Star.
London, England, 1806-06-03 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The

Sir R. BUXTON prefented a Report from the Committee on
the Forfeited Eftatea in Scotland.—Ortlercd to be printed.
On the motion of Mr. CALCR AFT, a new writ was ordered
for the &aim of a Member foe the Borough of Honiton, in the
room of Cannella Bradihaw, Efq. who had accepted the afire of
Teller of the Etchequer in Inland.
Sir CHARLES PRICE prdented a Petition front theta:reheats
of London trading to the American Colonies, againft the Amer.
can Interconrfe Bill; and Sir WM. CURTIS prefented a funibr
Petition from the flip-owners and oip•boildert of Loudon.
Sir WILLIAM CURTIS alto ptefented a Petition front the
Cordwainera of London againit the Flaying Bill.
The Philanthropic Society incerporation 818 was read a (rood
time.

Mr. FOSTER brought up a Bill for reguladog the frith Poft
Road Ad, which was read a firft time, end ordered to be read a
Wood on Thurfday next.
A perfon from the India Honk prefented Extrafts from Letters
of the Governor General to the Court of Dtredtors, dated Ode.
her ao, and November ao, aO3, 'asthma to an order of the
Houfe of Friday left.
On the motion of Mr. FOSTER. the fecund reading of the Linen
Drawback Bill was poltponed tin Thorfday.
Mr. PAULL gave notice, that he mould, on Thurfday, move
foe additional evidence in fupport of the charges egainft Lord Wit.
Mr. VANSITTART moved for leave to bring in a Bill for abo.
Hating Fee► in the Office of Cuftoms of the Port of London, and
for the better regulation of the Perron, employed in that Office—
The Bill which he propofed to introduce, was nearly Smiler to
that w►ich had been brought forward Lift Sefton, but which had
been lo lin the Houle of Lords. The alterations which would be
introduced would remove every objection to the Bill.
Mr. VANSfTTART then obferved, that his Noble Friend (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer), In moving for certain Papers relit.
tive to Barracks in the Ifie of Wight, had happened to omit one,
which be mould now move for. This was a Copy of a Letter from
Mr. Davis, Affiltant Barrack Matter, at Newport, in the lile of
Wight, to the War-Office, In t7O.
After a few words from Mr. ROBSON, the Paper was ordered.
Lord TEMPLE brought up a Bill for the better encouragement
of the Manufacture of Thread Lee in Great Britain, which was
read a Erft time, and ordered to be road a fecund on Thurfday.
On the motion of Sir J. NEWPOR T, the Dublin Paving Corn.
miffioners' Bill Was read a frond time, and ordered to a Commit.
tee of the whole Haute on Thurfday next.
Lord TEMPLE petitioned tLe fecund reading of the American
Intercourfe sill to Thurfday next ; his reafon for fo doing was, that
the Papers connedted with this fuhjedt, which a Noble Lord (Cat.
tiereagh) had llgnified his intention of moving for, might be brottibt
under the tont:iteration of the Houle.

Lord CASTLEREAGH then pollponed his motion for the Pa-
pers till tomorrow.
Mr. ROSE wifbed, that a (till longer time, than that which the
Noble Lord propofed, might be given for the cool deration of the
Bill, as it Jetted fu materially the trad: and navigation of this
country.
Lord TEMPLE did not fee, after the delay which had already
taken place, utile requeft of the Right Hon. Gentleman, how the,
farther confideration of the Bill could be poitpnued any longer
than Tburfday. He believed that the papers meant to he floe.;
for would not alter his opinion on the fubjeCt,but would leave the
queftion ezadly as it Rood before.
Sir C:IARLES PRICE obferved. that be bad alto molt"d for
papers on the fubjedt, which were not yet before the Houte.
Mr. ROSE then moved, that an Addrefs be prefentvd to to.
beMalaliedftlberporrelytibnge,HtohuaLt btebewMouid
em orlbeaPkilecd t:ortheoPdriiv7"raCo"utnheall tfhroen7
hating
lgi,:an.svetirtyCoafopad In
17mi gcoaa, peanavid albfyo fortusemiNwew Btherl%un,:vt;ituck,,

asattilyie WELLESLEY.
Mr. PAULL gave notice, that an Monday next, be would
yrs-fent a third charge Irina the Marquis Wellefley.
Lord TEMPLE wilily,' to know front the Honourable Gentle-
man, when it was his intention to move tome (peel& day for the
Houfe taking into cooMeratioa the charges which be had already
brought forward. ft was the more neceffary that no time Mould be
loft, as a dired charge of murder bad been brought againft the
Noble Lord ; and &cold the Honourable flentleman decline Sting
any day, he hinifelf intended to move for fume fpecific day cr^
which the charges might be confidered. •
Mr. PAULL anfwered, that all the papers on which the charges
were roundel. were not yet before the Houfe.tlinugh it was linty
they would be relented to morrow. When the papers were pa-
iented, he Otooki propolk an early day for their confiderations
though in this matter hs was refulved to mask only his own ideas.
He alfo complained, that certain papers had been detained at the
Board of ControuL
°load WELLESLEY expreffed a Smiler impatience, that the
sa..6.lihrlin Nob* his Nal* Relation mould be as fpeedily espial*
aim Ware; and partorribill
ZlWlTilithiliteelyed."lllYriMeeniedma edeinrder He obfsr,,ed, that
*oath they're, alluded to were not regularly tranfmitted to the
Brant, yet they were to be &and la the detail of Bestial Tranti•
Selma for ello3.
Mr. VANSITTART brought up the Bill appointing Consinite
*wen for the more Examination of Accounts and Ex pen.
'Store In the Welt Indies, which was read a firft time, and ordered
to be read a Reontito-morrow.
Mr PARNELL brought up the Report of the Committee el
Ways and Means, and the R-foludons impair/ an additional Duty
le Male In Ireland, which were read and agreed to, and • Bill
wise/Meted to be brought in accordingly.
Os thawed= of Sir J. NEWPORT, the Mat Stamp Doty BM
was Ned a Mid time and puffed.
the modes of Mr. VANSITTART, the Houfe tetoked
Write a Committee of &apply, to which an Accost* of the
Aziwee of Exchequer BM faked In dos was referred. The fain
Miser Mißione and a half was then voted for paying off Etcherer
Nee at gay, gr nted on the credit of aids for left year, metals&
big amil tleptudded for. Report to be resolved to 11101 row.
PIMP VITT Tax.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then faid,tbat k
bad been found needDiry to omit Introducing any edemption to
perfoos of (mall fortune, and with large families, into the Pre.
perty 818 which had lately miffed, In order to prevent any ernMe.
raffmcnt in the operation of that Bill. But this 0111ifil3a did nut
proceed from any want of feeling for the &cation of (*eh perfons.
and he now gate notice of bit intention to move for a Bine:emit-
ting prrfons of that (Venetian, which would not be liable to obfer
don, either In point of principle or of execution.
PRIVATI DRIWIIIIIIII.
of the EXCHEQUER alfo gave nether.

