Star.
London, England, 1830-12-14 00:00:00

COMMITTEE OF WAYS AND MEANi.

On the motion being made that the House resolve it►elf into a Eva,
Whitt of Ways and Means,
Mr. KENNEDY rose with a copy of a Report on which he h..d a
few remarks to make, and as they related to the Hon. Member for Edin-
burgh, be regretted that the lion. Member was not in his place. That.
Gentleman, he was informed, was bulling two situations, the salaries
of which, together, were 3,350!., but no entry of these salaries was
'in the Report, although It had be :1 moved for, end was intend. t 1
to give aNU return of all such salaries. This was a most even.: !1
error, and what could be thought of tech a return ? '1 he hon. member
eulogized the conduct of the present Ministers, for the earnest they 111,1
given of retrenchment, in submitting their own salaries to the conc.
deration of the House; but no great s .ving could possibly be expected
in that department. The departments. .uch as the two salaries th:
hon. member had just noticed, would, however, emit of immente
scope for curtailment, and retrencbmeon should be applied to all sine-
cures. The reason the hon. member had taken up the question seas to
censure the act of misleading the house by such a document as the ore
he now held in his hand.
Celt SIBTHO it l'E tl:Tiar,tl that the truth and the whole truth was
not the list to which the hen. gentleman had just alluded. The pliant
Colonel bad paid the utmost attention to it, but he could not under stand
1.. He had a question he would like his Majesty's ministers to itllswLr
tegsediag the noble lord who was to undertake the embassy to France.
The gallant colonel bad been informed that he was to be sent out upon
the same salary that the former ambassador had received. In referring
to the list of persions in the report, he was only astonished that the
people of England should be gulled so long, to let the money be torn
front them to give to those who only fatted themselves and afterwards
sought a provision for their families.
Lord PALMERSTON, in answer to questions regarding the noble
lord about to go to France as ambassador; he had to state that he was
going upon the old salary. The late ge v.rnment, previous to their re-
tirement, had revised the salaries of amhassadors, and had made teduc-
eons, and the present government Lad in the meantime, in this appoint-
ment, adopted the settle of the late government ; but as the appointment
belonged to the civil:list, and the house would have an opportunity of
coesidering it, when that question came before it for discussion, it was
far the house to consider, when it was fitting to bare ambassadors in
foreign countries, to have them properly supported ; but the salary was
another question.
Mr. LONG WELLESLEY thought that the diplomatic service
was not overpaid ; and on the list there were none had received pen.
lions but those who had rendered long and valuable services to the
country.
Colonel SIBTHORPR dissented front the hon. member who had
just sat down regarding the diplomatic service, and cited the embassy to
Vienna at a salary of 14,0001. per annum. From the Ottoman tnibissy
; there were no less than five pensions, four of 2.0001. a-sear, mid one of
10001. The gallant colonel was in the net of enumerating rm.ett, bat
sat down amidst cries of order.

31. ATT WOOD put a question to the Chancellor of the Exd cqt.er,
(as we understood, for the hon. member spoke in a 'very h w teut,)
relating to the state of the country, and the means that minkers in.
tended to adopt.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that it sas
not the intention of his Majesty's Government to propose any alteration
in the •alue of money.
Mr. SPENCE adverted to the 'many and expensive sinecures that
existed in patent places, several of which he quoted, and if Government
did not take them into consideration and bring in a measure for their
abolition, he thought they wouid lose their popularity.

