Star.
London, England, 1825-02-16 00:00:00

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it'rer parts of the measure—his approbation of
,s•P••• 1111• C 'depend on their peculiar characteristics.
i• • xertty-three years which he had been in Parliament he bad
• o 1.. r the cause of the Irish and English Catholics' and so keg
had a seat be should vete in the sante manner. Nothing lent
..•,. thing less ought-to satisfy the Catholics—(llear, hea:)..—
N • •I•ly sought their rights, and in and out of the / louse he should
- • them with all bli power. Let the Housilook at the relative
I n .11 ax millions of Catholic., and one million of Protest.
.le trusted the chokes would never submit. He (Mr.
111 was into rho eveuing'of lit% but if be was on
death, his last prayer should be, that if the Catholics
,• detects to resist, their resistance might be successful—(Cry of
:*I4ERTSON said, if the Catholic Association
• r.e..ival andtonititutional, it ought to be upheld;
Ltri nut it ought to be put down. The Right Hon.
• is.. Al....racy-General for Ireland had told the House,
h r ci tilfei of the Catholics were founded in right
sr v. ice, and defied any one to produce a rational
.1 ...rient against them. Vas it not consistent, then,
• v ire spitit of the Constitution, that they should ob-
i me claims? The suppression of the Catholic As-
. st• so had been argued on the same grounds as that
Ater Associations; hat each should stand on its own
1.0 t 1.4. The Right Honourable Secretary for 1re-
.... s•ated,• that the Lauded Gentlemen wete adverse
. e Catholic Rent. That in his (Mr. Robettson's)
1.. n, was the origin of the present Bill. The ries,-
isi ••• ut the country were owing to the conduct of the
• i.• d Gentlemen. If the peasantry of Leland had
rotected from the Tithe Proctor, and other op-
t• .: • oats, by the Landed Gentlemen, the House should
wew be called upon to put down the Catholic Asso-
• • ion' The Protestant Cletgy of that part of the
•.
ted Kingdom were not to blame for the sufferiegs
s• peasantry. The evidence then on the table of the
I r, skewed that, in most ca.es, they had from time
r•—ssiie relinquished one-third of the tithe as a conces-
•,.. • tip the wants of the people. But, notwithstanding
• concessionsahr Irish peasant tetnained oppressed
t 1.1 the lowest state of degradation. These evils arose
-.:u the landed interest; and because the Catholic Rent
e„, applied to redress them, the Catholic Association
.• .0 be put down. The Honourable Nlembeis fbr
Ross and Plympton Erle (Mr Dugherty and Mr.
0 I.) eulogised the admini.tration of justice in 1re-
...;. and he supposed it merited the panegyr. But
• it benefit did the unfottunate thus derive who were
,!iie to pay the expenses of obtaining justice? The
supplied the deficiency—afforded the protection
. ten the Country Gentlemen ought to have given to
I I.e .ple. These Gentlemen put the tithe, which the
• .• •2, y remitted, into their pockets. The Right Ho-
•ioalile the President of the Board of Controul said
• rasp:akin only would establish peace and prosperity
but it would require much more to produce
• !..t effect, for nothing could or ought to satisfy the
t•iolics but being made not inferior in any point of
• e.. to the rest of the community. Lord Clare had
4111.. in discussing the Union, that if not an Irish
•iiber were returned to the British Parliament. he
id confide die welfare of the nation to the English
• siation. Re (Mr. Robertson) believed if there was
r.... a single Member from Ireland in thit House, it would be
I.: Oct governed than at present. The Right Honourable and
rimed Attorney-General maintained chat the separation of the
countries was chimerical; but was not Portugal once, an in.
,r.. 1 part Of Spain ? and if justice be net dote the Isiah. will
• ..4.• en opportunity to exact it. The Irish Atte:my-General said,
t the longer Emancipation was delayed, the more difficulty in
ccittg it. Was it to be Withheld then for ever? Whatever mis-
. • might attend the collection of the Catholic rent, the Asso-
.. :on ought to be put down by concessions—by repealing not by
't. ling laws—(Hear).
Sir JOHN NEWrowr said, he was more confirmed
t -I. ever that, by refusing concession and enacting pe-
r i. laws, we were producing a crisis fearful to con-
i.• is,Aate. The priacipre,,on which the Bill was de-
;Tiled Wit of a most extraordinary' nature. No evi-
.. Ate was produced, but it was said we were to legis-
Von notoriety. But the cast, as stated by the At-
.l ney-Generalfor Ireland, the Under Secretary of State,
the Chief Secretary for Leland, were all contra-
y—(Hear, hear). The Attorney-General for Ire-
said, the Catholic Priests were the conservators of
public peace. The Under Secietary, the Member
t Londonderry, declared that the Priests were the
of all the evils of Ireland—(Hcar, /sear).—The
.tholic Association was established when the Orange
N .1. icties had boasted that they had dotibled their num-
bet s, and when the Member for Londonderry sated in
si House, that as the oath of the Orange Society was
i ken away. hd would himself become an Orangeman.
( lear, heal: The Honourable Baronet read a letter .
I;:issu the Eatl of Fingal, in which he lamented that be
is prevatitid by illness from taking a part in the pro-
; dings dtf tee AiLaitiOn at this alarming crisis. He would Ask
lotierntani, if they passed this BM, bow far they meant torpor
.Owe they proposed to stop? There was the most positive proof
the relative numbers of the Catholics over the Protestants in
Ireland Were.eapidly increasing ; this fact proved, that it would be
t..:posslble long to refuse justice to the people of Ireland; and why
titiuttl we tan the erroneous risk that attended any longer delay?—
far). The people of England knew that the Catholics bad deep
▪ bitter causes of resentment. He should, however, conclude in
?tie words of an inimitable writer, which he thought were peculiarly
:gplicable to the situation s.f the Catholics-
--" A Morn,
Where waning clouds contend with growing light."

