Star.
London, England, 1824-05-07 00:00:00

SA LT DUTI F.c.

Mr. CALCIUM begged to know from the Hon.
Member for NorfOlk,whether it was his intent inn to bring;
forward that night his motion respecting the Silt Duties?
Mr. NVODELIOUSLI replied that he would certlinly
bring forward the motion, ovideJ he could do so at a
convenietit time; but as that would depend upon the
llonourable Member for Aberdeen, lie begged to refer
die Honourable Gentleman t 3 him—(A laugh).
CHORE!! EsTADLISIINIENT OF IRELAND.

Mr. 11U31E rose to make his promised motion. He
was wed aware that the subject of the Church establish-
ment of Ireland might be better managed by otiler
I lonourable Gentlemen than by himself. lie was quite
aware that in the opinions which lie had on a former
occasion explessl, respecting the Church, he could not
expect the whole House to coincide with him ; and that,
consequently, the motion for inquiry wi:h which he [im-
posed to conclude would come with more chance of
success from other hands, but having found an unwil-
lingia.lss on the part of other Honourable Members, bet-
ter ci,alified than himself to originate such a motion, he
telt obliged to bring the coestion forward, in doing
which he threw himself upon the indulgence of the
House, fearing that he should be compelled to draw
largely on its patience, but he pledged himself at the
same time to be as brief as the subject would permit
him. Ile Has quite satisfied that the situation of the
Church of Ireland had an effect on the state of that
country greater than any man could believe, who had
not, like him, looked at it with attention. He had spared
no pains to inform himself upon the subject, but he was
sorry to say, that after all his exertions and research, he
felt himself incompetent to lay before the House a full
or comprehensive statement or account of the want of
system, or any authentic collection of documents from
which the necessary information only could be obtained.
Iroin what lie had been able to collect, however, be
tiusted he should be able to make out such a case as
would entitle him to the support of the House. No
man who looked at the state of Ireland could say

that in alteration in the mode al -genreelung and
treating that bnhappq counts"' was onssrearary
There was no parallel in the Ifistory of Qiier ancient
or modern times for the picture which Irellind presents.
When the promises held out to the people of that
country, at the petiod of the Legislative Union (1801),
were considered ; and when it should be found that so
far from the condition of Ireland having been amelio-
rated within that period, that it had become worse in
every department of Government, whether as regarded
the Church, the law, or other departments, surely it
would not be denied that inquiry had become neces-
sary. In looking for the causes of those strange effects,
they would be found not to exist merely in one, two, or
three causes, but in many. An Honourable Friend of
his had, a few nights ago, introduced a subject con-
nected with the state of Ireland, in the discussion of
which he (Mr. Home) took no part ; for although he
agreed with that Honourable Friend in all he advanced,
yet he could not support-his motion, because the object
of it would, if attained, be only a palliative, which
would operate only in a particular district, and for only
a limited time. The object of his own—the present
motion—respecting as it did the Church Establishment
of Ireland, was, compared with that of his Honourable
Friend's, of tenfold importance; because, he would ask,
of what use would it be to throw capital into that
country, unless security could be held out that the
lender would reap the fruits He had in his possession
documents t.) prove that, within a very few years,
nearly twenty-seven millions sterling of British capital
had taken its course to every part of the world in
the shape of Loans, and he would say, that bad as'
the security' which Ireland could offer appeared, that'
an advance to her would be attended with less risk
than those to which he (NI.. Hume) had just referred.
But, he would ask, did not these facts prove that the
monied interests of Great Britain were willing to ad-
s ance their capital wherever there was a prospect of se-
curity? and there was no doubt that in treating with
Governments—those which were established on liberal
principles—offered better chances of returns to the
lenJets than• those founded on despotic principles, such
as Spain, Russia, Pr ussia, &c. yet the loans to which he
had alluded proved most strongly the opinion of the
stability and scent it) of Ireland which the monied inte-
rests entertained, and save to the Right Honourable
Gentleman opposite a lesson by which he (Mr. Hume)
trusted be would i.nofit, and which would convin,e him
that Ireland wa. not to be treated with palliatives. The
House had lately had quoted to it the opinion of Flet-
cher, of Saltorm, re,pectieg Scotland, in his day, and
also the mat ast which she at present exhibits to it,
which happy change the Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Nlabeily) ascribed solely to the introduction of wealth
and manufactures into that count: y ; but he (Mr. Humt)
was sure that w hen thy subject should be [hot (nighty
investigated, it would be found that the alteration was
principally due to the permission given to the people to
choose and establish their own religion, and to the en-1
couragement given to education. If satisfied that these
were the causes of that happy change, and that the state
of Ireland were looked to, by a parity of reasoning, it,
must be conceded, that the same causes would there'
produce 'similar effects. Were the Government to
act upon titat sugges;ion, he had no dcaht they would
st-ctue the loyalty ai,d insure the prosperity of behind.
