Star.
London, England, 1815-03-14 00:00:00

coPlkt LAWS.

The order upon which ;belt Lerdsbips were summoned being
read ;
Earl GREY rose to bring forward. the motion of
which he had given notice, and which was to the
above effect. He prefaced it by a sperch of great
length, equally fraught with argumentation and elo-
quence ; but of which we regret our limits confine
us to a brief and general sketch. He came forward,
he said, under an imperious sense of public duty to
submit to their Lordships a motion on a subject not
only of the greatest, but of vital importam.e. On
this occasion he would abstain from referring to any
details of the measure just sent up by the other House
of Parliament, farther than was necessary to enable
him to convince their Lordships that farther informa-
tion was highly requisite before they could proceed
to the discussion of that most important question.—
To the discussion he certainly should bring all that
calmness anti temper it so peculiarly required.—
These he deemed essentially necessary towards ren-
dering their ultimate decision just and satisfactory.—
He must deprecate any taking tip of the discussion
as a matter of adverse interests, between contending
parties; the subject should be considered as one in-
cluding a large view of the general interests of all,
as having an indisputable tendency to promote the
general good. At the same time he trusted their
Lordships would prove themselves peculiarly atten-
tive to the interests of the most laborious classes of
the community, and of the manufacturers, and they
should attenel to the feelings of these with respect,
end regard their prejudices with indulg.,Tce—the best
modes of persuading these classes that the ultimate
decision of their Lordships will rest upon princirk,
and whatever it may be, it would give general satis-
faction, as being wisely taken up, and on an impar-
tial and dispassionate view of the whole subject.—
Coming forward in this view, one of the principal
considerations which induced him to offer the motion
lie was AbOlg to submit to their Lordships, was the
great difference or sentiment among those, whose
interests were supposed to have been exclusively at-
tended to in the contemplation of the measure. I-k
!tad no object whatever of ilflay. He wished the
enquiry he should propose, which was solely for the
iiiucidation of truth, to be entered upoa immediately.
In deference too to the almost innumerable petno:os
of the people ; the investigation he should propose
ought to be entered upon. The people, it was pos-
sii2le, may be misguided ; they may be mistaken ;
they may be misled—but the most effectual correc-
tive at those evils would be found in the result of a
calm and dispassionate inquiry into the whole subject,
by avoidintg all appearance whatever of precipitation
und haste. The first consideration would be, whe-
ther there did not exist a ci,se which rendered farther'
inquiry necessary ? and this he would contend ar.i li
proved in the course of all that had been said in de-
bate there and elsewhere upon the subject ; from the
numerous publications without doors—from the vo-
luminous reports and documents, and the mass of
eyidence. He then adverted. more particularly to
thp Report of their Lordship:s'.. Committee on the
subject. Which sat Imo the 131 of June to dee tW

