Star.
London, England, 1831-07-29 00:00:00

_TNGLIBII ILLEMIIIi BILL.

Lad J. RUSSELL moved that the house resolve into
Committee on the English Reform Bill
Lord BELO R AVE pre-ened a petition from Congleior,
county Che►ter, praying to have Representatives.
Ordered to be referred to Con mime.

Mr. WI LLIA MS presented a similar petition from 1)oi
chester.—Referred to the Committee.

The House then went into Committee on the Bill; 31r.
BERNAL in the.(l4ir.

Tip first motion was that " Clitheroe" stand part of belie.
dale E.

MG CUST wished that the adjoining parishes should be
taken into the calculation, and then it would be entitled to
continue to send two ir embers. He admitted that the nun:.
bee of 101. houses in Clitheroe was not very great.
Mr. CHOKER said he had undetstood that where th !
borough and parish consisted of upwards of 4000, that be.
rough would be excluded from• the schedule ; but if the p.t.
risk were not of the same name with the borough, d.en
the parish was not to be included in the calculation. That
was an afterthought of the noble lord, but that was to be
the principle now, and it was said expressly that k excluded
Clitheroe. He admitted that Clitherot was &singular case.
Its inhabitants were 3,200, but if the parish west included,
it would extend over 12 or 14 miles, and included 80 or 00
thousand inhabitants. He thought it would be bsconsts-
tent with the noble lord's principle to drafranaidee, M WS*
argaimuideb
Clitheroe. He wee net now fee rotten
st,
largeebboarr lgr;i4ellose a
ofretEe bill to this was
a "111 that it
would extend the franchise tea populous place, w Me
parish of Wayiey was. He, at the same dew, eekaewled-
ged, that if this case were recogahed, it would extend to
i three other inelancea—Cutiterromith, Heiman, and Lyming-
ton. Why ought not such results to be allowed, as large pu-
politicos were to be admitted? To admit the case of CP.
theroe would be of peat benefit to the bill, it would recon-
cile thtirblie to the cases of Caine and Knaresborough.
He the noble lord would not reject his aid to improve
the be now of his ' little all' and he hoped that
his poverty would not be deemed &fault
Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that he had never Wei
down the principle that the parish should be included with
the borough, and that as cases had been exempted from the
rule as to 2000 or 4000, this was a proposition to extend
the exception still farther. He could not approve of the
propo•ition. As to Heletone, he. the returning °Seen
stated that the borough had nothing to do with the surround-
Ing ruttish.
Mr. KNIGHT said, bed the parish been called Chit..
roe instead of Walley, tills case woad never have appeared
in the schedule. But in the parish of Walley there was
the chapeiry of Clitheresole that there was the same; how
then could they resist the application of the principle to this
case? He said that be was glebe the statement on autho.
city that he believed to be true, wed be would give to fur-
ther answer to the, question.
The CHAIRMAN called the honied gent. to ardor, and -1 •
set him down.
An lion. MEMBER roes to *apish of the conduct of
the learned gent. He said that he had been a abort member
of this house, be meant to say, that be had been a short
time a member—
The CHAIRMAN called him to order.
Mr. KNIGHT resumed; sod mounded to declare his
authdhapprobation of the measure, sal his refusal to give up his
ority.
Mr. bTANLEY ridiculed the wades* at the lemma
gent, and said that Übe metre hag a mobs, of this house
be would leads that beim' high be angteatabilley and ter.
lent it was not me ens-" as ad amcoanesos .le
ask a member hi Ids an . The right ben, ninn,bir
then proceeded Iliad, die ataiiineima al, Me lantaml
gentleman, sad *at abs dilmtammant dammeeem
ought net to be 4 dm alsisammat' she harmed
genietilla•
air C. WITHER/MIL said, that although abs right
has. (=dimes had pinhead the anthentiemal donenteats

