Star.
London, England, 1831-03-19 00:00:00

SILK DVTITS.

Mr. P. THOMSON, in answer;;;question from an hon. mem-
ber, said there wu no intention to alter the regulations as to the im-
port of silk manufactured goods.

CUSTOMS ACTS-TIMBER DUTIES.
The House then resolved itself into a Committee on the Customs'
Acts. Sir A. GRANT in the Chair.

Lord A LTHO RP said, that in proposing the timber duties, he had
in view a large increase of revenue, without additional pressure on the
people, and with ultimate benefit to the timber trade. He knew the
power of the shipping interest, increased, as it was, by the union
with which they usually acted on such occasions as the present ; but,
confident of the beneficial effect of his measure, he had been prepared
to meet their opposition. It could not be said that their property was
destroyed if diverted into another channel. The effect of the present
drawback on timber was to compel the consumer to use an inferior ar-
ticle ; or if he wished a better article, to raise the price artificially
against him, entirely for the sake of one class. That the North Ame-
rican timber was an inferior article, did not require any argument; it
was unfit for a great number of purposes. Being much less lasting
than the Baltic timber, it had been excluded from the dock yards.—
The red pine of Canada was said to be nearly equal to the Baltic
timber ; but its price was about fifty per cent. greater than that of the
latter. The present system was often a protection for the United
States; Norway was a sterile country, and could produce nothing to
give in return for our manufactures but timber. was a fertile,
country capable of a variety of productions, and yet we were to take from
them an inferior timber. He felt that it was desirable that nothing
should be dose to injure the shipping interest, but was not prepared to
say that every other interest should be sacrificed to it. (Hear, hear.)
To put the house in possession of the whole question it would be neces.
nary to state the present prospect of the revenue. Comparing the
amount of the Custom dutiis for the two months that were passed
this year, with the receipt for the first two months of last year, there
was an increase of 176,8021. which would give an increase on the year,
should the proportion continue the same, of 1,060,8121. But, although
he thought it probable that the increase should continue in the same
proportion throughout the year, yet he thought it would be prudent in
calculation to take it at two-thirds, which would be 717,2081. which,
in addition to the amount of Customs last year, would make the 'mount
of Custom duties, for the present year, 18,250 0001. from this should be
deducted the duty on coals and slates repealed, 700,0001. leaving
17,550,0001. to which should be added the duty on steam-boats, which he
calculated at 75.0001. duty on raw cotton •550,0001. increased duty on ex-
port goods 100,0001. increase of duty from the alteration in wine duties
150,0001. making the total amount of custom duties for the year
18,125,0001. He thought he was justified in estimating the produce
of the year by the produce of the two first months, because the same
thing had been done by Lord Goderich when Chancellor of the Ex-
chequer, and found to answer well. (Hear, hear,) The excise duty
for the year calculated in the same manner, and allowing for the repeal
of the duty on printed calicoes and candles, and the stamp duties,
post-office duties, and other taxes, would leave a total re-
venue of 47,685,0001. which he thought might he fairly calculated
on, as all our manufactures and trades were proceeding in such a
steady manner that he saw no reason to apprehend any falling off.
This would lame a surplus fur the present year of 685,0001. Next
year, as there would be no drawback on printed calicoes, for which
be allowed 600,0001. this year, and as the linen bounty, amounting to
100,0001. would cease, this with the duty on cotton and increase on
the wine duty for the whole of the year he calculated would leave •
surplus of 1,135,0001. With this prospect of increased revenue he
thought an alteration m.ght be made in the proposition he first stated
to the Clouse respecting the timber duties. lie proposed not to in.
crease the duty on Canadian timber, but to make a gradual reduction
in the duty on Baltic timber. (Hear, hear.) This reduction of duty
on Baltic timber was a most important treasure of policy. The objec-
tions made to it were twofold—one applied to the shipping interest,
the other to the colonies. With respect to the shipping interest of this
country he felt, that as a maritime power it deserved very great protec.
tion, but he also felt that we were not justified in sacrificing to it every
other interest of the country. If it must suffer by the change, it should
be done gradually, and it would suffer the less as the price of timber
would be reduced. The shipping interest must ever depend on the
commerce of the country, and that must be benefited by a reduction in
the duties on timber. It must be advantageous to the commerce of the
country to open the timber trade with the Baltic. (Hear.) The second
objection made to the proposed alteration was the effect on the Colonies.
No doubt the capital in Canada, which was fixed in the timber
trade, such as that expended on saw-mills, must suffer ; but the whole
capital employed in the timber trade in that country was not of large
amount, and the greater part of it could be readily transferred to
agriculture. It was said it would interfere with the employment
of emigrants to Canada; but the fact was that emigrants
were not much employed in the timber trade, because they were
not so expert as the Canadians in the use of the axe ; and they
were only employed in moving timber. It was a defect in the
legislation for Canada that had caused capital to be applied to the tim-
ber trade, rather than to apiculture, and by a change in that legislation,
capital would be directed to its natural employment, and the emigrates
would be all employed in that pursuit, and, according to all evidence,
such a change in the employment of capital would be beneficial to
the Canadians. The case was different with respect to Nova Scotia
and New Brunswick ; the soil there, was less ferule than in Canada,
and the timber trade was, in consequence, of more importance to
them ; and if the effect of the alteration was to be the total
destruction of the timber trade, no doubt they would suffer; but
that would not, by any means, be the case. For many uses in this
country their timber was preferred to any other—it was soft and easily
worked. Their yellow pine was better than that of Canada, and would
be less affected by the reduction of price in the Baltic timber. He should
now state the proposition he had to submit to the eommittee. At present
the duty on Baltic timber is His. a load ; on Canada timber 20s; deals
from the Beide of sixteen feet long, paid a duty of I9L a hundred; if
twenty feet long, a duty of 221. a hundred. This duty, co the average,
amounted to no more than 455. a load on timber when sawed into deals.
To avoid any sudden alteration, it was his intention to propose that
the existing duties should continue unchanged to the Ist of January
next. (Hear.) He should propose that the duty on Baltic timber be I
then reduced six shillings a load till the Ist of January. 1833 : to

