Star.
London, England, 1822-06-25 00:00:00

. • . . - ' • •.. . . . . .
pal colonies, from which it ap-
rlnca •
with " W the Slave Trade; for in a alker it was op; r°l2: of the p. • •
poset,it was carried by a majority of ten to bite.; but Pear that seven-eighths of the whole appointments
only after the voice of the People had. con that had. been filled op by native servants, were ap-
demned it.
pointed by the
thirty years before. It was necessary to bring the
in'somealiere were
not more than
people more in contact and unison with their 'Repre- 'Colonial Governments—(Henr, hear).
. three or four, and
sentatives, in order to avoid those evils which were in none more than seven or eight offices, under the
destroying the balance of the Constitution He there- appointment of the Crown at all—(Hear, hear, hear).
f,re should move-4, That the influence no pos- It would have been -
but fair in the Honourable and
sensed ba the Crown is unnecessary for the retaining Learned Gentleman, in considering this part of the
of its prerogatives, destructive of the indepenacredit for what eace case, to have given Governme t
of Parliament, and inconsistent with the well-govern- had done to diminish the n'
influence
of the Crown in
log of the realm"—[The Honourable and. Learned the Colonies. If he had acted with as much candour,
Go/Yen:an, at the conclusion of his speech, was loud he would have had
.9 co inform the House of their abo-
cheered bli both sides of the House.] li •
Orin of numerous patent offices compatible
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had seats in that House—(Hear,
/ear).—According to
to bespeak the favourable indulgence of the House, the ' existing regulations, no offices could be held
while he as shortly as possible followed the course of by persons who did not go out themselves to the Co-
argument taken by the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. lonies ; and in that particular the
whole influence of
The proposition of the Hon. and Learned Member the Crown had been changed and subverted (Hear).
appeared to be founded in a great measure on a cal- The law which had wrought the change not only
of
culation of the public expenditure; and if he could divested the Crown the power over twenty-nine
induce the House to sustain his proposition, he in- offices for
political purposes, but it absolutely turned
tended, it seemed, to advance a traeasure, the nature out twenty-nine persons from that House. He must
of which he (the Marquis) could not Collect from the next follow the Hon. Gentleman to the East Indies;
speech of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, until he and upon that part of the statement he could merely
had kindly disclosed it at the end. The Hon and observe, in'the absence of details, *that when he be-
Learned Gentleman had declared his intention to longed to that department of the State, it would have
propose a Reform of the Parliament. low, he had been considered a year of extraordinary harvest, had
tio objection in the world to the Hon. and Learned such amount of patronage as he had stated occurred.
Gentleman's attempting to reform the Parliament. The third of what he had stated would be nearer the
It had been attempted before in the course of the truth ; and then it was to be considered, that this
present Session, and undoubtedly the Honourable and Patronage was.granted by the Company as matter of
Learned Member bad a right, if be pleased, to return grace and favour to the Board of Controul, and not
to the charge ; but he ought not to' do this under to the Government. The Hon. and Learned Gentle-
cover of diminishing the influence of the Crown. He man stated, aliat the charge of collecting the revenue
was happy to assure the House that he could join of fifty millions was four millions at first ; 'whereas
issue with the Hon. and Learned Gentleman, as to in. 1780 it was only one million. In order to place
MSC of the facts he bad advanced in support of his this part of the quistion in its true light, it was neces-
arguments. He should not enter into the motive of nary to look at the comparative numbers employed,
any individual Member of Parliament ; .but he de- with the amount collected. He held in his hand an
vied, in the outset, it was of the corrupt nature at- account of this nature, for the Customslof the year
tributed to it by the Honourable and Learned Gen- 1797, as Compared with that of 1821, and he should'
tleman. He believed that the influence of the Crown have, taken his information from 1792, being the
gave strength to the opinion of large bodies.— more usual year of reference, were it not that the re-
At the same time he admitted that that influence had cords for that year had been burnt. In the year 1797,
at times been excessive, and that the measure which, it appeared that the number of officers employed for
as appeared by history, had at various times been the Customs Revenue was 5728. The number em-
brought forward to restrain it, had been constructed Ployed last year, 1821, was 6864 persons. Thus the
on principles of sound and good legislation ; and he increase was less than 1000, and the difference in the
hoped the same degree of vigilance would continue amount of revenue collected was between £11,500,000
to be observed towards that influence ; and if the' for the latter year, and £6,000,000 for the former—
Hon. and Learned Gentleman had made out a case (Hear, hear).—The amount collected, therefore, was
of the existence of influence inconsistent with the double, and the number employed for that purpose
liberties of Parliament, it would be their duty to take had increased only one-seventh. An increase of one-
immediate steps to .check the growth of it. But he third had taken place in the salaries, but that was'
had no right to argue as he bad done, by asserting principally owing to a commutation which had been
that the influence of the Crown was great, and as- made for fees, but the influence of the Crown had in
sunning, therefore, that there should be a Reform in no way been swelled by that.. It was much the same
'Parliament. That was the real object of his motion; in the Excise. In 1792, the number of officers was
for he had distinctly statel that it was to a reformed 4693 ; for the year 1821 it was .5665. The salaries
Parliament that they were to look for a remedy to all in the former year were £318,000, in the latter
the evils of the last twenty years. The Hon. and £638,000, having doubled in.ainount from the same
Learned Gentleman drew a comparison between the cause as he had stated to operate in the Customs.—
extent of the influence of the Clown in 1780, when The Revenue in the two cases were 8,120,0001. and
the Parliament voted that it was excessive, and after 24,647,0001. shewing the increase in the number of
endeavouring to make it appear that that influence persons employed at less than 1000, with an aug-
bad increased since that period, came to a conclusion mentation in the Revenue of 18,000,0001. sterling.—
that it was excessive now. His mode of making the He next came to the Taxes, which gave a difference
comparison, however, was not a fair one—by taking of from 3,500,0001. as they were in 1792, and
the amount of the revenue in the oss, and the 7,400,0001. as at present. The number of Officers
:comparative numbers of the army and navy. That was for the former period was 220, and for the latter 287.
