Star.
London, England, 1830-03-13 00:00:00

THE ODDINGLEY MURDERS.

WORCESTER, 31aacn It.
0 ClnittlidO tir 1111:h eTBII(4.I4IIitS 7(Cleriii.S.
" 3fr. Parker was shot oo Divensgrove fair day (he could not
0, exactly state die year); on the mono,/ morning, about seven o'clock,
George Hanks same to him, sad said. ' we bare got Resales at out
houss.and I don't know what to do with him; will you let him come
dews here ?' Clewes said 1 I wmft have him here, nor nothing to do
with him.' Banks then west of • be said Heating was lurking down
hi therseadows. Clews, went to.Oddingley about eleven o'clock iu
the day. to 'lr. Josses (who is since dead): as he west up tile '
reed side by Captain Ersos's. the Captain called to him ; be was in
kir garden by the rood side; he followed Cleves into the field and
said. • Iwo had Henning at. our house this mornhig. and
something smut be done, he's lurking down by your borne; I
ordered him to gat in your building in the day time or at die
olge of night, that I or my family might not see him. and some.
thing must be done by him • I shall come down to your house
' at night, end bring assreb;dy with ire ; we must give the
maw devil sane money, or de wareething with him. and send
him of; win you get up and conic to the barn ? it won't
detain you • minute.' Clewes refused, and said he did not like
to come ; the Captain said, 'it will make no odds to you. you
need set be afraid to come ; just come out at eleven o'clock,
it will make no difference to you, for it you do oat come I shall be
afraid of the dogs.' Cloves at the appointed hour went out at the
hock door, and down to the barn as the clock struck el-wen ; thee-
... Try the 'aptaitt, Jaseph Taylor, and he thought, lien. 11.1. k. ; lie
'relieved it to be him • he was in a mock hock : ihet all went ha"
the barn ; as soon as the Captain coined he called (out very loud i
• Hallo, liming., where bent ?' Iletuing and, • Yes, sir.'
The Captain and Taylor then stepped on the mound, whyli
Cloves described Is about the height of his knee ; the Captath
produced a lantern ; Clewes and George Banks were on the
thrashing door at the time: • the Captain bald • get up. Honing,
I've got some meat for thee g" Hetnipg was emoted up with straw ;
he partly toss up, as if he had bean lying on his bath • and as
he rose, Taylor. with a blood stick, hit him somewhere abut the
head. two or three blows. Cleves said, • this is bad work ; if I haat
known, you ehould not have had me here.' The Captain said,
' now he has got enough.' G. Banks and Ckwes were then standing
on the floor; Taylor ard the Captain came down from off the
mound ; the former said, ' what's to be done with him now ?' TI..
Captain said,' damn his body, we must not take him out of doors,
onnebody may see us may happen.' It was not very dark; Tarter
went out and brought an old spade; it was not one of Clevreit's;
the Captain said to Taylor, ' we'll soon put him safe. Taylor thee
searched round the opposite bay of the barn, and found a place whew?
the doge and rats had scratched boles ; he did not throw out many
Veda full of soil, and cleared the side of the wall ; • that will
do for him,' he said to the Captain, who lighted him. Banks and
Ckwes remained on the &tor. The Captain and Tay br then
.gat up on the mound, and pulled Heming down to the front ;
then the Captain said to Taylor, ' Catch hold of him.' They
dragged hint maces the floor into the hole which Taylor had dug in
tb: apposite bay, and which he soon covered up. Clewes could not
tell which way Homing was laid, as he never stepped of the fluor
into the bay. (At this pan of the mutative Clewes said.' I thought
I should have died where I was) The Captsin said to Taylor,
• Well done, boy ; I will give thee another glass or two of
brandy.' The Captain said to Clewes, 6 I will give you any
thing; d—n your body, don't you never split. They then
parted. and the Captain darkened his lantern. Taylor, the
Captain, and Banks, went towards t tddingley ; Mom went to bed :
the whole occupied altogether not half an hour; no clothes were
taken off Homing; there was no time for that. Heeling neither
moaned nor ;groaned after he was struck; Cleves did not see any
blood. lln the next day (26th of June) Clewes was at Perahore
fair; George Banks came to him in the fair in the afternoon. about
four or five o'clock, and called him up the entry at the Plough,
and said, ' Here's some money for you, what Homing was to
have had t' Mr. John Barnet was with him ; came with him ;
and Banks and Barnet each of them gave him money, ready
wrapped up, in two parcels, and said, 'Be sure you never
split ; Cleves did not count the money at that time ; there
was no more said about it; it amounted in all to about 2W. or
271. all in bills, no silver; both Banks and -Barnet said it was in.
tended foe Heating, to enable him to get off. Cleves was at the
Captain's a few days after 1 the latter sent for him, by a son of
Clewes, about seven years old ; the Captain said, ' there's bl. at
any time if you keep your puce •• Cloves never received any money
front him afterwards. Miss Gamine Banks came into the room
the same day, and taking Mom by the cost with both hands, she
went down on her knees, and begged and prayed that he would
never say a wad, as she was fearful the Captain bad beam
doing
o bad things, and was afraid if be spoke, scene of them
mere to be bonged ; Clews mamba he would never say
any thing. The Captain had a sale some time after, about three
years. This sale Clews. attended; the Captain asked bini,
Do yes want any thing ? if you do, I win make yore a present of
• Wine g• Climes purchased a black nom at the sale for about 281 In
the • of the ask, 111 r. Handy asked him to settle for the mare,
when die said to Mr. H. ' there's a settlement betwixt situand inao situ will settle for the mare;' the Captain never asked for
evesi
tits meg. Is nine or ten days after Hearing was knocked on the
bead, dm Maim wanted Clewes to put some soil in the halo
where Bads, was buried, at Netherwood ; in consequer ce a
a good many iasla were hauled to the barn door, and some was
thrown over each bay, and in the other barn as well; afterwards, the
Captain asked Clewn if it was done ; being told it was, he
said he was very glad of it; no more was said about it after.
wards. Mr. John Barnet lent Clewes 1001. afterwards, pan
of which is now owing; Cleves gave a bond or note for. it, and he
might have had it if he had applied in due time to Mr. Waterloo ;
WAS sure it was lent after the murder of Honing; he had mosey both
before and afterwards. A little time after the ponies was shot,Tay.
lor was put into gaol for what Rae bad said. The Captain and
bliss Banks were much afraid for fear Clews should tell; the Cap-
tain and Mr. Barnett were bad up ; the Captain asked Mires to be
bound by an oath, which he, as a magistrate, would administer, but
Cleves would not; G. Banks did not speak when he was in the
bars; Clews fully thinks it was him ; had on a smock.fruck ; bad
never seen him in a rinock-frock before.— (Having delivered this
sarrative, Cleves signed the deposition, at the same time declaring
his innocence.]
William Lowe, of Bristol—ln the year 1815, was at the Wire
Morse, Silver-street, Worcester ; remembers a man of the name c'
(*ewes being there ; has every reason to believe the primmer is the
man ;he is much altered—he was a finer-1 oking man thee. Wo-
men found a Demises of men there, and had some beer; Lkwes drank
with him; they bad wine; recollects the subject of their convetsa-
thin, it related to the report of Bonaparte's escape from Elba, aid
it was observed there would be a great slaughter in the grimy ;
Cron said there would nut be so much talk about that as there
ems about the murder of a parson a few years before • a convents.
than followed as to the death of the Rev. sin Poker, and last, dan
hour, or an hour and a half. Witness or his friend observed, that
wherever this Homing might be, be would be discovered, brought
to justice, and hung for the murder of Parker. Clewed replied, be
knew better than that—ileming was safe 'rough, aid would tie.
ver conic to be hanged. Is sure he reports this convcisatiem ae.u.
rat. Iy.
t toss-examined— Ile volunteered his evidence when he saw the
firs. account of the ingot,/ on Heming. lie wrote to tie Mayor or
Worcester, informing him of what be knew.
Mr. CUSWOOD stated this to be the cote for the prosecution.
Mr. Sergeant RUSSELL submlted that on the evidence thepsi-
shner was entitled to an acquit al. -
Mr. Justice LIITTLZDALi —Broth!? Ludlow, is not that a
question for the Jury ?
Mr. Sergeant Lunnow.—l submit not, my Lord. The indiett
ment charges my client with the murder of Heeling, and to sus sin
that they ought to have contradicted the confesso a, for the Dole
fact of his not being present, which was all that the confessios con-
tained, was not enough to cons itt,te the ain't of MULL There
was no evidence In ti e participation in the murder. The Learned
Sergeant proceeded to illustrate this position at great length, and
particularly dwelt upon the act that hie prisoser wens, as appealed
ft he confession and which was nut contradicted), to the ban,.
for the purpose of relieving Honing, and helping him to get out of
the way by giving him money. and that the mode, which followed
wro. one that he had no pre-knowledge of the intrlion so commit.
stud reapecting which he was takers by surprise.
Mr. Justice larransasr, with hearing Counsel in reply, dc.
tided that the case was one to go to the Jury.
'line trimmer, on being asked if he bad any thing to say, replied,
•• I leave it to my Com bet" .
Mr. Justice Littledale thee proceeded to charge the jury.* It sp.
grand fawn the evidence, that itr. Parker and his•patishi. nets we re
not on good terms, bad that he was murdered on the 24th of June.
11106 but they had nothing to do with that murder, links* ao far as
it might appear to furnish a motive few she murder of Homing.
They would readily see that as a au.picies stoma deed an Hewing,
mere might be persons who would have a motive to get him out at
the way. If they were to take the confession is the precise words.
of Clewes, it o minty did not amount to a proof of murder. It did
not appear to him to be madam to show that he was an ascemary
before the fact, although It was dechlve evidence that he was an ac-
cessary after the fact. It would be itsr them to say, looking at the
rest of the evidence, whether it candid the am of tbs Priam" be-
yond the limits alai d la the contessimit
The Jary at Seat forret the pristine gpiky as as accessary befote
,I.he fan ;
.but, ow IM
being ea lake. to them Mat he was wily
Merged as a principal i the they totursed a verdict
rismisig hie" Not guilty."
•I[lte indimments mold net lig tried, in consequence of
7theit fee wide the prima** bad asa boa tried i
.........
tw.d the bisasm'estidadi to disla.dimahare,
Ad& vsaa relied is *as warns, maralas. •,

