Star.
London, England, 1807-02-17 00:00:00

PAPERS RELATIVE rn THE CARNATIC.

Sir THOMAS TV/CI ON deferrel his n.otion which ftood for
to morrow, until Thurfday ft!imight.
Sir THOMAS TURTON rofe for the purpof of Acing the
Noble Lord oppofite him (Lord Henry Petty) whether he con-
templated the introdunion of any change in the Property Tax,
either with refpeet to the kale of aireffinent or that of exemption?
if the Noble Lord intended any. foal change, it might be uniiecef-
fary for him to trouble the Committee of Finance with any obfer
rations upon the fubjet ; but if not, he certainly thould (peak his
fenriments thereon.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHF.QRER rofe to inform
the Hon. Baronet, that he had no change of the tax in contempla.
tion upon either ground.
Sir WILLIAM CURTI; prefented a petition from certain
merchants of Lond-n ipterefted in the Weft India Trade, againft
the Slave Trade Al.olition Bill now pending.-" Ordered to lie on
the table.
A Meffage from the Lords Rated, that their Lordthips had puf-
fed a bill for relieving from certain difabilities, Lord De Dunftan-
ville, in confequenee of his having fat and voted as a Peer of Par-
liament, before he bad taken the Oaths, and requetting the con-
currence of the therein —Read the firft and fecond time,
and referred to a Sckdt Commiitee, who were ordered to fit forth-
with.
Mr. VANSI TTART prefented an emu.: t ci the net pro4uce
of the Property Tax for the tau two years. Ordered tope printed.
Mr. MANNING gave notice, that hz lb tuld msve to morrow
for copies of fuch grants as had been made by his Majefty of lands
in the Weft ind'a Mends.
Sir CHARLES PRICE prefented a petition from the Ship-
Owners of the Port of London, againft the continuance of the (hip
tonnage duties beyond the war.
Lord TEMPLE wilhed to know if the petition was from all the
Ship Owners ?
Sir CHARLES PRICE anfwered the Noble Lord,that if the
petition was not from the whole, it was from a very numerous
portion of them.
The petitiot: was received. read, and ordered to lie on the table.
Oa the niotinti of theCHA NCELLOR of the I XtdHEQUE.R,
the eonfideration of the Mt for encouraging the Weft India trade
was poitpuned till to-morrow.

THE YINAYCES•

Lord CASTLEREAGH role tornnve, that the
tonfideration of the refolutions which he had the honr.r
of propofing fliould be pollponed to a future day. He
thotrlJ, therefore, with, that the debate on the rein-
luti ms of the Noble Lord (H. Petty) fhould be alfo
poaponed, as he thought it would be equally impof-
-3,1)e for him to difcufs his plan, without at the fame
time difcuiling the objeCtions which had been made
to it ; and he thought the Houle was not then fuffi-
eientlf prepared for fuch a dikullion. He tholtight
it neceffary, befOte he made his motion, to offer one
or two observations, in order to narrow the grounds
of difference between him and the Noble Lord, and
to enable the Houle merely to compare the funda-
mental priticiples on which the different plans relied.
He had relied very much on the idea that, after the
. year IS to, the exceffes of tke Sinking Fund would
he foffi.-ient to produce all the effeCts held forward
by the Noble I.,,rd's plan, without requiring the ad-
ditional loans %hid' the prefent fytiem would render
neeeffary. lkt wifhted to Keep the War Taxes entirely
out of his fyitem, and leave them to expire (as ori-
°litany in.cmled) at the end of the war. Betides
ori-
ginally
great advantage in the plan he propofed, as con-
tradiainguiflied from that of the Noble Lord, it would
prevent the neceffity of exceflive loans. Under the
itlan of the Noble Lord, although the annual loans
began with the moderate fum of 52,000,cc01. yet
they were to increafe to the enormous am, trot of 32
millions, (fir:mid the war continue) which would be
a firm fo great as to disturb completely the money-
market, and produce the moll ferrous inconveniences
—The modifications which he would propofe would
not only relieve the money market from that danger,
but would alfa lave a considerable deal of expence.
Without abfolutely propofing his modifications for
the entire periol of twenty years, he would fay that
it they were adopted for nine years only, confider-
able benefit mull refult to the public, and at the end
of that period, Iviii.itlers would be able to judge whe-
ther it was probable that the greater part of the re-
maining eleven years would require a war or a peace
criablillunent. If all this period fhould be a period '
of war, then certainly on his ftippofition, fame ad-
ditional taxes mull laid on—but if peace fhould
t •ke place, then there would be no occafion for ad-
ditional taxes. If on the one hand his plan would
tender it neceirary to add two millions a year to the
taxes—on the other hand, it mull tlidered that
the intereft of the debt which would be contraeted
by thole fupplemental loans, would be much
greater. By the plan which he had the honour to
propofe, the loan would never, in any year during
the whole period, exceed fifteen millions, whereas
by the New Syllem that was propofed, it was to in-
creak regularly from twelve millions to thirty•two.
1-le therefore confidered, that thole two advantages
of keeping the loans within a moderate compafs, and
preventing the mortgage cl the War Taxes, were
odvantagec far more than equivalent to the inconve•
uience of finding two :'r three millions of additional

