Star.
London, England, 1813-03-03 00:00:00

MISCELLANIES.

Sir JOHN COX HIPPESLEY intimated, that he would move
.to-motrow, ler the return of the strength and distribution of the
Irish Rerments of Militia, at present quartered lii England and
Wales. 'lite Honourable Baronet corrected a mis-statement
which he lied made in a pamphlet, respectivg the number of per-
sons professing the Roman Catholic religion on board his Ma-
jrrey'4 navy, and which had been refuted in a recent rebate,
trout the oihtr side of the House. The mistake was oct.a-ioned
by information which lie had received, upon application at the
Admiralty, :aid which, he was sorry to find, could not be relied
upon.
Mr. WHYTE brought up the Report of the Ballot of the
Commit t‘.e appointed to examine the contested Election Petitions
fur the County of Pembroke. The Ellowing are the Members
bAllotted : Messrs. R. li. Lee, Sandford Graham. Angfistus Fos-
ter, S. Hcotl, - Mowbray, Leader, Guise K ast.lcigh, l.urd
F. Osborne, Bradshaw Mttliuen, Wlllotighby, Pocock, Dicken-
son, and Hall.
On the motion of Mr. BENSON, thedbriumerous Petitions
againA the Leather Tax were ordered to be referred to a Select
Committee, who, on being a: pointed, were ordered to report
their proceedings to the House

The following Members were ballotted for a Committee, to
take into consideration the contested Election Petitlnis of I.i-
-verpool :—Hon. N. fellowet, Sir E. Knatchboll, Finn. (1. Aber-
crombie, Sir J. Amin':her, R. Barnard, Esq. W. R Cartwright,
Esq. It. W. Newman, Esq. R. Snirtb, Esq. Sir M. Sykes, lion. E.
Finch, Lord Kensington, Hon. W. P. Mackenzie, General Dun-
lop, R. P. Heron, Esq Lord W. Russell.
ADJOURNED DEBATE
ON THE CATHOLIC QUESTION.

Sir H. PARNELL, adverting to the observations
which had been made on the subject last night by a
Right Honourable Gentleman who had recently filled
a high official situation in Ireland (Mr. W. Pole),
characterised those observations as most candid and
honest, and peculiarly entitled to the attention of
every individual in the House. That Right Hon.
Gent tem an was a most competent witness to the facts
of the case. Having filled the office of Chief Secre-
tary of ireland for five years, and having resided in
that coomry tor many more years in a private capa-
city, he was eminently qualified to speak on the 'sub-
ject. That Right Honourable Gentleman had truly
stated, that not only the Catholics of the highest class
but the Catholics of the very lowest order, telt deeply
interested in the decision of the question before the
House. He had also truly stated, that the opinion
of the greit majority of the Protestants of Ireland
was in favour of Catholic Emancipattbn ; thus re-
moving one of the thief arguments that had been hi-
therto resorted to by its opponents. But the most
material declaration that had been made by the Right
Hon. Gentleman was, that of late the Catholics had
made such great actinisit;ons in riches and in know-
ledge, that it was impossible thingscould remain as they
were. Parliament must make up their minds either
to grant the required concessions, or to re-enact the
ancient penal code. Much emphasis had been laid
on the tone assumed by the Catholics. If they had
been violent in their speeches, they had been taught
to be so by the example of their opponents. Let the
blouse recollect the attempt made by Government,
to put down the Catholic Board when k first assem-
bled ; let them recollect the arrest of Lord Fingal,'
and the other Members of that Board ; let them re•
collect the sub.equent trials; let them recollect the
speech of the Attorney-General on those trials ; let
them recollect those circumstances, and they would
find abundant cause for irritation in tire Catholic
mind. Al:ove all, let them recollect the character
of a late negociation for a new Administration. One
of the conditions of that negociation—a condition
which was understood to be acceded to by the Illus-
trious Personage at the head of public affairs—was
concession to the Catholics. When, therefore, at the
end of that negociation, the Catholics saw recalled to
power the party who had been avowedly hostile LO
them, they must have been more than men had not
some of the asperities of disappointment been evinced
in their conduct. But, as had been admirably said
by his Right Hon. Friend near bins (Mr. Grattan),

