Star.
London, England, 1824-03-09 00:00:00

WAI4 AND MRANS.-SUGAR-DUTIES.

On the Motion of Mr. llusiussom, the House re-
-s.Aved itself into a Committee of Ways and Means,
.11n000cx in the Chair. •
,Ur. LIUSIUSSON then rote and said, that although.
he-understcod it:was the intention of the/lonourabie
Member for Aberdeen to move for an alteration of th 4
Duties on Sugar, yet be (Mi. Iluskisson) felt it. oe4
necessary then to move, that the Duties on Sui 4;
:granted .Majesty last year, should•be cantinue4
. txorn tlie.2.ith Match inst.(lB%) 25tb March,-:18$5.1
Mr:.111.1 ME %you'd feet eittenic reluqt;nte in pressl
-ing upon las l‘lajesty's Gove:ntilrnt any Motion for th
further reduction of tares, after the •very liberal he
"bit'Obliey • which they had • Already ...shewn they nkiin
t,erpio
to propose woi.ild conduce w the triiefef di
**di orthi; country, by .le,bruing the price Grrtlial
AsisC.tsikl a, 3t ck •ahSager. 'Pte. tiut,4
fidttrilarthrt`ifit.triittg of .the:lkijittri.ous efteC;.'oPO'h-the
thujocrjAski,llutyoa tobacco, l the itieite'7
meat to smuggling ; in consequence of which the amount
of duty now itcrivt4 on that article was less than before
the iucteased duty took place. He was W. possession et

docnjnents by.which lit „could pre that the increaid
of the' clut'y Oa Irina Wad's' caused such aialittyirtution of
consumption;. as to reihice thiainount.liff. duty below
*pit it had bWen p}tvicafts tothat inereasteof duty. He
itiproaed ofthe new'lineOf policy whiefi:Minitters had
adopted. He knew they were anxious to make a begin.
(ring in it; and here was an'article on Whickatt addi-
tional duty had been laid in time of war, under pretext
of a charge for convoy, &c. and which ought therefore
to be deemed a war duty—a tax laid on' when the
finances of the country requited increase; and now that
an opportunity offered, front our being at peace and the,
prosperity of the country, it would be only just that
that additional duty should be repealed. The West In.
dor proprietors were, it was well known, in a state of
exti erne distress; it became the chityof Ministers there-
fore to ascertain if the the duty on their produce could be
lessened, from which increased consumption would, no
doubt, result ; for, by reducing the duty, the planters
would be enabled to raise the price of the article with-
out increasing it to the consumer beyond what he at
present paid, without injury to the Revenue, for the in-
crerised consumption would fully compensate for a re-
duction in the duty. Documents had been laid betoie
Parliament to prove the increased prosperity of the
country,. by the increase which had taken place in the
consumption of etciseablearticles. In considering in
what way reliefsould be best afforded to the people,
Government ought to look to sugar. It would be found
that the quantity at present consumed was not greater
than it had been in 1814: The population had since
intreased ; there was no sugar smuggled; conse-
quently the fact that the quantity now consumed was
not greater than in 1814, must be received as a proof
that the duty operated as a check upon consumption.—
To demonstrate- that fact with reference both to Eng-
land and Ireland, the *Honourable Gentleman entered
into a statement of the comparative consumption at the
awo periods: The tax laid on during the war was
per cwt. The war was now over, and there was no
reason why it should be continued, but he should only
move for a reduction of 7s. per cwt. on the duty on sugar,
namely, from 275. per cwt to 20s. There was a surplus
revenue of upwards of somo,oooi. which was called a
Sinking Fund, and even should that fund be broken in
upon to the amount of one or 200,0001. by the measure
which he meaut to propose, Government would not
be doing justice to the West India Planters if it hesi-
tated on that account to telieve them to that extent. It
was true, he might be told, that relief had already been
given to the West India Interests—the relief given was
paltry—it was only 'laid. per gallon on rum, which
could be of little or no consequence, excluded as that
article had bhen from Ireland and Scotland by the Acts
of last Session, against which the redtietion of ISO. was
not an equivalent. The check given to the consumption
by the increase of the duty could not be questioned.—
The West India interests were at present distressed be-
yond any former example—the means of relieving them
were at hand, on which account he hoped for the support
of the Committee. The *Honourable Gentleman tiled
concluded by moving that the duty on sugar be reduced
from 275. to 20s. per cwt.
Mr. BARING said, it was the duty of the House to
afford relief from taxation wherever distress was mani-
fested, and wherever relief was practicable. The House
had acted on that principle wtth respect to agriculture,
and it was the duty of the House to extend that
prihci-
pie to all other classes where relief could be afforded
conveniently with the general interests. If, therefore, it
could' be shewn to him that the reduction of die duty on
augar cOedd ache** the West-India planters, and that
that reduction did not interfere With the general inte-
rests, he for one would support the motiq'n before the
House; but at the same time he felt bound to look at
the general state of the funds,
.and to oppose the repeal
iof any tax until convinced that the country could spare
lahatomount. He was of opinion that the country
:could not spare the sum required by the Motion- of the
*Honourable Gentleman ; and even if the country could
'afford that amount there were other objects to which it
could be applied with more advantage to the people.—
it was remarkable, that, while the table of the House
Was loaded with Petitions for the repeal of various taxes;
trot one had been presented from any part of the country
'whatever for a reduction of the duty on sugar. \Vas he
'not therefore justified in assuming that the reduction was
:not an• Object with the people'? (Hear). The-next' ques-
'don to be considered was, whether the Seduction sought.
'for was calculated to relieve the West India planters,
by encouraging consumption? He did-not think that it
was, for the reduction proPoted would amount to little
more than a halfpenny in the,tiound ; the reduction
would not, therefore, he:Productive of thestnallest re-
lief to the planter. The EfonOttrable•Gentleinan had re-
fared to the cousumption of sugar, which lie (slr.