of July box year. He well Anew the ability and . 1
• which was employed on that occasion, and
• important information was produced ; but the
Committee, in producing it, state, in their Report,
they.were themselves aware, that that information
was by no mean' complete; and farther, they ex-
pressly recommended the House not to proceed to
legislate upon the subject without farther enquiry ;
in order to supply that farther information which they
acknowledged to be defective. Such were the ex-
press opinions of their Lordships' Committee ; and
such aloge, were there no other motives, would con-
stitute a sufficient call and ground for their Lord-
ships to proceed to farther enquiry. The various
statements, and the urgent requests of the Petitioners,
constituted another strong ground for enquiry ; a
proceedin4 which more than any other would tend
to allay their discontent. In the further illustration
of the necessity of enquiry, he would admit, for the
sake of the argument, that the principle was esta-
blished of the necessity of some Legislative inter-
ference; but the consideration of the manner in which
that interference still remained, and on that point it
became a serious question whether they were suffi-
ciently informed to decide ? The first question was,
the regulation of the price at which the importation
of corn may he admissible. That was fixed by the
Bill at 80s. Upon this prominent point, it was first
tnost material to consider, whether they were suffi-
ciently informed to fix it at that price. The evidence
adduced farn!sbed no clear or possible data for such,
an enactment. Much contrariety of sentiment pre-
vailed among the witnesses as to that point. In
lustration of this proposition, his Lordship referred
somewhat in detail to the evidence adduced.—
On the question of the price at which the Corn
Growers could afford the admission of importations,
much difference of opinion prevailed. Mr. Custance
thought it could not be less than 965. Mr. Haigh,
from 90s. to 100 s. Another witness calculated it
at 975. ; another thought it should be from 87s.
to Ms. Mr. Bennet thought 965. Mr. Turnbull,
Mr. Ross, and some others at 84s. and at 80s.—
' A great proportion of the witnesses were for having
the prices higher than 80s. Another class of the
witnesses expressed their opinions that the expenses
of agriculture were infinitely higher than they ought
to be. He meant not to impute the least improper
motives, but most of these witnesses were persons
whose interests were more or less implicated; this
certainly was no reflection upon the parties, but the
consideration was generally attended to in the estima-
tion of evidence given : but even among these a
great difference of opinion prevailed as to the price
which would be a sufficient protection to the farmer.
There were some however, particularly among those
examined by the House of Commons, who state, '
that a much less price than 80s. would be a sufficient
protection to the farmer. Some of these were re-
ferred to by his Lordship, and in whose statements
also much contrariety of opinion prevailed. He was
of opinion that when wheat was at 118 or 120 a
load, it would be sufficient. Another, the price of
725. should be a sufficient protection, and one
thought, and which he admitted, on his farther exa-
mination, that even 645. would sufficiently remune-
rate the farmer. o:hers admitted that 735. 84s. or
from 725. to 755. would be sufficient for the purpose.
With such a specification of evidence before the
House, upon what ground or principle, could the
House proceed to adopt 80s. as the price ? But in
that view, if they bad not sufficient ground for le-
gislating on the subject with respect to England, how
much stronger were not the objections when applied
to Ireland ? It was, bbscrvable the far greater part
of the petitions in support of the proposed measure
came from that country. He would first allude to a
particular fact, namely, that before their Lordships'
Committee there was not a tittle of evidence, as to
the rate at whi :Is corn could be grown in Ireland.
Before the Commons there was some evidence upon
the point, but to different effect like the rest ; but its
general result was, that a much less price was suffi-
cient to protect the Irish farmers, than for those in
this country. But they were aware, from other
sources of information, that corn could be grown
there at a less rate than had been stated. As far as
respected Ireland therefore, there was no proof that
the measure was necessary. The effect of it must
be to give a decided advantage to the Irish corn
grower, and eventually to raise the rents of the land
owner in that country, at the expence of the people
of England. In this view also, the measure must
be totally inefficient, as to the protection of the Eng-
lish flamers ; as Ireland, in consequence of the
large remittances she is obliged to make to this coun-
try, will send in vast quantities orcorn, and under-
ell the English farmer at his own markets. These
considerations were all additional calls for further in-
quiry, and these important facts ought to be clearly
ascertained before they ventured to pass such a Bill
as that now before the House. The circumstances
of the importation of Corn from various parts of the
Continent of late years, he next adverted to, and
trom the view he took of these, argued that enquiry
was the more neceuary. In this part of the subject
he referred principlly to the evidence of Mr. Samuel
Scott and of Mr. Barrett, and with a view to the ar-
gument urged in favour of the measure, from the
magnitude of recent importations, he contended
that nu fair decisive conclusion could be drawn, as
these vroceeded from the extensive speculations that
were !tilde in the article, in the expectation of the
measur e now before the House. These opinions may
be all false or erroneous ; but they were such as
wed the necessity of inquiry, before they pro.
ceeded to the adoption of a measure upon which the
(pinions of the people of England were so strongly
t xpressed. A view of the present internal and ex-
ternal circumstances of the country would also shew
the necessity of further inquiry. Admitting 'even
for the sake of argument that 80s. was the right
price, yet the difficulties of ascertaining that price
were coiiiiderable ; it was an acknowledged, tact,
that the averages were taken in such a way as to lead
,to a. mist erroneous result. The twelve maritime
!districts, for thtse were put together, by which
means the smallest district in Wales, where not 100
,quarters were imported, contributed as much to the
estimating the averages as the city of London with
its immense population. The difference between the
:average and the real prices were in fact considerable,
and this part of the subject too, contributed to chew
.the necessity of investal 80*. mayatiore beAnotherlooked o
objetctr is
'against-fixing the price
'the existing state of the circulation, and he belleted.

a Noble Friend of his (we imagine the Earl or Lau-
derdale) wouldrc hardly contend that such was not an
important cons tion with reference to what was
the difference of calculated value between the fount(
currency of the country, the return of which was sci
much desired, and the present medium of paper;.)
and in this view the Noble Earl made some brief
calculations as to the prices of gold at different
periods. There were, however, some additional
incitements, and those of more immediate inte-
rest, Which called for serious investigation. Ile
meant the alleged calculation, that the price of
80s. would insure a permanent price to bread of 161
for the quartern loaf. This had been controverted
by others entertaining a different sentiment. "Ile
errors in the mode of taking the assize of bread,
which loudly calk.' for regulation, constituted addi-
tional grounds for enquiry. He should urge this pro-
ceeding, without the least delay, because it may lead
to certlin specific regulations, tending to effect a re-
duction in the price of bread to the people of this
country ; a circumstance which would materially
tend to allay that spirit of discontent which now so
unfortunately prevailed. Above all others the ques-
tion was most important to those concerned or inte-
rested in the agriculture of England, as it involved
the consideration whether or not SOs. was to be re.,
garded as a species of standard price, for if corn
could not be imported at less than eighty shillings,
and importation to take place every year, then that
price must be paid for it. If that price were to re-
main, no country in Europe could afford to take it of
the English farmer at that price, and this serious
consideration called for close enquiry, before the
price of 80s. should be determined upon. The Land-
holders, and more especially the labouring poor, who
depended upon them, were more interested in the 1
investigation he proposed, than perhaps any other
set of men. Ili many parts of the country, these
were now in circumstances of much distress,—
There was no necessity whatever for precipitating the
measure now before the House. The importation
was at present wholly suspended, and would be so
for some time longer, and they had ample time for'
consideration and enquiry, ere they should be called
upon to make such a considerable sacrifice as that in-
volved by the Bill. Some general advantageous ar-
rangement may arise out of the enquiry, and the con-
dition of every class of people in the country may be
greatly ameliorated, in which he trusted the Govern-
ment would afford the example in economising and
reducing the establishments and expenditure, in every
way that may be found practicable; and he doubted
not their Lordships would do their duties in contribu-
ting to the effectuation of such measures. But he
repeated, the enquiry was most impo•tant for the '
agricultural class ; their interests should be properly
understood, and the pledges made to them should be
redeemed, and this could in no way be done, so well
as by an effectual enquiry. But the interests of all,
commercial or landed, were more or less essentially
concerned, for no measure which was prejudicial to
the one could be beneficial to the other. Much dan-
ger may arise from precipitation, but none could re-
sult from deliberate investigation, and the good sense
of the people of England was always such that they
uniformly decided in favour of the good cause, when
it was fairly and satisfactorily laid before them.—
Upon the whole, he would strenuously recommend,
and solemnly adjure their Lordships, to decide for
the further investigation which was called for by the
interest of all, but most especially by those of the
agriculturists; and the result, he felt confident, would
tend more than any thing else, to allay, and finally
to obviate that spirit of discontent which unfortu-
nately prevailed, and which had so disgracefully ma-
nifested itself ; and would conclude by moving that
their Lordships, previous to a decision upon the Coin
Bill, would go into an enquiry into the subject at tire
bar of the House.
Earl of DERBY, withotit going into the question
of the petitions, must declare that, he lelt the subject
to be entitled to the utmost consideration el the
House ; they should pause and give time tor ii,vesti-
gating it in all its bearings. He would, thiefore,
give his cordial assent to his Noble Friend's mAion,
to whom the Horse and the.country ought to led
doubly obliged ; as besides affi,rding full °ppm minty
for discussion, it would enable many Noble persons
to retract their erroneous opinions upon the subject.
Earl of HARDWICKE considered the eilairy,
that had taken place on the subject acorn, to be as
perfect as any enquiry could be. France was a
country producing always more corn than she could
consume, and therefore we could always procure a
supply, either directly from her, or by the way of
Germany and Holland. The greatest pains had
been taken by the Committee of Enqu.ry, of which
he had been the Chairman, and be himself had made
!every possible effort to procure intelligence on the
,important subject. In fact, the Committee had gone
as fully into the enquiry as any Committee that
ever sat.

