Star.
London, England, 1822-02-21 00:00:00

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ore fie Wit% that theywonid makepregfets—(Hear). not to cetera-big most hearty thanks to Ibe kslbble,
Re asked fbt a littlie Intense he woull:abt•be repte. Lord (14. Hamilton) for his.. renovating mid: highly
seated as taking a imp end because itwosild decide in--beraitiugbtertions in this service, .
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the question whether dale was ever to be a tons , Mr. t.FORBSS then addressed the . .
mencement of Reforms or whether his Majesty's Mi- said that the embarrassments of .the Bur ...Aber,
nisters would risk the peace of the country by an abs dam had been very much eta Berated. e"A is-
solute refusal? He contended that, though not gii• trates had effected very large reductions hi the debt,
zetted, the town of Aberdeen was actually insolvent; which he doubted not they would soon be able to pay
he did not blame the individuals, but the system ;.-- off, with Ile per cent. interest. He must beg to coo-
under that system it. was impossible the manners tradict one part of the statement of an Honourable
could be honest men. Such was the purport of the Member (Mr. Hume), who had said that if all the
Minute of the CoUncil of Aberdeen when they re. revenues of the Burgh of Aberdeen were to be
signed ten years ago; yet the Ministers reinstated
be
mortgaged, they Would brinsufficient to defray its
them, reinstated the very men who had got the Burgh debts. House would not fail to observe with
in debt several hundred thousand pounds—but, be it pleasure, by the speech which they had just heard
observed, the management of the funds was still in delivered by a Noble Lord, that arrangements had
the hands of trustees. " But,* said the Learned Lord, been adopted by the Maoistrates which reflected upon.
" this expenditure is for great improvements; look them, in his opinion, die highest credit. Indeed, the
at the harbour of Aberdeen l" But the Learned Lord improvements which had been effected in Aberdeen
forgot that the harbour was under a separate trust.— within the last twenty or thirty years were truly sur-
If this expenditure had been for real improvements, he prising ; and such as no - person, at that distance of
(Mr. Hume) could almost have forgiven it : but all time, would have ventured to predict. The manufac-
that had been done was to run out a quay, which timers were active, and trade in a most flourishing con-
every day was tumbling down, and in the opinion of dition. He then, adverting to the conduct of the Burgh
many naval men would one day or other totally de. Magi traces, vindicated them from a charge which had
:troy the harbour. These were the improvements for been most unfairly thrown out against them, of having
which all the charitable funds had bten squandered, applied the public money in an improvident manner.
and an immense debt incurred. He would admit, that —lt might not be improper to mention, that he had
if the whole of the lands belonging to the city were lately received a letter from one of those respectable
sold, there would be means sufficient to pay the debt. individuals, informing him that the Hon. Member for
But was that any season why these self•elected per- 'Montrose (Mr. Hume) had himself declared to them,
sons should have squandered what the Kings of that he never meant to insinuate anything against
Scotland had endowed the Burghs with for ever? their honour--(Hear). After such a declaration, it was
He did not wonder that his Majesty's Ministers sup- somewhat singular that the Hon. Gentleman should,
ported the Magistrates of Aberdeen, for they had in that House, hazard aspersions that did reflect upon
followed their example of extravagance; indeed, the those Magistrates. In allusion to one part of the
inhabitants of Aberdeen had rather the advantage, Hon. Gentleman's speech, about the number of lode.
for if the whole fee simple of England were sold, he pendentvotes, he (Mr. Forbes) would be glad to know
did not believe it would liquidate the debt which the what chance the Hon. Gentleman would conceive he
Ministers had incurred. So that here wits an exem- had of being returned, if one vote, in the Borough of
plification of the old adage, " Birds of a feather flock Brechin for instance, were doubtful for the space of
together!" The Magistrates of Aberdeen would re• twenty-tour hours only ? He believed that the Hon.
ceive good support from his Majesty's Ministers; Gen leman would conceive his election to be very
but he exhorted the House to restore to the Burgesses much a matter of question. He begged, in conclusion,
those rights of which they were possessed till the year to say that he (Mr. Forbes) should always be ready
1659. One of the grievances in the Petition of Right in that House to take the part of any set of men, who,
in William and Mary's reign was, that the abdicated in their absence, were, as he conceived, unjustly and
Sovereign had subverted the rights of the Royal unfairly treated—(Hear).
Burghs. The Willie in Scotland was a judicial officer, Mr. HUME, in explanation, said, his Hoiiourable
besides having the management of the funds, and it Friend had entirely misunderstood him, if he sup-
was essential that they should possess the confi- posed that he had accused the Magistrates in question
dente and respect of the people. The want of that of peculation. On the contrary, he alluded only to
feeling caused the present Magistuacy to be re- what they declared to be the nature of the existing
garded in Scotland as a distinct set of persons.— system, under which, they said, it was almost impos-
If the people of Scotland had any influence at elec. sible for a man to act honestly. Now he (Mr. Hume)
tions, he would not say that all, but certainly a great observed, that, on their own shewing, it was to be in-
number of the Members from thence, would be on ferred that they must be knaves !--(A laugh, and cries
his side of the House. The Honourable Baronet (Sir rlf " Spoke, spoke !")
George Clerk) would not laugh if the elective Fran- Sir RONALD FERGUSSON conceived that the
chile were on a broader basis in the county which he Hon. Gentleman who spoke last but one (Mr. Forbes)
represented—(A laugh).—He (Mr. Hume) was an had very unjustly characterised the speech of his
example of what the people would do—(Laughter).— Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume), who had never said that
It was, no doubt, an ominous sound in the ear of his the Burgh of Aberdeen was bankrupt, but who con-
Majesty's Ministers. For twenty-five years, his self- tended that it was so far bankrupt as to have given
elected predecessor had backed them, and had got up its property to trustees. The Noble Lord (Bin-
some small things for himself; but no sooner had ning) had said, in answer to the speech of his Noble
his Majesty's Ministers given power to the people of Friend (Lord A. Hamilton), " Wait, Gentlemen, for
