Star.
London, England, 1825-02-09 00:00:00

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY !), 1825.

PARLIAMENTARY PROCEEDINGS.
HOUSE OF LORDS, FEBRUARY 8.
The Earl of SHAFTESBURY presented a Petition from the
Inhabitants of Newton Abbot, and Newton Sushi% against the
Duty on Coals carried coastways.—Laid or the table.
The Peers were then called over, after which the House pro-
ceeded by ballot to fix the attendance of the Peers on Appeal causes
during the whole of the Session.

CATHOLIC ASSOCIATION.
On the motion of the Marquis of LANSDOWN, the
Order of the Day having been read,
The Marquis of LANSDOWN rot.e, pursuant to the
notice which he had given yesterday, to move an hum-
ble ♦ddress to his Majesty, praying that he would be
graciously pleased to order all dispatches received from
the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland, relative to Religious
and Political Institutions in that country, to be laid be-
fate the I lonse. He intruded on their Lordships on this
occasion, because, combining the assurances given in his
Majesty's Speech of improved tranquillity and in-
creasing prosperity in Ireland, with the statement that
institutions existed in that country inconsistent with its

prosperity, and requiring legislative enactments to Ie•
press them—combining also, the indisposition of the
Noble Earl opposite to commonicate to the House any
authentic account; of the nature of the evil, he con-
ceived their Lordships to be placed in a situation both
singular and unprecedented. Unprecedented, because
he did not recollect any circumstances when a new re-
striction was ever imposed, even in time of war and of
imminent danger, without a previous inquiry being
instituted, and documents produced by the Government,
to prove the necessity of such a measure for the main-
tenance of internal peace. The restriction now pro-
'posed was not ono which fell on one class in particular;
it appeared that it was to embrace all classes, and to
affix a limitation to the privileges of individuals, to
which they were not now subjected by law. 'This was
the more extraordinary, as there did not seem to be a
disposition in the Irish Government to enforce the law
to its full extent ; and indeed it was even acknow-
ledged that the proceedings which it was intended to
repress, whether blameable or not, were strictly legal.
—Their Lordships were called upon to provide a
remedy without any knowledge of the evil, and
that at a moment when not only the danger was
not alleged to be imminent, but in a period of pros-
perity and tranquillity, and when all parties agreed
that an unusual degree of harmony prevailed in that
very part of the country where the evil was said to
exist. Of the causes of this tranquillity, various parties
gave various accounts. The Catholic Association as-
cribed it to its earnest exertions and strenuous recoup
mendations to the people of Ireland to keep the peace.
The Lord-Lieutenant attributed it, justly, to his firm
and equal administration. His Majesty's Ministers con-
ceived it to result from the measures which they had
recommended to the Parliament last Session, whilst the
other House might say that it proceeded front the ex-
cellent amendments which it had introduced into those
measures. But whatever difference of opinion existed
as to the cause of this general tranquillity, there was but
one as to the important fact, that there was not one
body of persons in Ireland willing or able to disturb the
public peace. What moment, then, was chosen to assert
the necessity, without inquiry, without the danger of
rebellion, of passing new restrictions without giving
their Lordships time to examine the nature of the peril
which they were called upon to avert ! He should
perhaps be told that all this inquiry, all these commu-
nications, were unnecessary on this occasion, because
men might govern themselves by the notoriety of the
facts. He must confess, that if there was one moment
when he should have thought it impossible that noto•
riety should have been used as an argument, it was this,
for never had it less applied to this subject. It was noto-
rious how persons who might have been deemed the
best qualified for judging, had been deceived. The actual
law officers of the Government of Ireland, able as they
were acknowledged to be, had been so completely de-
ceived by the nature of the subject, as to go before one
of the tribunals of that country with statements so little
borne out in evidence, that they were rejected by the
Grand Jury on the shewing of their own witnesses.—
Would well-informed men have gone befgre a Jury at
all, if exaggerated statements had not misled them, and
left them completely in the dark as to the tendency of
what had taken place within the walls of the Catholic'
Association ? Were their Lordships, therefore, on the
assertions of the Noble Earl opposite, and the reports
of Newspapers, to suffer themselves to be engaged in-so
delicate a task ? Whenever restrictions were proposed
on the ground of alleged danger arising from the ex-,
ercise of legal privileges, it was the duty of their Lord-
ships to inform and satisfy themselves, first of the ex-
istence of the evil to be corrected ; secondly, of the nature
of the remedy by which it was to be put down ; and
thirdly, and above all, to take care that in extinguishing
one evil, they did not create other and greater ones.
Now to ascertain every one of those points, they re-
quired the dispatches for which he had called. It was
necessary, before they should form a final opinion, that
they should receive their information from the mouths
of those who had the best opportunity of acquiring
knowledge, and who gave it on their own responsibility_
They were ready to engage, even with that information,
anti still more certainly without it, in a task of great
difficulty, of which they saw the commencement, but of
which no sone could say what would be the end—(Hear).
The Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack, for it
was impossible that such a nice piece of workmanship
should be intrusted to other hands than those of the
first Law Officer of the Crown, the Noble and Learned
Lord, with all his talents and ingenuity, of which no
man could think higher than he did, would have a dif-
flesh task in framing such a Bill as would prove effec-
tive. If its object Isere to extinguish the Catholic As-
sociation and Catholic Rent in Ireland ; if the Noble
Earl and his colleagues should be able, without dis-
turbing the ordinary regulations of society, to prevent
persons from obtaining that confidence from others
which others declared- they enjoyed ; if they could
prevent them from paying money to those to whom
they wished to pay it; if they coulsi intercept the pas-
sage of opinion from one man's mind to another's, or
that of money from the pocket of the one to the hand
of the other, they, lie was ready to allow, would per-
form an extraordinary task. But if they failed they

