Star.
London, England, 1822-03-27 00:00:00

SUBSTITUTES FOR COFFEE.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN said, he had some time
ago moved that there be laid before the House a copy of
the Order given to the Commissioners of Excise, under which
they had caused a quantity of roasted wheat and other grain,
purporting to be an imitation of coffee, to be seized. The House
had directed that the Returns should be made; and the same
mot having been made, he again moved on Friday last that the
Returns be made forthwith, and the House agreed to the mo-
tion: but no notice having been since taken of it, he wished to
know in what manner he was to proceed in order to obtain the
information he sought for?
The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, he felt that there was a
great necessity for sonic regular plan by which the Orders of
the House might be enforced. The great difficulty in this re-•
spect arose from the manner in which the *notions were made.
When an Address was ordered to be presented to the Sove-
'reign for making a ceetain Return, no difficulty existed, and the
Order was complied with as a matter of course; but when the
'Oider was directed to a particular office, there was always some
confusion as to the parties whose duty it was to make the
Ii:-
turn. He should most readily concur in any plan, either by the
appointment of a Committee or otherwise, which should have
the effect of making an arrangement for the regular enforcement
.of the Orders of that House, for the production of any docu-
ments that might be moved for.
• The Nlarquis of LA NSDOWN then moved that the Officer
whose duty it was to serve the Order Of the house, be called
to the bar.
This motion being complied with, Mr. QITARMT, the Yeoman
Usher of the Black Rod, and one of the doorkeepers came to the
bar, and were examined by the Noble Marquis.
Mr. Cb:ARME stated, that having received -the order of the
House from Mr.Walmsley, he gave it to one of the doorkeepers,
and that the doorkeeper, by sonic mistake, had served the order
on the Commissioners of the Treasury, instead of the Commis-
sioners of Excise. In the course of the examination of Mr.
Q.larme rd the doorkeeper, the latter stated that he delivered
the order of the I louse to Mr. Adrian, of the Treasury, who,
on receiving the same, said it was all right. After the second
moti, of the Noble Marquis, for making the return forthwith,
the second order seas also given to Mr. Adrian, 'and he made
the same answer as he had done before.
The WIZ I ) (' lIAN C E It said he knew from his own
knowledge th.:t there existed, at various times, a great difficulty
of ascertaining who were the proper officers to whom orders for
the return of p,:rers ought to be sent. 'got:lames these orders
could not he en triced if one were to work day and night to ob-
tain what v.-as r:quired, and therefore some rule ought to be
adonted in order to know upon whom orders of different kinds
ought to he served. lle had ::n doubt but that the parties directed
to serve the orders alwayi acted to the best of their judgment.

The Earl of I VE:i POOL knew that there was always
•ome confusion in ca.,es where the Ilonse did not proceed by
Address ; and he agreed in the necessity of some plan by which
orders should be sent in the proper channels.
. Earl GREY said, that in this instance no misconduct could
be imputed to any person, except the officer of the Treasury,
who told the Messenger of that House, MI receiving its order,
that all was right ; and be thought that circumstance ought to
be inquired into.—After some further conversation,
The Marquis of LA N SHOW X gave notice that he would
m•we, to-morrow, tc have Mr. Adrian called to the bar, for the
purpose of requiring him to explain his reason for the answer be
gave to the Messenger of that House at the time he served the
order upon him.
CIVIL LIST.

The Order of the Day for summoning their Lord-
ships being read,
Lord KING rose to make the motion of which he
had given notice, upon the subject of the Civil List.
Ilis wish was, in the first instance; that the House
should return thanks to his Majesty for the reduc-
tions he had recommended to be made in the ex-,
penses of the country. Certain reductions were pro.
posed, and so far they must be satisfactory to the
Public ; but a :considerable degree of dissatisfaction.
still existed in the mind of the Public, that future re-
ductions were not to be made in those parts of the
Civil List which were not immediately connecteJ
with the expenses of the Sovereign. A very consi-
derable part of the Civil List was involved in intri-
cacy, and there existed great extravagance in various
other departments besides those connected with his
Majesty's expenses ; and all this, he believed, was
dune with a view of keeping up undue influence and
patronage. No one, he believed, would venture to
say that the Civil List was not within the cognizance
and controul of Parliament, or that Parliament had
not at any time a right to make an inquiry into it.—
Ile should shew that, in the branch relating to fo-
reign Ambassadors, the greatest extravagance had
been observed. He maintained it was the duty of
Parliament to keep down this expense, for the Crown
neither could nor had any interest in keeping it
down. The Act expressly stated that when any extra
expenses were to be incurred, they were to be turned
over from the Civil List to the Consolidated Fund.
The Crown, therefore, could derive no advantage
from any excess of expenditure. The classification
of the Civil List was not regulated on any principle
of economy ; and it was at this time different from
what it had been arranged in 1816. The Public
were informed that a sum of thirty thousand pounds
was to be taken from the expenses of his Majesty,
and that there was tobe a further reduction of twenty-
five thousand pounds. But that reduction fell very
far short of the public expectation. Queen Anne, at
a time when the Public were much distressed, gave
£lOO,OOO for their relief ; and that sum was Ns-
' - public service. Now, although the coun-
t under much greater difficulties, not so
per Cent. was given up. Here the Noble
over the different classes of the Civil List,
shew that the Public could not be satis-
the reductions already made or proposed to
it, at a time when so great au alteratiau

1

t

, tailor% All that could be granted would be spent,
had taken placetin tie ;nieces( all She necess ...