Omit,' the advantages resulting from such a change he
tOr one moment put in comparison with the effects
arising out of the preent system ? Ile saw no reason
why the people of Ireland ought not to be supposed as!
capable of induyt y, of the enjoyment of peace and pt os-
pet ity, as those of Scotland, or any other country. It
was the natural dispo,ition of man to be quiet ; but the
histot y of nations proved that people had been ire.
quentiy driven to revolution. If the people of Ireland
were allowed the flee enjoyment of their own religion—
that they should not be called upon to support the
Clergy of any o:lter Church than theirsownthat they
were convinced chat there was a disposition on the part
of Give' nment to act fairly by them—tranquillity would
naturally follow.; and, as a consequence, English capital
and English manufactures would find their way act oss
the water. Irishmen in every other country than their
own exhibited as much talent, as much industry, and
proved theMselves as peaceable subjects as any other
people in.the wash Id. lithe experiment should be tried
only for one year of the effects that would result front
the measures to which he had alluded, he was convinced
that its success would be-sucla as so induce the British
monied interests to extend their capital to that country
in preference to Colombia and other foreign States. Ile
took leave to say, that he would be the last man in that
House to propose any measure which could by possibi.i y
be productive of danger. Look to the state of Austria
—of Pr ussia —of every country in which a difference
of religion existed, and it would be found that in some
of them the t eligion of the King and the Court differed
from that of three fourths of the people ; yet that that
difference did not produce disaffection to the Govern-
ment. It would be found in intolerant nations—and he
was sorry to say our own was one; in Spain forexample,
no man was eligible to office but a Catholic. The same
rule prevailed in Portugal—the same in Italy. Were
these the examples which we ought to follow? There
were two exceptions, Sweden and Denmark, where,
although the laws were exclusive, they were lie-
quently evaded. Having disposed of those countries
he came to England, here more than two-thirds
of the population were shut out from all Corpora-
tions, Universities, and emoluments, to which the
United States of America formed a striking and
noble contrast. The Honourable Gentleman here
referred to the case of an individual who had been ap-
pointed to a situation in the Excise in this country, but
who was incapacitated to enter upon its duties because
he was a Catholic. What had been the consequences
of the system pursued in Ireland ? Perpetual recurrence
to Insurrection Acts and to the suspension of the Habeas
Corpus. These were the fruits of the system. Would
any man therefore hesitate to give to the people their
rights, if by so doing he could secure the tranquillity of
the country ? He would ask whether the enactments
found necessary at the period, of the Reformation, and
he would admit that they were necessary, ought now to
be continued? We had arrived at a period when we
might with safety relieve ourselves from those shackles;
they are no longer necessary. The Honourable Gentle
man here entered into a review of the present state of
Ireland, a country in which no man could go to bed
without taking .precautions similar to those practised in
a town besieged ; contending thence, that so long as that
state of things should continue it- would be absurd to
expect that English capital would ever find its way
thither, and that that state would continue, unless there
was a change of system; and .that he was one who
would arm Government with the means necessary to
enforce such a change. .Why should any danger be
apprehended from extending to the people of Ireland

the toleration by whioh Z araria, Saxony, Resse, end
other Governments, were governed? The Honourable
Gentleman neat referred to the argument which was
founded upon the King's CorOatron Oath, conteed-
ing, however, that an Act of Parliament was capable
of altering that oath, and absolving the King from it.
He would ask the advocates of the Chuieh's inviolability,
what they understood bythe term the Church ? In ere
same way as they would not call the Officers the Army
so they ought not to consider the Clergy alone as flay
Church, but the Congregation together with the Clergy,
Why did the English change the Established Relive,
sometimes to Catholic, and again to Protestant, eta be,
cause it was the will of the reigning Prince, or that
Parliament consented to put down the one or build ter
the other ? Though in Ireland the Reformed Church bast
been selected as the National Church, yet it apleare,
that had King William lived to complete what he h,.;
projected, or the capitulation of Limerick taker. ulese
later, the Church Establishment in Ireland would L.„O
been similar to that of Scotland. Such being the ,el,
timents of King William at that day, he hoped teat/Le
present Ministers would entitle themselves to the e rat:.
tude of the country and rester e that people to 'qui.;
and peace, by putting into effect those liberal princi-
ples of mot als and religion which they are bound
in accordance with those professions on the subject ci
commerce and manufactures. Whenever that ceenee
should take place in the Established Church of
lic-
lend, he hoped it would be effected without force, and
through a spirit of kindness and benevolent erreese„....
In fact, Government must be responsible fur whatevtr
n ere the results of the present state of things in IRlan‘i.
They h.rd it too in their power to let Ireland, by p; u-
dent conduct, participate in our commerce, ar.d
capital which was now superabundant on cur shore;.
