Star.
London, England, 1801-06-06 00:00:00

as the grit Min in the kingdottl-.-thei;elTeiti
sand protection ot the laws. He could not perfuade
ihimfelf that that Houfe would confent to pats a I
Bill, which had for its foundation to keep from the
world fecret information received by,his Majefty's
Miniflers. Nothing, he raid, in the Indemnity Bills
paffed in the years 1715, 1745, and 1780, bore any
analogy to the prefent meafure. In thofe cafes,
the sills of Indemnity had no reference but to the
immediate caufes; the two former .to the rebel-
lions, and the latter to thole dreadful riots which
certainly demanded ftrong meafures. But the pre-
fent Bill has no period fixed—it is to cover every
thing that has been done by his Majefty's late Mi-
nifters, and proclaims to the world, that the Go-
vernment of England is in loch a hate that it can-
not Rand without the aid of fecret acenfers : that
they have paffed a Bill to fang ion -them ;
contrary to the firit principles of their laws, have
made nien judges in their own caufe. He thought
the Committee, when it recommended the mea-
lure, had done nothing lefs than pronounce a con-
demnation and puni(hment upon a fa of men who
were denied an opportunity of vindicating them-
(elves ; thereby conflituting themfelves Judges,
without 1. vlng heard either party—without hav-
ing examined either the informer or the accufed.
They took it all upon the word of his Majetty's
late and prefent Minifters. He then entered into
a reprobation of the lyftem of choofing by ballot
a let of men avowedly marked out by his Majetty's
Miniflers ; and concluded by an obfervition from
Montefquieii, that the Conftitution mutt
when the Legiflative Body became more corrupt
thls n. the. Executive."

Mr. WINDHAM denied that the objea of this
IBill vas, as the Hon. Gentleman had Rated, to
tirotea men who had done wrong. Its necetlity
*as founded in the very nature of thofe proceed.
, begs to which it adverted. In cafe a fuit Ihould be
commenced againft any of the perfons to be in-
demnified, their juftification mull inevitably de-
paid on the produaion of information, which it
would not be confluent with the ppblic fafety to
' bring forvrard, becaufe it was for the intere ft of the
, public that there fhould be men from whom infor-
r elation could be received. The Hon. Gentleman
•
had obferved, " that in cafes of this kind the pre-
dominance of good ought to be confideredt and
diet the objet of fuch a law fhould be the protec-
tion of innocence, and not the panifhment of guilt."
Confining the application of this maxim to the pre-
- t fubjea, he would fay that it was poflible fome
people might have been committed on infufficient
information, yet the perfons ordering thefe com-
mitments ought not to be expofed to vexatious pro-
ficutions. It ought, in the prefent intlance, to be
left to the Houfc to determine which of thofe prin.
ciples ought to predominate. It fhould be left to
Om Houte to judge how far the power entrufted to
lignifters and Magiftrates had been abuted ; or
tehether they ought to be expofed to prolecution
be cafes where their conduct was right: And even
U. they bad done their duty, would it be proper to
compel them to produce that information, which
it had formerly been declared ought not to be dif-
clofed. But the Hon. Gentleman condemned al-
together this kind of fecret information, and raid a
great deal againft (pies and informers. This was
the conitant theme of complaint from Gentlemen
on the other fide of the Houfe: this praztice was
with them, contrary to the good old times of the.
Conflitution. But thofe Gentlemen never confi.
dered that the times were changed, and that it
would be impoffible to be guided by the maxims
of ancient times in .meeting complaihts which had
never cabled till lately. Was the Houfe, under
the prefent circumliances, to be tied up by ancient
Rice? The Honotirable Gentleman retied all
his arguments on this point, and the' fliort way
of anfwering them was, by alking a Ihort quer-
tion—What precedent was there of any proceed-
ing againft rebellions fuch as exifted in modern
times ? There was a rebellion in this country in
the year 3745: would any man fay it was of the
fame nature with that which was now lurking in
this country ? It was odd that nothing had yet
been gained by the praaice and experience which
pay day was before our eye at with every
ping broken up and deftroyed, an wherethe au-
thors wanted to wipe away every thing with a
lir Ae, any Gentleman Ihould propofe to tie up
oufe by ancient pradlices. When our ene-
mies difregarded the faith pf treaties, when they
ridiculed every thing that had hitherto been held
famed, when they were bound by nothing, was it
a time to talk of precedents ? If the French Kern-
lotion had not produced a change in the world,
ha did not know an event there was fence the Deluge
that did fo. Neitherof thole celebrated authors,Ta.
