Star.
London, England, 1812-01-10 00:00:00

BRITISH TIEVENUE.

Mr. FREE MANGLE moved for Accounts of the Consolidated
Fund and War Taxes -for the years iSI 1 and Ibl 2, and of the
Charges for the same period.
The 'CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that as an
Act of Parliameniproscrilied that the Accounts rat the Revenue
shou'd be regularly laid before the House; andtbat as thtse Ac-
' counts would be bid in a reasouable time before them, he would
oppose the motion.
Mr. TIERNEY had the highest opinion of the value of Par-
finmentary Papers. His Hon. Friehd, mever, Only (wished
for the rt sults of certain parts of them; end it was not, cer-
tainly, necvsary far him to wait till all :he accounts could be
gat ready, before receiving the information wished for. He
meant no rirfl Trion on Ministers when he said that these volu-
minous aCCollt:ti were rarely delivered bef.re nearly the end of
the SessiAt. 'lll.re was nu motion which was not liable to the
objection of the Right Hon. Gentleman.
;I'he CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER wished the Hon.
Getnit.nati to postpone liks Motion till the foilowing day, that he
ought see whether or no: the accounts wished for by him would
take any t'Ang like the period mentioned by the Right Hon. Gun.-
demon who had spoken last.
'Mr. HORNER said, the conduct of the Right Hon. Gentle.
man (Mr. Perceval) was -certainly new to the House. During
an short time that he had been a Member, he had frequently
knowirdistinct,acCounts moved for out of the general accounts;
and the Act of Par:lament which provided for the furnishing the
Public Accounts to Parliament, required that whatever Infornia-
con the House might wish pn that subject, should be furnished
to them in continual succession. But whet 'was most singular
in this case was, that some of the Right Hun. Gentleman's col-
leagues, in another House, had already acceded to the production
pin ques WI.
After a few words from the CHANCELLOR of the EX-
CHEQUER and Mr. FREEMANTLE, the meatiou was pit.
,pored till to-morrow (this day).

°MARS AND NOTICES,
The CHANCa.LOR of the EXCHEQUER
moved that the House should adopt the same rule of '
proceedings this Session which had been followed
during the last, respecting the precedence between
Orders and Notices, and that on Monday and Friday
Orders should precede Notices.
.Mr. WHITBREAD objected to this Regulation,
as ;wringing on the Privileges of the House.
The CH.ANCELLOR. of the EXCHEQUER
explained.
Mr. ABERCROMBIE would not impute to the
Right Hon. Gentleman any intention of improperly
infringing on the rights and privileges of Members,
but certain it was, that the greatest iuconveniericies
might result from .the arrangement proposed, and an
imaginary temporary advantage ought never to be
acquired where permanept evils might be the conse-
quence. In future it might be contended, that no
Member had a right to make a motion without giving
previous notice, which would trench on the most im-
portant duties of a representative.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT felt it necessary to make
an amendment t;) the resoluticrn proposed, in order
to prevent the Minister, by claiming a right to have
his Orders ache Day considered first, postpone much
more important discussions until an hour, when, from
fa igue, Members were not able to give them due
consideration ; he therefore moved, that the Orders
of the Day should be disposed of in the exact rota-
tion in which they appeared on the order book.
The CH4NCELLUR of the EXCHEQUER re-
plied, that such a resolutidn would make a consider-
able difference in-the proceedings of the House estab-
lished by long experience. The consequence would
be, that the second reading of private bills might Oc-
cupy the House until four or rive in the morning, and
a contest about the course of A canal, would impede
the grant of those supplies on which the existence of
the Nation depended.
Mr. PONSONBY did not deny that the observa-
tions just made possessed weight, but the inconve-
nience itself grew out of the novel practice introduc-
ed by the Right Hon. Gentleman. No innovation
on the regular course of business in the How* was
ever admitted, without it being subsequently found
to be the fruitful source of many evils. In both cases
evils would be felt, but he thought fewer would arise
from the amendment' than from the motion as origi.
nally proposed.
d FOLKSTONE denied that the second read-
ing of private Bills ..ever occupied the House later
i dean six o'clock in the evening. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer was in the Noble Lord's. (pinion the
last person to complain of innovation, who had first
promoted a plan, which, even in the last session, was
felt to be inconvenient.
