Star.
London, England, 1809-05-12 00:00:00

tiffisrmation to the House, and he was at a lasi nothing, more than the Constitution—and they desir-
to compare what information he had given which ed reform not for the subversion but for the establish-
couldJustfy the ettraordinary proceedings he meant ment of the Constitution.. The Noble Lord (Milton)
to institute. He lave information which no Magis- seemed to think that as this was an established prac-
trate ?mold reee; as evidence against a private in- tice—a sort of trade which had been regularly carried
dividoal. For these reasons lie opposed the motion. on by every Government for a long period, he should
Mr. CURWEN had never risen in that House in not think the less of the Ministers now accused,
more difficulty, because his wishes and his duty in- even though the charge should be proved. He per-
clined him each to adopt a difrerent line of conduct. haps agreed with the Noble Lord in that sentiment.
His wishes prompted him to put an end to this ques- —But at the same time what inference the country
tion at once ; but a sense of duty made' him feel that would draw from such an opinion, the friends of cor-
Soniethig was due on such an occasion to the dignity ruption ought well to consider. They ought to be-
of that House, to the nature of the charge, and to the ware of having a rooted conviction established in the
character of Parliament. He agreed with the Noble country, that corruption Was become so common
Lord behintLhim (Lord Milton) that the more eli- with respect to seats in that House, that it had ceas-
gible tbutie would be to refer the charge to a Corn- ed to be there regarded as an offence ; or would they
mime above stairs. The charge was of such a na- with sound of trumpet through the land proclaim that
tore, that if the Hon. Member had brought it for. not to be corrupt is the shame I But, if they meant
ward lightly, or upon weak grounds, or should fail to deny the existence of such corruption, let them
in substantiating it, much injury must be the conse- I come to the proof. It was impossible, surely, con-
goatee to the public. He did not himself believe that 1 sistently, to maintain that corruption was not mis.
the Hon. Member would have brought forward chievous ; for the Committees appointed by the
this charge having good grounds for it. The ; House itself had constantly been exposing and repro-
House was placed in an embarrassed situation by 'bating such abuses.' The principles which he had al-
this charge, which consisted of two parts: the . ways possessed did not rest merely on any theoretical
first ws.s that of undue influence used to bias the conclusions of his, but were to be found in the Statute
votes of Members of that House; the second, that Books. His object was to restore the Constitution to
corrupt means had been employed to procure the that purity which it ought to have, and which it
return of Members to Parliament. The charge he was understood to possess in theory. All he now
considered a grave one, and if the House should pass said was, that if one of the organs by which the con-
it over without notice, he must think that it had dealt stitution was administered was corrupt, it was impos-
out a hard measure of severit to his Royal Highness sible that the constitution could be sound in practice,
the Duke of York ; and yet if this charge should be whatever it might be in theory. A charge of car-
gone into, it was impossible to say where the investi- ruption in procuring returns to that House had been
gation of such charges would end. If there had been brought against two of its Members. If the House
endeavours made to create an improper feeling in the refused to proceed to inquire into the truth of the al-
country, he should condemn it as much as any man ; legations, the manifest conclusion would be, what
but he was persuaded th..t the sentiments which had had been already hinted at, that the offence was too
been expressed had sprung from the people ; and cer- ' common to be considered as a ground of punisk-
tainly not from any feeling of triumph over the illus- ment. One Gentleman had said that exclusive de-
trious person, whose case bad given rise to the expres- merit rested with the accused, and they therefore
sion of these sentiments. He could not suppose, that ought not to be exposed. That however was not a
the people of this country, who had, during the last : sort of defence that ought to be satisfactory, or that
25 years, manifested such an affectionate attachment ; would be satisfactory to the country. With regard
to their beloved Sovereign, could in this instance have ; to the Bill to prevent the Sale of Seats in that House,
been capable of such feelings with respect to one of proposed to be introduced by the Hon. Gentleman
his family. It was morally impossible that their sen- . near him (Mr. Curwen) he doubted whether its ef-
timents could have heed's* changed at once. The feet would not be to prevent the carrying on of. the
Hon. Gentleatt opposite (Mr. Cartwright),had said, ; trade' by individuals, and to throw it entirely into
that he was fot the existing state of things. For him- lihe hands of the Treasury. But the state of the
self he ckld say, that be was for the constitution, but !question was this, either we had a Representation or
not for its corruptions;
,and the best means of preser-i we had not. If we had not a real Representation of
ving that constitution would be to correct any abuses ! the people, we ought to procure it as soon as pos-
which may have crept into it. though a friend to i sible, for no succedaneum could answer the purpose,
rational reform, he did not think the present a proper I.whatever means might be devised for pr aping a
time for bringing forward this measure of Parliamens i corrupt and -rotten system. The Hon. Baronet on
tary Reform. That question would better be de. 1 the floor (Ski. Anstruther) had, in attempting to
ferred to another period. But no time could be un- i give a definition of the word ~ information," expres-
reasonable for the correction, and all our statutes ; sed a doubt whether he understood the English lan.
