Star.
London, England, 1807-04-10 00:00:00

dered to he the confeemence of the eonedlons inten- '
ded tq be made to them, by a Noble Lord, not in that
,Houle, whole adminißration, he always thought,
meant to fubvert the Protellant religion.
Lord HOWICK role to order. He laid, tke
Honourable and Learned Dolor had, if he under-
flood him right, Rated that there was a Noble Lord,
not in that houfe, who had endeavoured to fubvert
the Proteftant religion—a crime of the greateft mag-
nitude ; and he called on him, if he were a man, to
name that Noble Lord, that he might be ordered to
the Bar of the Houle, and brought to that punias-
ment which his crime deferved.

Mr. PLUMER cleared. that if the Honourable
Gentleman knew of any Noble Lord who had been
guilty of Co great a crime, he would name him, as he
thought it was his duty to do.
The SPEAKER laid, he apprehended that every
Member had a right, according to the order of that
Houle, to deliver his fentiments in inch terms as he
thould choofe, provided he did it with decency ; and
that he was not bound to name whom he alluded to,
per to make any excufe, but fuch as he might think
proper to make.
Mr. HORNER Paid, if it was not too late, be would
with the words to be taken down.

The SPEAKER faid, that in cafes when any thing
had intervened before it was &fired to take down the
words, it was ton late to make fuck a motion.
Mr. SHERIDAN wilhed to know Whether he had
rightly comprehended what the Hon. and Learned
Do&or had (aid ? He underftood him to fay, that a
Noble Lord, a Privy-Councillor to his Majefty, had
attempted to .fubvert the Proteftant religion. The
Hon. and Learned Gentleman ought, therefore, to
name him, that he might be proceeded again as fuck
a crime deferved. _

Lord HOWICK apprehended the order of the
Houk was made for the purpole of conducing the de-
bates with decency and decorum ; and therefore, that
the name of a Memberof that Houfe was not allowed
to be mentioned in the difcullion of any fubjen under
confideration. If that was the cafe, he looked upon
it as much more diforderly to mention the name of a
Member of the other Houle, as it might be the means
of creating animofities between the two branches of
the Leginature. He thought, therefore, he was
Orinly jullified in calling upon the H u. and Learned
Donor to name the Noble Lord he had alluded to;
for fuch was his high refpen for that Noble Perron-
age, that he could not fit Hill, and hear fuch a charge
made, without taking the notice of it he had done.
Mr. CANNING laid, that whatever might be the
intemperance of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
behind him, he did not think he had been fo diforderly
as to be called upon to name the Noble Lord be
:aided to. For his own part, he declared he had
not an idea whom he meant : and he hoped the Hon.
and Learned Gentleman would take notice of what
had fallen from the Chair, that he was not obliged
either to name the party, or to make any other cxcufe
than he fhould choofe.

