Star.
London, England, 1802-02-18 00:00:00

PARLMMENTARr PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, WEDNESDAY, FEB. i 7.

°mufti were finally heard relative to the Scisteh Appeal.
=tsam, Bart. and others, Higgins, Affignee of the
my ErMite, Re. namely, Mr. Row!lly (or the Re-
fisoodents, and Mr. Adam for the Appellants hi reply—After
which their Lordihips deferred their judgment upon the safe
SI this day fennight.
Lord PILIIAM prefented copies of the various accounts re-
ferred to In his Majelty's late Menage reipee.n.g the Rate of
the Civil Lift, which were ordered to Ikon the 'faille.

The various Bills before the Hook were forwarded in their
refpedive Rafe.—,After which the Houfe adjourned' till to-
morrow.

HOUSE OP COMMONS.
General CASCOT prefeated two Petitions from the Corpo
ration of Liverpool, for Bills to widen and improve the Erects,
and ereet new Docks there—which were frverally ordered to
be referred to a Connuittee to confider the Lime, and report
thereon.

The Ecl Bill was reds third time and paif.xf.
The Southern Whale FlOsa7 Bill was alto Mad a third time
and paffed.
Mr. AL/LIND/It brought up the Report of the Exchequer
Bills Bill—whieh was read and agreed to, and the Bill ordered
to be read a third time to-morrow.
Mr. Wt toncss prefented a Petition from the Veterinary
College, praying the aid of Parliament—iv:deli was ordered to
BL on the Table.
PETITIONS TOR PRIVATE RILLS.

Sir Jonu CA Lid% ND C a raid, that a great nunil,er of Petitions
for Private Bills were Rill behind, and were not, from variops
casks, likely to arrive within the period limited by the Houk
for the reception of Private Petitions. He therefore moved that
the time for receiving Petitions for Private Bills thould be =-
lamed till Friday fc'nnight.
Mr. N. VANE complained of the delay which took
tame in bringing up Petitions for Private Bills, and the bind-
ranee to public bullnefs, which increafed front enlarging the
time for their reception. If a &Misr motion was made in the
next Sefton of Parliament, he Mould, he Paid, require fume
Itrong ratan to be *Mimed before he gave his affent—The mo-
tion was then put and carried.
CIVIL LIST.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHPOSER." Sir,
I rife in purfnance of the notice I had the honour
of giving the Houfe, to move that the feveral Ac-
counts which were prefented to the Houfe in obe-
dience to his Majefty's command, relative to the
expenditure of the Civil Lill, be referred to a Selea
Committee. If I was to follow the praake ufually
adopted upon thefe occafions, 1 thould content
myfelf with making the fame fort of motion I made
on his Majefty's Me Page, when I merely moved it
&mild be referred to a Committee of Supply. But
it has occurred to me to be due to the Houfe—to
be due to the public—and to be due to his Majefty
himfelf, that the circumftances which have occa-
Boned fuch an accumulation of debt as appears
upon thefe Accounts, timid be fully inveßigated
and laid before the Houfe; as, Sir, I am thoroughly
convinced, if it lhould be the pleaftne of the Houfe
to appoint the Committee, the refult will convince
every Member that the caufes which have (vett-
Mined this accumulation were in a great degree
unavoidable ; and that no fentiment will exilt in
the mind of any one Member, as to the debt, but
that of regret for the circumftances which have
operated HI producing it. It will be recolleded
that fixteen years have now elapfed fince the ar-
rangements and fchedules were i.:ade with refe-
rence to the various branches of the Civil Lill, to
be provided for by Parliament. Let the Houfe
recoiled what has been the operation of the nume-
rous articles of expenditure of which that Civil Lilt
is compared. Let Gentlemen advert to their own
domethc concerns—let them look to that which
mull have affeaed thofe concerns in the courfe of
fueh a period, and they will not be at a lots to ac-
count for a very large portion of that deb!, the
particulars of which are fubmitted to the Houfe in
the Accounts prefented by order of his Majefty.—
Sir, it would be inconfillent with the purpofe for
which the Committee is to be appointed, if I was
now to enter into an enumeration of the receipts or
expenditure of the Civil Lift. All I with is, that the
Houfe Ibould go to the inquiry—that it thould go
to the Committee without any predi fpofiti on—with-
out any preconceived opinion with refped to the
nature of the debt, or the circumflances which have
led to its accumulation. lam defirous of ahftain-

