Star.
London, England, 1831-08-26 00:00:00

REFORM.

Lord ALTIIORP moved that the house resolve into a
C onwitece on the Reform bill.
Sir R. VYVTAN asked whether Government had re-
ceived any fur Mer assurance that the French troops would
withdraw from Belgium, and whether orders had b en
given to that effic.
Lord ALTHORP said, his Majesty's Government had
isceivcd SWUM/Mg that the French troops had received
orders to wi hdraw front Belgium. This Government never
had any retoon to doubt the assurances given on the subject
by ti;e Freneh Government. _ _

Sir H. PEEL said, the answer of the Noble Lard was
hiebly satisfactory. He lictertd no doubt had been ex-
pres.ed in that house of the good fifth of the 'tenth Go-
•vroment
The !muse resolved into tt•P Committee.

The CHAIRMAN sail, the question was that the blank
for rent in the twen'y•firat clame be filled up with the
tv;:!ils M.—Agreed to.
Mr. Al ACKI N NON said he had a motion to propose,
that in all cities end boroughs. where the number of Hr.
Rousts was from 300 to 500. the qualification should he the
occupation of a huts?. of 101. yearly value ; but %here the
mamba. or 101. 11.-uses wia from 600 to 1,000, that the
hnuse•rtnt to give a vote shou:d he 151. and where the
number of stmli I.oases was over 1,000 that the right o.
voting eh. uid h., given to 201. bou.eholder•.. Ile thought
the bill as it at ptesent. would give the right of voting
to too many of the lower elms. Toe hon. gentleman eon.
e►uded by at thirg a motion to the effect he stated, but on
tile soggesiian of the Chairman withdrew it, to move it as
a ride: at the end or rites_ dense.

On tie question that the taxes be paid to the int day of
Anglin! preceding voting,
Si.- ( HARLES WET HERELL !lia the shnle clause
',fluid introduce an pure a democracy into ,b: country as
c:tulti 1 e done short of universal enfrrage ; inde d in many
placer it would be universal stiffing:. Hr i.elieved there
fives not cne in twenty in the ~mace who understood the
clause. (1 laugh.) The facilities of bribery were so great,
that he might almost say it was impossible not to be
imbed. No alteration that could be made in the clause
could ever italuce hint to adopt it.
Lord A I.lllOl{P said the only ettbstatttial alteration
that had t.:kin place in the douse was. that any voter
el:limit-I a relit to vote on a rating of 101. a year, should
noe be compiled to prove the payment of his not, in addi-
tion in the payment of hie rates and taxes. Where he
claimed on the qualification of paying 101. rent, his proof of
having paid the weeding year's rent to the Ist of August
would Le sufficient The temptation to bribery would be
much leas than at present. He said that the Bill provided
so as to require the rates to be paid up till a certain date ;
and the rate-payer might ncelect or re:use to pay his rates,
even were it for nine months that might intervene between
that period and the election, and still be entitled to vote._
Thi, was the qualificatinti ; and there would always be an
ire nr, by which bribery would be made cheap ; for a can-
didete would only have to pay up the rates of the pauper
kind of coottituency to entitle them to vote; and, of course,
that was affording a facility for bribery; because the rates
or taxes could be paid by a friend without it being known
who had paid !helm The provision regarding the weekly
rilit.payers wts equally objectionable, as weans paying
rents by the week ; it would be absurd to reckon them a
regular canatituency. On that list there must always be a
deficiency every quince where the calculation was made up
to 101. The Learned Gentleman concluded with saying
that he did not believe any anteedatent that could be pro-
posed to the clause would make it practicable.
Mr. EWA RT remarked, that the learned gentleman had
formed a wrong concerion of weekly rent.payeis ; for in
Manchester, and other manufacturing towns. they were the
same as yearly tenants, except the difference that they paid
their run weekly instead of yearly.
Sr E. SUGDEN objected to the lowness of the qualifi-
cation in large towns; in London, for instance, a place for a
dog could not be had for less than 101. and consequently
there the predominant influence would be given to a lower
class over the higher class of householders. Besides, he
al.!. that what ia London would be considered low-rated
at 101. would be in other plates considered high at 61;

so that the standard sum named wu indecisive, and va-
rying in effect according to the place where the house was
situate. He also centended that a proviso should be mode
that not more than one person should vote for the same
tenement.
Mr. Alderman COPELAND also thought the qualifica-
tion too low in London. He thought it hard that it should
require in the parish of Manylebone to be rand at 241. to
qualify to vo•e in a vestry. and that 101. should qualify to
vne fora representative in parliament. He w•mitl wish the
rate of goaliticatioa to be lowetett in country plates—there
Al. would be enough ; hut the rates arising from 101. in
Ltrith n was a ntrrc tr fie. .

