Star.
London, England, 1822-04-04 00:00:00

ADJOURNMENT OF THE HOUSE.

I •

.

•
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY moved that the House,
at its rising, do adjourn to that day fortnight, Wednesday, the
I:th of ApriL—Agrtecl to.

AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.

Mr. BENETT Wiltshire) presented a Petition
from the County of Wilts, complaining of Agricul-
tural Di ,tress, and praying for relief. It was not diffi-
cult to conjecture, he said, what feeling would be
excited amongst those who looked forward for relief
to the labours of the Agricultural Committee, when
they read the Report, and found their hopes disap-
pointed : they could not but be astonished at the wis-
dom ad* Parliament—at least of that House, on whom
their expectations rested, when they saw there was no
remedy to those distresses proposed—certainly none
that could afford any immediate relief. There was a
monopoly in the market for the last three years; but
whether the Report of the Agricultural Committee
would add to that monopoly, he would not say ; he
conceived that every principle of monopoly was false,
and no means should be adopted thltt tended to en-
courage such a system. It was almost time to esta-
blish some fixed principle, that fair and liberal one
of a free 'trade, which, hefeared, could not be reason-
ably expected, unless we had the power to take off
all the obstructions that impeded it. lie wished to
make an observation on one point. Much bad been
said of the amount of taxation with which the land
was burdeneJ—that taxation which alone prevented
the British farmer from meeting the foreign growers
of corn ; it was estimated at 16s. per acre; he Consi-
dered it to be much higher. Before the year 1792 it
was estitnated that. the rent of a farm should be in
the proportion of one-third of its gross produce ; that
proportion was no longer observed, and the occupier
of the soil must now make it -yield four times and
one-half the amount of the rent, to enable him to
satisfy his landlord. The rate of taxation, including
the Poor;'-rate, had increased on land to one-ninth of
its gross produCe;'or at least 50 per cent.'on the pre-
sent finer. He was of opinion that it was more to
the advantage of the farmerto have the price of corn
at six shillings the bushel, than to. sell it at ten shil-
lings, with a seppotid•prcfit.of onisliilling,.fiom the
increased' expenses now attendant upon it, and the
necessity for the employment of more capital. The
Language of the occupier of land almost amounted to
• We have received nothing from its cultivation,
'',give it back Again to our landlords. They
watate of:almost utter despair. He, for one,
eonsider•thvenie so-very dEplorable as many
Are:feltittti beflnctigibent. on the House to
• tig4loyrilitliefice, .11nd to meet them
imitortaut-And 'decisive steps. -They were

