Star.
London, England, 1822-02-16 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

The Smitten took the Chair a few minutes before four.
Two new Members then took the oaths and their seats.
A person from the Bank of Pmgland laid on the table some
papers relating to the amount of Bank notes in circulation.—Or-
tiered to be printed.
On the motion of Mr. AIItRCROMIT the Edinburgh Police
Bill was read a second time, and ordered to be committed.
Mr. WILLIAM DU N DAS brought In a Bill to the same
effect, which was read a first and second time, and ordered to
Le committed.
Lord ST A NLEY presented a Petition from certain Owners
and Occupiers of Land in Lancashire, complaining of Agricul-
tural Distress.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. WYY I 1.1. presented a similar Petition from the North
Riding of Yorkshire. The Hon. Member added some few ob-
servations on the dcpreciatiqn of agricultural produce, and on
the rimsequent inability of farmers to sustain the great burden of
taxation.—The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed.
Lord N LIG ENT presented a similar Petition from the Oc-
cupiers of Land its the neighbourhood of Ayksbuey, in Bucking-
The Noble Lord said the I'r:tit:oilers complained chiefly
of exce-sive taxation, and of the defective state of the Represen-
t.:tion in that House. The Resolution on the latter subject was
opposed ar the Meeting at which the Petition was agreed to by
two only. The people felt aggrieved because, having gone with
the country in the support of a long and arduous war, they had
b.en deltnied by promises of relief on the coming of peace; but
even now, after the seventh year of peace, they found no re-
lasitiou from their burdens, they saw nothing before them but
a:esp.& and misery. In times of profound peace they were b-
bouiiiig unaer a war establishment system of taxation, and that
:No with a reduced currency. The country had returned to
cash payments, and consequently to a reduced currency, while
t:,e salaries of the officers in the different departments of the
:ate remained undiminished; and at the same amount which
were during the war. His constituents felt Low wrong
e::at system was, and implored the House to afford a remedy
before things would come to a crisis, beyond which their suffer-
ings would he intolerable. On that very night, probably, it would
ne determined whether that fearful crisis WAS or was not ape
; roaching. Ills constituents did not think that any relief could
Ts afforded ahem by taxing the consuming population. They
thought the return to cash payments a wise and wholesome
measure, but they complained that the salaries paid to the pub-
serraots were not reduced in proportion to the increased
v. h.. of money. They complained that the expenses of the
Court had arrived at an enormous height, and were a disgrace
to the country that suffered such extravagance. They com-
plained that four and a half millions of the public money had
been given away by Ministers for the purposes of influencing
votes, or, in other words, for the purposes of corruptioo. His
constituents also prayed for a Reform of Parliament, and
on that subject strongly, because they felt deeply the evils arising
from the defective and corrupt state of the Representation of
that House. At the same time they were most respectful In
th-ir language. They had gone along with the House during
tuenty-sevzii years of difficulties and dangers,withoot a murmur.
Tr:y only wished for the advantage of having a market for
their produce. They asked that not of his Majesty's Ministers,
foe from them they could entertain no hope, but they asked it
of that house, which was the constitutional guardian of the
people's rights.
Sit ISA AC COFFIN said, that the Noble Lord had talked
of Parliamentary Reform. The best plan of Reform, in his
(Sir Isaac Coffin's) opinion, was that which might be founded
on the exclusion from that House of persons who had neither'
talent nor property. The sooner, therefore, the House was
weeded of such Members as himself (Sir Isaac Coffin), who had
neither, the better—( Loud laughter).—The Petition was then
brought up, read, and ordered to be printed.
Lord NUGENT presented another Petition from the same
class of persons, signed by 200 names. He could tell the lion.
3lember !Sir Isaac Coffin) that this Petition did not call for Re-
form. It did not menace the Hon. Member with the loss of his
teat. He (Lord Nugent), in his view of Reform, never con-
templated the exclusion of the Ilan. Member.—The l'etition
was *read, and ordered to be printed.
Lord NUGENT presented another Petition, from the Into-
nantsof Stoke Mandeville, in Buckinghamshire, praying for a

reduction of taxes.—Laid on the table.
Mt. S. RICE gave notice, that on Tuesday next be would
rr.ove for certain Papers relating to the Irish Courts of Justice.
Lord A LTIIOII PE presented a Petition from the Tanners.
Curlers, and Leather-sellers, of Perth, praying for a reduction,
of the additional duty on leather. The Noble Lord added, dist
Was not any one specific tax—not this tax nor that tax—but
:he great mass of taxation, which pressed heavy on the
I!e was sure, that whatever plan the Noble Marquis migrg:
iGse on that night would hare noieffect, unless it operated to
1:e reduction of taxes generally. The tax on leather, of which
the Petitioners complained, was a most oppressive one.—The
Petition was then read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. CU ItTEIS presented a Petition from the Agriculturists
and Occupiers of Land in the County of Sussex, complaining of
a:isms% and praying for protection against the importation of
fcrei-n corn.—Ordered to be printed.
117. FELLOWES presented a Petition from the Occupiers
of Land in Huntingdonshire, complaining of agricultural dis-
tress.—Laid on the table. _ _

