Star.
London, England, 1822-06-15 00:00:00

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Ireland, the i
which existed

THE 16th of NEXT MONTH (July), the grand
Summer Lottery begins drawing, and TEN CAPITALS
must be drawn in the First Tan MINUTIA. The whole Ten
may be pined for a Risk of Nineteen Pounds; for by the plat'
adopted, a Whole Ticket will ultimately only cost £1.196. and
a Sixteenth only Four Shillings, as is explained in the Schemes,
which are given gratis.
Tickets and Shares are selling by BISH, Stock-Broker; 4,
Cornhill, and 9, Charing cross, London • and by his Agents,
who, in the last .:1 Months, have sold Two Prises of 220,0001
and Thirty-fm. other Capitals.
Pre3t rat price of a Ticket is £21.185. and if returned on or
before 26th JULY, £2O may be received back, though it may
be dr wn a Blink, Small Prise, or undrawn ; so that the most
that can he lost is XI. 18s. after having had .a chance for all the
Ten Capitals, which must be drawn, and those which may be-
sides ; and the moat which can be lost by a Sitteenth is Four
Shillings ; other Shaves in proportion, after having had the same
chance as the Whole Tickets.—The Scheme contains
• TWO of £.3O,OOO!—TWO of 1:20,000! &c. Scc.
Consols and Money.
ilk' The-Prices of Stocks are affixed Rtan's
Office, in Cornhill, by which the Public may gelle=dens.

aind be melt ,
upon tea, sugar,
the comforts of
progress towards
'arose frees increased
don, which prevailed s.
judge of-the temptation —_
practice, when he told them that, according
ciliation, for every nine pounds Mid out
mei would receive twentrormit pounds. Leery Mick distillery
became a spirit for disaffocdou; and the system Was encouraged
by lasidlords, becihtse, by means of it, they 'Mao enabled to
obtain higher rents for their leads. In consequence of this prac-
tice, the prisms of the country *ere filled with offenders.—
During the last six years, 5152 persons were committed for
illicit distillation; and of these, 5113 had bola convicted. Thus
did bad laws generate a host of offenders, who were always ready
to raise the standard of rebellion. He should next advert to the
adadnistration of justice in Ireland. In the admirable work of
Sir John Davies, he said there was no nation which would rest
better satisfied with the just administration of the law than the
Irish. Now, if there existed in Ireland a spirit of resistance to
the existing laws, it was fit that an inquiry should be made as to
the manses in which those laws were put in force. He did not
mean to throw out any reflections agalast the Judges of Ireland ;1
but it was well known that the Magistracy of Ireland was in a
most imperfect state; that many men, almost without the means
of subsistence, were in the commission of the peace, and that
some of them were in a state to be sent to jail. Some time ago
in application had been made to him to relieve the son of a Ma-
gistrate, who happened to be in distress, and he afterwards
found this person to be so far an impostor, that although his
father was a Magistrate he *as actually in a state of bankruptcy.
It was then a subject of the most serious consideration for the
Legislature to see that the execution of the laws should not hal
intrusted to such men. • He wished to know why there was not i
a larger proportion of Catholic Magistrates in Irelaqd, in pro-
portion to the Catholic property of the country? This was not
the fact, therefore impartial justice was not dealt out to,the
people, and the Catholic population must necessarily be dissatis-
fled under such a state of things. Such was the effect of taxa-
tion- in Ireland, that it went to shut out two-thirds of the popu.'
laden from the means of obtaining justice. One Of the greatest
grievances was the enormous expense of stamps on law proceed-
ings, which bad increased two-thirds since the Union, and ope-
rated as a total exclusion of justice. To illustrate this, he would
state, that in consequence of the impossibility of obtaining jus-
tice by civil processes, a singular and whimsical practice had
been resorted to. In the west of Ireland, when a dispute arose
about the poeseadott of land, a scene of riot took place. This
became the subject of a criminal proceeding; the parties who
dieted each other were trjed in the Court of the Assistant Bar-
rister, and the pr4erty wail adjudged to those in whose favour
a verdict of Not Guilty was given. On the subject of absentees.
he must say that be did net think the country could be much
impoverished by the absence of landlords. But, unfortunately,
the incomes of many Gentlemen were spent on this side of the
Channel : but a plan should be adopted to make it the interest
of Irish Gentlemen of fortune to live in Ireland, and that their
safety should be insured while they were there. lie should next
come to the subject of tithes, and he wished to remind their
Lordships that the population lie had just alluded to was, in ad-
dition to all its other hardships, burdened with a tax the least
congenial to their feelings, the most oppressive, and one of the
most revolting that could be conceived—a burden-which was
the most oppressive in times of the greatest distress—an impost
levied on land, when tot; land produced no advantage to the
cultivator. Their Lordships' attention was imperiously called
to this impost, with a view of adopting route remedy. lit; had
no intention of casting any imputation on the great body of the
Clergy; but he complained of the power they possessed, and of
the odium which the system necessarily threw upon them. Ile
knew that in many instances individual Clergymen bad se-'
nounced their actual rights in times of great distress, from mo-
tives of humanity, while the avaricious Clergy had the power of
exercising extortion and oppression over the poor of the country.
A return had been made of tithe proceedings in Ireland. The
Noble Marquis enumerated the number of tithe causes tried in.
Ireland in the last six years, the whole of which exceeded 14,000.
Besides these, there were innumerable cases decided summarily
before Magistrates. The Noble Marquis next took notice of
the practice pursued by Tithe Proctors in setting valuations on
the crops, and compelling the cultivators to abide by the same.
The law was such as to operate most iniquitously and tyranni-
cally against the farmers; for if only three farmers gave notice
at the same time to. the Clergyman that they would lay out their
tithes, they might be charged with a conspiracy. Could any
thing be mere shocking than this? The tithe was most unequally
raised in Ireland ; for in some places potatoes were subject to it,
while in other places they were not ; and thus was there a claim
on men's labour which excited all that irritation and resistance
so constantly felt in Ireland. Ile could not conceive a more
salutary object for the consideration of the Legislature than the
devising of a plan by which the commutation of tithes might
take place. lie would not rest the claim of tithes on any Di-
vine right ; and the most respectable authorities of the Reformed
Church held that tithes did not exist in virtue of Divine right.

