Star.
London, England, 1831-03-08 00:00:00

REFORM.

Colonel SIBTHORP moved that the Order of the day for resuming
the adjourned Debate on Reform be read.
The Marquis of CHANDOS raid he had the permission of,'
the Gallant Colonel for addressing the House for a few moments. It
was most desirable that the discussions of that House should be
free ; but it was notorious that the friends of Ministers were all
oyez the country, threatening Members who voted against the mea-
sure with the consequences. It was reported in the Morning Chronicle
of Saturday, that on Thursday a meeting in favour of Reform was
held at the Crown and Anchor Tavern, in which a gallant officer,
late Member for Rye, said he was just come from attending a de-
form Meeting in Sussex, where there were 10,000 men ready to
march up to London to support Ministers, He wished Ministers
to say how they intended to act towards persons using such threats
against Members who did their duty in that house.
Lord ALTHORP said it was the wish of Ministers that the ques-
tion should be cahnly discussed 011 ha true merits- it was certain the
people felt a strong interest in the question, and where that was the
case, public meetings would take place, and strong expressions would
he used. He thought the expression used by Colonel Evans was a vio-
lent and a foolish one—but it was not such as the Government should
interfere with. (Hear.)
Sir C. WETHERELL said it was the duty of ministers to prevent
agitation. The noble lord said Colonel Evan's speech was violent and
foolish, but there were persons in this country who suspected that they
du not take means to prevent such inflammatory speechei. That threats
took place out of doors no one who read the daily effusions of the papers
could doubt ; but he would say threats were used in the house. The
hon. Paymaster told them they must vote ter the bill, or the country
should be convulsed.

The SPEAKER called the honourable gentleman to order, and be
sat down.

Lord ALTHORP said, the noble marquis had accused them of ex.
citing threats and intimidation. He was sensible it was their duty to
prevent either, and they would use the power of the law, if necessary,
for that purpose. (Hear, hear.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL said he was confident the noble lord
would agree with him, that if there were persons connected with Go-
vernment endeavouring to excite the people, that Government should
matrate itself from such persons. (Hear, hear.) He was averse to
tall any man to the bar for expressions he had used ; but he would
submit to Government, whether the language used by Colonel Evans
should not be prosecuted by the Attorney-General !
Mr. BRNETT could tell the honourable gentleman who appeared
so much alarmed at the expression of public opinion In favour of Re-
form, that the opinion was gaining the greatest strength all over the
kingdom ; and that the feelings of the people would be expressed in
the strongest manner in favour of the most important measure ever
passed by Parliament. (Hear, hear.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL aid be did not object to the expression
of public opinion, but wished it to be made in the regular way.—
(Hear,
hear.)
Alderman WOOD said, he had just come from a Common Hall,
consisting of thousands of persons, where the Ministerial plan of Re.
tom was unanimously agreed to. (Hear, hear.)
Mr. COKE said, though an old reformer, he never expected to see
such an excellent plan of reform. He was delighted to ace it brought
in by a Russell. (Hear, hear.) He was upwards of half a century in
Parliament, every year convinced him more and more of the necessity of
reform. The reform now proposed would do the Ministers everlasting
honour, and secure the institutions of the country and the happiness of
the people. (Hear, hear.)
The order of the day being read,

Colonel SIBTHORP said, from all the consideration he had been
able to give the plan of Reform proposed by Ministers, which even the
radical reform Member for Middlesex had declared surpassed his ex-
pectation, it was not surprising that he, who, though a reformer, was
not a radical, should think it went:too far for him to support. He la-
mented that Ministers had not proposed a plan of Reform in which all
the House agree. He was bound to pause before he could support a
measure from which, if injurious, there would be no retreat. Though
there were many blemishes in the representation of the country, yet,
when the noble lord at one fell swoop disfranchised so many, who never
offended, to bestow it on those who bad never possessed it, he must say
that the measure was partial, unjust, and tyrannical. He thought the
noble lord's selection of boroughs, both of those to be destroyed and of
those to be preserved, was partial ; and that a dissolution had been
threatened to operate on the fears of Members ; but he was not afraid
to go to his constituents at any time. He thought if persons holding
places and pensions were excluded from Parliament, it would be a most
beneficial Reform. Wishing that the Bill, which he thought would
never pass, should be fully examined, he should not oppose its intro-
ductioe, but he would oppose all its details. What would the Clerk of
the Ordnance say, who sat for the rotten borough of Bleechingley, on
which his Majesty's Ministers had pronounced sentence of death, as in.
capable of sending an honest member to that house—( A laugh.) There
was one great defect in the proceedings on this Bill, that was...no pro-
vision had been made for improving the accommodation for the public
press, which was necessary to put the public in full possession of the
debates on this momentous question.