He took a rapid view of the increase of the Catheiz
religion in Ireland within the last fiaty years, which, :le
said, had on the average increased from four and six to
one, until it had reached twelve to one or ;fore. T.
attempt to keep up the present e;roi :nous St.:ff of the
Protestant Establishment in It eland, was to a:tempt :a
work against nature. It consisted, accur‘bng to the
Clerical (aide, of 1289 Benefices, four Archbishops,
eighteen Bishops, thirty-three Dean , tCB Deacons, 17,•;
P.ebends, 52 Vicars, 170 Rural De ins, making in ad
51'2. Here was a Staff for an A: my —(A /eu/;-.lo—ia
fact, there was a serjeant to every ten per sons, there
being not much above 50t,000 Pr( testaets in Iteearee
The Catholics consisted of six millerre and their t sta.
blishment was nothing like proportionaie. ir:quiev
into Church property was excessively d.aihttnl; but it
was enormously great, and if in priva.e based-, would
produce a rental of £2,500,000 a year. lit many of
these P.M benefices there were but two or three Pro-
testant families, and in some in the South of Ireland
not an individual. Now, the Catholic Church Esta-
blishment was the very reverse of the Protestant, and
its duties were most sedulously performed, whilst is
many instance's there was great inattention on the part
of the Established Clergy, and often total neglect cf
duty, or a dilapidation and ruin of the place of worship.
There were twenty-six Catholic benefices, which ex-
ceeded 3001. a year, none of which were above 70:':.
n year ; twenty-two of these were Bishops, who sedu-
lously performed the ordinary offices of Clergymen.
The total of the Parish Prie As and their a,sistants was
2,500, which would be considered moderate indeed when
contrasted with the 1,5t0 persons paid to take charge
of only .5(X),000 souls, whilst the Catholic Clergy in-
str fleece' six millions. Tiris was extraordinary, and con-
sidering the disparity of means of propagating the Ca-
tholic religion, there most be some peculiar reason ..‘lry
it increased as the other decreased. That reason was tt:
be found in Warburton, Paley, as %sell as in the avowal
on the part of King William—namely, that the State
ought, whenever there were different religions, t r :thy
itself with the largest. From what had happened, it was
hut fair to infer that it was absurd to think of convert-
ing the population of Ireland to Protestantism, if it were
only from the careless way in which the duties %sere
performed by the Established Clergy. It would, he be-
lieved, be boys just and politic for Government to re-
sume to the Crown the patronage now conferred on tire
Bishops, who had the nomination to 1,391 benefices,
whilst the Crown had but 293. Four Bishops were
enough to do all the ditty, and tleis reduction would re-
store to the Crown its just right. Three hundred and
sixty-seven benefices were in the hands of the Laity,
and twenty one in the University of Dublin. The re-
sident Clergy were 758, the non-resident 531, an alarm-
ing proportion indeed. Now all the Catholic Clergy
were of course resident. In the Diocese of Waterford
and Lismore there were only eighteen residents, and
thirty-two non-residents. With these facts, it was nut
extraordinary that Protestantism should be on the de-
cline. Many of those were pluralists. The proportion of
one Protestant to fourteen Catholics might increase to
one to sixty, and he would then ask any man of com-
mon sense, whether it was to be endured that we should
still continue an expense on the Established Church of
'2,500,0001. a year ? The weight and pressure of this
enormous Establishment was the reason why, whenever
there was a disposition to insubordination shewn in any
part of Ireland, that it spread and assumed the form of
rebellion; for every Catholic thought; and so should
he (Mr. Hume) if a Catholic, that every shilling of
tithe taken out of their pockets was a positive robbery
—(A laugh, and Hear, hear).—He feared he should
. be as violent as any of them in resisting this claim.—
The Church of England could never flourish until such
time as pluralities were done away with. The people
would not complain of remunerating services properly
performed, nor would sufficient funds for that purpose
be wanting ; but they very naturally complained, that
men with large incomes were totally exempt from the
performance of any duty. There were numbers of el-
cuses for non-residence, an appointment for instance to
the situation of Chaplain to Peers or Peeresses, and in
many instances of this kind the Peer or Peeress never
even saw the person so nominated. There were no
benefices, however small, which fit persons would not
be found willing to accept of. He was informed; by a
Gentleman well acquainted with the subject, that there
was not a benefice even of la which would not be
readily accepted of by men able and willing to perform
the duties. But how stood the case in Ireland ? Ac
cording to an ecclesiastical register, and a printed volume
he then held in his hand, there were instances of so maq
ecclesiastical offices, and so many parishes vested !,
one person, that it was utterly impossible he cored
perform the duties. Robert Alexander was Area.
deacoa of Derry, and held a union besides of four
parish:3. Here the Honourable Member quoted the
~
worth of Lord Dartmouth, from the fifth
of Burnees History, in condemnation of eeaneries add
prebendaries, and the general wealth of the Chinch!
Thera weir three individuals who died Primates 0!
Ireland leaving behind them not less 64,1 800,0•:91,

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Could a syltem like ibis be permitted to go on *hen
each distress existed in the country ? Could anything
be more insulting to common sense than the general
stipendiary payment of the Clergy, amounting to no
more than 701. or 801. a-year, while the incumbent re-
ceived from 6001. to 7001. or 8001.? 'This individual,
Mr. Alexander, had also a union of two parishes in the
diocese of Ossory. Richard Allen, in the diocese of
Repeoe, had a union of six parishes, eighteen miles in
circumference, and the curate received only from 701.
to 751. a-year. (The Honourable Member referred to
tee cases of the Rev. John Bailey, Gilbert Austin, Mr.
