Star.
London, England, 1807-07-14 00:00:00

STATE OF THE CCWNTRY•

Mr. WHITBREAD brought up his bill for pro-
moting' and encouraging induliry amongll the La-
bouring Clafles, and for the better Regoldtion and
Relief .If the Neceffitous Poor.—Read a &II time.

On the queflinn that the bill be read a fecond time,
Mr. WHITBREAD exprefred his regret that he
Iltould not be able to bring forward the fecond read-
ing on the day on which he had at firft proptifed, be
caufe he felt himfelf in the fame fituation with fever al
other Hon. Members, who w be obliged to at.
tend their duties as Country Gentlemen, at the Qoar.
ter Sea-tons and at the Affizes. It would have been
his with, tNat the Bill Ihould proceed through its
fecond Ilage en the day which he had originally
propoled ; but, with a riew tu the duties which be

had to perform in his country, he.found it impallible
to fix the fecond reading of the bill for an earlier day
than Monday next. As many other Gentlemen, who
might wifh•tn take a (tare in the difcnti in of this
meafure, would feel themfelves in the fame fituation
with iiimfelf, he had the leis difficulty in propoting to
put off the dirt:ninon to that day. Being upon his legs
he wi(hed to lake that opportunity of adverting to
the very alarming lituation of public affairs, and
purling a quellinn to the Right Hon. Gentleman near
him—[Mr. Whitbread being then at the Minifle:ial I
file of the Houfe]—whether it was in the content-
plation of his Majefly's Mininers to fribmit an im•
mediate propofition to the Horace, founded upon the
dillrefling circumflances, in which the late calamitous
intelligence from the Continent !hewed the world in
general, and ihis country in particular, to be placed.
If any filch ptnpolition were intended, he trailed,
that it fhould not be brought forward without proper
notice, and that the Right Hon. Gentlemen oppofite
would not think of difculling a queiliora of fo much
importance, a large proportion of the Members
of that Houfe would be necentily abfent, but take
every means of procuring the fullell attendance of
Parliament.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER,
in reply to the Honourable Gendem in, role to do
that, which it had previoufly been his intention to do,
as loon as that Honourable Member fhould have fat
down, namely, to give notice on the part of his No-
ble Friend, the Secretary of State for War and Co-
lonies, to bring on a motion on Friday next, relative
to the Rate of the military defence of the country. He
ffinuld be forty, therefore, that the obfervations
which had fallen from the Hon-urable Getalemaa
fhould induce the Houfe to fuppofe, that Friday was
an inconvenient day for that purpole. He could fee
no reafon why his Noble Friend might not on Friday
open his plan to the Haufe, becaufe that plan could
not be carried into effect without a bill, in the //Arial),
Rages of which there would be frequent opprttini-
ties, during the cootie of next week, of diCknifing
its merits. But if it fhould be the feeling of the
Houle, or even the with of the Hon. Gentleman.
himfelf, that the motion of his Noble Friend lhould
be deferred to Monday, he had no hefitation to fay.
that his Noble Friend would not have any objedi in
to put off his motion to that day, though it was ex
tremely detirable, that even the fmall (pace of three
days fhotild not be log in bringing forward a lub•
jeet of In much impo'tance. If, on the contrary,
the Houle fhould feel that no inconvenience would
arife from having the general expofition of the plan
made on Friday. under an underilanding that it would
be to be diftniffed in detail, after the introduelion of
the meafure founded upon that expofition, he availed
himfelf of that occafion to give notice of the intention
of his Noble Friend, to bring forward the motion on
Friday. He had already Rated to the Noble Lord
oppofite (Lord Howick) the intention of his Noble
Friend, to bring forward an important quellion on
the fubjeet, to which the ritießion of the Honourable
Gentleman related, on Friday next, and he had the
authority of that Noble Gentleman, to fay, that
Friday would be a more convenient day to him for
having the fubjeet brought forward.
Mr. WHITBREAD, thoul,h defirous of being
prefent at all the Rages of fo important a quellion,
did not feel difpcifed to objeet to the courfe propofed
by the Right Hon. Gentleman. But he begged leave
to fubmit, whether the propofition of the Noble Lord
might not be made on Friday, and the d ifcuffion
upon it adjourned to the Wednefday following, in
which cafe the objea of the Noble Lord would be
attained by opening his plan on Friday, and there
would be only a delay of three days before the Houfe
would have to decide upon it.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
expreffed himfelf obliged to his Honourable Friend,
(if he would permit him fo Yo call him), for the manner
in which he had acceded to the comic he propofed.
In whatever way his Noble Friend fhould proceed,
the object of the Honourable Gentleman would be
anfwered, becaufe, whether the expofition were to
be made on Friday, or on a future day, the Honour-
able Gentleman would have an opportunity of dif-
culling the merits of the plan, when the Bill to he
founded upon it fhould be brought before the Houfe.
Mr.WHITB READ declared himfelf fatisfied with
the comic propofed, which had already been met with
the approbation of his Noble Friend (Lord Howick.)
The CHANCELLOR of the E.XCHEQUER.
then expreffed a wi(h, that his Right Hon. Friend,
the Secretary at War, fhould put off his motion rela
live to the further ERimates for the Army, which
flood for this day, until after the expofition of his
Noble Friend's plan nn Friday.
The SECRETARY at WAR acquiefced in the
with of his Right Hon. Friend, and put off his notice
to Friday next.
Lord HOWICK expreffed his entire acquiefcence
in the arrangement propofed by the Right Honoura•
ble Gentleman oppofite, and declared himfelf per-
fonally obliged
,to that Right Hon. Gentleman for
his early communication to him of the intention of
the Noble Lord, refpeeling the important motion
which he was to make on Friday. As the Right
Honourable Gentleman had defired the further Etti-
mates for the Army to be deferred until after the ex-
pofition of the plan to be brought forward on Friday,
it was to be inferred that that plan had fume refer-
ence to the Defence of the Country. He wifhed to
be informed, whether, as there was every appearance
of engagements having been entered into with foreign
, Powers, it was likely that any communication would
be made to the Houfe on the fubjeet of Inch engage-
pnents at an early day ? This quellion he put, be
' caufe he thought it important that the Houfe fhould
have fume intormation upon the fubjeel, that if the
Right Honourable Gentlemen oppofite fhould confi-
der it incompatible with their finfe of public duty to
• lgive an anfwer, he (Mould not prefs the matter fur-
ther.

