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to lively obligatory upon their consciences and con-1
duct. The regulations, which have for their object
snore immediately the interests and security of the
Protestant Church, an object which none, If am
happy to say, are indifferent to, who have taken part
in this discussion, it seems to me would with more
propriety.become the first and preliminary measure,
instead of being left as a matter of subsequent ar-
* rangement—(Hear, hear.) I am of opinion that it
would have been more natural to begin with this ma-
terial feature of the question, rather than postpone it
till a period, when, from the probable operation of
other causes, all hope of final and successful adjust-
ment will have vanished for ever. But I cannot close
inyeyes to another consequence of the Right Ho-
limitable Gentleman's proceeding. The effect of pro-
tlucing the Bill and suffering it to lie over till the
Swat Session, will be, I fear, to raise high expec-
;_ations among the Catholics, and to spread dissntis-
faction and alarm through the Church of England.'
(Hear, hear.) There is a principle which has
been powerfully presied, to which I cannot assent,
because I regard it as a false and mischievous prin.
tiple of policy ; it is that you ought to give power
to those who ate hostilely disposed towards you,
id order to abate their hostilities. But do I there-
' fore infer that matters ought to remain just as they
new stand ? certainly not ; never have 1 entertained
or expressed such a sentiment. The views, however,
in which I have indulged are, I trust; strict, definite,
and guarded. They are, I believe, congenial to the .
character of the people of the country, who, although
slow and Cautious, are ready to listen to every measure
of improvement, however averse to wholesale pro-
(!cts and indefinite innovation.. I am far from being
an enemy to concession, I think there are many things
that may be safely and wisely conceded. I would in
particular give, and with a liberal hand, the honours
and distinctions of the military profession. All ranks ,
in the army should, in my judgment, be laid open to
merit and ambition without any reference to religious
opinions.' I would willingly repeal the words in the
Act of 1793, which exclude Catholics from becoming
generals of Staff. When I except the very highest
military offices, I allude now to the situation of Corn-
:minder in Chief of England, Scotland, and in Ire-
land, it is only because to that situation there noes.
gorily belongs a great degree of political power. .1
would open all the avenues likewise to the dtstinctien
the Bar, because I would have the Catholics ran
the race of honour, although I cannot acknowledge
the expediency of putting power into their hands.—
These are concessions which the country at large
would cheerfully yield, and which are sanctioned, as
I conceive, by principles of the soundest policy. Much
too may yet be done on the score of toleration ; the
Catholic soldier should not be excluded by military
regulations from the exercise of his own religious
worship, nor the English Catholic be compelled to at-
tend Protestant Churches, or suffer penalties far per-
forming mass. These are, however, evidently rather
illustrations of the view I entertain upon the subject
Of qualified concession, than detailed statements of
all the points to which that view la applicable. But
there is one other most important consideration to
which I feel it my duty to refer, and state my opinion
explicitly—it is the question which relates to the re-
gulation of the Catholic hierarchy in Ireland. (Hear.)
To me that foreign influence and foreign intercourse
which have been _supposed by many, and admitted
by my Noble Friend (Lord Castlereagh) t, i essen-
tial to any future arrangement, are causes of very
serious apprehension. The head of that Hiei archy
is now in the hands of our mortal foe, and Bona-
parte
has lately evinced his sense of the important
advantages derivable from Papal influence.— (Hear,
hear.)—Do we not know that that influence has ob- I
truded foreigners into Catholic Bishoprics in Ireland, I
and that General Humbett found, on his landing, the '
brother of a French General in possession of an Irish
See ? Surely it is then incumbent on the Catholics
to offer the same securities, and submit to the same
controul, which have been exacted and exercised by
every other Protestant State that has admitted Ca.l
tholics to the enjoyment of eqyal privileges. If they t
will not make the offer, or yield the same securities,
the game is their own—no blame can attach to Par-'
iiament ; and the statute of Elizabeth, modified and '
rendered applicable to the present time and to ex-
isting circumstances, should be enforced. When I ,
refuse political power to the Catholics, it is because I
cannot reconcile it to the security of the Protestant
establishment. The Catholics continue to maintain
the spiritual supremacy of the Pope; and although I
history will inform us that this doconne is not an es-
sential principle of Catholicism, yet where it is so
considered, the necessity which it imposes on States
to guard against its exercise, has been always ob-
vious and undisputed. I may quote on this head the
language of no less an authority than Lord Claren-
don,who, afttit a long and unwearied investigation
of this subject, pronounced the result of his inquiries
and reflections to be, that any allegiance paid to an.
other power, spiritual or temporal, is taking from
that which is due to the State; and that to assert the
latter not to be diminished, is perfectly illusory, and
little better than a species of legerdemain. I would
address the Catholics in the words of the inhabitants
in the North of Ireland—lf you cannot give up what
you call your Faith, neither can we surrender our
Constitution.—(Hear.)—The Committee must, how-
ever, take co'gnizance of the prayer of the Petitions
on the table. That prayer appears to me to have
been too imperiously urged, and to have been ex-
pressed in language too lofty for the occasion. If
England should comply with that prayer without
qualification or reserve, she will be England no longer.
should all religious distinctions be laid prostrate, our
political pre-eminence will not long survive. Such,
however, must be the effect attending the chimerical
project of what is called universal religious liberty,
it it is to be pursued at the expellee of civil expedi-
ency, and to the manifest peril of all our establish-
ments. I am sorry' to have occupied so much of the
attention of the House ; but I was anxious to state on
what grounds I could not give my assent to a mea-
sure of so general and sweeping a nature, and so sub-1
versive in its tendency of the firmest bulwarks that I
surround the Constitution.—(Loud cheering.)
Mr. PONSONBY expressed the very great re-
spect which he felt for the last Speaker; but he was
nevertheless of opinion that he had entirely misunder.
stood the object and measure of his Right Honour-
able Friend. The principle embraced in that mea-
-1 sore coupled security with concession, and made
il.cm golaud is bud cogettur, if die details were

