Star.
London, England, 1825-03-04 00:00:00

. -

from a Noble • Lord - (Holland) relative to his (Lord
'LiverpOol) not having taken the iflostlttanty line of,
It
ar_gument, anduot having name die Catholic Aisocia-
AI in theßill. Now be Iliou it paiticularly kruriii
.that 'he" shbuld fir upiin'tha ri. poise,t, whit'he g.,,tfra
"tvs+peOrdistinctly. stata in It paik bf his speesfillial.
iter Sill', had the Cattrall'ikocraitton pthrctpilly In
view': If the House was called upon to legislate upon
the Catholic Association,. they were also legislating
against the Orange and all other Associations at the
same time. Now this took away completely the alleged
partiality pf the measure. It was that extended view
which he took of the question, not one merely applied
to the Catholic Association. He did not, however,
mean to deny that the Association was the prominent
object in view. Now there were two points in which
this question might be viewed. It might be looked at
as a measure to prevent the evasion of the Convention
Act ; this was the view the preamble of the Bill took
of the subject. They might also look upon it on its
own merits. The first view would not be conclusive,
because he was ready to admit that W the Catholic
Association is not guilty, there would not be any occa.
sion to extend the Convention Act ; but he thought that
the argument of his Learned Friend on the Woolsack
was conclusive. The same principle was to be applied
to one Association as well as to the other. He
was one of those who thought that, in such a situation
and in such a country, if looke4 to in all its parts
with regard to its tranquillity, it "arils not consistent
with the spirit of the British Constitution. No man
was more ready than he was to admit the right
of the subject to assemble and petition, or to take any
steps which might be necessary to carry those measures
into effect. It was among the most sacred rights of
the people of the empire. He was prepared to deny
that any assembly had not only the right to petition,
but to hold permanent sittings, and to take into its
consideration every case that came before it which un-
dertook to superintend justice, whether justly or not he
would not say : but- be that as it might, any controul
over the administration of justice, he must say, was
inconsistent with the principles of any nation. It was
impossible to look without suspicion at the circum-
stances under which the Association had been estab-
lished. The people of Ireland might be offended with
the refusal of the remainder of the .privileges which
they claimed as British subjects. They might come
and Main their cow int, but could anybody that

. explain ,plait__. __ ___,_ Any_
knows what has been done, think they ought In the
course of the last few years more has been done fpr the
good, peace, prosperity; and happiness of Ireland, than
had been done for centuries before. The whole of the
.tevenuidepaitment had been reforMed; the taxes bad
been reduced ; England had taken upon herself the
debt of Ireland ; and she was, he would.venture to say,
taxed than any country in Europe. In addition, to
'ill this, the administration of justice has been corrected,,
the Magistracy had been checked by'ae establishment
of.'Petty Sesscous—these' were the benefits bestowed by
England. Their.Lordol.ips would, however, see, that
in the midst of all this prosperity..avowed and ad
-
;Dim! by all parties, ..this Association
iassuMed a cha,.
miter much iniportint and itupdong`thin it would
have held in time of distress., It has. evaded the Con-
vention Act, and the evils of delegation exist without
there, perhaps, being real representation. He would
not trespass much longer on their time, for. he- did not
intend to enter into a discussion of the particular facts
alleged agaiOst the-Aisociatioti.. TheAmts,rat .whihe
Would not was, .that be believed the:Assoirairon. to be
constituted in,the same manner in which ethers,. under
similar circumstances, would be. His objection 'was,
that it could not exist with Out the evil the Conven-
tion. Act intended to put down—(Hear ~,hear, heir);
Intemperance- of language. isrul,,naturally, to.`'be er-
pected at these meetings. He would not .dwell'.upan
the proceedings of the .Aasociation, nor the resolutions
which had been passed-there, which Could,not possibly
have had any other effect than to • aggravate the evils
of the country. It might be thought by the'Catholici
to be the best mode, of enforcing their claims; and if
they liMited themselieiliS that alone, it would` * IlitiC;
but it did net so limititself, it had other objects be-
sides that questiOn. He had heard, that it was swit that
one of the forth*: of that Aisidciatimitlid had a com-
muniaritida aide to hiiii by a certain pei:sdiesiitid was
not named, thit if the
e, Ai .rptild be sans
with the cession of, the, CathOlts Claims, it should be
granted them. Thii peratift vial insVlered that that
Would not satisfy them ; Itt that the- Haase might pert.
ceive, that even if the Initiate of Catholic Emancipa-
tiop were carried. the Association you'd stilkbave some
other .object in ,view. He would' defy any /sTolsietoid
to say that such an Association ever. existed Wore; if
thetiookedA.it inviert point
sof slew. Hiwouldtm*
come. to', an4bei
,iiispdrtant Opt, the contiiblitiOit
called: .ilii...gOilAri 4iits6lq. Riot: .s6* this Wes a
term of their own. He thought that the terns " teat,"
-itself ithplied oblitation ; which df itself -did away
with
,thi. 414 df if folontart COntribiftitiii . They idea
Of its Whig veTniitary in a country M diiitled lid:.
• - ,
tween , tfo.facUoitst like Ireland,..waS ridiculous.—
TheY Must ~tioaelnlier
.it.. Wis collected b! the Catholic
Clergy, and they all kaew.the relation.vAiCh subsisted
between a Priest and his flock,- too well to think of its
being voltiniii"; ililiongli ii. tiiiglit bb; ins many cases.
He would appeal to any One viho had vnited•the.Cotte-
' try ti say vihedier it was not now -in si state of *land ?
11R ninon cotetd- that it Yiiii snot the Asscicliticiti that
firts the eitiielOf the tiiiiiiniliity; but :supposing it was,
if it bad power to cause the tranquillity 'of the country,.
' train had powi,ir todliturb it--(thar). Seth a pow et,
~ ifbuilbtiontht ncit to be in the hands of ant 86ciett.-
ttze
. ' - WS IL Itm
sight
tit OK ithlah a Learned Dilations's
Ills ed hike le isight tie eiadtd, and yet it *as not *ended. He
te*d to ay that it this - attach!e did not paw, couture Aeolian-
dons Would be farina, Whlth, from the nrnalth and lidlisentitisfAn
Pirotestantto and the blither of - the (Welk*, would cause - tad
greateateiisfildon--(Hear, bent', hint). A Nettle Friend cif hit
(the Lord Chancellor) had wished the Association to be speak:My
named in the Bill ; *hill. it first ight, he lane! -Might *liili it
also; but When he cease to eidarider, he mut tigy be thought it
ilas:illtflucit as it . was the it of the Bill to put sloven
l- ' oiss. The 'Noble Lord concluded by moviesthe so.
M 'ale Of the till.
Lord 'LINO said, that *ere the

