Star.
London, England, 1825-04-20 00:00:00

a
tr.sit certamrY endeaxoer to`exalt their swu
oat at the expense of- the 4ivil faith; and therefore;
:Acing theri. to:be itealons fano:airs df .theit of stss
:ern, he would never'consent to intruseing Alma with
ppwer. The grants proposed to the Catholic Clergy
Sr the present measure, in his view, only rendered it
additiunelly objectionable. He was opposed to the
principle of such a grant rather than to the mere pecu-
niary expense; because if once it was carried,-what was,
to hinder eyery other feet opposed to the Establishedi
'Church from claiming I similar provision? That tho
'grant of what was called Catholic Emancipation would
end the miseries of Ireland; it would be ridiculous -col
'expect ; he, personally, was not of opinion that it would
in any way decrease them. The evils which afflicted
Ireland were the want of a resident Gentry, the want of
capftalti the want of commerce, of moral and religious
education. These were difficulties not to be got over—
not to be touched—by a measuter which, to him,
seemed pregnant with danger to the community; and
certainly, so long as he continued to think the religion
in which he had been bred and educ Iced the best reli-
gion on the faee'of the earth, so long he should feel it his duty to
oppose any extension of the political privileges of the Catholics.
Colonel BAGWELL opposed the amendment.
Mr. DAWSON felt much difficulty on the present
occasion, as he had for the first time been dissociated
on this question, from his friend the Member for
Armagh. OR all sides he saw difficulties on this sub-
ject. He feared the continuance of a system that had
been lo loudly arraigned, and on the other hand, he
dreaded to consolidate a party in Ireland that had put
forward such pretensions as had been advanced. Were
he of opinion that peace and tranquillity would follow
the
,proposed concessions, he should not hesitate, like
the Member for Armagh, to undergo the obloquy that',
mutt proceed hem a total change of opinion. But
from the evidence before the House, he was of a totally
diltcrent opinion, and thought the judgment of the
l'ilember fir Armagh had been led astray by the elo-
quence that had been displayed. He could not recon-
cile the turbulence of Mr. O'Coneell in Ireland with the
moderation he ha I shewn here. Oa that account be
anustlock with some degree of suspicion at his evidence.
There was the greatest difference between the political
writings of Doctor Doyle and the evidence he gave
before the Committee. In these writings he launches
into the most furious invectives against the Protestant
Church ; and presented the truest picture of an the-
client son to the See of Rome. But before the Commit-
tee he is a totally d fferent man; he disclaims all power
is the Pope, except in spiritual matters. But as to the
letters under the signature of I. K. L. of which he was
the author, he was short in the extreme. He would teg
of Honourable Gentlemen who had not committed
themselves. to look at those letters, and compare them
with • his evidence before the Committee. The Lich
Catholics were wholly governed by Dr. Doyle and Mr.
O'Connell. There WS; not a Protestant that did not
apprehend a convulsion in Ireland from the concession
41 the Catholic Claims; and there was not a Catholic
that had not looked for more from the Bill than mere
eligibility to office. A Petition had been presented by
an Honourable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett)• in the month
of May,1824, in which the views of the Catholics were
pretty clearly developed. In that Petition they de-
manded the reformation of the Established Church,
Orangemen should be declared ineligible to offices, and
that theCatholicClaims should be immediately conceded.
With permission of the House he would state what had
been the acts of the Catholics when they were in pos-
session of the civil power in Ireland. In 1687, when
the country was governed by the Viceroy of King
James, and when it was intended to restore the tem-
poral as well as the spiritual power of the Romish
Church, the first step taken was to remove all the Pio-
testant Judges, and to supply their place with Catho-
lics. But the removal was not confined to the Judges
only, every office, down even to the low• situation of
constable, Which hid before been held by Prctestants,
was vacated, and Catholics substituted. The hext step
was to disfranchise the corporations; their charters were
taken away, and new charters given, with power to the
principal officers to remove all Protestants who held
office under the former charters. Having succeeded
thus fir, the*Government next tried its power on the
Irish Parliament. A Parliament was soon after held
in Dublin; of which only eight niembeee of the House
of Commons were Protestants, and the Peers who met
in the House were all Catholics. What was the
effect?' Early in the Session an Act was passed which
confiscated the estates of multitudes of Protestants, and
when a Petition, most numerously sighed by that body,
was presented to the House, praying for redress, the an-
swer was, that they must share in the general ruin. To
these facts he begged the particular attention of the
Honourable Member for Armagh. who now seemed to
place such reliance on the evidence of some Roman
Catholics who were examined before the Committee.
After sanctioning the proceedings he had just noticed,
the Parliament next passed a Bill of Attainder, in which,
according to 'Archbishop King. not fewer than 2,600
Protestants were attainted, and of course their proper.
ties confiscated. The whole of the diocesan schools,
which had previously been in the bands of Protestants,
were placed under the superintendence of Catholics, to
the exclusion of Protestant teachers and pupils. The
fellowships of the Dublin University were filled by. Ca
tholics, and a Popish Priest was made Provost. - All the
livings within the gift of Government werefillectby Ca-
tholics; and as a wind-up to this reformation, which
was just of the kind that Dr. Doyle advocated, there
were in the diocese of Dublin 26 Protestant Churches;
occupied by Popish Priests, and 'turned into Catholic
Chapels. These were the effects of Popish ascendancy;
and similar results would follow, if they obtained the
same power in the present day. He could not but
look upon the Petition of the Catholic Association of 1824,
as no more than a corollary of the Catholic proceedings
• of 1687. For these reasons be would oppose the second
reading of the Bill. He felt convinced, that instead of
tranquillizing the country, it would tend only to create
fresh dissensions. He wished the Protestant establish-
ment to remain undisturbed, because the country had
flourished under it : our liberties had been cherished by
it, and he felt convinced they would be less secure by
any measure which should weaken its influence. He
had, from a recollection of froreeie circumstances,' a
dread of Catholicity, and was therefore decidedly op-
posed to any Bill which would again tend to introduce
its power in the country. He would apply to the pro-
posed measure the words of the Poet.-
patria, • Diusin dooms- Blum, et indyta hello
Mania Darnauidum I quaver ipso in Maine pones
Bubstidt, atque utero *Latium quitter *rasa declare.
Inter nus tumour issmemofes, cacique furore, •
FA monstrunt Welke saerata daises arce."
.
Lord was anxious to say a few words on
the subject. 'His inisiety had stet been diminished by