lie believed the passing of the Bill would be mewled with most

iai,thievotte coutequence!.
Mr. VESEY FITZGERALD said, it was with regret
:old :wow he felt Waited compelled to °give a vote
which might appear to bear oa his Catholic country.
Imn. Though he would support the Bill, there was no
Lfifficulty to the country which he would not rather
vi.counter than support it, .on the grounds which had
kern stated by some Members who had spoken on the
tide. It was a measure which nothing but
;gong necessity could justify. He could make great
,ii.,wance fin the language of the members of 'the Ca-
itinlic Association; hut he was of opinion that their in-
irrierence with the course of justice must be prejudi.
cirri. Everything which was recommended to Paths.
el lent for the purification of the course of justice in Ire-
old had been adopted. The manner in which Sheriffs
Nlagistrates were appointed in Ireland had long
a just subject of complaint, but both kid been
a great degree refo: med. He wanld not deny that
iixte might he some abuses in the administration of the
but he looked for their correction—not from the
Cathodic Association, but from the remedies the Con-
stitution had provided. He did not join in a general
condemnation of the proceedings of the Association ;
there was much excuse for what they had said, and 'pro-
bable justification for a great part of what they had
dine ; but they had excited an alarm in the minds of
many timid Protestants, the natural effect of which
ood be counter-associations, which would render an
ynpaitial administration of the laws impossible. He
rots satisfied that iltrtranquillity of Ireland might be,
1% some degtee,Atributed to the Catholic Association,
and still more to the unceasing efforts of the Catholic
hear). Nothing disewas calaphifled of in the

administration of justice. or the ...siltation sad canduet of ;le
Magistracy of Irelbst couldo mitt beneficially doggsek•
zeitrups=turbo Ha tinth by die Or,
, e provident of were not wilily
ipplicableiirstge Ausociationili to • he mead 04,
think It e to his support. }Ramis% ' *pioorpttos all Awed-
miens. jaati Ids vete for the 1111,14 lint conviction thin
the'soper*Porrof theilLssociation woolkhecelente the progress 'of
1

the Catholic cause.
Lord ALTHORP said, that having wished before the
close of the debate to deliver his opinion upon the Bill,
he would take the opportunity of following the Right
Honourable Gentleman who had just sat down, thinking
gist the usual agreement of_opinion between that Gen-
tleman and himself upon the general principles of this
su6ect, would save him from the necessity 'of detaini
the House for any great length-'of time. He age
with him in thinking that the fact Uleaquiring into the
grievances of Ireland, by a Committee of that Haupt!)
would-be productive of good in that country. But he
had listened with the greatest attention to that Right
Honourable Gentleman's speech, and could not find ‘n
it one argumtnt in favour of the measure before the
House—(Hear). lie had declared his objection to
the Catholic Association, but had not gone so far as to
say that it should be put down by a Bill of Pains aad
Penalties. The question was not, however, confined as
to the putting down this Association. Neither was it,
whether the mode proposed by this measute was the
best mode ? But as this measure was an infringement
upon the liberties of the people, the real question was,
s hether this WAS the only mode?—(Cheers.) The Right-
I lonourable Gentleman agreed with him that there was
at least one other mode of attaining this end, and that
was by granting the Catholic Claims—(Hear, hear).—
At present they were merely attacking the symptoms,
leaving the root of the disease untouched. As long as
the present union among the Catholics remained, which
he WAS hippy to see, there would alWays be some means
found by which six millions of discontented subjects
might make themselves heard—(Hear). It was is vain
to introduce a Bill of Pains and Penalties to prevent the
expressions of complaint. Hitherto they had only ar-
gued half the question, for it was not as to the policy
or necessity of putting down this Association by force.
It was generally admitted that the Catholic Association
was a great inconvenience; but was it not a necessary
one, in the existing state of the laws? If so, the only
quiet mode of getting rid of it was by changing those
laws. It had been argued in the course of the debate,
that one effect of the Catholic Association was to put
off, to an indefinite period, the attainment of the Catholic
claims. In this opinion he could not agree. Many
Gentlemen might feel a prejudice against it, but no man
could say that the present state of Ireland could exist
for ever. He thought, howesCr, that the proceedings
of the Catholic Association had in reality forwarded the
question. Much had been saidabout their interference
with the course of justice. He was aware as to theob-
jections of any Association in the character of a prose-
cutor. But the case in this instance was a good deal
,modified. The Catholic Association had merely sup-
plied funds to those whose poverty would not allow
them to sustain a prosecution, antsurely this tended
very _much to lessen the objection. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer had said, that if the Catholic Claims
were granted, the Catholic Association would still con-
Ainue. He did twit believe this. The Volunteers of
'1762 were a similar case; so long as they had any
grievance to complain of they were supported by the
people, and Parliament could not put them down. As
soon as this ceased, and they had no longer injustice on
their side, a single Resolution of Parliament bad power
to put them down. Thus it was with the Catholic As-
sociation; let Parliament hot grant the claims of the Catholics, and
that body would no longer possess the power *of inguencing the
minds of the people--(Hear, hear).
Mr. Hvsnssow, Mr. Wcrnzartu., and Mr. W. Lana rose at the
same time. After a brief contention as to which of the =di•
dates should ha lie the preference, the two focuser Gentlemen
gave way, and
The HonourableW. LAMB said, an Association like
the Catholic, taking into their consideration, cad
making all the concerns of the State subjects di their
discussion, was in the highest degree obiectionablo, sad
calculated to injure the Catholic cause in this country.
The person at the head of the Association was a man a
great ability and matt** years, and in daily practice as
an Advocate, and what fell from him could not be eat
cused as it might be from an tinpractila speaker. Wa-
it to be borne that a selfeconstituted general asaeMbly
Should give itself permanence, and discuss all public
grievances ?—(Hear, heal). These public bodies had
been called the safetr valves of the State, that carried
°if the steam that might otherwise explode and spread
rain around ; bat Might they sot be compared to the firtitscebelow
that raised the steam sad addled all the danger t—i(Hear, beer).:—
Whip the House of Commons dimmed a promentios, was k not
the papaw opinion that the man was seat to trial prejadloed, by
the opinion of the Howse of Osmium being declared against him 7
(Hoer, bear). The Asesseiadoit was sullen at the head ofa people
dirtiest in a state of rebellion from the grievances they were surer.
ing—(Hear, hear).
Sir FRANCIS BURDETT said, the words of Mr.
O'Connell, in the Address to the Catholic People, had
been severely commented on. It was unfair, and un-
just towards Mr. O'Connell, in his absence, to put the
worst possible construetionon his words. No book that
ever was written but might be in that way distorted.
Englishmen would recollect what Sydney• said an hit
trial, when an attempt was Oracle by * witked Clown
Lawyer to distort his meaning, that the Bible Itself, by
taking a separate passage. might be made to-assert that
there was no Gon—(Hear hear). Everything that ought
most to be kept in mind—the intention, was disre-
garded. Mr. O'Connell first appealed to them by every
1 good motive, and then even by a bid motive; to do
'what—to hate the Orangemen—no, but to preserve
peaces—.(Heal, hear). It was indeed a new thing to be
told that oppression should not beget hatred—(Heerr).
What! would -the Hon. Gentleman have had Mr.
O'Connell says " by the love, reverence, and respect
you owe to Orangemen?'—(Hear).—Presently the
Hon. Gentleman would pass sentence upon the beauti-
ful line of the patriotic Poet Burns—
.. By oppression's woes and pains."
The Poet appealed to the natural sentiment, the hatred
generated by oppression, to induce his countrymen to
vindicate themselves from slavery by the sword; but
the Catholic Association used the appeal as an incite-
ments° obedience and good order, and to the attain-
ment of constitutional rights by constitutional means.
It was by no means new to make an appeal to bad mo-
tives the incentive to good conduct. llhakspeate makes
Hamlet address the spit it of his father—
" Art thou a Ppirit of health or goblin dunned T.
Bring'st with tire airs from heaven or blasts from hell,
Be thy intents wicked .r 'charitable —."
'Bat be would not longer dwell in Justification of an
expression that escaped from a heart but sting with its
wrongs—(flear). The lion. Gentleman had asked, Wll4
not the Catholic 'Association the foliate, instead of the
safety-valve? Ile would say no—he saw the furnace

