Star.
London, England, 1831-03-10 00:00:00

DIVIDENDS.

April 12, J. Duke Etasinghall-street, warehouseman, at three, at
the Court of Commissioners—April 1, W. Bullard, Maidstone, Kent,
chemist, at three, at the Court of Commia•iioners, London-3larch i 9,
J. Poynton and T. Poynton, Brook street, Holborn, hatdwareinen, at
nine. at the Court of Commissioners--1114rch 29.0. G. Giroux, Webb's
County Terrace, New Kent-road, music-seller, at eleven, at the Court
of Commissioners—,March 26, T. Hurst, J. Hurst, and J. 0. Robinson.
Waterloo-place. Pall-mall, booksellers, at ten, at the Court of Commis-
sioners— March 29, W. Sloan, Shad Thames, liorselydown, South-
wark, stone merchant, at nine, at the Court of Commissioners—March
29, W. C. Hitch, Hereford, statuary, at twelve, at the Court of Com-
tuis.iontrs— March 26, T. Bourne, Norwich, woollen draper, at
twelve, at the Court of Commissioners—March 29, William

risen), Maidstone' Kent, cattle salesman, at twelve, at the
Court of Commisaioners—Much 29, T. Edgar, Nottingham-
place, Commercial-road, draper, at twelve, at the Court of Commis-
sioners— ltlarch 29, J. Berridge, George-yard, Whitcombe.street.
stable keeper, at eleven, at the Court of Comtuissioners--March 29,
R. Wright, Theobald's.road. builder, at eleven, at the Court of Coin.
missiontrs—March 29, J. Scott, Bread-street, Cheapside, shawl ware-
houseman, at one, at the Court of Commiuioners--31arch 29, H.
Simons, Blackmore, Essex, grocer, at twelve, at the Court of Commis.
slot:en—March 31, J. Cooper, ncing, Sussex, grocer, at nine, at the
sea House Hotel, Worthing—April 13, A. P. La Bigne. Bristol, wine
inerchant,at two, at the Commercial Rooms, Bristol—March 29. W.
Fisher, IVhitehaven, Cumberland, draper, at eleven, at the Office of
Mr. Hodgson, Whitehaven.
CERTIFICATES--Nlaacti 29.
W. Young, Rochester, Kent, coach master—H. Crutch and A.
Crutch, Loudwater, Chipping Wycombe, Buckinghamshire, paper ma-
nufacturers—G. Symmons, Atherstone, Warwickshire, bookseller—
J.: Glover, Wigan' Lancashire, draper—G. A. I Wren, Wentworth-
place, Mile End-road, general merchant-...J. V. Complin, New Aires-
ford, Southampton, corn merchant—J. Foster, Derby, grocer—J. Pen-
ning, Holles.street, Cavendish-flume, cabinet maker—J. Botchetby,
Darlington, Durham, linen manufacturer.
PA RTN ERSII IPS DISSOLVED.
W. Cook and E. Burrows, Little Thurrock, Essex, grocers—J.
Candle and P. Drake, Briglithelmstone, chernists--J. Mitchell and Co.
Leeds, cloth-dressers—S. and G. Jcssop, Hanley, Yorkshire. drysalters
—H. and M. ileticy, S:ainford, Lincolnshire, milliners- -J. C. Hurst
and' G. Edgar, Darttord, surgeons—J. Smith and Co. Lakenheath, Suf-
folk. general shopkeepers (so far as regards J. Smith, sen.) - T. and J.
Spencer, Ledbury, Here:Ordshire, woollen-drapers.

ON LORD WrNFORD'S BILL.
Utatatea ifagitiis sic nunc
Legibas laborati.
intituled,—" An Am to prevent Debtors fn defrauding tbeir Cri a:-
ton by tying in Prison or absconding from England."
The cause of humanity, of charity, of liberty, are words in
fashion ; the cheap passports to celebrity. Every mouth is
full of them. Yet, at no time, was there ever seen miads so
callous to ti' sufferings of the destitute prisoners, or persons
so concentrated in mean personal interests. Professions of
humanity are converted into dispensations from the practice '
of it, and the glaring contrast between their language and
their conduct neither excites shame nor provokes reprobation.
In these observations, we point to no fixed figure for the
hand of scorn ; though many are the counterfeits, whom the
sincere philanthropist might denounce to reason, to truth,
to common sense, and to public utility. We accuse no
one: we make no personal allusion. We will not, however,
suppress the expression of our surprise on seeing exhibited,
in the preamble of a bill, lately carried into the house of
Peers,by a learned Lord, the wonder exciting discovery of con-'
fined Debtors living idly and luxuriously in prison. We won-
dered where the Noble Lord could have ferretted out all those
pampered happy creatures--where are they ? Shall we seek
them among those civil victims, immolated to that rapacious
idol commercial credit, exclaiming with a thousand voices,
credit is indispensable ; it is the god of trade—the pedestal
of fortune! Yet, what is credit ?—if it be not fictitious
wealth, the extinguisher of all real wealth, economy. When I
that treacherous bane credit is administered, ruin is the de-
creed destiny of him alto takes it. The misery begins the
moment it is accepted. The dismal jail lowers io the per-
spective ! Already grates on his fearful ears, the appalling
sound of its doors opening to count him among the tenants
of its gloomy abode. Are Lord Wynford's luxurious idle
voluptuaries to be found in that aggregation of deplorable in-
digence ? Did he seek them among the outcast beings,
languishing without succour—without food—a prey to dis-
ease and poverty, in a hopeless state of opprobrium and
humiliation: unfortunates whom Providence appears to have
compensated in no other manner for having given them life,
than by the hope of soon ending it. These victims of the
barbarity of the laws, are, besides, guilty of no crime, but
that of haring been seduced into the acceptance of credit.
lf, however, their criminality be a problem, their misery is
not. For with all the respect we entertain for the authority
of Lord Wynford, the statement, contained in the pream-
ble of his Bill, is unanswerably negatived, on higher autho-
rity even than his own. It comes with that sacred cha-
racter of truth, which the combined sophistry of the world
cannot obliterate. It will not be by the exaggeration of the
miseries, for the relief of which I am the humble advocate,
that I hope to conquer his Lordship's conviction, or to im-
plore his compassion for the extreme wretchedness so long
neglected ; but by a simple exposition of facts, and by the
observations of the most humane of mankind—well worthy
all his attention.

The immortal Howe RD, in his circumnavigation of huma-
nity, on his return, after visiting those mansions of sorrow
on the Continent, saw in no part of Europe so much misery
as he found in the gaols of England. He blushed for
the cruel laws, and merciless proceedings, of his own
Country. He had no where witnessed so little
attention paid to the misery of prisoners for debt, as in
England. He found them in every part of the kingdom, the
" most pitiable objects in our jails," wanting necessary
sustenance, and literally starving. Want of food was the
general complaint. Every where he heard the dismal cry,
"We arc locked up and starved to death." He further
save, " Many who went in healthy are, in a few months,
changed to emaciated dejected objects ; some are seen pin-
ing under disease, sick, and in prison expiring on the floors."
In a burst of indignant humanity he exclaims, " that, how-
ever sanguinary the wish of an unfeeling creditor may be,
when he arrests and imprisons his debtor, their destruction
is not only unjust, but is inconsistent with prudence and
sound policy." And further he says, " that this frequent
confinement in prison had convinced him how full of empha-
tical meaning is that curse of a severe creditor, who pro-
nounces his debtor's doom to rot in jail." Yet, now we
are to have a bill, exciting him to severity by law, and to
protect him in it.
Mr. Howe IID continues, " Hearing the cries of the mise-
rable, I devoted my time to their relief. In order to pro-
cure it, I made it my business to collect facts, the materials
of which could not be disputed." Has Lord Wynford never
read Mr. Neild's book, describing the destitution of the
poverty-stricken wretches, confined for small debts; has he
never seen the appeals of the sheriffs, annually calling
on the charity of the country, in aid of the stareing
dormers locked up in the dungeons of London. We
unshrinkingly say, that before he introduced a bill so
penal in its consequences, it was a sacred duty imposed upon
him, to have made himself better acquainted with the state
of the prisons and with gaols, so corroborated by such unde-
niable evidence, as to make it impossible to the most obdurate
incredulity to lessen their effects, or to counteract the con-
clusion deducible from them.

