Star.
London, England, 1822-05-24 00:00:00

f„;

appeared
rangement prOposedbpte present Di% practicable
effects-wete likely to result,from which great benefit
might be hoped,. be en:ol4 have no objection to in-
Arease the sum. 'Mb was- no party meawrS. Gen-
tlemen of all parties had been consulted by his
Majesty's Government on the subject; and nothing
would more tend to the general advantage, than for
individuals to lay aside all party .feelings, and to
assist on the one hand in carrying t measure. into
elec.ution, and on the other in preventing abuses in
its application.
The Marquis of DOWNRHIRE expressed The
satisfaction at finding that the attention of his..
Ma-
jestys Government and of the Legislature had been
honestly directed to the situation of Ireland. Re•
considered the present measure, however, as only
temporary ; and trusted that Government, laying.
aside all party feeling, as the Noble Elul had recom-
mended, would look deeper into the state of Ireland,
and into the causes of its distress and disaffection,.
The first cause he believed to be the tithe system, and,
if the Noble Marquis at the head of the Irish Govern-
ment would institute an inquiry, the end of it, he was
Fe; shaded, would be the revision of that system.
which was most unfit for that country. He was un-
fortunately a great proprietor of tithes, and he should
be happy to make any sacrifice to facilitate a full in-
quiry, and a new regulation of the system. With
respect to taxation, he had presented two Petitions
on the subject to the House : he should be glad to'
know whether the Noble Earl opposite had taken it
iato consideration, and whether, as it was reported in
Ireland, it was intended that some alteration should
take place in the taxes which affected that country ?
The Earl of LIVERPOOL replied, that this de-
pended ou other measures to be brought before Par-
liament, and that if they were.approved of by the
other House, they would yield !chef, as they would
be attended with some alteration.
The Earl ot DARNLEY said, that it was the want
of employment which aggravated all the evils of
Ireland, and had produced insurrection more than
the system of tithes. He wished that what was now
done had been done sooner, and thought that it,
would have been more gracious to vote as much for
the suffering people of Ireland, as Parliament had
done for the Russians, the Spaniards, and the For to-
gue.e, than only one half the sum, as was now pro.
posed. With respect to landlords in Ireland, he knew
that prejudices existed, but he disclaimed anything,
like a system of oppression on their part.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN, after what had
Me.) from the Noble Marquis, should take this op-
portunity of giving notice, that if no nwasUre of a
more general nature than the present should be pm-
p. used, he should himself 'call the atteution of the
Iluose to the measures calcu'ated for the permanent,
conciliation and happiness of Ireland. He should
sox fix a day at present, as the only one on which
the House would sit next week, was already occupied
by an important subject. But lie should probably be
able to bring.on 14s motion the week after next.
The motion was then agreed to, and on that of
the Earl of LivtatrooL, the Bill went through all its
st iges and was passed.
The Doke of DEVONSHIRE said that the notice
of his Noble Friend (the Marquis of Lausdown)
would relieve him from the duty of bringing forward
the sLbject of Tithes in Ireland, as it would of course
form a part of his Noble Friend's motion.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that the system
of tithes had been under the anxious consideration of
the Irish Government, and that a Bill would be
brought into the other House on the subject. It'
would, however, only one part ; but other.
measures were in contemplation, which were not
sufficiently matured to he introduced in the course
of the present Session. It was fitting, however, that
the House should know that his Majesty's Govern-
ment would not rest satisfied with a partial measure,
but that other important branches were also under.
going investigation.
Lord HOLLAND conceived that the measure
mentioned by the Noble Earl would be not only a
partial measure, but one calculated to throw a.ldi.
tional difficulties in the way of a final settlement. At'
all events, it could afford no inducement to his Noble
Friead to abandon the motion of which he had given
notice. The conversation having dropped,
Mr. &limo: presented the Annual Account of the Receipts
and Expenditure of the Dover Harbour. Laid on tic: table.
After which the House Adjourned.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Mr. DAVENPORT presented a Petition from the County
of Cheshire, complaining of distress, aid praying relief, by the
application of the Sinking Fund to the reduction of taxation.—
Ibe Ilan. Member bare testimony, to the distress of the Peti-
tioners, and stated his belief that it was still increasing.
Alr. LISTER mud, that the Meeting at which the Petition
was agreed to was highly respectable and peaceable.
after a few observations from Mr. Conway, the Petition
was read, said ordered to lie upon the tabk.
Mr. DAVENPORT presented a Petition from Nantwich,
in Cheshire, against the Dill to prevent the removal of the Pour.
Ordered to be printed
Mr. Alderman WOOD presented a Petition from certain
Dutcher* and•othet dealers in cattle, living in Whiteehapel, In
favour of the Bill for preventing the ill-treatment of Cattle.—
The Petition was read, and ordered to be printed.
Mr. ESTCOURT presented a Petition from the Boron k of
Ttesines, praying a revision of the Criminal Code.—Orderesi to
be printed.
Sir U. BURGH presented a Petition frum St. Paneras, from
certain Christian people thwaselves
.Separatists, praying
Tait( from oaths which they doe* iticonsisteut with their faith.
Laid on the table. •
Mr.rT. WILSON presented a Petition from certain Silk
Needgium4. isaktat the Navigation Act! Rill, and particularly
isigaifisa Vint put which permitted the importation of thrown silk.
Bin W. SMITH supported the Petition. Ile trusted the
'Right Hon. Gentleman who brought in the gnu would not
harry aeon through the Hesse, but give the necessary time for
the parties *he were consumed, to be beard with attention.—
The Petition ,was ordered be be printed. •
G [MN FELL prawatied a Petition from sundry Inha. '
bitants'of liadruth, in the chanty of_Cornwall, praying a Ro.
vidoes of the Criminal Cods to be printed. .
bin GREEFELL pet Mint, that en Thirsday next he
protest a Faddists' certain s
residing
A.Ol London, whet the PropoMINIM of tbe
Chancellor of the Exchequer, for the Removal
the Dolt et itegleint
presented a Petition from the Parish of