Mr. HU3IE was happy that this subject had been brought up. lie
had consulted with the Chancellor of the Exchequer and others of hie
Majesty's Ministers on the means to reduce the expenditure a
country to the means of its revenue. The errors in the return that Earl
been pointed out were only small to what might be discovered. There
was scarcely a possibility to obtain a fair return. The lion, member
stated, that he had at one time been upon a Committee, on the hatekot t -
coach return, and there were many subterfuges resorted to on that
occa-
alon. One person appeased es holding tour places, and having Gorr
salaries ; but it was ascertained he held a fifth place, which he bad
not returned, and when applied to he refused to mend the report,
because it was not customary to enter this tiith situation on the rep. :t.
The hon. member did not duubt that perhaps the absence of the hon.
menthes for Edinburgh's name from the return might be for a simile
reason and it was possible that if he were required to mike dr.: tetunt
be would refuse so to do, because such a thing had nerd been exacted
of him before. On more particular inquiry it would be found, in all
probability, that not mote than two-thirds of the real amount appeared
on the return. It ass the intention of the honourable member to mote
for a committee of inquiry into the pension list, &c. of all above
1,0001. a year, in which way about two millions of the revenue were
expended; but he could tell the Chancellor of the Exchequer, or any
man, that to come at the truth they must have a committee em-
powered to institute a strict inquiry, and to have an opportunity of
cross-examining rigidly every individual they thought fit. Ile was de-
sirous to ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer if he would have any
objection to such a Committee being app Anted after the recess. The
Hun. Member t.roceeded to ray, that of the patent pensions, amounting
to abour 150,0041 a year, he considered that they had all expired with
the demise of the Crown, and that the present was a very proper time
to do them all away, except those who had earned them by real services ;
but all sinecures ought to be done away entirely. He hoped the Noble
Lord would prepare a measure to this effect ; if not, he (Mr. Hume)
would give notice now that he would make a motion to that effect soon
after the holidays. The Hon. 31entber would prefer Government
having their own Committee ; but one must be had for the satisfaction
of the House, and for the aatisfaction of the country.
The Chancellor of the EXCHEQUER would beg of the ho;.. house
to allow his Majesty's Government to examine into all these Mai, ters,
and when ihey had done all that they could, the House might re-con-
sider the arrangement. The Government were determined to reduce
the expenditure as much as possible. They had already abolished seve-
ral useless places, and they would abolish several more. The time that
this country was to be governed by patronage had gone past.
Mr. R. GORDON, when lie heard so much said about retz och.
tent and useless places. was surprised to see that an appointmen: lad
been made by the present government to the Chancellorship of the
Duchy of Lancester ; it might be his ignorance, but he always con-
sidered it a useless office. The bon. member was certain, from the na.
ture of the civil list,that the pensions granted on it died with the demise
of the Crown. He thought it shameful to see the list urowded rah the
names of relatives of Cabinet Ministers—whole families of them. The
pension list of England had always been refused to be produced by
the late Minister; it was only the Scotch and the Irish lists that they
would ever submit. He was desirous to know regarding the appoint.
meets in Ireland : he had elsewhere learnt what the anangements were
regarding Sir A. Hart, which the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said
would relieve the country of the expense of the retiring petsion. He
understood it to be, that 1,0001. of the retiring pension was to he de.
ducted from the yearly salary of the newly appointed Chan:elk:it. He
was well assured that the appointment would occasion great disgust in
Ireland.
Mr. 8. BATESON made similar remarks regarding the keepers of
the seals of Scotland and Ireland.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER rose to answer the
taunts that had been so freely bt stowed upon the govermntnt. With
regard to the Duchy of Lancaster it never had been considered testi nue.
Ministers could net appropriate it without the concurrence of his 31a.
jesty, and he did not consider the Keepers of the :seals useless places;
but their salaries was another thing. The potent hind Lieutenant of
Irel..nd had been sent out on the same salary as the last Lord Lir u t
3lr. SUODEN said that it w.ts absolutely necessary that 31itistres
should have places fur people abort them to assist them in the dr.•:ei of
their offices. He would not he like the hon. member fur 310d:este,
who would burden a man to the last point at the smallest salary ; and
it was necessary to have a new honorary places to assist the government,
Mr. O'CONNELL eaid,that these were not the sentiments t eon:teed
by the hon. member for Middlesex; he only objected to salaries being
paid where no work was done ; he had neve: offered to compel a min to
take any place against his mind. But these patent places were fre-
quently handed down from generation to generation of a family; tied
on the list now might be seen the third generation in inheritance, and
to pay this expenditure there were fees exacted even from the estates of
insolvents. On the Irish Pension List there was 43,0001. and not a
man on the list had ever done any service to Ireland, except the family
of Lord Romney ; nor he might say to any other country. He would
support the motion for a Committee of Inquiry.
Lord ALTHORP rose in explanation.
Mr. O'CONNELL noticed the rumoured appointments and changes
in the law department of Ireland. which, he paid, would be attended
with sedans consequences. If they had taken place, he could say that
he could almost arraign, in feet impeach, those who hail caused them to
be made. The Bar and the Beach of Ireland ought to have been eon.
suited. Nothing in all his political career had ever given him•a much
pain u to =pros himself then to the present Governnient. whom he was
so desirous to support.
Mr. ROBINSON would protest against Government keeping use.
is.. Meas. He hoped that ministers would adhere to their ',tufts.