, . „

.••, • . •
the. epeeeb Q the Elm Member for Armagh. He hid
ofcßn Preledeuse. might forget the past, and look
'hi :die, future, asscl that prayer.had • net been
.rendered.
less . fervent• speech of the Hon.. Member foi
Lqndondeal. • He had nothing to do with die Councils
*of 1.. K. L. The _lLisse. had nothing to-do with the
Catholic, Parliament of Kildare, or the reconciliation
of Mr. O'Counell with the Catholsc Association. It Was
not the busineis of any one in that House to bring about
a recoaciliatiok 'diet ought to look only to the effect
the measure would produce. The object of the Hon.
Gentleman who had just sat down was to state the pro-
ceeding,: of the Catholics in the reign of King James.
No doubt the object in that reign wit to establish Ca-
tholic supremacy ; but the Hon. Gendemawshotild look
at all the circumstances—King James was contendini
for his Crown, which he expected to recover by the aid
of Ireland, and was there anything more natural than
to put down Protestants and uphold Roman Catholics?
Where was the danger of Catholic instruments at the•
present day? Who could suppose that Are present
Monarch on the Throne could be injured by Catholic
instrumentality ? The successors of King James had
barbarized the people.of Ireland. All the laws treated
them. as a vile populace. Those times had however gone past.
The day of emancipation had arrived, and all that was wanted was
to sweep away those Statutes which had degraded the people of
Ireland.