Mr. TENNYSON said, he was so pointedly called on that he
could not forbear trespassing on the House. He was accused of sitting
for the rotten borough of Bletchingley. He thought it no disgrace to
sit for Bletchingley, though be bad but one constituent, as he had
always supported Reform, and was prepared to commit what was
called political suicide for the salvation of his country.—(Hear, hear.)
The sacrifice, indeed, was nothing to him ; but his hon. friend, the
member foe Durham, was ready to make a sacrifice of three of those
nominations, and was prepared to place 100,0001. on the altar of his
country.—(Hear, bear.) His Majesty's ministers were the true friends
of the King and the people, and would Eight the battle of both against
the many-headed monster which had so long waned against constitu-
tional liberty.—(Hear, hear.)
Sir GEORGE CLARKE said he rose to protest against the in-
ference drawn by the Lord Advocate from the silence of Scotch Mem-
bers that the plan of Reform proposed for that county had their con-
currence. The Noble Lord who proposed the plan had not entered in-
to the details of the Bill respecting Scotland. He was aware the mo-
tion before the House applied only to England. No doubt when a si.
miler Bill was introduced respecting Scotland, the details would be
fully explained, till then he would not be considered as giving any ap-
probation to that part of the plan applicable to Scotland. He thought
lie could not approve of diminishing the number of County Members
in Scotland, which he was confident would be generally condemned in
that country. The question now before the House was whether there
existed any overbearing necessity for making so extraordinary a
change in the constitution of England as was now proposed by the
Noble Lord 1 He did not deny the competence of the King, Lords
and Commons to make the proposed change. but it was only a change
to be justified by extreme necessity. The Learned Lord told them that
F.ngland was happy under the Tudors and Smarts; (he Sir G. Clarke)
was ready to abide by the constitution established at the revolution—
(Hear, hear). He thought the speech of his Right Hon. Friend (Mr.
Croker), on Friday night, must have satisfied the House that the cause
try were for years at rest on this question till they had been recently
excited. 31r. Canning hal declared that to the last day of his life be
would oppose refaces, and the noble lewd (John Russell) said, in excuse
for his friends who had taken office, that they were not pledged to it,
and that as a party the Whip did not support it. Since then there ha
been no petitions for reform till after the Catholic Relief Bill wee
passed. The general election, the revolution of Jule in Paris, and the
opposition to the Duke of Wellington for passing the Relief Bill, in.
duced many to raise a call for reform, which, he believed, many 41,
them now bitterly repented. The Lord Advocate had said there wee
no petition against reform, but he would say that almost all the pad.
tions asked for vote by ballot, without which the people would not be
satisfied. All the petitions complained of heavy taxation, and they ail
expected that a reform in parliament would diminish their blankest
he hoped they did not meditate an attack on the public creditor. If MI
found that all the petitions for reform proceeded on false data, and if
the bill was thrown out, as he expected it would. and that parliament
were dissolved, he hoped the hon. gentlemen would have the candour to
go to their constituents with the Chancellor of the Exchequer's budget
in their bands, and show them that no reduction could take place, and
then the petitions for reform would be few indeed. The great reduction
of offices that had taken place under the late government had greatly
diminished the influence of the novo, as he had no doubt the pintail
government must have experienced. The expense of elections all man
wish to diminish; but the plan of the noble lord, by increasing the
number of voters, would increase those expenses, and make bribes,
more generaL (Hear.) The plan sought to diminish the power of tbo
aristocracy to return members to that house, and it also diminished the
number of scot and lot voters. In 1821, the member for Durham
brought forward a measure of reform analogous to the present, on which
occasion Mr. Abercrombie, a reformer, said be could never consent to
the proposed plan, as he considered it revolutionary. He considered the
present measure to be dangerous and impracticable, and should ever feel

