Star.
London, England, 1831-10-06 00:00:00

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE did not know how the
noble lord could say be had limited himself to the financial
measures of Government, since he bad charged all the men.
MITTS of the present Administration with being of a destruc-
tive and subversive character. (Hear.) That was the charge,
and yet they had passed the bankruptcy court bill and the
lunatic bill, the measures of those who were changing and
subverting every thing without consideration. (Hear.) But
as to the specific or corrected charge—had all their financial
measures failed ? Had the noble lord been present, and if
present, was he swore that they had sanctioned the coal bill,
the wine duties bill, and the measure altering the whole
system of the cotton trade ? If he knew that those mea-
sures had received the sanction of Parliament, did he also
know that the last-mentioned bill in particular had had the
effect of vivifying the cotton trade of Manchester and of the
north of Ireland ? So that he would take the liberty of saying
with respect to the financial measures alone the ministers
had been successful to an extent that warranted them to
claim the confidence of the parliament respecting other
measures that they might propose. lie was afraid that the
speech which had just been uttered had been kept too long.
(a laugh) If delivered at all, it ought to have been deli-
weed before those measures had passed ; to deliver it now,
and talk of failures of the ministers measures, those roes-
surest having passed with unanimous voice, was, to say the
least of it, somewhat out of time. But the noble lord had
discovered a new reason for not listening to this bill,namely,
that it resulted from paying too much attention to the phi.
losophers of Birmingham. Why, only a year ago, the no-
ble lord bad himself tried to create one of these philosophers,
but,.unfortunately, he had failed. The noble lord, on the
East Retford question, had contended with great earnest.
ness that it was of the utmost importance to transfer the
East Retford franchise to Birmingham. (Hear, hoar.)—'
The Noble Lord had adverted to the evils of popular elec-
tion, and of the dangers to be apprehended even to distin.
guished men when their popularity had failed ; and curiously
enough the coalition of 1782 tree referred to, the Noble Lord
(who was exceedingly well read in history) intimating that
in consequence of such coalition, the parties to it became as
unpopular as the anthreformeis now were, and that it occa-
sioned Mr. Fox to lose Westminster. Now, how was the
fact ? Why, so far from losing Westminster, Mr. Fox was
re-elected after that coalition, giving signal proof that the
gratitude of the country would continue with a man, whose
public services, or patriotic sentiments, had attracted atten-
tion I ( Hear.) It was a great argument with the noble lord.
and, indeed, with many other noble lords, that the Ministers'
Bill would overturn the existing institutions of the coun-
try, and destroy what had been so carefully tran-
emitted by their ancestors. The speeches of noble lords—
particularly of a noble Earl ( Harrowby) last night—had
dwelt on the sentiments and speeches of those on former oc-
casions who now supported the bill. If he were to pursue
that course, he could make as good a speech as it was possi-
ble for him to make. Out of the small portion of the speeches
already delivered on this question that really applied to the
bill, a very great proportion was in favour of the principle
of the bill ; and if he were to select that proportion—if he
were to notice the concessions to expose the inconsistencies,
and to bring for ward the admissions even of all the lords who
had professedly opposed the bill, he should be able to deliver
a most excellent speech in favour of the bill. But he did
not wish to pursue any such course, though he could not
avoid remarking, that the inconsistencies showed the weak-
ness of opposition, and the attemps to concert opposition the
impossibility to accomplish concert. He would, however,
particularize so fat as to remark that all admitted that the
current of public opinion on the question of parliamentary
reform was very strong—(hear). He sou ready to admit that
changes were evils in themselves, and only justified by the
progress of events, and the wants of civilisation; and he
was ready also to admit that nothing could be safe except
property gave a *rutin degree of influence. But there was
one inference that bad been drawn, namely, that the cha-
racter of our institutions was remarkable for offering rigid
resistance to changes—that be must most resolutely deny.
