Star.
London, England, 1822-02-27 00:00:00

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compered with the Tear reeeditsg. The is.
turing districts were in a most prosperous state
though the iron trade was snotewhar depressed,
branches were flourishing; Perticulirly the
trade, to which a great stimulus had lately beeri
Having said this much in reference to facts
which he thought it necessary to say a few
the fir t instance, he now came to the great question
of the agricultural interest ; and he wished it to be
distinctly understood, that he was by no means insen-
sible to the depression it had experienced. But the
main point for their Lordships to consider, and one
which he wished them to eiamine, was whether there
was the slightest foundation for the statement.th at
taxation was the cause of all the existing distress?—
He would state it to their Lordships, as a material
fact bearing on the question, that a similar pressure
was found to bear heavily on the people of all other
countries in' Europe. He did not offer this as an ar-
gument of consolation, but •as one intimately con•
nected. with the merits of the case; for though it
might be some alleviation of the evil to discover that
the same superabundance which inevitably produced
distress here, produced it alsp in all other countries,
k would be an aggravation of it if it was found that
England was the only country that suffered. The
Noble Earl here referred to the evidence of Mr. Ja-
cobs, as given before the Agricultural Committee last
year, in order to shew that the agriculturists of the
North of Europe, and of Holland and France, expe-
rienced similar distress to those in England. This
testimony, the Noble Earl observed, ought to have
great weight with their Lordships, coming as it did
from a man of considerable experience, and who had
visited foreign countries for the sole purpose of ob-
taining the most correct inforMation as to the facts.
That information he supplied to the 'other House of
Parliament, in the course of the last Session, through
the medium of their Committee ; but since that period
other equally important facts had been adduced.—
Here his Lordship adverted to the Address of the
Preach Chamber of Deputies to the King, on the 28th
of November last, complaining of the increasing dis-'
tress of the agriculturists, particularly in the Depart-
ments of the North, West, and South. He (the Earl
of Liverpool) did not instance this latter case to spew
what remedy the French Chamber of Deputies might
think most effectual, but in order to prove that dis-
tress was not confined to England alone, but that it
existed with equal pressure in other countries. The
answer of the King of France chewed the real source
of the evil. " Nothing," said his Majesty, " can cor-
rect an abundant harvest ; all other countries are
suffering from the same cause." But he (the Earl of
Liverpool) would further state, that the case was the
same ail over Germany. In Hanover wheat was sold
at 3s. 6d. a bushel ; rye and barley were equally low
priced, as was also butchers' meat of every descrip-
tion. The general complaint on the Continent was,
that prices were now little more than half what could
be considered fair prices. He was well aware it might
be argued that this depression probably arose from
taxation in some of those countries. But what would
be said with respect to one particular country, Swit-
zerland, which had no public debt, and scarcely any
standing arm) ? Yet that country laboured under
more severe and oppressive distress than any other in
Europe. He had recently seen a letter from Switzer-
land, which spoke on the subject in these terms:—
" We are suffering from low prices and an abundant
harvest ; ae have no money, and the farmers find it
imposAbte to pay their debts." Thus was the fact
evablislied that superabundance led to pressure, not
only in England, but in every country, both in the
north and in the south. The evil wis general—but
whether arising in every country from the same cause
it was not for him on the pre,,ent occasion to inquire.
In taking a view of the existing distress, he found
that an immediate remedy was altogether beyond
oar reach. He now proposed to go at once to that
part of the subject which had either been never al-
luded to or only in a very slight degree. Before a
recent period, the question of taxation was never
thought of as being in any way connected with agri-
cultural distress, and still less was it assigned as a
cause of that distress, till certain persons were found
who industriously propagated such a doctrine. It
was universally admitted by all parties, that the
agricultural interest was in a most prosperous state
during several of the latter years of the war ; and
was it not known that since the close of the war
the taxes had been diminished one-fourth ?