ing, at all events, from interrupting in any degree
what I unit will be the mode adopted with regard
to the Accounts. Under thefe circumflances lam

willing, and I think no °Nation can be made on
the part of any Member, to defer for the prefent
any further obfervations. If the Committeelhould
be appointed then, when the report than have been
made, and fuch an interval allowed as Gentlemen
may defire, I fhould with that it ihould be taken
into confideration, and that the difcuffion fhould
be as minute and ample, as the importance of the
fubjed undoubtedly requires. At prefent I move,
athat a Committee be appointed to take into con-
fideration the feveral Accounts which were prefent-
ed yefierday by Mr. Chancellor of the Exchequer,
by his Majefiy's command, relating to the expen-
diture of the Civil Lift; and that the faid Com-
mittee do examine and report the fame as they may
appear to them, together with their obfervations
to the Houfe."
Mr. THOMAS MANNERS SUTTON...-$4 I hope, Sir,
it will not be deemed improper in me to (fate to
the Houfe a .eircumllance relative to the affairs of
his Royal Highnefs the Prince of Wales, which
appears to me, in confegnence of what paled in
the Houfe yefierday, necelfary to be mentioned.
It is probably well known to every Member of this
Houk, that the revenues of the Duchy of Corn-
wall are a part of the revenues of the Crown, till
the birth of the eldelt Son of the King and that
on the birth of fuch eldeß Son, the title becomes
immediately veiled in him as proprietor of the
Duchy, with all the rights, immunities, and pri-
vileges•belonging to the fame. Of courfe tbefe re-
venues are a fund to be fecured during the mino-
rity of the Prince of Wales for his benefit. In the
prefent insane thefe funds were not fo applied,
but they were applied to the ferviceof Government
;Relwere applied in aid of the civil Lift, which
ieve been increafed from other (naives if
thefe funds had not exilled. Therefore in taking
the account, though it might be faid to be a quer-
tion between his Majefty and the Prince of Wales,
yet in fad, and in fubftance and reality, the quer-
bop ariks between the Prince of Wales and the
Public. The Public have received that revenue
which will ON PiVerlT gibe rrinco of Walci, if

