Star.
London, England, 1831-02-26 00:00:00

CHANCERY REFORM.

The LORD CHANCELLOR held in his hand one of the two bills
which he had gone into at great length on Tuesday night last, and he
houli ill repay the courtesy with which their lordships had listened to
tun, it he were to say one word more than was absolutely necessary.—
Coon the former occasion he had omitted to state, that although he had
.t minden t opinion that the law of the adjudication of bankruptcy was not
an as good a footing as it might be placed, yet it was not at present the
Neet of this bill to alter the law in that respect, but merely to transfer
a to another tribunal. His lordship then detailed the mode which a
anomission of bankruptcy was now sued out, the proceedings in which
ewe generally behind the bankrupt's back ; and the most respectable
merchant in London might be declared a bankrupt, if any creditor of
his, w the amount of 100 L thought fit to make an ex-parte affidavit of
:In act of bankruptcy : to that course of proceeding it was necessary that
'owe check should be put, and he had no doubt, that when the new ml.
aunal should be formed, the experience which they must acquire in the
toerse of their judicial duties, would suggest some remedy which would
away with the facilities which now existed in striking a docket.
Lord LYNDHURST wished to take the present opportunity of
stating his opinion upon the important subject brought before the house
i)y the noble and learned lord on the woolsack, and without further pees
t'lce he begged to call the attention of their lordships successively to the
various points of the noble and learned lord's measure. He (Lord
Lyndhurst) entirely agreed with the principle of the first part of the
as
tit;
whole
scale and learnedof its
d s
billhealettlityo although he
ter he
eas( not
dzynd
yet acquaintedest) withweea .
painied to the great seal, it was his intention to have brought app
a bill for the purpose of carrying into effect a Committee of the
person in cases of lunacy. It appeared to him (Lord Lyndhurst) in
eases of that kind, it was necessary that inquiry should take place
in the immediate neighbourhood of the lunatic's residence ; he, there-
:are, was afraid that a permanent judge, however respectable, would
he f• and so effective as the Commissioners, who always had
osuit!..d themselves with great skill and intelligence. To evidence this
ia.:ecd tally instance the commissions of Davis, Brand, and others,
Talc!' took place during the period he held the great seal. At that time
a recurred to him whether a commission should be directed to a single
Lige, and he made all the inquiry on the subject that was possible, in
•!,1,1 to arrive at a proper and full understanding on the subject; the
r.stilt of his inquiry was, that he found no precedent whatever for such a
:tr.: cf practice. He thanked his noble and learned friend for now having
'lkea up the question where he ((Lord Lyndhnnt) left it. With re-
Tat to the refcrm proposed by the noble and learned lord in the Court
Chancery itself, the outline of the measure was both clear and
and met with his approbation. (Hear, hear, hear.) The
fir, point embraced some change as to the mode of paying the
Masters, a measure which he (Lord Lyndhurst) repeatedly, while
a efts, intended to have brought forward : and it would be recollected
tan last session he brought in a bill, which passed their lordships'
.*ant, which had this end for its object; that bill, he was sorry, did not
r..ad with the reception be thought it deserved in the other house of par.
::allent, and it was rejected accordingly. The Chancery Commission
stitch he (Lord Lyedlturs;) proposed, had for its object the paving of
:fie ray for still greater improvements. This branch, therefore, of the
oble and learned lord's plan had his most cordial concurrence, and he felt
crauful to the noble and learned lord for wishing to carry a point which
'iii have the same effect as the Chancery Commission. There was another
hich met with his approbation—he meant the contemplated change
••:;,. Registrar's Office, the forms and incumbrances of which bore
he=vtl9 rot suitor.,—there would be a difficulty, however, of getting rid
0: copy fms, which he was afraid could not be interfered with without
4aopting something in lieu thereof. There was another point of great
'llaertance, upon which he should reserve hie opinion for the present
'a alluded to the alteration proposed in the mode of taking evidence.
When he (Lord Lyndhurst) first entered the Court of Chancery, he
!nought there was nothing more easy than to adopt viva voce evidence
deposition, which was the Noble and Learned Lord's plan; he
found however, that he was much mistaken. Nor was he sal:shed with
his own views on the subject; Ike had consulted persons of great intelli.
;fence, legal knowhtlge, and experience, he meant the present Chief
Justice of the Common Pleas, Dr. Lushington, and Mr. Smith, all of
shorn thought as he (Lord Lyndhurst) There was, in short, no point
more discussed among the chancery Commissioners than that relating
to the mode of taking evidence, all of whom considered that it would
sot be safe to deviate from the present mode ; all of them were fully
aware of the inconvenience of that mode, but co:;sitlered that it would
b. aetter to put up with the inconvenience than adopt a difficult and
ulitful nit thod It ought to be recollected that all the advantage of
`;vet voce evidence over deposition, would be completely lost, if the evi-
dence is taken before one Judge, and sentence pronounced by another.
Ile merely mentioned these evils, rot as bars to the noble and learned
lord's measure, but to show that there were evils not easily to
g..t Over. (Hear, hear, hear.) In Courts of Equity, one party
•
;i-a.e to swear that he is ignorant of the whole of the evidence
Al the other title of a case. Nov. it will be limed that to take the
'Lie of the evidence in certain cases at one sitting, an adjoum :nett mast take place, and the party la be examined, if he be so in.
'lined, may make hipself acquainted with all the facts of the evidence
as
thehe her side, and so frame his particutheaelarthings without evidence accordinhavinggly.
othad observed before, he stated
sny ekcieled objection to the plans of the noble and learned lord ;
la was open to conviction; party feeling, v.hich had frequently stood
t the way at tile correction of abuses in the Chancery Court, should
}eve no effect as regarded him (Lord Lyndhurst), if the one great
"Meet which the noble and learned lord had in view could be ace
c,9roOlished. ( Hear.) He now came to that part of the noble and
!arced lord's measure which regarded the administration of justice
I. bankruptcy eases ; he was satisfied that almost always where there
r;er manses in cases of this kind, i: was under country commissions.
:I.‘! session, upon the suggestion of Lord Rosalyn, he (Lord
L)
I,teLtled to have nrought in a measure for assimilating the country lists
volah those in London. He was satisfied a great deal had been said out
doors about the youth and inexperience of many of the Commissioners
lof Bankrupts. Many of them, no doubt, were young ; but he was sa. I
abea upon the whole that the judicial part of the business was well per
sled by the London Commissioners ; a satisfactory proof of which, if
indeed were wanting, was to be found in the fact that very few ap-
-144. 10.111 the London Commissioners ever came before the Court of
411ctrY, and htl3 fewer were reversed. He had made particular in.
11'11,9 at the fd list for the sake of forming some opinion on the subs
J`cle and he found that the Commissioners of that list had discharged

