Star.
London, England, 1812-06-12 00:00:00

ORDEItS IN COUNCIL.

Mr. ROSE gave notice, that he would to-morrow move, that
the House should, on Monday se'nnight, take into consideration
the evidence giver. at their bar, in the Committee ut the whole
House on the Orders in Council. (
Mr. BROUGHAM. did not know whether or not the Right
Hcn. Gentleman was apprised of the circumstance of his having
-iven notice of a motion of the same nature for next .1 tiesaay.
iie thought it right to tbrow this oak, fprltecolieforailoll of the
Right Hon. Gentleman.
ItOsE was 1. ertectly 'aware that the Honourable Gentle-
man had given notice of such a motion ; and in consequence of
that he save the notice he bad lust given, as it was Ms wish to
take the sense of the House on that subject.—(Hear;hear I)

THE ADMINISTRATION.

General GASCOIGNE wished to ask the Noble Lord (Lord
Castlereagh), it the Adthinistrption about to be formed was in
such a state of forwardness as to preclude the •necessity of the
motion of which be bad given notice?
Lord CA6TLEREAGH said, all the Offices of Government
were certainty nut yet filled up; but they were expected to be
filled up without further delay. the Ve ar and the r;onie De-
partments were placed snider Earl Bathurst and Viscount hid-
montb—(Hear, hear, bear !)
General :".;ASCOIGI‘E then withdrew his notice.
CATIIOLIC QUESTION.

Mr. CANNING, in ccnsequence of some repre-
sentations having been made to him, that the motion
of which he had given notice would be likely to meet
with opposition ircen certain quarters, in consequence
of some technical objections which were expected to
be raised against the form of p, oceeding by Addiess,
wished to make some variation in its form. The
objection was cne which would not have occurred to
him, but as he should be sorry to risk the loss of that
which was substantially his object, for the sake of
form, he would proceed in a different manner. It
was his intention to submit a Resolution to the
House, and afterwards move that that Resolution be
laid before the Prince Regent. It was his intention
to embody the substance of his intended Address in
a Resolution, and then move that that Resolution be
laid before his Royal Highness the Prince Regent.
On the motion of Mr. BROUGHAM, it was or-
dered that the House should to-morrow resolve itself
into a Committee of the whole House, on the Orders
in Council.

Sir FRANCIS BURDETT presented a petition
from Samuel Cuffurn, a Prisoner confined in the
Castle at Lancaster, complaining of the conduct of
the jailor.
Mr. W. BOOTLE could not suffer the petition
to lie on the table without expressing his strong con-
viction that every word it contained was false. The
person complained of was a most resrctable cha-
racter. In his life sci humane a person in such a
situation he had never known. • In proof of this he
instanced his conduct to one pris >ne? of the name ( f
Wardle—(a laugh)--and the conduct of those who
had liFen in his custody had till now been only that
of gratitude for kindness experienced from- one•who
was almost too humane to fill such a situation. If
the Petitioner were aggrieved, tht obvious course for
him to have pursued was to complain to the Magis-
trates or to the Grand itity. As, however, the Pe-
tition had got suifar.as the table of the House, he
hoped it would, not be suffered to rest there. He
hoped the Honourable Baronet would move to refer
it to a Committee.
Mr. BECKET wished thesubjtvt tobeenquired into.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT Could not pretend to
know any thing of the facts .stated in the Petition,
but it appeared to him they called for some enquiry.
The Petition was ordered to lie on the table.
THE ADMINISTRATION.
Mr. STEWART 'WORTLEY said, but a short
time had passed since he submitted a proposition to
the House respecting the Government of the coun-
try, in which the majority of the House had agreed

With him, The proceedings of the last three weeks'
were the consequence of that decision, and he was
how anxious, if possible, to get the Houle to agree
with him in the view he took of these proceedings,
and in the view which he believed was taken of them
by the country. The view which lie had formerly
taken of the Government about to be formed eves,
that it would not be such a Government as to he en-
titled to the respect and confidence of that House
and the country, and therefore he had theught it the
duty of that House to express a wish that an Admi-
; nietration' entitled to such respect and confidence,
might hefot med. Since such a wish 'was expressed
I by the House, three weeks had passed away, and
Ithey now found themselves at the same point from
which they had set out, with the same government
I and the same men at the head of affairs. Under cir-
cumstances like these, it was the duty of that House
to procure such explanations of what had passed, as
could be procured in that House, and then to express
their opinion of that which had been done. In order
that this might be distinctly understood, it would.he
necessary for him to take a short review (and short
i: should be) of what had been done within the last
I three weeks. In the•first place he had to observe,
1 that no advances had been made towards forming an
' Administration for ten days after The H .use came to
that vote to which he had before alluded. It was
title that certain explanations had taken place as to
what certain Administration should be then formed,
but no advances bad been made towards forming an
Administration within the time he had moved. He
was sorry that such a delay had occtrred, as what
had foiloeved he could not but attribute to such delay.
After ten days the Marquis Wellesley had been au-
thorised by the Prince Regent to form an Admini-
stration. This commission, however; had come to
nothing, and he was free to say, that in his ()Onion
it could only end as it did. The basis on which he
was authorised to treat was such, that nothing could
be expected from,it, as it seemed only likely to create
disunion, instead of removing differences. On Thurs-
day last, it was understood that the Earl of Moira
was commissioned by the Prince Regent to form an
Administration.. In consequence of his being so au-
thorised, the Noble Lord had consulted Lords Grey
and Grenville, to whom he had stated his authority
to treat•with them to be full 'and complete, withow
any restriction or reseeve whatever. Phis being the
state of the case, all the great questions were laid at
their feet, or at least left open for them to de!ermine
as they pleased. What then, under these circum-
stances, had brc ken r ff the negotiations ? It should
seem that the Noble Lord (Lord Moira) would not
agree to concede the exercise of the power of dismis-
sing the Prince's Household, as a preliminary condi-
tion. He did not knew that that which he had stated
was quite correct in words, but however, it came to
that in t ffect. The Noble Lord had refused to con-
cede the power of removing the Prince's Household
Officers as a preliminary condition, and on this the
negociation had broken cff. From this it appealed to
him, that the Noble Lords gave up all those great
objects which they had !a d in view on this account,
and in thus giving up the opportunity of adopting those
measures which they conceived to be of vital import-
ance to the country for such an object, their conduct
was in his opinion unjustifiable. (Ilear,heJr.) He knew
the excuse for it was, that they could nut accept of
office while that influence remained untouched, which
they thought existed to act against them. But did
net their conduct tend to strengthen that interest ?
Supposing for a moment, fcr the sake of argument,
such influence to exist, was that a reason why they
should refuse to accept of (Ace ?,Whatever influence
the officers of the household might be supposed to
have, would not that influence be as well out of office
as in ? Would not that influence be as much exerted
it they were out of office as if they had taken upon
themselves the administration of 'the government of
the country ? Was the conduct of the Noble Lords
in declining office on. such grounds the way to leave
the public mind less open to unfavourable impres-
sions ? •Hai,ing got those points conceded which
they had considered to be the principal objects they
had in view, he would have had them make a peace.
offering of the rest. If they looked to the state cf
the country, was it wise, was it politic, to stamp with
the colour of truth those rumours which had gone
forth on the subject of this influence to the public ?
And what was the advantages to be gained, if that for
which they contended had been given ? Would that
have given stability and efficiency to their Admitei-
stration ? How stood this matter of influence with
respect to the country ? How was it manifested ?
Were they to suppose that it prevented the Prince
from calling the Noble Lords and their friends to
office, when he was first made Regent, or that it
opposed their being summoned to his Councils when
the Restrictions ceased, to the injury of the country?
No proof of this appeared, and the conduct of the
Prince, in this respect, had been applauded by the
country. There appeared before the nation no proof
,of the existence of this influence; and the Noble
Lords, whose names he had mentioned, by refusing
to accept of office, for such a reason, at a time like
this, had, in his opinion, debarred themselves from
taking a place- in the Government at present ; and
he should think himself highly culpable if he were
to say otherwise. He had the honour of a personal
acquaintance with Lord Grey, and no man could
admire that Nobleman's great talents more than
himself. Ht had not the honour to be personally
acquainted -with Lord Grenville, but no one more i
sincereiy admired his abilities than he did. Be was'
sorry such talents were lost to the country. He was
sorry they were not gained to the public service, but .
he was satisfied that they could not be gained.— i
Still, however, he was not satisfied with the atrange-
ments which had been made ; be still thought a I
stronger Administration than- the present might have I
been tormed, without including either of -the two
Noble Lords : but if the Noble Lord employed to
:form an Administration (Lord Moira) had, when

he gale tip the commission with which he had I eee
honoured, on Monday. last. 'advised his R0y..1 I lig •
nen to call upon his aid advisers to f ,rm an Adm -
nistration, he Ought not to be surprised at What he
saw. He Wished to see an Administration ndisekl,
stronger than the present : one to which the c(lUtilTy
might lock tip with coitfideore. Such An Adm ni.
Ftration, he thought,.niight be raise 1, if his Royal
Highne3s were Wily enabled to avail
.14msen of the
talents in the ceunrry. With this feeling, he had •
drawn up an Address, in which be hoped the House •
would concur. If, however, he was ditappointed
in this respect, he should at all events have the sa•is-
faction of reflecting, that he bad zealously codes.
vowed to gain for bis country the best Admini.
stration that could be obtained: lie concluded by
moving,

