Star.
London, England, 1805-06-01 00:00:00

I

Do you reeolle& any other inflame where intereft
bas not been paid ?--No.
For what reafon was the demand of intereft omitted?
—I can affign no fpecific reafon; it did not occur
to me to be neceffary.
What was the amount of money borrowed in the
year 1795 ? I cannot take upon myfclf to fay at this
moment, &c. &c.
Did you know that the 40,0001. fo advanced would
be drawn from the Bank ?—1 had no knowledge of
the particular mode by which that funs would be
furnifhed.
Did you believe it would come nut of the public
money advanced for Navy Services?—l did.
Ought not filch money, according to law, ..co re-
main in the Bank till affigned to, or drawn for'par-
ticular Navy Services ?—Yes, I conceive fn.
Were you at the time aware of fuch legal provi
lions ?—1 certainly mull have known the exittence of
the Attl, but its particular provifion was not at that
time under my contemplation, &c.
Have you any knowledge of a certain (urn of pub-
lic money, amounting to t0,00c.1. being in :he Lands
of Lord Melville in the beginning of the year 1736 ?
—No, I have not.
The further Examination of the Rig': Hen. tam
PITT, taken the Bth of May, t
Were any reprefentations at any time made to you
by any body, of the circumllance of money iffued to
the Bank for Navy Services, being drawn from thence,
and lodged in the hands of a private banker or bank.
ers ? I have a general recolleCtion, that Mr. Raikes,
one of the Bank Directors, and I believe either Go-
vernor or Deputy Governor at the time, took fume
mention to mention to me, that lie believed firms
were drawn from the Bank to a larger amount than
he fuppofcd to be neceffary, and carried to a private
banker's, but no memorandum or document of any
fart was given to me ; and at this ditlance of time, I
can only hate the fubilance of what palled very ge-
nerally, and cannot undertake.with any precilion to
itcolirtl the particulars.
Had you any communication witl4 the Treafurer
of the Navy in confequence of what Mr. Raikes had
told you ?—Yes, I had ; I took an early opportunity
of flaring to him the opinion which Mr. Raikes bad
exp•df:d to me.
What forth-r patted on the fubjell ?—I cannot
hate precifely the converfation that took place be-
tween us, hut I was led to fuppofe from what palled,
that the Treafurer of the Navy did not believe that
any larger fums were drawn from the Bank than filch
a, were neceffary for carrying on the detail of the
fervice in payments to individuals; but I beg to have
. it mai, r hood, that I cannot (late with any precifion
the terms which were ufel, I only hate the general
impreffion left upon my mind.
Was that general impreffion fuch as to lead you to
difbelieve the faa hated to you by Mr.Raikes, namely
that money aac drawn from the Bank under the au-
tho•it y rf the Treafurer of the Navy, and lodged at
a private Banker's i—lt did not lead me to dilbelieve
the fact, that money was drawn from the Bank, and
lodged at a pi ivate banker's ; but it led me to believe
that no other fums were drown but filch as were ne-
celTary fur carrying on the details of the tervice.
Were you aware that foci proceedings on the part
of the Treafurer of the Navy were it egular ?—I was
fo far fatisfied with the general (larement in given
me, that I made no further inquiry, and I did not
particularly advert to the provifions of the At of
Parliament ; and it did not occur to my mind, that
drawing filch fums of money as were neceffary for
carrying on the details of the fervice was an illegal
practice.
Did you take any Reps to verify the flatemAts
made to you, by calling for an examination of any
books, accounts or papers on the fubjeet ?—No, I did
pot. I beg leave to obferve, that I have already
(laced that I was fo far fatisfied with the general
flatement which I received in -converfation with the
Treafurer of the Navy, that I made no further inquiry.
Did you inform Mr. Raikes of the fatisfaedon you
bad obtained from your converfation with the Trea-
Curer of the Navy ?—I do not recolle& having after-
wards any converfationwith hfr. Raikes on the fubjeet.
Did you inform any other of the public fervants,
or any of the law officers of the Crown, of the com-
munication that had been made to you by Mr. Raikes?
—No, I did not ; no impreffion was left on my mind,
after the converfation with the Treafurer of the Navy,
to make me feel it =Call"' to take any Reps on the
fuhjett.
Although you did not know to what extent money
was fo drawn from the Bank by the Treafurer of
the Navy, and lodged at a private banker's, did you
know the praCtice was continued ?—I do not recolle&
knowing any thing afterwards on the fubjeCt ; but I
conceived, front the Treafirrer of the Navy's conver-
Cation, that the practice took place only as necclfary
for carrying on the fcrvices, aa I have already ex-
plained.
Did you invefligate inch neceffity ?—No, I did
not ; I relied on the given the by the Trea-
Curer of the Navy without further examination.—
&c. &c.
Did Lord Harrowby tell you that he new, or that
lie had reafon to fuppofe, that profit had been made
of public money, iffued for Naval Service ?—I do not
told me that he knew that it had, but he
.o fuppofe that it might have been.
toy heirs taken by you to afcertain the fa& ?
:re were not.
la known at the time that profits were de-
-1 the public money placed in the hands of
rakers, fhould you have deemed it irregu-
Regal, and confequently a praftice that
I mediately to have been flopped ?—I (hould
'lave deemed it a praekice that ought imme-
have been flopped, Ste. &c.
Examination of the Right Honourable 1111a1dAi
PM', taken the 17th of May, 18os.
ton any reafon to fuppofe that zo,oool. of
red for Naval Services, was applied to pur-
Naval, dining the laftTreafurerfhip of Lord
, bellies the fum of 40,0001. Rated to have
'anced to the hot•fe of Boyd and Berrfield, in
796 ?—I underhood from convcrfation with
v ilk, that to the bell of his recollation, that
the amount ; and on that ground I hated
to that effett in the Houfe of Commons.
Nu any information as to the purpofe to
:h money was applied ?—I have not.
to make an inquiry of Lord Melville on the
•I not. •
did the converfation take place?—Borne
tit: Tenth Report was publifhed, &c. &e.

