Star.
London, England, 1805-05-11 00:00:00

wick, he could afrure their Lorelfliips he iiiiinld hue
i
been one of the foremoft to refill it. He certainly
I agreed with the Noble Secretary, that this, was a
qiiedion which ought to be di/cuffed with calmeefs,
candour, and moderation, but was lorry to obfeeve
the Noble Secretary himfelf the very fiat to depart
from that temper and moderation which had fo uni-
formly charaderized the whole fpeech of his Noble
Friend. With refped to the perfons who figned that
petition, he thought the Noble Lord had gone much
farther than the.known refpedability of their charac-
tersicould warrant, or than the Noble Secretary him
fell -could on reflektion approve ; and as to the after-
tions of the Noble Secretary, that the Catholics of
Ireland acknowledged any allegiance to a Foreign
Power, he was at a lots to know where he found I
the argument, for it was quite new to him. They ;
acknowledged, indeed, the Supremacy of the Pope
as a Spiritual Director ; but, by the molt folemn
oaths that could bind the veracity of man, they
had repeatedly difavowed all tempoial or peliti•
tical allegiance to any Foreign Power whatever; and
pledged themfelves, by every tell required of them,
to the firmed allegiance to his Majelly, and the eta.
! blifhed conftitution of there realms; and unlef's their
loaths were to he believed, thete could be no fecurity
for tire or property in any Rate where they cliff. If
it were true, that the objed•of the Catholics was die
attainment of political power for purports inimical
[to the State, why then not allow the motion of his
i Noble Friend for going into a Committee, not merely
for the purpofe of enquiring into the expediency of
granting new privileges to the Catholics, but to en-
quire bow far chore already granted-hod been wifely
given, or properly exercifed ; or how far.lt might he
right evert to repeal all the laws of conceffion and in-
' dulgence pared in their favour during his Majetly's
reign. With refped to any danger of fubverting the
Protedant Religion, to let up their own in its place,
the Noble Secretary himfelfacknowledged and proved,
that the confpirators in the late unfortunate rebellion,
Catholics as well as Proteflant, totally denied any
fuch ohjed. There was, however, obvious caufe, ,
from recent experience, to apprehend, that fo long
as the fyltem of reltraints and difqualifications was ,
kept up asainft fo great a majority of the people of
Ireland, jealoulies and difgutts mull rankle in their ,
bofoms, and conitantly expofe the lower orders efpe-
&ally to liften to the machinations of any defigning
confpirators, who would convert their grievances into
a Ilinsulus of infurredion. To have granted already ,
to the lower orders of the Catholics the dative fran- i
chile, and every immunity appropriate to their rank,
and to refute to the higher and wealthier orders the
privileges of their rank, was to cad a (lignite 'rpm
them wholly unwarranted by their conduit. The 1
Noble Secretary had Paid the time was improper un
der eliding circumstances. But fnrely if, in the pre-
terit date of Europe, any additional danger threatens
theft count, ies, the prefent is the moll proper of all
times to grant what is now requested, as it will not
only come more gracioufly than at any future period,
when the Catholics may become more wealthy and
more powerful, and when the grant would look more
like the refult of fear than of liberality, but have the ,
effeft of uniting all lefts of his Majelly's fuhjeds, with
heart and hand, againd the common enemy.
Lord SIDMOUTH profefred his inclination to fol. ,
low the example of the Noble Baron, and to difcufs ,
the important queltion which was before their Lord-
{hips, with that temper and moderation that was
'neeettary in confidering it. Whatever fentiments lie ,
entertained retpefting it, he would avow them plainly
and frankly, and he would begin by laying, that
kliough he would go as far in whatever regarded to-
ration as any of their Lordihips, he was net pre-
pared to go to the extreme extent pie:poled by the
Noble Baron. He liftened to what fell from the
Noble Baron with all the attention and refpeet that
' was due to whatever came from him; he heard him
with that pleafure that he always did, but it was a
pleafure mingled with altonithment and furprile.—
When he recollefted how greatly that Noble Lord
diftinguithed himfelt in combating dodrints which
led to all the calamities under which a great portion
of the people was aaually fuffcring, and he feared
would long coffer, it was not without excedivc alto-
siilhment that he heard him on this night maintain
doctrines, the dire& tendency of which was the intro-
cluethm of allthcfe innovating principles againd which
he had to manfully and foccefsfutly struggled. Before
he entered upon the quellion, he would take the op.
