Star.
London, England, 1822-04-26 00:00:00

(than
each suateeding ono of lam* ciimensiohs
than the last, and formed so as to fit the enlarged
gap, till the solid fabric of the Cenititution was rent
asundei; and riyen to the very heart—(Hear, hear).
These continued approaches towards grasping the
sovereign
_power Jbetrayed symptoms of a perpetual
&Moll* on ;he part of the People towards the
Legislature. Those who formerly only claimed to be
'governed equitably, now demanded to direct the
Government themselves—( Hear, hear).—:The House
would consider how far,' if they assented to the first
of .a series•Of premeditated changes in the Constitu-
tion, they might.not be instrumental in a total sub-
version of the Monarchy?. Whether a Monarchy,
tempered as this was by the People, was not prefer-
able to. a Demo,craey, was happily, through Pnovi-
DENCI4 unkilown.to us. It was an unsolved problem,
and he hoped would remain so. If a second time the
Monarchy was to fall before the Democracy, the
House of Commons would not a second time assist in
achieving the downfall—it would not be made the
means of burying itself—(Hear, hear).
Lord FOLKESTONE had made up his mind that
Reform; and a very considerable Reform, was neces-
sary for the salvation of the country ; though his
early education and feelings were contrary. Reform
was not intended .to attack or destroy the Throne;
but to sapport it when it was already too much at-
tacked. He instanced the ease with which the House
had been- induced to suspend the Habeas Corpus Act
in Ireland; while it was•now proved that it had never
yet been acted upon. This shewed that the present
House of Commons was not a fit guardian of the pub-
lic libel ty. A variety of contradictory arguments had
been used at various times against Reform in Parlia-
ment. The Right Hon. Gentleman, the Member for
Liverpool (Mr. Canning), had delivered a speech,
which had been cried up as a perfect epitome of all
that could be said against Reform; but in his (Lord
Folkestone's) opinion, it was an address in favour of
Reform. If our former happiness was owing to the
constitution of the House of Commons, where was
that happiness now ? It was fled ; it was gone ; and
he feared that without Reform it never would return.

They had been told by the Ministers, two months ago,
that Ireland was in a state of rebellion ; but, without
any inquiry, they were now told by the Irish Go-
vernment that it was only a contemptible commotion.
In the time of George I. the number of Peers was
178, and now they were 36'2 persons ; and was this
no alteration in the Court of dersticr resort of this
country ? In the 41 years last past the Peerages had
increased by the number of 147. Peers being taken
from the large landed proprietors, it was, to their
amount, taking awry so many champions of the
cause of the people, and making them enemies to it.
He wished to renovate the Constitution ; but those
who opposed Parliamentary Reform wished to destroy
it altogether.
Mr. DOUGLAS could not make himself content
to risk the safety of the country on the adoption of
the theories of any individual, however respectable
the individual might be. He must, therefore, oppose
the motion.

Mr. C. WYNN rose amidst cries of question. He
observed that the Noble Lord who brought forward
this motion had said, that whether amongst Whigs
or Tories, wherever they went, the present Represen-
tation was abhorred. He would deny that assertion,
and would stand on his own individual character,
(Hear, heardrom all parts). He would appeal to his
own undeviating course—(Hear). This might ap-
pear like vanity in him, but he would repeat it, his
undeviating conduct, which had for its object the
good of the People—(Hear). He said this femleSsly.
He was returned to Parliament by as numerous and
respectable a body of individuals as the Noble Lord
—(Hear). He had recently been before them ; had
explained his conduct, and receivtd their approval,
and was again returned by them, and stood as proudly
in the House as the Noble Lord did—(Hear). The
Noble Lord had again warmed up the bash, which
had previously been served out at a County Meeting.
He had expected that the talent of the Noble Lord
would have furnished him With something new, and'
that he would not have been driven back, by his po-
verty, to this stale dish—(Hear). He (Mr. Wynn)
had been obliged to abandon those with whom he had ,
for some time acted, because they had abandoned
those principles upon which be had been induced to
join them. The Right Hen. Gentleman then pro-
ceeded to speak to the motion, which he said was
dangerous to the safety of the State, and therefore he
should oppose it.
Mr. F. ROBINSON alluded to what had been
said of his conduct, in voting to keep up the office
elf-Joint Postmaster ; he had not voted thus with a
view to support corrupt representation, but as neces-
sitry to keep up the due influence of the Crown.
The Right Hon. Gentleman then came to a review
of the arguments adduced in support of the present
motion, and declared himself an opponent to it, as a
dangerous innovation on the Constitution.
Mr. CANNING said, if he had not been so point-
edly called upon, he would not, at that hour, have
risen to address the House. He had been called

