Star.
London, England, 1830-06-19 00:00:00

or he might vanish from the earth altogether, and what was then to
become of the security of his promise? The principle of the bill
was not preservation, but destruction. He hoped, however, that the
progress of the destroying angel might be stayed by that house.
Sir ROBERT PEEL said one reason why so little progress wu
made in the business of the Session was--confounding the different
stages of Bills that came under discussion. When the principle of
a bill was under discussion, honourable gentlemen indulged them-
selves in discussion on all the details, and when the stage of the bill
required that only the details of a bill should be discussed, it was
usual to enter into a debate on the principle. The honourable gen-
tleman who began this debate, entered into a discussion of all the
details, though the principle only was the proper subject of discus.
shun. He should not imitate that example, hut confine himself to
the object of the bill—(Hcar, hear.)—The various complaints of
the delay of justice in the law Courts had caused a commission to
be appointed by the unanimous vote of the house. After a
full investigation of the subject, they had made a report, which he
was confident those who now called for further inquiry had not
read ; and they recommended the appointment of three new judges,
and abolition of eight Welch judgeship. This was objected to,
because it was said, that all I% ales cried out against it. He enter.
taints! the most affectionate regard for the Welch character ; but
he denied that the change was adverse to the feelings of the
principality. The commissioners sent queries to several of the
most eminent persons in Wales to learn the opinions and feel.
inga of the Welch on the proposed alterations, and they re-
ceived answers from many that they considered it most de-
sirable that Wales should be included in the English Circuits, and
that suits should commence in Westminster. This he thought
Proved that the Welch were not reluctant to have the administration
of justice in the principality assimilated to that of England, and
government would be negligent of its duty if they did not provide
for the equally efficient administration of law in all parts of the
kingdom. The Welch judicial office was precisely that office
which might be prostituted to the purposes of patronage, and all
those offices government proposed to abolish; and he thought his
hon. and learned friend should be allowed to proceed with the bill,
and lay the details before the house. (Hear.)
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL said, the present bill was no
more like the bill which leave was given to bring in, than one writ.
ten paper was like another the most different. He did not con-
demn the report of the Commissioners, nor did he say that govern.
nsent should not act on it ; but he believed that nine-tenths of the
people of Wales were dissatisfied with the present bill, and he
thought the inquiry should have gone sufficiently far to ascertain the
fact. He did not think the Welch should be deprived of their local
jurisdiction without their consent. He thought the bill should be
printed, and lie over till next session, that it might be fully con.
sidered—(hear.) It was said the bill would diminish the expense
of litigation in `Vales; he believed it would have the very contrary
effect. It would be an extraordinary thing if this bill was to be
passed this session to abolish the local judicature of Wales, and in
the next session his hon. friend the member for Knaresborough's
(Mr. Brougham) bill were to pass to establish local jurisdictions in
every county in England and Wales. That would be to legislate
for demolition one session, and for reconstruction the next. The
bill was so crude that it was impossible to understand it, and no ex-
planation was ever given ; or if it was, it was that twilight expla.
nation between three and four o'clock in the morning, when it was
neither understood by him who gave nor by him who received it.
Ile felt himself called on to legislate in the dark, and therefore he
must fear injuriously, and should oppose the bill.
Col. WOOD said he should vote against several clauses of the
I bill, all those for uniting counties, and for enabling sheriff's to act
for more than one county. He had communicated with all the
gentlemen of Brecon, and found them almost unanimous, that the
time was come, when the Welch jurisdiction should be assimilated
to that of England. The commissioners had made inquiry on that
point of 311 persons, the most likely to form a correct opinion in
Wales, and 27 of them had given an opinion in favour of assimi-
lation of the Welch jurisdiction with that of England.
Mr. O'CONNELL said, that our law required reform was ad.
mitted by all, bat reform and abolition were different things. The
present bill did not profess to make law intelligible; and it did not
render it less expensive. The Court of Common Pleas tried but
few causes compared with the King's Bench, and the Court of Ex.
chequer scarcely did any thing. These courts, trying causes at the
rate of the Court of King's Bench, could dispose of thirty thousand
additional causes in three years, and they should be fully employed
before new judges were appointed. At present there might be
execution in Wales in fifteen days;—pass this bill, and it might
take as many months. The bill did not affect to make law
cheap. The expense of law was a crying evil. The Government
would abdicate its duty if it allowed its subjects to be robbed
in the streets by ruffian violence; and what difference did it
make if his pocket was picked by seeking fur justice in the Courts
of Westminster Hall? He thought that this was one of the worst
attempts at law reform he had ever witnessed. He was no advo.
cate for the present abuses of the Welch system having their judges
practising barristers ; but that was to be easily remedied by dimin.
fishing their number and increasing their salaries. Should not some-
thing be done to break down the absurd opposition between our
Courts of Law and of Equity ? There was a wide field for law re.
form, and the people cried out for its adoption. Ile opposed the
bill, because it increased the number of judges without necessity,
and abolished, instead of reforming, the local jurisdiction of Wales.
Mr. WILBRAHA3I hoped that the county of Chester would
still retain the advantages It had hitherto possessed.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL trusted, that though he were
to admit the assertions of the hon. and learned Member for Clare,
that the law of England was of the worst possible description, still,
on that account, he ought net to be debarred from bringing in the
present measure because it was partial. Matters were not ripe for
the revolutionary changes of the hon. and learned Member. There
was one point he could not let pass, although the speech of the hon.
baronet (Sir R. Peel) had left him but little to say, and that point
was one of economy ; he begged to tell the hon. member, that by
the old system the expense of law in Wales exceeded that of all
England put together ; so that what the hon. member calls cheap
justice was dear justice. He trusted that the Bill would be allowed
to lito into committee.
Sir J. OWEN said, he had not heard a single reason urged that
could induce him to support the motion before the house.
Mr. W] NN supported the motion.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion
Against it

Majority .....
The house then went into committee on the bill, several clauses
were agreed to, and the house reported progress, with leave to alt
again.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of.
Adjourned at a Quarter part Two o Clock.