" That. an hundile and dutiful Address be presented to Lb
Royal Flightless the Prince Regent, humbly thankirg him fir
his mast gracious answer to the Address of that House of the
..?ist of May, 'meriting the falure of his erdeoentin in kern
i! i Admini-iration on a rricrc extended basis, and at t'.e nine
Arne expressing an earnest hope that he would avail himself of
any en.ortunity that may occt* of acquiring additional strength
to his Majesty's Government." ,
Mr. CA RT WRIG HT objected to the pro' osed
address, as he thouellt it went to attach a something
like blame to the I ilostrieus Personage, whose duty
it was to exercise the executive power. In his ni,i-
nion no blame whatever appeared to attach it:eh to
the executive branch of the Government. It the
House did not support the Government of Lord Li-
verpool, under circumstances like the present, lie
thought their conduct would throw the tx,ctit.ve
beck on that party by whom his overtures had been
rejected. This he was most anxious to avert, and
would therefore give the motion his most decided
negative.
Lord FOLKSTONE thought the Address inade7
quate to the purpose for which it was moved. At a
crisis toe so alarming as the present, he thought it
necessary to express their sense of the present situa-
tion of the country. On this ground he thought the
Hon. Gentleman ought so have rested his motion,
and not on the Cabinet nelociations, %%HI e hith
they had nothing to do. It was Ceeir business to
consider the present 1 imentahle Pete of the country,
and the hands entrusted with the athninisn-ation of
its affairs, without coectrning themselves with the
Cabinet vegociations pending cut of doors. If
there were one part of the Constitution mere sacred
than another, it was that ullich left the appoino.
?tent of Ministers wholly to the Chief Magistrate '
of this country.—(hear, hear).—Any interference. . •
with the Crown in this respect, he coesidert.l as
extremely improper and unconstitutional.—(Neer).
He rise shottglittSe Honourable Gentleman -ereng
in censuring the Arable Lcrds for refusing to take
office, as he ( Lord Folkstone) conceived that it was
in the breast of every one to accept ( r to rt Ilse a pro.
position to place himself in a responsible situation;
j and that every man was at liberty to roes? wrtheut
' subjecting himself fairly to censure. He thought
the Hon. Gentleman had proceeded too far when he •
censured the Noble Lords, as there might have been
la something latent, a something concealed which in-
;fluenced their conduct, of which he could know
' nothing, but which might make it irrip(,sstlee tor
them to close with the overtures made to them, with
honour to themselves or with advantage to the coun-
try. The House ought to take into their considers.
tion the state of the finances of the counts y, her re-
lations with foreign powers, and leer situation at
home, in order to frame a suitable address in the pre-
sent state of things. It was almost impossible to look
at the papers lately presented to the House, and not
to be alarmed at the idea of the country remain aig in .
the hands of the same men who had brought it into
its present situation. From those it appeared that
the total official value of British manufactures, ex.
ported within the last twelve months, tell short t f the
amount of those of the preceding yearbyiel 0,000,000.
The sum raised by taxes within the same period had
fallen off by three million pounds, while the expendi.
ture cf the country was increased by five million'
pounds. On this subject he would not dwell ; but
iit was a subject of reasonable al.arm to see the Go-
-1 verement of the country entrusted to the same per.sens who, at the beginning of the present war, bad.
been declared by a vote of that Hot,s- .to be incompe-
tent to carry on the Administration. He cnecluded
hp moving as an amendment to the orit,inal mo-
tion, to take from it all the words but the word
" that," for the purpose of stating
" The deep regret of that House, that kis Royal Highness's
endeavours to carry Into effect the Address of that House of the
ei st of May last, Freeing for a strong Administration, had ulti-
mately tailed. 'That that House saw with the greatest sorrow,
`after his Royal Highness's most gracious answer to their former
Address, that he would immediately attend to it, and after the
i anxious eipeetations of the country excited in consequence, that
be had again entrusted the Government of the country to the
same men, against whom the former opinion of that House ap-
t peered tee:owlet!. That tin,;ar this. circumstances, It was du
I bounden duty of that House again to address his Royal High-
' mess on the perilous and alarming state of the realm/. and to in.
form Wm, that after all the sacrifices made in the.long end tryieg
contest in which the country is engaged, nothing but danger am-
! reared before it; as it appeared flop papers laid befure that •
House, that the commerce and trade of the cavalry were In a
1 state of the most rapid decay, anti the taxes less productive t I an
formerly. That while the resourois of the country was thus
impaired, the public expenditure had increased by civets! mil-
lions. aln aggravation of all these evils, the current coin of the
realm Lsd altogether disappeared, and a paper currency, 'vitriol&
rally of no value, was now made the legal reedier • that that
House could slot but think the present system must lead 'to a na-
tional bankruptcy, with all the fatal consequences of suck a ca.
lamity '1 hue situated, they felt it to be their duty to implore
his Royal Highness, as he valued the prosperity ofthe people area
the honour of the Crown, to summon to Lis Councils such men
alone who would tledge themselves to endeavour to 'reform all
existing abuts, and who, by their wisdoms, firmness, sad pry.
dente, might extricate the country from its precut difficulties,
and preserve it from the changers by which it was menaced."
Lord MILTON rose also to Move an autendateet,
but not one so voluminous, or embracing so many
topics, as that of his Noble Friend. He thought, on
so short ii notice, and without an opportunity cf going
into the deuilsa they ought not to rush into the pre.
a.

r nee of the Sovereign with an Address like that • I
which had just been proposed. He asTeed with the
last speaker, that the Hon. i;entlem .n ( Mr. S. Won.
ley) had put the question on a wrong tooting, as he
had not founded it on the situation of the country.—
He
strongly objected to the Govarnment of the coun-
try being entrusted to men who had been voted in-
competent, an:. particularly to the Right 1-I,•nourablel
Gentleman now at the head of the finances of the
cotnitry ( Mr. N. Vansittart) whose appointment by
the bye had been the occasion of the Hen. Gentleman r
man giving his notice for that address, which had been
tarried up to the Prince Regent. He objected to him, as I
being the great advocate of the present currency of the
country. He could not reconcile himself to the idea
of seeing the Government of the country intrusted to
the men, who eight years ago, were declared to be
Unfit to carry it on, when Mr. Pitt and Mr. Fox laid
aside their rivalry to put them down. These, how-
ever, were the men, to whom, now under more
trying circumstances, their deteriorated country was
to be entrusted. He gave his Hon. Friend (Mr. S.
Wortley) credit for a sincere wish to see a strong Ad-
ministration formed, but he thought the-Address he
had proposed, did not go sufficiently far, and that
not to go further, would lay the House open to im-
putations of pusillanimity. After some farther ob-
- nervations, the Noble Lord proposed an Address, ex.-
pressing regret that the expectations held out by the
Prince Regent's answer to the Addressof that House,
had not yet been realised, assuring him of a conti-
nuance oaf their zealous support in such measures as
they conceived to be most conducive to its interests at
borne and abroad, and imploring him no longer to
defer forming such an Administration as would be
at once entitled to the support of Parliament and the
sountry.
The SPEAKER observed, the Noble Lord could
not move his Address at present. The sense of the
House' could not be taken on it till that- already be-
fore it was negatived. He could therefore only be con-
sidered as hiving given notice, that he would move
an Address when the proper time came.
Mr. M. MONTAGUE, though he could not thins
the present Administration so good as might be wish-
ed, thought it equil to any that could be formed by
the opposite party. They had formed part of an
Adnainistrati( n which had carried on the business of
the country for a long time, and who had in his opi-
nion, and he believed in the opinion of the public,
carried the glory of the country to a higher pitch
than it had ever been carried before. Pie eulogized
the conduct of the Prime on the present occasion ;
lamented the disposition which appeared in the Ad-
ministration to depart in some measure from that
wise system on which they had long acted with re-
spect to the Roman Catholics, but stated it to be his
intention to give therwhis assistance and support, un-
influenced by any private motive.
Mr. G. VANSITTART adverted to the conduct
of the Sovereign on a former occasion, when the
House of Commons interfered with his right to ap-
point his Ministers; by resolving that they had a
right to advise his Majesty on all occasions. This
Resolution was come to on the 21st March, and on
the 24th, the King dissolved the Parliament, to take
the sense of the people on the subject, a resolution
which was fully justified by the event. He could not
do better than read a part of an Address from Berk-
shire, which was voted on that occasion, as it con-
tained what had always been his sentiments on that
question, sentiments which he yet felt no disposition
to change. He then proceeded to read part of an
Address approving of that constitutional right which
the Sovereign possesses to choose his own Ministers,
and deprecating any attempt •to trench upon that
right. Such attempts, if encouraged, would convert
the Government of this country from the best to the
worst of all Governments—as it would take from us a
limited Monarchy, -and give us in its place a turbu.
lent Democracy.
Sir T. TURTON lamented those circumstances
which had withheld from the services of the country,
the great talents of the Right Honourable Lords
Grey and Grenville. The Honourable Baronet main.
tained that the prerogative of the Crown would be
surrendered into the hands of an- oligarchy, if the
Household Officers were to be placed entirely at the
disposal of the Ministers. At the same time he meant
nothing invidious against the characters of the two
Noble Lords who were the objects of the late propo-
sals for forming an extended Administration in con-
formity with the vote of this House. With respect ,
to the principles upon which an Administration should
act at the present crisis, he could not avoid observing
that one of the topics upon which the discussions
with those Noble Lords proceeded, namely—the
Orders in Council, as a preliminaiy to the accept-
ance of office, was of the utmost importance. In his
opinion, if those Orderi were not repealed, this country
wculd in a few months be in a dreadful situation, in a
situation little short of civil war. As to the conduct
of the Marquis Wellesley, there was nothing in that
conduct to excite animadversion. Much had been
said of "personal animosities," but he believed, that
as far as respected the communication between the
Noble Marquis and the two Noble Lords, there was
something like a personal indisposition in the two No-
ble Lords to kin the Noble Marquis, and at such a
moment as the present, he thought personal feelings
ought to have nothing to do wi;11 public men. The
salvation of their country should be their' first object.
He hoped, that notwithstanding what had passed, the
sountry would still have the services of the Noble
Marquis and the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Canning). As to the measures which might be ne-
cessary to be pursued, if the war in the Peninsula was
to be carried on, he was for carrying it forward on an
extended scale.
Mr. D. GIDDY observed, that when tlte-Address
was voted, be was one of those who concurred in opi-
nion with the Member for Yorkshire, and on the

present occasion, when there was most assuredly
a great sensation excited in the country in conse-
quence of that vote, it became the House to exercise
the transcendent power with which they were invest-
ed with discretion. He had heard from some Gen-
tleman, that there were extreme cases when it was ne-
cessary to interpose between the Crown and the Go-
vernment, and by a vote of Parliament prevent the
Government of the country from being placed in the
liaads wholly of the Crown. There could not, bow-
ever, be a more inconvenient mode of proceeding than
in tollowi:tg up an extreme case of the kind alluded.
Ito, by Rutting a negative on the Prerogative of the

