Star.
London, England, 1812-04-29 00:00:00

- MR. MADISON'S MESSAGE.

Lord HOLLAND rose to put a question to the
Noble Secretary of State, respecting a rumour which
had made a considerable impression in America.—
There had been a Message, accompanied by certain
documents, as proofs, communicated to Congress by
the President of the United States, complaining of a
conspiracy, under the sanction and knowledge of the
Government of this country, and of a distinguished
Officer in our part of America, to effect a disunion
between the Eastern and Western parts of the United
States. Now his question was, whether this Message
of the .President of the United States had come offi-
cially to the knowledge of the Noble Secretary of
State,. and whether the allegations contained in it
were true, as affecting the credit of the Government
of this country, and that distinguished Officer?
The Farl of LIVERPOOL replied, that these do-
cuments had not come to his knowledge in aft official
way. He felt no &fficuity in stating (without any
reservation whatever), for himself and others con-
nected in the Government' with him, that there never
had been. any :4tempt, design, or wish, en the part
of this Government, to effect any separation or dis-
union la:mei:li any parts of the United States—or to
foment any dissatisfaction towards the Government
of that country ; nor had any individual been em-
ployed by the Government on such service. He
wished also to state, that any employment of such
individual vas unknown to the Giivernment, and that
be was employed by that respectable Officer merely
to-procure such inforMation as might be useful for the
interests of this country in that quarter, and for the
good of Vs' Majesty's service. But, on the part of
that respectable Officer and himself, he disclaimed
any intention of fomenting any divisions in the Go-
vernment of the finited States.._ _ _

Lord HOLLAND---" As I now understand the 1
individual was not employed by his Majesty's Go.
vernment, am I to understand that the Noble Lord
was not aware of his'being,emPloyed by Sir James
Craig ?"
The gall of LIVERPOOL— 4, I mean to state
that Government never ordered Captain Henry to be
employed. Government never knew the fact of his
lia%;ing been employed till he returned to Quebec;
and, with respect to his being employed by Sir James
Craig, I firmly believe it was lor information only."
Lord HOLLAND said, it appeared to him to be
impossible that this Government had received no- do-
tumegts respecting the employing of Captain Henry
in 7a.hatevir set vire he had been put by Sir J. Craig;
and it there were such documents,be busted the liobie
Secretary of State would see the very extreme pro-
prietr,k, nay, the absolute necessity, of laying such
papers heiore the house.--Here the Matter dropped.
GOLD LOIN DIIL. • • •
• • Upon the Order of the day for entering on the se-
coed wading i?fthe Gold .Coin Bill,
' • Lord' BATHURST rose to hate, tbai frois•stlit
.Ttkd passed in another HUttse upon the subject he did
not 'spec; that it would undergo much debate there.
iiis.l.rordship entered into a wide and eircuisstantiat
*wiry into the question in bearings
all its beangs and rela-
tions, recurring to the various periods of history' in
cif ich ;hp cpnr4e said rate of exchange wain
ted.with the state of the current coin, and the cum.
• Inerclat credit of the nation. •
Lord 4ING maintained, that the present .Lai,
reality, Constituted Bank-paper a legal tender fur the
-4; drrein coin of the realm. Tice Bill of last year pro.
(Acted paymenta iii paper out of Court, and the
uniendment:of this year protected payments of paper
Court. This his Lordship regarded as a new tent
in finance, sand a triumph of Bank-paper over ancient
bcindsilid engagements. The same language had
•distinguisheti the introduction of the Bill in this Ses-
.siou as what bad accompanied it in the Session pre-
ceding, 'lamely, that unless a permanency was be.
- • atosvold upon the Bank-paper, we should not be able
to napp..tge, a successful war in the Peninsula.
•, By
- thp enactment•of such. a measure we were exhaust-.

