Star.
London, England, 1830-12-24 00:00:00

IMPERIAL PARLIAMENT.

HOUSE OF C6RDS, Duo. 13.
norm. ASIZIFT.
The house met at half-past three o'clock, and the royal assent was
Ricers by commission to the Consolidation Fund Bill, the Regency Bill,
the Administration of Justice Bill, the Patents Continuation Bill, the
Colonial Acts Validity BiU, and several private bills. The Commis-
sioners were the Lotd Chancellor, the Archbishop of Canterbury, the
Duke of Devonshire, Lord Durham, and the Earl of Shaftesbury.
Lord GRANVILLE presented a petition from a congregation of fe-
male Dissenters against negro slavery.

MANILLA DUTIES AND RUSSIAN INDEMNITY.
Lord WYNFOIID seeing a noble Earl in his place, wished to take
the opportunity of putting two questions before their Lordships retired
for the holidays. The noble and learned lord said it was generally be.
lieved that the duty payable on bsrilla had been taken of by a certain
order of council, and he was desirous of asking whether the noble Farl
had any objection to lay before the house any order in council issued
upon the subject since July ? He had another question to submit.
By a stipulation in the treaty of November, 1815, between Russia on
one part, and the King of the Netherlands and Great Britain on the
other, Great Britain agreed to pay the Emperor of Russia the sum
of 50,000,000 of florins, Great Britain taking one moiety of that sum,
arid Holland the other; but there mu a proviso, that in the event of the
Netherlands separating from the United Provinces, that part of the debt
which remained unpaid at the time of such separation, was not to be
paid by Great Britain or Holland. The question be would ask was,
whether the noble earl had any objection to laying on the table of that
house, an account of the payments made by Great Britain in pursuance
of that treaty with the date of the last payment ?
Earl GRE7 had no hesitation in saying there wu not the least ob-
jection to the production of the documents for which the noble lord in.
tended to move. It was unnecessary to make any remarks on that occa.
sion respecting the Order in Council, u the proper time for explanation
ould be when the document appeared on the table. The noble lord
had mentioned the treaty of 181 b, in the supposition no doubt, that this
country was relieved from payment of part of the debt contracted with
Russia. He could only say, on that subject, that it remained to be
ascertained whether there had been such a separation of the Nether.
lands front Holland as would constitute a bona fide' release of this
country from the engagement. The accounts would be laid on the table,
and when Parliament met again, more positive information might be
communicated.

Lord WYNFORD then moved for the documents to which ly: lud
alluded, and the same were ordered.

Li. biAT cs.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he was desirous of obtaining in.
formation for their lordships previous to the discussion of his bill
for the better care of Lunatics under the protection of the Court ot
Chancery, and therefore moved, there be laid before the House an
account of the fees received by Commissioners of Lunatics for the
last five years.—Ordered.
Mr. CaArt a, from the Treasury, presented at the Bar a copy of the
Treasury minutes, relating to the registry of deeds in Ireland.
Earl GREY then said, as there was uo other business, he should
move the house do adjourn to Thursday the ati of February next.
The motion was agreed to, and the house adjourned to the 3d of
February.

HOUSE OF COMMONS, TIICESDAY, DEC. 23.
Mr. C. W. WYNNE took the oaths, and his seat.
Mr. BLACKETT moved fir • new writ for Beeralaton, in the room
of Lord Loraine' now Earl of Beverley.
Mr. ELLICE moved for a new writ for the Borough of Bletchingly,
in the room of Mr. Tennyson, who had accepted the office of Clerk of
the Ordnance.

Mr. MAXWELL moved for a new wilt for Bandon-bridge, in the
room of Lord Barnard, now Earl of Bandon.
Sir R. INGLIS moved fur a return of excise licenses for the sale of
beer granted under the act of last session.—Ordered.
A message front the liou,.e of Lords brought up the Consolidated
Fund Bill, agreed to by their Lordships.
Sir J. NEWPORT moved for a copy of the patent under which
the judge of the Admiralty Court in Ireland was appointed, and a copy
of the regulations he had made in his court since his appointment.—
Ordered.

Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN presented a petition from the Ward
of Aldgate, for the repeal of the assessed taxes, particularly of the
house and window tax. These taxes were an very oppressive, that he
thought they should have a preference in the repeal contemplated by
Ministers. They were also rendered move oppressive by surcharges,
which in eight years amounted in the city of London to 800,0001.
Mr. WILES supported the prayer of the petition ; the burthen of
the taxes and the oppression of the surcharges were complained of
all over the country.
The House was summoned to the' Home of Peers to hear the Royal
assent given by commission to several bills.
The SPEAKER, on his return, acquainted the Douse that the
Royal assent had been given to several bills, which he enumerated.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN moved for a return of the account
of corn. meal, and flour imported each year since 1815, distinguishing
the quantity imported from Ireland and Canada.
Gen. PALMER presented a petition from Beth fu► the repeal of the
house and window •. v.

