Star.
London, England, 1830-07-03 00:00:00

TEES OW THE DEMISE OF THE CROWN•

On the motion of Mr. HUAI E, the itirthe;:ourts IderMINI of the
bill respecting the fees on the demise of the Crown, as amended by
the Lords, was ordered to be postponed until that day six months.

COMMITTEE OF SUPPLY.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER having moved the
order of the day for the house to resolve itself into a committee
of suply,
Sir pJ. GRAHA M, in rising to bring forward his motion respect.
ing the four and *half per cent. duties, observed that in the earlier
part of the session he did not intend to oppose ministers ; but
seeing that they had not conducted the public lousiness, either with
credit to themselves, or benefit to the country, he would not assent
to the vote of credit which lie understood they intended to ask this
night. He plainly perceived that they were anxious to dissolve
the great council of the nation, on account of the large minorities
which had lately voted against them. The question of the regency,
in his opinion, should be discussed before the dissolution of parlia-
ment. There was a great absurdity in the course which govern-
ment was about to proceed in. If a demise of the crown should
occur before the meeting of the next parliament, this was the very
parliament, mooch as it was objected to by ministers, which should
meet 'to settle the question of succession ; was it therefore not'
much more advisable to settle the question of regency and the civil
list before the dissolution of parliament, seeing that there were six'
months as yet for that purpose. No doubt the crown had very ex-
tensive influence in that house, and the only counterpoise to that in-
fluence was the voice of the people outside. As the representatives
of the people were accountable to their constituents for their
conduct in that house, was it not proper that, before they were
sent back to them, they should have an opportunity of ex.
pressing their opinions on the two great subjects before mentioned,
and thereby be relieved from making any pledges respecting them
at the hustings. When the civil list should come on he hoped that
a scanty provision would not be made for the crown. That all the
crown lands and other incomes belonging to the crown, should be
taken into consideration, and a proper settlement made. The hon,
member then entered into a history of the four and a half p,r cent.
duties, pointing out the various modes in which they hail been
applied during different reigns. (Hear, hear.) He then cited pas-
sages front authors, defining the prerogative of the crown. If the
exercise of the royal prerogative (observed the honourable member)
was allowed to be discreet in the case of the four and a half per
cent. duties. to what an injurious extent might it not he allowed to
operate? The hon. member then proceeded to state the accidental
manner in which the knowledge of the application of the*,
duties had come to the house, which have already appeared
before the public on former discussions. He then referred to the
case submitted for the opinion of the Attorney-General, and that
officer's answer, which have also already appeared. He then ob
served that ministers had not applied those duties as they were
bound fo do by the Appropriation Act, 6th George IP. These du.
ties, it was laid, had been applied to the support of the West India
chufch establishment; but though it had been stated so officially,*
rumour had reached his ear that 'they were not so applied, and, on
minute inquiry, he found that there were some part of these duties
not accounted for. There was some mystery attending these 41 per
cent, duties, which cost the country 60,0001. The hon. ban. then
entered into a minute calculation respecting these duties, with a
view to point out the mystery attending them. He then observed
that he understood that a considerable expense had been incurred in
repairing Windsor Castle since July last, in anticipation of a grant
which Parliament had since refused without inquiry. He would not
weary the house by going further into detail, but lay before them
I the resolutions which he meant to submit to the consideration of the
houselfa an amendment to the original motion. The hon. baronet
then-proposed a series of resolutions,which were of great length, bUt
the purport of which were not clearly understood in the gallery.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER would not follow
the bon. birofict through the wide field of observation in which hit
' indulged. The subject was confined within very narrow limit*.
Rut the hon. baronet knew he had but a weak case, and therefore be
felt into be necessary to advert to almost every subject calculated to
produde exciteinett in the minds of hon. members, and enlist
their. feelings In his favour. What had the question of Re-
gency or the Civil List to do with the question before the house
The hon. but, said that he saw no intention on the part of the Go.
vernment of following up his (the Chancellor of the Exchequer's)
proposition respecting the Four and a half per cent. sugars, which
were Crown property, which he intended should be charged with
. custom.duty when sold for public use. Where was the justice of the
observations. of the hon. ban. when there was, in fact, a Bill before
the house for perfecting the object which he had in view in this re.
sped ? (Hear.) The honourable baronet had fallen into error no,
apecting the sums received on account of the Four and a half pet
cent. sugars for the year 1828. The produce of those sugars for that
. year left a balance of 7,2001. in the hands of the Bank to be appro.
primed toward's the. Four and a half per cent. Fund, which fund was
tbr the payment of the clergy in the West Indies. The clergy were
in the first instance paid front the Consolidated Fund, to which fund
tlig overplus or balance upoo the Four and a half per cent. sugars
was turnedover for the palpose of relieving it. He thought there
was nothing in the whole transaction to merit the censure of the
hon. baronet; he therefore thought that the House was not in a
condition to support the last resolution of the hon. baronet. (Heal,
hear.)
Mr. HUME would say a few words on the question before the
House. The real question before the House. was this, was it the
intention of Ministers Co ratifythe statement made by the Chancel*
of thee :chequer upon a former occasion,with respect to thekout•arl
half per cent. sugar duties ? That such was their intention ap
front the statement first made by the right hon. gentleman.

