Star.
London, England, 1830-07-02 00:00:00

TONGEIT SILL.

On the Order of the Day being read foe going into Committee on
the punishment of death for forgery Bill,
The Earl of MAIZIESBURY wished to know why this Bill
was not extended to Ireland and Scotland ? for his part be could not
see why there should be one law on the subject on this aide of the
Tweed, and another on the opposite side.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said it was the wish of the right
hon. secretary, who brought the bill into the other house, that an
experiment should be made in England, and he had no doubt but it
would be ultimately extended all over the empire.
After a few words from the Duke of WELt.tworow and Load
31.u.st2savav, their Lordships resolved into a C'ommiace on
the Bill.
013 the question being put on the fourth clause.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he wished to state his ob-
jections to the Bill. They resolved themselves into two, namely, the
alteration in the punishment of death for forging negotiable securi.
ties, and the transfer of stocks; as regarded these, he wished the
law to remain as it was at preaent ; but whatever might be his opi.
nion on the subject, he would at once bow to the decision of their
lordsbip., if they should happen to dirty with him. The noble and
learned lord entered into the history of the laws regarding forgeries,
to shew that the punishment of death had always been found neces-
sary to check the crime. The great argument was that the severity
of the punishment defeated the object. He did not think so, be-
cause the crime was not one of the greatest frequency, considering
the great facilities which were afforded fur it, particularly in the
immensely extensive dealings of the people of London. He would
take the liberty of directing the attention of their lordships to the
great extent of these dealings, and of the necessity of affording them
every protection. Out of 20 bankers in London, four of them had,
in the short period of three days, in the last month, turned nine
millions sterling, and the yearly transactions of these four houses
amounted to a sum of upwards of 500 trillions ; and in the whole
twenty houses, the yearly transactions amounted to 1,000 millions,
which was considerably more than the whole of the national debt.
The small number of forgeries committed in the course.of these
great transactions, was another proof that the present law operated
well. He did not coincide in the opinion that jurors did not gene.
rally perform their duties in forgery caws. His own experience
taught him to think differently. Besides there was no punishment
that he knew of which could be substituted for that of dta.h I
in such cases. Transportation was wholly inefficient, ut.d
solitary imprisonment was allien to the free constitution of this coon-
try.—( Hear, hear.) And subjecting culprits of this kind to ha t 1
labour in the hulks, would only be imposing upon them a slower
and a more painful, as well as a more ignominious death. The
noble and learned lord then moved to substitute for the latter part
of the clause these words do suffer death as a felon."
The Marquis of LANSDOWN felt confident that the present
law was in practice no protection against the crime of forgery, anal
notwithstanding the opinion of the noble and learned lord, he was
sure a milder punishment would be more effectual. At all eve: to
the bill before the house was only an experimemal one, and if at
expiration, in five years, it was found ineffectual, it need not be re•
Hewed. He should oppose the amendment.
Lord WYNFORD said that his experience at the !tar and on the
bench led him to conclude that the present law was mere effectua;
than the proposed one. It was mercy not to repeal, but to coctihue
this law, for it was the great object of law to deter from the
commission of crime; and he would ask whether it was not mere
humane to transport 100 persons than to execute one.—(Hear,bear.)
Tort TENTERDEN also supported the amendment.
L .rd ELDON said be had been nearly 25 years in a situation re-
quiring hint to advise his sovereign in cases of life and death, and
the result of his experience led him to think that the repeal of sic
present law to the extent intended, could be neither consistent w th
justice nor mercy.
Their lordships then divided. when there appeared,
For the Lord Chancellor's amendment
Against it 2O
Majority
The house then resumed, and the report was ordered to be re-
ceived to-morrow (this day )
Adjourned at half-past Eight o'clock.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Jvtle I.
Petitions were presented front lillsborough, in Inlaid, atn.irst
any additional duties on stamps in Ireland ; from New Ross, to trw
same effect ; and from a parish in Dublin, to the same effect.
Lord F.. GOWER brought up his Majesty's answer to ila
Address of Condolence.
Petitions were presented from Longrords against tl'c irCreah'e g/f
taxation in Ireland ; from the Chamber ut Commerce in Home: it.
ham, complaining of the sufferings of merchants on Recount of mate
transactions at Copenhagen : from Dungarvon, in the county of
Waterford, against the Vestry and Subletting Acts; ham a !O WT:
in Lancashire, against the burning of Ilindoo widows ; three erh.:s
to the sante effect, from different parts of England ; from the Chant.
be cf Commerce in Plymouth, praying for a reduction of ditty cc
molasses, in propottion as nu made un sugar; from Lan.i.t• h.
praying to amend a bill now before the house respecting the buildir g
of an additional church In that neighbourhood.
This petition created some desultory discussion, in. which \lr.
Baring, the Chancellor of the Exchequer, Dr. Philliniore, and lir.
Ridley Colborne took a share.
Lord ALTHORP wished to know what course the Chancellor
of the llizehecem intended to pursue tomorrow in the Coma wee
of the Estimates ?
Theiaranti.os of the EXCHEQUER •haatvcd that it
was Ms Intention to mars for a vote of credit for the remainder of
. the ==inAot wishing to deli from proceeding with
i the t
- lik J. 0 by_cl LIAM gays notice .item&
Would rersist in his too.
de=ethig the 4e per cent. duds. on going iota the committee
iet
Mr:BROUGHAM, in preenning a petition from the Society
the Abolition el EL.r.ry, egoism Usnial Slavery, felt in-

