Star.
London, England, 1815-04-15 00:00:00

SLAVE TRADE.

Mr.WILBERFOKCE rose, respecting his motion
of yesterdsiy, tor obtaining the Peti;ioa of Messrss
C.104/4 and Ounbar. It wasairged that these
individuals had been tried before an incompetent tri. •
bunts'; but the fact wits, that the precedent of Dr.
Then pe, in a similar case, was followed by the per.
son he had deputed to try the case. It was upon a
point of law that these persons were acquitted, not
upon the marks of the case; which circumstance now
induced him to move that an Address should be pre.
tented to his Royal Highness the Prince Regent, to
pray that a Copy of the Petition of Messrs. Brodie,
Cooke, and Dunbar, should be forthwith laid before
the House.
Mr. H. ADDINGTON said, he considered it his
indispensable duty to object to the motion of his Ho.
iv)urable Fi Lnd. It originated in the circumstance

ot a pamphlet having been published by the Chief
Justice of Sierra Leone; a pamphlet of no real
weight ; the opinion of lasV.officers was, that the in-
:viduals in question v.ere tried by an incompetent
tribunal, and on that ground only their pardon had
been granted.
Mr. HORNER was astonished that the document •
should be refused on Parliamentary grounds. Par.
liament had been jealous for the AY:litico of the
Slave Trade. Three persons were now convicted on
the Acts, and yet the country was refused to know
the occasion ot pardoning those individuals. If per.
sons for want of mere form were acquitted, or rather,
when found gulty, were pardon, 1, it became most
inJispensable for the House to have the facts before
them, in order to arm the Executive with fresh power.
Since it w.ts quite clear these persons were guilty, it
was evidently as necessary to amend the laws, whether
in satisfaction to the House or the Public at large.
Mr. B. BATHURST could net see why tt was
necessary for the House so far to interfere with that
most excellent prerogative of extending mercy by the
Crown, which the present motion would in effect do.
Th.: fact of incompetency in the tribunal was ad.
ut Lte.l ; and .on this notorious detect the pardon was
granted by the Orion. He could not perceive the
East grounds for interfering With the prerogative of
the Crown.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, that if the Honour:able
Gentlentrn (Mr; Wiiberforee) had spoken from any •
other part of the House, probably no objections would
have been made to his motion. There was no inten-
tion to interfere with the prerogative of the Crowe I
the motion was made by the Member for Bramber,
and not by a Gentleman habitually sitting on those'
betiche.
T.ie SOLICI.FOR.GENEN.A I. said, it was tut
owiog to any defect of the Act of Parhantelt, nor to
any defect of the Commission sent nut, hut fr.=
doubts as to the extent of the, junsdictiun of the m-
bunal these persons were tried by, that the Crowe
*As advised to pardon them. This affair being coma
mitad out of British territory, and the Court or Seem
Lemke n at having the poeer to try persims inns coin.:
mining offences out ot British territory, the eons.-
:pence was, the individuals in question wereilii.gailr
eons( k- [ed. Whether it was elittib:e to frameao
to that Court greater powers, WO quite anu.
ther consideration.
Mr. P. MOORE said, he had the how -or of laying
the foundation stone Al tins deb ite, and to
say a few words. With respest to the gener.il tro,
cations in the Petitions, lie contended, that, having
examined those ectiLiu;ibp he could awe* ikon Will

•

m ~~,..

no evidence to convict, setting all legal I points aside.
The better way would be, to appoint a Committee
to investigate the subject now before the House. He
had no hesitation in saying, that the manner in which
the Abolition Act had been carried into execution
had done more mischief than the Slave Trade in its
rtmost fury. He still would urge the appointment
of a Committee, promising them his best information
and attendance.
