Star.
London, England, 1805-05-24 00:00:00

ISLE OF NAN.

Colonel STANLEY prefented at the Bar the Report of the
Committee to whom were referred the Petition and Claims of the
Duke of Athol, refpeding the We of Man.
Mr. CUR WEN did not-wilt at this moment to oppote the re-
ception of this Report, though he totally objected to its contents ;
an his wills was, that the fubjedt Ihould undergo a full difeuitton
in a Committee of the whole Houle, and that the whole of the
merits of the Noble Duke's claims Itiould be fairly and fully in
vritigated He hoped the Houfe, in its attention to the claims of
the Duke of Athol, would not be unmindful to the complaints of
a numerous and loyal body of his Majefty's fubjeds, though not
uprefented in that Houfe ; and as it was the peculiar privilege of
Parliament as well to watch over the modes of rang money
from the pockets of his Majelly's fubjeds, as to guard with vigi-
lance its proper difburfement, fo he exulted in this cafe the inha-
bitants of the Ifle of Man would not be expofed to impala, which
it was m t juft they fhould pay,at the mere fiat of the Noble Duke,
who claimed the privilege of taxing them juft as he pleated, of his
cum mere will and caprice ; nor Coffer the public money to be la.
vilhed in the payment of demands, not founded on any jolt or rca
tunable title. At lealt he trotted, that before the Houfe would
affent to the Report now offered, and founded on tech a various
multiplicity of items and documents, they would fully and fairly
invetligate the whole. This was not the lira time thole claims of
the Noble Duke were brought forward; they had been repeatedly
urged, and every time in a new and different Rape from the for-
mer. They cams now forward upon a footing totally different
from that on which they had been Taft fubmitted to his Majefty's
Privy Council, who, alter four years deliberation, and alter re-
ferring the fubjedt for the judicial confederation of his Majefty's
Attorney and Solicitor Generals, and receiving the elaborate Re-
port of aloft Learned Gentlemen upon the fulled, decided that
the Duke of Athol had no right to the cLirns he preferred. The
Noble Duke claimed, under the appointment of James I. a power
which, he thanked GOD, no King of this country ever enjoyed—a
power of taxing the people at his mere will. This power the Haute
of Keys, in the We of Man, who are the proper Repute-neatly('
of the inhabitants, denied ; and this was the queftion now at iffue.
It was fomewhat extraordinary that though thofe claims had been
rejeeted,afur tour years deliberation, by the Privy Council,when a
Noble Lord, now in another Houfe (Lord Sidmouth), was at the
beaded Adminiftration—an Admi nift rationwhich he hadfupported,
which he Ronk' ever retpeet, and which he confidered as a much
more vigorous one than that by which it was fuceeeded ; yet by
the Privy Council which fucceeded, after a deliberation of feartely
as many weeks, with the facility of turning to all the documents,
and to the Attorney and Solicitor Generals, for their evidence on
the cafe, they decreed that the claims were founded ; and this dm
eilion was confirmed by a Committee of this Houk, which bad
only fat a few days. In that Committee, of which he was a mem-
ber, lie oppoied the claims; but finding he flood alone, and was
unable to prevail, he ceafed to attend it. What be now wilhed
was, fell inveftigation before the whole Houfe, and that the whole
ache P.; port and evidence be printed.
Lord r.id, that the reafon why the ultimate
decifion of the Privy Council was in oppofition to the Brit, was,
that a re Iv memorial, Rating new fads, and founded upon new
evith nee, had been prehnted by the Noble Duke, to whom it was
a part of the jeftice due that the decifion thould nut be delayed,
which might be the cafe, if, at this late period of the Seflion, the
whole of thorn voluminous doeuments were to be printed, which,
he eontei.ded. were in print already ; and that the Honourable
Gei.J, :scan had derived his information from a printed copy. He
concladed by moving, .` That the Report be taken into confidera-
Lion oil Tuefdey next."
Mr. CURWkN perfifted in his former objections, and moved
an amendment, for poftponing ft till the sth June.
'This produced a defultory difeuffion of eonfiderable length.
Mr. I. H. BROWNE,Sir W. BURROUGHS, and Mr. ROSE,
fupported the objections and motion of Lord Glenbervie, and
thought the printing of the papers unneeeffary, or at loft that
the delay of printing, if it Roulet occur, ought not to protratft the
confideration beyond Thurl'day next.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER was of the tame
opinion.
Mr. JOHNSTONE and Mr. CREEVEY fupported, the argu-
ments and objedions of Mr. Curwen.
Mr. BANKS was for printing, and would agree to Thud:lay,
provided the diteuflion might then be pottponed, if the papers WPM
not timely printed.
Mr. WINDHAM obterved, that the claim had been now a* yea,ti,
In agitation, and therefore the further delay of a few days or
weeks, err even to next &Mon of Parliament, could make no great
difference.
The queftion was at length called for, and the Houfe divided—
Ayes, for Thurfday tip—Noes 58—Majority 6t.
ELSTERTH REPORT._

