Star.
London, England, 1801-03-19 00:00:00

MARTIAL I.AW IN IRELAND.

The Houfe then went into a Committee on the
Martial Law Bin, and the claufe extending its du
ration to three months from the 25th of Match
next was agreed to.
Lord CASTLEREAGH fhortly Rated that, though
he was perfeelly convinced that no court martial
had ever fat which was compofed of fo fmall a
number as three, and though he was perfuaded
that it would be more expedient that this, as
well as all other particular regulations, fhould be
fettled by the Lord Lieutenant, refponfiblc as he
was for the manner in which he employed the ,
power veiled in him by the Bill, he was willing to
accede to an amendment for the fake of fatisfying
any fcruples which might era in the minds of
Gentlemen on the fubjeet. For this purpofe he
propofed that the number neceflltry to conßitute a
court martial fitting under the terms of the AiFt
fhould be increafed to feven, and that two-thirds of
this number fhould in all cafes be neceffary to lane-
tion the execution of the fentences of courts mar-
tial. He did this, not becaufe he was inclined to
believe that it would give any additional eternity
to the conflitutional exercife of the Aft, or that lie
was difpofed to allow that, in any cafe, the fen-
tences of courts martial under the Bill had been ,
executed, except on an unanimous judgment. He
did it folely with the view of doing away any dila-
greeable impreflions which the claufe in the Aft
rendering three fufficient for a court martial was
calculated to infpire.
The SPEAKER thought that the Committee had
no power to make amendments on the Bill, but
were merely to come to a refolution on the conti-
nuation of its feveral claufes. Any amendments,
he conceived, ought regularly to be propofed
when the Report'was received by the Houfe.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR conceived that the amend-
ments would be difcuffed with much more advan-'
tage in a Committee, and therefore fuggefted the
propriety of reporting progrefs, and afking leave
to fit again. This fuggeftion being acceded to,
the Houfe was refumed, progrefs was reported, and
leave was obtained to fit again, with liberty of
making amendments on the Bill.
The Houfe accordingly was a fecond time re-
(dived into the Committee.

Mr. GREY faid, that his objeCtions to this mea-
fure were fundamental and infuperable, nor could
he ever, on fuch evidence as had been offered to
the Houfe in fupport of its neceffity, confent to
fanftion a fyftem of cocrcion which was to put the
People of Ireland out of the reach of the protec-
tion of the Conftitution. Thinking, however, as
he did, of the meafure, he felt it to be kis duty to
endeavour to introduce fuch amendments as would
render it as little as pofßble offenfive in its opera-
tion. He therefore approved of the claufes pro-
pored, but did not think they went far enough to
meet the ends propofed, nor did he conceive that
the Noble Lord, in bringing them forward, had
fufficiently followed up the principles on which the
Mutiny Aft was founded. He raw no reafon .whir
there fhould, in the cafe of this Bill, beany depar-
tme from the principle on which that Aft was
framed, refpeCting the number of whom a court
martial was to be compofed. In no part aids
Majcfty's dominions in Europe, was a lefs number
than 13 neceffary to conftitute a court martial,
though in Africa and South Wales, from cirenm-
'lances peculiar to them, not a greater number
than five might fometimes fit for the trial of de-
linquents. linters, therefore, the Noble Lord
could Phew that there was fomething in the (tate
of Ireland which juftified the appointment of a
number (mailer than that fixed by the Mutiny Aft,
lie would maintain that the regulations which it
contained fhould be adhered to. On this prin-
ciple he fhould move as an amendment, that no
court martial fitting under this ASR fhould confift
of fewer than t 3 individuals.
Mr. GREY then proceeded to enter at confide-
rale length on the ufe which had, during the two
laft years, been made of the Aft,and contended
that however great the humanity of the Lord
Lieutenant was, this was far from being a fatif-
faftory argument in favour of the continuance -of
the meafure. In a conflitutional view, it was to
be withed that the power which the Aft vefted in
the Executive Government fhould be exercifed iu
its full extent, fence if at its commencement it was
ufed with levity, the public might have to con-
template its dangerous nature. It was however
never to be forgotten that a power which might
be ufed tyrannically, ought in no in(lance to be
granted, except in cafes of ftrong necetlity, fuch
as he had not heard produced to the Houfe in flip-
port of the meafttre. That the Bill was capable
of this eyrannical application no man could pre-
tend to difpute, for by the preamble of the Bill it
was enafted that the Lord Lieutenant could,
without even a form of trial, take up any per f his
whom he firfpefted of rebellion, and infliddeath on
them, or any other punilhmcnt which lie judged to
be expedient. That the prefent Lord Lieutenant
ufed this power with every poi:1161e degree of hu-
manity he was far from withing to deny, but
judging fuch a power to be highly dangerous, he
thought another amendment neceffary, that no
punithment fhould be inflifted till after the charge
had been declared to be proved by a court martial.
Mr. Yoitx (the new Secretary at War) argued
againft the claofe, which would have for its ob-
! jeCt tt. make thitteen neceffary to conftitute a
court martial, bee :ufe he conceived that in many
cafes it might be difficult to offemble Officers with
that degree of promptncfs, which was one grand
objett oldie Bill. By making this number
tial, he was convinced that the punilhment of the
rebellious would be retarded, and there would be
a dif..aulty of carrying on the pitbliz fer rice.
Mr. Gary, in reply, contended that the incon.
venience which in any cafe would refult from ap-
p)inting thirteen perfons to every court martial,
v niithing to be eta intlie fcale with. the lives.
of Brii li t thjrCts, which might ruler by a frna:ler

