Star.
London, England, 1813-01-27 00:00:00

-
LAST INDIA NOM.

TUf.SIIAY, JANUARY Ea,
Thu General Court met at' eleven o'clock, when
tl,e minutes of the last Court were read, and Sir H.
icous informed them, that they were assembled to
take into farther consideration the momentous subject
in which they were all interested.
Mr. KENNARD SMITR observed chiefly on that ar-
potent of Mr. Hume, which went to charge the
Company with interposing delays in the voyages of
ee private trader. These delays, he asserted, were
72t the fault of the Company but of the private
:ruler t he was well acquainted with the fact, and
inew that the Company's ships were frequently ready
a month before the private merchant prepared his
goods. He insisted, that the supply of his Majesty's
Tory in the East Indies, which had hitherto been ef-
fected without expence to Government, would now
I,e impracticable : and on the point of remuneration,
Le observed, that no possible means could be devised
to furnish a sufficient compensation to the Company,
unless the country were burdened with fresh taxelafor
that purpose.
Mr.TROWER, in an animated speech, insisted on the
political dangers likely to ensue, if the mighty inte-
rests of the Company should be swept away for the
sake of an experiment. That a weak Ministry should
grasp at such a prize as the acquisitions of the Com-
pany was credible enough; but it was incredible, that
the wisdom of Parliament would consent to such a
measure, fraught as it would be with danger to the
Constitution.

Mr. BOSANQUET, after making some observations
on the extent of the Indian empire, and on the con-
quests of the Company, which he said were made
without a shilling expence to the country, proceeded
to Mate, that the trade was as large in the hands of
' the Company, as it would be in the hands of private
traders: he dilated on the danger which would accrue
to the Company, if the India trade was lost : the
loss of the China trade must follow; a loss which
would not merely affect Great Britain, but all civi-
lized Europe. He combated the position maintain•
ed in a certain publication, that one of the Princes
should govern India: in his opinion no British Prince
would be alive to interests so far distant from his
native country. He was satisfied that the country
was in a delusion as to the advantages which were
expected from an extension of the trade, and the do-
cuments of the Company would prove it. He con-
cluded a speech of some length, by observing, that
the efforts and the probable result of them, used by
his Majesty's Ministers, brought to his mind a ludi-
crous string of vershs, which he thought very appli-
cable to the present case. They were these—

Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty bad a great fall;
All the King's horses, and all the King's men,
Could not place Humpty Dumpty on his legs again !

