Star.
London, England, 1824-03-16 00:00:00

task of calling the attention of their Lordships to the
Bert important point—the fair question of expediency
in the full exercise of right, as between the-Old World
and the New World ; and here, in his opinion, it amounted
• ) .an obligation on their Lordships, in the changed
uJ changing state of affairs, to acknowledge at once,
lathoutahe least hesitation, the South American States. I
Asst hereslet their Lordships first ask themselves, with
respect to the Old World, if it offered at the present time
any sort of temptation of facility for strengthening, or
even for preserving, the relative relations of States
He would conjure their Lordships not to persist in de-
ceiving themselves on this subject, by supposing that.
this country was in the same situation with-respect to
real power, as upon the close of that sanguinary war
which terminated the French Revolution. It had always
been.part of our policy, and an important part of that
policy it was, to connect this country With some leading
Military-Continental Power, in order to assist us in
preserving the independence of the snraller Sta.'s when
necessary, and in resisting the aggression of the Great
Powers, as essential and indispensable to the true equi
librium of the European system. Ile needed not remind
their Lordships, at this
,moment, that not merely one
Power had deserted this noble post, but he lamented to
say that all the Great Powers were engaged in a Con-
federacy, to which (Gm) be thanked !) this country never
had, and he hoped never would, become a party. It
was not for him to apprise their Lordships that about
700,000'men were armed in readiness to osipose and
suppriss the liberties of the civilized world, if called
out for that purpose. Such was the dreadful and ofai-1
nous character of. that Confederation now maintained
by what were called the Great Powers-ra Confedera-
tion not to be looked for in speculation or hypothesis,
but seen during four years in its sad results. Austria
had thus been enabled to overrun Italy, and Spain
was subdued by the armies of France, till all the coun-
tries of Europe were liable to have their Governments'
altered or modified at the caprice of certain Great
Powers. Such had become our relative situation in Eu-
rope, and their Lordships could not picture to themselves
a more serious state of things, which menaced with undis-1
tinguishing destruction all that dignified'the European'
States. The policy of this country was to prevent the ef-
fects of this military system, to prevent those changes
with which the happiness or misery of nations was etin-
fleeted, and to look to every quarter where it Could de-
rive increase of power. Where was 'that power to
tie
found ? In the extended fields, and in the extended
commerce of. South America. Where could it be found
without connection with .the existing Governmeat of
North America, which had laid the foundation of much
future prosperity ? He hardly thought it necessary to
detain their Lordships in brder to point out the pro-
bable extent of the increase of power which would thus
be obtained. Tangible proofs had already been given.
When the trade was opened in 1822, the exports averaged
upwards of three millions ; but in 1823, there was an
increase of £640,000; and if the.accounts of 1823 were
produced, he had no doubt that they would exhibit a
still greater increase. He would now advert to the.ex-
tended exportation which might take place if -the
country were on a more settled basis; but, in passing,
he could not help noticing the rapid effects which com-
merce produced oretrie activity of a per*. 'Within a
year and a half after the ports of South America were
opened, here were exports from the South of Ireland,
by means of which that great dense population, who
had no mai ket in the demand of this country, were
made to minister to the wants of South America. He
. would not allude to the effects which the growth of in-
dependence would have on these States—(lle.st, hear)
—but he looked to its influence upon this country. The
separation of South America from Spain would give
rise to 'advantages as great as thoie which had resulted.
from the independence et North Anterica-s-ithat inde-'
pei,denee so much dreaded and so long thviarted. He
held in his hand a statement of the amount' of exports
to North America previous to the itevolution, led, the
amount within eight years afterwards. • From that
statewent it would be seen that, in the first of the eighth
year, viz. from 176 G so 1773, the exports from this
country, ustwithstanding all the prohibitions and re-
strictions sshich crowded the Statute Book, amounted
in value to 4,01,000 ; and. within the last three years
raiding at 1822, the amount was t 6,905,000. So that it
would be seen that.wealth and commerce had increased
to three times, the' amount after The independence' 'of
Ninth America was established. lie Mide this state-
ment to thew how false the Colonial system was, and
how fiequently the adoption of a more liberal system ,
of policy laid the foundation of
, prOspetity to • thel
mother country. These objects Must be locked at in'
judging of the consequences that would* follow from
the recognition of the South American States. Greater'
advantages might be expected to accrue frota our come
merce with them than with Noith America. The po-
pulation in the United States had increased from two
or three millions to ten millions ; while the population
of thi States of South America and Mexico was equal
to twenty-one millions, and they were capable of an in-
crease to the extent of sixty millions in the course of
forty or fifty years. The soil of South America too was
better, and more productive; and this, with the com-
paratively small number of slaves, was another cause of
superiority. Impressed with these advantages, he put,
it to their Lordships whether there was any room for
hesitation as to the course of policy which ought to be
pursued ? He might be told, and he conceived that it
was the only argument which could be used in opposition
to. his motion, although it was really no argument at
all—that if they were satisfied with the language of
his Majesty's Government, and if the question were still
kept open, why not acquiesce in some further delay.
