Star.
London, England, 1804-03-16 00:00:00

our Mon craft, and completely deftroy the flotilla
of the enemy. The gallant Admiral has detailed to
the Houk Tome parts or this plan; but be has not
told us whether it was the production of his own
brain or that of Come other perfon, and, doubtlefs
it would be, from the fpectmen he has given
us, a tolerably Itrong proof of his gallantry to own
it (a &ugh). Without pretending to much nautical
knowledge, one might, I think, queßion the correli-
nets of the Hon. Adrnirpl's ideas upon this project,
for the practicability of making ufe of gun boats to
annoy the flotillas on the French coati was denied by
every intelligent naval officer; but whatever is their
tile in the Ihoals along that coact, they furely are
incapable of any degree of utility, comparable to that
Iwhich may be derived from large (hipping upon our
own coact. Wherever the latter can be employed,
the former mull be comparatively ufelefs. It is no-
torious that, all along from Pevenfey to Dungenefs,
a man of war can anchor dole in fnore, fuch is the
depth of water. This, therefore, is the detcription
of force upon which I would place my confidence
either for attack or defence. As to the former, who
can entertain a doubt that, if the French gun boats
should venture out, and the flightelt breeze (hould
arife, that Captain Markham, whom I mention not
as a Member of Parliament, for that I knowavould he
irregular, but as a naval officer, that Sir Edward
Pellew, Sir Thomas Trowbridge, or in fad any of-
ficer known in our naval records,- would not, with a
tingle 74, (hoot through and fink a crowd of that
contemptible craft. With refpea to the number of
feamen and marines now employed, it has been Rated
by the Right Hon. Gentleman on the Treafury Bench,
that there were 98,000, which is only zOOO (port of
the whole amount voted ; bat the Hon. Gentleman
who (poke laR is Rill ditfatisfied. He fays that there
ought to be more men. He does not feem to recollect
that the vote of the Horde limited the Admiralty ;
and that it was at the time that vote was made the
Honourable Gentleman's objections would be molt
timely and proper. That was the period to confider
the amount of the force neceffary to maintain the war.
The Admiralty had thought soo,ooo men fofficien:,
and it appeared that they were right, notwithllanding
the Hon. Gentleman's difapprobation. They had,
and it was not the leaft of their merit, collected this
vail force in the (pace of twelve months, notwith.
Itanding the number of our other defcriptions of
force, and without interrupting the aliveemployment
of our population in the various avocations of com-
merce, manufactures, and agriculture. To the ob-
' fervations of the Right Honourable Gentleman, on
the propriety of building (hips in merchant's dock.
yams, I truß enough has been Paid by the Honour.
able Baronet (Sir Edward Pellew), at whofe pre-
fence this night the Houk has reafon to rejoice, to
convince the Right Honourable Gentleman of his
error, and alto to (hew him that his partiality to gun-
boa b is not quite fo judicious as he imagined. After
what the Honourable Baronet has urged on this point
I (ball hope the Ripe Hon. Gentleman will no
lorler attempt to maintain his argument, unlefs he
be influenced by filch magnanimity that he would
not with to oppofe the French gun boats by any but
their own matches...(.llmA) I have heard a Right
Honourable Gentleman on the lower bench (Mr.
Windham) often deplore that is the age of chivalry
was gone ; ' but furely that complaint can no longer
be repeated, if the Right Honourable mover of the
propolition before the Houfe (hall continue to mani-
felt a with rather to oppofe gun boats to thole of the
French, than to fee a crowd of them run down by an
Englith 7+. This would be fomething like the feel.
ing which I am Pure would influence the Right Hon.
Gentleman on the lower bench, if, in palling through
the beet, he should happen to fee two men engaged
of unequal lize and Rrength. The Right Honoura-
ble Gentleman would immediately interelt himfelf for
the weaker party, and call into action that fcience for
which he is fo diainguilhed, to releafe, and perhaps
to avenge him—(4laugh.)—To be ferious : it is ab-
turd to lay, that we lhould at once give up that for-
midable defcription of naval force, in which we have
always found our arength and our glory, and take up
another which is condemned, not merely by the cape.
rience to which I have already referred, but by the
judgment of the molt refameable naval officers.
