Star.
London, England, 1830-11-16 00:00:00

NAVAL INTELLIGBIVeI.

Maus Aswan Tuts Dar—Dublin, 1 ; Waterford, 1 ; Guernsey and
Jersey, 1; France, 1.
The True Blue, Carva, from Woodbridge to Uverpool, struck the
pier in going into Yarmouth on Saturday night, and sunk. Cargo
discharging, with much damage. Crew saved.
The Evadne, Swan, from Sunderland to London, was totally lost on
Sunday night, en the Cross Sand. Crew saved.
The Aurora, Moser, from Lonenberg for St. Lucia, was abandoned
on the 7th ult. in lat. 23, king. 69.
The Hopewell, Parent, front London to Jamaica, will be taken into
Portsmouth harbour, to discharge and dock.
DIAL, Nov. 15.—Wind W.S.W. equally.
PORTSMOVI3I, Nov. 15.—Wind S.W. squally.—Arrived the Ada,
Blair, from Quebec, having been on shore. Saied his Majesty's ship
Galatea, for St. Vincent's. Arrived his Majesty's ship Badger, from
a cruise.

FA LUOUTIT. Nov. 14. —Wind &W. to W.&W......Arrived doe Bri-
tannia, Madden, from Seville.

Nov.
Bouv N oi, lS.—Arrived the Commodore, Mortimer, and Con.
cord, Bond, from Newfoundland.

Lsexarool., Nov. 14. A rrieed the Mary, Grayson, from Der-
ide. ; Industry, Cannon, from Demerara ; Susan, Waters, from St.
Domingo; Apollo, Wakehouse, from Newfoundland; and Sarah Ann,
Metcalf, from Alexandria.

BIALGATI Nov. 15.—Arrived off the port, the Rebecca, Smith,
from Quebec.

Pools, Nov. 1 S.—Arrived the !Camels, from —.
Gurassev, Nov. IL—Arrived the Renown, Cunningham, from
Oporto; and Stockton, Prague, from Bourdeaus.
Janne, Nov. H.—Arrived the Polpeto, Vibert, and Day, La
Penni. from Gaspe..
SCAZIOLOUOM, Nov. 14.—The Providence, Young, has been got
off the Main, with con►iderabk damage.

BRIGHTON. Nov. 14.

The Princess AUGUSTA, royal suite, and household, were
preeent at Divine Service in the King's Chapel this morning.
The officiating Minister was the Rev. Mr. EV ritARD.
The Princess AUGUSTA pursues her carriage ride before
dinner, when the weather is not too outrageously repulsive.
Yesterday, owing to a south-easterly wind, which blew greed
guns, her Royal Highness did not leave the Palace.
The amiable LAN DG It ♦VI X E, not entirely free from the
weakness left by her late accident, takes airings in her low-
wheeled chair about the enclosed Palace grounds and gardens,
The Duke of DEVONSHIRE, the Earl of BESBO*OUGH,
&c. are among the many who have resently left their names
at the Palace.

Lead ORFORD, and Mr. and Lady SARAH PUNSONBY,this event when it occurred, and for th'at reason the bill 'did not
provide for that possible contingency. Tie next point to which he
are arrived at the Albion. called the attention of the house wagoner)! no inconsiderable importance.
Miss FOOlll played several of her favourite characters at They Proposed (wrote regent. and the question war, whether the re_
gent should have an assisting council? If governed by precedents, they
the Theatre last night, and tho house was brilliantly and might decide that•arsistants were nectrrary. They did not. however.
very numerously visited, rely much on ancient precedents, because the change in time and cis.
hen cumspurces yizrstieledi::te reasons which requited assistants on former
The King will ld a Levee to-morrow, at his Palace at merrier's" were two: one in the latter end of
St. James's. the reign of George II (171 I), and the other the regency in the
Their Majesties entertained a select party to dinner yes- reign ntOsorr 111. The treble and learned lord was not influenced
terday, at the Palace at St. James's. The Queen's private the
ion,
peasedereen .07.eheHe considered
tat it expedient awne to give
in to
be being,
regency
band attended in the eve in and performed several pieces opinion, beneficial to the Goan% itutinu On that principle hiegilajesty's
in her Majesty's apartments. mildews objected to the council of regency. From the best consideration
give to the subject, they were
• The Duchess of Glocester and the Princess Sophia visited 'yid averse to such a course. He
did aot mean to sa it might not be proper to have in some
the Queen yesterday. eases. A Regent might be unfortunately selecteda council
whose influence
' The Spanish Minister bad an interview with the Earl of and power home enormous, and his private interest great, and
Aberdeen yesterday, at the Foreign Office. , peebsps diagerons to the State; consequently a council might be
reetarty—but that was not the care now. He bad reed the debates in
The present King has dined, in his Palace, during the
Ph and it appeared that the arguments preponderated against a
first three months of his reign, upward' of 21,000 persons,
ef . Looking at the usual formation of a Council of
including domestics; but, what is very extraordinary;.the Berasy, of fourteen perronr, he was not disposed to sew
kitchen bills for the same period are less in amount thawdosen. rairch a I. It appeared to him that the Princess Regglog
14%.*„. be unlimited, and subject only to the advice of the Ministers at
of •the cnrresponding quarter in the reign of Geer .
,y. These
was
moths,
subject eta
gem mum,
and hp ems,
Court Journal. , •. .• the Down
that be could not approach it without goat peM~lit.
We understand that during the present week Government was said, what are we to do If then be an "boo •'the
bas made an arrangement with the Railway Company for 100 demist t With respect to a posthumous ehnii
.ths wear sad
the cOnveyeace of troops in cues of emergency, so that a "831.11 kid had as beaudall inlaying that such a cailk Oft Illidleht
lit yes honk hams entitled to the mown. That was no Mira, mg
11101140 which by the 'tonal mode of marching by divisions,4 thee oat. bet dam was tifissadt, la what were rho.
was three days upon the road, wid now be transported in two • interwoven between the &wisest the aoseeknathi birth of the irsitt
hours ! Maw/eater Courier. . ~....1 No instance of a posthumous heir to the crown was to be found in our

