Star.
London, England, 1825-02-11 00:00:00

.
tiellialt WNW. chit they were air- abaft to enter %On'
a oaten which tended to sap the prosperity and destroy
the peace of the emery. With such feelings he was
bond to state, that hie could give no assent to the mea•
sure, as he was hostile to this Bill and its principle; he
made no scruple of thus early stating his opinion upon
it. As to the Catholic Association, he could easily
conceive that it was galling to some persons, becAuse it
tended to bring daily and hourly the grievances of the
Catholics before the public eye. If it were not for those
grievances that Association would not exist, and its ex-
istence was the most undeniable proof of the malversa-
tions of Government. The finger of scorn was raised
against us, and our bitterest enemies were able to taunt
us with our conduct to that people. If the measure of,
the Right Honourable Gentleman were passed, the Ca-
tholic Association might be pat down and that particular
effect would no longer appear; but would the slightest
approach have been made to the destruction of the

cause ?—(Near, hear) Emancipation was the only
weapon which would reach the cause. This Bill might
destroy the effect in this form, but it would aggravate
the cause from which that effect springs; he would say
at once, emancipate them—take them to your bosom—
give them equal rights, and you will really unite the
Empire. On this general view of the case he should
be disposed to resist the propositio t of the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman ; but as he had indulged in much
vituperation against the Catholic Association, he (Mr.
Abercromby,) though not standing there as their pro-
fessed advocate, yet he should consider it unmanly if he
joined in all that had been said against them. It had
been urged as an argument against the Catholic Ques-
tion, that it wai unimportant to the greater part of that
community ; that it was considered as merely a ques-
tion, whether Mr. O'Connell should sit in that house,

or that Lord Glengall be one of the 28 Representa-
tive Peers. Could the Iri)h Catholics be blamed then

for giving a practical answer to that argument ? Be-
sides, were there no Societies bound against them ? Was
not the Church of England closely united against the
Catholics of Ireland? Ever since Laid Sidmouth de-

