Star.
London, England, 1823-02-20 00:00:00

•
two Departments-at the Tower and P.lll,wrall should' Tor,. /I% ember thought. ST tocbirjkbitri with the
Gentleman with little. Vefd
be consolidated, and most properly so, for no mode
design to " mane
weever invented to increase expenses equal.to.this. reproached the Rea.es' the. martel.--411
Chatham might have enemies in that House, but never
He believed there were -ten clerks to carry on the
had he done that to deserve such a sentence as had
correspondence, and they were paid their travelling
escaped the lips of die Hon. Gentleman ; acrd; least of
expenses
between the two offices. They recommended
also one place of receiving the stores instead of their all, when in the discharge of a religious duty.. Lord
being taken in first at the Tower and then sent to Chatham having deliberately considered the matter,
Woolwich. Another grievance was, that individuals did express his astcnishment that the mind of man
were allowed a certain sum for house rent, and houses could conceive the necessity of asking such a question,
were built considerably beyond the ratio of the allow- and this was heightened by the reflection of the se-
ance. For instance, a storekeeper was allotted 50/. spectable names which had filled the appointment.—
for that purpose, and a house which cost 40006. was Ile explained what had been overlooked by the Hon.
built for him. He believed the Department possessed Member, that lie should not have spoken so much on
:300 or 400 houses, and one half of these were distant the subject, but that the Commissioners had asked
from the individuals for whom they were intended. him to go into detail, in consideration of the import-
The Hon. Member concluded by moving-- ante of the subject; and it was in the honest endea-,
" That, as the Commissioners for Military Inquiry have re- your to meet that request that the Noble Earl had
tv•rted, in their 13th Report, that according to their belief, provoked the Honourable Member's charee of having
founded upon the information given to them, the appointment 44
managed" the matter between the oath by which
tal Lieutenant-General of the Ordnance is nor essential to the
..xistitution of tbe Board in time of war, this House is of opinion he svgs bound and the interests of others—(Hear).—
that the recent appointment of Lord Beresford, in time of peace, Independently of what the Lieutenant-General was
is incomlstent with the recommendations of the said Report, at instructed to do in the absence of the Master-Gene-
anance with the professions of Economy lately delivered from ral, he had several specific duties extending over the
tndi
the Throne, and contrary to the interests of the country, which •
. tary questions upon
in its present state requires that economy in the State which will which, in the diversity of bu-
retrench everything not absolutely necessary to the country." mess that came under the cognizance of the Board,
The question having been put front the Chair, that Officer was eminently useful. If the House
Mr. WARD ro-e.—He had, he said, to charge the would look at the nature of the appointment with
Hon. Member with having put words into the mouths this view, they would see that they were all filled up
of the Commissioners for Military Inquiry which they by men of great military experience and eminence.'
never used, and with having attributed to them, in He need only mention the late lamented Sir Hildes
the paper which he had actually put into the hands brand Oakes, Lord Amherst, Lord Howe, with a
of the Chair, sentiments which were not only not cor• string of others of the same stamp to prove his posi-
rect, but the very reverse of what was correct, as tion. The Hon. Member would do much {setter he
coming from them. The [lon. Member made them could assure him to move for the abolition of his
say, in the body of his motion, that the appointment (Mr. Ward's) office, than that of the Lieutenant-Ge.
of a Lieutenant-General of Ordnance was unneces- neral. The lion. Member then went to the evidence
sary in time of war.—(Mr. 'Wale here attempted to of Mr. Crew, whom he raised up against Lord Chat-
addsessthe Chairestitevas called to order by the House.) ham. Mr. Crew said, that besides, as a Member'of
—Mr. WARD understood the Hon. Member to per- .the Board, he knew of nothing the Lieutenant-Gene-
sist in his motion; or did he deny it was as he had ral had to do. But he entirely omitted his duties al-
stated ii ? In that case, he wished the motion to be read. together distinct from the Board : on the shores of
The Clei k then read the motion, and upon coming the River, at the Tower, and at Woolwich, in regu•e
to the word e Board," first occurring, was stopped by hating and superintending the exercise of the corpse
Mellume,with the understanding, that die words "in and all appertaining to the military constitution of
time of war" were to be omitted. it, as well as the surveying of the Pensioners, as was
Mr. WARD resu.ned.—lle had no objection to done at Greenwich Hospital. Next the Honourable
take it as the Honourable Member wished. The Member, if he rightly understood him, directed him-
Honourable Member, he must say, was always ready self to she" the House the necessity of abolishing
enough to admit facts, when he understood them. the Lieutenant-General's Clerks. He did not mean"
He-believed his best way of dealing with the House to quarrel with the Honourable Gentleman here;
and the Honourable Gentleman would be, to divide for these Clerks had been abolished ten years ago—.