number. He hoped, therefore, that the Com-
mittee would be difpofed to agree to the amend-
ment propofed.
Mr. Yr)Rita Paid a few words in explanation.
The SPEAKER entered into an elaborate legal
definition of the meaning of the AEI, and argued
that its object was to enable the Lord Lieutenant
to execute martial law partially, without proclaim-
ing it generally over the country.
Dr. LAURENCE argued at confiderable length in
fiipport of the amendments propofed, and main-
tained, that as the ASR now flood it left a very
dangerous difcretionary power in the hands of the
Executive Government. It did not appear to him
to be at all aflimilated to the Mutiny A. becaufe
the one was calculated to punifh rebellion in tb .
field, wheieas the other relied in the officers oftin
army, or thole commillioned by the Lord Lieute-
nant, with a difcretionary power which might be
proltituted for the nioft deftruClive purpofes. He
reprobated, in kiong terms of condemnation, the
idea that the lives and property of Britilh fubjeil.
'Wald h entrufted to the deeition of five indivi-
duals. Ile had lit:died 1.1:c hiltury el till., country,
and he was ready to produce ancient records to
the Noble Lord who 'had introduced the nicaltire.
• by which it would appear that every city, av y
diftriCt, every province exhibited fettles of z ela 1.
lion fully as dreadful in their nature as any %illicit
the late rebellion in Ireland 1, id ctbibited, yet
in none of them had a meatnre oia camplealea to
dangerous as the prefent been retorted to. Pc
law no reafon why foldiers, who in many inftar-
ces, cruelly murdered the peaffintry of Ireland.
thould enjoy a fairer form of trial than thole who
had been guilty of exceffts during the lie:glit c t
the rebellion? Why thole who had voluntati:r
fubmitted to enter into a Rate which by its
did not admit of the rcgular finms of lava should
enjoy advantages on a trial which wos efated to
'thnfe on whom a meafure was impoked by fore.,
which fnperceded the exercise of ail law.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL thou3ht that in a
queftion for the prolongation of a meafiire, which
had been hated to have been proJeaive of the
happieft effeCts—which was to be caeicifed by a
' Noble Perfonage, on whole ufe of the power vett-
ed in him by the meafure, Gentlemen on both
fides of the Houfe had fpoken in terms of the
warmeD approbation ; and when fo much depend.
ed on the ufe which was made of the Bill, there
was no ground for fair diversity of opinioa. The
,only demand now made on behalf of the Sjter
Kingdom was, that a power which had e.c::
more than any other meafure could have done to
the extinction of rebellion, and the encouragement
of loyalty, should be continued for three months
under the management of a great charaCter, on
whofe Adminißration, even calumny itfeif, was
unable to attach a Clain. When it was Rated fully
to the Houfe that every poflible degree of atten-
tion had been employed to prevent abufe of the
meafure—when it was proved that every decifion
pf the courts martial was referred to. future ex-
amination—when it was proved that in all cafes
where doubts as to the legality of thefe decifions
had exifted, fuch doubts had been propofed for
folution to the higheft legal authorities in Ireland;
when all this was made out to the latisfaCtion of the
Houle, could there be any rational ground of ob.
jeetion to the continuance of the meafure for three
months ? Under all there circumflances filch a
demand was furely neither unconflitutional nor
unreafonable. He could not accede to the propu.
fition of the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Grey),
that thirteen fhould be neceltary to conftitute a
court martial, becaufe he apprehended that in a
variety of cafes this might be attended with very
great inconveniencies. If it happened that at any
time ten courts martial were fitting at the fame
time, one hundred and thirty officers would be ne-
celfary for this purpofe, and this would be far
too great a proportion of officers to be (pared from
the purpofes of the public fervice. To the opera-
tion of this meafure, he conceived the Houfe owed
their debating at this momcnt,and the prefervation
of their rights, their privileges, and their property.
The afpeet of the late rebellion, he conceived to
be unequalled not merely in the hiftory of this
country, but of any country under the globe ;
never had rebellion in any former ages difplayed
any which, to fuch a degree, involved the deftruc-
tion of all that is venerable in political or civil fo-
ciety--of all the focial affections which unite man
to man—of all the facred principles which bind
mankind to GOD. Having no reafon then to doubt
the beneficial confequencesof the meafure,and hay-
ing no caufe to queftion the humanity, firmnefs, or
impartiality of its exercife, he nutted the Houfe
would feel it their duty to continue its operation.
Mr. GREY was furprifcd at the fury with which
the Hor. and Learned Gentleman had fpoken on
the merits of the meafure ; but it only ferved the
more to convince him that it isnot uncommon for
men to have recourfe to declamation in the abfence
of reaffining. He recollected a Rory related by
Lord Shaftefbury, that acute obferver of human
nature, which appeared to him to be very appli-
' cable to the prefent occafion—This Rory the No-
ble Lord further relates of a perfon who was in
the habit of attending the courts of law, though
with the language in which all its bulinels was
tranfaCted he was altogether unacquainted. To
thole who remonftrated with him on his conduCt,
he replied, that though unacquainted with the lan-
guage of the orators, he was always able to know
who was in a paffion. On the general merits of
the meafure on which the Honourable and Learn-
ed Gentlemen had enlarged, he was at prefent un-
willing to enter, but if he were difpofed to follow
him over thee grounds, lie might reafonably cx-
prefs his doubt of the meafures of coercion which,
during four years, had been employed, when at
the end of thefe four years, rebellion and diffiffec-
' tion were Rated to exift to fuch a degree as to ren-
der it neceffary to fufpend all the forms of the
Conflitution. The perfonal confidence on which
the Honourable Gentleman had infifted, he could
not allow to be a principle which any friend to li-
berty ought to admit or to aft upon in any Le-
giflative meafure. However great was the cha-
rafter of Marquis Cornwallis, the Houle ought not
to give power of the nature which the Bill involv.
01 without a ftrong cafe of necelray, and this cafe

