Star.
London, England, 1809-04-28 00:00:00

AGAINST THE SCOTS RECORDS BILL.

/

1.-

PARLIAMEA7ARr PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 27.

The Navy Compassionate List Bill went through a Committee
ari was reported.
Some private Bills was brought up from the Commons, by
Mr. Gooch, Mr. Charles Duncla, Sir Martin Foulkes, Sir James
Graham, Mr. Calcraft, and other Members, and read a first
time.
Mr. Owen presented some East India Accounts, and Mr. Pil-
!er the Third Report of the Surveyor-General of the Land Re-
venue, which were ordered to lie on the Table.
COMMISSARY AND COMMISSARY-CLERK OF ABERDEEN

Mr. CILLIT s was heard as Counsel for the Commissary and
Commissary Clerk of Aherdeen against the Scots Records Bill.
On the Motion of Lord Redesdale, the order for the third read-
ing this day was discharged, and the Bill ordered to be read a
third time to-morrow.
IMPRISONMENT FOR DEPT.

The Earl of MOIRA presented the Report of the Committee
on imprisonnment for debt. His Lordship observed, that the
evils detailed in the Report were such, that be conceived any Ad-
ministration must see the necessity of applying... remedy. He
moved, that the Report be printed.
Lord REDESDALE did not rise to oppose the Motion, but
to state, that the Report had not his concurrence; and whenever
the discussion of it should come on, he should take the oppor-
tunity of stating his dissent to some of the positions advanced
in It.
The Earl of MOlfi4 contended, that the inferences drawn
by the Committee were deduced from evidence, which was
irrefragahle ; and be thought the Noble and Learned Lord
would find it extremely difficult to disprove the existence of the
evil.
Lord REDESDALE,In explanation, said be did not mean to
deny the existence of some evil, or the propriety of applying a
remedy where such evil existed ; hut to itite bis dissun to some
•f the positions advanced by the Committee.
The Report was ordered to be printed.
Adjourned till to-morrow (this day).

A- .... i".••••••••'•.. iintant-General's (Mee, with instructions that if the 1
OAK TIMBER.—NORTHAMPTONSHIRE. papers were not there, they should be finnished by
TO BE SOLD BY PRIVATE CONTRACT, the Adjutant General who acted with the army while
ABOUT SIX HUNDRED OAK TREES, fit fer in Spain. As to the second objection he said, that
Naval ratposesoviih their Top and Lop, (but not the bark); Sir John Moore would have•said nothing to the army
•now growing in the :asi,abourhood of Oundle, and of the Navi.
which he would be ashamed to shew to all the world.
ribfe River Nen. TheTi'lsl'ter may be viewed, and particulars had,
by applying to Mr. C. Berkeley, at Oundle.—Particulars tray These orders would throw' the clearest light on the
also he had of °Mr. Pitliner, Baker's Coffee-house, I.ondon. state of *le army, at the time they were issued, and
were !mist important with a view to the approaching
..__