Otos or Montefquieu, whom the Hon. Gentleman
looted, could furnifh maxims to fuit the prefent
tspi es. If Montefquieu was now alive,he would find
6se theories had but little application to the events
den were going forward. There were many of
the Hon. Gendesnan's obfervations on the con-
ihwaion of the Committee of Secrecy which it
timid be unneceffary to anfwer. As to the Mem-
bers being interefted in the decifion they were to
, he would fay, that they had been appointed
the Houfe not only on account of being the
moft. impartial who could be chofen on fuch
ace ion ; but becaufe they were the molt en-
blend; ; becaufe they.polfelfed the beg loforin-
on the fubjeft they were to inveftigate.
80 that even if they had been interefted, the chan-
nels of information iebith they polklfed fhould
lake the Houfe wiflOthat they might be appoint-
,ed. As to the mode of forming the Committee,
'that was alfo made a ground of charge againft
Illinifters, as if they had fome finifter defign in
(that proceeding. For the credit of the Houfe
ait would not let this part of the objeaions go
without an anfwer ; and he mull at once &f-
-ame, that there was no other way of appoint-
the Committee than that by wbich it wasap-
ured
—namely, by ballot. if the twenty-one
• bets were to hive been
Igoe, wad if in doing fo
roe merits of every
limed, the Ho,
to the end of ."
it necedary to ,
for the credit of

eight not be. ppefed as the laughingltelck of
any SEA in a German univerfity, nor of any Weary;
Zee in the Univerrity of Cambridge. tie did not
think the Wore wmild liayi7 ?died with impar.
tiality if it had chorea thofe who always thought
ill of Minifters. It-was the duty of the Honfe now•
to take the predominance of good, and the good
of the public mull alwayi predominate over that
Of individuals : there were men who had a claim .
on the proteCtion of that Houle. The Houfe was
not laying down a general law tor the future ; but
by giving this indemnity, it was left to future Par-
liaments either to give the fame to others or not,
jug as they fhould think At. There was one ge-
neral opinion that prevailed on the other fide of
the Houfe, which was, a general' denial of the ex-
iftence of danger. How any man could deny that
dangers of the fort be alluded to exifted, aftee
having feen the ruin of Europe nearly accomplifh-
ed by them, was to him incomprehenfible. If
fuels an argument was good for any thing, it
would go equally to prove that no fuch thin{ as
danger had ever exifled in Ireland ; yet many
Gentlemen even in that country at the very time
of danger denied the exigence of it. After fuch
affertions as he had heard, and fuch rafts as he
had witneffed, the Rory of Bays and his army at
Knightraridge mutt no longer he confidered as fa-
bulous. But while Gentlemen were Itre'auoufly
contending that there was nothing like danger in
Ireland, the rebellion born forth on a fuddin in
all its horrors. It was, therefore, the duty of
Parliament, by timely precaution, to prevent a
fimilar event from happening in this country; and
in doing to they were to be guided, not .by the
affertions of Gentlemen on the othei fide of the
Houfes but by eircumbnoes, and by the :Anal
Rate of things as they were. Nothing could be fo
erroneous as the opinion given by the Honourable
Gentleman as to the prefent Elate of the country:
the Houfe had felt differently, and the Report of
the Committee was a reprefentation of the judg-
ment of the Houfe ; anti if the gotta, 'after hav-
ing trußed men with great power's, were to exports
them to perfecution, it would hi doing an irrepa-
rable mifchief to the country: becaufe it would be
expofing the names of pertonf from whom infor-
mation dill continued to be received, and who, in
fpite of all that had been laid againft fpies
s in-
formers, were highly ufefut and necelfary. On
the_CF grounds he would furport the Bill.