Mr. DICKENSON presented three similar Petitions front I
the Clergy, Freeholders, and other Inhabitants of Chard, Tasso-
tc.r., arid another place in Somersetshire.—Ordered to be printed.
Jr. TY NTE presented three other Petitions f.om parts of
the same County, complaining of agricultural distress, and of the
overwhelming burden of taxation, and praying for a reduction
of sinecures.—Ordered to be printed.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE presented a Petition from the Bath
and West of England Agricultural Society. The Petitioners did
not speculate on the remedy to be afforded them, but left that
to the wisdom of Parliament. The Petitions presented by his
Hoy. Colleague (Mr. Dickeuson) went a great length oh that
suhject.--Ordered to be printed.
Mr. LITTLETON presented a Petition from the Dairy
Farmers in the County of Stafford, complaining of the unequal
operation of the Duty on Salt, and praying for a reduction colt.
—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. DUGDALE presented a Petition from the Occupiers of
Land in the County of Warwick, complaining of Agricultural
Distress.—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. GOOCH presented a similar Petition front the Otto-
iticrs of Land in the County of Suffolk. His constithents had
not mixed up any political opinions with their Petition. They
"did not think that a Reform in Parliament would bring into
their pockets one shilling a quarter more for their wheat.
Mr. BENNET said, that if Parliamentary Reform did not
bring a shilling into their pockets, it would have kept ten shit-
nap in them.
After a few words from Mr. Coot, Lord Nvossr, Mr. Goocw,
and Mr. Banotrr, the Petition was ordered to be printed.
Lord A RCM I BA LD HAMILTON postponed, until Mon.
day nest, his two Motions relating to the Scotch Burghs and
Conussisgon Courts.
Mr. HUMS gave notice that, on Monday next, he would
move for the Army Returns.
Mr. BRNN irr gave notice of a Motion for Thursday, the
leltit last. on the subject of the late Queen's Funeral
Lord J. RUSSELL gave notice that, on the 25th April, he
would suluait a Its that the subject of Parliamentary
Etiorm required the utmost attention of the House.
;NIL IiONYWOOD vaunted a Petition (rum the Land

Mr. R. SMITH presented • similar Petition font certain.
Inns of Buckinghamshire—Ordered to be printed.
Mr. WETHERELL presented a similar Petition from tip
es
of Land In Onfordshire—Laid on the table.
e Lund J. RUSSELL presented a similar Petition from esrirYl
Parishes in Huetingdonshire.—lAM on the table.
Mr. COKE presented a similar Petition from NornAbesierM-*
dared to be printed.
Mr. HUME moved that there' be laid before the Hanle stn
Account of the number of Stamps issued for N gust*
the year leci and the same account for 17911, - teed
in each Account the London from the Provincial Papers;
also distinguishing the number issued to each of the London
Papers.-.-Ordered.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said he held in his head the
most respectably signed Petition that he bad ever seen. It Was
from the inhabitants of Westminster. They were of opinion'
that the pressure of taxation on all classes was the great cause et
the present distress; but they complained still more of the vie.
laden of the laws, and of the Constitution of the meuttry, for
many years. The Petitioners stated that it was to the ete•
ration of the law, generally known by the name of Mr. Petti'sßill,
they attributed the diatrssa In that opinion he (Sir Francis
Burdett) could not concur. When the depreciation of the Ur"
rency was lowest, only about eight or nine per cent. the pekes
of agricultural produce was *ea highest; therefore he would
maintain that there could be no connection between the depre-
ciation of the currency and the low prices of agricultural pro-
duce. Three years before the introduction of Mr. Peel's Bill
there was a great deprerion in the prices of corn, which could
not be attributable to that Bill. There never was cause and
effect less connected. Mr. Peel's Bill only commenced gradual
return to cash payments, and was a wholesome measure. The
Petitioners prayed for Parliamentary Reform.
Mr. HOB HOUSE said he never saw a Petition more re-
plete with good sense and wholesome truths than that presented
by his Honourable Colleague. The Petitioners said the wishes
of the people were always disregarded by his Majesty's Ministers.
That was not denied by the present Ministers, who made their
character by disregarding the people. The Petitioners com-
plained of the defective state of the Representation. It was
to the corruption of Parliament was to be atuibued all the
evils of the country—it was to the corruption of Parliament
they were to ascribe the American war—lt was to theeorrup-
don of Parliament they were to ascribe the disgraces abroad,
and the distress at home. Among their grievances the Peti-
tioners classed what had been stated In that House to be the bul-
wark of their liberties—namely, a standing army. s The neat
point to which the Petitioners adverted was the intolerable load
of taxes, which amounted to £1,000,000 in every six days, or
4110,000 every day. The best definition he ever heard of
Revenue was, that it was that which each person paid out of
Isis private property, in order to the comfortable and secure en-
joyment of the remainder. But could that definition be applied
to the Revenue of this country ? On the contrary, they saw
what they gave going into the Minister's pocket, in order to
provide a fund, into which their whole property would ulti-
mately come. The Petitioners attributed much of the distress
of the country to the want of sympathy between them and that
House. They also complained of the massacre of Manchester,
which he hoped would be Inquired into one time or another.—
The massacre of Glencoe, he recollected, was without inquiry
into it for six years.—(There was loud and continued cis
which prevented any more of the Hon. Member's observations
from being heard.)—The Petition was then read.
On the question that it be laid on the table,
Lord OSSULSTON rose to express his dissent from the
Hon. Baronet, who stated that no part of the distress was attri-
butable to the operatioa of the change of currency. He wax
quite of a different opinion.
Sir F. BURDETT, in explanation, observed, that he had
only stated that the measure was a wholesome measure.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table, and be printfd.
Mr. FREMANTLE presented a Petition from the Occu-
piers of 26,000 Acres of Laud. in Buckinghamshire, praying for
an increase of protecting duties on agricultural produce.—Laid
on the table. _ _

