Star.
London, England, 1825-04-22 00:00:00

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Sot An was it tbatlitalight sly to the Mott,
who was it that sttinpea Episcopacy of its mitre2l7llll
lilt bat With they Wire 1?to they aiiii-eitift
rali not enema-bred *of the`-1 nines of the Cathele
church, nor do I advocate the indefeasible successiOnl
"of the Popes .to the Chair of &sine Peter; bur the what!
ntalidon for,Parlistinknt is; whether this doctrine was
Itabit tend' acted on, or rathei, whether it ii now
Meld and acted on in a way 'to threaten danger to the
VOnstlttftion? I have saluded before to the evidence
taken M the Committee. It is unnecessary for me' brit
say anything in praise of the talents of Doctor Doyle,
who: Was exansifted as to this-particular facts With-
`out giving him more credit than any other man,
4 am bound to conclude, upop every calculation or
'probability, that he spoke nothing before the Cow
listittee but what he conscientiously believed to be MI;
Von will and, then, that Di. Doyle deities that- the
*ritual obedience to the Pope can operate against
'tleir allegiance trethe Sovereign. His own words-ate,
'after a distinct disavowal of the contrary infereifee,
11 There was an objection taken,• that the prothise' of
obedience, though canonically made to the Pope,
teetered with our allegiance to a lawful Soiereign ;
and; therefore, there was a clause inserted its the
oath, which removed that objection. fell; it the'
course of my reading the other day, on eifeititiordi-
vary instance in confirmation of the same opinion.—
Pope, the dist;ngaished poet, was, as ran all•
linoW, a Roman Catholic; and Bishop Atterbttry at
one time endeatoured to convert him to the Church'
of England. Mr. Pope stated, in his reply to the
Bishop's' letter, 4 I hope all Churches and allGoVersl•
meats areso far of Goa, as they are rightly underithod,
and sightly administered; and where they are or may'
be orong, I leave it to Goo alone to mend or re-
form them, which, whenever he does, it must be by
greater instruments than I am: lam not a Papist, for
I renounce the temporal invasions of the Papal Power,
and detest their arrogated authotity over Princes and
Statelf; I am a Catholii in the:snictest sense of the word.
Here is a confirmation of what Dr. Doyle said, when
he denied the interference of the spirituel authority of
the Pope with the temporal allegiance of the subject;.
and I cannot help considering this accidental testimony
of a hundred years ago, written in t e strictness of
,private correspondence, affecting no controversy, and
seeking no publicity, as one of the strongest corrob na-
tions that could be brought in aid of any testimony.. A
-is true that this datinction between Spiritual and Tins.
poral allegiance has been called an absurdity ire the
course of those debates, but it is an atintrditi of vihieti:
Pope ci uld be guilty, and with which- Afierblify veal'
satisfied—tHeardsiar). The CCatyiblics hive, unfor-
tunately; i must admit? glee& dfeitiselies up to the
guidance of their Pi imits and leideri=tadtilit the Fact',
but I lay the blame upon another quarter. If they are
idolaters in politics, it is We have; made them ser--:
(Hear, hear). But ho-sa can we preVent such idolatry ?
How can we rescue them front Meerferfseehive. caused-
them to fall into? By admitting thiai to the full and
Ire worship which we all ceja.y.,--Ily opening to Mein
the sanctuary of the law—by hiring up the veil- of the
-British Constitution, and pointing Our for their partici-
pation mid reverence, the spirit of freederti that &tells
within. D,p' this, and you viiH Wean' their ter eiree
trent the ciinie of idolatry and superstition—(Hear}:—.
Opinion has now arrived it that csisis, with respect to
this great national question, that-if yotr do not
aptici-
pate change, change will nisei:Mister you—(•Hcar,
hear; I). Is it not a grievance that millions of people
should suffer disabilities merely on account of religion?'
is it not a grievance that the choice of the Crown should
be restricted in the selection of its advisers`, and in the
estensicil of its fay.,urs? Is it not a grievance that any
people should wear a badge marking iheM' out from the
rest of their rellaw-aubjects as Otiectsscf suspicion' and
distrust, daMping their hopes of industry and honour,
and meeting them. at every turn with exclusions from
which other sects have been long relieved? No man
will deny that there is grievance in alt this, if it *ale
possibl- to have tatiided it *Omit (fates', The Hen:
Member for Ddry hai said that we are iti
which leaves us only a choice of difficulties, and that
whatevei conclusion we come to he 'cannot be hilly
satisfied. This is, unfortunately, 'our situation; but.
the misfortune would be still greater, if we had'
made theirs ourselves. The fact, however, is other.'
wise. We have not made out our ditEculties.