under the Association in the Penal Laws—( !leer ).—/
Th4Vadlillt ,Association contakied -a Mt -of nilbes
whidb, if NO' in that House, mist cobintand the ret
orget 61411 its MembEri. At the' bead of the English
Wants the venerable Earl FitzWillians, who united
evtfy Ideate, and at the head of the Irish part, his equal
in excellence, which n 6 man could exceed, Earl Fingal.
It had been asked, how those who opposed the Bridge-
street Association could support the Catholic Associa-
tion ? That argument did not apply to him, for he
preferred the Bridge-street Association to ex•officio
information. He thought it the less evil of the two.—
The Catholic Association only enabled the poor of their
own persuasion to obtain the protection of the law,which
was otherwise inaccessible—(Hear, hear). He supposed
it would be shewn that the Catholic Rent wasemployed
to pervert the course of justice, to bribe witnesses, or
intimidate'Jniles ; but no such thing was even alleged
by the Secretary for Ireland, who had made such a par-
tial statement as to put himself out of Court as a witness.
The question was one of vital importance, not only
to Ireland, but to England. He could not at first take
pon him to say what might be the consequence of six
millions of people havinobeirjust complaintsanswered
by a Bill of Pains and Penaltiett but he now came to
the House armed with the declaration of the Catholics,
that they would pay -submission to the law, when en-
acted, whatever it might be, and would only appeal to
the justice of the Hoare to be heard at the Bar against
its enactment—(Hear, hear). The Members of the Ca-
binet we, e so unequally yoked, that thegreatest Arils
of the country stood still because they could not agree.
The Right Hon. Secretary for Foreign Affairs said, the
Cabinet were divided by a serpentine line—that line bad
been called the line of beauty, but was never described
by any moralist as Oak line of integrity—(Hear, hear).
Such a Cabinet was best described by Milton, in his
description of Chao.,

- Ilimm•••=••••••" where eldest Night
" Aid (lass, ancestors of Nature, hold
44 Eternal anarchy amidst the noise
44 Of endless wars, and by confusion stead.
0 For but, cold, moist, and city, four champions Sem,
" Strive here for mastery, and to battle bring
" Their embryo atoms ; dray around the Sag
" Of each his faction, In diskfaction, several clans
• • • • • • ,
" Swarm populous. • • •
• • m T. whoa thew most adhere
" He rules a moment ; Chase amply *sr
" And by decidea mere asthma the fray
. Chance he reigns ; Den him, high arbiter,
" governs all." (Loud cheering.)
Either the-present Cabinet had sat for its picture to the
poet, or this was the prescription according to which it;
was prepared—(Hear, hear). England and -Ireland were
said to be in a state of prosperity—the first time, he
believed, that Ireland was ever prosperous. Was it not
strange, that while the King, in his Speech, was etUlt-I
ing in the prosperity of Ireland, he should at the same
time recommend a Bill of Pains and Penalties against
,that country? It was said the Catholic Association had'
not been defended in that House ; but was ever any case'
so shattered as that stated by the Secretary for Ireland
was by his Honourable Friend below him (Mr. Aber-
momby)? The Catholics had been se long oppressed,
that it was natural for the Association to give credit to
any complaint of oppression that was made to them ;
but how did they proceed when they believed the com-
plaint ?—they sent the case for investigation to a Court
of Justice-4liter, hear). They were not to be con-
demned for complaints addressed to them ? What would
the Orangemen say if they were held answerable for all
that Sir Harcourt Lees had written and addressed to
them? It appeared by the statement of the Attorney-Ge-
neral for Ireland, that it was the Voluntary confidence
of the people of Ireland in the Catholic Association
that had roused the jealousy of the Government,
even though they bad a standing army, and laws that
were a &strata gas the country, for their support.—
The Association was protected by the law—the Attorney
'General of Ireland had appealed to a Grand Jury, and
they laimidecided against him. That Right Honourable
Gentleman had said he would not Ott any restraint
upon the liberty of the Irish people ; it was childish to
gay they were not restrained when they were prohibited
.from doing what they could do before. It was said
the measure would be temporary ; but unless the
Catholics of Inland were wiser than the Cabinet of
England, it must continue, or be succeeded by worse.
The loss of Ireland would be an evil far beyond the
loss of Animism; evil as was the dreadful convict in
`Which Wit unnecessarily engaged with France, it would
,be as dust in the balance compared with the resistance
of the united people of Ireland--(Hear, hear, hirer).
...When a conquered pmple_ resisted the Romans, :tad
their chiefs were brassg t before the Senate, and asked
what punishment did their leader deserve? the answer
was, such a punishment as a lover of liberty deserves..--
The Ronaaa Senate had magnanimity enough to grant
their freedom to men who proved themselves worthy of
'it. Wonld to Goa the British Parliament would imi-
tate dte example—(Hear, hear). When the Catholic
Petition should be brought to him, be should be greatly deep-
poiated if he could empwsuade then to place it in the hands of the
Attorney-General of Ireland, to whom the great Grattan had be-
queathed she cause of his country, and be should be, too, liwy to
assist to due utmost of Ids humble power. The Honourable &met.
sat down amidst the londest cheering. ,
Mr; Secretary CANNING—Sir, after so unusual i
length as that to which this debate has been protracted,
it was natant' to expect that considerable confusion
would arise, in consequence of thlidifferent topics intro.
dated by the different speakers. Bat with the view
that I take of die subject, it is my business., to (WIWI
tangle it of this confusion, and reduce the various pAttsl
to their several and respective bearings. The question
before the House refers urthe mode in Which we shall
deal with certain Associations in Ireland, alluded to in
the King's Speech, at the opening of the Session, and
noticed by ourselves in an Address, by which we stand
pledged, not as to what we should do, but to topsider
as to what should be donee To this question has been
added, what I cannot deny to be akin to it, the whnle
of which is commonly called the Catholic Question. To
this again was added the question respecting the general.
conduct of the Administration, and the part which I have
acted in particular has beekintroduced with many com-
ments, epecially by theHou.BAtt.who has just sat down.
Though it is with rest unwillingness that t shall speak
of myself, the course which the discussion has taken,
leaves me no alternative. It will be necessary for me to
touch upon this subject also. I shall therefore divide
the question into four parts—first, the imnu diate ques-
tion of the Association ; secondly, the Catholic Qiies-
dors in its comprehensive sense; thirdly, the conduct of
the Government; and, fourthly, that part which relates
et, myself alone. With respect to the existence in Ire.
pad of an Association dangerous to the peace of the

