Star.
London, England, 1809-05-09 00:00:00

SIR JOHN 1110011 F..

Lord MORPETH wished to know whether any measures had
been taken by his Majesty's Ministers, in pursuance of the assur-
ance formerly given by a Noble Lord that a proper provision would
be made for the family of Sir-John Moore ?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER replied, that
steps had been taken for that puriose. In the first instance, it was
the Intention of Government to bestow this remuneration on the
mother of the gallant General, but finding that it was the wish of
the family that it should be received by a male branch, Sir John

Moores brother, measures were then in contemplation to tt,t
eiNct.

TIERNEY asked if it was intended to make. any
mentary application for giving facility to the object to sieve
The CHANCELLOR if the EXCHEQUER replied in :;,.
negative, adding that the Civil List Fund was sufficient ft,r 112;
purpose.
Mr. HORNF.R moved for a copy of all communications b .
tween the Admiralt y and the lireastiri tbe
tion of a new Hospital at Y:trn,nti.h, &c.

After a short discussion, in which Mr. R. WARD, Mr. Ho,
Nit, the CIIA-NCELLOR Of the.riCHEQUEItSILABER.O • •,:.
and Mr. P. MOORE partijiated, the motion was negatived w-iiil:
out a division.
Lord MILTON moved for leave to briog in abill to empow -
Judges in England to try civil causes in their own counties. e.
Mr. WILISERFt.?•RCE. seconded the motion, stating, ,h„ t
Judges were nnaimous In their opinion, that such a pleasure s;uill .•e•
tt
be productive of great public convenience.
• SINFEURE PLACES AND PENSIONS.
Mr. MARTIN rose to call the attention of ti
House to the Third Report of the FinanceComrnittee
on the subject of Sinecure Places and Pensions, and
observed that though he was persuaded he was only
acting in the discharge of an imperious public dun:,
he would have been better pleased if the task had been
taken up by some other person. If the Honourable
Gentleman (Mr. Bankes) from whose labours cia,fi,
this Report had proceeded, or if Ministers had pa'.
posed any measure founded upon it, he would have
been happy to have been relieved Emit thatclridtitteevh.--nici
But although the task had fallen into his hands heh,d
the satisfaction to have escaped whatlier insinuation
'was likely to attach to one whatrikinated such pea
positions as he was about to submit to the Aotise, for
iinngreathlietyphleedwgeaswoinlilcyhasbsyistiitnsgownthe
Resolutions
H'ouseine
given to the public. The Addresses which had been
presented to his Majesty on the subject, and the ilia
pointment of the Committee whose Report was unt!er
consideration, for riled, in his conception, a clear te,d
distinct pledge to the public of the principles by t-bich
the House of Commons would be actuated when tins
subject was brought under its consideration ; and I.e
could not believe that the House would appoint it
Committee to report upon Abuses, and yet when tks-
Report's appeared leave them without bestowing am
attention upon them or giving them any practical ct.
fect. He (Mr. Martin) understood that the Hour:
had held.out to the country the hope of having effect-
ed with regard to sinecure places and pensions all the
reform that could be brought about without detriment
to the public service. The amount of Pensions, Si.
necure Places, and compensations in the nature if
Pensions, Mr. M. further observed, was stated by th;s
Committee to be £1,500,000. But then it wits to be
remarked that there was a vat iety of offices of which
nu return had been made, especially those connected
with the
,Ducliv of Lancaster, of which Mr. Burke I
had said that while it was vierth only Rsf.'Ax) in peint
of annual revenue, was worth a 150,000 in the way ef
Sinecure Places and. Expenditure. He admitted that
the total amount of the very large sum which he had
mentioned, could not perhaps by any motion or pre-
vision be so materially diminished as to afford any vtry
sensible alleviation of the public btwthens. But look-
ing at the pressure of the taxes at the present period,
' and the great increase of the national debt, and,ccu-
[ sidering that of the whole amount there was a sum of
i A 700,000 in which no Rei.o,m.could well take place,
the House must tee! that it was its duty toendearr.ur
to make every possible retrenchment in the ram:ie.-a
Some of these Places and Pensions were unexception-
able and even necessary. Whatever contributed t-i
the support of the Royal Family, to its comfort ';ir.fl ,
magnificence, would not be grudgeet-'' 17.11 e Rirh-
mentary Grants too, bestowed for distinguiShad.mert
and service, ought not to be, distuthed.:- As long as
these could be raised, they ought to be.paid,upon fit
ground that they were just-and necessary. But when
the House came to consider that all were raised INT
direct taxes, or by fees, which operated as taxes, he
was sure it would anxiously employ, itself in. Making
all the retrenchments compatible with the public ser-
vice. In his view of the matter no saving could be
made, as lee had already observed, so large as to al-
ford any very sensible alleviation •iiit the publit bur-
;hens. But admitting that no great saving could be
nude, still the House was to look atahe effect which
would be produced on the publii mind, when IL?
I people saw their Representatives detcrrnine&lo insti-
tute inquiries, and to adopt the most effectual .mta•
sures for promoting the most rigid economy, and f:r
confining the public expenditure within the narroweia
possible limits. He was perfectly ready to admit that
the House ought not to be guided in its measu:-es
arbitrio popular:: awe, but, as the great snitesman (41r.
Burke) had observed, where the wishes of thelseopix
were in themselves right and just, they ought t 4 bt .1
law to the House of Commons. The reform which t!-.!
country required, with respect to these Sinecure OF-
ces and Pensions, was in itself-just and right, and tietyal
the maxim of Mr. Burke ought to be a law to the Hoe-!.
—He then proceeded to state, that from the vt,r
1782, up to the present time, Committees had l'ker.
appointed to investigate this subject, and to incli,:-z
what retrenchinents could be made in con,isze.:.:7
with the public safety. Hardly •a year l:ad passel
without having the, public attention called to tl!i;
branch of the eipen.diture,, and several valuable. Re-
ports had been presented, among which those of t.a.•
Committee of 1796, at the head of which was the
Speaker of the 'House, Were distinguished for t.!e
sound policy and god sense which they displace..
But-what had been.donc in exonsiiitience ? He admit-
ted that some offices,iii'ilie, customs had been abo-
lished .up3n -the representatiohs contained in these
Reports, hut as to the rest, 'not one step- had been
taken. The House would find fromthe Report of
the Comniittee of 1796, that offices in the Courts of
justice, especially in the Court of Exchequer., to the
amount of 426;000 might be.properly_abolished, and
the same remark had begia made by-Lad-Chief Jus-
tice Hale. Yet nothing had been One uppn this sug-
gestion, and it would be found that many of theru
had been granted in reversion Avon the terminatioa
of a life interest.- Parliament,- however, had an op-
portunity of abolishing theae.offices, when a provi:ioa
was made for retiring Judges, and for. Chancellors
going out of office. --Parliament might then undoubt-
edly have stipulated for'the abolition of these eific•!s-
Who ever .considered that Jtiages. had once been re'
movable at the pleasure of the.. Crown, lutist 17tirilt.
• that when their situationsswett Madepermanent, w!•'
I their salaries had from time to-time betn augmented
although he was far from it sin.uating.th4 they wcr,
over paid, an arrangement might,.liave been n 1.7.;
with them, by which these Si nocures miot-have 5e,1
done away, The purchase and stile of officess;,ll

