Star.
London, England, 1824-03-10 00:00:00

IRISH ScnooLs.

-~ ,

Mr. GRATTAN presented a Petition, signed by the
Primate, Catholic Bishops, and, Catholic inhabitants of •
Dublin, complaining of the misippt opriation. of certain
Nails for the education of Catholic-children. The Hon.
Member stated that the
,com plaints of the Petitioners
were well worthy of the serious attention of the (louse.
They were excluded, he said, from all direction or con-
, traul of the Societies and institutions within their dio-
,
cese ; and the schools for the education of Cath-ac-chil-
.
dren were ionduCted 'by those who Were totally-
opposed
to them in 'religious opinions. In some Societies, whose
funds exceeded half a million, and to •which the Catho-
lics mainly contributed, they had no share oribterest,
and they were totally excluded from all participation
in the funds of the Society for the Suppression of Vice.
He eat nestly wishedthat the Petition should be referred
to the Committee on Education, or if this were objected
to, be hoped the subject would be introduced in some
other shape before the House.
Mr. GOULDURN expressed hi dissent from the
prayer of the Petition, the object of which. was tosreate
a separate establishment for the Catholic poor of Ire-
land. It was not many years since Parliament sanc-
tioned a recommendation for the eitablishment of
schools in which people of different persuasions should
be educated, and thereby to promote ultimate union.
The object of the honourable Gentleman was opposed
to this principle of conciliation, for he wished to edu-
cate those of different persuasions in different semina-.
ries—( Hear from Mr. Grattan).—This certainly was
the object of the Petition. As to the other topics it
embraced, he had no doubt that when they were exa-
mined, they would be found to be without foundation.
The only restriction imposed by Government in the
schools was the reading of the Scriptures ; but this was
done without note or comment. He believed that no
conscientious Roman Catholic would say tkat this was
an improper course. It could not be pretended that'
the Roman Catholics were backward in availink them-
selves of the schools. If it were, the number in the re-
turns laid before the House, and the. condition of
the.coontxy before and after their establishment would
prove the contrary. In the proyince of Munster, the
'most Catholic district of Ireland, the increase of the
numbers in the schools was almost incredible. He
thought it proper to, throw out these observations at
present; but he would reserve.his detailed objections till
the subject came before the House in another shape.
. Sir, J. NEWPORT complained of the delay which
Ind.taken, place on the part. of the Irish Government,
in not furnishing the papers respecting the schools; for
which he bad obtained an order last Session) and whiab

was repeated at the commencement of the present. N• 1
man was more averse than he was from the secaratioi
establishments for educating the people of Ireland ; bit
ht objected to the want of controul and direction by
the Catholics in the management of these institq.
tions. He was anxious that a system of conciliciim
should•Be triedp and baltad no apprehension of those of
one persuaion making proselytes of those of the (Tier.
Mr. DAWSON said, that the Petitioners had as-
sumed a title which did not•hekmg to-them ; -they had
no corporate character; and he could,not acknovi:edge
any. Bishops of Ireland without •an Act of Parii.iment,
He•agreed with•his Right Honourable Friend th it
system of education in Ireland was now in the ltiglies;
state. .of improvement ; and to chew the
.advantal!et
which had resulted from its adoption, he might mr .
tionethat in 1817 there Were only eight schools,
in -1824 there were 1122. The greatest tender nest per,
'vailed in these establishments tosvaro.ls the religious
suacions of the auendants. The English versifin of th‘!
• Seriptutes only. was •read ; and all Catechisms which
laid down• particular doctrines were carefully exclude.
He thought_ that. there were no establishments more
worthy the protection of the tountry than these school,.
...Mr. J. SMITH supported the Petition..