In the year 1815 taxes to the amount of 18,700,0001.
were at once taken off. It was true that, afterwards,
a tax of little store than 3,000,0001. was imposed;
but every succeeding year gradual reductions had
been effected ; and the amount of the whole, since
the termination of the war, could not be taken at
less than 17,000,0001. He admitted that proportion-
ate reductions had not been made in the indirect
taxes ; but the pressure of these was not *to be com-
pared with the direct taxes, 17,000,0001. of which
were at once abolished, to the great advantage of the
consumer, causing a reduction of 25 per cent. on the
whole taxation of the country. But then it was
argued that money had fallen in value infinitely be-
low any advantage that was derived from the reduc-
tions that had been effected. Now this brought him
at once to the question of the currency, and he con-
tended that when the circulation was most depreci-
ated, the reductions were quite equal to compensate
for the amount of loss. At the time the Bank Com-
mittee were sitting the depreciation could not be
taken at more than 5 per cent. .During two or three
years of the war, when it was at the highest, it did
not rise above 25 per cent. but even then, the dimi-
nution of taxes being also 25 per cent. no argument
about the effects of a depreciated currency could be
urged upon any fair or rational principle. The Noble
Earl now proceeded to enter into statements, in order
to shew that the wealth of the country had increased
in a much greater proportion than its taxes. Taxation
was only an evil so far as it affected the public pro-
sperity; and he would ask, whether our prosperity
4 increased or not ? He desired their Lordships
a view of the country, such as it was previou's
war with France, and compare it with the ek-
es that existed at this time. This compari-
_ most clearly appear from the documents
were then upon the table, and which would
great portion of national' wealth that had
tied since the period preceding the late war,
the whole appearance of the country had
iged in a tnomeat greatly to its advantage.
take the averages of the three years pre.

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tireVedtess d
Steady so ; and this prosperitt 'took place, indepen-
dent of various 'improvements to other branches con-
nected with them. With regard to. the state of agri-
culture, it muse be recollected that
.great numbers
of Inclosure Bills bad been passed
d since 1790, and
that immense tracks of land been inclosed and
put into a state of cultivation, which before were en-
tirely waste, or were* best used as sheep-walks.—
This constituted a new source of public and indivi-
dual wealth. But he wished their Lordships to con-
sider the state of the old lands, which had been greatly
improved, and that rents had been considerably ad-
vanced, notwithstanding the great reductions which
they lately.experienced--qeductions which he wished
had taken place long before. Another subject worthy
of consideration, was the increase of the population,
on which he thought there could be no difference of
opinion ; and the effect of this increase would be
evi-
dent from a view of the number of consumers of ex-
ciseable articles. He should not now advert to an
increased consumption of corn, because it would be
difficult to draw any conclusion from that circum-
stance, and still more difficult to draw a correct one.
Much, indeed, was owing to the altered habits of
people, no matter whether for the better or the worse.
Bat with respect to the increased consumption of all
articles of taxation, he had obtained as accurate ac-
Counts as it was possible to procure. On the article
of tea, the tax had increased since the year 1789
from 18 to 100 per cent. and, since that time, the
consumption of the same article had increased from
sixteen millions to twinty-two millions of pounds—
an increase which was .proportionate to the increase
of population, notwithstanding the increased revenue
arising from additional taxes on that article. With
regard to the article of candles, there must be a still
less difference of opinion. In the years 1787, 1788,
land 1789, the average annual. consumption of can-
dles was four millions of pounds; and in the years
1819, 1820, and 1821, there v, as an average increase
of more than one-third, being mpre in proportion than
the increase of the population. The next article of
consumption to which he would advert was soap.—
For the years 1787, 1738, and 1789, the average con-
sumption of soap was 292,000 cwt. The duty had since
increased ; and yet for the yearilBl9, 1820, and 1821,
the average annual consumption was 643,963 cwt.
an increase of one-third more thin could be expected
from the increase of the population. On the article
of leather the taxation had increased, but its con-
sumption had nearly kept pace with the increase of
population—the increased average in the latter pe-
riod being the difference between 32 millions and 42
millions cwt. It would be difficult to make any esti-
mate respecting the consumption of salt; but he could
confidently state, that it had experienced an increase
of ten per cent per annum. The consumption of
bricks had increased from 600,0001. to considerably
more than a million—being an increase of upwards
of one-third upon the averages, allowing for the in-
crease of population. After making these statements,
he sr ould now ask, what was the actual state of the
taxation compared with the increased wealth of the
country ? He asked this question, not with any re-
ference to the state of the currency, but the state of
the nation, such as it was before the French war, and
such as it was at present. He would, therefore, desire
any man to put this question to himself in his closet ;
after such a detail as he had now made, what relief
could be expected from a practical lessening of the
taxation? He would assume, that no such thing as
a violation of public faith could be contemplated by
any man, because such a measure would lead to the
ruin of one great branch of consumers, and could
not afford any practical relief to the cultivators of
land. What the farmers wanted was a market for
their produce, and it was not in the power of Parlia-
ment to find one for them. He was aware, that on
this occasion it would be observed that Government
had created a market for the farmers, and afterwards
took it from them. It was true, that during the
war an expenditure had been created, which ex-
penditure, if continued, would be fatal to the in-
terests of the country ; and that expenditure bad
caused an immense market for the produce of the
farmers. But a considerable part of it consisted
of the very large demand of the Government for the
farmers' prpduce—a demand which had increased
to an enormous extent in consequence of the war.—
During the last years of the war the demand of Go.