Pteteetant aeon tedlelk: )311 n 1111) said be would now pro.
Pc" his Roland°SWlM Jo km wisho, if any Noble Lord felt
any dilleuky Mato tlettnersa be ought to pursue--If there 'misted
in his mind Why dstatt as as the cameo which pissed Ireland in
her present litanies, Ite bred that Nettie Lewd to transport
himself to some remote comer -et that unhappy island, and see
the state of society which 'slated between the governing and
the governed—the bitter and basilic feeling which was engen.
dered, and that under the laws of &gland. He would see one
county gentleman drilled to seek an asylum in another county.
—He would see another deprived of that legitimate influence
which rank, character, and property ought to inspire. He would
see the peasant deprived of that natural protection which the
lowest and meanest individual in this country had a right to
eipect from the Magistracy—a Magistracy of his own persua-
sion, whilst in Ireland they were chiefly of the opposkeone.--
He &hewed their Lordships how that country laboured under
the oppression of the tithe system, and he asked them if a state
of society so abandoned as that which he had just represented,
and so remote from all those piards which kept society together
in this country—be asked their Lordships if they could wonder
Ireland advanced hi vice and misery ? Then, in such a state,
did they mean to adopt a course which would shew they enter-
tained the same sentiments as Lord Bacon, that Ireland was
south more dangerous civilised than savage? His Lordship
hoped all the auspicious circumstances of his Majesty's visit—
the bright splendour of that moment when his kingly foot first '
touched the land of Erin, augured better fortunes to that un- '
bappy country, and would remove all those prejudices which
stood in the way of adopting a course of wise, temperate, and
efficient legislation. His Lordship concluded by moving-
O That their Lordships do resolve that the state of Ireland re-
*tires the serious attention of Parliament, and the adoption of
such measures as would Improve its condition, and more espe-
cially insure its
The Earl of LIVERPOOL was animated with a desire to
discuss these important topics in the fattest and calmest manner.
But he conceived that it would imply a censure on the Irish Go-
vernment, and especially on the Noble Marquis now at the head
of it, if the Resolution were agreed to, and therefore he would
negative it. They ought first to And out the causes of the evils
before they attempted to cure them; for faction often attributed
them to anything but their true causes. Even in these coun-
tries where the contest was between Democracy and Aristo-
cracy, and where liberty was in the mouth of every man, still,
in ancient, and in some such modern States, the great port of
the people were kept in a state pf interminable slavery. The
evils of Ireland—nine-tenths of them--arose, not from the sys-

