Star.
London, England, 1809-02-01 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPEAKFR acqtainted the '2ouse that he had received a
letter from Sir David Baird, in answer to the communication he
had made to that gallant Officer of the Vote of Thanks passed on
Wednesday last to him, and the Army under his command, which
he should now read accordingly. It shortly expressed the thanks
of Sir David to the House for the honour thus conferred on hint
and the Army under his contrnaild, and a high sense of the appro-
bation of Parliament. It requested the Speaker to make those
sentiments known to the House, and particularly thanked him for
the very polite and flattering manner in which he had conveyed
the sense of Parliament.

The Sheriffs of London presented at the bar a petition from
the Lord Mayor, Aldermen, &c. pKaying a Bill to allow further
time for the purchase of houses, and other operations necessary in
widening the entrance to the City at Temple Bar.—Petition re-
ceived, and referred to a Committee.

Alderman SHAW presented a Petition from James Jackson
and James 1\ T‘Gosvan, praying a Bill to protect them in theexchl-
sive rights of an invention to secure woollen, cotton, and paper
manufactures from mildew, and render them impervious to rain.
—Referred to a Committee.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER moved the thanks
of the Movie to the Rev. Charles Probv, Chaplain of the Hoop.,
for his Sermon preached before ;hem yesterday, at St. Margaret's
Church.—Agreed to.

IRISH MILITIA.
Sir ARTHUR WELLESLEY gave notice oftg motion on to-
morrow, for a Bill to enable his Majesty to accept Volunteers
from the Irish Militia into the Line, to a certain extent.
Mr. 13ANKES ga. e notice of a motion on to-morrow, for a
copy of the warrant which appointed Mr. Lynd Conservator of
the interests of Scotland in the N •therlands, with a view to see
how that warrant bore upon the appointment cf an Honourable
Member for Pool?, to the office of his Majesty's Consul-G4Seral
for Portugal.
Mr. CANNING presented a copy of the warrant appointing
Mr. Jeffery of Poole Consu:-3eneral for Portugal.
KING'S ADVOCATE.
Sir CHARI.ES POI.E asked whc:her there was any intention
of dividing the labour of the of ice of King's Advocate ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was not aware
lint any chanv of the nature allotted to was in contemplation.
'the proce..dings of the Court of Inquiry to whom the consider-
ation of the Armistice and Convention cf. Porte/al were referred,
were laid on the table, and crdered to be Fri:Acct.
SCITLY.

The- CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved the order of the day for the House to resolve
itself into a Committee of Supply, and that the
speech of the Lords Commissioners be referred to
them. Ordered, and the House vesclved accordingly.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
woved a resolution, that it be the opinion of this
' Committee, that a supply be granted to his Majesty.
Mr. PETER MOORE rose to ask the Right
Hon. Gentleman, now for the third time, whether the
House was to expect the production of accounts, shew-
ing the expenditure of the supplies of he last year,
before it was called on to vote new tupplies ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
answered, that the Honourable Gentleman could
hardly expect the production of all those accounts
to which he alluded, before the House was called on
for the vote usual in the first place every Session,
that a supply be granted to his Majesty. Without
any necessity for interposing such a delay in the usual
vote of a supply; if there • was any paper or account
t delayed unnecessarily, he should be ready to give to
the House and the Honourable Gentleman any infor-
mation necessary, or to explain the caatse of such de-
lay. He begged leave to refer the Honourable Mem-
ber to the Act of Parliament, which required that all
accounts of supply and expenditure be laid on the
Able before a certain day, which day was yet very
emote ; and it would be time enough fur the Hon.
Member to complain, when any account was delayed
.c,yond that day.
Mr. P. MOORE replied, he was aware of the re-
urn'required by the Act of Parliament, before a cer-
ain day ; but that was no reason why the accounts
hould be withheld until that day. The Honourable
entleman was lout new in his office, or he would not
aye argued thus. He s no reason whatever why
e public accounts of the last year should not be on.
e table before the 15th of January. The accounts
f the Customs and Excise were regularly made up.
v the first Monday in every month, and ready to be
elivered on the Wednesday ; he could see no reason
by the same regularity and dispatch should not be
forced in every other department, and he thought
e House should vote no neer supplies until those
mints were brought forward, and full time given
examine every item, if it was for no other reason than
operate as a spur to the promptitude of Ministers.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
d, that although the receipts c,lthe Custosns and

neaos of expenditure- Imre infinitely more extended,
and could not be acquired at i few officer. He would
assure the Honourable Gentleman, that the accounts
necessary for the information of the House, under
each head of expenditure, should be forthcoming
enough for examination, 'before any supply was
posed under such head.

The vote passed, and was ordered to be reported
to-morrow.

VIE COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

Mr. WA RDLE wished to call the attention of the
House to the subject appointed for the investigation
of the Committee to-morrow, in respect to his Royal
Highness the Commander-in-Chief. He. understood
that some of the witnesses whom it would be neces-
sary for him to examine touching this inquiry were
not now in London, particularly Major Kqight and
Major Brooke : and as he wished to adduce such
proofs as would place the truth of the statement he
had made to the House beyond the possibility of
doubt, he trusted the House would not expect him to'
go through the whole of his case without the atten-
dance of those witnesses he thought necessary. Ho
was ready, however, to go into the inquiry to-mor-
row, or any other day the House thought more pro-
per, with such witnesses as were in readiness to attend.
But he hoped the House •would indulge him with
some further delay in respect to those points, to esta-
blish which the necessary witnesses might not be im-
mediately forthcoming, and permit him to move for
.my additional witnesses to these he had already'
named, and whom he should deem requisite in the;
progress of the business. The witnesses, for whose
attendance to-morrow he should now move, were
Lieutenant-Colonel Knight, of the sth Dragoon
Guards; Major Brookes Dr. Andrew Thynne, 'of
Berner-street; Robert Knight, Esq. of Dean-street,
Audley-square; and Mrs. Mary Anne Clarke, of
Westmoreland-place, Sloane-square.
Those several persons were accordingly ordered to
attend, as was the proper person from the office of
Messrs. Cocks and Biddulph, Bankers, with their
banking-book for July last. It was also ordered, that
Mr. Biddulph, a Member of the House, do attend in
his place to-morrow.