; •• • - r

hi.sry. TI n:,ly case was found in the Monty of the house of flour•
boo. Henry V. of France, the presumptive heir, was Regent at the
Meth of a Prince, which became King. The child died at the end of
28 days, and the Regent was eroweed. Charles the Fair left a child in
a similar situation ; but those were events governed by the law of other
countries. It had been said in law, the child unborn could not be
seized with the crown. The crown could never be in abeyance. The
crown never died. The child unborn could not be seised with the
frown; it must vint in the heir apparent. He mentioned there
points for the consideration of their Lordships. There were two
courses one the course followed in the cue of the King to
France. They could appoint a Regent, and the best ptoceiding,
in his opinion. was. •o allow the Regent to ezet...eisc tl:c
tions of royalty in the name of the presumptive lie:r. In
the use of real ptoperty, the seisin in law was nut in the heir onbt,iii,
but in the heir appal:en:. Having said thus much, he begged to add,
that the period tot legislating respecting the government of a posthu-
mous cinld might occur wjaqp the event happened, therefore they had
only provided that Ia the event of the birth of a posthumous &ail, 'lett
her:present majesty, the queen, should he guardian and regritt
the minority.—(Hear, hear.) Having stated the outline of the bill, the
noble and learned lord. observed, that the detail might be di.cussed
upon the second reading.Thc short view of it war this : —On the demise
of his majesty without issue, they proposed to make her Royal Highness
the Dueness or Kent guardian and regent for the Princess Victoria ;
and in the event of a posthumous child. then the regency of tke Duchess
of Kent will cease, and be in her majesty during the minority of het
child. The noble and learned lord concluded by moving the hill
to be read a first time.

Lord ELDON approved of the statements made by the noble w
learned lord, and recommended their lordships to be unanimow ti.
giving their support :o the measure. The observations he might hate
to offer upon the minute points of law, Le should restive until the se.
cond reading.
The bUI, entitled an Act fer providing a Regency in case the Clown
should descend to the Princess Vieloria, «as then read the ant
without a dissentient voice.
The House than Adjourned.

DOUSE OF CO'.IN NS. Nay. II
The SPEAKER stated that he had received a letter from Mr.lfodg.
son, artiouncing that he did not intend to proceed with the Vi'igan elec-
tion petition. Older for considering the petition discharged.
PetMo.'s were received complaining of undue returns for Galway
(county), Carrickfergus, Seaford, Dumbarton, Clare (county), Truro,
Linlithgow, and Durham (city). Ordered (nominally) to be considered
in January next—other days a ill he fixed after the Christmas recess.
A petition was presented from Southwark, for the repeal of the Game
and Corn Laws, by Mr. CURTEIS. Ordercd to be printed.
A petition was presented from the Royal Burgh of Stirling, agaimat
negro slave:v.
Mr. R. DLTNDAS ttresented a petition from Ipswich, for :be repeal
of the duty on sea-borne coal.
Twcnty petitions from places M Cornwall, one front Ply muu.h, one
from Bury St. Edmund's (by Mr.Tyrrell), and many from other places,
were presented for the repeal of the laws supporting negro slavery.
Mr. MOORE gave notice that on the 23d inst. he would move for
the repeal of parts of the 38 Gen. 111. respecting assets ; and to extend
the amended law to Ireland.

