Star.
London, England, 1822-03-13 00:00:00

COLLECTION OF THE REVENUE.

Colonel DAVIES said, that in directing the atten-
tion of the House to this subject, pursuant to notice,
it was not his intention to go into the details con-
nected with it, but merely to endeavour to convince
them of the propriety of taking this branch of the
expenditure of public money more particularly under
the cognizance of Parliament. When they considered
that it involved the question of a sum of four mil-
lions, in the expenditure of which, those who ma-
naged it were accountable only to themselves, he
thought they would see that, in this season of distress,
it was their bounden duty to take the same salutary
care of it, as of the other smaller sums.. lie need not
remind the House that it was always considered that it
wasawing to the patronage attached to the disposal of
this sum that the Minister possessed the power of re-
'
gulating the votes in that House. This gave it a pe-
culiar claim to their attention. All that he intended
to trouble the House with was,' to come to certain
Resolutions which he should submit to them. One
of these was, to thew the increase which had taken


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p'ice the Asap for collection 11nCeiiie Telt. 1510,
as compared with 1820. It would be found; that in
the collection of the Customs there was an iTricrease
of 11. I 1. M. per cent—the duty on hackney-coaches,
SI. Ios. Bd. per cent.—in the Post Office, upwards of
21. per cent. and on the Hawkers and Pedlars duty,
nearly the same increase. He took' all these state.
ments from the account laid on the table of the
House. He had not gone to 1792, or 1797, but had
taken the comparison with a year when the deprecia-
tion of the currency was at its height, 1812. He
next wished to pledge the House to an opinion, chat
annual accounts of this branch of expenditure should
be laid before Parliament. He did not call for re-
trenchment, but that the four millions thus disposed
of should be subjected to the same scrutiny as the
other branches of expenditure. It would, probably;
be objected to him, that such a motion as this did
not deserve support, after the statement of the Right
Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer. But he should
contend, that that statement was a reason for sup;
porting it, as they had so frequently before heard
that all public departments were on their lowest foot.
ing. They had, however, since that been reduced
lower, and probably this expenditure was ccoally
capable of being curtailed. The charges for the
collection of the Customs in the year 1820, as com-
pared with the year 1788, shewed an increase in
the ratio of 71. per cent. • They must not allow
themselves to slumber, or nothing could be done in
the way of lessening the burthens rif the community.
The Hon. Member then stated the case of some indi-
viduals who were in the receipt of salaries for two
situations connected with the Customs, the duties of
which they could not perform. By a reference to the
accounts, they would find a Mr. Frewin, who, al-
though a Commissioner of the Customs, was also
possessed of another situation, from both of which I.e
received large salaries. Another Gentleman, a Mr.
Dean, had held for many years a situation which
gave him £l5OO per annum. If be did anything to
merit such an income, he should think he could give
much of his time to the performance of his duty as
Commissioner of the Customs. The Commissioners
of Customs were, in his opinion, unnecessary. Their
number might be reduced from nine to six, withcut
throwing any impediment in the way of the public
business. But the same principle was acte . upon
there as everywhere else. Poor wretches receiving
about half-a-crown a day, and tidewaiters, might be
reduced ; but the higher officers were never touched,
and it had not been recommended that the number
of Commissioners should be diminished. He ;hen
read a Minute from the Lords of the Treasury to t;e
Commissioners of Customs, in which their Lordships
declared that they would consider it highly improFer
in the Board to appoint any one to a situation in the
Customs, without first ascertaining that he was in all
.respects well qualified. Nothing could be better than
this regulation ; the precept was admirable. But Ilcw
had their Lordships acted on it? They had taken
seven out of nine Commissioners appointed ti'o:n
other departments, and placed them in their present
situations, though they knew nothing at all of the
Customs. The last appointment was that of an EU,-
nourable Officer, who formerly had a seat in t!i..t.
House. But he, as an Army Officer, could not be
supposed to have had much insight ilito the business
of the Customs. He noticed the unnecessary es penscs
incurred on account of the Commissioners, and r:,.-
ceeded to shew that the Superannuation List had
been so rapidly increased. that from 1810 the annual
charge on it had risen from £lO,OOO to £86,000. It
had been declared that superannuation should only
be allowed in consideration ot 'length of service, age,
and infirmity ; but he could not turn over the ac-
counts without finding that. persons had been super-
annuated, who had served but fifteen, ten, five years,
and some even who had only served three years. All
who had completed twenty years of service, were im-
mediately placed on the list; and it was remarkable,
that all those Gentlemen, immediately that they had
served twenty years, became so infirm that they must
be immediately superannuated! In defiance is the
regulations which had been framed, 2700 appoint-
ments had taken place since the year 1816. He com-
plained of the manner in which certain Patent Offices,
recommended to be immediately abolished, in 17S1,
by the Commissioners of Public Accounts, had been
kept up till 1810, and thence inferred the necessity
which existed for Parliament keeping its eye con-
stantly on what was passing in that department. In
the Solicitor'slBlB department, the law charges were
For
£38,800
:
For 1820 -
29,400

