Star.
London, England, 1822-03-13 00:00:00

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sidered as a bona fide redemption of the Debt? Was!
it such as could jusaff tl4preient measure? It hadJ
been notified to everybody that the Sinking Flind
bad been ie a sunk of operation ; and it was well
knovin that the Public Debt had been increasing in a
much more rapid proportion. How then could it be
said that twenty-five millions had been redeemed?—
" Sunpose," said the Noble Earl, " that I had an in-
cumbrance on my estate to the amount of .10,0001.
and that I wished to raise kool. more byva mon.-
gage upon it: suppose the person advancing me the
money were to stipulate that I should not redeem the
mortgage until I extinguished 50001. of my original
debt : after that, I can get money at a less rate of in-
terest ; I therefore borrow 10,0001. and pay off 50001.
of my first mortgage: I then go to the mortgagee
who lent me the 50001. tell him that the stipulation
was fulfilled, and insist on my right to redeem that
mortgage. I ask whether I could be justified in doing
so? and whether, if the case were to come into the
Court where the Noble Earl presides, he would not
take some time before he decided in my favour ?
He would certainly take time to consider the ques-
tion ; and I trust the Noble Earl opposite will take
time to consider well the case now before the House,
and that he will consider it in all its bearings."—
He therefore thought there was great doubt as to
whether there had been such a bona fule extinction of
the debt that the holders of 5 per cents. understood
it to be such. He was surprised to hear a statement
from the Noble Earl opposite, that that House should
be guided by public opinion ; whereas they should
be guided by nothing but justice. As to the redemp-
tion of the Land Tax, he doubted whether it was not
a constructive payment, for by that operation no re-
duction had taker, place in the public burdens. It
was the same as if men had purchased stock, and
with that paid the Land Tax. It could, therefore,
be nothing more than a constructive payment. It
was said that the Act of Geo. 111. did not bear on
the question ; but he contended that it did. The con-
dition in that Act was, that there should be a bona
fide payment, and another Act explained the manner
in which that condition was to be fulfilled, by giving
public notice of the payments that were to be made.
Now, if there had not been an obvious reduction of
the National Debt, there was a case of grave and dif-
ficult consideration how far the Government could
be justified in taking a measure like the present. It
appeared to him that it was impossible not to hesitate
an 1 doubt, if the Na:ional Debt had been paid off in
the way stated ; and all he called on the House to do
was, to doubt. Ile desired nothing more than plain
and fair dealing ; and that if legitimate benefit was
to be obtained for the Public, their proceedings
should be free from all objections. As to Parlia-
mentary precedents, the proper one was' the Act of
Mr. Pelham ; but there was no precedent for this;
and he strongly objected to the provision relative to
dissents, and not requiring assents. All the holders
of the 5 per cents. bad an equal interest in that Stock,
and a fair option was not held out to them. The
Parliament had no right to give any preference to one
set of men before another, on the ground of dissent-
ing or not dissenting—such a preference was a gross
injustice ; because the first dissentients would labour
under a disadvantage, compared to the advantages
which later dissentients might possess. This was not
,
•Ily an injustice, but it merited eve:: a worse name. In
all ibis there might be great dexterity on the part of the
Chancellor of the Exchequer ; but it was a dexterity
unworthy of a great nation. It was more like the
dexterity of a gambler than of a Minister. Oa
these grounds he hoped the House would take time
to consider this measure. He did not know what
ossible disadvantage would accrue from delay. On
the contrary, if the country was in a prosperous
state, it would be a benefit—Wear, hear, heary*—
The Noble Lord had lately made a long develope-
ment of the prosperous condition of the country ; and
even ventured to prophecy that it would every year
be increasing in prosperity. Similar prophecies had
once been held out by Mr. Pitt; and everybody knew
how they were fulfilled. But it was not in the power
of the Noble Earl, or any other man, to say what
turn our affairs might soon take. If, at the time
when Mr. Pitt was holding forth his magnificent pro.
phecies, a man of the most gloomy imagination had
told him that at this very time the country would be
in the most wretched state of distress, be would have
been scouted as a madman. Yet the prophecy would
have been fulfilled. The Noble Earl had talked of
the peaceful policy of the country; and indeed no
man wonid be mote ready to give a sincere support
to that policy than himself. But had not a similar
policy been once held by Mr. Pitt? and was not the
country soon after involved in a long and destructive
war ?—(!dear, hear).—As to the hope held out of an
amicable adjustment of the differences between Rus-
sia and Turkey, he had great doubts on the subject.
He must, however, express an anxious hope that this
country would take no pal t in any war that might
break out. %Viten he looked at the situation of Europe
—when he considered the calamities that had fallen
upon Italy, in consequence of the policy we had
adopted—when lie turned his eyes towards Germany,
and found all the people there discontented with the
Governments which we supported—when he con-
templated the state of France, and beheld that coun-
try struggling against the Government we forced
upon het—in short, drawing his conclusions from
the events that were passing in every country on the
Continent, he could not help thinking that the flames
of war were likely to be once more lighted in Europe;
and lie was not so sanguine as to hope that we might
not be again involved in them—(Hear).—Their Lord-
ships would recollect that his Majesty himself, in his
Speech from the Throne, spoke in language not very
confident as to the peace of Europe remaining undis-
turbed.—The Noble Earl here read a passage from
the Royal Speech, which stated that it was impossible
for his Majesty not to feel interested in the differences
that had unfortunately occurred between the Court
of St. Petersburgh and the Ottoman Porte; yet at
the same time expressed a hope that, whatever might
be the result, England would not be drawn into hos-
tilities.—This Speech, continued his Lordship, was
'livered on the stb of February, and now, on the