He had not so read the history of the changes that had taken
place in this country ; he had read it very differently. What
said the laws affecting the reformation? What said the laws re-
jeaing the monarchy of the Stuarts? What the laws altering
the suceession,and securing it in the House of Hanover ? What
said the laws uniting England and Scotland, and afterwards
Ireland to Great Britain ? And, lastly, though it was in-
ferior In Importance to none of the instances preadin it,
what said the laws introduced by the Noble Duke (We .
ifiret
ton) regarding the Catholic claims, and the alteration of
constituency of Ireland ? (Hear.) Where, in those 'Ms.
stances, did they discover that it was the character of the in-
stitutions of this country to offer the most rigid resistance
to changes in the practice of the Constitution ?g(Hear.) Oa
the contrary, as he read out history, to secure the institu-
tions of the country, to meet public opinion, to concede to
the wants of improved civilization, the laws had been made
to7bend—to break, if they liked the word better—before
the:just demand of circumstances. (Hear, hear.) There-
fore. so far from the character of our institutions
haying offered rigid resistance to change, its character
was that it had met the demands of circumstances, and thus
secured our institutions. As he had heretofore intimated,
be thought their efforts ought to be to absorb and gather
round the Constitution all the strength and knowledge of
the country. (Hear.) By this measure be contended that
this object would be accomplished ; the people who had be-
come better judges of their own interests, would be more
strongly identified with the institutions ; and if this mea-
sure had not the virtue of being calculated to absorb and
gather all the strength and knowledge of the country, to the
support of the state, it would not have the virtue which be
deemed it to possess. And if that object were not accom-
plished, the institutions, instead of descending magoifi.
cently as they had hi.herto done, would fall and leave
not a wreck of their former renown and power. By timely
listening to the requisite, this calamity would be avate&
With that feeling he had heard with great regret the
Noble Duke's declaration against all Reform; and he
had heard his recent explanation of the language with at
least equal surprise. the Noble Duke had told their
lordships that in using such language he spoke as a Minister
of the Crown ; that is fact he had felt himself to be in such
a situaLion that (whatever might be his own personal views
on the subject), as the Minister of the Crewe he felt it
incumbent on him to oppose all reform ; from the Noble
Duke's character, he should not have expected the adoption
of such a course; and the more especially after the comae
he pursued on the Catholic question. He (Lord L.) bid
never before come forward as a parliamentary reformer, lee-
cause he had always thought that if reform were brought I
forward, it could be safely brought forward only by a
Minister of the Crown. By that course being pursued,
be should know exactly what it was proposed to
alter ; but that course not having been pursued, he
fled not had the opportunity till now of stating his opi.
nions on reform. Therefore bad he abstained from de-
' daring his opinion on reform. And what the Noble Duke
(Wellington) had declared on thetCatholic question, confirm.
ed himjin the conviction of the propriety of his course. On
that occasion the noble duke reminded them that he had been
solicited by the late Lord Castlereagh to join in bringing for-
ward a Catholic Bill, and that he had declined to jom in
sucn a mature until it should have the unction of the
King's authority. That decision of the noble duke he thought
a wise one; but why sou the principle of it not allowed to
be applied to this bill ? Here were the tables turned upon
then,. On the reform question a minister of the town
was not to meddle with any bill to effect it, even though
such Reform Bill were presented to Parliament with the
approbation of the Sovereign. (Hear.) He could see no
ground for this difference. (Hear.) But here was the bill,
and though it was opposed, ail the opponents of it had ad.
milted the necessity of some reform. He begged pardon,
there was one exception on the first night, in the instance of
a noble earl (Mansfield). It sou true they had proceeded with
great caution ; sometimes making a step forward, then
making one backwards; but nevertheless, all saw some
ground for moving—(hear), with the exception before made.
(Hear.) If they had any plan of reform, if amongst them
they could give it shape,
ta Which shape hath none distinguishable;

if in the ;messes of their minds there lurked any plan that
would be better than the one now proposed, as they had
so much complained of it, while they admitted the justice
and necessity of some Reform, he thought the people of
England would have just right to complain of them, for
having allowed six months to elapse, and the much
abused dissolution to take plate, without even yet having
brought forward their nostrum. ( Hear from the Marquis
of Londonderry.) He was glad that the noble marquis
said " hear," because be, no doubt was going to tell them
what his nostrum is. (Loud laughter.) He repeated, that
this was not fair conduct towards the country ; it was op-
peeing Reform, yet admitting she netwasity of Reform Leo
that if the bill were rejected, the people would not know in
what their saksy consisted. (Hear. beer.) All they knew
was, that &wain noble Ards had a something better than
this bill that would be for the benefit of the people ; but
what that something better was. Wither the people nor the
Parliament w allowed to knew: The ministers bad em-
barked on the voyage, but not Wilmot a due sense of the

perils to which they exposed themselves; but still, regard-
less of diMeulties to themselves, they had engaged in it.