port unity of declaring, that he bntirely concurred with
his Noble Friend, the Secretary of State, in giving
full credit to the Catholics for their loyalty and at-
tachment both to the Contlitutien and the beneficent
Sovereign at the head of it. Their conduft, he would
acknowledge, for a reties of years, had been highly
meritorious. He was not inclined to withhold from
them the rewards dire to that loyalty and attachment,
but thofe rewards he underftood had been granted to•
them as fully as they could poffibly require. Tolera-
tion they enjoyed in as ample a degree as it could be
accorded to them ; but toleration was not what they
now preired for ; it was fotnething of a more cornpre-
henfive range ; it was for undefined privileges inrdi- ,
onfly fuggelled under the phrafe of Catholic Eman-
cipation ; a very convenient term, he would tendril,
for thole who had other views to anfwer, but cer-
tainly one not calculated to promote the object of the
petitioners. The Noble Briton who commenced the
I debate had adopted, for him at lead, rather a novel
line of argument. He began by arraigning the policy
adopted by our ancedur s, and which, with little vari-
ation, had been followed until the lad twenty years.
What, he would ask any Noble Lord, was the plain
object of the petition? Was it not to get rid• of the oath
of fopremacy and the declaration ? Meaferes which
the wisdom of thofe who went bcfure us thought indif-
pentablo for the maintenance of the Conditutiost.—
*There was not one of thofe meatures which could not
•be juflified by reference to the hiftory of the country.
He would admit, however, that thofe laws were
-forced upon Ireland. In making that declaration, he
(poke from his confcience, and with the regret cf an.
honed Englithman ; it could not he denied that they.
were forced upon that country by a cruel and over
bearing neceflity. (His Loran', here.wentinto an
hillorical narrative of the different plots and infurrec.
lions which led to the reftridions upon the Catholics
of Ireland.) He contended, that our ancellors were
juftified by thole various efts of treafon and rebellion
to impofe the fevere laws they had done upon Inch,
of the pOpulation of that country. as profeffed the
Roman Catholic perfuation. Some of the molt revere
of theft Statutes were palled 4 in. the (cis* of Williami)

r than wham no Prince or man ever entertained a
truer notion, or more fincere attachment to genuine
and rational liberty. (The Noble Vifcount went
through the hiftory of the political rellraints upon
the Catholics down to the commencement of them-
fent reign). Under the Contlitation, as it Rood at
prefent, he would ark what were the inconveniencids
felt by the Catholics ? Where they not as fully
protected in their properties, their charadets, their
liberty, as any other defcription of his Majelty's
fuhjeds? He called upon any friend of Oat Ca-
tholics to point out a fingle sStatute in our Legisla-
tive code which bore hard upon the Catholics. He
was perfutaded, if any fuels did,exift, that it was only
nece&ry to point it out, to induce its repeal. He
acknowledged that many of the argnmenq which had
been formerly urged apitat extending any indul-
gence to the Catholics, were no longer applicable.--
He was free to confels, that the exillence of a Pre-
tender to the Throne could no Longer be -urged as an
argument againll their claims; and if he thought
that the effcil of, conceding the Cuba ance of thr Peti-
tion would be to unite the mars of the popalation of
Ireland, perhaps he might have not been difpofed to
oppofe it fo decidedly as he found himfelf under the
necelity of doing; but when he law the Catholics
Alitlott undifguifedly endeavouring not to make them-
!elves apart of the date, but.the (late arch*, that was
an object which he could never be induced to grant
them. It was not merely a civil right, but political
power in the moll comprehenfive fignification of the
term which they fought to attain. One confequence
of acceding to what they demanded in their Petition
would be, that their clergy would acquire an autho-
rity which they, with the peculiar tenets of their le-
' legion, and the facilities it afforded, it was much to
be feared, would convert to a dangerous ufe. He
, called upon the Houfe to think of two fuch dange
rous powers as thole of excommunication and auri.
