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London, England, 1831-10-04 00:00:00

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little attention to the past ? Had they Dot had some mai
epee on that head? and what was the wasning they had re-
ceited ? (Hear) He could not help avowing that he thought
tke bill was one of great hazard—of great danger. They
1 stood not upon their character in that house alone, but upon
' their character out of doors and le-society ; (Heart—and it
was next to impossible that any of them walking the
streets should oot, by his own observation, perceive that
the violent demonstration in favour of the bill was
discountenanced by the wishes and mast of society. It
was all very well to talk of the Howse of Peers being a
deliberative assen.bly. and of their exerclaing'their rights in
an independent and free spirit; but, he believed in his con.
science, that sittitig there in deliberation on a bill, which
was to effect a change in the Constitution ; and sitting too
as peers and hereditary legislators and advisers of the crown,
to give weight to the voice of the people on the one hand,
and to support the jest prerogatives of the monarch on the
other ; it was their duty. if they were not satisfied with the
bill, and with the prospect of the results which were to be
expected from it, to reject it, and to refuse to unction its
being passed into a law. If the people were tired of the
House of Lords, in GOD'S n.tme let them say so, and they
would be ready to walk out of that HOLM. (LOUd
cries of " No, no," from all sides.) He was willing to
admit, that there Pro; the greatest excitement existing on
the one hand—(l tear. hear)---and on the other there were
equally strong feelings to counterbalance that excite-
ment ; but he conjured their lordships, as they valued the
Constitution under which this country had oolong flourished,
as they valued their own rights. to show to the people of
England that they considered it to be their duty to delibe-
rate and to act without being influenced by intimidation, or
by their own private interests, bat that they would do their
duty as they ought to do, and leave the rest to Providence.
Ile, therefore, fearlessly left to 'heir decision his conduct on
tl is occasion, and he now moved, as an amendment to the
motion of the noble earl, that the words " now reed a second
time," he erased from the motion, and the words " be now
rejected," inserted in their stead. (Hear.)
Earl GREY.—Then the noble barons motion is to the
effect that the bill he reket, d altogether ?
Lord H A RNCLI FFE intimated such to be the fact.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then put the original
question from the woolauk.
The Earl of bl ULO RAVE said. the Noble Baron who
_ _

