Star.
London, England, 1812-05-09 00:00:00

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best criterion of the extellenee of any Parliament oil
Government was, the happiness of the people. Now
compare the present state of this country with what
it was in former times, and with the enslaved, impo.
%writhed, and desolated nations of the Continent ; and
it would be found that even during a period of near
twenty years war, we were increasing in prosperity
and internal happiness : that we enjoyed a state of
political happiness unexampled in the history of the
world. This statement afforded-prima facie evidence.
in favour of things as they are, against things as they
would be._ He was no alarmist at the idea ofinnova-
tion ; but hi conceived that in all changes, it was fit
to examine the evil to be removed, and then to see
how much evil would arise from the means adopted
to remove it. This was the true mode of discussing
the present question. If any man doubted of the suc:'
cess of this plan, such person ought to oppose it. As
to the opinions of the people, he asked what estimate
could be formed of them, when the people passed
over in apathy the destruction of whole armies a few
months after they had been canonizing the discoverer
of female influence in the disposal of Military Com-
missions.—(Hear, hear!) —lt was said, among other
things, that a Reform in Parliament would check
the expenditure of public money. He could silt t see
how a Reform would alter the financial state of the
country ; and he must say, there never was a popular
Assembly that laboured more to correct public abuses
than the present Parliament, in the present times.—
Look at the Parliaments in King William's time, and
those triennial Parliaments too, and the grossest cor-
ruptions would be discovered to have existed then.
The eyes of intelligent men in that House were al-
ways vigilant in finding out abuses, and no Assembly
that ever existed was so free from them. With respect
to what his Honourable Friend had said of the enor-
mous evil of the influence of the Crown, this was cer-
tainly the great evil he had to complain of. Yet he
saw nothing in it that should incline him to a Reform
in Parliament. Besides, the influence in question
was so extensive, that it operated more on the Consti-
tuent than on the Representative Body. There was
scarcely a family who dii not look up to some emo-
lument from the influence of the Crown—who did
not expect something from the Treasury—some small
rivulet from the great ocean, to fertilize their indi-
vidual spot. It had been asserted, that if there was
a Parliamentary Reform, all cornipt influence would
,be done away. It would produce the very reverse,
because theelectors were under more influence than the
Representatives. In the city of London there were 10 or
12,000 electors, yet three of the Members of the City
had voted that the Walcheren Expedition was a good
thing. Now would it be said that the whole City of
London ought on that acceuot to be disfranchised ? A
House of Commons ought to speak the sense of the
people, not fi om day to day, but from period to pe-
riod ; and he did not think it would be found' that
the House of Commons had ever, for a long time
together, opposed the•will'of the people. But it was
not to be subject to daily changes, in compliance
with the wavering opinions of a populace ; if so, it
would be subject to all the dangers of a democracy
--(Hear, hear),—which every ',lend to the ceun:ry
should wish to avoid. In case cf such a reform, a
perpetual bounty would be held out for turbulence 1
of every kind; and there was so evil he should more
deprecate, than that of bringing the talents cf the
country, in perpetual collision with the most power.
I ful and vigorous part of the.population. When he
!coked round in that House, he saw a body very
differently constituted from e hat a 'House new-mo-.;
delled by new changes would be. Wi.h all its de • 1
feels, he saw in it the greatest talents, virtues, and
'learning. He saw men who had cultivated their
minds, and whose morals were of the first kind ; and
these' men got into Parliament through the very
means the reformers cried out against so much.—
His great objection to any change was, thin it wauld
Admit a principle, that a thing which had been found
practicably good ought to be altered. To the breach'
thus forrne.l, all that was bad in the country would
immediately rush. Ile didnot believe that the peo-
ple of the country signified any wish for this change.
The people of Scotland asked for no reform ; and
they were not very backward at any time in calling
out for what they wanted. Ridiculous as was the i
Constitution of the Scotch Burghs, he could not kind
a single Scotchman who wanted to have them" over-
thrown. And, he believed, the Constitution of i
Scotland would continue to diffuse happiness over 1
the country, when all the pigeon-holes of the Abbe
Sieyes should be held in execration. There wet C ine.!
deed moderate reformers—but let •them go to any
meeting in Palace.yard, and there 'they would find
their 'moderate plans scouted with contempt. His.
Hon. Friend's moderate plan had been treated in
'hat way by Mr. Roscoe, of Liverpool, who stated
in a book of his, that every householder ought to
have a vote. There could not be a more fatal error
than to concede points merely on the ground of their
being fine in theory. ln all times, the persons ruling
the State had to contend with things set up by fee-,
'Sous men. 'We had a great struggle to make; and
the country ought to stand, not on petty compere.
:Mises, but on the great basis of our ancient. usagen.
If the Members of that Home should once mate
~.the acknowledgment that they were . not the COM:
mons representing the People of England, the par
ties to whom that was conceded, would require still
further concessions.. A truce might be made ; but
there could be no peace. There could be no concor-
dat by which the parties could mutually enter the
churches of each other. From that moment the
House, by giving a little, would. lose all its power,
-and the parties depriving them of the same would
.not regard their fate a single hour.—(!Year, hear.)—
If under that Constitution, in behalf of which the
Russells and the Cavendishes had shed their blood—
that Constitution which the peat men of that day.
deemed to be sufficient for the preservation of the
country, and which was now handed down to us
the same as it was made by them, he could get no
Fthedy for this alledged evil, he was contented to
this inconvenience, so comparatively small,
'e enjoyment of its many blessings so compara-
tively great.
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT felt, after the elabo-
iate speech of the Right'lion. Gentleman, much dis-
trust in supporting the motion, which, however, he
must consider as being founded on true constitutional
doctrines. They bad been tolxl, that if the House were
more popular, it would be agitated by every gust of
popular opinion : and they. were also told that its
great merit consisted' in resisting that potier. On

