Star.
London, England, 1804-05-24 00:00:00

leges of the Boort. In cafe the Lords Ibould make
an amendment in a turnpike bill, to lengthen,oo
fhorten, or to create exemptions from the turnpike
duty, the Houfe would not entertain them, and, as
the prefent amendment would go direly to the fame
effea, the fame courfe Mould be adopted. He was
lure the Houfe would not receive any amendment
that would extend the exemptions a fingle day. If the
Houfe could not agree to fuch an amendment, then
the regular courfe was to rejea the bill. altogether ;
for if the amendment were to be altered by
-leaving
out the oft of June and reftoring the original date
of the 4th of May, the claufe would be impraiticable,
that day having elapfed ; and if they were to rejeft
the claufe altogether, for the perpofe of fubftituting
another to the fame died, or of extending the period
of exemption to a later date, fuppofe the sfl of July,
that would 1)e to adopt the fubtlance of the Lords
amendment, and not to adhere to the old ufage of
the Hook. He conceived that there could cull! no
doubt as to the principle. There were innumerable
precedents on the Journals of Bills rejefted on the
lame grounds. If this Bill were to be rejefted on
this ground, another might be brought in and car-
ried through the Houle with all poffible (peed. It
was certain, that there were many parts of the Bill
which a confiderable minority in that Houfe had ob.
lofted to, when in its progrefs through the Houfe.—
What was the opinion of that refpeetable minority,
majority, and un-
rotgeaer7 itmhtimaced..
Wit bo
again difcuffed. 'Though be was not very friendly
to the Bill, this was not his motive fur recommend-
ing this courfe, and he mentioned it only to obviate
the objellion that he was aauated by hoftility to parts
of the Bill. But fo far from being a reafon againft
reconfidering the meaftwe, the probability that the
majority would now coincide with the fenuments of
the minority on a former occafion,appeared a (Imager
ground for reconfidering it. There might be other
modes of obviating the difficulty fuggetted by Gen-
tlemen who had turned the &Ilk& in their minds;
bat if the Houk &mid rejea the whole, the new Bill
might be pared through the Houfe, if poffible. in a
tingle they. He had a firong notion that Gentlemen
(in allufion to Mr. Pitt), had fume time ago enter.
rained fentiments not very favourable to this meagre.
At all events, be trotted the Houfe would maintain
thole privileges inviolate. which, at all times, good
co bad, they bad faithfully adhered to.
The, CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
thought there could be but one fentiment in the
Route with regard to an infrallion of its privileges
by amendments made in the other Houfe. But this
wei pot the ftage in which to confider that topic.—
Thu fix queftion in this infiance was, whether the
Houk, confiftently with its privileges, could agree
to the ossendenenta of the Lords ? and the next, what
waive it would be expedient to adopt in cafe it
fliould not agree to them? The Committee in its re-
port, and his Noble Friend (Lord Caftlereagh), had
pointed out what amendments the Houfe fhould agree
to, and what it ought not. As to that which had
been adverted to by the Honourable Gentleman ( Mr.
Fox). in his view of it. be could difcover nothing in
the amendment, to which they could not, confillently
with the privileges of the Honk, agree, and he de-
tired to nate the ground of that opinion. In all
quellions relating to money matters, the Houfe never
objeaed to any amendments deligned to carry into
as! the &maim of the Route. From the time the
took up before it reached the 101 l ftage in the
Urds, the original time for making the firil return
bad elapfed ; and as it would be, impracticable to
make the return at that data. the Lords were under
a noceffity of foldituting another date. He con.
ceived It to be paisaly competent to the Houfe to
ogres to the amendment, or to extend the term
11Ali farther, to the rft of July. But, though that was
his opinion, be difelaimed any idea of recommending
to agree to the amendment on the ground of conve-
siesce. If it &mild be thought to trench upon the
Owners of the Haute, aid that it was convenient
to adopt it in &basset. the amendment might be re-
jelled in this intimate, and the convenience provided
for by a fupplemental Bill. This appeared to him a
better mode than that of rejeaing the whole Bill, as
bad been recommended by the Hon. Gentleman, be
cook the new Bill might lead to lengthened dice of-
has; and there were certain parts of this Bill which
it was of importance to have enaaed into a law with-
out delay. This was not the Rage in which to debate
the snorter, which more properly Iliould be difetored
in the Committee. As the Hon. Gentleman had not
objeacd to the other amendments, he looked upon it
that he felt nu objeaion to them. He :bought, there-
fore, that the belt courfe would be to proceed to the
eonfideration of the amendments one by one, and as
the WO contained in it a claufe empowering the Houle
to alter or amend it during the prefent Se3ion, any
amendments to which the Houfe could not agree in
the prefent infiance, might be provided for by z fup-
plemental Bill. The Right Hon. Gentleman con-
cluded. by recommending to the Houfe to confider
whether it would not be more eligible to fubtlitute the
ft of Jolt for the ill of June ?