trig ourselves and in-:nerving the military against the
;day whcn the barle might more tiosely approach us.
-.The sale asiurauces had been held out on the issu-
:,ing ot. tem French; astignats, and th,z same reasons
. rveaLfor adopting the•measure ; but we refused to
fot ranked the disastrous consequences which at..
'...tended the mighty policy. • We might indeed talk
of restraining within moderate kounds the isiues of
4,paper ; but while we conversed concerning the
we issued a quantity of Exchequer Bills, so
augment• the issue of Bank.notes, by having
Bids disbursed at the Bank: On the whole he
trepan to declare, that by all appearance the

Bill had originated in fraud and folly—folly on the
part of the Government, in attempting to enrich the
Bank by a fraudulent measure.
Earl STANHOPE declared the swaddling clothes
of the infant (the Bill) were very fine, but they were
not of his putting on. The nursery maids merited
all the praise—(z/ laugh.) His habitation was sur-
rounded by schemers, and numerous were the inven-
tions which they had laid before him. One had disco-
vered the perpetual movement, another lad dreamt of
the longitude, and the third, equally sagacious, had
found out the philosopher's stone ; but not one of
them all equalled in rarity of invention the State al-
chymist (Lord King) who had determined to make
gold appear, vl/4 here, he said, no gold was to be found.
(it laugh.) When Bonaparte heard of the glorious
measure he, illuminated Paris-- (al laugh.) The Dloble
Lord had maintained that the price of corn was af-
fected by the metallic currency, an opinion which
recalled to his mind a notable remark on the comet
which appeared during the last year. Two gentle
men of intelligence amongst incomprehensible things,
standing one evening at Margate, one declared to
the other, that the tail of the comet which he then
saw streaming so brilliantly along the sky had been
shuffled to and fro aye, and by an easterly wind
too," replied his friend. So he would maintain, that
as the comet's tail had been waved about by an eas-
terly wind, so had the price of corn been influenced
by the metallic currency.
Lord DARNLEY supported the Bill.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE opposed the Bill,
inasmuch as it tended to enrich 600 individuals con-
cerned with the Bank, to the manifest injury of the
nation.
The Earl of WESTMORLAND supported the
measure at considerable length.
Lord GRENVILLE said, that the occurrences
of every hour displayed the British nation persisting
in a course which had overwhelmed other nations
with misery. We were called upon to concede a
measure which would lay the nation prostrate at the
feet of the Bank Directors, without any restrictions
put upon them but- what their own discretion die-
•tated. The Noble Lord (Grenville) in conclusion
contended, on the necessity of making the Bank in-
dependent of the Government, and the Government
independent of the Bank.
Lord LIVERPOOL replied to Lord Grenville at
considerable length. The opposition of that Noble
Lord applied rather to the'sneasure of 1797 than to
the Bill before the Home. If lie were of opinion,
that the Bank ought to resume its cash payments,
still he should say, the Bill before them was neces-
sary for the justice and security of the Public. As
to what had been said about two prices—about a
gold price and a paper price, he maintained, that
there were not, generally speaking, any such thing
in existence.—(Loud cries of hear, hear, from Lord:
Grenville and Lauderdale).
Lord LAUDERDALE was surprised at what
had fallen from Lord Liverpool, and to strew him
that there were two prices, he should, on Friday next,
move for a Committee to inquire into the Bank con-
nexions with the Government, &c. &c.
After some further observations tram Lord LIVER-
POOL and Lord LAUDERDALE, the Bill was read a se-
cond time, and ordered to be committed.