• •
'r had yet nt b' 1 r -
0. rec.* tyn een at before .he
Roufe. It was befides td be recollefled, that by
the Gazette Of Taft night, it appeared this great
Vohleman was no longer to continue at the head
Gf affairs In Ireland, and that Lord Hardwickc
seas appointed his fuccelfor. If then the Houfe
were to Ad oh a fyftem of confidence, it was cer-
tainly previoutly neceffary to prove Lord Hard-
wicke before he could be fafely entrufled with the
vaR powers which the Bill conferred. He belirv-
ed Lord Hardwicke to be an excellent man, and
one who would be far from employing the powers
which the Bill veiled in him to any improper pur-
poles. The Houle had yet no experience of his
INing worthy to be entrufled with it, and therefore
they ought to proceed on the principle that the
power may be abufed.
Mr. DAwsom was willing to agree to the amend-
ments propofed by the Honourable Gentleman who
had fpoke Taft, but could not allow that no cafe of
the general neceffity of the mcafure had been made
out to the Houfe. On the other hand, he thought
there was the belt pollible cafe, as it was one made
out by the reprefentations of the Irifh Gentry, who
fat as reprefentatives in the Houfe, and who had
Rated that a neceflity for the meallire now esified.
Tile Honourable Member then went on to the con-
fideration of the age of thole officers, according to
the Bill as it now flood, and maintained that it
was liable to ferious objections. He could not al- I
low to be juftifiable that thole whom the law of,
the land did not recognize as capable of managing
their own private affairs, fhould have entrufled to
them the lives and property of Bi itifh lubjcas.
Colonel Losrats contended that the rebellion in
Ireland was equal to any war, and that during its
height, it was far from being eafy to find a fuffi-
cient number of officers to fit on courts martial for
the trial of the rebels. He Rated, however, that
in almoft no cafe had fewer than nine officers com-
poled thefe courts. There was not, he averred,
a fingle hint Gentleman in the Houfe who would
not admit that Ireland was in great danger, and
therefore he was the more aftonithed to hear it al-
iened that no necellity for the mcafure now exifted.
Mr. TRENCH could not allow Ireland to be in
the Rate of danger which was reprefented ; but on
the other hand was convinced that it was now able
to protect itfelf. He could Rate with certainty
what fell under his own knowledge, and he would
affirm that the county he reprefented was as quiet
at this moment as England.
Lord De BLAWEILL aliened that inftances of
the affaffination of jurymen had occurred feveral
times within ahe laft two years. He withe that
the Judges who had been defcribed as having gone
their affixes in tranquillity, could be called to the
bar of the Houfe, that they might have an op-
portunity of Rating that they were favourable to
the law as having been inftrumental in relloting
public order.
Mr. GREY, Lord de BLAost ERE, and Dr. LAW-
RENCE then feverally explained.
Mr. OGLE laid that he had avoided entering into
any detail of the cruelties of the rebellion, but lie
could relate flories to the Houfe which would bar-
row up their fouls. He called on the Englifh Mem-
bers to beware of promoting any convulfion in Ire-
land, fince it would certainly return to their own
fhore. The Irifh Members he defer ibed as ftrangers
who had been taken in, but, now that they were
united, he [rutted they would Rand or fall to-
gether. He concluded by reminding them of the
famous maxim of antiquity—lea via azitur cum proxi-
mo rs parier ardet, and applied it to the prefent cir-
cumstances of Ireland.