awed that he held office on the tenour of Catholic

exclusion, the Clergy had been so bound together. He
deprecated, as much as the Right Hon. Gentleman, the
mixture of politics with religion, but why should that
be wrong in the Catholic Bishop which was right and
proper in the Protestant Bishop ? He thought the Ae.l
sociation had given the people generally a confident*
in the law, and made the rich sensible that they were,
amenable to it. He thought the cases produced by thew
Right Honourable Gentleman, being cases in which jiss
tice had not failed, were really against him. He than
examined several paragraphs of the Address of the Ca-
tholic Association, and contented, that although there
might be some objectionable expressions, it would be
too much, for such a cause, to proceed immediately to
legislate against them. The Catholic looking to his-
tory, bad observed, that the only relief obtained was in
the first case obtained under duress, and the other was
an appeal to the feelings of the Irish people, after which
the Government disappointed their hopes. The ex-
ample of the Convention, guided by the genius of
Grattan and the good sense of Lord Charlemont, was
respected whilst it was carried on upon its original
principles; but departing from these, they were scat-
tered like chaff. If it were true that the Rent was col-
lected by something very like compulsion, as was
stated, it required very little sagacity to see that it was
very near its end: and on that circumstance he founded
his strongest argument, that the Association should be
let alone. It was founded on enthusiasm which could
not be supported. He did not mean to say that the
Catholic spirit would not endure, • that he knew would
increase, and this Bill would have the tendency to in-
crease their energy, and cement their union, coming as
it *ould at the precise time when the Association was
at the height of its popularity. He thought the year
1825, a period the most auspicious possible for granting
the Catholics that which they had been disappointed of
at the Union. Indeed he should not be surprised if
some Orange Gentlemen was to rise in his place and
anticipate his Honourable Friend the Member fist West-
minster, by making a motion to that effect; and that
might be done in perfect consistency with the principles
of the Orangemen, who, finding the Catholics were now
really powerful from their numbers and knowledge,
were of course willing to negotiate with them. With
respect to Marquis Wellesley he must say, though he
had done some things for which he (Mr. A bercromby)
thought he was entitled to praise ; generally he would
say, that the Government of Lord Wellesley had failed; and the
greater his ability, moderation, and impartiality, the mere inevitable
became the conclusion, that no man could succeed there but by
giving Catholic Emancipation to the people. The Hon. Gen•
Hennas concluded by declaring his intention to resist the measure.
Sir H. PARNELL said, that the argument held by
the Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs, that the
Catholic Association was not identified with the great
body.of the Catholics, had been completely overthrown
by the statements of the Right Hon. Secretary for Ire-
land. The Right Hon. Gentleman had said, that the
Irish Nobility had been intimidated by the Association.
The objects of the Association were neither secret nor
discreditable. They consisted in the petitioning of
Parliament for redress—the better administration of
justice by protecting the poor and oppressed—the este-
' blishment of an independent Catholic press—wand
the circulating good and cheap books among the Ca-
tholic schools. Surely no one could quarrel with any
of these objects. The Right Honourable Secretary, in
stating his law cases, bad acted rather unfairly, inas-
much as be had given but two out of a great number.
The Honourable Baronet proceeded to describe at some
length, and in a low tone of voice, the facts of the trials
at Enniskillen, New Ross, and Cavan. He eulogised
the temperate and able conduct of the barristers sent
down by the Catholic Association, and contended that
the interference of the Association had been of the
greatest service in securing a purer administration of
justice. He denied that the Catholic Rent was not ap-
plied to purposes that were defined and known, as had
been stated by the Right Hon. Secretary. Everything
stewed that the money was used for public and known
objects. Its chief application was directed to the attain-
ment of Catholic Emancipation. But it was said that the
Association excited alarm, and disturbed the order of so-
ciety. Up to August and September, no alarm bad been
created; and the Association was at that time scarcely
a subject of general conversation. The alarm which
subsequently arose he attributed to the conduct of the
London Hibernian School:Society, in sending over dele-
gates to convert the Catholics, and carry on a system
of proselytism. It was to the discussions which they
excited, and not to the Catholic Association, that the
alarm of the country was owing. He denied that
,the Convention Act could be taken for such a precedent
was the Right Hon. Gentleman wished to make it.—
The Convention in 1793 w•• foimei with different

't44ait and under difierentCircatnitintes. The orange-
men of that day were as violent against the Catholic
Convention as those of the prevent time were now
against the Catholic Associations. Yet if their acts we:e
looked to it, would be found that in consequence of the
representations of their delegates, Lo.rd Westmoreland
assembled the Parliament and recommended that the

condition of bis Majesty's Catholic subjects should be
forthwith taken into consideration. He agreed with
the Right Honourable Secretary of State for Foreign
Affairs, that if the course of Lord Wellesley's Govern-
ment had not been interfered with, it would have
conferred prospective benefit upon the country. But
he drew a distinction between Lord Wellesley and
Lord Wellesley's administration, and contended that
Lord Wellesley had hai no opportunity of acting upon
his own views. They were thwarted by a divided Ca-
binet..ln that Cabinet, out of the siz which composed it,
including Lord Wellesley, four were opposed to him.—
He would venture to say that no such thing as a Ca-
tholic Association would have existed in the counti y if
Lord Wellesley had not been tied up by this state
of things. He believed that no measu'e of the House
could reach the Association, without repealing all
the laws which gave liberty and protection to the
subject. He would say, therefore, let the Associa•
tion alone; let the Orange Societies really be discoun-
tenanced ; and let the Bible Society put a stop to their
attempts at proselytism, and Mr. O'Connell and the

leaders of the Associa:ion would then be unable to

excite disturbance or alArm. [resent measured
ought not, in common sense, in common prudence, or
in common honesty, to be passed; but if passed, it might
do infinite mischief, while it would never work the

