Star.
London, England, 1809-06-09 00:00:00

THOMAS HUMPHHIES.

Mr. WHITBREAD said, he held in his hand a'Petition from
a Mr. Tho Mas Humphries. He did not vouch fur the tenth of
the allegations contained therein, though (nue the respectability
of the party he did net doubt their trink.
The petition was then read : it set forth, that the petitfoner,
Thomas Humphries, was Curate to tie Church of All Saints, in
the parish of Lawley,_ Derby. Though the Prebendary of the
living did dot receivp less thanr.4flol. or 35001. annually, yet the
stipend of the Curate did not exceed 401. per amens for the pie-
formanee of the duties; an income on which be could. siot sup-
port that rank to 'which he Was entitled by: his bdtication. • tie
therefore hoped Parliament Would Wm' case into Canada*
lion, and afford him such relief as it might appear-expedient to
them to grant. After a few words from Mrs WIII4IIIIAD.
..the petition was ordered to Ile Oaf the table. ' • • •
PRESIDENT el TIM BOARD OP COISTROWLIN Meal*
DowsiblcrsTßßET; , ••, •
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Mr. CREEVF.Y rose to call. the attention of the House tp.ffle
grant of a house in Downing-street to the President of the Boa id
of Comm) worth WWI. • He did. not think tau official residesice-
for the. President of the Board of Cancroid, frqm the circuital.
stance of his having nceasion to transact biasittess with so few per-
Wigs Meet/vary;.haft if meg wertmodessart; talrety a house might
have been granted that would Kaye answered every p,uryosea ;bat
could have been purchased at a 4tainier rate. 'lt might be said,
that it ?NU not given to him as. an. official residence, but. es .ass
augmentation of Ida gaiary, 10001. helps att inadequate. reward
far the performance of the duties cf that office: But this woeid
not satisfy him : if given as an immerse of sal4ry, it should have
been called ky its proper name ; but he confeteied Governmeng
had no right, to augment his salary ahca they pte.:aed. lie ad.:
mined that 20bc.1. was not sufficient,. After acme further obsess:'
rations, the Hon. Gentleman moved, a, a resolution—" 'I ha: it
appears to this Hetase,frotri a letter dared August t 4, 1807, that
Mr. Robert Dundee, them !President, of the.ticard of -Coattail!,
made application to the J.,srde of the Treasury for
.a 119IIie in
Downing-street, whit* in ISO mast tl.e'pnblic 90011. and that
it appears, in oisniesinenee of socb.applicat len, that' House had
heed granted to hinaLand that he had resided in it from that time."
The Hotsouraide Gentleman then said, he would move, that.
"It appears the Leeds of the l'rraeury, in making such a grant,
did nest manifest a primp retard for the interests of the public, as
this House are orispreitan Ito official residenc6 is necessary for the
. • • .
Mr. R. DIJNDAS said; that he would not argue on the grow
Viety of giving an edielatresiderree to the President of the Boaral-
of
Coo. tranifkut triers he to give an opinion ~ite.rhould crrtaisslp
At, one was as necessary for the person wi:o field that office al,
tee the• l*Pasitfef. • the- for. leg, the junior Lords Of the lief

-

eery, Da many others, to seism ofacial resi3eneee Were given.
lie then noticed the grant of a residence to the Charlet.nor of the
Exefiequer for Ireland. After some farther remarks, to chew the
kgabty of the grant, the Right Hon. Gentleman concluded by
movie g the previous question.
dr JOHN NEWPORT said, the provision for the Chancel,
`lot of the Exchequer for Jreland consisted partly in salary and,
partly in residence. At the time he was in office, the emolument
I of the Chancellor of the Exchequer for Ireland having experienced
a diminution of near five hundred pounds annually, he made an
application to the then Government for some increase of emolu-
event, in consequence of which a residence had been assigned.—
tie trusted it would appear to the House, that he had asked
nothing that was unreasonable, as he thought an income of 28001.
. per annum, was hardly a sufficient remuheration.for the person
holding that situation.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. R. Dun-
das) had stated it to be his opinion, that an official residence was
necessary for the President of the Board of controul, but he had
not favoured the House with the reasons on which that opinion
was grounded. He had not sheaved why it was necessary. The'
salary might he too small, but an increase ought not to he granted-
in the shape of a house.
' Lard H. PETTY said, when itioffice it was his intention to
keep that house lot the 'aceentinodation of the Secretary of State
for. the Horne Dapartmetit.:.
The CHANCELLOR of the IRCHEQIIER stated the house
to have been completely separated from the residence of the
Judge Advocate-General when he carne into Ace. The Noble
Lord had stated, that it w.. 3 his intention to have appropriated
that. house to the Secretary of State for the Home Department.
He thought it would have been found a very inadequate accom-
modation. He justified the disposal of the House, as if it was ad-
mitted that an increase of emolument was necessary, he could not
see the impropriety of augmenting it by the grant of a bouae,tres,
trilled the value of such an increase did not exceed the bounds 4
moderation.
Mr. TIERNEY was of opinipn, that whatever censure was to
be imputed, arose from the manner in which the Hon. Gentleman
~.had been allowed to entre on the possession of the premises
question. •
Mr. BANKES said, that great sod unnece ary public expellee
was incurred by the increase of salaries through the annexation of
ofneial resicien ties. • •
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER explained.
After which, he question being called fur, both Itcsolutions
were negatleed without a division,