•
! net nit term.; the Committee, it was beemist the pe-
riod had not yet arrived. He was at a loss tee know
what plan had been abandoned ; he had nester heard
of that which aimed at unlimited concession. That
which comprised securities would be soon under con-
sideration ; and the Noble Lord's (Castlereagh's)
plan he was, of course, most qualified to vindicate
and explain. The House had just heard from great
authority of the danger of communicating political
power to the Catholics; but this had been already
done. when theelective franchise was given. This
danger, if it existed, was incurred. The Right Hon.
Gentleman was profuse of honourable distinctions,
and he wished these opinions of the Right Honour-
able Gentleman had been known some years ago;
because the University of which the Right Ho-
nottrable Gentleman was so worthy an ornament
and representative, would probably not have lent it-
self to the cry raised against the Government for at-
tempting to carry a measure, the object of which
was to admit Catholic Officers to the rank of Gene-
ral—(Hear, hear.) But could men be permitted to
attain and enjoy the honours of the Bar and of the
military profession, without becoming more impa-
tient and more able to obtain political power ? The
opinion of Lord Clarendon had been quoted ; but
who constituted him a judge of Catholic tenets, or
made his *authority on the subject of more weight
than the oath and declaration of the Catholics them-
selves ? It was said, that the securities ought to pre-
cede the concession ; and the first security required
by the Right Hon. entleman was, that the spiritual
supremacy of the Pope should be renounced. What
was this but to insult the Catholics, by telling them,
we will tolerate your religion, provided you will aban-
don it, and admit you, although Catholics, to equal
privileges, if you will but cease to be so? It would
be more politic and manly at once to use an pndis-
guised language, and not to shelter under these equi-
vocal terms the real intention of, resisting'their claims
for ever. His Right Hon. Friend's plan invited dis-
cussion—it courted improvement and modification,
and could not therefore deserve the strictures which
had been passed upon it.
Sir JOHN COX HIPPESLEY was always of
opinion that the spiritual authority of the Pope was
to be guarded against. The question, in his opinion,
should have been first referred to a Select Commit-
tee. There were not any documents upon the subject
before the House, and the statement of the penal
laws, lately published in Ireland, he considered inac-
curate. In that publication, he lamented that there
was too much comment ur,,a the text. The power
of the Pope was now suojsxt to controul in every
Roman Catholic country, and he saw no reason why
it should not be so in Ireland. Domestic nomination
he thought a wholesome arrangement. This had
been common all through Germany, but the right
had been wrested from the Chapter by the Pope.—
He refuted the assertion that a Catholic did not con-
ceive himself bound to fulfil his eamerat:ats wit:.
Hejetics by an oath. riieir tcuets were not hostilk:
to a Protestant GoV,rninent. By oath they were
bound to reveal any traitorous deloins that nii,th.
come to their knowledge. A Catnalic, how. vet,
would not reveal what was disclosed in conf4.inn,
he would die first. 1 hat which was disclosed in coo:
fessinn he could only reveal if 11:s Life would be
endangered by conceding it. lie oitr.l these facts
to be understood, that the Catho.-c ulight have the
benefit of a proper explanation of ;Fly new oath
which he might be required to take, AS to whether or
not it extended to confession. lit the oath of the
33d of George 111. the Catholic disc:aimed, 110.
lemnly abjured any intention ti sativert the Esta-
blished Church, and swore nit to do any thing to
disturb or weaken the Protestant re igion. It might
be said, that to preach the Catholic religion w.r% to
weaken the Prote taut litit want he under-
stood them to swear was, that thi would not endea-
vour to weaken by disturbing the Protestant religion.
He (Sir J. C. Hippesley) had an intention of moving
for the appointment of at Select Committee to en-
quire into the nature of the tenets of the Roman Ca-
tholic religion, and he should then propose an Ad-
dress to the Prince Regent, praying him to permit
the Committee to have recourse to a register in his
possession, containing entries of the appointments of
Roman Catholic Bisnops since the Revolution. Pre-
judices had hitherto opposed the claims of the Catho-
lics. He hoped these would operate against them
no longer, and that they would meet with a calm and
full investigation. He heartily ciaicuried with the
motion as tar as it went, but he should certainly take
an opportunity of again offering himself to the notice
of the Committee, in order to submit to them a pro-
position, the ad,ption of wh'olt he conceived would
be beneficial to the cause.

