Star.
London, England, 1831-07-01 00:00:00

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late and tlie pr seat mirietets. (A laugh.) Ile would not go
seen elseals, b-t mild content himself with node:og one or
two eeneral fact*. The amount of the salaries of the public
servants in 1797, was 1,300,0001; in 1815, the amount was
3.200,0001. There had been some reductions made by the mi-
. ristere. but they were very few, and by no means equal to
the wants of the people, and what his censtltuents deemed,
as he learned from the instructions he had received from
them, the pubic bad a right to expect.—(Hear, hear.) lie
then read Sir James Graham's resolution of February, 1030.
It referred to the large augmentations that had taken place
in salaries on ut:count of the reduced value of money ; it set
forth that such cause bad ceased to exist, and urged the jus-
t:ce of reduction. Therefore ought he rot to calculate on
the right honourable baronet's suppor. He then next
read the Secretary to the Treasury's resolution, palliating
the original revolution, and which was adopted; but its
sentiment was in reality the same. On these grounds he.
expected the support of both parties. (Hear and a
laugh.) He had alluded to two facts as to the amounts of
the salaries in 1797 and in 1915; he would mention Bonne
father particulars connected with those facts, to slaw the
specie' of salaries that had increased. The amount had in.
cren•cd two-thirds, from 1,300,0001. in 1797, the amount
had risen to 3,200.0001. in 1815 ; in 1829, the amount was
2,789,0031. some reduction having taken place. He did not.,
wish to go back to the salaries of 1797, but the large salaries
were susceptible of great reduction. Those were what he
attacked. (Hear. hear.) He would just slaw bow the
high salaries prevailed. There were 1.783 persofts whose
salaries were between 2301. and 1,0001. a year—the average
was 4001. a year. There were 982 persons whose average
salary was 2,0001. a year—many of them held two or three
offices. He was alluding to persons who were not members I
of Parliament. The 1.783 persons who received on en ave-
rage 4001. a year, were the working classea ; while the 982
persons who received, on an average, 2,0001. a year, did
very little work. Some had two or three offices, and what
was worse, they knew nothing of the duties of their offix.
Many of them did nothing. He was bound to call on the
house to afford a remedy ; the necessi ies of the people re.
quire(' it. As they had not power to reduce the debt, relief
in the expenditure ought to be afforded ; he thought there'
ought to be at least a committee of inquiry, to a-certain
whether there could not be 1,000,0001. reduced in the
amount of the salaries. That might be effected. Prices
. were now lower in many instances than they were in 1792.—
in this motion he had consulted no one, neither the present
nor the late administration. He had not even asked for a
seconder; he had brought forward the motion from a sense
of duty. Ile thought if the motion were resisted that a
committee of inquiry ought to be granted Ile concluded
with moving a resolution, declaring that the salaries of pub-
lic offices ought to be reduced to those of 1797—regard
being had to the alteration in the prices of the necessaries
of life.
Mr. HUNT seconded the motion. He was about to'
speak, bot seeing Lord Althorp on his legs he resumed his
rent.
Lord ALTHORP said, he thought the house, if it had
any confidence in the Government, could not concur in this
motion. The Government had commenced the work of very
extensive reductions in the salaries, beginning with those of
the highest offices. They had reduced the salaries of the
Commiesioners of Customs, and had alt: red the constitution
of the Board ; similar reductions were extended to the Ex-
cise departmem ; and they were carrying the like principles
into all the other departments of Government. Ile and those
who thoueht with him, when out of office, had urged the ne-
cessity of these seductions; and now that they were in
office they were endeavouring to carry those principles
of economy and retrenchment into effect—(hear, hear ;)
but at the same time, as the period of 1797 was referred en,
it became him to add, that the reductions must have
reference to the increased duties and responsibility in many
instances when compared with the services paid for in 1797.
If the House thought they were sincere in their endeavours ,
to promote economy and retrenchment—the Treasury mi.'
notes of March, 18:10, giving some proof of the efforts mak-
ing; if the House thnught the Ministers were proceeding as
rapidly as they well could do wi h so important and difficult
a subject, the present motion would not—could not be sanc-
tioned. if adopted, it would show that the House had not
such opinion of the conduct of Ministers; and, if adopted,
it could not be viewed as being other than a censure on the
Ministers.—(Hear, hear.) If sanctioned, in that light he
must view it.—(Hear.) With these feelings on the subject,
he must conclude with moving the " previous question."—
(Hear, hear.)