'the =duct of a part of the Catholics was not the
*abject •of consideration. The question should be
determined Upon the solemn and permanent principles
rot' general and wise legislation. Nor were the peti-
tions that had been prewoted against Catholic eman-
cipation entitled to much respect. He had examined
their character ; and in doing so, he had distinguished
between those which proceeded from the clergy, and
those which proceeded from the laity. Only three
counties in England had been assembled by public
requisition for the purpose of petitioning Parliament
on the subject. From Kent and Oxfcrdshire, petitions
had certainly been presented against" the Catholic
claim ; but of the two petitions which had that night
been presented from Cornwall, one professed no ob-
jection to an inquiry into the claims, and the other
was unequivocally favourable to them. There were
nine counties in England. from only one town in each
of which—three counties, from only two towns in
each of which—and five counties, from more than two
towns in each of which petitions had been presented
against the Catholic claims. From twenty coun-
ties in England there had been no petition on the
(part of the laity. Twenty-three of the petitions
that had been presented from various towns were
from the Mayors and Corporations, and not from
the general inhabitants of the respective places. It
was necessary also that 'the House should recollect,
that from the whole of Scotland not a hingle peti-
tion against the Catholics had been received. The
just inference from all these facts was, that the adver-
saries of concession, formed but a very small portion
of the community. Driven out of their other argu-
ments, the opponents of emancipation were compelled
again to have recourse to that rubbish avhich Mr.
Burke, so long ago as the year 1795, thought had
been removed from any future consideration on the
subject. They again founded their objections or.
points in the Catholic faith which the Catholics had
themselves long abandoned as untenable. Those
doctrines which, two years ago, Lord Liverpool al-
lowed were maintained by the Cathol.cs ; these dot:-
trines, whicleeven Mr. Perceval, in the debates of last
year, had admitted not to be fair grouods of oppesi.
tion to their claims, were once more insisted upon,
and placed in the front of the battle. To the tri-
umphant period of ignorance had these :holsters re-
turned, who could bring themselves to oppose CaCio-
; lie emancipation with all their force, but who could
not have the patience and decourn to sit on their
i bench and heat the arguments of those by whom it
4A-as supported.-a-[The Treasury Bench was utterly
deserted during the Honourable Baronet's spcech.]—
Reverting to the petitions that had been presented
against the Catholics, and the publications that had
proceeded f rom the press against them, he reprdbated
the conduct of the Clergy, and the heads of the
Clergy, on the subject. The Bishop of Lincoln, con-
ceiving, it seemed, that the church was in danger, had
delivered to his clergy that, which was a bad
politi-
cal pamphlet, instead of a good religious charge. It
was a publication unfounded in its statements, and
• garbled and incorrect in its quotations and extracts ;
and yet it was a work of no light import. It charged
the Catholics of Ireland with holding opinions of a
most dangerous nature. It endear "tired to impress
in this country that the rebellion of 17i)S was a Ca-
tholic rebellion. Of !his he was persuaded, that
had the Reverend Bishop advanced these charges
against an individual instead of against a whole
body, he might have been convicted of a libel. In
support of this opinion, he instanced the case of a
pamphlet entitled A fair Wire:rotation ar Ireand,j
in which the author, a person of the name of Latten,
was prosecuted by a person of the name of Wright,l
to whom he had attributed dispositions similar to
thbse which had been recently asci ibed by the Bisito? '
of Lincoln to the great body of the Catholics of Le-
land. Lord Kenyon, b:sfore whom the cause was
tried, declared the publication to be a most atrocious
libel ; and the plaintiff obtained £5OO damages.—
What was the criminality of a libel ?—that it tended
to disturb the public peace. Surely the public peace
was in greater danger of being disturbed by libelling
a whole people, than by libelling a single individual.
As far as lie could form any opinion on the subject,
he thought the publication to which he had alluded
ought to be made th,:. subject of a distinct motion in
that House ; and that Parliament should deliver its
sentiments on the charge made in it of treasonable
principles and treasonable practices against the whole
people of Ireland. But there was another document,
and that on the table of that House, of a still more
reprehensible nature. Ile alluded to the petition from
the inhabitants of Huddersfield drawn up at :t meeting
at which a clergyman, the reverend Mr. Coates, pre-
sided. This petition actually declared, " that the
Catholics considered it to be a praise-worthy act to
murder heretics." Thus, there was on the table of the
House a paper—sanctioned by a clergyman of the
Established Church—charging the Catholics with
eneertaining murder as a principle of their religion ?
ll'hen so great a body was the object of so foul an
imputation, an opportunity ought assuredly to be
afforded of ascertaining the accuracy of the state-
ment, in order th it, if true, it might be pi oved to
be so ; if false, that the stain might be wiped away.
There were two species of authorities to which the
House might have recourse on which to ground their
decision cf this most important question—on the one
hand, they might t;irtn their judgment train the va-
rious scraps which purported to he the opinions of the
Catholics, and .were to be found scattered in various
Pamphlets, Newspapers, and other pubiicatioos cf
the same stamp ; on die other, they had the motto-
rity of the Irish Bishops, the Pop_ hirnielf, and tl:e
Foreign Universities ; on this rein the whole ques-
tion rested, for if the House were to ptFler the first-
mentioned authorities, to pi es, the mattcr any fur-
ther was useless ; whereas, it the latter were pre-
ferred, they must of necessity et-int every
An Hon. Member had adduced the to,th agre...l to
be taken in the year 1791 by the Catholics, :o;
proof of the influence of the Pope, tint this had
been explained on a former night by an Honourable
Baronet who sat near him, and shewn to manifeA
as extraordinary respect for that Gl varnment, to the
interests of which it was supposed to be hostile. The
oath adopted at the period elludeci to seas sane ionetl
by Pope Pius the Sixth, all that part tr hich was deemed
obnoxious being expunged. 'lleac-was oae objection
adduced by the impugners of the tholie claims sl evea
to be nugatory, and the others were• equally easy to r e-
lute. The doctrine of satisfaction, for instance-, vas
urged against them. Now there went(' be found a clarse
iu the oath taken by the Irish I.3sliors, imp tinz,

