Star.
London, England, 1822-03-02 00:00:00

mittee with this motion, which had been rejected on
a former occasion. One-of the arguments urged in
support of the maintenance of the present number of
Lords of the Admiralty was, that the Board, from
the time of its first establishment, had always con.
sisted of the same number; and that the constant

usage justified the adherence to the original form of
the institution. But he denied thatfrom its first foun-
dation the Board of Admiralty had always consisted
of the present number of junior Lords. The Board
was first instituted in the reign of William and Mary,
and he found that in 1702, 1706, and 1709, there

were but four junior Lords—(Hear).—ln 1714 and in
1717 there were five junior Lords, and on that scale
it remained up to 1775. Since that time he admitted
that there had always been six ; but surely a period
of forty-seven years would not be set up as a sufficient
argument for the continuance of offites now found to
be useless—(Ffear).—There might have been reasons
why the number of these Lords should have been in-
creased during the latter periods of our history, when
the force and number of our Navy was so much aug-
mented; but looking at the circumstances of the pre-
sent time, it must appear to every man that the mo-
ment was come when a reduction of the number might
be effected without prejudice to the public service.—
when the force employed in the Navy amounted
to 140,000 men, and the number of ships in commis-
sion to 1200, six Lords were found sufficient to con-
duct the business, it could not with any shew of reason
.be maintained that the same number were required

to conduct the business at picsent, when the number
of vessels in commission was reduced to 119, and the
number of men employed to 21,000—(Hear, hear).—
The Committee of Finance, in 1797, remarked upon
the constitution of this Board, that "during the con-
tinuance of the war it was not likely that the business
would allow of any reduction in the number of six
Lords, exclusive of the first Lord ; but that it would

be a proper subject for consideration whether, in a
time of peace, there might nt•t be such a dittinution
of public business as to allow of a reduction of the
number of the Board ?"—(:fear, heat).—The clerks,
on whom the great weight of the business necessarily
fell, had been dismissed with an unsparing hand, but
not one of the Lords had been reduced, because these
appointments were a convenient piece of patronage
for keeping up the influence of the Crown.' He would,
freely confess that his object in proposing this motion
was not more the saving of the 2,0001. a-year, than
the curtailing of the influence and patronage of the
Crown, partiaularly in that House,which was kept up
at an unnecessary expense to the Public—(Cheers).,
In 1817, the Noble Marquis objected to a motion on
this subject, on the ground_ that while a Committee
was sitting tip stairs, within whose province it would
fall to report on the subject, the question was prema-
ture ; but no sooner was the vote of the House Dl-
that occasion known to that Committee, than it de-
clared that it was precluded from me !Wing with this
topic by the vote of the House, which had decided
for the keeping up of the existing number. Another
argument which had been used for the keeping up of
this establishment was, that it was looked upon as
necessary for training young statesmen in habits of
public business, and fitting them for higher offices.
But any plain man like himself would be disposed to
think, that if there was any one office which more
than another required skill, knowledge and expe-
rience in those who were to discharge its duties, it
was that office to which was confided the manage-
ment and direction of the naval forces of the court-
try—(Hear). If lie put it on the ground of the re-
duction of the public business—if he put it on the
ground of the pledge of the Noble Marquis, that
.every possible reduction consistent with the safety
and regularity of the public business should be made;
lie appealed to every man in the House whether this
motion was not one which was entitled to their sup-
port'—(Hear, hear). He implored those Gentlemen
who thought fit to support the motion of his Hon.
Friend (Mr. C;lcraft) on the preceding night, from
their conviction 'of the necessity of an alleviation of
the burdens of the country, not to fall short now ; but
as they hai felt the necessity of calling for a reduc-
tion of that tax, to follow it up by voting for the re-
duction of every useless office, the maintenance of
which was made the ground of the demand fur the
full amount of these taxes. 'He concluded by moving,
as an Amendment, that the sum be .55,606/. ss. Id.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT said, he did not think the re-
ductions which the Noble Lord had boasted of being
effected were sufficient, for this simple reason, that
no reduction could be sufficient as long as any fur-
ther reduction could be made—(Loud cheers). He
was as anxious as the Right Hon. Gentleman (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) for the maintenance
of the public credit, and should therefore be lath to
encroach upon his Sinking Fund ; he should be very
sorry to see the income and expenditure of the coun-
try so nicely balanced as not to leave a surplus of
four or five millions applicable to that object. But
he called upon the Right Hon. Geatleman to do that
'which would, on bis conscience he believed, do more
to support public credit than any Sinking Fund
whatever ; namely, to shew a sincere disposition to
effect every possible reduction, in the expenditure—
(Cheers). His Hon. Friend said very truly that the
saving would he but small; but it was not the sum,
but the principle which he (Sir J. Sebright) supported
—(Cheers). He begged to remind Gentlemen, that
these junior Lords of the Admiralty, though they
could spend no more than 10001. a year, the amount
of their Warp out of the public purse, yet they could
vote away millions—(Loud cheering)—and were they
fit guardians of the public purse, en which they de-
pended for their salaries?—(Cheers). If six Lords
were really necessary, in GOD'S name let them be
re-
tained ; but could any man of common 'lease be,
brought to think th#t the same number . was neces-
sary now as had been_ foUnd adequate to the efficient
discharge of the heavy duties of the office during the
war ?—(Hear, hear).
Sir 6..COCKBVRN defended the present coml.,
tut= of the Board, oil the ground of the necessity.

