Star.
London, England, 1822-04-23 00:00:00

oitinssimy
the LymeisOK Priiests
_ .aat there .41 in "attY wart
fleeted with the ptaiticallelertise otifterhin
any form' that wit 'Skit 'the' sabject';‘Orebi!iplalfite—
The change which had been experienced .111 Ireland
as in England, since the termination of the war, had
produced distress in various parts; ind dioadiction
once roused, it baroeed itself ready there s here,
to lay bold ofanyllipic of complaiiit 'to influence the
minds of any particular class; and taxes, tithes,lmil
rent were indiscriminately seized on for that pas%
pose. Having disposed of the two important branches'
of the question, it only remained for him to 'allude to
what had been she conduct of the Goiernment
land;'and to its intentions for the future. When the'
Government arrived in Ireland, the Period 'Was not
one of the most auspicious. The disturbances and
tumults which then prevailed were Each as had not
been known for a considerable time past, and such as
ultimately broke nut into- open insurrection against
the laws and Government of the 'country. It there-
fore became the paramount duty of the administrators
of that government to turn then. first attention to the
suppression of those dangerous outrages which me-
naced the country with ruin. It Was true that at
present those outrages had been in some parts sub-
dued; but the House would deceive themselves if,
because they did not now prevail to the same extent
in the counties of Cork and Limerick as before, they
concluded that the evils had been entirely removed.
Partial tranquillity, he was happy to know, had been
brought about ; and if they meant to make it general
and universal, they must pursue the course which had
already been attended with this partial benefit.—
The measures which Parliament thought it wise to
adopt, had been attended with the result of driving
the disaffected 'and the turbulent to more distant
parts of the country, where their scenes of atrocity
were repeated, not certainly to the extent to which
they were committed in Limerick, but to such an ex-
tent as would demand the continuance of those mea-
sures until they were exterminated altogether. He
could not better deicribe the state of the South of
Ireland, than by stating that there was no county in
which the Police was sufficient to protect the peace-
able; and that in five counties the Insurrection Act
, was enforced. It was only yesterday that he had re-
ceived letters informing him of the perpetration of
two murders (in the county of Kilkenny), which cor.
respond precisely with the character of those hor-
rible atrocities which had occurred in other parts of
the country. One case was that of a servant serving
a particular fanner, who had incurred the displeasure
of the wretched and deluded people. He had been
served with a notice not to continue in the service of
his master, but the unfortunate man was unshaken
in his determination, and the next morning he was
shot in open day by persons who had been lying in
wait for him. He could sincerely assure the House,
that however much the attention of the Government
had been occupied by an incessant anxiety to provide
for the safety of the well-disposed, and to answer the
calls of the resident Gentry, whose property and lives
were in immediate danger, yet, nevertheless, they had
not neglected the consideration of the topics alluded
to by the Right Honourable Baronet, and of others
not less important to the interests of the country.—
The Noble Lord, at the head of the Irish Government,
had applied his great talents most anxiously and un-
ceasingly to the investigation of the causes of the un-
happy state of society in that country. Even before
he (Mr. Gonlburn) left the seat of Government, that
Noble Lord had proceeded to a considerable extent in
his inquiries and investigations. But when the Right
Hon. the Attorney-General and himself were absent
attending'to their duties in Parliament, the difficulties
of communication, and of acquiring information, were
increased, by the entire administration of the Govern-
ment falling upon that Noble Individual. If, under
such circumstances, the Government had not ventured
Ito propose, or were not prepared with, measures to
remedy such vast and deeply-rooted evils, it could
not reasonably be imputed-to a want of disposition
or desire. He assured the House, that the Govern-
ment had the whole of these topics under its most
attentive and anxious consideration ; and when they
should have had the requisite time for duly consider-
ing and making up their minds upon the measures
they should recommend, he should be prepared to
state them to the House, and, he trusted, to give not
unsatisfactory reasons for their necessity. He trusted
also that they would be such as to remove the cen-
sures which the Right Hon. Baronet would cast upon
the Government. At the present moment, he was
quite sure that it would be as impolitic as unjust to
send out a Government, under the peculiar cirtum-
stances of the times, and not to give it confidence
even for doing its most paramount duty, namely,
that of attending to the best interests of the People—
'(Chcers).—The Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
moving the previous question.
Mr. N. CALVERT was in favour of this motion.,
With a population of two millions, Scotland paid four
millions of Revenue; and Ireland, with a population
of seven millions, only paid the same; while she,
ought, from her superior population, to pay twelve.
Mr. T. S. RICE contended, that by the Address
moved by his Right Hon Friend, no censure was
thrown on the Irish Government. Extraordinary
powers had been entrusted, at the commencement of
the Session, to the Irish Government; and it was the
duty of the House to see how thesb powers had been
employed, and whether some measures of a different
character might not be mixed with them. Great
Britain and Ireland formed a melancholy contrast.—
In the one case, equitable laws had been equally and
impartially administered - but could that be said
in the case of the other, duripg the operation of the
laws against Popery ? Till 1782, Ireland had no
,Constitution; till it had been acquired by theeloquence
and perseverance of an individual (Mr. Grattan).
—He gave a Constitution to his country which
would have been its blessing, had not the Govern-
ment interfered and destroyed the materials of which
it was composed. The name of Grattan was only
second to that of Washington. •When he had estab-
lished the Constitution in 1789, the Government pet=
verted the principles and the 'integrity of the toicr
houses of Legislature. The honours of the one were
employed as the means of corrupting the other. The
Tenth Report of the Commissioners for Inquiring
into the State of the Feta of the Coats of Sustito in