French, and others, as persons holding a plurality of em-
ployments). It was impossible that any Church could
prosper under such circumstances. He must charge the
Bishops with a neglect of duty, in not enforcing the
bedding of glebe-houses as the Act required. There
were twenty or thirty instances of incumbents who bad
'resided from ten to twelve years without building any
house. This alone was sufficient ground for instituting
some inquiry. Why did the Bishops not do their duty ?
He had been informed, and he believed the information
was correct, that, since the Bill enforcing the residence
of the Clergy passed, one Bishop had conferred two be-
nefices on persons who could not possibly reside in their
parishes. A curious circumstance had lately occurred,
which, in his view of it, proved that the Government
was greatly to blame. It was well known that there were
such things as First Fruits. They were made over by the
Crowd to the Church, for the purpose of equalising ec-
clesiastical livings. He wished to call the attention of
the House to the practice in Ireland upon this subject.
It was twice if not deice as rich as the Church of Eng-
lind. There was this difference between the two, thou
the tenths were reserved, but not exacted in Ireland. lir
eigland they were regularly paid. The gravamen of
his charge against the 'Government was this. In Eng-
land the first fruits were so valued as not to:be re-valued
at any future period. In Iceland, however, it was so
fixed that they were to be re-valued from time to time.
In England the first fruits of the Archbishops were va-
lued at '21,331/. In Ireland the valuation was 10511. for
tee ,Archbishops—(llear)—and that from the other Sees
e 1251. though of one alone of them he would undertake
to make 50,000/. a-year. Could anything be more semi-
serious th in this? It was thus that the people of Eng-
land and Ireland had been called upon to pay millions
trom time to time for the improvement of small livings,
when, it justice were done, nothing of the kind would
be necessary. In Ireland all that. had been paid for seven
years WAS 90114 not one-sixteenth of the amount paid
in Eigland. A patent had been granted to two indivi-
duals, Mr. Shaw M4lOll and Mr. Glasscock to collect
the first fruits. The whole amount paid by the higher
order of beneficed Clergy for the last seven years was
re/. For four of these years not 10/. had been paid,
though in that time a number of promotions took place.
He was astonished how the Secretary fur Ireland could
shut his eyes to this.—(hero the Honourable Member
read the Act relative to the payment of First Fruits.)—
?'he Act respired the payment of the clear yearly va-
Ine, meaning, as it appeared to him, the improved value.
Mr. Mason called on the Bishops and Archbishops to
pay the value, as ascertained from time to time, and
the Governmeat of Ireland upon that interfered. The
.Attorney-General gave it as his opinion, that all bene-
fsee were to be re-vale sel, except such as were ex-
empt by Act of Parliament. The Secretary for Ireland
coesteptence wrote to Mr. Mason, informing him that
If he continued to refuse the First Fruits as charged in
the feral-di of the Court of Exchequer, he would
he deprived of his patent. Mr. Mason was supported
by the opinion of Mr. Allen, a barrister, in the course he
had adopted, and as there existed a difference of opi-
nion on the subject, one would have thought the best
tour se to be pursued was that most favourable to the
poor Clergy. When they found such men as those now
s: the head of the Itish Government pursuing this line
se conduct, it became a grave subject for inquiry. It
s'iewed the difficulty of getting rid of those abuses
'which so long existed in that unfortunate country. Why
would Mr. Mason, or any other man, be placed in a
situation to execute a duty, without the power of doing
so? Tee papers detailing all these facts were laid upon
the table in April, 1823. They were well worthy of
perusal, and formed a good specimen of the manner in.
which business was conducted in Ireland. Mr. Mason
had done himself great credit by his conduct in the
business, and he should like to see many other servants
of the Government perform their duty so well.—
fie would now proceed to another part of this subject.
He hrld in his hand a book printed in Oxford, in 160 E.