The briber teatatesanon of nroNAs Rims, Th. tan
the Sib of May, 180 s.
It has been Rated to the Committee, that the nar-
rowing of the Bank difcounta had for one objed the
checking of fpeculations, fuppofed to be going on at
that time ; was that the fad ?---I do not recoiled any
fuch circumftance.

Was the general meafure taken with a view to the
houfe of Boyd in particular?-1 have been in the Bank
twenty-eight years, and I never knew it to aft on fuch
partial con(ideration.
Had you been aware that a certain fum of public
money, which by law ought to have remained in the
Bank till the time at which it might be wanted to be
applied to the (pedal fervice for which it had been
iffoed to the Bank, would be withdrawn for the put.
pole rf fupporting the bottle of Boyd, fhoold you have
thought it your duty, with a view to the interells of
the Corporation of which you then had, in conjunc•
tion with Mr. Giles, the principal management ,under
the difficulties of the Bank at that particular period,
to have remontirated with the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer on arch tranfaCtion, tc have made any repre-
fentat:ons to him or others on the fuhjea, or to have
taken any Reps to prevent it ?—I certainly knew no-
thing of any fuch circumtUnce ; if I had known it
on any fore foundation, and that any refponilbility
thereby devolved on the Bank, I certainly fhould
have thought it right to have expolitilated with the
Chancellor of the Exchequer upon it.