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF LORDS-FRIDAY.

After evVence•had been given at the bar in support of 3lusltett's
o..voree. the hill 'was resit a seennd ti.tte, and ordered to be emu.
nzittetl on Ain/Iday.
The Duke of Mt /NTRO'4I presented a notition from Dum-
barton, against the renewnl of toe East India Comnany's chimer.
bore /W ER presented petitions from Iturilem an 1 another
pLust in Staffircishite. against the trick system (we believe.)
r;:r ALEX. AVT Old ether members of the noose of Commons
brought up a message. giving Sir Edward Uccle East, a member
of
that house, leave to attend their lordships' select committee, sitting
PP the inquiry into the atfairs of Indis, to give evidence.
if ALEX. GRANT. with other members. brought up a copy of ,
the Dloss•trit to the :ith !tenon of the Select Committee, appointed
Ir 1812. on the ..thret of India Affairs, which report was delivered
to the House of Lords on the 22d of July of that year, but the
falessery was we then annex,d to the Report.
Lord STANLEY, Admiral SOTIIERON, Me. CORPETT, with
other Members, brotig:it three private bills, all of which were read
a first time.
's person presented at the bat the report of the account of the
Central Penitentiary for the last year.
Sense private bills were read a third time, among which we
b-sieve was Lord Ellenborough's Divorce Bill.

IRISH POOR.
tarp DARNLEY, after referring to the resolution which passed
the preceding night in the House of Commons, for the appointment
of select c•tmmittee, to take into consideration the state of the
poorer classes in Ireland, with a view of affording the beat means
of improving their condition, said, that at an early day he should
take an opportunity of calling the attention of their lordships to the
sabject.