into three parts what he had to say relative to the (A loud laugh)—and upon his (Mr. Ward's) motion.'
case of the Honourable Gentleman. First, then, he He hoped, therefore, the House would not run away
would endeavour to shew that lie had misrepresented with the idea that the offices still existed. He did not
the Commissioners; next, that the Commissioners know whether the House would expect that he should
had themselves misrepresented the evidence upon follow the Honourable Meinber for Aberdeen through
which they professed to found their Report; and all his various topics and gambled statements. He did
lastly, that supposing both to be correct in their re- not wish to use harsh expressions towards the Hon.
presentations, he would contend that such an alters- Member, nor do him the injustice to attribute his'mis-
tion had taken place in the business of the depart- takes to him as designed ; but having only two years
meat, that it was totally impossible to atteild to the ago fought a pitched battle with the Hori.Gentleman
recommendations of the Military Commissioners— on precisely the same ground, he did not think it was
(Hear, hear).--He had given credit to the Honour- altogether requisite that he should again enter into
able Member for honesty in his statements to the the same field of discussion. On that occasion the
House; but he was sorry to follow this up by ex- Hon. Member, as was customary with him, had made
posing his garbled quotations from the Report in an attack upon him of nearly two heurs duration,
question, to assist his case, by leaving out much which without giving any previous notice of his intention ;
came after what he had thought proper to read to but such lie might say was the integrity of the Office,
the House. He eMr. Ward) would read the real that, without a figure in his pocket, or preliminary
Report, and leave it to the memories of Honourable calculation o( any kind, he was able to compute fin
Members to mark the difference—(ffear, hear).— the spot, to the discomfiture of the Hon. Member.—
Two years ago, in making a similar motion, the Hon. The motion of the Hon. Gentleman said, that the
Member read fi om the Report as follows:--" It ap- office of Lieutenant-General was unnecessary; but
pears from the evidence laid before us, that the ap- the Hon. Gentleman said, that the whole Ordnance
pointment of Lieutenant-General is not essential to was unnecessary. When, too, he thought fit to bring
the constitution of this department." There the Hon. forward motions which threatened the situation Of.
Member formerly stopped ; and there, to his utter clerks and dependents upon Government, he thought
astonishment, lie again stopped that night. Let the it would be but fair and generous in the Honourable
House, however, listen to the Report, and judge be- Gentleman to give notice, in order that the unfortu-
tween them, whether the Commissioners had or had nate individuals, whose only means or subsistence
not been misrepresented, and the expression of their were thus put in jeopardy, might have time to look
opinions garbled by the Hon. Member or not. It about them. But it was always in this sort of way
went on to say—" especially if it be understood that that the Honourable Member acted, when he pur-
the attention of the Master-General be not withdrawn posed taking such a course. He had again resorted
to the duties of other appointments:'—(Hear, hear).— to his favourite practice of comparing the present
This expression, it was obvious, altered the whole; establishments with those of 1792, and in the pre-
because, for the Report to go along with the Hon. sent case with his usual pertinence and fairness.—
Member, the office of Master-General must be en- When the difference of expenditure was pointed out,
Lively new cast. But the Report still went on to say, it ought also to be shewn the difference there was in
that " if that should not take place, we have nothing the bulk of the establishment. In 1792, for instance,
to offer on the appointment of Lieutenant-General.' the corps was 4,000 strong; now it was 8,000. At
The Report here referred to the recommendation, that that period there was no Horse Artillery ; there v ere
the Master-General should have no other appoint- no Sappers and `Miners : then they had a Half-pay
