and also in the hope that the House
might be able to come to a decision of the first ques-
tion at the close of this day's debate, which had al-
ready been protracted to a very peat length ; but he
must confess with a temperance in the discussion, and
a patience in the attention, which no subject had ever
before received. • . .

Mr. HERBERT thou t, that when so many
Gentlemen had patiently listened to while they
gave their opinions at such length as to average two
hours eath, the Country Gentlemen, who would not
perhaps take up quarters, where the others had con-
sumed whole hours, should not be curtailed of an op-
portunity of speaking their sentiments.
Mr. PONSONBY said, he should for one put in
his claim to being heard on the subject ; he hoped,
however, that the House would be able to come to a
decision of a preliminary question at the close of this
day's debate, though there would certainly follow
another on the order, in which the ultimate decision
of the House should take place.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
concurred in this opinion.
Adjourned at HALF-PAST TURES o'clock.