Star.
London, England, 1812-02-01 00:00:00

HOLFE Or LORDS, JANUARY SI.

The LORD CHANCELLOR took his scat on the Woolssek
abut faur o'clock. and, atter Prayers were read, some routine
busitoss was disposi,d of. An atkiqurnment daring pleasure then
took pliice. s

About five o'clock the House resumed, when the two Etch.-
-quer Bill: Bills were read a second time.
The Sugar Importation, and the Malt Duty Bills, were read a
third time, and rimed.

The Royal Ilous-hohl Bill was !novel!' tip from the Com-
mons by Mr. Loam:so-lON and other M.:tubers, and read a
!Fr. time.

'Elie Earl of LIVER POOL, on the Bill brisig read a first time,
Moved "That the Bill be printed," and acquainted thtir Lord-
ships with his intention to move the second reading of the Bill
on Tuesday Lest.

Mr. Luso INGTON also presented the }lousehold Dffieers' BM,
which was read a first time and ordered to be printed. '
Some accounts were ordered, oo are moduli of the Earl of
'LAUDERDALE.

CATHOLICS OF IRELAND.
The order for summoning their Lord.hips being
rend,

Earl FITZWILLIAM rose for the purpose of
'bringing forward the motion of which repeated notice
had been given by his Noble Friend (Lord Grenville).
Ile had coma forward in order to bring under the
consideration of their Lordships, one of the most im-
portant subjects, in all its views and bearings which
ormld possibly call for the attention of the Imperial
Pailiament. But though momentous and - impoe-
tint as the subject was at the time the notice was fit st
given, greedy as it pressed upon the early and anxi-
ous attention of the British Senate, yet he certainly
little thought that its peculiar importance, and the
necessity of a speedy investigation, would be iftealeu-
leble increased by the view and consideration of cir-
eurnstances of recent occurrence, which were, he be-
lieved, unprecedented in the annals of the country.
The events and circumstances to which he alluded,
he could not have entertained an idea of, when he
Erin proposed their Lordships being called together
for the objects he had in view. The proceedings to
which he adverted went to shake the foundations of
these great bulwarks of civil liberty ; nay, to endan-
ger the pctsonal 'safety of the subject ; and, he be-
lieved, he might ver.ture to challenge the House to
produce any instance of the kind in the judicial his-
tory of the country, for the last century ; they mili-
tated against the very principles by which the liberty
of the subject was withheld.. These proceedings ren-
dered it more imperatively incumbent on their Lord-
Ships to consider the general subject, of which such
proceedings had new become a very prominent and
important part ; not only with a view to the security
of the undoubted rights of those who were most im-
mediately liable to be affected ; but with a view to
the point (though occurring on the other side of
the water), in the light of precedent and example.
That House, particularly, could not be too feelingly
alive or too vigilant on such an occasion, as the rights,
the liberties, and the personal safety of their fellow-
Subjects at large, were implicated in 411 e considera-
titer. The rights of the people with respect to the
purity of the trial by Jury, he regarded as the palla-
dium of ehe public safety. The most anxious and
jealous care should be taken to provide for ands assert
the due and upright administration of the most im-
Rortant branch of our judicial system. But a more
re,eular opportunity would arrive for a detailed dis-
Cussion of this part of the subject; for it was one
which must 'be considered ; end, he timed, when
that day should arrive, Parliament would mark its
strong and decisive sense of such proceedings.. The
;abject to which ite had more regularly ami erectly

to call their Lordships'. attention, was one which in- Were theyno proceed on se slight, so hypothetical a
volvedihe general state of Ireland; and on that ge- 1 basis ? Was there a single document before them to 1
neral ground he had framed the proposition he should prove the alledged facts ?or did any one Pt:lien:len-
have the honour to submit. An investigesion of the I tary ground existfor bottoming suds an argument ? ;
general state of the country, would best spew the IThe Noble Earl had asserted that no time should be
real grounds that existed for the loud and repeated Ilost in resorting to some measures. Brit he Most aver
complaints of grievance to which their attention ;that he adduced no solid or substantial grerimds.(or
would be called ; they would find that a most serious l such an inquiry as was desieed. The ceitdoet of the
"difference," at least lie may he allowed to call it, Irish Government, he mnst contend, was seeli as the I
existed between the Government and the people.— exigencies of the crisis celled; ter if, ind. cd, they had 1
By the word people, he was far from meaning exclu- acted otherwise they would have betrayed a culpable 1
' sively the mass of the population, but the great body want of prudence, and a shameful pesillonnetyn— I
of the proprietors, and men of consideration in the (hear, hear.) Suppose thee were no other objec-
%
country ; and such a state of things he must say ex- tions, the conduct of the Catholics was such,' that if
isted in that country. If not the original, at least the Government did not interfere as it had, they
the most prevalent cause of this state of things was, would themselves have eventually become the victims.
as had been often and frequently urged before, the He deemed it unnecessary to follow the Noble Earl
deprivation of their undoubted rights 3 and until such over the ground he had taken. He would not to fer
an alarming and oppressive grievance should be re- trespass upon their Lent/ships time, but would direct
dressed, they must naturally expect that the subject their attyntion to what appeared to him to he the
would again and again be pressed upon their aunt- main point: It was contented that the Irish Govern-
tion ; for, without such redress, they could not ex- ment had obstructed the Catholics in the exercise of
pect either harmony or satisfaction in that part of the their constitutional right of petitioning. If such were
empire. A great deal was apparently laid at the 1 the case, there that Government would deserve at
door of religious differences of opinion, but he might least the censure ofthat House. But in fact the case
be allowed to say, that, in reality, and, in fact, not was widely differeet. The Catholics, undoubtedly,
one particle of religious consideration could be fairly had the same right to petition their Sovereign or the
ascribed to jt. This, he would venture to say, would Legislature witch all their fellow subjects enjoyed ;
be found the case, when they came to examine; they but what lie insisted on, was, that the Irish Govern-
would tied that difference in religious sentiment had, ment had never attempted to interfere in any pro- •
in reality, very little to do with it. And, he would ceeding of the Catholics which had the object ripe- !
ask, could any man be fairly and conscientiously kept titioning fairly in view. The fact was, that they had ,
out of his civil rights—even of the common rights of thought tit to proceed to the fermaticn of a lterre-
subjects, on account of the religious opinions he sent:ttive Convention. Against a procedure Of this ,
might entertain ? But, he again repeated, it was no kind (said his Lordship) the Irish Convention had
difference in religious sentiments that formed the been more particularly framed. The Members of the
grounds of the exclusion of Catholics from a due House of Commons, and no other, were tke legiti-
share in the representation in Parliament, and from mate and constitutional representatives of the people.
those various other undoubted rights of which they What an incongruity, at best, would it present, to see
were deprived. It was idle to attribute it to the dit- one assembly affecting to speak the sentiments of the
ference of opinion: fur itotence, with respect to the country, while another expressed them in a manner
doctrine of transubstantiation, it was impossible to Say, directly opposite ? But the danger of suffering such an
that a man could be a mine true and loyal subject assembly to exist was the more important considers-'
because he believed that, instead of his receiving the Lion. Had such an assembly beer. suffered to continue
real body and blood of Cintise at one of the Sacra- until now, what destructive consequences right not
ments, it was done only in commemoration of the have ensued ? An assembly so constituted, if toleraio
' SAVIOUR. The Noble Earl here tcok a short histo. ed, might think proper to discuss the questions of peace
rical view of the conduct of the British Governments and war—the resources of the country, the taxes ne- I
to their Catholic subjects, especially in the eventful cessary for the continuation of hostilities, and the
reigns of Charles the Second and of William' the ability of the people to bear them, the commerce, the
Third. lint times and circumstances had mint im- exchanges, and the currency of the empire—all these
' portantly altered since those eventful periods—there topics such a convention might proceed to discuss;
was now no Catholic Pretender to the Throne, nor in short every thing debated in Parliament might
did any of those various objections upon which fur- arose undoubtedly be discussed in such an assembly.
' merly such stress was I rid, exist at present. The As to the ohjection and its temporary duration, he
claims of the Irish Catholics had been seriously ten- would say, if it were lawful to discuss them one thy,
sidered and attended to in the Parliament of that it would be lawful to do so another, and so on to any
country ; they had been in part recognized, and a , number. Such an assembly, it tolerated, might sit
certain portion of justice afforded to them. Some I whether Perliament were sitting at the time or not.
' of their rights were restored ; but many of their most No arguments, however plausible, should, he con-
, -inwortant rights were still withheld ; the elective tended, be allowed to suffer a precedent of so denger-
. franchise had been accorded, but they were preelu- 1 out and destructive a nature as the establishment of
ded from all share in the legislative power; from all , such a convention. No Governmsnt could long main-
situanons of command in the army and the navy.— tam tails itself if such a system prevailed—ne Got:element
They should consider that by the measure of Uuton, !in its senses would suffer the existence, still lc:s the
that part of the empire were destitute of the super- !continuance ol such an assembly ! —(flore, hear 1)
intending care of their Parliaments, and they had !That of Ireland, therefore, had acted most prudently
now none to look up to for redress, save that and the 'in not suffering such an assembly to continue organiz-
, other House of Parliament. Why should our Ca- ed in the capital. It was necessary to put the existing
Biotic fellow-subjects alone be precluded from a par: laws in execution for the preservation of the, State.
ticipation in the common benefits of the Constitution (Met., hear.)—They were justified not only in the,
under which they live ? As long as such a conside- principle, but in the mode of their conduct, as was
fable part of our population are kept in such a state, amply illustrated by the proceedings of the Catholics.
I they might naturally be expected to complain.—His The proclamation of the Duke of Richmond en one,
object was to bring this great and important conside- day, was followed by that of Lord Fingal or, the
ration fully and seriously to the view of Parliament. next. They had set themselves in open host iity to
They would see the policy as well as the justice of the Government of Ireland, which was' unjustly
affording some, among so numerous a portion of their blamed for exciting discontents, while in fact they
1 fellow-subjects, a chance of being admitted into the had only enforced the laws of the country. The
Government of their country. He saw 110 rational Noble Duke at the head of the Irish Government
diflicuties or obstacles which now obtained to the would, instead of meeting with censure, meet the
speedy consideration of the subject. An investiga- applause of every impartial man who had the oppor-
: Lion called for no less by necessity and by policy tunity of observing the acts of his administration.—
than strict national justice. They could never hope His conduct, instead of being harsh or precipitate,
for a tranquil or a satisfactory state of things in lie- was rather remarkable for its conciliation and fir-
land, until the grievances of so great a portion of her bearance, to the utmost botlhds of prudence and safety.
! population were redressed ; a consummation which He begged the House to recollect what was the con-
' more then any thing else, would tend to the happi- duct of America when she was determined to separate
ness, the prosperity, and the security of the Empire from this country. Was it not the organization of a
•at large. The Noble Earl concluded by moving,-- representative convention ? What was the case with
" That a Committee be appointed to enquire into, respect to France the other day ? Was not an assem.
' and consider of the state of the affairs of Ireland." bly of the States-General first called, and :t National
The Duke ofDEVONSHI RE seconded the motion. Convention immediately organized? The dangers of
He perfectly concurred in every thing that had fallen ' suffering such an Assembly to have existence, were
! from his Noble Friend. With him he felt that that incalculable, and he felt that the Government of Ire-
' subject was one which loudly called for the attention land had only exercised its fpower, at a crisis when
of the House, and while things were suffered to re- the safety of the State was seriously menaced—(keer,
main in their present state in Ireland, they must ex- hear.) Had it acted otherwise, its supineness and
pect to have it unceasingly pressed upon their atten- pusillanimity would have been censurable indeed—it
I
tion. Not only the justice and character, but the had enforced the laws on which the safety of the state
safety of the country, was involved in the conside- depended. Had it declined to do so, the case in both
' ration.—On the question being put, countries would have been different, but infinitely
The Earl of ROSSE declared his opinion, that i worse. Increased murmurs, and multiplied alarmists
' nothing which had fallen from the Noble Earl should would have been one of the lighsest consequences :
induce the House to accede to the motion. With the but as it was, he deemed them, instead of censure and
Noble Earl, however, he lamented the existing state reproach, deserving of the applause and gratitude of
of that part of the United Kingdom ; and no person the country.
could he more happy to contribute in extending to The Duke of BEDFORD• strenuously supported
every branch of his Majesty's subjects all that was the motion. He considered what had been advanced
desired, as far as his convictions of prudence and by the Noble Earl, as not tending in the smallest de-
ws iy would admit. No one could be more ready in gree to do away the arguments and the facts ad-
recommending that Parliament should receive and vented to by his Noble Friend. e With respect to the
attend to the petitions of the country at large. For recent conduct of the Government of Ireland, he
his part, he begged leave to say, that attached as lie widely differed from him. An eulogium had been
was to all the people of Ireland, of whatever reli- pronounced on the Noble Duke at the head of that
gious persuasion they may be, he must naturally be Governnsent. He trusted, however, it would be
inclined to accede to any measure which he really allowed him, notwithstanding his near connection
thought would tend to the prosperity of that country. with that Noble Personage, to express himself as to
or the welfare and security of the empire at large._ this particular point, of a different opinion. The
At the same time, he must say, that he believed the effects of the unfortunate measures of that Adminin
present to be a peculiarly improper time to accede to I stration were too obvious, he thought, to allow the'
the motion of the Noble Earl. The proposition may I merits of the question to be undecided. The actual:
be regarded in a two-fold light : first, as it went to state of Ireland Ire too felt, with his Noble Friend, to
conciliate the Catholics of Ireland ; and secondly, be such as forcibly to call for the speedy interposition
with a view of casting a reflection upon the present of the Government and Legislature of the Empire.—
Government of Ireland. In considering the subject, 1 What was that situation? It was a Catholic popula-
the late conduct of the Irish Catholics formed a pro- tion under a Protestant Government. Four-fifths of
minent point. And first, he must say, he deemed ; that population had to maintain their own hierarchy
the Catlenic Convention a proceeding of a very dan- 1 and their priesthood, while the other finis were in
gerous nature; but a point on which the Noble Earl 1 possession of all the revenues and the resources of
laid great stress in the outset, was what was alledged I the Government, to maintain and uphold their own
to take place respecting a Jury, and for this he had i establistunents 1 Under these circumstances, the Ca''
no foundation or authority than vague report, or tholics had frequently approached Parliament in a 1
what was stated in a newspaper. Was it upon such supplicating attitude, for redress; with what effect I
an hypothesis that august Assembly were called upon was too well known. The discontent:of that corm-
to go into a Committee oa the affairs of Ireland ?-- try were to 4 attributed to the intolerant spirit or