meats of a former Report. But this was suppressed List of I:20.000, now it amounted to £400,000
(he ought to .say omitted; and he thought he was en- (Hear, hear).—ln 1792, we had four or five colonies:
titled to express a little surprise that a man of such now we had the West Indies, with the sixteen new
laborious research should not have observed, and of colonies added by the war. They had great arrears
such honesty should have omitted a second time to put of accounts to deal with—(Hear, from Mr. flume).—
the House in possession of this very essential re- But those arrears, he begged to remind the Honour-
=tinder part of the Report—(Hear, hear, hear).— able Member who had done him the honour to cheer
The Report then said—" It was only in consequence him, arose from the want of that strength which the
el this recommendation that it occurred to us to ex- Honourable Member not only denied them, but en-
press this opinion on the appointment of Lieutenant- deavoured to make still more requisite. It was not
General, and unless this preliminary arrangement be from laziness, but penury. He could not conclude
effected, we have nothing to offer on the subject"— without adverting to a most gross, unjust, and cruel
(Hear, hear).—Next he would endeavour -to shew, misrepresentation in which the Honourable Member
that the Commissioners had themselves not under- had indulged: he alluded to the unqualified manner{,
stood Lord Moira when they gave it as his opinion in which he had spoken of Colonel Chapman, giving
that the utility of the Lieutenant-General was con- out that he had taken £4OO a year to retire from of-s
lingent on the absence or illness of the Master-Gene- fice, to make room for some one else. It was upon,
sal. Neither were they right in attributing to Lord this statement that he appealed to the justice of the'
Chatham the same opinion " in a great measure."— most inveterate opponent of Government, and even,
Directly the reverse was the fact. Lord Moira's evi. of the Honourable Gentleman himself, for he was
dente went to say, that he had no other business but not, he believed, an ill-natured man, to give a Yes-
as aelember of the Board—therefore, for anything the dict in that gallant Officer's favour, against the
Commissioners had stated he might have other great aspersions which had been cast upon hima-(Hear).—
°rid important business attached to his appointment. It was through his Grace the Duke of Wellington
lord Moira said he formed the link which united the that Colonel Chapman had received the benefit con-
Civil and military duties of the department, and they plained of. Colonel Chapman, as they all knew, was
end the Honourable Gentleman opposite (Mr. Hume) a meritorious and gallant officer of engineers. He
would have done well to have stopped them The WAS the only one surviving engineer of those who
Commissioners said, that tt an Officer who had been enabled the Duke of Wellington to achieve the coin-
SO long at the head of the department was entitled to pletion of the lines of Torres Vedras, which, by nn
oome consideration ;6 and in that he (Mr. Ward) per- impregnable barrier, accomplished the perfect secu-
key agreed with them ; and also, " that the Mas. iity and defence of Portugal, by which his Grace had
keeknerel was frequently absent." The Hon. Mem- rendered himself immortal. Colonel Chapman was
had been guilty of great injustice towards Lord principally useful to his Grace in that work, and
wham, in charging him with what he did not under the circumstances lie had already stated, was
mean to say did not accord with the real belief- of recommended by him to the consideration of Go•
114 HOnourable Member, with criminal conduct, be- vernment to be rewarded for his. zealous services.
dose, when on his oath, he desired to have, more He obtained the appointment alluded to by the
time to answer on a point of much importance.— Hon. Gentleman, and when that was done away
S irely this was what every virtuous and correct man, with, he claimed the benefit intended to be con-
wished to afford a true statement in apse-es) (erred on him by the situation. This was the hiss
eeald do ; and it was upon the strength of it that the ..tore of that gallant officcis pensitm of £-&00 a

.year, which, ,by . the Honourable Member, had
~.Cisatacterised as A, job—(lkar, •heat)..