Mr. PRICE presented a Petition from the farmers and other
inhabitants of Ross, in the county of Hereford, praying for a
most rigid inquiry into all the expenses of the State, with a view
to a large reduction. Also for reduction of the Debt; and
lastly for Reform. He agreed with the Petitioners as to the
first point, but to the prayer for a reduction of the National
Debt, he must for the present object. He would object also
to any large, sudden, comprehensive Reform. Every year con-
firmed his persuasion of the necessity of a gradual change in the
present state of the Representation, and be thought an addi-
tional reason why some, steps should be taken to bring it about
was, that there was now great anxiety evident throughout the
country in favour of such a measure.—Laid on the table.
Lord F. OSBORNE gave notice, that he would, on Monday
nut, move in the Committee of Supply, a grant for the number
of seamen to be employed for the current year.
STATE OF THE NATION.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY. moved the
Order of the Day for the House taking into consi-
deration his Majesty's most gracious Speech.
The Order of the Day having been read by the
Clerk at the table,
The Marquis Of LONDONDERRY rose.--The
House would believe him when he assured them that
upon no occasion, in the whole course of his public
life, did he address them with feelings of so much
anxiety as those under whick he then laboured. It
had never before been his lot to call the attention of
the House to a subject of such interest as the pre-
sent—an interest, he believed, as great within those
walls as a undoubtedly was without them. The in-
terest of every person in the community was more
or less involved in the discussion of that night—
(Hear, hear).—He felt depressed at the possibility of
not adequately discharging. his duty, and he there-
fore threw himself on the indulgence of the House.
It was his wish to compress as much as possible all
the information he had to lay before the House ; and
yet he wished to omit no fact of any importance.
—lf, therefore, in the course of his address, he
should, in order to economize the time of the House,
assume propositions, rather than prove them—if he
stated figures, the conclusions upon which were not
immediately clear, he begged the House, fur the
moment, to admit the assumption in one case, and
the conclusion in the other—he pledging himself not
to hazard any one statement in which he would not,
afterwards be completely borne out. The House
would be aware that the statement he was about to
make was One extremely liable to error; but he as-
sured them that he would advance nothing but what
he believed to be founded in truth, upon solid infor-
mation ; and that where, fi om inadvertency, he might
be led into a mistake, he should consider himself as
open to correction—(/Dear, hear).—it was his w ish to
economise the time of the House, and therefore he
should proceed upon the clear pi inciple of laying down
data upon which he should argue, and in support of
them he should bring forward those calculations
which he believed to be true. It was gratifying to
him to be able to state, that he should start from the
same point as the Iluaourable and Learned Gentle-
man opposite (Mr. li,ongliansi, who had preceded
him on the same subject the other night; but although

they advanced from the same point, hf travelling
over the wide geld of discussion. the? *told soon
part company by the way. He had Ms otojettidn to
assume, with that Learned Gentleman, that such was
'the situation of the country, that there was no degree
of economy whidi. Parliament could attain to—no
mode of relief consistent with the doctrines of politi-
cal ecunoehy which could be devised for abating the
pressure of tendon, that it was not the bounden duty'
of Parliament to apply-4 Hear, hear).—lt was im-
possible, after the struggle from which this country
had passed. and with the important changes in the
diversions of property which had been 'directed by the
return to that standard .of currency which ought al-
ways to be the measure of the country, that it should
not be oppressed with difficulties which required their
most laborious and most vigilant exertions to coun-
teract. With respect to this view of the matter,
therefore. the Honourable and Learned Gentleman
and himself started horn the same point. They dif-
fered in the mode of administering relief, but in their
' impihience fof economy entirely agreed. He would
not,' however, detain the House Tong in explaining
the distinction between that Honourable and Learned

Gentleman's views and his own; nor would he trouble
them at all with this branch of the question, could
he feel persuaded that the House had read, as he (the
Marquis of Londonderry) had done, the picture which
the Honourable Member drew of the state of the
country in 1816, and compared it with that which
he drew the other night, for that contrast would
establish all he wished to point out as the distinction
between their views. Fortunately for the country, the
House had not been hurried into that course, so con-
trary to the dictates of wisdom, which the florid pic-
tures of distress placed before their eyes, even so
late as last Session, had been intended to operate.—
That distress, the House might be assured, was fast
moving away before those great national causes,
' which a country like this never failed in evincing
in the hour of need. The commercial and nunufac-
' turing interests had undergone such a change as ex-
hibited them in a situation of more healtUul pro-
sperity than they had ever before been at any period
of our history, He did not wish to be understood as
asserting that these classes were now working for as
high prices as ever they had been ; for then it would
be the reverse of what he had stated, ai they all
knew how much idleness accrued from extravagance.
But instead of industry being goaded on by extrava-
gant wages, it was sustained and encouraged by
adequate returns. The manufacturing classes were
in a state of great comfort, and looking towards
better times even. It would not be too much to say
of them, that they now got twelve-pence where before
they only could get eight-pence, and that they could
obtain for the latter what formerly would have con

them the former. So that they /A- ere enjoying an
improvement of 100 per cent—(Hear, hear).—He
was able to go along with the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman.(lllr. Brougham) in deeply deploring the
condition of the agricultural interests, under the tem-
porary pressure of evils to which they were subjected.
He hoped, however, that what he said as matter of
consolation, they would be satisfied proceeded from
a tone of mind which was the consequence of his en-
tering with deep sensibility into their sufferings. His
interest was so bound up with the landed, that if he
was to exercise any watchfulness upon himself, it
would be directed against those dispositions into
which the feelings of humanity might hurry him. It
was almost ilupossible to separate interests in this
country, but unquestionably the landed interest was
entitled to the greatest share of popular sympathy—
(Hear, hear).—He must here correct the Hon. and
Learned Gentleman opposite, as to a statement he
had made connected with this branch of the subject,
relative to the decrease in the consumption of malt.
He was the more desirous of doing this, because he
was aware of the double purpose that statement was
intended to effect, in pointing at the operation of
taxation in oppressing the agricultural more than
other interests. The Hon. and Learned Gentleman

had gazed, as an extraordinary fact, that the country

, .
consumed nearly one-third less malt now than it did
thirty years ago. If the Hon. Gentleman meant to
state that the consumption of malt had not kept pace
with the growth of population, he (Lord London-
derry) would not contend against him ; but if he
meant to say that a diminution in the consumption
of this article proved a diminution of means in the
nation, he stood decidedly opposed to him. All that
was proved by it, he meant to contend, was, that it
proved a change in the habits and tastes of the country;
for he would point out an increased consumption in
other articles more expensive; so that the argument
of the Hon. Gentleman, if good for anything, meant
that there was a general decay of prosperity, or that
the tax on that atttcle was limited. He had caused
estimates to be made of the consumption of malt for
Ithe last thirty years, by which it appeared there had
been no diminution of consequence; and the House
would observe it was rather a whimsical circum-
stance that the lea_t quantity of malt was consumed
when the taxes were the least. For the three years
ending 1791, the number of quarters that paid duty
were 27 millions, and for each succeeding term of
three years as follows :
Qrs. Qrs. Qrs. Qrs.
26,000,000 21,000,000 I 04,000,000 I 23,000,000
I 29,000,000 24,000,000. 2149%000 24,000•002
For the three year* enaryg 1821, 22,697,000.
It was evident, therefore, that there was no diminu-
tion, although there had not been an increase pro-
portioned to the increased population. The reason
of this, however, was explained by a teference to the
increased consumption of tea by those classes who
formerly indulged much in the use of beer—(Hear,
hear).—He assured the Hon. and Learned Gentleman
be was not going to argue the matter of beer versus
Itea, or tea versus beer, as to their respective merits;
but he would produce a similar calculation, with re-
I Bard to the consumption of that article, in support
I of what he bad advanced. The calculation corn-
minced at, and covered the same period, and the