would have done nothing, nay, worse than nothing, for
they would only have created an endless legislative
conflict. But if the Noble and Learned Earl succeeded,

he would immortalize himself as a legi,lator. The
Noble Earl opposite, anxious to smooth the progress of
his Bill through this and the other House, would no
doubt state that it was not a substantive Bill, but only

an amendment of the Convention Act. There was ►his
difference, however, that the Convention Act treated of

tangible objects, whilst the present Bill dil not. The
Convention Act related to delegation. Ile would not
enter into a general dissertation on the effects of dele-

gation in that country. Some thought that where great
grievances existed, delegation was not injurious. The
Catholics might quote great authorities in its support,
and amongst the test the Noble Lord who had so ably
moved the Address to the Crown, and who considered

delegation useful in representing public opinion re•
specting grievances, though at the same time a mode
tangible by law, and under the circumstances of Ire-
' land, not to he permitted. The Convention Act also
related to unlawful oaths, and it certainly might be said
you shall not use such a form of oath ; but when there;
was no outward form of proceeding on which-to lay the'
hand, what remained for the law to perform but to get
rid of %yards. The words Association and Rent might
be objected to and proscribed, but what would ensue?
that the same objects would revive under other names.
Had not a Noble Lord, some years since, excited him-,
self so much against the Catholic Committee that it had
at last disappeared, and nothing more was heard of a
Catholic Committee? but then the Catholic Associa-

tion sprung up in its .place. So it would now be the
case. They might get rid of the Association and Rent ;
but would the people of Ireland associate or pay the
less for it ? The Noble and Learned Earl would find it
a hard task to persuade the Irish not to pay if they

were disposed to do so. It was no easy matter to get
money into one's pocket, but there was little difficulty
in drawing it out. He would tell the Noble and
Learned Lord what he would be able to do. He would
not make the Catholic Rent less, but he would make it,
more. When the French Poet Piron was on the eve of
publishing a poem, he requested a friend of his, a Mem-
ber of the Academy, to state the night before at a sitting
of that body that his verses were detestable, for, said
he, the whole edition will be sold to-morrow. So it ,
would be, with the Catholic Rent ; the attack made upon
it would dilly serve to double its collection. It was
impossible that every effort to restrict existing privi.
leges should not increase the wish of exerting them. He
would venture to remind the Noble and Learned Earl
of a fact connected with Irish history. Under the reign
of Henry VIII. and during a period of violence and out-
rage, the Irish were in the habit, in moments of excite-
ment, to the two invocations or exclamations, Croma-
boo and Butleraboo. The corresi,ons.lents of the Go-
vernment very wisely wrote to their principals in Eng-
land, that those two words did all the mischief, and that
they must be put down. The Cabinet met; he did not
know whether it was a divided Cabinet, but on this
question it was agreed, and came to the resolution that
the noxious expressions must be put down. A Bill was
consequently passed, expunging those words from the
Irish language, and forbidding their use under the most
severe penalties, but out of great humanity termitting
the Irish in future, at moments of excitement, to cry out
St. George. History did not say whether they had used
the old exclamations or the legal ones, but it was known
that the same outrages had continued to be committed.
Be, did not mean to compare the Catholics of the pre-1
sent age with the barbarians of that, nor the legislation
of that period with the legislation of this, but he thought
'it an adventurous thing for mere words to create so
rmuch inconvenience; for this was not a subject in
which we could merely say, "If we fail, we fail." If
AL.. O'Connell were inclined to do any mischief, which,
be was not prepared to say, he would ask their Lord-
ships whether that individual were more able to do it
Wore he had been brought before the Court or after?
-It would be for them to consider whether they would
not increase substantially that power which they were
about reducing nominally. In all he had said he had
not sought for an opportunity of defending the pro-
ceedings of the Catholic Association. He had even no
objection to say, that if the reports of those proceedings
which reached him through the newspaper; were cor-
rect, he saw much in them to disapprove, both in their
collective and individual capacity. But it wai impossi-
ble that large bodies should assemble to discuss reli-
gious or civil grievances, and that debates should be
carried on without much being said or done, which
other persons looking at things in a different point of
view, must disapprove. Inflammatory speeches on
'such occasions were not attended with such dangers as had been
represented. Having said that many et the proceedings of the Ca-
tholic Association appeared to him blameable, as reported, he must
also say that he had seen much in them of which he approved. In
a country divided into masses of different opinions and religion, it
was fit that those opinions should find means of being represented.
It was safer that they should be colkcted in a public than a secret
manner; for they resembled those fluids and vapours with the na-
ture of which we were growing every day better acquainted, and
which, when confined, were a source of menace and real danger.
but when allowed a free vent mingled harmlessly with the atmo-
sphere. The Noble Marquis then restated the special ground of
ilia motion, that before new restrictions were imposed, inquiry
was indispensably necessary ; and concluded by moving an humble
Address to his Majesty, to the purport described at the beginning
of his Speech.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL reminded their Lordships
of the old saying, that when a man rose in a public
assembly, it might be as well if he knew the subject
ahout which he was to speak. In the same manner,
when a Noble Peer rose to make a motion for informa-
tion, when, in a few days, all explanations were to be
given, it might be as_ well if he had waited till those
explanations had been pi oduced. It was true, that in
the Speech fiom the Throne his Majesty had combined,
with a -description of the improved tranquillity and
prosperity of Ireland, a recommendation that remedies
should be applied to some existing evils. It yeas true
also that their Lordships had ,carried an address to tl:e
Throne, in which they said tbat.they would consider the
evil. There the matter rested. The Noble Marquis
knew, from the votes on the table, that it was the linen-
lion of his Majesty's Ministers to introduce a measure
latt that subject in a few days in another place. Would
it not have been better for him, therefore, to have waited
till he knew the object of that measure, which he must
know so soon, than to make a speech on a mere suppo-

