Star.
London, England, 1822-07-24 00:00:00

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prove ttet, thotight Ids (the told
opinion clashed with that of his
they were both actuated by pure
vi answer
then such ample means of gig _
statement of the Honourable Member, he felt
ranted in complaining that no intimation was gi
that it was intended to bring forward such 'chat
A Message from the Lords here announced their Lordships'
He cared not for himielf, but'
va
' alsfsarobalsigd to y
ceoncersna, The ed Petition wat
Mr. Hope and Mr. Menzies, h
tithieatmtbheerr,enotwas,
only i na
disregardi lte course
to
cpoumr s
mu eodn
cboya
rtthees
yH,
bouts; . assent to several Mlle.
an indifference to the stricter laws of justice: He was
not now raising the question upon the Hon. Mem-
ber's right to meet this subject in Parliament—that
he would not deny. But where the whole inquiry
turned upon facts—mere facts, which a later in
iguiry would either disprove or confirm, he thought
that the Mends of these Gentlemen should have had
some previous intimation, and the effect of a first
unjust impression be neutralized. The'Learned Lord
then went on to complain, that even in the mode of
giving notice of the motion, there was a want .
candour. The notice was worded as if it was to
apply to the conduct of the Lord Advocate only,
and the press of Scotland, but when it came to be
detailed, it then appeared to be a studied attack droll
the whole Bar of Scotland. It was this want of can-
dour which placed him (the Lord Advocate) in the
unpleasant situation of being obliged to listen to
charges made against his friends n ittiouk being able
to refute them, for he was at the time ignorant of
the facts of BOrthwick's case. He also complained,
that in postponing the motion for this Session yester-
day, the Hon. Member did net give some further
explanation as to the precise course which he meant
to pursue. He (the Lord Advocate) did not wish
the Hon. Member to recede from his declaration of
prosecuting the case next Session, because it was his
warmest wish, as it was that of Mr. Hope, that the
whole subject should undergo the fullest investigh-
tion—(Hear, kear).—The Learned Lord concluded
by moving,
" That there be laid before the House a copy of the authority
under which the Clerk of the Court of Justiciary empowered
the Lord Advocate to grant his concourse to prosecutions before
that Court at the instance of private parties, and the period at
which those powers were first exercised."
Mr. ABERCROMBY said, it was very painful to
enter again into these matters, when to do so would
lead to no useful purpose. Many strange proceed-
ings had arisen out of the present subject, but the
most strange of them all was, that the Noble and
Learned Lord, after having had an opportunity of
replying to the charges at the time they were made, i
should come down at this period of the Session, and
enter again into'the discussion, for the sake of ar-
raigning his motives in the conduct he had thought
proper to adopt. He should not object to the motion,
nor to the production of any papers which any Gen.'
tleman should think necessary to the intended in-
quiry. In consequence of what had fallen from the')
Learned Lord, he should briefly explain the course
he took, and which he believed to be the plain, di.l
rect, and manly course, under such circumstances.
He first gave notice that he meant to bring forward
the conduct of the Lord Advocate, in relation to the
Press in Scotland. When lie did so bring it forward,
he stated, to the best of his abilities and information,
all the facts which connected the Lord Advocate and
the other public Law Officers with the conduct of the
Press; the influence which the Lord Advocate pos-
sessed, and the necessary effect of that influence
having a good or a bad direction. The course which
he then pursued he should feel justified in pursuing
again under similar circumstances. But he protested
against any one having a right to arraign his motives
when so acting in the discharge of his duty. He
knew by experience as well as any one what he was
to expect in the discharge of that duty. He knew
that he stood upon his own single responsibility ; and
if, in preferring his charges, and in prosecuting this
inquiry, he personally misconducted himself, be
should do so at his own peril. He had had expe-
rience of the course intended tct be pursued towards
public accusers, but he should not on that account
shrink from performing the task which he had taken
upon him. By his introducing the case of Borthwick
in his motion, the Noble Lord declared himself taken
by surprise, and said, that he (Mr. Abercromby) had
no means of knowing that the Noble Lord was in-
fortned of the proceedings relating to that case. As
the Noble Lord himself had conducted a part of the
proceedings in the case of Mr. Stuart, he must be the
last man in the world supposed to be ignorant of it.
He had merely thrown out the case of Borthwick as
one which shewed the connection of the Lord Advo-
cate and his Deputes with the Press. This had been
his conduct, and upon it no one was warranted in
arraigning his motives, as the Noble and Learned
Lord had done. The Noble and Learned Lord now
dissented from that, but he "said that his (Mr. Aber-
cromby's) conduct was unjust and unfair, and he
knew of nothing which questioned a man's motives
if a charge of injustice did not. He had facts in his
possession at the time of making his statement, which,
when they transpired, would convince the House of
its fairness and justice, and also shew the fairness and
justice of the Noble and Learned Lord's charge.—
With regard to his not having given those Gentle.
men notice of his intention, whom he alluded to in,
his speech, he could not see how it was to be ex-
pected that he was to inform all the parties he might
find it necessary to name, in the opening of a case
which occupied three hours.
. The LORD ADVOCATE said, he had not in-
tended to question the motives of the Honourable and
Learned Member, but on the contrary, expressed him-
self perfectly satisfied at the manner in which the Ho-.
nciurable and Learned-Member had made his charges
against him, and stated that he had nothing to com-
plain of on that ant.
werec
dc
eo
au
shotlin g official
tuht tnh •
them
tmehr s
otr
oeags:
have
itvd e
wt
mo 0
aut
dhl
dee
haveGe nil ehTeennhwu who ofa
i
them acquainted with his intention.
Mr. Sect. etary PEEL stated, that he should have
pomasnedwthitehmdroetwiony e
sw ht
ei cr
dh
at
yh,e
uHpoonn. a
tnhd Learned Gn-
esole
e grounde
i! 'at it wds highly
improper to call for the production
df confidential communications between persons in
'die saute 'office.
Mr. tBERCROMBY withdrew the motion afigr
be was acquainted with the Right Hcn. Gentleman's
intention, -because he did not wish to create useless
discussion at that periodof the Session.
The motion of the Lotti Advocate was agreed to.