Mr. HORNE TOOKE in riling to refill the farther
progrers of the Bill, profelfed himklf divefted of
every particle of perfonal animofity or rancour to
the late Minilters, though few perfons had ex-
perienced greater. oppielfion and injuftice. He
was the more readily inclined to (Peak on the pre.
Galt occafion, as he could (peak candidly and kind
of tome of thole who were at the head of Admi-
naftration. He did not believe that the principal
leaderi of the prefent Adminilltation would fol-
low the condua of the late Minifters. Perrone
detained under the fufpenfion of the Habeas Con;
pus Aft had, owing, if not to the interference, at
kart to the negldt of the late Minifters, been•ex-
pored to the molt atrocious truelties. The pre-
fent leaders of Adminiftration, front all the in-
formation he Rad collated, were. determined to
prevent even the poffibility of the renewal of fuch
enormities. Thole now apPrebendedi.he believed,
were fairly kept in cuftody, were treated with that
humanity due to their fituation, and had no rea-
fon to complain of cruelty. The prefent Bill he
confidered as the brief of the Honourable and
Learned Gentleman who had introduced it, and
his fee would, he doubted not, be found in the
Treafury (eery of order). . Mr. Tooke was at a bole
to conceive how he vies in this initance deficient
in order, and he was convinced he would be able
to make it bear precifely on the queftion before
the lloufe. He had been acquainted with politi-
cal events for 40 years, and during that petiod no
lefs than so peerages had been- fhowered down
upon the bar, and in the fame face different Ad-
miniftmtions had In their liberality fhowered down
on the fame body ten millions of the public money;
there faele.he mentioned in defence of the Right
Honourable and Learned Gentleman, who, like
others, teas only fiefit and blood, and as fuch,
equally
.liable to be overcome by fo powerful a
temptation. On si late occafion the Houle teemed
to him to be feized with an unneceffary panic,
when they fuppofed the introduCtion of a few cler-
'Olen would taint the purity of their order; but
though he thought the panic groundlefs, he could
not but approve their defire of preferving their in-
dependence. He wilted to profs on the Houfe the
propriety of receiving with a proper degree of jea-
loufy the reprefentations of what were denomi-
nated legal authorities in the Hoek: He re-
membered a celebrated Lawyer (Sir William
Blackftene), having defended a meafure in that
Houfe ; on which occafion a pupil of his own read
from his notes an opinion direttly the reverfe,vrhich
that Lawyer had delivered at his lettarrs, and
afterwards publifhed in a book. The Houfe af-
terwards declared the meature Which this Lawyer
had defended, to be illegal. There things he men:
tioned to caution the Houfe againß too. Implicit
credit to legal authorities. The fpeech of a Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Windham), teemed
to be received with fuch applaufe that he had little
hope of being able to make an impreffion on the
Houfe againft the Bill. When he heard that affer-
lion of the Right Honourable Gentleman almoft
univerfally applauded, he was almoft inclined to
have left the HOufe in derpaie. It might be allowed
indeed, that there were Come laws adapted to parti-
cular circurn Ratios, to thelNlNge ofwhich no objec-
tion could be f;ormed. But there were others founded
in nature, whole exigence was unchangeable, and
not to be &fretted by any change of circumflances:
The laws of which the Honourable Gentleman
below him (Mr. Grey) had fpoken, were of chi!
defcription. He had contended that the aceufed.
before condemnationhad a right to be Eddy beard
in their defence, and that it is a duty of pare-
-taunt obligationi • from
oPPrea

mely, uy oatuuu u awcinranic
ere to have been Oofen one by mount obligation to'protca innocence from cruelty
in doing fo the Hoofs was to difcufs and oppreffion. There were laws not founded
of every Gentleman who Qiould be alone on pofitive enaftment, but imprinted on the
Houfe would never be abk to get human heart, and permanent as immortal natures
r the bufinefs. This much he thought At this moment he knew act the molt effeetsal
to fay as to the elation by bullot, means of refifting the progrefs of the Bill ; but
of the Houle, and ips order that it if he knew any fair and honourable mode of pre-
.
_ _