• Mr. HUSKISSON would say a few words upon the qtieitlon
'before the tibbei because he thought he had a right to complain
of the. course adopted by ministers respecting the .t per cetn,
sugars. When he wits anisponsible Adviser of the crown, he adrisat
and that advice was acted upon, that those' sitgar* should.ipay Nit
duty. A contrarreourse was subsequently adopted, and thirksugisit
were, by an order fronfthe treasury, admitted duty free. The house
ought to have been informed of this change. Although, those Su,
gars belonged undoubtedly by right to the crown, still'they wire
not intended for the use of his Majesty ; they were meant for sale.—
Those sugars were liable to be re-exported, and the wholcdrawback
obtained— the Exchequer thus paying a large stun of money with-
out receiving vny advantage, by the present order of government,
from thole introduction into this country, The 'public were louts
by this arrangement to the extent of 4).QQA.-,,a year.' There were
no articles imported into this animalp! he use of his Majesty,
duty free. • A small quantity of I,liib:„,,naually sent as a preient to
his Majesty from the Cope of idooa Rope, paid duty ; yet this wine
was generally distributed is Majesty to some of the members
of his Majesty's householir.Ali thought it but right that the funds
in the bank to the isecount'Ufthe 4i per Cents. should be accounted
for. Items right for the Mute to know if 'these balances hart been
properly applied, according to the thh of the late King. This was
the fist time that the prerogative of the Crown was exercised to hies
articles entered duty free. He was glad to hurthat, for the foie%
it was nut the intention of ministers to continue dis ! •
the Ai per cert. sugars duty . •
Sit R. PEEL said that if thora wet any doubt otthe
tiun of the funds arising front ete de pee cem. singer; bb hp
hoe.,rnenthermsould call thiteturns upon the subject; and
•la feel) waMsW beertilytiecond the proposition. There wet,
et* &argot made tiOsiOte 4j pc cent. duties •
••••The CHANCEisk Olt oti the EXCHEQUER, In reply to
•Vharies Wetherell, Who Interrupted •the thert hon. 'butinst,,
that the West India Clergy were paid from the coesolidalett fs
dust the. lieareal. couV
• ; ley INg•

;.«.

~ .....

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balances due upon the 44 per cent. sugar duties being paid over to
that fund. _ 1

....._ ___,....
Sir R. PEEL, in continuance, said that a fortnight ago his
right hon. friend (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) had prem
ce ared a bill upon the subject of the sugars in question, and .he,
Sr R. Peel) told the hon. baronet so. Under those cheamsinnoes
did not expect a hostile motion iti reference to this matter from
the hon. baronet. Ministers would be awkwardly placed, if, after a
confidential communication on a particular aubjeet, they were to be
met by a hostile motion in reference to it.
Mr. Huskisson, Sir J. Graham, Sir R. Peel, and the Chancellor
of the Exchequer, mutually explained.
Mr. MABERLY gave his thanks to the hon. baronet for setting
at rest, by the present motion, a great constitutional question.
Sir C. WETHERELL repeated a legal opinion which he had
given upon the 4; per cent. duties, relative to the pretogative of the
crown in such cases. _ _

Sir J. ORAHA M begged leave, under the circumstances, to
Withdraw his resolutions.

