Star.
London, England, 1823-05-17 00:00:00

THE CHIEF BARON O'ORADY.

Mr. WYNN brought up a Report of the Com-
mittee appointed to inquire into the Report presented
by the Commissioners of the Courts of Law in Ireland.
Mr. S. RICE observed that be was glad to find that
the propositions which he had brought forward were
affirmed by the Report. He hoped, however, that
now they had arrived at this point, the Members of
his Majesty's Government would take such steps as
justice required, and not cast upon one individual
the whole trouble of conducting the measure.
Mr. Secretary CANNING said, that if the Hon.
Member intended to affirm the proposition, that
whenever a charge was brought forward by an indi-
vidual Member, and in any degree substantiated, it
then became the duty of the Members of the Etecu-
tive Government to take up the charge and institute
a prosecution, he assumed that which was neither
sanctioned by Parliamentary custom nor principle.—
He had never heard that when Mr. Burke had
brought forward charges against Mr. Hastings, and ,
substantiated some of them, he had thought himself
I entitled to cast upon the Government the further pro-
secution of the affair. He had not heard that when
Mr. Whitbread brought charges against Lord Mel-
ville, he had thought himselt entitled to call upon
the Government to push the matter to trial. If in
those cases such a proceeding had Out been necessary,

upon to act. II& certainly did not, and he hoped that
his colleagues had the same feeling.
Sir J. NEWPORT contended, that as this pro-
ceeding had been caut.ed by a Special Commission
appointed by the Crown, there was a distinction be-
tween this and ordinary cases, and that therefore it
was the business of Government to proceed.
' -Mr. W. WYNN thought this a case in which
the Government Was not at all called upon to inter-
fere. %Vas this the first case which had originated
from a Commission ? No, Lord Melville! impeach-
ment had been conducted in the same manner; but
the individual who originated it had not thought
that a sufficient reason for calling upon the Govern-
ment to take the measure into its own hands.

Mr. ABERCROM BY contended, that as this had
originated in a Commission from the Crown, the Go-
vernment was called on to interfere. He thought
that the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that neither he nor his Colleagues would interfere,
led to the inference that Government would have no-
thing to do with, and would therefore defeat it.
Mr. CANNING rose distinctly to deny the infer-
ence drawn by the Hon. Member. On the contrary,
when the subject was brought forward, he would do
all that he could do ; he would give his constant at-
tendance and unwearied attention. He was in total
ignorance of the merits of the case, but pledged
himself there should be no insinuation of a want
on the part of Government. Every attention should
be paid, but he would not consent that the task of
impeachment should be thrown on the Government.
Mr. IVYNN made some observations on the Com-
mittee which had sat, and asserted that he had given
his constant attendance.

Mr. S. RICE felt it just to state, that nothing could
be more sedulous than the attention which the Right
Hon. Gentleman had paid to the whole proceedings ;
and he felt a perfict reliance upon that Right Hun.
Gentleman conducting himself in the same manner
whenever the case was discussed in the House. For
his own part, he never would retire from the perform-
ance of his duty, although he protested against the
weight of this proceeding being thrown upon himself
Mr. A BERCRONIBY explained.
Mr. CANNING was sorry to trouble the House
again. He was neither for nor against the individual
who was the subject of this inquiry. He cared nothing
for the result, except as far as a general anxiety that
an individUal in so high a station should be able to
justify himself from a degrading charge. He could
only say, that the case, if brought forward, should
receive every attention.

Mr. DErgMAN said, that the charge had not ori-
ginated with his Hon. Fi icad (Mr. Rice). • It had ori-
ginated at a public Board appointed by Royal Com-
mission, and a report had been made before his Hon.
Friend brought the subject forward. He thought
that the declaration of the Right Hon. Gentleman,
that Government would not in any case take up such
a measure was a little premature. The Right Hon.
Gentleman had said that this was not the case of a
removable officer. He said that the officer was re-,