vernment for flour alone was two millions annually;
and now, on an annual average, it was only 600,000.
This reduction was caused by al-eduction of the pub-
lic expenditure; and therefore the evil complained. of
would be aggravated rather than lessened by an arti-
ficial market. This, then, was our situation at pre-
sent. Here were two great classes of the commu-
nity—those who held the land and those who have a
mortgage upon it—and to injure the latter would be
to injure a very great body of coasumers. All agreed
that faith should be kept with the public creditors,
and that the public establishments should be reduced
as much as possible, consistently with the safety of
the State, and with the nature of a Monarchical
Constitution. It was an after-question how far this
reduction might be carried ; and that might best be
answered by an examination into circumstances.—
But the chief question was, whether we should remit
in taxation the excess of revenue over the expendi-
ture, or apply it in part to the reduction of the debt.
On this question he would state his opinion as to the
profit and loss of the two courses; and what would be
the advantage to any particular interest, arising from
this partial reduction of taxation. The sum of five
millions was the excess in question ; and, be asked,
what proportion did that bear to the annual income
of the country? The revenue was from fifty to
eighty millions, and a reduction of five millions
would bear a proportion of about one-tenth of the
revenue. He was sure that such a reduction would
not relieve the agricultural interest, and he doubted
whether it would be seriously felt by the Public at
large. What profit, then, could arise from the re-
mission of five millions of taxes? He would next
consider the loss of such a measure. It would con-
sist in the giving up of the Sinking Fund, which,
when kept within reasonable bounds, must ever be
considered as the main prop of our national credit.

why regarded
rusts of the country, coiddliesitate a MOM as to
their choice?. He would not advert.ttlipes=ti
Itself of the Sinking fund. This waa ant
althiarsh, he. rad. proposed
the measure of Mr., Pitt,
'it for the consideration of Pint- When Mr.l
Pitt first introduced it; it was not objected to by those
who were his political opponents. Mr. Fox, ru per.
ticular, not only approved of the measure, but be
also offered several very useful Suggestion', which
were adopted, and assisted in the formation of the
Bill.; and, even after the death of these two great
men, the Sinking Fund was warmly approved of
by Mr. Sheridan. There certainly was a work of
considerable merit written by a Dr. Hamilton, in
which doubts were thrown out respecting the policy
of that measure. This work was published abdut
the year 1803 or 1804. But it appeared to him that
Dr. Hamilton's chief objection was directed to the
Fund in time of war; because he contended that
what was borrowed from that Fund during the war,
was lost to the country. Yet, notwithstanding what
Dr. Hamilton and others had urged against the
Fund, he (Lord. Liverpool) was persuaded that the ad.
vantage of a Sinking Fund in time of war more than
counterbalanced any disadvantage resulting from it.
The Fund produced a moral effect, independent of
the consideration of profit and loss. During the last
war the country was fighting for its very existence;
and he asked, what would our situation have been,
in such a war, without a Sinking Fund, which kept
up the public credit? And suppose another war
were to break out, must we not be in a much worse
situation if such a Fund did not exist? It must not
be forgotten that every other country in the world
had a Sinking Fund; he meant every country that
bad a National Debt. It existed in France and Ame-
rica. The former had a Sinking Fund much greater
in proportion to its Debt than ours; and the Sinking
Fund the latter country promised the extinction cif
her Debt in twenty years. Should we then proclaim
to the world, that with a Debt far greater than that
of any other country, we should take no measures to
lessen it? He trusted, therefore, for the sake of our
public interest, and for the sake of posterity, we
should maintain our Sinking Fund. He should nest
come to the question, whether anything could now:
be done for the relief of the Agricultural Interests.?ii
It was clearly his opinion that the distress of the far-
mers could not be attributed to excessive taxation ;
and he was sure that no reduction of taxes which it
was in the power of Parliament to make could give
them relief.. The cause of their distress was the
&eat excitement that took place during the war, and
consequently an over-production of the produce of
the soil, together with the high prices, n frith forced
large tracks of poor land into a state of cultivation.
