Star.
London, England, 1815-04-12 00:00:00

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INSOLVENT DEBTORS BILL

Mr. Serjeant BEST rose, to move for leave to
bring in a Bill to amend the Insolvent Act. Under
that Act, he said, many great frauds were commit-
ted on the Public ; there were. at this moment, se-
veral persons in prison for debt, who chose rather to
spend their fortunes there than to pay their just
debts. His objects in bringing in this Bill were two;
first, to enable creditors to compel such persons to
give up their property as iar as was necessary to pay
their debts ; and, secondly, to punish fraudulent
debtors, persons who procured large credits without
the ability or inclination to answer them. He:would
distinguish between those who were able to pay and
those who were not. Those who had money, and,
upon examination of their property, were able to pay
fifteen shillings in the pound, should be onn.ediately
discharged ; but they who were only able to pay ten
shillings in the pound, if it appeared that they had
rendered themselves by neglect or profuse extrava-
gance, or their vices, unable to pay the entire debt.
should be confined in prison twelve months. He did
not mean that there should be no distinction between
the honest m.oi whom misfortunes had rendered tin,
able to pay his debts, without any fault of his, and
the knave, whose object was to avoid payment by
every means; but his object was to make that dis-
tinction between them which the present Act did
not. He concluded, by expressnig a hope, that the
House would assent to his motion, whicii he was
convinced would be productive of essential benefit so
the country.
Mr. B. LAT HURST said, that the lave Act bad

been privieetive of great distress, and in many in-
stances destructive to several industrious tradesmen,
whese proveities had been profusely squandered
away by persons without honour or principle; that
it tended to corrupt the morals of several young per-
soils, who indulged themselves in many excesses,
from the facility with which they got into debt, and
en avoided payment. As the present Bill tended
tcheck such evils, he would second the motion for
bringing it in.
Mr. HORNER said, he would net oppose the
bringing in the Bill, but there were parts of it which,
as th.ciibed by the Honourable and Learned Mem-
ber, he could not agree to. He had two objects in
- vii w ; one was to make the property of she debtor
Subject to the payment of his debts. To this he
would not object ; but the Act of last Session went
as :ar ; :and the other was Co punish the man who
should not be able to pay more than half, if this hap- ,
pened through his own fault. It a man could be
proved to have rel;ained credit under false pretences,
acre was no doubt he ought to be punished, but
this should be done by a penal Statute, and not by
miligling the punishment of the debtor in the Act
which was iritended for his relief. He conceived it
was absurd-to discharge one man who paid 15s. in
the pair d, and to punish another, by a year's impri-
sonment, who could pay no more than 10s. By this
sno.te of leasoning, we would judge of the guilt or
ituiectuce of a man according to the number of
shah-
lirgi lie paid in the pound, but it was sell known
that many who paid 15s. to get off the other ss.
weir less honest than those who were only able to
pay 10s.
Mr. LOCKHART supported the Bill.
Mr. ABERCROMBY contended against the ne-
cessity raf the Bill, though he would not oppose its
being brought in.
Mr. HURST was of the same opinion.
Mr. BARING observed, that the country should
have more experience of the late Act before any alte-
ration was made in it.
S..rjeant BEST raplied at considerable length,
ant repeated his arguments for the necessity of the
Bill. The question was then put, and leave was
given to bring it in.
TREATY WITH AMERICA.
Mr. R. H. DAVIS, in rising to move the Address
to hn It‘iyal Highness the Prince Regent on the
of Peace with America, said, he had to claim
tie paftictilar indulgence of the House to the obser-
vations vlich he had to make.. We had now con-
cioded the war, and made an honourable and, he
booed. a lastng peace with that nation. That the
war had be, n unprovoked on our part no man would
deny ; it had been carried on, not from any vindic-
tive motive, or through desire of conquest in us, but
with the intention of asserting uur maritime and na-
tional rights. We were now at peace, and he trusted
that the advantages of peace with such a nation, so
aslvantageously situated with respect to commercial
intercou:se, would be liparent to the House, and
protiuce an unanimous approbation of the Treaty
itself. To those who were dissatisfied with the
Treaty or anal :us for a continuance of the war, he
would oboist:, that America was a nation possessed
of go at resources, and if we wished to carry on the
war by blockading her ports, we would drive her on
to those r .ounces, and be the means of snaking her
a great and powerful maritime nation. In the count
• of the war she had endeavoured to get possession of
oar provinces in C made, which were Lravely de-
fended !)y an able officer with a comparatively small
number of troops, to whom great praise was due ; in
this war we had seen the power of America, and she
. had felt ours by the total loss of her trade, and by
having seen our troops victorious even in her capital ;
• but from all we had seen and known this must ap-
pear that a war with her was a thing to be.deeply
deplored, and that a firm peace and commercial in-
- teicout se with hal would be for the mutual advantage
of both ci untries. He holed from the obvicusiie.i
of what ate had said. that there would not be
sentient voice to the Address which he should have
the honour of proposing, and he concluded by
moving--
u 1 hat an humble and dutiful Address be presented to his
Royal Highness the Prince Regent, that.king hint for his moat
House
co cirscersion in having,beras pleased to by Lefore the
House the I r. any of Peace between this country and America;
and a•surtlg L koyal Highness that they reflected with sails-
faction and i.r...itude on this fresh proof of the anxiety evinced
by him for tip; welfare a f the k ogdutit, iu having concluded a
Tr, •t y a • vaotageons, and at the same time they humbly hot eu
that a .cb final arrangetneats would be a :opted as to s.cu:e that
harmouy and social union which should exist between the two
cow,' r e