with regard to the tax on Private Brewer.. that as it was never meant
to Introduce the Eftife Into private families, It WSJ his intention
to omit that part of the Bin which autborikd an Facile duty on
Private Brewers. But it would be needier!, that the Refolutions
on which the Bill was founded, fhould be altered in a Committee
of Ways sad Means on Friday; the B ii could not therefore be
febtuitted to the Henfe before the early part of next week.
Mr. PERCIVAL wined to know, bow the Noble Lord would
be able to gamin who were private brewers, and who were not?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that
C 711117 perfon making a return under the Affaa• Taxes. would be
required to flute, whether or not ►e brewed his own beer.
MUTINY BILL.

On the motion of Mr. WINDHAM, the Hoare
then refoived itfelf into a Committee on the Mutiny
Bill, and returned the confederation of the new
dances introduced into it. After fome converfation,

Lord CASTLEREAGH rote to Rate his objec.
dons to the clank appointing a limitation of fervice.
The more he reflected on the (Wake, the lironger
did his objections to the meafure appear. In his op.
pion, the Houfe was placed in a painful and ember-
ralang fitnation, in being called upon to decide on a
gmat queltion of military policy, on which they
fo little information, and while Minifters
drought proper to withhold from them that body of
valuable information which they had received front
military men. The prefent claufe appeared to him a
lesions infringement on the undoubted prerogative of
the crown, neither warranted by the times, nor be.
coming in thofe who propofed it. ft had not been
contended that the interference of Parliament was
neceffary in a meafure of this fort; it had been eon-
felled, that the Crown enj eyed the prerogative of
making fuch an alteration, if thought to be proper,
and yet without any one communication from the
Crown, without any indication of with or content on
the part of his Majefly, the meafure was now brought
forward for dirculEon and fandion in the Honk. The
iocreafe of pay granted to the navy in 1796, which
had been Rated as a fimilar cafe, was founded on an
order of Council, and the rum; neceli,ry ro make
good the grants were afterwards voted by Parlia-
ment. The Crown had the power of introducing
mitations both in refpet of time and (pace into the
army. and of making fuch modifications as it thought
proper in the fervice of the men who were railed.
But of this power, he contended, the prefent claufe
Mould go to deprive the Crown, and prevent it hence-
forth from railing men limited in Flint of time to the
duration of a war, and in point of (pace to this coun-
try, or to the colonies in which they might be railed.
It was faid, that the Bill would give Parliamentary
fecurity to the perfon ; but he could not fee
the propriety of making an obfervation which would
Item to draw fome comparifon between the relative
fecurity which could be granted by the Crown or the
Parliament. If a limitation of fervice in point of
time was thought neceffat y, fuch a regulation might
have been itiferted in the articles of war, ky his Ma-
jeßy's prerogative, without being introduced into the
Mutiny Bill. In the year 1749, a fimilar meafure
had been fubmitted to the Horde by Mr. Thomas
Pitt, though, he believed, with a very different defigne
At that time a jealoufy prevailed refpefting a Rand.
ing army, and the Mutiny Aft. Mr. Pitt, therefore,
propofed a Bill for limiting military fervice. with the
defign of weakening the power of the Crown over
the regular army, and approximating the handing
army more nearly to the Militia in its form. The
Bill was rejened by a great majority; but its author
had the merit of at lealt bringing it forward in a dit:
tine 'hoe, and never thou/ea nt racking his meafure
to the towiny Aet. The elanfoneteineartrtorydeouuteroedethianefaculmnaduoarli
d
m t
mental change into an A which molt neceffarily
c‘Pv.ot thus'dhalentg a t6,:tl''''oat'oltlid°tnhp'e M
la
as
place
euttlilne h
their
g
Mutiny Bill for the prefent
year. Ntither could the Crown affix its negative "
to the Bill, without mpoling the country to ad the

