Star.
London, England, 1807-08-11 00:00:00

MUSE OF COMMONS.

On the motion o('Lord CAS fI."REAOH, an Account Int
ordered of the Number of Tranfpurts in the fervice on the 14 of
March, 113-5, 39 alto on the 24th of March, 1807. Ihe accost
WAR afterw ,rds brought up.
On the motion of Mr. WHITBREAD, an Account wa.,. order.
ed of the number of Volunteer Serjeants, now acing as Await.
iug Seij,ants fur the line.
The Honk was informed. by a Meff:ge from the Lords, that
their Lore Maps had agreed to the Irilb Spirit Drawback Bill, and
fsveral rivate Bills.

t • eeittee of Finance. He declared that it was net
~e*eg to any re •;igence in the Committee, that this
Repert was not Bruner prefenred. It was evident,
thee it was too late to take . is Report into confider.
aline, ie he orefent feflion, hut he hid the eeti,eac.
tion 0 under •ending, that his Mejetty's Minitters
ijerfealy agreed vete the Committee as to the mea-
ifires that ..vonld be ernpofed next fellion in cenee.
',pence of it. He hoped it would he found, that the
Government of the country seneld aft in perfeet union
with the refolutions et that Houle, for foppreffing
ufelefs expenditure. After Rating, that the delay
proceeded principally fr rim the non arrival of the re-
turns from Ireland arid Seetlend. he moved that the
Report with the Appendixe, thereto, fhould be pint..
'ed, and ordered to lie on the table.
The metien was onanimoolly agreed to.
OFFICES Ia EFVERSION.
Mr. BANKES dared that it world not be necef-
.fary for him to detain the Houfe at any length, as
he fettrered himfelf that they would he unanimous,
En fnpport of the propofition he fhoold have the ho.
'emir to fubniit to them. As there exilled, however,
?citric dotihtcs not to fay ohjeetinns,as to the propriety
"cif the cootie that he was to profile, it became necef.
S. for him fhortly to take notice of thole doubts
Eery
and endeavour to remove them Illtngeth,:r. Some
perfnns had doubted whether the bill, which had
paired that Houfe, and was rejected in the Lords,
did not, in fume degree, trench upon the prerogative
of the Crown, and others doubted whether, on the
around of economy, the nation would derive any
benefit from adapting it, and whether it would not
hill have the fame falaries to pay. As to the Aril
objeetinn refpeeting the Royal Prerogative, fn far
from thinking that it would be impaired and trenched
upon by that bill, he confidered that it would he re•
tinted and flrengthened as loon as that bill fhould
fairly come into operation. By the prefent mode of
granting offices in reoterfinn, there was molt undue
anecipetion of the Royal Prerogative, which (ended
to weeper, and exhaust it. It was, therefore, decid-
edly his opinion that the royal prerogative would
gain new fir ength from the adoption of this ineaor re.
The raft was, for a gift in reverlion the obligation
was not felt fo Ilrnngly as for a place in aelual pnf
feflinn, and the gratitude for a favour which aepear-
ed vilionary, was not of the fame delciiptien. 'When
the rever lion fhould come into actual poffeffirin, he
confidered it as a fort of Yelled right, and no longer
acknowledged the favour. From there confiderations,
he was convinced that the benev 'knee and favour of
the Sovereign would be acknowledged with more
fircere gratitude, if the praelice of gr soei• g in re•
vertion wa, altogether done away, and pieces were
only to be difpofed of when they actually became
vacant. He fhould next obferve, that as to the rib
jeelion on the ground of economy, although the
laving might not he immediately felt, yet ultimately
it might, and probably would cattle a confidereble
laving. It was very well know o, that many of thole.
places which were in the contemplation of the -Crim•
mittee of Finance, had very large emoluments an-
nexed to them, although the duty, if any, was merely
trifling. It might very well happen, and it be
fuppofed that it would happen, that when come of
thole enormous finecure places lliould fall in, the
Houfe of Commons, proceeding up n the principles
which it had fanetioned in its Committee, might with
to recommend the fuppreffien of loch ()fete's place.