Mr. HUNT said that he had seconded the motion cheer-
fully—the Hon. Alderman knew he bad a seconder in him,
for he had moved the instruction at the common hall, which
recommended this motion. It was a perfectly just motion.
The hon. aldieman had fairly stated that the prices of pro-
visions were as cheap now as they were in 1797, and that at
a subsequent period, because the prices of provisions had
increased, the salaries were risen. (A laugh.) Well, he
thanked the lion. gentlemen for correcting him; lie under-
stood that he ought to hare said that " the salaries had been
raised." (A laugh.) And now as the prices of necessaries
were cheaper, that the rate of salaries ought to he reduced
to the same as it was in 1797. lie had done his duty, not-
withstanding the laughter that had been raised against
hint. ( A laugh.) He did not come there to raise a factious
opposition ; but when he mentioned any thing about the
people there was always a great laugh set up : but if the
noble lord opposite mentioned the people he was always
loudly cheered; but he (Mr. H.) did not care for that—he
stood there the representative of the people, and he would ad-
vocate their cause ; but what he meant by the people was not
the people whom the noble lord meant ; the noble lord by
people meant those who paid rents of WI. and who were pro-
vided for in the bill; but the people whom he (Mr. Hunt)
meant were those who did not pay tents of 101. and who
were not provided for by the bill. Ile thought the rea-
sons given by the worthy alderman for his motion were
good, and if they would grant him a committee, that he would
show how a saving might be effected of one million.
He had stated that there were no less than nine hundred
persons on salaries of 2,0001. a-year, and that these were
many who received large salaries who did nothing. The
honourable member then proceeded to censure the honourable
gentlemen seated on the Ministerial benches, who, while they
seemed to advocate Reform and retrenchment, would oppose
such a motion as this when the country was in so distressed
a state. They might attribute the disturbances of last year
to whatever cause they chose ; but these disturbances had
been occasioned entirely by extreme distress. With this
fact before their eyes, he would ask Ministers if they could
refuse to yield a small portion of their Wailes, and
while, at the same time, they came forward to declare,
that they were going to reduce the annul salaries of
those who did the drudgery of the public offices, they could
object to allow the example in themselves? They might
pass the Reform bill, but the country would give them no
credit for it, unless they conferred along with it some sub-
stantial benefit on the people. They had raised the expecta-
tions of the people by the speeches which had been made
about reform, economy and retrenchment, which, no doubt,
had been read with great satisfaction all over the kingdom,
until the people had been worked up to a state of excite-
inent---(hear. hear)—he would repeat it, they had been ex-
cited--and the whole of the Members of that house had
been returned under the influence of that excitement—
(hear, hear)—that the people were labouring under a de.
lusion.—(Hear, hear.) Ile hoped that for thus expres-
sing himself he would not again hear of the cld cuckoo
note, that he was an enemy to reform. (Great laughter.)
He did no; mean to charge Ministers with having deluded
the people, for they had carefully fenced themselves against
any promise of immediate berefit ; hut the out-scouts of
Ministers had deluded the people—the public press had
deluded the people. Unless something were done for the
people, there would be no satisfaction in the country, for
the public press had deceived the whole country. He had
been laughed at because he alluded to his trade, and had
mentioned that he kept servants ; but he was not ashamed
to own that he lived by trade, and he would ask some,
of chow honourable members who had laughed, whether
they had not owed all their honours to their success in
trade ; and whether their coats sat any the worse on their
backs, or their coronets on their heads, that they had
been connected in trade. ( A laugh.) He was not to be put'
down by a laugh. lie could tell them that great distress
existed among tradesmen, and many of them had much
difficulty in obtaining ten shillings of ready money. If
they were asked how they did, they replied that they were
actually living on their stock ; but so much was the delusion
abroad, that they all said trade would resive and business
would become more brisk whenever that the Reform Bill
was passed. This lie knew was the general opinion wherever
he had been. He would relate one instance to show how ge-
neral the delusion was. There was a gentleman in So.
mersetsbire to whom a servant girl offered herself,—(a
laugh)—she offered herself as a waitingsmaid, or some.
thing,—(a laugh)—to his wife. The lady was quite
satisfied with the testimonials of the maid, and offered
to engage her, but as one stipulation the engagement
must be foe a year or half a year at least ; the girl,
refused the place, and declared that she could not think of,
engaging for half a year, because by that time the Reform'

Bill would be passed. (Cries of hear, hear, and laughter.)