Being a reduction of - £9,400
Which reduction was stated to have been effected in
consequence of the recommendation of the Commis-
sioners. This again proved the necessity of keeping
a watchful eye on all that was passing. The Ho-
nourable Gentleman then noticed the expenses con-
nected with the erection of the Custom-house, and
maintained that Mr. Laing, the Surveyor, had been
paid twice as much as he had a right to receive, and
that 7,8101. ought to have been deducted from the
sum paid for his services. The expense of the Coast
Blockade and the Preventive Service he considered
to be uselessly incurred. Smuggling continued to a
great extent, and he would shew how it could be se-
curely carried on with advantage, in spite of all the
measures which had been adopted. Supposing a
cargo of five hundred kegs of foreign spirits to be got
together, which would cost about 2501. on the other
side of the water, the smuggler had only to give in-
formation against himself that the cargo would reach
a certain point at such a time. The reward for the
seizure of foreign spirits was 1/. Ss. the gallon. In
the five hundred kegs there might be two hundred
gallons. Half the cargo was condemned to the King,
the remainder, which in the case supposed, would
amount to 1,2001. was to be shared between the offia
cer and the informer—two-thirds going to the former,
and one-third to the latter. This would give the in-
former against himself 4001. for what had cost hint
but 2501. and thus he might gain in this way 1501.
without running any risk. At present great ntimters
were engaged in smuggling. Informations multiplied,
and the demoralization growing on the habitual
violations of the law were shocking to contemplate.
A Magistrate at Brighton had told him that a man
had laid an information against- another on oath.—
The next day he denied that he had done so, and en-
deavoured to persuade the Magistrate, against the
evidence of his senses, that he was not the man. lAr
this conduct be was committed, and being sub:e•