COALS.
The Marquis of BUTE presented a petition from the inhabitants
of the town and neighbourhood of Cardiff, against the Duties on
lwals carried coastwise.—Referred to the Select Committee on the
‘'o.ll Trade.

TRADE TO CHINA.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE said that he held in his hand a
petition to which he begged, very shortly, to call their bonlships'
attention. The petition was the first that the parties had conjointly
agreed to, although they had signed separate petitions on the same
subject; it was the petition of the merchants of the City of London,
engaged in the East India trade. (Hear.) The petitioners, as
lie had already intimated, had at different periods expressed their
opinions, which were unfavourable to the renewal of the East
India Company's Charter, in its present form.—but never In conjunc.
tion before. It had been asserted that the merchants trading to
India from London entertained different notions from those engaged
in similar pursuits from the outports, with respect to the trade
to Canton. Although their opinions might be somewhat dif-
ferent, yet they conceived it necessary that some alterations
ought to take place with respect to the Charter, as regarded trading
to Canton.
The petition having been read at length, the noble-marquis pre.
armed two other petitions of a similar tendency, from Greenock and
Bury, all of whom were referred to the committee.
The Exchequer Bills' Bill a.iil the Transfer of Aids' Bill, were
read a second time.
At Half-past Five their Lordships adjourned to Monday.

HOUSE OF CONEVIONS—FRIDAY.
laird JOHN RUSSELL presented a petition from certain mem.
hers of Rye, complaining of the undue election of members for that
borough.—Laid on the table.
Mr. C. DUNDAS moved the second reading of the Avon and
Gloucenershire Railway Bill.
A long discussion took place, in which Mr. HART DAVIS, 31r.
Bemire, and other members took part, the present bill being
considered as interfering with the Bristol and Gloucester Railway.
lite House then divided, when there appeared—
For the motion ..... ......... ..... 37
Against it ..
Lord G. SOMERSET presented a petition from the county of
Monmouth against the tithe laws.
Mr. LIDDELL presented a petition from the county of Sunburn-
berland, which had been passed at a county meeting without a dis-
sentient voice. It complained of a general agricultural distress and
complete stagnation of trade, and • prayed that, concomitant with
foe measures which affected the currency, there should be a rusluc-
lion of taxation, and a diminution of the public expenditure. The
han. member said that, notwithstanding the impression which was
abroad that the north of England did not suffer equally with other
parts of the kingdom, he could bear witness that the statements of
this petition were substantially borne out by facts. For his part he
could not but attribute a very considerable portion of the distress to
tl,e measure for the reduction of the one-pound note currency. So
far from the five-pound notes having been increased in number,
to had been anticipated, they had been greatly diminished—a
circulation of front 30 to 40,0001. had been withdrawn from the
county of Northumberland alone. With respect to the lead mines
in that county, they had been much depreciated. He knew
front persons of the highest credibility on the subject, that lead,
which hitherto had been supplied from those mines at 201 per ton,
was likely to be subjected to competition with foreign lead at 61. per
ton. He thought the ministry were bound to reduce the public ex-
per.diture and their own emoluments, and not afford the slightest
ground for complaint to the suffering country.—He thought mini-
sters should also consider whether by adopting a more secure system
of banking, after the example of Scotland, public confidence might
nut be generated, and the country be relieved. He moved that the
petition might be laid on the table.
Mr. BELL seconded the motion of his hon. colleague. He con-
eurr..ll in the statements of the petitioners. He attributed much of
the distress of the country to the system of free trade.
The petition was brought up, read, and laid on the table.
Mr. LIDDELL presented a similar petition ftom the district of
Norham, in the county of Durham.
Mr. H. DAVIS presented a petition front the Court of Directors
of the Bristol Chamber of Commerce, against the renewal of the East
India Company's Charter.
Mr. AItKWRIGHT presented a petition from the eastern part
of the county of Sussex, complaining of the public distress.
Sir J. NEWPORT moved for returns of the names, residences,
dm of certain persons, nominees in the years 1773, 1776, and 1777,
et the Irish Life Annuities, who had received the last half yearly
dividends.
Colonel LYGON presented the petition of certain farmers of a
dlstrict in Worcestershire, complaining of distress and praying a
reduction of taxation.
Read, and laid on the table.
CITY PETITION. _

Mr. WAITIIMA N, pursuant to notice, presented the following
petition of the meeting, convened by public notice, of the manufac-
turers, tradesmen, and others, residing in or near London,:
1. Representing the great depression and consequent distress that
now exists in the mercantile, trading, and shipping concerns of this
city, and which bears with such peculiar seventy upon the indus-
trious and laborious classes.
2. That it is not assignable to any temporary cause, a limited to
any particular district, but extends to the agricultural, and all the
productive classes of the community.
3. That there has been an unprecedented and rapidly-increasing
depreciation in all the articles of manufacture and produce of labour
.—causing an immense and often ruinous loss upon the value of
stock and capital employed—reducing also profits and the price of
labour—throwing thousands of hands cut of employment, while
others gain only a precarious and insufficient subsisteuce.
4. That it is their decided conviction that a principal cause of all
those evils is. the enormous and overwhelming pressure of taxation,
rendered Inure oppressive by the alteration in the currency, which
has withdrawn from general circulation and productive employment
a large amount of capital, and concentrated the sante in competi-
tively. few hands, therehy.causing the taxes to approximate to the
entire profits of the people, and. In defect of profits, to their capital
—deranging the whole system of commercial enterprise, and pa.
ralysiu„.. the active industry of the country.
6. That another prominent cause of the present distress, by which
these evils have been greatly aggravated, are those laws which they
were confidently told, would improve the trade and manufactures
of the country, by establishing a reciprocity of trade with, other
nations, but which, as other nations have not adopted a similar
• policy, have operated most injuriously to several branches of in.
stoney, and ssigmentid the public distress, by allowing foreign to
come into competition with. British labour in the home markets of
this country.
6. That they deem it shore necess try to make their grievances
known to your honourable.house, as his Niajestv's ministers seem
to be unacquainted with the real state and condition of the country ;
and while they. have admitted,. in the speech from the throne. "'that
'OWNS existed in some plicehr„they.have, from fallacious Cuitom-
. Nose ealuationlystated an insrease of exports as b, indications of
active ootnmerce," while it is notorious that the actulPfalue of ex-
ports has fallen off tp tne amount of several millions a year, for-se.
ural years past, and have Mien yielded no profitable return.
7. That they have seettiltilth no less surprise, the retail traders
represented as in a prospetpus.stete, while melancholy proofs to the
contrary are weekly presented. by the long list of bankruptcies ead
insolsencies, std still MOM numerous compositions with traitress:
That the unparsSeled oppreseton of the agricultural interests
Biros all classei, and uses general embarrassment and distress.
2. .That the dish:" mow of the people cannot sustain the
pole *eight of ; thet the, present state of the country de.
NM* every posilible ealaadoo.ol slas national burdens: that the
reducuape of Use Osaactilor of the Exchequer are quite
=qis ed
uate to the alleviation Of She' present suffering, and cannot

