Star.
London, England, 1831-08-15 00:00:00

N°. 13,861.

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, Atm. 13.
At about half-past twelve o'clock the SPEAKER took
his seat.
Mr. ROSS rose to present a petition, numerously and
respectably signed, from some part of Scotland, com-
plaining of the loss of so much of the time of this house
by the frivolous and vexatious opposition to the progress
of the bill.
The SPEAKER put it to the honourable member, whe.
thee he did not perceive that enough of the petition had been
mated. to show that it ought not to be presented to the
house. (Hear.) He put it to the house, once fur all, whe-
ther It would not be better for hon. members to refrain from
'll=2to resat petitions which contained language
1 net be sold in this bone:
Lit. lON twiatntad to with4taw the petition, Ample&
that being but a young member be thought it was his
to lay it before the house. The kpm member then
a petition from the gentry. ship owners, af
Bangor, and Cantavene, praying the house to aveaLlibs
duties of marine inaurasele.--Ordered to lie On dial MYs
and to be printed.
Mr. CHOICER referred to two letters which be had ad-
verted to last evening in the discussion respecting Belgium
and Holland, and stated that &misunderstanding was abroad
as to the sources from whence he derived the contents of
those letters. He begged to state, that one of them be saw
in the Standard, and the other in the Morning Pod. He
mentioned this, because as every thing in this house ob-
tained great publicity, it was desirable that no mis.state-
ments should be made out of doors.
Mr. O'CONNELL admitted that every thing relating to
Hoeard was correctly reported, but the affhirs relating to
Ireland did not obtain equal publicity.
Mr. HUNT observed that a journal that had been seve-
ral times mentioned by the right hon. gentleman, (Mr.
Croker), last evening, had to-day returned the compliment,
by giving the right hon. gentleman credit for fairness, can.
dour, and " all that sort of thing."
The petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. HUNT rose to present a petition from the township
of Sutton, iu the county of Chester, against the Corn Laws.
The honourable member said it was one of three petitions
which It was his intention to have presented last night, but
upon presenting one of them it was rejected. He obould
not read this petition, but leave any improper lanms if
any there was, to be picked out by the noble lord op ite
(Lord Althorp) or the hon. member for Oxford (Sir R.
Inglis.) His own opinion was that the petition was re-
spectfully worded. It was strong language, but not
offensive.
Sir R. INGLIS begged to say, it was the duty of every
member who intended to present a petition to be able to sa.
tidy himself and to satisfy the house, if necessary; that there
was nothing unbecoming in Its language.
After a few words from Lord Althorp, Mr. D. W. Har-
vey, and Sir C. Burrell, the petition was read, and ordered
to lie on the table.