discussion.
Mr, ABERCROMBIE could not impute to the
Noble Lord any intention to injure the memory of Sir
John Moore ; but thought there was no foundation
whatever for his objections. He then ►epeated in sub-
stance the observations of the last speaker, as to the
facility of procuring the documents moved for, and.
their importance with a view to the approaching dis
cussion. Sir. John Moore never wrote or expressed
any opinion of the army, which he would shrink from
exposing. An idea prevailed out of the House, that
there was much confusion in the retreat, and that it
was like a disgraceful flight. It was of the greatest
consequence to have a clear and distinct account of
the real state of the case ; and these orders would
shew that if the idea was well founded, the blame
rested not with Sir John Moore but somewhere else.
As to hurting the feelings of the army, he considered
this asone of the weakest arguments that eotild be used.
If the General issued proper reproofs, and if those
who were the subject of these reprook circulated ca-
lumnies against the Commander, it was not only just
but expedient that the real Allah should be knoss'n,
and that the proper remedy should be applied. There
never was a case where Ministers had left so much
responsibility with the Commander ; but the friends
of Sir John Moore were not disposed to object to that
responsibility, if these orders were produced. The
responsibility of marching through Portugal by land
rested with Sir John Moore. It would appear that
he had adopted that plan; partly with 4 view to pre-
pare the army to meet the enemy in the field. This
succeeded so well, that when the junction was formed
between the army of Portugal and that from Cerunna
the former was by far in the best condition. He did
not by this mean to make any invidious comparison,
. The difference arose from the circumstances in which
Sir John Moore was placed, of which circumstances
he took advantage. It was incumbent on the Go.
vernment to take every opportunity of doing justice
to the memory of the Officer whom they had em-
ployed.
Mr. 1-lORNER could scarcely believe that the Mi-
nisters would'persisc in opposing the motion, if they
had no better arguments to produce against it.
Lord CASTLEREAGH repeated that all that
was material to lay a foundation for the discussion
of the point to which these Orders referred, had al-
ready appeared in the Extract of Sir John Moore's
Dispatch.
The House then divided—Ayes 37-Noes 62.
Majerity against the motion 25.
MR. FRERE'S LETTERS..

Mr. EDEN rose to make the motion of which he
had given notice. He said that on the 3d of Decem-
ber Mr, Frere wrote to Sir John Moore, mentioning
the disposition of the people of Madrid to defend the
place, and requesting Sir John Moore to delay his
intended retreat. This letter he dispatched by a
Frenchman, and General Moore received it on the 5111
December. He received, at the same time, a dispatch'
from the Junta of Madrid, and this. was the paper of
which by 1-is motion, he wished to have a copy laid
before the House, or at least so much of it as iniht
with safety be produced.—lt had been intimated to
him by the Right Honourable Secretary (Mr. Can-
do;;), that Ministers had not possession of this pa-
per : he happened, however, to have himself a cor-
rect copy of it, and would, with leave of the House,
:cad it as part of his speerb, which he did, and it
purported to be a dispatch from the Junta of Madrid,
dated ‘2‘l December, signed Castel l'ieinco and Don
'Fhomas Morla ; and stated to Sir John Moore, " that
Castanos was advancing- to Madrid with an army of
23,000 men—that 10,000 men, or another army, were
also on their march to Madrid—that the people were
determined to defend it, and they had nothing to fear
from the French ; and concluded by pressing Sir J.
Moore to advance with his army to join and support
that under Castanos." On that very day it was to be
observed, Don Thomas Morla had an interview with
the French General, the Duke of Istria, and on the
very next day the French took quiet possession of
Madrid. Whelller Morla acted from ignorance or
treachery, he could not have employed' a better in-.
strument than Mr. Frere's letter. This dispatch had
been received on the same day as Mr. Frere's, and
there was every reason to suppose it was intended to
lure General Moore and his whole army to their ruin.
That gallant General had received orders from his
Maksty's Ministers to attend to the requisitions of
Mr. El-ere and the Junta of Madrid ; and it was a
most providential circumstance that the gallant Ge-
neral did not allow himself to be drawn into the
snare, to which either the ignorance or credulity of
Mr, Frere had rendered him liable. It appeared that
Sir John Moore had attended to Mr. Frere's repre-
sentation ; for by part of a letter which he wrote in
August, he refers to this dispatch of the Junta of Ma-
driti, and says, he had ordcrcd Sir David Baird to
fall back upon Astorga. It was therefore of impor-
tance to have a copy of this dispatch. The remaining
part of his motion would be for the extraordinary cor-
respondence between Mr. Frere and Sir John Moore.
He ..eaeluded by moving for " a copy of •a letter
from the Junta of Madrid, referred to in a letter of
Sir John Moore-to Mr. Frere, dated the 6th Decem-
ber, 1808."
Mr. Secretary CANNING said, he would restate
what he had bdere intimated to the .Honourable
Gentleman, that the paper was not. in the office, and
could not therefore be produced. It seemed the pa-
per read by the Honourable Gentleman was a copy
of !hat moved for. He did net interrupt' him in his
seech, nor call him to order fur reading it, as he
had been by a Right Honourable Gentleman oppo-
site on former occasion. lie did not mean to.com-
plain of what had been done, but should content
himself with repeating, that it was not in his power
to produce the paper moved for. As to the other
part of the motion, the papers were not in his depart-
ment.
Mr. TIERNEY said, there was a great difference
between the case of the present motion and that allu-
ded to by the Right Honourable Gentleman. He
had not called his Honourable Friend to order, be-
cause he had done nothing-that deserved it; and when