TAXATioIc.
Mr. EVANS presented a petition for the repeal of the unmerited
pensions, for reduced taxation. repealing taxes on the necessaries of life,
and imposing a well regulated property tax instead thereof, and for par..
liamentary reform. Ile thought there ought to be some ray of hope ;vat
the state of the representation would be considered, and that was the
more requisite, after the first Minister's declaration on this subject.
He agreed decidedly with the petitioners, as to the repealing of the
taxes on the necessaries of life, and imposing a well.regulated prevr.y
tax in lieu thereof, if the revenue were required. The petitio:t was from
Sheepshead—(a laugh) —in Leicester.--Ordered to he printed.
Mr. BELL trusted that the Government would be induced to alter
its intentions as to the duty on sea-borne coals. (Bear, hear )
The question was of the greatest importance to the shippin., interests;
at.d he hoped the Chancellor of the Exchequer would see the propriety
of repealing the duty altogether.—(Hear, hear.)—The petition was
from Coal Ptoprietors on the river Tyne, far the repeal of the coal duty.
—Ordered to be printed.
Lord STANLEY presented ninety-five petitions from places in liar—
cashirei against negro slavery.
Several members took their oaths and their seats.
A petition was presented:from Hythe, complaining of an undue elec-
tion for that place, and a similar one from Carlow, by Lord Uxbridge.
Mr. COKE presented petitions from Simnel, and several places
of Norfolk against negto slavery.

IRZLAMD.
lut Mr. O'CONNELL presented a hien from several tenants of ab-
sentee Noblemen in Ireland, corn Ming of distress, and praying for
the introduction of poor laws. hey were inhabitants of Westmeath,
and they complained of the conduct of the agents of the said absectre
Noblemen, that they had been inveigled to become Ribband.men.
The Marquis of CHANDOS said he had to complain of the Merv.
ben for Waterford, in presenting petitions without first ascertaining the
truth of them. His noble Relative's agent was incapable of the conduct
attrihuted to him. Persons should not thus hold up public men to pub.
lie indignation.
Mr. O'CONNELL replied that he nets had deserved reproof less.
He had ascertained that the signatures were genuine. and he had
forwarded the petition to a noble lord, the relative of the nobleman men.
tioned in the petition. What more courtesy could he drew ? The pe.
titioners prayed for what they were entitled to ask for r_ and he un.
derstood they were prepared to prove their allegations. La the noble
marquis call for any enquiry by Committee, or otherwise. he would
support it.
Lord NUGENT confirmed the statement, as to the petition having
hero sent to bim.
Petition ordered to lie on the table.
SZPEAL OF THE UNION.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from the parish of Clandal.
kin, county of Dublin, for the repeal of the Union. The Member for
Dublin having mentioned that the citizens, ke. were against the repeal,
he wished to state that there was now a requisition in Dublin to call a
meeting for the repeal signed by upwards of 10.000 persons.—Ordered
to be printed.
CLERK OF THE COUNCIL.

Mr. STANLEY asked whether it was intended to fill up the office
again of the Clerk of the Council ; Mr. Buller having died yesterday
afternoon.

Sir H. PEEL replied that he had not heard the fact mentioned, (here-
fore he was not prepared to give any answer.
A petition wu presented from Hawkhurst for the repeal of 1/14.1
malt duty.—Ordered to be printed.
Sir J. GRAHANI presented a petition from Cockermouth for a rt.
form in Parliament. Also nee from the same place Lgainst negro
slavery.—Ordered to he printed.
Mr. S. RICE presented a petition from Limerick for an equalisation
of sugar duties.—Ordered to be printed.
Petitions against the election returns were presented from London.
deny, Huntingdon, Cokraine, and Stamford.—Ordered to be con.idered
after Christmas. •
Lord NiOrt PETH, in presentirg a petition asked whether it was not
practised at any of our colonies, to enforce the troops ro observe any re.
ligious ceternomes of which they might not approve? The petition was.
from a parish, against wry such compulsion.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY felt assured that tl-.e petition was
founded in mistake. He could not undertake confidently to say that
not any troops at any of our garrisons were compelled to attend to re.
ligious ceremonies of which they did not appro,c. •
Petition ordered to be printed.
EMORY IN SCOTLAND.
Sir R. FERGUSON presented a petition from ('urea 'Sr eefi-rm.
He was surprised at the language of the Duke of ;
it showed that his grace was ignorant of the pittierts or th,- «run.
try, for never was there so strong a feeling in favour of referto.—
( Hear, hear.)
Mr. KENNEDY said. as this was the first reform petition from
Scotland, he begged to say, that the desire for a parliamentary re-
form in that country was very strottl. He 'lid not approve of the
prayer fur ballot—but he was tot I -aliame•ntury reforn. in Scollatd most
certaiulv.—Petition ordered to be premed.
Mr. HUME presented sesenei similar petitions from Arbnath.
Breclun, Perth, and Stockport, all desuit4 also ballot, which it deed
was the desire of every rarliamentary reformer in Scotland. He trusted
that reform would be granted ; that men would not he driven to i!espe.
ration. He also presented a petition from Brechin, eumplair.irir
taxation.