N. IlUlt • •• • .•.xl the petition.
ii.r.yrd •• I •,,ROUGH presented a petition from Kirkeltly for
ParliamenLary Reform.
Sir R. FERGUSSON, In supporting this petition, observed that it
was now tolerably evident that Scotland was alive to the necessity of
Emancipation. He called Parliamentary Reform, Emancipation to
,tze,.!•,nd, because at present it had no Representation at all.
Alt . NIN presented a return of officers on half-pay, and two
petitio••; ti nt-,,nieryshire, for the extinction of negro slavery.
Mr. WILK:, • • a petition from Boston for the repeal of the
pilgrim tax in Indu• lie abolition of idolatrous practices in that',
country.

;1lr• HUME said the East India Company gave perfect freedom to
all Missionaries to instruct the Hindoos, and they had abolished Sot-
tees, and he did not see how they could interfere farther.
Mr. WICKS presented a petition from the Dissenters of Stepney,
and six other places, for the abolition of slavery ; and gave notice,
that, after the recess, he would make a n:otion relative to the pilgrim
tax and idolatrous ceremonies in India.

Mr. KEITH DOUGLAS presented petiiicns from Kircudbright and
Aswan fur a reform in Parliament.

Air FERGUSSON supported the petition, and though a reform
might greatly affect those who at present represented Scotland, he
should do his duly uninfluenced by any private considerations. (Hess.)
Air. KE:TH DOUGLAS praented a petition from the ioha..
bitants of Belgrave-squarc, complaining a additional postage on their
letter.. He thought the Post-office should not make any additional
charge.
Lord ALTHORP said, the greatest economy should be observed in
the Post-office, but certainly the duty should be performed in the
manner most advantageous to the public. The subject was now
under consideration, and he hoped, before they next met, it would
be decided.

Mr. TINNANT presented a petition (torn St. Alban's, for Pulls.
mentary Reform.
Sir A. CHICHESTER presented a petition from Belfast, for a re.
peal of the duty on sea.bome coal.
Mr. RUTHVEN asked whether a Master in Chancery (Mr. Eden,
now Lord Henley), now that he was a Peer, would be continued a Mas.
ter in Chancery ?
Lord ALTHORP replied, that he was not aware of there being any
thing illegal in the prevent occupant continuing the appointment : if it
vim a question of privilege, the question was not for that House.
Colonel SIBTHORP asked, whether the offices of Treasurer of the
Ordnance and Clerk of the Seisenea were to be continued ?
Lord ALTHORP replied, that the subject was under the considera-
tion of Government.

Alt. FERGUSON protested against asking Government questions
respecting their intentions of abolishing ofilces before it was possible
they could be prepared to answer.—(Hear.)
Mr. RUTHVEN said he should, after the Holidays, bring forward
the subject of the Muter in Chancery, now a Peer.
Sir k. SUGDEN said there could be no possible objection to the
Noble Lord's continuing to discharge the duties of his °Mee.
Lord R. SOMERSLT presented a petition from Cheltenham for
the repeal of the house and window tax.
Lord ALTHORP said he rose to propose a motion for the adjourn.
ment of the house. It was intended that the house should adjourn to
the Bth of February ; but on consideration, it was thought better to ad-
oten to Thursday, the 3d of February, to which he thought there could
be no objection ; and as they would be able to proceed to business at
once, he had no doubt they should get through the business of the ses-
sion in good time ; and though some might think the house should be
kept sitting in consequence of the state of the country, lie thought that
was also a reason why hon. gentlemen should be allowed to return to
their counties. The noble bid moved that the house, at its rising, do
adjourn to Thursday, the 3d of February.
General OASCOYNE said, in the present state of this country and
of the Continent, he thought the adjournment should be shorter. He
would have no objection to a short adjournment, suppose a fortnight or
three weeks, with an understanding that if nothing occurred to require
the attention of parliament in the interim the house should not meet.
If they adjourned foe the longer period there was no means of
their meeting should circumstances require it.
Colonel SIBTHORP moeurred in the opinion of the Gallant Gene-
' eel. They were called together because R was necessary, and it was
equally necessary that they eirsuM centime sitting. They had many
petitions to hear, and siseds• WWI 10 betide, which would occupy
much of their time, sod be drought dreg Astrid continue at their post,
though be had peat esolidenes in his Jile's Ministers.
Mr. LONG WELLIGILIT mid Ms Majesty's Government seemed
to be in 'be rem of the here and rimy Needs; en one aide there Well ,
premises elmEdstab , bat none Isms& based to take them up. If
the hinds* was really laths ibenght, fer sirs , they
shoal sive fee ea sheet time ilk silent emedienes, due, till is war,