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i

'l'

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sions. He regretted to hear that they had adopted any scale of the late
Government. It had Mecca said Om: diplomatic service was not suffi-
ciently paid; but he was of oph ion that no country was worse served in
that department in any thing that related to trade or commerce. Whete.
ever treaties of this description had been pending, this country had al.
ways been overmatched.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that in such
cures the Government at home were to blame more than the Ambas-
sador. that they bad not confined him to proper instruction. In further
explanation of the French Ambassador, he stated that it was the only
salary °lithe scale that had been reduced.
Sir J. YORKE was amazed to see the gentlemen adopting such es.
larks, who would have raised their voices and bawled about retrench-
ment if such salaries had been proposed by the late government. The
Noble lord, the leader of the house, he supposed, had told them they
were to go on by the same scale as before. Vhy, he asked, had these
unflinching economists continued the Lord I.lcutenaney of Ireland,
against the maintenance of which they had voted when on his side of
the house? Why did they continue to gowns Ireland as a province,
and to keep up the Dublin Castle job ?
Mr. H. TWISS said, that the Lord Privy Seal was not a useless
office; it was one, the abolition of which would involve &change in the
mode of managing the affairs, more extensive than any as yet contem.
plated. With respect to the vested interests, in :which, besides those
enjoying the pensions R 3 called, so many had an indirect interest, they
could not be attacked, without exciting a host of opposition, such as the
greatest reformer was not prepared to encounter.

Mr. WILKS said that the people would be satisfied only by some-
thing even more distinct and explicit than what had as yet fallen from
the Chancellor of the Exchequer. The people had not forgotten the
List of the 113 privy councillors which the First Lord of the Admi-
ralty had exposed to the house, nor the 2,000,0001. received in pen-
sions exceeding 10001. per annum.
Lord MOKPETH said that his noble relative abroad (Lord (iran.
v ille) was prepared to receive with deference any decision that house
blight think proper to come to. Economy, a most searching economy,
was, especially in times like the present, the first duty of Government,
though some time should be allowed them for the drawing up of their
plans. (Hear, hear.) While listening to the two honourable and
learned gentlemen opposite, who had dwelt on the labours of certain
public functionaries, he had almost thought the house returned
to the West India question, so much had they expatiated on hard
labour and scanty pay ; they forget that these poor labourers were
always left the option of a gratuitous emancipation. (Loud cries of
Hear, hear.)
Alderman WAITH MAN said that the country, in its present dia.
trer.nd state, could not sanction a pension of 11,0001. a year to the Am.'
bassador in France. He should like to hear what could be said in ex.
planation of the difference which existed between that sum and the one
received by the French Ambassador in this country.
Sir R. GRANT said, that the rules of government, with respect to
retrenchment, were these two.—the abolition of all useless offices; and
in those offices which were not so, the adjustment of the salary to the
labour performed. The offices palpably useless they might abolish, and
had abolished, at once ; but to adjust the scale of the pensions which
were to be continued, was a more difficult task. The consideration of
the salary of the Ambassador in France was connected with the exten.
sive one cf the Ambassadors' establishment ; if that salary was found
too great, it would be diminished. But it was too much to call upon
government to take at once into consideration the pensions to be di.
minished ; and at once to announce the decision. The decision
should be waited for with confidence; the main support of the present
government must be the fulfilment of their pledges; it must rest not
only on retrenchment, but on the friendship of the people, which would
he awarded, not in blind confidence, but only in proportion to the
services performed.
Mr. MABERLEY said, that he was for giving Government fair
time ; they should weight until the pension and the dead-weight ques-
tions came on ; and then, if they did not fulfil all their promises, he
should leave them. With respect to the salary in question, it could not
fairly be meddled with until the pensions of all the ambassadors had
been settled. The present Government was the first which had laid
down the principles of reform and economy. The Duke of Welling.
ton's administration had done a great deal, though not enough ; but it
had never laid down those principles ; though the Duke was the only
one who had had the resolution to make the statement openly, he was
-convinced that the principle of no reform was that of all his colleagues.
The present Government were to trust for support not in the aria-
tocracy, but on the people; if they were beaten in the question of
Parliamentary reform in that house they should dissolve it, and the
people would give them a triumphant majority. (Hear.)
- -

Mr. COURTENAY rose to vindicate the Wellington administra.
tion, an administration which had carried retrenchment to an unpre-
cedented extent; and that not with respect to clerks' salaries, but with
respect to patronage offices. In three years the Duke of Wellington
had not given away one single commission.
Lord BENT INCK rose merely to say, that the Ambassador of the
Citizen King,wheee pension had been alluded to, received a pension
equal to the one at present received by the English Ambassador at
Paris.

