Star.
London, England, 1825-05-18 00:00:00

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led to political ?osier. *hammer could be done
satisfy them within those limits aught to be "done. The)
bad the free exercise of their religjon, but if they wished
for additional -protection for it, Parliament should be,
—.Judy to grant it. They enjoyed all the rights and ad-
- vantages of property ; but if they required minor regu-
. lotions to make that property more secure, those regu-
lations shcioid beinade. As to the Army and the Navy
they buttOng since been thrown open to them. Be:'
Tond this it would not be prudent to go. But the pre-
sent Bill gt anted everything leading to political power,
with no other exceptions than the Chancellorship of
England and the Lord Lieutenancy of Ireland, without
Rising the smallest security in return. The Noble Lord
then examined some of the publications of Dr. Doyle,
and pointed out their general hostility to the Church of
England. - He quoted the oath taken by Catholic Priests
and Prelates, to shew that they bound themselves to
disclose. the Pope's counsel to no man. He argued
from the sentiments of the most enlightened modern
authorities of the Catholic Church, even of Bossuet him-
self, that its spirit of exclusion and domination was
Dot changed. He objected to establishing a perpetually
endowed Catholic Church in this Kingdom, and to
the mode of election and appointment of • the Bishops.
The Catholics denied to the King of. England toe privileges which
every Catholic Monarch in Europe possessed, and which they
themselves bid no objection of confiding to him as King of Han-
over! The Noble Lord then alluded to the formation of establish-
ments In various pane of the country by a Society which had been
banished from the dominions of most Catholic Princes, and which
was gaining large possessions without law, if not against the law.
In other countries the despotism of the throne counteracted the
dons of such a Sodety; but hers the equality of rights which
presaged, left it free to act. As to securities, the best was to pre-
vent panicipation in political power, and the surest way of
emsocipating Ireland would be to remove the extreme subdivision
and underletting of land In that country. The Noble Lord. after
tailing upon the House not to discontent a large proportion of Pro-'
testants by passing the present measure, concluded by moving that
the Bill be read this day six months.
The Marquis of ANG LESEA had hoped that every
toneession made to the Catholics would have excited
in them a corresponding feeling of conciliation towards
their Protestant brethren. He bored they would have
shewn a-patient and meek spirit ; but owned that he
had been disappointed. Every concession had only
produced gteater demands, and a higher tone, and
judging from the language of the late Association,
Emancipation was not meant as a mere release from
disabilities, but as a mean to obtain the ascendancy in the
country. Here he would take his stand. If thee must
he a trial of strength, be would wish to fight it in the
best position- which he could find, arid none was so
good as that in which the country now stood. Yet he
*as a sincere friend to the Catholics, and would wish
to place them on a f oting with their fellowonthjects,
but it must not be at the expense of Protestants. With-
out proper guarantees, he could not consent tie grant
Emancipation, and the present Bill did not appear to
him to offer such guarantees. If he understood it
tightly, he did not object- to the prierciple, *either
should he object to the reulation of the Elective Fran-
chise, nor to a provision for the Catholic Clergy. Wire
Mote tart Kng and Government, however, to pay the
Catholic Clergy,wtthout having any right to interfere in the appoint
'atilt of Bishops? The sacrifice thciuld not be all on one side, and
concessil-ns shosaid be mutuaL Hassid to address their. Lordships, he
bad only wished to explain the graunds on which he should give his
eote.and his cooviction of the necessitywhich now existed,to support
Ow Protestant Establishment and the Constitution of the country.
The Margais of CAMDEN entered into a detailed
itistro y of I.is former views and feelings with respect to
Catholic Emancipation, in order to slew that, although
he had opposed it a hen lie had consideted the period
untimely for pandit.? it, -)'et be had never been hostile
to the principle. He tecollected with satisfactiin that
he was the person who had established the College
of Mayrooth. The Noble Marquis then read several
letters, some written to him in 1795, and one by him
to Mr. Pitt, (Wed the Ist-Of June, 1797. In the latter,
it was stated that the Disseotets of Ireland were at that
period imbued with RepUblican princiees, and the
Catholics discontented, and under those circumstances
ao concessions might to be made as long as things re.
gained so. In other communications afterwards be
had had, in his cbpacity of Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
to give his testimony to the spirit of loyalty displayed
b all classes of . Remo Catholics, when Ireland was.
threatened with French invasion. It was impossible
that it should have been greater. He was one of those
who had thought it their duty, in 1801, to retire. There
had bun an intention, undoubtedly, at the time of the
Union, to place the Catholics on a footing of equality
with the Protestants. But unfortunately, the great
Monster who had conceived that plan, found it imps-
sit* to carry it into effect, and consequently tendered
bis resignation. As a strong degree of expectation had
been excised amongst the Catholics at the time; was it
wonderful, tOet efot e, that there should have been ebulli-
dims of feeling in a country where such disappo nt-
meet had been experienced ? The Noble Marquis thed
examined the late declarations of the Catholics, since
she 'Association bad been put down: their renunciation of the
temporal power of the Pope, the hopes which they bad been eo.,
eltledeo cherish/rani the manner in which the Commons bad taken
up their cause. lie was as sincere a friend to. the Established
C%ureti as any man noddle. ind if he saw are desire to injure it,
ire should be the first to step forward in its defence. But he saw
Ito proof of such a desire, and from the affection which he felt for
Ise tas& although he had known her in convulsion and tempest, he
lisped that the measure would be carried, and thought that there
was we Mew time for pawing it than the present. • •
Earl DARNLEY orgueed,with Iris Noble 'Friend that
this was the time for 'passing the measure, and there
wen many reasons aby it should not be delay ed. He
regretted that his Noble and gallant Friend (the Mar-
t:lona A oglesea) should have suffered the inteml erance
tit language of the Catholic Association to alter his
sentiments on this great qnrstiou. Of all men his
Noble and gallant Friend a ught to be the one least
impressed nith An apprehension of danger. 'He might
eifir find that the position which he had taken
.was an
INltenalt one, notwithstanding _ all his military gal-

.