Baring) would contend was,: greater •in England, con-
sidering the amount of its population, than in any other!
country in the world ; for example, the consumption of
France was not half that of England. He(Mr. Baring)
for these reasons could not anticipate any advantage
from the proposed reduction. But he would say,wincli
he did from the best feelings toward: all the interests
concerned, that there was a mode by' which much more
benefit might be given to the West India planter than
by the Motion of the Honourable Gentleman. From
the present priCe of barley, and the likelihood• of its
continuing to increase, he would pnt it to the Country
Gentlemen themselves' if they would not -consult their
own interests by doing, an act of justice to a class who
were well known to be in a state,of distress ? If the
markets'should operofoi the admission of foreign grain
(and the prices at present relehed;Seiy nearly to that at
which importation mtatolloair)," therevai no knowing
where importation ..would atop. Be Should • therefofe
call upon. the Agriculturists to permit distillation from:
ilgar—Wear.-itear). The only difficulty thi(piesented
itself to him was to fix the time when that operation
shimldSommence. The present was the best period foe
distillitigi there remained indeed 'only two months of
the-tiroe;ut which distillation could be carried on ; and
it was.avell worth the attention of Government to direct
its attention to a measure so well calculated to avert
frono'the agriculturist a threatened evil, and give to the
West Indiallanter a certain relief. After the next two
mouths should elapse, the quantity. of barley which dis-
tillers vould consume was comparatively small; it would
therefore be a great boon-to the planter, and little loss to
the agriculturist to suffer at theexpiration of that pet iod
distillation from sugar. He was perfectly • aware that
there was no ;great stock of sugar at present on hand,
Anil that a scarcity might be apprehended should dis-
tillation from sugar be permitted.; but it ought to ire re--
.collected that this was about the;titne- ar which the sup-
plies usually arrived front the:Colonies, arid was-•Conse-
queutly the period at which the stock on hand, is gene-
rally lowest. For these reasons he thought:Government
ought to see if the measure he suggested was practicable
and likely to be beneficial.

aalaradietilit;l4tria"3had said,
in the fist in-
fhperoHpoonenable 'Member for
stain., upon the observattone that had been made on
tile Tobacco Duties. lie 3146 introduced the 'subject of,
the \Vine-Duties. Now, if he (Mr. ftoskiSaon) under-
stood the stratements respecting the Tobacco trade,
-they went to-prove that the duties on that article
tended to increase smuggling—and the Honourable
Member fas'Aberdeen had himself admitted thatahere
was no sugar smuggled ; consequently. admitting that ,
the whole duty was levied, therefore the Honourable
Gentleman's argument respecting Tobacco did ma
apply. The argument of the. Honourable Gentlemani
respecting wine, that high duty had the effect of dimi-,
nishing the quantity consumed; was not more fortandlea
for no such diminution had takenvlice. The Honoura
able Gentleman, had to- his (Mr. Huskiison%) surprise,
said that DO increase in the consumption of sugar had'
taken place, since 1814. gO far frosts that being the
fact, there was no article the cbrisumptioa cf ahich•had
so much increased within that period as sugar. He
did not wish to detain the House unnecessarily ; but he
felt it necessary to refer to some particulars to prove
that the statements of the Honourable Gentleman were
not colt ect. The average consumption for three years
ending in 1817, was 2,214,000 cwt. The consumption of
the three years ending in 1822, was 2,762;000 cart. being
an increase of 648,000 cwt. in the compass of about seven'
years, or 20 per cent. on the consumption' of the article.
But the increase in the last year was still mare extrema'
dinary, and he would quote it from a document that
would in a very short time be ready for delivery to the
Honourable Gentleman and the House. By that docu.
anent it would appear that the quantity consumed in the
year ending the sth of January, 1824, was no less than
3,130,000 cwt. being an increase of consumption to the
extent of forty per cent. more than it .was nine years ago.
The Honoutable Gentleman had admitted that there
was no such thing as smuggled sugar; it was apparent,
therefore, that the increase of consumption had not been,
impeded by the duty complained of. In that calculation
he took the United Kingdom into view. There wete cir-
cumstances in the state of Ireland which did not entitle '
it to a comparison with England. The people of that
country were unfortunately in a state of such distresses
to put the consumption of sugar almost beyond their
reach—(hear, hear.)—But was the dimintition of one
halfpenny in the pound in the price of sugar calculates
to effect their relief, and enable-them to become eon-,
-so mers of sugar ? lie shoull be glad, with the permission ,
of the Committee, to compare u hat had been the progres- '
si re state of consumption with the progressive state of sup-
ply.
The supply from the old colonies of Great Britain, be
meant the Colonies held by the Crown in the year 1792,
had increased since the year 1814, by no less a quantity
than 322,000 cwt. from the new Colonies, 306,000 cwt.
being a total increase of supply in nine years, from old
and new Colonies, of 628,000 cwt. The increased con-
sumption was on the other hand 800,000 cwt. above the
increased supply. That must have been some allevie..
tion of the distress of the Colonies ; and should the
country continue tp increase in prosperity as it had done;l
and he saw no reason for expecting the contrary, that
time was not fardistant when the consumption of sugar
(would hilly equal the power of producing it. The last
tear the increase of demand for supplying the foreign
4trarket amounted to 77,000 cwt. above that for the same
Market in .1814; while the increased supply for the
home market in the same year exceeded anything we
I had on record respecting the home demand or supply
from our West India Wellies. The time was not far
distant, be therefore argued, when we should have an'
ideqaate demand for the produce of our West India
islands. It was worthy of remark, that this calculation
Iw, it would appear, well founded, halm a mere ye-
Ireaenee to the price of sugar in the three last years: In ,
Itte first of these years the price was on the average,
about 31s. in thesnext year 925. 10d. and in the last
'us high as 335. 101 d. This was the result, •no doubt,
taf 'an inateasing temand, and * decrease of the stock
en hand. It is not likely, from circumstances known
to most persons interested, that we should have any
increase of supply from "the old Colonies, whilst it,
was probable, that from the new Colonies, and par-
ticularly Demerara, an increased supply of sugar
would be paired in upon the market, for some time
Ito -come, from the circumstance of the lands appropri-
ated to cultivation being turned intosugar plantations.