He was glad frosit the Henentable Mersibeivelseers,
to see that he was open toeonviction. The 41444*
Was false, crud, and unjust ; and if any '0;4'14 im•
puled it to that gallant Officer, so as to make.the
HOnonrable Member believe it and.bring it forward
here, he would make bold to say, he was guilty of a
most malignant and nefarious deception. After
having laboured night and day to. enable iwco of,
this country to accomplish the peat week oi. salvo.
tion, as he hal done, it was too mach afterwards to!
be taunted in the British House of Commoirs**ith
plication in a miserable, dirty job—(Hea4itisr.,,frow,
both sides of the dowse).-.-If those cheers. meant ,re.
tractation on the part of the Hon. Member, then he
would retract all he had said on the subjectL-(ffear,
hear, from Mr. Hume).—}laving thus brought
down what was fitting to satisfy the feelings of the
Honourable individual in question, he (Mr. Ward)
would rest contented. Returning, therefore, to the
question., he would abstain from following the
Honourable Gentleman through the general invec-
tive he had dealt in, and confine himself to the
single point, whether the appointment of Lieutenant-
General of the Ordnance were a good one or not.--
If the whole system had been, as so frequently de-
clared by the Hon. Member, corrupt, he would have
'come down to that House and demolished then long
since, by piecemeal, whereas he had been foiled. in
every attempt, either in generals or in particulars.—
How could the Hon. Member undertake to say how
the business of the department was conducted during,
the- late pet iod of vacancy ? Was he in the precincts
of the office during that time? For his part he (Mr.
Ward) could undertake to say, that his gallant friend
behind him, the Surveyor-General (Sir U. B. Burgh),
had been so overwhelmed with business as to be,com-
Lpelled to work for a long time after the office hours,
at his own residence, and this too, when his gallant
friend possessed so much greater a facility of getting
through them himself. Frequently had he intreated
him (Mr. Ward) to go with him to assist to keep the
business under; but he had positively refused—(A
l•aare,h).—They were, it was true, the servants of the
Public ; but that did not mean that they were slaves
—(Hear).—They were, he would venture to say, as
patriotic as the Hon. Member for Aberdeen, al-
though 'they might not possess his strength of mind
or body. For his own part he was sure he could not
boast of a mind like his ; his brain, he was sure,would,
not bear half what the lion. Member's must suffer.—.
With these advantages, he most sincerely wished it
were in his power to persuade the Hon. Gentleman to
come and do the work of his office without salary,and
without patronage; he was convinced he :would: be •
tired of it in a week. To assist his case the Hon.
Gentleman instituted a comparison between the Board
of Admiralty and the Board of Ordnance,, But the
Hon. Gentleman, for want of being properly insirircied,
he should rather say, informed, had fallen into a most
wicked error. When he talked of the whole business
of the Navy being conducted by a Board of four
Commissioners, whilst the. Ordnance had five, hid

inefficient securities against defalcation. In ions&
q (mom of this, with a prevoyance which Cliaracterfied
his Grace more than any one a:lttihad preceded l'irh;
,he had done away with all thesb cheeks; sulistitutint
Monthly reports to the Ordnance. Office of Otety
thing, even to a pound of shot, and this on pain of.
instant dismissal. Thus; there were 101 stations in
Great Britain alone, of every one of *hith they hJd
now to pass the accounts, and be in daily correspo4.
dence. Besides all this, they hal the accounts of
the Barracks, of the Store Branch, and.the Building
Branch of the two new services. They"had to attend
to every trifle connected with any of them In anY
part of the Colonies. Thus, theft was an iron steeple
to he built at Trinidaci,'the plan and at rangement
which must go through the Ordnance—(A to
If the Hon. Member for Aberdeen; or any outer
Gentleman would *do all this for honour, Or neithinsei
as they did, and even less, with the 'eduction of t 4
per in their salaries, he should be papa happy
to give him every-facility in his filter., - mucks.
sion, he did not think it
.necessary to most pre:
vious question upon the motion before the" Honse—s
he thought he had shewn sufficient reasons to induce
them to reject it altogether—(Reiterated cheers.)