upon to bring forward new arguments, or to abandon
old opinions ; and it had been declared, that it was
impossible for him (Mr. Canning), after the opinions
he had promulgated, to be any other than a Demo-
crat, or aft iend to moderate Reform. But not being
either of these characters, he begged leave to state
the grounds of his former opinions—and if there ever
were a period when he could do so with more satis-
faction to himself than another, it was now, when a
debate was just created to effect such a change in the
constitution of Parliament, as would endanger the
whole of our monarchical fabric ; and that coupled
with the admission, that if we looked to the autho-
rity of the mass of our Nobility, our Gentry, our
Clergy, to the mass of the country's intelligence, all
was against such a Parliamentary Reform—(Hear).
—The proposition of the Noble Lord (Lord John
Russell) could not be adopted, because no one was
acquainted with what was to follow, or if the wildest
schemes might not be introduced, which would be
binding upon the Parliament in all after times.—
if the Resolution of the Noble Lord were affirmed,
possibly the next step would be the addition of 100
Members, for whom room was to be made by taking
from 100 of the smaller Boroughs one-half of their
present Representatives. The Noble Lord cited autho-
rities on this point, and amongst others mentioned
the name of Mr. Pitt. The House, however, would
be pleased to recollect the last plan of Mr. Pitt was
`to establisb a fund of a million sterling to buy up de-