Let the learned lord follow Mr. Hown ft D's example—let
him visit the jails ; he ‘‘ ill there see details of wretchedness
at which humanity shudders. He will there meet with the
refutation of his supposititious preamble the spurious offspring
of an ardent imagination, a new fiction—added to others—
the satire of our laws. There he would see starving deb-
tors crowded together, and misery presenting itself in so
many hideous forms, that he might arrive at a more enlight-
ened justice, through the sentiment of a generous compassion.
The u igorous close imprisonment of the debtor's person, as
the first stepiu the process, on the showing of a creditor,
on his mere affidavit so liable to suspicion, cannot be justified
on the principles of sound policy. It is gratuitous punish-
ment, useless to society and productive of the greatest evils.
It is unjust, as it constituted no part of the contrambetween
the parties, when credit was either given or accepted. He
who gave never stipulated for, nor would he who
accepted, have taken it, on the condition of hy-
potheticating his person, in default of payment.—
If the taking the body of the debtor, on the failure of his
engagement, formed any part of its conditions, the dread

.~~++

of the jail might have warned hint against the seductions of
credit, and many wretches would have been re-r'ee'l from
falling the victims of a temptation in which tbe:e i, no
proportion between the temptation and the formidahlt 10.
cult. Had such a reflection ever occurred, bon many
multitudes who have suffered a lingering and prettiatlea-
death, would have shrunk from the conseytentia! pettish .
went, with the ruffian suddenness of its mortal in!:iction,
before trial, and without any preliminary judgment.
Take away credit altogether, or make it less penal ; g' a• it
no connection with the prison ; when character would re-
sume its influence, and ;Aims become unnecessary atal
untenanted. But so far from taking any precautions against
heedless extravagance, every facility of getting into debt i 4
offered to thoughtless imprudence. Let the man who trty!a
make himself acquainted with the person trusted ; let him
enquire whether his reputation be without blemish and
without reproach, and, seldom would it happen, that be
became the victim of his confidence. How mournful and
revolting is the picture of the misery inflicted on individuals,
on families, on the state itself, from the multitudes whom
credit uselessly imprisona, and wantonly immolates on its
i altars. If the prisoner be the father of a family, the et i; 1.
irreparable. Who will putted, who will maintain titian,
' when no longer subsisted by the daily labour of the father '
Vot political calculators counterbalance this dreadful abuse I,
the pretended support it gives to commerce ; there are °the',
who boast of the purification that takes place in these fu.
' paces of adversity and debasement. But the corruption ~1
morals inseparable from them, and the depravity.lhere inc: .
cated, are notorious. Nor can these cruelties &-Ijustffigh
from any expectation of recovering the debt ; that heconi. ,
impossible, and is often abandoned as hopeless—a I !VIII 41.
1 vulged in the grim records of every prison, and confirmed ii;
' daily experience. All that the relentless creditor derive ,
from his cruelty is revenge ; or the regret of not having pre
ferred indulgence to imprisonment. Confinement has ruined
his debtor. What can remain to him *hose occupation is
gone, whose Mends and supporters fly from him—whose de-
tention has destroyed even his hopes—who has no-
' thing to lose, and from whom nothing can be extorted !
Chemistry can extract no more gold front mixed bodies than
is included in them ; nor can the torturing crucible of a gaol
work out of the marrowless bones of indigence, the liquidation
iof a debt he has not the means of discharging. Had not a
I blind destiny pronounced otherwise, would not the severity
lof the law, and its fanciful offences, so preposterously con-
Ifounded, have been, long since, in favour of the Os/titer,
' mitigated—not inflamed ? Had not a perverse fate low:-
posed, should we have seen, at a moment when the c:ut I
abuses which had crept into the administration of justice 0 0! ..
ito be reformed, an Act of Parliament proposed for the adopt in.*
1 of the legislature, to render it auxiliary to the oppression of the
imprisoned debtor ; and which, if passed into a law, o ould
leave him no hope of ever escaping from the sanctuary of
justice, but in beggary, in ruin, and dishonour Should Ise
have seen a new law without that wisdom which holds the
balance equally between the parties, and discerns with pru-
dence the exact point which separates the just from the
unjust ? No, indeed : but we continue to see the confound-
ing, in matters of debt, the innocent with the guilty, among
the barbarisms of modern statesmen. In the proposed bill
' of the noble and learned lord, no distinction, clear and pre-
cise, is established, or attempted to be established, be-
tween the honest and . the fraudulent debtor ; no line
of demarcation drawn between innocent insolvency and
inveterate fraud ; the one blended with the other in sweep-
ing reprobation. Yet how wide is the difference. Ins.a -
vency is the impossibility of paying, occasioned by misfor-
tune, by losses, by sudden imprisonments, by abuses of the
law, by its ruinous nsesne process, and by an army of taint-
ciona practitioners, the vultures and vampires of the lower
orders of society in England. On the other hand, fraud
is the offence of secretly assigning effects, of concealing
or falsifying books, of creating creditors, and of
setting up fictitious debts. Fraud is a crime, in-
solvency a misfortune. In the preamble, however, of
Lord Wyndford's bill, they appear synonimorm. The thus
confounding ideas and principles, is in its tendency most
mischievous. It is productive of this great evil, that from
such disorder and confusion, all correct notions cl pioliitv
become effaced and disappear. An inevita:ile result, waro,.
ever misfortune and crime are confounded. If the honest
and diahonest be f.unished with the same indiscriminating
severity," regardless of good or of evil tame," it would be to
favour the unjust at the expence of the just, at least in tespect
of character. Besides, there are fraudulent creditors aril
usurers, as well as fraudulent debtors ; and such bills, as Lord
Wynford's, are calculated to enable the rapacious to turn to
his account the necessities of the just, and to profit from his
own injustice.
Yet all these ill-boding enactments are not enotq..l).
All the sources of unmerited obloquy are exbaestt II
to calumniate the insolvent whom they cannot con-
demn. New, misplaced, and rigorous enactments,
are annually divulged, by which the severity of the t x
isting law between debtor and creditor is petpetitated and
aggravated. Every thing is done for extreme jos-
tise and oppressive opulence, nothing for suffering; lm-
inanity. The pretext of the public advantage, the sure pre-
cursor of some merciless encroachment, and the legislature
seems employed in contriving laws useful to those who pos-
sess, and beating down all who have nothing. These
legislators, the moment the pison doors close on the
debtor, consider all the ties which unite blur to society
dissolved, and every sentiment of compassion extin-
guished. It cannot be doubted that the freedom fromarrese
for debt, by which the members of either house,
framers of acts of parliament, are shielded front
the misery they inflict, is the germ of that reek
less insensibility which has taken such root. --The
having no dread of becoming one has rendered them
callous to the sufferings of the prisoner. It is an exemption.
operating at once as much an instrument of attack as of
defence. In the moral certainty of never being placed under
similar circumstances, they neither sympathise with, nor
commiserate a calamity, from which they consider them-
selves exempt. .Take away the privilege of the person, as
the French have done ; bring peers of the realm, as well as
commoners under the operation of the law of arrest; make
them suffer, or fear to suffer, and the genius of sympathy,
that divine sentiment,—" ilaud ignara mali miseris
succurrere disco"—would awaken in their minds a ge-
nerous fellow feeling. They would no longer look
upon the abasement and misery of jails as a condition fo-
reign to themselves, in which they had no concern. It
would be always present to their thoughts ; it would he for
ever recurring, it is the fate of another to-day, it mi,gla be
mine to-morrow.

Take away the privilege of Parliament, the freedom limn
arrest for debt and we shall hear no more of preliminary
close imprisonments, before a wretched insolvent can take
what is called the benefit of the act; or of making
outlawries more penal ; the extinction of bail in civil cases ;
of enlarged powers given to the provisions of the Lords'
Act; and of unrestricted sweeping con** dons. All
clauses contained in the Act now in prograbi, with uhich
prisoners origitives for debt are threatened by Lord Wyn-
ford—clauses which we do not: fear to denounce as mon-
stious and repugnant to sound policy—dangerous wearcns,
from which society will derive no advantage, of which the
honest creditor will make no use, and which nine time:
ir ten will secure the triumph of avarice, El usury. ialld
tortion.

~~ ~,~
;,

agroast.

4.

' R

••
ked

IMPERIAL r" "?.L

HOUSR OF LORDS, 31Ancti 9.
The LORD CIIANCP.LI.OII tonic hi. peat on the *dolga& *
fee o'clock, and the Earl cf SHAFTESBURY forwarded the bile on
the table.

The Marine Mutiny bill was read the 6etond time.
The Report of the Committee on Lord Wynford's bill, to prevent
r?4,ld, rue creditors. was sec ivcd —Third reading to-morrow.
The Watling-street Improvement bill was read a third time.
The Richmond Lonatic Asylum hill passed through a Committee.
The Earl of RADNOR presented a petition from the inhabitant's
of Manning, in Yorkshire, praying for Parliamentary Reform.
Sir A. GRANT. and other Members from the Commons, brought up
the Army Mutiny bill, and two private bins, which were read the first
time.
Mr. Tomlins, front the Treasury, presented a return of the quantity
of foreign wool imported within given data.
The anneal Report of the Commissioners of Shoreham Harbour was
presented at the bar, and laid upon the table of the house.
Their Lordships adjourned at half-past five till to-morrow.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. LEG!! KECK brought up thereport of the Dover Election
Committee. The sitting members were declared duly elected.
Lord EASTNOR brought up the report of the Stockbridge Election
• '..tuilitt,ee., to the same effect.

