Star.
London, England, 1809-05-27 00:00:00

Mr. HTTSKISSON mentioned, that in the next isitte of Ex-
chequer Bilk, the interest would be reduced from SO. per ceat.
per day to Sid. which, upon the number generally in circulation,
would produce a saving to the country of about tEIOO,OOO a-year.
It was also settled, that any discussion an his Majesty's Mes-
sage, relating to pecuniary assistance to Austria, Spain, or Pot-
toga!, should take plate when the Report should be received.
The House having resolveditself in- o 'he Committee, three mil-
lions were voted to his Majesty, and 300.0001. for exigencies foe
Ireland.
The Report was ordered to be received on Tuesday next.
ADJOURNED DEBATE.
Mr. CURWEN moved the order of the day for
resuming the adjourned debate on the Bill for the
Prevention of the Sale of Scats in Parliament. •
The SPEAKER explained, that the question was,
that he now leave the Chair.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT observed, that the object
of the Bill proposed by his Hon. Friend would be of
importance at any time, but it was more imperiously
called for at this hour than any other. He felt anxi-
ous at all times to promote such regulations "as were
calculated to give effect to the spirit of the Grenville
Act. This was a privilege that the House constitu-
tionally possessed, and which it bad often beneficially
exerted. He need only mention the recent case of
Aylesbury. The measure now proposed was pre-
cisely of the same nature, with this only difference,
that it went to prevent corruption ; the Aylesbury
Bill to punish. That case was particularly flagrant.
So notorious was the corruption, that the sale of that
Borough was effected by del 'gates c—ming up to town
and seeking for a purchaser with whom they might
traffic. That offence was punished by disfranchising
the corrupt electors, and calling in others from the
adjacent districts, to purify and correct the corrupt
mass ef voters. The effect of this salutary measure
was the establishment of the influence of_ property,
which he maintained to be a perfectly constitettional
influence. He could not agree with a Right Hon.
Member below him (Mr. Windham) that it was the
duty of the House to make a stand against innova-
tion ; but he thought that they should firrt correct
abuses, and then make their stand. For his own carte
he had no fear that any general call would be made'
in the country that could bring the constitution into
danger. Whenever any cry was raised for the pur-
pose of overawing the deliberations of the Legisla-
ture, its Mischiefs were not of long duration. The
people soon recovered Irons it, and its effects fell on
the heads of those who excited it. He was persuaded
that great benefits would he derived trom the mea-
sure; and he wished it to be impressed upon the
people, that the House was disposed to deal out equal
justice to the 'elected and electors. It would also
operate as a guard to popular election. The operation
of the Bill would be particularly favourable to Bur-
gage tenure, and men of talents would be more likely
to find their way into that House than if money were
the sole passport to it. Those who possessed influence
would look out for men of talents and virtue, such as
would be a credit to themselves and their recommen-
dation. Of this a memorahle instance occurred in
Ireland, where Lord Charlemont introduced into the
Parliament of that country a member (whom he was
proud to call his friend,) of distinguished talents,
and who had proved himself not only the friend
of his country, but the friend of humankind ;
he meant the Right Hon. Member (Mr. Grattan) for
the city of Dublin. ( Hear, hear!) That Nobleman,
upon being applied toeipon some proposition relating
to the surrendering of boroughs, eeplied that so long
as he had held his borough, he had considered him-
self as holding it in trust for the public, and that he
had always returned such persons for it as were capa-,
ble of rendering them service. The Hon. Member
observed, that if ever there was a time when' it was
I incumbent on Parliament to consult the popular opi-
nion, and to endeavour to acquire confidence by fair
and legal means, it was the present. He would not
go the length of saying, that they were bound in all
cases to surrender their opinion to that of the people,
but th it they should look with doubt upon any opi-
nion of their own, contradictory even to the preju-
dices of the people. The common enemy could not
possess a greater friend in this country, and one who
could more powerfully contribute to aid him in his
design upon it, than he who would advise Parlia-
ment to scout popular opinion. There was a defer-
ence justly due in this country to the popular voice.