all the business incident to 160 commissions in the course of three years
and a half; and out of this number there was only one appeal which
was discharged with costs. He thought it but an act of justice to state
-thus much on behalf of a greatly traduced body of men who discharge
their duties ably, accurately, with intelligence and fidelity ; at the
same time he did not mean to say that another more efficient tribunal
might not be devised by the noble and learned lord. With respect to
the income of the Lord Chancellor, it was somewhere about 14,0001.
or 15,0001 per annum. (Hear, hear.) He was satisfied that their
lorships would not think the rd Chancellor overpaid with this sum-
(Hear, hear,) Lord Eldon had set apart 2,6001. for the Vice. Chan.
eellor, for the purpose of expediting justice. He (Lord Lyndhurst)
should suggest that the 2,500 L be paid back, and the Vice-Chancellor
paid from the suitors in Chancery- He considered the retiring allow-
ance of 60001. too much, as there might be many retiring Chancellors ;
but he should recommend the noble and learned lord to direct his atten-
tion to this branch of his inquiry. He was further of opinion that a
retiring Chancellor, if circumstances so permitted it, should take office as
President of the Council, or some other. In what he had said he beg-
ged it to be understood that he left himself open for further remark
upon the constitution and alteration of the Courts of Commission, and
on the mode of giving evidence. (Hear.)
The LORD CHANCELLOR expressed himself satisfied with the
candid manner in which the noble and learned lord (Lyndhunt) had
expressed his objection with respect to the measure alluded to by the
noble and learned lord, as having been brought forward by him last See-
sion. He (the Lord Chancellor) considered at the time it was his
bounden duty to oppose it. With regard to the plan of taking evidence,
hie proposition was, that it should be taken before a Master in Chancery,
sitting in open Court, and that motions for new trials should be made
before the Lord Chancellor, Master of the Rolls, or Vice-Chancellor,
On this point he had the sanction of his learned friend Dr. Luahington,
who, from the nature of the Courts he practised in, could not be sup-
a very strenuous advocate for open discussion. (Hear, bear.)—
With respect to his plans on lunacy, which had been alluded to by the
noble and learned lord, he could say that they bad been laid before per-
sons most competent to firm a just opinion of them ; and, after the
most mature deliberation, in which he (the Lord Chancellor) took no
part, they came to an unanimous opinion as to the probability of their
proving beneficial. Notwithstandins what fell from the noble and
learned lord respecting country commissions, he was convinced that cone
change was necessary. It was now a regular job between attorneys and
counsel. When he said this, he did not mean to cast an imputation on
all country commissioners, many of whom were most profound lawyers and
excellent men. It was the system he found fault with, and not the com-
missioners. He also objected to the present system of proving an act of
bankruptcy, sufficient attention was not paid to it ; in fact, under the pre-
sent state of the laws it could not be done, a commissioner could not de-
vote sufficient time to the business, for he only took and looked upon
that office as a stepping stone to further promotion.—( Hear.) He had
every objection to the system, but he could again assure their lordships
that he felt no objection whatever to the men. His noble friend, he
hoped, would exercise his usual candour, and wait to see if his ob-
jections were not answered by the bills he (the Lord Chancellor)
was about to bring in. In hie proposed reduction of fees he took
away the funds from which he was bound by Act of Parliament
to pay the Vice Chancellor, and as the Civil List was not passed
perhaps he might never recover. He had ascertained from the
Secretary of Bankrupts that the loss to the Chancellor would
be from seven thousand pounds to eight thousand pounds a-year ;it
certainly was a great loss, but he did not think the legislature would con-
sent to the salary of the Lord High Chancellor being reduced to the level
of that of a puiens Judge. These bills not only took away hard money,
but they also deprived the person holding the great seal of the patronage
to which he looked forward for hit family.--(Hear.) Lord Thurlow
created an office of 10,0001. a-year for his son, which, however, was
now about to be abolished. He was also of opinion that an appellant
jurisdiction to some judge in the colonies would be of the greatest bene-
fit, and prevent appeals to the privy council—in this opinion the Lord
President concurred. He could not sit down' without thanking his
Noble and Learned Friend for the plans of improvements that he had
suggested, particularly in those relating to lunatics. He also ought to
express his gratitude to many Members of the other House of Parlia-
ment for their unwearied exertions in procuring a reform in the Court
of Chancery : for such exertions the country were much indebted. The
Noble Lord begged pardon for having three times trespassed on the at.
tention of the House.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH said the noble and learned lord had in-
troduced his lunacy bill on Tuesday, it was read the second time on
Wednesday, and on this day (Friday) it was ordered to be committed.
He considered such a hurried course quite unparliamentary.
The Lord CHANCELLOR was quite willing to postpone the Com.
mittec until Monday neat. In fact he thought, as also did the noble
lord (Wynford) that it stood for that day.
Committee postponed until Monday.
Lord TEYNHAIII postponed his motion on agricultural distress
until Monday.
A few petitions were then presented, and their Lordships adjourned
at a Quarter Wore EIGHT o'clock until Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The House balloted for Election Committees to try the merits of the
petitions complaining of undue elections for the counties of Dumbarton,
Clue, and Galway. The Committees were subsequently sworn at the
table.