MINIIIPP

that they would enter into no t which
might militate against the allegiance owed to their
lawful Sovereign the King of Great Britain. Ano-
ther objection was, the doctrine at exclusive salva-
don. NVith respect to he could chew, that less
could be imputed to the Catholics than any other de.
nomination of Christranc, There was actually no
reformed Church, the Church of England not et.
cepted, but what acknowledged this as one of their
principal tenets. Th.z Hon. &feather then read a
ssage from some expositivn of Calvinistic faith, in
which was the foHowing sentence: 1

,~

" Eirra Freest& culla sales, nuna peccandi renessio."
Thus, a passage from one of the thirty-nine Articles
of the Church of Engl and, of a similar import is and,.
lastly, an exposition of the Creed of the Itcmish'
Church, relative to the point in question, which cot-.
chided with an assumption, that thtrc were mans-.
concealtitt children of the Cletrch in the various sects
!which had separated fForia her. The Hon. Metnuee
then, after again dwelling on the falsehood of the-
charges which had been advanced against Catholics'',
proceeded to read a passage fiorn a Catholic theolo.-
'disclaimed
miter, named Gother, in st hich he vehemtntlf
'disclaimed the doctrine last alluded to, sayiagie
cursed are we if we do not detest all these hellish OW.
tices, as much as those who impute them to us.--
t Hear, hear)—The Hon. Heather next adverted to
a speech on the Catholic qttesti..n, delivered on a for-
mer occasion by the late Mr. Perceval, in which he
had said, that it was extraordinary that neither the.
Pope or the Irish Bishops had disavowed the odionc
doctrines imputed to them, adding, that an Ho-
nourable Member, whom he did not now see ht his
plate, had, in the course of the present debate, 7nti-
mated a suspicion as to the fictitious nature -ei'tlie
Istatement froutthe foreign Universitie t. In order to
rebut these insinuations, the lionooreble Member
read a passage fte m e document, purporting to be
A communication from the (:. liege of Cardira's, in
which they reprobated the du: rine tit it it was lawful
to invade the write:ries of Pro:estatit Soseviei;tte,
or put them to (teeth, as horrid and dezesteble.—
But the fact uejs, the HAL Menther went on to say
that the question had been already decided by one of
those Legislative enactments to which the-% owed
some of the privileges they .already enjoyed, and
which went to acknowledge their fitness to hold those
offices to which they now aspired. But it %%QS con-
tended that their admission to them would be con•
I trary to the principles of tee Revolution. The false-
I hood of this chewy was more ably exposed an one of
the speeches of the late M.. Fox t.ap he could hope
to expose it.—[ficre the lion. Nit mtler red s :neextracts frem the speech to which :.e heti' alluded,
!and which went to shew, that previous. to. 'lie Rev....
lution, and even subsequent to that period', little or
ne jealousy had-been entertaiaed of the Catholics as
such.] lie then adverted to the opinions of Sir Wire.
Ulackstone, who had not, he contended, as it was
I imputed to him, affirmed that the penal laws against
the Catholics could never be repealed, but only
i hat they could not he repealed without proper secu-
rities being given for the maintenance of the esta-
olislied religion, and oho hid even goneaeter :as [a
Assert, that when ail fear of the Pretender was re.
•noved, nod the river of the Pope should f eve Le.
come insignificant, not only in lingieni, bac in the
Papel Commies of Europe, then all restrict:ells al-
lecting the Roman Catholics might be seteei done
away, and they continued free front their poeveire
{ till a new and unfavourable change in their civil
! principles might make it necessary to revise them.
Ii the Catholics had been an object of apprehen.
1 sion at the Revolution, some °late& would heve
i been introduced into the Bill of Rights, ir• which
the terror felt by the netiou would have been ex-
pressed ; but no such clause appeared in it ; nor was
theee even a chest: in it by virtue of which Catholics
were excluded from Perliement. But how many
great authorities might be referred to, to sltew tnat
the admission of the Catholics to the advantages of
the Constitution, would not be contrary to :el of its
fundamental principles. Mr. Fox and Mr. Pet, and
several other great men, had urged the expediency of
repealing the Penal Laws; would they have done so
had they conceived that the repeal is: them would
have had that effect ? The Catholics hap long-been a
calumniated body, and the spirit of calumny did eet
I seem likely to relax aught of its activity. A. Prelate
I of the Church of Engend, the Bishop of Linceln,
i
had recently taxed them with being the proinowe i I
and agents
.in the late rebellion in [lrian.' ; new this
charge was utterly unfounded in tact: the rebellioe
originated with the Protestant lli.senters in the Not tit
lof Ireland, these, it were true, were supported by the
Catholic peasantry, hut from the Catholic Clergy they.
received no assistance or co-operation ; indeed, e r tar
horn diet Ewing the Lase, their Bishops lead been vet y
active and uselul in purti ig down the rebellion, in
which not one Priest Lidding a benefice had been con-
cerned, and of near 3tiOu Priests which constituted
the Clerical Body, not more than eight or Dine had
I been impliceied ; and these were mcii who, for lin-
! pr:per conduct, had hen excluded from the exercisa
1 of their sacerdotal tate:wins ; moreover, of the ‘2h
j leader!. of the rebellion who had been sent to Fort
ISt. Gtor;.s, not above three or four were Catholic.. ;
end, indeed, Mr. Pitt lied declared that it was not a
Latledic rebellion. . The assertion te the Bishop, he
( truited, he had shewn to be untrue, and he hoped
'that when the House looked back and perceived whet
teeny had beers the conduct a t the Catlielics, that
the contrast wouLd have its doe effect iii their fa yetis.
—thee I; ad putietti dly falfilled every at title of the
Treece el Linietick : its the rebellion of 1715, there•
sv:e; n0.....t sit.gle his!' Cacho' c concetned. In the.
America!: e or whet had 'oven their colidoct ? \Vilerr
the count: y was lett sa itheet troops, and they had due
opportunity i I maniiesting any dislike th, I neg e•
eiaertain e weidA d.s: Government, they hiJa.eed ti •
:he most ceitc. able and orderly manner piesible. 1f
their coedect in reletion to ihe 'Freely of Limerick:
as ere compared with til.:t if King Willi on and Pis
,ti:cessoes, a contrast wool,' be presented, by no
i means advatit4geotis to the latter. By teat. treaty,
every advantage tiny could wash for was. geented
them ; and the compact was shat thy after shamefully
ve.laied, v. het. the 1:s. (-wive of this coeiety shnulli
have taken the tiirite:a opportunity to rati;y a treaty, •
\elude though seolated, is still binding.
Mr. Ne. l IL li R AHA M Boon, I:. teed,' not per.
ceive any advaieage chat was likely to be derived
from the p:escnt 'notion being agreed to. The per.
sons who in a Cerritnittee would eiviec.:te 'he claims
of the Catholics had shevn thews:hes unable to de.

