Star.
London, England, 1823-04-23 00:00:00

REFORM.

Mr.PEEIIA M presented a Petition of the County
of Lincoln in favour of Reform.

Mr. ASHTON SMITH said he was not present at
this Meeting, but still he was convinced, from the in-
formation he bad received, that there were not 500

persons .present. at this, which' was ,called a County'
Meeting, and the majority of those were of-a, certain
description, as regarded politics, very different from
the great majority of the county.
Sir R. HERON did not know from whom the Hon.
Member had his information, but he would advise
him, whoever they were, not to place any reliance on
them again. He could assure the Hon. Gentleman
that at no Meeting which had taken place in the
county of Lincoln for the last 30 years, had he seen
a Meeting more respectable or more numerously at-
tended. As to Radicals,, he did not believe there
were 20 Radicals present (Hear.) For when the Ra-
dical amendment was proposed, not 20. hands were
held up for it. He was surprised to hear the Hon.
Member say, that there was not a majority of the
Meeting in favour of Reform. If it was not so, and
if the majority of the county were not in. favour of
Reform, why did not those who were against it at-
tend this Meeting, and oppose the Petition? Indeed
he was not certain they did not; for, on looking into
the Reading-room, he saw collected there a larger
collection of big-wigs, shovel, hats, and short petti-
coats (laughter)--than he had ever seen assembled on
any other occasion, except, indeed, a visitation din-
ner (general laughter.)
Mr. CHAPLIN said, he was convinced, not-
withstanding what the Honourable Baronet had said,
that there were not, of all descriptions, one thousand
persons assembled at this Meeting.
Colonel JOHNSON avowed himself a Radical,
however unpalatable the term might be in that House.
He had seconded the Amendment of Major Cart-
wright, and was satisfied that the great majority of
the people of England, as well as of the county of
Lincoln, were in favour of Reform.—The Petition
was then brought up and read.
Mr. A. SMITH said, he must repeat his belief as
to the character of this Meeting. On the day of the
Meeting, the streets were paraded by the Radicals.
There never was a greater jirrce than this Meeting
presented.—The Petition was ordered to be printed.
Lord MILTON said, he now had to present to the
House a similar Petition from the County which he
had the honoueto represent. He assured his Hon.
Friend opposite (Mr. A. Smith), that had he been
present at the Meeting at which this Petition was car-
ried, he would not have termed it a farce. Whether
he considered the numbers present, the rank and cha-
racter of many,. and the orderly conduct of all, it was
far, indeed, from having any resemblance to a farce
(Mar, hear). The Petition, he might assert, was
unanimously carried, and the persons assembled were
at least ten times as numerous as at Lincoln.—Gene-
rally it might be stated, that at least among the mid-
dling and inferior classes, great uniformity of opinion
prevailed upon this question. He would observe in
the outset, that when 16 years ago a contest took
place for the county, every part of Yorkshire, nay,
every corner of the Metropolis, was ransacked for
.voters, and 23,070 came to the poll. To this Petition
no less than 17,083 names were affixed—at the lowest
computation forming two-thirds of the freeholders of
Yorkshire. The utmost pains had been' taken to ex-
clude the names of persons who were not bona fide
freeholders, and he did not believe, having gone
over the whole of them, that there were fifty to-
which an exception could be reasonably made.-1
One or two had signed as trustees, a few more as
freeholders of the town and county of Hull, and of
the town and county of York, who ought properly
not to have- been.included, and he believed that the,
names of five females would be found upon the Pe-
tition Strictly, perhaps, they were out of their place,
although, according to the plan of Reform of Major
Cartwright, they would be entitled to vote. With
regard to the opinions of the Petitioners, he entirely
concurred in them. He had, indeed, formerly, once''
or twice, voted against Reform, but the conduct of
l
the House of Commons had converted him to the
persuasion that a Reform was absolutely necessary—
(Hear, hear).—ln this conversion he was not sin-
grilar : the same change had taken place in the opi-
nions of a man of most calm and sober judgment—
the Hon. Member for Thetford (Mr. R. Colborne).
The same remark would apply to the Noble Member
for Salisbury (Lord Folkstone), a man of inflexible
political• integrity, though in some of his notions
eccentric. A similar conversion had occurred in the
case of an Hon. and Noble relation, one of the Mem-
bers for the county of Nottingham (Lord W.Bentinck).
The Petitioners did not point out any particular'
course with respect to Reform upon which they
wished the House to proceed; and he (Lord Milton)
approved of their silence upon that head. The House
would do well to attend to opinions which were
backed by the authority of more than 17,000 names
—that list embodying, independent of respectable
Ifreeholders, absolutely 'a majority of the aristocratic
interest of the County of York. It had been too much
the custom to treat the people of England as incapa-
ble of truly appreciating the present state of Parlia-
mentary Representation. He thought that the people
were well capable of distinguishing between that
conduct which was regulated by a constitutional
regard to their interest, and that which proceeded
upon no other principle than a uniform submission
to the pleasure of the Crown. The Noble Lord, after
declaring as his fixed. opinion, that the House had
long ceased to do its duty faithfully as a Represen-
tative of the Commons of England, sat down by
moving that the Petition should be brought up.
Mr. STUART WORTLEY, although he willingly
bore testimony to the excellent order of the Yorkshire
Meeting, and to the high respectability of the names
affixed to the Petition, yet dissented entirely from the
opinions which that Petition expreised.
Mr. RIDLEY COLBORNE thought that the mo-
dern practice of publishing Parliamentary Debates,
by subjecting public men to the influence of public
opinion, had done much towards a practical reform
in the House of Commons.