Mr. HUNT then presented a petition from two parishes
in 3lanchester to the same effect. It was ordered to lie on
the table.
Mr. HUNT said, if the question of the corn laws was
not settled by the motion which it was his intention
to seb-
mit to the house upon the subject, he should immedletery,
the day after, bring the matter before the house in another
shape. He saw the di/position of the house was such, that
his motion would be lost by a large majority. A large
majority of that house consisted of extensive landowners,
who thought the question of keeping up their rents de-
pended upon It. (Cries of No.) That, at any rate, wail
his opinion on the subject. The honourabti member for
Wiltshire had said that wages would then be reduced. His
(Mr. Hunt's) opinion was very different ; and while he had
petitions to present be would do so independently of the
lion. member or his opinions. He held in his hand the
original petition from the county of Wilts in 1815, signed by
21,000 individuals. when that bill had passed the Commons,
appealing to the House of Lords to protect them from the
rapacity of she Commons. It had now been brought back
to him, and after laying for • certain time in the musty eel-
lars of the house, was sold :o bins for half a ezown as • cu-
riosity.—The petition was ordered to be printed.
Alderman WOOD presented a petition from the beer.
venders of Gloucester, praying that they might not be inter-
rupted in their trade; also a petition from the inhabitant
householders of that place in favour of the B:er Bill.
Mr. Al OST Y N presented a petition from the High She-
, riff and Grand Jury of the county of Flint, against the use
of mnlse•es in distilleries and breweries.
Mr. COURTENAY moved for a return of all pensions,
subsisting in Scotland and Ireland in November, 1830,
stating their amount and the time when they were granted-
, After a few words from Mr. HUNT,
Mr. JAMES wished to make a few observations respect.
ing the arrangements for the ensuing coronation. That ce-
remonial, he understood, had already been agreed upon; and
he wished to know from his Majesty's ministers what sum
of money government intended to expend upon it. He
trusted he would be excused for stating that it would, in his
opinion, have been much more proper, much more parlia-
mentary, and much more constitutional, that government, '
before fixing upon the ceremonial, had come down to that
house, and eoqiiired of the representatives of the people!
whether it was their wish to go into the expense that would
attend on the coronation. (Cries of ". Oh, oh.") If hon.
members differed in opinion from him, they would have an
opportunity of stating it. He had heard it was intended
to spend 50.0001. on that ceremony; and if that were the
proposal the country might expect that the real cost
would not he less than 120,0001. He recollected that
the original grant for a former coronation was 100,0001.
and the total expense amounted to nu less a sum than
nearly one quarter of a million, the exact suns being 238,0001.
The hire of the jewels alone for putting into the crown, cost
the country G;eoiXll. and they were kept fur four years at an
annual tapes'', of ten per cent. charged by linen.. ituntlell
and Bridge. Now lie, for one, would say that there was no
necessity for a comeatioo at all--(hear, hear)—unless it were
to afford hie Illajepty an opportunity, as tie hail heard it
stated, of creating fifty or one hundred new peent,-Iu order
to pass the Returns Bill—(loud_ cries of hear, tear)—and
thou he should nut object to it. But his Majesty had now
full possession of die throne—lie had taken the oaths, and
no additional security or sanction was required to insure tbo
discharge of his important function,. In ancient timessuch
a ceremonial might have been neueseery as a solemn compact
between the Inestarch and his people.. But those days bad.
pursed away, and no such ceremony was now requisite.—
Be believed his Majesty did not wish that any such costly;
ceremony should take place. His present Majesty was sot
like the late .Kitee, fond of nothing but show. (boud cries
of No, no.) nne felt sorry to indulge in any language
with respect to the lace KiNg which was nut approved of
by the house, but it war a matter of bietoty that his
late Majesty was so. He had so good an opinion of the sense
and.stiong mind of his present Majesty, as to feel certain
that pomp and display was what he disliked. By his con-
duct en the reform bill he had ensured the love and affection
of his subjcede and he thought he might justly say of his
Majesty, as had been said of Alfred, that he had secured •
reputation which would never decay,. while there was an
English heart to feel, or an English tongue to speak his
praise. He could not bring himself to believe but that hi.
Majesty had too much sympathy for his people to put them
to expense iri an empty pageant. He thought, therefore, hie
Majesty's Al inieters were not altogether tineorthy of ame
in luoing advieed a Coronajon.ut the present s.ate of the
country. He would not say any thing fuoher, but merely
conclude by asking what suds of money it was proposed to
expend at the peewit Coronation. He thought $f his Ma.
jut y a ministers bad conic tu ehat house, and sliced for the
money, it would have been much more constitutional, than
afterwards calling on the country to pay the debt.
• Lord ALTHORP said that it would have been uncan-
atitntional to have taken die espinies of the hone* upon the'
!um to be expeoded, as 'hitt. pap enc. of the prerogatie.s of
the crown. (Hear.) The hon. gentleman had also said the'

'