. _ .
(...1 laugh.) _ _
Mr. GRANT conceived, that the present question
involved in it danger of two kinds—political and
commercial. The Hon. Gentleman who had argued
on the other side, had thought that there was no poli-
tical danger to be apprehended • but it had been
clearly proved, by the able and eloquent' Proprietors
who had already spokeii, that the political danger
was the pre-eminently conspicuous feature of the case.
This, however, had been so fully entered into, that
he should confine himself to a commercial investiga-
tion. The Hon. Gentleman had produced a mass
of documents, which made it necessary to go into the
question at length. The Company rested their argu-
ments on two positions—that there can be no greater
increase ofthe exports, nor any increase in thy sale of
the imported goods. The first position was supported
by the experience of ages : the nature, habits, and
prejudices of the Indian people, rendered it impos-
sible to introduce 4niong them any of the products of
foreign countries ; and from the time of the Romans
there had been no instance of the introduction of such
articles among them. In spite of this array of facts
and experience, the Petitioners of the different manu-
facturing towns of Great Britain wish to try the ex-
periment of exporting their goods. The cutlers of
Huddlestone, and the woollen-manufacturers of Wilt-
shire and Yorkshire, talk of the boundless advantages
to be expected from a free trade with the immense re-
gions of Hindostan ; and the Petitioners of Sirefficld
were perfectly enthusiastic at the view of the pecu-
liarly favourable prospects which an open trade
would present to them. (if laugh.)—He must say,
that the speech of the Hon. Gentleman had strongly
a tendency to. fortify these delusions. The Hon.
Gentleman had treated the subject as if therehad
been an annual progressive rise of exports since the
Act of 1793: the records of the Company, which.
were the most authentic documents, disproved this
argument ; and it should be observed, that till 1802,
the importations were from Bengal only ; afterwards
from all India.—ln 1795, the private trade, together
with that of the Captains ail d Commanders,amou'nted
to 31 lacks: but this was owing, in a great measure,
to the Warehousing Act, by which persons were ex-
empted from many high duties ; yet it was pretty
well known, that the trade which the Commanders
and Officers carried on was frequently a losing one,.
notwithstanding the many privileges which they en-
joyed. Another reason why the trade had increased
since 1793, was the great increase of Empean popu-
lation in India; whereat' before that time, there were
comparatively but few Europeans.settled in the East.
The experience of the last 20 years taught him, that
no new articles wereftent out, or were demanded in
India. There were European merchants, and Native
merchants, residing there, well acquainted with the
wants and habits of the natives, and who, if any
articles of consumptions were required, would be-the
tirst to demand them. The Hon. Gentleman had
quoted, as an opinion of Mr. Colebrook:, an asser-
tion, that trade with India might be increased to an
indefinite extent. Mr. Colebrooke, in a subsequent
publications bad disclaimed the work from which
that remark vas taken, except as far as related to
subjects of husbandry and internal commerce. But
even if Mr. C. had so asserted, high as his authority
Was, yet he (Mr. G.) believed his own knowledge
of this subject to be equal, and he felt himself of a
totally different opinion. The Hon. Gentleman had
argued in favour of the extrusion of the China trade,
that in 1793 k amounted only to 4692,000 ; an 1803,
to £1,300,000. But this was owing to the Commu-
tation Act ; and it should be recollected that the Com-
pany had been buying and selling at disadvantage
the manufactures of the country—particularly those
a wiltshirel which now petitioned--not from com.