seen how they wield fulfil the isms they had made. He thought
ministers were sodded to and *ma bins they should re-
ceive it.
Lord 1.. GOWER could not place unlimited confidence in his
h ould not
Majesty's miniesme, bet be
(Hear. thought their mimed of adjournment
s be oppeneL )
Mr. BRISCOS wished is learn at what time ministers meant to
bring forward the implen of parliamentary reform, in which the hopes
and besets of the VINSI were universally embarked. He thought
a day should be Ad Were the House would adjourn. He asked
the question with se unfriendly feeling towards ministers, in whom
he had great confidence.
Lord ALTHORP said be could not at presets same the day ; but
he could assure the hon. genfianan minister* were most anxious to
bring the question before the house, and that it would be submitted
at an early day after the meeting of parliament.
Sir R. VIVIAN suggested that parliament adjouim for a fortnight,
and then, if
necessary to meet, that the government metsiben. form.
lug a house should adjourn again.
Mr. SLANEY wished to ask the noble lord wln.ther Government
had any plan under coosidevation for ameliorating the eloodition of the
labouring poor.
Lord ALTHORP said thei sulea was ocimpjing the serious atten-
tion of Government, and he they would be able to propose some
measure to the house. (Hear,

VAIILLA.
Mr. CA LCRAFT mid an adjournment fora fortnight, as had been
proposed, would excite alarm In this country sod in Europe. (Hear )
He should judge of Ministers by that acts, but be must object to their.
dispensing with the law of the land by a Treasury minute.while Parlia-
ment was sitting t he meant the reduction of the duty on Moine, wit jet
should have been brought before the house.
Mr. SPRING RICE said, the adjournment was made en ths
ground that members could twofer a greater benefit on die country by
visiting their counties, than by attending in that house. With regard
to the treasury minute for the reduction of the duty on barilla, there
were various precedents for such proceeding. In 1825, a reduction of
duty on sulphate of quinal took place in precisely the same manner,
while Parliament was bitting. The minute left the whole question to b:
decided by Parliament, taken„ bond for the payment of the present duty,
if the house would not agree to the reduction.
Sir GEOlt GE CLERK said, the precedent adduced was no justi-
fication of the reduction of the duty on barna, to the prejudice of tor
important home manufoctute. When ministers had dispensed with
the law to admit corn witheut the payment of the legal duties to pre.
vent a scarcity, they thought it necessary to call Parliament together to
pass a bill of indemnity ; and he thought minister, should now ask for
a hill of indemnity.
Mr. ROBINSON thought the measure most objectionable, and was
confident it gave an unfair advantage to Individuals, and if government
did not disavow the intention of repealing such an Act, he should give
notice of a motion to restrain them. He hoped the Chancellor of the
Exchequer would bring on the Budget at an early day, and that he would
lay a large portion of the taxation of the country on property.
Lord A LTHORP said, what was called the budget could ro: be
brought on before the estimates were voted; but he would take a very
early day, after the recess, of laying before the house the financial mea-
sures of the present government. With tespict to the Hernia question
he had no objection to say that it could only be justified by the peculiar
circumstances of the case, and should not be brought into preent.
The motion of adjournment was then agreed to.
COBBETT's et:OISTES.
Mr. TREVOR said, he was sorry the question of which he had given
notice was not brought before the house by sonic more able otember.
Whether the writer of the publication he was now about to read to th •
house had kept within the bounds of the law, he had not the I,:• I
knowledge to determine ; but he was confident his object was to ext. t •
agitation and confusion throughout the country. The writer in the
sage he should first read to the house said, " The parsons were
their tithes, but it came from them like drops of blood from their 11..‘-.•.
The people were told their acts did no good ; but they knew better,
found after they had destroyed corn they got more food. They also Li t w
that tithes took food from the people, and were spent in a ira;.i.t r
generally injurious to the labourers." He would ask for w:tat
purpose could such publications be circulated, but to excite discontent
and tumult. The writer seeded to say, " After the fires the N.a-
gistrates met and took care of the labourers into consideration,
which they never thought of before the fires blued." He said " The
acts of the labourer, were unlawful in themselves ' • but the law or
England, of God and man, allowed man to take food, rather than
perish for want of it." He then says, " The people are actually in
that state. The pariah allowance is slow starvation. The allowance to
a labourer is less than half that to a felon in gaol." He would ask the
House whether it war possible that • person only capable of reedit g
such pages would not be driven by them to acts of lawless
The entice then said, " The rioters had in no instance been cruel ;
they had in no case taken blood, or inflicted personal violence ; they
only took the food they had a right to, and for want of which they
were perishing." He could not express his astonishment at the socia-
-1 city of the man who could address such language to a d summon ti
people. (Hear, bear.) At a time when special commissions were st:.t
to the country to try offenders, and the Government were inquiring into