DEBTORS IN EQUITY.

Sir SAMUEL R@MILLY, pursuant to notice,
rose to bring forward his motion for leave to bring in
a bill for extending to debtors, confined upon the or-
ders of Courts of Equity, the benefits of the Act
of the 32d Geo. It. commonly called the Lords'
Act. The Learned Member shortly explained the
nature and objects of this bill. Previously to the
passing of the Lords' Act, the creditor WAS entitled,
by the common law, to confine his debtor for life, or
until his debt should be liquidated, without making
him any allowance whatever. By the Lords' Act it
was ordained, that every debtor, confined for sums not
exceeding a certain amount, should be entitled, upon
affidavit of the fact, to claim from the creditor, at whose
suit he was confined, a pittance for his maintenance of
per day,tobe paid him weekly, on a certain day, and
any default of such payment entitled the debtor to his
liberation. By subsequent Acts of the 33d and 37th of
his present Majesty, this allowance was increased to
sixpence ; but the relief was in no case extended to
persons confined for non-payment of equity debts,
and who were attached for contempt of Court, in
consequence o such non-payment. The object of
his bill, therefore, was to extend the relief to such per-
sons, notwithstanding any law to the contrary. Leave
was given to' bring in the bill.

VICTORY AT CORUNNA.
Lord CASTLEREAGH, after expressing his re-
gret that the name of an Honourable and gallant of-'
ficer was, by 'mere inadvertency, omitted in his mo-
tion on Wednesday last, for the Thanks of the House
to the Officers of the British Army at tile battle of
Corunna, moved, that the Thanks of the House he
returned also to Brigadier General Crawford, fin. his
gallant conduct on that occasion. Agreed to 'rem con.

CLOTHING CONTRACTS.
Mr. H. THORNTON adverted to the subject of
certain contracts of a former year for supplying the
army with great coats, which was brought into dis-
cussion towards the close of the last Session, by an
Honourable Colonel opposite to him (Colonel War-
dle), and rose now for the purpose ofn moving that
there be laid before the House the copy of a letter of
the 2:lth of June, 1803, addressed from Messrs.
Pearse and Co. army clothiers, to his Royal High-
ness the Commander in Chief, the production of
which he was confident would vindicate the conduct
and character of those respectable persons from the
obloquy which had been thrown upon them by the
Honourable Colonel, and prove that the statements
on which that Honourable Gentleman had founded
his motion, were completely erroneous. Indeed he
had hoped that the Honourable Member himself, now
that he was apprized of the circumstance, would
have been forward to acknowledge his error, and do
justice to the characters and feelings of those Gentle.
men, fur the injury they had sustained from his state-
ments. He moved ibr the letter above stated.
Colonel WARDI.E said, he felt himself taken by
surprize in this motion of the Honourable Gemle-1
man. He, however, felt confident, that the letter in,
question, so far from exculpating the conduct of those
persons, would render it still blacker ; as he could
prove that they, had no scruple in falsifying upon one
page of their books, when it served their purpose,
that which they asserted on another, and that the
public suffered great injury from their conduct.
After sonic further conversation, in which Messrs.
THORNTON, HUSKISSON, WART:LE, and the CHANCEL-
LOR 01 the ExcriNuEtt took a part, the motion was
withdrawn, and fresh notice given for to-morrow.

SIR JOHN MOORE.
Mr. WHITBREAD wished, before the Order of
the Day was read, to ask the Noble Lord on the op-
posite Bench, vhether there was any probability the
public would be gratified with the publication of any
part of Sir John Moore's dispatches ? From what fell
irons the Noble Lord on a preceding evening, he was
taught to expect there would be no objection to pub-
lish certain parts of these dispatches. He had looked
with great anxiety to Saturday's Gazette, and was
disappointed to find they did not appear in it.
Lord CASTLEREAGH observed, that the Ho-1
nourable Member had anticipated what he intended
to mention before he sat down. The purpose for
which he chiefly rose was to ascertain from an Hon.
Member on the opposite bench, the nature of the no-
tion respecting Spain of which he had given notice for
Monday sennight. The period of iiscussion being