State why you would have expoßulated with him ?
Becanfe if I knew that monies which were appropri-
ated for public fervice were applied to the are of
private individual, I fhould have thought it requilite,
if it came to me officially, to have mentioned it to the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, &c. &c.
The further Examination
.ornamat FAr.
mien the lth o May, 1805.
Do you know if any fums of money paid from the
Exchequer into the Bank for Naval Services have
been drawn from the Bank, and placed in the hands
of private Bankers ?—From my own knowledge I
cannot fay I do know.
Has fach information been given you at any time i
Yes; I believe in the year t 797.
By whom ?—Mr. Giles, the then late Governor of
the Bank, told me that Mr. Dundas, then Treafuier
of the Navy, kept his cafb, which by Mt of Parlia-
ment he was direfted to keep at the Bank, at the pri-
vate banking.houfe of Mars. Coons and Company.
I was going that day to the Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer on bufinefs from the Bank, and I thought it
nffufficient confequence to mention the matter to him,
but I called in Mi. Newland, the Cafhier, and inked
him as to the circumllance, which he confirmed, and
added, that Navy Bills were now paid by drafts up
on Meffrs. Courts and Company, instead of upon the
bank, as they had formerly been : when I went up
to Mr. Pitt, after the immediate object of my bufinefs
from the Bank was over, I did in converfation men-
tion the circumflance to him:.

..... .......
Did anything further pars ?—Nothing particular ;
I think Mr. Pitt thanked me for my iuformatiou,
and made no further obfervation.

Did Mr. Gila tell you any tl ing of the extent of
thefe tranfaCtions, or when they commenced ?--Not
that I recolleCt.

Had you any other converfation with the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer than the one you have now
Elated ?—None that I recalled.

Upon a point of this nature, affc6ing the intereß
of the Bank as well as thole of" the public, did it not
occur to you to inquire whether any, or what peps
had been taken in confequence of your former fug.
geltion ?—I looked upon ir,that having made the mat•
ter known to the Chancellor of the Exebequer, it was
in the hands of the perfon moil c ,mpetent tofet any
thing right that might be wrong in the bufinefs; 1 do
not recolle4l I heard any thing more on the tubjth in
the courfe of my office, &c. &c.
Is it not ufual to caufe a minute to be taken of any
reprefentarion made by the Governor or Deputy Go.
vernor or the Bank, which they confider as official ?
—This communication was not confidered as official,
kc. dtc.

Again—
Can you mention in what terms you made the com-
munication to Mr. Pin ?—I told him that I had heard
at the Bank that morning, that the Treafurer of the
Navy now kept' his call at Me(frs. Coutts and Com-
pany's inilead of the Bank, where I underflood it
limpid he lodged by. Aa of Parliament ; and that I
had alfo heard that Navy Bills were now paid by
drafts upon Meffis. Coutts and Company, inflead of
drafts upon the Bank. •
Are you certain that thole are the terms in which
you made the communication ?—I am nor fore of the
terms, it was eight years ago ; but I am fure of the
purport.
• Had you any authority from the Bank to mention
the converfation alluded to, to the Chancellor of the
Exelequer ?—None, I did it with a view to the pub-
lic good. •
You mentioned it as an individual only ?—I cannot
fay quite as an individual; I was Governor of the
Bank at the time ; I learned it at the Bank, and oleo-
tioned it to Mr. Pitt, being Governor of the Bank ;
I thould 'not have knosin •it had I not been in 'that
fituation, nor had any apportunity of making the
communication.

' Did you mention the circnmilance to Mr. Pitt, as
Governor of the Bank ?—I had rib comMiffion from
the Bank to mention it to Mr. Pitt, but I did it in
converfation after the Wines was over.

By the sword harmers," do you mean fuch com-
munication to the Chancellor of the Exchequet4 Upon
the bufinefs of the Bank, which, as Goverrteteof the
Bask, you was authorized to make to him ?--I do,
&c. &c.

Aaain—
The further Examination of THOMAS RAMS, Eh. falai
the Bth of May, tBos.
When Mr. Giles informed you of the circumftance
of the Treafurer of the Navy keeping his &hi at a
private banker's, did he throw nut any hint that fuch
money was applied for the profit (f any perfon ? No.
Did any fuch idea fuggeft ittelf to you, o did you
at the time ever hear it, or know any thiag. of the
matter ?—I cant* fay but I had Come' fufincion of
it, but nob Ody ever told me, nor did ant thing of the
kind ever come to my knowledge.
Do )ou recoiled fisting any fulpicion of that fort
to Mr. Pitt, or throwing out any hint tending that
way ?—As I knew nothing of that kind. I had no
right to throw out fufpicions. • -•

When did you fird cntertoip loch fufpicinske
When Mr. Giles firlt mentioned, it to me.