He did not know what might be the Intention of the worthy
alderman with his motion, but he (Mr. Hunt) was deter-
mined to divide the House on it if the forms of the House
would permit him. The Maiden had with all their pro.
fessions increased the standing army and the yeomanry ca-
valry. He did not mean to vindicate the conduct of those
who had committed the outrages; but when he considered that
in one district they had been goaded on by distre's and starva-
tion almost to death • he could not forget that they had
not fired a single shot, but had confined themselves to
breaking a few machines, and that Blinkers had been
praising the Yeomanry Cavalry for some cf their acts. He
would appeal to the house more than the Ministers to support
the motion of the worthy alderman. They could never have
a more reformed Parliament than the present, and the people
were now so excited, that if they hail not reform they must
have a revolution. (Hear, hear.) He stood for the people—
he meant those not included in theßeform Bill; and he would
call upon the house to teach ministers, it they would not
team it by themselves. thty must not tamper with the feel-
ings of the ec,untry. He would second the motion ; and he
would remind the hon. members of the wcrds of the worthy

alderman, who had told such members who had constitu-
ents, to consult the feelings of their constituents,
and those who had nu constituents, to consult their own
feelings. He (Mr. Hunt) would do the same thing, and re.
commend the••t all to bear it in mind, if they aver intended
again to get into that house. The hon. member begun to
express himself as if naming a committee formed part of the
motion, but on being put right in that particular, be sat
down, after a few more general expressions in support of the
motion.
Col. SIBTHOR PR said, he was highly delighted to hear
the Hon. 'Member for Preston, who professed himself a Re-
former. expressing sentiments so congenial to the convic-
tion of himself (Col. It.'ibthorpe.) He was perfectly satisfied
that the people had been deluded, and that they never could
have a more reftrated Parliament than the present. The
Gallant Colonel went into a few particulars regarding un-
necessary expenditure, and declared himself a supporter
lof retrenehntert, and of the motion of the worthy Al.
derman.

Mr. HUNT explained.
Mr. HUM E said that he could not suffer the present dis-
cussion to pass without offering a few observations. If the
hon. member for Preston had attended to the paper which
he ( Mr. Hume) held in his hand, and which had been laid
before the house, he could not have said, or at least he could
not have had any right to say, that ministers had not shewn
the example of reducing their own salaries. The hon. mem-
ber here read extracts trom the paper, and recapitulated the
worde of the noble lord (Althorp) when he introduced and
recommended the measure of a committee of inquiry on the
subject. The honourable member for Preston did not wish
to hear again the old cuckoo cry; but he, neverthelest,would
always go on putting himself in fault. (Hear.) The Ho.
nourable nieniber proceeded to read extracts of the different
rates of salaries which had all been reduced, some of them
lower than they had been in 1797 ; he then narrated the
manner in which the committee had been conducted, in which
there had no one acted who held a Government office, and
stated, that after the most minute investigation, the resolu_
tions of the committee had all been confirmed by his Ma.
jesty'a Government, according to the report which had been
upon the table on the 3d of Alarm. They had all shewn the
example. He denied that the people of England had been
deluded ; no species of delusion, he said, could
ever have worked the people up to that degree
of enthusiasm which they manifested. He scouted the
anecdote of the Somerset maid-servant, as • very silly il_
lustration. He said that reform was only the means of
effecting good, as it would lead to a cheaper Govern-
ment ; but they must first have reform, before they could
successfully attempt reduction. He was surprised that the
lion. member for Preston should have said that we could net
ver have a more reformed parliament that the present, when
he knew that in the return of the present parliament there
were upwards of 100 nominees. [Mr. Hunt seemed to die-
avow the expression.] He thought he had used the seed-
went as it had been expressed by the hon. member for Pres-
ton. He thought that no obstruction should be thrown in
the way of ministers at this time. The lion. member for
Preston had not done justice to his Majesty's ministers—
in upbraiding them with not reducing their own salaries ;
for the reductions quoted had actually been carried into
effect ; and the reason why he (Mr. Hume) had mentioned
this so particularly was, that although they had done so,
he would declare that they could not redeem their
pledge, unless they carried the reductions into every
department of the public service, and if they did
so in the same proportion there would be no room for com-
plaint. He considered the present motion as ill.timed and
injudicious, but still he must say, that if the worthy Alder-
man pressed for a division, he (Mr. Hunie) would be bound
to divide with him. (Hear.) lie would enter his protest
against its going forth to the country that nothing would
be done for them by the Reform BilL The army and navy
were the principal causes of the burdens of the country, and
until these were reduced no substantial relief could be
effected, and this he expected would be the first act of a re-
formed Parliament. The Honourable Alderman, in bring.
ing forward this motion, performed his instructions from his
constituents, and he redeemed his pledge, and he hoped no
more would be required.