'Under such circumstances it was fair to expect the sup-
ply iimildaanly Meet the growing consumption of this
country. This growth of consumption was the result
;of incieasedcomfoit, for it was impossible, if' the people
of this country were in indigence or declining, that an
article like sugar, which might be pronounced to be the
'link betvieen necessaries and luxuries,;thetild be a SUO•
.ject of increased demand. To prove th tinned pro-
gress of the demand, it was only gra:444'400 state,
that in the year 1791 the supply was-ale-more than
1;400,000 cwt. for both England anti ; and
though the interval up to 1814 had been almost an un-
intertupred period of war, still the consumption was
more than doubled on the average of the last three
years: As the duty in 1791 was about one-half of what
it was maw, it was clear that the increase of demand
arose out of the general improvement of our condition
'and the increase of the comforts of life. Now this was so
striLiagly the fact, that it was adtnitced that no coun-
try in Europe, though three times the extent of Eug-
led, used an equal quantity of sugar. With regard'
to the suggestion of the Hon. Member. (Mr. Baring) to
ease the West India trade by admitting sugar for the
purpose of distillation in thia country, he confessed he
felt no objection to it, in principle. He should be glad,
it cOvild be settled in a manner' agreeable to those;
~olio were engaged in the spirit trade ; ;but in the pre-
.sent Session he was very little inclined to hold out
'topes of its being brOugg
,into action, as there were
:now only six weeks to come of the 'distillery season.
He had usually found, from his experience in the House
and at the Treasury, that the trade in such cases sre-
quired so much tia.e to clear out the wash and grain.
then in proceas of being distilled,- that it would be al.
most impossible that this measure of relief could this
Session be acted upon with the deihed effect, consider.,
ing that the distillery sea son would expire in six weeks
mole. The expedient was suggested of admitting sugar
into our ports, whilst the ports were closed against the
importation of barley from foreign countries, so . that
they might be available together to the distiller, and let
the distiller choose which he • zonsidered best for his
own advantage. He did not think that practicable;
but he should be glad if it turned.out as had been an-
ticipated by the Honourable Medaber:fsr Taunton. One
thing he was glad to sec admitted—namely, that the
stock of sugars. had decreased; and that, as there was
not above six weeks supply in the...country, taking the
fiareign.demand into consideration, notwithstanding the,
new sugars wonla now be coming in; still the stock-cei
hand would [o:illl.4C,to increase-. lie trusted that lie

had made out a ca.-.,6 to shew that there was hot Sufficient
ground for the application now made to reduce the du-
ties on sugar,-with a view to relieve the West India met-
,.chants and planters ; and he felt satisfied that they ought
to feel encoutageneent from the cmitinned progre-sive
increase of consumption of We.t India produce, which
would no doubt operate asbeneildelly on their property
ass the increased_ demand fur home produce had opon
the property cf the growers of corn'and the agricultural
body here,
_who had long. ceased to feel the pressure of
which the House had two years ago heard so mild,. It
-was well known that the British market was the best for
,sugar. And as wpm; the project of reducing the duties
on that article was at once given up in the lutist Prudent
'manner by the West India merchants, when they weee
etude ac qu i aced that even a reduction ,o! ley en shillings.
:would amount to a loss to the Revenue of upwards of
,a million, the trade nppearing-to think the reduction of
the stock on hand would be a still greater boon. The
quantity; of rum impeited into Ireland never littering
etceeded 40,000 gallons, it was clear that little was
M be apprehended . from . a decrea,,e of supply to
that country, which had always manifested so decic'et
a preference for the native—(A Lank)—liquor. He
had only further to state, that it had-been improperly
argued that turn ought to be aroeed wastage, whiele
was proper to all other articles. Now the fact was, that
rum ss as the only article to which it had been givers;
and that exclusively, and that concession had been made
to this article in consequence of the piessureexcerienced
by the trade of those Colonies. The merchants were
compelled to bring it to this country to prevebeits eva-
poration in the hotter climate; but being all wed t
bond it in the warehouses of the Customs, it was dear
that they received a horn and a benefit, and the•efore
sti ictncss, as it saved wasting, they er ere not entitled
to any such allowance; nor ought the Revenue to take
a lesser duty than that arising out of the whole quan-
tity originally bonded ; because if siith a principle were
generally admitted, it would open an indefinite ground
of fraud and loss to the Ite.venite. In other conlitiles,
where the bonding system was acted on, as in the United
States, that had been always the principle acted eh, •so
that the Revenue should not suffer by the indulgence.
It was only in the case of the West Indian proprietors
that this sound principle had been departed 'corn by our
revenue laws. The indulgence oas the mote material
and considerable when he assured the House, that for
every shilling duty deducted on each gallon there ac-
crued to the Public Revenue a lo,s of 1.50,000/. by tha
diminution of duty receive.-.. Orr ail these considers- •
tions he felt it impossible to agree to the motion.