[PRICE SEVEN PENCE.

sition ? The Noble Marquis said that no te.trictionk
should be imposed without information to justify lune:
cessity. If the Noble Lord meant that the grounds of
the measure should be shewn,he (the Earl of Liverpool)
was perfectly of his opinion. But those grounds might
he grounds of general notoriety. The Noble Mat quis
had acted on such grounds himself two years ago ; for
when their Lordships had adopted a measure against
Orange Societies, had he called for any information, or
had any been produced except the simple notoriety of
(acts ? He (Lord Liverpool) approved of that measure,
rird thought a proper course had been followed ; bat
the friends f f Orange Societies might also have had a
igla to ask for information. As to the Catholic Asso-
ciation, if the measure proposed rested on official infor-

. .
mation, on anything confidentially communicated to
his Majes:y's Govbrnment, the state of the question
would he different. But when their Lordships should
know its nature, they would find that this was not the
case. It was introduced on no official or confidential

inf..rmation whatever, but on facts which were as
"equally known to each of their Lordships as to his Ma.
jesty's Governmept. It was the boast of the Catholic
Association that all its-proceedings were public and in
the face of day. If it were fit to adopt a measure
against that body, it was fit to grout:d it on that which
they admitted, which they had published and acknow•
ledged, and on nothing else. What grounds were there
therefore for adopting the Noble Lord's motion at any
time, but especially at a time when their Lordships
knew nothing on the subject ? The Noble Marquis
asked to discuss the question in the dark ; he (Lord
Liverpool) wished to discuss it in the light, and to
wait till the measure was before the House. The Noble

Marquis also seemed to suppose that the measure was
the contrivance of his Noble and Learned Friend on the

Woolsack. Certainly, as a Member of his Majesty's
Government, the measure could not be introduced with-
out his concurrence; but if it were ascribed to his

•
agency, he (Lord Liverpool) had no hesitation in saying
that the supposition was totally unfounded. It was the
measure of the Irish Government, approved, by the
English Government. It was the measure of the Irish
Government, founded on a conviction of its necessity
to maintain the peace of the country. He should not
suffer himself to be led into a discussion of the Bill, or

of the conduct of the Catholic Association; but thus

much he would say, what effects must be produced by
such an Association, in a country abounding with reli-
gious and political animosities? The Noble Marquis
advised that little stress should be laid on inflammatory
speeches ; but there was a great difference between in-
flammatory speeches is a divided assembly, that was to
say, an assembly composed of persons of different
opinions and parties—and in an.united one, where all
men entertained the same opinion, and acted from the
same feeling. There was 'also -a great difference be-
tween inflammatory speeches, and inflammatory pro-
ceedings. The Noble Marquis also drew a wrong in-
ference from the result of the application to the Dublin
Grand Jury. An individual had been indicted for ut-
tering words which were charged with being seditious.
The Grand Jury had certainly ignored the Bill, and he
had not been brought to trial. But how could the re-
jection of the charge against Mr. O'Connell lead to any
inference respecting the conduct of the Catholic Asso-
ciation? There was nothing so dangerous to public
liberties as drawing such inferences from the trials of
individuals. He should be the last, after a person had
.been acquitted, in thinking that he should again be
brought forward. He, therefore, bowed to the de-
cision of the Dublin Grand Jury ; but he bowed to it
as an individual case, not applicable to a general one.
It was not on the words of an individual, but on the
proceedings of the whole body that the proposed mea-
sure was to be founded. There never was a period at
which inflammatory proceedings were less justifiable,
from the prosperity of the country, and the general
conduct of the Irish Government. For he called on
the warmest advocate of the Catholics to state whether
there ever was a period at which more equal justice
had been administered to all parties, and a greater dis-
position bad existed to chew kindness to the great body
of Catholics? But this was not all. He should re-
peat what he had said on the first day of the Session,
that he looked on the Catholic Association as the
greatest enemy to Ireland. It was that which checked
its prosperity ; it was that which prevented the flow of
capital from England into that country, where it was
ready to run, by affording constant excitement to those
animosities which it was the object of his Majesty's
Government to allay. It was impossible for that body
to proceed as it had done without creating opposite
feelings, and defeating the object of the Governments,
which was to spread universal peace. It all Associations
could not be put down, then all Associations must be permitted,
and if this were dune, in what a state would the country be placed?
Some measure ought to be adopted, u much, and even more for
the interest of the Catholics than for that of any other body. His
chief objections to the proposal of the Noble Marquis were, that
such a motion, in such a stage of the business, had never been beard
of, and that it related to a Bill of which the House knew nothing,
and which, instead of being founded on official or confidential in-
f ormation, tested entirely on proceedings which the Catholic Also-
. ciation itself admitted to be notorious.
The Earl of GROSVENOR, should trouble their
Lordships but with a few words. He should, in the '
first place, state, that the Motion of the Noble Marquis
(Lansdown) near him had his most decided support;
and, in the next place, the reasons on which his support
was founded. The Noble Earl opposite (Liverpool)
seemed to misunderstand the drift of his Noble Fr iend's
(the Marquis of Lansdown) observations. The Motion
had ati,Ant out of the recommendation in the Speech
front the Throne to adopt means for suppressing the Ca-
tholic AssoCiation. Now, the Noble Earl opposite asserted
that body had done great mischief, while many Noble
Lords on his (Lord Go osvenor's) side, thought_ it had
done much good, and all that was demanded was the
information on which the former opinion was taken up.
It was, surely, not pos,ible but the Noble Marquis at
the lie of of the Irish Goverment had made some coin-
mu' ications to Ministers on the subject, which, in all
probability, would throw light on the course the House
should pursue. With respect to the inflammatory pro-
ceedings which it was alleged the Catholic Association
had been guilty of, it was not in the nature of things
that men, seeking such a great object as they did, could
avoid expressing themselves or acting ardently. If they
sat down with their hands before them, it was most


