Star.
London, England, 1831-03-02 00:00:00

CANAMAN LANDS BILL.

Lord GODERICII brought M a bill to amend an actioassed in
ig2s, for giving legal tenure to lands held in Canada. The noble
viscount stated thc object of the bill, which was to give the hnd-
holders of the colony a good tenure, and empower his Majesty to
carry into effect an act of the Canadian Legislature.—The bill was
read the first time.
The Egrl of SHAFTESBURY presented a petition from Warwick.
Air,. praying for reform in Parliament.
The LORD CII ANCELLOR said he held a petition which had
been intrusted to his care, by a Noble Friend (the Chancellor of the
Duchy of Lancaster), who was so indisposed as to be unable to present
it. His Noble Friend (Lord Holland) had charged him to express the
great interest he took in this petition, which came from the town of
:Manchester, signed by 12,,100 merchants. manufacturers, and others,
praying for general Itefomi in Parliament. There was another petition
to the same effect from Salford, signed by 2,000. They might be eon.
sidered one petition, as both places were contiguous. His noble friend
had blontied him, that the meeting at which the petition was agreed w,
understood it was to be presented on the first day of the meeting of Par-
liament, after the recess. It was consequently taken to London for that
purpose, otherwise the signatures would have been ten times more nu-
merous.—The petition was read, and laid on the table.
Also one from Halifax to the same effect, signed by 1,070 persons.
Also one from Wakefield, and one from Lincolnshire.

REFORMS 111 CHANCERY.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he had proposed to commit
his Bill on the subject of lunacy that Jay pro forma, but the notice
had bee;: given in error, and he was desirous of discharging the order.
He should postpone the Committee till to-morrow, when the Bill
might be entertained pro forma, and prepared for Monday nest.—
The noble and learned Lord accordingly moved that the order of the
day be discharged.

EMOLUMENTS OF THZ COURT OF CHANCERY.
The LORD CHANCI LI.OII being on his legs, made an allusion
to the statement of the Lord Chief Baron (Lord Lyndhurst) respecting
the ateuunt the Chancellor would relinquish by the measure to diminish
fees of the Great Seal. The reduction was 8,3901. and not 7,5001.
The Chancellor's salary was 45,0001. net. Take from that 7,5001. for
bankruptcy, and 8901. fur fees, the reduction would be 8,3901 His
noble and learned friend, in his calculation, had assumed that fees on
commissions in country hanktuptcles were not to be included in the
bill. They were to be included. Their lordships might not know
that 61. were levied on every certificate ; part went to the Chancellor
and part to the officer. Now, what was a certificate of bankrupt ? A
certificate under the hand of the Commissioners, certified by the Lord
Chancellor, proved that the party bankrupt had conformed to all the
laws relating to bankruptcy, viz.—he had been divested of all property;
anti then the first thing the Lord Chancellor did was to take 61. out of
the property. This he considered absurd, and proposed to give up
the fee. It had been supposed that he (Lord B.) had said the Chancellor's
salary ought to be reduced to 7,5031. but he had never said that. With
some exception, the greatest satisfaction bad been expressed with re-
spect to his reforms in bankruptcy. To be sure, one side of the Court
of Chancery complained of his putting too much on the Chancellor's
officers; but his examination before a Committee of the Commons
would prove how far he had stated matter of blame against any pawn
in the Court of Chancery. There was another complaint lie had been
charged with—a wish to screen a number of persons in the plaster's
office ; but it would appear that he was not disposed to screen nor accuse
one side or the other.

Lord WYNFORD was happy to hear his Noble and Learned Friend
seas preparing to reduce the expense of commissions of bankruptcy.
He called thi attention of his Noble Friend to the power which credi-
tors had to give or withhold their signatures; this was a subject which
called for consideration.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said the remark made by his Noble
and Learned Friend, as applied to certificates, was of great importance.
He knew the practice by which they obtained what was called white.
wash Commissions. and it would be necessary to apply. salutary check.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH thought it was impossible, having
heard the statemeut of the Lord Chief Baron, that the total loss in the
fees of the Noble and Learned Lord could be more than 7,6001. It ap-
peared that the Noble and Learned Lord had looked after the fees and
emoluments of the Great Seal more minutely doting three months than
his predecessor had done in three years.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, if ever he should be found at-
tending to the emoluments of the great seal with a view to increase
those fees, he ought not to escape sarcasm. If he ever should coarse
down to that house and oppose bills for the ease of the suitor, because
those bills might take fees out of his office, he would submit to be told
he was anxiously looking into the fees of his office; but when be told
their lordship* that all he was doing was to reduce his fees and patronage
(hear, hear), when he had given up fees to a large amount—he thought
it was too much to be told by any noble lord who was not in the habit
of giving up fees and emoluments derived from the public (hear, hear)
that he had looked after his fees more in three months than his prede-
cessor did in three years. (Hear, hear.)
Lord ELLENBOROUGH did not mean to use sarcasm. If the
noble and learned lord would bring forward any inquiry into the emo-
luments he received for the official services of his father, he should be
to meet that inquiry.
The Earl of RADNOR was astonished to hear any thing like sar-
casm applied to the noble and learned lord, whose disinterestness de.
served the compliments of that house. The patronage end emoluments
given up by the noble and learned lord, for the benefit of the public,
was appreciated out of that house.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH explained.
The Earl of WINCHILSEA thought every noble lord who derived
property for the service of his ancestors ought to submit to a reduction
of the same, to meet the distresses of the country. Could the noble lord
expect his property to remain undiminisheJ, when all ranks were called
upon to make sacrifices ?
Lord ELLENBOROUGH again explained.
The conversation then ended.
_ _

Earl GREY presented petitions from Newcastle under Lyne, and
other places, for Reform.
Lunt MELBOURNE presented similar petitions from Warrington
and Waterforti..—Their lordships then adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
The SPEAKER entered the House shortly after three o'clock, but
in con.equence of there being a ballot for three Election Committees,
the gallery was not opened for the admission of strangers until five
o'clock. As soon as the doors were open the rush was tremendous,
and in a few seconds every seat was occupied. The House was also
completely filled with Members, as well In the body of the House as in
both the side galleries. The greatest confusion for some time pre-
wailed, in consequence of the immense rush that took place into the
gallery as aoon as the doors were opened. Many persons, even though
they got into the gallery, found great difficulty in getting seats, while
others were rather uaceremonietbly tossed from the back to the front
row of the gallery, over the heads of those whom they passed in their
hasty descent. In consequence of all this, business was for some time
suspended, during which " Silence" was very frequently called from
the Chair, and once or twice " Clear the gallery," though no further
attempt was made to put this call into execution. A very great num-
ber of Peers lined the aide galleries; amongst them were the Dukes of
Norfolk and Gordon, Lords Suffield, Albemarle, Darnley, lite.
When silence was obtained, a great number of petitions were pre-
sLnteli from various parts, which ciaidy prayed fur reform and vote
by ballot.

Mt. C. W. WYNN made his appearance on the Treasury Bench
at a quarter before five, and created much merriment throughout
the house, from the circumstance of having the front of his hat
decorated with a ltwk, whicit he wore in commemoration of this
belt% St. David's Day.
THE GOVERNMENT PLAN OP PARLIAMENTARY REFORM.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL appeared on the Treasury Bench at five
minutes before six, and was loudly cheered from various parts of the
House. Shortly afterwards he was called upon by the Speaker, but
the confusion was so great that he could not proceed.
The SPEAKER having heard a Member complain his place had been
taken by another in his absence, said, he could only observe, that bon.
members must be aware that seats which had been occupied by hon.
members were considered as kept for them In their absence when they
had retired to prayers, and until they were displaced by a division of the
House. He wished also to observe, that when he came down at three
o'clock to-day, he never in his life had seen the House so full ; and that
when the House came to the ballot, the papas stuck up on the back of
the seats were infinitely more numerous than he had ever beheld.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL again attempted to proceed, but was unable-
The SPEAKER said he heard the complaint renewed, to which be
tould only repeat the observation he had already made in reply, bat it
n.ight require the consideration of the house whether when boo. membas
1:1,4 retired to prayers, and had been sent for by the t at Arms,i
uith the mace, requiring their presence at the ballet,B2.2ey had not
'ppearal ie the Hours, their seats were equally to be easeitlared as kept.
Alter *hat pause, the Speaker again called upon
Lord JOHN RUSSELL. His Lordship, dime having ban ob-
tained, proceeded, observing. I rise, with= of the
3!lnetr. to bring forward a question of unp interest writs:
likewise a question of unparalleled difficulty, noels rin=drialece
in the least removed by the reflection that on hum I Neve
brought.this important question before the ss kiseadss of the Hesse;