Mr. PHI I.LPOTTS presented a petition from Gloucester, in sup.
port of the present measure of Reform.
Mr. H. HUGH RS presented a petition from the Ladies of Etyde.
Isle of Wight, for the abolition of Negro Slavery. The hon. member
moved that the petition be printed.
Mr. S. RICE opposed the motion, on the ground of economy.
After a short conversation between Mr. LITTLETON, Mr. DUN.
comae, Mr. EVANS, Mr. HART DAVIS, and Sir JOHN NEWPORT,
Ole lions/ divided—
Ayes ... IS
Noes ... .. 47

Majority against ptinting the petition ... 31
Mr. IiODGES presented petitions from Ilythe, Folkston, and
Gravesend, in favour of the plan of reform proposed by ministers.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from Stockport, complaining of dis.
tress. and praying for reform of Parliament, annual Parliaments, uni-
versal suffrage, end vote by ballot. He was hound to say. that though
he still maintained his opinions on those ,pointa, all those who formerly
acted with him were perfectly saddled with the plan of reform proposed
by his 31ajesty's ministers. He never saw such an accumulation of
public opinion in favour of any measure ; the country were, in fact,
Tanning wild for it, Toe inhabitants of Stockport, 'since that plan was
proposed, met again.' and agreed on a petition in favour of that plan
of Reran!), which they had sent him to present. The Honourable
Gentleman presented the petition, and a similar petition from Lam.
teeth ; and a peti.ion from two parishes in Kilkenny. for the abolition
of tithes and the repeal of the Union. He supposed from what was
said by the Learned Member for Waterford last night, that the repeal
of the Union weuld, at least, be suspended to give place to the great
measure of Reform.

O'CONNELL said he Kupported one measure without any re.
terence to the other.

Mr. BENET presented a petition from Caine, in favour of the plan
of reform proposed by ministers. The petition was signed by every
member of the corporation. The hon. gentleman presented a similar
petition from Devizes.
Lord GEORGE LENNOX presented a similar petition from
Chichester.

Mr. K E3IP said he had presented a petition from Lewes for reform,
including short parliaments, extensive suffrage, and vote by ballot : but
since the plan proposed by ministers had become known, they had writ-
ten to him, declaring their perfect acquiescence in that plan, and de-
siring him to support it.
Mr. J. SMITH said the whole country were unanimous in favour of
the plan of reform proposed by ministers.
Sir H. PARNEILL presented four petitions from parishes in Ireland
for the abolition of slavery.
Mr. LEFROY presented eleven petitions from parishes in Ireland,
against slavery.
Captain BOUVERIE presented a petition from Salisbury, in favour
of the plan of reform proposed by ministers. AU the corporation agreed
in the measure.

Mr. BENET supported the petition, and said the corporation of
Salisbury always returned independent members to parliament.
Mr. HUNT said the Corporation of Salisbury had returned mem.
berm like other corporations; but now, like all other Corporations,
they were declaring themselves In favour of the plan proposed by
Ministers.
Col. TRENCH said language was used at public meetings, tending
to excite the people against that house. At a parish meeting in the
city of London, a Mr. Hill said there was in the House of Commons an
audacious opposition, who appeared to be determined to resist reform
till it came in the shape of revolution ; and Mr. Tooke, a solicitor, said
the ministers should have the voices of the people, and, if necessary,
their arms, n support of the plan of reform. He thought these threats
should unite every Englishman in a determination to resist menace, and
decide the question according to reason. He did not wish to make any
motion on the subject, but would leave it to members to do their
duty (Hear.)
Mr. LITTLETON said he deprecated all violence ' • those who
threatened it .were the greatest opposers of the measure, and must in-
jure it ; at the same time he thought the opponents of the measure
should be more guarded in their language, and not call the plan
proposed revolutionary. (Hear, hear, hear.) On the part of his
constituents, he must deny it. No measure had ever been more uni-
versally approved by them, and they were fat from having any revolu-
tionary designs. ( H ear.)
Sir GEORGE CLERK said he must regard the measure, as
changing the Constitution, and in that way effecting a revolution.--
( Hear, hear.)

Mr. BEAU MONT thought the measure was calculated to prevent
revolution. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. KENNEDY said, that according to all the information he could
collect, the whole of Scotland opposed the proprosed bill.
Mr. LITTLETON remarked, that in the last conversation he had
with Mr. Huskissoa, that gentleman had said, that the whole of the
representation of Scotland must be changed. Had Mr. H. been alive,
he doubted not that he would have supported the measure.
Sir C. WETHERELL declared, he was confident, had Mr. Can-
ning and Mr. Huskisson been alive, they would not have supported this
jacobinical hill. (Cheers and laughter.) Petitition ordered to be
printed.
Mr. W. WYNN brought up a return of the half-pa; officers in the
army.

The Order of the Day having been moved for the rexuntntion of the
Debate, _ _

Lord A ',THORP expressed the hope that the debate might be
closed this evening, even if the House sat to a later hour.

Mr. PERCEV AL said he had pledged himself to give the present
bill his most determined opposition. He had not a shadow of doubt on
his mind that the moment tbis bill should pass the death-blow was
given to the monarchy of England. (Hear.) Hi would not object to
the bill being brought in, but all friends of the Constitution were called
on to disabuse the public mind on this subject. lie was aware there
must be prejudices against him as the son of a Tory minister —the
holder of a sinecure place—and the representative of a rotten borough.
He wail! endeavour to remove that prejudice, even though it com.
pelled him to speak of himself. iVhen he attained his age, he nein.
rally desired a seat in that house. He could have felt no difficulty in
obtaining a seat from his lajesty'e ministers ; but he shrunk from
coming in bound into Parliament. and obta;ned a seat which left him
free to act as he pleased ; and the first and second time he spoke in that
house was in opposition to ministers. He came into the house with the
ittention of discharging his duty faithfully; and though as the son of
a Tory minister, he was naturally disposed to support the dignity of the
crown, he was equally well disposed to maintain the liberties of the
people ; and when a motion was made for a reform in Parliament in
though nor able to support it, he left the house to avoid voting
against it. He was. however, determined to oppose, to the utmost of his
power, the detestable measure now before the house. There were two
other prejudices which he must remove. The Secretary for Ireland said
the people were demanding their constitutional rights, and they
could not be constitutionally refused; and the Lord Advocate for
Scotland had said, those whose seats were to he affected by the mea-
sure had no right to vote on this question. He gave the lie to these
uneonstitu.ional doctrines, and dared any man in the house to rise up
to defend them. He felt for the Members who made them the
greatest personal respect ; but be would not spare the term that ought
to he used on the occasion. The Secretary for Ireland charged the
opposers of the measure with calling it revolutionary, and with cheer-
ing the ezpression ; and the Hon. Member for Preston had talked of
the horrid yells of the hydra of corruption. in the agonies of death.
He believes be was one of the loudest barkers on the occasion, and
lie would be ashamed if be cheered without being able to defend the
expression. It was allowed that carrying the measure by force would
be revolutionary-and it was the next stage to force when it was
carried under the menace of force, by the language used by the press
and at pubic meetings. (Hear.) He knew the Kate of men's hearts
on this question ; he saw their countenances cast darn when he met
them in the street.—(A laugh) The tone of its supporter, was a
little changed of bee, but to 4 at the language that was used by that
vile and profligate thing, the pass of England.—( Laughter and cheer.)