llilte any expedient ty which the pebpie of the Cisatek
, !night have the security they desired, in the present-
'. debate ; the only advantage then that a Committee
'would afford them was, that they ',fluid be enabled
to speak as often As they pleased, and that would be
more than•counterbalanced by the want of that order
which the authority of the Speaker was used to male...,
taint The only expedient which had been suggested.
for securing the interests of the Church was domestic
nomination ; but he would appeal to any one convex..
sant with the subject to say whether this was not a
still stronger measure than the veto, in which the (;a.
thnlics had refused to acquiesce. and therefore very
little likely to meet their approbation. [The Hon.
Gentleman then read a passage from the petitions of
the Catholics, in which they expressed their reluctance
40 adopt any measure which would interfere with their
Veligions tenets ; and concluded with stating it as his
Ibpkion. that the batter mode of mewing the goes-
, ton would be to bring in a Bill, the various clauses
bf which should contain an exposition of the terms on
Nvhich the Catholics would accept the.privileges they
'Claimed.) If it appeared there was a- feasible mode
of conciliating them, at the same time that proper se-
curity could be afforded to the Church, there was eiti
'man would be more.willing than himself to impart to
%hem the advantages of the Constitution. •
'Sir W. SCOTT said, it was the duty of the House •
to watch over the interests of the Established Church
is irfterwoven with the interests of the State. He
4culd not say but that the principle of exclusioli
might be tarried. too far. It was a principle with hits
that the Catholics should be excluded from all judicial
offices connected with ecclesiastical affairs. For no-
thing could be so inconsistent as that of referring great
questions on the subject of tythes, or other church
affairs, to a Roman Catholic Judge. The Chancel-
lor and Master of the Rolls did exercise powers of
this kind ; and they were also advisers of the King.;
and he wished to knout whether it would be proper
to trust the management tf such things as these to a
Catholic Chancellor ? He was sorry to find that, for
the first time, a principle cf disrespect had been in.
troduced into that House against high and venerable
Clergymen, whose wish it was to preserve their es-
tablishments. It could not be denied that there
existed an hostility on the part of the Catholics against
our Church ; and he quoted the authority of certain
publications to prove this. The opinions of the Irish
Catholics went much farther in this respect than the
opinions of any other people in Europe, because the
Pope had a more direct influence over them than
over any others. In other countries the opinions of
the Pope came to the inhabitants through their Go-
. seernments, which served as a kind of strainers to do
away the ill effects of them ; but in Ireland, the
Pope came in direct contact with the People, with-
out any such interventiue. There were 'also dog-
mas in the Catholic religion that were repugnant to
the principles of toleration. He did lodk upon the
Roman Catholic Prelates as conscientious men ; and
many of them* were men of excellent education and
talents. But still he could not lose sight of their
tenets, nor forget that they were under the influence
of the Pope ; on which account he must consider
them as unfit for the possession of political power.—
The preservation of our establishments imposed no
penalties on Catholics. It was no more unjust than
the restrictions laid on Pi otcstants in Catholic coup.
tries. It 'was the duty of Catholic Governments to
confine great offices of state to Catholics. The de-
parture from such a principle in ' France, by the
appointment of M. Necker to be Prime Minister, he
believed was the principal cause of all the calamities
that afterwards were felt by France and all Europe.
The only securities that could be given by elre Ca-
tholics, were such as it would be a violence on them
to exact frem them. These were domestic Nomina-
tion and the Veto. It would be a violence to them
• to eject the Pope. An Act to make him surrender'
his power would be wholly depriving him of his su.
• prernacy. Then he would ask, it there were any
better securities ? If aCommittee were gone into they
would go into it without any securities. Any power
which the Pope might exercise hereafter must be the
act of that subtle and dangerous tyrant Bonaparte,
. in whose power his Holiness the. Pope now was.
There was in Ireland a very large numerical majo-
rity of Catholics ; and, if the establishment was to be
• preserved, the power must be vested in the minority.
This was the only defence that could exist against
• the physical power of this majority. Now, if both
pities were admitted into an equal participation of
power, wht would the consequence be? Why, that
• the maiority of individuals would domineer over the
others. One religion then must have a complete
ascendancy—the other must be disarmed of its power
of undoing such ascendancy. As to the proposed
Committee, he could not see in it any prospect of a
Leneficial result. He knew that most of the Protes-
tants of this kingdom left great anxiety and fear on
this subject. The Catholics now tell us, that they
considered all seculities as insults, injuries, and per-
secutions. Then, if we gave them limited power,
without conceding all they asked, what were we do-
ing but giving an idle parade of good will, which
they would leok upon with contumely and scorn.—
Perhaps it might be attended with the same result as
the Declaratory Act sent out by this country to Ame-
rica, in 1778. We were now called on, ho 'ever, to
open the gates whiclecur ancestors would never have
opened ; and we were called on to grope in the dart.,
without any object, without any ground to go upon,
and without any evidence as to what ought to be
dene. For these reasons he should oppose the motion.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the vote he should
give now would be the result of most mature delibe-
r,liv..l. He certainly should now differ from many
with ‘s horn he had formerly acted ; and he should
give his reasons for the opinion he had formed. He
hoped th.t all party feelings would be left entirely
out of the discussion. He assured the House he had
not accered of power on any condition of taking any
particular part in this great question, which ought
entirely to be separated Irom the struggles of party,
and left to 'proceed on its own principles. He was,
therefore, surprised to hear an Honourable Gentle-
man (Mr. Plunkett) say, that the acceptance of office
for mod any condition on which Gentlemen were to
act on. this question. The Cabinet of Ireland had,
on -a former occasion, brought in a Bill, they aban-
doned it, and afterwards remained in office. His
sentiments on this subject at present were no secret to
any Member of the House. He had long since de-
clared that he felt himself at liberty to give his own
individual opiuion la such a way as etc conceived