We have ir.herited them, but it is our good fortune' to
have the means of curing} their. At the sarnetinie, it
it not for us eo charge our ancestorsi who. passed rhose
-enactments,. with having passed them without excuse
or apology. There was a disputedsuccession ; there
was an association between. the Catholic Biligitifat and
certain political results, ithich they had all interest in
resisting. It was in vain to think of putting docin'tte
disturbances of the time without putting dOWti the
religion which formed a part M the cause of these
ditturbances. They should; elector; be forgiven,if, in a Moment of *1654; they retorted upon ttteit'
adversaries, what their adversaries in victory bad
visited upon them. But there' inOther china
which out ancestors have on our justice. They
saw that reconcilement was impracticable; that
the enmity between them and the Jacobites' trust,. be
permaneat and lasting. They determined that? ar they,
could rmr ccitiVeit they would peniat, and the
they took were dell calcblated to Carry %Weir, designs_
into effect. The rack-is_ horrible, bat it is a beautiful'
piece of mechanism. The Penal Laws are revolting,,
het they-are ad mira'ble contritancei for the pligislinienr
and degfadatiOn of *inn-. were siclspietl to
the purpose for which they were devised. They Were
fitted to set the wife against the husband—the children
against the pitentthiOservantagaiiit ht= vit'aitif-to,
destroy the confidence, the hippiness, and Ate villa-Of
society--to stew feat in every Manse, Mid beivieen all
sekationa, ittid to reduce the population td a state
Of iniiry (When chef had perhaps some scruples of
iciniclence ai to the propriety. of exterminating
them}-a state of misery and degradation that placed
&Cie almost on a level with the brute—( Hear; hear).—
714 Pinal Law; were consequently an admirable in-
vention, when we consider the purpose they were
tended to serve. But just as all was nearly done, and
when the last turn was about to be given to the ma-
thine, the English Legislature grew ashamed ofies own
work, and shrunk back from the prospect which it had
taken so much pains In prepaiing. 1 say Chit with cont-'
fidence, for it would be telly to deny, that the policy of
this country was changed from that moment. If not,
the laws of 1778 were mistaken ; but in fact there was
no mistake. You repented, and you relaxed; your
policy changed net now but then, and the task you are
invited to perform is to persist in the same policy which
You then adopted, and which not only the friends but
the adversaries of the Bill approved and rejoiced is. It
ite it a consolation to reflect, thatthough we-dad not cause,

,

We can "Meat the iftiilftit* MI. if ferocity of theirenal.
,ICode. I have often been-stenck, on looking at those'
`were
ve
ssefitconcelSrd,ith' tee' blear ingendity in which thb7
1
fdFit-Wobld setiit'Aq theLegielatM4l
bad &acted the arliOleToree Of ier mind to select' dial
;tenderest point's whera;woundi could be inflicted, aid
!disgust combined with suffering. Bttt I contemplate
ithenr now, Sir, with' a degree •of pleature, because it
proves the buoyancy of human nature, and that human
ley hid not the power todiprets it.
iingenu
1. " In oar anti& We abeikid
Up to or native seat : demesne atalltall
To is Is adversew-ACheerigh
!What are we now to do?—No man will advise tiatwe
all. go back ; to go forward ir now the questitO,• and
Ee
at tkiitioti may belinswered• in the negatiVe. iii ti I
ar that we can stand where we ale—( Heir, 4at):
6 man will advise that- we-shall go back. On the
I.c.orttrarr we- see.bo* far the-opposite opinion-is work-
ing.. W ithbuf rifEitinlt to' Of stieticheS in debate, but
niVitelY taking-thetii as indleatibni of the growing spirit
of the times, it is imposiible- for any man to have list
ened to the speech of an -Honourable Friend-of mine
Itnr. BitiVnslonlywhastittid theitnpressionvof an hottest'
land conscientious mind, admitting the prejudice; and)
.. . ..
