Star.
London, England, 1822-07-24 00:00:00

57.71"'"

the permission of Old Spain before this fartmr
granted? He wished that the 'whole. of
cumstances relative to the new Republic
fairly brought before the House—( Heat,
would not go through the history of the contest
which the independence of twenty-five trillions
people had been obtained from their unw
tyrannic masters. He believed it was corm
complislied, With the exception of one far
was not proceeded against, from a desire to
useless shedding df human blood. There
fore no excuse for withholding that recogl
the rights of this Republic, vk hich it would I
portant for them to obtain. It could not be
-that such a cause would be giving counter);
support to rebel bands against legitimate
'mew. The South American States were p;
-entitled to tjle recognition of this country
'was at our instigation that they had first fi
signs to liberate themselves. He alluded
'commendation of Mr. Dundas, in 1791, to
qislr Consuls. There was, besides, another
ation, which was, that the Government of
tad declared that no nation should share ii
fits of the commerce of,that country who
cognize her independence. Any one who
present at the .meeting on this subject lately held,
and attended by so many mercantile persons of emi-
• oence. could not fail to be impressed with the im-
portance to this country of securing a portion of the
'commerce of Columbia. As an Englishman, lie re-
gretted that this country had allowed the United
States of America to surpass her in the glory of re-
• cognizing the freedom of the South American Colo-
nies. He concluded that England had virtually re-
cognized the independence of these Colonies. By the
treaties which Old Spain had also made with her,
he maintained that she had done the same. The Ho-
nourable Member concluded by moving for copies of
ail the correspondence which had taken place be-
tween M. Zea and the British Minister at Paris, and
also the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs, re-
specting the right of the Columbian Government to
be recognized.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY felt himself
•'soniewhat at a loss to know how to meet the Hon.
• Gentleman's motion. He had not confined himself

merely to a motion for papers, desiring to but the
House in possession of information of -the present
state cf the negociation between his Majesty's Go-
%ernment and the Agent for the Columbian Govern-
ment, but wished to open the whole question of po-
licy: He had thought that the Hon. Member intended
-to lay before the House his views of the course which
ought to be adopted. The motion in the Speaker's
hands did nor; however, afford them any such assist-
ance. Ile believed it was not the practice -of Parlia-
:xnent to call upon the Executive to lay information
before it, upon a negociation which was not con-
cluded ; and he thought, that if there was a case in
which the House ought to abide by die principle•of
practical wisdom, which dictated that no interference
should be made between the responsible Ministers of
the Crown and the relations with foreign Powers, it
,was the present. It was a question of magnitude, and
.of great difficulty, and the effect of this motion must
'be to prejudice the pending negociation, and the ge-
-neral interests of the world. He protested, however,
against the act of one Government being a decisive
rule for that of another. He trusted this country
:1d never run a race with another Government in
ich a case, merely because that Government had
night it convenient with its interests to recognize
: independence of another. If Spain had not acted
its on the occasion of the American Revolution in
manner altogether consonant with good faith, he
Tied that we should prefer resenting such conduct
r generosity, and not pay it back in her own coin
whilst she was under the pressure of difEculties (Hear).
Justice and liberality had been the grounds on which
his Majesty's Government had conducted the nego-
ciations with that country. He hoped the House
would not see any reason to distrust them from a re-
vitw of their conduct towards the South American
Colonies. They had recognised all their public acts,
such as blockades ; they had respected their flags and
armed vessels, and everything, in short, which the
Tight of people to manage their own affairs might be
posed to demand. He (die Marquis ot London-
' had never refused to see any ot their agents.—
, had gone upon the principle, that as far as
e was a de facto Government, this Government
. a right, as regarded the mother country, to cul-
vate a de facto intercourse. He must say, that he
did not think the Honourable Member could have
'that information. which would enable him to have a
sound judgment on this subject. It was necessary to
'kno.w what was passing in Spain with reference to the
Colonies, and in the Colonies with reference to Spain,
before that question could be settled. But he did not
think that the House could touch the question as it
at present stood, without embarrassing it in some
way. It was one of the most important questions that
had been entered on their Journals this Session ; and
unless it were the object of the motion, that Parlia-
ment should give some advice to the Crown, or take
some practical steps on the papers moved for, lie
thought it would not be Parliamentary to accede to it
--Vicar, /sear). He hoped the Hon. Gentleman would
see the propriety of withdrawing his motion.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH thought that it was
not uncommon in the practice of Parliament to move
for papers with a .view rather to introduce a discus-
sion on a particular subject, than to obtain informa-
tion. Such motions were frequently made without
any intention to tie up the hands of the Executive,
which he admitted should not be interfered with as
to time and circumstances. He was ready to main-
Uhl that the recognition of this Government could
he no infringement on the rights of Old Spain.—
Spain was the country which had more frequently
than any other raised their questions among the other
nations of the world ; for her Provinces and Colonies
had snore frequently thrown off her yoke. In 1642
this country signed a Treaty of Alliance with the
King of Portugal, one year after he had declared
such in opposition to the Clown of Spaio. He quoted
also the recognition of the United Provinces of the
Netherlands, at the very time when the Envoy of
Spain was actually calling upon the Government of
this country to treat them as rebels againsthis master,
the King of Spain. The result, however, was, that'
the King of Spain very boon gave up'bis demands in
this respect, and that very Annoy was sent to the Ne-
thedaridi is his • 8ri54041.6 Majesty's Ambassador,

