Star.
London, England, 1823-02-13 00:00:00

• SUPPLY.

Upon the motion that the SPEAKER should leave
the Chair, and the House go into a Cointattee to
consider the Supplies of thelre4r,
Mr. HUMI rose and said, chat before the Speaker
left the Chair, it was his intention to adopt the Con-
stitutional mode of saying a few words upon What
hk. considered to be the faults of the Government,
before, the House proceeded to grant .the Supplies:
The Speech of his Majesty, which he must consider
to be.that of his Ministers, promised the strictest'
economy ; but, unfortunately, that had always lieen
the case without being justified.by results. ft vras
from experience only that they could judge of what
they were to. expect ; and he should, therefore, refer
to what bad been said,
.and suisseqpently 'done, upon
former occasions. 1n.1817, :Olen a Cothmittee was'
appointed for the purpose af:enforeing.econonty and
retrenchment, and which had been spoken of in such
high terms by a Noble Marquis, now no more, the
Estimates were given at 13,951,0001: but the actual
expenditure of.the year .amounted to 14,820,0001. an
increase of nearly a million. In 1818, the Estimates
amounted to tspwardi of fourteen millions, the actual,
expenditure to 15,155,0001. being an increase again:of
-nearly one million. This, too, was after the declaration
of the Committee, that there was to be a progressive
reduction of expenditure from the year 4817. Unfortu-
nately up to last year it had been a progressiye increase.
Such was the manner in which the House had been
seduced by fair words front year to year, and when
:they came to look at the results, they found that more
:taxes had beenraised, more had been taken out of
the pockets of the people in the present yekr. than in
anyone duties the last seven. He therefore hoped
that the-House Would not look to these sweet 'and
honeyed words, but . to the actual results by which
they had. been followed.. The same professions of
economy, even to the language, had gone through
every speech, of Ili; Majesty for the. last _twenty
years ; the House would therefore know what trust
was to be placed in them now. He hid put down
this statement upon paper, to shew that the general
amount: of the estimates and expenditure had in!
creased from 1817 dowrkto 1823. These remarks
referred. to general. heads, and he should next pro-
ceed to details and particular cases, and there they
would find the mine results. Only a: few days ago
Loscl Beresford had been appointed Lieutenant-Ge-
neral of the Ordnance, An office which he should_shew
ought.not to. ha,ye been .filled up... The expenses of
the Tower Establishment loviincreased,frOmj.:2o,ooo
cal:48,000, and that was chiefly incurred in salaries:
General lieresford received one of these, and the
office of Lieutetiant-Getteral of Ordnance was now.to
be kept up. When Sir Hildebrand Oakes died, be
thought the office would certainly be allowed to drop.
The Report of the Commissioners' of Military In-
!airy, in the . year 1811, expressly declared the
offiee to, be unnecessary. Lord Moira and Lord
-Chatham, .were the two Masters-Genesal of the'
Otdeauce at that time, and Lord Moira stated
his, belief; that' the tiffice was . not a useful one,—
turd afatham was of a different opinion, as he
thought it was mseful,.43iitstbe Ccpamisoioners agreed
with the fornies. If those Catntrihtioners declared
, that it was not necessary in 1811, invi trae of war,

