Star.
London, England, 1809-01-25 00:00:00

himself of the men most likely, • ,
to co-operate with hint to take
.up some of the reports already made on /the
for purposes so desirable. He therefore thought the subject, and proci;ed upon them.
House had a right to call upon the Hon. Gentleman Mr. LONG said it was not fair in the Honourable
for a list of 15 names of such men as he would wish Gentleman to argue that so many reports had been-,
to act with. But a list from the Chancellor of the made and not acted on. The first report made by
Exchequer was a mere farce, and as such it would be ,' this Committee, relative to the Bank, had beets most
considered by the people. • carefully attended to and acted on, and the Public
Mr. R. WHARTON said, that after what had had already derived considerable advantages from it.
fallen from several Gentlemen who had spoken on the In regard to the second, which related to the Pay
subject then before the House, he deemed it necessary Office, he had intme,lately acquiesced in the septa-
that he, situated as he had been, and particularly ob- ments of the C( mmittee, and there was not one of
jected to on the appointment of the Committee, should the regulations they had recommended that he had
request the House to indulge him with their attention not attended to, and so far adopted •as w,...s in his
till he offered a few observations. He had endea- : power. As Kim! of these would require an Act of
voured to discharge the trust which the House had i the Legishoure, it was his intention to bring it for-
done him the honour to confide in him, with every I ward, but he had not yet been able to do it. In every
possible degree of assiduity in his attendance, and the : other instance the utmost deference had, in that de-
most anxious desire to contribute all in his power to partment, been paid to the regulations proposed by
effect those important objects which it appeared to the Committee. As to what had fallen from an
him the House had in view, in appointing to the Corn- 1 Honourable Member opposite respecting a gentleman
mittee of which he had been a Member, and which who hail been in the Pay Office, but who was not
was now intended to be revived. It had been said, i now a Member of the House, an inquiry had iinme-
that there were many delays during the time that the • diately been instituted ; and he found that the sum,
Committee was in the exercise of its functions. He I whatever it might have been, had been paid into the
allowed this to be the case, but he was at the same I Office by the gentleman alluded to.
time bold to say, that those delays had in s great mea- i Mr. P. MOORE said, the allusion he had made
sure proceeded from along Paper which had been in- on that head was only to express his surprize that
troduced by the Hon. Gentleman who was Chairman , Mr. T. Steele had not been prosecuted.
of the Committee, and he believed that every opposi- Mr. LONG said that was not his business.
tion that Paper had met with, either from himself, or Mr. CREEVEY said it appeared somewhat extra-
any other Honourable Member of the Committee who ordinary that this gentleman, who was a Privy Conn-
thought proper to object to it, arose from a conscious- calor, should, at the time he was Paymaster of the
ness on their parts, that the paper he alluded to con- Forces, in the face of an Act of Parliament, have
tamed many particulars relative to the prerogative of helped himself to 12 or £14,000 of the public money,
the Crown, and other matters not at all relating to the i and notwithstanding that after this report he had him-
expenditure of the public money, and which he him- self acknowledged he had done so by paying back the
self and the Gentlemen who thought as he did, from money, he should still remain a Privy Councillor.
time to time, opposed, because they did not think pro- Mr. I. H. BROWNE admitted many disagreeable
per to register the Honourable Chairman's edict, circumstances had occurred in the Committee, but he
without having examined itsvarious contents and their believed from no ill intention in any one, nor from any
several bearings, more especially, as he thought that desire to protract unnecessarily the time of the Corn-
it contained many things which were never in the con- mittee. Many thought a reform as to the power or in-
templation of the House to enquire into when they fluence of the Crown was necessary, and others that it
appointed the Committee. As for his own part, he was not ; and he believed each party was actuated by
had been actuated by no other motive than a real re- what they really thought to be right. Many of the
gird and zeal for the public interest, and as such had Committee thought the influence of the Crown was
pursued the line of conduct which appeared to him the most valuable part of the Constitution, of course
most conducive to that end ; and he should, therefore, those would not agree to diminish it ; but though he
by no means regret his name being left out of the did not exactly agree with either party oil this head
Committee, if the House should think proper to re- and many others, he still thought every one had acted
vive it. to the best of his judgment.
