Star.
London, England, 1830-12-10 00:00:00

/ALARMS OT THI MHZ/TIT.

Lord ALTHORP rose, persuant to notice, to move fora Committee.
He did not anticipate that there would be any opposition to his motion,
when be had explained the purposes and the principle upon which be
proposed that a Committee should be appointed. The present Govern.
meat had set out with avowed professions of economy and retrenchment;
but it would be placing them in a delicate situation to require them to
decide upon their own salaries, on which account he moved for a Com.
mittee of the House, to convince the country that it was the honest inten-
tion of the Government to show an example in themselves, by submitting
their own salaries for consideration, to be reduced. He would remark,
however, that it might be indiscreet to
di it
reduction in this depart-
ment to such an extent as to render it chfficult to obtain as many persons
as were necessary to fill the ollices--unless persons of large fortunes.
Economy became, as it were, a secondary consideration where really
important services were required lobe discharged. This it would be for
the Committee to consider. Economy was what the country called for I but
the country could not expect that any great retrenchment could be effected
by the reductions in high offices of state; but Ministers were nevertheless
determined to show the first example. The Noble Lord then stated that
from the Conuniuee should he excluded every member who in any way
was under the Government, and when We was stated he was convinced
that there could be no objection to the measure. The noble hied con.
eluded with moving for the appointment of a Select Committee, to in.
quire into what reductions can be made in all salaries and emoluments
of offices held dur ng the pleasure of the Crown, by walabsts Ist *lase
house of parliament, and to report their opinion, and 0011411•5 ahem
from to the house.

Mr. BANSES said that when no great reduction was to be expected
in that quarter, be thought that ministers, having set out upon princi-
ples of econom, might be expected to act otherwise in another quar-
ter. He would allude to a question that had been put a few nights
back. and which bad not yet been answered. If it was the intention of
the government to remove from office Sir Anthony Hart, the present
Lad Chancellor of Ireland ? He (Mr. Banks) knew that it was im-
portant for the good government of Ireland, that the person holding the
seals of that country should have the full confidence and correspondence
of the government of this country. But it was with regret that he ob.
served, that for a political purpose, those principles of economy which
Ministers had professed should be changed, and the country be bur-
thened with another retiring pension.
Mr. G. DAWSON said, that besides the retirement of Sir Anthony
Hart for political purposes, he (Mr. Dawson) was informed that a
Chief Judge was to be removed for the same reason, who was as capable
as any man for the duties of his office, so that the country would be
burdened with two pensions. It had not yet been stated to the house
what was the intention of government regarding the retiring pensions,
and certainly the Chancellor of the Exchequer, being the responsible
minister in that department, was the fittest person to Inform the house;
and when the noble lord spoke to the house, of retrenchment, he was cer-
tainly bound to give some explanation, and he (Mr. D.) thought it re.
quired a satisfactory answer.
Lord ALTHORP rose and stated that with regard to the two ques-
tions, he had to reply to the first, relating to the Lord Chancellor of Ire-
land, and to state that no removal had taken place ; with regard to the Chief
Baron, that he was about to retire; but that was no act of the Govern.
ment, that it was his own choice, and that he had filled the situation
for 26 years. The noble lord denied that the Government had made
any professional appointments for their political friends, excepting that
of the Lord Chancellor. But with regard to the Lord Chancellorship
of Ireland it bad, up to the appointment of Sir A. Hart, been considered
a political appointment, and it was still necessary that it should be a
political office.
Mr. H. SUMNER said, that as the Government appointed the mem-
bers of the committee, and would no doubt take care to put their friends
in a majority, they would be responsible for its acts.
Mr. D. W. HARVEY said, that if he thought it was the object to
propose a cotninittee composed of their friends, there was no one who
would have objected with more readiness than himself; but the spirit
which had directed the formation of the committee was ate which would
reach through the country ; it would be received as an earnest of prat.
deal reform. In one thing he did not agree with the noble lord ; it was
when he said that a great financial benefit might not be expected from
retrenchment. When he looked to that invidious return lately made to
the house, in which it appeared that the total of the salaries of front
1,000 to 10,000 equalled 2,000.0001. exceeding one-seventh of the an-
nual expenditure of the country, apart from the payment of the interest
of the national debt ; when he looked to the nominal offices, which
many of the salaries represented, he could notexpect less from an haw
committee than a saving of 1,000,0001. per annum. There was another
list, containing from the 2001. to the 1,0001. salaries, which would also
offer a rich source of saving. With respect to the office of Chancellor,
he wished the Equity Judges were made as unchangeable as those of the
common law. - - _ _ _ _

