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London, England, 1804-04-20 00:00:00

ORIGINAL LITERATURE AND THe run ARTS.

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PARLIdMENTARr PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORD 6, THURSDAY, APRIL ist,

. -
Maynard took the What oaths ;ad his fat.

o*----ebe Motion of Earl ROSELYN, the third reading of the
Archbilhop of Dublin's Eire Bill was poftpoued until this day
A: mouths.
*►►ESL CAUSE.--RICHARDSONS V. THE UNIVERSITIES

or OXFORD AND CATRARIDGI.
Mr. PROM Ft, on the part of the Appellants, ad-
dread their Lordfhips in nearly the following words:
" My Lords—When I laft had the honour of
addreffing your Lordfhips, I referred to the cafe of
enthorfhip, which gives a right of exclufion for a
number of years. Bnt that I maintained bore no
analogy, as no one could affert that the King was
the anthor of the Bible; it was not the work of his
hands, nor the produaion of his genius; he was no-
thing more than the Conflitutional Superintendent or
Infpeanr for the good of his people. I concluded by
calling to your Lott:nips' attention the great num.
ber of years in which my clients had enjoyed the un
diflurbed poffeffion of the right, for the continued
exereife of which they are now under the neceffity of
appealing to the wifdom, the Mice, and the libera.
lity of this boufe. There now remain but two points
untouched, and I (hall (late as briefly as pollible the
impreffion which they make on my mind. There are,
firtt, the Mica and precife terms of the patents, as
gathered from hiftorical fairs ; and, :oily, the cir.
cumflances of the cafe in the Courts below, and the
right of the Plaintiffs below to come forward in fuch
a form as the law appears to me from my reading
and knowledge of the fubjea. There can be no
doubt but that the work contended for in each cafe
is the fame authorifed Bible, Terhum rule. In January
1604, as the Rev. Thomas Broughton informs us,
in his Hiftorieal Diaionary of Religion, there was a
meeting at Hampton Court, at which the (late of the
then eziffing edition of the Bible was taken into
-conflagration. Rapin's Military alto gives the fame
the. It was then ordered by King James the Firtl,
and given under his fign manual, that a new Tranf-
lation of the Bible fliould be made out, correfted,
and freed from all the errors of the Bibles then ez-
tapt. The moft Learned men of that age were of
courfe engaged in the completion of fo defirable an
objea ; but it was not till the year tfit t, the gth of
Log James, that the work was complete and pub-
Bawd. A copy was pr&nted to the King, with the
Tranllarnr's Addrefs prefixed to it, and that ninon
was afterwards authorifed by Royal Proclamation to
be read by all his Majefty's fubjeas, in all churches,
Jec. throughout the realm. That fame had regularly
been continued to be printed from that period down
to the prefent period, for the information of his Ma-
jetty's fubjeas, with the fame marks of authority
annexed, and he would challenge his Learned
Friends on the other fide to deny the identity of the
work as printed in Scotland or in England.
The words of the Patent granted to the King's
Printer, in Scotland, were to print " Holy Bibles,
Prayers, he." the words of the King's Printer's pa-
tent in England were, to print ss Bibles, New Tene-
ments, Prayers, Ikc." The one was granted in
1785, the other in mg. The words had evidently
She (CDC meaning. or elle why infest the word Prayers