The Petition was then brotight up and read. It
was 380 feet in length ; and the unrolling it (to read)
occupied the Clerk of the House seven minutes.
Mr. SYKES (on the motion for printing) reminded
the House that the signatures to the Petition had been
fairly and openly obtained, at a time when, from the
general cheapness of provisions, there was little in-
citement to temporary discontent among the People.
Mr. CHALONER opposed the Petition and the
principle of Parliamentary Reform. generally.—The
Petition was then ordered to be printed.
Lord STANLEY presented a Petition from the Chamber of
Commerce, Manchester, praying that the Urion Duties 'Vl:lit
not be repcakd.—Read and ordered to be panted.

THE LATE NIGOCIATICNI
Mr. CANNING moved that an
sewed to his Majesty for the prods
Papers relative to the late negociatini
Mr. WARRE wished to know
Treaty entered into at Verona bets
Powers, by which they agreed to
France arAinst Spain ?
Mr. CANNING said, that to his
to the best of his belief, no such treat
cf by the Hon. Gentleman had been
Whether any obligation had been c
might be urged as equivalent to a tre;
question; but no such treaty, to hi!
belief, had been signed. Neither w
any of the cases in the contemplati
' had been promised to France, bad a!
SLAVE TRADE.
fr
Lord PALNIERSTON presented
the University of Cambridge, prayint
would be pleased to adopt such meAsi
the Slave Trade, as would prevent
portation of Slaves into our Colonies
rate as far as possible the situation of
slavery continued to exist.
Mr. BROUGHAM was happy tIL
of Cambridge had advocated the pi
mnnity and justice, and had no dot
' would have that weight due to the
illustrious a body.
Mr. BERNAL, as a Member of thi
joked at this manifestation of its opi
ject of the Slave Trade.
The Petition was then read and 1;
Mr. CANNING moved that the House,
jburn to Thursday.—Motion agreed to.
ROMAN CATHOLICS.'
General ARCHDALL presented
the inhabitants of Inniskillen, against
cessions to the Catholics.

Colonel TRENCH said, he held
number of affidavits, to estalslish tl
had stated on a preceding night, th
of the Catholic priesthood frequently i
the Dublin Election ; that they were
and harangued the people; and that
the Election they paraded the streen
all those who did not vote according
ticms, eternal damnation—(Hear,
Some of the Priests can ied their part
as even to threaten persons with c:
whilst at the altar on their knees.
Mr. S. RICE would put the House
one fact, which would considerably
of the Hon. Member's statement.
Dublin had not long since been present
election, which contained the same ;
the result was that the petitioners '
into the proper recognizances, and
abandoned (Cheers.) He would no,
in reference to a delusion which h:
respecting the late division on the qt
lic claims. It had been stated to be
tholic Claims; whereas some of tip
the Catholics were to be found "
The enemies of the Catholics were rr
in the minority upon that question.
Colonel WHITE said, he had beep
diffidence alone from contradicting ."
the Petition presented a few nights
nourable Member for Somersetsli.
Lethbridge). Those allegations he
equivocally declared to be groundless
denied that the Catholic clergy had '
the hustings, or had in, any other
any improper interference in the elect
county. His opponent was in the
and had himself, as well as hii fami
the Catholics—(Hear, hear).—He (CI
in favour of Catholic Emancipation,
was enough to attach the Catholics
(Hear, hear, hear!)—Since the Petitit
he had been in Ireland, and had Lear'
tholic Priest had made any harangt
tings. As to the menace of excommt
one who knew Ireland must know th;
had not the power of spiritual ezcomt
sides, such a threat would have been
was sure of their support without an,
—(Hear, and laughter).—Nobody we
by such allegations except those who,
be undeceived—(Hear, hear).
Mr. C. H. HUTCHINSON contendeek
it was improper that the clergy of L
permitted to interfere in elections, yet,
to England and Wales, and saw the
and indefatigable exertions of the Prat
in elections, he thought that they mil
the excuse of example—(Cheers).
Mr. V. FITZGERALD objected
prolongation of the discussion.
Mr. GRATTAN said, that he knew
tionable authority, that the Catholic .
Troy, had given the niost decided instructions
the clergy of the diocese of Dublin not
the elkction.