Mr. THOMAS GRENVILLE. raid, he did not
find hinifelf difpofed to agree to the plan of palling
a Supplementary Bill, upon the prefent occasion.
It SAS not a mere matter of convenience that the
Houle were difeuffing; the quellimm before them was,
whether that amendment was or was not of a nature
which immediat.ly and materially entrenched upon
their privileges? The elauf:: amended by the I.ords
e sled upon the Houfe for an affcrtion and indica-
t n of their efiabliased and important privileges,
which, on fimilar occalions, they had been in the
habit of recurring to; he meant the mode fo ufmi.
ally ecimmered IP, of deferring the confideration of
fuch amendments to any lime they might toliik fit ;
nit that fuch a plan had been tound in be the moil
pratticable or convenient, but be' a,:le the Howe of
Commons had found it fo to niair.t.iitt their
privilege% untouched. that they looked to their
prefers at ion, and he ti tided that they would always
be juftly tenacious of them. It wa, a niatiifetl en-
croachment, to fay that 'scrims (hall be exempt:]
from certain taxes up to the illof June, inflead of the
Atli of May only ; and the idea of pi mmlonging that
time Gill further, by fubllitutiug time sth of July,
would have a fimilar effea. and a .:oppl-fmentary
Dill would not cure the evil complAiroid or. fle could
sot help thinking, that any delay oceafione
adopting a different plan, and It:: ".ing the claufe,
-outs! nut be a matter much to Le lasso-med. He

had all along wished to have a great proportion of
the perfons eompofing Volunteer Corps trained as a
regular force,capable of offing with our regular army.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
explained.
Mr. BRAGGE laid, that as a Member of the
Committee, to whom the Bill before the Hook had
been referred, he could not help Rating the reafon
which had induced them to overlook, in their Re-
port, the claufe in queftion. The Committee had
confidered the nature of the amendment thereby
made, and they had not thought it neceiary to pro-
pole any alteration. He apprehended that the point
had not been very accurately Rated by the two Hon.
Gentlemen who had objefted to the amendment.
The queftion was not about the exemption, but about
the time of making the return. The Bill, after
pe re•
pealing the former laws, proceeds to Rate, that r-
fons entitled to the exemptions therein contained,
mall enjoy them till the Houfe had axed Come par-
ticular day on which returns were to be made by
Commanding Officers. The tuft of May becoming
itnpeafticable. the Houfe muff of neceffity have
adopted another day; and the next day mentioned
was the firlt of Augult. when it became pollible to
make a return by the prefent Bill. Various prece.
dents might be Rated in rapport of such amendments.
In Tax Bills, when the day which the Commons had
fixed for the commencement of exaffion had abfo.
lately elapfed during the pang of fuch Bill% the
Houk of Lords have alWays mentioned another day.
which h•• been uniformly actoieiced in. The prin-
ciple, therefore, as far as privilege was concerned.
was precifely the fame in thole as in the precut in
Rance. Such were the motives which induced the
Committee above ftairs not to ,objeft to such an
amendment by the Lords, and he toped that Gni.
far views of the queftion would prevail on the
Houfe not to look upon that amendment as any en.
croachment on their privileges.
Mr. FRANCIS Paid, that the Honourable Gentle-
man who (poke left, feemed to him to carry the prin-
ciple a great deal further than what the Houk were
bound to admit. It might happen that bona J& a
tax granted by the Commons from a certain time
might be altered, as to the dates, by the Lords, fo
as to prove a furtherance of the original defign ; but
it was different in the prefent cafe. It was qnite
inconfifient with the privileges of the Houfe to craft
the furtherance of their objeas to any other Hoare
than their own.
