Star.
London, England, 1822-02-22 00:00:00

•
• • It si.

--212251 look not only to the extent of thejednction to
vessels the use a the dockeval was luperseded.— mwle, but also ,to guard against aniaaprudent sys-
The next item was that of the Ordnance. The :tent °La-eduction:. He knew thartals assertion sub-
difference between the Atmorint. of that establish- jieted hi maid obserrations of those itho had not
merit for the' year 1792 end for, the present year, maturelyed the matter; latrt,,lio. any man who
with the same allowances as before, being added had paid proper attention to the inquiry, it must be
duty of Government to look'
to the increase in the Army and Navy, would shew obvious that it was the
a- total increase for. .the -militaryestablishinsat-01.awith • cautious:tor/deliberate eye upon the operation
5,201,1791.—(Hear).—In considering the Civil List, of a measure of reduction in any establishment, si-
'be had wished to be able to make the same .coms tooted make establishments of th
isis country were. If
- '
partson with regard to that, as he had in the faring" ffielTohliz.tord thought that a ill further saving
instances ; but, on examining the accounts, he found. could be made in the expenses of the Army, be must
them so complicated, that he was obliged to content at least admit that Ministers had reduced that depart-
himself with a general statement. The whole Civil ment to the lowest possible amount numeric
al y.
And
expenditure for 1792 was 2,172,4531. The establish- if they had not reduced te naval arsenal to what
meat for the present year was 2,741,0001. shewing an the Noble Lord might think a suitable establishment,
increase of 568,547/. It would be seen, then, that he hoped the Ministers would get credit for an anxiety'
the whole amount of the increase in the Civil and to maintain our naval supremacy, and not risk it by
Military Establishments, since the year 1792, was reducing ourselves to a situation of weakness and in-
-5,769,9691. He denied that reduction to the amount competency, which perhaps would be the cause of
that he had in view would be inconsistent with a due bringing them to a condition in which they would de-
attention to the interests of the State, aad the main- serve the ridicule and contempt of posterity. This
tenance of its engagements. lf, then, he shewed that question was not to be looked at in reference to the
v
there could be no danger in a reduction to the amount views, interests, or passions of any particular class
of five millions, the only question for the House to of persons. If his Noble Friend, instead of viewing
consider was this, whether it would be more con- it in that way, would only judge of its bearings by
ducive to lend out five millions at simple interest, hy the effect which it had upon the general interests of
way of loan, and in the manner detailed by the Noble the county he was sure his candour would oblige y,
Marquis, or leave it in the pockets of the people, by him to acknowledge that public affairs were not in so
taking off so much of the taxes? The original Sink- deplorable a condition as they were said to be. The
ing Fund was to reduce the debt of the country ; but excess of revenue was a proof of the improvement
the object of the present seemed only to be to raise of the country—(Hear). Upon former occasions,
when similar excess was declared, Gentlemen used to
the prices of Stock : but even to accomplish that ob-
ject, it would be found ineffectual. He shewed, by scout it as unreal and delusive. They were in the
a calculation of the amount daily transferred, taking habit of treating it as a fallacy—as a spirt of the aro-
the.average of the last year, that the Commissioners ment, and that, as it was without a basis, it would
could interfere no farther than to the extent of about end but in disappointment. The same objections cer-
one-fiftieth of the whole transactions; so that their tainly could not be made to the present excess in the
demands could have very little effect in raising the revenue. Even the Noble Lord should admit that
prices of the Stocks ultimately. Besides,it would be that did not stand upon so sandy a foundation as those
remembered that there were occasions when we bor• surpluses of former yehrs to which he alluded—
rowed largely, and even took away the Sinking Fund —(Hear). It was a real and substantial increase in
entirely; yet the measure had not the effect of sink- the revenue of the country. It was an increase not
ing the prices—on the contrary, they were raised at arising from the consumption of this or that article,
the very time. The plan of the Noble Marquis was or from any particular branch of the revenue, but'
to teduce-1,500,000/. and to go on reducing until, in from every branch of the public revenue, and the se-
about six or seven years, he would accomplish a re- veral branches of our foreign trade. He contended
duction of about five millions. The question then that such an increase of revenue was evidence of the
was, would the House think they were doing better increasing prosperity of the country; for could an
for the country by making a reduction to that amount increase take place in the revenue unless there was a
at once, or wait for the interval of so many years?— corresponding increase in the consumption of taxable
Let them recollect the state of the whole country at articles ?—that increased consumption could only ori-
this moment. But he could hardly believe, from ginate in an increase of means in the consumer, and
former experience, that the surplus spoken of would this from an increased and increasing degree of ease
be kept so sacred as was supposed. It was not yet and opulence in every part of the community—
determined that the Four and Five per Cents. should (Heart hear).—Having then an excess of revenue over
be
.reduced; the transaction would take some time the expenditure, and with the facilities which such I
before it was completed. The question, then, was excess left to Ministers of remitting a sum ;of taxa-1
this, whether or not the relief was to be immediate? tion, the question was not now whether any reduc-
It was not necessary to have recourse to artificial tions should be made, but in what degree and to what
means of raising the Funds; the improvement and extent such reductions were to be effected ? It was
prosperity of the country would always be sufficient impossible that the view which his Noble Friend took
to raise the confidence of the Public; and it was not of this subject should not have struck Government,
to be doubted that the five millions alluded to would when they first came to consider the means in their
do infinitely more good when left at the disposal of hands, and that they too saw the possibility of re-
tire People, amongst themselves, than when applied ducing the taxes to the same extent as the excess
to the purchase of Stock. The House then, he hoped, created amounted to. But Government, by not cons
