Star.
London, England, 1805-04-11 00:00:00

•
. which tho Route, confiftent with their proceeding on a
former evening, could content not to pats the prefent
propofition, and that was, that the principle fhould be
admitted and recognifed, that no perfon under the een-
fare of that Houle 'bold be appointed to any place of
trull and confidence as bing as he remained fo. The
Houle would not ael c,,olidently if they did not follow
up the decilion of Monday hall. They fhould not have
come to the decifion they did, unlefs they were fatif
Red the cafe was fully made nut but that being
done, and the prcmifcs fairly eflablifhed, the conch!.
lion, or, in other words, the prefent propofition fol-
lowed as a necelfary confequence. The Noble Lord
has unfortunately placed hitnfelf in that fituation that
he cannot either now or hereafter fill .any employ-
ment of troll. It then becomes the duty of the Houle
to take every rational fecurity that he fhould not, and i
there was no fectirity fo (Irony or fo fatisfaElory as
the motion propufed by his Hon. Friend. It was
their duty to the public to take every neceffary pre
caution that it fboald not happen hereafter, which in
their prefent judgment, they thought fhonld not hap-
pen now. As to the charges of paffinn or malice,
which had been fo confidently urged by the cool Gen
tleman (Mr. Canning) on the oppofite bench, he
would put it to every candid man in the Honfe to
fay whether they had pile beyond the line of their
duty, and whether they were going ? If they were,
let it be thewn by argument, and let it not tell upon
the intemperarc affertions of the Right Hon. Gentle.
man. Parliament had made a great effort, fuch a
one as, he was pet fnaded, would entitle them to the
thanks and gratitude of the whole kingdom ; he
wifhed that they would continue thole efforts; he with-
ed to to take fecurity againft their falling off. It
would be a lamentable infiance of the mutability of
opinion if they thould forfeit, by indifference or lan-
guor, the high honours which their condo& on the
preceding evening had obtained them from " all forts
of people," honour-,

" Wklch mould be worn now in their newdt glofs.
" Not eaft stale fo foam"

The Right Hon. Gentleman had indulged himielf in
the ufe of tome firong expreffions option the force
of popular prejudice and clamour; in that he fully
coincided with him. To yield upon any oceaflon to
public clamour, fo far as to condemn any one upon
it, would be, in his opinion, one of the meanefi and
moll unjuft ads of which a deliberative body could
he capable. But as the Noble Lord had not, as he
would contend, been condemned under the influence
of public clamour, he conceived it the duty of the
Heroic to proceed and follow up their refolutions of
Monday, by agresing to the motion of his Honoura-
ble Friend. Leaving out of the queftion all idea of
partiipation in the profits derived from the tile of
the public monks, and looking only to the ablirad
crime, the bare and naked violation of an Ad of
Parliament, dill he would maintain, that the Honie
was in duty bound, if they valued confillencyt if they
valued the maintenance of their own honour, to pro-
teed and to pals the motion made by his Hon. Friend
as a neceffary inference, and corollary from the re-
lolutions to which they had agreed on Monday lati.
Gentlemen would do well to recoiled, that they were
not in a Court of &id judicial proceedings, but in a
Court where the intereils, the honour, and the feel-
ings of the people were to be coofidered. Theratere
not to be fettered by the ordinary maxims of the ju-
dicial tribunals, but the privileges of Parliament were
to be afferted by them in that mode which they
thought molt likely to chablifh and preferve them.
