Star.
London, England, 1825-02-04 00:00:00


•

,

•
superiority than their. a'clversarie If either of these
parties—if any country or nation hould_attack us, we
should find ineour own coura and resources ample
means of resistance. Should any State be oppressed—
should the balance of power be endangered, our exer-
tions wsitild 'not be wanted to protect the weak, or pre-
serve the whale front danger. From the.struggle of
parties we had hitherto abstained from inter lei ing, we
had taken no part between diem, and he hoped we
should never interfere, either in favour of those whose
aim was to put down all liberty, or in favour of those
whose aim was to destroy all existing institutions.—
On one occasion there was a necessity for us to unite
with all the Powers of Europe to obtain a common
object ; bat that object was obtained whenever, France
resumed her station as a great Power, and we were not
di .posed to lend ourselves to their selfish views. There
was one particular case is which we had acted even in
opposition to them. We had not been hasty in acknow-
!edging the indei endence of the States of South Ame-
rica, but we had declared, from the time when the in•
surfection broke out, that our conduct with regard tol
them would be guided by a view to our own prosperity,
and without any reference to the principles or practices
followeJ by.other States. We had conducted ourselves
in this•m otter with all possible delicacy ; we had run no
race for populasity, and given up no principles to secure
ourselves commef dal advantages. We hail proceeded.
gradually, and taken ❑o step not sanctioned by our
principles. When Spain had no longer any troops in
these -colonies, nor any means of sending them, it would
be also', sl to delay ackuowledging these Powers, out of
any zendes ness to Slain, or out of respect to an extra-
vagant claim, though supported by atther European
Mese' s. These Colonies are now Republics, they might
have fseeli, like ti.e Brazils, imi es ial ; tt•ith this we have
nothing to do, since they are all capable of maintaining
their relations with forvign Powers. They are indepen-
dent of Spain ; and we should rather be blamed for the
tardiness than the haste of our recognition—(hear,
hear). The colooiei preserve their independence by
their own power, lost Spain is garrisoned by 40,000
foreigners, who ate these now to support, but may
oyes throw the Government. A comparison had been
drawn, he must say absurdly, between the situation of
Spain and her colonies, and the situation of this country
anal our colonies during the American war. He would
not enter into the question of that war; he did not say
whether the conduct of this country was right or
wrong, but at least we had fleets and armies to support
out pretensions. We bad a powerful King, and that
King had a people. But Spain claims dominion over
colonies situated in a distant country, having no force
in them, and without a ship to send to sea, or a regi-
:pent to embat k. with a tottering throne, bolstered up by
an army of foreigners, die most detested of all people,
and without either funds or credit. We may be blamed.
• for not taking this step earlier, but we cannot be censured
for taking it now. We had proceeded with caution and
delicacy, for it was a difficult question to decide where
insurrection ends, and legal government begins. We
had proceeded cautiously- and justly—we had not re-
cognised these Colonies—they had established their
own independence, and neither Spain nor any other
Power had anything to blame nsfor, because the ques-
tion had at length been settled contrary to the wishes
of Spain. His Lot ti,hip concluded by saying he would
not touch on the 'other topics of the Speech, but content
himself by moving the Address.