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netted with situations beheld to be an improper thing
in itself; and,ihough no. abuse had arisen from it, as
far as the administration of justice was concerned, yet
it was a practice which had better be discontinued.
Unt threigli the labours of other Committees had been
so
much neglected, he hoped the labours of the pre-
sent Committee would be more :uccessful. He hoped
that all would concur in the application of some -re-
medy to the abuse, whether they adopted that which
he was aliout to propose or not. One thing was clear,
that wherever a; abuse was pointed out, a remedy
eszht, if possible, to be applied. He should therefore
hardly have thought that there could be any objection
to the resolutions which he was about to submit to
the House so obviously proper upon the bare state-
ment of them, and though aot exactly borne out by
tie: very words of the Report, yet in every respect so
conformable to its object and spirit, had he not heard
that it had been said out of doors (he begged pardon
fo: the irregularity of the allusion) that these sinecure
places and pensions were so intimately connected with
tae prerogatives and rights of the Crown, as to form
the p illafium of the British Constitution. But who-
ever looked at the increase of the burthens of the peo-
ple from the year I7B6—whoever looked at the aug-
matation of the taxes—at the immense power which
tL Crown had acquired by the increase of the army
;eel navy—whoever looked at the situation of Europe,
asd ~pas aware of the impossibility of procuring a
Face Nvhich would admit of any material diminution
the war establishment—whoever knew all this
scarcely maintain that the influence of the
( ;own was on the decline. When a Report was pre-
she ed on this subject in the year 1791, the publicex-
paiditure was only fifteen millions nine hundred and
saevaiine thousand pounds. In the last year the ex-
peniiture was seventy-seven millions eight hundred
and odd thousand pounds ! Could any one look at
this and deny that the influence of the Crown had
greatly increased ? Though these sinecures were abo-
lished, thine would still remain to the Crown the ap-
pointment to all the numerous situations to which the
circumstances of the country and of the world had
necessarily given rise.—The Crown would still have
the appointments to the Army and Navy, so prodi-
giously augmented, owing to the state of the times.
It would still have the appointments connected with
the collection of the Revenue, and many others which
were unknown in former times. Surely then it could
not be seriously contended that the appointment to
these Sinecures was at all esential to the stability or •
the dignity of the regal power. That great States-
man, Mr. Burke, had said that the influence which
the Crown derived from these sinecure Places and
Pensions was a corrupt influence, destructive to the
re; ;st venerable part of our Constitution, and degrad-
ise to the dignity of the Crown itself. It was from
ceasiderations such as these that he thought it his
duty to call the attention of the House, to this Report.
—The Honourable and Learned Gentleman next ad-
verted to the Report of the Committee on the Civil
List in the year 1802, it appeared from that Report
that in the year 1787, the Pension List did not exceed
tin sem of £9,185 per annum, and at the present time
that he was then addressing them, the Pension List
amounted to the sum annually of £.51,689, and the
House would bear in remembrance, that Mr. Burke's
original plan went to reduce the Pension List, in-
clieling every thing, to the sum of 1.60,000 annually;
laic in the estimate he had just made, the sum of
£51,680 was exclusive of contingent pension, and va-
rious other charges. The next head to which be
should call the attention of the Hottse was, that of the
Pensions arising out of the four and a half per cent.
duties owith respect to the pensions arising out of those
duties, it was not his intention to submit any specific
Resolution to the House—but at the same time, if
his calling the attention of his Majesty's Ministers to
tieit Fart of the subject, should be productive of no
measure taken by them in applying a remedy in that
case, he should then feel it his duty to submit to the
House at some future period,the propriety of sending
up to the Throne an humble and dutiful Address
upon this subject, considering it to be the most res-
pectful mode of proceeding, where the proceeding was
rf a nature that related to any interference with the
hoyal Prerogative. He would here recall to the
I lo::se's recollection, the rise of those duties it would
he recollected that in the first instance, these du-
. tes upon the four and a half per cents. were granted
by an Act of the Assembly of the Island of Barba-
dses in the year 1663, but at that time those duties
wf re iipproptiated to Colonial purposes, and the in-
t:anal benefit of the Island itself. After the Revo-
. let4m the application of those duties was extended,
' appropriateil by Parliament in the reign of Queen
Anne to the service of this country.
On referring to the 144 h volume of the Journals, it
would be found that a petition had been presented to
that House from the Colonies in Barbadoes, stating
the original ground of those duties, praying their due
app:opriation, and for relief, against the pressure oc-
ca,inned by their recent appropriation. In conse-
quence of that petition, it would appear from that
volume of the Journals that that House sent up an
humble Address to her Majesty, that those duties
:right he placed, as nearly as might be, upon their
ooginal grounds, and that they should be omitted in
the Civil List ; and accordingly they were omitted ;
-,..•.:111;-re he had to observe, that the salaries of the
'ehsers and other officers in the Government of
ues '‘'.a;t- India Islands were then paid out of those
duties, as appeared from the accounts laid upon the
-.-‘ll)!ehelween the years 1701 and 1710, and not the
s:esi!es wily, but the expellees resulting from keeping
t' It' respective fortifications, &c. in repair—whereas •
('r.'s-tit all those estimates were included in the
A:rny Eatraordinariea for each year. The House
h-at auotlur claim upon those four end a halt per cent.
ti;zte. Originally the tyrant in 176.5 to the hue Duke
01 elloacester, was paid out of the four and a half per
cent. dtltisn, but Parliament afterwards transferred
this groat, amonntine; to .'00(.4) a-year, and it was
paid d,•. Mg the remainder of his life, for a number
f year nfl out of those duties, but out of the Con-
e.lidaeso rand, wh;ch saving to the four and a half
er cent. duties, gave Parliament a proportionable
claim upon those c * by diminishing in that pro-
p, THOU the chari!.e, ‘1!)on them.
In pressing upon the attention of the Legislature
the necessity of diminishing the additional charges
upon those Deties arising out of the quantity of Pen-
seals paid by them, he did not wish to interfere with
th, King's Prerogative ; nor did he think that addres-
ting the Throne as to the propriety of rescinding such
Pinaions, went at all improperly to interfere with the

