Star.
London, England, 1825-04-22 00:00:00

•

Upon this the pratpe• arisAptsfeillij the
•
qpisit Kovi_sit nSpf r; etizitir fact, Aid'
tias athirst which 'lt war ts eontiin.—,
The next rity was the Oath preidibed in the-Hill.
tly this oath the Catholic was to den the joriidiction of
the Pope, in any civil and temporal matter. • He would
ask, in the first place, did not the disavowal of civil ju •
risdiction at once imply the existence of a spiritual juris-
diction? Let the House then consider what would be
the condition of Protestant Members of Parliament in
taking the oath of supremacy, who after they heard the
Catholic take an oath implying the existence of a spiri-
tual jurisdiction in the Pope, should themselves take,
another oath in which they declared that the Pope not'
only had no jurisdiction, but that he ought not to have
any jurisdiction in this realm=( Hear). He owned, on
examination of the oath itself, that he viewed its terms
with great jealousy. The chief ground of oppositton
which he had always proceeded on was the, danger to
the Church Establishment. It would be obterved that
the oath obliged the Catholic to disavow any intention
to disturb the Protestant Est*blishment for the purpose
of' substituting the Roman Catholic', reheat. 'Miele
was left open to the Catholic, so far. as -this. Oath:l4s.
concerned, to disturb the Established Church . if he
pleased, M as that he did not meditate the dowsifal
of the existing Establishment. could vertweli
derstand how a conscientious CathOlic wouldhe disp4sed'
to wish for the dissolution of the Establishment, without
contemplating the elevation of his oven Church. • He.
could
,epily understand how, with the
_sentiments and
the opinions he entertained, and from it' very
principle of hostility to a Church which he wits taught
to believe was an erroneous worship,. and attended'
with mischief in its' effects on Mankind —he 'could, fill,
said, very easily understand, how a pertoo'of such
description would labour for' the extermination of the
Establishment', and- yet feel no ambition to raise his
own Chnrch upon its ruins. Would they say that the
• Es6blithed Church would be aegis e.c d in try the Ca=
tholies- as the ascendant one 7 %Would they say that
there was tie bean), to the Establishment enter-
tained by the Catholics ? Let them see how it veas'
spoken of by the heads of the. Catholics. Let theM
hear the terms that were. used in respect to it by'
Dr. D.,yle. lime the Right Hon-Gentleman reed ex-
tracts from t' e writ ngs of Dr. Doyle, under the sig-
nature of J: K. L. in which he ailtided to the church
Establishment in, terms of no measured reprobitiOn.
GOD forbid we should charge the Catholics with en-, ,
tertaining cpinions against the security o!' Government
or the well-being of society I In the present Bill two
.oaths,were explained away. and •disposed of ; hut-. he •
was quite satisfied that,, throughout the Bi I,.Catholic
prejudices were consulted rather than Protest lot feel-
jogs. It was provided th*it a 'commission, Consisting of
four Bishops;-should be the pledges of the Church se-
curity. . They were to disclose wha ever was incon-
, sistenc with loyalty and riblic security. Yet be it re
collected, that'while they weie boiled to tell nis -Ma-
jesty whatever they knew, they were not bound to
tell all titty. knew: ('liters).—If anything came from'
abroad vzhich they close to
.corrirnui.icate, theY %eve tp
communicate it. But what security vkas.there tl4t
they would communicate all which carnefrom alioad
was argued that there was a security
.against a
Bisjiop, being appointed who was d.sloyal, or unfit for,
his high station in the leyait y and ckualifEations or ,
the other' Billi Ops. But could they r• fuse to appoint.
a .11;sbcip, actin was recnosmended. by Are, Poise ?