had just sat down had concluded by a motion the purport of
• which indicated a desire on his part, not only to refuse the
Bill an opportunity of being discussed in the Committee, but
a determination to reject it altogether. The noble baron h..d
a-s-rtcd that the arguments of which the noble earl had
availed himself in the speech which he made in suepott of
his motion, had env considerably increased the difficulties
attendant on the Bill ; and, looking at the speech of the
Noble Earl, he must say that great difficulties did pre-
sent themselves towards the passage of the Bill through
their Lorfehips' Illowie—but how did V* Noble Earl, fleet
them? He had used no threats; he had urged no language of
intimidation to induce wnynoble Lord in that House to give
up his opinions to suffer the Bill to make is way. No, the
Noble Earl hail only pointed to the signs of the times, and
had drawn from those signs the same conclusions that would
have been deduced by any one who viewed them in the game
light. The Noble Earl had showed their Lordships why
they ought to consent to pass the measure in•o a law ; and
be had also, on the tither hand, given their Lordships strong.
cogent, and ample reasons, why they should pause before
they hastily rejected it. •In the arguments which were for-
merly adduced against any plan for Reform which was
hrstuaht forward, it was very usual to say, that there were
no two reformers agreed upon the extent to which they
would have Reform carried ; but the tables were turn-
ed. for it would be as difficult now to find two reformers
who disagreed on this point. (Hear, hear, hear.) The
Bill, he must maintain, in spite of all the assertions to the
contrary. had met with an extraordinary degree of appro-
bation from all ;tarts of the country ; for it would carry such
e Reform as vomid completely satisfy the minds and the ex.
pectatious of every one. The nobk baron bad urged one
objection against the bill, which had been made available to
saute purpose 011 a former occasion ; and that was the ob.
ataeles which it would throw in the way of an unpopular
Minister to prevent him from obtaining a seat in the House
of Commons. This was a difficulty which he did not be.
I.eve would ever occur ' • nor was it likely to• occur, when
Ministers were actuated by such motives as those which
governed the actions of the present Ministers, who were
not snore sincere in their endeavour to pass this bill, than
they were in their steady refusal of all patronage ; and what
circumstance could prove this fact more strongly than their
. having consented to place the election of one branch
of the Legislature in the hands of the people. The
Noble Lord bad usenet' that, if it were the pleasure of the
people that the House of Lords should no lenges exist, he
would readily walk out of the House. Now, he did not
agree with the Noble Lord—(cheers, and hear);—for, in his
opinion, the House of Lords had repaid to the State, on
which they rca:, the privileges which they enjoyed, by the
support which they had uniformly afford that State ; and it
was still their duty, and he was convinced it wu their in.
tention to continue to do so, and they could • not do so
in a better manner than by resigning at once, and with
a good grace, the share which they possessed in the other
branch of the Legislature. The Noble Lord had, however,
asserted that the House of Lords would no longer have any
power to resist the measures of the other House of Parlia-
ment, after this measure had passed into a law.—On wee-
. rat most important questions that House had exercised an
opinion different from the other house of parliament, with-
out susraining any injury in the public estimation. He might
instance the criminal law—and the same woul I always be
the case when that house acted from disinterested motives ;
hut in the present case It was known that many members of
that beuse had a direct interest; and if none but the dis-
intcreited were to vote on the question, there would be a
large majority in favour of reform. (Hear.) The aristocracy
was powerful, as a balance of power between the King and
people; but powerless when it opposed itself to both. The
Mister, of the world proved that in an advanced state of
society en aristocracy could not long retain powers that
were disputed. A minority must in time give way, when
eke) opposed what was reasohable ; the artatoascy, if they
opposed the present bill, would be in a asininity, with two
to one against them, the King and the people. (Hear.)—
lit what state would the country be? 'Toes true the Con.
steution resided a remedy; but let no man conceal from
Minster' that if he voted against this bill, he voted against
the principle of Reform. (Great cheering from the opposi.
shin aide, with espiessions of dissent.) He saw there was
dissention in the camp; he was confident, that it' they de-
eland against this bill they could not embark in a more
tameless cause; and the consequences might be felt as lung
assay of them had inherited the privileges they would en.
danger.— ( Hear.)
Earl MANSFIELD felt so much emberrassed oat the
present occasion, that be feared he might loss from his re-
collection what he had intended to say. His noble friend
said there was disrousion in the camp. There were (litre.
MRCVS of opinion, but no dissension • on the contrary, there
was union in action and hopes; and in determination to do
their duty. (Hear, hear.) He was determined to vote fur
the reject ioo of de errant bilL (Hear.) Reform was not
necessary; and if it were, their lordships would not women
16 such a reform. (Hear, hear.) The rejection of the bill
should be simple, and not accompanied with any declaration
that would lead to delusion. An evil should be proved to
• exist before it was attempted to-provide a remedy. There
'nigh t be dela:m.lrue bethought tbeyw ere not unattended with
advantage. What was the evil ? ft was said a portion of the
House demo moos were appoluted by Peers,that they plunged
Britain is a long war, which ended by imposing ou France
a king she detested, and allied England wish all the despots
of leatope, and loaded the country with debt and taxes.
There was ao delusion opetated more on the people than
shat with a reformed parliament this war would not hate
oecuned, mid' the country would be spared the taxa.lon it
caused. Great Britain obtained by the war all that she ea-
petted trues it ; a peace that promised to be permanent ; and
wino the Speaker of the House of Commons offered the
great coonnander the tribute. St respect which he so much
viol gad, was there any disseationt usenet the people ? At
the commencement of the Fluid' eevolution France was
highly in favour of the people of this country, and it was
awing to the energy of the ilovernatent of that day that the
constitution was preserved. (Hear.) Was it the character
of popular .aisensblies to be peaceable ; (hear) He
couldspieal to history to prise the contrary. (Herer.)—
With a more popselet Parliameat we should have gone to
war; the cons. of out Seen and armies would have been
the sea* • bike would the • commanders •be allowed to con-
tinue in ehsb Oitnivantl t • Would 'the Date of Wslington
be allowed to remain behind his lines at Cintra, while popu-
lar craters weft predicting that a &Mak soldier would not
lichee in illeersagait —pleat.) Lad after alma bad beau
au. might not the esteemed faith, wick the public creditor
be Wake* t Tut ....••• at the advantages .now pro-
mised *am • lisfaimil bear.)
Had eta; tfYti •ffiriske 41.-Cinkiesse; ' else
dart .aisises mailmost • the pima
twenty-Eve ailiewitimes. strosied --as b-
luest of flee. •e1i5ra1.401.4•1•4. ma salsas aces
• • -

