Star.
London, England, 1812-01-28 00:00:00

AMERICA.

Mr. WHITBREAD gave notice, that on 'Thursday .e night
he ~lusuta move for copies of ail correspondence between this
Country and America, down to the latest period to which ths
same could be nt;v4.e our.

'I he Xi,So peo Exchequer Bills Bill, and the Bill foe raising
1:10,e00,0c0, were conatt.ned, and ordered to be reported to•
mot rosv. _ _

Mr. BANKFS moved for the appoin•ment of a Committee to
cons3der the public a Spey diture of the Country ; and what places
and offices in eht he abolished with safety to the public service.
Ordered —*l he Honourable Gentleman then said, that after tl
Con mittee should make a rrpo:t, he wieild move for a Bill,
lounged on the re ,o mum. of i RIO, relanve to Sinecure Offices.

Mr. CREEVEY gate no•ice, that to..mcrrow ►ennight
w. old call the at•etr.ion of the House to that part of the eublis
Revenue tntit.td the 4 per Leta-.

BRIDGE OVER THE EDEN.•

The Report of the Committre of Supply, voting sums for
various services, was brought up. On the reading of the resolu-
tion for granting £lO,OOO tow.trls the erea:on of Cumberland
Bridge,
Mr. GILES opposed the grant, :s a useless berthas on the
Public.
Mr. WHARTON defended the grant, because the brides
wou'd afford a great acccimmodatiat to. England and Scotland.

Mr. Wl-1111;1t E AD could not bce any necessity for the /Mdgst,
and he would oppose the present grant.
_ _

Sir J. G RAliqhl ratd:t he oldiindge was hardly wide enough
for a carriage to pass; and as the 'Lew liiidge would be a great
public accommidation, he thought the great, r part of the expect*
ought to be bottle by the Public.
Mr. S. SU MNEIt opposed the giant.
A division then took place, whim there appeared--For am,
Qucs:ion, 88—Against it, 40.--Majority, lg. •
liiS MAJE.STY'S IIOUSEtiOLD.

When stranger; were re-admitted,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
had proposed to refer cett.t:n Papers to the
tionconsiders-
,,mrniitee on the 8.11 for regul ding um
fututi:l theeesttb hment of his Majesty's Household. and
was proposing that the House should then go into a
Committee.

Mr. 'YIERNEY immediately rose and opposed dig
Speaker's leaving the Char, on the ground that sum.
cient information was not before the House to enable
them to come to a right' understanding of the clues.,
tion, and make such a full report as would satisfy this
Public. In order that proptr inform iti. n might' be
a4ordc.l, he would suggest some distant day for the
House wing into the Committee. He was tree to.
confess, that, for his part, .Ificr perusing the
he was not in a situation to comprehend thrOg
and he believed that nrany other gentlemen were nos
aware of the whole bearing of it. A variety of papers
had been laid Cli the table, and it might be espeoesi
that he should be prepared-- as far as they went bei
was prepared—but he should only waste the limo!
the House was he to offer any obserratim npa
detached papers, and therefore be should rersaiia 611

p

I

the whole necessary for the elucidation of the subject
were in the hands of the Members. He could not see,
from the papers already produced, any thing which
could enable him to make up his mind. They had

