Star.
London, England, 1822-03-09 00:00:00

amminewomimmits
found that in gem foveign.cbuatei
the highest adulation. - -- •
Mr. RICARDO TOW to say.
Bank of England was brong)skunder
of the House, he conside;ed it his
its conduct as he thoaght fit. Witt
Bank Directors, he never meant to
Cation on their detect*: he was '
full credit for their motives • but he however thought
that the establishment had fed the country into many
difficulties. The Bill passed in 1798 would not have
been injurious to the country if they had known the
true principle on which to act; they issued too great
a quantity of paper, which had been, in a great mea-
sure. the cause of many calamities that ensued. In
1819 they committed an error, which they acknow-
ledge I themselves; they were !willing to lend
4,000.0001. confessing at the time that it was a
greater quantity than was necessary, which aggra-
vated the evil; if they .thought they could issue
4,000.0001. whether in paper or coin, and keep a
circulation in the country, they were much mistaken.
The circulation of this country could not absorb an
additional sum of 44000,0001, and therefore must
have gone abroad. It was his opinion that, the course
the Bank pursued was injurious to the country, and
therefore he had a right to animadvert on it.
Mr. GURNEY said the country was in extreme
distress firm the conduct of the Bank.
Mr.'MABERLY said his object seemed to have
been misunderstood. The Bank of Englind afteady
received a large sum for the management of the pub-
lic Imoney-3401. and 3601. for every million over 60
millions. If Ireland received 20001. far every million,
it was still a larger remuneration; and the object of
his motion was to ascertain if it werethe case, by the
production of the necessary papers.
Mr. MONCK began by saying that he believed the
Bank of England acted witha full knowledge of their
own interests. On the suspension of cash payments
the Bank had eight millions in circulation, they then
issued a paper circulation to the amount of thirty-
three millions. The increase depreciated the 4rrency
as to gold 25 per cent. and, as to all other eommo-
dities, 50 per cent. During the suspension of cash
payments they lent large sums to Government in a
depreciated currency, and they now called upon Go-
vernment to repay them in the restored currency.—
In 1797 Bank Stock was only 120 per cent. and now
it was 280 per cent. No establishment ever made
such an immense profit as the Bank of England;
and such profit could not be obtained unless at the
expense of the country. For those reasons he could
not bear to hear such applause bestowed on the Bank
Mr. WILSON said, if the restriction had not taken
place the country could not have gone on; he thought
the war could not have been carried on without rt.
It enabled the country to put forth all its energies to
sustain it. The Bank could not be fairly charged
with mismanagement, as they were backed in all,
their views by Government.
Mr. M ANNING rose, and said that no comparison
could he fairly instituted between the two Banks.— '
Though the Bank of Ireland charged nothing speci-
fically
for the management of the public money, yet
the difference between 3 and 5 per cent. gave it
a large remuneration. If the Bank of England re-
ceived the same per centage, it would readily manage
the public money for nothing, and gain considerably
by it. Instead of receiving but £8,140, it would
have received an addition of £40,000 if it had
charged S per cent. on every loan. He did not wish
to throw any imputation on the Bank of Ireland ; so
far from it, he wished, with all his heart, prosperity
to that establishment, and all the other institutions
of that country.
Mr. GRENFELL said, that he was aware of the
fact that the Bank of I. eland received 5 per cent. and
the Bank of England 3 per cent. for all advances to
Government; and he complained that Government I
giving so much to the Bank of Ireland was no justi- I
fication of what they gave to the Bank of England ;
he thought either too great a remuneration. Ile
could assure the Directors that he meant nothing per-
sonal to them ; they were no further interested than
as to the amount of their qualifications ; but he really
thought the measures adopted by the establishment
injurious to the country beyond all example. From
the time the charter was granted down to 1797, the
interest never amounted to more than 7 per cent. but
the advantages to the Bank subsequently were very
great,which materially injured the country ; and that
he would state, though he was a partaker of those
advantages derived from an increase of interest.—
Besides, in consequence of the advantages derived
from the Restriction Bill, there was an improvement
of the capital of the Bank to the amount of thirty
millions ; that increase of capital, added to the 7 per
cent. left an immense profit. That fact he would
challenge any of the Directors to disprove. Much
had been said of the services of the Bank during the
war, but he could not imagine how it was entitled
to it ; it never made any advance without receiving a
handsome interest. He thought it ridiculous in the
Bank to assume to itself any merit for carrying on
the war, while at the same time it was advancing its
own interests. An Hon. Director referred to a Reso-
lution entered into by the Directors, in vvhieh it was
stated they had no hesitation in saying they were in
a situation to resume cash payments if the political
state of the country admitted it. Though he had
been a Member of Parliament twenty years, and
whenever the continuation of the Restriction Act was
proposed, voted against it, yet, on no occasion, up to
1819, was thereto be found a single Director on his
side. So far from :hewing a disposition to resume
cash payments, they fought against it to the last.
The Resolutions were then agreed to; also-similar
MS for England.
NAVY FIVE PER CENTS. BILL.
Mr. LUSHINGTON moved the Order of the Day
for the farther consideration 'of the Report of the
Navy Five per Cents. which being accordingly read.
he then moved that the Bill be recommitted.
Mr. TIERNEY said, he could see no reason why
they should not then proceed with the Report. He
had some observations to make on the subject, and
was then willing to proceed.
Mr. LUSHINGTON said, he felt unwilling to take
the business on himself, in the absence of the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer; but, if it was the pleasure
Of the House, he would go on.
Mr. TIERNEY said, that he had some suggestions
to act on the clauses of the Bill, which could not