fa the.-/keis flatakt, when it was knoweettnit 'there
Was no Inch thing as a Common Prayer in Scotlansi ?
Na mid foray can amebae the Meeting is different,
nalefelta fuppofes that the fenfe is altered by the in-
littlest of words, naturally and obatoody the fame,
on different pieces of parchment. Front this, my
Lords, 'I conclude that as to the fart there could nut
poffibly be a finders,/ of doubt ; and hoped that your
Lordthips will not be induced to adopt prefumption
without proof, in oppofition to fuch a ltvement of
faits, but that you will authorife, as the King has
buthorifed, a co-exiftence of tight between there dif-
ferent licenfed pedant, to print fuch works for the in-
formation of Les. his Majelly's fobjeas. A cafe has
been put from high authority, for which I (ball al-
ways entertain the higheft ref pea that is. Can
Bibles, authorifed in Ireland, be introduced into
England, or wire verfa I. I do not mean to enter into
the argument of Inch a fuppofed cafe, but merely
to (late in anfwer to it, what were the grounds of the
prefent cafe. The two Patents, Englith and Scots.
were granted fince the Union with Scotland, and I
will &retort maintain that any Bibles printed by
any perfon, regularly autborifeel by the King to
print in any one part of Great Britain, have a tight
to be read by all his Majelly's fubjeas within Great
Britain; and, when his Majefty authorifes the print-
ing and the reading. Purely your Lordthips will not
ftep in between to interdiO the fide, and thereby
render the authority of the King to print and read,
nugatory so all intents and put poles.
It has been argued, that the objeft of the Patent
was to remunerate the individual for a certain tsuß
repokd in him. The fupreme authority of the King
in this inflater. he would maintain,ftood upon higher
and nobler grounds. In matters of invention, of me.
ehanifrn, and fuch like, a remuneration was given to
the individual for his genii's and allidtity. But here
the objea of the Crown was by the heft means poffible
to promote the public good ; and that general in.
formation of the public was moll effeutially promoted
by the file of a cheap, as well as a correa, edition of
the Bible : it was then in the power of every man to
futnifh himfelf with a Bible coned in all its parts,-
and regularly authorifed by the King, without at the
fame time bearing heavy on his pocket.
The privilege was originally given with a view
alto to prevent firange: or foreigners from invading
the ditty of the King as the Supreme Magiftrate of
the people of this Country. What was the amount
of the argument in the Cafe of the Univerfity and
the Bookiellen mentioned in r,sinner 233 ? The Uni-
•erfines there (Iruggled for a right of ezelufion ; the
words of their patent were quoted, which were" m-
eet d ox.nmeolict Like: sea pr<5111;91." From this it
wa. argued, that an exclufise light was veiled in the
Univerfity to print, and confoluently to fell, as the
fellirg mull be the natural rehilt of the printing, all
manner of Books not prohibited. Mr. Holt, however,
on the part of the Booksellers. argued with very great
prerptiety. I think, with fiibmilTion to year Lordlhips,
that thole learned Pet of Printers and Bookfellers
were authorlad by the terms of their patent to print
books of Inch a deferiptiom but they had no autho-
rity whatever to preclude other B ,okfellers from a
fimilar line of authorifed publications in any part of
tic kingdoen.
The LORD CHANCELLOR athed the Learned