We were the slaves of that worthless and vile thing. and hundreds'
admitted it in private that would nut own it in publie.—( Hear.) 1
In his conscience he considered measure revolutionary. He
would read what the Ilf ' tilionlate, a paper written with
great abLity, said of tile Ip of Grey, when he said he
vain The gentleman then realt.e's
illkttibZi,hrlentalia in glz bf Commons was iflefetilled
orninAtrape
with , lame Hoot a not stand." (Hose, hear.)
A oar it
1 " ',Attila by 4 man of gregiftleit, ,
„Ida sew wific " ' Mould deprive tireft* en
the* power hfid uSk and whelk' be mote to the area* ftist
people—why should there be one law for the lord and anothei few the
labourer 7 If we thought the reform would leave the law of
niture unrepealed, we should alunist %lie hitdvoeuy." (C=
He would ask if the Neuss of ConThrobb %Minot fora length of ' t
showed the most tender tetteld for vested rightb *; and he would irk
them to consider how much of the permanency d their institution
might have resulted from that scrupulous regard to vested rights, and I
was not sweeping awax,rislits of that character in the manner proposed
Yi 'ffiTit bill a reroltitlimary ineilivii P (Wei; ECU.) The kite of so-
ciety was based on the surrender of natural rights into the hands of con-1
'dinned authorities, to be vied for the giublicioed, and they had no
right to resume them at their own pleasure against the will of those au-
thorities. He had listened with great attention to the speech of the
Lord Advocate, who dealt almost wholly in generals. He said, how-
ever, that we were at the head of freedom in Europe, even when we
had the star chamber and ship-money. if the statement of the noble
lord, " that at the time or the Tudors and Stuarts, and at the present
day, we were at the head of Europe." what a weight of testimony did he
bring to that constitution of King, Lords, and Commons,
thst it had preserved the country in this preeminent sta-
tion. (Hear. hear, hear.) He knew for a time it was laid smack
smooth, and a republic established in its place, but such was its power
that it rose again in all its former proportions, and strength and beauty.
It had since undergone another revolution without a single pillar of
the edifice being removed, yet this was she Constitution which the insa-
nity of his Majesty's Ministers was about to destroy. One of the first
things that made an impression on his mind waste passage in a speech
of Mr. Wyndham, in which he said the reformers had not proved the
evil, nor stated their remedy. He had examined the speeches of the
reformers, and found them all' deficient on those points. It was ad-
mitted there were rotten boroughs, but it was not proved that they
were an evil. The learned member for Caine had said that he would
ahew a stranger the real grievance of England, by chewing him all the
palaces north of Oxford-street, and telling him all the inhabitants of
those palaces:did not send members to parliament. He believed if the
young Anacbarisis were to turn round on the learned gentleman, and ask
him where was the grievance, the learned gentleman would be puzzled
for a reply. The parish of 3lary-le-bone, by the way, had probably
more members of parliament and more electors in it than any other pa.
rish in England. It was contemptible nonsense to call their not send-
ing members to parliament fur Alary-le-bone a grievance. The
alleged grievances were unrepresented west districts and towns,
and rotten boroughs. (Hear, hear.) It was said the rotten boroughs
could not be defended by reason. We lived in an age when nothing
could stand that could not be defended by reason. and therefore rotten
boroughs must be got rid of. He thought he could give a reason
for their continuance. They were part of a whole which operated well,
and no human foresight could tell what would be the effect on that
whole if the part were taken away. Suppose she structure of the human
eye was only now discovered, and the discovery was made in a living
subject; and one of the new light doctors seeing tne inverted pie-
tore on the retina, said it was an anomaly to see the picture topsy-turvy,
and out it must come. (Laughter.) He was prepared to defend the
rotten boroughs as a main cause of the extraordinary expansive power
of the Constitution, by which it adapted itself to all changes in the
circumstances of the mounds, affording the means of every class and in-
ters* finding representatives in that house. The rotten boroughs were
of two kinds—those independent of all controul, and those called nomi-
nation boroughs. It was said they brought bad and unworthy members
into that house—he did not believe it. He came first into Parliament
for a borough without controul, which allowed hint to give, on all occa-
sions, an unbiassed vote. The nomination boroughs were represented
by honourable men, who agreed with the patron in political opinion.—
The next grievance was the wand of representation in the large towns,
and that he would confess to be a real grievance, which ought to be re.
medied. Another existing evil was bribery, for which the Bill did not
offer a shadow of a remedy. Bacon said statesmen should reform like
time, that was the most gradual reformer ; but the present Bill was
rash and violent. Bacon also said refotm should be made because it was
necessary, and not from desire or demand for change. The contrary was
the case in the present bill. The ministers found a cry for reform, and set
their heads together to form a plan to answer it. The bill would give
a great representation to the north by taking it away from the south,
which he considered an experiment of great danger. The great argu-
ment for the bill was an appeal to the fears of the house. They were
told that the people were determined not to brook its rejection ; an ar-
gument which he knew bad too much weight with many. He thought
the conduct of the Secretary at War and the member for Milbourne
Port ought to be an example to such persons they ought to emulate
such noble conduct. His first answer to the argument of fear was,
that he did not believe there would be any conflict, and while the con.
etitution was preserved he did not fear the suit; but be the conse-
quence what it might be would fall in a just cause rather than submit
to a base fear. He believed that three honest men who bad the fear
of Gorr, and not the fear of the prate, before their eyes, and would do
their duty by bringing the offences of that press before the house—
would restore the house to the character it ought to have in
try ; but they suffered that press to utter its calumnies againstthe coon•
them
from day to day, and were cowards before it. lie thanked his GOD...
who had given him the opportunity of delivering his sentiments fear-
lessly and undismayed, and he felt grateful to the house for the honour
they had done him.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said be experienced some difficulty in en-
tering on the question, as so many hon. members had got up professing
to intrude upon the house for only a short time, but they had not ob.
served their pinnies. He would detain the house only a few minutes,
for it was now scarcely possible to advance a topic on the measure
that was worthy daunting the attention of the house. He, besides,
had some difficulty in approaching the measure immediately after the
honourable member who had just sat down—(hear, hear, hear,)—
aedsithe opportunity that he had enjoyed, his late father having so
long held a pre-eminent situation in the affairs of this country,
anti that the talents of the hon. member who had just sat down had at
an early age been rewarded by the country. (Hear, hear, at intervals
by single voices.) He (Mr. Harvey) could understand the meaning
of those cries of " hear," from bon. gentlemen whose situations were
consistent with the renour of the remarks. It was the abusing of the
public trust in that way that had caused the discontent of the people,
led that had called for this measure, and the people had not • fair
Wild at the bar of that house. (Hear.) Had hon. members been
placed in the same situation as the public peas, that some hon. mem-
bers had indulged in vilifying—the libels that they had delivered on
the people, would have ailed forth the vigilant attention of the official
authorities. Hs was astonished that the hon. member, who had just
at down, Mho, with all the solemnity of manner and sanctity of re-
ligiou that he professed, should have indulged 'in such denunciations
of the measure, but he (Mr. Harvey) would meet him, and such mem-
bers on their own ground; those who had contended that the mea.
sure was a revolutionary measure. He would admit that it was a
revolutionary measure—that it was • glorious revolution. (Hear, hear,
from the Opposition.) But what did that revolution mean—it was a
returning of the Constitution to its original institutions r and the time
was now come that that revolution could not long be resisted. The
speech of the hon. member who had just sat down had been given as a
proclamation to resist the messure--he had said, that he would go forth
with the banner and enlist all the representatives for the rotten boroughs,
and they were so many of them, that lie had no fear of the issue of the
conflict. (A laugh.) This was tile very evil of the system. The Opposition
had all contended that it was ottiliwough bribery and corruption nut
men of genital could enter this 9e; but if, the effects of this bill
would exclude every member who held his seat from a rotten borough,
or by the nomination of a patton, he (Mr. Harvey) was very well con.
vinced that the business of that House would not be marred in any
way, nor would the prosperity of the country suffer injury. He could
easily understand that some honourable members trembled for their
situations by the proposed measure—it was to wipe away 168 members,
but it was to give the franchise to 56 other towns. He would reserve
his power melamine the detail of the measure till a future opportunity;
bur he would now merely remark, for the consolation of the bonnigh-
mongers, many of whom he knew only wished a mover and a seconder
at an election, that out of these fifty-six towns there were forty-Reim
that would not have more than 280 voters qualified by being rated at
101. per annum. The Honourable Member defended himself ijminst
some attacks that had been made upon him, and denied 'that he had
ever professed republican notions, for he had always spoken egainst
vote by ballot and universal suffrage, as being subversive of monarchy,
and which must inevitably lead to republicanism. He denied that the
measure would overthrow the Constitution, but that, on the con-
trary, it would tend to cement the different mates, and make the
people have confidence in their representatives. (Hear.) After no-
ticing several of the objections that had been started by the Opposition,
which he designated as libels, he said that he considered that one main'
obstacle to the bill was, that it had embraced no promise for compensa-
tion ; and he had no doubt but that if ministers had placed a box at the
Treasury for the reception of anonymous letters, that they might easily
have obtained possession of many of these boroughs tor hand-
some sums, and then a great portion of this vulgar prejudice that per-
vaded the Opposition would have been exploded. (Hear, hear.) He was
no enemy to compensation; (Hear) but before be would give those
members compensation, he would ask them what benefits they had de-
rived from their boroughs, if they had not brothers or eons who had been
made Masten in Chancery and Conker Barons, and had other situa-
dons given them, solely because that they, the borough holders, had
seats in that house. (Cries of No, no.) Many had been named to pea.
1 Floes and offices because they had found their way into that house by
1 means Of the boroughs. What other reason could be given ? Let them
be cosepeneation, he said, and it would be in favour of the country.—
There was but one fading throughout the country with to the
proposed measure. His constituents. some of whom wor':lggebt: among
1, the disfranchised, had commanleated to him their cordial concurrence.

