Star.
London, England, 1824-05-05 00:00:00

EMPLOYMENT OP THE IRISH POOR.

Mr. W. L. MABERLY, in moving for the Howe to
resolve into a Committee to consider of an Address to
the Crown upon the employment of the poor in Ireland,
bespoke the favour and indulgence of the tiou.ie. He
disowned any political motive—he had nothing to allege
against the Ministers of the Government. The "74
which Ireland suffered were particular. With the sank
laws, customs, and manners with the Engli-h, there
were moral causes which made them differ ait(Te:hei.
The most prominent cause of these calamities was t„ lit
found in the redundancy of the population—not that .;
was too great for the capabilities of the soil, but it ss.,,
far too gteat for the means of employment. It was n.t
for him to say what was the primary cause of this re-
dundancy. Some ascribed it to the potatoe, though nst
very accurately. He believed that the population wary!.
be redundant if the food were wheat, or anything higher;
though he could readily admit that a population whici:
with potatoes was seven millions, would not have es.
ceeded with wheat above three or four millions. But
from the disproportion of population and employment,
the population became degraded and ba.e—a fit Instr.'.
ment for factious and designing men ; so that what-
ever existed there as a local grievance speedily be.
came a subject for general revolt ; and the country
always laboured between starving and insurrection...-.
The only remedy left, then, was to repress the popula-
tion by increasing the eapital, and supplying the means
of employment. To the misgovernment of Ireland,
ustlybe uland to the want of employmuentdfontligithst
population,
j the evils under which it lithoze
attri-
buted. The Honourable Member then proceeded to
quote, in support of this as,errion, the evidence gives
before a Committee of that House, by the Honourable
Nlember for Mayo (Mr. Brown), and by Mr. Owen;
the latter of whom stated, not only that there was no
disturbance where the people were employed, but
also, that in those places where disturbances prevailed,
'they bad ceased upon employment being furnished.
The Honourable Member alluded also to the evidence
of Mr. Griffiths, in a Repot t made to the Irish Govern-
ment, w ho stated the " improvement which bath been
effected in the circumstances of certain labourers, wh
had been furnished with sufficient tools, Cie value of
they had repaid by instalments, from being able
to earn only from 4d. to 6.1. a day, they now earned
from 10d. to Is. Was it not then, lie asked, the duty
r.f GovernMent to interfere, and by the means of cer-
tain encouragement, to induce manufacture's to embai
their capitals in Ireland, who, without some such is-
ducement, would never do so ? It might be objected
to him that this measure was opposite to all the
rules of political economy ; but it was highly illo-
gical to draw such an inference from a science, sl e
rules of which were subject to constant exceptions.—.
It would rather become the House to look at the existing
state of Ireland, and to draw their deductions how
facts, the truth of which could not be gainsaid. The
two branches of commerce in which the people of Le-
land might be most profitably employed were— first,
the fisheries ; and secondly, the cultivation of fl ix. The
southern and western coasts of Ireland pos,essed almost
inexhaustible hanks of fish ; but although, from those
coats being open to the Mcditeranean, great advantage;
were presented to them in sending their produce ts
Catholic countries, where the consumption of fish was
very large, they were unable to avail themselves of
those advantages, from their want of capital, and their
ignorance of the principles of commerce. He (Mr.
Maberly) had taken pains to procure returns 'dative
to the growth of flax from Holland, Flanders, and
Russia ; and he had uniformly found, upon comparing
them with those furnished by the South of Ireland, ilia:
the balance was considerably in favour of the latter.
The flax could be grown much cheaper there than else-
where—the duty was so small, that it was almost a
non-existing quantity ; and the Manufacturers were able
to consume all the material they produced. He might
be asked, after this statement, how it was that Ireland
did not avail herself of these advantages ? His reply
was, that she could nut do so, as well for want of the
necessary skill as for want of capital. It was to supply
these wants that he was about to propose the advance
on the part of the Government of so much capital as
would excite the dormant faculties of those who were
most interested in the welfare of Ireland, and would en-
' courage others to venture their property,and to apply that
skill so necessary to the success of the manufacturers.
Embarrassed as the landed Gentlemen of Ireland were
known to be, it was very probable that some of them
would endeavour to make use of this advance for the
purpose of redeeming their mortgages, and prefer pay-
ing a small interest to the Government, than the large
interest with which their incumbrances were already
charged. It was therefore his intention, as well to pre-
vent this evil, as to avoid that other of the political in-
fluence which might be exercised by means of such ad-
vances, to propose that inspectors should be appointed,
and that penalties should be provided for all misappli-
cations of the fund. He alluded to the benefit which
had already been derived from the charitable loans
which the Government had made in Ireland, and which
had proved powerful incentives to good conduct. It
was impossible to mention a more striking instance of
the good which might be hoped to result from the ex-
tension of manufacture in Ireland than this that
wherever the linen manufactures had been established,
quiet and moral habits seemed also to have taken root,
and all the advantages by which industry, was usually
accompanied had been experienced by the people of the
neighbourhood. He concluded by moving—
" That the House do now resolve itself into a Committee to con-
sider of the propriety of presenting an bumble addreu to his Ma-
jesty, praying that he will be pleased to grant the advance of a sum
not exceeding one million, to be distributed by way of loin, for d..
I employment of the poor and the encouragement of manufactures in
the provinces of Munster and Connaught, and that Commissioners
be appointed to carry those objects into effect."
On the question being put,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER bore
testimony to the manner in which the Hon. Member
had brought this motion before the House, as well as
to the lublic spirit which had actuated him. No one
who knew anything of the situation of Ireland could
refuse to admit, that although its climate was most
happy, its soil exceedingly tertile, and its people vigor-
ous and spirited, yet, that with all these outward
lualities, !rich should contribute to its prosperity,
.here were certain internal circumstances in its consti, n-
.ion that defeated the promise which was held cut.--

