Star.
London, England, 1802-12-15 00:00:00

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

any e

. '

A new Writ was ordered to be made out for Midhurft, in
the room of Samuel Smith, Efq. who has made his cletion for
the Borough of Leicefter.
Mr. WOODIORT prefeoted Accounts from the Exchequer, of
Monies iffued by his Majefty in purfuance of Addreffes of the
Houk, and not midcgood by Parliament.--Laid on the Table,
and ordered, on motion of Earl Temple, to be printed.
A Meffage from the Lords concurring with feveral Private
Bills, and feat feveral Bills of Naturalization to the Houfe of
Commons.
lir W. PULTIINZT prefented a Petition from the Moldier'
of the Town of Wem, in the County of Salop, again/ the Wet-
ting Ad.—Ordered to lie on the Table.
A Bill was ordered to be brought in pusfuant to the R efotu-
Lions which had been agreed to in the Report upon the Sugar
Bounty BilL
The Houfe refotved itfelf into a Committee on the Sugar
Bounty and Drawback Bill, for Ireland, in which Mr. Corry
moved feveral Refoludons, the fame as thofe In the former Bill.
—Ordered to be reported to-morrow.
Report of the Corn Exportation Bill; committed for to-
morrow.

The Honk in a Committee on the Dublin Baking Bill.—
Report to be received to-morrow.
Mr. CORRT brought up a Bill for reducing the fereral Militia
Adis in Ireland into one.—Second reading to-morrow.
Mr. liussirrru IT brought up a BM for fufpending certain
I=bee&c. rdadve to the.Woollen Manufmaaries,—To
'kelood time to-morrow.
Report on the Navy Billa
11.101170'W.

to be received to-

A 2 he rendering more eafy the tranfportation of Crimi-
MieemOldired to be read a third time to-morrow.
• TONNAGE DUTIES.
Mr. Buenos prefented a petition from the mer-
chants and blip owners in the port of Blythe ;—H
praying a repeal of the Export and Import Ton.
nage Duties. •
On prefentin this petition, Mr. BIVADON faid,
be could not regain from making fome remarks'
upon the fubjed of thofe duties, in confequence f
what had fallen from the Right Hon. Chancellor
of the Exchequer, on a former night, in his Rate-
anent on that fobjea, which he did not conceive to
be relevant to the fubjed of Ways and Means ;
bnt which was obvioufly intended to contrail thofe
flatements which had been drawn in the feveral
petitions previoufly prefented to the Houfe on that
fubjetl. His purpofe in riling now, was to en-
deavour to deprecate the influence which the Rate-
punt might be likely to have on the minds ok the
Houfe, before whom the merits of thofe petitions
Mould come to be regularly confidered. And he
Mould hope the Right Hon. Gentleman would
give every fair (cope for difcuffing the fiibjett
which its importance required ; as he and his
Friends certainly meant to make a (bong cafe for
the consideration of the Houle, founded upon the
feveral Ratements alledged is the petition. The de-
claration made by the Right Hon. Gentleman, on
the former night, he owned embarraired him not
a little at the moment, as the Ratement he had
made came forward by furprize, and, therefore,
be was not prepared at the moment to go into
either of its authenticity or im

port. As to the accuracy of the Ratement, fo far
alit went, he bad no doubt ; but he begged leave
to fay, that a comparative view of the entries in.
ward and outward of Britifh and foreign (hipping,
in the port of London, for the years 1801 and
1802, brought forward by the Right Honourable
Gentleman as a fpecimen to prove the rifing Rate
of national profperity under this head, was by n o
means a fair criterion by which we could judge of
the fituation of the general Rate of the country.
For the favourable contrail, (hewn by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, to prove the great decreafe of
foreign (hipping in tBoa, compared with the pre-
ceding year, there were great and obvious caufes.
In the former year the Ruffian embargo, and the
Northern Confederacy, were flrong caufes which
rendered the employment of foreign (hips indifpen-
fible to carry on our trade; insomuch, that he
bimfelf had ken a letter from Riga, which Rated
that four hundred foreign veffels were employed
from that port alone to carry Briti(h cargoes ;
and one hundred (hips from another port, all with-
in the (tort period of two months. Another very
(bong caufe, was the high bounties offered by this
country for the importation of foreign corn.—
Caufes there, which mull have very confiderably
tended to increafe the number of foreign (hipping
in our trade, and which ceafing, in the UR year,
mull have unavoidably tended to create that dif-
ference, from which the Right Hon. Gentleman
bad deduced a conclufion fo highly favourable to
Width Commerce. Another caufe for this de-
creafe, was the regulations formed by rival powers
on the Continent, and the plans they had fit on
foot to rival us in the Carrying Trade, particular-
ly the regulations formed by France, exclufively
again( the (hipping of this country; regulations,
the force of which mull inevitably be felt, if the
!hipping of this country wasp) contend with them,
clogged with a burthen fo heavy as the Tonnage
Dunes. To form a fair and jun criterion of our
true fituation in this refped, the Right Honourable
Gentleman ihould have gone much farther back
than trot, for a contrail with the laR year, from
Nbich - -- •