been undoubtedly very liberally provided by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, and he did not mean eo throw
blanie upon that Right Hon. Gentleman for the man-
ner in which they were drawn up, but he wanted to
know if any means could be devised of abridging the
. amount of the annual expenditure of the Civil List,
without, at the same time, diminishing the splendour
of the Monarch ? There was no person, he trusted,
would believe of him, that in expressng a wish that
the Civil Lift should not be liable to excess c expen-
diture, lie meant to abridge the comforts or the neces-
sary splendour which should at all times appertain
to Royalty. The public, however, were led to believe
that When the arrangements were made in 1804, care
had been taken that no future excess should arise.—
The first question which presented itself would be,
was the expenditure of-1804. warranted ? When Gen-
tlemen considered that at that time the House acted
upon an estimate which they were given to under-
stand would, as far asit related to the department of
the Lord Steward, comprize the full amount of the
outgoings. and voted in conformity with that estimate
the sum of £65,000 as sufficient for that purpose, it
was not a little extraordinary, that upon referring to
the papers, the result of the expenditure of that year
was a sum of £84,000. He did not mean to say
that any thing unfair had been going on in that de-
partment to occasion the excess, but it had the effect
of shewing, that little reliance WAS to be placed upon
estimates. There was also an extraordinary paper
relating to the disbursements to Foreign Ministers,
the items of which he did not charge as being unjust
—but when he moved for the papers on the subject,
the accounts were never clearly understood, except
by the Committee up stairs, and it was requisite that
the House should know what vouchers were before
that Committee to enable them to come to a just
conclusion. The account was certainly correct in
figures and detail, but it wanted information.—
Now in 1804, the House was told that £lO,OOO
was all that would be required for the purpose
of disbursements to Foreign Ministers. The pa-
pers chewed that £83,000 had been expended.—
This might be all right, but it seemed extraordinary
that an estimate so short of the actual sum expended
should be given in. With respect to the Chamber-
lain's accounts, he should not offer any observations,
his object being that the nature of the Civil List ex-
penditure sheuld be referred to a Committee, so as
on lite:r report the Hopse should not only be enabled
to act liberally, and with honour to the Crown, but
Also in•atich a manner as to satisfy the country. Al-
though he ( Mr. Tierney) was an advocate for the
strictest practical Economy, he wits not disposed to
drive it to extremes. He thought, however, regula-
tions might be adopted more palateable to the coun-
try, because the country must desire information upon
the subject ; that the expenditure of the year exceeded
the estimates, was what called for explanation, and
explanation satisfactory to the country. It was with
that view, among many others, that he was induced
to oppose the going into the Committee for the pre-
vat. He not only had these objections on account
of the want of information in the papers on the table,
but he also conceived the Bill was not such. a Bill as
should pass. He knew the odium which might be
cast upon him for this opinion unexplained, and he
knew that he was liable to have his opinions misre-
presented out of doors. In saying that the Bid ought
net to pass, he meant that it was composed of such
materiels as ought to preclude the House from enter-
reining.it. As to that part of it which related to the
dispension of Its Majesty's private property, 1:0 in-
struction had been given to the Corninittce as to pro-
posing any thing about the private property ; he had
dottb.s Loo as to the propriety of the House legisla-
ting on the subject. Ot the accumulation of that pro-
perty for years he would-say nothing, but he would
say that Parliament ought not to be called upon to
recognize any private property as belonging indivi-
dually to his Majesty. By a clause in the Bill, three
Commissioners mere to be appointed to regulate that
property, and these Commissioners were to have a
salary each of £lOOO per annum. Now it would
be for the House to consider e hat the amount of
that property in the hands of his Majesty must be which
could attord to pay £3OOO a-year for the mere audit-
ing of the accounts—(Hear, hear.) In making these
obsetvatioes, he did net wish to enquire into or say
any thing on the subject, which could in the smallest
degree effect the feelings of any one branch of the
Royal Family; but he must object to the interference
of Parliament, and much more so to the appointment
or the Contissioners, because they were to be sworn
"not to betray the secrets of the Prison House."—
This property was in effect Crown property, and not
meant to be private property. In discussing this
part of the subject, he was conscious of the delicacy
bf his situa'ion, and that he was speaking of things
pot ordinarily within the view of Parliament—that
he was consequently liable to misinterpretafon, and
in
.some quintets of wilful roisinterpretetion ; he
therefore wished that those Royal Personages most
Interested were present in the House to hear his sen-
timents. He was anxious that every syllable he ut-
tered should be dealt out with becoming respect to
the Monarch and those nearest concerned, and at the
same time he should not consent to give more than
was consistent with the circumstances and honour of
the count' y. With this impression, he hoped the
House would allow him to go rather more into detail
than he otherwi,e should have gone ; and he .ehoUld
not have done so were it not a question of the grea-
test importance in every point of view. The Bill
prefessed to be " a Bill for the due arrangement of
his Majesty's Household, and fur the resumption (if
fortunately that period should arrive) of the Royal
Authority." Now the House would consider the cir-
cumstances under which the Bill so framed came for
discussion. An Act' passed for settling the Regency
for twelve months under certain restrictions, which
Act had very nearly expired. The restrictions con-1
tained in that Act were such as the Prince of Wales
felt, were net only painful, but injurious and insult-
ing to the character of his Royal Highness. Since
the passing of that Act, up to the present moment,
his RoyaleHighness had conducted himself in such
a manner as not only to call forth the admiration of
the country, but also to remove any suspicion, if any
man had suspicion Inrking in his mind at the time
the Act passed, that his future conduct would not be

