Star.
London, England, 1815-02-24 00:00:00

. .
he be told, that aviculture ahoulil 'he %aft to ibel
dunce of a free trade, when every other branch war
protected .agaittst toreign.conspetition t On woollens,
tite duty was 100 per cent. ; on cottons, 4185 10s.;
cm glass, of every kind, £114; brass. and copper, ma-
nufactored, £59 7s. 6d.; earthen-ware, ifl79 fls. 4d. •
dressed leather,..£l42 ; plate, £80; if gilt, £B9; with
long list of other duties, with which he would not
Trouble the House. He bad heard it said, that these
prohibitory duties were proofs of a bad system; and
.1 Gentlemen would not add to it by interfering
vuh this important branch. It did, however, ap-
„ear, that it had been interfered with—those laws
fad been repealed which placed agriculture on an'
qiul footing, in point of protection, with manufac-
cures—this was found to have had a bad effect—and
cis not just, under these circumstances, to say to
agricultural interest ,s we will not place you where
before were—you may struggle thruagh your
as you can."

As soon as the Hrnourable Member sat down,
tllert.. was a loud cry of Horner ! Horner!

Mr. HORNER (amid loud cheering) was anxious
to rut the Committee in possession of that opinion
which he certainly had formed very early in the dis-
ussion of the subject, but which he had endeavoured
to correct by subsequent arguments, and by his own .
-!search. The Honourable and Learned Member
roLounced a warm eulogium on the Honourable
mover of the resolutions (Mr. F. Robinson), who
ad e;ewed the question in a more advantageous light
:Ilan any of its advocates, and had laid down the •
rtincipie of a free trade which was never to be in-
-I:inged upon, except where some actual necessity
old be shown. This principle, therefore, being ac.
nowledged and aJopted, he did not see why the op-
; users of the measure should be taunted with the
tames of theorists and political economists, titles
v:llich his Honourable And Learned Friend appeared
Insious to disclaim ; but it should be recollected
;lose epithets had been applied by one who had avail-
llimselt of all the advahtages of the title when he
1.1.1 paradoxes to support, which, according to his
own statement only, appeared to be truths ; to poll.
•;c.il economists, who, of course, were then pointed out
the chat ness of their lac tildes and the depth of their
reSe.il Ch ; but were they to be condemned for reason.
ing—tor teasoning falsely they might, but surely not
;or merely reasoning. It did not well become per-
' Dns to call them theorists who had advanced such
taenties as that the price of labour had nothing to do
'vial the price or provisions, and that the price of corn
could not be affected by the price of land—(Hear)
those persons; one of whorl) had put a copy ot Mira.
4au's principles of taption into his hand, a transla.
•:on n', doubt made by that 'Hod. Member. Those,
.owever, who advocated the -Resolutions would do
wed, before they spread suds theories, to consider
that blirabeau's system.wwit prog sal to abolish all
taxes, and place the wholiiwert in a single tax
upon land—(Hear, hear.). His .Hun. Friend had
spoken rather lightly of Dr. Adam Smith; it never
had been held that the principles of
.that philosopher
were oliginal—tbey 'trete rather a digest of all the
apinions then held by the greatest philosophers of Iris
own country and of others, and his book had been
recommended by the greatest practical statesmen of
this country. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman
hen went into an examination of the arguments of
the last speaker, and endeavoured to refute them.
Ile maintained, that if the whole of the protecting
Julies were to be removed from the articles of foreign
-nanulacture, it could not afford any advantage to
he lgricultur;st. The fact was, that with the ex-
ception of one article, the British manufacturer could-
supply it cheaper, and that one article (linen) he
visposcd the advocates of the resolution were not
anxious to be brought iato market free of any incum-
brilce. The whole of those duties were national