S

he called the Right Honourable Gentleman to 6rder
on a former account, it was not for reading a copy of
any single document, but garbled extracts of several
documents which were in his exclusive possession,
and which no person on his side of the House (Mr.
Tierney's) had it in his power to contraaiCt or r(Fute.
—He thought the House was obliged to his Honour-
able Friend for having brought forward the motion.
Mr. Frere had either kept a bad 100k-out, or been ex-
tremely credulous ; and he hoped if the Right Hon.
Gentleman could do it, he would produce the dis-

patch in question, As the other pipers were not in
his depart►nent, he should say nothing further of them

the issuing of EBO,OOO in the coarse of
sions, for the purpose of defraying thi
transporting the Royal Family of Po:
dominions in South America.
NEWSPAPERS.
The House having, on the motioi
Ktssos, resolved into a Committee, for
revising the 3,7 th Geo. 111. respecting
Mr. HUSKISSON stated, that at
Act was put in force, the price of tie
was only 441. each, and that the a(
since imposed, of IA-d. rendered it imi
persons concerned in this trade to deri
from it, if it were not permitted to
above Gd. In consequence of this,
allowed in 1797, of 12 per cent. whit
nue, provided the price of the Newsp:
teed Gd. From the present extravaga)
terials necessary for a Newspaper,
Gentleman contended that the situa:
soils engaged in this trade was by no
as in the year 1797. There were t,
lief open, he observed, which were, e
the discount altogether, and thus tnl(
the paper optional, or to raise the
the discount should be allowed. Th(
he would submit to the House wouh
bring in a Bill to alter an Act, limit:
newspapers at which, discount shot
He believed, from the state of the
would be found necessary to raise tl
In 1801, though-the duties were tic
was an allowance of 41-cl per cent.
He had already apprised the Hence
serious advance in the articles of prii
since that period At that time th,
might be estimated at leorn 38s. to
—at present the rate was frcm
sand ; all other articles, and journ
were in the same exorbitant propert
rise would not diminish the number
were so productive to the public 7
stamps urn newspapers for the la,
duced two millions. He then prop(
for a Bill to amend so much of the
Mr. G. JOHNSTON said, he wa,
this suggestion of his Right Hon.
disposed to think it was proper to tae
: entirely. For his part, he believed •
newspapers were carrying on a trs
that'it would tr ithorise an increase •
Imeans. He argued, that the inc
" stamps proved there was no necese
couragernent. •
Mr. HUSKISSON did not this
down any article of trade to a eerta,
." be a hardship, he said, to take off
s yet confine the: price of the paper to
conceive that there was an increasa-
Morning Papers of the metropolis.
, quiry to this effect of the Commissi
Lottery speculation, he wag incline
I was 'mended with greater risk tiia.
T . . If it was intended to bind
agreement of 1797, he was of
should be permitted to raise their se
The CHANCELLOR of the
observed, that at .the time the disc(
1 the restriction was irnprev.al. His
I (Mr. Johnston) had allowed it woi
when the trade became mole extee
should be hound, unless there were
tages to counterbalence the addition
his Honourable Friend had assume(
of newspapers ; but it would he
only lay in the half weekly and
or such as were sold not at the
•
These were not at the original
• -..
by other papers, as they could
from. those papers. Others carriei
I different principle ; they wholly
ladvertisements ; and from the earl
they were published,. they could nei
bute much to the instruction or
readers, paleicularly with regard
House, which frequently lested till
It was not, he observed, a willing
Chancellor of the Exchequer, or Sea
• sury, to propose a rise in any other
increase tliderevenue ; he would,
by concurring in the sentiments of
able Frnd.
The House having resumed, tin
atm leave given to bring in a bill
Mr. CURWEN further postpone
Bill to prevent the sale of seats in
attaching penalties thereto.
SALE OF OFFICES.
The order of the day for going into a Committee
on the Office Sale Prevention Bill being read,
,Lord FOLKSTONE said, that in consequence Of
a motion which his Honourable Friend (Mr. Curnen)
had given notice of, he did not mean to introduce tae
clause ince this Bill which he originally intended.
Mr. lIORNER, at some length, stated the au-
thorities winch since the Act of Edward VI. on that
subject, had all concurred on the necessity of abolish•
ing the sale of places in the administration of the Lira
In the reign of George 11. a Committee, at the sug-
gestion of Parliament itself, and, in the year 179,
a Committee of Finance, recommended, he said, to
the House of Commons, that those offices should not
be allowed to be saleable. How it happened that :ill
these authorities had been 'disregarded, and the ex-
ception yet existed, he could not possibly say. There
was a voluminous body of suggestions on this head,
which like many others on the table of that Housc,
were inefficiently made. It was not his intention .it
this period to introduce into the present Bill ally tieing
upon the subject. In his opinion it should be made .t
subject of distinct consideration. Somet!,ing migia
arise out of the third report of the present finaece
Committee, for at a further stage of the present ses-
sion, which may be favonrable to the object he had in
view. It was some time since, he said, suggested
that there ought to be no delay in making the &aloe'
of the Puisne Judges more adequate to their situations
than it was ; why this had not been carried into effete
he could not imagine.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEP.
knew of no subject more deserving of consideratiee
than that on which the Hon. Gentleman had saoker(•
But it should not be entered, upon too hastily ; :r
should be attended with previous inquiry. As evee
thing was to be done prospectively, it should be doe=
Ttith all possi§le circumspection. He had himsc;f, ja