T.'T'

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Co highly produdiee, tmta a
out to prove its injurious tent
mercial interells of the Country,
would pledge himfelf to make
opportunity ; but, in the mean
prejudices in the minds of the : , :ng
the ftatement of the Right Honourable Gentle-
man, would be fulpencled until a fair inveftigation
fliould take place.
The CHANCELLOR of the Excitsopaa Paid, the
Hon. Member feemed not to recollect, that the
flatement be had made on a former night was ex-
prefsly confined to the port of London ; and that
he had lived it, not with a view of cresillsg any
prejudice in the minds of the Houfe ; *lnch, on
the contrary, he did molt fincercly deprecate, but
with a view to give fome criterion of the fituation
of the country, fo far as a fiatement of the port of
London—the only ftatement then in his power—
could be confidered to afford. In anfwer to the
affertion of another Hon. MeMber, (General Gaf-
coigne) who complained alfo of the Tonnage
Duties ; and who, whilft he admitted the fituation
of Britith Manufadures in the great manufadur-
ing diflrids of his own vicinity, to be flourilhing
beyond example, yet afferted that the (hipping
Trade of the country was rapidly declining, and
the capital of the Ihip-owners in the town of Li-
verpool alone, funk one-third in its value. On
that occafion he had acknowledged the poffibility
of force particular ports, and perhaps the very re-
putable one of Liverpool, which that Hon. Mem-
ber fo worthily reprefented, might fullain fome
partial difadvantage, in confequence of the changes
and arrangements necefiirily confequent to the re-
eftabliihment of peace. But what he aliened then,
and now, and what he was confident the annual
returns, when they came forward after the recefs,
would bear him out in aliening, was, that, upon
the whole, the Port and Shipping Trade of the
country had molt confiderably and rapidly in-
creafed in favour of Britifh (hipping, fince the
peace. His Hon. Friend who fpolte laft, had
deprecated all prejudice created by his ftatement
againft the petitions on a former night. He would
imitate his example now, and deprecate all preju-
dice created by petitions from particular places,
arainft his ftatement, until the whole returus from
all the ports Mould come regularly before the
Houfe. Adverting, however, to what had fallen
from the Hon. Member for Liverpool, on a for-
mer night, thoughle had admitted the poffibility
of the trade of that town having diminifbed fince
the termination of the war—yet, in confequence of
the Itatement made by
.the Hon. Member, he had
felt it his duty to inform himfelf fince, as accurate-
ly aspoffible, on the fubjed ; and the refult of his
enquiry was, that on a comparifon of the entries
inward and outward of Mtn and foreign (hip-
ping, at that port, for the years zBoi and 1802,
the account would Rand thus—

zSoz Brit& Shipping entered inward - 1331
' Iso2 Ditto - - 1783

am Foreign Shipping ditto - 624
Igor Ditto - - 425
In looking &it at this contrail, he was difpofed to
imagine, that although fo material a change took
place in the number of velTels under both defcrip-
dons, it might be counter-balanced by a decreafe
of tonnage; but the next column in the return
removed his apprehenfions, as he found the in-
creafe of tonnage confiderably exceed the propor-
tion.

