Star.
London, England, 1825-02-11 00:00:00

Mr

. ,
when a trench Beet was in the bailael...the Irish . .
ap-
plied for.asststance, %Orel) was refused. At the same
time, however, relief from certain disabilities was
granted, and they evinced their gratitude by a vote of
`20,000 men for the navy, which wen—if anything
could add to the display of the feeling s:lii‘h pet vadesi
the country—were raised, not by impressment, but as
volunteers. The Honoto able Gentleman forgot to state
what becaMe of those who acquired the independence
of Leland in 1782. and what fi,llmied? Why will Mi-
nisters not profit by expesience, and make use of fats.
eltage of dignity and viper ? In the year 1775, the
Repeal of the Stamp Act took place, and no sooner
was that done, than peace and order ensued in the country which
laid called fur it. The bide people did not differ fr others, and
oaothl, under similar circumstances, take similar measures; ballet
jt, ice le done them—let the cause of complaint be taken away,
em they would be disarmed. They should Ise aware of the Teapots.,
sibility they were under to their country and to posterity, of the
safety of the empire at large, and ofiterauns in that House, if they I
suffered this measure to pass—(llear, hear).
Mr. Secretary PEEL. thought tbete were a few
plain con idsrations connected with this question which
had been rather overlooked, but ;0 which he shiiuld'
deem it necessary to call the attention of the House.—
Ile should fist notice an argument used by an lion.
Member, to which considerable force seemed to have
been attached. That Hon. Member had :tante. hedged.
that be should not vindicate the acts of the Catholic.
Association, but still he I.a I contended that the Go-
vernment bad no tight to into; lee to put it down ; that,
in fact, their hands were tied up, fvr that the Catholics
having grievances to co mplain of, the Government
was bound to tolerate t :e Association, as the organ
through which those grievances were expressed. If
that doctrine were true, there was an end at once of any necessity
for their deliberations. It the subjects of this or any other country,
when Imitating under any grievance, might resort to measures
which were deemed illegal. it would, he considered, he absolutely
necessary to put down those measures, and Parliament would
not ouly be justified. but absolutely required, to put them down.
.11e claimed the right of Parliament to act as it should think fit,
W it should deem the Catholic Association, or any other of the
same sort, at variance with the principles of the Constitution. Ile
should consider this Association in two ways-a 4 a political body ;
and as a body interfering with the administration of public justice.
Ile should first consider it as a body Mu-doing with the ado • *s-
tratibn of public justice, and should cite the authorities of emi-
nent meta to whose opinions be should always pay respect, and
whose sentiments, though expressed on another subject, applied
with peculiar force to the ptewnt ease. Ile should first cite their
opinions as referring to Associations in the character of Societies
for the prosecution of offenders. These Societies had lately been
very much before the public, and they bad been the subject of
considerable discussion in that House. To one especially he should
refer. It was denominated by its own sapporters, the Constitu-
tional Association; but it was termed by the advocates of decency
and pock:sees:rad moderation, both in act and language, on the
other side of the Ilouse—the. Bridge-street Gaul; ! (a laugh.)—
It would be no answer to him to say, that this Society had not
been suppressed by the Government. Such an argument was at no
time conclusive, but in the present instance, if it should be used, it
would be peculiarly inapplicable. At least it would not have the
smallest atplication to him. Ile was no member of the Society—
he had never lent the authority of his office to the Society; but
though he had done none of these things, yet, he must say, that he
thought there was a marked distinction between the Constitutional
and the Catholic Associations; and that every argument which had
beet: considered applicable to the Constitutional Association would
apply with tenfold force teethe Catholic Association. Following the
example of the Hon. Gentleman, who had now resumed his seat,
and wishing to embellish Ids speech by the eloquent opinions of
greater men than himself—by the sentiments of greater authorities,
to whom he Amid refer, he should introduce not merely general
observations,but principles applicable to all times and he should laveit to the House to say, whether they did not peculiarly apply to this?
That Honourable Member bad said, wilco speaking of the Con-
stitutional Association, that "indiviurals, when acting collectively,
Would act in a manner of which, in their private capacity, they would
be utterly ashamed; he did to& pretend to know much of the law,
but he thought such Associations were against the law, and were,
in fact, decidedly in oppusition to the Act of MaiiNhtunce, which
bad been passed to prevent prosecutions from being wantonly in-