for if on the other occasions I have lurked the attentiou of the two
Houses of Parliament to this consideration, it has been upon my own
responsibility,
reepooxibility, and involving no one in thefallure of the attempt with
myself, though I have often been completely gratified by partial sue.
cess. But, sir, the measure I have now to bring forward, is a meta.
sure, not of mine, but of the Government of the country in whose
name I now appear—(cheers)—the deliberate measures of a whole
Cabinet, unanimous upon this subject, and resolved to place their
measures before this House in redemption of their pledge to '
their SavereigL, to Parliament, and to the country. (Loud cheers.) '
It is therefore with peat anxiety that I venture to explain their lute°. I
tions to the house upon a subject, the interest of which is known by the
crowded audience which is assembled here, but still more by the deep I
anxiety which is felt by millions out of this house, (hear, hear.) mil-
lions, I say, who look with anxiety—who look with hope—who look
with expectation—to the result of this day's deliberations. (Cheers.)
Sir, I am sure it is not necessary that I should say any more to du I
away with a notion, which an honourable and learned member oppo-
site (Sir C. Wetherell) endeavoured to spread, that this question, not
being brought forward by a member of the cabinet, was not the Ines- '
sure of the King's ministers. (Hear, bear.) I am sure the house will
be convinced that what t am going to propose is the measure which the
King's ministers have determined upon. (Cheers.) The measure itself
was formed by the noble lord who is at the present tine at the
head of the Government; he formed it in his own mind—he com-
municated it to his colleagues—ft was communicated to mc, and I
have ever since been consulting, either severally or collectively,
with the members of his Ma.jesty's!. cabinet* upon it. (Cheers.)
1 only wish that the noble bud himself, who is at the head of
his Majesty's Government, could be 'tenni tted by any law or Act
of l'arllament to have explained this measure to the home IL
his own propet person ; but as that is impossible, I lanai that the house I
will favour me With its indulgence while 1 endeavour to perform this '
task, 1 am afraid very inadequately ; but, i am sure, with a sincere I
and earnest desire that our efforts may be attended with success.— I
(Hear.) Much cavil has been raised upoo an expression of the noble
lord whom I have allude' to, that he would endeavour to frame such a 4
measure as must satisfy the public mired, without at the same time en- 4
dangaing the settled institutions of the country. Do you mean, says
one party, by the settled institutions of the country, the close and rotten
boroughs ? I think we shall show, in the course of the explanation I
we are about to make, it is not the close and rotten boroughs whieb
were intended by the settled institutions of the country. (Hear, hear,
hear, and loud cheers.) What ! said the other party, how can you pre.
tend to settle and quiet the public mind without endangering the settled
institutions of the country ? If you do settle the public mind, you must
shake the settled institutions of the country. (Hear.) We are of the re-
verse opinion, because in attemptini, to quiet the public mind it is not ne.
cessary that we should bring into danger the settled institution of the
country. We are of opinion that those institutions, resting as they have
heretofore done in the confidence and love of Englishmar, must conti-
nue to rest on the very same foundution ; and while we discard the no-
tion of complying with extravagant anti violent remarks, we at the same
time wish to place the clear measure before the: house, that every rea-
sonable man, both in and out of the house, and in the country, may be
satisfied with, if it should pass into a law. We wish to place ourselves,
therefore, between the two hostile parties ; neither agreeing whit the
bigoted, on the one hand, that no reform is necessary, nor agreeing with
the fanaticism of others, that only sonic particular kind of lkfunu can
by any means be satisfactory to the people, or wholesome ; but, placing '
ourselves between the two, and stating what 1 hope to be a firm and
steadfast groundtbetween the abuse we wish to amend and die paves.
skins which we hope to avert. It is not necessary certainly that on thisoc-
cuion I should go over the grounds which have so frequently;:been gone
over in stating the arguments in its favour. There can be no doubt that
the *presentation in this house as it now exists, is not a mitre-
sentation fitting the country at this crisis. I need not go into the
changes and alterations which have taken !place in the representation of
later years. It is sufficient for me to say that it is not a real reptesen-
tation.—(Hear, hear.) And I have no hesitation in saying, that it will
be impossible that the house, as it at present exists, can stand. I think, '
if the reformers of ancient days were now in existence, and were to see
that a green mound or a broken wall sent two members to parliament,
they would be greatly astonished. l'hey would be still more astonished
were they to go into the northern parts of this country, and were to see
flourishing towns containing immense manufactories and depositories of
every sort of merchandize—l think that they would be still more asto.
niched were they to know than these places sent no represcntives to par-
liament. But I will not stop here • they would be still more astonished
were they taken to a great and opulent town—l may mention its name,
Liverpool—and were to be told that the manner in which general elec-
tions were there conducted was on a system of popular election.—
(Hear, hear.) If he were taken there, he would see bribery to the
greatest extent,_.( Hear.) De would see men there paid—openly paid
for their votes ; and he would be astonished that a nation whose repre-
sentatives were so chosen, should be at all competent to perform the
functions of legislation. If the question be one of right, or one of
reason' in both instances it would be favourable to reform. What
is the case as it now stands P The people call loudly for re.
form, saying, that whatever good existed in the Constitution of
this house—whatever confidence was placed in it by the people, is
completely gone- (Cris of No and Hear, which lasted for several mi.
nuts.) I say boldly, that whatever may be thought of particular acts,
the confidence of the country, in the structure and constitution of this
house, is completely gone—(Cries of No, no, answered by loud cries of
Hear. hear.) I will say more, I will say that if such towns as Leeds
and Manchester are not to have representatives, when such places as
Hatton and Old &trust have, it is impossible to say that the repro.
saltation is properly carried on—(Cheers.) And that unless such
places are allowed to have reprmentatives, the confidence which once
existed between this house those whom honourable members call
their constituents, is wholly lost. I end this argument b saying,
if the case be one of right, it is in favour of I it be a
question of reason, it is in favour of Reform—if it be a question
of policy and expediency, policy and expediency loudly call
for it—(Cheers.) I shall now proceed to the more difficult part of
my subject, namely, an explanation of the measures which, represent.
big the Ministers of the Crown, I am now about to propose to the house.
Tnow Ministers have felt—and in my opinion rightly—that it would
not be sufficient to grant a passive and insufficient Reform by lopping
off some few straggling branches.—His Majesty's Ministers are sa-
tisfied that it is not sufficient to stop here, or to lop or one branch
of the franchise where direct bribery has been proved ; they are con-
vinced that no half measures will do—(loud cheers}—they arc as con.
vineed, that any trifling or faltering in their course would be calcu-
lated not to give that which it is their wish to give, stability to the
Throne, strength to Parliament, or satisfaction to the country.
, (Immense cheering.) Let us, then, look to the complaints of the
' people. for, without knowing what these complaints are, it is impossi-
ble that we can devise any remedies which would satisfy them, that
their grievances would be abated. Let us, with regard to those griev-
ances, ascertain whether they are real grievances, or alleged ones, and
If we are satisfied that those grievances are real, then our next en.
deavour ought to be that which I and my friends have determined to
cihrsue
re;
mnaemdie2,wteo the
ve necessary
think we discovered ; and if they' shouhledariii
unsuccessful, we shall consider it as a great misfortune to the people,
and to the Parliament. The grievances of which the people
complain in the state of the repasentadon, are, first, nomination
by individuals; secondly, election by close corporations • and thirdly,
the expense of elections. (Loud and continued cheering.) With
regard to nominations, I admit that it may be exercised in one of two
ways, first, where therere is a small number or no inhabitants, and an
extensive right of suffrage; and secondly, where the place is large,
with a dense population, and the right of suffrage very limited. Gat-
ton furnishes an example of the first kind, and Bath of the second.—
In Groton, I believe the right of suffrage is extensive enough—it is
extended to all householders paying scot and lot ; but then the popula-
tion is so small, that there are only five persons to exercise the right.
With Bath the case is different—there the town is large and the popu-
lation numerous ; and I do not mean to say that the populatton has not
a right to send Members to Parliament; and I have never heard any
persons ray, that they thought sue*: town as Bath ought to be de-
prived of that right ; but then the right of same Is b 0 limited that
the election is managed by a few, and the great body of the inhabitants
have no voice at all. To both these evils it is esesndal that we should
apply remedies, but at the sante time each must to dealt with in a
different way. With regard to those boroughs which are utterly de- I
atyed, in which there are no individuals to exercise the franchise, it
would be a mere farce to take away the right which is now exercised I
by any individual in order to give it to the hundred ; the only remedy
that can be applied in cases of this kind is most certainly to deprive
such persons of the right of nomination altogether. I am ptly
aware that in making this proposition we are a bold and de.
cided measure. I am also aware that in all ordinary ocartions the
right* of this kind ought to be respected, and upon that considera-
tion I shall give my vote. (Hear,hear, hear.) No interest—
however trifling, should upon ordinary ccasion be touched, but then
public considerations might wrier it desirable to destroy Lot only
small and trifling interests, but those of some importance, and in sup-
pat of that opinion I shall beg leave to quote the sentiments expressed
by the Right Honourable Baronet opposite (Sir Robert Peel), who
about two years ago proposed two most important measures which
were ultimately adopted by the Legislature. About two yeses ago
the House would recollect that the Right Hosourable Gentleman
proposed a measure known by the name of Catholic Entandpation, and
in connection with that measure another for the disfranchiseassot of
two hundred thousand uneffending men, who bad violated most ?in,
who had broken no law, who had resided theft privikiss,
trnatly, perhaps impatiently, but adll bed they exercised
manner -which they is their comedown believed se he best. I am
not going to quote the print Haseemble Geadmaewls words for
any opinion that the Right Heasnenble flustleems le bound to be ,
consistent-1 Bear' sad a lowsh)—becsase i dill*, ea a of
great Importance, all min web& to act accemflog so the bar
judgment for the benefit of the eesetry. I beg the BOOM b 0
that when two years ago the Right Hon. Gan. meal ea this
the House as a Mbhter of the Crown, and as the repommlatlue el the
, opinions of these who are sow oat of olliee, that be mei r desk ore
, what wqe the etrammumeas which hammed their Amides epee OM
important voodoo. I remember be meals kel the Haw that 'pa