The effect of *an this am= .1•13141
lingo Psalmist siireeel very worthy sod taloned
dories,. find whaittbe _ts would din be for th4t
Had Mr. Creonn4 bilk brought up in that pure ,rao,
formed religion in which their Lordships were reared;
he should say that a man of his learning and theological
acquirements would not have disgraced the opposite
Bench upon which the R;ght Reverend Prelates of the
Established Church sat. But he knese-net wherefore it
should be said that the call for Enianeirration was
a mere pretence? In the Minute! of Evidence be-
fore. their Lordships' Committee would be i'fognd
the testimony of Mr. Blake, who told them thai he
considered the Protestant Church of Ireland as the
great link which chained England and Ireland to-
gether; that if he thought Catholic Ematitipation
would disturb the Protestant settlement, he 'would
not recommend their Lordships to grant it. He
(Lord. Darnley) therefore gave a flat denial to the
astettion that it was meant to be used.as a stepping-
stone to something higher. So long as property was in
this cr untry the basis of representation, there must be an
inlet ior ity of numbers on the side of the Catholics. The
natural weight and influence of property would always
prevent their outnumbering the Protestants in Parlia-
ment. He was to convinced of this, that if double the
probable numbers were to be the consequence of the
measure, he should still supporili. A Noble Lord had
adverted to the Coronation Oath as a bar to the passing
of this measure. Now he must confess he was sur-
prised that that Noble Lord, or any one, should have
entertained the idea for one moment; that the Corona-
tion Oath obstructed the granting of civil power to the
Catholics, or to any portion of his Majesty's subjects.—
The Coronation Oath, if he tightly understood it, was
directed solely to the maintenance of the Protestant
Establishment, and he did not see how that could inter-
fere with the removal of civil disabilities. Either this
Bill must be passed or a new Pentrl Law. If they passed
the Bill, Ireland would beeofne a tower of strength to
the Empire—a tower raised upon the affections of the
people. If, on the contrary, they kept up this perpetual
blister upon that country, a new army Would be neces-
sary. A triple garrison would be iequisitei they post-
poned the remedy till a period of difficulty and danger arrived.—
They should take advantage of the present time of peace—the op-
portunity might not come again. It should not. be forgotten that
the measure cane'for the second time recommended to them by the
- kept esentatives of the People of this country ; and implored their
Lord-hips to lose no time in acceding to their wisherin this respect:
• ,The Earl of LONGFORD s.id, th -t in Living his
decided oppositi: n to the /treasure he begged to dis-
claim hostility to the Catholics. He 'had no objection
to giving them civil rights, but he could not consent to
entrusting Catholics with political power in a free Pro-
testant country—(Henr, hear).—His reasons were not
founded on the religious tenets of the r-ct, he did not
wish to touch their speculative opinions, and he was de-
termined they should not touch his ; but he abjured the
political consequences inseparable from the possession
of power by that religion. How was it possible for
them to draw. the line of d marcation as to where the
vititoal—whese the political influence began? If not,
the only way was to oppose concessions to the Catho-
lics generally. The Catholic Priesthood were always
jealously and eagerly employed- in quest of political
power, and the power they exercised over the pi ode
was unlienLed. With all this influence the Catholics ye.
fused to submit to that controul which our pill estab-
lishment yielded ; and o hat view were they to takt of
the 'refusal, when they coupled with, it tlia• tact ha' they
admitted of such a controul itsesiliele?—(//eoe, hear).
—lle objected to the preamble of this Bill. It told the
vett); but not the whole truth. It said that the B• 11
was fiir the removal of certain disabilities, it sh 'uld have'
added, 46 and for the investment of ci nun Dignitaries
of the Roman Catholic Church with power, capacities.
privileges, and immuniies."—(llear, hear).—He knew
that there oere amongst the Catholic Laity many dis-
tinguished exceptions to 'the subjection in which some
were held by the Catholic Priests. Bat they were not
there to pronounce ettlogitrms or compliments, but le-
gislate for all parties as far as that could be done.
None should be excluded from power, excepting
those in whose possesaiOn of power there would be
danger. No other Dissenters from the Established
Ittiigion were of the same character as the Catholicsl
in this respect; They regarded the Piotestants as re-
bels to their faith, and despoilers of their property.
Other Dissenters •were voluntary sceders from our
faith, but this was not the case with the Catholics.
They had heard much of the just rights of the Cathe..l
lies; but he denied that they had any title upon th
ground, for justice could never require that they shots's,'
concede the inteiests of the many to the few. There,
had been a kind of threat used upon the score of neces-
sity ; which, if intended as a threat, would, he was
sure, array a great many against the cause—(Hear).
The count' y, tinder her existing institutions, had ao.
ranted to a pitch of prospa it, and glory which had
never been eqUalled ; and the Irish were participating
in that prosterity. -Under these circumstances, they
ought to have adequate proof of the advantages of this
innovation, being somewhat commensurate with the
,risk ohich it was proposed they should incur. It was
said they ought to support this Bill because it came
from the other House. There were many cases in
which that would be a great recommendation ; but
they were now, he thought, called upon to exercise
one of the most use'ul privileges of ttiat House,, in
arresting a pernicious measure in its passage through
tbe Legislature. The Bill was not the work of that
House. but ofa teal. ng, hesitating maim ity, not-amount-
ing to one-twentieth of their numbers. Ought. they
then to pass a Dill which would be irrevocable, nut
'backed by the sense of 'the country, and barely by
the sense of the House of Commons? There would
soon be a Constitutional mod: of taking the sense of
libe country upon this measure; and he doubted not
their Lordships would then see that they were justified in
.
fr