abolished. If this was the diameter of the House of
Commons he could not think it needed reformation. In the
resumption of cash payment, each of the different interests
complained that others obtained an advantage: that be
thought was a 'woof that they were equally balanced.—
There was one measure in which the House of Commons
acted against the opinion of their constituents, and lest theft
confidence—(the Catholic question). Some of his political
friends had thought him too much Inclined to reform. (A
laugh.) He thought there was a middle course; but he
thought also that there was no time in which good discretion
could be less expected than last year, when the *els In
France and Belgium produced so much excitement. (Hear.)
A change of Ministers then orb place ; and bills were
brought in for reforming the House of Commons ; but much
more extensive than was expected. He understood It was
the object of Ministers to place themselves on safe ground
between two hostile parties, and effect iteMrm without coo.
vulsion ; were they certain they could succeed ? It was
stated that the people were not represented in the House of
Commons as they had anciently been. But it was admitted that
a: all times the representation was compost dof knights, chi.
zens and burgesses. Would it be denied that members were re.
turned by the Crown—by individuals, and by close corpora.
tions ? The House of Commons, In the reign of James
the First, laid a claim to all the tights of the Commons of
Rngland, in which they mentioned the right of the free.
holders to return knights of the shire ; but not a word
against the right c f the King to give the power of sending
31embers to boroughs. (Hear, hear.) Parliament however
I continued its demands till that tragedy took place, which
he considered the result of concession. (Hear, hem.) Oli-
ver Cromwell contemplived such a reform as the modern
reformers had produced. (Hear.) But after the festered=
of Charles II his attempt to call in the charters was justly
reprobated, hut to a Parliament so et instituted we owed the
revolution and the succession of the house of flacover.—
( Hear.) Direct influence took place immediately after the re.
voluthai ; but our prosperity was advancing, though it
might be occasimally retarded. There warnow no direct in.
; and influence by means of place was greatly died.
niehed ; and the reformers could not Shell that their system
had ever bees in operation. (Hear, bear.) He would now
come to the bill which was considered an innovation. The
bill corsiated of two parts. First, the disfranchisement of
boroughs ; secondly, the creation of new Eremitism. There
welt no natural limits to the power of Pediment to disfran-
chise ; but Parliament would not do obi t wa.s unjust, and
he would therefore say, Parliament cou'd net disfranchise
boroughs. Either it was a trust, and sb uld not be taken
without futfeiture by misconduct; and if it was pro.
perry, it should not be taken without compensation.
The doctrine that the Church property be'onged to the
State, and that Henry the Rlgh:h went beyond I a
power, when be parcelled out Church property ansoogst
his (avoiding . would find gnat fewer In a r.forund,
Parliament.—(Cries of "bats bear.") . The Metope to
give the franchise to new plains was liable tome& objectiocs.
The census of 1821 was taken, though mot, iously defec-
tive ,• and it excluded from representation all towns that
might become populous in future. After giving the frau.
chise to householders in towns, they gave additional mem-
bers to counties, as a means of creating a balance of power
between population and the landed interest, by an arrange-
ment which had never been satisfactorily explained. Object.
ing to influence they divided counties in a manner which
would give a preponderating influence to particular persons.
( Hear.) They, in some places, confined the vote to the in-
habitants of towns ; in others, they extended it 17 miles.
He would ask, could such a settlement be final. As long as
there were towns in England not reptesented in proportion to
their numbers, so long would they complain of unequal re.
presentation. As long as there were poor voters there
would be bribery, which could only be prevented by a high
qualification, and as long as Goverment had any thing to
bestow on those by whom it was supported, they would be
charged with acting from interested motives. He therefore
objected to the bill from principle, convinced that it would
not remedy any existing defects. It was not long since the
Reformers were complaining of the apathy of the people,
now it was said the people must have reform. He did not
deny that there was a great Clamour for reform ; but be
thought the opinion of property was agahat the bill. (Hear
hear.) But allowing the people to be unanimous. their
lordships were to exercise their own judgment, to impress
oo the minds of the people that their interests were insepa-
rable, and that it was the interest of the Peers that the pen.
pie should enjoy their liberties in the fullest manner, and
that it was impossible the Lords could withhold their
consent from a measure that was for the good of the people.
—(Hear.) His Noble Friend bad truly said it was not
true that the Peen had no Interest in the Bill but that
they bad no separate interest.—( Hear, bear.) They were
threatened in no measured language by the press, that
their persons and property were to be attacked If they re.
jetted the Bill. He hoped no such riots would take place,
but he looked to the Government for their suppression if
they should. (Hear, hear.) Why should not their Lord-
ships on this as on many utber medals add their opinions
to that of the minority of the HOMO of Commons? Fain
would he sec the present excitement subside. (Hear, bear.)
If he could form a wish that could have effect. it would
be that the measure should have been postponed till
they could come to its consideration calmly. The
wish for change bad extended itself to all the institutions,
Church as well as state; the Inbeiltance of propertybythildrie
to be the same as in France Zand it proceeded even to ao in-
terferencewitlithe Inheritance of the crown. Hewouldinmeess
upon the minds of their Lordships that they were these that
night to decide upon the affairs of Ea , for to their insti-
tutions did Europe look; and should Refrain be convulsed
then would the only barrier that prevented innovation. be
removed fur ever. (Hear.) Where it might end no soe
could tell; it might lath to calamities that could not be
described. If their Lordships were to support his Majesty's
Alinisters they might as well range themselves wild their
enemies that waged war against their institudens. The I.
Noble Earl (Grey) had said be would not abandon the bill
until he saw that there was no chance of its being carried.
There were two ways in which the bill might be canted,
and one of them was by counselling the Crown to undue ha. 1,
fluence, There had been two new Peers introduced to that
house, and it had been ocularly asked If they meant to vote I
for the bill to save with their centerion.--(A laugh.) The
Noble Earl said that the measure !evolved painful medita-;
tion. The Noble Lord sat down midst immense cheering
from the Opposition.
Lord KING could not venture tailgate before his eyes
the picture of what the state of the country would be when
it was known that a proposal had been made to their Load
ships to give a positive rejection to the bill—a bill sent up '
to their Lordships by a gteat majority of the House of,
Commons (hear). The bill might be rejected, and that
rejection wouhl probably be considered

