Star.
London, England, 1805-06-01 00:00:00

MINUTES OF EVIDENCE.

The ExamitunionCIALEXANDRRTROTTAR, Ejq. talen before
she Committee on the Tenth hard Report, May 3, tBcs.

The &It part of Mr. Trottel% examination, rela-
tive to the 40,0001. paid to Lord Melville, in 1796,
for purpofcs not naval. It was paid to Mr. Wilfon
'rho of for Mr. T. in his abfente.

• Did you never pay any firm or rums yourfelf by
draft or notes, or payment of any defcription, into the
bands of Lord Melville, LI- any perfon authorifed by
him,or on his account, of public money iffued for Na-
val Services for purpofes not Naval ?—I have already
explained my difficulty to the Commiflioners of Naval
Inquiry, cf difcriminating between my public and
private monies ; and I have already declared to you
that I did not know the application which Lord Mel.
vine may hare made of advances which I may have
oecaflonally made to his Lordship.
(tif,Yios repraied.)-1 prefume I have.
At what time, and to what amount ?—My recol-
leeion does not enable me to anfwer that queflion.
Were any entries made by you, or any perfon au-
thorifed by you, in any books or ledgers, or any me-
mcrandom kept of any 14feripti in, of fuch payment ?
kept regular accounts of all my money tranfac-
tions with Lord Melville, but baying clofed and fet-
tled the whole of them, and, a mutual releafe having
Paired between us, I have not thought it neceffary to
preferve any documents refpeaing my tranfadions
with his Lordfhip.
Are chore documents in exiikenee 1--They are not,
as fir as I know.

When were they de it royed ?—At the time I was out.
of office ; I think in t 803.
Did you destroy them ?—I did; I „burnt tilde I
thought unneeeffAry to keep.
Did there books or documents contain your ac-
co;•:.ts with any other perfons betides my Lord Mel-
♦ille :—They did.
'When was the releafe before mentioned executed ?
:n the tar 1833, to the bea of my recolleaion.
When paymentsof the defcription above aatedwere
made, were they always made to Lord Melville per-
tbnally ?—Not always.
Did you ever do not at this moment, recolled
I e,,er did.

To whom did you ever pay, on Lord Melville's
account, public money for purpofes not naval ?—I
tiled moll frequently to pay them into the bands of the
principal Money Condudor, one of the officers of the
Navy Pay Office.

What was his ;same ?—Mr.Tweedy; he is now dead.
What other perfonsdid you make loch payments to?
I cannot recollat anv other perfons at this moment.
How long has Mr.tweedy been dead? Two or three
years fince Lord Melville's Treafurerihip ceafed.
To what cther perfons did you makefuch payments?
I do not re:l.:Ale& any other perfon.
Was there any account kept between Mr. Tweedy
and you ?—None.

What was the nature of the difcharge you received
from Mr. Tweedy ?—I took no difcharge.
What authority did Mr. Tweedy produce to yon
r,r the payment of fuch money I—The demand for
1;16 money bad previoally been made by Lord Mel-
ville to myfelf.
Verbally, or in writing I—Verbally,
Did ycra keep any account of the fume pair to Mr.
Tweedy, in eonfequence of fuch verbal demands of
Lord Melville? I entered them in the accounts which
I kept with his Lordlhip.
Are they in ezillence? I have already Mentioned,
that I had not thought it neeetiary to preferve any
ae6ounts between Lird Melville and myfelf, a mu-
tunl releafe having piled between us.
Do yen know the amount of any fuch fates which
you may have paid Mr. Tweedy ? My recollection
does rot rave me to fpecify any fact faros.
Do you recollat any thing about the date of fuch
payments ? I do nor.

