Star.
London, England, 1823-02-13 00:00:00

THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 13 1823.

P.l HLIA 4N-2;44-1-i Y-I;IIOCEEDINGS.

.in offiCial-ralee..—lletook "Rie •officialTalue, raifier
. than the declared value, as that was meostired by
MUSE OF COMMONS. FEBRUARY 12.. ! quantity,- and from the quantity it was that they
•, I could best estimate the- employment given-by the
At a few minutes before four, the STRAW_ took the Chair.
impreved situation of the Country in a commercial
On hi; inquiring if any Members attended to be sworn, Mr.
Secretary CANNIINO and Mr. Ilksums, who are returned for 13611:- Of view; to die labouring classes. In the ex-
Harwich, rook the oaths and their seats. -. ;sorts from the .sth January, 1819, to the sth Jan..
air. ittn.all.S. SUMNER movet the issuing of aNs w Writ IsHo .en.. .
Is Ho the !., , nil export trade fell neatly 1 Loao.ooot.
for a Knight of the Shire to serve in Parliament for etc. County
of Dorset, in the room of Edward !L Po The decline in the expos is of articles which were the
Portman, Esq, deceased. I
A New Writ was alio ordered for a Burgess to serve in Par- i produce of Engiish manufacturers,. in the year pre- ,
Hameln fur the Borough of Winchester, in the room of Lucius ; ceding that la rite appointment of the Committee, to i
Coucannon, Esq. deceased. ' I-the amount of i 3 414 0001. anal in the year in which '
Mr. T. WILSON moved for a Return of the number of per- i the Committee•
s'lt,
the decline was 8,999,090/. being
snits confined in the King's Bench and other Prisons for Debt, , c„„ ,„, .
in the yens 1318,13/9, 113.20, and 1621, together with accounts 1 nearly sonnts),Qtroz. in official value. All classes were
of the nuinher committed monthly, the number discharged, the iii the greatest alarm, and. sun's!! ing tinder the most
total amount of their debts, the amount of their assets received afflicting thtpressi::n ; the merchants had no orders,
and divided among their creditors, the number of opposing ere- tad the manufacturers wanted • employ ment.--
ditors, ;10 the number of debtors finally remanded, —oi-tiered.
He well recollected, that is the speech which an
air. WI (,110'1' brought no the Itt:;sort of the Cmrnittee on
the iiinericin Colonies' Trade Acts, which was sorted to, and , Hon. Friend of his had made on presenting a Yeti-
a Bill ordered. tion from the City of London, he had entimerated
- 'l he 'isms' Annual Order was made for printing the Jnirnals their distressing ' circumstances, :apd described them of the [louse. I be so many indications of a decliiiiia.s state. Now
Dr. Pit :1.1,t MORE brcu.;ltt in a tint to amend the Act for , to
preventing Ctitideititte Nlarrirs3.—Read a first, and ordered What,Waa the siti4atiOn of tilt country ? With the
to be rca.i a second time on Friday, and tea be c.•im,fd. exeltrptioe ni one vet y great branch of industry, he
Ilr. (SOIII.III7ItN briri4:.ir in a Bill to atn...rd the law; with spokt of the agricultural classes, for whom no one
resp.st in the Yeomanry C..rps iii freland.—Read a !list, and '
could feel more than lie aid, but with that excep-
ordered :o be read a second time Lni iVednenlay neat.