BM 10

. present . piss,
it wbOld Maid* lire teieMblence which it had been
said lietand bore :to Hell ; and be regretted.
thiit Ministers had no Emissaries ortnvoys abroad whd
could tell them, that their first Measure should be that
Olc-oritilittting the Inhibiting: Of that cettury, if they
wished to preicii4it-li a'port 6ftlie MOrOzi tha
stlinkifelis of iiii.EiirOptin *tr. Wit h 'rtortrd to 'tbd
admmibiration. 4.06110 ill Ireland be thought it wall
rather out of chilacter for. the Ministers to take
to theeiselver iothb ,fare• of the fatt, that wider t
%Affection. AO sateXthatt 170 f .persons'
`cottivnidtd;'elvhdth Mitad Moen sitcittitted. Stit
-
aI tho delectable,admir#txation of whieb the Nob
irdil wits iikiiirtiftty SO proud. the .bloble, tart


~atc...:~:~-~i°„i'-•-,t0m.,._, tifi~_ _-_.. ~..__

also talked of the tyranny of the many over the few, but
he would asli was such the tyranny *bids existed in
'lreland, or was it not the tyranny of the few over thee
many ?—(Hear, hear). If there was a question of free
trifle, the Cabinet was divided—if of South American independ.
ante, the Cabinet was also divided—it ut Catholic Emancipation,
stilt were the Cabinet divided; but it penal laws were the topic,
then was the Cabinet unanimous. and then unfortunately were din'
evil principles predominant—( Hear, hear). The Noble. Lordiaok
eluded by declaring, that be would give his decided opposirio*
to the Bill.
Lord TEYNHAM said lacy words in soppoqof the flak_
Lord GROSVENOR'couId not agree to the propo-
sition of the Noble Earl, unless k had been c tnpled
with some measure adapted to conciliate theCatholic4
at least the measure ought to be suspended.' Had any
thing leen done in the way of conciliation,.he !fad real-
son to believe that the Catholics would have' been,
satisfied even with the Bill before the House. Thee
Committee on the state of Ireland could be productive:
of no beneficial result, unless the question of Emend.,
pation had been distinctly submitted to them; that way
the remedy for all the grievances of Ireland. Had tlttieF
Lord Lieutenant of Ireland recommended this measure,
he must have accompanied it with Catholic Emancipa-
tion. It was known that a Noble Lord, a zealous
fi iend to the Catholic Claims (Donoughmore) had
been entrusted with' the proxy of the Noble Vice-
roy.' He had 110 reason to believe that it wai
the intention of the Catholics to evade the law.
He admitted 'tisk be (LOrd'G.) had it one time doubts
as to the propriety of granting Catholic Emancipation ;
but his opinions and conviction now were very different,.
Unworthy artifices had been resorted to on former oc-
casions to keep alive the prejudices that existed against
the Catbolics--cartloads of No Popery" pamphlets
were disiessisated throughout the country ; and the in.,
scription to the same effect on the walls of the Metro_
polit outrivalled, even the industry of Messrs. EY4y and.
Maitin—(Laughter). It was idle to assett, that the
people of England were, generally speaking, adverse to
the Catholic claims eight years ago ; a 'Bill hid paiied
through Parliament, sub silentio, conferring 'many im-
portant privileges on the Catholics ; and when, in
,the
subsequent year, that Bill became the subject of discos-
sion in that and the other House of Parliament,