'country, and hostile to the spirit of the Consitutioa,
this is a fact which I have not beard any man venture
to deny during the debate. The question, therefore,
comes to this—whether, having received from the
Throne 'a description of the evils attending the existence
of such au Association in Ireland, and replied to that
communication by an Address in which we bound our:
selves to apply some remedy, we shall now take into our
consideration the means to be proposed for that purpo,e,
or whether we shall turn round on the Throne, and say,'
r We have, on deliberation, determined that the Crown
is deceived ; that the description given in the Royal
Speech of the existing Associations, it, in all its parts,-
untrue ; that, true it is that those Associations do exist,
but that it is untrue they are irreconcileable with the
spirit of the Constitution ; that, true it is that that As:
sociations have extensive infibenceibut that it is untrue
they kindle, create, or exasperate animosities ; thac ttee
it is that these Associations are in active operation, but
that it is untrue that they contribute in any degree to
retard the course of national improvement : the Crown,
therefow, has been .misled by false advice, when it gave
them this character, and it is our duty to leave that
part of the Speech without any consequence, and by
our refusal to interfere by our authority, to confirm,
sanctiodand establish these Associations?'—(Cheers)—
that is the practical question which we ate now called
upon to decide. Is it possible that any man, looking
to the nature of that body, the acts it has performed,
and the functions it has exercised, can think of giving
permanence and stability to its existence? Self-elected
—self-appointed—self-assembled—self-ailourned—ac-
knowledging no superior—levying money on the F.eo-
ple—(Cries of no, no !) —ioterfering with the adminis-
tration of justice; the judging individuals before trial,
and rejudgiug and denouncing afterwards those whom
the law had set free.; such are the acts by which this
Association is known, and is that an Association which
yrs will agree to establish by declaring it to be con-
sweet with the Constitution ? In the next place, are
you prepared to say that it has no tendency to excite
animosities? The intemperate expression contained in
.their Address to the Catholics of Ireland, has been.often
alluded to during the debate, but an Honourable and
Learned Gentleman (Sir J. Mackintosh), undertaking to
explain it away, has said that it would be unfair to fir
coon any particular expression, as an indication of
the gineral spirit in which the whole was conceived.
Granted, if the expression was made use of in the heat
elf debate, or struck out in the collision of argument—
if at was hastily avowed, and there wasayason to believe
that upon reflection it would be willfrigly recalled ; but
this was a deliberate expression, introduced into a writ-
ten document, and if it should appear that the objec-
tion was pointed out to those 'who had used it, and
was afterwards deliberately retained, it is enough to
show the animus of the person wlab..- used it, and to
prove that no forced interpretation of words so plain
is necessary to ensure their condemnation. The
Honourable Gentlemen opposite have felt this, and
they have endeavoured, but, I think, in vain, to ex-
tricate the Association from the difficulty ; never did
I know them take so much pains to put a forced
construction on words as plain in their meaning as pen
can write or eye can read—(Cheers). We have been
told by a Right HonourableGentlmnan (Sir H. Parnell),
the Member for oqe of thr counties of Ireland, that
this expression had not the same for ce iodic Irish lan•
gunge as in the English—(A laugh). Of that I can-
not profess to judge, and the assertion man be received
by the House quantum valeta. I observe, that almost
every Gentloman.who has spoken on the other side, has
endeavoured• to give some specific explanation of this
phrase, but the palm was left to my Hon. and, Learned
Friend (Sir J. Mackintosh), who spared no. labour in
his efforts to accomplish the task, in which his pre-
decessors had all so evidently failed. The extensive
research he bestowed on this expression, and the Ira-,
limas and *tried shapes in which he brought it out
of the crucible of his philosophical imagination, will
continue to excite wonder and delight, as long as•
the most masterly ingenuity, unalloyed by sophary,.
is held as it deserves to be, entitled to perfect adv
miration—(Hear, hear). He had saisfiedi himself,
and he seeand to fancy he could convince the
House, that, after all, the expression was no such very
bad thing in itself. " Why," said he,• w for example, I
am no very dangerous man, and yet I bate a Tory vio-
lently"—tad lasigh—Some men bate cats, some dogs—
sow have one antipathy, and mime another. I infer,
therefore, that this expression, however strangely it may
attest sound in our ears here, may have an excellent ef.
feet in preserving tranquillity and generating kindness
elsewhere—(A bang4.—bWe know not what vast bene-
fits may be produced by applying these antipathies in
aid of friendly feelings—lA 14644—Indeed, all was
made out so comfortably, that nothing then of the
lion and the lamb—the leopard and the kid, lying down
together, could be anticipated. sThis reminds me of'
what I and that Hon. Member have read in a comedy
that we both equally admire. Mrs. Malaprop, when
giving her daughter some advice as to the mode in
which she should -conduct herself towards a suitor,
says, " It is always best to begin with a little eva-
sion. I bated your poor dear father like any black-
*amoor, yet /ou see what a good wife I make him."--
Rut, not satisfied with this defence,my Hon.and Learned
Friend has ventured an opinion not new, I believe, to
philosophy, and wanting nothing to recommend it but
the addition of a little truth. My Hon. and_ I.earned
Friend has described it as a judicious suggestion of mot al
philosophy, to lead men to virtue by the opposition of
their vices. This might do very well for those who
had many vices, but how was the poor man to fare who
happened to have one vice only ?—(A laugh).. Accord-
ing to ,this theory, in the ordinary course (if life, if I dis-
charge a servant, the worst character I could give him
wirrionenlddbe,
ifthdaistphoesehdadtooanclyt o
would send me another servant with two vices. He would
consistentlynianitii4l Ho
n"h his arca:need,
say, if I send you a man who, I confess,
is a thief, but
he is a drunkard also. If you can make his drunken-
ness act owhis thievishness, you will cure him of both
his vices"—(Cheers and laughter). But my .Honour-
able and Learned Friend quoted himself as an I'lstabee;
desirous to be, according to Pope, like another Longinus,
" Himself the great sublime be draws."
(Continued blighter). Such was the new philosophy of
vices. My Honourable Friend, the Member for
Knaresbor °ugh (Sir J.Mackintosh), referred to the semi-
meats of Dr. Johnson respecting hearty hatred, and
I.
:told us that the Doctor would have two reasons fog
hating him—first, because he was a Whig, and next,
because he was a Scotsman. But, no—Dr. Johnson
would tell him he was not a fit object for hatred . in
either......:
s i
tc,hyaorua catreer,toom
becauseuch
Whig—(Cheers), and too much of a Whig to be a
tbhfe a Doctor
Scotsman
good. Scotsman r-(Loud cheering, and laugitter).-.•
wou
to ldbete a tell
g him

