Star.
London, England, 1824-02-20 00:00:00

JURIES.

Mr. Secretary PEEL then•yose to move lot leave
bring in a Bill to consolidate the laws relating,to the,
pannelling of Juries. He said it was unnecessary for
to attempt any eulogiurn on the system of Trial by Ji
and he hoped it was equally unnecessary for him to
that it was not his intention, in any part of the propose,
Bill, to introduce a word that would tend to weaken'
efficiency of that actinkaVe:system. His intention
to consolidate the laWs ; aad when he stated that the:
were no less than fifty Statutes on that subject, it tyr
at 'once be seen how desirable it was that a console
tion should take place. There were twenty differ
Statutes to shew who might he a Juror in
The number alone was a sufficient reason for his rn,
sere ; but from the titles of-some of the Acts, no
could be led to believe that they related to Juries.
would defy any man to guess that he should tint a r
lation on that subject in an Act for the more speedl
-oovery of small Tithes. One Act was entitled
preventing the exportation of Leather;" another,
the better payment of Seamen's Wages ;" and loot!
" for exempting Apothecaries from serving the ()lac(
Scavengers," in all which there were clauses relatin;
Juries, which he prOposed to consolidate. As to
amendment of the law, which would of cdui se pro,
discussion, it be better to postpone them to
tore stage of the Bill. On the subject of the quali
tion he should propose some enactment, and also fen
more effectually compelling the attendance of ;Jurors.
On the subject of subordinate .officers nominating
persons who were to serve on Juries, be should also,
pose some regulation : he thought the Magistrates
Petty• Sessions might be usefully employed in cited
the returns of the tithingmun or constable, and puns
ing any omission of a qualified person.•
Sir JOHN NEWPORT hoped that a separate ,
sure of the same nature would be brought forward
plying to Ireland, where the present practice amour
to a surrender of justice into the hands of individi
very ill qualified, from the operations of jealousy
party spirit, for such a trust.
Mr. VVODEHOUSE disclaimed the intention of
ing any reflection on any of the learned persons
siding or practising in the Courts of Law ; but in si
of them, the Court of Exchequer particularly, there
a laxity of proceeding with regard to prosecutions,
an array of Cotin,el, which must compel every 0111
enter a protest against both in a moral. and consti
tional point of view. He recommended to the Iti
lion. Gentleman (Mr. Peel) a.quiet and steady at
tion to the amelioration of such abuses, by which (thou;
no noisy fame was attached to it) he would confer
greatest-benefit, and one which die great body of
people would duly appreciate.
Mr. HUME had on a former occasion expressed

opinion in favour of choosing the Jury by ballot,
he had since had an Cipportunity of conversing with
officer whose duty it zat present to strike the Special
Juries, and he (My. Mim) *as convinced that RothV
would be more pleasing to I:im than to be divesv
that power ; and. this he (Mr. Hume) thought rit
easily be done. (-le hoped the Right ilonenrable
tleman would save the 'House the trouble of g•
through two Bills, as it would be. mt.ch more con'
nient to have the whole sibject embraced in one Siat
Indeed, he conidered the siMpliacation of the Stat
book as an object well worthy of the attention of
vernment. He instanced the case of an Act for,,rect
ing of tithes, which contained a clause, the effect
which limited the number of proctors in the I'rerogr
Court, and the charges were in consequence very
Mr. G. LAMB said he could not but feel jealous

consolidating Acts, as he had seldom known them
through the f louse without some new elapse being
troduced. If he had-occasion, he would rather refer
the old statutes en any point tesi.ecting the Jury system,
than have to hunt it out in the wordy labyrinth
.modern Ac: of Parliament. Much good was said
have been done recently by the repeal of absolute
prcssive statutes; kin there was a principle in operation,

