Star.
London, England, 1831-10-06 00:00:00

at ii.' 53.1,t time he was bound to say, that he had perfect
con:.sl •ev 1-$ ti e good sense of the people of the country,
ts,.sa v hoot he feared nothing of a revolutionary nature, or
•.i.i occasion danger to the government or establish-
ments of the country ; bur he Was afraid of danger arising
from the revolutionary measures proposed and introduced by
the eovernment itself, (cheering from the opposition.)—
Ale believed history would bear him out in the assertion.
moat there never was any great change or revolution effected
in she cnan.ry at any time which had not, like the present,
be. n prope•ed by the Government, nod carried through by
ti,- it:Pueoce of the Crown. (Hear.) He entreated noble
to resat this measure, and do all in the just exercise of
In it pnwtr to defeat it, trusting to the good sense of the
it, ear t •.1 the country. ((Tear.)
Vie Earl of CA RI.IfsLE wished to ask the noble duke
$-$ ;.e- if the p'tormation of the Church of England, and
war trvolotion cf 11i38 were the changes to which that noble
dt.lte all id: el ? He ( Earl Carlisle) knew of no other in his.
t.:ry that thd reference to this country but these. The eyes
of tie whole nation were on their lordships. and he called
upon them to abs•ain from all language likely to be con-
stood into that of irtimillatior.
The Earl of HADDINGTON said a few words in ex-
planation.
The Earl of WI NC 111 LSEA supported the consistency
and sir:eerily of the noble duke (Wellington) regarding the
measure of Catholic Emancipation ; he neither crept into
nor maintained office by any sacrifice of either. Toe noble
earl then alluded to his statements in his place in the house
the previous night respecting the slanders against an illus.
trititts lady repeating the same assertions in reference
thereto with great vehemence of manner. He was of opinion
That noble lords opposite had their principles maintained by
popular clamour.—(Hear.)
Lord HOLLAND, in explanation, said, he had not insi.
nuated that the noble duke held office by any change of
opinion, and still less that he crept into office by such means.
He meant to imply that be (Lord Holland) might be des-
tined to ace that noble duke change his opinion on the pre.
sent question as on a former one of great importance.—
( Hear.)
Earl GREY said, he did not feel anxious to prolong the
debate. He did not blame the noble earl (Winchilsea) or
any other man for animadverting on his public conduct ; but
the noble earl went further; he called the present measure
revolutionary, and calculated to subvert the constitution of
the country; and stated that his opinions were maintained by
popular clamour : such averments were againt parliamentary
usage, and he called upon the Male earl to state precisely
ltis meaning.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM rose to explain amidst
loud calls of t' Let Earl Winchilsea explain."
Earl WINCHILSEA said he had the greatest respect for
the consistency of the noble earl's political life ; he meant
nothing offensive in the words he used ; he never intended to
irsinunte that the noble earl would sacrifice principles to place
—he believed the noble earl to be the last man in their lord-
ships house who would retract his words or principles.
Earl GREY replied, that the noble earl opposite had a
right to arraign his ( Earl Grey's) public conduct, and ex.
pressed himself satisfied with the explanation.
Lord HOLLAND then presented a reform petition from
Aldgate Ward ; and another signed by 100 persons in Bond.
street. (Laughter.)
ILord %Y H AIINCLI FEE still repeated, that he believed
the tradesmen of Bond-street and other places had a fear of
the Bill. _ _ .

Lord HOLDAND.—Perhaps the noble lord will men-
tion the particular streets. for Bond-street could not be one
of them. _ _ _ _

The Earl of MULORAVE said, If the noble lord
(Whameliffe) were to perambulate elsewhere, he would find
that the people had not grown cool on Reform.
bordWIIARNCIIFFE never sold the people were cool
err the question of Reform, though they were opposed to
the Bill. . .

The Marquis of WESTMINSTER, amidst much cla.
ir, our, rose to present a Reform petition.

ORDER OF DAT.

