Star.
London, England, 1831-02-23 00:00:00

been by the member for Newark (Mr. Sadler). It was not an universal I
measure ; it was an 'fun to effect a transition from a bad to a good
administration of the poor laws.
Sir E. SUDDEN said, he had by no means opposed the opinion, that
it would be advisable to afford facilities to emigration; but he thought
this bill was giving a premium on emigration, and, in that sense, was
torell it. He thought it would lead to a charge on every freeholder,
*Pete the farmer should find that he had rather a troublesome holding.
a hey mast either have a 4eneral measure, relieving all parties—or •
partial measure to aid particular places, to afford facilities foe emigra-
tion, bat not to advance any thing by way of premium. As to the pro.
vhiam that by accepting the emigration, the right of further parochial
relief should be cut off—it was a mere declaration on paper, a fallacy.
He viewed the arguments of return of the money—and that this plan
would lead to a better administration of the poor laws, also as fallacies
and delusions. Friendly as he was to emigration, he could not approve
of the plan now proposed for promoting it.
Mr. BENET dented that there was any superabundance of labour ; if
there were more capital embarked in agriculture, it would not be found
that there were too many labourers. If numbers were induced to emi-
grate, their place would soon be supplied, then there would be the ad.
vantage resulting to parishes for the money expended ? Measures of
rmentiment had been proposed, such as a general Enclosure Act, &c.
but he thought the most beneficial measure would be a commutation of
tithes. The tithes equalled one•fourth of the charges of the land, and
if the commutation were effected it would so relieve the land that capital
would flow to its cultivation and give full occupation to the labourers.
He had no objection to emigration, but it must however, be quite free;
however he was persuaded that, until there was a commutation of tithes
and a taking off of such taxes as impeded industry and burdened the
land, the labourers would have no efficient relief. Taxation must be
removed flom industry and the cultivation of the land ; and if it were
wanted, let it be imposed on property.
Mr. W. WHITAIORE said that the provision which limited the
power of raising money to ten years removed objections to the measure
that he should otherwise have to it—it would prevent too serious bur-
dens being fixed on parishes. As to the detail of the measure, they
were remediable in the committee ; and he saw no chance of remedying
the defects of the poor laws until some removal of the surplus labour-
ers should have taken place.
Mr. HUNT said he had particularly attended to Lie Member for
Wiltshire ( Mr. Benet) because he knew that hon. Member to be a
practical man. He agreed with him that there was no redundancy of
labourers ; if capital were applied to agriculture more freely, so that
. there could be more adequate remuneration, it would soon be manifest
that there was no redundancy of labourers. He had told the hon.
Member fifteen years ago, he was glad to hear him repeat the send-
'rents now, let there be reduction of the taxes on land and a commutation
of tithes,that there might be remunerating prices, there would be no cause
to complain about the number of paupers. But he was afraid the hon.
member:was too late in requiring commutation of tithes ; he thought
nothing would now do but the abolition of tithes. As to the home co-
lonization of Hounslow and Dartmoor, they might as well colonise the
top of St. Paul's. He was not such a Goth or Vandal uto approve of
the destruction of machinery ; but be knew of instances where the ma-
chinery did not exist, that the farmers could not get hands enough to
enable them to take their corn to market. So that even now there were
places where there was not a redundancy of labourers. As to the scheme
of mortgaging the poor rates,he never heard of any thing so preposterous.
Mortgage the poor rates for ten years ! Did hon. members know that
hardly any could be collected in many places, and that in others they were
not worth 3 years' purchase. With respect to the state of the labourers,
they had no occasion to hear of their condition in the southern pro.
vinces. In Shoreditch, Birmingharn,:and other places. labourers were
used as beasts of burthen, wheeling barrow loads for miles for the most
trifling remuneration. In Essex, one of its Members had just told
hint that not half its lands were cultivated ; and what was the reason of
that, but the want of remunerating prices ? If they were to mortgage
the rates, the result must eventually fall on the landlords. He was,
however, glad to perceive one change in that House. The people wen
no longer spoken of as a low degraded crew," as the" swinish multi.
titude ;^ but still they were not disposed to attend to the people's peti.
tions.—(Cries of oh ! oh l) He admitted that there was no time to
attend to them, there were more to present than could be presented.
He had attended for the last six weeks to present petitions, and had not
yet had the opportunity. But he would repeat they did not listen to
them when they were presented. He believed that most of the Mem-
bers were wholly ignorant of the real state of the country, or they would
never use the language and arguments that they did, or propose such
measures as were named in that House. He was quite sure that every
scheme of this kind would ultimately fail.
Mr. BROWNLOW supported the motion. He trusted that the
house would not forget the very afflicting and painful statements made
by the member for Mayo (Mr. D. Browne) of the starving condition of
thousands in Ireland. He, therefore, was surprised that there should
be any opposition to such a measure as this. It was calculated to afford
a good deal of that relief which was so much wanted. Though the
member for Preston opposed the motion, he could not but think that
there would be labourers enough, if the measure were carried into effect,
to cultivate the land, however much it might be relieved.
Mr. BRISCOE could not be heard for some time, and he at last
said, " those who have coughs ought to stay away." He afterwards
observed, that in spite of the rudeness and coughing, he wished to
observe, that employment for the superabundant population ought to be
obtained ; if it could not be obtained, then there ought to be a judicious
plan of emigration (much coughing). He said it would save the time
of the house to extend a patient and respectful hearing to him, for no
consideration should induce him to sit down. (Much laughter, confu-
sion, coughing, and calls of " Question.") He concluded with ex-
pressing his approbation of the measure.
Lord HOW ICK having replied briefly,
The motion was agreed to, and leave given to bring in the bill.
TITHE ON POTATOES IN IRELAND.