disadvantages, and the measure under discussion
prrs2J to a.id a similar disadvantage to the most
Imp:mint of our national commodities, land t thend-
v of the propos-1 measure justified it by neces-
sity, but in his opitsion none of the argumentsor state-
mc;:ts of its supporters had made the necessi y apparent.
L.::: measure had been a temporary one, to remedy
a :•.inporary evil, he should hive had more difficulty
it, than now, when it was proposed to
make it a permanent principle of policy. The
cir-
c^ar.tanc:s of the country had given of late a st:ma.
lu, to agriculture, and great and extensive speculations
head b.•en nutted into. Naw those circutostaiices
ceas-d to exist ; the case was changed ; this had de-
tailed the recent extraordinary profits of agriculture,
and a considerable loss had been sustained; this might
form a very good reason for a temporary, but' st
fcr a permanent measure—but the firmer had been
disclaimed by all parties. lr.land had suffered more
fri,n, this change than even England; but this arose
from her having had, in a higher deA'rer, the artifi-
cial advantages of. which be had spoken—those ad-
vantazes bad ceased, and Ireland had lost in propos.,
too to her late gains. No' one felt- more lot' the
prosperity of Ireland than himself, but this tempo-
rary evil he considered as a pledge of future prospe-
"' becat.se it shessed the imp; ovemtuts, and the
spaautity of capital which had of late been invested
in agriculture. • Gentlemen smiled at this,
but such
1‘.411 the farts and he would venture to assert, that
the p.m:
was the first that ever affected
the Prosperity of irtiand,( near, hear.) The
next disadvantage which it was said would arise
only if the measure passed, was, that light lands,
lihjoh could only grow corn when it was at- a high
puce, would be abandoned, and a gnat loss of capi-
ta would ensue ; but if, as had been stated, the effect
N Ilte measure wou!d be to lower the price of corn,
tiv.le evil would be produced whether the Resolutions
:re adopted or not. This evil would 21110 take
r4ce if as much care and capital were applied to the
:111,l'ile land of flastid as it deserved ; yet !f any one
ii.)? advance this as a reason for not cultivating
ar!", lands, the idea would be scouted. The nest
Ivrunid assumed was, that the Resolutions would rett.
d_ornt country independent of a foreign supply of
ni this, if it was really the case, would be the
7...,',7fr.e.5t reason for adopting the proposed measure ;
he adopted the two principles assumed by A.
Smith,; nd aidiasitte.i that nationaldefence and national
.311„.4hitence formed good grounds.lor a departure from
usc grCat principle 01 free trade, he would vote for the
awdsure if it could be proved that thise
nsure wod
render the country inde • Aleut of foreignpply, I•
4111 wat believe that Pu
gth a sniau impqrS could ler nay
In timei materially affect the twice hi the mar-
a tad. the importations was large' which he did

