Star.
London, England, 1823-05-01 00:00:00

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nion they wcnifil be 'tilled: -Had;siti'Mli4"t. tibili!. '
so, lit would have arted diktlrcitintr,iiryfetheSPfos“
of the_ toaseuution, by internpting to;;Thift from MS 1
n " n shoulders the responsibility Well eVery Minister
aitants94 add to which he is liable far any advice•hel
.may give to the Crown. Tiliftsiver,' the principle of
the pilihtfccialtitution gave'to the 'Crown the right
I to, ma,kg:peacetsr war :it wavnot forlliaistirls, therm
for!, tft,flitike any declaration : their dirty was so ad-
vise Ostrow" on the subjeCt,'and afterwards to sub-
Mit it for the approbation or tenure of Parliament.
ffielafigtiL4k of atillonourable Member* who dif=
fered troni him had been•used k Eirtlitethat 2/ third
csioriel,u4d been open to Mhtisters.• ThOse Honour.:
ahli pn*Riiii had not; indreskai44thirkve ought
to huve dechkred war, but that.stretigerlanguitei. of
*fiat was termed 4' a mare dignified line ofleondoet,r
oqght to have been 'adopted. • Iftedro4hPrnaintaiis,
that fht.ough6itt the:whole cool -s!..Orthe rietherations;
wirethee he looked to thelariguirge of the to NOble
SiCretaiy. of. State fot Foreign Affair v when the wtb4.
jest of-the later/a -epee of fot•eigif Powers *the inter]
dal affairs of Spain Was fijit brodght under consider-
ation,. whither he 'considered'ilie language of the
Duke of Wellington at'irerCona, 'Whether he re-
arded that Of M. de Chateddbriand and of M. de
.Villele, it was distinctly stated that no inteiferenCe in
the internal arias of Spain was justifiable. When Tie
stateethose opinions, he must be allowed to add that
the conduct °treat nations was governed by things,
;and not by words. Every opportunity had been
'seized by Ministers to urge those opinions. it ought
do be allowed that that preference for amity,sOmach
found fault with, was becoming the character of a
country which assumed the character of a media,' r,
a country uhich sought to preserve the peace of Eu-
'tope, than more decided language, or properly speak-
ing, a tone of menace--(Hear, hear).—lf we had used
the strong language recommended by the Honourable
Baronet who spoke last.night, what would have been
the consequence? Why, that Honourable Gentlemen
opposite would have a right to accuse Ministers of
'having precluded themselves from the•possibilify of
'Voiding war should their mediation fail: tharvehad
pledged ourselves to support Spain With our arms;
sand then, should we not have had recourse to arms,
we should have been accused of having betrayed Eng-
land by using threats which we did not intend, nor
Were prepared tnetecute ; and that we had deceived
Spain by encouraging her to resistance in expressing
Our determination to support her, and then failing to
do so. The remonstrances and the argnments which
.had been used at Verona and 'Paris bY the. Duke. of
Wellington, and otherwise advanced Wy Ministers,
aving failed to preserve the tranquillity of 'Europe,
..did not think that menaces would ;have been at-
vitt with better effect. - Of the invasion of Spain
irt, ' ble disc precnred as sincesiciYisailY I,l,Onour-
Ca . ' • ' '• preceded Men. Me ernstutted
ill weftl► censure which bad been paised:npeni the Cols-
Oct.isii France, both by the Honourable Gentlerniiii
dpnosite and his own Honourable Colleagues.: During
the Whole .aurae of his Parliainentary life he had op
prod the -progress of
,Jacobinisin, the ipreaditig• of
4acabinical doctrines, and the objects of Jactibinical
irlots'. If he had held that the acts • of laitainiiral
ranee ought to be opposed in the heightof its rkso-
utionary career—if he had eqyally held that similar
Intentions of Bonaparte opght to be resisted; so would
•heritlso maintain that views and efforts of the same
nature' Ought to be contended against, thotigh•under-
taken' by a Bourbon Government—(Hen.t, hear).—
Such a tone as that recommended by the Honour-
able Member would have been more likely, to pro-
I <Wee irritation than conciliation. He was ready to
admit' that the invasion of Spain by France would
justify tfiniiters , m' declaring warz—(Hear, hear)—
provided the interrits of our own country demanded
such is hostile extertioni—'(Hier)—but lie maintained
fit ito.sneh -case existed in the present instance.—
tthecomttioniensent':or flit contest with France,
' inthad, lititleisittleciared hitsckade Of the ports"
its Siatith Ameriean'Colonies,',eipturesf many of
ourviershisats' shilis, and done other acts that would
have fully wartantetithis country in declaring war
against her. Na "I, therefore, feel ourselves obliged
to gel to`war Witt France on 'account of Spain under
those circumstances? On the contrary, we had in-

• - . -.