The resolutions were accordingly withdrawn.
SUPPLY.

Upon the motion that the House resolve itself into a Committee'
of Supply,
Lord ALTHORP begged to enter his protest against the course
about to be adopted by Ministers. He contended that it was not
fair towards the nation to proceed in a course of conduct that would
have the effect of bringing Parliament to an immediate dissolution,
ithout the important measures before the House being disposed of.
The SPEAKER having left the Chair,
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said that the
bourse he was adopting upon the present occasion was analogous to
that pursued upon the demise of George the Third. He intended
to ask for a grant of 200,0001. to meet the expenses of the consoli.
dated fund, with respect to annuitants. With respect to other votes
he should only ask for a sum equal to the expenditure of the ensu.
ing three months, which would leave the questibn upon the votes
open to discussion in the new Parliament. In the Appropriation
Act, which he would introduce, the vote of credit should be limited
inspecting the various votes. The right hon. gentleman concluded
y moving, that 200,0001. be granted to his Majesty to liquidate
the various annuities payable by the Consolidated Fund. Upon

HUAIE said that he thought the course proposed by his
Majesty's ministers in the present instance, was the best way to
!enable a new parliament to canvass the various items in the esti-
mates. Although he had no confidence in his Majesty's ministers,
he yet should not oppose the present course; nor did he think he
would be inconsistent in supporting ministers to this extent. Al.
though the Duke of Wellington had gained for himself immortal ho-
nour, by passing the Catholic bill, still he (Mr. Hume) could not
give his unqualified support to the ministry of which the
noble duke was the head. He hoped that the civil list would be
fully sufficient to all the necessary expenses of his Majesty, to
enable him to support the dignity of the throne ; but he hoped
at the same time, that It would be without those items which
were not necessary to the comfort of his majesty, but were solely for
the benefit of persons in no way connected with the maintenance of
the splendour and dignity of the throne. He hoped that the salaries
of the judges, and every other item in the civil list, would come
under the power of parliament. He hoped the question of our
foreign diplomacy would also come under the consideration ofr2d:
ment. The question of pensions, be hoped, would also becons
The civil lists of England, Ireland, and Scotland, ought to be con-
solidated, and the pensions in them should be greatly lessened. He
condemned the mode in which the revenues of Gibraltar were raised
and appropriated. The people of this country were obliged to con-
tribute to the support of Gibraltar, yet the revenues of that place
might be disposed of in any manner in which his majesty thought
proper, for he had a complete controul over it. Let retrenchment
be the order of the day, and let ministers without regard to the ma-
jorities which they may have with them, pursue a liberal course, and
carry along with them the good wishes of the people.
Ur. LENNARD wished to have an account returned of those
revenues of the crown over which Parliament bad no control, The
hon. member then adverted to the civil list, observing that there was
no branch of the public expenditure, at which the country looked
with more jealousy than that of the civil list. The diplomatic ex-
penditure also required serious attention. It was brought forward
in various ways—first in the civil list. and afterwards in different
other shapes.—Thevote was then agreed tb.
On the motion that the sum of 1,126,5541. be granted on account
of the army extraerdinaries, the civil contingencies for England and
Ireland. and the improvements of Windsor Castle,