that could be a queaine betufaen his Malta), and
the Prince of Wales, I know his Highnefs would
readily content to forego much of his right—he
would facrifice any thing to the feelings of Ma-
jelly on fuch a fubjeft. Sir, it has been my for-
tune to exprefs the fentiments of his Royal High-
nets on a former occafion. The Houfe may reit
affured, that what I have Rated are the genuine
fentiments of the Prince of Wales ; but, Sir, this
is certainly not a quellion between hisMajefty and
his Royal Highnefs—it is a claim he has on the
Public, for that which the Public have received
and not accounted for. When I Rate that the
Prince of Wales has an undoubted right to the
Dukedom of Cornwall, I Rate it not on my own
opinion; but I (peak from the concurrent teßimony
of many of the moft eminent men in the profeflion
of the law . and particularly of one of the moft
experienced and learned men at the Bar, I mean
Mr. Mansfield, who, in concurrence with another
Gentleman of equal celebrity, has given the molt
decided opinion in favour of the right. lam aware
that fome years ago, when this queflion was likely
to be agitated, two very high and diftinguithed
perfons exprefred doubts as to the right ; but if the
fame Rate of fates had been laid before them, as
were laid before the learned Gentleman to whom
I have alluded, and my learned Frieod on my
left hand, they would not, I am perfitaded, have
expreffed any doubt as to the right of the Prince
of Wales to the revenue of his own property. The
amount of this revenue, from ths year 1762, the
period of the birth of the Prince of Wales, to the
year 178 t, when his Royal Highnefs came of age,
is little fhort of 400,0001. Calculating this fund,
with the rate of intereft it would have made, if
invelled in Government or Real Security, to the
prefent day, it would have amounted upon a fair
eftimation to 900,0001. I do not, Sir, mean to
Pay, that tome deduaion fhould not he made on
account of the expences of the Prince of Wales
during his minority—for this I therefore deduct
t 2,0001. a year, granted out of the Civil Lift, and
16,0001. more provided out of his Majefty's Privy
IPurfe. Whether the revenues of the Duchy of
ICornwall were applicable to the Prince of Wales
as an Eflablifhment for him till the year 1781 or
not, yet giving credit for the dedueion and the al-
lowance by his Majefty, there would Rill remain
due to his Highnefs, for the refidue of the revenue
of his Duchy, a fum of at leaft between fix and
700,0001. Now, Sir, in the feveral provifions made
for the eflablifkment of the Prince of Wales, as
Heir Apparent to the Crown, this was never taken
into confederation, and I am convinced it never
could hove been confidered that any of the Sup-
plies voted by the Houfe to His Royal Highnefs,
were intended as a fatisfaeion in lieu of the reve-
nue of the Duchy of Cornwall. If I am not in
an error, the account will liana thus: In the year
1781, there was a fum of 60,0001. voted to de-
fray thofe expences which. occur to every one in
the outfet of life, and naturally to be expetted
with regard to the Heir Apparent. In the year
1787, there was a further fum of 160,0001. and
zo,OOOL for completing Carlton Haute. In the
year 1795 there was a fum of ao,oool. granted for
