Star.
London, England, 1822-05-16 00:00:00


were thousands in those districts who did not sow
more than half an acre of ground, which constit
the only support of the peasant, his wife, and six or
seven children. Potatoes and water were his only
food, for seldom could he taste the luxury of a little
milk. And though he was employed during the
year, his hire wislittle more than suffiCient to pay
she rent of his garden and the grass of a cow, shoul
he be'torturiate enough to have one, which seldom
happened. To speak of educating his family was out
of the qtiestion, however anxious he might be to ails'
ford'them that benefit. His utmost industry would
not leave him, at the close of the year, more than
10s. to clothe his wife and family. What part of the
most distressed country in Europe, much less of Eng.
land, was in so miserable a condition? He concur-
red in the opinion of those who said that these evils
were in a great measure attributable to the resident
gentry and absentee proprietors. They, he believed,
could do much to alleviate the sufferings of the un-
happy peasantry of that country. He was sorry to
hear the Attorney-General for Ireland say, that he
was not yet decided whether any measure could be
brought forward to make the tithe system less op-
pressive, as it was impossible to expect any permanent
tranquillity until that question was settled.
Mr. D. BROWN said a few words in support of
the prayer of the Petition.
After a few further remarks from Mr. CURTEIS,
Mr. S. COOPER, Mr. GOULBURN, and Sir JOHN NEW-
PORT, the Petition was read and ordered to be printed.
CIVIL LIST—(THIRD CLASS).
Mr. LENNARD said he rose, pursuant to the no-
. tice which he had given some time ago, to move for,
a Select Committee to inquire into the expenses of
the Civil List (Third Class). Alter having made
some general observations and statements, he should
leave the motion with the House. There was now 1
considerable distress in the country; it affected all,
classes; and he submitted, with others, that relief
could only be obtained by economy and retrench-
ment. If there were not such economy and retrench-,
tent, he knew not how public credit could be main-
tained. As then it became necessary to effect every
possible saving, he knew no branch of their expendi-
ture where economy might be so advantageously
exerted as in curtailing the extravagant expenses of
the Civil List If his positions respecting the distress
of the country and the extravagant mature of the
Ci-
'it List expenditure were conceded, he was justified
in calling on the House to adopt the most searching
economy. Since he first gave notice of his intention
ED bring this subject before the House, there had been
some reductions in the Civil List expenditure, parti-
cularly in that class which embraced the-personal
expenses of his Majesty, and of ten per cent. on the
expenditure of the third class, to which he desired
more especially to direct the observation of the House.
But the expenditure was susceptible of a greater re-
duction than that of ten per cent. on the salaries. He
admitted that it was requisite to maintain a certain
degree of dignity and pomp ; but be thought there
might be retrenchment without affecting the becom-
ing dignity of the Crown and the country, on what
some called " the necessary influence of the Throne."
As far as the personal expenses of the Sovereign were
concerned, it had been said to him that it might ap-
pear ungracious to require any further reduction, af-
ter the concession that had been made by his Ma-
jesty; and he had concurred in that view a such
portion of the subject, though he did not admit the
force of the remark. For the present he should ab-
stain from bringing that portion of the Civil List
under the consideration of the House; but although
he postponed that division of the Civil List expendi-
ture, he could not avoid expressing the hope that
before another Session arrived the Ministers would
see the necessity of advising still-further reductions
in the department controulling the personal expenses
of the Sovereign, particularly as far as the same con-
cerned pensions, ik.c..ficc. The great distress that af-
flicted the country must have deeply affected his Ma-
jesty's heart ; indeed, the Sovereign, had stated that
fact in different speeches from the Throne; and as
such conviction was impressed on the Royal mind,'
he could net but repeat she hope that the necessity,
of further reduction would be seen .previously to the'
,next Session. And with respect to that class of Civil.