SHAFTESBURY ELECTION.
Mr. PORTMAN said, he understood his Honourable Friend the
Member for Middlesex had a petition to present respecting the Shaftes-
bury election. He would submit to his Honourable Friend that it would
be better not to present that petition until after the trial of 41 persons
who are to be tried at the next assizes on charges connected with that
election, lest, if the petition were now presented, it might excite some
prejudice that might, by possibility, interfere with the course of justice.
Mr. HUME said he entirely concurred in the suggestion of his
honourable friend, and should delay the presentation of the petition
accordingly.
Mr. GOULBURN inquired of the t hancellor of the Exchequer
on what day it was his intention that the duty on printed calicoes
should cease, and on what day the drawback should cease to be
allowed ?

Lord ALTHORP said it was his intention that the duty should
cease as soon as possible, but he could not as yet nau:e the day ;
and that the drawback on export should be allowed for three months
after that day.

comanymt OF SUPPLL—icivy mnaATzs.

Sir J. GRAHAM moved that the house resolve itself into a
committee of supply.
The house accordingly revolved itself into a committee.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, he rose to address the Committee under con.
siderable difficulty, for in addition to his inexperience in office, and in
the duty he was about to perform, he was suffering under a loss sitni.
lar to that which his hon. friend the Member for Middlesex had lately
suffered, and just as his hon. friend had recovered his voice he (Sir
James) lust his. [The right hon. hart. laboured under considerable
hoarseness.] He should, therefore, be brief in the statement he had to
'rake. He was very desirous of avoiding wearying the house, or of
wantonly impugning the conduct of any of his predecessors By the
appropriation Act the Commons of England claimed and dt dared
it to be their right, not only to vote the supplies for the service of
the year, but of distributing them in such proportions as they thought
best to the different departments of the pubiic service. Alr. fiat.
sell in his work on precedents stated that in respect to the navy esti-
mates the appropriation act was not strictly enforced, as they were
voted by parliament under general heads, and not strictly under the se.
palate heads to which they sere applicable. In 1798, however, it was
determined that the appropriation act should be more strictly enforced
in its application to the navy estimates, and this had fur a time been
done ; of late years, however, the practice had been again departed
from ; but he thought the time was now come when it should be
rigidly enforced. (Hear.) Works of considerable extent had lately
been erected without having been ever brought under the considetation
of Parliamens. There was a work of this kind in the Victualling
Department at Weovil, near Portsmouth, on which there had been
expended 153,5341. without any vote of Parliament. (Hear, hear.)
Another work had been begun likewise without the sanction of
Parliament, at the Isle of Ascension, a hich, although the sum thus ap-
plied was not very considerable, being only 10,0001. yet small as it was,
it was improper to make any such appropriation without the concur.
rencc of Parliament. At Woolwich there was another work, for which
134,4651. had been voted by Parliament, but the whole suns which had
been laid out on that work amounted to 32540601. the surplus amount
of which had never been brought before the house. It was not the lion.
baronet's intention to begin, to carry on, or complete any works without
the consent of Parliament ; and he bad, consequently, omitted several
in Misestimate; but there was one work which he inserted in the estimate
for completing a contract at Leith, which had originally been undertaken
in the same way ; the sum now required was 6,0001. and there had been
already expended on it 7,9801. At Bombay there bad been 263,4001.
expended, without the authority of parliament, for ship-building. lie
(the hon. baronet) had inserted in his estimate • sum of 28.0001. for
that purpose. Since 1820, there had never been less than 1500, and
in one year 3000 men employed more than were sanctioned by par-
liament; and thus, in four years, there bad been expended in wages,
without authority, 1,345,0001. He would ask, how it was that govern.
ment could pay so much without the authority of parliament? To show
the danger of this mode of proceeding, and of not keeping the estimates
under proper heads of appropriatiun, he cited one instance where
3,750,0001. had been voted by parliament, only 2,265,0001. had been ex.
pended on the purpose for which it had been voted. In an explanation
from the Deputy Chairman of the Board, he had informed them it was
not the principle upon which they acted, to confine the appropriation
of the sums to the heads under which they had been voted. lie (the
Hon. Bart.) was bound to say that all sums should be preserved for the
purposes for which they were designed. The hon. hart. could show
I, that these occurrences were not fortuitous, for in 1823 and 1824 the
same thing had occurred with the army estimate& The hon. baronet
. to prevent all such recurrences, had prepared a balance sheet to lay be.
' fore the House, in which he had followed the rule laid down by the act
of parliament passed for that purpose; and, to prevent any confusion of
the balances, separate accounts would be kept by both the paymaster
for the Army, and the paymaster for the Navy, and for such
dews as were not ilkeetly -In connection with the navy. (Hear,