rsci mime; tf was very desirable for Loth 'sides of the
House to be put in possession *of all the preliminary
infiarmation that was necessary. • They would be the
morecothpetent to c wile to a fair decision, by possessing
tbo..instructions on which the camgaign was carried ,
on. On thepart of Government, there would be no ob-
jection to granting copies of these. The only restric-
tion they wished to make related to pending instruc-
tions ; and copies of these he heped-to be able to lay
before the House while the other papers were pre-
paring. Ministers were as anxious as the Honourable
Member for•the discussion ; as it would' much
forward the business, if the necessary information was
obtained, he trusted that. the Honourable Member
would frame a Motion with a view to that object.
He would be happy to communicate in private with
him on the subject, and to facilitate his object by
every means in his power. With respect to the ques-
tion put to him on the subject of Sir John Moore's
dispatches, he regretted that it was not possible for
him to gratify the Hoaourable Member's curiosity.
Those dispatches he considered as private and centi-
dential. They were marked so on the back of the
letter—They were so declared to be in the body of the
dispatch. It was distinctly left to the discretion of Mi-
nisters to publish such parts of them as they pleased,
'or to withhold them altogether. It certainly tvai the
wish both of himself and his colleagues to gratify the
public and the friends of that gallant Officer with ex-
tracts from the dispatches, but they found it so diffi-
cult to select such parts as it would be prudent and
proper to publish, that they were under the necessity
of wholly relinquishing the design. After the letter
relating to the lace event in 'Spain, there was nothing
in Sir John Moore's dispatch necessary to be made
public in the Gazette. Upon mature consideration,
he was convinced that it could not, with any pro-
priety, be brought forward as an insulated produc-
tion. He wished, however, to gratify the friends of
that gallant officer as far as possible. Their object,
he presumed, would be obtained if the dispatch should
become public in any way. He had no objection that
it should 'be produced as part of the correspondence
necessary for the discussion of the conduct of the war
in Spain, though he must still adhere to his objection
of publishing it in the Gazette.
Mr. PONSONEY had no objection to state the
general purpose of his motion. It would be for a ge-
neral inquiry into the conduct of the Government
with respect to Spain, and the manner in which the
campaign has been conducted in Spain. If the Noble
Lord conceived there were any papers that might
render further inquiry necessary, it was within his
discretion to move for their production.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, after what fell from an
Hon. General on a former evening, and what was
known to be the wish of the friends of Sir John Moore,
he had been induced to entertain hopes that certain
parts of his dispatches would be published. At the
same time, he agreed, with the Noble Lord, that it
might be improper they should appear in the Gaztve,
He was happy, however, to hear from him that there
would be no objection to their being produced in an-
other form.
General STEWART stated, that Sir Iola! Moore,
in delivering his dispitches to him, observed that they
were prvate and eonfidentiiil ; but that Ministers
were at liberty to publish any parts of them they
might think proper.
CONSUL. CE!•:ERAL IN PORTUGAL.

Lord FOI.KSTONE wished to be informed if any
salary, payable by Government, was annexed to the
office of Consul General in Portugal, accepted by a
Member of that House ?

Mr. Secretary CANNING stated, that the emolu-
ments of the office alluded to formerly arose from the
Consular fees only. These fluctuated with the cir-
-cumstances on which they depended: They some-
times rose to £4OOO a year ; they were at times as low
as £l5OO. This variation had ltd to an enquiry,
Which terminated in the adoption of another mode of
managing these establishments. It was determined
to add to the salaries of some, and to diminish those
of others, with a general restriction that the persons
filling them should not be permitted to trade. 'Upon
_this plan the Consul-General for Portugal was to be
allowed £l5OO a year, payable out of the Consular
fees, besides a fourth part a the fees exceeding that
sum, as an inducement for activity in collecting them.
If the fees should fall below Al XOO, which was by no
means probable, Government was engaged to make
up the difference.
Mr. TIERNEY wished to know whether it was un-
derstood that the Hon. Member was personally to dis-
charge the duties of office ?
Mr. Secretary C.A.NNINO replied, that there cer-
tainly was no intention that the Honourable Member
should not discharge the duties of his office. He re-
peated that he was to receive no payment in the na-
ture of a salary, except the fees fell short of 15001. a-
year.

THE ERFURTH OVERTURES,
Mr. Secretary CANNING--" I rise, Sir, for the
purpose of moving an Address to his Majesty, thank.
ing him for having laid before this House the papers
containing the Overtures of Negotiation, transmitted
to this country from Erfurth, and the answers return
ed from this country, and assuring his Majesty of the
determination of this House to support his Majesty
in the further prosecution of a war, after his Majesty
found it impossible to conclude that war with honour,
and restore the blessings of peace with security. I
feel, on this occasion„ but little reason to apprehend
great difference of opinion among Gentlemen of this
House. I feel that what is likely to be questioned is
not so much the principle op which we were guided,
as the conduct of Government in the proposed nego-
tiation. Whatever doubts and hesitations may be
felt, I feel confident that no individual will stand up
and say, that by any other conduct that cotfid have
been justified to the House and.the country, the result.
of these communications would have led to negocia-
tions On any admissible basis of a peace. So far in-
deed I lose much of anxiety, and the subject much of
interest. The determination of the enemy must be
obvious to every man. It cannot be shewn that in
the management of these communications any thing
was omitted, or any principles admitted that were
dangerous to our great objects ; nor that any oppor-
tunity was taken or wantonly seized td shut the door
against pacification. Gentlemen may discover grounds
of criticism, but, I am confident, not of blame.—
There is this singularity in my present situation, that
had I been called upon immediately after this transact.
Lion, I should have had to refit to few other topics ;
for is there any body who does not remember what