Sir T. LETHBRIDGE said, that
presented the Petition of Sir Harcourt
not pledged himself for the truth of
allegations. There was; however,
prayer worthy of the notice of the House,
where he requested to be called to
House, and to be heard in support of ,
Sir J. NEWPORT said, that the allegations
Pitition of Sir Harcourt Lees were precis'
which had been embodied in the Dub'.
had been afterwards abandoned.

' Mr. G. R. DAWSON said that he
toes from his relatives, who had taken
Dublin election, and whose efforts
pletely paralyzed by the interference
not fair, manly, and honourable. interference,
interference the most undue and cc, le•
would not say that they had threatened
cation at the altar, but they had used
quite as indefensible. The Dublin
been afraid to push their allegations
cause the witnesses, who were all 1/4
afraid of the peitalties which the clergy'
against them.
Colonel WHITE, in explanation,
all the question was, which assertion
of the lion. Member for Cad:bridge (I
or hi.; ? "He asserts one thing,
positc.. Li t him bring his proofs; I
2,17. M A ICCI N :aid, that it was

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tube their Pet;; 1,-.' the witnesse
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no evidence
:he University, . mot call the
zinion on the (Hear). Thi
davits, stati
laid on the tat& ' Clergy had I
tsitleanfyaciatr:hielriccholio 1
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fore an Elect
.- .
to be regard
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penal ties of
Lhae a great man the makers c
a The House
i
d il his bandit i the Hon. Me
y interfered durisi
eon the hosting had shrunk f
it the night bef ' z.o opportuni
having
tell:die:ger
iitlao:det I
ji
ts, denouncing Colonel T
gto their sugg reason why
and laeg/aer
artizanship so f .
se in possessioon(
qualify the font - against the C
A petition hoe managh ; Ire
tsented againsethe
to allegation, aid county, whic
s had not entente table, and to
venish, and
I the charge WV CONDUCT OF l
ow say somethizij
had gone abrox . Sir IRAN
luestion of Catho. •
se against the Ce• ' L:-4,,,;(1,g mit
he best friends ch rner night, re
in that majoritr.l
.. su.nice of the
N.; ho heard hi
rather to be found • occasions hos
, .. to touch on a
been prevented 5, the misfortnn
the ailegatioils.' peculiar di tEc
since by the 11- interest could
tire (Sir .., tated feeling ;
to now most tt, to witness this
ess and false. H out some allei
d been present , to ameliot ate
ray been guilty .. interwoven sit
lection for Debi : Empire. It 1
e Orange interest, was that of a
lily, voted agaion . bleaking out,
3010nel White)" , * teal hostility.
n, and that aloe,. consideration
sto his support— party in Irela
ion was presented of palliation,.
earnt that noel- get the peace
;ue from Melon. person who ss
munication, evol oblivion over
that a Clergymms But he loo• ke
rnmunication; I* be appreltensi
:en useless, as be alarm of an it
any such resoarce the dread of
would be deceived whistle in the
iao did not wish to (Hear). None
from which 11
tided, that though wiry into the
Ireland should be the subject w
t, alien belnoked last under the
the vast inltaimoi, able Member
Protestant clovr uitlz an eloqt
(gilt plead alea II to the House,
beneficial effe
el to any further riety of topics
of passing 01
mew from UV& guage of par
: ArcbbishoPe Dr. tiality on one
Instructions to all was regarded
)nroectitseolyin.terk:aslio
iotnzfodriimanigatipponearr:
at when be 114 and the High
art Lees, be lad port the moti
tf the Petiticellii mash
pot:ol::lintrei,r:
louse, which sole olnmon—ror,
) the bar of the
tppeeinrpoeudfifi:liranit
of his assertiour Perly exercise
the Right Hot
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weref obstructe
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justice,
idedly of opi
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''CC (Colonel Trench) ' against t
he tout ,e wh
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sistent witit his Hon. Friend's known liberality, to
bring forward allegations against the Catholics, after
their claims had been frustrated, and when they had
no opportunity for reply.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, that it was evident
the House wa, placed in a painful state of uncertainty
with regard t,, the contradictory statements of two
Ron. 'Members, each of whom equally believed what
he stated, and each of whom was entitled to the be-
lief of the House. But there were other ch cum-
eurnstances which would enable the house to decide
the question without abstracting anything from the
authority of either Hon. Member. One party, whose
cause had been espoused by the Hon. Member for
Cambridge, had already made the same charge ;
an opportunity for proving the charge had been
offered ; but they had shrunk from the trial, and
abandoned their allegations—(Hcar, hcar).—Accord-
Lig to all the rules of evidence, the House was bound
to presume against the party which advanced accu-
sations, and abandoned them when the opportunity
for establishing them was presented---( Hear, hear).
Now, the opposite party had had no such opportunity
afforded; they had made no complaints, but merely
called on their accusers to substantiate their allega-
tions by proof. The Hon. Member for Derry (Mr.
Dawson) had said there could be no evidence, because
the witnesses were Catholics, and were in terror of
their Priests. This was an admission that there was
no evidence at all in favour of the accusation. Why
not call the witnesses before the Election Committee?
(Hear). The Hon. Member for Cambridge held affi-
davits, stating that the conduct of the Catholic
Clergy had been indecent and criminal ; why had not
the makers of those affidavits likewke been called be-
fore an Electirn Committee? These affidavits were
to be regarded with a very jealous eye. Th • makers
were exposed to no c; oss-examination, su!;ject to no
penalties of law, and chargeable with no perjury.__
The House would perceive, therefore, that although
the Hon. Members stood on an etrality as to the cre-
dit due to their assertions, yet the pantie; themselve.
were 11. ced on very different ground The on;
lnving had all opportunities to prove their charges,
ltad shrunk fro:n the trial ; and the other, havinq had
I.ooppertm:i:ies, had called lot inquity—(Clieers).
Colonel TRENCH, in explanation, said, that the
reason why the petitioners had not gone into the
rwff of their allegations was, that even if true, the
election would nut have been ii.vrlidatt:d.