mercialAndness, as the Hon. Centletnttn hinted,
but from a wish to 'aid the distressed manufactures
of the kingdom, and an onwillingneseto lose,- on
ac-
count of partial fluctuations, the benefit of that per-
manent system which they conceived to be useful—
(Aitfiletne.) The Hon. Gentleman had dilated on
the increase of the exports from India, he had stated
that the exports, which in 1793, amounted-only to
R 181,700,. in 1798 rose to £BBl,OOO, and in 1800,
were at 5e1,700,000. Here the Honourable OM-
tleman had selected the best year ; for, in the list
year, the exports were only estimated at £1,100,000.
The whole amount, including private trade, and
that of the Company's Commanders, was irty-
two millions ; in this account fourteen millions con-
sisted of indigo. Of this indigo manufacture he
thought it necessary to say a few words. In 1783,
the Company were the sole purchasers of this com-
modity—they afterwards gave it to the manufac-
turers in India, and when it appeared likely to be-
come an advantageous source of traffic, it was re-
commended to Lord Cornwallis to encourage its
growth and sale. This was previous to the Act of
1793, and not to that, but to the previous provisions
of the Company, the increase of this article was to
be referred. The destruction of St. Domingo also
had much influence in advancing the sale of this
commodity. As to the quantity of cotton imported,
it was known that the Indian cotton could not com-
pete with the American, and that great quantities
remained Unsold in the Company's warehouses. In
fact, there were now unsold in their warehouses
42,000 bales of cotton, and 17,241 chests of indigo,
the imports of the four last years.—(Hear, hear.)—
And yet this was the trade which was quoted as an
inducement to the British merchant to embark in
undertakings which were likely to produce such
ruinous results. The Honourable Gentleman had
descanted on the impolicy of suffering the Americans
to have a free trade, while the English were exclud-
ed :—the Company were no parties to those public
acts of Government which granted that permission,
and had done all that lay in their power to counter-
act the effect of their trading. But it should be re-
membered, that at the time when that permission
was granted, the French and Dutch had possession.
in India ; and that our ports were opened to the
Americans, that they might be our customers, in.
stead of being the customers of the French and
Dutch. Afterwards, when the revolutionary war
broke out, the Americans being neutrals, had advan-
tages over us, by being enabled to carry their com-
modities to ports, from which we, as belligerents]
were excluded. This circumstance of neutrality,
which gave them so much the advantage over the
Company, had been sunk by the Hon. Gentleman ;
and yet what had been the increase ? The Hon.
Gentleman, selecting those years which best suited
his purpose, stated, that in 1800 it amounted to 19
lacks, in 1809 to 95 lacks : but a more impartial re-
view of the documents would shew, that in 1795-6 it
amounted to 19 lacks, and in 1808 had only increas-
ed to 63 lacks :—and it was to be observed, that a
very great proportion of the American export to
India was in bullion—a very small quantity in their
own manufactures. It was a singular fact, which
the experience of forty years enabled him to adduce,
that the exports from all India to all the world had
not increased within that period : he was in India in
1768, and had minutely attended to the affairs ( f the ;
Company since that time, and he was fuily able tes I
advance this statement, which aloe, in his mind,
shewed how little was to be expected from an open-
ing of the trade.— (Alifilutise.)—There were other
reasons for the increase of the American trade. The
first was, that the United Stites bad, on account of
the war, an access for a considerable time to South
America, from which we were excluded. It must
also be considered, that the great increase of the po-
pulation of the United States gave an increased con-
sumption to tr.. imports from India. He must
complain of the manner in which the Honourable
Gentleman had quoted from the Exposition of the
Court of Directors to the House of Commons.—
He had quoted merely the loss on the Indian trade
for one or two years, without quoting the produce
of several years, when it was not a losing trade.—
It appeared, that on the whole, there had been a
profit of considerably more than a hundred thousand
pounds annually. He would allow that this did not
include the India duties, which would otherwise have
been imposed. It never appeared to him that the
profits of this trade was, by itself, an object of much
importance to the Company ; but it was of great
portance as connected with the whole of the Indian
system. When the Company were called upon to re.
sign that, he conceived that they were called upon to
resign a great deal more than the trade ; they were
Called upon to resign the system of Government in
Bengal. (Applause.) He did not wish to appear
as if he intended to cast reflections on the Hon. Pro.
prietor for the part be had taken ; but he could not
avoid complaining of his having revived, upon this
occasion, all the controversies in which the Company
had been engaged for the last eighteen years, many
-4 which appeared to have been completely set at
rest. Whether the trade ought now to be enlarged
farther than was ever in contemplation in the year
1793, was a separate question : but this he would
confidently say, that nobody at that day had contem-
' plated its being enlarged as far as it now is by the
consent of the Company. He, therefore, could see
no beneficial purpose in ripping up those old disputes
and controversies. The Honourable Proprietor
(Mr. Hume) had treated the whole subject as if it
had been merely a commercial question ; whereas
every other Gentleman who had spoken, considered
it more as a political question, involving the vital
interests of the Indian Empire, and the titution
of this country. To come soberly to the ration
of the question, as it now stands, he wo y that
there was no rational prospect of increasing the trade
1 to India, materially, beyond what it is at present.
1 He knew it was hard to convince Gentlemen who
were embarked in a cause, and heated in it, as per-
haps the Delegates of the Out-ports might be ;—hut
as to the merchants who hoped profit from it, which
appeared so improbable, he would ask them, what
they meant to do, when they had once pulled down
the old and venerable fabtick of the East India Com-
pany ? Lord Melville could see no means of gover-
ning India well, but through the Company. Lord
Buckinghamshire said but little of his own opinions,
or of those of Ministers, but referred to those of the
manufacturers, some of which he had already stated
to them. So that without any steady opinions eater.,