were then the feelings of the public on this ith'en.
If there was any suspicion of fault, it was ratlerilin
we might have been entrapped into a dangtro.is net
gociation. It was singular that theypwrehvoaltiva:grefilt:ianis
before for negociation, always for ti ids of pen",,,
yet almost universally- concurred, that, in this in
stance, there was no question of the it to dud de:v.
sion. We differed a little from the
and thought that however delusive were the offers
the enemy, lye would ascertain, beyond doubt, the
possibility or a chance •f peace. Had we . &offered
time and opportunity to he gained by the enemy by
protracted negociations, the consequences might have
been extremely dangerous. When I consider the po.
culler circumstances of the time—when I call to rea
mind the state of things under which the meeting .'i-
Erfurth took place, I must confess that it appears t 5
me that there were sufficient ground, to justify Miiiin
ters in expecting something from the joint overtone ;
was it not to be expected that Spain had become a
subject of deliberation in this meeting at El ferth ?
Was it not to be expected, either that its independence
was there acknowledged, or that its deem was then!
scaled ? This opinion was farther strengthened
by the uniform policy of the Court of Petersburg;,,
which, from reasons unnecessary to be here &tailed,
has invariably testified an unusual degree of svitpi.
thy for Spain and Spanish interests. Upon dare!
• rounds, therefore, we were led to presume, that the
Emperor Alexander had remonstrated at Erfunle and
that fiom respect to his remonstrances, and from are
prehension of the consequences, Bonaparte had ban
compelled to humble his lone—to concede 'in some
degree from .his . former pretensions, and to infer
negociation to England and Spain. Let no one iin-
pute to us, that in this expectation' we were not war.
ranted by sound mason. We expected nothing from
the generosity, nothing from the justice of the French
and anssian Sovereigns ; but we expected from the
one some regard to his personal safety, some consi.
deration of his selfish interests, and we expected
from the other, his characteristic prudence in sub-
mitting to circumstances. Ministers, therefore, were
not without hopes that the overture might lead to
l some successful conclusion. Under this impression
they returned their answer, requiring that the acting
1 Government of Spain, described as• it had describq
itself, acting in the name of Ferdinand VII. should
be included as a patty to the negociation. We did
not, as I before said, demand that
.Spain should be
idnnti tied with England. We did not demand that
she: should be merged in the.eti porsidais of England,
but we demanded for her that consequence, that recog-
nised existence to which as a nation in arms she. was en-
titled. It has been objected by some, that France could
'• not in any way have given this negociation, and that
she necessarily returned her negative. Why could she
return} no aniier answee Cireld not the French GO-
vernment have said, we wilt not recognize the Govern-
ment in a'pain as a preliminary, out we will admit the,
propesal into discussion l. Could not Beinanarte have
repiaal, that he • would reconnize the government of
Sonin, denrncre, an we would, on our part, recognize
its brother as king, de fecto ? There are innumerable
precedents in liiianev, bpth ancient and, modern, of
these admissions i/efarto and zeservatiOns d:jsere. In
the wars of the Spanish succession, the Contedcra.tes
and Louis XIV. repeatedly treated upon this princi-
ple. In the wars of the Netherlands, the Generels
of Philip the Second used their discretion in the same
manner. Nothing, infact, has been more usual than
these reservations of right—than these treaties, found-
ed on existing circumstances, with an annexed stipu-
: lation, expressed in implied, that though admitted, in
fact they should not conclude on the right. The an-
swer of the French Government, however, was very
different ; it not only rejected our demand in favour
of allies, but repelled it in terms or insult. It cha-
racterized those allies as insurgents.. It was now,
therefore, time to terannae the negociation, as
we could not proceed in it without abandoning
our allies—insurgents ! Insurgents against whom ?
—I would ask.—Against Joseph Bonaparte. If
we had• continued the negociation, we must have
sanctioned this. opprobrious name, v.-e mutt net
have only abandoned the interests, but nmst have
extinguished the very name of Spain. And as if his
meaning wanted illustration, or rather that his insult
wanted point, lie would compare the insurgents of
Spain with the Catholics of Ireland. It cannot be
supposed, that in this mention of an opprobious term
I imply even a monientary admisssion of its justice;
but it is necessary to the indignity of my argument to
mark the difference. If the Roman Catholics are re-
bels,- to whom are they rebels ? To his Majesty
George the Third—to -a King both de facto and dr
.-
jure---z,to a Sovereign complete in possession as in
. right. It would be the. extreme point of absurdity,
therefore, in France, or any other Government, to re-
cbgnize such insurgents as an effective party or ally,
.or to demand that they should be to recognized in a
nerciation. But was this the relation of the Spa-
' nish insurgents with Joseph' Bonapair ? Was he
complete either in possession or in right ? Some
gentlemen have been pleased to produce .another
.objection ; that the title of Ferdinand the Seventh was
in itself questionable,' and that it was not ,worth a
contest to maintain it. It is an established principle
1 in political intercourse to acknowledge, that Govern-
meat which we find to exist. We have no right to
into-meddle with the chosen forms of Government,.
or the elected governors of another nation. In our
intercourse with them we must take them as we find
them. All the Provincial Councils of Spain concnr-
red in acknowledging and proclahnini Ferdinand the
Seventh. rknow that we live in times when the,
spirit of innovation.is abroad ; but if we must reform,
let us reform at home; let us not elect ourselves into
the reformers of other nations, and consider them at
only worthy of our contempt, because-they may be a
century behind ps in science and philosophy, because
they may have retained prejudices of which we have
divested ourselves. The memory of the French Re-
volutien is surely not yet so wholly passed from our
minds, as to leave us enamoured of these reforms.—
. ior etinarlanl
operations
inn;
scrnds
For
inconsiderable
lyea t , liberty,
The spirit of innovation, once abroad, is not easily
who shall bound its
thcoanfteisspdrelafetrlehxoisltd.
°dlrvileladpa't,ant, and that
exist-
in and known evils to such as are possible and
unknown. We took up the cause of Spain as
tathtiea,kathndatstthilel reforms.lceauusetoormspp:iln,evea
we found it ; we thought we' had no right to 'dic-,
Nor did we
separated from
her Govninfatent, so bad as it has pleased some Gentle-
men in other debates to represent it ; Spain bad at