List expenditure to which he should the mole parti-
cularly direct the attention _of_the House, he _trusted;
that to prove the necessity of further reductions, he
should•only have to shew the fact of excessiv expen-
diture. After his Majesty's accession to the Throne,
the speech stated that amstem of econom,y and r
teenchment would be adopted.; but such sinister
communication was soon .followed by the
stating to them, that no relief would result to th
country from .the .economy and retrenchment .fo
which the people had loudly called. They would
however, have an opportunity of _teeing bj the vot
of that night whether the rule with theßouse was tai
be founded on the principle.of the. Royal -speech, ,o 0
.on.the language of Minis.tets.. /lte.existence of :dio:
tress had been admitted, and the.necessity of afford-:
ing relief acknowledged; and therefore many in the
.countly had naturally felt _surprised, that in the ex-
penses of the Officers of State, Ambassadors, &c. they
had not seen .a nearer approach to former expendi-
ture, as well as to what the nation could hear, than
was perceptible in the curtailment ef ten per cent.—
Thendvances in the salaries and allowances ,from
what they were, in 1792 in particular, were required
hy.Mr. Pitt, when he .called for the increase, to be
founded on the change in the value of money, on the
high price of the articles of life, &c. 'Mr. Pitt did
not require the increased allowances with the view of
enabling the servants of the Crown to be more pro-
digal in their expenditure, or to maintain their sta-
tions with increased splendour; he distinctly-grounded
his proposition, and the words were worth remem-
bering now, on the changes inithe value of money,
'and in the prices of, the requisites of life. The object
was, to place them inn situation to meet the increased
:xpenses. The like argument was extended to the
salaries and allowances of Ambassador!. And now
that there had been a favourable alteration in prices,
why were not the salaries and allowances to be re-
duced to what they were when the prices were some-
what similar? The alteration in the value of money,
and in the prices of the articles of life, might not be
.felt abroad so sensibly ; but they did affect the means
of the people to continue to pay the increased allow-
ances. The expenditure on the increased scale could
not be continued without 'reducing the means oT many'
classes of the community still more than they were

gent
character and consequence of the Sovereign,nor.to
i
the interests of the _country ; but that it Wu, n factt
a means by which Ministers obtained venal support.
In answer to his argument that the ulttratioos in the,
currency and prices warranted sod* reduction, and
'that it would be an acceptable relief to the country the
language might be repeated that had been before
used, that such relief would be but, as a drop of
water in the ocean. The Chancelltieof the Beebe-
I quer might again say that such reductions would be
of no immediate advantage to the *unary; but even
if that were not the case, acquiescence in reductions
would have a good moral effect on the country, as it
would shew the people that Ministers were sincere in
the desire expressed in the speeches from the Throne
to effect all possible reductions. It would not be ne-
cessary for him to go into any extended detail of the
Civil List expenditure, nor to advert particularly to
the funds to meet the Civil List expenses. The reve-
nues of the Duchy of Cornwall, that of Lancaster,
&c. however, had been kept back, so that they could
not see under one head what went to meet the Civil
List expenditure. • As to the expenses, those of the
Household might be much diminished, except they
were still willing to idmit wasteful expenditure; and
there might be great deductions in the Pension List.
On looking over that List, it was impo.isible- not to
say that there were many, names in it that it did not
appear to be very regulate to provide for. But in
the third class of the' Civil List—that class that was
so fertile in expense, there was considerable expendi-
ture that was not essentiallo maintain our dignity
and importance abroad. Where was the necessity of
regular Establishments, Setretaries, Etc. at third rate
Courts, which were the mere dependents of the Holy
Alliance ? And where there used to be Charges des
Affaires, now there were Envoys Extraordinary, and.
at twenty times the cost of the Charges des Affaires,
who answered every purpose that was required by the
interests of this country ;—where was the necessity
for such change ? In looking over the List, however,
it was ituposstble not to have the attention attracted
by .a recent and peculiar appointment.--that of the
Envoy Extraosdimuy to Switzerland—(Hear, heat).'
If be succeeded in obtaining the Committee, he
should be able to shew., amongst other things, that,
it was not necessary Switzerland should be raised in
our estimation in,proportion as it fell in consequence;
certainly that it was.not.requisite to have an Arnbas
sador there at a twenty times advanced expense.—
That appointment, however, was characterised by
such peculiar circumstances, that it had been very
properly selected.as the object of a specific motion;
and if the present motion failed, he doubted not that
the other.proposition would.sueceed, supported as it
would be by the perspicuity and ability of his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Wane). He (Mr. Lennart!) should not
further allude to such appointment. He disclaimed
the assistance that he should .derive from mentioning
it, as the case was so .bad. It was an anomaly .as
compared with the other cases.; and if he could not
shew that his motion was warranted, without.requir-
ing the aid of such a bad case, he should think the
Committee ought not to be granted. The objections'
to the present expenditure .of the .Civil List, third
class, were various. He would advett to the.expense
of :that class in 1742, and if there were any differ-
ent:min the pi ices of the articles .of life, and .in the
sank which we held in Europe, that justified an ex-
bense.greater than :that of 1702, those facts would
.shewn. In the grand katal of (expense, as com-
peted with 1792, there was an increase of 150,0)01.