-•-
theft ticivanbtsteeitis to due public. Tie did see dial-
reulties that appeared to 4+e iosiirmounodile, in - ac-
complishing the, great objects in question :,.bur, at
the same time, he wax aminesto eo forward with
others who thOtigSt they could accomplish the dim-
witty, There :.ippeared to he a general sense in. the
Houle that a discussion must be entered inm upon
it. It was upon this ground that he voted last sum-
mer for going into this Enquiry. He should not,
however, give his assent to any specific measure that
should not tend to secure the general tranquillity,
and be acceptable to all classes of his Majesty's sub-
jects. He did not think there was any material change
of circumstances, since the Vote of last summer, that
ought to produce any change in the decision of the
House at this time. It was true the intemperance of
Catholic Leaders at the meetings of Catholics, did
great injury to their own cause : but this intempe-.
ranee existed as much last year as at this time, and
the power of the Pope was not greater now. Nor did
he think the declaration of the Bisle-ps was any ob-
stacle tosoing into an inquiry. The only thing the
Catholics considered the Pope incompetent to do
during his duress, was, that of divesting himself of
his own power. In every other respect, they consi-
dered him_ as possessing all the ecclesiastical autho-
rity he ever had. There `Was not, then, any change
Of circumstances that could operate as an argument
against going into an inquiry. As to what had been
said of the sentiments of the people against the Ca-
tholics, he was certain that, if the Catholics should
hereafter conduct themselves in a temperate manner,
some adequate regulation respecting them might be
adopted, in.a way that would completely satisfy the
minds of the people. The Protestants in every part
of Ireland seemed to be in favour of the Catholics ;
and had the Catholics pursued a different conduct
in Ireland, -they would have had a great many
more of the English Protestants on their side. He
had been asked whether, if the House went into
a Conimittee, he was prepared with any plan or pro-
position e On this point he. had no difficulty in say-
ing, that when the House should enter into the
Committee, he hoped the Right Honourable Gentle-
man (Mr. Canning) would be prepared to point out
some propositions to the Committee, as he was the
mover of the resolution agreed to by the House last
slimmer. For hi. own part he did not feel himself
authorised to do more than he did last year. He
certainly did see now, as he saw then, the difficulty of
coming to any legislative arrangement on this ques-
tion. He therein' e could not charge himself with
the responsibility of bringing forward any thing ;
but if any mode could be sl'cwn by which any good
could be effected, he should give his assistance in
bringing it about. To attempt to prosecute any re-
gulations by which the Catholic Church should sub-
sist in this country, would be an insult. And lie
himself should act the most contemptible part, if he
conceded to the Catholics political privileges, and,
at the same time, demanded sacrifices of them, which
they could sot acquiesce in with honour.—(llear,
hear).—He remembered at the time of the Conces-
sions, in 1793, nothing displeased them so much as
the term which their friends now gave them, of Pa-
/lists. • They did not conceive it inconsistent with
their Church to adopt the tenets of Catholics in all
other countries. He would say, that whatever tem-
porary delusion might have grown upon the Catho-
lic mind in Ireland, it was only a temporary one.—
He maintained that certain securities ought to be
given, and he believed the Catholics themselves were
deeply interested in an arrangement of this kind. As
to the tenets of the Catholic Church, the House ought
to look on them with a fair and liberal spirit. There
was scarcely any church in which there were not some
cm's handed down from our ancestors. But the
proper view to look at this questum was this—to see
what danger there would be from its connection with
the Church of ?tome. The dangers that did once
exist in Europe were said to arise entirely from the
Court, and not from the Church, of Rome ;—and
as that Court had no longer any power or ex-
istence, it was asked what danger was there ?--
This Church was certainly still an engine that might
be danilerons in carrying a political object ; and this
give rise to the necessity for securities. he Pore
certainly had great power. The French Emperor, in
the plenitude of his great authority, was not able to
overwhelm the Pope, who had resisted him, as if he
was a greater sovereign than himself. And this was a
proof that he still held a great degice of political
power. When General Moore was in Spain, a report
from the Miaister of Police to Bonaparte happened tr•
be found, and sent over to this country. The deli-
berate opinion of Fouche then was, that Bonaparte
would surmount all his great difficulties, if he relaxed
his severity to the See of Rome. This advice of !
Fouche was followed, and it produced its effect. Al-
ter hip successes against Austria, Bonaparte renewed
his severities against the Pope. Now, in his adverse
fortune, he adopted another course, for the direct
purpose of giving an influence over the most super-
stitious people in Europe. For these reasons it was
fit that we should entertain a jealousy against this
Power ; and that some sort of securities ought to be
devised. Fur the power of the Pope was no longer
to be considered in any other light than that of an
engine in the hands-43f the French Government, for
political purposes. He considered that the same
feelings of attachment to the Constitution which had
taught the Catholics to resist the power of the Pope,
when exerted in firmer times to ctfeet the destruction
of the liberties of this country, would enable them to
resist any such danger, if it were to occur now. All
he wculd ask of the Catholics of these countries
would be, -to enter into the securities demanded of
their Catholic brethren in other parts of Europe
against the Papal power. Let the Catholics, there-
fore, not say that they were asking any thing unreae
sonable or new from them, when they asked them to
concur in suck safeguards employed for theisafety of
the State, at a time when their's was the established
.religion of the country. He solemnly declared, that,
to the last hour of Mr. Pitt's life, be
tclLord C.) 'had
never had the least reason to believe at `his opinion
bad been in the least shaken as to the expediency of
this measure. That Right Hon. Gentleman, how-
ever, had found it so entangled with difficulties, that
he never could see the time when it could be brought
forward with propriety. On the subject of securities
he had no difficulty in stating those which he thought
would be necessary to be given by the Catholics. The
whole intercourse between the See of Rome and this
country ought to be fair and open, not secret and oc-
cult. There was nothing iq their religioe which