Lord A LTHOR p replied, and argued, that if the quali-
fications were low in large tnivvs, it VittA a preventive from
numbers ; and in country plactit, where the constituency was
smslicr, the influence was balanced by introducing a higher
class of constituents.

Mr. F. LL WM was convinced, that the clause under
consideration was one of the most important in the
bill, as it was to establish what was to be their
future constituetcy. He indulged in a few reflections
n reporters for not giving the spec-oes of honourable tnein.
tiers at lrigth, whereby the public out of the house were
deceived; for reporters, he said. had been in the habit of
giving the expressioits of hon. members without giving their
sraurnents, by which speakers hail been placed in difficult
situations in the public estimation who had b en sent to urge
their arguments. He would ask the noble lord if he thought
that by the bill he had gained his object, namely, of placing
the franchise in hand' that would use it according to their
own understanding without being affected by sinister mo.
tires. The hon. winter said, he thought that the persons
who had framed the present bill had had no other view but
wrest the el-etive system out of hands that it had tested
in, without taking into account the convequcnces ; it had
been levelled against the influence of the great, without
thinking what it was to substitute in its stead. He
thought that five pounds WAS a sufficient high rote to
caalify fir :he COO 11!Tf. and ten pounds was too low for
Inndon. As far as regarded London,it amounted to universal
suffrage to mire one who passessed a house. The hon.
member at great length reprobated the odium that had been
cast upon certain boroughs for corruption and bribery, while
he instanced other circumstances that had not been at ell al.
lutle.l to. 11: contended that the distinctions which the bill
pri fessed to make did not exist in truth, but was hostile to
the principles of reform, the object of which ought to be to
form a ennetituency which were most likely to appreciate the
value of their franchise. lie was convinced that every one j
who knew any thing at all of the system of bribery, must j
know that it rested more among those of 101. and upwnrds
than below that rate. The hon. member recited a number
of cases in point, and said, that if they wished to prevent si.l
miler reenrrences, they must raise the rate in London much
above 101. He would have recommended the noble lord to
have e tnfined his attention fer the selection of constituents to
those who paid parish rives and king's taxes; but in such a
parish as Mary-le.bone, to limit voters to one-third, and that
the highest, of the ratepayers.
M'. 1.. BULWER thought that all the arguments which
had been brought forward from hon. gentlemen opposite
against the bill had been advanced at least a hundred times,
and a hundred times had they been answered; but it appeared
to him that the hon. gentlemen did not really know when
their arguments were answered— (hear. hear)—far night after I
night they came down and repeated the Ram things. The
hon. member entered into a long disquisition ow the clause,
which he declared to be judiciously framed for the fair be.
of influence.

Mr. LEWIS and Mr. BULWER mutually explained.
Mr. TREVOR thought the clause gave the franchise to
persons either swayed by the democratic passion, or ems-
sible to bribery and corruption. Never let him be told that
the 101. householders it Deptford, Greenwich, and the pur-
lieus of London were less accessble to corruption that the
non resident freemen who were to be deprived of their rights.
The bill would produce disappointment ; already many of
its supporters had fallen off in their zesl.

