Star.
London, England, 1802-12-28 00:00:00

into the full extent of the ineortvenienees com-
plained of, before they went the length of paffing
an Ad to repeal the Statutes themfelves, which
produced the allaged inconveniencies. His Lord-
-IMp obierved upon the Aa of the gth of Eliza-
beth, and laid he had reafon to believe that the'
regulations of that A& relative to Apprentices,
bad, by mutual agreement, been fettled between
the Manufakfturers and their Journeymen. His
Lordthipinlarged upon thefe topics, and concur-
red in the Motion of the Noble and Learned Lord
on the Woolfack.
Lord Pr LHAM owned that he felt a ccmflderable

degree of conflitutional jcaloufy refpeding any
Bill which, like the prefent, had for its object the
fufpcntion of the exiling laws, and fo far agreed
,with the Noble Earl near him' (Lord Carlifle) in
what he had faid in preference to a Bill of Re-
peal, if, upon due enquiry, it fhould be made out,
that the exifling Ilatutes relative to that very im-
portant branch of manufacture, the Woollen Ma-
nufadure, were produdiye of the inconveniencies
complained of. He Rated the progrcfs of the Bill
through the other Houfe, from what appeared in
the Votes of that Houfe, then on their Lord(hips'
table. He raid it originated in a petition from the
Woollen Manufadurers; which was regularly pre-
fented, and ordered to lie on the table. That it
was referred to a Committee, and upon their Re-
port) motion having been made, leave was given
to bring in a Bill, and the Bill fo introduced was
that then under their Lordfhip's confideration.—
Wkh regard to the conduct of the inferior clays of
workmen employed in the woollen manufacture,
it was true that it had been extremely reproacha-
ble—not tnerely in Wiltfhire, but in Yorkfhire)
and the coherclothing counties. Something, there-
fore, was clearly neceffary to be done to enforce
fubordinat ion and regularity among the workmen.
In confequence of what bad fallen from the Noble
and Learned Lord on the Woolfack, as well as
from the two other Noble and Learned Lords near
him, he had iro objection to the mode of proceed-
ing fuggellcd, viz. that of deferring the Committee
till after the 'Reed's, and then deliberately to dif-
cut; it, and afcertain the fads afferted in the Bill,
but he could not help repeating, that he felt a
confiderable degree Of conftitutional jealoufy about
Bills of that nature.
The LORD CHANCILLOR left the Woolfack to
,explain. He faid, one affertion of fad on which
• the principle of the Bill retied, be was already fuf
ficiently infctmed of, and that was, that there was
not caufe of complaint, of great inconvenience re.
fulting from the regulations and enadments con-
tained in the 22 Ads of Parliament, which the
Bill was to fufpend, but that many of tbofe regu-
lations were actually imptadicable, and the reafon
v.hy he, as an individual, came to the knowledge
of this was, that he had that very morning read
through the 22 flatutes in queftion.
The Bill was read a fecond time and committed
to a Committee of the whole Houfe on the fira
Tuefday after the Recefs.
After waiting till near feven for the return of
- the Navy Commiffioners' Bill from the Commons,
-the Houfe adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.
Mr. SIMMER* having taken the Chair at half-pait diree,aßer
Crone private bufanefs had been gone through, it was ordered that
a New Writ be Med for the Election of a Member for the
Borough of Harwich, in the room of John Robinfoo, Eta de-
ceded. Alto for Gatton, in the County of Sorry, in the room
of one of the Returned Members, who, being chofea for two
places, made his Election for the other.
A Mefage was received from the Lards, returning tb this
Houfe the lrilb Sugar Drawback Bounty Bill, and the kith Pro-
eilion Free Export and Import Bill; and lignifying their Lord-
fhips' agreement 'without any amendments.
The Bill appointing certain Como:Whom:a for executing the
Malt AEI, Winks Ad, fcc. was read a feesod time, and or-
dered to he committed on Tuefday, the tsth of February next.
NAVY REUSE BILE.- •
The ATTORNEY Gasseat. moved the Order of
the Day for taking into coufideration the amend-
ments made in the Upper Houfe, upon the Navy
Abufe Bill.