An over-Production must always have the same ef-
fect upon agriculture as upon other branches of in-
dustry. The over-production was also increased by
large imports from Ireland, which, during the last
three years, were much greater than all the imports
from all other parts of the world during the same
pe. iod. These were facts which could not be got
rid of by any legislative enactment; but he wished
to ask if other interests had not been benefited by this
over-production? It was certainly the duty of Par-
liament to hold an even balance between all the in-
terests of the community ; and so far as regarded the
Agricultural Interests, the inclination of his mind
would be to turn the scale in its favour, if it were no
more than the weight of a feather, provided such a
preference were likely to afford relief. But it must
not be forgotten that many other classes derived
great advantage at this time from the very distresses
of the farmers, on account of the cheapness it pro-
ducel 'lle subject could not be regulated by law,
and the evil must be left to cure itself. It was a mis-
take to say that the distress benefited nobody; for
he well knew at this very time it afforded a benefit
to a great mass of the community. It benefited the
Manufacturing Interest, and it benefited the country
in regard to Poor-rates. He should now shew what
was the plan which it was the object of the Govern-
ment to adopt for general relief. He should first al.
lude to the intended reduction of expenditure. This
would be much greater than what he was about to
propose, were it not for the deficiency of Revenue in
Ireland. This clear surplus of nearly a million and a
half shewed that Government were not indisposed •
accommodate the expenditure of the country, as far
as possible, to the circumstances of the times. The
greatest minimum had been taken in every depart-
ment ; and so strong was their desire to retrench,
that they were willing to submit even to inconve-
nience, in order to be enabled to afford some relaxa-
tion of the public burdens. In the progress of the
inquiry as to the means by which relief could be
given, the expediency of reducing all Public Este.
blishments was what struck Ministers as primarily
important. The necessity of preserving inviolate the
means of one day discharging the National Debt next
forced itself upon them, and, with that view, of sup-
porting the Sinking Fund, which was voted, in 1819,
to the amount of at least five millions. How far Go-
vernment had been successful in that respect, their
Lordships would see by the papers upon the table.
Ministers then, wishing to afford some relief to the
country in the reduction of taxation, turned their at-
tention to how far that principle could be carried,
without trenching upon those grounds which it was
material to keep untouched. It occurred to them
that a saving might be made by lowering the into.
rest of the National Debt, and that a reduction of
taxes to that amount might be made. Without enter-
ing into any explanation as to the way in which this
plan was carried into effect, he would content him,
self with saying that the views of Ministers in this
respect had been completely fulfilled, and that they
were now in a situation to diminish the taxes, xo the
same extent as they had gained by lowering the in.
terest on the Debt. Having thus stated the steps aed
tually taken, and the present results which followed
from them, he would call the attention of the Home
to the more extensively beneficial effects which thus
measures might. be .expected to produce in futur.'
There were also other means which should no!
*overlooked, and the beneficial operation of which

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dead
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and,
diax
ithorrer would take the expenditure of the country
now, and compare it with what it bad. been before
ibe war, would ilnd that the dire:ear, was entirelY
swallowed np in Half pay and Allbwances to Of.
s.- Perhaps the House would scarcely believe
that the amount of the Half pay at this time was
very near five millions annually—Wear, heao_ This
was a charge nearly as large as either the Army csi
.Navy taken separately. But it was upon this head
of expenditure that the greatest and most certain re:
ductions might be expected. A reduction there cer-
tainly would be in it, for as it was in the nature of ais
annuity, though slow in progress, the effect um, sure,
Upon another topic he would make an observatiorr.
When, in 1819, Parliament declared that they would
maintain a Sinking Fund of five millions at least, he
(Lord Liverpool) then gave an opinion that this sum
should be held inviolate for the discharge of tl'e
Debt. In doing so, however, he was careful d'.l-
- what was inviolable and *hat was not
so, and he had now no hesitatinn in saying, tha
though the Sinking Fund of 5,000.0001. should he
preserved inviolate for the discharge of the Debt, yet
that it was open to Parliament, in the event of an in-
crease in Fund beyond the 5,000,000/. either to
apply that surplus to the purposes of the 5,000,000/,
or to apply it in the reduction of taxation, as the cir-
cumstances of the cotrntry might seem to demand it.