tem of Government, bat from the unfortunate state in which
the peasantry was kept, with relation to the property of the
country. No one would say that Scotland was inferior to Eng-
land or Ireland in Internal regulation and prosperity ; yet she
had the smallest share of the popular parts of our Government;
and Ireland had by far the greatest of the three. Ireland had
nothing to complain of as to the popular nature of her Constitu-
tion. She enjoyed the Trial by Jury, and the independence of
her Judges, as well as we did. He would ask if the burden 'of
revenue imposed on Ireland was unfair, or too heavy, when
Great Britain, with a population of 14 millions, raised fifty mil-
lions of taxes; and Ireland, with a population Of seven millions,
raised, according to the Noble Lord's own statement, only abuut
three millions? Let it not be forgotten, that the debt of Ireland
had been taken by this country upon itself, and it was still bur-
dened with its interest. He, therefore, contended that every
fair consideration had been paid to the wants and feelings of
Ireland. There was a Bill in progress to amend the system-of
Magistrates in Ireland ; but the present system was called for
by the whole representative body of Ireland. As to absentee-
ship be would discuss nothing of its pecuniary effects, because
there was one pre-eminent effect arising from it, and that was
the moral effect of it, but the blame would apply as much to the
Scotch as to Irish absentees, yet the same effects were by no
means produced in the one country as in the other by it. It was
very difficult for the Lord Lieutenant and Lord Chancellor of
Ireland to ascertain proper persons to put into the Magistracy in
Ireland. He was sure that no person was put into the Com-
mission of the Peace from favouritism, or any other impropet
motives. There had been every disposition to assimilate the
law and practice of Ireland to that of England ; but there were
cases which rendered them impossible to be carried into effect.
Before the Rebellion of 1745, and the abolition of the herit-
able
jurisdictions, Scotland was in as disturbed, and, per-
haps, a more unfortunate situation than Ireland is at present.
The right of tithe Was as sacred a right as that of any sort of
property whatever, though he would say nothing of its proceed-
ing from divine right. He would say also, that the resident
Clergy of Ireland were of beneficial effect in that country; for
they remained amid their flocks, spending their income among
them, and giving numb to charitable uses. Ile believed, how-
ever;that they never received half their dues. A great evil was,
that perhaps a living of £4OO a year was to be collected out of
1500 people. Let them consider what endless litigation must
arise out of such a system. The only remedy would be to take
the tithes from the proprietor. and not from the occspiers of the
land. As to any general system of commutation, he was of opi-
nion that it would not be advisable. The sub-divisionl of pro-
perty into the 40s. freeholder was also a very great evil. A plan
on this subject was proposed by a Right Hon. Friend of his in
another place ; but that was not the only measure which Govern-
ment had in view for the amelioration of the state of Ireland.—
There was also a measure with respect to the Police of Ireland,
to which there were some objections; but he trusted they would
wait till it came before them in its regular course. He defended
the Noble Marquis at the head of the Irish Government from
any Imputation. He had returned to Ireland with all the feelings
of an Irishman, and anxious that the last acts of his public life
should be beneficial to Ireland. For these reasons he should
oppose the Resolution of the Noble Marquis.
The Earl of LIMERICK threw no blame on the Noble
Marquis at the head of the Irish Government, nor on his Ma-
jesty's Government in this country ; but he thought everything
the Noble Marquis bad said shewed the necessity for inquiry
into-the lamentable state of Ireland. There was no difference
between landlords and tenants in Ireland more than in other
countries. He was afraid there was a feeling in Ireland against
the Laws and Government of this country ; and he wished to
see the general right of voting abjidged, with a view to take
away the strong means of barbarizing the people. He was
strongly attached to the interests of the Church of Ireland; but
it was very grievous to the Irish peasant to see the Church, into
which he never entered, reared up by his money, and supported
through that which was wrung from him by the Tithe Proctor.
Tithes occasioned great evils in Ireland ; and he knew that the
Proprietor and the Clergyman were willing to commute them.
The Salt Duty would destroy the only remaining branch of trade
in Irelarid, namely, the trade in previsions. He should support
the motion as far as it went, but he did not think it went far
enough. lie believed that if the law wit& respect to the Irish
peasantry were passed, almost every Magistrate of respectability
would throw up his commission, and they would have nothing
but stipendiary Magistrates of no character.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, there was no fault to be
found with the mode of adnu'histering justice in Ireland. If
some of the Noble Persons he saw around him would go and act
as Magistrates in Ireland, for three months, he would undertake
to say they would hear of no more complaints. The Clergyman
had a right to tithes as much as the proprietor had to the other
9-10ths of his land, for he had bought 9-10ths of it, and no more.
The Marquis of DOWNSHIRE was disappointed • and dis-
heartened by the manner ib which the Noble. Earl at the head
of the Government had met this question, which was brought
forward with much temper and moderation. The Irish farmer
complained that tithes were a tax on all improvements; and he
wished to see the Parliament and Government doing all they
could to soften the system, taking care not to endanger the
Church Establishment of Ireland. He recommended the ap-
pointment of careful resident Gentry to the Magistracy, for If
the Bill of another House should pass, no respectable Gentleman
would be of the Commission.
Lord DONOUGHMORE was astonished to find the Noble
Earl had from the first shewa that he would clap an extinguisher
on this important and necessary inquiry. He denied that the
motion carried either censure towards the Government at home,
or on the Lord Lieutenant of Ireland. He did not think they
were giving the Noble Marquis (Wellesley) time enough to ac-
;:ithe isesibres whirls were expected from .him, for the
ddsipillf his country. He did not. think the Irish Pace Bill,
which had stolen into Parliament towards de latter end-of the
Session, showed an, of the groat mind which presides over the

