Star.
London, England, 1802-02-09 00:00:00

HOUSE Of COMMONS.

A Meffenger from the Bank brought. up an Account of the
amount of the Sinking Fund expended by the Commiffioners for
Liquidating the National Drbt.--Ordered to lie on the Table.
Ordered that the SPEAK eR fhould ilTue his Writ for the Bo-
rough of Jedhult, in room of Rob r BAIRD, Efq. who bad
accepted the Ghtiteru Hundreds
The Shoreditch Paving, &c. Bill was read a fecond time, and
ordered tribe committed to a private Committee. - .

Mr. Jenyt.t prefented a Pcatition from the Debtors confined
in the King's Bench Prifon, praying relief; alfo a Petition of a
Ilinibr nature from the Debtors in the County Gaol of Cardi-
gan. Thd: Petitions were ordered to lie on the Tsbie.

and
A vote of t t 4,cscl. to defray the envied of embodying the
Militia, f om the 3d of Auguit, 1804 up to the of De.
ember, in the fame year.
The Refolutions being read a firft time;
The-Cnaioceet.oa of the EXCHEWER moved
that they be read a feccnd time.
Mr. Mama (of Tewkcfbury) Paid, lie under-
flood, with regret, that the obfervations which he
had felt it his duty to make on a former evening,
when the fubjed of the Report juft prefented was
before the Committee, had incurred the difplea-
fure of the Right Hon. Gentleman who prefided
on the Treafury Bench, and of other perfons who
acted with him. He could airure the Houfe it was
with the utmoft reluctance he ever delivered a fen-
timent, however ftrongly urged by the neceffity
of the occafion, that might give offence to any
party or to any individnal; but he would be more
particularly unwilling to offend the Right Hon.
Gentleman over againft him ' • for he never could
forget the dignity, grace, and rectitude with which
he had concluded' himfelf in the Chair of that
Houfe ; with the recolle.lion of which he was fo
ftrongly impreffed, that he could not help Paying,
without meaning any difrefpea to the prefent
worthy Speaker, that he was forty the Right Hon.
Gentleman had ever quitted that fituation, to rick
his character by the expofure of Each a Paper as that
in which the Expenditure of the z,ecio,ociel. grant-
ed for the Extraordinarics of the Army was ac-
counted for—a Paper which he wiflied to be read
in every Market-place in the country; and he was
confident, from the clumfy manner in which it
was drawn up, and the extravagant items it con-
tained, it would excite universal laughter and in-
dignation—it would ferve to damp the difpofition
to war, which had unhappily of late been too pre-
valent, and which encouraged the late Minifter
to plunge the country into lioftilities without ne-
ceility or juflice, and to fquander the public money
among the petty butchering Powers of. Germany,
who hired out their men to he fhot at for fo much
a day, as if we had not a Nav y amply fufficient to
I defend us against any enemy, without reforting to
fu:h alliances. He profeffed himfelf unwilling to
embarrafs his Majefty's Miniflers, but he thought
it neceffary to fay thus much upon this ftrange
I paper, having obferved that Gentlemen who had
diftinguifhed themfelves by their forwardnefs dur-
ing the late Adminiftration, to fcrutinize every