Mr. GRENVILLE laid, it was impoffible for him
to believe, till he heard it from the Speaker, that the
Hon.and Learned Gentleman, after the charge he had
made againft a Peer of the realm, fhould not be
obliged to name that Noble Lord to whom he had
alluded, that he might be proceeded againft as the
nature of his offence required.
The SPEAKER Paid, it then became his duty to
difcharge the funitions of his office. As he7under-
flood the order cf that Houle, it was not allowable
to mention the name of any Member, at that might
tend to create altercation, and to interrupt the hat-
mony and decorum of debate. He always under-
flood, however, that it was competent to any Mem-
ber of that Houle, in the conrfe of his speech, to
allude to the tranfaEtions and conduit of any public
Minilter of this country, fo as be did it in decent
terms ; and that in fo doing he was not obliged to
name the party, nor did he thereby commit any tech-
nical violation of the orders of the Houle.
Dr. DUIGENAN then exculed hir.sfelf, on the
ground that men were often led by the heat of debate
to fay things, which in the moment of cool reflation,
they were lorry for having uttered.
Sir S. ROMILLY Paid, it was not his intention to
take up at any great length the time of the Houle,
and be therefore wifhed to draw their attention to
what was the real quettion before them, which he
thought bad for fome time been loft fight of. It was
in fat an abfirat propofition, involving in it a quef.
tion of the higheft importance to the people, and to
the Sovereign. He had heard fuch datrines deli-
vered that evening, in arguing the prefent question,
as made him doubt whether he had not forgotten, or
whether he had not miftaken all he had hitherto read,
refpeiting the confiitution of this country. His Right
Hon.aad learned Friend had allowed that his Majesty's
late Minillers were difmilfed, becaufe they would not
give a pledge not to bring under his Majelly't notice,in
any way whatever, the claims or petitions of his Ma-
jefty's Roman Catholic fubjeas of Ireland. If he tin.
dertiood the conftitution sightly, it would have been
a high crime and mifdemeanour in any Milliners, to
have given filch a pledge. He always underficiod.
that one of the firtt and fundamental maxims of the fi
contlitution was, " that the King can do no wrong."
If Ministers, therefore, were to comply in giving filch
a pledge, it would be a direct breach of the conftitu.
lion, as it would be divesting themfelves of that re•
fponfihility which forms the balls of the maxim, and
devolving it on the King. His Right Honourable
and Learned Friend had laid, that this was bringing
the Sovereign to the Bar of the Houfc, for the
purpolt of conveying an implied cenfure on his Ma
jelly's ufe of his prerogative, in the undoubted right
he had to difmifs fuch of his fervants asR he fhould
think proper. He allowed his Majefty bad an un-
doubted right to exercise all his prerogatives, and
the cvidlion only was as to ihofe who advifed the
evelcife of that alludet to. His Right Honour-
able and Learned Friend, in fupporting the new
do trines on the Conftitution, which be bad
adopted, had undertaken to fay, the King bad no
adrifers on this meafure ; but however great his
refpeit was for his Right Honourable and Learned
Friend, he could not well believe this was the cafe—
for his blajefly mull have tome advifers, otherwife he
had charged himfeif with a refponfibility which the
Conftitution did not allow of. He acknowledged the
King might by law call any man to his Councils, and
ads ife with any man he might think proper. He might
call to his Councils a man whom that Houk had not
long fence declared had not their confidence [A waiter-
/al cry of Hears haw !] His biaielly might caudally by

law do this ; but thofe who advifed it were refpon(ble
for it, and ought to be made fo. It might, perhaps, be
faid that this cenfure of the Houle had been in Come
degree mitigated, by the party alluded to having heen
tried and acquitted ; yet, notwithtlanding this ac-
quittal, none of his noble or honourable friends had
evinced fufficient courage to come forward and move
that thole Refolutions be refcinded. However, though
thofe circumftances might tend to mitigate the buff.
nefs, he could not anfwer how that Noble Lord could
enter another Honk, and fee the countenances of all
around him, without reading the awful fentence of
" Guilty soon my honour."
Mr. S. STANHOPE here (poke to order, on the
ground that Sir S. Rornilly was doing what had juR
been cenfured in Dr. Duigenan.
Mr. WARD reminded the Houfe that the SPEAKS&
had determined that Dr. Duigenan was not out of
order.