speak in a decided manner against corruptions. He ; guage. But whether he understood the English lan-
should wish, therefore, that the part of the charge guage or not, the Hon. Baronet seemed to have been
relative to influence exercised to sway the vote of an' very well acquainted with the feelings of the House.
individual Member of that House should be examined. IHe appeared to have had a notion that the feeling
If be, however, had any influence with the Hon. lof the House was against inquiry, and the cheers
Member, he would have dissuaded him from bring. j with which his speech had been received was a strong •
ing forward this motion ; because it may lead to ex- I proof of the accuracy of his opinion upon.that point.
posures wlsich might be attended with very injurious Much had been said with a view to shew (that the
consequences ; and the Hon. Member must have ob. I charge was not properly preferred. He, however,
served a disposition in the House to prevent such; (Sir Francis Burdett) thought there could be no
abuses as his charge referred to in future, from the I doubt that the charge was in itself founded upon the
reception which the measure he had the honour to I most constitutional principles, and brought forward
propose had met with. They should, if possible, 'in a way that was warranted by many Parliamentary
cast a veil over the past, and take measures to pre- precedents.
vent the recurrence of the evils complained of in fu. Mr. D. GIDDY thought that those who were so
ture. He lamented the vote he should be obliged to loud in the condemnation of corruption did not suffi.
give for the motion of the Honourable Member. But ciently distinguish between corruption properly so
he was in such a situation, that he must do it, or do called and the influence which property would always
nothing. have in every well regulated society. The influence
Mr. BIDDULPH supported the motion, which in of property was one which ought to prevail as well
his conception
.related in no way to Parliamentary as that of ability. He would always be glad to have
Reform. He never adopted the opinion that all pub. some em vent Lawyers in the House—to see Gentle-
lie men were corrupt; but whether the assertion were men of the Army and Navy there. The Landed In-
true or false, the lIP,t war of deciding it was by in- terest oujht unquestionably to have its full weight,
vestigation.. • but he saw no reason why those who had their for-'
Sir F. BURDETT said, that on a question which tunes in chattles or money should be excluded. He
so nearly concerned the character and honour of the saw no reason why some of the Directors of the East
House, he was anxious to hear the
Theoiions of persons India Company should not pOssess seats in that House,
of more experience than himself.subject under since they had important interests to defend.—( Hear,
consideration was one of the most important that Bear ! in one quarter, and a laugh in another.)—
could engage the attention of Parliament; and one There, never was a question of importance discussed
' whi& the character of the House was more invol- in that House, without a proof that the interests af.
•. by it had some persons to represent them. Mr.
to e point of order, he would undertake to shew, D. G. also 'remarked, that under this system the
he
that hi whatever point' of view it was considered, the country, in spite of all dm wars in which it had been
conduct of his Hon. Friend, as well on this as on a I engaged, had flourished. Every town had been im.
former occasion, was strictly parliamentary, and that I proved ; new harbours had been constructed ; and
it was supported by usage and precedent. He had i manufactures and trade increased together—blessings
written down a great variety of precedents, in order not to be rashly risked for any painful schemes of re-
to prove the accuracy of this assertion, which, how. form.—(Hear; Hear, from Mr. Windham.)—At the
ever, from the turn which the debate bad. taken, he same time where corruption was proved to exist, he
did not think it necessary to state: The Hen. Baronet , would concur in aidopting the proper means to check
col:tended that they used a most unwarrantable liberty I it, always, however, distinguishing between corrup-
. .