Mr. BATHURST objected to the mode of pro-
ceeding resorted to on this occasion, by the Right
Hon. Gentleman, (Mr. Grattan). Nothing had
been stated to the Committee which had not previ-
ously been stated to the House, to induce them to
take a more enlarged view of the subject. If conci-
liation and regulations were they objects to be held in
view, when concessions were proposed, the regula-
tions which were to accompany them, ought to be
described. Nothing of this had been done ; no inti-
mation had been given of the ;beans to be reverted to,
to secure the Church which they were about to relieve '
from the interference of the See of Rome. Before
they went further, they ought to pause to see what
effect that which they had already done produced—
what of satisfaction on the part of the Protestants,
what of gratitude on that of the Catholics. Nothing
of concession ought to be granted, which did not go
hand in hand with the securities required. Under all
circumstances, hc. thought the Committee would not
do its duty to itself, if it did not negative the propo-
sition of the Right Hon. Gentleman, in the hope
that one less exceptionable wouli be proposed.
Sir JOHN COX HIPPESLEY explained.
Sir JOHN NEWPORT, adverting to the hostile
spirit which in the course of the debate had been im-
puted to the Catholics, said he was happy to be able
to shew, that the first conciliatory measure adopted
by the House had been viewed by them in a spirit
and temper quite the reverse of that by which they
were supposed to be actuated. At a meeting of the
Catholic Board, which had taken place in Dublin
since the late vote for a Committee, a resolution,
such as could not fail to be grad' ying- to the House,
had been moved, and that by a person who had been
heretofore arraigned fcr the violence of his conduct
in that assembly. The Right Honourable Baronet
heft proceeded is read the following Resolutions.