•

NAVAL ASYLII4
Mr. Baynes, frtm the Royal Naval AilurnArc:tight up Papers
relating to the Government and Regillation or the said I.stablish-
',tient—Ordered to lie on the Table.

cHELt.EA lIGSPITA L.
Mr. HUSKISSON moved for the copy of a letter from the
Secretary of Chelsea Hospital to Mr. Hat r,son, as also the itie.
ports and Estimate of the Infimary in the said Hospital.—Or-
dered.

PLACES. AN) PENSIONS.
• Mr-I WHrf'BßtAri, purniant• to notice, rose to
Submit' tO the consideration of the Douse a inzther li-
mitation of the number of persons in Parliament hold-
in t. sinecures and Offices under the Crown. A Noble
1.(-)rd (the Member for had, heretofore
made the same motions. and investigation had been
made accordingly on the • snbject ; and the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman opposite had gi vest.p. generalized
report of the said offices and sinecures. &n Honour-
able and Learned Friend of his, in the course.of the
present SeSsion, hacfbrso .tirg;:d the sane prppoSition
upon the Thitd report of Financef and the Right Ho-
nourable Gentleman had met it with the declaration,
that•-cicononly,• 'lndefetident of influence, was the
thing to he regarded. •T 4
.athendment whichlte•
(Ma Whitbreaa) had then the honour to propane, he-
now thought proper to bring forward in , a specific
shape. to the effect which he 'should mention. , Be
did not •think any objection
,wrould• be urged against
it; He relied upon the Might Honourable Gentle-
Man paying some deference to the. opinion\which ob-
tained abroad respecting avowed corruption in the
House. And he would have, when next Session the
motion came forward, an opportunity of persuading
the Housealf-he coal do io,- that the Crowninflitence
• Was leek, toet'great.' 'tor. hii part, he wasbuand tie
sty, that he thought it Much stronger than it,shoutd
be, and if not checked, that it May .eventuallyyover-
: whelm the other branches of the constitution..
.An
, Honourable Gentleinan (Mr. Rose)on a former even,
ing, had from his- tables made calculations which
went the length of saying, that the influence of,the
Crown v as less' itt present thane iv had ever been...—•
' From the unobserved itiffnence'Whichlutc(Nti. Whit,
bread) was conscious then exi4ed, there certainly ep-
peared to him a necessity for** 'further reduction, in
those pensioned teats, notwithstanding they were
fewereVen than formerly they hid been. From con:
cidering the extetidecr.paerotiage arising out of the
army, navy, &c. it.was'inipoisible.not to pereeira the.;
increasing influence of the Crown.. For instance,diel
Local Militia, from 'the diSpoSal of .commissions
tiletein.miny individuals woUldbe attached tothat ,
influence, and Members of 'that House may •be in.
fhteneed through °their constituents. A Right Hon.
CA.nelerneri, on a former occasion, assumed the prat-
tide to hitfisllf, and left the theory to hcm. He should
only say, that from the time of the .Revolution to the
present day, gradnallY practical efforts had been made
by the" exclustOn'of •personzhiaclingplaces or pensions,
towards curtailing the influence Of the Crown, there-
fore, what he now prepoied was only an extension of
that practice. The theory containe4 in 'the Act of i
Settlement he should Coniider as mischievous, so far
ai it Went to exeludefromi seats in Parliament the
necessary officers oftioards of:Government ; but he
must declare, that there were admitted more than, in
his opinion, were teceiiary, 'AR the. Lords of the Ad-
Miralty he clitirtot think necessary, two of them and-
tthe Secretary were as many as would be sufficient foe
the purpoie of improving their knowledge in that de,
p';irtutent by' an intercourse With. Parliament. The,
Clerk orthe-Ordnancd it would ,be expedient to have
to the Home,: but it was not proper that the: store;
keeper' the ti'easurer, or the clerk Of the delivetieso;
-• shititabaire Zeita"theidin. Unconnected as the Board
. of CoOtrottr was with general*Parliamentarr detail,
' he did- not think it necessary to have more than the
President a Member of that House, if a Commoner.
lii ell the great official.depar_tments,..the headO.alon
were suf Eierit to holdseo
.in Parliament.Afier
*flying the utility- of the officers of .his Majesty's
hdusehold. having seats in Parhament, and asserting
that' they ''•cOuld only beintivdticed to support the
Cf6Wit4itirogative;: `thell*.uialle Gentleman ad-
`Vetted td" the statute lit veep Anne and George I.
upon-the subject Of seats heldby those who enjoyed
pensions, either for life otp•,:feinn of-years. • He disc
claimed' 'Any connection Of his present measure with
Parlianteritary Reform, and only wished to unite-the
parties who were favourable and adverse to that
measure. The Honourable Gentleman concluded, by
-moving a Resolutiottto this effect :
• • ..•Thu the House, in the course of the next Session, will.take
Into its consideration the neceisity of litn!ting the number of those
*Tsang who hold *etas in Parliament, together with emoluments
-and places under the CroWn." •
Mr. ROSE made tome observation; similar to those
Oiieh be PirPtect. 011, ~11 Arnier occasion, stating the
iittiii,4;:of; persons *AO. in consequence ofiudr laws
•