" Ira boom vincia recusentum."
He trusted, however, that though these lions might gratify
their resentment, they would be at Moat chained and its. •
dried harmless. He trusted that they would not loog be
allowed to exercise their nada. power to the prejstdise of the
interests of their country. The Noble Loa (Wharnellire)
mid in the coursed his speech. that he would advise the
Government to leave the measure alone for two years (hew,
and a laugh.) The Noble Lied said he wished he amahl
suggest some method d pacifying the country and of stop.
ping the progress of the present excitement, And bow did
the Noble Lord, who was so anxious to pat .an end to the
excitemen.. propose to accomplish his object? Why, he
would pacify the country by rejecting the Sill,. and laying
the people to indulge is all those ferliep of exasperation
which the disappointment of their hopes must excite. The
Noble Lord and his friends had met the question with a
pure and simple rejection. The Bill was, in their opinion,
too dangerous ever to be entertained. They 'wild not even
allow it tor tog Committee (No, no); bat if they met the
question with a decided negative, how were they to go to a
Lommittee (hear!) ? No, their Lordships would not even
consider the winks of the measure saw to them by
the House of Cabman ; and they rejector k in such
s spinner as to say that the country • wad', not to hope
from them that any Measure of HAAR IMould be
entertained (Strong expressions of dbitit from thaa
Opposition). Tom was ',sestet of the modem, and of kll
the speeches he had heard (No). If it was Dee hs knew
not wrist they meant. Tie uow came to anodic:question.
What were the evil the country complained of ? war, tiled,
and•debt. He did not deny that the people were too fond of
WWI but be contended that the people changed tbeir opi-
nion of its nennelfy matt • seater than the PselhisissiL=.,
Would tie SW war with America have continued so :May
yaws wider ' die authority d sr reformed House of Com-
ments P. But that was not the only evil.—the proprietors Of
ParliaMent Were now obi the peoprietros of the taxa. be
called diem prapiators of Parliament in the laws. al
Grattan, beams he did Wet wish so use the oilkosite
phrase CI borMashloollgen (Hear.) • Ho would tell Um
:noble Iced bow this peopristombip woad. Prom a list of
as awl peados% above 1,0001. a pi!, I* wigs As
eduse• of Commaisa, sad printed by eta ardor, .it wound
that the nietntioes of their lartioltiie blew ileolv4-absee
300,0001. a yew. out of the Mel aqd embeiwiee, under the

name of pensions, places, and salaries. This was the result
of the proprietorship system, and the nomination of mini.
ben of parliament. The noble lord and his friends laid great
stress on the worst part of the system, and seemed to think
the worst possessed the greatest merit. He (Lord King) re.
membered the time when no one would dare to mention such
things, and when the Speaker tithe other house would have
called any man to order who ventured to talk of nomination
boroughs. Now, however, the system was secogabod and
acknowledged, and members seemed to glory in whit Burke
called the rotten pan of the constitution. Corruption and
all its attendant abuses were stripped naked to she view.
There was no longer any disposition to conceal it. They were
told that the bill proposed a new eonstitutioo. Whose fault
was it that such a bill was now before them ? And he would
say man, that if they did not now concede this timely re-
form, they would perhaps be compelled to grant another
reform, which they would consider still more untimely than
even a very moderate reform was thought to be some years
ago• He would not say what might be the consequence.
They were tmidored to grant this reform to preserve the
peace of the country, and they should take heed lest they
forced the people to that general understanding respecting
the non payment of the tales, which they had threatened.
The people, it was well known, had for some time thought
that the taxes voted by a condemned House of Commons
Might, under certain contingencies, be refused. He would
not trouble their lordships further than to implore them to
consider well she consequences of what they were about
to do.

