Star.
London, England, 1812-12-12 00:00:00

if-the piper too* wai so depliehttedl _ _ iii. that -
thousand pounds of it would net purchase a quarts=
loaf ; yet, if by a penal law its denomination was sew
cured, no depreciation whatever could be allowed to
exist, He had however the admission of the R'ight
Hon. Gentleman himself, that in Ireland the paper
Currency was depreciated, because the guineas, in
that country, were disposed of at a discount. Now,
this depreciation took place in the interval between
the passing of this Act, in 1811, and their renewal of
it in the last Session, when it was first extended to
Ireland. And could any person attempt to main.,
rain that this depreciation, which existed before
the law was made applicable to Ireland, did sot'
equally exist afterwards ? Certainly, the Act could'
not produce such an effect. As a proof that the
paper currency was not in that sound state which
some Gentlemen contended for, he instanced the
circumstance of the Treasury having, last year,
sent out a quantity of Bank-notes to Canada, to
pay the army and establishments in that country.—
His Right Honourable Friend, he supposed, thought
that these notes would be held in equal estimation
with the public in Canada, as his Resolution set
forth they possessed in Great Britain. Whether the
wrappers in which they were enveloped, had this ce-
lebrated Resolution engraved on them, he could not
ascertain; but, when they arrived in Canada what
was their fate ? These Canadians, whose loyalty and
allegiance had been so deservedly praised by the
Prince Regent, in his Speech at the commencement
of the. Session, not being liable to any penalty for;
'the act,
,at once• set their own estimation on these
'notes, and disposed of them at a discount of about
thirty per cent.—(Hear, hear.) Now he would ask,
if the notes so transmitted then, were disposed of at
a discount, could they, on being returned to this
country, by the operation of the Bill then before them,
be immediately restored to par ? He supported the
first part of this Bill, but he never was an advocate
for the principles on which it was founded. Those
principles had been carried to a very great length by
many individuals, in both Houses of Parliament,
who seemed to think that the Bank Restriction
opened a new field and system of political finance.—
tie could not view it in this light—his reason for en-
tertaining this part of the Bill arose from a very dif-
ferent principle—it arose from a feeling of the neces-
sity
of the case, from thevery alarming state in which
the currency of the country now stood, occasioned
by the measure of the Bank Restriction being so long
continued—(Hear, Hear.) The part to which he al- i
lulled was that, which to all practical purposes, ren-;
dered Bank votes a legal tender—and perhaps it
would have been better, if a direct proposition to le-
galise such tender had been made. To the second di-
vision of the Bill, which went to prevent the disposal,
of the current Coin of the Realm for more than its
legal denomination, or of Bank notes for less, lie was
decidedly adverse. TLe Bill was originally intro.
duced in the other House of Parliament, with views
very different from those on which it had afterwards
received the support of his Majesty's Ministers—
Which were, to rescue the debtors throughout the
country from an undue severity. The object of the,
Noble Earl who proposed it was to introduce hook-,
entries, which should at once supersede the necessity
of Coin or of Bank notes ; and the Ministers adopted
so much of the Bill as would protect the debtors,
placed as they were, by the Bank Restrictions, in a
most awkward situation. They interfered to the ex-.
tent of preventing any creditor from insisting on that
"good and legal payment" of his debt (that is, ip,
current coin) which it was not in the power of the
debtor to make. In originating this demand, the
Noble Lord (King) had done what he certainty had
-a right to do; but then, the matter came to this, that
what he required every other 'creditor in the country
had an equal right to demand—and he had the au-,
thurity of the Noble Lord himself for saying, that
this would be a most unjustifiable proceeding. In the
notice to his tenants, he spoke only of leases exe.
cuted before the passing of the Bank Restriction Act;
and therefore allowed that those whose rents were
raised, in consequence of the depreciation of paper,
by that Act, and who were paid through that depre-
ciated medium, ought not to be called on for any ad-
dition. If the system had been pursued, the man
who had deposited £lOOO in notes with his Banker
in the morning, might be called on in an hour to pay
in cash ; and, by this means many persons would be
placed at the mercy of those who entertained malice
against them. This was a state in which the country
could not be left—and he was surprised that Gentle-
men should have opposed the whole Bill, as utterly
unnecessary. On that ground alone, because lie
clearly saw the necessity, did he approve of the first
'part of the Bill. But there were many public cre-
ditors who had advanced hundreds of millions for the
service of thee country, and who, since the Bank Re-
striction, were placed in the same situation with
every individual in the kingdom, receiving their di•
vidends in Bank notes ; and he would ask, was it pos.