probable they could never attain the end they had in view. The
term% however, which they had applied to the Otangernen, he
sh,mltl alway 4 regret, although it did lint appear to him, that on'
inch grounds the liberty of the subject should be invaded. He
believed. at the same time, that the Catholics were unanimous to a
man he their object, and that many Protestants, even in Ireland,
supported their proceedings. Let them persevere—let them not
relax in their endeavours till they had attained their end.
Lord HOLLAND said, that the Noble Earl oppo'site
(Lord Liverpool) began his speech with an ohservatioa
of which he seemed so enamourei, that he concluded
by repeating it. The Noble Lot d said, that the motion
of the Noble Marquis (Lansdown) demanded informa-
tion before it was known to what the information could
be applied. He (Lord Holland), on the contrary, in-
sisted that the motion referred to a subject tecommended
in .he King's Speech, :and that to withhold whatever
might enable the House to come to a right conclusion
upon it was both ungracious and radically unjust..—.
Mete too often, had it been the practice of the Noble
Earl to bring down guises when he wished to abridge
the liberty of the subject, and those voluminous
pt asses, which not infrequently libelled the people of
England : no one then asked what was the purpose of
such papers ? w by not wait till the measly e which they
refer to ha, come up from tire House of Commons. He
(Lord H.) never acted thus. It would indeed be strange
if their Lordships were to apply a remedy to an alleged,
evil, without having information to guide their procedure.'
—lf the motion of his N•ible Friend were sightly tin.,
derstood, he thought it impossible for any Peer to leaved
the House without voting for it if he wished that the,
measure in contemplation should have weight either,
within or without the walls of Parliament. The Noble
Earl was fond of relying on precedents, and he had to-
night resorted to that support—he had countenanced
the passing of the Bill for suppressing Orange Socie-
ties, and took it for granted that all done on that occa-
sion had the unanimous approval of the House. But
he (Lord Holland) had said " Not Content" to that
Bill, and certainly not from any friendly feelings which
he possessed towards the persons on whom it was to
operate, but because he objected to its principle. It
WAS not true, however, that even that measure was
adopted without inquiry it was a mere extension of
the law of England to Ireland—upon that ground it
was argued and passed, and the law which it went to
extend, and which was introduced by Lord Melville,
into-the House of Commons, when Mr. Dundas, was
not introduced till after mature investigation by com-
petent Pariiamentary Committees. But supposing he
was to take the recommendation in the King's Speech,
he was not surely to be left to speculate on the remedy
proposed. He would, however, imagine that the Irish
Convention Act was the model of the intended Bill.
He certainly was not aware whether the passing of that
Act, of which be was no admirer, had been preceded
.by inquiry or not—nor should he be much disposed to
follow the Irish Parliament on such grave and impor-
tant points of legislation, pat ticularly at such an epoch
as t e year 1793, when this law was adopted. Ile
would at the same time do the Irish Parliament justice.
At that period it was in contemplation to assemble a
number of delegates at Athlone, and to call together a
sort of second Parliament in that place—the time, too,
was the eve of a war with a nation which held out every
inducement to British subjects to desert their allegiance.
Tire Noble Earl whom lie (Lord Holland) had now the
pleasure to see in his place, the Lord Privy Seal (Earl
Westmoreland) was then Lord Lieutenant of Ireland,
and could correct him as to facts. lle might also ob-
serve, in passing, that not even the enemies of the Noble
Earl (Westmoreland) could accuse him of ever being
very squeamish about resorting to such measures as he
deemed necessary for the support of the Government
to which he belonged—they could never say that Ire
was particularly mealy-mouthed about expressing Iris
apprehensions. But, notwithstanding the dangers by
which the Noble Earl was then surrounded, when be
came down to the Irish Parliament, did .he do as the
King's Advisers now attempt? Mark how he 'pro-
ceeded. He recommended concession and conciliation
to the Catholics first, and the Convention Act, which
was the 29th, was preceded by the 21st, which con-
ferred the enjoyment of so many rights upon that de-
nomination of persons. Nothing of this kind was pro-
posed at pre-ent. The question in short now Was,
whether their Lordships should legislate on a moment-
ous subject without information? It would perhaps
be said that the King's Speech afforded information,
and he (Lord Holland) confessed it did, but of a most
unsatisfactory nature. Ile would read a paragraph or
two of it for the House.---EHete his Lordship read that
part of his Majesty's Speech which stated the pros-
perous and tranquil situation of Ireland; but men-
tioned the existence of Associations, which Parliament
were recommended to suppress; and concluded by ad.
vising a renewal of the inquiries into the state of that
,country.)—lf, then, (continued Lord Holland) they un-
dertook to apply a remedy to the evil first, for what pur-
pose resort to inquiry afterwards? All the Noble Lord's
proceedings were of a piece. Before a Bill was brought
up from the Commons, they were to know nothing, and
then, before the Bill was passed, then they were to know
tiothing—bet immediately after wards to have an inquiry.
Nuw when certain measures, affecting particular laws,
'were contemplated, it was customary for the House to
first ascertain the opinion of the Judges upon the points
to be legislated on, but in future he (Lord Holland)
supposed that precaution would he dispensed with.
Their Lordships would make the law first and consult
the Judges afterwards. He now came to the only infor-
mation on the subject in the King's Speech ;'and from
that, if it appeared that airy measure at all mere neces-
sary, there certainly did not appear any necessity to
perpetuate it—(Hete his Lordship again read the pas►
sage in his Majesty's Speech already noticed.)—There
was nothing in that about immediate insurrection, and
his Majesty, even in recommending some step to be
taken, expressed no desire that it should be hastily re-
sorted to. What then was the object of his Noblelriend
(tire Marquis of Lansdown's) motion ? It was, that the
better to remedy the evil complained of in the Royal
Speech, they should first know what the evil itself was,
that the House might hear from the Noble Earl oppo-
site (Lord Liverpool's) own witnesses the evidence which
they had to give, and learn, perhaps, both sides of the
tale. It might thus probably appear that the measures
originally recommended wet e partly coercive and partly
conciliatory. He must say it was treating the Govern-
ment on the other side of the Channel very unhand-
somely, not to state explicitly all the measures it had
-'ssed, as well as the present one. But on this point
• must confess he was as much in the dark as
seemed disposed so keep the House upon
subject under discussion, nor did his M 4.
,irech tend much to enlighten him. In it he
iJ that e Associations exited in Ireland irre-
with the spirit of the Constitution, and cal-