He would answer, that if their Lordships were satisfied
that they possessed the right to acknowledge the States
of South America—lf they were satisfied that practical'
considerations of expediency, bearing on the immediate
interests of this country, offered the strongest induce-
ments to connect both together. let the acknowledgment
be made at a time when the full benefit of it may be felt.
To these States such an acknowledgment will be of the
last importauce, as enabling them to compose their dis-
sensions, and giving them that consequence which
. would at present be so serviceable to them. If they
were satisfied with the grounds of expediency and of I
right, why linger at the threshold.when the entrance is
justified by right and demanded by interest ? Why re-
fuse to assist at the birth of independence instead of
waiting till its consummation? He would ask, if that
independence can be prevented ? Whether it can be ra-
tionally expected that
,the Government of Old Spain,
situated akit a is, with foreign army,ia its dominions,
or situated as.it must be when that army is withdrawn,
cap displaY any energy to recover these vast and bound-
less regioas, Which have drank of the waters of free.
dotta It toot as well be expected that the, mighty

streams which flow its that country should be sent back
to(lhe Inowfamentithss whence' tin rane. as that • this,
prOgress of -civilizatiotst andthe tide of happiness call,
be checked fronishore to shore and from moontain tq,
mouatain. The time was whop Old Spain made Mexico
a•mart for its felonies ;• when passages were cut at will 1
through that country, and when the withering effects ofl
its:cruelty were far spread over these cbuntries ; but those
times ate now no more. But although he looked for-
ward with confidence to the accomplishment of the ob-
ject fat-which he contended on 'the partasithis country,
it was not to be done without danger. Some of the
countries of Europe would, he was assured, stand kir-
ward in opposition to the measure, either in the spirit of
open hostility, or in the spirit of concealed attack, and
would employ all thOse holy means which. legitimate
Governments never failed to practisa against the happi-
ness of flee States. Such attempts might be checked,
but they would materially affect this Country. It was to
fortify these States in the best matinee in which we were
able—to give them sanction and stability, that he pro-
posed the present Motion, being confident that it was
not only the best course which could be pursued for the
interests of this country, but ,the fairest course towards
the Governments of Europe, by shewing.theiss our sen-
timents by out actions, and leaving them to their own •
conduct should they differ with us in npinion. Con-
vinced as he WAS that by the concurrence ofspolitical
events, and the influence of all, conciiiesing science, a
great change was abont to take: place jai. the. aspect of
the globe, it was not for him to say. whether these States
might not be more or less slowly.affecied by human pass
sinus and political agitations ; but it was, nevertheless,
the duty of the.Goeesnment to adopt that course which
seemed conducive to the interests of the country. Be-.
fore concluding he ,thought it proper to take notice of
one, and his only objection, to the papers on the table.
haves stated in Mr. Canning's communication with
the Prince de Pcilignac, that "the British Government
absolutely disclaimed, not only any desire of appro.
ptiating to itself any portion of the Spanish Colo-
nies; but any intention forming any political con•
nection, with them." He (Lord Lansdown) did not
wish to prejudge the question of the political relations
.which might arise from our connection with South Ame-
rica; but he saw no reason why the country ShOuld in
Ihnine restrict itself in this manner, or give a pledge to
France for any political connection whatever. The Noble
Marquis concluded. with moving a humble address to
his Majesty, which conveyed an. earnest hope that his
Majesty would be graciously pleased to recognise the in-
dependence of the South 'American States, and establish
a diplomatic intercourse between themand this conntry.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL,rose.—He _said that the
Noble Marquis had laid down some general principles
in the course of his speech, with which he (Lord Liver-
pool) entirely concurred ; but when the Noble Lord en-
tered into details and applied those principles, he did
not seem to have a distinct notion of the principles them-
selves. He (Lord Liverpool) hoped to be able to prove
this inconsistency as he proceeded ; but :in .the ,mean
time he thought it advisable to clear away those parts
' of the address upon which there was no difference of
opinion between the Noble Marquis and himself—and
he might add with airy man of sound and practical ex-
perience. He would. not follow him through the de-
tails of the exports and imports with Spanish America,
for he was ready to4dmit that there was no commerce,
.more important to this country, and more connected
With its best interests; than that between the different
States of America, either North or South. But there
was one fallacy in the pririciple which had been built
upon' this circumstance, which he thought it proper to,
correct. It was nor considered. that ss hen allusion was
made to the•ports of Buenos AyreS, Mexico, or Colom-
bia, a very considerable commerce existed in those coun-
tries, when on the face of the Custom-house books there
was mrappearances of any commerce at all. The same
was the case in the• Commerce with the Brazils; 'and
the reason was, that it was carried on in an indirect and
circuitous manner. The commerce. however, was now
direct; 'and he thOught it therefore the, fairest way of
looking at the • subject, to take ail Amesica together.
