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London, England, 1831-07-19 00:00:00

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as that •.f ,iihe to produce ill-blood between a nation and its I
religious ilsiructors. Then came the difficulty of providing
for the church so as to insure to its ministers that they should
eever fall below the level, but always keep at least an even
race with the other classes of society. He did not think the
ersteni of tithe well contrived for the purpose it had in view.
Ile did ~i.t think the collection of tithe a good mode of se-
rutin/ :0 the Clergy the respect and attachment of the so-
elegy th y wve •tt instruct; but this he knew, that tithes
w• such A 1.1 p ion of provision for the Church, that
there (void he tor inttesse of the wealth of the parish without
Li least onto:pulling increase of that of the Church.—
Tie Chu. eh anti the landlord were partners: one-tenth of
the prollt,ee of the land was the property of the former,
je.st as math as ,he remaining nine-tenths were the property
of the latter. If it was thought hard by the landlords that
the Clergy should step in and take away one-tenth, it was
pe7lertly competent for the Clergy to say, " Our tenth
..s *nue% our property its your nine-tenths are yours "
It was nue that the Clergy were sleeping partners so far
agricoliti-al labour was concerned. But they had other
Motes to p-rform to society. for which their property in the
;:i teas the legal stioulated recompence. It would be a
gr...t step to take, a mighty infringement of property to say,
toot title partner shall oust the other without his consent.
Su? se he (the Lord Chancellor) was partner in a firm,
his copartners should determine to make a rest and value
the property, and, assigning hint his share, say a thousand
Pounds. snfiutle him from all participation in the futute
profits. it was true his thousand pounds would be secured,
but, while the property of his partners went on lOCTOI4-
log, his would remain where it was. This was the kind
of justice which the bill of the Noble Baron appeared
to him to render to the clergy, and this was certainly
the main of his objection. It was true that
the sum to be allotted to the clergy in lieu of tithe was to
vary at intervals of three years, according' to the price of
wheat ; it was to go up or down, as wheat became dearer or
cheaper, and the clergy would thus be protected from injury
arising out ot the fluctuations in the value of money. This
mitigated the evil. but it did not r,:move it. It WAS an ad.
justment e the arrange pent as regarded the value of money,
but no alleviation of the original injustice, for the clergy
ought to receive no: only according to the fluctuations in the
value of money, but according to the progress of cultivation.
To return to his former illustration,it would be no satisfactory
compensation to him that his 10001. should be changed into a
greateror a smaller sum in proportion tothe changes in thevalue
of money, while he saw himself condemned to remain poor,
at the same time that his former partners, who had unjustly
excluded him from their fellowship. were gradually growing
richer and richer. He thought that some arrangement should
be made which would exclude the possibility of quarrelling
between the lay brethren anti the clergyman ; that the clergy-
n.an should receive an income ungrudged by the parties
bound to give it. The clergy and the landowners should go
hand in hand. A clergyman ought to be able to say, " You
have nine.tenths, we have one-tenth, and the right to either
is the same." He perfectly agreed with the plans proposed
in this Rill. Asa friend to his country, as a friend to the
Established Church, he hoped that some arrangements might
lie arrived at to come between the lay and the ecclesiasti-
cal interests. He deplored his inability to see the right
way to accomplish that arrangement ; but whatever it might
he, it ought to be an arrangement which fully provided for
the safety of the Established Church, and such arrange-
ment could not he arrived at without mutual consultations
between the Laity and the Clergy. All parties, however,
should abide by the strict letter of the compact. He
did not see why remit:thing could not be done in England in
assimilation to the plan of the Episcopal Church of Scot-
land. If that plan worked well in Scotland, why not else.
where ? In Sc. died there were none but stipendiary Clergy.
When clergy men were stipendiary nothing was easier than the
cnilect inn of w was due to them. They got their stipend
j :et as securely as any other property they might he entitled to.
elm as owners of tithes clergymen might lose greatly. It
was a p Ipetual commutation of grain ; there was a perpetual
rising or falling in the price of grain, and an owner of
tt,ites: was quite as much an owner of land. Whatever
cioiclusiin might be conic to on ibis important question, he
h le_el that it would be discussed with ettlenness ; that one
piny would ace stand in the way of the other in their mutual
endeavour; to put an end to the differences existing at present
L:vetch the clergy and their lay brethren. He would not de-
tain their Lordships further on this subject, but he felt that
he would not have been discharging his duty bad he not said
thus much on a subject which claimed his best consideration.'
Lord ELI/ON said that an aucuipt to alter the nature of
,perty in tithes was as much as an attempt to alter the
securities for lay property. He considered them one and the
same thing with respect to the right of tenure. lie would
vine fur the second. reeding ; but at the same time he
thought, when he looked at both bills on the subject of
• tithes before the house, it was utterly impossible to say
they could both go through the Committee. There were
many clauses In the bill of the Must Rev. Prelate which he
e'ojected to, but they were of a nature to be corrected in the
committee, and lie therefore trusted to be able to give his
b.st ceneia. ration amd attention when those clauses would be