which having Been Moved by a .Mr. Lawless, at
a meeting of the Catholic Board, Majrit Bryan
in the Chair, was thianimously agreed to Re-
solved, That we heartily eanqritulate out fellow.
subjects, of every religions persuasion, in the Bri.
tish Empire, oft the late glorious and sdccessful
struggle of the friends of civil and religious liberty
in the Imperial House of Commons ; from which we
may confidently date the commencement of that har-
mony which is likely to subsist hereafter, among men
of all denominations and religions in the ceuatry,
which must obliterate the remembrance of past inju-
ries, and make Ireland as united as she will be uneon:
querable."—(Loud cries of thar.)—Such, the Right
Hon. Baronet continued, was the temper with which
this first symptom of a dispositionto concession in the
Legislature had been met. (Hear, hear.) Now, with
respect to the qualified concession on which petsons
opposing the claims of the Catholics had now taken
their stand, lie would beg to offer a few remarks.
A Right Hon. Member opposite had proposed to give
them rank at the Bar and in the Army, while he
withheld political power. Now he would ask that
Right Hon. Membet what course he would adopt
in the event of the Catholic, in consequence of the in-
dulgence to which he had expressed himself favour-
able, obliging the country one day or another to owe
its honour and safety to the victories of a Catholic, as
it now did to those of a Protestant Well.ngton ? Would
he raise this Catholic Wellington to the honours of the
Peerage, and if he would, by what device, would he
contrive so to fetter the dignity as to keep it tho-
roughly separated from political power ? (Hear.)
The fact was, that the Anti-Catholic advocates were
evermore entangling themselves, in consequence of
the badness of their cause, in difficulties from which
they found it impossible to extricate themselves.—
There was one who, far from all intricacy, and in
which there was no danger; that was, to extend the
privileges of the Constitution in all their plenitude
to all classes of his Majesty's subjects, (Hear, hear,)
and thus unite them all in its defence—to give over
all reference to the dogmas maintained by this sect
or by that—and to forbear imputing to any sect or
class of Christians whatsoever that spirit by which
its adherents had been actuated at former periods.
(Hear, hear.) He did net wish to trespass on the
time of the Housc.—(Cries of Hear, hear, hear.)-
-He had. only risen to read in evidence a document
which repelled the charges made against the Irish
Catholics. They were a grateful and a loyal people;
their loyalty had remained unshaken during a period
of unexampled privation : he now alluded to that
which they had evinced towards the Stuart family,
and which, though it was misplaced,. gave ample evi-
dence that the principle was strong and lively in their
bosoms. Oar statute books attested its existence, and
to these we should look, and not permit the charges
of Bishops to their Clergy either to obliterate the re-
cords On which it lived or to interrupt its just reward.
A Right Hon. Gentleman, continued the Right Ho-
nourable Baronet, has said, that this is the time when
Parliament should make a stand in defence of the
Constitution. Sir, there never was a time when such
a stand was more inexpedient or unnecessary. The
Hon. Baronet then contended that the Catholics were
fully entitled to complete participation of privileges,
because if they deemed- a violation of conscience of
little moment,.they mig:a have all they seek for with-
out its being in the least necessary to ask the permis-
sion of the Legislature to enjoy it.
Lord DESART could not but express his concur-
rence in the proposition before the Committee, for,
connected with Ireland as he was, he could not be a
stranger to the advantages which Must result from
conciliating the Caholics of that country. He was
willing tq grant to the Catholic much of what was
required, but we must have securities for the Pro-
testant Establishment. He was ready to admit, that
the best bond and security of the Constitution were to
be found in its own intrinsic merits and advantages,
and that such security was rendered more secure by
extending those advantages; but charges ought to
be made with a cautious hand. He, however, could
not but think, that it would have been the best preli-
minary proceeding to appoint a Committee to inquire
into, and to report on, .ill the laws affecting the Ca-
tholics, it such a course was practicable.
Lord MILTON was anxious to say a few words,
because he might not agree in all the views of those
with whom he should most probably vote on the
question now before the Committee. He could not
but premise, that; in his opinion, his Right Hon.
Friend (Mr. Grattan) had been somewhat hardly
used, as to the course which he had deemed it right to
propose for adoption. As to the main question 'be-
fore them, it had his unqualified concurrence ; and
as to securities, it was his opinion that the best secu-
rity was to be found in the good opinion of the people.
All these securities rested on an unsound foundation ;
no other security but that which w is founded on the
good opinion of the people was worth contending for.
He thought, however, that those offices which had at-
tached to them Ecclesiastical patronage, ought not to
be thrown open to the Catholic, as would be the case
if the Lord Chancellor could be selected from amongst
Roman Catholics. The Catbolic, however, had alrea-
dy the substance of political power, and it appeared to
him that they were now quarrelling about the shadow.
Was not this an absurd mode f proceeding ? If the
Right I-lon. Gentleman (the Speaker) thought that
farther concessions ought to he made to the Catholics,
it was his duty to propose them in the Committee, be
cause the present was one of the very few opportunities
which that Right Hon. Member had of addressing
the House. His ( Lord M.'s) decided opinion was,
that all political power and offices, with the excep-
tions to which he had alluded, ought to be open to
every subject in the country, and that exclusion
shouhi no longer rest on the religious opinions of any
portion of the people.
Mr. WILBERFORCE thought they ought to
have commenced their proceedings by taking into
consideration the state of the laws affecting the Ro-
' man Catholics of Ireland. This was particularly
dfsirable, as very contradictory statements on this
subject had gone forth to the world, as such an en-
quiry would have contributed much to a cool discus..
sion and satisfactory decision. The elective franchise
having been given to the Roman Catholics, he
thought it absurd and injurious to deny them seats
in Parliament.—(Hear, hear.)—This he argued at
some length, and strongly contended, that admitting
them to sit in Parliament could in no respect be dan-
gerous to the Constitution. By conceding this, they
would iticriaue the power of. the Catholics to blare