proud in having his name inscribed in the large majority by whom the
bill would be rejected.
Mr. PELHAM supported the proposed plan of Reform, which
he was confident would satisfy the people, and secure tbeonstitu-
tution.--( Hear.)
Mr. HOPE said he repjesented the condemned. bump* of Gatton,
buevyas satisfied his address to the souse would. not he ditneganled on
that account. He, u a Scotch gentleman, would pledge himself to
'mectrite Lord Advocate of Scotland or the plan of Refeem, u it affected
Scot)azal. He was aware of 'the 'pleaded talent of the learned lord ;
bat stab. would suppou the iristitutions of a country whleb his an-
cestors were amongst the foremost to defend. (Hear.) If Reform were
ne~t~ry, it must be for some reasons different from those urged by the
other side of the house. He reprobated the idea of the reason usigned
that the measure should• pass, namely, that the house should yield to
the call of the people, he would not give it tile offensive designation,
of the clamour of the people. No reasonable cause had been assigned
for that cry of the people ; the cry had Dot been made an end, but a
means for another object. All the petitions that had been presented,
had contained a prayer for. reduction of taxation, and the middling
classes of persons looked through Reform to accomplish that objects—
He could not blame the people fee their expressions of feeling, seeing
that their mind, had been inflamed by misrepresentation of public
measures and public men ; by exaggerated accounts of their salaries, and
similar circumstances. The hon. member stated, that he had no doubt
but that the hon. members on the ministerial bench had In a great de-
gree unintentionally tended to heighten that excitement of the
public mind. lie objected to the measure because it would ex.
dude one class of the community from becoming representatives, and
it would separate the ties that existed between the different classes of
the people.
Lord D. STUART said that all the eloquent speeches he had heard
in opposition to the measure, had not contained a single reason that
could induce him to change his opinion on the subject. He had no
doubt but that the measure would psis; he did not think that the 168
members fur rotten boroughs which were in that house could prevent
its passing. He was delighted with the conduct of his Majesty's Mi-
nisters, tot introducing the measure ; and he hoped it would be tri-
umphantly carried, as it was the only means by which could be pre.
served the benefits of the glorious revolution of 16116.
Mr. TYRRELL wished that he had seen the measure disposed of
long before that night, and he had hoped that its death-warrant had
been signed by the unanswerable speech which had been delivered on
a previous evening by a right hon. baronet who sat below him (Sir R.
Peel.) A premium might now be offered for a new Idea on the sub-
ject. He thought public opinion had been very much over-stated un.
til lately. He had had the opportunity of knowing personally the sen-
timents of a large number of constituents in one of the most strongly
contested elections that had taken place in England, and there Puha-
, mentary Reform had been entirely lost sight of. He had never
been asked about Parliamentary Reform in his canvass, nor had he
been called upon to allude to it in his address. A petition had been
presented from the eonnty in which the borough was situated that he
had the honour to represent but he denied that it represented the un-
timettts of the people—it was not signed by his Majesty's represent-
ative (a laugh)—the Sheriff, who was his 'Majesty'srepresentative,had
refused to put his name to it. He (Mr. Tyrrell) was decidedly op-
posed to this revolutionary measure of the Ministry. It had been said
that those hon. members who were on the Opposition side opposed
every thing and proposed nothing; but he had a proposition of his own
to make. He should form a united Cabinet, and depute one more able
than himself to express his sentiments. (A laugh.) He should then
move for an abolition of the Assessed Taxes, and for a well.regulated
proper ty. ta x.
lilr. SYKES gave his cordial support to the Bill. He approved of
the abolition of non-resident voters, which would save much expense.
The present measure was called unconstitutional and revolutionary.
(Hear.) He contended that to take sway the right of voting from the
rotten boroughs, to confer it on the counties, was merely a change.
He wished honourable gentlemen would say where what is called a
change ends, and where a revolution begins. He denied that that
House should be under the influence of the King and the Lords. The
Constitution gave the people a third of the legislative power. Of what
use was the House of Lords, if they were to have the voices, wisdom,
and influence of the Lords in the Commons House. He denied that
the corporation disfranchisement was a robbery ; all the benefits origi-
nally intended to be conferred by the franchise would remain guar.
anteed to each borough. He defended the present measure on the broad
basis of utility, and because it gave to the people their just and legiti•
mate rights. He veiny believed the plan was satisfactory to all classes.
All the letters he had received expressed the joy which it occasioned
throughout the large county of York. The individuals respectable for
intelligence and property were now, for the first time, called upon to
give their vote in elections, and if the measure passed—as he trusted
it would-..it would put an end to all those agitations which had so long
disturbed the country.

Mr. L. WELLESLEY might be one of those who, as it was said,
might be deprived of their rights and property by the present measure,
but he was mean indeed who put his own private loos in the balance
against the interest of the country. With respect to the county meet-
ing in Essex, it had been most numerously and respectably attended.—
It was, indeed, a general feeling throughout Ewa, and throughout the
country, that reform was necessary, not for revolution or the destruction
of the institutions, but to restore to these their primeval excellence, and
to prevent a general commotion. Nothing but a conviction that the
general cry was for reform, retrenchment, and non.intervention, could
have induced him to act as he at present did. He assured the house on
the word and honour of a gentleman, that his personal feelings led him
to support the former Administration, but be had sacrificed his private
feelings to the convict:on that the salvation of the country demanded a
new system of policy. The direction which the debate had taken would
have at least this advantage, that it could no longer be denied, as for-
merly, that reform was necessary, for all the speakers had agreed on that
point, however much they might differ as to the mode of reform. The
number and nature of the petitions proved that reform was demanded
not only by the lower, but even by the middle classes. The honour-
able member for Oxford had said that the subject had been agitated by
the people fifty years back. But all those conversant with the Araks of
the country knew that the people were formerly much more apathetic
with respect to the public administration, because much less burthened,
than at presefit. Here the member became almost inaudible from the
noise and confusion in the house. He was understood to justify the
proposed disfranchisetnents by precedent. He alluded to the state of
Spain deprived of the Cortes, and conjured all those who had any
thing at stake, to support the measure for the sake of preserving
their property.

Bit G. RRENDER deprecated the measure as not augmenting,
but confiscating the rights of the people.—( Hear.) He lamented, how-
ever, that the former administration had not transferred the right of re.
presentation to Manchester, Birmingham, and Leeds, from the bo-
roughs convicted of corruption. But to deprive an Englishman of his
franchise rights was a gross injustice. He had received a communica-
tion from his constituents, in which even the radicals 'coined in depre-
cating this disfranchisement. With regard to Scotland, the iatroduc-
lion of the 101. voters would deprive the landed interest of all influence.
The petition from the Reform Meeting at Edinburgh did not represent
the general opinion in that city. Again, a petition had been presented,
purporting to come from the County of Roxburgh generally, whereas it
came only from the heritors.—(Hear.) The gentlemen opposite might
l cheer, but they themselves were, perhaps, like the petitioners, having a
great deal about them of the nasal appeteru, but very little of the sat
prolusus.—(Cheers.) All these radical men were very ready to take
away the franchise from others, but very I.th to touch their own in-
terests.—(Cheers.) He should not oppose the introduction of the mea-
sure, as it was so vast and important. But he must say that it did not
do away with corruption. If the people wished for Reform they must
reform themselves.—(Hear.) He said this, because he knew what
would be the consequences of extending the franchise; there would
be quite as much corruption in the applications for places. Oh, no ;
let the people reform themselves—he wished to be reformed..—(A
laugh.) He had no hesitation in saying, that the plan now proposed was
contrary to the wishes of his constituents. He would express his opi-
nion fearlessly, though he had been held up to obloquy by that
dangerous power the diurnal press, for opinions heretofore given by
him on this subject on the presentation of some petitions. Let
that powerful engine say what it might, he would now express his
opinion to be decidedly against this measure. At the same time,
he felt it due to himself to say, thct he would give no factious op-
position to the bill. He had heard rumours of some cabal formed
for such purpose, but he would not lend himself to any cabal: he
would throw no other than fair obstructions in the way of the
bill—(Cheers.)