be then further r.tlueed six shillings a load to the Ist of January,
1834 ; from thence to be reduced three shillings more, making a re-
duction from the present duty of 15s. a load, that is reducing the duty
on Baltic From timber from 551. to 401. With respect to dealt, he
would take a scale beginning at twelve feet long by eleven inches wide,
and three inches in thickness, the duty to advance for every two feet in
length. The duty on deals, estimated according to tee quantity in •
load of timber, should be for the fleet period 49., for the second period
43a, and for the third period 4lht : no alteration in the duty on Canada
dads. The noble lord concluded by moving, that in lieu of the duties
at present payable on timber imported from countries in Europe, there
be payable, from the Ist of January, 1832, to the Ist of January, 1833,
21. tht. per load ; from the Ist of January, 1833, to the Ist of January,
1834, 21. 3s ; and after the Ist of January, 1834, 21.
Mr. WARBURTON asked, did the duty on deals diminish as they
decreased in length, in the game proportion as it increased with the in-
crease of length ?
Lord ALTHORP replied, that it diminished in a greater proportion,
as they were less valuable.
Mr. ATT WOOD said, the measure now did not differ in
principle from the first proposition of the nobTellied, as, like that, it
took away the protection ftom timber of British growth. (Hear.
hear.) He had given Government credit for candour, but he thought
it was not consistent with candour to propose such a measure of
which the house was kept ignorant to that very moment. He did not
agree with the noble lord in the opinion that capital would be trans-
ferted with such facility from one employment to another. The noble
lord admitted that there were other interests than revenue to be con-
sulted —it was a question of rights and policy. The honourable mem.
ber for Brklport (Mr. Warburton) had said that the colonies had no
claim of right to protection, but all the acts rests cting the Canada tim.
ber trade proved that it was under a protection as sacred as national
faith could give. (Hear.) It appeared by a report of a committee of
the house that the timbir trade of Canada was established by protections
in the years 1909 and 1810—it was then no question of revenue or of
timber, dear orcheap. It was known when the duties were laid on the
Heide timber that we should pay a high price for the Canada timber—
but the object was the protection of the colony. A committee of the
house in 1821 stated, that the intercourse with the northern states of
Europe might be interrupted, which might become the caused serious
political inconvenience. On the faith of Acts of Parliament parsed
with this feeling, British merchants had invested their capital, and that
protection should be held sacred. The danger was now passed, but
then came the question. You no longer fear danger ; but are you to
sacrifice the men who secured you? British merchants, on the faith of
Acts of Parliament, had invested the capital in the recesses of Cana-
dian forests, and were entitled to protection or compensation. They ,
should not he sacrificed to the interests of Russia. All these persons •
' had vested their capital in dependance on national faith, and were entl.l
tied to its protection. No measures of an unjust polity could be car.,
vied into effect without bringing with them certain evils, though they
might be distant. There was no wisdom in injustice. The tnessures
proposed by his Majesty's Ministers were not calculated to appase
discontent ; they appalled the moderate, and only tended to render the
violent more violent. The whole of the productive classes of the coon-
try had been sacrificed in succession, and a revolution had, in conse-
quence, taken place in property, which threatened a revolution in go.
vestment. Political economists all argued that capital should only be
employed in the 111101 W productive manner ; this they derived from their
master, Adam Smith : but it was not possible to change the employ.
ment of capital without producing distress. The labourer in one branch
of industry would be destroyed by e change to any other. If the pro-
tection enjoyed by Canada was taken away, the whole of our colonial
protection might be taken away in succession. If it were admitted that
the system of protection was had, and that it was desirable it should be
abolished, yet such a change must be productive of much suffering,
and the question now was, is this a period at which such a change
should be made ? If the house were agreed to abolish protection, the
next step would be to seek for a time for such a great experiment.
when there was tranquillity abroad and prosperity at home. If a new
channel were now opened it might be closed by political events in a
month, and we might he driven back to that we had abandoned (hear).
The political economist thought they possessed exclusive knowledge,
though they only knew what was known to every member of the
house with the important addition of the danger of change. (Hear.)
He lamented to see Ministers holding their responsible situation at a
time when half Europe was in flames, content to shut their eyes to all
danger, and employ themselves in trying experiments on untried
theories. He thought the question of such importance, that as the
Noble Lord had made no alteration in the principle he should take the
sense of the house on it. (Hear.)
Mr. P. THOMSON said he should be sorry to see any Govern.
went place the question exclusively on two interests, as the hon. gentle.
man had done. The hon. gentleman only considered the interest of
the colonies and the ship-owners. The government added to these the
interest of the consumer, and took into view the whole interest of the
country. Parliament had a right to alter any duty for the benefit of
the country. So far from Canada being promised a continuance of the
same protection, Committees of Parliament declared that no such
expectation was ever held out. (Hear, hear.) Lord Bathurst, in
moving the Timber Duties Bill, in the House of Lords expressly
stated that the duties would be open to revision. He agreed with
the hon. gentleman, there was a pledge given, but it was a pledge to
the country. The House of Lards was not composed of political eco-
nomists; these new ideas travelled slowly enough to satisfy the hon.
gentleman, yet a committee of the house,in 1820, had only recom-
mended a protection amounting to about hat half the proposed alters.
Lion would reduce the present protection to in 1834. (Hear, hear.)
The present state of the duty was highly injurious to the labour of
this country. Deals, by the present regulation, were brought in, in
preference to gross timber. The honourable gentleman said the present
measure would be, to raise Russia at the expense of other countries
but the parties interested in the Russia trade say their interests would
be injured by the measure. The protection to the Colonies Would
not be removed, it would only be moderated. When the subject was
under consideration before, it was stated that if the proportion of
duties was altered, the Canada trade would be destroyed 1 but the
result was the very reverse. (Hear.) In 1817, the amount of timber
imported from North America was 170,000 loads ; and in 1829, it
advanced to 518,000 loads. (Hear.) The has. member for Bristol
said the number or ships employed in the Canada trade was 1,600,
and 20,000 seamen; but this statement was founded on all the voy-
ages made, which was 1314 in the year, and taking off what was
employed in other trade than timber, the number left was 800
ships and 9000 men. (Hear, Hear, hear.) When the whole of the
present system was made known, it would surprise many that such
a preposterous system could have continued. (Hear.) A paper was
on the table of the house which &hewed that the difference of duty paid on
Baltic timber, and what would be paid on the same if imported from
Canada, amounted since 1810 to 20,000,0001. In 1825. it was
1,29(1,0001. in 1826, 1,409,0001. and last year 1348,0001. making in
six years a loss to the country of 7,431,0001. By another calculation
it appeared that the difference in 1829, wis 1,202,0001. The right
hon. gent. went on to whew that no disadvantage could by possibility
arise from the proposed measures of his Majesty's Ministers; nay, that
it would be better to keep the ships Railing about the Atlantic thantdoing
nothing. He might also observe, that onahalf of the shipping
to be displaced might be bought by Government. These, he under-
stood, might be purchased at the rate of 20001. each, making a total
of 1,600,0001. a sum about equal to one and a half year's loss by the
present mode. He made these observations mere on the principle of
compensation. (Hear.) Further still, he contended it would be better
for the interests of the country, were Government to buy the whole
timber imported from the coast of Canada and burn it, than adopt the
principle suggested by the opponents of the proposed measure ; for by
that means there would be 90,0001. less to pay. He was satisfied by
the adoption of the gradual and moderate measures recommended by
the Government a sure and safe protection was afforded ; but what, he
would ask, was the effect of that measure? It did not come into
operation until the Ist of January next; the effect after that period
would be not a displacing of the Baltic timber, but the reverse.
An erroneous comparison had been set up between the trade carried
on by English ships and foreign bottoms ; but how at cd the case ?
From documents he held in his hands, it appeared that the total quan-
tity of deals imported in foreign ships from Sweden, Norway, Russia,
and other port in 1822, amounted to 141,000, whilst during the same
period the quantity brought by English ships was two hundred and nine.
teen thousand, thus afibrding a convincing argument to disprove any
statements made to the disadvantage of the English shipping trade;
again, in 1823, the tonnage of English. compared to foreign ships, was
as three fifths to two-fifths ; and in 1830 it was as two-fifths to three.
fifths. He contended that if by the proposed measure a number of
'hips would necessarily become unemployed, these would easily be
taken up in the coal trade. Another objection had been started, as to the
amount of tonnage of these vessels; that he could prove ftom wheaten-
tary documents and the Customhouse returns, to be on an average 200
tons. He had been told that many of the ships, however, were of 400;
from that statement he only gathered that many of the others were below
200 tons; consequently, the average tonnage be had stated was as near
correct as possible ; but to metre beyond a doubt that be was correct in
the amount be had given, he had procured a return of the number of
vessels trading to the port et London with coals in 1830; these were
6944, affording a toad amount 6(1,413,000 toes, confirming an average
to each of 204 tons. No doubt, as he bad already hinted, there might be
many larger, and many smaller, but he was justified in saying that there
would be additional employment for the ships thrown out. By returns
also obtained from the port of Newcastle, the average of ships there was 207
tons ; the degree of protection required by the opponents to the present
measure wee therefore exorbitant and unnecessary. He would take the
liberty of raiding a letter front an individual engaged in the timber
trade, who was holly unknown to him, but no doubt was well known
loth hon. member for Newcastle, front which town the letter was dated; ,
it came from the writer asking advice respecting the change proposed in
the scale of duties on timber. The writer stated that it was a common
practice for some traders to ship Baltic timber to the Caned= and re- I
snip It from thence to Great Britain, free of the Baltic timber duty; the
writer added that this course had bees adopted to a great extent by some
during the peat year, although he bad never done it, notwithstanding ,
that oessiderable advanteos might lave be derived from it. Now he
(Mr. P. Thomson) amended that the existence of such a state of things 1
wag a positive proof that the law warned nose aoseadsaist. (Hear.) i

