Star.
London, England, 1823-04-18 00:00:00

FRIDAY, APRIL 18, 1523.

PAR LIA 111ENTA R Y PROCEEDINGS.

HOUSE OF LORDS, APRIL 17.
Petitions were presented against the Catholic Claims from the
Clergy of the West and East Riding of the County of York, and
from the Clergy of Litchfield, Gloucester, and Sarum, and one
from the County of Kilkenny, in favour of the Catholic Claims.
The Marquis of LA NSDOWN presented a Petition from
Arran, and from the Western Islands orScodand, praying for a
Duty on Barilla.

FRANCE AND SPAIN.
Lord KING stated, that from the Papers before
the House, it appeared that the British Governinent
had been duped in a most extraordinary manner.—
The Duke of Wellington- had been ctoped, first at
Paris, and then at Verona. It appeared that the 13ri.
tish Ministers had been completely hoodwinked by
the flattary of the French Cabinet. He moved for
an account of the expense* of the mission to Patis,
Madrid, and Vienna.

Lord HOLLAND 'wished to ask the Noble Earl,
if there were any stipulations, or articles, by which
the Crowns of France and Spain mere never to be
united in the same person ; also, if there was any
treaty by v. hich Russia was to furnish troops to
France; and, in the third place, in what capacity the
Duke of Wellington appeared at Verona?
Earl GREY considered the question put by' his
Noble Friend relative to a union of the Crowns of
France and Spain as one of great importance ; and
he must say, that the answer of the Noble Earl was
not at all satisfactory. From the answer of the Noble
Earl, it appeared that he merely relied on the con-
struction of treaties, and not on any positive engage-
ment. Ile should now come to .the point on which
he ished for information from the Noble Earl. It
was stated in the dispatch of the Noble Duke, that
his Majesty's Government would not be a party to
any interference that might take place in the affairs
of Spain. This was not satisfactory to him ; the Noble
Duke at the same tune observed, that there had been
no intimation that the affairs of Spain woult! become
a subject of discussion at Verona.
The Earl of LIVERPOOL interposed. He said
his Majesty's Government had not thought that the
affair s of Spain were intended to be made
promi-
nent subject of discussion at the Congress. Ministers,
hmvever, did expect that some notice would be taken
of Spain at the Congress, and the instructions on that
subject, m ith which his Noble Friend proceeded to
Verona, were the very same which had been pre-
viously given to a Noble Friend of his now no more
(M.irquis of Londonderry).
Earl GREY proceeded. In the treaty of Aix-la:
Chai:elle there was an article stating that no discus-
sions respecting other States should take place. He
wanted to know if any communication had been
made to our Government on this important point?—
It had been understood that Turkey was to be the
prominent subject of discussion at the Congress ; this,
however, was not the case, and after it had been an-
nounced by the French Government that the affairs
of Spain were to be the prominent subject of discus-
sion, he wished to know what directions had been
given to the Duke of Wellington on that question,
and on what ground he was authorised to. appear as
the Plenipotentiary from our Government? He wished
then to know from the Noble Earl whether he could
produce a statement of what had passed at the con-
, fe.rence, so far as related to the designs of the French
against Spain? To strew that there had been indica-
tions of such a design on the part of France, there
was a reference to a dispatch of the 17th May, 1820,
in nhich an opinion was held out, that an interference
in the concerns of Spain would be justifiable. He
wished to know if the Noble Earl would have any
objection to produce that document ? He understood
that representations had been made to the French
Government on the subject of interference ; but he
could not find in the correspondence anything like a
direct condemnation of such interference. Here the
Noble Earl quoted passages from the Duke of Welling-
' unit; dispatches, to shew that the Duke of Wellington
had made no such representation to France, as the cha-
!racter and honour of his country required him to do.
On . the whole, he must say, that the Noble Duke had
not consulted the honour and character of his country.',,
The other point on which he asked for information
was this :—The Noble Earl statedthat he had always
received the most amicable assurances from France;
but so far from any assurances being made by the
Frencfi Government, he found in every dispatch a'
direct avowal of the Monarchical principle, by which
people in chains and slavery were never to seek relief,
except at the mill of their legitimate rulers. There
was not, in the Papers, any expectation of peace held
out by the French Government ; but the Monarchical
principle was held out in all its odious forms, by the
French Minister, in his dispatch to Mr. Canning. On
the face of the correspondence it was evident that the
Noble Dake was 'completely duped in the course of
the negotiations that had been carried on.
The E irl of LIVERPOOL observed, that if the
Noble Lord had confined himself to a mere motion
for papers, he (Lord Liverpool) would be able to pro-
duce
them in less than twenty-four hours, if such
Papers did exist. But instead of that, the, Noble Lard
made a speech which embraced a &reat part of the
question the House was to discuss on a future day.
1 Therefore lie felt himself in a state of embarrassment,