Sir S. ROMII.LY proceeded with obferving, that if Minliten
gave loch a pledge as that required, they might do fo in other
cafes, and his Majefty might be left without any refponfible
oilers. It was but too well known, he Paid, what had in former
dmes been the dreadful effeeta produced by Democracy, in conk-
goatee of foch criminal conduct. He had not the fmalleft Inters-
tice even to infitmate, that his Majefty had not the higheft refpedt
for the Conftitution •on the contrary, he believed it was the 'Aft
neareft his bean to preferve it pure and untainted. He felt fig his
Majefty all the gratitude and affetftion which his Majtity's
confidence, lately placed in him, to naturally and fo line-etch,
in-
fpired. It was his *dollen albne of whom he complained. After
the documents rcatgby his Right Honourable and Learned friend,
be hoped the Honourable Gentleman under the gallery would not
,is vote for the order of the day, as be had laid, he only did fo
bacaufe be was not informed by the motion In what terms this was
couched. If the late Miniftry were difmiffed becaufe they would
not give a pledge, it remained for his Right Honourable and
Learned Friend to explain hereafter-how the prefent Minlltry
came into office without giving any Inch pledge. He was lorry
an attempt had bees made to embitter the repore of the country
by letting up the cry that the Church was in danger. His Right
Honourable and Learned Friend had laid he would Rand bj his
Sovereign at a time when the Eftablifbed Religion of this country
was threatened by the attempts of the Roman Catholics. He bad
the high& refped for his Right Honourable and Learned Friend ;
he had long lived in habits of the ftrideft intimacy with him; welt
knew his numerous private virtues; which he greatly revered, and
he could not but caution his Right Honourable Friend to beware
how he gave way to that argument. He would entreat him to re-
tied ferioufly on the fuhjed, not while smidft the fpkndid allure-
ments of a Court, but in the hours of toter meditation, and when
furrounded by his numerous pledges of conjugal affection, to confi-
der what may be the future confequer,ces to them,amongft the reft
of the people of this country, if, unfortunately for it. the kourge of
religious animofities were again let afloat, and we fhould again be
affiidted with all chafe evils, the bare idea of which was fufficient to
make a thinking man (budder with horror.
Mr. BRAOGE BATHURST Paid, this was the firft change of
Miniftry, in his time, in which the particular conduct of the King
was called in queftion. The fupporters of the motion difelaimed
all idea of involving his Majefty in the difeuffion; but it had, not-
withftanding, that tendency; and it was to that effect he objeded.
Sir P. MURRAY expreffed his entire concurrence in the fen.
timents of the Honourable Gentleman who bad juft fat down. In
anfwer to foot: obfervations which had fallen from the other fide
of the Houle, be fbould only fay, that the Hon. Member (Sir
Samuel Romilly), bad given vent to a fpirit not lets rancorous
than that which he had condemned in another (Dr Duigenan.)
The great and exalted friend (Mr. Pitt) of the Noble Vileount
(Melville), thus bitterly attacked, had not exerted his great in-
fluence and power to protect his Lordftdp ; and, therefore, it was
not furprifing that the aecufing party, aided by faction, and tak-
ing advantage of the falfe rufpicions fo milehievoufly circulated,
mould have fucceedtel in their attempt. The Learned Member
had laid, that the word guilty mutt echo in his Lordffiip's ears,
but why not the word acquittal? How far. he alked, would that
Oentlemars carry his paffion for blood and pundhotent ? Yes, it
was the acquittal that tortured him, mesa alta sande rep/from
He Could not forgive, even after a laple of fo much time, an ac-
quittal in fpite of all his exertions. The Gentlemen on the other
fide lavilhed praifes upon his Majefty, and at the fame time would
charge that he had fecret advifers ; thus infinuating that his Ma-
Jay was not capable of exereifing his cookie:lce, or adting from
the dietates of his own mind. He believed, however, that the
ronduet and firmnefs aeon by his Majefty upon this occafion,
would prove the contrary.
Sir S. ROMILLY explained.
Mr. WHITBREAD, in a long and argumentative fpeech, ob.
ferved, that the dodtrinea inculcated by the other fide of the
Houle, were a grofs mifreprefentatlon of the Conftitution, or that
the Conititution was an empty name. There wassot one mo-
ment, he contended, from that on which the King puts the Crown
upon his head, until his demife, in which tome perfon is not re-
fponfible for his Majefty. The prefent Minifters, under all the
eireuzultances in which they came into power, were refpor.fible in
the prefent quettion. The Conftitution held them liable, and if
in anfwer to an Addrefs to his Majefty, requefting him to name
his advifcr, he mould fay, he had none ; it would be the duty of
the Hoare not to be fati'ficd with this anfwer, and to nettle the
prefent Minifters. His Friends had been unfitted for introducing
the King's name ; but who were the aggreffors ? (Hear ! bear 1)
little Champion of the Church of England (Mr. Perceval) had not
made a cry of Popery, and the Church in danger ; if an alarm
was not attempted to he excited of the repetition of the bloody
leans that difgraced the age of bigotry ; and if garbled =trade
from papers that ought to have been kept Cured, had not bees
made public, it might have been avoided ; but the Champion of
the Church having done this, and his (Mr. Whitbread's) Hon.
Friends, having the King's cadent to vindicate their coodudt, it
became peccary that they mould do fo ; and if the Champion of
the Church, who Rands more in need of the Church's fupport,
than the Church does of his ; if that Right Hon. Gcntlearan, now •
no longer learned, finer he had facrificed his profeffion, and beczane
a martyr to his duty to his Sovereign, Is afraid that the Catholics
gill wam their hands in Protatant blood, he has none but Modell
to blame for there confequences. After obferviog upon the em-
bamffment which the prefent Miniflars nauft feel, route of whom
had formerly pledged themfelvcs to the Catholic queftion, be
Hon. Member proceeded to Rate, that the meafore could not be a
violation of the Coronation Oath; for, in that event, it malt haws
been equally violated by former come/Bons tothat clafs of his Ma.
jefty's I uhjeCts ; the difabilities of the Catholics having been inflic-
ted futifequent to the framing of that oath. With refped to the
cafe of Vifcount Melville, he mould ever veiled upon it with pride;
and be was furprifed to find, that his Lordetip bad been called to
Mn 11/I.is4v's Counoll.. with th• Rofolutions azalea _him
feinded upon the journals. If loch were the tad, he amid ape
hefitaie to fay, that Minifters had advlled the King to do that
which was diftelpedful to the Houfe, and difpleafing to the coon.
•try ; Mr. Pitt having allured the Houle, that while tefe
to anyßcfolu- ,
dons Mould remain unrefeinded, Lord Melville's return
office of trail, power, or emolument, was impolible. The prefect
motion, be admitted, if carded, tuuft be followed by others. It is
the right of the Crown, no doubt, to ehoofe its MinLftersAut Per.
li moot have alfo a right to expzefs their opinion upon its elate&
Mr. BATHURST, in explanation, laid that be did not idiot '
that•the Houfe might not interpole to advik the Crown in oho
like the prelate. •
Mr. ROSE contended. that there was no refpoofilde advffer of
the Crown, when his Majcfty called for the pledge from the late
Minifters.