cap
one gr_•,,(l cause--she. was figlajog far lA* ca..;
,he
ca.
was fighting against an invader. In a eoentrf
ike this, it must be unnecessary to argue that there
s sentiment which attaches us to the mere
ial,l3:l7lrfui
to that what is called our, country is dear tous
lor no other reason, than that it is our country
represented, n
Spain indeed wouldbeas contemptible as she hai
sented,if her feelings had not revoked from her
iov;i..l • as such, if she had wanted any other cause
er
than glut foreign invasion of her soil. This attach-
t to country, as such, has ever distinguished every
civilized society • it has raved survived conquest itself.
There is another accusation brought against Ministers,
wl. II is, that our tone is too high for our sitilation,
ac
that we are are a sinking country, and that nothing
on save us from perdition. As a person in a ship is
; ce, sible to the motion of that ship, so I must sup-
4-„lit is with me, for I must confess that I am not sen-
r. ofdegradation of the country. I cannot per-
tble the
‘„ide myself that we are so degraded. If we 'are
however, I trust that one of the last qualities
of which we shall divest ourselves—one of the last ar-
ti,i,:s which we shall throw overboard in the hopes of
our burthen, will be our honour and good
ghtening
;iith. Mr. Canning here concluded, by. moving an
Address to his Majesty, expressive of the approbation
dale House, that bis Majesty had put an immediate
err to
the Overtures as soon as the enemy had refu-
sc.l to admit the acting. Government of Spain as a
arty te the NeEoßEcia.A.Dtion.
m. WHIT begged leave to deCline en.
teraig at large into the nature of the allusions of in-
dividuals on the subject of .the late negotiation, al-
tli ugh be retained all the sentiments which he had
ever expressed on that subject ; and he could not help
lamenting that they had not been more attended to by
thou who had power to give them force by their
adqnion at that period. I he Right Hon. Gentle-
man, in the course of a speech certainly replete with
eloquence, had said some things, which, if the prin.
eiple of them had been followed sixteen years ago,
Europe would not be in its present state, :he Houk:
of Bourbon would not have been overthrown, Bona-
Fare might have remained in the obscurity in which
be eas born, and this country might have been in a
sate of glory, the like. to which had never yet ap-
tnred in any empire upon earth ; for the Right
132.111. Gentleman had said to-night, that whatever
Gwernment a Nation chooses, and presents to you
h: herself, that Government you Are bound to take.
we had but followed that principle sixteen years
the world might have been now at peace. But
remembered the time when that doctrine was
ntained in the House of Commons, it was received
those who were in power at that time (and who
:intimately always succeeded in convincing a ma.
ity of the House), not only with disapprobation,
they held up those who maintained it as per-
hostile to the interests of their country ; upon
tick we were hurried and precipitated into a war,
object of which not only was never gained, but
I been reversed ; and, from the dangers of which
country is not free at the present moment. He
' with the Right Honourable Gentleman en-
„ and wished to HEAVBN the country had acted
in that principle sixteen years ago ; it was indeed
t'ic.,•.l,ble how much bloodshed might have been
2d by it—he meant the principle that we had
Jung to do with the choke of any nation in its Go-
; what could it be to us whether the Spa-
lite, ra-'i.c had A predeliction for Ferdinand the VII.
f,,:. 12-:,11-1:s tit; IV. ; and therefore the Right Hon.
tienhe VW: properly, laid down a principle
irh ann.eies to this—we will support Spain in the
salt cause, ii ,der the Government and neder the.
of I ::rdinand the VII. instead cf,. Charles
. because we, hot because the Spani.sli
Ferciinand VII. to Char'le's IV. He
cred ent!r,:tv of those sentiments of the Right
iurabie Gentleman, and could not help observ-
that the wedd had at present Much 7o deplore,
:count of these sentiments not having been acted
511:iCen years ago. He agreed also with the
3 lion. Gentleman, tht t, after the answer which
:cur:led to us tr;-m Erfurth, evhich proposed that
hid ne::•ociate without Spain, further intercourse
trance on that stiyct, was out of the question.
they had said 44 70U must abandon Spain," it
absolutely impossible for us, with honour,
the Lelara:ion we hid made, to proceed one
ii tier in such a negociation ; but, although •
most clearly of -that opinion, he could
•1? observing, that the tone of the Dispatch
Right houourable Gentleman (not proceed-
from himself of course, but from
A:ler:l:eat of which he was only a Member)
ft ci that species of arrogance which was
11"c,y to provoke a haughty return ; for the
o:c of the. affairs of Statei possessed the
leei:r.gs as private individuals, and harshness
hanlinecs. And here he could not help
vales of the language of the Right Hon.
:roan hit Session of Parliament—that we
i;l,:craizi..date ourselves to the order of things
•`l' was an excuse for what we were then doing,
''' . steed much in need of the doctrine
E'd by such a sentence, to keep our conduct in ,
And yet the Right Honourable Gen-
"' ••is official language, had described the
bo:laparte towards Spain as amparalleled
of nations. 'lbis was pretty bold in us
had done with respect to Denmark.—
and so had the other nations of
r.SGreat to the late Catharine of Rus.
• ;e s in some respects it was not inappro-
_ • ~ne Frederick the 3d of Prussia had, by
.!.nat of mankind, obtained the title of
• successor, and our then ally the Ern-
•":.ria, as well as the Empress of Russia,
rile Poland between them, and to imprison
had yet we talked of the conduct of 80.
• ',.iy-qralleled in the history of nations ! We
around us before we indulged ourselves
~gojicent expressions—we should look at
coilduct in India, and perhaps we might
Parallel to almost any atrocity whatsoever!
e.,1 look to the conduct of those Powers
Nve were afterwards most friendly Allies,
•e'• in the North of Earle, and there we
prallels to the atrocity of Bonaparte.
hok to our own conduct in the East,
should find a parallel to the conduct of
_ W.: should look to the conduct of the
,
hernselves in South
.America, and there
.!"'d ~itrccities that were a parallel to the
BoaLparte. If we thought that Paola-