culated to excite animosity among the people." When
he &staved this passage he looked round him to find
iwhatAssociationsveally bore this character,and hi found
'none but'the Irish Government and the Irish Cabinet,
or perhaps he ought to add, the English Govei nment
and the English Cabinet. A Government or Cabinet,
to he reconcileahle with the Constitution, ought to be
founded on principles of harmony and union, but the
Irish and English Governments were framed on a system
of disunion and counteraction. There was a black on
one side and a white on the other, exactly balancing
.each, and this principle was lately extended net
only to the composition of the Royal Speech, but to the
Mover and Seconder of the Address in both Houses of
Parliament ; nay, if there was a foolish prosecution
against one party, there was also a foolish prosecution
against the other party ; and-thus it was, Cromaboo and
Butleraboo were incessantly opposed. Now could any
thing be more calculated than this to keep alive ani
mosities in Ireland? and yet it pervaded every act of
the Ministry, and even through the whole of the King's
Speech the " serpentine line" was visible—
" Penitusque in viscera lapsum
Serpentis furiale malum, totamque pererrat."
The true question, then, for their Lordships to decide
was, sa hat Associations they should put down in Ire-
land ? The system was said to be devised not to give
a triumph to either party; but for his part he thought
it the most impolitic, and the unwisest scheme which
could be adopted. But if the proposed Bill were to be
modelled on the Convention Act, it would be well for
their Lordships to bear in mind the difficulties which
attended the framing of that measure. When the Con-
vention Act was introduced, how did Mr. Grattan—
that great and good man—that best and truest friend
of his country—characterize it? He said it would con-
vert the most brilliant events in the history of the
British Constitution into the blackest. The very framers
of the Bill were obliged to withdraw it as it originally
stood, for they found that any officer by its authority
might enter either House of Parliament and disperse
the Members. Another Bill was then introduced, in
which all delegated meetings were subjected to its ope-
ration—save and except the Knights, Burgesses, &c. in
Parliament assembled—although that provision did not
shot tly after save the Parliament which enacted it—and
also save and except the two Houses of Convocation.
lie (Lord Holland) should therefore recommend that
in the present Bill a special clause should be introduced,
viz—saving and excepting his Majesty's Cabinet and
Privy Council from the penalties it awarded on assem-
blies " irreconcileable with the spirit of the Constitu-
tion, and calculated to excite animosity among the
people." He had detained the House much longer than.
he bad intended. If their Lordships took for granted that evils
existed without inquiry, they would act contrary to all justice, and
the measure so founded would be one of servility. If a necessity did
exist, and be should be sorry to believe there did, for employing
such coercive means of tranquillizing Ireland, it would indeed be an
awful necessity, and he would conjure the House, as they valued
i the peace of the country, and as they valued the rights and freedom
of posterity, not without adequate information to undertake so pain-
ful and disgusting a duty—(llear.)
Earl BATHURST briefly opposed the motion; but
his Lordship's low tone of voice rendered very few of his
observations intelligible below the bar. He remarked,
that a Noble Earl (Grosvenor) opposite said, that there'
was nothing in the proceedings of the Catholic Asso-
ciation to justify the adoption of measures for its sup-
pression ; surely there was sufficient on the very face of
those proceedings, to render it essential to the tran-
quillity of Ireland that such associations should be put
down. He contended that it was ttnnecessary to go
into details before the House, until a 13111 was called for; it would
then be proper for their Lordships to see whether they ought not
to adopt such a measure as would be necessary fur the safety of the
State on the one hand, without intrenching on the liberty of the
subject on the other ? But the Noble Lord (Holland) said that this
measure was connected with one for this country.
Lord HOLLAND here stated that his Lordship had
misunderstood him.
Earl BATHURST continued. With respect to a
great variety of other topics introduced by the Noble
Lord, it was unnecessary for him to go into them.
What was the prificiple to be brought forward on this
occasion ? The principle was this—if, on the face of the
public proceedings of this Association, there was not anything to
justify their Lordships in adopting the proposed measure, then they
would do right to reject it ; bet if there was, their Lordships would
do well to wait until it was proposed, and then judge if the mea-
sure was equal to the occasion that called for it.
The Earl of Gnosvzwoa and Lord HOLLAND severally
explained. The latter observed, that he never meant
to say that the proposed measure was connected with any ether,
,till less with an English measure. He did say it was possible that
the Irish Government, when recommending this with other mea-
sures, assigned grounds for it; and he thought it but reasonable that
these should be stated to their Lordships.
The Earl of CARNARVON did not conceive that
in allowing the Address to pass he had pledged him-
self to consent to all the measures it suggested without
examination. According to the theory of the Noble
Earl opposite, they were never to obtain light—for
when the Bill came from the Commons, was it in its
preamble that they were to find a reason for imposing
new restraints on the people, which perhaps were totally
unnecessary—and were their Lordships to say " Con-
tent," or "Not Content," upon such evidence? Would
they do that upon a great public occasion when the
'most vital interests of the Empire at large were in-
volved, which was not done with the most ordinary
Private Bill? In the latter case, evidence was heard at
the Bar, and the whole matter thoroughly sifted before
they attempted to legislate on it. It was said, however,
that the present measure was founded on proceedings,
of public notoriety, and in the same breath it was said
that it had been sent over from Ireland, framed by the
Irish Government. The dispatches then accompanying
it were not of public notoriety, and those were what were
asked, that others might have the same information as
the Ministers of the Crown. When Ireland really was dis-
turbed, and when Captain Rock pervaded the country,
the Noble Earl opposite (Lord Liverpool) did not
scruple to furnish the House with the contents of green
bags ; but now no information, and indeed hardly the
King's Speech, was given. WAS it possible that this was
referable to another feeling ?—that the Noble Earl at
the head of the Law was satisfied no Bill could bi
framed which would. be either practicable or applicable ?—and
therefore,that their Lordships were requested to wait till the House
of Commons should send up the Bill—Ministers were aware at the
same time that no Bill ever would arrive. Why else did they
shrink from tile discussion of the subject ? His Majesty's Govern-
ment looked with apprehension at the unanimity of the Catholic
Association; but he (Lord Carnarvon) thought a divided assembly
much more dangerous.
The House then divided, when there were—
Contents . 20
Non Contents 42
Majority against the Motion . —29.
The House adjourned at a Quarter past Fight o'Clock.
HOUSE OP COMMONS.
Colonel DAVIES obtained kaveto bring in a Bill to enable the
Equitable Loan Bank to sue and be sued, and serve notices in the
names of their clerk or secretary.

