Star.
London, England, 1831-09-30 00:00:00

I utgh, is cause the burgesses of Edinburgh no more chose
them than did the people of Constantinople—they wen
chosen by perhaps the oily persons in the whole city who
' had not signed the present petition. But how many pare
sons did their Lordships suppose they were acme Per.
adventure a thousand—no—not so much !—by e hundred P
Not so much ! Not by a hundred or even half a humbug
but by—three and thirty persons—well messing, naelonbt
—but no more than Thirty-Three!—(Hear, herarphear.) -
But if this should be the case, with-Edinburgh, these were
other parts of Scotland. which under this time-honouted sys.
tens, which he was in hopes was now about drawing to its
final termination—which by this legacy of ohlen time, but
which was one of the wont legacies that could have been be-
queathed to us by throe who lived in the childhood of the
human race, and before experience had made it as wise as
the present—there were other parts of Scotland, he would
repeat, that were in a much worse condition than Edinburgh.
( Hear, hear.) He need not remind their lordships that over
the whole of Scotland Mere was no such thing knswn as po.
::tilar representation. All was close—the !somber, were not
elected by the proprietor. of the land. but by persons who
probably had not an acre—they wets elected by the holders
uf what were called ruperinritics. (Loud cries of hear,
hear, bear.) Totem noble personages who were the advo-
cates of such a system as this would have an opportunity of
arguing upon its efficacy, and stating the grounds on which
they supported it on Monday and Tuesday next—aye, and
a great many more days than Monday and Tuesday—for they
were oat sufficient to support by advocacy such a disgraceful
and abominable system. On Monday the subject would be
entered upon, and he should cone nd that the people of
Scotland bud as much right to get rid of their close boroughs
as England had to get rid of the Members for Old Sarum
and Gatton.
Lord W HARNCLIFFE begged to say that in the vote
which lie should give on tile second reading of the Reform
Rill, he would not refer to the repre.entation of Scotland.
Hefelt no hesitation in saying that the stairs of representa-
tion in Scotland required Reform. (Hear.) If they rejected
the .a.sfbem Rill, it was net to be inferred from thence that
they objected to amend the representation ; but, bad as the
represenuitien of Scotland was, Scotland prospered under it,
although it might ba said that it was hi spite of the repre-
sentative system.
The LORD CHANCELLOR did not know why Edin.
burgh and the Isle of Bute should be interfered with, If Old
Strum and Gatton was left untouched, for the rights of
Scotch burghs were as mend as those of the English rotten
boroughs. lie repeated that if a Reform was to take place
in Scotland, on a similar principle a Reform should take
place in the English constituency.
Lord WHARNCLIFFE repeated that Scotland was a
place where Reform was necessary. He did not say that the
e'ective system of England did nos require to be amended...a.
(Hear )
The Earl of CAM PERDOWN thought that nothing
equld be worse than the Scotch representation. Whatever
Scotland gained or lost by the nuke with England, she
gained the advantage of the English system of representa-
tion. He was satisfied that a worse system than the Scotch
system of representation could not exist.
Lord MELVILLE rose to protest against his noble
friend (Lord Wharneliffe) being called upon to express his
sen iments on the question of reform before Monday. He
thought that they should have the three reform bills berme
them, at once. When the Scotch reform bill came before
' them he would be prepared to express his sentiments on
it, but he protested against confounding the Scotch bill
with the English bilL With respect to the petition in
question, he begged to say that the noble and learned
lord was in error in his calculation respecting tie population
of that city.
The Earl of CARNARVON considered the present dis-
cussion premature. If this petition was for reform in Scot-
land, it should not be received, for that bill was not before
the house. If it was in favour of reform in general, it
was a differ/so thing. He protested against the discussion
of reform at this period.
The petition was then ordered to lie on the table.
THE CITY OT LONDON rteertow.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then presented a petition
to the same effect fawn the corporation of the city of Lon-
don, observing that this petition came from the Mayor, Al.
dermcn, and Common Council, tiding in their corporate
capacity. It strongly urged their Lordships to pass the
measure of Reform now before them. He took that oppor-
tunity
of saying that he did not ask his Noble Friend (Lord
Wbarncliffe) for his opinion respecting Reform, as the liable
Viscount (Melville) seemed to think. His Noble Friend
volunteered to give hie opinion. It would not satisfy the
people of England to give Reform to Scotland, if Old Sarum
and Gatton remained untouched. (Hear.) Now, he ad-
mitted that, notwithstanding the bad system of representation
which prevailed throughout the realm, Scotland and England
flourished. The perennial delays in the Court of Chancery
flourished. (Laughter.) Ireland flourished before Eman-
cipation was granted, but he would not hesitate to say
that the refusal of Reform would be to him, and to
every lover of his country, a subject of the deepest re-
gret. (Hear.)
Lord. %V YN FORD would not hesitate to say that he 'ite-
rated the present system of representation to the amend-
ment proposed by the measure before the House, which he
considered destructive of the Constitution and the liberty
of the people, and of the independence of Puliament.—.
He would give his support to a mature which appeared
to him to be cotsistent with the principles of the constitu-
tion. The present Bill began with the destruction of Old
Serum. His Noble and Learned Friend (the Lord Chan-
cellor) bad once In contemplation a measure which had not
for its object the destruction of any borough.—(Hear.)—
He felt convinced that those who thought with him
would satisfy the House that the present measure was not
-conducive to, but subversive of the best Interests of the
coontry.—(llear, hear.)
Lead HOLLAND deprecated the allusion meek by the
noble and learned lord to the former sentiments of the noble
and Lamed lord on the Woolsack. Let noble lords reflect
on what would be the consequences throughout the coun.
try if they blinded and stupidly rejected a measure on
which the country had fixed their minds. Every noble
lord who expressed his sentiments on this subject was
anxious to appear a Reformer to a certain degree. It was
rather singular that, up to the eleventh hour, they never
thought of any measure to which they could agree, even
as yet they had not told the House what system of Reform
they approved of; though now it was too late for them to
°the any measure of their own to the House. They had
the admission of one of the ablest opponents of' this mea-
sure (Lord Wharneliffe) that the system of .reprecentation
in Scotland was so detective that It required reform ; this
skewed that he was nut attached to antiquity as to oppose
all Reform. (Hear, hear, hear.) lie head what he
heard to-night es a happy omen that they had not to
contend with Anti-reformers, but with persons who were
Reformers in degree.
Lord WH AR CLIFFS explained. and the petition was