fOiSONIIY sad, be could by no means ap- I
prrAL of the conduct of Ministers in the manage-
ment of the late Treaty. Every pretension which
had been brought .tOrward on our part had been
ab,indoned one by one. lie objected to the time to
winch the conclusion w...s protracted, and to having,
let That opportunity pass by when it could have been
most Advanuptct,itily made. if he were rightly in-
formed, and he took his information from the official
documents puulished by the American Government,
the principal terms offered first by England as her
'las qua sea were all rejected by America, and after-
wards :Abend ,ned by this c•untry. Even those pro.
winces which had been most averse to war had unani-
mously declared that they would prefer it to the'ac-
c,Ttance of the terms offered. It was incompiehen-
Cole to him, why the Nobie Lord (Castlereagh) had
abstained froth moving the Ad less. Was it because
the difficulty of the Nireetion stared him in the face i
for the Noble Lord was aware that so late as 0,?o-
-ber last articles dravia up for tie protection of the
Indians were resisted by the American Government,
who refused in any shape to acknowledge the sosee
reignty of the Inchaes, or to alter the boundary line.
Wiiat must be obvious to the House was, that there
appeared no difference in substance between the ar-
ticles first drawn up by the American Commissioners
end those now forming part of the Treaty of Peace.
Several paints were unsettled. The Treaty was not
only quite silent on the cession of the district of
Maine, but it was remarkable that the three great
points in agitation between the two countries were iti
tact abandoned. In the same predicament was the
question of Moose Island, though represented to be-
long to us as fairly as Northamptonshire, and COM.
enissioners had been appointed to settle it. Never
before was a point of such intricacy to be submitted,
as in the present case, to the arbitration of a foreign
and independent Sovereign Were a map or chart
made out of this indefinable line, assisted by the

ablest of our geographers, still he was confident dist
no European Potentate, not even the Emperor 61,
Russia, would be able to ascertain the boundary line.
Another of his objections to the Treaty was, that it'
had no reference to the Orders of Council, the im-
pressment of seamen and the right of search ; the
Treaty, to be sure, had been signed, but the preten-
sions of England and America were in state quo ;
they were exactly as indefinite as ever, and promised
to temain so. He was, therefore, quite unable to
discover any cause for the useless waste of treasure
and the lamented loss of blood, during the contest,
as sacrificed to the negligence of Ministers, after they
had disputed with America for points which the
Treaty gave up. He trusted in GOD, however, that
we should never see another war with America, since
no two eountr;es were ever so identified as to interest,
or connected by so !piny ties. He never could con-
template America as a child of this country, sprung
from ourselves, grown up under us, and now arriving
at maturity ; he never could look at this, politically
or relatively, and not be satisfied that more true
glory redounded to this country from having.given
existence to America, than from any exploits of arms.
Uuder this view of the subject, lie should feel it his
duty to submit the following as an amendment to the