Ti:e Petition was then ordered to lie o the table,
and be printed.

General ARCHDALL then presented Petitions
against the Catholic claims from the county of Fer-
managh; from the parishes of Ohone (a laugh), De-
tenish, and others from other parishes of the same
county, which were respectively ordered to lie on the
table, and to be printed.
CONDUCT OF I'HE HIGH SHERIFF OF DLBLIN AND TIIE
GRAND JUItY.

Sir FR ANCIS BURDETT said, he rose in pur-
sa tnce of the notice which he had given of a motion
E!owing out of the discussion of a question of a for-
mer night, relative to the late trials in Dublin. All
v:ho heard him must have witnessed on various other
occasions how unpleasant and even dangerous it was
to touch on any of the circumstances connected with
the misfortmei of Ireland. It was in such a state of
peru:iar difficulty that no question really affecting its
interest could b.: discussed without giving rise to irri-
tated feelin7 ; but at the same time that it was painful
to witness this, it was also the duty of the House to find
clt some allevia;ion for the evils of that country, and
to amelior ate its condition, which was so intimately
isterwmen with the welfare and happine.s of the
Umpire. It was time to put an end to a state, which
vas that of a smothered civil war (Hear, hear, hear),
Inaking out, as was now the case, into acts of mu-
tool hostility. If he bl:lieved that bringing under the
consiueration of the House any of the transactions of
party in Ireland would, instead of having the effect
tif palliation, tend to irritate the feelings and endan-
ger the pe.rce of the country, he should be the last
person who would not be desirous to draw the veil of
oblivion over every past event in the sister kingdom.
But he looked upon it as childish, idle, and vain, to
be apprelensive of discussing L ish questious through
alarm of an increase of party exasperation. It was like
the dread of a superstitious pet son who would not
whistle in the storm for fear of increasing the wind—
(Hear). None could doubt that events had'taken place,
nom which flowed the necessity of a full and free- M-
elt into the state of that unhappy country. When
te subject with which Isis motion was connected was
last rimier the discussion of the House, the Honour-
Ole Member for Armagh, who had introduced it
sits an eloquence which gave so much gratification
to the House, and which he hoped would produce a
beneficial effect to his country, had embraced a va-
riety of topics, which he (Sir F. Burdett) was desirous
of passing over. He wished not to speak the lan-
guage of party, or to deal out any measure of par-
tiality on one side or the other.. He knew the issue
vas regarded in the light of a trial between the con-
tending parties, at the head of which were two high
axial persons--the Attorney-General for Ireland,
and the High Sheriff. lie had been inclined to sup-
pat the motion of the Honourable Member for Ar-
-114h; but when he heard the statement of the At-'
temey-General, he must confess that it converted his
opinion—for, if ever there was an occasion when the
Power of filing an ex officio information could be pro-
perly exercised, it was in that instance—(Hear).—He
could not, therefore, concur in a vote of censure on
the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman. The ex officio
information in that case was used in a novel and unac-
customed manner, he would admit ; but it was exer-
e'sed to resist oppression against the People—Weer).
tllat power, which had been too often used against
Popular rights, was then exerted for their protec-
-I°N an,l the more he considered the merits of the
"lotion of the Hon. Member for Armagh, the less
:Neight he saw in his charge. The power of the At-
-011 General had been exercised, but it was in the
least objectionable manner, as he first preferred an
iindictment to the Grand Jury ; and it was only when
se found all the ordinary modes of obtaining justice
.were Obstructed, that he had recourse to the ex officio
information; and, on reflection, lie was so far from
calling that oppression, he wished every Attorney
General would follow the example. He was de;
idedly of opinion that there ought to be no prep-
ice against the Right Honourable Gentleman for
.e course whiels he adopted. Ile had only filed
" ." gllicio information on account of a refusal
!"slice, and under the Imperative circumstances