by
leery thot the present
GovertlO4Cl disposed to follow in . the old
cnurte. When 'the time ofTgromiie fly Ireland
was to cotze,ifso. ey were always met
*kb the, raritkiel of What wad be done.. They
had
do
nwevasttab.yetitutlieln
were eletli/1 had that there *ai iioting,Secretary
datteratZethiiihfirted.g;* which soinething
!They' still heAid
the song of " Yining* r' am, 'and-sete"afrald," and
still the day of premise appeared to be far distant.
If they Caine foriiird with it in a tithe'orine.speritr,
they *retold Bid the people were happy, prosperOdS;
and contented, and wanted nothing more. If they
applied' nder circumstances of distress, and conse,
quentlisturbance, they were told that Was not a pro.
per tithe. for making concessions. Night and day
was the same to them ; their prayers were never to
be heard—
" Naos
Noe sit perpetua una dennienda. "
—But he would *caution Hon. Members against per-
severing in a.course which might bring the people
to despair. They were bound to sue ;very power
which GOD and man had given them, to.restore the
unhappy and afflicted people of Ireland to their right,
ful state of comfort and of order. But without that.
he would never be a party to it. If Hon: Gendemeu
opposite harbOured conciliation any Where but on their
lips, they could not refuse this motion. Every Irish
Member, on what side soever of the House he sat,
bad concurred in reprobating the system of tithes.
In Ireland no tithes were paid on pasture greUnds,
'so that, while the rich were exonerated, the load fell
with additional weight on the poor. He was able to
state that there were 8,000 schoolmasters in Ireland,
but in one of those schools the life of a noted robber
was used as a class book, who seemed to be the pro-
totype of the noted Captain Rock. No man could
be committed by acceding to the Address, which
had been brought forward in the spirit of confi-
dence alone—( Loud cheers).
Mr. C. GRANT stated that he should vote against
the motion, but not with the view of rejecting the
discussion of the subjects alluded to. The Irish Go-
vernment were as much pledged as the House could
be by assenting to .the Address. He knew that the
Noble Lord at the head of the Irish.Governrnent, and
his Right Hon. Friends the Secretary and the Attor-
ney-General for Ireland, had given the subject the
most serious consideration. In 1785 a serious dis-
turbance had broken out in Munster, which was
caused chiefly by the system of tithes. The County
of Limerick had been the scene of this hostility ; and
in one instance it was carried to such an extent, that
one Gentleman was persecuted because his ancestor
was supposed to have betrayed his country at the
battle of Attgrim. He believed that the agents of
certain estates in Ireland had stirred up the people by
inducing them to resist, perhaps, unlawful demands.
How was it that evils, •arising from local causes, so
suddenly spread throughout the country? He be-
lieved that the cause for this was the general abject
state of the peasant:), of Ireland. He believed that
eneral necessity prevailed in Ireland ; and though he
knew that had not been overlooked by the Govern-
ment, still it required more attention and investigation.
In the year 1807 Lord Clare declared that there was
not a more debased population than that of Munster.
This made them ripe for the contagion of plunder
and disaffection, when times of temporary' distress
came on. He took the liberty of suggesting to the
landholders of Ireland whether they should not en-
deavour to inspire their tenantry with that love of
comfort and independence which prevailed among the
peasant!), in England. Everything, in his.opinion,
was to be effected by the gentlemen of Ireland. Ile
knew that the landholders of Ireland were as willing
to lower their rents as those of England. Still, in
many cases, that had not been done by thenmelves,
but left to their agents, who, without their know-
ledge, ground down the poor. .He. praised the con-
duct of the Duke of Devonshire tbwards his Irish
tenantry. He pretested 'against any such opinion as
that the commutation of tithes was elillthg in ques-
tion the rights of the Church. He maintained that
it was not the duty of Protestant Clergymen, when
inducted into livings to begin by quarrelling with
their flocks. The mode in which tithes are col-
lected was most grievous to the people—(Hear).—
He did not blame Clergymen for employing e:ther
Farmers or Proctors, because no Clergyman could
look after such things; but he found fault with the
way in which that tithe system was conducted by
the Proctors and Tithe Farmers for the purpose of
keeping up a constant irritation among the peasantry.
There was a deep tense in Ireland that the laws were
not intended for their protection. Though this gave
them a distrust of the English Government, yet it
did not lead to any wish to revolutionize the country.
The many times the Catholic Claims had been re-
jected gave increase to this distrust. In the time of
Jamest Sir .I. Davis wrote his excellent work, in
which he states- that the Irish had no confidence in
' the English laws. In the disturbed state of England
almost the.whole property of Ireland three times
changed masters: Besides this, let them look at the,
long codeof Military laws that had been enacted by
this country against Ireland. • In England we had a
substantial body of Yeomanry ; a resident Gentry ; a
vigorous Magistracy ; and equal laws promptly and
efficaciously administered. Not so in Ireland. It bad
been said that there were eight thousand schoolmasters
in Ireland ; giving to these fifty scholars each, there
would be four hundred thousand under tuition ; but
their elementary books were such as to foster the ar-
dent and romantic love of danger, so natural to an
Irishman. He thought there were great faults among
some of both the Protestant and Catholic Clergy of
Deland. The Magistrates, he believed, were anxious to
do their duty ; but they had been deficient in activity.
—The Government of Ireland, up to 1782, was one
supported by extrinsic aid, and one never forced to
depend on the love and confidence of the People.—
Its only. reliance for support and aid was on English
fotce and power ; atid he %viand venture to say, that
without those there was not a period from the days
of Henrj VIII. up to that time; in which the Govern.
meat of Ireland could have existed for a single month,
But what remedy could the Government interpose in
the private regulations of a Gentry, or to 'relieve Ns
albject stag of the peopl4 of Ireland? He *Old,

