Star.
London, England, 1809-02-08 00:00:00

Ministers. On the subject of me liberty of tee press!
he might be allowed to make a few observations.—
The law of the country was equal to correct and put
down any licentiousness of the press, whenever it
should become necessary ; but that licentiousness
could not be suppressed without hurting the liberty
of the press. If his Lordship would amend his mo-
tion, he would have no objection to agree to it. If
he will state that he means to go into an enquiry of
the Convention of Cintra,the manner in which the war
has been conducted in Spain, or any other subject,
there will lei'no objection to grant him all the infor-
mation he may desire, and he could assure the Noble
Earl there would be no unwillingness in Ministers to
meet him on these specific charges, or any other he
might think proper to bring forward ; but let him
not go into a scrutiny of their conduct without hav-
ing the documents necessary to form a decision before
the House.
Lord ERSKINE supported the motion. The
events which had occurred since the close of the last
Sesiior., justified the appointment of such a Commit-
tee is Cie Noble Earl proposed. He agreed with his
`;e:ile friend on the woolsack, that the law, as it
now stood, was fully equal to the protection of indi-
vidual character, and the character of the State.—
Nobody could suppose, that if the House went into
the consideration of the State of the Nation, it would
have any thing to do with the liberty of the British
press. It would be easy to state what particular sub-
jects the Committee might sit upon, if the motion
were .granted ; but he begged that his Noble Friend
might not be " eabined, cribbed, or confieed," in his
inquiry, and that if it should be thought prudent
that he should make no allusion to Sweden, he should
not be precluded from inquiring into what took place
in Portugal.
Lord "'GROSVENOR professed his readiness to
frame his motion in any shape calculated to bring the
important subjects he should mention before their
Lordships.
Lord LIVERPOOL said, that during the last
20 years, in all the calamities and vicissitudes which
'arose in it, whether proceeding from misconduct or
misfortune, there was no instance of such a motion
heirhes agreed to as that proposed by the Noble Lord.
In the course of that time, repeated motions of the
nature of that brought forward had been proposed,
and they were invariably resisted by the Noble ,Lssrd
on principles in which he completely agreed with!
him. The chief ground for resisting them was
the indefinite nature of such motions. He would
not say that cases might not occur in which such
Committees might be necessary, but when that did
not happen, it should give way to a course less sub-
ject to inconve*ence. If Ministers wished to shrink
from inquiry; there was no mode better adapted for it
than the one proposed ; no mode better adapted to
defeat discussion; no mode better calculated to con-
found and confuse all enquiry could be adopted.-'--
The ordinary and regular course would be to adhere
to the practice of Parliament ; to miller information
first, and then to follow it by a specific motion of
censure, if he should be warranted by the nature of
that information. Let the House get at the facts,
and then they, would know how to proceed. The
Noble Earl who made the motion, bad dwelt much
upon the great losses in men, ammunition, horses,
and artillery, sustained In nSpain. As far as he
could follow him in those facts, and others respect-
ing the march of the troops from Portugal, and the
movements in Spain, there was not one of these facts,
at least one which was material, in which the Noble
learl was not incorrect. How necessary was it, there-
fore, that before he called for a Committee, their
Lordships should be put in possession of the true
state of the facts. For his part, he was disposed to
give him every information, consistent with his duty
to the public. With respect to Spain or Portugal,
Ministers would have no reserve as to the extent of
the information they were disposed to grant, but they
could isot exercise equal -liberality in what related to
Sweden. They would not shrink from investigation
ee any points from which public inconvenience was
of ikely to arise. •
Plie E. of MOLRA said, he thought nothing
could be fairer than the argument used by his Noble
end Leased Friend (Lord Erskine) which had
beyond the power of contradiction, that such
a '...ornitittee as had been moved for by the Noble,
ought, in the present instance, to he appointed ;1
.13:1 that the circumstances of the country loudly
~;:red for it. For his own part, he was convinced
that, whatever the judgment of the House might be,
the verdict of the country would be given on the de-
cision of the House that night. Nothing could, in
his mind, be clearer than the misconduct of his Ma.
