Star.
London, England, 1807-02-14 00:00:00

[authority from the Fiat ConentiMoners of the dock
yards, and from the principal clerks employed under
them, to declare that no word had been fpoken by
him or them to influence the artificers in giving their
votes. On the contrary, many of them had applied
to him, to know how he flood affefted, and which way
he intended to give his vote ? He anfwered, for his
Hon. Friend; but as he knew that many of them
owed their fituations to the Right Hon Gentleman
oppofite (Mr. Role), he would not with to influence
them by what he meant to do. Here was the autho-
rity of the Firft Commilfioner againft the imputed
interference of Government in the Dock yard. Im.
mediately after the elation, a meeting was held for
the purpofe of getting a Petition againft it ; and the
Petition then produced was different from this ten-
founded charge again ft his Honourable Friend, which
evidently (hewed that at that moment they had not
the fmallefl idea of proceeding in the way they had
now done. His Honourable Friend had juilly (fated,
that out of upwards of 6000 Freeholders, this Petition
was only figned by 112 ; and though he did not
mean to deny the right of thole Gentlemen to peti-
tion, yet he could not help putting it to the feelings
and good fence of the Houle, that if loch inter-
ference and fuch influence had really been ufed, it
would have operated fo much on the indignation of
the mafs of Freeholders, that a far greater number
would unqueltionably have figned it. They might
certainly have found perfons who could have proved
the falls to fign it—perfons who could fhew from
whence the threats and menaces' came. His Hon:
Friend who brought forward the Petition, had him-
felf ufed fusilier threats and menaces on the other
fide, and In had many more. A Magittrate of the
County had accufed him and his Honourable Col-
league of wifhing to introduce into this country the
bloody tyrant who had overrun fo many parts of
Europe. If thofe fats were true, perhaps it would
come our, that this heavy charge againft Govern-
ment osiginated in their own imperative conduit
towards their tenants, and thofe over whom they
had influence of any kind whatever ? He thought,
however, that in whatever temper the Petition or igi-
nated, or from whatever reafons it had been prefent-
ed, it was now necelfary the Houle &mid enter into
a full and fair inveltigation of the fubjeCt. He ad-
verted to the paper which had fir It been read by the
E:onourable Baronet who feconded the motion, and
Paid, that if that minute were not in fait a true copy
of the converfation which had taken place between
him and a Noble Lord—if the Honourable Baronet
(Sir W. Heathcote) timid have admitted this, and
that he could not rely on the accuracy of his me-
mory, but would rather incline to fuppofe that the
after llatement of the Noble Lord was the real bent
of the converfation which took place, he would afk
the Hon. Baronet who feconded the motion, how he
could produce loch a document in fupport of the
charge contained in this Petition, or as that kind of
authority which ought to weigh aga'rilt the chara&er
and honour. of the Government ? Any diliintt mem-
ber of the Government had a right to interfere as an
individual, and it could never have been the intention
of the Legitlature to take away that right ; and cer-
tainly any perfon, however high in office, might fairly
fay which of the candidates had his good wifhes, and
his Honourable Friend had done no more. Magif-
crates might ufe, and fo might Country Gentlemen,
whatever means they pleafed to menace their tenants,
and thole over whom they had authority ; and yet
the molt extraordinary clamour was now railed
againft his Honourable Friend for only conveying
his requelt to General Hewett, to give his intereft to
thole with whom he was nearly conne&ed, and to
whom he wilhed fuccefs. He trufted, therefore, the
Houfe would go with him in laying that this Petition
did not deferve further attention, and that every do-
cument which had been produced fell very fhort
indeed of ettablifhing any well-founded charge of
Government having ufed any undue or improper in-
fluence in the late elation for the county of Hants.
Mr. JEFFRY (of Poole) Paid, that after the bold
affections made by the Secretary of the Treafury that
no influence had been ufed by Government, either in
Hamplhire or in any other place, he could not reft
fatisfied with giving a fluent vote on the queflion, for
fear it might he taken as a fymptom that he affented
to the truth of thofe affertions. He would therefore
requeß the attention of the Houfe till he gave a few
reafons, which came within his own knowledge.
and which in fad related to himfeif, to fhew the
Houfe why he, for one, could not place confidence
in chore affertions. That very Hon. Gentleman, the
Secretary of the Treafury, had openly and plainly
told him, that if he again offered himfelf as a candi.
date for Poole, he muft(iitott cape& the influence of
Government in his favoiet; which he had formerly
experienced, (wattle he had in the let Parliament
oppofed and voted againff the Government—that
they were therefore determined to oppole him. ( Here
Tome murmurs taking place, Mr. Jeffery laid, Nay,
hear me out, I have not half done yet.")—He then
proceeded to fay, that the Secretary of tne Treafury
went on to inform him, that if he perfiffed in (Land-
ing as a Candidate, Government would endeavour
to open the Borough, and cry the right of the Com-
snonalty; which had once before been done without
ace. He Rated farther, that after the fief! Go-
vernment Candidate had tried a canvas, and after-
wards declined the cont4t, it had-been publicly no.
tified that the patronage of Government was to be
given to Michael Angelo Taylor, Efq. Places which
were before promifed to certain perfons, were atuaily
given to others, in order to obtain their fupport of
the Candidate who oppofed him in his native place.
Tittle, and many other intlances of a fintilar kind,
Chewed, beyond contradiaion, that the undue in-
fluence of Government had been exerted—and there-
tore that the Secretary to the Treafury fhould deny
there was any fuch thing, he fhould have thought
impoffible.
Mr. BIDDULPH thought differently from the
Honourable Gentleman (Mr. Herbert) refpating the
decifion *Ouch the Houle timid come to on this Pe-
eitiot. He was not at all acquainted with the rela-
tive fefuation of the perfons concerned—he was nut
conneeed with any party, or biaffed by partiality,
but he confeffed that enough had been Rated by the
Secretary of the Treafury to induce him to think,
that the perfons by whom the Petition was prefented
were entitled to the utmoft attention and refpe& of
Parliament. The Honourable Secretary boldly tie
dared, that the Government, as a Government, had
a right to interfere at etc &ions. Now this appeared
to him very extraordinary doarine ; it was Inch, he