taxes in the period of loch a number of years. He'
deprecated the fyllem of railing money by thole'
fupplemental loans which had been propofed.--
He was very anxious not to appear to give any
vexatious oppofition to the plan of the Noble
Lord, and therefore very loco after it was Rated,
he had put him and the Houfe in poffeflion of the
general outline of the objeClions which firft firuck
him : but when it was confidered that the Noble Lcrd
had had many months to confider and mature his
plan, hut that he had only one week to confider of it
previous to making his objections, it was by no means
furprifing that he was not perfectly prepared to dif-
cofs the plan in detail. He had begged of the Noble
Lord a continuation of the tables of calculaticns, for
certainly he had had no time to make detailed calcu-
lationc, according to the general view that he bad
taken of the fuhjeCt. It would be too much to call
upon Parliament formally to fanetion to complicated
a fy Rem upon fuel] a flight confideration—for, if in
the colt, fe of a year or two, they fhould be forced to
depart materially from the plan now propofed to
them, that abandonment of it would be attended with
tome lots of honour. It would be laid tbat they had,
like children, haßily adopted what they were after-
wards obliged to throw away. He therefore would
with that the Noble Lord would call fcr whatever
fum of money the exigencies of the public fervice
night require, in order to give the Houle full time
to confider the plan. He would (till rather %Hit
that he would, for the prefent year, borrow the eleven
millions that he confidered fuflicient, on the Confoli-
dated Fund, and leave a year to confider of the pro-
priety of adopting or rejeCting the new fyflem of Fi-
nance. For his part, he was of opinion that the
data of the Noble Lord were fallacious, as not being
likely to equal the neceffary expenditure of the coon
try. He therefore thought the propofed fyftem
could not Taft more than a year. As he thought
that the Houfe could not well negative the refolutions
after they were agreed to in the Committee, he con-
fidered that it would be by much the heft way to ad-
journ the debate until the Houfe had a little more
time to confider the fubjeCt He therefore moved,
that the further confideration of the Refolutions he
had propofed fhould be adjourned to this day fe'n-
night.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
did not feel it neceffary to make any particular reply
to what had fallen from the Noble Lord, but wifhed
to (late, that he had no objeCtion to any day that the
Noble Lord might thick proper to namelor the dif-
cuflion upon his own Refolutions. He could not fee
any argument againff the propriety of going into the
bufinefs, immediately, that was fixed for tha tday.—
He could fay for Government, that the prefent was
n-a a queflion of confidence, but one that folirited
the deliberate enquiry and ferious invefligation of the
Houfe. The Refolutions were moved two or three
weAs ago, and agreed to, and a fortnight was then
confidered as Cadent time for the Houle to examine
the principles on which they were founded. A farther
delay had taken place from Wednefday Taft to the
preterit day, and it was now propofed to bring in
the Bill on Wednefday next, founded on the Refo•
' lutians, which did not arife out of financial embar-
raftments.

Lord Cafilereagh's Refolutions were pofiponed till
Monday next.
Mr. LONG Paid, that fence the papers had been
laid on the table, many perfons who were converfant
with the fubjed had obterved that there was not fuf-
ficient time afforded for examining them, and %gibed
the confederation of them to be poßponed for a few
days longer. He fhould have thought, from the
candour cf the Noble Lord, that this requeft would
have been granted. Called upon now to the dircuf-
fion, he could not refrain from making a few °bier.
rations. He did not objeft to carrying the principles
of the Ref notions into effeft to a certain extent, but
he did entertain confide:able objeetions to the puthing
them to the extent propofed. No nun could think
lightly of the financial fyflem perfevered in for Come
years pall, who confidered it attentively ; but there
might be Error in pertinacioufly adhering to a fyftem
under difftrent circumftances. The queflion was as
to the inconvenience of loch a mode of taxation,
compared with others. If frefb taxes could not be
laid on yithout inconvenience, what were our other
refources ? Thefe were the War Taxes. He muff
oiled to any plan f-ir twenty years. The Honour-
able Member went into Come calculations,and (hewed
that various duties, loch as thole on tea and fpirits,
would not keep up to their prefent amount at peace.
The Noble Lord might remember, when the New
Syflern was propofed at firti, that it met with much
oppofition; and tome even Paid of it that it was not
taxation, but confifcation. The Noble Lord calcu-
lated upon thirty two millions annually as fufficient
to defray the expences of the war ; but he did not
Teem to think of the probable depreciation of money.
He then proceeded to notice the original principle of
the Sinking Fund, and the departure from it in I 802.
It was undoubtedly a Fund to be held facred ; but
what were its objects ? Not merely to roll up, and
accumulate for the extinguithment of the debt ; but
to keep down the debt, and prevent it from becoming
buithenfome to the public. The maximum was
fistd at four millions. The alteration in t 802 was
affented to by his late Right Honourable Friend—
but highly as he admired his great financial talents,
be felt difficulties in acceding to his opinion, which
Rill remained unremoved. If the prefent plan were
confined to five years, he Amnia give it his glint.—
No tax then would have been wanted for three years.
This part of the plan was popular and captivating—
and he approved of it as a repofe from taxation,
which might afterwards be retorted to with more
vigour. But it was too much to call for the adoption
of a fyllem for twenty years, in data fu uncertain as
the probability that thirty-two millions would defray
the annual war expencet. It was not poffible for him
to go immediately into the Committee on fuch uncer-
tain grounds, and it was unbecoming the dignity of
the Houle.
Mr. TIERNEY obferved, that the chief objec-
tion of the Hon. Member was, that the plan was
deviled for the operation of twenty years. Now
the plan really did not tie up Parliament, but only
held out to Parliament, and the country, and Europe,
what might be done fix twenty years to come, if
neceffary. Nothing in the meafure prevented the
Haute from fhortening the time. But be had no
objection to arguing the whole quellion to the fulleft
went. It wa, adm;tred in all private converfation,
and public difcalfion, by every body, that it was

ltigldy iticonvetlielit to proprice new tarts at prefent,
and there was a general dirpofition'to leave eff tax.
ation for a time, it prairie ; and it was rightly oh•
ferved, that this would be tound beneficial, (hoed
we be obliged to refort to taxation again. It might
he that War Taxes would not produce fo much after
the conclufinn of peace. But this meafure did not
cut up the future refources, but weed be the means
of laying on future taxes to a farther amount. The
whole principle of the operation was this, that within
the amount of the prefent taxes, wars and war•loans
might be fupported for a confiderable time ; but it
never was imagined that Parliament was to he pre.
vented from removing any of thefe War Taxes if
expedient, and making good any deficiency by far-
ther taxation. Even it they did not produce fo much
in time of peace, they would enable us to provide
with greater cafe other impofitions. There was, he
rirferved, too great a difpofition to fuppofe that the
Sinking Fund was a boon to the Stockholder : it
was nn Inch thing. The country gave an advantage
to the Stockholder ; but that advantage was to be
returned to the country. He never could admit that
the touching the Sinking Fund was an injury done
to the Stockholder ; but the notion had prevailed fo
long, that there was great delicacy required in taking
Reps the other way. He need his objections to the
meafures of the Noble NTH-count in rBox, arid the
prefent circumftances jnflified his opini ins. The
fcheme had the great advantage of going on with-
out new taxes. The Hon. Member (poke of the de