Lord HOWICK expressed his astonishment at the language ap.
plied by some Honourable Members to this measure, some calling it
spoliation, and laying hands on the property of others. Was the sell.
ing of votes a traffic that it was spoliation to interfere with ? The con.
stituents of the Right Hon. Baronet who last addressed the House
might be against the measure; but if they could be called to that bar,
and if he could institute inquisitorial proceedings by which he could get
at the sort of influence by which the Hon. Bart. was returned to the
House, he doubted not that he should be warranted in moving for a
Bill that would be as little palatable to those constituents as the present
measure. But be that as it might, after the East Retford solemn and
tedious farce, the people would be no longer put off. He did not mean
to say that there could be materially seduced taxation (hear); but the
people required a reform of that power whose wasteful expenditure had
led to such a state of things--(hear, hear,)—the burdens and improper
proceedings of which were the accumulation of a century's imperfect
e:t
rule. This measure was to avert the power of exerting sinister infiu.
ens.—(Hear, hear.) The Ministers were of opinion, that without such
a measure of Reform there was no security against the recurrence of
extravagance and periods of distress. Almost all the taxation of
the country was now required to meet the obligations occa.
sloned by the national debt—by pensions—by superaanuadons,
which, by the way, were a disgrace to the House ; and he repeated, that if
taxation could not immediately be materially reduced, it was truly
felt that reform would correct the faulty system under which such dif.
acuities had grown up, and prevent the recurrence of evils which had
produced such dangerous results. And the merit of this measure, he
submitted, was the real caution that characterized it where there was