. 7

7

T

regulated in the sante manner—(Hear, hear.) The agree to provide otherwise than sufficiently and consider it in any other point of viol. If this als
whole of his Royal Highness's conduct had been di-' abundantly for the maintenance of his Majesty befit- not a separate Court, he would wish to know toe,
meted by attention to the comforts of his Royal Fa.; ting his station. Without farther information he was. His objections to such a system were \
seen
could not proceed. The disposition and arrangement
ther, and which had on all occasions done credit to in every view of it ; for, supposing the Prince and
himself, and would give the lie direct to any insinua- of the Privy Purse formed one of the main objections that Coen to pull together, it would operate as 4
tions to the contraty. There was nothing in his which he had to the Bill. The House must recollect great increase of the influence of the Crown. The
Royal Highness's past conduct that could lead to a i that in making these arrangements they wets making Prince would of necessity supply all those I
paces fet
suspicion, that if he was clothed with full powers I them for a new Reign. It was his wish that his himself which were already filled for his Majesty,
he would abuse those powers. What was the return I Royal Highness should ascend the Throne not only; Sopposing, on the other hand, that political ddie.
which his Royal Highness met with ? By this new 1 with the confidence, but with the blessings of the rences should arise, and he was sure no others mild
Bill he was to be treated as a person not fit to be l people. The Right Honourable Gentleman had said (even that supposition was highly improbable), to
trusted—as if he had not atoned for any supposed or I that the sum of £70,000 was to be placed in the what a situation would the Prince be reduced with
imaginary errors by the rectitude of his conduct, and ! hands of the Prince "to meet certain .eneagentestes a Court in opposition—(Hear, hear, hear.) Thew,
consequently had not wiped off that dark disgust 'of honour." What did the Honourable Gentleman ground that he could see for all this was, a woe fir
which had dictated the measure twelve months since. I mean ? Did he mean that his Royal Highness had continuing the system of the last year, a system ,1,
(Hear, hear, rom Me Ministerial Benches, accompanied certain debts to discharge, for he cou'd mean no- distrust. He was warranted in calling it a ayssea(4
:s
with a smile I) The Right Honourable Gentleman ' thing else. What those engagements .were, to be distrust ; for it was evident, though his Royal Hiiia.
seemed amused with these opinions, but he (Mr. T.) ' sure, he did not know, unless they related to ness was not in a situation to speak his mind ea::,'
did not see much of comicality in them, and he would debts. If so, and those debts were thoroughly sifted, through the medium of Ministers, that he thcughta.,.
endeavour to convince the Right Hon. Gentleman his Royal Highness would not be found subject to The object of the Ilill was to make her Majesty a
so. In considering the Act, he must make two as- any other observation than that he had not acted upon substantive and separate character, and to invest ken
sumptions. In the fist place, that it would in sub. ; all occasions with due propriety ; that in some instan- West), with a power which she ought not to em.
stance place his Royal Highness on the throne per. ces negligence might be imputed to his conduct, and —.-( Hear, hear.) He had confined himself is saw
manently, (in the event that what all desired did net in others the charge of prolusion. He should not act he had said to the principle of the Bill. If he too
fortunately happen) and that it would make such ar- either as the friend of his Royal Highness or the peo- to act merely from his own opinions, he wood eys,
rangements that his Majesty might, if happily he ple, if he did not say these o engagements" cif which pose the Speaker's leaving the Chair altogether, a
could, resume the Royal Authority. Secondly,— the Right Honourable Gentleman talked ought to be order to get rid of the Bill ; but, lest he should elk.
That his Royal Highness ceases to be Prince of stated fairly, and in an open manner to the House— ject himself to misconception or misrepresentation die
Wales on that assumption, and of course whatever ( Hear, hear !) If it was intended to repose confidence a subject of this kind, he opposed it conditionally
was vested in him as Prince of Wales, was at an end in the Prince, and hail him as the future Sovereign, with a view to the future appointment of a Comae:
also; that is to say, the Executive Government let the House act liberally—pay his debts—(Jlcer, tee for the purpose of considering the various peas
' would be entirely in him. The principles which he hear!) He knew that in thus seeaking out be Was connected with the establishment of the Royal feati.
had assumed would be violated by this Bill ; for the peihaps net seeking popularity. He cared not for Mr. G. JOHNSON thought Parliament wood
last year the country only recognized one Coart.— the interpretation which might he put upon his con- not do its duty if it poeceeded upon the Bei as it
Parliament were now called upon to establish two duct, or whether he offended high or low—he still now stn od. Having before them informatioa teat
Courts. With respect to tee establishment of these must say, th it unless the debts were disgiacefuily I the Civil List was not equal to the purposes for stoat
Courts, many Gentlemen who had not heard the contracted, Parliament ought to pay them—( Hear, it was granted, I c was erepared to contend, if thee,.
speech of the Right Honourable Gentleman in de- hear !) There was nothing, in his opinion, mote den- penditure were crow:wed with what it was fnimetly,
tailing the plan, would be totally in the dark. It was gerous to the Monarchy. than to have it understood and the different value of mole), were considered, a
proposed to vote £70,000 per annum in addition, in the country that his Royal Highness had engage- is ould appear, it did not exceed what it was in the best
and to make his Royal Highness a present of ments which were of such a nature as not proper to times of the Constitution —in the reigns of lung we,
£lOO,OOO annually. Now, when he asked explanation be laid before Parliament. It was not considered ham and Queen Ann. He lamented that when the .
on this subject, how would he-be answered ?—Why, monstrous to pay the debts of his Royal Father, revision of the Civil List took place in 1801•, sued.
the Right Hon. Gent. had stated, as he understood because they were contracted in providing that ent provision had not then been made to answer all
the plan, it was this :—His Majesty had a Civil List splendour necessary to the support and maintenance the demands which might be made on it. He ce.
Revenue of €950,000, (putting out of the question of the dignity of the Crown. The objection might jetted to the system of ming off arrears from the