_
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, he believed that there were Ambas-
sadors here who had salaries larger than the salary received by any
English Ambassador; retrenchment was not the less required, but deli.
beration was necessary to see how far they could afford to place
English ambassadors in a situation inferior to that of the ambassadors
of other countries. With respect to the lord lieutenancy of Ireland,
his opinion was, that in framing a general system of government for
Ireland, it would not be consistent with economy to keep up that
establishment. But in the present state of Ireland, should the Go-
vernment have given to the Home Secretary, besides the administration
of England (at that time in a state of peculiar embarrassment), that of
Ireland, and have taken the chance of all the mischiefs and disorders
which might have ensued in Ireland in its present state, for the sake of
consistency, because they had once said that the establishment should
not be kept up. Was it not the better course to wait for the re-
storation of general tranquillity and confidence? He did not mean to
attack the late Government; he had already said, and he was ready
to repeat it, that that Government had been remarkable for more eco-
nomy and less corruption, than any which had preceded it. It was not
to the Duke of Wellington's Administration, but to those which had pre-
ceded it, that the damning proofs of corruption, which they had now
laid upon thetable, were to attach ; but the late administration was far
from understanding the temper of the times ; it did not understand how
far retrenchment was required, and that the voice of the people de-
manded so loudly the reform of that house, that a continued refusal
would involve the monarchy and aristocracy of this country in one com-
mon ruin.--(Heat.)
Mr. LEN N ARD said that Ministers, having been in office so short
a time, was a sufficient answer to all objections; but there was no re-
trenchment so much demanded by the people as that of the Ambassa-
dors' expenditure.
Mr. C. PELHASI said a few words.
Mr. HUSIE asked, whether the principle of economy was to be
acted Co, not only with respect to the civil appointments, but also with
respect to the appointments in the navy and army. (Hear.) In the
navy, for one efficient officer, they had eight in non-activity ; in the
army, the proportion was very great. Instead of making more promo-
tions in one year than had been the case In an equal space of time when
our fleets covered the seas, and we had 600,000 men under arms, let the
promotions cease for one year, and the Government have time to reduce
the present charges. If the Government did not take the subject up,
some one, if not himself, would press the consideration of it on the
House.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the question
whether relief from any portion of the dead weight might be afforded,
was now under the consideration of government. Though of opinion
that promotion should take place only under an absolute necessity, he
was not for stopping it entirely ; such a course would be fatal to the
navy.
Sir O. CLARKE said he wished that the present government might
be able to carry retrenchment In that respect as far as the late one had
carried it.

Mr. HOBHOUSE said, he believed the Duke of Wellington's Go.
vernment went as far in retrenchment as any government could go, under
the corrupt system ; but the duke's own declaration proved that he did
not understand the circumstances of the times, nor the sentiments of the
people. He was confident it was impossible to continue the government
on the system of corruption. lie doubted not the determination of the
present government to fulfil all their former pledges for the public
good. He had for many a year fought by their side, and he bad
a pledge, in their high character, that they would not now
in the moment of triumph abandon their principles, and for.
fcit for ever their high character. He had heard from them on the Trea-
sury Bench the language of patriotism, to which it had been a stranger.
He had heard them use language which was a sure pledge that they had
carried their former principles with them into 'office, and were well en.
titled to the confidence of their former friends and the country. He had
beard them told that the public was a great gentleman, and required, he
supposed, that his servants should be better aR than himself. Hs was
afraid, if such conduct was adopted, that the great gentleman would be-
come a poor gentleman. He was confident thatthe public required that
the salaries of Its servants should be reduced, and that they must be re-
duced : and he hoped the Government would not allow the cheers which
might be given to contrary opinions to have any effect on their conduct.
When he heard them cheered by the gentlemen below him (the Mem-
bers of the late administration) he could not but fear that they had said
some foolish thing (a laugh.) He was confident, if they could be re.
moved from office for supporting the cause of the people, no other go.
vernment cold succeed them without acting on the sane principles, or
convulsing the country (hear, bear.) He hoped that house would lay
aside all factious feelings—that they would leave faction to the House
of Lads, or any other place (hear and a laugh), and that they would
support the cause of the country.
dlr. TWISS rose and was proceeding to defend himself from some
imputations he supposed cast on himself and the late government, by
the last speaker,
Mr. HOBH OUSE assured him that be had not alluded to him. ,
The House resolved itself into the Committee.
Lord ALTHORP said he should briefly enumerate the amount of,
the estimates, and the sums voted, and mere a vote for the difference.