Me had yet to learn.in 'what ourfsituation so differed
as to require .Envoys where there had,only been Re-
sidents. Ile•trusted that the Noble Marquis would
not .be-able to ?persuade Abe klouse of the necessity of
maintaining in Italy—nude:l.3lle controul-of Austria
as it was-three complete establishments. And why
wereasur ;Embassies now mote .numerous, and the
.penonsderming them filling higher, and, of conse-
quently, more•expensive ranks .than .what were ap-
pointed•in 1a2.? in.thatffear the4x pease for,ltaly
.was OW,: it now was if:l*,llo9. The whole -ea-
,pense in that•year .of our,Ambassatior.to .the United
rtes was OM; icitiow.was 47,01,26. our Mi-
MiAtAliS•alblWallge 46400,)1.0‘that.our.Ambassa.
dor was receiving 46(10 a year ,more than was al-
:lowed to the;Prasisientof the IlnitedlStates of me-
.rica—Oosatoties .I,lcar,!)—.There might be some
-down( axguntent statement that large sala-'
./ies.,weteinesessary. in ,Europe, to enable nut.Ambas-
*dots to meet the 4141enslisf of tAlon,archical Courts,;
hut3hat-olid•not apply spa simple,B.epublic like that
el the Suited rio.a e,unt,lor,pare
of the expense of .1:1500041, on•llaeigrand total, as
sompamd meth .it might he said .that we had
inbassadorsat.plaites and.gourts where none wese
haretaforceequislatL-asaMels• to :attend the German.
Diet, to ,reside .at-tbe)Drazils CRuet,
the .other hand, let ;it be 'remembered, that there
wirreplatas so•which Aye. no logger:tent Ambassa-
dors, irs.,for instance, Venice, Roland, ,Genoa, .84c.
Therefore .thee was inothingiin tbeicbeoges to mar-
-rant the ascending .setieS of ostrerstgattee.of which. he
complained, and which he maintaineskin consequeace
of our: impoverished means, Aught AO be reduced to
soxnetbinglikeThsacale of Mit. To justify the pne-
sent ex penditurt, he.thrtqght theiMiuisters were boond
to shew that our means had improved ; that we,had
now an excess as competed withlX92; that QUr in-
terests woulchsuffer without .such,exterasiveexpentet
or that the Ministers Wereitet SUtheitiltly paid at that
period. And if,it "eerie-admitted that Ambassadota•
Ac. were•amply paid.in i , then he thought they
would be reduced to_the:dileointaef acknowledging
that they were-extravagantly paid now.Jie wished to
argue this question temperately ; and he contended
that.great.retiencbment -might be.mode in this divi-
sion of the-expenditure, without injury to any.boqi
except to the Envoys at T.urin aual.Switsterland. To,
maintain our Ambassadots.at foreign Courts in reek
=splendour, be thought would not advance this goon-
Irrin the estimation of other States, Ifer.eveviuist
would.carry them:accounts of aerdlisteesses,
oar dailriactieming. isabilitrtomeirdain "Sipa. 41
expenditure. Yet, notwithstanding these fact=

was much concerned
by Sir Charles Stuart ; but the 18011 atiPlatet.* *mild
not apply in vindication of an allowance similar in
amount to our Ambassador ui He should
not trespass much farther as lb* indulgence Of the
House, but he trusted that he should not be goat with
the argument that such extravagant expenditure was
necessary to support the dignity and influence ad*
Crown. If such argument were urged, be trusted
that it would meet with the Constitutional rebuke
that the like argument -experienced when adduced in
support of the Joint Postmasters--(llear,desr).—An.
other argument againsthim might be, that it was*
competent to them to open the question as they Bad'
made a compact with the Crown on the subject oe
the Ciyil List : certainly not without a Message from
his Majesty, desiring that House to take into consi-
deration the question connected with the Civil List.
