Star.
London, England, 1822-03-12 00:00:00

ral others were tinder the scrutiny of the Board of
Irish Commission, which having seen the nature of i
the corresponding' department in England were corn-i
paean to effect that desirable assimilation and uni-
formity of system so eminently advantageous. Go-
vernment had not thought itself called upon by the ,
voice of Parliament to invade domestic comfort and;
happiness with too raugh a hand, by making any
considerable reductions of salary in the public ser-
vants. It had been argued, indeed, that in what they
had done already in that way, they had gone beyond
the bounds of justice. It was contended, that a clerk
had a right of property in his situation and salary,
which could not be infringed. He (the Chancellor
of the Exchequer) never would admit such a princi-
ple to such an extent. He never would agree that
Government, who had the power to dismiss, bad, not
the power to controul. But he admitted that, like
all other prerogatives, it might be tyrannically exer-
cised. He hoped, however, that it would be found
that they had exercised the power which had been
left to their discretion, their mercy, and their justice,
in due temperance, although not without .a portion
of rigour, which the necessity they were under im-
posed upon them as a painful duty. In the discharge
of it, they had studied as much as possible to engage
the generous feelings of the individuals employed in
the public service, on the side of their duty. The duty
of the bead of an office was not only to see that the
public duty was performed, but that the best ability
of the individual was employed in its service, in
order to ensure a zealous discharge of his functions.
He hoped he had succeeded in giving such a sketch
of the revision which had been made, as to give the
House a competent idea of its nature. Of Ireland
he should only say that a revision of the same kind
was going on. They were not in the same state of
forwardness, but he hoped it would not be long before
he should be able to lay the returns on the table of the
House. It had been already stated to the House
that there was another species of reduction—a reduc-
tion of the higher departments of the State. The
fact was, that it was a long time since the emolu-
ments of these situations had been increased. He
found by a reference to a warrant issued by Charles
the Second, that even in his time these Officers were
better paid than now. This would have justified their
not being touched ; but his Majesty's Government
felt that at a time when they were called upon toes-
ercise retrenchment upon the lowest offices and situ-
ations, they must not shrink from approaching even
the highest. They felt this the more strongly im-
pressed upon them, from the example which had been
set from the highest quarter—( Hear). He had his
Majesty's command to acquaint the House, that his
Majesty had given directions for reductions to be made
to the extent of 10 per cent. in those departments of
his Majesty's Household which contributed mote im-
mediately to his personal comfort—(Hear, hear).—
The departments he particularly adverted to were
the Privy Purse, the Lord Chamberlain's, the Lord
High Steward's, the Master of the Horse, and others;
and as those departments comprehended an expen-
diture of 300,0001. the remission of burthens to the
nation would be 30,0001.—(Hear, hear).—In his pa-
ternal care, he had taken more from himself than
from his servants—(Hear, hear).--In the reductions
of the salaries of his Majesty's Ministers, it was not
so heavily felt, as they had all private fortunes be-
sides their official incomes. But his Majesty had no-
thing beyond his Civil List—(Hear, hear).—This do-
nation was due to his Majesty's own especial com-
mands and paternal feelings--(Hear, hear)—for he
must say, that, as a faithful servant of the Crown, he
could not have advised a further reduction. The
House had taken the wise precaution to save itself
from the-pain and disgrace of having the Civil List
to canvass. In so doing, the House had acted with not
less wisdom than liberality. In saving the Monarch
from the necessity of making such appeals as had
heretofore been of no unfrequent occurrence, they
saved the country from that, than which nothing
could be more injurious to its best interests. It was
proposed that the King should be enabled, by an
Order in Council, to reduce by ten per cent. all sala-
ries of 5001. per annum and upwards—(Hear).—
Acting on this principle, of course all the principal
servants of the Crown would be comprehended by
the regulation ; which would include the Lord Chan-
cellor, the Cabinet Ministers, and all the Political
Officers of the State in England or Ireland would be
subject to it. He had further to announce, that this
regulation was to continue in force for the ensuing
five years. This stated, he hoped Ministers would
no snore be accused of acting with injustice, by re-
ducing the salaries of clerks and others, who were
net high in office, while their own were spared.—
Though this accusation had often been urged, they
had never thought it worth contradicting, convinced
that the effect which it might produce for a time
would not fail to be dissipated when the truth came
to be known. He would now endeavour to bring into
one point of view the effect of the several arrange-
ments which his Majesty's Government had felt them-
selves called upon to make. He would first state
what would be their effect in the present year, and
then describe that which was calculated upon when
the whole of the plan which he had now opened to
the House should have been carried into complete
execution. The immediate effect of the superannu-
ation arrangements, by which the country would pay
five instead of ten per cent. would give a saving of
12,0001. The value of the offices which it affected
being about 200,0001. or rather more, would make
the saving amount to what be had stated. On the sa-
laries connected with the revenue, there was upon the
whole a saving of four per cent. Though a great
number of the salaries, being low, paid but two and
a half per cent., taking into consideration the higher
rate paid by others, he felt justified in stating the'
total diminutions to be equal to four per cent.—
Hence would result a saving to the amount of 66,0001.