then.
Mr. Secretary CANNING in explanation said, the
dispatch alluded to had been sent by Don T. Morla
fr:m Madrid, from that part of the Junta left there ;
but Mr. Frere had accompanied the Junta when they
left Madrid,and went to de la Raina, so that he might
know nothing of it.
Lord HENRY PETTY could perfectly compre-
hend that the dispatch might be sent from Madrid,
but he hardly thought the Right Hon. Secretary had
attended to all that had been said by his Honourable
Friend. There were two letters from Mr. Frere, and
the motion went to the dispatch accompanying those
letters.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he was not in pos-
session of any such information as that stated by Mr.
Eden. He denied expressly, that Charmilly had been
sent into Spain by his recommendation.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, the motion had pro-
duced two things which had surprised him, the speech
of the Right Hon. Secretary, and to find that the
Noble Lord near him was still his colleague. The
Noble Lord continued one of his Majesty's`Ministerse
but he should remember that the sturdy oak fre-
quently fell a sacrifice to the storm, while the mare
pliant bulrush bent beneaea it in security.
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, whatever his inten-.
thin might be, the opinioneef the Hon. Gentleman
would ;sever have the least weight with him.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, he believed, that whatever might be the stir-
prize of the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr.
Whitbread), it was confined solely to himself ; and
the conduct of the whole House had evinced that they
thought his Noble Friend had no intention whatever
to act contrary to the privileges of the House ; and
there was not, therefore, any reason, why his Noble
Friend Should gratify the Honourable Gentleman by
resigning.
General TARLETON said that he had heard Boel
naparte once called the Child and Champion of Jaco- '
bintsm, now he would call t.!,e Noble Lord the Child]
wed Champion of Office. He wished to relate a story"
of Colonel Charmilly which had come to his know....
ledge, and which would tend to set that Gentleman's,
character in a clear point of view to the House, He
had been acquainted with a Mr. Devereux, a Cathoe:
lie Delegate, from where this Colonel Charmilly had:,
unfairly won a sum of money. Mr. Devereux, in-
dignant
at this treatment, came to him. (General !
Tarleton), to be the bearer of a challenge.
Mr. W. STUART called the Hon. Gentleman io '
order.
The SPEAKER said it was for the House to cee .1
skier, as the name had been mentioned, wheth._.
should enter into the merits of a character ..hp had
been introduced incidentally, and respe.tiee. whom
no particular notice had been given.
General TARLETON said he tie....eht it his duty
to detail the anecdote, in order that the character of I
Sir John Moore might be effectually cleared.
motion was here read from the Chair.
General TARLETON proceeded.—lt appeared
that this Colonel Charmilly had been the bearer of!
the dispatch to Sir J. Wore ; he therefore came be-
fore the }l.-.use in that kind of military diplomatic
character. Now when. this Colonel Charmilly was
charged with his conduct to Mr. Devereux, what did I
he do ? Why, simply denied ever having played with
Mr. D. at all. The business was not proceeded in,
owing to the interference of a very respectable man,e
the Compte de Vauderuil, who reeresented the total
ruin in which it must involve Colonel Chermillye—
Such was the man whcim Mr. Frere chose to euthe-
iise to interfere with Sir J.' Moore.
Mr. YORKE said a few words ; he was totally
4naudible in the gallery.-
Mr. EDEN shorty replied.
Mr. WHITBREAD and., Mr. CANNING mutn-
ally explained ; atter which the moron Nyas put and
negatived without a division.
SIR 11. IDALRYNIFLt.

