Star.
London, England, 1830-02-20 00:00:00

..poondsv lainnipn. While such a system waVgjo continue,
beedisitilot expect that any reduction would whieligthrld
.atidlienet the wants and wishes; ofthepthple. would callnpon
"the holes to recollect what be had etate4on previoueoieZU ions {tat
ailiikithey were voting away 2,ljddioool.for keeping up fortifications
in *Canada, they had arlitt to force upon ministers the necessity of re.
dtuAtion.lt was said tha n this iindance,no reduction could take place,
for that government, having once unbatked in the works, must still
proceed. But where, he would ask, was the necessity for embark-
ing in them at ell? Why in this time of profound peace was the
nationtiut to en expense of-280,0004a year for militia ? Why did
the .vo hewer corps now cost the country 66,0001? Why were
not ihesc items struck out of the public expenditure? Was
there not patriotism enough in the aristocracy to muster their
retainers without being paid foe it ? He knew very well that had
Mr. Canning been now alive, that eminent statesman, consulting
the wants and wishes of the people, would never have sanctioned
an expenditure of 101. a year for each individual belonging to a
yeomanry ovolunteer corps. (Hear.) He held a paper in his
band.which showed that, since the year 1817, the militia had put
the country to an expense of not less than 3,900,0001. The
reduction of only 278,0001. in the miscellaneous estimates was quite
paltry, and not to be talked of for n moment. He could see no rea-
son whatever why ministers should involve themselves in public
works which would be attended with great delay and expense, bat
which, since once commenced, must be completed. What bodies.
ease of the 300,0001. for Irish miscellaneous estimates? The S.
name committee had recommended that the grant should be reineld
to half that amount, but he did not see that anything was does le
the matter. All who looked into these estimates would see whet
vast sums had been wasted away in Ireland for the last twenty y'
and for no other object whatever than to keep up an improp In.
Buenaagainst the peace and happiness of that country. (fleas.)
Now, however, that the condition of Ireland was daily improving,
and that the passions and pvejudices of the people there were
setting down into tranquillity, they had a right to expect that In.
land should in every respect be plead on the same footing with
England and Scotland. Was there to be no reduction In the Co.
bogies ? Was it possible to see with patience the colonial appoint.
menu that had taken place, and the persons who filled them
receiving enormous sums for doing little or nothing, while this
country, already overwhelmed with distress, was made to bear the
further burden which each of them entailed upon her 1 (ILebil;tt
But returning to our military expenditure, he found it al
disproportionate to the resources of the country. He was quite
convinced that the country was not in a state to keep up
81,000 infantry, 8,000 artillery, end 30,000 seamen. This was
the whole aggregate amount of our force, and it was one which
no country ought to be called upon to keep up in a time of peace.—
Of what use amid such a vast body be in times like the present ?
The persons composing it did nothing except become pensioners
upon the government. Ministers, instead of adopting the recoup.
mendation of the finance committee of 1817, which called upon
them to reduce cnienditure, still went on increasing it from day to
day. They rued increased the number of men for the colonies haw'
65,000 to 75,000 men. No effectual reduction could be made
unless the number of the military was reduced. The stag, seri&
posed chiefly of medical officers, had increased the expense to the
amount of IC.I, 0001. He contended that a reduction of at least
20,000 men ought to be made. The hon. member concluded some
further Observations by stating that ..f the 16,000,0001. proposed by
the Estimates as the expenditure for Cie army, navy, and ordnance'
departments, 6,800.0001. might be reduced, which, added to deal
amount of surplus revenue, would effect a relief to the country to
the amount of 8,000,0001.
