Star.
London, England, 1812-12-02 00:00:00

111111.101EMINIIMENSE taltaelleti Gelidetilikhavingfßelsohl insblren'iMh
PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS. which woe denied to thgrest of the House, came
forward, and made two good essays on subjects fur.
HOUSE OF LORDS, DIMMER L niched to than by the Minister of the day. He
The House met about two o'clock. would move, therefore, that the Address be brought
The Marquis of HERTFORD reported that be had wafted up this day week.—The Amendment being seconded,
an the Prince Regent, to know• when he would be pleased tore- iand
ceije the Address of the House. He bad now to inform their the question put,
Lordships, that his Royal Highness would be ready to receive it Mr. FREEMANTLE thou* it was not ne-
at half-put two o'clock—. Their Lordships then went up with cessary that the Speech should chin a detail of the
the Address. state of the finances of the country., but merely enter
Lord REDESDALE brought up his Bill for facilitating the into a general statement of the resources of the nation.
Administration of Justice in the Court of Chancery and House
of Lords. It was the same, he observed, u his Bill of last year.—
It was afterwards the duty of the House to enquire
Read 'first time. into the power and ability of the finances to meet the
The Earl of LIVERPOOL observed, that after many of their proposed expenditure. With respect to the Address,
' Lordships hail gone away imt night, he had given notice of a rne- he must say that he was one of those who did not
tion of Thanks to the Marquis of Wellington and hit Army, for
• the Victory of Salamanca. He now repeated his notice, and that consider the prospects of the country at all improved
be would bring forward the motion on Thursday. since the Jast.Session of Parliament, whether consi-
, UNIVERSITY PETITIONS. dered internally or externally; indeed, the contrary
The Duke of GLOUCESTER presented a Peti- was his opinion. He was ready to allow with the
tion from the University of Cambridge against the Noble. Lord that our alliance with Russia was one of
• Catholic Claims. In presenting this Petition, he great importance, but its advantages were more than
himself begged leave to be understood as not giving i overbalanced by the unfortunate rupture with Arne-
an opinion either one way or the othero--The Peti- rica ; and when he lookeil to the internal situation of
Lion was laid on the table. the country, he could not bring himself to consider
Lord GRENVILLE stated, that he had in his that as improved during the last nine months. The
band, a Petition from the University of Oxford against Honourable Member then took a review of the trail-
the Catholic Claims. He considered it his duty to :actions attending the contest in the Peninsula, and
present this Petition ; but, in presenting it, he con- contended, that from the dispositions of the Spaniards
ceived it to be no, less his duty to record his own dis- themselves no hopes could be entertained of success.
' tent from its object.—This Petition was also laid on He then adverted to the explanation given by Lord
the table. Castlereagh last night on the subject of the Treaty.
• Lord HARDWICKE, adverting to the Cam- with Sweden, and observed it was one by no means
bridge-Petition, complained of the unfair manner in satisfactory to him.—(Hear, hear.)—An Amend-
which it bad been carried. When it was intended to ment had been moved last night by an Honourable
discuss a matter of this importance, much longer Friend of his—he was as anxious as any man could
'notice ought to have been given.—Adjourned till be to obtain a peace, yet he could not agree with that
Thursday. Amendment, as it was only by rendering ourselves
respectable that we could hope to obtain that object.
He concluded by observing, that he should, in the
course of the Session, tike every opportunity of call-
ing the attention of the House to these subjeets.
Mr. ROBERTSON defended the policy of the
war in the Peninsula, and contended that our situa-
tion there was far more favourable than at the com-
mencement of the last campaign ; since the effect of
the battle of Salamanca had been to raise the siege of
Cadiz, and set all the Southern provinces :'ree ; and,
on a view of the operations of the whole campaign,
he contended that the result_ had been decidedly in
our favour.
Mr- FREEMANTLE said a few words in ex-
planation.