Crown. It had been said that this House had come Walpole's administration. The oMce was then cot.
to a vote upon the necessity of forming an efficient sidered not to be one in which much of political•bias
Admini,tration upon an extended scale. Undoubted- WAS infused. 'he Lord Steward of the House.l
ly they had done so, but under what circumstances) hold and the Master of the Horie were similarly ,
a notice of the motion had been only given the prece- circumstanced in the reign of king William ; the
ding day. At that time an opinion was entertained, Mister of the Horse was continued during the whole;
that the delay of a few minutes in coming to the vote, of it. He now came to the present reign, as he did
would have given a majority against the motion.— not wish to detain the House with going through the
Tf Gentlemen adverted to what passed on the same list, and he found that in 1761 Lord Talbot was ap-
evening shortly after the division, they must be pointed Lord Steward of the Household, which of-
satisfied that such would have been the fact.— fice he filled till 1781 ; during that interval political
[lf, however, extreme cases were to he entertain-' conflicts were as warm as at any period, and as much
ed, the very dictation of the Head of the Execu- zeal was shewn by parties. The Duke of Montague
I tiXe was in effect taxing the whole of the Government ! was made Master of the Horse from 1781 to 1790.
'into the hands of Parliament. But the House would, But these appointments were acquiesced in without
recollect, that though one branch of the Legislature complaint, during all the political squabbles which
had expressed an opinion upon the subject, the other 1 tlen took place ; and were not called into question,
branch bad not expressed any opinion at all; they I from motives of delicacy, and a conviction that the
'f.had not stated their disapprobation of the Ministry.: offices were distinct from political considerations.
Was this House then to adopt the language of con- What happened' in 1782 ? At that period Lord
troul ? A Noble Lord had put the question on a I North was compelled to retire, and from attention to
much beuer ground for discussion than the Mover oft the Sovereign's feelings, the nomination of one
the Address. He deprecated the conduct which `member of the old Government was conceded to the
s brought before the public the proceedings in the ne- ; Sovereign—for the Chancellor, Lord Thurlow, was
gociations for forming an extended Administration, allowed to remain in the Cabinet. The divisions and-
as highly inexpedient, and on other occasions as tend- parties which succeeded the secession of Lord North,
ing to embarrass the Government.—(Hear,hear, !) at the head of which were the Marquis of Rocking-
Nor was he aware how those, discussions could have ham and the Earl of Shelburne, made no objection
been put forth without infringing the oath which some :to the seleition of the Sovereign. If, therefore, the
of the parties had taken, as Privy Councillors, which Chancellor was then suffered to remain, delicacy on
oath of course precluded them from divulging any the present occasion might be attended to—at lean
thing which passed between their Royal Master and it was required. What, however, was the conduct
themselves.— (Hear, hear!) The simple question now of the Gentlemen opposite ? Disappointed of the di-
under consideration was, whether the present Mini- : rection of the Councils of the State, the proclama.
sters could be safely trusted to manage the affairs of ; tion of secret influence was sounded from a quarter,
I the-State ? And in deciding upon that question, the ; which, if founded in truth, furnished reflection- on the
Noble Lord had contended, that a vote of this House : Sovereign himself. If those to whom the communica-
had driven them from office in 1808, and therefore • tions were made for coming into power, possessed in
they were not competent to manage the resources of ', reality that love for country for which he (Mr. J.) had
the country, to carry on the war, and wield the ener-1 given them credit, they, as true patriots, would have
gies of the State in this moment of peril and of diffi- I accepted office, and have endeavoured to achieve tor
culty. But he would ask the Noble Lord, whether it , their country those blessings which they considered
was not fair to compare this country with other coun- were necessary. The Hon. Gentleman was prepared
tries, which ever since the time alluded to, had been to support any administration having for its object
wrested fiom the domination of their lawful Sove- the good of the Stater and he should be inclined to
reigns. England had, under the Administration de- support Lord Moira as Premier, and Mr. Whitbread
cried by the Noble Lord, defended the cause of the as Chancellor of the Exchequer (A laugh,) for
Peninsula with credit to herself; and if it was proper among the schemes which had run in his head, in
to defend that cause, of necessity great expences must respect to the formation of an efficient Administration,
have been incurred, for great exertions were called that was one which appeared to him as feasible, and
for. The Hon. Gentleman declared that he should likely to be ultimately beneficial to the countsy. But
not vote either for the Address of the Hon. Gentle- it seemed that the Gentlemen opposite were not fond
man, nor the Amendment of the two Noble Lords, of coalitions. The question was, whether the House
thinking the interference of Parliament incompatible was determined to force them into power and give
with the principles upon which he had generally acted. them the whole controul ? He waS prepared to ad-
At thisame time, he did not mean to say that he mit, that there was a seeming inconsistency in rune
• would oppose any Address which contained expres. Gentlemen coming back to office ; but if he could
esions that to him appeared unobjectionable. He ex- see any thing better for the country, he would most
• i pressed his entire confidence of the character of Lord readily adopt it, if not he should support the present
Moira, as a man of the strictest integrity and most Administration, He could not think so meanly of
unblemished reputation. them as other Gentlemen. Had not the Government
Mr. TIGHE differed in opinion from the Hon. received an accession of strength in my Lord Sid-1
1 Baronet, in his view of an oligarchy, for he thought mouth ? Was he not ainan of integrity and of talents
. ; that if the last proposal of the Noble Lord Moira had courted by Mr. Pitt, nay, even by the de Talents ?"
!been accepted, namely, of unrestricted power, then, —What was the occasion of the difference which the
I indeed, the Councils of the State would have been Noble Lord had with Mr. Pitt, and which led to the
t'surrendered into the hands of a desperate and in. resignation ? Why, this—that he would not, in vul-
i
noxious oligarchy.—( Hear, hear I)—Ministers were gar language, ~ go through thick and thin." He,
responsible for that power. The Hon. Gentleman with Mr. Bond, resisted one of the mostflagrant Jobs
ii who moved the address had said nothing about se- that ever came before Parliament, the case of the
Icret influence, but he could not deny that he had not Duke of Athol, and consequently resigned. It was
' heard of such influence—lt had reduced America, not true, that he was driven from office ignomini.
; and was now to be fanned in a Cabinet surrounded ously. In that assertion he was justified by what a
by a Cabinet of another description. It was undoubt- relation of his had told him, the late Sir Wm. Pulte-
edly the prerogative of the Crown to appoint the Mi- ney • to that respectable man the Noble Lord had
, I nisters, but was it not the duty of this House to ap- stated as his reasons for quitting office, 46 that he felt
peal against appointments which were not for the be- he held office only with the unreserved confidence of
nefit of the State ? The present Ministers had twice his Sovereign, that in this contest he found that Mr.
,relinquished their offices, confessing thereby their in. Pitt and Mr. Fox were in unison ; that if the should'
capacity—They were the relicts ofthe Pitt Admini. draw closer together, Ile could not retain that confi.'
stration, the rump of the rump of that Government. dente, and he found it necessary to retire in the ear.
With respect to the Address, he did not expect the ly stage of the contest, to escape those difficulties and,
Hon. Gentleman would have thrown cold water upon evils which were evidently arising." The merits of
his former Address, by moving such an Address as the Noble Lord *ere recognized, and were never
) the present. He thought the House would relinquish • more apparent than in the efficient way in which he
their duty, if they c`..d not follow the line prescribed got over the taxes. In 1806, upon the appointment et
in the original vote. i the s, Talents," those merits were fairly and justly
Mr. JOHNSTONE and Mr. GRATTAN rose acknowledged. The Administration of the Noble
at the same time • the call for Mr. Grattan was uni- Lord practised self-denial, and went out of office in
versal, but the former caught the Speaker's eye. ' a commendable manner, which was not to be avoie
The Hon. Gentleman was anxious to explain his ded—(a laugh.) The fact was so ; but what *as the
sentiments, though happy to hear the eloquence of the fact with respect to Mr. Fox and my Lord Gren-
Right Hon. Gentleman opposite. The Sovereign, he ville ? They were untried ; but when tried did they
4 observed, had a clear, acknowledged, and undis. ' quit office with a reputation for abilities as high as
puted right to nominate the Household—that was before they came into office ?—(Hear, hear.) Did
recognized from the Revolution downwards, and. their esteditions, to the Dardanelles, to Egypt, and
this he would shew, in utter contradiction to the to various parts of the world, justify the expectations
doctrine maintained by the Hon. Gentleman who which had been previously entertained of them ? For
had assumed, that when the Officers of the House.. himself, the Hon. Gentleman disclaimed all party
hold were appointed by the Sovereign, tbe reign of spirit ; because when he found upon any occasion the
secret influence began to exist. That was a doctrine • pniplic voice was against the Ministers, he f. •Ilowed
which he thought had been long exploded, and which : the voice of the public. Now, as to the measures of
none but the most vulgar would have again broach- the Government, he was one of those who never did
ed. The cry was generally raised by a party, when- approve of the Orders in Council. He thought that
ever a combination of talents were called into the the affairs of America presented a critical aspect ;
service of the Sovereign. It was so when Lord but it would be too much to assume that Govern.
Bute was about the Royal Person, and might have t went would not take such measures as should restore
I had move weight, when it was recollected that his the relations of amity with that Poser. As to the
early connection with his Majesty led to such a sup- financial difficulties under which the country labours,
position. If it ever did exist, that Nobleman might he had every reliance upon the abilities and know-
be charged with it : but what was the fact ? all the ledge of his Right Hon. Friend at the head of that
letters which he published, to the close of his life, department. He saw, however, no means of extrica.
completely contradicted the charge ; for he con- tion from the difficulties which surround us, by any
4 plained of the neglect of the Court, and was it vote of the kind adopted some days ago. The Ho-
-1 likely that he would have been neglected ? The cry nourable Gentleman concluded with stating his de-
followed the steps of Mr. Pitt and Lord Grenville, termination to support the motion for the Addleess.
when they came into power; and those Ministers Mr. GRATTAN was not dispose.' to trouble the
knew that it was a mere cry ; that it really had no House with many...observations ; but some remarks
existence, but that it was the cry of those who were f having been made upon the conduct of the two No-
disappointed of place and of power. (Hear, hear.) ble Lords Grey and Grenville, he thought thei,situ.
He would read a list of the various Officers of the anion required very great consideration and forbear-
Household from the Revolution to the present time ance. In thepart which they had taken during the nego.
—(if laugh.) In looking over that list, it would be ciations, they appeared to have made cvery effort for
seen that if matter of complaint arose as to the in. their country, which to their minds seemed consis-
fluence they posfessed, that complaint was seldom if fent with their duty. They were restrained from
ever followed by a change of the Officers when a new taking office (the love of office and the love of power
Ministry clime into power. In commencing with not being predominant) from a conviction that they
the names, he fauns& the Duke of Ormond Lord could not be of any service to their country. The
Chamberlain from 1660 to the Revolution in 1688; House must know that the refusal of office is a crime
then the Duke of Devonsfkire was appointed, and he, very few men would be guilty of ; it was an event
held the office till 1707. Passing over some inter- very seldom found in the annals of history.. Gentle.
mediate appointhunts, he found that in 17'24 the men would recollect, that in accepting office a Mini-
Duke of Grafton was appointed, and he held the ster was not likely to exalt his reputation, unless he
office till 1757, a period of thirty-two years, amidst possessed the confidence of his Sovereign : it was not
all those changes and various political conflicts which desirable that any Minister, let his opinions be right
agitated the country, particularly in Sir Robert or wrong, should be liable to have those opinions con-