preciatiOn of money ; but in fa& there was no
pledge that more than 32,000,0001. would not be
wanted. But it was a priAid fad to (late to the
country, and to all Europe, that we could raife thir•
ty two millions a year fora length of time without
laying on additional burthens. It mull be a fuljec‘t
if alloniihment from one end of Europe to the
other. It was poirible we might want more ; but
there would be the ordinary mode of loans. With
refpeet to fubfidies, they were ditlinft things, and
mutt be regularly confidered, and had no particular
conneflion with poflible future loans, which might be
reforted to in cafe of deficiency of fupply. It was a
great thing thus to {hew what the country could do;
and no man would difpute, that, upon the principle
Rated, thirty-two millions might be railed for twenty
ye.trs. lie did not exaeily know what was meant
to be deduced from the fuppofed depreciation of mo-
ney. He always mlderliood that the heft way to
prevent that depreciation was to avoid heavy taxa-
tion. The prefent plan took the only wife and praai.
cable mode of meeting circumftances, and hit off the
happy medium between the different modes propofed
or adopted at different times. He thought the Houfe
fhould go at once into the Committee to examine the
details of the queßion.
The Houfe then went into a Committee, Mr. Hob-
houre in the Chair.

Mr. ROSE was aware of Tome difadvantages in
oppofing this plan. He had hoped that when the
Noble Lord praifed his late Right Hon. Friend, he
was about to propofe fomething fimilar to his plan :
but it was rather the converfe. The Noble Vifcount
(Lord Sidmouth) adopted his meafure relative to
the fund, not from want of attention to his duty, for
he, in a manly way, propofed new taxes. When Mr.
Pitt originally propnfed the Sinking Fund, he limit-
ed it to four millions, and the excels was applicable
to the Ways and Means, and he acted upon it to a
certain extent, for in 1792 he added 200,0001. One
great objection with him (Mr. Rofe) was, that the
meafure before the Houle would not abfolutely, but
in point of fad, tie up Parliament for twenty yeses.
It might be repealed, it was true ; but his great ob-
jeaiou was that it was founded entirely on the War
faxes. lie thought they could not depend poll-
tively upon the amount of Excite and Cultoms for
ten years. The plan not only bound them for twenty
years, but carried the fyflem to an extent extremely
alarming. There was no difficulty in borrowing
thirty millions, but he taw that they would neceffa
lily be required for the public fervice, and that nol
provifion was made for excels, which he found in the
Taft twelve years amounted to three millions a year,
and in the IA year to five millions, but which he
would take at two millions and a half a year. What
effect would that have with refpeet to fupplementary
loans ? Gentlemen would perhaps think that the
money market would hardly bear up againft this.—
How different would be thefe confeqnences from the
operation of the prefent Sinking Fund. The Hon.
Member then entered into a variety of remarks, ten-
ding
to fhew the effect of taxation on the different
branches of the revenue. The Tea Duty was low-
ered by the Commutation Tax, and increaled the ar-
ticle from four millions to twenty millions of pounds
weight. Our exports to China were So,oool. and
now amounted to one million ; and the tonnage had
increafed from five thoufand to eighteen thoufand
fince the Commutation Tax. With refpeet to rum,
before the Al, the duty was fix fhillings per gallon,
and the confumption 1,342,000 gallons. The duty
was reduced to four fhillings, and the confumption
had increaled to 2,441,000 gallons. The duty
is now eleven fhillings, of which three fhillings and
fixpence are the war duty ; fo that the remaining
duty is as high as before. Brandy was nine fhillings
and fix-pence, and produced 754,000 gallons. The
duty was reduced to eight fhillings, then to feven
fhillings and fix pence, and now was as high as thir-
teen fhillings and eight pence. Britifh Spirits were
much in the fame proportion. With rerpeCt to
Goods and Wares, Sugar bore 32 per cent. duty,
and a further duty of ts per cent. But planters
could not pay thus in peace, and it was fo under flood
when the duty was laid, that 25 per cent. was as
much as they could bear, and that the difference in
infurance, &c. in time of peace, would have little
effect towards compenfation. The Wine Duty was
not a war duty, but was made perpetual laft year, to
put an end to the mifchief of certain fpeculations.—
Ibis did not come under the Refolutions, but might
he looked to in confidering the fubjeet, as the Wine
increafed greatly in quantity by the reduaion. As
to Goods and Shipping, he never felt more furprifed
than to find them under the Refolutions, and could
fcarcely and words to exprefs his aftonifhment. If
Gentlemen recolleCted what came before the Com-
mittee of Trade, they would aetuallffuppofe that in
certain articles of Linen and Cotton the Germans,
particularly in Ituffia, had underfold us. If thefe
duties remained after peace, it was worth while to
confider how far they would materially affect our
Cart ying Trade. In all the great articles, we thould
lofe in our rev;nuc!. Mcafures had certainly been