the best metals of alleviating such distress. If such publications were
allowed to circulate, all the efforts of the Legislature would be iniffce-
tual to produce content. He religiously believed that it was to snot
publications that all the evils of the country were owing. It was the
opinion of Mr. Banks and Lord Grenville that it was to such publica.
tions the French revolution was to be attributed. To the misled in-
dividuals who had forfeited their lives by violating the laws, he
could extend compassion, but not to the writer by whom they were
instigated. ( Hear, hear.) It was difficult to know how to act with
such a writer. A noble and learned lord had said he considered
the present state of the country but a passing cloud. He feared it
was a cloud that would burst with horror on their beads. He knew it
might be said that by bringing such publications before the House their
circulation was increased.—(Hear, bear.)--He could not consent to that
reasoning—the evil if neglected might become Incurable. He was
aware he had undertaken a moat difficult task, but if such publicatit as
were not cheked Ire was confident they would reduce the country to a
chaos. He would ask any man whether there could be any doubt that
theas
sages he had read were intended to excite the people to violations
of the law. He had the best feelings towards his Majesty's libikarts.
It was not for him to devise a remedy ; but he felt that be was
ing an important duty by bringing the subject before the
(Hear, hear.) The Hon. Gentleman concluded by moving that *pith.
lication called Cabbage. Re:aster, dated 11th December, is a mants
and scandalous libel, inconsistent with the principles under width the
country is governed, an audacious insult on the members of the Clisseit
establishment, and subversive of the fundamental laws of the kblilem,
and tending to anarchy and sedition.
Mr. BULLER said that the hon. gentleman could not mere con-
demn the conduct of the Attorney-General in not prosecuting, thowire
applauded it; besides the impropriety of running the risk of an empties
tal, the libel law was unpopular, and should be dispensed with as mush
as possible. He was for putting down ignorance by knowledge, and not
for bringing foolish expressions under public notice by means of a pro.
secution.
Lord ALTHOMP regretted that the subject should have been
brought before the house. A libel was better disposed of when left to
the discretion of ministers, than by being made the subject of a discus-
sion in that house. The better course was ever to wait, and afterwards
censure a government for not having prosecuted. If ministers
the confidence of the house, the house would not interfere, buttu2setll
subject to their discretion. He hoped they deserved that esirlidenee— the
apprehension of government having a reluctance for a just tion
should be allayed by the fact that one prosecution bed bean =ined
on by the Attorney.GeneraL (Ha; hear.) With r to the
paper which was the subject of the discussim, he should abelda from
' adverting to it, and from saying whether government thought it a libel
or not—whether they intended to prosecute or sot. Foe the last twenty
ilyear we had not known the house to call a goverment to proseente,
unless its own privileges were concerned. He did not dewy the right
of the house to adhere to the present motion, but if the subject should
at any time be left to the discretion of government, in a crisis like the
present it was most essential that it should be se in, There were
many considerations involved in the subject which could not be dies.
cussed in a popular assembly without the most mischievous cootie.
quences, on which it was better to avoid making the house give an
opinion. He did not wish to move a direct negative to the motion,
because the house would then be made to give an opinion on the subket
—he should move the previous question.
Mr CROKER said that after the exposition mode by the noble lord,
I after the declaration, that there existed on the pan of government tau
unwillingness to prosecute, when there existed a just cause for proseeti.
tion ; that a just Cause of prosecution had shady Mee Manned. and
since it would be to impede his object fee his boo. (rime to Wog
the question under present eireontstsiteee es a division in that boast-,
he would propose to his bon. friend es withdraw his inetion, at tier
than oblige those who agreed in his principles to him.
Mr. PRICE, (who had seconded the motion) said that state in
Iwhich the public press at present was. was most essiencisoly. if by it
prosecution a libel was brought under public notice, at least the law
was not impunity, and by one just and severe example, tea
thousand libels might be stopped. If they wished for a salutary
freedom of the press, It was absolutely Osessosry t ItentrOul its been-
tiousness.
Lord NOR REFS said, that the distress tithe mantel was the great
engine by which the prow was enabled to set en the minds of the
He hoped that during the was goverment would take that
into consideration ; when the people amp that they were the MOM of
the government's solicitude, sash publieations as the present was li peso
unheeded. •
Mr. TREVOR then withdrew Grounds&
Mr. PERCEVAL rise to give nodes that as the NAM opposite.
nitnewely,
fest y, ohm the rases, be shoal/ mom that a daiLbLempriteistethe gc.
thmhighout the ingdom. (A
Mr. FITZGERALk D, is hob y saints relating
to the oilleo of if lee-Treasasee is leslaad, mid diet he sweeklaphi the
clamour raised against that office as founded in ipwmse, and im
lines as improper. The unarms which Ito raked Ae dealt prom that
the ollise which he had bdd was eel, se had bees edlllag *WIMP 1 bet

