Star.
London, England, 1822-03-08 00:00:00

T

st Britain.—Orderod.
Mr. Woouroan, from the Treasury, presented sundry Re.
turns, pursuant to the orders of the House.—Laid cat the table.
Mr. PAY= presented the Annual Accounts of the Commis-
sioners for the Thames Navigation.—Laid on the table.
The Irish Population, Regulation 13111 was read a third time
and passed. •
The Transfer in Aids BID, the Irish Arms and Gunpowder
Importation Bill, the Excheneer Bills Bill, and the Segars and
Tobacco Duty Mil, went through Committees respectively, and
the Reports were received.
The LORD CHANCELLOR introduced a Mil to amend
certain ver)sal errors which had crept into the Act of Parlia-
ment for regulating the admission of Attornies and &Sicken.—
Read a Mt time.—Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.
A Message from the Lords announced their Lordships' assent
to the Irish Population Bill.
Mr. W. DUNDAS presented a Petidon from certain indivi-
dnals, praying to be beard by Counsel against several Clauses in
the Edinburgh Police BW.—Ordered to lie, ea the table.
Mr. JONES rose to move for the production of Accounts,
on which he proposed to shew that the Salt Tax might be ad-
vantageously abandoned altogether. He moved for Accounts
of the number of Officers employed by the Excise in the superin.
ti dance and management of the Duties on Salt, the amount of
their Salaries and Emoluments, and the total amount of the nett
produce of the Tax over the same.—Ordered.
AGRICULTURAL DISTRESS.
Mr. LOCKHART rose to present a Petition from
certain Owners and Occupiers of Land of Witney, in
the County of Oxford, on the subject of Agricultural
Distress. On looking at the signatures of this Peti-
tion, he found that all classes concurred in the re-
presentations here put forth. The case they made
out was quite alarming, .and if the mischief were to
be ascribed, as he believed it had been by his Majes-
ty's principal Minister, to superabundant produce,
he thought the farmer ought at all events to be pro-
tected against foreign competitors, and the evils re-
sulting under particular circumstances froNn the im.
portation of grain. He wished such measures adopted
as would give the farmer a market, and the labourer
employment. The present distress threatened to lead
to the most serious consequences. He had been in-
formed on authority which he could not question,
that it had produced some disturbances in the County
of Norfolk, and that riots had broken out in the
County of Suffolk, which made it necessary to call
out the Yeomanry. The Honourable Member for
Suffolk would perhaps be able to state whether or
not this was true.
Mr. GOOCH was sorry to say that that part of
the Hon. Gentleman's statements which related to the
Counties of Norfolk and Suffolk was too true. Cir-
cumstances of a disagreeable nature had occurred on
the borders of the County of Norfolk, and in the
County of Suffolk disturbances had taken place,
which had made it necessary to call out a part of the
Yeomanry. He was the last man in the House who
would unnecessarily endeavour to excite alarm ; but
he was bound to admit that these facts were true.
He, however, begged to correct a statement which
had been made by the Hon. Member for the City cf
Oxford (Mr. Lockhart), on a former night, respecting
the jail at Bury, which was one of the best regulated
establishments of the kind in the kingdom, and which
was under the care of a most respectable, humane,
and intelligent person. The Hon. Gentleman had
stated, that in a jail which was built to contain 100
persons, at present 200' were confined—that of these
200 prisoners 80 were poachers. It had also been
said, that of the 80 poachers many had gone out
poaching in order that they might get taken up, and
be thus saved from starving. He had had a letter
from that respectable jailer to whom he had already
alluded, which stated, that instead of there being 200
prisoners in the jail, there were at present but 150.
For the 80 poachers mentioned, but 40 were in con-
finement, and inquiries had been made to ascertain
whether any of them had gone out to poach to escape
stat-ving, by getting themselves taken, and it had been
found that among them all there was not a single so-
bury instance of-that nature.
Mr. LOCKHART was glad to hear that the num-
ber of prisoners was not so great as he had understood
it to be, but sorry it was not smaller than it was ac-
cording to the statement of the Hon. Gentleman.
Mr, H. SUMNER mentioned a case in which the
poachers confined in a Penitentiary had been employed
in a mill. The effect was most beneficial, for it had
been stated, after a considerable time had elapsed,
that not one of those who had been so employed
ever returned to confinement.—The Petition was or-
dered to lie on the table.