!'hat this change too fltould be chofen, as the Right
Honourable Gentleman recommended, merely in
order to reduce us to a level with the French boats,
for no other argument to fupport the choice has
been advanced, really furprifes me. It is fome-
thing like this, that if we had a (lone wall to de-
fend us .tgainft the (hot of an enemy, it lhould be
iccorumentled to us to throw down the wall and fling
Banes at our alfailants. An anecdote has been very
generaily mentioned with refpeft to the Right Hon.
Gentleman who had commenced this Debate. It Is
laid that he propofed this fentiment—s'lhe Vnlun
Leers, and 3 (needy meeting with the enemy on our
own filmes." This to-AR, I underfland, was pro-
poled among a number of Volunteer Officers about
tit months ago, at a time when the Volunteers, upon
whom we are fo much to rely for our fecurity, could
not be much acquainted with difcipline, if, accord-
ing to the Right Hon. Gentleman's affertion, they
ars evenmow very defedive in that refpea. I am
as ready as any man to pay a jua compliment to the
Right Honourable Gentleman's Olive endeavours
to promote the improvement of the Volunteers. I
acknowledge that his folicitude for their advance
ment and glory is confiderable, and probably he
withes to remove any impediment in their way.—
His defire is, perhaps, that they Iliould have a full
opportunity of diltinguilbing thentfelves purfnant to
the toalt I have quoted. If Each be his view, he
certainly could not accompli(h it by better means
than by contriving to have the defence of our coon.
try committed to his favourite gun boats, intlea3 of
men of war. Independently of the other objections I
have offered to chafe gun-boats, there is one which
occurs to me of too much Itrength to be omitted. If
they were of the Caine kind as thole of laR war, any
deictiption of men would be good eactuebor too gocd
for them ; and if good men were required for them,
they could not be had, without deducting from the
number neceffary (or our important (hipping. la'hy
then join with the corrupt band of deteeed pecula-
tors in ccitlastng the Admiralty for net paying all
the attention which the Right Hon. Gentleman de.
fared to theft gun brats t A little confidtterion ~...ht
to be fufficicot to prevent anv man from compasi.a..g
.t that refpedable Board—that Dowd wl.ien i. ec•
fpedable in the ruination I 1 all men but einfliken
por Wag& ur fraadulcat coots 114 m—that Bou d %bock

has fuch numerous difficnlt7es to encounter, all incur-
red by a folicitnde to expofe and ;miffs fraud—to re-
cover and to fpare the public money. Has the Right
Hon. Gentleman read the five Reports from the Corn-
miffionere appointed to inquire into the abufes com-
mitted in the feveral branches of the Naval Depart-
ment ? If fo, has he not there ken the foul corruption,
the abominable artifice, wits which the Admiralty
I has laid to Itruggle? Has the Right Hon. Gentleman
obferved the frauds expo Ced in the Second Report—
the Block and Coopers' Contrads, where :cool. have
been paid for work proved not to be worth :col. ?
Has be read the defcripti in of the plunder pradifed
on Seamen by the Prize Agents ; and if fo, can he,
can any man who loves the friends of his country
and virtue, refute his gratitude and admiration to
the Fira Lnrd of the Admiralty, who originated
this inquiry ? An inquiry which has irritated agaiall
him a bolt of enemies. They are enemies, however,
which that Noble Lord mull deipife. It was but the
prejudice of defeated vice againtt triumphant virtue.