Address:
That, while the House contemplated with satittaction the re-
turn of peace with America, yet, reviewing all the circiun-
stances, they regretzvil it was rot sootier accomplished; that
the House deeply deplored the wa,te of treasure and loss of so
many valuable lives, when the elevated and commanding situa-
tion of the United Kingdom would have enabled us to have
evinced our liberality by offering terms of peace, that they
were consoled to find that peace, notwithstanding, at length
establi.hed, trusting that the two freest nations would exhibit
to nunkind the spectacle of cordial unbnitnity and lasting peace.
Mr. GOULBURN went at length into the ques-
tinn,when he defendedthe conduct of the war,explain-
ed its difficulties, and justified the Treaty of Peace.
Mr. PONSONBY explained.
Mr. BARING said, the whole of the American
negotiation afforded the greatest example of miss
government in the annals of any country. We had
first sent a Noble Lotd (Gambier) then, a civilian
from Doctors' Commons (Dr. Adams) ; and yet at
the end came the mos: meagre measure that was
ever known in the disguise of diplomacy; so that
Gentlemen were really at a loss to account for the
immense preparations that were made. The discus-
sion of difficulties as to the boundary line, and other
points, should all have been discussed, if it were
only to be seen whether we could agree or not. In-
stead of this, the question of impressment was com-
mitted in a manner the most inconvenient to both
countries. No independent people would consent to
their being impressed or seized by another Power,
merely becauie they spoke the same language.—
lhough he readily admitted this to be a question of
extreme difficulty, still the question was reasonable]
in itself; and it we refused to listen t it, we must
be constantly and rerni.incilly at war. Nothing
but extreme indoleece on the part of his Majes-
ty's Geverinnent could account for their ir;attention
to this great subject. He voeuld a.ld, indeed, that
the difficulty was susceptible of an easy remedy,
though he pretended not io offer o-ty speculation up-
on it. Very great blame existed on the part of his
Majesty's Government for nat opening a negotiation
before the Commission et Ghent. The real and
sole diffiCulty was, atter all, the Indi in bounder's
when, although he agreed .that the Indian nation
ought nut to be abandaned, he would conteril that
;hey existed in a state of anamolous allegiance to
the United States of America, which circumstance
was not unknown to us when we coalesced with
them. So far, therefore, they were by no mean:,
the independent tribes they were represented. T!
simple qnestion was, whether we were to set the In-
dians up as an independent tribe, which they ranter
were ? Now the sort of pacification WO V.141e.1
set up, was marking the boundary of the Indian
territory, and a consequent peaCe, as a sine qua non.
He defied the Honourable Gentleman opposite to
affirm, that the question of boundary had ever been
~verily put to the United States. Obiectionable as
this was to America, he would maintain that it was
equally to the detriment of England. It we could
circumscribe the surplus population of America to a
boundary line, instead of permitting it to spread it-
self in agriculture,• we should, in the same propor-
tion, force them to become a manufacturing coun-
try, and prejudice ourselves. The Treaty jest pro-
vided, that, having been at war, we wete to remain
now at peace, without not only not settling but even
not mentioning the points about which we had waged
war. The Government, he contended, had made
this country completely contemptible. in the eyes of
the Americans,.by appealing to put forth its strength.
and failing in every object intended to be accom-
plished. -The expeditions of Sir G.•Prevost failed
because they were all badly planned in the British
Cabinet—because they were bad and absurd. The
expedition to New Orleans was equally absurd ; it
was monstrous ; and if that city bad been taken, it
would, he to oar troops another Walcheren, for theta
WS hot a more unhealthy spot in the world. On
the whole, we sustained a loss of military reputation
by this war which many years could not repair;
and it offietual means were not taken to secure our
amicable relations with America, we should even
have in the Northern States the most formidable eft-
mays this country ever had to contend with.
Mr. MAR RYAT contended, that all the conces-
sion, which this country had made to the Americans
had had no other effect than to encourage the most
unreasonable pretensions on their part.
Mr. C. GRANT contended, that from every part
of the conduct of the American Government it was
most evident that they would not have made that
Civety had it at: t been for the events which took place
last year in Europe ; and the favourable terms con-
taieed in it afforded the most convincing proof, that
the Americans did 4not consider themselves that tri-
umphant people which was supposed by Gentlemen
on the opposite side of the House. With respect to
the proposal of a boundary line, it was one which
nobody could object to ; on the contrary, it was es.
scntial, as a means of preventing future wars, that a
clear line should be marked.out between the territo-
ries of both nations. With respect to the stipulation
for the Indians, he would ask, it it was not a matter
of importance to gain for those people their liberty'
and their rights as an independent people ? Indeed,
lie was sorry to find some Gentlemen disposed to
treat those unfortunate tribes too lightly .whether
they were savages or not, they had assisted us in
the war, and it woulditave been the greatest degree