Mr. ELLIS observed, that on a fair compariem of
the two proposed measures before the House, he felt the
scale must preponderate in favour of the concession of
-the Right Ilonoin aisle Gentleman (Nir. Huskissen) re-
lative to rum, in prefei et:cc to the proposed !eduction
of the duties on sugar. Ile should hare been glad to
find that both might be cart led into effect.-The depres•
sion on both articles entitled them to redress in repot-
tion to the measure of their distress. Ile did not now
affect to give any opinion on the policy of the Coln
Laws; but he must urge that if a measure sods as that
now hinted at should be proved on examination to be
conducive to the alleviation of the diatreeeol4 wienced
by the West India planters in admitting sog.si jointly
to be employed in the di tilleries. it ought ~os, tied he
hoped,confidently it would not, excite any j usy in
the minds of the coin-growers he; e—t Hear, heat.)-rile
hoped the pretensions of the Right Honourable kitentle.-
non would prove true, and that the country would Soon-
be able to absorb all the surplus supply. He was in-
clined to try the experiment dui ing the next year of the
Right Honourable Gentleman's recommendation, and
he should on that account vote against any change
taking place at present.
Mr. ELLICE meant to vote kir the motion of his Ho-
nourable Friend (Mr. Hume). He objected genesaily
to the reasons assigned for the increase of consumption
of West India produce. He wOul,d not ask any pledge
of Government, but simply that they would give the
subject their mature consideration, whether it would not
be advisable to provide for permitting sug.ai to be dis-
tilled whenever, from the prices, it might be l.kely that
the country would he inundated by a large import of
barley from foreign countries ? With that understanding
he 'should beg his Honourable Fr tend to withdraw his
motion. One thing he shou'd mention-before he sat
clown,-which mote thee anything p:oved .how muchthe
West India-merchants must feel 'the depreciation lb the
value of their property since the year 1791. In that,
year, although the duty was not one-balf of that which
rum now paid, the price obtained for rum was as much
as was paid•for it.at the present day, although it bore
double the duty.
Mr. CALCRAFT saw no reason that sugar should
'not be admitted in common with bailey into our distil-
leries. It appeared thews:amity consumed had increased,
if he understood the'Rrett•Hon..Gentkman, in propor-
,tion as the ditty- increased.
Mr. HUSKISSON.—I said the Colonies had pro-
, duced a greater relative surplus supply in 181+ than in
180. This proved that a less relative excess of supply
was created now, taking the increasing consumption
into consideration, theta had takeneslace in Mt. Hence
he had contended, that if we went on at the wine ratio.
Of consumption and supply, at the end of two or three
years there would be no surplus beyond what would be
eabsorbed in the ordinary coneamption. All these cal-
culations to- which'ho had alluded were already .before
the House, with the exception of List year, and front
.dose it would appear that the reduction was taking
place at the rate of 1.:0 per cent. up to the beginning of
last year, since ee.ich it amounted to 40 I:er. cene... A
difficulty did exist at present from the state of our ;briar
Laws ; but that could easily be removed if the [;acne
were of opinion that sugar shoeld be used in distilla-
tion, when the rate of iearley was tufficientlyhigh to
open the ports to foreign bailey. Ile could certainly
sec no objection to this proposal. however as barley
was now 365. a qua:ter and it must teach 40e before
the ports would be open, the Committee would see that
the distillery season would be over befote the expira-
tion of the duets months during which the portswoall
continue open.
Mr. C.ALCRAFT observed, that the barley questica
would he one which must Le determined on further
discussion, and rest with his Majesty's Government.
Mr. 13ENETT contended that the tiouri.hing con•
dition of agricultural property hod been excessively
over-rated. It was scarcely extricated-from its ditficie-
t;es. It the runs were admitted tuts the distilleries, it
roust thereby stop the distillation from corn. and he had
heard from a rectifying distiller, hat, what was mire
alarming, by a very simple ptucesi, the rectifier could
change all the sum.into gin.
Mr. iII_I:3KISSON said there were undoubeeelly many
diflieuittes in the way, and but for theni he should nave

1

r

mode of relief to take
conaered it to Iwo desirable a
it from the rum acfronethe sugar.
Mr. BENETT.—Then amto understand that the
lafier is to be empowered to melte the rum into gin.
Tee.'
Is - -
?—(A loud laugh).
Mr. HUSKISSON disclaimed having said so.
fir. BRIGHT ea; of opinion that it
was not the in.
toot of the West India Prop-tietors, the question should
be pressed further at present. He was not as sanguine
ie les expectations with reseect to the future prosperity
c tae West India interest as the Right Hollow able
Gentlemen (Mr. Haskissoa). That, heweeer, was no
Tom why he should reject tepartial good. Ilc thoeght
;t India produce should be allowed to remain it the
eree relative situation to Ireland as it stood last year.
To would not say the same with reepect to Scotland,
be,:at!.e there the consumption of ruin had greatly di.
einOaml. The duties should be so arranged as not to
ocinde West India rum from the teareets of Ireland
Seetland. In the latter, it was once almost exclu-
iaely used. People would prefer it tar whiskey if it
ould be had as cheap; and he thought it would benefit
rte people of Ireland if the use of rum prevailed them
place of whiskey. •
Mr. F. LEWIS said, the West Lelia interests need
ut be alarmed at the change introde-.ed in the distillery
aws of Scotland and Ireland, because the consumption
of rum was little-in Scotland, and still less in Ireland.
The truth was, that the nominal duty of ss. 6d. was
ever collected in Ireland. The bona fide duty of 2s.
as now collected, would be as large in amount as the'
former nominal one of .si. 6J. He rose for the purpose
ef guarding against the idea of his being considered
approving of the measure of allowing distillation from
sugar when barley reached the price at which iniportae
Lion was allowed. When difficulties arose, he did not
vOll to have them lightened by shifting the burthen
,o rely from' one class to another. %%ley not spread over
tie whole surface of the community the weight which
it was thus proposed to throw on the growers of barley.
Would not every gallon of rum sold in this trimmer
operate to the prejerece of the barley grower?—(A cry
op, No," from a Aleober on the Upposilion side). It
rust have that effect, because the i intim toticet of sot eign
boiey was never very great. Whatever the impcntation
night be, it must injure the barley growers at homd to
be exposed to the competition not only of the foreign
sewer, but also of the West India interest. His ideo
tee, that it would be better, when the relief of any par-
ticular interest was proposed, to distribute the but then
e'er the whole surface of the community.