It could not d'Rurb the Noble Lord's mind. While
he was only graded by thofe worms who had fed and
fattened upon the corruption of the Navy—while he
had only to reckon as his foes thofe who had proved
themfelves hoaile to honour and Office, who had
enriched themfelves on the fpoils of their country—
while fuch only were his enemies, the Noble Lord
would proceed in his made of glory as he did in the
vi Tory on the memorable tath of February 1797,
difdainiog and declining to Ten hate their attack ;
but when the Right Hon. Author of the motion be.
fore the Houfe becomes his affailant, the Noble Lord
mutt feel furprifed. Even that Right Honourable
Gentleman, however, cannot injure him.—His fame
Rands too high—his charader is too firmly cflablifhed
to be hurt by the affertions of any Member, and I
have no doubt that the Noble Lord would be ever
found entitled to the applade and protection of his
country. With regard to the Right Hon. Gentle.
man's recommendation, that (hipping lhould be built
in the merchants' dock yards, I !hall only refer him to
the (hips mentioned by the Hon. Baronet, and alto
to the cafes defcribed in the Reports of the Commif-
fanners of Naval Inquiry, particularly to the cafes
where it appeared that the perfons who received pay-
ment for (hips built in merchants' yards, were clerks
in the King's dock yards. Is it pollible to fuppofe
that collufions did not exitt in fuch cafes as there
The Right Honourable Gentleman has Paid that it
is impoffible during war to build any number of (hips
in the King's dock yards, and that therefore a ne.
ceflity arias of reforting to the merchants' yards.—
What a melancholy expreffion—that in thole yards,
where there were 3200 men employed, nothing more
than the mere repair of (hips could be done. If fo,
then our furprife mull be ditniniffied, that a French
fleet fhould have been permitted, in the courfe of the
lag war, to find its way to Egypt, anal another French
fleet to fail to Ireland, where nothing but the ele-
ments offered to prevent a formidable French army
from landing. If, however, the King's dock yards
are really co little ufeful, or rather to ufelefs, they
ought to be abolifhed altogether. A new 'jam ought
to be adopted. If they could only finifh in theft
yards 24 fail of the line, 15 frigates, and Come few
hoops in the courfe of /0 years, although it is known
that 45 lhipwrights can build a 74 in one yeas—that
there are 3200 Shipwright. in thofe yards—and that
the expence, &e. could not be Ids in twenty years
than 4,100,0001. a Cum equal to the building of the
whole navy of England, it follows, of courfe, that
it is bad policy to continue the maintenance of thefe
dock yards. It is befides well known that the inter-
nal fyllern of theft yards is bad. There is no diffe-
rence in the wages allowed to the workmen ; the un-
Wifel can earn as much as thole of a different de-
, fcription. Thus emulation is prevented, and many
advantages, of courfe, 101 l to the employers. The
Right Hon. Gentleman may anfwer this, aid fay,
that, although fo many abufes have been dr:ceded by
the Commiflioners of Naval Inquiry, that trill the
fyftem of the dock yards is good ; but I afar, and
am prepared to maintain the aflertion, that abufe
pervades every department of the fyflem. Does the
Right Hon. Gentleman know of the frauds which the
Commiflioners have found to have been committed
in every article with which theft yards are furniflud,
particularly blocks ? From there Auks arife the tie-
ceffity of advertifing for contradora to build (hipping;
and as to correct them, to produce integrity and ar-
rangement in all the departments of the navy, is and
has been the great endeavour of the high character
upon whom it appears to be the object of the motion
before the Houfe to fix an imputation, I (hall vote
ageing it with as much fati.fadion as ever I gave a
vote fince I had the honour of a feat in this Houle,
fully convinced that filch a motion is only calculated
to gratify the corrupt, to frown upon reform, and to
alTail the reputation of a gallant Officer, whole claims
to the gratitude of the country can only be equalled
by the elteem and attachment he enjoys among all
that are great and good."