Mr. HUNT rose and explained amidst cries of " No, no."
31% EWA RT rope to reply to the attack made upon the
bench on which he sat for having laughed ; which lie ex-
'stained by saying that it was not the words that occasioned
him to smile, but it was the singular manner in which the
lion. Member for Preston introduced the people, and his
allusions to his being in trade and keeping servants.
M. O'CONNELL was desirous to notice two or three of
the assertions that had been made by the hon. member for
Preston, betides the flat contradictions to the charge of the
refusal en the part of teinistets to reduce their salaries,which
had been given to the allegation by the hon. member foe
Middlesex. He (Mr. O'Connell) had to object to the line
drawn for reduction by the mo ion, by reverting to the rate
of 1797. It was necessary that the house should see clearly
the situation in a hich they stood. If they reverted to the
rate of 1797, they would tind that they would not effect a
reduction equal to that which ministers had done of their
own accord. (Hear.) And under these circumstances they
were to be told in such terms, that because the house would
not sustain such a measure as the one proposed—that the re-
jection amounted to a refusal to hearken to the distresses of
the country. (Hear, hear.) The honourable member had
asserted the people had all been deluded and deceived;
but he (Mr. O'Connell) could tell him that they were
neither deceived nor deluded, and that he must have known
that they could not be deceived. There was no possibility
now of deriving the people either of England, Ireland,
or Scotland. They had common sense—and they could
distinguish sincerity from professions. (Cheers.) They could
discern b.tween sham interest and their real rights (Hear),
and they knew real reformers from mock reformers. (Cheer.)
The Imo. member, after expressing his satisfaction of the
conduct of Ministers in the case of the reduction, alluded to
their efforts in the cause of reform, and said that in that par-
ticular they were about to erect a temple to the genius of the
i British Constitution.
Mr. SADLER thought that there could be no objection
on the part of ministers to support the mvasure, as it would
only teed to strengthen their own act. He contended that
reduction of &dare a ought to take place, because that reduces
tion of proles on trade and agriculture had been severely
felt ; and he thought that as the measure. merely went to
take the potter of reducing salaries into the bands of the
house, that the ministers, advocating Reform, ought not to
oppose it.
Mr. MA BERLY begged leave to remark that the ques-
tion was not prup:rly brought before the House. He was
astonished that the hon. aderman, who had been a mem-
ber of so many committees, had not known which was the
best way to arrive at a proper conclusion. He bud heard
the honourable member for Preston charge the members
on that side of the House with changing their opinion,
but he (Mr. Bleberly) threw back the imputation with
all the contempt that the charge deserved. He would
ask if they had forfeited a single pledge that they had
given, and he would state, that instead of government having
refused, they had most fully implemented all their engage-
ments. It was on that ground that he bad supported the
present Government, and whenever they swerved from these
principles, humble individual as he was, he would imme-
diately withdraw his support from them. When reduction
of salaries had been proposed, their measures had been op.
posed by the former Government, and even when a report of
a Committee had been laid before the House, they set them-
selves against it, and rejected the recommendation. How
different had been the conduct of the present Government,
who bad themselves suggested and carried the reduction into
practice!
Mr. DAWSON said that he agreed with the Hon. !dau-
ber for Middlesex in saying that the measure was injudi-
cious, but he would not act as he bad declared himself,
notwithstanding conviction to vote for it. He (Mr. Dawson)
would vote . against it. He did not know we the Hon.
Alderman had obtained his information but hs bad made so
strange a statement that no one Gould comprehend him.

He (Mr. Dawson), notwithstanding his experhice in once,
and acquaintance with figures, could not understand the
Abisentan's application of the figures, and it would seem that
** Worthy Alderman had felt that he did not understand
*en himself, for he had very carefully refrained from going
Into details. It appeared, according to returns now on
the table, stating the number of persons, and amount of
salaries in seventy-three offices in the years 1821 and
1829 ; that in 1821, the number of persons employed was
26,243 ; the amount of salaries received 3,694,0001. and
that in 1829, the persons equalled 22,670 ; the salaries
3,099,0001 making a reduction of about 4,000 persons, and
600,0001. a year (hear.) Including the reductions ordered
in the Treasury minutes, the total of persons reduced formed
the unexampled number of 4,050, and the salaries 794,0001.