44;
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`ca iti &kit • offer
use,g 1, which might . off
and substitrite for them an 'addit:.
of Representatives fdr Counties: Many gral
ritifi were cited by the Noble Lord, but C.
nins) held in his hand an extract, &m an
which he would not name until the W.
possession of what it contained: It stated.
to cutting away rotten Boroughs, I should be quite'
offended to see so many of them as now exist, either
at the disposal of the Crown or private persons. I
may be charged with a want of integrity, when I say
how much I should startle at so extensive a chantie,
but..l would not unduly disfranchise a single Bo-
rough, even if it were to improve the Constitu-
tion: The House might, perhaps, imagine that
this extract was taken from some ancient Tory or
bigotted Divine; but how would they be surprised
to hear that it was nothing more nor less than an
extract from the opinions of Junius—(Hear, hear).
He (Mr. Canning) agreed with Junius, and would
object to taking away the franchise of others by
force, though he thought it might be forfeited by
guilt or compromise. The Noble Lard had told them
of the great change which had taken place in the opi-
nions of the Reformers—that those who were for-
merly so clamorous for Universal Suffrage and An-
nual Parliaments would now be satisfied with mo-
derate Reform. The fact might be so; but on what
grounds was that change stated to have occurred?
He saw nothing, in the course of the last two years,
during which a Noble Lord (Folkestone) said he had
been meditating on his (Mr. Canning's) speeches, to
lead him to think that those who then entertained
such wild and visionary unticuts of Reform had been
since divested of them. The Honourable Gentleman
then adverted to the various plans of Reform which
had been proposed at different times, and denied al-
together the existence of any grievances, or any prac-
tical defect in the present constitution of the House,
so as to call for the adoption of such fearful changes
as had been proposed. In a popular Assembly, when
the concerns of a free State were discussed, there al-
ways was, and would be, a sort of party feeling in-
fluencing its decisions more or less. No possible al-
teration in the mode of election, as long as human
nature continued what it was either in Athens or
in Rome, as well as in Britain, could eradicate
that vice—if, indeed, it were a vice—could alter
that quality, be it harmless or otherwise, which
would mix itself up in a debate, as to the conduct
of those persons in whose hands the affairs of a
nation might be confided—(Hear, hear, hear).—
In the instance of the Revolution the Noble Lord
admitted the Parliament might have done wisely in
contradicting the temporary expression of its consti-
tuents; and there could not be the slightest shadow
of doubt, that if the majority of the people were
then polled, they would have been against that Revo-
lution; but the Parliament, acting in its higher and
larger capacity, decided for the people's interests
against their prejudices. Therefore, be argued, the
House was not defective merely because it did not
instantly respond to the opinions of the public. It
would, in his opinion, be a base and cowardly House
which, after duly deliberating, adopted a great pub-
lic measure, should it be frightened into an acquies-
cence with the mere temporary excitement which
might exist upon that measure. There was another
question in illustration of this opinion—a question
which he had more at heart than perhaps any other
of his political life, he meant the Roman Catholic
Question, and upon that, he had no: the slightest doubt,
they ran before the sense of the country, which was
now rapidly coming up to them (Hear, h ear).— He had
no doubt that in all their early votes on that mcst
important question, they had not the country with
them ; but he was equally sure the period rapidly
advanced, when the country would be convinced the
House of Commons acted as they ought to have
done—(Hear, hear).—lf, then, on such great ques-
tions—questions before which almost all others sunk
into insignificance—the House of Common; were
either against or ran before the opinions of the
country—in such a case the proposition of the Noble
Lord was dashed to the ground when he stated the
representative system to be imperfect, because it did,
not give an immediate echo to the wishes of the people.
His own belief was, that the adoption of a Reform might bring I
them a temporary popularity, which would soon be converted
into lasting reproach. Before he lent his countenance to any
change whatever, he must have it distinctly specified : if his con-
version was worth accepting, he desired to behold the beau ideal
of the Noble Lord—that image of political good by' which his
reason was thus fascinated. Some theorists were fond of tracing
back the Constitution to that night of history, where all that
could be clearly discovered was, that when a Parliament met, it
usually sat a fortnight, and granted a subsidy; when it was se.
lected by the Sheriff, or great man of the county, rather than
chosen by the People. Ile was contented with a House which,
though it was not the immediate transmitter of the will of the
People, was in every respect competent to the purposes for which
it had been formed. It was possible to look with so curious an
eye into the formation of all bodies, corporate or politic that at
length a doubt would arise as to their capability to discharge
their functions. Man himself was curiously made, and he be-
lieved that the first effect of the study of anatomy was, to excite
surprise that the human skeleton could be the frame of a being
whom GOD had appointed to rule over the rest of the creation.
" Ccelumque tuerl,
Jussit et erectos ad sidera tullere vultus."
The Noble Lord had told them that the defects of the represen-
tative system had not escaped the notice of our ancestors at the
Revolution, but that they had thought fit to leave the frame of
Parliament as they had found it. The Borough of Old Sarum
had been then in existence, and all the other Boroughs which
were so repeatedly pointed out as disfiguring the Constitution ;
and yet they still continued the name, nay, he believed were in
some instances represented by persons of the very same names
as those who had been their representatives at that period. Yet
the Revolution had been established, the House of Hanover had
been placed on the Throne, and the Noble Lord had admitted
that had the Parliament been then reformed, they would have
undone the Revolution, and unseated the House of Hanover.—
(Cheers.)— Who, he asked, could now tell them how the Senate
of Rome had been elected ? He confessed that he could not,
and he even doubted whether the Hon. Member opposite (Mr.
Bankes) could solve the dilliculty—(A laugh.)—But he knew
the way in which a part of them bad been elected, and that was
not the way which our reformers could countenance, for it was
through office. Yet they had been found equal to the discharge of
the functions of Government; they had conquered the world,
and been found adequate to maintain their superiority—(Hear.)
we looked back at our own history we should find the same I
abuses had then existed as were complained of now ; and it
might be curious for those who wished so strenuously to correct
existing abuses, to see how the same matter bad existed In the
reign of Henry VI. an era often referred to as the period when
the Parliament was in its greatest purity. In that reign a cer-
tain Duchess had thus written to a Sir J. •Rirtoe—gs We greet
you heartily ; as it is necessary that my Lord the King, should
have in Parliament such persons as belong tome to be his menial
servants—(A laugh)—We desire that, upon the receipt of this
letter, you return John --.......- and to be Knights of the
Shire"—(Laughter). Ile would say, therefore, that ifthese abuses
still continued, they Anneal from imitation, nut from degeneracy.
lie proceeded to read other letters, in one of which my Lord
of Norfolk, with another Peers wets represented to have been