because be could not let the Noble Lord's statements
go forth without some observation. He must say,
that he.ilever heard a more unfair representation of
the conduct of his Noble Friend during the neg_ocia-
tions, than that which was just made by the Noble
Lord. Nu mystery bad been observed by his Ma-
jesty's Government, either in their conduct or in the
expressioa of their sentiments towards Spain. The
first notice taken of the changes in the Spanish Go-
vernnsent in the month of April 1820, did nut come'
from France, but from Russia. Our negotiator was
blamed for not having made strong remonstrances
at Verona against the interference of France. But at,
that time nothing was said but putting a question re-
specting the recall of the French Minister from Spain.
The point was purely a contingent one, and his Noble

Friend was not called on to go farther than he did;
and the breaking off a diplomatic intercourse, he con-
ten.led, wa, no cause of war. At the time Alluded to,
the interference by force of arms was not mentioned.
He was satisfied that all the information which cool J
be required was contained in the papers before the
House, and that no man could read them N ithout
feeling that everything had been done by Mi,listers
which could be done to prevent the war betweca
France and Spain. Here the Noble Earl read some
documents, to shew that the British Government had
ground to hope, some time ago, that the late nego-
ciations would lead to the preservation of peace be-
tween France and Spain. .As 'to the papers asked for
relative to communications made previous to the
Congress of Verona, he wished to have time to make
an hiqUiry respecting them. There was another
point. It had been the decided opinion of our Go-
vernment, that the Congress of Verona should not
take tip the affairs of Spain at al'. But the strong
case of the Sovereigns was, that the King of Spain
was in a state of duress. The Congress, however,
brokeatis without an engagement that any step should
have been taken with regard to Spain ; therefore there
was no necessity for our Minister to have made any
remonstrance whatever.

Lord HOLLANI) contended that Ministers had
been completely duped in their late transactions. It
was not enough that Ministers should be honest them-
selves, bin that they should have sense enough to
suspect the honesty of others. The Noble Lord then
proceeded to argue the necessity of an express stipu-
lation to prevent the union of France and Spain under
the same Sovereign.
The Duke cf WELLINGTQN read several pas-
sages from his Note to the Alli Ministers, to strew
that he had carried the principle of non-inter Terence
in the internal concerns Gf an independent State still
farther than the State Paper issued in 1820, for hu
had applied it even to the act of animadvetting upon
those internal transactions, whilst the State Paper in
question objected only to an armed interference. He
did not think it possible to employ stronger terms.
Had he known of any, he would undoubtedly have
used them.

Lord ELLENBOROUGH gave notice, that on
Thursday next he should. Laing the subject fully be-
fore the House.

The Marquis of LANSDOWN wished to learn the
cause of the profound ignorance under which the
Duke of Wellington.laboured from the 3)th of Oct< -
bet to the 12th of Nov.ember, and how that ignorance
had been afterwards removed'? lie would be satis-
fied with an answer to-morrow.—Adjourned.
HOUSE. OF COMMONS.

The Order for the Call of the House having been discharged,
the gallery was opened at four o'clock, and the House was then
occupied in receiving Petitions. The confusion caused by the
crawl rushing into tie gallery rendered the proceedings at first.
inaudible.
Mr. DUNDAS presented a Petition from Edinburgh, pray-
ing for certain provisions in the I3iU for altering the Duties on
Scotch Spirits.—Laid on the table.
Mr. WODEHOUSE 4noved for certain Returns of the nnm.
.ber of bushels of Malt upon which Duty bad been paid during
the last year.—Ordered.
Mr. MA RRYATT presented a Petition from the Island sof
Trinidad; complaining of Distress.—Ordered to he printed.
General. GASCOYNE gave notice that un Thursday, the
24th, he should move an Address to the House upon the sub-
ject of Officers upon Half-pay residing in Ireland being paid in;
Irish currency.
Colonel O'NEIL presented a Petition from the Merchants
and Shipowners of Belfast, against the Stranraei Harbour hill.
Ordered to lie on the table, and to be printed.
CATHOLIC PETITIONS.