seccordmg to a passage in this, which he should read by
and !Ile, so far were tithes from being granted to the
Clergy for ever, that by the express declaration of
Hem y the Eighth, they were to be considered as trans-
firma to the Crown, to be disposed of as it should think
6t any future period. The result of his cdnduct
'hewed that he had the tight. lie gave to many indi-
videels grants out of that property, which had since re-
mained in the undisturbed possession of their descend-
ants: he gave to those individuals what he thought pro-
per, and in like manlier to the new Clergy of the Re-
formed Church, he gave such portions of that property
as he thought fit. The declaration of 1539, re-pub-
lished at Oxford in 108, which lie (Mr. Hume) was
about to read, considered the right of the Crown to in-
terfere
in regard to tithes as he did, for it contained
these words :—" And also that all the said tithes be con-
traued as they %sere until it shall please the King to alter
or alienate any of them." The result of the inquiry fur
which he was contendi rg, might be a recommendation
from the Commission or Committee by whom it was
conducted, to reduce the number of Bishoprics by unit-
ing two or more in one, as had been recommended in
the case of the Diocesan Schools. In that case whet an
advantage would be gained in the opportunity afforded
of reducing the tithes in those districts. The Honourable
Member then proceeded, for the information of many
Meneuer s who had not been present at the early part of
his speech, to recapitulate some of the statements which
!:ad before made. But, he said, this was not a mere
matter of calculation re. the pounds, shillings, and pence,
which might be saved, though even in that point of view
was an important subject fur consideration, but it was
a qecstion revolving considerations of the most serious
interest, dceely affecting the condition of the people of
Irelaed, and eaten acing the great principle of the tolera-
tion and relief which ought to be given to the Catholic
enpeletian re' that count' y. He had shewn strong
grstinds for inquit y ; and he thought it impossible for
any nern,how ever much he might despise the considera-
tion of que,zious of peunds, shillings, and pence, to dis-
reeard the eicture which he had drawn of the state of
!reland. With rel:ea to the particular mode in which
sr might be preferable that such an inquiry should be
pursued, th-ugh his own opinion was quite made up,
" should not Riess it, but leave that point entirely for
Hesse to decide. He concluded by moving-

a Tbat it is expedient to inquire whether the present
Church Establishment of Ireland is not more than com-

mensurate with the services which it performs, both in
regard to the number of persons employed, and to the
income which they receive."
Mr. STANLEY rose to oppose k. The Honourable'
Member began by expressing his regret at being
obliged to oppose the motion. His regret was increased
by the very temperate nature of the motion, and the
manner in which it was made. Agreeing, as he did, in
many points with the Honourable Mover, and not hav-
ing any objection that the Church should be before the
House in its moral, political, and pecuniary relations,
he could no; think that the mode proposed by the Ho-
nourable Member could be pursued with advantage or
without danger. The time cho-en for this was most
unfortunate, and he thought the motion itself calcu-
lated to lower the character of the Established Church.
Prejudice to the Church Establishment in Ireland he
had none, and in disposition to relieve Ireland he would
yield to no man. It was but too well known that within
the last few years, attempts had been made by the
press, and through the more dangerous channels of,
private insinuation, to cast odium on the Established
Church, by maliciously aspersing the character of its
Clergy. lie would assert, that had one half the zealr
which had been exerted against the Church been used
to bring forth the high chat acter, the many virtues, and
amiable qualities, the unostentatious discharge of their
sacred duties, of the great body of its tnembets, that
Church would now stand above the reach of all that
malice and calumny could invent ; but this was not done.
On the contrary, the vices of some individuals, and the
failings of others, were put forth in a most prominent
manner ; and, being contrasted with the unassuming vir- I
tnesof that body, served to shewthe contrast more clearly.,
The I lonourable Member then pi oceeded to contend, :
that in a matter of such vital importance to the nation,
the utmost care and caution should be used, lest by an
indiscreet zeal for doing good we might inflict an irre-
parable injury. He would not assert that there might
not be circumstances which would justify an interference
with the property of the Church, but he would main-
tain that no such circumstances could exist:which would
not equally justify an interference with landed, funded,
and commercial propetty—(llear, hear). Such circum-
stances did not exist now, nor was there any probability
of their existence at any future period. He then pro-
ceeded to contend, that as a measure of finance the in-
quiry would be unjust and unnecessary, and that as
.a
measure of conciliation, it would be worse than useless.
lhe motion either went too far, or not far enough. The
Established Church of Ireland should be supported, or
given up altogether. He could not consider this motion
as any approach to a system of conciliation : it was, on
the contra' y, rather to hold up to the Roman Catholics of
Ireland, the Protestant Church as one to wet ing above their
heads " in pride of place," and enormous influence of
wealth, or one which in turns excited their indignation and
envy. He complained in the strongest terms of the exagge-
ration which prevailed, and was circulated under anony-
mous insinuation, respecting the Church property of lie-
land, and the efforts which, under the specious pretexts
of correcting ecclesiastical abuses, were directed against
the existence of the establishment itself. lie conjured the
House to shew itself the protector of the Church of Ire-
land, and prevent the triumph which would follow from
the adoption of a motion like this. The Hon. Gentleman
then quoted several passages from pamphlets circulated
in Ireland, to shew the violent temper which prevailed
among certain Catholic 'ladies respecting the lista-
bli lied Church, and also extracts from the Bishop of
Limerick's charge to his Clergy—a Prelate distinguished
by the highest worth—to slum, the different temper with
which these charges were met. lle then argued at
some length that the peasant of Ireland, whose condi-
tion was truly unfortunate, could derive no benefit from
a reduction of Church property, as it was obvious that
the landlord woulsizetain the amount of whatever di-
minution of tithe could be effected. This must be the
case even where the consumer paid the tithe, for the poor
peasant could not be well said to stand in anything
like the situation of a consumer. He was most anxious
to see the condition of that peasant raised and improved,
and imbued with a moral sense of what ought to be
inculcated into his situation of life ; but this motion
had no tendency to relieve or improve the Irish
peasant. Ireland laboured under four principal wants
—the want •of a resident gentry, the want of capital, the
want of employment, and of adequate education. Not
one of these wants could be relieved by the proposed
inquiry—(Hear.)—It was, he thought, clear that the
residence of the Clergy, the value of which he enforced,
supplied in some degree the place of the absent gentry;
and would not that be diminished by the operation of
such a motion as the present ? He then reverted to the
mischievous exaggerations: contained in certain pam-
phlets which were circulated in Ireland ; one of which
stated, . that according to Parliamentary returns, there
were in Ireland 1,309 Benefices, which averaged SOU
a-year—a statement which he declared was totally un-
founded, and the estimate most unfairly and untruly
formed from an average taken from one of the richest
dioceses (Cloyne), and when the maximum was very
high. In reviewing some of the statements of the value
of Church property made by the Honourable Mover, he
saw, that instead of its amounting, according to one com-
putation, to 1.041,200/. a-year, it did not exceed, in
that part of the Church revenue, more than 327,5001.