There was no object to which the attention of Parlia
went bad been more earnestly directed than the amelio-
radon of the condition of Ireland; and the utmost
readiness would, he was sure, be evinced to comply
with any measure that should be likely to accomplish it.
Partaking, as he di,l, of this feeling, it was with great
regret that he could not adopt the suggestions of the
Hon. Gentleman's proposition. It was true that Parlia-
went had on many occasions called on the public to ad-
vance money for purposes of local improvement. Two
instances of this had occurred in Leland. One where
a sum had been placed at the disposal of the Lord
Lieutenant, to be advanced without any view of repay-
went; the other where it was expected that the advances
would be returned. The House would agree, with re-
gard to the first of these, that however desirable it might
be to afford relief in times of particular pressure, yet
that such eleemosynary bounty could be justified by
nothing but cases of overruling necessity, which set all
principle at defiance. He did not apprehend that the
Hon. Gentleman proposed any loan should be made
without a prospect of repayment ; but he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer), although he had often been a
party to such loans as that now proposed, had always
doubted the policy of them, and particularly with re-
gard to Ireland. His doubts arose from the anxiety he
felt that Ireland should be permanently benefitted, and
that nothing should be done which, although it might
afford temporary advantage, would be succeeded by
disappointment. Ile feared that if grants of this sort
were lavished from the public purse, they would,
instead of inducing Irish Gentlemen to trust to their
own resources and exertions for roc-in g the energies
of the country, and relieving its inhabitants, en-
courage the belief that Government would, on every
occasion, keep their heads above water. Till: fatal
error appeared inseparable ham the project. It was
impostible always to go on ; and when the sys.
tern slvarld terminate, the objects of this bounty of
Lament world be found incapable of making an exer-
tion for their own good. With regard to the practical
part of the Honourable Gentleman's plan, he (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) did not exactly understand in
what way it was proposed to apply it to the fisheries.
He (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) was not prepared
to say that the object of setting up the fisheries only
(not maintaining them) was objectionable ; but for this
purpose the sum proposed seas cleaily too large. A sum
450001. or 6000 V. was annually expended by the Lord
Lieutemint in building smail piers, and lorry Mg rat bout s,
at fishing stations. These were %vox ks which the indivi-
duals could not do for themselves, and to which, there-
fore, the public money was vet y reasonably applied.—
The objection floss- so common sr ith teipect to It ciami,
c f want of security, was the cause which prevented ca•
pital from flowing in the same channels as in Engiand.
But as even in parts where this objection did not apply,
corn was grown in reference toll ix, the inference from
this must necessarily be, that flax conld net be pro.
duced as so cheap a rate, or at so great a pi alit, as other
zsticulttiral produce. At least it must be adniitted that
it was debit able Parliament should not interfere in lend-
ing money unless it was absolutely necessary ; and if the
co:st!ary should be insisted on, he should feel it his duty
to ,Tinse the preposition. He had not thought it ne-
cei;a:y to press his objections at length, nor with any
arnah. Parliament had already applied itself ear-
res!ly to ti:e relief ollreland by the reduction of taxation,
and by removing restrictions which affected commerce.
The ci i‘racter ro these measures was, that they could
c'o no Intim, while the inevitable inference of practical
experience was, that they would do great ultimate good.
?`:o circumstances :tad been stated to prove to the House
that the measure which was now proposed possessed
either the one or the other of these qualities; its neces-
sity was quite as doubtful. The 'chef which it would
afford must be temporary and delusive, and the I foii.e
would probably be called upon two or three }ears
hence to persist in the system they would have sanc-
tioned, and which every year it would be one mo:e
difficult to abandon. U.:der this view of the case, he
thought it much mo:e advisable that the f 1 ruse shoald
decline to enter upon it, and he therefore concluded by
moving the previous question.
Mr. MABEItLY, in explanation said, that it was his
intention that the money (should ParVament concur
with his motion) should be advanced, not merely to one
branch of manufactnre, hut to ever} branch which
might apply for it, giving good security. Ile would
also give it to the encouragement of the fishery.
Lord ALTHORP did not think the general ob. •ceon

