Star.
London, England, 1812-06-19 00:00:00

P.fRLIZIWEIVniRr PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, JUNE Is.
The Irish Loan, and the Irish Drawbacks and Bounties Regu•
laden Bills were read a third time and .pa fed.
In a Committee on the Orders in Council, three witnesses
were examined relative thereto.
The House then resumed, and an adjournment, during plea-
sure, for some time took place.

ORDERS IN CO.UACIL. -

Soon after'the LORD CHANCELLOR again took his
seat on the e•oolcack.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE, on seeing a
Noble Earl ( Bathurst) in his place, rose for the pur-
pos of putrieg a few questions to him, on a subject
the most importantly connected with the commercial
interests of the country. It was of perfect notoriety,
from what passed in another place, that a considera.
ble change was meditated in the commercial policy
of the country ; and, under this impression, he ad-
dressed the Noble Earl, with a view of removing
doubts which still existed among many of their Lord-
ships, and on the part of the great body of those per-
sons whose interests were so deeply at stake. It was
obvious in those views, that whatever change was in-
tended, it should be distinctly and immediately ex-
plairied. In putting the questions he was about to do,
he should reserve to himself the power and the mode,
should the answer make it necessary, of his coming
forward, on any future occasion, in consequence of it.
In the ST st place, he begged leave to inquire, whether
the intended change in the cothmercial policy of the
country extended to that which he deemed the most
material and effectual, particularly with respect to
our relations with America, namely, a total and im-
mediate repeal of the Orders in Council ? If it Sell
short of this, whether it were meant that a suspen-
sion or a conditional rescinding of the Orders should
take place ; if only a suspension, for what time ? and
if a conditional revocation, upon what conditions ?
Upon the clearness and publicity of these explana-
tions would
.depend the line of conduct which the
,great body of the Merchants and Manufacturers of
the country would pursue, whose vital interests were
so deeply implicated. Whatever the intentions of his
Majesty's Government were (which he trusted would
extend to a review and repeal of the Orders), he ear-
nestly recommended 'that such intentions should
speedily be,made public by some formal instrument,
1 which document, if issued, it was his intention to move
an Address for its production to the House.
LEarl BATHURST said, he concluded, that in
consequence of what passed in another place, that
some questions on the subject would be put to his
Majesty's Ministers in that House ; and in answer
to 'what had fallen from the Noble Marquis, he had
to state, that on the 21st of May, a copy of an instru-
ment, purporting to be a decree of the French Go-
vernmentt had bfen communicated to his Majesty's
Government. Ihe document was dated the 21st of
April, 1811 ;- but it had not, before the time men.
tioned, been delivered to the American Government,
though dated upwards of a year before. This Was
acknowledged by the American Government itself,
and even by the French Minister in America, who
stated he had never befcire seen it. This went to de.
dare the repeal of the Berlin and Milan Decrees ,so 1
immaillNlMllmir "

far as related to the United States ; and taking all
the circumstances into consideration, it appeared to
his Majesty's Ministers a matter of doubt, whether
Or not the Decrees in question could be considered
thereby as revoked ; but it appeared to be expedient
to declare, that the Order of January, 1807, and the -
Order of 1809, should be revoked at a given period,
so that the American Government should abrogate
their restrictive measures on the ships and commerce
of Great Britain ; and in the case of a certain ar-
.rangement taking place with the French and Ame-
rican Governments, that they should be revoked al-
together. There was another point, conditionally
required, that America should, within a given pe-
riod, allow British ships of war to enter her harbours
in the same manner as die other Belligerent vessels
were admitted. This was all he felt it necessary to
state in the present instance ; but would add, that
whatever the determination of his Majesty's Govern-
ment should be, it would be formally promulgated
in a public instrument. His Majesty's Ministers
would be responsible fin their conduct on the occa-
sion ; and any Noble Lord might afterwards more
for the production of this document, with a view to
,ulterior discussion.

Earl GREY did not, from the peculiar and impor-
tant interest of the occassion, think the Noble Earl
sufficiently explicit. By what fell from him, he un-
derstood that the revocation of these Orders was not
to take place immediately, but at some date to be
fixed, calculating the time necessary for communica.
Lion with America.

