Star.
London, England, 1802-12-09 00:00:00

THURSDAT, DEC.thiljEß 9, 1 802

it is,and however well direded, was fufficient to the
protedion of our extenfive coatis and wide fpread
doMinioni. France, poffeffed of fuch advantages
or her geographical fituation; miftrefs of Holland
and the Netherlands; commanding the navigation
Of the Maefe, the Scheldt, the Rhine, polkaed of
all the important fortreffes that line their. banks,'
and poffeffed of molt powerful and (till encreafing
armies, was an object altogether which this cone
try could not view without ferious alarm, and
againft which the was imperioufly called to pro-
vide for her defence. He could not, therefore, re-
fled without aftonifliment, upon the affertion of a
Right Hon. Gentleman upon a former night, whole
talents in other refpeds he fo highly admired, (Mr.
Fox), that he could fee no caufe for alarm, and
that the belt fecurity againft attack, and the thong-
eft furety for the perpetuation of Peace, on the
part of this country, was (mall armaments. In
fuch a fentiment he believed no man, on either
fide the Houk, would coincide. Before he pro-
ceeded to move the different branches of the pub-
lic force, for the land fervice, it might not be
amifs to 'late to the Honfe, what was the prefent
military force of France. There he Rated under
their feveral regimental details, as amounting
in Cavalry to 46,350; Infantry 341,050 ; Artil-
lery 26,000 ; Invalids 14,560 ; a force altoge-
ther amounting to 427,9t0 men.—Such, then,
being the aaual military force of France, un-
der her peace eftablithment, no man, he believ-
ed, could doubt the neceffity of fuch an en-
lagentent of the public force in this country, as
would amply fecure us againft eventual danger.
Here be could not withhold his ,approbation from
the fentiments expreffed by a Noble Friend of his,
upon a former night, that with every with to pre-
ferve peace, it was our chitty to be prepared for
the alternative. For, in fad, we had no other
ground upon which to ref 'for the certainty of
peace, and the fecurity of defence ; but in main-
taining fuch a force as would render it obvioutly
inexpedient, for any Foreign Power to violate the
relations of peace with, or venture an attack upon
us. Thus provided, and thus only, could we be
warranted to rely on the permanence of peace; for
without this there was no fecurity in all our accu-
mulation of wealth and commerce, which would
only teem to invite attack and lead to difafter.—
Unwilling as he was to trefpafs on the patience of
the Houle, he could not pafs unnoticed a remark
which came from a very refpedable quarter, on a
former night, that large !landing armies, in times
of peace, were unconftitutional, becaufe hey were
liable to be perverted by the Crown to bad pur-
poles. He was ready to admit, that the remark
would be ju Illy applicable to (landing armies, kept
up without the content of Parliament; but fare
to boding armies, kept up with the content of
Parliament, founded upon public neceffity, and
the prefervation of public fecurity, the remark
would by no means apply. He had read in an
ancient and celebrated Author, that good laws
may be defended by
.good armies ; and he
was convinced, that in the prefent pofture
of affairs, ours would be belt fecured by main-
taining an adequate force by fca and land.—
With refpea to another argument, from the fame
refpedable quarter; that the belt way of prepar-
ing for danger was the hufbanding our refources,
and thus keeping up bur credit : of this policy he
fully admitted the wifdom ; but the Hon. Member
who brought forward the objection should confider,
that in all calks it mull be governed by the necef-
fity of exifting circumftances. If i 00,000 men be
thought likely ro form a fufficient force for the
defence, it might be imprudent very confiderably.
' to exceed that number ; but in the prefent afpedi
of affairs, it was furely the wifeft policy to be pre-
pared
with fuch refources as we did no: know how
fuddenly our fecurity might require. It had been
(aid, that money was the finew of war, but that
Grew mull have body and limbs to give it opera•
tion he always confidered it as among the finews
of war, but of itfelf it could do nothing. Its
bell e for the public fecurity in the prefent
crifis, would be in the eftablithment of an ef-
' ficient Navy and Army, which would enable us
to ad at a moment's warning with decifive effed:
—Not only our fecurity at home required this.
but the fafety of our Colonial acquifitions abroad:,
—The acceffion of Ceylon and Trinidada of
thetnfelves, required a confiderable increafe of
force for their defence. The Bon. Member then
entered, at length, into a minute detail of ar-
rangement of the Land Forces for the enfuing
year, from which he (hewed, that (rich difpofitions
had been made, as to render thofe forces, in a very
confiderable degree, more efficient than they had
been in preceding years, and at a much lets com-
parative expence. In the Cavalry of the line, for
inftance, which codified of 3 regiments of Horfe
Guards and 27 regiments of Dragoons, ten men
in every troop were difmounted, but difciplined in
every refped for cavalry fervice, by which means, ,
not only a ccmfiderable Paving would be effected in
horfes and forage ; but a fulficient number of dif-,
mounted men would be always ready to make
good the deficiencies from ficknefs, or on guard,
and render each troop or regiment efficient for
fervice. An arrangement had alfo been made in
the Infantry Regiments, by adding a Lieutenant
and 23 Men to each company, whereby an addi-
tion of 25,0ci0 effeaive men would be attained.'
with an enormous Paving of expence In the pay of
Officers, and other contingencies. The total of this
force would amount to 118,909 men t of which
number the Cavalry amounted to 17,a10 ; the
Foot Guards to 6060. The number defined for
fervice, in Great Britain and Ireland, was &moo ;
and thofe for India IllocM, officers exclufive. There
were, betide, (even new battalions to be formed of
the Ont•penfioners of Chelfea and Itilmainham.
hot/Atlas, in play of the Invalid Corps, which had