• iditrilseselscretary of State would say that it was ne-
life. After entinsbraOng thilinmageadted in
to the Ro7alFam(lrand others, hirLorchhip observed 'may tbleep up the dignity of the nation by a li-
bels' allowance. But the real cause of all those es-
that, isna; st:asos
otingshotr
haattdeisstoresmes,sthrne
penaiee establishments was the influence and pa-
etlties units/. winch the Public laboured ; and that !Foliage gained by them. !'tut Treasury Department
when they saw what had been done in order to
rithlsforecr theievrit
of great expense; so was the office of the ConaH
!Wake deductions from the salaries of the great .Off* : . .
ref.. Then the India Board-he could
cers of' State, they were bound in justice to make n-ot-RoilThiqie Why-the India Board might nnt be en-
similar sacrifices.. With respect to the pretended tirelLabolished, and the business handed over to the
Reforms brought forward in the year 1817, and the Office of the Secretary for the Colonies? But . the
attempts to reduce certain sinecure places, no benefit fact was, that all those departments were maintained
whatever had resulted from them ; and he wished 'fa -the sake of influence. Every consideration was
to know what the Public had gained by the. falling obliged to give way to that influence ; and, for its
in of the places adverted to at that time—(icar).— sake, places were still kept up, whether useful or not.
With respect to the Bill of Reform proposed by Mr. That shewed the spirit of the English Government.
Burke, that was far from being satisfactory, several If their Lordships were to look back thirty years, and
places and sinecures were left untouched, particularly consider all the'campaigns of the Government during
in Scotland. The way in which the Public would that period,, they would find no one maintained with
receive any benefit from an economical lteform,would greater zearthan the campaign against the independ-
be by having the savings go into the public Exche- ence of Parliament. That was the great object; and
(pier. There still existed some places of profit as it was to that his Majesty's Ministers applied their
complete sinecures as any under the Crown. That entire attention, and, he was sorry to say, with great
of Master of the Hawks, for instance, and he did not success. Bonaparte himself never campaigned so,
know but it was represented by a Member of Parlia- eagerly or so successfully as his Majesty's Ministers
ment. All the offices of the Civil Government were had done against the independence of Parliament.—
new modelled in 1798. He found, on examination,• If it were asked why the Government bad not made
a general rise in every one of them since. He found great reductions in the civil departments since the
them universally increased, and in no case diminished. commencement of the peace ? the answer is, that
The return on their Lordships' table did not appear they wished to sacrifice millions, disregarding the '
to him (Lord King) to comprehend the total expense amount, because something should be done to gra-
of the foreign missions. 'The whole amount of allow- tify their friends and adherents. The Noble Lord'
ances granted to our Ambassadors at foreign Courts concluded by reading his motion, which was to the
in the year 1792 was about £BO,OOO, and that inclu- following effect :
ded the allowances to Secretaries of Legation, &c.— " That an humble Address be presented to his Majesty, re-
in the last year the allowances to our Ambassadors
_presenting_ the great expensesfei of the civil estadblhishmbeints, parti-
cularly to £133,000, including the charge for Sc- tebtatrbiTottai
Majesty expensesmight of
be foreign
oumsr„lnesase, 7 to humbly
ydirpecratyioni praying
amounted
cretaries of Legation. Then add to that the sum that such reductions should be made as were suitable to the cir-
of £13,850; which was another item belonging to the cumstances of the country, and consistent with the dignity of
foreign missions, so that those missions which, in the F.mpirq."
1792, cost the country £BO,OOO, had become at pre. The Earl of LIVERPOOL said, that after the
sent a charge of nearly £147,000. But the whole exertions made by his Majesty's Government to re-
amount of allowances to our- Ambassadors, Secre- duce the expenditure of the country to the lowest
caries of Legation, Consuls, &c. last year was no less rate possible, consistent with its. security and its
thait £229,000, whereas,• in 1792, the allowance for honour, he was surprised to find a charge brought
the same was within £89,000. He could prove that against them of lavish and inconsiderate expense.—
the whole of those charges for foreign missions, in- He had supposed that the strict economy exercised
eluding extraordinaries, amounted to £288,000. By in every department of the State would have saved
all the accounts which were laid on the table from them from any charge of that nature. The Noble
time to time, it would appear that the increase of ex- Lord had referred to several Reports in confirmation
penie for the Civil Departments since the year 1792, of his statements. He would also refer to Reports
was not less than 140 per cent. What was the amount of Committees with equal confidence. He would
of reduction proposed by his Majesty's Government? refer to the Report of .1817, • which had entered not
In 1816 it was proposed to relieve- the Civil List of only into the most minute investigation of every
certain burthens under the denomination of Extraor- branch of Revenue at that time, but lead also taken
dinaries; which were about £50,000 in that year.— into consideration the lowest rate to Which a peace
In 1815 those Extraordinary expenses amounted to establishment might be brought. The establishment
about £147,000. The Noble Lord then enumerated was at present reduced 1,200,000/. a year lower than
the different expenses of the mission of Lord Castle- that Committee had ventured to calculate upon. He
reagh to the Congress of Vienna, and of Lord Stewart, was surprised that the Noble Lord could, with the
and. observed that that was a year remarkable possession of that fact, have made the observations
for extraordinaries ! That was the minus memorabilis which he had addressed to their Lordships. No
for the expenses of the Secretary of State's Office.= charge could with any justice be brought against his
That was a year memorable for extravagance, and Majesty's Government for retaining unnecessary
would be long remembered, he was sorry to say, to offices, or stipporting a needless expense. The only
the disgrace of the country. The Noble Lord next apprehension in his. mind was, that they not only re-
alluded to the presents to foreign Ministers, which duced the expenditure as low as circumstances would
constituted an extraordinary. Russia particularly admit, but perhaps lower than they ought under
shared largely in those presents. In one year no less every consideration to have done. Few people, in
a sum than £12,127 would be found as charged in viewing the subject, take into account the charges
presents to the Ministers of Russia. In referring to that have grown up during the late war ; they did
the Report of the Select Committee, he found it not sce that the expense of the half-pay alone was
stated that salaries would decrease in proportion to five millions a-year, bearing so great a proportion to
the increase of pensions. But it appeared, in fact, the sum .of sixteen millions, which composed the
that as salaries increased, so did pensions also. The amount of the entire Civil, Military, and Naval Esta-
allowances to Sir Henry Wellesley and Lord Stewart blishments. It was not fair to say that since the peace
were increased in consequence, as appeared by a there were not efforts made to effect any reductions.