Mr. DUNI/AS said he was well acquainted with Fcctbuid. and he
denied that there was any ttlth gtntral ftelingin favour of the baPot
or of reform.
31r. KENNEDY repeater:, that the feeling was very general for
reform ; but be sieuld be satisfied with the elitism; again:-t or
for reform.
Sir C. FORBES temarkid. that such an allegation did nor come very
well from the honoutable member ter 31indleost: ; he would uth him,
it theillast time he was returned to Parliament, previcus o ti e pre-
sent session, if he had not been returned for tire of me n:cHt
Isserupt burghs that existed, and had he failed in him election for Mid.
[4llessz, if he would not hare bete constrained to tall back upon the
`aft burghn.
Mr. HU Maid, that the election wait confined to a ow 4 the heads
albs diehrent trades in the %nth*, troth whom the 'Town Council or
opopoosdis was as it were self.tieeted ; and (rem e..ch Town Coined
wag alialasted a dele.rate. who alone voted ; the peep!. bad nothing to
do wish its • and Ibis it was they complained of the estruption that ix.
,seed. The bona:fable Wont bed taunted him 'bait( big remelt for
Arbroath the 'would tall the hon. baronet, that the last tim, he (11 .
Muse) was returned for these burgles, that they bad gives h:m a pro-
mise, sod the day atter they bad also prontioeti *uppers to deelh,4 r_in_
moo i and the whole *owe was in an uproar for days, and Pt became
olotaury to bring in the military. It was to .oro•ti the entitinued elan. •
.r...b,
of such esmanotiltas that a reform in the mode of election in
IA was to be drifted. Tne honourable metnt. I fee tdinburab
• •

i

1111
14

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THE CIVIL LIST.

lard saitt- \that the people of Scotland were not desirous of re.
• tohn fit the mode of elections, and that they were opposed to voting by
ballot. When the hon. member made the assertion, he might perhaps
speak the sentiments of the thirty or forty individuals who returned him
"fol. thtecity of Edinburgh ; but he (Mr. Hume) would very much
what the hon. gentleman would agree to have that point decided by
in Scotland, and he would soon find, that if voting by ballot had
been introduced into that country, he would have been tha,last parson
whom the people'of Edinburgh would have returned to represent them in
0! , parliament; and he hoped that the peoplewould scan have that opportunity.
• • Mr. DUNDAS remarked that the opposite benches were generally
vier ignorant of the statements they advanced, and he thought it ad.
• violable that the hon. member for Middlesex would be better informed
on points before he brought them forirard in the house. The honour-
.tible member then explained in detail the mode of election, to prove that
although only the delegates voted, that in point of fact the elections were
• really popular elections.
Sir JAMES GRAHAM alluded 'to the charge of general ignorance
that had fallen from the Honourable Member on the other side, and ex-
pressed an opinion that the Honourable Member himself had merited a
portion of his own imputation. The last time that the people of Sot.
land had an opportunity of expressing their public opinion on the sob.
jet.: was in 1828, when in one district not less than 70,088 bonus.
holders had petitioned against the mode of election. He (Sir Jams
Graham) was confident that the Hon. Member would not find Me
persons in Scotland who were satisfied with the present mode of election.
Mr. KENNEDY said that the hon. member for Edinburgh hod
raid that his election was popular because the Xi who returned the mem.
her were elected from the people : but how were they elected P Of the
33, seventeen are selt.elected, so that, therefore, the hon. tassobsr's
reasoning fell to the ground.
Mr. DUNDAS replied that his reasoning stood as firm as ever.
Mr. HUME said that nineteen out of the thirty-three were self.
elected, and it was true that fourteen were elected by leet, but they
would have no weight against the majority of nineteen—so that the
• people of Edinburgh had, in fact, no more voice in the return of the
Hon. Member than the people of Japan. (A laugh.)
A Message was brought up from the Lords, requesting copies of Its.
ports of Committees, and the evidence taken before that House on the
-tate of the poor in Ireland, on the tobacco trade, and on the coal trade.
—The copies were ordered to be transmitted.
PETITION AGAINST THE "MSlllOlOl' TN! WZSIDiII TOR DIIXIDZI.
Mr. STEWART WORTLEY moved that the petition ageing his
return, which stood for the 9d day of December, should be postponed,
tin account of the great distance from whence he bad to bring his sal.
fence, of which he had a great deal to produce. He assigned as •
reason for his making the request, that he had been told no petition wee
ro be preferred ; and he had been thus thrown off his guard, and hod
been taken by surprise.
Sir C. FORBES opposed the motion of the honourable member, sod
said that no evidence peculiarly necessary for the merits of the ease lay
even,within the compassof a nutshell. There were five im
Dundee, St. Andrews, Forfar, and Cupar, these burghs inil&enrt
the casting votes In elections ; but it so happened that at present the
burgh of Dundee was disfranchised by an interdict of the Court of Ban
sion. The burgh of Forfar had the casting vote in this foetuses; hot
as there were only four burghs instead of Ave to vote, the gondol was,
• whether anything like a casting vote could exist?
Mr. RIDLEY proposed that all the election petitions should lie over
till after the Christmas holidays.
• Colonel FreousoN, Mr. C. W. Wren, and Mr. Pitutut, opposed
the postponement.
Mr. STEWART WORTLEY replied, and strangers were ordered
to withdraw.
The motion was afterwards withdrawn without a division.
Vans IN SURREY.
On the motion being put from the Chair, that the house do take into
consideration the Civil List,
Mr. G. H. SUMNER begged leave to ask the Hoc. Secretary for the
Home Department if it was hie intention to strengthen the power of the
magistrates, to call out an extra constabulary force in the counties
where the outrages were being committed
Sir R. PEEL said that he spent four or five hours every day en-
deavouring to discover the perpetrators of these diabolical outrages,
and it was his opinion that military, or calling out the yeomanry,
would not be effective ; nothing appeared to hint to be capable to com-
prehend the outrages but a vigilantloal force. But be should be happy
to hear any suggestions on the matter; no expense ought to be spared
• to bring the perpetrators to justice. He t that associations formed
in the neighbourhood would be the mat effectual means of preserving
the property.
Mr. DENISON lamented the existence of what the hon. secretary
had truly designated abominable outrages. He had been through the
counties where they did exist, and he could assure the house that there
was nothing like disloyalty among the people; they were dissatisfied
with his Majesty's ministers. and they were disappointed and dissatisfied
with the speech which the ministers had put into the mouth of his
Majesty, and with the speech that had been made by the Duke of Wel-
lington elsewhere. The people wanted retrenchment, and their dissatis-
faction has been increased by what has been doing in the civil list. Re
would recommend ministers, that when they put down the spirit of out.
rage among the people, that they should remove the cause by retrenching.
Lot them take off the oppressive taxes on industry and landlords, that
they might be enabled to lower their rents to the farmers, who would
then be enabled to increase the wages of their labourers.
Mr. HUME read a series of resolutions passed at a Meeting in Mid-
dlesex, the purport of which was, that the want of reform was the
cause of all the dissatisfaction that existed. This was cot the voice of
one parish, but the testimony of every parish in Middlesex. He en-
treated the Ministers, if they would spare the lives of his Majesty's sub-
jects, that they would meet the wishes of the people upon this point.
The present Ministers were the cause of all the evils that existed, and
one salutary act at their hands, by altering their conduct, would do more
towards restoring tranquillity than any net of Parliament for the sup-
pression of the incendiaries that could be introduced into the houses
Sir R. PEEL replied with great warmth. He did not believe that
the hon member for Middlesex could mean what he said, that his Ma-
jesty's ministers were the cause of the abominable outrages. Was it
wise of the hon. gentleman to make such an speedos, and to mix up
the two questions together, of the outrages with the dissatisfaction of the
people ? The lion secretary concluded with stating that magistrates bad
sufficient power to call out an extra constabulary force.
Mr. lIUME wished to know what part of his speech had caused so
much irritation in the hon. secretary ?
Sir R. PEEL replied that the hon. gentleman had said that so lug
as ministers acted as they were doing, that no act of Parliament would
be of any avail to put down the outrages.
Mr. HUE denied that he used such an expression, or an expression
capable of such construction be had said that no act of parliament
would be so salutary as the alteration of the conduct of ministers.
Sir R. PEEL thought the observation wu very ill timed.
Mt. G. H. SUMNER did not think that the people were at all im-
pressed with the causes that had been assigned by the hon. member for
Al iddlesex. He had had no idea of provoking any discussion when be
put the question to the hon. secretary, whether or not he meant to arm
tire magistrates with more power ?
Sir R. PEEL said. it was proper that the law on this point should
be understood. The hon. secretary then read an extract from the act of
parliament, which, in case of fire, riot, or felony being committed, or
about to be committed, empowered any two magistrates to call outa
number of constabulary force, and to keep them on duty for any length
of time, for which the constables were secured an allowance at the ex-
pense of the county for their services.

