Star.
London, England, 1822-03-12 00:00:00

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by declaring, that the House had as much right to
inquire into the Civil List, as into any other branch
of the expenditure.
Sir. S. WORTLEY was of opinion that the House could not
form a judgment of the whole arrangements until the details
were brought under its consideration. With regard to the Super-
annuation Fund, he certainly thought it a lit question for the
consideration of the House. He could not sit down without
expressing his gratitude to his Majesty, for the way in which he
had reduced his establishment, and be hoped the country would

accept this as a boon.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, his Right Hon.
Friend bad no wish at that time to pledge Members to his plan,
but to give them time to consider it before the details should be
laid brore the House. He agreed that the system of Superan-
nuation was a system capable of abuse, and that the late Bill was
particularly liable to many objections : but he must say, the state-
ment made by his Right Hon. Friend was calculated to repel
the charge of abuse. It appeared that 1800 persons, who had
been superannuated in the political departments, had served upon
an average nearer 30 than 21 years, and that the average age of
these persons was not less than 65. There might be cases of
e truer superannuation, but evidently they must have been few.
Were they to cast old servants on the world because age had
disabled them ? If such were the policy of any country, that
country must suffer for it. The Hon. Member for Aberdeen
had talked of a great number of healthy, vigorous, young men,
who had retired at a convenient allowance; but be could assure
the House that it had uniformly been the anxious endeavour of
his Nleirsty's Government to ascertain that individuals were
u 'fit for service before they were permitted to retire.,-en—
, The Honourable Member complained that a sum of 200,0001.
was an inadequate reduction on a fund of 5.000,0001. but the
Ilottoureble Member laid out of his calculation the great ex-
pense of collecting the revenue, which would deprive him of
more than half his argument, for out of 4,000,0001. only
1,600,000. was applicable to the present question. He would
not dog that et ry large reductions might be made in the col-
lection of the revenue. Committees were at that moment sitting
on every branch of the revenue. The Honourable Member for
Aberdeen, when he had no better reason to give for a proposi-
tion, immediately jumped to a conclusion, and maintained,
the necessity of making a reduction of 25 per cent. Now his
Bight honourable Friend had stated, that when the House ,
came to the details it would appear that a reduction had been
made to the extent of £0 per cent. Was the House to be told, 1,
then, that this was an inadequate saving, and that it fell short
of the xpectations of the country? He did not deprecate dis-
cussion ; on the contrary, he was anxious that the House should
investigate every proposition which had been submitted to them,
but be trusted the House did not participate in the feeling of
the Horourable Member for Aberdeen. The Honourable Mem-
ber complained, that his Right Honourable Friend bad not
reduced everything to the standard of 1797--(Hear, hear).—
Now, his Right Honourable Friend had stated, that since
the year 1797 the business of the Treasury had increased
six-
fold. In 1797 the number of documents brought under the con-
sideration of the Treasury did not exceed 4,000; in the two last
years they amounted to 24,000. Was it extraordinary, then,
that when the business of the Treasury had increased at this
rate, there should be an increase of nine officers in this depart-
ment, espt daily when it was considered that the Irish Treasury
was annexed to it since 1797, and that two or three clerks were
exclusive ly employed on Irish business? His Right Hon. Friend
had stated, that in this single department of the Treasury, which
might have been supposed to be more favoured than any other,
there was an actual reduction of thirty-three per cent. exclusive
of the five per cent. applied to the Superannuation Fund. The
Civil list had afforded the lion. Member another opportu-
nity of indelging in that rich repast of detail with which be had
on so many t. rmer occasions nauseated the House. Whatever
might be the lion. Member's taste for detail, the taste of Parha-
m le was of a very different description; and it was neither the
pra:tic.- nor the province of Parliament—he had almost said, it
w s within the competence of Parliament—to enter into the
question of the Civil List, except at the instance of the Crown.
'With respect to the communication of his Majesty's gracious de-
sire to share in the difficulties of Isis subjects, he could assure the
Molise, that if his Majesty had indulged his own feelings, they
vs mild have had no limit but that of best contributing to the
wants of the People.
