Star.
London, England, 1830-03-30 00:00:00

KENT MEETING.
-- -

Sir E. KNATCHBULL presented a petition from the free-
holders of the county of sent, complaining of distress, and praying
for relief. It was impossible to deny the existence of distress ; and
he did not wish to aggravate it by any statement which he could
make. The petitioners prayed for a reduction of taxation, and here
he would say that the remission of the duty on leather and cider
would no doubt confer benefit upon the public. Ultimately he
considered that (he repeal of the duty on beer might do good, but
Se feared that at present it would lead to a considerable stagnation
in the malt trade.

Mr. WELLS said that the petition was most respectably signed,
and generally had his decided support. To the call, however, for
reform in parliament he felt disposed to agree, because he hoped it
would not he a dangerous inroad on the constitution. With res.
pet to the distress in the country, he could bear unequivocal testi.
moray to its general existence.
Mr. HON YWOOD said that a reduction of taxation and perils.
mentary reform were absolutely necessary for the benefit of the
Country. Indeed without them nothing beneficial could be expected.
On the question that the petition should be laid on the table,
Sir P. BURDETT said that the question of reform having been
agitated and agreed to at that meeting of the county of Kent, showed
that the principles of n form were making way all over the country.
Jr was no longer a subject that excited alarm among as portion of
the community. lie agreed cordially with every part of the prayer
of the petition ; but he was sorry to hear that the petitioners ex.
pressed themselves hostile to the principles of free trade, for it was
'tut those principles, which had never been fully acted on,
which caused their distress. (Hear, hear, hear.) They had, in-
deed, been called into practice so far as to derange the old system
without 4iving the country all the advantages of that new
system of which they were nominally the basis. There was
not, and he was afraid thee would not be, for some time,
tree trade in the country ; even those who advocated its principles
would not, and could not in the state of the house of commons, have
energy sufficient to carry those principles to such an extent as to get
rid of the corn laws, to the evils of which they were yet subject. As
long as that great obstacle to free trade—the corn laws..existed., Its
principles could not have a fair trial. He was so satisfied of this,
and so satisfied that those laws were Injurious to the country gentle.
men. who were in much error on this subject, that he would under-
take, on the first open day, to bring those laws under the conside-
:alien of the house, with a view to get them repealed. He trusted that
If the attention of the country gentlemen were called to this
.übject by 3 person in no degree hostile to them—if he could show
dirt their interest and the interests of the whole country would not
be injurtd by their repeal—and he considered that the interestof the
country gentlemen and the interest of the test of the community
went poti passa—and being satisfied in his own mind on the sub-
ject, and knowing that the country gentlemen were yet open to con.
viction, he did anticipate from discussing the subject, that the time
would come when they would be sensible that these laws were inju-
rious to their best interests. He did not despair of seeing the time
tome when the country 'should receive the benefit of a free trade
in cam, and get a free trade also for every other part of its industry.
He expressed his satisfaction at. the petition, and hoped, that as
there were now so many advocates for parliamentary reform, and
crew the honourable baronet was not altogether averse from it, that
dial Persons who wished for it would no longer be supposed to be
oyal. To give the people their proper share in the constitution
711142 necessary to their security, but it was not less essential to the
stability of die throne.
priThe petition was then laid on the table, and ordered to be
nted.
oral petitions were then presented praying for a free trade to
Inumu , against the burning of Hindoo widows; and the Reports on
SPltlY and Canada Affairs brought up, when the resolutions were
agreed to.
TillE FAZIO.
The order of the day having been moved for the house going into
Committee of Supply,
Mr. IIU3IE said he should oppose any vote of money until Ili.
tasters assured the house that they would open a passage into the
Park from Waterloo.place, as bad been promised by the right hon.
grlitkman (Mr. Arbuthnot).
Mr. ARBUTHNOT said the hon. member was in error. He
gave no pledge as to an opening into the Park. He gave no such
in,°Tnise he could not give it, and there was no such opening in the
NEI sent to his office.
Mr. BEAUAIONT thought an opening would be ornamentaL A
Itar years ago a premise was made that the. Regent's Park Should be

opened ; he thought the time arrived for carrying the promise
into effect.
Mr. MABSRLY said the tams= which the land was let should
be considered. When it was let plans were given in, describing
which parts were to be left open, and which not. The crown had
not the power to grant the opening, and if It were allowed, the con-
sequence would be to destroy the bandy of the place.