'apprehensions in which it was educated, and renouncing
Ilihem in cOnformity with the growing liberality of the
are. His own individu II presence spOke4af it were with
-
a double tongue. It is impossible to have beard ano-
lther Honourable Member (Colonel Ford) without ads
:mit ing the candour and difficulty of hismdmissions, and
drawing from them another living illustration of the
great change in public-sentiment. It is impossible to
'have heard another Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
the County of Down, without Coneluding, 0,15 t that hh
i
was a convert, but that conversion was abeoadeand that
;he WAS a.brilliant instance of the effects it was produtingt.
'if these are indications of the state of opinion,. are they
not also proofs that what is now proposed to be done in.
;favour of the Catholics will be met with a different
;temper from that which h4s forenerly' attended the same
proposal ?—(Hear,- bar) Our business- is to legislate;
and to legislate with a view to' the improved spitit of
the age, and the improved condition of the Catholic
'himself. 'lt will turn those adrantages to evil which
,we boast of haying, discovered- and encouraged. You
talk of increasing weahh—the growing population—
the adOancing intelligence—the acceierattng industry
arising from the connexion between ElKland and.
Ireland ; but is it not the fact, that the acquire-
meot- of those advantages by the Catholics-, Must
excite-feelings in their minds which cannot be satisfied
Without further mid more ample concessions? Do
.lotr not feel that you have given them too much it
you have not given: it Ear a noble puipose? that you
hitvelifted them painfully high, if you have only placed
,theur On an eminence,' from whente- they can command
a nearer view of the blessings from which you would
Cruelly exclude them- Perhaps it would be better for
individual- happiness that the C I Viol ii shmlld have been
left in the humble condition to which you had reduce&
him, than ambulated . by every . gerr4.ons principle of
action, and then denied the capacity to employ them; in
the ir proper use•;-(lienr,kear); My Right Honourable
Fs iend. (Mi. Gut* stn) was. panic-struck at the prospect
01 taking one step in advance. He foresaw the over-
throw of the Constitution, from the. admission of a few
Catholic Gentlemen into Parliament ; but there isr is'
appears to me, a long chain between his remises and
his conclusions, the links of which, I must confess,
I hsve not the penetration to See—(Hear) What foice
could it be that gave rise to the apprehensions of My_
Right Honourable Friend? Was it physical force?
—(A hulgl4. if sa, I would give him one conso-
lation in t.ii adversity, by telling him that physical
force is more likely to be directed against a door than it
shut, than against a door that is open—(Load latrehter).
But what you proposed to give is not political power,
but the capacity to possess rt. The Protestant Crown,
and the Protestant population of this country will have
prejudices—hon-urable prejudicee enough to event
against any poi, ible inischief with as mneir precaution
;as aWY nftE cab deiiii.. My Right Honourable' Medi/
this said that they will never be satisfied—that they will
go on insisting upon' mote and more, until his. propheiy
re9eetin'g the overthrow of the Constitution it ;mira-
culously tulfilied. But can you suppose thin the Catho-
lic Gentlemen or the Citholic labourers, or the whole
i Masi' combined; in all their g'indations, can ever hlipe
or think ta seize the powers of die State? is this a
probable—is it 4 possible event to contemplate? Sup-
pose five or six Catholic Gentlemen were admitted into
Parliament. 1 date sae, that in' the fist stissioti [heti
would be some strange looks. Those Gentlemen would
hive some inquisitive glances to encounter. But, in the
course of a Session or two, we should mouse to sit be-
side them w;th as much ease as we now sit by the
Dissenters, of whom. see think mote favourably only
,because they are Protestants; as if, to vie an Mt.'
preasion of Mrs Burkel; h€ Was the best Protestant,
who protested *edit thf greatest nullifier of dOcirinet.
~.:-Of one Oing I do sore, that no Catholie gentleman
will* sit 6f the Prate:tint camintiniet irliat I heaid a
frotestait Gentleman say the other night against his
'Cathillit fellovi-subjects—(Hearn beer j.-=lt is hat
-Whither the boon OS be bestowed Shill noel' be given,
~arid tuff hive the grace to give it, but Whether we will
take on ourselves the responsibility of withholding it,
unless Our opponents cap say and believe that the pre
sent state of Irelind• will ccnstinue—that ha beginning
;prosperity wilts go on increasing; itnd ms•evill be the
COnseqtteate elf-now- withholding this boon, that no
linjuiy wRI leave to the Conititutrenz-tothat Confetti:
*l3. Which it held up to the' Irish ii gornething roe
!Which to shed °Me blood, hit ice that Cc:imitation,
the beauties of Whith are net the !lefties it give*,
and the equality it -throws over all the subjetts,
but * Constitution' of exehttion for the Catholic,
and .which you all on him to love and Support,
fieeatist it is the means Of eXclading hit* from the
Saint Priefieges As the rest of his fellOW-subjeci4—
In OrOportitin ai the prosperity of the Country is greed
in prOportions as it is rich and powerful ; in 'propot!