Mr. Secretary CANNING replied, that undoubt-
edly certain engagements had been entered into with
foreign Powers, and that it had been the intention of
his Majelly's Miniffers not to fufFer Parliament to
feparate without making a communication upon the
Thefe engagements had, however, been
contingent, and Minilters had thought it better to
defer that communication for a thort time; in order
to afcertain whether the contingency upon which the
engagements depended would take place. It was
deemed datable. that the communication fhould be
made in the moll perfeet manner, and not fubjeft to
therontingency. But it never had been the intention

of his &raptly's Government to- (offer the prefent
faint) to elapfe, without making a communication
to Parliament ; and he had reafon to think, that be.
fore the conchaion of the prefent week, of early in
the nest week, he fhould have the authority of his
Majefly to make a communication on that fubjed to
the Hunk.

The Bill was then ordered to be read a fecrod
time on Monday next.

PAROCHIAL SCHOOLS BILL._

Mr. WHITBREAD moved the order of the day
for the fecond reading of the Parochial Schools Bill.
Mr. DAVIES GIDDY, after a fpeech of (tine
length againit the whole of the Hon. Member's plan
rcfpeCting the Poor, moved an amendment, that the
Bill he read a fecond time this day three months.
Mr. MORRIS difapproved of the local manner of
levying the Poor Rates, and laid that he Ihould
port the amendment.
Mr. ELLISON fuppnrted this amendment, on the
ground, that the operation of the Bill would he to
tax the landed intereft for the purpofes it had in view,
and that if the education of the poor was to he taken
up as a national objeCt, the expence ought to be de-
frayed nut of the general funds of the country.
Mr. STURGES BOURNE wilhed the plan to
(land over till the next Salon. It was advifahle,
that a proper education fhould be given to the poor.
He thought the bell provifion would be, to charge
the expense upon the; poor's rate, in proportion to
the wants, and the powers and the willies of the pa-
rilh ; rather than to make the matter the fulikst of an
cr•mpulfory charge. He dwelt very
feelingly upon the cruelties praCtifed upon parifh ap-
prentices, which were to be imputed principally to
the compulfory nature of the obligation to take them.
Sir SAMUEL ROMILLY argued flrongly, that
the Bill fhould go into a Committee, though lie did
not contend that it fhould be finally paired before the
next Sefton. The education of the poor would di-
minilh the ;diners of the poor, and confequently the
pool's rate.
Mr. ROSE wifhed the Bill to go into a Commit-
tee, to try if it could be made more perfeet. He
thought it defirable to teach the poor to read : of the
expediency of teaching them to write, he doubted ;
more than that, he was lure it would put them be-
yond their fituations, and would therefore be injuri-
ous.

