Star.
London, England, 1831-04-20 00:00:00

tins had been adopted by our ancestors 'se they considered necessary.
The supporters of the bill asked for nothing but what was practicable
in experience. Now that the daii)layttizrnals were admitted to be the ar-
bitrators between contending and that the schoolmaster was
considered the greatest to political error, it was too much
for us to be told thus of window of our once tors.—(Hear,
bear.) The bon. member concleded a long and energetic speech by
declaring himself, in most unqualified terms, convinced of the justness
and necessity of the bill, and his determination to support it even at the
expense of his own power. The boa. member was loudly sheered when
he sat down.
Sir G. WARR ENDER supported the amendment of General Gas-
eoyne. He could not support a measure to enlarge the representation
of Scotland at the expense of spoliation of England. He was opposed
to the ministerial measure, opposed to disfranchisement, but his oppo-
sition would ever be open I'M manly, and he would never seek by any
oblique motion to obtain the overthrow of the Bill. (Cheers.) He
could not consent to Scotland being for ever limited to a number of re-
presentatives, which exceeded Cornwall by only one member. Her
towns had already vastly increased in population since the Union ; they
were now increasing in a ratio greater than ever. Her revenues which
at the time of the Union was only 120.0001. had undergone an equal
augmentation. Under these circumstances, he thought that the amend-
ment did not do justice to Scotland ; he should oppose it, and in so
doing he felt that he discharged his duty.
Mr. WYNN said, that before they resolved on a change of Con.
stitution they should consider, not what might be the partial defects
of the Constitution they now possessed, but its general operation and
result. Let them compare the condition of this country with the rest
of Europe, and see whether any nation had enjoyed for a century and
a half so much of internal tranquillity, of individual and public li-
berty. He did not deny that there was excitement in the country, but
he had seen similar excitement before, and had always found It to dis-
appear in the long run, before the confidence inspired by that Hou4.
He proceeded to say, that he regretted that the population should have
been taken as the sole principle which regulated either the withdraw-
ing or the giantit.g of the elective franchise. He regretted especially
that it should rest on a census taken ten years since, when they were
to have, within a few weeks, another census much more accurate. If
population was the principle, it should at least be adhered to. They
should not give a double representation to the name constituency, as in
the case of Glamorganshire, when compared to other counties in
Wales. He could cite many other instances where the representation
was out of proportion to the population. Hs thought that besides the
total number of inhabitants which a borough might contain, thecizi
her of voters which it would obtain under the present measure, .
be considered. (Hear.) He denied that corruption was confined to
the lowest crders. If he looked to Aylesbury and Retford, be
found the corruption to exist among the householders, among those on
whom the present measure conferred the franchise..—;Hear, hear.)—
As to the detail. of the Bill, he objected especially to the mode of re-
gistration. which would render it extremely difficult to impugn the title
of any candidate to the franchise. The leaseholder was not to be an
elector until two years after the renewal of his lease. Under the pre-
sent duration of leases, he would be deprived of his vote for six years
out of twenty-seven. He could not join in the general outcry against
the close boroughs. He observed in general more talent among their
representatives than among the county members. The present Bill
would exclude all those whose claims rested on power of reflection,
experience, and industry, but who were wanting in that brilliancy of
eloquence which fascinated the multitude. If the number of close ho.
roughs was so large, the elective franchise extended to the surrounding
districts would be as efficacious, though a much less harsh remedy,
than disfranchisement. With respect to the amendment of the Gallant
General, he considered the proposed diminution in the English mem-
bets contrary to the Act of Union. Ireland bad certainly greatly in-
creased in population, wealth, and intelligence ; but England had
increased also. The changes in the proportion of members would be
endless, If that proportion was made to depend on a nice calculation of
the amount of wealth and population. A new manufacturing place
sprang up each year in one of the three kingdom, and the ba6nce
would be as often destroyed. lie should support the amendment.
Sir G. CLERK said he should support the resolution, as assuring to
Scotland that increase in the number of representatives which she de.
sired, and the prospect of which made her receive with favour the mi•
nisterial measure. He apprehended that if England was reduced in her
present number of representatives, the English members, when the
Scotch Bill came to be considered, would turn round upon them, and
call upon Scotland for a proportionate reduction. Glasgow and the
other populous towns would be allowed to be represented only at the
expense of the franchise of the less considerable places. An honourable
member had declared that he should vote against the resolution, adding,
in the same breath, that he was opposed to the disfranchieement of the
English boroughs. Now, to mere that was virtually to support the
resolution (hear). He would be very willing to give a greater number
of representatives to Scotland, but he could see no reason for redwing
the number of members for England, and should therefore vote for the
motion of the gallant general.