—But at the same time, he would not attempt to take away
from the Clergy the just claims they had to this source of in-
come, because it was one to which they were fairly entitled.
With that disposition to treat the property of tithes with the
respect due to it—a principle ,in any alteration which was to take
place, it was necessary to keep distinctly in view. There was
no fair measure of commutation, to which be, as a lay proprietor
himself, would net give his assent. He was willing to leave the
Clergy in that scale of rank and respectability which they now
enjoyed; he would support no measure which would leave
that body more dependent on the State than they now were ;
and he could assure their Lordships, if he knew any measure
which would make them less dependent on the State, he would
be most glad to give it his cordial assent. In the discharge of
the duty which he had undertaken, he did not think it fair to
conceal from their Lordships any view which he entertained as
to the amelioration of the tithe system, and he was therefore in-
duced to suggest to their Lordships, if any means of making
some improvement might not be effected, by introducing into
Ireland such a valuation of corn as was now practised in Scot.
land. The corn was valued by a sworn Jury, and an ltverage
taken fur one year, though he thought it would be better if
it was taken fur five or six years. The introduction of a simi-
lar system, in Ireland would be the means of securing the
Clergy against a change in tithes, and would support the Clergy
in an independence and respectability equal to that which they
now enjoyed. He did not mean to extend this view of the
subject to England. The circumstances of both countries
were different, and that which might benefit Ireland would
not, perhaps, be attended with the same result in England.—
A corn rent should be established and paid by the proprietors,
and not the occupiers of the land, and the proprietors should
have the power of exempting themselves from future claims by
purchasing a portion of land, and settling it on the Clergyman
in lieu of the amount of his tithes. To this system he could see
no objection, and expected no opposition from the Right Rev.
Bench, because a measure similar in its nature and principle was
before under the consideration of their Lordships, and met with
their concurrence. In 1811 a common of considerable extent,'
in Clifton, County of Westtnoreland,was enclued,which becdme
subject to tithe. These were bought up by the proprietors for
,f 9,000, and an estate purchased, which was nude over to the
incumbent and his successors, which exonerated the proprietor
from any further claims for tithes. This meuure me(with no
opposition, and be now mentioned it to show the practicability
of such a scheme. He did not contend that such a system ought
to become general in Rugiand, but in Ireland he was convinced
it would be attended with great and beneficial results. If the
Clergy had a vested interest it would attach to them a respect-
ability,which would qualify them for the more efficient perform-
ance of their dudes. His Lordship said he had received a com-
munication in which it was alleged that the Clergyman received
nothing like the proportion of tithe which was allowed by the
the landlord, where the landlord did se In consideration Of
what the tenant had to pay. The communication partkulerlY
alluded to the county of Limerick; but this only proved the'
evil the greater, when the tenant, to exempt -himself from doll
law of tithe, was willing to give the landlord a greater rem O.J
ration than the Clergyman. There was another subject wail*
his Lordship could not help noticing. It was stated, Mid
he believed correctly, that the burden of building Churches
chiefly fell on the Catholic peasantry. He did not examine this
part of the subject with the attention it merited; but he was
informed, if there was an examination hue the first fruits, there
would be found funds suaciendy ample for that purpose, which
would exempt the peasantry from a contribution that must be
necessarily os.odious to them. There was no valuation of thlt
first fruits since their first 'lndus: Po in file rely of Queen Mot
and though they were little then, be believed they viers' now
still less. He respeowd tits rights of the Church, and was wWiej