AMERICA.
Lord HOLLAND again adverted to Mr. Henry's
correspondence with Sir James Craig, and inquired
whether the Noble Lord (Liverpool) intended to lay
it officially before the House ? The correspondence
authorised Henry to produce certain papers to cer-
tain individuals, who might feel inclined to separate
the Eastern Country from the Western, under the
authority of this Government ; and it was of such
nature, that it involved the honour and character of
the country. If the Noble Secretary declined laying
before them the correspondence, he (Lord Holland)
should move for it on Friday next.
Lord LIVERPOOL felt satisfied, that when the
matter shall come obe known, a very different con-
struction would be put on it than had been given it
by the Noble Lord (Holland).
Lord HOLLAND expressed his resolution to per-
severe, since Lord Liverpool bad declined to answer
his inquiry.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed
of, when the House adjdurned at ONE o'clock.
ti

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. WESTERN presented a Petition from a number of Free-
holders of the county of Essex, praying a Reform in the Repre-
sentation of the People in Parliament. Ordered to lie on the
Table.

A Petition was also presented from the Woollen-Manufactvc
rers of the county of Somesset, against the Monopoly of the
East India Company.
Mt. DICKINSON, after a few preliminary observations, ob-
tained leave to bring in a Bill to amend the Act of the 12 Geo.
enabling Magistrates at Quarter Sessions to order repairs of
County fridges.
he Holt Forest, Woolmer Forest, and Parkhurst Forest Bills
sevenillywent through a Committee, to be repeatted to-morrow.
On the motion of Mr. ROSE, a Committee of the whole House
was fixed for to-morrow, to take into consideration the Duties
on Copper.
Mr. ii.OSE obtained leave to bring in a Bill for the more easy
Jl22B:fling of ships employed in the Southern Whale Fishery.
The Tobacco-pipe Clay Bill W tad a second time.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER gave notice that
to-pioirow he should move for the introduction of a Bill to re-
gulate, with a view to repress the issue of Local Tokens.
- Sir JOHN NEWPOR gave notice, that this day fortnight
he should bring under the cortudtration of the House the Kt-
pensibure of the Funds destined to improve the'lnland Naviga-
tion of Ireland.

On the motion of Mr. Rosa, Accounts were ordered to be laid
before the House of the real value of the Exports of the King-
dom, from January, Ixos, to January, 1811; also Accounts of the
Number and 'lonnage of Ships that had cleared inwards and out-
wards during the same period, w ..1 the number of men an
boys by which they were manned, ap-citying such ships as were
foreign.
Mr. LYTTLETON presented a Petition, signed. be observed,
by .1460 people, respe,ctable inhabitants of Kidderminster and its
vicinity. it set forth the difficulties under which the manufac-
turers of that part of the country laboured, and prayed that mea-
sures might be adopted for the attainment of an honourable peace,
fur laying open the commerce to India, and that the House would
adopt such.measurs_for relieving the commerce and manuf4c-
Wts of tbcacountry as they might deem expedient.

PETITIONS AGAINST VIE ORDERS IN COUNCIL.
Lord-STANLEY, in rising to advert to these Pe-
titions, and the subject with which they were so inti-
mately connected. .namely, the Orders in Council,
adverted to the origin of the Orders, and observed,
atilt they had or►gtnated in a measure adopted in
1806 by the French Government against the com-
merce of this country. These Orders were adopted
to counteract the ill effects which it was contended
those measures of the French would otherwise have
had on our commerce. That these were unnecessary

