Star.
London, England, 1830-06-19 00:00:00

legal patroltage. The bill would only affect a portion of the nree..
• ire changes. hut -it would make a good preparation for all the rest.
NtAxwr.J.A. was happy to hear that the present bill was
but the forerunner of others for the improvement of the adminis-
tration of law in Scotland. He should, therefore, support it. When
the time should en ice, he would not object to an increase of the va.
larks of Scotch Judges, if it should appear that such increase would
he necessary to secure that high talent for which the Scotch Judges
were diatinguished. He thought the country was deeply indebted
to the learned lord for his great attention to this important subject.
—( hear, hear.)
Mr. HUAI E said he was confident the learned lord had removed
coach objection to the bill by the prudence with which he had con.
ducted the measure, and was well entitled to the thanks of the coun.
try. He thought government had acted inconsistently with their
rofessions of economy, by appointing Mr. Abercrombie Chief Baron
et Scotland at a time that they were determined to diminish the
ieiniber of Judges in the Court. Certainly, no person could be
;!ore estimable than air. Abercrombie, but it was generally allowed
that the appointment was a useless expense. if the learned lord
would bring in bills to diminish the expense and delay of litigation
in Scotland. he would confer an incalculable benefit on Scotland.
Mr. BROUGHAM bore testimony to the perseverance of the
Lord Advocate—to the disinterestedness he had evinced—and it was
to be hoped that the learned lord would not be a loser by such con.
duct. (Hear.)
The LARD ADVOCATE said, he wished to follow up the
remarks of the right hon. Bart. (Sir R. Peel); lie should pay the
amplest attention to this subject—and as regarded further improve-
ments, he would pay every attention to any suggestions or com-
munications that might be made to him. lie thought more he
could not be required to say.
The House then again went into a committee on the bill The
two first clauses called forth a great deal of desultory conversation,
in which Mr. Ferguson, Sir R. Peel, and the Lord Advocate, took
part. They were, however, agreed to. Several others were adopted.
After some explanatory remarks,
Sir J. GRA HAM suggested, that the Procurators, as the Admi-
ralty Court was to be abolished, do practice in the Court of Session
and Sheriff's Courts.
The LORD ADVOCATE admitted that the parties required
something in the way of compensation, and he therefore would not
object to their practising in the Court of Session and the higher
courts, but not in the Sheriff's Court.
Sir GEORGE CLERK observed, that to allow them to practice
in the Sheriffs Courts would be more injurious to the existing prac-
titioners in such courts, than the alteration would be benelictal to
the Procurators.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, as the Admiralty causes were to be
transferred to the Sheriff's Courts, the proposition seemed only na-
tural to ask that the Procurators should be allowed to follow their
business.
Mr. HENRY DRUIII3IOND thought the proposition would
work injustice; he should, therefore, support the learned lord.
SirJ. GRAHAM acquiesced in the arrangement proposed by
the Lord Advocate, and withdrew his clause.
Mr. BROUGHAM, on the clause respecting Juries, recom-
mended that written pleadings should be got rid of as much as pos-
sible, the ends of justice would thereby be considerably forwarded.
I There was much bus at the Bar.] I wonder, said Mr. B. those gen-
tlemen do not retire to some of our rooms, there are plenty of them,
and carry on their chat there; and then we shall not plague them,
and they will not plague us. Our Scotch law question is a very dry
one ; it cannot interest them ; they had better retire, and let us have
our Scotch law question quietly and orderly to ourselves. It is of
no interest whatever to them ; but it is of great interest to us—(a
laugh)—and of great importance to Scotland. The learned gentle.
man then proceeded with his comments on the present condition and
;ieculiarity of many of the law courts, in the presence of about forty
members.
The LORD ADVOCATE admitted that the conduct of jury
trials merited attention, and said that it was under consideration
whether, under certain circumstances, juries might not be extended
to questions of small debts.
Mr: BROVG HA3I said he doubted not that no long time
would elapse before written pleadings were abolished, and juries in.
troduced into the sheriffs' courts.
On the clause for abolishing the Commissary Court of Edin-
burgh--
Mr. FEhGUSON objected to it, and said he would move as an
amendment, that the Commissary Court should be maintained with
some modification, or what was nearly the same thing, he would
move, that the clause should be omitted altogether.
The LORD ADVOCATE defended the clause, as being the
most important contained in the bill, for these was no court in Scot-
land attended with more expense than the Commissary Court.
Mr. BROUGHABI said that this explanation removed his prin-
cipal objection to the clause.
After a few words from the LORD ADVOCATE and Mr.