Lord ALTHORPE said he would not withhold his praise from
the reductions as far as they went 1 they certainly were greater
than he expected ; but yet he was bound to say they were not suffi-
cient, when be considered the distressed state of the country hear,
bear.) They were not sufficient to give any material relief
hear.) As he was on his legs, he would tee the opportun 1:;a:}
thanking the right honourable gentleman opposite (Mr. Peel) he
the reforms he had stated to be in his contemplation on the pro.
ceding night. The right honourable gentleman appeared die:
posed to strike off more patronage than any other administrate
don had ever before consented to resign (hear, hear, hear.) He
trusted this was a sign that the right on. gentleman intended 10
carry on the government supported by the attachment of the people;
but he begged to rerninet him that he must first ameliorate the eon. '
dition of the population, which could not be done without affording
them relief from the burden of taxation. He was surprised that the
right 11013. the Chancellor of the Exchequer had said aagg of the
taxes, although he did -net expect that any administration
would ever make a sufficient reduction of its own accord. The
house must compel them. He was well aware of the feeling
that prevailed in the breasts of those presiding over any put'.
cubs departments. For instance, be knew the energy and
activity the honourable and gallant officer (Sir Henry Hardinge)
displayed in the management of the affairs of the ordnance. He
knew his anxiety to have eve/ will the same state of order
and efficiency u in time of war ; and be could understand the pride
be (Sir H. Hardinge) felt in his department, and the sentiments
which wculd urge him to oppose any reduction which would have
the effect of diminishing the force over which he exercised a con.
troul. But the home should not share in those feelings, nor adopt
such reasoning. They should recollect that their best way to
prepare for war wan by filling the pockets of the people—(hear,
hear, hear,) and not by keeping up our military establishmebt on
the same enormous wale as at present. In conclusion he would
observe that it would be their duty to look to the various ulti-
mates in the committee, and to reduce them as much as they could.
--(hear, hear.)
Sir E. KNATCHBULL allowed that the reduction exceeded his
expectations, and he gave the administration credit for wishing to re-
duce the expenditure of the country to .the utmost possible limits,
consistent with what they deemed the efficient maintemsoce of the
civil and military establishments. But the amount of this reduc-
tion was in nowise calculated to give relief to the people in their
present distressed condition. He had in a frank and candid manner
borne witness to the good intentions of the administration ; while
he at the same time declared they had not done enough. In dis-
cussing this Tuition, he, however, felt himself placed in a situation
of extreme diffictilty. (Hear, hear.) He might look to the nude.'
lishments of the country in reference to itk character and si-
tuation
in the European community. In this vie*, be
must agree with ministers that there could be no farther reduction.
But there was another view of the ease, which referred to the into&
teal circumstances of the country; and looking thus, he was bluff
to ask if the country could bear the pressure of its present ber•
thee ? and then he would be obliged to acknowledge he could net
ism the capability of its supporting itself in the situation it at. that
intenent.oecupied. In looking to the administration, he could say
that he believed that there via no gentleman connected with It who
did not ably end zealously discharge the duties of his office ; and yet
When there wawa question if the 'ratifies of public men ought not to
be reduced, he was obliged to give his voice in the affirmative, be-
cause he felt that It was impassible for the country to pay for their
Services at that rate—of which' they 'were, perhaps, well deserving.
The fact was, the government had only two courses Open to them ;
they must either change the policy they had for some time past put-
end, or they should reduce taxation. The administration was pre-
duly placed under these circumstances; within the last five years
they had adopted the liberal ;Kilicy (as it wee called) of the hon.
member for Montrose, and others hon. members, who generally oat
on the second Opposition Bench ; they followed their advice in re.
spent to matters of commerce and the internal government of the
country, but they had neglected that which the hon. gentleman bad al.
ways recommended as a concomitant of this free trade system ; -they
hedsnade no reduction In taxation (hear, hefty) therefore they had
now only one of the two courses to pursue; they aunt either ahem.
don this new policy, or they must make an efficient reduction In
taxation (hear, hear.) For if they hesitate now to adopt the comm.
mitant measure, and so decline both courses, the counter must fall
between the two propositions, and be (Sir Edward Knuchbull)
knew not hqw It Was to be extricated (hear, hear, hear.) He
m4ht be deceived in these gloomy prospects, and he should be
rarged
ted If he was so; but he felt that be would not have
his duty, if he bad not stated his views upon the subject.