He was confident that if the measure should be lost. and an appeal
made to the people, they would answer that appeal with a unanimous
voice. If they did not, if they could vote ter an anti-reformer, they
Arlin
zd would deserve the evils that had so lift lip dfigek He did
not agree in all the details of the plilli ilit. re gene-
rally he was most ul .to Govprnmetk.
._ . by a revolu-
Chleh.effected through attend ittenta, NOV lie spirit of the
thici)ltution. (Hear.) ~ _
lIP , GOULBURN rVilled thi atiikk mateOn
,his honourable
taiivitfatuse he was a beeffirgh lipapritrud i ' I 1161der of a sinecure
Olken If there was alnY ant in Ilialth to o esaileilitain upon
r lit Wrier, assuredly it was in that %If b ' honourable Mend. (Hear,
beilt The office should_ be
he
hint a source of exultation es the re.
ward)of a grateful country for the mervlceset a father, who had fallen,
slit enelephorieally Spatter, bet in sad teldlty, a victim to his patri-
otic efferts in the Very threshold of that Wee. He remembered well
the feeffng which pervaded the house on that melancholy occasion, that
ft should mark its sense of the services, and above all of the disinterest.
edness of the lamented statesman, cut off without baying provided for
ally 'of Wei fiddly. Mid It 'MAWR Ai Ara *MA ?Aid At 6:killegnence
bete bestowed, that the, son was to be scouted as 4 pensioner, and one
incompetent to partake in the present debate. (Bear.) He had said
thus much in consideration of the affection which had existed between
him and the father of his honourable Mend. Before entering on the
debate, he should make two preliminary observations not directly con.
netted with the subject. He proceeded to refute a statement of the
Attorney-General on a former evening, that the transfer of
stock duties was legal, and a charge made by the Secretary
at War against the former administration, of being attached to
patronage. To come to the question of reform—he did not deny
the right of Parliament to interfere with the elective franchise --
He considered parliament omnipotent, but he denied the expediency of
the proposed interference. The country, it was admitted on all eider,
had prospered for centuries. The hon. member for Waterford bad said
that it had thriven, in ;spite of its institutions. He could not agree in
the monstrous proposition: * well might it 1:e said that the earth was
fertile, in spite of the sun and the seasons. A e said it had been asked,
but it had not been answered, how, the goiernment of the country was
to be carried on, after these boroughs were cut off—boroughs that lied
afforded the opportunity to the most eloquent and talented men to get
into parliament ? The peculiarities of the constitution had grown ep
with the wants of the people, and he might appal to all by-gone admi-
nistrations to the fact, that they could not have pros whiten the
aids of the boroughs to bring in numbers to carry on the crown's af-
fairs. (Hear, bear.) In answer, he had been told by some that no.
thing would be so easy is to make such an arrangement, as would
secure seats for the ministers. That might be a pant of the ulterior
plans ; if it were so, the fact ought to be stated—if it were not, he
thought some provision ought to be made for the possible exclusion of
the ministers. In the re-construction of the house, such • case ought
to be provided for. If there were to be particular benches for official
men, the times would be easy enough for Chancellors of the Bx-
chequer and First Lords of the Admiralty, because then there would
be none on the opposition benches intimately acquainted with,the
mystery of Treasury figures, and cspieble of exposing the fallacies
of estimates. Till he saw how seats for such pawns were to be
provided he should consider the plan fare-constructing the house den.
gerously incomplete. The diminishing of expense at elections would
be desirable—but he denied that this plan would effect that object ' • on
the musty, he thought the corruption would be extended in a ten-fold
degree. It was in boroughs, or places that were to have the franchises
reduced or created, that the greatest corruption would be likely to take
place. As to the preserving of the life intetests of now existing toles,
how was that to be done ? Were they to be registered ? But he
would not go into the details of the bill now, it not being before them.
--(Hear.) The Lord;Advocate bad applauded the bill because it
gave the right of voting to property and permanent rude!), and yet that
learned lord had spoken powerfully on the increased intelligence of the
age, eulogising as an instants eh, the evidence given on machinery by
two starving weavers of Ellas#o, and yet be consented to a bill that
disfranchised such persons. He, however, could obi think that this
bill would pass; he believed that there was intelligence enough In the
country to detect the mischief of the bill, and finnttessenough to reject
it. It was the fault of little minds to condemn all on account of trivial
defects; and thus they overlooked all the great merits of that Constitu.
don under which this country -had achieved so much power and glory,
and enjoyed so much happiness. He should oppose the whole of this
measure.

Mr. LENNA RD said, as far m he had been able tocomtult bit con.
stituents, they expressed unqualified apptobstion of this measure. It
would call for some sacrifices from them, but they were reedy to make
them, and cheerfully, because they deemed the measure calculated to
benefit the country. He approved of it, and he was quite sure that
this Reform, by which the Constitution would be cleared of many defects,
and rescued from the obloquy with which it was now surrounded, would
rally round it the intelligence and loyalty of the country. It had been
said, that the cause of Reform wee not very strong in Essex ; but could
it be forgotten that the second member for the county had succeeded
under the banner of " Tyrrell and Rehm." As to the measure being
revolutionary, the assertion had been peeved by no argument; it was
Jo fact a measure to restore, not to destroy. As to the large towns now
proposed to have the franchise extended to them, could any one doubt
that, had they existed in former times, that privilege would have:
been granted to/them. (Hear, hear.) He approved of the principle
of the bill ; when it was innodeced, be should perhaps take the
liberty of proposing some amendments, especially sa regarded lease.
holders. The mason he considered would center a great boon on
the country.
Sir C. DOUGLAS observed, that thoegh there might be somiblots:l
in the representation of Scotland, yet let it be remembered that the,
country had prospered under it ; and yet that which had worked so well'
they were now about to dentoy.
Mr. Alderman M'AITH MAN denied that there was any truth in the
assertion, that because Reform had heretofore not been continually de-
manded, that ever the country had been indifferent about it. The cause
might apparently have slept, but anxiety had not been entirely extin-
guished. He knew the public feeling on the subject well; he mixed
much with the public, and he could declare, that when the cause had
not been agitated, it was in consequence of the manner in which peti-
tions on the subject had been received by that house. The people had
confidence in the present 'militate», and, therefore, they had come for-
ward and called for reform; those ministers had ledged themselves to
thecause of reform, and therefore were they rallying round them to give
them all possible support in their great undertaking. They saw that
there was some use in petitioning—that their prayers were likely to be
listened to by at least some men in that house, and therefore they revived
their Aiken by petitions. One peculiarity in the debates on this sub-
ject was so remarkable that he could not &oat mentioning it, he meant
the open and undisguised manner in which the corruption of that house
had been defended. It surpassed any thing he had ever hard. He would
not attribute any bad motives to those who sat for the boroughs; but
he must remark that they had throughout displayed by far the most
pertinacity in resisting the MIL They had designated the measure in
terms that he would not repeat, but language that was wholly unsup.
ported by proof; with what prepriety after it was peeved that Peers
.returned so many members, and that these Peers Itkewise so lafgely
participated In emoluments derived ham places, pensions, and sine.
cures, he would leave the house to judge, as well as with what fair.
ness such representatives coulJ support the humans of the people. As
to threats being held out, he must declare that he hid never seen a
more universal feeling on sty occasion than now pervaded the public
mind. Such language was a gross libel on the people, and on the
Constitution. It was a ggrtooswr libel on the people to say that they
wished to upset the Constitution; and It was a grosser libel on the
Constitution to say, that free representation was inconsistent with the
safety of the institutions. (Hear. hear.) What was to be thought of
the declarations of these who called our Constitution the most beau.
tiful Constitution in the world et declared that it could not exist
without that corruption which had now been so openly proclaimed and
defended ? Had he had an opportunity of addressing the house earlier
in the debate, he would have troubled them at greater length with his
Leeman for approving of this bill ; but after so much had been said, he
would content himself with stating, that he most eiteerftilly Obeyed the
instructions which he had teceived from his constituents to support this
bill. He would only add,—and he did not:mention it in the way of
threat—that if the bill did not pass, the conseqninees Mould be of the
most fearful character. (Hear.)
Mr. GORDON, on behalf of the borough which be represented, (Sea.
fold) denied that this bill was renovation—it was revolution.
An Hon. MEM BEE observed, that when it was first proposed to the
house be considered it of too sweeping a kind; having since, however
regarded its details with more attention, he was of opinion that it was
quite conformable to the spirit of the Constitution of Ragland : he
therefore could not withhold front it his hill and complete approbation ;
and he meted that his Majesty's Ministers "mild pursue a firm and
even course until they had achieved the consummation of the measure.
(Hear, hear.) Considering the exhausted state of the House he should
not trespass longer on Its time than to express en ardent hope that the
great measure before the House would be canted to a triumphant con.
clusion.—(Hear.)
Mr. STEWART, in a few words, was understood to oppose the
measure.

Mr.BAYNTUN would give the measure introduced by his Ma-
jesty's Ministers the most cordial concurrence—he considered it as
neither revolutionary nor dangerous—all the danger he conceived was
on the other side ; but if danger did exit* in the country, it became
Ministers to look it fully in the face—a mighty spirit had been awaken.
ed by recent events, and. F.ngland had stood Alin amidst the confu-
rico and change of surrounding States and be was convinced that the
present measure would tend in a great degree to render her tranquillity
more permanent.
Mr. T. P. COURTENA-Y said he would n6t take up the tithe Of
the house with any defence-of the present queen of representation t
but although he had listened with attention to the speedier of the noble
'stover of the bill, and the Lord Advocate, u 'teell is other stitspiseters
of the measure, he was still unsatisfied trith the grounds upon 'Aids
it was established If such a measure as that doaternplated the
noble lewd, were carried into * law, it would be inspoisible foe King
and Lords to stand against a House of ammo's chosbn under it.—
With respect to patdcular eases, the bill itself would nuke no *differ-
ence as regarded the borough which he had the honour to represent:—

Tortiess) except in two particulars,--expettee of Election, anddirect nomination. lie sincerely trusted that the bill would never to
to a committee.
lewd STANLEY skid he should support the measure. Fmm infor.
nation which ire had ttceifeti the whole community from north to south
had not only given the Mature consent, but approbation. He could
ten the bon. genfleman opposite, and be did not so in the manner of a
threat, that what they had said on the present momentous question...
would be remembered by their constituents; it would be said of 'ltem.
here are those who represent the people, and yet who are disosned by
the people. Foe his Own part he had been returned four mites
to Parliament, mid three out of four times, his election had been con.
tested, a ptoof that he had nothing to do with the borough system. now
so justly condemned. The noble lord Concluded by giving the inmate
his support.

Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said, time ought to be given for thr coo.
sideration of that portion of the measure that applied to Scotland befury
it could be passed through that House. 'The Hon. Member fm Water.
fordjsaid last night, in the style or mob oratory for which he wa, „
celebrated, that Scotch Members took their seats in that house for the
purpose of making money. He would ask that Gentleman. if ii,•
were in his place, how he presumed to talk in that manner of Scotch
Genttentin ? and he would tell him, that there was no Seotcb Gen.
tleman in that House that would put himself on a level with that
Gentleman in any thing which a Gentleman could deem a matter of
pride.—(Order, order.)