with the inquisitorial powers of that House who could
ascribe any motives to hit Hon. Friend except a con-
scientious and discharge of his duty. It had
been decided in the House of Commons, that that
House was . bound to receive information upon a
subject of this nature, and to act upon-that informa-
tion, even upon common report. How much. more
was the House bound to act upon that which was
known by most and believed by all (Hear, hear !)
4--He would be glad to hear any Gentleman on the
other side get up, and lay his hand upon his heart,'
and say that he did not believe the existence of such
practices as those which were now charged—practices
which tended to• give the most mortal stab to the
character of that House. If it was possible for any
Gentleman there to defend such things, as to contend
that these practices, which were pregnant with de-1
struction to the Constitution, formed part of the Con-
stitution itself, then he must say that Bonaparte had
a better ally within these walls than he had any
where else. (Loud cries of hear, hear, from Me Mini;te-1
rial side of the house.) He was nut surprised to be met
with a " hear, hear I" from men professing the same
principles which had brought other nations to de-
struction—other nations, the principal object of whose
governments had been to subdue their own subjects
instead of their foreign enemies. He desired the Gen- ,
tlemen wkio were so ready to call out hear, hear,"
to sliew him any Government which had of late been
subverted by its own sui.ajects, except throu4h that
apathy which the errors of such Governments had
created as to the career of a foreign enemy. The Hon.
Baronet further observed, that what he and those who
were actuate.i by the same principles demanded, was

. •
always existed in the hest times of tlie country.-
-It was one of the means by which vigour was in-
fused into the Constitution ; and, for his part, so
far would he be from denying, that he gloried th.it
he did belong to a party, ever since he had the ho-
nour of a seat in that House. There was no ne-
cessity at this time to bring forward any question
of Refill-me The only Reform that could be safely
practicable, was that which consisted in a gradual
melioration and correction of abuses which might
be observed to grow up, and he thought the two bills
then before the House, that brought in by the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, and the other by an Honou-
rable Member (Mr. Curwen), were at present fully
adequate to answer that purpose. He,could not dis-
cover those enormous abuses in the Constitution which
had been so much dwelt upon by Honourable Gen-
tlemen. On the contrary, he believed there never
was a period when England stood so high in every
respect as at this moment. It was as free now as at
any former,period. The country abounded in wealth
and industry. Her resources were abundant ;—her.
strength greater than ever it was ; and a martial'
spirit pervaded all' elasses of people, which would
make them invincible. ( Hear ! hear!) He believed
that the cry of Reform which had lately been raised,
originated in the great pressure of taxation which fell
upon the people. But the people ought to recollect
that this taxation was indispensibly necessary for
their safety ; and that a Ref rm in Parliament would
not make their burdens one shilling less than they
were at this moment. The Right Honourable Gen-
' tleman expressed his wish that the motion might be
put into a shape which might stand clear and intelli-
gible on the journals.
The SPEAKER pointed out the various modes
in which such motions might be put ; and, in conse-
quence of his suggestion, the question was stated in
a Erm to answer the intended purpose.
Mr. WHITBREAD expressed his astonishment to
hear the measure of Parliamentary Reform objected
to by his Right Hon. Friend in point of time—the
mare so as that objection was grounded upon the
same arguments which his Right Hon: Friend, he,
and others, had on former occasions to encounter
from the other side of the House. With regard to
the public meetings, from which declarations of opi.
nion had been published upon the subject of the deci-
sion of the House relative to the conduct of the Duke
of York, he maintained the right of the people to ex-
press their opinion upon any public question, asserting
that there were numbers among the public who were
as competent to form a correct opinion upon that, or
any other question, as the Members of that
To think otherwise on the part of the House, he
would consider as an indication of anogance and
folly. The people had the whole of the evidence
before them with respect to the transaction alluded
to, and upon that evidence they thought proper to
come to a conclusion directly contrary to that of the
House. Was it to be wondered at then that such a
conclusion, and the considerations connected with it,
'should have induced the mind of the countryto conceive
that all was not right in that House, and that some
reform in the representation was necessary. As to
the attack which it was alledged was systematically.
made upon public men, he wished to know whether
serious disposition to every gross attack did not pre-
vail against those who were anxious to expose and
punish abuses, even more than against those who
were supposed to profit by the existence of such abuses.