•
great quantities of got'als to America ; but he begged
Gentleman would consider the effect such a nreaserre
would have on our trade to the North. In lest year
our exports to the Noah amounted to kl 1500,000;
thisas as I CO,OOO ro: 're than in IS: ;an had tl'e
pleasure i.l stating, that during-she last eight weeks
we had been gaining upwards of AlOO,OOO a week
upon the cnacornitant. weeks of last year. Our trade
to America had Levi r ye: exceeded £12,000,000; and •
of late years, prior to the issuing of the Orders iN
Council, had been butt tfi,p(mooo, and last year but
£2,000,000 ; by rescinding the Orders in
Council, we should tisk our trade in the North hr die
chance of gaining an addition of £!,000,0(0; mid
liable to the objection of the Americans to our system
of blockade. But while we were looking to our situ!.
Lion, let us look to America : the American
Ez-
ports had generally amounted to 45,000,0(10 of do.
'2O lays, of which upwards of ,000,000 usually came
to this country ; about 2,300,000 to France ; and
the rest to Spain and Portugal. While the Ame.
rican shipping was every year declining, the
shipping had considerably encreased, since ISOts, be.
lore the Orders in Council were issued. The amount
now was 12,711, and foreign ships had considerably
decreased. No foreign ship d to ga %viten:
a British ship could go. This principle \VAS most
strictly adhered to in regard to the gran:ing of Li-
cences. If the Orders in Council were repealed, the
West India interest would feel the conseluences most
severely ; for the Americans would immediately be-
, come the carriers of •foreign Colonial produce to
France. In the Island of Cuba and in th?. Brazils
there were vast quantities of sugar, which the Ante-
ricsns would immediately take to France, if the
trade were opened to them by the rescinding of the
Orders in Council. He even believed that the cot-
ton trade would suffer by such a measure. He wouid
now come to the licensing system. Had not Licenses
been granted, no trade whatever could be carried ou
with tire enemy's ports. Since April last year, the
course of exchange had risen with Hamburgh ISt
Iper cent. and had risen proportionably with Amster.
dam and Paris. Under all the depression of trade
on the Continent, he could assure the House that a
very considerable trade was now can) ing on upon
the Continent, and he should most anxiously deplore
any measure for repealing the Orders is Council.—
He would now trespass on the indulgence of the
House upon a personal point. In a Petition now oa
the table, he was represented as holding sinecure
• offices, and as expressing sentiments that manifest:4
an insensibility to the distresses of the country.—
' He solemnly declared, that not an expressiOn fell
from him which could be construed into an offence.
He happened accidentally to be present when a depu.
tation 'from Biriningham waited on his Right Hon.
Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer), and be
went into the room as an intruder. He did then ray,
'that the state of the country might not admit of the
distresses being relieved. But to public man was
more misrepresented or ill-treated on this point than
himself. He could say, that no man had more in-
tercourse with the lower order of mechanics thin
himself. Nb man was ever more ready to open his
door to them—no mat; more inclined to 'give them
advice, or relieve their distresses ; and ne would
throw himself upon the House.—(llear, !oar,)—sad
,ask, %hither he was a man likely to treat with levity
people labouring under distresses ? To the Gentlemen
BirMingham he had thought it 'dm duty to state
his real opinion as to the Orders in:Council. The
first duty of any man was not to mislead people la•
! bouring under difficulties, and who should apply to
' him. He acted upon this principle at the late Oita.
view ; and he did endeavour to impress on the minds.
of the Gentlemen, that no one possible advantage
could arise from complying with the general call of
persons who laboured under an ei ror on that subject.
He concluded with stating, that he had no object=
to the motion.
Sir C. MORDAUNT made some statements go.
lathe to the distresses in Staffordshire.
Mr. DUGDALE said, be had beets informed that
the Right Honourable Gentleman did treat the Bir.
dreysmpeenct.;
bmui
tn gt
thiaatmb De ep
didu tamt iaokne witeh gc
or ema
pt
acivility ted
a