Mr. RUTHVEN moved for leave to bring In • bill to exempt the
occupiers of land in Ireland, not exceeding two acres, from the payment
of tithes on potatoes.
Mr. STANLEY opposed the motion. The tithes proposed to be
taken away were, by law, the right of the Clergy of the Church of
Ireland. He was anxious to see a tithe composition carried into
effect ; but this measure took away the tithe without any compensa-
tion ; besides which, it was contrary to t►e policy en which the Legis-
lature bad for some time acted, which was to discourage small hold-
ings. (Hear, from Mr. O'Connell). He undentood that cheer—he
would not argue the goodness of the policy, but it was certainly the
object of the Legislature to discourage small holdings, and that, be
thought, was a good argument against the measure.
31r. O'CONNELL said, he felt no great interest in the question, as
he thought it would not afford the relief expected by the hon. mover'.
He was sorry, however, to hear the manner in which it was op-
posed, as it was calculated to excite desperation in Ireland, by the offi-
cial praises of that system of expelling the peasant from the land, which
was acted on in that country. The 24:h out of every 25th part of the
tithes of Ireland was paid by Catholics and Protestant Dissenters. This
was an oppressive state of things that could not continue. (Hear.)
Mr. HUNT said, all over the West of England tithe was exacted
from the poor cottager for his potatoes. He thought it a great oppres-
sion in both countries.

11r. GOULBURN opposed the motion. Of all the acts of his pub.
lie life, none gave him more satisfaction than the tithe composition Act.
Mr. RUTH VEN said, as the house did not appear to support the
motion, be would, with their leave, withdraw it.
O'GORMAN MAHON said he could not consent to the withdrawal
of the motion. It was calculated to benefit the poor of Ireland, and he
wished to let the people of Ireland see how many Members of that
House were willing to support such a proposition. He could not look
upon the present possessors of Church property in Ireland as having
any claim to the whole of the property they possessed. The Church
property was given by the State, in former times, for the support of
the poor, the erection and maintenance of churches, and the support of
the clergy. The present clergy had usurped the whole, and to devote a
portion of it to the poor was only to rescue it from the robbers who had
seized it. He would insist on dividing the House.
Aye for the motion
Noes

Majority against it 132
Mr. SUGDEN moved for leave to bring in a bill to extend the sta.
tute of mortniain to Ireland. At present every man in England may
give his estate to charitable uses, provided he did it one year betore
his death; his object was to extend that law to Ireland, to prevent any
dkposition of land to charitable purposes by death-bed dispositions.
11Ir. NORTH opposed the motion, and thought it would be an ad.
vantage to Ireland to have more of the land left to charitable purposes.
.Mr. O'CONNELL said, he should oppose the bill in every stage,
and was rather sure: iced that the learned gent. could not confine himself
to the improvement of the law of England instead of making a crusade
against charity in Ireland.
Lord ALTHORP said, he felt great regret and reluctance in op.
posing the hon. and learned gentleman's motion, but certainly he had
not shown any cause for bringing in the bill to make an alteration in
the existing law, and he hoped the hon. and learned gentleman would
withdraw his motion.
Sir CHARLES WETHERELL thought there was no case made
out for the change in the law of Ireland, which, as it stood at present,
was not complained of.
The gallery was cleared for a division, bat none took place, Mr.
Sugden having withdrawn his motion.
Mr. GUEST moved for a return of all persons holding offices, for
which no services were performed, and the emoluments of such offices,
and how long enjoyed by the present holders.
hlr. S. RICE said it was impossible to comply with the motion in
its present form ; if it were put in a practicable form it would not be
uPtird ALTHORP said, the only possible objection to the motion
was, that it was impossible to comply with it. If the hon. gentleman
would withdraw it, and put it in another form which would make corn.
plianthpossible, it would not be opposed.
Mr. GUEST withdrew his motion.
Sir A. GRANT brought up the Report of the Commltee of Supply.
The resolutions on the Army Estimates were agreed to.
The House adjourned at Two o'aoek.