The Earl of LIMERICK spoke in favour of Irish
agriculture. He contended that the object of the
Noble Lord was to keep the Irish landholder from
' deriving any advantage from the expert of corn to
England. (His Lordship was called to ord,:r.)
1.4r1 GREY, in explanation, said that his opinion
was, that the Irish agriculturist would be able to un-
dersell the English farmer, and therefore the Bill
would be insufficient. It was consequently right to
enquire whether such would be the of i.ct or not, be-
fore the House proceeded with it.
The Earl of LIMERICK replied, that the vast
importation of corn from the Netherlands of late had
almost been the ruin of Ireland. The population of
Ireland now exceeded six millions, two-thirds of v. horn
were engaged in agriculture. These four millions,
now unable to continue their formr pursuits, peti-
tioned for encouragement; they only wished to be
enabled to export corn from Ireland, and to return
the manufactures of this country. The benefit that
heyiwould give was therefore as great as that which
they would receive.
Earl SPENCER was anxious to state his reasons
for giving his vote for the motion. It was the duty
of the House to give due consideration to the in-
terests of all classes, and the only question was, whe-
ther protection was to be afforded with one's eyes
shut or open ? His Lordship entered upon a resi.w
!of the evidence, and contended that many things had
.occursed since lad year which placed the subject in
a new light; and considering the situation in which
:the country was now placed, a complete inquiry was
equally as important as necessary. Every body

knew that tLe minds or men were more apt to be
flamed on this than on any other question, aryl w,!
out the advantage of the fullest consideration, its in
tits could not be ascertained. lie trustcd, howevr
that the Hume would proceed with calmness in
investigations.
The Lad of 11A RDWICKE explained.
Lord S I'. JOHN sail if the motion had b,
male earlier in the sess.on it should Live had
vote. From the situation in which ue were r„
placed, it WAS impos.sible that any good could rts,
from delay.

Lord BULKELEY felt great pleasure in repo,
for the inquiry.
Lord SIDMOUTH said, that he couli by
means discover from any thing that he had heat
that night, or understood, upon the clearest consiti,
ation of the question, the least reason for delay.,
There never was a subject on which ParNament
received more ample information for tLe last twet
years. With retpect to what had been said touches
Ireland, he would remind the House, that the %air
holding from that country the benefit which 'het
was supposed to hold out to her, would be a violatit
of the Articles of the Union. By that Act the cow
tries became incorporated, and the privil,ges enjoye
by one part were naturally to be eatended to
other. It could ant be denied, that the coin product
in England was inadequ rte to the support of the
habitants; and the question was, whether the del
ciency should be supplied by Ireland or by Francs
But the supply trout France must always be pttea
rious, and depend on her own convenience ; ander(
recently the Gt:vernment of that country had d,
creed, that no exportation should take place fel,'
corn should be as high as 495. a quarter, a price
that country, under present circumstances, holly vim
to our 80s. As to the effect of the prohibitory pre
of importation affecting the market at awerval rat
nothing could be farther from the fact, which t'i.i
rience has shetvn. In King William's reign the pa
tecong price was far above the current market prig
and so it was for a long period succeeding. As
the average referred to by the Noble Earl (Grss),
was not to be relied on, and it did not at all he,
upon the question. And after all the stress that hi
been laid upon petitions, it was to be considered th
petitions had come likewise in support of the ma
sure. Indeed the numbers on the opposite sides ear.
pretty nearly equal-65 and 69. It was remarkab:
however, that the opposers of the meastaP had cr.
out for no alteration, that is, for no amenJna•nt,
thereby set up a pretensina to interfere with the Oa:
berative wisdom of Parliament. lie concluded sr:
opposing the amendment.
Lord KING was fully convinced of the propti
of the House receiving farther informati to idcane th!
proceeded to business of such vast iniperotece. Pi,
deprecated the interference of the Le:;islatute at ai'
in the business, and heartily coincided in the raWo:
of his liable Friend.