effect intended. He trusted that this Bill would not

pass, for it would be considered as an act of the English
people against the Irish. It was time that they should
open their eyes, and look to the results of what they
were doing; and he ihould not consider that he had
done his duty, if he did not warn the House against
what he conceived must be the inevitable result of such

a course—(( hem from the Opposition). What would
an Hon. Member, whom he saw opposite, from the North of Ire-
land, say upon this subject ? " Put down thellitholle Association,"
he knew he would say ; but was there nothing elle? He had been
accustomed to hear It coupledlin Ireland With nothing more nor less
than doubling the Army. This shewed the feeling and the expec-
tation of all parties, and he implored the Huuse to pause in this first
step of a career which must be ruinous and fatal to the empire.
Mr. LESLIE FOSTER described the Cathoiic As-
sociation as a body exercising all the functions of a
Parliament, identifying itself with the mass of the Ca-
tholic population, and being the common focus of dis-
content and irritation. It was true that the debates and

acts of the Assembly were open to the public to a cer-
tain extent ; but for the management and application
of its monies a Committee constantly sat, whose pro-
ceedings were not reported, and who, as he had been
well informed, were in daily correspondence with a
large body of men in all parts of Ireland. The nature
of the Parliamentary functions assumed by this Assem-
bly had been to fully described by his Right Hon.
Fiend, that it would be unnecessary for him again to
enumerate them to the House. The chief of these he
undoubtedly considered to be the levying of what was
called the rent. The manner in which this was done
appeared to him to be not less objectionable than the
Measure itself—he meant through the medium of the,
priests. Was it proper, he would a• kb that the chapels,
dedicated to religious purposes alui.e, should become
the theatres of a scene where all the feelings of every
political animosity and party hatred were aroused ?
Putting out of view the purposes to which such funds
might be applied, the moment the rent had been paid
by the Catholic an undue confidence was raised in his
mind as to something which was to be done in his be-
half, and an equally undue apprehension was excited
'in the mind of the Protestant; thus cleating a severance
of whatever union existed between them. The moment
ithe Catholic Rent was collected in a district, adieu to
all harmony between the two sects, and, consequently,
to the peace and tranquillity inseparable from a state
lof mutual confidence. This was one of the features of
the case which he thought imperiously called upon the
House to put the Association down. It was scarcely
necessary for him to repeat the allusion which had been
made to the invocation upon the hatred borne to
Orangemen ; be would only do so for the purpose of
sheaving its application and effect. It must be remem-
bered, that this was chiefly addressed to the Catholics
of the West and South of Ireland. He was one who
regretted that Orange Associations existed at all; and
in those parts of the kingdom they were certainly un-
known. The Catholic population there were in the ha-
bit of hearing denunciations of Orange Magistrates
and Orange Police, and Considered such parties only to
be Orangemen. But after the circulation of this ad-
dress, every one who did not subscribe to the Rent
would be considered as Orangemen by these ignorant
and deluded people; and consequently they were taught
by the Catholic Association to bear hatred against the
entire Protestant community. Let the House look to
the consequence of this, and say whether the Catholic
Association should be suffered to continue unmolested
in its career? Would not this inevitably lead to similar
feelings, and similar combinizion on the other side?
Hon. Members might argue upon speculative opinions,
in that House, but he was acquainted with the fact that
such feelings bad already been engendered in many
parts of Ireland. In one instance, the alarm created
in the minds of the Protestant inhabitants drove them
to the act of taking up arms in the expectation of being
attacked. The alarm he believed was unfounded.—
(Hear, hear, from the Opposition.) He believed it to have
been unfounded, but it was a natural consequence
growing oat of the conduct of the Association. (Cheers.)
The inhabitants of the town to which he alluded, sat
up the whole of a particular night, in constant fear of
their lives.' Was this a state of things to be tolerated?
(Cheers) Let them suppose that any accidental cir-
cumstances had occurred on that night, such as the
firing of a gun by a poacher, or the casual burning of a
cottage. The next morning would have seen the two
'sects arranged against each other in deadly mile. Was
it right, then, to leave in existence a body whose
avowed object was to sow disunion and hostility through•
out the country—to implant hatred on both sides—(on
one, they said—but he believed on both)—and thereby
,to impede and counteract whatever was proposed to be
done for the anielioration of the country ? Was .t right
to leave them Incouraging the hopes of the Catholic
peasantry by visions which could never be realized—
which could certainly never be realized by the measure
contended for by Honourable Gentlemen opposite?
Their ardour was not so great in pursuit of political
rights ; it was their belief in the spiritual superiority
of their faith, which was most readily acted upon.-r
They never would have subscribed to the lent if at had
been demanded forothat object, for they would have no
confidence in the money being so applied. The Catho.