adopted for 14( ime years, to the great credit i,r th.ife
who fuggefted and carried them into effeCt, sand they
had been puthed as nearly as poffohle towards per.
•feCtion : but he could not be fo fanguine as to erpeet
any checks would be able to at!l against the eflea,
of Inch uncommonly high dtrit.s. A frnitggler
could five himfelf by making one voyage out of tour,
and lie knew, in the county he lived in, the diffialty
of counterafting them already. The Malt Duty, be.
fore the prefent, *ts fifteen pence abauiflineedi_at
A duty was propofed by Mr Pitt, in addition, „t
three pence, to expire at the end of three years—
but this was fo very unpopular that it was gives up
at the end of the &II year, and the duty rem
fifteen pence. In 1832, Mr. A.tidingtnn propofed
duty of one {billing, which was acqkriefced in, under
peculiar circtintltances. A further duty of two fhil-
lings had been impofed during the war, as a war tax.
This had not indeed diminifhed the confumption, but
it had had bad effeCts in other ways. It had been
held out that the income tax was to ceafe after the
war; but he thought it better to retain a portion
of that tax than to retain the additional duty on
malt or at all events to divide the burden, which
might be done even by retaining one per cent. of the
Income Tax. If the Noble Lord's fyttem was fit to
he adopted, he would rather mortgage the Income
'Fax than the War 'Faxes ; and every Gentleman
who heard him would find that he atitually paid lets
by that tax than lie paid by taxes levied merely upon
confumption. Befides, all the Income Tax came into
the Public Funds ; but the produce of the Taxes on
confumption fuffered great diminutions. Gentlemen,
however, paid, without complai i ig, greater Dims in
this way, and dated to draw their purhniiings when
the Colic dor came round to take the hard money not
of their pockets. He withed the Noble Lord to de.
liberate a little further, and to give more time to the
Houle to examine into the details and confequences
of fo new a fchemft Was it langnage fit for a great
flatefman, to recommend a new fcheme of finance,
without looking fuels at the probability of events in
a few years to come, a, the time he was endeavouring
to tie up the hands of Parliament for twenty years ?
The whole produce of the taxes he fliould take at
35,533 0001. ; againa which lie fhorild fit off the
whole in:erett of the debt, amounting to 27,465,c0ct
the Sinking Fund 1,230,0031. ; and the charges of
the Confolidated Fund t,735,3331. makingsa total
of 33,433,3c01. in account agaitilt the Revenue. Then
the inter ell of Exchequer Bills he thould take at
300,0001. and mifcellanies at 310,0001. He would
Rate the Army expcnces at only two-thirds of Lord
Sidmonth's peace ettahlifhment, without taking any
thing to account for the charges of lag yea-, which
brought on an additional charge of 600,0001. to be
felt in our peace eflabliffiment. Thefe two-thirds
merely would require a hum of 7,430,3331. He thould
likewife take the Navy at the twoahirds, without rec-
koning any thing for the increafed charges in conic-
quence of the meafures of the Noble Lord oppofite,
and which Amounted to the hum of 333,05001. The
Navy account then would be 4,854,0331. The Ord-
nance he thould (late at 533,3331. The Militia was
rather difficult to eltimate at prefent ; but he
ffinuld Rate that branch of expence at 300,0001.
Thefe calculations would make up a total of
43,718,c0c1. leaving a deficiency of revenue to the
amount of 8,218,3331. If we locked up our sat
taxes, even though they thould be produelive, we
thould find ourfelves, at peace, under the neceffity of
providi-ag taxes to the amount of eight millions. Was
it then prudent or difcreet to prefs this new fytteni?
He conceived that he had Rated a falid ohjettion to
the new plan. It was upon the foundation laid doers
by Mr. Pitt that this new fcheme was railed. The
way in which he nurfed the revenue was, by watch-
ing carefully the produce and variation of the taxes.
When he came in, there was an unfunded debt of
27,000,0001. and the three per cents. at 52, and in
three years he In managed the Finances, as to be able
to propofe the Sinking Fund, which was the baits of
the prefent great plan. In 1784 and 1785 he did rot
lay on new taxes to a greater amount than
r,i00,0001. and thole very taxes in 1803 came to
55,333,3331. and they were then confolidated with
other taxes. His own advice had been to fee, when-
ever peace arrived, what taxes could remain, and to
take all effeetnal Reps to check fmuggling. These
were three errors v hich he ward the Noble Lord
to confider, wiling from thefe circumttauces :
that the expenditure on an average of twelve years.
had exceeded 3,000,0001. per annum. Secondly,
That the Loans would not pay themfelves off, as the
Noble Lord had fuppofed; and thirdly, that the war
taxes would not be produCtive in time of peace. He
declared folemnly, that he had no with nor intention
to embarrafs the G( verament ; but he thought that
the mode they thould adopt would be to try oneyear
only. He had no objeCtion to go one year without
taxes, by borrowing. But he mutt continue to think
that to tie up thefe duties in the prefent way, would
he in the highell degree imprudent. He did, there-
fore, earneilly and anxionfly implore the Noble Lord
not to prefs the adoption of his plan with In mach
halle. What benefit could he promife himfelf from
thus tying up the hands of Parliament ? He wifhed
Gentlemen to confider this matter fully. Every el•
porting merchant, and every manufadurer, earl
Weft India Planter and merchant, and the DireBors
of the Ealt India Company, were deeply interetled
in this important fubjeft. The Adminiaration in
which he had on office, never had laid a duty 03
Eastern traffic that the EaR India Company did not
nbjeet to : bet here the Noble Lord was laying or:
with a heavy hand an additional ten per cent upon
tea. Nothing was more aveife from his mind, than
to embarrafs Government. The Noble Lord at die
head of the Trearury was not more defirous of keep-
ing up the revenue than ht himfelf was ; and he
gave Minifters credit Mr their difpolitinn to do fo
but he mutt confider, that more time thould be given
for the genetal coitfideration of this new and impar•
tans
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIIER.
felt extremely anxious that the merits of the pith
which he had the honour to propofe, as all() of the
objeClions which had been made to it, thould owet
the fullea difctillinn in that Houle. He was ans:i
ous that the Refolutions which he bad Pr'rfr
thould be this night agreed to in the Committee, bot
that would give him no particular advantage in the
difcuffion, as there would be many fubfcquent period'
in which it might be debated, both in the Prip`iPle
and in detail. He allowed that the Right Hon, Gem:
tleman (Mr. Role) had Rated his caj:Ctions wi•4

