Star.
London, England, 1805-04-09 00:00:00

'give an opinion 611 the merits of the points be7ore
!us. My ohjea is to, thew that ou: materials are not
fuch as to afford a fafe ground for any final decifion.
—With rtfpea to the matters tbetnrelves, I do not
with to deny that they are of the troit grave and im-
portant net :re. I do again contend, that the public
has not only fuftained no lots, but that it has not
even fuftained any inconvenience from the manner
in which the money was applied. Yet, at the fame
time, I admit, that if the Public money be even in-
correaly managed by a Public Officer, he is refpon-
fible for his condua. Bu: I beg leave to fay, that,
from a full confideration of this Report, I am con-
vinced that all the circumllances are not before us
in the full, clear, and fatisfaCtory manner, in which
they ought to be, before we can give a fair and im-
partial judgment upon them. If this he the fad, we
can much lefs pafs any cenfure in the prefent Rate
of the cafe. If I felt this to be the true (late of the
quellion before I came to the Houfe, my opinion is
much mere confirmed now, from the manner in
which the fubjea has been treated by the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman. He has argued from the
documents now before us, but has not attended, in
many cafes, to feveral circumftances that van .lie
nature of fome tranfaCtions, and the extent and ue
gree of others. The conclufions which he draws
alto are not thofe of the Commillioners, hut fuch as
he himfelf finds it convenient to draw from fe.:.r.ti
circumftances combined together, which, torso
their not being fully known, cannot be completely
understood. The Honourable Gentlentan first reit-
ed his cafe on three grounds, but he atterwards
varied it, and reduced it to one tingle queltion.—
He himfelf, however, has admitted that the whole
is fo connetted together, that it is imantrible to pals
any judgment on one part of the tranfaaion without
taking into account all the rest ; and yet, after all
this, he propofes that the Houle lhould come to a
decifion ou one tingle part of the charge without
pretending to judge of the others, which he leaves
to a future occafion. Now, as to the charge of par-
ticipation, he has not Paid fo much as ..n the mho
two. Yet certainly it would have been much more
p-oper that this thould not have been mentioned at
al, AS the Honourable Gentleman does m t mean
at prefant to infift upon it, heeaufe, of all others,
this is the charge which is molt likely to wound
the feeling, .of thole who are nearly connefted with
the Noble Lord, and of all thofe impartial men
who do not with that an accufation of fuch
a fetious nature thould be brought againil a man,
except under circumftances when they might be pre-
pared to come to a decifion on the point. I am de-
firous; however, that the matter thould be examined
with all that moderation, ferioufnefs, and coolnefs
which ought ever to attend an affair of this nature.
There are a variety of circuniftances wanting that
are Material, as applicable to the charges—There are
many points that require explanation. Without any
long delay, not much beyond the holidays, by agree
ing to the motion for a Secret Committee, for which
I (hall have the honour to move, the Houfe will have
the matter clearly before them ; and it is only by this
mode of proceeding that the whole can be fully invef-
tigated, In as to prepare it for a jolt and impartial
decifion.—Now, Sir, the firft charge is, that certain
fums properly applicable only to the naval depart-
ment, have been applied to other purpofes. At pre-
fent I (hall not enter at large either upon this or the
other charges—but content myfelf with (hewing the
meeffity of tome further inquiry into the circum-
ances.—Nothing appears here as to the motive with
which the thing was done. It is mentioned that the
nioney was applied to other fervices occalionaily.—
But as to all the citcumflances relative to the motive
and the precife necellity that exifted for making Inch
a loan, we are at prefent in the dark. Yet the Houle
will agree that in es mining the condo& of a man
with a vita' to pafs a fentenee of guilty or not guilty,
it is of great importance that the motives which led
to the nanfaaion thould be knoworin order to afcer-
rain the exat degree of delinquency that attaches to
it, or whether there is any delinquency in the cafe at
all. Is the Houle prepared to deny that the tranf-
aftion may be proved to reft upon fuch grounds as
not only to entitle the Noble Lord to an indemnity,
but even to the highelt praife fur having incurred
the tefponfibility ? I only fay this much on this
head, in order to induce the Houfe to agree with me,
that it would not anfwer the purpofes of juftice to
ct.me to a decifion, without a fur:her examination
into the affair. There is a Itatement of a fum lent-
to the Treafury. I do not think myfelf at liberty
at relent to enter upon a particular examination of
that tranfaCtion ; but whether it was illegal or not ;
whether any (hare that I had in it was proper or im-
proper, remains to be enquired into. After this en-
quiry it will be for the Houle to determine, whether
I am liable to cenfure or puni(hment, and I than Cub-
mit, as I of courfe mull do, to their decifion. In the
mean time, however, it is certain that the public have