those who now were vested with the prete.rt ri
vernment. The object of their recent ciadoc . ,
he thought, to induce the rnore effect; aed tc ;.....'
character of ili:plity and solemnity to their p' ..-If‘'
ings. This object was frustrated by the condm"u
the Irish Government. Under such circus:o7r
it would not perhaps be wonderful if the Cat'la"
that country had acted di ffeteetly ; out ~„t tc
trary, they have manifested a most hold th1e,,,,,.nC
ration aild loyalty ef ternp.r. St Should 1, to_g --
re
lected that the population of fie:: : Lid lOn ~i,
been admitted to the elective franchise, somli:":
Catholic Nobles, Gentry, And men of pre m;
held unworthy of being the Representatives of to
brethren ! While he had the honour to hold a,.
in the Government of Ir.:land, Le r did every thie;
hi, ,power under dim: circumstances to conciiitte'
soften their condition ; he conjuresi the Holoco.c
sider the situation in which so nurnetoas A portion
their fellow-stibjects were still held, and to taro
serious atte;stion to the critical Situation is which
valuabla a branch of the empire see, placed •ma -
• m, ce
sevence of s.tch deprivations ond'thx nusesoolect
its Government. For this, the motion-of his N.
Friend affiuded them a convenient oppoonaty.
were a waste of their Lordlips time to et,
upon these topics. Instead * harsh and
e,
sy,te which was latterly ad , they should
out the olive branch aul the hand of ftiomd ,
(Thar, hear!)—Such.v..is the only wiry to wiik
hands and hearts r end sttch comduct seicomd
more effectually Otto any other, to promote to
1 the trancloillity amid happiness of Iselanc!, tot:tmit
intei est-. and security of the Empite at laroe.
Ti4e Earl of ABERDEEN . took a survey of
? generol state of Ireland, in order to exanmint *at
was which -coold so Urgently call for an eaquimy ie
the condition of that country at the press:lt mern.
What most forcibly stmuck Lim he con id-
s • ring
state of Ireland, was the tone and attitude we:ill t
body of the Roman Catholics had assumed in the , .
',oration and-furtherance, as they cali.d it, of . •
petition to Parliament. Wa, the present the pro
moment for pressiog forward their claims? it
their petition ready to be laid now below the Hoe
Was it in the manner in wtaich that petition was
pared, or the circumstances that :mended and mot
I their meetings, Parliament was to discover and ,
that moleration; that forbenance, that respect,fie
' hives, that veneration for the Constitution, which
su much and so frequently been the theme of pa
i gyi ic and applause with their advocates? Wh.o
the real object of the motion which the NAIL E
had this night submitted to their Lords!mips'c ' .
1 ation ? Were not the Noble Mover and those .*
suppo: ted him anxious rather to extend the iaqui,
I into the whole conduct of his Islejesty's Gover.er
1 —to eallViSS and criticise thci proceeding, es
1 all the aspects of that conduct? This he belies.
was the true motive amid object of the prestat iti iti,
But he had attentively watched the proceedins ..
the Goveentreot in Ireland.; indetd time gener.4 ~
1 sures et his Majesty's Government hot!' there and
' home ; and hi• humble opinion was, that conduct •
cooly was not destrs ing of blame, but was Liehly
1 titled to commendation. It would be impertinen
I him to detain their Lordsliips with a detail of ail
I had recently passed in Ireland. • All he would
take upon himself to say was, that in all tierir late
I ceediogs, the conduct of the Irish Catholics, note-,
standing their owa, and.tbe claims of their advec
to the praise of moderation and i-orbearance, had ~
thing in it that bespoke the very reverie, and ap
to him, upon the whole, to 'cie highly rep:rhensibit
They seemed wholly to forget the many successe
endeavours; that had bee'n made to improve and a
borate their conditions ; endeavoimrs which the li
rality of their own Parliament, and of their Prieto
fellow-subjects, had can ied as fir as re..p.:ct fe t
Constitution, and a due regard to its security, vote
admit. Much hid been said about the rights •
mankind—about rights of the Irish Catholics
privileges and immunities which they claimed. g"
the Noble Lords who startAhis question of right,ci
tend that the -Irish Catholics can claim those Fie
leges and exemption as matter of 1 ight f Will
asert that the question of right properly belongs .
the situation of the lii h Catholics ? If they
then must they be also prepared to assert that it
not belong to their Lordships House t—thetneit
' this nor the other House of Parliament, nor both t
(gether, have the right to imp 'se restrictions m a
I class of men, even were those restrictions deemed r
cessory for the security nf persons and FopertT,
for the general got).11,11,1 volaro of the community.
large. He should not einer into any minute di
of the tenmency and tenure of religious OF •
merely in ;hair speculative firm. He wished to •
sider theft enly as they might thew themselves
..
tically, and how far that practice was or was not
mic ml to Government. Under this pint of rim,
would consider the claims of tl.e Catholics ; an 4 a
what had beer. refused to them, or, rather, whet •
not been granted to them within the seaee of a
few years ? And, After all these concessions, of
did they now complain, and what did they flu*
require ? Their complaint, it seems, was now redsof
to this, that they were still preJuded from heldel
certain offices in the State. On this print they vest'
issue with Parliament, and would their advent
contend that as a matter of right they could dale's
admissibility to those high ethos. Tills WAS the reg.l
state of the question. If that doctrine was set .
for one would not hesitate to declare, that such sue'
trine was not tenable. He was as solicitous at IsIT.,
Noble Lord could be for tie 1
better improvewit 1,
the condition of Ireland. But would the granrarece
the present clai:ns cl the Catholics contribute Is
~..0
least to that improvement ? He thought not—meow
could he see the danger of withholding such a gna'
At a distance,
• gen. '!'hose dangers, however, diminished
approached them, and vanished altogether neon
some appearances woutrll,dldmiceietidnottrolaseatt Aro
4.
nearer view. The Noble Lord' then emooededo,.
vindicate the late conduct of the Irish Gowen=
and to chew that the spirit which animated tbst
_ct*.
duct was in no respect hostile to the right of petit ,
ing, or to any other right to which the Cathol4t,itheng.
fair claim ? Where then were the grounds a
! vecrives which the Noble Duke (Bedford) hattiotaor
eudleußpoonmtahne ccoantdhuoclitcsl tliittUrrose•
prejudice
had been manifested with respect to them?
the persons of the Raman Catholic; held as
and was not their property kept as seecore al OW
glair Protestant fellow subjects ? LTC dig