'A great drafts** the exports it was known went to the
'West Indies aid to-Canida but in round, numbers he
might state, according to the Offcial Rseterns..that;the
Cernnieice with Ainbricalselded ;shout seventeen mil-
lions,
,while that: with the East: Indies produced. about
five millions. He entirely agreed with.the Noble Lord
upon the advantages of a liberal system. of policy. ,As ,
the' entinneree with
.the American States was uow spade
direct, .tend'as their prosperity was iutreaaing sad mos
incirtale;it wasirhportant, for:this country to have corn-
mertial intercourse with these States. , He also agreed
With the Noble Lord in-thinking that Spain, in, her pre,
sent'condition, had no means of recovering km:Colonies.
But before he proceeded further he (Lord Liverpool)
considered it necessary to call to the recollection of their
Lord ;hips certain circumstances connected with our fot4
mer relations to that country, for without referring tO
those circumstances they could not judge of the station
in which we now stood. • It was well known that long
before the Spanish Revolution in 1808, there was a
strong, a natural feeling that the period was not far dis-
tant when the Colonies would emancipate themselves
from the mother country. It was, indeed, perfectly ob-
vious that whatever relations might have subsisted be-
tween the mother country and her Colonies, these do-
minions, consisting of 16 or 17 millions of people, could
not long be heldin the thraldom in which they now ere.
It would have then been a material question for the Go-
vernment of that country, taking example from us,
prudently and wisely in time 'to have considered, the
propriety of relaxing her monopoly, and establishing a
system in her colonies which would be more compa-
tible to their situation. In 1805, the period is indelible";
in consequence of an aggression. which is without paral-
lel in the history of nations, the people of Spain rose
against the French, and it would be recollected that De-
puties from that natisti arrived in this country. On
that occasion many diffetent opinions were entertained
by different persons upon the line of policy which we
ought to pursue. Some, who. were most jealous .of li-
beral policy, thought that this cduntry ought to sup-
port' the mother country. against. the •French; while
others wished to take advantage of her situation, in or-
der to separate her.from her colonies. But . the more
generous policy prevailed, and the result proved it to be
the most prudent course, as it ultimately led, to the se=
curity of Spain, and to the tranquillity of _the wall
The. two lines' of policy were inconsistent with each
other. Whichever had been adopted, it shouldshave
been fairly audopenly ; and this was the case,: for upon
looking back to the.first speech which,was made uponi
the declaration of this country, it would be. found that
the integrity, of the Spanish Omissions was expressly in-
sured. It shewed Qll what principles, the politics of
Great Britain were bottomed from the beginning ; and
he considered that any attempt to act upon the altcrna-

tive recommended would have been unfair and disten
nest. The Revolution in Spain was
-accompanied by
a Revolution in several, of" the South American States,
but no advantage was taken of it by this country.-.*-.
On the contrary, from 1810, when the first notice was
had of the risings in these Provinces, we offered our
mediation to the Provisional Governments, in order to
attempt a reconciliation between the mother country
and her colonies ; and it was. most material to observe,
that from 1810, and during the whole war, and after it
—whether Spain was governed by a Provisional Junta,
Lby the Cortes, or when the King was restored, that this
country never swerved from its duty or trom sound po-
licy (for they are connected together), but still pursued
its object of reconciling these countries on fair and rea-
sonable principles. But under every system of Govern-
ment Spain declined the mediation of Great Britain.—
There might be reasons in human nature, but he could,
not help remarking, that if there were any difference in.
the pertinacity with which the offers of this country
were received, that was most conspicuous the more Con-
stitutional the Government was. Still this country con-
tin'ied to act in that course; arid when the Congress
was held at Aix-la-Chapelle, she had the support of the
other Powers of Europe. Spain, however, declined all
the good othces.which were proposed ; and this country
did not fail in her efforts sill that time, when she thought
it prudent tn_pause, and to look to her own essential
interests. The motion of the Neble Lords was to ac-
knowledge the.independence of those Colonies; but he
(Lord Liverpool) 'begged their Lordships to consider
what bad been 'done, and what remained to be done,- In
182'2, a Noble Lord, now no more, whose loss will long
be lamented,-.had full instructions upon this ithportant
subject ;,hut bore theNoble,Duke, whom he now saw
in his place:left this country, these instructions were un-
availing. Bet he would allude to a circumstance which
seemed lo have escaped. the Noble Marquis, which
a•monntel, deficto, to an acknowledgment of these Colo-
nies. prtlicthird of the King, an Act was passed, which
gave wall thew pr4iUces the rights of independent States,
—he meant the Navigation Act, in which it was re-af-
firmed as to these provinces and to the United States of
ktnitice;l4lween whom and this country there was com-
mercial intercnnrse,Chat it was. only.to becarried on with
British ships. This was done without questioning the rights
:of the mother country;and Yet it amounted in substance to
an acknowledgment oithese States. This step was corn-
mesmicatetrto Spain and to the other Powers of Europe,
and was followed by a declaration that. other ulterior
steps would be taken, of which due notice would be
' given. From the time of this practical recognition, it
was acknowledged that every advantage, of commerce
had been 21,ivca to this country, and every advantage
also had been conceded-to them. In December, 1822,
it was iniiinated to he the intention of this country to
send Consuls to the different ports of Spanish America.