such apparent boldness. It would leave nothing for subsequent riffs.
pules—it would be a settling of the question—not " a payment to ac.
count." He had always sincerely desired reform ; but anxious ay he wait
for reform, he should shrink from a remodelling of the present rtpresynta.
tion. He sought no further change in the representation than he ow.
tended was requisite to meet the evils complained of, and to secure the
safety of those interests endangered by the defects of the present n.po..
sentation. The plan said, where there was no population there should
be no representation,Ond. where there were large masses, to give mere
sentatives. That plan might not suit the honourable member for Ald...
borough (Mr. Croker), whose eyes were only clear in finding out .ult.,
but if there were to be any principle applied to the correction of tie
presentation, this was defensible; as to the charges about revolutio
and innovatioo, those who were for any Reform. hoist, ,
small might be the modicum, had no right to attemi, ,
frighten the supporters of this plan, by calling it innovation, iy.
cause even they would be innovators. (Cries of " hear, h..-tr
And as to the plan being extensive, he thought it would be equallt
dangerous not to go far enough. And he would ask the menll rs t,.r
Yorkshire and Cornwall what would be the consequence of e.eftatin •
this measure, after the excitation that had taken place ?.. (Hear, hear")
The people were excited, and he would say most properly excited.—
(Cheers.)—He considered that the measure had been wisely and pm.
perly brought forward, and that the people would not, and ought not to
be satisfied with less than was now proposed —(flear, hear.) Thy
reform proposed was at once cautious and efficient ; and as far as it had
been possible to collect public opinion, there was reason to believe the
the people would be satisfied with it ; and he therefore trusted that thi
house would adopt it, so that this great question might be finally
settled.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. J. PEEL said he should be glad to know when this debate
wee likely to come to a conclusion ? He did not know that any thin.;
new could now be said on. He should resist the measure as one tl'a,
was abominably unjust in its principles and details He should resist
it as a measure of spoliation towards those who had sent him to that
;louse for the last twelve years. The noble lord told them that tI
would finally settle the question ; but though it might be the last dust
he might prescribe, there were others to prescribe. He was persuaded,
however, that his " purge would not pass.' If it did, then there would
be Dr. Warburton and Dr. Hunt to prescribe their doses of ballot. A
measure of a " matchless" character would follow He meant no un.
friendly allusion ; he knew to what his own family were indebted fur
what they possessed ; and many of them having got into that House.
he should be a base villain if he did not resist the spoliation of that
under which they had so prospered. As to the Ministers standing or
falling by this measure, why they were on their last legs. when the mea.
sure was proposed—their days were numbered, and they were existing
only on sufferance. Those who would object to the spoliation of all
property—of the tithes—of the Church--and to the destruction of the
monarchy, he considered were bound to resist this motion. (Cheers.)
Mr. J. RUSSELL strongly supported the motion, and lamented that
it had been considered right, in resisting this great and excellent ma.
sure, to attribute unworthy motives to those who brought forward or
supported it. As to the ministers standing or falling by this measure,
it ought ever to be borne in mind that they took office on the sacred
promise, and on the high principle that they would bring forward a
measure of reform. (Cheers.) The hon. member concluded by giving
the bill his cordial support.
Mr. WM. PEEL explained.
Mr. J. WOOD observed, that he had been returned by the indepen-
dent suffrages of the voters of Preston, of whom there were (1,000:
these, if the present measure passed, might be reduced to 1,000. But
to them he should say, " True, your number is reduced, but a
benefit has been conferred upon the people of England at large."...
He should tell the honest voters of Preston, that though their fran-
chise had been limited, to 500,000 men had the benefit ban extended.
If he were asked, when he next visited his constituents, " Did you
vote for this bill ?" he should say he did, and that the rights of
the people would be much better guarded, now that the abominalah
borough system had been done away with, than if they had been
left with universal suffrage. (Hear, hear, hear.) It was a subject
of great triumph and consolation to him that no member had got up in
his place and said that no reform was necessary. That Parliament
stands in need of reform, therefore, seemed to be a point granted, and
it was only what species of reform hall be gzanted. (Hear.) He had
that day received communications from Leer! Sheffield, Halifax. Li-
verpool, and indeed the principal manufacturing towns in the north of
England, the waters of all of which expressed their joy and satisfac-
tion at the present measure, which wouM be, he was persuaded, the
best security for a good government. (Hear, hear.) The house had
been told by the honourable and learned member tor lioroughbridge, a
great deal about corporation robbery, which appeared to him (Mr. W.)
to be entirely gratuitous on the part of the honourable and learned
member,t for the boroughs themselves supported the measure. In
the great metropolis of London it had given sati‘faction, for a
meeting expressive of that feeling bad taken place that day ; a simi-
lar one also had been held at Chester, and no doubt the example
would be followed all over the country—but he had been told that
by letting in the people it became a democratic, therefore a revolu-
tionary measure—in answer to suck a charge, he should take the
liberty of reading to the house an extract from one of the published
speeches of Mr. Canning, a speech he believed corrected by himself,
and, therefore, to be depended upon. That statesman bad character-
ised the middle classes of society as the most valuable part of the com-
munity, and that the best chance of safety to the whole came from that
body, which was to be found between the two extremes of high and low
(bear, bear)--the individuals who composed that class had nothing to
gain by confusion—they were those to whom the high ought to look to
for friendly intentions and mutual cooperation; in short, in the loyalty
of the middling classes rested, in a great measure, the boasted strength
and security of the state.—(Hear, hear.) So had said the late Mr.
!Canning; and it was to give to these, to the great bulk of the coon.
try,the advantages which had been withheld from them, that the Bill
of he Noble Lord was intended. The Hon. Member said, he should
give the measure his support.
Sir J. JOHNSTONE was convinced that the measure of the noble
lord was dictated in the true spirit of liberality ; the want of a proper
and direct representation had a bad effect on the Government of the
country ; it gave cause for discontent, which became the fulcrum to
raise the lever of sedition. The class of persons contemplated to be
benefited by the present bill, was exactly that class to whom wise Le-
gislator ought to look with a hope of exterminating that bribery and
corruption by which the arms of freedom were absolutely set against
itself. He trusted that the people of England would, after the passing
of the measure, look as the elective franchise merely as a means for
putting money in their pockets. There was no danger of the aristocracy
losing its just power or influence ; by the present measure the mid-
dling classes became the guardians of social order and the institutions
of the country. He should support the bill chiefly because be was of
opinion it would produce a moral regeneration in the habits and feel-
ings of the people.
Mr. NORTH said, if any man was of opinion that the spirit of
moderation guided any of his Majesty's ministers in framing the pee
l sent measure, the speech which had been delivered by a noble lord
(Howick) must undeceive him. That noble lord had insulted the
victim he was about to sacrifice. Before he (Mr. North) should vote
for such a tremendous change, he must inquire whether champ were
I necessary. What recent miscarriage had taken place ? What bad
been done in the year 1831, that his Majesty's ministers had dimovered,
to their satisfaction, that the present representation of the people was
utterly inefficient ? What were those new emergencies which figmbited
a change of that system necessary which was found adequate to most the
difficulties of a disputed succession, and the earthquake of a Fame is.
volution ? Having carried the country through those and ether dill-
cultks with honour and glory, it was now found out to be bad, med
new scheme was to be substituted; but his Majesty's minister MK
that they were compelled to take these steps by difficulties of anodise
kind ; that there was a loud &moot for reform out of dome which, they
dared not to gainsay. For his own part be was not fully satisfied that
any feeling of that kind really existed. No man in that assembly
was more ready, or willing, to attend to the voice of the people
than he (Mr. North) was. He was not to be told that a tran-
sient or partial ebullition was to be considered as the current
of public opinion..--(Hear, hear.) In a free country, possessing
a free press, where every measure and system, however extraordinary.
was discussed to the fullest extent, and with great license, these pasting
transitory gusts of popular feeling were to be expected. He called.
however, on his Majesty's Ministers to take care that they did not
mistake such temporary feeling for permanent ones if they did, they
may too late repent it, and be reproached for their act by pawns who
now clamoured aloud fur its performance—who might say, •• in our
rme we said it," but that they now did not wish any cliaoge in the con-
stitution of the country. The hon. and learned member went on tour
that though Catholic emancipation had been granted, because it had
been demanded by the people, there was no parallel between it and tht
question of Reform—there did not exist the same cause for the latter.
(Hear, hear, bear.) Under the new system he should be glad to
know how the East and West India interests, as well as those of the
Colonies, were to be properly represented. The close boroughs. 0
they had been called, were attacked. Men of great talent had
come to parliament by these very means. The hon. and learned
Member then read at considerable length extracts front Hardy's Leo
of Lord Charlanont, and said that Flood, Pitt, Grattan, and other
Statesmen, had come to Parliament in consequence of representing
close boroughs; and notwithstanding all their efforts in the cause of
reform, they were rejected by the free boroughs ; but there was a great
evil which characterized the present BilL namely, it was not a final mea-
sure.—(Hear.) He saw no anchorage, no mooring; it was only the
first step to the abyss of a revolutionary hell !—(tries of "Oh !" are
cheers frmn the opposition.) They would still find "in deep a lower deep"
still open to receive tbern. If the Legislature were to abolish trial byiury.
' were to repeal the Habeas Corpus Act, and abolish the liberty of the Press
' all which it was competent to do—would be not call that revolutioosry
was the murder less a murder because it was a suicide.—(Hear,
bear.) If the house was determined to effect a radical change in the
' Constitution, let them approach the subject with caution—let them
recollect it t'd grown with them like their language, and like the
language it was a native. One was sufficient for the worship of
Gon, and the imagination of man—the other had conducted you to
happiness and glory ; it was sufficient to satisfy the love of liberty
in a Somers, and could not receive addition from the generous nos.