pleasing; . it they could not expecato
:.tinspip.ea" Chi wcileithiel'ppleenrerres4,lnwhaliclhpawrt"ifoilf e4ltheithal,eartlhde.mlitoe
disliked.both the,Priaciple and practice offamir,i, Ire-
land ander. a complete gendarmerie. The pine:folio(
it was unconstitutional. No one could deny that. bet
in the county of Longford a Noble Lord had asked,
Aitaipt4 *vs!? and ,iroproved the ordinary police ;
so that boss a system of murder of policemen,
,they could now go and apprehend a criminal oat
of one of the most crowded fairs in the country:—
Ie kricw that the Lord Chancellor of Ireland had,
'before he (14r. Giant) left that country. obtained
lists of the most efficient persons to be Magistrates,
in all but two or three counties., In the system of
retigiouVaducation, there was a great defect, in as
Much as conformity 614 faiths was alone sought for;
buthis wish was, that allfunds for education should be
placed at the disposal of Government, for the educa-
tion of both Catholics and Protestants in their re-
spectiee.faiths...He was sorry the Right Hon. Baronet
had brought nothing specific before the House; but
he hoped the question would be soon agitated again.
He eulogised the conduct of the Catholic Clergy
during the late disturbances in Ireland, throughout
which they had acted with a zeal, a firmness, a•cou-
eige, and a loyalty, that deserved the poor retiirn of
the tribute of his praise. Unless they could lay
deep their, foundations in the harmony of all classes,
they could never hope to tranquillize Ireland.—
Let them not think this impossible, though it bad
never been done; wherever the experiment had been
fairly tried, be would venture to say that it had never
fiiled. Ile instanced the ,case of a parish in the
County of Limerick,where the Protestant Clergyman
kept no arms, and slept with his doors open. At the
altar of his worship did the Catholic Clergyman in-
troduce the Protestant Pastor to his flock. The latter
addressed the people for half an hour. He was lis-
tened to with breathless attention. He exhotted them
to loyalty and obedience to the laws ; and, as if by
acclamation, they one and all took the oath of alle-