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Mi. VANSONl)lC:iigilt thei.iintkisisinene of •vrilt
.}sing, thpngh Unpleasant in the. iftflietinti;.‘tas'stM'
calculatedto tar Or fiOrn crime.. He should, there-.
fore, oispcise the il, and at this Stage hieshould take
• - .
the sense of the uise.
1
• Mr. 110BHO1;TS §aitJ,,the:fiOnc;itrable MeMbe
who had just spoken was tick; ip ;fie flume when Ms
Honourable Friend had introdtscuiLihe subject: He
knew of no lar. by which jail regulation could be
enforced by the Magistrate by whipping.' It, was: a
punishment iiiiiiiterf by..4onrt. Ttiq privacy "Of
Whipping rendered it. inefficacious, and .contrary.to
the spirit of English law. If' Whipping were to be
continued for the sake of etattifile, it shotild beptiblie.
IF, the decencY of females Was to'bre respected, .so
should the manliness of, the (ether sex. Ills ,system
of whipping produced the worst effecti,•particularly
on board ships. He remembered:once sailing in I
King's ship, in .which the Captain could not sleep
without a guard of :Alien; avid tibesi he (Afr,flob-
house) asked the reason,- he was told thatnevery man
in the ship had been so ofttn•floggeil;. Oat be could
not sleep in safety without such a precaution. - De-
cency and manliness required the abolition of such a
barbarous punishment.
Mr. N. CALVERT thought the punishment re-
quired modificatiOn, but was not friendly to its total
abolition. If it had been so, many Gentlemen in this
House would not probably have felt that self-respect
now, which its infliction was stated to take away.
Mr. S. BOURNE was friendly to a partial change
in chit; punishment, but not to its total abolition.—
In many cases of young-and hardened offenders,'he
thought such a-punishment very efficacious. Few in-
stances of abuse were traced to-the Magistrates in its
infliction; and he believed many persons were saved
horn the gallows, by their first chastisement being of
this description.
Mr. JOHN SMITH supported the motion, and
returned his hearty thanks to his Honourable Friend
for having introduced a Bill so humane in itself, and
so creditable to hii feelings. ~
Mr. H. SErMNER said, be felt it necessary to sug- •
gert the propriety of inserting an exception, petintt-
ting the correction of boys under eighteen years of
age, as a rnctte effectual mode of punishing juve- •
nile offenders. . .
Sir I. COFFIN, with reference to the assertion of
the Honourable Member for Westminster, called •on
him to denounce by name the Captain 'hi had 'al-
luded to, so that be might no longerreasein a dis-- •
grace to his profession....? . • ,: : •'?•;...,1 . •
' Mr. Hosnousa explained; es disitli.ll.C.eamisity.
.),ir 341HEYON disapproved of flogging{ been hi
public :schools.
Mr..PEF44:was no friend to *if titsteno4ollulelt-
ment at .5C110:44, but the c.ase sisos,dilfiwent-oldisligte
discipline requirecl,WilhOUlPlPHD•Lbalis -!.. .
_.....ishiflogila
He should prefer moderate etwponti perairelltelsealW/Pallt
respect to such- offenders, to solitary,- confotealKlnti
which he thought more likely-than whipping sedartiole
their spirit and render them useless to sor.set.p • The
punishment of whippiiig, by the Nagistvatesiu Dor-
chester Gaol had only taken place once,io two years,
on a boy of fifteen years.of age, wholiad committed
four robberies on his fellow prisoners within. a week.