the revenues arising from the Duchies of Cornwall be taken, if his Royal Highness remained in the Droits of Admiralty; but for that resource Mee
and Lancaster) ;out of that List he proposed to give station of Prince of \Vales, but when he ceased sters would have more carefully watched over them
£60,000 tothe Prince of \Vales y• he would therefore to be Prince, then the question assumed another penditure. It had been said, the House had no rig .
have at his disposal an available income of about aspect. Was his conduct to be held up to the to examine into those resources from which the auras
£900,000. Of that sum it was proposed to take country in a variety of points of view, which he would were paid. Mr. Burke's Bill provided even far the
8170,000,name1y,8100,000 fur his Majesty's House- abstain from touching upon ? In times like these it board wages of his Majesty's servants. Would it 1
hold, 560,000 for his privy purse, and 410,000 for was not prudent to pursue any course which might be then be contended, that the House was not comps.
her Majesty's use. This gross sum of £170,000 de- dangerous to the Monarchy. He must call to the re- tent to enquire into the application pf a fund amount, ,
ducted from the £900,000 would leave a clear in- : collection of the House that clause in the Bill which ing to £8,000,000 ? He agreed with Mr. T. the i
come 01R-130,000. Tnis was one side of the question. ! noticed the excess in the Civil List eXi enditure of the influence given to her Majesty by this Bill ds.
•
On the other it was proposed to add the sum of £121,000 annually, en the average, since 1804. If it mended serious attention. It would give her an is.
570,000, which would brine it to RBOO,OOO, to which was right to pay that excess, and he did not question it, fluence over nine Peers and four Commonete—
must be added also, 850,000 to be given to his Royal would it not be equally an act of justice to discharge I ( Hear, hear.)—He also thought the three Commis.
Highne‘s as Prince of Wales, making in the whole these" engagements ?" It was len dealing justly by stoners who were to superinteiui the private property
£850,000, leaving the Civil List Revenue in the the Prince to say that his debts had already been paid of the King should be disqualified from sitting in Par.
hands of his Royal Highness, 850,000 less than what by the public. They were not paid by the public, liement.—( Hear, hear.)—The House should never
his Royal Father enjoyed. Now, whether the sum' but by reserving for that purpose a part of his Royal lose sight of one grand object, namely, fixieg tie
so proposed to be given was enough to maintain the Highness's income, which was regularly paid up to Civil List expenditure at a specific sum, and to ten.
dignity of the Sovereign, he could not say, and there- 11804, wanting about two years of the time of COM- der Ministers responsible for any excess of it. ?4r. J.
fore it was necessary the House should be informed. ' piecing payment of all the demands. The Right Hon. then adverted to the grant made out of the Civil
It had been stated too by the Right Hon. Gentle. Gentleman recommended to the House the necessity List of ,C7OOO in 1810 to Sir Sidney Smith, for se-
man that his Royal Highness would defray the ex- lof placing the establishment upon some footing with vices performed in 1798. He did not mean to say
pence of the Windsor establishment when there, out respect to arrangement, which might conduce to the that gallant Officer was not deserving such reward,
of the Revenue thus appropriated for his purpose ; . honour and satisfaction of those who gave, and of but he mentioned it to shew that as soon as a check
but with respect to Carlton House, there was no pre- those who received. With respect to the proposition was taken off the Civil List expenditure, and it aro
cise information given ; without full information, the for the care of the Princesses, namely, that in town found possible to provide for its excess fronka contio
House would, by passing this Bill, run great chance his Royal Highness was to provide the establishment . gent fund, caution ceased to guide those who had the
of deceiving the country, as was the case in 1804, and for them, and in the country, her Majesty ; that was isposal of it, and then they first thought of reward.
, seeing how injurious that precedent was, it was a propesition which met his decided disapprobation. ia '
ing services performed 12 years before. He should
dangerous for the House to act upon it. Besides, An establishment ought to be folmed separate for the not vote against the Bill, but hoped the provisions of
' the House was called upon now to make a new Princesses ;—they were arrived at an age when it it would be extended to all these objects.
Civil List fur what he must consider a new reign.— became necessary ; but the whole of the arrange- Mr. M. MONTAGUE said, a great part of tie
The Prince at present enjoys a revenue of 5120,000, ments carried w i:h them the air of !uspicion. Is uas i sum given to Sir S. Smith, had been paid by that
of which £50,000 is in this new order of things to be tee a little extraordinary that the (snips lion. Gentle-1
Pehlic were still in debt to him fie all the expences Gerd man out of his own pocket ; and, in fact, the
deducted, and then a sum of £70,000 annually will man refused to come forward with a permanent regu- I
remain in his hands, which after deducting the lation, especially of convening the Court of Lieson to the Brazils. when all were ready to baar the '
550,000 to be applied to the Civil List, would leave a burdens which must be imposed, with cheat fulness. ' Mr. G. JOHNSON explaieed. He did not say it
balance of £20,000 over this 870,000. Parliament, What other object could the Right Hon. Gentleman was not fit the sum should he paid, but he thought
as the Bill proposed, was not to have controul ; that have in view, in thus legislating from Year to year, if it was due to him, it was unjust in the pubiic to
his Royal Highness would administer it faithful:), but this : to keep his Royal Highness every year un- ! withhold it from him so long.
and duly he had not the least doubt ; but notwith. der restrictions, in order that he might he induced to Sir T. TUR.TON did nr t object to theanincipleof
standing this opinion, still he must consider the pro. give something to his Ministers. (Moe, hear.)— the Bill, hut was much disott seed iveh the d scument
position as a monstrous one, which called a Pallet. But lie (Mr. '1 ierney) wished to see him relieved which had been laid before the House, and ciold net
ment to vest so Loge a sum as £70,000 annua ly from his embarrassments, not by prrenting any lavish ! agree to going into a Committee on the bll till the
without any sort of controul. Not only this part of grants, but by giving to his Royal Highness what accounts tied undergone the Invectiption of a Corn.