might hate been determined fit m the fate which
awaited similar measures adopted by the French.in
1736. These mea:•ures were then ineffectual, and
would they not have been ovally so now ? Had the
French any inure powerful naval force now to enforce
their Decrees than they had at that time? Or were
We lees able now than at that period to have protected
our commerce ? Indeed, the French Orders, previous
to the passing of our Orders in Connell, had remains d
harmless—but so soon ;as our Orders we►e passed.,
the effect of them on our commerce was visible. Fo-
reign States immediately became disgusted with our
conduct, and excluded us from their ports. The ge-
neral distress and pressure which was felt by th►is
country, he thought no one would deny—(Hear,
hear,)—and, connected as he was with one of the
counties which had suffered most materially under
this pressure, he could not forbear calling the atten-
tion of the House to the Petitions which had been
presented from that county (Warwickshire.) Some
persons had supposed, that the abolition of sinecure
places would give relief to the country under its dis-
tress; he feared, for one, little good would result to
the public from that object being carried into effect.
Others thought much relief might be derived from
the non-renewal of the East-India Company's
Charier. That, perhaps, might do much to alle-
viate the distresses of the country ; but even should
such a measure be, determined on, it could not take
place for two years ; and the state of this devoted
country was such, as would not admit of such
delay. The Noble Lcrd then adverted to the ex-
pression which had been imputed to Mr. Rose.—
He did not believe, that if the expression had been
used by the Right Honourable Gentleman, it was
used with any feeling of insensibilisy towards the dis.
tresses of the people; but certainly the Right Hon.
Gentleman should have been a little more guarded
in his expressions. The Declaration lately published
in this country, however, did prove that this country
and France were in the situation described by the
Right Honourable Gentleman, and that it was now
a question of which could longest exist under the.
pressure of that distress with which they were bur-
thened ? With respect to the Orders in Council,
since the petitions had been presented, he had made
particular enquiries into the state of the counties
from whence they had come, and had generally
found the statemeu►ts of distress contaiaed in them
correct. The advanced price of provisions was such
as to render it impossible for the poor to obtain sus-
tenance. In the place which he represented, the prin-
cipal part of the food of the manufacturer was oat.
meal and potatoes, and in that place potatoes, which
were usually about 7s. for 2401b5. were now advanc-
ed in price to 17s. and the same quantity of oatmeal
which could formerly be purchased for 325. was now
46i. The general earnings of the manufacturer was
from 9s. to Ils. per week, and how was he with that
sum to provide for a wife and family of children?;—
The Noble Lord then entered into a review of the
state of Liverpool now, and compared it with what
it was in 1810, at which time the docks were full,
• and there were a greater number of ships waiting to
get into the docks than were now in them ; and more
than one-third of the manufacturers and labourern
were now unemployed. With respect to the distresses,
of other parts of the kingdom, he would not go into
them ; they might be found in the Petitions lying on
the table. Under these circumstances, he Ihiiught,
there wss but one line left for the House to pursue,
and at the conclusion of his speech he should move
for a Committee of the whole House, and that the
Petitions now lying on the table should be referred,
to the consideration of that Committee. Whatever
might be the decision of the House, he must submit
to it 1 but it was almost too much to expect that a
population nearly starving should be prepared to
submit to all the privations to which they were re-,
duced, without a probability of their termination,
He believed, whatever had been done by them had
arisen from their distress, and that there was much in
their case to pardon and to pity. The Noble Lord
concluded with moving, that the Petitions from
Birmingham, Liverpool, &c. against the Orders in
Council, should be referred to a Committee of the
whole House.