12th of March, we were within a fortnight, or three
%reeks at furthest, of that period when, if war should
decided upon between Russia and the Porte, the
Impaign must necessarily commence. Yet even on
is very day, the 12th of March, all that the Noble

rl opposite could say, with respect to the stability
out peactiul tylations, was, that be would again

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write for the King their Satne he had put
into his mouth on the datof the Session. But
as it. was known that thisdifferPbtee between Russia
and the Porte riustiin their reb,ilt, materially affect
the policy of the present measure, was it not un-
just, he • would ask, to proceed any
that result was ascertained ? Even thoughfurther until
we might
escape being committed in hostilities on either side,
was it possible that, in the event of a war be-I
-tween them, the monied interest in this country should
not be affected? Government was bound to continue
paying interest on the Stock in question at the rate
of 5 per cent. up to the .sth of July next ; why, then,
was it necessary to urge this Bill with so much pre-
cipitancy ? By doing so they forced men into con-
tracts which they considered highly disadvantageous.
Moreover, he objected to the mode of registering dis-
sentients, as being very unfair. He called upon their
Lordships to pause before they adopted a measure
which, as it came before them, was very objection-
able. He only wished the House
.to stand clear,
and not lend itself. to any dexterous proceeding by
which advantage might be taken for an unworthy
purpose—(Hear, hear).
The Earl of HARROW BY contended that the
Stock in question had always been considered re-
deemable by law, and if it had not been so considered
it would not be at par, or at least only a little more,
while the three per cent. and other Stocks rose consi-
derably above par. It was quite impossible that by
the operation of a Sinking Fund of only one million
so large an amount of Debt as twenty-five millions
could be redeemed, without any other debt being
contracted in the meantime. But the Noble Earl
(Grey) had said, that by the operation of the law for
the Redemption of the Land Tax the public burdens
were not diminished. How could they be diminished
if money was not raised? But if the public burdens
were not diminished, the public debt was—(Bear,
hear!)—The Noble Earl proceeded to strew that the
difference between the principle of dissent and assent
was not worth arguing about. As to the likelihood
of a war between Russia and Turkey, different opi•
Mons were entertained upon it by different men. He
entirely agreed with his Noble Friend near him, that
if a war between those Powers was likely to produce
an unfavourable effect on the Fonds, the present
measure ought not to be adopted: but after witness-
ing the state of uncertainty in which the negotiations
between Russia and Turkey stood, were their Loi d-
ships to hold in suspense a measure of •great public
importance, till the Cabinet of St. Petersburg!) and
the Divan of Constantinople came to some hind de-
cision ? The Noble Earl then urged the advantages
which the Public must derive from the plan, and
said that those Noble Lords who were oppmed to it
ought not to call for delay, but state their ebjections
at once to the principle it involved.
Lord ELLENBOROUGH was certainly anxious
for further information on the merits of the question.
If the 2-1111 of Geo. 111. had any reference to the 25th
Geo. 11. it was clear that the Five per Cents. were
not redeemalde by law. In his mind, however, such
reference was not apparent. The first claim of the
creditor would naturally be, that the Sock should
not be done away till the existing Debt at- the time
being was reduced in the amount of twenty-five mil-
lions. The only advantage that could result from
delay was t7.e obtaining of further evidence ; and as
their Lordships bad the pcwer to call in the Judges,
he thought it might bee-expedient to do so. It did
not appear to him quite clear that the Five per Cents.
could, under existing circumstances, be redeemed,
as the law at present stood.
The Marquis of LANSDOWN was of opinion
that the Government had an undoubted right to re-
deem the Stock in question. He would not now
dwell on the circumstance of the Redemption of the
Land Tax, in corroboration of that opinion ; nor
should he advert to the expediency of consulting the
Judges, though any opinion which they might offer
in support of the measure would give him greater
confidence in his own. The Noble Marquis then
proceeded to combat the arguments cf Lord Har-
rowby, upon the question of dissent and assent, ob-
serving, that neither of two parties to a contract had
a right to force any disadvantageous measure upon
another. In the instance of Mr. Pelham, who had
proposed a plan for redeeming the four per cents. a I
different and better system had been acted upon.l
'There was then a penalty imposed on persons who
should neglect to declare their assent within a li-
mited time. By Mr. Pelham's plan the contract was
fulfilled to the letter; but it was quite otherwise in
the present one. The plan now proposed was upon
a principle of unfair constraint ; just as if a man who
was called upon to transfer an estate should be told
he must lose the advantage a the contract, unless he
accepted of the terms offered. He thought it very
objectionable that proper tine was not allowed to
persons for expressing their assent or dissent ; yet no-
thing was more just than that a fair time should be
allowed, for, without considering the present cii cum-
stances of Europe as being likely to affect the mea-
sure, he thought it would be advisable to wait for
some months; and should it then be found that no
inconvenience :nose from the measure, nor any com-
plaints made against it, the Noble Earl might tell
persons who deterred agreeing to his plan till it was
proved, that they should accept of less advantageous
terms than if they had made their option sooner.
This was done by Mr. Pelham, and the principle was
a very fair one. So far as this particular point went,
he entirely agreed with his Noble Friend (Earl Grey);
but on the legality of the measure, he thought that
the operation of the Act of Geo. 111. was fulfilled by
the Redemption of the Land Tax.
The Bill was then read a second time, and ordered
to be committed to-morrow.

