Star.
London, England, 1812-03-04 00:00:00

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!canoe ci tliek comrame was so rithie the better,
for “ he would have soldiers and peasants alone."_.
It was also to be collected from the publication of
his minister, Talleyrand, in which be maintained the
superiority of agriculture to commerce since the
stormy period of the revolution ; the latter having a
tendency to unite men, the former to separates to
dispirit, and tranquillize them. His system was war
with commerce ; with commerce as with liberty ; '
1 with the mother as with the child ; with those prin.
Iciples which were favourable to the world he hated ;
and inimical to the power he had usurped. He (Mrs
Brougham) was not disposed to believe him (Bona-
Owe), -or his new made Duke, upon their own bare
avpwal, for it was easy to suppose the case of a
?since and Minister of France presenting such a
compound of villainy and fraud . to the world, as to
render us tl,e more guarded in proportion as their
vows and oaths were more positive and awful. But
the system of Bonaparte being, from the evidence of
facts, inch as he had described, they were next to
t enquire, wriat system it was natural for England to
adopt, on the other hand.? 'Pre obvious policy of
England was to encourage commerce by all means
in her power, and to encourage the trade of neutrals.
Not of the neutrals most contiguous to France, and
therefore most exposed to its power, but of that neu-
tral which Was separated from France by an ocean,
impa§siblc to her, owning the same interests, and
speaking the same language with Ergland, and be-
ing the only nation, beside ourselves, in which free.
dom could be found. It was lamentable to consider
1 how entirely the reverse of those measures wassadopt-
I ed. We had not only not clore our best to secure
the neutrality of that Power, but we had adopted a
system against neutrals which went to obl.ge theni
immediately to declare for cm side cr other. He
should say nothing upon the negociafons still pend-
ing with that country, but could not help regretting
having beard on a hue occasion that the hopes of a
successful issue Were represented as slender. But
linking to the effects of the system we had pursued,
they would find by the papers laid before the House
in 1809, that the whole of the imports and exports
of 1808, as compared with those of 1807, fell short
by no less an amount than fifteen millions. It was
found necessary in 1809 to substitute a blockade to
a limited extent, which was done by the measure of
the !6th of April in that year. This measure he con-
tended was in effect getting rid by one sweep of the'
whole principle of the Orders in Council. The prin-
ciple was to cripple the French commerce, but this,
by opening an inlet to their commerce, defeated the
principle. As to the flourishing representations of our
trade in 1809, he would set against them the seizure
of our vessels by the enemy in 1810, by which up-
wards of nine millions sterling was lost to this coun-
try. The seven millions Droits of Admiralty which
we had taken from our friends and natural allies in
the course of eighteen years of war, was more than
counterbalanced by this fatal seizure of Bonaparte.
He denied that Bonaparte had gone on relaxing his
decrees-after the paring down of our Orders in Coun-
cil. In 1809 vie relieved the pressure on his com-
' merce, and in 1810 he came out with two measnres,
ten thousand times more strict and more pressing on
his commerce and our own. He ridiculed the Bark
Bill as an attack upon the humanity of Bonaparte,
by persons who had always denied him the possession
of such a feeling. He should next proceed to state
the facts on which his inferences were built, though
the numberless petitions preparing in many parts of
the country, the list of banktuptcies, which was dou-
bled since the Orders in Council, the list of the poor,
which had increased in Liverpool to sixteen times its
former amount, were facts, which would bear him
out, even in the teeth of the returns upon the table.
—He could not shut his ears to the cries of the poor
people; he could not be indifferent to the petitions
which would shortly come from Warwickshire,York-
shire, Nottinghamshire, and parts of Scotland ; nor
could he look upon the returns of Mr. Irvine as of
greater authority ; he might be called the saviour of
the nation ; the Gazettes might be represented as
mistaken; thecountry might beheld up asiburishi ng,
commercial, and gay, but it must be in defiance of all
those proofs ofmisery whichobtruded themselvesdaily
before their eyes But let them see what wasthe state of
things in 1841,even by the documentsof Mr.lrvinehim-
self. The official value of the exports for 3 quarters of
the year 1810, was £27,000,000. The official value
of the exports for the three corresponding quarters of
the year 1811, was only £16,000,000, being a falling
off of £11,000,000 in the three quarters, and by cal-
culation, a falling off of 14. or £15,000,000 in the
whole year of official value; or about 5e21,000,000
real value. The answer to all this, it seemed, was,
that there had been no considerable falling off in the
exports of last year, as compared with the exports of
1809. It would appear, however, that the difference
was only £:4000,000, and that the exports of the
three quarters of the year 1810 were to the amount
of £9,000,000 less than the exports of the three cor-
responding quarters of 1809. But he would go back
to a comparison of 1808 ; and the House would recol-
lect that that was the very worst year of exports.-
1 befalling off oftheexportsoflBoBbeingi€l.s,ooo,ooo,
as compared with 1807. In the three quarters of
1808 the exports were 818,000,000. In the three
quarters of 1811, £16.000,000, being a difference in
real value of ie'2,500,000. With respect to the ex-
ports SA South America, the House had only the
Custom-house returns, which could not be considered
as a fair test of the real trade. By those returns it
would appear, that the official value of the exports
in 1811, to America, exclusive of the United States
and the West Indies,exceeded those of 1807 by eight
millions. How little harmonious was this statement
from the Custom-house, with the actual situation of
the Country ! Those who did not pin their faith to
Mr. Irvine's books, when they saw the wretched-
ness that prevailed in the Country, could not help
suspecting that those exports went to a market not
open to receive them. '1 he great excess of importa-
tion in the succeeding year strongly confirmed this
suspicion. - He proceeded to consider the relaxation
of the Orders in Council under the name of Trade
Licences, a relaxation which spewed a complete
want of confidence in the success of the original mea-
sures. The increase nt the Licences was prodigious.
