Star.
London, England, 1813-03-30 00:00:00

windy, on the contrary, ignorance and locapaelty. now was by pension Ili , and necure offices were ;illy
Ws(Mr. I r .
(Mr. Bankes') Bill waininnovation, but a strict the-exception. In ahnost all the subordinate offices;
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imitation of the principle extensively laid down by time of service was the test established by Aet of Par-
Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt. He would deny this wear lament. The Hon. Mover of this Bill thought the
sure to he an unworthy sacrifice to popularity. If it mode by sinecure objectionable, because it was inde- ,
were objected, that Mr. Burke and Mr. Pitt had left finite, and might be given for no services at all, and.
those plains untouched, he (Mr. Bankes) would urge had besides become odious in the country: He (Mr:
the increase of the public burthens. lie hoped, the Canning) suppoited the Bill. because it was a substi•
present House of Commons would not disappoint the tution, and no abolition, and endeavoured to effect
Public by rejecting a measure which the last Parlia- the same epd by a better mode than was done at pre-
meat were willing to agree to, even against the voice sent, The test of time was applied to almost all'the
of the Minister, subordinate offices of Government. But the Noble
Lord CASTLEREAGH said, he felt a difficulty Lord had said, mere technical fidelity. aqd daily in
resisting any measure whose object was the ruble- dustry were here concerned. But the situation
Lion of the public burthens, particularly when aft in- which the Noble Laid held now, and he himself
tenanted by the last Parliament. The majority, how- had formerly held, was not one of mere drudgery,
ever, was not so decisive and triumphant as his Hon. and to the high office of representing the Sovereign
Friend (Mr, Bankes) now contended; but supposiog to Foreign States, the principle of this Bill had been
the Bill to pass this House, to was sure of meet- applied by Mr. f erceval in 1810, and nil foreign
ing more resistance in another quarter. If discoun- service was entitled to a pension, unless it had
tenanted in another House, there could be no use in been continued fqr a certain time—though, in this
jaressing it here—.[The Noble Lord having followed particular case, the principle might seem objec-
up this argument, cries of 44 Order!" proceeded from tionable. The man who, at a former period, had
many Members, upon which' resided several years at a petty German Court, or at
• Mr. SPEAKER declared, that this House could the Court of Naples, upon this principle was entitled
got allow itself to be swayed by the opinions of an- to a pension; while the man, who by his talents and
other.l exertions should rouse nations to arms against Ilona-
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Lord CASTLEREAGH. 'said, he should argue parte, might go unrewarded. Here the principle of
the question on its own merits. As a measure of time might have been spared. tut, in other cases,
economy, it would completely fail. The pensions the limitation of time was the most harmless and
provided by the Bill, and which were to commence uninvidious. If it had been enacted, that the Lord
immediately, were nearly equal to what was saved Chancellor should have a pension if liq behaved pro-
by the abolition of Sinecure Places. He (Lord Cas- perly, how invidious would such a clause .be ! Ishe
tlereagh) was satisfied that the West-India patronage i principle of time was applied to all the subordinate
should be placed on a different footing from what it offices at home, and to all the great offices abroad.
' was at present, without even waiting for the final The principle, indeed, was applicable to the state of
success or failure of the Bill. A sweeping measure, things in which he found the country, and whether
which abolished near 350 places at once, swould that state was better or worse thavhe former, he was
cause a very material derangement in our official not called upon to decide.
system. The provisions of this Bill would bear hard Mr. BATHURST said, he thought the Bill liable
upon that party in the State which happened to be to all the objections taken against it. What he him-
out of power ; yet he (Lord Castlereagh) would con- self most found fault with in it, was the sweeping
tend, that public men, out of office, might do impor- sort of clause which took away the whole patronage
taut service to their country. Mr. Burke and Mr. of the Crown ;—and even supposing that it should
Pitt acted upon principles different from this Bill. leave it in a better state (which lie did not admit
They abolished offices, not as being sinecures, but as that it did), yet it was such anlalteration of the system
tending to strengthen the influence of Government, as he, for one, could not agree to.
•or unnecessarily increase the public burthens. He Mr. CANNING and Mr. BATHURST severally ex-
' (Lord Castlereagh) conceived this Bill too aristocra- plained.