to grants of this description applied io that content
plated by the present motion. At present capital was
• actually forced out of Ireland. lc was sent to Mexico,
and to all parts of the n mid, except to that country.—
He thought every exertion ought to be made to invite
capital to Ireland. To do so, he would almost say that
he would consent to take off all taxes on direct con-
sumj:tinn. If this were done, many of the difficulties
to a residence there would be removed, and many per-
sons who preferred foreign countries for a residence
from motives of economy, might then be induced to
give the preference to Ireland. Although he did not
entirely concur in all that had been stated by the Hon.
Mover, he approved of the plan, and did not think it
would be impracticable to carry it into execution. Ile
should therefore support the Motion.
Mr. JOHN smiTki thought the argument of the
Chancellor of the FccbcTe:r most extraordinary. This
was the first time he had ever heard granting public
loans for national purposes stigmatised as prejudicial to
a country. He was himself a Conrmis.ioner, under an
Act of Parliament, for lending money to the Pub-
lic for making roads, building bridge,, or some Such
purpose, and he spoke from experience when he
said that such a practice vas pi oduc:ive of the be
effects. Why then was Ireland, so much depressed as
she was, to be denied the benefit of such a system ?
l'he Right Honour:lWe Gentleman, he knew, had the
interest of Ireland at heart. lie must say, however,
that the London Committee for the relief of the Irish
had not met with that support from The I. ish Mern.per s
which they had a right to expect. NeJer.hcless, much
.rend had been done. There could not be a mere apt
listance of the effect of maldng su.all loans to the Peo-
ple than that which the fisheries afforded. With the
Niltry sum of 1001. a Reverend Gentleman in Irelerd
had fitted out upwards of forty fishing boats, which
had led to the successful employment of J-i 3 indivi-
remaining in hand. 110
rot change oar system of
land, there were events
lr would pull down this
and bring destruction
amelioration winch were
:ar).
I, that after what had
)jest, it would r,ot be
such time in his remarks.