stituted, tool that prosecutions instituted at the suit of the King, by
such a society, were clearly within the meaning of that statute.'
If that argument of the Honourable Gentleman's was founded in
fact, then he (Mr. Peel) must say, that it equally applied to the
present case. He should now resort to the legal authorities, and
the opinion he should first cite was that of an erudite civilian, who,
as 2 hiember of this House, had expressed his opinion on these
Associations. That Learned Geutlrman had commented with
great force on the difficulty which would be imposed upon per-
sons, if they were maliciously prosecuted, in afterwards obtain-
log compensation in damages for the injury they had sustained.—
Now, suppose the soldier, whose case had recently been mentioned,
should commence an action fur a malicious prosecution, would he
not lie under those difficulties to which that Learttro Civilian had
referred? He afterwards said, that " if such an Association vas
permitted, it would lead to nothing but distention and ill-win, in-
stead of producing that peace and quiet which the country bad a
right to look for." Would not any person who heard these re-
marks, without the observat- with which they bad been intro-
duced, suppose that they had been made its the course of the pre-
SAIL debate upon the Catholic Association? Certainly they would;
and, in fact, nothing could be clearer than their application to this
subject. These observations, it was, perhaps, unnecessary to say,
were made by the Learned Nleniber, Dr. Lualsington. He should
refer to the Common Laws, and take the opinion of au
Honourable Member who was sometimes called upon to fulfil
die duties of a Judge, and on whose judgment, therefore, the
greatest reliance might be placed; he alluded to the Common
Seri. alit. That Honourable Member had stated, that the great
objection to the. Constitutional Association, and to associations of
a similar kind was, that they could n it exist without being tho
seminary for spies and informers. Now who could hear that ob-
servation without thinking of the. use: of the soldier, whose Mho-
come had been declared, not by a Jury merely, hut by a Bench of
Laity-three Magistrates, composed of persons of all persuasion.;
and if he had been convicted, who could doubt that he would
Lave been the victim of spies and informers? Expetience skewed
the truth of that observation, which the Learned Gentleman had
made some time h..ck, and which recent occurences had most fully
cool:rood. The loareed Gentleman had gorse un to say, with
a prophetic spirit, which late events had tully justified, that
the existence of the Constitutional Association would produce
counter associations, than which nothing could be more injurious
to the administration of public justice. That sentimein, of
course, be would now repeat as a Judge, if caned upon to do
so, and coidlint in that high and public- character, what he had
stated in a less public and official capacity. The Learned G.title-
Man, after saying that two associations of this kiud might exist,
had declared that there would the be two parties rul a
rate with each other, and trying ...bids coud pour the
greatest number of friends into the Jury-box—(llear, hear.)
AU the atembers of the Catholic Association, and if any other
should arise, of the two, would be pouring their friends into the.
Jury-box, and, as the Learned Gentleman had afterwards said,
would thus be triumphing over the law bf the land. Such, the
Learned Gentleman foresaw would be the result, and such, in fact,
had actually happened. Ile shook! DOW apply the opinion of the
Ilunourable Gentleman; and be knew not what answer could be
&flashed to such arguments, for they appeared to him irresistible.
Perhaps he might be asked, if he acquiesced in the existence of the
Constitutional Association, how he could oppose the Catholic As.
tsociation? Ile 411SM.Ied that there wet e great distinctions in the
nature of the two--(1.0Oli cries of " hear !" from both sides of that
House.) Ile would show in what the distinct' consisted. He
had never been a Member of the Constitutional Association, nor
would he ever he a Alember of any such Society, unless he was
obliged by necessity to do so. Ile thought it improper thus to inter-
fere with the Constituted Authorities of the country. Ile thought
that the duties ed a public prosecutor should be exercised by nine
but a recognized Officer of the GOVetilinellt, but he never
could confound the Constitutional with the Catholic AS4tcation.—
The former, when about to bring a ni.n to trial, never vt (said have
published an ex-pat te statemeut—never, for instance, would they
Lave said, that a murder had been committed, and that a particu-
hr person would be tried for that murder, when it ultimately
the • m so accused was perfectly innocent. How-
that alone. the Hon. Member for Win-
whine opinions he shotikl refer to, thought
of wattles for the prosecution of felons,
ational Asowiation—for, in the latter, the
to be interested, as a matter of a politic .1
mixed up in the prosecutions which was de.,