_ .
Mr. THOMAS DUNCO3IBE, (Memberfor Hereford) said that the
longer the debate *as protracted the more it became necessary for
those members oho bad constituents to express their opinions. Hi.
them, two-thirds of the time of the house, during the debate, had been
own *td by honourable members who had no constituents. (Hear, and
laughter.) Those honourable members for rotten boroughs,—(laugh.
ter,)—had said again and again that the people of England were not
desirous of Reform, but the people of England had given ample COh.
tradiction to this asektkin in their peak= to the house; and his (Mr.
Duncombe's)constitueuts had authorised him to thank his Majesty's
Ministers for the noble and unflinching Mariner in which they
had redeemed their pledges, and *petted to the people the pros.
pat of a tree representation. (loud cheering.) They hailed
the propoied indium with delight, for they saw In it the dertrue.
don of that arketieratkel influence which had so long disgraced
the house and -desnoyed the rights of the people. In the presence oar
his nominees, the honourable member who opened the debate, with as
much seal &elicits reason, had said that he (Mr. buncombe) was not a
good authority. He considered that he could not give a better reason
for not oftener addressing the home t and he thoughttitut the honour.
able gentleman (Sr. Pamela) could do nething better than follow hi,
example. (Orem laughter.) The bonotttable and learned member for
Boroughbridge had called on mini.ten to stand up in their places and
defend their measure if they could. But it appeared to him that they
had well defended it • so well, that the henottrable and learned gentle.
man must now be convinced that his challenge to the ministers might
better have been omitted. (Hear, hear, bear, and loud laughter.) Vet
be would imitate the indiscretion of the learned member for Borough-
bridge, whom, as the honourable member for Colchester had aptly said,
he hoped to see in his place as " the learned member fur Smithfield,"
(great laughter), and ask that learned gentleman--and give him his
own time too—to reply to the speech of his right honoursbk
friend the secretary for Ireland (cheers, and loud laughter); or,
if that was too much for him, he would ask him or any of the gentle-
men opposite, to answer the speech of the Lord Advocate if they dare
(great cheering) Ithitating the Indiscretion of the learned and expir-
ing member for Beroughbridge (laughter), he would call upon him to
answer that speech • and to do so, he would give him to the pining oi.
the proposed bill (hear, hear, from Sir C. Wetherell); " and pan" (said
Mr. 1)4" it will' (hear, hear, from both sides of the house); and
up to the last moment he would give the learned gentleman to answer
the admirable, eloquent, and convincing speech of the Lord Advocate.
He feared the answer would be as great a failure of as the reply o: tli!
ex-Secretary of the Admiralty the other evening (beer, hear). He did
not see the tight hon. ex-semetiry then in his place ; but he would take
the liberty of saying, that his reply was, to the speech which he at.
tempted to answer, as the trash of a certain Sunday Newspaper to the
eloquence of the Edinburgh aide (cheers from both sides.) Never
had there been a bill proposed to that house under circumstances
more auspicioue, or with a reception more promising. For, by whom
was it proposed ? His Majesty's Government, with the &sue-
des of the Crown (loud and continued cheering). Who supported it?
The whole nation (cheers) ; and who were its opponents ? None but
the rotten boroughs (continued cheering.) For that oppoSition the
people and the Ministry must balk been prepared, (hear, hear!)
The opposition of the Hon. Members fie 'Wareham and forCellington,
-who called the measure a revolution, was • compliment to the Bill,
(cheers.) But did those gentlemen suppose that the country would
support them, even if Ministers were weak enough to retrace their
steps and bow to their decision ? (cheers.) The country had seen
the Ministers attack and take by seem the outwear,' of exemption, and
boldly summon the citadel to a surrender, and was it now to be sup-
posed that they *sold desert them ? " No, (said Mr. D.) yOu ho.
rough proprietors, I say unto you, if you do elk open your rites to
those Ministers of the Ring and to his people, your obstinacy may for
a little postpone our ;victory, but the weaknies of year bars and the
rottenness of your bolts, are such that you Cannot prevent it.".—
(Laughter and cheetm) They had been told thit them was mdse.
thing like revolution In the menaced dissolution of that beautiful assent.
t nec(Laughter.) If it were treason to differ horn the opinioorof the
member for Boroughbtidge, and from the noble marquis 'the
member for Buckingham, then he (Mr. D.) would plead guilty. He
was so greet a rebel as to recommend to his Majesty's ministers (should
the bill be rejected) to dissolve parliament, and to appeal to the country
for fresh suppott. (Cries of Oh, oh ! Hear, hear ! and much laughter.)
And more—he would say at the mote time, that the government would
be justified (should they find the dissolution necessary) in recommend-
ing the crown to suspend the writs for the 60 rotten boroughs. (drat
cheering and laughter on both sides.) Upon such a proceeding the una-
nimous voice of the country would put the stamp of legality. In adopt.
ing this, the ministers would secure the thanks and gratitude of the
country to themselves, and to their royal master. He knew that
there was a party in that house composed of some persons who had
been, and of some who fain would be, minister—(hear)—who hoped,
that by turning out the present Administration they should be enabled
to succeed to their place.—( Hear, bear, hear ! from the opposition.)
He asked, did they think that them ever would come a time when their
anti-reform or sham.rePorm projects would be tolerated by the country ?
—(Cheers.) Let not those gentleman lay the flattering unction to their
tory souls.—(Shouts of laughter.) Let them not deceive themselves
that the country would ever again consent to be governed their old
principles of patronage and corruption. As had truly been mid by the
noble lord (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), the time foe that govern-
ment had gone by. " Endeavour to testate it, Tory, if you earro—and
the country will set your borough legislation at defiance ; so that nothing
but eonfusioo and anarchy will ensue." He hoped, however, that the
Legislature, by adopting in time the efildent, safe, and tonstitu.
donel reform proposed by the government would avert such a crkis..l.
(Cheers.)
Mr. TENNANTsaid Reform had become amatory, as the bahmee
in the three estates of the Constitution had become degraded, it was
necessary that it should be restored. He was confident the voice of the
whole people would be heard in support of the measure, and in grati-
tude to Ministers for having proposed a reform's* complete for the pro.
cation of their liberties.

Lord JOHN RUSSELL said the qulttionitathein debited loOpir
than probably ever before took place, and it was now time he should
address the House, and set it right on some points on which he had
been mistaken. He felt surprised that on a quadrat of sea Sind im-
portance to the constitution, the honourable members Who spokeagainst
it should confine themselves to gibes and taunts against those by whom
it was brought forward and supported. They had not offered any sr..
guments of weight against the measure, but had made it a stibject of
accusation against his Mends and himself, that they had consulted par-
tial interests in the measure which they had proposed. (Cries
of hear, hear.) He did not expect that day alter day academes
would come doirir to accuse him Of being so uttiniy hese, so coo.
temptibly mean, as in a measure which was to affect the future contd.
tution of that House—the future legislation of the ematry—that he
should consider any private interest of any Member of the Cibinet, or
of any relation of his own ; and lesat of all did he expect such an accu-
sation from the Member for Calliogton, with whom he had so long been
on terms of friendship. In deterntiniwg the bermtghs on which the
measure was to operate, the rule taken was the population returns of
1821. If they had taken such a return of population is should have
included Tavistock. they would have disfranchised 200 members....
(Hear, hear.) It Was not thought right to proceed to that extent
in disfranchisemeat, and wherever they drew the Nee Wine objectieu
would be made. (Hear, hear.) If they took SOO for Instance, Highals
Ferrari was but a little above it. and then It would be mid that
number was taken to save the seat of the son of eke Prime Minister.-.-
If they took 1,000 as the number, there. *mild be 'Mom for still
greater objeedone. Out of the borOughs which remained. when 4,000
was taken as the scale of popelation, three were objected to as Wind
been retained for a partial cause; but them were twenty-two others is
which no Member at his side of the home had any intereel, but
in several of which those by whom the bill was opposed had cot,
tamable interest.—(Hear, bear.) He aright mention Ciro.
mum, in which it pas known a Nobleman by wheat
the Bill was opposed, had considerable interest.—(Hear, beer.)
The subject of the scale by which the selection should be made wee
carefully condietad, and the poptdittlin return was thought the
moat cornet thittiment on which to act. He Would ask, in reply Cu
whet bad been said, would it be right to fiend an act of that hours