' been .difbanded ; whk)i would be rendered con•
fiderably more efficient than the Corps of Invalids
—a name, by the way, from which it might be
implied they were totally unfit for fervice; there
men were to be embodied under a corps of able
officers, and by doing the duties of garrifons,
would render the troops of the line more difpofable
for emergencies, and the difference of expence
would not exceed 50001. Having Rated this much,
he felt it needier* to trefpafs farther in detail, as
every Gentleman was in poffeffion of the abftrite of
the Eftimates, he would barely remark, that the
amount of the eimate for the krvice of the year
was but 5,500m001. being lefs thali theta ft 270,0001.
Arrangements equally eligible, had been made
with regard to the Militia ; and it would fie found
that in a comparrifon with the precedink year,
under the head of Barracks, a laying haa been
effeeted of not lets than 300,0001. The lion.Ment-
ber next proceeded, to notice the charges made
againft his Maje fly's Mini fters upon a former night',
for having difbanded their armies on the very see
of the occafion, when they find themfelves obliged
to call upon Parliament for means to recruit the
public force. In anfwer to'which, he alledged,
that the only troops that had been difbanded were
the Fencible Corps, which were only raifed upon
;the Ripulation of limited fervice during the war.
The Out-I'enfioners, who might again be embo-
died on Ilion notice, whenever their fervices were
thought necelrary, and Foreign Corps, to the
amount of 8,500 men ; who certainly were not the
defcription of troops moa to be relied on for na-
tional defence, •then Britith troops could be had.
Of all other deferiptions of troops, the total num-
ber difbanded "Os but 7Soo men, and thofe either
men who had been worn out in the fervice, or
men who had enlifted on the Ripulation of being
difcharged upon the renoration of peace, and with
whom, for the honour and advantage of the fer-
vice, it was neceffary to keep 'faith on this point.
Having finifhed this part of his flatement, he could
not difmifs the rubjed without congratulating the .
country, that the Britilh Army, at no period of
our hiflory, was ro numerous, or compofed of
more able•bodied, or better difciplined foidiers, in
higher fpirits and vigonr ; or commanded by
abler Officers; and while the:country recolleded,
that this force was under the chredion of an illunri-
ous Prince,fkilled in his profeffion, and attached by
hereditary and patriotic des to the defence of his na-
tive country, her King and Conflitution, there was
httlein the Attitude of enemy,howevetformida-
We for the firkins nation, to dread. In addition to
the troops of the line, we poffeffea a Militia of
somoo men, which inightboimmediately increafed
by ao,ooo more. To this was to be added that van-
' sOlt-towlio,--ehtbfilitil of Ireland. kits blnjelly,l
too, had been enabled to accept the fervices of the
Yeomanry of the country, 8,000 of whom were
already embodied, principally compofed of Caval-
ry. In Ireland the number of Yeomanry embodied
was (till greater ; the Cavalry alone confining of
io,ooo. So that the whole armed and difciplined
force of the United Kingdom ready to take the
field, upon any emergency, for the public defence,
was upwards of soomoo men, exclufive of the
Army in India : a force by no means likely to
ftrengthen the inducement of attack from any
enemy who might. form defigns of invafion upon
thefe countries. This Ratement, then, he hoped,
' would be received as a full anfwer to thole charges
of credulity and incaution,which had been brought
againft his Majefty's Miniflers, who had thus been
proved feelingly vigilant to the public fafety, and
zealous for its fecunty. He concluded by moving
the MI Refolution of the Supply.
Mr. Mass was not Armed to fupport in pub-
lk the opinion he had before declared in private :
but feeling, as he did, he felt it his duty to declare,
he did not "think the fecurity of the country de-
pended altogether upon the maintenance of great
(landing armies. In fupporting this opinion, when
he refieded on the preliminary debates that had-
taken place on this fubjedt, he did not fuppofe he
now rpoke to a very willing audience ; but it was
neceffary for him to explain the motives why he
differed from fo many opinions he fo highly re-
fpated. It was not becaufe he thought the con-
dudt of France lets fufpicious than others did ; his
condud, he believed, had in no inflance fubjeded
him to the fufpicion of favouring the views of that'
Government, but becaufe he feared that in the
endeavours to.guard againft thofe views, we were
lavithly throwing away our means of defence. If
there were any circumflances in the fituation of the
country that ought not to be revealed, yet which
called upon the Houfe to vote to his Mar ily's Mi.
nifters a force fo much greater than the ufual
peace ellabliftiment of the country, he did not with
to oppofe It; but when he heard Gentlemen argue
the relative mate of other countries, be thought it
bad policy to lain now thofe refources which we
might want In time of emergency, and which et.
h aufted now, would render us inadequate in cafe the
danger fliould be really found to exift. It had been
Paid by a Noble Lord, that no economy was fo bad
as a low peace eftablifhment. Wish refpee to for-
mer peace eftabilibments, he could only fay, they
were fuch as maintained this country in a !tate of
the higheft refpeeabiily with foreign nations, and
maintained the moft petted fecurity at home ; and
to the Maori and experience of many years he
would appeal for the truth of his affertion. If there
was to be no fecurity for the country without equa-
lizing our military force to that of France, the cafe
was obvioutly impradlicable in the nature of things;
nor could any caufe of difmay be fo firong as the
admiffion of fuch a maxim. Was there nothing
in the fingularity of our &nation ? Was our navy
an inefficient fource of defence ? He did not,
he qwned,, rely on it entirely ; but furely we were
I not iii the fituatiort of Auftria, with a frontier to

ibidthat was telly approached ,by Ink ace-

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PRICE SOrePENell.