Montrose to elect their o. n Magistrate. (he thanked n
%Notes sake, for the Bill of the Lord Advocate; see
them), than he was returned, and there he wasl—(A what that will do." He (Sir It. Fergusson), for one.
laugh).—The Learned Lord had mistaken: there were could not wait, and he would tell the House wily—
five voters, and three had voted for him (Mr. Mime). because that Noble and Learned Lord seemed ro pro-
The Honourable Member concluded by declaring, pose to take no notice of the greatest evil complained
that as this was a step towards moderate Reform, and of, namely, self-election--(Hear, hear). Unless they
would give the people of Scotland a share in the Re- did away with that, the House would do nothing.
presentation, it should have his support. The Noble Lord was so horrified at the mere sound
Lord BINNING congratulated the House on the of " Reform," that he exclaimed, " Good GOD ! how
admission of the Hon. Member for Montrose (Mr. can people talk of Reform in those days, and over-
Hume), he could not call him the Member for Aber. throw the Constitution"—by giving something like a
deers,—(Loird laug,hter)—that this motion, if granted, little representation to the Scotch Burghs—(A laugh).
mast necessarily lead to a Parliamentary Reform of
Two Noble Lords on the other side of the House had
the state of Representation in Scotland—(Hear).— lately expressed their great admiration of old parch-
On all previous occasions they had been told that ments and old charte. s ; if they were so fond of these
municipal regulations for contreuling the corporate old documents, he wished they would look a little to
expenditure were alone sought. but that no political the old declaration, made by former Members of Par-
reform was intended. The Hon. Member, however, liament (Cheers), who had protested that they felt it to
disdained equivocation, and manfully avowed that be their duty to listen to the complaints of the people.
Parliamentary Reform in Scotland, which he had If, instead of searching into old parchments and
greatly at heart, was the effect which he anticipated charters, those Noble Lords would attentively exa-
from the present motion, if it succeeded—(Hear, mine the journals of the House, he thought they
hear).—Then he (Lord Binning) appealed to all those would employ their time much better. Last Session
who thought with him that the adoption of such a there were some fifty Petitions presented for a Reform
principle would open a door to what they feared in the Representation of the Scotch Burghs, and only
must eventually subvert the Constitution, to resi t at one against it ; only one, setting forth that the present
the outset such a proposition as this. The Hon. Mem- abuses formed the best of all possible systems. It was
ber was of opinion, that the constitution of these proper to be known, and lie believed he was correct
Burghs was the cause of the evil ; then why not wait in stating, that that one Petition was signed by the
until his Learned Friend's (the Lord Advocate's) butler, gardener, and coachman of one of the Ma-
Bill was prepared, to see if local abuses were not gistrates under whose auspices the Petition was brought
guarded against? The praposition of annual popu- forward—( Hear).
lar elections could certainly do little either to pre- Mr. MABERLEY conceived that a fair statement
vent a waste of the public money, or secure a due
had not been made to the House of the affairs of the
administration of justice, while it would violate the
Burgh of Aberdeen. They were not bankrupts,though
chartered borough rights, and abdicate the provisions
they had been considerably embarrassed. He had
of the Act of Union. The Noble Lord (inning)
reason to know that the Burgh was once nearly ap-
then reviewed the scale of expenditure alluded to .?in
proaching to bankruptcy ; but that, by good manage-
Aberdeen and Edinburgh, and while he admitted
the propriety of a strict controul over the corporation meat, its affairs had been re-established. He certainly
purse, he yet begged to point out that the expendi-
considered that, of the Burgesses of the Scotch Burghs,
cure complained of had been incurred in local im-
99 out of 100 were in favour of Reform—(Hear).
provements, and in making Edinburgh one of the . Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON, in reply, con-
finest cities in Europe. He entreated the House to :ended, that by .receiving the
.Report the House had,
in effect, admitted mark their sense of this first attempt to introduce the allegations of the Petitioners
Parliamentary Reform into Scotland—(Hear). to be true; and he was naturally induced to suppose
Mr. KENNEDY strongly urged the necessity of they would either devise some remedy for the alleged
evils, or grant a Committee to inquire into the best
adopting the present motion, to prevent tlie continu-
means to be adopted for their removal : but they had
since of the just complaints of the people of Scotland,
done neither the one thing nor the other. What he
and particularly against some of their own Members,
. now asked was, not that they should pledge them-
The Noble Lord's argument was curious—that be.
cause a measure might ultimately tend to a Parlia- selves to any specific measures of relief; but that,
having admitted the truth of the facts stated by the
memory Reform, no step should be taken
fi to rentedy
Petitioners, they would grant them a Committee for
a specific and intolerable grievance.
le admitted
h
the purpose of considering their case. There was a
that some of the smallest hit the Serge i. Boroughs
were hardly in a state to admit the prescribed relief:.
s sort of objection a hich the Noble and Learned Lord
had made to his (Lord A. Hamilton's) proceeding :
but were not the larger ones—Edinburgh, for in;
he said that there were other Burghs, besides the
stance, which had a population of 120,000 persons
Royal Burghs, in Scotland, where the same evils
He apprehended that it was by no means an
.unusual
existed, but which %sere not included in his (Lord A.
course, even in cases where the Reports were qutteas
, Hamilton's) proposed measure. If' that Noble Lord
voluminous as that which was now on the table,
. for
would institute an inquiry into their case, and bring
the Member from whom the subject under
Houseconsiders-1
I forward only one-half of the grievances -which had
tion had first emanated, to move that the
' been stated in the case of the Royal Burghs, he (Lord
should resolve itself into a Committee upon suLcihditte
, A. Hamilton) would very readily render him his as-
contendport. It was a little too much, for the Noble
sistance; but really, when, last Session, he undertoOk
that the Noble and Learned Lord's 13111,rando
to bring this subject forward, he did think lie had
none other, ought to be the ii.easure for the House
to adopt. In sitting down, it was impossible for him, undertaken a great deal end did the Noble Lord
i
it was a slight labour?) in taking in hand
and those Hon. Gentlemen who thought with him. 1 thisk