Mr. ROSE observed, the Noble Lord, in the corn- tioned.
mencement of his speech, had said the Berlin and Mr. BARING admitted the great attention and
Milan Decrees were no new measures ; that similar civility always shewn by the Right Hon. Gentleman
ones had been issued on former occasions, and that it to all parties who met him on the subject of trade.—
was a mere municipal regulation. He wished the But the compatisonin question was uotortunate, on
Noble Lord would attend to him, whilst he stated to account of she depression it must have caused in the
the House the origin and effects of these Decrees, country. With respect to the 'Oiders in Council,
and say then whether these were-municipal Decrees. there was no question at issue between this canal
The Right Hon. Gentleman then went at consider. and America on the subject of blockade; and to
able length into the nature of the French Decrees, and prove this, he quoted the correspondence between
the effect which, after the peace of Tilsit, had been Mr. Foster and Mr. Munroe. He admitted there
occasioned by them to our trade, particularly by the were many doubts as to the propriety of repealing the
Berlin Decree, which sent our ships and their cargoes' Orders in Council—(Hear, hcar4) The pest& n°7
back to this country. These proceedings called forth was, whether there was in America any ground far
the Order in Council of November 1807, by which hostility against us ? He was sure that the Americus
all ports in the North, from which we were excluded, had good ground to believe that the French Decreer
were declared in a state of blockade. Soon after this were repealed. A Declaration to that effect had not
the Milan Decree was passed, by which all vessels, only been contained in the Nomitesir, but bad beets
_
havingsßritith produce on board, or having touched communicated to the American Government by tie%
at a British port, were declared denationalized. The neral Turreau, the French Minister-
Right Hon. Gentleman then went into a history of circumstance, he contended that there was not a
the several other French Decrees and Orders in Coun- America that hottile mind which precluded an 1111/54/.
ended, Oat
cil, which had been issued by each Government, and ble arrangement with us—and he also cont
the
of the conduct of France towards America, -as con- there were no instances of that gross pattialityo4
Right
trasted with our conduct towards that country. By part of America towards France which the. i
But. from everp
the Milan Decree, all vessels 'which submitted to be Hon. Gentleman stated. He strongly
searched should be considered as denationalized. the avaricious system acted upon by this country, wit's
:12:
That Decree had not been. rescinded, and there ore respect to our attempts to exclude neutrals t"'„_,.,;
the American ships were still denationalized. With 1 carrying trade. -All the effects of the Orders in Cot:,
respect to
,the recent Declaration published in this cil were acne aw.ty by having certain ports m__l:
country, it declared that so soon as the Berlin -Continent open to neutrals ; for the Americans cool's
and Milan Decrees were -rescinded, our Orders in now supply France sith foreign colonial produce
Council should be repealed—if we were to give up 1 through those ports. As to the state of nail!
1c0nae7....
1 our Orders in Council, what would Ire the effect?! all that could be said about it was, that it wo "_,
Was it certain that America would then open her ; unfavourable now than twelve months ago' stud
ports to us ?On the contrary—had not America re. I supposed iosprovernent was occasioned chtefHlb,;.l°
peatedly declared that it "was not merely the Orders 'inability at this time to purchase corn on the'.." I
11,1 Council which we must give up, but we must re- ' nent. If we,couhl obtain corn, A large sum olnwr2,
linquish our system of blockade—that was, we must must have been sent out of the kingdom; awl'
give up our maritime rights; and if' we did do so, he of course would affect theexchangeu
was firmly. persuaded our. commerce would suffer I Lord CASTLEREAGH was readr2„yre ill
most materially. If the Orders in Council were re- . the proposed inquiry, merely to satisfy the
scinded, every port in the world would be open to at large on the question before the Howse.
-France, she, would get abundance of cotton, and begged this vote of his might not be . die
would in a few months be enabled to meet us in that affording Any concession, or as antieil'a.ungddisOi
branch of trade with thegreatest advantage. He was of the present question. The chief elle"
dads.
ready to allow that if the Orders in Council *ere re- ders in Oduntil was to retaliate a fre4.14111
pealeff, it would afford great relief to our own manu- committed' against our commerce by
_im- •
facture/61 and that they would immediately export who, by sucb.recaliation must Vaal' "Pm .'