Mr. Alderman COMBE said, he would not wish Lord MILTON said, that after the debate which
or attempt to tax any Gentleman in particular, but had then taken place, lie was apprehensive the ap-
there was certainly a strong disposition in many Gen- pointment of a Committee could be productive of no
tlemen to prolong the discussion upon every occasion, essential service, or that the burdens of the people
so that it was impossible to make any report till the would, after so many reports, be at all diminished.—
very last day of the Session. The last speaker had said, that in the Committee
Mr. SUMNER said, there had certainly been a many persons thought the influence of the Crown was
considerable difference of opinion as to many very the most valuable part of the Constitution of the
important points among the Gentlemen who corn- country. He for one did uot think that the Crown
posed the Committee ; but, he believed, none which should have no influence, but he was of opinion that
were made from any other motive, than that each in- those who entertained such sentiments as to the power
dividual thought it his duty to oppose every matter of the Crown, were very unfit to be members of such
which he did not think for the public interest, or not a Committee. He was sorry the Committee had ever
within the view of the House in appointing the Corn- been taken out of the hands of the independent coun-
mittee. There was one particular question relative try Gentleman who had first proposed it.
to sinecure places, which was very warmly debated Mr. BIDDULPH said, he thought it was more
during five days, and on which they came to a reso- the blisiness of the House now to look prospectively
lotion on the last day. An Honourable Member on than retrospectively ; and that if it had many years
the floor, who had so loudly complained of protract- ago been thought highly necessary to attend to the
ed discussion, had on that last day spoken no less subject, it must be infinitely mere so at the present
than eight times ; he had counted them, and in the moment ; and if, ,by the investigation of the House
'last of the eight speeches he did not say a word that into the public expenditure, they can give the public
he had not said in the first seven, nor in the first I a confidence in their zeal for the general interests of
seven any thing which he had not uttered in seventy i the country, it would certainly be highly desirable.
speechesbeforethat time —(a laugh). It wasnot therefore I The Committee should, therefore, he freely and fairly
surprising there should be very considerable delay, as chosen, by their names being alternately called from
every Gentleman supposed be had as great a right to each side of the House.
deliver his opinion as the Honourable Member who 1 Mr. BROGDEN thought the Committee had gone
now so much condemned the Committee on the score farther than was intended, and that they had a right
of protracted discussion. For his own part, he had to do, in making a retrenchment on the privileges and
opposed such parts of the proceedings as he thought I prerogatives of the Crown, and as such lie opposed
the Committee was not intended to interfere with, and the report.
had done no more than what he thought his duty re- Mr. ELLISON said he was willing to go into
quired of him. every question of retrenchment in the expenditure of
The Hon. D. BROWNE said, that immediately the public money, but it seemed co be the bent of the
before the Easter recess, the Honourable Gentleman, I report of the Honourable Chairman to interfere with
the Chairman, proposed a treatise in the form of a the prerogatives of the Crown : as such, he, for one,
report, to which he could by no means give his as- had opposed it. An Honourable Member, whose
sent.. Many other Gentlemen of the Committee en- accusatory disposition was well known, had said, by
tertained the same opinion of it as he did, viz. that way of anticipation, that the Committee, constituted
it proposed matters to Parliament which it could not as it was, would endeavour to throw obstacles in the
stand on, and as such these were repeated discussions I way of reform, but he believed that, in following the
on it, which occasioned the delay that had been so dictates of their own hearts, they would be found as
much spoken of. He thought, that in a Committee I desirous of reform, as that Hon. Member or any
of Parliament no matt should pay a regard to popu- I other in the House.
lar feeling, but determine to act in such a manner only Mr. BANKES said, with some warmth, he could
as his duty pointed out to him to be proper and right. not sit silent and hear it said that the report which he
Mr. BANKES said a few words in explanation. had submitted to the Committee contained any in-
Lord A. HAMILTON said, that if the Chancel-. novation on the prerogative of the Crown. It' was
for of the Exchequer persisted in this Committee, it false that any word in it had tended to trench on that
might in his opinion prove nugatory, ao-heeould not prerogative.—[4 try of Order, Order.]
conceive, after the Hon. Gentleman who Nims the Mr. H. THORNTON said, that the report,. at
Chairman of the last Committee had declined, there the utmost, only went the length of saying, the in-
was any one who would accept a seat in it. fluence of tht Crown ought to be diminished.