laid on the table.
The LORD CHANCELLOR then presented a third
petition from the Lord Mayor of London and Livery in
Common Hall assembled, praying their Lordships to pin
die Reform Bill. The noble and learned lord gave the rea-
sons why he did not adopt the mesArre alluded to by his no.
Ask friend. %Visas bin amble end learned friend seediest Ills ,
young ambition, and obtained the Great Seal, ha ;Wald say
to item, Goo speed ye—l will give you all the assistance I
can—you have come to the Great Nat *pen /sly plan of
parliamentary reform, and pray make good your Impair& ,
forms." (Laughter.) The question wouldemne under eon.
sideration on Monday ; their lordships would then not forget
that the people looked up to them as guardians of their rights
and privileges ; and he would only mid, never did that house
stand upon a subject of greater importance than they did on
that occasion.

-- ---
Lord IVY N FORD explained.
JELGIUX.

The Marquis of LON DONDERRI , in the absence of
the noble earl at the head of the Government, would not
have troubled their Lordships with the question tektite to
Belgium and the employment of the French officers at pre-
sent in that country, ;vete he not deeply impressed with
the importance of the subject, and did he not see a Noble
Lord opposite (the Secretary for the Colonies) who, being
a coadjutor of that Noble Earl, must, necessarily, be ac-
quainted with the foreign policy at present pursued by the
Ministers of the Crown. He should take the liberty of call-
ing the attention of their Lordships to precedents in former
Ministers, where minute quettions the foreign
relations of England had been put by the late fir. Tierney
and others, and were satisfactorily answered. He trusted a
similar course would be pursued on the
,present occasion.
With respect to the affairs of Belgium he was informed that
no time was fixed for the departure of the %tacit Weeps
the residence cf the French officers in Belgium he.consldered
as disgusting and insidious. He should like to ask a noble
friend of his, who was at the bead of the POtospldw•aslsty
at one time, if that army was not in consequence almost
considered an English army ? It appeared to him that
France was no sooner driven out of one fastness than the
wily politician who governed that country crept into another.