The Representatives of the People would adopt no
mere effectual means of recommending themselves
to the confident. of the people, than by doing away
what was called the trade of Parliament. : t was no-
torioes that many persons.paid their money for seats
in that House upon speculation. The speculator pur-
chased a ticket, in the parliamentary lottery, and the
public were sure to ray the prize. Of these specu-
lators some .were commercial, some professional per
sons ; but the object of both wete the same. Now he
wished to put down this traffic, and conceiving that
it would be effected by the Bill before the House, he
would vote for going into the Committee.
Mr. W. SMITH did not wish to bear the word re-
form run down, :is Parliamentary Reform (which it
here signifies) ie as different from anarchical reform
as any two things can possibly be. But if he did not
think this Bill would go farther than it now proposes
to do, he would not give his vote for its going into
the Committee. His objection to it was, that
.it dots
not cut corruption up by the roots, it only lops off the
branches ; and he thought the plan of reform pro-
pt sed by Mr. Pitt infinitely better, as it went to dig
up the very sources of corruption, which this does not
GMORGE R. do. He saw no use for administering an oath against
" st y was directed Returns to be made and certified bribery by money, since any ambitious country gen-
hy the Arcuhishno att,i Eiwlopc t,f Engin:A and Wali 5, of the tleinan, who had a seat to dispose of, might go to the
Namber of I:ivitigtoraiLi- the Value of £l5O per AnLein ; andl Treasury, and c echange it to be made a Baronet, &c.
rtirornc,tio.fintte frz trhatj,
dßeitnurts-tse,
,t,hciaat rdtutvtdithstandittg the unless some renedy is provided for that, when the
Queen Anne, tor the malting ,iore effe3czul.:leahrtsiroArAlair js .M7'aj7t
6 ary Bill is hi the Cemmittee, he said he would not vote
does intentions ter rile a..7,!eiva.init of the maiinenaiice of g 'tee for its going Out of the House. He declared, it was.
Clergy,poor
rho :Tr her Majesty to grant in perpetuity the with pride he beheld those men, who were destined to
Re r sues ei.afeitihtiee,ktint,:maintenaticebelun
ing tii the Clergy in eiv.tr"i,spaanttds doin is still mean andg- be th! ornaments of the other house of Parliament,
tusallicient.sanding forth among those who were thei supporters
Majesty has directed an Abstract of the Returns, as far of the democratic part of our Constitution. Such were
n cicieueteslectsfoecto lie laid before the House of the younger branches oF the Nobility in that House.
Commons can find my proper
aC'uthniernlonnsfi sane
havean e ifb tthel
e .viojesty to accelerate the o erallon of the
methud enabling Mr. SPENCER STANHOPE said, he never saw
said Act, it Will be a great ativartage to the public,P
and very tic- a more imperfect Bill than the present, but he had no
eeptable to his Maj.:sty.
" it objection to its going into a Committee.
On the Motion of the CHANCELLOR of .the Mr. DAVIS GIDDY observed, that it was the
EXCHEQUErt, the Mess:qte was ordere.: to be re_ i common course of things for every sae, ies of property
{erred to the Committee of :nipple. to be represented ; and it was impossible to prevent
WAYS AND eteaes. great capitalists, whether in-land or in money, from
On the motion of the lAN •
Exchequer little, were votocl
CEl.l.Olt of thcEXCHEQUFR o
wards
ion, to he raised by llh r. r.re,ented in that house. It was well known
weeds roo mast:ie supplies.—Rt port toil uesday. that the greatest Statesmen, who ever were in that
ki ere re; OF SCPPLY. House, had come in from small boroughs; it was
previous to the reading of the order of the Jay for go,s into through these that eminent merchants and eminent
eosin:etre 01 seee,y,
soldiers came into the House ; he would therefore

PARLIAMEATARr PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, MAY VI.

After further coraideration zlf the Arpeah, Pltyfair v. Mae-
t.bnald;and of Arrixt 17. Hint, the judgments of the Court bsluw
were reVers.d.

Counscl were again hoard in the Appeal Frank ; after
which, a fucher hearing w►s ordered for Wednesday next.
ticv.•ra Bills were br....lght up from the Commons, and read a
first time.