ing, then, no fuch neceffity, lie looked' To the hitP
handing up our refources with rational eecononitl,
He did not mean to fay,..that facing of money '*4s
i in all cafes, to be preferred ; nor that money might
not bea firong temptation to attack, from a power-
ful enemy, for the fake of plunder. It was called
the finew of war; but he was ready to admit, that
of itfelf it could do nothing ; for the nation which
could command armies, and iron, mull always
triumph over that which relied merely on gold..
I Another argument he had heard was, that fo long
. as we had alliances upon the Continent, they re-
• &tied babk upon this country an additional de-
gree of military Rrength ; and, therefore, that it
was our bell-policy to cultivate thofe
He lamented the prefent fituation to which our
allies were reduced ; but he thought it the duty
of thofe who governed the country, to be eautions
in forming fuch alliances on the Continent as thole,
which, during the IA century, had fo frequently
I embroiled us in wars—not for Britifh intereds, but
kir-their own., With refpea to the defence of this
countiT, he thpught that at no time fence' the civil
wars, were there fo many of its inhabitants train.
ed to arms as at the prefent moment. Here then
was a fource, to render which efficient, the bell ex•
ertions Should be made. The &ft notice of war
from France might be the appearance of her ar;
mies on our chaffs : and if France really meditat.
ed the defirultioh bf this country, what would an
army of 66,000 men avail ? bur if the French faw
the fpirit of the country at large oppofed to them,
they would not be inclined to encounter with the
efforts of thofe men, in their own lead, whofe
prowefs they had' fo frequently experienced, in de►
feats at lea ;—whole valour had fo recently tri•
umphed over them in Egypt. This wits the
ground on which he placed the ftrongeft reliance
for fecurity. Tolhe charge againa Minifters, for
improvidently &banding the Army, he thought
the fpeech of the Right Hon. Gentleman a..
full refutation ; but he conceived the economical
fyfiem mentioned by him, inereafing the prottifional
Force of• the Cavalry and Militia, ought to be car-
ried to much greater extent; and he visited thole
hints, though not in the prefent year, would in the
next, form the beginning of a permanent Peace -
Eltablilhment.

Sir W. W. WYNNE would not oppofe the eta.
blifhment, though he thought it a moft extraor•
dinary Peace Eltablithment indeed ; brought for.
ward as it was, without any explanatory commu-
nication, as to the grounds of its neceffity,frorn his.
Malefty's Miniftcrs.
The SECRETARY at WAR explained.
Sir EYRIE Coors declared his moft hearty con-_
currence in the propofitions of the Secretary at'
War, nod faid, the fore, Rated appeared to him •
neceffary to put the country in a fituation of being
able to repel danger, fhould it really occur. It
would enable us, not only to defend our own coafts
bat to have alfo a difpofeable force ready to aft
on any. emergency. Of the regimental arrange.
ments Rated by the Right Hon.. Gentleman, he
expreffed the higheft approbation,
.as admirably
calculated to render the public force efficient.—
Every man, he raid, mull allow the times were
big with events ; and it behoved the Houfe and
the country to look to our fituation with the molt
ferious attention. For his own fiat, he was con-
vinced his Majefty's Minifters would at with the
temper and firmnefs which became them ; and ufe
the force committed to their hands for the effedual
protedion of the United Kingdoms.
Lord TEMPLR faid it was impoffible for Mitt,
confiftently with the principles on which he ailed,
to oppofe the propofition of this night; convinced,
as he was, of the indifpenfible neceflity of exerting
all our refources ; convinced, as he was, of the
intentions of France, and convinced, as he was, of
the defigns entertained by the Ruler of that coun-
try, for the fubjugation of this. GOD forbid,
therefore, that he fhould, by any vote of his, damp
the fpirit of the country, or check any little ener-
gies which he faw riling in the difpofition of his
Majelty's Minifters. But at the fame time he matt
condemn the novelty of proceeding in this cafe,
whereby the Right Hon. Gentleman calls upon the
Houfe for a Supply fo unufual, 'without explain-
ing an iota of the neceffity on which it was founded.
The fame condult was obferved on a former night,
when the Navy Eftimates were Molted by another
Hon. Gentleman ; and it was ()Wing to the fpirit
and perfeverance of a Right Hon. Friend of his
( Mr. T. Grenville) that Mainers, on that occafion,
were obliged to (peak out. On that oecafion, as
well as tonight, the Houle was told, that Pease
was to be maintained if podible; but that we were
to be prepared for war. Still, however, the Houle
was left in the dark to forth its own conjeaures ;
nor could it now tell whether it mit called on this
night to vote a Peace or a War iftablifhment.-..
The Noble Lord then proceeded to a detail of
circumstances refpoiting the difbanding of troops
both at home and abroad, under circumftancel
which warranted the molt ferious alarm ; for it was
juft at the moment when General Leclerc was faid
confidently to have been completely fuccefsful atl
St. Domingo; when he poffeffed a formidable force
ready for any other expedition; and this, whet
our Weft India Mends, and particularly Jamaica,
warezpored to the danger of an attack. Anotbst
ground of accufation againft Minifters, for difitimat-
ing the public force, was the treatment of Atilt
remonftrance on behalf of Switzerland, whitbef
they had fent their Envoy, Mr. Moore. i 4411 fat
the honour of this country was, or was apt come
promifed in that affair, the Houle had yet to keen
but it appeared, that at the very moment that *
ad of aggreffion was committed, Minitters mere
throwing away the power to relit it. In JUMP ft,
95,000 men were voted ; we were then in
of all thofe conquefts which were afterwards to be
Curraidfad tcp tin mph pada the Tow et
.