he had not thrown • at his 'tarred friend in his argumeut.
He thought that th, honed gentleman, who had only spoken
twice in that hnuse, had been limn hardly dealt with than
usual for so young a member. The learned baronet then
proceeded say, that in not going to the pariah for the popu-
lation necessary to q.alify the borough of Clitheroe, that
the government were acting with the utmost inconsistency;
mat they had drawn an arbitrary line which they called an
ere- .iardical botindare, and the reason assigned was a very
shi:litlar one they gni.] that the parish was fro large ; and
t.- • they called pri-.4:ple. The one time they refused to
v the population to a borough because it stood in two
aita es; but here was a case of one perish, and they re.
tas. .; because the population was ton large. It appeared
wise that the herttugh must have the same name as the
palish; if they meant to lay down this as a principle it was
het no schoolboy would stoop to argue against. This
such fiddling, such quibbling, such gaseonading,
t •from the opposition.) such emptiness, (hear, hear,)
• noihingness, (hear. hear.) such fiddling over the
e.0.m., (hear, hear) such fiddling on a broken fiddle
hear,) such mountehmk lgishition—(hear, hear,)
; t it ight do for a reformed telrliament. hut it could not do
tar this house. (Order, amt order. from the Chair.) The
ric'et hen. secretary Setniey)etemed to presume a good
dues tet his office, and rather exceeded his place—(Cries of
Chni, r. order)—he was up. and speaking on the question,
•rrogated to himself, as it were, the office of Attorney.
General for the opposite side, to expound the law. Mbytes
from the Opposition) He would c ill upon the right hon.
member, as Attorney-General, to say, he who was bound to
etc the law properly explained, if this was any thing like
law. To say that you cannot have the population front two
parishes, because they were not one, and then to be told that
you cannot have the population from one parish because it
war not two. Ile would not insult his own reflection by
vetirg for the bill, involved as it was in absurdities.
Mr. CUST explained.
Mr. STANLEY said that the learned hart. had made a
charge against that side of the house of fiddling and mounte-
banking. He was sure that Paganini himself was not a
rea ter adept in the art of harping on one idling then the
bon and leaned bare He had upbraided hint (Mr. Stanley)
witn getting up on every question. and assuming to himself,
as it were, the duties of Attorney-General. He could say,
that if he had been appointed to that office, he would have
been very ill qualified; but he thought that the right hon.
hart, affotded an instance, that if verbosity, endless garrulity,
continually repeating the same thing over and over again in
a thousand shapes, was a qualification for that office, he was
n striking example that a learned gentleman might retain
his qualifications long after he had ceased to hold that office.
The learned bare was often very amusing, although at times
rather lengthily so. He did not know how near that might
approach to mountebanking. (Laughter.) He concluded
with saying, that it was absurd to say that in this case to go
t,) the parish was to extend the franchise, where the
elfish consisted of 87,000.
el r. PRA Ef) made a few observations.
Lord J. RUSSELL gave a brief explanation, and al.
hided to the node in which the Hon. and Learned Barenet
l.rought forward his objections, and his frequent interroga-
tories of, what would the Noble Lord say to this, and what
would he sac to that. He (Lord J. Russell) thought the
people would attribute the conduct of the Learned Baronet
.0 its proper source ; that the interrogatories, and the ob-
stacles opposed by the Hon. and Learned Baronet were
merely for the purpose of vexatious delay, and to gain time
by procrastination. (Loud cries of Question.)
Sir C. 's% F.TH KR ELL said that be was still ready to
sesert that tie tight hon. secretary had presumed beyond his
• !lice, tl.at he indulged in a fondness for school-boy sae.
.scat, and personal attack on the hon. members on that side
of the house. (Cries of question.) lie talked of losing
temper, but no one seemed more out of temper, or out of place,
t •an himself. (Cries of question, question.) He seemed
q ite intoxicated with his preferment. (A member from the
sale gallery vociferated Question, question.) Sir C. We-
t .•rell locking up at him very sternly, and in an elevated
tore, pointing at him, said, an hon. member on that side
c.tiis out Question, question, but dote he think that I will
b..ffer any une to attack rue in this house, and not defend
tuysclii An hon. member on the other side had on a former
occasion talked of the Ajax flagellator, hut it was one thing
to have ti e will to whip, and another thing to have the
strength—(loud cheers from the opposition); —a man
height be a flagellator and yet not an Ajax ; and he (Sir C.
Wetherell) could tell the right hon. secretary that, although
was a flagellator be was no Ajax. [This sentence ex-
ceed great amusement, and occasioned continued laughter,
on account of the emphatic manner with which it was de.
livered, and accompanied by a kind of isalf-threwening, half.
defying, menacing motion with the clenched fist, by Sir C.
IVethetell, wirch he repeated half.a-dozen times, amidst the
cheers of hi. friends and the laughter of the ministerial
benches.] The learned baronet complained of the repeated
attacks that had been made upon him by the honourable
tweretuy, but said that they would never stop him from
goeng his opinion. The noble lord had enqui.ed what
tile people of England would say to his conduct: be had
given his opinions, and they had gone forth to the people
of England ; and he could tell the noble lord, that so far
from the people of England having been displeased, that
ti.t:y had often applied to him. (Hear, bear, was bawled by
a siugle voice with most stentorian lungs, from under the
gallery on the Opposition side. The effect was tremendous
—;the house was altogether convulsed with laughter, and it
was some time before Sir C. Wetherell could proceed. And
when quietness was again restored, and he attempted to pro-
ceed, the loud cry of hear, hear, hear, was again introduced
by the same voice—the burst of laughter was renewed with
recreased force. This occurred many times. The house
was a scene of unrestrained mirth. The cry was then
changed to that of Order, order; and this the single voice
took up in the same comic strain, and equally loud, which
he repeated as many times as the other, and was each
time followed with as hearty a peal of laughter. Then
followed cries of Chair, chair, which were treated by
the single voice in the same manner, and met with the same
reception. This singular and amusing scene lasted a con-
siderable time, and alter the cause had ceased, it seemed to
be no easy task to restore to sufficient gravity the Hon.
Members to suffer the Learned Baronet to proceed.) He
resumed by saying that he was addressing himself to the
people of England, as well as the Noble Lord—they were
both appealing to the people. He (Sir C. Wetherell) was
addressing himself to their common sense when he opposed
the bill. The Noble Lord was a candidate for democratic
popularity, but he was not a candidate for democratic popu-
larity ; he was a candidate for public approbation, but he
was opposed to opening the flocd-gates to democratic pre-
pondetance. (Cries of Question, question.)
Sir G. MURRAY made a few observations amidst loud
cries of Question.

