Star.
London, England, 1823-05-13 00:00:00

Constitution which

..as Weft to
_Pop
griY tdan could ipliettainA9)9.4
-/ TranaßliisiOn of Aim Notikatfd tifftt tl
sign! of #itiicable intercourse, there' could
Ailltl net be war, or that Fraii4 was hot pn
ward as the agent of these Sovereignh and that fhot
ikas bound to conduct it upon principles agreeable to
them. Could any one doubt, after the speeches de-
livered in the French Chamber, that France was pin%
'suing the policy of Louis XlV.—the union of France
and Spain, which England ought, by all means in
ber power, to exert herself to prevent? He was sa-
tisfied that nothing could consolidate the Bourbon
Government so effectually as the union of France and
Spain ; and twenty days of successful war would do
' more for the French Government than all which had
been hitherto done. He contended that, from all
the correspondence between the French, Austrian,
and Russian Ministers, and from the Proclamation
of the Duke d'Angouleme, it was apparent that they
all considered France only as the agent of those conspi-
rators, who avowed principles incompatible with the
peace and safety of Europe. He understood that, in
reply to a question asked in another place, it was
stated that there was an army on the Vistula, but
whether great or small he could not say. He
was surprised at this answer, when he considered
the considerable expense at which this country
maintained Ministers abroad. He bad heard that
the army on the Vistula consisted of 120,000 men,
well provided with everything necessary to take the
field. This being the case, he thought their Lordships
ought to call upon his Majesty's Ministers to state
what representations had been made to them with re-
spect to this army, and the Austrian army in the Mi-
lanese, which was ready to act when required. He also
thought their Lordships ought to have information re-
specting the Prussian army on the frontier nearest to
France. If it were true that these forces were sta-
tioned in these places, could it be doubted for a mo-
ment that they were there for the purpose of pro-
moting the common object? It was said that he
wished for war. No man dreaded war more than he
did, and no man would abstain more than he would,
provided he could do so without surrendering the na-
tional honour. No man felt more than he did-the
miseries of war. No man in his time had witnesseJ
more cf the calamities of war than he had; and he
now must b.l expected to wish that the remainder of
his life, which must be near its close, should be
passed in peace rather than in war ; but when he saw
the measures which were taken, and the dangers to
which this country was exposed, he must say, that as
this country had not remonstrated, he would rather
now engage in the struggle than suffer the honour of
this country to be tarnished. He was satisfied that,
taking into consideration the state of the French Ca-
binet,
the uncertainty of success in the invasion of
Spain, and the certainty of being opposed by Great
Britain, would have prevented the war, if England
had at Verona assumed the tone of manly dignified
remonstrance. He considered the success of the'
.French in Spain as more injurious to this country
than the success of Bonaparte would have been, as
he, if he had succeeded; could not rely upon those
'-whom he had subdued, and therefore would not ven-
ture to act on so extended a scale of iniquity as these
Sovereigns, whose thrones had similar foundations,
and which could only be supported by driving tioni
every corner of the Continent everything haVing the
semblance of liberty. The Noble Lord having re-
probate 1 the policy of Ministers towards Naples,
Piedmo it, and Spain, concluded by moving for the
Papers he had enumerated in the course of his speech.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL then rote.—He certainly
should oppose the motion of the Noble Earl, because
he thought that nee Parliamentary ground bad been
mace out ; but, at the same time, he trusted that he
should give to the questions proposed by the Noble
Earl such answers as would satisfy their Lordships
that there was no indisposition on his part to give
the Noble Earl the information required, if there had
been made out any Parliamentary ground for the
production of the Paperi. The first piece of infor-
mation asked for was relative to a vessel captured in
the West Indies by the French vessel Jean Bart. He
did not stand up there as the apologist of France;
but where justice was due he would not deny it; and
in this instance he must state, in justice to France,
that as soon as. the French Government was made
acquainted with the circumstance by this .Govero-
- the greatest anxiety was manifested on their
part to explain to this country that they had• no
knowledge of the transaction other than what the
from the public papers ; but it did not rest
here, for the French Minister gave Sir C. Stuart a
most distinct assurance that no orders had been is-
sued by the French Admiralty to capture either ves-
sels bearing the Spanish or any other flag. This Go-
vernment still wishing to obtain as much information
as possible, applied to the English commanders on
the West India station, and they reported that there
was in the %Vest Indies a French squadron; that the
commanders treated the flags of all nations with re-1
spect ; but that the vessel captured was a Spanish
letter of marque-i-that she first fired into the Jean
Bart, which returned the fire, and ultimately suc-
ceeded in capturing her (Hear, hear.) He should
say but a word or two with respect to the Proclansa.l
tion issued by the Provisional Government in Spam'
This Government had no correspondence orcomm&l
nication with that Government ; and the French Go-1
vernment in the most solemn manner disclaimed all
participation in that Proclamation. With respect to
the two other points upon which the Noble Earl re-
quired information ; first, as to the communications
from Austria, Russia, -and Prussia, relative to their
making common cause with France in the invasion
of Spain ; and secondly, as to the assemblage on their
frontiers of Russian, Austrian, and Prussian armies.