_ for the advantage of British subjects(Hear.)—
Ile admitted that a country which committed itself
to the policy of revoked colonies, as Fia.nce had done
with those of North America, and as Spain had done
a year after France had taken that course, placed
itself in a state of warfare with the mother country.
But here the case seas rely different. We, by recog-
nizing the-Independent Government, should neither
express approbation nor disapprobation. We had no
right to express'either ; but by the act of recognitions
we should merely do that which was necessary to
re-
lieve our own subjects from tile disadvantageous si-_
tuation in which they stood, as compared with those
cif another great commercial nation ;w
and not doing
this, he considered the Government was guilty of a
•iolation of its duty towards the English merchant,
by declining to take that course which might be
taken without giving any just cause of offence to
Spain. The recogni:ion of a Sovereign not in pos-
session, as France had recognized the son of James
the Second, was an insult, if not an attack on the in-

dependence of the country concerned, as it was an
intrusion. It was pronouncing an opinion where the
party had no right to pronounce one—presuming to
act as judge, where it had no right to claim juris-
diction, and, by consequence, it offered a wanton
and gratuitous insult. Here the case was totally dif-
ferent. We were not called upon to decide on the
questionable claim of a Prince out of possession. It
had not been urged as a matter of complaint against
France, on the restoration of the Stuarts, that she had
sent Ambassadors to the Protector Cromwell. The
right of recognizing an existing Government had
been considered to belong-to every State, because it
was held to be the duty of every State to promote
the interest of its subjects. He proceeded to contend
that it was essential to British interests that a diplo-
matic intercourse should be established between this
country and the Governments of South America.
This would enable us to obtain information that
would put a stop to those depredatiiins which had
been directed against our commerce, and lead to the
extirpation of the pirates, who had long been in the
habit of preying on the subjects of neutral nations.
Ought we to continue to sustain such injuries because
Spain refused to give up a claim which all the world
knew she wanted the means to enforce? Perhaps it
was not generally known how long Spain might be
expected to persist in such a claim. It was only' for
the moderate period of sixty-seven years that she had
persisted in maintaining her claims on the united pro-
vinces, after they had become independent. (A laugh).
Were we now to submit to the inconveniencies under
which our commerce laboured for sixty-seven years?
He further suggested, that the feelings with which
the Governments of South America must view the
sullen manner in which her independence had been
half recognized—the passing of the Foreign Enlist-
ment Act, under the pretence of maintaining a strict
neutrality, but which was, in fact, a measure of hos-
tility towards them ; and the way in which our com-
merce with South America had been indirectly dealt
with, resembled the conduct of a person who was
ashamed to be seen with another, but for his own
convenience was willing to have a little closet con-
versation with him. The feelings likely to be excited
by these circumstances were calculated to lead those
Governments, influenced perhaps by our commercial
rivals, to adopt regulations that would be injurious to
our trade. Ought we to submit to such evils on
account of the exploded claims of Spain? Was this
country in such a state that we could afford thus
to play with the capital of its merchants ?—(Hear). ,
If by such a course we only diminished our exports
to South America, the House would surely consider
this a miserable exchange if we gave up these out of
respect for the claims of Spain. Such a line of con-
duct, he hoped he had shewn, was neither justified
by common sense, nor by the line of conduct which
any other Government had ever pursued under simi-
lar circumstances. He considered that we had a right
to recognize a Government actually in possession,
that our subjects might not be placed in a more dis-,
advantageous situation than those of other subjects,
and that he would maintain we might do without vio-
lating any duty which we owed to Spain. China
might as well be expected to demand that we should
not do so, as Spain, for the Emperor of China had
for sonic years past exercised as much authority in
the South American States as the Spanish King. To
abstain from recognising the South American Go-
.vernments under such circumstances was, as Mr.
Burke had said (using an old English saying), " to
prefer the frill and ruffles to the shirt"—the form to
the substance. He again described the disadvantages
under which our merchants laboured for want of a
diplomatic agent to back their representations when
they were aggrieved. In conclusion, he declared it
to be his opinion that the Hon. Member for Ipswich
deserved the thanks of the House for bringing this
subject forward. If the Gentlemen interested, ho-
nourably interested as British merchants in the deci-
sion come to by the Government, would now by their
votes evince their feeling in its favour, he ttoughtthe
effect would .he to strengthen Ministers in the views
they took: f this question, if they were sound ones—
to confirm them if they were wavering, and, if they
were wrolg. to recall them from error, and to .a'
line of policy much more conducive to the interests,'
of their country.