Mr. WILBERFORCE said, what he feared most
was, its being understood that this crime should be
committed with impunity ; since it was most likely
to be committed by British subjects, trading in parts
of Africa not.under British jurisdiction. The pre
.
endings of the House would certainly give this im-
preseion to the world. He was, therefore, very anxi.
this to have it clearly understood that this was an
atrocious crime, amounting in some instances to mur-
der, punishable by British law ; and thet the present
persons had only escaped by the inadequacy of the
tribunal that tried them, and not because they hid
ner committed a punishable crime. Although he
was not so fond of attending Committees as when
he was a younger man, still he was willing to meet
the Honourable Gentleman on any Committee of the
kind. He had not, however, been in the habit
ot sitting on .such Committees, because they were
formerlyotinder the case of his Friend, the late
Henry Thornton, Esq. whose ability and integrity
deeded no eulogium from him—( Cries of Hear I from
awry part of the imam) ; and who never could be
suspected of setting on foot the colony of Sierra
Leone for the purpose of trafficking in slaves. The
charges were in the present instance most clear ;
cid he confessed he saw no good, in meeting from
morning to morning, and then coming to no salu-
tary conclutian,
Mr. H. ADDINGTON said, the sentence of
transportation was about to be carried into execution,
when doubts arose, suggested as to the competency
of the tribunal. His impression was, indeed, that
the petitioners bad in their petition all acknowledged
their guilt.
Mr. W. SMITH thought, that unless some great
inconvenience was apprehended from producing '
the Petitions, it would become his Majesty's Govern-
ment to accede to the motion.
Mr. BARHAM said, he certainly thought, after
the insinuations cast upon us by foreign countries,
as to our sincerity for the abolition of the Slave
Trade, that it was highly desirable to produce the
Petitions new moved for.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL. spoke in support
of los Honourable Friend (the Solicitor General)
and maintained the incompetency of the tribunal by
'whom the present individuals were tried. He did not
consider the proceeding as requirieg any thing more
thau a questi el across tee Table ; but if the deci.
sien was supposed to bang on a doubt respecting the
criminality of ireding in slaves, there existed no
deelberon that point ; for if these individuals had
be 'n properly tried, the sentence of transportation
must have been carried into effect.
Lord CASTLEREAGH now submitted to his
Eon lineable Friend (Mr. Wilberforce) whether he
- had not already obtained all the explanation he wish-
ed for; .and, it so, whether he wished to press the
business farther.. The criminality of the parties was
allowed on all sides ; but it was not eligible to lay
the opinions of law officers before the House, on a
crime that was reachable by the law. He, therefore,
still submitted to his Hon. Friend whether he might
slot withdraw his motion.
Mr. WILBERFORCE said he left the motion in
the hands of the House.—Marion then withdrawn.
PVIDITURES FROM 31NAPARTE.
Mr. PONSONBY said, he wished to ask the No-
ble Lord (Castlereagh) a qpegion, which he con-
ceived of the greatest importance to this country.—
The question he should put first was, whether there
was any sort of foundation for the rumour, that
overtures had been made from the present Govern-
ment of France to our Cabinet ? Secondly, if such
overtures had been made, how they were treated ?
He supposed and understood, that those overtures
bad been transmitted for consideration to Vienna.
if this were also the case, he then wished•to know,
when an answer might be expected from thence ?
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he felt no manner
of difficulty in stating to the Right Honourable
Gentleman and the House, that certain overtures'
bad been received by this Government from France
Those overtures had been thereupon sent to Vienna,
shout three days ago ; but he could not precisely say
sel.en an answer ruie,ht be expected to them.
Mr. POINISON BY said, he now wished to put
another qiiestion to the Noble Lord,, and it was a
qoestion ot still mese importance than any be had
hitherto pot. NV, re his Majesty's Ministers come to
the deterntin ttion of taking hostile steps against
Trance before the answer should arrive from Vienna
Lord CAS I'LEREAGH said, the Right fir).
neureble Gentlemau had at length framed a question
19 Which he could not in fairness expect a rem..
.ICILY AND ITALY. •
bled POISON BY said, while he was upon topics
connected with our foreign relaitens, lit had do objec-
tion to inform the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) of the
nature of the motion he intended to have brought for-
ward yesterday, had the House itself sat. He had
intended then to have moved for copies of all instruc-
eieits te Lord Wiliern Bentinck, respecting his con•
duct in Sicily and Italy, from 1811 to 1818 Inclusive.