i

V

•a

4~~

~~

illidt

ask
sad
ery
112 t

dance one instanee of flagrant partiality to-
ate
protestants, and of prejudice and severity
ids
the . Catholics, and he would then acknowledge
a
were some grounds for inquiry. Let it even
hewn that the operation of the Convention Act
oid be less injurious to the Protestants than to the
cetholics, if the former should act in violation of
4,„ law. If the Protestants, under the pretence of
o'oaing the King or Parliament, or any other pre-
;nee whatsoever, should delegate and assemble SW
wor of the first respeetability and weight among
if that assembly were to meet and deliberate,
cd thus form a representative body, independent of
ibeLegidature, would the Government he justified in
owing such proceedings to go on without interrup-
tion Was not such, however, the recent conduct of
the Irish Catholics ; and was their conduct, contrary
sit was to law, and pregnant as it, might have Pro-
ved with the most dangerous consequences to the
Stater to be allowed to pass unnoticed and unchecked?
That indeed would be an instance of blind and extra-
ordinary partiality and favour towards the Roman
cathelics. The Noble Lord next entered into a yin -
&ado of the late judicial proceedings in Ireland,
"id contended that it was the indispensable duty of
the Courts to proceed as they had done. It was not
nuely to be allowed, that pictures of sedition were
every day to be eiliibited with impunity, without any
iiaerference on the part of any of the Constituted Au.
&tines of the country ; that would unquestionably
rut be the surest means of improving the condition of
Ireland. No ! the prosperity an happiness of the
United Kingdom would only be promoted by mu-
tual sacrifices, by reciprocal forbearance, and by the
harmony of the exertions and energies of both, as cor-
dially co-operating against the machinations and thy
violence of the common enemy. Such being the im-
Felton of his mind he must vote against the motion
fir a Committee of Inquiry.
'The Duke of BEDFORD briefly explained the
nature of his charges against the Irish Government.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE insisted that no.
thing had been done towards improving the state of
Ireland—but that every measure of late, pal ticularly
tFe measure of the Union, had greatly tended to de-
tnicrate her condition, to humble her pride, to sap
thefoundations of her prosperity. In being deprived
of her Parliament, it was not one privation alone that
Ireland had suffered. That privation had involved
ratty other severe and degrading privations. It de-
prived her ct.her metropolis—it deprived her of her
same as a kingdom—it deprived her of her nobility
_privations which of themselves are sufficient to sink
the spirits and unnerve the energies of a people. It
tamover tended to drain her of her money, by remit-
tances to absentees, and thus deprived her not only
of the example and influence which a nobility and
gentry are wont to exert over a country, but also of
the advantage of resources which were drawn from
her soil. Indeed, in every point of view in which the
measure of the Union could be contemplated, it
would appear x6th disadvantages and degradation to
Ireland, instead of benefits. It promised great ad-
' vantages to the Catholics, to induce them to concur
is promoting the measure. and repaid that concur.
rence with disappointment and ingratitude. Instead
of mutual conciliation, it only begot disaffection and
ill will—and in every respect it could only be looked
upon as a nominal union Such, it appearing to him
to be the condition of Ireland, lie could not tut sup-
lett any motion this had for its object to better that
condition.
The Earl of HARDWICKE defended the con-

duct of the different Governments of lreiand for a
number of years past. Most of them had been mark-
ed by concessions and indulgence to the Catholic..
Out of these concessions fresh claims and demands

sesmed to grow—though they were granted, they
were expected to afford eitire satisfaction, and to put
estop to any further solicitations. In the year 1793
the Elective Franchise, and the right of accriring
property were conceded to the Catholics—and it was
then understood on all hands that the spirit of con-
cession had gone to its fullest length. No one could
rejoice more than he did at the repeal of the penal
laws—but there must be some point at which a stand
was necessary to be made. He could see no possible
advantage in instituting an inquiry at the present
moment into the state of Ireland. The granting of
a Committee for that purpose, would be only to throw
censure on the Government tf Ireland, which their
conduct was far from deserving. In other respects,
he did not consider the present time and circum-
stances as seasonable and propitious fur the agitation
of these questions. He must therefore oppose the
motion of the Noble Earl,
Lord SIDMOUTIi said, that he feared that on
the present occasion be shou:d not be able to do jus-
tice to his own feelings. Be derived, however, much
suieaction front what fell from two Noble. Lords who
had preceded hi-m. With the one (Earl Aberdeen)
he concurred in considering the present question as
one of the deepest importance ; with the other (Earl
Hardwicke), he agreed in thinking, that after con-
cessions made to the Irish Catholics in 179:3, that
concession bad then gone its utmost length, and that
there a stand c,ught to have been made. But he
must differ from those Noble Lords in the views they
took of the consequences that Might arise to this
country from any opposition to further concessions.
The Noble Earl who bro,oglit forward the motion
seemed to think that mt re had been granted to the
lower orders of the Catholics than to the higher :
That the higher classes, the Nobility of that persua-
sion, were still deprived of the rank and privileges
theY were entitled to enjoy, while many advantages
Were derived by the lower order of the Catholics,
horn the concessions already made to them. Yet
to both it had been argued, belonged the right of
tech concessions. They were not to be matter of
.!listussion and deliberatien, they ought to be acknow-
ledged as matter of right. This question of right,
it Was not necessary for him to examine and discuss.
44.% Noble Friend (Lord Aberdeen) had, in his
..°Pinion, completely settled and disposed of . that
Iluestion. Indeed, it was true, as his Noble Friend
had observed, that such a doctrine was wholly unte-
nable.
that That doctrine had, however, been set up in
House by very_high authorities. They argued,
that the concessions called for by the Catholics,
should be granted to them as matter of right, while
at, tile same time it was contended that the higher or-
v.,ers of the Catholics were deprived of the privileges
,u'ey should enjoy, while all the concessions were in
irfour of the lower orders of that persuasion. This
ill his • •
°Pulions was forming a strange action of a