T 5, 11.. Gentleman also in, :iht in a,13i11" continue, to for 'dots, he could venture to state, .that all the sources of
a limited period, the Acts fur Preventing Arr.ii front being kept i national iiidestry were In :t flourishing state. The el-
l)y improper perbons in trstand......nesaa ar,it, and ordered to t ports of the year which had just closed, not only ex•
be read a a .cond note or. Wedinisil:ty. cee4l by many mililans those of the years to which he
eoite-toe CoNIMEIICE. Ind :tilt:Jed, hat they exceeded the exportsnof the
Mr. 1".1".T.,ACE ruse, in pursuance to the notice . most flourishing year of a period of war, to which it
which lie had , b -iven to submit to the [-louse the pro- had been chstomary to look back as to that of
Piety of ieviving the Committee which had been Ithe nreatest commercial prosperity which the coun-
appointed in a former Sessiun, to consider of the try had ever keown. Many of the most material ars
means of improving. and extending the Foreign Co- ticks of out industry had greatly increased in the ex-
imerce of the Country. Ile felt it his duty to come ports. -The exports of cotton had increased ten per
forward thus early with this motion, not only on the -cent: those of hardvvaie, seventeen ; those of linen,
general ground that if the labours of the Committee twelve; and those of woollens, thirteen per cent.—
should he thought useful, sufficient time ought to be
.The aggregate increase of the exports over those of
afforded for the prosecution of the importanti nq MI ies 1320, amininted nearly to tweaty per cent. This
to which their attention would be directed, but also was a very considerable augmentation ; blit it must
on the special ground arising out of the. circum- appear still more considerable, when it was remem-
stances under which they separated at the termina- bered that, by the operation of the 1. Vr for regu-
tion of the last Session of Parliament. Many FI9- Laing the exportation of refined sugar , the exports
nourahle Gentlemen would be aware that when the of that article had been diminished no leis than ;$.6
Dock System commenced it was founded on the plan .per cent. The improvement of our experts on their
of scanting compensation to those whose interests whole amount was not less than seven per cent.
were affected by it, and particular privileges werel on what had heretofcre been their general average.
granted to those Companies for a limited time. The i These facts, be thought, furnished. not only a reason,
period for which some of these had been granted Was i but a most satisfactory and highly gratifying. Eason
now about to expire. The first of these cases which for calling on the Committee to continue or resume
had been pressed on the attention of the House .waS- •its labours. The comparison which lie had made
that of the West India Dock Company. In comm.- was the more flattering, as at the year of
elation of the privilege which had been securtd to' prosperity
- to which tie had referred, it woad be ie-
them expiring in the course of the present year) it membered that that prosperity grew out of the cit.
would be remembered tits in the last Session the ctrobtance of this being almost the only country
Company had applied by Petition-to Parliament for which, from the course the .war !red taken, was en,
a continuation of them. Since that application was,l ibleil to carry on trade with fereign nations. -At
made, other Petitions on the same subject, but of a preseat our prosperity was gained on true conover.-
conflicting nature, had been received, wirichoogether cial principles, by successful competition with friends
with the first Petition, had been-referred to the Corn- and neighbours, and l,e was persuaded that .to insure
mittee on Foreign Trade. The Committee had felt a continuance of this prosperity, nothing more was
the importance of the subject, both as it afficted in- necessa y than to persevere in that revision of our
dividuals and the country at large, and that therefore system winch had commenced, and which had fur its
thought it their duty to suspend the inquiry in which object to remove alt unnecessary restrictions on coin-
they were proceeding when these Petitions came he- inerce, and to allow of the most unrestricted freedom'
fore them, and therefore, after closing that particular in trade, as far ni.this would be compatible with the
branch of it which at that moment had occupied their interests which we were bound to protect, and thus
atteution, they immediately devoted themselves to ;he place ourselves in a situation to profit by all those
investigation of the subject of these Petitions. 'They contingent advantages which, in the present state of
pursued the inquiry with all possihie diligence till the the• world, seemed likely to open to British industry
late Session approached its terininatioin at which pe- and British enterprise. Many of the objects oris,i-
rind they had collected all, or nearly all the evidence !tally referred to the Committee, had been considered
which seemed necessary to throw light on the toes- and decided upon, and the result of their delibera-
tion. But after this was dole, front the short period Cons was already known to the House. if the mea- ;
which had to elapse before the prorogation, and. the sures svhich they had recommended, and which had
absence of many of the Committee, who were in the been adopted, had not yet been productive of great be-
habit of leaving town at that season of the year, it netit, time enough had elapsed to prove that those evils •
was felt that they were net in a situation to offer an were not likely tosprirgfrorn them which had been an-
opinion to the House which would be satislfctory to ticipated, while they were in progress through that
themselves or to the country. Wishing to afford an -House. Oar navigation laws hat been disencumbered
opportunity for their arriving at a more satisfactory of.much which had once embarrassed them, but our na-
vigaticn had not declined ireconsequence of the alter.;
conclusion than it was possible for the s to come to
at that moment, and entertaining an expectation that arion which hstdaalrea place. Ile had lately received
the Committee would be re-.appointed at the opening accounts of the Levant trade, which shetved that so i
of the present Session of Parliament, they determined tar ft orn that effect being produced which had been I
on taking the course which he had prescribed, and : expected—that so far from that trade being affected,
these labours were left in an unfinished state--; so than it could only come to us through II 'bland,
It was thus that the great question, to which it was I the contrary •
was the case, • and considerable exports i•
Isis duty to direct the attention -of the Houle, now were making from this country to the ports of Hol-
stood: Evidence had been collected, and all the ma' I land. Tiede being tins brought to sounder princi.