.
'flee believe less ever ilk* to be the rift, t tout('
not'
rentertrtheuth.erounnntreye dwas •
Wepeen t • On foreign sup.;
plies.
• not at great exporting.
country, and the greatest part of the grain recently.
received had come from comities which would pro-
bably remain our friends ; from Holland, as an cm;
porium of the grant of other countries; •and from
Belgium, 'Where there was a prince of our creating,
And from the Baltic. If Franeirwese to-become an
exporting country, it would be a :proof of ber po-
verty ; no rich country was ever an exporting coun-
try. The poor export and the rich purchase ; they
purchase the raw material, and pay for it in fiaished
manufactures. The importation from .Filenoe.vois
casual; this year, in consequence of die abundance
of the late harvest; and in 1810, from the accumu-
lation of the crops of two or three years. The agri.
tulture in France was bad ; the quantity of ground
in tillage was great, but it was net very fertile. We
never could be dependant on France for a supply of
corn, while the Baltic and the Rhine poured forth
their stores ; and our resources of foreign grain
could not be cut off but by a union . of the whole
world against us, a thing which was possible, because
it had happened, but which was not probable. But
:supposing this to be the case, and so wild a project
ass destroying our commerce should ever enter into
the head of a powerful despot—as it were for the
.purpose of illustrating an extreme case, experience
had taught us that such a plan which had been tried
from 1810 to 1812, had been found impratticable,
-and those had been the years of. the greatest im-.
fort:Won known, and more especially from France.
--(Hear, luar.) —Agriculture had flourished most,
during periods of importation. The only remaining
ground to be examined was, whether the proposed
resolutions would produce a steady price? There
was no such guarantee for/ a steady price, as assur-
ing the corn-factor that he might, in a case of ne-
cessity, purchase as much foreign corn as he pleased.
The price of corn had fluctuated more after the cons
mencement of the French Revolution than during the
last 7 years, which had been years of great importation.
the three objects of the measure were, first, to relieve.
the British farmers; secondly, to render the nation
independent of foreign supply • and thirdly, to keep
the price of corn steady. Acrd he believed it would
not effect any one of those objects. The measure
would do no good : it was next to be enquired, wile.
ther it would not produce evil.? lie was aware of
the importance of agriculture, the first interest of the
State, and also of commerce, and he knew how they
operated oft each other. He could not sit down
without making some remarks on the probable effects
of the system proposed upon the agricultural la-
bourer, upon the manufacture, and the finances of
the country. He would ask whether or not this was
a time to enhance the expense of producing our ma-
nufactures, which raising the price of bread would
do ? England had certainly advantages over the
other nations in her manufactures—those great ad-
vantages were capital and skill, but they were not
completely domiciled here, and he would warn the
House not to do any thing that would give wings to
those advantages, to make them fly to other coun-
tries. On the other head he went into some length,
lamented the moral condition of the agricultural la-
bourer, attributed the chief evil to the poor laws, and
said that by paying a part of the wages of labour by
the poor rates, the peasantry were reduced from the
condition of free labourers to that of bond slavery
and villainage.—(Near, hear, hear.)—On the head of
finance the Honourable Gentleman pointed out great
difficulties, and said, that as the Government had
been borrowing a great deal of depreciated-and arti-
ficial money at high rates, it would be almost impos-
sible to pay die interest of that debt, when money
returned, with other property, to its real value.--
The man who could look such comp' cared evils in
the face calmly, had stron' -er nerves dian'he posses-
sed. He thought it would be wisest to do nothing in
the present case; but if any thing was done, he did
not think it necessary to protect the fittnel..
Mr. HUSKISSON argued in support of the ori-
ginal recoltitions at great length. lie began by vin-
dicating the accuracy of the evidence coutained in
the report, as well as the intelligence an.-1 respectabi-
lity of the witnesses examined. The calculaum of
the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Baring) that the,
grower had a houtuy a £18,000,000 from the con-
sumer, he argued to be not onlyeraggerated but pre-
posterous, And contended, that the consequence,
deed t, e,almost declared result of iris plan would be
to drive all the landholders from the metropolis, by
deducting from their rentals a sum of £32,000.000.
He could easily prove that this caltulation of
£18,000,000 from the consumer to the grower was
wholly mistaken, but for the sake of argument be
would admit sit to be correct, and apply the same
ma d_ of reasoning to the situation of the manufac-
ture'. Foreign MAlltitactures were excluded from
this country to_ protect our own. if they were per-
mitted to be imported, would it not produce an enor-
mous reduction of price; a sum at least equal to that
calculated by die Honourable 'Gentleman, and this
was the amount, according to his own reasoning,
which the agriculturist craw paid to protect the MA.
nulacturer.—(Loud eria of hear, hear.) He made this
assertion, not to produce beat or delusion in the pub-
lic mind, or excite jealousy between the different
ranks of society, but solely to prove the fallacy of the
Honourable Gentleman's (Mr. Baring) calculation:,
upon the converse of the question,,-(litat, hear.)
The proposition attempted to be proved by the Ha
nourable Gentleman, that corn might be had at forty-
five shillings, if no law existed against importation,
was equally fallacious. It was founded upon the
datum, that earn might be imported at forty-five
shillings. This teas refuted by actual experience. 11
importation could keep down the price, how did it.
happen that during the last ten years the price had
risen higher than at any former period, though the
quantity imported has been considerably greaten+.
This proved that importation was not sufficient to
limp down the price. Mdcli stress had been laid, and
justly laid, on tile
Misfit have of distressing us; but it appeared to him,
that though it was beyond their cosstroul to in-
fiune errs,
eour importations yet that we should secure to
e
ourselves an independent supplytir4 cTheminotonweirsulititha;
Continent can distress us, or
troul. It -they ea can,
we
secu
roet adis-sturePigsa yuatheluesr tiottheitdialcrealon.
bat been suffereclear that we should encourage
d in respect to cotrnhec
grit
4perwathssequwhiallci
was completely subject be out *Wa "Oa" lb