The House then went into Committee. '
Sir HENRY PARNELL said that he rose to propose as an amend.
to the resolution of Friday night, that a Sekct Committee be ap.,
pointed, for the purpose of examining into the details of the Civil List,
which that House had been called upon to vote to his Majsety ; for he
thought that If ever a tion was brought forward by the Minister'
of the Crown which adled for investigation, it was that which bad been
made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on the present occasion.
The statement of the Right Honourable Gentleman was windy
unintelligible; for although the account said that, with reference to
the Civil List of 1820, a saving of 85,0001. bed been effected, he
(Sir Hence Parnell) could not, with all the attention he had paid
the subject, discover how that saving was made, nor how so un-
founded a saving as 180,0001. had been effected. The amounts
had increased In complexity by the introduction of a elmsifica-
tion, which rendered it utterly impossible to Wad how any sating what.
ever had been made. Instead of 85,0001. all the saying that he could
discover did not amount to more than 27,0001; although every possible
pains had been taken to give the appearance of saving, when, in fact,
little or none bad been eatted.The amount of pensions contained in the
old Civil List was 95,0001 ; but although the present arrangement was
somewhat leas, it should be recollected that by the transfers that were
made, a sum of 21,0001. would be saddled upon another fund. (Hear,
hear.) There were also ineluded a sum of 40,0001. for the oillee;
that might become vacant, and 38,0001 for the reduction of
pensions I so that when these deductions were made from the
1110,0001 the saving would become manifest. There were, be-
sides theme, a great variety of errors in the statement, which
furnished ample ground for the inquiry. The 150,0001. reserved
for comiagencles had no reference whatever to the Civil List ; and
be thought that with such facts apparent on the face of the amounts, it
was a strong measure indeed to call upon the house to vote any such sum
of the public money as 970,0001. Ile wished it to be understood that ,
the object of his motion was not to deprive the Crown of that which '
was necessary for the maintenance of its comfort sad digni , but to
prevent the public money from being disposed of impro y (hear}
4
Out of the ten claws into which the civil list was di only three
related to the public or private expenditure of the king. e amount
applicable to his majesty was 400.0001. the ether 480,0001, befog la.
waded so meet demands of a public nature, pith which the monarch
had nothing to do; and the question was, whether the representatives
of the people, with Immix, fresh es dui, lips, would vote away in
large a stun witliont fall and ample mquiry (bear, host) P His modest
could net, be thoult., be resisted. Under the clams of penekes, irs
addition to 410 11, it was basteded to provide 2,1110,0001 foe tbe
Civil Listsof the i Wiwi Kingdom. This but in accorded with the