the part chili people of Engine!, however, be most
lay in one great claim of right to a awaits the Go,
vernment, and that • right depended on their .Repre-
:oilman in Parliament. Instead oLahis being the
case, that power was lent to those Members who were
in the habit of representing the rotten boroughs,
which they had very properly so denominated.—
He never could allow that doctrine to be Constitu-
tional that twelve or fourteen thousand persons at
most should return a majority of Members to that
House. Rather than this. oligarchical measure should
-be continued, he would be glad to see the Crown des-
potic at once. All his opinions on this subject of Re-
form had been founded on the old. Statute Laws
and even Judge Blackstone said, that the Parliament
was compounded of King, Lords, and Commons, and
that the people had the undoubted right of fairly
and freely electing the latter. This he would main-
tain, however violent a Reform it might be stated to
be, was true constitutional doctrine, not acted upon
at the present day. He might be accused again of.
using violent language, but he did not use so strong
as Blackstone, whom, he was afraid, would himself
have been considered as a very violent person at this
day. He (Sir Francis). did not consider the Great
Charter as altogether obsolete, though it had been
mu i. infringed upon by modern statutes. He would
argue on it, and c, ntend, that Magna Charta was one•
of- the dearest birthrights of Britons. He found by
a Statute of Edward 111. that the people were to have
a fair representation and annual Parliaments, and
hi fOund, in Statute after Statute, the fair represen-
, Cation of the prop* in Parliament and the power
of these Representatives to grant the taxes. all of
which this Boronghmongering system always denied.
A charge had already been brought against the re-
formers, that they.were never all of the same opinion;
the thing was impossible to find a number of persons
of the same opinion ; and indeed they knew that, on
the sending abroad of armies, the Ministers • them.l
selves could not agree, nor could they plan expedi.l
Lions of any kind without differing very much in opi-
nion. According to Fortescue, it was the great ex-
cellence of our laws that they were madi by that
-which he calls the common consent of the realm.—
i3ut now there was no such thing known as that corn.
mon consent in the country. The late Mr. Windham
said, the whole nation was corrupt, f,cm the highest
-to the lowest ; and at that time he complained of the
undue influence of mea in power. He said. that this
influence gave to Ministcrs the only power they had
of carrying on the Government, hy insuring them of '
* majority. When reforms were refused on public
abuses, and when it came to the last push, our ances,
!tors were wont to draw their %words, and force the Mo-
narch to that restitution of their rights which they had
in vain petitioned for. Several of our Kings had been
-dethroned in this way ; and one of the specific
charges against King Richard the Second, was his
using undue influence over the Commons. The fair
representation of the people in Parliament was the
only check they, 'could have on the Crown itself. He,
could not conceive why Gentletnenopposite should
impute to-him bad motives for his conduct ran such
occasions. IThat interest could be have in pursuing
any bad system equal to those whir would put the
.public money in their pockets, and it they old not
wish thas:any dislionolu able motives should be im-
puted to them, they should at least, allow him some
credit for his intenriens being full as good. So far
was he frcm being a reformer of a captious cast, that
any reform, however smell, was sure of having his
humble assistance. It had been said that in former
times there was no thought of Parliamentary reform.
Was it necessary to remind them, diet just after the
Revolution, the Tory party, whose opinions he held,
declared it to be necessary ? Their opinion was that
I great• power should be trusted to the .King by prero-
gative, as it ought to be, for the purpose of carrying
I op the Government
.; at the same time taking care to
demand a fair representation. Had th never heard
of Lord Halifax declaring even then that reform in
Parliament was necessary ? nor of the Earl of De-
vonshire, who obj.:cted to passing the Triennial Bill
Thete was nothing, in his opinion, more dangerous
fur giving unlimited power to the Crown than that
corrupt union between:it and the House of Commons.
If they looked at the passing of the Septennial Act,.
! it would be fe—und like all other had Acts, set forth
eve matter of necessity ; and only a temporary Mee.:
sure, on the ground of the existence of a Popish plot
in the country. He hoped he needed not to remind
the House of tbe opinion expressed by Lord Chat.
r' ham, that if Parliament did not reform itself Irons
within, it would be reformed from without with a
vengeance. He would ch .Menge any man in the House
to controvert the necessity which there absolutely is
of es ery now and then reforming the abuses which
crept into Governments,Or when they fall into decay.
-;--An Hon. Gentleman said, that a desire for a Re-
form did not generally prevail in the Country, be-
I.cause such desire had not been expressed in Scotland;
but he thought the silence of the people of Scotlafid
en this subject a strong reason for the House to in-
-itt;re whether a reforrnecfßepresentation of that part-
rot a Kingdom was not, at the prewnetime parti-
eslTriy desirable, because all the world knew the,
Anal tyranny which was exercised by Bonaparte in
iFrance, while the people not only refrained from ut-
• tering their complaints, but some were abandoned'
epough to declare themselves-and their country in a-'
prosperous situation. His object was, not to !Nome'
a :violent Reform, as was sometimes represented, but
to restore the Constitution to its origieal purity, and
thereby establish the natural means of our naticmall
defence, he native strength of the Country. At
present, we, at a great expense, maintained a stand.
mg army to protect us from-foreign invasion, -and
riots at home, but he was sorry to say, that, whale
we did so, we preserved no means of defence against
our protectors. In former times, the attempti of the_
`Crown to influence the determinations of Parliament
were successfully resisted; but in our times, the Mi-
aisters of the day had contrived to manage Parlia-
ment in a much more easy way than had been at-'
tempted by King James the Second.—( Hear, 1084
—For his own part, he would wish the Crown to re-
tain its just prerogative, but he condemned .he un-
constitutional influence *of wicked Ministers. He
wished the Crown to resume its former privilege of
withholding writs for the election of Representatives,
for rotten boroughs.— (Hear, Iseardsear.)—Gentlemed
might cry Hear, but they could not decoy such a
power to be vested in the Crown. One main ,objec-,
tion which had been stated aitainst a Reform was,
that if dose Dom& were minded from Veotiog