Lord J. RUSSELL observed, that the most convenient
course would he to discuss the fgencral merits of the
clause, when the question that the clause stand part of the
bill was put ; it was inexpedient to discuss the general
merits in the midst of the amendments. (Hear.)
Mr. WYNN apprehend. d that the discussion on the ge.
neral merits would come on at too late an hour.
Lord J. RUSSELL said, Ministers would not insist on
passing the clause that evening, if sufficient time did not re.
main for the discussion of the general merits.
( Hear from Mr. WYNN)
Colonel SI RTHORPR had been informed, that during
bis absence his name his name had been brought forward
by the Member for St. Tees, who had accused him of speak-
ing too frequently. Now, though what he said might not
be very palatable to that hon member, or his constituents,
that would not prevent him from from speaking ; on the
contrary, it would induce him to speak twice as often. He
had been represented In the papers as complaining of bis
(Col. Sibthorpe's) no being able to obtain a patient hear-
ing. But he had said that, not of himsclf in particular,
but of members in general. The Interruptions last night
had been such that he had been on the point of asking the
Chairman to read the Riot Act.

A M EMBER complained of the general merits of the
clause having been discuasal for two or three hours.
After a few words from Major MACNAMARA and
Mr. LEWIS,
Mr. WETLAND said, the houses between 101. sad
201. value, were twice as numerous as those above 201. The
clamor was ton democratic.

Mr. HUNT was afraid he would Imbibe the jeneral
mania—impatience at the slow progress of the bill. For
three hour* he hid not beard an allusion to the question be.
fore the house. He begged the Chairman to remind the
house of the question before them.
The CHAIRMAN said, the question was the omission
of the words," and in respect of which house, warehouse, or
coustin4-house respectively, all the rents. rates, and taxes
then due shall have been paid," contained in the old print
of the b:II.

Mr. HUNT proceeded to deny that the 101. house-
holders would be bribed. Ile contended that the more nu-
merous the electors the more difficult it would be to bribe
them. He defied any one to bribe the 7,000 electors of
Preston. Ho admitted there was a great distinction between
the 101. voters of London and those of the provincial towns ;
In London a house in the smallest alley was of 151. and,
moreover, that house might contain several lodgers paying
more than 101. a-year for a single room. (Hear, from the
opposition.)
Sir R. PEEL was willing to postpone, according to the
suggestion of the noble lord, the discussion of the general
lot rats of the clause until the various amendmatts had been
t'i•posrd of. He began to sympathize with the noble lords
opposite, at the delays offered to the bill, not by his (Sir It.
PA) friends, but by the supporters of the bill. (Hear,
hear.) One of the supporters had given no less than four
not'e.s of motions; he found the words Hugh Hughes
no leas than four timca, among the notices of motions.—
( Hear, and a laugh.) He should only make one ob-
servation :—To qualify a voter under the bill, his rent must
have been previously paid. Now, in the midland counties
it was customary to give three months' credit to tenants.
The bill required that the rent due previously to the
Ist of July should have been acquitted on or before
the last day of August in the sante year. The effect would
be to alter the long•existing practice of a three month;
credit. Ile apprehended that this would create a dissatin.l
faction. _

Lord J. RUSSELL paid, an individual who could prove
Wm 101. rent by hie rwes and talcs, would be only requited
to have paid the aspepped taxes and the poor-rates due up to
the l•t of July.

Sir K. PEIL said, this was opening a way to bribery. A
esndidate might pay up the taxes and rates of an insolvent
tenant.

Va. WYNN had seen in Westminster the rates and taxes
diu. paid up by candidates, in order to qualify individuals
as electors. It was the general practice not to collect rents
in Westminster between July and August, a great part of
the respectable inhabitants being then out of town.

Lord A LTIIO RP found it necessary to repeat an answer
he had already made in the beginning of the evening. At
present thy rates and taxes were paid up by the candidate
at t►e elmtion, tut under the bill the rates and taxes must
be paid up between all the periods of registration.—(Hear.)
After some more convetsation on this point between Sir
R. PEEL, Mr. WYN w, Lord ALTUoap, and Col. Davin,
Mr HUNT said the clause to compel every poor tenant In
the kingdom to pay his rent before he could vote, was a
landlord's clause. (Coughing.) The country would know
who the coughing came from ; he would di►ide the house
upon it.
Mr. HARVEY said, no rent due at Midsummer was
ever paid on the Ist of July ; and to say that no person whose
Midsummer rent wa• not paid by the Ist of July should rote,
would greatly curtail the franchise.
Lord A LTHORP said, he should have no objection to
make the payment, not the rent due oa the Ist of July, but
the tent due on the 2:td of June, which being one day

before Midsummer, would in reality be the rent due the
quarter, or the half year, previous to Midsummer..
Mr. HUNT was proceeding to argue against making the
payment of rent necessary to qualify the voter, when the
Committee became very impatient ; and Mr. Hunt said, as
'he was not to be heard, he would move an adjournment.
This restored silence, and he repeated that the clause was •
landlord's clause, and had never before formed any queli6-
cation for voting for representatives. He moved that the
word " rent" be omitted in vise clause.
The Committee divided—
Ayes for the original motion.. 963
Noes