The Noble Marquis then read a variety of extracts NM the
correspondence of the Secretary of State of the period at
which the Belgic fortresses were erected, to chew that
Holland had a clear right and interest in their tuntraran
don, in order at France might not overrun d.
When he read that wornspondenee, he confessed be could
not help feeling iodignant as an Englishalaa• It was s.
ease of BO much importance that be hoped, for the ho-
ttest' of the
the
information would be 'ended,
specially as the disposal of the French army ;
the best way treating with which, he was of opinion,
would be to keep •tbiar-eivilly at errata's length. The
mum in which negotiations and conferences took place,
with that diplomatist, of whom be (Lord London-
deny) had spoken pretty strongly, was perfectly dis-
gusting. Ministers want and consulted him from day
to day, and despatches from the King's table were laid
before him. Such things, he could assure their Lord-
were much talked of out of doors, and tended to have
an injurious of upon the honour of the country.—
Should any of his noble friends behind him at some future
period hold the pore feuille at the Foreign Office, he should
be extremely glad to see certain papers and copies of confe-
rences relative to the negotiations carried on between this
country and the governments of France and Belgium ; espe-
cially he should like to see the copy of a private letter ad.
dressed some time ago toCasimer Perier,the French minister.
which might throw a satisfactory light upon these matters, of
which no information whatever had yet been given by his Ma.
jesty's Government. lie should conclude by moving that an
humble address be presented to his Majesty, praying that
there be laid before that house copies or extracts of
all correspondence which had recently taken place between
the Governments of France and Belgium and this country,
relative to the employment of the officers in the French army
now in Belgium, for the avowed purpose of discipline and
disorganisation.
Viscount GOD RID CH complained of the Inconvenience
which arose from such questions' being put at the present
moment. His Majesty's present Ministers could not be
'chargeable with the present state of the foreign policy of
England. With respect to what the Noble Marquis had
said relative to Prince T..ileyrand, to say the least of it, that'
language was exceedingly imprudent as applied to the Am-
bassador of France, or the Minister of any foreign power at
peace with England.—( Hear.) A very few words would
suffice regarding the immediate point of the Noble Marquis's
observation., nothing was more common than to see foreign
officers in the armies of other nations ; both Germans and
Swim were to be found in the armies of Prussia at the pre.
sent moment, and he believed that General Chasse himself
was a Frenchman.—(Hear.)
The' Marquis of LONDONDERRY rose to order;
he complained that a Noble Lord was making suggestions
to the Noble Viscount who was addressing the House. .
The LORD CHANCELLOR said, he would not aft in
his place as a Minister of the Crown, and be bothered with
the confused ideas of any Noble Par; he should be ready
to defend himself against any motion of censure.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY enquired U it were
in order for any Noble Lord to prompt another during his
address to the House.