Mr. H. TWISS said that he had always hoped, though economy had
been carried in the last two years to as great an extent as the times
would allow, that there would still remain the means of retrenchment.
The Government, in making their present proposition, especially thus
early, when they were unshackled by private engagements, had done a
great service to the country. Above all, the public mind would now
be disabused with respect to political remuneration, and something like
a standard would be established to which, on future occasions, refer-
ence might be made, if ever the present unfortunate prejudices were to
recur. He rejoiced that the Government had delegated toa Committee
a duty which if any great reduction was to be effected, a new Govern-
ment could not have fulfilled without exciting feelings of ill-will.
Lord J. RUSSELL trusted that when the arrangements of Govern-
ment were fully established, the economy introduced into the Govern-
anent of Ireland would be apparent. With respect to one subject to
which the hon. member who had last spoke had alluded, he thought
that it was not in the power of a committee, nor in that of the house,
when it required retrenchment, to give full satisfaction to the public
mind; as long as the great proportion of that house did not arrive there
by a popular election, there would exist suspicions with respect to its
motives. Until there was a solid, substantial, and at the same time
temperate reform of that House, they could not allay the fenncat which
existed on the subject of public appointments (hear.)
Mr. K. DOUGLAS said, that though an advocate for reasonable
retrenchment, he thought that the only permanent relief was :to be
found in an augmentation of the productive industry. He was an
advocate for retrenchment; but not to pay efficiently the public ser-
vices, was not the way to secure efficient men. He approved of the
appointment of the Committee.
Mr. JEPHSON said that the change which was about to take place
in Ireland would be most unpopular.
Sir F. BURDETT said, that he did not think there ever had been
an administration which, in so short a time, had made so many amis.
factory promises, and given such earnest of their intentions to fulfil
them. He weed with an bon. member, that public servants should be
well paid, and that men of talents should have an interest in serving the
public. The present administration, however, stood on the ground of
retrenchment, and they should proceed in it as far as possible. With
respect to the present administration itself, it had his support; they
had no longer a party administration, at one composed of an unnatural
coalition, but an administration selected for their talents and for their
cordial concurrence in a new and beneficial system. There was
only one regret which he experienced. and that was, that an ho-
nourable baronet opposite was not included in it. With a liberal
sovereign, and an able administration, there was no reason to
despair ; there was reason to hope, on the contrary, that all the
present evils would be speedily alleviated, and, with time, altogether
retrieved.

Mr. GOULBURN, after expressing his concurrence with the hon.
Baronet in the opinion that public servants should be fairly paid, stated
that when a Member of the Administrades he had endeavoured to
bring forward what be thought salutary measure; and that now he
was prepared, without ceasing, to mambo vigilantly the measures of a
Government to some of the general principles of which he was strongly
opposed, to give his support to such of their propositions as he thought
beneficial. He concurred in the motion 'foe a Committee.
Mt- LITTLETON said, that if any thing could surpass the plea-
sure which he had felt at the manly conduct of the Chancellor of the
Exchequer, it was that which he had just experienced at the gentle.
manly declaration of the right hon. member. With respect to the
Administration of Ireland, the appointment of Lord Plunkett met
his fullest approbation.
Lord VALLETORT concurred in the motion for a Committee.
Sir E. SUODEN said, that as the Lord Chancellor of Ireland bad
not been appointed by the late Administration, but by Mr. Canning, it
was matter of surprise to him, when he looked at the manner In which
the present Government was constituted, that he should have been die.
placed without any allegation of unfitness. When a Government,
which made such professions of economy, began by making pensions of
4,0001. and 3,0001. to learned Judges, he hoped some more substantial
reasons than any yet given would be offered.

Lord PALMERSTON expressed his admiration of the Learned
Gentleman's (Sir E. Sugden's) abilities; but he thought it was rather
hard to answer a speech so decidedly without having beard it, to reply to
and condemn arrangements which he had not heard. (Cheers.) With
respect to the complaint about the Lord Chancellor of Ireland,
he thought it was perfectly consistent, as the Government
must necessarily have considerable communications, that a person
should be appointed in whom the Government had the fullest confi-
dence. He could not but here express his satisfaction at the manner in
which his noble friend's sentiments bad been received generally. He
hence inferred that the Ministers bad the confidence of the house. They
had succeeded to office at a time of
pre:Lir difficulties; and it was
therefore gratifying to know that the la and measures of the go-
vernment, as far as they were known, bad experienced the apptobation
of the house : he also trusted that they would merit and have the sanc-
tion of the country. He might be excused for adding, that it was only
so long as they had the confidence of the house and of the country,
that they desired to retain their places. (Hear.)