In 107, 1,600 were issued ; in 1811, no less than
18,000, than- subjecting the whole foreign trade of
the country to 'a new system. What was the natu-
ral result of these licences' as they affected the ene-
my, neutral powers, and this country ? With regard
to site enemy, in pi aportion to the ertent of the licen-

at seas the principle of the etraers in Nana ahan-
doned. iVith regard to neutral powers, the system
is Ided to benefit those alone who were under the in-
fluence of France, and to whom France looked for
the support of her Marine. With respect to this
country, the effect on our shipping would be appa-
rent, by a comparison of the British and foreige ship-
ping employed in 1806, with the British and &rein
shipping which had been employed in 1810. By
this comparison it would appear that in that period
the amount of foreign tonnage and foreign shipping
had more than doubled; being at the first period.
567,000 tons of shipping, and 29,000 seamen; • and
being, in 1810, 1,138,000 tons of shipping, and silty.
thousand seamen. The British ship owners, as the
memorials from Hull, Shields, &c. sufficiently tests-
bed, sustained thereby the greatest injury. A con-
siderable diminution had taken place in the budding
of merchant ships. In 1805, ships were built to the
amount of 90,000 tons. In 1610, to the amount of
only 61,000 tons. By the system that had been pus-
iced, the trade had been thrown out of the !taintless
and distant power of America, into the hands of
those near us, and ready to assist France in her hoiti-1
lity. Nothing could be more annoying and injurious
to the trade of this country, than the systematic, and
every day's interference with it to which the Execu-
tive Government had resorted. The President and
Vice-President of the Board of Trade, were at present
the great merchants of the ccuntry, and not the resi-
dents in London, Liverpool, or Hull. They em-
ployed their mornings not in devising the means of
protecting British merchants, of annoying those of
the enemy, or of diminishing the hostility of neutrals,
but in making assortments of cargoes, an occupation
to which, with all due respect to them, he conceived
that they were wholly incompetent. He did not ob-
ject to the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite on the
ground of his political or natural but his mercantile
incapacity. The habits of his life had AS little fitted him I
for the task which he had undertekeneas a Right.H.on.
Secretary of the Treacury who had lately come out as
an eminent poet, and in his ( Mr. B's) opinion been fitted
by his habits for the task which he had undertaken. It
was really ridiculous to contemplate the Noble Lord
at the head of the Board of Trade, settling tbe vari-
ous component parts of a cargo. Sometimes deter-
mining
that it should consist ,of wool, scisears, nails,
and cotton twist ; •then hesitating whether or not to '
leave out the scissars ; and finally, perhaps, deter-I
mining to omit the nails, and allow the scrs.ars to be i
included. He did ink impute any abuse in the gran-
ting of licences ; he did not mean to accuse Govern.
ment of partiality, in that respect. But it vas evi-
dent, that these merchants who were consulted by
the Board of Trade on the perpetual changes that
were taking place, must have very little cunning, ilj
they could not make a probable guess With.respect to!
the projected prohibitions and admission:, which to
them would be just as great a bonus as any stock-
brokers would receive,‘to %%horn the Chancellor of the
Exchequer might communica:e the terms en which
he meant to fund Exchequer Bilis, or to contract for
the sale of the lottery. The merchants also consul-
ted by the Board of Trade were not such men as the
Member for Worcester, or the Members for the City
of London. No ; those who were seen clearing out-
wards and inwards at the office were generally neu-
trals and their agents, jobbers and brokers from
Duke's Place. These mere the persons whom the
Board of Trade thought proper to consult in their
commercial regulations. By the perpetual changes
in their regulations, the enemy were continually ena-
bled to anticipate and frustrate our wishes. But the
most deplorable effect which the new system had,
was on the morals of those who were employed under
it. It had been said by a high authority (Sir W.
Scott) that it was a series of simulation and dissimu-
lation from beginning to end. It would have been
still more accurately described, had it been called a
system beginning in forgery, coilinuing in perjury,
and conversant with every description of fraud and
enormity. He described the nature of the licences
and the deceptions which were practised under them,,
(reading a circular letter which had been sent to va-
rious merchants in London, from persons who ac-
tually professed to estrblish themselves for the sole
purpose of making simulated papers). If this was
the kind of victory which our commerce was to enjoy
over the designs _of Bonaparte, he disclaimed any
share in the triumph. After dwelling at considerable
length on these and similar points, he concluded by
moving—, That a Select Committee be appobsted
for the purpose of !lilting into consideration the pre-
sent state of the commerce and manufactures of the
country, particularly with reference to the Orders in
Council, and the License Trade,"
Mr. ROSE was anxious to make some statements
of fact, which, he was persuaded, would do away all
the effect of the arguments so ably urged by the
Hon. Gentleman. He did not deny. that the mint'.
lecturing districts of the country experienced much
distress, particularly Birmingham, the trade of sell; c h
place depends materially en the connection- ith
America. But when the Honourable Gentleman
contended, that that distress originated in the
Orders in Council, and was a ground for their repeal,
he would ask him, what were the facts on which he
founded that statement ? He would refer to the
papers on the table ; and he must observe, that the
Hon. Gentleman questioned the accuracy of bar.