venue occasions they were bound to veep beyond the ordinary rules by
which their decisions were guided upon ordinary occasions, anti he w.
enticed the cases of the Union and the Septennial Act and other occa-
sions when that Howie in order to provide for great measures, and
take increased liberties, bad interfered with the common rules and modes
which regulated their usual proceedings. Upon that occasion the
Right Hon. Gentleman said, " I certainly admit the full force of the
objections which will undoubtedly be raised against the MOtion, which
will interfere with existing rights. No doubt the elective franchise is a
vested right, hut It is a right which differs from others—it differs from
the right of property and other private rights—it is a public trust which
ought to he approached, no doubt, with caution and reluctance, bto
still it is a right which Parliament is competent to deal with." Such
was the sentiment uttered by the Right Honourable Gentleman
on that occasion—sentiments with which the House then agreed—
there never was any measure carried through this House with
more unanimity than that measure.—( Hear, hear, hear.) We
have therefore decided to make this a public remedy. 1 mean the
population return of 1821 ; and we prop toe that every borough which
was under 2.000 inhabitants in 1021 shall lose the privilege of sending
Members to Parliament. This will utterly disfranchise CO boroughs.
We do not stop here. The Hon. Member for Borouglthritige at pre-
wet says,. plus ultra ; we take 47 botoughs under 4,000 inhabitants,
and we deprive them of the right of sending more than one member.
We likewise propose that Weymouth, which now sends four members
to this House. shall send but two. Now, as 1 said, we do not allow
the remaining boroughs to remain in the hands of select corporations,
or a small number of the inhabitants, to the exclusion of a great body
of persons having property and rights io those towns. It is a point of
great difficulty to say to whom we propose to extend this franchise ; in
ancient times, I believe, it will tie found that every person railing in
a borough who possessed an inhabited house in the town,was competent
to vote for Members of Parliament. But, at the same time, this was
to the exclusion of villains and strangers, and therefore they formed a
particular body in each town. They were possessed of property, and
they bore the charges, and of course they were entitled to vote foe the
election of Members of Parliament (hm). I say that the great
object of this house to get lid of these complicated questions, which
arc daily coming before it, will be to give to the real property and real
householders of the different cities and towns the right of voting for
members of Parliament (haw, hear). Forty seven boroughs, of wden,
in 1821, 1 will repeat, the population was under 4,000, it is our in-
tention to deprive of etotliob more than one member each. (Some
laughter, and cries of hear, hear, from all parts of the home.) The
boroughs totally tlisfrancliCted will be those which now send 119 mem-
bers ; 47 will be deprived of sending more titan one member each ;
166 members, with. I again repeat, two from Weymouth, making a
total of 163, which we intend to alter. This is the extent we propose
to go to. (Much cheering and confusion for a time.) We tin nut in-
tend to alter the remaining boroughs, hut we intend to abet the eke-
' live franchise. Some of them, now, are in the hands of select cor-
porations; come of them are in the nomination of individuals. This
we intend to provide against, and to give the franchise to :pasons pos-
wadi* iuterest and property in those boroughs. (Hear.) I am aware
it is difficult to know to what extent we ought to go. In ancient times,
every person residing in a borough and inhabiting a house was com-
petent to vote, excluding only, as I observed before, villains and
strangers. This was the plan we at first proposed, but on
consideration we found it confined the privilege very much in some
boroughs, fur we ascertained that in some boroughs there were not
more titan ten, in others not more than seven, in others not more
than three, and in some only one rated at 201. per annum (hesr,pwar).
This, therefore, would be confining, Instead of, as is our object, ex-
tending.the eletive franchise. We, therefore, propose, that the elect
dve franchise should he extended to all those who pay rent of 101. per
annum. (Hear, hear.) This plan will be carried into effect under cer-
tain conditions, to be hereafter enumerated. (Hear, hrtr.) We do
not intend to deprive the present resident electors of their right to vote,
but experience has taught that the right of voting being extended to
non-residents, has led to such manifest and manifold evils, that we are
determined they shall no longer retain their votes. (Loud cries of hear,
hear.) Some voters will come under one class, and some under ano-
ther • but it is not our intention to deprive any one of the elective
franchise during life. I have said that all those occupying houses of
ten pounds a year will he entitled to a vote ; we propose to extend the
privilege of voting to all copybold property of the value of ten pounds
a year for Members of a County. All leaseholders of twenty-one
years, which have not been renewed withlu two years, are to have
the privilege of voting in towns, and all leaseholders of
twenty years. where the property is worth fifty pounds per annum, are to
have the privilege of voting at county elections. (Hear, hear, hear.)—
It will be seen by this statement, that we have thought it expedient to
disfranchise 168 seats. But it is not our intention to fill them all up
again.—(Cries of " Hear," which lasted for several minutes.) It is our
opinion, that the number of members of this House is incunveniendy
large. Any member, who recollects this House before the union with
Ireland, at which time a hundred members were added, which I will not
say was a great evil—wry member who recollects this, and how business
was conducted before that time, will also recollect how much more
readily it was conducted. It was well known that many members ob.
tamed a seat in that house from motives entirely of ambition and the
honour it conferred. Every one knew that many did not attend at all,
or if they did, it was only a manifest convenience to those who took part
in the public business. (Hear, hear.) It was a well known fact
that many members have been absent for two or three years
together, and other instances are Olt record, where the member, after
his election, had never even attended to take the oaths. (Hear.)—
Some members only came down to vote away the public money. We
therefore propose to make a reduction; and, for the convenience of be.
sine's, to cut off several. (Loud cries of No.) We propose that seven
large towns, now unrepresented, shall send two members each. We
propose that other towns, not represented, shall send one member
pch. Of the towns that are to send two members each, I shall now
give a list. (The noble lord here proceeded to enumerate them.)—
Amongst those to have two members were Manchester and Salford,
Leeds, Birmingham Woolwich, Greenwich and Deptford, Wolver-
hampton, Sheffield, icc. Amongst the towns to have one member each
were Brighton, Chichester, North and South Shields, Blackburn, Bed-
ton, Kidderminster, IVarrington, Wakefield, Halifax, Huddersfield, and
some others. To the metropolis and parts adjacent we propose, said the
noble lord, to give eight additional members, as there are now nine hun-
dred thetutand individuals in these districts unrepresented. To the Tower
Hamlets, containing n population of two hundred and eighty thousand,
we propose to give two members. To the district of Holboru we intend to
give two members. To Finsbury and its district, to give two members.
To Lambeth. and parts beyond the water. we give another two mem-
bers. By these means, we make four divisions of the metropolis and
in suburbs, to each we give two members. I sin sure, that when the
wealth and population of the parish of Mary-le-bone is considered, it
will not be thought that we are going too far, if I say that parish is
as fully entitled to send two members to Parliament as the borough of
Boroughbridge. (Hear, and loud !atwitter.) We therefore propose,
that Mary.le.bone shall send two members. Our next object. is to
enable large counties to send more representatives. (Hear, heat.) I
cannot think that there will be the least objection to this proposition •
for this is a plan of Reform that was po.pused in the days of Eari
Ch ail and had been advocated ever since. Nothing could be
more fair than that -large counties, in which there was au immense
manufacturing population, such as Staffordshire and others—nothing
could be more fair than that such counties should have additional
members. We therefore 'propose in severer countki to add., two
members. The county of York is divided "into three ridings, and
sends four Members. We intend to give two Members to the other
riding, atialtirg in the whole six. The Noble Lord then enume-
rated several other counties, among which were Lancaster, Snrop-
shin. Warwickshire, Cumbetlatul, Nonhanipton, Essex, lauftiolk, Sur-
rey, and Kent. We also propose to give ora additional Member to
the Isle of Nright. We have taker into consideration the evil of the
peewee system of nomination, and the eainopoly enjoyed by a few indi-
viduals. This we provide a remedy Readmit. I now proceed te ano.
thee part of my measure. It Is to prevent the great expense at 'elec-
tions where the poll is protracted. We propose the taking of the
roll in different pans of the county, and that all electon, either
fur counties or towns, shall he registered.—(Hear, hear.) The
machinery of this Om will be very simple, at the same time very ne-
cessary, in order to obtain the names of voters. At a certain period of
the wear the churchwardens end the overseen of the parish will be coal.
tailed to preduce a list of all those oecupyiog a Monte of 101. a-year.
They will be obliged to make a return of this to an officer to he ap.
pointed. who will hear all objections and adjudge. When this is gene
through, on the Ist of December in every year the list will be published,
and every person whose name is on the hat will have a right to vote,
without being asked any other question than *hat is necessary to prove
. his identity.—(llear, hear) This list will be accessible to all.—
(Hear.) I think this regulation will save much expellee and time in
deciding on disputed voter. Another evil which we wrote to remedy
, is to thurten the duration of palls. We therefore intend that booths
shall he erected in different parts of the county, which will materially
lower the expense. We consider tic machinery of our plan so simple,
, that in all towns the poll may be taken in one day. But considering
the disturbances that exists during contested elections, we propose to
, extend it to two days, or, if necessary, to four.-(blear. hear, hear.) In
counties it will necessarily be wmewlist different. We propose there
the churchwarden's list shall he affixed to the doors of every parish
church. and in all eases of dispute with that list, a barrister shall be ap.
pointed by the Judge of Aube to examine into the question, and his
judgment shall be final. Every such list of freeholders, eopyholders, and
, ambers, after it has been signed by the barrister, shall be sufficient evi-
dence of the party applying being entitled to vote. Every one knows the
enormous expense at present incurred of bringing up voters to the poll. In
Yorkshire, for instance, it could not be done for a less expense than
from a hundred to a hundred and fifty thousand pounds. In Devoe-
shire, where the voters were obliged to be conveyed over rugged roads,
the expense was equally enormous. (Hear.) These manifold expenses
it was intended to do sway with. He, therefore, proposed that the poll
shall be taken iadifferent hundreds, and in different places in such bun.
r deeds at convenient distances. If this plan is adopted, we think the
I whole might be taken in are day t but if any dispute arises about votes,
we give power to the officer to adjourn the decision till next day. It
shall be so arranged that no voter shall have more than lb voiles to trot.
el, at the same time, however, the distance shall be so oentrtred that