Mr. LUSHINGTON recommended education as
the bell foundation of religion, morality, and induf-
try._

Mr. DUNDAS concurred in the principle of edu-
cating the poor in 'Scotland ; the parents of the chil-
dren paid a rate fixed by the magithates, in aid of
the parochial allowance, to the fchoolmatier. The
parochial allowance was defrayed by an affeffment
on the land.

Mr. SIMEON thought no good could be done by
going into the Committee.
Lord MILTON fpoke in favour of the Bill, which
he withed to be expedited by all pollible means.
Mr. WALKER. thought indifcriminate education
inexpedient, as tending to confound all ranks of
people.
Mr. WHITBREAD returned his acknowledge-
ments for the fisirit of candour with which the mea-
t-we had been treated in all parts of the Houfe. He
thought it his duty, after all the attention he had given
to the ftibjea, and all the pains he had taken to put
the Houfe and the Public in pofreffi,as of the relish
of his labours, to prefs for a decifion this Seffi n, at
leaf' upon the great principle, whether or Hot educa-
tion was a fource of induary, virtue, and prolperity,
and whether a-fyftem of general education ought to
be adopted in this country ? If this country continued
great and profperous, as be hoped it wouldl,a, fyllem
of general education would loon be difcerned robe of
the utmoft importance, and would, of sourfe, be
adopted. If good education was not fubtlituted,
mifchievous and wicked education would prevail, to
the great increafe of the public burthen,, and the
great depravation of public morals. It was for the
principle of a national education that he contended.
If the principle fhould be adopted he would be ready
to agree to every advifeable modification.
All the Members who had fpoken on the que-
tion explained.
The Marquis of TITCHFIELD thought much
benefit would refult from general educati as, but Paid
that benefit may colt too much. He wilhed therefore
for fome information as to the probable expenfe.
Mr. WHITBREAD could not fay how far the
patifhes may be provided with, or be deftitute of
buildings that may anfwer for fchools. In many
parifhes it would not be neceffary to expend a Chil-
ling on that account. Schoolmafters may be pro-
videdat a.verycheap rate.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
wiffied the Bill to go into a Committee, with a view
to the utmoa Writers of confrdcration. It was the
with, unqueflionably, of every one in the Houfe to
render the lewer claffes of the community better and
happier. He feared, however, that the kind of
education here propofed, though it may give learn-
ing, would not contribute much to diffule induftry,
religion, or morality. He feared a general legifla-
live efkablifhment, would injure and deltroy the vo-
luntary eflablifhments for public education now ex•
ifting. He recommended a commiffion of inquiry
to atcertain the (late of the charitable foundations
for public education already eaablifhed. A com-
miflion of that kind was already profecuting a fimi
lar inveaigation in Ireland, without any falary to
the commillloners, and with but very few clerks.—
When fuel) a commiffion fhould have afcertainect
what had been already dmie, it would be time enough
to inquire what further may be done. He defended
the principle of the Poor Laws. However the fyllem
may be abuftd, as every large fyllem mutt be liabk;
to abufe, it was a proud charadieriflic of the nation,
that charity was incorporated into the Legiflature.
The poor of this country had confequently an inte-
reit in the maintenance of its contlitution and inde-
peripience, which the people of no other country had.
He faid, the education propofed would difqualify the
perfons pnffeffing it from the molt neceffary and ufe-
ful defcriptinn of labour. The Qtlakers were men•
tinned as a Oafs univerlally educated. The example
ftrengthened his argument; for he never knew of an
Agricultural Q2aker. He wilhed the Bill to be
made as perfect as poffible, though he did not think
it advifable ultimately to adopt it, and without a
profpeek of ultimate adoption it would perhaps be
ufelefs labour to improve the plan.
Mr. SHAW LEFEVRE was for going into the
[Tura over.