Star.
London, England, 1809-05-16 00:00:00

lIOUSEOF COMMONS, TUESDAY, MAY 1:;

PARLIJIMENTARr PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE. OF LORDS, MAY 15.

In the Committee of PriviL•ges on the Borthwick Peerage,
some evidence was heard, and the further proceeding was post-
poned till "I hursday.
In the Appeal 6' ?rank v. Frank," Mr. Horner was heard for
the Appellant, and Mr. Alevnder for the .Respondeut:—Further
hearing on Wednesday.

The Chancery Bill and so.ne private Bills were brought up
crnm the Commons by Mr. Wilson, Mr. Alderman Shaw., Mr.
Pelham, Mr. Robert biww, Lord Althorpe, and other Met:hirers,
and read a first time.

The Militia Completion Bdl, the 1'6,000,000 Frchequer
Bills Bill, and the Newspaper Bill, were read a third time and
passtrl.
The Scot's Local Militia Bill was read a second time, and com-
mitted fur to-morrow.
MANCUESTER WATER WORKS. '
The Marquis of STAFFORD presented Petitions,' sigred by
neat 4000 respectable Inhabitants and Land 'Owners in the towns
of Manchester and Salford, and also from two of the principal
Fire Offices in London, in fayour of the M4nchester Water
Wort.: Bill.

citrzurr TO ANINIALS.
On the Order of the Day being read for the second
reading of the Bill for preventtng malicious and wan=
ton cruelty to animals,

Lord ERSKINE stated his reasons for presenting
this Bill to the House, and very eloquently urged the
necessity of passing 'some law for the prevention of
that brutal cruelty towards animals, the instances of

The Scotch Militia Families Bill was committed. To he rti
ported on Thursday.
The Irish Revenue Rendition riu was road a second Cane.
HIGHOkTE ARCHWAY BILL.
Mr, P. MOORE moved the recommittal of the nig' give
Archway Bill.
Mr. C. ADAMS opposed the recommittal, on waicit a dielsiin
took place.
For.the recommittal
Against it - - 28-11lajari:y 7.
DEPOT AT HYDE PARK,

Mr. WHITBREAD moved for the paper enntaining the r. 7.
; rinent of Ch. Frrd,..trick Walker to the (Mice of AltitAry
Stun-keeper of the De pot at Hydr Park. In hr'yging firward
this niolion, he steed it to be his intention t, show, that while
t%eve were many retired Military Officers, who would
tstpl gladly accept of such a situation, this appointmert, C371.7i.g
a salary of 1201. a houle, coal, candle, &e. had been conferred or.
one, who, he bad no doubt, was very respectable in his line, but
who,;e principal recommend“tion was, that he had been ierv.22t to
a General OtKeer. •

Nlr. W. POLE bad nn objection to the production oftho pa.
per called :or. The appointment had taken place on liia recrm.
o.endation. A trusty pel son was required to disch::rl•e'h?
of it. He knew the person in question to be so, and accordirTly
rt commanded him to fi•l il.e titer. lie therefore beitgrd i; to he
cLirstood. that ro• Earl Chats am, Ito he (11r.
P de) was liable fin Vas appointment, if :here was any Writ Im.
proper in it.

Mr WHITBRF.AD said Ms object was rot to impute Wattle
t , any person. tie rflly meant to say that there were a number
of retired Military °nicer, who would accept of such situations;
and, if so, it was improper that they should not be so diposed.
1 he motion Was then agreed to.
BOGS IN IRV/AND.

•
Mr. FOSTER brought up a Bill for improving. Eor in trclard,
Mr. FITZGERALD oppgsed It as a job, giv,rg the iubl.e
money for the improvement of private prup:.ny.
The C1i..11.NCE.1..1.0R of the ftXcHEQULR maintained that
the Bill Wes not a „job, It Was only a matter of survey, not of
expenditure.
Mr. PONSONBY thought, if the preprietors would not benefit
their own estates, the publ.c sbnuld not interfere.
Atter a few words from Mr. ROtiF, and Mr. BAP.NAFD,
the Bill was read a Brat time. To be read a second time co
Thursday,

• EXCISE HOLIDAY .
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER obtained Ince
to bring in a I.llU.tor Regulatiopthe Holidays ar the Excise.
. Mr. WiirrBREAD asked if tt was meant to ;rake ai•er?.
don in the Stamp•office Department. and in what it wits to conqls:?
Mr. HVSKISSON said, such situ-align was intended. I:
would consist of an enlargement of the hours of attendance, an
incruase.of Wales, and an abolition of all extra allowance.

. JRLSti. RECOGNIZANCE BILL.
T 1 Committee on the Irish Recorthaisce dill wu postponed
till Thursday. •

IRISH MILITIA.

The Committee on the Irisli Militia Compktion Ell was post.
poned till to-morrow,
wiNasnik FOREST SILL..