•
coronation ought not to aka place, the King having taken
the oaths; in that fact the lion. 'member was mistaken ; the
King bad not Mien the auhs which by the act of Pella.
ment were fired to be taken at the sorseation, and it eras:
therehrs essentially necessary that that Important ceremony
should take place. With regard to the steam of the
etwonstion. be (Lord Althorp) kgried with thehon..menliter;
that the hire of the jewels was ostsomely eatravagant. At
the present moment it was impossible fork* to give any
definitive answer to the boa. member, bat-this* be would
say, that he was perfectly satisfied that KS aopetwe of the
iworeet aormsadon would not be mote shad one Mh of the
'spume of the last. (Hear.) He trusted that information
_
, weld be stibleuteri to the tau
Mr. JAMKS having recsir
doe, ' aebdtee.
to beet

lapin

he Wu Wit s►.
iscsardfuriol4lo
Ilia PIA ithatLi

I die boas.-

now encumbered it. (Crles of hear, and ob i)
Mr. HUNT said be coalition no wombat In diet %luso
who were the representatives et the people exempt the beel.
Sleighs: fire Preston (Mr. Jobe Wood) and hit sett' (Loud
lirefOter.) With respect to the Coronation, be melt not
101111theirre, that when the hoe. member for Carlisle (Mi.
W, Japisid was blaming the late King for hitextrampner.
he, tolled to order; but when he praised the pens*
Leg nothing of that kind took place. He wished tit their'
whsellsethe present King was not as much attaeheitto the
\Valves eiataistration, when It was in existence, as be
"ahoy to the present administration.
Sir H. HA RDI NOE would not say whether his Fagot
'Majesty was more or less attached to the late or present ad-
ministration ; but he begged to observe, in answer to the ob-
servations made by an hon. member (Mr. GiUon) that such
pert and flippant remarks would always meet with his most
enter contempt. (Cheers from the-opposition.) He was as
much an independent member of gbh house now, that be sat
for what is called a nomination borough, as he was when be
sat for the city of Durham.
The !kismet. of CH A NDOS wished to know what was
the intention of his Majesty's Ministers with regard to th'
sitting of the house at the time.eflhe Coronation, and with.
tber there was to be any, and whit, adjournment. (Huse,
bear, hear.) If answering the question Ras at mast
inconvenient to the noble lord (Althorp) be should let
press it.
Lord ALTHORP said it was impossible for him at the
vomit moment to answer that question.
Mr. O'CONNELL. hoped, that by that period the heMM.,
would have arrived at the Irish nig" hill, and thaft that
would be as little delay as possible:
immix JILL.
The House then resolved itself into a committee ow the
SAM bill. Mr. Bs in the Chair.
The CHAIRMAN then rose to put the first question.
those 18, that the following counties return three member,
each, vie. Berkshire, Buthinghamshire, Cambridgeshire,
Dorsetshire, and Herefordshire.
Mr. BANKES said he did not intend to propose an ad-
ditional member for the county with which he was connected
(Dorsetsbire) ; any boon that was offered he would accept ;
but at the same time that he accepted it he could not refrain
which
from making a few observations upon the pried* which
had actuated his Majesty's Ministers le granting foie .
bars for the county of Cumberialid. whilst* *l' -
three to the county of Dorset. The hon. member '
that from lists of the population, and of the tempeund houses
in each of the counties, and in ach of the represented and
unrepresented places in those counties. it was clear that al-
though Cumberland contained rather mote persons, still in
point of wealth, in the number of the lel. houses, and even
of those above 401. a-year, the county of Dorset had coital.
derably the preAminece. The house would be sWprised to
tarn those facts, and then to see that it was only intended
to give Dorsetshire three members, while a county inferior.
in importance and wealth was allowed four members. Datt.l
'net was, in fact, the only county that made out a case of
Facts injustice; even according to the principles which had
been lard down by his Majesty's Ministers. (Hear.) He-
was aware that there might be some difficulties ; but he did
not, standing on the side of the house on which he stood,
fleet himself under the necessity of always prelvidhiga remedy
foe the evils that might present themselves in the course of
this debate. It was for those whovere aptvulating in the
introduction of the plans to propose remakes necessary for