:here shall not b, st ore than 15 polling placer in a county.--
(War, lisar, hear.) In the. counties to which we propose to give two
members. them shall be two divisions. The arrangement of all this
oil of course be a matter of some difficulty, and we propose a Coat.
native of the Privy 'Council shall be named by his Majesty for the pui.
pine of examining the divisions into which the counties may ino.t
conveniently be amanged. These Privy Counsellors—(hear. hear.—
from Sir Charles Wetherell)—will not be personally responsible fur
the performance of this duty. (Hear, hear, bear.) In some of the
boroughs the number of electors will be exceedingly small, It is our ,
intention, therefore, to insert in our bill. that wherever the number of
persons rated at 101. shall be below three hundred—the adjoining pa-
rishes and chapelries shall add to their number. (Hear, bear. bear.)
That these are vast and extended powers I pretend not to deny, but
his Majesty's Ministers felt that there was an obvious difficulty to he
surmounted. In considering the manner in which that difficulty we,
to be met, his Majesty's Ministers have felt no small difficulty, and
the only guarantee that could be proposed in order to the due perform-
ance of the high duty that would devolve upon them, would be the
known integrity and respectability of the persons to whom Ic should
be confided. They shall report to his Majesty, and that report shall
he made public. If any hon. member think these power, too exten-
sive, I will only ask him—granting the importance and the difficulty of
the task—granting the object a proper one, and that she business mu.t ,
be done—l would ask bins to propose another method of doing it ;
and I will venture to say, if the method is mere conetitutiohal,
more likely to advance the interests of the people. which should
he paramount to all other considcrations--his Majesty's Al inieter,
waiving their own proposal, will not have the slightest difficulty in al-
tering it. There is hut one other thing to which, under this head, I
shall call the attention of the House. It is proposed that in all those
towns to be named to send Mennoets to Parliament, that the property
which a min requires that will enable him to vote for the town, will
not enable him likewise to vote for the county. So that where the
towns have their vote fur proper rcptesentatives chain by thenteeivec
they will not interfere with the county representatives and the two clas-
ses of voters will be kept as distinct as possible. At the same time it
is not intended to interfere with the freeholders, who now have that
right& towns which send Members to Parliament. I believe I have
now concluded all the alterations which it is intended to make with
respect to die representation of England. With regard to tbe right of
the forty-shilling freeholders, no alteration is intended to be tuck
with respect to them, it being considered that that class of voter,
were eminently fitted to be entrusted with the elective franchise, hi,
Majesty's Government considering that they do, by the smallness of
their property, send those Members to Parliament whom it 'meld be
most desirable to have. I will now read a list of those borough,
which have less than 2,000 inhabitants. (The Noble Lard then read
the list, among which were Aldborough, Appleby, Bishops Cas le,
Buroughbridge (great cheeriug and laughter), Buckingham, Castle
Riding, Corfe Castle, Rye, East Looe, Newport, in the isle of Wight,
Plymton, Ry -vete, St. Mawes, Old Sarum, Stockbridge, Wit:.
chelsea, Woodstock (loud cries of bear, hear, from Sir Cherie%
Wetherell), SVotton )Barnett, Wareham, and several other places.
[ln consequence of the rapid manner in which the noble Lord read
over the names, we could not catch them all.) The noble Lori thee
read &list of the places which it was Intended only to send one member
to Parliament. Among them were Amenham Bewdley, Cocker-
mouth,Droitwich,East Orinstead,Huntingdon,LeOntinster, Leamington,
Marlborough, Northallerton, Richmond, and Sudbury. With regard
to the Welch boroughs the only alteration that wax intended to be made
was the adding of certain towns to those boroughs which send n em-
bers to Parliament, and the creating of a new district of boroughs by
dividing Swansea and Cardigan, which boroughs are only to return ore
Member to Parliament. I come now to the representation of Scotland ;
and certainly, if England wants Reform, the same thing must be said.
but in a stronger manner, with reference to that country. If we have
here close boroughs, we have at the same time popular represen.
than, but in Scodand there is nothing like a popular represents-
tenon. No such thing is there known. The generality of the people
of Scotland, comprising the wealth, intelligence, and respectability, are
not represented in this House otherwise than his lordanip would ex-
plain. In the counties there were altogether 2,253 electors, who sp.
pear on the roll, but of whom a number are always absent, leaving
2,304 electors. It was not his intention to enter into details as to the
manner in which Scotch votes are etligild, it was sufficient for him
to say that they were distinct from the land. His lordship held in his
hand a return of the different counties ; in one Omni out of 666 electors
only 100 had any interest in the land ; in Bute, out of 19 electors.
there were but two; in Ross, out of 29 voters, only 18; and in another
place, out of 224 electors, only 98 had any beneficial interest in the
land. This, therefore, could not be taken to be a fair representation of
the land in Scotland. What Government proposed was, that every
person who has what is called the dominion of the land to the amours
of 101. a year, which will be about equal to an English 101. free
holder, shall have a vote at the county election, and also the leaseholder
of 99 years of 50L a year. (Chan.) That 22 counties shall return
one member; that Edinburgh shall send two members, Glasgow
two, and Aberdeen, Paisley, Dundee, and Leith, one member. With
the exception of one it was not intended to alter the district of burghs,
each that returned one member. Peterhead was, however to take the
place of Aberdeen, and Falkirk of Lanark. The qualification would be
similar to that in England, being property in the occupation of a house
of 101. a year, being registered in a similar manner to England.—
With these alterations, fifty members Instead of forty-five will be
returned for Scotland. The elections shall be no longer taken as
before; by the plan'proposed there shall be no longer delegates, but
that in eachiparticular borough, the party having the right to vote,
should vote—and the gross numbers summed up and taken instead
of taking the balance, as it were, of the member of :votes es here-
tofore. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord then proceeded to the ques inn
of Ireland, where, he said, Reform, although it was necessary, would
be much more simple. The election of members for boroughs in !re-
load was begun at the time of the Union; therefore It appeared there
were none of those very decayed boroughs in Ireland, such as were in
England. There was, however, th*vil, which had already been
pointed out as existing in England, namely, that the elective franchise
was not held by a number of persons well qualified to vote fro:n the ex-
tent of their property. (Hear, hear.) It was proposed, therefore, that
the same right to vote should extend to Ireland, as regards the v.lue of
property amounting to 101 a year--that that shall give to every
a right to vote who =sides in a borough sending members to Parlia-
ment. (Hear, hear.) The noble to was convinced that this would
be found to be of very great benefit to Ireland. There were norm of
the boroughs in which the people suffered the greatest inconvenierc-
from their incapacity of voting. 11e would mention only one isotance
an instance which he had brought forward last year—the ce'e of th.•
borough of Wexford, where the people being excluded were sub
ject to dues to the amount of 2,0001. a year for ceming so the coast of
England, which, had they been free of the corporation, thee
would nut have been subjected to. His Lordship said he was
well satisfied, therefore, that this would enable the people of lie.
land to proceed in the cultivation of their trade and industry, which it
was so desirable should take place. 'there woold likewise an advantage
arise to Scotland and Ireland, from this measure, from a number of
Members being cut t3' from this House representing different parts
', of England, whcse places were not to be supplied ; the representa-
tives of Scotland and Ireland would consequently become of
relative importance in comparison to other Members of the
greater House. ln this respect the measure was calculated, it was hoped,
to give great satisfaction to both Ireland and Sendand.— ( Heae.)--
The period of election was to terminate in Ireland within the
same time that it was to terminate in England. Hit Lordship then
proceeded to illustrate the result of the measure in regard to the num.
her of tl.e members altogether. The present number of the members of
the house was 658 ; the number proposed to be disfranchised was 168 ;
deducting the latter number from the former there remained 490 There
was to be added live fur Scotland, three for Ireland, one for Wales,
eight for lender), thirty-four for the large towns, and tiftv-fure
for the English counties, making in all 106. The 10fi being cdt'ed to
the 490, will make the number 696. Taking 896 from 668. end
there would remain 62. The decrease of the number returned to this
house would consequently be 62. (Ilear.) His lordship stated 'hit
it was only a rough goes at the ~urnber of persons who would be
entitled to vote by this bill fir the different boroughs, towns, and
counties ; but he supposed that front the towns at prevent repre-
sented, titers would be about 110,000, for the new towns 8000
for Londen 05,060, for Scotland, 60 000, and for Ireland, perhaps
40.0011. In counties he imagined that 100.000, at least, will to en.
titled to vote, under this Bill, who never had the advantage of
voting before; and upon the whole he calculated (that the number
added to the constituency of the Commons' House of Parliament
would he half a million of persons, and half a million of pt Trims.
it was to be observed, connected with the property of the country--
(loud cheers)—petsons having in themselves a valuable stake in
the country,—interestnl in preserving the property of the country,
and upon whom would depend any future struggle this country
might imve to sustain to sepport parliament, and to suppert the throne
in carry ing that struggle to successful terminination.—The probability
of the possession of this franchise would be an inducement to good
conduct. When a man found that by his being rated to a certain
rent, :mil by paying rates he would be entitled to a vote in the ' ley-
lion of a member of this house, it would induce him to he careful,
andfrugal, and punctual in his dealings. It would be an inductor/et
to him to preserve his character amongst his neighbours, and the place
which he held in society. ills lordship thought, mat when this large
constituency was added, it would provide for the political and motel
improvement of the people. Having gone through these different
statements, he could not but take notice of certain points with h might
be considered defective by those professedly the most jealous of popsy
rights. In the tint place, it might be said, there was no provisos for
the durutims of Parliament. That question bad been much and arxi-
ously moldered by his Majesty's present Ministers, and after the
fullest consideradon passible, it was thought better so leave it entirely
as a cops ass opmetket than to bring it in at the end of a Bill whia
the fronehien and other matters totally separate from that
question, without albs what was the opinion of Ministers upon that
queslon—s reeds* diesel( of the utmost importance. and which de•
served the Omen straimitism. It was thought better to pretest the
large mnumesed RAMA by lONA and leave the other mestere as to tilt
dunks st isslissaset, ekber to be brought in by some other Member, of

I

I

~.~;'

TWO!