The Honourable Memlser (Mr. J. Smith) had observed,
that his Right Honourable Friend (the Chancellor of
the Exchequer) had not been as eloquent on this occa-
sion as on others; and he had attributed it to the mode
of argument he had adopted. His Right Honourable
Friend had expressly stated his readiness to concur in
any measure which might be suggested favourable to
the interests of Ireland, but he did not think that the
present was one of that description. For his (Mr. Gaud-
burn's) own part, he would say, that it would give him
the greatest satisfaction to be able to state on his return
to that country, that he had procured from Parliament,
or assisted in procuring, a grant of a million of money
to be applied for the encouragement of Irish industry,
and he would most cordially concur in the proposition,
if he thought it was likely to be attended with such be-
neficial results as had been stated. It was but justice
to the present Lord Lieutenant of I; eland to state, that
he was disposed to carry such a measure into effect, and'
that he had tried it as far as it was practicable ; but he
was obliged to discontinue it, when it was ascertained
that it was not attended with the results which bad been
anticipated, or with any good result for the genet al ad-
vantage of the country. The Honourable Member
(Mr. J. Smith) bad stated, that Acts had passed fir
granting sums of money, by way of loan, for carrying
on particular works in England ; but if the Honourable
Member had read a little farther into the Acts of Par-

liament, he would have found, that at the ti me 1,000,000/.
had been granted for such purposes in this country, the
sum of 500,0001. had been advanced for a similar pur-
pose in Ireland. This was not imcnded as a permanent
system of Government, but as a temporary expedient to
meet particular ernes gencies. Indeed, for a certain pe-
riod, scarcely a Session passed in which particular-sum,
had not been so applied. It was also enacted, as an el:-
couragement for the application of capital to works in
Ireland, that any person who should embark his cal .i:4l
in public works in that country, should be allowed the
interest on that capital for a certain number of years.
It. might now be worth while to iAquii e hat had becii

the result of those advance? One grant had beco ap-
plied as advances for the encouragement of trade aad
manufactures. After some time a Commission was
pointed to inquire into the effect of those advances. The
Commission consisted of men above all suspicion—meo I
of the highest character for integrity and impartiality—
men of different religions, but of no political parties: 13)
these it was represented to Goveinment, that they con-
sidered, under all the circumstances, the advances or
loans to be working rather an injury than a benefit to 1
the country—that those to whom the loans had been ad- I
vanced, and who were most anxious in seeking for them, I
eie men, who for the most part, without any capital of
;heir own, were anxious to compete with those who
worked their own capital ; and that the low rate of in-
terest at which the loans were obtained enabled them to
Jo this the more easily. Under those circumstances, the
Lord Lieutenant determined to withdraw su:h ad-
vaaces, and to confine them in I tante to public works
only. He feared that a similar fate would attend the
loans which might be advanced under the motion of the
11011°1,1-able Member, should the House agree to it. He
would not go to the details of the Honourable Member's
motion, for it was rather to the principle that he object-
ed ; but one objection would be, that Government must
resort to means of severity to recover those loans if any
difficulty occurred : it would have the preference of all
other cm editors, and recover by the process of extents.
This would cause the other creditors to withdraw the
money due to them, by every possible means ; and the
consequence must be, that Government must either forego
the debts which might be due to them, or by pro-
ceeding for them produce a greater inconvenience. It
was tine, that a part of the money already granted by
Parliament was still in the hands of the Irish Govern-
ment ; and any addition to it at present would be only
holding out hopes which it might not be possible to
r:alize. %%Idiom going to the other points of the Honour-
able Member's speed', he would state, that the ground
on which he concurred with his Right Honourable
Friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) in opposing
the motion, was the inexpediency of advancing funds
to the people, which could not be permanently kept up,
and which, as lie had observed, would be giving rise to
hopes which could not be realized. There were, he
would admit, occasions when, the people not having a
sufficient supply of food, it might be necessary to ad-1
vance a sum of the public money for their relief; hut it
was, he thought, inexpedient to call on Parliasoent for
an advance of money when some such pressing neces-
sity did not exist. We should reserve the demands on the
public money until time of need ; and not give the peo-
ple the habit of looking to a giant of public money on
every emergency.
After a few words in explanation from Mr. J. SMITH
and Mr. GOULBURN,
Mr. SPRING RICE expressed his surprise at the