wisoritlivapeet
which the Parliament had, by the Act of 1797, over
the 5 per Cents. in the way of ?educing the interest,
or paying them off. until 25,000.000 L of the Na.
tional Debt had been recleaned. That objection did
not occur to himself ; but he confessed that, since it
was started, the more he. considered it, the more
doubt and difficulty he felt in coming to any decision
on it. The Act of 1797 had made provision for dif-
ferent kinds of Stock. It provided for some in the
3 per cents. NM in the 4 per cents. and for some in
the 5 per cents. By that Act, the S and, 4 per cents:
might be at any time redeemed, but the-5 per cents.
were not to be paid of until 35400,0001. of the Na-
tional Debt bad been first redeemed and paid of—
He was not able to glee any opinion on that point
himself, but he would suggest it to the consideration'
of the House, by whom et ought to be noticeJ, and
not passed by sulraileodie. In considering the enact-
ments of that Bill, he was well aware it would be
contended, in reply to that objection, that a much
larger sum bad been redeemed and paid .off since
that period. He was aware that the sushi redeemed
by the Commissioners for redeeming the National
Debt would be said to be paid off; but the sum
'standing in the names of the Commissioners could
not be said to be paid off. If they were paid off,
they would be at the disposal of Parliament. But the
Debt redeemed by the Commissioners was not, he
lap:nehended, at the disposal of Parliament, within
the spirit and meaning of the Act of 1797. The
words '0 paid off" struck him the more, because he
could not call the Stock redeemed by the Commis..
• 14 paid off." He admitted that he had no die.
tinct knowledge of that objection. but he than ht
the House ought to have it explained. But the plan
proposed for paying off the holders of that Stock was
objectionable on different grounds. In Mr. Pelham's
time, whom the Right Honourable the Chancellor of
the Exthequer. professed to imitate, the holders of
the Stock which he wished to reduce had the choice
of being paid off according to the agreement origi-
nally made at the creating of that Stock. The Right
Hon. Gentle.nan then went into a history of that
f transaction, and contended that no holder was then
paid off but according to • the terms of the original
agreement. He himself would give nnopinion upon
the principle of the plan, for he had none to give.—
He did not wish any observations he could make to
excite any false hopes through the country, but he
thought the House should consider it. But it was
absurd to compare the present plan with the plan of
Mr. Pelham. He had adverted to the hit,ory of that
-transaction, and he found nothing more dissimilar:
It was suggested in the King's Speech to his Parlia-
went, that they should be watchful to improve any
opportunity of putting the National Debt into a me-
thod of being reduced; with a strict regard to public
faith and private property. The Address of the
House was, of course, a re-echo of the King's Speech.
Mr. Pelham soon after brought in his Bill, which
held out no threat, no compulsion, but even invited
the holders to a choice of taking their money or the
new Stock at the reduced interest. He proposed that
those who were holders of the 4 per cents. should, if
they thought proper to assent to the plan, have 4 per
cent. for one year, which was 1750, and should have
Si per cent. for seven years after—namely, to 1737,
their Stock to be irredeemable during that period ;
but they were to have only S per cent. from 1757
out. Mr. Pelham made the proposal to the holders
to that effect, without compulsion or threat ; and by
giving seven years until he should come to the re-
duced rateof interest, Mr. Pelham meant to let down
the holders as easily as possible from the high rate of
interest, which was very different from the plan pro-
posed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. He, however,
did not mean to say that the Right Hon. Gentleman
was doing anything illegal. All persons purchasing
in the 5 per cents. should have known that that Stock
was liable to redemption ; but, notwithstanding that,
he could not but regret the situation in which they
were placed, in respect to the short period which was
to be given them to make a choice. Mr. Pelham
gave three months to the holders of the 4 per cents.
in his time, to consider whether they would assent
to his proposal or not. At the end of that period a
large proportion of the holders came in and assented,
hut the large Companies (the South Sea Company
and the East India Company) still held out. To those
Mr. Pelham said that it was not right they should
have the same advantages as those who declared their
assent in time. He accordingly refused them the
same time which he gave the other holders, and he
allowed them but five years notice of being paid off.
But the Chancellor of the Exchequer, acting in a
very different manner, gave notice, that if the holders
did not signify their dissent within sixteen days hi
would consider them to have assented. The Right
Hon. Gentleman told them that they might dissent
they, would, within that time, but, if they were not
within that time they were to be taken to have as-
sented—(Hear!)—which certainly appeared to him
a very strange method of proceeding. He (Mr. Tier-
ney) was as anxious as any man for reducing the in-
terest of the Debt, if it would lead to a diminution
of the burdens of the country. He had the same
interest in reducing the interest of the Public. Debt
as any other; but he thought that they should act
with justice in bringing about that event. The Right
Hon. Gentleman (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
proposed that 41 every holder must give a direct an-
swer on or before the 16th of the present month ;"
and he adds, " If you don't say' No,' within that
time, you are to be considered to say Aye'"—(Heer,
and a laugh). But there was another clause in the
Bill, with regard to Ireland, more extraordinary
than the clause he was commenting on. The clause
stated that persons possessed of debentures there might
be at liberty to convert them into Five per Cent. An.
nuities ; and if they did not, within the time limited,
signify their dissent, they were presumed to take the
4 per cents. Such a case no one ever heard. A man
who held only a debenture, and no Stock at all,
would have his debenture cancelled; and be obliged
to take the reduced interest. But the strongest ob.
piettiells sad the most serious grievance which all felt,