1

Amiens. But how came it, after all thefe places • I
bad been given up, and onrgarrifons brought home, ,
that we should now be called on to vote fo great a
force, not having thofe places to defend ? He knew
he should probably be told by a Right Hon. and
Learned Gentleman oppofite to him (the Attor-
ney General), that from him, and thole with whom
he ailed, ftrong oppofition fpeeches led to marvel-
lous good Government votes. He admitted the
fait, and for very good reasons, namely, that
though they approved the meafures, they dila!).
proved the men. He withed thofe men out of
power, and others in their place. For his own
part, he did not hefitate to fay, that he thought,
upon the whole, the continuance of War would
have been better than the. Peace which had been
concluded ; and that if it should now be found ne-
ceifary to renew the war—there was one perfon to
whom the country looked up to with reliance ; and
to whom the country, in granting a Supply, would
alfo give its confidence, for the application of that
Supply in a manner confillent with the honour and
the interefts of the country. He concluded by
voting foe the Supply, but not in any confidence
to his Majefty's Minifters.
General MAITLAND was far from depreciating
the opinions of thofe Gentlemen who argued for
low Peace Eftablifhments ; but before he admitted
the generality of the rule, he mull examine the
foundation of it. He differed in teto from thofe,
who argued that low Eftablifhments were the po-
licy of our fore-fathers, upon any other ground,
than that of their with to preferve what was called
the Balance of Power in Europe. In voting the
Supply of this night, thofe who looked at the power
of France, would perceive the Houfe was exafily
treading in the Reps of our anceflors ; who, how
ever jealous they were of arming the Crown with a
large military force, in time of Peace, were always
prompt 'to grant it whenever the public fafety re-
quired it. A Noble Lord had arraigned Minifters
this night eor calling on the Houfe to vote an extra-
ordinary force, without explaining an iota of the
caulks which rendered it neceffary. But if the pub-
lic notociety of the (late ofEurope was notfufficient
to ev:nce jhe neceffity of that force to the Noble
Lord, no human power could adduce reafon fuffi-
cient to fatisf: him. Indeed; the speech of the Noble
Lord himfelt this night, and there of his friends in
sill the debates which had occurred on fimilar fob-
lofts, had admitted and illnftrated the neceftity.
Into a detail of the melancholy &nation of the
other Powers of Europe he would not enter, but,
looking at France, the enormous mats of her po-
pulation, the fpirit and temper of her people, and
the principles of action by which the genius of the
cowry wasgoverned,it was impoffi ble for thi s coun-
try to be free from alarm. The fpirit of the peo.
pia of France was marked by an ardour for mili-
tary enterprise, which had eminently dillinguifhed
itself through gawps for the Taft ten years, and
now that fpirit was pointed towards this country
no a promtfing fource of spoil. What was the
fpirit of this Country towards France ? Not a
it of war and bloodfhed. Goa forbid The
iris
inculcated ip England from the cradle was
a spit it of jealonfy and rivalfhip towards France ;
asd when it was confidered, that the only country
from which France had received any effeetual check'
in her late career, was England—was it not obvious
then that all her jealousy would be roofed againft
this country ; and with fuck powers as (he now
poffeifed, was he to be told, that a low Peace Ella-
blitbment
was a proper pledge for onr fecurity ?
The pest thing to be eonfidered was the will of
France towards this Country ; and there we should 1
find, that whatever caufe exifted for exaggerating,
there was none to abate our" alarm. He perfea•
1, agreed with the sentiment of the Right Hon.
Gentleman who opened this debate, that aggra-
vatin eaarperated language ought not to be used,
and therefore he would not give a name to his
feelings, as to the conduct of France towards
Switzerland. But if France had the will, it was
the duty of this Houk to take care the should
not pads the means to deftroy this country.—
When the motion was made a few nights fusee for
50,000 Seamen, he fhould have gone away well
contented with the vote, satisfied upon the publi-
city of thofe circumftances which juaified it.—
But yet he was perfuaded it was not fo much in
the number, as in the arrangement of that force,
vr,as our pledge for fafety. But when he heard
it, aliened, from indubitable authority, that the
tinkle and gallant Admiral at the head of the navy
was feduloufly occupied in the arrangement of that
branch of the public force, and with fo much effed
as to be able to fend to fea fifty (hips of the line,
within one month of the fifty evidence of hoftility
on the part of France, and a confides-able part of
that force much fooner ; when he beard that we
pafeetTed a Meet ins high Rate of equipment, fupe-
riot by mow than one-third to the combined fleets
of France Spain and Holland, he would not hell-
, •
titi to octrua to that gallant officer the force and
the confidence of the country, with whore defence
hi was charged. With repel to the eftablifhment
propofed this night.be agreed with the Right Hon.
Secretary at War, that in its numbers confined the
fmalleft part of its ftrength : to the united fpirit,
firmnefs, and promptitude, which adluated the

