Star.
London, England, 1831-03-29 00:00:00

lord to cerr.ct the abuses which had crept into it. There was
no one in the country bold enough to deny that the borough
system was not an abuse ; and as toe the charge of upsetting the Con.
stitution, it was one which could never be maintained. The measure
war not one of destruction, but of restitution. It had been called re-
volutionary ; but it never could be the wish of any noble lord to an
soy measure whiebbad a tendency to lead to such an efrect. The
noble duke ( Wellington) schen be brought forward the Catholic clues.
tion said, that when abuses • had aept into the constitution he should
have no hesitation frees time to time to make alterations; and
the noble lord (Whancliffe) need not be alarmed that this bill
would ()venom the constitution. Did the noble lord believe
that there was any treason lurking in disguise when it was proposed to
give the elective franchise to the West Riding of the county of York ?
Let him (the Duke of Richmond) implore their lordships, when that
bill should come before them, which was the result of the cool and
calm decirion of the Cabinet, not to withhold their concurrence from it.
Let him implore them not to refuse their sanction to a measure which
would have the effect of uniting and knitting together the hearts of all
his Majesty's loyal subjects. Let him entreat them not to reject a
measure which was supported and hailed with the greatest satisfaction
by all the calm and reasonable people of England.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY was not disposed to prolong
this discussion, for the pitoper time would arrive for him to deliver his
sentiments on the question of the bill, should it unhappily come up
from the other house. He should not now venture to trespass un the
time of the house, had it not been for the speech of the noble duke who
had just sat down. He altogether denied the charge of inconsis-
tency brought against hint by the noble duke. No once could say
of him that he had been a pro. Catholic and now an anti-Catholic, er
that he had arrogated to himself the merit of being one of the strongest
supporters of the Church and State, so far as a proof of that support
was given in forwarding the Eldon testimonials. (Hear, hear, hens.)
Who could have supposed that the noble duke would have ever
accepted office from those very Whigs, whose measures he had al.
ways resisted.

The Marquis of CLANRICA RDR congratulated the house on the
fulfilment of what he had anticipated some nights ago, namely—that
when the question should come before the house it would be supported
by a majority of their Lordshirs • and that they would take their proper
position in leading the minds of the people. This was all he wished to
say. Of the several noble lonia who had addressed their lordships, only owe
had spoken decidedly against the bill, and that was the noble lord who
had brougbt forward the present motion. ?Many things had been said
against Lord John Russell, and the course he had adopted in the
other House of Parliament ; but when the bill should come be.
fore their Lordships, he hoped to hear only such arguments as
would show that the feelings of the house were in perfect con.
cert with the loudly expressed feelings of the country. He contended
that the bill met with the decided approbation of the people from one
erd of the country to the other. lie must further say, that when the
measure should come regularly under discussion, a more disgraceful
weight to the house than the present would never have been witnessed.
Their Lordships bad an important duty to perform, which was to give a
sound and salutary direction to public opinion. They were all aware that
what passed in that house found its way to the public, and it was most
essential that wha:evcr did pass, should have a proper effect upon the
public mind. For his own part, he was ready to give his cordial
support to u measure emanating from the Minister of the Crown,
sanctioned by the Sovereign, and hailed by the loud acclatnatitms of the
people.

Lord PLUNKETT felt reluctant to trespass on their lortlships'
indulgence, as the question had alr.ady been so strongly and effee.
tively spoken to by several noble lords on that side of the house. He
did not now rise for the purpose of adding to the triumph they Ilan ob-
tained in seeing all arguments against the measure abandoned by its
opponents. Neither should he take the liberty of addressing their
lordships en the present occasion, if he were nut apprehensive that he
should not have an opportunity of d liverieg his opinioae upon the
bill when it should come regularly before the house. He assured their
lordships that he had not approached the consideration of this queatlon
without very great alarm, for he felt that it involved an extraordinery
change in the mode of administering the Constitution ; but he was,
at the sante time, relieved from that alarm when he found that
those who hail represented this as a new and dangerous system,
had now abandoned such a line of argument. After seven days'
discussion in the other House of Parliament, it was known, it was ad-
mitted on all hands, that the principle of reform was too powerful to
be resisted.—(Hear.) That which was before looked upon as a robber,
was now allowed to be a fair creditor coming with a just dementl. end
admitted within their doors, the only objection being as to prompt
payment, fee many wished to liquidate the debt by instalments. (Hear.)