•

. -Ail-

I

I

I

dangers which would eafue from difbanding the
army. In this refpett it ton much relernhled the
former praCtice of tacking chutes to Money Bus,
a pratlice which had been reprobated by Mr. Hatfell,
is his " Precedents," as irrregular and uncontlitu-
tional. Having flitted his obje&ions to the elaufe as un-
coollitutional, he fbould next make time obfere minor.
on the leading features of the meafure which was now
introduced. The Right Hon. Secretary had admitted
the prefent nrength of the army, and had Rated his
objet to be, to give greater facility and inducemenia
to enlinment. This, on all fides. was allowed to be
an objet of great importance. But he fiwuld think
it walling the time of the Committee to reply to the
Obfervations that had been made by a Right Hon.
Secretary (Mr. Fox) relative to the difpofal of our
force in the late campaign. He was ready to take
upon himfelf all the refpcnfibility cf the late Minifiry
• regard to fuch difpofal ; but it was not for
want of a difpefable force that greater exertions
were not then made. Forty thoufand men were then
ready to have been fent to any (warier where their
feu vices might have beer. ernyloycd. had it been
thought expedient fo to do. But it bit on ail hands
acknowledged that an addition to our army was
wanted, the only queltion came to he, whether the
prefent plan would have that ern& ? Had he hindelf
propofed the plan, he believed, that in allufion to the
country of which he had the honour to be a natives
it would have been called a blunder, inalmucb as it
in etre& propofed to inereafe the army by walling it
away. The mode of increafing one military force
teemed wild and romantic in the extreme. It began
by repealing a meafure that had already been produc.
tire, and promifed to be more fo, and would end with
difbanding our veteran battalions, and reducing the
Militia ahnoll to nothing. It was always Undern(tnd
to be of importance that our military force fhould be of
Inch a nature as might be difbanded on the return of
peace, and eafily re.affembled in time of war. Of
this nature was the Militia, and alto the Additional
Force which his late Right Honourable Friend had
railed. But the prefent plan would bring our peace
and war enablifliment in a kind of equality, a mea.
lure which it was furprifing to fee fupported by a
Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Fox) who on the late
peace had advifed fo great a redutlion of our kind-
:rig force. Neither would it tend to improve the qua-
lity of nor army, as it would prevent the greater
j art of our force from enjoying the benefits of fo-
reign fervice. As far as the experiment of limited
fervice had been tried in the American war, it had
not been found to fucceed. and the army was never
at any time more deficient. In the lan war, recruit-
ing for life would be found to have been more fuecefs
ful than that fora period of years. In the cow re of
the leg war, we had recruited men from the militia,
for general fervice in Europe, for five years only, and
in the prefent war, we had recruited from the Militia
for general fervice without any limitation, and the
refuits were as follow :—ln the year 1799, when our
militia confined of eighty thoufand men. forty.fix
thoufand of them were allowed to enliß into the re-
gular army on the terms lie had mentioned, and
twenty.fix thoufand did aCtually enlift ; whereas,. in
3805, when our militia was fcycnty thoufand, out of
the fourteen thoufand who were permitted to enlift
for general fervice. without any limitation, eleven
thoufand aflually did enlif. So that it appeared a
greater proportion of them had enlitted in rBos, for
general fervice without any limitation, than there did
in 1799, although the tam was but for five years, and
the apace limited to Europe. In 1799, Lord Corn.
Irani* alto tried the following experiment with rtfoed
to the frith militia. He gave a bounty of ten guineas
to thofe men who would whit for the limited let vire,

and twelve to thole that would culla • generally,
without any limitation ; and it appeoed, that out of
nine thoufand that volunteered from the Irifb militia,
there were only three hundred who chore the limited
(voice, with ten guineas bounty, fo that it appeared
that the additional two guineas counterbalanced all
thole °Nations that the Right Hon. Secretary fup-.
poled they entertained spina unlimited fervice.—
The principal objeflion, however, which he Celts was
that this propofed plan entirely altered the relation in
which the King flood to the army. It would take
away that which fhould, to a foldier, be the first idea
of his military exigence, that all rewards and boun-
ties proceeded rather from the grace of his Prince,
than from any inherent rights in-himfelf. The Right
Hon. Gentleman, however, had propofeel 'his' pen.',
fi ins not as a reward for Cervices, but as a bounty to
induce men to enlill. For his part, he did tint think
that there confideratioas cf dillant advantage would
bare much weigh: with ignorant and ill informed men;
and he fhould rather enable the Crown to give rewards
for fervices, than hold out thole peril-lons as bounties
to induce men to enter into the army. It was; mpfl
ferious objetlion to the meafure, that the Crown could
hardly be ftippofed to have a right to difband foldiers
who had a fort of veiled right in the ultimate saran-
sages held nut to them. He fhould then examine the
average walle of the army. in confequence of the
adoption of foch a fyilem, as alto the great expence
it mull be attended with. He . onfidered the wane
generally at about one twelfth of the whole army
each year. He had happened to fee the retools of
the (even battalion. of Guard,. which contained fries
men ; there were 70, or one eleventh, in the e:glith
year of their lervice ; 399, or one twenty.fecomi. in
the fi: tenth ; and 78, which was not in proportion
ui one to an hundred, in the twenty-11ra year. He
thooght that he might pretty fairly climate the walk
of other regiments from the eLlimate lit haft slated of
the Guards. It would therefore appear that one
eleventh, or twenty-two thoufand :nor, would be en-
titled to Omit, difcharge annually, on arriving at the
completion of the &II period of liven yciirs. and in
addition to thi, there would be ten thoufand annually
entitled for completing 'heir fecond period of fervice,
or fourteen years. This arrest di:Mat:tom would be
very difficult to fopply. A3efides the ache, the ex•
pence would be enormous. His learned Friend (Mr.
Percival) had Stated the additionil expense of the N.
Bier too low when he reckvned the value of his- pee.
lion at only ten years purchale. Although that
rn;ght be the felling price of an annuity, yet all the
tables of calculation, and the infurance brokers would
agree. that the chances of life for a man forty years
old. is that he will live twenty years. The anoual
expences that this &flew would occafion he calm-
laird as follows : 380,0001. for the bounties to the I
recruits who were to replace thole that went out; I
164,0001. foe the additional pay to the men iu the 1