In describing the real value of Church property in Ire-
land, the amount of fines and Bishops' leases, he said he
was authorised by a Prelate who had the best infolma-
tion on the subject, to declare that the value of the
Bishoprics was greatly overrated by the Public, and
that, in point of fact, of eighteen Bishoprics, eleven
were under 5000/. a-year ; four of the remaining seven
under 60001. a-year, one under 7000/. a-year, and the
remaining two not stated. It had also been said, that
the Archbishop of Dublin had 144 rich livings in his
gift, which averaged 8004 a-year each, and that the
Bishop of Kildare had 131 such livings. Now the fact
was, that the Archbishop had only the patronage of 20
benefices, eleven of which were of very inferior value.
He pointed out errors of a similar nature, which he had
eve• y reason to believe characterised the Honourable
Mover's statement respecting the Deaneries, Aeclideacon-
ries, and Rural Deaneries, and was also astonished to find
how the Honourable Member had undervalued the in-
comes of the Catholic Clergy, many of the Parish Priests
of which enjoyed 2001. 3001. and 400/. a year, and some,
considerably more; indeed, there were instances where',
Protestants made them valuable offerings to propitiate
their good opinion among the Catholic population. He
had heard that such was the fact. He admitted that
Ireland had suffered from that species of corruption in
her institutions, which was in a degree more or less in.
separable from human frailty ; and he knew that the
Prelates of the Established Church were anxious to have
a fair and full inquiry made into the nature of their si's-

tem but, however desirable it might be to issue a Com-
mission for such a purpose, he could never give his sup-
port to that species of inquiry which prejud4ed institu-
tions before they were investigated, and which at once
stamped with injustice an Establishment, on the faith of
exagtetatid and unfounded mistatement, before a syl-
lable of evidence was offered to substantiate such severe
allegations—( Low? cries of Hear).
Mr. DAWSON addresed the House, but in the midst
of so much confusion that his observations seldom
reached the gallery. After complimenting and thank-
ing the last speaker, he contended that the attack of the
Honourable Member for Aberdeen was unjust, and that
it was the duty of the House to discountenance it. He
would not attempt to deny that many abuses existed in
the Church, and he had the strongest desire to see
them remedied. He was of opinion that right I
the
.1
which the tithes were held by the Clergy incon-
trovertible, and that its violation would destroy the se-
curity of every other kind of property. He was inclined
to think the Honourable Member for Aberdeedwas not
correct in his estimate of the number of Non-resident
Clergy and Ab-entees. The Clergy of Ireland were, in
his opinion, must respectable. In the north of Ireland
the service of the Church was per formed with the greatest'
solemnity and regularity.
Mr. DOMINICK BROWNE, could not withhold his
tribute of praise to the Established Clergy of It-eland,
but he was compelled to say, nothing, in his opinion, but
a more equal division of Church property would secure
the peace of Ireland. The population of Ireland was
seven millions ; of that number five millions and three
quarters were Catholics. The members cf the Estab-
lished Church were 500,000, and the rest Dissenters.
The Established Clergy possessed one-fifth, or one-
fourth of the property of the whole island. The prin-
ciples introduced at the Reformation had been accepted
by the majority of people in England. In Ireland the
Reformation was rejected, and, if the people of that
country had constantly rejected it, it was impossible to
say the Established Clergy had a right to the Church
property. Toe Roman Catholic Clergy were the legal
Clergy. He should vote for the motion, conceiving in-
quiry into the subject highly necessary.
Mr. ROBERTSON said, the hope of restoring peace
to Ireland depended on the union of the Roman Catho-
lic and Protestant Churches. He thought there was a
probability of effecting that object. There was not
much difference in ihe creed of both Churches. The
Lutheran and Calvinist Churches were formerly op-
posed to each other, yet the Governmeut of Prussia ac-
complished an union of both these Churches. A Bishop
of Durham had expressed his belief that die union of
the Protestant and Roman Churches might be brought
about. The Honourable Member was convinced, that
until such a union was effected, nothing could be ex-
pected from Ireland.