This was an immediate reduction of expense already
in opetation from the 6th January last. The saving
on the offices not connected with the revenue, he,
took at 15,0001. he might, perhaps, be justified in'
taking them at 20,0001. but he preferred naming
15,0001. wishing rather to be under than over the
mark. Taking these at 15,0001. the next saving
was to be found in the per tentage taken from the
salaries of the principal Officers of State, and this
he would take at 22,0001. that sum having been
saved to the State by a similar reduction made in
1827. Adding to these for the deductions made
from the Household Officers and the Civil List,
WOOL and to that sum his Majesty's gracious dom.

of so
superannuation:, irnottroornsa, andrea ex-
clusivetilpt:lcli4agetxhpeensasevingsin Ireland, the final result would be a permanent
saving of 300,0001. and a temporary saving of
75,00 a for five years,
making a total reduction,
under the circumstances he had-mentioned, and for
period How far this h e
hmadighntamsaetdis,fyatmhoeuHntoinogsetohe37csoo,
theHo
say, but when the estimates came before them, they
could not
.
would have an opportunity of going into the details.
The accounts would shortly be given, and then they
would be enabled to form a judgment of what had
been done with respect to every office. In the mean
time he hoped the House would give Ministers credit
for having laboured with diligence and industry to
carry into effect the wishes of Parliament. He
trusted it would be seen that every disposition existed
on the part of Ministers to lessen the burdens of the
People. The reductions now to be effected it should
be remembered were proposed to be made on an esta-
blishment, the whole amount of which exceeded not
four millions. When Hon. Gentlemen talked of the
immense savings which might be made, they some-
times forgot the amount of the establishments on
which they were to be made. They could not have
more from a thing than the total amount of that
thing. Whether the retrenchments now made had
I been carried far enough, would be the subject of in-
' quire. It might be too much to hope that they would
satisfy the House in every respect; but he trusted it,
would be seen that in every respect they had been
made with fairness, economy. and discretion, with
an anxious wish to render justice to the community,
and a no less anxious desire to act with liberality,
justice, arid the most kindly feeling towards the 'ob-
jects of the proposed reductions. He concluded by
moving a Resolution, embodying the plan opened in
his speech as the basis of a Bill to be brought in.
Mr. BANKES had listened to the greater part of
the speech of his Right Hon. Friend with much sa-
tisfaction, and 'especially to the statement which he
had made of the donation made to his subjects by
the King. He thought the House ought to feel much
gratitude for the gracious manner in which the King
had thus come forward to contribute to those savings
which might afford the Public some relief. With
respect to some of the details of the plan, he was not
sure that they would meet with his support. When so
many of the salaries of public officers had been aug-
mented within the last few years, on account of the
depreciation of money, it was hardly fair to leave
' them in possession of the incomes then given to them
on that account, now that the currency was restored
to the original standard. It was hardly fair to leave
them in possession of the incomes so augmented, sub-
jecting them merely to the per tentage now proposed
to be deducted. To this he must very much demur,
as it appeared to him unreasonable not to do more.
He had objected to some of these grants at the time
they were made, bat many incomes ought to be ;e-
-duced as low as they were twelve or fifteen years ago.
He proceeded at some length to criticise the scale of
remuneration which had been adopted. To him it
did not appear just that officers in the service of the
State should be exempted from those inconveniences
to which all other classes were exposed. He should
like to see laid before the House an account of all
salaries that had been' increased since the year 1810.