leave it to the House, whether these should not enryle here ppliticai power—aat this borough-71 naTgi
t
in through the small boroughs ? He did not see why cobinism should be destrcycd. But after
great fuad-helders should not have seats in the House. made this dealt-odor, Co. lion. Gentle
For these reasons he would not limit the number of round, and ortolled the eAvanteges derived fiotel—ti;
small boroughs. He thought it would he an im- rotten. boroeghs (Hear, bar).
nrenglis e..
provement to the Constitution, if the small bormglis s tid Isroeght ads...not:Tr of d'fferent deec,
were increased. He contended that no great country into the Hnese—men of talents. Ii -t they
raated
Could e'er exist with a legislative power approaching no adventurers. Whitt was requited was a seel
to a democracy ; because the legislative would then check on the Government ; end for this rem '
overawe the executive power. In the midst of this Hense of Cornrows prepetly constituted reg Y-o. s, ---4
war, the prosperity of the conntry was encreasing well answer, ni:liont lawyers and r her Ade-enter,:
every day. The agriculture of the country was Titer object was the Security or t 7, crn,arry. 1.1;
proved in a high degree; and he would oppose any had no desire for ornaments ; they wanted befits a.:14
measure that might tend to make an alteration in the bits to confine the executive witliie roper nee its p %,"'
...
present system of the country. One week's confusion If it was die design of the rvin. gerelemsn is se;
would be more dangerous than three years corrupt tinue a system which rendered the House
suOseres-2:
influence. to the Minister, in other wor s, to have pri j;
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, that doctrines so Government:, w 1:: did he net .r p 0;" !H tv.
i Ft n.
novel and extraordinary had lately• been introduced without the. Fewest incumbreace ? Ia this
is I, ay tee
into that House, he found himself altogether at a loss constitutien was a farce— • mere masquertas. if„e
how to answer them. The situation in which he stood must have a despotism, why not eave it rinieet ay
at that moment was so new and so unknown to the this m ich.nery end expensive appe.nclages ? Adven.
received and acknowledged principles of the Coned- ing to the observations of the Hone' r. Ges,
tution, that he could not but conceive the House no denten upon the case of usury, the Henri:table.
longer wore the appearance of being the Representa- Baronet observed, that the,l eves egaiest eery weir
tives of the Commons House of Parliament. The ineffectual, because the system was wrong. The,
circumstances of the present clay were so new and sin- stilly confined the trede to the worst detrieti net per;,
gular, that it teemed impossible to call that House pie, and prevented a flit cornpeer:ion. So this ba
the Representatives of the Nation—bin, like the would only aggrava:e the evil, inasmuch as tee system
atoms of Epicurus, some represented one thing and was radically bad. As the lass against usury gave
some another—wine represented certain sm ell par- the monopoly to the worst description of pork, su
cels of individuals, some their own money; but, least this bill would give the monopoly of the Seat Tots-
of all, did they represent the Commons of England. to the Treasury. Unless you stopped the mirket
He felt, therefore, considerable difficulty how to act; together, you only did Mischief by preventing a free
but he was determined to do his duty to those who traffic. It the bill could be eflicieot, which it caned
had delegated him to that place, and would raise his not, the Treasury would monopolize the whole, and
voice in as strong and energetic language as decency i therefore while the system coetinued, it was let ern
and decorum would allow, against that system of cor- I have a free market. If the House was not to le cor.
ruption which, if not immediately assailed and spec- nosed of Representatives of the People, it would be
dily*overcome, must prove most disastrous and de. infinitely better to have an auction of seats ; to have
structive to the dearest and most vital interests of the , a public mart where ail might go, and conduct mat.
country and of the constitution. The present debate ters openly. Where all was conducted in this ores
had been originally opened by an Hon. Gentleman way, the barter might be turned to some advantage.