Such bting the nature of the motion he was about to
make, hc certainly was desirous to knew to what
extent it was likely to be acceded to on the part of
.the Noble Li rd ?
Lord C AST 1. E REAGH said, if the Right Flo.
npurable Oeittleinatt had acquainted him with the
object ~t his motion, it might have saved some ex-
planation to hims.lf and to the House. He felt no
o' j ction ta ecqeiesce in the early part of it; but, at
the seine time, he certainly did not at present mean to
pledgc himself to the extent ot it.
* . Mr. PQWONBI said, it he understood the Nne
Lk Lord, he imagisiled that np serious objections did
eri3t to the =Pow.. Still he particularly wished te
ko nh- the! the Nubl. ;alrtl was
_inclined to corn.
Fly u ids the motion as far as it ratted. to Italy ?
Lord CASTL R EAGH seid, he knew no impe-
diment to givteg the kostruetione to Lord W. bey-
tiocka As fee as WOO to the insutiections in the Ita-
lia. Steeese tiee niece ter in . which his
v 4.5. w *.v.4 40'0 Cf them:

TALLEYRAND.II CORIIISTOSIMENCI.
Mr. WHITBREAD rose for the purpose of ad-
certaining if a certain extraordhiary letter, purport- I
ing to be written by Prince Talleyrand to the Noble
Lord opposite, which bad juat appeared is the pub'
tic Prints, was substantially true l Perhaps it mit
But be
turn out to be a translation of a translation.
only wanted to be set right.
Lord CASTLEREA.GH said, he never could
accede to the utility of putting such questions as the
Honourable Member was accustomed to ask..
When the proper time arrived for explanation, he
trusted lie should be fully prepared to meet it: till
that period came, ho wever,_ he must be excused the
! trouble Of following the Honourable Member step

by step.
Mr. WHITBREAD said,• after what bad jnst
fallen from the Noble Lord, lie no longer could
doubt but that the letter of Prince Talleyrand was
substantially true. When the period of explanation
came, however, would the Noble Lord then give all
'the information he declared himself as pledged to
give ? This was the true test.—( Calls of Order from
several parte.) —He knew, indeed, that this was not
the time to press a debate ; still it was impossible
not to urge questions of this kind, which, although
promised to be ultimately satisfied, were generally
blinked at the last. Would the Noble Lord afford
the explanation he promised, when the time came ?
or, would he evade it ? He was content to wait for
it, provided there was any chance of having such an
explanation, and of being satisfied with it.
nowt ESTISIATES IN THE COMMITTEE OP SUPPLY.
On die motion of Mr. VESY FITZGERALD,
the House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,
when the following sums were voted to his Majesty,
for the service of Ireland :
For the expenses of the Board of Works, £38,500.
For Stationery, dm in the Office of the Chief Secretary, and
other Offices of the Lord Lieutenant, and for Allowances to
Superannuated Clerks and Officers of the Castle, 5e14,788.
For Proclamations in the Dublin Gazette, and other Papers In
Ireland, £20,500.
To defray the Expenses of Criminal Prosecutions, £25,000.
To detray the Expenses of Apprehending Public Offenders,
X 2500.
For Expenses in the Port of Dublin, £1047.
Fur Support of Nonconforming Ministers £9552.
For Support of Seceding Minitters of the Synod of Ulster,
£2951.
For the Salaries of Lottery Officers' £2142.
For Works done in improving the Harbour of Howth,
X 50,000.
For Printing several Volumes of the Statutes of Ireland,
£3746.
l'o the Commissioners for Improving Linen and Hempen
Manufactures, to be applied a. they shalt see ht, .e2t,6:)0.
Fur Building Churches and Glebe Howes, and lot Purchasing
Glebe Lands, £lO ouo.
To the Truvees and Commissioner of-First Fruits, to eitab:c
tht nt to reywr Church.. and Chapels, .E4OOO.
'Fo the Commissioners of wide streets, £i9,lBn.
For the support of Protestant Charter Schools, £11,590.
Fur tar support of the Roman Catholiz Establish:mut at May-
nouth, J 9571
For defraying the expensea of the Commissioners of Charkable
Donations and B.Aue,ts, £6OO
Report of the Committee on Monday.