Before he gale any answer to these points, he must
beg leave to say a word or two upon what bad fallen
from the Noble Earl, with respect to what had been
said by a Right Han. Friend of his in another place,
who was only anxious to do justice to himself, and
who would be the last man to deny to the Noble Lord
the justice due to him for his feeling upon that occa-
sion; and he was satisfied that if his Right Honour-
able Friend were placed Opposite to the Noble Earl,
there .would, after the explanation given, not be the
least difference of opinion; but the Noble Earl did at
that time hold out the language of caution, and the
language of prudence, to avoid those measures in
which we were then engaged, and which ultimately
led to the glory of this country; but he was satisfied

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aes;ftings4/4-iiouts14114,10,1":1: tesecattit°ininbetween
thSePadinffeiLLTBbetanweengPaiaa :4411: tiat'l
a iovasiirof Spain (hear.) country at that period and now ; and had iittorel
the opinions of the Noble t4at.,he was justified in maintaining, alihograh Oe.fek
his opinions then with for 4pain at that period, that we should be sell yis.
onions now with his con- tious of entering into a war in her behalf. Now-}e
duct now. He would put It to the Noble Earl, was begged their Lordships to attend to thet.ittife of oil
he, with his opinions as they were now, prepared to argument, as contrasted with that Noble Lawftst,
give effect to them in the only way in which it could gument in this day, for involving us in a way. with
be given to them ? for open that alone the question France in•favourof Spain, without being able toil,
of peace or war hinged. In 1808, he had no doubt her the slightest assistance as things now stooto~
that the Noble Earl felt as strongly as any man the That socli mast he result of following the adoict
atrocity of the invasion of Spain ; that he felt for the of that Noble Earl he bad no hesitation to assert,
sufferings and privations of the Spaniards, and that If our pul,cy set us at war with France, he "old
he felt what every man in this country must feel far ,look the danger full in the face, and iesolve to aier
a nation struggling in the sacred cause of liberty; the Spaniards effectually, and this it oas imitosikao
but the Noble Earl had at . that time exercised his to do,except we sent an army into Spain. TIT Now
prudence, his wisdom, and his caution, to dissuade us' Lord had next asserted that it was ours uty tofu"
from embarking in a struggle out of which we came held out a menace to France, so as to induce her to
triumphant. He asked any man, either civil or mi- desist from her attempted interference. A royaori
litary, could Spain at that time resist France, as she might render war unavoidable. You must be pre:
was then in the plenitude of her power—having al. pared for the latter if you had resolved upon the4isi,
most all Europe at her command, and compelling the He could not help thinking that our embarking id
countries through which her armies passed to support the war on the side of Spain would render the ow
them? He would answer, no; and that the true po- more popular in France than it now was. If the nate
licy of this country was to assist her, and to prevent of things rendered it necessary for us to go to war
France from acquiring any additional power in the did that Noble I,ord.really believe that the capture
Peninsula. To what, then, it might be asked, was of Martinique or the wilding of a fleet to crtilxe a•-
the success of Spain to be attributed? Ile would the merchant vessels in the Channel or in the Medi.
answer, it was to the position of his Noble Friend, the terranean, would be sensibly felt after a fortnight fud
'puke of Wellington, in Portugal; and it was to his passed over, so as to induce France to relinquish a
exertions that Spain was indebted for her freedom, great object she had asserted so solemnly was es
and not to the sympathy of the Noble Earl, who tial to her repose? These were ideas too antiquated
wished to dissuade the Government from putting to be supposed capable of influencing France in ter
forth its energies. But the Noble Earl said, circum- conduct towards Spain, when, if at.: reliance was to
'stances had taken place which he had not content- be placed on the expression of sentiment in the debates
plated, and that he thought Bonaparte would not in the French Chamber of Peers, mere than one pet.