terials prepared for corning to a final decision on the pies than those on which it had formerly been con-
matters which had been referred to the Committee. ducted, would be likely to continue to improve.--s
It remained for. the Home to determine, whether by They had been told that, by the new law for regu-
re appointing them they should be enabled to assist . hating our navigation, the trade with Norway would
the country with, the result of their labours, which be utteily destroyed, and that of the-North American
was not less important to the interests of individuals, Colonies completely cut up by the roots. The .ac-
than it was to those of the great mercantile interests counts which he had-received with •tespeet to Nor-
of the nation. Having stated thus much, he did not way, informed him that the trade bad increased in
think it necessary for him to go at length into thei the course of the last two . years, and such had been
general grounds on which he desired that this Cons- the improvement in the situation elf the parties en-
mince should be revived. They were in fact so well gaged iii it, that many of those debts which bad• at
known that detailed explanation would be superflu- one time been thought desperate, were now likely to
ous. The course which their former proceedings had be recovered, while she North American. trade was
taken, had frequently been stated to the House...- not only uninjored, but had experienced a very cons
The effect with which they had applied themselves to siderable increase. •• The Committee,.. on looking to
gain information on particular points was made the great question respecting an. open trade to the
known, and therefore •it would be a waste of tiffs'? East Indies, had given an opinion in concurrence
for him now to detain the House long by descrip- with another Committee lehnee inquiries had been
t tion. Neither would he enter into a general expoei- difected to that. subject, that theopenlng of the trade
tints of ttse situation of the exportarade of the coon- would be highly beneficial to, d 4. British merchant.
try, foi: at this eac.y. period of the Session such en ex- lie was sorry theAdvautms-which ;the- .expreession
position could hardly be required. But in glancing of that opinion had as ye. procaired,were not so great '
at this topic, it was impossible not to led great satin- us might have Liven expected; son* however, had
faction while contemplating the very different situa- been gained. English • shps had 'been priton the
licit is which the country stood at the present mos,'earne tOoting-atsforeign steps.' Other advantages, he ',
meat, trona that in whith it stood when the Corn-' was of opinion, might , be- afforded its concurrence;
1 mittee,. for the renewal of which he was about to i with the Reports okhe two Committerra: This, how. I
move, had been originally appointed. At that time,: eser,dist not depend wholly on Pailistment-they could;
it would be in the recollectioa of . many who• heard ! not compel the concessions they might detire, for on
bins; ho' great‘was the distiessanal thettespoOdency Ino account-could diet'' think of vitrinting the faith
which
.overi an the commerce .of the country. The which had been pledged to the East-India COmpapy..:
o eaeral exports had di ri.; i.ibilral
.from the
year 1815 i They were pound •bs .n Act of Parliament
.to. coos
1 ;Ai .(I.t. }car 1819, to the ad:sr:sot of.intir:cra minions, thaw to that Compaoy - for a _limited period certaut I

:..:~:.

[pit :( k SEVEN -PlitiC v.