The estimates were—Army, 7,434,0001 t Navy, 5,594,0051; Ord-
nance, 1,095,0001; 1,950,0001. making a total of
10,673,0001; to which were to be added, interest Ott Exchequer Bills,
700,0001; and vote on account of the Civil List, 300,0001. making a
total of 17,673.0001. The War and Means to provide for this were
—surplus of former year 80.0001: received from the East India Com-
pany 60,0001; Sugar Ducks 3,000,0001; repayment of Exchequer Bills
183,0001; Consoliated Fund 12.600,0001 making a total of 15,823,0001.
and leaving a sum of 1,850,0001. to be still provided, for which he should
moveavote. The Supplies havir.gbeenproposedand voted under a former
government, he was not called on to defend then; but be would assure the
house that the future estimates should be made as low as possible; but
he was afraid the expectations of the country from retrenchment were
raised so high, that after every thing that was possible should be done,
some disappointment would be felt. He hoped, however, the house and
the country would give the Oovemment credit fora determination to
reduce all that was possible. ( Hear.) The noble lord moved, that to-
wards making good the supplies granted to his Majesty, 1,800,0001. be
paid out of the consolidated fund.
Mr. R. GORDON said, he hoped his Majesty's ministers would so
reduce the estimates of future years, that the occupation In which he
had been engaged so many years would be gone. (A laugh.) He hoped
the practice of voting estimates after the expense was incurred, would
not be continued. The expenditure commenced in January, and the
estimates were not laid on the table till February or March, and not
voted till June, as that the money was spent before It was voted. Last
year be opposed the grant of one hundred thousand pounds for Windsor
Castle; but what was the reply of the Chancellor of the Exchequer ?
why, that seventy-five thousand pounds of the money was already
expended; and, of course the tradesmen,' bills could not be left
unpaid. Be hoped that practice would be abolished, and that the house
would have an opportunity of examining the estimates, when exam'.
nation could be of use, for which purpose he would advise that the
noble lord should propose the estimates for six quarters in the en.
suing year. He had the greatest confidence In the Resent govern-
ment, and believed the noble lord to be a truly honest loan.-.{Hear,
hear.) He had heard his noble friend say, that government would
not all up any useless offices; but he thought the office of Chan-
cellor of the Duchy of Lancaster weed that description, and might be
abolished. The of of Postmaster•Oeseral, was another, and there
was a positive recommendation of a committee for its abolition. He
also thought that the sinecure Mat of President of the Council might
be abolished. He knew that his noble Mend had many difficulties to
contend with, and that his situation was not very enviable. He would
recommend to his noble Mend to consider that he was not only the mi.
nister of the crown, but the friend of the people; he united two cha-
racters heretofore thought incompatible, and he hoped that he would
depend entirely on the voice of the people for support, and have no.
thing to do with the boroughrcongers. (Loud cheering.) The noble
lord had had the opportunity of acquiring a nobler name than any of
his predecessors, and he was confident that it was an opportunity that
would not be lost. (Hear, hear.)

Col. SIBTHORPE said he had made out a list of sixty questions
to put to the noble lord respecting the abolition of useless offices. He
was confident the noble lord meant well and deserved the confidence of
the house and the country. He should wait to give time for reduotions
before he put Isis questions.

Lord ALTHORP said if the hon. gentleman had prepared a question
for every useless office, he had no doubt the number would be more than
sixty. He could only say at present that they should all be carefully
examined, and before the house met, after the recess, he expected a pro.
posal for reduction would be prepared, that would meet their approbation.
It was not the intention of Government to continue any offia for the
purpose of influence; but his hon. friend was mistaken If he thought
being a member of the Cabinet was a sinecure. Many offices
had been already abolished. The Vice Treasurer of Ireland, the Post-
Master-General of Ireland, the Lieutenant of the Ordnance, and many
subordinate offices, and the abolition of many others was contemplated.
With respect to the office of Post-Master-General, he hoped when the
house heard the arrangements they would be found satisfactory. Far
from thinking his situation enviable, he thought it alarming; but he
t the friends with whom he hail acted ought to give him credit
that would not abandon the principles of his whole life, and that they
should afford Government tine to prove their determinationi to carry
their professions into practice.