think of other conquests hefOre he had accomplished son there had, with an Ultra loyal spirit, talked on
his object in S iain. Nor woul•-I he, ii he bad not well the subject of the views of France on Spain-as if
known that Spain, united and supported by a-British they were about to realise all the views of Louis XIV.
army, could not be conquered, and he went to other and the objects of the Family Compact. Such a per.
countries to make up for his loss of reputation. When son would naturally say, you may take a ship ova
be stated to the Noble Earl that the French had no fleet of our merchantmen, or even a colony, it shall
ground in Spain except what was covered by her not prevent our obtaining our object, which is of in-
army; and when, so far back as 1811, he ventured finitely more importance. It would be worse than an
to predict the success of Great Britain, he wished that insult to France to say to her, we will go to war with
the language of the Noble Earl on that occasion you without taking any steps to make our interference
should not be forgotten. It was true, that after the effectual. It was like spitting in her face, and shewing
noble defence made at Torres Vedras, the opinions of that we were angry and could do nothing else to vett
the Noble Earl were altered; but to 1812, although our spleen. And yet the Noble Lord would not
the Noble Earl was not prepared to withdraw the hesitate to plunge us in a war without any object
army from the Peninsula, yet the whole tenour of his justify our departure from the safe line of peace.—
speeches, and of his conduct was, if he might be al- In the whole history of this country he knew of ne
lowed the expression, to throw cold water upon the individual who had gained a great character in war
whole transaction, and to represent the Government who was not a lover of peace, from a knowledge of
as over-sanguine in their assistance to Spain ;* and, the difficulties of a state of war. Such a man wouldsay,,
in short, that success could not be expected. The remain then at peace until you have a cause wonky
Noble Earl said, the whole force of this country was of you. ‘Vhatever might be the general sentiment,
'in Spain. Where, he would ask, could it be better he was far from complaining of it; but the state ia'
employed? Spain, from its local advantages, was which we were ought to be examined. Let them*
selected as the theatre upon which we must contend look to the address alluded to by the Noble Lori,
for the peace of Europe. He would not say that the and it would be found that it was there said we'p
peace of Europe was completed in Spain; but he on with the war because we could not possibly mi‘
must say that it was begun there. The victory at peace. Hence the Ministers had resolved to mike
Salamanca encouraged Russia to come forward, and war in Spain, because there it could be most dee.
the victory at Vittoria encouraged the Allies again tual. Now, he would ask if it was not the fact that
to exert themselves; but to the exertions of England the bearing of all these arguments went to prove
in Spain was to be attributed the general pacification. the reverse from the inference he then drew, in cola
Before he entered into what passed at the Congresses at Sequenie of tie altered situation of Spain at present
Vienna and Verona, he should comment upon what contrasted, with her condition in 1808? Its situatias
had fallen from the Noble Earl, with respect to a de- was altogether different now; her's was a divided po-.
claration of a Right Hon. Friend of his in another pulation, consisting of those who supported and those
place, that the interference of England had the effect who hated her Constitution. There was too an equal
of preventing the Allies froth issuing a joint declara- degree of enthusiasm on the part of one and theotbew'
tion.of war. The Noble Earl expressed great surprise This was a most important consideration; for wir
that this
.Government was not aware that Spain no longer embarked with the whole populatiewek
wraild Thom Itt- ptominent part in the discussions at Spain against France, as we did before, but with OM
Verona.: 'What he (Lord Liverpool) had said to their half at least as favourable to the cause consecrated,
LorashiPs, and what he would say now was, that he by the banners of Religion. The cause too was dit.;
knew the affairs of Spain would be discussed; but he
.ferept—it was the cause of the Government of Spain,
did not think they would form a prominent part in with the King of Spain nominally at their head ; but:
the discussions ; in proof of which opinion he Would they would not say, whilst they advised our embark.
refer Noble Lords to the conduct of the British Go. ing in all those difficulties for their sake, that it was:
vernment. He was ready to admit that when the for the real interests of Spain. In 1808 too we were
Duke of Wellington left this country the question at war—in 1823 we were at peace. The mode $:
between Russia and the. Porte was expected to form carrying on the war too would be proved to be d'
the prominent part in the discussions at Verona ; and ferent. When Bonaparte carried on the war in Spain,
.1
as a proof of that, the 13ritish Minister at the Porte he made it support itself; as he went on he drew his,
was requested by the Emperor of Russia and King of supplies for the army out of the country, which coat
Prussia to come to Verona for the purpose of render- him nothing.' War supported war. Now.. the Papi
ing effectual services by his mediation and his infor- of France was the very reverse. She paid for every
, matiou upon the subject, and the British Minister article which she used. France was thus exhaintlik
did go to Verona. He 'would again say, that there herself, whilst we were in reality husbandinge‘'.'