Connfel if he meant to go fo far as to fay, that the
King's Printer in Ireland bad a right to dream. in
England ; or, on the tither hand-, that the King's
Printer in England-had a right to fell in 'Mated now?
Mr. PLOMllt—Citrtainly fo, my Lords.. •
The LORD CHANCELLOR then pnt the eon-
vette of the cafe--Can-the King's Printer in Ireland,
by virtue of bis patent, print in England the fame
defcriptinn of Books ?
Mr. PLOMElL—Certainly not, my Lords. There
he would find himfell prohibited. The printing, I
conceive, mull be within the particular diltria where
it is authorifed to be done, but the (ale may extend
all over the United Kingdom, in order that all his
Majelly's fubjeas may read filch coned and autho-
riled works. The King may authorife the printing
of Bibles by one perfon at Hertford, by another in
London, and another in'the County of Surrey, or
may authorife one in every County in England ; he
may multiply and extend them mevery parith or every
llreet, if he thinks fit. But all defcriptions of people
may read them, and confequently they have a right to
be fold every where. The King cannot fay you (hall
not remove the Bible, you (hall bring it out of one
fired into another, or that what is lawful to be fold at
Cornhill, it (hall be unlawful to fell in Fleet.fireet,
though he has a right to appoint a printer, who alone
(hall be authorifed to perform that office within a
certain dillria, bccaufc there is then a perfon who is
ollenfible for the code& iffue of Inch works within
that dillria. But the King cannot fay to his fubjw'ts
yon (tall buy your Bibles at this (hop, and this tlmp
only. No, my Lords, every oqe of his Majelly's fub-
jefte may legally fell a properly authenticated Bible
in any part of his Majelly's dominions, except with
the confederation of the exclufive franchifes which
are granted to particular places ; and it is not at-
tempted to be laid on the other fide that my clients,
as citizens and freemen of the city of London, are not
aothorifed to fell or carry on trade in the city.
The cafe on which the Plaintiffs below bad relied
principally, was one which went only to prevent the
introdutftion of foreign Books. Be it fo, my Lords,
we do not quarrel with that ; we only want to pre-
vent a monopoly of fate in an article, which it is ne•
ceffary that all his Majetty's fubjeas fhould be Cup-
plied with, fo as to leave an open competition in the
market for the fale of one and the fame thing, though
authorifed to be printed by different perfons, his
Majefty's fubjeas.
He would now come to a point on which he thought
he could, if poffible, tea with greater confidence
than many of the preceding arguments which he had
urged, namely, the circumllances in which the Plain-
tiffs below came before the Court. They had affected
their right exclufively to print and fell by virtue of
the duty which was annexed to the office of King's
Printer. They were not the King's Printers ; they had
no fuch duty to perform. Betides that, my Lords, in
my humble npininn, it is not competent to the Univer-
fity, to the King's Printer, or to any other licenfed per•
fon, to bring an adion, or lay an information again(
the perfon who infringes on their fuppoled privilege.
ao It appears to me to be the duty of his Mali'efty's At •
torney General to file an information m •in fuch
a cafe, or elle a common informer may odge an in-
formation for the recovery of a certain penalty. ac-
cording to the nature of the cafe. I will.put the
queflion fairly to your ImrtMlips, and leave the dad-
lion to your own difcretion—Can the Univerfity, tan
any others in a fimilar predicament, can any perfon
who is barely licenfed to do or carry on any particular
bufinefs, can he in his own right legally prevent ano-
ther from doing the fame thing ? A man may be
licenfed to walk in Hyde Park, for inflAnci, can it
be foppofed that he is thereby authorifed to prevent
any one elfe from walking in it ?
Lord E LLLLL °ammo, (aid, that when the Learned
Conrail took fo great a (cope of argument, be fhonld
recollea, that there was fetch a thing as an sedative
right of Common, by which a certain number of per-
fons can put in their cattle to feed, and can turn out
thole of other people.
Mr. noun—Certainty, my Lord; the obferva-
tion is extremely jai. But with great deference I '
than fubmit, that this is not a cafe of property, bat
a cafe of licence merely ; and in fuch cafes, I believe,
it is not competent to every licenfed perfon to bring
his anion againli another perfon who may or may
not be equally licenfed. A man who is licenfed to
fell beer, for inllance, cannot bring his aCion againli
another for felling beer without a licence, though he
may underfelt him, and injure him in the profits of
his trade. If that were the cafe, every licenfed pub-
lican in the neighbourhood might bring a diffident
affirm, whereby the man waddle ruined. No, my
Lords, a common informer may lodge an informa-
tion, and recover a certain penalty, and no more.—
' But this is not the prefent cafe, my Lords—botlapar-
tics are equally licenfed, and there is no law by which
any penalties can attach to either.
The Learned Counfel then examined minutely into
the words of the injunftion, the patent to the Uni-
verfity dillinaly from that of the King's Printer,
who, he contended, was not entitled if he gave away
his own right, to veil a prohibition in the hands
of another, as that power lay only with the Mag.
—On the other hand, he contended, that if the
Univerfity had a legal authority for nfing the King's
printer'. name, they had not made ufe of it, and that
would in itfelf be fufficient to throw themout of Cond.
But he denied the exiftence of fuch a right. The
proceeding being taken up individually, and not by
the Attorney General, (hewed the parties that there
was no public ground for them to fiend on. Then,
as an individual or private cafe, they could not fay
that they had an exclutive right to injure the public,
or that they had any right to encroach upon the
King's out hot it y. It had formerly been argued that
this would reduce the profits of the Univeritty. To
this he anfwerrd by Caring what had been laid on
a former occation" So much the better for the pub-
lic." If they laid that their charter gave them an
exciutive right to fell in England, he would prove
that the King's printer had alfo a right. If they
maintained that his interelt was joined with theirs,
why not make him also a tarty in the cafe? He aim•
logged to their Lordthips for having taken_ up In
much of their time , and here doled the cafe on the
part of the appellants.