By the continuance of thole reverfionary grants, the
time for retrenchment of ufelefs expenditure was put
to a greater ditlance, and it was natural to fuppofe
the Committee and the Houle would proceed upon
the talk with great indifference, when they knew
that all thefe ufelefs places which they wifhed to have
fuppreffed, were already granted in revel-lion for two
or three young lives. It was upon thefe principles
which the Hoeft had eau', when it un.nitnotifly
agreed to adopt the bill which was propefed by the
Committee. It appeared, however, upon coafulting
the Journals of the Lords, that the consideration of
this bill bad been put off to a day fe clittant that
there was nn profpeet of its being carried in the courfe
of the prefect Salton ; and it had therefore happen-
ed that a bill, which had been unanimoully agreed
to by the Houfe of Commons, and had f'r its ohjea
the laying of the public money and the ltffening the
burdens of the people, was thus lott in the other
Houfe. Under thefe circumßances, it became his
duty to propofe to the Houfe lonic mode, by which
that refolution which appeared to them of fa meet(
importance, fhould be reconfilerrd by that Houfe
as well as by the other branch of the le- giflature.—
In comparing the different modes by which that was
to be done, it appeared to him that the bell mode
was for the finale to prefent an humble addrcfs to
his Majelly, praying him not to grant any place or
rffice in revel lien until nic weeks after the beginniee
of the next Sellion of Parliament. It appeared to
him that this was by much the molt tinehjeeti• leeagle
mode of proceeding, as it eves a matter of gr-:,t de
liracy for that Houle to appear, in the ilighteil de-
gree, to claim the exercife f the fonetions, which
belonged not to it exclufively, hut to the other
branch of the Leetiflature Alin. •l'he more attached
le was to the privileges and audio( ityofthat Heofe,
the more anxious be was to cher ifh fopport them
—the more he felt the necellity of its not Iteppiag
in any degree beyond the limits of its own peculiar
functions. He was therefore an xi ots that what was
done upon this occarien, lhould not appear to be
merely the ad of that Honk, and he therefore pre-
ferred the courfe that he fliould recernmend, to any
refolution of the Houfe, which might appear to he
made in oppotitinn to the decifien of the other Hetile
of Parliament. He only %%tithed that tire two linufes
thould reconfider the fubjeet early in the next &f-
-iron, and he would engage to fubmit the matter early
to the consideration of that Houle. FL cell dd cue by
rt-roviete,
"That an humble Addrefs he prerented to liiiNtijefly, requeft-
n that he would be gracinufly pk.ifed nit to grant aw; o,fiee.
Place, Employment, or Salary in rer.:rir.in, or for joint in
any part of the United Kingdom, tin it wuki a:ter the CJIII-
- of the next Sett in of Parliament "
On the SPEAKER'S pottieg the quellion, no
Gentleman role to oppnfe it, and it was evidently the
onanimoris fenfe of the Houee agree to it.
The Hon. Mr. WARD laid, that the unenimity
which feemed to prevail in the Houle, renderrd it
unneceffary for him to make many ebfervations, but
there were lime which he could not forbear from
making. Fie could not forbe.ar expreffing hi, forprize
and regret at finding that the result ofthe t. I i.L.0117S of
the Committee appointed to fearch the Lord,' j nr-
oeiss was the difcovcry that a i ill of Lin steateil.

public importance and !expeaktitin haA been fejeCted.