"bans tepiegenuid urR tionsdnipilen toi skulls& perioci
of three mirk- It would be' hdrne in 'hind thht the
duty nLoll telk it. the year 1701, was L'lB 10s. per
cent. The eohsemptiott for the grit end following
term of three yeah wet:—
tbs. . lbs. • :lbs.
atooa,ooo 1 Simo,obb aboitomobb I admo,boo
11.41•00001/0 110,000.050 I eb,o*eob es,
to,eoupee For the three year!esdieg lash sirot=
It was now liable to a duty of nearly 100 per cent:
So that it appeared that flits impoverished bountryi
snffevint under the mils bf oitir-popolOtion, bad
chosen to consume nearly one-sixth more of tea at a
duty of 100 per cent. than the
.had, done *hen . it
only supported g tax of EIS. 'They had voluntarily
subjected theniselves to a tax WhiCh they might havd
escap!d—(lfear, hear). He did not mean to .stop
here in showing the growth of comfort Amongst all
classes of the community--and probably it wouldbel
gratifying to the Hon. and Learned Gentleman td
Leath that a considerable increase of cleanliness had,
taken place. Not only was there a great aogrnentoir
don under the head of bricks to build with, butot
the article of soap, the quantity was doubled (Harr):
He would not go on, however, through the long list
of exciseable articles which exhibited the same sackn
factory alteration, not wishing unnecessarily to take
up the time of the House. But he could not refrain
from bringing before them one other document which
spoke volumes on the same subject. It went to prove
indisputably that the distress of the country was not
so pregnant and irremediable as had been assiduously
represented. And he must here say, that he knew
no greater cruelty than when the people were suffer. •
ing from causes which could not be controuled, to
preach up to them false doctrines, the only effect of
which must be to plunge them deeper in despondency
—(Hear). He begged to be understood as pointing
at the pernicious doctrines of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham)—such was not
the language of real iriendship—(Cheera). The docu-
ment he spoke of was one which compared the Excise
colleitions of the whole kingdom for the last year
with the preceding. By this would be seen the work.;
ing of the Excise laws over the whole surface of
Great Britain, by which 16 millions and a half were
brought in. The number of Excise collections was
59, and on a revenue of 16 millions and a half there
was a gross increase in the majority of the collections
of 1,528,00C1. last year over the preceding. There was,
it was true, a decrease in some few collections, to the
amount of 125,0001. leaving a net increase of about
1,400,0001. or between nine and ten per cent. on the
Excise collections of the kingdom—(Hear). But
even this failing off could be accounted for locally,
and in no way went to affect thosegeneral principles
of resurrection and prosperity, which, if the House
would but support, as it was their duty to do, would,
by their natural progress, restore all things to the
state they had left—(Hear). Of this number of col-
lections, fifty-nine, there were only six collections
which exhibited any diminution of excise duty, and
only two of any amount. Two or three were only
to the amount of two or %COOL and it was but in the
collection of Canterbury, Sussex, and Worcester that
the remaining material part of the diminution pro-
ceeded from—and this the failure in the Hop. Duty
would at once explain—(Hear). He was happy then
to be able to relieve the House on this branch by
chewing them that the set-off against the universal
prosperity of the kingdom was of so inconsiderable
a nature. On the Revenue prcceeding from this
source, there was a proof of its exceeding other years
by at least one million. That the commerce of the
'country was largely and rapidly increasing, he was
able to state from official returns. Thus the returns
for the year ending October, ISI9, amounted to the
sum of 37,590,0001. for 1820, 38,272,000. and for
1821, 42,717,000/. an increase of 4,200,0001. over
the last year, and nearly six millions over the ante-
cedent. So that under all that pressure which he ad-
mitted to exist, commerce was largely and steadily
growing, and all articles of ordinary consumption
exhibited an increase which was universally distribu-
ted throughout the whole kingdom—(Hear). Before
he came to what was the most important duty he
should have to perform, viz, to lay before the House
a view of what he conceived was the actual financial
state of the country, he would make a few prelimi-
nary observations, which would tend to shorten the
road between the Hon. and Learned Gentleman op.
posite (Mr. Brougham) and himself. He believed
that Honourable Gentleman had endarioured to
shew that the reduction of taxes alone, of course
not refusing credit to the favourable operations of
nature, could reduce the agricultural distresses,.
He looked to the repeal of taxes as anxiously as the
Hon. Gentleman, but he would state the general
view he took of that question, which led him to deny
that relief to the agriculturist could effectually be
given in the repeal of taxation. Even if they swept
away the whole mass of taxes which afrected,tbe
.agriculturist, it would not relieve him from the
sure of burdens under which he now su
(Cheers from the Oppositiea)—He would remain
under the pressure of the same evils if no taxation
fell on him at all. The result to which those who
examined this question would be led was, he believed,
that the amount of taxes which could by
.possibility
bear on the cultivator of the land in his double ca-
pacity of consumer and grower, was not mote than
one-seventh part of the landlord's rent. But to avoid
all controversy, he was willing to take it at one fifth
of the rent. Now if the taxes bore, the proportion
of onejf/lh to the landlord's tent, and that rent
held the proportion of onefosirti to the value of the
produce of the soil, the taxes which bore ou the
cul-
tivator were one.tweatieth part of the value of . that
produce, or five per cent. on the whole. Then,he
aNkcd, how could any, relief it was in the power of
Parliament to administer, to t.e extent of 5 pti r
cent. have to do with.the distress complained 0f#,..a.,
(Hear, hear)—But even supposinj that they were
in a state to afford this relict of 5 per cent.
income of the land, ss Zilch was equal to a