•
the Pritetfattt estahlishment, while they walla 41;
nish the temptation and dicpositinn to !I 5.,. R
;using their ptayer, they left them the power of n
ing against the Protestant interest, by their ig-ntl
with more semi:), thin they could have, if th:t
which they asked were conceded. so they deeeive
themselves if they thought thy could stop wher
they were with safety. In his opinion it would b
a great improvement upon the present state
things were the Catholics admitted into Parliament
—Now they were brought into contact with p 111
tical offices, and debarred from their attainment
which) must create discontentment and ill wi11...-.
He was decidedly in favour of the mnsure
with proper securities, and considered- the preset,
time to be peculiarly favourable for carrying it, Iron
the general diffusion of light and knowledge whicl
had taken place, and the consequent honourable am
bition which had arisen in the breasts of C it'anli
Gentlemen, every way quAlified to take a share ii
1 the political duties of the country. The allowini
them the elec ive franchise, without allowing then
to sit in Parliament, WAS an anomaly not congenis
with the Constitution, which allotted to every grea
body or interest a representative in the Senate to es
press its opinions and wishes. He hopel they migh
yet live to see the good effects of these concessi ans-
all irritations allayed, the ferment in Ireland com
posed, and all ranks of the people sensible of tb
blessings of the Constitution they were permitted t 4
enjoy, though their Clurch might not have the ascers
dancy. He concluded by stating, that the hig')et
orders of the Catholics were not so mach influenm;