The ,Marquis of BUTR commenced by contending that
h 6 noble relation ( Lord Whanidiffe). although he had moved
a direct negative to the bill, wu not, therefore, to be con-
sidered wholly opposed to reform. His treble relation was
to be judged by his arguments, and not by the motion, for,
as far se he understood the opinions of the noble lord, they
were favourable to a very considerable degree of concession
to popular wishes. No man had ventured to assert in that
&smear elsewh.te, that the present system was perfectly cor-
rect ; but what they objected to was the bill. They said that,
if they were to havecelonn, it must be a reform rather two,
in conformity with she existing institutions of the ones*
He (Bute)wm decidedly of opinion that the people would toe
no great degree of benefit from any scheme of reform which
could be proposed ; but at the Paine time be was premed,
in common with others to make just and proper comm.
Moos to the feelings and opinions of those whose Intel&
gence and high moral character entitled them to demand at.
tendon. What he complained of was, that the Noble Earl
((trey) bad in the Bill united the most opposite principles;
and the only his tenon he felt in opposing it arose from the
respect which he was accustomed to pay to all the Noble
Earl's tyinimr, and to the respect be had for his character.
He contended, however, that the new system would give as
▪ sly nomination boroughs as the old, and that the Bill
mutely maimed the nomination from one band to another.
It was said that these nomination boroughs were dangerous
is the liberties of the country. He could not understand
st. It might do as an assertion for the hustingews a ta-
vern dinner, but it was too puerile and inconsistent to be used
eftewbere. Did any one mean to say, that there was not
greater security of property and liberty of action at the
present moment than under these times which were,
often referred to u the best and keightest of the
Constitution ? The boroughs were created mit the Takes,'
and they were selected, not for their riches or the number
of their population, but because the Crown wished to nuke
use of them to pronsote:its own arbitrary views. The neces-
sities of the Crown having, at a subsequent period, compel-
led it to part with its property and the estates en which the,
boroughs were situated, they became the property of the
Aristocracy; and they, in their turn, bad also been compel.
led to part with them; the consequence of which was, that
the power of the Aristromacy was now infinitely lees than it
was at the accession of the House of Hanover—the periods*
often triumphandy referred to as the mom glorious 9( the
Constitution. But how did the noble lord propose 'M
get rid of the Domination boroughs P Why, by sweepiag
away a great part of these boroughs, by destroying the
Corporations, and substituting for diem a uniform aye.
tem of tan-pound and three-shilling-and-sixpenny vs-
era. Every one knew the influence exercised is
amotry towns by attorneys and a certain class of moneyed
men, and the consequence would be to place all the otos.
seltuasey under the dictation of one or two individuals. The
Noble Lords wished, be had no doubt, to promote the
liberty and happiness, and morality, of the people ; but this
Bill was not calculated to promote their views. Nothing
was more carefully attended to by our ancestors than to m-
esses the hereditary principle if our Constitution in all its
coyiThat principle was the soul of the Monarchy. But by
ng the Corporations—by taking away those prlvihreps
which the present race ;of freemen enjoyed, and which sky
:tto troomnis to their children, this Bill destroyakawy,
ec4d destroying that, would injure the heading prim&
pie. and would certainly Injure the Mosossiy. He on not
a friend to abuses, sad if suck as mimed andi be correct.
ed, be should not object; but be mid sot eeriest to the
great changes proposed by this //1. It would not get rid
of nomination and corruption, and for these reasons he
mom to vote spina the Bill ; t he repeated dot
he should not object to any measure width would get rid of
ahem. The Bill, however, went whir—tie changes it im
traduced were so numerous and me oieleat.alue pried* ma
so new, that he could nut by soy peedhlety go the Mg& of
the BM He knew that manyNeik Lira who went farther
than be did would not anew to this MIL With reference to
that countrywithwhich hraiesosseemed(deotlend),lte would
. .

offer one °binnacles'. He admitted that the moss of repro-
**Deaths there establhited was incorrect in principle ; but be
denied that it had beeniakuieue in premien He wished to
say for himself disclose', and with ropiest• to the meaty
which bore his neon. shad what bed appeared be the
was not Correct. He admiteed that then wee en
exercised thete ; but it was again' but the kiwi* ef pee-
perty fairly exercised. As he as he was eenel;
• property would not be *used, rise the henento =
the bill. Individually be nee satisfied that his teemed
would be the same as befen. The Niels Led seadwied
by reiterating his ditanninsties he teem seem eie hdL
Lead WHAKNCLIFFE add, that he neduessaa iii
the motion he bed made to reject thew wadi hi esenlioni
as an Afton' to the House of Ownmens, whisk he hill
intention of offering. When he .need that the bill be re.
jetted, he was not aware that much was net the meal amuse,-
roe that the House of Clanneas male ennethe it as am
affront. With their lasedehlps' pleatimila he would beg
*have to withdraw this modes, and subethnel fee it " Tht.
the bill be read a second time this day sin meoshe."
Lied HOLLAND could assurethe House, shat he was
disposed to adopt the usual courtesy of the House. and
grant the request et the Noble Lord ; bat when he med.
,dried the motion foe the rejection of the MU was humid
I seam to the people of England that It was to be wholly re.
Sinot merely put off, be ain't object to the moths be.
rithdrawn_ (Imes hear 0. The Noble Earl opemmiee"
( I Mans&eld) hod amigned as his reason for sunsuit*
Hhe motion, sod fee rejecting the BiU. that it wouUsshe
ow from the people Whops of Itasca (bear, bear!). Hs
hyped he should is be considered pertinacious, shushes, it
Waimea to the withdrawal ef the motion (cheers).
Lord WHARNCLIFFIL: If his rums; weleasarad
to be would not dividi the house ea that teedeer eel"
other Noble Lett emikl move that the bill be read a semi
time that day six aionthe..-. • • I.
Lied HOLLAND reread that from the manner i•
which the quoin* hi& beat put; and the ensioner la width
It bad been supperted,. einapeestien being the ispesseasie•'
of the house, he could mot oosseent.ta the Noble Lord's wish
drawing it. (lieu.) •
Lord PLUNKETT said that the mumeu of the
Earl who supported the minim Mewed upon its form,
by withdrawing the modes the Noble Lad would
himself of that Noble Esil's support. After the (Mg"
had bees put there could be so dtecebelon or withdrawal of
It, and he foe sae should use anent es that.

