Star.
London, England, 1805-06-19 00:00:00

ST/TN OP ItILAND.

The Order of the Day being read,
The Earl of SUFFOLK rote, to bring forward
his promifed motion on the above fubjee. He pre-
faced it by a fpeech of confiderable length, in the
courfe of which he expatiated upon the fuperior po.
licy and expedience of inquiry on the principle
which he was about to recommend; a principle
I which was fandioned by the authority and recom•
mendation of that great flatefman and philofopher,
Lord Chancellor Bacon, and to the want of a pro-
per attention to which, was in a great degree to be
attributed the loft of our late polrellions in North
America. He dwelt upon the great importance of
Ireland as a component and integral part of the
United Kingdom, and its peculiar political impor-
tance, refulting from its geographical fituation, and
the various local advantages poffened by that ifland.
This important part tithe United Kingdom, he was
warranted by authority in faying, was far from being
in a tranquil Rate ; this he could fairly infer from
various opinions upon the fubjed, which were given
by many noble Lords in the courfe of the late im-
portant difcuillons on the Catholic queftion, and
more efpecially from the Legifiative authority of
the two Bills paired in the early part of the feOlon,
eaclufively applicable to Ireland ; the one for lid-
pending the Habeas Corpus A& and the other an-
thorifing the exercife of Martial Law. Politically
;peaking, therefore, Ireland was not to be regarded
as in a tranquil Rate, and with refped to its domef-
tic and internal confiderations, he trolled he could
'prove it to be, fo far as to lay a ground for his inten-
ded motion, in a Rate, comparatively, of the moll
deplorable mifery. To the prefent unfortunate fitn•
ation of Ireland, he obferved, various miles contri-
buted, and fome of the principal of thefe he fhould
endeavour to explain to their LordiniPs• In this view
what nruck him as one of the molt prominent, was
the confideration of tythes, which, under the gaining
regulations, and in the way in which they were col-
leded in Ireland, were to be regarded as an intolera-
ble grievance. Their Lordihips would recoiled, that
the great body of the peafantry and the lower order
of the pe.i)le in that country were of the Roman Ca-
tholic perlualion, in a proportion of at lean nine-
tenths ; thefe were liable to the payment of tythe,
fo; the maintenance of a church of which they were
not members, in addition to what they contributed
to the fupport of the clergy of their own communion,
and thus had they, the lower and the pourer orders
of the people, a peafantry, perhaps the moil dif—
trcfred of any in exiftence, to 'pay a double tax.—
Let their Lordtlips confider the point, put it to
their own feelings, it was what none of them could
approve of. In his conclufions on this part of the
fobjed, he was borne out by the opinions of the in-
furgent chiefs. Doullors M'Nevin and Emmett, on
their examination, on being qnellioned as to the
point, laid the Roman Catholic peafantry of Ireland
did not care a farthing about emancipation ; what
they withed for was, the abolition of tythes.—
He next expatiated on the dilireiled 'fituation of the
Irith peafantry, which he defcribed as greatly ag-
gravated by the prefent tythe fyftem in that country.
It was well kn, wn that the principal food of the Irilh
pcafants was potatoes. For the ground on which
that root was railed the peafant paid very high rent ;
four, five, in fame cafes even to ten pounds a-year
rent; added to this, the cultivation of the potatoe
required a greater proportion of manual labour than
' any other vegetable, and from thofe the tythe was
rigidly exaded : a grievance which thole combined
confiderations greatly aggravated. His Lordfhip
expatiated a great deal on the falutary confequenees,
which, he conceived, would.refult to Ireland and to
the empire at large, from Catholic emancipation,
and feemed to argue, from a variety of proceedings
which took place in Ireland, and from the language
held out from various quarters, particularly from
the year 1793 to the completion of the meafure of
Union, that the Catholics were led to imagine, if they
were not promifed it in terms, that their conftitu-
tional emancipation would be one of the earließ re
Cults of the Union. That fuch might in that event
fafely and beneficially take place, ho Rated, was the
opinion and fentiment offome of the moll celebrated
natefmen and writers of that nation, who, in gene.