'liken they wete. to .report. only to hialkliesty. 1111;1
• 'sere not reqtured to tell allsthat migtit appear d roger=
Xtigy
.tpig4,, is) Oniniuntp e 194,075* ss,p
innoricius, and conceal whatever was JC,o
cis ceuld be more effective in tl e han.of...Priest,s,
He vioald-ask the Honsewhether frisk Roman Catholic
%16:crephe.pylikpS. of the krotvfof
for an niplabatinh
gofer cOmmtinicatienis between the Pope ana..rdsWiear
osio sal' iii Ehgyand. But wel Were, :tcild
~thit tee'
Weie;tcci• stiikti othpi ittrOaik*wincli. were th' he sip:,
4nded to this ISA Of them lie c-Atd. only* tvt,
gey were not now before. the. How, Whether they
amere measures of
fie`
or of regulationkbesoold
*ol:kst folied:tf the' cianteltuences'of the fiendamental
!niesiibre"o2 eln.lftVie jrne Xtries stfrre aitisOiedl The
P.st nseasite was the di,erihaliirig the 4115:;,(Y4i
bitip-: 1;4 thcHon. Baronet.wbo. Omen
;inn. to-diirealiclilsee'very fret holder at ence,•or did he
rrjean to disfranchise eves y freeholdei Only at‘ the end
sol. his lease? Itlhey were at once to be deprived of
errflieeldlits,'• he asked where the justice' of such
4)iiiitett they were to ekijely their
reasolds.dnespg.oe., tog, he asked iloirlierri.belk,r.
eipedinliy, his .frion. Friends the Hon. h••inibers•qr
ktrirniglionif Downshire, whist .security sake. change
iebtild. frerd',
,meastrif?—(l:orid clee4 • Tlie,
,'sec~nd'rßjy re toss alientl4lielitt.Pt9qo.°loo-;001*
Pau Catholic tlergy., Such eprovisiOn he Considered'
nl:at variance the principles on which the fie-
TorMAllOiski tbeeii
„founded. If indeed the Roman
tCaitiolic ItAigion eras so much changed,. that
preached very neatly to the Aberality sot Protestaint.m;
*sat occasion' ..w.rs there for a Protestant Establish-
merit et . all ?—(ieerit • cheering). Unlest, perhaps,
the offal' thilitSgliuit, as an Honourable end
!Learned Gentleman.had:said, increased inversely as the
parties appe.ortimated. Had, the friends of this awe-
snre -considered how the people of this-country were
disposed,tonaiy.this contribution-to the Clergy? Had
it been considered, for ihst'inte, how.the.Presbyteriarts
•01-Scothuad felt disposed to pay:. the Roman Catholic
Priests? jt had been'argued that the. Scriptures were
regatdo sii,the'perartiount rile of doCtrine and con-
duct in thetailkilc-Chtirch ; but ghee SerlOtwe was.
dim* Opposed to the observances of the Clmich;ii.hast'
could be given that the authority of Scripatre.
Pri?fft-t(COeetti).
~ The, Rigist Honoirahle,
Gepe.l4ll2lrgtetrid to. evidence Sven befoie a Ct;ni
, ;
;pima, in order to show that, private individual judk
:Ilea was not allowed by the Church of Rome. PM
principle Of that Chtilih was to combine all means in at-
lectasplithing dieinpurposes. This he considered a detest=
able priociple. They. now relied upon the Protesters;
Church for support in this very measure. If the Haus:
granted thii, it would be only the beginning of a series
of measures of the same kind: and every succeeding
*nature would come supported with additional strength.
Would any man in that House say that the Hon.
Member for Montrose's proposition for reducing the
Church Establishment in Ireland would not. be better
supported after this measure had been carried? On
the ground. of protecting everything held dear by
Englishmen—on the ground of • warding off all the
evils which we ought to avoid as the very greatest—on
the principle of maintaining our laws and liberties, not
only as recognised at the Revolution, but as lonising
the essence of the Reformation—on every prim.

ale sad collaiJenlafin he shootd give
rn lus unreel: to tfifi Bill in all its stags. .
• .(The 'ficie.-Ventientie was losialyaiirea at tat sea,
Oho of Minima.)
