Star.
London, England, 1823-04-29 00:00:00

' f he alter:ativf, he thought that Ministers, in the
ichoice which they had made, had acted wisely, and
n accordance with the general feeling of the Coun-
try. Hewas pleased with the whole course of Con-
duct pursued by Ministers, because he believed our
policy to be strict neutrality. if it had been other-
wise, we should now.have been obliged to increase
our taxes to enable us to embark, in the contest. He
saw nothing in the present stator of Europe to war-
rant us in going to war, and even if France should
overrun Spain her possessicn of that country would
be hut temporary. He had heard such goadings used
to Ministers at the commencement of the Session,
which made him fear that they would allow them-
selves to be driven into the war. He would con-
clude, therefore, by moving as an Amendment, to
leave out all the words in the Motion, after the pa-
ragraph, stating that the House had taken into its
most serious consideration the Papers which had been
laid before it by his Majesty's gracious command, for
the purpose of substituting the following:
• To assure his Majesty of our entire concurrence in the prin-
ciples which his Majesty has repeatedly declared with respect to
interference in the internal concerns of independent nations, and
in his Majesty's just application of those principles, in the course
of the late negotiations, to the case of Spain.
" To acknowledge with gratitude his Majesty's earnest and
unwearied endeavours to preserve the peace of Europe.
" To express our deep regret that those endeavours have
proved unavailing; and, while we rejoize that his Majesty has
not become a party to a war in which neither honour, nor treaty,
nor the welfare of his Majesty's dominions requ.red his•slajesty
to engage; to assure his Majesty that, highly as we estimate the
advantages of peace, particularly at the present moment, we
shall be at all times ready to afford his M tjesty our must zeal-
oils :aid affectionatJ support in any me:tsur.s which his Majesty
may find necessary to tun the oblGittons of national faith, to
vindicate the dignity of his Crown, or to maintain the rights and
interests of his People."
Mr. T. WILSON seconded the Amendment. Ile
concurred with hii Hon. Friei.d in thinking that Mi-
nisters had acted with great prudence; and, in say-
ing so, he was sure he was speaking the opinion of a
large proportion of his Constituents. He thought our
policy gave us the only chance of being able to inter-
fere to save both France and Spain from the perilous
danger in which they were now placed. He there-
fore would say, that-Ministers deserved the thanks
of the country. Ile could not come to the conclu-
sion that we should have been able to preserve the
peace of Europe by threatening war. He u as
not to be understood as taking the part of France,
whose conduct he looked at almost with exe-
' cration. But nevertheless we were not to be the ar-
biters of the opinion of all the world. He disliked
expressions of asperity and sarcasm towards countries
who had been our Allies, and might be so again. It
WAS our object to husband our resources and energies,
but at the same time to preserve our honour and dig-
nity. He was sure that Ministers would receive the
support of the country if the honour. or interest of
Britain should be attacked.
The Motion and Ainendment having been read
from the Chair,
Mr. HO.I3HOUstE hoped the House would bear
with him while he eipressed the sentiments which he
felt--the sentiments which he believed to be enter-
tained by every educated Englishman in the country
upon this question ; be hoped he should be excused