Representatives, men of great political talents
be excluded from sitting in that House. But
no reason for coming to that conclusion,
could prove, by history, that men of the c
talents had been Representatives in Parliament,
the mode of election was most pure, and
presentatives spoke the sense of the repre.
Were the same system to be again recur
should enjoy the same effect, instead of
sent, a few pusillanimous wretches, who

danger them-selves, crying up iuternvnable
the disinterested part of the community.
horrors, and were unanimous in their desire
Lord MILTON said, the Honourabl
had aigurd this suhject with his usual Ct.
but he never, when he spoke of the good oh
condescended to mention the.reign in rerich
stitution was at its acme of perfectien. '
dient he had hit on of allowing the King
writ to whatever Boroughs he pleased, %a
pletely formed for raising despotism on the wreck cf
the Constitution. He contended, that Parliament
was as pure now as-ever it had been ; and Ire conjured
the House to pause, before it over turned the Parka.
mentor), Constitutien of the country.
Sir SAMUEL KOMILLY expressed his surpesel.
at the arguments of the Noble Lord, and declared a...
had long thought reform necessary as a means of.'
diminishing the influence of the Crown. With re.
spect to the proposition of his Honourable Friend,
for adding Copyholdcrs to Freeholders, and.to, lake
the elective franchise from the Electors- Al Close,
Boroughs, and give it to the Counties, he thcueeet •
was so fair and equitable that the HOUSe could not ;
object to it. It would be recollected, 1;:.d copjeukt •
estates were in effect the same as freeholds. •
Mr. DAVIES GIDDY was not inclined to offer
many observations upoq the motion, as ie had bees
discussed much more eloquently than he could die
ceps it. The Object of those who contended id sup.
port of the motion, was to make the Parliament a
democratic cow ; but he would defy any of the Gen. .
tiemen supporting the rroposition to strew him Mac
such a mode of representation would be better than .'
a mixed form of Government. Hp could syn3paddat
as much as the Honourable Baronet could do with
the situation of the people at present. But the peer . ,
posed alteration would not benefit the COnstitetioaL ,
Such an assembly, coupled as it would be by 60 ;
fancies of a variety of persons, or as was once sass
pressed by an Honourable Member, " composed 4,1.
the worst materials—the base pander of •the wont, ~
passions of the people," would never amalgam., ..
with the other branches of the Legislature. If ail ..,
semblies of this description did exist, it must be aem ..
distance from the metropolis, surrounded andinim...
guarded by an armed force ; for they would Mom .
likely be apt to indulge opinions that the King esiC .
' a cypher. The present state of representation was .
the very perfection of the Constitution, and compee
tent to all useful and necessary purposes. A demo..
,erotical one would absorb the other branches. Could
i it be said that Westminster would be worse nine; ~
Seated if it were less democratic ? Conceiving rite' . '.
no, practical benefit would be. derived to the weeny
from an alteration in the system of election, he should
oppose the motion.
Mr. GOOCH concurred with those who thought.
the question one of the most vital importance. If the ~
proposition was acceded to,- the result mio'bt be at.
companied by total ruin to the country. He saw no
1 good whatever that could arise from adopting it.