Mr. Setjeant BEdT.—•." 1 rife, Mr. Speaker, to
salt the attention of the Houfe to a fubjea, perhaps.
one of the molt important to its own privileges that,
has ever been agitated within thefe walls. From the
Eleventh Report of the Commillioners of Naval En-
quiry, it appears, that enormous fume of the public
money have been railed by Loans, and difburfed for
alledged fervices, by order of his Miledy's Minifters,
without the permiflion of this Houfe, and without
any account laid before Parliament of fuel' dilburds,
menu. Sir, knowing, as we do, the opinion of the
public without doors, expreffed from every part of
the nation, of the laudable vigilance exerted by the
Commillioners of Naval Enquiry, to whom other
abufes have been referred for invedigation, and feel-
ing, as we molt, from record abufes in the expenditure
of public money, the neceffity which raids, in times
like the prtfent, for exerting, with the utmoft vigi-
lance, the peculiar privilege which it is.the province
anti the duty of this Houle at all times to exercife
over the public finances ; yet, in calling tbc attention
of the Houle to this fubjeff, I do net mean they
fhould pronounce judgment againd the parties im-
plicated, upon the mere evidence of the Report it-
fi:lf; for although the fads dated therein may have
been proved to the fatisfaaion of your Commif-
mi.: we have every reafon to rely on their ye-
am inclined to thipk, tke Houle, before
•eds to any rneafures againd the parties im-

plicated. ought to go into the enquiry t and this will
be the objea of the motion which I (hall have the
humour of propofing this day. Sir, it cannot be ne-
c4ary for me to remind the Houle, that it is the
bounden duty of Parliament to watch over our Con-
ttitution, and to take care that no inroads are made

upon it by any Milliner, nr any fetofmen; and mote

tipecially that part which comes fo peculiarly under
the attfpices of the Hottfe of Commons, namely, the
fecurity of the public purfe. Sir, it is impoffible for
any man to look at the farts [Wed in the Report on
your table, ally more than at thofe other faFts of a
fitnilar natute, that have come under your conlidera-

lion, and not to fee that the groifeff abufes have been
committed ; and that fcarcely any law has been pail
fed for the fecurity of our Conflitution on thole
points, that has not been violated. I know not if it
will be difputed, whether money can be raifed and
diflvtifed in this kingdom for the fervice of the
Crown, without the content of Parliament ; but that

large fums of money have been fo raifed and dilburf-
ed, we have feen from recent and undeniable fans.
It, therefore, becomes highly neceffary to afcertain
whether loans of money can be raifed from the peo-
ple by the Minitlers of the Crown, without the con-
tent of Parliament, confinently with the principles of
the Britifh Contlitution ; becaufe fcarcely a Salon
ofParliamentpaffes without one or more votes ena-

bling the Minilter to raife loans fof the Rate upon
Exchequer bills ; and if it be the law of the conflitu•
tion that loans cannot be railed upon Exchequer bills,
without that permiffion, it certainly cannot be legal to
iffue navy bills for the purpofe. But though I may
entertain no hopes of fuccefs in the motion which it
is my purpofe to offer, it is my duty to bring it for-
ward, and at leali to Rate to the Houfe what former
Parliaments have done in fimilar cafes, and what
opinion they entertained of the power of Minifters to
toile public loans without their permilEon. It appears
by a ref elution of the Houfe, patted on the 7th of
June, tigfo, that if any perfon whatfoever should
itfue Exchequer Bills,or other Government fecurities
for the purpofe of raifing fums of money for the fer-
vice of the crown, without the confent of Parliament,
he fhall he refponfible to Parliament ; and in other
refolutions, the fame principle is directed againfl any
perfon who (hall purchafe tallies by anticipation.—
But, Sir, another principle is, that it mu ft be ()bei-
m Government cannot raife loans from the public,
without the confent of this Houfe: for if this Houk
were once to admit fuch a principle, or pals fuch a
meafure unnoticed, it would not only furrender the
moft valuable of its privileges, but every other pri.