Earl BATHURST said, that the Act was to be
in force until its notification to America ; but this
delay could not produce any inconvenience to the
met cantile interest here. It was net our Orders that
prevented their trade to A.merica, it was the Ameri.
can Act which would not admit it into the harbours
of America ; and as the repeal of the Orders took
place the rr...ment the notification was made there,
no ii.jury could happen by the delay, which equally
affected the cargo and the transit of the repeal. The
revocation of the Orders depended on the American
revocation of hostile acts ; and also on the admission
of our ships of war into her ports. He should
merely repeat what he had said of the duration of the
Orders. They were to continue in operation until
advice of them could reach America ; and American
ships violating the blockade were liable to be taken as
usual, but no proceedings were to be entered into
apinst them, until the American revocation was
known here.

Lord GREY observed, probably in a month or
six weeks ; but, wished to know particularly, whether
it was meant to act upon the order in the interval ?
He knew it was meant, that the abrogations should
be contemporaneous. The next point was, that it
depended upon certain conditions, which if not corn•
plied with, it would lead to the revival of the orders.
It should be explained what these conditions were.—
Another point was, that it would also depend on the
conduct of the French Government, withrespect to the
revocation of the Berlin and Milan Decrees. This
point also should be explained.—He lamented that
such a result should be left to the conduct of the
French Government. The course therein adopted
by Ministers was contrary to the true honour and in-
terests of the country. He thought Government
should at once, upon a v;ew of all the circumstances,
decide, if in their minds for the interests of the coun-
try, to continue them fully and openly ; if in the ne-
gative at once to repeal them.
• Earl BATHURST, in reply, observed, there was
nothing in the Orders in Connc:l which prevented a
British vessel from going out to America • the diffi-
culty was how she would be received there. The
Noble Earl seemed mistaken as to the pbint. The
revocation of the Orders would depend wholly upon
the conduct of the United States in respect to the
points he had stated. The conduct of the French
Government with respect to the subject may evident-
ly be such as would render it incumbent on his Ma-
jesty's Government to declare the revival of the mea-
sures in question, With respect to the Noble Earl's
question, as to- the operation of the Orders in the in-'
terval of the necessary communication with the Uni-
ted States, he said, it was understood they should be
considered in operation to the extent only that such
vessels brought in as had violated the blockade should,
not be proceeded on to final adjud'cation, until the de-
, termination of the American Government should be
fully known.

Earl STANHOPE urged the necessity of the
determination of Government, with reference to the
distressed state of the manufacturers, should be
known as distinctly and speedily as possible ; and
he deprecated any arrangement which left it within
the power of the French Government effectually to
revive those injurious measurer.
Earl GREY, in the course of an explanation of
some length, deprecated, as a feeble and injurious
policy, the making the revocation - conditional, only
to gain a petty advantage, in having it in our power
subsequently to condemn such ships as may be
brought in. He also referred to the state of the power
as vested by Act of Congress in the American Presi-
dent, as tending to preclude him from meeting with
the desired effect a proposition clogged with such
conditions from the British Government.
The Earl of LAUDERDALE discussed the.
whole policy of the Orders; and concluded a speech
of some length by s:ating it as his firm opinion, that.
the conduct of Government bad been from the begin-
ning weak, ignorant, and obscure.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL was so convinced that
the proper tame for the discussion was, when the in-
strument alluded to was made public, which wvuld
be in a few days, that he should only detain the
House for a moment. As to the delay cif The opera.
tion of the repeal, there were reasons which he thought
clearly sufficient, for making)ts commencement here
and in America as nearly contemporaneous as possi-
ble. The distance of America made it difficult to
appoint a 'particular day for the receipt of the com-
munication ; it would be otherwise if that distance
were less. If, for instance, it was not more than that
of France, a day might be distinctly fixed, from which
the Orders were to cease: bu., they were to cease be-
fore we had received any announcement from Ame-
rica, that The Non-Intercourse Act had been repealed
in consequence. This he said to amqnd the miscon-
ception of the Noble Lord ( Lauderdale). His other
questions had reference to other discussions of other
times, and therefore he (Lord Liverpool) must be
excused answering them. The Noble Lord (Lau-
derdale) harmed to 14ye utterlrmisconceiyed tae