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of seven or eight millions of taxes, it was
much to asoomb that from the numerous c,
through which it must pass, not above one-.
would reach the pockets of the real cultivator.
State must therefore make a sacrifice of sixi
seventeen millions, or not give relief to the e;
5 per cent. But it was plain the difference
farmer would not be so material as to desers
sacrifice. He must look for relief, not to the repeal
• of taxation, but to the- great law of Nature. He re-
. pe aed, that it was?not tax,ation that affected the far-
mer—Mark-lane influenced him more. Taxation
was but a corner of the question, and that he had
demonstratively shewn. His view of this was sup-
ported by the assertion of the Hon. and Learned
Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), that even if the land•
lord gave up the whole of hierent it 'would not assitti
the farmer. Was it not therefore an insult to the,
common sense of the country to say, in the same
• breath, that the redaction of taxation could alonte
relieve him ? He knew it would be said, " where
is relief to come from ?•' His answer was, Si whe*
it' always does come from"—capital was never long
unproductive. The laws of political economy offered
the farmers a better source of hope than the confiseo•
• tion of taxes—they were in the hands of PaoymeNes,
and would be relieved by the due 'course of Nature.
What state were the manufactures in two years ago?
If the farmer was Ignorant of his true interests—of
• the prinCiples of political economy—and even could
Parliament be so infatuated as to remove him from
. the class of contributors to the State, it would not
ft uctify to him. The benefit intended to be given him
would he taken from him; by an increased the pro-
dime, when it would be taken by the landlord, or he
• Would loie it in the concession of that price which he
. now demanded. And this would be the punishment
of Parlament and the agriculturist, for yielding to
the delusive misrepresentation of relief accruing from
exception from taxation, and hoping to take this, or
any other class, out of the operation of the laws of
nature—(Hear, hear). He would next, as clearly
and shortly as possible, put the House in possession
of the view which his Mljesty's Ministers took of the
financial state of the country, and the means they
looked forward to of making it tend to the general
• prosperity. And it would be satisfactory to the
House to know, that up to the latest period, the Re-
-venue continued to shew an increase on a correspond-
ing 'Quarter last Year. Up to the 13th of February,
being five weeks of the present Quarter, there was an
increase of Ec2o`4,ooo—(Hear). The best course he
could take to put the House in full possession of the
'views of Government, would be, by first apprising-
them of the extent of reduction they had been able
to make since Parliament last met—to shew, under
that system of reduction, what would- be the state of
the income and expenditure, and what actual sur-
plus had been realized ; and that would lead him to
-the question, of what would be the best application
of the means thus derived for the interests of the
country. He would make his statements in round'
numbers, for although it was his intention soon to:
move for the estimates of the different branches to'
be laid before the House, he thought he could not
too soon let them know his general idea on this in-'
teresting and important subject—(Hear, hear). He•
should state what it was intended to call upon the;
House to vote as the supplies for the year, and
•the amounts under the different heads might then
be compared with former years, giving a clear in-
sight of the course they were pursuing—(Hear).—
Thus the Estimate of Supply that would be required
for the Army, ordinaries and extraordinaries, was
£7,748,000. Last year it was £8,736,000, being a di-
minution of nearly a million (Hear, hear.)—The Navy
Estimates, last year, amounted to £6,382,000; this
year it would be £5,500,000, making a diminution
of £Boo,ooo—(Hear, hear).—The Ordnance, last
year was £1 ,094,000; this year it would be £1,200,000;
but it wculd be recollected that, last year, consider.
able aid was derived in this department from the
sale of stores, which eh cumstance, taken into calcu-
lation, made a real diminution equal to £lOO,OOO.
The Miscellaneous Estimates for the last year were
£1,800,000, this year they would only amount to
£1,700,000. The interest of Exchequer Bills, which
was last year £1,386,000, would be £1,290,000. Thus
the total supply for last year was £19,398,000, for this
£17,438,000; making a clear reduction 01E1,950,000
—(Hear).—This was the actual reduction, exclusive
of £BO,OOO transferred to the Navy Estimates, in-
stead of being supported from other sources. The
estimates for 1820, amounted to £21,083,900, com-
pared with which the reduction in the present year
was 3,355,0001. Comparing the aggregate of the
Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Miscellaneous Esti-
mates of the present year, with the amount fixed by
the Finance Committee of 1819, it appeared to be
£1,107,000. There was a saving of neatly two mil-
lions over last year, and 3,600,0004 over the year
1820. He would point the attention of the House
to what proportion this two millions was a saving of.
There were five millions connected with the Army
over which Government had no controul, and which,
therefore, leaving a dead weight, the whole amount
under the power of Government must be taken at
thirteen millions, making the saving of two millions
1-6th or 1-7th of the whole—Weer, hear)—Having
presented to the mind
.of the House what the true
Estimates of the year were, he ought to state, on the
*other hand, that there would be two extraordinary
-charges this year. One would be on account of the
disturbances in Ireland, for which it was intended
to present a distinct Estimate, to the amount of
£350,000; and the second was a grant imposed to
be Made for Greenwich Hospital of-£320,000. These
aerotild not, 'however, long continue to' obscure the
Estitnates. The disturbances in Ireland, he was
happy to say, would, according to every appear-
ance, be confined within a very limited period ; and
it was in the contemplation of the Noble Lord at the
head of the Admiralty, to absorb the charge for
Greenwich Hospital into the body of the Estimates.
He should have stated, that this sum for Greeuwich
became chargeable from the cessation of those sources
of Revenue which accrued to it during the war. The
Noble Marquis then proceeded to call the attention
of die House to the state of the Income and Expen-
diture, and•to'shew the surplus of the former, having
fsfrit directed the Clet k to read a Resolution to whicfi
the House had come, founded' upon the Report of
"'mance Committee of 1819. The' Resolution
A, that it was'necessary to have a clear Sink-
Und to the'amuunt of five millions; and that in