. .
still less was it so in the present instance: If the Mr. HUME.—A Judge was reported to have
case now beforethe Hedte affected aremovableofficer, jured his trust; was it not the duty of his
then he would admit that if a case of corruption was Government to investigate that accusation
made opt against such an officer, it would be incum- thought it was not right to call on any indivil
bent on the Executive Government, as such, to take bring that charge before the House, but it
measures for the removal of that officer. But he duty of the Government to see that the soot
contended that it had never been the custom for an Lice was not thus shamefully polluted.
individual Member to bring forward a charge, and Dr. LUSHINGTON considered this a -
after having pushed that charge to a certain extent, stitutional question.. If gross peculatit
to take it for granted that the Government would vered in a Judge, it was the duty of the
take the business out of the hands of the accuser.— to bring him to punishment, provided it asuid
The Honourable Gentleman knew that there were done without proceeding in this House; but he bt
two coor.es open to him; either to proceed by Ad- means thought that the Glveroment sit(
dress to the Crown, or by impeachment. Either of the investigation in this House. It was
these courses was as open to individual Members as however, that the charge could test bete,
to the Executive Government, and he was sure that lied upon the prudence ot Government to in
the House would see that there were many reasons I Mr. CANNING explained. that the only
why in general cases an impeachment was much bet-; he ventured to express was founded upon the,
ter in any hands than in the hands O Ministers. Ile sumption that the interference of Parliament
therefore told the Hon. Member most distinctly, that meet the case of the I lon. Member for Limerick
in this case mo Member of the Government felt called I The Report was ordered to be printed.

MESSAGE FROM THE I.,!RDS.
A Message from the Lords announced that their
had agreed to Oil Irish Mi:itia Reduction Bill and see,
vate rills, without any-amendments.
ittlstl TITHES COMMUTATION SILL
Mr. GOULBURN moved that the Order of
Day for the second reading of the Irish Tithes'
mutation Bill should be then read.
The Order was accordingly read, and on the motion
SPICA Kt% should leave the Chair,
Mr. V. FITZGE It A L 1) had objections to di(
principle of this Bill. While it professed to relit
the People, he believed it would allow the Clergy
call for an equivalent for Tithes which they had -
claimed nor sought for. The Bill previded for thel
appointment of Commissioners to •alue Tithe -

Prol
perry, who were to be appointed by vestries and the
incumbents jointly. If the incumbent, therefore, was
dissatisfied with what he was to receive, he had no.
thing to do but to appoint a Commissioner on hit
part, and then this claw must be brought into ope.
ration. In fact, the Bill would be made a dead let.
ter. He deprecated the Tithe on potatoes, on whicia
nine tenths of the population subsisted. In Munster
it had long prevailed to a great extent, but he be-
lieved it had never been-exacted in Connaught till
recently. In Ulster the Tithe on potatoes hadrarely
been taken, and never in the diocese of Armagh. If
this Bill gave rise to the demand on the part of the
Clergy of Tithes they had never claimed since the
Reformation, he had a principle on which he had a
right to oppose the Speaker's. leaving the Chair. He
should not, however, object to the proceeding on the
Bill, if he were assured that it would not be acted
upon for this yeAr. He would warn them that this
was not a Bill which they could amend as they could

a Grand Jury Presentment Act: besides, he believed
that this Bill would triple, and in some cases quadru-
ple, the incomes of the Clergy, and therefore it would
produce much discontent among their redundant and
unemployed population. He implored the House to
pause before it adopted a measure which the Clergy
protested against; and which would neither relieve
nor satisfy the People.
Mr. GOULBURN was sorry to find himself op.
posed by his Right Hon. Friend. If he were antioes
to obtain a certain degree of popularity, he would
abandon that part of the Bill which the Clergy ob-
jected to. But he felt it his 'duty to look to higher
motives, and to propose measures which he knew be
could defend ; at the same time he was aware of the
great difficulties with which this question was
rounded. He only called on the House to consider
whether this was not a measure which was as little

objectionable as any that could be proposed, and
whether the objectionable parts could not be amended
in the Committee. It was his wish to have parsed
this Bill pro forma through the Committee, and then
to have been published as amended ; but this was op-
posed by others. In England tythes fall on the man
of property ; in Ireland they fall on the lowest pea-
sant. The great evil of the tythe system in Ireland
arose from its often bringing the clergyman in im-
mediate contact with the cultivator of the soil. He