The Noble Lord war undoubtedly carat anticir, and
he bad no objedion that he thould long remain fo ;
but it was as true, that he was no longer idottnupatria ;
and, therefore, he thought it necelary that the Houle
(kould declare fo. If it was underflood that the No.
ble Lord flruld not be appointed to any place oftruft
and confidence as long as the refolutions agreed 'to on
Monday remained on the journals, that may be Urged
as an argument again( the adoption of his Honour.
able Friend's motion ; but after what had palled, it
was his opinion that the Houk, if it is to be con-
fifient with itfelf, fhould agree to the motion for an
addrefs to his Majeliy.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER—
" I rife, Sit, merely for the purple of expreffing my
fenfe and undertlanding of the prefent Rate of this
fobjed, and not by any means to injure the merits of
the motion which what I have now to offer may per-
haps render unneceffary ; I cannot but hope that
the Houfe will have the fame feeling on this fubje.t,
which was expreffed in the conclulion of the fpeech
of the Right Hon. Gentleman who (poke halt I
confidently troll, that the generous fentiments of li-
berality and tendernels of fparing the feclir...bs of the
Noble Vifcount, in In new and humiliating a fituation
will be adopted. They will, I expel:4 be fatisfied
with hearing, that while the prefent refolutions ap-
pear upon the Journals of the Houle. all thoughts of
Lord Melville's refloration to power or office mull
be totally at an end. If, however, in the fubfequenr
cootie of the proceedings, the Houk (hould be of a
different opinion and vote that the prefent refolutions
fhould be refcinded, it mutt naturally follow, that the
difqualification of the Noble Lord will ceafe, when
the charges difappear; but the only thing that excited
my forprife was, that while thefe refolutions exified
I and pending other proceedings, fuch a motion as the
prefent fhould have been thought neceffary, for furely,
under the prefent circumflances, it would be impnal-
Mc for any Minifier to advife his Majefly to. confer
any employment upon the Ntible Vifcount. The only
difference between us is, therefore, in the mode of,
following up the refolutions, for while they remain
there can be no difference as to the coofequences."
Mr. FOX—" The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Bankes)
feet xs to me to have miflaken the proceedings on a
'former night, at icaß with regard to their import.—
I-lc-lays, if t!:e ref)tution now propofed had been
1 moved upon that occafion, he fhould have keen dif.
poled to vote for it as a corollary to that propofi-
lion, but that the Rate of Ole queftion has been al.
tered by what has taken place fence that time. Now
it mull be in the recollettion of the Houfe, that the
Right Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Pitt) Paid at
the time that it was not fit to difeufs a fubjed of fo
great magnitude at fo late an hour of the night.—
In this recommendation I acquiefeed, becaufe I do
not approve of the pratlice cf introducing motions
of importance at•an unfeafonable time, although I
admit I may be as guilty of that rradice as any
man. Hoalver, when I did Co yield to the fug
gellion of the Right Hon. Gentleman, I did not un-
derhand him as hinting in the remoteß degree at
what has &ice paired, and making fuch conditional

',agreement for delaying the bufinefs. I did not lay
not infinuate that the Houle would he fatisfied with
the refignation of Lnrd Melville. I did, no doubt,
fay that Minifiers might do their duty in the mean
time, in Mete a way as might render it unneeefrary
to propote any mealure for the removal of Lord Mel-
ville ; but I was not looking to any courfe which Lnrd
Melville might chnofe for himfelf. If then we have
loft the vote of the Hon. Gentleman, it is not be-
caufe we have varied our conduct, or on account
of ally thing that has fince taken place, but becaufeI yield to an argumentsan ad vrrerimetarn, and con-
tented to the delay propofed by the Right Hon.
Gentleman (Mr. Pitt). Sir, with regard to the
fpeech of a Right Hon. Member oppon:e (Mr. Can-
ning), it is to weak and irrelevant, I can fcarcely
confider it as worth notice. It looks as if the joy
and fatisfadion felt by the public at the vote of Mon-
day night, and the riling fpirit of the country, had
excited in the hreaft of that Itonour able Gentleman,
a fpirit of indignation which vents itfelf, irrelevant,
and deftitute of any Lrnunde. Among other thiags
it charges an Honourable Friend of mine (Mr. G.