stru ie to the equal administration of public justice; noir. he'
~..
r. Peel) thought the ante argument peculiarly applicable to the
tholic Association. The Honourable Gentleman bad said that
the Constitutional Society was evidently erected fur party put%
poses, and for these reasons it was daegerous; and, if anything
could increase the abhorrence which lie telt for it, the line of
&levee that bad been adopted, wuull produce that effect. He
(Mr. Peel) would, after altering the word abhorrence to alas m, beg
the House to understand, that the sentence to which he had just
alluded, ezactly expressed his opinion oa the rresent subject. Ile had
one more vpiniou, which he should think necessary to lay before the
House, and that was the opinion of one of the greatest ornaments
of the Court of King's Bench, whose sentiments upon such a Sub-
ject were entitled to the greatest weight. That Gentleman was
11r. Scarlet, who had even gone so far as to say, that such Socie-
ties were illegal, as they usurped the functions of the Attorney-Ge-
-neral, hi whom was entrusted the right of public prosecution. When
he had cited all these authorities, he thought he had gone a great way
in skewing that the House ought not to reject the consideration of
the measure. The discussion to which he alluded, had taken place
before the case was brought under the consideration of the Court of
King's Beielt. When it came there, what was the result? The
present Lord Mayor of Loudon was eicercising the office of Sheriff,
when a prosecution had been instituted by the Association against
Dolby : he had returned the panel, and the defendant objected to the
whole array, on the ground :hat the Sheriff, as being a member of
the Association, was not an indifferent person. The Sheriff an-
swered, that he had given up his connection with the society when
he Pattered on his office ; but the Court held, that as he had paid
his subscription, he was not an indifferent person, and the ob-
jection was therefore allowed. For the same reason, when
called as a witness in the course of the trial, his evidence was de-
clared inadmissible. The same principle would apply with
still greater force, if the person so connected with the prose-
cutine society was a Juror. With respect to the Catholic Asso-
ciation, it was said that all Catholics were subscribers.
If that were the cane, was it not rendering nugatory the benefits
which the legislature had couterred upon Ireland? was it not in-
capacitating
Catholics from serving on Juries, when the law per-
mitted them to exerci-e the duties of Jurymen? By the law they
were qualified, but by their own act they were disqualified—( Hear).
What would be the effect in the populous parts of the country,
where the Catholic Rent was regularly paid? Suppose an offence
was to be tried, involving in it something of a political feeling; the
panel must be composed of indiffirent persons, and if the Catholic
Association, instituted the prosecuti ~, who could say that the
subscribers of that Association were indifferent? The two in-
stances that had been adduced to-sight, were not all; and the
examples were only limited in number, because it was thought
they were quite sufficient to spew the principle contended for.—
If the remarks which the Hon. Baronet,who had smiled at what be
deemed the two insulated ins:ances, had made, were correct, then
ought Parliament totocrease the powers of the Catholic Association.
But they were neeatheet nor could they be supported by argument
or fact. Its order to :hew the manner in which this Association
was proceeding, he should refer to a Paper which he bad just re-
ceived Iron% Ireland. Let not Honourable Members say the paper
was no authority ; for it was one of the publications in which all the
proceedings of the Association were made known to the world. In
that paper it appeared that a Gentleman had reported to the Asso-
ciation, on the case of the prosecution against the Hon. and Rev.
Augustus Cavendish. Now, to this method of proceeding he felt
bound to object as a matter of principle. The Association appointed
a Committee to report on the case of a man who was afterwards to
be brought to trial at the suit of this Association. Could any man
defend suck a practice? The conclusion of the matter was, that a
motion bad been made to defray the eapenses of the prosecution
out of the funds of the Association, and to present a petition,
stating the circumstances, and submitting it for consideration,
whether the defendant ought not to be struck off the Commission
of the Peace? He thought, at least, that this ought to bate been
postponed until after the trial. But this was not all, fot at the
same moment they published the address to the Viceroy, and they
sent Mr. Cavendish to trial, not only with the disadvantage of being
prosecuted byihe Society, but with the petition and the memorial
published at the same time. Ile should nut have known of all these
circumstances,but fur a Nobleman, who objected most strongly to
the measure, and who had written him a letter on the subject.—
On that matter, he said, after the groundless and infamous perse-
cution had been oyerset by his endeavours, and after the innocence
of the defendant had been fully proved, and the report made to the
Chatiecilot, be understood. the prosecution had been opened again
in the Catholic Association, as a public gr!evance. Now this was
the expressed opinion of a Nobleman who had always been the Ca-
tholic advocate—who had always stood forward in support of the