It was rather an uoufual thing, that a Bill which
had paired that Houle with.fircti a (lender oppofitiom
(au oppulition from the Mirtifterial Benches) or
without oppotition, (bruitf have been thus got rid of
in the (otter Houfe. What was the difproition of the
other Houle, or what motives could have influenced
their determination, it was no! poffible for this Houle
to know. Tirey knew nothing of the rejection, but
from the Relit rt of the Committee appointed to
fearch the Lords' journals. Ai to the details of that
proceeding, they were luppofed to know nothing, and
if by any indirect mean: they had fome fulpicion of
them, it woold be highly irregular to take notice of!
them in that Houle. He mutt therefore fuppofe that
this rejection took place after folemn deliberation, and
in a Houfe as lull as might be expeEted, upon a fuh-
jeCt of filch importance. He mutt roppore that his
Majelty's Minillers, whole peculiar duty it appeared
to be to attend on all great occafions, were then in
the Houfe. He was lure that, it thete had not been
a full attendance on fo momentous a queftion, the
confederation of it would have been adjourned. He
could not fuppofe they would have proceedea upon
it without the pretence of fume of thofe Miniflers,
whole abfence upon filch important occafions is
nil:ler-Ed a piece of infufferable infolerce.
Without knowing the reafons which occafiwned this
repletion, or to whom to ato ihote it, we might at
leall have the fatisfaftion of being lure that the mo-
tion for its rejection could not have proceeded from
any Noble Lord, who himfelf held an immenfe fine-
cure, which was formerly held in tevsrlion, and
which was again granted in reverfinn to one of his
family. (The allot .n appeared evidently to Lord
Arden, to whtfe finecure Mr. Perceval has the re-
ye:lion.) Neither could Inch a motion have been
reconded by another Noble Lord (Lord Melville)
who had alio a valuable contingent reverfion in his
family. Even if that could have been the cafe, their
authority wr.old have very little wei2ht with 4.00
Peers, for he could never fuppole that a Bill of filch
importance could he thrown out in a Houfe corn
paled of 20 or 22 Members. Notwithll meting the
grave dircu(Tions which mull have taken place in the
other Houfe, and the collective weight of the arittor
cracy of the country, he retained the fame opinion
that he had always done of the importance of the Bill,
and fhould cordially fooport the preen, motion
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
did nat will) to give any oppoli.ion to the piefent
Motion. He biro ever thought it neceltary for him
to Hate the grounds o Well induced him to accptielce.
This became the more necelTary as the c induct of
his Majesty's Minitlers in another place had become
the Inhjeft of the fevere anim tdvection •rf the Hon.
G.ortleman who fpoke la 4. In defence cf his Maje
il)'s Minifters he would fay, that perhaps the rubjeCt
did not appear to them to he rd that very great im
portance which was attached to it by the Gentlemen
who brought it forward. Some doubted much whe-
ther it was nor an atoidgement of the Royal Prern.
r gative, and others doubted whether it would be at
:all important with r facet to economy, as the fame
falaries would continue to he fill paid. For his part,
although he !fated thefe ae the doubts of others, his
own opinion was not involved in them. He did not
think the Bill injurious to the Royal Prerogative, for
the fame number of places remained, and the crown
would have hill the opportunity of difprifing of them.
The permanent exercife of the Royal Prerogative
would be rather frergthened by the Bill than weak-
ened. In point of economy, he doubted much whe-
ther it would at all diminith the burdens of the peo-
ple, as thole reverfions were often given to reward
fervices which midi otherwife be recompenfed in an-
other manner. The great places, filch as Tellerlhips,
were often given in reverlion to Chancellors, inflead
of that petition which they would otherwife have a
tight to claim, upon a change of Adminittration. If
it were affitmed that the Bill was really of that great I
importance that had been Hated, in that cafe, he
would allow that his Majesty's Minillers had been
very reprehenfible in nor being in their places; but it !
mutt be allowed to thofe who did not feel it in that
light to exercife their judgment. He c-nfefred that
tic Bill did not by any means appear fo important to I
him as it did to lone other Gentlemen, but as it did
not appear to him objectionable on any public ground !I
he had not given it any oppofition. He cettainly
fhoold have objected, on conilitittional grounds, to'
any refolutinn which wool.; appear like diftating to
the other branch of the Legit] attire ; but he confide-
red the m ,de purfued by his Honourable Friend
(Nlr.Bankes) as altogether unobjeftionable. As it had
alto been Hated that there might he a public laving
by the fuppreffion of thole places when they. (Mould
become vacant, it appeared to hien but reafonahle,
that f a import ant a queltion (broad not be prejudged,
nor the execution of it put off to a dittant day. The
Honourable Gentleman who fpoke tall (Mr. Ward)
had made limo litir ns which were certainly ingeni.
nos, and firialy parliamentary. When the Hon.