% • -.11. •

tallied by his Majesty's present Ministers, the ques.
tion was, whether the East India 'Company Wore now
to be sacrificed to the clamours which had been
raised by some manufactured t (Aiiiikete.), Con-
ceiving the case of the Company to stand on every firm
ground of reason, justice, and policy, he hoped that
it would be supported by the judgment of an en-
lightened public, and by the decision of Parliament.
(After Mr. Grant had sat down the applause conti-
nued for some minutes.)
Mr. MORRIS related, with strong emotions, a fact
which had taken place in India. The natives had
been ill-treated by a private trader,- and, without
waiting the law's delay, they rose in a body and
massacred Mr. Martin.

Mr. TWINING (the Director) said, that having
taken a part in the discussion of 1793, he could not
consent to remain silent upon the present occasion.
He thought the negociatioas of the former period
ought to have inculcated this lesson,—that it is better
to trust to' experience, than run the hazard of dan-
gerous experiments. (40/astre.)—He thought that
the ablest men of the present day could not expect to
gain a character of wisdom, by treating lightlx.the
opinions of such men as Mr. Pitt and the Late Lord
Melville. He then read some extracts from the opi-
nions of those Gentlemen, favourable to the interests
of the Company. The Hon. Proprietor. (Mr. Hume)
in talking of the increase of the trade, appeared not
to have considered that this was more apparent than
real, as he had not adverted to the increase of prices,
which was one of the principal causes of this apparent
increase. (i/m/aese.)—lf the Petitioners now suc-
ceeded in their demands, he did not know whether
the Company had more to fear from their failure or
their success. If they succeeded, it could be only by
taking the Company's trade from them; and if they
failed, they would lay it entirely on the remaining re-
strictions, and would not be satisfied until the Com-
pany had given up every thing: He 'had listened
with much attention to the Hon. Proprietor; but he
thought that Hon. Gentleman could hardly advise
the Court of Proprieters seriously to prefer his single
opinion to the unanimous opinion of the Court of Di-
rectors, as well as of the other Proprietors who had
spoken. He must most completely disagree with
him respecting the tone of the communications of the
Directors—nothing could be farther from their
thoughts than a defiance of Ministers. As to the ar-
gu nent about their trade to India being a losing one,
he would ask, was there a commercial man who
would not feel it necessary to continue some parts of
his trade, even although Ile should partially lose by
them, iii orar to preserve the wltole by which he was
a gainer ? (4tfilause.)-11, therefore, this was a mere
commercial question, and that there was a loss on the
India trade, it did not follow that the Company
should wish to abandon it ; but it had been stated by
almost every speaker, that the question was more a
political than a commercial one. As to the question
of smuggling, if, as the trade is now regulated,
and notwithstanding all the care and attention paid
by the Company to prevent illicit trade, it is still
found impossible absolutely to prevent it, how much
harder would it b... when the owners of ships trading
to India may be themselves interested in. the illicit
trade, and perhaps merely depending upon that for I
profit in their speculations ?--;(.4lpida3re.) The intor-
mation which he had received hum a Commissioner
of Excise was, that probably for the future, smug-
gling would increase to an enormous degree.
Mr. RANDLE JACKSON cited the opinion of Mr. Fox
in 1793, to slew, that whatever ulterior views he
might have had respecting the patronage of India, he
never wished to take from -the Company its com-
merce. He had said, " that it even.,the Govatmtent
were to manage the territories, it would be absolutely
necessary that the trade should be carried on by a
Company, without which the revenues could not be
made available to the interests of the Empire." A
good deal had been said about the opinion of the
Commissioners of Excise; but when Government
chose to lay n string of questions before any of its
Boards, it was generally found that very complaisant
answers were returned. In this case, however, the
Commissioners had reported that Liverpool was a
port, which would be very favourable to smuggling,
and that there was only one dock there, in which the
India trade would be tolerably protected. The other
out-ports they seemed to consider still worse, and al-
lowed, that it would be necessary that the ships bound
to them should lae attended by revenue cruizers. They
particularly recommended, that no ships should be
allowed to sail round the North of Scotland. It ap-
peared to him, upon she whole, that their opinion was
only as to a choice among evils, but that they by no
means thought that the extension sought for would
not be an evil.