while he stated what he felt to be the gross failure of
our late negotiations, and the deep degradation to
which this country had been reduced by the conduct
of the Right Honourable Secretary for Foreign Af-
fairs and his colleagues in office—( Heir, hear).—
No felt the fUll sense of this degradation, but' while
he did so, he could not help congiatulating hiMself
and the House at finding that neither the Honourable
Member who moved the Amendment (Mr. S. Wort-
ley), nor the Honourable.Mernber (Mr. T. Wilson),
tt ho seconded it, had tainted their ears with that de-
grading language (and lie was sorry that, according to
the forms of the House, he could allude to it in no more
open terms) which had been held in another place—
Hear, hear). Our Ministers had every principle and
every feeling of Englishmen in their favour in op-
posing (if they had opposed) the acts of the despots
who sat at Verona, and who attempted to seal the
destinies of Europe—(Hear, hear, hear).- But they
had not done so; it was, however, some consolation
to find that neither the Hon. Mover of the Amend-
ment, nor his Hon. Supporter, had ventured to say
that Engla-nd dared not to make use of the language
of reproof and remonstrance at the aongress of Ye-
rona—(Cheer,O. Fortunately the Hon. Members had
held no such language, indeed their observations were
generally such as he might have expected from his
own side of the House, were.it not that by some per-
verse accident, they arrived at conclusions totally un- !
connected "with their premises—( Hear, and laughter).'
With this trifling exception both the Honoorable
Members had spoken boldly out as Englishmen ought !
to do. The Hon. Member for the City of London
(Mr. T. Wilson) had, it was true, complained of the
strong and irritating language (as he designated it)
used by the Hon. Member who made the motion.
Nov he (Mr. flobhouse) would be glad to hear any
expression more strong, more pointed, more etfieaci.
ous, or more full of indignation, than the teim " ete-
cration,w used by the Hon. Member in condemning
the invasion of Spain by France. (Cheers.) . For his
part he could say, that neither himself nor hicfriends
wished to make use of any' stronger or more expres-
sive language; and he co7uld assure the House, that if
the Hon. Member- would only, fbllow up this lan-
guage by a correspondent vote, the-City of London
Could not have- a fitter Representative of its feelings
and it's- interests. (Hear, After, and: a lenrgC) The Hon.
'Member (Mr: T.-Wilson) said he felt confident that
he expressed the opinions of a majority of his consti- 1
lueutspio stating. that he was sully satisfied with the!
'ica.siaduct of his Itlejestals-Ministers.-iitldr. T. Wicaosi '
(itertk4 the-table); I said a-large- proportion of my
constituentsa W. licitshouse proceeded. He begged
pardon if -he hiacethistaken the Hon. Member. Be I
could, however, gat% that he (Mr. Hobliouee) re-
presented a much larger portion of the Metropolis
than the Honourable Member, and be was convinced
.that. notwithstanding the exertions which his cousti-
iiients had mail during the late expensive and pro-
tracted war—notwithstandin4 the heavy burdens
Which they were now bearing (not owing to any
faults of their own, but to those of others, over whose
(actions they had no controul).—still he could venture
to say, that when the liberties of Europe were me-
nicedr-when the honour of England was attacked—:
nee-ed i
hof all independent States was.
raced,
the recur sty
edu
.ih
ow l
constituents would b I
e the first to come
forward in support of the character and interests of ,I
the 'country, and is defence oldie liberties and iade-.1