dui*
snake up their minds; bit the greater part of the
Udders of that Stock could not so readily come to a
decision. A poor per.,on, who had an annuity of
£lOO, or MO, or X 960. was to lose one-fifth of that
*aim before he (Wald determine whether it would be
More advisable to assent or dissent. He would en-
deavour to chew sufficient reason for granting more
*nes always assuming, on the part of that House,
that they meant to act fairly, and that it Wei not in
to take any one by surprise: for, if that was,
not intended, time enough might be afforded. Who
could say what would be the result of the reported
differences between the Court of Petersburgh and the
Ottoman Porte? He would call their attention to
that pa of his Majesty's Speech which adverted to
i his nterference in those differences, and his hopes
that he could bring them to an amicable adjustment.
In the very first paragraph of his Majesty s Speech
he addressed his Parliament thus :
" I have the satisfaction of informing you that I continue to
receive from foreign Powers the strongest assurances of their
friendly dispositions towards this country. Ir is impossible for
me not to feel deeply beep:Wed in any event that may have a
tendency to disturb the peace of Europe. My endeavours have
therefore been directed, in conjunction with my Allies, to the
settlement of the differences which have unfortunately arisen
between the Court of St. Petersburgh and the Ottoman Porte;
and I have reason to entertain hopes that these differences will
be satisfactorily adjusted."
I.—Thas it was clear there were some differences, and
that there was a negotiation on foot for the adjust-
ment of those differences. All knew what effect that
circumstance bad on the Funds. In the midst of that
negotiation two months should be granted in order
10 know the result of those negociations. He meant
'loathing disrespectful to any person, but unless time
o eregtven, the thing seemed no better than swindling.
If no injury could result from the delay, he could
nut conceive the cause of hurrying the Bill. It could
not be denied also, that the operation of the Sinking
Fund had no influence on the Stocks. But the mode
of operation by that was not yet known—(llearl.
When the Noble Lord (Londonderry) was asked what
he meant by the present Sinking Fund ? the Noble
Lord replied, he would answer when that Bill was
passed—(Hear). Did the Noble Marquis mean to
adhere to the Resolution of the House in 1819, to
hold a Sinking Fund of five millions, accumulating
at compound interest? But if he did not, then he
had no Sinking Fund. They talked of paying off
the dissentients, and that in a measure very differ-
ent from the plan adopted by Mr. Pelham—(Hear).
They were to be paid off numerically, and in a man-
ner to be left open for the consideration of Parlia-
ment. If the holder dissented he would have a mark
at his back ; he would perhaps have his £lOO on the
day lollowing, or would be paid as Parliament would
settle after. At all events, the dissentients would be
numbered, and would be marked for the indignation
and wrath of the Right Hon. the Chancellor of the
&chequer. He (Mr. Tierney) argued the question
on the broad principle ; he was not going into the de-
tails of the lfill. He thought he made out a case to
the satisfaction of the House for granting more time.
Some decision should be come to between Russia and
the Ottoman Empire. Besides that, the high rate of
interest was to be paid until July. That was a ma-
terial point. No saving would be gained to the Pub-
lic. All the holders were to have the five per cent.
interest until July. Nothing could be gained to the
Public by hurrying the Bill then and unless Minis-
ters had some feeling that something would happen
to alter the value of-the Stock, they need not refuse
to give time. It could not be at present a matter of
surprise that persons would be desirous of waiting
the event of the negociations which were pending
between Russia and Turkey. He said he could-en-
large on these points, but he feared he occupied the
attention of the House too long. The points he
wished to be considered were, first, the objection of the
L'25,000,000 being necessary to be paid off, which
was a question for the consideration of Parliament.
The nest was the new mode of taking the assents,'
by requiring the dissents, which was different from
Mr. Pelham's method. The third was with respect
to the time proposed for giving the dissents, and also
the manner in which it was proposed to pay off those
who dissented. There was one point more: did the
Noble Loid (Londonderry) believe what he him-
self told the House with respect to the prosperity
of the country ? If he did he would gain by delay
hear!)—but if the Noble Lord knew the
contrary was the fact, he, in that case, had some rea-
son to hurry the Bill.
M. LUSHINGTON said no one regretted more
thin he did the absence of his Right lion. Friend the
Chancellor of the Exchequer, as he could adequately
reply to all the points of theitight Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Tierney). On one point, indeed, he felt it easy
to satisfy the Right Hon.,Gentleman. With 'respect
to the paying off of the 2.5,000,0001. it would be seen
by tke 53d of the late King that 238,000,0001. of
the public debt were then declared to be satisfied and
discharged. A reference to that Act would be
enough to meet that point. He would maintain that
there was the greatest similarity in the present plan
to the plan of Mr. Pelham, and he would read the
history of the transaction, as recorded in Smollett's
History of England. The Hon. Gentleman then read
the passage, which may be found in the 7th chapter
of Smollett's Continuation. The question was, whe-
ther the terms proposed were consistent with justice
and public faith? The holders had an option whether
they would take 1081. in the new Stock for each
1001. in the old, or take 1001. in money, according as
it might be settled by Parliament. Ample time was
given by the Bill to those who were absent from the
country. He would submit every clause to the Com-
mittee, where they would receive full discussion.
Mr. ELLICE said that the statement of the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Lushington) was no answer to the
•objections of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Tierney).
He would net go into the law of the case. Wheel,
in 1813, the House resolved that 238,000,0001. of the
National Debt were redeemed, they did that in cem
templation of an alteration in the Sinkin Fund, but
I
It bad Ito reference to the Act of 1797. t appeared