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quently interrogated es to his motives for acting such
a part, his reply was, that had he not done so his life
mould have been in danger. Such was the effect of the
system now acted upon. Were the duty on foreign
spirits reduced from 19s. to 12s. the temptation would
be in a great degree removed, and the revenue, far
from being injured,would be benefitted by the change.
His views on this subject were borne out by a curious
document which he held in his hand. This was a
return of the quantity of foreign spirits on which
duty was paid in 1810. The number of gallons then
imported was 2,061,000, and the duty paid, at the
rate of 15i. per gallon, amounted to 1,359,000/. The
next year the duty was raised to 19s. It did not
come into full operation till 1812, when the quantity
imported was 199,000 gallons, one-tenth of the
former amount ; and the duty, which in 1810 pro.
duced 1,539,0001. was reduced to 177,0(X)1. Ile com-
plained of the amount of the law charges, and of the
tlelav in making a return to his motion of February 8.
A large book had lately been laid on the table, but
this was no answer to his motion, as it contained but
the Quarterly Returns. The Solicitor to the Customs
seemed unwilling to give an account of his emolu-
ments. He had heard them variously stated at
40,000/. 30,0001. and 20,0004 per annum. He cared
not which sum might be the true one, but if that
amount was but 10,0001. he was prepared to contend
that this was too much, and to insist that this was
no: the way in which that officer should be paid. He
then noticed the heavy expenses attending Excise pro-
secutions, pointed out various reductions which ought
to be carried into effect, and concluded by moving Re-
solutions declar log that the sum of 4,102,1451. 17s. ld.
had been applied- to the service of the year ending
Januaiy 5,1822, to defray the expenses of managing
and collecting 62,882,156/. the gross ordinary Re-
venue of the -United Kingdom, at a rate of 6/. 10s.
per cent. The Resolutions then set forth the smaller
rer tentage formerly paid on the collection of the
Revenue, and declared it to be desirable, in order to
enable Parliament to controul this branch of the ex-
penditure, to lay before the House an annual estimate
of the expense to be incurred in the management and
cone:aim' of the. Revenue.

Mr. LUSHING FON would not accuse the Hon.
Officer of any improper motives, but he thought he
lald prove before he sat down, that he had grossly
d:ceived himself. In his very first item there was a
rniitake of three millions, and in the next there was
r error of more than five millions ; and the House
-2..0u1d therefore see that it could come to no con-
c:l:.iun on calculations so erroneous and fallacious.—
error into which the Hon. Officer had fallen,
on Li* having compared the permanent duties of
12 with temporary and permanent duties of ISM

I) his first Item
lion. Mika ought to add

Which gave a total ut

And to his next item, on the Ezebe
Should be

24,711,000
Where details wete so erroneous, the House would
see how dangerous it would be to adopt the proposi-
tions founded on them. The Hon. Gentleman con-
tended that there was a great increase in the rate of
per tentage paid on the collection and management
of the Revenue. This he denied. Instead of a great
excess, there was but a very small one, not amounting
to more than the twelfth past of a pound. The rate
per cent. on the collection in 1812 was 51.95. Bd. In
1820 it had increased to 51. 11 s. 4J. This it would
be found came exactly to the proposition which he
Lad stated. The increase which was remarked would
be explained from the circumstances of the two pe-
riods. In 1812, we were at war, and the Revenue was
in some measure protected by that circumstance.—
Since the return of peace, a large and expensive esta-
blishment had been found necessary to save the rove•
nue from being injured by smuggling, and he bad
only to express his surprise and satisfaction at the
measures which had been adopted having proved so
effectual to keep up the revenue. This could only
be imputed to the prevailing spirit of vigilance and
integrity which pervaded all who were employed in
the Preventive Service. He begged to assure the
Hon. Gentleman that every exertion had been made
to produce the papers for which he had moved, at
the several departments, and explained the circum-
stances which had made it impossible to comply with
the call as yet, and which would prevent it from
being answered for some weeks to come. It was
because the papers called for from the Customs were
so voluminous, and that reference must be made to
every out-port in the kingdom, that they could .not
yet be given. The parties engaged at the several
offices wanted not the reproach which the Hon.
Officer was di,posed to bestow, and he entreated him,
when he moved for papers so voluminous, to make
allowances for the labour which must be performed
before they could be given. The Hon. Officer had
understood the fees of the Solicitor to the Excise to
amount to 40,0001. per annum, to 30,0001. or to
20,0001. The account he held in his hand shewed
their amount in one year to be 9,0001. and this sum
was to be divided between two individuals, who
had thus incomes of 4,5001. each—(hear, hear).—
Now when he considered that it was the duty of the
Officer who had been mentioned to watch over a
Revenue of 29,000,0001. he could not think the sum
he received more than he had a right to expect as a
remuneration for the important duties which he had
to perform. The expense of the preventive force in-
cluding everything, was 5'20,000/. but taking Ireland
into the calculation it might come up to the sum
named by the Hon. Gentleman. The question was
not what was the amount, but whether the amount
livas necessary ? He would contend, that there was
nothing connected with it that could be regarded as
at all supeifluous, nothing but what was really ne-
cessary to protect the trade and the Revenue of the
country. The Resolutions were erroneous and full
of errors, and where there was a mistake to the
amount of eight millions and a half—(V°, no, flan:
Mr. flume). lie did not feel shaken by the No, no,"
of the Hon. Member for Aberdeen,