The next head •to which' he should call direr atten•'

tion would be that of the Pensions paid out of the
Treasury Fee Funds. Those were in general appro.'
printed to recompence those who retired from the du-
ties of any office on being superanuated. That House
had never been backward in remunerating public ser-
vices ; and where age prevented a continuance of
them from any individual, that individual would
-never want the generous support of that House. At
the same time, he was fully aware of the inconveni-
encies that mast necessarily result from taking the
power of granting Pensions to superannuated person;
out of the hands in which it was at present, but cer-
tainly there was something reprehensible in the man-
ner in which that power was now vested, for at pre- I
sent they might superannuate whom they pleased,
and grant Pensions at their own pleasure. This was
a power that ought to be in some degree qualified ;
but it was not his wish, nor his intention, to transfer
the scrutiny altogether to that House, as that might
be not only inconvenient, but perhaps unavailable.—
Under this head, too, might be included the Pensions
and Allowances voted in the ordinary Estimates of
the Navy.
The next Lead he would bring under their consi-
deration was that arising out of the old funds of the
Navy, the pensions paid out of the old stores. With
respect to this order of Pensions it was his intention,
in one of the Resolutions he should have the honour
at a future period of proposing, should the House
adopt his present motion and go into Committee on
the Report, to suggest the propriety of a humble Ad-
dress to his Majesty against the principle of granting
Pensions out of the Old Stores.