Adjourned at Half-past Seven o'clock.
HOUSE OF COAIMONS.

Sir A. RAMSAY presented a Petition from the Landholders
of the County of Kincardine, complaining of Agricultural Dis-
tress, and praying that economy and retrenchment may be
exercised in the departments of public expenditure.—Ordered to
be printed.
Mr. RICARDO moved for Returns, stating the Amount of
Monthly Importations of Corn into the port of London, dis-
tinguishing Foreign from British, for the years 1819, 1820, and
1821.—Ordered.

The Order of the Day for going into a Committee on the
Lind Tax• Commissioners Names Bill was postponed to Thurs-
day next.
Mr. ROBERT SHAW postponed his motion fur the repeal
of the Irish Window Tax from the 7th to the 24th of April.
Mr. LUSHINGTON brought in a Bill for the repeal of the
Malt Tax, which was read a first time, and ordered for a second
reading to-morrow.
I►lr. BENNET presented a Petition from a number of poor;

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plerof mast,la the Coping.N=lftek tan-1
gerritte'llistresegs of the times, Wilikb their lives
a Unbent, and death acceptable, sod-praying that the House
wield devise some meatuFtlivellefoMwed to lie oo the table.
Mr. S. RICE moved for Returns °fibs Number ofEberilfe
Returns of the Elections of Temporal leers in Ireland for the
last ten years.
Mr. COURTENAY obtained leave to bring in a Bill to
amend the Laws relative to Hackney Coaches.