don to the French Court on the subject, not denying
the authenticity of this report. He 4Dr. Lushiugton)
had never lost sight of the subject, and he now
thought the time had arrived when the House and the
•country were entitled to know whether the French
Government had given such an 'explanation as the
Noble Marquis considered satisfactory, and such as it
became the honour of this country to receive ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, commu-
nications had been made to the French Government

.....
on the subject of the documents which had been pro-
duced from Buenos Ayres, in the answers to which it
was not admitted .by the French Government, that the
agent at Buenos Ayres was justified in the represen-
tations which he had made.

Mr. MARRYATI' begged to state what was, per-
haps, not generally known, that British ships trading
to South America at present,. paid just double the

tonnage duties which were paid by the subjects of
other countries who had Consuls established there.—
Many of our merchantmen in those parts had been
plundered in a most extraordinary manner by what
was called the Chili fleet, under the command of one
of our own countrymen. Several of the parties ag-
grieved had complained to the Government in South
America, but, having nobody to support their repre-
sentations, they stood but a poor chance of getting
redress. When an American vessel was carried into
Lima, the only American frigate on that coast im-
mediately went and openly released the captured ship,
while our men of -war suffered British ships to remain
in the hands of those who had thought proper to
detain them. He mentioned this to shew that our
commerce was at present carried on under great dis-
advantages. HeAowever, thought it a little ungra-
cious that our Government did not recognise the in-
dependence of South America, while they were dis-
posed to profit by the mart which it opened to our
trade. He hoped the recognition would not long be
deferred, though he admitted it was proper that the
Government should be left to decide on the time and
circumstances under which this should take place.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, if the
Hon. Gentleman had brought forward the case of
any particular capture in the South Seas, he thought
he' should have been able to give a satisfactory expla-
nation. There had been in all 16 or 17 cases. Some
questions were still pending. Our Odicershadstrongly
remonstrated in several instances, and upon the whole
he believed the cases had been disposed of in a man-
.ner that left very little ground for complaint. S;:eak-
ing with all respect for a science with which he had
some acquaintance, he meant diplomacy, in the pre-
sent state of affairs in South America, he thought the
representations of our Naval Officers were likely to
be quite as successful as any that could be made by
a diplomatic agent. He therefore did not think that
the interests of British Merchants had at all suffered
from their being less entangled than they might have
been with diplomatic discussions.
Dr. LUSHINGTON stated a case to have oc-
curred within his knowledge, in which an Independent
sloop had been captured by one of our cruizers and
carried into one of our West India Islands. The case
was brought to this country by appeal, w hen the
King of Spain thought fit, through his Ambassador,
to claim the property in the captured vessel, on the
ground of her being a pirate. He was sorry to say
the claim had been partly admitted. He knew the
case well, having been engaged in it as Counsel. It
had been necessary for them to go to the Tower to
search for precedents. Finally, a compromise took
place, and half the property went to the King of Spain.
Dr. PHILLIMORE explained the necessity which
had existed for discussing the claims set up to the pro-
perty which had been mentioned. The claim of the
Spanish King had not been recognized as correct, but
the neutrality of this country between Spain and South
America had been recognized on this occasion.
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, it was easy to
find fault with the conduct of British Officers, but
they had a difficult duty to perform, from the man-
ner in which Spanish property had been covered by
British ships. As to the tax imposed by Lord Cochrane
on our trade, that was done by right of conquest.—
Having conquered the territory to which our mer-
chants were proceeding, he had told them if they.
paid such a tax he would allow them to come there;
but if they would not do so, they must go elsewhere.s
He did not say this was not an improper assumption
on his part, but the merchants were not compelled
to pay the tax. A remonstrance on the subject had
been successfully made, and Lord Cochrane had beep
recalled by the Chili Government. He sai4 this in
order to justify the Commander on that station. Our
Officers there would much rather have to act with
their guns than with their tongues, but he thought
their forbearance commendable. As a great nation,
it would ill become this country to shew its teeth on
every occasion. When this was done at all, it ought
to be done with some efficiencyrtr:The'Howse.slivided
Ayes 111
Noes -
hlikjority against the Maim -
After a short conversation, in whichMr.-romstor,
Mr. WILIMFGAtCIt, and
naftlrY partiCipa‘sd, Mr. Wagaarroi Cgalacnyt
given noiice,iii4)
ad
postpone the motion, of which Ore
I re. ear the extemlent of 413ii*7 r,.01..C.544e4 C.rd?
110 Pet till T.llRksOilig • •