Mr. PitA ED said, that although they might seem to
have been long employed in debate, they had not been long
on the point immediately before the House.—(Cries of
Question, question) He made a few remarks on the at.
tack made by :11r. Stanley, and said he was frequently guilty
of wandering from the question under discussion.—(Cries of
Question, question) He had a question to put, which he
was determined to do before he bat down. He would call
upon the Noble Lord to answer whether or not they bad
acted upon the principle of reporting the inictination that
had been sent regarding the population of the borough and
its relations to the Home Office, or that they had been
actuated by rejecting the parochial cbapelry.
Lord J. RUSSELL rose amidst loud calls for question,
and replied. that it was as uncommon question to be put in
committee, and he thought would he admitting a bad prece.
dent. (The cries of question were renewed.)
Mr. PRA ED said, he had a right to put the question,
and he would nor be prevented torn exercising that preroga-
tive as a representative in that house. (Question.)
Lord ALTHORP gave a sheet reply to the lion. man.
Ixr, and said, that they had never adopted that line pre.
scribed by the hon. member.
Sir C. VI ET HE HELL rose amidst tumultuous calls for
q..estion. lie repeated his arguments regarding the state
of the parish. [Alderman Wood called out hear, hear,
which brought down a testy philippic on him from the bon. '
bat. tor his sitting on the opposition side, and so often
tailing out hear, bear, when hen. members were speaking.
The philippic cussed another laugh.] He wished the real
stair of the parish and borough to go forth to the public,
tend:see what the people of England would say to the noble
lord ftw disfranchising the borough of one member.
Mr. PR AED again rose amidst renewed cries of question,
end said that he lied not sufficiently understood the explana-
tion. (A laugh.) The noble lord had not answered the
question explicitly, and he (Mr. Praed)
,would have the
Noble lord to say " Yes or No," whether they had acted
upon rejecting the information, or in refusing the chapelry.
Lord ALTHORP regretted that the Hon. Member had
not obtsinedthe answer he required ; but his Lordship had
no doubt that it bad been owing to his not speaking suffi-
etently distinct, and not to the Hon. Member's want of
understanding. (A laugh.) His Lordship. then repeated
that they bad in no instance adopted that sort of dirisiosof
the population. (Cries of question.)
Mr. -CHOKER then roes, and m if addressing the gallery,