_ gentWal- casestryp
the attention of the commercial and leaded - _
before tise Holm
!Mee _a kw- obeetsratioss from. Ydr. Davarimin and bk.
M~aasene,
WALLACE doted that the BM bad bees or would be
harried through the Hesse. He was at $Am to coueeke how
the Bon. Etember (Mr. Rettertoon) iodiEllohe iregipsur that
the Hill had anything to do with the landed tiatassammdal in-
terests of the country.
.Sir T. LETHBRIDGE etestassted that the trot told-
matay act the landed interest, and be shalltldup euirertatuts
ontintty objecting to it. •
Report was thin received, and the autebdusesus of she
Oknmitterbaegagreed to, the Bill war ordered to be reed
second time thislay weight.
A Message fitim the Lords announced their Lordships'Aemst
to the Seditious Meetings Bill, and +several others.
The Commercial Statutes Repeal wee repotted, the
amendments agreed to, and the Hill ordered to be reeds third
time this day se'nnigist.
Upon the motion of Dr. Les/mato% the Slave Trade Acts
Consolidation Bill was committed pro faros. The Herat was
brought up, and ordered to be taken into further consideration
this day fortnight.
The House went into a Committee upon the Scotch Distil-
leries Bill. The Report was ordered to i* received to-morrow,
The Assessed Tax Composition Act Amendment Dill was
committed, and the 'Report ordered to be taken into further

consideration to-morrow.
The Weights and Afeasiires Hilt went through a Committee,
and the Report was ordered to bt taken into further consider-
ation to-morrow fortnight.