1

r,

she feelicAs which pervaded the meeting at
been agrted to. At the head of these peti-
i so distinguished in his services
very. the hon. and learned member proceeded
l
in some colonies slavery 11/101 on the decline, still
not adopted in any colony as the country waW
he professionsof government, should be adopted,'
don of slavery. He considered it due to the
1, to the country, to the house, and to the crown
emendations had been neglected in the colonies ;
constituents of the house, to raise his voicel
forward this subject before the dissolution of

thought that his hon. and learned friend
discreetly, if he had reserved his observa.
came regularly before the House. When
Douglas) would be able to meet the state.
karned friend.
tpportell the conduct practised towards the
Colonies.
y observations from several Members, the pe.
table.
presented a petition from Leeds, respecting

presented two petitions from Staftmlshire,l
conduct of the Commissioners for building new

IRE presented a petition from a Mr. Row.
iing of having been discharged from the invert
been heard against the charge preferred

observed that the decision come to by the Ad.
tie charge here alluded to, had not been come to
.cliberation, and without having afforded to the
opportunity of meeting the charge.
%ORE postponed, for the present, his motion re.
of the Ecclesiastical Courts.
Lys and Means Committee was brought up,
lions by Mr. BITCH'S, complaining of the
talon made in the duties of the West India and

sugars, which the West India interest felt in no way
obliged to his Majesty's government,
Mr. FERGUSON 'felt much for the distress of the West
India planters, at the same time there were other parts of his Majes.
tr. dominion, • which required protection. The produce of the
Lastindies should be equally as much encouraged as that of any
other part of the British dominion.; and under such circumstances
he hoped that the House would riot consider that the 'eduction
made in the East India sugar duties was too much.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER defeneed the pro.
posM reduction of duties, and denied the hardships of which the,
on. member for Bristol complained.
General HASCOYNE accused the Chancellor of the Exchequer
of inconsistency in his plans respecting the sugar duties, and still
. entertained hopes that the right hon. gentleman might be induced to
make a further reduction in the West India sugar duties.
Colonel DAVIES was rather surprised that the Chancellor of the
. Exchequer did not at otree, after the decision of the house a few
• nights ago, make a reduction of 7.. per cwt. on sugar. It would
come with better grace thin if government were compelled to mats
such a reduction.