Mr. PROTHEROE said that Waterloo place should be opened.
It would be a great convenience to the public, and no inconvenience
to any person. He understood the ridiculous plan of a fountain was
given up. An opening could not interfere with the personal gratifi-
cation of his majesty. He hoped the Regent's.park would be
thrown open like the other parks.
Mr. HUME said he was now satisfied he bad made a mistake with
respect to the pledge, and should not therefore press his objection at
present.
Mr. BEAUMONT said his hon. friend (Mr. Moberly) was mis-
taken as to the act of parliament. There was nothing in it which
could prevent the opening of the park. It would be most unfair if
the public were excluded for the convenience of the few persons
who had villas within the inclosure.

Mr. IitABERLY said it was the opinion of legal gentlemen that
the park could not be opened, and that the Zoological Gardens were
granted in contravention of the act.
Mr. WARBURTON spoke in favour of a passage into St.
James's Park, and of the opening of the Regent's Park.
Mr. ARBUTHNOT made a few observations relative to the con.
tract with Mr. Nash, and in answer to a question from Mr.
Protheroe, said the competition for the ground let to Mr. Nash was
quite open, and the transaction perfectly fair.
Mr. BEAUMONT said the parks should be as open to the pub-
lic here, as the Turneries and other public gardens on the continent
were.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said the accommo.
dation of the public had lately received great additions, and the
Parks were thrown open to them In parts which were before closed.

SUPPLY.

The SrEstrza having left the Chair,
Mr. A. DAWSON proposed the following resolution :—To de-
fiay the charges of civil contingencies £lOO,OOO.
Mr. HUME gave notice, that upon a future occasion he should
propose a reduction in the diplomatic expenses of the country. Mr.
Canning made some reduction, and promised more, but nothing had
been since done.

The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, there was
a great reduction this year, and it would be carried still further
next year.
Sir G. CLERK proposed a vote of 99,0001. to defray the ex-
pense of repairs and charges of the dockyards. This included a
sum of 17,0001. fora naval hospital at Malta.

Mr. 31ABERLY thought it extraordinary that the house
should be now called upon to vote 17,0001. for a new naval hos-
pital. The present situation was worse than the former. The
mode in which this building was entered upon, without the
sanction of parliament, deserved the consideration of the house.
The rule was, that no public money should be applied without the
sanction of Parliament. There were many resolutions of the house
approving of that principle. There was no ease of emergency made
out here. He called upon the house to oppose so unconstitutional
a vote as this. Why did not the Treasury before bring the matter
under the consideration of the house ? The whole affair hitherto
was conducted without the sanction of the house. It was not an
laordinary circumstance that would justify such a departure from the
w.

Sir G. COCKBURN thought the hon. member put the cue ra-
ther unfairly. The treasury and the admiralty shewed a great dis-
inclination to enter upon the work. When an action took place
lately in that quarter of the world, the total Inadequacy of the
former accommodation was proved. A large reinforcement of men
of war went out last summer, and when there were considerable
fleets of Russians, French, and Turks, in the Mediterranean, It
became necessary to make provision for any contingency that must
arise, particularly when it had been proved that the hospital was
not adequate even to a peace establishment.
Mr. HUME said, what they objected to was the commencement
of any work without the express sanction of the Treasury and of
Parliament, as required by the Treasury Minutes of 1784 and
1791. He should propose the postponement of the vote until a
proper estimate was produced.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER thought his
honourable friend behind him had rendered further expenditure
unnecessary. He agreed with the honourable gentleman (Mr.
Hume) In the general principle. With respect to this hospital,
there was a proper estimate sent from the Admiralty to the Treasury.
The Treasury thought best to postpone the work, anticipating a
reduction of the six thousand seamen then in the Mediterranean;
but in August last circumstances required the augmentation of the
men to eight thousand, and this was the emergency which justified
the providing of additional accommodation for the sick.