spirit cf the declaration issued oft the French rem!
of the Btrlin and Milan Decrees : it implied :to aban.
donment of the Orders in general, but merely cti
terms which were known and stated. Another mit.
conception had been, that our repeal depended on t.ll
will of the French Government. There was no doubt
that farther and future arrangements between Eruct
ant America might ocmion the revival of the Or.
dens, bUt as tl:is must be with the consent of both
powers, the Mode in Avllich the revival would npave
must be determined widt reference to each, by their
mutual share in such arrangements. The preft
mOntent was, howevtr, the least f t for going into de
subject, and he should say no more tund the Anil%
tic Instrument, which pledged Government, wash
fore the House.'

The Earl of ROSSLYN thought that the delayi
even a month must be extremely prejudicial. Th
great shipment for America was the FALL Alit
which took place in July ; which would be •
most injuriously by the doubtful-state of the ',elk
As to the retention of the American shiPPinpiiss
was it, in comparison to the immense quanuty dot
would be in American portst ready to be mind
the first appearance of 2.ny similar atternpt °arm
Earl FITZ WILLIAM observed, that the ma&
facturers had stated in evidence, that they m. 001,164
goods to America immediately on the repe4l of tlt
Orders in Council, from the confidence they had,that
the repeal of the Non-Importation Act would irusne.
diately follow. But if the revocation was to be ac.
companied with these conditions, he wits comic/4
that not a bale of goods would be shipped ; and tflit
the distresses of the manufacturers would net be a.
moved for some time.

Lord HOLLAND strongly disapproverlef
petty, undignified manner in which this revoearke
took place ; and repeated what had been said by
Noble Friend near him, that since the Ministers took
their measures, they ought- to execute them in their
manner. These conditions had no other use than to
chew, that the thing was done with reluctance. nil
ungracious mode of proceeding might make it dcubei
ful with the President of the United States, stick
it wets intended really to do the thing at all, and or.
casion a suspicion that our Government wishednal;
to get cradit for the attempt, without the odium ct s
failure, and that therefore they had made the at,
tempt in a way not likely to succeed. What weld
be the situatioh of our tmar,ufacturers in shit Fate
of doubt ?

The Earl of LAUDERDALE said, that if tts
Orders were revoked without these conditions, k
was imperative on the President to repeal the Na:
importation Act ; but if the revocation was tobtai,
tended with such conditions, the President mi*
think it questionable whetter he had the power. lie
again adverte4 to the different characters which rhos
measures had assumed : being first rctaEaticn: upon
an enemy—then measures of commercial mop*
—and now, in case the conditions were not complied
with, they were to be measures of retaliatart open
America, far the adoption of internal regulations,
with which we had no right to interfere.
The Earl ef LIVERs'OOL stated, that thenotle
fication of the French
.Government, as to the rrpe.4
of the Berlin arrcliMilan Decrees. as far a:respected
Ame-rica, had been, that they were sp far to to rq
pealed at a distent day ; yvt the President bad aced
upon this lei,

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE asked, whole,
the admission of Briti,Mmerchant ships with go*
into the ports of the United States, as well as tai
ships of war, was a condition to be insisted on
•The Earl of LIVERPOOL answered, that it ot:
that it was required of America to repeal All the rt
gulations consequent on the Orders in Council.