fuftained no lots, and it may be fuppofed that, if any
money was applied in the manner fuggefted in the
report,it has been for great public purpoles, in which,
perhaps, the falvation of the country might be con-
cerned, and which were of fuch a nature that they
could not be executed, except with fecrecy. I believe
it will be found that two-thirds of the rum mentioned
in the repot t were applied in this manner. The No-
ble Lord occupied fituations in which he alone was
concerned. Whatever money he might have applied
by transferring from one fervice to another in tilde
fituations, I know not, nor can I give any explana-
tion. But if the largeft turn be clearly and explicitly
accounted for,even though the Noble Lord thould not
be able now to account for the reit, and I am not
aware that he can, this will at lea II go to induce the
Houle to believe that the remainder might be applied
with equal propriety. Now another point of accu•
fation is, that firms were allowed to remain in the
hands of the Paymafter, from which Lord Melville
underflood him to have derived tome private be-
nefit before thefe fums were applied to the public
fervice. I beg leave at prefent not to be under-
flood as pretending to fay that it is juilifiable in any
per to apply the public money to views of private
emolument, even though no lots has accrued to the
public. (Hear! Hear!) This matter will come to be
' difculled when the affair is completely before us.—
' Bin this I do affirm that it is molt material that we
lhould be fully acquainted with the nature of the
mifchief done, and the extent to which it has been
carried. The Commiffioners' it ought to be obferved,
do not pretend to fay that there were longer ;Get
from the Exchequer to the Bank than it a more

plain and eorrett mode. of conduCting the bufinefe
of the Navy had been adopted. They admit as a
fail, that the ;flues were not longer. :here were
none that could increafe or accelerate the employ.
ment of the money, and confequently it is evident
that the burdens of the people have not been aug-
mented ; nor has it been proved that a tingle inch
tribal hal been retarded in receiving his payments.
'-The Honourable Gentleman, therefore, brings
charges, founded upon flatements which the Corn-
miflioners theintelv.es did not intend to reprefent as
any grounds of blame. I do not fay, that in the ap-
plication of the money to different pin-poles from
what it was originally defigned, efpecially to pur-
chafes in the funds, there was no rifle. But then
if nn lots has been incurred, this ought to be ac-
counted a throng prcfumption that the money was
not applied withoat proper care and fecurity. It
does not appear that any fervice has been retarded by
this tranfaalien. Upon the whole, it is certainly my
opinion, and I troll that thefe who have read the Re-
port carefully, have perceived, that before a proper
decifion can be given, many circumstances of eluci-
dation are required. In Come points it alto appears
from the Report, that the Commillioners are not al-
together accurate, and this conftitutes another ground
for having this fubjeat further lifted. One of thefe
points is this :—lt teems that money had been car•
tied to the houfe of Mears. Cnntts and Co. not by
draughts on the Bank, which is the ufual way, but'
another mode which has been ocean ,nally refin-ted
to. On this account the Comaatironers fuppnfed
that the money had not been tranfmitted from the
Bank immediately to the houfe of Coitus and Co. I
but had been lodged finnewhere elle lietare it came
into !heir hands. By this means they imagined
that fix mil:ions were in they know net what ha.
zard, and one million they Hated at a particular
period. This million was, iii fait, traitimitted di-
re fly to the hottfe of Coitus, as wield appear on
a further enquiry ; therefore, this main point would
have been explained to the fa tisfitation of the Corn-
million,
if it had been more fully invelligated.—
Another point is the manner in which the accounts
were kept, and the payments made by the fob-ac-
countants. It is certain that it late always been
found convenient that a fmall balance theuld re-
main in the hands of the fub-accountants. A large
fum was drawn by a dr night on the Bank, and this,'
for the fake of convenience in their payments, was I
kiven in fmallfums to the fub-accountants, who often
ept them in the Bank in their own names, and drew'
as they found it necetFary to fatisfy their different
(mall demands. Why then the quetlinn wires, whe-
ther it was neceffary that larger firms Ihould he iffned
from the Exchequer to the Bank, in confequence of
an individual deriving profit from the ufe of limy: of
the money, and whether any inconvenience occurred
from this circumilance ? Now the Houfe knew that
no money can be iffued from the Exchequer to the
Bank on account of the Treafurer of the Navy, with
oat the order of the Navy Board, the Board of Ad•
miralty, the ViCtualling Board, and others conneCted
with that department. The Corernitlioners feemed to
fuppofe that this had been eluded, and that it
was impoffible that larger toms ihould not have
been iffued than was actually neceffary for the im•
mediate demands of the fervice. With regard to
any inconvenience, none had been .fledged, nor
was any ground I'.eted for a charge on that head.