Lord ALTHORP said be believed the old Hospital was insuffi-
cient, and therefore he did not disapprove of a new one. What he
complained of was, that u the inconvenience had been so long felt,
government did not before bring the matter under the consideration
of Parliament.

Mr. CROKER said in July last a hope was entertained that the
force might be reduced ; but in August, from peculiar circumstances,
it became necessary to increase it from 8,000 to 8,500 seamen, and
this was the emergency which induced the Treasury to give orders
for going on with the work. The emergency was sudden, and there.
fore must be suddenly provided for.
Mr. WARBURTON said all they asked for was, to postpone the
vote until a satisfactory estimate was before the house.
Mr. CROKER said a regular estimate was submitted to the
Treasury in July last.
After a few words from Lord JOHN RUSSELL and the Coon-
cELLoß of the EXCHEQUER in explanation,
Mr. MABERLY said he should persist in opposing the vote
until the papers relative to this hospital were printed.
In answer to a question from Mr. Hunt,
Sir G. COCKBURN said, by the last letter he received, the has.
pital was proceeding rapidly, but no money was yet drawn. It was
to be done by contract.
Dlr. HUME said it was altogether a strange job. The present
vote included 4,000/. for a chapel in Pembroke dockyard. Could
not the shipwrights attend the neighbouring church?
Sir B. MARTIN said there was no church or chapel within two
miles of the dockyard; when he was at Pembroke last year, can.
plaints were made of the want of convenience to attend divine ser-
vice. The expense was 2,0001. and if it was postponed another
year, it could not be done for leas than double the sum.
HUME said he could see no necessity for such an expenditure
of money.
Sir B. MARTIN said if this church was not built, the conse-
quence would be to drive the men to the adjoining meetings, which
the house he was sure would not sanction.
_ _

Colonel DAVIES said that stout shipwrights could and no diffi-
culty in walking two miles to church.
Sir B. MARTIN raid4hese shipwrights had families, who must
also attend church. The whole number to be accommodated was
about two thousand.

In answer to a question front Mr. MAIIIIIRLY,
Sir G. CLERK said there was no intention of giving up the Pem-
broke Yard.

Mr. HUME said Pembroke' Yard was now costing the public
6004 a.year for clergymen. That was a heavy charge.
Sir B. MARTIN said the gentleman now superannuated was a
long time ill, and was obliged to pay a person to do the duty.
Mr. HUME said the person who thus did the duty should have
been continued at the same salary, and not put the public to addi.
tional expellee; be should propose the postponement of this vote of
2,0001. for a chapel until next year.
Sir T. BARING spoke in favour of the vote. The erection of
large churches, like those of Mary.lapboane, had the effect of entirely
closing the chapels, which was not desirable.
Mr. PROTHEROE said this might be useful, even if the
berd should be given up. He , however, the building would
a plain one.
Sir G. CLERK said the architecture of this chapel was to be
cheap and plain.
Mr. TRA NT supported the vote. He could not concur in what ,
had fallen from the hon. hart, that the churches of Mary.la.bonne
emptied the chapels. The truth was, that both churches and chapels
were crowded every Sunday.
Sir T. BARING said what he stated was a fact. The canes.
quence of the erection of the churches in Mary.la.benne was that
four chapels were now shut up in the evening.
Mr. HUME withdrew his amendment, and objected to another
part of the vote, 3,0001. for works on the Lakes of Canada. He
wished to know what these works were.

Sir G. COCKBURN said they were advanced posts which re.
gutted
Mr. 01111 said the Americans managed these things better.
After the war, they either bunted their ships or broke than up and
sold the timber.

Sir O. COCKBURN said the American ships in Sacitett's liar.
hour were taken as much care of as their own.
The Resolution was agreed to.
The votes of 210,0001. to defray the charge of provisions foe the
troops foreign stations ; and
,000 for the transport service, were thew agreed to.