This done, it might be proper to reduce them to what
they were at that time, or to reduce part of the in-
crease, and give the remaining part of it to the Su-
perannuated Fund. A pretty general increase of sa•
lades' had taken place between 1810 and 1815.
With this increase it might be proper so to deal, that
if the Superannuation Fund were kept up, the Go-
vernment should be relieved from two-thirds of the
expense, instead of being only saved from half. That
which he suggested he wished merely to apply to the
larger salaries. He would not go down to salaries
below 1001. He wished to give the Right Honour-
able Gentleman every credit for what he had done.
He had a difficult task to perform. He (the Chan-
cellor of the Exchequer) might be right, and he (Mr.
Bankes) might be wrong, but he could not help
stating what had occurred to him on the subject. If
the motion before the House were now pressed, he
should feel obliged to give it a negative. He re-
peated, that the latter part of the Right Honourable
Gentleman's speech had afforded him great pleasure,
and he thought much gratitude due to his Majesty
for the gracious manner in which he had come for-
ward on this occasion, to surrender a portion of his
income for the public benefit.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEaUER said,
nothing was further from him than the wish that this
measure should be carried without previously under-
going the fullest discussion. But the better course
might be to let the Resolution on which he purposed
to found a Bill pass, as he thought this would be the
snore convenient mode of discussing the merits of
the plan. He had no wish but that it should be
looked at in all its bearings, as he would candidly
confess it was his hope that the more it was examined I
the more it would be approved.
Mr. MARRYATT thought the intention of his
Majesty to give up part of his income to the neces-
sides of the State must be contemplated by every
Member of that House with equal satisfaction and
gratitude. He approved of giving a discretionary
power, with respect to the remuneration of Clerks,
to their superiors in office. Without this, merit and
demerit would be equally rewarded—the most stupid
would fare as well as the most intelligent—the most
inactive as well as the most active. The system of
superannuation was so radically bad, and, if he might
be allowed to say it, so liable to abuse, that he thought
it would be much better that they should abolish it
altogether than try to mend it. The Chancellor of
the Exchequer ought to give them all the informa-
tion in his power on this subject. He ought to fur-
nish them with an account of all salaries understhe
Crown, and of all superannuation; which had taken
place since the Act of the 50th of the late King passed,
that the House might be enabled to see at what rate
these superannuations were going on. From informa-
tion given by the Chancellor of the Exchequer on
the 2d of last July, when Returns, consistink of
seventy-two pages, were laid before the House, it

tion to his subjects of $O,OOOl. the total amount will I appeared that the superannuation amounted to
be 168,0001: This was exclusive of Ireland. for CSIB,IIO. But three other articles, not included in
which simoel. or *OOOl. might be added, and that' tnhaetareßett
ournve.
anbacildaisindczacocmharegr
fdorer
shupiseroanbns
the whole Would be very little under 200,0001. Such '
dons of . ueii.rvation-
- Es 0196
was the amount'of the present saving; but, looking TI, 'et d lde-h -
at the future, it would appear that the savings on the - Ilai 016
° " el:, amountedwa
sbeelliPeranplatice. "ok.' - 17.995 Civil offices, exclusive of those connected wish the The third, for Naval Officers . - 1 U 6,77.2
revenue, might be taken at 30,0001. In the revenue These added to • • 315,110
department he '

Made the total
,C 47 1,871
There might be other accounts of a similar nature
that ought to be brought forward. But the Chancel-
lor of the Exchequer made it appear that the super-
aannations amounted to nine and a half, or ten per
cent. on the aggregate amount of salaries. This was
not a fair view of the subject; for, taking contingen-
cies into the account, altogether it appeared to him
that the superannuation charges amounted to no less
'than 24_per cent. Now this had all grown up since
,1810. These superannuations, if thus allowed to creep
on, would in time eat away a large portion of the
revenue, and be found as bad for the country as a
second set of Poor Rates. Some pamphlets which
had been published by the parties affected by the pro.
posed reductions, and circulated among the Members
of that House, loudly complained of the course
which the Right Honourable Gentleman had taken
with respect to the superannuations, and considered
it a hardship that it was not left to their own
prudence to make such provision for their families
as their means might enable them to make—(Neer).