,81 0,025,000
3,262P00

13,285,000

19,476,000
5.23,,he Goo

Which :are a total of

There was an omission in the first item of
•la the second of

£3,262,000
.5,135,000

Making a total of . - • £3,497,000
The Hon. Officer having been thus mistaken, it was
impossible lOr the llou,e to adopt his Resolutions.
Ile referred to a lare volume on the table, and re-
walked, that nine such were produced in a year, in

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which the tietteetshie t find tie roost
minute accounts of the Intai e and emoluments of
the officers employed in de revenue. For the esti-
mates called for, he could not conceive how estimates
of expenses which must depend on the commerce of
the country and other matters that were contingent
and uncertain could be made up immediately. Many
of the accounts which Gentlemen moved for might
be round in returns which were annually made. It
would be well if Gentlemen, before they moved for
so many papers to suit their own views (he did not
mean imprOper views), would use a little application
to see if they could not find what they wanted in what
had already been produced. Were this done, a.great
expense would be saved to the country, and =lncon-
venience Would be sustained. Some remarks had been
made on a Commissioner lately appointed. He would
say the Excise Board had not gained a more valu-
able addition for many years than it had received in
the person of the Honourable Officer who had been
alluded to; and he could not but think it a little hard
that his former honourable life should be urged
as making against his fitness for the situation which
he now filled with distinguished ability 4nd great ad-
vantage to the Public. He concluded by moving the',
previous question.
Mr. HUME compared the statements which his
gallant Friend had made with the Returns, and con-
tended that the Hon. Officer had been correct.

Mr. LUSHINGTON pointed out wliere the error
had occurred.

Mr. HUME went on to compare the per centage
paid on collections with what his Hon. Friend had
stated, still maintaining that he had been correct.
• Mr. LUSHINGTON remarked, that there was a
;win belie to vxplain the manner in which the calcu-
lation had been made on both the permanent and
temporary Revenues. •

Mi. HUME then went through a series of state-
men►s, to shew that his gallant Friend had quoted
from the Returns correctly. If the Hon. Secretary
thought that he (Mr. Hume) was wrong, he would
request the Clerk to read them.

Mr. LUSHINGTON again mentioned the note
which explained what he had before mentioned.
__ _

The book was handed to the Clerk. He was called
on by Colonel DAvIEs to read the note, but it ap-
peared the note which had been mentioned was not
in that book—(A laugh).
Mr. HUME remarked, that they had been referred
by the Honourable Secretary to a note, where no note
was to be found.

