Star.
London, England, 1815-06-09 00:00:00

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the Catholics t;o:tnjoy Meet of the acetify franc*.
His own opinion was, that in a final settlement Via
the Catholics (the practicability of which he doubted)
every thing may be given them but the Parliament,
the State, and the Chunahis and he conceived it may
be done without their suffering any.thiug in,thtir po-
litical.or even in their civil capacities. But from the
Noble Lord's view of the subject, and in the absence
of necessary securities, he could not think the going
into a Committee was a fit wteasure for their Lord-
ships to adopt.. He quoted the resolutions of the
Catholic Prelates on tte accession of the late Bill on
the subject, io support of what he advanced. and he
therefore thought that until the Catholic Prelates
should change their opinions, all such securities as
had been propoced must be illusory. Referring to
what the Nol;le Ll.rd had said on the topic of the
Union, he justified the conduct of the Government
on that occasion ; averred that no provision had been
mide ::s to the removal, of the Catholic disquarfica-
ti. n$ ; but simply an assurance given dust their
claims &mold be tally and candidly discussed in an
Imperial Patliament, whch it was amply on record.
h.d been most fully and ably, as well as repeatedly
Coe, contending that the Act of 1793 contained a
good and favourable settlement for the Catholics, and
that the Union was a most advantageous measure for
Itelond. The Noble Eall concluded by expressing
his dimwit from the motion.
L. id • DE PUNSTANVILLE spoke shortly
against the motion.
Lord GRENVIL LE observed, his sentiments on
th's elaat question were ton well known to render it
necessary for him to trouble their Lordships at any
length He approved of what fell from his Noble
Friend as to 1.4 provosiiion having no connection
with the Resolutions alluded to ; and with him, he
distinctly disclaimed every sort of influence derivable
from a principle of external dictation. Nothing,
therefore, should induce him to vote for the Resolu-
tions ,as they now stood ; but it he voted for the
question, it should only be because he believed that
the subject deserved the maturest deliberation, There
never was a law framed with more liberality than that
of 1703 ; but without wishing to depreciate that law,
he must say that aircurostantes had since materially
altered its relations. Could it be consistent that the
Roman Catholics of Ireland and those of England
should stand in a different situation respecting quali-
fications for civil and military offices ? It must be a
subject of perpetual disquietude ; and therefore it
became itoperi4-osly necessary to enter into a delibe-
rate investigation of the question. 'rile consideration
cf the securities was of the utmost consequence, and
whenever it might came pn, he shorAJ meet it with a
mind perfectly unprejudiced. It was rot a point for
consideration thi, day ; but he sliculd be glad to find
that the time .for it was near at hand. More than
this it .vas n.-t necessary for him to say ; but he ea.
treated their Ler/blips to lay out if their minds all
prejudice that iniAht lAm:flee them from that which
Lad been improperly. done (his Lordship aUuded to
the late Resolutions of the Catholics), and only
consottr whether the great body of the Catholic in-
babitdoits of the empire could be rendered more.trees
more happy, and more contented with the Constitu-
tion, whose blessings they might thus. more,Jully en-
joy. As long as they are protected by the Constitu-
tion, it would be their duty to rest satisfied with what
the llw should do fur them; and if he could believe
that four or five millions of people. were determined
not to be satisfied under the results cf legislative
wisdom, he should still say to their Lordships, do
your duty ; at.d in discharging that, you lave every
chins to dig gratitude of your country. On these
grounds, and on these only, be gave his support to
the alotioll.