the arrangement was objectionab'e, but many others. this House ought to give, and which, when given h.; mittee above-st irs a be thought there were items at
In her Majesty was to be vested the controul over beraily, might settle els embairassments effectually. these accounts, which, if investigated, would render
the £170,000 to be applied for his Majesty's House- Was it too Much to say that he was mistrusted %silo the additinual gratis of ,e 70,000 unnecessary: he pat.
held. There were to be two privy pulses, one took r was not allowed the management of the servants ne- ' ticulerly alluded to the item under the head of D pia
her Majesty's directions, the other under the controul cess try to his royal father ? Would not any son in ! matey, which, in ISO+, when we had several Foreign
of the Prince Regent. That of the Prince Regent the humble conditions of life suppose so ? Weatid ! Ministers, was fixed at £62,000 ; in 1811, when we
of R 60,009, was correct dad proper :but with respect
he not consider himself ill treated by the adoption of bad none, it amounted to seleS,ooo ; he alluded to
to the R 70,000 for his Majesty's use, he saw no just such unnecessaiy ; and suspicious arrangements ? But the expellees of the mission of the Marquis Welleski
grounds, because his Majesty would not administer was there any advantage likely to accrue to his Ma.' to Spain, which amounted to £16,000.
the Government. By this arrangement, what would jesty from it ? Assuming the fact that his Majesty , Mr. WHITBREAD said, di it the public were
become of Mr. Burke's bill ? If the privy purse of did require a Lord of the Bedchamber, a Groom of indebted to Sir S. Smith for services, no one could
his Royal Highness, for instance, was not to be sub- the Stole, and the Equerries formerly in attendance, deny ; but there was another debt due to him OM
ject to controul, then his Royal Highness would have what was there to prevent the Queen from asking namely, an explanation, that an application to Polio
conveyed to him a sum of 4130,000, with the fell those Officers from the Prince Regent ? Could ment, even for a lager sum than e 7,000 would hare
knowledge and approbation of Parliament. Her any one suppose that lie would refuse them ? Was been receives. No one can doubt, it would not hen
Majesty would also have £35,000 deducted from the there any difficulty in her Majesty's dcmapding been granted by vote, but by acclamation.—(Her,
privy purse of his Majesty, the residue being reserved the attendance of those servants who were known hear!)—To the Marquis Wellesley, also, an expbna•
for the payment of the Medical Establishment, which to be most in the favour of his Majesty ? The tion was due, as it appeared, that after all the pre-
might perhaps amount to but a trifle, and the balance Queen had the whole management of the Household parations had been made by the public, a further eo
would be conveyed to these three Commissioners., ' for the last year, but where was the advantage of that? pence of ,e 16,000 had been incurred for his mission.
The House must see, under the proposed arrange. what was the fact ?Up to July last, a few Lords in i (Hear, Bear! from the Treasury Bench.)—If he en
ments, in how very extraordinary a light the matter , waiting, a few Equerries, &c. were deemed necessary; wrong, an explanation was more necessary ; and till
stood—recollecting always, that the Privy Purse did but sin:e that period the opinions of the Physicians an explanation was given, he could not consent to
not of right belong to the man, but to the office, and went entirely to shew that they were no longer want- the Speaker leaving the chair. It was said the error
in this case would be vested in the person who could ing. But where, he would ask, was the necessity for of the Civil List was £124,000 per annum • but no
not administer the Government. Ho might be charg.' a separate Court?—(Hear, hear)—For a Court not account how these arrears arose was laid before the
ed with taking captious objections—but was this a ' responsible ; fora ourt, whose expences were not House. It was said this was a Bill to provide for the
captious objection ? He did not object to the entire I cognizable by the Treasury ? and was not such a ' care of his Majesty's person ;he denied that it was so
sum of R 170,000, because, with the information be. ! court created lay this Bill ?By it the sum of €llO,OOO That was the title of the Bill, indeed ; but it was, in
fore him, he did not know whether that sum was too I was put under the .controul of the Queen. Four effect, intended to create a separate influence—it
much or too little. Was it to be understood, that all ; Lords of the Bed-chamber were granted to her, a ' was to create two Courts ; and if these two Coons
the charges would remain on the Privy Purse to be , Groom of the Stole, and, altogether, twenty-one Offs. drew together, they would increase the influence of
held by her Majesty, because if so, the Regent would I cers were at her disposal for the maintenance of the the Crown to a dangerous height ; if they drew coie
stand with £130,000 at his disposal, and her Majesty I dignity of the King. It ought to be recollected, in toffy ways, they would retard- the wheels of Govan"
have a sum of 470,000 for the Medical Attendants. I the mean time, that under the former arrangement, ment. On this ground, therefore, he opposed the ball
With the knowledge of the enormous amount of pri- when his MOjesty Was happily enabled to perform Why not transfer the whole Civil List to his Rays(
vote property he could not consent to vote such a I the duties of a Monarch, the Queen's establishment Highness, and leave him to provide for the comfort
sum. But suppose the fact was not so, and that only reflected a splendour on that of the King ; in and splendour of his Father, the House providing a
£35,000 should remain at her Majesty's disposal for short, the operation of each was reciprocal ; but, un- fund to enable him to do so. The House was told the
the purposes before stated, how could so large a sum , der the arrangement now proposed, the Queen's Prince wanted £70,000 a-year, because he Ives 1°
be necessary ? Prove it, and no man would more " Establishment was separated from that of the Prince debt, yet the House had had no communication from
readily vote it ; but he could not give his consent to' Regent. He had no hesitation to call it a different the Prince that such debts did exist ; and till hello)
such a vote while there existed the possibility of its, Court ; for, with all the different officers included in such communication in an officialshape, be wouldnot,
being applied to the increase of private property.--1 the Bill with the Pages of the back stairs and the as a Member of Parliament, believe there was Oil
He could not with regard to the public interests Pages of the froot stairs, it was utterly impossil4e to debts in existence • sknri tberefige that khe /70,000 PP
•