The fortherhealing was pnflpnned to Wednefday
nest, when Mr. Ea ssia s will be heArd for the Appel.
_ . _ _

lams. His Royal Highiseis the Duke of Cum ''''''''
who has paid uncommon attention to the Pleadings,
was in his place ou slits and all the preceding days
of heating.

1101101 VOL TAPIRS IttLITING TO HOSTILItTITS IN

INDIA.
The Earl of CARLISLE Rated, that as the Rate
of the country, as con/let:led with the cortdua of Mi
taus, mutt, at no very diftant day, be brought un-
der their Lordlhipe vonfideration' he would not, at
prefent, trefpafs on their time by any obfervations
on that fubjea. He role merely to make a motion
for certain papers, to the produaion of which he did
not apprehend Minifters could oppofe any reafonable
olojeftions. He thould therefore move, without any
further preface,
" That an humble Addrefi, be preknted to his Majefty, pray-
ing that be ntty give orders that the dates of all difpatches trent-
mined either by land oe fee, by dovemment to India, previous
to his Majefty's Metlitge of the Loth of March, tiloy, be hid on
the table for the information of their Lordihips ; and the dates
alto when they were received by the pertain to whom they were
feverally addretred
" Thar the dates of,tbe dlfpatehes tranftnitted between that
period and the commencement of hottilities, together with the
dates of the receipt of lick to India, be alfo laid on the table."
Lord HAWKESBURY thought it his duty to re-
fill the motion of the Noble Earl, not that there
could be 'toy great objeaion to grant the informa-
tion he feemed anxious to obtain, but that it was con-1
trary to all precedent, and the conftaut prattice of
the Executive Government. He would not deny but':
many occafions may arife, on which it would be in-
cumbent on Minifters to accede to propofitions for
the produaion of public documents. Ua all quef
tions relating to the public Revenue, to the applica-
tion
of the expenditure of that Revenue, or to the
magnitude anclidifpofal of the Public Face, there it
was competent for any Noble Lord to move for fuch,
papers as tended to explain them, and it would be
indecorous in Miniflers to oppofe the produaion of
them. But where no ground of acculition had been
laid down, and where the motives fur producing
them were only to be difcovered in vague and un-
certain rumour, he thought it neither P.irliamenury
nor prudent to trouble his Majefty with an iddrefs
for fuch pus.-pores; he would therefore give his di!.
fent to the motion of the Noble Earl. _

l'he Earl of CARLISLE could not aciee with
the Noble Secretary of State as to the pi inciplc which
he had laid out, that Minifters were to communicate
or withhold information, at their difcretion, on all
public occafions, except fuch as arofe out of mat-
ters that were fairly before Parliament. They, the
hereditary Council of his Welty, hid a right
to demand information, whenever the interefls of
either the Sovereign or the State were concerned ;
and it was the duty of Minifters to communicate it,
except the publicity of it might operate to the dif.
advantage of the public fervice. He would even
maintain, in oppofition to the Noble Lord, that pub-
lic rumour may be fometimes a good ground for re-
quiring information. He allied, was it not notorious,
that in all the circles, from the highefi to the loweft
in this country, it was circulated, and generally be.
lieved, that Minifters bad been extremely remifs in
conveying intelligence to India of approaching In&
Wide& It was eafily to be afcertained, fo negli-
gent had they been in this refpeit, that information
of the war had been received from England, by Pri.
vats. Merchants in India /modem lays before the
difpatches of Government arrived there. To what
but this negligence. on the pan of Government, was
the efeape of the French !quadrats at Pondicherry
,owing t Admiral Lltattis, with an hieffor hireel was
at anchor within the Britifh fleet under the dommand
of Admiral Rainier, and from tome information he
had received, he bad cut his cables, and was, per-
haps, at this very moment. engaged in aaive and
fuccefsful hoailities againft Tome of the mat valua-
ble of our fettlements in that pan of the world.—
Surely if the Euglifh Admiral had been apprifed of
the probability, mach left the attual commencement
of a war, he would, as it would have been his duty to
have done, detained the whole of the French fqoa
dron. The public had a right to be fatisfied on this
point, and. therefore, unlefs Miniflers produced force
better arguments againa his motion, he mull perfe-
sere in it.