T

i-Es• ,
•-•••
• '.' „.
••.•
• -

• bide4ontrare, a highly necessary oilier, a laborious and an economical
one. It was important that the person who was entrusted with the su-
pervision of the revenues of Ireland, should have an official place in that
The office was the last one which naturally was given to an
Irishman, and it should not have been abolished when there was an un-
fortunate opinion prevalent in Ireland, that Irishmen were debarred
from promotion.
Lord ALTHORP said. that it had always been his opinion that the
office was unnecessary ; the whole duties connected with which were
conducted by the chief clerk. In the course of his experience he had
never seen that any great advantage arose from the connection between
the vice.ueasurer and that house. (Hear.) He regretted that allusion
should have been made to the opinion of distinctions being made be-
tween Irishmen and Englishmen. He hoped the time would soon come
when no distinction would he observed between an Englishman and an
Irishman; and when each could hold an oil/etas naturally in one coun-
try as in the other. In saying this, lie had, of course, no ojection to the
motion.
Mr. HUME expressed his cont
subject of the vice.treasuryship.
The motion was then agreed to
Mr. HUME rose to move for a return of the diferent duties con-
nected with the office of Recorder in Dublin. When the Recorder had
to sit every Tuesday and Wednesday at the Sessions Court, besides other
important duties, he asked how could he perform at the same t ime the
duties of a Recorder and a Member of that house ? He knew that he
was not appointed ao government, but when a person received 1,6001.
a '.ear of the public money, the public had a tight to require that he
should do his duty.
After a few words from Mr. Lefroy, O'Gorman Mahon, Lord Tulle-
more, and Mr. Hume, the motion was agreed to.
Mr. HUME moved for certain financial returns connected with the
Canada Company. Ile should take that occasion to express a hope that
government would take the unsatisfactory state of Canada into its
consideration.
Lord HOW ICK said the subject was under the serious consideta-
tion of the noble lord at the head of the colonial department.
After a few words from Mr. H. TWISS the returns were ordered.
Mr. HUME, in risin4 to move for a return of New South Wales
pensions granted since 1315, said, that when on a former occasion he
had stated that the pensions for that colony amounted to 30,0001. he was
not believed ; he had now,howcver, reason to believe that that calculation
was under the real amount of the pensions. (Hear, hear.) The
causes of the unsatisfactory state of that colony should be inquired
into ; if properly governed, if governed by a civil instead of a
military government, it might be able, instead of calling upon us, to
maintain itself by its own resources. If no favourable change took
place in the government of the colony, it should be his duty, after the
recess, to bring before the house a motion connected with two grave
charges brought against the present Governor. He should add that he
had heard, that the fines to which the editor of the official Gazette had