satisfy the just expectations of the public ; that it is with deep con-
e( en they find, MILT fifteen years of protound peace, ennimmet civil
and military establishments are still kept—s profuse expenditure in
places, pensions, and appointments, is still to be conthineel—many
ie them necessary only foe the purpose of patronage and parlia-
mentary influence.
10. That, in their opinion, the general and overwhelming dis-
tress which new pervades all ranks and classes of this country who
are not anemitents, and who do not live upon taxes, originated in the
long. bloody. and extravagant wars waged against the liberties of the
!eerie of America and France during the reign of George the
ritirel, which wars were sanctioned and abetted by a very large ma-
jority of a cornea and self-elected House of Commons.
11. They, therefore, most humbly pray your honourable house to
direct an immediate inquiry into the extent and causes of the gene-
ral distress that now unhappily prevails throughout the kingdom,
in order that your honourable house rray be enabled to apply those
remedies which, in your wisdom, may appear best calculated to at-
rest and remove the evils above respectfully detailed.
—The hon. alderman traced the riseof this depreciation fromlBls to
1810 ; during which it fluctuated about OM. per cent. bitt in :1123,
end then, to the present time, it fluctuated somewhere above or about
p•-r cent. owing, as it is allesed, to the mistaken measures of
the currency, passed in 1810, Co iting then into operation. It was
highly expedient, therefore, to call on the legislature to compel a
reduction of taxes to the greatest possible amount, as it was clear
the reduction of expense contemplated by the right hon. the Chan.
cellor of the Exchequer would be inadequate, and of no avail what.
ever in meeting the present universal cry of distress and embarrass-
ment felt throughout the country. Ile reprobated the system of
free trade, as it was falsely called, now in fashion with same then.
rista, who could see, without concern, the legislature taxing the
productions of our artisans to the extent of 751. per cent. ard, at the
same time, admitting those of foreign artisans at a protecting duty
of 301. per cent. (Hear, hear, hear.) The whole of the evils of
our present situation were the genuine offspring of a pernicious
and mischievous legislation. He moved the petition should be
brought up.
Mr. Alderman THO3INON bore testimony to the tespectability
and temper of the petitioners. Their complaints were, in many
instances, certainly not destitute of foundation ; but there being,
two opportunities, in debates fixed for next weet, for sifting the
metier of these allegations more efficaciously and consistently, he
should reserve himself for those occasions more fully to express his
sentiments.
Mr. Alderman WOOD supported the petition.
Mr. WARD had not attended on the occasion of the meeting,
but was fully satisfied of' the respectability of the parties who at.
tended, though not disposed to coincide in all the statements made
as to the causes of distress so generally felt.
Mr. HU3IE, agreeing with the petitioners that the house, as at
present constituted, was not the actual representation of the public
or of its mind, should, notwithstanding, be very sorry to let many
of these statements go forth to the public as though they were the
echo of or in unison with the sentiments of that party in the house
v ith whom he generally acted. The perpetual burden of this pe-
tition, as well as of the honourable alderman's speeches, who, no
doubt, had a great hand in the composition of this petition, and a
number of others like it, was that export prices had experienced de.
predation 00 or 70 per cent. This was echoed back again from
other parts of the kingdom—the hon. alderman and his supporters
all the while forgetting that the raw commodity out of which these
articles were manufactured had fallen 200—in some instances 300
per cent. The cost of cotton had fullen from 150 to 200 per cent.
If only three-fourths then of our exports consisted of cotton, the
merchant, manufacturer, and exporter, must put the difFerence be-
tween this depreciation and the depreciation of 60 or 70 per cent. on
the wrought article into their pockets. Thus on one article the total
depreciation was accounted for without any loss whatever to the
weaver. Taking, however, the average loss of price on all manu-
factured articles as at 100 per cent. still the depreciation of price on
the raw material was so much greater. that the manufacturer and
weaver must always be putting Iwo his pocket a profit on the trans-
actions between this and other countries Importing our goods. Be-
sides, when cottons rose as they did from fikl. to Bd. to 10d. to Is.
did the manufacturers ever come to Parliament and beg to be re-
strained in their excessive profits by act of parliament, and proposing
that excess of profit towards the reduction of taxation ? (Cheers
and laughter.) But it was really a matter of wonder to him how
assertions such as this petition was crammed with should be
echoed from Manchester and other places, the abode of intelligent
beings. Was it that they treated every thing which came from the
honourable alderman as gospel, because his views were most conve-
nient for them to adopt ? The honourable alderman complained
the system was not one of reciprocity ; but so said he (Mr. Hume);
there was no reciprocity in the honourable alderman and the trades-
men's system ; fur when they were putting enormous profits in their
pockets they contributed no part to the public emergencies.—(Hear.)
He agteed with the honourable alderman that most of the present
embarrassment originated in the alterations in the currency, but not
to the ex ant imputed to the system by the honourable alderman ;
but he certainly admitted there were times, and this was a crisis,
which strongly reminded every rational mind of the imperative ne-
cessity of adopting the most rigid economy and retrenchment.
Mr. ROBINSON hoped the legislature would at length see its
way very clearly in this conflict of difficulties, and remove from of
the shoulders of the working classes the heavy pressure of taxation,
and put it on the rich, who were well able to bear that load. lie
could say, flan his own experience, that in later yea,. he had, for
his own and others' accjunt, shipped goods to the amount of
hundreds of thousands of pounds, which never returned above .501. or
GUI. per cent.
Mr. MA BERLY remarked that the exports and imports had
been proved to be going on increasing ',vols.. If tie honourable
alderman and the tradesmen of London wished to secure, us they
used to do, by high prices, 70 or 80 per curt profit, they should re-
collect that the pretend scale of duties was fixed expressly to pre-
vent the smuggler fiord coming in and taking his share of those
profits. Hence the fall of prices, and hence many of the complaints,
which originated in their own anxiety to secure profits which it was
found impossible to retain.
The petition was then 'nought up,
On die question that the petition be read being put.
31r. WAITHMAN said that as the horn member fur lolontrose
had been indulged in so many observations with respect to hint, the
house, he thought, could not refuse to hear a few words in reply.
The hon. gentleman had recommended hint to inform himself more
accurately on the subject of trade, but perhaps he understood the
subject much better than the hon. gentleman. (A laugh.) He
had been 40 years in business, and ought to understand something
of it. The depreciation which had taken place during the last ten
years was considerable. This he would maintain. We had our
labour to sell, and unless it could be proved w him that it was more
our advantage to give it away than to sell it, he could not admit
that he was in error. He remembered the time when the right hon
secretary of state's father got, to his certain knowledge, 11. profit on
every piece in an article which would not now sell fur 11. the piece.
(Hear.) The honourable gentleman who had opposed his state-
ment had expressed himself in the most positive manner—the
more positive as he was • the more ignorant ; but he (Alderman
Waithman) knew of cases in which men had lust thousands by the
depreciation which bad actually taken place. It had been asked
would merchants continue to persevere in a losing trade. He would
answer that the manufacturer who had in Isis possession a great
quantity of goods, and wanted money, would sell them at soy
loss ; he would sell them not in the regular market, but to
the speculator, as stolen goods were sold, for any thing they
would bring. And in this way the speculative merchant could
trade. But then it was said that our exports had increased.—
The fact, however, was, that nothing could be more gradual than
the increase, and nothing more sudden than the fall ; it was full 23
per cent. at once. if he were to be asked what had Government to
do with this, he would say that they ought not to permit foreigners
into time market, and that they ought to reduce the taxation.—
What had been the consequence of the opposite system ? It had
ruined the old traders. There was hardly a name in business which
had nor become bankrupt within his recollection. Formerly it used
to be an object with men of business to be known as successors to
others. That was out of fashion now, because there were so few
to whom they could succeed. Ile spoke as a practical man, as a
man of business ; and, notwithstanding what the hon. gentleman
had said, he knew more of the subject than three-fourths of the
House of Commons. He hoped he was conducting himself with
becoming modesty ; (loud laughter) but he owed nothing to the
house. They owed him their attention, for he represented 10,000
independent electors, who had returned him without a shilling of
expence, and who could not hare done so if they did not feel that
they could give him their confidence. But era ie. they were told,
was rising; the manufacturing towns were told so by this time ;
but the misfottune was that they had been told the same thing for
the last ten years. As for the expenditure of the counuy, the
landed gentlemen, who now cried nut so loudly, had encouraged
it by the countenance which they gave to the late ruinous war.—
He was the fiat roan who had presented a petition against it
thirty years ago. (hear, hear, hear,) That petition called
upon the house to disclaim the principle of interference in
the internal concerns of France. But the disavowal was mot palata-
ble to the landed gentlemen then, and, unfortunately, it so hap-
pened that parliament was always ready to interfere in favour of ty-
ranny, but unwilling and diffident when liberty was the cause at
stake. And white had they done after all? They had seated the
Betatrons on the throne of France, who had not now the gfatitude
so take a single yard of their cotton.—(Laughter.) They had placed
a monster on the throne of Spain, they had tole:toted another on
time throne of Portugal. It war thus they satisfied their consciences,
it' conscience,' they had, upon the subject of interference and non-in,
terfetence. In the year 1890, he presented another petittastso pap.
liament.--(Cries of "Question, question.") It met with a similar
fate, and an because of the ruinous 'ram of misrule whisk It
suited the purposes of a tempt House of Commons to adopt. The
consequences were now combed home to the landed interest, and' If