.. •

, • . • . •
Make ad honest Catholic ollect to OA an af-
rarigeritek At a time wen the Pope was domi4l-
hated with out enemy hi France, there could be no
man, who wished well to the State, that would say.
the House ought not to receive such a seetti ity from
the Catholics. He trusted the House would be able
in the Committee to come to sofne afrangetnent the
least objectionable to the Catholics, which might be
able to prevent foreign influence from having a dan-
gerous effect, through them, on the State in which they
lived. Another security, which he thought ought to:
be granted, was the Pito j and he did not know how
that security was discordant with the Catholic
religion. Indeed, in the negociations which were
carried on between the Catholics and himself, the
arrangement of the Veto was proposed rather by the
Catholics to him, than by him to the Catholics. He
was sure the Catholics wished so well to the State,
that they would rather the Government should know
an individual proposed to be appointed to fill any
high situation in their Church, in order that it might
ascertain whether he was not likely to become dan-
gerous from his political prejudices. For his own
part, therefore, he could have no objection to going
into the Committee, or to the Right Honourable
Mover bringing in his Bill, founded on a general re-
solution of that Committee. As far as he understood
the Bill of the. Right Honourable Mover (Mr. Grat-
tan) he thought it was one to which it would be
unnecessary to make any fundamental alteration,
because. it went to repeal all the disabilities under
which the Catholics laboured : only demanding from
them, that they should acknowledge ours as the esta-
blished Church of the country. He would go into
the Committee with a sincere wish to seethe measure
carried into edict ; but, in his opinion, that was not
to be done at once, as it would be highly proper that
the Protestant mind should be fully satisfied on the
subject.