Mr. LUSHINGTON then read from another book
on the table the note, as to the mode of calculation
which had been adopted.
Mr. HUME said, his gallant Friend had quoted
correctly, and the Hon. Secretary must own that he
(Mr. Lushington) had in this instance made a little
slip. He did not conceive that the objection made to
his Hon. Friend's motion was valid. If it was, it was
equally so against all estimates that were laid before
the House. The Hon. Member then contended, that
estimates of the expenditure for the collection of the
Revenue ought to have been at all times submitted
to the House in detail. He then contrasted the ex-
penses of the collection of the Customs in Scotland, in
the years 1805 and 1821 ; and made it appear that
there was an increase of 400,0001. He also alluded to
the increased salaries now allowed in various Offices,
over those of 1792. The Commissioners of the Board
of Taxes, who at that period were paid at the rate of
6001. and 5001. a year, now received 16001. and 10001.
He would ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer how
he meant that the reduction of 10 per cent. should
bring these increased allowances down to the standard
of 1792? He took the proposition to be a mere
mockery. The same rate of advances had taken place
in the salaries of the Commissioners and Officers in
the Customs, in the Excise, the Tax, Stamp, and
other Offices. He thought the countenancing of
these things to be downright extravagance, and al-
though the Hon. Secretary might find fault with the
harshness of his language, he could only call it extra-
vagance, for no other word would express his meaning.
He thought the 'expenditure for the Customs was too
great, and ought to be reduced. He was sure the
country would not be satisfied with what the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer had done. He conceived it
to be but a paltry scale of reductions, compat ed with
what the country demanded. It was stated that the
charge of collecting the Revenue was to be 600,0001.
But there was a sum of 80,0001. for the Revenue ser-
vice, under the charge of Victualling, put into the
Navy Estimates. He also condemned the appoint-
ments to the Revenue Service, and complained of the
allowances made. At the same time he was ready to
admit that the service was arduous and hazardous.—
With regard to Superannuations, how could the
House consent to admit the prin:iple when they saw
the extent to which it had been carried ? He held in
his hand a volume, consisting of above thirty pages
of superannuations. The Hon. Member then read
over some of the superannuations granted to indivi-
duals who held situations in the Colonies. He alluded
to an Officer at St. Lucia, named J. Bridgeman, who
had received an allowance of 5001. after six years
service at the rate of 20001. a year. He conceived
this to be quite an abuse, and he thought the House
ought to put down the system. He also adverted to
the cases of the Collectors at Barbadoes, Nassau, and
Sandy Point, all of whom he considered to have been
allowed too much for their services. There was a
Mr. Sampson, who, after fifteen years receiving a
salary of 5001. retired upon an allowance of 350/.
Ile could not see why he was entitled to any such
proportion. In short, the system of superannuation
was like the system of increased salaries, and ought
not.to be sanctioned by the House. In what he had
said he had only done !his gallant Friend justice by
supporting, as far as he could, the Resolutions which
he had submitted to the House:

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that the von etas* of col*Ong the fiiirenue
1812 was 51. 9s. d. mid in 1590, SC 11 tr. 4d.
Sir I. COFFIN said, •thsit .ip. Of brie ofibi
instances of superannuatiOn 'cited the Hon. Ora.
tleman, the party was totally Wind.
Sir O. LONG contended, that the number of Cons.
missioners of Customs could not be reduced without
injury to the public service, as there was sufficient
employment for all. He admitted that the principle
of superannuation had been carried too far in the
Customs, and he and his brother Commissioners had
proposed various reductions. A very considerable
saving had been made in the Preventive Service. At
the time first alluded to by the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen, in 1807, the system of fees was established,
and a considerable expense had been incurred by their
abolition. Of that the Member for Aberdeen must
have been fully aware, and not to have stated it was
to.deceive the House. He could not assent to the
motion of the Hon. Member, as it would be produc-
tive of no good. In the course of the last three years
there had been a reduction of expense in the CuAoms
to the amount of 100,0001.
Colonel DAVIES replied. He admitted he ought
to have mentioned, that he took the per ccntage upon
the ordinary revenue. He had, however, no ob-
jection to give up the second Ind third Resolutions,
because it was the principle that he contended for.
The previous question was put on the several Re-
solutions. The three first were negatived. On the
fourth the House divided :
For the Resolution
Against it

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Majority
MUTINY BILL.