Mr. H. SUMNER said, he hoped the Hon. Member
for Aberdeen would withdraw hls Amendment.. He
did not think it could injure the agricultural interests to
allow distillation from sugar when barley reached the
price at. which foreign corn might be introduced. Eves'
trough ;it might lord to some disadvantage, he thought
ti e aericultural interest should not hesitate to make
some sacrifice, e hen another important public interest
vos tc be benefited—(llear). The question appeared to
le. whether they would grant an advantage to the fo-
oien grosser of barley, or to the West India planter? •
hr. ROBERTSON said, he did not think the remis-
s;en ef the duty oe iton ssould be productive of any
adeantage to the %Vela India iinerest.
Mr. MANNING said, he approved of the proposie
Lion fur alloys ing distill Ation from sugar. Nothing seemed
to him mote cleat than the justice and propriety of giv-
ing advantage to the %Vest India planter, in preference
to the foreign grasser of barley. All they asked was
to be allowed to come into the market when bailey
reached the price at which impot tation was allowed. He
hid the House would take the subject seriously into
their consideration. The West India interests were now
in great distress. He knew many instances of estates on
which the produce was not sufficient to meet the ex-
petee of maintaining negroes to raise it.
Mr. PLUMMER supported the proposition for al-
lowing distillation from sugar, when barley reached the
importing price.
Sir I. COFFIN said the proposed concession on the
part of the Administration was very liberal to the West
Inch interests. If the Member for Aberdeen pressed
the Amendment he should feel it his duty to oppose it.
Mr. WHITNIORE said, that the present situation of
the Wee India interests induced him to come to the re-
solutioe of not be inging. forward this Session any Mo-
tioe relative to East India sugar. All the evils.he pre-
dieted last year relative to the priiate trade to Itedia
had been realised.. Those engaged in it were now im-
parting hard cola, from the impossibility of obtaining
any other return. If this state of things continued the
trade could not be carried 'on.
Mr. 111.; ME said, the Member for Taunton (Mr. Baring)
had oliserved that no other country consumed so much
sugar in proportion as England. That might be true,
but we-, there any other count' y that consumed so much
tea? AP he (Mt. Hume) meant to say was, that the:con-
sumption did not advance as they had a right to expect.
The documents from which he argued came up to the
year 189.2, and they differed so widely from the state-
ments of the Right Honourable Gentleman (Nlr. Hos-
-1 loon), that the Right llonourable Gentleman must have'
iecluded in his accopnt of consumption the quantity ex-
rotted. Had the consumption regularly ieci eased with
the reduction of price, it should have been much greater.
The %Vest India interests were under a delusion if they
supposed that the hope of increased consumption held
out by the ROA lion. Gentleman would be realised.
He thought the West India planters themselves had a
right to cell for the reduction of duty which he now
proposed. But if they were determined not to relieve
themselves, he thought, at least, that the Public had a
ll3llt to expect it.
Mr. C. GRANT said, that if the productions of the
Right liaeourable Gentleman (Mr. Iluelieson) wets not
remised, he hoped the Member for Aberdeen would
give the house an opportunity next Session of express-
tlelr opieiens again on the subject. It they should
not Lc tedised, he should be prepared to seypart his
eropositi et for reducing the duty.
Mr• (iORDON said it must appear extraordinary if
i: should go abroad that all those connected weer the
West ladia interest in that House should abstain from
expressieg any wish to have the duty reduced. Ile
thought it tiolit to declare that there had been an un-
derstanding on this subject between the Government
and the West India interest. The Act by which a vit.
teal bounty of Ss. per cwt. was allowed on refuted
sugars, was to cease un the 4th of July next. It was in
effect a bounty, because though sus. was the rear duty
Imposed no more than 275. was taken. It was intimated
to the West India Body that if they abstained nom sup-
lafing the proposition of the Member for Aberdeen„
this b misty would not be withdraWo, but that other-
wise there would be great difficulty in renewing the
Act that was to expire Do the 4th of July. It was a
matter of some surprise to him why this bounty should
be continued to the West India interest, when Ministers

professed •to act upon principles hostile to the system of
bounties. He did not know v..hither he should sappoit
any proposition for the continuance of this bounty be-
yond the 4th July, because it would be inconsistent with
those commercial.rrinciples on which he wished to act.
Mr. HUME withdrew hi; amendment.—The resllu-
tion was then arced to, and the report ordered to be
received to•morrow.

cusroNts.
On the neition of Mr. flebrussov the House went
into a Committee on the Customs Acts. The SPEAKER
!laving left the Chair,
HUSKISSON sail, beat though his Right Ho-
nourable Friend, 'the Chancellor of the Exchequer,
with that perspicuity so peculiarly his own, had, when
he hrought for ward his statement relative to the finances
of the country, explained the grounds of those altera-
tions he proposed in the laws affecting the impbrtation
of silk, still, in consequence of the objections that had
been raised both in and out of doors, and of the great
importance of the sulject itself, he tressed, however
unable to follow his 'light Ilononrable Friend in clear-
ness of detail, that the llouse would indulge him while
he went into those statements connected with the sub-
ject. 'ro the geacral plan there were two kinds of
ob-
jection. The first were the objections of those- who
thought, that being iu a situation to afford some
relief to the country, it I:1101dd, be effected by the
removal bf direct taxation. The other class of objec-
tors were those who wished the laws affecting the bilk
trade to remain as they were. With respect to die first
class of objections, it did appear to him that the course •
pursued by Government was that most conducive to the
advancement of the various intro ests of the community.