10 *cub! isle- atk t'lle -Coo tilt%
ht Siciold. ask itte- Ministers themselves, how they
ceutchnaintain it **sr in time of peace? He di& not
wish to throw oat my disparagement to the services
of Lord BeresfOrd. 'Let them be called ever so great,
and he would agree Os' it ; but those services had trot
gone unrewardect.&ent as They ;night have beem...
Wheithe *ifs pieh~,' **d the- HouiegrUntedisiit
a pension of £2OOO a year. - htitlft. itione).d aoft
quarrel with giving hithlhe'lttle'ititi 40t lnippwrtingthe
Peerage horrouriblY icleired.4lteithat,llis Loral,
ship was appointed Governer of Jerseys for Whit**
received. £144 _ ayear; 'then, as* Lieutenant-Gen&
ral, he had £600; and Is 'Colonel of a Regiment,
riQO or f:800 more. if he drew hii pay as Lieuesk
cant-General, he allowed that the Colonelcy Nrohlti
he less ; but he might take the two nether at £lOOO.
And last night it appegieilll;the Gawter, that he
had entered upon the receiptilli-Ll5OOl year motet
making altogether upwards 'of 4:6000 a year...:_
He could not help connecting with 'this-chte Borough
influence belonging to the Noble Lord's family.=.
The public money which the Beresfords receivestsiitit
enormous. He should shew, upon some future octal
sion, that they were receiviog from the public pm.
petty of the Church of Ireland, thousands and tees
of.thnusands. At present it was :Sufficient that he
should call upon the House to ask Ministers why they
had filled up this useless otfice in time of peace? and
not to grant the supplies until thatquestion was satix,
factorily answered. lie looked for the support of
many of those Gvntlemen who had never, till now,
seen the danger and destructive character of the mea.
sures of Government. He wished the House to cons
sider whether the British Public did not expect that
the public money should be voted freely, aye, and
liberally, where the interest and dignity of the State
required;. but, whenever it was practicable, with the
most rigid 'curtailment and economy. Ile concluded
by cnciving a ResolUtion, "That the Commissioners of
Military Inquiry, in their Thirteenth Report, made in

_ .
1811, eipressed their belief that the office of Lieute-
nant-General of Ordnance was not necessary or useful.
And that the House is of opinion that the recent ap-
pointment of Lord Beresford is inconsistent with the
professions of economy contained in the Speech from
the Throne."
Mr.. Secretary CANNING' said, that as he under.
stood the Honourable Member, he intended this as
-an amendment- to the motion that the Speaker do
leave the Chair.
Mr. HUME assented, and 'the original question,
together with the amendment, wereput from the Glniir.
Mr. Secretary CANNING rose and said, that a hat-
ever were the merits of the case the lionourable Nlern-

her had advanced, and without at ail pronouncing
any opinion upon it, he wished the Honourable Mem-
rber to consider setiously the shape in which he bad
put the resent question before the House. It was
*.at Most, aicatting 'to his Own chewing, a case not
particularly aggravated in its attendant circular-
, stances; yet he was resorting to the extreme remedy,
of stopping the supplies of the year, until a detailed
answer .should be given to a question, the subject of:
which had nut been even mentioned before the ma
ment at which it.ivas thus formally-put. To the Ha
nourable Gentleman himself this would perhaps hi
no consideration, because he would not admit .tht
usage of arliattent as argument against him ; bet,
with dre-House itwould be, if it desired to preserve
that .caution and regularity which gave dignity
an,
effect to its proceedings--(Hear, hear, hear).-.
It nei,er could sanction the step now proposed to be
taken; upon a case which, even according to the
Honourable Member's own inculpatory statement,
was not pne of those glaring abuses which demanded
exeriordinary interference and repro'oation. The Hos..
Gentlethin had said, that he traced in the appoint.
ment of Lord Beiesford, an attention to the Parlis-
mentary influence possessed by the Nob* Lord's
family.. Now he thought that any man, when be
looked at the services and the' talents of that•Nehle:
Lord, and when he considered from whom the at
'pointrnent came,. and the Witty years of glorious taa
and victory_ which had united them; sr.!ght have per,
ceived a-more generous and eitalted motive for the
act. Looking at such an appointment, whatever
might h'ave been the objett of GovernMent, Wit;
been made by them, the Duke of Wellington was tut
last man who could be supposed to have had .any
idea of .Parliamentary influence when he offered Lord
Beresford the office. But it was perhaps uselees
offer *thellon. Gentleman reasoning upon such a
and he would therefore meet him with facts. The
ttuth was, that the appointment had been first offered
to Lord Hopetoun, secondly; to •Lorditill,' and it
was not until it had been refused by -bath Aloe
' Lords that the offer was made to Lord Beresfoo.--
No one could suppose that there was any ideavtllta
liamentaryinfluence in wishing tnappoint the *fit of
these Noble and gallant Lords. It did, thevefotaPP
pear a little,suncandid, when they saw in the three
presentments one comment motive, to say that the
motive of the third was different from the sole riding
niCitive Which; .so evidently governed the whole. it
was not his intention to enter into any defence of the
office itself, as regarded its Absolute necessity ; be•
cause, taken as they had been by surprise, it was
possible to say of any office—,except, indeed, offline'
whose business was manifest 'to all men's eyesr-wbAt
were its exact duties, or to detail the necessitY Alt*
existence. But, upon a first view, this did not appear
to be a case of any great extravagance. It, vies trot ir
first appointment, a new. place .rtiaclefor the °cession,
but one which bad become vacant, and a vaciincY
which had not been suspended.• Gentlemen
ought to have given notice of his it tion to bring it
before the House; and then it miglit have beeo. met
upon the merits, in a separate and distinct disetiisioa•
He took- no shime to himself for being ignorant of
the nature of the office, when thus talc;ii by sisrprisei
He again pressed upon the Hon. Nlernher the extreard
character of the measure he had proposed, and hoped
that he would think proper to withdraw it;. it not,
the sense of the house must necessarily. be titlten.
Mr. BROUGHAM regretted that his Hon: fiend
should have brought forward so imtiortarit a mottos
in such a way, as to allow of any defence' of that
against 'which lie contended, on account of Malmo,
ner in which the motion had been. introJuceiL 1111
could not help wishing that it shad been postponed, 4,
it was by much too important for being intrincycea
so incidentally and casually, as it were. If attitbitf
could increase his regret at this, it .vas the lihe
defence which had been set up by the ltightllo6
Gentleman cklr. Secretary Canning). Tbaf &lett!