of baseness in us to have abandoned them. So far
then trona considering it as a deviation from the
great principles of policy to bring the Indians into
the Treaty, it was a matter highly honourable to us
to have admitted theie people into the Scale of hu-
man beings, and to have conferred upon them rights
which all our fellow-creatures were entitled to.
Sir JAMES MACINTOSH conceived, that 'the
greatest misconduct was observed in carrying on the
negotiations and the war. The negotiations were
criminally delayed, and that delay caused the de-
struction of many valuable lives, as well as the loss
of national honour ; and our principal failures in the
campaign were occasioned by the weak and unskilful
plans formed in the British Cabinet. No language
of his was sufficient to condemn the conduct of our
army at tiraihington; the destruction of public build-
ings, of national archives, and all those things which
constitute) the pride of a great Commonwealth, was
unvxampled in the history of civilized warfare; and
the whole of that business was disgraceful to the Bri-
tish Government. lie wi.hed to know why our Go-
vernment did not avail itself of the mediation of the
Emperor of Russia, whet, it was offered, and enter
into a negotiation with the Americans ? his was
another delay highly culpable on tile part of the Bri
tish Government. As to the clause respecting the
Indians, he was sorry to say lie could not find in it ally
thing to rejoice at in the language used by the Ho-
nourable Gentleman who spoke last ; for there was
nothing in the Treaty that secured any privilege to
the Indians, or that could prevent the oppressions
they formerly suffered. They were still subject to
fraud, to violence, and to exclusion from the terri-
tories they occupied. Tracy might be considered as
a kind of vassal nations, subject to the dominion of
the United States ; and any resistance made by them
hereafter to the American Government, would be
considered a kind of rebellion ; besides, the very
condition in favour of the Indians, by which theit
hunting ground was not to be touched, was a pro-
posal to keep a great track of country in a state of
perpetual desolation.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, it was a circum-
stance greatly to be regretted, that at the close of a
war, when a peace was concluded between the two
countries, such a discussion as this should be brought
forward on points that oug!:t to be- wholly buried in
oblivion. It was placing ht i Majesty's Ministers in
a great difficulty to bt nig ni) eve, y subject that tend-
ed to &ewe irritation between nations that were now
on amicable relations with each other. He contended
there bad been no waste of time in catrying on the
negotiations. The lit iti..ll Government could emit in
prudence have carlied them on otherwise than on
principles of jeal.. usy. No conrse could have been
pursued with America except that of displaying the
who,- foice of the country ; and it could be proved,
that the %1-dinar!' hounds of prudence had been trans-
gresel in order to bring the affairs in discussion to
as speedy a conclusion as possible. He was prepared
to justify the entire mode in which the negotiation
had been conducted, and to prove that the animus of
the co,sntry was directly in favour of peace. An
Honourable Gentleman had ask4l, why the media-
tion of Russia was not accepted ? He would remark
this point without any disparagement to the Em-
peror of Russia; whose' justice mid impartiality he
was sure would have been fully di.played on that as
well as all other occasions, that if any sentiment was
more ci,.:111, felt in this country than are.ther, it
was, that we shonl.l never submit the decision of our
rights to the mediation or dictation of any foreign
Power whaterer.--( Hear, letar.)—England must
Aways maintain her own rights.—(Hear, hear.)—
His Lordship then. entered into a v..riety of argu-
ments in defence of the Treaty. He co tinned to
shew that the English Government acted with the
utmost candopr towards the American l'ienipoten-
tiaries, and concluded by expressing a hope that the
House would not adopt the amendment.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH explained.
Mr. J. P. GRANT supported the amendment at
considerable leneth.
Mr. ROBINSON opposed it.
Mr. .1. P. GRANT a xplained.
'rile House dicta divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment :;7—Asainst it 11S—Majority
in favour of the Address. 91.
Adjourned at Half-past 'l..velve.

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