ORDNANCZ
Mr. PERCEVAL said, that them was so lltds departure freak
the estimates of former years, that be should hays to trouble slut
house but with a few words. In 1828, the inane elimmitti% after
a close examination into this department, found no cause foe cow.
plaint. The hon. member explained some new arrangsments in the
form of the estimates, and said that the 'reduction from tbs amount
of last year was 33,00 W. on the afiketive, and on ths now-elhodvs,
3,0001. making a total reduction 0f30,01101, He then went over the

different votes, shewing where the reduction had been made in the
details, and said that he did not think it possible to make any ex-
tensive reductions in the ordnance of the colonies ; these had bees
made under the controul of the noble lord at the head of the depart-
ment. He concluded by moving a grant of 85.025% to defray the
salaries of the Muter-General and Lieutenant-Go oral, and princi-
pal officers of the Ordnance.

Sir J. GRAHAM was most happy to see his hon. friend an.
ploying his talents in the public service rather than eating the MINA
of idleness, or cringing at the doors of the treasury for favours ; be
was glad to see him following the example of his father, who by hie
talent and exertions raised himself to the high station in whisk
wielded the power and distributed thepatronagc of the state.
sitting on that side of the house where the principal hiendelles tit
majesty's government had lately been found,l3e(Sir J. Orates
not one of those who felt so much coyness at supporting a
nstory resolution against ministers when his public duty called ow
him so to do. Yet he felt pain in submitting propositions to the Minn,
which was certainly directed against those amongst whom wan
some of his earliest and kindest friends, and he feared that such
conduct on his part, coupled with his being favourable to reform,
would render him obnoxious to the benches oppqaite. He had net
the honour of apersonal acquaintance with the noble individual Wee
now held the office of lieut.-general of the Ordnance. But he was no
stranger—who was not well acquainted with his noble deeds in arme;
how he had risen to the highest estimation in the opinions of foreign
princes; how in Portugal, in Spain, and in France, his brilliant ser-
vices
had attracted the notice of his great commanda • and how, at
the head of the Household Brigade, he had more than shared the
glories of the field of Waterloo ?—(Cheers.) To such a man it would
be dastardly in the extreme to refine from party motives any just ,
reward for the great services he had rendered to the state. But the
house would remember that the noble lord, besides this office had
already the command of a regiment in the cavalry, and that
these were various governorships of garrisons maintained avow-
edly as sinecures for the reward of great military services. The
question then was whether this office wu kept up as a military is.
ward, or whether It was n to the service of the state. Upon
this question he was at issue with majesty's ministers. The quea.
tion was one into which the finance committee, as the house knew,
had come to a conclusion in his favour, and he should call their atten-
tion to the evidence of the Duke of Wellington before that committee,
upon which he should contend that the office was unnecessary and
ought not be kept up. The Duke of Wellington was asked by the
committee—" Do you consider the continuance of the office of
Gen. of the Ordnance essential to the well being of the service ?" The
answer of the noble duke was--" yes, I do." He admitted that so
far the answer was decisive against him; but the noble duke went
on to state his reasons, and in them he was prepared to contend
that there was full justification of the conclusion to which the
finance committee came. The Duke of Wellington proceeded lo
say—" The liestenant.general of the ordnance has very berm*
duties to perform. I. do not mean to say that the
cannot perform them. Be does sometimes perform thuitielnill4
time the lieutenant-general was absent, and eentedues I was
absent myself. When he was absent, 1 perforated the duties of
both offices." He contended that, that so far the evidence
of the Duke of Wellington proved that each office was vicarious se
the other. The noble duke went on to say, " Some of the duties
of the Lieutenant General are very Important. He has to insppaaaott
the troops. Then there is the duty at Woolwich, and the
Lion of the men that are to be discharged. And it is neeesarr that
the Lieutenant General should belong to the Board of Ordnance,
because there should be a military officer attached to that booed."
He begged here to call the attention of the house to this fact—that
at the time when the noble duke gave this evidence the board wee
comprised of one military person and three civilians, whereas now
it consisted of four military men and one civilian ; doodlee he
conceived that that part of the evidence which went to the neesteity
of keeping up the office for the sake of having a military Misr at
the Board, was greatly weakened by the change of circumstances.
, Since that time, the Ordnance Department had been so re.modelled
that no want of military information could be complained of, sines
it included two full Generals, two Lieutenant-Generals, and au
Colonels. The honourable ronet then read passages from the
evidence of Sir H. Hardinge before the Finance Committee, and
contended that the abolition of the office was warranted by that es
well as by the evidence of the Duke of Wellington. He then ts.
ferred to the Report of the Commissioners of Military t=,,
which also recommended the reduction of the office. Lord CC,
in his evidence before the Commission, stated that the office was ne-
cessary, in order that the officer who held it might form a link of
communication between the military and the civil branches of the
Board. And well might Lord Chatham say that in 1811, when
there was only one military -officer in the whole department besides
the Lieutenant-General. To those who supposed that the Finance

