Star.
London, England, 1812-04-24 00:00:00

general good that America was taxed (but this had ,
not been found to he so) and this was also said by, the
disqualifications attached to the Catholics of Ireland.
There were two laws, the municipel law, and the law
'of GOD. When any Parliament acted contrary tattle
law and order of Gon, as expressed in his works, nr in
the Bible, that Parliament exceeded kapowei s. When;
a Parliament, as in such a case as the present, rested
its powers on such a foundation as that which had II
now been thought sufficient to deprive risen of their j
rights, it in effect opposed the Autumn' ; and
though it had an army of Michaels on its side, yet
it struck' GOD out of its ecclesiastical proceedings,
and liberty out of its policy. This system had com-
menced with America, and thence extended itself to
It eland. With respect to the Catholic religion, there
were three objections started. The first was the eu-
charist ; the secondeethe adorations of the Virgin
Mary ; the third, the; spiritual power of the Pope.—
The two first contained nothing whatever in them of
political moment;and ought therefore to be rejected,
' with which an enlightened Parliament ought never
to interfere i he would therefore look to the third.
On this he had to observe, that the Catholics had ab-
jured the interference of the Pope in temporal affairs.
The objection lately started with respect to the sa-
crament of Inarriaee, was one which ought to have
no weight, as marriage being but a civil contract,
could not controul the law of the land. Excommu-
nication, which had been mentioned, had nothing to
do with the subject, and no power possessed by the
Consistoriel Court had the effect of making the Ca-
tholics other than good subjects, as a reference to the
good' conduct of the Catholics in other countries
would sufficiently prove. Now, with respect to the
Pope's commandieg the allegiance of Catholics, and
of being able at any time to detach them from their
Sovereign ; he woeld ask if this were the case, how
the present Pope came to be in his present situation?
Did such appear to be his power in the countries of
France, Germany, and Italy ? Was it such in that
where he is now a prisoner ? Aye, but then it was.
said in the Petition from Cambridge, that his power
was greater than ever. Was such, he would ask,
the case with Ferdinand of Spain ? He was a pri-
soner like the Pope, but would it. be contended that
his power also was greater than ever ? Considered
as an argument, this was absurd—was ludicrous in-
' deed. He begged to ask whether or not the present
Adechtistration had exacted any guard from Spain
and Portugal against the influence of the Pope? If
;
i not, according to the arguments he ird at home, the
I country was put to an ex-pence of 4'20,000,000—f0e
! what? Why to raise the power of Fiance in those
countries by means of the Pope, as it was said he
was more formidable than ever; now lie was a pri-
soner in the bends of France. .In the Peninsula,
though he had heard of no such arrangement having
been made, England was seen fighting for Church
' and Shiite. Thus, while we were labouring to shew
lk our attachment to bigotry, we trod on it when it
. c nee is, our teat-, and 'only raised it up to oppress
the se whose interest we ought to regard as identified
with our own. He would contend, that as the Pope
I at present was perfectly inaccessible, his spiritual
powcr eves at an end, and therefore the Catholic Re-
lie ien was as much separated from any foreign con-
! cera, arany other dissenting sect, and ought not to
labour under religious disabilities, more than other
dissenters. When the present situation of the P. pe
' was considered, he thought they had no right to say
Ithey could not now come to such an arrangement
(even in this Session) as should release the Catholics
from those restrictiens of which they cones:allied
He hoped they would not say now that they were
! not agreed among themselves, and that is was there-
! fore of no use w go into a Committee. This he de-
nis.l. 1-12 denied that the people of England were
against Catholic Ernancipatice, and seas satisfied ;no
I solid objection stood in the way, hut these which
rested with the }resent Crown Ministers. It wes
isaid that we tolerated the Catacolic religion. Ile
denied this to be the f..ct. They did not tu.eraes it;
on the contrary, they punished it. %Vas he i:: An
English assembly, and would it be seht that civil
i disquaiifications were not a pusiisionent ? What was
toleration but the extension of potter to protect the
property and lives of subjects—to guard against the
1 exertions of arbitrary peewee, and to prevent taxation
without representation, o gether with a security for
ia free and fair trial by Jury ? The Catholics had
none of these. They were not tried by their Peers,j
I but by Protestant partisans, and he particularly wish.'