not treating the question upon its own basis, not coming In the Stamps, the difference was from 3,4.00.0001.
so much to close quarters as he could have wished. Nob :100,000/. and the number of persons employed
The narrower basis was, the extent of the influence now exactly the same as then, viz. 24. Thus he
of the Crown in Parliament. But taking the extent was sure it must be obvious that the whole regula-
of the Revenue in time of war was by no means an tions of the service, so far from being framed to en-
equitaole way ; and he must here say that he found courage patronage, shewed that the authors of them
a spirit of exaggeration run through the whole of the were in search of a principle of sound financial admi-
Hon. and Learned Gentleman's statement upon this nistration of the resources of the country. In the
occasion. All his figures were augmented beyond Customs there were certain regulations as to age ob-
their fair and real amount, and all his extracts dis- served with regard to all persons admitted, and their
torted in a manner that it would ill become the promotion took place according to merit and previ-
House to allow itself to come to a conclusion upon, ous examination. The Honourable and Learned Gen-
in a matter pregnant with such deep importance and tleman said, that the Treasury had extended its grasp-
danger. For instance, be stated the revenue and ing arms into every department of the State, and he
expenditure for the present year at 28,000,0001. particularized the Excise. Now he defied him to
whereas it was only 18,000,0001. In the same way make out this assertion, and he protested against any
he quoted the Army at 33,000 in 1780, whereas the such being received by the House. The Board of
influence of the Crown spread over 60,000, inde- Excise had at complete contreul over their depart-
pendent of the establishment at home. But when the meet now as at any former period, and everything
Hon. and Learned Gentleman compared the extent relating to that department shewed the reverse
of the influence of the Crown at these two aseriods, of any principle that arrived at patronage. The
would be also compare the state of the country?— most curious part of the Hon. and Learned Gen-
Would he compare the population at present withwhat tleman's case was where he attempted to establish the
it was in 1780 ; the difference in point of wealth, and existence of great Crown influence from thirty mil-
the difference in the state of the public mind after it lions paid to the public creditor. In order to assist
had been broken in upon by all the dangerous and his argument here, he was obliged to have recourse
fatal doctrines, which from the time of the French to the Exchequer processes, upon which he had raised
Revolution up to the present period, had come forth a very learned law argument no doubt, but the'
to distui b the peace of the world?—(Hear, hear).—In bearing of which on the question he hoped he should
adverting to the comparative strength of the Army be excused for saying he could not at all understand.
and Navy, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman stated He believed, in point of fact, that so far from the Ex-
the number of 27,000 as being under the influence chequer processes being increased during the period
.of the Crown in the half-pay alone, and then asked he had alluded to, the taxes had been collected
them ho .v it was possible to resist this? In the first throughout a period of great and general distress
place he must say, that he was here, as in most of his with less recurrence to legal processes for the last two
calculations, quite at a loss to conceive where the years, and particularly this year, than at any other
Hon. and Learned Gentleman got his numbers from. known time. It was impossible for him to go into.
But he asked, was this numerical kind of argument the instances quoted by the Hon. and Learned Gen-
a fair way of treating the question ? Ought not rather tleman, which, after all, applied more to the severity
the basis of the argument to be the spirit in which this of the law, than to the question before them ; but he
amount of influence was administered ? The Army must say, that if he wished to derive any benefit from
be was sure w:a administered upon principle! as free that part of his argument, built upon a supposed
from any imputation of party favour as it was possi- mistaken increase in the number of Exchequer pro-
ble ; and he appealed to many Hon. Members on the cesses, he must thoroughly revise it. The next point of
Opposition Benches whether they were not treated, attack was the influence in Parliament from the nuns-
both at the Horse Guards and the Admiralty, with ber of the officers of the Crown. The Hon. and
as much candour and liberality as though they al- Learned Gentleman here stated that the number of
ways v-Jted with his Majesty's Ministers?—(Cheers). placemen in Parliament at present was eighty.—
They had already discussed the two services in point Here again he must observe, that he must be in pos-
of amount, and he challenged any one to make out session of more materials for calculation than he (the'
a case of abuse in the employment of the prover they Marquis of Londonderry) had access to, as he found
afforded to the Crown. The Hon. and Lea:tied Gen- himself quite unable to keep pace with him. He had,
tleman next went to the Colonies, and stated the in- however, taken great pains to inform himself oa thti
crease of offices in that department of influence at subject, and the result of his investigation was, that
eight hundred. Where he got his materials from he there were not more than 47 or 48 persons in that'
(the Marquis of Londonde: ry) did not know ; but al- House who held offices under, the Crown, that could
though he was not prepared to go into detail fur the in any sense be said to give the Crowe any influence
information of the House, he would undertake to say, over them. Indeed, he thought the Honourable and
• that if 'cairns on that subject were laid before the Learned Gentleman must have drawn largela on the
House, they would find thathe had doubled the num- i stores of placemen around him, to be able at an to
ber from what it actually was. He supposed he had I make out his numbers. He thought chat he must
Create. I as offices under the Crown all the offices in the have included the Hon. Member for Caine, and the
Col. •;oes, and even then, to make good his numbers, Hon. Member for Bath, and also the Hon. Member
he must have had recourse to the most menial offices. for Peterborough must have been paraded ori the
Ile had got a statement of how this matter stood its, occasion. But upon reviewing these
-troops, if they