ral, inculcated fuch a principle ; fome of thefe were
referred to by his Lordfhip, as well as the fine& of
the Lord Lieutenant to the Irifh Parliament in 1793,
of which the projeted amelioration of the Rate of
the 'liar Catholics and peafantry formed a leading
feature ; and the addreires from certain Roman Ca.l
tholic meetings in the counties of Wexford, Water-
ford, and Cork, with the anfwer of the then Secreta-
ry to the Lord Lieutenant, Lord Caillereagh, were,
on the Cane princip'e, referred to by his Lorellhip.—
He continued to expatiate on the falutary elites,
which, he argued, would attend Catholic emancipa-
tion, and commented on what he thought the injuf-
tice and opprefflon of continuing the prefent fyftnn
with refpee to the Irifh Catholics. He defcribed the
wretched and miferable litutaion of the Irifh peafantry
as in a great degree owing to thefe odious and im-
politic reltraints, referring, as he proceeded, to the
opinions of various writers upon the fubjee, and on
the Rate of Ireland—they were ill clothed, ill fed,
and ill lodged ; the luxury of !hoes, Rocking', or
meat food, which their country fo abundantly pro-
duced, was unknown to them—and thefe be con-
trailed with the fituation of the correfponding claire:
of the inbabitaou of South Britain, where a differ.

ent fyllem, civil and eccletiaßical, prevailed. He
dwelt upon the generous and affeEtionate difpotitions
'of that peafantry ; and, generally (peaking, when
left to theinfelves, of their d,,cility and inoffenfive
demeanor. He lamented the late decition of P.:rlia-
ment on the Cubic& of kith Catholic emancipation,
and adverted to the fears which feemed to be enter-
tained, in a legiflative point of view, of fuch a mea-
fore as groundlers and abfurd. No ferious injury to
either Chu:ch or Rate could ever be apprehended
from the introdudion of perhaps fevcn or eight Irith
Catholic Commoners into a legiffative affembly of be-
tween fix and (even hunded protellants ; nor from
the circurnaance of eleven or twelve Catholic Peers
taking their feats among their Lordfhips. Betides,
in that point of view, fome degree of rettridiort may
be well interpofed ; for inßance, thofe who changed
their religion from the Proteftant to the Catholic,
fhuuld not be allowed to Gt in Parliament. He only
threw this out as a general idea. He was a lliong
advocate for the principles of toleration ; genuine
Chriftianity went not to ordain religious eftablifti-
mcnts in a Rate; and he panegyrifed the tyftem
adopted in America with refped to religion, where
every denomination of Chriftians was equal in the
eye of the law, and alike eligible to the admit-in:7a-
ing government ; neither were the Trill Catholics fo
well treated as tbcir fellow fubjeds of the fame per-
(nation, in other parts of his Majetly's dominions.
He adverted particularly to thole of Canada, who,'
forming a great majority of the inhabitants of that
part of the Empire, had their religion eftablifhed in
their favour; and why, he would elk, was the Coro-
nation Oath of the Sovereign to be held binding,
with refpeft to the Catholics of Ireland, and not
(offered to 'aired thofe of Canada f On the bene-
ficial effeds, either in a view of internal or external
policy, of the fyttem adopted with refped to Ca-
nada, he dwelt Shortly ; and referred to the au-
thority of certain writers on that fubjed, which, he
argued, bore him out in his conclufion. Another
coafideration, which, he Paid, contributed to the mi-
ferable fituation of the frith peafantry, to which the
prefent unfortunate Rate of that country was Co
greatly owing, was the extremely low price of la-
bour. This, he obferved, was, in many parts of
Ireland, not more than five-pence per day ; though
the rents paid for land, were, upon the whole, as
high, or rather higher, than thofe paid in England; and
one of the leading expedients which he would recdm-
mend to ameliorate the condition of the poor in that
country, would be, to raife the prices of labour.—
With their prefent wages, it was ationithing how
they could protraft exikence ; to many parts of the
province of Munfter, he underftood thefe ()brava-
tions would particularly apply. Another leading
confideration, and which greatly contributed to the
prefent Rate cf Ireland, and the difireffed condition
of the poor, was the fyftem in general adopted by
abfeutee landlords, and which, in Come points of
view, though they flintily let their castes at lower
rents than others, in the firs inftance, opetated as
a great grievance ; what he principally adverted to
was, their pradice of letting their lands to what
were called " middle men," who ufually let them
out again to the occupying tenant at exorbitant rents.