In the former period the number of Width Ihips catered
outwards from the fame Port was - 1694
During the latter period - 1062
The number of Foreign in the former period - 703
During the latter period. 461
Tonnage in proportlon.
Here then again was an obvious argument againa
the affertion tithe Hon. Member; and he had fur-
ther to allure the Houk, that upon the Ratements
he had been able to obtain, to fimilar enquiries
direfted to the four other great Ports, from which
the Hon. Member had moved for returns upon a
former night, the accounts were equally fatisfac-
tory, and proportionately in proof of the affertion
he had made. An accurate ftatement he could'
not pretend to have obtained, fufficient to guide
the Houfe in a general conclufion, and for this
reafon be wilhed them to fufpend their judgment
till after the reeefs. But in the Catement he now
made, he could a trot that not only was the
change, with regard to number and tonnage of
thiping in thole ports he bad named, decidedly
.
avonr of this country; but the number of
Britith feamen employed on board fuch (hips, in a
comparifon of the two years, increafed upwards of
to,ooo in favour of the latter. From thefe eircum-
Ratites, Rill more Rrongly fupported as they would
be, by the general returns from all the ports, after
the _neck. be had little apprehenfions that the
Houfe would be inclined to deduce any neceffity
.for abolifhing the tonnage duties, as a meafirre ne-
cerary to the profperity of our trade. With re-
, fpeit to the documents his Hon. Friend might
think neceffary to have laid before the Houfe to
aid his purpofe, he need not be at the trouble of
moving them, as, by an Aft which palled at the
chile of the laR Seffion, it was made mandatory
on the proper Officers to lay them, amongft a
number of other papers, on topics of public receipt,
expenditure, and finance, before the Houfe every
Seffion, and they would, of conrfe, be brought for-
I ward immedia:ely after the recefs ; and whenever
the queftion lhould come forward for difeuffion,
be Mould be ready to meet it fairly.
' Gen. Gascorons, without meaning to antici.
pate any dikuffion upon this fubjesft, could not
pals
condut unnoticed the of the Right Hon.
Gentleman,
who, upon the former night, when
be had moved for thofe returns from Liverpool,
Brißol, Hull, and Glafgow, in order to contra-
vene a partial flatement from the port of London,
oppofed the motion as premature, and yet, this
night, to ferve his own purport, he found no diffi
culty, in prematurely pebdueing them from his
pocket on the fpur of a moment. In moving for
thole returns, he had no other objeet than to give
the Houk fair grounds to judge, whether it was
politic or prudent to continue the tonnage duties
or not ? In quoting his fentiments, from the diC
cuffion of a former night, the Right Hon. Gentle.
man either widely millook, or wilfully tnifreptn.
me a wise •