Mr. GOOCII rose to present a Petition from cer-
tain Owners and Occupiers of Land on the subject of
Agricultural Distress. He was not disposed to carry
his politics so far as to be unwilling to present a Pe-
tition from any class of persons because they hap-
pened to differ from him. Ile had therefore to state
that this Petition was respectfully drawn up, and he
hoped it would receive from the House the attention
it deserved. Having said this, there were some cir-
cumstances connected with the Petition which he
wished to advert to, and some part of his own con- •
duct which he desired to explain. This Petition was
voted at a large Meeting, called by a Requisition,
very respectably signed, but it had been so managed,
that he believed not ten Freeholders, from Ipswich
to Yarmouth, knew that such a Requisition was about
to be forwarded. There was nothing in it but what all
the Freeholders, whatever their political sentiments,
might have subscribed to, he therefore did not see
why it should have been kept from persons who dif-
fered in some respects from those by whom it was
• drawn up, but such was the course pursued. When
the day of meeting arrived, he attended at Stow-mar-
ket, as did several friends of his, who lived within a
morning's ride of the place. Ten of these agreed
there with ten of the party opposed to them to draw
up a series of Resolutions, which should be so framed
that they might pass unanimously, as it was admitted
that it would be wise to keep politics out of the way
altogether. The Resolutions were drawn up, and he
thought they were going off unanimoudy, when an
indiv►dual there, of whom he had no right to com-
plain, as he was not a party to the agreement which
bad been entered into, broke in upon the arrange-
ment by moving a Resolution which went to call for
a Parliamentary Reform. Those Gentlemen who
bad come so an arrangement with his friends, se-1
coined And supported this proposition, and they then

new.
in the waggon. He was surprised at this, as ,ag
such a part was taking the County completely by
surprise. At this new Meeting the Reform proposi-.'
tion was carried. His worthy colleague, whose ab-
sence from the House he mush tegretted, would
have supported it had he been in his place, because
he, from the conviction of his honest mind, was as
much in favour of Parliamentary Reform as he (Mr.
Gooch) was opposed to it. He himself, however,
wished for Reform where it could be effected with
safety. He (Mr. Gooch) wished to guard against a
lavish expenditure—he wished to punish and repress
corruption wherever it might be detected, but he
could not go the length of calling for that alteration
in the Constitution which some thought necessary.—
He had mentioned the indisposition of his Hon. Col-
league to account for his not being there to support
the Petition, which had been carried about six weeks
for signatures, to the prayer of which, as it now stood,
he was sorry to say that he could not subscribe.
Mr. COKE said, constituted as that House was, he
had no hope that the Petition now presented, or any
other, would be attended to. The Hon. Gentleman
had told them the Meeting was very numerous, and
so he (Mr. Coke) understood it to have been ; and 1-e
could not therefore understand how the County could
be so much taken by surprise as the Hon. Gentleman
supposed. From the conduct pursued by that House,
in rejecting these Petitions, it was clear that no relief
was to be expected without a Reform in Parliament.
The plan lately brought forward by Ministers would
not relieve the landed interest. A proof of this might
be found in the price of bailey having gone down
from 4s. lid. to 4s. 6d. the bushel. The Noble Mar-
quis treated these subjects with a degree of hu-
mour, which, in consequence of a certain understand-
ing nd-
ing among them, passed off very well there; but for
the statement he had lately made, it was to him per-
fectly incomprehensible, and he could not make either
bead or tail of it. A speech which had preceded it
by a few evenings, sheaving the necessity of a reduc-
tion of taxation, was much more comprehensible
All felt that it was to a diminution of the public bur-
dens that they must look for teal substantial relist£
At present, however, to petition was useless, for the
Noble Marquis sat there ready to overturn all the
hopes of the sufferers. No relief could be hoped
for but from a Reform in that House. The plea
brought forward for the relief of Agriculture would
not suffice. He could wish the Noble Marquis and
some of his colleagues would do him (Mr. Coke) the
honour to accompany him to Mark-lane, to witness
the ridicule with which his plan was treated there.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY did not rise
for the purpose of discussing the question of Parlia-
mentary Reform. He had hoped to see the Ho.
nourable Gentleman (Mr. Coke) at present in a
better temper of mind. He did not think the Ho.
nourable Gentleman had a right to complain of not
being able to make head or tail of his plan, as he had
been of late occupied with subjects of much greater
interest I Had he been less occupied he might have
heard some good reasons for adopting the plan
which Government had brought forward in preference
to that which the Hon.Gentleinan would recommend.
The Gentlemen of Mark-lane understood their inte-
rest better than to suppose the price of corn would
rise through what was called a Parliamentary Re-
form, if public credit were not maintained. Were
taxes taken off beyond what could be spared without
injury to public credit, Mark-lane would be the first
to cry out, and to feel that it must suffer from a vio-
lation of national faith. All the interests of the
country were happily so bound up together, that one
could not be injured without prejudice to the rest.—
The motion for a Parliamentary Reform might have
been unanimously carried at a County Meeting, but
without speaking disrespectfully of such Meetings,
he must object to its being supposed that it embodied
all the deliberative Gentlemen of the County.