Then, with respect to the timber on the ground lonn'ed to emigranbettiem
was told that the first thing they did with it was to cut it down and
prepare it for tale. Such was not the fact : not one tree out of a hundred
felled by the emigrant was worth selling. After adverting to the state
of the lumber trade, the right hon. gentleman sat down amidst much
cheering.
Sir G. MURRAY said, It certainly was not his intention to follow
the right honourable gentleman through every point of his speech ; he
was anxious only to set the house right on one point ; it was a mit
mistake to suppose that the emigrant derived advantages from the sale
of his timber, as he was prohibited from cutting any quantity
what was equal to the land he brought into cultivation.
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS said. it appeared to him as if the home
had little to do when honourable members began to legislate on mes.
sure which were not to come into force until after some time to come.
Mr. ROBINSON contended that there had already been tiro ninny
experiments tried upon the Canada.. He far one would not consent to
the infliction of another experiment ; and in resisting this experiment
he was disembarrassed of some difficulty. for the noble lord (Althory)
had candidly confessed, that the revenue did not want the money. Ti,,
shipping interests could not bear this experiment to he made. Be was
not contending for any monopoly, for in fact no monopoly costa
And as to beneficing the consumer, let it be borne in mind that the
consumer did not ask for this benefit. (Hear, hear, bur) The
shipping interests bad certainly Punted, and were suffering seven',
So seriously had the shipping interests suffered from the adoption of
what was called the reciprocity system, that the foreign shipping had
increased as the British shipping had diminished. Nor had our infer.
MUM with, or exports to foreign countries increased in consequence e:
the changes adopted in our system. On the contrary, the change had
been beneficial to them without being in any way advantageous to this
country. The United States had not copied our example ; and they
had amongst them some men most sensible and conversant in mercantile
affairs. (Loud cries of Question, question.)
Mr. HENRI= said he could not but make some remarks on this
most important question, for more extraordinary political trimming he
thought had never been witnessed in that house. (Cheers.) The quo.
lion that had been before them, whatever might have been their
expectations, formed no part of the budget. All was changed, and ap.
patently within a few hours. What had occasioned it ? When all ex-
pected that the plan was to be persevered in, suddenly they deserted
the position which they had said they were prepared to defend; but
which they well knew they could not defend. (Cheers.) He would not
I give his opinion as to the duty, it was unnecessary ; but if the question
now before the house went to the vote, he should oppose it. (Hear.)
It was quite impossible for him to give his assent to the proposi.
tion now before the house—and he thought it was as impossible for
• the house to agree to it. The proposition was now brought forward
not as part of the budget—but it was urged as tr.atter of policy. as im.
, proved policy. It tamed out that the Chancellor of the Exchequer
could do without the money which he had considered would result
from the change of these duties—that he was richer than he had ima.
ghsed he should be; but if the noble lord calculated in the improve-
ment that might have evinced itself in the customs within the last
month or two, as likely to continue throughout the year, he was cake-
' lasing on a very poor foundation. He trusted that at least inquiry
would be promoted; but if the question were urged, he should divide
against it.
Mr. WARBURTON said, that on account of the lateness of the hour
he should move that the chairman do quit the chair, and ask leave to sit
again. (Hear, and Question.)
Lord ALT HORP said, that he was astonished at the charge of politi.
cal trick ; it came with very ill grace from such a quarter, especially after
the hon. member for Boroughbridge had complained of the measure as
being the same as the one originally proposed. As to altering the plan in
some degree, what was the use of receiving deputations, if it were pre.
determined to press forward tittle views, whatever additional information
might be received ? In consequence of the information derived from the
deputations, he was satisfied that the advantage he had originally contem-
plated might be accomplished if the plan were gradually carried into effect.
He had therefore gladly taken advan•age of the advice received.
Mr. A TTWOOD said. if the question were adjourned, it must be
subjected to a long adjournment ; he should therefore move, " that the
Chairman do leave the Chair."