I facond patiod ; 793,0001. annually for the Nations ;
of thole who bed ferved their fourteen years ; and
j 684,0501. fur thofe who had leaved to envy-one years.
I This would make a total inmate of above two mll-
/ lions annually for the army ; and if the fame princi-
ple were extended to the navy, of another million.—
/ So that at a time that we wete hearing an income tax
of ten millions,tather than burthen our poflerity with
I the half million that would be the intereft of it, we
/ wete throwing upon them a burthen fix times as great
1 by imputing an aunual expence of two or three mil.
j lions upon them. He was alto much afraid that the
; veteran fiddlers would feel great difeontent at young
j recruits meeting terms In much more advantageous,
than thole; under which they were entitled.
Mr. GRATTAN commented upon the admiffion I
of the Noble Lord who had jun fat down, that tome
I plan (or recruiting the army was neeeffary, and yet
j that be had no plan to prorate, although he con-
demned, in terms fo unqualified, the plan brought
forward by the Right Honourable Secretary of State.
Something calculated to keep lip aqd recruit our mi-
litary force was on all hands allowed to he defitable,
and the only quaint' was as to that which was molt
advilableao promote the object which all profeffed a
with to promote. Several recommended a reliance on
theurdinary recruiting alone, which, it was now evi-
dent. could not be condtufted ititliout high bounties ;
but the opinion of the majority, with whom he eer.
tainly concurred, was, that limited fervice Mould be
teforted to. Much encouragement to ad upon this
opinintiwas to be derived from experience. Notwith.
(landing the afrertion of the Noble Lord, that all ex-
perience was againft the experiment of the Right Ho-
nourable Secretary, he aliened the contrary. For
in the American war, Seventy eight thouland men
bad been tailed upon terms of limited fervice, and
fuch a number Purely retied to thew, that Ogle terms
- seem not likely to be ineffeCtive. Theft terms had,
• indeed, always proved productive. They were fo in
' the IA French war. But how did they fucceed in
the operation of thofe *matures. in fupport of which
the Noble Lord himfelf was fo forward ? What were
the Army of Referve and the Additional Force Aar,
but meafures of limited fervice ? The manner io
which the Noble Lord had argued on thii ticcafion,
in oppofition to a principle which he had fo often
. fupported before, was certainly fomewhat liable to
the charge of inconfiflency. The Noble Lord had
gone into a long calculation, to Stew that immenfe
expence would refult from the adoption of the pro-
poled plan, which expence was to confill of boodles
to the vial, and yet. at the conclufion of the Noble
Lord's fpeech he *flirted that this expence would have
no elle& whatever upon the reuniting of that at my.
—An inmate Of pay was to be the confeluence of
' (even years fervice, a fill greater increate ne fourteen
year's and further advantages were to be the reward
of remaining twenty-one years in the Service. Still,
according to the Noble'Lord, this imprOvemerit of
the foldier's condition, was to form no additional al-
lurement to thole difpofed to engage in' the Military
life. If the Noble Lord's llatement were jun, that in
general men were rather inclined to prefer unlimited
td limited fOrvice—that the one was productive to a
, great degree, and the other to a very little; there was
' an egregious error in the calculation of thofe Minikes
who drew up the Army of Referve and Additional
Furce ACts. For infead of granting a bounty to fuch
men as volunteered froth limited to stilimited Service,
; IGovernment thould hive had a drawback from them.
But, to be ferious, it was impcflible that the limitation
I of fervice Should have no influence in °braiding re.
. cruits, or that men Should not be more willing to
engage for feven years than for a o indefinite 'period.
; Among other calculations which teemed to tea upon
very quettionable data, the N-ible Lord had citimated
the life of a man at the age of 4o 1' !I:Zit as 2o years.
' He was ready to admit that the N.chle Lnrd mull
, have had much difficulty to enct•cinfer in tuck calcu
laileins X but yet itinUft be felt by every man, 'that
when the Noble Lord was calculating u,sm grounds
I very little better than look conjecture, with a view to
deprecate a fyftem for which he Offered no fubllitpte
whatever, he ought at leaf to have kept within the
bounds of nuaeration. lithe bloble Lord had .natie
any propofitioa in lieu of that which he condemned,
he would have been much more entitled to attention.
But the Noble Lord offered noticing. Qrdinaty re-
cruiting, the Nohle Lord had, for years, repeatedly
maintained, was inadequate to fupply the wants of
the army, and thereforehe could not recommend it
in the prefent infante; nor did he fay that the bat.
lot ought to be revived, or a re'quifition attempted.
Even the Additional Force At the Noble Lord Would
not enforce, for to enforce it would be to produce no
men but money, as the Noble Lord knew.. Thiquet-
tion was, ai to the choice betwee* requifitiotfind in-
ducement.. What would the Noble Lord defire ? He
would not Purely fupportrequifition, nor would he at-
tempt to fupport unlimited bounties ; yet if thole !
bounties were not tolerated, recourfe mutt be had to
other inducements ; Pailiament mutt retort to theone
nk to the other ; either to unlimited bounties, which
I nperatedasepremium for defertinn, nr limited ini vice,
which held out allurements to the recruit, by colder.
ring a brie& upon the fiddier.
In one part of the Noble Lord'► fpeech it was re•
mat kable, that he talked much of the length of a
man's life, which, according to his cflinuate generally
reached to Sixty years. Hare, however, n was the
Noble Lord's object to enlatge the amount of the ex-
pence to be incurred by the Right Hon. Secretary's
projed. But yet wherrhe came to that part where it
was deferable to him to depreciate the operation 'of
this projee, the Noble Lotd-maintained, that Seven
years, being equal to the general eflimate of a man's
life, the people would be as little influenced by the
mention of that period as' if it were Frivoled to them
to enlift for life. upon fuch an inmate of' a males
life, and' he obtervetiors deduced from it, it Was un-
tseceffery to argot: Comm* (este mutt foggell to
any man a &Tacna aafgrer to it. He wouldippeal
to the plaineft undeiltanding whether, if a tenant who
held a leafe for (even years, were to apply to his
landlord to exchange it fora !este of his life, die land.
I lord would Helen to 'the propoliticn ? or whether, if
a tenaht field a leafs for life, he would accede to
the' propotal of his landlord to exchange it for one
of frees years ? To. Rate fuels a cak was enongh in
expofe the futility of the reenark alluded tn, But to
return to the fubjet of limited fervice, the principle
was not only feoftioned by 'he meetings lci /ghiclt
he had already rekri-d, but paiticnlarly recognifed 1
by that Prolific)* which granted a bounty to inch 1
men as volunteered from the limited IQ 011111111ted 41- I