He did not know what scheme of refotni was contemplated by the op-
ponents of the present measure ; but lie thought that the Noble Lord
who had brought forward this question had nut made out such a case as
could make those Noble Lords on the.Oppesition side give him their
support. Entertaining, as he did, the highest respect for the judgment
and sagacity of Mr. Canning, he still thought the opinions of dead men
ought not to regulate the conduct of the living in ull matters of this de-
scription. It was quite obvious that the living ought to decide for
themselves. Who could say that if Mr. Canning were now alive,
he might not feel it his duty to declare himself an advocate for
reform ? The Noble Duke who was at the head of the late Go.
vernment, and the colleagues who had acted with hint, resigned their
situations, because they felt they could not resist the question of I'ar.
liamentary Reform, and those who succeeded them were now called
upon to resign, because they had taken up the question of Reform.._
What was to become of the country under such circumstances? How
was the Government to be carried on ? If the opponents of the bill were
prepared with a safe and secure plan of Reform why not bring it formed
and ley it by the side of this measure ? Was it for a moment to be sup-
posed that a noble earl who had devoted his whole life to the cause of re.
form would so far disgrace himselt as to abandon it the moment he got into
power. No, both the noble earl and the rest of his Majesty's
Ministers were well aware that the Lest mode they could adopt for
allaying discontent, was to bring in a full aid sufficient measure of
Reform. They would not only cover themselves with disgrace, but
leave a legacy of disgrace to all that should come after them if they
abandoned the question ; for in that case no confidenca whatever could
be reposed in the professions and declarations of public. men. Tile
season of excitement had arrived, the stolen was raised, the waves were
lashing around, the vessel was heavily laden and ready to founder, the
Noble Earl seized the helm in the moment of imminent danger, to
steer her to her destined port, and every man was bound to assist
him. (Hear, hear.) The charge of revolution, which by a moat
ridiculous and offensive abuse of terms was brought against the
measure, he now found to he given up; but it was still sail to
be a great and extensive change. He admitted it to be so; but
could any man pretend to say that, because it was a great and ex-
tensive change, it ought not, therefore, to take place ? (Hear,
hear.) He himself had often witnessed great and extensive changes
adopted, when the State of the country required such measures. He
found that the people of England had ietetriably proved themselves
true to those great principles which they bad learned to appreciate for
upwards of a thousand years. The system founded on those principles
they regarded as their birth right, as securing ficedom to their persona,
and maintaing their property inviolable. The people of England never
had the folly to say that they would make their principles bend to their
rules ; but, on the contrary, they did ray that they would make their
rules end to their principles. Nothing could be more et variance with
the principles of the British constitution than a Fort of stickfast resolu
Lion to the existing state of things, let the encumbrances of the counter
be what they might. What did their Lordships call reformation ?
Was it not that, or was it not a great and an extensive change ?
( Hear, hear.) lie spoke not in reference to the alteration that
took place with regard to different doctrines of Christianity, but
as to the temporal affairs of the church. What did their lordships call
the act of Henry VI. when .108. freeholders were fine established ? 11" as
not that a great and an extensive change ? What did they say of t'.c
Union with Scotland ? Was not each of those measures a great arid an
extensive change? Was not the final settlement of the Catholic ques-
tion a great and extensive change ? It was quite clear that the Coma-
tution not only recognized hut provided a permanent machinery which
should enable the crown to make changes when necessary, and the prin-
ciple was spoken of by Mr. Locke. Those persona who held a contrary
doctrine, explored history, not with the deep research of statesmen, but
with the curiosity of antiquarians. But he maintained that a much more
important change had taken place since the revolution of MO, than any
as yet upon record. A great influence or wealth and commerce had con-
tinued to increase from that period, and gave rise to a large class of per.