Ponfonby) with advancing tyrannical and uncouth-
tutional pi inciples. Now, Sir, what are thefe prin-
ciples ? My Hon. Friend, after plainly and candidly
(Eating the cafe of Lord Melville, laid, that a man,
thus cnnvid2ri by his own confeftion, (bout(' have
been fufpended from office. There are innumerable
cafes in which this courfe has been taken, and there is
not one precedent of the contrary way. What, in the
name of GOD! when our Steward has betrayed our
confidence, and been, upon his own conleflion, guilty
of grofs mifmanagement, mutt we continue him in
that mitt and fituation, left we fhnuld prejudice his
charader ? and, are we to be told, that it is uncon-
ftitutional and tyrannical to obterve that caution
which is neceffary to prevent the continuance of the
injury and the evil ? A contrary courfe may have
fatisfied the Right Hon. Gentleman, who thought fit
to continue Mr Trotter in office, left his difiniffal
might prejudice his charader ; and this, after Mr.
Trotter had cnnfeffed his own mlicondue, and was,
to the knowledge of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
throwing ever y obfinsflion in the way of an inquiry,
neceffary to the attainment of the ends of juftice.--;
But, if the Right Hon. Gentleman thought it right
to continue and encourage Mr. Trotter, under fuch
circumftances, why has he difmiffed him now ? The
vote of the Houfe, on Monday night, only related
to Lord Melville ; but, wi.h regard to Mr. Trotter,
adhuc firbjirdice Gr 0. His cafe is now precifely in
the fame !late in which it was then, and requires
the fame tendernefs and delicacy. To account,
then, for this change of condigt, I can only fuppote
that the Right Honourable Gentleman feting the
impreffinn which the vote has made, and the fatis-
fadion which it has given, has yielded to the public
voice. Having laid thus much, in jitflice to my
Hon. Friend, I will now add, that, however I may
fubjed myfelf to the fame cenfure, and (hall be
charted with hitternefs and rancour, I cann-t fit ft-
lent in the Houfe, and hear unfounded panegyrics be.
flowed upon Lnrd Melville. I k..nw nothing in the
character of Lord Melville that ffinuld entitle him to
tendernefs, in a cafe of convided guilt. is it becaufe
he has enereated the emoluments of office to an extent
beyond any of his predeceffors? Is it becaufe he has
obtained a grant to Lady Melville, of the Fcws of
Fife, with the arrears due at the time, without can-
fidering how thefe arrears flood at the time, and whe•
ther they were not the public money ? for it is now
underftood, that the amount of !bele arrears was not
known at the time, and that the grant was made with-
out knowing its extent. is it becaufe he has added
tgoo!. a year to his Nary at the Admiralty ? Are
thefe his claims to tendernefs, and his titles to pane-
gyric ? But, it is laid Lord Melville never was a hit-
ter adverfary ; that he has employed in the army and
in the navy, perfons who differed from him in political
principles. In what cafe have Minittcrs in his fituation
not done fo ? Could he retitle to employ fuch men as
Bir George Saunders and Admiral Keppel, becaufe
they differed from him in political fentiments ? I
do remember,: however, that, at a time when this
Country was in great danger, when its very exigence
was at flake, a propaition for the defence of the
country, the molt economical for Government, and
the moil liberal and foirited, on the part of the per-
fon propofing ; I tneanan offer ,from Taviflock, to
'ile a body of men, was l'ejeded by the Noble Lord,
becaufe he knew the late Duke of Bedford was to
command them. I do not mention the circumflance
in compliment to the memory of my much-lamented
friend. I have related the anecdote only to flaw
how unfounded thole panegyrics are upon the libera-
lity of Lord Melville. There is another tale, which
proves how little his Lordfhip deferves the praife of
never fuffering his conduit to he influenced by party
feeling ; I mean the difmiffal of the Dean of Faculty
of Advocates of Edinburgh (the Honourable Henry
Editing), the brother to my worthy friend who fits
near me ; two men, to whom, if any extraordinary
exertions of virtue were neceffary, I do not know
any to whom 1 fhould look with more confidence.—
But the cafes of Sir Charles Grey and Sir John
Jervis (Lord Grey and Earl St. Vincent), have been
referred to as inliances of the great liberality of