Giving, then; his majesty's ministers credit for the best intentions,
acknowledging that the reductions had exceeded his expectations,
be would conclude by declaring he saw little, prospect of their re-
lieving the country from the desperate state of distress under whist
it then suffered, anklet:en Orthe two ifiltin L. 140 Mentioned was
peomptly taken.—(Hear, hear.)
Mr. W. NORTON said, the alluehm In the King's epoch to the
distress of the country was vague end uneatisfestorh TheCe were
three classes suffering at present. The landowner, who did not get
his rents ; the capitalist, wbo had to endure a diminution of his
profits; and lastly, the labourers and artisans--the mostmoat ounterous
of the three—who were compelled to werkfor their eopport. 'Now.
contended that unleas a divon was toads in this tifiPikaats :cIW.
racier of distress, little thuM be done. Every man moat agree wish
'Hi "11 to the - - - •ducing •

better. able to pay them in soother currency. The hon. baronet,
who now complained.= :much .of .tbe operation of the altered
currency, should have had the same thoughts in 1819, and
should have recollected that the change must be injurious to per-
sons who bad mortgages, jointures, and other charges on their
estates contracted in one currency, and about to be mild in another.
But how a second change—a change from our present to our former
currency—was to relieve the suffering classes of the community, he
really could not understand ; and after the positive declarations of
ministers that they would not alter the currency, and after the
support the house had given to those declarations, he thought
they were precluded from even making a change the
subject of consideration as one of their measures of relief. (Hear,
ben.) He must, however say, that the immediate relief of the
classes would not operate as a relief to the whole
manaunity, for past experience had proved that great prom.
perky 'flight exist in one portion of the empire and great die.
tress in another. The fallacy of the expectation that the proape.
rity of one class—and that a very large clam—must necessarily
he accompanied by the prosperity of all the rest, was shown by the
circumstances of the year 1825. In the speech from the throne
!in that year, which, by-the-bye, was made prior to the currency
transactions now so much bewailed, the prosperity of the coun-
try was spoken of in a very glowing manner—every one echoed
the rejoicings there made, and language seemed too weak to
describe the almost overwhelming prosperous state of the
assatry. Yet at that very moment Ireland was in a state of Misery,
=squalled In any portion of the civilized world. But if it were
true that this country was most prosperous at that moment, when
distress and wretchedness were so widely spread in Ireland, it might
also be true that the restoration of the stiffening working classes to
a state of comfort would not be accompanied *with a general re-
turn to prosperity throughout the country. (Hear, hear.)...
He wished besides to observe, that the mode of relief recom.
mended by the honourable member for Aberdeen was hardly likely
to produce any extensive good, for the dismissal from the str.
vice of 20,000 men, who must be thrown upon their already over.
charged parishes, would not be likely to diminish to a great extent
the burdens of the people, since those men must be supported by
taxes upon the inhabitants levied either in one shape or another. In
his conscience, therefore, he did not think that remedy was calculated
to produce much benefit to the people. If, indeed, the 20,001) men
could be taken away altogether, and the country was never more to
see them, in that case the reduction might be efficiently applied to
relieve the burdens of the people ; but if their mere dismissal front
the army was to be put forward under the pretence of a reduc-
tion that was to relieve the people, he should certainly oppose it,
even if he stood alone. He thought by no means a judicious course
in hon. gentlemen to speak of such reductions as likely to produce
mach benefit, and he thought they could hardly with propriety be
wilted up in discussions of this kind.
Mr. A. BARING said, that Government was right in aiming at
every kind of retrenchment, and although it might not be so exten-
sive as to afford great relief, yet it would be acceptable to the coun.
try, as it would be an earnest of what they meant to do. He felt
that the business of the evening was to discuss measures of finance,
and that it would be better therefore to postpone other topics. until
they came regularly before the House. Still he was not disptised to
blame those representatives of the people who took every occasion to
press upon the attention of the house the distressed state of their
constituents.—(Cries of hear, hear, hear.) The hon. member for
Kent was mistaken when he supposed that the government had
been acting on the system of the hon. member for Alontrose, for one
part of that system was a free trade in corn. This was a measure
which the hon. member for Montrose always contended would pro-
duce a great amelioration of the distresses of the people ; but he
(31r. Baring) only alluded to this to chew the hon. baronet that Go.