Mr. S. RICE observed that there were certain provisions in.
eluded in this vote, which were opposed to the recommendations of
the finance committee; he meant the miscellaneotts estimates for
Ireland, which the committee recommended to be always submitted
to the house. The object of the committee in making this rearm.
mendation was to check that system of jobbing which was carried on
so extensively in Ireland. If the estimates were still to be carried on
in the usual mode, the recommendation of the committee was nu;
gatory. He called on those English members, who complained o
the burthen which Ireland imposed on this country, to assist him
in checking the abuses which were practised with respect to those
estimates. If those useless establishments which were supported by
government in Ireland were left to die of themselves, he could
assure the house that they would never cease to exist. The
hon. member mentioned the Charter School establishment, and other
such establishments connected with education, as instances of those
abuses which required to be remedied. He would recommend to
the Chancellor of the Exchequer to withhold all public grants on
account of education in Ireland. He should adopt some plan that
would give general satisfaction; lie meant to all fair and rational
men. He thought that the plan recommended in a report of a
committee of which he (Mr. S. Rice) was Chairman, was such as,
with a few modifications, would give general satisfaction. The
principle of that plan waste, educate Protestants and Catholics in
the same school, without any distinction or preference. , (Met r.)-
There was another item included in this vote, to which he had a
strong objection, as highly injurious to the Irish press; he meant
the Item for Government advertisements, which were exclu.
sleety given to those papers which supported Government,
without reference to the circulation of such journals.. (Hear.)
The item for the maintenance of the Irish Office was of all the moat
objectionable. This office was worse that useleu. The business
of that office could be more satisfactorily transacted at initehall,
together with the business of the Vane Office. The hon. member
then referred to the item for the Record Office, under the superinten.
dance of which he observed were published, an epitome of the worb
of Capt. Rock, along with a pamphlet published by a right hon.
gent. a member of that house, respecting the state of Ireland. Was
it proper that such works should be published at the public ex:
passe? Was it not absurd and ridiculous to have such works handed
down to posterity by the Record Office? With reference to the item foi
public works, he thought that these works should be carried on by
bins, not lent to individuals, but to public bodies. The encourage.
spent of public works in Ireland was not only politic, but profitabli
Jo the revenues of this country. The bon. member then proceeded
to show by calculations, that the customs and revenue bad eons':
derably. increased in consequence of those public works. The hon.
member then referred to the system of Irish juries and sheriffs, ae
elected in the city of Dublin, which he characterised as disgraceful
to the legislature. The tobacco duties were left undisposed of. The
charge against Sir J. Barrington remained as yet in transitu. I
these were not disposed of before the dissolution of parliament, it
would reflect discredit on the legislature.
Lard F. L. GOWER observed that he was highly
of the difficulty which the Secretary for Ireland had in
arranging in his office the different details of the Irish estimates, at
the same time he could not agree in the expediency of submitting
these estimates to the regulations recommended by the flon.Blember
foe Limerick. The Noble Lord thersproceeded to say that consi-
derable reductions had been made in: the public establishment I,
Ireland since the Finance Committee• had sat. With reference
the Government Proclamations, he denied that Government had .
embed any partiality lii sending those proclamations to Newspapers.'
Whatever might be the system formerly in that respect, he knewl
nothing of it since he had come into office. He considered an by
Office In London absolutely necessary, and therefore could not ,
in the censure cast on that office by the Honourable Gentleman.
Mn BROUGHAM obierved that the prospect of Members goin‘
back speedily to their constituents, casts very important question.
in the shade, and though, front viewing the proceedings of lain
night, he had little hopes of obtaining any thing like a substantial
support, still he should again afford members an opportunity of ins
nifesting their sense on a subject now before the House. Among ..
itemsineleded in the vote now before their consideration were thou
for Windsor Castle and the Rideau: Canal, on both of which these
'was a great difference of opinion. The honourable and learned
member then observed that a strong opposition had been heretofore
manifested in the House against any further sum for these two -*
jeers ; eleven hundred thousand pounds were now called open on a..
count far these two objects among others. If hereafter any question
should arise respecting the expense of these, ministers might say
that you have voted the mono 1 for these, and how now can you
object to the expense ? Fort is and other reasons he should opplie
the vote without an inquiry. The house was called on by a vote
like this to enable the minister to dissolve the Parliament without
adopting any security for the peace of the maims. He would '—
e
the house that if Parliament was dissolved without emnia
to see
resolution on thereat guiltless which had been su to thee,questions involving the wittily of the crown, the r y 'gate ails.
stitution, and the re of the empire, they, and •isot miasmic",
should be reit for the consequeams. •
31r.-MAII IX observed, that the bouse,'res a former -
Sleeideds that they would not discuss the regisktor civil list
Ideas iu'rkis ion...(Cries of nor no ! aad'lteer,' hrer.) If
isoald brit diocese these two gantlet* littilid not see how
Ildliectiss the estimates, /cc. For these ''reittor.s he shotild
' the vote before the house. Air sheatbiiinit ISH. imams a
—tom Ink !. 0. {u PPP% gieIIgteMSAVIVK
, ... . .