Mr. GRATTA N was desirous of stating shortly a few
observations. If the residence of the Clergy could be
procured it would be most desirable. With respect
to education in Ireland, be thought there had been
some remissness in the application of the funds advanced
for that purpose. Upon the view he took of the ques-
tion, he should vote for the motion of his Honourable
Pr iend,. not from any hostility to the Established Chinch,
but from an anxious desire to serve the people of Ireland.
Mr. PLUNKETT said it was not his intention to
trespass at any length, and he was sure the House would
excuse him. Having been alluded to by the Honourable
Member with whom the motion originated, it was quite
impossible he could suffer the House to adjourn with-
out saylbg a few words. Rising for that purpose, he
considered it his duty also, to make some observations
on the general question. He did so more especially
for the purpo.e of rescuing a cause to which he felt
great attachment, namely, the Catholic question, from
the danger in which it had that night stood. He re-
gretted it had been introduced into the argument of the
Honourable Member for Aberdeen, because the use
made of it must be injurious. Every person must
see the Roman Catholic question had been improperly
introduced. When the Honourable Member joined the
Catholic question to his plan of taking away the pro-
perty of the Irish Hierarchy, he should protest against
his advocacy. In supporting the Roman Catholic ques-
tion he should always do it with strict regard for the
vested rights of all classes. No infringement of the
rights of the Established Church should ever make part
of his argument in suppor t of that question. He entreated
the House not to suffer the Catholic body to be im-
plicated in any opinion subversive of public right. He
did not know there was a great deal to complain of in
the wording of the Honourable Member's motion-
-( Hear, hear, hear); but he should judge of the mo-
tion by the arguments which supported it. Looking to
the opinions expressed with respect to Church propel ty,
he could not say, as a friend to the Catholic question,
that it was safe in such company. He would never
consent to embark with the Honourable Member under
sealed orders. lie had no desire to quit terra firma
and sound argument. 11 Take notice, Mr. Speaker and
the House," said the Right Honourable Gentleman,
,g of the nostrum held up for the cure of the evils of
unfortunate Ireland. The Honourable Member says
we are to throw aside the principles of our own coun-
try, and take for model those of a Republic—those of
America." lle did not wish, in one part of his argu.
merit, to abide entirely by the American model. The
Honourable Member did not wi.h to give the property'
of the Hierarchy to the State, but to the Roman Catho;
lies. He was quite at a loss to know how the Honour-
able Member could carry his intention into effect: The
State would not be justified in meddling with the pro..
perty of the Church, unless in case of exigency, when
all property might
.be liable.
In common cases the
Crown could not interfere with it more than with
private property. He could not avoid congratulating
the House and the Public on the display of talent shewu
by an Honourable young Member under tl.e gallery.
—He might freely compliment the noble stock from
which the Hon. Member came, on having so much ta-
lent ready to be called forth for the benefit of the
country. The speech of the Hon. Member had placed
the question in a proper point of view. He might ask
whit'"' i
was to be the consequence t the motion were car-
ried? Tithes were to be abolishel For the purpose of
the Hon. Member's argument, it was a 'natter of indif-
ference which portion of property was taken by the
.landlord, and the proposition was to take away the pro-
perty of the Clergy to give it to the landed Gentlemen.
'faking away property tics: one to give it to another
could not bear a better harm than that of spoliation,
and when once that system began, let the owners of other
property take care. Let the FuadhGL!er be upon his
guard. Spoliation justified in one case, would be a
precedent for spoliation in another. The Hon. Member
had reverted to the number of Non-resident Clergy, and
the number was stated to be 531. 16 Now, Mr. Speaker
(observed Mr. Plurskett) I sLa!l hardly ban: when

I say if you strike off SOO from that number, the SI
will be a considerable exaggeration. The fact is, the
Hon. Member has been painfully laborious in making
himself inaccurate on the subject." He had been in-
formed there were not twenty beneficed Cergymen
non-resident. If they mere wandering ab,n, as the
Hon. Member described, why were they not seen ? 11,
no part of Ireland had he witnessed the absence com-
plained of. The Right Hon. Gentleman begged leave
to ask whether it was fair to tail upon him to explain
an opinion given in 18'22? He should, however, state
to the House the circumstances which led to his opinion
that the First Fruits were vestej in the Crown. The
Acts passed in the reigns of I VIII. mid E:izabeth,
he contended, gave the Crown the amount of first
fruits, as they appeared in the King's books. During
‘2CO ye:it s the first fruits were collected actor ding to the
rate in the King's books. A Gentleman who collected
said he would controul the Clergy, and take the value
without the King's books. Tile !Light Hon. Gentleman
decided that the individual had no right to change the
practice of 200 years.—Szcoirdly, he held, that .1 any
change was to be ma Ic, the individual had uo autho-
rity to make it. With respect to the Protestant Esta-
blishment of the country, he considered it nece-sary for
the preservation and toleration of a:1 other religions.--
The heads of that establishment ought to rank with
Nobles of the land. The Ministers should also be most
respectable; but speaking in a political sense, he thought
the existence of the Protestant Establi,liment was the
bond of security to both countries. The moment they
robbed it of its rights, the doom of separation of the
two countries would he sealed.