profession of retrenchment that had been made. (Hear, hear.) Some
reduction had been effected in theexpenditure under the class "Foreign
Ministers," but the details chewed that there was abundance of room
for further retrenchment in that class. Hitherto no inquiry whatever had
been made respecting the Civil List of Ireland, (hear;) and that of '
Scotland also required investigation. (Hear.) Besides the 109.0001.
granted to the late King, his Majesty also spent the hereditary
revenues, and out of 180,41001. only 110,0001. ever reached the
public puree. It was impossible that ministers could justify their hav-
ing adopted the Civil List of 1820, u that wu the most extravagant
arrangement that ever took place in this country. He thought also that
there would be a great saving in the separation of the sum allowed to
his Alsjesty from that applicable to other purposes. This plan would
at least render the matter pals. sod it melds opinion that the accounts
tor the year should be laid on the table before the supplies were voted.
In conclusion, the hon. baronet said that, although anxious to do that
which was necessary foe the maintenance of the comfort and dignity of
the Crown, yet that hon. members should listen to the demand of the
public, and support his tion.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said he still adhered
to his opinion, that it was advisable that the ministers of the crown
should submit to the house their statement of what they considered ne-
cessary for the support of the Civil List, and not to delegate that duty
to a committee of the house. If economy was the hon. baronet's object,
be felt confident that object would not be promoted by the appointment
of a committee. The bon. baronet had not stated whether he meant to
give the committee the power of sending for persons, papers, and re.
cords. (Sir H. Parnell said across the table that he did not.) Then
what advantage could be expect from the examination of the documents
in a committee, that be could not have from an examination of them
being laid on the table of that house ? Mr. Tierney. when be was cep.
pointed a member of such a committee, refused to attend, saying, the
appointment of a committee without power to examine witnesses was a
delusion to which be would not become a party. If he (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) had proposed a committee without power to examine
witnesses, he would be charged with an attempt at delusion. He could
not consent to such a committee. The honourable baronet also pro-
posed that the committee should simplify the mode of keepingthe pub-
lic accounts; and also to sell the lands of the Duchies—Lan and
Cornwall. Was it not evident that such a committee must, by the de.
lay in coming to any decision, greatly retard the settlement of his Ma-
jesty's civil list, a result it vu desirable it avoid. The hoe. baronet
had said be could not understand bow a saving of 85,0001 a year was
effected. 'The pap" be had laid on the table 'hewed It clearly. (Hear and
haghten) A -Comparison of the items of charge &hewed that there was
a dm saving on the civil list proposed for his present Majesty and the
civil list of his late Majesty of 85,4451 The bon. baronet's next ob-
ject for going into the committee was to ascertain bow the
could be reduced. The list of pensioas would be forthwith laid penceere
table, and the house would have the power of deciding on their fitness
quite as well as in a committee. He would only ask the house to refer
to antecedent periods, sod see bow small a proportion the present
list bears to its amount in former times. The Irish pension
n was now parsed to be reduced to 411,000 L before the union it
was 140,0001 l'he pension lists of England and Scotland have
also been much reduced. The bonomthle baronet's next object
was to examlne in the committee the salaries of foreign minis.
ten. Whv not maks the examination at present, and state his cooclu.
sloes to the house? He says they were greatly increased in 1820 ; but
they have been some years onaally decreasing. That charge has
been redarad every year, and the lest estimate is 25,0001. less than for ,
the last year. The baronet should take into consideration
the treater number of foreign ministers now employed to represent the
interests of this country. At the period the bon. baronet referred to,
the number was 17, now It was incensed to W. All these were neon.
nary, and all were supported now fee less than the 17 formerly. He must
deny what the honourable baronet said of the civil list of 1818. That
civil list, however was formed after the consideration of a corn.
mitten and if the honourable baronet's statements were correct,
we had a better chance of economy by not appointing a corn.
mitten The Honourable Baronet bad said that he considered it aFof
of extravagance that there was no debt incurred during the late re •
no doubt he would consider it so if debt had been incurred. ha;
course then could satisfy him ? (Hear, hear.) The Honourable
Baronet said the different charges in the Civil List should be kept
separate, and that the past practice was so bad that it should be
avoided. (Hear, ban) He could Not came In that opinion ; but if
the Honourable Baronet chewed the inentranieue of the present system,
sod how it could be changed with advantage, he should be ready to
make the change ; but he dim& die seasons in favour of the present
system prepooderaud. The Musemble Baronet said It gave the
tlwispcesol an oppontutity of saying that a million a year
was allowed his Majesty for Ms personal expenditure. He be.
lieved the public were not so igainene an this point as the honourable
baronet supposed. They all knew that hie Majesty provided for some
part of the public service out of his dvll lion But suppose the state.
meat was made as the hoes barest* wished, would not W•disposed pu-
