Star.
London, England, 1824-03-06 00:00:00

GREAT BRITAIN AND SOOTII AMERICA.

Sir J. MACKINTOSH said, that having carefully
perused the papers which were last night laid upon the
table of the House, he rose to propose to the Right
Honourable Secretary for Foreign Affairs one or two
questions upon subjects connected with them. The first
of these questions would be, whether any answer had
yet been received from the Court of Madrid to the dis-
patch from this Government, dated the 30th of January?
(Hear.) If such an answer bad been received by his
Majesty's Government, he presumed there could be‘no
objection on their part to lay it before the House. His
second question was, whether his Majesty's Government
possessed the decree, or, if not the original, even an
authentic or accurate copy of the decree said to have
been made by Ferdidand VII. professing to regulate the
commerce of vast countries in South America that had
long ceased to acknowledge his authority ? If such
copy was in the possession of Ministers, he supposed i
there could be no objettion to its production. He should
also he de i ous—and to this he could anticipate no
objection—that there should be laid before the House a
copy of the treaty entered into between Great Britain
and Spain, in the year 1810; which treaty was referred
to in that di Tatch of the 30th of January, as granting
to British subjects a right of trade with the subjects of
Spain in the two hemispheres—(Heer, hear). Now,
be knew it was possible that that treaty might have been
printed, or ha'e been, in some shape or- other, already
laid before Parliament. If so, he was not aw*ie of the
fact; but he presumed that the treaty alluded to could
not be that, which was made with Adniiial Apodaca,
for•that WAS made in 1809. If it had not been printed,
he should either move that it be printed, or give notice
of a motion for its production, according to the answer

which he might receive to the questions which he had
addressed to the Right Honourable Secretary. •
Mr. Secretary CANNING observed, that to the ques-
tions. of his Honourable and Learned Friend, he would
answer separately, but he would invert the order in
which those questions had been put. And first, as to
the supposed treaty, between Spain and Great Britain.
No such treaty was in existence to the best of his know-
ledge. In the year 1810, when this country promised
to interpose her mediation between Spain and her colo-
nies in America, it was merely upon an understanding
between the two Governments that the coast law of
(pain was suspended AS between the subjects of the two
nations. No instrument, as far as he had ascertained,
was in existence, in which this agreement was recorded.
Any motion, therefore, by his Honourable and Learned
Friend upon the subject of this supposed treaty ,would
be unnecessary, for there would be nothing to produce.
As to the second question propounded about the de-
cree, he knew of that only as a matter of public noto-
riety ; but he really could not say whether it bad been,
yet communicated to his Majesty's Government in that
authentic shape that would entitle it to be considered us
a document in their possession. He (Mr. Canning) ra-
ther thought it had not been so communicated, but that
any knowledge of it which might be possessed by his
Majesty's
.Government was derived from its having ap-
peared in the ordinary way in the public journals. lf,
however, such a decree had been communicated to
then), they would undoubtedly nut object to lay it be-
fore Parliament. As to the third question, whether any
answer had been received from Spain in reply to the
dispatch of the 30th of January, he had no objection to,
cute all that it 'was in his power to state about the
matter. He believed that an answer simply acknow-'
ledging the receipt of the dispatch had beers received byl
this Government. In reply to the remaining part oft
%Nina had been addressed to him that evening by his
Ilonourable and Learned Friend, be would merely say,
that there were circumstances which would prevent his
(Mr. Canning; s) stating; to the House at present any thing
further as to the precise state-in which this country nowl
stood with respect to America. The Right Honour-'
able Gentleman added, that the- dispatch in ques-
tion was not laid before Parliament while it was yet
upon its way to Madrid, because, had it been laid
On the table at an earlier period, it Was obviously possi-
ble that the Court of Madrid might have read the im'
portant dispatch in question in the public papers of this
country before it reached them in its more authentic
shape. It was upon this account he begged his Ho-
nourable and Learned -Friend to postpone his motion.
The moment that an official answer should be received
to that dispatch, it should be laid before Parliament...
( Hear, hear.) The scope of his Honourable and
Learned Friend's motion (for theuth it was riot shaped
in this manner, it clearly lent to this extent) was to in-
duce his Majesty's Government to lay before Mist-
meni such documents and papers as might shew to the
House the principles upon which Government had
hitherto acted, and intended in future to act, in regard
to America. But he freely told his Honourable and
Learned Friend, that if the communications which Mi.
nisters had already made on this subject, had been such
as to entitle them to the confidence of Parliament, he
should resist every attempt to extort further informa-
tion, or to compel the production of further papers re-
lative to these matters under the present. state of cir-
cumstantei. lf, on the contrary, the communications
which Government had made bad not entitled them to
the confidence of Parliament, his Hon. and Learned
Friind would be at liberty to take his own course upon
this important affair.
Sir J. MACKINTOSH, in explanation, said lie had
listened- to every word that had fallen from the Right
Honourable Secretary; but as at present advised, he'
saw nothing to induce him to alter his original inten.
don, Which, at a future day, he should be disposed to
carry into effect.
OAOL ACT AMENDMENT DILL.
On the question that this Bill be read a second time,
Mr. G. BENNET intimated his intention of opposing
several enactments of the Bill in Committee. He called
the attention of the House to the severe inequality of the
punishment of the tread-mill (to the discipline of which,
-properly applied, he was friendly), owing to the absurd
varieties -of construction upon which those mills were
built in different parts of the country. The Hon. Mem-
ber then referred to some calculations which' had been
made of the degrees of labour in some tread-mills, corn.
pared with others. From these, it appeared, that taking
the height of the Monument to be 172 feet, the per-
sons working in some tread-mills ascended the height elf
that building 82 times, in others, 83 times, and others
again, 96 times, in the course of one day's work. He
next adverted to a letter from the keeper of Lancaster
gaol, in which it was stated that 10,000 feet of labour
(of ascent on the wheel) was sufficient for the labour of
one man in the course of a day, and that by a calcula-
tion it appeared that a day's work of 12,000 feet of
ascent was equal to the labour of walking 37 miles on
level ground. In the Committee he would propose to
limit the labour of the men to 10,000 feet, and that of
women to 8,000 feet, in the coarse of one day. With
respect to inferior prisons belonging to local jurisdic-
tions, he observed that most of them were destitute of
the ordinary conveniences of a prison ; some were'
without bedding, some without allowance of fire, and
others witheut any employment or religious instruction.
to obviate those evils, he would move in the Comnfittee,
that the provisions of the Bill should extend to those
places ; that the local Magistrates should be obliged to
commit the prisoners to the county jail, and pay a cer-
tain portion for their maintenance, and that they should
be obliged to send lunatic prisoners to some asylum..
.
Mr. Secretary PEEL said that he concurred the
last speaker entirely in the propriety of not 'sending un-
tried prisoners to the tread-mill. The last Act gave the
Magistrates the power of putting them to such work, if
the parties wished it; but it was a misconstruction of
that Act to say, that Magistrates could compel untried
prisoners to work, by threatening to withhold from.
them the prison allowance, if they refused. He was
surprised at this construction of the Act, the words of
which were, he thought, so plsin; but to prevent any
future mistake, he would introduce a clause, that no
untried prisoner should be compelled to do any work
against-his will, but that whether he desired it or not he
should not be put to the tread-mill—(Hear). With,
respect to the plan of fixing a maximum of labour, he
did not think it would be productive of any good. It
10,000 or 8,000 feet of ascent were taken as a maxim*
a Magistrate'would have no disci etion ; and what might
be an excessive degree of labour to one man, would be
comparatively light to another. The calculation of'
12,000 feet of ascent on the mill being equal to 37'
Imiles of walking on level ground, was most extravagant
and erroneous. It was founded on an assumption of the
' ascent on the wheel .being perpendicular. He denied