n trs, he could not expect of them to do so now, and as he was ea.
defied that If each particular item was now dimmed, ministers
Would have majorities, he thought they might as well have all at
once, and consequently be should support the vote.
Sir R. PEEL observed that, as the house had agreed to an ad.
dress which assured the crown as
they would mince a temporary
provision for the public service, he did not see with what propriety
they could now retract the terms of that address, and tell the crown
that they would not make a temporary provision, and that they
would urge the consideration of the regency question. Would such
conduct raise the house in the estimation of the country? Surely
the minority should yield to the sense of the majority. He thought
that those who felt disposed to oppose the government should be
better satisfied with the present mode of making the provision, than
by voting each particular item separately, for it would compel Go.
torment to call parliament together early, to whom they would be
inalterable for the mode in which they expended the grant.
Lord ALTHORP felt called upon to enter his protest against
this lumping manner, and wished to be understood as not giving it
any species of support.
Mr. HUSHISSON thought it was injudicious not to take some
steps relating to a Regency, should any calamity require such a pro.
vision. The course taken by ministers came upon him by surprise
on Wednesday ; but upon consideration, he was convinced they
should not separate without making some provision for the se-
curity of the regal department of the government. As to the
vote of credit, he did not so much object to it, although it was a
most anomalous proceeding, which his thought a bed precedent.
It was to him a matter of regret that the business of the house should
be so backward; but this he attributed to the want of any sufficient
influence on the the part of ther vernment.
Sir It. PEEL said he th tit a strange complaint that Go.
vernment had not sufficient t fiuence in the deliberations of the
house of commons. He did not expect or hope to see that house
very tractable to the views of ministers.
Sir H. VYVYAN thought it would be indecent to discuss the
question of regency, except recommended from the throne, or under
some overruling necessity. There was one point upon which he
wished to have an explicit answer, namely, whether this government
had taken any share in supporting the administration of Prince
Polignac ?
Sir R. PEEL hoped it was not believed by any thinking person
in the country, that ministers had taken any part in the internal po.
Hey of France. He could assure the bones that they had done no
such thing.
Mr. R. GRANT said that he should on Monday next move an
address to the crown on the subject of a Regency.
Mr. BROUGHAM suggested Tuesday as a better' day, and he
should willingly postpone a motion of his which stood for that day,
to On way for such motion.
r. R. GRANT then fixed Tuesday for bringing forward the
question of Regency.
Mr. LENNARD opposed the motion.
Sir R. WILSON wished to know from the Attorney-General
whether he had abandoned the law of libel bill ?
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL said he should bring it forward
as soon as he could, but he could not undertake to get it passed.
Mr. HUME thought It a disgrace to the government to attempt
to impose additional restrictions on the press.
Mr. H. GRATTAN protested against the increase of duty on
Irish newspapers.
M. O'CONNELL could not allow the vote to pass without pro-
testing against most of the Irish estimates, particularly the money
voted for education, which was applied to laity purposes.
Mr. TRANT thought the grant foe the College of Maynooth
more objectionable.
The resolution was then agreed to without a division.
£1170,690 for the Irish militia and out pensions, was then voted
without any discussion.
The House resumed, and the report was ordered to be brought
up this day.

WAYS AND WEANS.
The House resolved itself into a Committee of Ways and
when

£1,500,000 was granted to his Majesty out of the Consolidated
Fund.

After a few words from Mr. HUME, the report was ordered to be
brought up on Monday next.
The House then resumed, and on the motion of the ATTORWiIt.
OKNERAL, the House went into Committee on the Administration
of Justice Bill. Mr. Hos= moved that the salaries of the Judges
be reduced from 6,0001. to 4,0001. Mr. JoxEs objected to discus-
sion at that late hour, and moved the re.eommital that day 6 months.
The gallery was then cleared, but no division took place.
Mr. JONES then moved an adjournment.
After a few words from Mr. Baotroer►x and other Members,
the amendment was put and negatived. The House then went Into
Committee, various clauses were agreed to, and the Committee ob-
tained leave to sit again on Monday.
The other Orders of the Day were then disposed of, and the
House adjourned at Three o'Clock.