with the Last speaker on the

been condemned in seven actions, brought against him by Mr. Hall, the
editor of a newspaper in the colony, and the victim of so many official
prosecutions, had bean paid out of the public money.
Lord HOWICK did not deny that great excitement and party spirit
existed in New South Wales ; on the charges against General Darling,
he was not yet prepared to offer an opinion. As a serious charge which
Mr. Hall, the Editor of the Sidney Monitor, had made against the
Governor, had been already found by Government to be without the
slightest foundation, it would be the duty of government to receive his
complaints with suspicion.
Mr. H. TWISS said that when he was in office he had often had
similar occasions to find charges brought against the Governor to be
without foundation. The colony being partly composed of convicts
should not be judged of as the people in this country. Though the
Sidney Garrotte might not be wholly exempt from blame, still a more
infamous series of libels than that contained in Mr. Hall's Paper, had
never been put forth. In answer to the objection of no improvement
being made in the administration of the colony, he should say, that
in 1828 a Bill was introduced by which the Governor was to be assisted
by an adviser.
Mr. WARBURTON thought that there had been great oppression
in the colony.
Mr. HUME explained. What he complained of was, that Govern.
menu did not make the individuals come here to substantiate their
charges, which they could not do in New South Wales, where they were
subject to the tear of oppression.
PENSIONS.
Mr. GUEST rose for the purpose of moving for a copy of the war.
rant or other documents, dated sth January, 1823, granting a pension
of 1,2001. to Harriett Arbuthnot, and in making the motion he referred
to several of the pensions that appear in the several pension list returns
recently printed, but in so low and hurried a tone as to be unfortunately
very imperfectly audible in the gallery. He particularly mentioned the
pensions to Lady Hill, Lady Mornington, to the Heathcotes, &c. ob.
serving that he did not blame any particular administration ; he corn.
plained of the system, and in order to bring the matter before the house
to see the nature of these grants, was the object of the present motion.
Mr. HUM R seconded the motion, observing that it was not very
pleasant to bring forward questions of this kind, because they had such
particular reference to persons ; but there was no other way of getting
at grounds for investigation. If this course could be continued—if it
were allowed to give pensions to the wives of members of Parliament,
it was, amongst various objections, a mode of evading the act which
said that members should vacate their seats on deriving emolument
under the crown. He maintained that the warrants for pensions
should be regularly laid on the table ; adding, the pensions had ceased
with the late king. He was decidedly of that opinion ; and he trusted
that the ministers would do no act to alter what he considered to be
the state of pensions. To cut off the pensions, it might be said, would
occasion much distress, but how much distress had the granting of those
pensions occasioned ?
Mr. LENN A RD concurred in the sentiment of the hon. member for
Middlesex, that no pension ought to be granted without the warrant
for the sante being laid upon the table. The Parliament, he thought, hod
been guilty of great error in the arrangement of the civil list, in having
left so much money at the eontroul of Ministers ; but he trusted that
this evil would be hereafter remedied. The English pension list now,
for the first time, was exposed. Many of the pensions were perfectly
unjustifiable;—were they to be continued He admitted the question
was one of very considerable difficulty. In future, he trusted that
the pension lists would be annually laid upon the table. Had that been
done heretofore, he felt assured that many names now on the list would
never have appeared there. He had heard, with unmingled satisfac-
tion, that the Duchess of Newcastle had resigned her pension. (Hear.)
There were on the lists he was astonished to see, the names of
some of the proudest and oldest nobility. (Hear.) Besides, the
names of several of them appeared in the different lima, so that it
was difficult to find out how much they really received.
Mr. Alderman M'AITH MA N said, if those whose names appeared
on the pension lists were regardless of their own names and characters
he did not see why the Representatives of the people should be squeam-
ish about mentioning them. There was one name that he could not
but particularize. Lord Bathurst had two sinecures, one for 2,7001.
and the other for 10001. and those he had held for years, besides hav-
ing bad public office for many years ; and the name of Bathurst ap-
peared in five places for pensions to the Bathurst family.
Mr. CoURTEN AY said these pensions were granted to the chil-
dren of Alr. Bragge Bathurst, an old public servant, and who had been
fairly worn out in the public service ; he had died in any thing but
affluent circumstances. Lord Bathurst had now only the two nearly
sinecure offices, and his retiring pension of 3,0001. a year.
Mr. E. DOUGLAS said, it would be a very unjust thing to eat off ,
many of the pensions which now stood on the pension list ; it might bel
right to advise his Nlajesty not to grant pensions in future.
Mr. WILKS said, a very great benefit would be derived, if the pen-
sions granted could be regularly known to that house : if that were the
case, they would not be often so improperly imposed, and when received
would be viewed as marks of honour, as recognitions of, or rewards for,
public services. The past, of course, would ptesent difficulty, espe-
cially if the present pensions were to be curtailed; but as to the future,
let Parliantent take care that such abuses do not recur.
MR. ROBINSON, said,. as nobody defended this pension system,
he assumed that all condemned it.—(Hear, hear, and oh ! oh !) He
chose to infer as couch,—(A laugh)--and he should do so still unless
gentlemen got up and defended the system.—(Cheers.) He trusted that
the Parliament would be relieved from the odium of such a system.
Mr. ATTWOOD said, that there was no one who would not con-
demn these proceedings—but he would make this remark to the govern-
ment--that if they thought that they should relieve the country by their
measures on this subject, by curtailing salaries, they were deluding
themselves and would be deceiving the country. They would then show
that they were not persons fit to meet the present exigencies. It was
strongly rumoured that they had an appeal to the people in reserve.—
Why, what good could that do except to get possession of some votes
from boroughs that might be under the controul of treasury influence ?
Had not the people been very recently appealed to ? So that a few
votes more or less could be the only result of an appeal to the
people ; and by such an act they would only again expose the " dise
graceful parts," of the constitution. If they were to appear to the peo-
ple it mum be on different grounds and with different objects. (Cheers
from the Ministerial benches. They must have measures to relieve the
disturbed, distracted, and almost disorganized country. (Cheers con-
tinued.) If such measures did not succeed, they would have the sa•
attraction of knowing that they had attempted them, and the country
would give them credit for the attempt. He made these observations
with no unftiendly feeling towards the Government; he made them
in the hope that the ministers might not delude themselves. and dr
ceive the country.
Sir 11. INGLIS observed, without expressing any opinion as to the
system, he felt himself bound to say, that no administration had added
less to the pension list than the late administration.
Mt. HERRIES expressed his astoniehment, after what had passed,
that some Member of the Government had not replied to the remarks
that had been made. The Ministers were peculiarly the guardians of
the prerogatives of the Crown ; and yet they had made no reply to the
remarks of those who would have the pensions confounded in one com-
mon mass, and granted or confirmed by the vote of that House. He
would aek the Ministers whether they were pripared to sanction the
doctrine that the !ewer& and pensions, the matters of grate and favour
proceeding from the Crown, should all be regulated by the vote of that I