•••
This might be
that an estimate
should be given
lain's accounts,
his object being
penditure shr)u
on titer report
to act liberally,
Also in•such
though he (Mt
strictest practic
drive it to extre
Lions might be
try, because the
the subject ; ciao
the estimates,
explanation sat:
that view, amcy
to oppose the g
sent. He not I
cf the want cf i
but he also coal
Should pass.
c.tst upon him
knew that he et
presented out c
not to pass, he
materials as ou
taining.it. As
dispension of l
struction had
posing any this
dottb.s too as I
•
zing on the sub
pelt>, for years
say that Parl4
recognize any
dually to his NI
Commissioners
property, and
salary each cf
be for the Ho
that property in
could attord to
ins of the acco
obs2tvatioys,
any thing on tl
degree affect I
Royal ;
of Parliament,:
or the Commis,
!4' not to betray
This prcperty
meant to be
part of the sub]
bf his siluarion,
pot ordinarily .1
he was consequ
in
_some quail
therefore wishe
interested were
timents. He 1
tered shouid
the Monarch al
same time he s
was consistent
the count, y.
House would a
than he otherw
not have done
test important
prciessed to be
his Majesty's I
fortunately tha
Authority."
cumstances un
discussion. A
for twelve mo
Act had very
tained in that
felt, were net
ling to the cha
the passing of
his Royal•Hii
a manner as n
the country, b
man had sus'
the Act passe,