or explanation,* Or whatever it might be, had re-
4ved itself into a personal defence of Lordlieres•
foril, rather than anything irtiustification. of the keep..
jog up of the office. The Right Hon. Gentleman had
sown why Lord Beresford had been appointed -in
preference to some others; but he bad not offered.
oxen the shadow of a reason why the office itself had
been kept up in oppo,ition to the recommendation of
the Com mittee,.neither had he offered any reason why
it had been offered to ei her. He himself had the
highest respect for Lord Beresford, and he could also
understand why the Duke Of Wellington should respect
'Nue who had been his companions in arms; but he
remained to he informed why the office itself existed.
All that had been said by the Right Hon. Gentleman
was, that he found the office existing and vacant.
But surely the hare 'part of existence was no proof of
utility. The office hall been pointed out by the Com-
mittee of Military Inquiry for abolition, and so the
•question was not respecting the. qualifications or
4.-nerits of Lord Beresford, but that an office had
:.-en continued which ought to have been abolished.
Still, however, the proposal of his Honourable Friend
Nlr. Home) was rather an extreme measure. There
was something harsh as well as inconsistent in pro-
'posing !hat the house should withhold all supplies
'till the were put in possession of information which
had never been till that moment mentioned. Upon
this grotlnd, as well as upon the hope—the certainty,
that it would come better .its the regular Parlia-
mentary way, he would advise his .Hon.-Friend to
withdraw his motion. lie lied no hesitation in say-
ing, indeed he was quite certain, that postponement
is ould not operate in prejudging or injuring the ques-
tion. or preventing that full discussion of it which its
importance required. Ile trusted that some delay,
at least a delay of a day or two, would be agreed to
by his Honourable Friend.
Mr. II UNIE was sorry if he had taken the House
unaware, ; but-he could not agree to the .postpone-
ment. Ihe country was led to believe that the va-,
Laney, sshen it occurred, would not be filled up. He
only asked for a delay of 48 hours in the granting'
of the Supplies ; and, if this was not to be granted,
then it would be better to leave the House altogether,
and allow his Majesty's Ministers to settle matters as
themselves saw est.