Mr. NORTH believed that concessions to the Roman
Catholics were essential to the safety and tranquillity of
Ireland, and, therefore, it was impossible he couldgive
a silent vote. He admired the speech of the Hn.
Member for Armagh, and rejoiced to see the power of
truth obtaining a victory over error. He could not
help aiverting to the arguments which had been offered
ithat evening ; he could not avoid expressing his surprise
"that an Hon. Member should have quitted the main
;object for extraoeous matter. It had been said the
grievances were imaginary. The disqualifying Statutes
affected the Country Gentlemen, and indeed all classes.
The Lawyer was held back till his Protestant competi-
tor passed over him. That was a grievance no man could
bear. They were' the grievances felt by all Catholics.
—The country had a right to the services of all its po-
pulation, and all the members of the Sate ought to
enjoy a fair participation of rights and privileges. They
deprived the Catholic of political power, but they could
not take from him natural power; he was armed with
the sympathy of his fellow-sufferers. The :question
was, whether they would incorperite that power with
the State, or leave it to run in wild delusion? -One of
the objections against. concession was founded on a be-
lief that Catholics kept no faith with heretics. The
Houle ought to rely on the immutable principles of
human nature. There was a rectitude in the human
heart which forbade the adoption of such a principle.
Could the religion of a Fenelon, a Pascal, and our
greatest ancestors, alloir that evil 'principle ? He
was convinced it was not in existence. The Catho?i
tics of Ireland possessed all the elements of power;.
ihey had education and property, and were qua-.
lifted ':for the enjoymnt of the privileges of the'
Constitution. A Roman Catholic presided with ho-1
nour and integrity in the Court of Exchequer in Ire-
land; another in the county of Clare; and the Hon.
Member could not we why the Catholic populstion were not worthy
of those rights which they claimed.
Colonel FORD supported the lhli.
Lord ENNISMORS expressed his intention of opposing the
second reading of the Bill.
Mr. J. DALY thought this the proper time for the
measure. There was a calm in Ireland, but it was not
the calm of content, but the stillness of intense anxiety.,
Every man there, from the Peer to the peasant, was!
united, and if disappointed of the boon now, they would
take it .by force; he did not mean with arms.in their
hands, but the Protestants of this country and of Ireland
would be placed in such a situation of discomfort as would force the'
boon from this country.
Sir N. COLTHURST did believe there was a great
change of feeling in the breasts of the Protestants of
Ireland. He thought it the duty of the Legislature to
take advantage of that feeling to unite the country in one comm
bond of pease and amity.,