TUB Beel• of el ANSFiliii;D Inept bear so onftleb hid
oars Whateirer hem tl* noble hed might have
put ble matiatt b, his momenta maid have been the area.
hHe elmehlend that be was sopper the nbetion of the
he wished it to be bet @boob brre-unia,_
'am. man Impulse had the node; boat to reed the .6111100.
dq du months. (Hoz bate. -Calle for Me taut 411100::
ewer and anent other Peas, who ion to mailmen the'
kleme
The LORD CH AMCALLOR all,lb nodes bad been
pat into his bends, and he yea bewails ont le. The noble
however, wished to withdraw thees 2 and dart be
woe :bound to allow It Do noble lord Bet fibre
wrawel.ee en objection, and be had no point tie with.
h d
• The .k:arl of SHAFTliliWilitT miplabed, •AO the it*
ib* the noble lord had to pawn. *nth {be weds WPM*
to be left out stand pen of ebe otteith",
• Jbel 01t1 Of admitted *art* hustratulllo4l the
triable earl wee anon, bat the :pot, that the
mud Vitt el ape liseaties.is fie* Illewheairwle other:
*Md. tor them, and thus eelliilPlOD 41#0. 411/1/1/414
tbe bin be rejected. Osnaidgehe IIW
debate bad been nadeeted,-.F4list lbw;
•• : •

session of the isstiss—sal ssit that the noble earl
M
bedispensell
_asi *at be dis nation in that
hem, imanonito bstro people deluded by any
he
et ssion..sesoklaWir &see War, be could not non..
sad to rf nestlas.loiNg wilt Amid be put in
the hoes kbi liimpospsseil nosed' of the house,
sad se Oat mike slks -miss d the Muse melt *to be taken,
that k ftbt be sew that disk hraddrs moved to reject a
haul up limn the Commona. Considering the dr.
aseadanoes under which the motto hod been made, and the
=expressed, he must object to the noble lord's being
In withdraw his motion.
_

The Marl of CA RNARVON said his Noble Friend bad
made his Motion inadvertently, and bad disavowed all in-
tention of affronting the House of Commons; but the
Ministers rammed him to his words, and would not con-
sent to receive his Noble Friend's explanation. He did not
envy them their dignified position In availing themselves of
such an inadvertence, and force his Noble Friend to ad.
here to a form of words be wished to abandon. He must
say that be did not think a single vote would be entrapped
by such a shallow and if be did not autortabacgreat respect
for the Noble Lords opposite, be should say, such a paltry
objection (cheers). It was only fair to allow his Noble
Friend to correct his verbal error (hear, bear!)
Lord HOLLAND rose to Order.

Lord KENYON mse to order, In the Gallery; but
Lord IYH AR NOLL FFE obtained possession of the House,
and avowed that his object was to have the Bill rejected ;
and whether be carried that into effect by making a motion
for rejecting it, or for reading it a second time that day six
mouths. the effect was the same. It was of no use to try 1
to puzzle the people out of doors with such distinctions. On
the other side, there was an attempt to force him into a
'aurae which would be considered as an aff.ont to the',
House of Cuminoas and the country.— Was It so, or was
it not ?