• ,

.;~,

called on to do

for

!R, 47*

IU-society, the
they did not at,
portion of the
firer,
ter d
dePlore
n given before, if the country was forced
new war, or attacked by a foreign foe. He thought
that the ouse should not let the subject drop, Or let
the opinion go abroad that they were indifferent to
the sufferings of the people, or. inclined to turn a deaf
ear to their complaints. The Hon. Member then
„Inoved that the Petition be brought up.
Mr. ELLICE said, that he did not rise to Oppose
the bringing in of the Petition ; his object in rising. Was'
to do that which he was desirous of doing last night,
when the Report of the Agricultural Committee was
brought down, that of drawing the attention of the
House to that Report. He hid no doubt but that
it was the anxious wish of the Noble Lord opposite
to deprecate any discussion at this moment. 'He was
also certain that, when the Committee was appointed,
It was not contemplated •to afford by it any relief to
the distresses of the country, but that it was got up
for the purpose of withdrawing for a time the atten-
tion of the House and of the- People, trout any consi-
deration of the sufferings of agriculture. The Cbm-
mince have been engaged six weeks, and the result
loltheir deliberation was contained in the Report be-
fore them. He asked the House what benefits could
arise from that Report,. or from the sitting of the
Cornminee ? Would it not have been better, in tiTe
early part of the Session, to have declared to the
country that they were placed under so great a
weight of taxation they could not venture to offer it
any partial relief? When hd looked in the Report,
he was convinced that one subject only had engaged
the minds of the Committee—how they could raise
the price of corn in this country—(Hear, hear, hear).
they had fairly told the House that such was
their intention, would any person have ventured to
recommend their appointment ? They had been
guilty of omissions of many points which required
their attention. They state in one paragraph that
they do not pretend to inquire if the distress cf
agriculture be owing to over-production or not ;
they only sought to give as fair a remuneration to the
grower of our produce as was consistent with the in-
terests of the consumer. If the Committee above
stairs had determined to do their duty, they would
have investigated the causes f the distress, and have
inquired if it was to be attributed to over-produc-.
tion or to taxation ? The erroneous measures of
1819, with respect to the currency of the realm, they
have also kept out of their attention, and occupy the
time of .six weeks in alone considering in v hat man-
ner they could most effectually raise the pi ice of corn.
The Report, in his opinion, was altogether a tissue
of nonsense. lt began by stating that the Commit-
tee considered one of the causes of the present agri-
cultural distress to be the immense quantity of grain
overloading the market at Clark-lane. If they pro-
perly considered the subject, they might have attri-
buted that glut to the damp state in which the har-
vest was got in last season. The farmers were of ne-
cessity compelled to thresh out all that moist grain,
and force it to a market. To that cause he ascribed
the overloading of the supply. When it was stated
that the aver age 'price of corn now was 475. all that
inferior and damp quantity was included ; but if they
I.:oked at the price of good corn, such as it was fit
the interest of the consumer to purchase, that pr ice
was nut the average. Not only .here, but in every
part of the kingdom, really good and sound corn was
at an average of -from 55i. to 60s.the quarter, greater
.by 25 or 30 per cent. than .in any otter country in
&trope. Was not the.price of labour dependant on
the price of food, and if they raised the price of the
latter on the industrious and operative classes in this
country, would they not force them to abandon it,
as had been once the case in Holland ? The Com-
mittee were altogether mistaken in their views. It
was impossible in a commercial country to raise the
price 01 corn to a disproportion with that of labour.
If they looked back to a period before the war, they
would find that grain was higher in this country
-than in any other. He was anxious not to trouble the
House at further length on the subject, but he hoped
that it would indulge him in drawing its attention to
the further absurdities of the system adopted. He
was convinced the country would see that the Commit-
tee had no other view than to assist the Government
to get over the greater part of the Session without
meeting the question of the necessities of-the People.
He would take the liberty of stating what he consi-
dered to be the main cause of the present distress.—•
There was one admission in the Report on which he
would observe. It was, that a great alteration had
been made in the currency of the kingdom, and- in
consequence of *bat alteration they recommend the
importation price to be reduced from 80s. to 70s.—
But they were doing nothing by that alteration ; it
was merely an attempt to place the average price of
gritin at that height which was intended to be effected
by a former Bill. He considered that the circulation
of the country was made op at various times of
country bankers notes. If they looked back to the
number stamped, they would find iLto bein 1814,
eleven millions; in 1816, seven millions; in 1818,
twelve millions; in 1820, two millions and a half.—
The currency of Scotland fluctuated exactly in pro-
portion .to the amount of country bankers .notes,
stamped there at the same time. At the period of
passing the Bill of 1819, he had given it as his opi-
nion that the currency was then at its greatest de-
preciation. In 1818, the debt owing from the coun-
try to the Bank was at its utmost extent. The-issues
of the Bank -were then the greatest ; the country
bankers notes were then most abundant. If there
were any dates in existence to rest upon, he was jus-
tified in saying, that in the year 1818 the currency
was at its lowest state of depreciation; no better
proof than this could be-afforded, that while these
fluctuations took place, the fluctuation in the price
of gold was five per cent. The. House well knew
that a restoration of the currency would not benefit
the operative classes; the value of labour at Coven-
try, which lie had the honour to represent, had not
fallen in value since .1818, while the price of pro-.;
duce in the same time had fallen. one-half. The ope-
ration of the Bill of 1819 had, in his opinion, the
effect of imposing a tax of SO per cent. on all descrip.'
Lions of property. There was one point in which his
'would agree with his Majesty's Ministers, that if
they even took off all taxes that the income of the
country would admit of, to the amount of the Sink-

''°4"”