—But there is another circumllance of tome im-
portance, which deferves to be mentioned, and
whica the Coinntijieners teemed not clearly to have
unsierftood. In attending to the balances they do
not appear to have taken into account certain affign-
merits oatftandina, for which the holders might de-
mand hilt:eat payment. With regard to the total
balances in the Bank, they laid that they onftirt not
to exceed meaty days, whereaa in left, they ()Verve
that they have arronnted to thirty-farce, end fume.
times to forty-five days. They feeared, however, to
think, that they.mi?ht fairly be foarteen days. When
they found forty-five days balances, they took an
unfavourable period—but if they had taken the ave-
rage of two periods, if they had looked at the affign-
meats outltanding, and deduCted the turns in the out
ports, the balances would be brought to fourteendays,
the number mentioned by the Clerl:, whom they exa•
mined, and only fix days beyond their owh number.
—Now on a point fo involved, where it is fo new.-
fary that accuracy Ihould be cenfulted, and where
that can only be attained by patient itweitigation, I
leave it to the Houfe to judge whether the matter is
in a proper situation for a decifion. With regard to
this point of the balances, there are no lets than four
errors. This may thew the Houk how very com-
plicated thefe things are. They cannot be prepared
for the final decifion of the Uoufe without a Secret
Committee, who may examine the whole with pa
tience and attention. Now, with regard to another
point, that of the participation, this is a tranfaCtion in
which, above all, further inveiligetion is of impor
tenet. After what the Honourable gentleman laid
at the outlet of his fpeech, with refire& to his mode-
ration, I did hope that this point would not have been
touched upon, cfpecially after the letter written by the
Noble Lord, which mutt be confidered of equal weight
with his oath. The Hon. Gentleman obferved, that
Lord Melville had refufed to anfwer the Commillion-
ers when they queftioned him relative to his deriving
any private advantage from the application of the
money. But whoever links at the report cannot but
be convinced that the grounds on which the Noble
Lord refuted to anfwer, were, that from the manner
in which Mr. Trotter kept his accounts, it was int-
poftible for him to fay, that he had not advanced him
public money without his knowledge. On the fare
of the accounts, too,cool. is the whole amount of
the advances to Lord Melville. It is known, that
of all the turns of iCa millions which had palled
through the hands of laird Melville, every farthing
has been applied to the purpofes far which it was iffued,
and has been regularly accounted for. The Hon.
Gentleman draws his fuipicions from different par-
ticulars ; the exacts refult of which it is extreme-
ly difficult to estimate. All this renders it necef-
fary that the matter Ihould be further invelligated.
—Now, if a Committee be appointed to lift this
tranfaCtion to the bottom, I will venture to affert,
that it will be proved, that from the manner in
which the accounts were kept, a great many fums
drawn in the name of the Treafurer, for his private
account, were, in fad, applied to official purpofes.—
But, at all events, a further investigation is necef-
fary, before judgment is paffed. It is impoffible tot
fay, at prelim, what went to Lord Melville's falary,

as Treafarer, Mr. Trotter was acc!iaoTed to
receive. He was allo acctuto.-.1 .d to receive
lary on of of An office aid li.s di
vidends in the funds. Ali t::ef: fOrmrd part of tl:c
account, and made it er;rermly difficult to unravel.
How in thefe circumflances can the Houle refufe to
inflitute an inquiry by a Selea Committee? I put it In
the candour of the Gentlemen of the Hrufe whether
Lord 11Idvillec..uld poilibly with to receive any of th!s
petty private bentfit, with the convi6tion that he was
aaing improperly ? No motive appeps for fuck a
firan,;e circumtlance. Why, then, it is evident we
have n'.t the materials I.r a fi'ial decifion before us.
It is evi.lent that Lord Melville had no opportunity
of defending hinifell herore the CommiaioGers.—
They put quellions which he was required to anfwer,
but be had not witnelies, nor any power to eras-
examine them. I now, therefore, (land up, according,
to the courfe of Parliament, for a Secret Committee to
lift rill-. affair to the bottom. This cannot occafion any
delay that will be of mate: jai corfequence, and betides
the thing is ahl'lutely neeelfary in order to anrwer the
put poles of Make. I thi‘il fit,t at prefent enter upon
the merits of the fuhjea, becaufe I think that it would
he premature. When the whole cafe is before the
H +life, then an opportunity will be given to difcufs
the matter, and come to a jua and impartial de-
cilion. I Shall now, the:el‘re, only move, by way
of amendment, that the cif carnflances relative to the
condna of Lord Melville, as Treafurer of the Navy,
to be found in theTcntlateport of the Commiffioners
of Nasal Inquiry, be refelTed to a Seled Committee
of this Honk to examine the matter fully,and report
as (hall appear to them to the Houle.