Mr. MACDONALD and Mr. LZNNARD rose at the
same time. The latter Gentleman was named by the
SPEAUR, but several voices called out the name of
the former.

Mr. LENNARD begged to offer a few words not-
withstanding the opposition made by the Honourable
Member for Durham.

Mr. LAMBTON begged pardon of the Speaker,
but really did not understand that the Hon. Gentle..
man had any right to allude personally to him.
Mr. LENNARD remarked, the Hon. Gentleman
bad called out another name when he (Mr. Lennard)
rose to speak.
The SPEAKER said, nothing was more common,
when more than one Member rose at the same mo-
ment, than for Members to call out the different
names. 'This was not intended to mark disrespect;
it was to be supposed that each called out the name
of the person he had first seen on his legs.
Mr. LENNARD had alluded to the Hon. Member
for Durham, conceiving him to be out of order. He
then proceeded to speak at some length on the con-
tent* of the Petition. The Petitioners repelled the
idea that any part of their distress sprung from over-
production, and were satisfied that they could obtain
no relief but by a reduction of taxes ; and he argued
that a reduction of taxes was the most desirable mea-
sure that could be adopted.
Mr.M ACDONALD said, the admirably well-timed
pleasantry of the Noble Marquis en the occasion of
the presentation of this most melancholy Petition,'
might be very satisfactory to his own mind, but he
must allow him to say, that it would not be very sa-
tisfactory to those who were attending to the pro-
gress of their deliberations out of doors. The .Noble
Marquis might taunt his Hon. Friend. the Member
for Norfolk, on his domestic affairs, but his Hon.
Friend held a place in the esteem and affections of
his constituents and the country, which the Noble
Marquis might envy, but could not claim to share.
—Most unlike himself would his Hon. Friend have
acted, if any addition to his own domestic comfort
and happiness could make him forget the distresses
of those for whom he bad never ceased to interest
himself, or alter his sentiments with respect to the
cause of them. He (Mr. Macdonald) had not heard
the whole of the speech of the Hon. Member for