,000... ,how•
ever, the extraordinaries which mem ...ering the
last yiiir, and which' *could not Meueggain,-ort. the
transfer of the Customs an& Excise coast _blqrkadx to
the Navy 40,000,e.. and the, reslao‘iona in ,cute:. d
or
superannuation, f.,ramounting to £150,000,,t0 r et-
£230,000, there approved an income or £56. ;000,
—But tilers the Horse Tax being equal to WOO,
which was,. given up last year, •and a payment "Oft
French indemnities, £BOO,OOO, • which, to the honour
of France, had been;paid, main* £600,000 on that
score ; and £219,000 fordPnblic whik, together
amounting Co £999,000, were. to be dedncted from
the sum of £56,227,000. This left a clear Revenue
of A:55,228,090. Of the Expenditure there were per-
manent and other charges on the Consblidated Fund,
amounting t0.£31;650,000. The Interest en Exche-
quer Bills was £4500,000, and the Estimates of the
-Army, Navy, Ordnance, and Greenwich Hospital, as
before stated, made a total expenditure, eiclusive cif
extraordinaries of £49,618,000,. and with the addi-,
Lion of 0.50,000 for Ireland, £49;968,000; deduct-'
ing therefore the expenditure, £49,968,000, from the
total income, £55,228,000, there remained a clear
surplus of revenue of £5,260,000, covering both the
extraordinary and ordinary expenses of the years On
this subject he should make no other observation than
as regarded India, with respect to which he expected
to be able to prevail on the Company to admit a par•
ticipation in some charges which had hitherto fallen
wholly upon this country. The East India Company
supported a body of twenty-three thousand troops,
which this country afforded them annually, but they
did not bear any part in supporting the Invalids they
sent home from that country. It was evidently just
that they should do this, and although he had not
yet been successful, he could never believe he should
long continue otherwise. He was sure that Honour.
able Body would feel too much pleasure in contri-
buting to the burdens of the State, during the present
distressed state of the country, to perevere much
longer in refusing to admit that just claim. Be-
vies ing the statement he had just laid before the
House, he thought he,should not do justice to the
House, nor to his Right Hon. Friend (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer), if he did not congratulate them
on the proud eminence on which they stood. In com-
pliance with the Resolution they had just heard read,
notwithstanding the pressure of distress on the coun-
try, his Right Hon. Friend was able to present Par-
liament a clear, undi?puted, serviceable surplus reve-
nee of five millions. He had the gratification and the
proud honour, as the Finance Minister of the country ,I
1
after having carried it through difficulties of finance
unexampled in this or any other country, to be able;
not only to equalize the expenditure, but to *realize a
credit, founded on a clear basis of five millions sur-
plus—as it rested with Parliament to use this great
instrument to regenerate the prosperity of the nation.
...it would now be for them to consider the policy of the
proposition cf the Honourable and Learned Gentle.
man opposite (Mr. Brongham) with regard to the
Sinking Fund. To do this, in his opinion, would be
to do away with that which had been their mainstay
in difficulty ; at once to dry up the sources of public
and private prosperity. Whether they would chuse
to apply this surplus to support the principles already,
laid down and acted upon, appropriate it to the re-
duction of taxation, or draw further upon those re-

urces which the country, notwithstanding taxation
possessed, it would be for the House to decide. The
principal object which his Majesty's Ministers had al-
ways kept in view was to support the high credit of
the country ; and they confidently looked forward to
diminishing the burdens of the country by reducing
the high rate of interest. He was happy to state
that there was a fund of 155,000,0001. in the Five
per Cents. and not less than 75,000,000/. in the Four
per Cents. The combined interest of these two great
masses amounted to 10,700,0001. annually. Acting
upon the great principle of supporting the public
credit, if the situation of the market should once
bring the Three per Cent. Stock to such a point as
to render it eligible to reduce the higher stock to the
level of three per cent. it was their intention to do
so, by which a considerable saving would be effected.
That they ought not to despair of this, he called
upon the House to recollect, that six years after Mr.
Pitt created his Sinking Fund, the Three per Cents.
which were as low as 58, rose to 9'7 and a fraction ;
and he did not expect any great interval would
elapse before they should be able, if not to lower
it to three per cent. at least to bring it nearer
to the measure. If this were accomplished, there
would be a saving of interest, and a consequent
increase in the Revenue of 9,700,000/.—(Hear)
No reduction of this kind, however, could take place,
so long as the credit of the country did continue to
remain unshaken, as it was to the,honour of the Le-
gislature to maintain those principles upon which the
prosperity of the country was founded. Those who
knew anything of the landed interest would know
how little it would serve them to destroy their faith
in the national credit. If this were not maintained,
the interest never would go below the usual rate;
and certainly nothing could be more beneficial to the
landed interest than the facility of obtaining money
at low interest in every department of industry—
(Hear, hear, hear).—He conjured the House to
consider what they had already had the manliness to
face; and, if the moral principle was still strong by
means of which they had re-established the monied
standard, from which he hoped the country would
never again depart—(Hear, hear)—he called upon
them with unerring hand to establish the standar() of
public prosperity—(Hear, hear).—Standing upon that
five millions of surplus, he had to state, that it was
the intention of his Majesty's Government to enter
into negociations for the reduction of the higher rate
of interest—(Hcar, hear).—Observe, necessity warall
that was urged by the Honourable and Learned Gen-
tleman, as a ground for sacrificing the national faith.
Necessity was the tyrant's plea, and whether it peeped
from under the gown of a Professional Gentleman or
came from the mouth of a Conqueror, was equally
obnoxious to the principles of honour and morality,
and he viewed it with equal horror—( Hear, hear).—
It was not the intention of GdeernMent to annex con-