penance of Europe--(Jeer).-4111- did • not wish to
'be misunderstood open this pois*" -11 e-rd not mean
say that his constituente_irereoneeoyozo support
any Ministerial war which • titighosa wetted into;
Air the purpose of obtaining this or -that province-o'
for the purpose of obtaining the-naviption sif
the. Scheldt—or in order to recover this or that
Swiss Canton ; but he did mean to say, 'halo*,
the event of any war against the Tyrant Kings of
Europe, the People would undoubtedly go hand.
in-hand with Ministers in support of such a • war.
These were his sentiments, and, he believed, those of
his constituents also. But had he the misfortune to
stiffer from his eonstituents, still he should say that
ire was proud of entertaining such send:rams, and,
that sooner than relinquish them, lie would at once
(proud as he was of the honour it conferred upon him)
—resign his seat in that House—(Hear, hear),The
Hon. Member then entered into an elaborate eiami-
nation of the Documents presented to the House, re-
:ative to the late negotiations. He contended th.-E
San Miguel's dispatch complained that we hid not
exerted our influence in behalf of Spain; and flee
she expected us to do something more than sirn- ,
plc and abstract justice. The truth was, th.i,t the
dispatch of San Miguel was a direct attack and
charge against our Ministers, and stamped their
conduct with indelible disgrace—(flenr, hear).::-
The Right Honourable Gentleman lord followed that
degrading policy which had been pursued by our Go-
vernment over what had been fakely called the ge-
neral pacification rf Europe.. Instead of median:4g
as a friend for Spain, we sent Lord Fitzroy Somerset
to Madrid with a Mornorondrim of the Duke of
Wellington, containing nothing preserving the na-
tional sovereignty of the Spanish People. It hactbeen
said that the Duke had a right to give advice to
Spain; but he should like to know whether he bad
not also aright to give advice to France, and that
Ungrateful family to which he had done services quite
equal to those he had done for Spain? His Grace
offcre.i the mediation of this country by redressing
the grievances of Englan• I, and by securing the safety
of the King and Royal Family. He thought we had
nothing to do with the King ; our Ministers never
thought of the People. This arose from that cursed
monarchical principle, as it had been expounded by
the-Despots of Europe. Nothing Could be expected
from the Congress of Verona but still further en-
croachments on the libertyof independent nations.—
In their circular, issued at TrapPau, they said they
looked at the changes in Spain, and those in Naples,
in the same light; and how was it possible for the
Right Hon. Gentleman tetlaink.thet SPaie was not
to be•a proininent ppint ofdise-usision at Verona ?. No
man thought that Italy was the real subject of dis-
cussion. The Congresstaset about Spain, and that was
known to all ;"but', be believed, that at the bve-oklng
tip of the Congress a war with Spain was no intended.
But that farmed no muse for the Eight-Hon. Gen-
tleman. The Right Hon. Gentleman had to play
one of the most important parts that ever belonged to
a British Statesman. He (Mr. Hobhouse). wished to
speak with much delicacy of the late Lord London-
derrye but he believed it was the universal opinion.
that the present state of Europe was mainly to be
ascribed to the politics of that unfortunate Nobleman.
The iiiesest hopes hall' been formed upon tlae acces-
sion of the Right Hon. Gentleman to office; and the
friends of M. de Montmorency and othershed held
SHI the Right Hon. Gentleman as a Radical-(rilemih.)
He (Mr,:liobliousej really hoped that something was
going to be done. But the' Right Hon. Gentlemen
had fairly told the House that he was to tread in the
steps pf his predecessor He did not think that the
late Marquis of Londonderry wouldhaie acted like
the Right Finn. Gentleman, who bad appeared to be
the friend of Spain, only to degrade her. • The Mar-
quis of Londonderry would have clearly and•dis-
tinctly said, in the event of the Allies pursuing their
designs against Spain, " I shall go home, and lay the
case before the. British Parliament." He was amazed
that the Right Hon. Gentleman could have supposed
for a monarut that the Spaniards would consent to a
modification of their Constitution. He could recal
to the Right Honourable Gentleman the conduct he-
pursued in reward to Spain, in 1808: though an at-
tempt had been made to separate between the state
of Spain then and now. The Honourable Gentle-
man hire cited a passage from the Dispatches of the
Right Honourable Gentleman, in which he strongly
censured the application of the term Insurgents,
to the universal Spanish nation—(Hear, hear).—
That was at the time of the conferences at Erfurtli.
The same language ought to have been held now as
when the Right Hon. Gentleman stated that the King
could no longer look on Spain as an enemy but as an
ally. The- sentiments then avowed were worthy of
perpetual imitation. It might be said,that we were
then at war with France, but now we were in alliance
uith her. These might be a difference in point of in-
terest, but none in point of honour. With respect to
the prospects of the Spanish Patriots in 1808 and
1898, he was of opinion that the present prospects
were by far the most promising. When the Revulu-*
tio.n broke out in 1808, there were Iso,ooo Fr ench-
men south of the Ebro, and sixty thousand French
soldiers in Madrid and its. vicinity; but in Two
MONTHS after the Revolution broke out, not a single
.Frenchman was to be found south of the Ebro.—
Such was the effect of the brave and glorious efforts
of the Spaniards in 1808. All he would say now
was, that he would join with the Right Honourable,
Gentlemen in fervently praying for the assistance ofl
Heaven on behalf of the cause of the Spaniards. Whe-
ther that cause should fall or triumph, I hope (said
the Hon. Member) that an English House of Com-
mons will this night chew to the world that it appre-
ciates our national character—that it appreciates the
ancient glories of England, and that it shall restore
us to the proud and honourable situation we once
held,—that Of the friend and patron of the liberties
of mankind. (Cheers.)
Sir W. DE CRESPIGNIi said, that no man felt
more strongly than he did for the cause of Spain, but
at the same time, he could not forget the safety of
England. England had expended 600 millions in
putting up
-the Bourbons; was she now to be called
on to expend 600 millions more in putting them ddwn?
Mr. BANKES contended, that England ought not
to hold out a menacing tone, unless she was deter-
mined to follow it up by going to war. He consi•
dered the aggression of France to have proceeded
from nothing less than infatuation—he looked upon it
:as a monstrous aggression•—he believed chat there was
but one sentiment on that subject in the House slid