A division then took place, when the numbers
were—For the original motion 58 Fur the amend-
ment 15—Majeriry 43. •
PLACILIDZIC
On the Gallery being opened, the Speaker was
putting the questic4,' that n 'supply be granted, and

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that the House, to-morrow, resolve itself into a Cogs-' lasts, who had distinguished himself by les
arm
smitten for that purp9ee. ment and his eloquence., he was unfit to ill the •
Mr. CREEVEY role, and complained that the ties of an office which required those abaitiesi •
House was proceeding, in the present state of the his very capecity was to be assigned as the
country, to the most important part of its duty, with j for his incapacity. In the other case it was
information to regulate its conduct. Cornniittees ed to be said that a Member of Parliament tirftlialle
had been appointed many years since to inquire into improper person to fill an office, fur the ease
the best mode of retrenching the public expenditure, that he was a Member of Parliament. 71:111
and innumerable Reports had been made by them, the proposition, because it ought to be
flo
recommending the abolition of almost innumerable that the Honourable Member himself had c
places and pensions, but the House had yet come to in, terms of praise that could not be exceeded, , es
no distinct resolution on the subject, and had taken man, from his character and talents, was mese4.
no step to remove so gross a scandal on the nation. serving of the reward that had been conferreetA
Indeed, these Committees had been so long sitting, him. The principal ground of objection
that they seemed now to be considered as matters of was, that his constituents had thought him woo, '
ef
course, and the grievances they were nominated to their confidence, and that this is the first '
redress, Ministers had been constantly employed in where the objection has been seriously urged lees,
aggravating. What had taken place, even since the forced by a motion. It had been said, however, dui;
'lass separation of the House I No less than three the manner of conferring the appointment these IN
new offices had been filled, and filled too byMemhers something degrading to the House and insulaug',o
ot Parliament ; one of them had been made Cleric of the Prince.—(lfear, Afar, hear. ).--Such. he &swede
the Council ; another, Marshal ot the Admiralty ; I understood to be the charge against Ministers, ?ft
and the third, Paymaster of Widows' Pensions ; all I Honourable Memher had presumed a great desiese
of which offices had been occupied before by persons much—because the place had been granted, be irk I
who were not Members of the Legislature. It was it for granted that it was by Patent, and endue,
not long since another Member had been made a cumstanccs, too, similar to those under which ithld
Master in Chancery who had never practised in that been conferred upon General Fox. It might hoe
Court, and would any man deny that the gift was been better, before such suppositions were andelemes
conferred because the person receiving it had sup-' that inquiry had been made eat only into the •
.---'
ported the political views of Ministers ? Sir John 'of the grant, but into the office itself, for if so az I
Sitsclair, another Member, who had devoted his at- pains had been taken, the Honourable Membv w '
tension almost solely to agricultural pursuits, had have found that the ,office had never been gives',
been made a Collector of the Excise, an office of , life even to General Fox—and so far from any 4
great emolument. Did any man, however bigotted, ' credit being reflected on the Prince Regent, as flyisi
doubt that the Member for Colchester (whose mete , in the face of the Resolutions of the House or 4 4
eantile concerns and the duties that devolved upon ; Commissionets, it would be discovered that the •
him as connected with the East Indies, had chiefly ;nation of Colonel M'Mahon cast the highest prsip
bccupied him) had been appointed Marshal of the : upon his Royal Highness.—Hear, hear.) It so
Admiralty because his vote had always been at the ~ paned, that at the 'time the heft was coderred, c 4
service of the Crown ? Was it fair, was it just to the : nel M'Mahon was distinctly informed, that consider.
people of England, groaning under taxation, and yet • ieg the circuenstitoces in which that office stood, spiel
patiently suffering under many privationosbatitshould I regard to the manner in which the public sitteeese
be held out to them, that the only trade that now suc- had been directed to it, he was to understand thick
ceeded was than of a Member of Parliament who I must receive it subject to any view Parliament nigh
truckled to the Minister of the day? (Hear, hear.) i hie 'tier take of the subject (kear, hear.) He was
Belore he sat down it was the intention pf the Hon- glad to listen to the cheers of the other side eflis
Member to submit a motion to the House with A . House : what he had stated might appear to thesis
view that it should pledge itself to the early considee; great absurdity, but before he could consent to thiii
ration of the subject of sinecure emoluments and pen- 1 so he must resign all lie had learnt, and receive ia,
Aims, with # view at a future period- of founding I stnection from those who were so vehement-es*
upon a Place Bill a measure that must ultimately be he had stated he admitted was truly a cause of oil
resorted to. He had now to mention a subject which umpli—( f.aer, h,ar.).—lf, indeed, there was say
it was necessary to touch with some delicacy ; he thing in the world that could repel the calumnies ce.