:ing Fund—(_ .).
cre the'ptgasurtrof lineal° apply- it to
cllkalirect Jelief of. the • subject by a remittance. of
taxation, it would then become a question as tow re
the'ficluttitin. '- It being thus considered as
a dry qUestion' finttnaallscility, after the *host
aniions.and matiro deliberation' he was of opinion
leituti-as the Mak Duty was the last laid Ots,t and
amongst these abontlivisich there *as 'much, an s
f 46 the COUtitll, is klikectftitsfdered a tax parttsd-
lady -affecting the agricultural interest, and as it
would be the lest pledge they could give of thele
sympathy itsthe'snftrings of the people, that *mild'
be tliettstWitiitted—ffiear,-hear).—lt was, there-
fore, the intention of his -Right Hon. Frieod (the
Chtuitellor of the Exchequer),-when the annual Malt
Tax came before the frouse, to move that the word
Molt be struck out, -which would have the 'effeceOf
taking off the duty of one shilling a bushel oo
article, and, accomplish a relief from taxation to the
'amount of nearly 1,308,1100, exclusive of Ireltutd,
according to the working of the tax—("Wear, bdtr).
—Next Session it was .anticipated there would be a
further remission of taxes, to the amount of a million
—(Hear).—He hoped the House would forgive him,
if he ventured to go one step further in tracing the
progress of the system, supposing, of course, that
they would not; with a suicidal band, destroy it them-
selves before it had scope to work. Always allowing
for the intervention of unforeseen events, the prospect
before them promised a fuither annual relief from
taxation of better than half a million, exclusive of
the prospect of redeeming the Four and Five per
Cents. The million to be remitted next year would
be partly made up by the 'saving of the extraordinary
charges this year for Greenwich Hospital and Ireland.
As far as he could imagine, in the next six years they
would be able to remit to the amount of seven mil-
lions in annual taxes, and they will have reduced
the debt by five millions a-year, being thirty millions
sterling on the whole. By the course which he sug-
gested, great advantages would be derived from the
application of it to the Sinking Fund, but which
would be lost, with the Sinking Fund itself, if the plan
of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman were adopted.
diminishing the Five per Cents. great relief
would be afforded tothe country, and it was intended
to afford immediate relief, as be had already stated,
by repealing the Additional Malt Duty, amounting
to about £1,500,000. Having given the House a
general statement of the financial situation of the
country, having stated the amount of the income and
expenditure, and the measures which, according to
the view of his Majesty's Government, would be most
likely to fructify and benefit the nation, not at the
expense of the credit and character of the State, but
in a manner perfectly consistent with that good faith
which it had ever been the policy of Ministers to pre-,
serve inviolate, he would contend that the measures
they suggested would afford more copious relief than
could be obtained from any of the destructive pro-,
jects of the Hon. and Learned Gentleman. But he.
should not do his duty if he were not to direct the at:
tention of the House to those collateral means which
might be found to improve the position of the coun-
try on a sound and solid system,-which, improving it
in all its branches; would not fail to accelerate the ar-
rival of that day which would afford efficient relief
to the agricultural interest. This brought him to a
subject that he knew to be one of anxious interest
both in that House and out of doors, the currency of
the country. • Scarcely 'a Petition had been laid upon
their table which did not contain some suggestion on
the alteration of the currency, which was referred to
as one of the causes of the present distress—(Hear).
On this subject he went along with the Honourable
Baronet opposite; and he now desired to enter his
protest—his most solemn and unqualified protest,
against doing anything that might tend in the small-
est degree to shake that system, which, so much to
the honour of Parliament, and so much to the ho-
nour of the moral character of the country, had been
re-established and consecrated by the Bill brought
in by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr Peel). Though
there might have been some shades of difference be-
tween his opinion and that of the Right Hon. Gen-
tleman at the time, as to the particular circum-
stances under which the Bill should be introduced,
and the grounds by which the measure should be ac-
companied, no man could be more awake to the im-
portance of restoring our currency than he was, and
no man could feel more strongly than he did that
the decision to which Parliament had
.come ought
never to be shaken or set aside under any circum-
stances. Feeling thus, if there were anything in that
which he had now to propound that could be mis-
taken for an attempt to prevail on the House to lay
a sacrilegious hand on that sacred measure, he was
anxious to make it known that he would be the last
to give his sanction to such a proceeding. But he
felt that that which he had to suggest had in reality
„nothing to do with the currency of the country, when
he stated it to be the opinion of the Government
that great relief might be afforded by an arrange-
ment which would in a' slight degree augment the
unfunded debt. The House, who knew the amount
of the unfunded debt, would see that that to
which be alluded was not to be resorted to for
the accommodatien of the Government. It mat-
tered nothing to his Right Honourable Friend
whether he obtained four millions from the Bank
or not, with the object he had in view, and
Gon knew it was not contemplated with a view of
favouring the Bank. He felt that it might be of
some importance to the Bank that he should state
this, and that he should also state it to be his belief
that the Bank might have refused that which in the
present instance' they were ready to do; if it •had
been solicited as an accommodation to the Minister.
He had to announce that the Bank bad consented'to
advance on Exchequer Bills, issued at an interest of
S per cent. a sum not exceeding (bur millions, to be
repaid by instalments, and to be liable to be called
in at a short notice. Circumstanced as the Bank was,
it was nothing to their discredit that they coupled the
condition he Ihttl just stated with the meditated ad-
vance. 'they had. been called upon by Pasliament to