A A•).::

-3. •

• tile country at large--. 2 sentiment of strong Amd
inarkedin4reittlsistiggi • •
•
me Heseeeehle.hivenher for .‘Vesttiiini,t*„.l444.
said that the people of Estland would willtniti
the bushes: •of war where the honpur i.f EnglanA
Iftequised it—the Ameutitiiiat which lipid bein atoned
had embraced the giatg tentitAent. bold Oat
the issue of the coritest wiaild I>e f•tentirath* for
1 Spain, and treat just piiniAiment might f4ll upon the
heads of the authors ill that mobs tittllcoly• and un-
-1 principled aggression--•-pieers).
Mr. 114 !LING said the 0103:11 !;711 Orr ixPnigd
war front the conduct of Ministers t an ele' would have been
from a hens and manly remonstrance--Olear, hear) —At the
close of the war great differences of *Vision ntestAtavelsrevalledi
but it apprzrect ;tow, in the ease of Spain along no different!,
of wAi; to be .It was not fair in Ministers to
assert that we had no alternative. betiv,en price and war. It
Was admitted on all hands tit_, this country *as bound to de-
Czt,d Portugal; but should the French succsad in Spain, could it
I.e supplied that they would allow the same Constitution to con,
rinse in Portikzal ? In Pt it eveut, what became of our neutralirg?
The conduct of Francs should have been stopped at the begin-
ning at Verona. He was, at the same titre, fully aware of the
importance of maintaining peace. But if the military spirit of
France was raised, It WAS impos.ible to ray where it might stop.
Ihe negotiations on the patt of the British Government be-
trayed the strongest want of understanding. Such had been the
fears of the Allied Powers of the yrrialence of liberal opinions,
that they. had abandoned the whole of their former policy.
Muslin had become indifferent to Turkey, and Prussia and Austria
had combined. •
Lord F. GOWER would blame say Power that should join
sze:licr for the detriinent of a third. The conduct of the French
Government appeared to him to partake of insanity; though. at
one time, he believed they were desirous of backing out. What-
ever might be the result of the War, he could not consent to
censure Ministers for doing all the Spaniards wished there to do.
The Noire:. Lord shortly referred to the note of the fluke of
Wellington to the Spanish Government, and contended there was
nothing in it which could b.: considered ae offensive to the Spa-
niards, He declaredlac should wate for the motion of the Hon.
Member fur Yorkshire.

Mr. WI LBERFORCE saki, looking through the Papers, he
thought no man could fail ti see, from beginning to end, a strong
desire prevalent in the mind of our Government to preserve
peace ; but, whilst he acknowledged this, he was bound to rayi
he could not but regret, that, from the firs., we had not as-
sumed a higher moral tone. It was not sufficient for *us to
have said—" We' will not join you ;7 but we should, from the
first, have strongly remonstrated against the course they were
about to adopt—( fear,' hear). The British Ministers bad, at
the same time, another point to attend to,--th tt was, to take care
that we did nothing whereby to eaceurage Spain to an impolitle
resistance. Looking to their conduct throughout, he could not
but believe, however they might hAvcerred—th,t they had con.
sciemiously aeted with the best intention ; and therefore h#
could not concur in the Address which had been proposed, nor
wad he altogether support the Amendment.
Mr. H. SUMNER thought the line of policy adopted by the
late Lord Londonderry was that which it was the interest of
this country to adopt. It had been adopted and acted upon by
his Majesty's !Government ; and he could not refrain fr,xn ex-
pressing his gratitude to them for having done so, and giving
them the praise due to them for their consistency. It had been
said, that we must ultimately be drawn into the contest. It
tMght be so ; but it it was to be so, be would say with the Right
Hon. Secretary for Foreign Aflairs, let. us be drawn into it as
late as possible. He concluded by ►upporting the Amendment.
Herr the cry of " Adjourn " became kzeneral, and
Several Members at the same time exclaimed " Go on."
Mr. P. MOORE rose to move that the debate be adjourned
till to-mon ow.