The LORD CHANCELLOR put the question, that the
order of the day for resuming the adjourned debate on the
Reform question be now read.
The Clerk having read it from the table,
Viscount GODERICH and Earl DUDLEY rose at the same
time, amidst loud calls for both; the former, however, gave
way to
Earl DUDLEY.—The noble Earl addressed the house
In so low a tone of voice that many of his opening sentences
were wholly unheard below the bar; as soon as he became
distinctly audible he said, that the present measure would
effect an entire change in the settled institutions of the
countty—there would be a change in the law of the land, and
in the patronage of the Crown, as well as in the composition
of the House of Commons, hitt was now the most im-
portant branch of the state—all would be lost. Never was
there such as enormous change proposed. Noble Lords
were called upon to stigmatise the valued institutions of
their forefathers —( Hear, hear.) Was it not extraordi-
nary that a Government which could not gain the con.
fidence of Parliament for any one measure of finance
the alteration of a tax on the regulation of the timber
duties—was to be entrusted with a measure for the
complete change of the Constitution, to alter it from
monarchical to democratic?—(Cheers.) If this Bill were
to be carried, it would be to say that this country never had
possessed a good government, that the people had always
been deprived of their rights (hear.) Did this bill stand
on right or on expediency ? As to the right, where was
the peculiar right of the 101. householder over the one who
had a house at a less rent ?. If the inherent right were ad.
mitted, why stop at the 101. householder ? Had the right
any juster foundation than the delusion and outcry that the
country had been impoverished by the •• boroughmongers."
(hear, and a laugh.) The people had been duped with the
notion that the Reform Bill would produce some practical
benefit ; that trade would flourish ; that wages would be
higher; and that bread would be cheaper. These were
held out as s hat would result from Parliamentary Re.
form, and hence the present outcry for it. (Loud
cheers.) Such were the false reasonings of those who
called for reform—of the logicians and philosophers of
Birmingham ; but logic and philosophy, such as were
there displayed, had hale to do with these matters. If
ties mi asate were carried, the Government would be ex.
posed to the caprice of every popular gale. In such a state
of things there could net be good and steady Government;
to etten:pc it would be making bricks without the straw.
Ile declared that if there were such a popular assembly as
this Bill contest fated, the Crown and Aristocracy could
nor stand against tt. (Cheers.) He knew what the theory
of the Constitution said, according to the reading of sonic;
but with such a popular assembly, no Government could
stand except it bowed to popular feelings, and then what
would become of the Crowe and the Aristocracy? Wbat
provis:on did the bill brake for the Ministers to
hive seats ? None !—They whe held places must pay
court to a great many persons before they Gould get re-
turned to Parhaneint ; and what chance of return bad
they, if they happened to be opposed to what were
termed popular measures? (Hear, hear.) What were their
lordships called on even now to do? To destroy those insti-
tutione in the admiration of which they had all been brought
up. Ought not the results ot rash proceedings in neigh.
housing counties to teach them to beware how the meddled
with institutions that had lasted so long, and to which they
looked back with so much affection and pride ? (Cheers.)—
They had the undoubted right to reject this bill, if they
thought it prejudicial to the country; and were they to be
exposed to the indignation of the country if they performed
that duty ? But even if such were to be the result, ought
they not to be prepared to exposed themselves to that danger,
rather than endure so destructive so levelling a treasure ?—:
( Hear.) Were they to sit there merely to register the edicts ,
of another assembly ? (Hear.) Every reasonable man,
however, he was ready to declare. saw that some change
must take place ; but it did not follow that they were to
consent to 411 awe( ping and destructive a measure as that
sow presented, and which ' was to be forced on them by
threats, delusions, and intoxication. (Hear, hear.) He
could not believe t bat such a bill ought to pass, nor that the
fatal consequences anticipated by some would result from
rejecting it. (Beer.)
The Marquis of LA NsDOWNE said, that before stating
his reasons for concurring in the bill, he would make some
observations on what had fallen from those who opposed it.
In the first place, he could not allow the Noble Lord (Ward),
who last spoke, to rest his opposition to the minister's bill on
the grouid that all their financial measures had failed, and,
tiuretort, that they bad not, and (mild not, deserve the con.
titlence ot the House 'and the country. The fact was not so;
arid bad the Noble Lord been as listening wile had been an
attentive menthes, he wbald have known that the fact was
not what he asserted it to be. What 1 had none of the mea-
sures experienced *the confidence, and received the sanction
of the Parliament ? What said the Noble Lord to the
dicinguisbed museum of law 011orm that had been brought
forward ? Had they not risoN that House eves without a
division ?
Lad DUDLEY and WARD.—I limited my observa-
tion to the financial measume dOeMernineut.,
as