icsty's present Ministers. That which he charged
them with was so palpable and glaring, that it stared
every man in the face, and must, in the eyes of the
weigh heavily against them, unless they con-
lesited to clear themselves by a fair and full investi-
.!:ll:,:ii of the measures they had adopted and pur-
sued. It was very extraordinary that they who said
thev wished nothing so much as investigation, and
that they would court it in every shape, should have
Ai great an aversion against the Committee then mo-
ved for ; it was idle to talk of their calling for infor-
• :ttion. Ministers ought not to give Noble Lords
that side of the House the trouble of calling for
eleh intOrinetion, but should themselves bring it for-
etrd, and not narrow the ground by cavilling at
r mical forms and phrases, and pretending that this
si id of Committee was not that which was properly
Adapted to the occasion. He would, however, state
one instance of what he thought obvious misconduct,
and that was the case of the King of Sweden. After
leaving encouraged and drawn him in to quarrel and
cc:ne to a rupture with Russia, they had, almost in
Ale first instance, abandoned him and his interests-, by
recalling the army that had been sent to his assist-.
ante, and which, after being several weeks in
the Baltic, without having at all assisted him,
w brought back, and he left to finish the unequal'
contest by himself. It must also be remembered in
what an unfavourable and hostile disposition they
bad placed Denmark against us, so that nothing
ould be more unfavourable than the present state
of tie. Baltic. Turn which way we would, the
_ prospect was the same, and bore the like gloomy and
dreary aspect. What was our situation with regard I
to America ? and '.ow had. Ministers acted towards
that country ? They knew in
.the beginning of the'
Tees, when they first began Stith Sweden, that they
had every reason to expect a war with America.- •It

•
UN•1•11.4
Ministers. On the subject of use lib
he might be allowed to make a few
The law of the country was equal to
down any licentiousness of the pro
should become necessary ; but the
could not be suppressed without hu
of the press. If his Lordship woulo
tion, he would have no objection to
he will state that he means to go int
the Convention of Cintra,tke manner
has been conducted in Spain, or an
there will be.no objection to grant hi
mation he may desire, and he could
Earl there would be no unwillingnes
• meet him on these specific charges,
might think proper to bring forwar
not go into a scrutiny of their condo
ing the documents necessary to form
the House.
Lord ERSKINE supported the
ev.nts which had occurred since the
Session, justified the appointment of
tee as Noble Earl proposed. He
I`;Jhle friend on the woolsack, that
now stood, was fully equal to the pi
vidual character, and the character
Nobody could suppose, that if the I
the consideration of the State of the
have any thing to do with the liber
press. It would br easy to state wh
jects the Committee might sit upon
were .granted ; but he begged that
might not be " cabined, cribbed, or
inquiry, and that if it should be
that he should make no allusion to
not be precluded from inquiring hit
in Portugal.
Lord "'GROSVENOR professed
frame his motion in. any shape ealci
important subject:; he should men
Lordships.
Lord LIVERPOOL said, that
20 years, in all the calamities and
'arose in it, whether proceeding frt
misfortune, there was no instance
.being agreed to as that proposed b:
In the course of that time, repeal
nature of that brought forward
and they were invariably resisted t
on principles in which he compl
him. The chief ground for rel
the indefinite nature of such mo
• not say that cases might not occ
Committees might be necessary,
not happen, it should give way to
ject to inconverOence. If Ministei
from inquiry; there was no mode t
than the one proposed ; no mode
defeat discussion; no mode better
- found and confuse all enquiry cc
The ordinary and regular. course
IN) the practice of Parliament ; to
first, and then to follow it by a
censure, if 114 should be warrante
that information. Let the Hou
and then they, would know how
Noble Earl who made the motion
upon the. great losses in men, a
and artillery, sustained In nSpai.
could follow him in those facts,
nog the march of the troops from
movements in Spain, there was nc
at least one which was material, i
Vaal was not incorrect. How nece
fore, that before he called for a
Lordships should be put in pos
state of the facts. For his part,
give him every information, consi
to the public. With respect to
Ministers would have no reserve
the information they were dispose
could mat exercise equal 'liberality
Sweden. They would riot shrink
oa any points from which public
ikely to arise. •
The E.irl of MOLRA said, I
could be fairer than the argurnen
and Learned Friend (Lord
;.own, beyond the power of conti
io'ornreittee as had been move
E ought, in the present instant
and that the circumstances of
for it. For his own part,
that, whatever the judgment of t
the verdict of the country would
cision of the House that night.
his mind, be clearer than the mis
icsty's present Ministers. That
them with was so palpable and g
every roan in the face, and must,
weigh heavily against the
,:,nte.:l to clear themselves by a f
:11:.1.1 of the measures they hat
sued. It was very extraordinarl
they- wished nothing so much ai
that they would court it in every
SO great an aversion against the
ved for ; it was idle to talk of th
•anon. Ministers ought not tr
that side of the House the rt.(
intOrmation. but sktruld the