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'"PPIPIPTIF7F "7, -

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the sitrpilz Troiitittughl( Rear; Ater).•
Be was induced to mention this matter, because ke
had read a Somewhat siMilar kind of charge in •
Certain newspaper cared the iieste66—(lkar,thetil•—•
and which, therefore, though it might loot perhaps
Lire of iginated. immediately with he N. hie and
Learned Lard himself.i(Hear, hear)—Might passibly
.have been the pi oduction of some co-partnership—
(Hear, hearj—in that concerns Be that as it might,
the observations in question were altogether ura ppli.
cable to the matter mow beforethe /louses The Noble
Lord, after a variety of other observations, proceeded
to vindicate his c.nduet iii the Committee of last
Session) and :o declare that he should cet candy take
the sense of the House upon his motion; he should
ascertain whether they were disposed, not to adopt
any specific plan, but to go into a Committee, where
the matter might be fully and properly discussed I
or whether they would wait for the undefined, and
apparently most incomplete measure promised by the
Lord Advocate?
The gallery was then cleared for a division. On
the return of strangers) the numbers were found to be,
For the Motion 46 I Against it tH
Majority against it. 35.
IRISH TITHES.

Mr. GOULBURN requested that the Hon. Member IV!
Aberdeen would, as a matter of convenience to Ministers, post•
pone the motion relative to the Irish Tithe System, of which he
had given notice for Tuesday next, until some subsequent day.
Mr. BROUGHAM observed, that several Gentlemen who
intended to take a part In the discussion which WAS expected to
take place upon the motion which had been alluded to, might
'be compelled to leave town after the Ist or DI .rch I and be watt
therefore desimus that the Hon. Member (Mr. Hume) would
not consent to postpone bit motion beyond that day.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY hoped, that as Friday
wasa Supply day, the Hon. Member would fix his mallets for
Thursday, the 28th inst.
Mr. HUME said, that bethought it was impossible to bring
his motion before the House on Thursday as two motions, each
of which would occupy a considerable time, were already fixed
for that day. The motions he alluded to were that of the Lord
Advocate, upon the same subject which had.thet evening occu.
pled the attention of the House; and that of Mr. Hemet, refs-
' tive to the circumstances which attended the conducting of the
funeral of her late Majesty. Under these circum,tances, he
wished Ministers would make it convenient to meet his motion
upon the day for which it stood hied.—The motion therefore
stands for Tuesday next.

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ORDNANCE EsTIMATES6

Mr. WARD give notice, that he would bring the Ordnance
Estimates under the consideration of the House on Monday, the
11th of March.---Adjourned at a Quartet before Twelve.