part _ _ country
humble to these causes. He did not think it pos-
sible, within the present Session, to digest any effi-
cient plan of general relief or. practical utility.
.411
that Parliament could do was to consider how taxaH
don could be reduced, and to effect every saving
that was possible. He trusted that, after the recess,i
the House would, endeavour to reduce tazatiod, so,
far as it was within their . power to do so, Without,
affecting she amount of revenue necessary for the;
payment of the interest of the National Debt. He:
hoped that, before the next Session, some effectual,
plan would be adopted to satisfy the country, andl
afford equal, relief to all classes of the cOmmunity.—l
At present there was a gradual revolution 'taking;
place in all property, not dissimilar from that which,
attended the French Revolution, but fortunately,
without the possibility of the fatal consequences that
ensued in that country. The only remedy proposed
in the Report was that of a loan of one million on
corn to be warehoused ; but his opinion on that point
was, it was to be given • solely with a view to en-
hance the price of grain. He felt that, after the un-
equivocal declaration.of agricultural distress—after
the various petitions presented at the bar, that some
relief was due to that class of society. He was as
willing as any other person to afford it all relief that
could be given without placing fresh burthens on the
shoulders of any other portion of the community. To
that extent he would most cordially agree—( Hear).
Mr. FR ANKLAND LEWIS did not consider the
present to he the moment to enlarge upon the Report.
on the table, or to discuss at length the topics it em-
braied. But the lion. Gentleman (Mr. Ellice) had
so strongly censured the Agricultural Committee,
that he felt the necessity of saying a few words, arid
would do so in the confidence that neither the House
nor the country would concur in the strong censures
he had applied. He must differ most essentially with.
the Hon. Gentleman on the plan which he considered
the Committee should have adopted. He said that
we should have investigated the cause of the dis•
tresses. and how far they were referable to taxation,
or to a change in the value of the currency ; but he
(Mr. Lewis) begged to dissent from that opinion, and
for this reason—he had heard, over and over again,
from Hon. Members, that the distress was attributable
to T: e change in the currency effected by the Bill of
1819, but he never heard any Member of the House
have the hardihood to propose the repeal of that
measure. Then, without any instruction of that
nature, he asked, should the, Committee have S at-
tempted to rip up that question? The Hon. Member
had said that they should have brought down a state•••
ment how far the sufferings of the country were in-
fluenced by taxation, as well as a statement how they
were to be relieved; but it was a power they had not.
They were not authorised to hunt out for points un-
connected with the strict line of duty they had to
perform. The Committee at present was but a sequel
to that of last Session, which had the most extended
view of the question, and had gone over all. that
matter before.
,It was utterly impossible and unwise,
to travel,,over and over again, the same ground which
had been fully marked out last year. It was his opi-
nion there was nothing censurable in that omission.
He would take this opportunity of declaring, on his
own part and on that of the Committee, that it never
entered into their contemplation to increase the pro-
hibition that now existed against the importation of
foreign grain, with a view to raise the price of corn.
"'lmre certainly were individuals Who did wish to do
so in the Committee, but the majority was ever stu-
dious not in any way to increase the importation
price, but to change the mode of its operation. Such
being the fact,he should consider him elf to be blame-
able if lie did not resist the imputation.
Mr.WESTERN said, that he could not agree with
the general censure that had been cast by his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Ellice) on the Committee, of which he
was a Member. He concurred with the Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite (Mr. Lewis), that the consideration
of the reduction of taxation was not referred to the
Committee. He was inclined to do every justice to
the motives by which that body had been actuated,
but he was compelled to declare that he did not con-
cur in all its resolutions. Ile wished to state that, in
point of fact, the Committee was but a continuation
of that of the last year, called for by the numerous
petitions and allegations of distress which were sub-'
milted to the House. They considered that the Act
Of 1815 was mainly defective, as it contained no
.check to any quantity of grain being poured into the
country, and which had actually occurred to an im-
mense extent. The Committee had tried to get over
that obvious grievance. They had applied a remedy
which he considered would be perfectly incompetent,
and would place the agricUlturist in a worse situation
than before. He applauded the spirit that induced
them to recommend that remedy, but he was of opi-
nion that they 'were egregiously mistaken. It would
only insure the dissatisfaction of the farmer. Even
if the measure, in a long course of events, should
prove beneficial to all parties, and be found alike
serviceable to the agriculturist and the consumer, it
was most inexpedient at this moment. From the un-
certain state of the currency—the unsettled situation
of the country, he Was at a loss tO,know how such a
duty as was proposed could operate to give relief,.or
effectually lessen the distress.• Ile had said, on a
former night, that two-thirds of the farmers of Essex,'
if called upon to make up their accounts, would be,
&rind bankrupt. This fact he would now repeat,
believing, as he did, that it could not be controverted.
—He knew that the capital of the agriculturists was
quite exhausted. Did not this prove the necessity of
inquiring minutely into the nature of the distress?,
He contended, that it was impossible to say that the
alteration of the currency had not produced, a great
part of the distress under which the whole country
was now suffering. He had read a speech of the
Right Hon. Member for Chichester (Mr. Huskisson),
in which he admitted that a portion of the distress
was attributed to the alteration in the value of money.
That speech had been delivered in the year 1817.
tow, it was said, that over-production, combined
ith the alteration in the currency, was the great
louse of the evil. For himself, he must sa*,, thit
be thought the alteration in the currency
the greatest share in it. There was no comparison