Mr.TitEri cm and Mr. OGL a raid each a few words
in explanation.
Lord CASTLRIEAG fhortly dated the reafons
why he could not agree to the propofed amend-
ment. The queflion he conceived to be, whether
cafes might not occur where it would be extremely
inconvenient for the public fervice to have more
than feven officers on a court martial, though he
could affure Gentlemen, that in all cafes where it
was poffible, no lefs a number than 13 ever had
been or would be employed. But it was not fair
to contend, becaufe courts martial in moll cafes
confided of 13, that cafes could never occur where
it would be neceffary to depart from the general
rule. The Noble Lord having gone on to (hew
that cafes of filch a nature might not unfrequently
take place ; concluded by giving his decided op-
polition to the propofed amendments, as altoge-
ther ufelefs and inexpedient.
Mr. BROWN brought forward feveral proofs
drawn from the circumflances of counties with
which he was more particularly connected, that ap•
pearances of tranquillity in Ireland were of the molt
deceitful nature. In one county, he dated, that
on the Monday of one week there WAS every ap-
pearance of quiet, and in the end of the fame week,
20,000 rebels appeared in the field, co-operating
ith the French invaders. In another county.
while the Gentlemen of property and influence had
met for purpofes of conciliation, the rebels were
bufily occupied in burning the honks of their be-
nefactors. _ _ _

Mr. Maar in (of Galway) (poke at confiderable
length in oppofition to the propofed amendments.
Be let nut with remarking, that whether the Bill
tow offered to the Houfc was confidered in its Own
future, or in the time of its being brought for-
ward, it was equally honourable to the Noble
4rd who had introduced it to the Adminiftra•
ti .on the eve of retiring from office. After illuf-
t-ating this idea fully, he proceeded to viadicate
the zeal with which the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman (the Attorney General) had fpoken in
fupport of the Bill, and contended that lo far was
be from being liable to cenfure from the zeal with
which he had fpoken on this occafirn, that the
fubjeet was one on which no "ood man could help
entertaining a certain degree a interett anil ar-
dour. He objeEted to the propofed amendments
on the ground, that if any change was to take
• place in the meafure, it ought to originate with
Government, and that it was altogether unnecef-
far, to fpend fo much labour in improving a me:l-
- which was not defigned to be tailing, but of
temporary eziftence and operation.
After a few words from Mr. Grey, Mr. Trench,
Mr. Brown, and Lord Caftlereagh, the quellion
was loudly called for, and the Gallery was cleared.