Mr. MONCK seconded the motion, awl the debate was aJ-
journed accordingly.
The other Orders were disposed of, and the Rouse adjourned
at Twelve o'Cluck.

MORE OPINIONS OF EARL GREY
ON THE MEANS AND DISPOSITION OF THE SPA-
N IA RDS TO RESIST THE FRENCH, April tH,1009.

" We have a right to expect froth Ministers to
shew us that they had sufficient and satisfactory„jn•
formation to justify them in the hopes herd eitto up
~
to aid the resistance of the riatiotithai they
have been looking to the affairs of Spain with thb
eyes of Statesmen. In otderto maintainthepltimato
contest which is to thicide'forsver the power and its-
depeueence of this country, the true policy of those•
who govern it must.be to pay a strict attention to
economy—to be actuated. by a deter urination to con-
centrate your means—not to endanger them in any
epterprise, or .:peculation, of which the event is doubtful.
" I gave Ministers.credit for this—that they would
not of thernselves willingly du anything to excite
.those passions which were necessary to he re:bane:l
and least of all to hold outrhopes sit/hick were /rajas-
hy Acts. We cannot forget the Magnificent aoi,
counts which were circulated at the time or the re-
sources of •Vain, of the enthusiasm anal spirit of the
people, of the vast armies they had collected, and
with which, k was effected, they would chive the
French beyond the Pyrennees. We heard. then, of
nothing but the spirit and enthusiasm of the Spa-
niards. I hive looked for proof of this in vain. I
find Lord WILLIAM BENTINCK. soon after his arrival
at Madrid, sensiing accounts of the state of the army
highly unfavourable—that the
.greatest da.iger was
to be apprehended Irons their inability to contend
with the French ; and that their armies were in a
state.oftotaf disorganization. By the letters of Ge.
naval Beata and General Moons, we find that spirit
which was supposed to be so universal, and which to
be successful must be persevering, had wholly au&
sided. Sr' Jonas &loons states, that he had heard of
enthusiaim,..bot he had met with it nowhere ; that
the first reverses checked it ; and that he had not
been able to collect any grounds to justify the sin-
guine hopes which had been formed. •
" I ask what credit can be given to his Majesty's
-Ministers for deliberately holding out to the People
of England such sanguine hopes of the ultimate suc-
cess of the exertion of the people of Spain? •
44 That an ebullition of enthusiasm and spoutene,
ous- resistance on the part of the people of Spain
broke out at once, is not to be disputed ; but it was
stated ih a letter from the Secretary for the War De-
partment, that it was not a sudd..ll ebullition of rage
that was to be looked to, upon the continuance of
which we could not depend with certainty, but a per-
severing spirit of patriotism—a spirit calculated to
carry the people through a long and difficult contest.
" His Nlijesty's Ministers should have been satis-
fied not only of the existence of a proper spirit ti.e
people, but that there was a arroernmeit in that man-
eey which had acquired sufficient autisotito tctiOni it
the.necessary energy. It neither of these thiags.ss.
isted, or if the one existed without the other,.it, was
die very acne of mane:sin his Majeaty's Ministers to
bivish, as they have done, the;vsen cotiort.2.

The forthcoming new Pans of LAS CAU*' Jour-
nal will contain, we understand, amens a variety
.of other co-
rious mitten, NATOLIOII.I own 'claim of his refs:Jaren' Rib:,
and arrival et Paris; also of his escape Wan sops; letprc-
iects had he returned as conqueror from the lavish:es el Rawls ;
plan for a Political [Mem., of Narotocus, sketched bir hinesif ;
curious Anecdote, of Madame de Sun • true caw ot her
exile, ate.

. . ~~-