Army, was to he fuperadded, that of the Volan.
seers, and the univerfal ardour and feeling of the
Country. Fur without thefe, little, indeed, would
,hyail the numbers of both Army and Navy. With
rotpoit to the Peace which had been concluded, if
there was any man in the Kingdom, who fhould
foil. more akliged than 20940, it was the Right
Honourable Gentleman on the floor, (Mr. Wysid•
hip), who had been the moa lisenuoits tearraign
it. Had the War continued longer, the Table of
the Houfe would have been catered with Petitions
fez ;hat very Peace, when the fpirits of the peo-
Of would have been &prefect, perhaps, beyond
the power of rallying :—but by the Peace, the
ffinit of the country was revived ; and having
bail an interval to reflea on its fituatian, was
tripled fop the common Etfety,. He could not
- to Itich had idle&

ternal fafety ; and to place the country .on tt
fpeftable footing, adequate to the perils of her U.
tuation. Having !tilted his opinions, he had
heitation in giving his hearty fupport to his bk.
jelly's prefent Minifters, notwithftanding the with'
of a Noble Lord for their removal from power ;
for the country would feel that by fuch a removal
they would have to experience the return of men
into office, who would prefer war to peace, who
had conitantly oppofed every thing like the reftor-
ation of amity with France, and would again.'
plunge the country into immediate hollilities.—
But, preferring, as he did, the maintenance of
peace, if praaicable upon terms contillent with
the honour and fafety of the country, and con-
vinced as he was,that a refpatable public force was
the heft means of preferving it, he would give his
moil hearty affent to the propofed Eftablithment.
General TARLETON Paid, he was greatly fur-
prifed at hearing what had fallen from the Noble
Lord who had jut fat down. For his part he re-
joiced molt fincerely at the termination of the war,
and hoped and trufted that Minifters would not
be again driven to take up arms from the reftlefs
and dominating fpirit of France. He thought the
etlimates propofed to be voted extremely necessary
for the fecurity of the kingdom. The Hon. Ge-
neral then trod nearly over the fame line of argu-
ment ufed by the Right Hon. Secretary at War to
prove the neceffity of keeping up a large eftablifh-
ment at prefent. He had confcientionfly voted
againft the further profecution of the war, and he
thought he could as confcientioufly vote for the
Peace. He was certain in his own mind that this
country enjoyed mor.: pritaital freedom, and eon-
fcquently more real happinefs than any other in
Europe. In viewing the prefent Rate of France,
he perceived her fierft Magiftrate to be a man of
the molt eminent capacity, and the molt fplendid
talents. He had been defcribed as the difciple of
Mahomet, and the Envoy of GOD ; but a gallant
Officer, now a Member of that Houfe, had (truck
the ftandard from the hands of this Difciple of
Mahomet, and he trulled the Envoy would not
find any credit in this country. He expreffed him
felt free from any alarm, as from the refpeetable
attitude of our fleets and armies, he doubted not
we should at all times be able to meet our enemies
with fuccefs.