.spell.
demo, which Made 'them very different when they
came there from what they appeared to be elsewhere.
He had spoken of the Meeting as having been very
respectably attended., Speaking thus he had but de-
scribed it as a mere Parish Meeting might be de.
scribed ; but the fact was, a Meeting more remark-
able for attendance of persons of importance in the
neighbourhood, and for numbers, bad never been
held in the precincts of that County. From six to
8,000 persons had been present. The lion. Member
had said, the Requisition had been carried about for
six weeks for signatures.
' Mr. GOOCH said he had described the Requisition
to have been sent round for signatures, and to have
been carefully concealed from those whose political
sentiments differed from the politics of the Gentle-
men by whom it was drawn up. It was the Petition
of which he had spoken in the terms just attributed
to him by the Hon. Member.
Mr. MACDONALD resumed. It was unfortu-
nately one of the circumstances of the present times,
that an opinion prevailed it was allbut useless to peti-
tion that House. The farmer in consequence, in many
cases, would not go a hundred yards from his own
dwelling fir the purpose of joining in a Petition. In
the County of Cambridge, but the other day, a Re-.
solution had been come to, declaring that it was in
vain to petition Parliament. The evils that oppressed
the country were not known to spring from any par-
ticular visitation 01 PROVIDENCB, and therefore it was
natural to conclude that they bad their origin in po-
litical mismanagement. But these Petitioners, it
ought to be borne in mind, had never claimed to be
relieved at the expense of any other class of their fel-
low-subjects. That which they called for was an un-
sparing, uncompromising, severe system of retrench-
ment in the public expenditure, and a proportionate
reduction of taxation. The Petition attributed the
evil to the right cause, and declared the remedy
could only be found in a reformed House of Corn.
morn, which would supply a more efficient check to
the improvidence of the Government. The Honour-
able Member for Suffolk (Mr. Gooch) had seemed to
think with the majority of the late Meeting. His
professions of a determination to call for retrench-
ment—his declarations in favour of economy, had
filled the Market-place--but having retired from the
Meeting, he soon returned to his old habits again,
-He did not know whether it was from being flattered
by the Noble Marquis, or some of his colleagues,
with the title of g, the leading Country Gentleman,"
or from any other cause, that when he got into that
House, he had at once been induced to catch at the
shilling compromise of the Chancellor of the Exche-
quer, and close the door, as far as depended on him,
against all further retrenchment. On the debate on
the Salt Tax, that abominable impost, the Hon. Gen-
tleman, with another Hon. Member who had in-
dulged in similar professions, might be said to have
perpetuated that cruel, undefended, and indefensible
tax. When he used the words, " the leading Coun-
try Gentleman," he begged not to be understood as
speaking disparagingly of that character. But if the
Country Gentlemen in that House deviated from the
course they were formerly accustomed to pursue, to
become on every occasion subservient to the views of
the Government, such conduct must eventually lead'
to the annihilation of all their importance. The Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer, the recorder of the famous
anti-depreciation Resolutions, had come down to that
House three years ago with certain Resolutions, de-
claratory of the importance of establishing a clear
Sinking Fund of five millions. That a surplus in-
come applicable to the reduction of the National
Debt was desirable, he would admit; but what had
been the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentleman ? He
who had destroyed the Sinking Fund of Mr. Pitt—
whose name be had ever been ready to glorify, had
come down to the House with the Resolutions to
which he bad adverted, after giving his sanction to a
measure which could not fail of adding to the public
burdens what was equal to ten or twelve millions—
he alluded to the resumption of cash payments.—
What did the Honourable Member for Suffolk do oa
that occasion? When the Agricultural Horse Tax
came before the House he did not remember that he
had differed from the majority of the House, but he
had some slight recollection that the Honourable
Member had made use of a homely, good, country-
gentlemanlike phrase, " that they could have no
more of a cat than her skin." Now the Honourable
Gentleman caught at the shilling on malt as the one
tiring needful, as the only thing necessary. He
wished him to look to the various sources of ex-
pense—to the state of the Civil List, to the salaries
given, the pensions granted, and doing this, he had
no doubt he would find it possible for a willing Go-
vernment, besides giving up the Malt Tax, to give
up the duty on salt: aye, and even the leather, and
soap, and candle duties also. But the Honourable
Gentleman believed that Ministers could not do this.
Why did he believe it? Because they told him so.
In the same way they had formerly told him that
they coal not go on without the Property 'fax.--
This, however, had been given up, as he believed it
was found that the country could not go on with it.
Then it was said that they could not do without seven
Lords of the Admiralty ; but the House the other
night had very unceremoniously taken away two of
them, and now it was seen that Ministers were pre-
paring to go on with five. So, if the House chose
to make similar reductions in other establishments,
it would be found that Ministers would still be able
to carry on the Government of the country; and
those attached to them need not feel the slightest
alarm from an idea that they would give up their
places. He begged pardon for troubling the House
so long. It was alwa) s more agreeable to him to hear
what others said than to speak himself ; but on the
present occasion he thought it necessary to state what
he had offered to the House. The present evils he
traced to that fatal measure, the Bank Restriction
Act of 1797. The remedy on which the llouse must
in-
creased consumption
duty
to keep aniadi
fix its eye was that which would meet the evil, by in-
faith the nilitr