ed this to be inqvileil into. How many instances
I were there in which no Catholic could be admitted
on a jury ? In which the High Sheriff was a Prote-
stant partisan ? The Catholic, in ninny instances,
I had not the same advantages as a foreigner. He
I had not a jury half of his own persuasion, but on a
question of disqualification, he was tried by a jury j
of those who disqualified him. It might be said
that this was ambition in the Cathclic which made
him wish to be relieved from evils like these. Why',
so it was, but it was merely an ambition to possess'
the common rights of nature; it was the ambition of
a woman not to be ravished ; it was the ambition of
a man not to be murdered : and was such a feeling
to be censured as ambitious ? If this, inele opinion 11
of the British Parliament, was ambition, %that must
be their ideas of liberty ? He denied that the Act of
the year 1793 gave the Catholics civil power, and it
was another reason for. taking the subject into consi-
deration, that Gentlemen were so unapprised of the
nature of the law with respect to Catholics. The
Catholics merely called for some security against
that policy which rendered the English name odious
in Ireland, which made British faitte
.equivocal
in Ireland, and !which went to disinherit and dis-
qualify
one fourth of the population of the Bri-
tish Empire. Where was the danyer of doing
this ? Was it in the Eucharist? in
. Was it the
adoration paid to the Virgin Mary ? or did it
arise from the apprelie.nsion entertained of the familyj
of the Pretender ? Let those who contended there
was danger in giving what the Catholics claim-
ed,
answer these questions. Let them set forth
their trains of hobgoblins and witches at once.—
Let
them 'give some reason—some apology for ba-
nishing the Catholics from the enjoyment of civil
rights to all eternity. To the objections urged against
the Pope, he would answer, Ist, that he had at pre-.'
•sept no pilwer ; 2dly, that France had no power over
his disposition ; and idly, that the Roman Catholics
have now no communication with him. The danger
.apprehended then was not immediate, and could only
be prospective. It was sow said the Catholics would

'not concede the veto, but it was to be remembered
that Governmeaft might 'have had it before. They
might have had the veto in 1795, in Iboo, in 1805.
and in 1808. If then they had not.got the veto, the
fault wes theirs. They had no right to ask where
was now the veto ? If they asked him that question,
his answer would be, that it was where they had put
it. What remained to be done ? Would they send
persons to make proselytes of the Irish ? Would they
take away their arms ? Would they drive them from
the army ? They were too wise to do this. What
then ? Would they corainue the disqualifications to
throw odium on the English name, and to alienate
Ireland ? Would they seek security in a virtual
separation ? He would say it was necessary to the
connection between the two countries, to tell the Irish
people that England was not an enemy to their pri-
vileges, and to tell the English people that Ireland
was not adverse to than. -But when each country
! was told the Contrary, the seeds of di*ontent were
sown ; the wife was induced to divorce from the
. husband, and each was instigated to hate, and to
annul that marriage tie in which they had been here-
' tofore bound. it for the purpose of securing amity,
of blending and uniting all classes and descriptions
of subjects, they would found their empire upon the
strong ground of mutual privileges; they would es-
tablish a strength which nothing could suirclue, and
attach a copulation which never would desert them,
not even in the last extremity.—( Hear, hear.)—He
considered this a cause which might appeal to every
quarter of the globe from circumference to centre,
and he was certain it would live when dull declama-
tion was silent and forgotten. He could as soon be-
lieve that the navy of England would be borne away
by witches—that its army would be annihilated by
an equally ridiculous disaster, as Vett that House,
upon any gtoundless alarm, could forget its pru-
dence, its wisdom, and itejustice. He found by the
call of the House that there were many Gentlemen
present who were not accustomed to attend, and to
them he would beg to address a few words. They
would be told that the people of Ireland were too
barbarous to exercise such functions as the acceding
to their claims would extend to them. Bat what was
this ? In other words it was saying that the English
Government in Ireland was a nuisance. They would
be told that the Catholic religion renders d the exer-
cise of those functions still more dangerous. And
what was this ? In other words it was saying that
religion contributed to their barbarism; and the in.
ference to be drawn from both was, that both should
be got rid of. They would be told in addition to
this, that the act of settlement precluded such a
grant, but he would ask where was the clause in
which such a prohibition eras contained, or where
was the spirit from which it was apparent ? No
clause to such an effect could be shewn, and the spirit
was altogether on the opposite side. To such doc-
trines as those, the Catholic would answer, that it
was utterly impossible to make religion the measure
of empire ;--he would answer, that in the Act of
Union the oath was provisional, and intended to last
only till Parliament should alter it to the contrary.