The LORD CHANCELLOR spoke to Order. There
was no question before the House. In order to give the
Noble Lord an opportunity of speaking, be would move that
the funher consideration of the question be adjourned.
Lord WHA RNC FFR repeated, that the noble lords
imputed to him a desire to affront the House of Commons.
(No.) He had not the smallest inteedon of doing any such
thing, and be gave the noble lords joy of their triumph ob-
tained by such means. But, between him and them, the
country would judge.
Lord HOLLAND repeated, that he would not consent
to the noble lord's wish, and assigned as a reason, because
putting the motion in that faun, would be highly advents.
geous to the cause of the bill.
The Earl of M ULO RAVE said that many of the argu.
menu of the noble Baton turned upon the inadvertence of
the ministers in drawing up the bill, and that the same spe-
cies of inadvertence which he attributed to them in the de-
tails of the bill be had himself been guilty of.
Lord WH Ait NCLIFFIC gave notice, that be would not
press the question to a division is the form be bad intro-
ducal& ; and some other noble lord would move that the bill
be read a second time that day six months.
Earl GREY did not *know what the noble lord meant
when he spoke of the triumph of the ministers, and when he
wished them joy of their triumph. The noble earl refetred
also again to the expressions used by the Earl of Mansfield,
as his reason for not consenting to the motion being with.
drawn. The motion ought to be placed upon the records of
parliament in the way in which it was introduced. (Hear.)
The Dukes( WELLINGTON said, that if the amend-
ment of his noble friend was really disrespectful to the House
of Commons. It certainly was a hule extraordinary that the
Ministers of the Crown were the persons who oppoood the
withdrawing of this disrespectful amendment. (Cheers.)
lie did not call upon noble lords to decide immediately;
but es they were going to adjourn, he would request them
to take the subject into their consideration during the night.
The Duke of RICHMOND said, that the only pa-
latable thing which that House could do towards the House
of Commons wu to let the bill be read a second time ; and,
therefore, if the noble lords wanted to pay respect to the
House of Commons, they knew how to effita it. (A laugh.)
Lord KENYON said, that the noble lord having stated
that the weeds of his modes were inadvertent, he thought
be ought to be allowed to withdraw it.
The Earl of RADNOR said, that as it appeared that the,
noble lord bad committed an inadvertence, be thought, on
the contrary, that the ministers were fully justified in taking
advantage of that babe:team ; as he understood it, how.
ever, the noble lord bad waded his woodman in this man-
ner, to express his entire reprobation of reform.
Lord W HARNCLIFFE said that the only object of his
amendment was to get rid of the bill : he meant nothing
disrespectful by it.
The Duke of BUCKINGHAM was about to address
their lordships. when
The Earl Of RADNOR remarked, that be had been about
to make a speech when tee Noble Dub had interrupted'
him (a laugh.) If the Bible Lord had not intended more
by his amendment thus on get rid of the bill, he did nut
see any objection to hie big Awed to withdraw it ; but,
otherwise, any advises. that could be reaped from his
inadvertence would helm the good of the country, and his
noble friends (the Makes') would do perfectly right to keep
it now that they heel Apt it.
The Dube. BUCKINGHAM said that he under-
stood that his ~hug had only moved for the purpose
of negativing the MU an& his impression had been, that
he would Imre ii by moving that the bill be reed
that day six =Wis. lf, however, his noble friend was
not Owed to withdraw his amendment. be (the Duke of
Buckhgbeni) begged leave to give notice that he should
take m appalairy of mein that the bill be read that
des!! ds' niselhe (bear, bear.)
The lade HADDINOTON said a few words, which
were inaudible below the Bar.
Lord HOLLAND said, that after the Noble Lord had
stated that he could assure the House that be bad not meant
anything disrespectful to the House of Commons by the
wording of his A1=848;104 he (Lord Holland) would no
longer oppose the withdrawal of the Amendment (bear!).
Lod WHARNCLIFFE then withdrew his motion, and,
as we understood, amid the confusion of their Lordships
quitting the House, subetinassiL '"fltat the Bill be read a
snood time that day Six Months," in its stead.
The House then Adjourned at a Quarter pest One, to
this day.
HOUSE OF COMMONS.

Ceased EVANS ressated petitions from Also:heater,
Ilheheidge, and Newels, for se enquiry into the ease of Mr.
and Mrs. Dead*.
Mr. LA MitERT prise. wed twelve petitions teem Ireland
for Mabandieg the yeomanry.

MI DUMB?. '
On the motion of Lord ALTHORP. the Howse resolved
itself into a Committee of Ways and Manx
Lord A LTHO RP said, oa this, probably the lest time
vs which hr should have midge to make a Inancial
statement darks the rooms esesia, be should briefly
state hie expectation from the ge,mome of the year. the
probable MOM of expiator*, sod the
The expmdinee mod at dais late p=stitle
the year be made with graft tban idler, as thaw
was now but a sigh ithirtor the of adore. Be
would Bet nempone the imam of reverse lam year with she
frialL • lie Se r=irthat the ders Babe allreinkaresegiAS, date
mem if
se am et *ties. hoe them he lad asinitid, would
Mime the asst to 1 to whist might Ite aide. 6
mid& Wino* mimeo of di Nay eastitim,
end the eiteellhe is the wise doles Or die inaidasin of tbe
year.' The Wide, In 18116 was 18, telditb would be
redwood, l the repeal of duties, to 111, The winos
of tors in enemas and Niche wined maid, la the two
yens' remote, amount to 4,47'),8001. bad the commaption
oestimmed trtalleamy but in cosseguance el lammed
the Ammar would mot moped 1,1311.4011. After
=sa'redtoldeme r trades, the memos fee this pee,
arft to the estimate made of the enesing garter instil be
47~1111, expeaditure to doe sdi* ef Vapeember
was 16.211;513L 'lid foe the mai of the year wail 42
41,71111,080 L hies a balsam of about 8011,08011 eh Vide
em a, Hier or- _ with the.. best able tw ilea a• ape*
opinion, be was aseared be might imalideady rely. Omm.
paetnp this with she siitimint made in last E it
'odd be seem lit din imam of tram was grim
be bed ism eilemsii, because be the made wo
for inereariii wisemptioa Orem the Mood's of
He wiebedwpw amain to two imply@ s atm was the elownb.
dim oldie country. It was well haws datthemodiegps 6114
for a bug time has against this amitry, *bleb bad cared i
ameidembitytheigitill the Bask.ants limitation ills eats
trey. Tbs Beak, however, bad modepeti *dreamt as Has
sea deqiwideowd; mod thettdrypevated soy facittne.
imam diet lavas Ye NM el the envisages ; ton they
wield mot tbamerildee 4 shut Nide to Maar,
they did,' they Night to teniimilbi sly Emir*
Bele diesounts, width sight be assailed with the weak
,:somesistates ; to pewee* -di • they-brew&m rile semi-
81se graiwn- market, wiyiefo gromed Noy
h. the sehelikteple viihe whited
mil mil ammo supoldeg ilis AA% fdHli