Lord HAWKESBURY mtsß Rill perfift in op-
pofing the motion : however, he had no hefitation in
(eying, that, pending the negociatiocind previous
to his Majefty's Melage, difpatches been fent to.
India with all poffible celerity, and y every means
of communication, to apprize our naval and military
commanders there, of the (late of it, and the pro-
bable refamption of hoftilities. His Majelly's
Go-
vcrnment, at leaft that department of it, had alfo
in a fubfequent period of the negociation, made rani-
lar communication ; and when hoffilities aauelly
coninzencid, they tranfmitted intelligence cal it, by
all the means in their power, to India.
Lord SPENCER expreffed much furprize at the
determination of Minifters to oppore the motion of
his Noble Friend. They bad, if he was well inform-
ed, and he drew his information from a fource which,
though not official, was, notwithilanding, in his
opinion, too authentic to be scpiellioned, been guilty
of unpardonable neglea in not conveying the earlitft
intelligence of the war to our ferflements in India.
The official difpatches were traufasitted by a frigate
who bid. to fee a convoy, which was put under her
proteaion„ fate into Lifbon; by which means an una.
voidable delay of at leaft z 6 or 18 days was produc-
cd. if be would credit authority he had no reafon
to doubt. Admiral Rainier was not apprized, on the
nth of Auguft, of what had taken place in Europe
on the loth of March, full five mon*abefore. Sup-
pore the circumilances of the two fleets had been
different, and that Admiral Rainier, with an inferior
force, had been anchored infide the French fquadron,
could any one imagine that Admiral Linois, on the
lath of Auguft, on the night of which he flipped his
cables, would have hefitated on the capture of the
Britith fquadron ? There was certainly a great blame
imputable to Come quartcr, and it was the duty of
the Houle to examine it thoroughly.
Lord HOBART oppofed the motion, and main
. . . . .

tamed that there had bcen no negligence on the part
of Minitters. The frigate which carried out the
difpatches, failed direet for India, and made an

extraordinary quick patfage. Our Commanders there
bad timely notice of the (late of ; ffairs in Europe,
and infiruaions for their conJuft in cafe of the
refumption of hoßilities. As to the efcape i t Admi.
tal !Anni' fquadron, he was lure no blame c old
attach either to the Executive Government, or to
his Majeay's Commander in thole lea► upon that
account. In faa, Admiral Rainier was apprifed of
the probability of the recommen?emeot of the wars
when the French fqoadron arrived at Pondicherry,
and it was adually under confideration to detain

Admiral Limit, when he was Co fortunate as to,

make his efcape.
Earl CARNARVON faid, that after theadmiffions
which bad been made on the fubjed, he could not

figure the molt diftant fernblance to a reafon for re-
futing to aequitlce in the prefent motion. It had
been feen and admitted that the fleet of the enerhy,

while within the power of our fquadron, had been
allowed to efcape for want of the neeeffary informa-
tion to warrant our Admiral in detaining it. That
the French Admiral. in confequence, muff have been
poffeffed of fuperior information. was obvious.—
What would have been the eonfequence had the
enemy's fleet been fuperior in force ? Not only our
fquadron there, but all our poffeffions, mull have
fallen into the hands of the enemy. As it was, in
what fituation were we placed ? lnconfequence of

this negled on the part of our Government the
enemy were (Imager to the extent of this Rea thaw
they otherwife would have been. They were left at
full liberty to annoy our trade, and to attack the •
molt defencelefi of our poireffions, all of which, bet
for this piece of milionduft, would have been fecure.
In this fituation, he could not fee on what ground
the prefent motion could be refilled. The Noble Se-
cretary of State (Lord Hobart) had alluded to in-
formation which Admiral Rainier po&ifed, but he
had not faid that the information came from Go.
vernment..

Lord HOBART explained that that was his
meaning.
Lord HARROWBY declared, that on the firlk
view of the matter he was inclined to think the mo-
tion not ftifficiently warranted. From the grounds.
however, which had fence been Rated in fupport of
it, lie could not help giving it his decided fupport.
The Houfe then divided on Lord Carlifle's motion.