. 25

93
- -6$

Lord PALMERSTON moved that the House re-
solve
itself into a Committee on the Mutiny Bill.
Mr. BENNET observed, that his Hon. Friend the
Member for Aberdeen (Mr. Hume) had given notice
of a motion for an instruction to the Committee re-
specting the power of the King to dismiss Officers.
He hoped his Hon. Friend would not press the mo-
tion at present, as it did not as a general question
excite that interest which he thought it deserved. It
' was the complaint, that in the House as well as out,
it was tile disposition to treat lightly constitutional
questions in comparison of money matters. But in
those times, when the Members of that House were
rather limited, 152 voted for the motion of 1731,
while in the other House no less than 62 Peers voted
on the same side. The Gentlemen on his side of the
House were on this occasion reduced to a sort of se-
lect society—(A laugh, and hear). The Gentlemen
on the other side might laagh and jeer, but he ex-
pressed most unfeignedly his surprise and regret, that
the distinguished Gentlemen with whom he had
usually the honour to act, should have been absent on
an occasion so deserving of their interference and aid.
Mr. BRIGHT looked on this as a great constitu-
tional measure; and he wished the Honourable Mem-
ber for Montrose would persevere in his motion, as
he hoped that those who were present would do their
duty without noticing the absence of the leaders of
the Opposition.
Mr. HOBHOUSE joined in the entreaty of the
Honourable Member for Shrewsbury, and hoped the
Honourable Member for Aberdeen would make the
question alluded to the subject of a specific motion,
for this reason ; the Mutiny Act, he was ready to
contend, did not convey or confirm any such power
to the Crown as that to which the motion of the Hon.
Member referred, and therefore that motion was not
properly connected with the Mutiny Act.
Mr. HUME declared that he had no objection to
bring forward his promised motion respecting the
dismissal of Officers at once, while he was, of course,
willing to ray any attention required to the advice or
request of his Hon. Friends around him. He begged
it to be understood, however, that he had no objec-
tion whatever to address a thin House, which, in-
deed, he had often been in the habit of doing, upon
questions very materially affecting the interests of
the country. He could not help expressing his anxious
wish that the motion referred to by his Hon. Fi iends
were taken up by some more able hand, whose exer-
tions he should be most happy to support. The Hon.
Member concluded with expressing his intention to
waive his promised motion for the present.
The House went into a Committee on the Bill.

Mr. HUME said, many parts of the 13111 were ob-
solete, and he should move to have them expunged.
Lord PALMERSTON said, the only alteration
was to be made in the mode of Settlement for sol-
diers and their families.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN wished a soldier not to be
kept in suspense. If be was condemned to death, let
him know it at once, that be might make his peace
with Gon, and be shot next day.

Mr. BRIGHT objected to the right of the Crown
to make Articles of War.

Lord PALMERSTON thought power was in the
Crown to make Articles of War, long before the first
Mutiny Act. That only gave die Crown a power of
making the Articles of War a part of the law of
the land.

Mr. BRIGHT wished to limit the prerogative of
the Crown in this respect.
Mr. HUME, on the 29th Clause, wished to add—
" That all punishments should be according to the
rules prescribed by this Act." There could be no ob-
jection to this.
Lord PALMERSTON thought this was unneces-
sary, in an Act which prescribed the Courts and
the punishments. The person unjustly punished had
his remedy !
Mr. HUME only wished that all punishments should
be agreeable to law, and the provisions of this Act.
Mr. WETHERELL contended, that the Crown
could make new Articles of War independent of this
Act, by which Officers might be tried. Whether this
should continue or not, was another question.
Sir ISAAC COFFIN said, the Hon. Member for;
Aberdeen was modest for once. He wished that a sea-
' tence should not depend on a Commander-in-Chief.
Colonel WOOD thought the Hon. Member for
Aberdeen's intention was to carry that by a round-
about way which he had given notice of, but abandoned.
Mr. HUME denied that the king had any prero-
gative to punish any Officer or man unjustly, and it
would be doing so to punish them contrary to the
I provisions of this Act.
I Mr. COURTENAY.wished the Hon. Member to
' state his real reason for this amendment. They had
a right to know what case of punishment the Hon.
1 Member alluded to in this instance.
Mr. WILLIAMS felt that the dependence of the

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17