Roman Catholics to the pie AA* require
would be iajurious to the ed Cfrarc.h, his
answer was, worldly advatelagsf,,. had al-cbatens .for
him, he had continued die lid half la century, and
stras ton eid to change. The, Rik= optalon, *as an act plaice
terstaree portion el his hrejesty's ishighs and thirmihin entitled to
hi, support.
Lord CARBRRY opposed.the all. If the Roman Cathdlies
were sincere they could not give the securities the Bill required.
The Bishop of CHESTER said, in whatever point
of view he looked at the Bill, the impression on his mind
was, that it was full of danger to the Church Establish-
thent. He bad always been the advocate of civil and
religions liberty ; but when he became acquainted with
the doctrines of the Church of Rome, and reflected on
the numberless evils inflicted by Popery on the Protest-
ants, he was convinced that the ecclesiastical thunder
was ready to strike when opportunity offered. It might
be said he came to the discussion of that night not an
impartial jade. He came, in the opinion of some
Noble Lords, interested, and that his interest lay in op.
posing the Bill. What right had any one to impute to
the Protestant Bishops of England a base and sordid
intention? Was it interest which induced the seven,
Bishops to oppose the arbitrary proceedings of a Popish
King, and prefer imprisonment to a violation of duty ?.
No! It was honest ambition to defend the cause of
religion and the public welfare ; and he hoped that the
same spirit would animate the successors of those great
men, and that they might stand forward ambitious to
prove themselves• sentinels and champions of the Esta-
blished Church. If disposed to retort, he might say
some Noble Lords supported the measure from tempo-
ral causes attached to themselves, but he should pass
over such insinuations because they did no good. They
had heard a great deal of the injustice of depriving six
millions of fellow-subjects of their rights. What
were thole indisputable rights ? If they had any claim
to the rights contended fcr, those who withheld them
might be justified if they did it for the public good.—
The question was, whether it was wise to exclude a por-
tion of their fellow subjects from political power ? He
could see no political injustice in v ithholding that power.
Civil rights, in that case, were foreclosed by public e*-
pediency. But the most extraordinary fact was, that
the advocates of the Bill who tailed so loudly for civil
rights, had robbed the Catholics of one of the dearest
rights, namely, that of the Elective Franchise. The
Catholics themselves also consented to he expelled from
the office of Lord Hier Chancellor. With respett to
religious opinions, the Roman Catholics were on that
ground disqualified from holding high political offices
in a Protestant Government. Another question was,
whether the danger which pressed upon them was such
as ought to induce the House to venture on a great vio
lation of constitutional principles? He might also ask
whether the proposed Bill, would be the means of paci-
fying the Irish people? The last of these questions
was most important. That unhappy country was suf-
fering under calamity. The extreme distress of the
peasantry and the bad state of society was the cause of
all her misery. The chief proprietors left the soil, and
took from it annually four millions of money. Tenant was
put over tenant, which squeezed from the occupier of the
soil more than the value of the soil ; the state of society
in Leland was not to be cured by the Bill on their table.
It was to he cured' by equitable arrangements, a better
system of Revenue Laws, and, last of all, a return of
the natural proprietors of the soil. That was the
Emancipation Ireland wanted ; it would rescue her sons
from idleness, make industry prosperous, and the people
happy. When these remedies were applied, and the
people improved by education, they might come to
-Parliament, and ask For admission to the privileges
which at present they were not qualified to possess.
Some years since the Roman Catholics began to talk
of Emancipation, which at the present day was under-
stood to mean nothing le.s than the restoration of the
Roman Catholic Church, and the recovery of forfeited
lands. Those who took upon them to direct the Irish
peasantry had concealed from them knowledge which
would have prevented misrepresentation. The object
of those l arties was to establish the Roman Ca-
tholic Church 'en the ruins of Protestantism.—lt
was the policy of men who considered the admission of
lay members of their Church into the Legislature as va-
luable, because it facilitated the recovery of the power
which it had lest, and who deemed anything short of
that admission as utterly worthless and contemptible.
Acturn," inquit, si nihri eit ni Paso shire portal,
Franpimes, et media resilient poise Suborn."
—lt was in strict accordance with the spirit' of the Ro-
man Catholic religion, as it was described in the cele-
brated remonstrance against Popery presented by the
House Commons to James the Firsts—" It bath,"
said they, I, a restless spirit, and will strive by these
gradations; if it once get but a connivance, it will
press for a tolerations if that skould be obtained,
they must have an equality; from thence they
will aspire to superiority, and will never test till
they get a subversirn of the true religion."—
Their Lordships all knew what dangerous notions
were abroad about Church property. They all knew
what the Irish House of Commons did on that subject,
and he might ark what might not be done with thirty or
forty Roman Catholic Members of Parliament moving
in a compact body, like the portentous comer, whose
horrid glare brought pestilence and death? Had they
no ground to fear for the Church property ? No one
could say it would not be in danger. If their Lord.
slsips.were desirous of knowing the sentiments which
animated the Catholic population, they should attend
to their • meetings, and hear their leaders execrate the
Protestant Church. To shew the inflammatory nature
of the speeches made at the Public Meetings, he quoted
a passage from a remarkable speech of Dr. Dromgoole,
which was received with loud acclamations, and which
bad since been published in a book that had been car-
*lid to the Papal thro: e, and had been declared to be
so able and so Catholic, as to be worth a casket of
cedar and gold. In that speech, Dr. Drourgaskii
speaking of the Protestant Church, had said, " Sbt
shall fall, and nothing but the memory of the taischie(
she has created shall survive her. Her time is nearly
run; and when the day of her dissolution, which is at ,
baud, shall arrive, shall Catholics be bound by the
oath the has imposed—an oath which, in their con-
sciences, they believe to be improper ?" Again, in
soother passage, the learned, Doctor said, " The Church
of England is the eldest of those heretical Sisters I I
view with !senor these sickly sprouts, and their deges
aerate branches; the time will come, when they shall
' be gathered up, and cast into the fire; and they shall
burn I.
Tied' humble la Ma
41 Qua stauces sedum, qd tae mature female
He believed that these sentiments were not confuted te
Dr. Drotagoole, but pervaded the whole body' if die

Roman Catholic Clergy. The Right Reverend tires
late adverted to a Petition from that Body, presented
on the last day of May; 1824, which expresied * de.
sire to abolish all tithes. The writings of J. It. L.
said to be Doctor Doyle, were also cited, and corn'
pared with the evidence of that witness. It hat was to
be said of a man who cast firebrands into the Pro-
testant Church, and when be came before their Lord-
ships as a witness softened down all he had said?
J. K. L. was said to be Dr. Doyle, who certainly cashd
not be the Dr. Doyle examined before the Committee:
That writer said, " The Roman Catholics, avßomart
Catholics, entertain no designs hostile to the Protestant
Church ; but as individuals engaged in agricultural pur-;
suits, they are interested in taking away tithes from the
Establishment." This appeared to him to be much the
same as if a disappointed suitor in theCotitt of Chancery—s
as for instance, Mr. Gourlay, should go up to the frofi:f
Lord on the Woolsack, and should say, " May it pleasd
your Lordship, I, as Mr. Gourlay, bear no ill-will to yod
as Earl of Eldon; but as a disappointed suitor in the
Court of Chancery; I hit you, as Lord Chancellor, si
knock on the head"—(Hear, and a laugh). The same
writer, J. K. L., declared that the Protestant Church
must be detested—that the efforts of Legislators to
amend Ireland had been regularly marred in conse-
quence of ber exertions, and that] all the murder'
which bad stained the Irish annals, had b:en carried on
under, or had been occasioned by, her edicts. Yet this
was the same Church which had produced a Ptiest-
hood, to whose zeal, activity, and forbearance, every
witness who had been examined before the Cornmitt, e
had borne concurrent testimony—a priesthooi which,
in the moral desolation of Ireland, remained the Oases
of the desert, and gave to the eye some points on which
it could rest with a small degree of pleasure. He
passed from Doctor Doyle to the Pope's supremacy.
Tina Pope had the appointment to all the Bishopricks
in Ireland, and the Bishops so appointed administeted
to 2,500 Priests. It might be s.iid the nominees might
maintain their allegiance to their Sovereign, but they
mi lzc also be released from that allegiance to the Mo-
narch by a Bull; as Pope Pius released 411 the Fiench
from their allegiance to the Fiench Ruler. In 1639,
Charles the First was deposed by the Pope. In 175 u,
Pope Boniface deposed George the Second by an Irish
Bull. This might be called an anti-display, but it
proved that the power of the Pope to dep"se Kings
was still in existence, although Dr. Doyle s 'id it was
obsolete. In 1809, the Pope declared he had power to
depose heretical Princes, though he did not ute it.-..
Those tenets of the Church of Rome disqualified ;he
Roman Catholics from holding any office in a Pro-
testant Government. The violation of an oath was
allowed in the Roman Catholic tenets. They were
cold that an unjust oath was not to be kept. hits
doctrine was preached in the College of Maynooth, and
promulgated in a Catechism published under its au-
thority. It was there stated that a man could be ab-
solved from an unjust oath. The Catechism, after laying
don n that position, asked " What is an unjust oath r
and the reply was, " An oath that is injurious to GOD,
wy neighbou-, and myself." That was a doctrine
very different from that of the book which said, " The
just man who swearsth to his neighbour, disappoint-
eth him not, though it be to his own injury"—(Hear).
Believing, then, that the subversion of the Protestant
Church was the object of the Catholics, could the House
blame him, a Minister of that Church, for doing that
which would take away some of the facilities for can y-
ing their designs into execution ? Noble Lords were not
unaware of the novel and dangerous innovations which
had gone abroad respecting the property of theChutch
, —they did not forget the readiness with which the Irish
House of Commons agreed to the iniquitous resolution
respecting agistment by the House. It was said that
the Catholics were concerned for the predominancy of
the Protestant Church, but be doubted much the gene-
ral existence of such an impression. The Rev. Prelate eondodcd,
by declaring be should vote against **tin.
Lnrd LIMERICK said, he had not expected to hear
a speech from the Right Rev. Prelate whch recom-
mended intolerance and oppression. He admitted
that the evil of non-resident landlords existed too
much; but how came it that the Right Rev. Prelate
forgot the nott-residence of the Clergy ?—( Hear, heu.)
The Right Rev. Prelate's speech went to irritate evesy
class or the Irish people—Landlords, Tenants, Protes-
tants, and Catholics. How different frees the speech
of the Right Rev. Prelate near him (the Bishop of Nor-
wich). Let their Lordships " look on this picture, and
on that." His Lordship cologieed the conduct of tiler
Rombh Priests. He begged their Lordships' paics, bst, as a
matter of instils, be could sot sit by mad bear the inspotatiam
which had been throws me against the Catholic Priesthood.
The Bishop of CHESTER explained.