memorandum which he held in his hand, of the high He was bound, in justice to the civil servants of the
rate of exchange, which was then about 35 per cent. Crown, to declare that they had most anxiously la-
-But he would wish to know why those allowance- housed for retrenchment. An equal share of merit
were not reduced when the exchange was in our for their exertions was due to those who had spent
favour ? When Mr. Canning was in Portugal, the the greater part of their lives in the service of the
allowance was £l,OOO a-year. By why was not those State, as to those who had acquired distinction in
allowances to oisr foreign Ministers diminished ? defending it. He would say a new words as to the
The answer was plain. They would then be less doctrine vf the right of Parliament over the arrange-
worth the notice of Members -of -Parliament. A ment of the Civil List. He would admit that on
person mho had no connection with Members of the general principle there was no question that could
Parliament, would have little chance of being sent be put altogether out of the jurisdiction of Parlia-
out as Ambassador to a foreign Court. He ought, merit, if a sufficient reason was shewn for its inter-
probably, to except Sir C. Stuart and Mr. Hill, the fereuce ; but he spoke on authority, when he asserted
late Lord Malinesbury, and one or two others.— that, as long as the Crown kept within the bcunds of
With these few exceptions, it would be found that the Civil List, there was no ground for its inquiry.
Inone were sent on foreign missions unless those who He was ready, however, to allow that the particular
' had connections in Parliament. But he could not branch then under discussion was within the controul
conceive what Ambassadors had to do on some of of Parliament, according to the arrangement of 1816.
those missions. There Was always an Ambassador With that consideration, it was an exception to the
1
at the Hague. There was good reason formerly.— general rule. The Noble Lord had said, and said
That bad been the great centre of commerce for all truly, that on the accession of his present Majesty
the States of Europe. It was a place of great im- the estimate for the Civil List of 1816 was adopted.
portance; but it was not to be considered at present He had endeavoured to shew that, in 1820, from the
as a place of importance. Was it worth while to be alteration in the value of the currency, a reduced
at an expense.of 12,300/. a-year to Lord Clancarty estimate should hive been taken. He (Lord Liver-
for his residence there? It might be a convenient pool) could shew that, at the time the Report was
thing for Government to have certain Gentlemen made, the exchanges were in favour of this country ;
paid large sums for residing in foreign countries; gold was below the Mint price. Whether their Lord-
but why should those sums be paid at the expense of ships took the year 1820 or 1816, he bad a right to
the People of England! These were great diploma- take -it that Estimate was not founded on high prices,
tic jobs. There was an expense of £4900 attending or on a high currency, but under circumstances as
the embassy to Switzerland, a thing which cost here- low as those of the present moment. The Noble
tofore only £220. He was at a loss to know what Lord then said that in that House, and in the Hoase
would be the nature of the defence, which would be of Commons, an Address was moved to his Majesty
set up by Government for these extraordinary costs. that an inquiry should be made into all offices where
The Secretary of State might perhaps say, that they the salary had been increased since 1797—(1Iear).—
were necessary for preserving the balance ,o 1 power The Government did institute a most minute investi-
ia Europe. If, indeed, he said they were maintained gation ; the result of that inquiry would soon come
with a view to preserve a balance of .power in the before their Lordships in a legislative state. It would
House of Commons, the thing Would be intelligible prove that they had-done all that was due to Parlia-
enough. In order to preserve the balance of power ment and thCtountry. The Government might have
in the States of Europe, it was necessary' to have a stopped theret they were not called on to apply them-
person at Turin to be the guardian of the Alps. It .selves.lo '44 tithes than those raiied since 1797.
was impossible to preserve the balance in -Switzer- They felt that they could not exercise with strict jus-
land without an expense to England of E4;900. It- nice the duties they were called. on to ' orm, with-
was necessary to incur an expense of £12,300 by' re- out great hardship to many individt4s. r-Iperf
'll : bey con-
serving the balance of power at the Hague. • rile sidered it their duty; in the next place,' to recommend-
Noble Lord then made some observations on his eh to m •
t ajesty to *take an Order in council, impos.;
office of the Secretary of State for the Fcireign De- ing a tax of ten per cent. on all salaries in every de-
partment, and expressed his opinion that the greatest partment. There were but two exceptions
reductions should be made in the salaries of those of-
xecommendation—the situation of First
Lo rd of the
ficers, for which other'provision had been made by Admiralty, and . that of the Chancellor 'of the Ex-
Parliament. Much had been said of reduction, but chequer. it should be recollected, thatwhatever de-
when circumstances enabled their Lordships to make scription of property or of income had gained or lost
those reductions none were made. He did not think during the fluctuations of war or peace, the salaries
there was anything ungracious in asking the Crown of officers had remained stationary • in every change,
to make such reductions as would approach the last without any advantages
derived
from improvements
peace establishMents, particularly in the allowances that affected every other income. Their Lordships
to Ambassadors. No matter how 11111C11 was grained would hear with much satisfaction, that k was the

spontaneous offer of the .tovereign himself that every
officer, even those most immediately attendant on his
person, should contribute in the same proportion at
all others. The whole of the saving effected by those
arrangements amounted at present to £200,000 a
year, and they had the prospect of an additional
saving of £173,000 a year. It was, under these cir-
cumststnees, for their Lordships, for
Parfiaersratt, and
for the Public, to say if his Majesty's servants have
not done all that could possibly be expected from
them, and if they have not met the wishes of the
country by the most unqualified retrenchment? Ile
would next come to the third class, or that whichtualpe.
plied to foreign Ambassadors. He could not se•
the propriety of the Noble Lord drawing a compari•
son between the present time.and the period of 179 a
In that year the rate of salaries was the same as that
of 1721. No alteration bad been made in the salar:
of any Ambassador or Envoy from that year, ro:
to 1804. He would now submit it to any nerva
who had the least experience in that department,it was not positive ruin to any person to engage 13
any embassy, unless supported by a private i,n
of his own ? This very question was before the Cnm.