044 glys - speettlatiOny suppose
• preen residing in Scotland t• hold wine of thae
llsoshcit was necessary be should make up his mind
souse days before the.espiration of the limited period,
w Turkey, or walaenynews arrivedpartnf then from
the nti natussinna
the
last day, a person residing in London, who need not
It
in his dissent before, would have the advantage,
It was the Bill, then, and the want of time in it, that
gave room for speculation. Mr. Pelham gave ample
time to consider, when there could be little difficiilty
lin coming to a determination. Many difficuliies
sed now, and sufficient time ought to be given. He
wished to know what rrovision was made in case two
firs more, who held Stock jointly, differed, and that one
assented but the other dissented ? Were they to go
WO. Chancery ? But he did not see the P's lic would
gain anything by the plan. On account of the bonus
of five per cent. there would be no more the a
saving of one million in eight years—(Hear, hear)._
He thought more would be gained by a different
mode of reducing the Debt. If, in imitation of Mr.
Pelham, four and a half per cent. were given for a
limited period, and then four per cent. without any
bonus, but with more time to consider, something
might be gained. But why be in such haste? The
first dividentl would not be until S in. 1823. If more
time were given, it would bd more creditable to the
Country, and more just towards the holders. With
Inspect to the benefit to be derived from the Right
Hon. Gentleman's plan, it was like his plan of a
Sinking Fund: he borrowed with one hand to lend
with the other.