Irvine's figures, only when they opposed his state-
ments, 'and not when they seemed to support them.
For his part he never knew the correctness of the
Custom-house accounts doubted, nor could he allow
that they weteat all liable to the objections of the Hon.
Gentleman. What did these accounts state? The Or-
ders inCouncil were issued in 1807 ? The accounts stated
that is 1807 the general exports were £35,800,000 ;
that in 1808 they were £34,800,000; that in 1809
they grew to £50,000,000 ; and in 1810 they were
845,000,000. All this was official value, so that the
increase in teal value was near £30,000,000. The
Hon. Gentleman said, however, that although the
general exports might be increased, yet the particu-
lar exports to America were decreased. How was
this borne out by the accounts ? In 1807 the whole
of the exports to all America and the West Indies,
amounted to £14,000,000. In 18u8 to g 15,800,000-
In 1809 (in which year the non-intercourse act took
• place in• America) to £19,200,000, and in 1810, to
£20,418,000, making a difference between the years
1807 and 1810, of A 6,000,000 sterling in the exports
to all America, and chiefly attributable to the in-
crease of exports to South America. Did he then
mean to infer that we ought to be indifferent with

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',respect to oar coskisecon with • Stites ),
By 1110 means. OR the Contrary, he had `
41w ay taiA.
that the interests of Graz Britain and the ;;,te,,,,
of the United States were c.loselv cannot-4114i:
was too much to expect that we should allow A.Z
rica to treat as in a manner different from other te„,L
tries. The Hon. Cr:lnman had been very witty
his description of the people who he stipi,„st,'
consulted by the Board of Trade. He c uld
the Honourable Gentleman, however, that he ew
completely misnaken• With respect to the mr;
which he (Mr. R.) kept ; nor was the assortment
Cargoes the morning's occupation of his Wolk Friend
and himself. A considerable portion of their tau
was taken up in considering what articles it war„nd
be safe and proper to allow to be impc.red into des
ountry. The Honourable Gentleman alisterb2.l that
the British shipping had been injured by the sive%
of licences. The accettuts on the table, h
osteti
She We‘i that there were 200,000 tows of Bridal .11.-.0„
'ping, and fourteen thousand British seaaren
!e.l, more than whin the Ordeis its Coaued were pro,
!mulgated. He admitted that the toreiga atirepoit•
had increased in great proportion. But if breads
shipping had not ken cmp:oyed, what would h,,
become of our commerce? How could it have bps
carried on with those ports which woe shut aging
the British shipping ? Would Government have bee
justified in letting the manufactures of the ay
perish in warehouses, rather than elk.• and swami
them to be transported to those ports iu tore ga
ping? That the British shipping was eau*,
employed, was evident from the increased rate d
transports. In 1807 the rate was 19s. paten ;
at
present it was 255. He understood also that at
a place the most likely to be affected, there was ant
a ship which was not either actually employed, ca.
I about to be taken up. In this respect too, the teide
I with the Spanish and Portuguese settlements in finale
jAmerica, would be snore advantageous to this caw
try than the trade with the United Stares.orly from
17th to a 23d part of which was carried on is
'shipping. When the cortr.e:cial treaty. 41797 visa
concluded with Americ.'. it nas on the jeude„.4
reciprocal advantage. By end treaty it was plaided
that the duties in each country uon the impradas
from the other should be dim !t.i bed 10 per cabs Opel
the existing duties. No sooner however was this turf
concluded, than America doubled her data?., rrhid
I arnourired to n.!arly a prohibition of British goods.;,
By trading with the Spanish, and Potutguete
'rents in South America, this country would get a.
vigation, end it would get mercantile profits. Na.
ithing coal,' be more clear than the disainantagenta
I situraion in which Great Britain would have hew
j placed, but for the Orders in Council. FrAnorroold
thca have had the benefit that trade from Mich
iwe shmild have been reciiidell.' She would hare
amply tarnished Issue! from America with dila
she requ red ; with raw 'maenads for her mane n
tures, and particularly with cotton, for the impeft
tio4 of vnitch she bad tecently shewn the trent
anxiety. What had been the origin of the Omen is
Council? France had said that there should be a
trade to. England. OUT answer was (an anseer e halt
we had the power to chfnrce) that nothing should ;•,a
to France which did not coax from her to Englond.
—We had a right to say to neutral prawn, the
if they tolerated a regulation of one of the beligo
rents inimical to our commercial interests, they mile
tolerate a regulation outer part In defence of Ursa
interests. Nothing hostile was irtended towards Ame.,
rice. On the contrary, every degree cf attentionand
kindness was shewn to her by Great Britain. Tin
conduct of France towards America was directly&
reverse. Not content with the Berlin Decree, sot
proceeded to burn American property at tel, sal
then issued the Milan Decree, which subjected a
confiscation all neutral vessels that pen/rued thaw
selves to be searched. It has been said, that the
French degrees had been revolcd ; but on no tom
dation. In a recent prize cause, on a vessel called
the Catherina Augusta, it was allowed that the Ber-
lin and Milan Decrees had not been rescinded. Al
American vessel in ballast, from Charlestown, had
also been carried into Calais; and no longer ago the
November last, the Captain and Owner presented a
petition to Congress, praying their interposition, sag
sledging that the vessel so captured was tektite
the sole ground of a supposed infraction of the Leila
and Milan Decree!. But the House was told, that
there had been no condemnations in France an&

those Decrees. Of this he could not speak; betas
0113 would deny that time had trei.st segos.