tbtuteterjnobtya‘cncdse°tphdatt:hiereefeKccioiononffininigficudee:.enenifeelche'le;eofodtndpidinennit;earadlipos,m4of7:esthb,Libcc„:
irioohnuefilddpenopossessceseueof
he would lose the other. and if the confidence
Sovereign was withheld, then the loss of the
ern
must follow. The Household had certainly -
been considered in 1t political point of view, certainly
important ; but if the Noble Lords Glee' 8d CI
ville thought that it was possible there might he
Cabinets, a political Cabinet responsible, and a Hill
hold Cabinet, irresponsible, they acted wisely
thought disinterestedly, ant honestly most cert
in refusing to accept office. If such was thee,
nion, this House had no right to question theire
duct. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Johnstone)
made some allusion to Lord Sidmouth and hale
ministration, and the opinions of the two Nobku,
to whom he had just referred were in far= tifi
Catholic claims. He rejoiced to hear from Ansi
from the Noble Lord (Castlereagh) that she",
Lion was not to be opposed by the Adminitto
collectively, but it must be recollected that Loeti
mouth was a decided enemy_to that meesureigi
in so doing, he acted, no aubt, from coast
motives. That circumstance had induced a 4
him that the negociation of the Marquis IV*
had come to a-better conclusion ; the whole ord
parties named in the negociation were hoaotrd
men, and had performed a conscientious pae.
' consequently were little liable to animadversea,
Mr. ELLIOT would not take up the timid'
House as the question lay in a very narrow coa~sl
o. was in fact a question of great and paramonakel
stitutional importance. To the House of Larded
Commons the deliberate power of approval de
Government.belonged ; and to the Crown, them
berative power of choosing its Ministers. lei
House of Commons was vested the powerofwg
tiving that appontment of Ministers--of refuel'
support the choice, until that choice was saucem
by the confidence of the people. The centrcelefe
House is the very vital principle of the Coatis*
What had passed hitherto on the subject? Ave
had been come to, stating the sense which thislhe
entertained of the necessity of making a string a,
efficient Administration, implying thereby that
Administration then in power did not possessive'
fidence of Parliament, nor correspond with delete
of the country. What is the consequence
vote ? The Gentlemen exercising the poet:nit;
Government resigned their situations. A cc=
nication was made to the House, in aarwer to d
Address from the Prince Regent, expressing hied
termination to comply with the wishes of theca=
and the Ministcrs, that they were requested win
the r situations ud inkriw. Well I three seeks ekes
land nothing further was heard, till one of thetas
' Ministers came down to the House two days Ins
land informed' Parliament of a circnnuuncenil
the House should take care does not prove the dale,
of its character and authority—(Hear, a...) Wirt
was that circumstance ? Why, the comneeicain
of the fact, that his Royal Highness in answer to
vote of the House, calling for a stronger and nal
efficient Administration, had returned neon thew"
try the very Administration of which they compiles
ed t—(lirar, hear.) The Honourable Gentian;
(Mr. S. Wortley) hid stated, and assumed ,men
propositions, as arising in the negociatioa ism
the Marquis Wellesley and his Noble Friends, Did
he would pass over, and advert to the other, sib
last negociation with the Noble Earl (Wirt) 4.0
had certainly made a communication which was. I
for serious consideration--but when his Noblefinek
desired to know whether they were to be mood
with full powers of controul over the whole di
State Offices ? The Noble. Earl expressed his
from entering into any discussion of that quest*,
It therefore they had sacrificed their authority by
ceptance of office, under the tams catered,
would have divested themselves of all respolnhTle
over the State, and have recognised • that fa
which, of all others, was most dangerous, awn
divid rig the Court from die Government
hear.) The concession of the point w.
shewn the value annexed to the influence, whit
fluence, in conjunction,with anotb.r Houseisehl
to the Government, would have formed a molt.
cant barrier against the power of the Consul
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Cartwright)
denied the fact, but did not Lord Moira carry
minute of the conversation to the Prince, is
that the impediment in respect to the
might be removed. The advisers of the Crews,
ever, adhered to the principles they wished total's'
tain. Tim Houseboat remains as it was, and
measures on which his Noble Friends alone coailda:
cept office, were not abandoned, namely, cooceloads
to the Catholics, and the repeal of the Orders $
Council. Oia the other pofist titre had bcen a coy
promise, for the Ministers completely abjured. das
trust. Two mouths ago they declared, Mated
the unanimous opinion of the Cabinet, that the
tion of the admitstou of Catholic Colonels tri
rank of Geuerals could not be entertained :tile,
declete themselves of a different opinion.
would the friends of the Church say to this ; W
would the Judge of the Prerogative Court, the Mese
bet for Oxford, say, wren l:e found that thoseobirci
Ministers had drunk the dregs of the cup of p
humiliation ?—(Llear.) The question for the 1400
to decide was, whether on these grounds they
suffer a vote to be frustrated smog they °lobo
-come to, recollecting that the authority which
that vote in those critical times was an authors',
nesting from the people ?—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. BAT'HURS'r said, it was impossible to .
!'what had passed during the last three weeks ,
r out of sight, when the motions before the House
the speeches of Gentlemen were taken into conside!
Or.
Lion. It was contended that in consequerce
Address of the House some change in the Ado.
tration must take place. Negotiations to "baler
cithwanagsedhuaedtobeethnoseseitodoinvidfoouaut,
the grounds on which those n
The Right Hon. Gentleman then entered at.rE
'into the negotiations between the Earl of Moos sti:
Lords Grey and Grenville, and contended tillaird
egcotocheniyacernthatonedidiahtialg"r
latter Noble Lords, in insisting on the rielle,4o7
.pointing the Household, as a preliminary:
trenching on the prerogative of the Crown ;dam By AN
it was a proceeding unprecedented.
too s
kis Royal Hightteup therefore, oh- the s

l

I 1

)
1
1

I
1

tit Ili must could mobil abject coup. be. ob.Wneti, unless 8
at the same lame prevail on those No-
o
lit' Lads to accept of officO. It Was folly to talk of
•
bet talents being public property—no
Ufa/0d into tie public service against his inclina-
tioit_ana dahose Nbble Lords were convinced they
Could not,
under the existing circumstances, consci-
enaaesly accept of office, an Address of the House
ootild not remove thote conscientious scruples, al-
though it might become an additional obstacle to ac-
-comodation between the parties. He did not con-
cave that the House, by their former Address, wet e
paced in any dilemma at all, unless, indeed, it were
that, notwal,.standing all which might happen,
"sp they might hear—all they might see—and all they
surenise—they might still go on addressing,
have fresh negociations, which could only have
a similar termination to those which were past. He
toped the Hasse, by getting rid of the different mo-
tions now before it, would come to a decision, aye
et no, as to the efficiency or ineffpency of the present
Administration.
Lord YARMOUTH bore testimony to the efforts
which had been made in a high quarter, for the pur-
pose of obtaining the services of certain Noble Lords
ad Right Hon. Gentlemen ; no sacrifice had been
thought too great far that purpose. The demanded
mailte of the Household was to a greater extent
dim had ever been kdown on the formation of any
err Admioistration, or even on the commencement
efa new reign ; yet, when it was insisted on, himself
sad other persons, holding offices, had, by the medium
afa certain Right Hon. Gentleman, communicated
so the Noble Lords alluded to their readiness to re-
pie,—(Hear, hear !)—and only requested that they
eaght have notice ten minutes previous to the Seals
king delivered to :hose Noble Lords, that hey might
resign; that it might nor appear to the country as if
their Royal Master had been obliged to turn them
out—(Hear, hear.)—And he declared before Con,
be believed the only reason for those Noble Lords,
for insisting on their power of appointing the Officers
tithe Household, as a preliminary, was, that they
might have the power of putting this humiliation on
, the present Household.— (Loud and continued trice of
ber, hear.)
Mr. PONSONBY arose, and said that he hoped
the House would submit with patience to the length
of time he was imperiously necessitated to employ in
the vindication of his Noble Friends and of himself,
from the misconceptions under which it appeirene-
veral of the House laboured respecting their late con-
duct. He had hearkened to expressions of a dubious
complexion, employed by the Noble Lord (Yarmouth)
sad which he had assured the House, passed his lips
for the first time. Wto the Right Hon. Gentleman men-
tioned by the Noble Lord was, who po'sessed such
.transcendent talents, who was such delightful con:-
ray, he could not conjecture, butle would affirm,
a the names of my Lords Grey and Grenville, that
so tonject ure or assertion was ever made so erroneous-
II than that those Noble Persons determined to have
the Household Officers dismissed for the sole purpose
Gambling that person to whom all respect was slue.
Be was certain, that no• Right Honourable Gentle-
mu of his acquaintance c..ricerned in the negociation
to which he was himself admitted, would have for--
borate bad any such conversation happened, to have
immediately communicated it. Many persons were
presein now uho happened to be in company at that
time, upon whom he called to contradict him: had he
been guilty of any misrepresentation. There was a
pan of the Noble Lord's affirmations to which he
contemplated no immediate answer, which was the
principle upon which the responsible adeisers of the
Criiwn sought to contioul his Royal Highness by
amens of the Household ; to this he would advert to-
_wards the conclusion of his speech. Passing those
.ppininns for the present, he would proceed to relate
Occurrences as they happened in a train, with as much
dispatch and accuracy as possible. Upon the 2 lst of
lilt month, tie Parliament, upon the motion of the
IhMoui able Gentleman opposite, came to a resolution
to address cis Royal Highness to form a more strong
and efficient Administration, so that the great con-
cerns of the nation might be dispatched-with -ability
and con &fence. That.Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Wortley) he now saw opposite to him, he had been
accused of concerting the motion mutually between
them, and he called upon that Hon Gentleman to de-
clare upon his unsullied and spotless honour,as a Gen-
tleman,whether he had ever made any such communica-
tion, either with himself ar w th those in whom he lived
• in the intimacy I f private and political ti iendship. The
motion of the Address did not emanate from the side
of the House on which he had the honour of sitting,
neither elk it find its strongest support, from those
persons usually denominated Members. of the Oppo-
sition. It was nut laboriously patronized by the Op-
position ; too Gentlemen' only rose and delivered
their opinions ; for had any such desire been mani-
fested, the Hon. Gentleman would have occupied a
pound in appearance more tenable when Ile chose
to assert that they were not labaurin'g to get people
from power but to get themselves into it. He never
recollected any question of such importance front
Which there were so many of Opposition absent;
le intimation was so short, that Gentlemen who
'rite at 'a distance had nest time to receive intelli-
gence of it ; and the Ministerial side of the House
had the honour of passing a vote of incapacity upon
the Ministry almost rat ithout the participation of the
Opposition. He begged to say for his friends and
for himself;that they had no secret—no reserve upon
the subject ;
the 'more extensive .the capacities were
which the Administration could admit, the more
.Would they beogratifid, and the country assisted. It
bad been impressed upon the people's minds by the
tote of the House, that a coarstaion of ptiblic men,
of hitherto dissonant parties, was to take place, and
ita strong Administration, fulfilling the.expectancy of
the nation, would be the consequence. It certainly
Was the wish of all those persons wish whom he
lived in friendly habits, to
oalesce with the other
tentlemen whom igh t be called to the Administration.
It *as the determination of his two Noble Friends
and of himself to act with any men who could unite
coraiana .
ti e upon some of the great and pending ques-
et Present in -agitation in the public mind. They
Were desirous to cast 'heir portion of assistance into the
Frand politica balance, and aid all the resplendent ta-
lents which came to the support of the Government,
when the for 'nation 'of such an Administration was
"fruited to the capacity of his Noble Friend (the
144. • (14"vellesle. y) that Noble permit requested the
111114aage 4114 two Noble Friends (Grer and Gnu-
,