Certain noble lords had also embarked, and were dropping
down to St. Helen's, to join in the voyage, if they thought
it expedient. (Cheers and laughter.) If they thought that
those who now came forward, to attempt a cure, (wherever
they admitted there was complaint) were impostors and
empiries, it was rather hard towards the country to allow
them to put off their bad wares and poisons. (Cheers and
laughter.) Those who thought themselves, by prescription,
the state physicians, would not prescribe, would not let
them know what ought to be administered, so that there
was no remedy but to have recourse to the quackery of the
noble earl (Grey.) (Loud cheers and laughter.) They
were all moved by the necessity of the ease—all, with one
exception. He begged pardon, there was not occasion for
that exception, for the noble lord (Mansfield) had admitted
that he would reform something—the bribery at elections.
The Earl of MANSFIELD.—Oh no, I consented to no
reform about bribery. (Much cheering and laughter.)
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE begged pardon. He
thought the noble earl had aaid something about bribery,
and his willingness to do something to correct the comp.
tion and expense which It occasioned ; but he now under.
stood that the noble earl intended to do nothing. (Much
cheering and laughter.) Others would do something—
what they would do they would not condescend to tell, but
something they would do--while the noble earl stood alone,
and would do nothing. The noble duke, however, found
the Scotch representation to be perfect.
The Duke of WE LLINGTON.—Oh ! I said nothing
about the Scotch representation.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE.—The noble duke
spoke of Scotland as being the most coulees and best go-
verned country.
The Duke of WELLINGTON.—Yes; but I excluded
the represtntation.

The Marquis of LANSDOWNE was glad to hear the
exception. He admitted the superiority of Scotland—the
merit of Edinburgh—and the enterprise of Glasgow, whose
steam-vessels covered the Clyde.

. Lord KLLENBOBOUGH made some observation
across the house, but what it was we could not collect. It
appeared to be some intimation, that even those steam.
vessels now praised were to have been the subject of taxation.
The Marquis of LANSDOWNE resumed. The noble
lord, it appeared, merely desired to add a supplement to the
noble Lord's (Dudley and Ward's) statement respecting the
financial measures of the ministers. (Hear, and a laugh.)
But with respect to Scotland, would any one tell him that
its eminence resulted from the existence of superiorities ?
(Hear, hear, hear.) Noble lords had expressed alum at
the extension of popular representation, and one noble
lord had, on a fonner evening, selected the instances of
Dublin and Liverpool, in confirmation of the apprehension.
The Noble Lord had the misfortune to select these two In-
stances, but what was the fact ? The corruption in these in.
stances bad been brought to light, but it was proved that the
corruption attached to the freemen of Dublin and Liverpool,
which it was the object of this Bill to deprive of the power
they abused, by giving the elective franchise to house.
holders. (Hear.) [Lord Hsrrowby said across the table
some of the freeholders also were corrupt.] He to
assure the Noble Lord that in Liverpool the corrubpriwas
all with the freemen. There was something curious is
the circumstances of Liverpool respecting the franchise.
Almost all of the most respectable householders were ex-
cluded from voting. Of 2,400 householders qualified to
serve on juries, only 60 were electors.—(Heat, hear.) Mr.
Itosco's sons had not votes, but his gardener bad_(hear,
hear). Was he to be told in defence of such a system,
that his sons were liable to be guilty of corruption, but his
gardener was not ?—(hear, hear.) The noble earl had
blamed the framers of the measure, for not having suelci.
'tidy attended to what might be called its conjectural one.
