Star.
London, England, 1822-03-13 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY, MARCH /3,, IM.

•
This day were published. in Octavo, price 71.1 n boards,
THREE LETTERS to the Right Honourable
the Earl of LIVERPOOL, on the DISTRESSES of
AGRICULTURE; in which the Influence of these Distresses
on our Manufactures, Trade, and Commerce is considered; as
well as the Justice, Policy. and Necessity, of Legislative Velief.
With Observations on Cash Payments and a Free Trade. •
the Right Hon. Lord STOURTON.
A New Edition, with Additions.
Printed for J. Mawman, 39, Ludgate.street.
The Third Letter may be had separate, price 31.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.
HOUSE OF LORDS, MARCH IS.
Lord Gaarrettur Someasee, Sir Cnatseornsa Cox; and other
Members of the Went of Commons,
•brought up two Private
Bills, which were read a first time.
On the motion of Lord Aportarizi, the Bid for regulating the
Lighting and Paving of the City of Durham, was read a second
time, and ordered to be committed on Thursday next.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, be held in his hand a
Petition from an individual who was unknown to him; but the
subject of it had some relation to a Bill then before the House,
for the registry of deeds. The Petitioner stated, that be had
been nearly wined by losses, in ionaequence of a marriage set-
tlement' 'and prayed that provision might be made to prevent
such In future.—Ordered to lie on the able.
The Noble Marquis said, he conceived it necessary that
when any important Petition was intended to be presented to
that Housertheir Lordships ought to be previnudy apprised of
it ; and with that impression, he should give notice that a Noble
Duke, a friend of his, meant on Friday next to preterit a Peti-
tion from a greet body of respectable persons in Ireland, rela-
tive to the system of tithes in that country; and that he him-
self should at the same time present another Petition to the
same effect.

REDUCTION OF TUE FIVE PER CENTS.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL moved the reading of
the Order of the Dal for sammoning their Lord-
shipg ; which being read, the Noble Eatl said, that in
rising to move the second reading of the Bill then
before the House, he felt it necessary to make some
observations respecting its nature and object, and 'he
conceived the best way of making himself intelligi-
ble would be by a concise statement of the principal
features of the measure. First of all he must say, he
had not the least doubt that it was adopted ni a prin-
ciple of good faith, and on that ground it was the
duty of the Government to pursue the course it had
now taken. The only, question then was, whether
they could proceed in it consistently with good faith
towards the holders of Five per Cent. Stock ? When
this Stock was created, after the American war, there
was a condition set forth in an Act of Parliament
that the same should not be paid off until meaty-
five millions of the National Debt were redeemed.
From that time until 1793, when the war broke nut,
it was in the power cf the Government to pay off the
4 per cents. During the same period, which was a
period of peace, about ten millions of the Debt had
been redeemed by the operation of the Sinking Fund ;
and the question now was, whether by the continued
operation of that fund, debt to the amount of twenty-
five millions had been redeemed so as to fulfil the
condition entered into with the holders of the Stock ?
His opinion decidedly wag, that the condition had
been fulfilled ; for previously to the year. 1793, ten
millions had been redeemed, and after that nineteen
millions more and upwards were redeemed ; so that
on such redemption taking place the Government
would have been justified by law in paying off the
Stock in question. But there was another circum-
stance which occurred during the war, which would
have amounted to a fulfilment of the condition ; he
meant the redemption of the Land Tax. •It might
be said that the money on that occasion was raised
on the landowner. But money must be raised
somewhere, in all cases where a fund was to be
created for paying off a particular debt. After
what he had now stated, there could be no question
as to the fact of twenty-five millions of the Debt
having been redeemed. It might be said, that as by
an Act of George H. the 3 per cents. could not be
paid off without giving three months' notice to the
holders, a similar principle ought to be acted on in
this instance ; that Act, however, did not prevent the
Government from paying off any portion of the 3 rer
cents. without notice, provided the holders of it con-
sented. At all events it could not apply to the case
now before their Lordships, in which the only contract
was, the redeeming twenty-five millions of the Debt.
The Act stated nothing more, and therefore the Go-
vertiment had a clear right to pay off without giving
any notice whatever. But he was not bound to rest
solely on that part of the question ; he would go to
the equity of the case—and the best proof he could
give of the equitable course the Government was now
pursuing was the opinion of the Five per Cent. Fund-
holders themselves. By referring to the state of the
Funds at different periods, and making a comparison
between the prices of each, this opinion would
clearly appear. At the time when the 3 per cents.
were at 98, there was nothing like a proportionate
rise in the Five per Cents. According to the several
rates of interest, they should have been at 130 per
cent. but they never got so high, and the reason was
that the holders always knew they were redeemable.
There was no doubt in the world then as to the right
in question ; and if there had been a doubt he was
justified in taking into consideration the general un-
derstanding which prevailed among the Five per
Cent. Fundholders, that their Stock was redeemable
at anytime, and the prices of their Stock were regu-
lated accordingly. There was not a Banker or
a Broker in London who did not know this to be the
case; and who could not calculate at all times on the
advantages which the punch asers of Stock might de-
rive from purchasing in the 3 per cents. or Five per
Cents. This fact, lie thought, would be sufficient to
set the question at rest, so far as regarded the equi-
table legality of the proposed measure. He should
now come to the mode of' carrying the measure into
effect. It was by calling on persons to signify their
dissent, and by implying that all who did not do so
assented to the measure. Now, he would put it to
the House whether this.was not an equitable and an
expedient mode of proceeding? A similar course
had been pursued at the time of the Consolidation
Act, 'when it was implied that all who did not give
their dissent had"assented to the measure. The same
thing was done with respect to the Long Annuities.
The principle now acted upon was warranted by pre-
cedent, and no individual could have any difficulty
in making up his mind on the subject. He could
not, therefore, see any necessity for delay, which, on
the other hand, would produce great inconvenience,
by the encouragement it would hold out to stock-
jobbing speculations. On that ground, then, he
would maintain that it was expedient to cart y the
measure into effect with as Mlle delay as possible.—

. • I

1K ICE SEVIN-PENCE.