they did not look about them quickly, and see what was to be
the business would be done out of doors. He had never der*/ that
there was not an advantage in foreign trade ; but when thee was no
foreign Mai ktt, had they not a right to complain ? Parliament
had sacrificed ev, re thing under the mischievous delusion that they
were increasing the foreign trade of the courtry, when the fact was
notoriously the reverse. Ile had read much upon the subject, and
he was free to confess that, after all his reading, he found himself
more perplexed than informed.—(laughter.) Mr. Ricardo told
him one thing, and Mr. MiCulloch told him another thing,
—The latter gentleman told him that it was just the same thing
whether gentlemen spent their money here or in Paris. He also
told hint that, if they would not take our goods in France, they
would take them in America; but the fact tunnel out to be, that
they would neither take them in France nor in America. if they
were resolved to meet the evil by the reduction cf taxation, they must
begin at the top, and not stop until they got to the bottom. They
must touch the sinecures and the church. They might talk of sound
principles and sound nonsense, but he was speaking of facts. h
respect to the war in which they had been engaged—(Loud cries of
"Question.") Well, he would not enter into it now. He ass
grateful to the house for the indulgence they had given him, hut he
did not think he owed them any apology. lie stood upon his right
as s member of that house on presenting a petition, which came
from a great body of the people, to recommend and enforce the object
of that petition by every exertion which he was capable of making in
its behalf.
Mr. O'CONNELL was glad of the opportunity now afforded
him. of expressing his thanks to the chief magistrate and the hon.
alderman, tot the testimony they had borne in the petition just re-
ceived, to the salutary measure of radical reform. The allusion to
the public debt, and the manner in which it had !Inn contracted,
happily did not apply toe reformed house of commons.