Mr. WILLIAMS observed, that the speech of the
Honourable Member consisted Chiefly of a charge of
perversion of facts on the pail of his Honourable
Friend, of animadversions on the Report alluded to;
and of a celebration of former victories alleged to
have been obtained by the Honortrable Member,
which lie still remembered with pleasures His Ho-
nourable Friend had founded his motion upon the re•
commendation of the Commissioners Of Military In.
quiry; and, if these Commissioners had been inade-
quate, others should he appointed in their stead. It
had been said, that his HonOurable Friend had perk
verted the evidence taken before that Committees
and in particular the evidence of Lord Chatham;
hut if Lord Chatham spoke of arduous duties as
having to be performed by the Lieutenant-General
of the Ordnance, it was only in the absence of the'
Master-General. It would We trifling with the House
to propose reading over that evidence, as it could
not be completed before midnight. He contended
that the Report, however, was perfectly fair and
specific, and that it bore out the recommendation
of his Honourable Friend; and the chief reason that
it assigned for this was, that the Master-General
should be confined to the duties of his office.—.
That restriction was the ground of the Report of the
;Commissioners—(Hear, hear).--,Why then was it
hot adopted? If this had been done, the expense of
the Lieutenant-General might have been spared. It
was, therefore, not without cause the Honourable
Gentleman opposite (Mr. Ward) found fault with the
construction which his Honourable Friend (Mr. Hume)
had very fairly put upon that Report, when he speaks
of farther inquiry as being necessary ere the office be
abolished. He (Mr. Williams) would pass by the
other parts of the case, because the part which was
the most glaring, was that which, after the recom.
mendation ..f the Commissioners, went to continue
the office of the Lieutenant-General. And this wad
in the very teeth of the House. The office had
been in fact condemned ; and yet, with this condem•
nation, and the continuation of the office before them,
Ministers would tell the House and the country that
they were anxious for retrenchment—(Hear, hear,
hear).—Would any one credit this declaration ? Was
these any precedent for this Ministerial econothy?i-..:
Was the reduction of the violairds of the Admiralty
a voluntary act, or was it not rather the result of their
having been driven from a strong hold? Again,was
any of the Postmasters-General given up voluntarily?
No; every retrenchment that bad been obtained, had
been obtained with difficulty, and every place which
had been given up, had been resigned with retuctanco
—(Hear, hear).—The profession of economy ought,
therefore, to be taken with allowance. He hoped that,
the House would come to a decision upon the opinion
of the Commissioners as stated in the-Report, and not
upon the power and skill of the Hon. Gentleman (Mr.
Ward) as a tactician, although he had been so anxious
to bring the war home to his (Mr. Williams's) Hon.
Friend (Mr. flume). If they should not accede to
the recommendation of his Hon. Friend, then it would
be a warning to the country no longer to rest satis-
fied with professions, but to look to fulfilment. He
was sorry tobave troubled the House at so-great length,
but, in his opinion, the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Ward)
had not met the question—(Hear, hear).
Mr. Secretary CANNING, although he did not
tend to occupy the House at any gteat length, or' fel-
low the Hon. Gentleman Opposite into all the ramifi-
cations of the question, yet, having been on a former
bight called' upon to explain why that office had been
filled tip, having been at that time unprepared to
give an answer to this inquiry—having since paid
every possible attention to it in all its bearings—
having informed himself, and come to a determinate .
conclusion, that a more false, unfounded, or unneces-
sary allegation, never was made, lie could not give a
silent vote upon the question. The Hon. Gentleman
brought forward his charges with every aggravation.
Not only had he said that it was against the recom-
mendation of the Commissioner s of Military Inquiry:—
not only had he described the office as useless—not
only had he attacked the general policy of the ap..
pointment, but he had attacked the individual to
whom it had been given, and the personal motives
for which it had been given. He not only stigma.
tized it- as useless to the Public, bin had stigma.;
tized it for the most corrupt principles, and .the
basest motives—he had stigmatized the Nobleman
on whom the office had been conferred, as wholly
anworthy—(Cries of ho, no ! answered 63( Cheers).
Yes, Ire would, say, that the Noble Lord who had been
appointed to the office, had been desctibed as an-
y of it ; 'for, as if all his skill in his profession_`
as if ail the services: which he bad rendered to his
country had not been enough 'to procure it for him,
it hid been said, that the (slice had been given hint
on account of family connections (Cries of 11'o, no !" ).