Committee had passed over too glibly the opinions of the Duke of
Wellington and the Rt. Hon. General opposite, he begged to state
that in their Report they had fully set forth the grounds on which they
came to a conclusion contrary to that evidence.l'hey stated the conside-
ration and the reasons upon which they had viewed the evidence of
those two distinguished authorities with jealousy, and upon a
balance of the evidence had decided against them. They stated
that such men were liable to be led by professional feelings to
desire to keep up the military establishments in order to meet
war, if It should arise, upon a higher scale than was absolutely
necessary. This was the opinion of the Finance Committee, to
which opinion the right honourable gentleman, when he moved its
appointment, bound himself and his colleagues to attend, as
I explicitly as a man could bind himself by words. The right
honourable gentleman had also advanced opinions of committees,
and their proper influence upon the acts of the house, as the most
powerful argument upon several recent occasions, both negatively
and affirmatively upon different questions. The whole of the rlgnt
honourable gentleman's speech against the motion of his honourable
friend, the member for Dover, on Thursday night, was founded
upon the force which any recommendation of that committee must
have upon the house with regard to the property tax. And he
was free to confess that so powerful did the right tonourable gen-
tleman's argument appear to his mind, that although he came down
to the house intending to support the motion, he went away
without doing so. Then what had been the recommendation of the
; finance committee with regard to this question ? It was that the office
of lieutenant-general of the ordnance ought not to be kept up in
time of peace. And if that opinion was come to by the committee
two years ago, how could the bowie now decide that it should
be maintained in the present circumstances of the country, when
large masses of the pen le were stretching out their hands to
them for bread ? (Hear. The government could not in good faith
resist its reduction, forthey were not free agents to do so. They
bad bound themselves by a pledge to that house to introduce every
economy into every department of the State, and to reduce every
expense which was not absolutely indispensable in its service. He
spoke with entire sincerity when he said that he did not think this
office was kept up by the Government from any want of sympathy
with the distresses of the people. He believed firmly that the true
motive was that of wishing to keep up the patronage of the Govern.
nuns, and its influence in that house. He begged the Committee
to bear in mind that of the persons holding the offices in the Ord-
; none* Department, one was a Peer of Parliament, and the other
seven members of that house. (Cheers.) Of the members of that
house all were military men too, excepting one, an bon. gentlman„
who indeed acted upon their fi,eld.days, as the muster-master of the
opposite beaches, and whose office he knew not how to describe,
unless be called him the Ajar Flogellifer of the administration.—
' (Loud laughter.) The amount of the reduction which he had to,
propose he knew was trifling. But in these matters " trifles light
6 as air" became " confirmation strong as proofs of holy writ." He
called upon the house to repeat their vote of Friday night ; and if
the effect of that vote should be to dissolve them, they should then
stand erect before their constituents in the consciousness that they
' bad done their duty. By giving another such vote, they would
teach the government to think a little less of their patronage and a
' little more of the wishes and expectations of the people. The hon.
baronet concluded by moving that the sum be reduced to 83,8251.
Mr. PERCEVAL said that if he bad the same distrust in the
cue he was about to put to the committee, as he had in his own
power to compete with the talent of his bon. friend, he should rise
with still more embarrassment than he really felt. But he was so
well convinced that if he failed to do justice to the arguments
which the case afforded, there were others of his right hon. friends
near him who would make up for this deficiency, that he had no
distrust atoll as to the decision to which the committee would come.
He was considerably relieved from the apprehension of the faro of
his boo. friend's attack when he found him compelled to diverge
from the question of the office of Lieut.-Genual of the Ordnance
and go into the wider and more declamatory field of the number
of, garers•n in that house, and the distress of the country. He
was not, indeed, surprised at his honourable friend WNhose
t*m the most Important of hie speech, after up
hill so long in contending with the name of the of
Wellington and his right honourable Mend. To thee evidence
hebegged to all the attention of thiamin again. The beenumble
gentleman then read parts of the evfilasee, sod costaaled that
ft expressed a distinct, elm, positive, aid unhesitating 'Flake
that the claw was notesszy to the public service. No one
could doubt that either the aebis duke or his right honourable
Mend were desirous of introducing every sews 'y width was amis.
test with the diciest discharge irtas pubis smile, and thee they
not only discharged their duds. with the Imes mat, but also cons.
polled all who acted under them to do the meta Why, then, there
was the euthesityef these diedegulabed peons, who diedectly de.
chiral that the ogees were neeereary ; -aa spleen thee they had the
cleelmeidea of a ceentnittee composed of goademeenssMesly ignorant
itilas apes which a Mrs.* sigh' Se be fanned
who's/kg the evidence, chose to say that dier ad act believe
it, edit ' was not neeenney. The cenniktee bad riled aced
Asir Immo Apoodoir a woo to milinurienusea la /WM of
keeplll 411111Wilefili. H. would ask if wee nothing et
bies la the We& et fosa gestlemla appsehe a modes
during a placenan, and particularly • placentas who had a scat ia

