Star.
London, England, 1831-08-25 00:00:00

. .

inglisb Reform Bill was before the house. He thought it
quite ineonsistent that the number of the members of the
home should be diminished, when the population, wealth,
newt Intel sauce of the• country, were increased, and he
thought the new 03CITINIPI Shol3ld be given to the large
toe as where that increase had taken plum. He should, how..
t.rt r, slot r his motion to the bringing up the report of the
l'ommoitt,
'ree itoute went into the Committee.

The t:li 11M A N saitl the clause to be considered was •
rlesse twenty enr, and read, " be it enacted, that in every
city or borough, every parson of full age, and not subject to
lop :11 tirCapaciry—"
Me. HUNT rose to make the moinn of which he had
Piero notice, that all persons paying sent and lot should be
• to • re for representatives, which was the ease in
tV•s•tri noses. seutliwark, and many other places; and as
asps tr,r ti to pr: re. via the ancient constitution of the
spat. iv, for which purpose he had made a few extracts,
rri t:r he would state to the house. lie wonl.l go hark to
11,e reign of Henry and of John, at which time the po-
fylaiion teas di, Lied into two claseSS, freemen and slaves.
Joe the reign of Edward the Third. every freeman had a
.etc for a representative. and it was enacted that no free-
st an should be derrived of his franchise. The hon. gent.
rid various tit t set s turn early Acts of P.:rliament, to prove
-Rat 1 the people whc. were not vassals possessed the right
of voting tor representative% till the Bth of Henry VI.
...filch limited :he elective franchise to freeholder* of 40s. a
,vt,r, which wrs first disfranchising Act that ever took
!dace in this coan.ry. He was also an advocate for annual
Vehement's, as W is declared to be expedient by the Act of
It IV. It was therefore in per!ect conformity with the
etieient emistiat ion that he advocated universal suffrage and
..actual Parliaments. He now only meant to propose to give the
rran el ise to persons paying scot and lot,as was the case in West-
• hater and many other places. The proposidon brought for-
ward by his3lajesly's m iitisten of giving the vote to 101. house.
troldera,would give the franchise to all persons of that descrip.
lion in the meuopolitan districts; but the case was very
tiffr rent in the country. In Manchester, and the greater part
of the manufacturing towns, the greater part of the work-
men lived in houses of 51. 61. or 71. and they were higher in
comfort than persona holding 101. houses in the metropolis.
Ik was confident the bill in its present state would not give
satisfaction ; but by giving the franchise to all scot and lot
payers, the bill would be simplified, and would give great
satisfaction. To this principle he was confident they must
come at last. Ile was giving up a great deal--as universal
valise was his principle; but he wished to conciliate. The
whole number of male adults was 8..000,000; the hill would
give a constituency of 1.000,000. Was it in the nature of
t bingo that the ()thee 7.000 000 should not be discontented ? If
all scot and lot payers were admitted to vote, ft would give so
touch satisfaction that the people would be content to see,
hew it would work. The bill required that the 101. house.
Golden; should also pay the rates and taxes. He had letters
front all parte of the kingdom, stating that in the vast ma-
joril of cases the landlord paid the taxes of such houses;
ti2trefore the occupiers would, he supposed, be deprived of
thaw volts. He did not suppose that government would
sapport his motion; but he brought it forward on principle.
and wax confidrnt it must, at no distant period, be adopted.
Ile did not think universal suffrage could be adopted at
prracot, and therefore he did not bring it forward; but in
what he now proposed there was a line drawn, recognised by
all returning officers. The hon. gentleman moved, " That
all householders, paying rates and taxes, should have a vote
it: the election of members of Parliament."

Lord ALT HORP said he should not enter into the
question of artivenal suffrage. The present question was
to give the elective franehiae to all payers of soot and lot,
which Wail certainly a very Pimple proposition. but one that
wtarld be a cou.plete departure from the principle of the bill,
to hick he ritual not agree. The statements respecting the
t!ifference of .ffect in the qualification in large towns and
small ones, an.: lb: circumstances of the rates being paid in
some instance. by the landlords, and in Gibers by the tenants
he would conyidet whin that pan of the measure came an-
der considt ration ; hut lie Inuit oppose the hon, gentleman's
utt:tion as incoiteiatrnt with the principle on which the bill
wa•, founded, std which had received the sanction of the