brought under discussion, and would reserve the expression of
l.:s opinions of th ust, clauses till thin. A deal had been said
ott the subject of tam*: and much had also been said on the
suhject of tithes of lay impropriators. Both should be looked
on equally as property in this country. lie wished that an
alteration might be made in both so far as regarded the col-
lecticti of the proceeds of that property. He had rend the
bill with great attention, and be must lay that if the bill

went to the cointniitee in its present shape, it could not pass.
There were several clauses required to be greatly shoed. lie
belh,ved that the tithe law was less understood than any
otti;r. Material alterations would be required to be made
before the passing of the bill; but when he looked at the
gt.pit interest the Established Church had in the right ad.
justuieht of this question, he would devote his best services
to assist their lordships in their endeavours to promote that
in erest.

The Bishop of LONDON thought that his right rev.
legend had auopted the only comic which could be adopted
tar the adjustment of the 'tithe system. No man would
deny that the clergy had as equitable • right to their claims
to tithes as the lay-impropriators had to theirs. The rights
both were placed upon the same basis, and it formed
part of the tenure of land in this country, that the clergy
should be entitled to a certain interest in it. If any other
arrangement were made for the maintainance of the church
est,i,:slinient, on whom would the burden fall but upon
thom• briar now pay tithes? These were the persons who
would have to pay the Easter offerings and other fees, which
would then bast: to be paid in lieu of the mode of pay.
ibei.t a hich had tOr so long a period existed. The rights
f the ent.re it ought to be maintained, and it was not fair of
the noble and leaned lord on the %whack to describe the
0: the cleTy. as those of a sleeping partner. He (the
Bishop' of Loi.dou) thought that it would be advisable to
introduce into tire measure a power for commuting tithes
for lard. This was dune under particular circumstances at
ram I.t, and he could consequently perceive no possible
9.1 j.et.ou to the introduction of a clause to that effect.
Tithes had, in his judgment, raised the clergymen of the
lurch of England to their present eminence in piety and
Laming, and he, for one, would be sorry to sec any
attempt made to abolish them. For his own part, he
shrubd be exceedingly happy ta see some plan for ascertain-
ing what was, and what was trot thheable, at d preventing the
cot:flicting decisions which were tobe found upon the subject.
The LORD CHANCELLOR and the Bishop of LON-
DON mutually explained; and, after a few words from the
Arcirbt.hop of C A NTERBURY, t!te bill was read a second
tinte, aid ordered to be committed on lihursday.
TIIINCE LEMM:iII INCOME.

Earl GB ET alluded to a question which had been put to
Lim on a former evenirg, with respect to the income of
Prince Leopold. flat income, the noble lord observed,
a as settled upon I is Royal Highness by the usual means,
et.ll his Rojal Highness had as much right to it as any of
their It ra.liti.s had to hie it .come derived to him by marri-
age. When the question alludtd to v as put, he (Earl Grey)
h:4l in his possession a Inter from Prince Leopold on the
sunject ; but atoning that lettsr a private communication,
lie did not wish then to disclose it ; but he was now at li-
lorty to State, that it a as not the intention of his Royal
Nigbras to drew one farthi g of his income from this
ceuntry. The noble lord then read the following letter:
Marlborough-house, July 15.
" My di ar Lord Grey: Befoie I quit the country, I
ant desirous to state, in waiting, the intentions and views
which I had the pl..sure of communicating to you verbally
this morning, on the subject of my British annuity.
" As Sovereign of Belgium, it is not my intention to draw
from this country any portion of the income which was
settled upon me by Act of Parliament at the period of my
marriage. Your Lordship is, however, well aware, that
up to the very moment of my leaving England I have main-
tained my establishments here upon their accustomed foot-
ing, and that, consequently, there remain to be fulfilled and
discharged pecuniary engagements and outstanding debts,