lie AsioCiatkitl, %Astir iiisifiteti UAW,
course, and by a union with the Priests, worked Spot
the religious feelings of the people. The (Stile&
Clergy, who were supported by the peasantry at an
expense of 200,0001. per annum, levied this further sul
at the same time, and by the tame means. There wits
another powerful objection to the sets of tile AssOciii•
tion, which had. not been noticed by the tlouse. It vets
generally the pi actice of the most violent politiciaal to
respect private character, and not to enter the hounds
of domestic society. Rut this body asserted and elev.!.
cised the power of invading the privacy of life, and of
becoming the judges of a man's private conduct. Whe-
ther as a landlord to his tenant, as a father to hii AM.!,
as a host to his guest, or in whatever relative situation
he could he placed, his private conduct was to be laid
before the Association' and they denounce hilt to the
country. The practical consequence of such a denun-
ciation, in such a state of society as existed in Ireland,
schen a man was held up as a traitor or a tyrant, might
easily be conceived. Another influence of which he

complained was the unconstitutional power such a body
must r)%sess in the return of Members; an influence
which he conceived to be contrary to the freedom of
election. With regard to the claim of the Association
fur the merit of the existing tranquillity in Ireland, he
was ready to admit it in some degree. He allowed
that they had enjoined peace to all those under their
subjection ; but it was only conditionally, and until"
their claims had been laid before Parliament. The

calm they had produced was, therefore, only a state of
breathless expectation which excited a heat in the minds
of the people net to be allayed, he was sure, even by
the granting of emancipation. But he had the satis-
faction of Inoking to other causes, from which he
hoped and expected permanent prosperity and happi-
ness for Ireland. He believed that country never to
have been so well employed as at the present moment;
and that was the true cane of her tranquillity. Bri•
tish capital was already finding its way into Ireland,
and, in spite of Captain Rock, it would bring peace
and prosperity in its train. The system of exclusion
which had repressed the trade of Ireland had not been
long removed; but since that object was effected by
the. Right Hon. Member for Liverpool, a most rapid
increase had taken place. In the cotton trade such an
advance had been made, that it bid fair, in a few years, •
to exceed in extent the whole linen trade of Ireland.