„r lettere of teturning ()SEMI ? (Hear, hear.) An honourable gee-
il:man opposite compared Tan:worth with Tavistock in that way,
hat such returns had been found not to be correct. The honour.
.4,1 e gentleman had also compared the 101. houses in Tamworth and
(sine ; but he had not made the same comparison between Tamworth
sad Tayistock. because Tamworth had but 130, and TavistOck had NO.
It was thought, after due consideration, to be the best way of proceed-
‘,,c not to make any private inquiries, but to act on the population vs.
turns,
' which were a parliamentary document, and that had (teen strictly
adicrel to. He thought the house would see, whatever it might think '1
of the principle being right or wrong, that it was the desire of Govern.
nurse to plate the plan on • firm hasls. (Hear.) They did not give
'my retool to une borough mare than aoothet. They had been to by
the hon. member for Aldborough, that they did not go by population,
ti, liorotigh4 of 4,000 or 5,000 wer: to return more mashers d
some I trge rowns. This was a fact with which they were well isa.
,tainted. it was never intended to give members according to the
;mount of population, if they did how many must be given to Wear.
mintier, which contained a population of 160.000. Yet it wise not in.
tended to gee to Westminster more representatives than St. Alb wad
others. If honourable members thoought this an anomaly, Ist
who opposed it come forward and propose another. (Hear, bear.)
If they are greater reformers than us, Ist them come boldly leeward.
'Hoar, herr.) But let them not oppose all reform. (Hear.) The
k •
right tm. member for Tamworth has said that he (Lord J. Russell)
litd given no ingenious reasons for his motion. His reasons were, that
it was a cure for existing evils. (Hear.) The plan spoke for itself,
it required no ingenious seasons, and that was evident by the reap.
titan it had met with in the country. (Hest, hear.) It had been
received in the North, South, East, and West, and in Scotland,
with the greatest approbation ; and no ingenious reasons were called
for. (Hear, hear.) All classes were satisfied with the efficiency
of the plan, and they saw, that step by step all their wishes
and desires would be achieved. (Hear, hear.) The right hon. member
for Tamworth had also asked how he could reconcile his (Lord J. Rus-
sell's) speech of 1819 with the measure now brought forward. As re-
gstded himself personally, it was of no consequence whether he had
changed his opinion or not : but he must say that, on again looking at
that speech, be thought part of it van right, and part wrong. (Hear.)
From the year 1819 to the year 1822 he investigated into the state of
the country, and he perceived that great progress was made in literature
and Intelligente: he found that the middling classes had risen to a
state of importance greater than in any former age, or any other coun-
try. (Hear.) He found that the constitution of that how* was
hut what it ought to be--(hear); its basis was becoming narrower
and narrower, whilst the intelligence of the country was becoming
broader and bleeder. (Hear.) The country had a just right to be dn.
satisfied with the state of the represantation, wises they Mend that these
who sat for boroughs decided against all retrenchment in the proportion
of 3 to 1, whilst those for the counties always divided in favour of it.—
Would it then be said that no change was required. (Hear.) Per.
haps it might be thought assuming of egotism, but he could not ea
frain from alluding to part of his speech in 1822. He theta said that
he was for a general Reform, and not for single disfranchisement'. He
then proposed to cut off 100 31e, and give them to large towns.
rubers
Tavistoc and Caine certainly were not included in these boroughs,
and'until the measure was agreed to, it would only be fair that they
should have the influence of these boroughs. (Hear.) It had been
asked whether a democratic assembly could exist with a constitution
of King, Lards and Commons? (Hear, hear.) It was a great
mistake of the plan to call it democratic The plan proposed could not
be taken in any such sense. If York sent four members now that were
not democratic, why should they rum so; and if Manchester. Leeds
and Birmingham, were to send members, it did not follow that they
were to send democrats any more than that Bristol and Liverpool
should: (hear, hear.) In fact, he was at a loss to know where such a
number of democrats were to be found : (hear.) Bat it would be
...collected that the same cry was raised when the Test and Corpo-
ration Acts were ratled. When the Catholic Relief Bill was
puled, it was said admit Roman Catholics into Parliament, and there
is an end to our glorious Constitution : (hear and a laugh.) In fact
:he same fears for the Constitution were sent forth, when it was only
talked about changing the game laws. Change the game laws, and,
forsooth, say some honourable members, you endanger our glorious
Constitution :hear (ardbear and laughter.) The late Secretary at War
(Sir Henry Hinge), raised two objections to the measure; the first
was, that it would take the crown ceche King's head • and the second,
that It would take too many members from Durham (a laugh.) With
respect to the first, he would say that they might safe leave his Ma.
jesty to the protection of his people. They would on alt occasions rally
round the throne. It was not supported on the rotten timber of dm
boroughs. (Hear, hear.) The Monarchy would be more smote, toys
alty would not be decreased, but increased. They looked and judged of '
the constitution in the proper way. (Hear.) It was said, take away
the boroughs, and no Government could be carried on. No doubt
boroughs had been useful and convenient for ministers, sad sated the
trouble of constituents. (Hear.) But it should be recollected that Pile
sat for the University of Cambridge, Fox for Westminster, Lois-
dewy for the county of Down, and Canning for Liverpool, and sem
of them on any one occasion run the least danger of not being re-elected.
(Hear, hear.) It must be borne in mind, wham great Wades woe
to be obtained, some injury must be sustained. (Hear.) The injury
hear, was notl one likely
grat dto breakup th
eal !tad been ildCona it
tutioen.ver,( In
this ease,
of
intimidation. He did not know that the least threat of intimidation
had been held out by Government • but the Hotta woad re.
member the words of Lord Chatham. (Hear.) He stated, ” that
if the House did not reform itself dons within, it would be re.
formed from without with a vengeance." These were the words of
Lord Chatham. The present supporters of the measure had net used
any such language. The name of Burke had often been used duties
the discussions; be would read some extracts from his speeches. T 66
noble lord here read some of Mr. Burke's speeches ; in which that great
Amman said, that the House of Commons in Parliament assembled
ought to be the same as the Commons at large—war with the world, but
peace with their constituents. The noble lord continued. The people
looked for a remedy, and they had a right to expect one. They
saw clearly that that house which voted away their money, onitht i
to he the guardian of their rights. They did not care about the
abolition of this office or that, but they wanted a confidence in their
representatives—a confidence sufficient to be convinced, that when an
office became useless it would be abolished ; and when a law of op-
pression was proposed that it would not be passed. (Hear, hear.)
There; rat only one topic more to which it was necessary to allude.
There had been for several years past a want of confidence in public
n.en. Different sects and unions had been established for the pur-
pate of making out their own remedies; there was no confidence in
the legislature. (Hear.) Such a state of things could not much longer
continue: it must lead to a separation, if not remedied, between the
great mass of intelligence and the constituted authorities of the coon.
try. (Hear.) The present Government might have gone on for a
time, hut they could not have gone on long without the confidence
of the nation. (Hear.) If then the present Government, who ad-
mitted the necessity of a change, could not have gone on, would ft
hare been possible for these who denied that any change was neces-
sary to have gone on. If his Majesty's ministers had not brought
forward this measure, they would have been taunted, and that justly,
with having forfeited their pledges, and betrayed the people. (Hear.)
They were bound to bring forward a measure which might be what wus
oiled revolutionary, because he had seen in many instances, where
Gentlemen had come down to the house and declared that they would
make a stand against a particular measure, and had said, this is the
Constitution, and no farther would they go; and they would say, that
if the clamour does not subside by to-morrow, we most do something ;
and thus, by the folly of procrastination, they bare been canmained to
grant their influence to the very measure to which they had previously
professed their repugnance on deliberation ; but then when the measure
was wrung from them it was not received by the people with gratitude,
but was looked upon with eontempt. (Hear.) He had beet convinaA
from experience, that the only sate and satisfactory mode was to do the
act at the proper time, and not to leave it to the colouring of compel- 1
'ion by chance of circumstances. (The noble Lord sat down amidst loudl
and long-continued cheering.)
The SPEAKER then put the question, " That leave be given to
bring in a Bill to amend the representation of the people in England
and Wales."

The motion was agreed to.
The ti Ayes" were shouted in louder voices than we ever beff
heard in the House of Commons; while the " Nos" were only three in
; one very loud, but the other two very dispirited and low.
Lord J. RUSSELL then moved for leave to bring in a bill to
amend the fermentation cf the people in Scotland.
sir G. CI.RRE protested against such a motion at so late an boor
of the night. (Cries of " Oh, oh.") No part of this measure had been
explained to the house. (Hear, hear," and a laugh )
fhe LORD.ADVOCATE thought, that the noble lord sufficiently
opened the general outline of the treasure in his introductory speech
Hoverer, if the house thought differently, he should be able to supply
ar,y omissions which the noble lord might be supposed to have made.
!ri a very few sentences. While the borough representation in England
was diminished, that in Scotland was increased by the proposed plan.
This was an apparent diftbrenee in the plans for the two countries:
but the difference existed only in appearance. Tne plans were mind-
', nts, and the principles of them were identically the same. In
lcotland there wete SO county members, and 15 borough members.
It was proposed that the county members should be reduced by
'wo. It was proposed that scotland, instead of returning forty-five
""tubers, should in future return fifty, and that of these,
'‘er•ty7two should be returned from boroughs. The mode of get.
4 fair representation for Scotland was to unite the small counties
alth the large. The population of Peebles and Selkirk did not exceed
17,000 souls, and it wan justifiable to unite such counties, in older
remake up an aggregatepopulation fir the purposes of representation,
c!n:ch ought be in some proportion tothe general representativesystem.
137 the new plan all who were qualified would have a vote, and none
could have had more under the old system. The wealth of, Scotland
`sr.sistett in commercial towns, of recent growth, and the view of Go.
,efnment was to divide the allocations. Accosting to the •union. the
"I.XY of Edinburgh had the privilege of returning ear osemberow-
lingoes was now the third city in the empire, wierrortSMl the is-
itrests of half a million of men, and thrtefore two members were at.