was no joint declaratioo of war; and no act -on the resources by cultivating peace. The Nobki LIN
POO of krance or the Allies could have led this coun- had argued that we should go to war, lest son's*. '
try to believe that war must necessarily follow. He Goo knows what, should -force us to go to
would admit that Instructions had been sent by the Now, in the first place, this GOD knows what
four PourFrot4Oleir Ministers at Madrid, and he did never happen; and in the next place, he held
not mean to May. 'that all which was done by these when we did go to war, if it was necessary se met
. Powers indicated a disposition on their part to con- that we should go to war with effect. He wavier
dema the Spanish Revolution, and all persons con- taking the present good offered. He saw no remit
netted with it, and that they sheaved no disposition to to be apprehensive that we, a nation so brave
enter into war at last ; but all they had done at Ve- powerful, could not enjoy the blessings of peace '
rona was. of a defensive nature- -all their engage- out any, apprehensions, should a war break tatty, ..
5
meets to support France were contingent. The con- ;the consequences. Look not to a 'short or a tkajill
tiogencies were—first, if France should be attacked i war, which would be finished in a campaign. -Ifthe .
by Spain, or Spain should attempt to disseminate re- sword were once drawn from theitcabbard it-isem
volutionary principles; secondly, in case any violence difficult to say when it would again be sheothed4 lisi
should be offered to any of the Royal Family ; and let us be prepared to meet it like men when's* le
thirdly, in case.of an attempt to change the dynasty. came. This was the view his Majesty% Goverdthrt.
These were the three contingencies, in the event of had taken of the question.. It was their wish*pees •
which the Allies bound themselves to assist France; serve peace and notoo excite war, iii order that *
but up to this day, as far as he (the Earl of Liver- might reap the profits of it. Much-bad been Mid 4
pool) knew, there was no other engagement on the those who iniquitously had combined to. invoices •
part of the Allies to make common cause with Europe a rigorous despotism, and .break down. err ,
France. When he said this, he did not mean to deny liberty. But he would tell the Noble Lord, if thole,
that all the acts of the Allies amounted to a moral were these dangers on one hand, these were dastg#
condemnation of Spain; but he denied that the break- on the vier which were hardly less alarming, 71100
ing op of all diplomatic intercourse, however un- werg Calpagcrous tendency to introduce pelolll
wise, and however inconvenient, - must necessarily changes ood revolutionary systems, and whiok.ealtit
be folloWed by a declaration of war.--As to the mind mow equally great. This was the sane of sla
questions which had been put to him upon the
.objections 'he had to the principles laid dowirit-tbr
rumours that an Irmo was assembling on the Vis- Noble Lord, and consistently with this view' Or
tula, and that the Anstrians, who had evacuated subject he could not think ofaciediag to the Ingu,m
Naples, had halted in the Milanese, he-believed.that of the Niable.Earl—(Cheer4 . _-. ' . la- i...
these had not been 'misrepresentations.. There was . -Lord HOLLAND considered that oneirait 4.1g11r -
no militia to imagine that in so-assembling their Noble Lord's speech was a triumphant hiswiner°ll'
troops on the frontiers the Allies had any improper the. eminent successes of the late war; asElboto
motives ; they had assembled their troops where they maining part was a most math-dinar?, topic eo'b*
had an undoubted right to assemble them, namely, addressed to a British House of ParltaMen_-_„t—thst
on their own territory. He was not the apologist of colonies, ships,-and money, .were nothing; m1"1
France or of-ber policy ; but he certainly thought to talk of the wooden walls of Old Englaad- Wag.. .
that after what bad happened lately in Europe the tiquated, and quite a farce. The whole of thel4ool6
assembling of these troops on .the frontier might be Lord's speech. he thought was a fallacy. Ithabildi
considered a 'measure of just and prudent precaution.' said by his Noble Friend, on the wnestien of the
&oar
The Noble Lord had argued on the difference of si- in Spain iu 1808, that it might be questionableestic4able bow

,c,,,,,,,,..,
tt: Writif,taarlm,
awisheanndh
4 that after , ifokt to the last unprtyipled
the :aspen- *aced qothing against the
d 'be, the arl, but the question was,
id put for- his conduct then, and his opir