•

• .130,
- meaw
4?:;--
.fib
• OVSC
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interests, while-onr commerce suffered nothing. it
was impossible for any man to say that the Berlin
and Milan Decrees were repealed, whatever the Arno
rican Government may have thought. He did not
think there was any hostile feeling on the part of the
American Government towards us; and if any such
feeling had existed, the recent conduct of France
'would do it away, and bring back the mind of that
country to a correct judgment on the question at
issue. This country never did hold out to America;
that the repeal of the Berlin and Milan Decrees would
satisfy our demand, for we could never recognize the
principle of free bottoms tonstituting free goods...
He was sure that America had no objection to die
plockade of 180(3, provided the same was maintained
by a naval force competent to enforce it. But he svát
confident, that in a short time, America would come
to aright and amicable understanding with us on all
the points of dispute. The fair way of looking at,
the question in dispute was this-- to see whether,l
as a measure of war, our retaliation ou the ene-
my did not do him infinitely more injury than
he did to us. It was evident that we suffered com-
paratively little, while his privations and losses were
enormeus. And should the clamours of America
restrain us in measures so necessary for our interest ?
No—the language of America, even if she should
resolve to go to war with us, ought not for a moment
to alter our conduct. And it was a gross error to
say, that the Orders in Council produced the distresses
of the country. Besides, it could be proved that f
commercial distresses did not exist in the manner that
was supposed. The House had on its table the
amount of the commerce of this country for the last
seven years, and from these accounts he could find
nothing so gloomy or so discouraging in our situa-
tion as Gentlemen opposite wished to make us believe.
The commerce of this country, notwithstanding the
estent of the war, had risen to a total of exports of
manufacteres in one year, exceeding the total of
the manufactures of France during the same period ;
that being estithated by their own Governmept
at fifty millions a year. The gross amount of our
exports were last year sixty-two millions ; the year
before 66 ; and the year before that 49.—These facts
did not warrant such representation to the people as
that this was a ruined and falling system of trade.
It was no very pregnant evidence of the Orders in
Council being destructive of our Commerce, that
during the period of their duration it should amount
to four or five millions a year more than before their
establishment. No fair inference could be drawn
against these Orders'in Council from that diseased i
elfort which raised the exports of this country in one
year more than 16 millions ; but which, by glutting
the markets of South America, recoiled upon our-
selves. With regard to A merica, she should open
her ports to us for her own sake • but if she would
not, we had the satisfaction to find that the shutting
them would not have so great an effect on cur trade
as Gentlemen opposite would have the House and
the country believe. France had threatened to ex-
clude our commerce from all parts of the Continent,
but while she did so, she took herself a considerable
quantity of our goods, there was now opening a
pretty large trade between this country and France.
Even during the operation of the Decrees, we had
sent in a year 16 millions of goods into different parts
of the Continent. Now he was quite at a loss to
know what Gentlemen could mean by this ruined
country. He could not agree to the giving up of '
any of our maritime rights, on which our safety de-
pended ; yet he was 'glad that die House was about
to enquire on this subject. But he disclaimed any
intention of going into the Committee to abandon
that system which had made this country what it is.
Mr. BROUGHAM wislitod to warn the House
and the country from the gross delusion of going int:,
a Committee on this subject with minds made up,
that while Gentlemen opposite send the Orders in
Council to trial, that system must not be abandoned
until events shail have taken place on the continent,
over which we can have no controul. He would pro-
pose that the Hi use should go into the Committee,
and sit from day to day, in order to get the more
speedily through this important subject.
Mr. ROSE, in explanation, said, that he had never
meant to express a blind determination to vote one
away, whatever evidence might be produced on
the other side.
_ _

Mr. STEPHEN supposed, that as the Gentlemen 1
on the other side attacked the Orders in Council not
only on the ground of the pressure on the manufac-
turers, but on the original illegality of it, they would
be prep. red to produce not only evidence of the pres-
sure, but all the voluminous writers that had ever
published on the law of nations to shew the ille. I
yak), that was complained of. The Petition froM
Birmingham stated the Orders in Council to be
illegal in their origin : he therefore wished to know
whether this allegation *as to be supported in the
Committee. He would allow, that if the exercise of
the clearest tight was f. and detrimental to us, it
might be prudent to abstain from the exercise. It
might sometimes be prudent to acquiesce in a wrong ;
but the nature of
.right and wrong were not to be
changed by considerations Merely prudential. The
only good effect which he saw likely to proceed from,
the Committee was,--that it might be the means of
doing away something of that impression which the
possest misrepresentation had produced. HoweVer
he respected the manufacturers of this country, he
did not think that they were as capable of forming a
comprehensive view of the policy of this system as
the Members of that House, who had so ofteit
de-
bated it, or the Ministers whose official duty it was to
have the most accurate and detailed information on
these subjects. However, he would not oppose the
Committee.
Lord STANLEY rose, principally to put a ques-
lift to his Majesty's Ministers, whether, in case the
inquiry should shew that the Orders in Council were
one of the principle causes of the pressure, Ministers
would in that case rescind them, or whether they
would continue to act on the declaration published a
few days ago ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, that he could by no means bi.td himself to such
an agreement previous to the discussion. Even if it
should appear that a great part of the temporary pres.
sure for this single year was to be attributed to the
. Orders in Council ; yet, if it, were found that there
Were other concurrent causes, and that the- pressure
was
would merely temporary, he could not say that he
pledge himself to abandon the system. The
question would be open to the House, on the discus-