This fytiem was equally injurious to the head land-
lord, and the perfon who tilled the ground. By ab-
fentees he did not mean thole Noble Lords who at-
tended their duty in that Houfe, but great landed
proprietors, who rarely, if ever, !net! Ireland; and
he inftanced force cafes where, by the adoption of a
different plan, the occupier of the ground was confi-
derably benefited in his fituation, and the raps of the
head landlord at the fame time greatly iacreafed; and
he alto adverted to fome 'proceedings known to him-
felf, which, he contended, evinced the neceffity, with
a 'reference to the amelioration of the Rate of Ireland,
of fome alterations in that part of the fyflem. All '
thefe colViderations combined, indeed, and the noto-
rious
internal Situation of Ireland called for it, Mewed
the nece&Y bf an inquiry into the real Rate of th'it
valuable and important part of the United Kingdom,
in order that Government and the Legiflature may,
as far as pradicable, atcertain what Reps were proper
and neceffary to be taken for amelibrating the condi-
tion of its inhabitants, and the Security of that part of
the empire. A great majority of the people in that
country Were, he contended, obvioullf diffatisfied with
their prefent condition, and, lie feared, that the large
armed force, which it was found netettary to main-
tain in Ireland, was not fo much for the purpofe of
repelling invalion, as to fupprefs intimation. With
a view to obviate everything unfavourable that might
be apprehended, and to lay the ground work of the
beneficial tefults to which he had alluded, he Would
move their Lordllips, cs That an humble Addrefs be
prefented to his Majefty, praying that he would be
gracioully pleated to appoint Commiffloners to in-
quire into the prefent Rate of that part of the United
Kingdom called Ireland, and to order that the (aid
CommiSfioners do report the Rate of each county ;
and that the fame be laid before tlis Malay and the
two Houfes of Parliament." • •

On the queflion being being put ;
The Earl of LIMERICK role, and obferved that
as an Irilhman, he mutt decidedly oppofe the motion
of the Noble Earl, as likely to produce great mifchiefs.
Indeed, 'for a long time, he fhould not have fuppofed
the Noble Earl to have been (peaking of Ireland, till,
by further attention, and the frequent repetition cif
the word, he found the Noble Earl meant to apply
his obfervations to that part of the United Kingdom►
In the prefent inßance, he affured their Lordfhips
he would intrude upon their patience but a very Mork
time ; and, firit, he would obferve, that one of the
leading propotitions of the Noble Earl, as he under-
Rood its application, would go to deprive the Pro-
tenant Eflablifired Church of Ireland of its means of
fupport : he alluded to the dedruainn of tythes.—
Were there Lordfhips prepared to accede to any pro-
pofition that would tend to that ? With regard to
the Noble Earl's defcription of the (late of Ireland ;
with refpea to the condition of its peafan try, the
low prices of labour, he mull have made his cal-
culations upon what was the Rate of thole things
a great many years fusee. He had, from the con-
fideration, whether fortunate or unfortunate, he
could not fay, of living a great many years in Ire-
land, much perfonal apd local knowledge in thefe
refpeas. He could Co (sr controvert his tiatements.