Mr. PONSONBY said the object with which he.
rose to make his present motion was, that light might
be thrown un the conduct of Ministers with respect
to the campaign in Spain, and that the political in-
formation which they received relative to the state of
that country and Portugal might be before the House.
•He understood that Sir H. Dalrymple had no objec-.
tion that the papers, for which he was desirous, should
be made public. The Member for Cambi idgeshire
could correct him if be was wrong in this idea. He
then moved, 46 That an humble Address be presented
to his M ijesty, that there be laid before the Ho!ise
copies of nine letters, with their inclosures, addressed
from Sir H. Dalrymple to Lord Castlereagh, between
the Ist of March and the 4th of May, 1608, and of
the answers thereto.".
Mr. YORKE said, that Sir Hew Dalrymple had
no objection.
Lord CASTLEREAGH opposed the motion as
injurious to the public service: The papers moved
for were more of a political than a military nature,
and of course he was sure the House would not ac-
quiesce in the motion. He was anxious to do every
credit to. Sir H. Dalrymple, but he did nut conceive
that these letters were necessary for that purpose.
Mr. PONSONBY replied, that to answer the
Noble Lord's view, he would add to his motion, " as
far as it was not detrimental to the public service."—
He conceived that the political information which
Ministers had was particularly necessary to be known,
as upon that alone could depend the 'nature or neces-
sity of our assistance to Spain.
Lord CASTLEREAGH explained.
The motion was then negatived.
GRANT TO THE 'ROYAL FAMILY OF PORTUGAL!