that house ? Why then he would tike the two biasses, and like
equal qualities they would destroy each other, and the simple quell-
don remained where it was, a choice between knowledge, experience,
and zeal, on the one hand, telling them that the office could not be
done without, and on the other absolute ignorance, telling them that
it could. There was no men in that house or In the country who
could really doubt the sincere desire of the Duke of Wellington is
introduce every practicable retrenchment and economy into all the
branched of the public service, and there was no one who could
not believe that the noble duke was stating his sincere and lioue,t
opinion when he stated his belief in the necessity of the office. Fot
these reasons he thought the committee would not consent to it.
reduction.

Lord J. RUSSELL said, that if the vote of the Committee wee:,
in favour of keeping up the office of Lieutenant-General of the Ord.
nance, it would not be upon the grounds which the hon. gentktnan
had put forward. He had never heard a Committee of that House
treated with more disrespect, he would say with such contempt, as
by the honourable member, excepting in the speeches of 110 inc radical
reformer, who wished fee a new system of representation, founded
upon universal suffrage. The noble lord contended that Finance
committees had at all times been treated with particular respect by
the house, and that the right hon, gentleman who moved the ap-
pointment of the last spoke of its prospective recommendations es
being the grounds upon which the government would act. The
committee, after examining all the evidence in the case, had pro-
nounced against the continuance of the office, and the house ought
to support them in that decision.
Gen. GROSVENOR said that he did not think the finance com-
mittee ought to be the guides of the house upon this question. He
thought they ought rather to embrace the opinions of the army.
This was only a paltry sum of 1200/. which he thought ought not
to be taken from general officers. who were but too ill-rewarded.
Why did not the hon. baronet propose to reduce a prebendary of
Lancaster? He should vote against the amendment.
Mr. PERCEVAL said that in using the words " absolute igno-
rance," he bad not intended the slightest disrespect to the members
of the finance committee. He had only spoken of their ignorance of
the details necessary to forming a correct judgment upon this ques-
tion, of which they must unquestionably have been ignorant. It
would have been most unbecoming in ham to have used the words
in any other sense, or to have treated the committee with intentional
disrespect.
The Earl of UXBRIDGE said that although he was opposed to
his majesty's government, from a general disapproval of their policy
and measures, yet he could not vote for the proposed reduction, after
the decided opinion of the Duke of Wellington, and his own belief
in the necessity of the office.
Mr. LIDDELL supported the original grant.
Lord 110 WICK denied that the house ought to be borne down
by the authority of the Duke of Wellington ; and said that he should
support the amendment.
Sir H. HARDINGE said be had heard with great regret
the decided terms in which his Noble Friend had declared his
hostility to his Majesty's Government ; but be must say that
the opinion of that Noble Lord, and of his father, for whom he
had the highest professional respect, was most valuable evidence
against the proposition of the hon.baronet, who came forward as the
abolitionist of all offices. The house should bear in mind that, al.
though the finance committee had recommended the reduction of the
office of Lieut.. Gen. of the Ordnance, yet that their recommendation
had been rejected by a large majority of the house immediately after
that recommendation was made. The opinion of the finance committer
was this : They appeared to recommend the abolition of the office on
the ground that the absence of the General of the Ordnance was an ar-
gument for theretnoval of the Lieut.-Gen. Now the committee would
be astonished to hear how seldom the Muter-General of the Ord.
nance had been absent. During the last thirty years, the instances
of absence had been few. Lord Alulgrave was never absent. Lord
Mirka was never absent. Lord Chatham absent six months. The
Duke of Wellington absent six months at the Congress of Verona
and Vienna. In 25 years them had been an absence of 18 months,