Allu4cd to the appointnsent of Colonel M'Mahnn to upon this subject, and induce Gentlemen in future",
the office of Paymaster of Widows' Pensions. The •be more inqpisitive than accusative, it was this explo
Hon. Member had the good fortune to be acquainted nation ; but it seemed only with those *ha were le
with him, 4nd it was impossible that a more faithfal fond of perversion, to have added strength Si thee",
or deserving servant of the Prince Regent could be ' jections urged. —(Hear Lear.)—The Right Hoe
selected fur reward ; but in recommenuing his Royal, Gentleman trusted, therefore, thanti what had been le
Highness to bestow the place in question upon C lo- , weber:fatly brought terwerd, fell completely to the
nel M'Mahon, the Ministers had done great injustice I ground. What was the situation of things as day
to him, had offered i gross indignity to the Priece, ; now stood before the House? It was true that Corn.
and an insult and outrage to the House of Commons. ; mittees hed recommended the abolition of these offices,
It was now 29 years since the Committee of Public ; but it had been accompanied by a suggestion thus
Accounts, in their loth Report, in the most decided i certain number of sinecures should be continued, ad
terms stated, that the place of Paymaster of Widows' I that others should be compens4ted for by pensioass
Pensions was a useless burden to the country and i and in this instance, before any determination hal
ought to be abolished. The Commissioners of Mi. I been come to by the House on that subject, a plate
lititazy Inquiry in their Report four years ago, allude : bad been bestowed upon a person, who, Irmo the.hui
ing to the department cf tine
ferring to the 10th Report of the Committee of fa- I scarcely be too highly rewarded. Thus was dig
nance, state that they coincide with it in every respect, I charge made out, that great injustice had been dal
and recommend, that at the death of General Fox, , to the individual, a gross indignity offered to *
the then cccupant, it should be abolished. Generals; Prince, and an insult and outrage committed tool
Fox had lately died, and yet in the vet y teeth of these • House. For these reasons he could not see the slightest
two Commissions Ministers had ventured to advise • shadow of a reason for supporting the Amendment,
the Prince Regent (by Patent the lion. Member I Mr. BROUQIIAM disclaimed any idea of petits
presumed) to ha up vacancy by nominating Col. nal reflection on Colonel Mac Mellon. The greaser
M'Mahon. Why were the Commissions made out ? merit there was in the grantee, the greater if
Why did they make any reports at all, if the recom. deemed to be the insult on the House : for if !gm
mendation was not only to be disregarded, but to be led to an unworthy person, the House would ben on
treated with contempt ? A more gross indignity to awake to it. He objected to it, no: merely becatni
the Prince, or a greater insult to the House could two Commissions had recommended the place to hi
scarcely be imagined. The Hon. Member thought abolished, but that the House itself did, not longs
it necessary to say thus much on this nomination (in since than 1810, give its sanction to the Resolution
which his firmness in maintaining his country's rights of both those Commissions. He then read the RC.a
had not, he trusted, induced him to say anything in- lutions, in which it was said, that it was expedient,
with an exception contained in an amended clause tif
delicate to his Prince), or it would have been impos-
sible for him to arraign the conduct of the First Lord high eed effective civil offices under the crown, to
of the Admiralty in appointing Mr. Thornton, or the abolish all offices that had revenue without employ-
First Lord of the Treasury in selecting Sir John- Sin- meet, as were particularized in the Tenth Report 4
clair.—Thinking that no greater grievance could be the Commissioners of Accounts in 1803, and the Su*
complained of, and that there was no time fitter for Report of the Commissioners of Military Enquiry.-s
the purpose than the present, he should move, as an Thus office of Paymaster of Widows' Pensions vets
amendment, that the House will early take into its expressly mentioned as one of those which should *
consideration the various Sinecure Offices of Emolu- abolished at the death of General Fox ; instead d