giance to their King. This was the origin of their
mutual confidence ; and it was not temporary, for,
amidst scenes of blood and rapine, that parish bad
continued tranquil.
Mr. ELLIS (Master of Chancery in Ireland), said
that all- that had yet been advanced, depe►ided on
local information ; and he begged leave to deny that
the disturbances in Ireland al ose from temporary or
local causes merely. On the contrary, he challenged
the Government to contradict him, when he said that

_
tilt present disturbances originated in 1814., and
were quite distinct in their nature and character from
any former disturbance in Ireland. He cased riot

for any man's political opinion, but he would assert,
that these rebellions were confined to Catholics only ;
and that no distress of tithes or rents ever drove
the Protestants into a state of open rebellion. These
disturbers of the peace in Ireland were linked to-
gether by an oath, incompatible with the eszahlislted
Church ; and on account of which they could ex-
pect to receive no aid from .the Protestants.—
He begged to remind the House of a recent awful
occurrence near Killarney, as it appeared in the pub-
lication of a Catholic priest himself, who was en-
gaged in the affair. A man, who was the intended
object of attack from a numerous band of ruffians,
put himself under the prOtection of the priest, who
gave Inns up to one of the band, on his promising to
save the life of the unhappy Victim. The man was
murdered; and yet this priest positively refuses to
give up the name of the man to whose care he con-
signed the deceased, because by so doing he would,
he says, be guilty of a breach of religious confidence.
In the name of wonder, he would ask, what could
they possibly think of conduct like this ?—(A laugh).
He was sorry to find that so grave a subject could be
treated with levity. He was sure that if the Hon.
Gentlemen who thus indulged theinselves were
aware of all the sufferings occasioned by acts similar
to those he had mentioned, they would not think of
making them a subject of merriment(Coughing).—
The Hon. Gentlemen appeared to be impatient. If
could be satisfied that they might give their
votes upon this question without examining the facts,
they had only to call out Question! and he would
submit —(A laugh, and cries f Question !).—He per-
ceived the House were very impatient, and he would
therefore proceed to another topic. This was the time
to put down the present insurrection, and then they
might consider the best means of preventing its re-
currence. This must he done by militarY force. They
had taken their estimate at 18,000 men ; but if they
wished to tranquilize Ireland, they must double or
triple that number. He never would agree to parley
with rebels in arms. The forty shilling Freeholders
were, he thought, a principal cause of the disturb-
ances; indeed, the destruction of this system of free-
holds would, in his opinion, be the removal of one of
the material objections to Catholic Emancipation.—
The putting down of illicit distillation would be ano-
ther beneficial measure; and the giving of 'a moral
dnd religious education to all, would be productive of
much benefit. But whatever might be the cause of
, the distreis—whateier the proposed remedy, the in-
surrection should first be put down. He regretted
the symptoms of impatience which had been shewn
by some in the House, an indifference which he could
attribute only to an ignorance of the present state of
Ireland, or an indifference to its welfare.
Mr. PLUNKETT said it was not his intention to follow the