not the slightest impression was created through:
ont the country, in consequence of it. The same
arguments were used during the progress of the
Bill in 1807, for the • suppression of the Slave Trade.
If the measure that had just been brought into the other
House happily succeeded, honourable men would no
longer be obliged. to quit the country of their birth;
and, looking back to it, as the land in s hich all their
affections were centred, exclaim with the Poet."
44 Whereer I roan, whatever realms I see,'
My heart, untramiled, fondly turns to thee—
Still to my brother tarns, with ceaseless pain,
And drags at each remove a kngth'ning chain !"
Alt that would be avoided if Ministers would but begin
the work of Conciliation. The Cabinet Ministers shackled
his Majesty' in his gracious intenticnis. As Ding of
Hanover, where he was free from their controul, he wad
all, grace and conciliation.„ As King of Ireland, whets
he was subject to their influence, he was the very reverse
of those qualities. His Majesty should exercise his
judgment, and disiniss that portion of the Cabinet which
was hostile to the'entertainment of the Catholic clues-.
tion. He had the power so to do—" For his breath had
made them, and his breath might make"—and then
,create a Government favourably disposed to the sue..
cess of the measure. Capital would then flow freely;
throughout Ireland ; all hearts would be united ; and
the Catholics might sing—" to triumphe and to Pena"
—and exclaini-- •
Nidsc est bibeodum, nuns pede libero
pulsanda tellus—(Cheers).
The Noble tart concluded by stating that he heartily disapproved
of thelutsent measure.
Lord GOSFORD declared it as his firm conviction,,
that if the' Cinholie Association were let alone, it would
die a natural death ; but every pettifogging Attorney,
•at present-in that country was encouraged to oppose it:
He hoperkthat he might be allowed to too* something
of Ireland, and it was his firm persuasion, that nothing
would prtiduce peace and tranquillity in that country,
but concession: to the Catholic body ; that must be the
foundation of substantial justice. If that question were to be
fairly and boldly advanced by •the Government, they would find
almost every man in the country`an advocate for it—(ilear).
tord LONGFORD thought that the Catholic AsscA
ciation ought to be suppressed,, as it was an enemy. to
the public peace. He approved of the present Bill, Mid
he could assure the House that a large and powerful
body in Ireland' viewed the measure not as a coerciet
but a pretiiiiie one. The Catholic Association was an'
irresponsible bad*, conducting itself in an unconstitu-
tional mariner: Its acts did not tend to conciliate, but
k held up whole classes of the community as objects Of
hatred, and endaioured to perpetuate the' ill feelings that Were
unfortunately engendered- hr thiit unhappy country.
The Duke'of SOSSEX hoped, that if en the present
Occasion he shotild be betrayed into any warmth of ex-
rpression, it would be attributed solely to his warmtbtof
feeling. He rove to express his fires and -decided oppo-
sition to the present Bill, and in so doing to suppoit rite
liberties of the' :object. There had been no motives
• hitherto shewvi for the necessity of 'the measure. In
flintier debatei of a nature similar to the present,-inlmi-
madam had been repeatedly asked far and withheld.
The Speech frtim the Throne had apprised the House
that such a measure was contemplated, but had made
as mention of the documents or papers on which it
Was to he founded. The supporters of the Bill bed
• diced no other reason for it than the aatoriety of the
Association, which he contended was not suflieleat evi-
dence to enable the House to proceed. If the Catholic •
Ashociation was to be suppressed. their Lordships ought
US' be informed of what it was accused. He agreed with
the Noble Lord (Gosford), who had said that if Catholic
Emancipation were conceded, that that -fisseiety. wad
of itself fall to the ground. Noble Lords might smile.
but that was his conviction—(Hear). One Nolile Load
had stated, that to do a great good we might do a little
harm; he did not think that such a proposition was at
all times tenable. The question could only be viewed
in connection with Catholic Emancipation. Since the-
year 1778, many privileges had been granted to the:
Catholics, which so far from doing injury had-been pro-
ductive of immense advantages. If the question were
to be considered solely on the ground of economy, it-
was worthy to be entertained, as, if the dissensions in-
Ireland could be put an end to, the troops that we were
at present obliged to keep up there, might be em-
ployed on other services. The Illustrious Duke here
took a review of the origin of the enactments against
Roman Catholics, which, he admitted, in the reign' of
Kilig William were perfectly just and necessary to
simile the Ptotestant succession ; butithe pointy having
ltehtied; the 'disabilities ought, he contended, to *sassy
414 He sthciught that. the- Catholics ought to be 0-
tattled cuntP*64oloaralk in. all . privacy: sajoyti-

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