Lord 60ItT observes:, that in rising. to second the'
Address, it was unnecessary for him, after the speech
of his Noble Friend, in which he detailed the flourish-
ing state of the country, to take a ge►ieral view of the
policy that had been pursued; but as Ireland was likely
to occupy so large a portion of the attention of Parlia-
ment, he hoped that he should be excused for saying a
word upon that subject. The distinguished Nobleman
at the head. of the Government of that country had con-
ducted himself to the satisfaction of all unprejudiced
persons. Lord Wellesley had been placed in a distres-
sing situation, but he had extricated himself from it in
a manner that could not fail to gain him the esteem of
all who bad the welfare of their country at heart. - ft
was but justice to the Noble Marquis, to remind their,
Lordships, that when lie got to Ireland, neither life nor
pioperty was secure ; but by the judicious measures of
Lord Wellesley, aided by Pat liament, the deluded were
brought back to a sense of duty. - The Insurrection Act
had answered all the purposes for winch it was intended,
and had been diminished in its operation ; the value of
laud bad increased, and, if the lower orders were not
led astray, the country would flourish. He wished he
could cod hem, tut be 'oust speak of the existence of
a bo.iy asserting all the powers of Parliament. They
had their Committees of Supply and Finance, and as-
sumed all the functions of Parliament. He should not
now discuss, in the most remote manner, the Catholic
Question, but he must observe that the Catholic Parlia-
ment-4A Laiigh)—seut forth the most inflammatory
speeches ; it told the people they were slaves. and spoke
iii the most dictatotial tone. The two Parliaments could
not exist ; either the Catholic or the legitimate Farb*
mesa must cease : and, in conformity with his Majes-
ty's Speech, he felt that the question must be brought to,
an issue. If they weir inclined, it would be easy for
the Catholics to turn the tide the other way, and make
the people contented instead of irritating them. If the
Catholics came to that House, they 'must come as peti-
tioners, and he hoped their request would be attended
to ; but before that could be the case, they must bear
the olive branch in their hands. His Lordship observed,
that he would not tiou'lle their Lordships further, and
concluded by seconding the Address.
Lord KING ruse to speak.
Lord LAUDERDALE complained that the Address had not
been read from the Chair.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said he could not read it, be-
cause the Noble Mover did not read it at length.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said it wa► hii fault that the Noble
LOrd did not read it.
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, it was not the Noble Lord's
fault so much as his. He had beeu anxious to Save his own lungs,
but he would read it —The Noble and Learned Lord then read the
At.ldress from the Woolsack.
Lord KING said, he could not but agree with meek
of the Address, since what had been done was cnly that
which Noble Lords on his side of the House had al•
ways been of opinion should be done; but much more
remained to be done, and he would particularise only
one thing, and that was, the Corn Laws; and, if neces•
sary, the Noble Lords on the other side should have
another jog in the course of the Session. As to Irelands
we could not dismiss from our minds that the Catholics
of Ireland were struggling under all that misgovern•
ment which was the disgrace "tithe times in which we
lived. The only countries in Europe now, in which a
difference was made by the Government on account of
OA religious faith of its subjects were "Turkey and le-
r and indeed there %vas a great similarity in other
points. it lien the_ Greeks pleaded to their Sultan to

be treated a little better than dogs, he referred them to';
his divided Divan ; for it should be observed, that this
absolute Sovereign was not so detpotic but that he al-
lowed himself to be bearded on one occasion by his
own servants ; and, indeed, though a tolerable good
sort of Governor, it might he doubted whether there
were not some points in his character not answerable
to our ideas of perfection; more particularly when a
certain affair with his Sultana was recollected. In this
divided Divan there was the Reis Effendi, a man with
more genius than all the rest el the Divan, and who
had done some good, and would do mote, If be wete
not thwarted by his narrow-minded colleagues. It was
intended at one time to seod this Minister out of the.
way, into one of the distant provinces; but being
wanted at home, he was retained. It was, however, to
,be hoped that be understood why he was kept. The
nest person was the Officer at the head of the Police,
the Kislar Aga, in whose department the Slaves were.'