No you rezcllea what fort of films they may have
been ? nnce or twice they may have amounted to be-
tween three or tour thoufand pounds, but not larger.
To what other perfons did you make fuch payments
b.:fides Mr. Tw. ely ? I do not recolleft.
In ro3king inch payments to Mr. Tweedy, did you
confider him as a public officer, or a private agent of
Lord Nldville obeyed Lord Melville's direaions
In Ps* itig the money to him, without pretending to
'flier whether be was a private Aggeenatt or not.
Had you any public money uraofisiooa with Mr.
Tweedy officially ?—I had.
Where were thofe public official tranfaaions record-
ed ?—ln the Navy Pay Office.
Are the payments of Mr. Tweedy, by Lord Mel-
ville's verbal order, recorded there elf* ?—They are
not in any inllance, etc. ite.
The remainder of this day's ex.-mination relates to
the re-payment of the 40,c001. Mr. T. lays, that Lord
M. had paid him intereli for money, but not for the
fums advanced to Mr. Tweedy.
What may have been the total amount of money,
2.fetibed to he advanced at different times to Mr.
T. -etly by order of Lord Melville, as nearly as yon
c in recolleCt I—The total amount of monies of this
rcription, to the belt of my recolleaion, has
rev:r, in the whole, exceeded 30,c001. until the four
40bCC01. was added to it I bet I cannot *ate with

; •
certainty that the whole of the fonts contlittninithat
30,c,001. was advanced to Mr. Tweedy.
To whom was any part of the 30,0001. advanced,
wh;ch was not paid to Mr. Tweedy ?—I have already
Rated, hit Ido not recollect.

ithin what period of time did there itihes take
place mean to comprehend the whole time daring
which I ailed as Paymalier under Lord Melville, for
14 or 15 years.
Why did you deflroy papers in which other per-
Cons accounts were kept, as well as Lord Melville's ?
Becaufe the whole of my accounts were clofed upon
my leaving London, excepting Tome private family
concerns, and very fmall accountsbetween my friends
and myfelf, which I carried forward into new books.
I defire to (late to my former anfwer, that to,oool.
°Cabe 30,0001. had accrued before I was appointed to
my office.
• By whom was the to,oool. advanced ?—I do not
/now. •

How did you know the exitlence of fuch a debt ?
My Lord Melville's acknowledgment to me.
To whom did he acknowledge himfelf debtcr ?
To the office.

Of bow long flooding had that debt been ?—I have
no knowledge of the circtimfiance.
To whom was the to,oool. repaid ?—lt mnft have
been repaid to me.
In what capacity did you receive that fum that
you had never advanced ? In capacity of Paymaller.
Did you then conceive it to be a debt due to the
public ?—I did.
Was any intereft paid upon it ?—None.
Had not Lord Melville made fuch acknowledg-
ment, could you have traced fuch a debt due from
him to the public, in any of the office books? I could
certainly have told that the balance of the account
put under my charge was fo much deficient.
Was Lord Melville debited for fuch fum in any
of the books ?—He was not.

What was the nature of the acknowledgment of
Lord Melville ?—Merely verbal, &c. &c.
The further examination of ALRIANDER Thorrzz, Bfq.
mien on the 411, of May, tilos.
Of the fums you have advanced from time to time
to Lord Melville, not exceeding the 20,0001. as men-
tioned yeflerday, do you know whether any part of it
was applied to any public purpofe ?—I do not, but I
beg to be underflood, that this fum which I have
mentioned yeflerday, is not conneEted with the fums
which I mentioned before the Commiflioners of Naval
Inquiry to have been occafionally advance to Lord
Melville, and for which I accounted his Lordfhip lily
private debtor, Btc.

[Here follow fcveral queftions and anfwers of in-
ferior importance.]
There is a certain rum mentioned in r 35th page of
the Tenth Depart of the Commitlioners of Naval In-
quiry, of the fum of 55631. fis. rid. which was paid
Into Lord Melville's own hands in May or June 1800,.
which was the balance of Lord Melville's firit Trea-
furcrfhip, ending in 1783 ; do you know where that
Turn now is ?—I do not, any further than I have heard
Lord Melville, within there three weeks or a month
Ay, that he meant to pay it immediately into the
' Exchequer.
From the (late of the accounts of Lord Melville's
firft Treafurerfhio,could thzt balance have been earlier
paid into the Exchequer ?—I apprehend not until
within thefe three or four months, until wi,ich time,
that account of his Lordfilip had not oten delivered
to the Auditorr.