IN‘PARY Vat) THE STATE OP Till CIVIL LIST.
Mr. TIERNE.Y rose pursuant to a notice which
he had given on a Comer evening, to move for a
Committee to inquire into the state of the Civil List.
He id it would not be necessary for him to rake up
much of the time of the House on this su'ejeet, as
the Right H in. Gentleman opposite (the Chimer:llor
.of the Lae:ter:ger) did not mean to oppase having A
ConimitLec appointed, hut he would trespass Is little
on their time, in order tothew the great necessity there
was of a strict examination, and of vesting the Com-
mittee with full powers to that effect. He observed,
that the expences of the Civil List had of late years
exceeded the annual estimates to an extravagant de-
gree, that several Committees, he believed five, had
been appointtal since the year 1783 to examine into
it, none of which had the effect cf givink the House
and the country full infosmati3n on the subject, the
reason of which was. their powers of investigation
had been too limited; they had the annual estimates
on one side, and the different hems of expense on the
other, but they wanted that which alone would have
eitailled them to see how far all these expencei were
necessary, namely, xposter of examining persons,
papers, and records. ''rte want of this power in the
Committee, lie contended, would leave the Hattie
totally in the dark as to the necessity of this great at.
cumulation of debt on the Civil List, and they would
have annually to vote large sums of the public
money they knew not why not wherefore. After the
many ineffectual attempts of several Committees to I
make a regular estimate, it was Mr. Pitt who brought
it forward, theugh the suggestion was made when
bq was not in administration. It was then settled
that the annual Civil List revenue, after relieving it
from many hardens ahirh hung on it, should be
.€9'r9,000. In a short time this estimate was ne-
gl, eted, and the Crown sullered to exceed it by large
Annual sums withont any enquiry or miniinatioit. In
the year 1812 a new estimate WAS made, if he could
call that an estimate, which asLumed ihat it was ne-
cessary to be made on the average of the last seven
years; in this average were included the sums by
which the Civil List had exceeded the estimates of
each year, so that it was then made 5e1,120,000,'
which WAS an excess of 4123,000 above the foi neer
eiiimate.. • The House would then perceive, that in
every arrangement and every estimate- which was
' made, the sums were rising enormously, and yet
they would find, that notwithstanding the great sum
to which it was raise.] in 1012, the expellees had ex-
ceeded it in two years by no less a sum than
£,;26,t 00. This lie hoped would justify him i.t cal-
ling en the House to appoint a Committee, with full
powers to investigate the entire. lie would have the
interior of the Household examined, not with a view
of unnecessary curiosity, or creating ally disagreeable
jealousies, but with a view to examine into the truth
and see how many of those vast sums paid were ne-
cessary—(hear, hear,)—and also to see why it was
that the Court could not supoort itself within the
;pits of the annual estimate. If the House could not
accomplish this, they would in vain endeavour to
kid a remedy for that evil, which was acknowledged
to exist by every Committee that bad met on the
subject. He begged to be understood as not wishing
to restrict the comforts of the Crown, nothing was
farther from his intention ; but be thought he served
the Crown essentially when he went to give an esti-
mate for all that was necessary—(Hear, hear.,-
4n order to shew that the reduction of many of the
lexpences of tbe. Household waapracticable, he world
xefer the flouse to the espentes of the Lord Steward,
1 ill which t saving bad beat made within the last jest
_ .