suns, whose knowledge and experience qualified them to till all the prin.
cipal places in society—persons who were intimately acquainted with
every useful branch of art and science. Such were the persons that now
came forward and urged the great measure of reform with an irresistible
pressure. Their lottiships had a choice of two courses open to them,
either to stand the brush of public opinion, or bring these persons
within the pale of the constitution, and make them friends and allies,
instead of determined enemies. t was said by many persons that a
spread of light and knowledge was dangerous. He was ready to
allow that an imperfect spread of light and knowledge might be
so, by giving rise to folly and arrogance, but this could never
happen if the people were thoroughly and perfectly informed. If
they once purified the institutions of the country, they would require
no safety lamp. It was said that this Constitution worked well, and
needed no change in any of its parts. He fully agreed in the cube-
gium passed upon it, and believed that no Constitution of any State,
ancient or modem, ever worked so well. It was the admiration of the
people of every country. All foreigners admired the independence of
the judges, and the pure administration of justice, independent of the
power and influence of the Crown, but what foreigner admired either
Gatton or Old Sarum 1 What foreigner admired the principle by
which the representation of the people was bought and sold ? (Hear,
hear.) It was an abuse of the Constitution, and it was the object of
this bill to root out those abuses, and to restore the Constitution to its
ancient splendour.

The LORD CHANCRLLOR thought it would be unnecessary to
trespass long on the time of the after the able speech of his noble
friend, the Chancellor for Ireland. He would not, therefore, enter into
the details of the measure. Petitions from all classes were pouring in
to both houses of parliament, and those to that house entreated their

lordships, that when the measure of reform came before them, that
they would speed iet course to the foot of the throne. Some petitions
hied certainly been presented against It, and noble lords had entered
their protest, in which they said, " Wait till an opportunity comes.'
that we may oppose the measure, the advent of 'lda we shall
gladly hail--out mouths will then be unlocked, and you shall see
with what ardour we shall meet the question.:. Meet us who dare,
was the cry. (Hear, hear.) Let an opportunity be given, and MOW
protests will be made, and more petitions will be presented. Skirmish-
ing of this kind went on, and the opponents of the measure said all
they wanted was an opportunity ; but when opportunity was afforded
them, they, one and all. shrunk from the field. It was once said, we
who are not reformers follow a direct course ; but there is no dealing
with you who are for the affirmative of the question. What one main.
mined another abandoned ; what one clings to another attacks. What
this man delights in, and makes the corner-stone of his measure, is by
the other run down as fatal to the Constitution, so that there is no
likeness or face, the same amongst the various plans, each
having the same plan. This was what Mr. Canning used con.
!newly to argue, and with his wonted felicity, for be never lost an
opportunity of avowing his principles—he never refused his right to
r. ply when the reformers had made an unhappy movement at the
beginning of the day—he was always found at his post, and he always
held the same plan, and was always consistent—he made great play
(end nobody had felt it more than he (Lord B.) had with this argu-
ment, to which he had shortly addressed their attention—but he (Lord
B.) was 1101 V agreeing with their lordships, agreeing with almost the
whole of his fellow-countrymen, who had adopted, as their chosen
child—the child of the it patronage and fostering care and love, this
measure in its whole extent—its whole detteilio—its whole arrangement
—without being captious about some trifling matters that might be best
altered, when more thoroughly discussed ; but he with them maintained
the propositien that this was the retain—that there was no longer any
.difference about reform—no longer the discrepancy with which we were
formerly taunted—no longer a difference of opinion between one man
and another—so that one hardly knew whom to contend with, or what
men to grapple with. But if all was simple on the one side, how was
it with the enemies' plan? What was their argument ? How
many of them were found to agree together on the same question of re.