I hope* hoverer, that I mat meet my Honourable and
Learned Riad at that Club which was formed by tile
Learned Doctor. I am sure I shall be always glad to
meet hint, andl am equally sure he will prove ars ac-
ceptable to me, as no doubt he would have done lb the
Learned Personage who:,,e prejudices he would have
conquered. But for myself, I must say, I do net thissik,
there is any moral benefit to be derived from calling on
persons to do good by an apt eal to the vices of their
constitution. As matter of evidence, then, and not as
a ground of charge against the Catholic Association, I
Utter to that expression in their address, as tending, if
sot to excite, at • least to exasperate animosity. Is
this House prepared to answer this question-64 Whe-
ther the existence of the Association is conducive to,
aps is calculated to retard the improvement of Ireland?"
this is a proposition on which I hold it to be impos-
bible to entertain two opinions—(Cheers). But the
ilotionrable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett) expresses his sur-
krise that when the Kings Speech declares that the
ingdom is in a flourishing state, and that Ireland par-
takes of the general prosperity, there is a strange in-
,tonsistency in calling for repressive laws to be applied
to that part of the kingdom ! Inconsistency ! Sir, I
see no inconsistency in those parts of the King's Speech ;
I see the reverse. the fact that Ireland is improving
in all the great branches of public prosperity, is esta-
blished by the testimony of all who know anything of
the cocotte. Inconsistency, Sir ! Is it inconsistent to
say that Ireland is advancing in all the ingredients of
prosperity, as is manifest from all we know, and
from communications directly made on the subject ;
but that one particular evil exists which obstructs the
progress of that prosperity, by dividing society—by
diverting capital from its natural and productive
course—by destroying the confidence by which
commerce flourishes—by embittering the intercourse
between Man and man in the affairs of life ? It is idle,
Sir, to endeavour to say that this evil does not obstruct
6:establishment of manufactures, of commerce, of
wealth, and general prosperity. My lion. Friend
knows, as well as I do, that trade and prosperity were
setting in full upon Ireland. While this Association exists,
it must be allowed to stem the tide ; and if not to stop,
at least to check its flew—(Cheers). Is it not then the
duty of the Legislature to restore that state of things
which tended so rapidly to place Ireland in her proper
place in the scale of nations?—(Hear.) With respect
to the question, whether it is necessary to put down an
Association arrogating unconstitutional power, and
tending to exasperate the feelings of men, and to
check the prosperity of the country ? It is easy to
answer it without introducing the word Catholic, or
defining what its religious opinions may be—(Hear).—
The reason for putting it down, be it Catholic or Pro-
testant, is not that it Is religious, but that it is of a mis-
chievous political character. I do not attribute to the
Catholic—using that word only to discriminate—l do
not attribute to the Catholic Association that it affirms
itself to possess a representative character. Undoubt-
edly it affirms no such thing. If it had, no law would
be necessary to put it down. Bat, Sir, I cannot shut
my eyes to the tact, that a representative character has
been attached to it in the debates of this House. 11
notoriety be a good foundation for the interference of
the Legislature, as I hold it is, the opinion expressed in
this House that such an Association so connected must
have a virtual representative character—that opinion
the House must think a reason why it should still more
seriously consider how to deal with it. Can an Asso-
ciation with such a character attached to it, though not
assumed, and this House, be coexistent ?—(Hear, hear)
s it possible that a House such as this is, representing
us it does the Commons of the Empire, and a House
bearing a representative character as powerful,as sacred,
and as effective as that of this House, though not con-
ferred by the same process, can continue to wrist and
perform their function* together? (Hear, hear)—
I intended to abstain from casting imputations, and I
hope I have refrained from applying any harsh words'
to the Catholics I had no disposition to do so ; but if I
bad, the information communicated by the Honourable
Baronet, would entirely have disinclined me from so
doing. That information makes no difference, however,
as to the expediency of this measure. Because the Ca-
tholics will obey the law, Parliament ought not to re-
frain from passing it. On the contrary, with this de-
termination on their part declared, it is still the duty of
Parliament to persevere. It was attempted, in the ear-
lier stages of the debate, to represent the Catholic As-
sociation as merely instrumental to bring that question
under the consideration of Parliament; and it was asked,
whether we could put down that body without cutting
off all communication between the Catholics and the
House of Commons? To that question I was prepared
to have applied myself; but after the information given
by the Honourable Baronet, it would have been so-
rcerous to press further--
& F.BURDETT said be had no information beyond what be had
-collected from the public proceedings of the Catholic Association.
Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that he bad undimmed the
Ilea. Baronet to make an outhmised conanumicatia•—(Hear).
Mr F. BURDETT said, he was only in possession of the new.-
paper account.
Mr. BROUGHAM understood it to be intention of the Catho-
Nc Association to bow with submission to the law, when it bad re-
-mired the Royal assent ; but that in the meantime, they desired to
be heard by their Counsel and their witoesses, at tole liar.
Mr. Secretary CANNING asked if he was to understand it to
be a submission coupled with some condition ?
Mr. BROUGHAM again rose, amidst loud cries of 'Larder" and
*" hear." He said that, if. the Geistletnen who cried order, would
Notes to him, they would fad that be only desired to save the time
of the Heine, and to prevent the Right Hen. Gentlemen from ping
Wee unnecessary arguments. The Anociadom bad declared that
they should make an unconditional Mondale., when the maws
became the law of the land; but, in the meantime, that they &add
take every constitudonal memo of opposing the !NIL
Mr. Secretary CANNING continued—When I was in-
ternipted by the Hpn. Baronet, I was proceeding to
mate that it would be ungenerous to press on the Cabo-
lies when the Association was suppressed. I, Sir, see
as reason in this ready submission of the Catholics for.'
suspending the Bill, but for passing it. Oa the first
;canal question, as to the necessity of this measure,
not fit, Sir, that any body should exist, holding
faith of the people confided to its keeping. Secondly,
viewing this body in its connection with the
Catholic people, and as likely to retard the pro-
. of the Catholic Question, I am of opinion that for
interest of the Catholics themselves, there should be
end put to the Catholic Association. If the Bill be
brought in and passed,suspicion may be diminished ; and
linger which now exists allayed. I, Sir, certainly
opinion, that we mast attribute to the excesses
Catholic Association the alienation sif the public
from the Catholic Question. I stated, Sir, on the
:tight of the Session, my belief on this subject. I
not then state my grounds for this belief, but it is a
I regret to say, is too well founded ; and I now
my belief, that the Catholic Question has retro.
Vided in the minds of the people of England. M)