Proclamation which had just been made by the Irish
Government in anticipation of the starvation of the
people of Ireland. He never heard a more curious ar-

. _
gument against granting the meansof relief. The means
of improving the country and its resources, and placing
the people out of the reach of sudden calamity, were
demanded of Parliament ; and the answer of the Right
Hon. Secretary opposite (Mr. Goulburn) was—wait till
the people are in a state of actual starvation, and then
give them eleemosynary aid—( Hear, hear, hear). It
was the object of himself and friends to prevent the
people from falling into this state. The only ground
for a refusal which the House could adopt was that of
di mess in England ; but this was nototiously untrue.
1
11,1' appeared to be agreed upon the principle, but
diffeied in the details. The greatest benetit had been
derivet.: even from the introduction and loan of flax seed
tin Inland. A friend of his, Mr. Strickland, had laid
out 1,0001. in the purchase and importation of flax-
seed, which he lent to the grower to be repaid at the
harvest time. He sold fur tive shillings what bef)re
could not be got under fifteen. The profit to the indi-
viduals arising from this 1,0001. was no less than 21,000/.
and he had the satisfaction to say that Mr. Strickland
frid receive:: Loe whole of the 1,0001. with the excep-
tion c 40/. which he could have upon demand. The
Hon. Member also referred to a similar instance of ad-
vantage arising from a small capital advanced for the
(Telling of a new turnpike road. lit either of the cases,
if the answer had been made which was now made by
the Right Hon. Gentleman opposite, these happy re-
sults would have been lost.
Mr. GOULBURN complained of the manner in
which he had been misrepresented. He never had used
any such argument a 3 that the people of Ireland ought
not to be relieved until in a state of starvation. Neither
did he entertain the opinions represented of him on the
subject of granting loans for national purposes. He did
not approve of the application, in the present instance,
of such a loan in the mode proposed. But he was
•

'himself a party to the yearly advance of such loans'
for the making of roads, or any national monuments
of that description. •
l‘re prieen rsSt. eit t 1 ICE said he was very sorry if he had miq-
anything which had fallen from the Right
Hon. Gentleman. Nothing was farther fi °in l.is in-
tention,
and no one was more disposed than he was to
give credit to the Right Hon. Gentleman In ser-
vices in Ireland.
Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that as he had been
absent from the House during the time tliat his Right
Honourable Friend had spoken, he could not tell whe-
ther the Honom•ahle Member for Limerick (M r.S. Rice;
had misrepresented what had previously fallen from hi,
Right Honourable Friend : but from all he kne.v of his
Right Honourable Friend's opinions in general, as well
as upon the particular subject under di .cussi:in, he was
inclined to believe, that what hz. had stated had not been
correctly understood by the Honour tble Member f
Limerick, and he was happy to find that his opinion had
been confirmed by the explanation which Irld be ,m
given by his Right Ilonomruble Friend. The I lourutr-
able Member for Limerick had argued as if the point
at issue wele, whether Parliament should, on any occa-
sion short of an exigency absolutely amounting to v...tr.t,
afford any pecuniary assi •tance to ',eland ; but a:: ht.
(1" Canning) understood the inestion, it Was not 01
that general nature, but only whether, on the pre.,enr
occasion, and in the particular way piopo,ed, such as-
sistance should he granted ?—(lkar.) He would
. .