• Mr. PLUNKETT agreed with the Honourable Gen.
tleman (Mr:6rattan) 'that the complaints, of •the Peti-
tioners were entitled to the most respectful attention.
lie differed_ from his
.Honottrahle Friend iMr. tasen?
as to their assumption of a corp Orate character. The
Petition professed to come from the “ Roman Cat
Bishops of Ireland;" and they were Bishops to all in-
tents and purposes. • They had-as good -right to style
themselves Bishops as those of the Protestant Church,
for they had a right to give ordination, sod to do all
episcopal acts. lie agreed so far with these Ileveiend
Persons upon the importance of education, and he
thought that none could be safely or successfully con-
ducted which had not religion for its basii. But ho ff
entirely hostile to a. separate system of instruction to

those of rival persuasions, for he thought that '
couldhe more pernicious. 'These points, however, rnigLc
be mote fully discussed at aii,tlfer time. In the
time he might say, that he should be happy to ei.e
the subject his fullest consideration when the pope:
period arrived.
Mr. ABERCROM BY regretted that the subject 'nat-
ter of the Petition had come before the House in its pre-
sent form. lie was among those who thought that
good ,had been done by these schools, where the Lible
was read.without note or Comment; but he did not with
to see thedisenesion mired op•with. any party feeling.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD was favourable to thep: esent
*stem of education. ' A refetence to the increase in tke
:dumber of schools whichhad• grown up 'within a sliest
period satisfactorily illustrated its advantages. In the
'year 1817 there were in the Catholic Counties al' Coil:
'and Limerick .only three schools 'founded by the So.
tiety ;in the year 1823 there were 1808. He could. as.
Mire the House, that not only there was no partiality ob-
served by the Society injuriously towards the C.uhelics,
;but that so convinced were the Catholics thernselies of
that fact, that he had within these two days had cem-
munitations from two Catholic Priests-, who had the tate
of parishes in which -noel single• Protestant existed, -so-
Hiking- his interference to obtain assistance from the So-
ciety. for establiihing schools in Those disc icts:
,He ad-
'mined that every attempt at proselytising the children
of Catholics ought to be-discooraged ; and next referred
to a case where two Catholic Gentlemen acknowledged
their erroneous 'opi nion • that • the- Society encouraged
-prosetytism ''The -Report of .1116 Seeiety on Parochial
Schools ie Ireland-spoke kindly against the books pre.
vidusly in-use amongst the nliildienof the lower classes,
which were of suet' sicdeseiiption that education, which
Might. td be a blessihg, became a curse,. by enabling
them to read those
.infairous publications which ren-
dered theoi bid stiblects, bad Cht istians, and worse men.
The labouri'of -the TrUit Sticiety.had been directed to
counteract that tiAd dissensinated within tLe
last year.; less than 121,000, snaking -a total of vo-
lumee-distributed since the formatimeof the Society, of
784,000: ' He admitted that the conduct of the Society
ought to be impartial, and thatho book ought to be put
into the hands of Catholic children but such as were re-
cognized by the Catholic Church, and sanctioned by
the Catholic Clergy. •
Mr. BEECHER defended-the conduct of theCathco
lie Bishops in petitioning Parliament, as discretion was
littuality of much less importance than truth. • Those
ReVerend persons-were therefore right in stating their
opinions on the subject of religious instrnction of. their
flocks' •.The people of England recognised-the. schools
for national instruction, in which-the tenets of the Esta-
blished Church only were taught.; but• the Catholic
Very naturally feared proselytism. from the extension of
that system to the schools to which he sent his own
children.; he thought them perfectly right, therefore, in
seeking for means to establish .schools in which-no such
danger to the religions.creed of their-children could be
:apprehended.. He admitted that the Society had done
good, but it would Nye done much more had it not
adopted as-a sine qua- non that in all schools to which
they supplied money the Bible without, note or com-
ment should be read. Against the reading of the Bible
without note or comment the Catholic Clergy were not
singular in their objection; for one of the most enlight-
ened Protestant Bishops of the present day (the Bishop
of Peterborough) Ineceexpressed his hostility to the prac-
tice. The Catholic Bishops only held the same opinion.
He was convinced that until by a Concordatuns with the
Pope, or by some other means, the Catholic Clergy of
Ireland could be identified with the Governnient, that
country never would be tranquil.
Mr. Secretary PEEL regretted the introduction
of extraneous topics into the conversation that had taken
place. It appeared to him that there were two great
principles that ought tobe kept in view in educating the
people of Ireland., The first was, that of uniting, by
one system of• education, the children of the Catholics -
and the Protestants, thus making instruction a bond of
union instead of an engine of dissension; the second.
that in educating the children of Catholics no attempt
should be made to proselytise them—( Cheers ).. Oct
those principles had the Kildare-street Society been es"
tablished; arid that society must have departed very
much indeed from the original intention if it had re-,
commended proselytism. It was apprehended that party
feelings would be indulged in on that occasion in that:
House, but he hoped that the manner in which the seta-
ject had been there treated would be imitated elsewhere,
and that the introduction of other topics and less worthy
feelings would be for the future discarded from every
discussion that might take Place on the matter.
Mr. C. GRANT defended the Society ggainst t!:e
charge of wishing to proselytise the Catholic children;
.so far from which being the fact, he knew an' original
regulation of the society to be departid fidlit by ad=