sible that those who had trusted to the honour and
faith of the public, should be left in so disadvantageous
a situation? Parliament, it was true, might not
have interfered, but it would have been most un-
justifiable, and would have placed the country in
a state of danger. If they had not passed the first
part of this Bill, which protected the debtor, they
must have repealed the law, which prevented
the public creditor from receiving his dividend in
.Bank notes, and Bauk notes only ; or, in other
words, they must have. opened the Bank—it was a
matter of option, and he supported that course which
-seemed least likely to create mischief; but, in giving
'that support, be was notinfluenced by any approba.
Lion of the principles on which the Bill was founded;
y were contrary to the laW of the country, and
tould only be justified by necessity. The second
part of the Bill was no less a violation of the princi-
.ples of law and justice, without being founded on
any necessity whatever.- It had an effect the very
-1114
reverse of what was intended by those who supported
it. Let the House look to the experience of the last
2.15 months. Did this part of the Bill effect that
which was contemplated ? Did it occasion guineas
to pass corrent at their current rate ? Can any gen-
tleman state, an lastance of one being passed at the
;ate established by the King's Proclamation I On
.the contrary, it had driven all the guineas, crowns,
half-crowns,- and even shillings (except those which
Isere very 'much debased) out of circulation. It was
clear that it die! i?,ot preclude individnal,s from dis-
posing of their gutu,eas at the highest price they could
f rocnre. ple-4,1y was evaded every day ; and the

*l3, ease in Which it eotild penal was, where per- ,
tons were seduced by those who were particularly
employed for the purpose, and then prosecuted, and
involved in the penalties of the Act, through the cun-
ning of others.—(Hear, bear).—Some convictions of
shat kind, he believed, had taken place. It was
diesofore most evident, that any man; to spite of this
law, might sell his guineas, or crown-pieces, for
What he supposed they were worth, without any fear
of detection. Some millions of guineas had been
exported to France and other countries, since the
first introduction of the Bill—not for want of exer-
tions to prevent such exportation, but because it was
as impossible to execute this law, as that against
melting down the coin of the realm. The ancient
law of the country prohibited, most Ineffectively, the
melting down or exporting the current coin—and now
they superadded to these, a law, the direct operation
of which was, to give a premium of 25 per cent. to
(every man disposed to export or melt dawn the me,
tallic currency. For, if guineas disposed of in
i France procured a return on England of 25 per cent.
more than they would produce here, it must act as
a temptation to those possessing that species of coin,
to send them abroad ' • and, on the other hand, if the
guineas were melted down, the owner would realise
an equal profit for his bar of gold.—lf this law did
not cause exportation; there was but one other effect
tat could be produced by it—that of inducing people
to hoard their gold. This certainly could -not be
looked upon as an advantage—it was, on the con-
trary, a very great evil, and was so denominated by
every writer on political economy. At the present
moment, it was an evil of more than ordinary mag.
nitude, when the Government were endeavouring
to procure those supplies of bullion which were ne-
cessary for the army in the Peninsula, and the want
of which had operated not only to the general dis-
advantage of our forces there, but had occasioned
great difficulties to many of the officers employed
on that service. Yet, at such a moment, they were
enacting a law, which must induce men either to
hoard their gold, or to send it out of the country.—
He never heard any ground of necessity alledged for
this part of the Bill. Perhaps it was intended to
support his Right Hon. Friend's third Resolution ;
or to prevent two prices in the sale of articles.—
Now, would there be any great evil, if there were
two prices ? For his own part, he knew of none.—
Two prices existed in this country in former times :
for instance, in the reign of King William, when, in
consequence of the debasement of the silver. currency
(the measure, at that period, of all the commodities
of life) the golden currency was raised to a greater
value, in reference to that debasement. Guineas
were not then tied down to one price, but rose with
the depreciation of silver ; and two prices (not in the
common acceptation of the word) took
-place—that
is, the silver coin having been debased, a guinea
would procure a greater quantity of goods than 22
of those inferior shillings. In the same way, before
the passing of this Bill, every thing was measured in
Ireland by the standard of guineas, which were•ae a
premium, while notes were at discount—of course, a
purchaser- with gold procured more goods than he
who tendered a nominal sum in paper. And it could
not be denied, that the moment the Legislature-
smade Bank-notes, as they had virtually done, a legal
tender, the gold and good silver disappeared ;—and
i guineas were now, like foreign coins, measured by
their intrinsic, not their stipulated value. The Ho;
nourable Gentleman then adverted to the Portuguese
paper, which he admitted was at a discount ; but, as
!no Legislative protection was afforded to it, as was
the case here, the metallic currency of that country
had not vanished like ours. And this enabled us to
provide, though inadequately, for the wants of our
army in the Peninsula. For all the reasons he had
stated, and because it appeared to him that the, se-
cond part of the Bill was not founded on any neces-
sity, and only encouraged the exportation of our coin,
he thought the House should confine themselves to
the provisions l.y which the public creditor, who was
compelled to take Bank-notes, was protected—and
by which, relief was also afforded to the great body
of debtors throughout the country.
