Star.
London, England, 1831-04-15 00:00:00

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nests of the parties from tiem it was -aid to ernaoate. lie ho
that his Majesty's minister s, with the transcendent talent, which they
would yet modify the Bill considerably. Be considered
Lis:ettels7was a popular plumy for change.
The LORD CH ANCELLOR began by deprecating all such dis-
cussions as inconvenient and irregulur • still, as the house lied been
dragged into them—(cries of no, no, from the opposition)—well then,
if not dragged. he (the Lord Chancellor) should borrow a metaphor
iron' a Noble Martti, —the house had been seduced and beguiled to
i.oter upon n former right, when a motion connected with
the 11‘e.ibUte Retorm was brought forward by a Noble Lord
(hie notice of which motion was given, the Noble
'marquis ( lo.r.rlontitrry; thought proper to be altogether silent on
that occasion, aud now, when the house was prepared only to hear
!se.ition re 1. agreeably to the rules of the house, the Noble Lord
(Vas—r.o. he supposed he niust not say drags. for that implies
1..7. v. but ,elites, for that implies consent ; the noble lord entices the
into a debate on the reform question, of which no notice whatever
osd been given or expected ; far be it from him (the Lord Chancellor)
to enter into all the details of that measure, although no very amicable
attack had been made on the proposing of it; he was suffering greatly
from fatigue ; he had been without the benefit of bed or board for some
limo, which vt.s of itself a sufficient security that he should not detain
their lordships eny great length of time in the observations he bad to
male. With respect to the broad principle of the measure, was it no
abuse which required to be corrected that the right of giving laws to
millions at !rime, and tens of millions abroad—indeed, he might
say, giving laws to almost all the world ; was it no abuse, be inquired,
Chat these laws should be framed, and given by a few who obtained
their right to legislate by open barter, who bought their scats for
mousy, or tier money's worth ? The buying of seats in that house
was as common as the buying of cattle-stalls in the public markets,
though, peradventure, rot so large a price; yet, for attempting to
correct this abuse, his %kite's Ministers were charged with lopping
• :7 and tearing up the roots of the ancient Constitution of the country.
ha contested elections the barter and sale of men's consciences wax noto.
nous, and as degeading and destructive to the characters of the individuals
who came into Parliament by such means, as the peons who elected him.
Was it nn abuse, therefore, to take away the woe front freemen,
and especially non-resident freemen, who were guilty of such peso.
rites? He (the hoed Chancellor) had in hits time witnessed a contested
• !ection in a great rotten borough, for he could hold Liverpool in no
vibes light, where the candidates for many months after the election
were not aware that a single shilling of expense bud been incurred be-
yond what was necessary for erecting the hustings, and the allowable
expense of bringing non-resident voters to the roll, yet the sum
amounted to 411,0(101. rod t e had been told that the expense of the
vtry last election which monk place in that town was three times that
amount; he was confident that though the present general reform bill
was broken to shivers another local bill would be brought in toil° away
with such an apes as the one he had alluded to. But if the measure
• t reform had not bean brought forward at this period V,y his dlajesty'o
ministers, his noble Friend (l an of Carnat von) who had been for moue
sort of reform all his life, would have found fault, and he would have
complained of the dilatoriness of ministers, whose present situation
strongly remMded him of the old adage—
" Men have malty faults,
Women have but two;
There's nothing right they say,
.1:1.1 nothing right th..y do."--( A laugh.)

Ministers had been charged with paying no attention to property in the
passing of the Reform measure: he could assure the noble lord that
property aas its corner-stone ; freemen, he contended, were not pro-
p:rty ; there was no piorcrty in corporations : a freeman may be a
pauper on the parish, and convey to the pauper issue of It's loins the
vote which he gives. By the prrinnt bill that right was to be abolished,
solely because it was unconnected with property ; in short, property was
made the basis of the measure, front the 101. labourer to Ills master,—
In conclusion, the noble tral learned lord observed, that if there
sat one individual in their lordships' house more ready to prevent
any innovation on the settled institutions of the country, which had
grown up with her prosperity, he (the Lord Chancellor) was that in-
divittual. Tire present measure had the additional advantage of, in
some measure, pacifying IrJand ; in parts of that country where the
repeal of the Union had been agitated, that question was now not heard
ot. He should not use the langua.s of threat, but from Cornwall to
Sutherland the public peace would be placed in jeopardy if some mea-
sure of Reform were not adopted. He only begged their lordships to
remember that the thunders of Heaven are sometimes heard to roll
in the voice of a united people. (Hear, hear.)
Lord W YNFORD, at some length contended, that the sons of free-
men had as much right to their hereditary votes as their lordships had
to their titles.