It could not be mid, with suet, facts before them, that the
preceding government was indifferent to the public distress.
He was satisfied that it had effected every reduction consist.
ent with the efficiency of public service. He must express
his astonishment at the speech of the Hon. Member for iVa-
terford,vrhom lie regreted not to see in his place, he meant
the member for Kerry—it wasalmost impossible to remember
to what county the Hon. Member belonged. He must
say that the attack of that hon. member on the hon. member
for Preston (a laugh) was as indecent as any member could
make on another. His loud approbation of the present Go-
vernment, the manner in which he persecuted it with his
support and adulation. excited, he confessed a suspicion
in his mind that the testimony of the hon. member was
not genuine. (Hear, and murmurs.) He (Mr. Dawson)
did not pretend to be the advocate of the Member for
Preston (Laughter) ; there were not two membets less likely
to agree ; but he must say that for a member to come down
and accuse another of every thing that was nonsensical and
absurd, was a most indecent attack. (Oh ! Oh!) With re-
spect to the reductions of the present Government, with the
exception of twenty thousand pounds, recommended by a
late committee, and another rum of ten thousand pounds,
which, after much discussion, they had given up, the reduc-
tions were null. (Hear, from the Ministerial side.) The
army and navy estimates had been increased. Now, if there
were no reductions in the public burthens, in the estimates,
in the pensions—that great source of declamation for the
Right Hon. Baronet opposite when in opposition—
what ground was then for the lavish praises of the
Member for Middlesex, and those around him, towards
the present Government? (Hear, hear.) Who could
recollect the denunciations of the Right Honourable Baronet
against the sinecures and pensions, and believe that he
now sat down satisfied with a reduction of thirty thousand
pounds a year? After denouncing the pensions as the
source of distress, and by exciting the public mind, over-
thrown the late Government, the Oppositionists found them.
selves, on effecting their entrance intooflice, unable to make re-
ductions. It was then that, to divert public attention, they had
recourse to the Reform Bill. (Heat, and Oh, uh.) No re-
duction, It was now apparent, could be eff, eted in the esti-
mates and the civil list, the national debt could alone be
touched. He did not accuse ministers of such an intention,
but they were giving others the means of doing so. He felt
satisfied that the reduction of the debt, and the ruin of
public credit, would be the effects of a reformed parliament.
—(No, and hear.) Gentlemen opposite might say " No!"
and the mountaineers behind him night cheer him, but the
ruin of funded, colonial, and church property, was approach-
ing, and this would have been effected by the unfounded de-
clamations of honourable gentlemen opposite, who, now
they were in office, found themselves unable to do more than
their predecessors.—(Hear. hear.)
Sir JAMES GRAHAM could not congratulate the
right hon. gentleman in that feeling which made him deem
it impossible that a gentleman could do justice to his po-
litical opponent without some base compromise or secret
understanding. (Great cheering.) He could not have be-
lieved that the right hon. gentleman could not hear the
hon. member for Kerry do simple justice to government, by
a statement of facts, without reverting to • subject so clearly
explained by the Secretary for Ireland, and throwing a
doubt on the assertion, to which the Secretary for Ire-
land had pledged his honour. that between the honourable
member for Kerry and government, neither directly nor
indirectly, was there any compromise whatever. (Hear,
hear.) Certainly, if given to like suspicions, he might
comment on that marvellous connexion--(hear, hear)
—which had arisen so suddenly between the right
Honourable Gentleman and the Honourable Member for
Preston. Certainly politics led to strange coalitions—
(cheers from both sides) - but there was as yet no precedent
for • coalition between one who pretended to be a real
Reformer, and another who was no reformer, and who lost
his office because his leader pronounced against all Re-
form, and declared that " the present system of repre-
sent:don was the most perfect that the heart of man could
conceive."—(Cheers.) The Right Hon. Gentleman had
prided himself much upon what he (Sir J. Graham) had said
when on the other side of the House. He by no means re-
gretted the words he had then used ; he felt confident that
since in office, he had made all his endeavours to act up to them.
He had certainly commented on the salaries of the then minis-
ters, he had more particularly complained of their beingplu.
rallies, holding sinecures together with their high offices,
whilst poor half-pay officers were deprived of their military
allowance on similar occasions. Now, was there one mem-
ber of the present Government, to which such a charge
could apply? With respect to salaries the president of the
mined had been reduced 20 per cent. the Lord Privy Seal
IS per cent. the four Secretaries of State at least 20 per cent.
