Star.
London, England, 1825-02-15 00:00:00

Mr. NORTH deeleite4 that his Opinion of 'tie pre.l
'sent measure was, that it would advance the cease of
the Catholics, and state how it the stigma which tile_
viotende and folly of some inefficient Men had cast upon
It. The Hon. and Learned -Gentleman who had just
At down, had promulgated a great number of general
ptittciples, tq all of which he assented, but considered
that he failed when he came to the application of them.
There he :brook from the true question before the
House, and eatrencheckhimself behind the strong bul-
wark f the Catholic Cause. If it were admitted that

the Common; House of Parliament represented the peo-
ple according to the spirit of the Constitution, he thought
it must necessarily follow that any other assembly, pro-
kissing to represent the people, must be a violation of
4thiConstitution. This then, was the question as regarded
k,e Catholic Association. He cared not how it was
Seected, nor by whom, whether it was voluntary or not,
!'6 lOng as they were afterwards confirmed the represen-
litives of the people. It was indifferent to him how
the mischief came, so that it actually existed. If any
'stranger were found in his house in actual possession of
his property, controuling his servants, and threatening
his life, he would not stop to inquire whether he was
let in by the door or got in by the: window, but proceed
at once to eject him. So if he found the Catholic As-
sociation seducing the affections of the people from the
legitimate object of the Commons House of Parliament,
he should consider himself called upon to suppress
them. Now, Mr. O'Connell told the Association he did
not care for the shadow, it was the substance he looked
to, and that they possessed. "Do we not," said he,
represent the people? Ask the Priests, ask the people
'who pay their money, and look at the members ea-'
rolled r It was a question whether this state of things
was not attended with imminent danger to the peace of
ille country? He knew that 10,0001. or 100,0001. rent
was very little to procure Emancipation ; but the
question did not rest there. The greatest evil had es-
caped the attention of the House. He alluded to the
Catholic Rent. Every meeting on that subject was
a minor association, held in every part of the country.
Those meetings were in the abodes of persons, in
Chapels and distant parts, where the conductors were
not under the censorship of the press. This he consi-
dered a great evil ; the meetings were under the super-
intendence of the Catholic Poesthood. In Dublin all
went out publicly. It was circulated in the country,
and came back dark and poisonous. One was a dark
stream of religious rancour, the other a turbulent whirl-
pool bf political animosity. Front the disposition of his
mind, he should be the first to excuse the ebullition of
a popular assembly, but there was something in the-de-
bates of the Catholic Association which applied to the
darker periods. There had been things done which
some of the Catholic Association did not feel conscien-
tiously to be their own sentiments. He knew Mr.
O'Connell, and was sure there was something which
governed that Gentleman, and told him all the mea-
sures of the Association.were not those he could sup-
port. Ministers and Masters were placed above him.
It was stated in the proceedings of the Catholic Asso-
ciation, that all werecif one mind. Was that the case ?
These was emulation in violence. What was cool and
temperate to-day, was violent yesterday. The Asso-
ciation next year, if suffered to exist, would be more
violent than this. He might ask whether the proceed-
ings of its members wele in accordance with the prin-
ciples of the Constitution ? chknge or fluctuate as they
might, their Measures were those of irritation. Their
aim was to vilify every man in private • life, whom
they considered hostile to their objects. The Right Hon.
Secretary for Ireland had stated two cases in which there
had been a most outrageous attempt to charge a person
with murder, and 'a soldier with a disposition to procure
unlawful oaths. -There was an acquittal in both cases.
An 11-nourable and Learned Gentleman said those
cases proved nothing. How did' it happen they were
acquitted? Why, truth, as it generally is, was apparent,
but if truth had not been distinguished, and there had
been a conviction, what would the prosecutors have
said ? It had been assumed there was a maladminis-
tration of justice, and that the Institution had proved a
check upon it. He denied there had been any mal-
administration. He had practised at the Irish Bar since
1811, and from the acquittal of Doctor Sheridan, down
to the prosecution against Mr. O'Connell, he had never
known a perversion of justice—(Hear,hear). He begged
the House to attend to the recommendation of the great
advocate of the Catholic Association. Cobbett told the,
Catholic Aisociation two months since to draw up a
statement of the acts of oppression of which they cores
plained. If they gave that statement to the people of
England, they would attend to it more than long
speeches. That was sensible advice, but they did not
attend to it. The acts of oppression had no foundation
but in the wicked plans of those who fabricated them.
The Member for Limerick spoke of acts of oppression.
Had he named any? It was said they might obtain
tranquillity through the medium of the Association, but
admitting that to be so, would not the Parliament pay
too dear for it ? Was it not putting an iron sceptre into
the hands of the Association, and a reed in the hand of•
the Marquis of Wellesley ? He would not accept tran-
quillity on such ternis. The voice which called for
peace with deadly hatred of a fellow-man *as unnatural.
It was impossible to preserve peace by won king on the
best feelings of Ireland. With respect to the Orange
L) dges, of which so much had been said, the very name
of Orangeman implied everything detestable to the Ca-
tholics. It was a cloak in their ideas for everything odious.
He might fairly presume, that by the term Orangemen,
the Catholics of Ireland meant Protestants. As against
the Orangemen they said they could not be tranquil,
bat cherish against them eternal enmity. He knew
there were some who would resist such sentiments,
but they had not come forward to contradict them.
Lord Killeen bad come forward in a manner werthy.
his ancient house and noble name. He was surpi ised
ether Catholic Noblemen and Gentlemen did not come
forward to rescue their cause from such hands. In
his opinion, his fellow-countrymen would never obtain
their object whilst they continued to hold towards Pro-
testants a feeling alienative—(Hear, hear). By holding
tut the right hand of conciliation they could only hope
to succeed. It had been said, the Catholic Association
!ass counter-association. He denied that assertion.—
When did it come forward ? Not before the Orange-
men were discarded by Government, and the arm of
Power was raised to crush them. If the Orangemen
should again rally, which Heaven forbid, the disorder
which might ensue would be occasioned by the Catho-
lics. The Bible Societies had been charged with being
the cause of the outrages on the part of the Associa.
bon, but no OtAll who knew the excellent and exem-
plary manner in which those Societies acted, could give
the least credit to such a statement. The Association
should be put down by force, and unless the Catholics
wished to heap coals of lite on their own heads, they