tical in its tendency ;it went to exclude the want of Mr. PONSONBY said, the Bill of the Honourable
personal. fortune from the offices of State. The mea- Gentleman on the floor had been very hardly dealt
sure was unconstitutional and aristocratical in a higher by. The Noble Lord, and his adherents on the other
degree than was allowed by the principles of the Bri- side of the House, had allowed there were many
-List) Constitution. He should not at present go into parts of the Bill deserving of their own support, and
'the view of the patronage of the Crown, Official therefore if they meant to deal candidly by it, they
emolument was not now an object of so much'consi- ought to move to have it re-committed, and not vote
deration as it had once been • and by the present Bill for its rejection. He would allow the justice of the
the Public would be deprived of the advantage of argument, that the Bill would do little by way of
great talents, unless unitedlffith private wealth : the economy. If it had passed some years ago, we should
Bill was also too favourable to those who had long now see many large sums in.the hands of the public,
been in possession of political power. which had so long passed out of them. The Noble
Mr. CANNING observed, that having supported Lord's plan, according to his argument, was to leave
-the measure in a former Parliament, he should state these things just as they were before Parliament had
briefly tp the House his ground for thinking that the interfered at al:, and to restore the power, at present
Bill now before them was entitled to their support. suspended by Parliament, of granting Sinecure Offices
The question respecting a different sentiment being in reversion. The Noble Lord had expressed his
held in another place, for alluding to which the Ne- concern, that he, and those who acted with him in
ble Lord had so properly been called to order, was opposition to Ministers, should not have the power
not a subject for the consideration of that House, of granting offices for five years. From the tone and
particularly on a question of economy and finance. manner of the Noble Lord, he was almost led to be-
On other questions, a similar difference of opinion : lieve the Noble Lord had an idea of retiring from
bad prevailed, but the perseverance of the House had ! office ; but he had at last civalified his speech by
ultimately triumphed. This had been particularly adding—" if they should ever be thought fit to be-
evident in the case of the Slave Trade, where the re- come Ministers of the Crown." Those who sat on
peated rejection of the Bill had, in another quarter„ his side of the House were, homelier, very little ob-
never been urged as a reason against its being enter- I liged to the Noble Lerd for his tender concern ; but
Pained in that House. The Noble Lord had taken he hoped, whenever they did come into the service of
up the question in the light of economy and of a po- the Crown, they would never be found eager to hunt
litical arrangement. For many years the question had after places, pensions, or offices ; but would exert
been agitated for a total abolition of sinecure offices, themselves in exercising their abilities for the welfare
as being subservient to'no useful purpose. The ar- of their country, and the honour and dignity of the
gpmerit in favour of retaining them had been, that State. The great merit of the Bill is, that it will
though in theory sinecure and office are contradictory , give power to Parliament to reward real merit, and
terms, yet that Mr. Burke had seen in these offices a : will put it out of the power of the Crown to give Si-
meani of rewarding efficient services—and that if, necure Offices where there is no merit/at all: as such
abstracting from theory, you looked round into pub- he thought it worthy of his support, and of the ap-
lic life, you would find the individuals who were best , probation of the House. .
entitled to pensions in the possession of sinecure offices.) Mr. sTEni EN said he objected to the Bill, be-
This no doubt held good with respect to almost all cause it went to cancel all previous merit. If persons,
the great offices of die State, which would generally I had rendered the most eminent services to the State,
be found in the possession of some individual or his' and to the couno y, during four years, and at the end
immediate descendant, who had rendered emine,nt ! of that period went out of office, it would be out of
services to the public. TO the justice of this no ob- : the power of the Crown to reward them for their
jection could be made, and herd the Noble Lord and; past services. He alluded to what Mr. Canning had
himself were agreed. If the present Bill were of an i laid some stress upon, viz an adherence to office in
aristocratical tendency, he should say, that such al the Noble Lord and his friends. The Right Hon.
measire could not be adopted without injury to the , Gentleman had himself been one of those friends for
Constitution, and to such a measure he should never some years, and he cc wish to see him once more
give.his. support—but, on the contrary, 'tile Bill ena- ! pass the narrow straight between his present seat and
bled the Crown to allure more talent into the service i that of theNobleLord—(a laugh)—though he should
of the State. The Noble Lord had stated that the be sorry that his services should go unrewarded for
Bill would bear hard upon-those who had'not been, i five years: It had been said elsewhere, that Opposi-
as he expressed it, in the habits of office. If the , tion had the Right Hon. Gentleman's speeches, bur
Crown were in possession of a fixed fund, and at any l Ministers had his votes—" I take her body, you her
given time for the reward of public services, this ar.! mind," &c. as the Poet said. He (Mr. Stephen)
gurrient would'hold good. But this was not the case. should, • haivever, Mee glad to have both body and
He himself was no zealot on this subject. The mode mind in this case ; and that, while the Right Ho-
was indifferent, the means were the question. But if nourable Gentleman gave his side of the House his
the mode of rewarding services by sinecure offices vote, he would cease to favour Opposition with
had fallen into disrepute, then some other mode must the assistance of his speeches. The Right Ho-
be resorted to frir accomplishing tile end. The Noble nourable Gendoman had said, that Sinecure Places
Lord said the Bill would make time the test of merit.' ex vi termini were opprobrious, but that pensions were
But a test must be had, and what test so simple as not so. On this point he differed with him in opi-
tirne ? The question was to give the Crown a power nioa ; he thought there was nothing offensive in the
limited by thee, in preference to a power limited by one more than in the other.' That high authority
chance—(Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord seemed to Doctor Johnson, in the first edition of his Dictionary,
foiget that the power of granting offices in reversion had put down to the wotJ, Pension, " wages given
had been suspended; for to make his plan complete to a State Hireling for treason to his country ;" and
he must do away that Bill. A power was substi- ' though by his leaving it °tit of his second edition, it
tutcd to reward merit, aqd to prevent abuse, a cer- appeared that great Lericograp-her bad changed his
tarn time was selected. As things now stood, the opinion, he was afraid the public had not done the
-Clown might have a great Minister, who upon his re- same, but that the impression of the first 'still re-
tirement irom office, might sink into poverty because mined. The Learned Gentleman then adverted to
the sinecure offices were lull. The system of sine.! that part of the Bill which proposed the abolition of
cures was so.full of uncertainty, that Parliament had , West India sinecures. The salaries of these offices,
been bbliged to prop it up, by providing in some in- which were generally held by depiity, while the prin.
stances a suitable remuneration. This was the cap ' cipal resided in England, mostly arose from mci-
with respect to the office of Chancellor—as he,' dental fees in law-suits, which were not much felt by
in mast 'cases, gave up a large income from profes- the litiganti, while, in other cases, as in the A 7mi-
tion“l exertions, and as his habits and modes of life r tityCourts, great part of them was paid by foreigner,.
were altered, it was judged proper that he should be ,n some caszs it was an advantage that the printipal
indemnified hy a pension for life. But this would not should be resident in this country. From tile ii.ao-
apply generally, and in the case of subordinate of- riou abuses which existed in Courts of Justice iii tilt
fices nu provision had been made by Act of Parlia: West Indies, it was most important that credurs
anent.* Half a century ago the system had beau s a should not depend for the recovery of their debts' On

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