view There was,however, much more in the Right'
Hon. Secretary's plan than mere limited fervice
to proeiire foldiers' and to pleafe the public. Bit the
Nobly Lord's nbjeetion teemed principally to apply 1
to limited f ft vice. I'he Noble Lord himfelf, however,
bore tettimony to the effeets which mutt arife from
fuch a meafure, when he Rated that its adoption would
tend to nothing lefs than to create a mutiny among
the veterans in the army, and alto to excite difcontents
in the navy. And why ? truly becaufe it propofed
to confer what the Noble Lord eonfidered an extra-
ordinary benefit on the army. But, upon this point,
it was to be recollected, that although in the Ameri.
can war feventy.eight thoufand men were railed for
limited fervice, and in the tall French war forty
thoufand, Rill no fyrnptom of difcontent appeared
among the veterans or the navy. But the idea of Inch
difcontent exiling was quite prepofierous. To fup.
pofc that any difcontent could stile in the navy in
confequence of any military arrangement benefiting
tI e foldiery, would be to indulge a fuppofition by no
means honourable to or mud ent wills the charac-
ter of thole who belong to our navy. As to the ve-
terans, the Noble Lord's argument fto,KI thus :—The
army were fatisfied without any addition to their pay
nr pennons, and yet when an addition was to be made
to both, they were, the Noble Lord Rated, to be 4
come extremely dircontented. So much with regard
to the Noble Lord's allufion to the difeontents likely
to arife from the plan and the new operation of the
Inducements which it held out. Now, as to the con-
nation which the project under dirculnon had with
the cede of liberty, the Noble Lord teemed to argue
as if to give the foldier an intereft in civil liberty, to
Itlmilh him with additional resfons for attachment to
the conftitutiop of his country, was to damp his zeal.
What, that when the pay of a foldier was inereafeds—
when his period of fervice was limited—when he had
the prorpeet of returning to the enjoyment of his
country's rights, that be would be lets eager in her
caufe I If that were really the cafe-J.-that when all
the motives were afforded which could terve to ani-
mate a foldiet's mind, that an Englifh foldier would
be infelifible, that Isf would be damped, the thing
was incredible ; but if it were fo, then England was
to be defended by fatellites, and not by'lloFdiers, and
the conllitption wai to rely for its fectleity on an
army infenfible to its *elite, and unworthy of living
under ice aafpices. If the Englilk were really filch
a force, then the old'exciterisent to patriotic valour,
the jr• arh q fp*, hid. Feared to have weight.—
If fuch degeneracy bad taken place, en army of
Pruffians or Manselukes, would sewer as well for the
defeheeof this cotintty ; fur, according to this, our
army was become mere machines, and ceated to be
Englidimen ; if (udh 'were the are, how mach had
• all the 'proviliOns fhiled which here taken to attach
the Military to the Contlitution of the Country; in
fad; to intercede at much as was prafticable the mili-
tary with the eieil character. With that view military
officits were permitted to tit in Parliament, norwith•
Randitigtheir depentlince on the Crown. This per-
miffion was always allowed from the evident policy '
of cultitating as istercourfe het ween the Military and
the Codflitutian of the 'country.. The Officer from
filch iatercourre was, of cotirfe, more likely to excite
in the minds of the Tokliery, a jaft revgunce lot. free-
dom, and %Oscura foldier I<i furni%i4 with a com-
fortable livelihohd, that es u frnatu tally teed to enhance
his climate of himfelf and Isis country. Indeed none
was ever to be faunal in the military eharafter by
whom liberty hatl'iiimi always fo highly prized as
by the old Leglifh Radler. •
•• One of the objects of the Right Honourable Secre-
tary's pill was lis" give the folcliet a competent tub-
fitience lend of this he particularly approved. Every
tentimeat Of humanity, Oilier, and policy called for
the acknment of an adequate provifion to the Ibldi-
try, slier they had become unable to terve.' This
too holding out to therli the prcfpeift 61 having a per-
manent uneven in the nate, formed an additional (ft-
mulus to their zeal while in the fervice. To create
this intera had always been the policy of wife States.
The Romans would '
allow nope into the army but
thole who were poffeffed of property, Ibecaufe with•
our it they did not fuppofe that men were likely' to
feel much interell in the State. In • confequence of
this, the population was divided into fix chiles, the
loweßof whoM, becaufe dellitute, were deeMed on.
worthy •to be Hulled with arms. That wife people
were, therefore, particular about the'confiruenim and
charaerr of their army, and fr they continued'until
towards the period of their decline. They then
changed their In tent. They entrulled their defence
to pre:oi ian bands, and their •liberty was foon the
victim. Their bands became bad foldiers as well as
bad fubleas, and they loon waited' on their Emperor
to requen his order to alTailinate the Senkt 1. This in.
ftitutron having exttnguithed the liberty of the Ro-
mans, that people, becaufe they loon felt they had no-
thing.to fight lot', fpeedily 101 l their greatnefi,' their
independence, and charafter. The conks:veneer the
Romans experienced from committingtheir country to
the protection of the fatellites were two fold —firft,
their ennaitution was loft ; lecondly, their army degene-
tated; and became terribli only to their friends, while
they became infignificant in the eflimation of their ene-
mies. Another reafon for keeping up and improVing
theEharader dour army,arofe out of a conficieration of
our prefent cirt•unillances with rega'rd to France. The
quiver if the French, laid the hon. Gentleman, who,
are pt epai ed toad againn you, mull not be oppofed by
the refute of the Englifh. I do no; of courfe mean to
call the generality of your army therefore Ofyoureotin-
try ; hut certainly you may have a better fort, arid un-
las you cambarthe flower of the enemy with thefiuwer
of your own people, yohr cafe is petitions. But if you
will bring forward the force, which it is in your power
to condi, inlpired with the ctifpotition which Englifh-
men never fail to feel when c"ntending for their coim-
try—fited with that fpirit which is the natural refult
of their confitution—with the public mind, as it were,
marching along their lines, there can be nu doubt as
to the illue of the contell. What any army are com.
intent to, the Briar people are enmpeteht to do, when
properly marfhalled, and the Right Hon. Secretary's
• plan is calcula?eJ to produce that effeft. The people
are to be trained, and thus the cafualties in the army
in the event of invafion may be filled up. By flintier
means the Fabian General was enabled to maintain
hunt-elf upon the Sabine hill, until he found it conve-
nient to Conie'down upon the enemy. If the Romans'
were not a military people, Fabius could not have fo
vied and laved Rome, and, if you are not placed on
the fame footing, neither your independence nor your
liberty are fate ; you mull indeed become either a Isli•