The Earl of LIVERPOOL felt it not necessary
to eater into any discussion of the subject at this time,
conceiving that another opportunity would be far
more appropriate. But he would ask whether any
benefit could arise from acceding to the motion of
the Noble Lord, of entering immediately into the
consideration of the question ? He did not think it
possible that the House could go into its considera-
tion with any satisfaction at this time. This was not,
in his opinion, a question of inquiry. We knew all
the advantages and disadvantages of the system ; and
no person could say that the House was not fully ap-
prised of it in all its bearings. It would sound a
considerable al irm in the country, it now considered;
and he was not inclined to create an evil without
!claiming what would be the remedy for it. The
/fable Lord who had delivered his opinion in 1801,
had said, than his view of the question was, that he
thought it entirely open to the consideration of Par-
DaMent Whether the Pnion took place or not. If the
inquiry should not end in the way the Noble Lord
wis:!eds it would create disappointment; and he
would sai., that •he conceived the proper course of
psoceeding would be to see the nature and extent of
the Avil that was wished to be removed, and also the
stigma .and extent.of the remedy. The measilte iti-
volie3 une of the! greatest. cousautinnal. questions
that could possibly he agitated. The Noble -Lori
ailmit;edthat the H.•nse ought to: protect Protest-
,aiktisza ; and he would therefore ask, whether it was
al* Cite/012i to inquire whether or_ tic; we should have
a Protestant Parliament ? The opinion veLich he bad
long since forasni ott this subject liad.undagone no
alteration ; and he would ask, whether in a Goveitt-
MOM What the CluVin acts: upon the •responsibility
of Ministers,. it was Possible for the Crown to main.,
tarn that thseernment me; without the whole of the
establishments being Continued as they now exist ? He
only said tbus much to call to their Lordships' minds.
wtiat he considered to be the true state of the ewes!
tion, as it was one which required the fullest exercise'
of the discretion of the House. Respecting the in,
troduction of securities, all he should say was, that
upon the best view he had taken of the subject, he
could never believe that any Committee could execute
their purpoie. From the very nature of the case,
And tin state of the Catholic Church, there never
etiold.be such securities adopted as would be satistac-
timio either party. It was not the question, wite-
tiriaitKe House should new-model the Catholic opt.
niter but'ilietlier the boon demanded by the Catho-
lies eould be acceded to ? :tad he was firmly con-
Vincih.that mak! it as grateful as possible it would
be ' iscO, 4nJ fail in its object. on the wbote,
t;lltimt • e, lie, c. uld ' see no advan;age ‘yhatever in
t
$lOB to kit Piaig4i!teo whit: li the 1/045 Lord it'd
kr M
pld. . i •ELVILLE . • .
• , ' said he should give hi; vote

against going into the. Co*amino. He war one of
t uue who, on a former day, had voted fora Corn-
tnittee on the Petition, because he thought something
satisfactory fright molt from it ; but he had been
disappointed. Yet he was not without some _san-
guine hope that the time might come when both.
Houses of Parliament, as well as the Catholics, might
meet in opinion, but the present WAS not the time for
inquiry. The propossitot going into the Committee
was d6ubdessly to found some legislative measure
upon it'; but be should not agree for one to go the
length proposed by the Noble Lord. We have (said
his Lordship) the opinions of the great body of time
Catholic Prelates, and we find that these have not
changed, and that therefore they would not be satis-
fied with any thing less than complete emancipation.
'Thus the Committee now would be of no benefit
whatever ; as it was impossible at present to found ,
any legislative measure upon it. Yet if the Noble
LAT& would come • forward with any proposition of
the nature alluded to neat Session, he saw no reason
• to withhold his support from it.
The Duke (*SUSSEX, for the same reason as
, he had urged before, said° he would vote for the Com-