in an elevated tone said, the parish is to be rejected because
it is large, and has no connection with the borough ; and the
parochial chapelry is rejected because it is connected with
the borough, and has no connection with the parish.
Mr. KNIGHT rose amidst loud cries o{ question, and
made a few ironical remarks on Mr. Stanley, and said that
his conduct only confirmed the abhorrence he entertained of
the measures of the Cabinet to which he belonged.
The question was then put amidst great confusion, and
was carried without a division.
On the motion that Cockermouth stand part of the
schedule,

Sir J. SCAR LETT said he considered the rule to be, that
when a borough, together with its parish, contained upwards
of 2000 or 4000 inhabitants, it was to retain its represents- '
tion. He could name three places, Northallaton, Morpeth,
and a third, which thus retained their representatives, though
the boroughs were distinguished from the parishes in the po-
pulation return of 1831. Cockermouth, with its parish of
Bigham, contained upwards of 4000 inhabitants. It WAS
superior, both in population and number of 101. house-
holders, to the three places he had mentioned, and he there-
fore, could see no reason for its being removed from schedule
B, unless the fact of Cockermouth bearing a different name
from the parish in which it was situated were one, which, in
his htmble judgment, it was nor. (Hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL said the sole reason was the popula-
tion return. In that return tne borough of Cockermouth
was separated from the parish.
After a few woria from an Hon. Mason,
Mr. BERRIES said Ditton was refused a junction with
its parish, on the snle ground of the pepulation of the latter
being too scattered. This objection did not apply to the
proem case. The only objection could be with respect to
the difference in the name.

Mr. BARING said it would be as absurd to separate
Cockermouth from its parish because of a name, as it would
he to separate the City of 11-estminster from that part which
went by the name of Savoy. This was a stronger case than
that of Sabah. The union between Saltash and St. Ste-
phens was only eeclesiutical, whereas, in the present case,
the union existed in every respect.
Lord A LTHOR P said there was not only here a separate
vicarage, but also separate parochial assessments. Thechurcb
of Bigharn was four miles distant from Cockermouth. The
assessments in the ease of Saltash and St. Stephens were not
separated.
Air. CHOKER said the vote wit% respect to Cocker.
mouth and the pari‘h in the return of 1821 stood thus : bo-
rough of Cockermouth 3790 inhabitants, added to the inha.
bitants of the parish of Bigham, the total forms 6,028.
The vote in the eases of Horsham and Caine was precisely
the same. The return, therefore, united the borough and
the parish in the present case in he same manner as in the
two cases of Horsham and Caine.

Mr. IILA3IIRE had a local knowledge of Bingham. It
contair.ed thirteen townships, of which Cockermouth was
one. The limits of the borough were perfectly distinct.
Mr. BARING explained.
Af.er a few words from Mr. AvrwooD and Lord
ALTIIORP,
Mr. C. FERGUSON said a vast deal of the time of the
House had been wasted in considering whether Govern.
ment had decided right in other cases. It was immaterial
to him how Horsham and the other places had been dis-
posed of ; Cockermouth was below 4000 Inhabitants, and
therefore he should vote for its remaining in schedule B. If
Hon. Members moved that the places to which they had al-
luded should be included in schedule B, he should that
listen to their arguments.
Sir R. PEEL could assure the Hon. Gentleman he
would rot waste the time of the House. When the facts
adduced in the case of Chippenham had proved to the sails.
faction of every man and of the House—(cries of No I and
Hear !)—would Hon. Members allow him to finish his
sentence before they cried No ! When the facts of the cue
of Chippenham had proved to the satisfaction of the House
that no reliance could be placed in the population return,
160 houses being proved to have been omitted in that re-
turn, the Ministerial majority had still refused to grant a
delay for the purpose of investigating how the omission had
occured. From that moment he (Sir R. P.) saw that in no
case, however strong, was justice to be expected--(cheers)--
and he would therefore trouble the House with no details on
the present schedule.—(Loud cheers from the Opposition.)
Mr. HUNT regretted the right hon. baronet and oppoai-
tion had not followed his advice sooner. (A laugh.) He
deprecated a plan proposing that a rotten borough should
be a nucleus round which to collect independent electors.
He hoped to see Schedule B entirely sent to the right-about.
After a few words from Mr. BAILING, Mr. FERGUSOIf,
and Mr. HUNT,

