Star.
London, England, 1802-12-16 00:00:00

condescend to tread in the neps-of their ancellorsi
upon fimitar occaftons, and conform to the eftab-'
tithed iivadice of Parliament. In every former
inftance they required information ; and adequate
explanation as to the reafons and caufes, always
accompanied the reqtrifition. As things flood they
were abandoned entirely to conjedure ; and they
might be ftrongly inclined to think that fome ma-
terial change had taken place, when they recol
leeted what was paired about the clofe of last Sef-
lion as an adequate eflablifhment, and compared
it with what was demanded at prefent. The Noble

Earl then adverted to the recent occurrences on
the Continent, the acquifitions to the territories
of France, and the affairs of Switzerland, refpe6t.
ing which Minifters left the Houfe in complete ig-
norance. He repelled the idea, that the object
of the prefent conduct of the Lords who arced with
him was a change of Minifters ; neither was it a
put of their views to urge them to a war : fuch
infinuations were unfounded ; their real objeas
were the honour and fecurity of the country. In
the prefent inftance he infiftedit would be right
to afford time to Minifters to follow the example
of their anceftors upon fimilar occafions.
The Earl of DARN t.zit delivered his fentiments
upon the various topics in difcuffion at fome length.
He teemed inclined on the whole to approve the
condat of Minifters, but expreffed his apprehen-
lions in thong language, at the great and increaf-
ing power of France, which, conjoined with
Ruflia, he was of opinion, could give Laws to
the whole world, Great Britain excepted. He
would fupport Minitters as long as they upheld
the National Honour, and provided for its fecuri-
ty. At the fame time, he could pot withhold his
tribute of applaufe to the charader Df the great
Minifter fo often alluded to of late. His abilities,

7 -------- -
tntegrity, an : above all his firmnefs, fpirit, and
courage were beyond any thing he could exprefs.
He then recurred to the fituation of France, and

the charaCter of the perfon at the head of its Go-
vernment, whole ambition he confidered as f'ar
from being fatiated. One great objc& of his am-
bition, he believed to be, the fubjugation of this
country. He longed to break open the doors of
the Bank of England with his legion of honour,
and to plant the Republican tlandard on the Tower
of London. He would freely fpeak his fentiments
independent of Minifterial confiderations—he
deemed large ellablifhments requifite in the pre-
fent [late of the country, and as fuch approved of

the Bill before the Hotife.
Lord HOBART commenced a very able and
fpirited anfwer to the Noble Lords on the other
fide of the queQion, by affirming, that the honour
of the country had not been fullied by the conduit
of his Majelly's prefent Minifters—Not one of
them would continue in Office, were they neceffi•
tated to fubmit to any ad which tended to fully
the National Honour. With refpeet to the imme •
diate fubjea in difcuillon, he mull exprefs his fur-
prize at the perfeverance of Lords in Oppofition,
after the very candid and fatisfaCtory explanation
given by his Noble and Learned Friend on the
Woolfack, in the laft debate. He contended that
the caufes for the Eftablahments thus called for
were of fufficient public notoriety for Parliament
to proceed upon. Nor was that all, he could as
effeClually contend, that the meafures now under
difcullion were duly and adequately adverted to
in the Speech from the Throne. In illuftration of
which pofition, his Lordthip read feveral [biking
extradts—and it was to enable his Majefty to give
effect, in cafe of neceffity, to the language fo de-
livered, that the augmentations in quellion were
, deemed neceffary, and for which, he mull infift,
the Royal communication had laid an adequate
foundation : the charge of the Noble Lords, there-
fore, that the whole proceeding was relied on the
ground of Public Notoriety, was unfounded.—
Upon thofe principles it would be neceffary that
his Majefly's Speech should be accompanied by a
geographical defcription of France, and its ter-
ritorial acquifitions ; and alfo by a fchedule of
her military eftablithments. When the Noble
Lords admitted they did not object to the extent
of the eftablithments, upon what folid or fub-
Qantial grounds then could they advance? The
Eilablifhments exiting in France, were matter for
ferious confiderAtion in the difcuffion of the fob-
jed before them, and for the information .of the
Houfe. His Lordthip read foine extraCti from a
Publication, wherein the Land Forces,&c.ofFrance,
were fpecified; their power, by cnie tlatem_ent there-
in, was ettimated at 495,000 men, and he argued,
that this, joined to the other confiderations ad-
vanced in the courfe of the debate, were ample
grounds for affenting to the fupplies already voted
by the Houfe ,of Commons. His Lordfhip then
flightly.adverted to fome occurrences which took
place about the period of the refignation of the
late Minifters, and argued therefrom in fitvour of
his general conclufions. He was duly convinced of
the delicate fituations in which Minifters were often
placed, fituations which fometimes rendered it as
neceffary to withhold Explanation, as it may be
proper to give it in others. After adverting tofoine
points connesled with the general fubjedt of difcuf-
' Pion, in fome degree of detail, he drew inferences
therefrom, and adduced additional arguments in
favour of the immediate progrefs of :he Bill.
Lord CARYSFORT objected that there had not
been fufficient information laid before the Houfe,
to authorize them to vote for the Supply demand-
ed, until more fatisfaCtory ftatements were made
on the part of his Majefty's Mini tiers. His Lord-
fhip dlfcuffed at Come length the topics which have
been already repeatedly urged refpating the re-
lative fituatiqn of the Country, and obferved that
he could not help doubting how far his Mojelly's
Minifters were intitled to confidence, when he con-
lidered the dangers to which the Country had
been expofed•cluring their Adminiftration.
The Duke of NORFOLK expreffed his aftonifh-
mert at the oppofition given by thofe who once
held the reins of Government, to the prefent mea-
fure. The perfon whe took the -lead in that Ad-
miniftration had, however, refined his fituation,
when the country was in fuch a (late of diftrefs as
to- call for the exertion of all his talents and powers.
That perfon had abandoned his inflation, and the
important troll repofed in him ; and the only rea
fon affigned for fuch a dereliftion, was that given