, and argued that the new constituency created by the
rcelg
wou
ld put an end to taxation and the payment of the na-
tional debt. He wished the noble earl to consider who the
101. householders were. He held in his hand a paper which
would illustrate what would be the state of the constituency
under the bill. It was a return of the number of accounts kept
at die bank fur the payment of dividends, by which it ap-
peared that the whole number was 274,823, of which 264,01911
were less than 2001. a year. He would ask was there not a
probability almost amounting to a certainty that these
264,668 fundholders would compose a great portion of that
constituency ? (Hear.) What then became of the ergs-
ment that they would say to their representatives, "you may
do what you will in all other matters, but take especial can
that our dividends are not paid." (Great cheering and laugh.
ter.) It' we. just as if the noble earl, in the management
of his piivate affairs, was to say to his agent, you may do
what you will with my estate so that you take care that no
tents are paid. (Continued laughter.) The noble duke said
the 101. electoreiwould be. open to corruption ; but he
forgot that all housekeepers were Included above IUL so that
there would be housekeepers of 10,0001. as well as of 101.—
[The Duke of Wellington said the term he used was com.
hination.] There would be no greater facilities under the
Bill for combinations amongst 101. householders than
amongst the electors at present ; in most of the towns the
majority of the electors would be householders above 101.—
The noble duke had described the rise and history of the
*nand for reform, the greatest part of which he attributed
le the events that took place in France io the month
of July. He disputed that position. (Hear.) The desire
for :dorm was growing for many years, even long before
the American war, and it had ever since been acquiring
steingth. (Hear.) It was in the nature of things that such
la feeling should not make progress with perfect rep=
but that it should advance by slow, uncertain, and
degrees. Bacon bad well said of men and things they
were irregularly towards their places, but regularly
when in their places (hear, hear.) What their attention
ought to be called to, as Statesmen, was the
of opinion and feeling. When it was said the &Mite
reform erase from the events of July in France, it me
only saying the danger was not in the gunpowdie, bat
in the match (Hear, hear.) When the danger was issolos•
ing for years, and always ready to be called into seeleity,
there would be w Wet! but in removing the cause. (User.)
To the real principle of the bill every noble lord opposite
bad more or less implied assent. He should abstain from
entering into the details, though it was the policy of the
other side to avoid the principle. The principle of the bill
was the extinction of nomination boroughs—the extension
of political influence to the middle classes, and to glee
the right of voting in counties to every landholdee,
instead of confining it to one class. These were the prin-
ciples of the bill, all the rest were details, on which he was
confident it was as much the wish of his noble friend as It
was his own, that their lordships should exercise their un-
doubted right of deliberation. If he could have supposed
his noble friend capable of wishing to deny to that hoax
the full exercise of their privileges, he should not fail to ex.
press his difference of opinion, first .in private, and, if ne-
cessary, in public. (Hear, hear.) Because, though he did
not wish that house to possess the power of corrupting the
other house of parliament, he would contend for the rilb
leges derived from their ancestors of calmly and deliberately
diaeussing and deciding on every measure of legislation
before it should become the law of the land. (Hear.) In ad.
&don to the other objections to the measure it was said it
would affect the future existence of their lordships' house.
Dot when they ehould pass the bill into a law, notwithstanding
the assumption of the noble lord, there would be no one
tonstitutional privilege attached to that house deteribed by
any lawyer, or claimed- by any outdoes, that 'meld not
remain in full vigour. (Hear.) That house would only be
deprived by the bill of a corrupt share in the abuses of the
other house ;of Parliament. (Hear.) . It was asked, what
would that house do when in collision with the other
house ? He would say, they should stand on the
strength of public opinion, which they would find a much
safer support than the weakness of corruption. Those who
asked this question supposed that the public opinion might be
opposed to what the wisdom of their Lordships might deem
public policy ; but if they were unsafe in supporting their
opinions in that house, was it in the rotten outworks of
(*Eton and Old Sarum they wirtild find security ? (Great
cheering.) Did not the people see through the flimsy
guise that sought to conceal dependence on corruption.—
( Hear.) It was from that constitution that lived in the
hearts of the people--it was in the exercise of those coned.
tutional privileges that the people revered, that their lord-
ships derived the power to maintain their opinions, but not
from a system founded on the evasion of law—the violation
of justice and liberty. (Hear, hear.) That was not a sys.
tern on which noble lords ought to trust for the preservation
of their privileges. His hope was to transmit to posterity,
for the benefit of the public, those honours and privileges
be inherited from his ancestors, as useful is the state of society
in which we live for the preservation of liberty and property.