made betweenthe manner in which the revenue was
collected in Leland and in England, a period ought
to be taken, when the circumstances of the two coun-
tries were in some degree similar.- He would not
deny that England was far more advanced in all that
concerned revenue, and enforcing the collecting of it,
than Ireland; but if a comparison were made between
England and Ireland in this respect, taking a period
when the state of England generally corresponded
with that of Ireland, he should not fear the result.—
With respect to the number of defaulters, lie had to
remark, that in England evert defaulter had failed for
a considerable amount. In Ireland there had been
many failures for small sums. In England there
might he twenty defaulters for 100,0001. each, while
in Ireland if there had been nearly 300, the majority
of them failed for not more than 1001. each.
Mr. HUME contended that the state of Ireland had
nothing to do with the argument. The money was
lost in the hands of Collectors appointed by govern-
ment, and it was with the improp, iety of such ap-
pointments that his lion. Friend had found fault.
He would now mention a circumstance which he
,hould not perhaps have the opportunity,of again
mentioning during the present Session. He had moved
in the course of it for a return of all public defaulters;
and the returns had been made and printed from all
the Office: except the Ordnance and the War-office.
Those, he understood, had been made, but he had not
seen them. The abstract of the volume which these
returns formed shewed that in ten years the amount
of deficiency by defaulters amounted to £1,124,000
'and upwards; and this was a sum which lie thought
that the Chancellor of the Exchequer ought imme-
diately to look after. The deficiency arose from ap-
pointments where no proper securities were taken,
and from allowing too great balances to. remain in
the hands of the Collectors. The Hon. Member then
read the following abstract of the Parliamentary
Papers for which he had moved, exclusive of the
Ordnance and War-office:

ABSTRACT OF PARLIAMENTARY PAPER, NO 327, or
1822. PUBLIC DEFAULTERS WITHIN' TEN YEARS.
Trea=ury—Mr. Chinnery's balance - £60,110 15 51
Army Pay Office - - - 5,220 14 24
8.0 - r4ck Office .. - 1,793 16 4
Navy Pay Office .- - - 28,122 6 6
Royal Marine Pay Office - - 3,085 15 3
Victualling Office - - - 3,505 7 9
Tax Office - - - 67,280 6 41
Customs (England) - - - 24,074 4 61
.--- (Scotland) . - 3,205 16 44
Stamp Office - - - 11,254 9ZI
Post Office - - - 11,595 17 0
Commissioners for Auditing Public Accounts 482,111 S Ot
Colonial Audit Office - - 12,885 14 0
Lottery Office - - - 2,941 15 #
Woods, Forest, and Land Revenue Office - 1,451 15 1}
Auditors of the Land—England and Wales 19,483 8 41
Court of Exchequer (Scotland) - - 13,221 7 0
IRELAND.

Tax Office -
Excise -
Stamp Office -
Post Office -
Military account

27,525 9 4*
5,959. 19 6
51,746 8 51
21,528 13 111
270,525 16 4k

$1,124,393 5 1
The Bills were then ordered to be brought in in pursuance
of the RescAlutions.