minty.
Lord MULGRAVE was of opinion that the most.
reasonable of the Catholics would be satisfied with
what the Committee gotta resolve upon; but it might
not be possible to satisfy those who were unreason-
able. At all events this was a question which it was
impossible to leave in its present state. We had given
large concessions to the Catholics, who were most
incapable of judging of the benefits, while those who
were able to appreciate them, and to influence the
minds of the ignorant, were excluded from the privi-
leges. He could not brine his mind to look on dr
question as one pregnant with danger, or as one
which was to determine whether we were to have a
Catholic or a Protestant Parliament. On these grounds
he should vote for the question.
The Earl'ef HA it ROWBY thought it impossible
for things to iemain on the present footing, but if he
could foresee any beneficial consequences from going
into Committee,. he should certainly vote for it. The
late period of the Session, however, was a material
objection with him against it ; and. if he were a Ca-
tholic, he would rather that the question should be
taken up at any other period than the present.
Lord BORINGDON said a few words expressive
of his belie, that the question might be brought to
decision in the next Session.
The Earl of DONOUGHMORE then 'proposed,
%with a view to meet the wishes of the House, to alter
his motion, and instead of the words immediately
proceed," dtc. to substitute, in the next Session of
Parliament."
The Earl of WESTMORLAND declined pledg-
,ins himself to any opinion for the future by the vote
for the question.
Lord RE U ESD A LE lilt that circunistances might
alter extremely between the present time and that now
proposed for taking the subject into' cen...ideration.—
He couldrt think that any thing satisfactory could
be /Acres.% on this Subject ; and whenever it alight be
brought forward, the Hcitse ought to consider the
interest of the Protestant as well 46 the Catholic peo-
ple. By the Constitution of the country as it now
stands,, the Government is essentially Protestantkand
it must be administered by Protestants. It could nut
'by any possibility be administered by Catholics.—
However small die number might be, yet if any por-
tion of Catholics were Membei a of Parliament, they
might have the most serious influence on the pro-
ceedings of the State. • He never could consent that
the Government of this Protestant country should be
partaken of by Roman Catholic Ministers. The mo-
tion now offered to the House, could have no-refer-
ence to the propositions of the Act of 1793 , and in
short it could have no other object than the admission
of Roman Catholics into all places of rank in the
State. He therefore should not give his assent to
the' motion even as it was now proposed to be worded.
The motion.as last proposed was then put, and a
division took place, when the numbers were,
Contents 3l—Proxies 29-60.—Not Contents
44—Proxies 42-86.
Majority against the Motion 26.—Adjourned. .
HOUSE OP COMMONS.
Mr. PETER MOORE presented an Account of 00'o-end
and Linseed imported into Great Britain within the last three
years.
The Richmond Asylum Bill was read a second time, and oo-
dered to be committed to-morrow.
The Irish Prosecutions Bill was read a third time and poised.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE moved that there be laid before the
House in Account of the number of Causes heard and deter-
mined by the Master of the Rolls in Ireland, front this Ist Ja-
nuary, 1806, to the latest period. Agreed to.
'f he Reports of the Irish Ship Letter, the hish Excise Licence,
and the Paper Hanging Bills, were received, and the Bills or-
dered to be read a third time on Monday.
Sir J. HEWN" f moved for a detailed account of the farness
in law proceedings in Ireland for 41114,5 ed the particulars of the
law charges of the second' Sack's of Excise In Ireland, for the
last four years.—Ordered.
The Report of the Irish Malt Bill was received, and the Bill
ordered to be read a third time to-morrow and engrossed. '1 he
House went into a Conunittee on the Irish Tobacco Acts, and
tire Report was ordered to be received to morrow.
AIENWCITY IN Tilt SIXTICOPOLIS-, • *^. '
Mr. ROSE rose to call tli attention of the House
Ito the state of the mendicity in this metropolis. Gi eat
pains had been taken to ascertain its amount, and
the labours ut Mr. Martin on that subject had fur.
wished most of the intyrmation which it was his in-
tendon to produce. From the researches and state-
alent of that Gentleman. it appeared, that 1.1,28 S
prrsans obtained their living by begging in this me-
uoprlit. Of theie 6000 were adults, and 9288 chil-
dren. home mecllanics who g4ined 40s. a-week sent
their wives and children to beg in the streets. Upon
the whole, they obtained great sums of money. He
should think it a very low rate to calculate their gains
at 3s. a.day. 'fhey lqade much more, but supposing
they only got 3s. a-day, the sum obtained by the adults
amounted to .4€3116,40() a-year. Ihe Inconvenience
which they occasioned CC) the public was notorious.
Having no regolar means of subsistence, if they
failed at anytime to procure usual gains, they
substituted other ways still mote depraved. But even
it they cool)t contrive to subsi..t, .iF was clear that
thatr:cl4l,4seq, cionitemni:d to Ow• swine occupation,
were brOught up in habits of vice and immorality...
Tlniy never sent them to the flee sehohla for inutile-
lion, fen they empfoyed them at their itistrqtnents—.
and their absence would diminish their receipts. He
11144 commended the establishment of free 'schools.
which had proved Itiihly beoeficial. .In • sqiiie in-
stance* children taught at those schools had even re-
furmzd 'their parents. He then described die method