Mr. FOX fpoke to fubflance as follows : I feel my.
felt placed in a fitnation fomeahat extraordinary on
this occafion. With a great part of what has been
Paid on the merits of the Flea Lord of the Admiral-
ty, I am arongly difpnfed to concur, but at the fame
time, I cannot fee how thefe arguments tended to the
conclufion at which they arrived. My Honourable
Friend near me (Mr. Sheridan,) has made, a, he al-
ways does, a fpecch of the utenoft bsilliAncy and elo-
quence, in which, however, he feemcd to me to hate
almo:t entirely omitted the reafons on which he was
to negative the motion, and he contented Maslen with
announcing the vote he was prepared to give
though ready togive my ready a trent to the dillingui fh •
cd worth and pre-eminent Cervices f Lord St. Vin-
cent, I feel that the bell way I can mill', my raped
for filch a charade'', is to give my vote for the mo-
tion. I feel that a flee thrown on the reputation of
East St. Vincent, would be a lola to the Country,
and to remove every fdpicion of that kind, I fay,
let there be ample means of inqu.ry afforded, to
that the triumph of Lord St. Vincent may be the
'more comple:e, fatidadory, and ghrious. It appears
to me that the defender' of Lord St. Vincent had
but two mules which they could wick propriety pur-
fue, either to (ay that no cafe whatever had been
made out, and then refufe all the papers Act, or to
produce all the papers which couli reatenab'y be
afkcil for, and 'p.m the confiderato.n of tlicfe to call
for the centime or the acquioal of the lionfe. But
the Ito e of cooduft which Minittets have thought fit
to take, does neither the one or the o:her. By grant•
tam papers and refafiag others, sboy 141.1ki;

enough to emmithenee the ildldeioi of fomething
wrong iA the Naval'Adminiftriumpi itind de totier,
far ettotilli to let that ftifpicieso be wiped awiy. gni'
the courfe which Minihis hive thought fit to adopt
it is not difficult to explain. They *IL to defend:
Lord St. Vincent as they would hate defended them-, .
felves't they with to put him on a level with them, to
obtain the precedent of his great name to refill in-
quiry, fo that every other inquiry play be fruftrateds
they with to put him on a level wills Lord Hard.;
wicke, fo that the refufal of inquiry in the intlance
of one that can bear it, may be an argument for ret:
ting inquiry slide when it might tend to produce dif-
coveries they would fupprefs. The Right Hon.
Gentleman who fpoke firft (Mr. Tierney) againd
the motion, agrees that the papers alluded to in two '
of the motions (hall be granted; bat he it of opinion
that the third cannot be granted. If, however, tie,
ark for any papers at all be to cad Come tar on the
Firft Lord of the Admiralty, why are any papers
granted at all ?Oris it becaufe thofe which are rk-• ,
Wed might lead to inquiry, that they are withheld,'
If this be the objsf of the defenders of Lord St.`
Vincent, I am confident that he mod difelahn
filch tt mode of proceeding. lam confident that
he would countenance no (haling or evafion to
fupprefs inquiry; and that he would not be content
if he thought that it could be furpeded he was ad.
eerie to have his adminiftration cadvaffed That
Miniilers,knowing that the conduit of the Fire Lord
of the Admiralty is in every refpmft a contrail to their
own, with to make common canfe with him, in offers
ing a mode of defence to which, on a future °maims,
they them Ives may retort. Towards Lord St. Vin-
cent I feel ueh perfonalf iendthip, and this renders
me anxious t at his reputation thould Rand high; but
public motives give me a Rill greater intereli in his
fame and honour. Of his glorious atchievensent on
the tith of February no man can think higher than I
do ; but his conflia with the abufes and corruptions
of his department appears to be, though lets brilliant,
not lefs arduous and meritorious. On the ,4th of
February he engaged and vanquithed the enemy; but
he has waged a war no lets difficult, with jobs, and •
contrails, and frauds. He has broken their embat.
tied line, no lets arduous than to penetrate that of the
enemy. My Admiration el him is increafed to find
him pads, in fo high a degree, that which is mom
rare than gallantry in the field— civil courage and
decifion as well as perfonal courage. I feel that his
virtues and public deferts in this coined with corrop
tiun have naturally led to that obloquy by which hi
has been purfued. The attempt to put to rout the
hods of corruption moll have created him enemies.