Gentleman, however, in his luppofed cafes confidered
the conduCt of Noble Perfons in the other Houfe as !
grofsly indecent, he could only fay, that there were
other perfons betides the Honourable Gentleman to
decide whether it was indecent or not. He could not
fee how the interelt of the Noble Perfon who moved
the reicelicn (Lord Arden) could he at all prejudi-
ced by this Bill, lor tune willows of the Bill never
talked of taking assay from any perfon what he al
ready had in polrefiton. He thetefore could not fee
any violation of decency in the Noble Perron alluded
to (Lord Arden) giving his opinion freely upon that
lubjea, as well at upon any other. That Noble Per-
im certainly had fome private converfation with him
upon the fuhjeCt. Each of them entertained differ-,
ent opinions, and were not c .nvinced by the argn-
' ments of the other, but he was extremely furprized
incited to find that Noble Perfon Hand fo forward in
the (v1)7.110,41 to the Bill. He was extremely forry
that it fhoold be conlidered that tl is (Trillion was
at all contemplated by him, or that he lhouLt be fup
poled to have taken any indite& means to influence
it. Before the relent motion was brought, he had
?oven his Honourable Friend (Mr. Banker) his altar-
ance, that even if he fhould not bring forward any
motion, the praflice of granting place. in reverfion
thould be dircontitmed uotit the fithjertt lb ruld come
again fairly before the conlideration of Parliament.
It the motion, however, appeared to him at ail to in-
erfe:e with the jolt refocitt due to the other b:anch of
flat Legillattre, he firould have refitted it ; but as it
appeared to lihn to have no loch character, he gave
it his forcer: fuppotts

Mr. BOUNltlitt 'expreled mach fat'aiaion at .
the fuppnet the Right Hon. Gentlemat, fectued to be
inclined to give to the principle of the Bill.
Lord EL PETTY alio teflifiedlatisfaetttn at hear-
ing that Government dii not mean to opoofe the
meafine which had nnanimoutly been votch.l ny .that
tiuufe ; but as the Right Hon. Gentleman had fla-
red that the motives of•hi; not oppt flog nt•iginated in
a feeling of indifference about the fubjea, he thought
it was necefftry for hien to make a few obfervatio'ns.
He gave the motion his fuppott, not merely became
he did not fee any particular obje6tions to it, hilt be
cattle he felt a deep fenfe of its inlFrta'ce• It in-
v •lved twrigreat and importantprir ciples. The first
was to prevent places fr.:m being imprapetly flied ;
and the fecnnd was to fupprefs thole that were alto-
gether 'lleitis. and merely a burden upon the c tun-
try. As to the firft principle, he mutt ob!erve, that
'one of the greatest checks to filling of places badly
was public notoriety. If offices were to be filled only
when they became vacant, the public opinion would
be formed as to the manner of their being filled up,
and the intenti n of the Government that recommen-
ded the perfons to he appointed ; but when offices
were given in reverlion, they were not only given
ufually from merit or from charafter, but merely
from th. filieita:ion of fome of thofe perfons who
furronnded every Government. In confequence of
the reverfions already granted, the bufinefs of re-
trenchment was neceffarily put off to a more cii.lant
day. This was peculiarly experienced in Ireland,
where the Duke of B.rdford found many lucrative
finecures fo given out in reverfion, that it was im
poflible for him to do the good he withed. The (late
ment which the Right Hon. Gentleman called inge
nious and parliamentary, appeared to him to be all)
...molt jut} and impreffive. The Right Hon. Gentle.
