Star.
London, England, 1831-02-22 00:00:00

1

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e ixsais demanded the immediate consideration of Parliament,
with a sew to granting relief.
Mr. R. DOUGLAS seconded the motion. The distress of the West
Indies was produced by legislation, and by legislation alone could Itbe
remedied. The resolution merely pledged the House to apply a re.
;necly to the distresses of the West Indies. The alteration in the
timber duties would greatly injure the trade of the Canadas. He
hoped, when the budget was brought before the House, his Noble
Friend would be prepared with a specific resolution for the relief of the
West Indies. By admitting sugar, the produce of slave labour, from
hr Brazils. at the preseut rate of duty, the trade of the West Indies
nld be der ply injured, if not annihilated.
The questi in being put from the cloth,
Mr. P. THOMSON expressed his surprise at the mode in which
;be noble lord had introduced his motion, which. if acceded to, would
stop the supplies. The Board of Trade had shown the utmost disposi-
tion to inquire into the subject, and afford relief if possible. He thought
the noble lord should rather move for a committee than propose a mo.
Lion, which, if acceded to, would have the effect of stopping the sup-
plies. Goveatment oily refused to reduce the duty on sugar because the
state of the revenue did not permit it. He was anxious that the inter-
est of the West Indies, and of all his Majesty's subjects should be
protected ; but he could not support the interest of any one portion of his
subjects by the sacrifice of the rest. When he last year voted for the re-
duction of the sugar duty, it was because no other taxes which he should
prefer were reduced ; that was not the case at present. His noble friend
had but a small surplus, and he would put it to the people of England
whether the repeal of the duty on coals and candles was not better for
the people than a reduction in the sugar duty, though he hoped it would
soon be possible to lower the sugar duty also. At the same time he
knew the reduction of duty would not benefit the West Indies.
The West Indies produced one-fourth more sugar than was con-
sumed in this country, of course the price here must be regulated by
the price of the surplus produce in the markets of the world. If the
demand was increased it would give a stimulus to the production of
foreign sugar, that in a few years would make the state of the West
Indies worse than at present ; for it was not to be supposed that this
country would give the West Indies an absolute monopoly. He was
grieved to say that no reduction of duty possible would benefit the
West Indies, though it would benefit theconsumer. The West Indies
had submitted to Government the very modest proposal of giving
them a bounty of :Ss. 3d. per cwt. on all sugar imported from the West
Indies and exported,which would amount to 1,220,0001.t0 be paid to the
West Indies. When his hon. friend( Mr.K. Douglas) stated the West Indies
suffered to that amount by the regulations of the colonies, he stated
that the West Indies lost 500,0001. by having their freights confined to
British vessels. If that were the case, how was it that so many British
vessels were employed in the Brazil trade, where they had no such pro-
tection ? (Htar, hear.) It was, he would admit, a grievance that the
West Indies were obliged to take their lumber from Canada Instead of
the United States ; but it was intended to afford them relief on that
point, and it might be their intent not to become dependent on the
United States. His honourable friend had a strong point, when he
claimed the admission of rum at a lower duty; but the house
had experience of the disposition of members on that question last
year, and he thought it would not be advisable to press it at present.
The foreign slave trade was, no doubt, injurious to the West Indies,
and every possible effort should be made to extinguish it. To that
result alone could he direct his hon. friend for relief. He lamented
his hon. friend's endeavours to put forward the West Indian Inte-
rests in a manner calculated to excite a stronger feeling than already
existed against the conduct of the planters. It was in the power of
the people of this country to come to the bar and ask the house
how long they would buffer their resolutions of HIV to be a dead
letter? How long they would allow the West Indians to refuse
obedience to the resolutions of Parliament, and the orders of Go-
vernment ?
Mr. IL DAVIS said the West India interest was deeply depressed,
and well deserved the consideration of the house. Thcre was another
question in which his constituents were considerably interested, and he
would take that opportunity of asking the noble lord whether he meant
to impose a duty on tobacco grown in Ireland.
Mr. ROBINSON said he was surprised to hear the Vice President
of the Board of Trade argue that a reduction of duty on sugar would
not benefit the 'tVest Indies ; it would greatly increase the consumption
in this country, and that would advance the price in the markets of the
world, and in that way benefit the West Indies. The reason that Bri-
tish ships were employed in bringing home sugar from the Brazils wax,
that they took cargoes out and were willing to bring freights home at
any price. (Hear.)
Lord ALTIIORP said that he was convinced that the question de.
mended the serious attention of the house, and had the noble lord brought
forward his motion for a select committee he (Lord Althorp) would have
been ready to have lent hint every support. No man was more desir.
oua to procure relief to the West India proprietors than his lordship, if
he could see any measure which could be adopted for that purpose, con-
sistent with the other interests of the country. His lordship did not
think that a reduction of the duty on sugar would in any way afford that
relief. The noble lord had adopted quite a different course from what
was generally done when any tax was proposed to be taken off, to name
some other by which it could be replaced ; but he had proposed his re-
duction without any suggestion of that description. His Majesty's
government had sedulously applied themselves to ascertain what
taxes were most fitting to be removed for the benefit of the country, and
he appealed to the house whether or not the duties which they fixed
upon to be taken off from coals and candle were not more beneficial than
a reduction of the duty on sugar would be to the country generally.
His Lordship would be happy to make any alteration for the benefit of
the West Indian proprietors, which would not be injurious to the other
interests of the country. e was satisfied that a reduction of the duty
on rum would be attended with injurious consequences. He was aware
of the objection which would be made to the raising of tobacco in Ire-
land; but he had intended to repeal a portion of the duty on tobacco
in this country, which would have been a relief to the people of
Ireland.