Mary CoVernMet% or a Military people ; Toe lace
' volunteers, almoa at the mercy of the Crown, if it
I
fuck an armed
rbos leaves
arreeular
sg army
your
liberties,
oorthorie etiinauanotrdyinagt
ytthmits
King chofe to try the experiment. I know we have
every fecurity Agana any loch attempt in the cha.
on the throne, but I
exhort you to take every means of interweaving the
confidercwriinianfirdteoolifng the
who
ho
m prefent
theay
bfamily King
K,
nginatththe &eh:Leese.;
Iv,:
would
interefl of the army with your civil sights. such
condua is necefory to maintain the charioteer of.four
country.army,g one andto uAr thenational
attoi
ofyn
aeofuel trfysc
ofeentnyadi
for the fpii it which refults from the on; is that alone
which can preferve the other. If yonr Sonflitntion
were no more, the conflias to be expelled bet Need die
crown and the people would fpeedily bring you to tight
couldtutthe
ic
lona:dite ell to
nadt:i ffnut hrylitrYweellitt,
the battles of France in England. Therefore the Rign:c
Hnn. Secretary has been wife in cooneaing the po.
pular with the regular army, and 611 interefiing the
latter, in oopular rights, as toguard again( fuch dan-
gers as I have alluded to. This brings me to confider
the affertion, that the interference of the Hoare is an
encroachment on the Royal prerogative. But the an-
nual dlfeuffion of the Mutiny Bill is a &Scion &awn
to that affertion. The affertion I have alluded to, I
maintain to be in the higheft degree uneonftitutiooal I
and that the troops of the line are, Itrialy fpeakiag, •
parliamentary army. The Mutiny Bill, indeed, op the
Nei of it, recognizes the tight and authority to which
I refer; and any King or Minifter who &add edyife a
. King to deal with that army in any manner ineoo-
fitleot with the prefcription of Parliament, would be
guilty of a breach of the Bill of Rights. Hence he
contended, that to leave the army entirely to the coo-
troul of the King, was nneonftitutional. He voted
for this plan becaufe it was a good one, and hecaufe
fomething extraordinary was requifite. In ill% an
extraordinary mediae had been deviled by a man of
powerful under-Rending I (the Additional Force Alt
of Mr. Pitt) ; but ithad failed. Whatever plan was
adopted, it &Gold carry the public mind along with
it in order to be fueeetsfyl (a cry of beer/ &so/ flew
the Ohyrstion Iworises, eolith tow swerved fives as aim
irk. wad Ina" aed indwell, rlwated three or few
tipfuJ. That there would be no feeling of )'eeleufy
in feamen or veteran foldiers was clear, from no
fpcit juloofy having exifted when there were much
Arranger motives to excite it. The Honourable
Geptlemen conjured Creep:mem on all fides of the
Houle to devote their minds to the great object to
which the meafure before the Houle alluded ; ob.
(crying that they fhopld he more adverfe to France
ihan to im i 0 another, and that this was not a time to
be occupied about little objects. You mull, laid the
Honourable Gentlemen, direa.your minds to higher
cor.fiderations than thole difeontents witicb we are
tolermaylo4 stile among the navy or among ye.
terao foldiers. ' Let your difficulties be it:matured by
tour danger, eod that difficulties moll be greet that
fhould obtiroel your progrefs. Look at the periloos
grandeur ch f the power that drafts you, and reilea
upon the means necelfary to maintain your own de.
cation. Do not tofu yourfelses to be drawn afide
from the proper provilions for your fecurity by finest- live •
dal calculations. You were told that America
could not fopport bet espeoditure and mutt there-
fore flastwit to your arms. The Caine argument was
applied to France. But the calculation ems
with r‘fpeetto both. The Americans end the French
were vtaoriods. rhea a great station detetwdoes to
facriftee Week's, and maintain a great principle, there
may be danger, there May be filch a thing as deaths
but there **boot be defeat,
The MASTER of the ROLLS differed from the
Hoooqrahle Geotleinasi who (poke lafl in many
points. He could very wall underhand how the
meafure might not be profitable in inereafing the
army; abcl yet be exceffivelybuidenfome to the cowl-
try. The Himintrible Gentlemn.appeared to him
to have (Paned a eery different idea of what was us.
ceirary for an army, than the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Windham) had Propofed ; for al.
though 'that Right Honourable Gentleman had talk-
ed fomething about did privileges, they did not form
any part of the plan which had been opened. The
etamples firawe from the condua of defpotie Soca . a
reigqs to their armies, would not apply to this coon- .' .
try. In defpotic States, a deal of the pen would ra
move the inconvenience and the contraa: a French
Sovereign Might promife; and then publifh an onion.
sates to eseufe the non performances but Britith
promifes and Ads of ?ornament were not to be Co
done awgy. On the Conftiturional part of the quef-
lion; it would be proper to fay, that if the meafure
were to be carried into afar, it ought to receive its
operaiTon from the Crown without any.parliamentary
interpofition. The King, no doubt, had complete
authority'to limit the fervice. The prefent claufe
was incongruous with the whole tenor of the Mutiny
Bill; that was to augment the powers of his Majely,
bat this was to refine thofe powers. He was forty
to hear it faid that foldiers were rather to look to the
Legifiature thah to the Sovereign, under the idea of
aay diffidence in the latter; whatever miftakes might
have been committed byparticulor officers,he believed
there had been no breach of any deliberate contrite
by the Executive Government. When once limited
fervice was recommended as a great boon fanaioned
by Parliament, an impreffion would be produced in
favour of it which it would be impoffible to remove, •
and the confequence would be, that indefinite fer-
rite could not be reflored,however neceffary it might
become to the public fecurity. Nothing had yet been
laid to thew how this fchemecnuld be accommodated
to our colonial eflablifhments, and this made the
great diltinetion in the prefent cafe, for Britain had
this peculiar °Neel to preferve, which was compara-
tively of no confequence with thole countries, where
limited fervice had been adopted. The Right Ho.
nohrable Gentleman (Mr. Windham). prefumed, al-
though the foldiers had a right to be difcharged, that
they would not avail themfelves of loch a right....
It was too much in the Right Honourable Gentle.
man to copal, that in the abfence of all proof his
prediElions were to be lubilituted for fens. A little
had been Paid of the injurious effects of limited fer.
vice iii this country ; it was well known that the in•
dependence of America had nearly been facrificed
to this egregious error in the military fyttem of the
provinces. The Additional Force Bill, the Army
of Referve Bill, and the mode of recruiting by bal-
lot, had all been abandoned, fo that now nothing re-
mauled to interfere with the regular army. Why