Many k - they
Ora to Perform, Wining to the details of accounts
and other official particulars, which Natal Officers
general were not able to go into; and though Naval
Officers were necessary at the Boards, yet they wtte
not more so than Civilians; and he must say, that,,
in his opinion, during the last year, the Lay Lords
had been more useful in the discharge of the duties
of the office than the Naval Lords--(H'ear, hear).—
In searching the records of the office as far back as
the Revolution, they could find no instance of a Board
consisting of less than the present number of Lords.
He was aware that Beatson's Political Index, the work
from which he believed the Hop. Baronet had derived,
his informatioh., mentioned only four at some periods,
and five at others; but the documents in the office
spewed at no time a less number than six. He thought
himself as well, qualified, by his experience of the
duties of the office, as any man, to judge of the num-
ber of persons required to discharge them effectually,
and he solemnly assured the House, that he was firmly
convinced the present number was no more than was,
absolutely necessary—(Hear).—Gentlemen might not
perhaps feel disposed to give him full credit for the
assertion, but he did assure them upon his honour,
that lie would not say it if he,did not think it (Cheers).
Mr. BERNAL felt the highest respect for the cha-
racter both private and professional of the gallant
Officer, and it gave him pain therefore to differ from
him in opinion on the present occasion. In the Com-
mittee last year the office of Vice-Admiral of Scot-

lanA was defended as sacred from reduction, on as

strong a plea and asseveration of its necessity as these
two junior Lord,hips of the Admiralty; but the said
Vice-Admiral had at length struck his flag, and dis-
appeared from the Estimates of this year—(Hear,
and a laugh)—to the saving of 30001. a-year. A
sating of 20001. had been effected on these Estimates
by the dismissal of a number of clerks If that had
been found practicable on account of the decrease of
business, why could not these two Lords be as well
spared for the same reason ? for if there was less bu-
siness for the clerks, there must be much less for the
Commissioners.
Admiral SOTHERON agreed with his Honour-
able and gallant Friend (Sir G. Cockburn) that the
Board of Admiralty ought to consist of six members.
Mr. MARRYATT supported the amendment, on
the general principle that reduction was necessary,
and the House ought to manifest every disposition to
put the principle in force.
Lori ALTHORPE supported the motion of his,
Hon. Friend. Ile thought two Lords could. do the
business at the outports as well as three; and in cases
where there was a difference of opinion, it might be
referred to the First Lord of the Admiralty.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN declared himself of opinion