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11.11 r

w. :J1 did good by leaving them in disuse, whilst-insny
,::I,e4ecnnseilidation Acts reiivech and put them again
i,:o baneful operation.
Dr. LUSHINGTON. considered the present state of
oe law to be a very. great evil. It was almost impos-
sible to say on any one subject what was the .statute
10. His Honotrrable and Learned Priendobjettedro
theomeasure proposed, because something prejudicial
slight creep in, but it was the duty of that:House to
watch over and prevent such results. It. had been said,
that they would lose the benefit of decisions; but was
there ever a case in which the Counsel on both sides did
not produce a number of cases, which each contended
were exactly in pint? He would appeal to Country
Gentlemen whether it was not desirable to have in one
statute the law which otherwise they must look for in
new editions of Nunes Justice, where the Val ious statutes
were pointed out? The Statutes at Large must be pro-
cored, then, at the trifling expense of about sixty guineas;
after that they must have the Reports ; in short, the
whole of a Lnwyer's library, which costs about 1,060/.
He was satisfied that.the more the system was examined,
the more necessary it would be found to resort to the
system of consolidation.
Sir EDWARD KNATCHBULL was friendly tolhe
consolidation of the law, though he was not prepared us
admit the necessity of extending the qualification of
aurymenr.—Leave*was given to bring in the Bill.

• THE IRISH
Sir 3. NEWPORT, pursuant to notice, after some.
prefatory observations, moved for leave to bring in it
Ballo repeal so4ntlch of the Act of the 21st of Geo. IL
tap. 8, as prohibited tile craninution of ecclesiastical'
dignities, by severing from any Deanery or Canonry, any
:arish, except on the condition of adding another Fra-
ridi of equal value to it.
Mr. GRATTAN expresse I his intention of giving no
opposition to the Bill, though he saw &AI it was liable
to some objections.
Mr. GOULBURN. opposed the repeal of the Act, on
the ground that it would not forward the objects which
the 11. m. Baronet had in view.
Mr. DAWSON opposed the motion 00 the ground
taken by his Right Hon. Friend (Mr. Goulburn).
Dr. LUSH ING TON- was-desirous that a clause shoutd
be introduced into the statute, by which ,the Arch-
bishop, with the consent of the Lord Lieutenant, might
he empowered to exchange any benefice .attached to a
Deanery, Canonry, or other dignity of the Established
Church in Irelands for some other benefice (not there-
tofore.annexed to such Deanery or other dignity), even
if it should be of inferior value to the benefice so ex.:

changed for it ; provided: the exchange should be de-
sirable for the more geneial and effectual celebration of
the service of the Church. _ _

•

Mr. GOULBURN, who had forthetly felt an objec-
tion to this proposition, had now no difficulty in saying
that he would consider it.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT craved. leave to withdraw his
motiop was accordingly withdrawn.
mutt RKTURNS.
Mr. GRATTAN rose to submit a Motion to whit*.
he could lin anticipate any reasonable objection.. k
Was niezely for some returns as to the names and religir
p.,v)Fession of certain individuals filling particular
officcs Irelai,d; and hi's motion was, in effect, con-
current with t,iat of which a Noble Lord had recently