TREASURER OW THE WAVY.
The CH ANC ELL( /R of the EACH EQU ER moved the order
of the day for the house resolving itself into a committee of supply.
Sir J. GRAHAM said that painful circumstances, of a domestic
nature, rendered it difficult for him to proceed with the motion of
which he had given notice; but, lest he should seem wanting in
respect for the house, after having • renewed his notice, he would
endeavour to discharge the duty which devolved upon him however
imperfectly he might succeed, and throw himself on the indulgent
favour, and, he might almost say, the sympathy of the house. He
regretted
that upon this occasion he was obliged to appear before
them in rather an invidious character, but when the distresses of the
country called out so loudly for relief, he could not pass without
notice the slightest infraction of that engagement which was made
at the commencement of the Session, and which bound them to
make every possible saving in the expenditure. They had acted in
contradiction to that pledge. This was the narrow ground upon
which the mintsten and he were at issue. But first, he would dis-
embarrass the question of those topics which did not belong to it ;
and here he could assure the right honourable gentleman that he did
not bring forward the motion through any ill will to him ; on the
contrary, he felt for him all that respect which was due to a blame-
less reputation (hear, hear.) He would not touch the question why
the right hon. gentleman had left office with his friends, and re-
turned to office without them ; but before he proceeded any fuither,
he was bound to correct an error into which he had involuntarily
fallen. He had understood, and had stated upon a former occasion,
that the right hon gentleman held a patent office connected with
the customs. In that opinion he found that he was mistaken. The
right hon. gentleman, as he now understood, was not possessed of
any emolument beyond the 2,000/. a year as Treasurer of the Navy.
In proceeding to the immediate question, he wished to state, that,
as he was unacquainted with the details of the office himself,
he must depend upon the description given by others as to the
nature of its duties. With this view, he should refer to the
statement of Lord Goderich in the year 18?6, his Lordship
having himself filled the office of Tremont of the Navy (hear)
The duties of a treasurer of the navy were not confined to drawing
bills, but all money payable upon seamen's wills passed through
the office, and the treasurer was responsible that these sums should
be paid to the persons to whom they were really due. The noble
lord had further stated, that there was not only a treasurer of the
navy, but a paymaster also, the fumer of whom was responsible.
but the latter not; and he conterded that if the duties and the nu
ponsibility were to be thrown upon the paymaster with a salary of
only 1,0001. a-year, they could not be efficiently performed. Now
it appeared that an intention had been announced to discontinue the
Ake of paymaster of the navy altogether; but that the two Aka
most be continued until the present paymaster was otherwise=
Tided for. This amounted to a clear admission that only one
was necessary. (Hear, hear. The sole and narrow ground, there.
fore, for keeping up the office of treasurer of the navy was the res.
ponsibility attached to it ; but, fur his own part, he viewed paltry
security of individuals as nothing in eases where the millions
rrlthrough the hands of the party. Responsibility un-
sitich circumstances, and founded upon such aecurity, he
was disposed to treat very lightly. Indeed Lord Goderich
gave, in a subsequent speech, an exellent test of the value of
such responsibility. He mentioned one ease in which a person be.
came a defaulter to the extent of 25,0001. and fled to America, whi-
ther he was followed, and was by threms frightened out of all that
he had remaining of it, amounting to 15,0001. For this latter sum
' the sureties were applied to, but in the result a loss occurred to the
country. Another case was, where a person in the office over which
hoed Goderich himself presided became a defaulter to the amount
0f6.0001. and in that case his lordship said, that if he had not been
able to satisfy the Lords of the Treasury that the loss was not occa-
sioned by any fault of his, he would have been responsible and corn
polled to pay the deficiency. He was not, however, called upon to
pay, because as the noble lord himself said, as he was nut in fault it
would be most unjust to make him pay. How, then, he would ask,
could he be responsible ? By his own showing, if he could not be
shown to have been porlierpe erinrinis' his responsibility was not
even that of a shadow of a shade. The hon. hart. then alluded to
the evidence given before the finance committee, which had come to
such an untimely and lamentable tate, ard upon which he hoped
the hon. member for Abingdon would summon an inquest. He
really hoped that smite I . smother would take some step towards
its revivaL (Hear, hear.) For Ilia own part, he placed great
reliance upon the researches of the chairman, to whose valuable
services he felt bound to offer that public record of his opinion. The
statement of the master of the mint before the couuuittee was, also.
in his opinion, the clearest exposition of the affairsof the country
he had ever before seen, so that on many accounts he regretted the
premature termination of that committee. The hon. member for
Lhnfries, in giving his evidence before that committee, had stated
that the office of treasurer of the navy was a nominal office, to which
no responsibility and no duties were attached. The evidence of the
vice-admiral (Sir O. Cockburn, we believe) was to the effect that
the treasurer of the navy should be an efficient officer, lowed of an
officer of state, holding it on account of the salary. It was no part
of his are to contend for the abolition of the office of treasurer of
navy, for he was aware that Mr. Burke had reported, as had also
the finance committee of 1817, in favour of the office ; and it might
therefore be deemed presumptuous in hint to move for its situ.
lition, in the thee of such a recommendation. Ills object was this
--that if the office was to be kept up, it should be attached to some'
other efficient office, the holder of which should not be under
the rank of Privy Councellar, whereby a retired salary would be
saved to the country.—(Hear, hear.) In this motion he was sup-
ported by precedents as far back as the year 1782. and continuing
down almost to the present time, the office being held during almost
the entire interval conjointly with other efficient and responsiule
offices. In 1712, it was held by Mr. Dundas (the late Lord 31e1.
vine), and he continual to hold it, except for the short period that
it was held by Mr. Townsend. down to the year 1800. He held it
in 1792, wi bout any profitable office besides; for, though he was
also president of the board of controul, it was not until 1793 that a
salary was attached to that office. In IVO! he was secretary of state
fur the home department, and he held the treasurership of the navy
in conjunction with that Ole?, as he did also in 1794, in conjunction
with the office of secretary at war. In 1801 he was out of office, and
then the office was held toe a short time separately Its Lord Harrowby.
It was subsequently held by %tr. B. Bathurst and by Mr. Tierney;
and, in 1807, Mr. G. Rose held the cffice, in conjunction with that
of vice-president of die board of trade. He continued to hold bob
offices until 1812, when he gave up the vier-presidency of the board
of trade, and continued to hold the treasurership of the navy until
his death, which took place in 11114. Then land Uodetich was
appointed to the office, which be held conjointly with that of Vice-
President of the Board of Toole, with which office it bad been ever'
since united in the persons of the right hon. member for Liverpool
(Mr. Iluskisson,) the right bun. nittubt r for Inverness (Mr. C
Grant.) and Mr. V. Fitzgerald. Thus it would be seen that the
office had been always held by laborious and sffect.ve Officers of
S ate; and thus had he shown ample precedents :et the obj ct he had
in view. He would, with the have of the house, et ad the opinion of
Mr. Tierney respecting the labour% of' the office premisittg that this
opinion was given when it was under consideration whether theoffies
should not be united with that of the President of the Board of
Trade. In mentioning the name of Mr. Tierney. however he
could not avoid paying to his memory that tribute of sitteiebs
went which was due front a faithful retold. (Hear, hear.) -
That government which was so lauded for its economy had
panted to Lord Bexley—who was himself a wealthy mam—
a retiring pension of 3,0001. a-year. while Mr Tierney was content
to retire with his private fortune only ; but
Regum sequalsat toptat animis