Upon what does that depend, the delivery to tilt.
Auditor ?—The final arrangement of the account, in
the minute manner in which I have endeavoured to
defcribe, in which the whole payments made in the
treafurerfhip are brought to agree in the account of
the fums as certified to the fcveral Boards, with the
account made up in a different form and delivered
to the Auditors.

Whether any of the payments which yon had made
to Mr. Tweedy, by Lord Melvilles direeltuo, ha I any
relation to thofe circumlLtnces which Lord Melville
had confidentially communicated to you, and which
you did not deem yourfelf at liberty to relate, as
mentioned in page aos in the Tenth Report ?—I had
no fuch allufion.

[The Witnefs defires to amend his evidence of yef-
terday, as to fums advanced to other perfons befides
Mr. Tweedy ; fee page 19, 3d Moy— —ln looking
at my Banker's book, I find that I have occalinnally
made payments into the houfes of Meffrs Drum-
mond and Melfrs. Coints, and to my Lord Melville's
secretary, Mr. Alves, and other members of his
Lordfilip's family.]
Do you mean to fry that all there payments, added
to the pa meats made to Mr. Tweedy, do not exceed
in the whole, and during the whole time of your aft-
big as Paymafter to Lord Melville, the fum of
zo,oool. ?—Upon a further confiieration of the turns
which I (Wed yeQerday, I lhould with to add to that
fum two or three thoufand pounds.
When did your private agency begin with Lord
Melville I—l do not recolka ; I had no regular ap-
pointment as private agent.
Were any aes of private agency performed by you
for L'rd Melville, previous to your appointment as
Paymafter the Navy ?—Not any.
When did the private agency ceafe ?—lt has not
ceafed.

11 t• c you performed any a/I of private agency fince
the ~xecution of the releafes in 1803 ?—I have.
What do you mean by members of Lord Melville's
family ?—1 mean his domeflic fervants.

witnef withes to amend his anfwer of yeller-
day, in p. 20, 3d May— have already amended
my evidence nt yetterday, fn far as to fay, that I had
made advances for Lord Melville to others betides
Mr. Tweedy ; and I have now further to amend my
anfwer of yellerday, by raying, that fome of thofe
advances made to others than Mr. Tweedy, but con-
/timing the fum, as I faid yellerday, of 20,0001. and
to which to day I have added two or three thoufand
pounds, were advanced from funds exclufively of
public money; and I with in this to refer to my evi-
dence tires before the Commillioners of Naval In.
quiry, w p. 220, if an explanation to an anfwer that
I then gave on that &lied, and which, as I did not
recollea at that time the circumftances now menti-
oned, was then perfeEtly cone& ; and I mull further
amend my evidence of yelterday by now laying, thst
I do not think Lord Mt gave me verbal, or any
intlruetions, in fome iufiances wherein I had advanced
fnms of money for his Lordfhip to Mr. Tweedy.]
Upon what authority then did yon make Inch ad-
vances I aged in thole inflames from my own judg-

. .
ment, in the management of his Lordillip's con-
cerns.

You had at times verbal inftrudions from Lord
Melville ?—l'es, I had.
Of thelurns advanced to Mr. Tweedy and others,
for the ufe of Lord Melville, (fated by you ycflerday
to amount to the fum of zo,oool. to which you have
added a further fum of 2 or 3.0001. to day, can you
now, upon recollesflinn, (late how much was public,
and how much private money ?—I have no means to
enable me to (late that circumflance with accuracy.
Pleafe to !late it penerally ?—As nearly as I can
Rate it, about one half public, and one half private.
Do you mean to fay one half exclufively public ?Ido.
Do you mean the other half cselulively private
I mean the other half to have been principally ad.
vanced from my account at the houfe of Meffrs.
Coutts and Company.
Of the advances from ro to to,cool. m-ntioned in
the Tenth Report to have been made by you to
Lord Melville at different times, have you now any
means of judging what part was public and what
private money ? I believe the whole to have been ad-
vanced from my accounts at the houfe of Meffrs.
Coutts and Company.
Was inteteft always paid by Lord Melville to you
on thofe advances ? It was not.