moment bad not been acting on the system of the honourable
member for elontrose, as the honourable baronet appeared to sup.
pose. The question of to-night was the reductions proposed by
the Chancellor of the Exchequer, who had only presented the
I pleasing side of the picture, but had not said whether the reduction
be proposed would cover he defalcation of the revenue.—(Hear,
bear.) From this source, therefore, no reduction of taxation, nor
relief of the general distress, could be expected. He feared no re-
duction of taxation could at present take place. He could not agree
in one principle of the member for Aberdeen, that was the sweeping
away every suplua revenue. In what state would the country now
be if there had not been a surplus revenue to meet the defalcation of
the revenue. He was satisfied the country would lose its credit if all
surplus was taken away ; and, in happier times, he hosed to see
some effort made to reduce the enormous amount of the ebt ; and
unless some gentleman had some great financial measure to propose,
he could not see how the present scale of taxation could be reduced;
and if the govenunent or any honourable gentleman had any in-
tention of proposing a reduction of the malt or any other tax,
be thought it would be very desirable to have that question brought
forward and disposed of. He believed the government had given
the most sedulous attention to the question of diminishing the pub-
lic expense, and the reductions now proposed, coupled with the sa-
crifice of patronage, convinced him that they were sincere in their
proiasiars of making every reduction that was practicable (hear,
he=w; bar.) The expense of colonies was enormous, and when they
mated no assistance in any way to British industry they ought to
be 'Neu up. He alluded particularly to the lonian Islands, which
wefts an enormous cost to the country, end from which we got nothing
but currants for mince pies. The greatest bead of expenditure in
which be thought permanent reduction could be made was the sys-
tem of tread Weight, which now amounted to six millions. Instead of
gently-Wag such a system, he would almost prefer the American
system, where Government only paid for actual services, leaving its
servants, like every other class of citizens, to provide for their own
superannuation, which, in this country, was always In their power
to effect by means of insurance and benefit societies. He should be
glad if Government had been able to make a greater reduction, but
he was grateful for what was done.
Mr. Alderman WAITHMAN was wholly dissatisfied at the
proposition made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer, and was con-
fident no one out of the house would be more satisfied than himself;
as it was utterly impossible such a reduction could afford any relief
of the proem general distress. There was no tax which bore more
heavily than the house and window-tax, which ought to berepealed,
if the relief of the ecople were intended.
Mr. MABERLI contended that the best way to relieve distress
was to take off taxation, and to limit the excenditure. If, since the
peace, proper economy had been practised,. there would have been
at this moment fifty or sixty millions in the treasury to meet the
wants of the people. The reductions contemplated were too trifling.
Why, he would ask, was there not a consolidation of public of
As to the navy, there was no reduction in it worth mentioning. Ile
could not sec the necessity of keeping dock-yards, and of building
' ships which were not wanted. The colonies were also s great burden.
and required a large infantry corps; but of what use were tl:e
horse.guards ? The estimates last year were 17,300,0001. which was
mote than was recommended by a committee in 1817. Hewisked the
house to recollect that whatever reduction of expenditure was spoken
of, there was no reduction of taxes premised by elinivent. He
should like to see, for instance., a reduction of the duty on bier:
in short, there ought tobe a revisiou of the whole system of taxation.
He had no hesitation in saying that great reduction in taxation and
expenditure might take place without in the least degree impairing
the public service, and he implored the house to refuse the es t-
mates until %I inisters promised great reductions. At the Name time
he felt called upon to say that he approved much of the mode in
which the Chancellor of the Exchequer made his statement.
Mru FERGUSSON said the house would be justified t.oe eyes
of the world in reducing 9,000 of the army, by reason of the pot
change which had taken place in Ireland I and the present state of
the east of Europe; was an additional reason for reduction ; it: fact,
the cotintry being pow in a state of tranquillity, the people were
entitled to profit by that tranquillity.