. rtr

that the labour at all corresponded to perpendicul**--
ascent. or that it was equal with that of dragging 041.
the body at every step. But he had not heard—what
vieuld be a more decisive objection—that the labour i f
the mill was generally prejudicial to health, and he
knew of nonearther which gave a more equal division
of labour. Axis, smaller jurisdictions and local pry
sons, 'he thought the lion. Ile caber's proposition of
obliging the local Nlagistrate to commit to the county
jail, would in gener:4l be rather a disadvantage than% a
c•mvenietice to the party committed. Ile %sashed. tbAt
the poser of local jurisdictions could, wiLliontatry vio-
lation of present interests, be tran,fer red to the Judges
of the land ; but as they at present stood, he did not
think the proposed change would be a benefit. The pte-
sent' Bill would not extend to inferior .p? i:ons, 'but he
begged it not to be understood that he was on this ac-
count inditfetent to the state -of tau se prisons ; they
might be the subject of a separate measure. With re-
spect to the last point, that of lunatic prisons, he did.
not ee how the era could be remedied by the Bill.
Sir I'. BARING was nut aversetu the u .e of the tread-
mill as a means of iunishme..t, if subjected to proper
regulations, by which excessive labour might be avoided.
Instances of great abuse had occurred trona the want
of such regulations. One was a case of a woman com-
mitted in Surrey, Who,. though.only a short time after
her eiccouchement, was, when sent to prison, put on the
mill, from' which she was soon after taken in a state of

great exhangieuf.
. Mr. HOLME SUMNER complained, that the Hon.
Baronet who Spoke last had not given a lair account of
Mrs. Loder's case. She was committed for having bad
an illegitimate child, which was the third which she
had borne 'to three different men. He would -make a
statement to the House which would prove that Work-

Ping at the tread-mill had been beneficial to Mrs Luder.
On the 31st of October she was weighed (a laugh), and
her weight was eight stone two pounds. She was
weighed again on the 13th of December, having, in the
interim, worked on the mill, and her weight had in-
creased nine pounds. On the 2d June she was weighed
again, not having been on the wheel since the 13th De-
cember, and it was found that she had loin two pounds.
—(A laugh).—After a few words from Mr. %MAN,
Mr. COURTENAY, and Mr. Alderman Woon, the Bill
was read a second time, and ordeted to be comshiued
on Monday. _ . .