P

atmwas intended to be applied to raise an Undue
hlllnence for the Crown. It war said, that his Royal
to ive up £50,000 out of his Ex-
treeless was ready g.
tbettu—l Incbme to the Civil List —lsis Royal Highness
hod—nee:told them so. Indeed there had been no mes.
dee delivered to the House, and of that he corn-
-01-/ned . But, assuming the fact—the Prince was
ofeemg W—
h2 t he had not to give—hie whole income
s paid out of the Civil List, and on that being
would all merge into it. These
soled to him,
Ire some of the reasons he had for opposing the
Speaker leaving the Chair. But he also objected to
she Bill itself; for although the title was goed, the
• ciplewas so bad as; would induce him to withhold
ba assent to it altogether.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the question was, whether the House, atter the
objections which had been made to the Dill, would
ieel itself justified in proceeding with it without more
wiled inquiry ? If the House
.were satisfied that
no Ditch was not proposed to he granted by this Bill,
bethought there would be no reason for that detailed
layeStigatio2 ; and so far from that being the case,
Gentlemen had expressed their fears lest the proposed
grain should not be equal to the expenditure. The
Rd), Gentlemen (Mr. Whitbread and Mr. Tierney)
bad adverted to the increaseunder the head of Foreign
His ion!. The fact was, the missions now undertaken
vise generally special ; such had been the case with
sefect to Lord Wellesley's mission. It had been said
that4lie sum here expended was very large for the
one, butthe shorter the time of the mission, the larger 1
is proportion must be the expence. (Hear, hear) The
. Gentleman had also said an explanation w.:s
Joe to Sir S. Smith. He (the Chancellor of the Ex- I
dxguer) thought sufficient had been said to satisfy
the Gentleman—(Hear, hear)—but if the Hon.
Gentleman wished for further information he might
bare it (Hear, hear.) He could, however, take
open him to say not a farthing had been paid to Sir
~Smith as a remuneration for services.—Did the
lion. Gentleman say that sum was an extravagant
tot for the services performed by Sir S. Smith on
ne coast of Syria and Egypt ?—(Thar, helr, from the'
(rhivilion.) Gentlemen seemed to say it was not ;
ties why should the proceeding in the present Bill
besnspended for the purpose of justifying Sir S.
smith's conduct ; when no justification, it was agreed
mall sides, was necessary— (hear, hear.) With re-
spect to the grant to Mr. Arbuthnot, to Sir A. Paget,
&c. would the Hon. Gentleman say, it would be
consistent with the honour of this great nation, that
perms engaged in foreign missions should have their
pirate fortunes ruined by losses they sustained in
tem—(Hear, hear.) The next objection of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Tierney) was to the
Weis to be paid to the Commissioners for =nag.
the King's private property. He had no doubt
Tenons would be found in the Household who would
tuidertake the task without any salary. The Hon.
Gentleman (Mr.Whitbread) had said is would be in-
delicate to legislate on the King's private property ;
be agreed in tha.: opinion ; but h.. could not agree
t the proposition of the Hon. Gentleman, that to
prevent the necessity Parliament should make a leap,
.nd deprive his Majesty of it altogether. That was a
mode of legislating, of which he (the Chancellor of
die Exchequer) should be more jealous than any
other mode whatever—(Hear, hear.) This was nut
intended as the ulterior proceeding as to the an ange.
/mato( the Household, in case or the Prince Regent
coming to the Throne ; nor were these proceedings
adopted with an idea that the recovery of is - Majesty
land his consequent resumption of the loyal Autho-
rity, was Lopelers. The Right Hon. Gentleman had II
asked if there were to be two separate privy purses,
one for the Kink, and another for the Regent. It did
appear reasonable, after this arrangement should be
effected, to apply to Parliament for some arrange-
ment on behalf of the Princesses, who, in the present
irate of things, must be deprived of that occasional
assistance which they could formerly have received
from their Royal Father. He. denied that he could
fed in his own mind any distrust of, r disrespect
to, his Royal Highness, as the Right Flom-n-able
Gentleman had 'said, Ministers had slice - through
the whole course of these arrangements ; but the
sight Honourable Gentleman, by searching his
mind, might find some such feeling there.—.l
regard to the custody of his Majesty's person, ,
lalmost certain that his Royal Highness would,
a sense of delicacy, decline such a task, it it
proposed to him. He ti weed that tl •• • -
the a. ‘. • -
be had\ proposed would be considered by the
and by the Country to be letter than that
the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Tier-
vished to see adopted. He hoped that the
would see no reasan for refusing to go into
uniniittee.
ARBUTHNOT declared himself fully pre.
Ito go into the investigation of his accounts in
a"hest manner ; hut tilt that seas done), he hoped
Gentleman would harbour any ungenerous suspi-
him.
PONSONBY said that his Right Honourable
bad only declare.' that there was no evidence
the House to shew that the accounts were cor-
m. incorrect; and all that lie asked for was the
an of such evidence. His objections to the
were, that this arrangement did not give the Re-
the.entire management of the Civil List; and he
rift that the Regent should have just as much as ;
ig had to support the Royal dignity. He ob-
. to the great increase which this arrangement
.4111 give to the Queen's influence, as she had al-
If £5B 000 , out of the Civil List, and a large esta-
Inlent of Officers of her own. He would vote
Motion of'his Right Ilonourabli. Friend (Mr.