of £515,000 if he were to have said then that this
was practicable, he would have been gravely con-
tradicted, yet the fact, was so, and he contended
could be so in many other departments of the
Household, if similar economy were used.—(liter. )
—At the same time that this decrease was made in
'the expences of the Lord Steward, an increase was
made in that of the Lord Chamberlain of £73,000,
and in the department of the Master of the Horse of
if334.,000 ; how this occurred he could not say, but
certain it was, that it spewed the necessity of strict
enquiry. He may he told that a sum of 30 or
840,000 was not worth making a motion about, but
he would -remind did House that it was not these
thirty and twenty thousands which made up the en;
tire of the sums they were called on to vote ;
hundreds, if neglected, would rise to thousands, and
thousands in the same way to millions, that this was
a time when the most rigid economy was necessary,
and that a single pound of the public money should
not be misapplied. lie would not trouble the House
by going into all the items of the Civil List expen-
diture; but asite was on the subject of unnealsary
expence, he would mention the enormous sums which
it cost Jiis country to support their Ambassadors at
foreign Courts. Of these great sums, he was con-
winced that every pound received could be accounted
for. He knew they were necessary to support the
way in which they lived • but he would ask, was it
necessary that they should live in this way f Was
it at all secessary to the dignity of this country, that
English AmbassadOrs should be the only persons
tsr loreigu Courts to pay double fur what they had,
and to keep a double retinue. 'lf this was necessary,
then, indeed, we might well be called on for all these
enormous sums. He also objected to our having an
Ambassador at Lisbon at a vast expellee, when the
Regent of Portugal was in the Brazil:, and had no
intention of leaving it fur Europe —He then went
on to shew the many other instances in which uuue-
cess.iry expcnce was incurred, and mentioned the
establishment at Windsor as a strong one. He said
the people of this country had been generous, almost
to prodigality, in the sums voted to the Royal Fa-
mily, and all they received in return was, a vast Ac-
cumulation of debt, above the highest estimates that
had been made out. He then concluded by moving
—" 'fit at a Committee be :appointed to take into con-
'sideratiun the Itepert laid before the House on the
10th of March last. by command of his Royal High-
ness the Pritice Regent, relative to the Civil List, and
to rcpert the saute as it shall appear to them, with
such ele.xteations as may seem necessary, and to
have the pu:wer of examining persons, papers, and
records, to that effect."
The CIIANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that the Right Huts. Gentleman had only antici-
pated him in his intention of having a Committee to
etamine into the state of the Civil List; yet he could
not agree with him in undervaluing, the exertions
made on this matter by former Committees; they, it
was true, had nut dime all that was necessary, but
they had done a great deal, and in that respect iv,re
entitled to praise. He also agreed with the Right
Hen. Gentleman, that the Crown should be sup-
ported by the generosity of the people, and that the
people should be protected against the prodigality of
the Crown; but he could not think. with him, that
the increased expences of the Crown within the last
few years were more than were abs•ilutely requiredll
by the circumstances of the times. Ile then went on
at consid:rabie h ngth to shew that the most part of
what had been expended above the annual estimate of
last year was already before the House, and the re-
mainder had gone for repairs at Ciatibourne Lo.lge,
and for entertainments_
_given to the Sovereigns who
visited this country. He could not see the necessity
of that minute investigation which the motion called
for; and concluded with moving, as an amend.
meet, that the words 46 with power to send for per-
sons, papers, and records," be left out of the motion.
Mr. WARD supported the original mottua, it was
well known that the Civil List had increased to an
enormous amount I and if the Committee had nut
full powers, he was confident that the Minister would
be obliged to conic down year atter year to that
House with applications to make good its arrears.
Above all things, he thought it necessary that an in-
quiry should be made into the l)roits of Admiralty.
He wished to call the attention of the House to the
enormous bills made out by the King's Proctor in the
condemnation of ail captures; and it no step was
taken to cure this great evil, it was his intention to
call the attention of the House to the subject.
Mr. BENNET conceived that the sort of Corn.
mittee recommended by the Chancellor of the Excite..
quer would be completely nugatory. The Members
of the Royal Earn ly received large sums of monev,
and there was no.hing like the splendour of a Cour t
kept up. The Honourable Gentleman next alluded
to the enormous and foolish exi,euces incurred :it the
tune of the Jubilee, which was a scene of vice and
profligacy, and was highly injurious to the middle
classes of people. He noticed the sum of £lB,OOO
advanced to Sir Henry Wellesley while at Madrid.
Mr. ROSE said, it was very true that the ex-
pences of the Civil List had increased lately to a very
great extent, but he saw no occasion to give a power
to a Committee to send for persons. Fur 16 years
the expence of the Civil List had increased only to
the amount of ,C1;0,0(X) a-year, and this might easily
be accounted for by the increased prices of all the
necessaries of life.