subverting the ills which without those remedies would na-
turally arise.
Sit J. GRAHAM did not think the hon. gentleman bad
acted fairly in selecting Cumberland on the present occasion,
to maks i contrast with the itate of Dorsetthirs. lie, heir-
ever, did not think the hem. member was actuated by invi-
dious motives in his selection, although he had made some,
, painful refiectione on his Majesty's ministers, which would
I have amounted, if expressed in plainer teems, to a broad
charge of partiality. The reason why the hon. gentlemen
had compared Cumberland with Dorset probably was that
Deism was the larger county to which three members wire
to be given, and Cumberland the smallest to width
Crmembers were proposed to be given. The boo. gentle.
inn bad not stated the case so fairly as lie might have done,
The population be had given was undoubtedly course'; but
be lad omitted to state what were the number of iginbees N
be returned from the counties respectively. (Hear.) It
would appear that Cumberland, under the proposed measure,.
would return eight. and the county of Dorset eleven,'
even after the alteration of four members for the ~eery.
.
of Cumberland, and three for the county of Done. 10
this way Cumberland will return only one member kir
19,000 inhabitants, and Dorset one for every IltalSi--
(Loud cheers.) It would be impossible fee elibllksalmw
able member to deny this abort strewing, end id .(11k
James) was confident that it would relieve the I
from any charge, directly or inditectly, of partiality tame
Cumberland.
Mr. BANKES regretted that the right hon. vademeg
bed taken no notice whatever of one part of his (11r.BsehWn)
' onnement, namely, that which relined to the comparative
wealth of tits two counties.
Colonel SIBTHORPE said, as be bad been alluded to ley'
the Right Hon. Genleman opposite as being a good driest*,
be congratulated Ishinelf that he was not .he driver!! die
leader of his Majesty's Ministers—if he were he theitit
drive them in a different war to the one they Were taking.,
Had he uuly the whip hand of them, though he was sure
Piney would form an extremely awkward team, yet lie should
Use his utmost awls in turning them into a different road
than the one they were taking. ( Much laughter.) He felt
it his duty, without any sort of delicary, broadly to charge'
his Majesty's Minima's with having acted 'partially. Tire
Gallant Colonel then made an observation which could net
beheard, complaining of a niter:presentation by the press of
what he had stated last nigh!
Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS was sick of hearing of ski
giving of members to this and to that county talked we as a
boon. The object of the house ought to be, to consider-
how the representation could be made in the most convenient,
and proper way. Wets he heard hon. and right limn gen.
denten opposite talk of this county having eleven members,
4
auuther tee, another eigh sod so on, he could not betel
turning his attention ta.Ws, where, in many parts, there
seas only our 'Member Tel . 10i-a
whole county. This,
however, was-not the'lltiiy ' ' diedel the representation In
such a manner is to be:eery satisfactory to people hereafter,
Looking at
~h, popiapoiler semelly, he Oweght, hie 1145.4
jesty'swaintatere -witildirog email more wisely in' givht, a
second inentber to some Of 'the Welch counties, rather then„
thrustity a third or iforuth•nreuther wow, of the Engliels'
(Aunties',' which were alesady•very well represented lb Par-'
Liman. . .
Mr. STUART WORTIAIf said the claims of Scotland
to an additiOnil repteeltuaddh Were very strong. But ash,'

thought those claims might more efficiently be urged under
a subsequent part of the bill, he would reserve his argu.
meats in its favour till that part of the bill came before the
committee. As to one part of the arrangements contained
in the clause under consideration, he would observe, if. the
house proceeded by the role of population, the only jest
way of distributing population in the counties, was to de.
duet from them that portion of population in the repreven-
tattoo already provided far. Upon this principle, u well
as ■ppaass thweest of wealth derived from the amount of the
101.Lotteeboldere, Buckingham had a stronger claim than
Dona to the privileges held out by the clause.
Mr. UILWN thought it desirable that some additional
Scotland, and that might be
of its present representatives.
the Chancellor- of the Imeht.
eras gives to Scotland, be.
cometty rr..perie hem se.
this tilauleinestati, ftput so