Petitions were presented against the Catholic Claims, from
the Dean and* Chapter of Peterborough; from the Archtlea-
eonties of Wells, Taunton, and Bath; from the Clergy of the
Cathedral Church of Winchester; from the Corporation of Dub-
lin ; from the City of Oxford ; from the Arehdeaconry of Col-
chester; front the Archdeacoury of Essex ; front the Archclea-
conry of Middlesex; front the Clergy of the Diocese of Glou-
cester; from the Archdakonry and Clergy of Hereford; front
the Archdeaconry of Northumberland ; from the several Parishes
in the City of Bristol; from the Deanery of Carmarthen ; from
the Deanery of Litchfield ; from the Archtleaeonry of Stafford;
from several Parishes in the County of Armagh ; from the
County of Down; from the Archdeacon and Clergy of Coven-
try; from the Mayor and Corporation and Burgessas of Col-
chester ; and from the Inhabitants of Nottingham.
Mr. Secretary PEEL presented a similar Petition from the
Chancellor, Masters, and Scholars of the University of Oxford,
stating their alarm at the Bill about to be introduced to the
House.— The Petition having been read,

. Sir J. NEWPORT expr;ased his satisfaction that this body
had now given credit for honesty of intention to those who op-
posed them upon this question. It was not exactly in the to-
lerant spirit fur which they were remarkable; and the spirit
which they bad usually evinced was anything but consistent
with their former conduct upon the accession of the House of
Hanover to the Throne of thei.: Realms. He was, however,
glad to see this Improvement in the feeling of the tinivcrsity,
and he-hoped it would eventually extend itself to the general
question which the Petition concerned.—The Petition was or-
dered to be printed.
Sir T. LETHBRIDGE rose to present a Petition
which had been placed in his hands from an indivil
dual named Sir Harcourt Lees. He stated that lie
had no acquaintance with the Petitioner, but that the
Petition contained statements which he regretted had
not been before in the possession of the House, since
he understood it to be the intention of a Right Hon.
Gentleman opposite to move that night for leave to
bring in a Bill for removing the
,restrictions tinder
which Roman Catholics were placed by the laws of
this country. It prayed that the House would re-
ject such a Bill, as being dangerous to the peace and
existence of the country. He would not read the
whole of the Petition to the House as it was very
long—( A /ought)—neither )—neither. could he answer for the
truth of the allegations which it contained, because
he was not acquainted with the basis on which some
of them rested. As far, however, as he could under-
stand the conclusions and the prayers of the Petition,
they appeared to him to be very reasonable. It
touched strongly upon the religious part of the ques•
tion, which he conceived to be the essential pirt, and
upon which all the other parts were founded. He
!mew that Hon. Gentlemen who advocated the other
'side of the.question alwitys kept that part of it out of
view;. but this, he, contended, was an unfair way of
discussing it. The Petition stated that a Catholic con-
, :piracy had been entered into in beland to establish

Pi: E :•EVE s PEN v

the Catholic religion. This had been proved by the
confession of persons about to suffer an ignominious
punishment, from the sentence of the law—( Hear ).
This bad been borne out by the Right Hon. the At-
torney-General for Leland in November last, at the
tri. 1 of the Ribbonmen in Ireland, when it was proved
that the object of the conspiracy was to overthrow
the British Constitution, and to murder all the Pro.
11 te,tants. It stated one object of the conspiracy to be
Ito make P•pish Priests the returning officers at elec-
tions—(A burgh).—lle saw nothing like a joke in
this--(l.aughterj—he thouglxit a veryserious matter.
He hoped that this was lint the way that those who
taiked of Reim m were desitous of reforming that
House. The Petition also prayed that the House
•would investigate the inquisitorial acts of the Catho-
lic Monasteries, Nunneries, and Jesuitical Establish-
ments in Ireland. The mourable Baronet expressed
his concurrence in the sentiments contained in the
! Petition, as to the dangerous nature of the Catholic
doctrines. He also agreed with an Honoirrable Mem-
ber who spoke upon the subject the other night, that
no Cabinet ought to allow this to be an open ques-
tion. It was understood that the object of the Go-
vernment of Ireland was conciliation. Was it con-
ciliation to put the lives and properties of the Pro-
testant population in the danger which would result
from a removal of the laws which protected them
against these danger; ? Ile thought the effect.which
this system had already produced was to be seen in
the state in which Ireland now was.
Mr. WHITE stated his belief, that not one alle-
gation of the Petition was founded in truth, He,
could Teak.from his own knowledge of the country,
and of the people of Ireland ; and he only wished
that Honourable Members knew them as well as he
did. The Catholic population of Ireland would not
then he calumniated a.s they were. This was not a
Catholic cause, but the cause of the Empire. He
repeated, that if the Hon. Member knew the parties
who suffered these deprivations, he ssould not have
said what he had done; he would not so cruelly ma-
lign a body of people who discharged their duty to
the Empire as they did.—The Petition was ordered
to be printed.
Similar Pt titions were presented from the town of Newcastle-
under:Lyme, from the Archdraconry of Berko, and from the
Parish of ilat6tll