. . . •
l'neeessity of a -mime of reVer woo be 'AI, too
'elear, to require proof or illustratiou-••-(Rwir, hear.)
Nothing was more notorious than the distresses of the
Landholders; and not only of the Landholders,' but.
consequently of the great mass of agricultural la-.
bowers. Thus the great spring of action which in.
creased capital by putting it in motion, was relaxed,
and capital, on the other hand, reacted upon
spirit of exertion, by giving to it new energy and ex.,
tension. Upan his owe knowledge he could state,
that the conduct of the farmers as a body, was must
liberal, humane, and public spirited. He knew in a
'district with which he was particularly acquainted,
the extent to which they supported public schools, and
other useful and benevolent institutions. A panic
existed amongst them, which it was necessary the
House should allay. He reminded Gentlemen who
Oppased this measure, of the absolute prohibition of
the exportation of coarse wool, though it was certain
it might be had much more cheaply manufactured
abroad ; and it was asserted from a communication
made to him on the subject, that persons engaged
in the manufacture of iron, were anxious fur a
protection against iron imported from Sweden.
England was such a country, that even sacrifices
should be made to render her, as far as possible,
independent of the nations of the Continent.—
It was particularly the interest of England to lo .k to
the state of Ireland, and protect her agriculture.—
The produce of Ireland was under due controul of
;he Legislature, beyond any of time. casualties which
attend.our relations with the Continent. We could
not tell at what moment our manufactures) might
be excluded from the Cuntinent ; but in Ireland we
were always sure of meeting with a demand fur Clem
proportioned to her resources, which we had it in our
power to protect and improve. But what was our
Situation in respect to Fr.lac• ? Ii 4 had harve.t
1.1-red in France and in Eng! Ind at the Same time,
we not only lost one of car foreign sources of sup-
ply, but we had a powerful competitor in the torei.,4ll
market. What would be our condition, depend.nit
upon foreign supply at the breaking out Of a war,
with an increas:d taxation, and a reduced demand
our manufactures ? Cheapness of I.rovisions, he ar-
gued, would produce a dimunitinn of a-gricultural la-
bour, and idleness land combina:ions among la-
bouring multeacturers. if the growers were pro-
tected, the capital already laid out upon lan I would
be lost. Capital so applied was incapable of being
as in other instances, withdrawn. Cheapness, with.
put a demand for labour, was a symptom of distress.
This country had capital with..lit cheapness—France
had cheapness without capital, a symptom not of
prosperity, but of decay. An lion. Gentiemaa who
spoke on the preceding evening had indulged in sonic
observations upon the greater luxury in-which our
farmers now lived, and lamen!ed that they sometimes
preferred a bottle of wine to a mug of ale. For his
own part, he thought the change extremely natural ;
and that it was the necessary consequence of im-
proved skill, and enlarged profits. Had not the same
effects taken place in the commercial world ? vid
not our merchants now think at desirable to exchange
the City for the squares at the west end oftown ; and
instead of dining at one or two o'clock with their
clerks, as their forefathers did, were they not now to
be seen sitting down so a table profuse in its v.triety
ofoilsbes, at sax and *even ? (Hear, hear, hear.)
But lie (fir. H.) did not complain that it was so.—
He honoured the industry, and gloried in the success
which occasion-A it—(Hear, hear) ; and though the
comparison might appear invidious, he was driven
into it by the equally invidious comparison made by
the Honourable Geialeman. From the whole of the
evidence which had been gives before both Houses
of Pailiameut, it was clear, in his opinion, that less
than 80s. as a protecting price, would not remunerate
the farmer; but that at that price he would be remu-
nerated, it properly protected. Nor did he at ail
anticipate the-dangers which seemed to be apprehen-
ded, that because fits. were fixed as the protecting
price, corn could never be at a less price, as the ex-
perience of the last century abundantly proved that
the market price of corn was frequently, nay, almost
always, below the protecting price. In behalf of the 'I
agriculturist, in behalf of the manufacturer, in brhalt
of the public creditor, in behalf of the whole com-
Murky, he recommended the adoption of his Right
Honourable Friend's proposition.
Mr. Rosa and Mr. Husgassotf severally explained.
Mr. BARING then said, he observed there was
some opposition to his amendment, making the mea-
sure remain in force 4, for a time limited," and not
wishing to give the House snore trouble than neces•
sary, lie should withdraw it. The amendment WAS
accordingly withdrawn.
Considerable discussion then ensued on that part
of the resolution, fixing the average price of wheat
at 80s. •