Mr. ARCHDALI Paid, he hoped the prefent efta-
blithmentwould be taken as a proof of the fpirit and
unanimity of the country. It was not the voice of
irritation, but that of an united people determined
to preferve their rights, and prepared on all hands
to exert vigorous meafures when neceffary, that
would teAdfto the fafety of the kingdom from all
attacks whatever. It had been the praaice of
fame Hon. Gentlemen to vote the country into
meafures of defence, but to talk it into thofe of
defpair. The Hon. Gentleman argued on hart-
fibilties when he contended, that -France gin
have refources in pillage and alliances wi=th the
conquered. He was therefore for the motion.
Mr. CARTWZIGHT obferved, that the caufe of
complaint manifelled in that Houk againfl his
Majefty's Minifters, was, the want of information
alledged to be due from them, to the Houfe ; nor
were thofe who were diffittisfied in that refpea at
all inconfiftent by their votes. They difapproved
of Minifters, but they would not, on that account,
deliver the country over to the enemy. This Op-
pefition was upon a pure principle, not like former
Oppofitions, efpecially in the war before the laft,
where every thing was done with a mere view of
haraffing Government.
Mr. WHITBREAD agreed with the Hon. Gentle.
man (Mr. Banks) that the keeping up fo large
an eltablifhment as the one now propofed, was al-
together unneceffary. The chief ground of his
objeaion to the prefent Eftimates arofe from a
confideration that they appeared to him to be on
an infinitely more extenfive kale, than the relative
fituation of affairs between the two countries by
any means required. Whatever plans might be in
agitation, or might aftually have been fubmitted to
the confideration of Minifters, he was of opinion,
that plan would be by far the beft, and moil to be
depended upon, which at once evinced confiftency
and firmnefs • for in there there was a tower of
ftrength. The Navy Eftimates were confiderably
larger than was originally intended ; the Rt. Hon.
Gentleman having ftated that 30,000 men would
be a fufficient number, and then afterwards he
comes forward and demands so,ooo men. He was
not in the Houfe when the vote was agreed to, or
he fhould have given his reafons for chapproving
of it. tie did not totally objet to the vote, but he
thought the power fhould have been vefted in the
Honfe' and not in Minifters, as approaching nearer
the Conftitution. They had not Rated whether the
vote was to be limited to, the period of one year, or
whether it was to be confidered as the permanent
Peace E ftabli fitment. lithe Eftablifhment of France
waslooked to with attention, it would be found that
it was not by any means greater than under the old
Government of the Houfe of Bourbon. A gre't
many exaggerated flatements of the fituation of
France had been unneceffarily made with refpeft
to her flrength ; but could it be fuppored,for a mo-
ment, that the means the had taken to keep up her
force, were intended for any other purpofe than to
repel any attack that ntiglit be direaed againfl her.
France had ton freqt► felt, and felt (everely,
the power of Great Britain, both by land and fea,
to with heftily to commence meafures of hoitility.
His Hon. Friend had argued on the probable ag-
Hgreffion on the part of France, but he coefead he
derived no appreheprioa from ;ha; quarter. He
then adverted to the fituation of the Navy, and the
probability theyt was, that in a &kat time, a large
addition to the, tom of the country weight be got
ready. This s onlsnmeafttros4 (teeeevy caution%)
our part, and why gloom ipot this country bare the
cline opinios; withrefpea to de. eiseetieigs of trance.
For the rapt& of prc, sv,ias with what earn grotind-
iefs opinions ar b.e (IWO. tad the isorits
of a nation mi be *bee the sutildou
defined for St. Domingo vas prepared, it was is-
*asiouily that Jr ca_lculated to at-
loci. Foxed
„ins *at etir
- haergeoll6.lo4
cordeadastolge