tun of a Canning. (The hon. gentleman sat down amidst great
cheering.)
air ROBERT GRANT said, ho thought the Government on this
occasion s'ootild not be accused of arrogance, or of violation of the con-
eat:thin, when they were treading in the steps of Pitt and Fox together,
consideration which he thought might have saved them from the hon.
sea learned gentleman's condemnation. But though he thought tin
honourable and learned gentleman's censure misplaced, his teepee he
his character should keep him from imitating his example. (BIM
hear, hear.) He did regret that notwithstanding the profaning et
efforts to exclude all extraneous matter, some personal topics hod crept
IttO the debate. The question was felt by all to be difficult and impede.
,ant, and certainly it should be kept from irritation if it were at.
sired to come to a just conclusion. It was said that some who eat
mi the Treasury bench were guilty of inconsistency is supporting
the present measure, because they had supported Mr. Canning's
administration, and Mr. Canning had opposed Reform. Is
reply to that observation, he would observe, that he was not
there as the representative of that splendid genius, but of the people d
England. bound to act according to the best of his judgment for their
benefit. (Hear, hear.) That remark having been made, he would not
take refuge as some others bad done, in the fact, that he had never
(paled his lips in that house on the question of Parliamentary reformer
but he would at once honestly confess that his former opinions were un-
favourable to reform : but the last elections, and all that had since taken
place, led him to consider the subject deeply, and the result of ant
consideration was, that he became convinced of its necessity, and
was a cordial supporter of the present measure; and it was his
opinion, that no man could be justly charged with inconsistency who
lewd in consistence with the dictates of his reflecting judgment.—
(Hear.) Respecting the supposition made by hon. gent. opposite
that Mr. Canning would now oppose reform, was it possible that those
who saw alr. Canning in the last years of his life take a course so &fel
ferent in his foreign policy, from that which he had formerly pursued,
should doubt, that were he now living, he would exercise his judgment
on the question of reform; and was there not more homage paid him
by following his example in change, where there was sufficient reason
to make that change desirable, than by remaining fixed in a dangerous
position, when all around us was in motion. The honourable and
learned gentleman said the government was acting under a sudden im-
pulse received from the people in the measure of reform, which im-
pulse would be transient; but in the case of Catholic emancipation,
the feeling in its favour had been of long duration. If the honourable
and learned gentleman said Catholic emancipation had been granted in
consequence of the length of time It had been sought for, he denied the
fact. He for one voted for Catholic emancipation, not certainly with.
out reference to the discontent of the people, for that was not to be dis-
regarded in the consideration of either Catholic emancipation or of the
present measure, but he voted for Catholic emancipation because he was
convinced it was founded in justice. (Hear.) The hon. and learned
gentleman appeared to forget that in every expression of his sentiment
against this measure there were exactly parallel arguments urged
against Catholic emancipation. Not a single argument had been used
against reform of which an exact fac simile was not to be found in the
defeated arguments used against Catholic emancipation. It appeared,
indeed, as if its adversaries had walked over the whole of that field of
mortal conflict, to pick up the blunted shafts that had recoiled, again to
•hoot them at the shield of truth. (Hear, hear.) The hon. and learned
gentleman said, the present state ot the representation had carried you
triumphantly through all your wars with France, and made you the
cnvv and admiration of the world—all these arguments were used by the
right hon. baronet near him (Sir Robert Peel) against the Catholic
question ; but when the fulness of time was come, the flimaey cobweb
was torn away, and justice trampled on the miserable sophistry.—
(Hear, bear.) One honourable gentleman said, " Do you talk of the
clamour of the people—you yourselves are the cause of that clamour."
Why that was a standing topic with the opponents of the Catholic
question before their own conversion, and some of their allies, in their
opposition to the present measure, retain that opinion still. (Hear,
hear.) But when the Right Hon. Baronet came to propose that mea-
sure to the house, how did he deal with this topic P He said he
would not ask how the agitation came, but he would take such mea-
sures as became a statesman to remove it. (Hear.) He would not
ask how the billows had been raised, but he would pour oil on the
troubled waters." (Hear.) Another standing topic was, " only con-
sider what extravagant notions the Catholics entertain; you talk of
giving them this and that, but they are determined to have the &boil-
don of tithes and taxes—they want to have England itself." How
did the right hon. baronet treat this argument ? He said, and he said
truly, the best way to defend trourself from unreasonable demands, Is to
grant what was reasonable. Another argument was, " think of the
enormous cruelty of disfranchising—not individual—but a whole class
of electors." When this measure was first p the Right Hon.
Bart. strongly opposed it, and said, " he wed d never consent to nom.
menu his career as a reformer by disfranchising so large a portion of
his Majesty's subjects." Four years after he did commence his career
as a reformer—not by adopting, but by proposing that very measure.
The right hon. bait then said he felt no pleasure in proposing diafran.
dawn-ant, but he was about to confer a put boon on Ireland, and in
spite of all the taunts that might be used, he would all that
was necessary for its accomplishment. (Hear, hear, propose. That was
the same spirit On which the government now acted. The excellence
the mechanism of the close boroughs, and their excellent effects, had
Lett much dwelt on : he had considered it much. The first view of
the House of Commons was, that it should represent the Commons of
England efficiently ; and the second was, that it should represent the
Columns of England exclusively. This was what they were led to ex.
pert from all the manuals of the Constitution that had been put into
thc.r hands. What was it in fact ? No one could pretend that it was
1!.. Louse of the whole of the Commons of England ; and so far from
aing nothing else, they were now told that the excellence that
niakts it the admiration of the world, was its being the house of
the King, Lords, and Commons. (Hear, hear.) The honourable
anal learned gentleman said the boroughs formed the beauty of the Con-
vitution, without which it would be incompetent to the discharge of its
,iattev. The same argument had been used by the hon. member for
Cal!iagton' wbo said, that if the House of Commons admitted no other
t:-.?.uoices than those of the people, it would forfeit its high character,
„nd become unfit for its high functions. If these propositions were
jest, the house stood In a false position in the eyes of the world
of the people of this country ; and in these days of light they
would never be able to maintain it in that false position.—(Hear,
hear.) If the theory and practice be at war—lf the theory be just, it
nun cot:demn the practice ; and if the practice be just, the theory must
be false. Blackstone, De Lolme, and all the authorities, say the House
or Commons represents the Commons of England—all the forms of
proceeding are the same—they pass resolutions that Peers shall
ace: intvrfere in their election, and if the House of Peers make the
thousandth part of an atom of change in a money bill, it is rejected
',r the House of Commons as interfering with their rights. It was
now so:d that the people had minds too obtuse to understand the Line
,'.l,:inctions which should exist between the theory and the practice.
lie acknowledged that his mind was in that state ; but he felt confident,
at liont the immense increase of national schools, the establishment
Mvehanics' Institutions, and the wide-spread diffusion of knowledre,
were quite capable of understanding the Constitution of
ithckstune, though no: the refinements of the hon. gentleman.
?vt every election, every candidate teaches the people that
I; Is the Constitution that they, and they only, should be
represented in the House of Commons—but when they come to the
practice they ray, this is all false doctrine, the beauty and utility of the
Constitution consists in rotten boroughs. This is the Constitution the
yrople cannot comprehend—doctrines so marvellously contradictory
co.exist, and if the people were educated to eternity could not
be understood. ( Hear, hear.) The moment the argument was uttered,
tar secret was half betrayed—the free.masonry of rotten boroughs stood
confessed—enough was seen to show the people the magnitude of the
tills, hut not to protect the house from the consequences of the
covery. (Hear, bear, hear.) He was fully convinad the present system
told not go on. Was it not therefore rational and courageous to try
trinher; and this Government were attempting to don (Hear, hear.)
Ite would remind the house of a remark of Lord Plunkett's, if they
‘,oti!d bear with him a few moments. (Cries of Go on, Go on.)—
i.ortl Plunkett said—" If you sever wealth and knowledge from
tar State, wealth and knowledge will destroy the State." —Hear,
hear.)—lt could not be denied but that knowledge was fast ext.
tending itself—it was increasing. Its chariot wheels did not drag
...vary. This was the general view that he took of the subject. Tisit
t•t4cticability of the proposed system was doubted by the learned
antleman who spoke last. He described in strong language the
~.atiful system of close boroughs. It was through them, he said,
*.a: genius found its way into that house. The instances he quoted in
'lgor? of ibis were certainly good. Mr. Gratltur, however,
ose borough
I,lw.nasilreree..
!toed by a close borough and there were More
lar.d.than open ones. It was also said, ifyoucel .titouglis what would become of the F.ast and ttsto Indiaawa rnitterecst7 Nvo. if the present system should be carried there still would remain
;i
'`r nest
at present returned four East India Directors ; and amongst
e nen India Directors there would remain : Buckinghamshire,
Rochester, Dumfries, and
:r:„,ele the house with many remarks which he certainly should
done had he had the homour of addressing it at an earlier pg.. f the evening. He would not then enter into the nature r:e
teenstitution as described by the learned gentleman, neither would
pt to refute the arguments that artisans were unfit to have a
m the election of representative,. No such decision could be
4ave fron, the language of the constitution. Such language was net
14tscninfluhr:, 11)ut A Apocrypha ; and perhaps. the learned gentleman would
ng apocrypha for his text. (Hear, hear.) Supposing, said
/iglu honourable gentleman, that clamour discontent may arise,
ttloi,t:criedeterred from awarding ample justice? (Hear.) Cl..
teat may arise from a just or unjust cause, therefore let