item of the public expenditure, fat filent upon et
former evening, and teemed cilipoied to abandon
that pradice) and to give to the prefent Minifter
a kind of negative fupport. He too was inclined
to fupport the Right Hon. Gentleman, becaufe in
general, as yet, he thought him deferving of it ;
by: he would not pledge himfelf to give to any
Minifter that kind of fyfteniatic unqualified fup-
port which fhould preclude him from exercising
his own judgment upon all occafions. He declared
that he fpoke from the faireft confideration of the
fubjed, and fhould on all occaflons cane forward
when the public intereft demanded it, to deliver
his opinions, whatever degree of ridicule or re-
proach he might incur from any perfon—" for,"
laid he, " I am armed fo ftrong in honefty, that
fuch cen==tres will pafs by me like the idle wind,
which 1 regard not."
The CHANCELLOR of the Excaeopca expreffed
his furprile that the Finn. Gentleman Arnold fup-
pole that he could feel offended at the attempt of
any Member of Parliament to examine the Public
Accounts, or that he could attribute to fuch Mem-
ber any difpofition to offer him a perfonal offence
—on the contrary he courted that ferutiny, and
had no fear of the refult ; but he confeffed, from
a confideration of the Hon. Gentleman's known
candour, and from a recolledion of the civiiity he
had uniformly experienced from him, he felt hurt
when the Hon. Gentleman charged his Majefly's
Minifters with grofs and feandalous expenditure
of the public money, a charge certainly rather too
arcin, particularly when it was recollected that
the lion. Gent:eman advanced it upon the affer-
Lion of the Hon. Gentleman on the floor, without
waiting for his (Mr. Addington's) explanation,
which he on the former evening picifeill:d himfelf
ready to give, even upon thole parts of the Ac-
counts which were not then before the Committee;
and in fad it appeared, that the whole of the com-
ments of the Hon. Gentleman on the expenditui
of the eeeco,oool. were not properly relevant to
the Refolution which was referred to the confide-
' ration of the Committee, and which regarded
merely the excels of the army extraordinaries for
18ot, remaining to be provided for; bey3nd that
the remarks of the Hon. Gentleman fliould not,
in hid order, have gone ; but yet the Hon.Gen-
tlernan was liftened to with attention by the Com-
mittee, and it was highly proper to grant that in.
dulgence to any Member in the ex.:real: of the
molt facred duty of a Britifh Commoner—the exa-
mination of the public accounts. He thought,
however, the Hon. Gentleman who fpcke malt
ought to have befitated, to give the weight if his
fandion to the obfervations of the Hon. Gentle.
man on the floor, until he fhould have heard Heine
reply from thofe who are concernel in the diitrt-
bution of the public money. Had the Hon. G::n-
wt I et:
ladn h
.evt t
ve beede,n heve
rhya
it
.41
tnisoctdaoonl by t
tot hhai
tin
;t hi
te
ucoe reply
have been more becoming the acculltuned libera-
lity of the Hon. Gentleman to to have aged. Ilis
not having, done fo was the ground of his (Mr,,
Atielingten s) regret,becaufe he conceived his MP