r:.
--717 " - ---
/-::,.',/,• • - f'...\,
-.:!.:;.'
f/ if-- • ' 't" • ,
r ‘
~...h...,-,,,_,.....,,:__.:.1
1.7_..........: '7'
T,i..... ,-t , • C-- ' : itt/ '-' V
.:1.-1.. ~ !__ ailir'. Ili
Fol4'' •' - .:. a 'l' r -P

'~

W'R‘

to he brought in at a Ai t ure time by Ministers for future consideration. Hb
lordship for his own past thought it most desirable thatconstituests should
have a proper controul over their Representatives: vet it would he in-
expedient to make the duration of Parliament so short that members
should be in a state of perpetual canvass with the opinions of their
constituents, and therefore unable to advise, deliberate, and decide upon
the great questions which might he brought before them with that free.
dont which should prevail in the Legislature of the great empire, with
that confidence which a generous people of a great country ought to
rant when the questions were brought forward. At present the Go-
vernment had no measure of the kind to propose, satisfied, as they were
that if they could provide for the constituents the means of enabling
diem to elect their own representatives, it would be better not to narrow
that question by another which has its own doubts, difficulties, and
oisataeles to contend with. There was another question, of which no
mention whatever was made in the bill—a question which had obtained
of late ninny advocates and much general support—his lordship alluded
to the question of the ballot. There was, no doubt, much to recom-
mend the adoption of that measure (Loud cries of hear, and no, no.)
—But more insidious arguments than had been used in favour of
the Ballot, had never fallen under his Lordship's eye% and he
hoped the house would pause before it sanctioned the motion of the hon.
member for Bridport, who proposed the ballot to be the mode of elec-
tion in all cases. (Cheers.) That mode of election, whilst it on the one
band, favoured the conscientious voters, it on the other hand, afforded
• cover to much fraud and much crime, it exposed a man to the influence
of bad passions, and while it prevented bad influence over the good, it
prevented good influence over the bad. (Loud cheers). /fie lordship
thought it very doubtful that the 'people of chip country, who had always
been accustomed to vote openly, and to state their opinions in the face
of day, would ever resort to concealment in the exercise of their most
important privilege. (Cheers.) He was bound, moreover, to say, that
it appeared doubtful whether there ought to be in the community any
class of persons wholly irresponsible, and that the ballot did create an irre-
sponsible power no man could doubt. He did not think the ballot would
eonnteract the influence of different classes of society,or that it would coun-
teract aristocratic influence. He did not think it would counteract the in-
fluence of the town, but even if it did he would not like to sec any irrespon-
sible power confided in the hands of any one man, or of any body of
men, knowing that man is a being whose mind is clouded by a variety
of errors, and influenced by every variety of passion and of feeling. He
would next say a few words as to the merits of the plan. in the first
place, great objections might be urged against the measure by those who
think that every thing of this kind is an innovation, and a departure
from the wisdom of our ancestors. These men will say, "As our an-
cestors have thought fit that Old Sarum should send members to pulls.
silent, let Old Sarum send them still. (Hear.) To that he would an-
swer---Our ancestors said, let large towns send members ; and be would
say Old Sarum is not a large town • but Birmingham and Manchester
ere large towns, and therefore let them send members—(Loud cheers);
and in saying so, he believed that he was acting more in the spirit of
our ancestors than if he were to say, exclude Birmingham and Man-
chester, and let Old Sarum have members. Let no man say, that
because Old Sarum, in the time of Edward the Third, sent members,
that we, by permitting the Old Sarum of the present day to send
members, are following the principles of our ancestors. tie knew
it would be said that bankers, merchants, and lawyers, who have
gained admitance to the house by means of these boroughs, will now be
excluded. He doubted that proposition very much, for no measure of
reform could prevent learning, wealth, and capacity, front having their
due influence upon the great body of the constituents, and in popular
boroughs that influence 'would preponderate. As an instance of the
influence of learning and talent upon the constituents of popular bo-
roughs, he would cite the case of his hon. friend the Attorney-Genera—
(hear, hear), and his lordship was sure that lawyers ;of eminence and
merchants of respectability would continue to be elected, and to bring
to the deliberations of the house that learning and that species of know.
ledge which qualifies men to take part in their discussions. He might
again be told that the effect of this measure will be to destroy the in-
fluence and power of the aristocracy, but that he denied ; and he even
asserted, that the influence of the Aristocracy will be much im-
proved. He meant that Aristocracy which mingles with the people.
which knows their wants, which receives their neighbours hospitably,
and which moves along with the people. It was not in human nature
that such an aristocracy must not have great influence in the election of
Members deemed worthy to serve their country. Such an aristocracy
would always have such an influence, as every good man would say
they ought to have ; but if gentlemen mean to say that it will destroy
the influence of an aristocracy which does not live among the people,
which knows nothing of the people, and cares nothing for the people
—which seeks tank without merit, which seeks for places without
talent, and: for pensions without services (bear, hear)—for such
an aristocracy he had no sympathy. The sooner the influence of
that species of aristocracy was carried-away with the corruption
in which that influence has thriven, the better for the country,
and the better for every wholesome stud invigorating influence.—
(Loud cheering.) The question was, whether, without some large
measure of Reform, they could carry on the affairs of the country,
with the countenance and with the support of -the people.
(Hear, hear, hear.) His Lordship then added, I believe we cannot.
(Hear, bear.) It may be a question, whether we can or cannot resist
that particular plan of Reform ; but there is no question whatever but
that you must either reform, or the British Constitution must perish.
(Cheers, and cries of no, no.) This house, in its unreformed state, had
nothing to look to, but the countenance and the support and the sympa-
thy of the nation ; but it is now quite clear, that if you refuse Reform,
that sympathy will be foe the future withheld; and I ask you whe-
ther, when the Ministers of the Crown are convinced, when they serve a
master who has permitted them to lay their propositions before the
house, when they come forward to declare they think Reform is indis-
pensable, when the people out of doors, by multitudes of petitions, and
by millions of voices, are calling for the same thing, whether the House
of Commons will say we alone arc the judges of our security—(hear,
hear,)—we despise the propositions of the Ministers of the Crown, we
despise the warning voice of the people, whom we profess to represent,
and we will keep our power any how against all remonstrances—
against all petitions, and take our chance of the dreadful consequences
that may come. I appeal in my turn to the aristocracy of England.—
My opinion of the gentlemen of England is, that in any gem crisis of
the country they have never been found wanting, that when the country
was engaged in war against the national enemy, they were almost the
foremost to come forward, that when burthens were to be supported they
were ever ready to support those burthens with the rest of their fellow.
subjects, and I ask them now, when a great sacrifice is to be made
which will show their generosity—which will evince their public spirit
—which will identity them for the future with the people around them.
I ask them to come forward in such circumstances, to give the Throne
stability, to the Parliament strength. to the ceunty peace.l (Cond.
nued cheering.) Whatever may be the result of these proposi-
tions ; however they may be met by this house, the King's Ministers
will find that they have done their duty. They have hitherto pro-
ceeded in a straight forward course, neither looking for the sup-
port of a particular class, nor fearing die disapprobation and the frown
of another. (Hear.) Wherever stern duty led them against popular ;
feeling, they have noteven in such circumstances hesitated to persevere.
By a firm, legitimate exercise of law, those disimbances which pre- !
sailed in many parts of England, when they came into office, have now,
I trust been happily terminated by vigorous exertions of aws, which
were passed before they entered into office ; the agitations, so extensive!
and so extreme, have been made, in a great degree, to subside into !
peace. At all events they cannot be accused of leaning to popttler error,
or seeking to ingratiate themselves in niece popular inconsis,ent
mour'• therefore I think they deserve to be believed, when they come
forward with a measure of reform, of the greatest consequence to the
well-being of this country. (Hear, hear.) They ought to-night to
be believed, when they say, in the face of foie house, and also of
the nation at large, that they have no sinister or unworthy motive—
(He..tr)—but that they bring it for ward because they believe it to be ne. I
cessary to the welfare of this country. 'limy are interested in he future
prosperity and welfare, and they r.o think that this measure will tend
to promote the one, and to insure the other. (Loud cheers.) They
think of Reform, that it is the may measure that is calculated to in-
sure permanency to those institutions • itich have so long been the ad-
miration of foreign countries—on account of their popular spirit, but
whichcannot exist much longer—(Cries of " Oh, oh," front the Oppo-
sition B.nelies)—unless by an Infusion of due popular spillt rou snow
that you ate determined not to be the representative of small classes, of
mirth:Oar leterests—but that you will fonu a body, which representing
the people, which springing front the people, which having r. sympathy
with the people, can fairly call upon the people to support any future
burthens, and to struggle with any future difficulties they may hove to
encoueter, eunfident that those who seek it are united beau and hand
with themselves and they look only like themselves, to the glory and
the welfare of England.—His Lordship sat down, apparently very much
fatigued, amidst loud anti continued cheering.
Sir JOHN SEMI IGHT seconded the motion, but in consequence
of the great confusion and noise that prevailed in the gallery, the Hon-
ourable Baronet was very inaudibly heard. He came down totally un-
acquainted with the plus, of Reform which it was the intention of cis
Majesty's Ministers to propose to the House, but he was assured, how.
ever, that Reform was the only safeguard to the institutions of the
country, and it was upon this principle that he seconded the motion
which the Noble Lord who had just sat down, had so clearly, so die.
&Icily, and so eloquently supported.

Sir R. INGLIS opposed the motion. He said that he felt the cliff-
cult), of the situation in which he was placed in having to address the
House when it was under the influence of so much excitement by senti-
ments so very different from what bad ever been before expressed within
its walls. Ile was not adequate to the task himself, but he hoped that
there were Members present who were more able, and who would resist
the measure that had just been presented. The Hon. Bart deprecated
the manner in which the measure had been brought before the House.
They had been told that it was a Government measure, but he repro.
beta the mode that had been adopted. A Member of the House, not
a Minister of the Crown, had come down and stigmatized the whole
House, by asserting that they were not the representatives of the
people. The Noble Lord who brought forward the measure had said
that he was supported in his measure by the demands of the people -
-(Cheers.) He had talked of the numerous demands of the millions
of the people—he bad in one instance used the word request, but he

IMIFF

"Wir.l 1111
'V; st.
4

. •

PSI

. .