lord HOWICK Taid. he &add occupy but a (Mall portion of
the time of the Houk; yet in a quenion perfonally affedling him-
felt fb nearly. It was impolAble for him to fair the Houk to fe-
parate without making a few obfervations The prefent debate
had been concluded in a way extremely painful to him; he bad
beard the moft uneoaltitutiontd dodtrines, and he had heard the
King's name molt unconnitudonally employed. What had hap-
pened He bad Rated to the Houk the cafe of himfelf and his
colleagues; that ihteMClt was not impeached, and there was not
a word to It incontinent with what amid be capeaed from a
dutiful fervent to an indulgent wafter. A pledge was required,
and Minifters Could not to honour give that pledge. Mach bad
been Paid of keret advice, and it was right to be plain in the mu-
tat eircumftances. He believed there bad been pains taken to
poifon the Royal mind He knew nothing what advice was given ;
but thus much he knew, that Lord Eldon had an audience on the
Saturday preceding the day on which he fent down a difpatch,
with the whole of the mature, regarding the Catholic DOL.—
Afterwards, Lords Fitton and Hawkelbary were feat for by his
bfakfty, and proceeded from the King to the Dam of Portland,
to form the new Adminittratlon. Then there two Noblemen,
aK felt, were refpcsfible for the proceeding. Lard Sown could