Catholic Claims—and who both deserved and possessed the cash-
deuce of the Catholics—he alluded to the Earl of Donoughmom•—
( Hear, hear, hear). In the case of the soldier referred to by his
Honourable Friend, it was also found, after a due examination of
the subject, that he was innocent—(hear, hear, bear). He would
ask them, could they expect Magistrates to do their duty if they
were thus to be subject to the attacks of the Catholic Association?
But the Catholic Association, not content with abusing and vilifying,
began to direct a new prosecution. Unless the House stepped in
to the vindication of the Magistracy, and to enable them to do their
duty, it was for them to consider to what state would come the
administration of justice in this country? An Association, which
its its proceedings so vitiates the administration of justice, cannot be
tolerated—(Hear, bear, bear) without that admidistration
being destroyed. It was not necessary further to detain the
House with the effects which this body had in impeding the
administration of justice ' • he had shewn that their proceedings
incapacitated men from being Jurors; he bad also shewn that
the course pursued by the Association was contrary to the prin-
ciples of the Constitution, and pregnant with mischief. He would,
however, offer a few observations on the political consequences of
the Association, and he would confine himself to facts. Here is a
body which met once a year, under the pretence of preparing Pe.
titioas to the Legislature ; it mimics in its proceedings all the forms
of a Legislative Assembly ; has its Committees of Justice, Com-
mittees of Finance, and its regular hours of meeting. He did not
say these things were very .important of themselves, but, taken
altogether, they might enable the House to judge of the Associations
and it was to be judged of by the whole of its acts. It ape-
rates in the summer like the House of Commons, and meets in
the month of' October. And here he would advert to what
fell front the Honourable Baronet, as to finding Ireland trees.
quit when he visited it in the month of September. But the
Honourable Baronet forgot to observe, that then the Catholic
Association had not assembled. Ile returns in November, and
finds the whole country alarmed and full of confusion—the people
entertainingexaggerated notions of sonic danger. Here too the
Honourable Baronet forgot to notice that the Association had
men on the 16th of October, that it had been six weeks sitting,
and he found Ireland in the state he describes. This alarming
change he attributes solely to Bible Societies ; but never was so
great a calamity ascribed to so inadequate a cause. It reminded
hint of the fable of the Sick Beasts. There was.. a., great pes-
tilence among the beasts, and they met in council to ascertain
what was the reason they were visited with this calamity. The
lion and the tiger, and other beasts of prey, were assembled,'
and they. passing over all their own slaughters, ascribed all the evils
to the ass having eaten a thistle on a Sunday. The Haneurabk
Baronet was like beasts, and ascribed all the calamities of Ireland
to something that was like the poor ass browzing on a thistle on
the Sabbath; of course, the poor beast was offered up as a sacri-
fice. The Honourable Baronet was certainly much mistaken in as-
cribing all the evils he saw to the wanderings of Captain Gordon
and air. Noel. Does the Honourable Baronet forget, that at tl.e
very time the change he observed had taken place, the Catholic
Association had, within a few days, published that celebrated Ad-
dress, which had been so often already adverted to, and was not that
sufficient to account for the alarm and confusion he witnessed?—
These alarms may be exaggerated, but they are natural ; they are
founded on the outrageous conduct of the Association. This body
had proceeded to exhibit a regular organization, be need not say
with what intention, but as they were organized, it was quite
consistent with the principles of our Constitution to watch it
with jealousy. It had the same jealousy of all public
bodies- The Association kept agent* in all the different
parishes, and kept up a correspondence with them &R—
-iley declared they wished to raise between 40 and £50,000 per
year ; that X 5,000 of this was to go in controuling and enlighten-
ing, as they called it, the press in England; £5,000 of it
was to be employed in presenting petitions to the Legisla-
ture. lie hoped a rigorous account of this suns would be
given, as it was right the Catholics should know the whole ez-
penee of lending petitions to that House was the cost of the
parchment. Another part of this suits was for paying an agent
in England ; :WOOL a year was to be employed in sending Priests
to America, and 5,0001. a year to convert their haughty neigh
hours in England. If these were the objects of the Association,
it was a fit subject of jealousy. it was opposed to public liberty and
justice. We all admire the popular parts of our Constitution,but with
what checks is it hedged round. That I louse held its right to freedom
of speech from theCrown,but the Crown had no such power over the
Association. It was free from all controul. It' the llouae of Conunons
wishes to prosecute an individual, it proceeds by addressing the
, Crown, and requesting it to order the Attorney-General to prose-
• cute the individual. The Home dots nut take this power into its
own hands; but the Association appeals not to the Crown—it pro-
arcutes on its own respoesibiiity, and by its own power. What could