opinion on this subject is sttetigthaned by what Vat so
Wrstated by the Right. trinnunabia Gentientett
Tierney) who concluded the debate en Friday lag, and
who then, for the first time, opened his lips upon this
question, which for many years he had zealously sup-
ported by his vote. The Right Honourable Gentleman,
with the judgment and sagacity with which he always
selects a topic which tells with this Hou-e or with the
country, prefaced his observations in support of the
Catholic causes with declaring he was by birth,education,
and pi nciple,warmly attached to the Church ofEngland.
The Learned Civilian, too, (Dr. LushinAton), had made
the same declaration, and still more strongly stated the
degree to which the Church of England it rooted in
the affections of the people of this country. This was a
sentiment deeply rooted, as I had often occasion to know
by personal communications,in the mind of Mr.Grattan.
In every Bill which he presented for the furtherance of
the Catholic claims, he studiously set fort in the pre-
amble that the English Protestant Church was inviolably
settled by the Act of Union as the Church of both coin-
tries ; and this Bill, so far from shaking the establish-
ments of this Church, was decidedly intended to
strengthen and confirm it. (Hear, hear ly The sth
Resolution, on which the Union between Great Bri-
tain and Ireland runs, is, Sir, in these words :
" That it be the sth article of Union that the Churches of
England and Ireland.as now by law established,be united
into one Protestant Episcopal Church, to be called the
United Church of England and Ireland ; and. that the
doctrine, worship, discipline, and government, of the
said United Church shall be, and shall remain in full
force for ever, as the same ate now by law e.tablished
for the Church of England ; and that the continuance
and preservation of the said United Church, as the
Established Church of England and Ireland,' shall be
deemed and taken to be an essential and fundamental
pair of the Union." It was in reference to this
article, Sir, that Mr. Grattan always introduced his
Bills into this House for the relief of the Catho-
lics. I believe, also, Sir, that in the Bill introduced
into this House by my Right Honourable Friend (Mr.
Plunkett), there was a clause in the preamble of it si-
milar to the clause in the preamble of Mr. Grattan 's
Bill, and intended to provide for the safety and invio-
lability of the Established Protestant Church. Up to
1 the period at which these Bills were discussed, the be-
lief of the people of England was, that such a protect-
ing article was a fundamental pan of that arrangement;
within these two years they have seen, certainly no
decision in this House of a contrary nature, but they
have seen questions mooted and divisions take place,
that have caused great alarm, and have resuscitated an
opposition till then almost estinct—(Cheers). On the
4th of March, 1843, the following Resolutions were
moved in this House:

" Resolved, That the property of the Church of Ireland, at pre-
sent in possession of the Bishops, the Deans, and Chapters of bog
land, is.puWic property,uoder the contrast and at the disposal of the
Vegislaturei for the support of religion, and for such other pur-
poses as l'arliament in its wisdom may deem beneficial to the eon-
malty, due attention being paid to the rights of every person DOW
enjoying any pan of that property.

" That it is expedient to inquire whether the present Church
Establishment of Ireland be not more than Cemmensurate to the
services to be performed, both as regards the number of persons
employed, and the incomes they receive ; and if so, whether a re-
duction of the same shall nut take place, with due regard to 'Aw-
ing interests ?

" That the peace and best interests of Ireland would be promoted
by a commutation of tithes, ea such primiples as should be map
sidered just and equitable towards the present peeesseor, whether
lay er cletkaL"

The question upon these resolutions was put and lost by
a majority of one hundred and five, the numbers for
them being 62, while those against them were 167
(Hear). In thus adverting to the fruits of past expe-
rience, I only mean to contend, that the inevitable con.
sequence of a departure from that rule which Mr.Grat-
tan laid down, and an adherence to which he thought a
necessary preliminary to all his motions respecting the
Catholic Question, mug be fatal to the success of any
future motion upon the subject—(Hear). The Churches
of England and Ireland are now united by law; and it
being my opinion. as it was that of Mr. Grattan—an
opinion in which I feel that I am only the organ of the
sentiments of the people of this country—that the invio-
lability of this Church Establishment ought to be pre.
served. I would, therefore, warn those Gentlemen who
deem the carrying of the question of Catholic Emancipa-
tion, the. " one thing necessary" to the salvation of the
country, that Win the preamble of any Bill which they
may introduce, they do not adhere to the same sacred re-
cognition of the inviolability of the Protestant Church, I
warn them, I repeat it, that their measure will fail.—
I trust it will not be said that because such is my opi-
nion, 1 am on that account unfriendly to the Catholic
cause—(Hear, bear). I am not unfriendly to the Ca-
tholic cause, although I must own myself decidedly
opposed to the spoliation of the Church of Ireland.—
It is not from love to the religion of the Roman Catho-
lics, it is not from respect for their absurdities and im•
positions, it is not from lukewarmness to the note:tent
ieligion, that I am friendly to Catholic Emancipation,
and think it possible to do justice to both the Catholics
and the Protestants, but I do not think it possible to
maintain the resolutions and to carry
.the question of,
Emancipating--(Hear, hear). I have now stated to
the House the reasons that induced me to form the
opinion that the question had retrograded ; and I do
not think I took up the opinion lightly. And I will
further add, that if the Catholic Association be permit-
ted to exist—if, after the language that bas been
there spoken, and after the intimidation it has held
out, it continues the organ of conveying to the
people of England such language and intimidation as
have recently marked its proceedings, it will be hopeless
to try the Catholic Question. In saying this, I am dis-
posed to regard the information which has been com-
municated to the House this evening, and the declaration
(if faithfully fulfilled) of the Catholics to respectfolly
obey the law, as a circumstance most favourable and
auspicious to their cause. By the dissolution of the
Association, one of the obstacles to which I have alluded
will be surmounted, and the unfriendly feeling—l will
not say retrogradation, which has taken place in the
minds of the people of England towards this question,
may,l trust,be gradually rentoved—(Hear, hear). There
is one argument, however, upon which great sues has
been laid, both in the course of this debate as well as
upon many former occasions, ;bat hitherto every boon
which has been granted has been conceded to the higher
orders, and that the lower classes of the Roman Catho'
lies have not only not been benefited by your forme,
measures, but that they are not solicitous for future
favours. I can neither.Sir.ailmit the fast, nor subscribe
to the inference. If you benefit one class of the R 'man
Catholics, you confer a benefit upon all ; for what effects
the higher orders communicates itself by a kinslorsYm-
pathy to the lower, although the chain which bincithesti
together may be formed of innumerable links—(lw)