When it was felt, after the close of the war, that they
were ina situation to lighten the burthens of the people,
they were fist bound to look to those' classes who were
more immediately and more deeply affected by the,
duties on consumption. It was with this view that
the taxes on malt, leather, and salt were.reduced, and
though last, not least in operation, that it was pro-
posed to continue the lottery no longer—Wear, hear).
Last year a considerable reduction took place in those
direct. taxes affecting the middie and
_better classes.
Having thus extended relief to neatly the amount of
seven millions by the repeal of those taxes, it miga he
asked why they did not proceed still further in what
appeared to many to be the most desirable plan of re-
Het, that Was by-a further reduction of direct taxes? It
was said that nothing could be more easy than the adop-
tion of such a plan, and certainly it coultf.nOt be plea-
sant to the feelings of those whose duty it,'Was to watch
over the public interests to proceed upon principles that
might appear incompatible with the wishes of the pub-
lic. However, when his Majesty's Ministers found that
they were in a situation to remit something. more of the
burthens of the country, the question arose whether they
should not begin to act on principles the justice and po
lily of which were generally admittel, and by so acting
give increased energy and efFat to industry and cora-
merce ? The great alterations that were rapidly taking
place in the sseneral colonial system of the world, and
the new channels which were thereby opened for va-
rious branches of trade, made it incumbent upon the
.Government of this country td consider whether some-
thing might not be done to secure for it a fair share in
the markets that were thrown open to general competition.
At this moment the Provinces of South America %Tie
still sir uggiing to secure their independence of the mother
country, and in an uasettied state as regarded their po-
litical condition t• but we knew that they never could
return to their former state of subjection ; and when we
looked at the present condition of the United. States,
though possibly the South American Provinces might
not possess the same advantages, yet, considering the
state of population, the climate, the products, and other
natural adv:urages which belonged to those provinces,
it was impossible not to hope that under. any system
which promised them a fair opportunity and proper
facilitie, for the developernent of their resources, ia-
calculable advantages might be derived from an inter-
course with them, which would increase with their
growing wealth and prosperity. It well becomes the
Government of this country, under all ,these circum-
stances, to inquire whether, there being but a very
small amount of excess of revenue which it could re-
mit consistently with the • princieles of finance which
had been sanctioned by Parliament, and upon which
the calculations of his Right lion. Friend were founded,
it was worth while to forego the advantagei which
might he derived from the removal of the checks
which fettered an important branch of trade, for
the sake *if a trifling remission of taxes?— He
must own that until it had been stated in that House
that, what he viewed as disadvantageous under
which the silk trade was labouring were not so-consi-
dered by those who were concerned in that trade, and
that those •persons who were most immediately inte-
rested did not wish for any change in the laws affecting
the trade, he should have felt exceedingly surprised that
any person engaged in that trade should not most
anxiously have wished to be relieved from the shackles
wherewith it was bound. lie remembered that in the
last'Sesson of Parliament almost all the persons engaged
in that trade came to the House, amid petitioned to be
relieved from the restraints under which they laboured.
The Right Honourable Gentleman then m,ead an extract
how a Petition presented in the last Session by the Ho-
nourable Member for the City of London (Mr. T. Wil-
son) from the silk-manufacturers of the City of London,
stating that impertant as the manufacture of silk was
acknowledged to be, and greatly improved as it then
was, it was still greatly deptesbed, and prevented by the
existing laws horn advancing to the height to which it
might he carried ; and expressing their confidence that,
if the restrictions of which they complained were re-
moved, it might yet be placed in a state ultimately to
triumph 'over .foreign competition, and that silk, like
cotton, might be rendered one of the staple manufac-
tures of the co untry —(I leur, hear). His Right Hon.
Friead, therefore, came to the House under the
conviction that this trade was greatly depressed by the
system under which the duties were collected, and that
it ought to be entirely new regulated. He did not think
that the manufacture of a raw material imported from
a foreign country subject to a heavy duty, carried on at
a large advance of capital, and subject to a system of
tei.riations restricting the price of labour, was one
which could becarried oa to advantage. The lloaour.
able Member fur Taunton (Mr. Baring), in spealsing of
this subject, had said, that this was not a native .manu-
facture, and therefore ought not to be encouraged ; in-
timating that manufactures, like fruits, could only be
brown in particular places; and, in the same breath,
he had informed them, that in Taunton (the 13.,rough
which he represented), the only manufacture carried On
at present Was that Of silk, whereas, thirty
or forty years
ago, the only manufacture there was woollen, which
had now wholly disappeared. He (Mr. Iluskisson) did

not Anaw who
• tepresentect that *respectable borough
forty years ago in that House. It Might be some lead-
ing merchant, some friend of' free trade, some disciple
of Dr. Adam Smith, whose book was published about
that peliod ; and if the Chancellor of the Exchequer of
that dee had proposed to relieve the cotton manufacurel
from restrictions such as those which now clogged the
silk trade, he
p e mean'swwith
other to e" might have objected deft it was not a
countriesdbl
native manufacture, and that it would be impossible by
any
eittoiabfenceairgrniedin(at
mn
arkets sh
etl nct "°1 enh);
have preferred encouraging
the manufacture of wool,
which was an article of our • native
gore th, and he might
have appealed, in suppoi t of his argument, to the policy
of our ancestors, who compelled even the shroad ot the
deiiti to be made of woollen. I: • ortunate'n• for the
woollen manufacture of this country, it never labomel
under the restrictions to which both the cotton and silk
manufactures have been subject. Ile begreei the atten-t
tion of the Committee to the progress which had been.
made by the cotton manufacture, and from that they
nilalit infer the wive:lenge likely to be cheered to.
the silk manufacture from being pl iced upon a similar
footing. It was perfectly true, that forty leers- ago
woollen was the staple manufacture of this country.