Mr. HUME was of opinion that the question was very fit to come
before a committee, were it only on account of the statement that of a
revenue, which was raised from the West Indian produce, amounting
to upwards of 73,0001. upwards of 60,0001 was expended in the collec-
tion of that revenue. The hon. member thought that the system of the
policy connected with the West Indies ought to be revised. He did not
consider it of any advantage to the West India proprietors that East In-
dia sugar should be prohibited. If a fresh arrangement was entered
into, the East India sugar might be admitted without detriment to the
West Indian interest; and the bad feeling that at present existed be-
tween the two interests would be consequently extinguished.
Mr. C. GRANT said, that he was ready to adopt to the full the sen-
timents of the noble lord who h: d brought forward the amendment, but
he regretted that it should have been brought forward to oppose the mo-
tion of the noble Chancellor of the Exchequer.
Whs. BERNAL said, that the interest of the West India proprietors
hid been much injured and neglected. He regretted that his noble friend
who had brought forward the amendment, had not confined himself to the
distress in the West Indies, and had not tried to enforce a pledge from
(aevernment to any specific measure. The hon. member alluded with
some warmth to the threat which had been held out by the right hon.
Vice. President of the Board of Trade, the hon. member for Dover, if the
West India interest were determined to oppose the Government. The
amendment proposed was not confined to the reduction of the duty on
sugar, that was seeking for relief to the general distress in the West
Indies. The Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer admitted the exist-
ence of that distress, and professed himself ready to afford relief if he
could devise the means how to do so. lie (Mr. Banal) would point
out one obstacle that lay in the way of the West Indian interest, and
which might be removed, namely, the law that prohibited the use of
sugar or molasses in distillation. It was impossible thus to consider
the interests of the colonies apart from those of the mother country ;
for the two interests were inseparable, and where the one interest was
oppressed it must be a load upon the welfare of the other. It would
be useless to refer the question to a Select Committee, as they would
have a repetition of old evidence of which they were already fully in
possession. The Hon. Mother regretted to hear the Hon. Vice.
president now declare that a reduction of the duty on sugar would be no
remedy for the distress of the West India proprietors, when he had often
heard him (the Honourable Vice.Presideat) declate that a reduction of
taxation on an article would cause an accession of consumption.—( Hear.)
It would be of great importance to the West India interests that &mea-
sure of improvement should be tried, when both the Noble Chancellor
of the Exchequer and the Hon. Vice-President admitted that the detail
of the distress was not exaggerated. The hon. member suggested seve-
ral arrangements that might be attended to in future fez the benefit of
the colonies, by making reservations for them in treaties with foreign
powers. The honourable member considered it very unfair in the
government to refuse to lend their assistance toward affording them
relief.
Mr. WARBURTON said that the distress of the West India pro-
ptietors would be much relieved by a reduction of duties on the articles
of West Indian production by causing an additional consumption. He
regretted that the question regarding the growth of tobacco in Ireland,
was not to be brought forward this Session. There were already NO
acres in cultivation in Ireland, and there was notelling_how many mew
in addition might be put Into cultivation next year. The hon. menshs
ould trice all early opportunity to bring forward a measure to all the
attention of the House to the subject.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM could assure the house that the distress st
the West India proprietors had not escaped the attention of his MS.
jetty's Ministers, but they had been unable to achieve any remedy in,
their relief. The hon. Baronet was well acquainted with the nature of
amendments such as the present, as he bad often of late had occasion
to move them himself ; although, perhaps, it was not meant entirely
t. obstruct the passing of the previous motion, he could understand
it to be an indirect censure passed upon the conduct of his Majesty's
Govesnmeto. The Ministers had, with an anxious view towards the
general benefit of the country, in the exercise of their judgment, taken
off what appeared to them the most desirable duties to be removed,those
on coals and candles, and if the house were of opinion that his Majesty's
Ministers had, in so doing, acted properly, they would sustain the mi-
Miters in their measures, if not, they could support the opposition, and
Leave the ministers in the minority on the motion of the Noble Chan.
cello!, of the Exchequer. He (Sir Jas. Graham) could assure the house
that they were not desirous to remain one moment longer in OiaCe if they