The Gentlemen might say 40 No, no," but he would
affirm that such eras, not merely the implied, but the
plain
and-Orplible meaning of the language which
the Hon. Gentleman (Mr. Hume) had Used. The
charge had gone forth to the nOild, balding up this •
appointment as a publicanatversatibst and as priva •
corruption ; and while that stood uneontradictedi ere
Noble Lord on whom the office had been conferred
and,the Government which had conferred it osr4im, ,
would labour tinder that charge w
a chair:l44lk after
the Tiros{ Minute inquiry, was, he oiW ihyy tam_
Yes, he-woUld say that it was false in ores) partictt.

the Hon. Gentleman never heard of the Commis-
sioners of the Navy, of the Victualling Board, of the
Treasurer? Had he never heard of the Outports, with
all which the Admiralty had, nothing to do? Did the
Lords of the Admiralty audit accounts? No, but the
Ordnance did. Were they manufacturers? Did they
cast their cannon or make their gunpowder? Had
they any arsenal at Woolwich, or else-where, of
which to superintend and regulate the operations?
No such work fell to their bands—they made con-
tracts for what they wanted, but that was all !
And all this was suppressed in the Honourable
Gentleman's statement to the House, to purchase, he
was going to say, a ridiculous species of plausibility,
by contrasting the numbers four and five. The same
with regard to the expense of the two Boards. Some
people thought the Lords of the Admiralty under-
paid. Mr. Pitt said, the money-price was nothing—
they were paid in honour, and afterward% in high
commands. But then again, the Hon. Member went
' back to 1792 and 1793,, and talked of a rise in the
salary of the different Officers. Here was another
gross error. Probably he knew not that any rise that
had taken place in the nominal amount of the stipend
had not covered the loss of fees that had Accrued.—

For his part, he spoke feelingly; for at this moment
he received 000 a year less than his predecessor in
1196—(Hear, hear). And he would venture to say he
had ten times as much to do. This proceeded from
the loss of fees. Therefore, as the Hon. Gentleman
wished salaries to return to the rate of 1796, he would
be much obliged to him to persuade the House to
make that arrangement as regarded him (Mr. Ward).
But in 1796 they had no Ireland to deal with. The
Irish Ordnance was an addition of woo men.—
lie need not, however, go any farther in the track of
the Hon. Gentleman. lie had exposed his series of
errors ; he had demonstrated how he had garbled the
Report of the Commissioners, and that their Report
was founded on evidence the reverse of their recom-
mendation. He believed he might consider he had
done enough as regarded the House. But he could
not sit down without giving what be could not but
consider the main argument after all, in answer to
the Report. He put it to the Hon. Mernher if no
change in the state of things had taken place since
the date of that Report ; and if so, how could it apply
to the present case? The Hon. Gentleman had surely
riot forgotten what was his own constant cry left
year? He had never ceased to tell the House to put
this department and that department upon the Ord-
nance. The Ordnance Board, he said, can do more.
His prayer was granted—the Commissariat and Bar-
rack Departments were thrown into the scale; and
what then ? Why the Hon. Member came forward and
said, i 4 Now diminish their strength." It was alarmipg
to see with what unrelenting steps the Hon. Gentle-
man followed up his game. Surely it was deitimc•
lion—it was nothing short of annihilation he was
bent upon. But was the House of Commons to be
dragged along with him in the track Of destruction ?
in that he hoped to see the Hon. Gentleman con-
vinced of his mistake. Had they saved nothing by.
this consolidation of those two Depa:tnients ? It,
was at least 4,5001. a year saved by the arrangement ;
1 and now the Hon. Member had the grace to come,
toward to take 15001. a year from them. An Eng-1
fish House of Commons would not eniure this. Bu-
siOeSS had been greatly enhanced by the excellent-
reguleiions of the Master-General of the Ordnance
with regard to the Colonies. Checks had been es-91-1
t i Wished in different putts abroad, but were found

zj