Me reduction in the Presidentship of the Board of Controul
had been protested against by the opposition ; his own office
bad been reduced 10 per cent; the Deputy ontroullership
of the Navy 25 per cent. (Hear, hear.) The Right Ho.
'mumble gentleman having enumerated other reductions,
proceeded to say that, like the member for Aldbo-
rough. he had always protested against reductions beginning
with the inferior officers. The present Ministers had set
the example by reducing their own salaries. They had then,
and not till then, addressed themselves to the upper
branches. In the Customs, in which he was bound to say,
the late Government, stimulated by the then Opposition,
bad, during the last eighteen months of its administration,
made great reductions, the present Government had reduced
sveral Commissionerships. The Excise was undergoing
an examination. In his own office, to which he alluded
only in erlf-defence, he bad abolished eight situations of
from 8001. to 1,0001. a-year. and from forty to fifty un-
necessary offices. (Hear, hear.) He did not say this was
' all that could be done ; he only asked for time. In the next
sseeion, government would render to that house an account,
which, he had no doubt, would be satisfactory, if parliament
would but give them time. (Hear.) Something had fallen
Amu the right hon. gentleman respecting parliamentary re-
form. He had connected that subject with the destruction
otpublic credit and of our institutions. It was somewhat
singular that those who should be the most sensitive on this
point--namely, the public creditors—entertained a diame-
trically opposite opinion. Public credit, since the introduc-
tion of the Reform Hill, had vastly improved. (No and bear.)
Was the the hon. gentleman who said no ignorant of the fact
tbat the stocks had increased six or seven per cent; that
see of the resolutions, in the City Reform Address, was
moved by one of the greatest fundholders of the country ?
(bear.) The reform measure was necessary for the preser.
widen of internal tranquillity; and. if so, was it not neces-
sary for the preservation of public credit ? When the late
Ministers abandoned office, declaring themselves unable any
longer to guide the helm of the state—(oh ! oh ! and hear.)
What was the state of the country ? The six home coos.
ties of England were almost in open rebellion • the state of
Ireland sou most alarming; our foreign affairs were dies
turbed (a laugh.) Were these facts to be denied ? The
lion. Gentletuar who laughed would be more courteous if
he answered by some argument. He felt confident that It
was in the power of Government to effect great reductions
in the military establishments, which, he agreed with 1110
Hon. Member for Middlesex were the source of great
distress ; but the public tranquillity must be first erected
by the introduction of reform. The success of all measures
of retrenchment was dependant on the success of that great
measure, which Ministers had introduced as a ne
preliminary, by which they were determined to stand cot:7a
and which having effected with the support of dm pas*,
they would be enabled to redeem all their pledges, Ned go
down to posterity (Oh ! oh !) as consistent with tbsk pia.
eiples and the accompliehen of the measure, without which
the Govbrnment of this country could not be safely or Ito-
nourably conducted. (Great cheering.)
Mr. tiOULBURN would not discuss with the Right
Hon. Baronet the opinions of posterity on the question of
the Reform bill, which he considered quite foreign to the
subject. He denied that the late Government had fled front
the helm. Acting on a principle previously adopted in that
house, and entirely consistent with the character and dignity
of Government, when the Commons were opposed to
Ministers on a great question they tendered their resigna-
tion ; and, having last the confidence of that house, asked
to withdraw from the public service. Other governments
might pursue a different course. They might propene
measures disapproved of by the house, and still retain
their offices ; he did not pretend to judge those men, but,
together with the conscientiousness of having done their duty,
the lots Ministers had also the satisfaction of having punned

the course adopted by the most honourable men in the best
times of the constitution. The Right Honourable Baronet
said ministers, on assuming office, had found the country in
difficulties. lie agreed that there were insurrections; but
he asked him whether lie had ever the least doubt as to their
termination, whoever might be the ministets ? (Cheers.)