cular confAlion, and then to fay whether they would
not open a door to all the dangers that might accrue
to ihe national church from the empbytre It of fuch
engtnts ? The Catholic Clergy, there was too much
reafon to apprehend, had never relinquifhed the hope
of becoming the hierarchy of the country. He had
the authority of Lord Clare fur declaring that there
extfied confidorial courts in every diocefe in Ireland,
and that there had been a perlon refiding at Rome
charged to watch over the intereas of the It ith Ca-
tholic Church. Nay more, there was not a dignity in
the Eltablifhed Church which had not its counterpart
in the Catholic Church. The oftenfible ohje&, and
perhaps the teal objed of the petitioners was plain
enough; but was that objed the objedof the great body
of Catholics in Ireland? Would not that body be in-
clined to extend thrir views a little farther? Would they
not naturally look to the exaltation of their clergy, and
to divers other privileges, which could not be granted
to them without imminent danger to the prefent Con-
flitution in Church and State? If the Houle fhould
manifell a dirpofition to concede to them even the
limited object they demanded, it could not be done
without the certain facrifice of the Ad of Settle-
ment. What, he would Mk, would be the confe
quences at an eledion in Ireland, if the Catholics
()mold be allowed to become Members of the Legif-
lative Body ? In this country we had Peen the tumult
and inconveniences produced by the attachment of a
certain defcriptmn of the people to an individual.—
Whatever they were,they would be infinitely aggra-
vated in that country, where numbers would be found
contending with property.. He could not bring him-
fell to concede what was required by the petition. It
feeined to him a monftrous and (hocking propofition
to be called to place the Catholics in a different (late
from the re( of his Majetty's fubjeds, owing only a
limited allegiance. He called on the Houle to pre
ferve their Protellant King and their Protaant Par-
liament, and to recalled that it was a Proteftant Par-
liament which refcued the nation from the dangers
of a Popifh King. He exhorted their Lordfhips to
t,llnw the example of their Proteflant deliverer, and
to refolve to die in the lad dike of the Conflitution,
both in Church and State, tither than abandon one
principle of either. There were two roads before
their Lordthips : One of them was that old, vene-
rable, and well known way, which had been Bruck
out for them by their aneellors ; in purfuing that
they could encounter no-dangers. The other was a
way untrodden and dangerous, leading to innovations,
the confequences of which no human forefight could
reach. He was not prepared to ruth heedlefsly into
a path leading to fuch defperate refults, and would
confequently oppofe the motion tor referring the pe-
tition to a Committee.

Lord MULGRAVE did not agree with the Noble
Vifcount (Lord Sidmouth) that this queftion affeard
the fundamental laws, the Afts, that were his Ma-
jelly's title to the Crown ; and he was compelled to
difrent from his Noble Friend (Lord Hawkefbury)
when he attributed bad tfl'efts to the circumftance of
the relaxation of the laws in behalf of the Catho-
lics being gradually introduced. Thit gradual
mode of meliorating laws was natural to the Conti.
tution, and beneficial in its operation. He had no
objeCtion to loch a relaxation, when it could be ef-
,
fated with a general concurrence. But the prelim
attempt would not meet with general approbation,
either in that Houfe or out of doors ; and, therefore,
only he oppofed the motion. He could not forbear
blaming tilde by whom it was brought forward. His
confidence in their proferfions was Ihaken by their
feizing upon this moment, and certainly it would in-
duce him to obferve well their meafures and proceed.
ings. Religious animofities and very fatal evils may'
redid. He would refit here, and go no Rep fat ther
at preent. The Roman Catholics of Ireland were
in a better date than thole of England. When the
time thould be fafe and the difpofitions of men fit, he
&mild not objet to the reducing redraints that might
be no longer neaffary.
Lord HOLLAND—" My Lords, I confers I
thought. that the Noble Baron who opened the de-
bate, had fo completely forellalled all the objections,
that could potlibly be urged again!( his motion, as
to leaee.me nothing new to add. I find, however,
that there is fomething for me to anfwer, aos4 that
other arguments have (prong up inthe debate, which
he could not potfibly have forefeen. The arguments
of two Noble Lords and a Noble Vircount have fill-
ed me with furprize ; for if they could be made outs
they would be produCtive of .the remelt calamity to.
Ireland. With one of there Noble Lords, though'
this is the fird time I ever had the honour of fitting'
in this .Honfe with him (Lord Hawke(bury ),.I never
/ agreed, and Ife.w.lsmu.sot likettto.aree now, bat,