Mr. SPEAKER took this opportunity of explain-
ing his (animate as to the prelim of the Houfe
when any amendments were made on money chides.
In support of his various obfervations, he Rated se-
veral precedents illuftrative of both fides of the ar-
gument, which he had candled from the records of
the Houle, in order that they might make what di
of them they pleated in difcuffing the prefent queftion.
Mr. WINDHAM was of opinion, that the prin-
ciple on which it was propofed to agree in this
' amendment, did not apply ftrialy, neither was' it
conformable to the general praflice of the Houfe ;
for though fome inflames were adduced in support
lot it, the inftances on the other fide were much more
numerous. He waited the Houle to confider, that
when the confiitutional principle as to breaches of
privilege was departed from, and deviations were
tolerated beeaufe they were in furtherance of the
intentions of the Houle, a wide door would be
open to inroads on the cuttody of the public purfe,
which the Hoare was called upon to defend with
jealoufy at iu own peculiar domain. The very
word of the intention of the Houle was of wide
meaning, and admitted great latitude of confirm.
lion. For example, in the prefent, inflance, when
the thing which was to be nulled could not take
place on the stk of May, the Lords took upon them
to fix it on the Soh of June, and this was called
furthering the intension of the Houle, which he
thought would have been better confulted if the
former day were left out, and the Houle left at.
liberty to fubftitute fuck other day as it might
think convenient, for the Houle may have reafon to
adopt a very different provifion. The proper mode
would, in his opinion, have been, that the Lords
fhould name no day, bit required that a new Bill
be brought in, the day named in the firlt having
elaitled. On the ground that was now advanced
in layout of this amendment, a latitude was given for
invasion of the privileges of the Houle, which
might become licentious ; for having once counte-
nanced such a praftice, the Knife aught creep .on
from relaxation to relaxation, till the privilege of
which it was once fo juilly tenacious was entirely lob.
It convenience was nut he urged ag..inft principle,
he hoped fubflance would not he urged in .eppolltina
to form. He hoped it would not be argued that
there was little difference, whether one day was
ad pied or the other. But if this fort of argument
was once countenanced, the general intention would
be always pleaded for the Amid-tomcat of the aria
principle. The lAA praftice was a flrift obferrance
of the principle, the prefervation of which was a mote
important coafideration than either the convenience
of palling 'the prefent bill, or the duty of palling a
new one.
Mt. SHERIDAN would not have rifen, except
for fomething that had fallen from the Right Hon.
Gentleman oppolite (Mr. Bathuril). which was not
confiflent with his ulual accuracy. 'flit: Right Hon.
Gentleman had laid, he could adduce cafes in which
dates had been altered in the commencement of
Tax Bills, while it had been Rated, no doubt, more
accurately from the Chair, that in direa Tax Bills,
the Houle confideteil any aniesitiment made by the
Lords as fatal, and that the lit-tife would be want-
ing to it (Of if it did not. The. Ri,,,ht Hon Gentleman
had laid, that the Commit:re had adverts.' .in this
amendment, but that it WA- not thought right to no-
tice it as a bet. act: of poi vilsge.asit was in furtherance
the intentiot (.1 the Houfe. He did not like this ar-
gument. Could the Houle of Lords, or even ;he Com-
mime, be fare that the intentioh a the Houle wasfuch
Chen the Right Hon. Gentleman con, ended. that if
the Lord. had not made this amendment, the day of
ilic fait return elapf4d, no rem:a could be
made till the day iised !or the fecund retarn in Au.
guilt. The fAR that there was no mention of fuel' 1
a iccond return in the Bill. Na -nanwasto be rat:lied
to
the exemptious in virtue • the former -Arts, furtli-r
than .he day of the din TOW n, hich was .:s the B. 11;
lad palkd the Consro,•ns the sth Slay, asit was ameml• •
ed lythc Lord* sth June,and which was pi-clored to
be
•men Jed by the Right Honourable Gentleman (the
Chancellor of 'b.; Es ch,ll- er) to S.h July ha-

they claim eo3ld be made till the fecond refl-
turn
fhonld be made on the sth May, June, or July o
lowing, as it lhould be finally fixed in the Bill. He
propofed, by way of compenfation, that the w
"fifth' ord
fhould be allowed to (land, and that the red
of this amendment be omitted; and then that a (up.
plementary Bill thould be brought in to fill up the
deficiency. By this would be (hewn what the Bill
would (late on the face of it, that the cede of this
proceeding was a jut attention to the privileges of
the Houle.