Lord FARNHAM denied, that the Reform Bill had in the least
pacified any part of Ireland.
The LI IR 0 CHANCELLOR aasured the noble lord, that from
authentic information which he had received, in certain parts of Ireland
where a Repeal of the Union had been called for, since the Reform
measure bad been introduced, all agitation on that point had stopped.
The petition was then laid on the table.
SUBLETTING ACT.

After some conversation between LoitlMelboume and the Earl of
Wicklow, the second reading of the Subletting Act was postponed, but
until what day was not heard below the Bar.
Adjourned at Half-past One o'Clock
HOLTSE OF COMMONS.

Lord STANLEY havin;; presented petitions from the Jews in Lan-
cashire, for the removal of their civil disabilities,
Mr. R. GRANT took the opportunity of stating, that he should
Fastitons his motion till after the Reform Bill had been disposed of.
Sir G. 31URRAY resen ca n petition from the Presbyteries of Scot.
isnd, praying that their clergy might be admitted to the elective lean-
chisr. He did not concur in the prayer. He tirou;;ht otte great cause
of the high character of the clergy of Scotland, was that they had ne.
ver come in collision with their parishioners at elections, nor as magic.
trateN nor on the subject of trite.; but he considered the clergy ought
to be represented, and that the Universities should scud
representatives. As there was to be a change in the representation, of
which he did not see the necessity, he would claim on the part of
Scotland a greater number of representatives. He could see no reason
why a county in Scotland should not send two representadves; nor why
town in England having 4,000 inhat.titants should send members,
while towns of much greater population in Scotland should send none.
Mr. R. GRANT said that a proposition for giving representatives
to the Scottish Universities was now under the consideration of go.

Sir 0. MURRAY pest:fled at petition from boat owners of Leith
against the steam-boat tax, &c. and a petition from the coach masters
of Scotland for the repeal of the duty on coaches.
Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the suburbs of Manchester, in
fatour of the Reform Bill-- though they wete confident that ro
Reform could be complete withoat universal suffrage, and ballot
and annual parliaments. Also one front New Lanark, in favour of a
C.ee trade in corn. He regretted that he had been attacked by the cross
tires of the members for Kirkcudbright and NVateriottl—by Sawny and
Paddy—(A laugh.)
Mr. O'CONNELL said the ha). member had misunderstood him,
and therefore misrepresented him. lie bad sacrificed his feelings,
Lacing been prosecuted by the government, to support this bill, because
he thought it would promote good. The bon. member had become the
oracle of theTories,ss they lacked argument. He viewed the hon. mem-
-1...1 as a mock reformer. and desired not his co-operation. He believed
hon. gentleman had sold himself ro the Turks. He had not be-
E.:ved that they had bought him ; but if they had, they hed a
I..n.pting pennyworth. (A laugh.) He believed the hon. member Wig'.
repescnted John Bull as well as Paddy, because he did not understand
uhn : for himself. he did not believe John Bull was such a fool us
an.: u. accept a great good that was offered, because he could not grasp
al! h.: tle.ired. He diernot think that John would intitthe the do,; in
fable. lie considered the bill subs.antial good.
Mr. Aldermen WA ITH MAN said he would take that opportunity
.4 stating, that having considerable intercourse with various bodies of
1.0,1,1 e in different t.atts of the country, he never knew any measure so
v e rsally popular. (Hear.)
H. HARDINGE said he believed the bill was not universally
popular, that a large porton of the people were dissatisfied with the
Lilt

Mr. HUNT said, he bad before stated that the whole country was
running wild fur the Bill ; but he stated the other night that there
as a !treat re.action. (Hear.) He had vailous deputations to prove
it lln had not before charged, but be now charged, the Member for
Waterford, whit having trafficked with the Marquis of An2,lesey, for a
seat on the Bench, since given to Mr. Doherty. He would say
Aim::t he had never shifted his ground, but the Honourable
Mcit.t.er for IVaterford had, who, at the Hustings at Clare,
dt re,a for universal suffrage. Al.o, that he would move for the re-
st ota mit of the 40s. freeholders. But all had now been abandoned by
t It.: t Nlembtr. He had never abandoned one principle; he supported
the full, hut he did not think it went far enough. His constituen►s ap-
rs-ved of hi- conduct.

:%Ir. FERGUSON regretted that the Hon. Member bad at Man-
eb• %li.i- declared that this bill was a combination to suppress the lower
classes.