lie would treat the Greeks like the Blacks, and the
Blacks like the Greeks; that is, he would treat them
both in the worst -way be could. There was another
Officer, who had formerly been promoted to an office,
he believed, chiefly on account of his fine voice, though
he believed it was

Vox et prieterea
If Fortune had sported with his imbecility in placing
him above his merits, no doubt the Reis Effendi sported
with him too. But above all, the great Aga of the
Janissaries was a great enemy of the Greeks, though
the Captain Paella was said to be in their favour. The
head of the Eunuchs was the great defender of all ex-
isting abuses and the most consummate bigot of the
whole Divan, though at one time he took up the cause
of the Sultana; he afterwards raised a cry about the
Greeks entering the Army, similar to our cry of No
Popery, and in that affair he acted strenuously, without
being h tayed by a single doubt or hesitation, though he
had the most scrupulous conscience, which he main-
tained in the utmost activity whenever it did not inter-
fere with his owo interest. He and the Eisler Aga,'
aided by the Dervises, the Ulemahs of all the rabble or
the Mosques, will continue to oppose the Greeks to the
end of time. It was to be noted too, that in this divided
Divan, they had a mover of one opinion and a seconder
of another set of opinions, in order to keep up the bar-
ninny of discord—(Hear). The blessings of this divided
Divan had been seen, and if it were wished to incur the
same danger. in no long lime our Holy Friends would
divide our Empire for us.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, that it wis with
much satisfaction he had lima the Noble Lord. who
had moved die Address, in a strain which his Lordship
was peculiarly happy of commanding,deliver sentiments
which he was sure eloquence of a far inferior order
than his (Lord Dudley and Ward's), would have pre-
vailed on their Lordships to assent to. In one part
of the Royal Speech, allusion was made to a mea-
sure which, in point of policy, was as wise as it was
beneficial' to this country. When a measure was re-
sorted to by his Majesty's Government, he was sure
it was not his u ish to contemplate with:any other but
an impartial and candid feeling; and the measure that'
had now been done by them was one which be had
long felt to be most necessary, and he was fully per-
suaded that the recognition of the States of South
America had been done upon the fairest and most
honourable principles. When he looked to that quar-
ter of the world which was the most sterile in point
of commerce, but at the same time the most perfect
in point of principle, he could not.withhold his meed
of praise to his Majesty's Ministers for the wise and
prudent step they had taken. Whatever might be
his 'love for commerce, he was sure his Noble Friends
would not, any more than himself, for the sake of
aoy commercial advantage that might be acquired,
dunk of recommending any measure that would in
the least tend to a violation of principle, or interfere
with the rights of other nations, for the purpoite only
of promoting the pecuniary interests of our own. He
was sure it, was from principle only, and not from
say commercial advantages, that sueli a measure
might offer, that his Majesty's Ministers had advised
the recognition of the independence of the late Spanish
Colonies of South, America.. He rejoiced also at this
eircunistance, from the concession it made to the great
political, or rather he should say natural axiom, that
every people_ had a right to form their own Government.
He rejoiced, he repeated, not because he thought this
Government gave or meant to give any preference to
any particular form of Government, either democratical,
or monarchical, or aristocratical, but he rejoiced because
libis recognition on the part of Great Britain acknow-
ledged the right of the people to establish their own
Government, in opposition to the policy of that body
of Sovereigns on the Continent, whose principles are
diame.rically opposed to this. It afforded a distin-
guished exception to that system in which se many of
those Continental Powers were so unhappily engaged,
and in which he trusted they never would succeed. He
did say, that the measure which his Majesty's Ministers,
had accomplished, entitled them to the thanks of the
country. This was the principal feature of his Majesty's
Speech, and to which the Noble Lord who had moved
the Address had referred. There was, however, another
topic alluded to in the Speech from the Throne, and
Which he (Lord Lansdown) considered deserving very
great attention, but to which his Noble Friend had not
in any manner addressed himself. Indeed, as yet he
felt that it was not competent for him to say anything
on the subject, for want of the necessary information ;
he, hciwcyer, would hope that some explanation would
be hereafter given to the House that would assist their
Lordships'judgments in deciding upon the propriety
or expediency of the measure. It was stated in the
Speech, that the unprovoked aggression and extra,.
vagant pretensions of the Burmese Government had ren-
dered hostile operations against that. State unavoidable,
and that circumstances Connected with other parts of his
Majesty's foreign dominions would render some aug-
mentation in his military establishment indispensable.l
What the Burmese had done he knew not ; more than
that which the Speech coaumunicated, it was not, per-
haps, competent upon him to know, until the proper
information and documents had been made and laid
`before the House. He had heard, however, that 15,000
men famed the complement to be added to the Indian
army. It appeared to liim that the state of India, re-
quiring an increase of 15,000 men, was a circumstance
that could not but excite considerable interest in the
minds of their Lordships, especially when they re.
fleeted that it was in a time of peace that this augmea.