would attend to the import of his proposition. He sentin to reduce the taxes to that extent, proved at
had no hesitation in declaring it to be his opinion, least that they had no selfish objects in view, for if
that the whole five millions ought to be reduced; but they could have any ambition to gain popularity,
for the purpose of practical benefit to the country, he certainly no step which they could take would be half
would confine hi; motion to the simple issue, whether so effectual for that purpose at the present moment
or not the House was satisfied with the plan of the as the reduction of five millions of taxes—(Heer).—
Noble Marquis? So far as Ire could presume from They had, however, their duty in view ; and having
what had passed in the House, he believed that it was the means in their hands, it remained with them to
not the intention of Ministers to follow up immediately say in what manner these means were to be applied
the exposition of the plan by any measure which with the best likelihood of beneficial results. They
would call upon the House to decide upon the ques- certainly felt all the advantages of conceding a re-
tion; and, if they had, he hoped they would not take duction of taxes, but they sere also justified in doubt-
advantage of any objection of that nature, as he would ing whether the relief bestowed by such a measure
consider that mode of meeting the question as yield- would be more than counterbalanced by the evil con-
ing the point. The simple question, then, for the sequences which it would necessarily induce. Ile
House to decide was, whether or not they were satin- (Mr. Robinson) was convinced the consequences would
fled with the plan of the Noble Lord ?—(Hear).—He be more detrimental than the relief could be bene-
concluded by moving the following Resolution: ficial—(Hear, hear).—lf he understood the plan of
.. That it is the opinion of this House, that the reduction on the Noble Lord rightly, there was incorporated in it
the amount of taxation proposed by his Majesty's Ministers was an avowed and systematic intention of destroying the
not sufficient to satisfy the justice of the case, or the expecta- Sinking Fund altogether—a measure of finance than
Lions of the People?" which he could net conceive any more fatal to the in-
Mr. F. ROBINSON said he was ready to acknow- terest of such a country as this. All the men who
ledge that the Noble Lord had opened the considera- ever looked at this
question with consideration, agreed
tion of this very important question in the fairest and in the abstractpolicy of
most candid manner. Ile could assure the Noble heardobjections •to it as applied to practice, some of
Lord that so far was it from the intention of Minis- which he did not understand. If, indeed, it was said
ters to meet the issue which the Noble Lord pre- that it was • not good policy to pay off the Debt with
rented to the House, by any indirect means or eva- one hand, and it • increase with the other, as was the
sive objections, that it was gratifying them much to case in a part of
last war, such an objection was in-
have the opportunity given for the House to decide e;but telli •bl
gt how a real Sinking Fund, which, with-1
upon it. He therefore thanked the Noble Lord for out adding to the. Debt, was efficient, so far as it
originating a motion by which the direct question went, to •
would be tried. In looking at the question now before at a loss • • to imagine—(Near, Hear, hear).--The Noble Lord
them as one which involved a contrast between two mig • h t say, that the only effect of this Fund was to
very different measures, it was material for the House raise the price of Stock in the market, and ask how
not to lose sight of the circumstances under which it '• h • • was possible, with a Sinking Fund of 5,000,0001.
they were enabled to discuss it. The question be- which in six years would make but 30,000,0001. to
Debt tween them was not whether there should be reduce reduce a
tion or no reduction, but whether it was wiser at once the Noble Lord mean to deny that the existence of
a
influence
to make the reduction to the amount of the surplus, Sinking Fund had no upon the public
Hcredit
which was to be turned into a Sinking Fund, or corn- of the ? He (Mr. Robinson) would tell the
bine the maintenance of the integrity of the Sinking Noble d Lor , that the insuring of a systematic op.
Fund with the gradual reduction of taxes?—(Hear).
placation
of a sum of money to the reduction of the
The House should, in the first place, consider that Debt, acted as a stimulus to industry, and a security
this was the first time for forty years since the House to the public
creditor, far beyond the • al
had beer. in a situation to discuss what was to be done value of that sum, '
numeric.
whatever it might be, and that
with the actual surplus of the revenue. They should • h
compared
with this secondary effect, the reduction
look to the circumstances which produced that sur- of the Debt was but of small importance—(Hear). —.
plus. It had been the result of two causes—the re- The Noble Lord lead admitted that practical men
duction of expense and the improvement of the re- viewed the • questiou differently from him, and he
venue. He would not follow the Noble Lord through ' gave it ashis opinion that even if
Parliament did
the details of his speech; but he would say, that if abolish this system of a Sinking Fund, the public
the Noble Lord could satisfy the House that, by a credit of the country would not be at all affected by
greater reduction than even that proposed by Minis- the measure. In this view, with great
deference 'to
ters, they could increase the surplus still more, even the Noble Lord, lie (Mr. F. Robinson) entirely dif-
then he would shew that the motives were the greater fered from I• um ; for he .sas firmly convinced that
for the maintenance of a Sinking Fund. The Noble a
measure such as the Noble Lord contemplated, would
Lord's proposition was—reduce the taxation at any not only • be likely to shake public credit, but •
rate, and leave it to chance savings to form a Sink- one thing that if
more than another was
ing Fund out of. But he (Mr. Robinson) would rat- lab d required to scatter
abroad terror and dismay, it would bean
they say, maintain the Sinking Fund arid reduce what the integrity attack upon
of that Fund which he •
you can by various savings. Upon the details of the —Vicar, hear)—He was
Resolution proposed he would not now trouble the the Noble Lo • therefore most jealous of
rd's proposition, because he considered
Ilouse ; but he could answer for it that Ministers, last . it the
year, proposed a Resolution with the most deliberate ' Funds forerunner of a most desperate attack upon the
altogether—(Cries of " No").—He certainly
intention to act up honestly to its spirit. The mode
and extent of reduction was all that he should at called upon to reduce tire Sinking Fund because the
la went deal with. It was the duty of Ministers to , country was unable to pay, might it not be
expected