Hon. and Learned Member regularly through the attack be
had made on a considerable body of his countrymen. Ile (Mr.
1,41124 m a former occasion, opposed that lion. and,Learne d
Member's leaving his olEciL duties in Ireland to sit in that
House; yet, certainly he could not but now rejoice that his
opposition had been ineffectual, and that the House should, in
the speech of the lion. and Learned Member, have a specimen
of the tone which was observed towards the Catholics of Ire-
land by their Protestant brethren--(Cherrs.)—lt had been
matter of complaint that on former occatiins concession bad
not produced subsins:isou ; haat that House eiuld not now be ata
less to discover the reason, for they saw that concession had
been accompanied by the curse of bigots. The mildew of b'-
our had actually destroyed the effe,ct of Hoye! hooevolsoce.
—As for the statements of the lion. and Learned Nenthes,
though they might be In a few partial Instances literally true,
they were generally and substantially false. It• was only a
small part of the country which was disturbed;-and
.as the
distutbers were composed entirely of the lower eLsres, it
became. matter of rcproash that they. *re Catholic* VI
was toe,. but Pig excesses bad been visited Cathitlics
as well as upon Protestants. au sU the prof
pawns, instructions were given to inaLe

up!a

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,I.44,ll:l6lWimieloittNriiiiiii44: " 404. tildind; . , go
_, sippetitothsGforrftbeissolvitsfeibely
1 surly to *Be% ' 1ib4,440/11* ~to 4hah furnish '. •-s tfte erv= ,tell
tar attalltien, end by education. Ho would
Ihe bad alined; -iiiiilto'of 'tithes, bet aillteredifecdy 'to -eatuPtillt7 Vitilrelierit "V0046%-- tell them; bigh•rol,nded u they were, that it was silo._
I referred to the Mit ei .?And—others •e% ssopacy as- Member reed soma:Sidenca ,givan before the Cons-^bonourabli toformi, CIA, Pat of danger...fie would
el them. that. it !nit their duty,, and should. bra
. I sessments--atid others to the
,payrnentilir Priests' missioners by a Greatlinsau holding the office of Ac-
.ii dues iSo that there Was. aiiiting in 'B4 *waywqp. countent., At pas ircry to find.... 1 tweeted vrkli A. i...i.:....11.........1_.. ..r:•.:.Z.....,:i.,L2...!•‘.. n r•••••••11filaillaP. Lea ii 1 _11•.1 _ • • ret _ _ _
th•at'te resent Phui°ll milt fue•withost it thou could gam elfll/.0.

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111,11beAS Mud to the . tbmuselvite.so.4 * ll
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4 ° H
of~liri Willi emPlotecl hindicerrhy attention, itfrieduistina. Hs would
nis7 vairsdiaat.'"Vint9lll6l tell them, high•ndeded as they were, that it was dl o•
d sesnit.Oidence given before the com.lonimtable te.finake;Fbupost of danger...He wouyl
44-Vlas. . ..
. ,
oy a Gentleman holding the office of Ac• WI them. that 4 !rag their duty,, and should. be 'a •
limy to find that .the present Ssleasing ones far without it they.could not e: to
old har chose large rentals which would enable them to .
.
i
iint -11"tte IliPniedine of tporotnicie fbrw in
liii:land
.ioe-At with splendour in all Parts of the woild. ,Ile , .
~14t. new Apt, . They were always met disliked.beth theitieciple and praetice.of:pngisw Ice-
'draft of What wtitildbe;done done. They They land under. a complete gendarmerie. The princapleof
(Told. that there Wain young Secretary it was neconstitutionsl.. No one could deny that. bet
dud to do inelething; 'Which something lathe county of Longford a Noble Lord hAd asked, . 11 •
et'hien ICOOMplidied. ' They' still heard °b wiped *yap and „unproved the ordinary police ;
" Yining' ram, 'andlete"afrald," and so din 'Am a system of murder of policemen, .0i
of prOnnse appeal...ed. to be far distant+ .they could now • go and apprehend a criminal eat
t'foriterd with it in a tithe'ofitifisperitY, of ode of the most crowded fairs in the country.-- . ,
dilial the people were happy, prosperons:‘ tie kocw that die Lord Chancellor of Ireland had, i
. i!
ed, • and wanted nothing more. If they 'More
.he (Or. Grant) left that country. obtained
er circumstances of distress, and come, lists of the most efficient persons to be Magistrates, ,
hence. they were told that
grin nett at news. !.- -Is e___... . -I_ • w _ • ..

'd aP411745-stkeiTki
wanks* against • •i ' L
uo distinction in
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