. Mr. H. DAVIS said a few words not audible in the gallery.
Mr. C. N. PALLMER observed that this was not only a fiscal
but apolitical question, and he therefore thought that his 11Iitjesty's
ministers might still be prevailed on to 'adopt a different view of the
question. A new feature had been lately thrown on this subject,
which would insure it a more serious consideration than it had as
yet experienced. If the duties on sugars were reduced, it would con-
. tribute to the relief of the IVest India labourers as well as the plant.
era. The Chancellor of the Exchequer should make a proportionate
reduction in the duties of the East India and West India sugars.
. As he professed to leave things as they. were, he ought to deal fairly
—leave them as they were, and not give one an interest and ad-
vntitage over another. The real way to give relief to the colonies
was to make such a reduction in the duties as would induce an in-
crease of consumption of the article fn this country. The consump-
tion of sugar in Ireland was four pounds for every individual ; in
England it was 22 pounds fur every individual. If Ireland could
have sugar proportionably as cheap as the English, would they not
consume so much of it in proportion ? The sacrifice of revenue by a
greater reduction would be made up by an increase of consumption,
combined with the benefit which the colonies would derive tram it.
He therefore hoped that the Chancellor of the Exchequer would to-
morrow night he induced to give to the colonies a real boon, by a
further.reduction. The hon. member concluded by moving that the
duty should be 225. instead of 245.
The amendment having been put,
Mr.,ItrSKISSON was of opinion that a reduction might he made
which should give an immediate relief to the planters, by icducing
a greater consumption. lie did not feel sanguine that a rtduction
of 3s. would increase the consumption. He felt satisfied that the
revenue would not suffer more from a reduction of 7s. than it would
from thatsprOposed by the Chancellor of the Exchequer. (Hear.)
—The only effect of a reduction of three shillings would be to al-
low the refiner a drawback of three shillings; it would not
tend to increase the consumption, or to benefit the planters ;
all our experience in legislation for several years went to
shew that an increase of consumption was the consequence of
a reduction of duties. The diminution of duty on molasses was not
reduced-in proportion to that on sugars. The duty on the former
•was 10s while that on the latter was 30s. If the latter was now to
be reduced to 245. that on molasses should be reduced to Bs. instead
of Ps. as proposed. He felt satisfied, that when the duties on au.
.gars expired, the sugar-holders would abide by a resolution of that
• honse. and continue to pay the duties without any Act having heed
passed on that subject. He knew that some parties concerned in
sugars had held meetings, to consider whether they might not enter
• sugars after the sth of July without payment of the duties, but Ito
misted -that* these parties would be governed by the sense of that
'house. '
Mr. BARING felt much for the distresses of the West India in.
. !crests, still he could not consult their interests without reference to
the finances of the country. The assimilation of stamps had been
Igivelt up, and he did not see how the house could recommend a
-further reduction in taxation with safety to the finances of the
iyoutitry. •
• Mr. MAHE RIX recommended a large reduction in the duties,
tits the only thing which could benefit the sugar planters and the
onsurners.
Bir. TRANT supported the greater reduction.
The house then divided, when there appeared—
For the amendment .... 23
• Against it..
Majority against the amendment....... —43
The report was then received.
• The common law fees' bill was read a second time and passed.

-T
-NN
i.;!!;1 4. to describecrie th
c petition at
. Alps the name of V
.4t to pefiting down slavery,
- 'ay, that though in si
such measures were not
ed to expect, from the
for the total suppression
colonies, to the slaves, tc
itself, whose recommend
•and above all, to the co
once more, and bring foi
parliament.
Mr. covaLits
would have acted more
tiort until the subject
that came on, he (Jr; I
mcnt of his hon. and
Mr. BRIGHT- suppi
slaves in Some British C
After some desultory
tition was laid on the sal
Mr. MARSHALL pi
Danish Claims.
Mr. LITTLETON
Lnmplaining of the cond
I hutches.
Mr. W. WHITMOT
land Milner, complainin
service, without having
against him.
• Sir G. CLERK obser
miralty respecting the ct
without mature deliber
petitioner a full opportui
Dr. PIIII.I4INORE
specting the jurisdiction
The report of the AVa
and after some observath
disproportionate recluctio
East India sugars, for w