- -
The Committee divided—
Ayes 233
Noes ••. 181

Majority for Ministers.......... 83
On the motion that I)orcbestcr form part of Schedule 13,
Lord ASHLEY said Dorchester contained 600 electors,
of whom 300 were resident, and 333 101. houses. He un-
denitood the principle of government to be a mixture of po.
potation and property. If in Downton and St. Gamains
they departed from the strict line of population, because
the constituency was not sufficient, surely they might de-
part front it when the constituency was greater than required.
(Hear, hear.) Fordington was as much a part of Dorches-
ter as hlarylebone was of London. The surrounding coun-
try was open there was no rural population. He would
propose, then, that these two places should be joined.
Their conjoint population exceeded, in 1821, 4000. He
would remind them that Deal and Sandwich were joined in
a similar manner. Penryn bad even been joined to a place
three miles dist.nr. Dorchester was not a nomination bo-
rough. The majority of the electors were gentlemen of
property residing within the borough. His father had assured
him on his word of honour that during two elections which
he lied. sustained in the borough not one bribe was given.—
He (Lord A.) was now the representative, and never had he
been asked a favour. Six boroughs had retained two mem-
bers, which were below Dorchester by sixty 101. houses.
He would be accused of having some base motive in defend-
ing Dorchester • but he assured the house it would be un-
justly, for he defended Its constituency only for their Inde-
pendence and high character.
Lord ALTHORP said, the noble lord was the last man
whom he (Lord Alrhorp) would accuse of base motives.
The principle of government was only so far of a mixed na.l
tare, that population decided the place for which the election
should be made, and property the inhabitants who should
form the constituency. In the two cases alluded to by the
noble lord, the places were large and populous, whereas
Fordingtou was not of that description, according to the
noble lord's own statement. The noble lord said that Dor.
cheater was rot a nomination borough; but he (Lord Al-
thorp) had never said that the boroughs in schedule B were
nomination boroughs. Many were not; and when the new
constituency was called in, be trusted none would be. An
exception with respect to Dorchester would make it difficult
not to make many other exceptions.
After a few words from Mr. WILLIA 318,
Sir G. WARRENDER said, he would cite five or six
places which retained their full representation, though in.
laity in their number of voters to Dorchester. He had re-
presented Sandwich in two Parliaments, and from his own
knowledge of the borough, could state, that from having
1,000 electors, as at present, it would, the Bill, be-
come a snug nomination borough. The same would be the
case with many other boroughs in schedule B, which, he
thought, would be the death of the Bill. (Hear.) He
pledged himself that if be should be 'returned to mother
Parliament he would attack the nomination boroughs. He
knew the public were with Ministers in the disfanchisement
of nomination boroughs ; but the case was different when
they disfranchised from 400 to 1,000 electors who had exer-
cised their constitutional rights with integrity and indopen.
ence, to turn them into nomination buroughs.—(Hear,
bear.) In the ease of Dorchester, there were 333 lode.
pendent electors—it by no means partook of the character of
a nomination borough, and he thought it ought to be with-
drawn from Schedule B.—(Hear.)
Mr. G. BA MIES said that the house had heard both the
hon. members for Dorchester, and he thought there were no
two members in the house they would be less willing to part
with. (Hear.) Be thought no stronger case could be made
out against the disfranchisement of the schedule, than that
by its operation one of two such members would be lost to
the house. He thought such a borough ought not to be dis-
franchised. (Hear.)
Sir R. PEEL thought there was sufficient ground for
uniting the population of Fordington with that of Dorchester,
and taking Dorchester out of schedule B.
Mr. JOHN STANLEY thought concession on the part
of ministers had only the effect of leading to farther claims,
and that it was highly expedient the should adhere to the
role laid down, according to which should remain
In schedule B.
Mr. BARING said that the haikof Major Cartwright's
head would have stood on sod If he thought that the
Ministers of the Crown could bring down to the House a
plan for disfranchising * county towns of Baglend.—
(Cheers, and laughter.)