- .
CURATE; BILL.
The Earl of HARROWBY, in rising to move ks
the recommittal of this Bill, explained.the catureasd
objects of the measure to their Lordships at consider..
able length. In prefacing this exposition, he noticed
his coming forward with respect to the Bill, as it
were, as an executor of the intentions of the late et•
cellent and ever to be lamented Premier, on *hots
public and private virtues, patriotism, and scilicet
to his country, the Noble Earl pronounced an appra
priate eulogium. He entered into various details II
shew the importance and the necessity of the nay
sure, and to shew the House, that the far greatetlng
of the clerical duty of the Established Churdi us
performed by that very meritorious class of them
verend profession, the curates. He stated, that it*,
peered from the returns upon the table, that must
10,261 places, there were non-resident incumbent.
'2671, by exemption, 2114 by leave, and 1055 sw
residents from other causes. This the Noble Earl stat•
among a variety of other points, to shew how grot
a proportion of the clerical duty was performed brit
curates. He then entered into a statement of them
rious legislative provisions which were made forams'
lioi sting their condition, from the time of Edward
to the latest periods of his Majesty's •reign ; ad`
the powers which were vested in the Bishops fetal
time to time, with respect to this valuable dew*
tion of the Clergy.—He likewise adverted te.de
various and unequal state of their stipends, ebdi
arising from the very unequal amounts or rn
of livings in different pans of the country •••1,
detailed statement of the provisions of the Bali •
would not then trouble their Lordships with; tfl_
they would perceive on penising it ; and couldtu!!
discuss in the Committee. He observed, that Pt
Church was itself rich enough to answer the cleil
requisite for the principal objects of the Bin.
statement of the great inequalities of the ren;
tion of its Ministers could not be considered
hcrror. (Hear, hear, from Earl Stanhope.)
some further observations, his Lordship p
• rocmdni
1g
state some of the leading provisions of the Bill.
•
was proposed, that no curate should officiate
being duly licensed by the Bishop, those who
not being left in too great a state of dependants
the incumbent, and could not well complain of
situation. The minuet of salary, it was Pen7ist
should be eighty pounds. Where the pular'
tained 500 souls, it was to be £lOO per mat! it
where 1000 -souls, £l5O ; where the amount
livings did not come up up to those sums, the
_,CI:;
was to have the whole. The Noble Earl sm•lovili
further provisions of the Bill, and concluded by su
that it be committed for Monday.
The Arabishop of CANTERBURY oba•/14
that when the Bill came next day into sa .
several amendments would be necessary. A turn--
discussion of the subject would set lbw lap

with respect to the tishops, a supposed want of ac-
tivity on whose parts seemed to be one of the main
Motives for the Bill.
The Bishop of LONDON inside a variety of ob-
orwatims on the subject, and though he did not
Kew adverse to the cruiciple of the measure, yet was
of opinion its details would lead to endless coin-
plaints. The Bill, he thought, was greatly encum-
ure ! with unnecessary apparatus.
The Doi of LIVERPOOL was favourable to the
principle •,f the Biil, and thought it should go to de.
pled discussion in a Committee. The permission
of non-residence was perhaps, in some degree, neces-
sary, in the present state of the Church ; still it
should be remembered the practice was founded upon
no principle of the Christian religioni—( Hear, hear)—
and he noticed the frequency of such matters being
regulated by legislative provision.
Ea! STANHOPE shortly delivered his semi-
wets, which were in favour of the measure.
some further conversation took place, in which
the Bishop of EXETER, the LORD CHANCELLOR, and
some other Pt ers, participated; after which the Noble
Earl's motion, as above, was agreed to, and their
Lordships adjourned till to.morrw.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
mime o'clock the r[AIC ER Ef oli need the Members, when
co 46 hting pr,s.rt. an adjourrment neccoarily rook place.

THE EN ENING STAR.

LONDON.
FRIDAY, JUNE 19.

11/LICE OF STOCKS THIS DAY AT ONE O'CLOCK.
per Ct. Red. 564 H-4 per Ct. nil
g per Ct. Cons. tar motley shut—Ditto for opg. 57 59
gtsch. hills (34d.) 3s. Is. pr.—Do. (31d.) 9s. 4s. dis.
Toads is. 9s. dis.-4. Anus. 15 1-16th—Omniurn .<2i pre.

The Debate which was expected on the Catholic
Question last night in the House of Commons, was
put off; strange as it may appear, by a heavy shower
of rain ! When the SVEAKER counted the House at
the usual hour, there were four Members wanting to
form a House, and he was under the necessity .of
adjourning till to-night. In a few minutes after-
wards, when the rain ceased, about 300 Members
made their appearance, and they of course went home.
The debate will take place to•night. In the mean time
it is confidently reported, that Mr. CANNING'S motion
Is so temperately framed as to meet the approbation
of Ministers, and that the discussion will be of short
duration. If this report be correct, we have no doubt
that the great object of Catholic Emancipation will
be effected, in a manner which
.ought to give satis-
faction to all parties, i. e. gradually and temperately.