' ever lost the confidence of the country, and were not sustained in a el- i
tuition to carry on the business capable to preserve with the strict. •
at inviolability public faith and public credit, which he held to be
paramount consideration whit all countries.
Sir ROBERT PEEL considered that the interests of the colonies
and the mother country were the same—they must rise and fall together
He deprecated the view that bad been taken by the right hon. the vice-
president of the Board of Trade, that the house should be threatened
from proceeding in soy measure by the clamour of the people of Eng-
land being raised against them, relating to the strong feeling that ex-
isted in the country against the slave question. He (Sir It. Peel) could
tell the hon. vice-president that the best way to improve the condition of
the slaves would be to improve the condition of the West India proprie.
tow. The hon. baronet had thought his wide friend had acted wisely
in bringing the distress existing in the West Indies before the house,
before the budget was determined finally ; but he regretted that a
p se
reduction of the duty on sugar had been required, as, in thepresent
state of the budget, and as the noble chancellor stood plc , it
would be impossible to spare anyportion of the revenue. e was
happy to bear that the ho baronet opposite possessed so
proper a notion of the importance of the preservation of public faith.
He would be desirous to persuade his noble friend to withdraw his
amendment.
Mr. SYKES said, that if any measures were adopted that would in-
crease the production of West India produce, and they were confined to
a stationary slave population, that such an increase of production could
only be accomplished by the oppression of the labourers.
Mr. HUNT. said that the honourable baronet opposite had taxed us
with want of faith, and another honourable baronet (Sir It. Peel) had
argued how important it was to preserve the national faith to the public
creditor. He (Mr. Hunt) could tell him that they were desirous tokeep
national faith, and that the way which they wished to be enabled to ac-
complish it was by having their national burdens removed—by having
salaries lessened, and expenses retrenched. The honourable member
then read an extract of the West India revenue, which he stated at
75,0001. and the expense of collecting it and incidentals at 68,0001. leav-
ing only a surplus of 7,0001. that went to the Treasury. The honour.
able member thought that this called for inquiry, to see if the expense
could not be lessened. He, however, gave ministers credit for what
they bad done—they had taken the taxes off candle, coals, and a por-
tion of that from newspapers so that they had given us light, warmth,
and knowledge ; and he hoped that all his liberal friends would vote
with the ministers as he intended to do, because it was so near the
month of March. _ .

I;rdAI:II46RP, in answer to a question from a member, whose
name we could not learn, stated, as we understood, for his lordship
spoke very low, that a large contract for arms had been supplied to
France.
Sir G. CLERK said, before the supply was gone io to that the amount
of the estimates for the year ought to have been laid before the house.
He objected to the reductions of the duties that had been made, as it
would leave so small a surplus that there would be no prospect of al-
lowing any to be applied for the reduction of the debt that so heavily
pressed upon the country.
Lord ALTHORP said a few words in explanation to the effect that
he expected that the reduction of duty on beer and other taxes would
increase the revenue.

Mr. GOULBURN said that his Noble Friend would by experience
find himself deceived in that anticipation.
Mr. BRISCOE said he would oppose any additional expenditure
on the army of the country, as there was no occasion for the forces
being increased; and he reminded the Ministry of their pledges to the
country for retrenchment. He asked how could there be a reduction
of the burthena which bowed down the people to the earth, without
a reduction of the overgrown establishments, beginning by the army,
especially now that the vestion of a property tax appeared wholly
abandoned ? The Noble Lord had himself last year concurred in the
opinion that the army should be then reduced by 5,000 men. Under
these circumstances he (Mt. Briscoe) would: vote against the present