the purpofe of defraying the expences of the mar-
riage of his Highnefs with the Princefs Caroline.
The whole of this amounts to 260,0001. and with
refpeet to thofe items which relate to Carhop
Houfe, the money ought not to be confidered as
fpent by the.Princ: of Wales, as it was laid out in
the completion of a building in which the public
has an intereft. This will reduce the font received
by his Royal Highnefs to about 240,0001. a fum
very fhort of what he is entitled to. I have cer-
tainly not taken into this calculation the annual
income voted by Parliament to the Prince of
Wales. It would be very unreafonable, indeed,
that the income of his Royal Highnefs fhould be
diminifhect, becaufe he happens to be a creditor of
'the Public. If we compare the income granted
to the prefent Heir Apparent to the Clown, with
that which was allotted by Parliament to his pre-
decefror, the father of his Majefty, it will be found
that reference to the different periods, the
amount is nearly the fame. In the year 1742, the
turn of too.oool. a year was granted to his Royal
Highnefs Frederick, Prince of Wales. He was
then only 24 years of age, and it was Rated that
an income to filch an extent was not entirely ne-
ceffary to defray his expences, but to enable him
to fupport his rank and dignity. The income to
the prefent Prince of Wales was, in the year 1783,
50,0001. In 1787 it was increafed to 60,0001. and
in 1795 to 1 toaaool. of which 70,0001. a year was
appropriated by Aft of Parliament to the liquida-
tion of his debts. Every one knows how much
his Royal Highnefs has reduced every expence in
his eflablifhment. I think, when I Itatewhat has
been and is the income of the prefent Prince of
Wales, and compare it with what was the income
of his Grandfather, Prince Frederic—when I Rate
that in the year 1742, too,oool. was not thought
too much for thofe necefraries and luxuries which
a Prince has a right to expel ; it will not, I am
Pure, be conceived by any one, that the income of
his Royal Highnefs has been increafed on account
of any debt fuppofed to be due to his Highziefs
from the Public. I hope, Sir, in making this
Itatement, I have not Paid any thing that for a
moment may excite an idea his Royal Highnefs
has authorifed me to exprefs on his part any &-
appointment or diratisfaeion, or that he means
to Make the leaft complaint of the proceedings of
Parliament with regard to him : on the contrary,
I know his Royal Highnefs feels impreffed with
gratitud: for the obligations be has to this Houfe.
I am perfuaded he is fatisfied that whenever his
intereft has been the fulled of deliberation, the
Houfe has difcharged its duty to the Public and
to himfelf. nave been anxious to Rate thus much,
' that the Houfe and the Public fhould be in full
poffeflion of the fa& It is important to the Prince
of Wales the public fhould know, that great as are
the expences impofed on him by his high rank
and illuftrious fituation, they have not fallen
heavy on the people of the country, or added to
the diftrefs and difficulty of the times. Looking,
Sir, to the accounts, and confidering them in the
point of view I have fubrnittad them to the Houle,
I am convinced it will be found his Royal High-
ac tli has not received mute than he is cackled tot