Mr. ROSE said, that he wished to make a very
few observations in answer to a topic which had been
allude to in this discussion, and in which he thought
an unfounded notion had gone abroad, in consequence
of what had fallen from the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer in the course of the last Session. It was a tax
upon capital to which he alluded, and which he con-
sidered as absolutely impracticable. This was the
idea he always entertained of it from its first sugges-
tion, and had so represented it, in an answer which
be had written to a Rig4t Reverend Ptelate, with
whom the idea was supposed to have originated.
Mr.W 0 RTLEY professed to feel asmuch anxiety
as any other Gentleman could do, that peace might
be procured as soon as possible, consistent with our
•honour and our safety. He was satisfied, however,
that whenever it was to be made, it must be by the
act of the Government; and that it ought not to ap-
pears measure forced upon his Majesty's Ministers
by the vote of that House, or by the mete considera-
tion of the distresses of th'.! people. No person could
shut their eyes to the situation and interests of our
manufactut s ; and the Ministers must feel that the)
were incprring a serious responsibility, if they omit-
ted to proffer peace, should a favourable opportunity
present itself.
Lord MILTON could not avoid making some ob-
servations on that part of the Speech which referred
to America. No one could be insensible how much
the prosperity of this country depended on the con-
nection «ith America, and he rather feared that Mi-
nisters had unnecessarily plunged the country in a
war with that nation. In tact, in all the negotiations
with America, it appeared whim there was tco much
irritation on both sides. He was not afraid to say,
that he feared that even on the pars of the grcat per-
sonage at the head of our Government, there might
be something of an hereditary irritation against the
American people. If war was necessary, lie did not
approve of that mitigated warfare spoken of last night
by a Right Honourable Gentleman, but, in the case
of America, lie really believed that tittle ought to
hare been no warfare at all.
Mr. STEPHEN said, that as an Hon. Gentleman
(Mr. Whitbread) bad pledged himself to give the
House an early opportunity of discussing the whole
of this American question, he should not now trcubJe
the House at any length on the subject. He could
;rot avoid, hotkever, when he heard the Noble Lord
speaking of an hered kat y irritation against America
on the part of the Head of our Government, expres-
ling his opinion, that this was a most unmerited cen.
sure on that august and venerable Yersonage,,who
had, for so marry years, (Lord Milton, across
the House, told him, it was not to that Personage he
bad alluded; and Mr. Stephen apologized for having
misunderstood him.) The words of the speech were,
however„ now so fresh in the recollection of the
House, that he thought, they must evidently sce, that
*bele ,was nothing.ofirritation towards America in it.
As to there having been equal irritation on both
sides, in the negotiations between the iwo• Govern-
silents, that be must absolutely deny. Ii had yes,i
terday been objected tb Ministers, that they had not
even published any declaration in answer to the Anse:
rican declaration of war. He must for himself de-
clare, that he never felt any irritation against Ame-
rica, or any wish but to preserve peace with her;
although he had felt it his duty for many years, both
with his tongue and pen, to defendavhat he-conceived'
the undoubted maritime rights of this. country, and
those interests on which be considered that the pros-
perity of our commerce, and the strength of our
rine, mainly depended. Where was the conciliatioq,
on the part of the American Government ? Did
Gentlemen forget the taunting mannerin which they
received Mr. Erskine's proposals for accornmoda-
don ; or the manner in which they had sent
Mr. Jackson out of the country ? Even when '
that great concession was mac last year, which the
Gentlemen on the other side had thought would heal
all—when the Orders ht Council were repealed, the
intelligence of the disposition in this country to repeal •
those Orders, was suet by the American Government

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The SPRAKER read a letter from Rear-Admiral Sfepford,
dated Cape Town, August 25, expressing his acknowledgments
for the Thanks voted to himself and the forces under his coin-
mend, for the naval transactions at Java.
Sir W. SCOTT presented a Petition from the University of
Oxford against the Catholic Claims.--Read, and ordered to lie on
the table.