v

great fairners and candour but as for the delay that
was afked he would allure the Committee, that if he
were to fuppofe that by contenting to thole refolu
tions, the Houfe would be pledged and bound to per.
fevere in the propoled fyllem without any modifica-
tion, or if he had the lead idea that it was polliAe
that fueh mifery and ruin could refult from it as the
Honourable Gentleman on the other fide fuppofed,
be would be the lan man to prefs forward fuch a dif
cuftion. He conceived, however, that on the contrary,
one of the principal merits of the fyitem was, that
though it looked profpatively to the future, it by no
means bound the country for the future, not to adopt
all the modifications of ir, which the change of circum
fiances might require. It would be vain, indeed,
to pledge the country for ever to any particular fyf-
tem. The lyricist of the War Duties had already
been fo far departed from, that goo,oool. a year of
them had been made permanent. If then he (hould
not now (peak of the future advantages which would
refult from the fyftem, he (hould fay, that for the pre-
fent year it would produce great advantages. It was
of the greateft advantage that the country (Mould I
have at leaft one year of repofe, after the heavy bur-1
dens that had been irnpofed upon it in former years.
When Minitters felt ftrongly the advantage of giving
the country Come repofe from taxation, it was not
with a view of obtaining popularity, but becaufe they
thought it to be the belt mode of economizing the re-
fources of the country. It would allow the country
time to recruit its ftrength, and acqui-c new refources.
If, when its ftrength was recruited, and its refources
increefed, the Houfe fhould think fit to adopt a.iy
other rule, or any other fyaem of finance, their tatk
would be carter, and the burdens of the country
would be lefs felt, on account of the repofe altar
this meafure would give to the country, while it
continued in operatiJn. As to the objection of the
War Duties not being likely to be fo productive if
continued in a time of peace, that was no new ob-
jettion, but one that he had himtelf anticipated in
his flatement. He protected againft the notion
going abroad, that the preterit fyftem was completely
to fetter every defct iptiun of the war taxes. It was
judged neceffary to give fume repofe to the country
from the perpetually increafing burden of annual
taxation : in order to do this, there was no other
way but to take the reprefentative value of the loan
to be railed from the war taxes now fubfitting. When
this plan was objeeled to, what was propofed to be
fubitituted in its room ? Why, (imply an addition to
the permanent taxes. This propofal, however, (truck
at the very principle upon which the plan he propof.
ed was founded, for inftead of giving any relief from
the trilling preifure, it went to too cafe it. If the
only remedy propofed was an addition to the pernta-
oext taxes, that could be done at any time. There
was no particular merit in that fuggeltion. As to
the expedient of increafing the permanent taxes, if he
might be allowed to fpeak ludicroufly on a ferious
ftibjeft, he would fay of it as was mentioned in one
of our Poets, of a perfon's (Sir John Cutler's) way
of living : • .

" Live like you, Sir John,
" That I can do when all I have is gone."
In the fame way he thould fay, that however defec-
tive the plan propoled might turn out to be, yet,
even if it completely failed, they might then have
recourfe to what was now propored in the &ft inaance,
the increafing the permanent taxes. The Noble Lord
and the Right Hon. Gentleman had both agreed that
the revenue might be improved by care and manage-
anent ; and they furely had no reafon to fuppcfe that
care and management would not be ufed by his
Majefty's prefent Minillers ; and, therefore, if the
fibfiaing duties fhould, on the return of peace, fall
Mort cf their prefent amount, it ought to be fuppofed
on the other hand, that in other instances the revenue
snuuld be improved by the regulations to be adopted.
He should firti fpeak of what the Right Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Role) had dwell on at fame length,
the means of reprefling fmuggling. He was fuse
that this was a rubjeet in which the late Admit•
niaration were Aided by men of very confider
able talents, and that they had adopted thole mea-
lures which appeared to them heft to produce the
defired effeit. As for his part, he felt himfelf
comparatively untutored in this rerpee, and that
he had a great deal to learn ; but, front the confi-
derarion that he had then been able to bellow upon
the fubjea, it appeared to him that much might be
expeeled from an improved fyftem of reward to
thofe employed in the prevention of fmuggling, and
making it more their inter& to make difcoveries : to
break and dearoy the instruments of fmuggling, to
feize the horfes, break the carriages, and have the
veffels themfeves confifcated, would do a great
deal. He alfo thought a great deal might be done
by additional regulations in the regiltry of vet=
Eels, and in making the Owners feverally refpon-
ale. There means •nnuld, as he conceived, elle&
a very confiderahle improvement in increafing the
revenue and repreffing fmuggling. It was alto to
be confidered that, although a large military Oa-
blifhment in time of peace had its inconveniencies,
yet at leaft it could be made available in increafing
the revenue, by preventing fmuggling. Thole means
of increafing the revenue at leap held out fair ground
of hope. He felt himfelf very defireus of explaining
an expreflion of hi,, which was =lamed as a poll-
tive pledge given to the country, that at the expira-
tion of the war the Property Tax thoold immediately
ceafe. It never was his intention to give fuch a fpe-
cifie promife and pledge, but merely to (late, that
the country would poffers fuffizient means and re.
fources at the end of the war to repeal the Property
Tax, if it were judged expedient to repeal it. He
could not pretend to fay what would be the exad
circumftances of the country at that period, or what
it would then b: advifable to do ; but in that refpeet
be would with to be guided, in a great meafure, by
what would then appear to be the general feeling of
the country n that fubjeft. Jo his own private opi-
nion, he agreed very much with what had been Dat-
ed by the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rofe)
that it would perhaps be better to continue a (mall
part of the Property Tax, than fame other taxes
upon Cunfumption. This would, however, be a
queflion which would then he determined by the cir-
cumftances of the times, and by the judgment and
general feeling that would refult from thnfe circum-
Dances. independent of the Property Tax, there
were new taxes to the amount of nine ns
pledged for the future War Loans ; and certainly
when peace fhould arrive, there would he little diffi-
culty in arranging what part of tilde taxes the bar-