The Hon. Member then stated the annual increase, as
it appeared upon the- returns of the imports and ex-
pmts. He also congratulated the House upon the im-
provement which bad followed upon the relaxation of
the Distillery Laws. There had been an increase of
prosperity in Ireland. Capital had been flowing into
the proper channel with a rapidity beyond the expecta-
tion of the most sanguine economist. Provisions were
never more abundant. The measures of Government
had promised peace and security. The Tithe Commu-
tation system had been found advantageous. He was
not unwilling to extend tranquillity to the Catholic
Association ; but it appeared to him that body occa-
sioned the interruption of tranquillity. He, for one,
could never concede the power claimed ; the firmness
et Government alone could meet the evil. When the Convention
4ss held at Duncannon and Athlone, the measures of Parliament
judiciously applied proved a remedy for disorder. It was his
Inn belie that the present Catholic Association was adverse to good
order. The elements of peace and prosperity had been springing
up in Ireland, and Parliament were sow called upon to protect, by
their wisdom and energy, all that was dear Ia that country.
Mr. JOHN WILLIAMS was convinced it was ne-
cessary to oppose a measure of such importance as that
now proposqd, at the outset, as it might lead to a dew,-
lopement. He could scarcely believe it possible it was
intended to carry it into execution, having heard of no
object of advantage it would be to Ireland, nor the
slightest intimation given of any benefits to be be-
stowed on that country ; be therefore felt it imperative
on him to make a decisive stand at the very first step.
On what grounds is it introduced into the House ?
What is the tendency of the observations he bad heard ?
He would repeat the question, and ask on what grounds
the House were called on to legislate? Whence do
they arise ? from whence are they derived ? is there no
reason ? are the Roman Catholics never to be attended
to? are they ever to be kept in expectation? and is it
on the least expression of their disappointment these
friends are to turn round on them with an equivocal
appeal to the policy of the country, which feeling is got
up for the express purpose ? Is it right to take ad-
vantage of it? In the year 1800 there was an alleged"
misconduct on the part of the Catholics, on a similar
threat eninti appearance in that country. The Ho.
aourable tirentleman delivers most unfair opinions is
imputing certain sentiments to the Roman Catholics.
He hoped tfie evil of these opinions would be coun-
teracted. An Honourable and Learned Gentleman
at one time said, that the Roman Catholics would be
justified, and must act through the medium of po-
pular assemblies, and that applause always attends the
man who takes his position in the extreme of opinions.
The state of the public mind, he (Mr. Williams), con-
tended, was to be imputed to the conduct of the Go.
vernment, who continued to hold out hopes which were
not to be realised, and to the agitation of a questites
vitally affecting the interests of the country, without
carrying it to its conclusion ; and when any ha,ty ex-
pi ession of their feeling takes place, the effect of hope
procrastinated, the reply given is, you have thrown the
impediments in the way yourselves. Suck a system is
calculated to tantalize and exasperate persons entitled
to consideration, and this feeling of exasperation can
be justified by the opinions of great men gone before,
as well as by the Right Hon. the Attorney-General
for Ireland. The Roman Calbolic people were not
fairly dealt with. It was the bounden duty of the Go-
vernment to make up their mind to act with consist-
ency ; expectation will draw down resentment and out-
rage : all means of conciliation should be adopted.—
Who, with justice, can complain of the madness of a
fever of his own creation ? There is no subject of com-
promise; the claim rests on too sacred principles to be
tampered with : the Government remain neuter, or at
least tantamount to it ; some holding out ambignons
sppraoimr_iseswohfeerhse)l.pit aisndnototetrusgenh
they have the aspect of unanimity. Tbut this dif-
ference of opinion accounts for the exasperation. which
dthiessat opnrosot.phee.crtssuljeedejs
is said to exist. Will bringing in this Bill extinguish
the animosity? Let Government not deceive itself; it
never will put it down. Is it pretended that by suffo-
cating it now, it will not flame out again? Will the
Angry mind be prevented displaying itself ? No : while
the cause of irritation prevails it will shew itself. A
radical cure mast be applied, if not, as it increases, the
army will be required to put it down. Then, as an Act
of PM liament has not been able to succeed, force must
be resorted to; and, if any one can contemplate the
contest, I do not envy him the morbid strength of his
nerves, or the weakness of his head. In the year 1777,

aounvenuou nct touitt mum for sucn a preceusut am/ IMGVG/ Win,11,61 Ilavw •••••••• ---- - - _
h. , - r-
be Right Hon. Gentleman wi,hed to make it,— been demanded foredigt object, for they wouldl have no contest, do not envy tat the morbid strength of his
e Convention in 1793 was formed with a different confidence in the money being so applied. The Catho- nerves, or the weakneu of his head. In the year 1777,
- _