But he trusted that no such" argument would be
urged; for E the bargain were not to be broken
under any circumstances, then had that House most
improperly been called of repeatedly to make good
the debts of the Cie' List. Having said thus mach,
he should conclude, and be trusted he bad adduced
sufficient reason to entitle his motion to support. The
rspenseeof the Civil List generally were more than'
the country could bear, and he submitted that great
reductions might be made in the several classes of
expenditure, but more particularly in the Third Class
(Hear, hear).—lbis motion was: •
That a Select Committee be appoinsed to take into coal-
deration the expenditure of the third class of the Civil list, and
to report their opinion whether any, and what saving of expense
might be affected in that class, with a view that such saving
might be carried to the account of the Consolidated Fund, ac-
cording to the provisions of the Act of the 56th of Geo.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that as
he meant to meet the proposition of the Honourable
Member with a direct negative, he would, as shortly
as he could, endeavour to put the House in possession
of the view which he took of the question, and of the
reasons why he thought the House would concur
with him in voting that negative. The Hon. Gen-
tleman had suffered himself to indulge in remarking
upon the whole of the Civil List expenditure, although
he had proposed to confine himself to the particular
branch of the third class. And he had seemed to
take it fur granted, as a thing admitted by that (the
Noble Marquis's) side of the House, that there was
a general want of economy in the administration of
the Civil List expenditure. Now, he should not fol-
low the Hon. Member in his remarks upon this sub-
ject, nor should he have referred to them at all, if he
had not assumed this point. But the Hon. Gentleman
having thought proper to do so, he must claim the
liberty of stating his unqualified dissent from the pro-
position. The Civil Expenditure was, on the con-
trary, administered with every attention to real and
useful economy in all its branches, and for this he
should be prepared to contend whenever called upon
to do so in a regular manner. The Hon. Gentleman
had also alluded to the gracious act of his Majesty in
theearly part of the Session, when his Majesty was
pleased to make a. donation in relief of the difficulties
of the country. But if he supposed that that sacri-
fice did not place the administration of the Civil List
under considerable restrictions, and euforcements of
economy, and that it did not reduce the scale of,
living. in the Royal Establishments below that splen-
dour in which the House generally wished to see the
Crown placed, he was as much deceived as when he
took it for granted that there was an admission on
both sides of the House of a want of economy in the
general adMinistration of the Civil List. Rut as the
motion of the Hon. Gentleman was confined to the
third class of the Civil List, he would also confine
himself to the matter which came under that head.
Yhe Hon. gentleman had taken a distinction between
this third class and the other branches of the Civil
List, and he was willing to admit that there was a
distinction. And he should best economize the time
.of the Zane by calling its attention to the situation
of the whole of the Civil List expenditure, since the
eontraet made with the Crown upon that subject.—
Tbe Noble .Marquis then explained the nature of the
.contract, and the reason why certain heads of the
expenditure had not come within the arrangements.
If they ,compared a series of years of the last reign
with an equal time when the duties to the Crown
were paid, he did net mean the regular duties only,
but certain,hereditary duties which were claimed of
Tight, it would be found that the bargain had sheen.
most advantageous to the Public, and that several
.millions more had been paid on account of these..
than upon all the debts of the Civil List in the period
shrive the contract was formed.• By the new system
under-which the expenditure was placed, everything
came-before them by Estimates, and thus Parliament
exeicised.its controul upon all the beads of expense.
The same wasnbserved with regard to the thirdolass.