There were loud cries of "Divide. divide." The house was very
full. Strangers were then excluded, but no division took place for near
thtee.quariers of an hour afterwards. The debating continued, and in
very elevated tones too; so much so, that the different speakers were
heard in the rooms adjoining the house. At last the division took place
on Mr. Attwood's amendment. The numbers were,
For it 236
Against it 190

Majority against the Ministers
The result was received with loud cheering by the opposition. It is a
complete defeat of the measure ; because the Chairman has no report to
make to the house.

Mr. CAPEL presented a petition from Queenborough, praying that
they may not be disfranchised.
Petitions in favour of reform were presented from Bury St. Edmond's.
a parish in Suffolk, and one from the county by Mr. Tyrrell. Front
the county of Wilts, Stowbridge, Malmesbury, Warminster, Devizes,
Hatfield, and several others by Mr. Benet.
Sir C. FORBES, in remarking on some observations that had been
made on a petition, reprobated the measure proposed by ministers, and
he wondered that the honourable member for Westminster had not
asked the ministry when they meant to resign after the division that bad
just taken place.
Mr C. HOBHOUSR, in answer, said he hoped that the country
would not suffer itseK to be deceived and humbugged by a tricky and
mean divifon' which had been accomplished by an artifice such as had
taken place. Had he entertained the same opinion of the present Minis.
try, as he had of the late:Ministry, he might perhaps have put the ques-
tion to them • but he could now say, that if the present Ministers did
resign, it would be the worst day the country ever saw. The hoe.
Member concluded with taxing the hon. baronet with having always
professed to be ready to support a measure of Reform, although he
now set himself to oppose ir.
Sir CHARLES FORBES, in explanation, said, that be was always
in:favour of Reform, but he was opposed to revolution. (Hear, hear.)
A number of petitions from other places were presented in favour of
Reform, and on other matters.
_ _ _

The Order of the day beirg disposed of, the house adjourned at HALT-
PACT MO.

FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE.
FRANCE.
TIN NATIONAL ASSOCIATION.

We have taken from she Moniteur the following circular
addressed by M. Sers to the Mayors of the department of
Moselle.

METZ, MARCH 9.—A printed document has been cir-
culated throughout your department, and even posted up
at Metz : it is entitled, " National Association for insur-
ing the Independence of the Country, and the per-
petual Expulsion of the eldest Branch of the Bourbons."
It is probable that you will be requested to allow this pla-
card to be posted up in your towns, but I beg that you will
refuse to do so. According to the words of the law of Dec. 10,
1830, no document, either manuscript or printed, and contain-
ing political news, or treating on political subjects, shall be
posted or stuck up in the streets, squares, or public places. The
perpetual expulsion of the eldest branch of the Bourbons
is the first result of the revolution of 1830. Suppose
even that those who originated the association were most
anxious for attaining its objects, it would be only repeating
the effects of a glorious revolution, for the preservation of
which millions of National Guards have armed themselves.
Upon these grounds the Association is not only unneces-
sary, but may become mischievous, by making the inhabi-
tants doubtful as to the stability of the constitutional throne,
upon which the nation has placed Louis Philippe. One of
the grounds is injurious to the authority of those in whew
hands power has been deposited, and the placard may pro-
duce much evil in this way, by wresting from the Govern-
ment that confidence to which it was entitled, and which it
wanted in order to fulfil its duties towards the country.
And what moment is chosen for throwing doubt upon the
vigour and loyalty of the authorities charged with the de-
fence of the country, in case the stranger should threaten it ?
It is when the arsenals are in perfect order and activity—
when the fortresses are every where being put in a fit state of
repair, and whilst every one is bearing testimony to the sod
and activity of the commanders and officers who have the
direction of these matters ; when large purchases of horses
are made every day.for the cavalry and artillery ; when every
individual of you have anticipated the law upon the national
guard, by enrolling yourselves in the corps of your com-
mune; and that 500 young man from this department cams
forward voluntarily to join the last levy. All these prepara-
tions show that the armaments are prosecuted with the saw
activity as if war were inevitable, at the same time that the
declarations of the King's ministers in the Chambers do not
announce it as probable. The stranger is aware (French-
men ought not to doubt it), that if the independence of oar
fine country were menaced, a milliard of swords would
instantly leap from their scabbards to defend it. Ern'

LONDON.
SATURDAY, MARCH 19.

Despatches, dated the 14 eh of October, were this day
received at the Colonial Office, in Downing-street, from
Lieutenant-General DARLING, Governor of New South

Wales.