•Was it ever [mid ? No ; his Lnrdfh;p paid me no
intereft for thole. advances, &c. &c. &c.

The further Examination of ALFXANDNIt TaorrEtt, Efq.
, taken the 6th of May, 1805.
Can you recoiled any thing about the repayment
of the fpeeific rum of 10,0001. which, at your com-
mencing Paymafter, Lord Melville acknowledged to
you that he owed to the Public do not.
What rums did you annually receive, as my Lord
Melville's private Agent, from other foorces, raving
thofe of his falary as Treafurer of the Navy ?—I do
not recoiled any regular annual payments made to
me upon his Lordllip's account, although I have re-
ceived confiderable turns, and in many inflances, &c.
How did Lord Melville defcribe to you that he had
become poffeffed of the zo,oool. which he then de-
fcribed himfelf to owe to the Navy Pay Office ?—I
do not remember that his Lordthip explained him-
felf to me upon that fubjed.
Had you any means of knowing whether that had
been applied to a public or a private purpofe ?—I
had not, further than his Lordfhip having expreffed
his apprehenlione that it might ultimately be preju-
dicial to his intereft.

In what manner ?—He did not enter further in ex•
planation with me on the ftiojeet.
When you defcribed this fum of to,oool. to make
part of a fum of 30,0c01. which had been advanced
to Mr. Tweedy for the ufe of Lord Melville, did yon
mean that you had been informed by Mr. Tweedy of
this fum being fo applied ; or was it from Lord
Melville only that you derived any knowled7e of this
fum of fo,oool. ?—it was born Lord Melville only
that I had any infotmstion upon the fobjed of this
to,oool. ; and if I have conveyed, by my former
evidence, the idea that this fum of money bad been
advanced to Lord Melville through the means of Mr.
Tweedy, I mull beg to correel that ftatement.
Has that to,oool. been repaid ?—That to,oool. as
well as every other rum for v:hich Lord Melville has
been indebted to the Public as Treafiirer of the Navy,
and which has accrned fince the year 1786, when I
was arpointed Paymafler, has been repaid.
IL'e exa::nnaon rf nsit laovrrea, Ffq.
titi..n the 7,b of Ain', iBos.
Can yon give to the Committee any more precire
explanation of the converfation which yon related
yellerday to have taken place between you and Lord
Melville at the time he acknowledged his debt of
to,oool. to the public, when you commenced Pay-
mailer, or can you now recolleCt with nacre precifion
what the words were ufed by Lord Melville am
lorry, from the dillance of time when that converfa-
lion took place, that I have it not in my power to
give any further explanation upon that lubjed.
Pleafe to repeat his words, as near as you can re-
colle&, that you before mentioned Lordthip
' expreffed his a pprehenflons that the circu alliance al-
luded to might ultimately prove prejudicial to him,
and which I concluded to be meant in a pecuniary
light.
What circumftance ?—The circumftance of the ba-
lance put under my charge being abort to,oool. lefs '
than the balance for which he was accountable to the
public, &c. &c.

/gain—
What was the largeft fum you ever had in your
hands of the private account of Lord Melville at one
time ?—That appears perfeftly impollible for me to
afccrtain, as his private t:Anfaetions paffed through
an account current in which his Lordfhip was gene-
rally indebted to me ; but at other times the balance
was in favour of his Lordfhip.when I neither charged
intereft upon any balance due by his Lordihip, nor
did I charge myfelf with any iutereft at times when
the balance may have been in his Lord'hip's favour.
Do you recollea the largefl balance in the account
current that ever appeared in favour of Lord Mel-
ville ?—ln an account comprehending fo long a pe-
riod, it is very: ylifficult for me to give an accurate
anfwer to that queltion ; but it certainly has at tome
time been as large as between aocol. or 30001. in Lord
Melville's favour.