' -S

bat that a confitlerable balance h due in his fa-
'emir, and that he is ,the creditor, and not the ,
debtor of the public. I have been defirons of re-
moving any wrong, impretlioa which might have
been entertained with refpea to that illuftrious
perfonage, in whofe honour and welfare every ,
Member and every well.affeaed man in the king-
dom, (a :opera! cry of Hear! Hear!) every indivi-
dual to whomlhe prefervation of the prefent Go-
vernment and Conftitution is dear, is fo deeply
interefted. I hope my zeal and anxiety with re-
gard to the Prince, has not been the occafion either
of my rnifreprefenting or over.ftating any part of
the fubjea. I hope I have laid nothing that has
the remoteß tendency either to embarrafs the pre-
fent Government, or to relied upon the condua of
the former. If I have, Ihave done that, which I can
affure the Houfe is as much contrary to the deftre
of his Royal Highnefs as to my own willies. With
refpea to the prefent Government, I have nothing
to propofe as applicable to the claims of his Royal
Highnefs : I thould be averfe to taking any Rep
that might have the effea of deranging any plan
his Maietty's Minifters may have adopted; and
with regard to the former Government, it would,
indeed be painful to me, if in the difeharge of my
duty I should be compelled to fay any thing inju- ;
rious to my Right Hoe. Friend who has lately
quitted the government of the country, and for
whofe public and private charaCter I have, in
common with every other Member in the HoUfe,
the higheß refpea and efteem. As to the rights
of the Prince of Wales to the Revenues of the
Dukedom of Cornwall, though they unqueftion-,ably ezift, yet I admit it is not the both:refs of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer to alert them. If
the Houfe (hall think proper at any time further
to inveftigate this matter, it will be my duty, as it
undoubtedly is my molt anxious with, to afford
every alfillance in my power : but the Houfe will
forgive me for obferving, that I think a motion
upon fuch a fubjea would come with more pro-
priety from tome Gentleman who is better known ,
to the Houfe than I have the honour to be. I am
perfealy fatisfied, when fuch a motion (hall occur,
this Houfe will condo& itfelf with propriety and
impartiality in the inveftigation of the jolt claims
of the Prince of Wales ; and with that regard and
attention which is due to a quellion fo materi-
ally affeaing the rights of his Royal Highnefs,
and the intereft, the juftice, and the honour of
the public."
Mr. Fox raid, be mould trouble the Houfe with
but a very few words upon this fnbjeet, and he
thought the Houfe were much obliged to the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman who had introduced a
part of the fubjelt, for the very clear and very
able manner in which he had Rated it ; that is to
fay, the claims of his Royal Highnefs the Prince
of Wales. He agreed entirely with the Learned
Gentleman in almolt every word that had fallen
from him upon that fubjea, and every thing which
he Rated as connected with it ; and he did moll tin-
cerely hope the Houle would take up the matter
which had been that day opened by that Hon. and
Learned Gentleman. He approved highly of the
prudence and the wifdom of Rating it in the way
which it had been Rated: he agreed with the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman, that neither the Houle
itfelf, nor any perfon, either in the former Admi-
niftration, perhaps, nor in the prefent Admini-
ftration, could be faid to be aridly to blame upon
this occafion. He certainly, however, agree&
with the Learned Gentleman even in the prudence
of not agitating the queftion, whether any perfon
was to blame or not. He agreed alto with the
Learned Gentleman in his ftatement of the claims
of his Royal Highnefs never baring been effectual-
ly alerted; that they never were effeaually alerted
was moll true, but as he had had the honour of
Rating more than once his fentiments upon this
fubjea, he thought it due from him to the Houfe
—he thought it due from him to himfelf, to re-
peat what he had formerly faid upon that occafion,
namely, that it was a fubjeCt well worth the fe-
rieus attention of-that Houfe. He had reviewed
that opinion, and the refult of his lo reviewing it
was a confirmation of that opinion : but, becaufe
he did moll heartily with to fee the claims of his
Royal Highnefs effeaually alerted, or at leall af-
ferted in a manner more likely to be effeaual, than
he could hope to accompli, he had abftained
from making any propofition on that fubjea. He
hoped, however, the Hon. and Learned Gentle-
man would have Tome propofition to Rate; he al:
ledged, indeed, it would come with more proprie-
ty from any other perfon than himfelf; it was that
part of the Speech of the Learned Gentleman,
and the only part of his Speech from which be
differed. Since his Royal Highnefs had confide.
ruble claims, be could not help thinking that his
Royal Highnefs could not have that fubjea put in
a better train or courfe, than that of having it
confidered by the Houfe of Commons. As on
former occafions, application had been made for
the payment of his debts, or the increafe of his
income, it was .his opinion there was great hard-
flip in the cafe of a perfon of Each high rank hav-
ing his debts Rated in that Houfe; liable, as (itch
a statement mutt be, to all the comments which
were made on fueh debts, and liable alto to the
opinions of that Hoare, which, although correaly
formed, yet, under which an opinion had prevail-
ed with a great part of the public, that the
Houfe was granting to his Royal Highnefs tome-
thing to which he was not entitled, whereas in
fag, his Royal Highnefs was entitled to more than
was granted. The Learned Gentleman faid, there
was no complaint made upon the fubje& by his
Royal Higbnefs ; should the Prince be difpofed to
complain, Mr. Fox faid there was no individual
of whom he had a greater right to complain than
of.himfelf (Mr. Fox). In this he alluded to the
lag arrangements which were made for the pay-
ment of the Debts of the Prince of Wales, when
75,000 l was deduited out of tao,oool.per annum
for their liquidation. He had concurred in that
meafure, although he felt the feverity of it, and
he might fay, felt it perhaps more than Tome indi-
vidnaL might do, as, betides the efteem and re-
fpea he had for his Royal Hilinefs, as Heir Ap-
parent to the Throne, he felt much regard and
affeetion for him, from an early period of his life,'
from cirounllanZa which rocurcd him the ho-