The LORD CHANCELLOR said, suclta line of con-
duct was as strictly oat of order as 99 things oat of a hun-
dred which were donq In their Lordships' House eeety day,
and which were suffered from courtesy.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY said, the noble and
learned lord had made use of words in that House which he
would not make use of elsewhere.
The Duke of RICHMOND moved that the words of
the noble marquis be taken down.
Lord HOLLAND rose to order.
At the suggestion of the LORD CHANCELLOR the
motion of the noble duke was withdrawn. The noble and
learned lord hid made use of no expressions in that House
which he would not again repeat in that House or elaewhere.
The Duke of WELLINGTON was of opinion that King
Leopold would best maintain an independent government
by remaining neutral. With respect to the circumstance of
foreign officers serving in the armies of other countries, such
a course was not adopted in England ; the officers were
looked upon at the soul of the troops, hence no foreign officer
had command In the English army ; and a similar regulation
ought to be adhered to as regarded Belgium. He denied
,hat the King of Belgium was an independent Sove-
reign. Could he be called independent with 12,009 foreign
I troops quartered in his country ? Could he be called inde-
pendent when his power was guaranteed to him by other
Sovereigns ? The noble duke concluded by observing, that
he could not too strongly condemn the principle of the Bel-
gium ann being officered by Frenchmen.
LordHOLLAND defended the character of Prince
Talleyrand from the unjust aspersion which had been east
upon it, with respect to the question before the house. He)
(Lord Holland) saw no reason whatever for this country
interfering with the King of Belgium for selecting foreign
officers to his army; Portugal had done the same thing; be
said nothing of the propriety or impropriety of the matter,
all he meant to argue was, that England had no right to in-
terfere. Unfortunately, the King of Belgium was in anther
awkward situation; with preparations for war in Holland,
and a disorganised army at home, It was not astonishing
that the King of Belgium adopted whatever means were in
his power to make his army perfect. Were the principle of
interference acted spots in the present instance, theft was no
knowing where it would end.
After a few words from Lord ORFORD,
The LORD CHANCELLOR should object to the pro-
duction of the papers if they really did exist; be adopted
that line of conduct in consequence of the delicate nature of
the question involved in the motion of the Noble Marquis.
He (the Lord Chancellor) offered no opinion ale way or
another on the propriety or impropriety of the arrangsepents
adopted by King Leopold as respected the of of die
French army at present in Belgium.
The Marquis of LONDONDERRY than withdrew hi&
motion, observing that if the Noble and Learned Lord on
the Woolsack would in future abstain from any attacks upon
him (Lard Londonderry) he should be the last am in their
Lordship's Hours to give his Majesty's Dentition unnsees-
, eery trouble.
I The LORD CHANCELLOR, with much apparent
good humour, replied, that he should be happy to sign a '
treaty of peace with the Noble Marquis for the remainder
of the Session.—(Laughter.)
I _ GANZ BILL.

On the motion of the Duke of RICHMOND the Game
Bill vu read a third time and passed.
The other Bills on their Lordships' table were forwarded
the respective stages, and the Hpuse adjourned.

HOUSE OF COMMONS.

DCRILIR ROYAL SOCIETY.
Mr. CRAMPTON presented a petition from the Royal
Society of Dublin, complaining of the reduction of their par.
Momentary grant from 7,0001. to 5,4001. They urged' that
they had entered into the various and usual engagements for
the year, before they were aware that this reduction eras
contemplated ; and bat therefore this reduction, if
would be productive of the greatest inconvenience. aireecti;
on the history and merits of the society, and on its market%
sepsratien ftOm any thing like political affairs. There was
a charge of the society being %exclusive '•" but be &Wild
that such charge was, well founded, and htuply toinitWaJoc
..atuidesal .that..l4toisout..Coballa was Awl
muster of the press. • Trout all discussion* political mit.
tees had been, and were, excluded. TN, petitiesses
that the house would institute inquiries into the t=t
against the society, previously to finally sanctioning the re-
* dual= of this grant.
Mr. LEADER observed, that while this grant was re.
dueled, the estimates for the British Museum, &e. remained
undiminished, and yet this grant was trifling compared with
some of them.

Mr. LEFROY submitted that the Government ought to
have instituted inquiry, before the reduction of the grant
wu proposed, and he hoped that it wu not too late for
the Government to retrace its steps.
Colonel CHAPhIAN thought that the Government had
acted wisely In redstabog this grant; it had never realised
the expectation folioed. He instanced that the society
collected extensive specimens of mineralogy—but they had
never yet been
Mr. RUTHVEN regretted this reduction wu adopted :
It nest tend most seriously to injure the society.
Lord INGESTRIE supported the prayer of the petition.
'Do osciaty bed boon mom useful to Leland, and was eaL
Wad to is man gotfuL
lift R. RATTAN:IN said that the grant could not be sain-
thood, except by those who were friends to the repeal of din
Gam, and maintained that such a paltry reducing os
°Who sanctioned by coldadooded economists.
Mr. HU3IE was astonished at the course pungens
dinusion I the reduction was not recommends‘hpingli
binds* semssenists, but by • Committee of that Boon Ina
idnitogsly adopted, of which Lord L. Gown was Anima
and Mr. Dawson was a member. Inland had
to this society bOOL or OWL a year; the pmnampt
wanted for many years between 1001. and CM.
This teduction was not pitiful saving, but wise diminution
of public burthens. There was no pound for charge against

the present m "isteri. The reduction was the result of the
recommendation o 7 a Committee which he had described.
He considered that the reduction was perfectly right.
Mr. H. ORATTAN said it was miserable for any
Society like the one tow mentioned to be thus thrown on
the evathy of others. What Society ever flourished with
any such syntgathy 11 He would have it rely on its own
peat principles, and its own resources ; and he doubted not
that, in spite of melancholy predictions, the Society would
cenththe to Sourish.
___ . . .