Do you recalled the largelt balance in the account
current that ever appeared in your favour, with the
fame degree of accuracy ?—I eo not recoiled with
the fame degree of accuracy, but I have upem a for-
mer occafion declared it had never exceeded from to
to 20,0001.

Do you now allude to the fume mentioned in your
evidence before the Commiffioners of Naval Inquiry,
to have been advanced by you occafionally to Lord
Melville, to the (urns mentioned by you in your evi-
dence before this Committee to have been gdvanced
to Lord Melville through the hands of Mr. Tweedy,
Meas. Drummond, and others, or to any other furns?
—I allude to the fums which 1 had occafinnally ad•
vanced to Lord Melville, as Rated in the Tenth Re-
port ; but fome of thole occafional advances may
have been made through the hands of Mr. Tweedy,
Meffrs. Drummond, or others.
Are the Committee Rill to underhand that you
mean the advances of from to to 20,3301. as men-
tioned in the Tenth Report, to be cliflina and diffe-
rent from the advances of a3,occl. mad: by you in
the whole, as Rated by you in evidence before this
Committee ?—They are Rill to under hand 11.
Did there different advances all pats through your
account current with Lord Melville :—They did ne,t.

, . .
r. r• • •
Dillingnitii which did and which did nott—l can.
not'do :t from memory. • Have you any documents to refer to 7_..1 have al-
ready laid that I have none, and in/ regret for that
eircomtlance: •

Why was tame of the advances p!aced hi the le•
count current, and others not ?—I only placed the
fums in the account current of which I knew of the
appropriation; of the appropriation of the other
fums I was ignorant.
• Do you mean by appropriation, this you had the
payment of filch fums on behalf of L.-td Melville ?"
—With regard to the account current, I do.
Yon have Bated to the Committee, is a former
part of your evidence, that you eu receive intereß
on fome advances made to Lord :vielvitie, on ethers
none ; you have to-day flared, that in the account
current you had neither charged intereft to Lord
Melville, when the balance in mat account aopea•ed
in your favour, nor paid it when it appe tied it, fa-
vour rf his Lordthip ; on what advances then did y
charge interett alluded to a film of money 'sill a
his Lordlhip direeed me to borrow, and for which •
his Lordlhip paid a regular interell of 51. per cent.
The further Examination of ALEX. TROf TER, El;r, tarn
the 911., of May, ifics.
Were you the lender of the money borrowed for
Lord Melville, and for which he paid an interett
I was.
What was the amount ?—My recolleSion does nit
enable me to Bate this with accuracy ; but I believe,
to the belt of my knowledge, that it was a fum not
exceeding from 20 CO 23,0001.
Is that fum repaid ?—lt is.
How long fince ?—Four or five years, etc. &c.
The Exam;nation of the kis& Honcuralle WILLIAM Pirr,
taken on the Gib of Moy, 1505.
Do you know of any ittttance of money, Med for
Naval Service, applied to purpofes not Naval
know of one fuch
Have the goodnefs to Itat it ?—lt was an advance
made from Naval money, in the courfe of the year
1796 ; I think late in the fummer or in the autumn
1796 ; I am net able to afcertain the precife time :
it was made to the hour: of Meths. Boyd and Zen-
field, who were then contractors for two leans for
Government; the advance was the fum of 40,-,0r.:!.
It was made in confequence of a reprefentation that.
from the difficulty which exiiled at that time in ob-
taining advances, even on good teeinity, they were
tinder fuch pecuniary embstraffments as won't'? pre.
vent their making good an inltalment due to Grv:re-
ment. Unqueftionable fecuri,ies were given for the
repayment of the advance, and under th.:fe circum-
, ftances, knowing no other way at the time by whicht
filch ferious mitchief to the public fervice could be
prevented, and um-let-Banding that the Naval Service
was not likely to fuller arty Inconvenience from this
advance, I concurred in opinion with the Treafarer
of the Navy, th ,t it was advifeable to make it. f
Inuit beg the Committee to undetftand that I can
only Bate the general Inbliance of the tranfaa4ion to
the belt of my recollection, not being able precifely to
recal all particulars at this dittanee of time.
To whom was the pecuniary embarratrments of
the houfe of Boyd and Bonfield made known ? To
myfclf and Lord Melviik.