snittee of 1816, and' from their silence he ri.ight t.
justified in the inference that they did not consider
the Estimates were more than the circumstance;
fairly warranted. The papers were on their Lord-
ships' table to be inspected. He would submit it to
any person, even to one not acquainted with the di-
plomatic line, if the salaries were gi eater than the
most limited arrangement of expense would requite;
or if the office could be supported without the addi-
tion of a considerable private income. An objection
was taken by the Noble Lord to our retaining al
Ambassador in the Netherlands—he did not think
with much justice. He (the Earl of Liverpool) sr,s
of opinion that it became a question, if we shouY givz.
up that Embassy, or all others, whether any ma.' :4-
cpiainted with the politics of this country would n't
say there was a most absolute necessity for keepinz
up that in. Holland? Our Ambassador there was St:,
ject to considerable expense by the removal of the
Court every year from Brussels to the Hague, Which
obliged him to keep up two establishments, one az
each place, for the_ whole year. He was seidom more
astonished than at the position of the Noble Lord,
that the Netherlands was a Court to which we might
decline sending an Ambassador. He appealed to
their Lordships, if it would be consistent with the
high character of this country, if we did not maintain
throughout Europe our dignity by being represented
at each Court? Would it not be disrespectful to the
Courts-of St. Petersburgh and of Vienna, when they
desired. to send an Ambassador to this country, if we
refused to do so on our part? The question divided
itself into two branches, whether the number of our
Embassies was more than was required by the coun-
try, and if the scale of their remuneration was ore of
lavish profusion? It had been stated that at Swit-
zerland-thrie was no necessity for an Envoy he con-
sidered thaf-a Minister of the first rank was most ne-
cessary in that country in particular, if they recol-
lected the strong interest that was excited for its in-
dependence in the year 1811.—if they regarded its
situation in Europe—the key of Germany, Italy, and
France. If they considered the struggle that must
arise from the French and Austrian influence, ne-
cessity must be admitted that we should have an En-
voy.thete to support the principles of British pores.
With regard to the Secretary of Legation at Dresden,
there could rtizthave been a more useful appointment.
He would inform their Lordships, that out of
number of eighteen Ambassadors recorded befc:e
them, fourteen had been regularly brought up in of-
fice, and had gone through all the regular gradation;
from Secretary of Legation to the highest situation :
with regard to the other four, he could point out par-
ticular circumstances that would justify the appoint-
ment of each. There never was a period of our h:
tory when more regularity was obset ved in the ar•
rangements of this particular department. It might
be inquired w!ty the tax of ten per cent. levied on the
salaries of all other officers was not applied to those
of our Ambassadors ? He could say most ctnfidently
that there was not a single case where any reductica
could be made. No Minister had a salary greater
tllan was absolutely necessary for the support of l::s
situation. At a former period its amount was so in-
adequate to the actual expenses incuzred, that an al-
lowance was made for extra' payments, under the
head of contingencies. That system had been done
away with, and a necessary increase of salary was
given. The Noble Lord concluded by saying, that
no case had been made out to claim his support, and
that he would give his negative to the motion.
Lord HOLLAND said, that the Noble Earl who
had just spoken had fairly admitted, that the Me
which they had to argue was reduced within a nar-
row compass, and that the plain question which they
had to decide was, whether or not the present scale
of diplomatic expenditure was necessary, situated as
the country now was ? lie thought it could have
hardly escaped the penetration of the Noble Earl op-
posite, that notwithstanding his professions of eco-
nomy, he was liable to the imputation of being sonic-
what tardy in the support he had given to the reduc-
tions which had taken place in the principal depart-
ments of the Civil List. It was, indeed, 'somewhat
extraordinary that the Noble Earl should take sa
much merit to himself for the reductions which had
taken place. Had not the Noble Earl, over and over
again declared to their Lordships, before these reduc-
tions were decided upon, that the establishments of
the country were then reduced to the lowest possible
scale upon which they could be conducted with secu-
rity or advantage? How often had he not, in lofty
language and with all the force of his declamation,
asserted the actual necessity of maintaining_ at their
fullest extent establishments which he had since con,
sented to reduce, and declared, that so impossible
was it, according. to his opinion of the state of the
country, to conduct-the Government, except in the
then existing state :of those establishments, that it it
Were determined to touch them, it would only remain
`foi:him to tender his humble duty to his Sovereign,
and resign a situation which he could no longer fill,
with insufficient departments in the other branches
of the State ? Such were the repeated declarations
of the Noble Earl in that House : but strange it
'seemed, that when reductions could no longer be re•
sisted—when at length the time came of their being
'actually made (and with what grace, it did not re-
main for him' to say), not voluntarily, but by com-
pulsion, then said the Noble Earl—" These reduc-
tions 1 submit to Parliament as advantageous and

1 '.
' a time tuner
$ up £lOO,OOO
plied to the i
E try laboured
much as ai 1
Lord went o
in order to s
&ed with the
be made iu ii
1

1);IIIY emu:lnk:ll. I claim your additional cone-
dcnce for them—they are my particular merit; and
see the great reduction which they will both at pre-;
sent and ultimately effect." Such was the credit
which the Noble Earl seemed disposed to take for
those reductions which he had year after year op-
posed ; against the necessity of which he had always
strenuously contended, and which he had repeatedly
declared he looked upon as so injurious to the welfare
of this country and the dignity of his Sovereign, that,
if they were impolitically determined upon, he should
have no other course left but to resign his place in
his Majesty's Councils. So much for the credit which
the Noble Earl was disposed to assume for himself
with respect to these reductions ! Ile now cettainli
came forward with a certain degree of eandomt.
to admit, that though good faith required that cer4
tain parts of the Civil List should remain untouched
by Parliament so long as they were kept within
their stipulated amount ; yet -ithat under any, or;
kumstances the third class must always be consi-
dered as fairly before Parliament for revision.—
(Lord Holland) confessed that he was one oftliose
who always thought that there were many other parts
of the Civil List, besides the third class; in which' ltn-
portant reductions could and ought to be made. lie
avowed himself to be one of those who thought that
if another branch of the Civil List could be re-opened
without any imputation of a breach of good faith,
equally important reductions could be made from
departments which were miscalled appendages toabe
splendour and dignity of the Crown, and which,. if
they were now before Parliament for maiden; he
would snatch from their present appropyiatiOp..yiith-
out the slightest remorse. The third class was, how-
ever, confessedly open for revision at any time; and
then came the question, what had been tbe-nligilini
character of that branch of the public expendiblre ?