ment and Pensions held by Members of the House. 1 which, Ministers, since the last meeting of Perlis-
The SPEAKER suggested that the first propose. • ment, had advised the Prince Rev's' ti grant it ta
tion should be negatived, and that Mr. Creevy might . Colonel M‘Malion, in defiance of the above menet*
then submit his motion to the decisipn of the House. , ed Resolutions and recommendation-
Mr. CREEVY replied, that the proceeding lie Hon. Gen:leman bed, how--
now adopted was authorized by a precedent exactly M'Mahon was told by the "
similar on the same occasion last year. to hold this office subject ,
After a few words from Mr. Whitbread, the Jour- hats:tent might hereafter make
nals were-referred to, and the motion was altered by I ing it entireiy, or subjecting
Mr. Creevy to the following form: ..4 4 That this said also, that General Fi
House will, on to-morrow se'nnight, resolve itself i and that Colonel fvl,lllate
into a committee of Supply, and in the mean time I life ; but the reason why '
that it will take into consideration the state of the vat- recommended that it sle
rious places of emolument, and pensions, in possession I account of the terms on
of the different Members of this House." With respect to the office
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCH-EQUER an Hon. Baronet in the Isle
could not by any means concur in the unconditional Excise, the Committee of .
censure bestowed by the Hon. Gentleman. It was, sideration when Parliament
as he understood it, founded upon two grounds ;—I. place should or should not '
That Members of the House hold a great number of sters had thought proper ,
places...ell. That Members have been nominated to the ~.:ommission, and thereby ,
certain offices before held by persons who were not dement in the way of abolishing
connected with the Legislature—[Mr. Creevy said I He agreed, therefore, with'-'- Hon.
something across the House as to the statement of sidered the present motion __
his objections.]—Such the Right Honourable Gen- such a prnceeding.
tleman understood to be the reasons for the Honour- Mr. CROKER exi-ressed ,
able Member's interference. It need scarcely k ne- the Clerkship of the Council,
cessary to inform the House, that appointments to Master in Chancery, mentioned
such offices as rendered Members incapable of serving That of Clerk ot the C-
in Parliement could not apply ; and where the va- (Arend agaiust the reconit
citing of the seat was the consequence of accepting missions alluded to; for is
a place, it rested with the constituents of the person present possessor, five-and-twenty
so vacating, whether they chose to re-elect him. Un- Hon. Gentleman who
der these circumstances it might have been as well if made an omission in readii g
the Honourable Member had restrained his eagerness that the office of Paymaskee
for attack until the returns of those persons wilts 114c1 should be ebelished ;
accepted the offices complained of were before the that the office should be
House. What was the proposition ? That no Merit- duties were au4ched to
her of Parliament WAS capable of filling 411 y place of though not equal to the
anultunent : that if he were a Barrister of known ta- to be regulated. Now

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Prince Regent to grant if tit
!fiance ot the above menttoli•
ommendations. TheAig4 •
however, said, that Colo.
le Prince Regent, that hea
t to the dispisal which
make of it, either in abolish...
acting it to regulation. fi.
Fox did not hold it for VW
ahon was not to hold it Ir.
y the two Commissions bad
should be abolished, was 011
which General Fox held*
ce which had been given le
N,irth, viz. the Cashier of dltt
of Finance had it undercut.
meet broke up, whether the;
not be abolished ; yet fdieit
✓ to act in the very teeth of
tereby threw another impedit
(dishing these sinectun places,
ith his Eon. Friend, and co*
on as well calculated to (nisi
essed his surprise at hearing
2ouncil, and the office of
nentioned sinecure places.
:taancil could n.t, however,
amendations t.f the two Cow,
r it had been premised to tip
Ind-twenty years ogo.
spoke last, had, howeve.g,
dii g the resolutions, and us. •
musket- ot Widows' Pensionf
whereas the resolution midi
e absolutely abolished if en
it ; but if there were dude;
emolument, the it was oat •
r he knew there were dais
•