Some commercial men, notwithstanding what pas-
sedinthe House of Commons on Tuesday, respect-
ing the abrogation of the Orders in Council, may
perhaps express fears that the hopes entertained on
this subject will not be realized ; and these fears they
rest upon what fell from Lord CASTLEREAGH, that
*proposition should be made to Amcrica to suspend
the Orders in Council, on condition that she should
suspend her Non-intercourse Act. But subsequent
explanations between his Lordship and Mr. BROUGHAM
led to the withdrawing of the proposed motions of
both, on an understanding that the Orders ha Coun-1
cil should be actually suspended.
In fact, the condition hinted at in the debate has
already been acceded todby America. It is the stan-
ding law of her land, enacted before this Session of
Negress, that when either 'of the Belligerents re-
pealed its Edicts, to that Belligerent should the Non-i
intercourse be repealed : and we recollect also its
being urged, on the paper revocation of the Berlin
and Milan Decrees, that the American Presiders had
under that law no discretionary power, but was ob-
liged to proclaim the release of France from the ope-
ralion of the Non-intercourse. Neither has he a dis-
cretionary power. now, under the existing laws of
America; buts will, in like manner, be obliged, on
the suspension of our Orders in Council, to revoke
the obnoxious measures against us. Should Ame-
rica, indeed, determine that she will not repeal her
Non-intercourse against us, when she officially hears
what has passed in the British Parliament, this must
proceed from a new law, and would be a fresh act
of injustite. This, however, we do not anticipate as
even possible: h would be too dangerous an experi-
ment for the Antifederalists to make, and would
insure a complete triumph to their opponents, who,
"en under unfavourable circumstances, have of late
been evidently gaining ground in point of influence.
. In the city the prevailing opinion is, that a good
3111. daltallding, and an extended and mutoually bene-
tsial intercourse will speedily be established between
the two countries ; and already the benefits expected
to flow from
this change of system, begin to be felt
among commercial men. In the mean time we en-
tertain no doubt, that the receipt of the intelligence
in the Manufacturing districts, will do more fin' the
restoration of order and subordination than the pre-
'ace of the military has been able to effect.
The following documents amply confirm the view
ye have taken of the question :
Extract of a letter from Mr. MoNRoE to his Majes-
Ws Minister, Mr. FOSTER, dated July 26,.1811 :
t: leis in the power of the British' Government, at this time,
essar ble the President to set the Non-importation Law aside,
LesiderieS to the United .States an act of justice. If Great
zra win. cease to violate their neutral rights, by revoking the
reel us Council, on which event alone the President has
`ae Pewter, I am instructed to inform you, that he will, without
um), eleruse it, by terminating the operations of the law."
Extract from the present Non-Importation Act of
flue United States :
"And be it 'further enacted,
That
in case Great &haul. shall so revoke or molif7 her

E dietd,als that they cease to illotate the bleutral Commerce
of the United Sties, the President shall declare the fact by Pro-
' claniat!oa, and such Proclamation Chan be admitted as evidence,
land no ether evidence shall be admitted of such revocation or mo•
difications In any suit oe prosecution, which may be instituted
under the fourth section of the Act of which this is a supplement,
And the restrictions imposed •or which may he imposed, by vir-
tue of said Act, shall, from the date of such Proclamation, cease
and be discontinued."

The LAURESTINUSI 24 guns, has arrived from Rio
Janeiro, and brings the disagreeable intelligence that
the inhabitants have declared their independence, and
that the English Consul was obliged to return home.
We sincerely hope that this intelligence w ill not be
confirmed by subsequent arrivals.

A Jamaica Mail reached town this morning, bring-
ing letters and papers to the 3d of May, from which
we make the following extracts :

FROM THE CORNWALL CHRONICLE, MAY 2.
Recent advices from St. Domingo give an ac-'
count of the complete destruction of the French
faction which was formed by RIGAUD at Aux Cayes.
TRANSIQUE, one of BONAPARTE'S Garde d'Honneur,
had fled from. his command at Jeremie, and Bon-
GELLAT and his party have been completely over-
thrown, and it is expected that he will be compelled
to depart for France. The whole of the territory
which was under the dominion of RIGAUD, has in
consequence fallen into the possession of PETION, as
also the corvette and brig, which were in company at
the time the action between the Southampton and
l'Amethyst commenced."