The Chairman then left the Chair, and the House went into a Cam.
mittee of Supply, Sir Alexander Grant in the Chair.
Mr. IVYNN said that he regretted that it should fall to his lot
to have to propose, instead of a reduction, an increase, but it was not
inconsistent with the declarations of his noble friend, in 1330, that he
should in 1831, approve of on increased military establishment. The
reason fur that increase was not any view of intervention in foreign
affairs. When the state of England, and he might add of Ireland, at
the appointment of the present ministers was considered, he should not
be called upon by many to prove why an increased force was numenny.
—He should be glad to hear that the necessity of the increase was ally a
temporary one, and that before the end of the year a diminution would
take place ; but that must depend on future events. The duty of minis.
tors was to look to present circumstances. 1 t bad been already stated, that
the increase involved no increase of patronage. Many had wished that the
augmentation abeuld have taken taken place by the embodying of veterans.
But, besides the establishment being less effective, it would, from the
veterans being entitled to an increase of pension for every month that
they served, and other circumstances, have been much more expensive.
The effectives last year amounted to 81,600 men. He should propose
that they amount this year to 88,496, being an increase of 6,896 men.
The additional men were only added to the existing regiments ; noother
,expense but that of the levy.money had been incurred, and .he increase
would not add to the pensions. The expence incurred by augmentation
of force was, in round numbers, 200,0001. being 136,000 L for the sag.
mentation in the land force, and 72,0001. for that In the volunteers. He
then, after passing a high eulogium on the late Secretary of War (Sir
Henry Hardinge) and observing that reductions in the Colonial Staff
were under consideration, and that the salaries of the governors were to
be as tie a, possible defrayed by the colonies, concluded by moving
that 88,496 men should be voted for the year 1831.
Colonel DAVIES said that being convinced that several millions
might be reduced without impairing the efficiency of the army, he in.
tended to propose an amendment. The new members would learn, with
surprise, that a similar motion to the one which he understood was now
to be opposed by the government, had been submitted last year, and sup. '
ported by all those at present on the treasury bench. In the year 1822
the numbers proposed were 71,500. being a diminution on the present
year of more than 16,000 men. The total of officers and non-commis.
sioned officers amounted to 11,000, being quite out of proportion to the
rank and file. He contended that 30(1,0001. or 400,0001. might be saved in
therecruitingdepartment. By the present,syitem of sending outnew regi.
tnents annually to the colonies, no less than three thousand men were
annually afloat at sea, and consequently non-effective. If a Committee I
were appointed, it should inquire into the expenditure of the colonial
staff. The system of jobbing and patronage in the colonies was mon.'
strous. The Governor of Antigua enjoyed in salary 4,11001. of Trini.
dad 5,5001. of Demerara 5,7001. The Governor of Lower Canada had
a salary of 10,0001. Now there were highly respectable and corn-
pvent individuals who would go out for 2,0001. or 3,0001. Let the
House compare our expenditure with that of foreigners. After de.
ducting pensions and dead weight, the expenditure of our army and
ordnanee was about 6,000,0001. a-year, for 94,000 men. The French
army, under the lavish reign of the Bourbons, amounted to 250,000
men, at an expenditure of 5,200,0001. Thus every British soldier cost as
much as three French soldiers. The pre..ent increase in the forces was '
accounted for by government by the disturbed stare of the country. If
there was a commotion, eight thousand men would be as dust in the ba-
lance. Instead of the militia, he should prefer a national guard, not
numerous,or all-powerful as in } rance,but subsidiary to government,with
officers appointed by government, and composed of none under the rank
of householders. He intended to propose that the number of men should
be voted tor three months only, that the question might be referred to a
committee, and inquiries made as to how far the expenditure might be
reduced, without impairing the efficiency of the army. After alluding
to the present state of distress in the country, he concluded by moving,
that the vote extend only to the Ist of April, 1831.
Mr. BEAU 31ONT said, it would be a long time before the leis.
chiefs done in iteland could be repaired ; and the increase of the farce
was called for, especially in consequence of the rebellious proceedings
in Ireland, and the conduct of those who bad incited the population to
violence against the government. He also thought the state of France
and Belgium warranted the maintenance of a superior force.
Ms. O'CONNELL said, that he considered himself to have been
very unnecessarily attacked by the hon. member who last spoke ; how.
ever. the manner and intellect of the hon. member was such, that he
should prefer the weed of his disapprobation to that of his approba.
tion. The increase of the army was justified by him on curious
grounds. First, Ireland required ; then the state of France required
it ; next the state of Belgium required; and yet to meet all these
demands, there was to be the mighty increase of 7,000 men. The
hon. member then imputed to hint the desire to stir up rebellion.
He repudiated the language; it was not true; it was foul calumny.
The hon. member talked of loyalty; but he (Mr. O'Connell) prac-
tised it. (Laughter) Ah ! he could understand that sort of notice
very well; it was what he might expect there. His country was one of
fertility, and yet, in that fertile country, there was starvation : was it to
talk sedition to state that fact; and to excite to rebellion to endeavour
to get a remedy for it ? But he treated the false charge against him
with contempt. If he had been guilty of rebellion or sedition, how
came it that he had not been prosecuted for either? He bad never
uttered any speech in Ireland that there were not two Government
reporters present ; and when they had not room, or were inconveni-
ently stationed, he had always procured good accommodation for
them. So that if he had uttered rebellion or sedition there were ample
means of proving it. But it was found convenient to attack him—and
to attack him was an excellent clap-trap in that House. It was sure to
be cordially cheered there. This was the second time to-night that he
had been attacked, and without his, having said one word to provoke
attack. He declared that no man could exceed him in love for the
land of his birth ; and if he failed in his proceedings to promote her
welfare, he could at least declare that he did so sincerely and disin-
terested)y.
Mr. BEAUMONT said as the circumstances of Ireland were so no.
torious„ he would not reply to these remarks.
Col. BIBTHORP regretted that there was necessity for the increase
at the army t but he thought the increase was justified.
Lard ALTHORP urged that the circumstances of the country called
far the Mamie of the army ; more reductions, he believed, were prac.
doable, but as his right hon. friend had only just come into office, be
had been slow to adopt measures contrary to the opinions of experienced