Sir JOHN MALCOLM thought that if the nomination bong*
afforded the means for men who had served their country ahead es.
tering that house on their return home, they should not be tabs away
till other aims were supplied. He had heard in the come et as dis-
cussion of counties and towns in England, and Scotland, and had;
but he had never heard any mention of the countries over white,
land ruled abroad. He never suffered so much in his life as dudes
discussion, when be baud himself described as a piece of corruption. 1
the representation could be improved, it ought to be done; but be did
not think the representation of England should be diminished. While
England remained the same, he thought the Scotch reprmentadon
should be inereited, though he must admit that Sootchmen often took
the liberty of billetting themselves on England. And he mast say,
that be never knew an English or Irish gentleman represent a Scot&
county or borough. As he theught the members for England should
not be diminished, be should vote for the motional the gallant impend
with the honest conviction of his heart.
Sir R. WILSON said he considered the bill s proof of the integrity
of Ministers in the redemption of their pledges ; but as the noble lord
opened the measure he felt insuperable objections to the diminution of
the English members. He was sent to the house the advocate, not
only of a free, but of a full, representation of the people of England;
and he could not support a measure that went to decimate the represen.
tation of the people of England. (Hear, hear.) As he did not wish
to appear either to oppose a ministry with whose general principles he
aoreed, nor to oppose a bill of reform, he determined on heating the
measure opened, to relinquish his seat, and mentioned his intention to
the supporters of the bill that night, and was informed it was rather a
suggestion than an essential part of the bill. He had sines learned
from the Gallant General, that his motion was not intended as hostile
to the bill, and on that understanding promised it his support. (Hear.)
The noble lord who introduced the bill said sign, if the house were
averse from the reduction of the number of members, ministers would
not consider it an essential part of the bill, and this was *muds
repeated by the Noble Chancellor of the Exchequer. With- gnat
surprise, therefore, he heard last night from the noble Chancellor of the
Rxchequer, that the proposition for the diminution 0 the members of
the house was a vital principle of the bill, and that those who opposed
it were the enemies otrefotm. (Hear.) He was a steady reformer, but
not a reformer who could put en and put off his principles as he could
a pair of shoes. (Hear.) He could not change his "igloos, pardeu-
larly on this question, because—and be wished he could obliterate the
fact from his memory—to barter his opinions would be to yield to the
most sordid motives. (Hear.) What then was he to do when Ministers
had set the fortune of the bin on a die they ought never to have thrown.
He would resign his seat to his constituents if they were dissatisfied
with the vote he should give; but he would retire into private life with
the conscience of an honest man. (Hear.)
Mr. STANLEY said, the Gallant General had seen a change
of language in ministers, which, however it might have been discovered
by an enemy, could scarcely have been discerned by a Mend. He
boasted of his having been a reformer, but he was doing the utmost in
his power to defeat the Bill. The hon. and gallant member said be was
given to understand that this question was not an essential part of the
minim and after that confidential communication, he bad another
confidential communication with the gallant General opposite, who
came forward with a measure to defeat the measure. The conclave
was held to defeat the Bill agreed upon the present measure as the most
likely to collect all stray votes against it. Front the time the gallant
General's notice of motion appeared in the order.book, it underwent
bur modifications, for the purpose of effectually defeating the
The Bill was received by the country with universal approbation, be-
amuse it extended the constituency. (Hear, hear.) If this resolution
I was carried, and theplembers of the House were to remain the same,
Neither Scotland nor Ireland could receive any addition of members.—
He was sorry to hear the Noble Lor.l last night say, that the opponents
of the Bill wete determined not to give more Members to Catholic Ire-
land. (Hear, hear.) He did not attach much importance to the pro-
portion of Members from England, Ireland, and Scotland ; but as long
as places deserving representation were found unrepresented, he wouM
give them naives, whether in England, Scotland, or Ireland.-e
(Hear, hear. He was also astonished at the objection raised_V MS
right honourable friend the member foe Montgomeryshire (Mr. WykOt
He objected to making population the basis of representation. The
test of population was not the only one ; but it had its value. Ms
right honourable friend objected to the disfranchisement of the roam
boroughs, and said they were to bring men et dot
into the House. He could not =Zie argument, for he then*
minn:arthofreeelecitalloshoofnut.nwmonWolioltdt,godrfilmeeldndus:
yes.tlikenhdwiambtyluustogitahtterahccee:ahphadnatdt
thapreunieHetrughehadatattleteiteP:at
the county
tention of availing himself of the offer, but he was confident, if his right
hon. friend pereeverld le opposition to the bill, his constituents NOM
Ind • member to represent their sentiments in that house.—(Chesessed
laughter.), It was said the members for rotten boroughs did all the lea.
siness of the house. He appealed to the house whether the business
was not done by the county members. There was a ng...64 ie.
deeTise4bol:outelghsy, thatn
was asbadproposedno "Unttldisfinemrantrlsienidevefew England,egmedisawere to be
purchased by the first man that would pay the price.—(Hear.) The
rotten boroughs gave no weight to Ragland, they might be sold to Ire•
land or Scods4 as well as to RogiantL—( Hear, hear.) It was