Lord CASTLEREAGH made the usual motions, thit no pri-
vate Poltions should be received after the 18th of? December;
and :to private bill after the Bth day of March ; and that the
Petitions relating to contested Elections, should be deferred till
the meeting after the holidays, whirl' would be the brat week in
February.—Agreed to.
A Petition wat then brought up from Charles Wetherell and
Edward Kellerson, Esqrs. stating that they bad been returned by
` the majority of legal votes, to represent the Borough of Shaftes-
bury : and that the other Candidates were guilty of bribery.
The Petition was ordered to be taken into consideration on tke
ilth of February next.
Lord CASTLEREAGH made the usual motion for the ar-

sangement of the Orders and Notices.
Mr. WHITBREAD supposed that .the Motion was worded
„ precisely as was last year; hut he must again enter his protest
against this arrangement, at tending to throw too great power
into the hands of his Majesty's Ministers. He should cot take
the sense of the House upon it, but hoped that it would never be
• forgot, that every Member had the r ght to make a motion with-
out notice.
Lord MILTON followed to the same effect; observing, that
though the professed object of this departure from the ancient
custom was to facilitate business, yet it had rather tended to
cramp it.
. • Lord F'OLICESTONE gave notice of a motion for Friday, re-
specting the orders lately issued relating to the Ofacera of the
German Legion.
Mr. KENRICR gave notice of a aiptiou for the same day, re-
• litive to Inclosures.
On ate mutton or IlitreiVZlAlLTOtt, II Committee of expiring
laws was appointed.
• Mr. JEBB gave notice, that he should early bring in a Bill to
repeal the statute of Charles, granting a settlement to £lO a year.
Sir W. CURTIS brought up a Petition from the Clergy of Lon-
don, incorporated into the society of Sion College against the ca-
tholic Claims.—Ordered to lie on the table.
Mr. LOCKHART presented a Petition from the City of Ox-
ford against the Catholics.—Ordered to Ile on the table.
Mr.,LOCKHART pledged himself to support the prayer of
the Petition.
• .

ADDRIPAS.
On the question of the bringing up the Report of
the Address,
Mr. CREEVEY objected to it, till farther time
was given for the consideration of the subjects con-
tained in it. In the times of William and Ann, 5,0,
or 8 days were allowed between the speech and the
answer. Under the present circumstances, such a
delay was more important than ever : but it was not
merely on account of the variety of matter, being no
less than three wars, that he protested against the
..arly introduction of report, but on account of a
most remarkable omission. He alluded to that part
,of the speech which spoke of the supplies. It did
not say one word with respect to the revenue, nor to
the state of the cc mmerce of the country : a cool and
iskEatiCdeinand of assistance was-made, unaccompa-
nied with one syllable of financial statement. To
spew that such a style was perfectly new, he would
beg the Clerk to read the part of the speech to which
lhe alluded, and the corresponding parts of two other
speeches. Itwas not his intention to go through all
the speeches which had been made by all our kings.
• Laugh J—He should content himself with re-
ferring to two,—one delivered at the beginning of the
French war in 1794, the other in the year 1804.
(The Clerk here read the three passages, the last two
.of which were fuller on tie subject of finance, than
the speech of the present Session.) He thought that
the House would agree with him that these state:
ments were much more satisfactory than the present,
which appeared to him a novel and extraordinary
,method of making a demand. Was it possible that
. the Prince could be acquainted with the finances, and
the commercial distress of the country ?Obit would,
in his opinion, be much better to acquaint the Regent
with this distress, than to quietly and. immediately
obey the novel suggestion contained in his speech,.