trat.. ons• to a considriable amount. It a.as prey
nearly the same thing. Every syllable which ths
Honourable Gentleman had uttered of the salio
of simulated papers was applicable to the period-IP.
fore the Orders in Cnurcil aid the Trade Lidos
vii4e-isoted ; and he would state, without fear of ow
tradictinn, that the latter had very much checked die
perjury and fraud complained ot. Before the liceasn
were issued, it was necessary for eiery Captain ors
:hip to take an oath at the Custom.house, relative*
the size of his ship and the number of his mar. This
was discontinued, a:id he knew of no Wel stibba.
tlited.—To all those shocking perjuries which w.. 2
formerly frequent in Doctors' Commons, flew WAS
now no temptation. He had enquired p.r.iceisk
intn the subject, and he was assured, by Masters
sf
neutral vessels; that they were not called upcia
make any afftdavita cat the other si4' of the Water."".'
Under these circumstances was it fair fur the Ho.
Gentleman to come down and brand th: canosa
character with the imputation of systeniaticapaZ
Were the Orders in •Counc 11 and the licences
then indeed the country vinuld re urn to that gr.°
of neutralization under which perjures wereforrwrlT
t.) frequent. Reverting to the distresses tithe mane.
facturers, he expressed his persuasion that oat arts
had been used to make the suffering indivientals t+►
.
lieve that these evils orignated in the Ordeck-(1
Councils. Those persons had 'certainly borne asec
distresses with A patience and a 'fortitude which eir
titled their present complaints to the most iiwitsi`
gest attention—but it was irnrossibk to convince
him that the greater part of. the inclividnals she
put their names to a petition against the Orders
Council, were at all aware of the mode in wirch thno
orders operated—and of this he Imo assured, that
their suttelings would be materially Id!
those ()reefs rescinaed. The sistem the Goal;
ment had adopted WAS one of self-defince, they 1115
no alieruative between having recourse to it sad a"
entire renunciation of our trade. No doubt our !g,'
' ports were-lower this year than the last, bet WO.

.

had teen the result or an excessive exportation in the
foam • Though the amount of •eaporta had been
yeti.uted from Last yam, yet it Was more by twenty.
'four than that of 1803 and 16044 Yet at n 1 i-
tiler of those 'mods had the ruin of the country Wilt
vontemplated as approachn:ig. He could not perceive
- under such al Cumst inces, for

ers in Council, brit what Orders in Council were
they ? Every one on his side of the Thinie‘vis at a
lass 16 know whether* were those ofltntiaty, T 607,
nr of April, 1809 ; was the Committee to distinguish
for him ? But what were the grounds Insislked on to
spew to the H'ouge the propriety of suckst'lnensure t
.
Had they attemf ed to she'

de.tvour to bring !tack. the stk e;it'son of the Mere to entwetibeslAse lorserbloc*ade inkier ese preview, Or
theiliji"question gpon'whichlhey were to decide. Tin ders into tt mote lim;ted blockade, rendering that
had listened to that Hon. and Learned Gentleman which was retained more rigors:mit as to the p;rs
with til that attention and deference which he Was et France •and ItAly, and exempting the ports of t:es
all times ready to pay to what tell from hitu, but 14,:rth. This eaplanati If of the Orders of V;O7
more particularly upon a subject with which he had /809 was Ms answer to the question of in, 11, •,1
of -

pry rare .- - desPon- - elite _
..w, thit the •inisfaitunes.of the' reputation „ being peculiarly tonversaut. Oa Leanedl;a. .....,power
tletersetoweitilee tlllitietsOtirlts°ltlidelihron'as"rhe
jeep The market it was supposed .we could not the country anise from a persistence in those decrees, an occasion, such as that afforded by the motion understood the toes:eon, the Henotrable and Learned
fa
in lee% we had foetid in ISIO it was much ex- or that the wounds xeouldbe healed up hy their repeal? under consideration, he had expected that his Host. Gentleman opposite (Mr. Broughem) wiseed to
tem. He could moreover confidently state, that :I'hey had, indeed, made an attempt at such a state- end Learned Friend would have distinctly and de. have referred to a Select Cuss here, fir the pte•
the course of the last two months the Exchange merit, but .f the commerce denied the as- monstratively laid down all the principles on which pose of
.4SC• crt.tiuing, as the change of eircemean cs
• • i°
:fiareeurgh hag risen from 10 to 15 per cent. and sertions. The country had evinced under the latest the ecnduct of
the British Government could he jus. beisinen 180 and 181.9 had rendered :us el•eraeoa
elute/
es in itself a practical refutation of the doe- returns, a state of unparalleled prosperity in trade, tified in having adopted and maintained the Orders 9f the Orden of the former year necessary, whether
••
..i.,. which had been advanced by some Gentlemen far surpassing. the most sanguine conception. Now, iin Council. This course was the tether to have been any change had Liken-place since 1809, which would
~ e epreeite side of the House in the Bulldog the contemplation of the returns made before the ere: • expected on the part of his Hon. and Learned Friend, call for any
• •
further alteration at the press nt tram a a
co al
tonmetee. America herself had always said that anon of the Orders in Council, stewed an evident I because the principles Upon which he had always The change; which he hail undergoes! the Henota e 1
ite did. not, expressly quarrel. with the, Orders in falling away in the British trade ; not a transitory • considered the Orders in Council to rest and to be able and Learned Gentleman to allude to, were rest
council, but desired more particulerly that so much stop, but a complete stagnation of all trade. And 1 justifiable, had that night, for the first time since external but internal. He was perfectly-aware that
bi- our prior ennetlnenta should be rescinded as would. were they to be gravely informed that the Orders in 1 their adoption, been shaken by the speech of the a reference to a Committee en such subjects .as the
Lutude to her traffic. But were the Bri 4 Council had occasioned all thin ? Gentlemen would I Right Hon.theVice.Presieent ofthe Board of nade. distresses of manufactures and trade would not- by
Oise grealer. .