tation in ow army was called for. He thought that
this was not a subject where suppression on the part oft
his Majesty's Ministers ought to be observed in their
communications to the House. He would not suppose
that there was any wish on the part of the Ministers to
keep back ally portion of the facts which had been
made known to them respecting our Indian possessions,

'and he should,therefore,feel reluctant to say more, espe-
cially in-the absence of all-paper relating:up .the-eub-
ject, and of all allusion made to it by his wgesriezd
who moved the Address, than that he trustedatverrin-
formation would be afforded to . their Lordshipessehibh
the importance of the. quettion demanded. Hiving
disposed of these points, lie now came-to one that in-
terested their Lordships most—he meant that part of
the Speech which alluded to the state of Ireland, btit'
more particularly to that part of which referred to the
Association that had been formed to effect, as those of
that body declare, by all legal means, their emancipa-
tion,
but which the Speech described as having adoptedl
proceedings irreconcileable with the spirit of the Con.]
stitution, and calculates', by exciting alarm, and by
exasperating animosities, to endanger the peace of so-,
ciety, and to retard the course of national improvement.;
Their Lordships most undoubtedly felt great regret,'
that in - a time of peace and prosperity almost un-
known, when commerce was finding new ports for-
its merchandize; when trade and manufactures at
home were in their branches extending themselves;
when apiculture was reviving, and everything yes
suming the aspect of permanent prosperity, and when
in that particular part of the United Kingdom which
these things were so materially benefitting—their
Lordships, he repeated, must naturally feel deep re-
gret that still there should have occurred circum-
stances that should induce his Majesty's Ministers to
adopt any rigorous measures, of the necessity of which
their Lordships were not sufficiently informed. But
should it be deemed proper by their Lordships comp-
port those measures when they shall be made known,
he had only to exhoit their Lordships not to believe,
that by merely removing any of the externals which
affected that country, they would be removing the
causes of them. This would be a delusive opii,ian ;
there must be something more than outward shrew that
affected the situation of such a body as the Catholics of
Ireland—and circumstances arising from the condition
of.five or six millions of people, placed, with regard to
the Church, totally different— ( Hear, hear) —he
would say, from what any similar people were ever
placed in. He would, therefore, entreat their Lord-
ships not to conceive, that whatever measure they
might adopt, they would be at all remedying the evils
'to which it was intended to be applied. Remove one
symptom- as they would, another would come, and a
war of legislation would arise. Upon- the question of
the remedy to be proposed, he should form the• best
opinion that he. could ; but he should-say, that what-
ever might be the object of the Association formed in
Ireland, or whatever they might purpose, it was more
safe that it should operate through knows and open
ehanaels, than through secret ones. if it should be sought
to screen from the public eye the moyeineltits.of this
greatibody, if these communications between the mem-
berkot the-Catholic Association should be attempted to
be carried on by means that were private and unseen,
then indeed might the alarms of the timid be excited,
and the fears of the weak justified, But those commu-
nications, and that systematic arrangement which had
been alluded to, in order to be deprecated, were not at-
tended by any such fearful consequences, because they
were open and avowed. He would rather' that public
opinion should flow through open and known channels,
than circulate in the dark labyrinths- of plots and the
lurkieg avenues-of intrigues. It was not the outward
and visible sign that their Lordships had'to dread, but
the secret, half-hidden movements-of discontent. Opens
ness of conduct declared an honesty of purpose. The
freemasonry which-they had to fear was the freemasonry
which was created by their Statute, which taught thim
to recognise each other as fellow-sufferers in the same
cause, brothers in the same expatriated decree,. and
which taught them to evade their Lordshipelaws and
assemble together in council to comment. on hardships
they were enduring for conscience-sake; for what laws
were there that could tftstrain men front adopting meat
sines which were only intended by them to be- the
means of attaining what they believed and knew to be
their rights? Not measures, he trusted with his Noble
Friend, for mischief, but for recognising that station in
the Empire to which they sincerely felt• themselves ens'
titled, although kolas too true that those 10111Wire$ hadC
caused a degree of agitation which he:hoped:would now
under all the circumstances, continue-to operate. Be
their Lordships' measures what they might, it would be
impossible to allay that irritation which existed until.