_ .
Mr. CALC RAFT said, it would be insincere in him if he did not
say, if there were the opportunity of getting the services of the noble
and learned lord, they ought to be secured for the public. Not to se-
cure them, if there wets the opportunity, would be in some degree cal-
pable, especially as it was intimated that the new law appointments
would be followed by savings. The noble lord (Palmerston) observed
that the ministers had succeeded to office in times of very great diScul-
ties. It certainly was true that affairs were not quite so smooth—(c
laugh and hear)—as it might be wished that they should be ; but at the
same time the noble lord ought to remember that they succeeded to
office in times peculiarly favourable to the carrying into effect the
measures and principles they contemplated. (Hear, hear hear.).—
That was the truth, and how much would that favourable feeling aid
the frovernmonti! Had there for instance, ever been so strong a feeling 1
in favour of reform; did any man recollect any thing like it in this'.
country ? It had laid a decided hold of the country. He would just
add, that be would cheerfully support the government where he could;
at the same time he should not hesitate to oppose them, if he disap-
proved of any of their =insures. With respect to the contemplated
savings, he agreed with the sentiment of the hon. member for West.
minute (Sir F. Burdett), that there were cuttings down and parings
which were not called for by the country, namely, of the salaries of the
minor persons In the government offices i the reduction he admitted,
I ought to be extended to the larger offices. The great salaries were
the salaries that ought to be reduced. He should be sorry 'to
be on the committee—at the same time, he thought none of those who
were in the enjoyment of large salaries ought to be *cod en such com-
mince. 'l'hat committee, he trusted, would not visit the subordinate
offices with too much severity. He had seen suennit of Mee to know
that there were many clerks who were by no embia los well paid;
many of their salaries were small, really hardly agleam ihe eleeltef
living. Let it be remetnbered, that he was now sposkres it the sub.
ordinate clerks only.
Mr. OEOROE DAMEN said, it was curious enough, that Si;
A. Hut had been appointed by a ministry of width Lord Plonked,

and some of the present ministers, formed a part. What had Sir A.
done to forfeit confidence ? There was to be the same Lord Lieutensi .
who was in Ireland when Sir A. Hart was appointed, and ytt
they were the same men, Sir A. Hart was to be removed. There vier'
to be savings—was Sir A. Hart against them ? Had nit A. Ilan
tried ? If he acceded, then there would be a still greater saving, a„
ditional saving of 4,0001. a year. At present he saw no subject for
gratulation; as yet there was neither explanation nor pretext to jo,ti,„
the removal of Sir A. Hart and the appointment of Lord Plunkeit '
Colonel SI BTHORP said, before the motion was put he wish
to ask some questions of the noble lord. He wished to learn %ll
ther the office of Comptroller of the Navy had been filled up ? Al'
whether the Second Clerk to the Council had been appointed
whether there were to be a new Ambassador at Vienna, at a
cam,
of 12,0001. a year, with an outfit ? His eonstituents wished to ,4
the public servants well paid—but they desired that money should
be squandered on those who rendered no public services.
Lord A LTHORP replied, that as to the first question, he coul.l no.
at present answer It. With respect to the second- question, the yeies,'
pleasure for the appointment of Mr. Bathurst Second Clerk of the
Council had been taken ; that appointment, therefore, was not owe by
the present ministers, but by their predecessors in office. The wily
thing that the present could do was to reduce the salary ; it had be
reduced front 2,0001, to 1,2001. As to the third question he had ;,.
reply that there was to be no change of ambassador at Vienna ; i!,.„
would be the same ambassador and the same salary.
Mr, GOULBURN begged to observe that though the appointmat
took place under the late administration, it sou their intention to ha„,
reduced the salary, and they would have done so under arrangenun..
that would have been beneficial to the country.
Mr. R. COLBURN thought that offices where there were efficient
services ought not to be underpaid ; but as to sinecures they oupt rot
to be regulated but abolished.
Mr. LABOUCHERE wished to repeat a question put on a forme
evening to the late Chancellor of the Exchequer, whether the pension•
had not been granted by the late Ministers after they had virtually re
signed their offices ?
Mr. HOULBURN said the question had been very unnecessarily
put ; there was a return on the table that would give the answer.
The pensions in question were dated, it would be seen, on the 16:h of
November.

Mr. O'CONNELL said, with reference to the law appointmetts
in -Ireland—where, unfortunately, all Judges were made political dr.
racters—he would not express any opinion. He would wait till they
were completed.
Mr. JOHNSON trusted that the Ministers would act on the priced.
plea they had avowed.
The motion was then agreed to, and the Committee appointed.
The following were of the Committee :—Lord Althorp, Mr. Gout.
burn, Sir Henry Parnell, Sir Charles Wetherell, Mr. Lanky,
Sir R. Vivian, Mr. Irvine, Sir J. Newport, Sir Robert Pei,,
Mr. Hanka Sir G. Warrender, the Marquis of Chandos, Sir H. Bur.
bury, Mr. Baring, Mr. Hume, Mr. Kennedy, &c.
The Committee to have power to send for persons, papers, and re.
cords ; and five to be a quorum.
Mr. HODGSON moved for various returns of persons who had
taken up their freedoms in Reading and several other boroughs, to as.
certain the expense of Stamp Duty; but after extended consecution
as to the difficulty of making out the return, the motion was with.
drawn.