persons. He would, however, undertake that the strictest investigation
should take place, and all possible reductions be effected. As to the
amendment, to vote the estimates for so short a period would be evincing
very little confident: en the Ministers, and be had ever disapproved of
the plan of sending such estimates to a Committee.
HARDINGE said, the proposed lama of the army was
only keeping it up to the ordinary peace establialuonst. It was well
'taws that there had been a diminution in the army, which it was now
bad requisite to make good. The hiatus of charge for the staff was
*wing to the transfer to such item of army extraordhsarles. He was
glad to see that the government revived the constitutional force of the
yeomanry and volunteers (hear). Would the bun. gentleman state what
would be the number called out ? And was there any truth in the ru-
mour that 20,000 yeomanry were to be called out for Ireland P If PO, the
estimate would be deficient 50,0001. As to reduction, he saw none, ex•
oat two offices, the treasurer of the Military Asylum and the agent for
the Military College ; and he made the observation because Lord Althorp
in his budget, had mentioned two hundred and ten offices that were to
be reduced. Why the two offices just named were to be reduced, he
could not understand ; if the treasurership were reduced, there must be
some other person. The office was useful, not highly paid, and was
not one of patronage. Similar remarks would extend toOhe agent for the
:Military College. Was there any other office but these two reduced In
the while Staff—in estimates amounting to upwards of 6,200,0001?
The present Government stood pledged to retrenchment—but had
any of the members found any of those abuses of patronage
which the country had been led to believe existed. He was very glad
that uo hasty experiments were to be tried, which by trying retrench-
ments would nave re.ked the efficiency of the army. If them were more
reductions of offices than he had named, he should be glad to have a
list of them. He confessed, when he looked at the 9,000,0001. taken
by France for the army--when he saw that France was like a camp—
he owned he had anxieties. The reasons of the armaments, no doubt,
would be given in due time. He, however, couid not but feel confidence
in ti:e small army now maintained, and which had so well conducted
itself in peace as well as in war ; but he trusted that peace would be
preserved as long as possible—that it might not be interrupted except
the honour of the country imperatively required it.
Mr. 8. RICE defended the estimates, and said, after the late Se-
cretary (Sir H. Hardinge), it was not practicable to effect many re•
duetions; and, as economical reformers, they were bound not to risk
their own principles and measures by injudicious retrenchments or
changes. As to the two offices that had been reduced, the duties
might be performed by any clerks. There was 3001. a-year ; and that
was very like patronage—there was the soul of patronage about It.—
(Chee:s.)
Mr. STANLEY admitted that these was about to be raised a yeo- '
marry force in Ireland. The circumstances of the country required it.
He knew that it was treading on delicate ground to propose the revival
of the yeomanry force in Ireland ; but if they were to save the country
from rebellion—to be prepared for excitement—this power must be had.
The government had only a choice of evils. This force would occasion an
increase of expense of 50,0001. The former yeomanry bed been called
out unly three days in a year ; most of their arms were unserviceable,
and they had not had any fresh clothing for the last twelve years.
He felt assured that the government could not be charged with urine.
cessary precautions, nor with desiring to overawe, by exciting religious
animosities or party fends ; for Lord Anglesea calculated that in
the yeomanry force Protestants and Catholics would unite (hear.)
111 r. ONNELL felt it his duty to protest against the calling out
of the yeomanry : if increased force were required, let the increase con-
sist of the King's troops. It was the misfortune of his country to have
some of the young noblemen to be sent amongst them, to serve a sort
of apprenticeship for statesmen—and filled those offices till they could
get something better. He would call the hon. secretary an appren-
ticed statesman, he would not again repeat, what he bad termed such
proceedings. They !:new nothing of the country, yet they returned after
some few hours' visit, and proposed measures for the government of the
country. The revival of the yeomanry force was now recommended.
That force had bctore caused dissentions and feuds ; and as the king's
troops would be received as friends, and would accompliah all that the
government desired, why resort to the yeomanry force, and risk the
revival of animosities, quarrels, and tumults? He implored the noble
lord not to listen to those who knew nothing of the country, and to send
the king's troops, and not to have the yeomanry force, if increased power
were required in Ireland.
Mr. STANLEY said he had no feelings of a personal nature to in-
dulge against the hon. member in that house ; and he disregarded the
descriptions of him that had been given, and now disowned.