9

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whatever between the distill's which existed in this
country,on
ise e nen.
and that which
t prevailed to a.certain'ex.
tent In
rranve,
thoagh the
prices
were low, there were not the same mischievous effects
restating from them as in England; nor were alt
articles of cOtitmerce, such as iron, copper, &c. de.
preciated in France as in this county. He would
:ay, without feat' of ContridiCtion; ehe earnBi tied
operation of the Act of 1797, with the Act of 1819,
had brought about all our prefeet clkentities- -11.1 z
it bad been said, by an Honourable Member on ti,e
other side, that no man yet had been found wi:h
hardihood enough to propose an 'encroatinent
the Act of 1819. He would insist that distress must
.make as alter it, and that at no distant period, for
k was. impossible 'the present state of things could
continue: Within a period of twenty years, namely}
from the year 1792 to 1812, the price of corn hier.
doubled; the Debt had increased to an enormoo;
amount, and• taxes liad been imposed. to an ext•m
beyond conception. These effects, which had the;-
origin with the baneful measure of 1797, were re.
ferred to an antecedent period. In. the progress of
events, they brought about a havock on the property
of the landholders, such as never had been made by
the most dreadful revolution. It was ,true that ti
price of estates had doubled, but with that double
price came all the incumbrances, dangers, and difli-
culties, which we now experience-7(Hear, hear).—
The moment a change of the currency was effected,
all these evils still remained in full force, while tLe
landlord found his rental reduced one-half. Taking
the several demands for agencies, incumbrance.,
dowers, &c. landed property did not now amount to
more than one-half the nominal income. He dif-
fered entirely with his Hon. Friend the Member ft,r
Coventry, who stated that the alteration of the cur-
rency was of advantage to the labouring chts:es,
reducing the price of provisions, while the price ‘-'
labour was kept up. The effect of the. Bill of 1519
was, on the contrary, to reduce the price of labour,
while it left the poor man subject to the same amount
of taxation as before. Never was there any measure
so injurious, so cruel, with respect to all stases, as
the combined operation of the Bills of 1797 :tad 1819,
by which the public faith was brpken with the public
debtor. Its effects were as sensibly felt in tie
India Colonies as in this country; and if something
was not 'speedily thine,. he should feel it his duty, at
a future period, to bring this
.subject in a detailed
form before the House.

Mr. RICARDO next addressed the House. No
one could be more aware than he was of the dill:id-
' ties produced by thealteration thectirrency ; but
he could not agree with his Honourable Friend the
*Member liir.ssex, that its effects on the agricultural
•
interest were such as he had represen:ed. Let ti:e.
House look at the °petition of the measure as it re-
gattledshe tenantry of the country, and then draw
thatiiifereoce which the facts of the case migh: war-
rant. • Suppose the amount of money raised by fixa-
tion he fifty millions, and that for the public expe::-
diture and the demands incurred by restoring t.l.
currency to its original standard a sum of ten mil-
lions-was deducted, there would remain forty mil-
lions. • SUppose one-fourth or that sum was paid by
the tenantry, the portion that would devolve upon
them would be ten millions; and taking the altera-
tion in the value of the currency at twenty-five per
cent. the whole extent of thelnereased burdens upon
them would only be 2,500,000/. And was it possibly
that such a difference as this could give"rise to suet
disastrous effects as were stated to have been pr..-
duced by the resumption of cash payments? Why,
the thing was altogether impossible. But looking to
the condition of the landlords, the House would find
that they suffered under the same burdens as others.
However, he might be asked if the tenantry were in-
jured by this state of things, must not the landlords
profit by it, if they still received the same amount
of rent as before ? He would answer, certainly not,
for when the distress came, they made an allowance
equal to the depreciation which had taken place ill
the value of money. But again, he might be asked,
if they gave up twenty-five per cent. and received
seventy-five per cent. out of 1001. how were they in-
jured? But he would contend that they did not re-
ceive seventy-five per cent. Ever since the year
1819, the increase of burdens to the landed interest,
in consequence of the alteration in the currency, was
about ten per cent. and landlords were labouring
under the greatest distress. At the same time he
did not ascribe that distress to taxation, or to the al- .
teration of the currency. No; he found another and
more satisfactory cause for it, which was superabun-
dance, occasioned by favourable harvests, and large
importations of corn fiqui Ireland. He felt, however,
highly gratified to think thrit it.was quite impossib:e
for such a state of things `to continue• very long. It
was utterly impOssible thit tine produce of the land
should only be sufficient to pay the taxes, and leave
nothing for rent and other charges. Adverting to
the former Report of the Agricultural Committee,
he found it to contain some admirable principles.
Were he to take half of that Report and examine it
in detail, he should discover ;nit propositions which
he could not, appreciate too highly • and, judging
from such specimens; he should say that it was wore
thy of being placed by the side of the Bullion Report,
or any other, however excellent. In some instances,
its exposition of the Corn Laws was most forcible and
correct. * It stated that there were two great evils
with respect to them: the first was, that when ccrn
rose to the price of eighty shillings, the'ports were to
be open for the receptionof foreign grain, a principle
that afforded the English farmer no security what-
ever. The next great evil was, that in seasons of
plenty, when,by the operation of the Corti Laws the'
price here rose above•that in other countries, theiat-•
mer must be ruined-by thiie or four good harvests.
What, then, was to be 'ant, but, by the adoption of
speedy measures, to make our habitual price ap7
preach as nearly atikissible tcilliat'"Of the Continent.,
But white he bestoWed this. :just praise on one part of
the Report, there was another part which bethought
extremely objectionable:* he- cbuld by no means ac-
cede to the principles which it laid down on the sub-
• ject of countervailing
'duties: The proposition re-
specting theft did not maintain with him that all
commodities sent to this country ought to be subject
to all the imposts and drawbacks which were netts-
iesrcceouluftoryr
wifotuhladt.
swa 7. forth e t
ch
ae
ep, r ot
the
e ct i
oar nn
hitielsketo'Vexy few contingencies. No, the Report
-ogfrotirercoinmiltm
ijdtmeaded a system of countery ailing duties equebi
to the difference of growing corn here, compared