that nn proposition which had been made for the r.•lief
of Ireland deserved to be entertained with more lAvout

than that which had been pr.tposed by the Ilini.ntrable
Member for Northanwtont it the I-lottst.', welr to con-
sider only the manner in which it ha J been intioduced
to the notice of the I-1,111,e. Nothing could he better
than the Holton:able Mover's addl.! s, both in the con-
ception and the. etecution —(llear). He was suet% tiont

the temper which the llonottrahle Member h di,
played, that he would :eadily admit that it was poi•ihle
for an individual to differ with hint in regat d to the appli-
cat;oa of the principles w Lich he ha.l propounded, t+ith-
out at all the principles themselves. The
/Immutable Member had stated the case fairly, and, in-
deed, rather against himself, when he said, that unless
he could shew that time existed a crisis in which as-
sistance ought to be afforded, and that his mode of A-
lm ding that assistance was the most available, his pro-
position must fall to the ground. In his opinion, the
scheme proposed by the Honourable Member would
be attended by inconveniences which would more
than counterbalance the advantages which could be
hoped from it. On what had the Honourable Member
for Limerick rested his support of the proposition? On
the example of the barren district being by an advance of
public money converted into a flourishing neighbour-
hood. Undoubtedly, in the particular instance, this
was a blessing; but the Honourable Member was wrong
in deducing from that circumstance the general rule,
that it would be wise to expend the public money in en-
deavoni ing to produce a similar change in every barren
spot in Ireland. The same Honourable Member had
also directed the attention of the House to an inst ince
of the successful cultivation of flax. That result had
been produced by the landlord lending his tenants
money to enable them to cultivate their land; and the
argument of the Honourable Member was, that because
the experiment had been successful, ergo it would be
advantageous for Government to advance loans to the
landed gentlemen of Leland. He did not mean to deny
that advantage might not result from Government
giving its aid to public works; but it was quite a dif-
ferent thing for Government to come forward as a
lender, and particularly as a lender to th -! landed in-

terest of Ireland. He thought that the scheme of len:I-
-ing money by Government would be in the highest de-
gree mischievous. He entertained this opinion the mote
strongly, perhaps, because it was one to which he had
been converted; for, according to the old adage, con-
verts always maintained their new opinions with greater
heat than those which they abandoned. A few years
ago he had entertained an idea, that the distress& s of
the landed interest of England might be relieved by
making Government advance them money at a lower

rate ofinterest than that w Bich was usually paid, in
order to enable them to pay off the mortgages and
other incumbaances of their estates. lie had set out in
his schelne with the most sanguine expectation of arriv-
ing at a satisfactory conclusion, and it was with the
greatest unwillingness that he stopped with the convic-
tion that his plan was impracticable, and that if it were
practicable it would be mischievous. Ile presumed
that the Crown would technically stand in the place of

lender ; and then he would ask whether the Crown had
the same privileges in Ireland, when Et and i g in the
character of a creditor, that it possessed in England ?
If, as he presumed, it did, could any man conceive that
the landed gentlemen of Ireland could stand in a more
inconvenient situation than as debtors of the Clown?
It was observed in the Spectator, or some other popular
work of that nature, that nothing was so diff.Tent as
the commencement of a loan, and the end of it—(d
laugh). Nothing could be so amiable as a lender; but
nothing was so odious as a creditor. The borrower at
first addressed the lender cap in hand ; but when he
changed the mild name of lender to that of creditor, he
was unwilling to lo,k him in the face —(A laugh). So
it would be if the Crown were to lend money. After a
certain time it must apply for payment. What then
would take place? The Crown, it was well known,
had the preference over all other creditors, and would
take first. Nothing could be conceived more incon-
venient than such a eh cumstance, when it was cart ied