By•the Custren-home returns, it appeered that ie the
year 1780 the whole of the cooon menufactuie of all
kinds expoeted anieented to 375,000 t. In the year
1785, which was two years after the return to a seve of
peace, when the country no lenge: felt the oppressive
operation of the war, the whole export of cotton memo',
factures of all kinds amounted to no more than 864e0001.
while the amount of the wo.,llen manufacture exported
in the same year amnunte,l to nearly four millions;
being nearly five to one in tevorir of the native over the
foreign raw material. From that time to the present
the increase in the expos t of cotton goods had been sur-
prising. In the year 1822 it amounted to 27,337.0001-
being mme than forty times its arneu it forty years ego;
whereas the export of woollees ie the same year was
only six millioas, being oily onc-fourth of the export of
cotton goods. Ilene might be seen an instance of the
advantages of freedom of trade, and of the beneficial
operation of institutions calculated to give a free direc-
tion to the employment of capital, and free scope to the
industry of the country. Ile had oaly stated the growth
of the cotton manufacture as related tA the expo' mid
the amounts he had given setc taken from the official
returns, which the Committee were a ."are were rather.
higher than the actual value in the home market. Ile
had however made inquiries, aid. according to the best
information he had been able to obtain, he believed he
,
was not overstating it when Le said that the actual
value of the whole cotton manufacture of the country,
for eeportetion-and for home consumption, in the List
year amounted to thirty-twos. millions. The 'House
might ask how the increase of the cotton manufacture
applied in argument to the manufacture of silk. . He
Believed he might state, that them mufacture oc cotton
liroduchig thirty-two millions did not consume five
millione of raw material ; the.remainder must there-
fore be made up of the price of lehane and the profit
upon the capital employed. He would ask whether, if
the cotton manufacture had remained subject to re,or ic-
tivelaws such as now operated 'upon the silk manufac-
ture, the country would have been able to support those •
exertions which had enabled it to carry on the late war ?
It was only to the increased activity of its industry and
trade that the coneo'y could look for any effectual re-
lieffren taxation and. for resources to carry on any fu•
Lure war. The silk trade at present was suffering all
the effects naturally produced by monopoly, which was
always chilling; :led benumbing in its operations. The
effect of prohibitory laws was always to destroy compe-
tition and to. prevent improvement.
.Notewere the evils
of such a system confine.l to the trade itself. What could
be more odious in principle than the laws which were ne-
cessary to supp wt it? What law could be so incoe genial
to the I eeliegs of Englishmen as that which enabled a Cus-
tom-house ()dicer to eater his house, or detain his cart iage,
if he were travelling, to search it for contraband articles?
And what cold. be less _desirable than the encourage-
ment held out to the violation of the laws? The higher
orders would have foreign silks if they could get them,
and the lower orders naturally would procure them as
long as they could find purchasers. He bad heard it
said, in allusion et) the Game Laws, " if you will have
game, you must have poachers ;". and so it was in this
case—if. they would have foreign silks, they must also
have smugglers. It had been stated by the n,auufac-
turers themselves, that any qaantity of prohibited goods
could be had in town at a premium of 15 per cent.
and yet the same persons, when they heard of a proposal
to protect them by an ad valorem duty of 30 per tent.
cried out that that was no protection. Two American
Gentlemen who were examined before the Lords' Com-
mittee, on being asked what was the difference beteeen
silk goods of French manufacture and those of English
manufacture, when brought to a competition in the
.mar kets, answered, that in some few cases it might be
.30 per cent. on black silks in general it was about
20 per cent. and on ribbons
.25 per cent. Mr. Hale,
a silk manufacturer, of Spitaltields, stated 'in his evi-
e'.ente -before the Committee, that " when be was in
Paris, certain parties, having no idea that he was a
manufacturer, offeied for a premium of 'from 10 -to
20 per cent. to insure the delivery of manufactured
silks to any amount is any part of London." Ile also
added, that mauj French good: found their way into
this country ; but he did not consider that an evil, for
there was a disposition in men), persons to prefer any
thing that came from France; and ashen a French
article fonitd its way into England, the pattern was im-
Inediately Copied ; and where there was one real Fiends
article wdrn, there were a thousand English imitations
lof the-same pattern. "It was," he also said, " not un-
common for art English manufacturer tit imitate a
French article and send it down to Brighton, where, by
means of fish-women and smuggle: e large quantities
were disposed of at a higher price as . French goods,
than they'.woald have fetched as English manufac•
tures." Could it theta be contended, when a profit
could be derived front such a competition oith
French goods, which could be introduced in any
quantity at a risk of Ten per Cent. that any evil could',
be feared horn a removal of the prohibition, and the
substitution of a protecting duty of Thitty per Cent.?
He had that morning held a consultation with a elepu-
tetion from the silk manufacturers of Manchester, who
stated that if a iitae time were eiven them to complete
their arrangements, hey would not fear competition
With France or any other country—(lfate hear). lie
was aware that he should be told that the persons en-
gaged in the trade were alter all the best judges of
their own interests. He felt • the greatest deference for
the opinions ot those who, from their c,',nnection with
any pat tioeilar branch of trade. and their experience
in
it, were qualified to speak of that iii which they we:e
engaged; but he did riot clink it at all inconsieteut with

I

a proper degree of 'deference to their judgment in :he.
niatter which more particulagle_coneerned thenze to.
doubt whether persons so situaiel were theiAlettees
of what was beet for the interest's of the puhlicirt.y,estee
ral. He had no doubt that what he was ab ea tO erdpose
W•onld mates 'ally affect the interests of some individuals.;
brokers and deralcee in silk, for instance, would be nf-
fected,and doubtless would he much More inclined to sue-
port him in a proposal to augment the prohibitory duty.