that the Lay Lords were necessary to the public ser-
vice. It had been suggested that a Lord of the Tre.i.
gory might be sent or to their assistance; but did the
Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bernal) who threw out this
idea recollect that the Admiralty had a jurisdiction
over life and death, and might send a warrant by
the post, signifying " shoot that Officer?" Suppose
a case of mutiny : Hon. Gentlemen might know what
that was—(A laugh).—He was himself attacked once
by six hundred mutineers at Sheerness, and he re-
sisted them all—(A laugh):—Lord Hood and the late
Lord Gardner, when Lords of the Admiralty, had
very heavy and important duties to discharge; but
if it were found that there was not sufficient employ-
ment for the, Lay Lords, " for GOD'S rake," said the
Hon. Baronet, " let them be turned out!"
Mr. GIPPS thought, in time of peace, one of the.
Lay Lords might be spared.
' The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER de-
fended the original grant ; at the same time he again
explained that the superannuation of clerks was to be
provided for by keeping back 5 per Cent. out of their
salaries ; at present, therefore, the salaries were voted
to their full extent. With respect to the higher offices
of State, on the saliries of which a reduction of 10
per Cent. had been recommended, it had been thought
most expedient that the reduction should not be made
as a permanent measure, but that, by the order of his
Majesty, a deduction should be made commensurate
to the exigencies of the State—(hear).
Mr. ELLISON said he should vote for the amend-
ment, as the house should lose no opportunity of re-
deeming the pledge they had given of economy.
Sir C. COLE, in giving his vote, said he was actu-
ated by a sense of duty to his constituents, which
controuled his attachment to the profession which he
honoured beyond anything in the world—(Hear).—
He felt forcibly, that if the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty, and six other Lords could manage the affairs
of the Navy in time of war, the same number could
not be necessary now—(Hear, hear).
Mr. LITTLETON said, he should support the
amendment, because the essence of the Noble Lord's
(Lord Londonderry's) plan Was economy, and i( it
was not enforced by the votes of the House it was
quite nugatory—(Hear, hear, bear). He had formerly
voted against a similar motion, but he thought it not
inconsistent in the present altered situation of the
country to give it his support—Wear, hear).
Mr. EGERTON wished for the , retrenchment of
all unnecessary and expensive establishments, as the
best means of supporting public credit. Ile was con-
vinced that wherever a saving could be made it
aught to be made.
Sir G. WAILRENDER should not do justice to
himself, or his late colleagues, if he did not state some
facts to the Hour.' One of le duties be bad to per-1
form was, the duty of paying the sum of £500,000
to the Pensioners of Greenwich Hospital, and that
duty devolved on a junior Lord. For the first two
,years he had sitten at the Admiralty, he had only
been absent for two months. By the office preventing
his attention to his private affairs, be had been com-
pelled to relinquish it, after be had held it with much
satisfaction for five years—(Laughter).
Mr. GRENFELL hoped that the Hon. Baronet
would hate proved that the same number of Lord%
of the Admiralty was necessary in -time of peace asl
in war. He gave his cordial suppomte die savtA9a.

these VOW d
diroc. t his observations. First, as to
not disposed to differ. from. the Bork Heat
the lesallness of the saving was no tolliOsi for not
making it : if:20001. of the public ntossei-"dnidd bit
saved, it ought to be done.; bet the *NO* may cif
judging upon the matter was to balance the money
against the advantages the Public derived from the
expenditure ; 'for though there might be a specious
argument for economy, there migtt also bt tad
reasons for incurring the charge:.-(Hear, hear-).-
9n this occasion he attached cousiderabeeinspertance
to the opinion of his gallant Friend (Sir John 04-
borne),. who was a professional man, and a man of
honour, and who would not give an opinion, unless
ina
rceo gairesi b
conscientious
the
sbeelief that what he recommended
was
public service. He wished the
House to see what saving was likely to be made by
adopting the measure a hick the Hon. Baronet recom-
mended. In the affairs of private life, matters could
.never be so arranged that the persons having the ma-
nagement of them could be always at their post; and .
such was tit:re:l4in piblic offices, like that now pro-
posed to be reduced. He did not, therefore, conceive
that the reduction of 2009/. a-year in this office could •
produce a benefit equal to the disadvantage which the
public service must experiencefrom it ; particularly'
when he considered the nature of the service to be
performed, and the advantage of having two Boards
instead of one. Such a saving could net be in any re-
spect consistent with the principles of economy, com-
pared to the advantage of having the business of the
office conducted with due attention and energy. This
question had been so much agitated out of doors, that
it would be a relief to his Majesty's Government tb
give up the point ; but he never would agree to a plan
of economy merely for the purpose of making an im-
pression out of doors. He caisld have no personal in-
terest in this question, and he viewed it merely as one
of public utility, withceit considering any advantages
the Ministers of the Crown might derive from it.—
Gentlemen had talke3 of the great increase of the in-
fluence of the Crown, but he never could agree to any
such doctrine as that which was so continually held
forth, as that every person acting under the Crown was
actuated by sordid feelings. He would always repel
every insinuation of the kind, and deny that Ministers
were actuated by such sordid motives—(Hear, hear).
He protested against the insinuation that they had
any feelings of the kind. There never was a period in
our history when the influence of the Crown was so
small as at present, and when popular influence was
so great over the House of Commons-as at the pre-
sent moment—(Hear, hear). He therefore protested
against the principle laid down, that the Members of
that }louse were bound 'to vote for the purpose of reo
ducing the influence of the Crown, and he conceived
the Members ought fairly to look at what the influence
in question ottgliCto be. Ile had.already objected to
the motion reiperting the Scotch Burghs, because its
object appeared to be that of erecting a species of
Reform that would injure the Constitution; and he
should object to the present motion on the same
ground. The amount was not, he knew, to be des-
pised, but still it could not not be considered of great
moment to the count: y. Even in the tines in which
they lived, and feeling a sincere anxiety to support
every Reform comi,tent with the public welfare, he
could not agree to such a motion. He could not as-
sent to a proposition which was founded on a sup-
posed excess of the influence of the Crown in that
House, unless such an influence was proved to exist.
It would afford a precedent pregnant with danger,
and therefore he should vote against it.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT said there was nothing further
from his intention than to impute a sordid feeling to
the Noble Lord, who was the last man in the country
to whom he should attribute such a motive. He had
imputed nothing to the present Admini stratiou as dis-
tinguished from any other, but he had observed that
every Administration had a desire to keep patronage
in its hands. Ha question were brought directly be-
fore the House whether the present Ministry should
be removed or no, there was no man who would more
decidedly vote for their continuance than himself.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had
•understood the Hon. Baronet to speak of the holders
of office as giving their votes under influence.
Sir J. SEBRIGHT said the holders of inferior and
sinecure places were naturally under influence in their
voting, though he did not mean to apply his remarks
to any individual.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he could
not accept any compliment at the expense of those
with whom lie acted—(Hear, hear).
Mr. S. WORTLEY said he was sorry to interrupt
the dialogue of the Noble Lord and the Hon. Baronet
--(A laugh).—He wished to explain, that in voting
for the motion he did not do so on the supposition
that the Crown had too much patronage, but simply
on the ground of economy, and because he was not
convinced that the business of the Admiralty could
not be done by fewer Lords than were now.proposed.
It was their duty to make every reduction that could
be effected consistently with the safety of the country;
and, on the best judgment he could form, he con-
ceived the safety of the country was not implicated
in the existence of these offices—(Hear).
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said a few words in reply ; and
expressed his gratification at the support he had rt-
ceived from his gallant II iend Sir C. Cole.
The Committee proceeded to divide on the Reso-
lution. While strangers were excluded from the gal-
lery, the loud and continued cheers which echoed
through the House, announced the defeat of Ministers,
and on their re-admission the numbers were—
For the Resolution .128
Against it., lB2
MAJOSITY mutest JiINISTLIIS --S 4 !!! •
On the re-admission of strangers to the gallery, there was mash
noise la the body of the House. &tire it had subsided,
Sir J. OSBORN moved for the sum of A": 1,304. 12s. 6d. to
defray the Wades of Olken and Clerks in the Navy Pay.nfice
for MS.
(the Chairman) put the question witk ma.
and was about to declare how it bad ken
Mrs*. RitynodOhqueitD7ll,N es
"NICT rose, tad declared it was impossible