Mr. GRENFELL said, he regretted to diTer in
opinion from his Right lion. Friend (Mr. Tiernecl,
and he could not but feel diffident in expressing his
want of concurrence in the sentiments of his Right

Hon. Friend. He approved of the measure in plia-
ciple as well as in detail. He could not agree that
there was any legal difficulty in the way of the Bil',
with respect to the condition mentioned by his Right
Hon. Friend. That condition Ire considered as amply
fulfilled by the paying of of any of the twenty-fi%e
millions of the Debt. He trusted, however, that the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman would explain the pre-
sent measure, by a Resolution similar to that adopted
in the course of Mr. Pelham's measure. The question
was, whether this Bill could be adopted consicently
with the principles of good faith ? and he(Mr. Gren-
fell) asserted that it could. He thought more time
should have been given fcr dissent, but with that ex-
ception he had nothing to object to the measure. It
had been said, thift it might have been made in a
way more advantageous to the Public. He (Mr.
Grenfell) was quite satisfied with it as to the extent
the Public would be benefitted by it, and he hoped a
similar arrangement, as much to the public advan-
tage, would be made again.
Mr. TIERNEY explained, that he had not meant
to object to the principle of the measure, but to the
mode in which it was executed.

Mr. HUSKISSON said, he had not been aware
that the legality of the measure would be called in
question, and therefore was not so well prepared as
he otherwise should have been to shew the Iv mind-
lessness of any such objection. But he was perfectly
satisfied in his own mind that no douLt could be sup-
ported of that description. As to the right of Parlia-
ment to pay off the Navy Five per Cents. Stock, his
Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
had referred those who questioned that right to the
37th of the late King, which declared that that Stock
should not be paid off till twenty-five minions of the
National Debt should have been liquidated. He ad-
mitted there might be many constructions ',Aced
upon that condition ; but, unless it was meant to be
contended that it signified that this Stock should not
be paid off till the Public Debt had been reduced 25
millions below what the amount then was, no other
construction that could be placed on it would enable
:hem to make out a case, chewing that the condition of
the Act had not been fulfilled in the present measure.—
But the Hon. Member for Coventry (Mr. Ellice) ad-
mitted that he did not think so extraordinary a con-
dition was meant to be annexed to this operation....
But then it was contended, that the operation of bor-
rowing with one hand and paying off with another
did not constitute an actual redemption of debt on
which to justify the operation, according to the in-
tention of the particular Act in question; for it was
said. that that which increased the Debt could never
be interpreted into a bona fide reduction. Admitting
this, fur the sake of argument, he was prepared to
shew that twenty-five millions had been paid off
without the aid of borrowing. The way in ‘.hich
this had been done, he conceived to have been done
by the Land Tax Redemption Bill—(Hear, hear!).—
They were. therefore, reduced to the neces,ity of
contending that the Act bound them' to hold the
Navy Five per Cents. inviolate till twenty-five mil-
lions had been reduced below the amount of Debt
existing in 1792, or any operation tothat effect. He
(Mr. Huskisson) did not think the Act would bear
that construction. He thought the conditions of the

Act had been fulfilled to the utmost; and that there
could be no question as to their right to carry the
present measure into effect. The next objection was
to the time, and the mode of the measure, and with
reference to this, the Hon. Member for Coventry
(Mr. Ellice) had made a most extraordinary proposi-'
tion. He said, that at the end of seven years, only
one million would be saved by the proposed measure.
If the Honourable Member adverted only to the no-
minal amount of the Debt—to the capital—and put
out of sight the amount of annual burden which that
capital imposed upon the nation, then there might
be some truth in the proposition. But in what light
did it appear, when it was clear that this operation
had the. effect of forthwith diminishing their burdens
to the extent of I,soo,oool.annually—(Hear, hear)—
at the same time that it did not interfere with the
Sinking Fund] nor affect the public credit ? If they
were to keep up the Sinking FuGd, keep public faith;
and at the same time remit taxation, they could not
do so without adding to the National Debt? Tao

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