Contents for the Amendment : I Non-Conteins againft it
Pert - - 27. I Peal - 35
• 4 I Pruurs - - 5
—3f
—3O
Being a majority of one in favour of Earl Carlilic's
motion. The Non-contents were as follow :

ProLiu -

Duke of Bedford Earl of Bedsore:lb
Duke of Moamar" Earl of Upper Dairy
Marquis of Stafford Earl of Darnley
Marquis of Headset Earl of Aboyne
Earl of Derby Earl of Ormond
Earl of Carlifle Lord Woman Lowthag
Earl Fitawillians Lord King
Earl of Mike . Lord listromby

Earl Cowper
Earl Spencer
Earl Talbot

Raft Fort etas*

itTri norrieiaoa
Lard D.
Lord Grenville

!Arll-I.llTall

Earl of Cimarron
Ead of Romney

tent Mita

BILL TO - HIS WAVITT TO 11CCtPT TRIt BM.

TIM OF TUX 111.11 H UILITI4

Lord HOBART teased, previous to the fecon4
reading of the Bill, that his Majeßeis Meffage on
the loyal and fpirited offers of the Irifh
.

lbould.ba read.

His Lordthip declared. that he prefumed there
would be no difference of opinion in that Houfe;
with relive& to the principle which gave rife to the
prefent Bill. and which, carried to a further extent,
would fauflion the policy of oceafional interchanges
of the Militia of the two countries. But that was
not the quettion now before them. The prudence or
neectfioy of fuch reciprocity was not now to be del.
cuffed ; but as it appeared on the face of the Bill
before the Houle, they were called upon merely to
determine, whether they would or would not enable
his Majray to avail himfelf of the fpirited offers
that had been made to him from motives of loyalty
to his pert-tin, and of kindnefs and attachment to the
welfare and intcrens of this part of the empire. As
he prefumed there could be no difference of fenti-
rnent on that point, however there may be on others,
he would no longer detain their Lordthips, but move
that the Bill be read a fecond time.
Lord BORINGDON felt hirofelf under the no-
ceffity of oppufing the fecond reading of the Bill,
upon many confederations, but principally two,
which in his mind were deciave againn the meefure.
Ore u.s,, that it would tend, in fome meafure, to
fubvert the principles upon which the Militia force
was originally eltablifhed ; and the other was, that
it was withdrawing a force. which. however inion-
fiderable in itfelt was neceffary for the defence of
Ireland, and could afford no material addition to the
force already colleted for the defence of Great Bri-
tain. His Lordthip was no enemy to the principle,
that all parts of the United Kingdom fhould affil!
each other reciprocally, but he would rather fee that
difpofition modelled by other meefores than a mere
interchange of their *viral Militia forces. He witted
really to fee the principles of the Union fairly said
upon.—lt was now four years fince that great poli-
tical change had been effeßed, and what, he would
alit, had the Government done for Ireland If he
could argue from what had palled, when he eonfi-
deted the eorrefpondence that had paffed between la
Noble Peer of that Houle (he alluded to Lord Re-
defdale and the Earl of Fingal), and that that Noble
Lord Rill-remained in a high jfficialfituation in that
country. be was jutlified in entertaining Come doubts
of the intentions of Miniflers towards it. U 'Mini-
f ters approved of the conchs& of that Nofillirliord.
why not declare fo ? If they did not, it was incum-
bent on them to difavow the opinions he had pro-
mitigated, and to recall him. But this, however de-
firable in point of jullice or of policy, be defpaired
of feeing aceomplifhed. when he recolleded, that
the great vital and efrential principle upon which the
prefent Minitlers held their official fituationv was op-
polition to the only meafure that could give fatisfac-
tion or permanent tranquillity to Irelana..

The 'Duke of CUMIIERLAND, and the Mar-
qu;, of HEADFORT Mie at the fame time, but the
later, though c3iled upon by the Chancellor, gave
way to

His ROYAL H:GHNESS, who Paid, that he
would occupy but a very tmall portion of their Lord-
thips' time. He role for ihe purpofe of expelling
his approbation of the Bill, es tending to ellablills
that principle, which he hoped to fee, within a thort
time, extended much further. It was his anxious
with, that the two countries, which had but one
common intereß, fhould, whenever it was neceffarYs
interchange their Mihtias. Since they were become
one United Kingdom by law, he mated that they
..could not be feparate either in fentiment or praetice.
He thought no more ditlinaion, in any refpea what-
ever, thould exiii between them, than between any
two neighbouring counties of Great Britain; and,
therefore, as this rneafure would rend to ettablifh
that c.:diality and acquaintance between them, that

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