• , . •
We titkelettlood, however, that the Anieraitue,t:
of Mr. Grey were negatived without
O. our return into the GAlery, Mt. Dawfon
rofe to move a Claufe, fixing, that no officer
fit on a Court Martial under this Aft who fhall'
not have completed his ztft year.
After a thort diteullion betwixt Mr. Dawfon and
Lord Caftlerea2,h, the Houfe di;iided, when there
appeared—For the Claufe 17--Againft it 7x—
Majority 55.
Mr. WHITBREAD brought ur a Claufc which in
rubfinnee was calculated to probtbit the ufe of tor-
ture in the execution of this Bill. , He fpoke with
great animation on the unjutlifiable nature of the
undefined fpecies of punifhment which might be
inflieled by this law. He gave full credit to all
that had I.t en faid of the humanity of the Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland, but contended that the
Houfe was hound to take care that the Execiitive
Government fhould in no cafe have the means of
inflifting undefined and unknown punifhments.
Lord CASTLEREARGH, in reply, repelled any
charge which might be intended againft the frith ,
Government as having tiled torture for the pur-
pore of extorting conteilious. He entered into a
detailed and elaborate defence of a celebrated
fpeech delivered on this rubjeCt by the Chancellor
of Ireland, And by a long induetion of particulars
attempted to thew that there was nothing in the
fpeech which did in the fmalleft degree offer any
jollification of the atrocious cruelties which the
rebellion had exhibited. The Claufe, therefore,
he judged to be unneceffary.
Mr. WHITBREAD denied that he meant to throw
out the leaft infinuation againft the prefent Lord
Lieutenant of Ireland ; but he maintained that the
Houfe ought to throw out of their confidcration
entirely who the individual is under whom thefe
powers are to be exercifed. The queflion was,
' whether the Lord Lieutenant would be authorized
by this Bill to inflift pundhments unknown to the
civil law ? and that this was the cafe no one could
deny. Had there been no inllances of Inch punifh-
ments having bten aCtually inflieted ? What were
the &IL orders iffued by the Lord Lieutenant upon
his arrival ? Thefe did more good than all the
feverity which had been exercifed before. Mr. W.
mentioned the conduel of the High Sheriff of Tip-
perary, and feveral other Magillrates, who had
been obliged to call for a Bill of Indemnity • by
rafting it the frith de Parliament had made 'dell a
party to their cruelties. He quoted feveral patfa-
ges from Lord Clare's celebrated fpeech, in which
he maintained and vindicated the ufc of torture to
force confeffion. It was only by a Claufe of this
nature that it was poffible to prevent thefe enor-
mities from being repeated.
Mr. J. C. BERESFORD faid, it was an eafy thing
for Gentlemen fecurely deliberating in that Houfe
to blame the conduit of thole who had been con-
cerned in quelling the rebellion in Ireland, but
had they been upon the fpot, had their property,
their wives and theie children been in danger, froni
the attempts of thefe fcoundrels, their hearts
would have bled rather for thofe who inflieted pu-
nifhment than for the culprits who fuffcred it. He
allowed that torture had been applied to force con-
feflion—it would be unmanly to deny it ;—torture
had been applied univerfally wherever infurreetion
appeared. But this conduit was by no means
h fanCtioned by Government, nor founded upon the
provifions of this Bill. The moment that Govern-
ment became acquainted with thefe prafkices, or-
ders were ailed for their being difcontinued.
Mr:Hostiousa contended that the lafk fpeakcr
had allowed that there were circumfkancesin which
torture was juttifiable. He denied that any could
exifk ; and that it might never be applied he voted
for this amendment.

Mr. jr. C. BERESFORD explained.
Mr. PEnctvat. and Mr. Dawson each (poke at
considerable length.
Mr. M. A. TAYLOR ('aid, whether the conduel
of thofe who had perpetrated thefe cruelties could
be palliated, that of thofe who coolly defended
them certainly could not. Yet this had been done
in die mofl folemn manner by a Noble Lord, hav-
ing one of the highett offices under the crown.
The behaviour of the Judge was ver- different,
who, when he was applied to to let .afide a verdiet
awarding damages to a man wbo had been tor-
tured, !Aid he would not have dept quiet in his
bed if he had not affirmed it.' This motion of his
Honourable Friend would fuperfede that of Mile!'
he had yetterday given notice.
The ATTORNEY GENERAL contended that the
amendment was nugatory, as the Bill did not att.
thorife the infliEtion of pitnithment before cons fic-
tion, nor could any punishment be inflieted in vir-
tue of it even then that was an alien to the civil
and military law of the country.
Mr. GREY inferred the neceffity of the amend-
ment from that confeffion, that punishment un-
known to the municipal law might .be infliacd in
virtue of the Bill as it then flood. The very per.
fons who had introduced the Bill mull, therefore,
on their own principles, now agree to the motion
of his Hon. Ft tend. They had never laid the mt.-
nicipal law was infufficient ; but that it could not
be adminiflered from juries refuting to do their
duty. He then adverted to the conduit of Rober-
fpicrre, when lie WAS accufed of having been con-
cerned in the rnafEscres of September. To luflify
his cruelties he made ufe exactly of the fame argu-
ments with the Gentlemen on the other fide of the
Houle, in vindicating the conduCt cf their Irifh
Friends. They appearc.l not lefs plaufible in his
mouth, and they made an equal impreftion : but
whin was the confeqttence ?
Mr. C. YORK (Secretary at War), Mr. MARTIN
and General Lorrus, oppofed the amendment,
after' which the Committee divided.—For the
amendment B.—Againft it 84.—Majority 76.