given notice. The House were well aware that, in 1793,
an Act was passed decluirtg Roman Catholics, as well
as Protestants, eligible to all and posts in Ireland,
with the exception of such as were therein by name
excepted. Now the immediate Object he had in view,,
was to shew hove this statute had been acted on, and
who had beeri‘omitted out of its operation since 1793.
And hereally did believe that these returns would go
far to demonstrate what was the real cause of the many
political evils which had so long afßicted Ireland ; for
they would prove; that out of the many offices which the
Act declared Roman Catholics competent to fill, there
was hardly one to which a Roam Catholic had been ad-
mitted. If it had not been for this unjustsand invidious
sort of exclusion, Ireland would not have been agitated
by half the troubles which had befallen her; and•.such
an evasion of the Act of 1793, was productive of more
harm than all the penal statutes that oppressed her. At
all events, if Parliament were to repeal the' latter to-
morrow, the repeal would not effect greater benefit to
that unfortunate country, than the due observance of
this equitable Act would ensure to her—(Hear). The
Honourable Geatleman then moved—
That there be laid before the House a return of the names of
an individuals filling various offices and appointments in Ireland,
distinguibliing those who profess the Roman Catholic religion from
those who ate Protestants."
Now, among all these, he really believed there bl'as
scarcely a single Roman Catholic. There were 74
trustees, for example, of the Linen Board ; and he had
Jenson to assert that among them there was not one
Catholic—(Hear)—so that he imagined he might al-
most say with tiuth, that in all the twenty-seven offices
attd appointments enumerated in the motion there was
hardly one officer of the religious persuasion in question.
Upon the gqestion being put from the chair,
GO.ULBUILN sails it had nat been his rood
fortune to be present in the House when notice of this
Motion ?rategiven, and it was only by acciLlent that he
had seen it% the Paper. But as it stood theme, it was
by no inea:is so detailed as the Motion now submitted
by the Honourable ,gentleman ; for it was there
de-
sctibed as a u return of the names and religious persua-
sionsof all persons connected with the general adiniMs-
tration ur justice, receipt and management of- the Re=
venue, the general reanufacadre and education of Ireol
Line lie (Mr. Goulburn) thought that everybody,
ton rr&ction, must see a sufficient reason for his re-
faang these returns. It would be the first time that this
House, by an order of its own, had ever thought fit to
call on certain bodies in the community to make a re-
tarn of the religious persuasion of the various persons of
whole they were composed, or of those of the officers
they employed. Honour able Gentlememi must be aware
that even in the case of the common population returns,
it was considered expedient to make at stated
Periods, an Act of Pailiament was always passed to
"tuhotite the degree of power necessary to be exercises',
to order to get such returns prepared. Yet, in a motion .
if this inquisitorial nature, it ayes thought sefficient
that an Honourable Member should merely come down
211c1 move the returns as matter almost of course.—
It had indeed.been the policy of the Legislature to re.
vire that the candidates fOr certain Offices ie the. State
:40ulti make a profession of faith before they were al-
'l"ed enter upon them ; but suelt a test was never
!eluiled of those who'had already entered and weetin
r:teajoyment of' offices. This would be a. erincltile.
itew to our Constitution, and one whichie (ir.
,Llburn) would ever warmly oppose. The lgotion
ca-
'•tar for the return, not only of Grand Jurors and