Mr. ELLIS said, a Right Honourable Friend of The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
his under the Gallery (Mr. Yorke) had stated, that said, if the Honourable Gentleman on the floor (Mr.
some alterations had taken place on the last day of P. Moore), alluded to him as the culprit, he would,
the meeting of the Committee. He believed there on a future day, put in his defence, he could not do
was some trifling amendment made in one part, of a it too soon—(Mr. Moore answered across the House,
'few words only, " that it might be expedient to re- it was not him). If (Mr. Perceval continued), any
duce the salary of some, and to abolish others ;" but of his Honourable Friends near him were alluded to,
this was done after very ample discussion, and in he was sure it would be equally their wish that the
making. it there could be no colourable imputation charge should be speedily brought forward. He in-
of surprise on the Committee. In the treatise which ; sisted that every attention had been paid to the re-
had been alluded to, there was a dissertation on the ' commendations of the Committee in the Pay-Office,
increase of tl e influence of the Crown, which, elo- ; and,his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Long) had not only
quent as it was, contained sentiments of which he ! followed up every recommendation of the Committee,
could not approve, and he therefore gave it his decid- ! but had given them information cf the highest im-
ed and hearty opposition. Objections, however, had : portance. With regard to the Bank, he believed the
been made as to the style and manner in which the , Honourable Chairman (Mr. Bankes) would allow he
several Members of the Committee had carried on , had paid every attention to the report of the Commit•
their opposition. For his own part, he could only say, tee, and obtained thereby great advantages to the
that he had acted for the best, and he verily believed country. A variety of opinions had been formed as
every other Honourable Gentleman who acted with to the appointment of this Committee. Some thought
him had dorne:the same, and there was certainly not this, others that, the most proper mode of forming it.
a stronger ?mord vexatious opposition on their part The object he had in view was to adopt as far as pos-
Oran on that of the other side. He conceived there- sible that mode which could the nearest assimilate to
fore, their opposition would be received by the House the idea of the Honourable Chairman, by reducing
in the manner it was meant. If his name was left the numbers so as to obtainttlegatch he so much
out, he should not feel any regret, consoious of hay- desired ; and he could not *d-elpressing his
ing acted as his duty required him' to do. ; hopes that his Honourable Friend would reconsider
Mr. SUMNER explained. . !the subject, and determine to resume that office for
Mr. N.CALVERT said h' saw no good that could which, In the opinion of the House and of the coun-
arise out of this revived Committee ;he thought the ' try, he was so eminently qualified. He was greatly
better way would be to name a flash Committee, oe :Wpm* he said, at the. deelaratio4 of a Noble Lord

Lord H. Petty), that he would

be a Ivremhet rr

__ not
any Committee nominated by a Chancellor of the
Exchequer. He requested that Noble Lord and his
Friends would look back to the original formation of
that Committee ;_let them compare this list with that
which was introduced by the Noble Lord, who, as
Chancellor of the Exchequer, took it out of the hands
of the Honourable Gentleman who was its air.-1
and out of 21 Members of which the Committee ISIS
composed, 19 were persons who were in (Liilv 'h.to•ts
of holding the same political opinions with himself.
Mr. ELLISON, in explanation, said, he had that
night been speaking of a Report on which he had a
right to comment, and in doing so had used none-
other than Parliamentary language. If he had spoken
so as to give offence, he would be willing to apolo-
gize ; but his habits, both in public and private I.fe,
flattered him with the hope he had not done so. An.
Hon. Gentleman had used the word false, appliel .o
what he had said, and he hoped he would so far ex-
plain what he meant as to free him from such an im-
putation.
Mr. BANKES said, all he meant was, that the
Hon. Gentleman took an unfair view of the subject,
and therefore conceived an opinion of it that was false.
With respect to all those who had differed with him on
the various parts of the Report in question, he wished
to speak of them, and had always conceived them
honourable men ; but acting, as he thought, under a
mistaken or erroneous opinion.
Mr. ELLISON said, if the Hon. Gentleman meant
only to say that he had formed an erroneous opinion,
he was satisfied.