den mild bell he placed on. The Right Honoura-
ble Gentleman had Rated, that the probable rife of
the Funds would he injurinusto the redemption of the
caeital. This injury would, however, be only to
the redemption of the capital of the debt already in-
curred, and out of the loans which might be contrael-
ed for in future. The Noble Lord (Lord Calllereagh)
had objefled arongly to the Supplemental Loan=, on
the ground that it was borrowing at compound in-
tereß, but it mull be confidered on the ether hand
that the relief of the people from frefh taxes was a
benefit in a compound ratio. They were heed from
the payment of new taxes ; and the intereß of thole
taxes, as well as the profits of the various perms
whofe hands they paired through, was alfo fared.
He admitted that it was borrowing at compound in-
tereß, but that confederation was outweighed by
the compound benefit which he had (fated. The
Noble Lord relied his objeftions on two points prin-
cipally. Firft, he objeeted to it as legiflating for
futurity, and fecondly becaufe he conceived the data
that were taken of aftual expenditure fallacious. As
to the objeCtion of the War Taxes failing in their
produce, if they fhould be continued after the war,
that objeetion did not appear to him entitled to much
weight ; for, if they fla iuld fail in any inft ince, it
would only place the country in the fame neceflity
that it is in at this moment of making up for any
deficiency by fome other tax. As to the inci cafe of
the amount of the expenditure, it was very poffible
that it might take place, but he had no other criterion
to judge of the -xpence of future years but by the
ladual expenditure. He could nut pretend to cal-
culate for fubfidies or expediri ins to 'he Continent,
or any other unforefeen expences. The plan he had
the honour of propofing mutt certainly, if adopted, he
made applicable to the circumliances of the country. It
was not meant to be a plan for confining the exertions
or the energies of the country within any fixed limi
but it was introduced as a fyftem of financial activity,
which was not only to hufband the refources of the
country, but to bring them forward, when neceffery,
in their fulleß force. By the prefent plan no new
taxes would be neceffary for the next three years,
and only an addition of 293,0001. in the courfe of the
fucceeding (even years, if the war fhould continue ;
and after the expiration of thole ten years, from the
operation of the Sinking Fund, no new taxes would
be necelfary for the ten following years. If he were
to ftippole the future expenditute to be higher by two
millions annually than it is at prefent, that difference
would not at all undermine or make the foundations
of the prefent plan. In that cafe, inflead of 300,0001.
of frefh taxes in the next ten years, it would be ne
ceffary to have sos,cool. and in the fucceeding pe-
riod of ten years 330,0001. This would be the whole
difference which would be made in twenty )ears,
upon the fuppofition that the expenditure fhould be
higher by two millions than what it is calculated at.
But the Noble Lord affumed a pofition which he
I could by no means grant him, that there was a right
ion the part of the public to dirpore of the excelfes of
the Sinking Fund, in any manner that might bell
fait the public convenience, without confulting the
intereß of the Stockholders, or giving them any com-
penfdtion for this di "pofition of the fund. He agreed
with the noble Lord, that the Sinking Fund, when
it was firft eflablifhed by Mr. Pitt, was a mere boon
to the Stockholders, and they would have no right to
difpute any future difpofition : this was certainly true
as to the Subfcribrrs to former Loans, but to all thole
who contraded for Loans, after the Sinking Fund
was ellablifhed by law, the cafe was different. They
gave higher terms for the loan in confequence of the
eßablifhment of the Sinkiog Fund, and it would be
a violation of public faith and juftice to deprive them
of the full advantages of it. The Noble Lord's fyf-
tern was to take from the Stock-holders what was their
tight, without any compenfation. The plan that he
propnfed would not touch the Sinking Fund in that
manner, nor delay for a tingle moment the redemp-
tion of the debt, but on the contrary it would accele-
rate it. By the ntiw fyftem the fublifling debt would
be redeemed in tvJenty-four years, whereas by the
fyflem in force it would take near thirty, and by the
plan propofed by the Noble Lord (Lord Caftlereagh),
it would take thirty-two. This was a violation of
faith toward. the Strckholders that he could never
bring himfelf to cenfent to. The Noble Lord's mode
of payirg off the debt put him in mind of the fol-
lowing lines :
" Anxious the public debt to pay,
" Like prudent Fabiu., by delay."
The Noble Lord was certainly right in laying, that
by thole fupplemental loans the whole amount of
the money borrowed was greater than if dire& loans
had been railed according to the ?relent &item, but
he fhould alfo have Rated that the Sinking Fund ap.
plicable to the redemption of the debt would be
greater. In the cafe of the debts of a nation, as
well as of an individual, the means of paying the
intereß of the debt fhould be provided fur as well as
the debt itfelf. As to the means of the country in
meeting a peace etlablilhment, he thought they were
as great now as at any preceding time. In the year
1785, our peace eftablifhment colt near five millions,
and the revenue applicable to the fupport of it,
amounted only to between three and four millions.
Mr. Pitt, how-ver, loon found means net only to
raife the revenue up to the expenditure, brit to fet
apart a million annually for the Sinking Fund, at
the clofe r.f the laft war. Mr. Addington WAS able
to find refources not only for the peace ellablifbment,
but to redeem. the fifty-fix millions, for which the
Property 'l'ax was mortgaged, and he could feel no
doubt bet that on the return of peace the country
would find abundant means and refeurces to fupport
whatever peace ellablifhment it might confider neceffa-
ry. His Lordfhip then begged to call the attention of
the Committee to No. 8, of the Noble Lord's (Cattle-
reagh) refolution. By thi ,it was flared, that a fum
of t t,000,c001. a year, required in aid of the twenty-
one million of war taxes, to complete the War Ex•
peaditure of 22,000,0c01. might be railed according
to the following mode, without mortgaging the
war taxes, or rendering new taxes of any greater
amount neceffary. The bums requited to provide for
A Loan of ri,oco,coc.l. per annum, fur 20 years is Ll 4 666,660
The resources available amount to - 13 856 o6t

Which left a deficiency of 809,7991. ; which-defi-
ciency exceeding only by 3694311. the charges for
Supplementary Loans, would remain an additional
charge to be provided for. A fame more ruinoru
than this he thought could not well he imagined, 1, r
the Nnble Lurd would, in 1826, have a cirbt of
273.560,5311. with a Sinking Fund of 8,000,0001.
which bore nirproportion.ta the living which would

accrue to the public by following the plan which was
detailed in the Refolutions then under the confidera

thin of the Houle. The fecond plan of ti.e Noble
Lord, he faid, was detailed in No. 9 ; which Rated,
that when the loan of the year in war does no: ex
coed the amount of the Sinking Fund in the faid year,
inftead of making., provifion for the intereft of the laid
loan by new taxes, the fame 'hook) be provided for
by and out of the interett receivable on the amount of
Rock in that year redeemed by the Commitlinners of
the Nati, nal Debt, in which cafe the amount of the
debt unredeemed would continue ltationary during
the war.