Those were the Nlinleers who, if they did not intro-
duce, at least weed for the act drawn up in this
provisionary manner, which they were now so anxious
to represent as fundamental and immutable. It was 1
a dect whin on the people of Ireland. He would ask
why were Catholic foreigners employed in hie,ll trrtii
tary situations? If all that was advanced against
the professors of that religion were well founded,
was it that they reserved exclusion for their own
countrymen and fellew-subjects ? He would deny
that, aceordine to the Constitution, this WAS a Pro-
testant Parller.ent : by the Act of 1793, the Com-
mons repre,ent;:d Catholics, for the Catholics wcrc
posses:ea! ef the elective franchise. In answer to all
that was said against the admission of Roman Ca-
; th(3.ICS into the S mete, he would beg leave to appeal
to the practice of Ministers ; he would ask them why
the Irish Catholic It4as admitted into the army and
Into the navy ? He would then appeal to the Ad e,
ruire:s of the Navy, and the Generals of the Army,
tu know how they behaved ?—(Hear, htar.)—He
I would ask the public papers how many of them had
died in the service ? He would ask them how many
Catholic Officers had been wounded, and whether
they could become Generals ?—( Hear, hear.)—He
I would ask the public opinion what characters they
had maintained in all tie relations of life ? he would
ask the Protestant houses of Lcinster, of Ormond,
and of- LateucHe, who resided amongst them, and
who were therefore not only the most competent
judges of their character, but the most immediately
interested in any question in which they were con.
cerned ; he would appeal to the hospitals which were
filled with their wounded, and to the fields of Porta
gal which were strewed with their dead.—(Hear,
hear.)—He vettild appeal to the principles of the
cons:itution against that policy, which would set men
to cut each other's throats in a metaphysical, eccle-
siastical and unintelligible war ; he would appf•al to
every standard by which human conduct could be
tried against such mischievous, such malicious, and
such disgusting degradation. The whole case lay in
one sentence—the two countries were misted unless
they were united, and the language of Ireland was,
" we will have our liberties, and then our lives are
at your service."--(Hear, hear.)—He concluded with
moving e for a Committee to consider the state of
the Laws imposing Civil Disabilities on hisMejesty's
Subjects profiasing the Roman Catholic Religion."
Doctor DUIGENAN said, that the claims for'
which the Right Hon. Gentleman contended, could
only be effected in one way, and that was by the re-
peal of all those laws referred to in the oaths of supre-
macy, by the repeal of all tests and corporation acts,
and an alteration of the whole constitution horn the
first establishment c f the Protestant Religion in Eng-
land down to the present time. The Roman Catho-
lics insisted upon full emancipation—not s itisfiedl
to wait for any gradual course, they demanded the
instantaneous, sudden, and total repeal of all the
acts with which they were dissatisfied. IR the
reigns of Elizabeth and Charles the First, the eels
of uniformity were intended to be perpetual, and in
the Acnot Union with Scotland, these Acts were
again recited, and declared as operative in England,
Ireland, and Wales, and the town of Berwick upon
Tweed. But nut only were those declared funda-
mental articles in the Union with Scotland, it was an
article in the Union with Ireland, that the English
and Irish Church should be the same for ever: Our
modern philosophers and orators, it was true, decla-
red that these ought to be repealed—but be should

look rather to tie Acts themselves, and the gronnds .
which they were formed, than to their opinions. Aac,
tier circumstance w.ts, that the siting N.:15 bound 4 '
support the Church, as by law established, yet ei
pradge he was ciaded upon to sac' Mae, w htteat
de!usively called Catholic Emancieation. C,
tholics had' full religious liberty—titre had the omit
security fru their lives and propetties, that all Wig
subjects of th... •country •possessed—and they seaß
onlh required to toke the same test ai..l oaths—if tiles
arced to take tl.e:n, tl.ey hose as moats g.
betty, an.l as touch political power. They had as
mucii security for their boat ties as any subjects el
any nation on the f,ice of the valet. Could i• Ise bold
that the subjects of France and Germany pa,,
such liberty ef action, and such !,:curi:y of projers) ?
They claimed complete equality to: auohrhe raz E '- te
—in the army, in the navy, end in the State, and
that at the co; coca and hi defiance oldie two ,:c,s'lies
had uientianed. The House must see that the luag
was obliged to swear that la .con::! inviolably ~;ro
tain the Protestant Religion. Now if all the sectr
were demolished, how could that oath be miietaiueoft
The measure would not only go against the cam&
Lion oath, but against the prociplas of sae unit,.
with Scotland and Ireland, and :or the purpose at
gratifying die ambitian of those pets ins .al';, wise
hostile to the State. He should prs seiuly teat! .4 prG44
to spew that no person could be a true Rom in Ca.
tholic who did not feel such hostility. It mos ten•
tended, that they had a right to ieligintis
yet who were those hi whose
.favour this right was
insisted on ?—the most intolerant itligi. us body that
bad ever appealed on the face of the earth. They
were more intolerant than the Mahornetans them.
selves. What was it that established the Inqui,:tioa?