Majority against Mr. Hunt's am.ntlment 243
The blank was then tilled up with the words 101.
Mr. CA3IPBEI,I. said, he wished to remove from the
bill what he considered a great defect, the admission of
wedcly tenants and lodgers, for he considered the terms ay.
nodimous, to the elective franchise. The landlord would
let for a year, but on the conddion that the rent should be
paid weekly, and that the tenant should take a weekly notice
to quit, which would in effect be a weekly tenantcy, and give
a vote in virtue of the occupancy of houses, that if let yearly
would rot let for more than M. a year. The remedy was to
prevent any person voting from the occupancy of a house,
the rent of which was paid more than four times a year.
The effect of the clause as it stood at present, would be to
throw an enormous power into the hands of the landlords of
101. houses, who, if their tenants refused to vote according
to their dirstion, could turn Silent out of their houses and
disfranchise them in a week. Tnere was one landlord in
Southwark who had 500 such houses : how great must be
his induence In an election ! The hen. gentleman concluded
by moving an amendment, that no occupier of a house, the
rent of which was paid more than foiir times a year, should
be entitled to ewe in virtue of such occupancy.
Lord ALTII4 )1; p perf:c ly agreed that the amendment
proposed by the bun. hem. was debut... Mg of consideration ;
but sill it was one in wide. he could not agree. In some
eases the tenants might be persons to whom tha landlord
would not give. credit ; hot in most cases where the persons
e_cupied a ten pound house fur a year, they were so industri.
nos and respectable as to be twilled to exercise the elective
franchise. Ile really believed the effect of agreeing to the
hon. gent's antendment would be to dlsfranchisa the ma•
jority of workmen in manufacturing towns.
Mr. FERGUSON said it was tar from being his inten-
tion to throw any obstruction in the way of the progress of
the Dill; but he must cordially support the amendment of
his learned friend. There world he more bribery and cor-
ruption under the present Bill, if the amendment was re-
jected, than had been hitherto known. The landlord might
disfranchise all his tenants the day before the election.
Mr. W. EVANS could say of his own knowlege, that
in his neighbourhood many tenants who paid their rent
weekly, occupied their houses many years, and were very
respectable, and fit to enjoy the elective franchise.
Mr. HUGHES HUGHES opposed the amendment.
Mr. PEA RSF. opposed the clause in a few words, which
were inaudible in the gallery, and supported the amend-
ment.

Mr. O'CONNELL said a great number of persons in the
manufacturing districts, where it was :mportant that the bill
should be well received, would be deprived of their franchise
by the amendment of the bon. gent. (Hear.) He was of a
very different opinion from the hon. member for Kirkcud-
bright; a weekly tenantry he (Mr. O'Connell) thought
ought to be encouraged, they formed a large and respectable
portion of the community, in whom habits of savirg end
economy ought to be encouraged.
Mr. FERGUSON and Mr. O'C44l‘l NELL explained.
Sir JAMES SCAftLETT said no doubt all the radical
reformers would oppose the amendment, and as hr was nut
a radical reformer, and Lever would be one, he should sup.
port it.
The ATTORNEY-GENERA I, said, he believed the
honourable and learned gentleman was no radical reformer ;
indeed, in the course of these discussions it had nut appeared
to him that the hOnourable and learned gentleman was a re.
former at all. (A laugh.) His Majesty's minis ors stood in
their places for the good of the people of England, who
were only to be made to tweet the laws by having a share in
the se presentation of the country. (Hear.) It was not to
be endured that the thriving workman in a mill or a manu-
factory should be shut out from his share in the elective Iran-
chise ; be could not vote for an amendment which disfran-
chised the most intelligent, the most independent, and the
respectable part of the community. (Hear.)
Sir ROBERT PEEL asked why it was that the hoe.
and learned gentleman now characterised the weekly tenants
as the most intelligent and independent class, when it
would be recollected that only ►ix weeks ago that class was
to be entirely disfranchised, or rather were to have no fran.
chise at all; the fact was, that Ministers were ashamed of
the monster they had made, and now found it necessary to
mare down to the people, because they found hopes had been
excited which might never be realised. (Cheers from the
Oppoeition.) He contended there was no class so entirely
dependent as the weekly tenants, who might be turned out
en a week's notice, if any vindictive feeling on the part of
the landlord were to be gratified. (Hear.)
Mr. DENNISON supported the amendment.
After a few words from Lord Vithixits,
Mr. CROKER said, that the Scotch reform bill was laid
on the table so lately as July last, and was founded entirely
upon the same nefarious principle as the present clause.
The ATTORNEY-GENERAL and Mr. CHOKER
explained.
Mr. HUNT said, that the friends of Reform might as
well throw out the bill altogether as riot support ministers
on the present occasion by voting against the amendment.
Mr. CAMPBELL briefly replied.
Lord J. RUSSELL said it was a very common clause la
leases that the landlord do give notice to quit at pleasure.
After a few words from Mr. CAMPBELL and Mr. Gls.
11013111. the House divided, when there appeared—
For the Amendment......... 143
Against it .. 210