to an amount which it is quite impossible for me to state at
the present time with mecision. As soon, therefore, as I
shall have accomplished the payment of these demands, it
is my Intention to make over, into the hands of trustees*
whom I will without loss of time appoint, the whole of the
annuity which I receive from this country, in trust for the

following purposes :
" I shall - -olre • tru.tess

maintain, in a state of

_ requi my ,to
complete habitation and of repair, the house, gardens, and
park, at Claremont ; and farther, to pay all the salaries,
pensions, and allowances, which I shall deem a proper re-
ward to those persons who have claims upon me for their
faithful services during my residence in this country. I
shall, in addition, require them to continue all those cha-
rities and annual donations to charitable institutions, which
have been allowed or subscribed to, either by the Princess
Charlotte or by myself, up to the present period,
" All these objects having been fulfilled, it is my wish and
desire that the remainder shall be repaid into the Btitie►
Exchequer. I remain, my dear, Lord Grey, most faith.
fully your's, (Signed) " LZOPOLD."
The noble Lord added, that it was also the intention of
Isis Royal Highness to resign the commission which he held
us Colonel of the sth Dragoon Guards, and that he would
have serrendered his e rnmission into the hands of Lord
Iltil prior to his quitting this country, bad not some unex-
pected circumstance interfered. The noble Lord concluded
by reading a letter which he bad received from Colonel Cust
upon the subject of his Royal Highness's intention, and
which was to the alert effect.

The Duke of IVELLINOTON congratulated the house
upon the determination to which his Royal Highness had
come. His Royal Highness held his income by the same
right whick any of their Lordships held his, namely. by the
laws of the country ; but still he (the Duke of Wellington)
notwithstanding the misconstruction which the press had put
upon what had fallen from him, sincerely rejoiced that bin
Royal Highness had come to a right conclusion and deter.
mined to show the people over which he was about to rule,
that he would be independent of this country.
• Here the conversation dropped.
COKMUTATION or TITAZI._