Colo'nel CONOLLY was desirous that the grant should
be continued; it was most important to a country where it
was desirable to civilise every part of society. Natural
history might be ridiculed, but there was no country in
the world where the study of it was so so important as
to Ireland. The number of absentees gave the Society a
claim on this country.
Mr. BUNT thought this reduction was very niggardly;
it was unworthy of the Government ; and he was sorry
that a most 'ireful institution was to have its grant so nig.
gartlly reduced.
Mr. M. O'CONNELL observed, that the object of the
Parliamentary Committee was to put this Society on a useful
footing. Members had opposed a more useful grant—that
to Alaynooth ; and yet they supported the reduction of this
grant. He knew the fact of persons having been rejected on
political grounds ; it had shown influence in the raw of the
lion. Member for Kerry. (Hear.) The Government was
more than liberal in continuing the amount now given. On
the grants to professors for English Universities, the Hon.
Member for Preston asked, were the weavers of Preston to
contribute to the education of the sons of noblemen; and
yet here be was desirous that the weavers should be taxed—
he was against the reduction of the grant; this showed by
what consistent principles the Hon. Member was actuatW.
(Hear.).
Mr. HUNT raid he had oppposed that grant.
Mr. CRAMPTON said, that the Irish Museum had been
visited by 30,000 pertions lase year; and 'that thire was no
instance of perannahatring been rejected from the library.
Sir R. BATEBON salt he disapproved of the reduction,
come from what party it might.
Petition ordered to lie on the table.

BOARD Or CONTIOUL.
• Mr. STUART WORTLEY brought forward his mo.
don respecting the reduction of the gaiety of the Presi-
dent of the Board of Controul. He considered that the
reduction had been made hastily. It was recommended
by a Committee, but that was not sufficient ; the Go-
vernment ought first to have ascertained that the recom-
mendation proceeded on adequate grounds. In the re.
port, the Committee hail not condescended to assign any
grounds for the recommendation; then why was the re-
duction urged ? The Committee named in one sentence that
it was expedient to reduce the salary—they named the
suns—and that sum was proposed by the Government instead
of the previous salary. It was true, that the President of
the Board of Controul bad not so much to do in that House
as some other Members of the Government; but was there
no responsibility attached to the office ? and was it nothing
to shut out a man from the laudable ol*.m of ambition,
and to be stationed', in an office which afforded few oppor-
tunities for display In that House ? The salary was re-
duced to what it had formerly been; that was the only
reason he could learn for its reduction, and that be had
ascertained Brom the Member for Middlesex. But
if no better reason could be assigned, he did know
why all salaries might not be reduced on as cogent
reasons.—(Hear, hear.) The office arose out of the eele.
bested India Bill; and sines that period there bad been a
vast Joann ofour territories in India, and consequently great
addition to the labours of the office. In 1810 the salary
was raised from 1,5001. to 5,0001; if there were ground
for the advance—thee being accession of territory and of
duty—he maintained that there was no ground for reducing
the salary at this particular moment. The increase of duty
and responsibility continued, but the salary was to be re-
duced without neighs( for it any motive whatever. He
enumerated the incensed duties of the office, owing to the
increase of revelation-el labour tesulting from the fanning of
the land revenues, &e. and of the increased number of civil
servants and natives engaged. Having dwelt on the increase
of labour occasioned by the management of the land reve-
nues and the civil servants, European and native, be spoke
of the increase el the army; which also augmented the du.
ties of the office. An LOUD'S= number of documents went
through the when be was at the Board he had one case
that consisted of WM bile pages. The most assiduous
attendee was regime se doe pan of the president. He sub-
mitted that it was an peaky to reduce this office, the pro-
baMe Abet of whilph be to reduce it In the scale of
offices; and was eliet where there was stomach duty,
so 'much office was now in an uS
t state • Valimey reduced the salary, as was now pro-
pelled, tbs; wadi run the risk of impairing the efficiescy
of the ellso. Beeides, if the salary were reduced, it would be
of no afftnetege to the revenues of this country; the say-
ing veil boast the revenues of India ; but by the saving
its bad would impair the efficiency and cha-
racter of . The reduction was unjust, as being
greater than eat extended to the salaries of other Members I
of the Goveneisat. He trusted that the House in this in.
stance wadi an smedoe the recommendadon of the Com-