of this peculiar case, which were sufficient to ex-
culpate him from all ground of a vote of censure.
The present motion he would not have brought for-
ward, were it not for the statements of the Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Plunkett) with reference to the con-
duct of the High Sheriff. As those statements had
11 been met by a direct negative, as they were repre-
sented by the parties concerned to have been made
incorrectly, it was impossible that any good could
arise from the course formerly recommended by an
Honourable Member opposite, who said lie would
give neither party a triumph by going into inquiry.
That would be doing justice to neither party, but de-
nying it to all. It would not be doing justice to the
Noble Person at the head of the Irish Government or
to the Attorney-General for Leland, if they had voted
on the question the other night without farther in-
formation. Ile felt justified, for those reasons, in
saying that the Learned Gentleman had not been
handsomely treated by the Ilenourahle Gentlemen
about him, who had abandoned him to his own exer-
tions, and who had, by the amendment proposed
by them, left the question in a state quite unsatis-
factory and incompatible with the demands of justice.
He had no idea in what manner the motion with
which lie intended to conclude could be resisted. He
felt confident the Right Hon. and Learned Gentleman
himself would not resist it ; nor could he imagine
how any party could oppose it—(Hear, hear). He
should therefore conclude by moving—" That the
statement made by the Right Hon. the Attorney.
General for Ireland in his place on Tuesday the Is:h
day of Apt it inst. respecting the proceedings that had
taken place on the trial of Forbes,. Handwich, and
Graham, in the City of Dublin, rendered it incum-
bent on that House to institute an inquiry into the
conduct of the Sheriff of Dublin on that occasion."
Mr. PLUNKETT rose, anCessured the Hon. Ba-
ronet, that he did not mean to4oppose it, though at
the same time he did not think the question stood pre-
cisely on the footing on which he had put it. The
question was not whether his (Mr. Plunkett's) con-
duct was oppressive or unjust, but whether he had
acted wrong in the exercise of his discretion with re-
spect to it ? A public functionary would be miser able
if lie were to be cenaired for the exercise of his dis-
cretion whenever it might not agree with particular
interests. It would be for the House to consider if
there had been on his part a severe exercise of the dis-
cretion he possessed in this case—whether he was in-
fluenced by any undue motive ? He certainly thought,•
from the arguments of the lion. Baronet, that, in his
mind at least, he should stand absolved from any
such imputation, even if he had not made any state-
ment explanatory of his conduct. He had not come
before the House as an accuser, being himself the
party accused ; all he had done was to state the
grounds upon which he had exercised his discretion
under the arduous circumstances in which he was
placed. It was only in his own justification that he
had stated facts, involving the conduct of a responsi-
ble Officer of the Crown. If in his conscience he
felt satisfied that the facts in question were true, was
he not bound to pursue the case to the utmost, and
see that the. voice of justice was not stifled ?
From the time the transaction took place, his suspi-
cions were not removed, but strengthened—(Hear,
hear).-1-le now declared before the House, that in
his conscience he believed the Sheriff a proper subject
for prosecution fur his conduct, and unless the mea-
sure was taken out of his hands by the House, lie
would certainly institute a prosecution, the object
of which would be to attain the ends of justice in
the case. Here he must observe, that he meant to
proceed by ex-ecio information—for as to the Grand
Jury of the City of Dublin finding a Bill against
Sheriff Thorpe, after what had already occurred, it
would be quite useless to expect it. He intended to
apply to the Court of King's Bench to have the case
tried at Bar, and that the venue should come from
an adjoining county—( Hear, hear).—The Sheriff
would thus have an opportunity of justice being done
him. But if on the other hind the House should
sanction the inquiry, he should offer no opposition to
it, not feeling himself called upon to interfere on
either side. He thought it would be gross injustice
if the Sheriff had not, one way or other, the fair'
means of clearing up his conduct.
Mr. DENMAN was one of those who did not think
'that the Right Honourable awl Learned Gentleman
was exculpated by his defence, even if he could prove
his assertions by evidence. When the Right Hon.
and Learned Gentleman became acquainted with the
way in which the Grand Jury had been impanelled,
he ought to have taken the earliest opportunity of
vindicating justice in so important a point, instead of
prosecuting half a dozen journeymen carpenters ; and
not to have allowed the matter to sleep, until he
found it convenient to introduce it into his defence.
The High Sheriff would be hardly dealt with if, after
what had passed, his conduct should not be fully in-
vestigated. He denied that this was a party question.
It was one of much more general importance. When
he heard of the censure to which the Grand Jury of
Dublin had 'subjected themselves, by throwing out
the Bill, he could not forget that no censure followed
a similar act of the Grand Jury of Lancaster, when
they threw out bills preferred before them against the
actors in that sanguinary transaction at Manchester,
in which hundreds of people, peaceably assembled,
had been cut and trampled to death. For his part,
however, he should prefer the decision of the worst
Grand Jury to that of the best Attorney-General. A
Grand Jury might be impartial and an Attorney-
General must, ex necessitate, be a party man. If such
abuses existed as were stated, it was not for the
Courts below, but it was for the House of Commons
to skew the people of Ireland that they were ready to
afford them that protection which was their due.
Mr. BANKES condemned the conduct of the At-
torney-General for Ireland, but he did not think that
there could be conveniently instituted an inquiry at
the Bar of that House.