- Ho.
nourable Member for NOrfolk with any disrespect.—.
He bad thought the Honourable Gentleman had made
a good-humoured attack on that plan which' he had
brought forward. It would have been difficult for
him to answer seriously, without going into a Wide
field of argument, and he had, therefore, wished to
repel the attack with the same good humour in which
it had been made, while briefly stating why he could
not concur in the view taken of this subject by the
Honourable Gentleman.
Mr. GOOCH said, after the number of vhargee
which had been preferred against him, he hoped be
might be allowed to make some reply,
The SPEAKER remarked, the question noiv wat,
that the Petition should lie on the table, If the Hon.

Gentleman wished to move that it should be printed",
he could speak at any length on that question. If
he objected to make such a motion, the House would
probably deviate from the usual course, and permit
him to reply.
Mr. GOOCH said be would move that the Peti.
tion should be printed.
The Petition, which complained of Agricultural
Distress, prayed for a reduction of Taxes, and Parlia-
mentary Reform, was ordered to lie on the table.
Mr.GOOCH rose to move that it should be printed.
Charges had been preferred against him, as if he had
committed some great political crime. He had been
spoken of as it he had pledged himself to vote for the
repeal of particular taxes. He had done no such
thing. He had said that he was as anxious as his
Hon. Friend could be to vote for the repeal of all taxes
that could be taken off consistent with the public
safety, and good faith to the public creditor. The
Hon. Member said, he had brought this Petition for-
ward earlier than the usual hour for public business.
While he was absent that day, his name had been
called over by the Speaker. On his entering the
House it was called over a second time, and then he
presented the Petition, rather sooner than he other i% ise
should. It was said that the People of England
were convinced of the necessity of an immediate Re-
form of that House. He believed that the People
were misled out of doors, and induced to take up
this opinion; but the opinion of the community at
large was widely different. It was asked who would
now petition that House ? and it was said the farmer
would hardly go a hundred yards for that purpo-e.—
Yet in the same breath they were told how numerously
the late Meeting was attended—eight thousand i er-
sons having been present. For his genes al conduct
in Parliament, he had only to say, he wanted no in-
structions from the Hon. Gentleman. So lung as the
people of Suffolk were pleased to send him to that
House, unshackled, as they had hitherto sent him, he
would perform his duty. The lion. Member for Nor-
folk had talked of the pleasing measures of the Noble
Marquis, as if these led those who voted with Minis-
ters to lay aside their judgment. This reminded him
of a foolish incident which had occurred a few days
ago. He happened to be shooting with a gartieke2per
a few days back, who had a dog with him winch
suddenly broke away and pursued a hare. This nas
a great fault, as every Gentleman who %sent shoo ing
well knew. But the game k:eper, however, fou it
excusable, remarking—., W.:y r.O know, Sir, a hare
is the most enticing of vermin al the vor d, xc in a
woman--(A laugh).—He supposed the Hon. Gentle-
man would be inclined to add, and es cept the Noble
Marquis and the Chancellor of the Exchequer"—
(Laughter).—The Petition was ordered to be printed.