some mode had been adopted commensurate with the
demands of solarge a portion of the people as the um
settled part of behind presented. He should'be prepare 4
to consider every measure that might be proposed 14
his Majesty's Government with. that disposition- to adopt
',Which the urgency of the, case requited, and- with this
consideration that was due to. bis ewer judgment on a
question so vitally important to the tranquillity-of the
country, and so pregnant with political consequences.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL thought that, at least, the
first paragraph in die Royal Speech. would be fully
echoed by the House: he believed that no difference of
opinion could exist with- respect to the satisfactory con-
dition of the country. After all the difficulties which
England had contended with successfully during the
progress of the war, she found that difficulties scarcely
less trying remained yet to be surmounted in a state of
peace. The same qaestion which circumstances had
,brought into discussion frequently before, was now agi-
tated again, and. with redoubled violence:. Wet aiim-
bers of persons concurred in thinking that the country
could never again return to a metallic currency,_ and
yet. keep faith with the public creditor. The Hiniie
could not but fully recollect these opinions.. con-
nected as they had been with the difficulties suss
Wised by the country in its transition from a. war of
twenty years, to a state of 'Cadre end absotuti penal
In the midst of present. distress tend. difficulty* tioeenw
men.; had bees called upon to reduce the burdens of
the people—burdens. which indeed had preisetPlaeavilija,
but which, nevertheless, at, that time, it had been ims
possible to take off.- •But if the Houses of Parliament
had displayed firmness iii the course of the great strugi
gle which they had carried on. against France,. they
.hewn no less in what thee had resolved on in ineetiert
:1
the pressure consequent upon that struggle'stoncl '
Parliament had determined to attain tharwithout whi 1
the prosperity of the country never could have r
upon a solid foundation—they had determined to hays
.a sound metallic currency ; and they had accomplishes'
this without violating a single pi evious engagement imet
which they had entered, Th*lisk bad been a hercua
lean one ; but we bad accomplished it,. and we. Irene
aew enjoying our _reward---we bad founded a WWI
prosperity for England greater than any other count,*
had enjoyed, nay, greater than she herself„ at any
antecedent period, had ever stood in. This, thesi
being the internal state of the country, Governmend
might fairly proceed to the agreeable task of removin
those restrictions, which; under lest prosperous auspices.

it would have been unsafe, perhaps, to meddle with
With respect to the 'recognition of outh Ametican
dependence, the Noble Marquis who had last spoken
had expressed his entire approbation of that measure.
The question, in fact, had been, not whether South Ame..
_rice should he open to the commerce of Great Britain,
but whether she should be open to mankind at large?
On a former occasion he had stated, when the South
AmeriCan-besiness was to be discussed, thittlhe did not
think that England, or any other coantry, had_a tight
to set itself up in judgment between the mother country
and the colonies. We bad no right to dispute the inde-
pendence; but, on the-other hand, we were not entitled
to assert and maintain it. What he(thelioblel, rd)
maintained -was,. that except as. far- as .wes necessary to
her own safety, England had no right to interfere, or
to set herself up in judgment between Spain and South
America. We had acted with caution in this affair of
South America, and our duty had been to do so. Spain
was our ally, and had been so long ; and our treaty of
1808 had been a treaty to maintain her mile. Front
time to time, in the commencement of the disputes, a e
had offered our mediation to the Spanish Government
but that mediation was rejected ; and the consequence
was, that Spain lost' for ever count: ies which would,
through that offered mediation, have adheted to ter for '
years to come, though certainly not in the former state-
ef bondage. Now, as to what' particular States were
objects of England's recognition, there was one in which
the power of Spain had been extinguished for several.
years, in which not one Spanish soldier had been seen
for a long period, which had resisted the mother coun-
try earliest, and possessed a sort of Government longest
—he meant 'Buenos Ayres. There certainly vas no ge-
neral governmental' authorities, but there was one power
of an incipient nature, and with that State relations had
been established,chiefly through commercial agents and
01) commercial principles. The next was one which'
was itself quite delivered from the Spanish power, and
had such a Government, and was so circumstanced in:
general poihts as to have been able to sustain relations
of peace and amity per se—but then the power of Spain
was still lingering in a neighbouring. State, Mexico ; and
if it had succeeded against the latter, there was no pos-
sibility of foreseeing what effects the re-action would
produce on the independence even of Colombia
and this was the opinion of all persons then resident in
those countries—this was the cruse of the delay in es-
tablishing relations with Colombia. As to Mexico, a
person claimed imperial power over it, and left this
country with a publicly known intention of establish-
ing that claim through means of a military counter re-
volution ; while his enterprize was undecided, the Bri-
tish Governmenecould do nothing in the way of di.