vile) infotming them, that all pat 4 predileettohs were
suppressed, and a general union of talents was to take
place for the furtherance of the common cause of their
country. When a call had been made upon those
Noble persons, in a manner to which they were obliged
to declare that they could not concede, the public
had a right to know upon what grounds they made
their resistance ; therefore, for the purpose of vindica-
Link their characters from all misconception, he begged
Indulgence- from the House to narrate the correspon-
dence in the order in which it had happened. Upon the
23d of last month, the Marquis Wellesley communica- ,
ted to Lords Grey and Grenville the plan of an Ad.
ministration, adapted, as it was described, to the pre-
sent posture of affairs. The Noble Marquis said that
he had been entrusted,by his Royal Highness,to collect
together an Administration of strength and character,
for the more happy dispatch of public affairs, but in
which he did not desire to take any situation.—
This Administration Was to be totally unmarked by
political dissensions. In the first place, the claims
of the Roman Catholids were to be brought to a si-
tuation of adjustment and conciliation ; and in the
) second place, the war upon the Peninsula was to be
! carried on in a more extensive scale of enterpi ize, by
an augmentation of the British Armies in Spain and
PortugaL Throughout all that communication to
his Noble Friends, the Marquis had not stated that
he, had any, authority to form an Administration at
that very time. He communicated only the views
intended to be entertained by the coalition of parties.
Upon the 24th of May, without either cavilling or
delay, the Lords Grey and Grenville dispatched the
following answer :•g4 That they considered it to he
the paramount duty of public men to abandon any
-object capable of promoting personal animosity, so
that efficient effect might be given to the vote of Ad-
dress moved by the House of Commons to his Royal
Highness ; an Administration capable of sustaining
the country successfully against the imminent peril in
which it appeared to be placed, was what they de-
sired watch to see; they had no disposition to cavil
at the admission of different parties. Respecting the
measures supposed to be the determination of the new
Government to adopt, they had formerly expressed
pretty amply their opinions upon the Catholic claims.
and in which they delighted to find they had the
concurrence of the Noble Marquis himself. They
would willingly support any motion i.f any person
that would lead to a conciliazory adjustm int of the
differences, without which, they found it introssible
to contribute their aid. In the next place they were
of opinion, that the direction of military operations
was a question of policy not of principle : All un-
stable fluctuating scene of operations, which expand
ed or contracted, according to the capacity or in-
clination of the country ; but they believed that a
careful hand to watch .;ver the public expenditure, at
a period like the present, would not he unacceptable
to the nation." A communication of the same na-
ture having been made to another cpt,irter, Lord
Grey believed that he perceived some difference be.
tween the one submitted to himself and the other,
which he deemed to be important. He accordingly
wrote to the Noble Marquis, informing hint of the
• distinction which he apprehended had been made,
and requested an explanation. Upon the receipt c f the
letter, Marquis Wellesley immediately transmitted an
answer,which cleared up all misapprehensions, and re-
stored the natural good understanding between them.
Matters passed on without any further notification
until the first day of June, when Marquis Welksley
wrote to his Noble Friends, informing them, that he
had received ample authority to arrange an Admini-
stration, and was specially aulioriied to communi-
cate with them upon that subject ; informing them
of the names of those persons designed to foim the
Administration. It was proposed, that if twelve
were nominated to the Cabinet, his Royal Highness
was to have the disposal of five of them ; and should
thirteen be found necessary, of these six were to be
of the appointment of his Royal Highness. The
Noble Lords considered the whole arrangement with
due deference, and, in a consultation, they concluded
upon the following answer :—" That they had con-
templated the whole scheme with much attention,
which had been submitted to them ; that they were
not deterred either from the distressed situation of the
public, nor from the influences of private feeling,
from accepting of the offiTs which had been made to
them of being employed, where they might have
been serviceable to their country ; but it appeared
to them, that a stipulated number of Cabinet Coun-
cillors, to be retained for nomination by his Royal
HighneSs, was a violation of the Address, for ,
forming a strong and efficient Administration ; i
nor could they perceive any hope of balancing
the Cabinet with propriety, by such a stipulation.
A Cabinet appeared to be a body of Councillors, fas-
tened together by mutual reliance upon each other's
capacities and integrity, possessing also the confidence
of the Crown and a concurrence in public measures;
but no hope of such a Cabinet was presented to them
by the plan submitted, and a certain deterioration of
character in their own estimation and in that of the
Public would undoubtedly follow their acceptance
of offices under such regulations." This explanation
was so broad and so ample, that it anticipated almost
all that he had to say upon the subject. The Crown
had hitherto been in the habit of summoning in able
men to its Councils, hut such a proposal as that was
of a nature so dissonant, that the first glance at it
repulsed the mind, let it have been ever so prone to
political compliance. For it took for granted, that
a certain system of opposite interests would display
themselves in the Cabinet, and attempted toriise abar-
rier against imaginary:terrors. The first principle of a
Cabinet was mutual confidence of its Members in each
other, a sound Political agreement, and total abhor-
rence of all jealousy and distinct interests. The an-
swer of the Noble Lords having been dispatched to
thy Lord Wellesley, no further correspondence took
place under the auspices of the Prince Regent. But
his Noble Friend, the Earl of Moira, returned a pri.
vate answer upon the 3d of June, wherein he lamented
that a negociation promising such happiness to the
country should be broken off upon points—and hoping
that no blame could be attached to him ; that letter
was written with the accustomed frankness and cour-
tesy of the Noble Earl, but unhappily it was not ex-
opinions of a higher authority than, hiorpn.
Prlneastsgter to which, Eafi Grey immediately wrote
that they were anxious to assist in the Government,
but for the failure of the negotiations they imputed no
blame to the Noble Earl; they discovered an utter
imeoseibilky of compl7rbg withlhgrequeitura 813164