• - -
fares rather too premature. The Hon. Gentle
man expreffed a with that the account alluded to
(liquid be read in every marketplace in the min-
try; he atTured him that filch was his with
confident that it would meet the public approba•
lion. It muff be manill9, that the excels, which
upon this occalion the Houfe was called upon to
provide for, arofc from the extraordinary expellee
of the Army and Navy on the expedition to
Egypt, The navy debt contraOed within the lall
year, in confequence of that expedition, exceeded
that of the year am by the fum of 367,0001. ;
only for that expedition be was decidedly of opi-
nion it would have been left. When in June laa
he applied for the vote of credit for 2,000,c001. he
was not aware that it would be now neceffary to
apply to Parliament for a further fum to defray
the expenses of the laa year. He Rated confident-
-Iy, and without flizme, that he was not aware of
it—for it was then the opinion of the molt expe-
Tiowt.: military men, that the Egyptian expedition
would not Lift fa long. Another part of the ex-
traordinary expence of laft year was incurred by
the preparations for internal defence, which Go-
vernment thought' it neceffary to make in conic-
quence of the equipments .on the coal of France,
apparently menacing this country; menaces which
fome people regarded too highly, and others too
lowly—again( which, however, it was the duty of
Government to guard. This, with the butinefs of
Egypt, formed three-fourths of the extraordinary
expellees of the left year, and it mutt be in the
coaderation of the Houfe, that a great part of
the navy cebt was occafioned by the enhanced
price of all articles for vianalling, which, under
the management of thofe elevated- charaaers who
bad the direaion of his Majefty's Navy, were,
doubtlets, obtained on terms as advantageous as
the Rate of the times would admit. He begged
Gentlemen to point out the particular items of the
account to which they objc6ed, and rot ad ranee
general charges which could not fo well be refuted.
einrited the Hon. Gentlemen on the cppolite
fide to Rate their objeitions fully. He called upon
them to invelligate the accounts thoroughly, and
%rinsed them to fatisfy themfelves upon every item,
adding,that he would be happy to give them every
explanation in his power.
Mr. Morrie and the CNAIICELLOR of the Ex-
cwegpxa feverally explained.
Mr. Ts BIM IT laid, be (hould be forry to trouble
the Haute with many obfervations, but the Hon.
Gentliman (Mr. Martin) mull forgive him if he
could not give way to thofe jealouties of his Ma-
lefty's Minillers, which tome Gentlemen teemed
inclined to entertain, whilft he taw no eau& for any
filch jealotify. He was fure his Hon. Friend would
not fay, that mere fufpicion was to authorize an
Hon. Gentleman to rejea, without a dole and
fedulous examination, accounts, that were brought
before Parliament. Befides, in the account before
the Houfe, was included money which was to be
confidered as impreffed for certain Cervices, and of
which an account was am to be given. With re-
fpea to the army extraordinaries, the Hottfe now
flood in a different fituation to what it formerly
did :—formerly the army extraordinaries were not
known until the amount of the adual expence in-
curred was brought before Parliament ; now it
Is as known that they. wfatll.4 be army extraordi-
naries, and they were provided for accordingly.
The late Chancellor of the Exchequer bad altered
the mode formerly adopted by bringing down an
climate at the commencement of the Seffion, of
the army extraordinaries for the enfuing year, of
the diftribution of which fum an account was af-
terwards laid before Parliament. He knew of no
method of dircuffing the army extraordinaries un-
til they were brought before Parliament. He
should be extremely lorry, however, that it (hould
be thought that he was fatisfied with the accounts
upon the Table ; he expreffed himfelf, on the con-
trary, diffatisfied with them ' • and that it was the
duty of the Members of that Houfe to watch over
the expenditure of the public money, with the molt
extreme care and attention, there could. be no
doubt. There was one article in the account,
which ht could not pals by without animadverfion,
this was with refpea to coals going. to Gibraltar;
it appeared that the demurrage upon this article
amounted to 61. per chaldron, a charge fo enor-
mous, as to require a ftria inveltigation. He
thought that a wage of the public money evidently
appeared in thefe accounts, and that the finances
of the country were not mauaged in that cecono-
mica) manner as a man wi—rld manage Lis own
private concerns. Having laid thus much of the
accounts, he would fay, that he believed that many
of the fairs contained in them, belonged to the
late Adminifiration, and were now brought for-
ward for the fill time. He was lorry not to fee
the late Chancellor of the Exchequer in his place.
The Eftimates of the army extraordinaries brought
forward by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer,
were generally found remarkably accurate, the
aflual amount of the expenditure feldom exceeding
the ellimate by more than a or 30001. It now
became a quettion whether he did not keep back
fums, which if brotight forward as they ought to
have been, would have confiderably exceeded in
the amouti!, the climates he formed ? for it-now
appearedSwhen we had arrived at a happy period
of Peace, and the accounts were in confequence
wound up, that the prefent Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer was fiddled with the odium of bringing
forward accounts for not half the fums contained
in which he was refpotifible. Why did not the
late Chancellor of the Exchequer comedown and
(late that thofe fums contained in the Accounts
winch were paid for Cervices during his Admini-
tiration were his, and take the refponfibility of
them upon himfelf ? He wanted dates to the Ac-
counts, that he might diftinguith between the ex-
Fences incurred by the late and prefent Adminiftra-
lion. He wanted to know when the different Bills
had been drawn, which it appeared had been paid
by the Treafury. There were feveral items rela-
tive to fuhfidies ; why were not thefe brought for-
ward by the late Chancellor of the Exchequer ?
This deferved the attention of the Houk. it ap-
peared now that mcl enormous fums had been
kept back by the late Adminiftration, and had been
fuffcred to prefs upon, and burden the finances of
this country until a new Adminiaration were COM.