ifr. ROSE, amidst violent clamour, and calls for
Mr. Ponsonby, declared, that neither the eloquence
of some Speakers nor the arguments of the Noble
Lord had satisfied him that the House ought to go
into the Committee. He would have risen, however,
but for the purpose of expressing his belief that a
change did take place in the mind of his late Right
Hon. Friend ( Mr. Pitt), in opposition to the assertion
of the Noble Lord ; had he been now alive he had no
doubt that he would have opposed the present motion.
Lord CASTLEREAGH explained; he had only
said that no difference took place in Mr. Pitt's opi-
nion of the expediency of the measure itself, not of
the expediency of agitating it. With respect to what
woulit have been his opinion at present, he did not
conceive the Right Hon. Gentleman was qualified to
give any information on that point.
Mr. MANNERS SUTTON objected to the snee-
ring way in which the petitions from the Protestaats
had been treated. Going into a Committee, unless
they went into a full deliberation, and came. to a
practical decision, would be productive of more evil
than benefits exciting hopes in the Catholics never to
be realized, anti a ferment in the Protestant minds
not readily to be allayed. He denied the justness of
the charge of indecency against the Protestant Cler-
gy, for the part they had taken. Though they had
a right to take part in any question, yet this was not
a mere political question, becz use the very safeguards
proposed were for the security of the Protestant
Church, It was not for monopoly of power, but be.
cause they feared this measure would affect the sta-
bility of their establishment, that they petitioned.—
He was shocked at the misrepresentation of the
Charge of the Bishop of Lincoln by a Worthy Baro-
net, who spoke of that Prelate as his respected friend.
He hoped he had since read the pamphlet, and al-
tered his opinion, which would otherwise appear most
extraordinary. As to Mr. Pitt's authority, whose
decease, in such times as these he much.lamented, he
had no new proposition to offer; but with common
opportunities of information, he believed that Mr.
Pitt was sincere in his object, guarding it with pro-
per securities, but that he did not act upon it, owing.
to times and circumstances. He thought that if Mr.
Pitt were living, he would not have agreed to go into
the Committee, unless he knew what was the nature
of the-measure to be proposed.
Sir R. HERON, in explanation, re-read the para-
graph from the Prelate's pamphlet, which he had
quoted on a former evening, and he left it to the
House to determine who it was that had misrepre-
sented the Reverend Author. Another Hon. Mem-
ber (Mr. Peele) had also attributed to him gross ca
lumpy for this quotation ; but he relied on the justice
of the House.

Mr. PEELE explained. In attributing gross ca-
lumny to the Hon. Baronet, be had not alluded to
the quotation, but to expressions uttered by him, and
which had been mach panegyrised, namely, that the
petitions from the Clergy had come from those with
mitres on their heads and in their heeds —( Loud
cheers of Near, from the Opposition benches.)—Those
expressions he had termed grossly calumnious ;
(Chars continued.)—and from that opinion he did not
.depart.__

Sir R. HERON explained as to what he had said
respecting the Bishop of Lincoln, and read passages
from the publication, to confirm the opinion he had
expressed in a former stage of the debate.
The Hon. F. ROBINSON explained. His objec-
tion was to the expressions relative to Clergymen with
mitres on their heads, and mitres in their heads, which
he conceived to be a groas calumny.
Mr. PONSONBY animadverted on the critical
nicety which had been evinced, and noticed an attack
on a Prelate as respectable as the Bishop of Lincoln
(the Bishop of Norwich), which had been nude
from the other side.

Mr. CROKER spoke to order, and said, that all
reflexions had been disavowed by Mr. Peele.—( Mr.
Crider himself was here called to Ord, r).
Mr. PONSONBY proceeded. It was always his
study to keep within the limits of order, as due to him-
self, and to the Speaker, and to the House. He ex-
tenuated the ardent conduct of the Catholics, who
were goaded by the efforts of the press, employed
against them, though he would not accuse the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Peek) of so directing them. The
press in Ireland, h ,wever, as far as it was in favour of
Government, was full of slander and vituperation of
the Catholics. As to the Catholic principles 'being
the same now as 150 years ago ; he knew not what
security could be asked, which they did not offer.
Security was demanded that the spiritual authority
should not encroach upon the temporal concerns ; but
the Catholics swore that no Pope, nor priest, nor fu.