The Eetam;nation of CIOROI BMICZ.fr. Eff....4a.lest •
loth of May, 1895.
Do you know of any inftance, between Auguft
1796 and January 1798, of any Vittualling Bill which
had been regularly accepted, and prefented for pay-
ment, not having been paid when fo prefented for
want of effeas ?—The cafe happened to me in an
initanee of my own.
State the cafe ?—lt was in a bill of mood. drawn
from Martinique by Mr. Detborough upon the Vic-
tualling Office, regularly accepted, and due the 18th
of February 1797, and paid without intere ft on the s a
of March, eleven days after it was due, &c.
The Eaataistatiox of GEORGIC SWAFIIILD, ?f7. tale. the
zotchat May, 1805.
What are you ? ier of the ViBualling in the
Navy Pay Office.
Do you know any thing of any bill accepted by
the Commiffioners of the Viltnalling Office, and pre-
fented for payment when dtie, not having been paid
at the office when Co prefented, between Anguft 1796,
and January 1798 I do not recolleB any fuch cir-
cumitance, if the bill was complete.
What is the meaning of the bill being complete ?
That the bill might be accepted by the Board, but
not afligned by them for want of money.
What is the meaning of not affigned for want of
money ?—The money not having been ailed from
the Exchequer to the Treafurer of the Navy for the
payment of it.
On what head of account at the Bank would the
affignment of a bill upon the Vittualling Office be
made?-.-On the head Vietualling.
Is that clafs or head of payment diltind from the
Bill and Payment Office ?—lt is Co dilline that I
have never any cant at the Bank but under that head
of Vidualling.
Did it frequently happen "that bills accepted were
not affigned for want of money have known many
inftances of it.

Has the Treafurer of the Navy any thing to do
with the making the alignment ?—No.
Does not the*Treafuter of the Navy order theiffue
of the money when the affignments are made?—
Whenever the Commiffioners of Viitualling affign
bilk for payment, they fend a lift of thofe bills by
way of advice, and that lift is generally fent to me,
on which I apply for money to pay it.
Is fuch lift fent previous to .he affigpment being
made ?—I cannot fay pofitively, but my inftrultions
are not to pay tato& bills without firft having die
lift, &c. acc.

The Appendix contains the Bond of Releafe, exe-
cuted in February, 1803, between Lord Melville and
Mr. Trotter.
'The following claufe refpeaing the debudion of
vouchers, is confidered unufual :
Whereas for feveral years pall there have been fun-
, dry accounts. reckonings, and money tranfatlions de-
pending between us, the account of which have late-
ly bcen examined, adjulleci, and agreed upon be-
tween us, and upon fuck examination, fettlement,
and adjullment, there remained a balance due from
the faid Alexander Tiotter 'to the aforefaicl Lord
Vircount Melville, of one theufand 'five hundred,
and eighty pounds, eleven (billings, and one penny,
Rerling money, with which final examination, ilate-
ment, and adjuflment both parties declaie them-
felves perfectly fatisfiecl, and do hereby approve and
ratify the fame. And they have either mutually *-
livered up to each othe'r, or iefolved and agreed mu-1
tually to cancel and deftroy all the vouchers or other
memorandums and writings.'that at any time here-
tofore may have exifted, paffed, or been interchanged
between them relative to the Paid accounts, anti ;he
different items and articles of which the raid accounts
are compofed or confift ; and they have further re-
folved and agreed, mutually to releafe and 4ifcharge
each other up to the day of the date of thefePsefeuta,
for now and ever : Therefore, &c. &c. &c.

think he tr
appeared
tc
—l4^ ; the
i Had you
rived horn
private Bar
lar I:nd ill
•
opght imm
.ertainlyh•
diatrly to h
he furllgr
Have yo
money iffor
pc,fes not N
Melville, b
been advan
the year 17
Lord Mc Iv
Was nearly
my belief t
Have yc
which fuch
Did you
fubjeS ?-1
When c
time after