Sir W 1 LLI A M CONG liEVE assured the House
that the expences of the erections in the Parks did not
exceed the sutra of £e3,003, and no deduction was
made for the bt idge across the Canal.
Lord MILTON conceived the Committee would
be a mere dead letter if the powers moved for were
not granted.
Mr. II USKISSON fully agreed that it was abso-
lutely necessary to put a stop to those frequent appli•
hations to Parliament; and above all things that there
should be an end of =mistral payments. He jos-
tified the estahlishment of the ambaisy to Lisbon,
which was perfectly conformable. to the rank of the
Ambassador sent from the Court of Lisbon to this
country. He could state it as a fact, that at the time
tyre embassy went out, the Prince Regent of Por-
tugal was supposed to be on the point of his return
to Europe, he having given an intimation to us of
such an intention—but he changed his mind, and re-
itttighthteil
Borna.ziFls.rienlie w
Friend (Mr.as ass u. aciLisirmedin.gh)o, wietvtehre,
mthAlitnhedis i
Court was not likely to be soon established at Lisbon,
!Mold give u? his 1101aiona unless the Ovrtrunscnt
. •

should think fit to direct him to continue there
longer. It was admitted that a great part of the ex.
pence: of last year were occasioned by the rejoicings
which took place, and upon this a great deal of severity
bad been used.; but he would ask whether, after a
war of complete success—(A laugh)—it was not tit
that the people should be amused and made happy,
in a way which had been usual at the end of all for-
mer wars ? and the people were on this oceeaozi
amused at the cheapett possible expence.
Mr. BENNETT and Lord MILTON expleined.
Mr. HENRY MART IN opposed the Amendment,
as tending to take away the: only power the Committee
could p asess with any advantage to the country.
Mr. LONG desired Gentleneei to consider the it:-
Crease that 11. ii taken phea: In all the eecesserit sei
life, and then asked it any eatraordi:tat y expeese Lea
beea incurred, ',Oki' might not ba accouLted fur ?--
The Committee would hive pipers and &comer/v.
beeure them, and ii mote intcrination should be re-
quited, it would tie very easy to move in the Huey.
tor the attendance of any particular person they wise.
ed to examine.
Mr. CA I.CRAFT strong', owned the enctien.
It WAS necessary for the popul catty of the Crown. --
(Hear, h:.w.)--It was ne:ciary that the Croeer
abould be rie.pecteJ in the eyes ef the Public, seek!,
could not be d ate without a system of economy tha:
should i. feture prevent thee: 4.l.sgracctul iteplicazie...
to Perliernent.
Lord CASTLE REA C:I mild not cer e .:ez a
more iaquisiteriel ereceedine, or elle that ten.! ei .
throw more odium on the COVill, than the ..rut..
application now made to the House—an appi fee, ,
that could answer no one useful purpose. The lie:
must reeueect Mat the Crown had many yree. :e.,
given up its hereditary revenue, which was an it..
provable income; and he was eoaviaced it that re.e..
nue had continued in the !lanes et th • Crown to this
day, it would be so large as to ireclude the necessity
et any naZire applications. The income given te the
Crown in lien of the hereditary revenue had become
deficient in consequence of the progressive iucr 'ate
of all necessaries, and was it to be said that the
Crowe should be placed in a situation of diili.:cl:).
which no private, Gentleman was placed in ? The
increased expenditure of the Civil List might be
found in two departments: first, in that to which Lc
belonged ; and secondly, in the Lord Chamberlain's
department. As to Ministers abroad, and the
expenses they were supposed to have incurred, he
Assured the House, that the English Ministers et
futeisii Ceurte did not live in a selendour equal
t... tee' ...Lies:teed by the Ministers of Courts Lie-
lag a lower estinie,Ler in the world than ours.—
And as to the expence of receiving the foreign Sese-
reigns in this country, he assured the Heise, that
the expences i tared by the Emperor of Austria for
receiving the Monarchs at Vienna were much greater
than any we had incurred. h .:- the Noble Led
justified the expences incurred by Lee-I Aberdeen, on
the gieuad et teas being sent on an embassy which
mule it necessary for him to he constantly moving
from one place to another. As to the income sheet
to Mr. Canning on his etem,sy t,t Lisbon, it War Ile:
greeter than had generady I.eett ail ,weld to other Ata.