'as were adverted to, bad been disqualified. • The in.
fluence of his Majesty's Household could not be za
great in that House as was asserted, foi though is
1781, when Mr. Burke brought forwari, a measure
to the same effect, many Grooms of the Bedchamber
were allowed to retain their seats, 'yet,. at present,
there was but one holding a seat in Parluirrent.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUir.
-should shortly state his grounds for opposing the reo-
.tion. The House, in adopting the resolJtion crthe
Honourable Gentleman, vould record its
witsgt oiptx:piieini
thate zilft
nthoeurparbolpermieteymobfear
pstreoppossiendii,liaiendtottr. at which the Ho.
'that a diminution of placemen hoh.4ing.
House should be made. In this way the... House weuli
not leave thins as they found them, whir% by ne.
gativing the lion. Gentleman's motion: they. would
and yet the lien. Gentleman be at fui; libertr to
bring it forward agiin in the next Session, rithr,nt
being in any way prejudged by the rejectiln rt it at
the present moment. The Hon. Gentleman !1:n1
that the motion was peculiarly necessary at rune,
opinions hiving been expressed which had never befote
been urged, namely, that the influence of the Crown
was not wholly excluded from that House. He (Mr.
Perceval) however contended, that the existence of
some Partial influerte of the Crown in that House
was never at any time disputed. Ia the famous nio.
tion, for instance, which the Hon. Gentleman seemed
to hitt. in vier in brin;ing forward his resent.motion
--namely.; s' that the influence of the Crown had in-
treßsed; was increasing, and ought to be diminished,"
such influence was to ii certain degree recognised, else
the Motion ntould,havebeeo, not that it should be
minished, but that. it should be' atsolislutd, end lemur.
eel out of those walls. That the feeling's of the people
bore testimony to the existence of abuses, 'he deule:l.
He admitted that meetings were held, and that popu.
hi Demagogues there talked of abeses. put that
the sentiments of the people were to be colleetedhom
those meetings ovharangues, lie utterly denied. The
lion. Gentleinati,
,even if, lie should soccced in his
motion, would•not please any person but himself...4f
be should even be able to dislualify thirty' f the pet.
sons against whom his Motion was -directed, there
would be others who would exclude the other iweety.
Mr;TIERNEY said,. if 'hic Honourable Friend
would link hit Motion to a Resolution, that the
House Should in the next SessiOntif Parliament entir
into theconsiderition of the subject alluded to in his
notice, he should agree to the' motion. He e4ef-
tained every regarkfor the public opinion ; bat he
concurred in . the propriety of this resolittion„ not as
fotinclea on public opinion; but as. .arising out of the
Report As( a committee of that House. -He thought,
however, that there never was a more difficult ques-
tion. Was it Impossible, for 4tstaisci, that .aOel'soll
who had 'regred after meritorious services to the State,
on O. Pension, might nor still continue an excellent
Member of Pariiamenr? Again,as topert teeing
pen far life, he. did not' see any . cause why they
ahould, on that account, be excluded from seats •isi
that House. 4s to persons holding offism,however,
that was different
.; and if there were even fasji-pfr.
Fins holding offices which did not require ;heir per.
sonal service in that House, he thought they,,ooght
to_be excluded.' He 'did not pledge ~himself, how-