vilege it h 3; obtained, with that, would greedily fol-
low. A learner( Writer upon the Conflitution of this
Country (Millar), has laid, that it has In guarded
every avenue and paffage, by which the Prerogative
,could invade our righti, that the Crown cannot raife
any loan or fupply of public money without the con-
fent of this Houle, and is, therefore, obliged the
more frequently to call meetings of Parliament, be-
ing unable to levy any money without their interven-
tion. I (hall quote another instance, which occur-
red thortly after the Revolution, to prove how jea-
lous the Parliament was, in thole days, of their pri-
vileges on this point. The inftance to which I allude,
is that of the Bank Aft, which, in exprels terms,'
debars the Government from borrowing loans of
money, even from the Direaors of the Bank, without
the cunfent of Parliament : and is it probable, I elk.'
that Government lhould be prohibited from borrow-
ing money from the Bank, and be left at liberty to
retie loans from others ? The fact is, that the re-
ftriaion in the Bank Aa was made on account of the
cone Lion exilling between Government and the
Bank, and to guard again.l the probable influence of
the former over the latter, and the confequent facility
of procuring thence loans of money. But, Sir, it never
could have entered into the apprehenfion of the fra-
mers of that Ad that Minifters might be at liberty
to go into the city and (catch from one Ram to ano-
ther to raife money by the aid of brokers. In fad,
the reafon why they confined the reftriaion fo pecu-
liarly to the Bank was, that they never once furpea-
ed any other means would be reforted to. My ob-
jea, therefore, is to thew how fuch evils have been
guarded againft by the Conftitution. No Member
of this Houfe, who lived within fifty years of the
Revolution, coidd have conceived that any Minifter
of the Crown, or any Government in this Country,
would have ventured to adopt the meafures in this
way which we have feen praßifed within the laft few
years, and pallid by without any enquiry. Even
fince the year t 803, independently of the yea num-
ber of Navy Bills that have been iffued in the only
legal way they ought to have been iffued, namely,
for Rotes and actual fervices ; and which becom-
ing due, inftead of being paid off, were taken up
by ;fining other Navy Bills, as has of late been
the practice at the Bank, no left a (inn than
4,30000001. have been railed by the Ming of
.Navy Bills ; and of this no communication was
was ever made to Parliament. It appears, page 5t 3
of this Report, that on the sd Oaober, tBoz, a letter
was written by the Secretary of the Treafury to the
Comptroller of the Navy, directing him to itfue Navy
Bills for the bun of soo,oool. for the purpofe of raif-
ing that fum. One would imagine, by the frequent
and familiar ufe of this kind of tglource, that inflead
lof his Majefly trufting to the Houfe as the proper
Ichannel for granting fupplies, it was only necefFary
to iffue a letter from the Secretary of the Treafury to
authorize the railing of enormous (urns upon Navy
Bills. But, Sir, my objeaion goes equally to (mall '
firms as well as large ; becaufe if you admit a (mall
fum to be thus raifed to-day, a large one will be
railed in like manner to-morrow. In the proceff of
a little time any furn, however enormous or unnecef-
fary, may be railed by the Crown, without the con-
tent of this Houle. In this cafe, Sir, it appears that•
the order from the Treafury Wired on the sath of Oc-
tober ; on the L oth of November the money was
railed ; Parliament fat the very next day, yet no
communication whatever was made to this Houfe.—
It is unnecelfary for me to Rate what would have
been the opinion of Parliament in other times upon
a proceeding of this fort. It is however clear that
the enormous fum I have Rated has been raifed with-
out any application for the affent of the Houfe of
Commons. It is fufficient for me to fay that this fum
was railed at periods, during great part of which Par-
liament was fitting ; and that no communication
whatever was made. Now, Sir, if it he not lawful
for the GovPrnroP^t to raife money without the con-
lent of Parliament, will any man fay this tranfac-
don is legal ? What, I afk, is the pretence to uftify