Colonel CONO LIM thought the bill was calculated to
degrade the constituency of England t and he had seen BO
'puck of the evil in Ireland, that he should he very unwil.l
ling to see the evil extended to this country. They should
endeavour if possible to diminish the coming evil, and he
wiped mule person more competent would Forme an in.
crease of the qualillestion. ( Hear, hear.)
"Ir. fragrant W ILDE said, the repetition of the hon.
member Aar Preston, if serried, would be fatal to the MIL
When the present bill was introduced, the friends of reform
showed themselves wise, and *greed to support the bill pro.
insist, and not to put a measure of no much excellence to
jeupardp fee'the'eake of minor differences : that was the
true messing of the ay which wee heard throughout the
country—" the bill, the whole bill, and nothing but the
hear, hear.) The Learned Sergeant begged
to call the attention of the honourable member for Preston
to this feet, that by pressing his motion, or 'bona
might support such amendment, must inevitably change or
destroy- the measure that had been brought in by hie Ma.
jetty'. government, by foreleg upon them a constituency
that they could not support ; and however expedient it
might be is extend the franchise, under the circumstances it
WWI *within that the measure was as much as could have
beau. attempted.- The great objection against it had been
that it went too far, and any attempt to extend it would only
be attended with• delay; and be productive of no good. He
therefore begged of Hon. Members to confine themselves to
the improvement of the details of the Dill, and not to be
In:Lluced by the specious attempts of its opponents. The
Wends of reform had but one course to pursue, which was
to inure the good that was offered to them by the Bill.
Alr. HUNT said that be had not brought forward the
amendment for the purpose of delaying the Bill; be had
time it from principle havi g promised to do so in the last'
Parliament, when the. Bill was originally proposed ; and he
was sure that wh.li the Dill was passed that his amendment
would be adopted before many Sessions of Parliament had
passed over. lie would not withdraw his motion. but
would insist !won a division.
Mr. CROKIM saidthst he could not support the mod
of the Hon. Alember for Presto° be would oppose it be.
cynic it was the very spirit of the bill.
The Gallo.ry was cleared, and the House divided, when
titer, were—

Against it

... .. 138

Against the Anteadmeht ll3
Fat the amendment

deprecated the delay and obstructions that had been Gel red
to the bill, and expressed a wish that ministers would adopt
a bolder tone, and not suffer the vast majority within the
house, and the feelings of the country, to be tampered with
It) five or six individuals, who brought forward every nits-
sure of opposition, however trifling or insignificant. night
after night, for which there could be no necessity. but for
the purpose of procrastinating the progr:ss of the bill. He
hoped, if such practices were persevered in, that the noble
lard (the Chancellor of the Exchequer) would at once come
to the resolution r f cawing the house to meet every day at ten
o'r'ock in the morning.
Lord ALT HORP, after retnirding the gallant colonel
that his amendment had already been rejected by • vote of
the house, at some length repeated the same objections that
he urges] on the amendment being originally brought for.
ward by the gallant officer.
Sir E. SUO DEN supported the amendment.
Mr. C. FERGUSSON said he considored the clause be-
fore the house one of the most important in the bill. He had
heard no argument adduced to show the necrs'i•y of blending
tin• constituencies of the towns and coin ties, and he would
therefore support the amendment.
Lord J. RUSSELL said the hon. member who hail just
sat down had changed his opirion of the clause on account
of the alteration that had been made in it. His Lordship
proceeded to explain that the alteration had been made for
the purpose of preserving the franchise to such freeholders
as might not be residing on their own fteehold. His gallant
friend had discovered that the bill had lost ground in the
public esteem, and he came forward to give Ministers his
assistance by producing an amendment, which was to restore
their measure to irs former share of public favour (a laugh).
Now, what were the effects of the amendment ? Would the
exchange of a county vote for • city or borough vote con-
duce much to the satisfaction of the freeholders ? In a
small borough a large proprietor might decide the election,
by cutting up his property into 40s. freeholds. The prin-
ciple of the amendment, besides, had been already negatived.
Alr. CHOKER said, the freeholders might be improperly
created in the counties as well as in the boroughs. They
would be less liable to detection in the counties on account
of the greater number of electors.
Lord ALT oit P said their influence would, for the same
reason, he less great In counties.
Mr. PRA ED supported the amendment for two reasons.
First, it was according to the principle of the bill, which, as
the noble lord expressly declared oo introducing It, would
pr went the great towns from taking a share in the county
elections. Next, if the elective franchise was given to pro..
tect the property of a certain individual of a certain body,
why not make it operate on the spot where the property lay P
Why should the same property give votes in different places,
of a different nature— • county vote to the freeholder. and
a borough vote to the tenant ? (Hear.)
Mr. AIA BE ILLY could not allow a strong observation
made by the Gallant Officer (Col. Davies) with respect to
the Reform bill, to pass unanswered, coming as it did from
• reformer. The gallant Officer seemed determined to
make his observation known to the public, for he had waited
before rising to address the house after the division, until
certain gentlemen who conveyed to the pu►lic what passed
in the house had resumed their places. He had stated that
certain Members, whom he had not chosen to name, had
changed their opinions on the Reform bill A simple
ferrite, to the votes would plainly show that suck was not the
ease.