illell --.•.-

I I.

pelleol to bring them forward. It was foram fly
the cliflom to vote the Army Extraordinaries after
an examination of the different articles, but lately
a pradice had arifen, to which he objedled, of
!dinging forward lumping fum;, inflead of indi
vidual articles. It was true the :wicks were
previoufly examined by the Commit!loners of Ac
counts, but he did not like th-t the power of
Parliament fhould be given up to Commiflioners
of Accounts; it was the duty of the Members of
that Houfe to invefligate for themfelves, and
ground their vote upon that invelligation. If Gen-
tlemen would now inveftigate a little, they would
find that a rum of 25,000,0001. muff now be
brought forward, of the expenditure of which no
account whatever had been given by the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer. He thought that a corn-
miffion ought to be appointed to invelligate the
expenditure of that (um, when perhaps firange
things would come out. All he could do at pre-
fent was, to exprefs a with for farther information
relative to ;he Army Extraordinaries ; he knew
this was not the day on which he could difcufs
them. He did not know whether any Gentleman
would be induced to move for fuch a commiflion,
but an alarming expenditure had been going on,
which bad not been communicated to Parliament,
and he was anxious to have the accounts of the
late Adminifiration thorouhly inveftigated.—
He alTured the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Martin)
that he knew nothing of negative fupport ; he
fupported the Right Hon. Gentleman (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) becaufe he was con-
vince.: that Right Hon. Gentleman was treonomi-
cal in the expenditure of the public money; be-
yond that his fupport could not be alked by that
Right Hon. Gentleman. He fhould continue to
fupport his Majefty's Minifters until he faw a ftsffi-
cient realm% to alter his opinion.
Mr. S mut requelled the indulgence of the
Houfe for a few moments, while he endeavoured
to explain fuch points as had been more particu-
larly infifted upon, and to remove the principal
objeftions which had been (farted. He began by
vindicating the new mode of voting the army ex-
traordinartes; which his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Pitt) had introduced from the fulleß convidtion of
its expediency and neceffity. In (peaking of the
prefent accounts, he wifhed to Rate to the Houfe,
that every means had been ufed to make them as
clear, as perfea, and as fatisfaaory as the nature
of the materials from which they were formed
would permit. The examination which every ac-
count underwent previous to its being paid, was,
probably, not unknown to the Houfe.. Sometimes
they were fubjefted to the infpeition of the Comp-
trollers of Accounts, fometimes to the review of
the Secretary At War, and at other times to the
examination of the Treafury. They were again
fcrupulonfly and rigidly confidered at the Pay-
matter's Office ; and when all thefe circumflances
were confidered, he hoped the Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Tierney) would hate the candour to allow,
that every exertion was made to prevent undue
charges on the public. Before the payment could
be illued, even after all this previous examination,
it was requefted that the demand should be figned
by his Majelly's fign manual, and counterfigned
by the Treafury. The Hon. Gentleman was,
therefore, too general in the cenfure he had palled
on the mode of diftributing the public money, and
to fubtlantiate his affertions be bad only produced
one intlance. This intlance refpeaed a quantity
of coals lent from this country to Gibraltar, and
though he would not take upon him to deny that
the fum was large, he mull think it too much for
any Gentleman, ignorant as he muff be of the cir-
cumftances of the cafe, to pronounie decidedly
that it was exceffive. • He had no doubt whatever
that this demand experienced the ufual checks,
and that fufficient evidence was produced of the
encreafed charge being unavoidable before its fair-
nefs was allowed. There was no other point to
which it was neceffary to refer, no other being
mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman ; but the Hon.
Member bad complained of want of dates in the
accounts. It was to be obferved in general, that
as the time of making up the accounts was from
the 24th of December in the one year to the fame
time in that which followed, this might be inferred
to be the period within which the money was dif-
' burred. But it was farther to be noticed, that the
day of payment by warrant was in all cafes dated
in the accounts laid before the Houfe. The fame
arrangement could not indeed be obferved with
regard to the bills drawn by the foreign agents of
Government. The addition of the dates in thefe
cafes would only ferve to (well the account, and
to render it more unintelligible. At the fame
time, when he entered into this explanation' he
wilhed to be underftood clearly by the Houfe, that
by not giving the dates there was not the ffighteft
with implied of concealing this information from
'the Houfe or the public. With the Treafury be
was confident no fuch with exiled, and he was
not kits fore that a with of this fort was what the
Paymader-General never for a moment indulged.
The Hon. Gentleman, however, had fuppofed
that the late Chancellor of the Exchequer kept
back accounts for the purpofe of throwing odium
on his fucceffor. To this he bad only to fay that
he was confident no fuch motive ever operated on
the mind of his Right Hon. Friend. To his
knowledge every account was fairly Rated, as loon
as it was fully examined, and an opinion formed
of the jutlice and fairnefs of the demand. From
the date of the warrant it became legally due, and
might be put into a train of payment. He was
ready to admit, indeed, that at the end of the
year iBOO many demands might be outftanding.
There, however, he would contend, were then un-
der confideration, and in all probability contained
many particulars which, after a careful infpeaion,
were difallowed. In illuttration of this idea, the
Right lion. Gentleman mentioned the cafes of
the demands of the Landgi'ave of Heffe Caflel and
the King of Sardinia, which he fucceffively de-
fcribed and explained. Both of thefe claims had
been, in the &ft inilance, difputed, but both had
afterwards been admitted, and both had been after-
wards regularly liquidated. He would Rate, there-
fore, once for all, that there was not the flighteft
foundation for the idea which the Hon. Mernher
had fog/riled. The Right Hon. Gentleman, after