trihuted to it; Paisley was a rival to Glasgow, with 50,000 souls,
and therefore one member was given to it. On the same prin.
ciple, Aberdeen, Greenock, and Leith were to have one member
each. The new system of Scotland was made to assimilate to what had
always been considered tile moat perfect part of the English system—
the county representation. The quillific.stion In Scotland was to be 10'.
s-year foe a voter, and 5001. a-year for a seat in the house for • county
member. Arrangements had been made to take the rotes In convenient
plates, so that no more than two days might be consumed in the elec-
tion ; and a provision had been introduced Into the measure, to disallow
votes to be taken in county elections for the same property as gave the
right of voting In burghs. He was aware that at that time of the right
he mast be brief In his observations ; but he hoped his explanation
would be sufficient to show that no reasonable objection could be offered
to the motion of the noble lord to bring in a bill to amend the represen-
tation of Scotland. _

Sir W. RA It did not think the learned lord's explanation perfectly
satisfactory. He mold see no good reason why, when additional mem-
bers were given to the English counties, not only no additional members
were given to the Scotch counties, but two of the county members were
taken away and given to the burghs. Since government had adopted
the rule of joining counties together, he was surprised that it bad not
been regularly followed out ; and that Kinross had not been added to
Fire, and Clackmannan to Stirling. What was the reason, he should
like to know, that the county of Caithness, which was formerly joined
with the county of Bute, was now, for the first time, to have the right
of sending one member to Parliament? Why was it not added to the
countylof Sutherland ? The hon. gentn. opposite had declared that one of
their objects in bringing forward the present measure of reform was to get
rid of the nomination by peers of members of that house. He was not
one who would wish to see the influence of peers destroyed, which de-
pended on their large property and the benefits which they conferred on
theit inferiors. But if Caithness had been added to Sutherland, the
influence which a noble family exercised in the return of the member
for the latter county, would have been neutralised ; and the honourable
gentleman opposite ought, therefore, to have joined those two counties,
io order to be consistent with their own professions. He objected en-
tirely to the bill, because it went to change the whole system of repre-
sentation in Scotland. That system had, as yet, worked well ; and he
believed there was not an instance of any person being a representative
of a Scotch County, who had not a real interest in the land. (Hear.)
—lf any change were thought necessary to be made in the
elective franchise, the right of voting should have been confined to the
actual proprietors of land, and the mere occupiers of houses ought not
to have been introduced.

The LORD-ADVOCATE stated that it was not the mere occupiers,
but the owners of houses, who had the right of voting.
Sir W. RAE said, tbst the occupiers were almost universally the
owners of houses in Scotland, for that very few were held on leasehold ;
and, therefore, the proposition would have the effect of taking the right
of sending members to parliament out of the hands of the landed in-
term. No complaint could be made against the present sys-
tem on the score of expense, because the representatives of
counties never expended any money except what they paid
out for the purpose of entertaining the elector after the
election. N. explanation had been given by the learned lord
why five boroughs of the eastern part of Fife should be disfran.
chimed, and the right of voting taken from 6,000 persons. He agreed
with the learned Iced that no Scotchman could object to the granting of
representatives to Edinburgh and Glasgow; but he (SirW. Rae) wished
to know why, if Leith was to have a member, the flourishing town of
lemmas' with a population of 20,000, was not to be allowed one. He
supposed that when the learned lard talked of giving a member to Edin.
burgh, that the noble lord meant that city and its suburbs. If that
wore the case, veins to the number of 12.910 would be admitted. What
then would be the boasted advantage, what the value to the shopkeeper
of Edinburgh, of sharing a vote among so large a number of persons ?
He conseived that the proposed altercation would lead to much bribery,
disorder, and perhaps to bloodshed. The learned lord opposite had
some knowledge of the stormy nature of elections in Scotland. If once
Soon:limes were brought together on those ocesektas, it was • rare cir-
cumstance when their meeting did not end in fatal consequences. He
asked Scotch members whether that was not the general rule ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said it was reason-
able that the plan should be explained, and that the observations of the
teamed gentleman (Sir W. Rise) upon it should be heard ; but this
having takes plat*, he eusted there would be no objection to the bill
being now introduced. The plan would go to Scotland, accompanied
by the learned gentleman's objections, and thus the entire scheme would
be understood and canvassed in that country. He hoped that this
would be considered sufficient at present, and that gentlemen (several
having risen to address the house at the close of Sir W. Rae's speech)
would defer their remarks upon the bill till the second reading, when
the discussion could be taken. It would be extremely inconvenient to
go into • debate on the plan at this hour of the night.
Sir C. FORBES begged to ask the noble lord whether he thought it
reasonable that the reform bill affecting this country should be debated
woo days en the motion fee its introduction, and that which applied
to &Wand should be disposed of in the same stage in an hour? He
rthe propriety di the debits on the first reading of the bill
aeddlowened till to-morrow. He might here observe, that the
Advocate's_ speech was any thing rather than satisfactory.
Mr. KENNEDY said his hon. Mend opposite (Sir C. Forbes)
amid wake no gamer benefit on his countrymen than by allowing the
bill to go forth to the public in an accurate shape, with as little delay
as possible. This object would be effected by offering no opposition to
the firm reading.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON thought an adjournment of the discussion
not unreasonable, if any Gentleman connected with Scotland wished to
offer their opinions on the bill, even In the first stage.
Sir C. FORRES roes to snore the adjournment of the debate, but
gave way to
Lord JOHN RUSSELL, who expressed a hope that gentlemen
would consent to take the discussion on the second reading. which might
be fixed for Monday or Tuesday_l
After an observation from Mr. JOHYISTONS,
Sir G. CLERK recommended the hon. basonet to accede to the no-
ble lord's proposition.
Sir G. WAItRENDER wished the discussion to be deferred till
the bill should be printed.
Leave was then given to being in the bill.
IIEPOIP3I 81LL..-11ILLAND.

Lord J. RUSSELL moved that leave be given to bring in a bill to
amend the representation in Ireland.
RUTHVEN said he had no wish to embarrass the Government

by expressing his objections to that part of the measure affecting Ire-
land upon the occasion of the recent debate, but he would now say, that
In order to afford Ireland substantial justice, she should have, instead
of three new members, 32.
Arse a desultory convention, in which 3h. Lltantn, Mv. Wyss,
and Mr. A. Dawson took part, leave was given to bring in the bill,
it being understood that the .Scotch and Irish reform bills would not be
diseased on the same day.
The calico duty repel bill was repotted, and the bru ordered to be
read a third time to-morrow.
Lord DUNCANNON gave notice, that he would on Friday next
move for leave to bring in a bill for opening a new anect between Wa.
terloo.bridgc and Charles-street, Covent-garden.
The ATTORNEY-GENENA I. presented a petition from Not-
tingham, in favour of the plan of reform which had been submitted to
the house by his Majesty's ministers ; and another having a similar
prayer. from the law students of the inns of court.
Adjourned at three o'clock.
801 //RE AT) VIENNA.

Among the company were several Sovereigns and a multitude of
distingulibrd foreigderp. One of the evening's entertainments sonehrt-
ed of the deseriog of a boasay—the revival of a favourite amusement
of the gallant Court of Louis XIV., where it is said to bare been in-
troduced for Mademoiselle de la Valleys.. Each of the Sovereigns sent
to the Princess Bagradon, one or more presents, which, being drawn as
prises by a few fortuntte Gentlemen, were by them presented, in token
of their homage, to some of the lathes elf the company. These hot-
series were much In vogue at the Vienna parties during the Oongress.
At Prison, !Salvation's the Grand Duke Constantine won two porce-
lain vases, which the King of Prussia had ordered from his manufac-
tory at Perlin, and he presented them to his fair hotted,. The Em-
paver Alexander's prise was a box of mosaic work, width be begged the
Princess Maria Eeterhaty to accept. Glint Capo d'huis wen a casket
adorned with steel ornaments, which he gave to Princess Wolkopsky
and 'minus minor prises were drawn, all of width were mutually sa-
tisfactory both to givertand receivers. _

ENTRANCE OF THE TROOPS OF THR GERMANIC CON-
FEDERATION INTO THE DUCHY OF LUXEMBOURG.
We yesterday ntelved Brussels papers of Saturthy, toateying the
following important intelligence. We learn Rem the Courtin. des
Pays Bus, that M. Gentiebien bee resigned his once K Minister of
Justice and President of she Supreme Court of Brussels. The mare
Journal contains a long expostulatory letter addressed to Lord Palmer".
ton, by M. Barthelemy, a Deputy of the *Belgian NattatiarCotignifts
[From the Independent of Bressels,•tif the 4lh ht*tJ]
We are informed that a body of troops of Baden sod Mem. Awl
6,000 strong, forming the contingent named the Tenth of His Diet, has
just entered Luxembourg in the name of the Germanic Diet. The Lux.
embutglvers are resilted,* iwraid, to defend themsdives. "he pnrciple
of won-intervention is auwalitog away on *Bolin ; Int Weigle' im-
minent—let each good citisettripareinmelf fat
The Barbados; Cilobe gives-us a filing picture of that
interesting island. A dramatic corps are promoting civiliea•
don by swetning'througii `Pizarro, and other active stock
pieces. We hope ilte gentlemen and ladies do not paint as
in Europe.
Wages are relapsing; and incendiary fires increasing.
We retooled the latter till we bluihedlor the t °entry. A
renewed list.tif fecest ones "mild fill a-column, and•yet bat
a small'proportien are recorded. 'More*fires occur, trio, in
-towns, then can be