Mr. ROSE said he had not heard that any Bank-
notes had been sent to Canada. If there had, how-
ever, he was at a loss to conceive how they could
have been depreciated 30 per cent. since they cer-
tainly were as good, and better, than private bills, ►
being payable at sight, and certainly security supe-
rior to any private bills. The Right Hon. Gentle-
man then adverted to what had been said of the
Bank renewing its cash payments, and contended,
that an attempt at such a measure would be ruinous
under the present circumstances, since it would be
impossible to procure cash to pay with. It was ridi-
culous to talk of coining geld. Whilst gold conti-
nued so much above the Mint price, no addition
could be made to the coin in' circulation. Guineas
might be coined, but they would no sooner issue from
the Mint than they would find their way to the melt-
ing-pot. His Hon. Friend had said no harm could
arise from there being two prices. He (Mr. Rose)
foresaw the greatest inconvenience which would arise
from such a circumstance, since the public rreditor,•
who was under the necessity of receiving the note for
120 s. might be obliged to pay it away for 18s. 16s. or
15s. according to the price of gold. With respect to
ithe gold going out of the kingdom, he (Mr. Rose) ,
did not conceive it was sent out by the fraudulent
trader, but rather, that its being sent out of the king-
dom arose principally from the balance of trade be-
ing generally against us. The Right Hon. Gentle-'
then took a review of the state of the exchange
and the issue of Bank-paper at different periods, and
from it contended that the issue of Bank-paper had
no effect whatever on the state of exchange or the
price of bullion. _The effect of the present Bill cer-
tainly could not be to force gold out of the country,
although it might have little to do with keeping it in.'
It would, however, in his opinion, prevent the evil of
two prices, and therefore it should have his support.
Mr. PRESTON supported. the Bill, and contend-
ed, that the price of land and its productions had kept
~pare with the rise in the price of bullion. A fixed
standard was absolutely necessary ; and he saw no
impropriety in taking the Bank-notes, as such, at a
standard, as no depreciation in their value had been
found in contracts, nor in any of the,purposes of; the
Inland trade.
Mr. PRONtIEROE took notice of the conduct of
Lord King, s calling on his tenants to pay-their
rent in guineas # and observed, that his condAet made
it nt'Assary to re a Bill like this, because it was the

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v:Ganeftoor;noyurrtwglitddpcesioaainPrTrcetwaitiiit
duty of the Legislature to
the country, than whom there was not a aloie atter;.
ing set of men, nor any men who more hardly
their income ; and he never could consent to see thee
reduced to the condition of West India slaves, white
would be the case, it their happiness were to dew
on the caprice of any landlord, who might ha •
re Itia
his power to seize their goodsand • '
imprison &it p
sons.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUEjt
spoke in explanation.
Mr. WHITBREAD said, the Right Hon. Gat.
was
Human eao; msu
blwadun.
wrong;
bo
hee
gl ,m 1;
had received a letter from Bath, which stated, tali
potatoes
In the saco
vs.
Circulation, isnwioed: sold
becauseero
tfeaod,r,ti
vicgwa
predicament. p e
otaufisendt4itwerePrictilli
greater value than people dared to give fee um"
He was surprised to hear it said by a loefted eft
dean (Mr. Preston) that a contrast grade h d '
a 11101
been insisted to be paid in gold. The contrary w•
happened in many instances, and where the gold leas
not forthcoming the contract was void. A great deli
had been said by different Members, throwing ,
blame on Lord King for having given the to sky
Bill. That Lord King's determination to ea/we aye •
k payment of his rents, where held on long kw; I*
the express provision of being paid in gold, human
made a pretence for this Bill, he believedwutrue;
and in those cases of express contract, Lord Kin¢
had a light to insist on payments in gold. lid
Lordship, however, was known to be as him*
.and just a landlord as any man in the Engem;
.and it never was his intention to demand pay.
pont in gold of the generality of his teniuus.—.