In all cases where any change was introduced in the
commercial regulations of the country, there were inte-
rests which must be affected ; what was to he consi-
dered, therefore, was the effect on the interests of the
Public generally. He knew that great activity bad been
used in promoting a feeling on this tuhject out of doors
by those who derived an advantage from the illicit traf-
fic in prohibited goods; and he feared that when the
prohibition was remcved, the fancy for particular, arti-
cles would he taken away. Those who wereengap,ed in
Nosiness with ladies maids, and through them is eh
their mistressee formed, he was convinced, not the least
important pa*rt of the confederacy. It was contended
in
all the petitions on this suhject, that more time at lest
oueht to be given; to enable these in the trade to guard
against the ill consequences of a sadden change. But
against delay there Was this argument, that if? the pe-
riod 'Of the elteratiae.were pensioned the consumer
world delay his purchases, in the Voiles of making them
with greater advantage at the•expiration of the period.
The decrease of sale; which would thus be occasiatred
would check the activity of the m:utti frt:etarevie sr,s
outad
throw a great number of the operative
of employ. If it were proposed .graduelly to bring
about the alteration, the effect would be the same.—
fle coUl l assure the Committee, that his Majesty Ge-
velum:lt had given their best caxideration to the sub-
ject,:and the iesult of such censidei that they
con,idered it the wisest plan, in order to remove alhdis-
quietude hem these who laboured ler their daily sub-
sistence, as well as to render the remie,icel of the duty
as effectuel and speedy as possible, that such remission
should take place, not from the rich of July n -At, as. was
criginally contemplated, but as early as the 25th of the
present month—(/year, hear.)—By adoeting this course
his Majesty's Government conceived that they should,
in a great measure, prevent the stagnation of trade,
and while they gave full employment to the labouring
artisan, would be affotding to the manufacturer afresh
stimulus to extend his speculations. Another difficulty
had however suggested- itself, of which he (Mr. Hos-
kisson) felt the full force. It had been represented,
that the measure of his Right Hon. Friend would prove
highly injurious to the capitalist who had a large stock
of the raw material on hand. His Right Hoe. Friend had
, given that subject his fullest consideration : and the result
was, that be conceived some arrangement might be made
which would prove satisfactory to the parties interested.
The arrangement his Right Hoe. Friend proposed was, •
that those Who had in their possession any quantity of
raw or thrown silk, not in manufacture, might deposit
;he same in warehouses, and receive a drawback upon
the duty, which drawback or returned duty should be
the difference between the proposed duty of 3d. per lb.
with regard to raw, and 7s. 6J. per lb. with regard to
thrown silk, and that now paid—(Elear, hcar).--The
effect of this arrangement would be, that those engaged
in the throwing of silk would not have any motive for
suspending their work, when they knew that they could
have at any time a remission of the duty ; and thus the
trade would experience, as he said before, no Stagnation
or remission of its wonted activity. There was no in-
tention,
it was true, of remitting the duty, on the manu-
factured article; but them it was not considerable in
quantity, and if the principle of those. who argued for ,
a remission of such duty were admitted in the present
instance, it would become a very inconvenient prece-
dent upon future occasions. These would be also• a
considerable difficulty in ascertaining' the-amount of.
duty -that ought to be taken off'; as, ins consequence of
the stagnation of the trade, or from other causes, a con-
siderable fluctuation had at different times prevailed in
the price of the article, and to go into every shop with.
a view of finding what its medium price was would .be
.endless and impracticable. Ile had now stated; the;
means by which his Right Hoh.Friend thought he should_
benefit those engaged in the trade, as well as the public
at large; and in his views upon that subject he (Mr.
Huskisson) most cordially concurred. He would now
say a few words as to the operation of this measure,
with reference to the throwing of silk. The eff:cts of.
that system of monopoly to whiich we had hitherto ad-
hered,- were in that respect most injui ious. It was the
cause of our inferiority, both with reference to the silk
itself, and to the machinery which we used. But now,
that a system of equality was about to be adopted, he
had no doubt that the result would be a considerable
improvement in the throwing, weaving, and all ttxe
other branches of the manufacture. There had been,
he was aware, a strong feeling excited as to the dan-
ger of competition ; and he, Mr. Huskisson, was equally
well aware that this danger bad been greatly exagge-
rated. His Majesty's Government was, however,. wil-
ling to give every fair consideration, even to feelings of
danger, which they were convinced was imaginai y, con-
sistent with the duty which they owed to themselvei
and to the nation at large. Instead therefore of making
the termination of the prohibitory duties on the impor-
tation of silk manufactures contemporaneous with the
termination of the dirties themselves, his Right Hon.
Friend proposed that the prohibitions should not deter-
mine until the 26th of July, 1526, a period of nearly
two years and a half—(Hear, hear). In thus announc-
ing the determination to which his Right Hon. Friend
(the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had come; he (Mr.
1-luskisson) could not say that it had met leis unqualified
approbation. Indeed he thought such a prociastination
of the measure as perfectly unaecessery, and weuld have
preferred that its operation should commence imme-
diately, and be tried for one ) ear, when he was con-
vinced -that its results would prove the great advan-
tages ta be derived from such a system, But there was
something, he owned, due to the feelings of individuals;
and the great point being to estahlish certain g; eat prin-
ciples, it was a matter of comparative indifference
whether their application took place immeLle•ely ore es
deferred fur a year or two. The period which his /ii, h:
Hon. Friend had fixed was less than many of the eeh-
sons interested require ; but he had theught it bead to
extend it, in order to. give an oppo: Lenity to thoeeslie,
from honest but mistaken views had expressed their ep-
positiou to the measure, to reconsider the question; ar.d
avail themselves of the interval to make. such improe-
ments-as would conduce to their prosperity under the
new system. He (Mrelliteleissun) repeated his cofisic-
tion that The results of the Incas's,'c wuuld be found
highly beneficial betiewith reference to the eetchsie.n
and itnprovenient of the trade. These were the prin-
cipal measures whieh he was authorised to lay befeie
the Committee, and if he had succeeded in making