ever' as to the extent he should go ou this sohjeet,
Lord FOLKSTONE objected' to Pensioners, for
Life holding. seats in Parliament, rot because they
voted for or against Administration, but because they
hid not the same interest as the body Of the people
at' large, or had rather an interest clisting..o6m them.
If *they did not expect any thing .froA, ginietcrs,
therefore, they had their debt of grAtlp*,4p wty,
them, and did not continue with the •••-•&_.at true
And 'honest representatives ought' to. On this
ground he objected to them as much, a s to persons
'haviii7 pensions during pleasures
Lord H. PETTY, eould not consider giiersi4iietion
of offices in that House as en. efficient #tep,towards
purifying Parliament ; althoughthe general influence
of the Crown bad considerably increased, the ;au-
-ence of the Crown, by 'persons holding. laces having
seats in that House, had as ecrosidefahly..aminishe4
In 1738, 254 .Members of the House oCCOuwions
*ere piaceistry, to the amount of selit,ooo annual
'value. He readily admitted that there were some in,-
d tid
ividuals, such as the Welch fudges athe Masters
in Chancery, who ought to be excluded from the
House'of Commons ; but he allowed, at the same
time, that it was indispensible that the Ministers:of
the Crown, and all thcise who were actively engaged
in public business, should not be so excluded. .
Mr. PONSONBY felt no difficulty in agreeing to
his Hon. Friend's motion, satisfied as he was that
there were some individuals holding-cif:likes, whom it
was expedient. to excbide from the Hattie. .9f,Coto•
mons, although he As not prepared to say to whet
'precise extent this principle ought to be carried. As
to the idea of excluding all placernen, however, with'
the exception perhaps of half. a dozen, it appeared
Icihim to originate in the most complete ignorance cf
'the Constitution of the Country, and of the practise
of our Government. He did not wish to see all those
excluded wl o. held sinecure offices, the tenure. of
which in many cases rendered the holders wholly in-
dependent of the Crown. The same principle applied
to those who had'.pensions for life. I-le held pension
for life, but he did net consider himself obliged t
tho Crown for it. He held it by Act of Parliament
Arty individual who had heels. Chancellor was enti-
tled•to stiCh'a pension'' and Withreason, for he could
:not continue Chancellor if he diiagreed with the Ad-
ininistnition of the day ; and. if he leitted office it
would be impossible for him to return to his profes-
sion. Walk therefore to he said, that such an indi-
Vidttai had no common interest with the community?
:The indirect influence of the Crown had unquestion-
ably increased in.an unparalleled manner, by the in-
crease of the army, of the navy, of the patronage of
the Revenue, Otc. It was right, therefore, to try whe-
ther something could not be done at once satisfactory
to the House and to the public, and useful to the
Government itself.
Lord FOLKSTONE explained, that he did not
mean that Pensioners had no common interest with
the people, but that they had an interest separate
and apart from the interest of the people.
r. CANNING could not agree with the premises
of the Hon. Gentleman ; of course, it could net be
expected that he should agree in his conclusion. He
did not admit.that the influence of the Crown had
increased; on the contrary, he was satisfied that as to
seats in Parliamept it was greatly diminished. :The
'"le Lord(Petty) had" fully confirmed this by