House ? Was this to be the doctrine of the Ministers? Was that to
be one of the principles guiding the re.adjustment of the Civil List ?
The Right Hon. Bironet (Sir J. Graham) seemed to express his dis-
sent ; he was glad to observe such sign of dissent ; but Members had
stated that such was the course that ought to be pursued regarding pen-
sions in future.—(Cries of " No, no," from Mr. Lennard, and other
Blembers.)--He had understood such to be the character of their ar-
guments—that the pensions ought constantly to undergo the revision of
that House. He felt quite assured that such power could not be safely
withdrawn from the Crown, and the more especially as the Crown did
not retain its hereditary revenues. It would be to consult the interest
of the Crown, and of the country, if the monarchy were to be main-
tained, to secure to the Crown some means of rewarding merit, oft tea
fearing acts of grace and favour according to its own views, but peal.
tively independent of Parliament.
Sir J. GRAHAM said, be was by no means disposed to object to
the latter part of the right hon. gentleman's speech. (Loud cheers.)
He did not think that the crown should be left without funds to re-
ward services; and when the fit occasion arrived, he should be ready
to state to the house his views on this subject. lie must say, however,
that the right hon. gentleman's speech proceeded on a misapprehension
—he would not call it misrepresentation—of the speeches of those who
had preceded him ; the argument had been, that the pensions should be
brought under the frequent cognizance of the house. (Hear, hear.) It
had been maintained that such course would produce a salutary abet s
and In illustration of such argument, it might be repeated that her OHM
the Duchess of Newcastle had surrendered her pension the moment her
being on the list became known. As to noneof the ministers having
spoken, the motion regarded a transaction in 1823, and with which they
had nothing in any shape to do, any more than that they had to do with
the pension granted to the son of a member of the late administration,
or with that to the wife of a legal functionary, granted by the recent
administration. Those matters had been in some degree explained and
defended by one (Mr. Herrin) who, from his long connection with the
Treasury, was best qualified for such task. (Hear and a laugh.) The
Government would endeavour to steer a middle course, acting with a due
regard to the necessities of the people, and the splendour and just rights
and dignity of the Crown, and in pursuing such course the Government
felt assured that their actions would correspond with the feelings of the
best parts of the country. With respect to what had fallen from my hon.
friend, the nieniber for Boroughbridge (Mr. Attwood), and which be
holds out as a repetition of his warning to the ministers (continued tilt
.1. Graham), I cannot pass it without observation. He says he speaks
with no unfriendly feeling towards us. I am bound to believe
him, since he asserts it • but certainly, judging from the warmth
and tone of the honourable member, such description of the warning
might not have occurred to me without his assistance. But what
does the warning amount to ? Why, to speak plainly, my honourable
friend advises the ministers not to think of dissolving the parliament.
Why he should have deemed it requisite to give this warning just now,
I cannot tell ; hut it was perhaps because he must have seen that some
difficulties ha been thrown in the way of the government. However,
I can tell that hon. member and the house, that we shall not be faith.
less to our pledges. We shall endeavour to redeem them fully
and fairly ; and permit me to add, in reply to my hon. friend's
warning, that we shall bring forward our measures before the pre-
sent parliament notwithstanding the opposition we have experiencA
and the prospect of having arrayed against us the representatives of
those boroughs which arc usually influenced by the government.
We shall steadily pursue our course—neither taunts nor threats
shall prevent us from doing what we deem to be our duty ; we shall
bring forward our measures for the eonsideration of this parlia-
ment ; but as measures will not, on the one hand, divert us from our
course, so, on the other hand, we will not tamely submit to defeat.
If we are defeated in this house—if the Parliament reject our mea-
sures, then we will go to the British public, and carry with us
those measures so rejected by the Parliament, and ask for the deo
eision of the public voice on them. We shall rely confidently on
the integrity of our intentions—and confidently shall we then sp.
peal to the country. (Hear, hear, hear.) I, for one, shall feel
the fullest reliance and confidence in this appeal—having the as-
surance that justice will be on our side. (Hear, hear.) But, be
the result what it may, if it be to retain me in office, or to hurl me
from power whether I am on this side or on that side of the house,
whether opposed by an open friend or an open enemy, I shall be pre.
pared to vindicate the Government as having been actuated by a high
and honourable sense of duty. (Three distinct rounds of loud cheers
followed this speech.)
Sir GEORGE CLERK expressed his astonishment at what he had
just heard. Had something occurred to lead the ministers to imagine
that they had lost the confidence of that house ? He could not account for it
otherwise, as he was not aware of any unfair difficulties having been
thrown in the way of Government. He was not aware of any
thing having transpired to show that those who sat near him were
not ready to extend a fair consideration to, and cooperation
in, measures proposed by the Government. With regard to the threat
that had been held out, that there might be an appea to the people, it
ought to be remembered, that circumstances might arise to prevent that
appeal.—( Hear, and a laugh.)
Colonel SIBTHORP praised the manly declaration of the hon. ba-
ronet :it would gratify the country—..it was a just determination to
resolve on going to the people if the parliament failed the government.
Motion agreed to.
Mr. DICK moved, that the petition presented by him on a previous
evening from Sir H. Lees, against the repeal of the oath of abjuration
be printed.
31r. C. W] NN opposed the motion. The printing of seasi petitions
he considered nothing less than saving the individual the expense of
printing it in a pamphlet.
The gallery was then cleared for a division. The numbers were—
For the motion
•
Against it .
Majority against it
GROWTH or TOSACCOIRELAND.