The Amendments being read the firft time,
The ATTnawit Gan aim. hid' that the Houfe
being now in polleffion of what the Amendments
made by their Lordfhips were ; and feeing, as be
did, that fo far from changing the fpirit and ope-
ration of the Bill, they tended, in point of fth,
rather to give it circa; he fhould not feel it ne-
cefFary to fay any thing farther than he had already
expreffed; on the fubjea of the Bill Welt, but
thould propofe, that this Houfe do adopt the
Amendments, which he now moved might be
read the fecond time.
Mr. KINNAMD•roIe, not to repeat his former
opini-ms on the Bill, which was not now by any
means the fame to which he had on a former se-
c:if:on given his oppofition ; but, to congratulate
the Houfe upon the falutary alterations it had un-
dergone in another Houfe. He was not now afraid
that Minifters would refute to his. inexperience,
-the communicating what meafure of neceffity could
render this Bill naceffary, becaufe his objection to
the mull obnoxious claufes had been done away ;
and he would laugh to km+ the idea of unpopu-
laity, which might have attached to any oppofi-
tion towards a meafure which it was fo much the
fafhion tb approve, fo long as his motives for that
oppofition were founded on confcious reaitude,
and a zealous regard to the Law and Conflitution
of the country. Upon thefe points he was julli-
fied by the Amendments made in the Bill, under
the {bade of a high and venerable authority—the
firll in law, and certainly not the halt in judgment;
and he did heartily agree with the Hop. and
Learned Gentleman in the adoption of thofe
Amendments. He did not °hied to there atm-
tions upon the fame principle as an Hibernian
Gentleman, who Paid he was changed at-nurfe—
for in this, not m was alledged in that ludicrous
cafe, the change was for the better, and not for
the worfe; and he was proud to find, that a prin-
ciple fo obnoxious titan Conflitution, as that of
obliging men to codfeffums an oath for their own
erimmation, had been expunged from this Bill.
He had heard it was whifpered from high autho-
rity, that, not withflanding this falutary alteration,
sins *nuld be found to wring add tuna from
redinagiculprits thofe fetreti of theii pe:
•••• - -•._

Such a declaration, he would fiy, was befitting
no other Judge than a Jeffries ; and he was fure,
would not, •at this time of day, be fupported by a
Britifh Houle of Commons. Notwithflanding that,
to the bill in its prefent shape, he would not give
any oppofition, Rill he did not think it originally
a neceffary meafure, as by the very Patent of the
Admiralty and Navy Boards, ample powers were
given them for examining witneffes upon oath,
touching any end every matter and thing con-
cerning or connected with the Department of the
Navy. That under thefe powers they had aged in
former times, and particularly. in the ler ty to ;
and in confequence of fuch inveftigation, a Mem-
ber of that Houfe, again ft whom charges of pe-
culation and fraud had been proved, was expelled
from his feat. The powers of thofe Boards had
not been lance abridged, but are as ample as ever;
and if Gentlemen would look to the Report of the
Committee of Finance, they would there find a
recommendation, which, upon the avowed prin-
ciple of this bill itfelf, namely, public economy,
was furely entitled to confideration. That Corn.
mittee very jullly obferved, that the full number
ofCommiflioners, which the occafions of war might
render neceffary to the bufinefs of thole Boards;
could not be fo in time of peace, and therefore
recommended to the confideration of the Houfe,
the prudence of reducing the number of thofe
Commiffioners at the conclufion of peace, and
thereby to effea to the \public a confiderable
faving-; whereas the prefent bill, recommended
as it was by the Admiralty Board, fo far from
promoting public economy, by leffening the num-
ber of Commiffioners, already too numerous and
expenfive, goes to the creation of a new Board of
Commiffieners, with an enormous increafe of
public expence. The Hom Member having thought
it neceffary, he raid, to Rate thus much, to thew
that the bill, even with all its falutary amend-
ments, was not in his mind a neceffary meafure,
as ample powers for all its purpofes were already
exifting in competent jurifdidions under the laws
of the land, concluded without any Motion.