Mr. ISRAGGE BATHURST explained.
Lord CASTLEREAGH law no eaufe whatever
for rejeaing the claufe or the amendment made in it
by the Lords, as in his judgment the amendment
did in no degree whatever trench on the privileges
of that Houle, but was obvioufiy adopted by the
Lords in furtherance of that which was the undoubt-
ed intention of the Houle of Commons, namely, to
prevent any fraudulent exemptions from being
thisplea
d-
ed under the Volunteer Bill, to which, without
amendment, a wide door would have been left open
until the aft of Auguß next. The Houle would at
all times have the right and the opportunity of vin-
dicating and alerting its privileges, without untie.
celerity at this moment fazing the opportunity of a
weak and trivial quellion, and thereby materially to
embarrafs the public fervice.
Mr. GREY differed with the Noble Lord's opi-
nion, that the Houle of Commons would at all times
have the power of alerting and vindicating its own
privileges. In order that it might belt maintain
them, it would not be right to ettablifh a precedent
againd thole privileges, by giving way, even in the
molt trivial indance, to any authority, however
lightly arnmed by another Houle of Parliament, to
interfere with that which this Houle had ever confi-
deed and maintained to be its tole and exclufive
right. The Noble Lord had endeavoured in this
cafe to defend the amendment, by dating, it was
mate by the Lords in furtherance to the intentions
lof this Houle. Such language and loch an erge.l
'meat be held to be molt dangerous and deeeptioue
for, if once loch a pretence was admitted, he
be glad to know in what Bill it was that the Lords
might not plead a fimilar privilege, to overturn everyl
right of that Houle, under the alumed pretence of
furthering its intentions ? They might thus amend
every Money BM fent up by this Houle, and over-
turn every privilege of the pude, which the Houle
had hitherto maintained with the moil scrupulous
jealoufy. He could fee no inconvenience whatever
likely to arife from the rejeition of the amendment,
and letting the chafe Rand as it originally did, the
sth of May; more efpecially as the Right Honour-
able Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) had propoTed to intro.
duce fpeedily a Ikon Supplementary Aft, in which
this, among other deltas of the Bill, might be reme-
died; and as loch a remedy was fo near,, he few no
reafon why it (tumid not be adopted.
The queßion being put, that the amendments be
read a fecund time, was agreed to.
When the Clerk came to read the claufe just now
debated,
Mr. FOX exprefed his hope. that from what had
paled. the Houle would feel the necellity of rejeaing
the amendment he had mentioned. The whole of
the cafes, fo ably dated from the Chair, were, in his
mind, decidedly in favour of the rejeaion ; and more
efpecially, the cafe of the Militia Bill, in the year
t 757, when the Houle of Lords thought proper to
by amendment, the number of the militia
voted by the Commons, and alto the film of money
voted as the limply for the osigins) number. The
Houle of Commons, in that cafe, did not as merely
by rejeaing the amendment made by the Lords, but
they maintained their own dignity, and vindicated
their privileges with becoming (pint. by el:jetting the
Bill altogether, and then introducing a new Bill.
But, as had been fairly and ably aresed by his. Hon.
Friend near him (Mr. Grey,) the molt dangerous of
all arguments upon which a jullification could be
attempted for fuch an amendment, on the part of
the Lords, was that urged by the Noble Lord (Cal-
tlereagh). that it was done in furtherance of the in•
tendons of this Houle. For once only admit that,
and the bufinefs of exclufive coatroul on the public
purfe would be at an end, and the privilege of taxa-
tion completely tranfpofcd to the Houle of Lords,
who would they be perfealy at liberty to make what
alterations they plcaled in the date of commencing,
or the period of terminating a tax. Gentlemen had
quoted precedents, to thew that fimilar things had
been done ; but thole precedents were of very mo-
dern date, all within the tan nine or ten years. But
why not as by ancient precedents in theft times,
when the Houle had thewn a molt fcrupulnus and
dignified jcalnufy and vigilance towards its privileges?
In the courte of this debate, a Right Honourable
Gentleman. an experienced Member of Parliament,
and one who had himfelf fur a confiderable time pre-
tided in the Chair of the Committees of Wily, and
Means in that Houle. had aliened, as a Precedent.
that the Lords Banally had altered the date of ems-
ment in a Tax Bill, and that the amendment
lia-Pheen adopted by this Hoare. without any ob.