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN said, he was glad to hear the very
satisfactory declarations of the noble lord, which, he was certain, would
confirm the confidence of the people in the Government that, he could
not doubt, would make the good of the country their only object._
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUME said he should not oppose the vote, because it would
be unjust to the present Ministers, who had not prepared the estimates.
He wished to press on the noble lord, that all the estimates should be
in the house two months before the expenditure commenced. &fore the
house &Owned, government should lay an estimate on the table for the
ensuing year. If it were not done till February or March, was it not
Ilrather farcical to be examining the necessity for the expenditure after it
I had commenced ? (Hear, hear.) He would undertake to say, that
the people could have no relief till the large estimates were re.
duced. Were we to keep up a war establishment with a govern-
ment determined to preserve peace? He had heard a report that
8,000 men were to be added to the army; but be could not think that
government could be so infatuated. Twenty thousand men should
be immediately reduced ; and then we ould have as many
soldiers as in 1822, and 35,000 more than in 1792. If 20,000 men
were reduced immediately the duty on coals and candles might be taken
ar, and this should be done. The artillery and ordnance should also
be reduced, and the assessed taxes taken off These were the reductions
the people called for. If he had been in the house when the vote for
the unfortunate Palate, he must call it, was proposed, he should have
opposed it, and have called on the government to sell crown lands for
its completion. He would tell the noble lord, as his friend, that if the
Duchies of Lancaster and Cornwall were not given up, government
would be op sW in that house ; but if all possible reductions were
made, be m*ht depend on support (hear.)
81r J. YORKE said, be always thought that extremes were bad,
and the extreme proposed by the Hon. Member for Middlesex of re-
dudng the military power of the country at such a time as the present,
in his opinion qualified him for a strait-waistcoat.-.(A laugh.) —He
wished the Hon. Gentleman had staid in the northern parts of his Ma.
jest 's dominions, and not have planted himself in the richest county
of England. If there were not a few red coats in Hampshire, what
would become of his Meesty's lieges in that county ? He thought the I
army should be in for the protection of the people and not re-
duced. All reasonable reduction of expense should be made • but cer-
tainly the security of the country should not be endangered.—(Hear.)
- - - - - - - -

Lord ALTHORP said, the estimates should be laid on the table as
soon as possible. It was certainly true that government had determined
to increase the military force.--H; did not wish to govern the country
by a military force, but in the present state of the country it appeared
to be absolutely necessary, and government would take the earliest op-
portunity of reducing it again to the lowest possible scale. The Duchy
of Lancaster was always considered a separate right of the King, and
he did not think It would be a gracious return for all his Majesty had
gives, to call on him to give up the only remaining right of that nature
now possessed by the Crown.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY thought it was most mischievous to mom-
mend a reduction of the army at present, when all the powers of the
continent were increasing their armies. No saving could be made that
would meet the expectations of the without taking from the
thirty millions interest of the national debt, It was impossible to make
a reduction of the expense of establishments that could give material
relief to the people. He would be glad to see five millions of taxes
taken off the people, and laid on in another manner. (Hear.)
Sir H. VIVIAN said he was astonished at the proposal to reduce
the army at such a time as the present. He bad been in the disturbed
districts, and could say that dimess was not the sole cause of the die.
turbance. In every Rot-house inflammatory publications were seen
that had severed the links of society. Hs knew the utmost injustice
had been done to landlords and clergy ; there was a general cry in the
disturbed districts, down with the rents and tithes. The landlords only
look for their lands the rents they were offered, but the tenants had In
many instances given encouragement to those who disturbed the peace
of the country. He wished an inquiry to take place into the cause of
the disturbance. If the lower classes could be employed that would be
the effectual remedy for all disturbances. He should rather see Eng-
land covered with mil-roads from one end to the other than see the
people unemployed.
Mr. R. KDON said there was always some reason fee keeping
up the army. He really believed that if government would consider how
Mr. Peel's 11W could be mitigated, it would have more effect in putting
down the disturbance than the largest army.
Mr. ATT WOOD said, If the military expense was to be increased,
it was a gross delusion on the people to talk of retrenchment. It was in
the fifteenth year of peace the house was called on to increase the army,
to enable the governmant to make head against the people, and this
without inquiry into the cause of distress. Unless ministers adopted the
course formerly recommended respecting the currency, they had no
power to relieve the country. He knew the difieulty of the measure be
recommended, but he celled on them to look at the danger, and not be
frightened by difficulty.
Lord ALTHORP said he admitted that by retrenchment awe no
effectual relief could be given to the country, but by a system of
taxation which would allow the repeal of many of those that on
the people, and the substitution of others, great relief would he given.
He was aware that much of the distress was caused by the change of the
standard of value; but they should look at the consequences of another
alteration. It was before changed without intention ; but he would
never be the man to make an intentional depreciation, which was never
done in any country without ruin.—(Hear.)
Mr. BRISCOE said he could not conceal the bitter regret he felt at
the declaration of the noble land, that it was intended to Inman the
military force of the country, for the purpose of keeping the people in
subjection. He heard that night. that the great Superiority of the pre-
sent ministry over the late, was, that they better understood the temper
of the times, and he agreed in that opinion; but if they emended that
temper, they should not increase the expense of the =mug he the per.
pose of increasing the military force of the country. In the county he
Irepresented, great disturbance had taken place ; out It had been cow-