Lord H. PETTY gave notice, that he would to-
morrow, as on that day the Army Extraordinaries
were to be submitted to the House, call the attention
of the House to the propriety of issuing money during
a Session, without the previous consent of Parliament.
The fait ea which his motion would be founded, was

OAK TIMBI
TO BE SOL
ABOUT SIX I
Naval putposes,
•now growing in the
phie River Nen. The
by applying to Mr.
I also he had of °Mr. Pi
I'
PARLIAM
• HOUS:
The Navy Compat
ari was reported.
Some private Bill:
Mr. Gooch, Mr. Cht
Graham, Mr. Calcr
time.
Mr. Owen present
!er the Third Report
venue, which were c
)1 COMMISSARY ANI
AGAINSI
Mr. CILLITS wat
Commist•ary Clerk
On the Motion of L
inn this day was di:
third time to-morrce
IMP
The Earl of MOI
on imprisonnment
evils detailed in the
ministration must s
moved, that the Re/
Lord REDESDA
to state, that the It(
the discussion of it
tunity of stating hit
in It.
Me Earl of MO
I ; by the Committee
irrefragahle ; and I
would find it eatren
evil.
Lord REDESDA
I I. deny the existence
remedy where such
• •f the positions adv
The Report was •
Adjourned ti
The LORD AD'
to-morrow of a MI
Militia Bill.
Sir T. T t 1 RTO/s
• an Insolvent Dttb:o;
'Fite Fourth Rept
venue of the Crowe
Table.
Mr. Johnstone,
brou .ht up an Aces
land for one year, c
• laid on the table.
Mr. FOSTER br
Beer in Ireland.—B
cond time on Mont
r VlVltif:

S.
tirgse. the expetnocetii.f:
gal
notion of Mr. Hes.
c, for the purpose i 7).
cting Newspapers,
tat at the time t:ii,
of the Nowsp;Ters,
the additional rititv
it impossible Crf tiic
:0 derive any benda
LI to raise the [rice
his, a discount wa-
. which was to conti-
ewspaper did not or-
.tvagant price of ma.
)er, the Right Hor.
situation ..; the per.
by no rnean.s govr
ere two modes of re
ore, either to take c 6
he
s to leave the prix:
'ii:omftP:eisthjoleioeltetrdfilotnirltfegbiti itslipttetroa‘\ •
mits
e for
l
should
price he
,arlel?otn.•11.
the present duties, it
:re double, yet then.
:rent. given on them.
. , .1.
), printing and paptzt
ne the price of paper
to 4Cs. toe theusan2.
CS's. to 659. th:: thou-
journeymen's wage.,
oporticn. The smlili
mber ef. parers Iv:licit
blic revenue that the
le lat.t rear had pr;...
proposed a Resolution
the I;7th of the King.
to was not pi ernri:d i‘‘4
Inn. Friend. 1-i? was
to take otf the discount
.:ved the Proprietors
a trade so beneficiai,
ease of revenue by tha
increased number
eeessi;y fur further ea-
: think it fair to bi;:d
certain price. lt would
e off the discount, and
?er to 6d. He did not
:rease. of stamps on t!..!
olis. He had made in-
mh.sioners. Except the
nclined to bel:::.ve e..»ie
• than tilat of a news-
bind ,•.-ietorsl4
is of they
.eir price.
the EXCHEOT77.I',.
discount 'was
Honourwble friend
it would be hard, that
extensive the traders
e were greater advae-
tdditiomil price. '11;3
ssumed on the increac
be found the intreasz
• and weekly p. per.,
t the regular pfce.—
mat e;rence incurred
oul collect material;
carried on trade on a
ally depended on their
e early licur at which
Ild net possibly contri—
or information of their
Raid to debates in that
!d fill such a late hour.
iiling office in either the
n. Secretary of the Tre;:-
. other way than would
uld, however, conclude
is of his Right Honour.
:1, the question was put,
bill accordingly.
sitttpsoinne
inanmiteinctn,
da
'FICES.
;oing into a CorcrliV.ce
Bill being read,
, that in consequence of
le Friend (Mr. Curw,m)
t mean to introduce tae
originally intended.
length, sta.ed the an-
of Edward VI. on that
themomi
nnri
seateiriltseiiot,
nyaoot
rtt;
hthbeeo
sit
C
and, in the year 1797,
ommended, he said, to