—There were five 'heads of the Foreign Civil List,
but three of them only came within the motion of
,the ton. gentleman. The pensions .of.foreign Mi-
nisters, the sums paid to Consuls, and the salaries of
foreign. Ministers. It was always kft•to the Crown
Ftp.*termini what amount of pensions should be
grin according to the importance of missions ; and
-what degree.oirank, as well as what number of mis-
_sions should be appointed—(Hearr, from the °M i•
frirs, reignirefrogg the 'other 844). He would a
ey were.to*hear the novel doctrine that Parliament
.warto be made acquainted with all the foreign po•
licy ofthe Government?—(Cheers). If so, they would
undertake the whole functions of the Executive, If
they expected thet,the Secretary of Statefur Foreign
Again was •to•come there to answer any questions
•that might be put-to him, he had a very different opi:
;lion upon the ,matter. He thought it neither con-
rsistent Atith :the .duty nor the oath of a' Secretary of
.State tacommonicate anything upon the subject of
our foreign policy, without the sanction and orders of
ldaj
hieoiy(f&P). How then was the Hon. Gen-
' tlentoa:.Cou up stairs tU do anything without
• Secretary to answer their questions ? And be cer-
'w did not -think that his Majesty was likely to
-"•ripe,y.of ,State RAW to. the Hiirequtu.
Lot that itwpow-Ativeilliari litita

dot if tile ligkenisitudorat
*to be nanPneds they had
scissions *post this Cattiness
Intie * Committee to ua.
__ year, they *mild have a
Safety is the rent=-I(2eiers). He
manner in %Ask% nucleoli*
Of 1811. a 4gostuo"
Siet4lftines'Wherthiel
\merlca for the eXanspli epos
Atilitartis be otaintaiiied;*
must
roan; agahlat any wab. pi* while this tours,
Rertoisiot4 tine;rglerPrimit of
mast ',Pe* that *la (114"ri,
_„_afa WOO +
culated to prepare the moral -roar and.tne polio
cal swotimvits claw P•Pilt (Or some otkr Peopoo;
tip, and cheap, which were now Item Out of vie*
(041411). Bleattse the country was novistiferin;'
Under temPeptary and partial distress,thiy must f
8,396, send eat their missions to alLtbe courts of Ea:
type iNiprota 'fiver*, awl give *lp #1 that ;mi.:.
deratic of we)gbt and Character so intimately coq;
netted with the ancient Monarchy of the tonntrt.......
He was quite satisfied that our foreign missions ariix
external policy could not go on a day under theta.
istence of such I Committee as the Hon. Gentleman
would have appointed. He was quite willing that
this class of expenditure .should be held to the neces-
sary economy belonging to the times; he should 4
sorry that the Civil List was not subject to that in.
vestigation which was fair to the country. He was
satisfied he tepid show that eser7 attention bad been
paid to reduction in this department. The
Member said, tbiat if they looked into thg expendiane
of the class which his motion embraced, they wonl4
find that it had always increased and never reduced.
Now, if the flan. 4etitlernan had Raid much .atten.
dos to the.aubjeet, he would have found that not to
be the cake. He would shew that reductions hal
taken place not once, nor twice, but in several in-
stances; and these reductions, he was convinced.
would induce Parliament to continue the confidence
which they had hitherto reposed in the Government
upon these matters. tae would proceed to examine
the three heads of expense which the motion em-
braced, and shew what reductions bad been made
o pun them. These three were the Pensions to Foreign
Ministers, Consular Fees, and the Ministers' Salaries
and house-rent. The ,pensions had amounted at one
time to 56,0001. whereas they were afterwards re-
duced to 58,1831. The last war was a war sui gene-
rfs-:-it was Unlike all others in its extent and Lima-
non. It lasted twenty years, and-many Ministers
were necessarily to be employed when it broke out.
Though he did not like to have names brought for-
ward, yet he was not afraid that the list then uron
the table should be examined, for he was convinced
that it would exculpate the Government from any
charge of malversation in the appointments. lie
should say nothing of the Consular Fees, as they were
at this moment under the consideration of the Board
of Trade. The Noble Marquis then referred to a
Report of a Committee upon the civil LiA Expendi-
ture, and shewed that, under most of the heads, there
was a considerable saving from the estimates of thzt
Committee. There was no reduction upon the Pen-
sion List, because the pensions were held by Act of
Parliament for the lives of the persons: the Govern-
ment could not, therefore, interfere with them. Upon
the other heads great savings were effected. The
Extraordinaries were taken-fry the Cominittee at
50,0001. and they had been reduced to 27,U001.-
Thus there was a saving of 23,0001. upon the head of
Extraordinaries. In every year since estimates had
been made out, they had always worked under
them-(Near, hear).-But he knew that it might be
said, why should there be 27,0001. paid for Extraor-
dinaries now, when, in 1792, there was only 6,0001/
This bad occurred to him, and he had looked at the
subject, in order to see if there were not some other
allowances made at that time under a different de-
scription. He had not been able tcruscertain this,
but he found that the great increase of business, and
the manner in which the business was performed at
that time, would account for the difference. He then
proceeded to shew how the £27,000 for Extraordi-
naries was expended. The *es amounted to L 7,800,
and the Post Office charges to £7,800. For couriers
£2,200 was paid. There were couriers employed
under any extraordinary circumstances, when the re-
gular messengers were employed in other duties.