Despatches were also received this day at the India
Board from Lord WILLIAM BENTINCK, dated Calcutta,
the 12th of October ; at which place the cholera morbus was
making great ravages.

We alluded yesterday to our apprehensions, that the diffi-
culties arising out of the Belgian revolution, and the
existing treaties, by which the great Powers considered
themselves as still bound, were likely soon to develope
bow far peace or war is probable. The preparation
of two ships of war, supposed to be destined to the Scheldt,
fully confirms what we yesterday expressed, as having
reason to credit,—that the purport of the last Protocol,
a copy of which will, no doubt, soon become public,
w•as intended to be very definite in import. Ant-
werp in the hands of the Belgians, is unfortunately
Antwerp in the hands of the French. The difficulty of
avoiding the sacrifice, of what have always been thought the
important commercial interests of the country, and
at the same time of not hazarding a warlike attitude
-- which too often leads to actual war —is great
indeed ; and we can only say, that had we any other Minis-
ters in power but our present, we should consider that war
certain, which we now only consider as possible. In feet,
if the present Ministry were so unfaithful in their views as
to retire, the very first step of their successors would be a
war. They would attempt to drown the cries of Re-
form in the horrid yell of influential contractors,
ship-owners. and loan jobbers. We can remember literally
the horrid yell which took place, to the disgrace of the land,
on the Royal Exchange, when the rupture of the Peace
of Amiens was announced ; and it is easy to see how
useful a sop to the Cerberus of the City, would be
to crush Reform. But it will not—it cannot be crushed ;
tor if nothing else will stand the friend of Freedom, the Na-
tional Debt—if we dare venture on such a violent attempt
at Prollopopceia—is a friend that will not desert its colours,
till Reform he accomplished.
We have heard on good authority, that the force com-
manded by the Duke of SAXE WIEMAIL, in Luxembourg,
very strong.
An

incident took place last night pregnant with conse-
quences. In the House of Commons, 426 members being
Pent, a division on the Timber Duties took place. and
MINISTERS WERE IN A MINORITY Or FORTY-SIX!
NOW, though this is a mixed and collateral question, and
though many friends of Reform might, without compromising
themselves on the Reform question, vote against this plan,
Yet a moral effect will grow out of the decision, dis-

' advantageous to the influence of Ministers in carrying li
the Reform question immediately after. It gives
confidence to the adverse party, which had been cowed by
public opinion, and it tends to create vacillation in the unde-
cided. It is the eve of a great battle; and in a mixed assem-
bly of the House of Commons, it has the same effect as the
previous defeat of a flanking corps would have on an army.
just entering into a conflict with an enemy. In fact, and
it cannot, and ought not to be dissembled, it lowers the
chance of the Reform Bill being carried in the House of
Commons. ,

In such cases it has been usual either to dissolve the
House, or for Ministers to resign ; and the Borough-
mongers after this decision manifested their exultation, and
demanded this sacrifice of Ministers. But when a Ministry
resign on such occasions, it is when they identify the voice
of the Country with that of the House ; but such is not the
fact at this time.

The Ministers enjoy the general confidence of NINETEEN
TW EN TI ET Ii s of the whole population ; and they may con-
fidently appeal from the Parliamentary majority to that of
the Nation.

We do not assume that on this particular question of the
Timber duties, the majority out of doors might be different
from that in the House. The public would connect it with
those absurd and cruel principles of political economy to
which, during the last seven years, every branch of produc-
tive industry, and all the relations of society have been un-
feelingly sacrificed. But it is not a fiscal question which
is now at stake, but the GREAT QUESTION OF RE-
FORM—the escape from social vassalage—the overthrow
of a faction which has for a century availed itself of the
obsolete forms of the Constitution, to plunder the country, and
gratify their insatiable rapacity —it is the overcoming a
system of misrule, alien to all the principles of liberty and
liberality, and revolting to common sense ;—this—this is
the real question at issue ; and it is this point alone which a
patriotic Cabinet, and the People, should look to, in their de-
cisions and conduct at this moment.

For our parts, we should advise an IMMEDIATE DISSOLU-
TION of the PRESENT PARLIAMENT. It was elected under
the WELLINGTON and PEEL Administration; and if it were
previously a question, whether it ought to be entrusted with
the Question of Reform, there can be little doubt, that the
reasons for not confiding that great question to its decision,
are magnified in number and weight by the direct, and in-
direct, effect of the decision of last night.
We have never ceased to express our regret, that
it was not preferred, in reducing obnoxious taxes, to
reduce proportionally the public expenditure, instead of in-
flicting any new taxes, in addition to fiscal burthens already
too heavy to be borne. But perhaps such reduction of ex-
penditure, would only have more closely asked the rapacity
which the Reform Bill is intended to destroy. It might
therefore have been a choice of difficulties"; and then some
wisdom, not practical, suggested the taxes which have been
successively impugned.

We consider all the circumstances, therefore, as further
proof of the necessity of the Reform Bill being carried, and
finally conclude that its success will be endangered, IF TYE
SECOND READING BE ENTRUSTED TO THIS HOUSE OF
COMMONS.

Perhaps Ministers may, however, prefer to take the
chances of a division ; and if it be unfavourable to the measure
on which all sensible men have set their hearts, and hopes, a
dissolution may afterwards be preferred, to one at this crisis.
We cannot conceive any thing so fatal to the interests of
the country, as the resignation of the Ministry, in conse-
quence of this casual " untorvard" division, would prove.
They can have no occasion—we could almost say they have
no right—to retire from the offices which they occupy, so
evidently to the satisfaction of the whole empire ; and whe-
ther proximately or more remotely, the dissolution of the
present Parliament ought to be the alternative.

In the Loans last night the CHANCELLOR presented nu-
merous addresses,in behalf of the Reform Bill, making as he
said, 147, and he had other 47 in his hands.

Lord MELBOURN brought in his bill for repealing the
Sub-letting Act, and for substituting other provisions. For
its details we refer to the speech. Lord CA kiltRRI" ap-
proved, but Lord WICKLOW expressed his decided opposi-
sition to the new provisions, and stated that he should pre-
fer no law at all.