General Sir R. C. FERGUSSON thought that, colt•
siderin• the state of the country, private friendship
and all things should give way to economy. He would
vote for the Amendment of his Hon. Friend. The
office was a useless one, and it had been so stated by
the Commisioners. It was true, as had been stated,
that the whole of the duty had, in the absence of the
principal, been done by the Seiretary.
Strangers were ordered to withdraw, butt before
many of them had left the Gallery,

Mr. IVA RRE rose to say, that he did not give an
opinion upon the merits of the question; but, as to
the manner, he liked the ordinary practiceof.motioaX
by notice, as it was extremely inconvenieotfor Him
Gentlemen nut to know what motions were to be dis-
cussed before they came.to the House.
Mr. G. BENNET telt hirnself imperiouily called
upon to reduce an useless office, considering the great
embarrassment of the country. He would take every
opportunity of opposing wasteful expenditure; and,
Ulm Hon. Friend (Mr. Hume)..chose to • divide. the.
House upon every item of the Sap Ply, he would. ac-
quie ce in it.• As to the .practice of. giving notices,.
he thought it of anything but use, as it was that•
which enabled Ministers, on the great field days, to
bring forward their sweeping majorities. It was by
divesting the 4 ttefition from these field-days;that his
Hon. Friend .had been able to operate so much eco-
nomy.. He hoped he would go on.
Ms. BROUGHAM.—GOD forbid that he should
object to this or any other measure of economy. AU
that he wished to do was to disentangle the question.
from that of the Supply, by which it would have
every chance of being carried by A Majority. •
Mr. C. HUTCHINSON,The office had been
voted by the Committee to be useless. The work had
been all done, by the Secretary, therefore they ought
not to he,itate a moment in abolishing it, especially
in the present 'important crisis. • The House ought to
attend paiticularly to that pat t of his Majesty's Speech
whieh'prinnised every. possible retrenchment.
Mr. ABERUROMBY would not wish to pot off,
the .discussuak of so important a measure as that
which was proposed by his Honourable Friend, but
he thought that .question should not. be confounded
with the question of Supply. To stop the Supply
was • oae of the most important privileges of -the
House, but it was one to which they ought not to
advert but in extreme cases; and if the motion of his
Honourable Friend would at all tend to stop the
•granting of the Supplies, then in his (Mr. Aber-
cromhy s) opinion, it ought to be delayed. He had
no.wish to underrate the value of his Honourable
Fsieud's proposition—far from it:. he wished that pro-
position to come before:the House in such a shape as
that it could be discussed fully Andfreely ; and for
this reason he would recommend to his Honourable
Friend to detach it from the question of Supply. If
he would do so, there was every chance that he would
carry it by a large majority. If he would keee it on
its own merits, it could not, recommended as it was
by the Committee, fail of being carried.
Sir F. BUILDETT thought himself bound, upon
most occasions, to support the Member for Ahersign,
who, in his zeal to save the public money, really Ile-
served support. Still he could not go along with him
ie the.present case. It would be inconsistent in the
House, on the one hand, to can upon his Majesty, in
the present critical p tate of Europe; to support the
honour and dignity of the nation, and, on. the other,
to withhold the supplies necessary for this purpose.—
The stopping of the supplies was, as it were, the ul-
timate power of the House of Commons, and should
'Hot be resorted to so long as there were any other
'means of redress. Thets:' mumissiosers deserved credit
for their recommendation with regard to this office;
and the lion. Gentleman deserved commendation for
.his.geAl to sec., hat they had proposed carried into
'effect.. He (Sir F. Burdett) believed that the Honour-
able Uentlernais had grounds for what he had stated ;
'but then he ought to beware, that in the manner in
'which he pursued his obleet,-he did not go beyond
what was warranted by prodence and discretion. It
debsd a hope do e'mrying this measure, he would
_ris-k it 61)mi an issue of this description. Considering
NIL" nide of Europe. the iel.uion in which this country
-Wed, and the sacrifices-.winch it might be called upon.
:to make, he hoped his Honouralde Friend would not.
PM, it. He would do well to consider the suite

in which he placed his friends, and on that account
be induced to withdraw his Amendment.
HUME...-. If the motion which he had pro-
posed would in any way interfere with the honour, of
the country, or disturb the harmony ofoll parties, he
would, for the sake of unanimity, withdraw it.—
(hear, Hear.)—The Amendment was withdrawn
accordingly, and the Hoase resolved itself into a
Committee of Supply. Report to-morrow.