There were then some cries of Adjourn."
The Earl of HARROWBY mows that the lionse
do adjoirn. There was much commoslen,'end eulawmllms of
No, no."
The Marquis of LANSDOWN, after the speech of
the Right Reverend Prelate, thought it his duty to
state the groUnd on which he should give hies sup-
port to the measure. • The Right Reverend Prelate
had spoken of expediency. Was it expedient to ex-
clude six millions of people from the rights of the
Constitution ? Certainly no expediency could • justify
their exclusion; it was but an act of justice to admit
than. The Right Reverend Prelate had not taken
the view of a Statesman in his arguments ' • had net
examined the causes of misery in Ireland. It bad
been said from Sir John Sinclair's book, that alms;
tees were an injury to Ireland. One or two small fea-
tures in the distress of Ireland had been noticed, but
the great anomaly of the Irish population stipporting a
Church not their own had been overlooked. This ques-
rtion was not one of theology, but of allegiance. It
was whether the allegiance of the Catholics was such
as to call on Parliament to make one-third of his Mx-
' jesty's subjects incapable of exercising the duty of
subjects, or whether they should be admitted to an
equality of rights with the MR of their countrymen ?
The evidence on the table threw great light upon
this part of the question. It appeared from the testis
' mony of a'distinguisbed Prelate, that the present period
was peculiarly favourable so PmtestantisM. Why
then persist in the same system of exclusion which
was adopted when Protestantism had much to fear ?
The Right Reverend Prelate who spoke test had
dwelt in generals, and avoided facu. One only did
he condescend to notice, and that was the Bulls which
were seat over to. Ireland and England to depose
George 11. - He admitted, however, that the Itomee
Catholics had not deposed that Monarch={Hear), and
this proved the proposition of Dr. Doyle, that there was
a distinct line between the spiritual and the temporal
power of the Popes. k was not fair to select a single
tenet front the Catholic faith, construe that tenet in a par-
ticular way, and then drafty a partial inference from it.
But in 'adulating the' character of the Catholics, ap-

free Constitv dot
He knew no

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Church than by
free scope to I
admitted there v
The lower classe
however, were
'others) on this
remoicd, and
facts. Many
Union with, be
the representati,
tended that
of England. Tt
Kirk to skew t 1

But what was
teen Pieu had.
Rev. Bench-4
times were qui
these dais. Sc
in Ireland.. Ev

to the Church
above it. Yet
had not ificreal
intended to rep
tens. Anther
was prop4:ised,
ink them to
Reverend Div
nadas would

France, and lot

On the contra!
Canada remain
moved by any
Catholics, for I;
main satisfied a
- would continue
tions were rem

Lordships was,
system of coerc
ciliation they h
ready been pra
into the %% oundi
land ought to
ahew more conl
trines. He wilt
of our Constitt
Salisbury, Lord
shire, who said
to a more unh
incapable of sei
but some crime
rim to such a
any opinion on du
beanie be gave id
panacea, but as a s
in every attempt t
The Earl c

Mouse to corm
of the Noble 1
troubling their
principle of tb
their considers
Noble Marquis,
to meet him o

C

and in looking
upon two co*
• likely to accru
land ? and sei
experience, shy
was then bef
only, was Mt
decide; and it
in the manner
Catholics of I
to this part of
.few observati
was placed b
the series that
. (Mar, Isear,J
that took plan
liament for tl
diem by kiis
tbe,purpose a
sociation, an
likewise, botl
quiry relativ
consulted, hi
it would be
• result of tha
might legisl
. j'set—Pfeer
had been ad
The object
Catholic dis
for the prebe
of an antbig
question, in
tnight be pi
got at ?
it really did
And while
louse of C
to send up t 4
certainly ne
suet with si
disgraceful
ships were
they should
a ein4le me
the Dill wa,
. ►bc latter p

1 limey. Concessions so the Catholics bad in quently rejecting it. g-The. country would be roused from their ;il
lil *VI! a refused upon the same arguments which had been nupinenep. and not allow their dearest. interests to slip so
Ii
- .
upon the present occasion. In the summer •of through their fingers. Without a decided Protestant cc
when the country was in an embarrassed state, otsottaancy ia this country, them was no staidly for Protestant -
Da was satisfied dm the sight foe the prweeed ebange ~
sr
olio went.told that they could expect no con- Latere:tti•
y did net exase k., expediently da met donna "
. . esogisei VS
.W made to them. The butestents of ire- it, medilades would no follow. the public wakes would met be sh
lad tad then that their claims mold not berated ; issersassd, oar wield peace be promasted—(Her, bear). ft
1 yetis 'is mouths frogs that time st recommendation in 1 flak" 0141ANDAPY woke *Phut the MIL
Oak Wow was made from the Throes.. If ever these The Bishop of NORWICH called upon the House 0;
• eleinat were granted, it certainly should be in time of to pause ere they decided upon persevennkin that sys- ic
119101ji and not postponed till a period of *danger and tem of gruel cad unprovoked insults and injuries which am
1 *
,t otillioility arrived. The inquiry into which *Committee year after year they had so long continued to visit upon of
or their Lordships bad entered, be bad fretioendy res. six mallow of their fellow-countrymen. If • the king- vi
# ceded
to thorn, and be thought they could see ao don were not in favour of this measure, where 'be a(
:tolreritt of -their having at length followei his asked, were the County Petitions against it ?—li the im
I- . 4;1101(th a ses'lt different view of the result of Constitution could not be supported without a violation IN
4
~.. hum the bloble Lord who bad alluded to of the priociples'of Christian feeling, it required ahem-
.
• a t "IP jag° Catholic Passaaaipatiaa. betold 'bon, tion. He felt that the great dictate, 4, Love thy neigh-
,
,ItZ:seritonco to obtain something. else ; but bout as thyself,' never be forgottn. He might 11
r .., . celltat"lll4 to back such an opinion ?. be told . that the consequence of the admissioo di. the U
. . .
pg - .
.
• • .
. . .
. .
'tilli,l!.lll*.• .• - . ... . .. .
. ~ . . . . .
_ .•.•..