•
privileges,and ccim pet t icu h been made
could not b' infringed. Ad they could do war to
hope that those with %shorn it reNte..l, to consider bow
far those concessions which were sought ,night be
made without detriment to their own interest, would
give the. recommendation of the Committees their.
best and most liberal attention. The last subject of
inquiry connected with the Trude of this country, re.
lateJ to the charges heretofore imposed on foreign
ships entering cur posts, He. was glad that the re-
,.
coamiendatinn of the Committee iu that respect had
been attended to. Ln centequence of the diminished
charge, several foreign ships had pot into our per
during the late tempests; any had been sheltered from
danger. He was that it would be felt if any of
these ships had been saved by thnt circumstance, that
if but one ship which would have perished, nay, if
but one life had been saved, he was sure it would
felt that the labours of the Committee had been amply
repaid. The advantage; which he had enumerated
as consequent on the exertions of Committee were
valuable, but n t more so than the dech.rations which
.they had c died forth t)u the subject of a Free. Tratlei
and theoppirrition which it had generated to the old
restrictive systeli. Henceforth our Commerce would
be condUcted on more liberal and consistent prin.'
eiples ; on principles favourable to the general inlet.;
cow se of all nations, which could not prove miser dim*
'beneficial to ourselves. The course adopted by this
country was working. well on foreign nations. It
would induce them to consider of acting on a more
liberal system—(lfear, hear).—ln many countries‘
English ships were Alleady placed on the same footing
as native ships, and this was the principle which it
ought to be our policy to encourage, and-he doubted
.not that, before a long time should have passed
away, a complete teciprocity would be established
between England and all the countries to 'which
her navigation extended. He believed that our
commercial laws might be still further relaxed With
safety, and this he should not hesitate to recommend
to the Committee. The difficulties with which they
had had to contend were numerous and formidable(
but every step which they. nom- took would bring
them 'towards a freer and better system of trade. lie
felt Lilac the manufacturers of this country must NI
protected. No man could be more feelingly alive
than he war to their- true interests. Those interests
which. bad grown up.under the unfortunate system
which had prevailed, were entitled to protection*
But when the subject came to be discussed, he trusted
that real dangers and real injuries would alone be
looked at, and that vain alarms and groundless ap-
prehensions would not mislead them. He hoped the
House would recollect the unfounded fears and the
clamours which had prevailed on former oectisionso
and that they would firmly do their duty by the great
commercial interests of the country—interests,the
preservation of which concerned every member of the
community. ,He concluded by moving for the
pointment of a Select Committee, to consider of the
means of extending and improving the Foreign Trade
of the Country, and to report their opinions aad ob-
servations thereon from time to time to the House.
Mr. BARING expected much from the labour and
intelligence of the Consmiuee proposed to be re-ap-
pointed, and Still more from the efforts of the Right_
Hon. Gentleinau (Mr. Wallace) who had brought tor,
ward this motion. The merits of the Committee and
of the flight Hon. Gentleman were so highly apprea
dated by the merchants of London, that he could
riot help taking this opportunity of expressing his ad,
miration of their conduct. The labours of the Board
of Trade had been gre.tt,. but these had been more
than equalled by those of the Committee of the Right '
Men. Gentleman.

Mr. RICA.It happy to offer his testimony-
in approbatiA of the Committee, and of the conduct
of the Right Hon. Gentleman in that Committee.—
Had that Right lion. Gentleman been enabled to
carry all his plans into effect, it would have been
better for the ;rade of the country. He had been
prevented from doing this by particular obstaeleso
but he (Mr. Ricardo) hoped the Right Hon. Gentle*
man would persevere, and finally overcome the diffis
culties which at present stood in his way. Ile was
of opinion with the Atight Hon. GenCeman, that these
interests, .which .would be materially affected by a
change of system, ought to be tenderly dealt with ;
•htit, at the same time, they ought not to be allowed
to stand in the way a the projected improvement,—
When a bridge was to be built, many persons wear
interested in opposing its erection. Individuals who
mined boats, or were otherwise employed Bons the
absence of a bridge, would naturally be opposed to
a project for making one. But because such)nterests
would be affected, was that a reason why, in a great
and populous country, such an improvement should
not be proceeded with? In such cases it was better
to grant a compensation to the sr.Terers-than to give
up the plan ; .aud so in those cases which might
shortly come under the consideration of Parliament.