The Tithe Leasing Bill then went through a Commitee, in
which the blinks were filled up, and the Report was ordered to
be received to-morrow.

The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned At One o'Clock.

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tom were' He could tit conceive a strengeerreeedelit to justify Siy RAM%) -
ihoptatbat ain wonl4l. . ceintinTua Or aunia. '
I the eir• titre tlitli Spain *aottriet OM lififteleid' 47 tit Aga Ibige? rtagfflite the iti • - &nes; ' ItiiitfPOrtittle Comrnittee OMboilnsbedniit
the recognidoa of the indepetideOci otlatt late Cole- of:SOoth-America,
: should be was tenvieCed Oat the longer: uP, anaitsOltiitClutitins ieved Ito. •
ato. He nies on the, part. of England. But it m)ghtise sup-•
she di4 *IN..* -ketje abe would continue to .sets • Mt. W. SMITH, before Bills were ordered to be
contest by posed that Spain had acted in the way he had de- againstber Diva inxema. • He.wished to ask them:pa brought,in founded en die Resolutions, thought it
mitions of t
eribed, when it was unquestionably out of her power Marquis whether the 'queiticin of The recognition
of right to remark on the manner in which the services
villirie and
was frt. the. table, he feued that in connexion with.the Eng-
to recover tire United-Provinces,(eieqr, kgfir),..-- South AmericaO fndepehdence was at present viewed. for Ireland bad lieen conducted. Frem.papers on
. ipletay ac. The fact was the eery revers, of this, for.* the pe- purely as a British question, or whether it,
Ort, which
; there had been, in the course of a certain ,nuniber of riod to which he had referred semi notary opera- tered in any .way.bu the treaties made, or "the nego. lish Post (Wee, which produced annually 1.300,090/. -
ntions 'were in pro rase, and will' a fair prospect of, ciations carrie(' qn at,A,,jz-la,Chapeile or elsewhere?
spare the
I
was there- success.. But rimier such circumstances, Spain bad The Marquis. of LONDONDERRY had no objet- years, twenty-one def‘olters, thrOugh whoni,t)lari had
ignition of not disputed the right of England toit.be en friendly don to answer the question: He had no hetitationin , been a deficiency of, bpsool. In' cclonexion;lYAii,d4 •
ci be so im- terms with those provinces; and, she had remained saying that he considered the 'question to be' wholly : Post Qfgce of Aieland, which produced annually but
,e supposed at peace with England, though England continued and solely a-British qUestion, It was viewed without :5-SiOOOL abfpt a twenty-second Part of 'tile Reveille
nance and the friend of the United Provinces. Nothing could reference to the interests of any foreign Power, and del ived from, the English Pcit Office, there had Iron
to Govern- be stronger than the recognition on the part of Spain, was only to be disposed of according to the law of , 275 delaulteri; ancra deficiency bad thus beep treatise 1
larticularly of the right of another independent State to take that nations, the Treaties which had been approved by ito double the amount of that which -he had *men- I
'y, since it, part which was best calculated to promote the in- Parliament, and with a view to expediency, and that tioued in the Enroll* Poet.office.revenne. The total .
formed de- terests of its own subjects. What was the nature of generosity and prudence which it became this country amount of defalcations in Great Britain and all the • 1
to the re- the recognition for which he contended ? Vv'as it in- to displays . colonies was 390,0001. being little more 'than double
.o the Bri- tettded to establish and strengthen the Governments Pr. LUSHINGTON wished to ask a question.—' the amount Orchose,which had occurred in Ireland
q consider_ of Colombia, Buenos Ayres, Chili, or Mexico? Not Two years ago he bad brought forward a motion on alone, which at the Union, it would be remembered,
Colombia in the least degree. It was not a guarantee to pre- the subject of an attempt, understood to haye been it bad been settled was only to pay two-seveuteenths
, .
in the bene- serve the present order of things; it was not to bind made by the French Court to establish a Bourbon of the charge thrown on England, and which now
,
did not re- us toward them, or to connect us with them by Prince at Buenos Ayres. The Noble Marquis had did not pay more than one twenty-firth. li
o had been alliance; it was merely called for- because it would then stated himself to be about making a represerita- Mr. GO,IJLBVRN thought, if a comparison were
i lately held. be for the advantace of British subiects-.-( Hear.l don to the French C.nnyt nn tho ceihiaer nnt Aariviner made isetutt4n th., re.../... .. ....).:..I. oh..