Lord MOUNTJOY observed, t!iat ther: !ia.l beer
great irregularity in collecting the opi iin is of tl,
people of Ireland on the subject in yu, ai n ; b
there could be no doubt that the agrictilai:ists,
principals and labourers in that country, would ,
ruined, if the protection which the creient Bill
calculated to afford should b.: withheli ; and he co
jured the House to save the lab ,uring classes in I.
Lund 'from a relapse into the misety which is hat
rally attendant on poverty and the want of emplo,
mint.

The Eail of LAUDERDALE entered into
general statement of the labours of the late Co,
Committee, which had pro4h all the nect:ssar)
formation required on the suhject, an.l cor.cltn.,
with opposing the motion of his Noble Ftieral.
The E4rl of DARNLEY ebserve.l, that his or.
sentiments on the subject before their Lordships
ofien bern declared. as (Tiniest, with all the it.
illation which he had been able to obtain, WAS sti
the same; yet he could not be so instusl):e to tl
arguments set forth by I.i. Noble Freeth', nar to tl
deference due to the Y. titian' on their Lardshir
table. He thought circumspection and enquiry v
cessary, and therefore should supp.al the mouun
his Noble Friend.

Lord GRENVILLE lamented the disponi;
which seemed to prevail in that House in favour
the measure which his Noble Friend had prorse.
with so much force and just argument the bare poi
poncment of. He was astonished that any alan
should prevail in consequence of importations fro!
France, when he considered that the %via: Of tl
corn imported from that country in one year ameurl
ed to no more than 1.50,000 quarters. He conteill.
that it wculd be impossible for France ever to be
come an exporting country, at least such a cord
sion should not be drawn in the absence of
evidence and information on that subject. Whi
the Bill just introduced into the House came to 1
discussed, he should prove that a more pernicrei
maxim never was cunccivcd than that of attern?:t.'
to depend entirely upon ourselves, and thus cutta
ourselves off from all commercial intercon:w air
other countries. It their Lords'nips wished to Fr.
serve the independence and prosperity of this cirri!
they must keep up the fair balance of trade tls
ought to exist in all departments internally and c
ternaliy. This measure would have effect ep
distillation, which must materially affect the reveal
arising from that source ; respecting which there w,
no information whatever ()dole the House. lieu
plored their Lordships not to precipitate a 1341111
would do no good to any parties. The good the.
were about to do to the manufactures, was iu our
ignorance of the consequences to them; and ill'
good they were to da to the agricultural intere,
was merely founded on partial evidence, which
I.tted only to themselves. He felt this to be a quf'
tion on which gr...it difference of opinion must:
did exist to Clow who d-ffered from him, "
puled no other motives than tl:ose that directed
own opinion. Ail his own private interests %v
connected with agriculture ; but he thought Iln
measure could do no benefit to the agricultural IM
rest. The prosperity of this country did not
on the interests of land alone, but on the genera
confidence which the community would place in thj
h:
landed interest. And great and dreadful woulil.
the calamity, should ever the mass o) the commune
withdraw that confidence from the landed propr!
tors. Therefore he again entreated their Lordslor;
to pause before they proceeded any farther in thl
s.as/t_step without more enquiry.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL slid, the only gad