Lord MILTON was of opinion that if there was a
case in which the Right Honourable Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland could properly exercise his power of
ex officio informations, it was in the case which he had
made tut against the High Sheriff; but at the same,
time it appeared to him that substantial justice could
not be done unless the Sheriff of Dublin were allowed
to defend himself at the bar of that House.
Mr. BROWNLOW hoped that the unanimous sen-1
timent of that House would be to inquire into the.
conduct of the Sheriff of Dublin, and it as guilty as!
he (Mr. Brownlow) believed he was innocent,' that he
might draw down upon his head the censure of that,

House ; and that that !louse might destroy root and
branch that bad system out of which have grown
such monstrous abuses. The Right Honourable Gen-
tleman had told the House in plain language that the
Sheriff of Dublin conspired to stop the,stream of jus-
tice, or worse, to turn it aside to his own base paltry
party purposes. Such a chail.,,e having been made,
the House owed it to justice and to the interests of
Ireland not to stop short. If such enormous abuses
—such terrible grievances were found to exist, it was
time that they should be removed. The Honourable
Gentleman did not however agree in the assertion that
such abuses existed, but entered into a long sta.ement
of circumstances connected with the riot at the Dublin
Theatre, with the view of shewing that it had been
grossly exaggerated, and the conduct of the Grand
Jury in ignoring the bills most unnecessarily ini-
ptignei. In conclusion, the HolloHiable Alembei
alluded to the oppressive effect which an e.r officio in-
formation must necessarily have upon the interests of
NlE.Thurpe, who, though acquitted, must still bear the
.expense as well as the disgrace of such a proceeding.
Mr. GOULBURN opposed the motion of the Ilonourable
Baronet, because an Inquiry in that House did not admit of the
proving or disproving any allegations on oath. But there was a
still stronger ground against this proceeding: it was that the
I louse ought not to abdicate its higher powers by taking up one
which belonged to the other tribunals of the country. Ile begged
to warn the house too of the practical effect in Ireland which
such an inquiry as this would have. The people of Ireland would
have doled out to them from day to day pieces cf evidence re-
specting the Sheriff, exciting angry feelings among them, and at
last te,minating without any purpose being answered by that
proceeding.