Majority for Minist rs ... 68
The CHAIRMAN dam reported progress, and obtained
leave to sit again this day.
The other orders of the day were then disposed of, and
the house adjourned at Half.past Two o'Clock.
It is of importance to observe that, exclusive of the ma.
jail) of 210 in favour of Ministers, there were 14 members
who usually rote with Ministers, but who voted for Mr.
Campbell's amendment in the minority of 142.
LIST Or TIIO,II RAO USUALLY SUPPOkT Till BILL,
BUT WHO VOTED IN TNT MINOTITY or 142 AGAINST
HIS MAJESTY'S 31trasTEns roa Ma. CAMPBELL'S
AMENDMENT.
Adeane, H. J. Greene, T. B.
Agnew, Sir A. Harcourt, G.
Belgrase, Lord Hudson, John
Brahmin, Lord Johnstone, J. H.
Chster, W. H. Willoughby, Sir H.
Davies, Col. Wrightson, W.
Benison, J. R. Teller.
Ferguson, C. Campbell, John

RECOVERY OF THE PRINCESS OF ORANGE'S
JEWELS.
Our readers will doubtless recollect that the palace of the
Prince of Orange, at Thom's, was entered at night in the
month of September, 1829, and robbed of all the jewels
belonging to the Princess, amounting in value to the sum
of one million of dollars. The affair created a very
great sensation at the time, and immense rewards
were offered in all the prir.cipal cities of the continent, for
the recovery, but all to to purpose. The Dutch Consul
in this city also offered a reward of 50,000 guilders, (20,000
dollars) and gave a particular description of the articles
stolen. Shortly after the robbery took place, it was strongly
intimated that the Prince himself had disposed of these va-
luables, to meet his own urgent necessities. But an occur-
tenet has just taken place in this city, which is calculated to
relieve the Prince from odium that might still attach to his
character in consequence of these suspicions, and also torn-
tore to the Princess a portion of her stolen property.
The value of the jewellery recovered is sale to be at least
one hundred thousand dollars. Among them is a sapphire,
weighing sixty-one carats, which is, as we learn, the
largest sapphire in Europe.
Thus has the most extensive robbery on record been dis-
covered after such a lapse of time, when the occurrence had
been almost forgotten by all except those who were more im-
mediately interested.
The Italian, on whom part of the jewels of the Prince of
Orange were found, was taken prisoner on Saturday evening,
on Long Island, about two miles hom the ferry, by Wil-
liam A. Seeley, Esq. Autoeney at Law, accompanied by
three or four of our police officers. The robber was routed,
and attempted to make his escape by running, and for some
time had the advantage of his four pursuers; but Correa'
(for this is one of his names) tumbled in grossing a ditch,
and fell; and 3lr. Seeley, being nearest to lihn,4lll on him,
and held him long enough to receive the assistance of the
officers.—(New Pork (;ault', July 30.)