prinenples. Upon the 4th of iune I 5 -d
Ck•ey received a letter froth the Noble Lord, saying
that he had received an est:A:orator* letter from Lo d
'Ci-ey, with whin!' he was gratified. He was not au a
that his Royal Highness had given further orders fur
a renewal of the negotiations, a circumstancewhich I:e
deeply lamented,as a verysuccessful explanation might
hare been made. He would be happy that under the
sanction of the Regenthe had received a commission so
conciliatory as to have effected the purpose for
which they negotiated. Lord Grey wrote an answer;
in which he and Lord Grenville professed a readi.
ness to comply with any desire of a conciliatory
nature which his Royal Highness might transmit.
Soon afterwards, under the authority of the Regent,
a meeting took place between Lords Grey and Gren-
ville on the one side, and the Earl of Moira, in
which Lord Erskine was present, upon the other.
This was at Sr. James's-place, on the 6th June. The
Earl of Moira informed him that he was authorized
to arrange a Government, and was desired to con-
sult with, their Lordships upon the plan. After
mentioning these concessions upon the Catholic
claims, they enquired whether or not the contem-
plated Ad miatistration was to be furnished with a
greater extent of authority over the great Officers of
the Household than what the former projected Ad--
ministration was projected to have, and which was
usually granted in new political arrangements ; to
which the Earl of Moira answered, that the Regent
had given him no information upon the sulsject, nor
had even hinted at such a concession. Upon this
the Noble Lords refused to accept of any offices
in which they would not be permitted the
power to give stability to the new arrangements. ,
The consultation closed, with mutual expressions of
regret. Upon the whole, then, what authority had j
.he Noble Lord ( Yarmouth) to say th it the remo-
vals in the Household were greater tit in before me-
ditated upon any change of Administration?—(Cries
set .‘ No! no!")—To give strength and efficacy to
ally Government—a mutual concurrence and agree-1
• went in principles upon which it is framed—next, a
good understanding with the Crown—and, lastli, a
good and sound character to each Member compos-
ing the Administration, and a countenance of honour
and a heart of integrity in the eyes of the people.—
These qualifications only gave strength and efficiency
to a Government. His Noble Friends had been rashly
blamed for hastily breaking up the negotiations, but
it was not their blame that they listened to them. If
an* blame could be attached, it %%veld be with the
Noble Marqu.s and Earl Maras who submitted plans
of Governments, without having well weighed the
principles of the Constitution. Such principles as
were held to be fundamental, and established firmly
at the glorious Revolution. It was a violation of
those principles which lost the House of Stuart the
Crown. The King, by the law of the Constitution, was
an irresponsible person, who was however under pro-
mise to employ confidential persons to support his go-
vernment and counsel him in the exercise °flits preroga-
tive. The House of Stuart told the Parliament that it
possessed no right to ii•terfere in those matters of state,
and by an unconstitutional resistance to the Parlia-
ment, compelled the people to dethrone them, and
place a more deserving family on the Throne. Al- I
though the Crow n had the prerogative to dismiss its
servants when it thought proper, nevertheless it was
bound to accept of coon ;el from the persons employed
under it. The Right Hon. Gentleman then proceeded
to enumerate the various changes of Administration
from 1786 to the present day, in every erne of which
the change of the Officers of the Household took
place as a necessary part of the measures of such Ad-
ministrations The Noble:Lords (Grey and Grenville)
therefore, only desired to ki.ow it vie), were to be per-
mined to use the same powers usual upon the change
of every Administration. There was not, therefore,
any thing so very extraordinary or extravagant in
this request. The Noble Lord (Moira) answered,
that although uninstru:ted upon this point, yet he I
himself thought, upon public grounds, it could not
be asseeted to. What then would the Public or the
Parliament have thought of these Noble Lords, if
they had conic into orrice upon a refusal of the ex-
ercise of the same powers which were permitted to all
other Administrations? What could be more de-
structive, wnat could be more opposite to the princi-
ples of the Constitution, than that die executive offi-
ces of the State should be under one controul, and
the Officers of the Ca curt under another ? What would
be thought of them, if they had condescended to
abandon this principle, a principle hitherto sheaving
no distincti:n between the great Officers of the State,
and the great Officers of the Crown. But were these
Noble Lords justified by any thing that passed, in
abandoning those principles which had been insisted
upon by all their predecessors? For although the
House had voted an Address for a strong and efficient
Administration, this. first proposal was not very likely
to attain that most desirable object. They were never
honoured by a personal interview with his Royal
Highness the Prince Regent.;--(Hear, hear,)— the
ordinary and usual practice upon the formation of
every new Administrat on ; but the practice upon the
present occasion was quite different ; nor did the pro-
posal itself convey to them any pretence that they
possessed the confidence of the Crown. Under what
circumstances then could they have hoped to bring
forward the Catholic question I In this House there
had been always a majority against them upon that
question, and they were determined not to form any
Administration unless they could carry that ques-
tion. Were they then to come to this Hduse with
this mark branded upon them, while in order to
carry that question every mark of the confidence
of the Crown was absolutely necessary.?—
With respect to America the difficulties would
be still greater, and from the present complexion
of affairs as connected with that country, that
which might have been easily adjusted two or three
year; back, they might now find impossible. The
third question, which related to an economical re-
form in the expenditure, and upon which a Bill
was now pending in that House, brought forward
by an Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) on
which he had been able to obtain only a majo-
rity of nine. Could it be expected, that a Minis.
try so formed under difficulties of this sort, and not
supported by the confidence of the Crown, could carry
such a measure? But the odious task was to-be
put upon them by first denying them the power over
the Household, and granting them the more odious ,
task of afterwards displacing Members of Parlia- I
mot kw their v*.. ILlait wore time is tbat k lave

•

ileitis wi'il knew the Noble tor& Were, not artnatist
in this by any narrow ar riirso. ttl fii!btivet wh ~evers
and it a union could have been med ilpon thwe
principles, the House must do then' the justice to
say, this they manifested every dispoSition to have
the negociation forwarded. With regard. lo the pre-
sent motion heft re the Hotite, howeVei highly he sec
spected the character of the Honourable Centlem.in
who brought it forward,- yet at he understood it, it
was rather a motion to keep in the present Admini-
stration, which the House had already voted to be
inefficient ; and however they might have the power
of availing themselves of any accidental aid, from
any quarter from which it might come, still they
were in a state of weakness and intufficiencr. The
motion, he thought, did net go far enough, and he be-
lieved there never was an instance before of the H use
voting an Address for a change of Administration,
and then resting satisfied with having the sand
Administration again. It was not for any accesvon
of strength and efficiency they could approve of them,
for there was none. It could not be from the adop-
' tioa of any conciliating measures, for a Noble Lord,
a Member of this Administration ( Lord'Harrowby)
had declared-in another place, that they remained in
office for the purpose of preventing the government
from falling into the hands of thosesttliose opinions
and pr:aciples had been condemned by the country ;
' m other words, to prevent the acct Itrat on of the Ca-
tholic claims: But it was said, the Catholic question
would not be made a Cabinet measure, and if not a
Cabinet measure, it never could be a Legislative one,
for if they dicl not undertake this, it never could bd
carried, for he never knew any great measure having
a successful termination, without it was first made a
Cabinet measure. Such meastireshad beencarried by
the opposition, but it was after di at oppo ;i tion had been
changed into an Administration, and taken into the
service of the Crown. Were they to come to the
conclusion, that the Government had no opinion
upon a question involving the pease and huppiness
of one-fifth part of the empire, and upwards of four
snilliens of 'his Majesty's subjects If he was wrong
in•this, then most happy should he be to set his
opinion erroneous, and the conduct of the Cabinet
contradicting his predictions. Under these circum-
stances, be hoped his Noble Friends (Grey and
Grenville) stood acquitted from any wish to Mono-
polize power to themselves; tb it they stood acquit-
ted of any wish to hurt the feelings of any person
whatever, but, above all, the Illustrious Persenaee so
uflen alluded to ; they were incapable any such
motives; they had acted not on private, but public
grounds. He entirely agreed in the Amendment of
his Noble Friend ( Folkestone) in all fan:; at
the same time he did conceive that it contained too
much matter of detail for the Heuse to enter into at
present.- He was, therefore, ready to vote fur the
Amendment of his other Noble Friend (Lord Mil.
ton), which was consistent with the dignity of the
House and the principles of the Constitution.
Mr. BATHURST shortly explained.
Mr. CANNING observed, that the humble share
which it was his fortune to have had in the late tran- '
sactions, might probably lead the House to expect
that he would trespass on their attention for a short
time at least, on the present occasion. Indeed he
felt that he had no option but to come forward to
defend many .particulars of the conduct of two Noble
Persons with whom he bad successively the honour
to act, which had been misunderstood. In doing
this he would abstain from saying any thing of him-
self except where it was necessary he should do se.
The Righ: Hon. Gentleman had truly stated that the
vote of the House of Commons, in which all the late
proceedings originated, was a vote to provide a more
strong and efficient Administration; but the Right
Hon. Gentleman was in error, in taking it for granted,
that' an Administration possessing those qua;ities
could be formed only in one way; a way that would
inevitably cut short the labours of auy person em-
I powered to conduct the formation of it, by leaving
him nothing to do, but to suirender his commission
immediately into the hands from which he received
it—namely, by giving the preponderance to the party
who possessed a numerical advantage of the House of
Commons. It was by no means the Marqeis Welles-
ley's opinion, or his, that because the party of the
Noble Lords, and of the *Gentlemen opposite was nu-
merically larger than his ; -he should therefore be con-
tented to merge himself and his commission in that
party. The history of the country afforded noprecedent
of such a proceeding. It was true, that an Administra-
tion was the most strong, when it combined no con-
flicting principles or contrariety of opinions, when all
the Members of which it consisted were of sitnilir
opinions, aed had been in long previous habits of
concerting together plans of public policy; but with
this conviction on his mind, his Noble Friend (Lord
Wellesley), when he was first authorised by the Re-
gent, thought nevertheless with him that it was pos.
sible to form an Administration pf no inconsiderable
strength, by uniting those who having differed on
former politics, and differing on points of minor im-
portance, were agreed on subjects vitally affecting
our external and internal relations. In addition to
the two questions which had been selected by Lord ,
Wellesley as the tests on which public men might
come together, it was evident that there Were others
of great importance, but of more doubtful policy,
on which concurring in the two principal sub-
jects they might be brought to agree by persttaii
sion or concession. The Orders in Council for in.
I stance was one of these. It did, however. appear to
Lord Wellesley that the two grand objects on which
it was indispensible to ascertain the sentiments of the
' new Administration, were, one, the leaning feature a'
the internal policy. the other comprehending almost
all the external system of the policy of the country
and that having effected an union ofppinioa on those
two great points, a basis would be formed sufficiently
strong to bear any superstructure of other opinions
that might be raised upon it. These two great gum
dons were Catholic concession, and the war in the
Peninsula. He admitted that the manner in which
Lord Wellesley's proposition had been met by
the Right Honourable Gentleman and his Prism&
opposite, was perfectly fair and honourable...le
On the subject of the Peninsula war, they had been
asked whether they came with a disposition to nubs
;he carrying on of that war the principle of their
policy, subject to consideration wish respect to the
=EMS and ustlint l or whedaer they were dispomd so
make the abandonineat of the wee !heir tt
;mi
subject to consideriuiona of the. . 7. of
*nog it ;boy bAd Ips low