Colonel RRY said, the accused partiet were now in Lon li
-
don ; they prayed for an inquiry, and were ready to .meet any
charges that might be brought against them. Would the House
then, he asked, deny them the justice which they calle.l for?
He (Colonel Barry) bad asked'the Right Honourable Gentleman
if he intended to take any ulterior proceedings against the parties
in queries'', and the answer was, that he would take no proceed-
ings unless ordered to do so by the House.—( Loud cries of hear.)
Mr. PLUNK ETT.—The Honourable Gentleman asked me
if it was my intention to make any motion for an inquiry? and
I answered, that I did not intend to move anything ; but would
obey any order the House should give me.
Colonel BA RRY.—I asked the Right Honourable Gentle.
man it' he meant to take any ulterior,proceeding ; and he said he
would not, unless the House ordered him.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT said, he should support the motion
for inquiry : the agitated state of the country made such inquiry
necessary; and the longer it was delayed the longer would the
disorders of Ireland be perpetuated. It was doubly necessary
to have the inquiry here, because the conttoul over public opi-
nion would be rendered more efficacious, and it was here they
were most likely to obtain substantial justice ; therefore he
should give his hearty concurrence to the proposition of the
Right Honourable Baronet. If the Attorney-General of Ire-
land declined taking any step, it was an unworthy compromise
with a party( Hear, hear)—and if he neglected his duty, he
hoped the llouse would take care to peforns theirs.
Mr. S. RICE supported the motion.
Mr. PEEL implored the House to throw aside all party feel-
ing, and adhere to the practice which was founded in equity and
good sense. He would appeal to them to say whether the argu-
ments employed to establish the preference of an inquiry at that
Bar, were such as ought to satisfy impartial minds. In a Court
they would have the advantage of the -solemn obligation of an
oath, which could not be administered at their bar. It was a
mistake to say that the Courts were only capable of deciding in
civil cases; for no public functionary, however high, was above
their jurisdiction. He remembered one case in which the House
of Commons thought proper to adopt an inquiry, and they must
all of them recollect that it was found necessary to postpone
it from time to time, in order to wait for evidence. But
suppose they were to direct a prosecution, how could they
apportion the punishment? His Right Hon. Friend ( Mr. Plunkett)
had addressed a letter to the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
stating, that in the exercise of his own. discretion he might feel
it expedient to file informations e.egificio against the Sheriff. It
was uot, however, competent to him to decide on that question
until the motion of the Hon. Member fur Armagh was (leaded.
That being now done, his Right Honourable Friend had'cle-
dared himself ready to file the informations. If they came
to a decision that the High Sheriff should take his trial, they were
bound to send him to it without exciting any prejudice to his
disadvantage by a previous decision in Parliament.
11r. TIERNEY said, that if he could look at the question in
the same way in which the Right Honourable Gerftleman con-
sidered it, as a mere contest whether the High Sheriff should he
tried in a Court of Law or at the Bar of that House, he might
concur with him in the ct nclusion to which he came ; but lie
could not help regarding it as much more extensive in its nature
and important in its result. He looked upon it as one in all its
bearings of more politic value than any question of Irish interest
brought forward since the Union—(Hear).—ln Ireland there
appeared a new Administration with a bond of union (admitted
at one side, but denied at the other), which was to be impartial
justice—(Hear).—Here then was the source of the whole flame.
If he were an Orangeman (he meant no disrespect to that body)
but if be were, he would naturally feel great alarm, and say,
here is one half of the Cabinet coming over to tell me to cry—
" No Popery," and here is the other half ready to prosecute me
if I do—(liear, and laughter).—Under that state of things the
Lord Lieutenant goes to the play, and an outrage is committed.
The Attorney-General commences legal proceedings. Ile goes
to the Grand Jury and fails: he units to the Petty Jury and fails ;
and at last he is put on his trial himself!—(Hear, and a laugh.)
The Right Hon. Gentleman had said that the Sheriff was on
his trial, but the Attorney-General was on his trial also. In
fact, it was not easy to know who the defendant should be, and
it afforded but a bad remedy to say that the Sheriff should be
prosecuted by the very person who had attacked him —( Hear).
They put the Attorney-General on the back of the Sheriff, and
would probably put the Shuriff on the back of the Attorney-Ge-
neraL They might suppose the Sheriff to ask the Atto ry-General,
" Well, have 'you been tried?" The Attorney-General would say
" yes." " And were you acquitted?" " No; but I was told that
I may convict you." The office of Attorney-General must sink in
dignity by going into Court liable to the animadversions which a
case must expose him to. It was too much to say, that this was
done to tranquillize the Irish mind. The way to accomplish that
object war to shew them that they should have justice here.—
But suppose the Sheriff were convicted in the Courts in Ireland,
one person would be punished while the mischief remained un-
touched. It was asked, would they interfere with the Grand
Jury ? 07 tonne they would take up the whole question, and
not be deterred by any prospect of delay from doing their duty.
Every man must feel a wish that Ireland could be tranquillizea.
Did the Government wish to wash their hands of them? Ile
had heard that the Insurrection Act was to be renewed. They
had Insurrection Acts and Martial Law at their command, and
were willing to try ev et ything, to check the discontents, but doing
justice. His conviction was, that instead of being an exception,
this was the very case in which Parliament ought to interfere, and.
that it must suffer in its own character if it omitted to adopt
that interference in the only way that could render it effectual.
Mr. CANNING said, the Right Honourable Gentleman had
indulged in topics wide of tfie question. The object of the mo.
tion was, to institute an inquiry into the eonduct of the Sheriff
of Dublin; but the Right Honourable Gentleman said, going
into the inquiry would bring the whole state of Ir.land before
the House; the Right Honourable Gentleman must see that
either the motion should be enlarged to meet his speech, or his
speech should be very.much narrowed to be made to apply to the
motion. The speech of the Honourable Baronet who made the
motion was marked with a clearness and temper that did him
honour; and he (Mr. Canning) agreed with him more than with
any one who had spoken on the same side of the House, or than
some who had spoken on his own (Mr. Canning's) side. Indeed
he agreed with it all, except i part that he could not be expected
to agree with—that which contained an accusation of himself
and his Colleagues—(A laugh). lie perfectly agreed with the Wm.
Baronet that the Attorney-General of Ireland stood pure and.
unsullied, and he should have voted for his acquittal on his
speech the other night, before he had made his statements of the
conduct of the Sheriff and Grand Jury ; but, after those state.
ments were made, he hesitated respecting the vote he should give;
because, although perfectly ready to acquit the Attorney-General
on the met R&M' his case, he was not prepared to condemn others.
He therefore gave a vote which, white it acquitted the Attorney-
General, did not inculpate those he had accused. The Attorney- '
General was acquitted on the general grounds that be had acted i