IRISH PAM&
Mr. GOULBURN said that, in bringing forward
this subject, he should shut out from his consideration
the great questions with regard to Ireland which
would be mote properly discu-sed upon other occa-
sions. The outline of the. Bill was, to vest in the
hands of the Executive the power of creating Special
Magistrates, and to enable Policemen to be transfer-
red from one Barony to another, to be under the con-
troul of the Magistracy. He trusted the Bill would
be discussed' at length upon some of its future stages,
when its merits could be better understood by the
House. He moved for leave to bring in a Bill to'
authorise the appointment of Constables in Ireland,
so as to secure the tranquillity of the country, by the
removal from Barony to Barony.
Sir J. NEWPORT said that the measure appeared
to him to place a large farmer at the disposal of the
local Magistrates, and to leave them without respon-
sibility. Upon this first view of the measure, these
were the principal objections which presented them-
selves to his mind.
Mr. V. FITZGERALD' thought the thanks of the
House doe to his Right Hon. Friend, for having thus
early brought the subject before the House. It was,
one in which ho had for a long time been deeply in-
terested, and he was much gratified at seeing it in
such good hands.
Mr, Secretary PEEL thought the Hon. Baronet
(Sir J: Newport) would not find, upon reflection, that
his objections could lie against the Bill. He was satin-1
tied that the Hon. Baronet would apply his mind to
the measure proposed, without permitting any pre-
conceived opinion to interfere with his deliberate
judgment. Several attempts had been made to ac-
complish this desirable object, but hithei to without
success.; and it was his earnest hope that it might
now be rendered practicable. He believed that the
chief evils of Ireland arose from the in dinary English
laws not having had a fair tail in that conntry. Ile
did not mean to anticipate discussion, and he should
therefore only express his opinion that what was
proposed might now be done ; and it was agreed on
all hands that, if an effective Police could be esta-
blished in Ireland, the greatest benefits must arise
from it—(Hear).
After so meabsery ations from NI r.Gotiusun e: and Mr.
BROUGHAM, leave was given to bring in the Bill.
WELSH JUDICATURE.

Mr. ALLEYS rose in pursuance of notice, to sub-
mit a motion to the House, which he was sorry had
not fallen into other hands. The subject might be
considered with reference to the present defects in the
Welsh Jurisdiction, the possibility of removing them
by Legislation, and in case this were found impracti-
cable and difficult, to the propriety of abolishing the
separate jurisdiction altogether. Under the first
branch of the subject, the facts were admitted. There
were few responsible officers, and most of these held
different situations ; some of them incompatible with
each other. The Equity side of the Judicature was
,seldom resortei to ; and therefore Gentlemen whose
legal education bad been principally directed to the
common law were selected as the Judges, and these
were of course little acquainted with the rules of
equity. Two objections to the equity side were in-
deed of themselves- almost insurmountable. The
Coact was ambulatory, and it had not the power of
enforcing the attendance of witnesses on the obedi-
ence of its own decrees: The latter circumstance had
been shewn in the case of Lord tensington,who, under
the. advice of Sir Itomilly, had brought actions
against one of his-tenants in the Courts at Westmin•
ster, in defiance of an injunction issued by the Welsh
Court of Equity: Another objection which affected
the whole of the Judicature, WAS in the circumstance
that the Judges might act as Counsel in cases not
coming under their'judicial cognisance. • This gave
rise to many suspicions connections between the
Judges and the attornies who employed them as
Counsel. The next objection was to be referred to
the present state of the law, which in some cases di-
rected' Welsh causes to be tried in the adjoining Eng-
' fish county.; and' in others'gave a power of removing
causes by certiorari to the- superior Courts. The con-
sequence of this wasf that many suitors bad to take
' , their witnesses a hundred miles before they came in
sight of the Court of. Justice'; and that the expense
of trying an unimportant cause not unfrequently
amounted to three hundred pounds. Such a'system
amounted to an exclusion of the poor from the meant
of obtaining justice, and enabled the rich to oppress
with impunity, as certain ruin attended a poor man
in the event of his encountering such expense. In-
deed he knew dint a rich man who wished' to cons-
pel one of-his tenants to submit to' sertain.terms be
wanted to enforce upon bim, told the poor man to
" submit, or prepare for sr journey to Hereford ;"
so that it was evident that oppression in this ease was