mas take advantage of it, to saythet den was ball a mthion taken an.
malty for the personal expanseset Ihs Meese& ; and would not that
do more to east obloquy es she limennip than any ndeepreeentatio•
that could now take page? (Bear, and kirgdstm.) Oa all these grounds
be must glee his negative to the boa. batmen motion.
Mr. BANK= thftee a reference to a Quondam should have bees
preferred by the Minims theeteelvos.--(Hear, bra.) Since 1811,
there had been am, oe eight Committees ell the exposes of the Crown,
and they had rendered the hems of expeme much more intelligible than
formerly; and be could see no advantage In continuing mystery
(Hear, bear, The Commies. could investigate the subject more fully
than the Hotwe. Was the esplanades given by the Chanceller ot the
Exchequer so perfectly dew that it might not be made rose clear by a
Committee ? (Hese, Mr.) He certainly did not wish to give the
Committee mom anisegeti powers than was necessary; but though they
might not examine persons, great explenatioms might be given by his
Majesty's Minima, who would be members of the Committee, and a
body of useful inlimehiew would be led bakes the House. (Hear.)
Mr. CALCZAIPT NM his boo. friend had mentioned that many
committees hod bass egghead se examine the Civil Liss; but thee
had been no emesess on the secession of the Sovereign, and
that made a Mr iWnMlu. The Civil List of his late Majesty had
been settled in Mk and it was now dearly shown by his right ban.
friend, that them was a saving et 1114000 L besides the saving by the
Ming in of the Duke of Chem& @Hominess, which he could not say
arose from any eronornical areanimens. It was a matter of doubt
whether that put attire Civil List Add' applied to hie Majesty's dignity
and esmfort, shoal not be lemma hem the rest, and on that pan be
would own be bad not nude up his NMI.
Led ALTHORP said he add not allow any weight to the Chin.
cellar of thisExcbequa's that Mr. Tierney refused to sit as
a Committee on the Civil because they were not allowed to sm.
mine wheelies, because the present Ministers supported that Com.
mittee.--(Hear. bear.) Neither could he admit much to the argument
of the Right Hon. Gent. who spoke hie, that no Committee was appoint.
ed on the commencement of a sew reign, because that Right Hen. Oen.
was one of the 157 members who voted fee the appointment of such a
Committee at the comotenosment of the last reign.—(Haw, bear.)
He thought it better not to have the power to examine witnesses ro.
'pectin! the personal expenses of his Majesty; but if for the examina-
tion of other items such powers were necessary, the Reuse would
give them. He bad bestowed his best attention on the papers laid on
the table by the right bon gentleman, and could not make out the to.
vies he had mentioned. That the house should vote 970,0001 a.year
for the life of his Majesty without examinadon, was such a proposal as
he was surprised any gentleman could make (loud cheering.) After
the pledges which many of them bad made to their constituents of era.
soul, be thought they would betray their nut if they were to come
to such a vote without examination (boar.) He thought the other
branches of the public revenue ought to be sparated tram the personal
expenses of his Majesty, both to prevent mlmeprawtados, and that
they might annually come under the review of parliament (beer.)
Mr. C. W. WYNN said, it was time that an examination by a com-
mittee should take place before voting a civil list.. No committee yea
appointed at the commencement of the reign of George 111. because at
that period no separation of the demos on the atilt* bad taken place.
After Mr. Burke bed gado a aquatics debase several con.
miners Sad been appointed to examine the istidheM of the civil Lista
lie had the honour of sitting on more than one of them. In the pre.
sent case there could be no difficulty from any feelings of delicacy, as
there could. be no imputation of excessive expenditure on the pan of his
'Villa/IRM said his right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Ex.
chequer) bad put the question on so clear a ground, that it was unne.
cessary for him to offer any thing is addition. The hon. baronet had
laid down the doctrine that precedents were not to be followed, but were
to be avoided. Nothing could be more absurd. (A laugh.) He was as
willing as the hen. baronet to limn to sound reason for departing from
a precedent; but without good memo ware abewn for departing firom it,
he should adhere to it as more comment than change. The late civil
list was evidently a greater cbaqp as the public than the present by
NNW, that was as clear as Spree could make it, and it was
wholly mina:essay to appoint • amities* to ascertain that fact
It had been marked that the:Oseemeet had not done all that might
be done to improve she weal of keeping the public acoounts and of
oollectiag the public routine r but ems meg answer might be, that
something had been done, ae the willeeden of the revenue Dow soot
3,700,0001. whereas it bessides easti,lllo,SSOL (Hear.) And further
inquiries were making to mewl* whithh, that expense could we he
etill more diminished. In 00111iMiOnt 11010 Pated that ho Mat oppose
the amendment be thought that hones dishiest place foe the amplest
H.
s. H. SUMNII* seid_thst ftle aiseitable Gentleman (Mr.
Oeulletre) bad srieee4ols.4)oerridelled MIL Silted expected a saga
better mmHg 'WPM shish did not naturally
ittthe Fain 1,04 ihitithlipthaled ems it. (Hear.) Thaw annar
exposes being petapes tinsCieni Uhl Made the cat of the King rips
Feu to be -grata then ft rally was. (Lewd ides of Question,
question.)
Seraagers were Mend to withdraw. anifid man. mhos, aid
.amiss, may of the membese. Ia the house sad in the. die
earustly joining in tbs. ay of Swamps withdraw I. wi 1 'P
r .The of the hauscand aide gellarior me crowded tehl asembee,
pestionlad; the opposition bushes, and the oasyshers them wee _angst.)