which, upon the average, was three woks in each year. The in.
stances in which Lieutenants-General were absent marked their
splendid military services. Sir Wm. Clinton was sent to take the
commandof the troops in Portugal, and during the absence of Sir W.
Clinton the office was designed by Lord Goderich's Administration
for Sir Herbert Taylor. 'The utility of the office had been acknow-
ledged by Mr. Canning. In 1822 that great Statesman, in a very able
wech, gave an opinion in favour of the continuance of it. When the
Duke of Wellington offered the Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance
to Lord Hill, and secondly to Lord Beresford, the duties were consi-
dered so laborious that those officers were compelled to remain during
the greater part of the year in London. The Duke of Wellington in
1822 declared the office to be necessary for the public service, and on
that occasion the noble duke could have entertained no idea that the
office of Lieutenant-General would be attacked. It was a proof of the
sincerity of his evidence in 1828. The finance committee said the
evidence of the noble duke could not overcome the absence of the
lieutenant-general, but that absence had been nothing, as he had
before stated. The right hon. gentleman gave evidence himself,
and he could assure the committee that it was sincerely given. He
could not avoid saying the ordnance department had bun harshly
treated. When officers of artillery were doing increased duty,
the bon. member for Cumberland said, " We know you work hard,
but you shall work harder, and we will reward you by taking away
from you an important office." Was it fair, then, after the board
of ordnance had done so much to praise them for their exertions,
and
say at the same time, " We insist on taking away your lieut..
general
of the ordnance ?" He called on the house to resist the
amendment of the hon. baronet, and thereby avoid casting a slur on
such men as the Duke of Wellington. He recommended the com-
mittee to confirm by their decision that night the former decisions
of 1822 and 1828, as well as the opinion of a noble marquis, who
had given distinct evidence of the necessity for keeping up the office.
He should contend that a more unjust proposition had never been
made in that house.
Lord ALTHORP expressed an opinion that the house was at
liberty to nisi:use evidence given before a committee without being
supposed to impeach the veracity of the witnesses. The noble duke
and others had stated that this dike could not be dispensed with,
but it was the duties of the office which they made the subject of
complaint. If the master-general of the ordnance was absent, he
admitted that the lieutenanngeneral was a most efficient officer, but
they would allow no deputies; they might as well have a deputy
chancellor of the exchequer. It was true that the finance tem.
mittee approved of the duties done by the board of ordnance; but
there was an exception with respect to the lieut.-general. (Cries of
" no.") It appeared to him that when the master-general was pre-
sent, the duties could be performed without the lieut-generaL '1 be
noble lord supported the amendment.
Lord E. SOSIERSET said the noble lord wee in error in sup-
posing the duties of the general and lieutenant-general of the
Ordnance were one. He had filled the office, and was able to say,
from his experience of the duties, that they were separate, and must
be discharged by a distinguished officer. The nettle lord felt it to
be his duty, upon a oqration of so much importance, to oppose the
has baronet's aosendnseat.
Mr. MABERLY considered the office of lieutenant-general of
Ordnance unnecessary, and therefore should support his hon.
friend's amendment.
Lord MORPETH alluded to the opinion expressed by Lord
Moira In 1810. The office of lieutenant-general of ordnance was
clearly understood to be coupled with that of the master-general. If
the master.general was sent abroad to serve in the arm), the lieute-
nant would then be called on to do his duty. Beyond that contine
gent service the lieutenant had nothing to do; he remained a mere
member of the board. Such was the opinion of Lurd Moira. The
finance committee of 1828 confined their views of reduction to the
abolition of the office of lieutenant-general. Since that day distress
bad increased in the country, and he thought the recommendation of
the committee ought to be carried into -Wan
I _