Great caution was necessary on this subject, as it was
impossible that the expenditure of the country could
proceed on its present enormous scale. This had
been allowed both by Mr. Tierney and the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer : and it was not a little extra-
ordinary that the latter, after the declarations which
he bad made, and the hints be had thrown out as to a
tax on capital, should not have thrown a word into
the speech relative to the finances of the country.—
For his own part, he knew that the finances were in
such a state, that the annuitant was robbed of one-
third of his income for the lake of the Bank and not
for the sake of his Country; and that one day this
system must end in the annihilation of all the funded
property in the country. For this reason he protested
against any further advance of money without better
cause alleged he protested against the new mode of
coming before Parliament at the beginning of. wit
Session with such demands it was indeed, an a
mere farce and Parliamentary parade, in which two

teraedy for the erns that the emetry, hew
only presented it to the consideration of the
Auld in doing that, who would say that he had
improperly or unconstitutionally? Does the HO4. Gentleman forget that the King, in his spermfel
the last nineteen years, had uniformly introduced ;he
'question of peace, and expressed his sincere widii,4
the occurrence of every opportunity which
lead to the enjoyment of its blessings. For hitolc;
Part, it was hit earnest wish to have this most
portant of all questions argued, connected as it was
with the distresses and privations of the people. He
was not, more than ;ay man, but certainly not
than any other man, desirous of upholding the ham*
of the country, nor was he. inclined to make le 1,.
orifices for the interest and safety of the empire; Ix:
when he saw the Government in hands, which nide,
himself nor the Right Non. Gentleman oppreke
(Mr. Canning) could trust .—when he viewed the%
possessed of full power, without the slightest ill%
of public confidence, he could trot help wisniozood
wishing sincerely, that the Prince Regent should
plainly and fairly told the dangers to which their id.
ministration exposed the nation. He agetod pitit
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Robinson) in the view he
had taken of the effects of the battle of Salesloca;
but when such glorious proofs were held up of ell
consummate skill of Lord Wellington, and the Weer
and gallantry of the British army, was he not entitled
to ask, what had been done by the Universal slush',
(Nation ? When they read the account of the Was
of Salamanca, was it not rather distressing to *ma
account of units, and tens, and hundreds, and thou.
sands slain or wounded of British and French, eat
of the Spaniards, two or four ?—(Hear, hcar,
the Opposi(ion):—Howeas this to be accounted for!
For whom were they fighting ? Whom were,tbey
assisting ? The Spaniards was the answer; and di,
lin the heat t and centre of
that for witeak
would be natural-12i txpect, tor every nunsne
British slain, we should see a thousand Spaniardi;
and fur every thousand, ten thousand. But how we
the fact ?So many British—so many Portuguese..
Spaniards—two ! The Guerillas, he would be told
were active, and he admitted their activity, and*
lity to a certain extent, when under British contrtel;
but he was convinced, that though they did n
mischief to the enemy, they were hot quite hanks
to the population of Spain ; and if Lord Wellingee
was withdrawn, their resistance would be a ea
imagination, without a shadow of hope. With
or adequate means, he had the highest opinim4
what might be effected by the British under sucbt
leader as the Marquis of Wellington ; but what
to be done ? They were told, that peace was*n
be rnade with that man who directed the Gam,

by ea latimperate message to the Leedature, laylag
down ail the principles ofthe Duke of Bassano's letter,
and even insisting that the American Rag should make
free goods. Now, he would ask the Noble Lord, was'
be prepared to give up what we considered our mari.
time rights,—the right of blockading our enemy's
ports, and the right of taking British seamen out of
American vessels ? If he was not prepared to mate '
these concessions which the American Government :
insisted on, how was that Government to have been
conciliated? Mr. Stephen concluded by defending,
at some length, the principles upon whichhe had al-
ways supported the Orders in Council.
Mr. WILBERFORCE concurred in most of the
i observations which had been made by the Honour.
able Gentleman. As to peace, however desirable it
was in itself, it would be better that it should pro-
ceed from the act of the Government laying hold of
the first favourable opportunity for effecting it, than
that it should appear forced ulna them by any pub-
lic cry ftom without doors, or even from any vote of
that House. If the Government were compelled to
slake peace from the state of the country, that peace
could hardly be made on such honourable terms as I
if the enemy believed that it was, not from absolute
necessity, but from their own inclination that our
Government was induced to offer terms of peace.