Re hopedibe need net add that it was far from being his with
that their Lordships, in the decision they should ears to,
should be isflueneed by threats:—if throats were rarta
would be treated with disdain g. but their 414111110
be was confident would not be tassisbaiVlimmi fir
the opinions and f the potpie. (
They had by useful taproom' the gog=solsa

knowledge of the country; and they would not refuse to
their own posterity the privileges themselves enjoyed. (Hear,
bear. After having opened so many new streams of thought
and feeling, he would not believe that they would seek to
confine than in narrower channels than before; but rather
that they would prepare for that diffusion of knowledge and
industry, which it we, the policy of their lordships to incor-
porate with the free Institution of the country.—(The no.
We lord sat down amidst the loudest cheering.)
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said the noble
marquis had called on him to propose a nostrum. He
did not understand that call. He did not pretend to the
talents of the noble marquis but thought he was entitled
to state his opinion on that Important measure. He had
listened with great attention to the noble marquis, but
did not think he had answered one single syllable of what
was said at his side of the house. The noble earl In his
able speech tore the bill to pieces, and the noble marquis
had not been able to put it together again. (Laughter.)
The noble marquis, at the close of his speech, bad at.
tempted to make a defence for the noble earl, by saying
the bill might be discussed in the committee; but it
was to be recollected that the noble earl said, that
he would stand or fill by the bill, or something as ef-
fective as the bill ; and what could be as effective as the bill
but the bill itself? ( a laugh.) He would not go into the
details of the bill—that had been done unanswerably. He
thought that the bill was unjust, unconstitutional, and un-
principled. It was unjust, because it robbed men of their
vested rights; it was unconstitutional because it subverted
every institution of the country ; and it was unprincipled be-
cause if noble lords followed the course of the debates in the
other house, they would find its object was to make Whig.
gism supreme in the country. If they bad attended to what
was stated respecting the counties of Northumberland, Dur-
ham, and Cumberland, they would see where the Influence
was placed. He would mention what occurred to him-
self. The non-resident freemen of Durham were of course
prohibited voting by the bill, unless they resided within 7
miles ; now all the freemen of a noble lord in the ministry
resided within 7 miles ; but all his freemen were nine miles
distant.—(Loud laughter.) When the noble earl talked of
the wisdom of concession, and the necessity of conceding in
time, he should remember what be had said on the Catholic
Question; he said if they had conceded in time the mis-
chiefs would not arise, and that his opinion was, the whole
should be given at once. Did he now give the whole to the
Radicals ? Was there not universal suffrage and vote by
ballot behind ?—Cries of No, no, from the ministerial
benches.) He might depend when the Radicals establish
themselves in power, they must have both—(hear, hear.)
The Irish did not say one word now about the repeal of the
Union—they were too ingenious; but when the bill was
passed they would demand it—(hear). The bill was nothing
more nor less than delivering over that country to the power
of the Catholics. By the 104 qualification the lowest Ca-
tholics would become voters and return 72 members to the
other House of Parliament. This was of vital importance
to the Protestant interest, and he felt it strongly as an Irish-
man. The noble earl disclaimed making peers to incrense
his power in that house in a strain that did him infinite
honour • but he thought it unconstitutional that individuals
who voted for the bill in the other House of Parliament,
should vote for it again in that house; and he appealed to
their honour and feeling whether they would be doing their
duty by giving a double vote. He hailed what fell from
the noble earl, and hoped the Lord Grey, who stood up for
his order in that house, would not turn ba_elk and become
worse than Charles Grey the reformer. (Much laughter.)
This country had passed through many dangers by the
effusion of blood and expenditure of treasure ; but still it
was the same England ; and Goo forbid they should risk
Ice safety by such a measure as the present. The Noble
Earl, when he spoke of the measure before it was intro-
duced, said It would be moderate; but he had lost his
moderation, and was surrounded by radical reformers.—
The King's name should not be introduced, because he
could give no opinion till it was presented to him for his
acceptance. When they united the King's name with
Radical Reform, they assailed the vitals of the Constitution;
and they finished by bringing in a Bill that would over-
throw the Constitution, as Neckar had done in France,
by concession, which brought Louis to the
Happily we had ;then a George the Third, and a
Pitt, who saved the country. (Hear hear, Jaen.)