Mr. O'CONNELL admitted that he had called the bon. member
a " shave.beggar" apprentice.
Mr. STANLEY repeated he was quite indifferent about these de-
scriptions, and whether they were used or not—but certainly, judging
from all the reports, and all he heard, Mr. O'Connell in that House,
and Mr. O'Connell, or the person who assumed his name in Ireland,
seeking the " most sweet voices" of the populace, were so different that
he could hardly believe them to be the same persons.—(Loud cheers.)
Here, however, he only knew the learned gent. as Member for Water-
ford, and he would not condescend to notice any " shave beggar"
abuse (loud cheering). He repeated, he was favourable to the revival
of the yeomanry force—and he also repeated that it was a force which
would unite both Protestants and Roman Catholics—and that it was a
force on which the government could rely. They relied also on the re-
turning good sense of Ireland. They had the wealth, the influence, the
character, and all that was moskivaluable in the country, against the
schemes of the Agitator—to support the liberties of the constitution,
and he might add of the country (loud cheering).
Lord L. GOWER supported the estimates.
Mr. HUME said he never before witnessed such a scene in that
house. He had that night seen three Secretaries of War disputing for
au hour which of them had saved the country 3001. The people of
England would hear with sorrow that the Army and Navy were to be
increased. It was said that the army was only to be raised to the
peace establishment. Was the peace establishment to be 100,000
men ? lie was confident that the distresses and the disturbances of the
country were caused by such a peace establishment. It was said that the
state of the centtinent required our increasing our force. He denied it.
What was it to this country it all France was a camp ?—if all Russia
was a camp ? We bad nothing to fear if the people were made happy.
We had an army of 88,000 men, 15,00010 f ;whom gwere officers.—He
did not wonder at the late Ministry cheering such extravagance, com-
pared to which their expenditure was economy. We should have an
army of officers before long. The whole peace establishment we were
now told, must be 128,000, without the militia, which he considered
not a constitutional force. He was certain that the yeomanry had done
much injury in England and Ireland. It was a reproach to the
gentlemen of F.mpland and the yeomen, that they were obliged to be
paid to maintain the peace. In France the National Guards
maintained the peace without expense to the country; and he
was confident thete were thousands In England, Scotland, and Ireland,
who were willing to preserve the peace and liberty of the country, without
pay ; but it appeared as if the Government was afraid to trust such men
with anus. The real question of the night wan, whether the house would
consent to pay 15,000,0001. for navy, army, and ordnance, a sum equal
to the expenditure of the country before the French war. Was it
wonderful that there should be distress and discontent in the country,
Since 11117. we had paid 220.000,0001. for, our military establishments.
That was one-fourth of the national debt ; and at least 180,000,0001.
might have been applied towards its extinction. He was afraid the pre.
sent Ministry, who wanted to keep up such a military eatablisment,
would come badly out of their trial as a non-interfering 'Mi-
nistry. He was sorry their conduct should allow the late Secretory
to say that the.'spwch of the Secretary for Foreign Affairs, reminded
him of the good-old times of Lord Castlereagh. (Hear, bear.) What
was that but to say that they were acting on the principles of the
Holy Alliance, who treated the people of Europe as if they were
herds of cattle. lie had nothing to apprehend from the powers
of the continent, none of them wished to interfere with us ; we were
always the interfering party, and we were now eating the bitter fruits
of our so doing. If the house agreed to the present estimate, let no
man expect to have his assessed taxes repealed. [A groan was heard
near Mr. Hume, which caused him to pause ; he looked at the honour.
able gentleman and resumed.] The country gentlemen had better be
quiet. (Hear, and a laugh.) He could take the sense of the house on
the question, if he thought it would do any good; brit both sides of the
house appear disposed to grant the estimates, and he was satisfied that
before long the ministers would be obliged to retrace their steps respect-
ing expense.
Lord PALM ERSTON'said he was: not surprised at seeing both
sides of the house agree in a peace establishment suitable to the pre-
sent circumstances of the country. The addition to the army only
raised it to what the peace:establishment was three yearn ago. it was
ridiculous to suppose that an addition of 6,000 men to the army could
be made with any view to foreign war. When the time came it would
be seen that this government had not attempted to interfere in the in.
ternal concerns of other countries; but he could not agree that we
should disband our army and dismantle out fleet. He thought our in-
seise position was not the less secure for our having a good army within
it, and our shores defended by a respectable naval force.