Lord STANLEY obtained leave to bring in a nu for making a
rail-road between Liverpool and Manchelter.
Air. DUNDAS presented a petition front the Chamber of Com-
merce of Edinburgh, against the high rates of insurances against fire.
—Ordered to lie on the table.
Sir J. NEWPORT presented a petition from the Chamber of
Commerce of Waterford, praying for a freer communication between
England and the South of Ireland.—Ordered to lie on the table.
)Jr. S. COURTNEY presented a petition front an individual
named Suter, praying an alteration in the laws respecting Friendly
Societies.—Ordered to lie on the table.
Sir E. KNATCIIBULL presented a petition from the Corpora-
tion of Deal against the duty on sea-borne coals.—Ordered to lie on

the table.
Colonel PA LMER presented a petition from certain parishes in
the city of Bath, for a repeal of the House and Window Tax.—
Ordered to lie on the table.
The SOLICITOR-GENERAL presented a similar petition
from the Parish of St. Peter in the East, in the City of Oxford.—
Ordered to lie en the table.
Mr. HUME postponed his motion, which stood for this day,
until Tuesday next.
Lord ALTHORPE moved for leave to bring in a Bill for the
more easy and speedy recovery of Small Debts in England and
Wales. The Noble Lord stated, that it was his intention subse-
quently to move for a Select Committee to inquire into the claims
of all persons interested in the measure, in order that compensa-
tion might be awarded to those whom the measure might be cal-
culated to injure.

THE USURY LAWS.
Mr. Serjeant ONSLOW, in thing to move for leave
to bring to a Bill for the Repeal of the Usury Laws,
observed, that the present period was one of all °theta in which
such a measure could excite little opposition. When the King's
Speech recommended the removal of restrictions upon commerce,
be could not help thinking that the restrictions upon money transl
actions also should be thrown entirely open.
Mr. DAVENPORT opposed the motion. It was in
his opinion totally uncalled for, and was calculated to ruin the
landed interest throughout the country.
Mr. J. SMITH supported the motion; and hoped Mr.
Serjeant Onslow would not defer the measure in courtesy to its
opponents, as he had done last year.
Mr. J. C. CURWEN was of opinion, that during the
present speculative spirit which was afloat, they should
hold fast by such law► as might serve to protect many from total
ruin. The whole country were becoming speculators and jobbers
to such an extent, that no less than £164,000,000 had already been
subscribed to new speculations.
The gallery was then cleared for a division, and on the readmis-
sion of strangers, the numbers appeared—Ayes, 52—tioes, 45.