"'WM

I seemed to prefer the word demand. He (Sir R. Inglis) did not be-
lieve that the people demanded teform.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord J. RUSSELL rose to explain.
Sir R. INGLIS resumed. It was his firm belief that the people
did not ask fee Reform so strenuously as had been represented by the
noble lord. And even if they did, Parliament were much better judges
than they were of what species of Reform, if any, ought to be granted.
Members were sent to that house to legislate according to the interests
of those who had sent them there. He admitted that there was excite-
ment, but it had arisen from the example given by other countries, as
it arose forty years ago, on the breaking out of the first French revolt'.
don. He had for this the authority of M. Condorcet. " Since the ex.
plosion of liberty in France," says Condorcet, " a fermentation has
shevm itself in England, and has more than once disconcerted Mi.
nisterial operations. The opening of Parliament will infallibly be
the occasion of a reform.' The hon. member proceeded to say,
that ten years ago reform county meetings bad been held to an
extent sufficient to warrant declamators to assert that the refusal
of reform would lead to a revolution. The fe ardente and to
deeedeste of the noble lord was, that the people demanded
reform. This he (Sir B. Inglis) denied ; but the members of that
house were bound to consider, not what was the will of the people from
day to day, but what, in their deliberate judgment, was for the best in.
terest of the kingdom. In the case of the Roman Catholics, he had laid
stress on the prayers of the people for the conservation of the Protestant
rights ; but then the people were not so good a judge of what they had.
He denied that the present measure, that the increase of the electors
would add at all to freedom. Members were am sent here to represent
a particular slot; but, as waded in the election writs, to consult for
the good of the whole kingdom. He denied that at any period popula-
tion had formed the basis of the re resentation. Here the hon. member
made some observations on the origin of elective franchises,whichwere not
t
distinctly heard. He contended t tat the boroughs were too numerous to
have been selected for their population. Many great towns were left unre-
presented, and this was an important fact; for those who, like a noble
ord, lately a member of that house, stated themselves to be not for
innovation, but for restoration, and to be enemies of all rash measures.
He called on that noble and learned lord to defend the measures pro.
posed by the noble Lord (Russell) against being considered rash and
inconsiderate. With respect to what the noble lord had said about Old
Sarum, it was his opinion, and he believed, that the fiat right of send.
ing numbers for that playa, was given in order to enable o ~ruin earl
(tialirbary) to sit in that house. The noble lord bad read a paper, from
which it appeared that a person of the name of Pitt sat in that house in
right of possessing a very large diamond. There had also been two
persons who had eat in that house in the time of Elisabeth for places,
the right of franchise being given them at the instance of one of itcr
favourites. (Hear, hear.) The noble lord's measure was tun restora-
tion. it was revolution. When Halifax was passed over, it panned
8,400 inhabitants ; Wakefield was also a considerable town ; Man.
cheater possessed 4,500. He asked whether L would be an ad-
vantage to any town, however large its population, to return
members ? Had Manchester prospered lees than Liverpool ? Had it
ever wanted advocates for its interest in that house ? The noble lord
said no man was bound to pay taxa, who was no. represented. Yet at
an election the minority always remained without a representative. The
measure would admit into that house almost only one interest, one class,
one talent, the talent of mob oratory.--(Laughter.) Many who were,
or had been, the ornament of that house, had been returned by what was
for the first time in that house termed, under ministerial authority,
rotten boroughs. Except by the means of close boroughs, how slid Lord
Chatham, Mr. Pitt, Mr. Fox, 'Mr. Burke, Mr. Canning, said many
others, get into the house? It was only by such boroughs tha. young
men calculated by birth, education, and rank, could ever hope to be in.
troduced for the first time into the house, unless, indeed, by chance they
happened to be perfectly versed with that mob oratory, which was cal-
culated to please and gratify those individuals to whom this bill proposed
to give the elective franchise. The noble lord had said, too, that those
who were either lawyers, or merchants, or in any other way
whatever connected with commerce would somehow or other (he had
not said how) get into Parliament. The return of such persona ought
to be certain, because it was essential for the House that they should
have persons In it capable of assisting and finding them judgments on
the highly-important matters of law and commerce, which from time to
time came before the House. There was another great interest which
would be passed over—that of the colonies. With the exception of the
Members for Middlesex, Waterford, Clare, Kent, and Staffordshire,
there were very few who at present took an active interest in debates,
who had not been elected by the same means as Mr. Burke and Mr.
Fox. Masked when, and in what respect, was the constitution ever
different from what it was at present ; except in this respect, that the
House was formerly mush more dependent on the Crown, when its
addresses were presented by the Speaker on Ills knees, when Sheriffs
were directed to return those recommended by the Privy Council, when
Members were imprisoned for interfering with the Civil List. After
chiug instances of the Duchess of Norfolk, the Earl of Date, Lord Bur-
leign, and others, causing the return of members, he asked that before
the elective system should he for the first time altered, that the Crown
should have restored to it the use of its negative. He then said, that at
no time had the house been more incorrupt titan it was at prevent. No
sensible reformer could believe any one Member to be, as was the ease
formerly, influenced in the giving of his vote by pecuhiary considera-
tions. The corruption by places and party influence had also greatly
diminished. The blouse Lad been gradually rising independent of the
Crown, of the aristocracy, and of every undue influence. The noble
lord hadi spoken of petitione, formerly the House was never met by pc.
'Worn, The influence of the press over the House was now beyond
comparison greater than formerly. At present, whatever any member
did, was subject to controul, emulated with the quickness of lighten.
ing, and canvassed throughout the whole kingdom. This was the real
reform. It was thus that the House was Ira& alive to the impressions
of the people, acceding not to petitions and demands, but to reason anti
a calm exposition of the wants and wishes of the nation. Formerly no-
thing could be known of the debates but through a gross breach of
privila;e, and whenever any short abstract was given of them, it was
printed as that of the debates of some fictitious political club. A cir-
cumstance of paramount importance was, that never had such an exten.
sive popular representation as now proposed existed, with a free press
'on the one hand, anti a monarchy on the other. The system had been
tried in Spain, in France, and in Sicily. It was now again undergoing
• trial in Fmnce, and what would be the issue the noble lord would
hardly take upon himself to say. The hon. member for Middlesex, on a
forma occasion, on presenting a petition against the interferenceof Pars
in elections, hadsaid that the Peers should be sent back to their owr house.
He (Sir it. Inglis), would not again state, that the Ring and the Peers '
hail always had an influence in elections, but he must be allowed to say,
that, whatever might be the wishes of the hon. member to retain the
peers in their house, be would be pressed forward by the torrent, and
would sweep the Peers Douse clean in the course of ten years. (Hear.)
Let those who pretended to represent the opinions of Mr. Canning,
answer his words on this subject, when he said." that a reformed House
lof Commons would absorb the legislative and executive powers." IVith
i respect to the duration of parliaments, he would observe, that since
! Henry V 111. the average of the duration of parliaments had been only
I two years and eight months. As to the ballot, it implied a scrutiny
before every election. He would conclude by calling on government
not to destroy a constitution which had formed the glory of England
and the envy of foreigners, and which had insured to us 1110 TC internal
peace, move true liberty, more commercial prosperity, and more social
j. happiness, than bad ever fallen to any other country.
Sit C. 8311 T H said he wished to ',take a few observations in vintli.
• cation of the vote he should give, nide.: *veld tri,o vindicate ;he votes
1 of many others, who, like himself, would vote iliffetently on .he quer.
tion now from what they had done on former occasions. He thought it
, must be admitted that the time was now come when some reform was
necessary. He came Ina different conciutdon on the subject now from
who, he had formerly come to, because the public opinion had undergone
i a change, and he thought it the duty of :he representatives of the people
to conform to it.—(Hear, hear.) He thought it was dire that the
nomination of Members to that House by the aristocracy should at
least be contracted, and that the just influence of the Peernge would
beat be preserved by making direly concessions to the people.—
(Hear, hear.) The Member for the Univentity of Oxford said that
by the Noble Lord's plan the colonies would he unrepresented;
hut for what purpose had the colonies local legislatures P—
ile did not think that the people had any thing to fear from the in.
finence of the crown in that house; but, certainly the influence of the
aristocracy required to be curtailed. He thought the noble lord would
have done better if he had made property the foundation of the franchise
rather titan population in the country towns. The noble lord said, the
question should be now settled, and not left for future discussion ; but
.he noble lord bad left that most important part of the subject, the
duration of parliament, for future discussion. He thought the noble
lord should have proposed more effectual measures for the prevention of
bribery and corruption. The oath, he thought, should be administered'
to the member as well as to the elector. lie should not enter farther'
into detail, but thought it his duty to declare his conviction of the ne-
cessity of reform.
Mr. TWISS said, that having heard the noble lord explain the
new Constitution which he proposed to give to the country, he
felt anxious to give some expression to the objections to the noble
lord's plan of a constitution that crowded un his mind. (Hear,
hear, hear.)—though he felt the great difficulty of obtaining the
attention of the House after the excitement the noble lord's extra.
ordinary proposal had produced. (Hear, hear, hear.) As he had
always differed with the noble lord on the subject of reform, the noble
lord would do him the justice to believe that the dissent aid alarm
with which he had heard the noble lord's proposal cop changing the con-
stitution was no new-born dream. (Hear, ear)h He believed duo two
short months ago no radical reformer in England could dream that his
Majesty's ministers would propose to the House of Commons a scheme
for sweeping away all the landmarks of the British Constitution II
the charters of the boroughs of England. (Hear, hear.) The attempt
certainly was not without precedent—that precedent was to be found
in the worst period of our history, in the reign of Charles 11. and
James IL when, under colour of law, and with the assistance of
Judge Jeffries, a similar attempt was made to disfranchise the boa
roughs of England; but it was defeated by the public reprobation
as an attack upon the ancient constitution of the country. It
brined a part of the arbitrary proceedings, which deprived the
Monarch of his throne; and a new Parliament, that might be eon.