present ,
Welsh Judges: They Might hold' 'situations .
next
cpirielictrsta‘incesthewChmichwils;oualnddreisMidergat tsairininthtegiteat it;
list•
blew be weakened,
,be removed by
qeestion was, whether these evils could
at least in.ptsblic opinion.
'legislation, still retaining the separate jurisdiction ?--
He was opinion that they could not; and it might
thence be inferred that he- intended; in, the first in-
stance, to propose the abolition of that separate ju-
risdiction. He was, however, willing to submit the
.to the consideration of a Committee, in which
he should
stance, that the reasons which formerly existed for a.
propose Resolutions, declaring, in sub-
separate jurisdiction had ceased; that equality of,
laws between England and. Wales was desirable; and.
that in order to effect that equality, the separate ju-
risdiction should be abolished, and the jurisdiction of
Wales be administered by Judges of equal rank and,
experience with those of England. There was another
Resolution which, as it effected the Crown Revenue,
Must be put into the shape of an Address, and this
he proposed to do. He alluded to the payment of
King's fines and King's silver, on the conveyance of
lanes, which he proposed to be made through the
English Court of Common Pleas. After some other
remarks in support of his proposition, the Honour-
able Member observed, that it was the wish of the
people of Wales to partake.of the benefits of the Eng-
lish Constitution, by -having justice administered us
their own country in all respects as it was in England:
He then concluded by moving for the appointment of ,
a Committee to consider the present laws by which
justice was administered in Wales.
Mr. BARHANI seconded the motion. There was
no difference in the condition of the two countries,
except that of the language, which prevailed in a
very limited degree, and was daily falling away.—
But this circumstance could be no argument in
favour of the continuance of the present system of
Welsh jurisprudence, if in other respect: it was ob-
jectionable, for the proceedings of the Courts were..
in the English language. He was in favour of the
total abolition of the separate jurisdiction, and he
thought the people of the country were not against
such an abolition. It might be said that there was.-,
but one Petition before the House in its feeour ; but
this was accounted for very easily. Had there been!
a wish to encourage Petitions, they would have been
numerous, but it was thought prudent not to indis-
pose the people against their institutions without a
certainty that the proposed alteration could be ef-
iected—( Hear, hear).—t4 hen a Committee, in sti
former Session sat upon this subject, they examined
one of the Velsh Judges as to the feelings of the,
people with respect to any change in the system.—
Theiudge answered this question by producing an
Address which had been pret.ented to him by a Grand
Jury, deprecating any change. Much stress had been
laid on this circumstance, but it turned out that the
Judge had brought on this Address by his own-
Charge to that Gland Jury ; for in his Charge he no-
ticed and condemned the then proposed alteration.—
'lle best evidence that the people of that country did
not like the present system, was in the fact that they
would not trust to it ; for they removed their causes
into the superior Courts, notwithstanding the expense
and inconvenience which attended their doing so.—
He gave-his hearty support to the motion of his Ho-
nourable_Friend.
• Mr. JONES opposed the motion. lie said that
means had not been untried to obtain Petitions for
the abolition of the separate jurisdiction ; but-the peo-
ple cf %Vales weie in general satisfied with the pre-
sent system. Indeed, there was a Petition before the
• hlouse from the county of Carmarthen, most respect.
ably signed, against the abolition. The administra-
tion of justice in Wales had continued for many can..
writs ; the people were happy under it, and had not
complained against it. The argument of his Hon.
Friend (Mr. Alleyn) respecting the want of power of
the Court of Equity was singular enough ; because it
must be the fault of a suitor himself if he would
.apply to that Court for relief when he knew that it
could not enforce its own decrees, and that the Court
of Chancery, which could enforce its decrees, was
open to him. The fact, however, was otherwise.
The Court possessed the power of punishing a con-
tempt of its decrees. It might issue process of at-
tachment and sequestration, and would have done so
in Lord Kensington's case had the person injured
ap-
plied to the Court for relief; but the. Court could not
take extra-judicial notice of a disobedience of its- or-
ders. The evidence taken before a-former Commit-
tee was strongly against the proposed change.. That
Committee had been moved Tor by a Right Hon
Gentleman now no more (Mr. Ponsonby) under an
idea that the system was-founded in-corruption; but
he afterwards declared that he was surprised to find
that the Welsh Jurisdiction was so advantageously
I carried on, and that even that of England, in some
instances, might improve from it. The Committee
had examined many respectable individuals con-
tacted with Wales on the subject, most of whom had
strongly approved of the present practice. In parti-
cular, one of the witnesses had adverted to the corn-
iatively small expense of the suits carried on in the
Webb Courts.' The principal persons who before the
Committee had disapproved of the present system
of judicature were Lord Kensington (whose dislike
of it was not avowed until he had lost his cause
,in the Welsh Court), his Lordship's Solicitors, and'
I* Mr. Owen, a Barrister; but this Learned Gen-
Aeman was, day after day, in the course of his Un-
rsainatiOn, correcting or altering his evidence, so
that his own mind was not, •it ippeared, very de-
cidedly formed on the subject. I'he Attornies who
practised in the Courts were generally men of re-
spectable birth, educatiOn, and conduct, -and were
thought fit companions brmany lion. Members of.
that Houser and persons of emineet rank. The Bash
bad to boast of the names of Lord Kenyon; Sir Jas.
Mansfield, Sir VicaryGibbs, Sir 41ld Macdo-
nald, Sir Williasir Grant, the late Misteinf the Rolls.
and the present Mce-Chancellor and gluier of the