and which would be entitled to their best rontions
it might be wiser to allow compensation to the-sufa
firers than to ,cramp. on their account, the Commerce
*of the country. -Ile had head, with mach satisfac.
tion, the statement made with respect to the increasing
exports. The Right .Hon. Geode/Gan had. hardly
done justice to the, improvement which had. taken
place in oursituation. He had said that the exports
of the present year had exceeded those Of the year of
our greatest prosperity. doringrtheirsar. Bpt-it was
to be remembered that, at that.times;be tour try had
'to sustain a large foreigq,.expsmditore, and mail)r
commodities were sent cisit rifthe country to pay tl.e
expenses incurred abroad. ;This accounted ?ht. 'the
extent of our exports than, suck-AVM at present
no longer the casp,.and now no m..enthandise:lefc" the
country which was not expected to prpdoca
able retutn. It was s.atisfactory, amidst the 'usisfor.
tunes complained of by the agricultural body,ashicla
. no man could lament more sincerely than he:4d, that
vev,cpuid thus turn for aoncolation.tothe flourishing
I AA. snir commerce..
I Mr. LUTTEAWORT/d- begged, UM* *Mkt his,
- .

r ' a: r.

• !;'

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testimony of respect to thaise which had already beer
paid to the Right honourable Gentleman, and to re-n
turn him thanks for the great attention which had
always been paid to. any suggestions which he had
occasion to make on behalf of. the merchants and
tradesmen of Dover. " . . ~!•
Mr. T. WILSON said, that though there thightbd
-smite differences of opinioo• among the merchants of
the city of Lon ion, as .to the improvements stig-
. gested by the Right Honourable Gentleman,. theta
was no difference of opinion as tains merits; .and hd,
had good reason to believe, that in a very short tiniet
they intended to communicate to hint in a publici,
manner the very high value which they set upon his
public exertions.
Mr. HUME rose merely to express his deep regret
that the country was likely to lose the services of the
Right honourable Gentleman (Mr. Wallace) who foe
the last two or three years had devoted his attention
so be;teficially to the Public. If Ministers had had
the interest of the nation as much at heart as makitig
a .provision for their friends, they would have con-
trived in some way to have secured the assistance of
the Vice-President of the Board of Trade. It had
most.tortunately of late become the general opinion
that the interest of the State was involved in thirin-
terests of individuals, and the labours of the Right
honourable Gentleman had been applied to carry thii
principle into effect. It was therefore most deeply to
be liiiirented that he was compelled by circumstances
to retire from his situation.
Wir. CANNING cordially agreed in what had just
fallTn . from the Honourable Member for Aberdeen:
be regretted as much as any man that any circum-
stances had occurred to induce his Right Honourable
Friend. (Mr. Wallace). to withdraw his aid from his
Maje Sty's Government, What those circumstances
were, was not, perhaps, a fit subject for discussion:
he could only say, that.there was no member of Ad-
ministration who did not join with him in apprecia-
ting most highly the talents and utility of the coad-
jutor they were about to lose: all felt towards him the
same degree of cotdiality which he expressed. Al-
though feelings of delicacy and some private matters
might induce his Right Honourable Friend to relin-
quish the situation he now held, 110 effort should be
left untried on the part of the King's Government to
replace him in an office equal to his high abilities
and eminent services—(Hear, hear).
The question was then put, and the Committee
was re-appointed.
CHIEF BARON O'GRADY.
Mr. SPRING RICE rose to call the attention of
the House to a subject of peculiar delicacy and im-
portance, but in doing so he would only occupy a
few minutes. Without now entering into the merits
of the case, he was anxious to state specifically the'
present condition of the question, and to ask Minis-
ters what course they intended to pursue? The Com-
missioners, appointed in 1814 to inquire into the con-
sleet of Ministers and Officers of Courts of Justice in
Ireland, had made .various reports; they had done
their duty honestly and earnestly, and had accom-
plished a great public benefit. The particular re-
port affecting the question now before the House was
presented in April, 1821 ; and it was soon afterwards
returned to the Lord Chief Baron of Ireland, as it
included charges against him of the gravest import-
anCe : the imputation was no less than this—that as
a Judge he had been guilty of extortion upon the
suitors of the Court, by taking from them in the
shape of fees that which was not due, more than was
due, or, what was not due at the time it was taken.