re:
• •
peals 1314
lacing world,
Science were
times, but I
• •ciety and Vol
Reverend Bei
elects of the 1
•13 ellaimine at
world as it is,
refer to the C
litter Repubi
vat it: Conti
thin that of a
iequence of d
Vbe,Cathotlis,
litelb look to
klanorer, ant
ere tolerant
to overturn
Lords, it is pi
the Conidtuti
rnenti
su
nJtikie on
tai
national char

peals laid been blade to early times, and not to the es•l
isting world, just as absurdly, as if a Lecturer on
Science were not to consider the discoveries of modern
times, but refer to the founders of the Royal So-
ciety and Vol. 1. of their Transactions. Let the Right
Reverend Bench opposite leave for a moment the pre-
cincts of the Bodleian and Sion Libraries, let them quit
Bellarmine and the Controversialists, and look at the
world as it is, and not as it was.—(Hoar). He would
refer to the Catholics in Europe and America ; in the
litter Republic there was one State eminently Catholic,
and its Constitution was more favourable to toleration
thin that of any of the other Federal States. The con-
sequence of the non-exclusion system was a decrease of
thaCathOties, and an increase of the Protestants. Let
theta look to the monarchies of the old world, Prussia,
Hanover, and Denmark, and there also -the Catholics
'were tolerant when they had power, and made no efforts
to overturn other Churches. But, said some Noble
Lords, it is proper to admit Catholics to a fair share in
the Conititution in Despotisms, but not in free Govern-
mentsJike our own. This was the most ridiculous ar-
gument in the world, and the most derogatory to oar
national character. It was on the very ground ref our
free Constitution that he supported the Catholic claims.
He knew no better way to serve the State and the
Church than by consulting the just wishes and giving
free scope to the honest efforts of every subject. lie
admitted there were maneand great prejudices amongst
'the lower classes, and even amongst the Clergy (who,
however, were as fallible, or even more fallible than
others) on this subject. Those ,prejudices should be
removed, and the -best way to do it was by stating
facts. Many years ago; when it was proposed by the
'Union with. Scotland to' add sixteen Scotch Peers to
'ts:e representation, the Right Rev.,-Bench opposite cop•
tended that such a measure would fatal to the Church
of England. They quoted the documents of the Scotch
Kirk to shew the hostility of that Kirk to our Church.
But what was the fact?. Singularly enough, those six-
teen Piers had always beeli found voting with the Right
Rev. Bench—(Heor, hear). Yet the prophecies of those
times were quite as .well founded as any broached in
these days. So in the case of the Sacramental Test in
in Ireland. Even Dean Swift said it would be injtitions
to the Church of England, by raising the Presb) teriois
above it. Yet the fact was not so.- The Presbyterians
had not increased, whilst the Catholics, whom it was
intended to• repress, had infinitely augmented in nem-
bers. Anther case was that of- Canada. When it
was proposed,, early in the reign of George 111. to ad-
mit them to a full share of the civil rights, a
Reverend Divine asserted in print that the Ca-
nadas would throw themselves into the arms of
France, and break their allegiance to Great Britain,
On the contrary, the Protestant States rebelled, and
Canada remained ,firm and loyal. He was not to be
snowed by any allusions •to the dissatisfaction Of the
Catholics, for how could men who were proscribed re-
main satisfied and quiet under their delusions ? ' They
would continuetobe dissatisfied until their disqualifica-
tions were removed. The real question before their
Lordships was, whether they were to retain to the old
system of coercion' or to complete the system of con-
, ciliation they had begun ? That eliteiliation had al•
ready been practically beneficial. It had poured oil
into the e ounds of the country. The Church of Eng-
land ought to sanction those further .concessions, and
chew more confidence in its own principles and doe-
trines. He would quote the opinions of the founders
of our Constitution, ef ,Lard -Sinners, the Bishop of
Salisbury, Lord Peterborough, and the Duke of Devon-
shire, who said that " no Englishman could to reduced
to a more unhappy condition than to be made by law
incapable of serving his King and Country, and nothing
but some crime of a destestable nature could reduce
him to inch a Constitution." He did not mean to give
any opinion on the other measures connected with the present• Bill,
because he gave his support to this 131 U on its own merits, novas a•
panacea, but as a matter of strict justice, and as being indispensable
in every attempt to tranquillise Ireland—(Hear, hear).
The Earl of LIVERPOOL could not allow the
House to come to a division, nor pass over the speech
of the Noble Marquis who had just sat down, without
troubling their Lordships With some observations on the
principle of the measure that was now before them for
their consideration. 'With respect to the speech Of the
Noble Marquis, he could assure him that he was ready
to meet him on the ground that be had taken at the
commencement of that speech—that of expediency;
and in looking at it in. that way, it appeared to rest
. .
upon two contingencies t-4irst, what was the good
• likely to accrue from it to the Roman Catholics of Ire-
land ? and secondly, what evil. England was likely to
experience, should the grant the ohjicts of the Bill that
was then before their Lordships ? This, and this
only, was the question on which Parliament bad to
decide; and it gave him much pain to find it mixed up
in the manner it was'Vzith other questions relative to the
Catholics of Ireland-4 Hear, hear, hear).--In referring
to this part of the question, he could not help making a
.few observations on the situation in which the House
was placed by the introduction of this Bill, as one of
the series that were to follow one another in rotation—
. (liar, hear,hear)—ln consequence of circumstances
that took place in Ireland prior to the meeting of Par-
liament for the present Session, it was thought expe-
dient by kris Majesty's Ministers to introduce a Bill for
thapurpose of staying the progress of the Catholic As-
sociation, and of other societies. At the same time,
likewise, Houses of Parliament entered into an in-
quiry relative to the state of Ireland, and had he been
consulted, he should have given it as his opinion, that
it would be the most satisfactory course to wait till the
• result of that inquiry could be known, in order that they
might legislate with the fullest knowledge °Gibe sub-
ject—(Hear).—This, however, was not the course that
had been adopted by the introducers of the present Bill.
The object of it, as was given out, was the removal of
Catholic disabilities; but this was not the only object,
for the present measure was to be accompanied by others
of an ambiguous class, so as to confuse and puzzle the'
question, in order that a few votes to the right and left
might be picked up. But how were those votes to be
got at ? By placing the House in such a situation that
rt really did not knot/ for what it was about to vote!—
And while they were deciding on the present Bill, the
House of Commons was carrying on another measure
to send up to them as soon as this was disposed of. He
certainly never, in 41his Pat liimentary knowledge, had
met with so disgraceful, he mast use the word, with so
disgraceful a eroceeding—(Harr). Before their Lord-
ships were callrd Upon to give 'it vote on the measure,
they should, at least, be informed, whether it was to be
a single measure or nest?—(Herr, hear). The object of
the Bill was to him unintelligible—perfect nonsense,and
the latter part of it was something still worse ; the only