PIRACY.
Mr. CANNING presented a Petition from certain
Merchants, Underwriters, and Shipowners of Liver-
tpaoi nole,d b y complaining
piracy,
and requesting th o
House towards their obtiining redress. The Yeti-
fionerk stated, that their losses were occasioned prin-
manyltdshese ass tsliisetyan hcead of tlise
prin-
cipally in the West Indies, in consequence of the oua-
rmagadees
to
of
tShpea
En ins ho
siirt a
At eds
o;
rhaaitt
ya popol idc at
et osno b had
t been,
no
hid applied to the Spanish Governmen:, but without
effect. The Right Hon. Gentleman said that the first
instance which he would mention to support the
bllyecaemmilt
tbi at irobna rwoauss am
cuarsdee Pe-
of
pi, accompanied nioaackcopmlapcaeie,dl
last, off Cape Antonia. Another instance occurred
as recently as last March. This was accompanied by
robbery, and murder, no doubt, would have followed,
had it not been for the appearance in sight of an
American ship.. The Right Hon. Gentleman trusted
that -everything would he done by the Spanish Go-
vernment to prevent a recurrence of these excesses;
but if it had not the power to: controul its colonies,
protection ought to be afforded to our commerce by
our own strength—( Hear, hear).
Sir GEORGE COCKBURN said, that when the
Admiralty were first apprised of the hoisting of the Ins
dependent flag, they gave orders for the seizure of
such vessels as should, under that flag, commit de-
predations on the British property. Some seizures
took place in consequence ; but a difficulty had arisen
as to the necessary legal proof to bring home the
charge of the different offences. The moment the
Admiralty heard of the enormous outrage alluded to •
by the Right lion. Gentleman, they inquired into the
subject, and found that there was established off Cape,
Antonio a nest of depredators, whose object was tc,
seize upon all vessels not being men of war. In con-
sequence of this, an English man of war was dis-
patched to watch the place ; and a remonstrance was
sent to the Spanish Court. The House would see
that it would not be proper at present to make an
hostile descent upon the place. There was reason to
believe that the Spanish vessels would be ordered tol
co-operate with our own for the purpose of extermi-
nating these outlaws. The Admiralty, however, were
in general averse from giving convoy to foreign ves-
sels. He ought to state that the Captain Of one of
our men of war was now obliged to absent himself
from the country on account of his inability to answer
a verdict of thirty thousand pounds, which had been
obtained against him in consequence of his having
toe hastily, and in the warmth of his feelings, seized
upon a Spanish vessel which there was reason to be-
lieve was engaged in piracy.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said that, if
the question were one of unmixed piracy, there would
be no difficulty whatever. But the vessels alluded
to were in possession of commissions from alleged
authority. This had occasioned an order of the Ad-
miralty in the year ISIS, directing the seizure of all
vessels that were not equipped from a port belonging
to the place which gave them commission, provided
they had committed depredations upon British pro-
perty. As his gallant friend had stated, a legal dif-
ficulty occurred in consequence ; and the order was
then extended in terms giving a power to seize these
vessels upon reasonable grounds of suspicion that
therbad been engaged in piracy. He had not since
heard of any attack upon British property; and, with
respect to the past, there was, in appearance, ever y
disposition on the part of the Spanish Government to
afford redress. No delay could be attributed to Go-
vernment, for they had not heard of the barbarous
transactions alluded to by the Petition until the month
of March in'the present year, and they applied to the
Spanish Court immediately.—The Noble-, Marquis
here referred to his owa letter to the Spanish Court,
demanding salisfaction ; and to the answer of the
Spanish Minister, stating that the strictest order had
been given for the purpose of obtaining a discovery
of the offenders, with a view to their punishment.—
fAe
tme
de r
fromi e a nGt
hoe s
ev e r nmmielt ,e
assotht
zsefesubjects
a hmaed
dai
tsi
The Noble Marquis proceeded to observe, that the
which had met the English Government. He trusted
that the House would be satisfied that Ministers were
doing all in their power to insure the future protec-
tion of English subjects and their propertf, and to
obtain satisfaction for the past outrage.—(flear).