ark
prweenserit to comply with the desire • expressed. see, who had all along branded the measure by the lf the queition had been what his Honourable and any remedy. Gnu knows it could not. For his own'
by a, Honourable Gentleman, then America, 100- name of an experiment, that tee dperiment had. been ' Learned Friend had expected it would he—what, ;mit, he did nut think that these distresses weraattri.
seam her present restrictions, would sweep away a most effectual one, restoring the trade to the noun. i throughout the greater part of his speech, he had aro testable to the Orders in Ciiiincil, nay, he may per.
• from Our hands the whole Brazilian commerce, along etre, and creating an increaseof 22 tnillions sterling on' gued It—and wliatein the rentainder, he never ceased haps be of opinion ilea 'bete Orders were calculated
to prevent them : but still it wis impossible for that
site all that which 'belonged to the Northern parts 1 exports, and 2ltinillionson imports. Such had beenthe to lament it wax not—he—lie should, pails:,
d Europe. It had appeared, both from the conduct': experiment, and a most triumphant one. ifehis Home not have felt much difficuley in concurring with him House to 'hut their eves to the impression which pre.
dour &Jo:sc enemies, and from the behaviour of; were to appoint a Select Committee, to what
in a greater part of what had,fallen from him on the vailed through the count! yun the subject. They *friend., that the system so much reprobated by • sources of information were they to resoi•t ? They occasion—but, if he understood the question sub. were aware 'Of the representations that Lad and
,the H„1„. Gentleman was one of the greatest securi- ' would have Mr. Baring and Mr. Manning examined mined to their consideration by the Hon. and Leal is- would be made to them on the suliject. They must
sieitech the natiun had for her commerce, as the *upon that branch of trade in which they were enaag- ed Gentleman opposite (Mr. Brougham) they were feel a full conviction of the existence of discontents
trade carried on before had been a complete :ed with America. They would have continental net tallied upon to decide whether or not the Orders in throuehout
.. ,
.• , fraud and •
each
ive of - petted the expediency of a.Parliamentary inquiry,
mg to the public mind to know that France,' gerated account of the commerce in which they were' mittee to inquire into the state of the manufactures which might satisfy the public mind as to me real
'kg haring compelled them into an adoption of those concerned, and what would be the advantage arising and trade of the country with reference to those Or- grounds it the distress which was felt, and spew that
Orders by her tyrannical acts, had at last found them • from all this information ? Would this be sufficient ? ders. For his own part, he should freely own, that no part of it WAS a consequence
of Orden i n
tilling heavy upon her own head to a very consider- No. The House would then have to consider all the so far as he could foresze any effect of this inquiry Council. Nothing was more common than when
able extent. It appeared by the returns of the French political and belligerent interests connected with this upon his mi si, he was persuaded that he should come &tresses were felt, to assign them to some ostensible
flame for 1806 that ae2,440,000 per annum accrued ' subject. They would have to go still farther ; ac- out of the Committee with precisely the same opi. cause : this was the fallacy inseparable troin hunian
ears the eustoms ; but te
tha t fm
bran thech
omenomcemet of !cording to the arguments of the Honourable Gentle. nion respecting the Orders in Council with which he nature. Evils, the source of which were not visible,
the own in Counf te revenue man who spoke last, they would have to inquire into ' would go into it. Bat it had been asked by his Ho-1 were generally ascribed to measures, the operation
died suddenly away, dwindling down to £460,000 in !the commercial relations of the whole world. If they Tic-air:Cole and Learned Friend, as it had been before of which was not I ally known, and no maxim was
the year !we From that period, too, the revenue • went into a Committee to inquire into the state of the a:--ked with something like infantine simplicity in ano- more false in itself, or m ore generally applied than this
arising from their traffic had sensibly decreased, andlmanufactures, and into the general state of the cotta. ther place, what Orders in Council were meant to be i •' roe hoc ergo aropter but." though it had in 1810, arisen to upwards of ; try, it would give no satisfaction, bat would, on the inquired into ?To his Honourable and Learned The Honourable and Learned Gentleman who
4000,000, yet that would be considered as an un- ! contrary, have a tendency to raise doubts which, at Fnend'i question he had no.difficulty in answering, brow* forward this Motion, had, in his speech,
natural increase, because' it was swollen by the im- ! present, did not exist. it they looked to their Statute that the Orders were thetas iii' the 7th of January,': wlii: It was not more remarkable for abi;ity than,
menserobbenes which the enemy committed in the- Books, they would see many periods at whith the 1867, sod of 'April,* Mt, (Wets ili Cot.ni:ii which cons doing the answer that had been given to it, tor
Baltic. In the French Bank Returns of 1807, manufacturers were equally distressed, not from any had beet found highly 4eeess cry, greatly b-neficial, mederation, had connected with this subject another,
I
ark,ooo,ooo was the amount of discount, and it fell I Orders in Council, not from any act of the Governs- • and fully justified upon every giound of right, and • which, in his mind, had no connection whatever st eh
fast away until 1810, wten there appeared an annuall inent, but from the fluctuation of the demand for our every principle of the law of nations, until they had ' it. That Honourable-and Learned Gentleman had
return of (only R1'.,',000,000. Her total amount of I manufactures in the foreign market ; for as long as been seaken by the doctrines held by the Right Ho- argu d the el•-•cip of the Orders in Council as cost-
revenue C (11l a
revenue .arising film her commerce and manufac- i there was a fluctuation in the demand for British nourable Gentleman (Mr. Rpse), the Vice-President sleeted with the swan of licences; against any such
tines, acccreing to her /nest prosperous returns, was ' commodities on the Continent, so long must there b• of the Board of Trade.—(Hear, luar.)—For these • connection he must forcibly protest. The Orders in
4,ooo,ooe,while the re:urn ot Britain in exports alone ! times when the manufacturers must be distressed ; Orders in Council, so far as he had been connec:ed • Cor
Ina might be -established without any system of
was/66,000,000. On the whole,therefore,it appeared, [for whenever the Continental market was overstock- with their adoption, he Was ready to take his full Lcences, and the syseena of licences might be carried
that the Orders 'in C. until had occasioned a consi- ed by a superabundance in the supply of British me. share of responsibility. What Orders truly were tai the full extent to which jt had been carried with.