iNDOS wished 'to tee the Welsh

A inertial* awl onmonleadlhorm.
die third Members of minden atta
&Mend and' Wiles. He eon:
represented tlfi feelings of the peo-
ple county 4. Buckingham more truly than the
borough of Ovsed Aliziow did, and he could not see why It
was not entitled to hens two members as well as the borough
ref Wycombe. PAt bensidered that ministers were doing
no good by giving the county of Buikingham three mem-
bers, which be firmly believed would be the means of creating
continual contests, and would prevent the real opinion of the
freeholders being known. He objected, therefore, to the
grant of his Majesty's Ministers to Buckingham of an ad-
&dead member, and trusted that the Noble Lord (John
Russell) would give additional members to Wales and
*inland. He thought that the present members for Buck-
Intssufficiently represented the county.
omrd ALT HORP observed-that With respect to the present
clausehe conddeted the noblelord was roguing against blaisslL
It *is &Scat to say what was the amount of reprosen.
'tattoo that able& bit allotted to different counties. Bak "the
members for boroughs, under the present bill, would be
more likely to represent the interests of the counties than
under the system of representation now existing. In ere.
ranging the number of count members, Government bad
taken their interests into tion separately from those
of boroughs. He (Lord Althorp) did not lay much stress
on the cases brought forward, nor, indeed, could he see how
the consequences referred to by the noble lord would result
from the present measure.
The Marquis of CHANDOS felt no doubt of its having
the effect he had stated, and briefly observed, that sooner
that enter into any collision with respect to Bucks, be would
give up his own seat.
Mr. RICRFORD protested against any diminution of
the members for Bucks.

On the 'question that two members be given to the county
of Glamorgan,
Lord 11." SOMERSET said, that the increase In the
population, in the industry, the wealth, and intelligence of
the people of Glamorgan, was such as entitled them to have
an additional Member. He should support the motion.
Mr. PRAED, in rising to move a matter of which he
bad given notice, thanked the noble lord foe having post-
poned to this day the consideration of one of the clauses of
the Reform sill to which his motion would more particu-
larly apply. His object was to render the representation as
perfect as possible—not to leave it the representation of the
majority only—of a part though the greater part—but to
make it the representation of the whole.—His motion
would, therefore, be, that wherever the Bill gave three
r Members for counties, each person forming a part of the
constituent belly wooed-04y beonoirea to vett' he two out
of those three puma: He intended to move that, 'where
the right of representation gave three members, each voter
should have only two votes; and he did this for the
sake of insuring to the minority one representative--
a consequence that would not be effected till the majority
should have more than doable the minority ; because it
would not be till then that the majority would have the
power of returning the third member; while, in .he event
of the majority not being much mote numerous than the
minority, the latter would be sere of having their opinions
represented in that bodge. The hon. gentleman then went
through a very long series of the evils which his mind en-
abled him to totems as likely to arise from the passing of the
reform bill. He did not intend to divide the committee on
this amendment at the present time, but should take another
opportunfty-of so doing.
Lord A LTHORP thought that nothing but extreme cues
could support the amendment of the hon. gentleman ;
and radically, he thought such eases never would arise ; for
he believed that even in America there bid never been a
Congress without a minority in it.
The amendment was then withdrawn, and the clause
agreed to
Lord ALTHORP said, that as the hour was then neer at
band when it Was understood that the house would adjourn,
he should, before he sat down, move that the Chairman re-
port program, and ask leave to sit again; previous to which,
bowevet he would beg te call the attention of the house to some
alterations in the bill, which his noble friend, not then in his
place, to whom the care of the billwas confided, intended to
propose. The first clause to which an amendment would
be moved, was the 16th that which gave the right of voting
In counties. in addition to the freeholders, it was intended
that leaseholders of 501. per annum for seven years should
have a vote. and also thou for 101. holding leases forte°
years. The house, he trusted, would see that the alterations
were not alterations of principle, but on the contrary, would
have the effect of advaating tit :glut principle which it was
the object of the bill to establish. Some doubt arose re-
specting the inkrpretation of the bill as it stood at present
as to one point, namely, whether leaseholders were requiszd
to have a legal lease, or merely an equitable right, as in the
case of irseholden ; for, as wu known to hon. members, a
freeholder need not have what was called the legal estate
vested in him—it was quite sufliclent that he possessed
an equitable title. lo tiro Eld line of the same clause it
was also intended to introdoee an alteration, the objet of
which was to place leaseholders under copyholders spas
the same footing that' those leaseholders would stand if
they held AVM freeholders, and that an equitable right
should be valid in this ease as well as in .he other. The