~1

fhould not this then be tried ? He hoped Mkuhlert 't
would either withdraw this hazardous and impolitic t
projeft, or at leaft produce it in the Committee in a i
More digefted (late. If they would do neither of
thefe, he molt make tile of the rights he had, and give I
his decided oppofition to the meafure.
The SOLICITOR GENERAL was extremely
lorry, that his Learned Friend had faid In little on
the novel had dangerous doarines advanced in the
confiner this debate. It was faid,.that this ought
net to be aft:bled of diftuffion. What was the rub-
ice before the Committee ? It was a Mutiny Bill I
a bill ielddt detlated it mould be lawful for the King I
to &Alia Courts Martial, and that only for one
year t a bill which faid, that it was unlawful to quar-
ter troops upon the Indio", and reibieed this burden '
only to one year. In this bill a clank was propofed
limiting military fervice to (even years, and it was to
be aliened, that fuck a clears In inch a bill was on-
conftitutional. But this was not to be done in a
Mutiny Bill. If it were to be abrogated, how could
it more conveniently be introduced than into an an-
nual bill ? The Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
bid, that it was wrong fuch a meafure Giould be fang.
tioned by Parliament ; it would have furl a power-
ful Itffea upon the public mind ; and yet its, the fame
breath the Committee was told that theyA who
entered into the fervice were utterly indifetent if it
were limited or indefinite. One moment this was a
great boon, which would render limited ferries in
future seepodfible, the next it was nine valee,mdene
additiooal Mtn would not be added to the arney by
the coneeffion. He left Gentlemen on the esker
fide of the Houle to reconcile there glaring WNW
teneies. The moR extraordinaryargustient was, that
it was dangerous to the conftitation to enlift ibidiers •
task a limited time, and therefore the fchems ought
to be rejetted. Did Gentlemen remember how sa-
lmis the natives of this Mend had always been
of a Rending army in the heft times of our hiftory.
"Vby was the Militia preferred, but becaufe they
were engaged for a limited time, and returned again
faM the leafs of citizens. Did not Gentlemen re
member, that the foldier rafters the Habeas Corpus
!la and the Trial by jury. He would quote the
Innitiasents of a great and learned Judge, who he be-
lieved was indebted for his preferment to the abilities
be difplayed in the work to which he fhould now re-
fer. " In a land of liberty it is extremely dangerous
M made a dißina order of the profeffion of arms.—
Zn &Volute monarchies this is neceffary for the fafety
Of the Prince, and stiles from the main principle of
their Conflitution, which is that of governing by
fear: but in free Antes the profeffion of a foldier,
taken tingly and merely as a prefeMon, is juftly
an objell of jesionfy. lii there no man fhould take
up pruis, but with a view to defend his country and
its lairs t he puts not off the citizen when he enters
the camp 1 but it is becaufe he is a citizen, and would
brifh to continue fo. that he mikes himfelf, for a
while, a foldier. The laws, therefore, and conßi-
kution of there kingdoms, know no fuch Rate asthat
of a perpetual Rending foldier, bred op to no other
profelion than that of war : and it was not until the
reign of Henry VII. that the Kings of England had
to much as a guard about their perfons."—" No-
thing, then, according to tittle principles, ought to
be more guarded againft in a free Rate, than making
the military power, when fuch a one is neceliary to
be kept on foot, a sody too diftine from the people.
Like ours, it fhould wholly be compofed of natural
fubjeas ; it ought only to be enlifted for a fhort and
limited time ; the foldier: alto fhould live intermixed
with the people; no feparate camp, no barracks, no
inland fortrefes, fhould be allowed. And, perhaps,
it might be Rill better, if; by difmiffing a Rated nom•
bee, and enliaing others at every renewal of their
term, a circulation could be kept up between the
army and the people, and the citizen and the foldier
be more intimately connefled together." What was
ft that had happened Rote this luminous author pub.
Silted his Commentaries, that Mould diminills this
isaloufy of a Rending army ? Was it becaufe the
]ending army was three times as numerous ? Was it
becaufe it had been necefuy to eltablifh barracks ?
Was it bumf( a great military defpotifm had been
expanding Well over Europe, or becaufe every ad-
vancing year the veltiges of liberty were progreffively
dettroyed among* the furrounding empires? We had
no fuperiority of anteater force, ofmilitary di lei pli n e.
or of knowledge in the art of war, over our opponent:
we had nothing to oppofe to him which gave us a
decided advantage, but the zeal of our folchery, who
were not to fight for a glittering tyrant, but for them•
selves, for their own liberties, for a caufe in which
every man mutt confider, that if he fell in the field,
he was a martyr to the freedom of his country.—
To make him burn with thefe energetic fentiments of
virtue and patriotifm, he mat feel that he was not
only a foldier but a citizen. He (the Solicitor Ge-
neral) could not Pico with patience to the cold arith-
metic of his Honourable and Learned Friend (Mr.
Percival), who exclaimed, with a fort of triumph,
that after the foldier had fpent z t years in the fgt.-
vice, we had bought all this for (*lateen guineas. If
be had counted the fears on the breaft of the veteran,
with the fame precifion that he reckoned the guineas,
the liberality of his nature would have revolted at
fuch a frigid calculation. Then, he added, thefe
Minifters hat ceconomy on their lips, but not in their
hearts. The economy for which they contended.
could, indeed, find no place in the heart. Whether
be looked to the principles of the Britifh Confiitu-
; whether he attended to the voice of reafon,
juftice, and humanity; whether he regarded the max-
-11135 of political wifdom, recognized in paft times ;
on whatever fide he contemplated this meafure, new
motives were prefented to give it his cordial fupport.
General NORTON (poke againft the claufe, and
fuggelled an amendment, that troops in the home
glands lbould be attelied to ferve not only during the
term of !even years, but until fix months after the
termination of any war in which their time fhould
expire ; troops in the Mediterranean or Welt Indies
to ferve for twelve months, and in the EaR Indies for
eighteen months after the termination of fuch war.
Colonel CRAUFURD replied to fome of the cal.
culations of increafed expences to the fervice which
would be annually produced by this arrangement,
which he contended would only be an increafe of
637,0001. inftead of 1,638,0001. Rated by the Noble
Lord, which was an error of above a million.
Sir WILLIAM LEMAN, after exprefling his
high approbation, and warm& thanks for the very
conftitutional fpeech this night by the Solicitor Ge-
neral, faid, he had ever thought a large Banding armyi