hear, hear.) It had been his wish to bring forward a very
low estimate; but he had brought forward what would seem a large
estimate for timber, but this was to lay in a store sufficient for future
PurPoieli. ifreAuleed ; and for steam-engines a large SUM on the mum ac-
count. Tne Hon. Bart. explained, that although it might appear that
Awe was an increase of men required to the number of 3.000, yet such
was not, in feet, the ewe, for when that number was added to the pre.
sent force, It would only bring the number to the sameamount that had
been returned when he took office, the 3,000 being required to complete
22n000 *-s"len and 10,000 uterine+, which were the numbers that the
house wete called u ton to pay. The honourable baronet then stated the
heeds of his estioutte :—Wages for 32,000 men, including marines, '
1,081,0001. ; wages of officers, ship-keepers, sc.
belonging to vessels in'
ordinery, 75,1101. ; Admiral y-oflice, 40,3851. ; Navy Pay-office,
31,000 h; Navy-office, 4.2,2991.; Set .ntific Branch, 20,2761. ; his Ma-
jesty's yards at home, 82,2491. ; his Majesty's yards abroad, 21,2111. ;
wages to artiflecrs, labourers, Ike. 534,2241. ; timber and other ma.
gerbil, for ships, docks, 8.. c. (deducting 750,0001. received for old
stores, 60,992 L) aid adding for steannengtnes 60,0001. 810,0301. ;
repairs sod improvements in his Majesty's yards at home
and abroad, 98.0901. pilotage and other contingencies. 50,5001, ;
transport establishmente and freight of naval and victualling stores,
25.0001. hired packets 24,0401. ships building at Bombay, 25,0001.
making a total of 2,968,4001. Since he had accepted office, he had
made arrangeelents for the abolition of the Paymaster of Marines,
and the Me-ter of the Victualling-office, and the Docks. in the
dock.yarde lie had abolished 76 offices, which effected a saving of
16,6741. and 18 dilute, which made a saving of 3,0001. He had in
this war altogether abolished offices to the amount of 27,2501.—
(Hear, hear ) Li genre instances, where the offices had been held
on a bargain to be entitled to a superannuation, he had not disturbed
the original bargain ; he had placed the person on his superannuation,
bat abolished the office, as he considered that the burden of the super-
annuation to which the person was entitled wan termineble, and it was
better to do so than to retain the precedent of having useless offices.
(Hear, hear.) There were a number of men who had been hitherto
employed on salaries, who were likewise entitled to superannuation ;
and with these he had not interfered; but instead of their receiving
salaries as formerly, whether employed or not, he had placed them on
day wages, to be paid them for the days that they were employed,'
they still being held entitled to their superannuation. The whole ex-
penditure u (mid be 114,4561. lets than the estimates of the preceding
year. (Ilear, hear.) The hon. baronet concluded with moving the first
item of the estimate.
Sir CLERK rose to reply to the attacks that had been made
upon the late Board of Admiralty by the Honourable Baronet, in say-
ing that they had acted unconstitutionally in expending money without '
the authority of Parlientent. The Hon. Member said that it would
impoesible to keep every item of the expenditure under their specific
heads. The lion. Member instanced the conduct of the American Con-
gress, who had made the attempt to keep their accounts strictly mpg.
rated in that way. but they had found it impossible, and were compelled
to abandon hoe-Meat, hear.) The Hon. Member went into a long
detail of the plaits that had been adopted with the estimates formetly,
and the several times that Parliament had interfered and directed
the mode in which the aecn'ints were to be kept; and he said that the ,
reason that the estimates had been resolved under three general
beetle, was to avoid the confusion that otherwise would inevitably