• .: _'

*a
•

' unottlectiOnablqutrt that he had met with in the whole
of it, was the imple con:ess'on ; itt.ihat he certainly
agreed ; for if he was to choose hir course, he
should say, let the qnestion be a straight forward one--=,
Will you or will you not remove the Catholic disabilities?
And he would venture to say, that with that datum he
would draw up a Bill in half an hour, with not one-
tenth part of the objections of the present Bill. The
first question then was, Is it fit to remove. Catholic dis-
ability or not ? That was a question of perhaps as great
importance as their Lordships had ever been called upon
to decide, but at the same time it was a plain and a com-
prehensible question. The Noble Lords Opposite As-
serted; that it was on the principle that all felloi-sub-
jects ought to enjoy equal advantages ; but this propos
sition he de:lied, and said that they were not entitled. to
enjoy the same privileges as Protestants ; but if Parlia-
ment were to decide.contrary to him, he should at least.
have the satisfaction of knowineth at hey had so decided
on a plain question. • When Oe- said- that-he denied
the truth of the proposition of the Noble Lords opposite,
he was willing to admit, that in a free State all subjects
were entitled to equal t ightison elual conditions; but the
conditions ottheCatholics and Protestants were not equal;
there was this grand dfference—the one offered only a
divided, the other an entire allegiance; and unless ii could.
' be proved to him that the Min' *ho seorked half the day,
,ought to receive as much as ...the man who worked
the whole day; or,.in oher' Wor4s, , that • the half was
equal to the whole, he-could not admit -the Roman
Catholic claims. It waknot hislotention to enterintn
the question. of expediency; 'it :was sufficient forhim to
have laid the foundation of the 'principle .on• jostice—
(Mgr, hear). 'bat,. question he had .always relied
upon, and in the course of 20 years cf -Parl.amentary
life, he had never receiv:d.a sa:isfactory alswer to
(Hear, hear).. H= d d not intend to say anything of
,tiarisubitantiation—of the invocation of Saints—or of
anything that iniAed itself with former opinions relative
ut the Roman' Catholics. He Wristild cfmatie himself
solciy to thoopinions..that weicilien- entertained.' 'By
Dr. Doyle's Own evidence, it was established beyond a •
doubt, that the Pooe:hzd.snpreine,posier in the nomina-
tion of any one to a vacant diocese in Ireland; and to a
.question as to v..liether„if he named; a foreign person, or
the most objectionable man in the world, the nomination
would be' goods; the answer was in the affirrnative—
(Hear, hear)-15,.. is appointment must fix the Bi‘hop
aithoot app-,41; 194 all the interior Clergymen were
bound to *nisei his nominee.: his HOliness might ap-
point any fainib.er of France, br'of Spain, or• of that
bu bear, as It visa with semi NO* Lords, the. Holy
Alliance.; After,such a statement as Amt.. would any
man Venture to say that the Catholics wittre entitled to
the same rights and to the same privileges with.the Pro-.
testants ?—(Heur, hear).—lt might,' perhaps, be sup.
posed, that the progress of civilization and of know-
ledge among mankind might serve to render the danger
less, and he thought so too—(Hear,hear);—but. still
there was nothing in that to rely 'tspOn. If their Lord-
ships.would look'at the restoration of Charles the. Se-,
coed, they would see that the reign. of. tharMonarch
was distioguLhed by as many wise men, aril as much
civil;zatiott as any age of the world ; 4cl yet, within 20 '
years'of that epoch, an effort was made, that had al-
most proved a successful one, towards introducing the I
Catholic religion into this country .
hear, hear).—lt was not against • individuals that he
brought any reproach—.his complaint was against
the whole body f the , Catholic priesthood, in
how many different ways were they absolute mas-
lets of the minds and of the actions Of their flock ?
First, their Lordships might tarn their• attention to-
wards the dreadful power of confession that was vested
in the Pi iest ; a confession not voluntary and uncalled
' for, as in the Protestant faith, but insisted upon as
a necessary matter of duty through • the • art of the 1
priesthood, in whose hanis the awarding the punish. •I
argots remained unlimited ; by the great mass of the.
people. absolution was considered as an entire washing
from all sins, so that the power 'of the.priesthood in ad-
ministering it was of course looked up to 'as extreine—
(:,ear, hear). He understood 'hat the confesiing Priest
.s as not only bound t secrisy, so that he• was not
permitted to tell the crimes this: Nat -been • dime, but
likewise was obliged to be Silent as to crimes that were
to be don-, not only by the party confiding, •but "like-
wise those which he knew were to be executed by other
1:lemons; so that. if. a Roman. Catholic Priest were to
know of a plait to blow up•the King, Lords; and Com-
mons, he, would not.only not be Called upon to announce
it to the State, but it would actually be against his•dittysto
make it known —(Hear). Nor was i...a picture of hii own
forming that he had described.' "Their,Lorclihips might
remember that such a thing had happened:.--(iiear).
He saw, then, on every hand insurmountable difficulties
to any union between the Catholics and the Protestants.
Something had been said about the divisions betsteen-
the Dissenters and the Churchmen being ..done away
with, but those two bodies had one common finlnd;i-
-tion-stoue—the Bible, to build upon, which was not the
case with the Roman Catholics. One instance of *the
Catholic Clergy he would just mention. A Protestant;,
Gentleman was desirous of being married in a Ca-
tholic country its a Catholic Lady ; but the Priest ab..
!lamely refused, unless he would pledge 'himself, that
all the children should be brought up in the Catholic
faith ; this likelise, on inquiry, he found was the ad-
mitted case in. Ireland. Was it, then, he' again' asked,
possible to unite such persons with the Protestants of
England? Excommunication, likewise,. was another
weapon with which the Catholic Priest attacked the
Church of England. If, in a county election
land, any Priests interfered, the power of the proprie-
tors was at an end, and they might whistle for any
iofluence they would have over their tenants: his pe-
culiar objection to-the religion was, that it penetrated
into every domestic scene, and inculcated a syitem of
tyranny never before known. He held, and indeed the
present Bill held, that the Protestant succession was the
very foundation of the whole system of our Govern-
ment; and he felt thoroughly convinced, that if the
House were to grant the concessions to the Catholics
to the extent now propOsed, the Protestant succession
would not be worth one farthing.. As long as the
ciples of the British Constitution were essentially Pro-
testant. so long must the Crown be Protestant, and the
King and his successors must take-the Crown upon this
principle,,and upon this alone. It had been reiterated,
that it was haid that a man, on account of his religious
belief, eiould be prevented attaining to the offices of
Lord Chief Justice,• or of Prime Minister ; but why
was this; hard ? In what respect wat 'it harder,
than •.thal should not be. created -Lord Chan.
cellor? These was less danger iti• a Cathcilic being
Chancellor *-th,an in his being Lord Chief Justice
of the King's Bench or Common Pleas, for reason
that a Chancellor might be removed at the pleasure