Me _

~; ;~~-~,

our ManufaitutOs Ott ja 40-
of our fhipping Vide, flit! pad.
,em, he Ipoks from authentic
more Amorally of the decaly of
:mportahs breams of that irides
ty, ;ft Indian department; and be now
(poke, in the hearing of• many merchants, wba
well knew the fad ' • which (espied alto admitted
yefterday by a Right Hon. Gentleman, who talked
of bringing fome meafure forward for its relief.—
With relped alto to our carrying trade, no man
could doubt the injnries we have fuflained, and
muft continue to fuftain, in that quarter. Nor
was the Ratement brought forward by the Right
Hon. Gentleman any thing like a fair criterion by
which to judge. The fufpenfion of our Naviga-
tion Al, in favour of Foreign Shipping in 18011
the Ruffian Embargo; the Northern Confederacy;
and the Bounties on importing foreign Corn, al-
luded to by an Hon. Member, were all caufes for
(welling the details of foreign (hipping in our ports
that year, and forming a contra!} fo favourable to
the haft. But in the monftrous increafe of Britifli
(hipping, Rated by the Right Hon. Gentleman,
he omitted to fay where they had come from..
Had they fallen from the clouds ? Surely not;
what then were they but veffels before employed
in the tranfport fervice for troops during the war,
and which, from making no entries outward, did
not appear on the returns of the former year, and
confequently did not come into the comparifon..
He, therefore, Rated now, as he had done before,
that the two branches of the (hipping trade, to
which he alluded, namely,. the Well Indian and
the Carrying Trade, fo important to this country,
were not in the flourifhing condition alledged ; and
that farts would not bear out the Itatement of the I
Right Hon. Gentleman. In refpea to the fup-
plementary Ratement made this night by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, he could not allow him all the.'
credit he affumed on the ground of candour, nor
did he confider his condua towards him, in rela- 1
tion to the documents he had this night adduced,
in fo furreptitious a way, confluent either with
candour or handfome treatment. But to form a
lull judgment .of the true ftate of our trade, an
impartial view for ten years back would be necef-
fary ; it would (hew, on an average, that foreign
(hipping had increafed above one-third in. our
ports ; and that in the port of Liverpool alone,
I the capital vetted in (hipping, rated at twenty mil-
lions, had fallen in value, within the IA year, one
complete third. He added, that at this moment,
in the whole river Thames, there was not a Tingle
(hip building for the merchant fervice. He hoped,
however, the Houfe would fufpend its opinions
altogether on the fubjea, until it fhould come
fairly before them.
The CHANCELLOR of the EZCHEVIR explained,
by alluring the Hon. Member he did not bring
forward the very partial and imperfea documents,
he had Rated this night, with any view to decide
the opinions of the Houfe, which he withed to be
fufpended until the full returns could be made
out : neither did he adduce them out of any per
fonal motive towards the Hon. Member fee, let
the Itaternent made by him, have come from whom
it might, he would have -felt it his duty to op-
pole it.
Mr. ATKINS fupported the arguments of Gen.
Gafcoigne, and faid, that any comparifon between
the ports of London and Liverpool, afford no fair
criterion to judge by, as in the former the (hip-
ping were principally the property of (hip-owners
employed in the carrying trade, and difpoceable
generally to any port or quarter of the world,
where that trade might call them ; but at Liver-
poi the (hipping was the property of the refident
Merchants • that town, from the nature of its
commercial connections, poirefed itfelf of the
principal Import Trade from the Weft Indies, and
became a mart for Europe, in Weft India commo-
dities ; and confequently by the furrender of our
conquells in that quarter, and the reftoration of
the Sugar Colonies to France, that port mutt be
molt materially injured.
Mr. DENT thought the Ratement made by the
Right Hon. the Chancellor of the Exchequer did
not meet the cafe of which the petitioners com-
plained • and earneftly hoped he would give the
fubjeft that due and deliberate confideration it de-
ferved. Circumftanced as we were with the Powers
of Europe, and contending as we were with filch
a rival as France, who had already ufed, and
would continue to exert every means, direct and
oblique, to undermine our trade, it was impof-
fible that too much protection and encouragement
could be given to it, or too much precaution ufed
in the adoption- of tneafures in any degree likely
to affect that profperity,
Alderman Sir WILLIAM Corns thought the
Tonnage Tax a very good one, and hoped the
Right lion. Gentleman would not abandon it,
convinced as he was that it would continue to be
produitive. Thole Gentlemen who now complain-
ed that the capital of Liverpool, in the article of
fhipping, had fallen in its value above fix millions
in the laft year, forgot how many millions they,
had put into their pockets by the war. That they I
were content Mend/ to put into their coffers • and
(till expelled the full value of their capital. 'This,
however, was a fpecies of argument to which he
hoped the Houfe would not liften. There was no
let of men in the country who had profited more
amply by the whole war, than thole who now
complained ; he therefore taw no reafon why they
fhould not bear their ample there of the public
biirthens as well as other people. Perhaps the fur-
plus of the year's revenue induced them to think
the tax no longer necellary. Hewifhed, however,
the furplus was double ; but Rill, in the fituation
of the country, it would beano argument with him
for repealing the tax.
Mr. VANsi TTART was extremely to wave
all advantages the Ratement of his Right Hon.
Friend could derive, from a comparifon of the halt
year's Shipping Trade with the year !Rot in par-
ticular. His Right Hon. Friend had chofen it on
a year the moll favourable to Britifh (hipping of
any preceding the halt, but his datements of an in-
creating prof-perky would he much more eminent.
ly corroborated by a comparifon with any other
year Ann the Revolution.
I AWMIIUn

which he had deduced fuch aufpicious conclutions.
But, however, when this fubjea ihould come for- I
ward for difcuifion, after the recefs, he truned
every document neceffary to its fulleft inveftiga-
tion would be produced on the part of Govern.
=tent. He was ready to make every allowance
for the hi h &nation of his Right Hon.
w admit, was dais' so snore

cafe 'could be suds the • • • tity of
Idency to the' Colin. lig ~ : .decay 4
1
ry. Such a cafe he cularly from Livi
e out on the proper faits. He (poke
n time, he hoped all one of our molt ii
Houfe, arifing from namely, the Well