form I, How many of them took the same view ? Let us look at that,
and it would then he seen how we had changed places, as regarded the
argument. He could not conceive for himself any two lines of argu-
ment more completely adverse one to the other, than that which had
been adopted by his Noble Friend who brought forward this motion,
and that which had been adopted by others heretofore. (Hear.) Ills
Noble Friend admitted that whatever might be his former opinion—
whatever might be his wish on the subject if it were left to him to de-
cide the question for himself, he could no longer deny the necessity of
fteform. ( Hear, hear.) He said, that people bad expressed them.
selves clearly and loudly, and with unprecedented unanimity on this
great occasion—he said that the voice of the people, raised as it had
been, in peaceful, though in loud and intelligent accents, was
irresistible for reform. Therefore the noble lord said that reform must
be granted, end to a certain degree he must admit that reform could
only be granted, in order to yield to that irresistible impulse, and that
reform, in order to satisfy the people, must be granted, not of a nominal
hut of an effectual description. What said the noble Duke ? If ever
he (Lod Brougham) had heard a declaration notified, as it astounded
hint, if ever he sae grieved in his public life at the line taken by a
public man, whose great services deserved our homage—whose equally
great services at the head of the King's Councils, he had ever
been foremost to acknowledge, and should to his latest breath
continue to acknowledge—it ever he was mortified and heart.
chilled at a departure from what he expected, and hoped would
have been the course of conduct which his sagacity and good sense
pointed out to him—and his abilities, as a political maa as well as a
Cronin would have enabled hint to pursue—it was that fatal declare-
tette with which he commenced this session ; but after the irrevocable
word had flown from him, that he (Lord B.) should have heard him
afterwards, three or four days ago, in a ntenly, consistent, and to his
:nett!, most., laudable manner' avow that his opinions remain un-
changed—whilst others around him were backsliding from the faith—
dills, others made the victims of expedience, ()ref temporary or indivi-
dual plans, and rendered callous by such grounds, were fest, one
by one, dropping off from his side, and abandoning the cause they
had before ticrur,d—that he should have heard hint, in a manly
plain style, tell their lordships that his opinion remained unchanged—
far front exciting his teounisitment, it but added to his admiration.
It was exactly what he heal expected. Ile (Lord 11.) might prove the
noble duke's consistency, and he felt that a man might be perfectly con-
eistcitt and perfectly in the wrong. The noble duke was yoked with
mates who did not pull the vessel of opposition along the stream, or of
whom one pulled one way and one the other, fen both pulled opposite
ways. The noble duke was satisfied with the Government, and that
he could not add one star to the galaxy of its perfectitina ; but hie noble
friend now leagued with him in hostility to his Majesty's Government,
entirely and totally differed from hint—and differed from Government
only in degree. Had he not then made out the proposition with
which he ventured to set out, that the reformers retaliated the taunt,
which In former times used to be levelled at their heads, and that no
two of them seemed to agree in any direct proposition. There was
nothing wonderful that they who brought forward the measure
should have different plans, but that men who had only a negative to
support—who had nothing to do but to deny what others asked—to re•
but what others propounded—that they should be found so totally at
variance one with the other he could not help looking at as a singular fe-
licity of this great measurmand strongly indicating pressure of argument
and pressure of public opinion. He could not help saying a word as to
another most valuable concession recorded by his noble friend, viz. as to
the universal acceptation of this great measure. All quarters of the
country, counties, cities, towns, all tanks and descriptions otpeople, men
of every class in politics of every sect in the church, of every shade in re-
form opinions, appeured with almost marvellous unanimity to have
abandoned their differences, and united for this plan. But this was
not the most extraordinary chapter of the unanimity ; they who were
directly injured by it- they whose franchise was to be shared with
others; those whose exclusive monopoly was gone; they who, in
fact, and to all intents and purpose's were disfranchised, had een
the first to tidal to the general tide of honest patriotic feeling,
and yield up their exclusive privileges on the altar of national
benefit. It was said let the dates of the petitions be put in : he
knew they were of recent date, the people only came forward at
intervals. The table of the other House was crowded with petitions
in 1791, again in 1819 ; but now, by a great and simultaneous
movement, they again flowed in; and woe to that Government
which was dead to the signs of the times, and that would exasperate
the public by refusing this measure. (Hear.) He had no fear
only from a discontented people, and them he did fear when he
knew that they were in the right. (Hear.) Mr. Canning was always
consistent in his opposition to reform; but if he had lived to the pre-
sent day, he tee ould have seen the necessity of it. Mr. Pitt had always
voted for reform in power or out cf power—lie had always said, without
reform, no hottest man could fulfil the duties of a minister of this coun-
try; and he (Lord Brougham) had the most intimate conviction that
such was now more imperiously the fact than at any preceding period of
the hietety of the country. He entertained also the utmost certain)
that the legislature would do its duty, and that the Bill would pass with
triumphant success.