it ? State neceffity will, I allow, at times arife, that
may authorize fuch condo& in a Miniller ; but it
cannot prevail for two years together, nor fuperfede
the duty of communication to Parliament. As the
At Rands, it is illegal. AU I afk then is, for the
Houfe to go into the enquiry, and let it be for thnfe
Gentlemen on the other fide. of the Houle to (hew the
exiflence of any State-neceffity, not by thttements
here, but by regular evidence before a Committee.—
By law the Crown is reilrided foam borrowing mo-
ney for any purpofe, even for paying debts, without
the confent of Parliament ; and here no new circum
(lance appears, for which a Minifler could not have
been prepared to jußify the meafute upon the ground
of exigency. But, Sir, there is another circurnflance
of which I complain (till more than that of which I
have Rated : for though I feel that, on the part of
Minitlers, (landing in the fit uation they do, it was a
high violation of the law of the country, as I under-
Rand the report and I (hall be glad to find I have
alifunderftood it)); from the explanation I (hall this
day receive (1 al ude to the manner in which they
have paid away the money, and which, in my mind,
is Rill more repreben(ible than the mode of railing
it) ; it was furely their duty to have fubmitted the
whole of the circumflances under which they aded
to Parliament, and the proof of necetlity would
have obviated all objections to complete indemnifi
cation. In page 449 of the Report you find, by
the queftion put to Sir Andrea, &nape Hammond
and his anfwer thereto, that thofe bills were if-
fued for the purpofe of railing money, and not for
(ores furni(hed, or actual fervices rendered, which
would have been the only legal ground ; and in the
next Ratement you find them Rated a's bills regularly
iffued for (ores received and fervices rendered.—
This, Sir, was a moll grofs impofition upon the
Houfe ; for, inflead of being ;trued to difcharge debts
to come due in the courfe of the current year, they
are appropriated to pay the debts of former years ;
and thofe are circututlances which, if Parliament
had not been impofed on, it would never have fanc-
tioned or contented to filch a violation of its own
privileges. Such a conduit, Sir, I fubmit, was in the
higheß degree reprehenfible ; and, it loch attempts
to impofe on the Houfe, by the procludion of falfe
vouchers or falfe returns, be permitted, the conic-
quence mull be to darn), all confidence in the ac-
counts Rated by Minifters. No tranfadion can be
more repugnant to law : pollihly it may be ex•
plained away ; but, nntil I have other proofs, I mull
agree with the opinion expreffed by the Commiffioners
in their Report, that they fee no reafon why there
thould have been any departure from the ufual form
of proceeding, and refort had to Inch meafures as
there ; meafures which, I believe, would never have
been difcovered, but would have remained for ever
concealed from the Houle, had it not been for the ta-
lents and vigilance of the Commiffioners of Naval
Enquiry. If it was polTsble that any fuch State ne-
ceffity could exift for two years, what becomes of
the boailed statements made during that time to this
Houle ? For, infiead of the country being in that mi•
ferable Rate of exigency which called for fuch defpe-
rate expedients, the Right Hon. Gentleman conftant-
ly Rated, in pompous language, that we had abundant
refources to carry on the war in which we were en-
gaged—whereas, it would now appear, we were in a
Rate of poverty. I can fuggeft but one of two rea-
Cons that could actuate any Minifier in fuch a cafe ;
namely, that either his eftimates mutt have been
(holt of the proper amount, or a part of the money
voted for naval fervices mull havebeen employed for
the purpofes of the army, or fume other fervice ; and
this too would be another inilance of violation of the
law, which Rridly forbids the application of money
voted for one purpofe being appropriated to any
other. How has it happened that money was not
provided, when the Navy Bills are iffued at three
months, and therefore could not come by furprize ?
—Sir, I think I have proved, that there is ground to
charge his Majefty's Minifters in this cafe with a vio-
lation of thelaw, a mifapplication of the public mo-
ney, and a grofs deception upon this Houfe ; and,
unkfs the Right Honourable Gentleman can (hew
that I have totally millaken that Report, and juftify
his own conduct, it mutt be plain that he has vio-
lated the Conititution. At all events, I have (hewn
enough to prove the neceftity of going iato enquiry.
—I have to complain, in the next place, of another
violation of law, ins taking from under the controul
of the Lords of the Admiralty, thofe tranfaCtions,
for the fuccefs or failure of which they only are re-
fponfible, and transferring them to that of the Se-
cretary of the Lords of the Treafury, who have no
more to do with them officially than the Lord Chan-
cellor. ' Sir, I will lay, that any commands fo given
to any Naval Officer, not fandioned by the Fird
Lord of the Admiralty, ought not to have been
obeyed. It has been fettled by an Odder of Council,
as appears on page 499, that all Naval Juries mutt
be directed by the Lords of the Admiralty, and any
!difference of opinion be ultimately fubjed to the con-
troul of the Firit Lord ; all Navy Contracts, except
for Secret Service, mull be made under his direction.
Yon will find, that too,oool. has been railed by Navy
Bills, for Secret Service, by the fame illegal mode.—
But it mull be obvious, that Navy Bills cannot be
legally iffued for Secret Services ; the proper fund
provided by law for Secret Services being the Civil
Lift, under what is called the Civil Lill Ad. And
the Right Hon. Gentleman who introduced that Bill,
fo framed it,becaufe he knew no other proper fource,
as Minißers were refponfible to Parliament for all
films voted them for Ipecific fervice, but not for Se-
cret Service; and therefore it could not be fupplied
from any fund for the appropriation of which Mini
Revs are refponfible. What fecurity then has the
Houfe'for the difpofal of fuch money ? Not even the
oath of the Miniller, as in the cafe of fuch fervice—
nothing but a mere affertion ; in which cafe I beg to
elk whether Parliament can be Paid to have any con-
tronl at all ? But if this is the fort of piton by which
a Minifter is to cover the expenditure of fuch a turn
as 95,0001. in one inflisoce Hated to be paid to a man
arhofe name even is not mentioned, and td,ocol. in
another, for fervices of too delicate a nature, forfooth.,
to be difclofed even tothe Commiffioners of Enquiry,
I know not to what extent profufion and irrelponti-
bility may travel fraripaj's. But his Majefty's Mini-
Rers, not fatisfied with violating the law, violate even
the rules laid down by themfelves. If, however, the
Commiffioners of the Navy, and thofe of Naval En-
quiry, are men not fit to be entrufted with fuch con-
fidence, they are unworthy of their offices, and ought
to be difsniffed. I admire, however, his fatlidious