us manfully do our duty. Let us do an act of justice to the country.
and leave the event to Providence. (The right honourable gentleman
sat down amidst loud cheering )
Mr. O'CONNELL moved the adjournment of the debate.
Mr. FYLER complained of adjourning at that early hour, (half
past twelve o'clock. Loud cries of adjourn, adjourn ; go on, go on ;
question, question.)
Lord ALTHORP said it was not usual for the house on important
questions to adjourn thus early. No doubt a great many gentle-
men wished to speak before the house adjourned ; but from the length
of the debate already, he hoped that if ar. adjournment was agreed to
it would be on the understanding that they came to a conclusion to-
morrow (this day).
Mr. BENNETT could not agree to any such understanding ; it
might be very well for those who had already spoke ; but those who had
not, he thought would not enter into any such compact.
Mr. Ald. WAITHMAN had been waiting in the house ever since
five o'clock, in the hope of catching the Speaker's eye, but without sue-
cess ; he, therefore for one could not agree to ,any arrangement for
closing the debate to-morrow evening.
The Marquis of CHANDOS wished to ask the noble lord when he
intended to move the second reading of the bill.—(Hear, hear.)
Lord ALTHORP was desirous that it should take place before the
Easter Recess. He therefore proposed that the second reading should
be on Monday se'nnight (the 2lst inst.) That would give ample time
for the public to judge of the principle of the bill.
The Marquis of CHANDOS said, if it was delayed longer than the
time mentioned, he for one would refuse granting the supplies of the
Mutiny Bill.
Sir GRAHAM.—Then I shall move the third reading of
the Mutiny Bill immediately.
After some discussion, in which Mr. Ooulburn and Sir Francis Bur-
dett took a part,
Sir JAMES GRAHAM said he would not press for the third read-
in of the Mutiny Bill at that time.
The debate was then adjourned until five o'clock this day.
Several Bills were passed, and others forwarded a stage.
DUTY OS CANDLES.