nexus from the Humber of balances that would arise to be settled when
rely item had to be considered separately. There had been a sum al.
asked for what was considered sufficient for all the purposes;
but it Lad been found that it would be destructive to the naval service
it the sums attested to each head were to be kept entire under exigen.
cies. The hon. ;lumber contended that the lion. but. had not themerit
that he claimed in bringing &mull fin the first time a balance sheet be-
fore the house; fur that while I.e (Sir (3. Clerk) had been In office the
mode o; keepiia; the accounts had been remodelled by direction, and that
Mr. 'l'. rho wee employed to make them up, had put them in such a train ,
that a balance rhea might be produced, and it was only by these means
that the lion. hart. hail been enabled to produce a balance sheet to the
house. The hon. member then proceeded to account for the several
devietions that had been alluded by die hon. baronet. He said that
he wok at Portsmouth had been undertaken at the desire of the then
Lord High Admiral (we believe his present Majesty), for the purpose
of consolidating the Stores and Victualling Office, which till then had
been on different sides of the water, and occasioned great trouble and ad-
ditional expenses in consequence. and that by the outlay on the works
there had been effected a saving of between 4,0001. and 5,0001. which was
affording the country en handsome interest for the money expended. He
explained as the retwon why ministers had not come before parliament for
the money for the works was, that they had to make a purchase of some
property for the building, and had their intention been made public, tbcy I
were afraid that the proprietors from whom they had to purchase, would
have enhanced their demand for the property. The hon. member was
assured that the hon. baronet would find it impossible to carry his '
present arrangement of the accounts Into practice. The honourable
member went into each item a übuse with which the late Admrialty
Board had been accused, and assigned reasons in defence ; end said
.that there had been deposited in the Exchequer the surplus money which
had been voted. He disapproved of the Hon. Bart's proposition to i
augment the naval force, and said that it had been the intention of the
late Administration to have confined the number of seamen and marines
together to 27,000. He complained that the expense of each dock-yard
was not specified, as in former estimates. He found the First Lord of
the Admiralty with 5,0001. a-year. Now, when be recollected the Right
Hon. Baronet's eloquent speech on the necessity of reducing all public
salaries, in which he had said, that of all abuses the salary of the First
Lord of the Admiralty was the greatest, and had reproached Lord Melville
with receiving 5,0001. during peace, for a place of 3,0001. during the war,
he felt considerable surprise at the resent estimate. (Cheers.) With
respect to the reduction of the Commissioner of Jamaica, the present
economical government had superannuated the commissioner for Ja.
maim, when they could have ranted him to the commissionership of
Bermuda, which had been resigned. They had preferred appointing a
third person to the latter place. He doubted whether the duties of
paymaster-general could be efficiently executed under the present ar.
rangement. The Right Honourable Baronet had appointed to the
accountant-generaiship, a place which he had created, and which he had
not hoticed, his own private Secretary. He (Sir G. Clerk) did not
dispute the qualifications of that gentleman ; but what he complained
of was the appointment. If tech a circumstance had happened last
year, it would have been described as a most scandalous job. He
wished the right hon, baronet would himself visit the dock-yards and
inspect them ; and if 1:e did so. he would find it right to replace many
of the officers which had been abolished.