He remembered, not many nights ago, to.have heard
it stated in that House by an Honourable Gentleman
that he would rather be Mrs. Clarke with all her
vices, than pursue the conduct of the HonouraEle
Gentleman who brought her forward. This he of-
fered as a specimen of what those were liable to who
struggled upon the side of the people, and as some
counterpoise to the murmuring of those Gentlemen
who felt so very indignant at accusations, accoMpa-
nied by an offer of proof, which still they would not
suffer the House to receive. So that although their
pride was hurt, and their character impeached, they
would not allow their principles to be vindicated....
Although he supported the motion, as he would any
measure connected with Reform, or the correction of
abuses, there were two points in which he differed
from those so pointedly alluded to by his Right Hon.
Friend ; for he neither disclaimed party, nor did he
profess that extraordinary purity which was described
as a cloak fur mischievous designs. Giving every
man credit for all the integrity that he could consis-
tently claim, he believed there vras no public man
whatever whose motives were not of a mixed nature,
His own motives he confessed to be of that charac.
ter, and still he believed himself as.well disposed to
do good as any other man—and in the prosecution of
that good he would not suffer his mind to be ward
by popularity either within or without doors. Parlia-
mentary Reform he conceived to be the greatest good
the country could experience, and therefore he sought
for it. He thought it necessary, iu order to prevent

tion, and that just and proper influence which ought I convulsion ; but he never did think, nor did he ever
to be inseparable from property. I gay, that it would operate like enchantment, as a
Mr. TIERNEY regretted the difficulty he was I panacea for all evils. He never was deluded by the.
placed in upon this occasion as to the opinion he I cries, but looked
.for that Reform only which was
should give, in consequence of the motion not being I sought for by so many great men, by Mr. Blackstone*
in a tangible shape. With respect to the charge now Iby Dr. Paley, by Mr. Fox, by Mr. Pitt, and many
preferred against two of his Majesty's Ministers, he others. If these great men could now be communi-
must say that there appeared no ground whatever for I catod with, if one of them at least was enabled tp offer
making any charge against Mr. Perceval ; but if the i his advice, sure he was that that wise man, whose prin.
facts stated respecting Lord Castlereagh were true, it ciples he contracted at his outset in political life, Would
was incumbent on the House to take the subject up, strongly recommend the conduct he was now pursuing..
and adopt some proceeding on it. Some allusions ' Several Gentlemen, particularly about the Ministerial
had been made to those Gentlemen who were now Bench, had, he recollected, professed their resolution
most active in calling for reform ; and tiley were held to wage war with corruption ; but if such a case as that
up to the public as persons of great political virtue. thou before the House did not rouze them to act, he
For his part he would join in rit• such praise.— ; could not conceive when they would give battle.—
Those Gentlemen, in their endeavour to court popu. ' Here were two Ministers of State accused of receiv.
larity, affected to despise and to decry all parties, both ing money for a seat in that House, calling upon the
those that were in administration and these in opposi- person purchasing such seat to vacate, because he
tion. They also asserted that they belonged to no would not vote against his conscience. How the
party ; but, in fact, they were themselves a party with money arising out of the purchase had been disposed
a leader at their head, and a party of the most objec- ot, the House was yet to learn. The Chancellor of
tionable kind, because they wanted to do away those the Exchequer had talked of the violations of social
things which constituted the best safeguards cf the confidence in thh disclosure of this transaction. But
constitution. Whatever opinions he might fo;.merly in fact there was no -social confidence in the case
have entertained on the subject of Patliamentary Re- on the part of his Honourable Friend. The infor.
form, he would now declare it as his first opinion, mation he received he laid, as was his duty, before
that the present was a most improper time to the House, and it was for the House to decide how
agitate the question ; and to bring forward any mo. it would act for the preservation of its own honour
tion for Parliamentary Reform might be productive and character. But it was pretende,„' that as there
of very serious mischief. The persons then whO was such a disposition to abuse public men, it was
pretended that they belonged to no party, could not ; here proper to make a stand against inquiry. What,
have any good motives in agitating such a measure. in such a flagrant case ? The 1 r:sent Ministers would
—As to party in Parliament, it was a thing which ' not determine upon snob a staid in:the instance of the