Lord KING presented various petitions against the tythe
system ; and replied with his usual piquancy against some
arguments of the Bishop of BRISTOL.
In the House of Commons, various strong statements were
made in regard to the domestic distress of Mayo, and other
districts of Ireland, by Mr. D. BROWN E, Mr. J. SMITH,
Sir R. BATESON, Mr. GRATTAN, Mr. G. Dswsosr, Mr.
O'CowirELL, and others. Lord ALTIIORP expressed the
willingness of Government to do all that is possible.
Mr. RUTH V EN, supported by Mr. HUNT, presented a
spirited petition from Yorkshire, against the taxes on news-
papers and paper.
On the motion of Mr. Hums, it was agreed that the
house should meet to-day to receive petitions.
A long conversation then ensued, about the Colonial In-
tercourse Act, which met with opposition from Mr. ROBIN-
sox, Mr Hums, and other practical men.
Ina Committee, Lord ALTHORP moved a Resolution,
on the timber duties, which he justified by various state-
ments ; and proposed that five shillings per annum for
three years, should be taken from the Baltic duties, leaving
the Canada duties as at present. This was followed by a
debate, in which Mr. ATTWOOD and Mr. P. THOMPSON
spoke at great length, against and for the measure.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY, Mr. K. DOUGLAS, Mr. ROBIN-
SON, and Mr. HERairs, spoke successively against the
resolution. Mr. Arrwoon then moved that the Chairman
leave the Chair; in which he was supported by Sir R. PEEL.
Lord PALMERSTON, and Mr. Rica supported qr Bill, and
Mr. GOVLBURN opposed it. A division then took place-
-236 in favour of Mr. ArTwoon's amendment, and 190
against it, majority 46 against Ministers !
Sir C. Fousza then insinuated, that after so decisive a

defeat, Ministers ought to resign a suggestion which was'
warmly repelled by Mr. HounousE.
After receiving various petitions, the house adjourned at
HALF-PAST TWO.

We are happy to observe that Patriotic Associations are
forming, to secure returns of honest Candidates, if it be-
come necessary to dissolve the House. One is advertised
in London, of which Sir FRANCIS BURDETT and several
Members are on the Committee; and we are likewise pleased
to observe among the names, that of the venerable Bax-
THAm. Another is announced at Manchester, to which the
enlightened brothers, the POTTERS, hare subscribed £5OO,
' and other gentlemen £2OO and £lOO each. Similar asso-
ciations ought to pervade the Country—every County, City,
Town, and Parish, ought to assemble, and contribute libe-
rally, to overthrow a system which, within a century, has,
in taxation, aided in making about three thousand millions
of property change hands. By this means, if necessary,
we may effect a temporary reform, to obtain a permanent
one. In a word, the BRITISH LION IS NOW ROUSED;
and he will, we trust, not sleep again, till the constitution is
purged from these morbid parts, and a vigorous and healthy
restoration effected.

CITY, ONE O'CLOCK.
Ministers being in the minority last night on the Timber
Duties, with six sail of the line being got ready to proceed
to the Scheldt, has caused great anxiety this morning in
the City ; and has had some effect on the Funds. Various
are the opinions on these events ; and it is thought that it
will be the cause of a Dissolution of Parliament.

Consols, which left off yesterday at 76l for the account,
opened at 75i, went up again to 761; at present they are
at 76 toe.

In the Foreign Market nothing doing as yet.
HALF-PAST ONE.
The last price of Consols, 751 for account, for money
761.

New South Wales Papers to the 15th October have been
received at the North and South American Coffee-house.
We give an extract : —" The crops never did in any country
in the world exhibit a more luxuriant aspect than is at the
moment presented by the agricultural districts of New South
Wales : from every quarter we hear the most flattering ac-
counts.

It is now fully ascertained that the bush rangers at Ba-
thurst have not been joined, as was rumoured, by any of
the prisoners belonging to Wellington Valley, or by any of
the road gangs.

CITY. rwo mccocr.
Up to the present hour we have nothing official in regard
to the six sail of the line or heavy frigates going to the
Scheldt, but there is a great deal of the on dit on the sub-
ject among our City politicians.
Consols appear to continue to remain steady at 751 for
the account, and 76A to i for money. In the Foreign
Market little or nothing doing.
The American Papers are not as yet arrived.

•
ARMY.— The Third Regiment of Foot Guards is to be
formed into a Battalion of Light Infantry ; and the Cold-
stream Guards are in future to be accoutred as a Highland
regiment.

?AJESTL

- ------- - ---
WINDSOR, MARCH 18.—Their MAJESTIES left the
Castle at three o'clock this afternoon, in a double-bodied
phaeton, accompanied by Miss BAGOT and Prince GEORGE
of CAMBRIDGE, who rode on horseback. The royal
party proceeded towards Bishopsgate and Cumberland
Lodge • and as the weather this afternoon proved unusually
fine, their MAJESTIES extended their drive to Virginia
Water, and did not return to the Castle before six o'clock.
In the evening General Sir JOHN Goat, Lady Goat,
Colonel LTGON of the 2d Life Guards, and Colonel WED-
DERBURN of the Coldstream Guards, will have the honour
of dining with their MAJESTIES. On Monday next a splen-
did entertainment is expected to take place at the Castle ;
and on the following day their MAJESTIES will leave for St.
James's Palace, and are rnt expected to return till the fol-
lowing Friday.

THE QUERN'S DRAWING ROOM.
Lord Chamberlain's Office, Merck 17, 1831.
Notice is hereby given, that the Ladies to be presented to the
QuEitsr at the ensuing Drawing-room are first to be presented
to the KING, and they are, therefore, requested to bringwith
them threecards, one to be delivered to the Page in waiting in
the Presence-Chamber lending to the Drawing-room, one
to the Lord in Waiting to the KING, who will present the
lady to his MAJErrv, and the third card to the Lord Cham-
berlain to the QuEEN, who will present the lady to her
MAJtSTY.