The Sinking Fund was at prefent L 58,515,042
It would be, in all ' 11,14;274
That the charges for four years Loan, as above, for
eleven millions in each, taking credit for 385,5151.
Annuities, amounted to 2,547,8101. Taxes required
for the next four year: would amount to 626,9701. fa
that the Noble Lord propofed to continue borrow.
ing or, the old plan, till the Sinking Fund was equal
to .he debt. He would want taxes for the &II tour
years to the amount of nearly 700,0001. and as foon
as the Sinking Fund reaches the amount of the loan,
he would appropriate the produce to his own ufe, and
let free the Sinking Fund. The Nable Lord, by this,
excluded from his confideration the increafe of the
expenditure, and went on increafing the debt, with-
out increafing the means to nay it, by which
means it might happen that the principal might fail
at the very moment when we flood moll in need of it.
—He was now come to No. to, which was the lath
refolution. The Noble Lord fuppofed 1 z,000,c001.
to be railed, and that the interelt and Sinking
Fund for one year, w ,uld be 1,z00,0001. To cover
that interell and Sinking Fund at fix per cent. a fund
of 72,0001. might be provided, which being railed on
' a one per cent. Sinking Fund, might be contidered
as an annuity fur for ty-three years, and would amount
to 43,344,0001. , In this flatement the Noble Lord
had Wien into an extraordinary error ; he had added
1 two amounts together, as a whole charge of the fame
1
account, whtn the fad was, that one was borrowed
to pay the other. As if a fum of money was bor-
rowed from A. by B. and another film borrowed af-
terwards by B. front C. for the purpufe of paying A.
he made thole two borrowings diliind accounts, and
by adding them together formed two furs intlead of
one, and by tl.at produced the boafled fuperiority
which he claimed as his own plan. He then faid,
that after having given the plan of the Noble Lord
every attention in his power, he had Hill more confi-
dence It the opera firms of his own plan, than when he
firth opened it to the Houle, and he could not conclude
without obferving the great probability there was of
a rife in the Public Funds, from the operation which
it would have. He could (peak with confidence, that
in the fhort fpace of a fortnight it had operated fo as
to raife the fpirits of the monied men, and produced
a poll important effeEl. He had mentioned, on a
former occation, that all flores ufed during the war
would be likely to increafe in their nominal value,
and he thought, that if one fyftem was more calcu-
lated than another to check it, it mull be that kind of
fyfiem which does not tax thole articles, a necefraty
confecptence of which would be to raife their price,
and this be hoped he might count upon as a favour.
able omen of their fuccefs.

Lord CASTLEREAGH agreed with the Noble
Lord, that it was moll deferable to alleviate the bur-
diens of the people, and to diminifh the taxes, but
he did not think that the Noble Lord's plan, in its
indent form, could do the one or the other. We
heard a great deal about the diminution, but were
not told rf the debt which mutt be incurred to pro-
duce that effea The Noble Lord teemed to have found
the Philofopher's Stone, and to have difcovered the
way to produce 492,000,0001. from 2,000,0001. but
he apprehended that the refult would prove the No-
ble Lord had fpent a great deal, and gained nothing.
All this to be Pure was very pretty, and looked as
well on paper, he granted, as any of the financial
fytlems propofed in France, toward the diffolution
of the monarchy. He would do the Noble Lord alfo
the juaice to aate, that his ingenuity and eloquence
had dreired up his plan with all the art and plaufibi-
lity of Neckar ; he apprehended, however, that the
experiment now under confideration would fail as
completely as that of the French Financier had,
but he hoped not with a fimilar effed. What
could the enemy, what could Europe, or what
could this country think of our refmrces, on view-
ing the Noble Lord's fyflem ? (A c!amour of licar,
Hear ; from the Minyerial fide of the Hozyi). What,
he would afle, could be thought by any one capable
of analyfing the fyftem, but that the nation would
foon become bankrupt ? He did not mean to fay that
this was or could be the real fituation of affairs. No.
He wilhed to defend the Noble Lord againtt himfeif,
and the outline of his fyflem. He was aware that
nothing could be more ruinous than a plan which
entailed compound intereft on the country. He dif-
approved of, and deprecated fuch a mode of conduc-
ting our finances. We poffelied ample means, if they
were but brought into affirm. What opinion mull
the country now entertain of this fyliem, if the Noble
Lord's flatement laft year was true, when he fpoke
with defpondency and difmay of our refources, which
he had defcribed as exhautled by his predeceffors in
office ? He congratulated the Noble Lord, however,
on his difcovery, that our means and refources were
abundant, and would be in a fhort time flourifhing.
The Noble Lord here entered into calculations with
an intention to {hew that the Noble Lord's (H.
Petty)- plan would be impradicable from the expira-
tion of the three fira years, and inferred, that infiead
of adopting it, the Houfe thould prefer either Mr.
Pitt's tricot or his own modification.
Mr. GILES nbferved, that the Noble Lord (Caf-
tlereagh) had drawn inferences from falfe premifes ;
for the Noble Lord had taken the interefk of one year
only, according to his own fyftem, into calculation ;
and the consequence was, that inftead of having the
iutcrefi at the end of twenty years, at 14.000,0001.
according to the Noble Lord's view of it, it mull
neceifitily accumulate to the enormous amount of
44,000,00c1. (Near! Hear! from the Mini/7cm)—
Tire Noble Lord would foon find that he had reafon•
ed from erroneous data; for infiead of calculating
on the intereft of each year during the twenty, he
had only taken the interett of one, which he kept in
view throughout, and hence smite the Noble Lord's
great miflake, which pervaded the whole of his Ilate-
ment. He'begged the Noble Lord's attention to this
mater;al fad, for he muff fee on conflict-460n, that
according to his own data, the him ett would amount

to 144,0ct0,0c01. innead of t4,006,00q1. He eon.
tended that the country would not be able to pay
!itch an enormous firm at the end of twenty years,
on the fcale of the Nible Lord's expenditure.
Lord CASTLEREAGH refeired the Hon
Member to the'cu!uirms F.S.C. to Chew that his
calculation was c irreft.