'6l4r asi Tti•
lion then before o so whether the Roue
1 ail before it sufficient information on which they
could be justified in bringing forward and plitsing
the law in question ? 1f this rneasnra was merely
calculated to relieve only one class, at the expense of
aare!ier, he would not support it. But he supported
it because it was his firm conviction that it was cal.
cuhted to promote the interests of all clasies in the
crttnunite, and because it would tend essentially
cal so benefit the poor of the country. This slues.
tiLhi had now for three years occupied the attention
ut. parliament, and in the last Session an extensive
c4tiiry was entered on it; but Parliament did not
It.cusee the necessity of legislation. The. Committee
g only collected a large body of information, but
0...11 encouraged information as far as it could be
Now he saw no necessity for delay, nor
• .01.1.1 the clamour out of doors have the least infl
his decision : his objection to delay was, ihat
:iess relating to agriculture would be at a
0r..., neither land nor labour would get oil its tutu.
rat tooting until it was decided whether Parliament
Aould legislate or not on this question ; farms could
rot be let, leases could not be renewed; every thing
va, at a stand, and the greatest mischief already
art se out of the delay that bad hitherto taken place :
one of the Noble Lord's arguments had convin-
tr.i him. He could not see the necessity for any far-
tl.or evidence, because there was one fact which no
eridence could contradict, and that was, that SOs.
wzs a proper protecting price; but he did not believe
tea SOs. would be nminimurn iodic, because the
cr.rou: igemer.t afforded to our agriculture would
pi...luce plenty, and that would make the corn fall
1, Am than 80s. There was one piece of evidence
sere important than every thing else, and that was
report of the French Government, and the law
F.,sed in France as founded on that report. There
sas a material consideration with respect to the effect
this measure ; it would be impossible to know
wheat the effect would be unless the averages were
Lit as they were. l'his question had nothing to do
with regulating the assize of bread, although it
tuilli be a most wise thing to pass g law on that
tfoject, because, by a.proper regulation, the people
of London might get their bread much cheaper than
at present. As to Petitions against the Bill, he was
disposed to pay the utmost attention to them ; but
there was such a difference of opinion, that if due
enquiry were made, it would be found that more
persons throughout the whole kingdom were favour.
able than hostile teihe Bill ; and therefore the inte.
men of the whole must be consulted, and regulated
on a fair balance. And it was on.this principle, he
contended, that no delay should any longer take'
flue on this great measure.
Their Loidships then divided—
Contents, IS—Non-Contents, 81—Proxies, 124.
Majority against the Motion, 187.
/I.djourned at TWO o'a,ocK this marring.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. Was. Dirmeas promoted a Petition from the Writers to
tt Signet in Scotland, against the Scotch Trial by Jury
Ordered to lie on the table:
:it. W. ZIT LIAM? presented a Petition from certain landholders
: Wilshire, in favour of the Corn Bill.—Ordered to lie on the
Mr. Aantrrnliwr ,presented a copy of a .Petition from the
Irglirh Protestants at Ruttodaea, praying pecuniary assistance,
enable them to repair their church in that place—Ordered to
. ou the table
The CoMillfteb Girdle Pauper Lunatic BM was postptined to
:lay. The Committee on the Poor Returns Bill was postpon.
to-morrow, as was the Committee on the Salaries of the
xni assionen at the Jury Courts to Scotland.
Sir M. W. litIDLEY gave notice that on Tuesday the 21st
heat he vieuh' move for leave to bring in a Bill is amend the
Lai of the Kung, for repelling the highways add footways.
:dr. GORDON moved, that his notice of a :notion on the soh-
of the Order of the Bath, which stood for to-morrow, ahould
it snuck ow, Which was accordingly done.
Mr. BA.biliES wished, as a great change, wl:h respect to the.
au (Mice, was in contemplation, to have produced accounts of
the txpencesineurred by rpublie building now In progress, and
L one lattly C.nished. He moved for " returns of all the expenses.
ltherto locarrsd, and paid, in purchasing the scite of the new
tastom I and In erecting the building as far as the work
ca, stivariccil, with estimates of the sums necessary to finish it,
s ,;ei lot with the original estimates of the total expense—He
0 movtil for papers to 'hew the total expense incurred no
r,oun't arise building the new Mint."
111 ,HiNGTON took occasion to say, that the expense if
Cotton House was not exits:eel d to exceed the Original estlei,
and it was supposed in nine or ten mouths the budding'
Nall be completed.
the eucerb war •rdeeeld t 4 beprpduced.
lir C. MONK gave make that he would to-morrow se'nniglat
rtrte for the production of Papers relative to the new modelling
wile Unit r of the Bath.
0i IN NEWPORT postpined his motion respecting the
krbentes 0 Ireland which stood for to-morrow, till to-morrow

CONDUCT OF Tn. POLIC&
On the motion of the CitaNcif.ton of the Excus.
Ctll9 the Minutes oi the examinations of the Magis-
-1'....es at the .fiar of the Douse, sn the preceding
i'',.liday, were taken in-p. consideration.
The CHLANCELLOR: of the 44CHEQUtli
the libit.ct of the Ream in taking.these Mi-
-I:4tes into their coUsiderationt mot be to secure on
Part of The Police a vigoreue discharge or their
etr.y. He believed, since lest Monday, every periOn
t-,1 satisfied with their conduct. PAiliament had
t"ni held- their sittings ill greater security--bad
vver beed less in danger of .interruptkis. With re:
1;,---t to what had taken ptace on the day he had.
44144 be ditigtht it unnecessary to bay any thing
It tipi3eatd. that every, plec:liiticin had previ.
" been'tdOn (which common prudence could die:
lie regretted that it had beeri fo'und neCeisary
to tail out ;` kit die propriety •oi • doing.l
th'lotnder the eircumitantes of the ease, he belzretili
"14441 not be questioned'; and he thought it
seen that hardly any blitnio attached .t 0 the'ol,4
rower, it for once it had not ;Wei alsTia tto preset*
ie pAce, mid Afford lull protection. Ifon•thW sub-'
I'7 t!rtte w..s difihrence•of• he'truitett
liftsive 'at übliti hint .the dondutt s,f thelblice tittee
4.fy hmel- atinield foe theirAiirsi errors. • Cotteeiv..
it v..0u41- he 'best not to reviv: the uniortutuitte
hulls tiilbt, anti Aid there wrotild" be ho
obenon to pass over what had occurred, he moved,.
. 'x
14t the Order of the Day for taking•the Minutes of
4tidence into consideration should be discharged.
,I.lr. WHITBREAD Was astonished why the'
tight Honourable Gentleman should wish to' dis-
Tge the Motion. The Sedritary of Stae, seeing'
Cl4l tumults were likely to•talre place, had otdered
Le Nigh Bailiff to attend with his Constables. He
(Ilr. Whitbread) was sorry to'be obliged to atiimad...
on Coe con-duet of the High ; but he coo-
ctite.t he was obliged to do sa in thedischarge.ot
duty. The High Bailiff had brought dii,vit with
nit) eighty conitibles ;" but ballad "taken no inetssUrei