Whether measures had not already been taken by the late
Government,and whether these disorders had not been finally
put down by the good sense of the country ? With respect
to Ireland, that country still appeared to be in a situation as
disturbed as ever. The great question of the union was WU
in agitation. They were told that grea. reductions were 10
be effected hereafter in our military establishments. When-
ever the state of the country was tranquillized. and admitted
of those reductions, he should be most gratified to see them
in progress. But be trusted that if there was anything in
our internal situation calling for the protection of property, or
in our external relations that demanded our name to lie re-
spected, that ministers would not, to secure the cheers of
those behind him, consent to reductions inconsistent with the
welfare and honour of the nation.—(hear )
Mr. STANLEY said this debate was most extraordinary
for inconsistency between words and acts. The Member for
Middlesex agreed with Ministers that the motion of the
worthy Alderman was inopportune, end yet declared he
would support it. The late Secretary for tire Treasury was
the warm advocate of the Member for Preston, and voted
;realest him. The late Chancellor of the Exchequer, after
attacking his Eight llonourable Friend, for introducing the
Refonn question, which he did only in reply to a formes
speaker, himself proceeded to speak of subjects quite foreign
to the discussion. lie had attacked Ministers for remaining iu
office. Now 31inisters hail pledg d themselves to one great
measure, they had staked their reputation and public character
in its cause ; they would leave no means untried so carry it,
and having done so, they would not retain office one instant
longer than they retained the conlidence of that house.—
There was not one of them who would shrink from office,
however laborious or thankless, so lone as they con-
scientiously believed they could hold it for the benefit of the
country.—{ileac, hear.) The late Ministry shrunk from
office, because they had lost the support of the people.—
(Hear, hear.) They were beaten on the Civil List question.
and the Duke of Wellington admitted then he resigned on
that tmestion rather than encounter the question of Reform.
The 'Right lion. Gentleman and his colleagues had been
beaten mu many former questions, but adiketed to office with
a pertinacity which he did not condemn. The state of Ire-
land was comparatively tranquil when compared with the state
in which it was left by the late ministry. There was no mea.
sure that would tend more to tranquillize Ireland than the wee
sure of Reform which the Hight Hon. Gent. was opposing.
The right hon. gent. appeared to suppose that it was iinpos.
sible for him ( Mr. Stanley) and the bon. member for Kerry.
to act in support of any measure without a compromise.—
The hon. member for Ktrry had acquitted hint of any com-
promise, and lie thunked him fot it ; but he should think
himself disgraced if he allowed any political feelings to pre-
vent his cordially cooperating with the hon. member for
Kerry when lie found him exerting his great talents in sup-
port of the Constitution. He doubted whether the iron. a.
derman would put his motion to the test of a division, but
if he should, he (Mr. Stanley) never went to a division with
a clearer consience, or more confident of being supported by
public opinion. (Hear. hear.)
Mr. GILLON said the late Secretary of the Treasury
took great credit for their retrenchments ; but the public
well knew they owed reductions which the late government
were compelled to make to the unceasing, ever-consistent,
and patriotic member for Middlesex. (Hear, hear, hear.)
Already a great improvement had taken place in the condi.
don of the labouring population of Scotland, which he at-
tributed to the great credit government had acquired with
the country. (Hear, hear.) The unnatural combination
that had taken place against Ministers bad for its object to
perpetuate the plunder of the people. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. Alderman WOOD replied, and said he should divide
the House, as he thought every member returned by the
people_ mutt feel, that he was pledged to economy and
Reform. _ _

The House divided.
For the motion ... ... .. .. ... IS
Against it .. ... ... .. .. .. 216

Majority against the motion ... 203
Mr. CAMPBELL rose ter leave to bring in a bill to
establish a general registry of title deeds, and other docu-
ments affecting real property, in England and Wales.
Lord MORPETH said, as his Learned Friend was
willing to exempt the county of York, which had already a
registry of its own, frotn its operation, he should not oppose
the bill.
Mr. SCHONS WAR hoped the town of Hull would also
be exempted from the operation of the bill.
Mr. R. H. GURNEY said he should oppose the bill,
which ought not to be speed to by the House without an
examination of persona most competent to give them infor-
mation on the subject.
Mr. STRICKLAND said, the registry in Yorkshire had
given a certain degree of satisfaction for upwards of a hun-
dred years; and whatever defects it had might be completely
remedied. Reformer as he was, he could not see the wisdom
of overturning old institutions that were effective and satis-
factory.
Mr. LYTTLETON said he had endeavoured to ascertain
the opinion of landed proprietors on the bill, and found they
had not come to any conclusion on the subject. He thought
the bill might be carried to a second reading and committee
in the present session, and then allowed to stand over till
another session.
Mr. BLAMIRE said the noptehension of the bill had
spread dismay through Cumberland. and he hoped the hon.
gentleman would either give up the bill, or exempt the
sisethern counties from its operation.
Mr. SPENCE was of opinion that the bill should pass,
with the exception as far as regards the county of York.
Mr. O'CONNELL spoke to the beneficial effects resulting
from the registry system in Ireland.