In June, 1821, he (Mr. S. Rice) had moved a series
of Resolutions founded upon the Report, but they
were suspended at the request of. the Marquis of
Londonderry, who subsequently moved for a Select
Committee, which made a report that the justifica-
tion.of the Chief Baron upon certain parts of the
charges was not satisfactory, and that upon others
further information was necessary. The Noble Mar-
quis was understood to have pledged himself that the
matter should be referred to the competent authori-
ties in Ireland, and in May, 1822, it was sent back
to the Commissioners of Inquiry. Their Report upon
the charges was again transmitted to the Chief Baron,
and in reply that Learned Lord had transmitted a
letter, which was upon the table of the House. Thus,
then, the question now stood : a charge had been
made, the Learned Lord had pleaded not guilty, and
had put in a justification, and the two parties were
at issue. •41though he (Mr. Rice) at. the end of last
Session had given notice that he would bring the
subject under discussion in the present,.yet in a mat-
ter of this delicacy and magnitude, he held that it
was the duty of the Government not to stand by as
neutral, but either so protect the character of the
sledge, if . falsely accused, or the administration of
justice, if improperly discharged. A decided. opinion,
and in his view decided conduct, was required on the
part of the servants of the trown ; and he trusted
that the Irish Government on this occasion would
disehargeits,duty. He hid the more reason to sup-
pose that it would, because with regard to the inferior
14agistracy, it-bad recently exercised a most whole-
settle authority (though perhaps more valuable. for
the admissioa of the principle than for the manner in
which it had been carried into effect); and whilst it
stewed this spirit of reform among the minor • of-
fenders, it could not allow the greater and more
)heinous • to. escape. The Commission had cost the
eeetetry_nearly £lOO,OOO, and it was yet to be seen
wW,her the money had been spent in vain. For his
a► p. part, he (Mr. Rice) was willing to redeem his
pledge, and proceed. with the accusation ; but he
called upon Government_ to do its flow, and to take
so serious a subject out of his hands. Lie hlaved for
copies of all correspondence shim last. Session ujuin
the 9th and 11th Report of thetommissioners of In.
squisy regarding the charges against Baron O'Grady.
Mr. GOULBURN was .confident that the. Roil.
Member must anticipate the reply he should give to
.the inquiry contained. in what had been just stated,
and he trusted that the. house would concur in the
propriety of the.courseGoternment thought itself
called uponto pursue. True it was that the Marquis
a Londonderry occasioned a further inquiry into a
part ef. the case ; but it did not follow from thence
that it was the duty of Ministers to proceed. with the
other parts ofits. ,The Committee bad been. appointed
to obtain further information for the general satisfac-
tion of the House ; and it seemed 'to him (Mr. Goul-
butu) that fur Government to take up the charge
under the particular and especial circumstances,
would be a great injustice to the individual incul.

•
gated; and a rdts violation of an important pnbliel'
principle. He save rth analogy between the cases o 4
thirinferior Magistracy and that of a Judge. In the,
first case, it was the undisputed right-of the Crowif
Ito appoint dottiemove-; but a high judicial ollicer4
though nansestty the Crosson,- was not removable by
stood' Vile-4,01V ikdiferent footing. For
misters to proceed in theacciosation, would, in his
opinion] be to make this solemn question a party
matter, and would be highly prejudicial to the in-
terests of justice. He did not say that cases might
not occur in which the Government would be called
upon to interpose, but be contended that the present
was not one of them. It bad been begun by the
Hon. Member for Limerick (Mr. Rice), he had per-
seveied in it through several Sessions, and he had
this night followed it up by moving for additional do-
cuments. The charge could not be in better hands.