bir.',LITTLETON expressed his perfect concurrence in the proposed
augmentation of the army, and was not afraid that his constituents
should know his sentiments. The late Ministers, be thought, were also
entitled to the thanks of the country.
Mr. HUNT said, the last him Bondsmen bad praised both the pre-
sent Ministry and the last ; be shedding palm @ides. He was oes-
fident their increase of the army, and the Wades of half a Waste el
expense, would place the Minims in a state at oast dissaddisties
with the people. He appealed to the House on theleholl of the ea.
firing people of England who were loading the tele of the HMS
with petitions, declaring that their distress was instopeelabis. The
Rt. lion. Bart. before him (Sir R. Peel) coagratuktidi do Ministry..
having acceded to all his measures, and woodered how be had bow
turned out of his place It was evident that Milobasra had base dic-
tating to the ople of Belgium who they shad& have for tbeir E.g.
The only fault bad committed was ia am shooting a Kin film
amongst themselves, or, what would be still below, estahnelias a Re-
public. That was what the people of France t to have dens after
they had conquered their liberty by three days' sod the loss
of the best blood in the country. The Irish fistashay Monted the
boa. Member for Waawfori with holding a datsmit is that
Have from what he held to those the Right Bale eseleey

called the rabble of Dublin. He was sorry to hear such language, as
he knew the effect it would produce out of doors. (Hear, hcar)--
The Right Hon. Secretary should never say that of him, for slim.
ever he said out of the House, he would repeat within it.—(cries of
Question.)—He should not detain then', but would, at twelve o'clock,
move the adjournment of the House.—(A laugh.)—The Uni,ters pro.
posed an army of 88,000 men—a /Umber had proposed to make it
ei,000: he would move that it be reduced to 71,000. What was the
cause of wanting such an army P The cause was, they were afraid to
trust arms in the hands of the people of England—they all knew that
if the people had arms in their hands, there would be a reform 'n three
months. If the House reformed itself, and gave the vote by ballot, then
they need not fear to trust arms in the bands of the people. He ahould
move that the army be reduced to 71,000 men. The hon. gent. moved
accordingly.
The question being put,
Lord MORPETH mid he concurred in the augmentation rf the
army as the means of securing tranquillity at home and peace abroad.
(Hear, hear.) He concuned in the vote as a necessary, though he
hoped, a temporary evil.—(Heur, bear.)
Colonel DAVIES said, after the assurance of the Noble Lord that
every possible economy should be practised, he should nut divide the
House on his amendment.—( Hear, hear.)
The House divided on Mr. Hunt's amendment:—

Ayes
Noes

Mitioril against the amendment 244
The original resolution was then agreed to.
Mr. HUME made a few observations, but iv) great was the confu.
on not a word could be heard.

The resolutions being agreed to they were brought up, end the re-
port ordered to he received to-morrow (this day).
A long explanation was gone into regarding the Navy EstimateF,
which are to be brought (inward on Friday.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of.
Mr. PRINGLE gave notice of a motion for a new writ for the bo-
rough of Wigan, on account of Mr. Hodson, its representative having
accepted the Chiltern Hundreds.
A vast number of petitions were presented for Reform and Retrench.
ment, and a few against Slavery.
The House adjourned a+ a Quarter to Two o'Clock.

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE.
Frost the Monileur of Salurday, Feb. 10.

PREFECTURE OF POLICE—ORDINANCE NELATME TO
ASSEMBLAGES OF PEOPLE.
PARIS, FEB. 18,
We, Counsellor of State, Prefect of Police, ordain as
follows :

" Art, 1. All persons are expressly forbidden to form as-
semblages or tumultuous meetings in the public ways, under
any pretext whatever. _

-‘‘ '2. Every assemblage found in the public ways shall be
immediately dispersed by the officers of police, and, if neces-
sary, by the armed force,after the summons required by
the law.