now of the aeqtaintanet of that illuftrions Prince.
He thought the 120,00e1. allowed to his Royal
Highnefs, by no means too great a pi-evil-ion for a
Prince of Wales. The Learned Gentleman Lid,
that Frederick Prince of Wales, Grand-father to
his Royal Highnefs, in year 1742, had 100,0001.
per annum, which, cenfidering the difference of
times and the value of money between the two pe-
riods, Was certainly a greater allowance to the for-
mer than to his prefent Royal Highnefs; but there
was another mode of confidering the income of
his Royal Highnefs, and that was, by corn paring
it to the increafe of the Civil Lift. Now, Dippo?.
ing that Isitt,oool. was a liberal allowance—cer-
tainly not an extravagant allowance, it Mould be
remembered that Thoool. of that (urn was appro
priated for the payment of his debts. Upon that
ground, he thought the provifion too (mall for
the fupport of his Royal Highnefs, and Ibould like
to have that fum increafed by the liberality of
Parliament. Why then did he concur in the vote
for appropriating Thoool. out of 120,0001. for the
payment of the debts ? Not becaufe he thought
the remaining ftnn fufficient to fupport his Royal
Highnefs in his dignity and Rate, but becaufe his
Royal Highnefs had previoufly declared that he
would be fatisfied with it. He thought it was not
confiftent with the honour of that Prince, to take
more after that declaration ; but if upon the ac-
counts now before the Honk, it fhould be found
that every argument which was then ufed againft
paying the debts of his Royal Highnefs other-
wife than out of his Income, fuch arguments
malt apply as ftrongly, and indeed, more ftrongly
to the Civil Lift, he fhould in that cafe feel
se difficulty in applying fuch arguments to the
Civil Lill, when that fubjed fhould come for-
ward for di/car:mi.—Upon the (tieftion itfelf he
lhould fay but a few words, time he believed
the Houle was difpofed to refer k to a Committee
of Supply, and indeed he did not fee how the
Houle could well do otherwife ; mere refped to
his Majefly, even fuppofing that the objed of it
was unfit to be granted, demanded that tooth ;
bat this matter demanded a particular inrelliga.
Lion, and he was very defirous to be underftood
not to convey even a momentary idea that he
fhould give a vote in favour of the reque ft contained
in thatlleffitge. He fhould at prefent Rate only
general principles, which, in his mind, were ex-
tremely important for the Houfe to attend to
was a material circumftance in the hiftory of this
Country, that ever fince the Revolution its policy
and pmetice had been, on the accelfion of every
Prince to the Throne, to grant a Civil Lift for life.
He knew throe perfons thought an annual Vote
would be better : doubts had been entertained ou
this Cubic& by very refpeetable. perfons : he was
not then going to argue upon that fubje'l, nor was
it neceffary fo to argue. He had conlidered
I however, and he had formed an opinion upon it,
after as much attention as,he was ever able to give
to any fubjeft whatever. The refult of that men•
tion was, that he was of opinion our anceftors
aped wifely in granting a fum to the Reigning
Princes for the Civil Liii for lift, and of courfe be
was of opinion we ought to follow that courfe ;
but if circumflances which followed the granting
of fuels a provifion for life were made a ground
for granting a further provifion, it then could not
be laid, with propriety, that it was a limited provi.
fion for it could not be a limited provifion, if it
was liable to alter in its amount by any circuits.
fiances whatever. This wog :in opinion which he
did not believe he fhould alter, notwithftanding
the great refpeetability of thole who entertained
a contrary fentiment. If Parliament thought it-
fell, at the time of granting a Civil Lift, unable to
judge what the Civil Lift afterwards ought to be,
thatwas a reafon againft voting any permanent fum
whatever for fuch Civil Lift ; and the Houfe fbould
confider this point, that if thofc circumftances, in-
Read of turning out unfavourably to the amount
of the Civil Lift, might be on the other fide ; that
is, that the Civil Litt might be too ample, there
would be no poffible means of reducing fuch a
Civil Lift, and therefore it appeared to him to be
of the offence of that principle, by which a
limited Civil Lift could be guided, that the (um
fhould be fixed and certain; and it fhould be
taken as a general principle, after fuch Civil
Lift was voted, that it fhould be deemed and held
fuAlcient for aU the purpofes of a Civil Lift.—
The Houfe Mould remember that the principle of
limitation goes upon this ground, that the expences
fhall be made to fuit the income, not the income
to fuit the expences; but by there applications to
augment the Civil Lift, all the alterations were
made on one fide, that is, the expences were in.
created, and therefore the income was ealarged;
but fhould eircumflances be ever fo favourable for
the redudion of expenditure, there never could be
any redudion of the Civil Lift. If the Civil
Lift was voted from year to year, among other
Idifadvantages which would accrue, there would be
this—Suppofe that the politics of this country were
to take the turn they did in the reign of King Wil-
liam or Cbieen Anne;—he did not know whether
he might not add, the reign, or part of the reign
of Geo. the Firft—but he would now confine him.
Pelf to the reigns of King William and teen Anne
—of King William for enhance, who offen wanted
money for the execution of plans, not indeed in
their nature adverfe to the interefts of this country,
but plans in which this nation was not immediately
or neceffarilyconcerned. Suppofe, that for the pin--
pore of carrying on fuch plans, the King had come
to the Houfe of Commons, for money, nr, that he
wanted an increafe of the Civil Lill—he might
have gone either to the Tories or the Whigs to ac•
compfilla his purpofe. The queftion, then, would
be, which would pay him the mat money, and the
one or the other would thus become his favourite
party, as k tranfcended the other in a lava vote
of the public wealth. This would be eftablifhing,
between two parties, a competition for the Ro)
favour, and which was always to be decided in
favour of the party who would bellow the moll
money—a competition which would be extremely
injurious to the Public Weal. It was, therefore,
for this, as well as for many other reafons, which
he felt the force of, but which he fhould not now
endeavour to enumerate—the fyftem of making t I: 7
civil Lift continue for, the life of the reigniq