••.•• , . •,
' on Information on curb; which he believed, but his belief of it
was not AbOicient to in .ke the House act es if they also believed
it, but made it perfectly proper that the Attorftey-General
should put the matter in • course of so!ten inquiry, whirl.
his office gave him the power to doi, but which the House
could tot with propriety dn. as they were precluded front
examining witnesses upon ectli, and the evidence nainst the
Sheriff was already sworn, while the testimony in • his defence
should be unsworn : in justice to the Sheriff, therefore, the in:7
quiry 'should be ref.•rred to a Court of Law. lie agreed with the
f lon. Baronet, that it IVe!t: I not he proper for the House to order
she Attorney-Central ut ire..nd to prosecute the Sheriff at pre-
sent; but IL!, as th, Law-Officer of the Crown, was willing to
prosecute on his own re-polisihility, and bring fairly to issue
all that wis stated to him on oath and that he 'believes.—
lie could b'tr testimony to the fact, that months ago the Attor-
ii; y-General of Method had stated his intention of filing an ea
rots infinn.atinti against the Sheriff, but had delayed It in
consequence of being accu4.ll himself. An examination at the
bar of the I !Oil 't. mast op.-rate in one of two ways: if the Sheriff
were acquitt..;!,;t mould he on unsworn testimony, after he had
been aceic...ii on 'worn testimony ; and if he were thought guilty,
the house could only end where the matter without any inter:.
ference attic I louse would now begin, by the prosecution of the
Sheriff bytin• Attorney-General; but with this difference, that the
Sheriff would go to his trial with the weight of a declaration of the
Ilouie z.g.,ilist hint. Cu every consideration,therefore, both of con-
venience and justice, he thou:;ht the House should not interfere.
He did not di-pute the high ;sowers of the House to institute an
inquiry into the Aniiiiistration of justice when necessary ; but
those transcendent powers were only fit to be called into action
on emergencies, iu which the ordinary proceedings of law were
in-efficient to grant redress. But no such case existed at pre-
sent, and th...tetore he considered an examination at the Bar of
:be !louse wholly unnecessary.
Mr. lIIIOUG Hall said, if justice could be better done to
the individual in a Court of Justice than in that House, it was
strange that the individual himself had not adopted that course;
hut, on the contrary, had petitioned the House to take up his
case. The Hon. Secretary, however, said, " Oh ! but the Sheriff
does not understand his own case, and therefore the House must
interfere to protect him. He (Mr. Brougham) however, was
not so ignorant of the benefits to be derived from the interference
of this house, as to agree to this 4octrine. He knew the con-
trary ; and if an instance to chew this was necessary, he need
only refer to the case of Mr. Wyndham Quin, where an
authority would be found—( Loud cries of Hear, hear, hear).—
But he would say, even if this was the first case, it would be the
duty of the House to interfere. What was the charge? Why
it was the charge against a Corporate Officer, of having tainted
the source of justice, by packing a Jury, and that for a political
purpose. And by whom was this charge against the Sheriff
brought forward? Why, by his 'Majesty's Attorney-General,
who, if this inquiry was refused, he could nut consider as
acquitted of the charge which had been brought against him.—
The Attorney-General had, on the occasion to which he alluded,
made out a case for himself, which had convinced many who
before had doubted, and would have insured to himself an ac-
qaittal, had ant one of his Friends proposed that the House, in-
stead of voting on his eke, should go to the Order of the Day,
namely, to the reading of an important Exchequer Bills Bill,
leaving his Right lion Plend's acquittal a doubtful matter.
The Hon. and Learned Gentleman then proceeded to contend
, that enquiry by the House would be the most regular and moat
effectual in obtaining the ends of justice.
Sir H. PAR NELL said a few words, which were rendered
inaudible by the cry of " Question !"
For the Motion - 219
Against it - 185
Majority against Ministers - - —54
The other orders were disposed of, and the House adjourned
at lialf•paSt One o'clock.