I. this—We
and wi g
were in.
i did not e
others
look
by some

oto for tip, sake of that‘valuable class Pond, k epuld not afford stfilektnt
occupiers and titbit. of the sal—, If knew of piattisuf that-of repealing Jut ,Hon.
t one strike at tSe gee of the eiil, that Gentlenkan's (Mr. Pears)lßill,atid,by.
community wtielalialtaiten down for Dal* issues; on fair *d taiuitehle terms, to the
lost' to the country..lVe should then amount at which it was fixed by the Bill of 1797.
re The want of the protection that had The Committee shoalThave stated in stheiraepart
fore. if the country was forced into a what part of the distress of the country was awl-

• • • • •
with the expense or growing it in other eodritries.
To countervailing
.duties of this 'description there
were no limits, and they hunt be highly &judicial
to the agricultural interest. He conceived that there
was no principle More self-eiident than this—that
there was no such thing as a remunerating price for
growing corn in any country. If we were to cultivate
our best lands, there would be no heed- of counter-
vailing duties, for we shoUld.be'an exporting instead
of an importing country; but in the progress of so-
ciety. the increase of population rendered it necessary
for vs to till bad lands, which could not be done
without incurring great expense. Of this h&was quite '
certain. that it would be destructive of the best inte-
rests ct the country to adopt any such system of
countervailing duties as that recommended by the
former Report. With. respect to the Committee of •
this rear. he went into it with a disposition to af-
cvery possible relief to the farmer. All he re-
cd was, that there should be an approach made
to th.-ie principles upon which he thought the agri-
•cnl:::rrl interest could he best protected; but though
tie Report stated that the price, which was now low,
might he lower, still it held forth no hopes to the
country, further than what was to be found in the re-
commendation for adopting a better system. But
what was that system ? It was the very same that
he deprecated—the system of countervailing duties.
This, he maintaiued, would destroy all the benefits
arising from the commerce of the country. With
respect to the West Indies, he could by no means
azree with his Honourable Friend the Member for
Essex, that they suffered in consequence of the alter-
ation •in the currency. In that part of our Empire
over-production and the want of a market was also
the cause of the evil. The corn rower here he con-
sidered entitled to protection to the amount of the.
taxes he was compelled to bear. But whatever tem-
eorary•measures might be resorted to, he was of opi-
nion that it was the duty of that House co neglect no
oirportunity of returning to sound principles.
Mr. BENNET, though be agreed with many of
the ideas thrown out by the Honourable Member for
Pottatlington, could not admit that taxation, aggra-
vated as its weight was by the restoration of the cur-
rency, had little or nothing to do with the causes of
the present distress. In 1792, the price of wheat was
about the same as it was at present, when the taxes,
at the very outside, including the expense of collec-
tion, did not exceed £19,000,000. Then, nobody
heard anything but exultation at the wealth of the
country—the 3 per Cents. were nearly at par—every'
Gentleman received his rept, and but one sentiment
prevailed everywhere, that the country had never
been so rich before. ny was there this difference?
Because then the taxes amounted to but £19,000,000;
wrw their amount was E. 56,000,000, which was taken
out of the produce and industry of the country.—
Now, looking at the situation of the country, they
found that a people, decidedly the most industrious
in the world, possessing a soil not the most fertile,
but a fair sample, and a climate not the best, but
one of the best in the temperate zone, were in such a
state, that the cry of distress was heard from all
classes. It was said that superabundant produce was
the cause of the evil. .Bot it was not only a super-
abundance of corn, but of everything else. The
trees grew too fist, industry was too active, and
wherever they looked, it was seen that such were the
demands made by the Crown, by the Church, and
by the Poor-rates, that, these satisfied, little or no-
thing remained for the landlord or cultivator. It
was quite true that the country might so go on. It
might be made the same as India, to which state he
bad no doubt we were now approaching. Proprietor
might be driven off after proprietor, Gentleman after
Gentleman, and Nobleman after Nobleman, till, us
the end, the whole of the soil would be claimed by
the GovernmEnt, the Church, and the Poor-rates.—
Could any man look at what had occurred within
the last three or four years. without perceiving that
the seeds of such a revolution had been sown by the,
measures inflicted on the country. The lion. Mem-
ber for Portarlington had said, that distress could
not arise from the change in the currency, the whole
erclense of which to the occupiers of land did not
exceed £2,500,000. But those various circumstances
ought to be taken into consideration which had been
ably pointed out by the Hon. Member for Essex, and
then it would be seen the pressure it occasioned was
most serious. He knew of a family who, a few years
ago, was in the receipt of £6OOO or £BOOO per an-
num; that family now, from the changes which• had
occurred, was reduced to live on 1:1'200, without any
extravagance or misconduct on their part. He was
glad that the finances of the country were taken from
the Jews' corner and the Alley speculators by the
measure adopted in 1818. lie thanked GOD that
that system had been given tip, and there was no wish
to embat k in it again. It was, however, impossible for
him not to call for some arrangement that would
give the country the benefit of a great reduction of
taxes. It was quite a joke to hope for relief from any
other source, and he could hardly find words to ex-
press his contempt for the opinions of those who dif-
fered from him on this point, and who believed that
there was any way of saving the property that re-
mained in the country, but by keeping the hand
of the Tax-gatherer out of the pockets of the People.
When this had been done as far as it could be done;
when they had reached the lowest point by doing
away that juggle, the Sinking Fundwhen taxes had
been repealed to that amount—if this would not do,
he would say the first creditor in the country must
compound, and he would not see the Gentlemen of
the country robbed of their estates, and havock made
of the farmers' property, without calling for such a
composition. Though the assertion was a bold one,
he had no doubt that he should live to see the day
When this would be proposed, and when the Noble
Lord opposite and the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
stn some plea of expediency, would stand up in that
House as the advocates of such a measure. This, he
wished it to be borne in mind, was that which he
would only recommend in the last extremity. He
should deserve to be considered void of common ho-
nesty, if he were not first to recommend that every
practicable step should be taken to avoid that great,
but, as he feared it would prove, inevitable calamity,
by strictly paying the interest to the last shilling.—
But when this could be done no longer, they must
men rest content with paying as far as they could
go, and the creditor must be satisfied with getting a
portion of his debt) which portion might be endan-
•,:ered by further delay. The present Report seemed
Si him only to suggest plan for raising the•price of