olic
tn
es
pc:exefeean t
nEfem‘avnacsi.iptati
to af.-a-.
eacle.fliWnh(e)rthCerattbh
nifters
:ierarlfl4/I:orefsry..--it
ground,
hadnd,
been that therefuqf.
peace
had YPetlrief:ltrod
and adequate, it was not tileien::):::itn
t(wt)atf:hi n
unprecedentedm;
akhheuetpaleiael
ciiwed codtai
taaidiltmaintain,and unequalled
th
nd
nce, to
although the Trtthaeare:
crimna
une •1"
I" a Rate
It was referved for his Ma• '
cwoanscilnu dheids
mind, under
not be
ever}
confidered as good. He felt confident
fupportcd by fad, when he Elated that the
had given general latisfadion ; and he • •
in the
lured that nine. out of tenaas
country had
ear
cerely rejoiced at its conclufion, and nettiy
hoped for its continuance. There were
ty/
pal points, refpeding which it appeared ° Pr'''.
that Mi-
lliners were particularly urged to enter into
nations. The firft related to the ee "Pia-
M w convinced alta, and upon that he as•''cl'atinn of
that ar
this moment any explanation
they could •
would be improper. The fccond point glvt;
the imprifonment of Captain D'Auver Pe6ed gne ; hut if
the Noble Lord who had alluded to that circurn:
fiance had any certain documents to produce, on
which he could ground a motion for
an Addrefs
to his Majefty, it became his duty to ado pt that
condo& Until then, it was impollible fo
Houfe to entertain in a fetious manner reportsr the
and
allufions of fo vague a nature. Every Noble Lord
recolleded, no doubt, the llory of C
apt. Jenkins,
which, during the Adminiftratioof
n Sir Robert
Walpole, had nearly involved the nation in a war
with Spain ; yet it afterwards turned out to be a
mere tale, without the flighteft foundation. His
Grace concluded by declaring, that he confidtied
himfelf junified in giving his lupport to the piell.nr
Minifters ; and he hoped they would not cond--
fcend, in confequence of any iMportunities, to
enter into explanations which might
prove impro-
per, and even dangerous.
Lord GRENVILLE role immediately after the
Duke of Not folk, and, in a fpeechof great ann
Illation, which, from its length and latenefs oldie
hour at which he concluded, we are unable to
give in detail, vindicated his own d con ue , and
that of the Noble Lords who oppof d e the reading
•of the Order of the Day. His Lordfhip addreiled
the Houfe to the following off, eet My Lords'
I am warranted, by the experience which I hare
had of the difcuffions that have taken place in this
Houfe, fince I have enjoyed the honour f o a feat
in it, in raying, that I never recoiled a greater
degree of perverfion given in any former inflance
to your Lordfhips' debates, than that which has
been introduced this evening by my Noble Friend
on the woolfack. The preterit queflion, I beg I
may be clearly and preciftly underftood, does not
relate to the flopping of the fupplies. No filch
willp—no loch intention has, I am confident, been
entertained by myfelf, or the Noble Lords ,'ho
have delivered their fentiments on this fide of the
Houfe. All our obfervations merely tend to the
time, and even if the queflion of time be confider-
ed, I maintain, that fhould the order of the day
for the reading of the Bill be deferred, nothing
can be loft by the Noble Lords who are fo earneft
and (Irenuvus in fupport of the motion. For it is