tor plating them in 'serfs sitinitiege is would render
their presence effectual. 90. thoxight these maw-
tides had come down the taint& were at theirteight,
so much so, that some Menitieisi in their way to the
House, bad been nearly rode over. „Under these cir-
cumstances, he could not comply with the motion of
the Right Honourable Gentleman. He thought some
censure, however slight, should be passed on the Ma-
gistrates; in order to shew that we did not approve
of their conduct ; he defied any Min to approve of
their conduct, and if they did not approve. they could
not consistently discharge the present Order. He
should therefore oppose the motion.
Mr. BATHURST did not conceive the conduct
of the Magistrates deserts.:d censure. Mr. Morris
had breqght down his constables and stationed them
around the House to preserve order. In this they
succeeded ; but whilst they were employed here, a
party of the rioters had gone to another place and.
created disturbances. He could not therefore blame
the Magistrates for what occurred in another place ;
it is injustice to suppose that those placed near the
House could afFord protection to Members in their
passage to the House from the different parts in the
City. If circumstances bad Tendered the interfe-
rence of the military necessary, it could not be im-
puted to any neglect of the cot:stages or the Magis-
trates who directed them. He supported the chi-
charge of the Older.
Mr. W. WYNNE thought that if any instructions
had been given to regulate the conduct of the Ma-
gistrates in future on such occasions, he would be
willing to pass over the late transactions in silence;
but he did not see their conduct in the same light.
The constables were called on, and were found in.
sufficient to preserve the peace ; he thought therefore
some inquiry was necessary, in order to see who did
not attend a those called on, and in order to sec why
none of the rioters were taken, though it appear. d
that 160 constables had attended. He did nut mean
to attach any blame to the Secretary of State, who,
he conceived, had discharged his duty ; but he con-
tended, that the best means to prevent a recurrence
of such circumstances in future, was to make a strict
inquiry into the cause of the late deficiency.
Mr. BATHURST explained.
Mr. DOUGLAS said the conduct of the Civil
Magistrates should be sifted to the bottom, in order
to ascertain by what neglect the inteiference of the
military became necessary; if the House passed this
over, they would be screening from reproof some
who had deserved it.

Mr. LOCKHART, after complimenting the
Speaker on the wise ana dignified conduct which he
had displayed on the late occasion, said, that the in-
dependence of the House and the peace of the City
were concerned in the present question; on that ac-
count, he could not consent to its being buried in
oblivion for the present. The Magistrates should be
;called on to give some account of their conduct,
which to him did not appear to be the most praise.
worthy. Though he was an enemy to pensions, yet
he would be anxious to see same of those magistrates
provided for in that way, and sent into that retire-
ment for which they seemed bust fitted. He did not
think it right to see decrepit and infirm old men
placed in situations which required all the vigilance
And activity of healthful youth.—(hear, hear.) —As
far as he was informed, there was a jealousy between
'the Bow-street Constables and those of Westminster,
which hindered their acting in concert. This was a
circumstance which might have very bad effects on
a recurrence of similar tumults in future. He was
the more anxious to oppose the discharging the 01 -
der, in consecoence of the late verdict. of Julie-,
which went to establish principles with which they
had no concern whatever.
Mr. H. ADDINGTON observed, that the main
complaint against the Magistrates was, that of their
not having been in their proper situations, nor made
a proper disposition cf the force in their possession.—
This disposition ought to have been made in the first
instance. One Magistrate (Mr. Conant) was cer-
tainly in attendance on the hrst evening, but obliged
to go to another part of the town on duty. If them
'bad been any error, it was an error in judgment.—
But it was his duty to state, in justice to the Magi-
strates, that for any error they committed in point of
judgment, in the first instance, they had made an
ample reparation ; for ever since they had exerted the
greatest degree of alacrity and zeal.
Mr. WHITBREAD did not impeach the Magi-
strates altogether.
Mr. BUTTERWORTH thought that the con-
stables, so far as fell within his own observation, had
done their duty.
Sir C. tvIONCK observed, that although there had
been great riots throughout the Week, there was a
certain pitch b4yOred iiirbich they did not proceed.—
No house was botnto nor was any body put to death,
or violence offered to any one's pers.m. No body
was even apprehended as a leader in the riots.
Mr. H. ADDINGTON replied, that there were
at this Moe Ant SO persons in custody for rioting.
Sir I. WitOrTESLEY observed; that the con-
duct of all the Magistrates was highly commendable,
euepe that of one. The peat fault was a want of
manakinient in the &Ist instance; he was confident
that if the populace, in the first instance, had been
prevented from collecting round the House of Par-
liainent, there Would have been no mub. The High
Valid had said, that all the constables put together
were-intufficknt to keep away_ the mob which had
addeteti; and diet he relied on the exertions of Mr.
Sink' and: MY.' titter : but it WAS his duty to have
had a pie'rionv communication with them. He
dimight ditty of the Magistrates to hive pl'e-
'tinted sedlilans expressions from being written on
the walls. These; from their appearance, met
seem to hate befrii &De by common bands, or by
the -comnibtt part of mob, and the writers should
have been witched and taken tip.
ADPINOTON—The very day after the
first tint a proper method' was adopted, and proper
directions given.
Mr; Alderman ATKINS said, it often happened
in case of riots that a sufficient force of constables
could not be preCured ; this was the case at the time
when he was Sheriff, during the time of the • dilttir-
&races in .Piccadilly, near the residence of an Ho-
nour:Olt &time, he and his brother 'Sheriff Were,
never able' to collect ' a Ocitiit number of con:
stables.
The CHATItELLOr or the EICHEQUEN,
said; it war-not nfriinitilided to prifitrhae an 'eulo-
glum on the conduit of the Magistratea ; the ;object

of Ms isogon iorr was merely' to Yet it rest in silence.
—The motion for discharging the Order was then
agreed to.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
next moved to discharge the order for the attendance
of the Magistrates, whici: was agreed to.
Lord MILTON presented a Petition from Barns-
ley against the Corn Bill.