. . • . . • - • • .
right. He meg i Ined • , that Where %here was a right, t#
ear, Auer, hear.) in the next place, the Irish Ca- don ei your Lordships. However I may difter with
there could be no distinction of persons; that it was tholics required that they should by qualified to fill the Noble Earl who has brought it under our view,
that very essence of a free Constitution, that where the highest offices in the State ; but did it fellow, notwithstanding the exigency of the occasion, lam
there was a right it should be equally enjoyed by all that because they were qualified to hold the high. still of opinion, that as it has been brought forward,
descriptions of persons living
Government, by the higher otclere, as well as the ( Hear, hear, hear.)—There were many, very many discussion, according to the wise practice of Parliaa
lower, and
vice versa. When the improvement Protestants in this country who had the giri.ification ment upon all matters of such high and serious in-
and melioration of the condition of Ireland was of both wealth and talents, but wh i dhl not hold tercst. If we are to entertain the question at all, we
sought after, it was the condition of its peasantry high offices in the State ; but it was ter necessary to should discuss its parts with temper, and decide upon
which it should he our study to improve. Among reason on this head to point rut the weakness of its merits with impartiality; we should always beat
them idleness and ignorance still prevailed, and as such an argument. If the Irish C ttlinlics were to In mind the effect that our decision may have upon
long as they were exposed to the influence of these be qualified to hold a situation in the Government, i the passions, the feelings, the prejudices even, and
vices, their condition could not be improved. He had it could not necessarily follow that the King must the interests of the great body of men who will
never been a frh nd to the penal laws by which the select him to be either his Lord Chancellor c,r his be affected by ig. In this view of the case, and in or-
pFlplu of Ireland had been oppressed. It was a vi- Commander in Chief ! 01 such stron •sh and texture der that we may arrive at that fair and unbiassed and
cious system, and he agreed with Mr. Burke that that appeared to him all the arguments !la it had beeiror i dispassionate result, which, upon every ground of po-
system had been carried to a vicious perfection. Such that could be urged against the claims of the Irish licy and justice, it is our duty to promote, it is, in my
a policy he deplored; he detested the extreme to which Catholics ! From the bottom of his soul he believed opinion, the duty of your Lordships, before you
it had been carried: but while he deplored such a po- that there existed no one solid, ohm season for op.. , some to any decision upon the motion of the Noble
licy, he acknowledged the fatal necessity which gave posing Catholic politic
Emancipation—for not granting to Earl, to take into your consideration—first, What
it birth, and referred for his justification on this head the Irish Catholics the reasonable boon they- re. the effect bf your vote may be on the law of Ireland
to the spirit
Irish Catholics at the period to which he alluded.— to grant, than tiai•irs to receive. ( Hear, hear.)— country—secondly, What the effect may be upon the
The laws which were then enacted, had only for oh-' They had been told, that the lower classes in pai- different branches of the Executive Government of
jest the security of property. But he was sorry to be , titular, of the Irish Catholics, had been much be- test country, as connected with the administration of
obliged to say, that their mischievous influence and nefited by what had already been dune for them ; the law, and with a view to the preservation of the
effects still continued. They were to be found in the but the lower order of the Catholics never trou tranquillity of that country—thirdly, What effect it
idleness and ignorance of the peasantry, as he had al- bled their heads about whether they were quail- may time upon the temper, the calm, sober, and
ready observed ; but that evil was not to be remedied led for Members of Parliament, or to hold the dispassionate feelings of the people of that coun-
by granting to the higher orders of the Catholic per- highest of in the State. (Hear, hear.) —lt try, to which we should at ail times pay proper
suasion the privileges and rank to which they were was not that class of the Catholics that called for the attention, uhenever we proceeded to the discussion
said to be entitled. Was it for such an object that enjoyment of such privileges—it was the higher class of such subjects—feelings, the best that can emanate
the House was called upon to go into a Committee —the Catholics of family, of wealth, an of ednca- from the human heart, of which I trust I have ever
lof Inquiry ? What other grounds had there been- tion that required those qualifications. Grant what been seocibie, and on all occasions proud, and which
for the necessity of such an inquiry at present ? The the Catholics requited, and the higher orders would I have manifested every disposition to appreci-te,
1 Noble Viscount then proceeded to consider the con- not only be satisfied, but the lower class would be as well c n former occasions, when the Catholic ques-
duct of the Irish Government, and the Noble Duke gratified, and all descriptions of them would fel a thin has been agitated, as in the recent instances of
at the head of that Government. 'There was not the stronger inducement than ever to support the Coast'. its discussion. Ilse feelings to which I allude, are
least colour for any of the charges made against that tution. To refuse to listen to their claims might throw the true seurces of our national glory, and upon them,
Government. Above all, no blame could be at toch- the higher orders upon the great mass of the Catho- in my opinion, rests, not alone the security of the cm-
ed to the Noble Duke, with whose generous, humane lies—at all events it might tend to throw the mess pire, but the preset vation of all those blessings which
and gentle nature, he was well acquainted ; a nature into the power and leading of those villainous and we now possess, or can hope hereafter to enjoy, in-
that would never allow him to oppress an individual, evil-disposed persons whose objects were confusion cludin.t the protection and security of the Protestant
much less a large description of his fellow-subjects. and domestic discord—(Hear.) Such, he said, might Establishments in Church and State. Having stated
But why was such a motion as the present deterred be the effect of not listening to them, and he thought thus much generally upon the importance of the guess
till now ? Why has there been no necessity for it the bare possibility of such an event ought to be avert- tion under consideration, and the claim it presents to
during the last eleven years ? Much had been said ed, especially when no mischief could result to the our most serious and 4eliherate attention, I shall now
of the wisdom, the moderation, the patriotism of the State from granting one required emancipation. If proceed to make s :me oban-vations upon the speech
Catholics on various occasions during that period ; the Irish Catholics were placed on an equal footing of the Noble Earl ( litzWilliain), and the reasons
yet it never had been thought necessary until now with their Protestant brethren much good might en- • urged by him in support of his motion. In the first
to adduce the display of these virtues as a ground for sue—it might increase the attachment of the fanner Place, then, I must observe, that he has placed in the
granting a Committee of Inquiry. But it seems that to the existing Government and to the Constitution._ front of his argument, a statement, taken horn a news-
some Noble Lords would have all the laws repealed Where so much was to be attained by granting the paper report, of a transaction, said to have taken
upon which perhaps depends the security of property. honest claims of a great portion of the Irish Com- place in Dublin on 4 recent occasion. What founda-
Yes, have them all repealed ; and yet talk of no se- munity, he thought it unwise indeed to refuse the ' tion there may be for that report, I cannot take upon
curity in their room. The House did not now even present motion. It would be conciliating the discon- me to decide ; but this I will say, that as I never saw,
hear of the Veto. Yet such counter-securities were no tented at a cheap rate. It was perfectly natural for nor read the newspaper statement to which the Noble
doubt absolutely necessary ; should not the King be them to press their claims, they deeming the grant- Earl has alluded, I neither knew nor heard any
made at least a co-ordinate power with the Pope— ing them necessary to the consummation of solemn thing of the transaction to which it refers, till I
but would the t atholics agree to this ? Would their promises ; and it was equally natural for them to learned it from the speech of the Noble Earl. The
Hierarchy submit to this? he believed' not. While feel sore at the idea of being, what they called, use made of the report, by the Noble Ear!, was
such a state of things remained, he must dread not oppressed. Such they conceived themselves to be exactly what it was intended to give rise to—an in-
only the opinions, but the morals of the Catholics.— in some way, and those were not wanting who were sinuation against an Officer employed under the
He could not consent, without due provisions I R. the constantly dinning in their ears sentiments of such ' Irish Government, of an intention, on his part, to
safety of the present establishments, to place in the a tendency. Grant them, then, what they required,' procure an unfair return of the panne' of a Jury. I
hands of the Catholics high military and legislative and the causes for such complaint would be removed, .am not aware how that fact stands, not having heard
authority. He could not assent to this equalizing of and there would no longer remain the opportunity of any thing of the circumstances till I heard it in this
religions. He could not assent to see the symbols and circulating the idea amongst the Irish Catholics that House ; but I must aid, that I have also heard, that
atrrihntes of authority carried one day to Church, they were oppressed.—(Hear, /rear.)—The Noble the objection upon which the insinuation was founded,
And the next to Mass. Ihe union of the Church and Lord then proceeded to notice the state of the Penal . has been subsequently ever-ruled by the Court. If
State should ever be held sacred by him. They were Laws, so far as they affected the Catholics ; obseea. ' the Noble Earl had been apprised of this dream-
inseparatily united, and every tiling would be risked ing that they so affected the Irish soldier, on his ' stance, or other circumstances, which I understand
by the dissolution of that union, of that most sacred coming to this country, that such a code would be a • also to have since taken place, he would have discar-
alliance. Fromt its downfall, the most dreadful poli- shame to the Mahomedans ! The Noble Lord, in re- : ded the consideration from his mind, and not thought
tical convulsions and every other species of misery marking on the Game Laws of Ireland, by which no of it befitting the digniti of you* Lordship? proceed-
might justly be apprehended. With such an impres- Catholic was allowed to carry a gun, observed, that ings, to make it the ground of any proposition to be
, sion on his mind, he could vote for nothing that had they were so dreadful, and held in such detestation, ! submitted for your consideration. This then, being
!so fatal a tendency ;he must therefore oppose the mo- tnat not one individu 11 from amongst the very dregs the case, I will ask the Noble Lord, whetfier he
tion of the Noble Earl. lof the people, could ever be induced inform against . thinks a common newspaper report a sufficient rea-
Lord HARDWICKE briefly explained. I any violator of those laws. They were so ashamed , son to induce your Lordships to go into an inquiry
Lord SOMERS, in rising to support the motion, of them, that they could never be made to act ac- into the state of Ireland ? Does the Noble Earl
expressed his firm conviction that the approval of it ! cording to their spirit, nor to promote the punish- really think so ? Or can any of your Lordships en-
would tend to promote the well-being of the country ment of those who disobeyed them ! If, then, some ! tertain the notion for. a single moment, when you
mere than could any other question that it was pos- of the laws in existence against the Catholics were so consider that the foundation of every cavil was re-
! Bible to bring before that House. With respect to the dreadful, that they would shame the Mahomedans, . moved by the decision of the Court, and that this
lexpectations of the people of Ireland, on the subject and others were of such a nature, that the people was followed up by other circumstances which, if
lof the Catholic claims, his Lordship observed, that, for whom they were meant were act'uliy ashamed known to the Noble Earl, would have prevented
had it not been expressly understood by the peo. le , of them, so much so, that none could be found to . him from adverting to such an authority in the
of Ireland, previous to the tiniest, that emancipation inform against the violaters of them, was it not manner he has done? For my own part, I must
would follow that event, he questioned very much i expedient that the claims of the Catholic should be say, that I do not consider this a sufficient ground
whether such members of them would li we signed . made the subject of inquiry ? Something, it was for going into an inquiry into the state of Ireland.
the petition to bring about that measure. Much had true, had been done for the Irish Catholics of late , Then the Noble Earl has made this the subject of a
been said against the claims of the Catholics—claims years ; indeed too much had been done for them charge against the Government of Ireland. Upon
which they deemed to be founded both in justice and to stop without doing more. The principles of this point I have only to state, that if I had heard
I
in solemn promises held out to them at the time of j policy and of justice required that more should be one word tending to convict that Government of any
the Union. If, however, it could be shewn that no j done for them: those principles required that the Irish : improper interference between the Subject and the
mischief would result from liste ing to their claims, ! Catholics should, enjoy all that is possessed by. their i Crown, or the People and the Parliament—if there
he did not sce how their Lordships could coneis:ently ! Protestant brethren. To grant them the privileges; was a tittle of evidence to that effect, or that could
refuse the motion for a Committee. To proceed by , they require would be advantageous to them and be- : whew by any act, directly or indirectly, that Govern-
a negative mode of reasoning, he felt fully convinced ; neficial to us , • and he trusted that the tune was not ment had iuterposed its authority for the purpose of
that no mischief could arise from granting to the Ca- I far distant when they would enjoy those rights and ; preventing the exercise of the legitimate right of the
tholics the emancipation they required. In the first privileges to which they had so much just claim. i subject to petition,--or if in any of the measures which
place, he would ask, their Lordships what mischief His Lordship, in conclusion, remarked, that it had that Government felt it necessary to take upon the
could result from permitting Catholic Members of ; been generally understood that the Prince's former occasion, any opinion whatever had been given upon
Parliament ? What harm could result from permit- 1 sentiments were favourable to the Irish Catholics. the subject of the Catholic Claims, or the merits of
ting fifty or sixty Roman Catholic Members to form i He knew nor what those opinions might nowise; but their intended Petitions, I should consider that Go-
vernment unworthy of the support of the Govern.
i a portion of the whole House of Commons ? Fifty if Ministers had been so bold as to advise a change of
mein of this country, and undeserving ot the app
!or sixty Members, forming a part of a body of be- those sentiments, they had done a grievous wrong.'
tween five and six hundred, could not do much injury He approved of the motion for a Committee, think-1 bation of the public. Bat no such step has been.
Ito the State. In the measure of the Union he rejoicing it imperiously incumbent on their Lordships to 1 taken. No impediment has been thrown in the way
ed, he deeming the completion of that measure a inquire into the state of Ireland. -of the legal right of the Subject to petition the .
happy event for both countries ; butt he was firmly of Lord SIDMOUTH explained. Crown or the Legislature. When the question arose
• opinion, that the Catholics ought to be emancipated Marqhis WELLESLEY' then rose and spoke to respecting the construction and application of the
Convention Act, it has been at all times made a tbs. .
the following effect :—" My Lords, I am fully aware
' from those fettering laws which, anongstrather things,
prevented them from holding seats in h Pat • ament.— of the magnitude and imprtance of the subject sub- tinct and separate consideration from any thing con-
!He had said that no mischief could result from ad- mined to your Lordships' consideration by the Mo- fleeted with the right of petition. It has been so con.
1 mitting Irish Catholics into the House of Commons. tion of the Noble Earl who originated this discussion. sidered by the G;aienunent, and so argued solemnly
i greater and gravely, and repeatedly, by all the Crown Law-
madeOf this he was strongly convinced, and his belief was lam thoroughly convinced that a question of
still mote strung from the circumstance, that consequence to the welfare and prosperity of this em- yers in Ireland, in all the pleadings and forensic dis-
almost all those Representatives for places where the pire could not be made the subject of debate in this cessions which have taken. place upon this subject.—
Constituents priacipally consisted of Catholics, voted House, whether it be considered. with respect to At all timeo—on all occasions, and'under all circum-
invariably in favour of Catholic claims. If then the the extent of the interests immesh.
etely at issue, or stances, the. right of the subject to petition has
I present Members voted • d
in favour of the Catholic with respect to the effect the decision may have been studiously and carefully excluded from all the
' claims, what more Mild be done by Irish Catholic upon the means, the resources, and energies of adverse deliberations and discus iions of the qulstion
1-Representatives themselves? These Protest*tt Mem- the country, at this most awful crisis. A subject of at issue. In the name of his Majesty's Servants therel
hers voted as would do the Catholic Representatives, such moment must at any Mme, and under any fore, and en behalf of the Diah Government, I wish
yet what mischief resulted from their advocating the circumstances, claim and command the serious to deny strenuously and positively that any charge,
cause of the Irish Roman Catholics?
' Should the attention of Parliament ; but from your Lord- such as that brought forward, justly lies against al
disqualifying laws be repealed, without doubt the ships, who arc Legislators by virtue of your birth, conduct generally, or its particular measures. I are
placiis in question would sand to Parliament Catholic and are consequently hereditary Counsellors
denial
of theperhaps the more anxious to give this bold and positive
Itepre Wives, the majority of the Constituents be- Crown, a question of this nature is entitled to the denial to the charge, because, as may well be suppo.
ing of the Catholic religion
• . and' fifty or sixty such most impartial and deliberate consideration. No hen set, I m i.t feel paincularly interested in any charge
Members so returned, it was feared, would overturn Government.
I look to it as it presents itself to our notice, I can- affective, that I am thoroughly per.
our Co ' ution I Fifty or sixty Irish Catholic not consider it in any other liehr than as 'a ' besides that ench aproceeding is
subject suadee, be- ides, e , not only-
Ivleinbers overturn our Constitution I Goa forbid as deeply interesting to the welfare and prosperity of contrary to the feelings, sentiments, and principles of
,
that it should stand on so slender a foundation I.the atm.. ' the country as any which has ever occupied the Nettle Nettle eclat-maze at the head of the lush Govern.