Alderman WOOD had been enrprised to bear $ Learned
Gentlemen (Sugden) accuse the Livery of London of being
jealous of the City freeholders, who were se few in numbers
compared to them.
Mr. DUGDA NE denied that Birmingham returned the
tlembers for Warwickshire, ma bad been stated by an Hon.
Member (Mr. Prised). He (Mr. D) had been returned for
that county by an agricultural majority. His unsuccessful
opponent was • gentleman, • native of Bins:ol6am, who
was.supported by its freeholders.
Mr. PRAED explained.
Mr. %V RYLAND would vote for the amendment, as su-
perseding the necessity of attaching agricultural districts to
the small boroughs. to complete the number of electors, and
thereby deluging them with votes whose interests were
those of the county.--(Hear.)
Colonel SI BTH Okt PE supported the amendment, Sat,
because it would increase the constituency of Linedn, a
place towards which be should always bast respect and affec-
tion ; and next, because it annoyed the ministers (a laugh).
He then alluded to an observation made by the Secretary
for Ireland tio the preceding night. He denied that a go-
vernment bad a right to require the votes of its dependents.
Such a practice was subversive of the constitution. (Ques-
tion.) He was not surprised now that Greenwich, Wool-
wich, and such places, should be enfranchised, fee they coo.
tamed plenty of dependents. (Question, question.)
Mr. BALER considered the claim to be decidedly
hostile to the aviculturists. It would bring far more bp-
rough voters into the counties, than of county voters into
the hemmers. The proportion would be as two to one.
Slr. HUNT said the city freeholders would not have an
undue influence in the counties, after the accession to tbe
county voters of the copybohlers and tenants at will.
Colonel DAVIES replied. He had been reproached for
having waited to address the house until certain persons who
conveyed to the public what pealed in the house had mooned
their places. Certainly, any thing from him must have very
little weight with the public ; bathe was desirous, when be
offered a proposition apparently hostile to the bill, to have
the grounds of his con. publicly stated. (Hear, bear.)
He was not hostile to the bill itself, but to its defects.
(Hear.) He was told that honourable members bad not
changed their principles: what be had said was, that they bad
changed theit minds. He would state an kwanes of the ano.
malice which the clause, as it now stood, would occasion.
heeds contained 2,300 freeholders. Five hundred of these
had 101. freeholds, and would vote for the dy, while
18110, who had freeholds of less than 101. value would
have a vote foe the county, that is, the electors of the lower
description would have the more valuable vote.--(Hear
hear) The small boroughs would, by the adjunction o
rural districts, be overpowered by agricultural electors.
He did not, however, intend to divide the House, after
the opposition which had been offered.—(Cries of " Divide,
diviis!")
rot SIETE! ()APE exhorted the gallant officer to divide,'
The division took place.
For the original motion