Mr. Secretary PEEL said, although no man could be more &s-
-peed than himself to give full credit for sincerity, be was nevcrthe.
less of opinion that the hon. baronet should submit his arguments
and statements to salutary examination. Whatever sincerity the bon.
baronet might have felt, he certainly had moved himself, as be al.
ways did, a skilful advocate, by pates; his his speech every sr.
gamest that could make an impserdes ea the hem. The influence
of the crown, the affair of Terceira, and the Ajaa himself, bad hem
used to prove that the lieut.-gamed of ortinems was not a neamosay
once. One argument of the henearable Wesel met as rem that
'there was an intention on the pm of his mejsales osesdromat to
• ahem a want of respect kw the menu emend dew frnence cm.
mince. Now what was the fact with newt *that senuaktee ?
They hod made four fall report' en'heade of pu*s Novice, and in
everyhensa,withiicmetepiesdthsseiseofLiettudlen Of Ord.
oases, his mejsetrs gwamsemhaiadspeedtWrreanmenatlatioos,
If the seseentendai in the repent to sheikh the Ail of lieu-
Mantimisal et calm* was me mike lift Mot, it was
haw* that ease could net be without Wary to the
pthnethrice. The Dohs of 'W said it was his esavitdes
dna the dike shoed be • Was it the of thy
to? ppeal to the hone oplpet the of
rearlimmikite lf they seta out' as wpm the apiinee of the
MU of Watson in wish saltier. the Fewer stew wiwneleulds•
was a lint, (Mier.) Who el* do itMirYrais who asweadsd that the
ceatimmee of the moo woad bade thiossawyf Thojeiwt pew
ens whe had labeened to make seisetiese he die Away. prig the
time the Duke of Welles*. was he the games Deponnint, the
Kooken,* were reduced one silo. The elosonsiesto If they
wawa tows *dr mind to selloothoo he en ex mike* mei de
Nue dna fay AWN CSIMININIS The Veit Ilesevieelde Geo-
damn reed a porecaph la the Impart el the Mose amelitke.
kWh said the Seventetest ienad i mete he dilbsdot taislttsets
than the Corawilties thief. ItaaCtille had hem Elsie shoe *Wei.
akin deed tie Mem se the Woe a1111,01011:s yaw. It billet
Ibsen disissainise se *doh heat beipeky that ship had met roma
simoded the re.erphttatant et the !Uwe Coonnite,
_het hereon
limy were dkipeesit •he oohs reenneshe tbeitlesein Oks amp
sight. wpm the bunko of the teseetwer of the awry, he peoveedist

-4017