Mr. ABERCROM BY, after referring to what had
formerly fallen from him upon this subject, contended
that the Marquis of Londonderry, by the proceeding
he had recommended, and by the Committee he had
appointed, had, in point of fact, adopted this accusa-
tion. There was no duty more important than for a
Government to watch over the due administration of
justice,. by which the interests of the People were so
especially guarded. He also objected to this being
its.ide a partyquestion ; but the way to render it so,
was to leave it in the hands of an individual Member,
-and to direct againit him all the Influence of Mi-
nisters. This charge had for several years been de-
pending against the Chief Baron, during which time
he had gone the circuit, and had tried criminals,
when perhaps he himself ought to have been put
upon his trial. If Government did not proceed, in
his opinion they would be guilty of an abandonment
of their duty. If the lion. Member for Limerick
would take his advice, he would recommend him to
drop the subject, in order to see if Ministers_ would
venture to remain passive spectators.
Mr. PEEL observed, that the real 'question was,l
whether Government ought to 'take the case nut of
the hands of the Hon. Member' for Limerick, who
had commenced the proceeding in 1821-?. Was these
any reason why he should relieve himself, and throw
the burden upon the shoulders of others? Ministers,
must, of course, be at all times anxious to facilitate
these proceeding; and had done their utmost to carry
the reforms recommended by the Commissioners into
effect. They were by no Meant desirous of shrink-
ing from their duty ; but because the -Marquis of
Londonderry wished to Obtain further information,
it was not to be inferred that he meant to undertake
the proseeption. He was then, like others, only act-
ing in his judicial capacity as a Member of Parlia-
ment. He (Mr. Peel) declared most solemnly, that
he thought the ends .of justice would be best pro-
moted by leaving the calein the hands oflthe Hon.
,Gentleman who had originally undertaken it. He;
and other Members of the Government were desirous
of the most patient and impartial attention to what.
ever the Hon. Gentleman might bring forward. .-
Mr. C. GRANT by no means agreed, that in,
moving for a Committee, the late Marquis of Lon-
donderry had pledged Government to prosecute the
complaint: He thought, however, that the best
course which could be taken at present, would be to,
refer the whole matter to a Committee anew.
Mr. WYNN, at some length, went through the
Carious steps which had been taken in the transac,
don. If the charge had been against any Officer pf
the English Government, the obvious course would
have been for the House of Commons at once to have
called witnesses to the matters in question. As those
persons, however, who must of necessity, be made
witnesses were chiefly persons filling official stations
in Ireland, from the duties of which they could ill be
spared, it had been deemed advisable rather to take
evidence by a Commission, than to receive it directly
at the Bar of Parliament. But that evidence being
now in due form before the House, it appeared to
him that the case stood exactly where the Hon. Gen-
tleman opposite (Mr. S. Rice) had left it, when he
first brought forward the charges. The House had
heard the charges from the Hon. Gentleman; it was
in possession of the evidence in support of them,
through the medium of the Commission : then let the
Hon. Gentleman, upon that evidence, proceed at
once to call for a decision of the case. The course
of the Hon. Gentleman appeared to him (Mr. Wynn)
perfectly plain. No doubt the case was one which
demanded full investigatiqp; but he thought it better
that the Hon. Gentleman should pursue it, and that
Government should take it up.
Mr. S. RICE briefly replied, and maintained that
he had always treated this case as one which-ought,
to be taken up by the Government —lt was then or-
dered that the Correspondence should be presented.
CLERGY Of SCOTLAND.
Mr. HUME, in bringing forward his motion upon,
this sobject, promised that he should be brief, because
he anticipated no opposition. As various matters cep-
netted the Church would probably come under
discussion in the present Session, he wished to put
before the House an account of the state of the Clergy
in Scotland. The motion which he now brought for-
ward was for a Return of the Stipends received by
the Scottish Clergy ; and he bad worded it, .he be-
lieved, in such a manner that the information would
be attained with little trouble or personal. inconveni-
ence : he meant that the Clergy, who were about 940
in number, should be divided (qua stipend) into four
classes, the maximum and missinsum of each class being
given ; and by this means a tolerablraccurate notion
of each individual's income might be obtained, with-
Out the embarrassment of extended detail, or the.
lacrifice of personal feeling. He understood that in
the year 1750, an account of the salaries of the Scot-.
fish Clergy had been taken. He wished to see that
account; in order that he might compare the salaries
'of 1750• with those paid durinalle last three years.'