Mr. I. Haweres Dimwits (poke atAmelength
in fupport of the Bill, and coincided with the
Aniendments. He praifed, in high terms, the
Noble Lord at the Head of the Admiralty, whofe
zeal for the fervice of his country was not more
marked in thofe valorous achievements by which
he had covered her with laurels, than in this new
inftance of his earneftnefs to economize her re-
f..urces, and check the alarming growth of fraud
and peculation In fo important abranch of the pub-
lic expenditure.
Mr. ForraLanc Paid he was not prefent at the
former difenffions on this Bill ; but having read it
fince, and now heard its Amendments read, he
mutt neverthelefs fay, that even yet it was not
brought to that thape, in all points, to which he
could give his cordial affent. There was one_point-
in particular, which would render the Bill ex-
tremely precarious towards many ignorant and un-
wary perfons, who, under the authority of the
might be interrogated by the Commiffioners. For
although the 'Bat as amended, only allowed the
Comnuffioners to afk hes/ queftions ; and required
not the perfon interrnitted, to give an anfwer to
any queftionthat could tend to criminate himfelf,
or render him infamous ; but the CoMmirsoners,
though in all refpe&s men of high worth and re-
fpedability, yet not being men educated in the
law, or acquainted by experience in the technica-
lity of legal queflionx, might in a dire& and un-
qualified way, put queftions to a perfon examined
before them, not warranted by law, and which .a
Rcfpondent, upon his oath, might feel himfelf
bound to anfwer, though tending diredlir to his
own crimination and mfamy • of which his igna-
ranee or embarraffment might render him wholly
unawares ; and thus a man would be led, contrary
to the avowed fpirit and purpofe of the Bill, to
betray himfelf into the liability of profecution, and
even capital punifhment, againft the fpirir of Bri-
tifh law, which fays, no man flail be obliged to
accufe himfelf. This part of the Bill, therefore,
he particularly objefted to.
Mr. FRANKLYN, in anfwer to the arguments of
the Hon. Member who (poke laf, Paid, that the
objeCtion on which he fo particularly dwelt, if it
was to be allowed any force, would apply as ftrong-
ly again ft the eflablifhed law of this land, and
agamft the uniform praftice of every Court of Law
and Janice in the kingdotn, as againft the prefent
Bill ; inafmuch as it was the ufage of thofe Courts
every day, to interrogate men upon their-oaths,
and force them to confeffions of their own frauds.
That, however, to which he wifhed more particu-
larly to apply himfelf on the prefent occafion, teas
an expreffion which had fallen from the Hon. fem-
ber who commenced this debate, in which he had
compared the powers intended to be given to the
Commiffioners under this Bill, by enabling them to
enforce, if neceffary, confeffions of fraud fronrthe
guilty, to the powers affumed by the Star Chan-
her. Before the Him. Menlber ventured to adopt
a phrafe of this kind, or to affimilate an whole-
fome and neceffary authority for the detedion and
prevention of fraud, to that tribunal, fo odious to
a Britifh people, and repugnant to every principle
of our Conattution, he ought to have refleited on
the obvious tendency of fuch language in that Pub-
lic AfTembly, upon whofe proceedings the public
eye was always'anzionfly chreded ; and the public
mind but too apt, in many inaances, to mikoft-
(true or mikonceive • more efpecially if mifrepre-
tented by unfounded affertions, and unbecoming
phrafes ufed by its own Members, and within its
own walls. Where, he would Mk, was the feature
of ftmilitude to be traced between the powers ea"
Board of Commiffioners,conftituted and authorifed
by Parliament to enquire into, deted, and check,
a'public and flagitious fyftem of fraud, not by pu-
nifbment, which they were not empowered to in-
Rid, but by reporting to that Houk the refult of
their enquiries, and leaving it for that Houle to
(uggeft a remedy ; and a tribunal unknown to the
Conti itution,, and unauthorifed- by Parliament, at-
fuming powers to extort confelfion,, and to inflid
terrible pains and penalties? It • was not their
powers of enquiry which rendered them to-formi-
dable, but the heavy fines and puniftnnent they nf-
fume to impede. He was ready to admiktbeprin-
_