Mr. PONSONBY said, that he did not consider
that in voting for that Address, he was at all pledged.
to support any particular measures of his Majesty's
i Ministers. About a century ngo, when the House,
did consider themselves so pledged by their address,
they took some time to deliberate upon it. At_pre-,
sent, however, addresses were merely echoes of the
speech, and he considered them as so merely com.
plimentary, that it was not worth discussing them
much ; especially as regular occasions for discussion
would afterwards occur. He really considered the
voting an address, in consequence of a speech from
the throne, as much a matter of course and cusap-
mary compliment, as the signing" your very humble
servant" to a letter. Such a subscription did not
pledge any man to any particular service; neither
did the voting a complimentary address pledge any
man to the approbation of any specific measure which
Ministers should think proper to bring forward.
Lord CASTLEREAGH felt much obliged to
the Right Honourable Gentleman for the course he
had thought proper to pursue. It would certainly
be much moie convenient to discuss those subjects
regularly, whenever Ministers should propose any
measures in consequence of what had been stated in
the speech. He should for the present forbear from
, all discussion ; and he rose to defend Ministers from
the supposition that they had at any time given an
opinion, that America had a right to a particular
revocation of the Orders in Council with respect to
her, on *account of that French document which pre-
tended to be a revocatit n of the Berlin and Milan
Decrees with respect to America.
Mr. WHITBREAD felt himself called upon to
rise, in consequence of some observations which had
fallen from the Honourable Gentleman who was the
late Member for Yorkshire (Mr. Wilberforce). He
certainly did mean to redeem the pledge he had given
of bringing the subject of America before the consi-
deytion of the House. He perceived that he should
have again to contend with an Honourable and Lear-
ned Gentleman (Mr. Stephen) whose tongue and
whose pen had been ably and diffusively exercised
on this subject for many years. His pen, he believed,'
had been exercised on it long before he came into
Parliament ; and perhaps it was that which had
brought him into Parliament.—(4 laugh.) His
tongue, however, had been silent on that occasion
when the Orders were abandoned. It was true he
had been seen often in the House about that time,
but very close conversation had been noticed betweeni
him and a Noble Lord (Castlereagh). It was ge.
nerally understood, that that Noble Lord had been;
set to watch him, to prevent him from speaking ; as•
on a former occasion Lord Wellington had been ap.
pointed to watch another Learned Dector, to pre-
vent him from speaking. The cause for this restraint.
being however now removed, he would again have an
opportunity of speaking at large on the ,wisdom and
policy of the Orders in Council. He was sure that
he would fight hard, Eke a lion in the toils. A Right
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Rose) who might be
considered the venerable Patriarch of the Treasury
Bench, (a laugh), in talking of the tax upon capital
which had been mentioned by the Cittancellor of the
Exchequer last Session, wished to throw off the blame
from the shoulders of Lis own friends upon an unfot-
tunate Bishop some hundred miles distant (a laugh).
This did not appear to him quite fair ; for although
this scheme might have been the natural child of the
Reverend Prelate (a laugh), certainly it appeared to
have been the adopted child of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer. As to his being singular in his moving
for Peace in that House—when first he came into
that House, that great man to wlfose authority he
principally bowed (Mr. Fos) made a specific motion
to address his Majesty for peace. The Right Hon. ,
Gentleman himself (Mr. Wilberforce) had once,
when he thought his friend Mr. Pitt not sufficiently
disposed for peace, brought forward a motion, in the
House for the same purpose. His Right Honour-
able Friend (Mr. Ponsonby) had observed, that the
.only measure of the kind, with respect to an address
'to the Crown recommending negociations for peace,
was carried in the American war. The fact was
, certainly so; and the fact was rendered peculiarly
striking by the melancholy recollection that it was
carried at the end of the war—a war most disgrace.
ful and ruinous, because conducted by Ministers
" who . were alike weak in, ability and poweiful in
means. It was indeed carried after a long series of
misfortunes, miseries, and humiliations, and when
the servants of the Crown, its confidential advisers,
and the Prince himself, -had been deaf to the voice,
the appeal, the entreaties of the people. The same
miserable system was, however, no less pursued in
, the present crisis—and Ministers even more imbecile,
more withoutsconfidence, yet noa less in the power of
doing. mischief than those that wielded the Govern.