And, with tefped to what may be matters of opi-
nion, his coneluflons were formed from Authorities,
very different from chafe referred to by the Noble
Earl. He knew fuU well, and was free to confefs,
that the fltuation of Ireland, in many of the parts

adverted to, was by no means fo favourable os 11 .
of this country; nor would they bear a comparii;.,,
but for this he would contend, that Ireland had beer;
for many years back, and Ilia continued in .r fete ,i
progrefive improvement and arneliorationord lr
there was every reafon to tape& would increa::2 eve')
day:• to adopt the meafure recommended by co.
Noble Earl, therefore, efpecially when the fituatiot
of that country, menaced by invation, and the Em.
pire at large embarked in an arduous and extensive
warfare, was confidered, would be impolitic and dec.
gerous is the highest degree. Hi; Lordthip don
fhortly adverted to the general nature of the Noble
Earl's addrefs to the Houfe, a great part of which
applied to the queftion of Catholic Emancipation ;
fobjett which had to recently, fo fully, and fo
perately been canvalred in that Houle, and folemnly
decided upon by their Lordthips. On that part of
the Noble Earl's fpeech, he thould not, therefore,
offer a tingle obfervation. He then adverted to
few of the Noble Earl's obfervations relpetting-
abfentee landlords, and particularly to a circum.
ftauce introduced into that part of his fpeeck, which,
it teemed admitted a very. different inference from
that drawn by the Noble Earl. He aeologifed to
their Lordatipa for this Ilion occupation of their
time ; for his part he felt it decidedly his duty to op.
pole the Motion.
The LORD CHANCELLOR was about to put
the question ; when
The Duke of NORFOLK role, and begged leave
to offer a few obfcrvations on the fubje6t. With
yelped to thole mifchievous effeds, which the Noble
Earl, who had ha (puke, teemed to apprehend, in
cafe the motion was agreed to, he confefFed no
Each apprehenfions prefented themfelves to his mind.
—With refried to the important fubjeft of tythes,
his Grace obferved, that finding the law in that re.
fpe6t coeval in this country, with the laws for the
conservation of every other kind of property, he
confidered there as entitled to equal regard. They
were the property of the church, to be refpeded as
fuch, and involved confiderations affeding the union
of church and Rate, which, he Milled, would al-
ways continue to fuppert each other. With rcfpeft
to what had been fail as a: ifing from the topic of
Catholic emancipation, he fully agreed that that
important fubje& had been fairly, fully, and coolly
difcuffed by the Route, and though he formed one of
a comparatively fmell minority, who thought it was
proper their Lordfizips thould go into a committee
on that fubjed, yet, he holed to the decifion of the
majority of their Lordfhips, and praftically mull
confider fuch decifion as rightly made. Yet he teem-
ed to think that, from thofe difeufflons, matter tranf-
pired, which tended to thew the expediency of fuch
an enquiry as his Noble Friend propofed. 4n fome
points of view, he difapproved of partial quotations
from authors ; they required a great portion of the
context, in order fully to ofcertain the fenfe of the
writer ; and one particularly, whom his Noble Friend
bad more than once (motet' that evening, corielly,
no doubt, one with whom be had the happinefs and
the honour to be long acquainted, the late Archdea-
con Paley, went on to fay, (peaking of the fubjea of
tythes, 'that which, in his mind, operated in a dif-
ferent way from what his Noble Friend feemed to
underfland it. Adverting to the hate of the Oa-
bathed religion in Ireland, he obferscedo there mill-.
ed, fotne years ago, that which should induce him to
think the fuperior clergy of that country highly re-
Prehentible. He alluded to the circumftences of
many perifhes of confkderable extent, and which paid
all the clerical dues, being not only without a cler-
gyman, but even without a church. He thought
the molt favourable epoch for redreffing many of the
grievances adverted to by his Noble Friend, as af-
fe&ing Ireland, was the oceafion of the adjustment
in rags, when Irelaud was relieved from the com-
mercial fetters of this country. A peculiarly favour-
able opportuuity was then prefented. With refped
to the queftion before the Houfe, he thought it was
one that demanded an opinion from fome of his Ma-
jelly's Minifters.