pletely suppressed by the constabulary force under the direction of the
magistracy. He was confident that if disturbances could not be sup-
geeitby the constabulary, it could not be done by a military force.
ed the noble lord's declaration would be received with disap-
pointment throughout the country.
Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON said he did not expect that such an
attack by an independent Member of that side of the House (31r.
Briscoe) should be made upon the present Ministers, which amounted
to this, that his Majesty's Ministers had already betrayed the trust re-
posed in them ; because one county, the one in which the Honourable
Member resided, was quiet, it did not argue that all were similarly
situated ; in proof that the opposite was the case, be need only men-
tion what no doubt was fresh in the recollection of every Honourable
Member, that it was but the other night fifty or sixty Hon. Gentlemen
claimed leave of absence for the very purpose of returning to their re-
spective cattalo, to aid the Justices of the Peace in quelling disturb-
ance and maintaining peso.—( Hear.)—The state of Ireland, he con-
tended, was much worse than England ; there soldiers had been sent,
to put the people down ; bayonets were given instead of food, and pills
of instead of the potato. He considered it no infraction of the promises
at economy and retrenchment made by Ministers to raise soldiers for the
purpose of establishing peace in the country; he also considered it ex-
ceedingly bad policy in the boo. member for Middlesex to propose the
disbanding of, and throwing upon the country 20,000 men, all well ac-
quainted with the use of are arms; he contended, since th- present
Ministers had made, without equivoque, promises of retrenchment and
economy, it was not fair to turn round upon them at present; if their
measures, after having fair play, did not answer the expectations of the
country, then was the time to put them down.—(Hear.)
Mr. DENISON had beard with much pleasure. from the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, that no alteration In the currency was contemplated.
He rejoiced that the country had got a Ministry which has begun its
career by declaring that the principle of noninterference with the
Continent should be acted upon, as well as strict retrenchment, and
that sheet-anchor of every beneficial measure—reform in that house.
If the present Minimum held to these principles, they should have hie
humble but steady support.
Mr. BRISCOE explained.
Lord PALMERSTON said, that certainly the hon. member's
speech (Mr. Briscoe's) appeared to him to be a contradiction of itself t
that hon. member says the country is quiet, and in the same breath
wishes the constabulary force to be augmented. He (Lord Palmerston)
was satisfied that the best course to be adopted was the raising a con-
stabulary fort*. Government, however, it ought to be recollected, bad
resorted to that measure already, and it had been found to be inefficient,
for it was not to be expected that individuals chosen to act as constables
would continue long to submit willingly to the inconvenience of its
duties. _ _

Mr. Alderman WAITH MAN was of opinion that the only way to
alleviate the public distress was by a reduction amts.
The motion was then agreed to.
The Chairman then reported progress, and asked leave to sit again.
The House resumed, and the report was brought up and ordered to
be received to-morrow (this day.)

azoicxcv mt.

On the report of the Regency Bill being brought up,
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL moved an amendment, to the effect
that in the event of the death of her present Majesty, and the rubes-
qnent marriage of the King, the present bill be declared void.
Mr. FERGUSON approved of the amendment.
The bill, with the amendment, was then ordered to be engrossed, and
read a third time to-morrow (this day.)