Lord Melville. I have taken the trouble of
looking over the Journals for this cafe, in which
the Right Hnnourable Gentleman has made fo much
parade of the fupport received by the parties from
Lord Melville. Did he do fo not knowing their
cattle to be jug There two meritorious Officers,
it appears, when on (ervice in the Weft Indies, had
remedied the blunders of the Adminifbatinn, of
which the Noble Lord was a part ; but, in fo doing,
had made themfelves refponfible by undertaking
a mealuie not. exadly within their inftruelions, and
this is the lunation in which my Lord Melville makes
a merit of his fupport. Now, Sir, having made thcfe
obfervations, I mull allude to what has fallen from
a Bank Direaor (Mr. Thornton). That Hon. Gen-
tleman admits th.st Lord Melville has been guilty of
negligence and inattention in office. Sir, I can only
fay, that the vote of Monday night went much far-
ther, and if the Hon. Gentleman thinks it did not
charge a greater offence, he ought not to'have fup-
ported it. Now, Sir, I have no objedion to fay, that
in confequence of what has fallen from the Right
Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Pitt), and from the
Hon. Gentleman who fits upon the fame fide of the
Houle with me (Mr. Bankes), I have no with to
prefs the Houle to a divifion. The Hon. Gentle-
man lays, we may do hereafter What is now pro-
poltd. I think Co too = and, what is more, I think

we muff do fo. He adds, that we cannot yet know
how the billinefs may turn out, and that it nr..r
come to an impeachment. In this alfo I agree with
him ; but I fear fome Gentlemen do not dikriminAte
as they ought in the proceedings, which the cafe
mantis. If the Attorney General is to be directed
to take legal (legs for the recovery of the films whkit
have been made from the public money, that is a
civil procefs. If alfo feveral grants have been m.tde
to Lord Melville, it may be necelfary to enquire on
what grounds his Majefly has been induced to make
them ; and if they have been made upon mifrepie-
rentations, they ought to be revoked. Tiler-, how-
ever, are all civil proceedings, and very dillind from
the court, that fhould follow his contlud, conlidered
as a breach of the law. Whatever comic then may
be taken upon the civil fide of the quellion, I think
the addrefs is the belt mode of Forifhing the criminal
nroceedivgs. However, after the declaration of the
Right Hon. Gentleman (NIT. Pitt), and made in the
way it is, I have no objection to delay it; becant:.
after Inch an affitrance, and from inch a quarter. I
think there can he no danger of Lord Melville being
placed in any office of unit. With regnard, Sir, to
the punithment fought for, I find that, during the 45
years of his prefent Majefty's reign, there have been
but two perfons upon whom the punifhment of remo-
val from his Majefly's Privy Council has been inflided,
the Duke of Norfolk and myfelf.—Now, Sir, I may
venture to fay for both of us, that we want no fuch
companion as Lord Melville. In Ireland, no doubt,
fome inftances have occurred. There is one cafe par.
titularly, I mean that of my honoured and elieem-
cd friend, Mr. Grattan. In milt:qui:nee of the
union, he comes into the fame lunation as the Duke
of Norfolk and myfelf; and, dicier, ire, though for
our own parr, we did not objet to the company of
Lord Melville, we do not with to introduce my
elteemed and revered Friend, the profecutor of p
lic abufes, the fupponer of public vn me, pre-emi-
nerd in purity, as he is in talents, to the company
of Lord Melville. Afier the declaration of the
Right lion. Gentleman, he admitted it was not polli-
ble that Lord Melville could be reftored ; and in that
cafe the motion not being refl.-mg, he had nu objection
to its being withdrawn. But admitting that, and fup.
poling this condi to be taken, it may be %tor h con.
fidermg how the cafe (lands, fuppofing Lord Melville
veligned, and the bufinels to proceed no father. On
Monday we voted the premifes. Does, then, the Hon.
Member (Mr. Bunke!) mean to negative the conclu.
iron ? Is that the courfe which the accurate mind of
the Hon. Member approies ; that we &mid pro-
nounce Lord Melville guilty, but refute to call for
judgment upon him ? Such would be the incontinency
which the motion, if negatived, would involve; but if
it be only withdrawn, tke cafe will not be to aukward.