"WM

W 7

•

shirred the founders of the Coostitudon, which the Whigs boasted
as their own work, restored the charters of the boroughs as an es-
sential wt of the Ginstitution ; and William, in his celebrated
declaration, made it an important part of the benefits he promised
the people of that all the boroughs should be restated
to their anelent li
berties.li That Parliament which restored the
Constitution of England declared, that they represented all the
estates of the Commons of this realm. Under that C,onstitntion all Par-
liaments had been since returned ; and he trusted that the scandalous
usurpation of James 11. that took their charters from the boroughs for
the purpose of increasing the power of the Crown. would not now be
imitated, by an equally scandalous usurpation, under the pretence of in-
creasirg the power of the people. The noble lord said, all the am.
mouthy of the realm should be represented in that house ; but his plan
only included the inhabitants of great towns, and even of those, only such
as rented houses of 101. a year. His plan was but a change of the fran-
chise firom one kind of property to another. The noble lord asked, what
would be die surprise of a stranger who heard of the greatness of England
freedom of her institutions, the extent of her manufactures and com-
merce, and the happiness of her people, when he found that the repre-
sentation of the people of Parliament represented in one place a mound
of earth, in another a small village, and in another a park ;but if the
stranger knew that all the greatness and all the glories of the country
were pined by that repreientadon, would he not be infinitely more
astonished to find a change was attempted. tinder the present state of
the representation, whenever corruption was found to exist, it was care-
fully inquired into—witnesses were examined, and when proved eon.
vicuon ensued, and justice was executed; but here wasa measure that.
without any examination of witnesses—without any proof of corruption
_.disregarding all delinquency, proposed to pass one sweeping bill
of pains and penalties, by which chartered rights were to be for ever
destroyed. (Hear, hear.) In defense of this proceeding it was said
that the measure was not proposed as a punishment of guilt, but .be.
cause the boroughs to he disfranchised had fallen under the inflect*.
of the Crown and the aristocracy. He would ask, were diere twenty
gentlemen within the walls of parliament who did not feel, and would
am acknowledge to each other, though they did nu. choose to do it
publicly, that the will of the people already but too often over.
powered the calm judgment of their representatives; and that no
government cap stand in opposition to the popular feeling, or scarcely
in opposition to popular clamour. (Bear, hear.) This arose from
the great change that took place in the practice of the *awake.
don at the dna of the revolution. Before that period the Crown in ge.
neral had strength to reign alone, only applying to Parliament occa.
aionally far supplies ; bot since then the Crown could not proceed in
the business of Government without the Parliament, and it was nem-
sary for that purpose that the Crown should have influence in bow
houses of Parliament, or the Government could not have sufficient
strength to cony on their measures against the opposition excited by
the desire of popularity. (Hear.) That was the real danger against
they had to guard—the danger was not from the influence
of the Crown, or of the Peers, on that house, but from the intiti-
ence of the positions of the people, who might if unrestrained pull
down the pillars of the connitution.—( Hear.) As to the balance of the
constitution, that was best preserved and regulated 14 public opinion;
but if by such a measure as that proposed the balance was deranged,
though the great interests of land and trade would be still represented,
there were great and important interests, which he might call the mind-
lance* interests, including the colonial and professional interests,
which now occupy the attention of Parliament, all of which axe now
adequately represented, but which, under the plan of the noble
lord, would and Ito representatives, and in this way the balance
would beiinniediately destroyed. The land and trade would no doubt
be represented, but where would all the other interests of the coup-
,' try and representatives? Their only representation now is through the
medium of close boroughs, which, have given introduction w all the
members who have most distinguished themselves in that house on the
great and important questions of civil and religious liberty. It wai
itecnotary that such boroughs should remain, as attiardbig the only means
of representation to all classes of the community ; and the plan pro-
posed by the noble lord did not open any channel of representation for
numerous classes of the community in place of those which lie closes.
By such a plan the people must lose power, which will be taken from
them to he given to the two great interests of land and trade. He could
be under no apprehension now from the influence of the Crown; the
popular opinion was fully sufficient to prevent it ; the influence the peo-
ple had to ear was from the great interests of land and trade—the plan
of the Noble Lord must disturb that balance of interest whish was most
important to the people should be maintained. The persons having in.
fluence In the remaining boroughs will, ia deference to popular opt.
rdon, be obligal to nominate some member of their own family, instead
of introducing a person whose ability to serve his country constituted
his claim. The Noble Lord would open other channels by which the in-
terats of the people should find representatives in that House ; but had
out done so. The Noble Lovers plan was first to destroy the ancient char-
ters, and secondly through the breach to pour in a popular flood, which
could not be foreseen; this was not done to quality, the large influence
possessed by the land and trade of the country,still less to give strength to
the Crown, which, in the present state df Europe, it might require, nor
even to give representatives to great towns; but for the purpose of mill-
ing into the service of the country the wisdom of the inhabitants of the
county towns renting houses of 101. (Hear, hear.) For this purpose so
much of the representation of all the miscellaneous interests of the noun.
try was to be shut out, that the =dermatitis which persons of rank and
education had introduced into boroughs, might be corrected by the wis-
dom of those householders—those people of narrow habits—of scanty
information--shopkeepers and small attorneys. (Murmurs.) They might
be respectable in their callings, but he could quote s& good &judge of hu-
man nature as any he was addressing, and with whom he entirely agreed,
in support of his opinion that they did not possess the wisdom that could
improve the representation in that House. The authority be meant was
the author of the book of " Ecclesisaticus."—(A loud laugh.)—
He was sorry to hear any book of the sacred volume excite a laugh In
that House. fie thought it was entitled togreat respect, and the author,
speaking on this very point, said of such persoos—" AU these tens. to
elicit hands. and every one Is wise in his work; without them cannel a
city be inhabited; but they shall not be sout,ht for in public council."
Amongst that class of persons were to be. iouud those shallow politi-
cians with whom reduction of taxation was every thing, and not, and
tithes, and public credit nothing.—(No, no.) Amongst that class
was to be sought those intended by the Noble Lacers Bill to correct
the abuses of that House, and this was the way in which Minister'
redeemed their pledges.—(Hear, hear.) No doubt .his extension
of the franchise would produce much intriguing, and a great en-
deavour to turn the new acquired power to account ; but for any good
purpose it would do worse than nothing. The noble lord said his plan
would reduce the expense of elections. Never sea there a greater fal-
lacy ; as the electors would be increased the expense would be increased.
(No, no.) He would say yea, yes, there might not be the same expense
in bringing electors to the poll, but the expense of canvassing would be
increased--the expense of a scrutiny would be increased, and bribery
would still continue. It had been often argued in that House that
while high duties were continued it was impossible to prevent con-
tracted trade. The argument was the same, if these men of narrow
minds had something to give which men of wealth were willing
to;buy, the purchase and sale would take place, and no legislation
could prevent it. These were some of the defects of the noble lord's
plan, and he wished to know whether it would satisfy the people. Why
yes, for a time, they say it will satisfy them, and then they mean to
come for the rest.—( Hear.) That is what the reformers mean, though
it may not be what the Ministers mean. With %that face could they
consent to sacilfies one-half of the Coustitution now, that they may
sacrifice the other hall at a future time. (Hear, hear.) He did not
accuse Government of having such au intention, but he did blame
them for having given ti: authority of their names to unreasonable ex-
peeditions—to an impracticable plan of Reform, which, instead of pro.
posing, they should, flan the beginning, have declared to be impossi-
ble. (Hear, hese.) When those who supported Ministers saw the
plan they propesrl, must they not feel on this question as they
felt on the Civil List ; must they not say, " If this be all you Casa do
to disturb the public feeling, and disappoint the public expects ions,
would it not be better to give up die government than to carry it on by
such measures." (Hear, hear.) It was said the people cried for re-
form ; but lie thought the wisdom of the country would have to contd.
der whether that cry was the result of reason or of temporary excite-
ment. Why, the noble lord himself ackoowledged that but a then
time ago the people were indifferent on the subject of reform.--
Since then the House of Commons had reduced taxation, and re-
pealed the only restraints oo religious liberty. These were the acts
by which a House of Commons not thought unfit foe the discharge
of its duties three or four yeats ago, was to become so
odious as not to be endured. (Hear, hear.) What was the cause
the House of Commons had become so unpopular ? He world not sup.
pose that the advance of reforming opinions could arise from fear ; but
probably from an opinion that there was something hi the example of
France for us to imitate. But was the contagious excitement likely to
last in this country ? He should say not, because it was not founded
in reason. No man would say that the circumstances under which. the
people of France were called to assert their rights could arise in this
country. (Hear.) The movement in France, hosever justifiable, had
been productive of many evils, both to commerce and domestic quiet; and
were the people of England, when they saw neighbouring nations hazard-
ing every thing to obtain a constitution like theirs, were they to be called
to hazard every thing to get rid of their constitution ? (Hear.) The die-
trees hi this country could not be the cause, for the people of Eng-
land saw distress increase in France and Belgium, and the demand
for their own manufactures was increased. And if distress produced re-
volution, it should never be forgotten, that revolution produced dis-
tress.—(()rat cheering.) Another cause, which had move effect than
all the rest, was the evil of agitation, which Government must use
its power to repress, if any liberty qr property was to be preserved.
(Hear.) It was time that the law which gives the liberty of public
meeting and of the press should not be perverted against the people, fa',
whose security it was intended.—(Hear, hear.) The objects which
the country had been led at present to desire were such as no change
in the constitution could effect. Ministers bad acknowledged that they
could not seduce taxation. The noble teed, is a in ISIS. bad
said that a fondness for war was not the el an tageechieal
Government, but of a popular Government. which laid oo heavier math*
than any other Government could. In support of this opinion he had
now the authority and the example of the French people, who pleated

OOP!