' •
5..
• •
=eat, but peculiarly repugnant to the habits and prin-
"iplea of the person who was his chief adviser on the
occasion adverted to. I am persuaded that nothing
could be more abhorrent from the nature or feelings
-or dispOsition of that person, than to staid between his
fellgr-subjects stud the Legislature, and if I had no
• other ground for the; conviction'l feel respecting the
purity of the motives which actuate the Noble Duke
aithe head of the Irish Government, than his conduct
respecting the Catholic claims, I am satisfied that he
would be the last person to interfere between a great,
ble; and es ccted class of his fellow-subjects
respectable; p •
and the Sovereign or rho Leftslature. . But, as I have
• before stated, in point of Act no 'such interference
'took place. The construction and application of the
' Convention Act, which the Irish Government • felt
itself called upon to adopt and enforce, has been
Thorne out by_the concurrent opinions of all the Law
'Officers of that coutory, and sanctioned by the una-
• nimous deciicn of the Judges of the Court of King's
13ench. The impression of the Irish Government
then was, that a Convention, such as that proposed
to be assembled by the Catholics, was contrary to
law.—Measures were therefore taken to prevent the elections
which were on the eve of taking place. If the constitution of
;welt an assembly was il'egal, the act of procuring elections of
Al embers; to comprise it mug have been contrary to law, and the
Coverement was fully justified in the measures which it re-
• sorted to with a s sew ro prevent their taking place. For my
pert, without feeling it necessary to enter into that part of
• the subject at present, I am prepared to say, that, as well as the
-circumstances in which the Convention Act was passed, as in
those in which it has recently been put in force, the measure was
equally wise anil necessary. I remember well the oqasion, and
_all the awful characteristics of the moment, when die measure
was first brought forward. I remember, too, that at the time, it
had the sanction of the approbation of the late Mr. Fox. So
strong was my sense of its propriety and urgency at that time,
tLat, though I was then in opposition to the Irish Government of
that day, I gave the measure my cordial* support, because I con-
sidered it indispensably necessary to the security and pre-
servation of the country. The opinion of that great States-
man, (Mr. Fox), to which I have before alluded, was, that
if the People ot Ireland were to be allowed to form a Con-
vention, such as that which was then in contemplation, consist-
ing of an assembly so constituted, and growing out of the con-
certed forms of election, that nothing could he expt end to result
from it but an immediate and dangerous heerruptioa to the tran-
quillity of the country, and a long train of all possible mischiev-
ous consequences. The Convention Alt was consequently passed,
and the efface was that it immediately pit down those danger-
ous assemblies which threatened so much mischief to the interests
of the nation. When similar assemblies were abeat to be formed
in Ireland in the recent instance, the Government felt It neces-
sary to put this Act in force. It did so for the security of the
country, and if the Irish Government be to blame in any rerpect,
it is that in suffering tome progress to be made in the elections,
which it should have prevented; it was, so far from being severe,
rasher more lenient titan it ought. Yet it may well be supposed
prudent in that Government to have abstained from any etercise
of its power, till the evil had increased to such magnitude as to
call for its interference. But when this was the case, did the
Government resort to the execution of the law without notice or
communication to the parties? No such thing. A private ad-
monition was most properly and decorously sent to the leaders of
• 4.he Catholic party, apprizing them of the illegality of the course
they were rumble. said, at the same time, intimating the deter-
. mination of the Government to enforce the law. This admoni-
tion proved ineffectual, consequently a rroclamadon was issued
by the GovernMent, declaring what the law was, aid announcing
the intention of Government to.put it in force. What was the
consequence ? That the Catholics proceeded with their elections
to the proposed assembly ; that they d liberate!), continued their
violations of law ; and thut the Government of Ireland had no al-
ternative but to lab: the law of the land to he violated with Ms.
punity, or to put down the Catholic elections to a Convent ofl,
by-enforcing the provisions of the I:.ve. Does any Noble Lord
entertain a dout t uron the subject, let him look to what has
taken place, to remove every douht—let hint look to those legal
proceedings which supply so many brilliant specimens of the pre-
torynf the Irish Bar, and to the grave and learned opiiiioris pro-
pounded serialm, but concurrently, by the distinguished pi r-
eonagi a who fill Vita bench in the Court in which the proceedings
took pace. It il.e law then be as I have rated it, ii the Catho-
hes, by persevt rug in tittle purpose of electing represen-
tatives to an illegal assembly violated that law—and if the con-
current opink:ns of the Bar and the Bench, and the unanimous
decision of the Judges, be a satisfectory exposition of the state
01 the law what ground Is tatre, I will ask, upon this view of
the case, for your Lordships to go into an inquiry into the state
of Ireland Why are we to be called upon to institute so solemn
and important a Parliamentary proceeding, as if -the Govern-
ment of Ireland had been guilty of some gross violation of the
Law and the Constitution—as if the persons in power in that
country, had abt;Sed the authuri y ot office to the oppression
ot the subj, ct, and to the extmetion of his legitimate rights, and
the suppression of h.s privilege of complaint by petition—as
if the Judges, instead of being the impartial administrators of
the law, had put arbitrary constructions upon its enactments,
with a view to harass individuals, and wrested their obvious
meaning, for the purpose ot pandering to the arbitrary passions
ot the Government—as it the Irish Admiuistratton Lad really
interleted with the great right of the subject to petition, or had
tirade any itsiquitous attempt, by the weight of its authority,
to truth the Catholic claims? Unless these charge• can be
made out'aga lust the Government of lioao, I cart never bring
myself to coos• at to the inquiry now prepeted ; and upon this
impris,,too I feel it, wholly impossible to accede to the motion
of the Noble Earl. But I cannot conclude what I have to say
upon this part of the case without adding, that I cannot conceive
any injury that would be greater—r.y preceetling that would
be more likely to produce the mischief; which it wes the
object of tie Convention Act to prevent, than to buff; r the
Catholics to proceed to assertible their Convention contrary to
law. And I must always contend, that in the admonition given
to them by the Goverument, a course bad been taken which
was most salutary to thee- own cause. Could any thing, I
will ask, be more likely to effect thb final success of their appli-
cation to the Legisiature, than the perseverance in a conduct
which was hi direct opposition and ht ter vestee to the declared in-
tentioos of Government expressed in a formal prociam ation, an-
muunelog the state of the law, and notifying the intention to gels ,
force it ? The Convention Act, I will admit,vras not passedagalnet
Caibolieseoe any other partizubr class of subjects, but against the
cowsonwity.gootratly, or such petitions of it as may be shimmed
to form suet. couvietions as it was the purview crtlitlawto put
'down and prevent. It applies equally to all elastics, and.Wia
• tended altogether for use purpose of preventing any step being
taken for the purpose ot forming assemblies injurious to me-
safety.--Itavitig taken this view of the principle, I come-now
to touch upon the effect that might. pessibly.be produced by the
adoption of the Notate Earl. if your Lor4ps were to co sir in
taus mot:on, who could say that your acquiescence in it would
not be construed into an intention, on your part, that it should
be considered as admitted by you that the assembly to which I
have been alluding was and would be legal? Will any one of
your Lordships say that such an assembly would be an excellent
institution ? Is that your opinion? Do you think so? Can you
believe that such a convention, so- elected and so constituted,
mould be legal, or could be harmless ? Is there an individual,
whether hind or opponent of the Catholic claims, who can
think that such a meeting would not be dangerous ? Does any
men believe in the latrutiessness of such an institution, whether
he be a person who fees that the Protestant Establishment
should be matntained with all their ascendancy and Ire-eminence,
or that the Catholics should be adntttttd, without Feet rve, to a
part-cipat'on of all tit. rights, inimunitiee, and privileges enjoyed
by any other class of his ;Weirs, y's subjects ? Let me see the man
who goes not think that a convention so formed and constituted
ought not to be condemned and stigmatised by every 'Hold to
law and order, and would not be likely to prove more injurious
than any occurrence in the whole history of the country.—
With ;agent to the abstract subject of the precise limits of
the distinction between toleration and the nneouragement
of the Catholic pretensions, it may perhaps, be difficult to state
any accurate definition; and I shall not, therefore trouble your
Lord hips with any attempt to ascertain the exact boundary. It
appears to me, that rio precise line of distinction can at any time
be drawn without a full aad comprehensive consideration of all
the existing circumstances ot the period. The case reenecting the
Catholics is not now, nor has it ever been, a qu:stion respecting