of the Crown. whereas Judges of the inferior Courts
could not -be displaced without a long and serious
process. But it was said that the Privy Council might
be increased by the admission of Roman Catholics,
and that it was unjust and cruel to exclocle Catholics
from such an appointment of trust and honour; in
short, that a Catholic might be a Prime Minister; and
have the whole patronage of the Church and State at
his disposal ; and, as long as the system of the
Constitution was Protestant, it was essential to main-
tain a Protestant throne, and a Protestant admini-
itration of the public affairs. The House ought at
once to meet this Bill fully and unequivocally, and
not to deceive the people ; they ought at once to de.
151 are, that if the Bill were to • pass Great B:irai,•
would• be no longer a Protestant itate. The firs-
evil he should apprehend from the passing of such a
Qin would not be immediate, but it would be infal.
lible, and would come upon the country in a mrnner
little expected. It was not the immediate object of the
Catholics to possesithernselves of the property of the
Established Church; they were too wary to pro-
ceed openly and directly in any such deaign.—
No, their object was, in the first instance, met ely to
diminibh the property of the Church. What was the
language held by one of their Authorities upon this
very point ?—That he did wish todecrease the magni-
tude of the possessions of the Church; but he wished it,
not as a P•iest, but as an Irishman. Was any man so
blind, or d f—was any man so lost to all the benefits
of experience, as not to know what such language
really meant? Who was so thoroughly ignorant of the
course of human actions,, as not to know, that when
once the property of the Chinch was violated under
any such a pretence, it would soon be seized upon—
the teal motive of Catholic aggrandisement and cupi
dity ? The most insidious way in which the Catholics
could possibly set about their wok was to say, " Take
the property of. the. Established Church, and give it
to toe Pottle. for the general benefit of the country.''
When once the property of the Protestant Hierarchy
was invaded' and impaired by •such an artful attack,
it required but little wisdom to foretel what would-
befal the remainder of its rights and possessions.—
The grand masi'm of the Catholics .was, that it
-one Chnreh stink, the other must swine, and destroy
or depress the Piotestant Establishineat, and that
of tie Catholics would flourish. There was nothing
inconsistent in the evidence before the House;. for the
Catholics thought, that if they could destroy the Church
by what. they called legislatite Means, it was no de-
struction,in•the sense of-their professions.. To destroy
that Church was, However, their grand object ; its was
their oath, their everything, to effect its downfal. Cir-
cumstances might or might not favour their designs;
but if the object was effected, what did it signify. whe-
ther the mischief were produced by, open attacks, or
by the more insidious method of imPiirteg the Church
property ? Noble Lords seemed' to view this measure
solely as a means of communicating to the Catholics all.
the enjoyments of Government patronage and employ-
ments, and of uniting all his Majesty's faithful subjects
into one nation; but he had already shewn that the dif-
ficulty of obtaining any such objet's 'arose out ,of the
very spirit of their Church. Noble Lords really ape.
peered to think, that by education,ind by vemoving
the impositions which were laid on the Catholics as to.
marriages, and as to. Government pa•ronage, all &hers:
sioos between the two C torches would cease; but the
question, in deciding the measure before the House,
was, whether the effect of this Bill would not be to
increase those dissensions ?—(llear,hear). Theßill would
leave the two contending parties where they were, es-
cept that by giving new powers to the Roman Catho-
lics it would be bringing the parties upon an. .equality,
and thereby increase the discord and contentions. It
would not only give both sides greater'ficilities of con-
test, but it would afford every excitement to dissention
and strafe ; it would supply', many additional points to
contend for. If it were possible to "unite the Catholics
and Protestants in one friendly mass, by any common
system of education, he should applaud the effort to
obtain so desirable a result; but separated as they now
are,. and -actuated by the spirit by, which it was
well known that so many on both Wei were actuated;
such a project was absolutely impossible; the very hope
was visionary, and those.who had the Object at heart,
and had introduced the present measure as a. means,
or in the hope of effecting the object they had so
much at heart, would find themselves entirely disap-
pointed, and most egregiously deceiied, if they were
to carry the present measure. •Whiri we's, then, the
good which could result from this 'Bill? Would it
tranquillize, or would it tend to tringaillize Ireland?
—He was sorry that so roach*. delusion existed
throughout the country upon a past so important.—
Great mistakes had arisen from the belief entertained
by Members of both Houses, that because Ireland had
been in a very disturbed state, and because very objez-
aiottable measures had been resorted to for keeping that
country in. peace, 'that therefore all the disturbances
had grown out' of the Catholic disqualifications. • It
t;ad,,been therefore the general, or at least a very corn-
Moaampression, that, if.tbe disabilities were removed,
the foundations of peace would be at once established.
'But, it was a proposition proved to the certainty of
abstract demonstration, that the disturbed state .of
Ireland for the last ,twenty years, bad bad -nothing
whatever to do with the Catholic question.. This
point .was most satisfactorily proved by the-evi-
dence lying upon their Lordships' table. For the
space of twenty-five years the Insurrection Act
had never been once gat in force in the province of
Ulster, and yet that province was the great sem of re-
ligious violence, because the two parties were so nearly
upon an equality. The Insurrection Act, _on the con-
trary, had been.cartied into effect in the south of Ire-
land, where no religious dissentions whatever had
exiiresl, or at least, to the extent of disturbing the public,
I peace. Absentees, combined with the minute subdivlat
sion of property; had occasioned an increase of pope*
lion, to a most enormous extent ; this had brought dmp
country into a state of beggary, and hence had
all the disorders of the State. This great evil, he
happy to say, was now curing itself. Dr., D
states, in his letters, that the population of led
was now positively decreasing. He (Lord Liver-
pool) perfectly agreed with the Right Reverend
Prelate, that, whether the Catholics amounted* to one,
two, or three millions, made no difference, or ought.na
make no difference in the decision of this questiossinse,
It was a great question that ought not to be devidast
otherwise than uptiq general principles, and upon ex-
'tended .views.'- But with respect to the number of C
tholic subjects, the greattst ex iggeraton had been
reso. ted to upon this subject. A Noble Lord had stated
the Catholics of Ireland to outnumber the Protestants

I %V

r

II

z
ti..