This brought him to another topic, which was not of
less interest, namely, the raising 4,000,000/. by loan
from the Bank towards the relief of the Agricul-
turists. Befdre entering in detail into the means by
which this measure was carried into effect, it was
necessary to call the attention of the H, 'use hack to
the circumstances in which the country was placed
in 1813. This retrospect would sheW that the pie.
sent measure was but the reducing to practice plans
which were then conceived. V. hen in 1819 the ilues-
tion of the Sinking Fund was discussed, the c,,
tion which existed between Gnve.nment an! the
Bank became in some tneasure a principal silb;,,ct
for consideration. The Bank claimed a debt .'ate to

them from Government, by which they complained
that they were much embarrassed, and as the ex-
I istence of a debt was admitted, it was proposvd in
Parliament' to advance to the Bank, in dischare of
that debt, a sum not exceeding five or 6,000 000/.
Subsequently, however, when the Bullion Committee
were sitting, the Bank made their demand iii form,
and it then appeared that they had increased their
'claims to 10,000,0001. A Noble Nlaiquis opposite
(Lansdown) could testify that when this demand
was made, he (Lord Liverpool) objected to the ex-
tent of it, feeling sensible that Goveinment' could
not have been so largely indebted to the Directors.
However, as an important measure con:erning the
currency was then in contemplation, it was thought
better to comply with the demands of the Bank, that
no impediment might be thrown in the way of re.
turning to Cash Payments. It was not indee,: to
debt of the Bank, that he attached so much import-
mice, but to the evidence whi:h was elicited be ore
the Bullion Committee whilst the question was under
consideration. One great object with the Committee
was to devise means of increasing the circalati a of
the Bank, and he wished to refer their
the minutes of evidence given before the Committee
upon that head. In the examination of the Governor
of the Bank, it would be found that he was asked,
•• If the issues of the Bank were not enough for the
circulation of the country ?—and if they were not,
whether it would not be better to increase the circu-
lation more immediately through the Bank, than by
any increase of Exchequer Bills?" He was also asked
how the Bank of England could be induced to in-
crease their issues? In reply to both of which. he
answered, that the only way was by making them
lower the interest upon their discounts. It was to
this object that Government had long directed their
attention. It was, however, a little extraordinary to
Ministers and the Public, that up to this time the
Bank had not lowered their interest ; and though
money was now below four per cent. in the market,
the Bank were still charging at the rate of five ; and
this the Bank had been charging tor a long space of
time; for in some two or three months after thel3ul-
- Committee made its Report, the Exchanges be-
came favourable to this country, so that the treasure
amassed by the Bank in imported gold should have
been very large. But it was questionable whether
the Bank served itself by holding out for this high
interest, for if a calculation was made, it would be
found that such high interest was injurious to them
and to the Public. Government had been since that
time employed in inducing the Bank to lower the
rate of interest on discounts. The object was to in-
crease the circulation of the country, and, by conse-
quence, afford relief to the agriculturists, as the circu-
lation of money would be a benefit, whether it was laid
out in securities to individuals, or in public works. To
the proposition of an increased circulation there could
be no objection, as the principle had been long recog-
nised and acted upon in issuing Exchequer Bills.—
It was with tins view that the loan of four millions
bad been borrowed at 4 per cent. from the Bank--
this sum would be applied in the manner stated in
another place. But he (Lord Liverpool) did not
mean to contend that this sum would work miracles ;
he did, hoWever, expect thy it would afford consider-
able relief, and that whether it was laid out in public
works, or advanced to parishes, it would serve as
a palliation of the present distresses of the country.
It was clear that this sum was not wanted for the
public service, or for any other purpose from which
Government could derive advantage, but solely in or•
der to increase the circulation. It was to be under-
stood, however, that the Bank made the advance
upon the condition that if the exchanges became on-
favourable, they should have the power of calling for
die repayment of each million at three months notice.
He hoped this advance of four millions would go far
in removing the difficulties. If the Bank could- be-
induced to lower the interest on their discounts, this ap-
plication toit would be unnecessary. With theseobser-
vadat, he should leave that part of the case ,and prod
'seed to another, which was also ottonside!rable im•
portance. The question to which he-would now di-

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