.45
. -41

Lord A LTHORP gave nodes, that he woad postpone the motion on
the subject of growing tobacco in Ireland till Air the recess. He wet
perfectly aware of its justice. He by no means thought of abandoning
the bill.
Lord VALENTIA said, he should oppose the bill in every part.
Mr. HUME said, he should support it in every stage. How could
tobacco be grown with a duty of twelve hundred per cent, except the
Government was ready to abandon the 3,000,0001. duty raised from
tobacco.
All the orders of the day were then postponed till the 4th and 11th
of February.
Mr. O'GORMAN MAHON moved for accounts of the number and
names of the Magistracy in each county of Ireland, distinguishing
those who are clergymen, those who hold situations under the crown,
with the probable amount of the emoluments--those appointed by the
Lord Chancellor.
Lord ALTHORP and Mr. RUTHVEN suggested that the motion
should be withdrawn and notice of it given.
Alt. O'GORMAN DIAHON said, after the disregard and con.
tumely with which the affairs of Ireland were treated in that house
that;night, particularly in the noble lord's notice respecting the growth of
Tobacco, he should, from henceforward, support the Repeal of the
Union, and so should his colleague, or lie should not be member for
Clare ; and next Session they would have fifty Irish members in that
house pledged to the Repeal of the Union.
Lord ALTHOKP said, however much he valued the support of
the hon. gentleman, he valued the approbation of his own feelings still
more, and he must bring forward those measures which he thought
best for the country, even though he should be opposed by die lion.
Gentleman.
Lord PALMERSTON said he could not let the hon. gentleman's
threat pass without some observations. However much Government
might value the support of the hon. gentleman, and of those who came
from the same part of the kingdom, they would never consent to ob-
tain it by a desertion of their duty; and on the question of Repeal of
the Union, he was ready to meet the hon. geAleman whenever he should
bring it forward.
The question was then put, and the motion agreed to.
Mr. HUME said, in consequence of the motion of the Noble Lord,
(Althorp) for the population of Towns, preparatory to a measure for
Parliamentary Retorm, he had been applied to by large districts of the
Metropolis, who thought they had a claim to send members to Par-
liament, to move for Returns of their population. The hoc. gentlemen
moved for a Return of the population of the district of the Tower
Hamlets and the parishes of St. Pancras, Mary-le.bone, and Lam-
beth. ()Mend.

Lord LOWTHER presented three petitions from parishes In West.
moreland, praying that some limits might be fixed to the claims of the
Church. The petitioners said a modus Julien of Tithes had been ans.
blished in their parishes for centuries, and they were now threatened
with law proceedings to set it aside. He wished to ask the learned
member of the Common Law Commission, whether it was intended to
bring in any bill to set limits to those clabniC?
Dlr. CAMPBELL said the heads of the Church had been applied
to on the subject, and but one favourable answer had been returned.
Modusaes had been set aside that had existed five centuries, because it
could nut be proved that they had existed from the time that Richard
the First returned from the Holy Land. There was no other christian
country in the world in which Inaba were not set to the claims of the
church. In this country it was a source of the greatest injustice,
bringing great discredit on the church, and ruin on many a clergyman
who went to law to set aside a modus, and after keeping himself In hot
water failed in the attempt. If the Noble Lord brought in a bill for
setting limits to such claims it should have his support, and If not he
should bring it in himself.
Lord LOWTHER expressed his satisfaction at the measure being
in such good hands, and was confident the learned gentleman would
have the support of the house.