!' f

.•.
that the proportion was sot en* three to one. -With
reference to the recent augmentation of the Catliplics,.
it was equally well proved that the Catholics now
the same proportion to the Protestants as they did in
the time of Sir William Petty. Their Lordship(.had
ht ord.- upon all rccasi ms when this question was de-
bated, that the Cath• lic subjects of Foreign Stites
enj yed many advantages which were not coined by
the Callus is subjects of .he English Clown. He belted
the House to colsider that there were circumstances in
the English Constitution, growing out of the advantages
of that Constitution, which might make restrictions upon
theCitholics more necessary than in absolutenonarchies.
But persons spokei as if, the Irish Catholics were really
deprived of all property in the advantages of the Con:.
stitutiiin. He did.not .wish to undervalue what the pre-
vent Bill would give them ; but deprive-them of this,
and all they possessed more rights and priv leges than'
any people of Europe, without any exteptlon. He cer-
tainly cotili not carry his argument to America, where
extreme liberty pervaded ill the religious as well as.
civil institutions. The mass of the property in Ireland
was well known to belong to Peottstantx. whilst the •
mass of the population was Catholic. When conces-
sions had hitherto been made to the Catholics, the cry. •
had been that the House was /ranting a great boon jo
the people ; but the present Bill would have the diredßy •
contrary effect, for its object was to benefit only about
forty or fifty individuals, who aspired to places of puh-
lie trust, whilst it _took away the civil rights of many
thousands. Reverting again to the United States of
America, whatever might be the freedom of her polity,
he could only say that her's was not
.the British • Con-
stitution, nor was it the Constitution which be wished
Great Britain to possess. There was, therefore, no
iparity of argument between the two countries, '
r* ad the religious freedom proper" in the one might
'be far (rem • desirable or proper in the other.
vote of the House of Commons, passed on the 29th
'April, declared, " that it was expedient that provision
should be made by law, for the maintenance of the se-
cular Clergy of the Cathotc religion in Ireland." This
provision, in his opinion, was to all intents and purposes
establishing by law the Roman Catholic Hierarch, in
its full pride and power. This was going at once to the
very object of Catholic triumph; and those who bad'
been the most alarmed, and had thooght that such_ .a
state of thingsvroildgrow out of the present Bill, had
never thought that it would have beeis done so openly.
Was such a measure constituttonal ? Was it consistent
with the rights and privileges of Protestants? It bad
been.specioudy argued, that the Catholic. Claims could
not milWate against the Coronation Oath; but that oath .
warmreated solely for religious purposes, and it *.cis
only by' inferences that suck an opiaitin could arise,
for thitt oath, . was mtat positively to maintain the
Church of England in all its rights. and propeaty,—
(Hear, hear, hear). The Catholic •Chorith 'Of .Ireland
was not like the Catholic Church of 'England. The •
Catholic Church of Ireland was an' aliment Church, ,
with, a jurisdiction, and witb Bishops, Priests, pa- : ,
rishet; and every other appearance of a regularly -
established Church. He bad a letter in his pocket; CO,. ';•::.;;;:.
prove that in Ireland the Catholic Bishop' would *not' •
even address the Protestant -Bishops by their legal: t •`
titles, and in the Catholic almanacks,. all that related
to.the Qatholit Church' was•printed in large letters,
whilst • what referred to the Established Church was -
printed in a stain type. The esthetic- Chittsti sheaved
a complete parity of jurisdiction with the establishment:
The House could not, therefore,-conceire it iostible to
favour such a Church with safety to the -right of ' the
Church of England., He hied argued the ..pdint.upon
a narrow principle, in ordei to conriohe the Rouse that
the present Bill was totallyoncompatible frith the first
principles of the Coriatiotioo, and would &odor, the -
most seriops -evils throughout -the • eountrf, and that
not only calla it not produce any good, hutillat it *ould
fail to achieve any of thole objects 'which its promoters
flattered themselves it would prodisce. He could.not
bring. himself to vie* it as a measureof peace and conci-
liation. Whatever it might do in this in first •
instance, he was persuaded that its' natural . tendency
would be to increase dissensions, and to create discoid,
even where discord did not previously exist.. He in-
treated their Lordships to consider the aspeci of the
times in which they lived. It was their. fate to hear
doctrines openly promulgated, and which as novel
as.they were mischievoul. The people are now taught
in publications to consider Queen Mary. as a wise and
prudent Queen, and that the world had gaioed nothing
by the,Reforniation. Nay, more than this, it was now
promulgated that James the Second was a wise and
virtuous Prince; that he fell in the'glorious cease of
religious toleration ; and that three months .befire
he abdicated the Throne, he had put forth 'a
Mit
solemn declaration, that he never
.meant to injure,'
much less subiert the Established *Church,.antl this .
was published to the people of this country bt grave
Catholic Divines. Could the House be aware of these
strong facts, and not see that a great and powetfol en.
gipe was set to work to effect the object of re-establiihing
the Catholic Religion throughout these kingdams? and
it once established; should we not revert to a state of ig-
norance, with all its barbarous and direful consequences?
Let the House consider what had been the result of those
laws—what had been the effects of that fuodamerstal
principle of the British Constitution which they were
pow, called upon to alter with such an unsparing hand.
Poe the last one hundred and thirty years, the country
had enjoyed a state of religious peace—a blessing that
hid ansat from the wisdom of 'our laws.' But what
had been the fate of the country for the one hundred
and thirty years immediately preceding that period ;
England had two in a state of the most • sanguinary
religious contentions The bleisings of the latter period
were to be attributed solely to the nature of thole law*
which had granted an equal toleration tdell-reliaions,..
,at the sametimithatahey maintainedai just,- reasonable,
and ispderate *whorl ;is savour of the Church. If
the House coaddeted the itombh &Alluded History, cdsld
they possibly think or favouring via Chifth? He could ma
view the preientftwaiure without the deepen apprehensions. and
be trusted that their Loidships would not inafeiny such desperate
expetinienta upon the Coostitudou, and upon a system under width
the country had enjoyed such innumerable advantages.
The Earl of • HARROWBY, after an apology for
troubling their Lordships at that late hour, and a high
en log Liverpool),iomon theee
isdpeecb
e
h Nobleof his Noble
Frieo
er Fe rieerogdo
ro(thenet.El:ersl
of
built on the danger of a divided allegiances on the
idea that the Catholics, while they professed their alle.
ctoooit
jhesoorPot:.dislitiois.
guished. The Catholics, however, themselves distin-
gsN'oabniceeFtori
the
-King,
distin-
guish them. This argument proved . too much. It
would follow from it, that Catholics could not be faith.
fol subjects to any Sovereign if they reasoned correctly
their %sat

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116017% in of at least five to one ; it spas unques-.1 on the'supposed tenets
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Mtge could his Noble Friend 'derive from proving that
Aire tumble, from accounts which could not be incorrect, I
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