a. would not hefitate 'to maintilo!
'dud of Frame, with refpeet to Swatterlank had
nothing in common with elle politic/4 'lttshts.
land claims of Great Britain. But whatetiet`
'be the ambition of the Fiat Conful; there did
did pot, he would undertake to fay, emit one per-
fon who thought it ftiperiar to that difplayed by
his predeceffore in power. The Hotife of Bour-
bon was engaged in'uninterrupted fchemes or ma-
nifeft attempts to injure the interefts of this coun-
try, and of the difficulties in which we were in-
volved on account of thefe machinations, no rea-
fonable man could entertain a doubt. He therefore
firenuoutly oppofed the views and attempts of the
party, which, without any folid grounds, exerted
every faculty, and tried every art to raife the fpi-
rit of alarm, and throw the natit - into trouble
and coalition. He viewed the late peace with the '
higheft fatisfaetion, and trolled, that a fmall Mili- !
tary and Naval Eftablithment would anfwer every
end of external independ.:nce and internal fecu-
rity. The men who had reduced the country to
a calamitous fituation, he fincerely trailed, would
not be again called Into power, but he was proud
to fay, that there were men, whole virtues and abi-
' lities, if called into adion, would give new ener-
gies to the refources and fpirit of the nation, and
tend, in the moil fatisfalory way, to the confoli-
dation of the relations of peace and amity.
General MAITLAND explained.
Mr. RYDER obferved, it was unneceffary for hint
to reply to the attack made on his Right Hon.
Friend. That attack was always made when he
was abfent. It could eafily be replied to by thofe
who had witnetred his condo& for eighteen years ;
but the coarfe epithets which had been ufed were
belt anfwered by the gratitude of the country to-
wards that Right Hon. Perfon on whom the abufe
was lavithed. Having laid this much, he pro-
ceeded to confider the queffion before the Com-
mittee. Were we to declare that it was our inten-
tion to fit fill, with fmall eftablifhments without
allies, and fee France devour the veil of thei world,
content U the thould make a faap at us the latt ?
or is it. fuppofed that the is fatisfied with the pu-
nifhment the has inflided ? That' punithment is i
not, it was true, regretted in a certain quarter.—
It has been Rated, that we deferved it, and. fatif-
fadion has been exprelred that the war had ended
gloriouilyfor France, and inglorioully for England.
But were we to negled all the refources of defence
in our Power, 'while France was increafing her
Power ? Were we to wait for events and to re-
main watching the ofcillations of the balance of
Europe until the Gaul threw his fword into the
fcale, and made it preponderate for ever ? He
believed the people were happy to bear the expence
of an eftabliffiment neceffary for the fecurity of
the Nation. He alked Minifters for no explana-
tions, and was ready to vote for the motion with-
out any of that information which Tome Gentlemen
resit!ired.
Mr. SHERIDAN addrefl'ed the Houle to the fol-
lowing drat :--" Sir, in requefting the attention
of the Houle to the remarks I have to offer, I con-
, firs myfelf fomewhat in a fimilar fituation, and af-
feded nearly by the fame impreffion, as the Hon.
Gentleman who has kill fat down. I do not pre-
cifely agree with any of thofe Gentlemen who have
hitherto expreffed their opinion of the prefent fitu-
ation of the country. The crifis in which we are
placed is, indeed, fo big with tremendous impor-
tance, fo pregnant with mighty difficulties, fu full
Of apprehenfions and of perils, that the Houfe, and-
the country, have a right to know what the inten-
tions and the views of thofe are by whore exertions
we may exped to be extricated from this complica-
tion of embarraffments, and fnatched from the very
brink of deftrudion. Influenced by this afped cf
affairs, the country looks for advice. It is not Ad-
miniltration alone that is called on for this declara-
tion of their fentiments, but alfo every Member of
this Houfe, who is equally bound to deliver his
opinion, and to fuggeft the means by which the
country can be prelerved from the perils which
threaten it. Thus affeded in my mind, I have no
hefltation to alien, that I do fincerely regret 'fuch
conftant alluflon thould be made to the charader
and talents of the Gentlemen who at this moment
fill the fituation of his Maje fly's Mini tiers. Although
I admire, in the highett degree, the talents of
many Gentlemen to whom I am in principle, and
in perfon molt ftrongly attached, yet I feel it my
duty to withhold myfelf from imitating the ex-
ample let by tome, who, in a crifis fit pregnant
with alarm, entertain themfelves with allufions to
a particular man, or to any particular let of men.
For if ever there was a moment when this Houle
thould thew to the Country, Europe, and the
World, that they were deluded by no party fpitit,
Wafted by no political prediledions, aetuated by
no paltry fcramble for places; influenced, in a
word, -by no mean or mercenary motives, the pre-
fent curtly is that moment. But in ail-cuffing the
topics more immediately under the confideration
of the Houle, I thould perhaps attend to the ad.
vice of thofe who dill-Lade the adoption of all of
perky of language, all virulence of animadverfion
refpeding the charader and condud of the Firft
Conful of France. In purfuing the line of condut
fo ftrongly recommended, I feel it, however, in-
cumbent upon me to fpeak the language of truth;
yet in delivering that language with franknefs and
candour, I may, and it is not at all improbable
that I (hall wore myfelf to the charge of utter-
ing
invectives. An Hon. General, when alluding
to the late condud held by Bonaparte with refped
to Switzerland, pledged himfelf to refrain from a
free opinion on the fobjed ; yet it fa happened,
when he did take a view of it, more particularly
as it related to Switzerland, he could not abilain
rum reprobating the inflances of perfidy and ty-
reflux which charaderifed the meaCitres of the Firft
Confal in regard to that harmlefs, brave, and in-
oMenGve people. An Hon. Friend ( Mr.Whitbread)
alluding to,the fame meafures, maintains that they
give ri.4 but to one opinion; yet he does notfcruple
r to eenfure the Hon. General for forfeiting the
he had given, in exprang his fentiments
lof indignation at the treatment experienced by the
ISmits, l'hus„ Sir, it evidently appears, that the opi.
nigni of the Hon. Gentleman is, or isnot' adopted by
my Ilea. FTiend. If he adopts it, and does not
lionapartes invofion of Switzerland, he
afire from the Ron. General, and it