91st clans, related to right of voting in boroughs. That
clause, as it stood at present, was altered intwedia•tly
after discovery was made of the error that had been coin.
mitted respecting quantify and haltlearly payments by'
householders. The clause, in its present form, gave the
right of voting to householders whose rents were payable not
oftener then once every crater ; but further inquiry had
I convinced them that the clause would have the affect of die-
franchising many very worthy to possess votes. It was 33-
certained that many persons who paid monthly, and even
weekly, were not of that disreputable description which
the framers of the bill had at first supposed ; for example,
at Manchester, and other great manufacturing places, there
were several very respectable persons who paid • their
rents oftener than quarterly, but who wete, nevertheless,
yearly occupiers, but who paid their ren:s weekly for• the-
convenience of their landlord, rather than for his se-
curity. All tenants plying weekly, must. of course,
have occupied their houses 'for a pined of twelve months'
antecedent to the time of registration. Thus .it •would
be teen that the effect of the'clsuse would be, to entree.
clam all weekly tenants, merely postpohtns the enfralehisor-
ment uhtil'a-yeat had pissed from ,he conanencemeot of
their occupancy. There was inothte'poira 'open which it
was proposed to make all alteration, namely, that persons
claiming to vote as houleholders of 101. on the pound that
they pshl ten to that MiroUtit, should show that they were
not in irlth their lindllrff; but wheat they claimed
as Implebaders, being rated to ate poor's vat or the land.
tax above the value of 101. then It was thought to bean un-
necessary interference in men's private concerns, to inquire-
whether they had paid their rent or not; it would becomes',
ihatthey had' paid'their taxes. A list of tile persons rated
above thevalwe Of 101. would 'be delivered in by theover-

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be satbdoetory til-titeiten.ussaiberandth;hOZ: representationshould I;given to
r. JANIS having received an answer to hie Boat gum- dons without spoliating Enelaad
wished ingot aonditir, which was, whether there woo He cordially cotteorW with the
artimeammedintito far ilisrudiabers of the. ream goer, a boon of Shy members a
et.dreasestodasi fa di a* es litigitt Farr. Itat rivf the
is barren of seinsorgeligrier his paw We a ppd.* ti
umber—oath than that which he 41# show* dedt . end to eemprilenlie.
hard' Ahheig roads so wawa& wp.e. . The Merging of CH ANDOI
etumi agleam "thvieitimatNim *cab Nopilersitodoe income
sass WIN at present constltetsi, ihrugillawst toss y of throwing over the third
iteakweal/ have voodoos relating to U lowa Whaling them hi *Wind
Palle* ihit to them by a tatormaid Own! sidered that no borough represen
4 whim-the house would be cleansed of the tiliicb pie in the *Mal of Bucking)
eneumbeied it. (Cries of bear, and ab borough of Groat Marlow did, a