TRADE TO SOUTH AHSRICA.
The House having resolved itself into a Commit-
tee to consider of the South Se.t Company's Act,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
mitered into the nature and history of the South Sea
Company, which had been established in 1720, under
magnificent. prospects, which afterwards turned out
to be almost entirely delusive. Great losses were of
course sustained by all the persons who had era-
lurked in that speculation; yet the Company conti-
nued to exist, and to carry on a trade to South Ame-
rica and the South Seas, at a small profit. The Com-
pany divided three and a half per cent. and their ca-
pital was about At 3,500,000. As it was now desir-
able to take the monopoly of the trade out of the
hands of the Company, a moderate compensation
must be made for the less they Should sustain. Tor
thib purpose, he should propose to raise a fund, out
of which a dividend should be paid to the present
proprietors equal to their loss. .This would not bring
any charge upon the public, as it was intended to be
wised out of a small tonnage duty, and a duty of 2
per cent. on the export of goods to the South Sea.—
fie then concluded with moving a Resolution, ,s that
ilto exclusive right of trade vested in the South Sea
Company, in virtue of the Act of Queen Anne, do
cease and determine."

Mr. BENNEI'T wished Ito ask the Minister if
there had been any interference on the part of the Bri-
tish Government, to put a step to the calamities of
intestine war which desolated the extensive provinces
ot South America? He had authority to state, that
in those unhappy countries within the last three or
four years no less than one million of human beings
were put to the sword. One particular province,
which was about 400 miles in ex.ent, had been con-
verted into a d sert ; the towns and villages were de-
serted and destroyed, and such of the inhabitants as
escaped fled to the woods for safety. Some idea
might be formed of this horrible war when the Com-
mittee was informed, that on the surrender of the
city of Valencia by treaty, all the chiefs of the in.l
surf ents were treacherously put to the sword. He
wished to ask the Ministers if any mediation had
been proposed on the part of the British Government
in 1812, between the Colonies and Old Spain ? He
understood, that since the return of Ferdinand, a.
Councillor of State, who had been instrumental in
betraying his country to France, was sent our to
South America, and made a great part of the
country a scene of blood and devastation. He was
told an expedition had just sailed from Cadiz to
South America ; but he prayed to GOD that it might
fail, and that it might perish on the coast of the new
world. The- question which the British Ministers
ought to consider was, whether they should take a
part with nine millions of slaves who composed the
population of Old Spain, or with 18 millions of free-
men, and men desiring to be free, who inhabited the
regions of South America, who were open to receive
us, and who were anxious to maintain a commerce
and alliance with us. It had been said, thg his Ma-
jesty's Government preserved a strict neutrality be-
tween the new and old worlds ; this was not the fact,
because Spanish troops had been fitted out for South
America at our expense we maintained some of
their troops in Trinidad; the Royalists were provided
with arms, and several refugee patriots were denied
the rights of hospitality in Trinidad ; the Govern-
ment of The island refused to permit them to take
place there, and at last they met with a hospitable
reception from that excellent man Peciou ; yet from
Petion, a black, who exercised the virtues and rite
wisdom that should adorn a Sovereign Prints. Be-
sides, the English Government had dishonoured it self
by conferring the Order of the Garter on King Ver.
d:nand ; and he now wished to know what Minister
it was who had dared to advise the Prince Regent to
do that act?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER'
laid, he could give an answer only to one of the ques.,'
bons put by the Honourable Gentleman. The Bri-
tish Government did interfere and endeavour to me-
diate between the Government of the Cones and the
Colonies. This was at the time when we were as-
sisting to preserve the liberty of Old Spain. It was
very difficult to give an opinion respecting the troubles
alluded to by the Honourable Gentleman, and still
more difficult to interfere. We must keep well with
the Spaniards of the new world ; but it was, at the
same time, necessary to keep up our alliance with
Old Spain. No pretext should be furnished for the
Public to say, that while we were assisting Spain, we
were about to
,rob her of her colonies. As to the
question respecting the Orders of the Garter and Gol-
den Fleece, he did not think such things of sufficient
importance for discussion in that House; nor that the
House had any right to interfere with that which wits
exclusively the Sovereign's prerogative.
Mr. WHITBREAD conceived it highly proper
to take a view of the state of South America, at a
time when we were about to open a lifters' trade to
that country, by the abolition of the South Sea Com-
pany. But with respect to the abominable Govern.
ment of Old Spain, he wished to have a more clear
exposition of the sentiments of Ministers ; he wished
the Right Hon. Gentleman to relate the accusation
that we had assisted the Cortes and the King of Spain
with money and arms, for the purpose of crushing the
patriots of the new world. It this accusation was
false, it was an atrocious calumny ; and let the Right
Hon. Gentleman refute it if he could; and it he did
not, the natives of the new world would have just
cause to complain of us. This was a question of the
utmost impottance—this was a most remarkable pis.,
nod in our history. When Spanish America threw
off the odious yeke of its old Government, as be hoped
in Gon it would do, it would boa most delicate ques-
tion how the Enlist) Government ought to conduct
itself on such a momentous occasion.' Was it fit that
}ve should give any assistance towards the subjugation
Of countries with which we should hope to be able to
tarry on a most extensive and advantageous com-
Mace ? The Right Hon. Gentleman evaded the
iuestion of granting the Garter to Ferdinand, at least
enoned to make very light of it. That once dig.
hifled Order was conreiTed upon a man who could be
&addend nothing better than a usurper on the rights