What was it that dictated the very last Coustitutioa
published by the Cones in Spain. ? It was then do.
termined that the Cat'oilic . religion should be the
only religion of the State, and the only one tolerated.
The Decrees of the Councils were almost matters of
faith with the followers cf ti.is religion—and inane
of those Decrees, it was set down that, who they
were weak, motives of policy should restran them,
but when they were powerful, it was at theism,*
discretion to opprest those ale, differed from thew
in faith. In Ireland, they did not meet with any
disturbance to their religicus tberty—what right
then had they to petition for what dery enjoyed ?
He was so tar a fi lend to religious liberty when
it was not hostile to the State, drat he thought aft
the people bad a right to. possess it—but in belied it
was never denied to them. The second giound npoa
which the advocates of the measure went, was the
of the numbers, wealth, and power of the Cohorts*
of Ireland. On asscriion it was stated, and nothing
but assertion was adduced in support of it, that there
were fur millions cf Catholics in Ireland, and that
the Protestants did nut amount to one in ten of this
population. There was now a Bill in Parliament to
which he was a great friend, which would go to as.
certain the real state of the population. But taking
Ithis at present irom die best source, that of the mi.
culation made by the collectors of hearth-money,
it would amount to a number much interim la
the parishes-of Lisburn and Glanevie, the most ma
nufactut ing and populous parts of the whole country,
'they would find, taking in children and all, that tho
calculation was about five and a
.quarter. What
must he tho w-Ate of it in miserable hots? Upon the
,whole they would find reasoti to cunclude, that thew.
pulation of the whole kingdom did not exceed three
millions five hundred thousand. On a c,alculatioatakea
'oby a Roman Catholic Bishop in the year 1652, tha.
population was estimated at two millions, one mill**
three huh„ red and fifty thousand of which were Ito-
man Catholics. It was seppwcd that since that period
they co iW not have increa, ed to so gnat. a number,
especially when they considered the cot:smut mire-
'
lions hoot that country were incredible. In Brim
they had not added more than eight millions to d*
population in die same space of time. For all this
mighty shay; of numbers there was nothing but Is.
semen on the other side, and he hoped that mai.
sertion was as good as another. With. *sped la
their wealth, it was stated at a prodigious rate. The
Gentlemen who alluded to it confined their obsess.
Lions to personal property alone, and for a very gat
reason, because they were aware that they had se
real prop. ty. He would venture to say, that ofie
real propel ty of this kingdcAm they did not pow*
one out al forty-nine parts ; and to the curnianno
trial property, they had not a tenth pan. The Right
Honourable Gentleman had said that this measure
carried with it the sense of the Protestants of Ireland.
It was our there were many petitions on the table.
but he was aware that applications had been made
to several Grand Juries tor the purpose. and wautei
as soon as they were prorosed. Other seeps woe
then adopted, and petitions %itNe surrept,ticusly sent
'about. 'those petitions received same cotzten Ance,
particularly from the Gentlemen of the Opposition.
—On- person was threatened, if he did not sign the
fire
Petition, that his house and goods would beset
1 to ; and every poor Protestant in a retail business is
I Dublin was instantly threatened with the less of his
business if he did not sign the Petition. This r..a.
tion was kept in a private room in the Co
Coffeehouse of Dublin, and if any person dewy
atonsTerield, hien was
naesgkaetdi vief,hei t
wwoausldw7shen Itswalntd.
hifina.he.
Beside,;, the Gentlemen who had
ticn had stated, that the signatures were not is the
out. lie knew
original hand-waiting, but all copied
;;;rwly tar e&
that there was one most respectable .
and ,
etiaistersbeorPtald
would contend that not one in a hundred tt5.c.00,11.0.-.
of it, but one voice was of little cores:
testatits of Ireland would sign such a Nut.
There were sortie Dissenting
the North of Ireland who were turned
fur .
meeting-houses, and locked out for ever,_
done so. To attempt to impose such thing 211 a.
ante of the people of Ireland W 45 gfeeb
which he was confident the Right Hon. (.7
tern mom which they came. , •
ki g in tha
were not above three to two, Li.
._l.l.
wousil not have practised
Rom •u
thecsisrove
classes and all ; so much for their %calm 71.*
hers, and their numbers was the strorigeslisted on. tst 7.....
s
Let the House rdiect upon
'see if in any other country the lower nom'is
i 4
called the nation. Protestants. si> •
maintained,theyhad were
thle e to
kear"l79:9lr.A!
were c
ihan sometk measure saus preparing,rprisedatthatirt:
knew