Mr. HUME asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer whether it was
the intention of government to reduce the duty on wax as well as on
tallow candles ?

Lord ALTHORP said, he certainly had no such intention. Reducing
the duty on wax candles would not benefit the poor and midZinzsclas-
sea, for whose benefit the reduction of the duty on tallow was
proposed.
Mr. HUME said, that was not his reason for asking the question.
What he wished was, to see the removal of Excisemen from every
manufactory.
Several petitions were then presented, and the House adjourned at
Half past Owl o'clock.

OPINION OF THE NEWSPAPER PRESS ON THE
MINISTERIAL PLAN OF REFORM.

LONDON DAILY PRESS.
YON.

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confessed--enough WAS seen to show the people ti
but not to protect the house from the conse
corery. (Hear, bear, hear.) He was fully convince
wild not go on. Was it not therefore rational an,
another; and this Government were attempting tc
lie sottld remind the house of a remark of Lord
ttodd bear with him a few moments. (Cries of
Lord Plunkett said—" If you sever stealth at
tae State, wealth and knowledge will destroy
heat, hear.)—lt could not be denied but that kn
leading itself—it was increasing. Its chariot v
zesty. This was the general view that he took 01
Practicability of the proposed system was doub
Ismtleman who spoke last. He described in a seautiful system of close boroughs. It was thro
'4: genius found its way into that house. The in
.upport of ibis were certainly good. Mr. Gratis
!sczed by a close borough and there were more do
larei.than open ones. It was also said, if you
uotoudis what would become of the F.ast and We
Nor, if the present system should be carried then
Plates that at present returned four East India Dir
the West India Directors there would remain
sandwich, Rochester, Dumfries, and
trouble the !mace with many remarks which
.-"e done had he had the honour of addressing
:toll of the evening. He would not then en 'tt the coostitu:ion as described by the learned genii ,eatternpt to refute the arguments that artizans s
rpte in the election of representatives. No sue
'ran from the language of the constitution. Suc
Ser.pure but A pocrypha ; and perhaps. the learn
rfer 114%1ng apocrypha for hls text. (Hear, hem
honourable gentleman. that clamour and i
t Is, to be deterred from awarding ample Nati
sad dbcontent may arise from a just or unjut