by their priests as formerly ; and as an es imple of tai
cited the conduct of a Catholic Noblzrn to ia, this,
country, who, regardless of the annual escornosuni
cations against us as heretics read in their churches'
raised a regiment of Catholic Volunteers for the de.
fence of this Protest int State; sad with the spirit an
feelings of an Englishm tn. since nzieter himself n
his son conl.l by INw command them, he w Is resol.
red to do his (buy, and his son served in the mks.
( L9ud :ries of hear.)
Dr. DUIGENAN strike at consider tble length
against the Catholic Claims. but amid much noise
and tumult. He contended that their scherns: now
was preciselythe same as that entertained by.l.mn Ir.
and that, if accomplished, it would he eqa tl to a
total revolution in the Government of the country.
They asked for unrestricted political and civil rights,
which in his opinion ought not to be granted, as their
whole tenets and opinions were inveterately and un-
changeably hostile to a Protestant Establishment. To
prove this, the Right Hon. Gentleman went into nu-
merous documents, and read cop; usly from their
oaths, and the decisions of various Councils unrepealed.
which tended to shew their entire dependance upon
the Pope, and that they were not bound to keep faith
with Heretics. The spiritual supremacy of the Roman
See, he (Dr. D.) argued, brought with it temporal
power; and in the present situ Ition of the Pope. under
the controul of our greatest enemy, the grant of a
participation in the authority of the State to him
would be most dangerous and unwise. He next no.
ticed the petitions; and stated, that the signatures to
those from Protestants in Ireland, in favour of con-
cession, amounted to only four thousand, while those
against it were above one hundred thousand most
respectable names. This circumstance, with the peti-
tions from England, signed by more than 300,000
persons, evidently sheered the feeling of the people
on the subject. He called on Gentlemen to look
to the extent of the Statutes they were called on to
repeal. Many of these he enumerated, and de-
clared the measure proposed to be a fundamental
overthrow of the Constitution, doing away with
the Test and Corporation Acts, and Violating the Co.
ronation Oath, as well as the Acts of Union between
England and Scotland, and Great Britain and Ire.
land. He also noticed a suggestion thrown out on a
former debate, that even if the 100 Irish Members ,
were Catholics, there would be no danger in thefact.
That they would be so, he thought very probable, and
appealed to the House it such a body, acting together,
with one end in view, would not soon rule the Parlia.
ment ? The rudder was small, but it guided the
ship ; and no Minister could withstand such a comb;.
nation as this might be, of men elected, not by the
property, but by the beggary of Ireland, and under
the influence of their Catholic priests.
Lord CASTLEREAGH having stated his gene.
ral opinion on a former night, now rose to speak
solely to the motion of the Right Hon. Gentleman. ,
The House, he was sure, must feel that they were
to stop where they were, they had either gone ;oo far
or not tar enough. It would be a subject of great
regret, if, alter the resolutions .ot last Partia 'lent,
and adoption of that pledge by the present House,
the matter should be terminated abriii):iy, without
their being able, after all this discw,sien, to collect L,
any practical result. For these r2asoas fir wts
favour or the motion. At the same time he had no ;
scruple in stating his personal regret that the Right ,
Hon. Gentleman had not opened his views to a larger
extent than he had done, and given him same pros.
pect of being able to agree with him hereafter. But
if the Right Hon. Gentleman had not come up to
his outline, he had c tiled for no pledge ; and the
more he heard this measure discussed, the more con-
scientiously was he convinced, not only of its exile.
diency, but of its actual necessity. The motion be.
fore them left it open to any Member to graft any
amendments upon it he might think requisite—it
only acknowledged the principle, but bound them to
no detail. It had been stated by a Right Hon. Gen-
tleman (Mr. Abbott) that this resolution embraced
a generol sweep of repealing all the statutes of restric-
tions, without providing any securities. If lie thought
so, he would vote against it ; but as it must be accom-
panied in its future progress with modifications and
restrictions, he was not anxious to look out for points
of difference in its earliest stages, and would there.
fore support it in principle, till of necessity they came
to points where diversity of opinion prevailed. He
then referred to the proposition made by Sir J. Hip.
pisley, which he considered to be objectionable, as it
would bring a code of laws they all looked on with
regret, into an invidious view ; it would also lead to
the examination of Doctors Milner, O'Connor, &c.
and afford them a reasonable prospect of a religious
controversy up stairs. The only point on which it
could be useful, would be in enquiring into, and de.
termining the state of the influence allowed to the
Roman See in other countries of Europe, Catholic as
well as Protestant; but this subject was already coma
pletely elucidated by the Hon. Baninfa% pamplikee

• .
~• e interference the
°hi ofSee of R • One wve
the ilihjict of jealousy to every State, and this was
the only 'country where it was under no restrictions.,
Ills Loidship concluded by saying, he should give
his cordial vote for the resolution, as leading towards
an issue, which, if accomplished, would be tt.blessing
to the people, and a—protection to the Empire..
Mr.CANNING strenuously supported the motion-.
• Mr. PZEI.E, Sir C. BURREL, and Mr. DANKES opposed
the aebolution.--,On a division, there appeared,
For the Resolution, 166--Against. it, 118.—Majority, 67.
Acljliitned at Half-past Two to Thursday.

THE EVENING STAR

LONDON.

WEDNESDAY, MARCH 10, 1813.
FAST-DAY.—liolilsy at the Stock Exchange.
Two Gottenburgh Mails arrived this morning, but
they bring no intelligence of a date more recent than
that which was received by the mails of Monday.—
: The length and importance of the debate on the Ca-
tholic Question; and of the documents respecting the
Princess of WALES, compel us to be brief in our ex-
litraets. In the month of January, Berlin daily exhi.
bited scenes of tumult and disorder ; the populace

having repeatedly risen against the French, whom
they occasionally succec ded in confining to their
barracks.
Count Rovropoutx, the brave and virtuous Cover-
; tor of Moscow, has been appointed Minister of the

Interior of 'Russia. The Ex-Prussian Minister STEIN,
whose enmity to BONAPARTE recently called forth a
furious Proclamation against him, has also been made
a Russian Cabinet Minister.
One of the above Mails is that which was sup-
posed to have been lost.