making Anne remarks in rapport of the new mode
of voting the Army Extraordinaries, and repro-
bating the unfair manner in which objeCtions had
been urged, concluded by offering any further ex•
planation, if what be had now laid was not confi-
dered fatisfadory.
Mr. Tt ERN Ev explained. He faid his reafon for
within g for dates was to know when the Treafury
had advice of the Bills.

Mr. STEELE obferved, that the Hon. Gentleman
had charged his Right Hon. Friend (the late
Chancellor of the Exchequer) with deliberately
keeping back what his fuccell'or brought forward,
and that he had thrown the expcnces of a former
year into a fucceeding one. on purl:oak to deceive
Parliament ; he defied the Hon. Gentleman to
produce any one inftance of a charge having been
kept back that could or ought to have been
brought forward.
The CHANCELLOR OF THE EXCHEQ3JER remark-
ed. that a variety of circumstances might have
concurred in rendering the charge for freight and
demurrage not an unreafonable one. It was ne-
ceffary for the Houfe to confider that the account
prefented,was a winding-up account, and was in-
tended to include every branch of expenditure
ranging under Army Extraordinaries, as far as
they could be made out.

Mr. NICHOLL faid there was no Member in the
Houle of whole efteem he was more folicitous than
the Hon. Gentleman whole obfervations had pro-
duced the debate. He never differed from him
without diftruffing himfelf, but he Rill approved
of his own condat in not having condemned the
prefent Chancellor of the Exchequer. That Mi.
nifter was not refponfible for the impropriety of
entering upon the Egyptian expedition, or for
the various expences produced by, tbe late war.
He thought Government aged perfedly right
in paying all the bills drawn by its Agents—a
contrary pradlice might be attended with infinite
mifchief. As the Minifter had neither planned
the expedition to Egypt, :or fubfidized the Powers
of the Continent, he law no one point on which it
was his duty to blame him—if the public money
had been profufely expended, let thofe who had
laviflied it refund—if it had been necelTarily ex-
pended, it would be a leffon to warn us againft
entering upon fuch expenfive expeditions. He
had no doubt if the whole expence of the expe-
dition to Egypt could be eftimated, it would con-
vince every one that it would have been better if
that country had remained fubjefl to the power of
France. He did not with to cenfure the late Mi-
nifters, who were not prefent. The prdper feafon
for enquiring into their conduft would arrive, and
if they were found to deferve blame he thonld be
as ready as ever to condemn them. He confidered
them Rill accountable for having prevented the
evacuation of Egypt by the French army, and for
the anfwer they advifed his Majefty to give to the
overtures of Bonaparte. With regard to the
prefent Minifter, he looked upon him as the Mi-
niker of a pacific fyftem, and he had oblerved no
one meafure of his that deferved reprehenfion.—
When he ceafecl to be the Minifter of a pacific
fyftem, he would come forward and attack him
with the fame feverity with which he had attacked
his predeceffor. This country could only be faved
by perfevering in a pacific fyilem, and while he
found a Minilter making peace his principal ob-
jett, he would overlook thofe venial errors which
might be found in his Adminiftration—while he
exhibited thofe virtues which prompted him to de-
fire peace, his defeas would teem diminifhed—

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