Sir JOHN BR YDGES rose and said—“ Deprecating
as I do the constant practice of dragging the Church
Establishment before the Public, in order to degrade it,
I congratulate those Honeur.ible Members who are
friendly to it on the total failure of the Hon. Nlember
for Aberdeen, and the triumphant answer of the Hon.
Member who succeeded him in the debate; and here
am contented the question shall rest. Hut I feel I have
a right to answer an unfounded assertion of the Hon.
Member for Aberdeen. He has stated that my Hon. Re-
lation the Archbishop of Armagh, has augmented the
profizs of his See since his appointment to it. I will
tell this Honourable Member he has been imposed upon,
and I care not from what source he has derived his in-
formation—but I say, it is equally false as malicious. If
there is one Hon. Prelate who discharges his duty beyond
another,!l would say this was the Archbishnp Armagh:
charitable, pious—able, strictly, and conscientiously
fulfilling every duty of his station. He may be justly
held up as a bright example to be followed. Perhaps
the HonouraLle Member may say I am a prejudiced
advocate; if so, I refer him to the Gentry. Cleo gy, and
poor of the dioceses of Itaphoe, Croghei, a id Dublin, in
each of which he was received as .1 ble.sing, and parted
from with the greatest regret. S much for the Hon.
Member's accuracy of information. I ill not detain
the House longer, but only add, as a firm friend to
the Church, I shall give my oppoiition to this measure,
in which, I trust, I shall be joined by such a majority
as will set this question at rest for ever."

Sir F. Bum)Err felt he should not discharge his
duty were he to abstain from an endeavour to oppose
the arguments against the motion. With regard to
Ireland, one opinion seemed to be universally enter-
tained, namely, that the people of that country were
exposed to evils of great magnitude. He was aware
that the consideration of those evils involved feelings of
importance, and he felt so much embarrassed that he
scarcely knew how to separate the question before the
House from the question of general grievances. When-
ever the question was brought on they were sure to
meet with repulse. If they brought forward the state
of the country, it was such a mass of difficulty that
they could not grapple with it; it, on the other hand,
a specific grievance was brought under consideration,
they were told it was no grievance at all. The Right
Hon. Gentleman had excited his astonishment by making
the assertion that the present state of the Church in Ire-
land was not considered a grievance in Ireland. lie
held that declaration to afford a melancholy prospect
for the people of Ireland, who had looked to the Right
Hon. Gentleman with confidence as the supporter of
their tights. It held out to the Catholic population a
melancholy prospect, and very little hope of relief. He
could state his views with respect to Ireland, but they
would be considered visionary. lie would, however,
say, that unless they got out of the hacknied routine of
measures, Ireland would sink. under accumulated disa
tress. Something must be done. The wotiads of that
buffering couatry must be probed. The Hon. Baronet
allowed that great praise was due to a young Member
unties- the gallery, who bad spoken well ; but he could
not admit that any argument could fairly be urged in
support of the conduct of Ministers. Until the Right
Hon. and Learned Gentleman got up it was thought
that the speech of the Hon. Member to whom he had
alluded was an answer to the argument of his Hon.
Friend. He did not, however, join in that view. It
was said his Hon. Friend was inaccurate. If so the re-
turns laid on the table were inaccu; ate ; but what was
the language of the Right lion. Gentleman on the sub-
ject of property? He was not disposed to look at the
property of the Church as he would private property.
They all knew it was given to the Church for pious
uses, and his hope was, that Gentlemen in that House
would have the manliness and sense to hold in utter
contempt such an application. It was given to the
Clergy to be beneficial to that body, and he would go
the length of saying of the Church establishment it was
injurious to the Public. With respect to its possessions
the Parliament could take it away. The Protestant as-
cendancy had been one of the greatest scourges of Ire-
land. When it was shewn that ascendancy never would
allow the people of Ireland to have equal rights, was it
not time to alter the system? The Catholics had perse-
vered so long in not gibing up their faith, that they bad
proved themselves worthy to possess all the advantages
hich they demanded. It had been said loans c auld
not be advanced to Ireland because the people were net
in a con6:ion to enjoy good things. heard a
story, " An Irishman was working on the high road,
and a Gentleman knowing the man had some time
before teceived a legacy, said, That, Vat, are you
working? Yes, your honour. Why you had a legacy?
Ves, Lu: it is ad gone. I wanted to see how a Gentle-
man of La o hundred a rear lived." The fact was. the
people of eland had a taste to elloy the good things
admired in England,- hut ti-.ey w:uited money. So great
was the misery of Ireland, and so connected was that
country with England, that the misery of the founer
threatened :o reach, if net to oyerwhelm, the latter. He
had no doubt that much of our own distress was car
by the influx of the poorer Irish, though he, of cot
did not blame them. He did not w;.-11 to undue,
the benefit which would be detiaed from Catholic
cipatior.. He tholght, on. the contra7y, that this w,