Mr. O'CONNELL declared that the statement respecting him was
most unfounded ; he had no traffick with the Marquis of Anglesey for
a seat or. the bench. Ile deemed it right to the Marquis to state thus
much. The Hon. Member for Preston might think of him as he
pleased, but he would never view him as a sincere reformer. (No, no.)
Mr. It UNT observed. that his sentiments at Manchester had been
stisrepre.ented but he did contend that if 7,000,000 were admitted to
votes, that change of laws would take place, which would reduce the
prices of provisions, the hours of labour. and advance wages. As to
the member for Waterford, he had heard Mr. Bennett declare, that
t:i:rr had been the negotiation for place on the bench, which, if success-
ful would have put an end to agitation.
Mr• lIUME said, he had a petition to present from 700 shipwrights,
dram ing their perfect approval of the Reform bill. He had also a pe-
tition from Shaftesbtuy, that was to be deprived of one of its members,
highly approving of the measure.
Mr. O'CONNELL said Mr. Bennett was a man of character, but

if he had n'..de any such

he had much Tangoed

Min: when he knew wane lie was: be would write to him. The ripre-
sentation was untrue whoever mode it.

Lord W. GRAHAM presented a petition from Dumbartonshire,
against the Reform Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE observed, that the petition was carried
by 33 persons, half of whom had no property in land. A petition in
favour of the bill was on its way from the majority of the landowners
of this country.
Mr. KENNEDY said, the Scotch county meetings were as good as
Scotland had ever had ; but they were select meetings, thirty or forty
only having attended ; and it might as well have been expected, that
Old Garton would have petitions for the Bill, as have calculated on the
rotten counties of Scotland. All the real county meetings, with one
exception, were in favour of the bill.
Sir GEORGE MURRAY said he had heard with astonishment the
Hon. Gentleman apply the offensive term rotten to the counties of Scot.
land. (Hear.) He was confident the landed interest of Scotland looked
with great alarm at the present measure. The Hon. Member had at.
tempted to cry up number and to deprecate property. (Hear.) He had
a letter front Sir Thomas Brisbane, who presided at • reform meeting,
in which he stated that he had done so because it was a Government
measure, and because he did not know it would be such a sweeping
measure. (Hear.) He had the honour of being elected four times for
his native county on perfectly independent principles.—(Hear.)
Sir J. MACINTOSH said it was evident the gallant general consi-
dered the representation of Scotland as the weakest point in the line of
the constitution. He believed the opinion of the middle class of men of
property in Scotland was in favour of reform. There might be a meet.
ing of the freeholders of a Scotch county, and not one amongst them
possess twenty acres of land; so much was the freehold dissevered from
the land. Scotland never had a free constitution, but owed her security
and prosperity to the shield held over her by the constitution of Eng-
land. She would, for the first time, have a free constitution when this
bill should pass. (Hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE CLERK was astonished that the learned gentleman
should support a measure that went to change the constitution of Eng-
land, which was sufficient both for the posperity !„of England and Scot-
land. (Hear, hear.) He was confident a great majority of the owners
of land in Scotland were opposed to the present bill.
Mr. FERGUSON said he was surprised to hear the term rotten
ap-
plied to the counties of Sctrland. The counties of Scotland were not
bought and sold—they were represented by men of independent fortune
and independent mind, and when the bill passed he did not think the
representation of Scotland would be much changed. (Hear, bear.)
Sir GEORGE WARREN DER said he had received many com-
munications from Scotland, and was bound to avow the change they
had produced in his opinion, and his conviction that the present sys-
tem could not continue in Scotland, and that popular election must take
p:aee. (Hear, hear.) He should, however, continue opposed to dis-
franchisementboth in England and Scotland.
Colonel BA I LLI E said the present state of representation in Scot.
land could not continue. He would give one instance in his own case.
He possessed a freehold vote in a county by right of superiority over
the land of another, from which he derived but a few shillings a-year.
In the same county he had an estate of 10001. a-year, from which he
had no elective franchise. (Hear.)
Mr. CAMPBELL said, it his native county of Fife, there had
been no meeting, because the convener of the county refused to call
one; but had a meeting been called, he was confident it would be in
favour of the measure. (Hear.)
General GASCOYNE said he wished to come to some understand-
ing with the noble lord about what they were to do on ,Monday, how
the battle was to be fought. (A laugh.) He thought the noble lord
should bring forward his bill in its new shape, and then give some days
for its consideration ; to go into the committee on Monday would be a
mockery.
Lord JOHN RUSSELL said, on Monday he should propose the
alterations that were intended to be made in the Bill, and &Per the horse
had heard his statement, it would be the better able to judge how it
should proceed. (Hear.)
Mr. FARE thought if ministers had matured their plan, they ought
to divulge the alterations they contemplated. Their mystification gave
ground for serious suspicions. The principle of the bill was traffic in
the rights of the people. It was to induce Irzland and Scotland to
come to the support of the present bill by giving them an increase of re-
presentatives while tho English members were to be diminished. The gen-
try of England had also their bribe in fifty-four additional members for
counties. All were to be bribed at the expense of the boroughs, the
out-voters, and the labouring classes.
Lord W. GRAHAM presented a petition from Dumbarton against
the tax on steam boats.