Mr. CALCRAFT,wished to know if any obser-
vation was to be made to the House, on the subject
of the average price of wheat, fixed in the Resolu-
tion at SW.
Sir M. W. RIDLEY said, he understood that the •
average would ultimately be less than bus. ; there-
fore he moved, 4, that the protecting price of WileaL
should be 761. instead of 80s !"
Mr. F. LEWIS observed, that not one word had
yet been said respecting the average. No notice had
been given on that subject, and it was necessary to
know what was to be done.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
said, the average of eighty shillings had been calcu-
lated from the best returns. yet be admitted it was
subject to correction. He conceived if it was subject
to correction, some reduction would be the conse-
quence, and probably it might not be more than
seventy-sis shillings. However, if the reAution
passed with eighty, that price might be atterwards
made rather more consistent. The Right Hon. Geu-
tieman here took occasion to thank those Members
who had so ably contested the subject, and to observe,
qua this resolution had been most liberally supported,
particularly by a Right Hon. Gentleman opposite
( Mr. Poneonby) ; who as firmly supported the views
of Government on this occasion as he had opposed
them on many others. He then observed on the pro.
priety of protecting the growers of corn, while almost
every species of capital was secured on the most ad-
vantageous principles.
Mn. RUSE wished to knew what was to be done
on the question of average, and whether it was to be
understood that it had been taken from the maritime
districts us England, Melodist& the principality of
Wales

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
answered in the negative.
Mr. ROSE then said. the average was fallacious.
'rhe experiment adopted on this occasion was tried in,
1791, and found defective.
Toe CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
cliti, the calculatsun of the average had been made
byti.e Board of Trade from the best returns.

Mr. BARING said, the uncertainty of the average
produced a new question, namely, whether the ave.
rage should or not be altered t He conceived that
it WAS a question of considerable importance, which
could not be hurried, and under that impres,iol, the
hour being late, he moved-44 That the Committee
do adjourn."
Mr. ROBINSON expressed some dlubt whether
the question of adjournment could be entertaMe.f.
On the subject of average he was disposed to recom-
mend 80s. That amount was better, with the co;:-
venience of reducing it, than 755. without it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCI-lEQUZI
had no disposition to oppose adjournment, 0 it u- •
the wish of the House.—( Cry of ND, no, Go
Mr. BARING, adverting to the orderly s::.irtrln
in which the subject had been entertained, cod, lie
should certainly persist in his moti.,n if the usual as.
gularity did not prevail in the proce.:dings.
Mr. F. Lewis, Alderman ATKINS, olr.
the CUANCILLOA of the EXCHEQUER, and Mr. \V tux -
imam), continued a conversation respecting the pro•
priety of adjournment, to give an opportunity of pro.
curing better information on the subject.
Sir MATTHEW W. RIDLEY, understarni:ng
that 765. was likely to be the price resulting from z'Ae
calculation of 80s. declined pressing his motion.
Mr. HUSICISSON recommended the Cointnittee
not to enter into the sit'aject. It was clear, Ile %%id,

the public would understand, that the :node of t tkine
the average at 80s. would benefit the contit mer.
Mr. PItOTH E ROE understandin^, that the Hun.
Baronet bad withdrawn his mmtion tor fixing the
price at 765. took the liberty of proposing that pi ire
himself. He accordingly moved to that effect.
The question of Adjoitraracnt being first to be clic.
p^sed of, was put, the House divided, and the Gal-
lery was cleared.
The Conan tee continued in debate above an hour,
during the whole of which time strangers were ex-
cluded. The mrtion for adjlurnment was negatived
without a division; alter the Comm:me decided
on Mr. PHOCIIEItoE'S Amendment, fur making the
price at 76s—Ayes 65—Noes VO9—M nity against
tha Amendment U.

The price of 80s. (as in the original regulation)
was then agreed to, and the other Resolutions hcing
carried, the Douse adjourned at Four' o'CLocis is the
Morning.