it J. G II A it AM said, that with respect to his own salary, it was
under toe consideration of a Committee, and not thinking himself the'
best judge, he had waited for its decision ; he should cheerfully receive'
that decision whatever it might be, thinking that any salary, however
small, would be more than sufficient for any service which he could
peahens. It was painful for him to renew what he had said on a for-
mer occasion with retyeet to a noble viscount. lie did not deny that •
he ;tall referred to his retaining a salary which had been augmented due_
fog a great depreciation of money, but he had more especially com-
plained of his holding with it a great sinecure in Scotland of 3,0001.—
That, however, did not remove the question whether the Lord of the
Admiralty should continue in his salary of 180.1 ; it was before a
committee, end he repeated he should cheerfully submit to what-
ever decision was come to; but he hoped the house would exempt
his conduct from any thing like subterfuge or baseness. (Cheers.)
With respect to the Paymadership of the Navy, the duties were, as far
as he could judge, effectively performed. He had not superannuated
the C'ottimieeiooer for Jamaica for the sake of patronage, as had been
insinuated. The Commissioner for Jamaica had held that place for only
two years, and was reduced without being entitled is any superannua-
tion. It was not the Commiseionership of Bermuda, hut that of Ja-
maica, wl.ich had been tilled. With respect to the Accountant Generale
ship, the person who had been alluded to was no; his private secretary ;
he was entirely unknown to him, and had been recommended to him for
his skill, integrity, aril assiduity. It was said that it was a wise outlay
of 10,000 L at Ascension ; it might be so—but wily was not the fact
mentioned to the house? Why did it remain to be now mentioned for
the first titre?—{Loud cueriev.) He next mentioned the grams on
account of the works at t Veeble, there having been expenses of 80,0001.
54001. &e. while rot , i.e Fumy had been granted by the Parliametie
If the house were to have no coatroul—if the estimates were to be - e-
thing more than farce, shy were not such outlays brought be • the
lm ho ? As to the refluetiotis of offices, they had not been dec. by
c
him In his private parlour. nor by one Lord of the A dmiralty ; but
they had been etibinitted to the Board, and the Lords of the Admiralty,
taking the advice of sell-intimincel laid experienced individuals, hail
save:tweed ;hem. It had, however, been strongly urged tl.at in the
mot of an . inergeoey, his plans at d estimates would not adequately
avail 11411 : end it had been asked. in the event of an emergency—
What waithi he 'la ? In reply. lie lcul to state. that on such a ques-
tion as the steel:.-boats, he would take upon himself 'o decide as to what
he oilvt to pm pose. As to a great t mag.ncy, if the Parliament were
sitting, he would collie down immediately and ask the house for an
aid to enable hint to meet the emergency; if it were nut sitting, he
tboogiit they would be base and cowardly ministers who would nut at
once act on their own reepoitsibili y, till the Parliament could be as
speedily as possible convened, ',lying on the Parliament to sanction, it
it were round to be right, *hat had been done. to mixt an emergency--
I that he considered the constitutional course. lf,ia. such an event, they
should be hoard to bare acted wrong, it would become the Parham( nt
to disavow their acts to spurn them, and to i.elopt such steps as would
compel the formation of a new ministry. (Hear, hear.) With respect
to the present estimates, in describing ;hem, he might have made obser-
vations, the tendency of which wax to heat the feelings of some—but be
that as it might—and it was an effect that he had endeavoured as much
as possible to avoid—he had done his best to meet the demands of his
situation, well-knowing the difficulty of the task lie undertook
The estimates, in their amended or reformed shape, he admitted,
might not be quite so plausible to the eyes us others that had
preceded them ; but, after the most anxious consideration, he had
felt that he should be jus Bled in proposing them to the house—with
this condition, that he trusted the house would hear with them for the
present year, and receive them as a promise of what he would endea-
vour to effect. Ile had imperfectly introduced the balances ; but, be
the result of Ids efforts what they would, he hoped the house would
next year Insist on the presentation of a regular balance sheet, to thew

the sums received and the amounts expended. (Hear, hear.) He had
endeavoured to apply a distinct remedy fur a specific grievance; and
he trusted that in what he had done—lt pelting that he by no means con.
sidered his labours perfect—be should show that his labours in his offize.
had not been in vain, though he had been thereo:4 MUM 2 or 3 mono:.
H. had endeavoured to apply an efficient remedy toe specific. e, .1 ;
hut, in viewing his endeavours, he trusted that for the present the
house vo.uld rather biok forwards than backwards. lie had eilte .-
voured to substitute a real, true, and substantial remedy for what nail
long been admitted to be a grievous evil ; and though the plat,s
might not be perfect, he had only again to ask the house to b ar
with them for the present session, and take them as a pledge tot t.,e
future. (Hear.)
Mr. P. THONIPSON core idered thatl it would he mos t
portant to have the Tn.asurer of the Navy to keep distinct
counts of all receipts and outlays. and, above all, to rettitti deuttis
of balances ; and while that office was pined to another office. all
those details might not be accomplishaale. Till recently tittle %to< a
Paymaster, who pt. !formed most of these minor details. 11
tended that offices had been reduced ur combined, which the la: l;--
Yernment, with its invariable desire to preserve Parliamentaty pattoq
would not have effected.--(Eneers.)
Mr. F. LEWIS feared that the joining of two offices. as in the it,.
stances of the Vicc.Piesident of the Board of Controul and the "It, t.
sorer of the Navy, efficient remit., would not be secured for 11,c Dub-
lin. If the Treuurership were to reuta:n en its pre's:Le ton I:.
trusted the House would, by increase of salary or otherwise, is,ce!.•
the efficiency of the node of transacting the business of the der II
men;.