LorieLINDSAY spokeirery'brieflY' and4irti tttttTlri
emit srvsuppott the measure fee the &it tate, bavidg fotaierti
resisted others of a similar mire. -
Lord BINNING knew not that in the, whole course
of his Parliamentary life he had ever' heard a speech
which had given him such pleasure as that delivered
at the commencement of the:debate; by. the' Honour-
:able Member for Armagh. Tue. Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Goulburn) had truly described tbe present state of Ire-
land • but what was the remedy
.her proposed for the
evils he alluded •to? Why, to leave-0.40i as they are
r). Of all the'chanies:'.:lnilibed,,takeh' place
in recent times, none was more remark lo than those
of the principles' upon which' the present meastire had,
St:Warlitiut'tinsei 'been intitidneed:. He- recollected the
dine wheo
,one Hon.. bleml4f(DEPageo)i.o) svatij
came down to. the 'House attired against the.Catitolics
.with 'Ponderiius folios; and when'that Hon. Gentleman
piuglirOped ao Bitrtmeti.(Sit, John
PhisilipPisley) equally- pod's
i4rous—(iilatigi); The question hold 14-..0 opposed by
the Member for Corfe-Castle, in the same manneras if
'he. /lodge had been *gbfriesinto cfifistriluee of Stipply7
,There could lieoAsclipget-or a' want of siacciOcin
meYr'oteitant line, from thenbmber. hem in re.
ainder. The cineitiiat was 'not as to the existence of
a Catholic Chula •in Ireland. That Church did 'exist
—and the object of [Ad nit was' to render ttaleamtenee
ciwnpatible with the sifeilo(the Established Church.
1-114 Right Honourable Friend wilt alio haunted by the
!letters -of Dr. Dbllie..• The MANI '‘4iip• 'with
spirittirti'ttreirit;
,lettersl
were ovlielen. at the sae ,time did milt see
an'yi:lcansistelicr between . Owe letters' and the evi-
dence' risen th. Dr: Doyle. before the Conimittee:'
All the relit' tfki',orDr: Doyle referred' to • terhpOral
martel.n.' That Prilitio7,Preferria Etng-
land to any without the pale of his own Church.
,There had ,biers do uriWillitigness on the part. of
D' y*;. adttlit' that he win' the ainhor of the'
letters atgoed J:.l L': lailka, he -triiist. have beett'
au are that the fact was well known to t' e COmmittee.
had'thete bee 'any c4tradiction, he was hound to
)ielieve'the evidenceara'Clirlitiattlitillap, in preference
of that of an:iriitatOpniiip;C. l'helaninage of pi..
Doyle was not that of a Catholic of the age of Pope
*Mince nor Gregory. But Dr: Doyle was not-singular
lo his opiliiiMs' at to the 'altabliiheit Cfriirkli.' The. so rne
wetethe sentimepts,of Abe Catholic prelittes`of
of the Catholic Archbishop cf Tuani,•and of the excel-
ient Dr. Murray. He would Opooie;:as much. as the
MeMlier' flii"Ccirfe`casite,..flir rtg
Merit, but thee-. not the: Case::
.At' all. eveotille
reould not .object to a measure that would tranquillise
AetO tht-inab'fotipayintthe Catholic Clergy,
e theiighetile!sitieWin'Of' Open*. when. the objett
. wa:so betieatb:ol care Of` a great: oi-
tion—( Hear, hear 4t He congretulated the House and
the country upon the progress:the meature had already
!Made, for he helieied that alililVtiftliiinaturewas the
tEue theinlita-;
:ture•Were to•liegin,by iscitrti ofthe
of Ireland, it might:peoceed:with those other measures
inS•ce.sary to itt & w onhith' could. never be-
totiO4u:et.fpilai thkkiite
fineatton of Manespattql) Was. scp e • The Cithonci
:text themselves an excluded, a degraded, and a perse-
cuted elail''o arid' they looked with stApftion upon every
proposed;oposed.. 1.41 these WhO'kvithlieldfrarn 'thetas
indult they deenied to he their r%Slits. He hOPecl,.there=
ifere; that the House would porsevere as it had betinetz
ithat the Bill would be writ by a largeMajeirity to the olive{
and that it would 14 tliergetteuded wiih clod slittess I. and after'
iliciving.the-R4Ol Asisdi# briery:B444nm- a law,' bkcioine the
Istro_ogest safegoarder she litiplee—(fAiii4 cheering),- •
Mr. WAl;tilearrid; Ob. Oka' was more aliZidtta.