Merely the restraining of any panicular religious principles or epi- ,
nions. Every State is perfectly justified io restraining any principles
or any setts, which are likely to prove injurious to its interests or
dangerous to its security. If therestraints be limited to the extent
of the necessity that calls for ihem,they are completely justifiable and '
justified; but no community can, with propriety, carry restraints
beyond the limit which the expediency and necessity for their
enactment require. The question, therefore, now, as it applies
to the case of the Catholics of Ireland, is, to what degree are
we justified in continuing restraints upon them, and what are
the instances of restriction which we may, without risk or
danger, relinquisi.? For my own part, I have no hesitation to
declare to your Lorelehlis that I hold all restraints to be in
themselves pmitive evils. Whether I am right or in error in
holding this opinion, anti these erinciples, it is not for me to
decide. This I know, that I have been born with them, been
educated with them, that they have grown up with my years,
and will accompany me to my grave, that they are interwove%
in my political creed, and too firnaly established to be ever era-
dicated. Upon these principles it is that I hold ahy restraints
upon any class of subjects, which preclude them from the pos-
crime and enjoyment of any rights or immuniti,s' accessible
to any other class of subjects, arc in themselves evils, and only
tolerable when the amount of the danger from their removal
exceeds the mischiefs of their continuance. The danger, I will
admit, may be greater, if so, I say hold to your restraints:
but, if the contrary be the case, then, there is no principle of
prudent policy or a sound discretion that will justify the con-
tinuanee of restraints beyond the actual necessity. I have heard
that an opinion has been urged in other places, though I base
never heard it stated in this House, nor has it that I know of
been stated in the other House of Parliament, that these re-
straints are in themselves a positive good, (Hear!) that they have
been rt presented as the means not of protecting the establishment
or defending the altar, but as the rel•gion and the altar for which
_ _

they were originally intended as guards—not as the defence of
the sanctuary, but as the sanctuary and the ark itself—(Hear,
hear !f But no man seriously, in my opinion, defends these re-
' *tractions upon any such grounds—no mat can reconcile to him-
self the absurdity of considering such measures of security for the
Altar, as that altar which they were intended to secure. With
respect to the question brought forward by the Noble Earl this
day, and that ultimate one to which it points, I must say, that,
in order to Insure any agreement, much n ust be conceded on
either side. If we wish to insure concord we must take down
much of the vehemence on both parts ; we must take down the
pomp anl parade aid ostentation of the claim of right on one
hand, and from the violence and fury of intemperate zeal on the
other. But upon the general ground, I will ask whether it is not
expedient that the restrictions should be taken off the Catholics?
In my opinion, an opinion formed upon the best and most deli-
berate consideration which I have been able to give the subject,
the removal of those restrictions would be not only not dangerous,
bin would afford an additional security to the Protestant Estab-
li,hments of the Empire, and more particularly in Ireland (
I am not now disposed or prepared to state what may be the
pr,e'se extent or measures of security which may be necessary
in order to pros ide for the future safety of these establish-
ments. It has always been my opinion, that the best mode of
providing for the real interests of the mpire, would be to dis-
array the distinct'ons rctpecting political rights of that rancour
.which embodies the 'lit contents of the country—to remove that

prinSple of seporstion of the people, which bolds the divatis-
fied and disaffected connected against the com.-no ainterest, and

prevents that union of heart and sentiment which is tits best
tone& ion of a nation's welfare. Upon the closest and best con-
sideration which I have given the question, therefore, I amper-
suaded that every restriction ought to be removed—bet re-
moved in such a manner, that the Legislature might have the