movable by an address from that House. His Ma- would ask the House if the Bill before them would •-
jesty's Ministers ought, therefore, to take upon them- not remove much of the litigation that had prevailed!
selves the responsibility ; they ought to consider the Some individual for the clergyman, was to settle with
case, and if anything required inquiry, it ought to be one on the part of the parish, the modus of the tythes.
through the medium of the Ministers of the Crown. He at the same time was not insensible of the diffi-
He would ask, was it right for the leading Minister in culty of the task ; but he trusted it would not be ins-
that House to state that in any case the Government possible to create a similar class of men as in this
would not take part in such an address? country ; and the present appeared to him one of the
Mr. CANNING said, that of course when lie spoke best opportunities for that purpose. Though the qua-
of a removable officer, he meant removable at the lification for a vestry-man was too high in the Bill,
power of the Crown.—Mr. DENMAN explained. yet that might be amended in the Committee, and he •
Mr. PEEL would ask whether, if the Honourable would be the first to listen to any hints that might '
Member for Limerick thought the case a clear one, improve the Bill. He still adhered to the opinion,
he would have any objection to proceed ? The Ho- that the right of property, whether civil or ecdesias-
nourable Member felt that there were difficulties in tical, was not to be invaded ; as it was impossible to
the case, and therefore he wished to throw them upon know where such an invasion might stop. He did
the Government. He thought that it was a danger- not mean that, a compulsory power should be the
ous principle to establish, that the Government foundation of the Bill. But a certain degree of com-
should always take up such proceedings. It was pulsory power was netlssary, as a check to thosewhe
competent to any Member to institute an impeach- were discussing the claims. At the same time he was
ment. But when an Honourable Member had ac- willing to adopt an intermediate course, between
tually commenced the proceeding, upon what ground voluntary agreement and a compulsory power. He
could he now deviate from the execution of a duty had struck out of the Bill that part that gave so much
which he had in the first instance taken upon himself? power to the Parish Vestry, as he found it would not
Mr. S. RICE protested against the supposition that have answered the end intended. If he had forboine
his opinion had been changed on a consideration of to touch upon many of the topics inthe speech of his
the case.— Mr. Peet explained. Right Hon. Friend, it was from his anxiety that the
Mr. R. SMITH thought it was perfectly right that Bill should ga into the Committee, where alone its
Ministers, as such, should not take part in impeach- merits and defects could be properly appreciated.
meats. But before they came to that point, it was Mr. WETHERELL objected to the principle of
the duty of Ministers to examine whether there were the Bill, because it deprived the Clergy of their cha-
not grounds for other proceedings. His notion was, ratter of Freeholders, and gave them a character of
that there was another mode of entering into thews- pensioners on the State, levying their pensions by a
tion. The Judges held their offices by patent granted machinery like that of the Poor-rate in England.—
" guamdiu se b gesserint." That implied, that for The proposition in the Bill was entirely new, as Mr.
any malversation in office thei e was a mode of calling Pitt, who thought of the commutation of tithes, newel
the patent in question, and trying whether it had not thought of depriving the Clergyman of his territorial
been forfeited. The mode he alluded to was by a character. Mr. Pitt proposed to give him, the Cler-
writ of scire facias. He did not recollect any instance gyman, land instead of tithes. It was an objection to
in which the patent of a Judge had been thus re-1 this Bill also, that while it professed to be a measure
pealed ; but by analogy he contended that it might of conciliation, it forced the parties, noleas voices, to
be. He found, however, by a memorandum in the, a commutation. They were brought to the gusto/a
Reports of Coke; that John Wallcrner, a learned and i in rincu/is, and 'subjected to the brutunt fulmee of the
courageous man, being Chief Baron by patent "qualm- Government. He thought some harmonising, con •
diu se bent gesserint; who, on being attempted to be ciliatory, and intermediate measures were practicable;
removed from that office, had declared that he could but, at any rate, in a case in which there werweee'a
nor quit his place until cause had been strewn by scire tigia nulla retrorston, they should not come to a cosk,4-
farina. The Hon.*Member thought that this was a' elusion hastily—t.he Bill should be printed, and 'he --
precedent which might be followed on this occasion. I persed throughout Ireland. Ile did not think the 2.
Mr. WETHERELL spoke 'against the .docti ine curity offered to the. Clergyman, who had now an
that Government was bound to take up nivatrures of absolute claim in rem, was adequate to that which he
the kind now before the House. rciinquished. If the Churchwardens refused to I sy,

A to bare
his Mare+
:usation?
Kit it vots
e source of
is iw,
a great pi
Lion Was due,
Govetimeit
d ir could
• ; but he by
no
houldorigieme
vas imposibia
,le, and here.
o investigatem
le only op
anii the sole es.
rliarnent coal
Limerick
cd.
it their lieedship
and several
El LL.
Order of the
h Tithes Com.
e motion that the
Is to the whole
ssed to relieve
the Clergy to
they had never