Mr. BEN N could not see what interest the clerks had in
this affair, as they had not the mauagement of the funds. Many
had been superannuated for the sake of putting others In their
room. It was too much to call upon the country to pay both
for the services of ch rks and also for their improvidence. From
the hr.! Lord of the Treasury, who had £6600. a year, £6OO.
se...s to be taken ; whilst from a junior clerk, at £125. a year,
sees. was to be taken away. It was quite insulting that the
Great • file ne of State should have such enormous salaries, and
on a (inure day hr should move for their reduction. The Noble
Lord had almost doubted the competence of the House to is
•nto the Civil List, though nothing could be more uncon-
stitutional. He objected to the plan generally, particularly that
the Pension List vas not to be reduced. It was the duty of the
House to eubtract as much from pensions as they had done from
eie sahibs of clerks—( I lear).
Sir W. 1W CR SP IGNY could not but express his satisfac-
tion at the conduct of his Majesty, who had the decision of set-
ting an example of retrenchment. With regard to the relief
which the Noble Lord had proposed to the country, it was much
the same as if the Noble Lord, standing easy himself, and sur-
rounded by men groaning under heavy burdens, and crying out
to him for relief, should take front each of their burdens a single
feather, and say—`• Go now, be quiet and happy, for see I have
relieved you !"—( A laugh).
hlr. WA 'IRE inquired whether the same reductions were to
e place in Ireland as in England? and whether the allow-
ances to Foreign Ambassadors were to be reduced, both of
which he thought would be of much importance? He thought
it would be better, if the salaries afforded to public men during
their service were to be considered as their whole remuneration;
ard that they should regulate their expenses accordingly.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, in explanation,
that the offices in Ireland were all paid out of the Consolidated
Fund, which was open to the consideration of the House. The
sacrifice on the part of his Majesty had been great ; although the
Civil List was numerically about £1,500,000, yet only ,C 290,000
was at the personal disposal of the Sovereign; and they would
find that of the whole fund a large reduction had been made.
Mr. WYNN thought the principle of economy required a
strict regard to superannuation. There were melancholy exam-
ples of men holding office when they were unable to discharge
its duties. That had been the case of Lord Mansfield, who held
the office of Chiet Justice of the Court of King's Bench for five
years after he had been unable to perform the duties.
Fir J. iORKE wished to know if the reduction which the
King bad proposed was to extend to the allowances of the Royal
7 roily ?
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, that the allow-
ances of the Royal Family were not placed on the Civil List, but
on another fund, in order that any saving which was made on
them might he immediately beneficial to the Public.
elr. P. MOORE objected to the Bill being hurried through
the House. He well recollected the opinion of his friend Mr.
Sheridan, who always stated that there was a great misappre-
hension in attributing the absorption of the Civil List to the
Crown. That list was applied for other purposes; but as the
information which the House ought to require was promised,
he should content himself at present by merely moving that the
Committee should report progress, and ask leave to sit again.
Sir M. W. RI DLEY was not prepared to support the motion
of his Honourable Friend (Mr. Moore). The Resolution, as
proposed by the Right Honourable Gentleman, did not pledge
the House to the details of the measure. There was no pledge
exacted, by agreeing to that Resolution, to support theßill in all
Is clauses.
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER stated, that
the reduction would take place, in certain cases, from the sth
of January, and in others from the sth of April and sth of July.
Mr. CA LCRA FT had no objection to the principle of su-
perannuation. He objected to persons with small salaries of
501. or 1001. contributing at all to the Fund. Upon a fund of
two millions there would be a saving of 200,0001. and that he
admitted was very considerable.
Mr. W. Shlll.ll said he should support the Resolution,with
the understanding that he was not by that vote bound to support
the details of the measure.
Mr. P. MOORE did not wish, under the impression of the
House, to persevere in kis motion for the Committee's reporting
progress.
Mr. HUME wished to ascertain what the deduction was to
be from all pensions above 5001. per annum, held at pleasure?
The CHANCELLOR of the EXCHEQUER said, that Was
a question depending on the future decision of Parliament.
Mr. W. PHILIPS did not conceive that a reduction of
2(thele!. or 2,000,000/. was a aufficicut reduction when the