;anon. If there was any Inch precedent that could
by p.-Eibility have ere-tired the vigilance of this
Houle, he 'tithed it now to be read, as the Houle
:fluid not be taught lo,reneft ton ftrongly upon a
circumflance fo truly, reproachful. to a negligence
and inadvertency of which it ought to be fo much
ashamed. But if fuch precedents we-i! once admitted
to have any authoiity. this Houk might as well
give up the bufinefs of taxation at *see, and aban-
don its claims of pi ivilege as idle matter of form,
and take its remedy in a mere rejeCtion of amend-
mcnts in Money Bills, as well as in all poetic cafes
in which it has the fame power of difagveemene from
the amendments of the Lords.
Mr. PFI'T felt it onnecelary again to go over the
ground he bad already argued. lie mutt be widely
millinderftood by say Gentleman who fuppofed him
to argue generally that a view of acing in further•
ante to the willies of that Houk would, in all cafes.
'pally the alterations made by the other Houle of
Pailiament in Dias tent up by this Houle. Money
Bills as well as others. He ufed the argument fpe-
ciallv, and in relation only to the precise cafe bet-. tre
the and cafes of a (miler kind, and by r.i
means in relation to Money Bills, GT any othrr
in an amendment could be even for a moment fop-
poled to cnmpromtfe a tittle of the privilege. of this
Honk. Brit the principle did not hold faflidioully
to every pollible alteration thpt might be made even
in a Money Bill, but applied only to fuch cafes

thole where the obvious intentions of the Houle
Commons were contravened. But conceiving the
amendment in the prefent cafe to have been made
Niel? with the intention of furthering the objeas of
this Houfe, and not cf contravening f its ob-
jeas or privileges, he felt no necetlity whatever or
rejelling the amendment, to far as leaving out the
words r, sth of May," with a view, however, to •
amend the date, adopted by the Lords, to the IR of
July, which he moved, and which was agreed to.
Mr. WHITBREAD rofe, and in allufion to cer-
tain claufes in the Bill refpeaing. Mallets and Ser-
vants, inferted originally at his maance, bat omit.
ted by the Lords, exprefed a with that they never
had been introduced. He wilted. however, to know
if it was the intention of his Majefty's Knitters to
revive any claufe upon this &Neel, becaufe if nct,
he &odd feel it his duty to make a fpecifie motion,
for enquiry in that Houle, refptaing the condo& of
the Lord Advocate of Scotland, which, if he were
correaly informed, had been extremely opptelkve,
unjue, and illegal.
Mr. PITT requeßed the Hon. Member to Rate
die circumftences to which he alluded.
Mr. WHITBREAD Laid, that he had a letter in
his pocket from the Shire of Banff, in Scotland,
Rating, that a refpettable man there, named Mor-
rifon, had a fervent, who, without his permitfion. or
at all cenfulting him, had entered into a Corps of
Volunteers. Mr. Morrifon bad in confeqnence dit-
charged the man from his fervice., The man applied
to the Lord Advocate to know what legal rcdrefs he
intd-nattill his matter and .though the Lord Ad-
vocate gave it as his rawer. that the fervent had no
legal rerlrefs, yet he wrote to the Deputy Sheriff of
Banff, Rating that Mr. Morrifon's condua proceeded
from dilloyal and difaffeaed principles ; enjoined
him, as-far as lay in his power. to prevent the peo-
ple of Banff from holding any intercourfe with Mr.
Morrifon ; inftruaing him, that if an enemy Imola
land in that part of the country, to make Mr. Mor.
rifon a clofe prifoner, and adding, that if. in the
event of an enemy landing, any part of Mr. Morri-
ton's property &cold be dettroyed, either by the ene-
my, or the King's troops to keep it out of the toe-
' my's hand, he would.take care Mr. Morrifon &odd
' have no compenfation.- This was, he apprehended.
illegal. and. deferred the animadverfron of the Haute.
No amply was made to this Ratement.
Lord CASTLEREAGH then moved the ap-
i pointment of a Committee of Enquiry to explain to
r a Committee of the Lords. the reafons for rejeaing
certain amendments.—Adjourned.

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