About Mow was expended at Constantinople for
paying the Dragoman and others connected with the
interpretations. There was £2,000 allowed for the
journies of Ministers, and £5OO for extra journies.
This, with .LB,OOO for Chaplains and Secretaries,
amounted to about £26,000 out of ,the .4.27,009.
Upon the Consular.allowances there was also a saving
of ElO,OOO from the Estimates of 1815. It was fixed
at £40,000, but they were now only paid £30,000•
There was a saving upon this whole of £64,000; and
it was upon these services that the Hon. Member
said they never reduced, but always increased. lie
was convinced that the House would require of the
Hon. Member a better case before be would induce
them to violate the cont Act which had been made
with the Crown, by consenting to this motion. With
regard to himself, as far as be was personally in-
volved in the question, he would say, that if he could
not be trusted with the management of the funds of
his office, without suspicion ot abuse, the sooner ano-
ther was found to succeett him the better. He could
assure the Hon. Gentleman that he was not going to
put himself into the leading-strings of a Committee
above stairs-(Heer; hear)..-And as he should never
have the honour of explaining himself to the Hon.
Gentlemen above stairs, neither should he do so there,
anylarther than be deemed consistent with his Par-
liamentary duty. With respect to the number of
missions now kept up, the Hon. Member could not
complain upon. that ground, for they were scarcely
more numerous than in the years 1792 and 1795.
At that time there were Ambassadors, that being the
first class of foreign Ministers, at Frante, Spain, 1101-
land,and Constantinople. In 1812, there were Am-
bassadors at France (not at Spain), at Constantinople,
Russia, and Austria. Had no new features arisen in the
history of the times which warranted the alterations?
'Had Russia not so far increased in political import-
! ance as to require an Ambassador at the Court of Bt.
Petersbursh ? That Court and the Court of Vienna
were also entitled tompect and attention from the
part they had taken in the affairs of Europe. The
situation in which they stood as members of the quin-
tuple- Alliance-(110r, haw, from Sir J. Mackin-
toth).the Holt. Member might say if heari" -but .111-

.' •
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. .
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7edielw tichiga; pony chi . •Ann alaV.l
.riere' , ~,,t,.. 1, salaries bed • - • - • .
~..... 14 . )• lievretild say; ths
not sow driven to a state oihejgary. . , cal , r '.' others quads •i • .• r,., od d proceeding was 1
16 . r ilth
%Stint 4111 nn ..161111110. i•nt •s
On di ''; • - ,'. • •-.; ' ' : . ‘ iii, : .. - give up all their esi"
td six or therefore thi, estlon. was Oaf a expendi. %lit . • salaries, • . , hiv ,•-Ai - 1 •,:1- •. If they vrel*.to 1
InnS
his only toot ought tti centinued, but country Sas* 114 Messengets•tielii7.'...,:!•:, ' ."" ke the Executive this
•
f a link cenbreontiase to par the d ' , _that would be witliout.dilduction• and ...7_•.• -• . 5...-..
~,,e. :Co . mittee of Public Safety
ring the urged ? But if such usability to pay were not to be from •(=bony. The great al '• 'Fr to • •
~ .....
~ —1 d not but see, from the s
to pay feared; tberl'efat await arguiseterialsesur of re. oder in Pant was defended . yoa —-, V .. laughs fonno
v, should 1 duction. Many ae:reed- with him that sorb eztrawi. necessity of giving dhows to English 'tilt ‘• . for u
I seldom 1 aunt eePenditure dad uot contribute to ths personal he could not believe that the interest of the country were told to look to Amer
. _____—... ,s phi snywwWiwn_ nnr tn was much concerned in the iinrolsei of alai* ghat iiiiiiiiiiiisi establisheseigsvi