Mr. BRIGHT contended, that the persons who had
committed these excesses ought to be treated, at once,
as pirates.
Mr. MARRYATT said, the communication be-
tween the English and the Spanish governments was
undoubtedly very polite; but he thought it would be
perfectly nugatory, as Spain had no power over her
colonies. He thought these depredations ought to be
prevented by English convoys, which should protect
the commerce of all countries. The question was
between society at large on the one hand, and a set
of outlaws on the other. It was only yesterday that
information had been received at Lloyd's of the
seizure of two more English vessels by the marauders.
The crews of these vessels, he understood had been
cruelly tortured. He really could see no objection to
English men of war acting vigorously without wait-
ing for further communication from the Spanish Court.
Sir G. COCKBURN said, the difficulty was, there
was no one of these vessels which had not a national
character, in some paper, protection, or commission..
General (MSC° YNE spoke in favour of the adop-
tion of forcible measures in the first instance. fie
however highly approved of the steady remonstrance
of the Noble Marquis—(Near). •I
Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, this question deeply
affected our commercial interests,but still more deeply
it affected our maritime character. He was sure the
House would at all times be ready to support the
Government in their endeavours to obtain redress for
the brutal outrages mentioned in the.l'etition. lie
thought that applications to the Spanish'Court on the
subject, would be considered as merely complimen-
tary, inasmuch as Spain had but .a nominal authority
over her Cohniles. But this circumstance. was an ad-

•

flee recognition of 'tbe iimiependent
said, the sinesiien at present was.
wait before we took the remedy
He did not think that the time

part, had yet arrived; but he drought

-TON tbougkt the EaglishOdiseer silas
had erred in the course of his duty, lied .sufeted in
consequence of it, ought to be indenonitied—tOiatr.)
The Petition was ordered to lie ots the table, a 4
be printed.

CA N ADA. /Mi.

Kr. ELLICE presented • a Petition from severe*
Merchants of the City of London, (Insetted with •
Canada, in favour of the Canada Union Bill. Aftg.-
some farther observations from the How. Member is
support of the Bill,
Mr. BRIGHI contended that the Bill ought not:
to be passed in the present advanced state of the Set,•-
sion. He thought it affected the rights of alt Ler%
Colonies ; and, in the absence of the persons who.
were, he conceived, to be injured by it, he would, in
his place, protest against this abominable measure,.
and offer it every resistance in his power.
Mr. M A ILItYATT spoke against the passing of the.
Bill until those who were interested in it should fi st
be consulted.