re:r,yanua:ll-.leen ':)F
follows that there is not ooe, but two 3iYi :r, • T'W
refpedl to the condufeetntohifiedthey:oC;iich,,ietilli,Ctrodien,s4;fil-nilnl:jt,..::tl
n ce .
fituation
tlutaltsiaosnlane
that the changes which have v arc taken hi .gd.n,
1,64Pc, Irlth,.
irelativen n
figning of the Definitive T i e
ofimdeernetd; asit iiiini al of algt g-reiii[;,:
onougilt very
ii
omaterial
to b
. s been f• . ,
econin
the condu& of France, with f A fail, ti.i'
re pc,. to Swine-la
7.,..1.,,. '.
again(' this country ; and it has • a been boldly av,)v.
eel, that we have nothing •
to dread, on the '..
le part , i
the French Republic, but her inc'rear
and her reliefs fpirit of ag,grandiierti.;iet.ofi;c;:.,tr
low me to Rik, is not this a fullici - ;,..
alarm ? Is it not a jolt and folic! it
groundeallte --..:
tc. air sap.
prehenfion ? Is not her increale of
cumflance vehich we thotild view wit?rt)hecig.' a c":
diftrult, with the omit wakeful jealoufv, v.-•ii,ritt"
molt attentive vigilance ; more particularly' 1',..'
we cannot help obferving, that it is (,)11„,,`vdleu
'i
by a proportionate angmentation, of a tiiinhit.
to int nate our national I,:clinand r Idfli
PI to find
oia
new and fruitful fources (4' , are 0...
J .uite. yet it
may not be altogether the queftion for us nrec'L e ;
to invefligate, whether the power of France be
greater than than it was in the month of lone la:I ) It
is rather for ut to enquire and detei m c'"ine, if p
fible, whether the temper and the dilpofitlnf
evinced by the Chief Conful, he tie lame- as s we
then remarked them, and whether nliey A .
uo tint
manifeft a fupeiior degree ri-r
?, ambition and a:ti-
mothy, than on any previous nccarion ? In. r
& mind, Sir, his condo towards Switzerland m.
aline
betrays fuch unequivocal depornirations of per-
fidy, and to glaring a lull of dominion, that I
feel no difficulty in layinf, it effels a contiderable
change in the relative ntnation in which the two
countries were placed, at ti:e moment referred to,
and adds to the indignation by which I was ani-
mated. lam not, however, &limns of Wii!olg
in the language of inveaive ; for my great %%lib is
to appeal to the inernlible evidence of fans. Let
me, however, make a few remarks on the genaal
queftion of peace or war. Ido not prefunue much
1 when I fay that I am as ftrongly earned in. the
maintenance of peace as any man ; and I will'add,
1
1 that no man is more convinced than myfelf, that
war is no remedy for the evils we have to deplore.
—A fpirit of warfare, the indignation of chivalry,
may no doubt be kindled in the breatl of this
Country againtl the bale and defpotic treatment
of the unfortunate Swifs : but that while
fpirit,
and that indignation, mat be confidered as a
valuable pled&e of the noble and honourable feel.
in sof the nation, yet arc we to confider as a cafe
of War the circumtlinces by which they are ex-
cited ? I mutt then fay, if nothing has happened
fince the conclufion of the Treaty of Amiens,
that can prove a futEcient juilification for the al-
ternative, of War, that Peace Ihould, if poffible,
be maintained firm and unalterable in all its rela-
tions. The effe,tas of War are, in every intlance,
calamitous ; but however deplorable they may
be, and folicitous as we ourfelves thould be for
the prefervation of tranquillity, yet we thould be
fortified to meet by wife and extenfive preparation,
and by.ready and refolute refitlance, the fira aft
of jai& or aggreflion that may be offered on Ike
part of France. If that a& fhould unfortunately
take place, why then, Sir, let us with every, juit
fentiment of national dignity, and of honourable
pride, enter into hottilittes, however ferious, how-
ever alarming, the confequences may prove. Upon
this principle. I exprefsly (late, I titan give mr
vote for a large Peace Ettabliffiment ; and I do it
that Minillers may be enabled to place the country
in a fituation adequate in vigour and refources to
any danger with which it may be threatened. h
is, Sir, my carpel defire, that my conflituents and
the country lhould know my tenements ; for I am
particularly anxious, that when I accede to a mea-
lure calculated to add to their burthens, they
thould be well informed of the groundsupon which
I give my vote. To the different Gentlemen, v:ho
have Rated to the Houle their fentiments urn
this important topic, I have liflencd with more
than ufital attention; but I have been particularly
attentive to an Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Banks?,
1 whore eloquence and relpeaability always claim a
1 ditlinguifhed rank. That Honourable Gentkreaa
1 declares, that his Majetty's Minitters fhun expla-
nation, with refpdt to the nature and extent. cf
the dangers they apprehended. While he adnuts,
that if they did give that explanation he fo much
‘
1 defires, he (honld be ready to concur in the means
of meeting them to any amount. This mode of ar-
guing appears to me rather ftrange and unaccount-
able : for he admits that lie doubts the exittence of
' the danger. Let me then all: him, what is the
erplanatior. which he would require of them ?
Does he with that Mir:niers Ihould produce the
particular documents, or bring forward the precife
intelligence upon which they think themfelves
juftified in providing meafttres of defence and le-
! curity ? Has not the general explanation, into
I which they have entered, been fufficiently latisfac-
tory ? And arc not the dangers with which we ate
menaced fenfible to every ear and eye ? Is not
every underaanding that obler vcs, and every heartf
that feels, Rruck with the magnitude of them .
The fingle queftion, then, for eilr confideration,is
whether we fliould be prepared to repel them ?--
The Honourable Gentleman objeas to the pro-
poled eßablifliment of 130,000 men: becaufe DO
jut' proportion can exit' beaten it arnl the militati
eflablithment of France. If his argument be jail
in this point of view, it would follow that we might
as well reduce our force to too° men, or, indeed,
make no provifion at all, fince all our exertions
can give no total equal to the military eftablifh-
ment of the French Republic. I perfatly agree,
Sir, with thofe who recommend to Minifters,not to
involve themfelves raffily in Continental aPtances..
They ihould not, it has been advanced, engage is
them inconfiderately, and to prove this, Milan/
in former wars have been quoted ; yet they might
he found in abundance during the late war.. 1k As.
4? ' rtea
it not notorious that the Islinitters who condo...
that war pledged themfelves repeatedly to profte:
cute it with every finew, faculty, and energy t 1
country could afford ?
Yoe° certatum et corrore regnt. . 4 .
Bnt had they redeemed the pledge that rose mail
hadifounbl
I ZsitticikadvO ttoheyaccomrlilttlicJwo
11114 tereforet W de ia

•

aisick **clog' to an argurnsnt, which had fidkn. dqatioutly circulated it was Weal
frsios.sa, Wpm Member. early n the debate, (Mr. tack this moat,. bit WIMP tisat aWi
• )• if or Snit! Inge to qope ie aaaa, fajleeiouk ui cord/Room °fits restehiti
• W. -our cak, oa that pouted, 100 y. then another fulpteeftverfaot hAdi
• • •
•
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4""
ittlt-bilid- DO Odic Frena) CatttlaMsalk-