law. Aim** mason , by
for Vii* the juxisprodrce of that country war
dreamitiMecie of rpower of inamtang arbitrary iya.:
poi stint, at ploasure Of the landlord over his
mug. Dot this power equally existed in the remote-
parts Yorkshire, at the option of any despotic:
Aird. He admitted with his Hon. Friend, thatz
Jedges in Wales should be appointed by the
tenor, and' ndt by the Treasttry....aposi different pi
Ciples than political, and that they thotild htli Lave
setts inshattiouse. If this motion atm disposed alas
he expected it might,-he should bring in a Bill to re-
move these abuses, and he begged to say that his Bill
bad the sanction of the first lawyers. In conclusion,
he begged to observe, that he thought his Honour-
able Friend had not brought forward everything to
induce him to consent to change the long-established
jurisdiction of the principality of Wales. He motto
therefore, give the motion his negative.
Sir JAMES MACKINTOSH said, that the I ton.
Gentleman had hinted that he would introduce .t

. -
for removing some of the more gross abuses to %%Inch!
.the appointment of the Welsh Judges was expo:ea
Now h. (Sir J. Mackintosh) would- like to hear in
what mulls the Hon. Gentleman would couch some

of his clauses—such as that for preventing them from
being appointed on political grounds, and that for
having them named by the Lord Chancellor instead
of the representatives of the Lord Treasu,er. The
ground upon which the Honourable Member had at-
tempted to justify the reforms which he contenirlated
was, that the Judges m ere appointed tiron pis liticA
grounds, and not because of their fitness for dis-
charging the ditties of their officer. If %Li, had ir,r
been true, surely the lion. Member would not have
stated it; as it was perfectly shocking, compared
with the milder appellation of inferior Judges, %%hid/
had been bestowed on them by his I lon. Friend.—
' With tegard to the quoting of six or eight great
names, as having sat on the Welsh Bench, or pleaded
at the Welsh Bar, it was quite frivolous; and the ex-
istence of the Star Chamber could in like nrainier be
defended, by showing that Bacon and Coke, oust
others equally great, had been Members of that Court,
It was but a poor defence of the Weiskindicatory, to.
knew that a few great men had made it a stage nni
the road to political preferment. The mode in which
the Judges in England were appointed, was one of
the best securities for the proper. administratioa of
justice, and the Welsh Wad no such security. It
availed nothing that the people had not conipldined
of this evil; for on the subject of legislation the op-
nions of the people were not entitled to much resi.ect.
He had no wish to make the slightest allusion to the
character or conduct of individual Judges, but 1:
must say that they had been appointed in a manner
which ought not to be continued. He proceeded to
say, that with respect to increasing the number of
Judges, he was against such a measure, unless oa
the ground of absolute necessity. Where thei e was
but a small number of super for Judges, there was the
greater moral responsibility—the higher point of ho-
nour with regard to judicial purity, and the digni-
fied administration of the laws; and he considered
that one of the greatest errors and most signal mis-
fortunes into which some free States had fallen, was the
multiplication of Judges; for the effect of this was to
lower the tone of judicial integrity and honour, the
greatest calamity which could befal a country (I gear,
hear), as there could be no greater happiness than
the preservation of the high attributes of justice.—
It was therefore that he always looked on this
country as most happy on two points of its judicial
institutions. One was, that the superior Judges wen:
of a small and select number, and had a stifficiea
salary fcr the support of the dignity and decent
splendour of their stations, while in the next place the
inferior' Judges or Magistrates, being such as rave
their services gratuitously to their .country, were
course chosen from that class of persons who natu-
irally enjoyed the confidence and respect of their fel-
low-subjects. This indeed was a happy combinatien
of principles in the systeth of English jurisprudence.
,But, in the present instance, he wished to remove an
exception to this salutary combination. He was
jealous of the title of a Judge ; he wished to see it up-
held in its proper station, and with all its moral as
well as legal authority—(Hear, hear). He therefore
;could not approve of allowing that title to descend to
an inferior situation, and consequently lose something
of its high and venerable character. One of the first
objects of a good policy would be to keep the name
and station cf a Judge in the Commonwealth as high
as it could be in the estimation of mankind, by the
confined number and select appointment of the supe-
rior Judges. But when he said this, he must also confess
that he was not attached to any particular arrange-
ment; nor was he influenced at all by the Pythago-
rean power of Ministers, but would be very willing
to add to the existing number when the public neces-
sities required it ; and he thought the time was come
when such necessity existed—when it was necessary
to add to the number of the Judges of this realm, on
account of the increase of business, and for the pur-
-1 pose of saving a little of the time and lives of those
who filled the highest and most important stations in
society—(Hear,hear). It was his opinion that in ge-
aeral the greatest business would follow the Courts
where the most distinguished talents and learning
were found to preside, and therefore a dispropor-
tionate quantity must be thrown on the Court of
King's Bench, and naturally resulted from the very
constitution of that Court, from its ancient character,
les. appointments—and the important station it filled
rin the public eye. He would therefore consent to a
Iproposition for adding two Judges to the Courts of
Common Law, and would prefer that to any inequa-
lity among the Judges, while he would leave the dis-
tribution of business to their own arrangement. He
then thanked the House for the indulgence with which
he had been heard, and sat down- amidst sexprei-
'ions of approbation.
• Mr. SCARLETT stated he.y
Atli the opinion of his Hon. and d 'friend who