~:e nigh,
which was, that we should leave him to make what
terms of peace he can obtain. He thought that we
had lust a good opportunity to assist Spain when Jo-
seph Bonaparte fled from Madrid, for at that period
he. believed the Spaniai ds to have been more hostile
to the views of Bonaparte, and much more likely to
have thwai ted them, than they are at present. He
saw no pace in the reannar in which we appeared
to wish to aid' ROMAII Catholic superstition in Spain,
while we were denying to the Catholics of Ireland
the common rights of citizens. He lemented that
the Right Fiore Gentleman did. not find it agree-
ahle to his colleagues, that he should do justice to
his own feeliegs by 72 dmi:ting the Catholics into a
participation of rights with ourselves ; nor WAS it a
thing to he admixed tha: there is now a person who
has taken the oath of a Privy Councillor (that is, an
adviser of his Majesty) who stands in a situation which
must he very discouraging to the Irish Catholics, for
he had declared that 44 an Irishman and a Rebel are'
synonymous terms." He owned it appeared to him
most extraordinary that those very men, many of
whom we had lately been thanking for the battles
they had been fighting for us, should still be deprived
of some 'of the common rights of Citizens. He trusted
that this subject would be brought before the House
in the course of the present Sessions. With regard to
,the conduct of his Majesty's Government towards
Spain, he admitted they did not appear to be guided
by that selfishness which bed directed their. actions'
with other powers ; butehey were much too sanguine,
and had acted upon wrong information, and gross
misrepresentation. As to Yertugal, he might fairly
anticipate the recapture of that country by the French
—and as to the expeditions which were now- sending'
out, he did not thee mean to ask for any information
on the subject, but .recommended to his Majesty's
Ministers not to send out any more. expeditions to
Spain, until they should have-better information of
the views and intentions of the people of thet country.
—He concluded by moving, as an amendment to
the Address, " That this House having taken into
their most serious consideration the papers, &c. laid
by his Majesty's command before this House, relat-
ing to the overtures for peace from the two Emperors
at Erfurth, it does not appear to this House that any
such disgrace • was attached to this country in the
abandonment of the Spanish cause, so as to prevent
the entering into such negociation that the proposi-
tion for including the Junta of Government in the name
of Ferdinandl. in such negociation, was unwise
and impolitic ; and that decisive steps ought to have
been immediately taken for entering into a negoeia-
don which might uphold the interests of the empire,
and the glory of his Majesty's Crowti."
Mr. PONSONBY said that it was impossible, from
the -reat respect he bore his Honourable Friend,

apt.. gt.
Gentlemen were nit pitied to give-theii'oPinions,
end defiver their sentiments- on every petit that was
in any way connected with the question; or Materially
coticemed the welfare and interests of the country.
His Hen. Friend hadtherefore, he -conteived; a right
to speak on the 'subject of the Catholics of Ireland; as
they had been particularlV mentioned and 'alluded
by Bonapeyte. lie perfectly coincided in opinim
with his Honourable Friend who moved the amend-
ment on this motion for an address, and would with
him think it right to listen to trutlieven in in enemy.
For whatever might be the generatopinion entertained
by Hon. Members en either side of the. House, as to +
Bonaparte's merits, he believed it must on al; bands
be agreed that he ew perfectly well howl° accom-
plish the aims tend ends he ha in view,-and as he had
chosen to give a taunt on thOratirs of Ireland, it was
evident he had done so, because he thought the Ro-
man Catholics believ'ect themselves to be hardly dealt
with by this government ; and he would <n ftr take
a hint from him as to advise his Majesty's MinisteYs
to lose no time in endeavouritig to remove those anxie-
ties and animosities which unforitmately existed be-
fore it should be too late. Having Made nese ob-
servations, he should beg to say a few words on the
subject of the modem then before the -House. For
his own past, front the first mention of -the applica-
tions of the Spaniards to this country for assistance,
he could never place any reLance on Spanish pa-
friotisin. He could not think' it was a. plant, that
could ever thrive in such a soil as Spain, lei& lad.
for such a Length of tithe groaned under -theWitight
and grasp of the severest despotism„ headed by Mit
mast dreadful and intolerable of all meststiers-;.:thit
disgrace to humanity, and terror of mankind:43e In-
.qualuon. He never could suppose, that a: spsppile so
sunk in indolence as the great mass ofthe Spant.. na7
Lion had been, and bowed down by the arbitrary man.
dates of one of the most despotic Gbverntnents in Eu-
rope, for more thad a centery, count aC once; become
so sensible ot sbeardour of patriotism, as to enabk them
to make a stand against the French, headed by one of
tbe nblest.and greatest Generals the world had ever
known: He could not, therefore, ever indulge the hope
of reaching+ that fool's paradise, with the attainment
of which the people 'of this country had for the last
fifteen yeprs beet pleased to flatter themselves. He
was sorry to observe this self delusioncontinued still so
prevalent ; but he hoped yet that we were not such
as the wise man had described, al that ifpounded-in a
mortar, yet would not foolishness depart from us." Mi.
Tinters had from time to time held out various boasts,
hat we were on the pointofarriving at the goal ofsuccess,
but they had all vanished into air. If the question were,
whether it would not be desirable to cut off Spaifrom
France as a political measure, no question coed be
held out that would be More easily or more unani.:

that be could 'differ from him, as he did on the pre-
sent occasion, without assigning his reasons for so dn.
ing. Although he seldom approved of the conduct
of his Majesty's Ministers, yet he thought they were
right upon this occasion to come to an ammediate

mously decided ; but the urtftirtunit; devotion hich
had so long prevailed in Spain made this' impossible ;
and. the people of That country felt too severely its,
effects to be animated *Rh that kind of ipitit, with.
out which such an at must be preixitterotts! t 'he
•

cl-rstanding of the views of those powers which pro-
posed pace. He was convinced that no tone, how-
ever moderate, could have procured the country a
peace consistent with its ; but still, he disap-
proved extremely of using that stile in diplomatic car-.
respondence, which seemed much like the lan-
guage that was often used in that Woritetse, against pa

•
Right Honourable A (Mr-Carmine had. to
*serve his own ptwpoio that fright, used the patriotic
axiom ;hat no peopli.aght to have i Government
foreacken them but *Wt they chose for tbestselvea.";.
If *is had heed =teak. to -by tiatittersiTthe cam-
nienceinent of the French Revolution, we should not
have been at war at this sassasat. He wished, bow:

•
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impibinourthearkeirectln 4ippOpskeattdoetli:Deciii)uberseugtilitti 4ashVates saistribi ft*, 1/111.141.0ri - 005411**orr to 1114 46"• ,
it wciedd weevienk thiatrocities ct. see- nation,- and'' ratteirhich bate itgieatisation negbcieting *out I *Om 'Damper* thit .would endestakio46 d-
"ilk with retributive jtiatice the lniqUities of another. ';
the s'estOretiOti sof peace to the evorkl. The question ' rivir OE4O from nragmutiMity. Aro eieesee
cnmesifevje thtmghtto answe:llafit:hiSPltovncitionucrjemes nod henid ; sigiSPeiti iras not to be decided by negotiation, but stood there were BulletineneegYarrivedirott rrance,
"we deceived mereiljrby the farce of.arms,farßoeaparte had pleged and in Poisossion of 'Ministers, in which Salami 'rte :
hurshkes, and theiruth was not in us."—(A mild. Mtn" Is strongly to his own. Bengt, aniFteTrance, hatto*l' jd ;great degree,of respect and admifltion
He did not wonder. at the smile which some gentle. that he would ?lade the CroWn of Spain on the head ',of thebeltairiretr.andconduct ofOur brays troops, .
men were pleased to indulge at that expression• but of hishrother, as this country could, be' pledged to as- ! porilcularly of' the gallant Geneva'. Who hid he " •
he confessed, that he 'was struck with the denjolicitp silt Spain: ke could not be expected inuuediately, cently fallen, and whose loss we had so heavily to
and the force of that sentence, which he was at liberty to abandon the pledge he had 'so . openit and so re- ; p_lame. He was, however, much afraid that the' pre,
to say, because it was not his own; andhesaidivi given,cenllyneither could this countryabandon Spain, snit -Ministers were such as were by no means fi ed
a view .of making us look at things as they are in without at the same time abandoning her honour to brit's. the country With honour out of its preseue
themselves, not as theymight be painted by our fancy; and her best interests. I difficulties. He thought they had taken upon therti
then should we see,that although we are rich andpower- MaCROAKER said he wis astonished to hear such . a most extensive and tremendous responsibility.
ful at home,yet abroadvie were become comparatively- arguments as those which had been used by the Ho- the rutsumed 'patriotism of the Spaniards had )c.itl
insignificant, While the whole of Europe was now ; nourable Gentleman who spoke last but one (Mr. listenedto,takenup and acted onupnn light grounds,he
under the direction of Bonaparte. He then proceed.. Whitbread). If he had found a parallel for the atro.,; did not know any punishment that could be too sew ?re.
ed to observe on the correspondence on the occasion cities of the French in any proceedings of this coon- for them: It was their duty to consider well-whether
of the overture from Erfurth, and thought much try, which be did not think was possible, he believed they would be able to take possession of .Speie ;
of the language of the Right Honourable Gentle- the Honourable Gentleman would find it difficult in to send 500,000 men thither to gain possession of the
man highly censurable, especially that studied insult the annals of the British Legislature to find a paral- country, and to fortify the passes. If our breve sob'.
which was offered to Bonaparte in the last dispatch lel to his own speech. He had owned, he expected -diem had been sent even in such numbers as to enable
to the Count Romanzow, by which he was remind- to .be in a very small minority, and in his opinion the them to have gloriously fallen in the field, and- not the
ed, that we looked upon him as a person whose power Honourable Gentleman ought to be to ; for if the victims of disease and misery, it would have been
was not to be acknowledged in any shape. This, he House should agree to his amendment, they would some small matter of consolatien, the:JO pesheas nee
thought, could answer no good purpose, but might shew themselves not only the o sinking nation" he of excuse ; but to send an army in such numbers,
produce very bad effects, and it came with a very had described, but absolutely sunken to such a degree and under such circumstances, that withohe assistance
ill grace from those Ministers who had acknowledged 'as he hoped never would be the case of this great and of the Spaniards, they could not drive the Frenza
Bunaparte as First Consul of France in The Treaty of , powerful country. He said Ministers had done wisely from Spain, when they did not amount to more rhea
Amiens ; and that was the case of the Chancellor of in getting rid of the Negociation in the speediest man- , 40;000 men, the present Ministers were neither lit to •
the Exchequer, who held a considerable office under nor possible. As to what the Honourable Gentleman fgo on with the management of the affairs of the
Government at that time ; and therefore he could (Mr. Whitbread) had observed respecting the Ro- country in war or peace. They had grafted the suc-
not help recommending to the Right Honourable j man Catholics of li:dand, he said, Bonaparte, in his cess, the character and the honour of England on
Gentleman (Mr. Canning), to refrain from that sar- !declaration respecting them, meant nothing further that rotten plank, despotism and she
caste style, which, although it might be evidence of than merely to exasperate one party against the other. and unless we could again establish that governmeat
a lively fancy, was ill-suited to the graxity of a The Hon. General MATTHEW spoke very lin Spain, our efforts were freitless, and we must give
statesman ; for 'although it might please a few of his warmly in favour of the Roman Catholics of Ireland.', it up. With respect to sending money to the Spa-
own friends, it must be a great blemish in the opinion He alluded to the proceedings in Ireland in the year niards, instead of doing so from the pockets of the
of the judicious, and by no means well ph4ced when 1798, and said there never had been any tyranny , people of this country, they should have restored
it appeared in diplomatic correspondence; and there- carried to a higher pitch than under the British Go- , those millions which had been taken as dreits of
fore, he should have thought the observations of the veinment, when headed by Lord Camden. assisted by , the Admiralty, by the shameful capture of the Spa.
Right Hon. Gentleman on the whim:idea: might have the Noble Lord opposite to him (Lord Castlereagh), nish frigates, witiiout any declaration of war, and
been very well spared. He thought we could not pro- they foot provoted the people to resistance, and then by that means put into his Majesty's private purse.
fit much by accusing our adversaries with insincerity murdered them.—(4 &ecru/ rey of Order, Order.) IHe felt himself obliged to his Honourable Friend fir
in their dispatches in negotiations for peace, for we The SPEAKER seid, he thought it his duty to ;having moved the amendment to the address, but he
had not only been insincere ourselves, but we had the ask the Honourable Mernbqr if he thought what- he ; should have been much_ more pleased, if, instead of
political profligacy to avow it ; of this there were
,was then saying was at all applies:lsle to the question that amendment, he had at once boldly brought for-
more instances than could be easily enumeratedes— before the House? j ward a remonstrance to his Majesty, stating the inade-
Axemarkable one was, that of a declaration made by General MXFTHEW answered, that etleos had I citiacy of the present Ministers to fill the important
my Lord Melville, who had publicly said, that we spoken about the Roman Catholics of Ireland, and j stations in which they had been placed, and he would
had had a lucky escape by the breaking off of the heiLed nn equal tight to do :he same, unless one side ; have seconded it'*ith infinitely more satisfaction. He
Negociation. He .did not speak personally or the of the House was to be indtii:!ed in speaking on the , was now called on for an Address of Thanks, when
Right Honourable Gentleman, but generally of Go. subject, &end not the other. - [Here was a general cry he had no thanks to give. He should rather wisinto
vernment ; and he was bound to say, that our Nego. of Order, Order! Chair, Clia.r.j see those removed from hisdidajesty's councils who
ciation had been carried on, not in the true spirit of , The SPEAKER said, that after what lie had be- I had kept the truth from his royalears, and filled them
negociation, which was that of a conciliatory spirit, fore obServed, it was for the House to determine how with fables which had operated as a 4.6 leprous distill-
'but was carried on in a spirit of hostility and rancoui , farahe,Hon. Member was right or otherwise. ment" on the honour and interests of the empire.—
by which, while it is indulged in, Peace will be unat- . Sir F. BI RDETT said, he had never vet deliver- Of all those' dethroned monarchs with whose fate ,
tainable. He did not by any means disapprove of the ed his sentiments en this subject; and as_lie had not modern history was so replete, there was not one of
care which we had taken of the interests of Spain in the tormed the sanguine hopes on the state of our con- them who had not fallen, a sacrifice to a concealment
late Negociation, but saw no reason why we had not nexion with Swim which he understood many personslof the truth from them, respecting theii most impors
appeared equally anxious for the fate of Portugal, for had done, he could not suffer the present question to land
and vital interests. They have all been betrayed,
the House of Braganza had a much stronger claim go to a vote, without delivering his opinion on it. and frequently deserted by time-serving courtiers end
,
upon our solicitude, and upon our aid too, than the He had at all times the greatest deference .for tne adulating sycophants, and happy would it be if their
House of Aqui ins. As to Sweden, we should not Speaker's judgment, but he submitted to his consider- I fate should be a warning to others. The Right Ho-
mention it, after What the Right Hon. Gentleman had ation, whether on a question of Addresses, which he I,nourable Secretary (Mr. Canning), had said he dil
said on the first night of the Session, the substance of had always looked upon as a • general subjettO Hon. j not think this empire was sinking. The Right Hon.