1 meat during the calamitous war with America were;
with the Prince whom they counselled, impenetrable
to the prayers, and deaf to the supplications of the
almost united population of his Majesty's sublease.*
—Was he then to be rebuked, as intending by his
I amendment to the Address for peace, to throw the
1 safety and honour of the country at the foot Of the
whichcen
ciuerheciPuofndoFuranbtecdelyt poliessemserser-diyofenrCifreeseCienqUileuiryriatt
discussion ; and instead of bringing f°l-war4 fer4b *

s

ment of France ; but that opinion he was most mai.
ors to eradicate, for in the course of nature, pests
with him they must make. He would then do
Mr. Fox had done in 1795, he would openly and di.
rectly make such propositions as could be offered,
and then the result would he known directly. Or
the whole, he wished to shew that he was not a tee
man, but that he was treading in the steps of
Fox, who was in himself that principle on -
!acted, embodied and personified, and whoa
had they been fdllowed, would have •
country from the alternative to which she •
reduced. From year to year they bad been
to relax in their demands; and from year to
enemy had arisen, until at length, if on tlw
can question, they would come to the worst, cacti
manufacturing and labouring poor would burst this
doors, and compel them to make puce on the he
iterms they could obtain.
Mr. WILBERFORCE explained.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUZI
agreed in the opinion, that every practicable maw*
ante and means calculated to promote the sacces
of the Peuinsula war should be given by Gown.
ment. With respect to financial means, he cold
state, that no possible supply had been withheld. h
the year 1809, the sum of A 12,800,000 had boa
granted ; and daring the eleven correspoedirg
months of the present yeah no less than eleven mil•
liens and an half had been applied to the services and
emancipation of Spain. He had been accused d
having thrown out, at the end of las;Sessioosanido
of proposing a tax upon capital. The fact waiting
he had done no such thing : he has merely argued,
that were the country to be absolutely reduced w
the necessity of submitting to a tax upo.. capitals&
people would bear it with resignation and cheerful•
ness, rather than submit to the ruin and degraded.*
with which they were threatened by an insatiable
and insolent enemy. He was reproached with.*
cealing the state of our commercial commons; ba
he would say, although the returns were noting*
made up to the latest moment, that the trade gee
country was very considerable ; and that.=
according to the commerce of the port d
of that of the whole kingdom, while the aro
wire
last year but eight millions and an la. dielliwele,_
this year thirtee&millions. They were, idea. Wm
than of any year except in 1909. It was atill
matter of real satisfaction, that in a reveane9l.7,
millions sterling, there appeared but a dens!"
890,000.
Mr. W. SMITH expressed his gratifiesties d
'taming, that the idea which, to his own knorielie
prevailed in many parts, of an intended tax spew
pital, was altogether unfounded.
Mr. CANNING was not at all desirous to Oaf
the debate; but felt it his duty to set himself 011/4
against some misconstructions of the sentisaeple
had delivered on the preceding night. Hisebril,
to the manner of carrying on hostilities against ail"
rica was not in reality to the peculiarity of
but to the want of a considerable portion of
vat and military strength on the coasu of
which might be enabled to effect real serviCne
.hermetically seal her ports. Instead of dispatelog
a force of that description, Sir John Warne, r's
droll had been actually, made up in the Moo 111-.
bouts there ; and the only service performed by
ships under his command, was the conveying er •
flag of truce to the Executive Government of,
rica. When he had used the phrase, that oar,
merce was swept from the seas by the Aid*
he evidently could be only understood es
that when the relative naval means of the two.
tries were compared, the captures made by 4.
Americans were much soperior to ours, as we
one rhmeaod ships of war, and they had
to contend with so vast a superiority on OUT
wriPkie would mot Mafia the Hoeft I* refuting