Star.
London, England, 1831-08-17 00:00:00

BELGIUM.

The Berl of Or FORD expressed a hope that the noble
earl at the head of his Majesty's government would be dis.
posed to answer two or three questions in a manner which
might justify the expectation the noble earl himself had
held out to the country. The present state of public affairs
and especially the news which had lately arrived from
France, rendered his application to the noble earl a matter
of importance. The question he intended to put had relit-
axon to the oceapatien of Belgium by the French army, and
the fortresses which had been consigned by the four great
powers to destruction. In alluding to those topics, he could
rot avoid adverting to what passed on a former oecasion,
wizen the noble earl stated that France was called upon to
resist a breach of the armistice between Holland and Bel-
gium. That armistice he really believed, had never ex-
isttd. (Hear, hear,) Curious papers had been lately
published in France—papers which bore an official vamp.
Tney putpartcd to be the speeches of French Minis:ers.
.mt: were completely at variance with the statements made In
that ins :se by his Majesty's government. The noble earl
then ale, rted :o the diplomatic proceedings which had taker
).I..ce on the affairs of Bollard and Bel;ium, and drew an
in.-entice that ro armistice had been made : that, be the eaSe
how it might, and the French in Belgium, it was necessary
to ask the 'table cad what had brought them there ? They
piglit to know on what ground the French army was In Bel.
The rolae earl had said when the Dutch troops
% u:Alrese to ,he miter side of the frontier it was not the in.
:c,:tain of t:.e French to remain in Belgium; he wished,
'b.:sabre, to elk whether they would withdraw when that
object was accotnplished. Another question was of great
itap.wtance to this country, as it had relation to the trade of
tax 11..Itic. He alluded to the fortresses which had lean
r.iseti at the expense of ilolland. and were ordered to he de-
molished witlituir any refererce to Holland on thy soltjoct.
although the Dutch govet omen* had the greaten to e
consulted. Ht wished to hear from the roll! earl %. hat :or.
trains were to be dismantled ?

Earl G REY.— loy lords, I rise to protest against the in-
. eilivenience of this course of proceeding. I must protest
still more strongly against the unprecedented manner in
...etch the noble esti has conducted himself towards me in
n y official &orlon. lam here as minister of the crown to
answer questions ; but it has been usual in courtesy from one
veer to another, if hr means to bring forward any motion,
tortodo it without notice. Here, my lords, there is no no.
rce. The noble earl, in asking questions, has gone through
is statement of all that has occurred in Belgium ;—a state.
r:ent, I must say, in complete error ; but into that state-
ment I will ant follow the noble earl, He wishes to know for
what purpz'se the French army entered Belgium. It was to
repel the invasion of Belgium by the Dutch. It was also to
support that armistice which the 'table earl says never was en-
tered into, but which I say was indefinitely established. It
was to repel an attack and maintain the armistice. He asks
me whether the French army will return when the object is
• accomplished. My lords, Is it for me to state what others
will do, or what they will not do. I will not pledge
myself ; but if the noble earl asks me whether this country
has a right to expect the French army will retreat after that
object is accomplished—l say we have the best right to ex-
pect it. (Hear, hear.) Now, with respect to speeches made
it another country, I would ask the noble lord whether he
thinks any explanation upon a subject of that nature can be
reasonably required. Suppose it happens that a Minister's
speech in France having been published, contained declan-
tlat:S contrary to what this country has a right to expect. I
pot it hypothetically, and I ask whether it can furnish a
state of things upon which a minister can ground inquiry ?
The last question put by the noble earl applied to the for-
tresses, and he asks what fortresses are to be dismantled ?
I answer, nothisig has yet been determined. All that is re-
solved upon is, Ant certain fortresses should be dismantled,
hue what these fortresses are, to this hour is nut determined
--as to any other question relating to this subject, I have nu
answer to give.
The Earl of ORFORD said a few words in explanation.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said he derived
gree satisfscsion nom the renewed assurances that the occu.
is. .on of B.:lgium would not last longer than the re-entry
f the Dutch into their own territory. That assurance would
make him refrain from asking any question at that time. He
thro.ght the noble Earl had done right in calling the often.
tam of the hoes, and the country to the difference between
the declarations of ministers in that house and the speeches
of the ministers of France. It would convince the noble
1• al at the lead of the government, that they were alive to
it responsibili y as to declarations which might not be
wirtatt4.:l by the dec:arations of foreign powers.
The Dike of WELLINGTON said his noble friend ap-
pear d to lee: anxiety in consequence of what appealed .n
public pa; ors ; but nothing that ministers could say in Pals,
or in that heu•c, could take away the signatures of letters:
Governments relied on official docuinects affixed to protocols.
Al hough his noble friend might think the declarations to
with he alluded of importance, they did not affect diplo-
soatic proceedings.
Ea:l GitEY said the Noble Duke had anticipated the re-
ns:vie he was prepared to make. They were to be contra.
dctd by official documents. He was responsible in that
ft acas, as a man of honour for what lie sated, and he had
vattti what occurred to hi:n as to the expectation which this
centaur bad a right to entertain. Those were the terms
Ise used. and the Noble Earl repeated them, that he might
i,1,1 be pledged to any other statement, made by the Noble
Marquis. Ile deprecated the bringing forward of such dis-
cussions in' the present state of the negotiations. In his
opinion no comae could be better chosen than that pursued
by Noble Lords on the other side of the House, for the in-
tetruption and throwing of difficulties in the way of the
compicion of those negotiations.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, he had made
Isis observations from facts under the signatures of protocols.
Gleat contradiction had occurred among alinisten on the
affairs of Belgium, and the Noble Lord could not find fault
with hint for bringing the circumstances under the attention
of that House.