Mr. GOULBURN said, that if he could be induced
to believe' that: by' acceding to the present Bill the
House would produce general conciliation and tran-
quillity in Ireland, he should have no hesitation in fol-
lowing the honest and manly course of the Hon. Mem-
ber for Armagh, and in giving to it his decided appro-
bation. He could .not, however, bring himself to en-
tertain such a belief, and he must therefore repeat the
ybjections which he had formerly urged against this
measure. He could not agree in the sentiments ex-
pressed by the Hon. Member for the County of Galway.
To tell him that the Catholics of Ireland demanded
these concessions, and that if they were refused, they
would take them by force, -was not an argument -to
which he could listen.. He was willing to yield to the
voice of reason, but he would be the last man to give way
to anything like a threat on a question of this nature.
He had been hostile to this. measure on former occa-
sions, on the very same grounds that he was now.,He
-held it to be inconsistent with the British Constitution,
which was indissolubly united with the Church Esta-
blishment: he held it to be inconsistent with the first
principles of that Constitutiel. to admit those within its
pale who were actuated by religious feelings of the most
bitter hostility to the Church of England. 'He-agreed
with the Honourable Member for Code-Castle -in
thinking that if they should give their sanction to this
Bill, they would depart from the ancient principle of the
Constitution: . The Constitution was built upon chit
principle—to exclude everything ,that was daogerout
to itsexistetice, and to guard against any evil which it
foresaw by checking /Its operation. Now they were
told to neglect that .4winciple, and to trust to the ser
cuticles Which had been formed to neutralize th
effects of the evil apprehended in the present instancy.
He was not disposed to take that advice, but felt '
dined to adhere to the old. principle. , and not to desert
it for the new. His Honourable and Learned Friend b+
hind him (Mr. North), in one part of his speech, had,
doubted whether' any danger-could arise from granting'
these concessions to the Catholics; and yet, in another
part of his speech, bad admitted that he did be-
hold some danger, but a danger that . was remote,
in its operation. He left his Learned Friend to reconcile'
this inconsistency as he could. He should merely re.
mart, that. the Bill itself admitted that there was some
danger. • If there were not, why should it contain so,
many precautions? Why should it contain a special
certificate as to the loyalty of the Bishops ?—(Greti
uproar in the House). The securities which the Bill
gave .against the apprehended danger wee of three
kindsthe first kind was the declarations in the pre-'
amble; Cie second, the oaths in the Bill itself e and the'
, third, the commission formed to controalibeintercourli
lof the Bishops with the Court of Rome.. He wit pro-'
ceedifig•to thew that- they mere all inefficienti when the
increases( abbe ht the Howe, sad the arks e[ 't Adjourn; tosia
pealed fibs to &dm ,

- • . • •• •
Mr. Secretary PEEL complaineaof Olt interruption
which way.gfeen to his Right Honourable Friend. His,
R'g'ht Itonontable Friend had had eo OPPorims;ii-Of
Lkclaritig pis sentiments . upon this question, and , had
been ninsous to declare them on the present evening.
If it. should tie the opinion of .the House that the time
was ppw come at.. which they ought to adjourn, he
.had
no objection to it, prOildid it were understood that his Honourable+
Friend was In possession of the House on the neat ',matt.
Mr. BROUGHAM said, that from the manner in
which Honourable MeMbers were leaving the House,
it was evident that it would be very inconvenient to pro.
teed further at that moment. He believed that no dis
respect was intended to the Right Hon. Secretary, but
that Gentlemen were leaving the House at that moment
because they were aware that their votes would not be
wanted on the present evening. He fully concurred
with Mr. Secretary. Peel, that the Right Hon. Gentle-
man should be considered in possession of the House
, when the debate was re-opened on a lutureevening.
It was then agreed to adjourn die-debate. Some discussion arose
as to whether the adjournment of it 'Mould 'be till to-morrow or
till Thursday. It was at last settled, titer a conversvion across
the table, between Mr. Pke; and Mr. Iluomuukat, that the adjourn.
meet should be till Thursday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
Moose adjourned at Qua o'Osocu.

LAW REPORT.