There may be alfo this further reafon for delay,
that ComethinA may be expe&ed to be done in the
mean time. l'be queition has made a greater ins-
preffipn upon the public mind, than any cafe that has
occurred for many years. The public were grateful
to the Houle for their condud, and looked lip to
them with joy and thankfulnefs. But was the Houle
to be anxious only for their own charader, and to
be inattentive to the honour of the Government and
the Crown ? The Hoof- of Commons have proved
themfclves the true ReprefentatiVes of the People,
by exprefling their indignation at the conduct of
Lord Melville; but not a tingle mark of difrpproba-
tion has been expo (Ted by his Majefly. No fuch
dif-
approbation can be implied from the refignation of
Lord Melville. The refignati..n of a Minilier may
be the molt honourable at of his life.
reigned
Las fallen
to my lot to be in office, arid to have reigned more
than once ; and I went next day to Court, feeling
myfelf neither punifhed nor degraded, to pay my
refpe&s and duty to my Sovereign. May not Lord.
Melville do the fame ? Dearly as I love this Houk,
as the fource of every great public benefit and ad-
vantage to the country; dearly as I love it, as the
corner-none of the Contlitution, and the founda-
tion of our liberties ; I will not fay that it is more
dangerous that the nation Ibould lofe its confidence
in the Houle of Commons, than its confidence in
the Throne: And is there not a danger that fuch
may be the cafe, if it may be laid, that, upon a
great que(li. n like thiF, the Houfe of Commons
have done their duty, but hi: Majelly has been
fitistied in a different manner ? Sir, this will not
be a nine days wonder. From the impreffion which
it has made upon the publi:, and the (late (1 ferment
in whi:h the agitation of it may long keep the pub-
lic mind, will it be right, I afk, to enable thole per•
fins, who may not be the bell diftuded towards the
Monarchical part of our Contlitution, to draw a line
between his M jelly and the Parliament ? I warn
Minitterc of their duty to take care that no fuel/ len-
guage (hall be held, by leaving no pretence for it, or
implicatingithe true interefts of the Throne. 'rutting,
therefoie, that Minillers will do their duty, I have no
objection that the motion Ilia old be I%l,lldt:inn, in
the colifidence of a more comple;e aid fatist.taory
explanation and conchifion at a future dr.)."
Mr. WILBERFORCE was of opinion with his
Hon. Friend (Mr. Banks) that for the prefent at kali
the motion of the Honourable Gentleman ought to be
withdrawn. This opinion, however, he had firmed,
not in confcquence of any communication with friends,
nor from attachment to any party, but from his own
view of the whole cafe. He regretted that the mo-
tion had been made, but did not fay at the tame time
that he would not vote for it, were the queltion put
to the Houle. Whatever his opinions relpeding the
difmiffion of Lord M. might he, this nrealute certain.
ly had been rendered lets necefTary by the refignation
of the Noble Lord. In regard to the reference ni..2e
by the Right Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Canning) tothc
conilud of Lord Melville in the cafe of the two No-
ble Lords, whole conduit had been the fubjed of in-
quiry before the Houle, he admitted it did great ho-
nour to that Noble Lord; but he difapproved at the
fame lime of the manner in which tkat circumnante
had being Dated. The Hon. Member concluded,
by entreating the Honourable Mover of the Motion,
not to do away the hal pe etret of the V, to of the
former evening, by atii_mpting to go farther than
tome, he was perfuaded, would think it their duty to
accompany kim. Governed by no popular reefing,
he would not fay, whether he would or wou.d nos '
vote for the immure, but 'warmly urged the Hon..
Gentleman to withdraw his Motion. •
Mr. FULLER was of opinion, that the whole
bufmcfs would' be bell fettled by a Committee, and if
any thing had been wrefted from the pockets of_ the
people, hoped that the Gentleman would not rcl