He had fought the good light. sometimes alone, Alla lionetinirs at
the head of a numerous body of members of that house ; and at limit
it was his honest pride that he had lira without a pension, 'and it
was the honest pride of his family that he had died without a
debt. (Cheery.) df amongst public men an incorruptible patriot',
was to be found, that man was Mr. Tierney. (Cheers )L Tice opi.
nion of Mr. Tierney was, that the business of the cifice did litOl
occupy more time than one hour each day when he held it ; so that,
if it was not absolutely a sinecure, it was as nearly so a► possible ;
unless, indeed, it could be shown that some change had taken

place since then, which had thrown a greater share of business
into that office. He had listened with great attention to the
speech of the hon. hart. (the member for Edinburgh,) in the expec-
tation of hearing that some additional duties had accrued to tb.
office, but he had listened in vain ; for the hon. hart. had not said
that any additional business was now to be transacted at that office.
lie saw that the treasurer of the navy had given notice of a motion
for leave to bring in a bill to consolidate the acts relating to the
treasurership of the navy, and he hoped the object of that bill was
to diminish the duties as well as the expenses of the office. In a
work which had been published by the chairman of the Finance
Committee, and in another which was put forth by Mr. Abbott,
it was stated that the office was devoid of all arrangement ; and in
a report made by Mesa*. nrookbank and Phelps, they stated that
this want of arrangement was the result of their having neither a
proper ledger nor cash-book. (I fear, hear, hear.) The honourable
baronet here observed, that if a proper arrangement were made in
that department, it would simplify the business, and, instead of an
hour a day, which the duties of that office heretofore occupied, halt
an hour would be sufficient. He thought it would be impossible
to have the treasurer of the navy a member of the board of Green.
with HospitaL He understood that ministers had offered the office
to the Marquis of Chandos ; if so, they must have it in contempla-
tion to put the noble marquis at the head of the trade of this country ;
and he believed, up to the meeting of Parliament ministers had not
made up their minds to separate that office from the board of trade.
He (Sir James Graham) thought that the best office to attach the
treasurership to was the vice president of the board of trade. It might
be said that the business had increased In that department, so that
it would be impossible for one person to discharge both duties.—
He (Sir James) could scarcely believe that business in the office of
Board of Trade had so much increased, when there were so many
complaints of distress throughout the country. lie felt secure of
the vote of the paymaster of the forces on this occasion, unless he
had changed opinions since he had left his (Sir James's) side of the
house. The hon. baronet here read extracts from a speech made
some years ago by Mr. Calcraft, the paymaster of the forces, com-
plaining of a salary being attached to the office of treasurer of the
navy, which he represented as a sinecure. The speech ended in these
words—" The amount of the salary is small, but the principle is
everything." The hon. member then proceeded to say, that there
were seventy pensioners of the crown in that house. There were
twelve ministers of the crown members of two committees that