bessadors. The Right H in. Gentleman complained
a the practice of sending General Oilicers on vie
eions. He sees confident no men were more fit tar
such situatioes than those Officers, because they were
enabled to procure informeeen on military inetters
which inferior Officers never could procure. As to
the expellees of Sir Henry Wellesley, at Madrid, he
would state, that the whole of his personal expences
did not exceed £14,000 a-year. There Witt no Court
in Europe at which we had not a /*Glister at this
time; and these were the causes of the inCreAs-d ar•
rears on the Civil List. On the whole, the H a;.
Gentleman had made out no case to call for sect, .i:
inquiry as he demanded.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, if no case had leer
made out, the case might be altogether given up a-:
hopeless, and it would be as well to appoint nu Cum
mittee at all. As to the proposition et applying tr.
the House for the attendance or any individual, it we
absurd ; and it was childish to expect met the House
would agree to any such motion. The amendment
proposed was worse than purgatory, because it wile
be an escape for the Minister, by which he doeild Ft':
away from all enquiry on the Civil Let. ".'.'' .-: ' ik
Lord talked of the glorious times when the Kings ter
England had their hereditary revenues; but did ii:
not recollect that out of these revenues all the ex-
penses of the State were paid ; that when they want
ed inure money they came to Parliament ; no
that one King lost his head for pressing fur tot
much money ? if the expenses for entertaininE
the foreign Sovereigns were not so great as thus.
at Vienna, he would ask who paid those expense
but We people, whom the Noble Lord never seem
ed to take into his consideration ? An Honourable
Gentleman who once talked in that House of eco
nomy before he became Surveyor of Woods an..
Forests, now made very light of all the expenses it
curred by the Court ; the dispense of a bridge
nothing; a thousand pounds for horses was tic
in his mind. While talking of horses, he had .
a circuruetence which he must state to the House,
When General Blucher was in this country, be
A present to the Prince Regent of a very fine
the horse that had carried him through all
;reigns; this horse, which one would suppose
to be pampered and suffered to live at his ease,
now, as he understood, drawing a dung•
Hampton-Court.—(4 loud laugh.)
Mr. B. BATHURST, at some length,
the motion. Of this he was confident, that
revenue cat the Crown remained as in the
Charles 11. it would have accumulated tar
the demands now made upon it.
Mr: TIERNEY replied, turning the at
of Lord Castlereagh into ridicule.
Mr. W. SMITH wished the expences of i
try to be squared by its tesoutces.
Sir T. ACKLAND was in favour of the
O. any eues iin where a difference might
tween the crown and the pc:pie, tile 1,.;11'
not be wanting in the sils.n.trge of what
considered its especial duty, perticulirly
pe pie were likeiy to be called on fur new Silt
The House then divided, when there appeared'
Ars - 94
Notts - . 127

. Majority against the Motion .4—••••
The Motiva, at amended, was then agreed
Adjourueti at Chte Q'clocks till hiv.idal•

o{-44.11 ....-
Imp:Aim'
rs on p.),
lore fit tor
they we:e
ry matters
v. As to
laclrid, lie
1 expences
s no Court
ster At tl.is
treats. d ar.
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ivy suc~~ .t 3
had Ler,
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111 nu Cum
tc
lual, it WA:
tne Hourt
imendment
is it wotW
should ger
N . )1:
he Kings at
but did iu
s all the ex•
they want.
meat ; ano
ag fur tot
entertaiainE
eat as thus.
Ise expenst
never seem
lionourabl
ouse of ert)
Woods an.
expenses it
bridge WA
was nodun!
to had heat,
he House.—
he mad
y fine hoof
all his cam
ippose ouch
his ease, a.. 1
lung-cart
igth, resists.
that had es
the tiny: t:
tar boyoll'
e argumen'•
of the cog
F the inquir!
ight arise et.
~:use s 1"111"
hat in g.it b,
.ly
w sacrihces.
appeared--
94
127
SS
greed t)'