The Noble• Earl had gone over the subject histori-
cally,
and adverted to the different Reports which
had been made upon the Civil List by Committees of
both Houses of Parliament. Now, upon the subject
of the third class, all who thought with the Noble
Earl, that it was impossible it could be reduced with-
oat injury to the country, must necessarily vote
against the present motion; but, if after fUll reference
to the sources of information contained in the Parlia-
rnen:.u.y Papers, and to the actual scale of expense
(which, Sy the way, could not be clearly ascertained
!Ion) these Papers) which these c,tablishments cost,
there were any who thought that the expenditure ex-
ceeded the necessity urged in its justitieaLion, they
mere particularly bound to vote for his Noble Friend's
'_ion, on the reason of the thing alone, and even in-
dei•enlmt of the strong necessity superinduced by
retrenchment and economy which the country so
loudly c.Wed for in its present state. The Noble Earl
had laid bleat stress upon the Report of the Commit-
tee of the year 1816: be had also called their attention
particulaily to the Report of 1791, which he had re-
peatedly assured them was founded on the sc ale 0117'21.
Here he must doubt the Noble Earl's historical ac-
curacy ; for, if he did not mistake, a Committee had
sat upon the subject in the year 1786.—[Earl GREY
said, and another in 1790."3—Ye5, he believed that
was the fact; and the object of those Committees, if
he was not much mistaken,was, if possible, to reduce,
and not (as had been done) to augment the previous
scale of diplomatic expenditure. I%lr. Pitt was the
promoter of these Committees; for, before it was the
fate of this country to have been plunged by him
into a wicked, abominable, lavish, and unnecessary
war, he, too, had been engaged in pressing, for re-
ductions to establish principles of economy and 4C-
trenchment in all the departments of the State. Mr.
Plitt, at that time, did not go so far as to -nr.intain
what the Noble Earl now did—that length of years
necessatily implied an augmentation of the scale of
expenditure ; but rather, in the Committee of 1786,
endeavoured to retrace principles of comparative
economy, and diminish the existing scale of exPendi-
tnre below the former rate at which .it was affixed.
Mr. Pitt at that time brought the third class under
the consideration of the Committee. He did so again
in the year IBo4,when he had a second time plunged
his country deeply into a system of general extrava-
gance, and was even then engaged in reducing this
branch of the Civil List, as compared with what it
'vas before his wicked and fatal war of 1793. In
1316 the same object was kept in view, though not
in the same degree, and the ascertained expenditure
at the different petiods could be quoted from the
Parliamentary Papers. His Noble Friend had, early
in the evening, asked the Noble Earl opposite, if any
saving bad taken place in the third class of these Es-
timates ? and the Noble Earl had replied, he could
not say what saving, if any, had taken place in that
particular branch ; but that, if any were made, it must
have been duly carried on to the Consolidated Fund.
That was answering in plain terms, " if any saving
has been effected, 1 have not disobeyed the laws of
the land, but carried it forward to the proper ac-
count." Now he (Lord Holland) disavowed any in-
clination to press hard upon the Noble Earl ; he had
no disposition to draw any unfair or unwarranted
inference from his words; but he hoped he would not
impute to him a want of candour if, from that answer,
be had inferreithat no saving whatever had been made.
lie hoped that would not be a harsh conclusion to
draw from the Noble Earl's silence upon a matter of
detail which he must have known, and which he could
not fail to have stated in his enumeration of savings,
if it were possible to have pressed in a point of saving
as applicable to that class. Their Lordships, then,
had only to form their opinion upon the.comparative
saving as it stood in the documents before them, Let
them, for instance, compare the Estimates of 1786
%vith tho eof 1801. Upon glancing at these Papers,
he must contend, without alluding to individual cases,
that the gross amount considerably exceeded that
Which ought to be incurred for this branch of the
public expenditure. The Noble Earl, he must re-
mark, had left one great collateral branch of the di-
plomatic expenditure comparatively unnoticed—the
pensions and half-pay for foreign nlissions. He no
doubt felt that particular point to bo a weak part of
his case, and that the less it was noticed the better.
But to recur to the Estimates. Mr. I'itt, in the year
1786, then a time of peace, estimated the whole di-
plomatic expenditure, including Consuls and Mis-
sions of all classes—that, too, at a time when there
mere many inferior Governments abroad to send them
to, sonic of which had since disappeared; other
smaller States there were, but more independent then
tt.an they had been since suffered to remain, though
of them were called Imperial Gorntanients—

• ..
Mr. Pitt's Estjmate titeti was £70,&52—a tam which', the bttnefit of any change in the geogra phicsall situation
he deemed sufficient for ilieWhole:tlipiomatic ex-Pell" ..*. :af.119-1- at— tettitttx which had occUired since, tat period.
dlture. In 1804, after Mr; Pitt had. intolved the ; .