' tli.e4e prryositions, no union could have taken place ;
if the former, they would have demanded no more
P than what men of sense were entitled to demand.
lie .(Mr. Canning) th n read a letter from Lord
Wellesley to Lord Grey, and the rep r, explaining
the causes of the vAriation which appeared on the
face of the proposition made by him (Mr. Canning)
to Lord Liverpool, and by Lord Wellesley to Lbrd
Grey, which •difference originated in the circum-
stance of his and his INltble Friend's havi•~,r gone to
their respective conferences without having previously
' seduced into writing the communications which it
was their intention to make. It being Lord Wel-
lesley's object to form a comprehensive Admini-
stration, a proposition was made to the Members
of the present Administration, of which he (Mr. Can-
ning) was the beAier. He read the antwer of Lord
Liverpool to this proposition, which declined on his
part, and on that of his colleagues, any p.srticiption
in an Administration to be formed by Lold Welles-
i ley. On.rgceiving this Answer, he wrote a private
lttter.to Lord Liverpool, suggesting to him to con-
sider how such a personal objeaion would appear in
the eyes of the country. In his reply. Lord Liver-
pool disclaimed any motive purely personal, but de-
. glared, that after the recent occurrences, he and his
colleagues would think themselves wanting to their
own character, and to that if their departed Friend,
were they to entertain any such proposition from
Lord Wellesley. Lord Welleilley had made too trium-
phant a justification of 'himself, in another place, on
this point, to render it necessary for him (Mr. Can-
ning) to say one word on the subject. He accounted
for the delay in the proceedings to which the Right
Honourable Gentleman had alluded, by stating, that
during that period attempts were made (it was not
fit that he should say from what quarter), to remove
the objections of the late Colleagues of Lord Wel-
lesley to coalesce with him in the Administration.—
! When these attempts had failed, formal authority
was given to Lord Wellesley to make the proposi.
tion which the Honourable Gentleman maintained
would not bear a moment's consideration, but which
be (Mr. C.) contended was illiberal and even a rash
conception. He did not impute any blame to the
Noble Lords for their rejection of the proposal made
to them by Lord Wellesley ; but it was evident that
that rejection proceeded from a wish that the whole
power of the Government should be surrendered
into their hands. Lord Wellesley then surrender-
ed his commission, which was immediately trans.
ferred to Lord Moira. Of the negociation that then
took place, he knew nothing but from others ;
but he thought it only justice to Lord Moira to read
the correspondeuce which passed on the occasion.
—The first was a private note from Lord Moira to
Lords Grey and Grenville, stating, that they would
express themselves on the subject in such a way, as
to induce him to ..pply to.the Regent for formal per:
mission to address him on the s bject. The answer
expressed the sense which the Noble Lords enter-
tained of the kind motives of Lord Moira; but de-
clined affording the opportunity wllich he requested.
The next documents was another note from Lord
Moira, s:atii.g. that he had,notwithstanding, obtained
authority from the regent, to address Lords Grey and
Grenville on the tormition of an AdministratiOn, and
'wishing to know when an interview could take
place. The interview, the minutes of which had been
read by the Right Honourable Gentleman, fol-
lowed, but he (Mr. Canning) contended that those
minutes by no means bore the construction which

the Right -Honourable Gentleman put upon them.—
No hedge of sanctity was placed round the House-
hold. Lord Moira's power was not limited, but that
Noble Lord, with the frankness and candour which
distinguished him, declared that he would resist the
application of that power to the purposes Mentioned
by Lords Grey and Grenville. Could any thing (said
Mr. Canning), be more just? Was Lord Moira's
power to be unfettered by discretion, because It was
unlettered by instruction ? To make thaysignation
of the great Officers of the Household, the first act of
a new Administration, would have been to fix on an,
Illustrious Personage, those-imputations which were
so generally, but so falsely thrown out against him.—
It was on public grounds alone, and from a due sense
of die mischievous consequences that would ensue,
that Lord Moira refused to accede to the propesitions
of the Noble Lords. Lord Moira had authorised

him tt) state that atter the rupture of the negocia.
Lion. fearing he might have misunderstood the
exttnt of the powers given to him by the Regent
ui.ll respect to the Household, on his return to
Carlton House, he asked his Royal Highness whe-
ther he was prepared to give up the services
of any of the Officers of his Household, if he (Lord
Moira) thought it.was necessary for the public bene-
fit ? The answer was, that his Royal Highness was
. "ready to give them all up it it was for die benefit of
the. country. Ott which Lord Moira rejoiced, that
'nor cthe t,t them bhvuld be removed:—(Rear, /sear.)
lie thoutht the Noble Earl's conduct on this occasion
Completely just fi•ble. There was an apprehension
I that, on surrendering his commission to the Regent,
! Lord• Moira advised- the removal of the farmer Go-
vernment. He had, however, seen Lord Moira in
five minutes after he had quitted the Prince's closet,
whu related to him all that had passed, in the %thole
of which there was not a tittic of that nature. He
deeply lameitted the failure of the negoeiation for
bringing •in the N.,01e Lords and the Gentlemen
opposite. Another opportunity for trying such an
expetiment as endeavi uring to assemble in the Cabi-
net ind viduals of variou, political opinions, might
not soon recur. borne mig.a. Mug.= the advantages
of such a proceeding chirucrkal. He was not of that
number. He deprecated any combination of men of
consequence in the country, to bias or coutroul the
sovereign authoi ity it, the exercise of its undoubted
prerogative of nominating Ministers, and concluded
by advising his Hon. Friend (Mr. Wortley) to with-
draw his motion ; on which at any rate he (Mr. Can-
ni.ng) would nut teal intitled to vote.
Mr. PONSON BY iIticiMr.CANNHIG mutually explained
• • Mr. TIERNEY said he was obliged to rise to ad-
dress the House on halal: of two Noble Friends of
'his. He was sorry to hear troni his Right Honour-
able Friend (Mr. Canning), that the same offe•
v.ould never be made again—he meant to his Noble
Friends (Lords Grey and Grenville). In his (NI.
Tierney's) youth, he was prepossessed apainst ars
toeracy ; but he found, in a long political life, th. t
ihis Noble Friends possessed honour and integrity
and had to heart only the prosperity of their country.
tlrtir.l *They were called on to give au answer to

his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Wellesley) to two i to personal allusions, which he was called on by a
nuestiens, which' they answered in that mode he ex- sense of propriety to notice.
petted from them : but the Right Hon. Gentleman, ' Mr. TIERNEY, in explanation, repeated the con-
f,,r the lapse of time that intervened before the con- , versation which had taken place between him and his
elusion of the negociation for the Marquis of Welles. Right Honourable Friend, and disclaimed any per-
ley, was tampering with the present Ministers, as he ; sonal allusion.
considered them strong enough to act for the benefit I Lord R. SEYMOTJR•confirmed the statement of
of the country if they had the Right Hon. Gentle- the Noble Lord (Yarmouth), by shortly stating that
,
man's assistance. It never 'was asked of the Crown it had been the intention of the Household to resign.
to abandon its rights—(Hear);— hut it came to a Mr. FULLER. observed, that the whole matter
more serious question, Whether the Cabinet had a clearly came out now, and it was shewn, th'at all that
right, on the present day, to demand what was the Noble Lords wanted was to get power and pout).
granted to other Cabinets ? Were his Noble Friends nage. All they asked was, shall- we have so and so?
to put themselves in a worse situation titan those others shall we be allowed this place? and shall we have that?
who took upon themselves the same responsibility? Was this their love for their country? (laughter) was
With tegard to the proposition made by Lord Moira, this their pretensions to patriotism ? No! it was a
they, Lords Grey and Grenville, were arraigned for love of places and pensions, and power and emolu-
having dashed to the ground all the hopes that had silent (laughter). It was a steady inquiry what plates
been raised in the country relative to the formation they could get to enrich those who could tell• them
of a strong Administration, by the stand they had they had done so and so— (a f laugh)—They were de.
made against the Household. That matter was, in termined to take every thing, and not to leave their
his opinion, capable of a most easy explanation. la ' Princel even the friend of his heart.—But Lord
return for the fairness with which the Noble Earl Moira had acted like a man of honour, and thewhole
had approached, these Noble Lords had thought country felt and acknowledged that he had proved a
it but equally fair to state at once, and explicitly, true friend to his Prince. As for all these motions
the grounds on which they could meet the prop*. for the formation of Administrations on broad bases,
sition made to them, so as to bring it to a satisfiet !,Jny such means they could never be realized.—These
tory termination. This, in Abe first place, they Noble Lords had had the fairest propositions made
did, with regard to the Household ; not, as was to them, but they would not throw aside their
imagined by some, requiring that the , whole r prejudices, either for the good of their country or
should give way, but only that the officers usually i the service of their Sovereign. In this case
removed ou the appointment of a new Cabinet, ; the country would support the seen placed at
should, in the present instance, be displaced. But ' her head, in opposition to an Oligarchy, the very
then they had this night received information en- worst of all Governments—a Government of ten
tirely new, in what the Right Hon. Gentleman had Cardinal Wolseys, instead of one—(Much laughter, and
stated as the conversation between the Prince Regent crier of Hear.) He desired them, if they chose, to go
and Lord Moira, at the conclusion of his mission.— I back to their constituents, and was sure they would
• For his part be would have thought that to have read not have twenty votes in the country—(o laugh.)—
the minute of the negociation to his Royal Highness, Neither their principles, nor these sort of motions,
would have been ..he most obvious course for his were necessary, and they ought to be resisted. If
Lordship to have pursued ; but instead of this he they thought themselves better than the Ministers ap-
had, somewhat in the Right Hon. Gentleman's own pointed, let them attack their measures, and put
manner, adopted a more theatrical mode of ma- themselves in their places if they could—(Hear,) but
naging the business; as they were informed that he he was convinced the country and the House would
having received from the Prince' an assurance that support them against all such attacks.
his Royal Highness would consent to displace all his Mr. MARTIN did not approve of the proposition
Household, replied, 44 Then not one of' them shall to remove the Officers of the Household. He con-
' go." But even the Noble Earl could not have kept ceived that the Prince Regent had been bound to re-
his promise in this respect, for it seemed the Noble jest it. Such a proposition would have been made
Lord (Yarmouth) would not have remained. Could with more • grace fr m a Cabinet, than from those
there be stnydoubt then, in the mind of the House, who were going, as it were, to take possession of the
that the whole of this breach of the' negociation , Palace.
arose from a misunderstanding ; and that if the
willingness to retire, in these Officers of the
. Household had ever been explained, there would
have been no difficulty in bringing the arrange-
ment with his Noble Friends to the desired
conclusion ? Nod they once been told that the
Noble Lord and his Friends were ready to retire
at ten minutes notice, the great obstacle in the way
of their accepting place would have been removed.—
There could be no insult in their stating this to be a
necessary preliminary, that the Household Offices
usually given up, should be given up to them, and it
could only have been an insult, had they been aware
of this readiness to retire. and had insisted on the
• Members rernaiuingin, fur the purpose of being dis-
, missed. All would have been smooth, and it would
Ihave been unnecessary to make any minute, but as it
I was, without meaning the most distant imputation on
Earl Moira, be would say, that if any trick or device
' could have been framed to break off the negotiation,
it was that very thing which was done.—(Hear, hear,
hear.) For himself:he could declare, that, however-
well known the Noble Lord (Yarmouth) stated the
intention of the Household Officers to resign, he,
on the sixth of June, had never heard of that in-
tention. He had applied to a_ Right Honourable
i Friend of his (Mr. Sheridan) fir infOrmation on this
subject, having heard. it rumoured that one brother
of a Noble Marquis (Hertford) had intimated that
they had resigned, or were about to resign, while
another brother had held a contrary language. To_
this application, his Right Hon. Friend bad replied,
" I will bet you 500 guineas that no such thing was
ever in contemplation." .He had mentioned this anec-
dote to many, and therefore it was not brought up for
the purpose of debate, but was a complete answer to
the supposed notoriety of the fact, -with which it
appeared that even Lord Moira was not acquainted.
It was indeed something very extraordinary that this
matter should have gone to the Regent, and never
have come back to the parties immediately concerned.
As for the charge of breaking off the negotiations,
without meaning to insinuate the slightest degree of
blame against that Noble Lord, he must say it lay at
the door of Earl Moira only, and his Noble Friends
(Lords Grey and Grenville) must be acquitted of
any thing but of having shewn an earnest disposition
to assent to the proposal made to them. The question
now before them was, what course they had to take
in consequence of the restoration tb suspended ani-
mation in the Noble Lords and Right Hon. Gentle-
men opposite ?—(if laugh.)—They were' he identical
men against whom the former vote of the House had
passed, and nothing had since happened to make them
alter their opinions of their inefficiency. 19at
the Administration, the House and Country, demand.
ed three weeks ago, might after the explanation of this
night, be formed to-morrow. No obstacle remained,
and if the parties were put again into Lord Moira's
room, every difficulty would now easily be overcome.
(Laughter, and cry of Ifear.)—The Honourabl Gen-
tleman proceeded to argue this point in a more grave
manner, and afterwards in an ironical way described
the present Cabinet as Liberty Hall, where every
Member was to adhere to his own opinions, as in
the' case of the Catholic question. It was nonsense
to say that this important matter was not to be
considered as a Cabinet question—it was obvious that,
instead of consideration by the Government to the
effect of devising conciliatory measures, a majority in
the Cabinet would do all in the r power to thwart it.
It would be strange if they treated other great politi-
cal points in the same way. The war in the Penin-
sula for instance— in which one Minister might be
for coming down to the House of Commons for 10
millions of money and 50,000 men to carry on the
war, while another would say, " No I that is too much
—let me have £5OO and a corporal's guard."—(4
tough.)—He enlarged upon the necessity of coining
to some resolution, and gave the preference to that
moved by his Noble Friend (Lord Milton.)
Lord YARMOUTH, in explanation, observed,
that the Right Honourable Gentleman bal.:lammed