Apposite, who he did not then see in his place, in the In the first plate, the money might be turned to pub.
most extraordinary manner, and upon the most extra- he purposes. We might then
;getaltriiidouogfhthheedseal‘%'.
delicacy
vagant ground. he had ever heard of. He had at- which still rent:tined these subjects, and speak
tempted to justify the present mode of sending Mem- openly what every knew
hers to that House, by comparing it with what had reason why the ears of Gentlemen should be More de.
been done in former periods of our history. He (Sir licate than their consciences. ( Hear ! hear!) Another
F. Burden) thought it, however, necessary to state, advantage would be, that the man who purchased
that if that House could be allowed to be viewed in with his money would, in all probability, be more i .
any other light than that of the Representatives of dependent than p'acernen, and those who represented
the People, they would lose all their dignity and im- their patrons. For, Recce dine to the modern im-
portance. That Hon. Member, in the statement which rality, these last were bound by private honour, while
he made in order to cover the shame of their House, a man might purchase and Trove an hnnourabla set-
for the transactiops Which had lately passed it it, had vent of the public. taut this Lill, like all shim mea-
avowed that the House had formerly been in the pay sures, would be inefficient. ea it it was not, it wcul.',
of a French monarch. He knew not to what particto is he had stated, give the tronnpoly of the market
lar periodehe Hon. Gentleman meant to allude.— to the Treasury. While he said this, he was d
Whether it was to Charles the Second, when he sold sirous tr do justice to an in lependent Men.b :
Dunkirk to the French, or to the particular case of of Parliament. He was f illy convinced that the H -
Barillomptho took upon hOrre to stigmatize that House nourable Gentleman who brought in the bill expo.
with the title of the Pensioned Parliament. He did ted that great public advantage would result from is
not envy the Hon. Member hi; feelings, which could The Hon. Baronet also objected to the Bill in anotho
permit hiM to bring forward such an extennatien view. Oaths were already too common in the let's-
of the present proceedings of that House. if he latirn of this cnuntry, and the extension of then
meant to say that Members had a right to sit there by would be a great evil. The misfortune besides eas,
means of corruption, he hoped this doctrine would th it they would not be effectual for their pursose.—
stimulate Ministers to act and openly to declare, that How mach were they abused in the excise and is °nee
the House, as then constituted, was not the Com- revenue Cases ? Was the oath if qualification sufb.
mons House of Parliament. dent for its object ? He saw no reason why this oil
The SPEAKER called the .Honourable Baronet should haste more virtue than others, except on at:
to order. count of its length, fur it WAS the longest he had ent
Lord ARCHIBALD HAMILTON submitted, seen. Ile was averse besides to oaths as a.check en
whether, under the peculiar circumstances of the case, cond mt. But still his great objection to this Bill was,
the Honourable Baronet might not deny that this was that it would, under the present system,: rather eggio
properly the House of Commons, since, by the openly vete than remedy the evl of which the nation had so
avowed and defended corruptions, the House itself much reason to compla'n. An sther singular circum.
appeared to have disclaimed that tide. stance to which he cool I not- help adverting, was,
The SPEAKER said, that it was his. duty to call 'that old notions seemed to be so completely obliteratei
any Member tb order who affirmed that this was not I that they were reptoached fer that which formerly
the House of Commons—and he would do so as long would have been reckoned an honour—namely, that
as the House supported him. (Hear, hear.) they were of no party. The:gentlemen of the prciest
Sir FRANCIS then observed, that he was perfectly' d;y seemed to be astonished at Caere. " You d ret
aware of the impartiality of the Speaker's conduct on w tnt plate or pension, you say—Why what are you
this as well as on other occasions ; but he would re- lat ? What object can you possibly have in eiew ?
collect, that until the 12th of this month, the claim . You must surely b' trailers." They had been re-
of the House to be called the Houk of Commons proached for not desiring a change of Ministers. But
was founded on its assumed purity. He admitted, why should they desire:My., Lange ? They did not se:
however, the necessity of some rules to guide the pro- that the Ministers conducted m 'tters at all in a were
ceedings ; and the Speaker; no doubt, spoke from the • way than their predecessors, who taunted him for
remembrance of former periods. But then he must 1 being of no party. lie would nst join any faction:
allow that he (Sir F. Burden) spoke in a situation but he would be clad to support any. Minister who
and under circumstances entirely new. The Hon. I acted properly. Tlie only return he could make to that
Baronet then resumed his argument, and said, that numerous body•which had sent him to that House,
the Honourable gentleman (Mr. G. Johnstone) had so undaservedly perh:tps on his pet, but so honour.