.41

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• . .
Wilted-oh Mr. Martin's plan 40 teliett tM preo-iel
Benevolent persons weresupplied by,bists with tickets,'
which they gave to beggar:instead of money. The
mendicants then carried those tickets to •Mr. Martin.
who took the trouble of inquiring into their real situa-
tion, and then applied what sort of relief he thought
proper. There were other establishments for the as-
sistahce of the peon The Stranger's Friend in par-
ticular' :was admirably constituted. Its mene.ers went
about town to inform themselves respecting the state:
of various paupers, whom modesty prevented from,
begging publicly, and applied relief in cases where
it was really wanted. Io the Refuge for the Destitute,
persons were received whose circumstances entitled
them to assistante and consideration. The Irish Be-
nevolent Society was established chiefly to relieve the
poor Irish, and send them back to their country, and
. had been attendee with considerable effect. Notwith-
standing all these institutions, many evils remained
to be removed. He meant to propose that a Corn
mittce be appointed to consider the state of mendicit y
in this metropolis and its immediate neighbourhood.
The first thing the Committee should do, would he
to ascertain the facts to which he had alluded, and
the next to consider what Meaus could be adopted to
remedy those evils. Where so many great men had
failed, it would be extreme), presumptuous in him to
make any proposal on the subject. But he thought,
that it would not be impossible to provide for the
Mg). paupers (out of the 13,286) w::0 had parochial
establishments in the metropolis. It woull then be
necessary to consider what was to be done with those
from Scotland and Ireland. The former were few
in number, and he would suggest that they should
be sent back to their country, which would provide
for•them and disperse them through their different
parishes. The Irish would create more difficulty, as
they were more numerous, and in Ireland there were
no poor's rates. It might be advisable to establish
an asylum here. The sailors, who were the mist
importunate beggars in the streets, should be made to
live upon their pensions: He concluded by moving,
,1 That a Committee be appointed to consider the
state of Mendicity in this metropolis and 'tie imme-
diate neighbourhood." ,
Mr. HAMMERSLEY thought that an establish.
ment on the same plan as the House of Industry 'in
Dublin might be serviceable in this country. as it
would give an opportunity at once to refer all mendi-
cants to a certain place.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY approved of Mr. Martin's
plan. Of the tickets given to paupers, four out of
five were never brought to the office, as the mendi-
cants dreaded the inquiries which would, be maste.
If that institution were more known and further ex-
tended, he thought it would materially tend to check
and lessen the number of beggars. He alluded to
the soldiers who pretended to have been blinded by
the opthalmia in Egypt, and who exposed tbetneelses
in a disgusting manner in the streets.
Mr. PEEL was doubtful whether it would be
politic to extend an establishment like the House of
Industry in Dublin to this country. It cost 1150,000
a-year, and relief was given to every person that ap-
plied, because there were no poors' rates ; but it he
was to judge of its efficacy from the state of mendi.
city in Dublin, his opinion would be far from favour.
able,' as there WAS uo city in which mendicity pre-
veiled to such a degree as in the Irish capital.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT 'preferred che plan of
work-houses as those in existence at Cork, and other
places, in which a previous examination took place
before admitting paupers. To extend an establish-
ment in which no inquiry was allowed, would merely
tend to extend beggary.
Mr. LOCKHART thought that if mendicants•
were prevented from begging, many of them would
resort to more dangerous practices : they would spread
into the country, would avoid well-regulated towns,
and we should hear of their devastations in places
where the police was less active or well conducted.
He doubted whether all charitable institutions had
not a tendency to create the evil which they were in-
tended to relieve.
After a few words from Mr. Rose, Mr. LOCKHART,
Sir J. SillitlollT, Alderman ATKINs, Sir C. Moats,
and the CHAN:SLUM of the Exerts:our:it, the motion
was agreed to, and•the Committee appointed.
- MAST= 07 Tilt BOMA lx
Mr. PEEL 'brought in a Bill to augment the sa-
lary of the Master of the Rolls in Ireland. Read a
first time, and ordered for a second reading on 'Tues-
day next.
- Serjeant ONS LOW hoped the Right Hon. Gentle-
man would produce an account of the business trans-
acted by the Master of the Rolls before he pressed the
second reading of this Bill.
Mr. PEEL alluded to the motion made by Mr.
Abercrombie in the easily part of the evening on that
subject, and moved for a few additional ACCollati.—
Agierd to. • •

BATUMI:I IST THIS • MAME&
Mr. BARCLAY presented two Petitions apinst
the Thames Bathing Bill ;. the one from the Water-
men that ply upon the Thames, and the other from
the Inhabitants and Householders on the Banks of
the River. He thought that something should` he
done to prevent the indecencies which were now wit-
nessed, and which otherwiie would extend to igreatei•
degree.
Mr. .M. A. TAYLOR had lived for twenty-seven
years on the banks of the Thames, and had never per-
ceived any. acts of indecency. Some time he had not
seen six persons bathing in the course of mrinths.
Were we worse than our ancestors f As a Magis-
trate, he did not recollect that any particular acts of
indecency had come under his knowledge. He' WiS
bred at Westminster, and so far tr • b ire
hrohi-
bited grom bathing, he had often been risprvved for
not learning to swiss. He considered t 6 Bill in
exceedingly just one.
Mr. HARVEY occupied a house near the Thames,
and unless some means were suggested fmr remedy.,
ing the Bros, exhibitions which were cow made every
hour, he must be under the necessity of removing.
. Mr. HORNER wished to knot from the h.m.•
Gentleman (Mr. Barclay) 'Hie could name a day for
hearing the Wa:termen by counsel
Tile ?cations were then brought up 41d read—.
that from the water men complained that the exposing
of naked bodies to
.public v ew, was 11111110 to ilhor
occupation.
:fles CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
asked Mr. W. Wynne across the tame, n.
would (*int to postponing the Committee on the Bill?
Mr. W. WYNNE thought the hen of the leaflet

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