delicacy, %vb.:eh eats di/but-re furls rums
s: gs.oecl l-
one inftance, arid 16,0001. in nuother, ‘;ithutit
at tnernoranJum of the mode esrenduttr4,
the latter twos out to be the ever monciab):

Expedition, known to every varerman ef.ll7e riser
long before it was attempted, in vain, to be cattle
into circa. Having now, Sir, Hated to the Houle
the ground of my mothr. I do not call noon it to
pron-urce judgment. We Hand upon a •ffiserane
footing from that of a former night, when yria, Sir;
by your decilinn, did lo much honour to yourfclf and
the high and important Ration you fill. There mu
judgment was warranted Ly tae admiffion of the party
acc.nfed ; but here we have no filch ground to gc
upon. The Honfe, however, is called upon to in
vefligate, and the Right Hon. Gentleman has told
us that he will not oppofe any inveltigation, as far as
it goes towards his own condi.d ; but eqi,onee it is hie
pleafure or not, it is not for us to enquire. It is coo'
duty to invetligate. We owe it to the country. Hi•
Majelly's Minittets may, perhaps, make out a cafe
for their own jullificetion, but they are bound to go-
vern the country, not only wifely and leqly, btu ac-
cording to law. I have in my hand an old (haute or
William 111. which lays it down as an indilpenfalebt
maxim, that all Kings and (teens, who affirm,: the
Government of this country, mall he bound to adml.
nifter it according to the laws of the land, and not by
their own will, caprice; or private judgment ; and
that no Minitter will be allowed to depart from this
law with impunity. Sir, it was objeded in the mo-
tion of an Honourable Friend of mine (Mr. Fox), for
the Emancipation of the Catholics the other night,
that it could not be granted, becaufe it was contrary
to the eftablithed law of the State, and might endan.
ger the Conflitution. I hope, Sir, the fame ferule's-
tons regard for that Law and ennaitution, will opt..
rate alio in this cafe, and that no Minifler (hall be al-
lowed to violate either. I (hall now move you, Sir,
" That a Seleet Committee of this Heide be
ap-
pointed to take into confider ation the Eleventh Re-
port of the Commiffioners of Naval Enquiry, and
repott their opinions thereon to this bionic."
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEWTER--e
" I am no lefs anxious for the enquiry propoted, than
the Honourable and Learned Gentleman, who has
fo much in detail urged the propriety and nem-airy of
the inveßigation ; and I am the more folicitons that
it Ihould be purfued, becaufe, with all the attention
that Honourable and Learned Gentlemen has paidto
the fubjeft, he feems wholly miftaken with regard to
its merits, from whence I may fafcly conclude, that
others, not poffeffing the fame zeal and abilities, will
be expofed at teal to an eqnal degree of mifappre-
henfion. An additional motive I :eel in facilitating
this obleCt, from the convietion I indulge, that the
refult of the molt diligent and minute examination,
will be petfeelly fatisfaCtory to the public. The only
modification I would fuggeft in the condo& of this
bulk& is, that the one part thould be referred to a
fecret, the other to a fele& Committee—the former
might exclufively enquire into matters conneeted with
the fecret Service ; the latter all the general tranfac-
tions to which the Eleventh Report may be confider-
ed to apply. The divifinn of the Committee will
not only be feund expedient, but their fuceeffion in
order of time, that the fame perfons who may be ex-
amined before both Committees, may not have their
attendance required in each at the fame time. After
the animated addrefs by which the Houle his been
juR gratified, it will perhaps be expated that I thould
lay a few words in explanation.
is The Honourable and Learned Gentleman con-
friers the iffue of Navy Bills, in the form of renew.
ed Bills, to be calculated to overthrow the entire
authority of Parliament, to fubvert all principles of
public right, and to arike at the vitals of the Brat'
Conllitution.' If indeed foci be the awful tendency
of fuel' an expedient of finance, it is fomewhat extra-
ordinary that this has never occurred to the Cornmife
(loners of Naval Enquiry—it is a difcnvery for which
the Houle is wholly indebted to the ingenuity of the
Hon. and Learned Gentleman ; the Commiffioners
merely Hate, that the fcheme was adopted with no
dire& view, and notice it merely as an official irregu-
larity. But the Hon. and Learned Gentleman im-
parts weight and dignity to his argument ; and after
having confulted for this purpole the muniments of
the Hate, he tells the Houle that, it is the duty of
the King to rule according to law, end of his Mini-
Hers to support his dominion by a jolt regard to the
fame law.' This I believe is a pofition which no
Member will be at all inclined to difpnte ; and there-
fore the difplay of eloquence employed for its eluci-
dation, might have been, without any disadvantage,
referved for another occation, where his aflitlance will
be more necellary. But in the energy the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman directed to thele conititutional
dilquititions. he feems 'to have forgotten what has fre-
quently paired in Parliament on the futile& of Navy
Bills, and of the debt laperinduced by them ; for in
far from thcfe laming become matter of complaint,
the deficiency has been fupplied under the particule:
orders and approbation of the Houle. The praCtice
which led to this mode, has alfo efcaped the recollee,
Lion of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. It hed
for its °bled, in a time of danger and exigency, to
raife money for the public defence on terms mere
economical char was berme known ; and lo great
was the benefit from this tefoutce, during the IA
war, that I may confidently Rate it was a faring of
fume millions to the country. But the permanence
of this plan, in a great degree, depended upon the
poneuality with which the Bills were dilcharged—
and the principal fubjed of the difapprobation new
exptelfed, arifes from the endeavours applied to pre
ferve the publiii credit by this rigid poneluelity. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman fuppofes the Ellimatet
of the Navy, in all their details, are laid before the
Honfe. The accounts timer mfeves will thew, that the
cuftom is only to Rate teencrally the number of hands
requited, the wear and tear, the notes, the extraor-
dinaries, and feme few other pet tieuiate. Thefe can
alone give a look and inaderote.e view, even of the
total or aggregate charge ; and the uncertainty v
regard to it has been often enhanced by the neceitte
under which his Majeity has found hinafelf to increare
his means of defence, and by the vatisoion in the
prices of Itore', and of the various articles falling
under the viduelling department. From fuch CAUICS
an excels has often arifen in the naval expenditure.
but not without mideevours on my part to prcveit
its recurrence. Contilteriely with; this defign the Al•
lowance was tailed from 41. to 71. per month, eed
the inconverience was in tome degree a-snide.l in the
laft year ; but this did not preclude the poffilniey of