boasted of the purity of the present assembly, by corn- " ably to themselves;, was to refrain from termentiog
paring it with what the House of Commons was der- the Ministers, and to stand up there onlsoon peat
ing die existence of the South Sea Scheme. But the coestitmional p ints, as a guarlsin of the riches acid
Honourable Gentleman had forgotten to state that the privileges if tlie people. The Gentlemen of the
the Members who bad Leen detected in that instans,e Opposiden were like :one one in The Rehearsal—their
were expelled the )douse, and punished in variaus old mester turned t em off, and no one el,e
ways—and that the Commons then had pureed off . receive thcni. The. seid th :t their delinquency con.
the baser matter. ( Hear, hear.) In order to prove s'sted in having be 'n in Cfhc Noe n one Lad re-
the purity and dignity of the 'louse in the present - proacbed dism with :hat cii,umstancie. Their t
times, the Honourable Gentleman had alluded to the queneyeconsisted in not havieg pet formed what they
cases of Lord Melville and the Duke of York. In' had promised to the 'whet. Ile had host dof a lank-
the former case, it was only by the casting vote of the : rupt fortune h ving 'wen owed, in that House ; but
Speaker that the dignity of the house was at all sup- . e had new.: heard of .t broksn eh rater having been
ported—but the Speaker would recollect that those retrieved. sA preset ma y BTs ha.' be 3 brought in to
who endeavoured to save Lord Melville, even from remedy the evil o the system ; tit i was in vain to
censure, voted for his impeachment, in order to los- attempt to alter the natu e taco thin ,by these ems-
cue him from the equal justice of a Jury. (Hear, clients. The Hope:ea-Able adv reed, as an ire
hear.) As to the case of the Duke of Yak, he was stance, to a BiAir eight in by :i.Burke to correct the
at a less to conceive how that could be turned into a mischiefs cf die system, and to eecci. an economical re-
proof of the purity of the House, which had cleared form. It had been introduced with ail that pump of do.
his Royal Highness, while even the Ministers, in de- spience with which he could adorn the slight :st subjects.
ference to the opinion of the,people, whom an Hon. It was a sort of substitute for Parliamentan Refoi
Gentleman near him (Mr. D. Giddy) had declared to and was to Le eternal in its operatioas, Iks the great
be incapable of judging of these matters, had advised principles on which it WAS founded. But Mr.lltoks
the resignation of the Duke of York. This they had himself had outlived its operation. In oppoe.ti• 0."
done out of respect to that opinion, which the House the economical part of that Bill, too, Lor,ll\idvi ;.e
'had disregarded. But suppose, as that Honourable li of flatly refused to give ;lily account of :In 119.1(e
iii
Gentleman bad said, that the House had been curs upt which he had expended a large sum, lied et eioes-
from the time of the Revolution, were we to justify who talked' so ranch about the dignity if the House,
crime by crime ? Many persons in that House had did not move that Lord.MelyiLe be seat to :11::Ton'es.
said, that the system would lead to arbitrary power :Bet this Bill would Le tnischievoes pohn
—but he believed it could scarcely have been in the of view, it would act-as, an indemnity to, ail past es-
contemplation of any one, that a Minister would ever linquencies. It was now civility steted, that :sorrily-
have dared to avow what was now openly defended. ton h.id been going' on: since th' If it
The Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down, • was so it was treason to Abe teonetitutien. If such a
had made such contradictory statements, that it was mode of proceeding had beeneadopted %%Oda respat
difficelt to fellow him. He said that political power the Executive part of the Go veninient it, wool.; le a
ought not to be separated from property. Why, that fin feiture of life. Belt eeils'lhere no treason iiihictiee
was the very ground on which they :toad. Their against the libe'tt ef't)l4.s(iLject ? Suppose that,'
object woe, that they who had no property should not century hence some Minister, such a one who 10-IF

4