The prisoner came to.the jail with a most reprobate
character, and he would ask, how was it, possibJe to
coerce such an offender as that bitt_by aeterity of
this description? • , • 1/1•
DE.LUSHINGTON reprobated all public exhilsi•
tions of this nature as disgusting to human nature,
and -could not permit offenders to be pu.njsliecl Pi;-
vately at the pleasure or caprice of any partial or eai.
asperated gaoler.- . , .
Mr. Alderman SMITH explained. . ..., ~.
Mr. Alderman WOOD said the punishment was *
ways inflicted in the presenceof the Sheriff ot Valisr-,
Sheriff, when administered witlgts the walls e(*.jeitt
An Hon. MIMS= said, that it was, from his out
feeling and experience, impossible that Any such oc7,
curtences should have taken place on boertlitis 11/41;•..,
jesty's ships, without hating called forth fhe'displeal
sine of that most honourable class-of Officers,.aud eol,
rut ing his degradation from his rank by theAdmirelty.
After a few observations from Mr. H. potation
and Sir T. BA It IN% .
Mr. R. MARTIN considered there, were. Cases in
which the continuance of this punishment might still
be desirable, although he felt the improirements sug-
gested by the Bill were sufficient to induce him to
support the bringing in of' the Bill. ' •
Mr. ESTCOURT supported the punishment by
whipping as indispensable to prison discipline, froth
his own personal experience as a Magistrate. .
Mr. GURNEY supported the Morton. - , .
Mr. Alderman THOMPSON thought it% salutary
mode of punishment if administered with cliscretien.
Mr. BENNET replied. If the House: wts indis-
posed to receive his motion, still he shouldihaie the
pleasure of reflecting- that his present efforts had laid
the foundation of the future success of the measure.
The House then divided— . • ,

deed felt onrselvet justified in continuing, to remon-
strate; for the interests of our own country did not
demand.that we should have recourse to arms. Such
were .the opinions of Ministers, and such had been
also the opinions of the greatest Statesmen who had
ever sat in that House, whether they had or had not:
formed pail of the Administration of the country,
such as the present was the case of Holladd in 1786;
and the coniluct of Ministers *on the present occasion
was fully justified and borne out by the opinions of
those two great rivals, Mr.'Poz and. Mr. Pitt.. They'
agreed in this, that we should not have•been justified.
in going to war ; *'r we shoold looic• at each party,
and ascertain what part in the contest, if-any; it
would be more palpably. our interest to take,—
The Right -Hon. Gentleman here .teal the declared
opinions of Mr: Fox and Mr. Burke oo that occasion;
in which both these Statesmen agreed, that we had
no business to. embarrass ourselves with any, other
:consideration than that which would be muse
likely to be of advantage to ourselves. Similar to
that wits thetaitgasge of Lord Grey in the Olit Asict
He did not feel it necessary fostate those artomeuts
of the Nable -14ard,ot any length ; iiseissssuffiCient up.
state, thaj:tboy were directed.pgainst, our •affording'
aritted sksottallice to theXp,a gkards! All thole anther
sitiet na4itto.tedents wire eq.uallz...
.. apiliCable; to tiiel
present Case.- The. rinse' ',Span wa :14
jest as itilTeSc, 'Great natianl could
not act upon priociples oCrointi*lgetiefiisity. 1971
diridualstnight irciA natipits-ctiidtk4sist. Vqf
tiono9rabletentlfinal.(l4kl.-R,.hFrts9h) hid,.fstpjp:,
mended an ec645/I)Kat nl4fr6l:
.
MK the naf tire Or 'ver—..it`nisis.noj to,ll)e'Op'e4ltoss49,
entered into Wiil,out•a ''<feterassolu We it, sj
Pcssi6l!) to a ii4si4V-41i4-n.411141i/* i°0444.411
A • 14. •

goddess I)*I/9;4w* ewes.* feas'ale to 60.' flirtid with'
--(eof , islagh);—Lrfbere- was=* Effiltnish - proVeib cf
which he begged leave to remind thellolise."4lYiaw,
not the siviard-withottt reasonf. nor • sheithli withiost.
satisfactiop." It would tie impossible tOlfarecariied
on such a: war RI ''-di4c. reContmende,l, by the lion.
reentlettieti. We t4eVerCkisilsi Ot ()Willi to go to war
Without pAisig in itap#psy. What would have
bieOtheiemWect ofi naval war carried on against France?