DOV Rit, March 18.
His Excellency Lord ERSKINE, with Lady ERSKINE,
daughters, and suite, arrived last night at Wright's Ship
Hotel, from Calais, by his Majesty's mail packet, Salaman-
der, Capt. HAMILTON. His Excellency did not leave for
town until this morning. The customary honours
were shown, and a guard of honour placed at the hotel.
Although the weather has been rather tempestuous lately,
the arrivals from, and departures to, the Continent have
been numerous ; and we are happy to learn from persons
passing, that every confidence is felt that the peace which
has so long and happily existed, will not be disturbed.

NAVAL I\TELLL,ENCR.
Macs Agana Tins Dar—Dublin, 1 ; Waterford. 1.
Mum, Maass In —Wind N W—Arrived the Gilmore, Gary.
from New Smith Wales—sailed the 24th October. Sailed the outward
bound.

Po RTSSOUTH. MA Ice 18.—Wind W. N. W . to N. N. W.—Arrived
the Sir Charles Forbes. Leslie. from Batavia, leaky—sailed 17th Nov•
and from St. Helena 26th Jan. Sailed the Parmelia transport, for
London.

PLYMOUTH. 111Aactt 17.—Wind SW. to W.

Doses, Mimi( i a—Arrived the MlCTCUritill, .--. from DM!.
rara ; Camilla, fides, from Charleston ; and Fre &luta, —, from
Cephalonia.
DARTIMUTU, Masco 17. A rrived the St. Maria di Porto, Salvo.
from Naples. with damage, and part of the cargo pumped up. Off
the port, the Catherine, Thatcher, from Mobile.
PZIKANCI, MARCH 17.—Arrived the Betsey, Tanner, from Gijon.
Micro's!), Mooch 18.—Arrived the Bonne Mere, CockereU, from
Demerara.

Lyntarooc, MARCH 17.—Arrived the Arethusa, MlDowald. from
Porto Cabello, and Cora, Morrison, from Mobile. Off the port, the
Othello, Tucker, from Savannah ; Charlemagne, and John Jay, from
New York.

Gasemocr, Maac“ 16. Arrived the Symmetry, Dale, from St.
John's (N. H.) with loss of anchor, cable, nd sails ; and the superb.
Cunningham, from Marseilles.
The Hannibal, Hepburn. from London ; Pune, Croehey ; James
Cropper, Garey ; Birmingham, Harris ; Bingham. Boehley; and the
Mersey, Brown, from Uverponi, have all arrived at New York.
Prince Leopold gave a grand dinner party last evening at
Marlborough-house, to a numerous party of the Nobility
and Gentry.
The Cabinet Council held at the Foreign-office on Thurs-
day night, sat in deliberation till twelve o'clock.
The Brazilian Ambassador and the Spanish Minister had
interviews with Viscount Palmerston yesterday, at the Fo-
reign Office.
The Wurtemburg Minister transacted business yesterday
at the office of the Secretary of State for Foreign Affairs.

SPIRIT eF THE JOURNALS.

Trans.—We really have not been sorry to avoid noticing, with very
earnest care, the ever-varying aspect of the political horizon abroad, and
of being obliged to announce to.d.,y the appearance of that which might
be wholly out of sight to-morrow. We open our eyes, however, now,
though unwillingly, to a scene of some danger. The tumults of Wry,
and the unsettled disputes of Belgium and Holland, do seem at last to be
upon the eve of calling for the interference of neighbouring states.
Antwerp is a place from whence we may be annoyed beyond all
conception. It is what Buonaparte called, "le pirfolet ewe k seise WAR.
Oelerre." It in ro mean degree menaces the legitimate grandeur of
France, for the whole width of Belgium Is between that city and the
French frontier. We are not, therefore, surprised to learn that •
British fleet, consisting of six nil of the line, with other vessels, are
ordered for the Scheldt—that scene of Lord Castlereagh's and hewed
Chatham's glory. What an ominous recollection ! With respect to
Italy, the Austrians were, no doubt, preparing to pass the Po, accord.
ing to the last accounts of the diplomatic agents, and may therefore, by
the, time, have arrived at Modena. Is it possible that the rumour
which we noticed some time ago can be correct°, that the Emperor
Francis hopes to keep Louis Philip quiet, by the menace of starting
the young Napoleon against him, if he objects to Austria's settling
the movements in Italy according to her own taste? It would be a
sinister omen for the young, perhaps the involuntary, aspirant to the
French thtone, to adopt as the aceuntion against its present occupant,
that he did not readily accede to the aggrandizement of Austria in Italy!
If the Court of Vienna have put forth such a threat, the policy of
Metternich is as shallow and inconsistent as it is mean and crooked.—
Our movements, we trust, will be all defensive. Large steam vessels
will effect all the objects we wish, which are of a negative kind,—that
we be not molested, and be not put in a si ustion in which we shall be
exposed to future molestation. In relation to our foreign concerns, we
want nothing but what we beret—nothing, nothing, nothing. And what
we have, we have of right, and with the consent of Europe ; and well
we have deserved it.

• We shall feel obliged by any reader of the Timer pointing out to
us in what number of that Journal, the rumour in question was noticed.
We are tolerably close readers of that Journal, and do not recollect
such an allusion. It has been twice lately mentioned in the STAR.
CBROXICLE.—The Boroughmongers care for nothing but their own
dirty interests, and buoying themselves up with die hope of the effect
which a majority against Ministers, no matter how obtained, might
produce, they join the Shipowners and West Indians with their whole
strength. But the effect will only prove more strongly to the people,
the necessity of supporting Ministers with all their heart and soul,
that the country may be rescued from combinations which have -o
much the power of impeding its welfare. This factious and dishonest
display must make it evident to all, who are not absolutely devoid of
discernment, that whatever interests are represented in the Bosom of
Commons, the interest of the people of England is not one of them.
We have the Shipping Interest, the West India Interest, the Bomugi--
monger Interest—all pulling together; and Ministers defeated only
because they defend the merest of the people.
sdes.—We see some attempt was made last night to take advan.
tags of the majority against the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and a
salt of insinuation was thrown out that the Ministers should resign.
Of course the Ministers will not be so monstrously absurd—we had
almost said, so madly wicked. What, resign ! with the whole nation
cheering them on to consummate their nobly-begun plan of Reform !
We quite agree with the Member for Westminster, that the resigna-
tion of Ministers would be at this motneut the greatest calamity that
could be inflicted on the country. But the notion is too absurd to
waste another word upon It.