" 3. All individuals forming part of an assemblage, or
meeting, who shall he guilty of resisting either the oticeas of
the police or the armed force, and all those who shall excite
to resistance, shall be immediately arrested and prosecuted.
" 4. All pe►sons who, either individually or collectively,
and by whatsoever ►nea►►.s, shall be guilty of the destruction
or defacing of public edifices or monuments, and in general
of any species of property, whether real or personal, public
or private, shall suffer the penalties prescribed by the Penal
Code. " The Counsellor of State, Prefect of Police,
" J. J. BAUDE.
" Becretary.General BIL 1.10."

PARIS, FEB. 19.—Ths image of our Saviour has been
removed from all the apartments of the Palais de Justice.
At 6 o'clock in the morning three blacksmiths were em-
ployed in removing the fleur-de-lis from the iron gates of
the Pulais de Justice. They have likewise been removed
from all the other places inside of the Palais, where they
had hitherto been suffered to remain,
" The German papers do not confirm the insurrection in
Bavaria, aunouvced by a correspondent of the Constitution-
nel, the Journal de Frankfurt says, that the King of
Bavaria had caused the deputation from Wurtzberg to be
informed that it would nat be received.

Penn: uxux, Feb. 14.—General Espinosa arrived here
to-day from Bergerac. General Mina is expected this
evening, from the same place.
ST. ESPRIT-BATONNE (Lower Pyrenees) Feb. 14.
(Correspondence of the dessager)—Spain is rapidly arm-
ing all its frontier towns, which receive reinforcements of
troops from the 'Wilde, the recruiting of which is going on
with great activity. It is affirmed, however, that the Spa-
nish notion wishes for peace. El Pastor is still at Cambo.
No other .panish chief shows himself. _ _

EXTRACT OF A LETTER FROM LISLE, DATED FED. 18.

The events which have passed in Paris are imitating in the
departments. Already Lisle has had its movement. At 12
o'clock yesterday a numerous deputation presented itself at
the mayoralty, to demand that the statue of the Duke of
Berri, erected on the place of the Concert, should be trans-
ferred to the interior of the Museum. The mayor replied,
that orders had been given in the morning for that transfer.
At the same hour, workmen were effectively employed in
erecting a scaffold to take down the statue from its pedestal.
There was a great crowd around them. As the workmen
appeared to work too slowly. in an instant the crowd flung a
cord around the body of the Prince, and the statue was over-
thrown, broken, trampled under foot, and mutilated through-
out. There consequently remains no fragment of the work
of the sculptor Bra, but a shapeless mass, only worth the
price of the metal from which it was formed. In the after-
noon they dismantled, piece by piece, and with care, the
mai.soleam of the same prince, in the church of St. Maurice.
A piquet of the National Guard defended the entrance of
this edifice to the crowd, and protected from demolition the
obelisk.

PARI3, FEB. 19.—0 n the 19th little occurred in the
Chamber of Deputies. The greatest confusion prevailed in
the hall. A report of M. (Millen Barrot's dismissal from
office having been circulated, all his friends surrounded him
when he entered. He held in his hand a letter which he
'read out for them, and it was said it was his dismissal. M.
Montalivet was likewise saluted by his friends. When
M. Betide arrived, a group of at least 50 members sur•
rounded him, and listened attentively to his discourse.
When the group had at length dispersed, M. Banda went to
speak with General Lafayette.
The brother of the Archbishop of Paris, M. de Quelen,
vindicated his brother from taking any part in the cause of
the recent disturbance ; and was supported in his defence
by M. M. Baude and Keratry. The sitting then adjourned,
and was to proceed on Sunday.

It seems to be as plain and as true as arithmetic, that if
the full nominal interest of the public debts incurred in paper
Is to be paid in gold, the public creditors profit too largely
by the return to a gold circulation. In the transactions of
life, the price of commodities, &c. the difference is double,
and in the most staple articles is full 50 per cent. Hence
the public creditors, who are entitled to 30 millions in paper,
ought, in truth, to receive but 20 millions in gold ; whereas.
by receiving 30 millions in gold, they get a sum on their
paper loans of 45 millions, which more than doubles the
effect of the debt. Nothing, therefore, could be more im-
provident, to say the least, than to return to a gold circula-
tion, without a previous bargain with the fundholders to ac-
cept 20 instead of 30 millions. Nor is this now too late.
If they adhere to their bond, we have then, with perfect
good faith, the alternative of returning to a paper currency,
and paying them off in their own coin. The paper-makers
and printing presses could soon produce 800 millions of bank
notes, like those which circulated from 1797 to 1822: but
we are convinced, that if the question were fairly mooted,
they would prefer 20 millions in the present currency. It
is a choice of evils.