We it4likie was true,,crnXh the reviving corporeal*
of that -elosu*n—we milt;
.)a4v4e ; caesed the , dettriat
dots of a tVW intli-Viduals:-we might take possession
bf a sugar kind or two, East veil ;were not objects
Se srltWereir 13i itain ought 'to. conjetid:-(1-fears ,
.iseer).44f;we kvere to believe ihat 'Which' some Hon.,
pentle.nien asserted' that 4 *moll 'be iniobssible:tffe,
I -
IrtiineetO hold possessidi:bit*aitt—that the..con.,,
!Oast of
.thbi cliont4 . was' IsurelF v hi-O.:nary --..i0 ..
case, ossc • assistance was
,perfectly. ' unn*essarj. If;
ranee ihodld be tiseitined to rail in her,preseist.as in .
--' forMeiattempti;upciti SPain—if if 'was-true that :
1 iseriotd% 4101e-impossible' Or the:Fteach,...io hold,
possession of agreater poteion of that toiletry tEan
that actuall''occuPietl bj Nei. a,riny—and that. al.
ier
thongh the Spaniards migheysit;beable to meet their
enemies ih general engeriteiiti, still that they Were
equally well disposed 1 4r-capable of annihilating
them now by deskltOtaf.fare.ai they- had in their ,
former contests, the at
med,,aid of -this, otamery was
quite uncalled for. It was well said that to the same
result we must come at laic; that 'although we
were not now at war, no doubt we should in..it short
period be compelled to take op, arms; now it re-
mained to 'be proved, thit whenever France should
choose to go to war, we must necessifrify be coma tied.
It was said, that danger might possibly arise to us
from the hostile proceedings of France, but were'wes .
from the mere app►ehetiiiotr of such danger, to fly-to
arms, and plunge- into•war ? " It was els° said, that
having subjugated Spain, POrtugal would next be
attacked by the French. 'To that he would reply,
when that attack should be made upon our Ally
would be our time to take up arms. We had pro-
tected Pcirtngaragaiait Pratte' atal epain, even when
the former could Wield the' whole power of -Spain ;
but in order to do tharat present, she Must have pos.
session of the minds of its p6ntilation; as well as of '
the country itself. ...If :war was ieevifable, w. 4 were i
hound-to enter into it with vigour. He was eonyinted,
whenever it- Should be:deemed necesXate, the it
wonld be fotMcrwerl'iad the full means rile:in/41g it ..
on ; but Ministers would ill discharge their duty to
the country, if tbey should plena it into übnecessary- -
war.' At; Hon: Member (Mr. Hobhouse) lied said, ,
tharthls•COnntrywould have .been ready to: Sll prtll t a
' War,-irit wits a War of the people of Europe against
ise- Kiirgst-..bsi for one begged to express his..!lifFsting .
frigel,such an assertion, as inteh*deelaratron would
bletohadvo parallel but its that of the "'renal Can.
veotion- in 1792—a declaration which every thinking,
,s
'every hoeourable-M an must reprobate. Such a'dc-
411ration would bf itself be an act similar ta that
...
L4gamst which the licm.Mernber argued, for it would
, tan i
intetferente -in: the internal Albs of ore!).
.
r ntry n buropes ': He eras ceikvinced the country
would be eqbally fetiay'eiyudmit that we; had'ackbu-.
:Weir to interfere' for ther ; 'anti pistil: It tOglit, *be:
proved that onr safety was nell ti be terfnircinifset
We should not be justified id going to Wax, . We had
heard of " the cursed reonarchicel ptiaciple," and
that too in a country whose Constitution-was monar-
chical; aswl'it was well that it was so, for-othe rte.
narchical portion of'that•ConstitutiOn fd'lp? believe
was due' the support that had biea 'tilFcii4ed
.to
liberty 'ca.; greater degree thah bjany other form of
Giiverament for so lorig.a, period. There was no
despotism 'so great' or so:g!iedipg, al that esereised
by the manv—liy the rulingpower in a Republic.
lithe Hon. Gentleman intended to apply the term to
an absolute Government, then would his own obser-
vations on it not applp.7-.[Mr.-flontianas—As ex-
pounded by those tyrahts themselves.3--Mr: Wynir
proceeded Then the Otsse;:vitionn he had - made
did not apply. Bdt'uloin the same piintiple he
regretted the language that had been' used with
respect to many States of Europa. He did not-stand
there to defend the conduct of Foreiop.POtentatei;
but he could not see the policy of that violent abase of. •
them in which some Hon. Gentlemen had.indulged.