.He had not, as some Honourable Members et;
pressed it, endeavoured to distress an industrious yore.
inanry ; the man he had selected happened to be
~Bank Director, who for many years had been ma
ceiving a great benefit from the depreciation of papses
while Lord King had so long greatly lost by it..,, •
Above all, Lord King had been most usjustly as.
tacked, in imputing to him the intention of sediticie
or oppression. In respect to the gold coin, lobed.
information to give the Chancellor of the Exchequer
—he had to tell him that the *praCtice -of idling
guineas was general. He had several letters topic!.
it, and this Bill induced people to hoard them *
that purpose, Which completely took them out age,
neral circulation, and thus they passed into the •
of exportation. The Chancellor ef the Exchequer .
had confessed he dared not to buy guineas, becuse
this Act was against his doing io. 'He had, howeeni •
letters to shew, and was desired to communicate thee
to the Chancellor of the Exchequer, by which it see
peared that large quantities of guineas us et#
bought in Liverl at the price of 275. and 2184. see& ,
and sent to London by almost every coach. Ye the
Chancellor of the Exchequer lost the benefit of !7,000
guineas, because it was against this law. He cease
get them at 21s. because they are worth more; tad.
for that reason our army in Portugal are to be in the
greatest distress for specie, and in fact to go widget
it, though in the most absolute wain of it, beeilutdl
House *ill pass a law that paper and guinerateedt
the same value. Whether they passed the Bill or
not, he was certain gold wouldaltraya .fiat **et;
and if not sold here, it would be sent abroeck
Mr. HERBERT (of Kerry) said, that though he
had many leases on his mates, he bad, dating the
course of a tolerable long life, been always ready to
receive his rents its Bank notes, because he had evee
found, that for all domestic purposes, a Bank note
and a shilling were equal to a guinea. He Moulds
therefore, support the Bill.
Sir E. MAY supported the peseta system, as oafs
ficient to support the credit and character of the cam-
try ; and asked Mr. Whitbread, whether all the affairs •
of his counting-house did not go on just as well moo
as when guineas were in circulation ?
Mr. 'W. SMITH opposed the Bill, on the saall
ground taken by Mr. Whitbread. He said, that .
while he was in Norwich, he was told of a man who
was said to be connected with Government, whores
Bs. for 7s. pieces, and 265. and Vs. for a guinea.--
This man continued carrying on this traffic therefor
a considerable time. The inference he drew from it,
yas, that there were two prices, for surely when the.
people of Norwich knew they could get six or seven
shillings advantage by a guinea in gold, and not one
farthing by a Banknote and a shilling, they would
not fail to sell their guineas at such advanced price,
instead of paying them away for necessary articles at
the rate of 21s. If they got 275. for a guinea in.
gold, they could purchase so many more articles ef
necessity as amounted to the difference, which clearly
proved that a Bank-note and a shilling were not only
not equal to a guinea, but that there was an actual
depreciation of six shilling!.
Mr. STEPHEN was not prepared to say ',Whet
the currency was or was not depreciated :—but how.'
ever this might be, if, as was stated, there were two.
rices, he thought the Bill became merely a distriba:
doss of necessary justice to the public creditor.
•-; Mr. GURNEY expressed his astonishment aids
declaration of the Chancellor of the Exchequer, that
ftl and 26 shillings were equal in value. It had been
said, that the extent of our commerce was the cause
of the insufficiency of metallic currency; but, in his
opinion, the real ground of the connection berween
.the Bank of Eng Lind and the Government, and the
various measures which have been consequent thereat.
up to the present time, was, the incapacity of the,
latter to discharge the interest of the national debt,
which had so prodigiously increased in specie.
The Report was then agreed to; and,. on a awe.
made .that the Bill be read a third time tamsonow!
Mr. WHITBREAD strongly objected • 7=
it so soon, and that on a day when so few
Preee°64
usually attended. It was, an indecorous
to bring Members down. on, a•Ainetuday, in them*
part of the Session.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER
had no objection to put off-the third leading tolmadr
for Monday.—This was ordered accordingly..
Mr. WHITBREAD then mated, that theldfleil
•
should, at its rising, adjoatn M 0544..
The SPEAKER said, many Orders had.
been fixed for to-morrow.—The motion via:
Adjourned to this day.,
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