don as it is free lien external evils, add rapidly
increasing in internal wealth; when it is enfolding
immense capabilities whioll its warmest admirers had
never anticipated; in proportion,' Sr, is there is no
room- for fear from abroad,
1 • no dread of danger at
home, just in that elite proportion are we in a condi-
tion to give the b6on asked by the Catholics, ivithout,
our conduct being liable to the mikonitruction of it!
having been forted from is by terror, Or extorted by
intimiclatiOri—(tear, hear I). I hope, Sir; that I
should feel ashamed, that I should Seel the diSgrate
yielding to menace; and I think, Sir, I have prO+ill
to my Right Honourable Trend, during this pref.
sent Sesai.-0, that I am piepired to vindicate We
hoadOr of this 'House, and uphold tb't so dew's
oft e law against any iniptititions; beige, by a fortaaVte

i~

circomsbuscas.:-by a' series of Mott-we
could•not• command, much has been don. which will
make those stand silent who had beforeopposed tbe men.
sure, or refused to go intn'aa aocountof the state-of tbe
country. There was reason for opposing the measurewlsaa
the country was in the midst of ariEculties. radmit, Sir,
the feelings of those who would not go into the quips.
tion, when to grant it might imply an appreherninn,
and when it could not be refused without hazard. Bet

adtitte is now come, Sir, suitable beyond GOT hopes and
:expectations. Who can look on the high and balmy
,prwpeilty of our country, and not wish to make the
ffeetibg state, for everything is fleetingand not
wish-1 say, Sir, to make this fleeting state our
own, and mark it by- stinie signal act of beneficence.
Itrantthitting it tb our posterity as a testirtriny of
idltr Own' gtatittscle, for t'he high layout sliewn us
„(Heat).—lf so be that our external peace was disturbed
—if our internal' tran4uillityi be iinintetrupte&—if our
prosperity be checked—if the' stealth' witkwhich we
are now gorged should riot dndenY produetive outlets,
should we not have a proud• satikfiction in having con.
secreted this moment of proiperity toe gob& woe k, in
having made it our own, and marked it by an act- of
race in all coming annals of Stitish legislation? This,
Sir, is not the time for enterinkinto.oiscussion of the
particular parts of the Bill ; but I must rake the present'
opportunity of offering ohe or two remarks mi. it. As
to the Oath, I agree with :61y Right I-inn. Friend that
it is unsatisfactory—it is more like.* bill of indictment,
in which *ter pbssible crime is-enuriterarteck, that the
'prisoner Mali hirEikichance of escape.- than a pc) •
irtation. But my' Riet Hon. Friend forge that the-
ill has pail atilithek place. In else lase Dill Which
was sent` op frcitit! this HOUSf, the oath had been cur-
tailed',- and tilers- *Pantile& an objectibtr to the 11M-
jsute that this
.064 bitft cild oath was °Mini& li-degat
many surmises of e'en intentions. In dr:l.4lllg tip the
`prespreset% Bilk thin, the olctiong oath has been restored;
ent
Rijeka*. Friend says it is too longoeithout con.;
isideting that it iipspiksed on ut lip' the part, isith--
!which he acii. My gight Hon. Friend treats the
question at if the Catholic . created the qualificaCion,
land theft protean d• against it. The oath; Sir, is nei.
tCher his nor mine. Thi obmixiaffe oath was

. .
doted into the 13111 of 1793, alid Was Copied' front it.
;As to the security proposed,. my Right Honourable
IFrientr, Sfr; says this will not Ottilly the Protestant -
''and argaei as if 'We insulated the Correipnlidence
!tween Catholics and the Cuomo/ Rome; bat that: lip
Itercours6 dist: every day. The concerns of private
!life are regulated by it. &scripts mid citbEr-
nications come over every slat; diey are cilifttity to
slaw, but the laws are so severe they cannot be etiforCed.