were now sitting. These, with the East India Directors, carried
everything before them in these committees. He thought that this
house was sinking in its reputation.--(Hear, hear.) If, according
to his view of the breath of his majesty a minbters, they could carry
every thing they pleased. If after the declaration lately made by
ministers respecting economy, they had filled up this office, which
was a mere sinecure, it behoved this house to let the Duke of
lington know that the Commons of England will not be so tampered
with. The hon. baronet concluded by moving, that it is the opinion
of this house that the late vacancy in the office of treasurer of the
navy afforded an opportunity to ministers of saving 30001. a year,
without a violation of any engagement or detriment to public service.
The motion having been put from the chair,
tiir O. CLARKE observed, that the reason why the office of
paymaster of the navy was not held responsible for the money paid
by him, was because he was the deputy of the Treasurer. He then
entered into the circumstance alluded to of Lord Goderich. as quoted
by the hon. baronet, respecting the responsibility attached to it, ob-
serving, that In the use of the defaulters mentioned no person was to
blame. as he had fled from the country, and consequently it would be
unjust to compel the treasurer to make good the sum lost thereby.
The bon. member then proceeded to say that the office in question
was incompatible with any of the offices held by privy councillor/4
as it would prevent them from attending to the business of the
country. Mr. Tierney, he said, held that office without any
other being attached to it. He thought it impracticable to die.
charge the duties of that office conjointly with any other in which
there was much business. With respect to the observation made
regarding the treasurer being a member of the Board of Green-
wich Hospital, he In gged to say that the treasurer was chairman
of that board ; and as them was a great deal of naval business trans.
acted by that board, it was highly fit that some high officer in the
navy department should be a member of it. By the present ar-
rangement a saving had been dreamt. lie thought the house
would give the greatest credit to the government when they heard
the extent of the reductions which had been made in every depart-
tnent connected with the navy. By the appointment of leis right
hon. friend he was convinced the naval establishment would receive
very considerable advantage, from his ability as a man of business
and perseverance. On former occasions, when this office was joined
with another, it was impossible for the duties to be efficiently per.
formed. They would now have the undivided attention of a man
possessed of many requisites for the office. Ile must therefore op.
pose the motion.
Mr. C tICRAFT said, he should on this occasion vote in such
a way as would enable him to reconcile his actions with his words.
The right hon. gentleman alluded to a speech he had made in 1826,
which the honourable baronet had quoted. In 1826, he had
stated it as his opinion that the office of President of the Board
of Trade ought to be better paid. It was an office of excessive
labour and anxiety, and the salary attached to it was 2,0001. a.
year. The proposition then was that the salary should be in.
creased to 6,00 W. Upon that he had said, why not combine
the duties of the Treasurer of the Navy, the satiny of which
was 3,0001. with those of the President of the Board of Trade,
and so increase the salary paid to the individual bolding the
situation to 5.0001. per annum. This was done, and the party re-
ceived a commensurate reward with his labours, without imposing
fresh butthens upon the public. Well, it was now wanted to pay
1,0001. per annum for the performance of the duties of an office.
which at the same time was to become more laborious as more
highly responsible. Timm in addition, it was proposed to do awny
with the paymaster, whose salary was 1,2001. per annum, so that
the whole saving to the country proposed was 2,200/. Hence the
immense duties were to be performed for tile sum of 1,0001.
!laving said thus much upon the quesion, he was to defe:.d him.
self for having formed a junction with the present administra.
tion. if there was any one step during his life which he felt proud
of, he would say it was, that having been asked by the duke of
Wellington to take office under his administration, lie had upon
mature deliberation accepted the situation he then held. Hr daily
became more satisfied with himself for Navin joined it. (Hear, and
laughter.) He would ask the house whether a...y preceding event-
event had ever evinced so great a desire for reduction as that of
which he was a member. lie would ask that house whether the
government had not manifested every disposit,on to sacrifice its
patronage, when in so doing a public good was to be obtained.
(Hear.) He aid not therefore conceive that his joining them had
been in contradiction to his assertions on former Occasions.
Lord HOWICK regretted that the finance commioter bad not
eat in deliberation longer than it had. because lit thought it might
have reemnmended that the various offices for the payment ut the
public money should be concentrated. It appeared, however, troth
what had been stated in that house, that the office sat payttuniter
thould be abolished, but that the then occupant sat the bi.th
could out be removed until I.olllt a lECC was tumid our him. So
that once a servant of the country. and you become a pensioner
upon the public purse for life. (Hear, hear.) It was certainly
comfortable to be provided for. lie wished all could be provided
the. He should have t:o objection to receive 2,0001. it would make
a very pleasant addition to his income. But wlaist they were
talking of these agreeable additions, let them pause tor a teemetit.
and recollect by whom the money was to be found.—(heat hear.)
The sums must be drawn from the pockets of the labourer. et the
mechanic, and artisan, and of the it dustrious trad.eaten.—(hear.
hear.) These were the panics who would be crushed by the
He considered that they would be guilty of a gross derelie.
Lion of duty were they not to agree to the resolution proposed by his
hon. friend the member for Cumberland.
Mr. Clit tKER remarked, that the observations of the noble lord
were completely euntradictory to those uttered by Lis own friends,
when he called upon honourable members to supi,ort It. The Titot.
honourable gentleman then went minutely tyrough a series of
opinions, which had been expressed in that hot se by earl Grey.
when he held the office of First load of tic Admiralty, and of
the lite Mr. Tierney, whilst holding the oince, and subsque it
to that period, of Treasurer of the Navy, relative to the uuti s
which mune under its jurisdiction. The salary was at that tints tour
thousand pounds per annum. Sluice that tune the duties had es-
sentially ibcreased. The duties, the limb of the lineation had
usually been done by a paymaster. a sort of deputy, so that :'es
lebuur of the treasurer biotech sae comparatively but little. Any
office might be made a sinecure by the app eitttttttttt oh is deputy.
(If this the government were swam. and they had be, n detennitted
to put an end to it, by making it a separate and substantive uffice.
so that the party filling it should transact the business adherent w
it. The duties had become greater. and the cumin of responsibility
was much higher. The deputy was in fact the attest toy to the trea-
surer, actirg by power of attorney for I' . It ass a known fact.
that what defrications there had been in the public departments, had
been the act of a treasurer's treasury who was performing the duties
of another office. In WOO, the salary of the paymaster was 500 r•
per annum. In 1001, itt consequence of the increased duties, it was
I
raiatel to MIL in 1819 to 1,0001. and in 1826 to 1,2001. the preset::
aunt. Having gone throny h additional statements, the hon. member
defended the appointment in question, and said ho must oppose the

piotiou.
HUSKISSON feeling that he was the only member then in
the house who had filled the situation of Im:sitter of the navy, when
performing the duties of pmeldenkof the board ctt trade, thought
►ome sot tof esplanation might be looked flit from him. He boots-
timony to the efficiency of .ttre. right hoir. gentleman who had just
balm appointed. This question ought to be considered only in a pub.
He light. It was one of considerable Importance. The ministers had
declared their intention not to fill up this office, sad In a few days
thetppolottneint wits nude. t;uch n step calling for the passiagrif the
resolution mused, ur something tantamount to it. by Way 44 pmt'