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WIMP'. GtaillepiaaloOf dui Or wianko be , • - . • of the greet aad•accoinplished Sir Wm. Jones,
to tyttha illi.i. • lace Mr ilakaset Williams, the late Mr Justice'
war employelopesilsy ou.sd effectually, as i.ndividual s?- team* offort.Geissausei,L.A.„.
dill'ar; ' rata:tithe Claw 'A,shun' t, Lord Oliebervie, the pretest Chancellor of
would take ca libw their own was applied, whilst Bin was rase a saka
that granted by Government was liable to be abused. ,
___,____.tbe * tit dinell...mammitailialle Ael (de "VrAer.
Jobs would exist in all countries, in England as aay A/IMM
of
nataTh____ _
wriategJarases. sr; hr- leery Bar were little ' 'Mid 4ith the- g : , the Exchequer, the late Mr. Dauncey, and Mr.Tatin.
where else. As to the extent of the measure, he would in'eats, ina-sionos ang Mina the 101, ; and that many of em haskiever had it •iiiitt ton, who had lately been honouted with a silk gown.
el
him nn diffarntimukaini3larther. ifhe law his gm/ Del ...... , ...... the upon brief in a criminal cue. And yet thete•Eientlemen lic could not Wks'', thet.the coon, 4nwficirsuch.
to any certain ut as the principle was
thentru7_l±lrwe Ameadenst Da " attim
Rgisit would have toospoond to Juries the law as it affected personages as these presided were not sufficient to•
doubtful, it was proper that Parliament should pro- DE, vigwww.RoanirrsOnLoblottof lul=
tile
adi.i.lias seinteeet,mvsb the liberties and lives of their fellow-videos. -'There answer all the eicla.of _justice. Re defied his Hon,
other b' •
were also •
.lections, and those too of a mild,. P`rterit to 'Ad dams one single instance of injustice'
teed cautiously. If it appealed that, under the ar- urn the ground of its ban( lai
___. .......,....A a„. ~,,,,,,L.nt em, practicable w_tt_w_sessisel_ Indoor,' d'• d°-"lrtith to eau cal nature, against the present syitem ofrappointing being done la "the tthonistrat ion of the ciiminal
—4' oh• eAliminercial and landed Inter". to the Bill 11,-1-1. T.A.,... That. vnieht hold' situations at the law. Another season advanced by his Hon. Friend