Sir F. BURDETT thought great credit was due
to Ministers for the liberal manner in which they
had taken up the present questton; and he protested
against the harsh language which had just been ap,
plied to the Bill.
Mr. WILMOT said there was nothing, whatever
in this measure to justify the expressions of the Hon.
Member (Mr. Bright).
Mr. HUME did not think the introduction of this
Bill at this petits(' was justified.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that lie Nd
likened this Bill to that abolishing the Legislature of
Massachusets, only because it was, like it, an exam-
ple of the only interference of this Legislature %via
the Constitution of any of her Colonies. He did rant
compare them as to the amount of their sever ity.—
His argument had entirely been misconceived ; and,
as to harsh epithets, he had only said it was most
in-
convenient to pass this measure without giving them
an opportunity of declaring their sentiments. Ile
had always been more friendly to the popular part;
of our Constitution than to any other. He would
always contend that a distant people had a right to
be heard before a great change was effected in their
interests and state; and he was much surprised to
hear the sentiments of the Hon. Baronet (Sir Francis
Burdett) so different from those usually. advocatel
by him. When some change had formerly been mai'e.
in the state of Canada, two years notice had been
given. He, for one, protested against. this Bid, as
violating the solemn claim of the Stitish
—He had, when it was first spoken of in the Hou,e,
declared that his objections were insurmountable, aid
he was therefore astonished to hear it stated from the
other side, that a strong expression of his-sentime::t
was heard with surprise.
Mr. W. SMITH hoped these objections to the Bill
would not prejudice the painting of the Petition.
Mr. ELLICE said that, if he had beer* aware of
the sentiments uf,his lion. and Learned Friend (Sir J.
Mackintosh), he would not have led his Majesty's
Government so far as he had done upon an opposite
supposition. He should really recommend Cie': the
Bill be divided into two, and one passed this Session,
and the other in the next.
Sir JAMES NIACKINTOSII stated, that he Lai
always belt objections from which it was impossib:e
to recede. Though his. manner, from regard an.i
friendship, must have been such as he was always
anxious to preserve, he was surprised that mere man-
ner should have led him to suppose that he had with-
drawn his objections to the Bill. He approvek:,ithe
suggestion of his Hon. Ft iend. It.was only the re-
commendation which he had offered before going in:o
the Committee. He particularly approved of
changes in feudal tenures in Lower Canada.
Mr. ELLICE said, if he had not tinders:nod
Horn. and Leatned Friend's objections to have been
withdrawn, he would not have persisted as he had cone.
He had stated so to his Hon. and Learned Friend.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH begged leave to
He had not been so presumptuous as to think that
Bill ought to have been withdrawn from deference to
him. Certainly he had only meant that his Her..
Friend ought slot to withdraw the Bill from me: c
sonal consideration fur him.
Mr. DENISON stated that he was aware of
Hon. Friend (Mr. Ellice) having understood that
(Sir James) had withdrawn his objections.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY pointed e.. 1
the difficulties of separating the Bill into two.
feared, however, that there was no other course left
for them to take but to separate it, or give it up fur
the present Session. He proposed, there:ore, mat
one Bill should be made of the branch of tie present
for the incorporation of the two Canada Losiilature',
and leave the other two branches in a-sepai.ite Bill to
be passed this Session. He very much feared that au
opposition would be raised in the next Session,whizb
would prevent the passing of the other Bill ;
under the tone of protest adopted by the Hon. a:l3
Learned Gentleman, he believed it would scarcely
practicable to do otherwise than postpone it. But
must protest against the doctrine of the Hon. 3ni
Learned Gentleman, that distant colonies could not :c
wi,ely legislated for by the mother country.
Mr. wiLmar observed that it wets the necessi:::r
of Canada that had called for the 13111 this Session.
Sir F. BURDETT regretted the course winds
to be adopted with regard:to this Bill. The projected
change was a must beneficial one, and he thought the
objections to it were technical, and pressed wttli roc:*
sculpt/loos zeal.
Mr. BERNA L thought his Hon. Fr lend (the Men
ber fur Westminster) ought to have attended in
place, and convinced them by his arguments, wile"
the Bill was di-cussed, rather than taunt the opposo*
of it with technical objections.
After a few words from Mr. BarGur, the Petitica
was ordered to be printed.
COLOMBIAN R EPUBL

Mr. LENNARD rose to. bring before the [louse
the motion of which he hid given notice, relative to
the recognition by this countty of the Colombin
Republic. He made no apology to the House tor
troubling them on this subject, tu consideration of
its importance to that interesting nation. He wished
to know whether it. was. thought necessary to obtain,

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... I
Lord Abspates) own;' ' MilaßT 'a Petition feanullofpx.iiari Jitional rantrat for tit
of his Him. Friend, yet
...,,, ' of aid treatment by theJ.ord President Hilisms,—(Hear, hear'
pure mntives. Having Hopi, otherindges aintLawOfficersinflcotiand. I Mr. CANNING a
itving an answer to the The LORD ADVOCATE said, that the Petitioner how long we should
le Member, he felt war- had behaved contemptuously towards the Judges, into our own hands.
no intimation was given and had been treated accordingly. for action, on °taper
g forward such charges. I Mr. PEEL defended the Lord President. it dot far distant.
...- ~. env at concerned i The Petition was ordered to lie on the tAble. Mr. F. BUXTON
... - . ......1.4••• 1,..A d.....AA in tit* cot