THE attritsi BILL.
On the question that the House do resolve itself into
a Committee on the above Bill,

Mr. HUME rose and ohjecied to the measure, be-
Cause it authorized the infliction of corporal punishuient
on 73,000 Men. His attention was called to the subject
by a circular recently issued by Lord Bathurst, recom-
mending the abolition of flogging in the West Indies.
He could not uridertaand why a species of punishment
which was considered improper to be used toward;
slaves, should be inflicted upon freemen. Ile was ...con
vinee&that the practice of' flogging degraded the army.
The HO. Member next observed, that the inhabitants
in the>neighbourhood of the King's Mews were greatly'
annoyed by the cries of soldiers, who were almost daily
flogged there. Independant of the corporal punish-
menu, there were regulations connected with Our mit-
tary system, which made it surprising that the Bill before
the House should so long have passed without objection.
Surely if there was one being more than another whose
word ought to be undoubted, an Officer of the Army
ought to stand in that estimation; and yet there was a.
regulation existing at the present moment which en.-
forced the necessity of telling a falsehood'ujson allititt •
every man who came into the service. Every Officer
who purchased a commission, and every Officer who
parted with one, was compelled to declare on honour
that he neither took nor gave more than the regulation -
price ; while it was note:loos to the whole army, and
must be notorious to the Duke of-York himself, that,.in
nine cases out of ten, more v..; paid than the parties
declared to. Suppose an Officer to be challenged in a
Jury-box with this declaration—what would becense of
his evidence—would credit be attached to it? He (Mr.
Home) did hope that, far the future, no Officer would
be called on to give any such- assurance. Upon the
subject of the corporal punishment, be was loth to
detain the House too long ; but he hoped that
his Majesty's Mini ters, while they were protecting
the black slaves, would not forget the white ones.
He heard that there were some chips of war in our ser-
vice, in which dicipline had been Maintained for years,
without the infliction of a single lash. He heard that -
'this had been done in some regiments: if in one, why
not in all ? Of late years, a system had bein adopted
of placing soldiers in solitary confinement he wished to
know to what periods the confinement was used to be
limited, and whether Government had received any re-
port as to its effects ? The plan of solitary confinement
was one which he approved, provided the power was
not left open to abuse; but he was surprised io hear
that, in some instances, men who were put into cars-
finementforfeited their pay ; and that that pay actually
went into the pockets of the Officers who sentenced
diem—(Loud cries of " no.") Well Ihe should be
glad to be told what was the practice of the Guards,
and, indeed, of the army generally,-in that respect. The
Honourable Member sat down, by Moving an instruz•
lion to the Committee, to insert a clause iu the Mutiny
Bill abolishity, flogging in the army.

Sir HENRY lIARDINGE replied to that Part of the Ho.
!mumble Member for Aberdeen's speech which refetied to the pit.
nishment of soldiers in the barracks at the King's Mews. He
begged to state, that during the last twelve months, ooe man only
had been punished front the resident* Occupying those fittrteks ;
but be thought decidedly that the power of Bogging was Makin* ,
to the discipline of the army.
Mr. HUME explained. -
Sir R. WILSON had al Bays mouldered corporal punishment to
be equally cruel, degrading, and unnecessary. In Germany, is
France, and even in Pruasla, it Was no longer practised. If it Was
to be got rid of at all, it must bil got rid of by positive law ; or
see, where a Commander recommended its disuse, regimental
Officers might throw the blame upon him of pray accidental dia.
order that followed. l'he present moistest was most favourable
for abolishing a punishment which was disgraceful to the onion,
and' ruinous to the character of the army ; we were not now, as in
time of war, beating about the country to enlist the refuse of man-
kind ; but if the fear of flogging were removed, we might comprise
our regiments of men to whom the disgrace of dismission from the
aervice would he sufficient warning against misomdurt.
Colonel WOOD observed, that the present sublet was a very
pod one to make a speech upon ; but, as far as his experience had
Row in the command of a militia regiment, to thought he could
sot have maintained discipline without the power of corporal pa-
ailment. The Honoutable Member for Westminster (Sir Francis
Burdett) bad, no doubt, rfficted good by the attention whidl he had
formerly. paid to the question ; and he (Colonel Wood) firmly be-
lieved that that Honourable Member would more recently have
ilisched upon it, if he had not been satisfied that no further benefit
vial 'likely to t esult front his exertions. With respect to solitary
confinement, the Commander.iteChiers notice had been drawn t.
that point of arrangement ; and the utmost period of imprisonment
was limited to six weeks. lle (Colonel Wood), however, strongly
objected to sending menfhji way of punishment, to the tread-mill;
and s° (while Honourable :Wandler, were talking of the bOOOW of
the service) mixing refractory soldiers up with common felons
Mr..JOll N. SMITH, apart from every question of military de-

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