Lord CASTLEREAGH said, at that late hour
he should be short in what he bad to say. On the
practical part of the subject before the House he
would say but little, but there were a few points
which he was called on to notice, and in the observa-
tions he had to make, it would be his study to avoid
aggravating the feelings of public men. At the same
time he should be unwilling to provoke any hostility
injurious at this time to the true interests of the coun-
try. As far as the Motion went, it was one of the
most unobjectionable that could possibly be adopted.
Upon the words of it, he has no hesitation in being a
party to them. With respect to the Principle winch
went to strengthen the Government there would be
no difference of opinion, but when they came to look
at it, he would ask, whether it did not cast a shade
on the present Administration t What could be the
meaning of the Address, but- a suggestion of the
disqualification of the Administration ? With re-
spect to the Administration, he would not assume
any unbecoming humility, and fie" would' say, that
whatever difficulties had interposed • between them
and their services to the Country, they had shown
no disposition to afford those services after the vote
against them in that House.—After three or f .ur
weeks had elapsed in the attempt to form an Admi-
nistration, nothing had been done, and the Crown
was finally obliged tocall on the late Administi ati‘ n.
It was a pleasure for its Members to reflect, that they
never had stood between the wishes of the Crown and
the country, and that, on this occasion, they hai
not abandoned their country. They craved from the
House no more than constitutional support. ( gear,
hear.) If they merited approbation they would have
it ; if in the judgment of the House they were not
entitled to it they would bow to its decision. (Hear,
hear.) The Noble Lord then deprecated the mea.
sures pursued of late for the formation of a ministry. He was
convinced that the recent proceeding. had been detrimental to
the public. He could augur no goe.l from a negotiation for an
diciest Administration vrhon public men could not meet .n
room without pea, ink, and paper, to draw up principles on which
they were to act. (Hear I hear!] He trusted that those
poceedings would b • a lesson to public men, to reach them never
to resort to such proceedings, with the suppositiou that the same
could be beneficial. He trusted that, in the examples which had
arisen in the coarse of the calamitous events, public men would
derive important and useidl information. His knowledge of
the whole of these negociations was proscribed. He had not been
party to any of them. It had so happened that he had not bad
access to his Royal Highness since the eight of the Vote passed
in that House adverse to the Ministry. The only part of the
transactions that be hadtaken was one which, on intimation, was
made by Lord Wellesley, to know whether a part of the Cabinet
would form a part of the new Administration. iliere the No-
ble Lord paid the highest tribute to the character, talents, and
strict honour of the Noble Marquis. He admired him above all,
as the brother of the greatest soldier, and it was painful for him
so reffect that his Colleagues were not able to assist the Noble
Magnis in the efforts elected to form an Administration. He
had, however, thought it his duty, to concur in and recommend
the answer his Colleagues had given to the application. In mak-
ing that declaration, he felt that the idea of personal
would be dismissed from the mind of the Noble Marquis.—
Animosity might Is well be imputed to the Noble Mar-
quit, when he declined acting with Mr. Perceval, as to
him end his Colleague', for the answer they bad returned.
—On the subject of animosities, generally, he bad to lament
that there should have been so unworthy a motive supposed, by
possibility, to exist in the breast of any individual dispused to alt
a public situation. The country, however, need Dot be under
any apprebendon on that subject. There were honourable and
able men inclined to afford their services, and the Crown would
have the Constitutional power of bringing them forward. He
trusted, in future, that the practice of forming Governments
would be left to the proper authority. Before hr took his seat,
be had to observe shortly on the subject of the Catholic Claims,
alluded to so often in the course of the debate. On that ques-
tion he would acknowledge, that advaitages might arise train
the Government being friendly to that measure; but if they were
to have a Government coostructedon the Catholic Qustion, each a
Government would not, in hisvievr of the subject, be advantageous
to the Country. An Hon. Gent, had spoken with horror of a de-
sire to reserve the powet of wan or &twat, with reference to
the discussion of that question; but the Hon. Gentleman opposite
ought to recollect, that a former Administration, at the time of
Lord Sidrnouth, though they pledged themselves:a bring the Ca-
tholic Question forward, they refereed the right of taking such
pinks the discpssien as In the fpinson it might require. He
considered himself free to take any part his conscience might ap..
prove; at the sane time he was ready to go into any inquiry to
give effect to the fair disctiWon of that treasure, and to commu-
nicate with any tenon or persons with respect to information.--
011 the point on which,Earl Mcgra's negociatios bad turned, be
'woad nay that is iree Pawed; became what they coats:Wed fur

never tad bees contended before, naleake, fist tips osterso
the Household must be removed by cessent is disarmon
thorised by the Crown. That pedal bad always bus 6
cussed between a Minister and the Crowe,, with a
feeling for the wishes and inclinatioa of don Cenombect
Moira bad put this construction on the propeflenn; be hi
said it was impossibk for him to make that power iog,,
pensable in the formation of an Admislaratica. Hei(Lnedea.
tiersagh) would say that the subject had been takes win in*
arts, and in a manner that the penpis of this teentey. woo
never permit; but, Independent of that skint, than e nre by
been a more unpleasaet negolation An any tableau Thom&
would lead all the country to candela that they al* on
by their Prince, supeort his rights, and stand by ha, whim.
who could say.that they had no divisions among them, mode
they were influenced only by a with to Genre their rOdrirri
fully and diligently.
Mr. WOK I'LEY rose amidst the ay of Question! sad am
he had not expected any opposition from the Noble Lord (4
tiereagh) to his motion, because that NebkLord moan on
existence as a Minister to him. The late uwetrfteatie6
have been strangled is its Dinh had not his motion takes *IN
but be would acknowledge that it stood better dna thea eel
first formation in the eyes of the country. He dada' tidabne
the Right Hon. Gentirnun had cleared up the medal of a,
Noble Lords. With respect to his motion, be did see noel
go to a division on it, because he tbonglt he thosthliew hike*
of the House. He @haul I not, however, withdraw kWh*
it to be negatived without a division, in order thenit milk
on tie Journals. Haring said lids much with respect sew%
motion, be should support the Anatadment moved by a Ugh
Lord, because•he could not assent to barns an then nil no
med a strong and aflame Govaennsent.
Lord FOLKSTON/I mad* a few observations; hat 641
for the question was so loud tint he could net be head.
Mr. Ht/SKISSON spoke in support Offs regorietioaoseb
ricd on by the Noble Lords Grey and Otinvilie sod his liklet
Honourable Friend.
Mr. bARHAM said a few words, but an acecent oftleeis
for the question was beasselible in the Gallery.
General GASCOYNS expressed his intention not Wei*
Amendment of the Noble Lord (Folkston) to be withimon,
Lord FoLerront's Amendment was then negatived Ming
a division; after which that of Lord Mit vow was fare.iiii
164; Noes, M.—Majority for Ministers, Its.
Mr. WORT& ter Motion being then put and nevekte4
House adjourned at Half past •'three in the ?doming.
[During the (Hellion while the Minority were in one wy.
Mr. Pe Nso mar addressed his Fs iced', and recommeeded en ki
to attend on Thursday next, when the Catholic Question wan
come on, the result of which would thew how far the min
of the present Administration consistent whit their
mom. Mr •ououem also reminded the Miamian thea
sent that an att—lpt of an unprecedented nature emits lk ads,
not only to postpone the discussion on the 'Orders a Coo,
but by su• eluding his notice, to take the business attache*
of his hands.]