Mr. FOX obj:eied, that the mode propofed, as he
conceived, from his recolleelion of a cafe that hap-
pened about five and twenty years ago, would pre-
vent the original refolutions from appearing upon
the journals of the Houle.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQIJER an-
fwered, that lie dillinelly meant to Itibaitute his ma.
ti,,n for that pi-voted ; and, for that purpofe, to move
the previous qiiellion upon each of the refolutiens.
Mr. GREY fpoke a tew words.
The SPEAKER—', The original quenion was"
—rile thus read the fl refulution propofed by Mr. Whit-
brtad]—" fince which the previous queltion has been
put ; I am now, therefore, to move the previous
queftion."

Lord HENRY PETTY exprefred his anxiety to
take an early opportunity of declaring his fentiments
upon the quellion before the Hoofe ; it was. with a
great degree of furprife he heard the Right Hon.
Gentleman who fpoke last, at the beginning of his
speech, flare, that his Hon. Friend (Mr.Whitbread)
had travelled out of his original track of modera-
tion, and had endeavoured to inflame the paflions of
his hearers ; he, however, obfaved, in the fiat place,
that the refelations of his Honourable Friend were
founded upon plain matters of fait, which arofe out
of the breach and violation of the law ; but the pre.
ference which the Right Honourable Gentleman had
given to appointing a felea Committee, was from an
enumeration of figures, which arofe from the ob.-
fcurity thrown upon the bufinefs by Lord Melville,
and his Paymaller. The 110 of Lord Melville's
having violated the Art of Parliament; of his hav-
ing allowed his Paymafler to lodge certain fums,
fhould have been deputited in the Bank of
Enol:!nd, in the hands of a private banker—of his.
admillion that feveral firms of money, conflitut-
ed for the particular purpofes of the Navy, were
appropriated to other fervic:., were too flagrant
breaches of the Al of Parliament to be paired over ;
and when the Refolutions propofed by his Honour-
able Friend were agreed to, he (-tmid be one of the
tint to acquiefce in the appointment of a Idea Com-
mittee, nor would any Member of that Houk be
more aaxious to carry fuck a nicafure into effect.—
He :tilted, would Lord Melville with to make any
lumber declarations ? and even fo, he felt he could
not go into a Select Committee without a hope of
(bine explanation ; but it was more befitting the
Houle of Commons to :!gr • to the Refolutions then
before them, v.hen a grols breach of an Ad of Par-
liament had been committed. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had laid, that no lot whatever had been
fullainod to the public io this Intliiiefs; it appeared
ta him, however, notwith:tanding the Right Hen.
Gentleman's alrertion, that, at leedl, a great public
rifle might be fufFered ; but, certainly, a great, poll-
tive, and particular public lot; had been futtained.
The Right Hon. Gentleman hid entered into an ar-
gument of numerical calculations, in which he could
not attempt to follow him, being unacquainted with
the forms of office with which the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman was fo converfant : he had laid that large
films were given from the Exchequer for the fervice
of the Navy, which were afterwards appropriated
to other fervices, and much larger rums were drawn
than applied, how then could they have been ap-
plied ? this was not fpecified, and they might as
well have been applied to private purpofes as any
other. The Right Hon. Gentleman had admitted
that great fpeculations had taken place, great rifles
mu:t confequently have follov:ed. A combination
had been formed of three perfons, the one had the
dirdlion of the public funds relating to a particular
department. sir. Mark '2prott was the broker and
manager under Mr. Lll,l3llder Trotter ; he was the
confidential azenr, and accettuta'ole to Lord Mel-
ville ; and he was the I),:fr,:i, who was accountable to
the public. What ire z!!:ed, might have
arifen front this combination e :re had heard of many
combinations of Cifferceit deteriptior ; in the Rate, but
he knew of tone loale ff.rnii.lai,le than the one in
quetlion, and ti. i;•00:c!:!iic deception which Lord
Melville Earl putfued, ltao evaded every attempt at
invelligrion. Isis I.ordlliip then adverted to an
extract from the eviAtice of Lord Melville, given
before the •:::(Traniiiec of Finance, when the tipeaker
WAS at the :Tad tionrd ; and it then appear-
ed, that. no aecoeu of the Fit Treaforeriltip of
Lrd Melville been h'a!ly paii.ed. The No.
ble Lot d bed dated, that the feveral regulations
which had taken place, had enabled him to
catty that moti benetki into efidt. He de-
manded what this hencfieial Att was ? It was not
to coußitt.te tine e: ice of a particular department
into a public trealm y. loud ay cf Hear ! Ilear !)
For lourtecn years his Lordtbip had fyflema-
tically the At of Parliament; and the
Houfe was then celled upon to go into a Committee,
berme the queeion %vas decided, whether the Noble
Lord was to bold the high and important tituation
any longer ?—(Hear! hear!) If it had occurred to