ROMAN CATHOLIC MARRIAGES.
Dr. LUSHINGTON moved for the warrant of com-
mittal of six individuals to the county prison of Lon-
donderry, under the following circumstances :—Two
persons. professing the Catholic religion, had last year
beer married to two others, professing the religion of
the Church of Scotland. Information having been given
to the Magistrates, summonses were issued against all
the parties, who were, by the order of the Magistrates,
committed to pt ison, under the provisions of a Statute
which was supposed to be still in force, for the space of
three years—(Hear, hear.)—He (Dr. Lushington) had
some doubt, as also had several of the Irish Barristers,
whether the law had been repealed which affixed the
penalty of death to the Priest who celebrated a mar-
riage with any save a Catholic, and that of transport.
ation to those witnesses who refused to give testi-
mony against him. Of all the Acts which ever dis-
graced the Statutes, none equalled the Irish Statute
of the 6th of Queen Anne, which declared, while af-
fixing the penalty of death, that if it should appear
that either 'of the parties married were of the Pro-
testant religion, it should be presumed that the Priest
knew of it, and he should suffer the death of a felon !
The same Act also made it lawful for any two Magis-
trates to summon suspected persons before them, and.
to compel them to give evidence against the Priest who
married them; or in the event of their refusal to enter into
recognizances to give evidence, they should be commit.
ted to prison for three years, without bail or maiiiprize.
A Statute was subsequently passed, in the reign of
George the First, inflicting a penalty against the Priest
of 5001. This was evidently intended to supersede the
former cruel law, but as it did not do so in the pre-
amble of the Bill, the law now stood that they should
suffer death first, and pay the fine afterwards.
Sir G. HILL complained, that the Magistrates who
had committed those persons had been menaced, and
held up to popular vengeance, by the Catholic Asso-
ciation, although their conduct was altogether compul-
sory. The Priest in question was a Mr. O'Flaherty,
who had been first admonished ; but on persevering
was summoned before the Magistrates, who scarcely
knew the nature of the defence until it was pointed out
by the Solicitor of the complaining parties. No Ma-
gistrates were more assiduous in the performance of
their duties than those who had been compelled to act
in the manner described. They had no option, for the
Act was imperative to commit the parties who refused
to give testimony against the Priest. They were, how-
ever, liberated after one week's imprisonment, by the
order of the Irish Government.
Mr. J. SMITH wished to ask the Honourable Baro-
net, what the Association had done, which could au-
thorise him to say that they held these Magistrates up
to public vengeance?
Mr. G. R. DAWSON said, that his Hon. Friend was
right in saying that they had been held up to popular
vengeance by those demagogues of that foolish Par-
liament, Mr. O'Connell and Mr. Shiell, and other de-
magogues of that cast. He thanked Dr. Lushington
for the manner in which he had brought forward the
motion: he had not mentioned names, 'and evidently
had only the alteration of the law in view. When
O'Flaherty celebrated those marriages, he actually
bound the parties in an oath not to discover, and in-
stead of standing his trial like a man, he fled the coun-
try—(Laughter.)—Gentlemen Might laugh, -but he
never would consent to a law which did not hold out
some penalty upon a Catholic Priest, for celebrating
such marriages.
Mr. NORTH could not refrain from alluding to the
cheers of reprobation, as he thought, with which some
Gentlemen opposite had met a part of his Right Ho-
nourable Friend's (Sir George Hill's) speech, when he
spoke of the uneasiness which these marriages had caused
in the country. Was riot that uneasiness perfectly na-
tural ? These marriages were not, he regretted, un-
common in-Ireland ; there were none, however, which
carried worse consequences in their train; they were
null and void by law, and the progeny of them bas-
tardized—their ultimate consequences in nine out of
every ten cases was the desertion, abandonment, and
destitution of the unfortunate women who were the
victims of them—(Near). On the subject of the law,
he denied that there was the difference of opinion which
had been alluded to. The Honourable and Learned,
Gentleman (Dr. Lushington) had joked upon the Irish]
statute law, and said that it first inflicted in these cases
the punishment of death, and then a fine of 500/. The
joke was, however, rather stale, and had been imported
from the Catholic Association, for the amusement, he
supposed, of the faculty of Doctors'-Cornmons—(A
laugh). But he could assure the Honourable and
Learned Doctor, that it was perfectly understood by
the profession in Ireland, that the 3341 of the late King

had repealed the previous statutable pe t tlty, which
made the crime a capital felony. Upon the policy of
these statutes he did not mean to give any opinion, but
reserved to himself hereafter the right of considering what penalty
ought to attach w an offence certainly most injurious to the interests
of society. Neither would he give any opinion now upon the con-
duct of the Catholic Association, although he thought that in this
particular instance, it was quite of a pleat with all that he had heard
of their other conduct.
Mr. GRATTAN defended the Catholic AssociatiOil*
and denied that they had excited popular prejudice
against the Magistracy ; on the contrary* he believed
they had done great good to the couriti y, 'which had
never been more tranquil than since their interference.
Was it fair, he would ask, to make personal attacks
upon individuals who could not be present to defend
themselves, and who were men of as much honour and
worth as any in the Kingdom? He begged particnlarly
to speak of Mr. Mid, who, u well as Mr. O'Connell, did not dc.,
serve such personal reflections—(Hear).
Dr. LUSHINGTON, in reply, said, that notwitha
standing what had been said of the general under-
standing of the law in Ireland, he knew that strange prac-
tices prevailed there,not only in civil,but in criminal cases,
where he knew that statutes had in the administration
of justice been disposed of by wholesale, and the com-
mon law resorted to in particular prosecutions. With
respect to the particular case before them, could any
thing be more intolerable than to compel the party to
give evidence against his own act?—(Hear). As to
the Magistrates and their conduct, he could not help
making this single remark—that there never was.a case
in which the act of one of that body was impugned,
without their being at once overwhelmed with the
weight of the eulogiums flung upon the Magistracy for
the possession of every virtue—(Cheers). It was sin-
gular enough, that in this case, where the Magistrates
were represented to be popular with the Catholics be-
fore this act, they became the reverse afterwards, which
was a conclusive proof of the impolicy of the statute
that could lead to such a spirit of animosity—(Hear). The-ito-
don wasthen agreed to.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of Supply,profortna.
Mr. SP It ING RICE gave notice of a motion for the producticin
of all Papers and Dispatches from the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland
rehtive to the Catholic Association, for to-morrow.
Alt. H. DAVIES moved for a variety of Returns, relative to
the Snuff and Tobacco Trade. The Honourable Gentleman also
resented a Petition against the Catholic Association, from the
Vestry and Parish of St. Thomas's, in the City of Bristol.
Mr. HUMR denied the alleg idol,. of the Petition.
Mr. BRIGHT said, that the Petitioners had a right to state
their opinion, without being called to account.
Mr. 11. DAVIS said, his reason for bringing forward that Peti- .
don to late in the evening, was, because he understood there were
five or six others from Bristol.
The Usury Laws Repeal Bill was brought up by Mr. HER.
RI ES, read a first time, and ordered to be printed.
A Petition was presented from the Inhabitants of T.yme Regis,
relative to the St. Katharine's Docks.--Ordered to lie on the
table.—Adjourned.