- ,

•
sion, after the inquiry, and theywould doubtless weigh
the subject well in all its bearings.
Mr. TIERNEY said, that if the Right Honour-
able Gentleman could not give the Noble Lord a
direct answer how he intended to act, he could inform
him. It was but yesterday that the House under-
stood him, that he would not agree to a Committee,
and now he does agree. The reason probably was,
that many of his friends had hinted tp him that they
could not vote for him if he resisted the Committee.
Now, if after the enquiry similar hints should be
riven him, and he found that disaffection was spread-
ing in his ranks, he would be just as ready to give
up the Orders in Council, as he was to change his
determination of yesterday.
On the motion of Mr. BROUGHAM, a number
' of manufacturers, &c. were ordered to attend the
Committee, for the purpose of being examined.
MR. MADISON'S MESSAGE.
Mr. NV H ETB READ took that opportunity of put-
ting a question to the Noble Lord opposite, respecting
certain allegations contained in the Message of the
President of the United States to Congress, wherein
he states, that attempts had been made to separate
certain parts of the United States frontthe others, by
an agent employed by Sir J. Craig, under the autho-
rity of this Government. The Honourable Gentle-
man here read a part of a letter, purporting to be
from Sir J. Craig to a Mr. Henry, directing him to
sound how far the people of Massachusett's were dis-
posed to break with their Government, and how far
they were disposed to receive military assistance from
this country. He wished to know if those charges
were true ?

Lord CASTLEREAGH begged leavetodisclaim
most peremptorily, on the part of the British Govern-
ment, any attempts to dismember the United States.
It was certainly consistent with fact, that an agent,
named Henry, had been dispatched by Sir J. Craig,
into the United States, without the knowledge of this
Government. The first account which they received
of him was, that he was employed by that General
to procure information relative to the military cha-
racter and resources of the Eastern Provinces ; but the
Go ~critment at the same time learnt, that he had been
recalled by Sir J. Craig, on the menaces of hostilities
being withdrawn by Americ3.
Mr. WHITBREAD read a paragraph from one
of the letters said to have been written by Sir J. Craig
to this man, requesting the earliest information how
far the inhabitants of the Massachusets were dispo-
sed towards a disunion from the Government of the
United .States.

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, the Government
at home concluded the transaction was ended, when
they first heard of it; and there could be no greater
proof that it was merely defensive inf:)rmation that was
expected from this agent, than his being withdrawn
by that distinguished Officer who had employed him,
on the appearances of hostilities ceasing.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, the answer was not
quite satisfactory, and wished to know if there was
any objection to laying the papers before the House?
To this no answer war. given.
Mr. PONSONBY read an extract of a letter,
signed H. V. Ryland, and dated January 9, }BO9,
stating, that the Governor (Sir J. Craig) would fur-
nish him (Henry) with a cypher, by which he could
communicate his information respecting the temper,
Stc. of the American people ; and the Right Hun.
Gentleman asked if that was among the documents
which had come to Government?
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, that in looking into
the enclosure no such letter appeared.—Adjourned.