Mr. HUME said the hon hare. et (sir G. Clerk) had with gstar
adroitness led the house from the consideration of the points tally hr.
fore it, and which were of the greatest importance, and he tru- t: d a..t
they would endeavour to recal- attention to matters that had passed.
Atter what had been detailed to them to-night, it was manifest that
they had been the dupes tOr many years of ministerial estimates ;
and for the extraordinary applications of money there was no pre-
text, no defence, no excuse or emergency or war. lie applaudel
the improved arrangetneatts of the estimates, and trusted that the
would be attended with increased amendment ; at the same :inn! he eat .
teased he had expected greater reductions. The estimates o:
were, speaking in round numbers, 5.300.000; those for thi, year (ami it—
sums that were leaked for it was stated were positively wanted) amounted
6,800,0001. so that in reality there was an increase of half a tutiltoti ;
and that, he took the liberty of saying, was a considerable sum f.or t:
navy alone. He had expected the reduction of half a million at L•as.,
if not of a million. The deceptions that had been practised in the a•tt-
mates for years—they deserved no better name than deceptions am'. d .
lusions—were of the most scandalous character ; and he thought tha,
House would notdo its duty except it forthwith instituted tne most rigid
Inquiry as to the outlays of thousands, ten of thousands, and cyan
millions, without the sanction, intervention, or even knowledge of mat
House.—( Loud cheers.) The Hon. Member then tome an elaborate
review of the estimates, and still further exposed the several hulas of
charge incurred by late administrations, without any vote or knowledge
of the House, as far as estimates were concerned. He hesitated not to
say that he thought the Attorney-General ought to be convoked on
subject. In conclusion he said he could not think that five and a halt
or six millions could be wanted for the Navy ; he thought one, or one
and a half million might have been saved. Why constantly keep
building ships. having more than we could possibly want, or man
Why, masters of the seas as we were, should we have throe or tour time -
as many ships as other nations !, He hoped these estimates would be
revised. He must protest against the magnitude of the amount, it was
beyond the wants of the wonky, and beyond what the country ought
to be taxed to bear.

Sir B. MARTIN said, the practice the Navy Board pursued under
the last Administration, was that adop.ed by previous Navy Boards fur
more than a century. Though the money might not always have been
expended eased, under the items charged, the ..mounts had been scru-
pulously expended and charged. The practice regarding the number of
men also had not been deviated from.
Sir HENRY PAIINELL said it would, no doubt, be very con-
venient for Gentlemen at the head of departments to have large sun.s
at their disposal at their own discretion ; but it was contrary to every
sound principle. (Hear, hear.) Ile had examined the account of th
naval expenditure of France, from which it appeared that every sum
was expended according to the vote for the particular invite for
which it was granted, so that old that was said of the insuperable
difficulty of such an arrangement was wholly without foundation. It
showed, however, the immense importance of putting the vaulr t.t
the public accounts into an intelligible simple system. (Hear. ht..%
hear.) It was evident we had been going on under a course of I.)
tematic deception ; voting one thin,' when the money was to be apillie,!
to another. He must own that the estimates of the present ministry
disappointed hint ; he thought a considerable reduction might be mad.,.
The noble lord bad referred to his work as authority for repealing taxes
that pressed on industry ; but there was nothing in his work to justity
the imposition of the new taxes the noble lord had proposed. His
proposal was that taxes should be repealed and expenditure diminished,
and he thought there was such a strong public feeling in favour of that
mode of proceeding, that the individuals in that house alto continued
to press it would certainly finally succeed.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, the works at Weevil were calculated to
cost no mote than the buildings in Portsmouth, which were to be re•
linquished, would sell for, and it certainly would be productive of
great convenience and eventual saying. Ascension Island was found an
extremely useful station, and the works erected there of great utility.
He feared the reductions in the medical department of the navy would
be injurious to the service. He thought the right hon. baronet sould
have done better to have amalgamated the Victualling and Navy Boaid,,
by which lie would have got rid of a chaitman and deputy chairmat
( Hear.) He thought the right hun. baronet was quite right to keep up
the efficient force of the navy; he should be very sorry to see it letdown.
He thought culling home the Commissioner from Bermuda, which had
been given him as some compensation for his sufferings on the Jamaica
station, rather bad treatment. (Hear.)
Sir JA MRS GRAHAM said, he was in the very awkward situ:-
don of bringing forward large estimates, under heavy pledges, to pr.-e-
-thic economy in every way. He had explained to the house the Cif
cumstances shich made him think it rtceetsary to propose the
estimates he had done, and he aas confident that the house vii. hats
sanctioned the increase of the army, would not refure to uphold the
navy. (Hear, heat.) He would fairly tell the house that he %tas se.
riously alarmed at the extent of the expenditure in Berinn.la. and it
became necessary to send an officer there on whom they cou!ti tul:y
rde, to report on the state of the works; and Captain Usher was tax
office' selected for that purpose. (War.)