Prince, was infinitely preferable to that of an an.
null vote. But did this principle apply ti the pay.
/pent of debts ?—He thought it did. The other
wraftice, namely, that of allowing certain rums,
from time to time, to difcharge arrears of debts,
bad this bad effea :—it necefarily circumfcrib.
ed the Royal choice in its Political Servants;—
when this praaice prevailed, thh King necelfarily
looked for Minifters, not with any view of their
capacity, not with a view to their fititation in the
public efienn, or even his own opinion of them,
but with a view who would vote him molt mo-
ney. This was injurious to the Conftitution of
this country; injurious to the popular branch of
it; but it was injurious in another way—it was
injurious to the Crown by making it dependent
upon Parliament, that is, improperly dependent
on Parliament, by narrowing its choice of political
fervants; for in popular language, the Crown, in
a given fenfe, which he need not explain, always
was, and always &mild be, dependent on Parlia-
ment. It made therefore the Crown improperly
dependent upon Parliament, and alto made Par-
liament dependentopon the Crown. By this fyflem
of paying off debts as they may accumulate, a
Prince was put into a fituation in which he was
tempted to enter into great expence, for the de-
fraying of which he was afterwards to be depen-
dent on Parliament—a dependence which no
King ought to feel. Every King in England, '
and every Prince, ought to feel dependence
upon Parliament in the fupport of his public
imeafures, which were properly to be called his ,
politics, but not in the payment of hit debts, '
which are properly hts private concerns. He fhould
therefore fay, that with regard to the Civil Lift,
and the payment of debts of all denominations '
with regard to Princes, an allowance ought to be
Made for them at once, fo that there fhould not
occur any neceffity of a fecond application, be.
tank this was efential to that independence which
was fo defirable in a Sovereign or Prince. He
thought it neceffary to fay this in the prefent Rage
of the proceeding, and to add, that Parliament
would be guilty of great injuftice indeed, if it ap-
plied fo much feventy of principle, as it certainly
did, in providing, out of his Royal Highnefs's in-
come, a fund for the payment of his debts, and did
not apply the fame principle to the arrears of
the Civil Lill; but upon this fubjea he fhould
give his opinion More at large hereafter : And
lie trufted alfo, that as the iiibjca of the Civil
Lift Was to be difcured, that of the affairs of
his Royal Highnefs fhould alto be inveftigated ;
for he knew of no principle that could ap-
ply to the one without applying alto to the othcr.
i—lie took fothe blame to himfelf for not having,
while hewas in Adminiftradon in riSt, brought
forward d plan that might finally arrange the
concerns of his Royal Highnefs ; but he could
not help obfe'rving, that if this application for aid
to the Civil Lift was acceded to, and the concerns
of his Royal Highnefs pallid over unnoticed, it
would be neither tuft towards his Royal Highnefs,
bonoorable to the Houfe, nor creditable to the
Country. He thought that a full account ought to
be taken of the concerns of the Duchy of Corn.
wall. That if the debts of the Civil Lift ought to
be paid, thofe of his Royal Highnefs ought to be
paid alto ; the leaning, however, of his mipd was,
that this application for aid to the Civil Lift ought
not to be acceded to—it was a queftion material
to be fettled. He thought it neceffary to fay thus
Much in the precut Rage of this bufinefs. He
could not objea to this Motion, becanfe it went on.
ly to put the fubjea in a courfe of inquiry, and
left it open to difcuffion hereafter.
Mr. Parr.—" I mean to trouble the'Houfe bat
with very few words. After this claim of his Royal
Hight.fs has been Rated in the manner it has, and
with fo much propriety and ability, it does be-
come the honour of the Houfe that Come proper
;mode &odd be adopted for putting it in a courfe
of inquiry. I fhould think it improper to offer an
opinion till I have heard every thing that can be
offered upon the fubjea. Whatever preconceived
opinion I may have formed in confequence of its
having formerly been my duty to look into the
fubjea, I fhould feel it improper to Rate that opi-
nion till the queftion is fairly difeuffed.—With re-
!pea
to the other part of the fublea, I agree with
the Hon. Gentleman oppofite me in one thing only,
that the bell time for difculfing the propriety of
paying the debt, or augmenting the amount of the
Civil Lift, will be when the Houfe !hall be enabled
to form a judgment as to the circumftances by
which the debt has been created. Till then lam
not prepared as a Member of Parliament to give
any opinion other than an hypothetical one ; yet I
mull fay that the grant of a Civil LiR for life, is that
which is beyond comparifon to be preferred to any
other—it is a praaice ftrengthened by example, and
could not be broke into without violating the Con-
ditution of the country. I mutt enter my proteft
at once to fo grange a doarioe as that Parliament,
by granting at the commencement of a reign a
Civil Lill Eftablilhment,deprives itfelf of the power
of augmenting its amount, if the increafed rate of
expence, which attaches to the Crown as well as
the nicaneft fubjea, ihould require fuch an aug- '
mentation. I will never admit that Parliament
can abridge its inherent power of increafing that
grant, which is bellowed not more for the gratifi-
cation of the Sovereign than for the fervice of the
public—the fupport of the different departments of
State, and the maintenance of that fpl -mdour which
is not only effential, but is the vital principle infe-
ratably conneaed with the exillence of a Monar-
chical form of Government. I therefore appre-
hend I Shall differ widely from the Hon. Gentle-
man on this part of the fubjea. With regard to
the other, refpeeing the claim of his Royal High-
nets, I agree with him that it ought to be brought
to an ultitnate decifion I and I rejoice that my
Learned Friend has taken the Rep he has to intro.'
duce it to the confideration of the Honk."
Mr. Nicuota. obferved, that his Majelly, by a
certain A6l of Parliament, had been enabled to
fell fume of the polTeßions belonging to the Prince
of Wales, and which were Rated as fuch in the Aft
of Parliament ; and the money received for them
was certainly the property of the Prince of Wales.
It was the duty of Parliament to fecnre and gua-
rantee this property to his Royal Highnefs. The