40.mteir to 'cc the Objectritibilnetrat which" tliis'Bilt
pfotessed to aim and if fie slietilt wifigit. etfPgi
those objects, !eclat seine sactikee o theCrinitfiution,
the should give it his vote with: mote gratification than
e now expressed his reluctant opposition tathe mew-
sore. The passing of. the QUI would, ii his opioioni
give as much dissatisfaction
-to One.party as it would
give satisfaction to another, and could-not thereby traa.
quillize the colony, It tlierefOre appeared to him*
'least evil of the two to brave existing. dangers Atma to,
,create new ones. , Looking to the evidence before the
iCommittee, he, found that rrlueh, indepentient of, thiti
Measure, might be done for Ireland, and
-he should pep
fer introducing Other ,changes first,, and jeering this
-list, it it were deemed necessary. This he also tonsi._
.dered an unfit' time to pass such an. Act.
„At another
period the' Catholics. might come forward with re-
spectful solicitations, but,Parliatneot coheir. in
Ind, that wi h whatever moderation their Volition was
orded, and in whatever terms of„conciliption the
ourable Baronet introduced the . question to the
House, still the•Petitioa:cmatiated from. the Catholic.
Astocistion—a body which , the Legislature was,, so
'recently compelled to put down by a special
It Might hereafter be conceded, without compromising
the dignity of the House ; bat now it would,
:be 'pow-,
'dered a sacrifice and peace-Offering to the Catholc
:Association. No ParliarnentwOold pro-
bably assent to that conclusion, but they were to weigh.
Well what might be felt outside.. of ,its doors. They:
might.to look to the feelings with which the Catholics
• • d receive the measure. Two lights in which tliis
question might be viewed were, as. a measure, to give
slid:faction, and as one to put ap end to evils which.
rimy prevailed. „Seine persons had- said that there was
Ito danger in these contesuons, but be (Mr. Wallace)
thought it wai most dangerous to trench Upon a fun-
damental- principle of the Constitution: It also
'red to him mestdangerous to give additional power
to a neW•party iii die State. Our ancestors felt that a
Protestant King was no security for their liberties,
unless
cannonaded by a Protestant council, and Sup-:
ported by a Protestant Legislature. With respect to
the conversion of some Honourable Members, be must
observe, that the opinions given-in evidence, and by
which they had been influeoced, were not'new to him;
but he denied that in the official acts or avowed pre.
tension; of the See of Rome there Was theleast change.
The only security, in his opinion, which could be pro.
posed, was a- substantial interference b' Government
en the appointment of the Romish Bishops; nor_ was
such an interference really inconsistent with the disci-
pline or doctrine of their religion. It was said in the
evidence last year, that the mass of the people of Ire-
land slid not think their Inteeests idelalled with Catholic Bolan:.
cipation, and to grant it could not therefore confer any advatitige
upon them. For these lease's he should vote against the Bill.
Mr. PORThIAtI declared himself a firm supporter Of
the Established Church, but a friend of civil and
reli-
lious toleration. This Bill would seam the peaciand
content of Iceland, and with that conviction he should

_ • .

I

S

'yob he the The mama yogi, to dintlaktraWa fiesh
&err to and new viewer se the Cosetinakes
.''.. Lord YALLETORT declared itim self tine Of the
many converts to the present Bill, and he believed if all
,w4nse prejudices-4e meant Opinionk derived from ant
thority,and not from reason and intuit y—were removed
by the evidence before the 'magi% Committees, were
to declare themselves, the conversooa
t- ,winildint,fbnack
more niihiertalf * thin" vial' sntinlie Billianelpettin-
might be delayed, but every men,-evenlii Moitebstla
nate enelatektmutbe*Cenrutettk,lhAt.loPlNT:or talftvia.;
lasuill beearded.7older, beatf.4-ile immix give hii hearty
to suiliptitur the mil. .
..
~ ~ . .