Butovhateirerinigh Tti t be thette or the ge4raphical
. country in all the cdnsequences. of the revorulioriary position,; the historical argument would Carry the
war, he. had estimated foe the !peace expenditure of Noble Earl but a small way in suitilihing the tieces-
diplomacy, a sum Of rl,ll,oo6—that was his final I sity of •theesent large expenditure; for when. did
calculation. They then Came to the Noble Earl's Switzerland
stand in -more a elevated situation, or
point—the year 1816, WhiCh he was so ready to Com- one more imposing in the eyes of England, than in
pare with all preceding .of Years ; and what was that the early past!
the last century, when the larger
estimate? Why, after discharging &oils it' all pep- States in the world were conflicting between Protest-
sions, it amounted to a direct and actual expenditure ant and Catholic interests ; and not, as now, runnin
of £174,000, for a service which Mr. Pitt, in 17b6, a race of legitimacy, some of them struggling whic'E
deemed adequately paid with £70,852; and in 1804, shall be the_ more servile adulators of power against
had estimated for a peace establishment at £112,000. the friends of freedom and independence. At the
And yet 1816 was the year when, according to the period to which'he alluded, Switzerland wis lOoked
Noble Earl, the principles of economy were directly upon with peculiar interest by England--thither she
and properly applied. " Oh, but," say the Minis- sent her children for a Protestant education, and to
ters, ~ if expenses increase, salaries must augment Savoy, that neighbouring. State, whose interests
in proportion ; and where you sent a Minister of had been so sacrificed by the present Administration.
the first class, it would be unbecoming for us to When all these important events were passing in
send one of inferior quality."—(Hear, hear, hear).— Europe, the British Envoy in Sivitzerland maintained
This was the way in which some Gentlemen and his country's influence upon a salary of £250 a-year.
Noble Lords were always found to talk in smooth lii 1793, when Switzerland withstood, as a neutral
terms of their immediate predecessors, when places country, the political shocks which convulsed her
were to be considered ; and in this manner was a per- great neighbours, Mr. Pitt, thinking justly that Swit-
petual augmentation of expense to be affixed upon zerland was a position which required greater atten-
the country. This was the way in which a succession tion, appointed an Envoy with a salary of £l,OOO a
of appointments was carried on, and the list of pen- year, and at that sum it remained until the peace;
sions swollen by the wars and services in which the and then, when all the necessity for extreme attention
individuals had been engaged. The administration on the part of the mission began to decline, then, and
of Mr. Pitt, in 1786, had prophesied (for Ministers' not till then, was the salary augmented to something
,had a knack of prophesying) that the pensions given like its present amount. Passing on to Germany
in war would be so far available in time of peace as (the geography of which remained, he supposed,
toto in reduction of salary, when the possessors be- much the same as before), he was astonished at
came 'again re-appointed to diplomatic functions. the monstrous increase which there presented itself
Well had it been for Mr. Pitt's fair fame, and for his According. tp Mr. Pitt's estimate, there were six Mis-
country's best interests, had he devoted himself to sions appropriated for the Germanic Empire : there
the pursuit of these plans of retrenchment and eco- were now seven, although the smaller States, for
'tansy, instead of embarking in a ruinous war.. But which the majority of the former six were Wante4,
Mr. INtt, in 1786, estimated his diplomatic pensions had been lately swallowed up by the larger, and had
at a sum not exceeding £8,970 a-year—they were now therefore, unfortunately ler their own liberties !and
increased to £52,000 a-year. In 1804 the increase the character of Europe, ceased to uphold Courts in-
was to £27,41* So that the augmentation of salary terchanging missions. He had no objection to
.the
from 1786 to 1816 was nearly 150 per cent. and the preservation of that connection with foreign States,,
rate of pensions nearly £350 per cent. Was that through the medium of diplomatists, whatever might
such an account of expenditure as the country had be the changes through which these States had passed,
a right to look to in its present circumstances?— and that the rank of the Ambassador should ascendl
Something had been said on the subject of rates of a step with the title of the Potentate; but he saw no
exchange affecting foreign Ambassadors, and it had reason why this country should be called upon to pay
been truly observed, that however the price of pro- an enormous accession of 'salary to missions, because
visions may stand, the rate of exchange ought not some little petty Prince'er Margrave became an Elec-
to impose a loss upon the income of the Ambassador. tor or a King, and grasped at the adjoining territory
He fully concurred in that opinion ; and that the fo- of his feebler neighbour. These personages might
reign representative of the Government ought not to call themselves Kings, or Emperors, or Great Moguls,
suffer (as he must at one time) from the operations of for anything he cared, provided the People of Eng-
that fraudulent currency which, to the disgrace of land were not to be additionally taxed as the conse-
Ministers and their own injury and that of their im- quence of such mutations. It was of that which he
mediate successors, every man was for so long a period felt entitled to complain—it was rf an• expenditure.
exposed to, who had to derive his sources of income which in one head of . its items was increased from
from a country exposed to'such fluctuations from the £16,555 to £41,206. The Noble Earl was never at
rates of foreign exchange. The.last regulation had a loss for reasons when it served his purpose to give
most properly and justly, protected an Ambassador them ; and that circumstance rendered his silence re-
from the losses attendant upon the rates of exchange; garding the augmentation of the allowances to our
but the nominal amount of his emoluments, so in- missions in Germany the more extraordinary, especi-
creased as to Cover that fluctuation, • Was still left as ally as. he had givenabundant reasous for the augmen-
the permanent scale athich Was to govern the re- tation of the allowance to the mission in Switzerland.