believed, as could not be received in that Houle.—
The Honourable Gentleman had alto fired, that his
fituation was fuch as to make it impollible for the
Government to apply any of the public money to
ele lion purpofes, or to any other improper purpofe,
without his knowledge. Taking this Ratement for
granted, the Hon. Gentleman became, therefore, a
greater object of jealoufy and fufpicion, for the more
important and c,.nfidential was his troll, the greater
weight muff his application, in an official form, carry
with it. From this view of the fuhjee, he was of
opinion that the petition was entitled to the confide•
ration of the Houle.

Mr. FREEMANTLE explained, and reminded
the Hon. Member, that his argument went to prove
that the Government, in their individual capacity,
were not divefted of their rights as Englilhmen, in
confequence of holding an official flotation.
Mr. JENKINSON did not rife with a view of en•
tering into the fubjed of debate, but merely to Rate
that -he was one of thofe againtl whom the limits rf
power had been ineftednally levelled. He had the
honour of reprefenting Dover, at the eleAion of
which every influence which the agents of Govern-
ment could pradife was refroted to. Here the Ho.
nourable Member •intianced fome menaces with re-
fped to the lots of fituations in the Vidtualling 1)e-
-partment, if the perfons holding them did not vote
for tke Miniflerial Candidate ; and concluded with
giving his opinion, that the Petition fhould be enter-
tained by the Honk.
Mr. TIERNEY had to thank the Hon. Gentle.
man who propofed the quellinn, and alto the Ho-
nourable Baronet who feconded it, for the feveral do-
cuments which they produced and read ; for, as the
cafe now Rood before the Houle, Gentlemen were
acquainted wirh all the papers and information which
could be referred to the Committee of Privileges :
being capable ofexerciling its judgment on what was
read, he did not think that the Houle would come to
the refulution of referring this cafe to a Committee.
What would be the objed of fuch a proceeding ?
Unquefirmably to inveltigate the charges contained
in the Petition, and to examine the proofs on which
it was founded. But the nature of the prefent cafe
did not make this formality requifite ; the whole re-
folved itfelf into one charge, which, he was certain,
the Houle mull confider unfupported by any thing
which appeared in the Shape of evidence or argument.
As to the Petitioners, he mutt fay, that it was unufual
for Members of Parliament to fign any thing of the
kind, becanfe they would have a full opportunity of
expreffing their opinions on it in Parliament. It
Ihould be liken ife obferved, that if a Member of Par-
liament knows of any breach of privilege, it is his
duty to communicate it as loon as poffible. The
Hoe.: was fo jealous of its privileges, that the con-
federation of any of them would take precedence of
his Majelly's Speech to Parliament. Not withftand-
ing all this facility which would he given, and al-
though a Petition had been prepared two months ago,
yet it was potiponed to the relent time ; and even
now it was not that Petition which was prefented, but
another drawn upon the fpur of the moment, con•
raining only one charge, and that again(' his Ho•
nourable Friend (Mr. Freemantle.) The fall con.
rained a general charge of undue influence again('
Government, and was therefore deemed wrong; but
the Petition now prefented was a right one, becaufc
it contained only one charge againll an individual
conneded with Government. He ()Nerved the name
of a Member of that Hence fubfcribed to iz, brit he
really believed that tf the Hon. Member (Mr. Dent)
was in his place, he would acknowledge that he had
fubfcribed what he was ignorant of. He was at a lots
for the reafon which could induce an Honourable
Member (Mr. Jeffer ) to bring a charoeagainli ano-
ther Member ( Mr. Michael Angelo Taylor) in his
ablence. He never heard fuch improper language,
not only from one Member to another, but from one
Gentleman to another.—[Order,•Order, ! from tir.
FELLOWES, who raid, he never heard loch unparlia-
mentary language during the time he held a teat in
the Houk, as that ufed by the Right Honourable