'the people of Ireland do, undo such eircunistames, but %taiga!'
counter Associations? If the public are not tobe protected against
this Association, they will associate to oppose it, and nothing
can be expected but confusion, violence, and danger. For these
Parliament must apply the remedy '
; and he had too good an idea of
his Roman Catholic know-subjects, to think that they would place
themselves on account of it in opposition and defiance to the Govern-
ment; but be that as it might, he considered that sufficient bad been
shewn to justify the Government in applying the remedy which his
Right lion. Friend bad pointed out to it. He hoped, therefore, that
Parliament would do its duty ; and if it did, those who resisted its
decrees must he responsible for their opposition to it. The Right
Honourable Gentleman then sat down, by declaring his intention to
vote for leave to bring in the 13111, amid loud and general cheering.
Sir H. PA It N F.I. L explained.
Mr. DENMAN rose amidst cries of " Adjourn
lie was only anxious to convince the House that the conduct of the
Constitutional Association was distinct from that of the Catholic
Association. Did the Constitutional Society meet to redress their
own wrongs? They thought proper to introduce a series of jobs
which the Attorney-General ought to have done. The Catholic
Association subscribed theiranoney for mutual defence. The Ca-
tholics did not prosecute for political offences—(Hear, hear). They
had prosecuted in one instance, for a libel on the College of May-
noeth, which was a vindication of their own body. The Consti-
tutional Association did not prosecute in any but political cases.
The effect of this Bilhavould be to drive the parties into secret ca-
bals. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said not otie of the sub-
scribers could sit as a Juror in cases of prosecution by the Catholic
Association. Right, it was so; but who could find out whether
the parties were subscribers? The feelings of a Catholic would
never lead to any such disqualifications. The Constitutional Asso-
ciation had been looking out for every miserable libel, while they
suffered the vilest calumnies in one journal to escape notice. They
had it from the highest authority of the law, teat it was not illegal
to form an association for the purpose of preventing a violation of
the law. There was a Society to prosecute all persons opposing to-
kration. The Methodists, as a body, had formed an Association,
and subscribed funds to protect themselves. Mr. Denman then
defended the acts of the Catholic A,ssociation. Destroy the effect
by removing the cause of their dissatisfaction. Give them eman-
cipation. Put all upon the same footing, and there would no longer
be any pretence for this Association. He denied that the people of
England were opposed to the Catholic claims. The English Ca-
tholics, by their forbearance, had gained just nothing. If that
House were as tree to itself on the Catholic Question as they were
on the hlarrlage Act, they would find that the Noble Person al-
luded to would yield as he did on that occasion. He then alluded
to the recognition of South America, which he thought a measure
of compromise in the Cabinet. Was it then that the Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Canning) said, give me but the recogni-
tion of South America, and I will consent to the two Bill,
Mr. Secretary CANNING—No, no!—(Acres the table, and
with great emphasis).
Mr. DEN MA N concluded by giving his direct negative to the
motion before the House.
Mr. Secretary PEEL then, at a quarter past two o'clock, rose
and proposed an adjournment of the debate till to-morrow, which
was carried without a division.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at HALT-:AST Two o'Csourr.

T 1114.. EVENING STAR

LONDON.

FRIDAY, FEBRUARY 11, 1825.
THE FUNDS.

STOCK EXCHANGE, TWELVE O'CLOCK:
Consols opened at 93# with little doing.
FOREIGN FUNDS.

In the Foreign Market all remains steady, and the c►ief doing
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