those who meet lustily called "Questioo, question !—Withdraw, with-
draw !—Sueingess withdraw !" They appeared very anxious fee the
division to tabs pboe thus early.
far tome time minded. The numbers mers••
Stranres were
the modes ...
Fee the 1111.141.1111,
• • ...1111
Meier* against the Ministeel
The ansimefeibo of the numbers ailed teeth btud, les=biadinehla.l
continued cheering from the opperiiden. . It was a
before it experiential any abetting... 'Ai Maas it bad sespwist abated,
Sir H. PARNELL rose, and nomad that the select eantmittee be
now appointed. (Cheers.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE bunch/Mk me. Alba the division that has
just taken place (said Mr. Hobbes's) I amid pat it to the Right hon.
gentleman (Sir Robert Peel) whether he aml his cellesgues around him
resilpedtend any longer to continue in 'Mei, heat what they msy
be to calla Oovanment P (Imams. &easing.)
o Mr. lidBHOUSE (after some pause for an answer) As there is no
reply to this question, I shall avail myself of a very early opportunity
to put this mattes to the test, (Loud than, and ogles of move, move.)
This matter must soon be brought to an issue. (Continued cheering.)
I repeat—Do the Ministers, after this division, think of continubg iq
their pleas P (land cries of hear, bear.)
SM no answer, and there being no appearance of any member on the
Bench intending to attempt to rise-
1117.7ROUGH A M (after a pause) said, the question of the has.
member is an exceedingly natural one—(cheers)—ft is by no means an
unnatural one, after what has happened to the gentlemen opposite.
(Cheers and laughter.) But, perhaps, the hon. member will not now
press it further t and as to the motion immediately before the Home,
perhaps the hon. baronet will deem it advisable to postpone the
don for for the nomination of the Committee Oft -morrow. I think, under
all the cheumetenees, it may be better for him to pursue that course.
(Cries of " No, no," " Move now," from those members who were im.
mediately around Hr. Brougham.) After some pause, we understand
Mr. Brougham mid, Well, as my hon. Mends do not agree with me in
the proposition for postponement, I withdraw my request. (Hear.)
The question that the Select Committee be now appointed, was then
put and carried without any division oicomment.
Sir H. PARNELL then handed in the list of the proposed Com-
mittee, which the Speaker read. Amongst the names read from the
chair, we collected the following t
Sir H. Parnell, Mr. Ward,
The Ch. of the Exchequer, I Mr. Mahe*,
Sir R. Peel, Ma Littleton.
Lord Aida", Sir J. Newport,
Mr. Arbuthnot. Mr. H. Drummond,
Mr. Berries, Lord Palmerston,
Mr. F. Lewis, Mr. 8. Rice,
Mr. Smokes, Mr. Hume,
Sir Z. Enatehbull, Mr. C. W. Wynne, At. he.
Five to be a qamem.
While the oppeddia, or rather them who were in favour of Sir H.
Pantrzat.'s modes he the select committee ware in the lobby, Mr.
811017011.4111 adeemed them, and begrd them not to withdraw after
this division, elfecielly should they unfortunately be in a minority ;
for, in that case mother division would certainly take place. Evan if
tit:ministers &m id succeed in getting the house info a committee
again m the civil Bat, the boa. member intended to move that the
chairman do report program, and ask leave to sit again, with a view to
some ulterior prosodist. The necessity 9 however, for this precau-
tionary harangue, it will be perceived, did not exist.
The Committee having been named, many Members withdrew. For
some time the confusion was such, that though the Speaker pro-
ceeded with the business on the paper, what was the fate of many pro.
positions, was not distinctly ascertained in the gallery.