portunity of discussing the pr..iicipie and terms of the'remoial
in every stage °idle business, and be thereby enabled to combine,
with the release of the Catholics from their disabilities, the
enacimert of adequate securities for the protection of the Pro-
testant Establishments. By such a measure, we should get rid
of that principle that arrays and embodies the whole force of
the country against the k.'stablishments. By removing the dis-
qualifications, and giving to the BulividuaL, a personal inte-
rest in the support of the Establishments, we shall embody that
force for their preservation, which in the present state of things
•must be arrayed for their overthrow. I know it may be said, as
it has been said, that if we were to grant the present claims of
the Catholics, they would nut be satisfied, but would demand
something more. Much, it is urged, has been granted to them,
and it Is asked whether they pave rested satisfied 1 But this, I
contend, affords nu just ground of objection against their claims.
If we are now to open a new field of concession—if we had
not previously made any arrang,ment for their relief—if we hid
not admitted client upon any terms to a pat ticipation of political
power, we might, I will admit, very reasonably, exercise our
judgment upon the subject. But wha:, I will ask, is the snuatiou
of the Catholics of Ireland What is the view that any States•
man would be bound to tike of it? Do the Catholics not possess
political power t Every man who knows any thing of the situa-
tion of that country, must be sensible that th-y do. If we give
them an individual interest in the support of tits! establshments,
by granting their claims, there will be no danger in the grant.—
Any thing that is to be apprehended, mu t elite trom the presets
situat'ota of things, which di►sociates them from .any interest in
the permanent support of the estabitshinents. 1 his is no prin.-
ciple novel to the Constitution ef this country. The whole
frame and existence of the Constitution itself depend upon
this principle of the individual interest that all the parts have
in the general presenration of the whole. It is absurd to
suppose that the balance of King, lords, and Commons, is
preserved by their mutual check• and interference. This House
has many points of connection with the people, so also has the
other House of Parliament in a greater degree :--both Houses
have. also bonds of connexion with the-Crown, and it is by the
common nose of a common interest in maintaining the Cousti-
tution,that that Constitution is presetv,d, rather than by any sys-
tem of mutual restraint or interference. Let us then give the
Catholics the Individual interest in the State—let us fill up those
interstices occasioned by their exclueion from civil I•rtvdeges in
the Constitution, and we shall bind them to the support of our
establishments. But it is paid, that when they seek the
admission to the higher offices of the different professiwn 4, their
wishes are unreasonable. Is it theta unteasonable, if a gallant
officer distinguishes himself, that he should wish for the natu-
ral reward of valour ? These wishes we have ourselves caused

intilein:rbeq;;; foundetiuPohthe truest, the aoundeat and
the best principles. But it is said now that the PopiAismcces-
j.sion is extinct now, that the Catholics according to the deci-
i Won of the six principal of their Universities in Europe, abjure
the dangerous doctrines which formerly formed a part of their
; tenets, that they have a right to be admitted into the possession
Of every prhrilego enjoyed by any other subject; 1 hey have
removed, Us doubt, many objections to the grant of their
claims. But it was not against the dangers of a Popish succession,
I or the consequences of their exceptionable doctrines, so much as
against the possible danger of the introduction of arbitrary power
in o this country that the rectictlons were imposed. Having said
thus Mach as to the claims, the Noble Earl will do me the justle
to behave that 1 am substantially with them, though I cannot con-
ceive any time more unfavourable for pressing them than the pre.
sent, when the objections enter ta'ned by many. very w.1.-meaning
persons eget• st them are increased by the Catholics themselves in
theirsleteintimd violation of the law. I trust that the Catholics,
and those well disposed to their claims, will employ themselves in
devrsi4 proper means to provide securities for the Protestant este-
Wilma:is whenever it may be the w.ll of the Legislature to
grant their clainis—thatthey cast off the intemperate spirit with
which they are at present aternstrd, and present themselves be-
fare Parliament in the modest geese of suit r.ring and petitioner.—
that they will not think to make the Protestant Sceptre of this
empire bow to claims preferred from any quarter, however re-
spectable—that they shall not seek to attain their objects by means
likely to overthrow the bulwarks of that Constitution, which is
to them, equally with the Protestants, the surest pledges of their
rights end libel ties—and that, with a due submission to the au-
thority of Parliament, and a just veneration for the principles of
the Constitui ion, they will present their claims to a participation of
all the rights enjoyed by any other class of his ISlaj.,sty's still, cis."
Lord CARY sFORT supported the motion, end particularly
insisted on the bad moral effect which the penal laws had on the
civilisation, the habits, and the feelings of the people or Ireland.
The Earl of IA ESTMORLANL) entered at large into the
history of the efforts which, he sa.d, a party in Ireland had been
for ever making to separate the two countries. Whatever spe-
cious pretences the discontented in Ireland professed to act upon,
their ultimate and grand object was re/tar-at/6s. It was the same
sprit which pervaded and inflamed the conventiouists of the se-
venteenth century, those of Dungannon, and those of the present
day. 'I o say that toe peasantry of Ireland would be bettered by
emancipation, was just as fine a thing as to predict, that the
frame-breaking riots at Nottingham would be put an end to by a
reform in Parliament.

Lord IViOIRA said that there wa; an obvious distinct on be-
tween natural and iolltical ights, ha unt species were nut to

-.. .

be refused to any hutnan being ; the other might. The Trish
called for political rights, not without a perfect acknowledgment
that they might he limited by the donors. The call was to be
resisted, under the pretence that they were hostile to the Church
of England : but this was refuted by the terms of the application,
they came as Britons to ask their rights of Britons, and offering
all the security that that could be asked for their giving up all
idea of injury to the Established Church. They had no idea of
succeeding by menace. Their petitions were in the language
of humility ; and they entreated of the bounty of the .Legislatcre,
what they had a right to demand of its jwitice. The great bulk
of the landed interest of Ireland ca'led distinctly for Catholic
Emancipation, and was it at this hour that the just demand of thF
Irish nation was to be refused ?

If the inertness of Ireland was complained of, what would be
the effect of its total alienation, and in this hour, too,when we
engaged in a struggle with the greatest power f the Con-
tinent, with a man at its head, whose sagacity, skill, and fore-
sight were sharpened by personal hatred to England. Why re.
fuse Catholic Emancipation? It was answered, because the
Church would be in danger: tut was all the danger of the
Church to come from the Catholics ? Was there to be none
from Bonapatte ? Wai not this voluntary abandonment of our
great strength like throwing off our breastplate when we were
about to descend into the lists ? No; but Catholic depression
might bring over converts. Quite the contrary. It had ope-
rated as a bar. ft was a landmark which no man would at-
tempt to pass wi,hout incurring the imputation of baser mo-
tives. A Noble Lord had hinted something about the connec-
tion between the Church and the Stste. He (Lord Moira)
wished to be distinctly understood in speaking of this. If it
meant that connection by which the State rrovided for the
existence of a Chureh, wish its natural objects of ellimiing
the people, teaching them religious feeling, and administetirg
consolation to the sufferer on the death-bed, ht was, and
would always be, among the first In applauding and support: ng that
connexion—but if it meant u.ing the power of religious opinien-
to assist the State in infringing civil Lberty, that, in turn, the ;
State might assist it in eurta ling regions freedom, he was not
merely strong in reprobating, but thinking those worthy of pu- 1
nishment who supported that guilty canines on. Eut it was not
the spirit of the Church of England to be perstentmg. It never
forced opinion—it desired all men to exert their rim n joilgment-e
give them the institute of religion, and bid them read for them-
selves. It had not xperience in the connexion with e use of
temporal power. It it began once, it must undergo tit., fate of
all the Churches that had leaned on temporal power. That was
the evil of the very Church whose claims the House were discus-
sing on that night. It leaned on the States of Europe, and strorgly
connected as it was with them, it was ruined by the connexion.
Something ought to be done. Procrastination was a favourite
word with the Noble Lord (Westmorland), but it was a dange-
rous rule of action. Concijiation ought to be the spirit of what-
ever measure they were to adopt. .1 hey were not to suffer the
question to run into a system of pe..wlsb constructions and exas-
perating misrepresentations. They were to meet it In a liberal
and friendly spirit. Not to feel their fall Imminent, and that,
too, with the consciousness that it was hastened by themselves.
Lord MULG RAVE could not see how four mil-
lions of people, men, women, and children, were to
be all discontented, because they could not be Gene-
rals, Admirals, and Jades. There was, besides, no
specific object proposed in the motion for a Commit.
tee. He should therefore oppose the motion.
Lord ERSKINE reminded the last Noble Speaker
that Catholic Petitions, were preparing, and that to
allow of the effect of those, was one of the declared
objects of a Committee. He had heard the speech
of the Noble Marquis (Wellesley) with admiration.
He had heard him state his acquiescence with the
principle of the Catholic claims,, but refuse the
claims en the ground of tumultuous and menacing
conduct in bringing them forward. But when was
the evidence for this before the House ? He (Lord
Erskine) disliked observing on the Courts of Law, but
he must say, he could see but a very faint colour for the
charge against the Catholics. Whatever their errpr
might be, it was obviously nsore that of ignorance,
than of disobedience. He must, in speaking of this,
state principles, which were with him not the princi-
ples of an hour. He saw an eternal distinction be-
tween the Common and Statute Law. The Com.
mon was interpreted by decisions, by long opinion,
by the general sense. The Statute was itst own in-
' terpreter. He could not think that the Catholics
had offended against the statute. If their meetings
had been plainly tumultuous,—if they bad
.me: de-
cidedly to overawe the Legislature, they would
be guilty of a high misdemeanour without the
statute. That was the case of a Noble Lord
( Lord G. Gordon) whom he had defended early in his
professional life, and who was brought in peril, ..re-
rn
yas the inciter of-a mob to overawe the legislature.
The Convention Act was dot intended to prevent the
meeting of assemblies for a legal purpose. The de-
sir of tit was to prevent the dangerous machinations
of those who, professing one purpose, assembled for
another ; and made a pretence of a legal object, the
better to carry into effect measures dangerous to the
security of the Government and the tranquillity of
the country. But if Ireland was in such a state of
tumult and disorder, was it wise on such grounds to
repel the Catholic petition ? Every time jt was re-
jected, it would come in a more dangerous shape ;
and the concession ought to be made, while it could
be made in a dignified manner.
Earl DARNLEY urged the policy of acceding im-
mediately, and with a good grace, to claims which, from
a sense of justice, must be conceded sooner or later.
The Earl of BUCKINGHAMSHIRE was of
opinion, that to grant the prayer of the Catholic peti-
tion would be so far from producing tranquillity in
Ireland, that it would be a source of greater discord
and contention than before.