man contended, that a man in poffeffion of an enor-
mous finecure place, or who had already great re
verfions, might be frippored to fpeak in a manner
perfeEtly difinterefted. This was, however, affuming
what the Honfe had fofficient experience to deny,
that the pollen-ton of one or two reverfrms made men
gels anxious to grafp at a third—[Loud cries of Hear,
bear! from the Oppfition benrber]. He hoped the Houk
w mid never abandon this meafitre. He trutted it
world r again to the Haat of Lords in the next
Seffion, and that it would experience a better fate
than it had in the prefent Seffion.

Sir JOHN SEBRIGHI' Chord), declared his full
approba,ion of the principles of that Bill, which had
been reje6Ted in the other Houle.
Mr. WHITBREAD could not avoid expreflifig
his fetlings, which he found to be fomewhat different
from thufe of his Hon. Friend's. When the Right
Hog. Geritleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
fuffered the Bill to pafs that Houle without the fliyhtelt
oppofition, he did confider that his filence, and the
filer.ce of his Friends, was an acqiiiefcence and a
pledge on the part of the Government to fupprm t the
Bill. He alto confidered, that the Government was
pledged in a manner [fill more explicit, by the fpeech
which Miniflers put into the month of the King at the
opening of the prefent Parliament. That fpeech
praifed the labours of the Committee of Finance, and
yet it was known at the time that this was the only
meafure which the Committee of Finance had then
propoled. If then, the Right Honourable Gentle-
man fhould nosy tell the •Houfe that Minifters confi-
dered this as a mere milk and water meafure, that
would neither do good nor harm, why did they be.
fotie think it neceffary to make it a part of the King's
Speech ? It did appear as if, !ince that time, I.•me
fecret influence had been ufed to alter their opinions.
It appeared as if come notice had been given to them,
that the mealtime would be difagreeable to fomebody
or fomewhere. It was a little extraordinary, that
the Lord Chancellor, who fpoke that fpeech, as
coming from his M:jefly, fhould have been one of
thole who moil warmly oppofed a meafure recom•
mended in the very Speech which he had delivered
at the opening of the Sefli an. It was laid by f one,
that this Bill rellrained the prerogative. If that were
tine, it would be no objeaion in his mind, for he
would rather that the prerogative was put under pro.
per reflraints, than that it fhould be exercifed im-
properly, and to tle detriment of the na7irin. He
could nit confider the rejeCtion of this Bill in the
light of an ordinary rejection of a Bill. The prefent
Bill related to the retrenchmeots of public expendi
tore, to the public purfe of which the Houfe of Com-
mons was peculiarly the guardian; and to that allevi-
atir n of the burdens of the people, which might re-
concile them better to the new burdens that might be
laid upon them. He thought it therefore incumbent
noon the Houle of Commons to thew to the other
Houle, that they would perfevere until the objeCt
was obtained. No Sefli in ought ever to pals over
without this Bill being again fent to the Lords. lie
agreed moll cordially in the mction which had been
made.

The queftion was then put from the Chair, and
the Addrefs was voted nem. con. It was ordered to
be prefented by loch of the Members as are of his
Nl.4jelty's Privy Council.

Mr. FOSTER moved, that the further confideration of the de•
hate on the Pungarvon Kecognizances he returned which was or-
d:Ted ; and a very long deiultory couverfation enfucd, on the
quellion whether any further time Ihould he allowed, in which
Mr. Potter, and the Chaucellor of the Exchequer fpuke ia favour
ol'the Petitioner btirg allowed till Saturday fe'onight ; Mr. l'on•
fonhy, Mr. Whitbread, Mr. P. Moore, Mr. Windham, and Lord
Folk antic againft it.
A division took place, and the Gallery was cleared —Ayes 65...
N.JCS 45.—Majority 21.