plomatic arrangements with that State, and besides,
there was no regularly formed Executive existing at
the period; but since the capture and death of that
person, and the subsequent organisation of a regular
Government„arrangements had been made for the es-
tablishment of relations with it; so that the Noble Lords
opposite may see that even on -their own principles,
the British Cabinet could not have acrnowledged the
independence of those States at air earlier period.---
With respect to the affairs of India, arid the increase
contemplated. in the -Military establishment of the
country, the.Nuble' MarquiLwbo had.last. spoken had
alluded to certain reports* wfilch were abroad ; he (Lord
Liverpool), however, begged' that Ndble Marquis to
take nothing-more for grantedthan was declared in the
speech from the Throne. . It was not by any fault or
neglect on the part of thaEcecutive _Government that
earlier information upon this subject had not been given
to Parliament; papers would,shortly be produced, and
for any farther explanation desired every possible dis-
position existed.to afford it.' It' remained now, there-
fore, only to trouble tJe House with a few words, and
they. should, 'at. present, be but few, upon the state of
'lreland. Ile (the -Noble Lord) in considering that mat-
ter, which was adverted to in the Royal Speech, and
would come undeetheconsideration of the House, could
not treat it as wholly aeconnected with the general
Ca-
tholic Question, but he certainly should treat it as a
matter by na Means growing out of, or immediately
connected with it. For the measure which was to be
proposed, there was nothing about it which should pre-
vent its being discussed upon its own independent
merits. The proceediags.iaken at this moment by the
Catholic Association of Ireland, there could be no doubt
amounted to an evasion of the provisionsof die Statute
Book. They were Undertaken and carried on in that
spirit which aaitl. determinateln. 'd Whatever law you
make, our business into evade and to nullify it." The
proceedings of the Cetholic Association at this moment
were in decided hostility to the intentof the Convention
Act, and it Was`for Parliament to declare if it would
authorize the evasion of aitatute so important. There
might be those who would ley generally, that they dis-
liked the effect. of the. iistrietive laws operating upon
Ireland, and that they would do nothing to strengthen
or to extend them; but whenever those persons looked
at the conduct of the.party which called itself the Ca-
tholic Association—eavr it actually levying a duty, un-
authorized, upon the Catholic population of Ireland—
would they say that the existence of such a body was
consistent with the Constitution of this country, or that
it was compatible with its peace? Re protested that he
himself, if he stood before the House as the advocate of
Catholic claims, the first Act which he would vote for
should be the putting down of that convention, the Ca-
tholic Association;' because, if Catholic claims sere
granted at all, they- ought to be granted upon their own
'merits, andnor to the demand-of such a body as that As-
aociation,acting in the way that that bod'ywas disposed-to
act. The Speech from the Throne saidaltat in the general
prosperity—the increasing prosperity of the country,
Ireland was taking a large share. This statement was
entirely founded.in fact; the effect of that fact Was ap-
parent in the cessation of those disturbances in many
parts of that country, which some had- attributed to
po meal and religious animosities, but whieln he had al-
.
strays. nsaielr attributed to distress. He believed what
had been stated by the Noble Seconder of the Addasss
—that the wise measures of the Lord Lieutenant of
Ireland, and especially the Constabulary Act, had done
great good; bek he believed that the increasing pros-
perity of the comutry bad done still more. if religious
dissensions, and the political animosities arising out of
them—if thesrtended to produce disturbance, what
could be more mischievous than the measures. of the
Catholic Association?. It seemed to him (the Noble
Lord) that both she• safety and the prosperity of the
country demanded that immediate measures should be
taken against it. He should therefore sit down by giv-
ing notice, that on this day se'nnight, be should move
for a renewal of the Committee for inquiring into the
state of Ireland. . •
The Earl of DOgOUGII MORE regretted to hear
enytene taken which seethed to threaten furthet
sures of coercion Ataipiteffeland, tiliefendea the