Would the Noble Earl become the Neckar of England, and
rally all the democracy of the country in the support of his
government, He was sure that he would not. He offered
his humble. but earnest prayer to Ministers, to weigh well
the course they were pursuing. Though the Noble Lord
deprecated menace—was there no menace in saying he would
stand or fall by the bill ; and in his caution to the bench of
Bishops ? How dare be doubt that the Rev. Bench would
not act from a sense of honour and duty. Foe himself be
would give his decided vote against the bill, in the certainty
that be was supporting the cause of the people—et the
country—and his GOD. (Hear.)
Lord Goderich and Lord Melrose rose at the same ma
meat, and each were loudly called for by their respective
sides of the House.

The Duke of RICHMOND rose and put it to the can-
dour the House, whether it was not right that both sides
should be heard. He thought, when a measure of such im-
portance was before the House, they should allow one of the
responsible advisers of the measure to be beard. (Hear.)
Lord DIRLROSH gave way.
Lord GODRRICH said be bad abstained from all inci-
dental discussion, because be concurred in what appeared to
be the unanimous feeling of the house, that the bill should
be discussed with calmness and deliberation. (Hear. hear.)
If be had the feelings of a man, it was impossible that he
should not wish to be beard after what the noble earl had
said last night, that those who bad brought forward the
measure had been guilty of a crime of which be might be
doomed to pay the penalty. He did not plead guilty to that
charge. (Hear, hear.) In endeavouring to settle a great
question, long in a succor agitation, he felt that be had dupe
nothing tom disgrace himself—nothing inconsistent with Mu
duty as aor a peer of parliament. (Hear, hew.)
The noble earl charged on those who brought forward she.
measure all the excitement that existed, and said, bet for
them it would be a transient feeling. If that were a just
statement they might be charged with the crime imputed,
but be bad formed a most erroneous opinion who thought
the delay of a few months could have changed the public
feeling. (Hear.) The feeling had been growing upwards
of fifty years, and bad even then been introduced into the
House of Commons without much disfavour.--ARer that,
events occurred which rendered men indisposed to change.
It was a question which, from its nature, though it might
slumber, could not sleep, and there was something in
men's minds that made its extinction impossible. (Hear.)
The French Revolution made it unpopular, bat circum-
stances occurred, that brought this country into a state that
was unnatural, and in the midst of the glories that wets
completed by the triumph of Waterloo, there were alarm.
ing
.symptoms of the instability of the state of things pre.
duced by the long war in which we had been sap gth.
There was not a single interest in the country that did ass
feel recurring depression. He did not say that the consieska
was just, that all this was owing to the videos sepesseata.
don of the people in the House of Commons. He considered
it a libel to say that the Constitution ear osier that
vicious representation was not capable at ellisetleg great
good ; but it was not woodeefol that masses of the people
who suffered from changes end semen should loskifor the
cause in that state of the nprosensades. When came
men naturally expected many of ssridt the war
had deprived them. That preyed raja a thistaken ever.
taboo. The quad's of memo bed 4 jotobameter all the
elements of progression, and boot :Iva egabliag that it had
gro
wn to an importance that all must be dealt with,
and not in the way of perpetual rejection. Had nothing
occurred with regard to the question itself, calculated to
increase that impression ? In former times the moo.
moos practice of buying and selling seats in the House
of Commons was unknown. The first mention of it was
in a letter of Lord Chesterfield's and then it was
covered with !Unfair ; but as length it was avowed, and
became as notorious as the sun at nooo.day, and defended
as the beat mode of bringing independent men into Par-
liament, and he had head it latWd as the best part of the
representative system,which it was their duty to support for
the preservation of the constitution,and especially the House
of Peers. But an Act of Parliament was passed in which it
was declared to be inameistout with the law and constitution I
of England. Good UoD, shalt had been so described by a
solemn dklaration of the legislature; and it was notorious that
it was still persisted in. Was it possible that the people
could remain in a state of contentment ands:such a system?