He believed it would be found that there was eery,
little difference in their amount. If -any objection
was to be made to the present motion, he would state
the grounds on which he called for the &num
question ; if no opposition was tb be made, it was
Ineedless that he should consume the time of the House.,
Mr. Hume then moved that there should be laid upon
the table-4st, a Return of the number of Pasishes in'
Scotland, of the number of Churches. in each, and oF
thenumber of 'Clergymen ; by which it would apiteari
he said, that the Scottish Clergy were resident, us op-
position to the course pursued by their brethren 91
England ; for a Return of the annual value, in
money, of the Stipends of the Clergy of Scotland

. 4,1 g, • 7.7 •
. .
during the lastlthrec•Tears, esoinswe a!stb,e,,rome,
the of 'anal the glebe* Sallyisfor_*, same' I*m
according to an account takeu,in.theyear.4... •
Mr. PEEL hid his .419nbielyinther. aietitint
called for by the Licmoura4le,cairtlemitti,could. 'be
made out without application so each -particular
Clergyman—a measure svhichil?esifles liaimpetha.ps
unpleasant to the parties. woul4 ,be attended at. least
with considerable labour. HO:wished that the HO-
nourable Gentleman woUlde at all imams, withdraw
his motion until the possibility of-complying with it
shonld.be ascertained. ••• ' •
Mr.+IUME was surprlsed, that any. Gentleman in
the Right Honourable Secretary% situation should
be ignorant that there was an Office in Scotland called
the Teind Office, which was in possession of the in-
come of every Clergyman in the country. Even if
there were a necessity of sending round to every pa-
rish, he did not see why that necessity should form
any bar to his potion: No such necessity, however,
did exist. For the last fifty years applications for
augmentation had been constant, and whenever such
had been the case, the income of the applicant would
stand registered. The only difficulty, and that was
• trifling, would be, that as part of the emoluments of
the Clergy had sometimes been paid in grain, it
might be necessary to have the parish liars to ascer-
tain the alterations in value of that article. •

Mr. PEEL Was surprised that, after Making *
motion quite different from his notice gively:the lion.
Gentleman (Mr. Hume) should charge him with ig-
norance of the duties of his office—( Hear, hear).—
He had merely proposed to the lion. Gentleman to
suspend his motion for a few days, until the practica-
bility of complying with it could be ascertained ;
and the Hon. Gentleman, on the strength of a pri-
vate reference to un office with which he (Mr. Peel)
was not in communication, came forward to charge
him with ignorance. He repeated that the Hon.
Gentleman's motion differed entirely from the notice
which he had given.-.(Hear).
Mr. HUME hoped that the notice would be read
(4, Hear!" from the Opposition).
:The notice was then read—For a Return of Sti-
pends of the Clergy of Scotland in the years 1750 and
1022—(" Hear from the Opposition).
Mr.PEEL doubted whether any return for the year
1750 was in existence.
Sir GEORGE CLERK wished • the Honourable
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) to give some time
for inquiry. With respect to the values of the livings
inAe year 1822, it was not quite clear in what man-
ner they were to be obtained. Where augmenta-
tions had been given, the fact might be upon record;
but there might be considerable difficulty where such
had not been the case. The. Honourable Member sat
down by supporting the declaration. of Mr. Peel, that
Mr..Huine had brought forward; a motion entirely
different from bis notice. ;
. Mr. HUME said that his motion was the same in.
effect as hismotice, but that in the-notice he had not
'thought *it necessary. to-give the details. J-k could
"have no objection to-postpone the motion :for ten days
or twenty days. He would wait the.plestiure of-the
Honourable Vpotlemen opposiqi until it was con-
venient to them for' him to bring it font/ad. Hi
wished, howyOr, that -it might be entered upon with-
out unnecessary delay, as the pitieeedings arising Out.
of it would occupy. time.