FERGUSON, the amendment was negatived without a division.
The clause was then agreed to.
The other clauses were then agreed to, the house resumed, and
the report was ordered to be received on Monday next.
TIIE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE RILL.
On the motion that this bill be recommitted,
Mr. JONES said, that before three additional judges were
created at Westminster Hall. inquiry should be made as to whether
the business could not be transacted by compelling plaintiffs to go
into the Court of Exchequer, which had scarcely any busines at all.
lie found fault, not only with the abolition of the Vi'elch judge.
ships, but he also objected to the monstrous power of consolidating
counties, a power which he was surprised to see proposed by an hon.
gentleman, who had hitherto professed liberal principles. It was a
power which ought not to be entrusted, particularly in these days,
to the executive. It would be a great grievance to compel the in.
habitants of Wales to go to the enormous expenses attending the
English courts, when, by the present system they can sue at a far
less expense in their own courts. In Wales they had no such things
as sham pleas, for the party putting them on record would be at
once called upon to verify iheni by affidavit. If tbeWelch equitable
judicature were to be done away with, how, he would ask, could
legatees in Wales recover the property accumulated by their an-
cestors ? Or were they to wait for the English Chancery Court refor.
!nation, in order to be placed in possession of their rights ?
What he would also ask was to be done with unfinished causes ?
Another objection he had to urge was, that by this consolidation of
counties a man would no longer be tried near the place where he
had committed the offence, and in many instances he would be
taken for trial to a strange place, to be tried before a Judge and
before a Jury whose language he did not understand. Most of the
counties in North and South Wales were against this bill, and he
therefore hoped that before such a serious change were adopted
Ministers would pause and give still further consideration to the
measure.
The motion was then agreed to.
On the motion that the house should then resolve itself into the
committee,
111 r. JONES moved as an amendment, that the house should re-
solve itself into the committee that day six months.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said, that when Government attempted
any useful reformation, they met with serious difficulties at every
step. The only objection he had to the bill was, that it went to
create threee new Judges In this he thought they were legis.
biting too precipitately, for the honourable member for Knares.
borough (Mr. Brougham) had a bill in progress for the purpose of
establishing local Courts of Judicature throughout the country,
which Courts might have the effect of superseding the necessity
of having any additional Judges. Before we appointed three
new Judges, it was necessary to see that those already in exist.
ence had enough to do ; whereas it was notorious that the Court
of Exchequer was a retreat for aged gentlemen, or persons of
known incompetency, who yet had sufficient interest to get
there. If as efficient Judges were placed in the Exchequer, and if
the business were equally distributed, even by compulsion, it would
soon be ascertained that there was no necessity for the appointment
of new judges. They were in the very infancy of legal reform ;•for
it appeared that in the last three years there had been tried 5,660
causes, and the verdicts, as it appeared by the posteas, were for
065,0001. while the costs, as they appeared from the same docu.
ments, were over one million.--(Hear, hear, hear.) This proved
that they were beginning at the wrong end, and that by this bill
they were rather giving patronage to the crown, than making justice
easy of access to the people. If the local courts were to be adopted,
the amount of business in the superior courts would be most
materially diminished, and of course additional judges would be
unnecessary.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR said the judees had much to do be-
sides their attendance in the Courts in IVestminsterliall. They
had to go circuit, and to attend the Old Bailey, and their du-
ties were never better performed.—(Hear, hear.) The ad.
ditional judge was not an innovation—there were formerly five
judges in each of the Courts The Fudges must be appointed by
the Crown ; but he was confident their appointment was not made
an object of patronage. He thought:the bill war judicious and
highly expedient, and it should havellis support.
Mr. C. DAV EN PORT thought the learned gentleman, 31r. Har.
vey, had fully shewn that the bill was premature, and should not be
decided on before it was determined whether or not local jurisdiction
should be established. The bill set out by a minatement, that it
was expedient to abolish the separate jurisdiction of Cheshire. Of
this assertion no proof was attempted. The separate jurisdiction
had existed eight centuries, to the perfect satisfaction of the
inhabitants making justice cheap and expeditious. (Hear.) It was
also of advantage to the neighbouring counties, as was proved by
petitions from Liverpool, Warrington, and Manchester. The hon.
and learned gentleman (the Attorney General) had said, he did not
intend to unite the county of Chester with any other; he did not
doubt that the lion. and learned gentleman would keep his word ;
but what security was there thathe should keep his place? He did
not suppose that he would leave his place to conic again to the op-
position idde. of the house; but he might leave his place for a higher,