The subject then dropped.
The Marquis of SALISBURY presented a petition
from Hertford, praying for the extension of the elective
flanchise.

"'CATON'S DIVORCE DILL.

The LORD CHANCELLOR called the attention of
the house to the facts in this case, so remarkable for immo-
rality ; alter which the house adjourned till Thursday.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

THE CARPENTERS' PETITION.
---

Mr. HUNT presented a petition from the unemployed
carpenters and joiners of the metropolis, agreed to at a public
meeting. They stated that upwards of 12,000 carpenters in
the metropolis were unemployed, chiefly on account of the
use of machinery, and from the use of cast iron in building
houses, in lieu of wood. They prayed the house to vote a
sum of money for the erection of public building., as a
means of givinq them employment, and they also prayed for
an eitten4itin of the elective franchise.

Sir C. BU a RI.LL said, if any distress existed amongst
the tradesmen in quertion, it was owing to combination.
Mr. HUNT was Informed that the petitioners did not
bel.ing to any club of the kind alluded to. The hon. mem-
b_r protenfril a petition from Bath, praying for a reduction
of the stand.ng army, and also of taxation.
Mr. &8181, presented petitions from places in Ireland,
against the grant to the Kildare-street Society.
Lord MILTON presented a petition from the Lord
Mayor and Corporation of the city of Dublin, praying that

• Board of unpaid Commissioners should be appointed to sit
in Dublin, to superintend the public works in Ireland, and
to give information to that house on matters connected with
the interests of that country.
Mr. ORATTAN supported the forayer of the petition,
and thought that the greatest benefit would result to Ire-
land b the establishment of the Board of Commissioners
alluded to in the petition. He thought such a Board would
save the house a great deal of notable, by giving valuable
information to it on matters with which ate home was at
present perfectly unacquainted.
Colonel CONNOLLY was in favour of the establish-
ment of the Board alluded to by the petitioners. If it was
not es useful as it was expected it would oe, it could be dis-
solved.
Mr. WYSE supported the prayer of the petition, and
said that he was well satisfied that the House would find
several high-minded gentlemen tbat would give ti er ser-
vices gratuitously for the benefit of Inland. Sue. a Board
was recess:Ty, to collect information to enable that Htrtt-e to
legi.late.
MT. O'CONNF.LL said that the testimony of the p- ti-
tioncrs was a complete proof of the eistress of I“ 1at..% This
applies ion for boards showed the necessity of a loco; legis-
lature. A Beard would be, in point of fact, a local
lature, without responsibility.
Col. TORII ENS contended that if a repeal of the Union
took plice, and that twat independent legislators existed io
inland and in England, no permanent connexion could
exist between the two countries.

Mr. CRA MPTON said that the prayer of the petition
deserved the most strlous consideration of that house. Those
who advocated the Union. unknowingly, he admitted, were
advocating a measure which would inevitably lead to the
injury of both countries.
Lord MILTON said that Ireland had not means within
it to make it a manufacturing country, although he admitted
that it had comidcrable means to make it a flourishing agri-
cultural and commercial country.
CoL TRENCH was of a similar opinion with the noble
lord.
Mr. O'CONNELL said that Ireland had considerable re-
sources by means of wat. r power, for ate impelling of ma-
chinery. Ile contended that it was rot incompatible wish
the existence of a complete connexion between Ireland and
this country, for the former country to possess an indepen-
dent legislature.
Ailer a few observations from Sir G. ROSE and Lord
Mtt.TON. the petition was ordered to be printed.
Mr. EWART presented a petition ;loin Liverpool,
against the renewal cf tha Let for pettnittiog foreign sugar to
be refined.