NI. W. 8311TH had anticipated, from the extreme urgency of
the times, that Minions would have presaged to cfer a scheme tor
effecting a much larger reductica chi expenditure.
The question was then put and carried, that the Speaker should
have the chair.
ARMY ESTIMATES.
The house having resolved itself into a committee on the army
estimate.
take the liberty of submitting to ti:e consideration of the Louse iii
ii4rwilikl;lllVtasHk A
imposedl tD l
N(ionEhni6eim Lyanhlis osilitaCedial tdlulatyt,iiniewaroPu:l::l
proposed army estimates for the year 1830. In &frig so. he felt is
would be the clearer course, In the that instance, to state whit wee:
thew draifferr. eannedee,expirtithasvnofwaryeniwnlyto.thin:at,A j,etnestsi,mthaetersedouf
ctthinion
it had been found practicable to make, together with the savings ,if
expenditure in
He should commenet with the higher deparnitent—itamely, the office
those several departments accruing to the public
of Cominaredes.isi.Chici, mom particularly as the hon. 111C1111NT for
his uniform custom. he regretted to

Meateora.—witout, oentsary to
find absent fovea his plare—hed statedihnto. sedueiion only
• • ' office. That MMttrttr owners had
having mai aintintifises the We"
of Let year he the media departraert.
y, and he mould have Ite:=Fzito attract
number to the tact via de inoluc.
o the general Stall; which in the pteitvt.t
/mount 109.3474 for Englund ;ad Ire.
haelts. The office ol'ildiutaint-fikesural.
, dope* highly conducive to the good cos-
selidlesy, had, boweves„, in couiplisnee with
imp dastoutiottell, and that officer, in
I meritorious ate. and bis Powil ac•
eeduesime of the othie, on to bum a me-
* IN (Bear.) In the Wasudfice he
G% 400 his persona& °Wreathes. that
IMO 171112SOctsd (MOW tfficiabw! or
..111/8 WOWS. lON %NI. The bwelnet-,
clerks, and yet It was conducted and
the country than it was in 1787, when

Mr. Hume as M the eqpediency of reducing taxation; inn that had been attempted in off
honourable memba sansdeceived himself wilco be fancied that aho accused govemment of bs
the distress of the peWlis the 14/91010/$ and attl4l4l would be part of the reductions of W
by iddiryi .20 or. 8040 Q men to their number. He Now he was lumpy to say, aad
repeated that if there_„ w 4 lOYinlw who realty
_hrikEeed ihif the a.pintinn of On; hon.. Um&
sous icetypieekkwosup hors
'per to the worssusar sop, that sion nett boom nwslo 00 the
pereiWe 4,kft1a.,"*41 44 1" diwiPiwdoied,__ •te#447., tent pet wen. MI exceed to_ro
toot ivory opssi ars it, ?lajtcdOD to my tor is large s anng,, c*okt usivecism, el::. es Inctu
dillies be So an abse ucenecookity for' its existence t. before aidebbad biAltesto deteent
any iossOursa were Arced to reli3ve lot reticules - sod duet sod 9}0444 ;he *die
he amittid th
eme working .ckssen ought to be ' .lini alj the adgerclet4t,
_Of OW% be
lit.t.MK IA ben they ha.d no t
wo
1! 1° tp4 01/AlittioA of ktif 10011 sod e
rAlik
Lc*
Am*, It becime i e . they
to IM well Ai m tw to cbs wiesestst 101
l*W"hoPe oietwSio, at at. -e**4 The It°4looAll 1,19°1 ! Or "4.4 YI
seemed 'to fancy thlao, ~ . p iit. . tho totontio . qwwficiestrei,
produce imincose ir • 110 '
~ ihe was il= lip um hod ilem;
'the Idea r and thou lab others "coutandy regooted that mg. iy wecialbstam4eg. too
the country could not condone to pay the present Meta with the now required seventy-these ci
existing currency, it by no means followed that the people would be transacted at less expetce to ti