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rot I lannestation *of titlic4,
, pelmet staarof the Irish Magistrze7.
benbeld with "element of a ad.
Thole things required Irrestigation.
MIGH said, the present minion might
dme of the bra conqgett of Ireland, at
Revolution,. and at the Union. xo
paid any attention to ameliorating the
present motion remaining unanswered,
a his Majesty's Ministers. Many bad
laws pawed at wins times with respect to Ireland, had in,
Amiga boss from time today repealed by them, bat their effect,
long remained after they were gone. Geakmen ought to girt
equal laws to Ireland as to England. It ]vas impossible thzt
equal justice could be done in the prevent stated the laws rt.
speeds.% Protestants and Catholics. It was not the justice ad.
tniniatehd by the Judges in Ireland, that was complained of;
was that which was administered by the Magistracy that required
revision. The great evil of tithes in Ireland, arose from their
cawing coatings' disputes between the clergy and their Hocks.
The Earl of BLESINTON spoke in favour of a commits.
don of tithes.
Lord DARNLEY spoke in favour of tie ntollos. The visit
of the King to Ireland, and the appointment of the Nabie
/threads to the bead of her Government, gave hopes that the
case of Ireland would be irresdgated ; but no such tkiny.
total revislem of the Magistracy of Ireland might be of muc‘.
aurae( • but the measure now intended would only disgost e
Oladkjiiiit in the Consmiseleta. if his Noble Friend's propcs:_
dos should Ise now re)ected, he hoped be would bring it (oi-
lman' in the next Sntden. If he did not, he (Lord D.) woulf!.

Lord HOLLAND thought mach had been said which did
not bear upon the question. The Noble Earl opposite had me;
the motion by an eatraordinary harangue on the state sof society
in ancient and modern times. The Noble Earl had told thee'
on a former occasion that Government was considering the nave
of Ireland. They were a very considering Administration, bet
" &liberal Rena, et peril Sagiustuns." The 'Noble Earl wished
them to put their trust and confidence in him and the Govern.
ment ; but he (Lord Holland) knew him too well for that. Ali.
senteeship was certainly a great evil, but it was the most foolisa
thing that could be in one who bad helped to bring about the
Union with Ireland to cast any blame on that which he hint-
sell bad assisted in giving rise to. The Noble Lord talked of
our only deriving three millions of revenue from Ireland ; but 4e
forgot that the smallness of revenue was a proof of the oppressive
nature of the taxes. As to tithes, the Noble Lord had treated
then as property. He had no intention of treating them other-
wise; but if the Noble Earl did not mean to snake his measure
respecting them compulsory, he (Lord Holland) would give hint
not a farthing for his measure. It was impossible to conceive a
better method of throwing discontent among a people than I y
taking tithes from the great bulk of the community, :slid that t,t
support a Church to which only a fifth part of them isersnge.:.
He was attached to the Constitutiou and freedom of this c.ar-
try ; but he would not say that he would be a very good aul,je,-,
if he had to pay out of his earnings for the maintenance of a Re-
ligion and a Church which his conscience disapproved of. 1V e
had bound ourselves at the Union to give the Irish the hen-rt
of the English Laws and Co satiation ; and we had no rigts: :r
suspend them from time to time. If the, made the British Ctrr-
btitution a dead letter in Ireland, they would be attaching a
rotten carcase to the English Government, which would Li;:.
mately destroy it.. It was throwing most ini-erable dust in the
eyes of the people of Ireland, that after twenty, two years it IVZ,
not time to inquire into their situation, though the time was
come for suspending the Constitution, as regarded tbem, ar.t
for cutting their throats. If Parliament should be reduced to
the necessity of repealing the Act of Union, he might repeat the
lines which he quoted when that Union was originally
Mortua quin e.tiant jungebat corpora vivis,
" Compourns manibusque mantis ;ague oribus or.,
" Tormenti genus! et•sanie taboque euerttes
" Compleru in misero, longs sic morte necabat."
The House then divided—
For the motion - - - 60
Against it - - - - 108—Majority 48.
Adjourned at Half-past Eleven till Monday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. WARREpresented a Petition from Tannton,apinst
Licensing Bill.:—lteferred to the Committee un the said Bi:l.