a great grievance to the country l and, if there were
a neccffity for its exifience. it was, defirable to have
it upon principles as conititutional as poffible.
Lord LOUVAIN: walled to be informed, if the
prefent army of the country was not eitablithed oa
conflitutional principles ? .
General STUART, notwitlalaoding the ergo-
meats which had been offered by fevers! Learned
Gentlemen, and by an Hon. Iri(h Orator (Mr. Grat-
tan), who fpeke early in the Debate, could not agree
in the good confequences that were anticipated from
this plan. It was Paid, it would not only procure a
rapid fupply of men, but :bore of a better defcrip-
tion. He did not conceive the army could have a
better defeription than that of foldiers, and as to
better orders of men, he thought the common day
labourers made better foldiers than tradefmen or
clerks ; he fpoke from the experience of ten years as
a Commanding Officer ; and he could not coincide
in the opinions of the Hon. Irith Orator.
Mr. GRATTAN felt it neceffary to fay a word or
two in anfwer to the Honourable General who had
jug fat down, and who had thrown fume of his fcat.
tering Riot towards that fide of the Houfe. The Hon.
General, though he did not deliver his fentiments in
the Ryle of an Irith Orator, Teemed to betray foam
froptoms of an Irifh underftanding ; but he could
with the Honourable General had evinced a little
better acquaintance with Irifh order. But notwith-
(landing the confidence of the Hon. General in the
opinion he avowed, he (Mr. Grattan), begged leave
to decline his authority, either as an hills Orator or
an bilb Officer.

General STUART replied, that though he did
not profefs to be an IriOa orator, he hoped he Ibould
-away► maintain the cbarater of an It ifb 'skier.—
(Lead aid reload &trim's.)
Lord DE-BLACQIIIE RE (poke at confiderable
length in fupport of the Clinic.
Mr. BANKES had no oijeCtion to making an ex-
periment of the propofsd meafure, yet he expreffed
himfelf adverfe to a general recruiting fyilem I as
he con l:Wed general recruiting, very advantageous
to the army, but calamitous to the country, in refe-
rence to its ufual occupations--thofe of commerce,
hufbandry, and manufadores. He was willing to
give the meafure a fair trial, bat hoped after that, if
it failed, his Majetty's !Colliers would not puha, but
fubilitute fomething which might, upon mature con-
fideration, be found more effedual._ _ _

Lord dARLIES thought upon fo cerioos a fubjett
he fhoold not give a Meet vote, and had on hefitat;on
in declaring, from all the confideration he could give
the fubjeft, that it mull be extremely detrimental to
the regular army, and, therefore, be voted againil
the meafure.

The queftion was now loudly called for, and ban.
gera ordered to withdraw. While escluded,we under.
(land. Mr. WINDHAM made a few obfervations in
reply, after which a divifion took place, when there
appeared—For the claufe, ao6—againft it, toy—
Majority sot. The report was then brought op, and
ordered to be taken into further confideration this day.
The other orders of the day were then difpofed of,
and at Two o'clock (this morning) the Houle ad.
j•turned..