to any considerable extent— ( Hear, hear). To make
the landed gentlemen of Ireland debtors of the Crown,
would cause them inconvenience, and loss, and perhaps
ruin. It was these comiderations which had induced
him to abandon a similar scheme which he had once
entertained with regard to England—Wear, hear!) He
' was convinced that such a plan could not be cart ie,l
into effect in Ireland without producing inconveniencirn
infinitely greater than those which it was intended to
remove. With respect to one of the other topics which
had been touched upon—namely, the affording pecu-
niary assistance in aiJ of public woi ks—that course of
proceeding had already received the sanction of
ment. To a specific proposition of that nature lie
would not be indisposed to give his favourable atten-
tion; but he was compelled to vote against the motion
which had been submitted to the House upon the pre-
sent occasion—(f:ear).
Mr. NI ABEItLY contended that thete would be no-
thing improper in Government advancing loans to the
landed Gentiemen of Ireland. He was sure that if Par-
liament did not sreedily afford relief to that country, a
general system of rebellion would ensue. Ile had re-
ceived from his agent in Ireland the most distressing
accounts of the state of the pool er classes. There were
hundreds of thousands of people there able and willing

to-work, who had not been able for a lonktime to earn
more than two-pence a-day. Parliament would not he
acting justly if, whilst it was voting money for the
building of palaces and churches, it v6thlield its assist-
ance from lieland—(fleat, hear).
Colonel TR ENCEI praised the conduct of lr. ic k-
hod, who had to by tlif, flornitaSle Mem-

bet for Unit,' irk tMr. S. Rice). and a ho was merely an
agera ea.;:loyed by st.”le attcrnies to su
trill the ritii.ed estate ni a NoMema The unfot tunate
situation of Ileland was to Ile-cl.rt fly attrihtvesi to the
distresses f the residei•t,, and thereft)re he tltOug!tt that
loan to them would he attended witlt hew_ficixl ri?tslts.
Mr. A BER.CROMBY ve.l, tliat it WAS a most
extt aordinat y en insta!tce that out of all the t edund tr.t

capital of this country no put of it shoold go to Ire-
land, where there were seven millions of fellow-sWje,ts
suffering from
,the want of cat.ital. SornethUg very
strange there cel tainly must he in such a state of things.
But Nlhattver that might he, here was a motion to in-
di.ce Gr,vernmera to do that wh;ch individuals would
not do, but whit h it was inc.st desirabe -should be done.
A long >eties of misgovernment, he feared, was the
eau' e of the anomaly which he had noticed; and if
some deniive. Act) were not taken, the most fearful re-
, ,u:ts mto,t be anticipated. Ilowever, notwithstanding
' t!.e opinioits he entertained of the state of Ireland, he
could not as-tent to the motion of his II tnourable Friend.