Asto theobjection that had been made on the ground
of negotiations pending with foreign Powers, there
was nothing in the state of those negociaions to in-
duce him to postpone the measure ; and he should
be ready to advise his Majesty to repeat the same
words now, with respect to Russia and Tur key, which •
he had delivered in his Speech at the opening of the
Session. This, however, he would state to the House,
that if there were anything in the present situation of
Europe, or in our relations with foreign Powers, which
might in likely to involve this country in a war, his
opinion would be that the measure under the consi-
deration of the House ought not to be adopted.—
But without holding out any expectation of the man-
ner in which the negotiations might terminate, or
calculating on what might happen in the course of
some years, he would now assure their Lordships,
that since the year 1816 there was no period hi which
we were less likely to be engaged in a war than the
present, and in which there appeared a greater pro-
bability of a continuance of peace—(Near, hear). He
therefore saw no time more fit for this measure than
the present. It was one which' would produce a saving
of £1,300,000 to the country ; and there was nothing
in the situation of the country that could obstruct it.
Then, when their Lordships considered the increase
that had taken place in the Revenue last year, and
the still greater increase which might hereafter be
expected—for it was progressively increasing—he
was sure they must feel that so large a saving made
in the public burdens would produce a great public
good; although he would not deny that it must be
accompanied by a sacrifice to some individuals. That
a great public good would result from the measure
must be evident horn the abortive attempts that had
been made by some few individuals to defeat it. On
these grounds he trusted their Lordships would agree
to the motion for the second reading of the Bill.
The LORD CHANCELLOR, said, that in conse-
quence of what had fallen from the Noble Earl (Grey)
on the preceding night, when his opinion was called.
for as to a point of law connected with this case, he
felt it his duty to -address their Lordships. No ore.
could entertain a doubt that the Five per Cent. Funds
were redeemable; and the fact was always known to
the holders of them from the constant price they have
in the market. Such had been the impression on this
subject in the Court where he presided, and where
they were so much in the habit of considering the
Five per Cents: as subject to redemption, that unless
a testator partic-slarly directed that the property of
infants should either remain or be vested in these
Funds, they held it to be their duty to put all such
property into the Three per Cents. as being a Stock
not likely to be altered, and where property must
always be most valuable. With respect to the Act
of the 24th Geo. 111. on the preceding night a doubt
had been expressed in another place, whether three
months novice should not be given to all holders of
Five per Cent. Stock, as well as to these whose pro-
perty was vested in the Court ?—to this he would
answer,. that there was no such provision in the Act
of Geo. 111. The chief question on which he should
now give his opinion vas, whether 25 millions of the
Public Debt bad been redeemed according to the
provision of the Act of Geo. III.? On that Feint he
must say, that the Legislature could never have so
fat forgot its duty, as not to have contemplated the
possibility that a debt might be paid off on one hand
and created on another. If ho were then requited to
give an cpinion en this question, he would say, that
25 millions of debt bad actually been paid off; that
such was the understanding of the holders of the Five
per Cents.; and that understanding on the part of
the holders was, pro 'auto, an argument that such
had been the opinion of the Legislature—namely,
that the tedemption cf 25 millions was a fulfilment
of the condition stated in the Act, although more
debt might afterwards have been created. But he
would go farther, and maintain that the redemption
of the Land Tax was a redemption of deLt. This
was his opinion, and in stating it he was actuated by
the purest motives. With regard to the political pact
of this question he would not trouble the House with
one word upon it. He had no motive in addressing
the House,but to give his opinion on the law of the case.
Earl GREY declared, that in what lie had stated
on the preceding day, and what he was then about
to state, his only object was, to save tile House front
that stain which would rest upon its character, if a
measure of this kind were carried through with m-
utual precipitation. He had stated his doubts yes-
terday respecting the law of the case, and now felt
himself bound to express his obligation to the Noble
Earl on the Wooliack, for the pains he had taken to
clear av:ay any difficulties that *eight re.t on that
part of the question. It was not his wish to obstruct
the success of the present measure; but, on the Coe-
trary, to promote any plan that might reduce the in-
terest of money, and relieve the Public from the
pressure of the burdens under which they laboured.
But if doubts remained • t the iniiids of their Lord-
ships, it was their duty to allow time for the consi-
deration of the subject; and also to give time to those
who were likely to be affected by the measure to de-
fend their interests. The Noble Lord opposite had
admitted that these funds could net be paid off, until
twenty-five millions of Debt were redeemed. The
question then was, whether this sum had been so
discharged as to give tarliament a light to pay off
this fund ? He telt great difficulty in opposing
any legal opinion corning from the Noble Earl on
the Woolsack ; but the Noble Earl must admit that
it was a Lone fide, and not a constructive payment
of debt, which must have been contemplated by the
Legislature; and had there heen abonape discharge
of the debt? The fact was, that while more than
twenty-live millions were discharged, a much greater
cn
tiher,tittlyiastiftwDeenhttslitiavdebmeeilnliocnrcs.aotefdn ea
Debt
tiid it be
iladbeenstdddis.,
charged? The Noble Lord on the 'Woolsack s. iI it
w.ts; first, by the Oper scion of the Snaring Funi,
and next by the redemption of the Land Tax. He
would ask, then, if these redemptions could be con.