The second r..ading of the Windsor Forest BU! was postponed
till W edneclap seinnight.
SEAMUS' Via9es.
__• _ _ _

Mr: Ron moped t,s leave tit bring in a Bill for Amending
an Act."( to Seamen? Wage' and the Regulation of Prize-money
in has-Majesty's N4vy.
Mr. ROSE also moved for leave to bring in a Bill for Amend-
ing the Act of the 4P .tit of the Kit's for the bette'r encouraging of
Seamen, and providing for the Naval Asylum at Greenwich.
After tome conver•ation between Sir C. Pott Mr. RosE,P/fr.
Waen,•Mr. loutisrosz, &c. leave was given tol3ring in both of
these Bills.

which were onfortunately too frequent. It could not
be too forcibly impressed upon the minds of all men,
and he was particularly desirous of inculcating the I SALE OF OFFICES.
principle in the preamble to this Bill—that the. use 1 On the taking into further consi.feration the Re;:ort
of animals was a moral trust committed to its, which i of the Committee on the Bill for Preventing the Sale
it was incumbent upon us to execute with feeling and ; of Offices, afier a few words from the Chancellor of
humanity. The whole lower world was given to our the Exchequer,
care for our use, not fin- our abuse—for our rational Mr PONSONBY 'stated some objections, as he
pleasure and satisfaction, Dot for the exercise of ern- , thought the Bill bore hard on the Law ()dicers of
elty and inhumanity. He would not enter into a dis-
I Ireland
gusting detail of cruelties committed upon animals-- ! The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
the instances were almost innumerable, and rtrtica. said he should be happy if the Honourable Gentle-
larlramong •the basest and most worthless of man-1 man would *furnish a Clausu to obviate such an evil.
kind, whom only the fear of punishment could deter Knowing as he did, more of the inconveniences he
from the commission of such atrocity. As the. law .complained of than he (the Chancellor of the Ex-
now stood, a man could only be punished for cruelty' chequer) did, he miglil be better able to suggest a
towards an animal, where, there was malice against provision against them.
the owner ; his object in this Bill was, to protect the Sir JOHN NEWPORT made a few observations.
animals themselves from inhumanity on the pan of Lord FOLKSTONE said, the Bill in its present
their owners, as well as other persons. Since.he liad I Pate was perfectly nugatory. He had formerly Lad
given notice of this measure, he had received-a great i it.in contemplation to introduce a clause into it, but
number of communications, many of them from high- i on its being pointed out to him that the clause he
ly respectable Magistrates in different parts of the : thought of bringing forward would countenance the
country, relative to a variety of acts of cruelty corn-; conZinuation. in place of a person who had procurd
mined towards animals, which still further proved '
his appointment by corrupt means, in consideration
the necessity of some Bill of this deicription. His I of:
practice of seve- his having afterwards. given infirmation against
Lordship referred particularly to the
1 others, lie had not submitted it to the Committee.—
ral dealers in horse-flesh, who bought horses past tbeir .
He was of opinion, that it would be proper to hold
i
labour, and kept them without food for several days, out same inducement to persons thus situated to in-
until they were waned to be cut up, and in several farm against others concerned in such corrupt rrac-
instances had actually let them starve to death, while - I
tices that some of the offenders might be punished.—
the poor creatures, impelled by hunger, had actually
gnawed each others *flesh. Anothet great abuse was, (A cry of, move, move! from the Opposition).—The
Noble Lord concluded, expressing an inclination to
the keeping of cattle impounded without food for se- ' make a motion to that effect.
veral days. Other instances of inhumanity' towards 1
horses were to be found in these extravagant w wished the Bill to he made as effectual as possible.—
wagers wished
ae CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQT.Tr,R
for races against time, which had been of late very
He had no objection to give the Noble Lord every
frequent. He did not allude to the noble sport of opportunity to improve it by the introduction of A
horse-racing, whicti the animals liked as n--..ch as their new clause, and he would therefore move that it
owners, hut to the inhuman practice of urging. a should be recommitted.
`hone on beyond its powers, for the mere object of do- ! The. Bill was then ordered to be recommitted, and
ing so ; for the object of the wagers in these races
against time, was to mate the House resolved itself into a Committee.
e a horse
perform what it I Lord FOLKSTONE then moved 4, that forevery
was beyond the ordinary power Of a horse to do. It ' such offence the party should be liable to forfeit and
was . ni.prevent these, and a variety of other acts of ; pay the sum of 5001. which sum should be given to
inhumanity evinced in the over-loading and over-aki- i the informer. The convicted-offender being puuishe
ving, and torturing of animals, that he had' brought 1* fine and imprisonment, or by the one or the other
in this Bill. It would not prevent the proper use of las the judges should direct.
animals, or their necessary destruction for the good of The -CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEIIii

lad, as he un ierstood the Nol-le Lord intended to
cr„..g forward another clause, he wishettto hear that,
:11.1t kaowing the substance of both, he might be
able more correctly to judge of the measure .sug-
s;e3u.d.
Lid FOLICSTONE, in reply, stated it to be
somewhat on the same principle as the clause which
ne had formerly been induced to suppress; namely,
the exonerating from punishment those who informed
i,aying participated in the offence. Though he
would have the party disabled from holding a situa-
tion obtained through such improper and uriconstitu-
ticaell influence.
The CHANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
did not think the Committee could go to the length
of the Noble Lord's proposal. Were there no other
wars cf gaining information of such practices, it
might be expedient to resort to the mode he had
pointed or:. But in the present state of things, he
aid not thick it proper to hold out such temptation
to false evidence, or obtain true information by such
means, and under such circumstances, possessing, as
they did, other means of obtaining information, it
•s unnecessary. The temptation held out to false in-
formation, by adopting such a measure, he thought
extremely dangerous, as the artifices of an infamous
scoundrel might procure him 5001. in some instances,
where the provision that the informer should lose his
place,
could du him no injury, which sum his bene-
factor, though far less culpable, might be compelled
to pay.
Mr. TIERNEY thought the objection of the eh:ln-
c:nor of the Exchequer not a very strong one. If
the benefactor of an infamous scoundrel were liable
thus to he punished, what argument was it against
the clause ? He ought to have had nothing to do in
such an affair.
Lord FOLKSTONE observed, the Chaitullor of
the Exchequer had said it was unnecessary to resort
to snch an expedient to obtain information, if corrupt
practices were not necessary, as sufficient information
could be derived from other sources. This he denied,
without the evidence of some one concerned, to ob-
tain information. was difficult, and, perhaps, in some
instances imposcible. He never thought the Bill
seceild do much good, but from the view he then had
of it in its present state, he thought it might do harm.
He thoueht with the Honourable Gentleman, that it
was but fair if the patron of an infamous scoundrel
mould stiffer for endeavouring to advance such a cha-
racter to a place of emolument or trust.
The CHANCELLOR of , the EXCHEQUER
declared his mind was open to conviction. The words
of the Honourable Gentleman had had some effect
on him, and if they could satisfy him that such a
measure would be likely to benefit the country, he
would give it his support. The Noble Lord had
spoken as if information thus gained must he true,
but that he thought extremely doubtful. He was of
opinion, pun'shment would frequently fill where it
was least deserved. Met might have exerted their
influence with others to obtain a situation for scorns-
drels, who had got round them, and who might be
wholly unknown to the person who gave them their
situations. Yet against that person might they give
information, though no party in the corruption. He
might have gives\ places to various persons on the re-
commendation of others, on whom he thought he'
could rely, since be had been in office, and a
ill thus appointed, might, were such a clause
received, accuse him of corruption. Information
might be given of the wrong, and wrong or richt ihe
Informer would be rewarded. He opposed the clause,
because he thought it thus objectionable ; be was,
however, st'll open to conviction, as it was his wish
to make the bill as etfectiin I as possible.
Lord HENRY PETTY knew of no information
that could be procured from accomplices, which
would not he attended with such concomitant evils.
He, however, thought the informer morel:lc-1y to ace
vise the right than the wrong, for this pl.tin reason'
—it was more easy to substantiate the fact in the for-1
rim. case than in the latter. He thought with the
Noble Lord, that the bill in its present state was use-
less. That which it proposed to make a misdemea-
nor was before punishable by law, but no pi :'ceedings
ha I ever been instituted against any °Pe. Why ?
becatt•e no inducements were held out to call forth
witnesses to substantiate the fact and furnish evidence.
titter a short conversation between Mr. ROSE and
Pom,:oNfiv,

The ATTORNEY GENERAL opposed the
clause, on the grounds that punishment might fall
where it was least deserved. A and might be trtif-
irkinT, for a place, which B might obtain 'for A,
through the influence of C, who might be wholly ig
norant of the tratfick between them. B being dead,
A might charge C wi.h corruvion, though only ctil-
pable in yielding to the solicitations of B, and bestow
in 5; a rtlice person he thought deserving of such
a sit,ption. A. might, in fact, be more likely to aC-
clic* C than B, however culpable B might have been;
.k and 13. might be supposed to be friends, while
bet Peen A and C. no connecaun whatever might
La7t. e-,iste 1. •

Arter some forber observations from Sir Jtshn
!c,wpr.‘rt, Mr. Tierney, the Attorney General, the
Lor 1 A liocaz". of Sefi•la.nd, the Chancellor of the
Excnecrter, the Solicitor General, Loid Folkston*,
Mr. Croaker, .41r. Homer, and Mr. Fuller,
Tne tionse came to a division upon the Amend-
c propnsed by Lord Follestone—Ayes 31—Noes
---I,4,ority 43.
strat,ers (Living been re-admitted, the other clauses
through. The House then returned, and
tae r, epurt was ordered to be received to-morrow.