'11P4,w14

.

which was that hand of applying the surplus to the i Le, [4
of funded debt, it was applied to the purchase of delicieq ~c
bills, in the lands of die bank, which was so far an a 5..,. t'
warmsto them. Mon+, during the present quarter. .;
was a considerable falling off in the Customs, from the „T"'
counts be hod received Rom all the outports within the 4-t•
few days be had meson to believe that it would nut contit::e-
and that the mining quarter would be more favourabh, II;
should not longer detain the Committee than by niolii..
that towards making good the supply granted towards r 4;
Majesty,, thoool. ere be paid out of the consolidated fund the
w;,of 1,800
Mr. COULBURN thought the surplus of half a iiiillas,
with which the noble hut. was content, was infinitely It.„
than parliament had declared to be necessary for the pre*;.
video of the credit of the country. Might nut the noble kej
conceive that even in the three months of the year ti,le
were to come, circumstances might arise to absorb that
small surplus 1 The house had heretofore recognis.d tee
principle of reducing the debt by maintaining a suride,
revenue; and though the reduction might not be great, yet
it enabled Government to make a permanent reduction ai
the interest on a large portion of its amount. By thm
means he was enaWd- , the last year be was in office, tore.
commend to the House a reduction of taxation, amounting
to nearly 4,000,0001. He believed the reductions of dmy
by the Noble Lord had not produced the relief to the in.
dustrious dosses expected by the Noble Lord. The Coal
Duty, by some machinery too strong the Noble Lord to
contend with, had been in • greate continued me the
people, though lost to the revenue. did not think i; a
wise appropriation of the surplus to lay it out in the put.
chew of deficiency bills, which gave an advantage to the
I Bank, instead of the public. The state of the rev.nue.
however, evinced in its rapid progress the energies of the
coon ry.l-(Hear, hear.)
ale. hi ABERLY was surprised that the right hon. gcn.
tieman should endeavour to continue his fallacious vier of
of the sinking fund. The noble lord had laid one snort in
sinking fund than the actual surplus ; but that entirely arose
from the fallacious mode of estimating that surplus, to wh‘ch
be was compelled by the right boo. gentleman's bill. Tile
right hon. gent. complained that the sinking fund wag small ;
but it was much better for the country to have reduction of
taxation than a large sinking fund, and he considered the
noble lord's statement highly satisfactory; but certainly the
! noble lord would find it necessary to amend the right hon.
gentleman's bill for estimating the surplus applicable to the
reduction of debt during the current year.
Lord A LTHOKP said he found by expetierice that sp.
plying the surplus to the purchase of deficiency bills would
1 correct the defects of the bill passed while the right hon.
1 gentleman was in cake. His opinion was, that keeping up
a large surplus while the country was so burthened with tar.
Won was injurious to the country. He did did not thick
that experience proved that keeping up such a surplus had
any bamelicial effect an the funds.
Mr. H UM IC wished the noble lord to state the sums appli.
cable to the reduction of debt at the end al each quarter,
I which be thought would shew that the right hem. gent's bill
did not meek approbatios. He thought the melds lord would
Ibletbst atlas on dist bill was a delusion on the public.—
. He hail has eafesegioist to otake—that was the amount of
estremdkute. He hoped the noble lord would sus be able to
stets to *sheen a smut Weide. amuse. He hoped an
1 early oppertialty would he takememtleely temeheve the Bank
from its advances ; he thought do amble lord Wasted wisely
in applying the supine hi the mutat ald+busy Mk He
was confide* the melds bed woad idles Villaterest of the
debt most effectually by a eaduedes of andes. The public
would be more sathSed with his rednethai el tentien, than
with a large surplus. (Hear, hear.) Ille Amid mat beauty
to me the surplus reduced to 100,01 AL beam the more the
noble lord was pressed, the more he would reduce expiate.
(A laugh.)
Mr. 01/ULBURN rose to ask a question. He said a
paper had been laid before the house, by which it appeared
that 700,0001. had been melted down, and it had been paid
into the Beak In metal. He wished to know at whose ex.
pens* this had been done.
The CHANCELLOR of the £XCHEQURR in reply,
said that it had been found there was a surplus quantity of
silver currency beyond what the country could absorb, and
consequently a large quantity lay unprofitably on the hands
of the Bank, and which they wished to dispose of. They
had applied to him foe permission to melt it ; be had con.
sidered that he was not ex the bounds of duty in
giving his assent, but it would be- necesesry for him to
explain on what terms the tummies was accomplished.
The pound of sliver, which is worth Its., was divided into
des., consequently, to reduce it from coin to metal there wu
a samilice of 4s. per pound ; this loss bad beau defrayed by
the Bank, and the expense of melting had been defrayed by
the nation. The transaction, however, was rot yet clued.
and it might be a question for the House whether they
would allow a remuneration to the Bank. The conversation
dropped.
On the order of the day to being up the report on the
Scotch &fortis Bill bring read, several petitions were pre.
seated relating to the division of districts, and other matters
connected with the measure.