duced allowances in. situations not exposed to the de- He (Lord Holland) did not altogether coincide with
ductions which had led to Use last advance of the full his Noble rriend (Lord King) in his opinion as to the
salary. Mr. Hamilton, in his letter to Lord Casile- propriety of an Envoy at the Court of. the Nether-
reaglis in-liils, very propetly_ observed, that it was lands, though he felt most strongly that the political
thought fairer an Ambassador shopld. knOw. the full arrangement which connected the,Netherlands with
amount of liis.salary, available for his mission, and the United Provinces was directly at variance with
that the losses by exchange-in transacting the remit- all those principles which had for ages governed the'
tances ought-to fall on the country. But still what policy of Great Britain in her relations with Holland ;
he (Lord Holland) meant to allude to. was, that the principles! which were sanctioned by the concurrent
salaries still remainedon that scale to which they were authority of some of the most enlightened statesmen
raised when exposed to these contingent losses, and that that ever lived—he meant Sir Wm. Temple, De Witt,
the same scale was applied to cases free from fluctua- King William HI. and even Prince Eugeee. He should
tion. He now came to what the Noble Earl had been not trespass on the time of their Lordships by entering
urging respecting thethanges of circumstances, which into the details of the estimates as they affected the et-
he thought the country must ever watch with care. pense of such a mission. He loathed that species of
The Noble Earl had asked, " Is it fair, after you have inquiry which brought into discussion every hundred
had an Ambassador in one place and in another, now pounds given to Gentlemen employed in the service
to send an Envoy to the same Court, and particularly of the Public abroad and at home. Indeed his indig-
so when that Court sends you here an expensive Di- nation against the present Ministers of the Crown was
plomatic Establishment?" The Noble Earl pressed aroused by the very reflection that such a disgusting
that strain of reasoning as far as he could press it inquisition was rendered necessary by their conduct.
upon the point of honour and dignity ; but when he It was owing to the lavish expenditure which they
came to those cases, where, instead of continuing the created, and to the fraudulent manner by which they
old class of Ministers, there had been, it would seem, sustained that expenditure, that the country, suffering
an enormous augmentation not only of rank, but ex- under the effects of Ministerial extravagance, was
penditure, employed in such branches of the service; bound, unhappily, to look to every shilling that was
and when the Noble Earl extended his sphere of in- dealt out. But if circumstances rendered the aug-
quiry to Switzerland, there, for a moment, he was mentation of any one diplomatic appointment eipe-
rather at a stand ; lie touched a little upon the recent dient, it did not follow that such an augmentation
history of the Swiss Cantons, and, beating about the was to establish a precedent for augmentation at other
bush for an argument, at length he fixed upon their Courts to which no such circumstances could apply.
geographical position on the map of Europe. "Look There might exist very proper reasons for increasing
at Switzerland," said the Noble Earl, " standing be- the allowances of Sir Charles Stuart, of whom iewas
tween Germany and Italy, one of the keys of Europe, •impossible, from a consideration of a life passed in
a post where the principal:Powers of the Continent the public service with ability and honour, to speak
have always struggled to maintain an influence; too highly, which could not furnish a precedent to
and was Englaod alone to refrain from putting in increase the appointments of other missions. He
her claim for a fair understanding with the people?" would not'say that the mere circumstance of a coun-
His (Lord Holland's) reply was, certainly not ; but try being a great resort of British travellers furnished
the only consideration with him was, why £2lO or a mason for the appointment of an Ambysador or
£250 had, for years, been deemed sufficient for a Envoy Extraordinary ; but he was ready )6 acknow-
British resident in Switzerland, and why now, for the ledge, that if the public service rendered suck a mis-
same purpose, £4,900 or £5,300 (from the accounts sion expedient, the circumstance of the country, to
he knew not which) was deemed indispensable. The which such a diplomatic character was sent, being
Noble Earl had informed them that all the persons frequented by a great number of British visitors, was
employed in foreign diplomacy, had followed the re- a very strong ground for granting allowances by
gular order of succession from the smallest to the which he should be enabled to do credit and justice
highest missions, and he had enlarged upon the belie- to the-country that he represented. It was upon such
fits • arising out of such a practice. But there was grounds that he should rather augment the salary of '
an end, it now seemed, of that practical series of in- our Ambassador at Paris than dimiiiish it; but, While
struction, for where were the minor offices? The he felt that inclination, he would not extend it to
changes which they were called upon to watch, had I
other embassies differently circumstanced ; still less
erased out of the vocabulary of the Secretary of would lie apply it to an increase of salary to the Vii.:
State the very names of these lower offices of diplo• rious members of such establishments, for it was
1
macy, which were rewarded at the rate of £2.50 a evident, that in every augmentation granted to the
year. Where, now, was a Secretary of .Legation, Envoy, there was always to be found a correspond-I
heard of ? It was true, indeed, they had convertediing increase to Secretaries of Legation, and, indeed, i
Electors into Kings, and petty Princes into Potentates to' every person employed in the establishment
—they had nothing to do with such paltry beings as One word as to the pensions: the Noble Earl (Liver-
Republicans or Commoners—they were engaged in pool) had statedi that fourteen out of the eighteen
pursuing higher things, and it was therefore they had persons now employed in the diplomatic service of
abandoned the old custom of having inferior officers, the country had passed .through the different grada-
which was found to answer in the time of Sir Robert tions of that service, from the lowest situation to the
Walpole, and to answer, lie believed, with more elevated rank which they now filled. lie most be
honour for the country, and advantage to foreign allowed to say, that a rapid progression was a devia-
States, than was lately observable under the auspices lion from the principles which had in the best times
of higher titles, and what was termed a regenerated influenced the Government of this country. It was
system. . But to return to Switzerland. Until the not the practice to elevate those individuals who had
year 1793, the expense of the Swiss mission was passed the lower gradations to appointments of Am-
£23o a-year. Ile was ready to give the Noble Earl bassadurs. These-appointments were reserved under

. . . , ;. •
• " • 'of the ' 10.1 • • i' I ' fat Min id. giiiii
_pigmies .pu lc re idiom
fortune and rank in the cOnntry: . But thbitgli he
men who had deioted theineelvii to that bianeh of
the public service were not raised to the iiiitit iisien:
did cmhaisiei, they rose stirely, thoiigh Ana* to the
eituatiod, of Envoy Extraordinary. •He.Cotild speak
With i- degree of Confidence on Abet subjett: indeed;
were it postible to placethese Estiniates beibre men
who passed through the gradations of diploinacy
aniituteYhyseatirrpsiiseiBd°, he was confident they would feel
first, at the Sturri4e of Envoys' Ex:
-traordinary; and next, greeter surprise at theeery%
short time in which they reached that elevation;
They had increased considerably since the peace;
and certainly, if ever there was a time when a de.;
decrease on the pensiOrts might have been etpette4
it was whed so many new Codrts were open._
They had been doubled; howeVer, between the years
1804 and 1816. The whole amount of diplomatic
salaries was at present £174,000, While the pensions
amounted to L 52.000 eiclusiiely of other pensions;
which were brought forward in another shape, sub-;
ject to what was called the vigilant controul of Par-
liament, and from which the Civil List was exone-
rated. It was most extraordinary to hear the Noble
Earl (Liverpool) indulge with such self-complacency
on'the economy of such an arrangement; He (Lord
Holland) recollected that On a former occasion he had
' an argumentative contest with the Noble Earl as td
the great difference that' xisted between the civil ex-.