not jultify bindelf by hying, • He did sot fign the partition-
treaty; that, on the contrary, he it: he put the feel
to it, and was damedrefponfible." -Ittif edere were miens why no
pledge could be gives. in juftles to the King and his empire.
The dangers in Ireland bad bens molt ably Rated by a Right
Honourable and Leased Gentleman, and it was not neceffary,
therefore, to detail them. The Catholic Bill having been with-
• drawn, other matures weft be retorted to; and be bad no diffi-
culty in Rating, that It was propofed in the Cabinet to make Come
new regulations regarding tither. It was well known that the
tithes in that country was one Glebe molt fruitful fources of pub-
lic dircontent. An Hon. Gentleman bad argued, that it was Come-
what extraordinary that dikontents iheuld exift among the loweft
orders of the frith Catholics, end • yet the boon propoial was inn
for the higher orders. But to this he would an(wer, that
the realm why the great nub of the Catholic population in Ireland
had not come forward of late years to fund& its vas totbe Mili-
tary fervice of the country, was becaufe the higher orders were not
allowed their rank in the ferviee, and that, in confequence, their
influence was withholder" from recruiting for that fervice.. A
Learned Dodtor, under the Gallery, (Duigenan) dented the fad of
any deficiency in the recruiting fervice being felt on this account ;
for that 3 Aida of the army railed in Ireland were &dually Proteft-
ants. If this itatetnent were true, it was in fupport of the roes-
lure propofed; for if out'of the military raifed in Ireland 3.4ths were
Proteftants, and i-4th only Catholies,where the proportion of po-
pulation was exadly the contrary way, it was proof irrefragable
that the Catholic population of Ireland did not turnifh its propor-
tion to the public fervice. He was willingto give credit to eßfght
Hoc. Gentleman, (Mr. Peaccvet.) when, for the part he had
taken on this fubjedt, he difclaimed all illiberal motives; but yet
' from hie avowed jundtion with parties out of doors, end the lan-
guage of advertifemeuts and band bilis addreffed to his anat.
tuents at Northampton, It would appear that bane little exertion
bad been made by him to,ralfe a cry of religious rancourtn the
i. country. Woman admired more than he did amen 'of trely religi-
ons principles. becaufe filch a man mutt be difpofed to inculcate
'menet his neighbours and fellow-fubjeds all the feelings of mu-
tat toleration charity, d benevolence; but of all the -mil-
-1
chievom charade which feft human fociety, that man was
the molt tobe detefted, wh , with religion on his lips, and ran-
cour and intolerance in hi( heart, fought for the purpofes of per-
fonal advantage and temporal Jute-reit, to excite amongft his
fellow-fubjedis fanatical hatred and bigoted difte.ntions. In the
year dot, that Right Hon. Gentleman was Solicitor-General,
under the Adosiniftration of Mr. Pitt, then in favour of a com-
plete emancipation to the Catholics; but he was totally at a las
to reconcile his avowed principles on that day with his conduct
at prefent. Upon the fame ground, be was at a Infs to account for
the prefent principles Grebe Noble Lord oppofite toelins(Lord CAP
TLlllt ZAGS) who had before quitted elite with Mr. Pitt, beaufe
he could not carry the queftion of complete Catholic etaaaci-
pation. Lord Howica concluded by fupporting the motion.
Mr. CANNING, in a. fpeech of coofiderable length, epporetU
the motion, and denied that his Majefty's prefent Minifters, who
were not more than a fortnight in power, could be juftly charged
with refponfibility for the difiriffal of his Majefty's.Mlnifters,
which had been a meafure refolved on Si weeks ago. He would
not difavow that he joined with his late Friend (Mr. Pitt), fa the
with of effedliag what was called Catholic Emancipation and be
cordially approved the fubfequent conduit of that illulttiaus Pee.'
fat: for though he bai quitted power, becaufe he could not carry
that nicafure in the way he winked, yet fo far from feeling himfelf
bound, as an individual Member of Parliament, to persevere in
preffiog it, contrary to the with of his Sovereign, he bad pledged
himfelf never to urge it more, Co long as he thould conceive his
Majefty's mind averfe to it. He declared that Co far was he from