• .:.1.14 • . . •
ledrii, NONA tifitoiciing out to the-tOtitsiri such a
prospect of *relief as °welt to be afforded.
The Marquis LoligoNDEli la felt it mis-
s:try to offer a few remarks after what had occurred
in tilf tonne of the debate, but more especially after
what had fpHen from-the Hon. Member for Shrews-
bury. He did not know how it might strike the
House, but he had heard nothing this evening to con-
vinee him that it wouldpot have been better to reserve
the Object for discussion .when the attention of the'
House might be directed to some more practical mea-
sure than had been suggested in this conversation.—
He would put it to the House whether the Hon. Gen-
tlemen opposite, if their sentiments were such as they
had avowed, had not lost much precious time since
the opening of the Session, in which they might have
submitted some measure to the House, founded on
the reasoning which they had just heard ? It was sin-
gular that course had not been taken which the Hon.
Member for Essex was disposed to favour, and which
it seemed probable might have been supported by
the Hon. Member for Coventry ; for, although he
believed him to have been one of its ardent support-
ers at the time it passed, he had ever since seemed to
have misgivings on the subject, and anxious to atone
for the part he had taken, by censuring the measure
on every occasion. He thought the Hon. Member
for Essex ought not to have contented himself with
complaining of the measure of 1819 as be had done
that night. Though he (the Marquis of Londonderry)
was.prepared in every possible point of view to up-
hold this Bill, with the sentiments entertained by that
Hon. Gentleman, he should rather have brought for-
ward some practical measure. He ought not to have
endeavoured to make the country dissatified with its
situation, but should rather have endeavoured to pre-
vail on Parliament to repeal that Act which he
thought so injurious to the best interests of the coun-
try.
He could now understand the Cootie pursued
by the Honourable Member for Shrewsbury. He
could not before understand why it was thought de-
sirable that, with imperfect views, they should enter
into the discussion of a subject which came before
them in no practical shape. But he could now see
the object of the Hon. Member for.Shrewsbury, and
he must enter his most solemn- protest against the
purpose which he had in view ; for, if he understood
him right, he wished to sound the public mindahrough
the channel of the distresses of the agricultural
classes, in order to ascertain if. they were disposed
to favour that most flagrant. deviation from sound
policy as well as floor common honesty--a breach
of faith towards the public creditor—(Hear; hea:o—
a British House of Commons eanoiion. such a
measure, it would relieve no class in the community,
but it would overwhelm all classes with ruin. Were
it possible for them to be-dishonest and base enough
to listen to a project.of National Bankruptcy, the re-
sult most be most calamitous. -If they could adopt
the idea of abandoning the Sinking. Fund to repeal
'taxes to that amount, it would prove as injurious as
unjust, and the faith of the nation would be sacrificed
without relieving the existing distress. To ascertain
this it was not necessary to wait for the consequences
'of such an experiment. Every man at all acquainted
with the subject knew that, were this done, it could
afford no essential relief—it would be but as a drop of
water in the sea—(Hear, hear):—Nay, he would go
further and say, that if the whole weight of our taxes
could by possibility be removed—as well tbose which
were necessary to support our establishments, as those
which were demanded to enable the country to fulfil
i.s engagements—if all *the taxes could at, once be
swept away, that degree of relief would not be afforded
that no distress should be felt—(Hear, hear).—This
was not the first time that the Honourable Member
for Shrewsbury had attacked the Government of the
country—not the present Administration, but the
Government generally, by imputing to them all the
distresses that were the subject of complaint, by
making them answerable for all the burdens thrown
on the country by the late war, and for events long
since passed by, over which they could have no con-
troul. That Hon. Gentleman might take a lesson
from his Friend near him, the Member for Portar-
lington,
who had shewn how small a portion of that
distress now complained of had been thrown on the
suffering individuals by taxation. Any man, who took
a rational view of this subject, must know that he was
attempting to mislead the Public when he represented
that the existing distress could be removed by any
remission of taxation. He must take this opportunity,
alter what had been advanced, of stating what he
knew the feelings of the country to be on this subject.
He would never believe, and he thought he knew its
temper well, that the country, under any degree of
suffering, would so far forget itself, as to favour in-
justice. He would not believe, that under any cir-
cumstances they would be disposed to break faithr
with the public creditor. The security which tie
Hon. Gentleman professed to offer, in the first in-
stance, by not calling on the public creditor to com-
pound, till the effect t.f reducing taxes to the amount
of the Sinking Fund had been tried, was no security
at all. They would give, by taking such a course,
`only a brief delay; for the certain consequences of
such a step were sufficiently known. The distress
was caused by the distress of the seasons, and the
markets; and therefore it was obvious could not be
cured by the remission of taxation, even though that
were pushed to the length of national bankruptcy.
On this point there could be no doubt; for if a Par-
liament could be found so degenerate, and a people
so destitute of honour and common honesty, as not
to start at the idea of such an abandonment of prin-
ciple, the most sordid calculation would forbid the
adoption of Such a measure ; as the want of protec-
tion for all the great interests of the nation, which
must be felt in that case, would make it worse than
useless, and instead of removing the evil it woald only
have the effect of largely aggravating that digress,
which"it was vainly proposed by such means to re-
rmedy. And here, when they heard so much of the
distress of the country, they must give him leave to
say, that the agriculturists were the only class in the
community who suffered. The manufacture's of the
country were in a state of great activity of exertion,
and a great increase of their social comforts had taken
place, which were likely to continue. The comm?lce
of the country was Hauridring, and ill every part the
utmost activity was to be remarked. He should re-
peat it, the only, body of men now offering under
the pressure of distress Was the agricultural part of
the community, and their situation was to be traced
to the course of the seasons and the consequent state
of the markets. Though abundance was desirable,