&table decrease of inc French revenue, and had we !nufactures, distress and calamity must follow, as the meant ? Why, they were Orders in'Council, which, i out the Orders in Council having been previoutly in
not Sappily produced such a measure, the enemy necesssar y consequences. To ,go into a Committee . until he had heard the speech of the: Right Hopour. ; existence, or both may be cceexistent without any ne-
• Wet have become very dangerous rivals to ihe Eng- now, would be only to raise a bias in the minds able Genaleman (Mr. lease) that tight, he had al., eatery crninaction ; and, indeed, the best possible,
lisp commerce. Under all the disadvantages of beii,g ,of the manufacturers which might not so readily be ways looked upon as retaliatory upon the climb because the most iadieputable practical evidence, that
obliged to have recourse to foreign ships for the car- appeased, and therefore so far from producing any which had been so understood in every instance,
tying ea of the traffic, Britain. had increased* in
tenth and in riches, while her enemy had become e
aute more impoverished than at any other periodi—
Therefore, under such-a view ofthesubject, he wouldpathievoice against thepreient motion, as one-wholly
dangerous to we prosperity of the British commerce.
Mr. BARING highly eulogized the able and du-
t speech of the Honourable Gentleman who had
ght forward the present motion, and with whine
ies he expressed high approbation. With regar d i
tithe flourishing statements which bad been maile, un- they had no necessary connection; was the tact,. that
lbeneficial advantages to the country, it would only • ail the Viee-President of the Dosed of Trade, in cons where the Orders in Couacil did not operate, there
rend to in nation and kjury. If the House was to go to tradiction to every statement which has hitherto been I the Licence trade existed, and wheie the system of
t the extent of the Hon. Mover's proposition, they must be given to the Public on the subject =in contradiction
prepared to violate the most sacred treaties ;this was to every document in office respecting these Orders— -
' tamed was in activity, there the Orders iii Council
did Lot apply. Whatever may be the misehiete
e proposition most monstrous in itself; and insulting in contradiction to every communication which he therefore, ot the licences, the Orders in Council, be
;to the moral feelings of the House. In defending (Mr. Canning) had made, and every dispatch written ' would maintain, were guiltless of it. When he coati-
; the system of licences, he adverted to the opinion of in his official character, explanatory of their nature
I the Continental merchants, .who would not trust their and spirit—in contradiction to every speech which!
!goods in neutral ships, unless protected by British had been made in Parliament in defence of them, I
licences. Without these licences, the British trade had thought proper to represent them, not as mea-
would be in danger, not only from capture by the sures retaliatory upon the enemy, but as measure. of dered the impression whica prevailed in the country,
, he was not prepared to oppose the motion for an in-
qiiiry, whatever may be his Ifeeliags, if the Honour-
table and Learned Member in the first instance were
to propose to repeal the Orders in Council. If the
byahe Right Hon. Gentleman on the opposite side, enemy, but also be liable to capture from our own self-defence. He knew it might be urged that they House were to refer the subject at all, he was in-
lie would only say, that any person why dialked• the [maritime regulations ; without these licences every might be said to be self-defensive, because retaliatory dined to think that the witole should be referred.
streets of Lonuon, miclicint. having any intercourse i vessel might be Seized by British cruizers, no trade measures ; but if they were to be in no larger a sense, The Orders in Council he believed had been bent-
whatever with mercantile men,-woulchnot hesitate in 'tould be carried on with the Continent of Europe, It retaliatory than as self-defensive—if they were not to ficiale but of the eaten tages of the system of li.
saying, that such descriptions were not earramed hi was idle therefore to attribute the distress of our ma- retaliate directly against the enemy, but to be delen. censes he had his doubts: but lie would not presume
the state of the commerce in the notion at preeenre.'nufactures to this systems or to any other act of the sive against a t ival in trade—if they were not to be bel- ,to prejudge the question. Some Gentlemen seemed
and would strongly advocate the necessity* ad pt- Government. His Honourable Friend had charged ligerent measure!, but purely detensive, then all the Ito look at the appointment of a Committee as unpre.