and Mr. ronstsnbt) who objected to this Clans*
w•thout some communication from the Prince Re-
gent, signifying his assent thereto, when, after a few
words from the Chancellor of the Exchequer, it was
agreed that the Chairman should report progress and
ask leave to sit again, in order to give the Chancellor
of the Exchequer an opportunity of making such
communication officially to the House.
The House being resumed,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER
Csignified his Royal Highness's approbation of the
ause, as Regent, which he was authorised to com-
municate to the House, having taken his Royal High-
nesc's pleasure thereon.
Mr. ADAM made a similar communication on the
part of his Royal Highness in his character as Prince
of Wales.
The SPEAKER explained the usage, and instan-
ced a case ie 1766, when his Majesty wanted to trans-
fer some property in the 4, per cent 3. and %%hen the
course now pursued was adopted.
Mr. TIERNEY contended that the nrnperty about
to be transferred did not belong to his Royal High-
ness as Prince Regent, but as Prince of Wales; the
Message delivered did not come under the proper de- i
nomination. The Right Honourable Gentleman
must have a Message delivered to the House from
the Prince Regent as Prince of Wales, unless he
wished the Prince Regent to give away the Prince of
Wales's money—( el laugh).
The SPEAKER then declared, that in point of
form the matter was now complete, and the Com-
mittee was again resumed—and the 14th Clause being
again read from the Chair,
Mr. BRAND renewed his objections to the Clause,
until he should hear it explained how this sum was to
be appropriated.
Mr. ADAM feeling himself particularly called
on to redeem the pledge he had made to the House,
to explain in what manner this sum was to be ap-
propriated stated, that since the passing• of the Act
in 179;5, the Prince Regent was not in a situation
to owe any thing upon his own account. By that
Bill, a certain course was marked out, and it was
provided that when a tradesman had not received
his Bill within the quarter after it became due, he
was to give ten days notice to the proper officer,
and if he failed in giving such notice the amount
became forfeited, and the officer became personally
responsible for the sum so retained in his hands ;
but in the ex cation of this . Bill such a clause was
found next to impracticable, and on many occasions
his Royal Highness could not discharge the obliga-
tion for articles necessarily furnished for his use,
unless there existed an honourable understanding
between him and his tradesmen. In 1808, which
was three years short of the expiration of that Act,
and according to which his Royal Highness's reve-
nue was given to him by anticipation, it was stated
at that time that there were certain obligations of
honour, different from those just alluded to, one of
which was due to the Elector of Hesse, which was
iii part discharged and part left behind unpaid; be-
sides 10 per cent. taken from some tradesmen, while
10 per rnt. was added to others, which latter in
point of justice should have been taken off ; and these ,
lorrned a part of the present charge. There were other
engagements, which, from the limited state of his
Royal Highness's income at that time, he was Inca-
pable
of discharging. When the Property Tax was
established, by the letter of the law, he was required
to pay to the amount of twelVe thousand pounds per
annum, which created considerable embarrassment.
In 1808-9, there were demands of a peculiar rewire,
which he was anent's should not form any demand
upon the public. He meant no reflections upon any
iadividual, whether these charges arose from any ex-
traeagance or misapplication ; but theyamounted al.
together to a sum of £175,000. There was, besides,
four thousands pounds for rent, with taxes, and im
provements at Carlton-House, which was a Royal
Palace belonging to the public, and the only one
which was not exempt from these charges ; £17,000
to the Princess of %Vales, with other demands which
the Hon. Gentleman enumerated, and from which,
he hoped the House would be satisfied the peseta
grant would not be more than sufficient. As to the
claims of the Duchy of Cornwall, it had been decided
by the highest authorities that the right existed.—
I
Having made this statement, he concluded by inti-I
that this was probably the last time he should
have the honour to address that Houle, having, he
hoped, discharged his duty with fidelity to the Prince
and hoeesty toss ards the public, he hoped he might
be allowed to retire, to pursue his prokssional avo-
cations.
Mr. BRAND conceived that his Royal Highness
the Prince Regent should be placed at the head of i
the Government free from all incumbrances.
Mr. TIERNEY had but one opinion with respect
to the embarrassments of his Royal Highness, and
that was, that he should be released from them when
called upon to assume the high office he now exer-
cised. It the £70,000 were vested in Commissioners,
as was done in 1;95, with the £64,000 added to the
£13,000, arising from the Duchy of
;abutCornwll, then
the objeceons started would ba done away
1 cording to the proposed arrangewent, his Royal
Highness would stand in the purview of the Public,
as drawing annually from the national revenue a 1
sum of £370,000, a situation in which it was by no 1
means desirous he should be placed. The Honour- I
I able Member concluded by eepressing a wish, that
some person of understanding and experience would
bring forward a plan for the purpose of freeing his
Royal Highness from the incumbrances under which I
• lie now laboured ; a wish in which, he had no doubt,
every friend to his country would cordially unite. I
The clause was then agreed to, and on that with
Mr.tcDAM would vote for goin into the Corn-
respect to the Civil List being read, was opposed by
and would then be willing to investigate one Mr. BROUGHAM, and a discussion of some length took 4
minutely, which takes k 50,000 from his Royal place between him and Mr. Glees on the one part,
A's Exchequer income, and adds it to the Ci- and the CHANCELLOR of the EXCIIEQUER on the other,
lit. This Bill he considered' as the fittest he had Mr. Buon -o HAM in particular, contending that it Wes
_e to go to a Committee. not sufficient that the excess should be reported to
to
explained. I Parliament when above the sum designated in the
The
House then divided.—For the Committee,
' clause, but that any excess should be so reported.—
; against it,
The Committee then divided on the Clause—Ayes'
•
The House ; 59.
hen went into the Committee. 1103—Noes 33—Majority 72.
The several clauses of
the Bill, from When we- were re-admitted to the Gallery, we
were
to which there no objections, the Ist to the W
were thee die
found that the other Clause had been agreed to, and
to, and the blanks filled up.
on the House being resumed, the Report of
the 14th Clause, providin the transfer o
• • of Committee was ordered to be received tomorrow
_ from the Prince Regent's Exchequer Reve-to the Civil List, some discussion- The other
took place be- • this day).
Orders of the Day were then disposed
Mr. Tierney , Mr. Whitbread, Mr. Freeman-
of, and the House adjourned at one o'clock.

Tilt EVENING STAtt.

LONDON.

TUESDAY, JANUARY 28.

- - - - - - - ---
PRICE Ok STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK
S per Cent. Red. 63I—Navy 5 per Cent 94
per Ct. Cons. for money utii.!;—Dit to for account 62j
4 per Cent. 791 —Bonds 17s. 18s. pre.—Omniunt
Bich. Bille (31) :is. to Us. pre.—Ditto (3.0.) to pro.

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