The noble Ibrd proceeded to say, that it might be said dial
tbe people of England could not judge ; bet the tr,
would judge, and they would assert their holing
whatever was In practice ought to be decided by virtue.—
Tbe noble Ned went on so theists, that ail the
the bill es and pudie. He did not to:sP=
N!
wrimpshuss.sepseted Worlds.' maid be signed, that they
1,6101114111111111/ say polodple—it was Deeemegy to
I". Nee 1= SO bf dim adidasi that is bad
bees NY lo Ibis shoy bad tabos popolados, aad dot
Noe Mew& a that memo doubles 1111.11suposemados,

but be denied that they had taken populadon alone for
data, for they had coupled it with taxation, reckoning ocu:
sawed taxes. He could not conceive by what other rule nut
could proceed. He knew that it might be said it wad I,
advantage to have the younger branches, the sons of
initiated in the subtleties of politics in other plscca, but thr
system had been carried to extremity; and he procretki
mention mound's—Cumberland, York, Lancashire, -

•
. .
mud edhire.4lise had been for a long time r 'and L.
epresented hp
the aline eese
citeihsinst the
ap:efetheywhnoowhehadld thien
coinnatlleenmplaotivoern
vgl.
piths (hers)—and whatever might be urged 0:-,
doe eostrary, et interest of the colonies and others b,in •
nesleeted, he entertained no doubt that representatne;
of talents he all interests would easily find their way ht,
Cb
the house as representatives of towns or boroughs. (11,;,,.)
We bad been told that the measure was something vt:v
shocking, but he would ask them what wu the practice they
sought to remove—if it was not that it had been the cult„ 1
to give every freeman something for voting. The noble
lord here recounted an anecdote when he had endeavoured
to negotiate an election for a friend, and because he refust.l
to pay this description of offence his election seemed doubt.
ful, and he retired without an attempt. They had bets
taunted with the measure being a revolutionary measure, eel
it had been said that the noble earl who introduced the hi:;
had wished to make himself a Neeku t he hoped not ; but
let those who referred to the French revolution recollect shy.
had led to it. Those who said that it was owing to any a(:
of Neckar's must be grossly ignorant of the French—there-
volution of France had originated in a degraded nobility mil
an enslaved people. (Cheers.) If they referred to history
they would find that institutions had always conformed t,,
times. The noble lord concluded with declaring that the
bill should have his most ample support, and that in iz
doing he had acted upon mature deliberation to serve the
country that be loved.

Lord HA DDINGTON believed that a desire for reform
had long been stifled in the public mind, but he also be.
lieved that the main excitement had been occasioned by the
introduction of the present measure. Those who had ob.
jected to the second reading of the bill Ind been denounced
as being hostile to all reform, and upon the same principle
it might be said that Radical Reformers would object to
the bill, because it was not enough. Last night they had
been taunted with being no Reformers, bit that night they
bad been taunted with something different—they had been
taunted with being all Reformers. He said that they
were all ready to acknowledge that some Reform was ne.
' cessary, but then it must be something within the bounds
of the Constitution, and which this bill did not provide ;
it was a mischievous measure. It had been urged as a ne.
camity for the extension of representation, that the people
had increased, and yet the first provision of the bill was the
disfranchisement of boroughs. The noble lord went into a
long disquisition to prove that the avowed data had not
been adhered to in apportioning the number of represer.
tethers to the number of constituents, and alluded to the
spirit which was gaining ground in the oountry,who would,
like Birmingham, perhaps refuse to pay taxes. The noble
lord, atter entering at great length on the general prineiplei
of the bill, of which he expressed in strong terms his disap.
proval, said that those on his side of the house had been
taunted because they had brought forward no measure of
reform of their own, but said although they bad not dune so,
they were satisfied that some change was necessary, as
they could not long go on as they were doing; yet they
could not sanction so sweeping a measure as that pc°.
posed. After alluding to the declared opinions of Mr.
Canning on the subject of reform in the representation, the
noble earl animadverted on the vote given by Mr. Hut.
Meson, who said he should remain an enemy to reform In
Parliament on a general and theoretical plan, which would
either substitute the evils of democracy of despotism.—
The noble earl concurred in these opinions, and passing
events more sad more strongly rivetted them on his mind.