Mr. DEN !SON presented a Petition from two individvaN
who exercised the trade of tanners, in the county of Surrey, r- -
presenting that they had discovered an advantageous tn.hle of
dressing hides, and praying for encouragement.—Ordered to is
on the table.

Mr. DALY gave notice, that on Wednesday next he shr?l,!
bring forward a motion respecting the present "Piths Systc:;l tt
Ireland.

Mr. M. A. TAYLOR presented a Petition from the Gorr.
nor and Company of the Chelsea Water Works, prayinz for com-
pensation in consequence of the injury which, they alleges'.
would be done to their property by the London Bridge Wa:er
Works Company.—Ordered to be referred to the Committee oil
the said Bill.

Doyle's Divorce Bill was ordered to be committed ; and it

was ordered that all notices, in the progress of the hill,
sary to be served on Lady Doyle, should be served on her
dy strip's agent..
Mr. COKE presented a Petition from certain Landwvi.er:
Norfolk, complaining of Agricultural Distress, and pray is e; ;Jr
Parliamentary Reform.—Ordered to lie on the table.
Sir It. W I LSON presented a Petition from a Mr. Lewis,
confined in Oakham jail under sentence of the Court of Nint's
Bench, for a libel, and for a penalty of XlOO, inflicted upon Ent
for selling roasted grain, which was stated to be a fraudulent im..
ration of coffee. This the Petitioner denied; and be referred
the opinion of the late. Chief Baron Macdonald, to prove that
the selling of this grain was no fraud upon the Revenue.
The Petition, after a few. words from the CNA/KC/LW/I of :he
EXCHEQUER, was ordered to lie on the table.
General GASCOYNE wished to ask the Chancellor of thz
Exchequer whether he intended to persevere in his intention *f
retaining the remnant of the Salt Tax?

Mr. H. SUMNER wished also to know whether the Lest:ler
Tax would certainly be repealed ? It was of consequence to the.e
concerned in the trade to be distinctly informed on the subject.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that
with respect to the Salt Tax he intended to propose nizny Re-
solutions, in alteration of those already agreed to by the House.
The internal tax, it had already been said, would be reduced to
two shillings. The other duties he proposed should be continued
until 1885, that the Public and the House might see the effect
of the present alteration. With respect to the export salt, he
proposed to extend the duty free allowance to Ireland. He pro-
posed also that Ireland should be allowed to Manufacture set,
without payment of any duty. The last observations would app:y
to Scotland, to which it was also proposed to extend those al-
lowances. Should his plan meet the approbation of the House,
he intended to persevere in his promise to take off the Leather
Tax. But he was satisfied that the remission of taxation could
not be carried any further.
Mr. CURWEN said, the explanation of the Right Hon. Gee-
tleman did not satisfy him ; ha therefore trusted that the Right
Hon. Gentleman would consent to the discussion of the measure
on Monday.
After a few words from Colonel Dams, the Cnanctu.oa of
the EXCURQUILW, and Mr. D. litcaxar, the conversation dropped.
Sir J. NEWPOR'r gave notice, that when the Irish Estimates
came on, he should move that Mayuonth College should be raised
to 8615,000, as It was in 1807.

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