!rig some rneastnttending to lessen, aLtrm. and•Vcos thit system *as supported by perjury, and originating arguments by which they had hitherto been sup I cedented and alarming ; but be could discover no
note security in mert•an6le minds. Wheelie cunt-
gmund of apprehension in such a measure. It was
in fraud; if the Coverninent did not countenance this : ported by them wauld tail to apply, and he should
templated the probability of the Americans beetiming systemour irade would be utterly ruined, and-revert no longer support what he had •looked upon as usual in this House to appoint Committees, whether
the rivals of Britain in the trade to SpantehAlcherielaa
'--- - 'Lntaierat
bgieto America, and other neutrals. The Ho. ' retaliatory upon as a belligerent, it they nese to general or select (he preferred a select Committee),
sin die removal of the Orders in Councia • lit could f Member who vole last, attributed all our lose that character and be considered as measures to inquire into the state of trade, into the distresses of
only say, there was eery little possibility ot any such ; calaMitielik out MtginAy resisting the gasconade of of commercial riealrye He had understood the the manufacturers, and into the circumstances of the
success on the puma'. the Congress. When the remit; Bonaparte't lifeich‘mg Decrees, and yet he •'would ' grounds of these Orders to rest neon the principle commerce of the country. It was not unusual either
formerly was free to the rivalsiiip of nations, America remind that Honourable Gentleman,that in his speech :of retaliation- alone, and he should beg leave to in• to bring such questions again before the House.—
meter exported above the amount of one million to the , upon a former night, he declared, he never would . traduce the few observations he -had to address to Even the Orders in Council had in the first instance
•s°lllleru contieent; the reason 'was clear. Spanish ! give up the Order of Conine of January, 1807. He the House on the subject, by recalling their atten- undergone a fuller discussion than any measure of
America had a taste. like her parent government, for : should ever be desirous to make the greatest sacrifice*: tion to the order in which these measures were resort- I trade had previously had in Parliament. If eighteen
theelegancies and luxuriesof lite, and North America '
had no such in support of our commercial interests. The Orders ed to. When the French Government had thought months after they had been originally adopted' they
required revision and alteration, the period that haul
productions on all her continent, Britain ''• in Council had been the source of much misconstrue- proper to declare the British Islanda in a state of
was therefore oar country which supplied her desires, I don, of much perversion of truth, of d storting facts, blockade, it was thought right by the British Govern- since elapsed might have produced changes which
and enjoyed the richest benefits ot her commerce. ''and of much false logic ; but nothing was more de- ment to denounce to the' world the injustice of the would render a further alteration necessary. Wish
Respecting the impo.,sibility, as 'it was called, of monstrable to him than this, that we must not retract i proceeding, and to proclaim its own right to retaliate, I respect to the discontents which were known to diet,
Fiance procuring any 'supplies of raw 'co-ton, he those only means, which under PROVIDENCE must at the sante time iinnouncing that if it did not carry he would ask, would it be nothing to pronounce
could not ptrceivr what could prevent her, had she protect our commercial interests, the only means by its retaliation to the full extent to which it was end• by a vote of a Committee rather than by speeches
the inclination ; she had abundant means ot inter- which we are enabld to resist and defeat the over- tled it was influenced by expediency only. The words in that House, that they were not attributable to
course with the neutral ports* by cenelse down which bearing tyranny, and boundless ambition of our have- of the Order in Council made on the 7th of January,' the Orders in Council I Would it be nothing it lei-
eit migheforwerd c4eciu in such quantities that he' terate enemy. i 1807, were " whereas (reciting the Berlin Decree, cences had not led toa the. distresses felt, toilette kbat
1
ft,nltl7 would be overstocked, dal ehe so incline her- • . Mr. BRQUGHAI.4I, in explanation, observed, that , Ste.) such' measures would give a right of full retali- print supported by the Reporeof it Committee, aid
•'''',_e'e When lie examined the statements so ably set his Honourable And Learned Friend had more than i ation to testi-sift the injuries of the French Govern- sanctioned by the anncuireitt opinion Of that Howse?
'.e..*7 by his Learned and Honciumble Friend (Mr. insinuated that he, as well as some of his friends, had meat, and te retort the evils of its own injustice." The —Would it be nothing to submit at these 'vides
7gharn), rtvecting the iniquitous mode of tratlid felt somewhat impatient in a former debate, at the very terms of this Order proved that it was merely to the test of opinion, and to have the whole matter.