Undoubtedly it was a privilege Of:Hon. Gentlemen
to use any language which might appear necessary to
them; but in that very circumstance he- thought
would be found a check upon their too freely avail.
ing themselves of it. It etrtainly was no proof of
manliness to say that ;- thick then -- -
1 Such

of Europe,
being resorted
the cooducr
tks the Kir

man;
King 'lll
(The:
from o)

Fur leave being given - - 57.
. Against it > - - - 76 i
Majority -
The Bill was consequently thrown oat. ; •
. -- •
_,__. .I
ADJOURNED DEBATE ON THE LATE via- :i
GOCIAIIONB.
The Order of the Day was read for resuming the
Adjourned Debate on the lateVegociatioos.
The SPEAKER having put the question,
Mr. WYNN rose, and contended that there was no
intermediate 'course for Ministers to have folloWed
between peace and war. The litniourible:MeMber
ifor Westminster (Mr.llobhouse), in his speech onthe
first night of the debater had asserted that his
.19,.1- ifs btinisters ought to have stated to the Fr.
-Govet ument, after the opening of the chflogseralby,
ibe King,Of France, that if 'trance shouisl.tolgtuf
'to follow up her hostile declaration .Witliitviy4,4l,
Spain, they (Ministers) would immediate)/ mbintt
the whole of the documents co TeCte.l will' tpe sub-
ject to Politutit4it fOr its opinion,. iMkr 414 90.:
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ness to say that in which there was no denger.
'language was ealcriau•d to disturb the prime;
rope, and he, for one, could not apfithi.4.o(ieth
resorted to. He felt as little tissstiel 14404
niduct of the trencli.Goeernmf lit'
,PfcAs
• King 'of Spain,' from' 1814. to 47,
for' he saa, in the perifEniarthif f the•
'no reason for oxeithrowi*:**4o4Alitity:._.•
Right Hon. Gentlematn• hirt.,4***o.ifiatiat d.
oil e btiLe'D.U'ke oT
.*,ellirok, ' 4j1;1? li%
i" iS.IIII "su pp‘ort of the ittglaht:43' " iia-7
as . 4 steed vthy ive bad leolo,t- . , ,faction
itpies • receiited'.fropt .Spilhs,: • ,
..111.4-etterest
nediatiOn iti.:kee favon'r ?
..,...stieh :,filui ate
It Governrpefit vogiltivetlieadil ,
.9,Eijusiih-
iika
Ti 4 "iil,l4.teli ot thlts)pistrwth:l3. of
..yeirs'
rerekiiag
.trijur'its'a. ' -0-andr4l.l IA as_
refute to *--OpeCk Wilk *gfe , i sa.
7.
,i.... tie ihilithi pilA46444:4lll`;'#‘o ..itood
0 ..'frfle systetai tkrr 341*: , *ft trlt'Ots
rfalriniliorltititihlf.vica."'_ ;4741, , ;144:e4
Ott out' oiligi Vn. tiii. 0-v9K
_I
.Ice .
Spuin,:tchytkilkat It as rih-lj atilt t,t4jt,t4
sp,
9. that rtil
.0t lii-ise.lbeirseltrid6ll"4. —I,CFIiPI4
lit, uAlilii eilftt iouise'lkillt.lhellisU.S9;JAld.
re c o I.iitte it 8 til —l4 tfFak si*6l O. tilie244)-
Me "heuriiliiillertrused.*ei 'lrci - . piuit ..-
other cirettittstaiiiicsAthiT4 all • ' . f4c4ic,„
iiittidiss•Of 1 {die
,'
__t nature 'ii
Ifiet
.- • • •-• rt wotild aubli Ca nti r kidiA (tit af
4
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Sithil tallier Ill.:Ala 'file' tevP.•••••:-1•.
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