Lord HAWKESBURY obferved, the motion
under confideration was one which he fhould feel it
his duty to refill, were it only upon the ground of its
being'very ill timed: it alto involved confiderationo
which, under the prefent circumilances and lituation
not only of Ireland, but of the Empire at large,
would induce him to °hie& to it. With a Noble
Earl, he thought it would be produftive at pre-
fent of mifchievous effeas. With' him, he thought
that a great deal of the Noble Mover's fpeech was
applicable to the qiiellion of Catholic Emancipation;
which, with the Noble Duke, he thought had been
moll fully, fairly, and temperately confidered in that
Houfe, as much fo as any topic that ever came be-
fore Parliament ; and that being folemnly decided
upon, by a very large majority, not only of that, but
of the other branch of the legiflature ; he felt it un-
neceffary to offer a tingle oblervation upon all the re-
levant part of the M.ble Earl's fpeech. With refeeft
to. the important confideration of tythes, on which
the Noble Secretary, in the courfe of his °bitty*.
tions.- laid confiderable arefs ; he molt cordiily
agreed with the maim of the Noble Duke, that they
cunßituted property, and that of the molt facred
kind. Indeed, the Gentlemen alluded to by the No-
ble Earl, Meals. Emmett and M'Nevin, when they
were examined on Coe part of the government of Ire-
land, teemed to have given their evidence very ie4-
nuoufly upon that fulejed ; they, after giving their
opinions as to the st ilhes of the Irith peafantry, for
the abolition of tythes, went on to admit, that were
thole abolithed, the rents would be immediately
railed by the landlords, in a proportionate d•gree, fo
that the relevant fituation of the peafantry would,
fo far, remain the fame. In fad, to abola the tythes,
would be to rob the clergy ; they were their proper-
ty, and, in the eye of the law, equally facred with
every other defcriptian of property. The benefits of
them were, in fad, equally experienced, and enjoyed
by the land owners, as it was obvious that thefe, from
the confideration of their lands being liable to tythe,
purchafed them proportionably at a lefs rate ; and
this was a confideration, independent of the political
and religions.points of view in which the 113.0 mar
be confidered. which thould place them, equally with
every other fpecies of property, under the protedion
Qf the laws, and filch, be trolled, they would for
ever remain. In concluding, his Lordfhip alluded
to she very advanced period of the Seffion, and the
confequence of their attendance as highly improper
for the confideration of a fubjed of a nature equally
General and important, and which branched out into

fuch a variety of interefling details, an 3 which addi
ti^r4liv operwed upon his mind in inducing him to
decide apinli the Motion.
The E irl of SUFFOLK (poke in explanation,
anJ 9...tcd that his isL,o. did not go to the abolition of
he agreed, fhould be confidered as the
vof the Church. He adverted and corniced
me of the propofitions he had in the firli intlance
advanced, and referred to the aft of Elizabeth, which
recovnized the principle, and enjoined enquiries of
the kind through the medium of the Judges, who
were .0 report the refult of their enquiries to the
Crt•wn, and which he thought it v.-otild be well t•i
upon. Arier f,tne farther obfervations, the
was put, and decided in the negative, with-
can a divifion.
C.,mmittee of the la hole Honfe on the cafe of I
Dlr. jo.lice Fox, and alto that on Moore's Divorc e
Bill, was ordered to lit to-morrow. 1
Mr. Rickman (Secretary to the Speaker of the
Emile of Commas) prefented certain accounts from
the C,,mmillioners of roads and bridges in the High-
lands of Scotland, which were ordered to lie on the
table.—Adjourned.