I now, Sir, tut n to,/ subject upon which I must request
the indulgence of the flottse,ex it is of suck a rater's,
most compel me to occupy their attention much-longer
than I otherwise meant to do (Hear). I cannot, how-
ever. permit the insinuations which have been this night
thrown out by the Honourable Baronet (Sir F. Burdett)
insinuations of which, as far as I am personally con-
cerned, I think I have some right to complain, to pass
wholly unnoticed The Honourable Baronet has asked
how it can be expected that a Government divided upon
so important a measure as the Catholic Question can
exist ? This is riot, however, a problem of to-day. It
is one of 25 years standing ; a problem which every Go-
vernment which this country has seen during that long
period has exhibited. and without a single exception.
I ask the House, I ask the Honourable Gentlemen who
have made the charge, -tq tell me when that. Govern-
aunt existed, since the Union with. Ireland, in which
there prevailed a common sentiment with respect to
the Catholic Question ? I ask them to point out a sin-
gle month, for the last twenty-five years, in which a di-
vision of opinion on that question did not exist; and
where the objection of sitting in a divided Cabinet was
not equally as applicable to all preceding Administra-
-1 tions as to that Administration against which the accusa-
-1 don is now so repeatedly and so unfairly made? 1 defy
e Hon. Baronet to give an answer to this appeal.
At the period immediately preceding the Union, it was
.th
the principle and understanding of the then Adminis-
tration to resist every concession to the Catholics. To
that period succeeded the Administration of my Lord,
Sidmouth, with whom was associated the late Lord
Londonderry. Then came the Administration of Mr.
Pitt, in 1805. In each of those instances the Members
of the Cabinet were divided upon that question. I now
come to the Administration of Lou! Grenville and Mr.
Fox ; and it is not because I am actuated by the vulgar
motive of saying you did the samc—(A laugh)—that I.
venture to remind the Gentlemen of the opposite side,
that in that Administration also the same discordance
of sentiment prevailed upon this particular question.
(Hear, hear li Then followed the Administration of
the Duke of Portland upon the death of Mr.Epx, and upon
this occasion two persons, most hostile to the Catholic
Claims, were, one would almost imagine purposely,
sought out to create disuni.n where it might not have
existed. One of those persons was Lord Sidmouth, and
thp other was brought into the Cabinet from a place
whence, I trust in Goo, no Member of a future Cabinet
will ever again be brought—the seat of the Lord Chief
Justice of England—(Cheers). I have thus. Sir, gone
through the various Administrations from the period of
the Union to the present day, and in so doing, I as
very far from wishing to cast any opprobrium upon
the persons forming those Adaninistratioas. My object
has been to vindicate myself, and those with whom I
have the honour to act,frem the insinuations which have
been so unfairly thrown out against us—Meal. . As
ler as I am personally concerned, I can safely assert,
that my conduct, whether in or out of office, has
been invariably consistent upon the subject of the
Catholic Question—(Hear, hear, hear). I never pro.
fessed not to act with an Administration which did
not make the carrying of that measure the basis
of their Administration. All I claimed was, that
I should be perfectly free, as far as my own vote and
individual exertions were concerned ; and this chilli
being admitted, I cannot see the inconsistency of be-
coming part of a Cabinet which shall be unanimous on
every other question, although disagreeing in this. Such
was the principle laid down by Mr. Pitt. To that I have
adhered through every change of Administration. Acting
upon it in 1810, I sent out of office. A change took
place in 1812,when Mr Perceval became Prime Minister.
That, Sir, was a critical year to the Roman Catholics
and to the Empire at large. The question of the re.
strictions upon the Regency was then in agitation.—
Having made up my mind upon the Catholic Question,
I waited with anxiety until that question was decided.
When at length the restrictions were taken off, conceiv-
ing that an unrestricted Regency was tantamount to a
'new reign, I took the first opportunity of stating my.
view of the Catholic Question. The statement which I
then made was not, however, in a spirit of hostility to
the Government; for it was not until afterwards that I
learned, first from Mr. Perceval, and afterwards from
Lord Castlereagh, that the Cabinet to a man was hostile
to Catholic Claims. I then stated explicitlymy sentiments
in this House,and voted for the first time in favour of Mr.
Grattan 's Bill. I also gave notice of a motion, having for
its object the pressing of that measure through theHoise.
I had then made my declaration and took my leave.—
After the death of Mr. Perceval an offer was made me
of a place in the Cabinet. The only question I asked
was, whether the same hostility towards the Catholic
Question prevailed in the Cabinet? I was answered
that it did, and I refused office—(Cheers). Atter this
'statement, I should be glad to know, Sir, what right
any Honourable Member has to impute insincerity
to me, or to estimate my conduct and motives by the
vulgar test of my having been in or out of office?
.---(Hear, hear, hear.) If, Sir, I was a person upon
whomliii place had suck charms as to render me in-
erent to principle, what more favourable oppor-
tunity could there be for getting into office than that
which was then offered to me, and which I refused?
I bad borne my share in the obloquy of suppqrting the
Spanish war. I had seen the storm gather round me,
and supported myself through it with difficulty. At
length, in 1812, the tide turned, the political horizon
cleared up. After a long and arduous struggle we
were upon the ewe of an honourable peace; and I ask
any man who has the spirit of an English Gentian*
and the good of his country at heart, whether, under
such circumstances, it would not have been an object<
of proud and honourable ambition to be enabled to
leap the reward of that for which he had so lone
toiled ? But _when, Sir, I was informed I could not
accept office unless I formed a part of an Administra-
tion, all the Members of which were decidedly hostile
to the Catholic Question, I at once declined office.—
(Hear, hear, hear). What followed? A 9 address was
presented from that House to his Majesty, praying
that he would be plea Ted to form a new Administra-
tion. Lord Wellesley and myself were the persons
chosen for this purpose. We met accordingly. His
Lordship wrote to Lord Grey, and I went to Lord
Liverpool, in order to form a joint Administration.
What does this prove? Simply, that it was my °pi.
nion (absurd as such an opinion may be deemed) that
ran Administration might be formed ; and 1 may nes
mark also, Sir, that at this period I was not seeking a
place; I was a distributor of place to bthers--(Hear.
hear).—l say, Sir, my conduct upon this otca-ice
'roves, that it was my opinion au Administration could
• formed, which, agreeing upon. all other subjects of
oreign and domestic policy, might still disagree upon
the subject of Catholic, Emencipation,—(hear).—W hat
then becomesof the reproach, that for the sake of office