The CHAIIIMAN then stated, that by the courtesy
of the Court, Mr. Hume, who moved the amend-
ment, would be allowed to reply ; but he intreated
that Gentleman to confine himself to explanations of
the points in which he conceived himself to be misre-
presented, and not argue the whole question again.
Mr. Hume then ruse, and said that be was fully
sensible of the indulgence with which he had been
heard ; but, at the same time, he begged the Court
to recollect, that he bad been the single speaker of
that side, and he therefore thought that some kind of
balance might be made between the numbers and
quantity. if there had been any other speaker to
answer the witty and luminous observations which
had been made on his prolixity, he might probably
not have wished to trouble them again ; but when
there had been such a host of speakers on the other
side, many of them attacking him perionally and
many attempting to refute his statements and his
facts, he thought it absolutely necessary for him to
be indulged with the liberty of reply. Instead of the
regular order, he should beg leave first to reply to
what had fallen from the last Gentleman, and so to
proceed from the bottom to the top. The last Hon.
and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Jackson) had attached
great weight to the opinions of those men who were
in favour of his argument, but appeared to treat as
of no weight the opinions of Ministers, aided by the
advice and experience of the Boards of Excise and
Customs. He did not believe that such Boards would,
out of mere complaisance, deliver opinions contrary
to their own judgment and knowledge of the matters
referred to them. An Hon. Director had relied on
it as the foundation of his argument, that the trade
to and froth India could not be increased—.
Mr. GRANT said, in explanation, that what he had
said was, that there could be no material increase.
The ilaT. Mr, T11180(44, and one or two other

• I.

Proprietors, spoke to order. They conceived that
Mr. Hume was disorderly in entering into a general
reply, instead of explanation. -
The CHAIRMAN, however, having desired him to
proceed,