•

4,.134e:1
... • I
*aid a eirtaid Paid, it oetueseneci oval
like those gpitr, fek. From extensive competition the
markets declined, and the price pf coin shaken, that
*of cveiy 'Other article of
.agricUltur4 produce must
totter. Whatever was the situation of the agricul-
tural classes, it was not td be supposed there were no
indications of prosperity. He should rather say, that
the country was generally in a prosperous state.—
This was not the time to enter at large into the sub-
ject; but when every country.in Europe complained
of the same distress which 'afflicted the agricultural
classes in England, and when the distress extended
in an equal, if not in a superior degree, to Amei ica,
where it could not be imputed to exce,sive taxation,
it could not be maintained that the evil was caused
by the amount of our taxes. Such being the circum-
stances of the case, the House might safely .go to its
adjournment without any apprehension that the opi-
nions expressed by the Hon, Member for Shrewsbury,
on the subject of national faith, would find any fa-
vour out of doors. He believed it to be so well un-
derstood by the Public, that it was known a national
bankruptcy must he as fatal to the interests of those
for whose benefit it might be intended, as to those of
the parties at,whoseexpense it sluiuld be proposed to
be made—(Hear).—To this, every feeling, as well of
policy as of morality, was opposed; and, in this coun-
try, no principle was held more sacred than that which
bound them to do justice by those to whom the coun-
try was indebted—(Hear, hear). • - •
Mr. BENNET, in explanation, said he was far from
wishing to defraud the public creditor, but he consi-
dered the nation's faith to have been violated by the
Acti of 1797 and 1819.