COURT OF CHANCERY. APRIL is.
EX PA RTE CACI' A RD.
}I6 LORDSHIP said he supposed it would be necessary
to proceed with the case respecting the committal of
the witness in the barkruptcy against Cachard? It
would be, therefore, for Mr. Horne to proceed.
Mr. HORNE said, he presumed the Counsel on the
other site had addressed everything they had to say
to his Lordship.
The LORD CHANCELLOR observed, that the case
coming before him upon the insufficiency of the eta- i
ruination, it would be for Mr. Horne to state his ob-
jections to their insufficiency. He had read the return
of the examinations from Mr. Wakefield's brief, and it
appeared to him the most convenient way would be to
bear Mr. Horne's objection first, and als r to have the
terms of the different warrants of commitment consi-
dered. He thought the bankrupt's former examination
wanted explanation, and that his last examin rtion had
not sufficiently elucidated or explained what was unsa-
tisfactory in the first. •
Mr. HORNZ proceeded to state his objeetiOns to the examinations.
The result was, that the witness was ordered to be discharged
upon an apparent informality is the commitment.
•I
HIGH COURT OF ADMIRALTY, APRIL 19.
THE MINERVA. •
This was a suit commenced by the seamen of the
Minerva, against the owners of the above vessel, to re
cover wages. • The defence set up was, that the men
had deserted the ship at Calcutta. .
Lord StoweLL gave judgment.—He said, the men
in question had contracted.to proceed with the Minerva
to New South Wales, with convicts, and from thence
to India, with a cargo of the produce of the country.
Before their departure from Wry Bay, the Captain
expressed his determination to visit some of the islands
in the South Seas, and the seamen reminded him, that,'
by the terms of their contract, they had only engaged
to go from New South Wiles to India. The Captain
then, for the first time, informed them, that the words
a or elsewhere," were inserted in the margin of the
Contract, and he said he would carry them where he
,pleased, to It--. if he liked, being a very favourable,
'place for a consignment. In reply to their remonstrances,'
they were threatened with a prison, and the vessel was,
then taken to New Zealand, but not a man durst land, for:
fear of being made a meal's meat of by the cannibals.
They then took a flight to Valparaiso, from thou .lo;
Lima, then to Otabeite, from thence to Singapore, ,and
_then to Calcutta; and in fact, without any profitable:
speculation. The men there performed their duty with
great alacrity; but finding that their hours of rest were
not allowed, they followed the Captain on shore, and
complained to the Town Serjeant. The Captain was
summoned before this Magistrate, and after several
, private and public conferences, he was of the saute opi-
Inion as many of the Magistrates in India are, viz. that
11f sailors leave the ship, whether- right or wrong, they
t had subjected themselves to punishment : but he gave
them the choice of either going to the House of Cor-
rection, or to return to the ship. The men ,very pru-
dently chose the latter, but then the Captain refused to
admit them, and they were imprisoned twenty-five days.
They were then put on boar& a police.boat, and taken
to the ship. Two other charges were made against
them, but dismissed as frivolous. His Lordship, at
very considerable length, went on to observe, that the
words " or elsewhere, did not form a part of the ori-
ginal contract. The sailors were, in his opinion, wholly
unconscious of what they signed when they placed their
signature to the contract, which had been drawn up in
a special manner, and which subjected them to the
pains and penalties of the Act of Parliament, if they
violated the terms of one particular clause, which, in
fact, only applied to the West India trade. His Lord-
ship said, he had examined very carefully all the evi-
dence that had been adduced, and, it only strengthened
his opinion that the words in the margin of the con-
tract, had been an afterthought, and insetted after the
men had signed the instrument. It could not be sup.,
posed that, under the circumstances, they would banish
themselves from their country, their wives, andfamilies,
and travel with the Captain to all parts of the habitable
globe. He considered the men had acted with great
propriety, and he therefore pronounced that they were
entitled to the wages they sought, to recover.

INQUEST ON-CAPEAIN PITCHER.
• Yesterday evening an Inquest was held at the Gun
Tavern, Blackwall, upon the body of Captain T. Pitcher.
The first .wittiess, Thomas Ribbons, a Greenwich
watermark, deposed that on Thursday sen'night, near
eleven o'clock, he took Captain Pitcher and a servant
man belonging to the Captain's father, from the Isle of
Dogs, for the purpose of crossing over to Greenwich.
As.they were on their way there, arid when they had
nearly crossed, the Captain said " there, is some cue
calling sculler, you may. as well go back and fetch
them. Witness at length turned back, and perceiving
it was a steam vessel, waited at thi stern of a ship until
she approached. The tide was running down, and she
was coming up ; she had lights up to distinguish herds
a steam vessel. He rowed towards her as she neared,
. mid-asked if they • wanted a :culler ? to which they
. replied yes, sad said if he would come alongside they
--would stop her dead. The man who had the command
of .ihe vessel said this. Witness got his boat alongside
,Ithe wheel-box of the vessel, when the commander gave
that the rate should be eased, and it was eased ;
she was going at 4 desperate rate, and the swe.l

•
•

min
Ild 1
,
I 4 '