advifing the late difaiiffal of his Majefty's Mittifters, fo loon as be
underftood fuck an intention was formed. be bad communicated
his fentiments in writing,with a view to prevent, if poffihle, loch a
cats, and to adelfe that the fubjcet Gould be fully confidered, and,
if poffible, fuch a compronalfe formed as fhould obviate all neceffity
for futh a change. He could anfwer for a finsilar endeavour en'
the part of the Noble Duke now at the head of Adminiftration,
and of a Noble Lord at the head of the law, and that it was not
until the Royal Determination" as formed, and that he and many
of his colleagues were called on to accept his Majefty's confidence,
and they complied. He wadi:red the prefent queftiou net as
one between the late and the relent Adminiftration, but as one
between the late Minifters and their Sovereign, whom they now
brought to be reponfible at the Bar of the Houle of Commons,
and endeavoured to commit the King with the Parliament. For
the advice of reftoring Lord Melville to his Majefty's Councils,
he was ready to take his (hare of refponfibility : but he thought
fuch a recommendatili would have come much better from the
Hon Gentleman, and his friends, who had concluded a laze pro-
ft:anion spina. that Noble Lord to a fortunate acquittal. He
would only trouble the Hook refpeding one point more, namely,
the effedt which the fueeefs of this motion was likely to pt4duce..--.
It was fuppored that it would lead direct ly or collaterally to the re-
moval of the prefent Adminiltration. Now this was a point upon
which he could by no means agree with the Noble Lord. In his
opinion, it would produce no fuels eget% Neither he nor his col-
leagues fought for office, but having accepted it, they did to with
the mfolution of Rending firm to-their purpote. The mod=
might be carried, and Minikes might be tormented by a ferias
of vexatious motions. Parliament might be a .aloft them, but Rill
there was the refouree of an appeal to the country, and perhaps
he would fal it to be his duty to advife his Sovereign to make its
Lord HENRY PETTY, in a fpeech of gnat warmth sod ani-
mation defended the conduit of the late Miniftry. He was alto.
Mated that the merit of confiltency of coodudt had been claimed Irr
the pretest Minifters. How could that claim be fupported w
any grace by the Right Hon. Gentleman oppofitc an particular,
(Mr. Perceval)—That Right Honourable Gentleman bad effaced,
in his late circular addrefs to the Electors of Northampton, that be
was called upon in confequence of the oath be bad taken at entering
upon the legal part:eon. to Rand by and fupport the Church and
State, which was bow in danger. Was it not in the recolledion
of the Country, however, that in am. when Mr. Pitt's Cain&
Bill was introduced, this champion for Church and State was
mauling, or in fed, had not then discovered the nature of his
moral duties 1 When he looked round, be was confident that the
vote of this day would go forth to the country faudioned by a large
majority, approving of the conduct of his Majefty's late farms
while in office. _

Mr. CANNING explained, but we could not learn the nature
of his explanation, in confequenet of the loud and Met Cant cries
of (bullion I Ctiettion! which completely drowned his voice.
Strangers were then ordered to withdraw, and the Hot& di-
vided. The Numbers were—
For Mr. Ossoates Amendment, for palling to tbel ng
Order of the Day,
Againft It, and for Mr. BRAND'S . 226
Majority in favour of the New ?Vanillas, 32
While Lord Howicit's party were in the Lobby, his Lordfhip
addreffed them nearly in the following manner
0.1 Gentlanav—Before we feparate this morning, I have a few
words to fay: It is extremely probable that the Motion of my
Honourable Friend (Mr. Brand) will be carried by a majority ;
11...• a-threat has been said out by his Majefty's Minifters, of a
Diffolution of Parliament. In the event of furls s areas to"( at-

tempted to be =mud, It will be expedient to max it the
adoption of a refolution, or an addrefs to the Throne. (Near
Hear I Hear !) Gentlemen, 1 have no hebtation ha !Tint, that
fuck a threat is unparalleled in the annals of Parliament...(l/ra!
Heal)
After the divifion had been arintfunered, as above' the Heide
adjourned, at Seven o'Cloek this morning (Friday.)