The Marquis of LONDONDERRY had under-
stood the lion. Gentleman to say he would repeal
taxes to the amount. of the Sinking Fund, and this
not being sufficient, he would go further, and pay
the creditor.so far as he could with due regard to his
interest, acting as judge in his own case.
Mr. ELLICE explained 'the view he had taken of
the measure which he had been described to support.
Mr. RICARDO said he had been spoken of as a
great friend to taxes. He was an enemy to them
wherever they could be avoided with. justice, as he
trusted he had proved ever since Ifehad been a Mem-
ber of that House. •

Mr..PEEL-remarked that the subject could not be
gone fully into now.; and, as the imperfect discussion
of it would do no good, and might do much injury,
he would say very little on this occasion. He prin.
cipally rose that he might not for a moment be sup-
posed to acquiesce in the opinions expressed against
the Act of 1,819. The distress of the agricultural
holly, he would contend,.it was impossible could ari,e
from the cause which had been assigned. It was but
fair to look at the situation of other countries, and,
when it was seen that the same distress existed there
under other circumstances which was felt here, it was
too much to conclude that the peculiar circumstances
of this country were the necessary causes of the evil.
He would ask, was it not notorious that equal distress
was complained of in Flanders and in Switzerland ?1
In the latter country, it was so great that it had been
in some cases impossible for the land-owners to par.',
chase the necessary implements to till the ground.—
' Here then was proof that the distress now complained
of might spring from other causes than those which
had been assigned to it. On the subject of the Act of
1819, several prophecies had been advanced. It had
been said that a resumption of cash payments could
not be effected ; then it had been prophesied that the
Revenue must fail if the attempt were made. It was
supposed to have been proved that the same taxes
could not be levied if the currency were restored,
which were at that time paid in paper. But these
predictions had been proved false, for the resumption
to cash payments had been effected, and the Revenue,
instead of falling off, had largely increased. All be
desired was, that the merits of that Act should not
be tried by the pressure complained of by a particular
class or a particular interest, but by its general ope-
ration on the great interests of the country. He wished
the n to look at the state of the manufacturing classes,
at the reduction of the Moors' Rates in the manufac-
turing districts, at the comforts which all the manu-
facturers now enjoyed, and at the tranquillity which
prevailed in all the manufacturing towns. He wished
the House, to look at the flourishing state of our com-
merce generally. The distress of the agricultural
body was but a.partial feature, and that distress he
could not admit to have been caused by the change
in the currency. He was sorry that he had been led
to say even the few words he had now offered, and
had only to call on the House to suspend their judg-
ment on this case, till it could be discussed with that
attention which its importance deserved.
Mr. CALCItAFT argued, that the comparative
comfort of the manufacturing classes arose partly_
from their exemption from taxation, as from the de-
pressed state of agriculture the corn-grower was un-
able to charge the consumer with taxes which at-
tached to its production. The idea of advancing a
million of money to purchase corn would not relieve
the landed interest, as the price of the corn to be pur-
chased, that which WAS fit to be warehoused, was al-
ready sufficiently high. It was that which was da-
maged which was most in the way. If the recom-
mendations of this Report were carried into effect,
which he did not believe they ever would be, or any
part of them, he did not think they would afford the
agricultural classes relief. The Noble Marquis had
said not only that the remission of taxes to the amount
of 5,000,000!. would afford no relief, but he had said
if the whole 56,000,0001. now paid by the country
were swept away, it would yield no relief to either
landlord or tenant. This he considered a most ex-
traordinary proposition. The quantity of produce
on hand was at present so great that the price could
not be raised. What then was wanted ? Lowering
of rents—relief from tithes—reduction of poors'--
rates—alteration of the price of labour—and lastly,
a proportionate reduction of taxation—(Hear, hear).
These things were necessary ; but would any man
tell him that it was necessary to lower rent, and yet
declare that a reduction of taxes would afford no re-
lief ?—He was decidedly of opinion that policy, as
well as justice, &mandril that the public Lath should
be preserved inviolate; that to fail in this would be
most unwise, as well as most dishonest, and the con-
sequences must be in the end most ruinous for the
country. But, concurring as he did with what had
fallen from the Noble Li'ord on this subject, he begged
that he might not be supposed to agree that a remis-
sion of taxation could afford no relief. For the He-
pouf of all the papers ever sent forth from a Com-