. -

.
.

_Amen would r. ,
found to hate been not greatly improved. in the reign last al-
luded to, there was a letter extant from the Countess of Pem-
broke to Sir Joseph, who had audaciously written to her to re.;
commend a certain Member to someplace. If tan thus--" I have
been bullied by an usurper, I hate been abused by a Court,
but I won't be dictated to by a subject—the man shan't stand.".
He had considered it righe, In the first instance, to spew the
influence which females had then exorcised ; he would new read
one Which had proceeded from a different quarter. This letter
was one front the Lord Keeper Somerset to Lord Russell, often
ing to get his sun returned for the Ceti fly of Middleset, " if he
would stand one dry for Westminster." Now what, he askedi
would be said at the present day, if inch a propoiition were to
be made by the Lord Chancellor? The Hon. Gentleman next
alluded to the punishments which• had folltivred some recent in:
stances of corrupt boroughs. Ile trusted the Mine would not
suppose that he was willing to justify improper transactions of
the nature which he had just alluded to. On the contrary, he
was desirous that, in all cases where malpractices were primed
to have prevailed, the House should deal severely with the
guilty. Ile had exemplified this on a late occasion, when he
gave his support to the measure which went to disfranchiseGrant-
pound, and transfer its elective privilege to the County of York:
It was worthy of remark, by the way, that this measure had not
called forth any congratulation on the part of the Inhabitants of
Yorkshire ; on the contrary, the new privilege appeared to be
considered as an inconvenience. For his own part, he had
ways been of opinion that Yorkshire ought to receive an aci
cession of Members, and therefore he gladly contented to the
measure which proposed OS carry his views into effect. This was
the species of Reform for which he would always vote; but he
did not believe that the change proposed by the Noble Lord
Would infuse into the Constitution a more Wholesome spirit. He
did not believe, that by increasing the power of the People in
the manner proposed to increase it, or by a short duration of
Parliament, so as to take away all stability of counsel, they
could do more, or discharge the funtttons of Government better
than was done at present, or add one atom to the civil liberty
or to the political importance of this country—( Hear, hear).—
" There are (continued the I-lon. Member) many wild theories
abroad. I impute not blanie to any man who entertains them,
but I do not wish to Se 2 our own Constitution modelled upon
them. Other nations, animated by the liberty which this count
try has enjoyed, have in many instances either copied our Con.:
stitution, or shot beyond it. It is, therefore, a consideration to
keep that Constitution pure, that it may serve as a landmark
and an example to other nations. I grudge not the liberty en-
joyed by other nations: in the name of GOD let them enjoy it, and
let them see that the liberty which we possess has been the
growth of a system which a century and a half has pet feeted, and
that under that system we are found content. I know that there
are persons who entertain ideas of liberty incompatible with any
restrictions, and who would Wish to be

" Free as. Nature first made man,
Ere the base laws of servitude began,
When, wild, in woods the noble savage ran!'
" When Nature first made man,