Lord DA CHB then rose to move the second reading of the
bill which he introduced for efibeting a commutation of
tithes ; but, as his lordship spoke in • low tone, and with
his back to the bar, very little that fell from him was beard
below it. He was understood to state, that his connection
with agriculture had naturally drawd his attention to this
subject ; and that he was anxious to devise some remedy for
the admitted evils of the tithe system. In stating theobjects
of his bill, he felt he must throw himself on the indulgence of
their lordships, as be found himself anticipated on many
points, and had already been replied to by one of the most
powerful and learned persons in the house. If he (Lord
D.) conceived that the bill introduced by the most reverend
prelate would be at all operative, he would give it his earnest
support, but in the present state of agriculture he did not
contemplate that the powers given by the Most Bev. Pre-
late's bill would induce the occupiers of land to apply
capital to permanent improvements. The application of
capital to agriculture could only be produced by a per-
manent provision relative to tithes ; and the only yerma-
rent provision was a commutation for a fair and full
equivalent. He concurred with those who thought that
the right to tithes was as full and sacred, and in com-
plete, as the right which their lordships had to their es.
tates ; but the collection of this property led to such
inconvenience, and impeded the application of capital to
agricultural improvement so much, as to justify their
lordships in enquiring whether they ought ist.t to end and
apply some substitute for this species of property, by
giving the proprietors a full equivalent for the property de-
stroyed and extinguished. The great evil of the dthe system
was, that tithes increased in proportion to the cost and ex-
penses of cultivating the land. In early periods, when there
was only a species of rude cultivation, the tithe produced
little more than the tenth of the actual value of the land;
but as the expenses of cultivation increased, the value of
the tithes increased in proportion. The result was mama.
rily the suspension of the application of capital to agricul-
tural improvements to a most injurious extent. The COM-
mutation of tithes by land had often been tried in en-
closure and allotment bills. There were many objections,
however, to a commutation in land on any large scale. It
would be difficult to prevent dilapidation, and there was an
objection to placing so much land in ntortmain in the coon.
try. There were many cases In which corn rents were tried
as a commutation for tithes, and the experiment bad worked
beneficially. In those cases he had never heard any imputa-
tion or suspicion of fraud, and he had therefore adopted the
principle. The principle was, that a rent should be paid to
the tithe-owner, vibrating with the price of corn. It was
for the interest of agriculture, and more especially for the
interest of the established church, that the tithe-owner's
interest, as arising front the application of extraneous
capital to land, should cease ; and that no one was less In.
dined to propose any thing injurious to the church than he
was. (Hear.) He considered, however, that a measure
like that which he proposed would, give security to all pro.
perty. and to Church property in particular. His great ob.
ject was to let capital loose, and, by giving the tithe-owner
a rent-charge on the land, vibrating with the price of wheat,
be would receive a full equivalent for his property, and an
end would be put to litigation. The noble lord then pro-
ceeded to explain the details of the measure, in some of
which he stated, that he would be willing to make changes
to meet the objections which had been made. In conclu-
sion, the noble lord observed that he would be happy to
I accept the Composition Bill of the most rev. prelate if he
thought it would be effectual, but he was satisfied that a
measure of commutation would give security to the property
of the landholder, and strength to the Church Establishment,
whilst it would relieve the people. The noble lord then
moved the second reading of the bill.
Lord WYNFORD thought that, to enable the House to
adjust the rights of the tithe owner and the tithe payer, they
should have the questions of composition and commutation
before them. The rights of the landowner and those of the
titheowner ought to be contrasted, in order to enable the
House to come to a proper selection upon the question.
t When once that species of composition was established,
thete wouid be no difficulty in making arrangements,
' whereby the titheowners would be secure. He was per. I
suaded that the landowners of this country were most ge-
nerous, and would willingly make sacrifices to effect such'
arrangement. He was also persuaded that any other com-
mutation except lands, would be detrimental to the interests
of the clergy. Dr. Payley and Dr. Smith recommended a
commutation similar in principle to that which the present
bill proposed. lie had objections to Commutation Bills
in general, but lie was decidedly hostile to the bill before
the house, for it went to take away part of the property of
the church,witbout giving any equivalent for it, though as his
ncble and learned friend on he woolsack had expressed to-
night, that property was as sacred as any other property.—
If a bill of this kind was to be compulsory on one side, it
should be also compulsory on the other. If the parishioners
had a right to call on the clergyman to take a certain com-
mutation, the clergyman should have an equal right to coin-
, pet the parishioners au the other hand to give a certain com-
mutation, otherwise it could not be considered an equitable
adjustment. There was another ground on which he ob.
jected to this bill, namely that Quakers and Dissenters
would, in some places, have the appointment of the umpir:.
Yet there was no appeal from the decision of such umpire,
for it was to be decisive. He submitted that this bill was a
direct attack on the church, and consequently he would op.
pose It. The noble and learned lord concluded by moving
that it be read a second time that day six months.

The Earl of CARNARVON could not admit that a
commutation of land alone was the only proper one. If
such a system of commutation as this bill prorosed were
adopted, many of the clergy would be in a inic:rable altos-
den. Feeling as he did considerable difficulty in voting
against commutation, be could not but wish that this mea-
sure was not pressed now. He did not think there would be
sufficient time to give such a measure due consideration, if
an important measure, now in the other house, was to be
pressed on them in all its details, before an adjournment
took place.
The Arbishop of CANTERBURY rose to request the
noble lord (Dam) to withdraw his motion. It would be
impossible for him to vote in favour of the bill, and it would
give him pleasure not to be called upon to give it a direct
negative.
Earl GREY also recommended the Noble Lord not to
proceed with the present bill until the bill of the Rev. Pre-
late should have been disposed of. He only recommended
that he should withdraw, not abandon it. He (Earl Grey)
confessed himself friendly to the measure of the Reverend
Prelate, and he thought the details of the bill well oleo.
lated to carry the principle of it into beneficial effect. He