EDINEUROH POLICE DLL.
Mr. JOHN SMITH presented a Petition frotn the Cham-
ber of Commerce and Manufactures of Edinburgh, against the
said Bill. He said that there was not a body of mon in that city
more respectable for character and talents than the Petitioners.
Mr. KENNEDY bore testimony to the great respectability
of the Petitioners. He thought an unwarrantable attempt was
made to suppress the public opinion of the inhabitants of Edin-
burgh, with regard to the present Bill.
Mr. 'HONDAS said, that all the Learned Bodies of that City
were advocates of the Bill, and that men high in rank and pro-
fession supported it.
Mr. HUME said, however respectable the few individuals
might be who supported the Bill, they were of little considera-
tion when compared with the fourteen Corporate Bodies, who
comprised the nineteen-twentieth of the population of Edin-
burgh, all of whom had petitioned against the Bill.
The Petition was ordered to be referred to the Committee on
the MIL

VAGRANT LAWS.
Mr. CIIETWYND called the attention of the House to the
subject of a notice he had given for that day, to move for a Bill
to consolidate all the existing laws relating to the apprehension,
punishment, and treatment of vagrants. Of the necessity of
having this class of offenders under the correction of the law there
could be no doubt, and from the inefficient state of the laws re-
lating to them, chiefly owing to their multiplicity and intricacy,
too many instances had come under the knowledge of the Houe
rot to shew the necessity of some new arrangements. He had
intended to bring the subject under the consideration of the
House last Session, and although he had been prevented, he did
not make it cause of regret, having had so much more leisure
for acquiring information and maturing his plan ; and from the
assistance of the Mendicity Society he had derived the most im-
portant hints. The object of the Bill he desired to bring in
would be, first, to consolidate all the lawi on the subject ; and
next to define the precise offences which were to subject any per-
son to the operation of the Statute. He wished to separate the
cases of the criminal from the idle and disorderly—the dissolute
and sturdy from those that were comparatively innocent, having
been driven to a state of vagrancy from necessity, rather than be-
taken themselves to it from islatizt. Of the utility of such arrange-
ment and classification, there could be no question, when it was
remembered that the law made no distinction between prosti-
tutes, ballad-singers, prize-fighters, and the plate-holders for a
charitable purpose at a Church door. It was highly desirable
that there should be an uniformity of practice among 'Magis-
trates throughout the kingdom, and for that purpose it was that
he wished to see the laws placed within a short compass. The
third object of the 11111 would be to specify the punishment for
vagrancy, and to adapt them to the present state of society.—
Ile would not go through the old statutes to chew the different
punishments enacted, such as branding and burning vagrants,
which being row obsolete, it became necessary to change the
nature of this punishment with the changes in society. In act-
ing thus, he should be guided by the opinion of that enlightened
magistrate, Mr. Colquhoun. lie had that morning received a
letter from a Magistrate, who informed hint that the simple ex-
penses of passing vagrants for one year, for the counties of Betts
and Wilts, were upwards of .et!,000. It was plain, therefore,
that the interference of legislation was required here. The nett
point to which his Bill would be directed was, the common
lodging-houses for vagrants, which swarmed in some parts of the
metropolis, and were actually hot-beds for vice. These he should
propose to be put under the surveillance of the Police. The lion.
Gentleman concluded by moving for leave to bring in a Bill to
facilitate summary proceedings by Justices of Peace and otherl.
Mr. GIPPS seconded the motion, but hoped the Bill would
not be hurried through the I hurt,.
Sir I. COFFIN thought such a Bill would be highly useful.
Leave was then given to bring in the Bill.
Mr. CIIETW ]'NI) then moved for leave to bring in a Bill to
regulate the form of conviction in all cases of delinquency under
the Vagrant Act. The necessity of such a Bill would be felt
when it was known that it Was a matter of difficulty even with
the greatest lawyers, to draw up the right form of conviction in
cases nearly similar. The object of his Bill would be to esta-
blish the same form to meet all convictions of the same class.

:%Ir ll 1 T ll. 1.0 it thought the Ilan. Gentleman was en-
titled to the thanks of the House, for his praiseworthy intentions
and exertions. lie feared, however, he would not be able to
frame ouch a statute for the proposed end, as that some roguish
attorney should not discover a loop-hole by which to evade it.
Leave was then given.
PCRLIC RECORDS.

Sir JOHN NEWPORT moved, that the Resolution of the
House of the 7th instant, relatiog to the Public Records, be sub-
tinkled to a Committee, in cider to carry the intention of the
House into effect.

After a few words from Mr. D. GILBERT and Sir J. Newroar,
a Committee was nominated lot the said purpose.