Mr. Hume resumed. He denied altogether any
irregularity, as the rule that he had hitherto observed,
was strict submission to the Chair. He then re-as-
serted his former statement, and contended that Mr.
Grant was wrong in not having made the allowances
that were necessary for the Indian duties, which
would In many cases have been of themselves profit
enough for a private trader. He al;o contended,
that from his own spewing, the trade of India had
been a losing one to the Company, if those deduc.
tions had been made. As to the cotton which was
stated to be unsold in the Company's warehouses, it
was not more than half, of one year's consumption,
nor the indigo more than a third. This„appeared to
him to be no very serious quantity, and it had not
appeared what was the quality of those goods which
remained unsold, or what were the prices asked for
' them. An Honourable Proprietor (Mr. Davis) had
stated, that he could have oistained tonnage from the ,
Company for 5000 tons any time these ten years.—..
This was' a statement which ought not to go to the
public unanswered. It had been proved, that a very
serious expence had been incurred by the private
traders for demurrage; and he would appeal to any 1
' person concerned in the agency of ships, whether
there had not been many instances in which they had
applied for tonnage without being able to procure it ?
Mr. DAVIS then rose, and spoke for some tithe in
explanation.
Mr. Jacicsos: spoke to order, and thought it not r
right to attempt toibear down an individual by such
frequent interruptions. Mr. Davis, or any other
Gentleman, might explain when the speech ended ;
but it was not one speaker out of a hundred who
could preserve the chain of his reasoning amidst such
repeated interruptions.
Mr. Ht'sae then proceeded to advert to the speech cl
1 of Mr. Robert Grant, who had called his facts hie.
levant and inconclusive. This expression had been
received with great applause from the Court, al. t
though the Honourable Gentleman had prudently
abstained from meddling with any of those facts.-d-
He had called the Edinburgh Review, an abusive
publication ; and he had censured it for arguing now
from any thing which had taken place in 1788. A..
The Honourable Gentleman had, however, himself •
taken the very same course, nod had argued from
the abuses in the Slave Trade, and even so far Lack 1
as from the inegularities in India in Lord C:ive's
time, against the merchants of Liverpool and Bristol
at the present day. He admired, as much as ally
other man, the tine, flowery, and metaphorical lan. l
guage of that Hon. Proprietor;—but he had misre.
presented him much, in stating that his opinion was,
that the extension of the trade would be unbounded,
and consequently the intercourse between the natives 1
and Europeans would be unbounded. He had con. 1
ccived that the trade would be much increased, but r.
he did not consider that this increase would be un.
bounded. As to all the evils which ha.ebeen imagin.-
ed from the Government taking the administration
into its own hands, his answer was, that Government
had: not proposed to do any such thing. Another
Hon. Proprietor had said, his speech was fitter fur
the meridian of Liverpool than for that Court.—
He would ask, however, how a speech, which tested
entirely on faits within their knowledge, respecting
the trade to India, could be irrelevant in that Coure?
One Gentleman had called him the organ of Lord
Buckinghamshire and tlit Ministers. Did that Gen- ,
tleman also consider Mr. Waithman as the own of '
Ministers in the Common Council ? That Geri&
man had taken a part upon this occasion, which, he
thought, had done him infinite honour. (Murmur:4
-One Gentleman had said, that not a thirtieth part of
his speech was relevant to the question, and yet had:
expressed a great desire that the whole should be pub.
lished. He must own he could nut perceive how a
speech so irrelevant as it bad been described, could be-
of service either to one side or the other. He would
indeed confess, that he was an ungrateful man (as i
had been hinted) if, having been long in .the service
of the Company, he was now to be their enemy. He •
disclaimed the imputation which had been cast against
him on this point. He was no enemy to the Company,h
but their true friend. If any Ministers were now too
wish to take their trade, or their territory, from'them.l
there was no man who would be a more zealous ad.;
vocate for their rights than he would be—(Aptlatur.)
The present Ministers, however, had attempted no
such thing. The petitioners had only. requested to
be allowed to participate in that part of the trade,
which he thought he had demonstrated to be a
losing one, anti which would appear to be a losinx
one even front the statement of the Honourable Di-
' rector (Mr. Grant), if those deductions which oughq
' fairly to be made were taken from it. He wished
that the Company should flourish as a tree, under
wltose refreshing shade the population of India mighi
find protection; but wishing well to the tree, NI
thought that the skilful knife of the pruner might hi
this case be exerted without injuring its luxuriance.,
His argument about the increase of the Americaq
trade was this ; that the commercial world absolutely
required so much of Indian produce, and thatiLthe
n
Americans had not been allowed to supply.t
British' Merchants would have done it.
The question was thou put on Mr. Hume's amend.
ment, which was negatived almost unanimously.
Mr. WETLAND then brought forward his Resolve
tions, in somewhat of a more compressed form that
Ihe had originally introduced them. He trusted that
the question had been now sufficiently discussed, and
that they might be presented to the Court without
further delay.
Mr. IMPEY supported these Resolutions, althougt
he should have wished them shorter. He expatiatei
for some time on the necessity of the persons in Wilt
shire and other places, who were benefited by du
Company, coming now forward in their support. ,
The CHAIRMAN, in putting the questions on du
Amendment and original Resolutions, made some
observations to the Court.—As to the patronage o
the Directors in India, if any one of them could b
base enough to recommend the carrying on a losin;
trade from that motive, it would be exactly the sam
as before.—He concluded with some comments o.
the speech of Mr. Hume.
The original Resolutions were then put and carrie
unanimously, with the exception of Mr. flume mg)
aad the Court adjourned.

_,,..~