'r. F.

r'Vq

.. .. --~

the tricoloured flag in the summer of 1830, and were waving it for nar
in the spring of 1831. What prevented the government of this country
carrying their pledge of mien .4,roent into effect but the apprehension of
war from the popular Goverment of France and elgiunm P The bon
and learned gent. concluded by observing that the 1 party of poi.
deal reformers in the country would hardly wish a revolution if thy)
would remain satisfied with the measures produced by the noble lord,
which he (Mr. Toles) considered as a mere evasion of the real qu(sot.r.
of Reform.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that the hoe
and learned gentleman (Mr. H. Twiu) bad come forward with ecry
strong language in support of his arguinents—.he had said that the et)
for reform had been produced by agitation—he (the Chancellor of the
Exchequer)did not think that there was at the present time, in FARlatte
at least, any great symptoms of agitation (hear), he deprecated ant!
dreaded the great and excessive evils of revolution as much as the
honourable and learned member did—and it was the duty of the
and of that House to take such steps as would plum
any revolution in the country—there steps had been taken in the
measure before the House. The hon. and learned gentleman had
argued with great ability certainly respecting nomination boroughs;
but no person can deny that great disadvantages arose from these be.
roughs, inasmuch as they enabled individuals possessing large property
to return what member they chose, thereby disturbing the Ministers of
the day, and interfering with the good government of the country—the
proposition brought before the Douse that night was applied with I
view to diminish the evils resulting from nomination boroughs, and give
to the middling classes that right of franchise, which he contended they
ought to possess. The hon. and learned gentleman says, if the fro.
chise be so extended, there would be a danger of a revolution in the
country; does the bon. Gentleman mean to say that his Majesty's me.
sent Government is not popular amongst the middling classes P He
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied that the present Go.
'aliment was popular with the large majority of the people of Eng.
land. He did not say that the House of .Commons, as at present
constituted, was so popular, hence it was that he was opposed to the
present mode of representation—(hear, hear)—feeling confident as he
uid, that the middling daises desired neither change in the present form
of government, nor revolution, he thought that the present measure
could he proposed with safety, because is placed in the hands of that
class the real power of choosing their own representatives, without
which no form of government could be ever safe. (Hear.) The hon.
and learned gentleman had ridiculed the middling classes of England,
as being unworthy of having the franchise extended to them. He (the
Chancellor of the Exchequer) was satisfied that the middling classes
would return their members to parliament wilt honesty and inte-
grity. The honourable member for Oxford had said that his Ma-
jesty's Minister's had proposed the extent of population u the test
for bestowing die elective franchise ; such was not die case, for pro-
perty was considered as well as the amount of population. The hon.
and learned gentleman who spoke last alluded to the charter of
James the Second. The very ohject the present Government had in
view was to establish all that had been contemplated by that charter.—
He was one of those theorists who were of opinion that the House of
Commons ought to be the representation of the people • but the Hon.
Gent. has looked beck to the period of Charles the Second, when the
people of England possessed a House of Commons of this kind, which,
he states, destroyed the Aristocracy of the country : he ought to recollect,
however, and to have stated,. that the Government of that period was
swayed by military dictation. (Hear.) It had also been said that the pre.
sent measure would not give satisfaction ; no doubt many there were
among reformers, who might think that it did not go far enough; but
those individuals would be found, after all, in the minority. The lion.
gentleman will find himself mistaken, if he thinks that the middling
thee% are not for reform ; and he (the Chancellor of the Exchequer)
was equally certain that the present measure would satisfy theta; the
great object of his whole political life was to place the franchisee in the
hands of these classes ; he had freely sacrificed some part of his feelings
in support of the measure, which he was not disposed at present to go
beyond.
Mr. 11. TWISS hoped he would be allowed one word in explanation.
He had no. ridiculed the middling classes of England ; neither had
he disparaged them ; although be certainly did think it was objec.
tionable to place so much power in their hands, as he was convinced
amongst the middling ranks the most dangerous class of politicians
was to be found.

Load I. GOWER was of opinion that it wasa palpable error in poll.
tics to state that the distresses of the country, numerous and of frequent
recurrence as they might be, were to be attributed to the representation
of the House of Commons. —(•'Hear," from the Oppoeition.) The noble
lord then proceeded to read extracts from a aecent number of tae Edin.
burgh Review, to show that the people of Scotland were rich, happy,
and virtuous, which proved that the outcry against the representation of
that country was a farce, or else the statements of the writer were false.
He objected to the measure of the noble lord as being speculative in its
nature. Pitt, Wyndham, and Canning, were now in their glares, but
he should witness how the followers of those great men at present in the
house acted as regarded this Important measure. Very few, indeed,
could take up their mantles; they could see the beauty of the constitu-
tion, and thought it worth defending. They used their giant energies
In support of it, and placed themselves between the people and that
plague of revolution called reform. They thought in the constitution
of that house there was a sufficient guarantee for the safety of all our
valuable establishments. It might, perhaps, be said, that those great
men were mistaken, but convinced he was that they would never have
consisted that the bonds of justice and fair dealing should be' rear
asunder. They felt that the portals might be low by which somerenteted
parliament, but that when entered, integrity should carry them on
without stumbling. Wisdom and virtue might enter those portals, and
not lose sight of the proper mime to be adopted. In the observations of
the noble lord opposite (Lord J. Russell) he appeared to dread the in.
fluence that Members might, as the House was then constituted, have
over Ministers. No doubt the noble lord and his Majesty's government
had discovered, during the shots time they had held office, that it was
far more difficult to legislate from the side of the House they now occu.
pied, than that which they had lately left. (Hear, heat.) He was not
surprised at the difficulties they had to encounter. It was said by this
measure independent men would be introduced into Parliament. He
was no prophet; but, in his opinion, it would be attended with great
risk and doubts. (Loud cries of hear, hear.) The noble lord had alluded
to the present attorney.general having been elected for an open borough
by popular opinion. He was not surprised that such should be the case,
that learned gentleman stood high in his profession, and in reputation
as an honest man, and was first brought into notice by being
engaged In the most memorable trial this country ever knew. (Hear.)
But he (Lord G.) thought it was too much that that Hon. Gentleman
and others who thought with him, should charge those who were of a
different opinion who wishing to promote alarm and dissatisfaction in
the country.—(Hear.) He did not wish to raise a false alarm, but he
had certainly seen danger when the tricoloured flag was carried in
through the streets of London. When that flag was raised
rriPttoc: he hailed it with delight--he hoped it would long con.
tissue to flourish and Moran the m.onstitutional liberty of that country ;
but he was old enough to remember when 800,000 men rose up in
arms when that flag was displayed, to drive it from she shores of
England.—( Hear, hear.) He hoped this subject would meet with a
calm aid dispassionate discussion on aU sides. There were many
grounds en which he could raise strong objections, but he would
not at that time detain the House. He had not changed his opinion on
the principles of Reform, although subjects Oa private nature made it
extremely painful for him to adopt the course he felt it his duty to put.
sue. (Hear, hear.) He was not at all to be diverted by the abuse he
might receive, either by the press or from other channels—for his
opposition to what were called liberal measures—all such attacks he
utterly despised. (Hear, hear.) If he pursued a course likely to
promote his individual comfort, and spare himself much pain and
anxiety, it would have been one diametrically opposite to the one
be did. (Hear, hear.) The Noble Lord had said that the present
measure emanated from the Ministers of the Crown, and still such
a measure ought to be carried by the Government. (Hear.) He
could not see any force in the latter remark, but as it emanated
from ministers, he (Lord Gower) was willing to let it go through a
magi, that would bring it before the house and the country more in dr
tail. (Hear.) He mast, however, say, that he did not pay any more
respect to a measure because it came from Government. Neither WAS
his confidence in the present administration such as to destroy his con-
fidence in high authorities who uniformly opposed reform. The im-
pression on his mind was that the principle would prove injurious. At
the same time. from the candour, ability, and zeal, with which the
noble lord had brought forward the measure, he would not oppose it in
its first stage, although he should feel called upon to do so afterwards.
The noble lord expressed his thanks for the attention with which the
house had listened to him.

Sir R. PEEL rose, and other members gave way. The right hot.
but_ said, the object of his rising was to ask the noble lord opposite s
question. The burgesses and others now possessed the right of voung
in boroughs, and which right during their lifetime was not to be taker
away. He wished, therefore, to ask if such right would descend to their
heirs, or whether they would be disfranchised ?
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, the elective franchise as now ere
eked would certainly die with the present possessors.
Mr. HUME moved that the debate be adjourned until five o'clock
this day.—Agreed to.

BILEACH 07 PRIVILEGE.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented a petition from Alexander Jacobs
(who wa* yesterday committed to Newgate). The petitioner stated
that he uttered the offensive words in a moment of excitation. Liu'
expressed the greatest regret and contrition. He therefore hoped that
he might be ordered to attend at the bar of the House and expree
such regret.
The petition was }nought up and ordered to be printed.
Mr. O'CONNELL then gave notice that at the sitting :
Howe tomorrow (this day) he should move that the rent:o-L: 'x
brought to the bar.

MUTINY SILL.
eirJ. GRAHAM brought in the Marine Mutiny Bill, with!. WAS
read a first time

A few petitions were presernad, alai the House Adjourned at Trenty
Minutes Ware Cu o'Cloeir.

INDON 2

oy Joe*

(Anil, at the t'i~►

Orrics, Na 1, Pkketi-place, Temp's Bar.