The Duke of WELLINGTON.—The noble and learned lord on the
woolsack had done him the justice to say that he had not changed his
opinion ;he had not. He was still of opinion that not one of the bo-
roughs mid be disfranchised without an act of delinquency was proved:
any more than he could be deprived of his title and seat in that house.
Neither did be see how the representation could he improved. He had
contended all along, and still did so, that no necessity for this change
existed. He objected entirely to the principle of the bill. The noble
duke then went into various remarks on the details of the bill. The
House of Commons has shown itself, particularly since the peace, to
be the most efficient legislative body that ever existed in any country.
Their services have been continued up to the time of provoking the die-
cusrion on this subject. He was quite content with the present mode
of election ; and said it was his opinion at the opening of the session it
would continue so until the day of his death : (hear, hear.) It was per.
featly true, that the late government brought forward the measure of
Catholic cmanipation ; in doing so they only did their duty—but they
lost many friends. The late election has certainly produced a strong
desire for Parliamentary Reform, but he did not believe that that desire
was irresistible : (hear.) But it' the measure were fairly discussed on
both sides, and refused, the country will calmly submit to it without
clamour : (hear, hear, hear.) The country will, as on all former
occasions, submit to the wisdom of Parliament (hear, hear, hear.)
ern the question of the Civil List it appeared as if all parties com-
bined against the Government. Parliamentary Reform had no-
thing to do with his resignation as a minister of the crown. lie iodgned
because he had not the confidence of parliament, and in no connexion
with reform. Noble lords said he took office on these principles—re-
trenchment, peace, and parliamentary Worm. With respect to retrench.
mem. he believed the noble earl and himself perfectly agreed (hear), for
it had turned out that another sixpence could nut be saved. With res-
pect to peace, he had an equal desire with the noble lord to maintain it.
The next question, of parliamentary reform, he differed with him. He
had no doubt his Majesty had given his permission to bring it forward,
but ministers ought to have introduced a plan of reform that was not
likely to upset the institutions of the country. The noble duke then
went into the details of the bill, and urged at considerable length his
objections to them.
Earl GREY said, the noble duke had fairly stated the principles on
which the present ministers meant to carry on the Government. They
were pledged to reform of Parliament. The noble duke admitted that
he could not carry on the Government without it; and he would re.
mind the noble duke that on the first day of the session, in the debate
that took place on the address, he (Earl Grey) gave his decided opinion
that a reform of Parliament was indispensably necessary. The noble
duke could not forget it, because it drew from him that astonishing,
astounding declaration that produced an effect on the country far be-
yond any that was ever produced by the declaration of any mi-
nistry. Parliamentary reform was the first principle of his political life ;
he had never abandoned it, and he was now convinced it was indispensa-
ble,and was prepared to support it by every constitutional means. Minis.
ters were also pledged to economy. and in this it was allegk that they
had not fulfilled the expectations they had held out. They had to meet