undeniable, that fhould a meffage or communica-
tion from the Crown be made tomorrow, no time
will be loft, fince the Bill, after that circumftance,
may be committed and read a third time the fame
day. When I confider the filtration of your Lord-
(hips at the prefent moment, I am the more dtfi-
rous to prefs upon your minds, the propriety, and
indeed the necefilty, of asting in conformity to
your enablifhed rules and forms. We are none
at the mutant when the commitment of the Bill is
agitating, without any meffage or communiratioa
upon which we can ground our proceedings, re 7
quired to deviate from the ufages of the lionfe-
We have yet to learn, whether the enabliflienent,
taken either as a land or naval ettablithinent, or as
both, is calculated for avar, for peace, or Ito pre-
parationsfor war. lam not fo ignorant of the
cuftoms of Parliament as not to know, that we
are without any kind of precedent to fanaion the
line of condua we are now called upon to adept.
Let thofe .Noble Lords, who contend with me
upon this point, refer to the pradice purfired by
our anceftors, and they will find that the objec-
tions I make are not light and trivial. Let them
look to the- Treaty of Utrecht ; iu that they wail
find nothing to fandion their proceedings. Let
them review the concequences, I (peak coniiitittien-
ally, of thi•treaty of Aix-la-Chapelle, in them they
will difcover they are notborne out. If they willvke
the trouble to revert to the proceedings which fol-
lowed the Spaniih Convention, the Treaty of Pa-
ris, and that of Verlaine% they will candidly al•
low that they are unftipported by any thing lila
precedent. When a Peace Eilablifuuuntlike the
prefent was propofed, I did expect to have force
adequate grounds to fandioo the proceedings of
this Houfe in fupport of filch an ellablithinent.—
What was, let me 'ail:, the condod of Gover
ment in the time of George the Firlt ? That Mo-
narch, in the fpeech which ire deliverethfrom the
throne, after the peace, did.not hefitate to declare,
it infecure and precarious. Mere then exitte.
f ffi • Ipowerful • thorice Parlia-
pledges u cient y to AU
I ment to prnvidc, by large eftabliihment% aria
I defenfive. for the fecurity of tl.e coo'
try. *But, in the prefent inttance, there
nothing like affurance, nothina inforraec:
tion; all is vague and contUfeS. With tell'
to I
myfelf, it may be neceflaiy. my Lords, C
fay a few words. In the oppolition nh:eli
make to the prefent motion, I have the conicity!•
tion to think, that I am juftified by every prince
pie of continency. The Noble Secretary oppefi. te.
to me will, I entertain no eoul)t, do me the
ce
jot.
Lice to admit, that when I pledged mytelf to
my fupport to Government, I did it in a art clear and
romi s
explicit manner, anal that I kept Y aS
p
long as I could do it continently. But I felt my-
felf in honour bound to withdraw that fuppilto
from the moment of the Convention with Knit-1a;
and am mire forcibly from the conclusion of
.
Treaty of Amiens. After their events I mutt c(he
fefs I no longer entertained any confidence iii t
wifdom -of their Councils, and every day's
,exOcl
rience has confirmed me in that opinio.7. 1
tully convinced, when I confider the chance=
De and tht yery
lush have' takenplace iu