•
theyitawrtodel:laiStiS•edgit6::
important
muchirnea doubt hraelPetexisesa.
that sufficient gold
tna could
meet the demand that would be mak
moment cash payments were resumed,
circumstances,
they had done before, in such a ma
prepared to meet the demand that mitt
all points. Their conduct merited I
Though they had demanded paymelat
.nttlions due from she Public so them,
in the opinion of the Government, by
mind they carried their pretensions farther than
necessary,w
wasi
m)os ited wonas t felth them, they
t ha t e
'that of restoring the ancient currency of the
hallow;
demand that every security should be afforded to er
stole them to perform the task which-they had
to Claim. It was most gratifying to witness the ,
rwhen they saw that the mighty change had been
fected, not without producing considerable
certainly, but without being attended with ,
lar convulsion; but above all it was gratifying to _
that there was such a disposition in the country rouse
paper; so far Were the people from being disposed to
call for gold in preference to paper; so high was the
public credit, that he believed he was correct %Olen),
stated that wherever gold bad been sent to the •
'vines, it had manifested a disposition to retr
That inordinate desire to possess gold, which
been apprehended, was not found to exist, and
in many—in most instances, seemed to be
'He had thought it right to say thus much, in justiF
cation of the Government and the Bank, and in
planation of the circumstances under which it
proposed to make a slight addition to the Unfint,i,
Debt, in order to relieve the agricultural interest,
as issue of Exchequer Bills, to be called in at a sin
notice. He thought it must be seen, that the
nature of the measure was such as to afford a hope
that it would meet the difficulty with effect. If any
man traced 'the course of the exchanges, he wool
see that for some time past such a stream, he mi
say such a torrent of gold had poured in upon
that there was more danger of the exchanges being
unfixed by the momentum of this rapid influx, than
by almost any other circumstance at present to he
anticipated. More gold had come into the c(
than at any former time, and this was the more
markable, seeing the operation this country bad sr
tained with respect to its currency was coinci..
with similar measures in other parts. The general
standard of the world was much above its ordinary
level, and he Would therefore contend, that the mea-
sure now suggested would be most salutary in its ef-
fects, even it the 4,000,0001. of Exchequer Bills came
into general circulation. It would indeed not only
feed the circulation—and it was always to be re-
membered, that this would take place under the con-
troul of our existing gold standard, but it must faci-
litate all the Money transactions of the country, and
especially those •in •which the Government were
likely soon, to be engaged, with a view of reJucing
the Five per Cents. The-measure then would prove
one of relief to the agricultural classes, and do
good in various ways, without -endangering any
one of the, great interests of the country—(lFlear).
The Honourable and Learned Gentleman, on a former
night, had very broadly laid down his positions, that
nothing but a diminution of taxation could relieve the
country, and he had especially called on the House
to set•their faces against any proposition for afford-
ing relief to the agricultural classes by means of a
loan. He (the Marquis of Londonderry) 61 not
mean to contend against the Honourable and Learned
Gentleman that to resort to a loan was consistent
with the ordinary march of affairs in a community
like that of this country. Such a measure was ever
regarded as an exception to the rule and not the rule
itself, and he could only propose to refer to it on the
special merits of the case and not on the general prin-
ciple. He, however, was not so wedded to general
principles, but that in certain cases where great dis-
tress was experienced from depression of the markets,
and other temporary causes, he would be content di-
rectly to resort to a loan where it could be immedi-
ately applied to the relief of the sufferers, under ade-
quate securities for the repayment. Without such se-
curities he could never sanction the advance of a loan.
—lt had been a consideration with Government
whether relief might be afforded by a loan so applied
as to relieve the farmer from bringing his stock pre-
maturely to market. This had been one of the chief
causes of distress : the farmer having had his rent
reduced by his landlord, that the latter might get
something regularly paid, was compelled to take his
stock to market in order to make up his rent, and to
pay the interest or: money borrowed at a time whea
the market was kept down by the mass of produce
thrown- on it from all quarters. In corroboration of
this statement, he could add that the quantity of
corn recently brought to the London market, had
been double what had ever been brought before.—
On due consideration it had not been thought rig':t
to attempt offering that sort of relief to which he
had alluded, but acting on a more limited view it was
thought by Government that considerable advantage
might result from .adopting a measure that would
diminish the local pressure under which the agricul-
turist now, in many instances, laboured. Though it
was difficult to deal with landlords, impossible to
deal with tenants in their individual capacities, yet it
might be practicable to advance sums to parishes on
the credit of the parochial rates, which, advanced to
Chem in their corporate characters, and used for cor-
porate purposes, might be the means of affording re-
lief to all classes. The Government, therefore, would
hot object to employ a laige portion, if not the whole
the'aNinie to be Made, in the way alluded to.—
Right Hon. Friend would, on a future night,
submit a proposition to the House for enabling the
Commissioners of Public Works to' apply relief on a
more extensive scale; by advancing sums to parishes
on the credit of their rates, tobe repaid in four or five
years, not exceeding one • year's assessment—(Hear).
This mode of proceeding would, irthis oßinion, afford
relief, but he should-confess that Ministers Would be
happy if Government could see their way to a more
direct mode of assisting the agriculture of the coun-
try. There was only one other great branch of thit
subject" to Which he had to call the attention of the
House—he meant the system of protecting duties.—
lie had fairly stated in the last Session, that those
he did not oppose the appointment of the Committee,
he could not see his way through it sass to he enabled
to hope digit hi labours would prove benetiedal to the

' - the Fin
• declare)
. lis Full

"--=---: order to estabVsh that, ;Ludt qa-ry ter raise !Tee . . sdratitiblis negoaiation, .• . should atit e execute a very i
not too millions ofaddltional talet. :rah.
.I,ible Ma,: '' ' -
- '.. . . ing Parliament i. i . practicability of
:halm& ogrvede,that it was.in pstriastts wise Otanci ' 1 , lrsight to _I. e t bad been feared
one•ha/f laid *awn In this 'Resolut4ta, t ihiiliajksty's •_, ' s and the :` , n .. .nr eprocured to mee
Ir. The 'nistelilladacte4in all they had' it arefertini - 'We £1,400,000,1. if lt •Id iii r it, the moan
p:t
:Lela or to tW finance at the.sountrvp. ti the statement ht dektion of Par . .. Apply 'to rditilleie. these ch.(
.xtent of was *out to *lke, he should takithe Revenue'if • -oi the country. ailhieent sht4ad i[arignsi. acting now as the
e to the -last year for the basis of hi; calculations, The In, tion to sympathixe with the country, they would nes as to be prepi
Tye this come for 'lB2l was £55,887,000. Adding to this, how. give the whole of it towards the relief of the Public, be'll'ilde at all p
...........1 ewer_ the extraordinaries which. oceurfed daring tht hfiil not didideit4litli the Sinking Fund—(Hear).— reproach. Thouj

merited ~„1
payment
and rhos
ing such d
er than w
is a'ditty
Ave country
temselves to
vied to eva.
had a *tilt
s tne tes*
tad been t•r:
Yle press
any por.
ying to find
orq.ry to use
.disposed to
igh Was the
ea when he
to the pro.'
fl return—
which had
and paper
e preferre.!.
I, in justit:, ,
and in cr,
Web it vat
e Unfun(l,,i
interest, by
in at a short
hat the very
Ford a hope
ect. If any
s, he would
rt, he might
An upon us,
angcs being
influx, th4a
resent to he
the country
he more re-
try had sus-
coincident
The general
its ordinary
rat the mea.
try in its ef-
r Bills came
d not only
s to be re-
der the coa-
t must faci-
3untry, and
iment were
of reJucing
could prcre
es, and do
gering any
ry—( Hear).
on a former
mitinnc. th,r .