penditure Of this country and the United States of
America. In referring to the United States; he did
not mean to be understood as recommending that
Great Britain was bound to assimilate her practite td
that of America, although he could never tuttscribi
to the doctrine that economy.in expenditure was a de.;
rogation from the real. splendour and true character
of any kingdom. It was most true that the relations
of Great Britain with the world were very different
from that of the United States of America; but
taking as he did the year 1815, a year of ex
traordinary expenses to America, when she `wes at
peace with all the world, and had negotiated a iecond
Treaty of Peace with this country; yet taking -Ame-
rica in her relations with the whole world, and Great
Britain in her relations as to Germany alottein that
year, it would be found that the mission- of,Lord
Castlereagh to Vienna, amounting as it did,io 41 or
£42,000, exceeded by C 2,000 the whole. of the diplo.-
matic expense ofA merica with every part of the world.
Would any Noble Lord on the opposite side—would
the Noble Earl himself—would any of those
.indivi;.
duals who had been employed in diplomatic duties-,-;
he would appeal to a Noble Friend, 'did he see hire
in his place, he meant Lord Sr. Helen's, and whose
experience and authority were unquestioned, ;would
they say, that they ever found iu their diplomatic or
public intercourse, an American Minister who was
not fully adequate to the duties of his trust, whether
in regard to intelligence, ability,knowiedge, and zeal
for the interests of his country ? He did not say that
was a reason why we should cut down our esta-
blishments to the system of America, but it was an
argument against that extravagant augmentitiori
which had led to an excess of 150 per cent. in 'elation
to our own system of 1801., .and was five-fold mord
than the diplomatic expenditure of the United States
of America. Their Lordships would, however, carry
back their recollection to the time in which these
estimates were introduced, and to those feelings of
delusion under which that system of extravagance
found its way. It was at that period when the Noble
Secretary for Foreign Affairs had just returned.from
, the Congress of Vienna, daubed over with the adula-
tion and the mouth-honour of all the selfish and the
servile of the Continent. When he was the pre-
cursor of the Royal Visitors, in whose professions of
honour and of freedom this country was at that mo-
ment unhappily disposed to place a liberal confidence.
It was at such a time, when not a word was heard of
the natural evils resulting from the transition of war
to peace; when we never heard of the miseries of
abundance ; when not a word escaped the lips of
those Ministers, as to all theimaginary causes w;;:..11
they were now so fertile in providing fa,' the growth
of natural calamities, which were the natural results
of their own extravagance and misgovernment. It
was when they were thos.triumphant
.and exulting in
their °influence over the Powers of *the Continent,
fancyin., themselves, a, it were, .the dords. of •the

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human kind, that these estimates were sanctioned—.
(Hear, hear).,ltteuripcied him of the 4ptession 'of a
foreign friend (M, CaYonne), whose name he did not
quote as an authority, that it was." une iconomie large:'
What, I ask (said theNOle Lord), have we purchased
at this monstrous expense? 16fluence on the Conti-
nent of Europe? I deny it. Is there a man out of
Parliament who believes in the existence of such an
influence? Will any Al.inister of the Crown take cre-
dit for such an influence? If there be such a man or
such a Minister, let him take shame to himself for
the subjugation of Italy—for the Unjustifiable aggres-
sions on the independetiee of ,Naples and Sardinia.--
Let him take Shame to himself for the unprincipled
deviation from allthokg. priicip!es to which the
stronger Governments9lthiConAhkent pledged them-
selVes at Vienna. If.. 4 ',l3irik N"kr.st y Roisessed
that lane*, : they are ihe,. efEw3;l9 at violation
of treaties which has laid lialut ga op,. Ciii Austria
—which has either ex ilejk.s hyrw:Vii-Ofte dungeons
of Vienna the lights and ornantetils,j4et&espective
countries, men whosepnly "lime was to seek the ho-
nour, the happiness; and iliefteedons of their fellow.i
citizens--Which allowed' "the 'old i'irtl'tespected ally
of this country, the King of Satdinia, to be bearded
in his kingdom by an Austrian forco—which allowed
such an insult as the transfer of the• keys of his
fortresses into the hands. .of • his vindictive and
•iirvetcrate enemy !• —.Mew., hear,. hear 1).--.
With all these recollections before us, 1% ha, influence,
I ask, my Lcird, has Great .Ilritaiti ? i'he N,ible Se-
cretary tor Foreign Affair; (Lard (:Astltteai_;ll), it is
true, had, on the invasion of Naples, attdree...l a Cir-
cular to- the Continental Courts ;• and, 4fi Illt as he
1 was enabled to give an intelligible esp,swisan of his
views, it was a reptohation of that, aggritttiiPit• The
result has proved either that that reistasent.arioa was
a mere pretence, calculated to throw dust is the eyes
of Parliament and of the country, or that British in-
fluence was lost—( Hear, hear). The noble ral I op-
posite, and myself, have had twice a discussion on
the debt dtie by Austria to this country, and ab to the
swindling manner in which she endeavours to avoid
that Just payment. Ile then stated, that every engine
was at work to obtain that repayment. I have In-
deed, within three tew days, seen in the ilublie pug.

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