[I gave up that question? Here I was out tt candidate
'fir, but a distribetee of, office; here kat en
nisiration to f4rna, not an appooetmeat to seek. Why
do I advert to it, but because it stews that I was
prepared-then to act with my colleagues on the
very bats on which the present Administration stands.
I may have been wrong in my judgment ; it may lse asr
absurd position to take ; but, even allowing that, it 4- •
fords a full illUstration that these exists no ground for
the insinuations of a want of itttegtity, or that any mean,
sordid, or personal motive had any influence its tot ming
such an Administration. What then becomes of the
disingenuous use made of any refusal to the Ad-
ministration of 1812 ? In fact, Sir, the force of the
statement refutes ittell. My objection to the Admi-
nistration of Mr. Perceval was, that the several Mem-
bers of it were bound together by a pledge, by which
they engaged, collectively and irKtividctal.y, to op pose
Catholic konancipation ; to this pledge I would not con-
sent. This House was afterwards dissolved, and a nego-
ciation for a new Ministry went on. At the time I have
alluded to, my motion was brought forward, and she
effect of it was, to pledge the House to take into consi-
deration the Catholic claims, with a view to an adjust-
ment. Lord Castlereagh ably seconded it, end it was
carried by a clear majority of 129. At the same pe-
, Siod, the motion was brought lot ward in the of
tords by Lord Wellesley ; there it was lost, for there
'Nome 126 against it, and 125 for it, so that it IA as only lost
toy,a wino, ity of one. 1' ese were the halcyon days of the
yCatholic Question, and though I should siticetely desite
•
to see them again, I yet fear it is not likely. Oti that
basis that Cabinet stood, bailed by the most able
defenders of the cause as a most beneficent change, and
iu the course that I pursued, I feel myself justified in
,defying any man to affix to me the shadow of suspicion,
or even the slightest stain of insincerity—(Elear). lam
awa;e, from the very course which I felt it was most
necessary to pursue, that I had individually been oh-
noxious to many who profess to take a warm interest in
the success of that very cause—(Hear, hear). The rea•on
is, becausekin advocating the Catholic Question, I have
always claimed the right of doing so upon my own res-
poesibility, at my own discretion; and, above all, without
communication with the Roman Catholics thentseive,
(Hear, hear). I have made it no party question, Sir.
In advocating it nave not consulted particular interests:
I have looked to the general good of the Emil'. e
This is the doctrine which I have held both iic and out
of Parliament, whether a,Merober of the Government or
not. I have seen touch in the ploceedinos of that body,
which I wish that I had not sans They constitute a
body, to be employed in idiom service a man must b
delivered in trammels—(Hear, hear). What need or
further comment, whin we look to their conduct tit-
wards their old and faithful servant, the Earl of Do-
noughmore? In 1812 I would have given ten years
of my existence to have been two in office; not that I
cared for office itself, but on account of the then state
of the country. Yet, notwithstanding my ardent desite,
I then refused office on account of the Catholic Ques-
tion. From my earliest youth I had owe great object
of ambition beyond everything—it was a desite to se-
present the University in which I was brought up.
When I first entered into the political world, and
took the decided part in favour of the Catholic Ques-
don which I did, I was fairly warned that 1 forteited
all chance of success in my election—(Hear, hear).
It was the greatest of all the disappointments I base .
experienced in my life (and 1 have experienced not a
few)—l say, this was the greatest; it desttoyed all the
hopes I bad noutisbed for years ; but I remembered the
(pledges I had made, and I disdained to forsake them
—Continued cheers). I rejoice that the proud honour
has fallen into better hands—the hands of my Right
Hon. Friend near me (Mr. Peel) Long may he enjoy
the distinction, and may it prove a source of reciprocal
pride—(Hear, bear). Yet that disappointment I experi-
enced, and I owe it to the Catholic Question. This is
the first moment of my life, that either ie private
or in public I have made that acknowledipte
It is that a little too much that lam to be taunted and
twitted with the imputation of having joined a Cabinet
of divided opinions on this subject, merely from the de-
sire of office. Condemn my judgment, but acquit my
bonour—(Hear, hear). As to the prospects of the great
question itself, I do not expect that I shall make con-
marts of the Honourable Gentlemen opposite; still I
do most solemnly believe, that with respect tb this
question, there exists in this country, at present, opposed
to the measure, a great inert MASS of the peoples
whose feelings are only to be waked upon by repeated
decisions and Parliamentary discussions on the subject.
But then it.is imputed to me, rathet in terms of flattery.
that I possess the means of temedying tie evil. I
know not exactly whether the Honourable Gentleman
meant that I should resign office myself, or, by
forcing a division in the Cabinet, compel the dis-
sentients to retire. The latter course I disdain i I
respect the terms en which the Administration was
formed, and shall never 'violate them. For n.) self,
I am perfectly at liberty to leave office when 1
deem it proper, and to moot in the. Cabinet, or in
this House, whatever question a sense of duty in,-
poses upoeme. I reset ve to myself the tight and tl•e
exercise of an unfettered judgment. The Honourable
Member for Midhurst (Mr. John Smith) called on me
the other night in terms of much civility, conjuring me
to take the cause which he proposed, relative to bringing
this question forward, and to take that cause w nth
little delay as possible ; and asking nte, if no desite fir
fame induced me ro do it ? I trust lam not insenate
to the praises of my friends, or the good-will of an
enlightened community, for a man that could .leo
insensible to such a feeling does not deserve to held
a high official station its a free country (cheers) ; but •
as I have braved, under the sense of duty, unpopul'atity
without fear, I never shall sacrifice-either conscience or
public duty to its pursuit—(Hear, heat).—Lastdo ota-
*engem, or, to quote the finer description of the same
feeling by Dryden—
', I can enjoy her while she's kind,
But when she dances in the mind,
And dukes her wings, and will not stay,
1 puff the prostitute sway."--(ebeers.)
I would not court her at the sacrifice of principle. or
the surrender of my judgment. To the Honourable
and Learned Gentleman (Mr. Brougham), who, from
his speech on a former night, appeared to identify him-
self with the Catholic Association, I would say, as I do
anticipate that mine is a surer muse to a real popula•
rity than what his coarse indicates. I do adulate his
tavneps.l asilities, his intelli Li n -
wearied industry, but even
qualities, he may still e:
the qua: ter where he expec
me, who have had some
Stetimus tela aspen
COUttliittitimple tt>aouss er
let Clypeutu maga, quo

air P. 011.111.
collected Iron
Mr. Seem
800. Baronet
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paper moon
Mr. BRO
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be heard by t
Mr. Secret
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Mr. BRO
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of the Hour,
into 111111ftell
they should
hem* the 1
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Mr. Sec
tempted
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tress of th
e interes
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vermt my
traded in

imellectu tl p•swers, his un-
even uith such distinguilhed -
experience disappointwent in •,
pests regard. Let' him beligto
ex lie. Luce— •
rra coinu,
,:xperto eretlite. quantus
10 turbine toiqueat bowie T. •