Such may have been the perfons from whom as
Hon. Gentleman oppofite (Mr. Wilberforce) obtain-
ed the information he mentioned; but let the miter.
able s-itneifes be brought forward, that their tellit
molly may be examined and difproved. This calls
to my mind an anecdote of a rifible nature—lt bap.
pened that when Juftice Wines, a man who tomasy
eminent qualities added a confiderable moon of
humour, was one day employed in trying a caufe,
I believe of murder, and one of the witneilks dm
pofed that a ghoft had Paid fo and fo ;—" 0, very
well (laid the Judge), I have no objedion to the
evidence of the 014; let him be brought in and
fworn I" So provided the witneffes alluded to by the
Hon. Gentleman can be brought forward, I have
no °Nation to receive their evidence at the bar of
the Houle, that we may afterwards decide upon it.
—During the whole courfe of the debate, the only
perfon who has made any direfl charge againft the
condo& of the Admiralty in general is my Hon. and
gallant Relation (Admiral Berkeley) who fpoke lately.
As to the Right Hon. Gentleman who made the nao-
lions, I conttft, that he teems to me to have made out
i little or no tate. With refpeft to the number of gun
boats in employtnetit now and at former periods, the
comparifon affords no coneltifion, unlefs it be iltewn
likewife that the exigency of the cafe was fuch as to
demand greater exertions and a greater proportion
of this fpecies of force. Unlefs too it can be flsewn,
that of gun brigs a greater number ought to be em-
ployed, the late period at which the Admiralty made
the contrails for fuch veffels proves nothing. The
Right Hon. Gentleman likewife propoCes to sddrefs
the Crown, recommending greater exertion in this
way ; but any meafures for the improvement of our
defence mull be left to thofe who are in official
flotations. But in viewing our Rate of defence, the
great mind of the Right Hon. Gentleman mutt fee
that it mutt be judged of upon a general fylietn, and
not upon any particular runt. It is impoffible, but,
that in viewing each point feparately there moil ap-
pear to be Come deficiency. It is evident, however,
that fume inferior parts mull be overlooked, in order
that the perfeltion of the whole may he obtained; and
I am inclined to think, that if there be any part of
our defence which it was more Cafe to facrifice than
another from its being of inferior moment, it is that
of which the Right Honourable Gentleman has in. ,
rifted. Had the motion been for papers generally, !
I might have been a little puzzled to know bow I :
(koala vote, though I believe I hill &mild have I
voted for inquiry; but as the matter floods now I I
cannot hefitate. If the pipers are refuted, it mutt
infer tome dur upon the Era Lord of the Admiralty;
if forme of thefe documents are withheld, it may
be laid by the Right Honourable Gentl:mao, that
he was prevented from carrying the one:ti.:ll he
meant to move, becaufc inquiry NA% airrelilli. and
I.e was denied the papers by which his Case was to
be proved. But it it faid, that if all the papers were I
granted. a fafpicion would lic ayainft tha ti, it Lord 1
to the Admiralty. But hiw long could filch a fol. r
picico continue ? No longer, fusels, than till the in-
quiry
took place. But if any fulpicion mile. from the
motion or from the papers produced, it is iropoffible
to fay how long forpicinn may remain. flocs no in-
quiry is allowed by which it can be removed. Mini- ,
tiers protect themielves friends of Lord St. Vincent
in the prefent inllarce ;—but how hive they (hewn
thensfclvet iolicitou. about the tame an..l the aceotty. I
modation i.f that noble Lord on other occalions ? Do
we not know, tha:. I. r at I:ail eighteen months, a dif. I
ference of the 1111,!I llli.m. kind, and to the ittsdl.
went of public buoine::, exiOt.l between the firft Lord
and the Secretary of the Admitalty ; yet that Seers-
toy preferred his place for a year and a half under
thofe very Minifict II who lately contestiod, that on ae-
cotlnt of a coolnefe between the Lord Lieutenant at
Ireleni and the Commander in Chief there, it was
inspdfitile that the latter could, coofidesstiy nit%
the public filmy, remain in his place for a wok.
I cannot help thinking tivertforos tat the aims