The SPEAKER said he was sure that in what had
been said by either of the Hon. Gentlemen, there was
nothing intended that should cause either of them to
retain it in their further remembrance.
Lord H. PETTY, in explanation, denied that he
had taken the bisiness out of the hands of the Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Bankes). If that Gentleman had
not been originally named on the Committee, it was
merely an accidental omission, and it would appear
by the journ, is of the proceedings pf that Committee,
that he had been the Chairman from the beginning.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
allowed that the Honourable Gentleman alluded to
had been the Chairman of the Committee from its
first sitting, but still he would repeat that it was the
full impression of his mind, that the appointment did
not proceed from the suggestion of the Noble Lord,
hut from some Gentleman on the other side of the
House, who thought it most extraordinary that the
proposer of the measure should not be uponthe Corn-
mittee. •
Mr. BIDDULPH said a few words in explanation.
Mr. PONSONBY said, that the objection of his
Right Honourable Friend was not merely to a Com-
mittee appointed according to the list proposed by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, but he had objected
to any individual Member appointing the Committee.
As to the comparison which the Chancellor of the
Exchequer had made between his list and that of his
predecessor in office (Lord H. Petty), he should only
observe, that the Committee which had been nomi.
nated by the Noble Lord, was such a Committee as
the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) was well
content to act as Chairman to ; but the Committee
appointed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer was of
such a description, that the House had just heard the
Honourable Gentleman declare, that he could not act
as Chairman to it. The Chancellor of the Exchequer
had said, that the Noble Lord had appointed 19 of
his own policical friends, in a Committee consisting
of 21 members. This was, however, nothing very
unnatural or extraordinary, when the sentiments of
the Chancellor of the Exchequer and his political
friends were so well known with respect to all reforms,
and particularly reforms in the expenditure of the
public money. Not much public ‘,,cid could have
been expected from putting enemies of all reform into
such a Committee.
Mr. STURGESS BOURNE said it was impossible
for the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes)
to have protested against acting as Chairman to the
Committee appointed Fly the Noble Lord, as at the
time of its appointment he did not even know that he
was to be one of the Committee.
Mr. JOHNSTONE regretted much that the ques-
tion had been stirred in the way it had been. He
feared it would make an impression on the public
mind that the House had no serious intention of insti-
tuting a fair or satisfactory inquiry. He was sure
there was no part of his Majesty's speech, whist
gave more sincere satisfaction than that which expres-
sed a determination to introduce every practicable re-
form in the expenditure of the pubic money. He
hoped the House-would sliew the same zeal, and he
knew well that there. was a very considerable portion,
of the Pu'lic who did not believe that either side of
the House was very zealous for reform ; but thought
they were all too anxious to provide fir themselves.—
It might injure the Committee very much in the pub.-
lic opinion, if' the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Bankes), should withdraw from it in the manner he
had threatened. The Committee had already done
great services ; it had pointed out an annual saving
of 200,00u1. per annum, with respect to the Bank ;
it had shewn abuses in the Pay Office, which had, in
consequence, been reformed, and it had given such
a detailed account of pensions and sinecure places, as
must ultimately be productive of advantage.
Mr. WILBERFORCZ was inclined to think that
it would be advisable that the House should have
more time to make up its mind upon thesubject: he
thought that they should consider the general effect
of the prejudice which would prevail against the Com.
mittee, if it were constituted in such a manner that
the Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) could not
1 act with them. It was impossible to find a man leis
influenced by party motives or personal considera-
tions than the Honourable Gentleman., He conceived
that his retiring from the Committee would be such a
loss that it would be better to pause, in order to see
whether it would not be possible to Xdopt some mid..
die course which might be satisfactory to all parties,
and to that Honourable Gentleman. He should,'
therefore, hope, that as soon as the question was car-
ried on the resolution, ‘, that a Committee be appoin.
Led," the Right Honourable Gentleman (the Chan.
cellor of the Exchequer) would not proceed any furl.
titer this night in the appointment of the, Committee.
The question was then put, that a Comm ree sl ould
be appointed, which was carried without opposition.
DISPATCHES FROM SPAIN.
The House were about to lifbreed to the other zoo•