Gentleman, who teemed inclined to provoke the par-
ties to Shoot each other try of Hear, Hear! and
Order, Order l followed ]
Mr. SPEAKER. thought that it would be more
•regular if the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Tierney) had not ufed the lag expreffions.
Mr. TIERNEY begged pardon of the Houle, and
allured the Honourable Gentleman who called him
order, that he had not any fuels intention as that
to which he afcribed to him in the ufe rf thofe ob-
jedlionable words. He trufled that the Houfe would
not fuppufe he Wri influenced by any Such motive.
His Honourable Friend (Mr. Taylor) was brought
into one (*crape already, and furely it was not his with
to bring him into one fill more fetious. He could
oot refrain from obferving, that it was extraordinary,
in the Search of the Honourable Gentlemen for pre-
cedents, they could only snake out this one charge;
and what did that amount to ? To this merely, that
his Honourable Friend's letter was dated from the
Treafury; this was the whole offence. if he had the
experience of an old Treafury praetitioner he would
have dated it from his houfe in Stanhope.lbeet,which
would have faired him, and the petitioners the trouble-
of propofing and making it. But the words Treafury
Chambers imported, at prefent, fomething fo terrible
as to make the Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
G. Rote) quite aghaft —(Great laughter.)—He would
a& Gentlemen on the other tide, whether any ad-
vantage refulted to his Hon. Friend from the appli-
cation made to General Hewett for his interell ? N ne
whatever—for, although the felicitation had pro-
cured a debate, it did not appear that it had the
effed of procuring a tingle vote. Suppofing that
the Houk refolved to go into a Committee of Privi-
leges, what more could be fubmitted to the Houle
than it is informed of at prefent ? General Hewett
may be examined at the Bar ; but what could that
produce ? If you afked with the utmoft formality
whether he received the letter, which was read that
night, he would anfwer that he had, and that it was
.ttte identical original. What greater light could that
Itatement throw upon the fubjedl than the Hoofe was
pained of already ? He conceived that it would be
trifling-with the dignity of the time of Parliament to
go into a Committee on this unfounded and paltry
charge, which no Oppofition but the prefent would
exhibit 4 there .might, however, be fome exenfe for
fuels condo& Perhaps the Right Hon. Gentleman,
(Mr.Rofe) knowing the ufe which had been formerly
made of toe iVuence of Govern:nen., at timed that
it might have wren tarteifed on the occafion alluded

to by the relent Government. Although Gentlemen
may make large afTertions, yet it did not follow that
the Houfe fhould receive them ;—he put it fairly,
whether charges of this kind, which had been circu-
lated with all poflible indultry and malice, did not
raife, inflead of lowering the Goverr, (Hear,
kror,from the 2llirillerial &Reins.) If the Houle fhotild
refolve to go into a Cimmittee, it would he wafting its
time On one of the moll extraordinary .4:,(1 toihlh pe-
titions ever prefented. It was, in (aft, the of
7 or 8 Members to thcm'elves ; for as to the nth r
lubfcribers, though he knew moll of the re(penable
people of Hampthire, he conk nut fay that he had
the honour of knowing any of there lubferibers. The
truth was, that the Oppoiiiion bad mantifaelured this
petition, and refolved to ,:nth it to the uttnoti extent ;
—but he did not thitik that they could take ro them.
felves any great (hart of credit for their maoagement,.
or for this fample ot maoutaatite. It may b• expec-
ted, however. that the Right Honourable Gentleman
( Mr. Role) though appearances were dircourariog at
preterit, might rife in z few y:ars to an cirri:a nce on
the Oppofition Benches (a cry if Scar, Lear, and great
laughing.) But toppofing that the kind of i..fl.iebee
formerly exercifed with ruccefsagainll bis Hon Frit :Id
(Mr. Jervi- ), had now turned Out Mt. Chute, furely
the fituation of the one would not be wince th.n that
of the other. At all events, it Friuli excite di it,
to fee this petition brought forward from filch a
quarter.