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?Petty itirors, but also persons-crinitekted with the
administration of justice: Now; nothing could be more
unreasonable thanthet is such, leturns,aliould be in-'
icluded individuals whose services were purely houotary,
'and svithout emolument. He had • no•objecticin, how-
ever, to a return that sheath:Me tonfitied to thOse who.
had already taken the test oaths. • In the Stamp and
other Depaitments, there was no necessity for inquiring
into the religious persuasionof the leers ; and he (Mr.
Goulburn), --(hiring his own connection with Leland,
had made it a soma' tide to hfinself to.fdttear, in cases
of such appointments, fibril inquiring at all' into the re-
ligious or political opinions of 'the party. On the
grounds he had stated, he should resist the Motion.
Lord ALTHORP.couId hardly, conceive it possible,
if the:principle which the Right Hon. Gentleman had
just spoken' of had beeti properly noted on, that in a
country where there was so small a proportion of Pro-
testants, and so great a majority .of Roman Catholics,
so very few of the latter should have been admitted into
these offices in the course of so many years. Were there
anything really inquisitoriAl in the motion of his Honour-
able Friend, he (Lord Althorp) would be the, last man
to support it; but the fact was, that till his own atten-
tion had been particularly called to the' 'Object, he was
not at all aware how few Catholics had been a')pointed
to offices which they were competent by law to fill.
Though not at. present excluded by law, they were, in
effect, by prejudice; and they would continue to be so
as long as they continued a degraded caste in the coma-
try. 'lhe return itself would be the most effectual means
of rethoving the degradation which caused so much
mi,chief and misery to Ireland.
Mr.HOBHOUSE thought, that when the Act of 1793
was passed, it must undoubtedly have been the inten-
tion of the Legislature that somehow or other they
should learn from time to time-whether their benevolent
intentions were carried into effect. He should like to
know how they could learn, without some such returns
being made to the House, as those that were now moved
for ? He held in his hand a list that had been furnished
ihim by an Irish gentleman of very gdod information, of
all the offices that were opened to Catholics under the
Act of 1793; and he was informed, that at present there
"was not one of them filled by a Roman Catholic.r-Allear)..
ilk should be glad if the Right Hon. Gentleman Cduld •
contradict this statement of the party alluded to.
Mr. GOULBURN.—To the extent which had • been
mentioned by the Hon. Gentleman opposite, it certainly
was not true—(" Hear,"frem the Ministerial benches.)
Mr. HOBHOUSE.—Then that was the very reason
why the return should be furnished(Hear). An Hon.
Meitiber wild sat below him (Mr. Dominick BroWne, we
believe) assured him that the proportion of Protestants to
Roman Catholics in these appointments was as 49 to 50.
(Hear.) The object of his Hon. Friend (Mr..Grattan)
was simply, therefore, this—to know whether religious
faith was a ground of exclusion fiom tho'se offices which
the Act of 1793 opened without any such distinction.
The Right Honourable Gentleman had objected that
'some of the appointments were merely honorary; but
the Irish, like the rest of the world, thought something
of the honour, as well as of alie more substantial emolu-,,
meats of office. The excus4 which the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had given for his opPebition was at
least very suspicious; and, without meaning anything
disrespectful to him„surely it was'not quite the true one.
The fact was, W'at the Right Honourable Gentleman did
not like that there should be laid on they table of the
House any record that not one Roman Catholic had
been admitted to any of those numerous offices to which
they were equally competent with Protestants, under an
Act of Parliament--(Hear.)-r-Hpw many Roman Ca-
tholics there must be, the Right Honourable Gentleman
very well knew.:---Mr. GOULBURN really did not.
Mr. UOBHOUSE.—Then if the Right Honoulable
Gentleman did not know, he ought to inquire how many
Roman Catholiet were employed by the Government in
any official appointments in Ireland. Could any know-
ledge be more necessary for the Secretary for Ireland ?
The return now moved for would shew, that all the
boastings of Parliament, as to what they had done for
Ireland since 1793, were vain.; that they had only kept
that predominating party in power, which elaimed,net
only power, but arms also, exclusively. He hoped; under
the circumstances of the case, the Right Honourable
Secretary (Mr. Goulburn) would reconsider his opposi-
tion, and not refuse his assent to the present Motion.
The CHANCELLOR of tIit_EXCHEQUER said,
he could see no reason why the motion shonlcrbe granted,
embracing a principle whiCh would call upon every
man holding a situation in a public office to state what
his religion was ; l.e therefore would concur with his
night Hon. Friend in opposing it. He rose principally
for the purpose' of setting the last speaker right in one
point, and to assure him, that there did 'not exist in his
Majesty's Government any disposition to exclude the
Roman Catholics from their fair proportion of patronage
in offices to which they were by law eligible. He would
mention two instances in which Roman Catliptics had
been appointed to public situations : one of them, Mr.
Troy, to be an Inspector of Customs at Liverpool ; and
the other, Mr. Darcy Mahon, to the office of Commis-
sioner of Stamps ; and he believed the Noble Lord at
the head of the Treasury did not know whether they
were Catholics or not. This of itself would shew that
there was no disposition to exclude Itotnan Catholics
JIM office by any previous inquiry al to tlitirreligion-
• Mr. HUME said that the two appointments Men-.
dotted were only exceptions to the 'general rule, and. it
sl:ould further be 'observed, that it was only lately thel
Treasury took upon itself to appoint to situations in Ire-1
land, and that was one cause why Roman Catholics had'
been excluded in that country. The present motion, he
contended, was most important; and he hoped his Ho-
nourable Friend would press it; if not, he-pledged-him-
self thit be would bring it forward on another occasion.
Mn A. ELLIS thought that*. motion ought to. be
acceded to by the Secretary. for Ireland, if it were gay
for bii own satisfaction; for as he did not seem Widow
'the proportion in which the offices were divided be=
tweed Protestants and Roman Catholics, he ought not
to refuse that which, would give, him correct
1.4 infsorir,t‘era-
tion on subject.
. .
Mr. Secretary PEEL said,- it was.atnfortAtate ro
inference drawn by the Hon. Membetfor Aberdeen, ibitt
the two Catholic appointrisents spoken of were' inn our
ginally made by this Government. • They were.- drigib.
Daily. made by the Irish Governmiusti• atttLin;therslate,
arrangements by die Treasury they wore csaittitaK4. .
that it was unfair to infer; that these were. eMlkons c ,
the general rule of the Irish Orel.lined, With re'
spect to the motion before the. tihifse
if the iabject-cras tcrshew thist the itintakektiolitstbakt
not their fair: Awe of pateostage,. titurpreseasameidevas
a ls.id one • -slot deft object be teirlf. riaatlada 11bc kli!
shevrn, if it (mould. le, *eat a.?that.l4man, Csiiih?licaasfcre
excluded (being in other respects e &point