Mt. COKE presented a Petition, signed by fifty.
five of the Clergy of the Diocese of Norwich, pray-
ing that the Roman Catholics might be relieved from
the disabilities under which they had so long laboured.
The Petition was then lead by the Clerk.
Sir F. BURDETT iose, not only sto express his
satisfaction at a Petition which was so honourable to.
the parties from whom it proceeded, but also to state
his dissatisfaction at the exhibition of this annual
farce of bringing forwayd the question year after year,
sowing the seeds of danger, by reviving and foment.
ing all the oppressive passions, and feelings of -trio.
lated rights, which were connected with its agitation ;.
and that particularly, since they had heard, only two
nights ago, from one who was formerly the eloquent
advocate of the Catholics, now Secretary of State for
Foreign Affairs, that he believed there was no chance
of carrying the question in their favour. Thus it op-.
peared, that after all the exertions he had made its
the cause, he had only selected it as a theme for his
eloquence, as a means of catching a little fleeting po-
pularity. And now the subject was again to to
brought forward to hold tip to the people of Ireland
all their wrongs and injuries,-fainted by the elo-
quence of the Right Honourable Gentleman in the
brightest hues, to be followed by the assurance that
they must have no hope of redress; and this, too,
coming from a Minister of the country. It would•
be far better to tell them at once that all their hopes
were extinguished, and tbat they were never to- ex-,
pect a restoration of their just rights. If the Right
Han. Gentleman had always known that there was,
no chance of success, why did he proceed in. this,
, course ? Why were these unfortunate people so lan. g
to feel the pangs of hope deferred, to end as lane it
depair confirmed ? But the Right Hon. Gentle-man
had said more than that—he had stated it to,. be
his opinion that no Administration could ever. be
found whose Members could be brought to agree
upon this measure, which, as he believed, was abso.a
lutely necessary to the peace and safety of the coun-
try. They had heard from the Right Honourable
Gentleman that he was ready to-give up hisplace, if
by doing that he . could accomplish the object for
which he had so zealously and so eloquently pleaded.
But it appeared to hint that the manner in which he
had taken place was a compromise of that object. But
there had been instances of Administrations who
agreed upon this question—(Hear, hear, fro= Else
Treasury beaches). '1 here was the Administration of
Mr.FoA—(Clice7s of dissent from the Treasury benches).
Undoubtedly there was at leasea majority in the Ca-.
binet at that time iii favour of the question.. They
brought in a measure in its favour--(Hear,' hear).—
They could not cei tainly carry it, because they found
deseiters in a gum ter where the present Government
need not fear it. All the miseries of Ireland had
arisen from the impotence and scandalous injustice of
her Government, and she was now in a state worse
than had ever before been known. The other night
the First Law Officer of that Government was basely
deserted in a case where he had endeavoured to
make the law effective to the best of his judgment
and conscience. And the teason assigned by the
Right Honourable Secretary was, that •he would
not do justice to either party, because he was afraid
of giving a triumph to one of them. He objeoted
altogether to ex qfficio informations; but if there was
ever a case in which circumstances would justify ones
it appeared to be the one in question. With the body
who were concerned in that transaction, the question
of the Catholics was not a matter of religion; it was
not a political consideration which made theni hos-
tile? it was a calculation of arithmetic. They held
all the places and the emoluments of the Govern-
ment, and they were determined not to let in the
larger part of the population to share them. Hem-

•
I