1

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arouldaot oppose the good fedi* of their Protestant
fslow.subjects. Having dueling his madasents ea this important
subject, he should mons to kuiaad, where he knew Ise might be
deprived of the regard and eases
Wad marry who should, NAV'
madding, receive estivate-thine' -War sentiments might di or
from his owls. He saw the soonsfty Of supporting the Hill. be-
cause Ike would keep up the spiiit of tie Constitution-4 Hear !):•--
' that pan of the Ouustitution which made Padianient the sole au-
thority for laws, besauss it he up the dignity of the law and Go-
, 'ferment, and preserved the peace ot the country.
Dr. LUSHINGTON animadverted upon the attack
of the Honourable Member for Londonderry (Mr. Daw-
son) upon the whole body of the Catholics. He denied
the justice of estimating any society or any individual
by one or twaisolated acts. He might instance this
very House to shew the injustice of such a mode of
judging; for would that House be estimated according
to the expressions that certain Members might use ? He
could make reference, too, to another society, of which
the Right Honourable Secretary for the Home Depart-
ment (Mr. Peel) was President, and Mr. Speaker was a
member : he might as well name it at once—" The
University Club." Certain books were subscribed for
by that Club. Well, on looking into the records of that
Society he found,.for he did not pretend to know much
about its forms, but in the records he found it propo,ed
to have " The Memoirs of Harriette Wilson" ordered

—(Loud laughing.) The next entry he found was .‘ A
plain Bible proposed," rejected—(lntinense laughter.)—
The 4, Memoirs of a Woman of Pleasuie" was among
them ; but he would not hurt the feelings of Noble Lords
and Honourable Gentlemen, Members of that Noose—
(Question, question) by more minute allusions. He only
would put this to the House, if they would do him the ho-
nour to hear him: suppose it were proposed to put down
such a Club as that to which he had alluded, would it
not be an easy matter to declaim against it as a
Society that took in the most licentious books and re-
jected the Bible?—(Hear, hear.) Oppression must ne-
cessarily take place when too great privileges were en-
joyed by any party. The privileges r,f the Church of
Ireland were its weakness, and would be its destruction. With
respect to the proclamations of the Association, but one sentence
could be fixed upon of an objectionable nature. This, however.
when rightly understood, was harmless. In passing the present
penal enactment he was convinced that the House would not si-
lence Use eloquence of Mr. O'Connell, or suppress the efforts of the
Catholic Priests.