es,'",hfhe Unites in Council- had occasioned, he could ' application of vehement terms to the Emperor of ' retaliatory. The Order of November, 1807, referred ascertained by ,exam.ination and confirmed by es-, -
"nells regretting, that instead of ;ill that mode of France. •He had a perfect recollection of all that to this Order of January, and expressly declared that perience ? The consideration, however, win& hall
Vgiu's and dissimulation, 'we did not employ en- 'had halm from him on that occasion, and could not they were in:ended to " retort upon
, the enemy the principally called him up was, the ;statement of the
L'Pednentrals, which would save us the blush of. call to mind that any
.feeling or expression of the de- violence of his own aggression. Such had been Right Hon. Gentleman,. ties Vice President, cf the
wilng any longer a neutral resemblance in oilier to i seription alluded to had been betrayed by himself, or, the ground, the origin, and the principle .of the. Or- .Board of Trade, that the Orders in Council were not
fie,
merchandise into f •
countries. On the : •
()reign as far as he knew, by any of his Honourable Friends. tiers of 1807. His Majesty had undoubtedly thought retaliatory upon the enemy. bud Measures of cone-
'''''et therefore, he would maintain, that it wale' If his Honourable and Learned Ft lend intended to it rght to qualify the principle of retaliation ay mercial ' rivalry with A. mei ice. eAro, no.) So he _
lelessetr.L_ y measure to nominate a' Committeeiif. the ! insinuete that he was disposed to disapprove of the the adoption of a restriction in its application which had understood. the Right Honnurable. Gentleman,
nPlion desired, nierela to consider, whet or' application of strong aad warm, or even vehement amounted only to a mitigation in favour of nets- and, it that were the case, it would be necessary is
lit ..- • if it language to the conduct of Bonaparte, he must have trials. This mitigation ot the extended principle bring back the Orders in Council to the original
—re Orders in Council should ceeee and
Possible to discover *a
fitter mode of carrying iniannderstood what he had said, and having GOverranent to rinciples upon which they had been originally esta.
so ruis- shewesl the desire of Ws M .jasty's., . hl p
license trade, than that nitile Ilse of at pre- understood, misrepresented him. i confine the evil to the :meaty, and if any part of eh isiied. '!'he Right; Honourable Genie's:lan then
.
• . which had b the subjec of so ,tech corn-1 Mr. STEPHEN observed, that he clearly under- should fall upon neutrals, it was the enemy alone that ; tricot into a retrospect of the circumstances under which
. t* SnLitt4cl the tommittee b of opinion that a stood the Honotti able Member
to have expressednis. was responsible for ir. Where the operation was con- Ithe Orders in Council had been iisuell, to spew that
' oatinuance ot the Oi-deri !n Conucil was prokier, approbation at the warmth with which the conduet fined to ret lation, the evil to the neutral was oily in the. constructive blockade had been maintained on the
- shouri feel thoroughly convinced, that nothing or the French Emperor had been spoken .of on that cidental though not to be avoided ;--it was a cause- principle of retaliation, by the some rules as the ac.,
QIII2n • -•1 silence to be regretted, but the measures from which tual blockade ; and contended, that though the Bre. 4°,1 in .all the Anierrati 'corresi:imilente would occasion. •
n 1 1,.
al'''. us to ee . hatibn.nrthe mantra,' ' I Mr. BROUGHAM re-asserted, that in so doing it resulted Were forced upon the British Governinene• tish Government Was fully warranted, according. to
"11'. STE PHEN felt riled' the departure the Honourable and Learned Gentleman had misun- If at any time it should appear that these Orders did the law of nations, in excluding neutralsfrom trading
iiith sir at e
but ope- ! with blockaded ports, it did not follow that it was at
the BOIL Pißlfern- 'IP ra Lirtengheni) hal derstood him ; and he adverting this night to what not retort his aggression upon die enemy,t
a constant British trade iv' from his original: sinn,. s iledisst intim. • raised on that occasion, lied greatly misrepresented . rated solely to the injury of the neuteals ;1. eventhe liberty to allow . rich .
• •it i I British Government should appear to have interfered them. He should be desirous, therefore, to hear the
-° '174 House. At that time -he- adnotineed a him.' •
tit • •would sentiments of some Honourable and Learned
CANNING then rose, and said, that having to relieve their pressure upon the enemy, they
_ distinct asitre'ia -bait . • the liattne of:the . • Mr.
' -.mai with which he li;c1 concluded 14 speech, every i fore to press himself on the attention of the stand upon far different principles frene those upon denten upon this part of the subject ; for, as in the
'''''Nteti i • • - that c - eel' " e
which ha House in competition with the Hon. and Learned which lie had supported them, and would, in his opi- original Orders, pressure
. upon tne enemy was the
6 perceive the um ittee
Wished, . t.,Gentleman—(Mr. Canning and Mr. Stephen rose at the . . ,very
. - object, he did net think we could be justified in nee W appoint, -.would have.the most hetet-oge-
e:lw •
tMr Caasiinggave :say)—whose speech vision. It was obvious that, when a considerable lieving the enemy at the expettee of the neutral.
mixture of measuri., and orders, and distnr- • tame moment, but .
antes - .heard, he felt the ,!isadvantage change had been produced in the situation of Europe, .—He agreed., that the tree policy now as in 1809,
i_ .to consider, that had ever before uahapeily • the House had just
‘CUto the lot . • *der which he rose after the speech of the Hon. by the transactions in the Peninsula, as well as by would be to give the Orders in Council their full and
a eof any Committee to contemplate.— i tin
Learned Gentleman, in which he had intro- other events on theContistent, the Orders of April 1807 unlimited effete, in order to reduce the power ot the
0-1,41,44.....'e Inotion `ad by fat:too indiscriminate
and iucome and
.).
—"r • *-14 -tuck duced go much, and such veriet • yof matter not con- were found to be no longer applicable. This change enemy, but sot to say, as by these licenses it was said,
erect 404
uf
'lt -7/0"2.30 o' • • .should en- led to the adoption of the Order of April 1809, whicit 44 the meanent your wants amount to a certain height
tooted 'with the subject of discussion, if he
-POlking. •It tizialloood, sndoid. Or- nect