Mr. FERGUSON, in a few words, supported the motion.
The greatest possible security had been given to the landed
property in Scotland, by the system of registry acted upon n
that country.
Mr. LEFROY was convinced of the expediency of adopt-
ing a registry in England.
Mr. CAMPBELL in reply observed, that the opponents
to the bill were, as a friend of his had exprrssed it. giving
to the solicitors and attorneys of England and Wales a
vested right to three-fourths of the landed property of the
country. (A laugh.)
Leave was given to bring in the bill.
Mr. CAMPBELL then obtained leave to bring in bills
relating to the law of inheritance, dower, and courtesy.
OUTRAGE IX NEWTOWERARRY.
Mr. LAMBERT rose and moved for a copy of the cow
mission and evidence in relation to the late disturbances
Newtownbarry, in Ireland. In doing so the Hon. Gentle..
man entered into a statement of the circumstances attending
the outrage, as has already been published ; and took sees.
sion to observe that, though no friend to a repeal of the
legislative union between this country and Ireland, still if
some salutary step were not immediately adopted on behalf
of that country, the demands for the repeal of the union
would be so powerful, that all the force of police and yeo-
manry would not be able to overcome.
Col. CHICHESTER, in seconding the motion, corrobo-
rated the statements of the hon. gentleman who brought for-
ward the motion.
Mr. STANLEY said he could assure the House that no
man was more anxious than he was to throw every light
upon the unfortunate circumstances alluded to by the hon.
gentleman who had brought forward the question. It
would be the most earnest endeavour of his Majesty's Go-
verment to act in the fairest and most impartial man-
ner, in regard to the lamentable disturbances which were
the subject of the present tuotiou ; (hear,) but during the
investigation that was going on he Shear,)
not feel himself at
liberty to comply with the motion before the House ; the
ease will very shortly come before the Assizes, and the de-
gree of moderation or intemperance exhibited by the magis-
trateson the occasion would be fully Investigated. Under
these circumstances, he trusted the boo. gentleman would
not force him (Mr. Stanley) to oppose his motion, but
rather that he would see the propriety of withdrawing it.
(Hear.) He should feel it to be his duty, at the close of the
proceedings, to lay the whole before the House and he trusted
that hon. gentlemen, in the exercise of sound discretion,
would abstain from requiring any information on the sub-
ject till such period, lest they should prejudge the cue.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that he had not yet heard of a
single arrest having taken plats, notwithstanding the dread.
ful and fatal nature of the
Mr. STANLEY admits bra net bowl at any oust
having taken place ; but, as be lid air* silk die skis
affair was under investigation by the pups autbseitiss.
Mr. BLAKENEY complained dos an Hon. Gentleman
opposite appeared to smile during the =hal of the Hon.
Member, who brought forward themodon. (Outer.)
The SPEAKER assured the boa gentleman that no
member of that house was capable of treating with levity
the question under discussion. The bon gentleman must

be aware that be could not impugn the n•otien of anodic-

hon. gentleman. - -
Mr. BLAKENEY resumed, and detailed at considerable
length the occurrences which had taken place at Newtown.
bawl.
Fa J. M. DOYLE said the yeomanry of England and
the yeomanry of Ireland were very different bodies of men;
for the one he had the greatest respect, but he could not Cr,.
terrain a similar feeling with respect to the other. Hetrustd
the honourable gentleman in the mean time would see the
propriety of withdrawing his motion. Before he sat down.
he would suggest that the arms of the yeomanry of Ireland
ought not always to remain with them ; from such a course
the greatest danger was to be apprehended.
Colonel CHICHESTER was of opinion, after the state.
meats of the Right Honourable the Secretary for Ireland.
it would be improper to pursue the discussion further.
Mr. HUNT was surprised that the Honourable Gentle.
man the Secretary for Ireland, should refuse to give the re.
quired information. The Hon. Gentleman was proceeding
at some length to animadvert upon some cinumstances
which had a personal allusion to himself, when
The SPEAKER rose to order.

The Hon. Gentleman resumed, but was obliged to sit
down amid repeated cries of Question and Otder.
Mr. HELMS was convinced that the ends of justice would
be best served by the hon. gentleman withdrawing his mo-
tion. He wished to know if the Magistrates had been al.
lowed to retain their situations.

. _
Mr. STANLEY said there was a bill before ;the other
Rouse of Parliament for continuing the Magistracy of Ire.
land for the ensuing six months, preparatory to a revision of
the system.
The motion was then withdrawn.