(Dear, hear.) Of all the delusions which able and ex.
perienced men ever allowed to be practised on themselves
the present was the most enormous; there was no final
resting place to the measure ; the ten-pounders which had
been admitted to'the rights of franchise would prevent that
until the Monarchy and all the settled institutions of the
country were destroyed. He never could forget the im.
pression which was made by the production of the present
BR • be was sure that Tory, Ultra Tory, Whig, and Ra.
dial, were equally dissatisfied ; he had met with very few
of them who were satisfied with it, even amongst those
who were in the habit of supporting Ministers. Noble
Lords ought to let the matter stand over. He sou
certain that the speeches in another place as well
as the speeches of Noble Lords themselves, wadi
soldsfy, the great body of the public that the measure
ought not to pass; as .for radical reformers, he could tx
satisfy them.—(Hear.) The Noble Earl then alluded to
the concessions made by Charles I. who gave all pores
into the House of Commons, and declared that it should
never be dissolved. The Noble Earl bad said that the pre.
sent Bill would leave all the established Institutions of the
country undisturbed, that it only struck at 1101311011iOL
boroughs. He (Earl Haddington) believed that their Lore,
ships' house would stand as securely in the absence of noeui.
nation boroughs as during their existence; but the Bill was
not content with sweeping these away, it contemplated
greater changes, and for that reason be could not give it his
support—(Hear.) If this Bill should be rejected by thee
Lordiships, be hoped in Ocin that the Noble Earl at the
head of the government would not adopt any hasty mea-
sures (Rear.) He had been uniformly a supporter of the
Noble Earl; but he could not sacrifice what he considered
to be the best interests of the counny, and the constitution
itself, for the sake of sup that Noble Earl. His
consolation was in the se rnse and moderation of the
people of England, an in the interposition of that Divine
aing
Power who would not forget his people, if they did not forget
themselves. (Hear.)
Lord RADNOR said he really could not gather from the
ailments of the speech of the noble earl whether he was foe
a against It; he bad quoted speeches of Mr. Canning
marl Mr. Banknotes, spigot particular modes of reform, but
the noble earl had not informed the house what sort of re-
do= be should approve of. He complained that all the
speitibes which had been made were Committee vetches, going
into details upon minor points, and yet noble lords objected to
din bill going into Committee. Certain noble lords bad
elgiesned themselves in favour of the principle of reform:
yet they said they should vote against the present bill before
it was mat halo committee, where its principles of reform
could only Pe fairly understood. He contended that the
gain number of petitions from all parts of the country in
Amor aired= was inenntrovertible proof that the measure
was popular. (Hear, bear.) The noble lord wenn to
est that an reformers were net to be saddled wills the
Medina el the car try On the contrary, it no a
graery with $m if these di wen not altogether oca
. lined by tale absence of retrieve. (Hear.) Mae use ens
tore of habit, sad adverse to the grievance of cheer i bet
when 'greater noes from want of champ, any Er
an would adopt the fanner, ems is meow 01
private laimost-41 Amu. every thing was dwells. mead
as 4 leatitistloos *be changing; the Woes et the Po*
were changing; theist" to contend against at
to coated against a prin4le of natnemi4measirie-1 The
great change which Mid taken place, and the butentim
to that change, now required their Lerehip is take s
desperate jump—he ought not to say desperate, fee he m
very willing to tabs it; but some great moo= was nem.
eery to merespend with the poem slats of dig& tall
bode "posies had said, that tide messoritioall stet mthil
that Eadial Idslum6 The Radical BD
themeless midday were with it (No). Well dall Or
Radical liehmen bad not petitioned aping b. Mc DO'
but bed net mil be was itisuithisi 'Was meassm. lie.
` ' sodded with ft, bat the TAO,.
wernaLsHomr, We, boa) Pak* bed now iir°r
everye bed Impoweed. The mils led then doectedag
the Noose to a beer he bad received Ass 1
Maass "wades is Manhole; wies chewed es sled
beaming and ink with the seines, as thew do
bad received the baulk of &Weal edesetioas, mitigall
that their Wilshire alight as easily proem thsmedow PI"
lag older, es perms such pimple as this opmetivedses ft!
amble& swam se later, desk jam eights.
_(am) P
mood dist Nib beds would suppers dm MI, to
those ealmaides which might otherwise mese ; be V:
Ptak cordially gave the meanie hi.susiuffet.
Nail at HADDINGTON ea
Tim debate was then adjourned at Q7lPelt OW "WI.
till font o'clock this day.
HOUSE OF COMMONS. _

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oboe BID&
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41171=9 Preying Ihee dte yeeessary helang
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viii they
Mee a few words fees Mr. Coompsee, Sir B. Dire°2s'