Gentleman might, perhaps, himself be tiling, bat
he could assure him his country was sinking very fast
and very deep, yet strange it was to behold ; but
things were represented totally different to *hat they
really are.; and we now, without surprize, hear the
mere entrance into a country termed conqueit, and
retreat represented as victory. With these impressions
in his mind, he heartily concurred in the amendment
propoied by his Honourable 'Friend; but would much
rather it had been a remonstrance.
Mr. J. C. BERE'3FORD spoke at some length in
favour of the conduct of Nliaisi.ers, anti thought they
had acted right in as speedily as possible getting rid
of the negotiation. Engiand's only daoger would he
a peace with France ; tor such an event would only
be a virtual surrauier of England. • France cooly
never injure us without a superior navy ; and that
without a fallacious peace she could never obtain.—
He should therefore vote for the address.
Lord POR.CriESTE.R disapproved the 'amend.
went, particularly the latter part, which so emrhati-
cally required his Majesty to avail himself of any re-
; turn of opportunities for a negotiation of peace. HI
thought peace desirable, but unless we wished 'to re-
; peat that act of political imbecility, the Peace of
Ameins, we should not appear too anxious for that
I event. As long as Spain could maintain the present
contest, we could not, he thought, honourably with.
draw our assistance. He should therefore vote for
the address. ,
. Lord HENRY PETTY said, it was nnnecessar
for him to trouble the House with many ob,ervationc,
because it was clear the alarm had taken pi ice in the
country since the successful escape of our army. He
must, however, shortly say on what ground he felt it
hii duty not to concur in the amendment of his Ho.
nourable Friend, with whom he generally agreed on
political questions. He was convinced from
ence of the conduct of Bonaparte, that the overtures
made at the time they were, could not 'be accepted
without an abandonment of Spain ; for if it had been
entered upon, it would have induced the Spaniards to,
suspect/ our sincerity in.their must, and Bonaparte
Iwould have used it as an argument to foment that
suspicion. This country had a character to gain with
I respect to Spain, and it was therefore necessary we
I should convince the Spaniards we did not carit,itw
the war for our own selfish interests. He thought, .
therefore, the overtures for negotiation should be'ai.
speedily rejected aspossible. e could not, however*,
approve the language in which they had been clout;
for the retort used by the Right Honourable Secret,
must by the two Emmors be taken as matter" of iusuk
and as the Right I•ciorable- Secretary had allowed
the overture was not -liable to exteptien, his Lon!,
ship saw no reason why it -should not have been met
on equal terms of conciliation. If the latter part of

the Address meant that we should continue at war in
the same way it had been carried on for the last six
months, he should
.protest against it. He was not
surprised the state.of the country should have ed
the:Honourable Baronet to describe, in ay. of

great eloquence, the alarm which he conceived, and
he concurred with him in those sentiments which he
had so fully expressed.
Mr. CANNING expressed treat surprixe drat the
Noble Lord should have adopted, in the unqualified
manner he had done, the opinions of the Hon. Baronet
wishlespect tq the situatioh of the cougar,. which

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