`The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER then
rose, and a general attention was rest red in the House
and Galleries. He spoke as follows ;—Exhausted as I
perceive Ilse House is with the pr..tracted discussion
which has now been continued for three nights, and
hopeless as I certainly am that any observation I can
offer can add any force or variety to the powerful ar-
guments that have been on all sides advanced, yet II
confess that I feel most anxious to state to the House
the reasons that influence me in rising to address them
under such circumstances. I feel that anxiety, not
merely because the question itself is of pecuiia
portance, but also because, during the discussions, ob.
servations have been made, having, I may say, a per-
sonal application, and therefore, I think, demand (rum
me, as a Member of the Administration, an unequivocal'
reply. But, first, I take leave to observe, that during
the whole of the debate—and the circumstance, from
the view I have taken,of the question, is a subject of no
small satisfaction—nb one Gentleman, however deter.
mined in his opposition to the principle of the proposed
Bill, has either directly or distinctly attem,;ted to de-
fend the existence or the acts of the Catholic Associa-
tion—( Hear, hear).—True they have en, eavoureJ to
account for its existence—true they have assumed that
its existence arose from the situation in which a great
portion of thc people of Ireland are placed. Not one
opposer of the present measure has defended that As-
sociation, from the very first Gentleman who answered,
the speech of my Right Honourable friend who intro.
Iluced it (Mr. Goulburn), down to the last speaker, ie.
eluding even the eloquent address of the Honourable
Member, whose influence was so deservedly great in
that House (Sir James Mackintosh.) On the contrary,
all those Gentlemen most studiously avoided any such
defence ; indeed, the whole gist 'of their hostility went
to the assumption that the Bill ought to be defeated,
because there existed another remedy,which,if adopted,
rendered the enactment altogether unnecessary—
that the denial of that remedy arose from the constitu-
tion of the present Administration, and to the principles
on which that Administration were founded—most par-
ticularly to that part of it which had heretofore de-
clared their opinions in favour of the remedy, and to
whom all the evils of Ireland were to be attributed at
this moment. As I am in that very situation, Sir, to
which such a weighty responsibility has been affixed—
as I feel most fully the extent and character of that
responsibility, and shOuld regret, deeply regret, that any
act of mine could be fairly made accountable for those
evils which, I candidly allow, the situation of Ireland
presents—(Hear, hear, from all sides of the House)—
I have, as I before said, been most anxious to express
my sentiments, and especially to declare myself to this
House—( Hear).—l must be allowed to say, however,
that I do not think, that in throwing out these imputa-
tions, jestice has been done to the Government. I do
not think that those who have so unsparingly indulged
them have condescended (and it was most material for
a candid view of the subject) to recollect the circum-
stances under which the present Administration was
formed—(Hear.)—The Administration which pre-
ceded it—l mean that of which the late Mr. Percival
was the head—was determinedly opposed to the repeal
of the Catholic restrictions as a question of Govern-
ment. The members of that Administration, in their
views on that subject, though united as to the end, dif-
fered, no doubt, as to the motives which influenced
them. Some were opposed to the repeal of these re-
strictions from an opposition to the principle; others
on the ground of inexpediency. On the death of Mr.
Percival, by an Act of this House, followed up by an
Address to the Crown,the remaining part of that Admi-
nistration were left in a most singular situation. That
Address called for the-establishment of a Ministry who
would possess the public confidence. In consequence
of such a declaration on the part of the House of Com-
mons, various. negotiations took place amongst the
great political parties of the country. These negocia-
tions failed—failed, I must be allowed to state, from
the inexplicable blunders of those who would now visit
us with those consequences which their own conduct
produced—( Hear, hear).—For if the state of Ireland
is of that complexion which they draw—if soca evils
as they predict are to follow from the want of the re-
medy which they prescribe, let it be recollected, that
it was the Honourable Gentlemen opposite, who now
remind us of our responsibility, that threw away their
own chance—(Hear).—Under such circumstances, the
presert Government was formed, and by the circum-
stances of the period, like all other human establish-
ments, it was controuled. That the question, as to Ire-
land, remained in the situation in which it stands, is an
evil I shall never deny—(Cheers from all parts of the