- Mr. Weary. CAI*INING.thett 'TOM, Vilest- lomf
chiettlreit'all &Wert thelfbitierrOttetV *tither':
Filial to my lotto ailittaii the HOissernititii linpoi Oak
question; I epiiibitili: hi' cbdiMetaiinii; ' chi :thepfeseit i:
occasion, With verfpecutir tactile-alai; fii, hi'titivele
linfo'veillaiilseatkirigrotiid, thesobtect TiressMs Id me
1' crew' and most cheering) FitOspeCia;.(iflear;.tieini..a
Whether or no-itte-ogntiti Of the-cOunitj'haebterni'
strongly pronounced against tbdlic onneestioroas—. ....
~,„,,,„,,,orfs' atottlytarmight - be- infeired' f in' the
ntumbei of •Petittnekl wilt `not' undertateltie sir 'bet'
of iblil am ;lA, that anititiethie readeilerrwTio lie l'lr
addressed theHouee; beweyerireai reeile 'chili-sin:.
verity and -theft' zeal, there is ninth, , Ind trOeafrienoi-
dispalagfnily.nuth of igWnyinte:# this Rietitioiltt
nerally--(plieeirs)., I feel ' as sititilleaf .app tian the..
propt iety of throwtog-Open. the 'doors of Parliament to
the-Petitionsvf the` people t bat - at - the -same-titne -it • it-
the duti'of-.the Howie to printennet • a.decitien ors ita
own' inclgmentr. TO' the country' generally' I Canted*
this right, and to thetlergy,, who are in advance, the'
girardians•uf- the. religiousiostieutioni Of• the countty,
I siot 6filYeatend-toteritiott,; but atiAlatid theiti, when'
they come forWara' te)eiiiriSi theft' c4iiitia opinions
on a question of sigh importance.:-(Flear, hefir),..-
But as an instance of the-ignorance to-which I allude,
I will call theattention of theiViose- to one Petitloo;,
•sviiliOii staking•the Wee Whence- it.cairie;' as I' die%
;nothing jovidinus. These Petitioners- Fitasj;4.that YoUrg•
liinichirable Hduse would not extend to the Roman Ca.
tholics- tb64-privilizes a lith 'were Withheld From other
tilaitets of Disieitterb. MciF, •it INfiecalled n pots tb
(declare, what my (Meet is in supporting, the ' present
Bill, I wodid sa•yohat it is' to place the. Catholic Div:
'writer on the same footinras the-atherDisienters {Hear;
heat-) ;' anal' would Coiffend • thardiliTetition and' the
other Petitions, of yehteli'tqi.Osse' specfinen, does not
apply against my view of she question, nor, indeed,
agatost•tha Bill itself—(Hear, stark I•do not go the
lerigtissof sayifig.thatit'vft/dthe right-to' remove all
political disahaitiels'on's4dilni'cif religion. I' ain font
ptedominant-Churcb, and-IwOrild 'not meddle with the
lows by which-that' preddiniaancy isletured- to- the
,Church of' Englaudiunleis'lt shits' that ajeit-eootr
neeteil with' a iiittitiltileir•inee. eetfitrilietifiA
from the Dissenters surprised me rnoch,and I could noli
help noticing, with -some astrinistinient, that-the-debate
otthit,'aiiircif the' ftittnelidghtf, itiettnnetTniore upnit
theologicalpoints than 1 remember the Houle tiliare in!, • -
dplged in befttfel' I ninsiirptised Irk see, with *reference tti
'those theoloOcat ' pOittfli that'. the Chufth'ol.Boglind
tOes not chalkier' the Cathnlie Dissenieri mere- con.
gebig'iltli tbeir ON :cikiialoiti' in some
.1441Cai than
other'e)iiiiki:, of! D)iiii'dirs;. te..V:l-ilitti it. 414 'a Opear,
that. they have nis.cbjectiot): Sot the sympatny is qtilto
the other way. Now .what- is it that weldiject to-in'
the Catholic belief ? One dottrioeit tliitt‘of ttAnsublistfr
tlitlon. Gob ibTrtild, thitt withidthes viaili, and liefdrWs
this. Assembly; I should enter...int.:is:4 discistiOn upon'
articles of Christian faith; But when- we regret-44g-
obe man believes in transubsittritiation;otttpinceen softie
ao co'excitsjCliiipifrinn'Patilainent iif;coilskiiiiiiiieof
Abet belief, let it not be forgotten that' the man' who
bplieves-in'antobstantiaiiritsits at'out' side, and enjoys
Avery priviegroftbranittitatitiii: I do not profess to en.