The authors of the Bill do'not create these evils; but
'if you find them so alarming, we call on you to devise
.snme law for checking theme,; you must hrice I Bill for
regulating the intercourse with Rome ; for theiteslent
:laws- are SO severe they cannot lie executed. Sirs I
,have occasion to know. this.. Shortly after my accession,
to office, I received a letter from the Pope, which t did'
not like to open till I bad Consulted the Law Oltreert;
I did so, Sir, and I found if Y took any notice Ofrtlitleftery
I should fall under-the Stelae of Pretimniref I did pot
answer the letter; audit retnwins unaninveted radii; day.
•The area-rioted restriEtioni hive also been fottnd fault
with, ds lel Confide too ninth., and *6 Of t+66
petting a nature-,--( kear, laut,011). Now, &r,-
'few words as to the other measures which ate.to be coo-.
.necteclithh this Bilk It bx any Mange in the elective
qualification, we cab sive strength to thole wbp hitife
on all oceasioni proved then selves our *Ai-niei( friendly
I shall be ready to support the measure; thane, on
the general pirincipTes of -freedom, and of freehold
qualification, should oppokie it. FrAtaild id Bat
And freehold Ireland are such different Whitt ; has
been made so clear in delliteii- that they are not regu-
lated by the sense that in striking at cite
symbol of freedom, if *redo not. violate:the esience of
freedom of election; if, in striking at that symbol, we at
the same time do good to Ireland, I, for one, Sir,
shall not by Ail aitaclig in the Way of raising the
gnalificatidli fob Votteg. Attu thWiterind shalom the
prilitipit irguttient whit* I travt urged against it te;
that it is casting the whole colamunity td support ar par-
ticular religion. But that is the case now when the
&giant Doom is collected. This, Sir, is paid_both by
the PiOtestinti And Catholic's. Do not the cittailief
alsti pay &het to the Protestant Chateli? I ant riot
ready W tibia thin iyiteol.=-} Will not do' aril, this
grievantez4 will not inntriate on the pro'perty of the
Church. I.am !Mt prepared, considering,
.as I do, the
Protestant Establishment in Ireland as the best security
for the anion of the eat not ready to
fintiinidi theie tithes. But stippodnithit chef/rote***
ii Called on to pity foi the ittpptitta the Cathulk Pries*►
hood, it will only resemble the tai now levied.otil the
Catholics to support a branch of the Protestant Church:
Though I shall be ready 01) these ',rounds tp support
the auxiliary treasures, I will riot sall that i should not
support the present Bill ivitliout that: I Wilt ties:lWe
the Hoisa with aria other Otieeivathin t hi** lima:sight
under the notice of the House the internal_siteition of
the Catholic, and the internal .situation of Ireland. *lo
our great and woadeilal increase cif prosperity we have
Outgrown. other nitiOni, Ind it is in litiniati nature,
btith In hiclitidosill and in ziadrAil,
_ter lea oW treat
proiperityr with doinithheflike ifividiandoese: There air
in some cases I feeling of &is nature among tither na-
tions, They look to our internal state for some spot,
which is to taint and_ destroy .our Constitution, and
where can they find it? .where do they always direct
heir attention, but to Ireland, and to the state of the
Catholicsthere they loiili for the deitruiticin of obi
power. I, Sir, would disappoint both our in'tici;ticit
friends, and these who are really anxious for our wel-
fare, from conceiving that our prosperity is the best set
corky for tale happiness of Europe. I; Sir, would hell
this rankling wound of Ireland, so that not even a
eicattice should remain. If the. Bill shOuld pass, it
will produce this result; and Is Sir, shill give II
support twat measure.-(The Riglbc Hqn. Geodeman took his
seat amidst loud and long coatinned cheering.)
Mr. Secretary PEEL said, the subject had been so
exhausted that he should have been giati&d by la
maiaing silent. His flight Honourable Friend, he whi
sure, would admit, that if he saw great difficulty in this
question, and danger on the faCe of the Bill, he ought
to express his ientinsenti. He was sure his Right Him:
friend would not hiSeiteeM and frieuchhip When
;fie pursued that icitirst —( Hear). Be'ore he proceeded
Ito enter upon the topics introduced in the debate, he
(should say, he had heard with a perfect conviction Of
his sincerity, the avowal
.of his Hon. Friend, that he had
changed his opinion. tie should have made a similar
statement that he had Changed his, but he held tiet
changrci his cipinion, if *ls Still the 'erne. He haJ
never considered there Wits in ininpetieble bar to the