II

•• , •
mining Catholic Bibles into schools with Catholic notes
and comments. •
Mr. GR fTAN replied.--lie had made no chargt
•st the ..ociety but he 11Cld in his hand a document
(ran which it appeared that 19,0001. were to be devoted
tonhe Society, and he gave notice that unless the sys.
ter were changed he would oppose the grant.—The
petition was then read, and ordered to be printed.

WAYS AND MEANS. •
Mr. HUSKISSON moved the Order °title Day, that
!Ile Report of the Committee of Ways and Means should
be then brought up. . .

The Resolutions were then read, and Bills ordered accordingly.
The Ott solutions on the Foreign Spirits and Sweets were also read
3 second time.
Mr. HUi•IE-wished to know what was the rate of
duties imposed by this resolution? whilst the duties on
Scotch spirits were only 2s. 6d. and those on foreign
10s. 6d. it was absurd to think that smuggling should
not be carried on.
Mr. HUSKISSON said the present Resolutions only,
applied to the annual duties, which consisted of Gs. Bd.
on brandy, and 3s. 6d.on rum. No pat t of it was upoq
English spirits. Any reduction on rum would be a re-
duction on the permanent duties.
The Resolution on the Tax on Pensions was read a second time.
SILK TRADE.
Mr.IIUSKISSON wished that the House would allow
the bringing up the resolution in respect of the silk
duties, .which he had submitted in a Committee of the
whole House on the preceding evening.
Mr. BARING said,.that in consequence of the vote of
the last night he should not oppose them in this stage.
The subject required calm consideration, and his pre-
sent acquiescence proceeded only from a wish to accom-
mutate his Right Honourable Friend, but on the im-
plied condition that he would give the subject the ini-
inuest and closest attention.
Mr. HUSKISSON would most certainly do his utmost
to procure a full and speedy examination and discussion
of this subject, for the sake of those in the trade, who
were interested in having tit, allowance of duty.
Mr. 13ROGDEN brought up the Report of the Cus-
toms Goods Acts.

Mt. BARING' thought that with respect to silk
dories, those who had small stocks on hand of 4001. or
6001. worth, were • equally entitled to drawbacks and
allowances as those who had forty or fifty thousand
pounds worth.
Mr. HUME considered that this treasure, from all
that had transpired with respect to it, bad been very un-
r.upposed to be an experjment on the part of
Ministers. He believed they had come to a very proper
and wise decision. , . , .
•
Mr. ELLICE hoped, when the Chancellor of the Ex.
cl.equvr should see that trade, be would stipulate that
on their renewing the bounty they should instantly pro-
ceed to employ those men who n.iaht have been thrown
out 01 employment.
After a few words from Sir H. PA ttNEtt. and Mr.
Alder man NVoon, the Report was read, and Bills or-
dered accordingly.