!sty 130faif1f4,taci, Of thigiit tieVi, any iedipatet
power within these realms. Wee• I they eetieve'his
oath or nit ? If not then the Cat'iolic w iselanger.
ous from religion, and Monstrous from the infi Wire
of his oath, not dittinguishing between tenth and
falsehood. Was the Pope to use his power by r rising
an army, and persuading the Catholics to Assist him ?
or by combining withioreign pnwers, and Jeh tuching
the minds of the King's saejects ? Was it to be by
open' force, by conspiracy and cabal, Or by treason,
or how ? Two efforts had been made to get secnrie
ties. First, the Pete, which had not been (elite the
-jured by the Catholics, and, therefore, might pet-
sibly be revived. Secondly, domestic nomiletion,
which the Learned Gentleman (Sir William Scrate,
with a tender care and jealous anxiety for the
consistency of the Catholics thotight quite iereconci.
'table with their faith, and :erased disposed to con-
vince them, that they could not gratify the House on
that subject. When any thing likely to be palatable
was proposed, it was etatel to be against their teli-
gion ; and then securities were called for, which it
was 'known to be impossible to give. Mr. P insonley
here read part of the Catholic Prayer-book, on the
subject of mental reservation and eqiiivocition, to
shew the fallacy of the charges made Against the Ca-
tholics on those subj cts. He contrested the fabri-
cations against the Catholics, with those imputel to
them. Fie did not think the diversity of opinions roe
selecting Mr. l'ie's sentiments very complimentere to
that Right Hon. Gentlemen, whe he believed. thought
this measure wise and prudent. It was said the ques-
tion must not be forced • certainly not, but much
good hid been done. oythe repeated Jis.ussions; and
be believed that the m ijority of the persons of educe.,
tions and property in this country were fist )usable to
the examination of it by the wisdem of P aiiement,
whose decision in its favour would give them great
satisfaction. Had he lived at the Revolueoo, he
should have voted f hr zanily strict en sett/lents, think,
ing the Catholics et that time will icill!y to liberty ;
though now we might to recollect, th it die fury of
Puritanical I iws bed left them no refuge, but in the
arms of the Crown. If restored to their former rights
they never could look back to the period of that re-
storation, without recognizing it as the work of the
popular branch of the Legislature—they must owe
it to the Constitution. flow could they be dispoied to
betray that which restored to them their liberties and
privileges ? Now, Protestants aided them' in their
petitions : if they manifested a disposiien contrary to
Weeny, would that be the case Would not a Pro-
testant majority be able to re-enact their disabilities ?
Suppose not all that was asked, bet that something
gracious were dcMc in a Committee, was it to be
maintained that it would render the Catholics more
discontented ? What authority had Gentlemen for
saying so ? That they would apply to Parliament
again was a matter he would not dispute. It was
not in human nature that they should not do so,
while the doors of Parliament were open, and they
laboured under disqualifications. If in the Com-
mittee, Parliament shewed a conciliatory disposi.
tion, they would confer as great a benefit On the
empire as it had received for ages paste Often as
the Catholics had importuned them, they had -never
yet received this favour at their hands. It would
of itself be a prodigious advance In the cause....
He hoped that all Who voted for the Conunittee
would do so, in the same spirit expressed by the Noble
Lord, namely, to find oat something satisfactory :
he beseeched those who had other views, to vote
against the Committee, as infinitely better, and more
manly; not raising hopes, and then sinking them in
cruel disappointment. One great object of a Com-
mittee was, to hear what' every Gentleman had to
propose en this subject ; and it was the .only Pare
liamentary mode of proceeding. As soon as the
House should shew a sincere dispos,tion to grant
to the Catholics all that could be &anted, consist.
ently with the security of the State and established
Church, then, he conceived, it would be the duty of
the Catholics to give up for conciliation every thing
.which they could fairly give up, consistently with
their faith and their religion. He had told the No.
ble Lord last year, in the case of America, that if
she would not accept of the conciliatory measures
offered by this country, he should support Ministers
in the war, and he had kept his word. tie shoiddl
uow assure him, that if the Ministers should fairly do
all that was reasonable to conciliate the Catholics,
and they should reject the boon, he would Support
the Minister, even if that support should exclude him
from power fur his life, and establish the Noble Lord
(Lord Castlereagh) in it. He could make the same
declaration for all his friends who sat about them.
He well knew their honourable minds, and that they
only valued power as a means of rendering service
to the country.
[ After Mr. PONSONBY had sat down, several
Members rose, but the House loudly calling on Mre
CAtextec, the other Gentlemen gave way te
Mr. CANNING said, that being called
t'ie manner he h.d been by the Right
and Learned Gentleman (Sir William Sct
rebuked by him for having continued so long
he thought that it might appear necessary
an explanation to the House on that poi
should have thought that he rather owed
logy to the House for now speaking, before
heard the sentiments of many other Gentler
were probably inclined to speak, than for
so loryg to give his opinion. On many Of
questrens which were agitated in that Hot.
often doubtful on which side the but-risen of
rested ; but on the present occasion, he thou;
could be no such doubt. The hurthen of
clearly rest on those who meant to content
House should not redeem the pledge which
given last year. In a case of such ;treat im
when we stood commiited to the Ca:holic,
sures of conciliation, end to the Proteztaot
rity, he would not say that it was impose.
reasons might not have occurred to shew
that the course they were about to adopt
to be prejudizial ; but until such reasons were
ced, the presumption must be, that tlet cot
the House had last year resolved on by a g
rity was the properone to pursue. Thinkillee
motion arose out of, and might be considee
of the resolution which tht, I Inuit had col
year upon his motel'', he did not think the
bete bound 'Ton the present occasion to
ward any reesens to induce the House to,
own act. He had waited for the objection,
I Gentlemen, to avoid trespassing upon the

is

y t.) him.]
led upon in:
itinourable I
Scott), and,
long silent,
ry to make
point. He
',el an apot
Fore he had
lemen, who',
or delAy ins
ether great!
Rise, it was
the proof
ought these
Frr of must
nd th.it are
ch they 114
iniport.ince,
Ics fur rues=
its for sccia,
tliar
the House
t wa; lik :y
were prool.ll.
f 'UT Ne which
Brat
'lx the pit ,ent
4:11.1,1
.nne to lid
that he kid
o bring f
confirm its
on! of other
Howe with