Majority for Ministers .. .. al
On the quiettion for Idling up the blank for the rent of
houses, the occupation of which gives the right of toting,
Majority for Slioist rs... inn with 101,
Ms. HUNT was on his legs at our reedmiseion, but cox Sir IL SUGDEN objected to the undefined manner by
a s ord that he said could be beard in the Gallery. . which the Trot was to be estimated; being either as rated to
Col- 'DAVIES rose to propose an amersdn:ent to the the house.tas, or poor'-rate, or paying 101. a.year rent, oe
original clause. ile said that be had proposed the same king of the value of 101. a-year.
amendment on a former occasion, when the clause relating to Lord A LTHORP said, if the right of voting was to de.
ctty counties was under discussion, and it wu then nags. pond on the rating or the assessment, it would disfranchise •
tired ; Let be attributed that circumstance to the accidental great numbe: of persons who inhabiad houses of 101. value,
state of the house and those members being ignores* of the but which, as was swingy the cam, were rated at a lower
nature of the am, Mariam He was desirous to provide for value.
cacti borough a euaatitueliey within itself without going kir. W. PEEL mid, be considered the clause the most
into tie comity to stippiy a constituency. He said the bill important and the most objectionable in the bill ; and that, if
was hilbil touch in public estimation. (Cries of no, no.) agreed to, it would give the democratic influence a great mo-
ll, begged the house to undertand the re-action was not dt. ponderance in the country. lie thought nothing could be
reettd against Reform, but against the bill. The hon. mein. more absurd than taking the same amount of rent
her could assure tLem it was true. (Hear, hew, from the in all boroughs or cities, without any regard to their
(►irnaition.) The publie had bum eonvinoed from the dos else or wealth. He thought the bill would nei.
bates which had taken place in dim house, that the bill ther diminish the expense of the ekttions, nor the
would ode be beaedclai to the °sentry. (Hear, bear, amount of bribery. the fature representatives of
trims the Oeposidon.) The honourable member mad towns, under the bill, would either be men so foolish as so
some slinsior. so the opinions that invaded in the city of squander large sums of Money, or so devoid of principle as
London, and said that even Isoneutable members in that to give any pledge that was demanded of them. The bill
house entertained opinions against it, which they wereafraid did not give general satisfaction, and it was impossible that
to express. The hon. member coolided with moving his it should. it was supported by many, sot from any M.
taitenduatut, did all prams legally .capacitated. who mimic merit, but because they consitlemd it the comments*.
:Alan -reside is 4 city or borough, not a county of itself, met of a series of destructive changes. (Hear, bear.) Ho
holding a heehold of Wad of 40.. oe,a 'Douai .4101. yearly was troovineed that if the elective franchise wu extended in
value aberWrepeisals, shall vote within the ems city or the manner ptoposed by the clause, it would be the owes
Imwough, and shall not be entitled towns fie thi county, throw of the institutions of this country. (Hear, hear. sad
31r." Alderman WOOD opposed the amendment. He a laugh.)
denied that the Bill Was falling la public estimation; and Captain POLHILL thought the clause was indeed mast
as regarded the citizens of. Gamiest, be was assured that important; and thought ati alteration should be made to
they still remained firm to the great measure of Reform— give to forty-six of the smaller boroughs the right of voting
they cared nothing for the squabbling that ensurted la the from the occupancy of SI. house,. It was absurd that the
ii. use of Commons—they had their atimition fixed wpm qualification in the Tower Hamlets should be the some min
the wore important Ariel the benefit ofrblemintry. the fony.six small boroughs. The boasurable gentleman
Air. Aid. WAITH N hadstatakiedlesminakiogois. moved that the blank be Shedup with the words five pounds.
re.l adorn frequently, became it appeared, by tease members I Lord MILTON said he must oppose the hon. gentle-
sneaking so often and espeadag one tut 011 e what they man's amendment. He thought the clause 111 proposed by
114 d Already said, litot their object vm ealyAr procrastitia. ministers was emulation with ancient right and franchise.
Lion t but he could not ilermin fir* ea of his (limp. He thought it was desirable that a variety of franchise
probation of the coutse that hid hioitul• by the gallant , should exist ; that something like universal sidings should
c...ionel. in stating as kb wit assnOitim, isistadiy what were calm In some districts ; but where a poor constitueucy were
ti" ^Orions of the eitkeelbef 410111Oiti-bdeliloo what ware so vote, the best security spinet corruption was the extent
the secret opinions of bomnsenbent A.m. Whit re. of numbers. He, thought the late election moved bow
said to the opin'ess of the dfillits lie Multi not Much tbit bill was estimated, and be was confident the prw
tell where ti e pullet eolebill • taillneiitiskillsom clauSe she mil understood by the people as It was in
but be (Aldermen Wild endfilhoofin4lo. berom.elsep: thar bombe.
1"16/4 sg" be elliinceibr inktitPoPOOPlititeen.wils't : mi:OITION supported the slime. l'be emelnal sal.
unuks'ill united• hod were. "VieW :41,04111". 1,1/4AF:ski Otlilk bouscheiders .woeld - give tbat rod min