➢lr. TAIXOT prosr:m.d a petition from Swansea: in fa-
vour ol- Reform MIL

M. 17,L AKE NET presented a pttition from a distiller
residlng in Carlow, praying that the distillers of Ireland
.nay allowed the drawback upon malt used in distillation.
The lion. member also presentee: a petition front Carlow,
a:r.iiist the grant to the Kildare-street Society.
M. 11A LIOUtt presented a petition from Htuldington,
a3aiast the use of rnultratses Ist diatilla.ion.
Mr. O'CONNELL presented two petitions from Water-
fend and Tipperary. egaintt the gram to he Kildare-since
Society; a similar pethion from a parish in Tyrone. Also,
petition from Newry, to the sante effect. Also a similar
petition from Clomnel. Also a petition from pieces ie
Kilkenny, prayitsa that she ecclesiastical property of Ire.
land might be taken into thc. hands of the Government, to
pay the working part of the Protestant clergy. The pea-
*ism also called upon the house so interpose between the
petitioners and the tithe system.
Mr. CRAMPTON cautioned the house against piecing
to much conlidenee in the •etatemeitts made by petitioners
from Ireland. The Hon. Member allittled to the statement
made by the petitioners front Kilkenny, respecting the trial
of she persons connected with the disturbances in Kilkenny,
relatire to tithes. He read letters from the Attorney Gene.
rah, and from Mr. Kimmis, from which it appeared that the
Jury were not all Protestants, there was one Catholic upon
it. The Ca.holies, too, on the panel were not challenged.
He also referred to the cast of char: eh. and said that
the representation made on the subject was very much ex-
aggerated.
Mr. O'CONNELL repeated the statement which be
matte on a rormer night tespecting Maheragh. A number
of Catholics belonging to that village were sentenced to six
months' imprisonntent, for !making an Orangeman's drum ;
while a number of Orangemen, who stacked the village in
question, burred several halms, and stalshed various per.
sons. were no, even apprehended. He complained of Go-
vernment not instituting an inquiry into the matter. The
representations made by him relative to the Kilkenny stair,
were made rpon the best authority ; and be was borne out
, by the statement of the noble lord (lluncannon) the member
fur Kilkenny.
Mr. CRAMPTON did not mean to impugn the veracity
of the hon. member for Kerry, but he thought be ought
to be more cautious in giving credit to accounts sent to him.
Mr. SHIN( said it would be Warg on the part of the
members of the government, if .hey sottLill. to improve the
system complained of in Ireland, rather than employing I
themselves in finding out reasons for justifying it.
After a few words from Sir R. 'stems and Mr. O'Cox-
NELE._

Mr. F. LEFROY justified tl•e course adopted by the
Solicitor-Citmeral for Ireland, in replying to exaggerated
statements.

Mt. O'CONNELL prevented a petition from Carrick-
on•Sulr, praying that the yeomanry might be disbanded.
Lord STORMONT moved that a new writ be issued for
Armagh, in the room of Lord Ingestrie, who had accepted
the Chiltern Hundreds.

Sir G. CLERK complained of no return being made of
the election for the borough of Grimsby. The election
took place, and the gentlemen returned arrived in town
to take their seats in that House, but., upon going to
t::e Crown Office, they found that no return had been
made. This was an important subject, connected as it
tress with the privileges of Parliament, and deserved the
-ttention of the House. He moved that the D:puty Clerk
of the Crown do attend the House forthwith, to state, if he
could, the reason why a return had not been made of the
G: hay election.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER fully
agreed in the course adopted by the horn, member, because
it was quite right that the house should know if any trick
had been adopted respecting this return. (Hear.)
The Deputy Clink of the Crown was called in, when he
informed the house that no return has as yet been made re-
specting the Grimsby election.
Sir G. CLERK then moved that the high sheriff of Lin-
coln, and the returning officer of Grimsby, be ordered to
attend this house on Friday next.
After a few observations from Lord Althorp, Sir T. Fre.
mantle, and Sir J. Wrottesley, the motion was agreed to.
Ale. KENNEDY begged to put a question to the Lord
Advocate respecting disturbances that took place in Ayrshire
on the lath of July. The question he wished to ask was,
did certain high persons, not connected with Ayrshire at
all, interfere with respect to the liberation of persons under
a charge of murder, and for which they were shortly to be
tried ?

The LOUD ADVOCATE said he had reason to believe
that interference had been made respecting persons who were
then under a charge for murder. He did not, however,
mean to say that the interference was improper.
Mr. HUME postponed his motion respecting the bishop-
rick of Dere), for one week, and he expresseit a hope that the
see would not be filled up in the meantime. The hon. mem-
ber also gave notice that be would move for certain returns
connected with public works in Ireland
Upon the motion that the house resolve itself into a com-
mittee upon the reform bill,
Lord VALLETORT called the attention of the house to
a most important subject. It was this, that the French
Sect, since its attace upon Lisbon, had carried 'away • Por.
tuguese vessel, containing a number of Portuguese. He
hoped that a clear and satisfactory answer would be given to
this que.tion. If not, ha would just say that the feet un-
der Sir E. Codrington would have been more advantageously
engaged for the honour of England, if it were resisting this
invasion, than by lying in the Downs, to force an ancient
ally into a particular course against his will.
Lord PALAIERSTON said the Noble Lord was cor-
rectly informed. All the Portuguese vessels in the T•gus
struck to the French fleet, and the latter considered that
those vessels were prises of war, and consequently captured
them.

Mr. COURTEN A begged to know if the war upon
Portugal had been an aggressive war ?
Lord PALMERSTON objected to this system of inter-
rogation. if a motion were made, his Majesty's Govern-
ment would be able to show that they had maintained the
honour and dignity of the country.
Mr. COURTENAY would give ministers an opportunity
of defending themselves.
Upon the question being put, that the House go into
Committee,
Mr. PAGET put same questions relative to the precincts
of the town of Leicester.