-

pre pitted. The tegtrar votes had been drawn op to Ito silit it: . •, . ,
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..fone Mao soak eapdb:e Mr, GOOtH, &Nth he baiter oat of thoifile
linjo!ity lb ilweerOf the Belt Tarot*, oy *Moe •
ivy proposed in the mode suggested in the Committee last neklilK3 . . . iblifpnOwilkik °Noes t
ive year ; and the first vote which he had to propose was, tilr'M
~...• ' . , ~ 4 Rai !dole. ,ovtoottii and: oscastona. should vote fop the ,motion: -
ild .. That the sum of 57,60411. Ss. id. be granted to his Mainly three _
_.
_. .1114- %• , Optiontbi.,A.ct of roelln - Thf 'kits is alio_ Nstigititx • • 0 •
ic- for defraying the salariti and contingent expenses of the Ads& extent to COSIIMITIO'.II, 011 illtairMdollll, if Lb,. the Hon. Baronet sot fek iiii. .Waitlit
tatty Office for the year ending the 6th of January, ISO."
et number wove " - 1-- duty, '44 terra or as witieb he bad Irsin brososheistwaps
!rn Sir M.W. RIDLEY rose for the purpose of moving, the coargoettslistist 16W:till, fretis the. want of :a !Which he misted on two grOttedit...4*eitthe
.; '. . ' .
lit_ as an Amendment, a saving in this grant, by the re- sutEciatt'unpstest to coei4tittne a Board% both ;Anon.. of econov ; and secondly, and pore cod'. +r • .
on
duction of the two junior Lords of the Admiralty.— The proposed stdeetion•wonld take away two of the theigsoa . that the -abolnien ef. Asian/lath. ' .• 1' .v
it, He thought the distress of the country at the present Lay Lords. Now he had no hesitation in saying that produce a salutary diminatioss of the inlbeneofef . •
his moment a sufficient excuse for his troubling the Com- there were many of the duties which they were re- Crown in Parliament. To these twripolnab*4llNndd
.._ mittp.. with Oh:. .......*:,.... ..h:-.1, h.A 1........... ...a...5..A nn .....:..hl to ..;..... f... __t_...__ ._ -t-- _l__—'l- -P • ... J!_-.. it. ...1.......r.0.:...... Ilt___, __ -- . . 7.2 •14. •••,_V. if _.l:.

io vita