. The ATTORNEY.OENERA L said it was dillieult to
know whether to answer or not to answer the objection of
the opponents of the Bill. If they answered them they were
to a certain extent playing the game of their adversaries,
which was delay ; and if they did not answer, they were
complained of and taunted as not being able to support their
measure by argument. Besides, when they answered they
were interrupted by cheers before half the argument was
hard ; and this by the expiring Parliament, whose horror
et their successors was that they would be deficient in good
mannnera.—(Hear, hear.) He could see no reason for
taking Dorchester out of the schedule B, and he was sorry
that Ministers had in any instance made an exception to
their own rule in the case of any borough, which was the
pose of all the long speeches that were now inflicted on the
House. The House should remember, that all those who
wanted to take Dorchester out of schedule B were the op-
ponents of the Dill—(lieer.)
Sir GEORGE WARRENDER said, he thought the
people of England were under a delusion in supporting the
present bill. The statesmen of Europe were looking to it
with fearful apprehension lest it should be the shipwreck of
all hope of good government for the world. (Cheers and
laughter.)
Lord JOHN RUSSELL begged the house to consider
that the present question was, whether Dorchester should
have one or two members. He thought no case had been
made cut for taking Dorchester out of schedule B. (Hear.)
Mr. CROKER said, Dorchester, including the liberty of
Fentlington, was clearly entitled to retain both its repre-
sentatives. (Hear.)
Mr. HUNT said he had heard a doctrine that evening
which he should never hear without expressing his dissent—
namely that the placeoten should have Feats in that house.
By the act of Settlement, which was not repealed, though it
was eternally violated, no person holding any office under
the Crown should sit in that house ; and this was still the
law, though violated by a fiction of that house. The Hon.
Gentleman near him said Major Cartwright's hair would
stand on end at the present bill. He could assure the Hon.
Gentleman it would have no such effect . • in the first place
because the Major had no hair—(a laugh) ; and in the next
place the Major, would not be shocked at seeing all who paid
taxes admitted to vete ; nor at any approach to that favourite
measure. Dorchester was a respectable county town, and
he was sure its disfranchisement would cause great dissatis-
faction. (Hear.)
The Committee divided.
For the resolution . . . 279

Againn it

. . . . "3

Majority for Ministers . . 86
The next resolution was, that the borough of Droitwieh
stand part of schedule B.—Agreed to.
The question was then put, that the borough of Evesitam
do stand part of schedule H.
After a few words from Mr. C. Pelham, Sir C. Coe.
kerell, and Mr. Hudson, Evcslutm was declared part of the
clause.

The CHAIRMAN next put the question, that Great
Grimsby stand part of the clause.
Mr. SHELLEY, one of the representatives of the bo-
rough, said, at that late hour of the night, and against the
feelings of the house, he should urge nothing against the
question.
Captain HARRIS opposed the motion. He was of opi-
nion that the great advantage the port of Great Grimsby was
to the Customs of the country, was of itself a sufficient rea-
son why it should not be included in schedule B. No less
a sum than 30,9731. from the month of June 1821, to Ja-
nury of the following year, had been paid into the Exche-
quer from that port.
Colonel SIBTH OR PE opposed the motion.
Mr. TREVOR. protested against such a system of uncon-
scionable devastation.--(A laugh.)
After a few words from Mr. C. Pelham, Captain Harris,
Sir J. Doyle, and Mr. Pelham, the question was put and
carried in the affirmative.

Alter a desultory conversation between several hon. mem.
ben, the substance of which did not reach the Gallery,
The CH AIRMAN reported progress, with leave to sit
again this day.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Two o'Clock.