He should be glad to know why such extraordinary
care was to be taken of these clerks, and why they
might not be left as well as others to their own pru-
dence? The interpretation given to the Superannua-
tion Act, he considered to have been very different
from anything intended by Parliament. The word
superannuation carried its meaning with it ; and it
was clear that Parliament had not intended that any
man should be superannuated who was not past ser-
vice. But this was not the case with those who lad
been superannuated of late years under this Bill,
many of whom were young men. After 15 years
service, an individual might claim to be superan-
nuated. A young man coming into office at 15 or
17, after 15 years, might, from • various circum-
stances, de-ire to retire on a pension. The same in- .
terest which got him in was likely to help him out.
He was succeeded by another, who at the expiration
of 15 years took the same course, and was succeeded
in like manner ; so that the country had frequently
to pay at the same time three persons for performing
the duties of one office. It was also to be remarked,
that it often happened that an individual superan-
' nuated in an office, was taken into another situation,
and considered as efficient as any man in the service.
—Such being the inconveniences of the system, be
thought it would be wiser to give it up altogether,
than to attempt to correct the defects of a measure
so liable to abtr e as the Superannuation Act, and
leave the clerks to their own prudence. He would
therefore suggest the propriety of leaving the salaries
as they now stand, and repealing altogether the Act
of the 50th of George the Third.
Mr. HUME agreed entirely with the sentiments of
the Hon. Gentleman who had just sat down, and
whose observations,with respect to the Custom-house,
were extremely important. At the time the Act of
the 53d of the late King was pas.-,ed, the supera•mn-
ations in that department we: e very n.oderate ; but
from that period they increased in a ratio cf about
10,000/. a-year ; and, in the Custom house alone, they
now amounted to upwards of 90,0001. The system
of superannuating various individuals, in quick suc-
cession, was exemplified in a very extraordinary
degree at Plymouth. There was a clergyman in that
town who now received 500/. a-year for preaching to
a few persons, at the very same moment that two in-
dividuals,vvho had successively given up the situation,
were each receiving a superannuation allowance—
( Hear).—He could see nothing in the plan which
called on Gentlemen to congratolate the House or
the country. The Civil List of this country amounted
to 857,0001. and he understood that 55,0001. would
be the total deduction from that expen,e ; and the
'difference between that sum of 35,0001. and '200,0001.
was, it seemed, the total saving the country was to
expect on a gross sum of 4,200,0001. appropriated
for the Civil expenditure, including the collection
of the revenue, and various other items—(Hear).—
If they aided the Civil List of England, Scotland,
and Ireland, it would form a total of 5,300,0001. on
which a saving of 200,0001. (at the rate of about four
per cent.) was to be effected. Now this was not such
a fair and proportionate reduction of expenses as they
had a right to expect. But what was the eventual
reduction to be? He understood it would go to the
extent of 400,0001. But, when they looked to the
enormous increase which had occurred in the amount
of salaries, that saving appeared to be by far too
little. Let the House look, for instance, at the Trea-
sury department. In 1796 the expense of that de-
partment was '20,0001. It had since risen to 47,9001
and it was now to be reduced to the extent of 5,6701.
leaving a net expenditure of forty-two thousand
pounds per annum, the minimum of reduction being
about double the establishment of 1796—(Hear).—
He was glad that the Right Hon. Gentleman had
taken the period of 1796, as the point to which they
ought to approximate in settling their expenditure.
But what sort of an approximation did the Right
Hon. Gentleman make towards the expenditure of
1796, when the minimum expense of the Treasury in
182'2 was to be double that which was found neces-
sary at the former period ? If, in 1813, a Property
Tax of 10 per cent. was levied on persons tilling situa-
tions in the different public offices, what ought now
to be deducted, when they took into consideration the
improved state of the currency ? Were they now to
be content with a deduction of about 4. per cent. from
the public expenditure, when the value of the cur-
rency was so greatly increased? lie should also wish
to know, with what justice they could take from the
junior clerk who received 1251. or 1301. a-year, the
same proportion of salary that they took 11
principal clerk who had 5001. or 60a/. pet:
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQi
plied, that the intention was merely to ref
clerks 10 per cent. for the Public, and .5 pel
the establishment of a fund for their OW/
nuation allowances.
Mr. HUME further observed, that it m%
to deduct 10 per cent. from the small ant
whom he referred, while no more than 10
was to be deducted from Public Officers
6001. and 7001. a-year. Tlie Hoa. Member


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