-

STANDING ORDERS OF THE HOUSE OF LORDS
RELATIVE TO PRIVATE BILLS.
No. 210.1113PICTING JOINT STOCK COMPANY BILLS.
The Mercarii, 2 Junin, 1824.
Ordered, by the Lords Spiritual and Temporal, in Parliament
assembled, that in future, with the exception of Bills for making
and improving any Turnpike-road, Navigation, Cut or Canal, Rail-
road (.1 Tram-road, Tunnel or Archway, Bridge, F; rry, Dock, Pun,
or Harbour, and of all Bills-for lighting, paving, or watching any
one Town, Parish, or District, or foe the cultivation or improve-
ment of Waste Lands, all Bilis brought into this House, enacting
and declaring that certain persons shall form a body politic or cor-
porate, who shall only be bound to the event of their respective
shares, or granting to the same the privilege of a perpetual succes-
sion and a common seal, or the right of suing or being sued, plead-
ing and being itnpleaded, at Law or In Fquity, or of prosecuting
persons who shall commit any felony, misdemeanour, or other
offence ; or any Bill conveying to any number of persons, who are not
bound conjointly and severally to the extent of their respective for-
tunes, one or more of the aforesaid privileges; such Bill, after being
read a first time, shall be referred to a Select Committee; and no
such Bill shall be read a second time till the Committee to which it
is referred have reported that it has to them been proved in a sa-
tisfactory manner, that three•foutths of the Capital intended to
form the Joint Stock of such Company, is deposited in the Bank of
England, or vested in Exchequer Bills, or in the Public Fends in
the name of Trustees, to be transferred to such Company when
they are by law constituted a body politic and corporate, or have by
jaw acquired any of the aforesaid privileges.

The bankruptcy of a mercantile house at Leith, has
unfortunately obliged three considerable and esteemed
houses in Norway, viz. one at Drammen, and two at
Christiania,to stop payment.
It is understood that a new Greek Loan, to the es-
tent of two millions sterling, has been contracted for
by Messrs. J. and S. RICARDO ; but neither. the
.terms
of the contract, nor the price at which it will be brought
out, have as yet transpired. The former Bonds of the
Lean for 800,0001. it is stated, are to be redeemed to a
certain extent; and in consequence the prices of those
Bonds have advanced from 39, which they were on
the precedinf day, to 60, which was the closing price
yesterday. fhe prices of the Shares experienced a fat.
ther advance, as will appear by reference to our list.
It is stated in letters from Corfu, that Maustocoa-
DATO had agreed on an armistice with the Turkish Ge-
neral OMaR VRIONR, who had received private advices
from Constantinople, that the Porte meant to take him
off, under pretence of promotion to a superior Pashalik.
It is also suggested that subsidies (alias bribes) propeliy
applied would bring over most of the Albanian Chiefs
to the Greek cause.
Letters from Joannina of January 1, say, that OMER
VRIONE has renewed his conference with the Greek, and
offered to give up Piecisa, as a pledge of his sincerity.
This news wants confirmation.
The 13th of December, a slight shock of an earth-
quake, which lasted about ten seconds,was experienced
at St. Andrew's, New Brunswick. It excited c9asider-
able alarm, but no damage was occasioned.
A private letter from Madrid, of the 20th ult. state',
that the public attention has been a good deal occupied
of late with the consideration of several Royal Decrees,
tending to the extirpation, not only of all Constitutional
acts, but of everything which might recall to mind their
existence. 01 these Decrees, one regulates the size and
right of weating, mustachios, excluding all Constitu-
tionalists and suspicious char acters, all those not hav-
ing rank or office under Government, or not being
Nobles.' Another prohibits the carrying of meat
blankets, especially by soldiers. Another prohibits the
wearing of caps—even Ladies are not excepted in it.
Accounts from Stockholm of the 21st ult. state, that
Count LOWENHJELM would set out at the beginning of
this month, on his mission as Ambassador Extraordi-
nary to Paris.
Private letters from Bitoglia say, that the Bey of
Caslar had himself declared to his Greek subjects, that
he was unable to protect them, and he therefore left
them at liberty to change their place of abode.
General D'Hoziza, commanding at Orleans, W.I
killed on the 2d instant, at Fontainebleau, in a dm!
with the Major of a cavalry regiment, whom he s is-
petted of an improper intimacy with his wife. The
Major had placed himself on the safe side, by requirin4
a written challenge from his General before he wail' i
fight him.

i proposed, as
be certainly
V ' Ministers Si
the NA hole
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LON DON.

WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 9, 1825.
THE FUNDS.

STOCK EXCHANGE, TWELVE O'CLOCK.
Consols opened this morning at-93i j for the Account, with
scarcely anything doing.