shgwinj that it was so wsts one to fiie, and the Right
!lon- Uentleman too.who spoke last, though he sup-
ported the motion, overturned the principle of it.—
Nis-opinion was that persons having offices should
hold their seats and answer in their places, not that
they should be called as culprits to the bar. The
present practice experience had sheen to be a whole.
some one, and if it did not at present exist, it would
be beneficial now to introduce it. The exclusion of
persons who were receiving rewards for the services,
lie conceived, would be equally erroneous as that of
excluding officers themselves. He believed it would
be admitted that both is the other House of Parlia-
ment and in this there were at least as many persons
holding Pensions and Sinecures who voted against Mi.
nisters as for them. They, on all occasions, voted as if

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they had no advantages from the Crown. The Right
Hon.G en tleman ( Mr. Ponsonby ) had Marked so strong-
ly his own pension as coming from Parliament instead
of his Majesty, that he could not.forbear from saying,
that if any desire of making that House the sqnrce
from whence such rewards should flow lurked behind,
he should esteem it a most lavish and preposterbus
idea, and he thus early intimated his dissent from any
such proposition. The Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Whit-
bread) surely in instancing the Local Militia at an
additional source of influence in the hands of the
Crown, forgot his own identity, and that he himself
was a Colonel of that force. But what was the remedy
which he proposed for these additional 300.000 syco-
phants ? It was to be found in. the exclusion of fifty
placemen.from that House. A philosopher of told had'l
said that he could -argue against a Commander of
s r many legions. He, in talking.of the Local Mili-
litia, could not be supposed capable of. arguing with
.11 Local Militia Colonel, or of disputing the fact, that
a remedy to the evils of that system might be found
in excluding from seats in that House two Lords of
the Admiralty. He could not, however,. vote for the
motion.
• Sir FRANCIS BURDETT expressed' the partis
cnlar disadvantage under Which he rose to reply to
the Commander of so many legions as he presumed
the Right Honourable Gentleman who last addressed
tem was. For hii own pit, he admitted; that his
'knowledge of the Constitution was principally deriv-
ed from the statutes ; and so thinking, he could not
brut consider that argument as .Most extraordinary
which defended the defects in the representation of the
people, and upon the ground that there were at pre-
sent in that House many persons who, under a re-
formed system, would not be returned. What was
this but to assert that there were representat.l4es of
the people as the House was now constituted, who
-had net only a separate, but a. contrary interest to
that of the pe0p1..... ? Amongst the many evils which.
-the defective state of the national repreientation re-
-tendered,' there were none more grievoui than the Otsli,
Otlint tinder which the House frequently was to re-
ebtt to palliatives for the purpose of staying the evil,
an evil which Admitted of no palliative. Jt had been
stated by a Right Hon.and Learned Gentleman
(Mr. Ports"nby) in illustration of a principle, that he,
thottgh holding a pension in right of a late office, still
held that pension totally independent of the Crown.
Nowi he must own, that in his view, both the prin-
ciple and the practice of conferring such pensions,
were a very great and objectionable public grievant*.
It was hard that the people should be saddled with
such burdens. Within a very short period the coup.
try was called upon to pay pensions to four different
Chancellors of £5,000 a-year each. Why were per.
sons holding such offices removed on the change
of every successive Administration, thereby imped-
ing the Course of public justice at the same time
that it aggrat ated. the public pressure. In rip-
portin . the present Resolution, he still felt that it
was only palliative? capable ofproducing good as far
as it went: lie, however, would feel much regret,
if it tended to mislead the public. judgment, • or di-
verted it frintrthe only redress adequate to the evil,
namely, a Reform in the Representation of the People..
Forthat there could be no substitute, as upon a tree
And pure election, when the choice of the le to
sillect those entrusted with the disposal of people
pro-
perties and persons, the very spirit of. the Constitu-
tion, depended.—lf, however, it was to be alLinfluence
(in other words, corruption) in one branch, and all
submission on the other, then he could not consider it
but as a farce. Would any man pretend to say that
such a pure and free election existed, when it was
asserted and proved in petitions before the House,
that 157 Boroughmongers influenced returns to that
House ? He laid no stress upon any augmented in.
fluence of the Crown, but he reprobated a• system
which alternately in the name of the Crown oppressed
the people, and alternately in the name of the people
diminished the just prerogative of the ey..cutive branch
of the Constitution. He knew that the Crown was en-
titled to the Constitutional exercise of its prerogative
by the law of the land, and that it
.was necessary to en
trust to the Executive Government strong poweis
the able administration of public concerns. But it was
also a part of the Quist itution, and the very living prin.;
ciple of popular representation; tlet the People should
not be taxed without their own conient, and that their
persons should be safe under the protection of. the laws.
&cure them in those two points, and on their part there
be no attempt to encroach upon the rights of the
Cr(mi.. Where can the security be found/ Only in
a, fair and adequate representation of the people in the
Comnums' House. That was the plain and simple
Principle, certain of producing the desired effeit, and
reudering substitutes and palliatives of any sort, un-
occes,:ry.
Lord PORCHE:TER reprobated the proposition
of excluding otlicial characters from that House, as
replete with evils of serious magnitude. The Noble
Lord had determined to vote however, for the Reso-
i •
daub under the impression, that there may possibly
be a description of persons holding places and enjoy-
ing pensions, whom it would be proper to remove
from that House. .
Mr. I'ONSONBY, in explanation, stated, that the
Honourable Baronet must know that in the nature of
things it was impossible, that a Chancellor 'could re.
';-1 in otlice who differed wholly in • his political
icws from the other Membersof the, King's Govern-
meat
Colonel ELLISON protested against the libels
which he too often heard uttered against the Laws
Constitution of the Country—a. Constitution
tzder which the people enjoyed a greater partieipa-
ti,n of civil bleismgs than any other Empire in the
The Him. Baronet, he was sorry to say, saw
nothing but defermities, and is as whollz.led away by