:ttif iiktelhe dire/lei' df thiAe'dectiines* but be viliii*C4a:
tlll USe A ssiiP a' ititl4 coucitikloi, witiv ni WY. be'die::
fld to hint in dispittaiiO4.bOt cahoot be 01, the, rintalle
sbieiee in any of theconsmen•pueposesatillte•(.l lairgily
101 chuftbes ate in' theif nature exclusive; Wit When
we make it a prominent cliO•ge- against. the. Catholic.
Church that theyare exclusive, let us- net forget Ain
Athanasian Creed—(ffearilie r)—whiclo says after
enninetatint the' subltnie- Mysteries of' Otte telikiak,
that , the man *hti• MOP not., belleir in' there wile
be daitinett.,(ooF,44+;,kee4-;-:Piii' diae.Churiti' to
eery, that. the Catholic Church' is exclusive; amount*
.10 at absurdity farm' which' the- anderstanding. ftt
CAAK Atithibiib nntliiiiilideprejbilitee dide,aCeodb,tiliti
'Mach stress is' also lands'' cialli'diictifiiii•of absobilßini .
which has been grossly asisrepreseuted. . According* to
the avideno given before the Cpmenitteeviiitaeate
, at. thilsibisitittlnfkii edittliddfiar;. ilideed,' • tfè
had stitheevideace to jititi d' ik ,sigi' We 4)- ' ' 0
Avery person who inquired candidly into the 'abject",
that' me Catholic Chercte tdi sssid tut offer' hat mdiW
then acolidltiotatabicilhe 'tit the Penitent: If 64*
tte the case,_ kwill, ask any manti tea a seeteitil* if
our own Prayer;-book. on. chi Visitation of the Mari
!berth* will see the very same-dnetrine,' inserted ies.
the very same words its those stated befittotlia Ctitdo
soittee,..:(lllrert'Werri•MzlitiSohlbectliiditiOn Of sitiOrle
lepentante, Of renovincwg sin, and deteritining-ta lead
a near lifeitharsalvatiinia protnitad, on Aldrinstlimity
of Scripture,
.by the Clergy_of both Churches. r chi -
not rneente,pity, that she shades of
.dibreicei are not,
Wide enough to make me-rejoiCe that wit bas sesiarated.
• . i. the Church of Rome; but Ida say,. that they sib
OM Wade enotkgh W *idly ni in denounci4 die' a
scion aof the)lothaii Catholia, as ineOmpatibiewitt .
discharge of their duties' iiiiiiod sibjects, eta ' •
leathers of the State. Ido not drew the confpuebois
invidiously, . but I alti turtdsbds When a glaAtlll •
conies -before us. for Ali tithe Beth' or &midge; . . ,
'we can think of gnat rating with the' Catholic aintai.
)grounds such as I have described, when we sit by
the side and Vote ii the Rouse 'with thotir *lto
'deny the divinity of our B.tvrover--(Hear, siesstp:-..
If theological tenets are to have any weight, that de-
nial is surely a strooger badge of dissent than any that'
can be charged against those who are to be afFected'fif
the Bill. Another of the objections insisted on iii the
overweening merit and efficacy Which they ascribe tee
individual actions. This they certainly do ; but would
it not be more dangerous to a State to' make &id'
Works nothing, 'and faith riterything ?—(liedr, heat).
We are talking tithe subjects of the State, and I would.
prefer the man who insisted on the necessity of good
works as part of his religious creed, to the man who'
considered himself controuled in all his actions by an-
inexorable fate.. We have had in Parliament, and in
the highest offices of Government, Unitarians, and
Socinians, as I could easily litotes But then* come
'the Political otijeetiOni;. a Papist, it is said, cannot
'bear dui illigtana to i Sovereign of this ternary.—