nonerst

any additional debt being incurred. But from the
direCtion the Hon. and Learned Gentleman gave to
his argument, it is only deferable tbat I fhould re-
pel it lo iar as applies to the augmentation of that
debt without the cadent of Parliament. The debt
then coral,: Of two parts—ill. The arrears. 2d. The
increafe ie the fh of bills.
The praCtice of itTuing Navy Bills is not novel,
it begin about the time of .he Revolution. They
were :Len to be paid, without preference, according
to the priority of their date, but there was no limi. ;1
tatinn in the time of their difcharge. Thus, for 60,
70, or 8o years, Government was not expelled to
pay the hills until it fuited the public convenience to
anfaer them. This plan was abandoned, but not
witl, any view to prevent the exitlence of the debt.—
In the year 1704 an A:1 was paired, by which it was
ordered, that all Inch Bills fliorthd be payable within
le months from the day of their date Dining the
ti n;; war, bills of this defcription had been at
the enormous difcoant of twelve, fourteen, and eigh-
teen per cent. and every principle of public policy
demanded fome alteration to prevent the facrifice.—
By the 17 Gca 111. c. z 6. it was enabled, that all
Navy, Victualling, and Traafport Bills fhall be pay-
able on a day to be named in the Bill, and not later
than three months after the date. But this new re-
gulation WAS for no filch purpnfe as was intimated
by the H Insurable and Learned Gentleman, but to
make the pubic credit relpeCted, and to provi.ie for
the fer vices in a more beneficial manner. Looking to
this fhort hillory, I am aitonithed at the feelings
the Hon. and Learned Gentleman expreffed, and I
am at a lois to conceive what circtimltanee can fug-
gel to his mind the poffibility of the violation of the
conßitutian it thele tranfaftions. But to proceed to
the periods to which he has adverted. From a cattle
which it will be the duty cf the Committee to invef-
tigate, in the autumn of uSoo there was not in the
hands of Government a foffitient rum to difcharge
tittle Navy Bills, without carcroachieg on the funds
provided for the Dock-yards, wages, and other items
for which ready money is AL:aysnecelTary. In this
fituation the holders of Navy Bills were divided into
two claffes, the one of which would fubmit to the re-
newal of the bills, the other which required prompt
payment. To the former, new bills, with the cor-
refponding interefl, were iffued ; to the latter, money
was paid, and the cafh In given was railed by the ne-
gotiation of Navy Bills (a ith thole ivho were dilpof-
ed to take them) far an equal amount. Is this to
be called any infringement on the Brian) Canflitution?
and is it not only a perverfion of terms, but of all the
received modes of jufitreafoning, front fcch premifes
to make this remote inferenne ? The olijeat to which
there rums were applied was bcrra fide the naval ter-
vices which the public fecurity imperioufly demand-
ed. Then the Hon. and Learned Gentleman lays,
the accounts conneCted with thefe affairs were fadi-
titans ; they purported to be one thing, when in fad
and in truth they were another. The correCtnefs
tallith, no doubt, the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
has acquired froM kis prof--Tonal habits, Hill not
have permitted him to advance this without fufficient
grounds, and there he will Rate before the Commit.
tee ; for my part, I mull acknowledge frankly, my
opportunities of official information have not enabled
me to difcover tkefe : to my knowledge, no lift was
&petted, Sir, on your table ; the aggregate amount
was alone Rated. If my views of the fubjeCl fhould
accidentally be jull, I have a right to expeCl„ from
the candour of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman,
that he will tetrae, that his weighty authority may
not be attached to an unfounded allegation. But not
to interrupt the narrative—
" The year ;goo was marked by very peculiar
circum!lances. We recolleet, with pain, the gene-
ral tearcity which prevailed in the efTential articles
ef human lubfilkence, and the calamities which
were endured by a large and meritorious dais of
the community. The neceffary effeet of this was a
prodigious increafe in the expence in all the public
fervices for the rapport of our fleets and our armies.
It the Hon. and Learned Gentleman thotrld be found
not to be intimately converfant with matters not in
the immediate line of his vocation, this, at kali,
was firdiciently a matter of general notoriety to
have atirailed his attention. To this pretling cir.
curnitance mar be added, the magnitude of the
danger with which this nation was threatened, and
the extent of the exertions of a Noble,Lord, then at
the head of the Admiralty, to meet the difficulties of
the State. That this extraordinary vigour in the Ad-
minittration fhould have been effeClual, is a matter
of furpr de, when we refled that the advance in the
price of gores alone was from 401. to loot. per cent.
The country will impartially judge, if, under thefe
eircumlianees, the meafure complained of was not
fully itillifled.
" Then the Hon. and Learned Gentleman enquires,
How came this neceflity to continue from the rear
183 a to rßoz ?' For the tranfaelions in the latter
period I am not refpnnfible, but I am on that account
not the lets anxious to vindicate the proceedings.—
And here I mull fay, the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman has not examined the bufinefs with the
accuracy the Houle might have reafonably expelled.
He contents hinifelf with the infpeCtion of the ge cral
comment, but he has not troubled himfelf to attend
to the dates of the refpeCtive hates in fupport of the
teriaus charge he has made. Had he conde4ended
to do this, he would have difcovcred that the delivery
of Bi'ls terminated as early as March, 18ot, for as
loon as the loan was negotiated it was fufpended.—
In September of the fame year, and until the fucceed•
mg fptirg, the praftice was again reforted to, but at
that time the Preliminaries of' Peace were negotiating.
and the Definitive Treaty was figned in the month
of April, rßcz. Was not the revival of this expe-
dient, ;,, fuck a predicament, jaflifiable ? Does not
every Gentleman perceive the difadvantages under
which a loan mud at that time have been obtained ?
As farm as any arrangements could be made, 'bele
means of fupply wete abandoned, and they have ever
line.: been dircontitmed. The Hon. and Learned
Gentleman did not infift, with much earnefinefs, on
the difference of intereft arifing from the difcaunt on
89 or 9a days. A very few words will therefore be
full.; dent. Either the perfons receiving the bills allow-
ed for this trifling advantage in the bargain they
made with the public ; or it was fo infignificant that
it was overlooked. The extent of the evil was three-
pence anti a halfpenny on each tool. We know, at
lean from the authority of the report, that Mr. Gold
fund, who, it will be admitted, pnffeffes every quali-
fication to make any beneficial difcovery in fuck an