'There never was a time in the annals of the coittere ..
when a greater mass of honour, of integrity, A 4%,
were combined in this House. He diatielhilk.
the voice of the people ran counter of the opidanfl.
Parliament ; at least, he could find nothing like kit; .
.his intercourse with his neighbours, the i . .
of the county which he had the honour to
'They were honest husbandmen, and he thou t them
as fully entitled to credit as the constituents old*
Honourable baronet, whom he used to meet at the
Crown and Anchor, and the King's Arms, in Pse •
lace-yard, and who, when other trades failed them.
'set about manufacturing speeches and patriots.ee
'Near, hear, and laughter.)
Mr. WHITBREAD was anxious to deliver lii-:'
opinion on the present question, although he had deal
so frvuently before, and would contiuue te do it to'
the end of his political career; for he was every dal, .
more and more convinced of the necessity of a Par.
liamentary Reform. The Honourable Member wlio. .
had just sat down had told them, contrary to the ge.
neral opinion, that the voice of the People was not in
opposition to the decision of this House ; and,this he.
had learnt from his intercourse with his neighbours
and constituents. He should, however, have treated .
in a more decorous manner the constitueuu of an H. 1
nourable Baronet, who might be considered as- tits .
most enlightened body of electors—(rigru ofa•Mile•
hatiat)—he maintained that the inhabitants of thaws..
tropolis Were fairly entided to that distinction.' val. •
were not to be called a rabble.—( fire Mr. Gael AP'
oiled the exprenion.)—The Honourable M. (MG' .
' Whitbread) continued :—He might not have ased die ,
_impression, but he had represented them as manufaib.. •
qirers of speeches and patriots, Tire ticsaue# • •,.
Member then adverted to the arguments of his no.
nourable Friend (Mr. Ward and to the numerous .
Motives, however absurd in lees, ihiclebe bat
' attributed to the Reformers ; he would not,4f h:i .7:
-ever, dwell much on ,his speech, in hopes
having his vote. A Noble Lord (Lord•Mprdistonalnit ..s,
satisfied with resisting the motion, had ea
distrust of all those who supported 7.1
Lee cause c.,
ofsontha. tbeininfgacctonsithoreredmenaswthheo
itermssifrecm .
.:,
sotiveße:loosurrnadlie
lam
very
peopsoppleieLc(oNuearld is,o,leurerfrai.
haernfrosn eoloolamirbizr
.-
tended that the liberties of the people would be "
ger, if they were so readmitted to their just oho*.
`the Conetitution—(liter, hear.) The Hosi '
man then adverted briefly to different L, '''
the speakers on the other side. He admiclad !W.
some men of great talents and integrity had bawl° ' t
to the House by Boroughs, but he begged of
Ids '1
e 411.
consider the difference of weight attached to tits
441,;);
II llaen representing populous districts. 14s• '11,57.
AMID had occasionally represented boroughs. P*
estssidered it as the height of his ambition to .
Norwich or Norfolk. He believed the lass NI"
sp
for Cambridgeshire, the present Teller of the
quer, felt precisely is the same way. la
was a natural Parliamentary *lingo aid
preferred being considered as Repo
people titan as delegates from a po •

.

.

- .

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because he
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incurred as 11
le war, while I"
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ble
cor.sistency ;
old state*,
ich the Cc.a.
The exile.
I to send his
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