of hit people ; and he wished to know who had beets
the adviser of the Prince Regent in that act?
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
.assured the Hon. Gentleman, that no such assistance
as that which they alluded to had been given by our
Government to Old Spain. With respect to the re-
flections that were thrown upon Ferdinand, it must
be recollected,. that during the whole of the time we
were in alliance with Spain it was with Ferdinand
only that we acted, as the pio7isional Governments
all :.cted in his name. Were we not bound, there-
fore, to recognise his Government on his return to
his kingdom ?
Mr.-BENNErr. asserted, that an expedition for
subduing the patriots of New Spain had been fitted
out at Cadiz under the eye of Sir H. Wellesley.
Mr. Alderman ATKINS asked, if it was intended
to abolish the South Sea Comprny ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
answered—No 1 but to take from it all its exclusive
privileges.
Mr. PONSONBY said, that the subject cf South
America was of the greatest importance to this
country; he was far from recommending any viola-
tion of treaties; but he w.luld say, that there was no
country with which it was more cur duty to preserve
good faith and keep up a good understanding thati
Spanish America, for these colonies were of the ut-
most consequence; and the people of England ex-
, pectei from its Government, that it should not,
directly or indirectly, assist the Government of Old
Spain in subduing the South American colonies.
Mr. W. WYNNE asked, how came it that such a
breach of hovitality had been committed as that of
refusing protection to the patriots who fled front
New Spain ? It was most unjustifiable and shameful.
He also wished to know, why the honour of the
Garter had been so degraded as to be given to the
present King of Spain ? It was an honour which
many great Monarchs had asked in vain.
Mr. WHITBREAD asked, if any interference
took place on the part of Government in favour of
the persons given up at Gibraltar ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, Sir H. Wellesley would use every exertion in
his power to effect this object.
Mr. F[NLAY wished to knoW why there should
be a tax of two per cent. on the exportation of goods
to South America?

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the object was, to raise a fund that sho;ild serve
as a compensation to the South Sea Company fur the
loss it should sustain by the opening of the trade.
Mr. FINLAY asked, why the tax was not laid
on the goods imported from South America ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER.
answered, that they were already sufficiently bur-
dened by duties, and that by laying on any more,
we might lose the advantage we derived from their
importation. He then moved the following Resolu-
tions : that a guaranty Fund be created, amounting
to 8600,000 to be given. in Stock to the South Sea
Company. He next proposed, that a custom duty
of Al per cent. be allowed on all goods exported
from any ports of the United Kingdom to South
America.
Mr. Alderman ATKINS thought is would be
better to let the compensation go generally from the
Consolidated Fund, than be laid on the export of our
manufactures, which would excite an alarm all over
the country.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
replied, that so far from an alarm, the measure would
create considerable satisfaction, as it would give an
unbounded liberty to exportation.
Mr. PONSONBY asked, if foreign linen was to be
liable to the export duty ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said there would be no transit duty ; because if there
was, we should lose the benefit of the importation of
linens.

Mr. FINLAY conceived that this would operate
as a great disadvantage to our own linens.
Mr. PONSONBY hoped the Right Hos. Gentle-
man would not go so far in this business as he now

proposed.
Sir .1. NEWPORT was certain that such an indul-
gence to foreign manufacturers would be a great in-
jury to our own linen manfacturers, and particularly
those of Ireland.
Mr. FINLAY said, it would( also greatly injure
our cotton manufacturers.
The Resolutions were then agreed to, and the re-
port ordered to be received to-morrow.
TAXIS.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
having moved, that the Report of the Committee of
Ways and Means, and the postponed Resolutions be
taken into further consideration;
Mr. TIERNEY stated, that twenty-four millions
of supplies had been granted for the service of the
Navy for the whole year, and that of the Army for
half-a-year—eighteen millions of Ways and Means
had already been provided ; there only remained,
therefore, six millions to crake up the deficiency be-
tween the Ways and Means and the Supplies, and
yet the Right lion. Gentleman came forward with
War 'fazes, and new Assessed Taxes, to an amount
considerably exceeding that sum. He complained
that the Act passed -last year enabled the Treasury
to issue Exchequer Bills to an unlimited amount, on
Icoedit of the aids that bad been, or might be voted,
by Parliament. This was voting the Property Tax
without knowing it. Exchequer Bills had been is-
sued in this instance when no aids were in the con-
templation of Parliament. To whatever extent they
had been issued, ought to have gone towards making
up the deficiency between the 18 millions of Ways
and Means and the 24 millions of Supplies.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
agreed with the Right Hon. Gentleman in the Par-
liamentary principle of keeping Ways and Means
subordinate to supplies, and not anticipating the lat-
ter. He had, however, neglected to mention two con-
siderable votes of supplies. He bad rightly stated
that twenty-four millions had been granted for the
mrmy and Navy, but be had forgotton that twelve
illions had been voted at one time, and fifteen mil.
lions at another, for Exchequer Bills for the service
of 1814, making together twenty-seven millions,
which being added to the original twenty-four mil-
lions, formed a total of fifty-one millions an supplies
voted last year. To meet these only thirty-one mil-
lions of ways and means had yet beentrovided, so that
twenty millions still remained to be made up. He
agreed that Exchequer Bills should not be issued :a

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