There Tight have been' a short delay in sending these
Consul?, but he though; it more grievous to suspend
their appointment for a few months, than to make it
during the heat of the contest with France. He would
now look to a more important pea sod, when the French
arms were successful in Spain, and•when the King was
restored. After that event, Government wished to hear
a full.explanation from France withregard to her views
in,South America. it was there also that .Consuls were
appointed,' and sent to their diffel ea destinations;
which, with the acknowledgment of their flag, seemed
to be a complete de jhcto recognition. Joined to thede-
claration of the .President of theUqiced *hates of Arne-,
vice, was the declaration of thii country, that if it re-
mained neutral upon the .contest which might be carried.
en hetweee-Spain and her Colonies, it would not view,
srith indifference the .interferance of an, other nation ;
-and the consequence of. this anntieciation, es was seen
by the.papers on the table, was a complete abjuration
by France. Such being the actual state of the question,
he would ask.---What ,remained to be dune? The ac-
knowledgment of the independence, of any-State could
only be gt.v.on by. an- exercise of the. Roy al Prerogative
in this .country7-(lfear, hear)—Parliament could not
give such an 'acknowledgment,. because the right jay
' with the executive part of the Government. As to-the
opening of a diplomatic intercourse, he (Lord Liver-
pool) thought thailf there was anything peculiar to the
-Crown, it was certainly-the power of judging_ at
.what
Op el:end under what circumstancesohis.onght to take
plaace- , ',Mere may, however, be apathy and indiffe-
Jence,on 'the part of the Crown,. and , then Perlia-
. !mist may be justified in -interfering—(Hear hear)—
but after looking at the papers on the table of the House,
he certainly saw no reason for any special interference.
There :might
,be a thousand reasons, with respect to a
diplomatic intercourse to'indace the Crown, noc to take
immediate steps. He had no desire to conceal hisiiieltun-
der such secret motives. He Would frig), tell the Noble
Lord all he knew and all he felt on this subject. The Noble
Lord had' put. tiro questions..7-the kueition of right, and
the question of expedigicy ; and he had justly said, that
it was necessary to establish the
.point of :right before
judging of the other. Upon the question. of right—a
term of which he did not entirely approve, unless it was
meant to convey, a general *feeling of equity among na-
tions—he (Lord Liverpool) did not think any step ought
to he' taken
_towards acknowledging the independence
oia -Colony where the c3utest between it and the Mo-
ther Caentry.was still :"going on. lie knew that. this
country would thus act diifeiently from what others
had conducted. themselves towards it—(Hear, hear).
The House knew what was the conduct of the branches
of the House of Bourbdn ; they chose, when we had
huge armies in the field, to assist and treat with those
ColOqies with which we were at war. GOD forbid, that
ia'this Christian country we should follow such an
example ! If therefore a contest in arms should be car-
iyinF on, he would not advise a diplomatic intercourse.
' ( Ihe Marquis of LatistrowN stated act oss the table
Ott the contest had cea%ed).
. Lord ELLENBOROUGH said, that when he en-
-1 tered the House he had thought the question was very
limited, and that it was only whether now or at some
.future period we would recognise the independence of
South America. But now it was one of a wider range.
The question was, whether we should recognise • the M-
dependence of these States, Spain being no,w in
,the
hands of France, who would no doubt attack them in
the'name of Spain? Who could attach any credit to
the decjatations:of France after the events of last year?
lie feared that we had shewn but little good will to-1
eiards South America, which could not forget the Fo-
reign Enlistment Bill, which, under the appearance of
neutrality, was, decidedly hostile to the South Ameri-
Cans. He rejoiced that, no man had been.bad enough
to put that act in execution; and he doubly rejoiced
'that our soldiers' and sailors, in their fleets and armies,
had. shewn'the-,South Americans the way to honour alio
to victory. This had created a good feeling of respect
and'gratitude towards the people of this country, whici.
had enabled us to reap advantages which we trzvet could