Earl GREY, with reference to the observations
made by the Noble Earl who last spoke as to the in•
tervention of the disqualifying Statutes and the Co-
ronation Oath, asked, how came his Majesty to re-
commend to the Government, on a former occasion,
those concessions which the Noble Earl now conceiv-
ed would, if granted, lead to the destruction of the
kingdom ? With respect to the Act, he challenged
the Noble Lord on the Woolsack to prove that it
wOuld bear the construction put on it; the Catholics of
I his time (in 1793) were received by the Government
[ of England with cordiality and approbation—were in-
-1 trodnced to the King, and promised certain indulge's-
'cies which were secured by the Act in question, which
was by the present Government in Ireland deemed ille-
gal. The preamble of the Act expressly stated that the
indulgencies were_granted on account of ~ the loyal
demeanour of the delegates," and therefore it was nt
such restraints and disabilities as they were under,
should be discontinued." The Legislature of that
day never had it in contemplation to prohibit the
Meetings; the Act was a declaratory one, so recog-
nized by Lord Clare, by Mr. Wolfe, afterwards Lord
Kilwarden ; and only in the last year, the Noble and
Learned Lord on the Woolsack asserted the same.
The Noble Earl contended, that on all occasions
Meetings for innocent and Constitutional purposes
were not disapproved by the Government. It was so
with the Society of Delegates for Reform, in 17824
and on all subjects connected with the liberty of the
people. He defied any one to shew him, in the history
of the country, any Act which was intender' to pr )hi.
bit such meeting. The statute of Charles the Second

ianledto snit
mvetut thati.
. .
wed
was not to be relied on, because that was pa in
the very fever of royalty, when unfortunately too
little regard was paid to the rights of the subject,
and ton much cause for corny:Lining of the invasion
* unlawfulwasim one,s s
It b
otlii-ethAe sCsemonsbtliytuwtionas a
n
proved to bring it within the meaning ortheAct; bar;
being so proved, it was a legitimate :noting ;
and to
pretend it was dangerous to the Constitution and the
State, and not the principle of the English 1 The
lan.
Noble Earl argued at very great length upon the coy.
struction of the statutes, contending that in the one
relied on, there was no allegation that the Assert)*
met for " a pretended purpose," which the Sed;tioir
Act of 179 G expressly states to be ground for appre.
hension. The misconduct of the Irish Governnieat
wts unwise, impolitic, and unjust, in the I;:gile,t
degree. The intemperate letter of Mr. Pol-, rf
which so much had been said, was admitted b)
the Noble and Learned Lord on the Woolsack tv%
be " slovenly worded ;" and was in his (Lord Grey's)
opinion, disgraceful to the Governmnnt. Ile dal
reprobated the conduct of the Law Officers, and t,y
the ChiefJustice,respecting the arrest of; the Delegates.
The latter bad issued his warrant for their arrest, act
under,the words of the Act, but with a view to s'it
the record afterwards to be filed agioinst them, for he
charges them "with meeting for the purpose, and
under the pretence of petitioning ;" when,infact,they
actually met for the regal purpostfpetitioning,and nut
under the pretence of so doing. This wasaniode of pro..
ceeding on the part of the Chief Justice, which wa;
extra judicial. What confidence could the public of
Ireland have in the administration of justice in that
kingdom—? The object of the Ronan Catholics was
a laudable one; the meeting, which they hadi had
before, in such large numbers, might be a teason for
jealousy in the Government, but not for oversuoinini
the Law. Was the. Government afraid of the molt
respectable of the Irish population;? He reconn,a.
deal, instead of coercive measures, those of concilii.
Lion, beneficence, and justice, to secure the hearts of
a brave and loyal people. To what a state was thil
country now reduced, with the present aspect c
affairs with America, and with every thing dear at
stake with respect to Ireland? He would recall to
the recollection of the House the conduct of the GO.
vernment towards America in the former unhappy
struggle; America had then sent petitions to the
House, and remonstrated in the most humble tone?
as the Catholics had 'done since, and tLky,. like thou
of the Catholics, were not attended to: the cone.
quence of that was a war, and that a war in which,
after a series of digraces, we were defeated. At the
period of the Union, the Catholics expected the re.
dress of their grievances, but in this they were disap.
pointed. He was happy to hear from a Noble yin
count that the Catholics of England were about tobe
placed in the same situation wth those of Ireland.
Lord SI DMOUTH, in exp!anatien, said he had
stated no such thing—the object of the Bill which hc
should introduce would go no farther than to place
them on the same footing with respect to military
commiss'ons alone.
Lord LIVERPOOL said, his sentiments upon the
question were known, and he should be ready to re.
t them when it was brought properly before then.Util the securities could be proposed, he did not ap.
prove (inciting the expectations and passions of the
people.
Lord GRENVILLE regretted that the Noble
Lord had not acted upon this principle some year;
ago, and disdained to excite the passions of the pea
ple,instead of being one of an Administration, oar
had excited the diabolical cry of " No Popery Vi—
to serve their own purposes. Were they now to ash
what part of the conduct of Government WAS oda.
vourable to the Catholics, when it was ev:deat dust
every part was m riled with hostilit y and malignity?
He then entered into a long. discussion to prose the
I lepliry of the Catholic Meetings, and concluded with
an exhortation to adopt the course of Conciliation.
The House then divided, when there app red
Contents,42—Pmxies,37-79--WonConterts,BG—PTonrg,
76-162-.4—Majority aearnst the Motion, 93.
Adjourned at HALF-PAST SIX.

Mr. &toot!, one of the Pollee Magistrates bellemging to Mad.
borough-street Office, died suddenly in hfariburuugh•urar,oa
Wednesday night.
Gawler was on the 2sth at Newcastle. fir bad kft LAI•
don for that place in a collier, the Cap a n of srat'ch Sul veing
him, save information to the Mayor, who isstneamly ditensti
bins to be secured.

SWIFT'S is the only Office that sold a Prize of 130,000 is
Shares, in the last Loam.
BRITISH CALLER[ or Pscrcats.—The Subset.then to do
above Work are respectfn!ly informed, that Number V. of the
FIR sr Stitiz 9, and IV. of the'Stcoun Stairs, are this day rob.,
lhhed.—The Exhibition continues open. Admiolo4l to 11P
Subscribtrk, One Qhilling.—No. 54, Ncw Bood•gereet.

OFFICE OF ORDNANCE, Jaw. IS, Int
THE PRINCIPAL. OFFICERS of HIS MA
.INS 77". ORDNANCE, d. Arrth ewe Nogirrt
That Proposals will be received at their Me in ihn•hfil,
on or before Monday, the 3d of Febrnary nett, from such pewolo
as may be trilling to undertake the supply of BEDDING&
service of•this Department, for a period of three Years,dW'
at the expiration of one yeat, at the option fit' defter pot?.
Pitterlis of the Articles may be vievred upon apPitad"
the prineipal Storekeeper's Office, in the Tower; and farther
Particallars, together with the Terms and Condition el*
Contract, may be known at the Seeretar,'s Office, in PIP*
aforesaid, any day between the hours of Ten and Font o'Ciocks
where the eroposals must be delivered, sealed up, and eedersta
" Proposals for Bedding;" but no Proposal can be admitted thy
the said 34 day of February, at Twelve e'Clork at nom d
same day; neither will any Tender be noticed unless doe PM
making it, or an Agent in his behalf shall attend.
By Order of the board, IL H. CAM, Ewer*

OFFICE OF ORDMINCE, Jesuitry 15, NM
THE PRINCIPAL OFFICERS OF XQ Nit
JESTrs ORDNANCi, ds Away ewe airits. •
That Proposals will be received at dmir Oct,fs Palt
on or before Monday, the Sd day of February oen,..im
such persons as may be willing to undertake the saFPIT "Ir..
BAGS for Strike of tbis Department, for a period d
years, determinable at the expiration of one year/ at thelOili°
of earlier party. •
Patterns of the Articles may be viewed upon
Principal Storekeeper's Oflice at the Tower, aed
lan, together with the Terms sad Condition of the
may be known at the Secretary's Olice, in Pall. Niall 110010
any day between the hours of tea and four o'clock, wbers,
Proposals must be delivered, sealed up, aad codararal:
posala for Sand Bags;" but no Proposal can be adsitlgged—.6mafs
said Sd day of February, at twelve o'clock at Woe el file
day, neither will any fender be noticed umbels the party
it or an agent in his behalf, shall aucud.
By Order of the Board, R. H. CLAW, ii*„.
LONDON s Priatad by Levet. K stir Picketalasa•
rebigied itott at tie •