nittee onYpylik sands& It win unwise. He coodeded
with movies a min of resolutions, declaratory that the sa-
lary in IRO was mimed to 5,4001; that the business of the
Bad of Contrive* had greatly increased ; and that it was,
therefore, inexpedient to reduce the salary of its President
to VON.
Mr. GRANT said, he considered details in reply were
an , became be west view this question as already
settled. ltie Govors...mt. he must meanie, had not blindly
adopted the reesenmembion tithe committee; and he must
also assume that
.biostidemondlation of the committee was'
Waded I pterlsos - hospdry. He was not disposed
is mopes the isseelokSid ho was the men
_pootleslsely
mimed la diettommi, Remo whether the sednoden were
yin er unwise, the .olioirmiset CUM Enke reimmeidendots
In loos than rye Isms. Mims, thereby, wpm &to let
the queasiest roe io its plasm ease ow time ssesses, sad
frau the married en OM dot time Is the tab* mold set
lead to the Whilemt 11 would psoduse say eidersda of
the Nome so orsidesipensioes the its.. (gem)
Mr. ZUTIIVIN was astsoldisd at the row mods. g
surely 1411. a day was mime* sem! lee Its Prealesst
of this limed. The reductios woe most
Ws O. WAftgitlfDlLlt was of that the salary
of ihafiL was toe moth but he &Might k bad now
been Musa too law. _ _

Mr. C. FIROUSON said that the Ake ought to be
madrworth acceptasce. and so as to prevent its pos-
sessor front looking to higher °floe for adequate rem.
noraties..• (Boar, boar.) He thought, however. that this
riiliwoad be MOPS properly brought forward on
p!spositisn kr die renewal of the charter. The Ron.
Gehtionimaild that the Med of Crouronl could torte be
expocsed to et Us Amy to lad* maser h were placed on a
footing anconsocsed with *Attica' inhume.
ROBINSON said. that if the Hot?' complied with
- President

in the flommitie, as hi -Mei& thaiirars at too large a
wale; end be bepal,befeee any perineum rale was adopted,
that these redulloosese would be revised and emeedea
Mr. P. COURTNEY said, the radocsisos bed been very
talbeimilly mods, sod without prow isaimiption. If it
were die opiates of hie Majesty% Olivermasat that these
salaries were sollicient, they ought to addeas his Majesty,
praying him sot to appoint any one to Alm who .was not
hero to ample benditay property. The realms that bad
adduced for naloodoo- of the galaxies were to him its.
ANN why ihal ought to lane been increased. He would
NCthe motion.
ALTHORP add, in defame of the Ministry re-
dacts( Wade', that the measure had been adopted, net so
much ham a movictioo that many of the Alain were our-
uld, se that Aare was necessity for retrenishimen ; and die
lemmata of the page was, that unseen wow weeildil,
He aelawle.pd that public Aare should be wennitialid,
hut he lams, undaped tbSi MO COI would, Mime aims
Awthart.waa SIO
uhtismitlro wM theisptddlo,
maim" ; to b ears
21;ywhoutadhated
4' Hit ammo he waist *miss it
twee 'brim is Ms.
ellarge of dr
• Sir ro themsa. übe thought
the selary.of the tie Dead was
Sit A. SAE fat is had =grebes
of the Coundttee, aid *lasi. ammo Olt. MOW that the

fa as a
ip
of of-

tbeeriludes Palau* et ski Beek et Cm.
164 say moreighomes wry the east pinciple into the
he gimme dlhis, lad totals than at them original
gwalltkoklimiwrd mid he memidered
t= - De. beam
411.11, and he had i• es.
Us sisals to inipery • hr carrying the
teemmommloilom of the Committee late Abet.
IRVING bad opposed des mogratisas d reketin
.Jll. .