If is ()hie( t ion was not to the principle of his proposition,
hut its applicaticat. Ilk objectioo was to the amount
if.the money, wl ich was such that no security could be
offer eel for it except the land, and from that he saw the
gtea;est mischief. In that respect he entirely accorded
with die Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Secretary
Canning), and was only surprised that a pers ot of his
acuteness should es er have entertained such a scheme
for a moment. He should however be glad to see small
stuns distributed in the way in which Mr. Strickland
had so beneficially employed capital.
Mr. MONCIC declared his opinion to be against the
Motion. A great deal was said about giving employ-
meta to Leland, but lie knew no place to which so
much employment had been given for the last thirty
years. During that time upwards of a million of acres
had been brought into cultivation. The evil of Ireland
was in the habits of her population.. They did no more
to the eaith than what was sufficient to produce barely
enough to subsist upon. They built their own huts,
and gave no employment to any trade; acid their gar-
ments were of the same sparing nature. The super&
cies of Ireland and .Scotland, he believed, was much
about the same, yet how different wete the amounts of
their public bin diens ? Ile propose an Absentee
Tax in the shape of Is. in the pound on the whole laud
of II elaud. If sonic alteration like that he had suggested
was made, much good might be done. If it did not
produce any seal advantage it would at least open
the way for improvement.
Mr. nurciiiNsoN supported the motion, the ob-
ject of which was to employ the peasantry of Ireland;
and was there any man who heard him who would for
a moment contend, that in the South and West of Ire-
land employment was not wanted? He had often urged
the necesssity there was that the system in Ireland should
be changed—that something should be done for her;
and he cautioned Parliament to beware how they sepa-
rated until they had forced from his Majesty's Govern-
, ment a declaration of their intentions toward s that part of
the Empire. The Irish nation had consented to ruin and
disgrace in consenting to the Union. That consent had
been obtained by the promises of Mr. Pitt and his
friends; and he now called on those who, on all occa-
sions, were anxious to call themselves Mr. Pat's disci-
ples, to perform his promises. His Honourable Friend
who brought forward this motion had proposed, as one
of the means of relief to Ireland, to impede the propa-
gation cf our species in that country. He knew not
what the secret was by which his Honourable Friend
thought he should be able to effect this great work, but
he believed it would be the most arduous ta,k he had
ever undertaken—(A laugh.)—'lhe put suing this great
law of nature might be a fault ; but it was one to
which his countrymen were particularly addicted, and
he was inclined to think it was one of which they would
never be cured—(Laughter.)—lle should give the mo-
tion his warmest support.
Alderman BRIDGES thought, whilst we were
raising Loans for every part of the world, we ought not
to overlook the miseries and wants of our fellow-sub-
jects in Leland. Ile had no doubt, if a Loan for Ireland
was proposed, it would soon be filled.
Sir JOHN NE \\ PORT supported the motion. He
considered it worth while to try this plan, even if it
should only produce a temporary tranquillity in Ireland.
That part of the Ealpiic: was sow suffering in conse-
quence of the enoneous system which had been adopted
towards her of endeavoring to raise her taxes to the
same scale as those of England. Ireland was unequal
to bear the bur then, and the attempt had at length been
given up upon a conviction that the thing was abso-
lutely impossible; and, when it was considered how
many millions were annually drawn Born that country,
and spent by the absentees in this country, such an
attempt was the height of injustice.
Mr. Secretary PEEL thought Parliament should rest
until they had received a further Report from the Com-
mission, which was now pursuing its labour in Ireland
with so much benefit to that country.
Mr. MA BERM' shortly replied, and the gallery was cleared for
a divi,inn.—For the previous Question, b 5 —For the Motion, 33.
Majority against the Altman, 51.
Mr. KEMP moved for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
establi 4h a Metropolitan Register of Alarrines and Burials in
England.
Sir G. HILL moved for and obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
authorize the transfer of certain Stock in Ireland.,.
Sur J. NEWPORT moved for a return of the amount of several
sums of money granted atid teceHed for the building and keeping
up the Church of St. George, in the Cout.ty of Dublin, since the
year 1800 to the present year, distinguishing the receipt and ezpen-
' diture of each year.—Agreed to.
Sir J. NEWPORT gave notice, that he would, on Thursday
move for certain returns relative to the poralatitm of Ireland.
The British Museum Bill was read a third time. and passed.
Mr. KEN N IZ.DY moved the Order ut the Day for bringing up
the Report of the Scotch Jury Bill.
The LORD ADVOCATE Cued several objections to the DP..
Mr. KENNEDY defended the Biii.
Sir O. CLERK supported the ohjeeziens of the Lord Advocate.
Mr. A BERCROM BY complaiued of the course adopted in
opposing this Bill; why had nut these oh:lee:Mesh...en made in the
Committee ?
Alnr some further observatiatis from Lorl IitsNING and others,
the Itei.ort WaS•reeriVcd.
The other Orders were divosed of, and the House adjourned at
Two o'Clock.

We understand MI. PAYNF, KNIGIIT has bequeathed
his matchless collection of medahi, drawings, and
bronzes, worth at lcast 30,00 a to the British Museum.
They include A single volume of drawings by the inimi-
tahle CLAUDE, which tie recollect Mr. KNIGHT pur-
chased tOr 1.60.1. from a private individual, who, a
short tittle previously, had given rd. for the same.

1

1

li

1

duals, whilst there was yet 206.
uas convinced that if we did noi
Government with regard to Irel
in the prospect of Europe
mighty etnpire front her height,
upon all tho►e measures of an
now only in their infancy—(Ha
Mr. CiOULIICRN observed,
been already stated on this subj
necessary for him to take up mu
•

1.