- Mr. CANNING hoped the Right Han. Gentle-
man would ailow him to quality his alit:nit:intent by
faying, that the furprize and difgult of the country
mutt arife at the oppofition of the Right Hon. Gen-,
tleman and his colleagues to the further hearing of
this petition. Fortunately for the empire, the Right
Hon. Gentleman and the other fuppor ters of Paiiia.
mentary Reform had come into office, but being
once veiled with power, and holding a high fituation,
the notions of the Right lion. Gentleman were fud-
denly altered. What was the firit proof which he
gave of his idea of reform ? That all the principles
and praCtices which he formerly cenfured and repro-
bated, fhould not•be wholly removed, but ufed again ft
thofe who had themfelves when in power endeavoured
to ptaftife them : his only ambition feemcd to be,
ro have the fati.faCtion of retorting upon preceding
Adniinittrations the abufes which they might have
had encouraged, but which the Right Honcurable
Gentleman, at the time to which he alluded, had
condemned with the grea'ett violence, as lubvelfive
of the Contiituti to of the country. The Right Ho.
nourable Gentleman gave a proof of his fyflem of
purity by (lacing. that he did not think it a crime
for the Secretary of the Treafury to folicit, with
every appearance that was official, the head of the
Barrack Department in Hampthire. He did not
mean to fay that there was any proof of guilt efla.
blifled, but rarely there was good ground for en-
tertaining fufpicion of the Secretary. He agreed
with the Honourable Gentleman, that his cfficial
fituation did not diveß bim of his civil or politi-
cal rights. But, though he acknowledged this ge-
neral propofition, yet he conceived it neceffary in
:.im to exercife thofe rights in certain cafes with
cautioft. Suppofing that the Petition did not con-
tain as much evidence as it did. of the influence,
or imputed influence, for the fake of the argu.
men(, yet as it was prcfented by one Honourable
Member, and feconded by an4ther, he conceived that
it fhould not be rejected without further confider.
/at i an. The Right Honourable Gentleman (Mr.
Tierney) juttified its rejeaion, by adducing
lar abodes formerly prafhled ; his argument went to
prove that one Government thould make reisrifals, as
it were, upnn another ; for he Rated in lobo:ince,
that Mr. Chute had been defeated and turned out of
his feat by the abufes which had been praCtifed in the
fame place by preceding Governments. This was a
terrible denunciation againft the County of Hants;
for, granting that the EleCtors of every other county
may obtain redrefs, yet the Electors of Hampfhire
are to endure the exiftence of abufes for ever walnut
a hope of redrefs ; in fait, they were to be told, that
baking been in the habit, under eve; y change of Go-
vernment, to fee their favourite Candidate removed
by Court influence and Minifterial intrigue, they have
no right to complain; that the prefent Government
has as good a right to teak to thole praelices as any
that went before it, and, of courfe, that the EleCtors
Imutt bear the confequences. There was this pecu.
liarity attached to the cafe of Hampfhire, namely,
that it was the undue influence of the Government
exercifed at a General Elettion, which canted the
Refolutions now entered on the Journals againft Inc
praftices in future. The Right Hon. Gentleman,
confirmation of what he advanced on this point, read
the letter of the Duke of Chandos, on which the Re.
folution of the Houfe was founded, and concluded
with expreffing a hope, that although the Petition
was not manufaenred to the taite of Minifters, yet
that it might be fuffered to go to a Committee.
Mr. ADAM contended, that the fituatioo Mr.
Freemantle held as Secretary of the Treafury, did
not preclude hint from interfering, like any other in-
dividual, in a matter with relpeet to which be felt
himfelf ir,tereuled.

Lord FOLKSTONE confidered, that the Hon.
Secretary had fufficiently explained the exprelflon he
had made ufe of. He however thought, that as he
had written only to a Public Department to influence
the votes in that department, acd not to General
Hewett to exert his influence generally with the
Gentlemen of his acquaintance, the letter mutt be
confidered as an official letter, and not merely as the
a& of an individual, fpringiog from private friendfLip.
He had indulged a hope that Gosernment would, in
fupport of their own character, and of that continency
wh;ch they had boalled fo much of, not reject As
pretent l'etiiion. Under 111 the circumUnces of the
cafe, he thought the allegations of the Petition were
fuch as ought to be referred to a Committee of Pri.
viieges.
Mr. JOHNSTONE obferved, that no pet fon could
believe the Hon. Secretary had Interfered in his indt-

vidual capacity. He exp;effed his difapprobatk;;:
the circumftance of wri ing the words, "On his 7k. •
fervice," upon the letters which were tranfmit •
ted in order to influence thofe who were dependent
upon Government. He gated that letters had not
only been circulated in Hampfhire, but notorioullt
in many other counties. He had a letter which had
been fent into Yorkfhire, and had be been aware of
the debate coming forward, he fhould have brottalt
it with him..
I Mr. BATHIIRST defended tl,eondtrit ct the