affair, never noticed it, if It ereeped the penetration
of this refperiable Gentleman, with his confirmed
habits of bufinefs, furely it is looking at minutia with
a fort of microfcopic attention for which human pru-
dence is not perfedly prepared.
The next particular to which I (hall advert re-
(peas the fecret fervice. On this head alfo I (hall be
very concise, becaufe I feel it a duty to be fo, whether
I contemplate the good faith which ought to be pre-
ferved with individuals, or the fubflantial interefls of
the public. I may at leaft confidently anticipate, that
any Committee chorea to fcrntinize into this depart.
ment, will be thoanughly perfuaded, that the items
which have invited th much olsfervation have been
properly applied ; and further, that the difclofure of
the fervices would hate been highly improper. I will
likewife aver, that the purpofes in thefe instances were
flridly naval, and with thcfe folemn alTurances, I troll
the }inure will be fully fatisfied.
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman fays,
money for fuch defigna cannot legally be railed, but
out of the Civil Litt. Had he Paid that they cannot
be legally paid but out of the Civil Lill, hislanguage
would have been more intelligible—but we need not
differ about the terms applies to a fubjea with which
the habits of the Honourable and Learned Gentle-
man have not rendered him perfeElly familiar. Does
he mean to argue, that an Admiral or a General
employed on a remote fervice cannot apply money
on fecret duty, to acquire intelligence of the intention,
condition, or force of an enemy ? and will he fay
that the fums In expended will not be extraded from
the pecuniary tefources voted for the navy or army ?
" Then the Stone Expedition, for which funds
were fupplied, it is Paid was known, although a le-
cret fervice, by every waterman from London-bridge
to Wellmintler Hall. If it arrived at the knowledge
of the Honourable and Learned Gentletn..• , whole
feem to have been fo little direded to fuch fob-
jeds, I (hall readily admit that it mutt have attained
no inconsiderable degree of publicity ; but I appre-
hend long before he became acquainted with it, the
projea had terminated, and then its notoriety was of
very little comparative importance. The other fer-
'ice which has been alluded to is of a nature per-
fedly dittinet, it can only be explained with fatety at
a much later period, and I very much doubt if the
Committee will not think it difcreet to confign it to
perpetual obfcurity. With the Stone Expedition the
Honourable and Learned Gentleman may be lefs
likely to quarrel, becaufe it now manifettly appears,
that it was known to, and approved of, by the No-
ble Lord who prefided at the Admiralty when it was
undertaken. Then fur the fum of roo,oool. there
is no doubt it was faithfully and exclusively devoted
to naval fervices. In one refped, no doubt, it is myf-
terious, but it is perfedly clear it was bona Pe ap-
plied to that fervice, and fo it is acknowledged to be
by the Commiffioners of Naval Enquiry. To con
elude then, Sir, I entirely coincide with the Honour-
able and Learned Gentleman, that there fhould be a
Committee for the purpofe of this investigation. To
that body may be confided all the fubjeas adverted
to, excepting the application of the fum of too,ocol.
'kith noticed. The duties of this Committee, I pre.
fume, will not occupy many days, and then a Secret
Committee may immediately fucceed to examine
into what has remained untouched by their prede-
Iceflors. Therefore, all I (hall deem neceffary is to
propofe an amendment, excluding the Tingle item I
have diftirsguifhed from the review of the Committee
propored by the Honourable and Learned Mover of
tae queflion."
Mr. FOX role and faid that he did not difapprove
of the divifion of the matter contained in the Report.
in I i the way propofed by the Right Hon. Gentleman
who had jolt fat down. There was fomething, how-
ever, in the obfervations of the Right Honourable
Gentleman which applied to the courfe of argument
porfued by his Honourable and Learned Friend who
commenced the difcufEon, upon which he thought it
proper to fubmit a few remarks. The Right Hon.
Gentleman expreffed his opinion, that it was unne-
ceffary in the Learned Mover to employ fo much of
his eloquence to imprefs upon the Houle the propri-
ety of enforcing the obfervance of that great confti-
tutional precept, that no part of the public money
should be appropriated without the content of Parlieo
ment. Bt.t it !truck his mind that there was no truth
fo univerfally acknowledged as to render the repeti-
tion of it unneceffary or fuperfluous where the vio.
lation of it was frequent, which happened to be the
cafe with regard to this precept. Without entering
into the fubjeet at prefcnt, or imputing motives to
any let of men, he mull tabferve, that a pradice had
obtained, of late years, of factificing to fuppofed
public convenience the twit facred conflitutional
principles and parliamentary privileges, which prac-
tice threatened much more ferious confequences than
any that had been !fated by the Learned Mover. He
did not mean to fay, however, that this pradice was
as mifchievoos as that which exalted in the reign of
Charles the First, and led to a revolution, becaufe
thofe bills mutt be at length paid by Parliament. But
yet it was not lefs conftitutional that money fhould
not be appropriated without the previous approbation
of Parliament, as that it fhould be levied without its
previous content. In the intlance under conficlera-
tion, the money appeared tta have been railed by what
he mutt call fictitious bills, for they pretended to be
that which they were not. The whole of the tranf-
adion, however, required a good deal of explanation,
particularly in order to know in what manner thofe
Bills were difcharged, 'and therefore hs approved of
the Committee. As to the mode which' prevailed
previous to the insrodudion of the Bill, which limited
the duration of Navy Bdls. he difapproved of that
mode as much as he did of a fimilar mode with re-
gard to the comfit& of the army extramdiataries, and
it was very deferable both upon conftitutional and
economical grounds that fuch mode should be effect
tually prohibited in future. The explanation which
the Right Honourable Gentleman had given of the
manner of paying the bills &red at ninety days, did
not appear to him at all fatisfadory. For although
Mr. Goldfmid, of whom, although he had not the
honour of perfonally knowing him, be, in common
with the world who knew his chara&er, entertained
a good opinion, overlooked the difference that arofe
from the manner of paying thofe bills ; yet the over-
fight'of the Navy Board w,.s trot excufable, particu-
larly becaufe the ovetfight was pointed out to their
attention. Refcaing to the Secret Services alluded
so in the Report, the Hon. Member remarked, that
as to the Corn of 16,00ci. iffued for a particular pun
pofe, it did not appear that that purpofe was deviled