. " •

Hon. Member then (rioted forme iffages from
our hillory, to thew that Parliament h.td interfered
formerly on Cmilar occafions, and examined into
the application of money received for lands full by
the Crown. When the papers came to be dill
culled before the Houfe, he Ihould deliver his fenti-
ments more fully on this fubjeft—at prefent he had
no motion to make. The Motion was agreed to.
The CHANCILLOR of the EXCH Pl:ty Ell moved,
that the Committee to be appointed fliould contill
of twenty-one. Agreed to—and he accordingly
propofed the following Members, who were ap-
pointed :
Mr. Brane Mr. Monier Mr. Burdon
Sir William Scott Mr. Long Sir James Pulteney
Mr. Wilberforce Mr. Baker Mr. Sam. Thornton
M. I. H. Brown Sir Robert Buxton Mr. Hobhoufe
Lord Arden Mr. Billiton Mr. French
Mr. Crewe Mr. Stanley Mr. N. Vanfittart
Lord Calliereagb Lord Loraine
On the Motion of Lord Hawkeibury the name of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer was added to the
Committee.

Ordered that the Committee do fit to•morrow
in the Speaker's Chamber—that they have the
ufual powers—that they do continue to fit not-
withtlanding the adjournments of the Houfe—and
that five Members do form a quorum.

•MERICAK TREATY.

The Honfe refolved itfeifint4;a Committee on
the American Treaty Bill.
Mr. VAN S I TTA IT Paid, that communications hav-
ing been received from America that the Congrefs
had refolved to repeal the Countervailing Duties
impofed on all Britith Goods by the Aas of the
American Legiflature, in the year 1787, it was
thought but juft and fair to repeal thole Counter.
vailing Duties which, by the Aa of 1794, Par-
liament had impofed on American goods imported
into this country—or rather to allow his Majefty
to do fo as loon as official intelligence Should be
received of the completion of the promifed pur-
pofe of the American Congrefs. He therefore
moved, That the Chairman thonld be inftrueed to
move the Houfe for leave to bring in a Bill to
empower his Majefty to caufe the Duties impofed
by the Paid Ail to ceafe, or to be fufpcnded, under
certain circumftances.—Agreed to.
The Horde refumed, and the Report of the
Commit* was ordered to be received to-morrow.
Adjourned.