Mr. GILES acknowledged that the Noble Lord's
obfervatiors, and clan/lion from parts of the plan
were correel, but he (lilt contepded, by a reference to
column. L. of the calculation.; of the whole, that the
Noble Lord w...s in error refpeeling the mode in which
he calcul.tted the intereft. He felt it his duty, there-
fore, to approve of his Noble Friend's (Lord H.
Petty) plan, the intereft of which, at the end of
twenty years, would add only twenty eight millions
to the public debt
Mr. DAVIES GIDDY entered into a very elabo-
rate arithmetical detail,the refult of which determined
him to approve of the Noble Lord's (H. Petty)
fyf-
tem. He was confident that it would by its operation
extioguifh, in procefs of time, the National Debt.
The Refilutions were then read one by one, and
agreed to ; after which, the Houfe being refnmed, the
Report was ordered to be received on Wednefday
neat.—The Houfe adjourned at twelve o'clock.

FO2EIGN INTEIIIGENC'E.

BAMBERG, JANUARY 2

Our Journal of this day contains the following
account of the progrefs of hoflilities in Poland :
" rront the Head Quarter, of Marfhal DAvourr, at
Golymin, December 28.

44 The third corps of the army has had a very
dangerous pofition for thefe ten days pall ; k was
potted upon a peninfula upon the right bank of the
Bug, oppnfite Okunin, and upon an ifland at the con.
fiuence of the Urka and the Bug. General Milhaud,
with two regiments of czvalry, advanced towards
Potofchnkow, a village which had been burnt by the
Ruffians, after they had occupied it, to reconnoitre
the works, and obferve the motions of the French.
The danger of this pofiticn was increafed, fince, at
firft, we had only a few boats by which the troops of
the third corps of the army could be tranfported by
degrees over the Bug. In the courfe of the Ertl eight
days not more than 4000 infantry had pertd, and
they maintained this poll in fight of the whole Ruffian
army. At length a bridge of boats was formed, over
which the whole of the third corps paired with their
artillery, to the tight bank of the Bug.
" The fifth corps, underMarfhal Lannes, had paired
the Viflula at Warfaw, and followed the third corps
as the fecond line of the army. After the troops had
taken a convenient fituation, the operations com-
menced.

Early on the 23d December the Emperor joined
the third corps. The Ruffians were deeply intrenched
on the right bank of the Urka. The Commander in
Chief, Kamenfkoy, Generals Benningfen, Tolftoy,
Dolgorucki, Buzhowden, &c. were at the advanced
potts. Every thing remained quiet for a while ;at
length, at three o'clock in the afternoon, Marital
Davouft began the attack upon the Ruffian entrench-
ments. A bridge was thrown over the Urka, near
the place where it falls into the Bug, which general
Morand pa (fed immediately with his troops, in order
to threaten the left wing of the Ruffians. The third
divifion, under General- Gauthier, who occupied the
place of General Gudin, had orders to attack the tete
de pont at Pomerckow ; Captain Penn, Adjutant to
I General Davotta, croffed the Urka in a bask, with
5o intrepid foldiers, and paired the Ruffian centinels.
Thefe so men favoured the gradual pafrage firft of a
battalion, and lailly of a whole regiment ; two hours
had fcarce elapfed when theßuflians were driven from
ail their entrenchments. They notwitliftanding return-
ed with frefh vigour with the vie v of recovering their
pofitions. Both fides fought with great ohainacy ;
however by one o'clock on the 24th the auffians were
repulfed with Inch a confiderable lots, that not the
ileaft hopes remained of their fuccef•, and they re-
I treated to Czarnovow, after having deltroyed the
'bridge at Pormachow. Here they tool: another ad-
vantageous pofition upon the plains of Czarnovow,
and in .hat place itfelf, but they were again driven
out. They notwithffanding advanced three times
fucceffively ; but were at length compelled to leave
the field of battle with the lots of a great quantity
of ammunition, and feveral pieces of cannon.—
There was not a houfe in Czarnovow which had ful-
-1 fered. The Emperor remained upon guard all night,
before the bridge which had been thrown over the
lUrka. The enemy now turned his attention to Na-
fielfk, where various other bloody affairs took place.
'l'he cannon left at Czarnovow, and feveral other
pieces that have fallen into our hands within the fall
fortnight, were cafi this year.
4, On the 24th, the cavalry were engaged the whole
day in the neighbourhood of Nafiellk ; towards the
evening, General Friant's divifion came to their Ail-
lance, and compelled the enemy to retreat, and leave
feveral pieces of cannon, and a number of dead, be-
hind them.

.‘ On the 26th, an attack was made under Prince
Joachim upon the whale of the enemy's line. The
feventh corps, under Martha' Augereau, formed the
left wing ; the third corps, under M4rfhal Davoufl,
formed the centre; while that of 111allhal Lannes
was pofted) ta the right. The battle was very brifk
with both wings. Towards the I,:ft it began at Czar.
novow, from whence the enemy, who fought with
great obflinacy, were driven back to Golymin.—
Nlarfhal Lannes made feveral attacks upon the right.
Sometimes we 1011, and Ibmetimes we gained ground.
We fought till midnight. The refults of all thete
affairs are too pieces of cannon, ammunition of all
forts, and upwards of sOOO killed, whom the Ruffians
left behind them.

,4 The Emperor came yeaerday with his guard to
Golymiu. Marthals Divot'lt and Augereau are
there likewile. The Emperor and his retinue occupy
the bottle belonging to the Lord of the Mannr, which
does not contain more than three wretched apart-
ments ; and, betides this inconvenience, had before
been plundered by the !lonians. It was full of the
wounded they had left behind them. A Ruffian
Colonel died therejull before the Emperor's arrival:
The two Marthals are quartered in two huts in the
village, where themfelves and their whole Ralf peep
upon Ilraw. The kitchen is the only habitable place
in thefe Polifh palaces ! For wit of bread w e Pee
obliged t., hake cakes, and in broaJ day it is necelfary
to bave a light."