The next head he would advert to was that of Al.
lowances in the nature of Pensions, which though
under the head of Allowances did not differ from
Pensions. The House would remember that it .was

Mr. Burke's object to restrict Allowances in the na-
ture of Pensions within the limits of 95,000 L Of those
Allowances at the present day one class amounted to
42,000 and odd pounds, and the other to 56,0001.—
making a total amount nearly to 99,0001. So that in
this one instance Mr. Burke's plan of economical Re-
form was exceeded by a sum of 40001.
The next point to which he should call their atten-
tion was that of the sinecures, under which he should
also include the emoluments of those offices and places
held by persons who discharged the respective duties
thereof by deputy. They would find the gross esti-
mate tinder this head to amount to not less a sum
than 272,3551. including 22 offices at 301. per annum
each, and exclusive of several colonial sinecures. In
this were comprehended all those offices appertaining
to Coui is of Justice ; but here he wished to observe,
that it was not his intention to introduce any resolu-
lution affecting places of that nature. He thought
them, however, well worthy the attention of his Ma-
jesty's Ministers, and here read to the House a pas-
sgge from the Report of a Committee at the close of
dNorth's administration, in which while the right
of property in any freehold held under a grant from
the Crown, was admitted as absolute, a distinction
was taken between such property, and that existing
in the tenure of an office held under a Royal Grant,
which in itself implied the condition of its duties
being effectively discharged by, the persoalk holding
the same ; whence it was inferred that the turning of
any office into a sinecure was by the Act a forfeiture
of the office. If such suggestions were thought wise
and applicable at that time, when the national expen-
diture did not exceed 16 millions, how much more
so were they at the present day, when they were in-
creased from 16 millions to 77 millions ? Those were
the principal heads, including pensions, places, sine-
cures, and compensations, as far as related to Eng-
land, of wh st might be enumerated under the general
head of defraying the charges of pensions in that part
of the United Kingdom.
He should now call the attention of the House to
the general head of items included in the Pensions in
Scotland, it would not be expected to be very great,
it however amounted at present to 39,6001. an error•
mous increase, when it was considered that at•the
accession of his present Majesty it appeared from the
Report of the Committee upon this, subject, that the
Pension List at that time in Scotland did not exceed
the sum of 59251. so that in• the course of forty-nine
years the Pension List in that country had increased
33,6751. The head including the charges for Sine-
cures and Offices, the duties of which were done by
deputies, might be estimated in Scotland at 29,3001.
the original limits of those charges under the act were
restricted within 10,0001. He intended therefore to
propose in his subsequent Resolutions, that those
charges be reduced, and that an humble Address be
presented to his Majesty, praying that they may not
be permitted to increase beyond a certain limit, and
that the surplus be applied to his Majesty's benefit.
Having now dismissed the Pension charges for Eng-
land aneScotland, he would say one word on the
same item of expenditure for Ireland.—lreland would
be found to be a much more fruitful soil for Pensions
than Scotland. The .110,000 granted by the act was
considerably exceeded. Beside, the King had for
smaller pensions a fund out of the Irish Establishment,
amounting to £l2OO per annum. The annual charges,
including pensions and compensations (which in that
country were considerable) amounted to no less a sun*
than er_93,475. The sinecures and the allowances in
the nature of pensions to those superannuated, had
been much increased in Ireland on account of a false
interpretation having been put upon the act of Parlia-
ment ; to such an extent was this carried, that per-
sons who had served for any given time thought them-
selets privileged to retire, though then perhaps in the
prime of life, in their 45th or 46th years, when they
had become fully acquainted with the nature of their
office, and were at that very time better able to dis-
charge the duties of it, than they had been at any
former period, thus superannuating themselves after
they had, as it were, served a sort of en apprenticeship
to the duties of the office.
Another circumstance of which he had to complain,
with respect to the indiscriminate allowance of com-
pensations was, that they were given not only to those
who retired from places and offices held by patent,
but to those also who retired from places they had
held merely during pleasure—this was not in unison
with the true and original principle of such grants, for
they were intended to prevent injustice ; but what in-
justice, .he would ask, was suffered by the man who
holding a place at pleasure was removed at pleasure?
He thought it wrong, therefore, so to misapply the
public-mbney, by giving it to those who had no claims
whiterer upon public justice. Hence he thought that.