POST OFFICE REGULATIONS.

Mr. HUME said, that he would not detain the
House long with the motions whiCh he was about to
submit. He had already shewn them to the secre-
tary of the Treasury, for the purpose of ascert:
whether there could be any subjection to their • pro.
duction? Not finding that any objecti.ni won ba
made, he would not detain the House bs more • than
one or two remarks. It appeared that the char ge for
management of the Post Office amounted to 617 'AO/.
and when such a sum was paid, the House our ;:it to
be informed of all the particulars of its applicat on.—
The sum which he had just mentioned was inor• than
half the whole entire revenue of that establish-
ment. It was his intention to have submitted t mo-
tion respecting the number of Postmasters, bt it the
notice which the Noble Lord (Normanby) hid rivm
having the same object, it would be unnecessai -y fur
him to trouble the House on the subject. In all; rding
to the Post Office, he begged to be understood is not
objecting to the general arrangements of that cis •part-
ment—they were such as reflected great credit m the
Gentleman (Mr. Freeling) who directed them. 'There
was one regulation, by which newspapers wet • se:::,
free of pcstage, to all parts of England, Scotian i, and
Ireland ; but this indulgence did not extend t o the
Colonies—for the Post Office charged for tralssmit-
ting a daily paper, the whole cost of which was net
more than nine pounds, the sum of 51.55. They
charged 41. 4s. for a paper published. three days a
week, and 21. 2s. for a weekly paper. These sums
were not paid in as a part of the public Revenue, but
collected and paid into a separate office as fees,
which were afterwards distributed among the clerks.
Now, he objected to this on two grounds. In the first.
place, he thought that the remuneration of the clerks
in Public Offices ought to be by fixed salaiics, and
not by fees; and next, he considered, by loading a
newspaper with such heavy duties, a check was given
to their circulation, and thereby a great limitation to
the consumption of stamps. He had it from very
good autitotity, that if this tax were taken off, the
circulation of newspapers in our Colonies would be
increased by one-half, a most important consideration
in point of revenue. Besides, he thougin the Colonies
ought to be placed on the same footing with Englan.lv
Scotland, and Leland ; and, when it was considered
that the packets only carried letters and newspapers,
she increase on the number sent would be no incon-
venience. Another point which he thought worthy
the consideration of the House was, that regulation.
by which the foreign papers were ne trly excluded.
A French paper, the price of which andially did not
exceed 72 francs, or about £3, would c Ist the person
who received it through the Post OtEc: lurk, a Will

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r him, and skenid ito insubordination produced by distress on the pan
The Marquis of Inwetans tool the oaths and his seat as off petkfonieg for a eform in . .t, and he that Mellon. Friend Wilk to stsaie !.threetened serious disturbances from the disposition
Baron Kass. thereforebslievathat the be ifili itir could do was 'pecans himself. Ha wished*
The Bishop of EXETER moved for Copies of all the Res,-y,. j:...'" A.. the geeing.. He (91r. Gooch) and the few have been happy to cooratillate hitn on his basing of the People.
ports of the Conunissioners appohned to inquire into the state 7.'"! and afterwards the Sheriff done justice to his constituents, and completely vin. The Marquis of LONDONDERRY would be
of Charhahle Institutions for du Education of the robs in mends with him retired, dieated himself. But it should seem that in that eery to have expressed himself unsuitably on ti
Great Rritain.—Ordered. was persuaded to call on the instant a new Meeting,
_____....., „,nar, R. :. .h. ...smarm. He was surprised at this, as acting House there. was something like a, spell wt on Gen- subject before the House, or to have treated the lio-
• - -- . . !ie____..,..i...._ .I._ nourable Member for Norfolk with any disrespect