Post.—The presumptuous and incapable set of men who have for
four months been attempting to admintstet the affairs of the country
sustained a signal and decisive defeat last night in the House of Com-
mons. In a very full house they found themselves in a minority of
forty-six upon the question of the Timber Duties, the numbers being
236 against 190. Of the memorable Budget, than which it may safely be
affirmed a more extraordinary tissue of ignorance and absurdity never in.
suited the common sense of the country—of this memorable budget nearly
every proposition has been abandoned without a struggle or murmur.
The first on which its authors ventured to make a shew of resistance has
been the timber duties, a scheme scantly less dangerous or pernicious
than the attempted attack upon the funds. We say a shew of resistance,
for on this solitary point they were far from venturing to maintain their
original position. It will be seen by onr report that the scheme was
very materially modified, and so presented as to make it appear that to
oppose it would he to oppose the takin off a tax. The bait, however,
failed ; and the measure was rejected altogether in the most contemptu-
ous manner, by a motion made by Mr. Attwood, " that the chairman
do leave the chair.* Of' the budget schemes for laying on taxation
all are now " gone on the wind's wings," save one, which alone remains
to meet the same melancholy fate—that one being he happily-imagined
tax upon steam-boats ! An unreformed Parliament having thus pt..
served the property of the fundholder, and rescued the shipping interest,
England's great bulwark, from destruction (who can now doubt the
glorious fact ?) maintain for us that constitution which is identical
with the power and happiness of our country.

ADVERTISE a.. .The state paupers have actually succeeded in getting
up three meetings against Reform, and ate actually trying to get up a
fourth. Only think of this, friends of Reform ! and think at the lame
time that the meetings which have been held are those of the Corpora-
tion of Rochester, of the Corporation of Dublin, and of the Corpora-
tion of Cork, and that the fourth meeting which they are attempting
to get up is one composed of " merchants, bankers, and others, inksbi.
tants of London and Its vicinity." The first three may be considered as
fair and open meetings of the parties, held with doors closed against
the public, and therefore certain to be all but unanimous ; but we
really do too much honour to the " merchants, bankers, and others,
inhabitants of London and its Vicinity," when we awe
that they are about to hold a meeting to petition against reform.
They will do no such thing—they cannot hold an open meeting—they
have not the courage to expose themselves to the public gaze, and en.
counter the public odium and contempt—they dare not Inert the adro.
cafes of Reform face to face ; and they have, in consequence, got up a
petition in a hole-and-corner fashion, without debate or agreement, ex-
cept ameng some two or three rotten members of the community, and
' deposited it for signature at the Thatched House Tavern, where it
may remain till Doomsday, without any rational person detaining of
any thing else than examining the signatures to it. The de.
' seription of persons who are to sign it, remind us vastly of
the treatise "de oesnibsts rebus el quibstsdime a iu ; " foe, not u me. t
with including "aterchostie, bassi ere, aid *arra. of Me city ad /.widets.-
the poor creatures are absolutely obliged to go to the " arriailb," at the
hope of gathering a few names, and much in the same fashion as we have
seen a dunghill cock scraping the ashes for garbage, when food of a
better quality had failed him. if they were wise they would It t the
matter alone ; fur it is all up with them, even now, and if they irritate
the public mind by such pitiful proceedings, we tell them plain:y that
wore thing may befal them. The people of England have withal re.
form, and their gracious sovereign has willed it, and who is there to
oppose their determination ?

COSIETT.--lANd Chatham said, more than fifty years ago, that, " if
the House did not reform itself from within, it would be lefunned from
without with a vengeance." It will be, to a certainty, reformed from
wiffseen; but, happily for the conntry, not with a vengeance; but silt
gentleness, good-humour, moderation, and harmony, nnpatalleled..—
It certainly is what not one man out of fifty thousand ever expected
to see ; and, if the measure be carried into full effect, it will eviler'
honour indescribable on the character of the countty; honour on tie
Kinimmatubis Ministers; honour on a large part or the Parramenr:
but ron the people beyond all description. Its enemies call
it a revolution; ro it is ten times as great and ten times as good as
the revolution of 1688. Revolution means great change; ar.d here
is a great change ; effected, too, without a single commotion ;
without confiscation of any sort; without punishment infi vetl on any
latdy. No nation upon earth ever did a thing reflecting so mut It hon-
our upon itself. It is clear to every one that knew. how to calculate.
that the people could demand a great deal more of the aristocracy than
they are now demanding; but, as I have a thourard times said, deal
frankly and liberally by them, and you have nothing to apprehend front
their demands. 'I his j 'mice to the people lam been delayed very long,
to he sure : there would have been less diffictil.v in the sequel than them
will be now, if the reform had taken place in 1817 ; but still it is row
made in so frank and gracious a manner. that pest tefussla and past
harsh treatment will he wholly forgotten by the nation at large. We
shall do, I trust, as bickering families tin, forget past grounds of
animosity, except where the parties persevere in their mal:goity. and
every man do his best to cause the nation to be restored t , iu torture
happy state.

Their Majesties will visit the King's Theatre on Tus,d;iy
next.

It is with great concern we state the sudden indisposition
of Sir WALTER Scorr : the highly-gifted Baronet has had
a p uralytic stroke.
The Duke and Duchess of Northumberland pave a
sumptuous entertainment to a distinguished tarty yt steiday
evening, at Northumberland House.

'I he election for Common Pleader took pace yesterday.
at Guildhall. The numbers were—
For Mr. Randell
Mr. Burnaby
Mr. Bodkia

106
67
40

Orders were received in Glasgow on Friday for 21 regi-
ments to discoptinuc recruiting. No notification of their
being complete (though it is !robsb's they may be so)
accompanied the order.
DEAYNESS.—MT. Curtis, Abrist iu Ordinary to his Ma-
jesty, has just published a Fifth Edition of his excellent Treatise on
Diseases of the Bar. This Edition contains much newlsad imparaust
Information, and will be found highly interesting to those laced
with any Defect of Hearing.