At the fame time ?—Whether fepaitarel r or jointly.
I cannot undertake to fay,but I rather bell .vetwr h wars.
With whom did the propofitiun for ti,e relief of the
houte of Boyd and Beads!, by the mean) which were
afterwards retorted to, originate 4111 V•llti t
the !linen= of the means melt have originc:4
with the Treafurer of the nvy.
Did the Treafurer of the N ivy late-in what mm-
ner he meant to obtain the money do not recol-
lea that he did s but I nodes flood fenefally, the it
was money which could, in his opinion, be rinteed I.kr
a time, without inconvenience, provictest there w.ta
fufficient fecurity for its repayment.
Do you know, in point of Gat, how it was obtain-
ed ?—I do not, from tby own knowledge.
Did you inquire into the nature of the fccur;ties
that were taken, or their amount ?--I was ftt;stie t
at the time that the tecurities offered were !itch .t,
might be depended upon. and I think 1 underfll
them to coniitt either of Navy Bills or of Bill, w!ti
had been accepted by the Raft India Company, whi ft
were to fall due at fitccellive periods ; but I do n.rt
recolleft having myfelf feen the tecurities.
Did you conceive the trantattian to be irregul t••
and illegal certainly confide.ed it as ttrtgit tr
I do not know it occurred to me at the time it wa
pofitively illegal ; but I have no Oifficalty in favii,,s
that T was to Ilrongly imprefted with the belief of its'
importance and urgent necetlity, ith a tie ,v t‘i
fential public interetts, that I :hook have thouglo .t
my duty to incur the rilk of commit; ing an it re;:il
and illegal aft, rather than expofe the p:iblic to ;
mifchiet which I thought would others% ile I
have arifen.

Did you make any memorandum in writing of die
trananion, or any part of it ?—No, I did ntit.
Did you take any Reps towards obtaining an in-
demnity of loch an irregularity, committed with your
knowledge and concurrence ?-Isin. I did not ; I
conceive that it was impolEble for me to have done
fo, without difciciing circumflances which mill have
been highly injurious to the mercantile Itocile con-
cerned, and might have in a great meal-tire tern'td
to counterati the colljeds of tit: public fervice which
I had in view.

When Nth delicacy as to the difclofure of the treat-
allion had ceafed, did you take any filch Ileps
have never hitherto ta':en fuel* daps ; the delicacy at•
tending fuch difclofure could never, l c.,nct ;ye. he
confidered as having.realed, t'll after the houfe in
queflion became bankrupt.
When did that happen ?—I rally do not reecllca,
hut it was a confderable time, I believe three or four
years after the tranfaelion ; and I confefs the neceSty
of applying for indemnity did not then prefent itleff
to my mind, &c. &c.
Do you know of any other advances of money
iffued for Navy Serv:ces to pisrpofes not Naval, at
any time, nr nt any &fails:km ?—No, I do 'lot know
of any fuch advances.
fu,..:4rr t x.p:thla:icia cf t. 3! FirSt Hot. JVictrAry
ATT, totem/e 7/.4 Of nay. I
Was any intere(l paid by Hairs. Boyd upon the
loan of 43,0001. ?—I do not knew that there was.
Why was it not paid ?—No demand was made.
Do you recoiled any other loitance .4 public money
advanced to commercial perlons in which intereft
WPC not demanded ? I do not ieculled any fitn, iar
inftance cf fuch an advance. [lira ova.