or tinder the controul of the Adn,lialty. The plan'
otiginated with the Treafury, and, he muff fay, that
it was highly culpable in the Treafury to attempt
fuch a plan, without previoufly confitlting the Beard
of Admiralty ; but not lets fo in the Admiralty to
fanelion fuch a plan afterwards, if k did not meet its
approbation. This la II remark would of courfe ap-
ply, if, upon a full invetligation it *mold appear, that
the Noble Lord then at the head of the Admiralty,
gave his fupport to a projeti, which, it, his own opi-
nion, was not likely to be efficient. There r:•as an
obfervation which, although but collateral to the
queflion before the Honfe, he could not forbear to
make ; and it was this, that in the expenditure of the
16,0001. the order did not feem to have been flrialy
complied with, which prefcribed that a regular corn.
munication (hould have been had with the Admiral-
ty, previous to fuch expenditure. The Honourable
Gentleman concluded with expreffing his hope that
the propofed Inquiry would lead to the effablithment
of meafures calculated to guard againft the factifice
of the conflitutional praeice to any purpofe of pub-
lic convenience, as far as Inch guard was pratlicable,
as far as the forefight of the Legiflature could pro•
vide for public exigency, and thus reffrid that difcre-
tionary power in Miniffers, with regard to the expen-
diture of the public money, which was too liable to be
abufed.

Sir A. HAMMOND alledged that Lord Hobart
told him that Earl St. Vincent had given his entire
confent to the fecret fervice alluded to by the Hon.
Gentleman, or that he (Sir A. H.) would have felt
himfelf guilty of a mifdemeannr in undertaking the
condo& of it.
,The Hon. Baronet added, that he,
in all cafes, as was his duty, communicated with Earl
St. Vincent upon naval affairs, unlefs when the
Noble Earl's abfence from town, which was very fre-
quent, rendered Inch communication inripofsble. The
Hon. Baronet vindicated the manner of paying of
the Navy Bills for 90 days, and contended that it was
in a great meafure owing to the iffue of the Bills com-
plained of by the Hon. Mover, that the credit of
Navy Bills was maintained.---If that expedient were
not retorted to, he really believed that the credit of
the Navy would have relapfed into the dilemma in
which it was involve/ previous to the year 1797,
when the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Pitt) brought
in the Bill which had been referred to, and which li-
mited the duration of llavy Bills to the period of
15 months. Antecedent to that, he could allure the
Houle that Navy Bills, againit the currency of which
all 'Change Alley Teemed to he combined, were at a
difcount of 15 per cent.—The year immedittely fob-
fcquent to the there w a laving to the public
upon the fun: of leven millions iflucd for NavPfer.
vices, of little leis than one million, and a propor-
tionate laving accrued to the public on each fucceed.
ing year. To preferve that credit which was elfen.
tially ncceffary to fecure this laving, the Bills alluded
to in the Report on 0e table were iffued, and he had
little doubt that the fulled examination would thew
that iffue to be perfeetly juflifiable.
The quellion being called for, the amendment was
agreed to ; and then the whole motion was agreed
to as follows :

1, That the whole of the Eleventh Report be referred to a Select
Committee, except Go far as relates to the it of toooool. for Se-
cret Services, to confider the matter thereof, and to report the
fame, with their opinion, to the Houle."
It was then ordered that the Committee Would
confta of twenty-one Members, and that they should
be chnfas by ballot.
Mr. HUSRISSON brought up a Bill fur the •better Regulating
and Auditing the Public Accounts, which was read a firß time,
and ordered to be read a fecund time to•raorrow.
The hint Excite Licence Bill was air° read a fiat time, and or-
dered to be read a fecond time to morrow.
Mr. VANSITTART poitponcd his Motion relative to the
Dublin Police, which Rood for this day, till to-morrow.
The kith Malt Bill was read a fecond time, and ordered to be
committed to-morrow.
The London Wet Docks Rill was read a third time, and pad.
The Prize Bill, which had been ordered to be committed to

morrow, was further pollponed rill Tuefday next.
Mr. ALEXANDER brought up the Report of the Committee
of Supply, which was read, and a Bill ordered to be prepared.
The hioufe refolved itfclf Into a Committee upon the Null-Horfc
Farming Duty Aet, and the Chairman was initrudled to move
for leave to bring in a Bill, which was accordingly done, and the
BiU ortirred to be preparjd.
Adjourned at half pall nine o'clock.