Ere the vile servitude of life began!"
These are grand ideas, but they must be compromised for the
general safety: they may agitate the bosom, but they ought tei
be chastened by the judgmeest. I would not sail in search of
an unattainable object : I would not seek that degree of liberti
in which we might sigh (as other nations have sighed) even for
the change of a military despotism :
" 0 qui me gelidis in montibus ILemi
Sistat et ingenti ramorurn protegat umbra :"
Let Its preserve our present Cumtitution as a holy depository--;
and let us not aim at such an .:I:erzthin .a) may involve the sae
crifice of the whole. To the Noble Lord who has this evening
brought forward the motion, I offer my thanks for his candid,
able, fair, and ingenious conduct.• If in the remarks which
have made I have said anything that bears the ippearance of
disrespect to him, I hope he will acquit me of having done so in-
tentionally. Hut on this, the last time when I shall have the op-
portwity of raising my voice on the subject, I conjure the House
to pause before it consents to the proposed Reso:ution. If the
Noble Lord does succeed, if he does triumph this evening in the
success of his motion, then be his the glory of having produced
the result which he sought, but be mine at least the consolation
of having zealously opposed it. (The lion. Gentleman con-
eluded amidst enthusiastic and continued cheering).
Mr. DEN lAN said, the facts to which the Right
Hon. Gentleman bad alluded, proved the state of unnatural
disease, which could only be remedied by an uncorrupt House
of Commons, which had really the interest of the people at heart.
He (Mr. Denman) contended that the general conduct of the
House was opposed to the wishes of the people. The Right
lion. Gentleman had himself furnished some proofs of this,
and he could produce another in the case of the late Queen. He
did not think that the !louse should blindly obey the wishes of
the people, whether they were proper or not; but in such a case
as that to which he had last referred, when not only the whole
mass of the people in this country, but the whole of Europe, were
1 unanimous in condemning the proceedings which were irstitmed
against her Majesty, not to pay some deference to the wishes of
their constituents, betrayed, on the part of the House, a contempt
for public opinion which never ought to be exhibited in a free state.
The House had recently witnesses! the disgraceful spectacle of a
set of miserable witnesses brought :o their bar, having a full
knowledge of the acts of corruption, which it was the object of
the :louse to ascertain, but endeavouring to elude detection by
the grossest prevarication. If there were any individuals less en-
titled to compassion than these wretched agents, it was their
principals, who sat in that House, through their agency, trem-
bling for the issue of their loathsome falsehoods. He was per-
suaded that if the evidence on this subject taken before their
Committees were more generally circulated among the People,
the cry for Reform would be still louder than it was. It was
high time that the People of England should be fully, fairly, and
freely represented in the House of Commons, when corruption
was preying on the vitals of the Constitution, when she
" Mounts the tribunal, rears her scarlet head.
And sees pale virtue trembling in her stead I"
It was impossible for the House to regain the respect of t%
People, unless they consented to Reform themselves. The de.
claration of the Right lion. Gentleman ( Mr. Peel) last night,
that be was prepared to resist an unanimous vote of the House
of Commons, was a pretty good hint that that body had lost the
just weight and influence which they ought to possess in the Cm-
stitution. The lion. and Learned Gentleman concluded by de..
cluing that he should give hiscordial support to the motion.

Lord .1011 N it USSI 1.1. shortly replied. The want of agree-
meat in a specific plan had been objected. The same objectioa,
if valid, ought to have been fatal to the Revolution; for there
had not been two Members who would have agreed in the object
for which the Prince of Orange was to be called over--(Hear).
Mr. PEEL rose, not to explain away or to retract what he
had said last night, but to repeat, that he would not be the in-
strument of a measure which be did not conscientiously ayprOve
of. It was not from disrepect to the House, but from a con-
scientious conviction that Mr. Hunt was not a proper object for
the Royal mercy.—The House divided—
_ _ _

Ayes - - - - 164
Noes - - - - 269
Majority against the mntion . - —lO5
This result %V.'S received with loud and repeated cheering by
the Oppuition.—Adjourned at half-past two.

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•

41
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