air. HUNT said he would not interfeN, but il•at ive millions ni the
public money was to be thspos,d of. On bel:all of the people of lie: '-
land, he thanked the First Lord of the Idmiralty for having expos, er a
system which the people of England had long suspected. It app.ared
that there was annually large aunts of money voted fur timber for the
navy. He was i.ifortred that the tienbcr for the navy was supplied in
an extraordinary manner. He had sent a friend that morning to the
Board of Admiralty IJ know when the last contract for timber was made,
and when there would be another contract, but all it-fan:a:km has le.
fused. When the hon. baronet below hint (Sir 0. Clerk) was d, -end-
ing the late :.dministration, end was so loudly cheered. an lion.
metr.ber whom he did not know, came and whispered in his ear. " You
see, Mr. Hunt, the devil is nut quite so black us he Is palm d." Ile
replied, " Let me see the Devil all round before I give an (Tit him"
He had now seen the Devil all round, and thought him as black as ever
he was painted.—(A laugh.) The people were dissatistiA at the want
of reduction It the Right Hon. Baronet had brought forward en esti-
mate for seven millions, the late 31inistry would support thy. lie was
sorry there was no reduction. He was taunted out of do:,:s ass hay-
ing allowed such estimates to pass without dividing the IT use; hut
slimsters being pledged to an effectual reform he felt himself
tied. (A laugh.) He was willii.g to give them every suppo, tto ens.
ble them to carry through the great question of reform; if they-brought
forward an efficient reform they might depend on the support t.f the
country; but they would never satisfy the country unless they gave
vote by ballot. (Cries of oh !oh !) If it was cries of oh ! oh
against the ballot, they might &peril it would be changed into et:es
of woe I woe ! ((boost laughter.)
Mr. HUME said he would not take the sense of the house on the
vote for the number of men ; but when they ca -he to vo:e the n;-mey he
would propose to reduce the amount or [7:4: SalaTiOlot sinecure ott;e. a.
31r. LEADER was surprised that in a vote of six ut inn.
ney, but 1311:4. was %cited for the maritime service of Irtiasol
Sir J. GRAIL-01 said lie hoped his hon. friend (Mr. Hume) would
not object to a few offices that were tetamed as rewards :or Ow roost
ti.s:higiiisheduflicers of the navy.
slr. 11113,113 Raid he consideted the marine. as meritorious us any
part of the service of the country, and yet they were n,:glected. There
was not a First Lietvensnt in the marines that was ra. in that situation
23 years. The sinecure 'Aces in the marine serv.ec shou:d he given
to marine eMeent instead of taval officers.

Z4it JA MRS GRA fl A NI said it was intended to abolish the once
of Payntas:er of the Marines, and to break up the establishment, and
to Rake the Tr.:wittier oi the Navy Paymaster of Marines without salary,
It was the intention to make Sir James Cockburn lespector t f Marius,
as no offieir could be more nieriturotts. He was rot acquainted with
Sir James Cockburn when he came into office, a d the appoh mint
was made with regard to the public service ouly.—(llear, hear.)
NH. HUM I; though he meant to object to the office, he did not
mean to objet to the man. lie cared n.ithing about the min —(A
laugh.) This officer was never in the marine corps, and it was casting
a reproach on the whole corps to appt,int him a General, over the heads
of so many officers. He would pro; ose an amertliii.mt, tor the purpose
of excluding Sir James Cockburn. Tie hon. gentleman thn tr.,,red
that the number of men be 31.999 %cornea, including 9.999 merineb....
(A laugh ) He moved this for the purpose of excluding fair James
Cockburn, and vmuld divide the house on it.

Lord HOTHAM complained tuat an njust utiging existed a.
waded the marines; the service o: that corps could ner.r be too
highly rated. •
Lord AI.THORP said, the arrangement only ot nt to substitute
the Adjutant•Otneral Matins for the .rt petior-Gessaal.